From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 04:51:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80612B1AF9 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:51:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05olkn2023.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.92.91.23]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "GlobalSign Organization Validation CA - SHA256 - G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490K8Y3pn2z4c1p for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:51:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bourne.identity@hotmail.com) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Vo/GMpV1QFtVe3UYnXrFmPKXP+O2bC7yQcNZgXgfc7WoVA9/c0Vt38NBW3cwMDscP4m/zBkgq2l2iEdRaMsrfL1ULfO+pEAwljAiDrDaiBuuasDDltqJDybLH3DIARtADI3fq6nOffYNJLArQkc0HdLKhGkmqJv/HjAojwC+SGLohAyd9WfPZ0cuZBL4f0X6i+iMsc5vxvA8Vn9yIr4LLJa495OfD36dW/TLcpJEYY4xg9kmq5bjDiWNjShEGr96NzRVqdEubMAs2QMD9jxPY+SjRJVXFTf1YwTgA+vsVDvK/XTMEZ2w1ez4ATvCXFbAV6+ycSMvz7bUwbd7zXuWEA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=z+9JM4ehlygR5GFFXpK9+b9/XDqjM0qnXYBGQKOtJEQ=; b=hwoXUj2w2RM6iHgdEB0jZlNWPzfIP0v1tdTfVTjp4aX4qAw0bkyg/fA4OjO/0fJCvPj22GXyjBtd1+eXYNI3lZjZkVKHJkERzQwnRSZhGQgS0pHAmLtfhmO74Cz9Iw2ITfgHo6lveZpoSs0vKaC/7ALobQvAf86gvTH5My7AUFUPh6nRDKBS7scaIYzfrDliLcU4HQARWpnltYsmpMMSe4JudCD6Elhq9+FfKhZC1sp5+qmUeReqoddQQJxIcfTTPq2T4zozMIRNLgBim8hmyDZooDvGpKhxW7AtcFUv5Irr/SrytE1heWX4HnNGZlFAMeJJ/vFxpg7gaGedObhZFw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=hotmail.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=hotmail.com; dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=hotmail.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=z+9JM4ehlygR5GFFXpK9+b9/XDqjM0qnXYBGQKOtJEQ=; b=WV/dWPyrspA6mK8naiwDnxvNFcALe90ynV7vSkM11yY21euXRAw3uuYW8smeXlMqRYz19jpCAaQLehQX1JDfXenSgdC2YzPv/AzpxB1RvUYa6zITCP8ThRrxVVyQHRCNn4DjMnLsMyWYZH3xC1qbkFU59y2lYCPcD9v/ZwcignucAO3Mp06990HLsEcSEXvIMmn1l8pgTlatGKQp4vIkZGiY30dRDD9kysobCK68tT8WYRM7Mt2Yzck9O31CiRl04AuTopLvLo31WwRCipawzMlgkLikqtHErqS9fcL0dHlLiCI2a60ih0GYNeiq7p2NSSVQxi/5B7/ChSDhCX14Gw== Received: from AM6EUR05FT031.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::48) by AM6EUR05HT239.eop-eur05.prod.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::353) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2900.15; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:36:16 +0000 Received: from DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::47) by AM6EUR05FT031.mail.protection.outlook.com (2a01:111:e400:fc11::151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2900.15 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:36:16 +0000 X-IncomingTopHeaderMarker: OriginalChecksum:93DE51C6AE6180DBF769A092405B63F36C041ACB073DAFCB3FE5EA4A14240412; UpperCasedChecksum:7BE47C5F16FB3F2B8EF9FABB7AF2C36BBB79E077BCBE8CF0D9E2526B6BB5A3AD; SizeAsReceived:8661; Count:47 Received: from DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cc9:9d58:c027:5919]) by DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3cc9:9d58:c027:5919%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2900.015; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:36:16 +0000 To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" From: Manish Jain Subject: Non-responsive mouse in FreeBSD virtual machine Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:05:51 +0530 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ClientProxiedBy: BM1PR0101CA0022.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:b00:18::32) To DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:126::7) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.1.5] (45.127.45.74) by BM1PR0101CA0022.INDPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:1096:b00:18::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2900.15 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:36:15 +0000 X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: X-TMN: [OXikF+FcpZufHscbHh1o4eDJRNBEAIrc] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-IncomingHeaderCount: 47 X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 405af97a-0bc6-4b71-7a03-08d7de9b0964 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM6EUR05HT239: X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: ihtArvyRJ7F4nfiMrpNtQpVAIIccgH6BmqY8ZxHxmfJZ708uJfR0S9epZWOGRSck7HI/R6rLyj77uDocsZHxY0JF9twkk23pm/+/WeXPwLKegoKhEl6CPDdhTUCMBTMhVr7NO2pk8XJD9nPqyMVATfJ0vMy3gDj6qEk3cArIez5KBorC9s39uoa9UTYd1Ane X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:0; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB8PR06MB6442.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:; DIR:OUT; SFP:1901; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: ixdaUlGAPFFjnrRj9Eo8atID9jqLCiu7ww0EHfnAePABH+z68NpCtaV73Wm2C2IE4QmzTRoMubrnmUXElpLxHWFuh9rG1Sb9oj3EgdmUf1ZbsHUKiZCydMn9nvQTTap4xyK5tEheQaeu11zfuPy2wg== X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 405af97a-0bc6-4b71-7a03-08d7de9b0964 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Apr 2020 04:36:16.0010 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6EUR05HT239 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490K8Y3pn2z4c1p X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=hotmail.com header.s=selector1 header.b=WV/dWPyr; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=hotmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bourne.identity@hotmail.com designates 40.92.91.23 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bourne.identity@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [6.36 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:40.92.0.0/15]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[hotmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[hotmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[74.45.127.45.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8075, ipnet:40.64.0.0/10, country:US]; FORGED_MUA_THUNDERBIRD_MSGID_UNKNOWN(2.50)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[hotmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 40.64.0.0/10(-3.76), asn: 8075(-3.16), country: US(-0.05)]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[74.45.127.45.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[hotmail.com:s=selector1]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; ARC_ALLOW(0.00)[i=1]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.20)[-0.203,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.94)[-0.938,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[23.91.92.40.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.3.0]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 04:51:26 -0000 Hi, I have a strange situation here. I am running a FreeBSD 12.1 amd64 virtual machine in VirtualBox. Everything works fine in the vm, except that the mouse simply won't respond to click/right-click in any desktop (gnome3/kde5/mate/xfce). So I can't open up the apps menu, change desktop background, bring up a terminal, anything else. The mouse just moves as expected and even offers tooltips, but nothing happens with click/right-click. Surprisingly, the mouse works fine in the default X window system twm. How can I possibly get the mouse to work normally in a desktop environment ? Thanks for any help. Manish Jain From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 05:19:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0942C2B2696 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 05:19:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (net-2-44-121-52.cust.vodafonedsl.it [2.44.121.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490KmT4pC5z4dBG for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 05:19:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from alamar.ventu (alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03C5J0hG034260 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:19:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host alamar.local.netfence.it [10.1.2.18] claimed to be alamar.ventu Subject: Re: Restoring and snapshots To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <56b4e678-0e66-e65b-b9d2-a2e79a5b7b6f@netfence.it> From: Andrea Venturoli Message-ID: <2a0ee11a-eb32-7ae2-256f-ad1b00d1e49d@netfence.it> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 07:19:00 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490KmT4pC5z4dBG X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 2.44.121.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:2.44.121.52]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; IP_SCORE(-1.75)[ip: (-8.41), ipnet: 2.44.0.0/16(-4.20), asn: 30722(3.83), country: IT(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 05:19:07 -0000 On 2020-04-12 00:18, David Christensen wrote: > I am confused: > > *  What is the type of the filesystem that was the source of the backup? ZFS in the example above, but I've got the same problem with UFS, as I also use snapshot there. > *  What tool(s) did you use to backup? Sometimes Bacula, sometimes some custom scripts. > *  What is the type of the filesystem that was the destination of the > backup? Could be UFS, bacula volumes, tapes, ZIPs, etc... > *  What tool(s) are you using to restore? Again either Bacula or some custom scripts. > *  What is the type of the filesystem that is the destination of the > restore? Usually UFS or ZFS; could be something else. > So, the backup source filesystem and the restore destination filesystems > are both ZFS (?). Possibly, but not always. > The upper Unix filesystem path should be an empty directory. Should, but not always is. Sometimes I found "forgotten" files in the directory which is the target of the nullfs mount. Of course those files are usually hidden and probably useless, but must be taken into account. > I believe it is a result of the 'mountpoint' properties of the two ZFS > file systems and how ZFS represents filesystem snapshots in the Unix > file system. No, this can happen with UFS too. bye & Thanks av. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 06:24:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434A42B3C0A for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 06:24:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490MDL3k9Xz3CSl for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 06:24:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.223.161.78]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue009 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MhlCa-1ijlS10NTk-00dlMY; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:24:45 +0200 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:24:44 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Manish Jain Cc: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Non-responsive mouse in FreeBSD virtual machine Message-Id: <20200412082444.29be302d.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:I/5DoCa5uAW3CizGywjnpo16dGE3f8xUmIkjPR013F9ts5Nv4gZ N49NjC/rj46G6qKvMiOPhU0Xzn9CqwzCBeysomJNtChoA0FnrnsMFXjjVHqqq/dFvOj4WXs fLbSLFc8fdp05F5KUtQh6vEX4WbAzO3xGxjRm5Yk5Gj9WdH1jDKkZ12i46Xoq/68i5uiXlw 5dNcB+DyRNeESu9EgBtWg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Kn34Fa1/7rc=:Ri382AkX3RxieIL3cuL62M zqIadrXNa8Z1FxSXJKzAY8WZ8OpiyueawtI4EiLNg9q/hjcTirybE1CZ1CVEj11lpj+LCVvVg MjwPE6RxrwsrwxT6Lq3FSw9mRwfFud3atqndpokpvg8tQzjtcNdNtlrWZSNk3vBlW7/NiP73P Vq7Fi8zfbDOWW56SaGO2AsI7FQxM31DsTDjwBl7/Qa7W7tWaYwtU6ujIeeg9BRoEzlI+VQgx+ WUqS64kmllvTuIi7qrpmeWzZEE4Kqb5dvE8d7eDkZ2ac77NtNbm8z2rtWB/RD/qhW1YjTvz8I GsW2ayh0DIcpc+uMNABzXBdr40+VCx0KYkTXm8+Xx8+G7F17tgxwYt4IApQ0oN07OLLWLlUsL cbdKutmgBWSskYCJcQJpoNvIdLDYprv/a3n5CD2JNrozhxclWvclEFtyPaQsc46ReukU8cs0T FsCMuxPOFPmTJgXouvEL2kiShDY1fwT8a0xDF2IMQtPRXToQmmNjbwtL0tORg54d6KeZPbty6 9M+xlCfDCfYUUAaPtNfwdFTIIqnamNyTBQOVUrQB9fdf4rHFWHaLbfA035EDdIaSSF5URA6MN TGmZy5pu17HGFO8wVEzeW92tehPkZCJCa3cE0k/jOlPN4mcSFA6Rpb9TuFVHyNg74LUHLlLcY xUvb+NcwpXCgYFwRunwfSDItzcXveVr4KOZ9mVNUAektQYnwe0OjmbAbLGEsHPgGABzY3HIv6 xfCqDBWNMBUosZIPTWTJPPk6mvhRFQPVcS9b5suBG0uG+ZcmK8Cxpxb+QVpA8xwAozJ0NS23K TVrOstJxkCXncQcGs9VQqdIXu28rZoVizJHGQbiOWegtS8RzKGFxOmoyb6lc3shu/h64xm9ws yQEE/DBV2zWncX1h74CA== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490MDL3k9Xz3CSl X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.187) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.39 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[78.161.223.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.72)[0.724,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.994,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[187.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[187.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.27)[ip: (0.42), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.16), asn: 8560(2.11), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 06:24:52 -0000 On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:05:51 +0530, Manish Jain wrote: > I have a strange situation here. I am running a FreeBSD 12.1 amd64 > virtual machine in VirtualBox. > > Everything works fine in the vm, except that the mouse simply won't > respond to click/right-click in any desktop (gnome3/kde5/mate/xfce). Those desktops have in common... the use of HAL and DBus. Do you have those enabled in /etc/rc.conf? > So I can't open up the apps menu, change desktop background, bring up a > terminal, anything else. There are usually shortcuts for that, like Alt+PF1, or the "Windows" advertising key found on many keyboards. Sometimes a terminal can be launched with Ctrl+Alt+T. But all this of course depends on the desktop and its initial configuration, and it doesn't really solve the problem. :-) > The mouse just moves as expected and even > offers tooltips, but nothing happens with click/right-click. > > Surprisingly, the mouse works fine in the default X window system twm. For verification, install the X event viewer (xev) and compare the results running under twm and in a desktop environment. Do the events of mouse movement mouse click appear as expected? > How can I possibly get the mouse to work normally in a desktop environment ? The correct question would include the adverb "fully" (working), because movement works, but clicks don't work. Maybe a VirtualBox setting is also involved here. Have you checked anything that could be related, like window focus and "transfer of control"? -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 08:23:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397802B669D for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:23:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490Prt1yB2z3Jy4 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:23:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 01:23:01 -0700 Subject: Re: Restoring and snapshots To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <56b4e678-0e66-e65b-b9d2-a2e79a5b7b6f@netfence.it> <2a0ee11a-eb32-7ae2-256f-ad1b00d1e49d@netfence.it> From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 01:23:00 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2a0ee11a-eb32-7ae2-256f-ad1b00d1e49d@netfence.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490Prt1yB2z3Jy4 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.72)[ip: (-0.31), ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.66), asn: 6939(-3.60), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:23:12 -0000 On 2020-04-11 22:19, Andrea Venturoli wrote: > On 2020-04-12 00:18, David Christensen wrote: >> I am confused: >> *  What is the type of the filesystem that was the source of the backup? > ZFS in the example above, but I've got the same problem with UFS, as I > also use snapshot there. >> *  What tool(s) did you use to backup? > Sometimes Bacula, sometimes some custom scripts. >> *  What is the type of the filesystem that was the destination of the >> backup? > Could be UFS, bacula volumes, tapes, ZIPs, etc... >> *  What tool(s) are you using to restore? > Again either Bacula or some custom scripts. >> *  What is the type of the filesystem that is the destination of the >> restore? > Usually UFS or ZFS; could be something else. >> So, the backup source filesystem and the restore destination >> filesystems are both ZFS (?). > Possibly, but not always. >> The upper Unix filesystem path should be an empty directory. > Should, but not always is. > Sometimes I found "forgotten" files in the directory which is the target > of the nullfs mount. Of course those files are usually hidden and > probably useless, but must be taken into account. I would do the housekeeping -- unmount the filesystems that are overlaying the mount point directories containing forgotten files and move the forgotten files to wherever they belong, or delete them. There is nothing you can do about the copies that have already been snapshotted (other than destroying those snapshots). >> I believe it is a result of the 'mountpoint' properties of the two ZFS >> file systems and how ZFS represents filesystem snapshots in the Unix >> file system. > No, this can happen with UFS too. It sounds like you are using file- and directory-level backup tools for ZFS filesystems (?). I did that for a while and it works, but I knew I was doing it the wrong way. If you are using file- and directory-level backup tools to back up ZFS snapshots, that definitely sounds like you are barking up the wrong tree. That is what ZFS replication is for. Now I'm using ZFS snapshots and replication to backup ZFS filesystems to other ZFS pools. I still use rsync to backup non-ZFS filesystems, but the backup destinations are ZFS filesystems; which are fed into zfs-auto-snapshot and the rest of my backup processes. My tar/gzip archives are now sourced from ZFS snapshots rather than live filesystems. Life is good. :-) David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 08:50:12 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD0742B6C8F for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:50:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from soth.netfence.it (net-2-44-121-52.cust.vodafonedsl.it [2.44.121.52]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailserver.netfence.it", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490QS26bjhz3KyP for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:50:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) Received: from guardian.ventu (guardian.guest.netfence.it [192.168.133.26]) (authenticated bits=0) by soth.netfence.it (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03C8o5WP039687 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:50:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from ml@netfence.it) X-Authentication-Warning: soth.netfence.it: Host guardian.guest.netfence.it [192.168.133.26] claimed to be guardian.ventu Subject: Re: Restoring and snapshots To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <56b4e678-0e66-e65b-b9d2-a2e79a5b7b6f@netfence.it> <2a0ee11a-eb32-7ae2-256f-ad1b00d1e49d@netfence.it> From: Andrea Venturoli Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:50:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.83 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490QS26bjhz3KyP X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=netfence.it; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ml@netfence.it designates 2.44.121.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ml@netfence.it X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.57 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:2.44.121.52:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[netfence.it,none]; IP_SCORE(-1.77)[ip: (-8.48), ipnet: 2.44.0.0/16(-4.24), asn: 30722(3.83), country: IT(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:30722, ipnet:2.44.0.0/16, country:IT]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 08:50:12 -0000 On 2020-04-12 10:23, David Christensen wrote: > It sounds like you are using file- and directory-level backup tools for > ZFS filesystems (?). Exactly. As I said, however, I'm having the same problem with UFS... You are focusing on ZFS, but this was not the point of the original post; it was just an example. > If you are using file- and directory-level backup tools to back up ZFS > snapshots, that definitely sounds like you are barking up the wrong > tree. Sometimes you have complex system, with several machines (some with ZFS, some with UFS, some with a mix and some not even BSD) and you need an integrated solution. Handling ZFS filesystem differently from the others would be a pain. Besides, restoring a whole filesystem if you just need a couple of files would be very inefficient. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 09:11:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0BE2B7445 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 09:11:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@osfux.nl) Received: from vm1982.osfux.nl (vm1982.osfux.nl [IPv6:2a03:5500:1724:55:79:99:187:212]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490QwD0xpNz3MN2 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 09:11:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@osfux.nl) Received: from vm1982.osfux.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vm1982.osfux.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B0D2011C for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 11:10:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none shortcircuit=no X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 Received: from [192.168.9.195] (unknown [95.174.67.156]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by vm1982.osfux.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 11:10:56 +0200 (CEST) To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Ruben Subject: iscsi + restoring zfs snapshot Message-ID: <0ead1643-0fa3-3a89-2d2b-9086a46af6f6@osfux.nl> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 11:10:52 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490QwD0xpNz3MN2 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[osfux.nl:s=default]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; IP_SCORE(-1.69)[ip: (-9.55), asn: 8315(1.10), country: NL(0.03)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[osfux.nl:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[osfux.nl,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8315, ipnet:2a03:5500::/31, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 09:11:10 -0000 Hi, I have a couple of linux clients that mount an iscsi target provided by a zfs filesystem on a FreeBSD host. Yesterday I messed things up and I am trying to restore a snapshot to revert the changes. I seem to be able to do so, but since the result is somewhat unexepected I'm probably going the wrong way about it. The strange thing is that the snapshot restored from 2 weeks ago contains changes from last night :S This is the FS: zfs get all data/Docker/torrent NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE data/Docker/torrent type volume - data/Docker/torrent creation Sun Dec 1 21:04 2019 - data/Docker/torrent used 56.8G - data/Docker/torrent available 93.0G - data/Docker/torrent referenced 19.7G - data/Docker/torrent compressratio 1.00x - data/Docker/torrent reservation none default data/Docker/torrent volsize 30G local data/Docker/torrent volblocksize 8K default data/Docker/torrent checksum on default data/Docker/torrent compression off default data/Docker/torrent readonly off default data/Docker/torrent createtxg 22810439 - data/Docker/torrent copies 1 default data/Docker/torrent refreservation 30.9G local data/Docker/torrent guid 15050313927458195147 - data/Docker/torrent primarycache all default data/Docker/torrent secondarycache all default data/Docker/torrent usedbysnapshots 6.12G - data/Docker/torrent usedbydataset 19.7G - data/Docker/torrent usedbychildren 0 - data/Docker/torrent usedbyrefreservation 30.9G - data/Docker/torrent logbias latency default data/Docker/torrent dedup off default data/Docker/torrent mlslabel - data/Docker/torrent sync standard default data/Docker/torrent refcompressratio 1.00x - data/Docker/torrent written 17.1K - data/Docker/torrent logicalused 12.1G - data/Docker/torrent logicalreferenced 9.25G - data/Docker/torrent volmode dev local data/Docker/torrent snapshot_limit none default data/Docker/torrent snapshot_count none default data/Docker/torrent redundant_metadata all default These are its snapshots: zfs list -t snapshot -r data/Docker/torrent NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-15_09.05.00--90d 677M - 6.30G - data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-22_09.05.00--90d 783M - 6.57G - data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-29_09.05.00--90d 798M - 6.65G - data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-07_09.05.00--90d 693M - 8.71G - data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-14_09.05.00--90d 684M - 11.2G - data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-21_09.05.00--90d 611M - 13.9G - data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-28_09.05.00--90d 864M - 18.1G - data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d 17.1K - 19.7G - [root@gneisenau:/usr/home/fux]# This is my restore attempt: zfs send data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-14_09.05.00--90d | zfs receive data/restoredfromsnapshot If I unmount the FS from the client, and export this new FS instead as: lun 3 { path /dev/zvol/data/restoredfromsnapshot size 30G } , restart ctld, mount that on the same linux client (but with the "ro" option): /dev/sdd on /mnt/restored_data type ext4 (ro,noatime,stripe=256,_netdev) it contains : root@torrent:/mnt/restored_data# ls -laht total 44K drwxr-xr-x 5 root root 4.0K Apr 12 10:23 .. drwx--x--x 14 root root 4.0K Apr 11 21:06 docker drwxrwxr-x 8 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 . drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 deluge_config drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 docker_volumes drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4.0K May 21 2019 downloads drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4.0K May 21 2019 sickrage drwx------ 2 root root 16K May 21 2019 lost+found root@torrent:/mnt/restored_data# changes from way after 2020-03-14 , including those from last night . Huh? I'm using zfSnap for creating the snapshots, like this: /usr/local/sbin/zfSnap -s -z -a 90d -r data/Docker My first attempt to rollback yesterday's changes involved using the rollback option ( zfs rollback -r data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d ) but that did not work either (yesterday's changes were not reverted). Somebody got any insights as to why i'm unable to revert yesterday's changes? Any feedback appreciated! Kind regards, Ruben From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 10:23:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6112B8EB0; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:23:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490SWs6C4Dz3x5Z; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:23:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4216C20E9; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:23:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo12-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wEZJsG_bzwWW; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:23:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 84BB6C210D; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:23:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03CANFuB040754 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:23:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) Subject: Re: pkg mirrors extremely slow, why not use the ftp mirrors? To: Tomasz CEDRO , Martin Hanson Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org References: <6094091586626901@vla1-a1bfe7298e26.qloud-c.yandex.net> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: <9e55d4bb-921a-ba19-3707-4431597ef79c@hedeland.org> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 12:23:15 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490SWs6C4Dz3x5Z X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of per@hedeland.org has no SPF policy when checking 64.68.202.10) smtp.mailfrom=per@hedeland.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.11 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[209.157.228.81.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.35)[ip: (0.51), ipnet: 64.68.200.0/22(-0.21), asn: 16686(1.56), country: CA(-0.09)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[hedeland.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.03)[0.031,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.93)[0.928,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[10.202.68.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16686, ipnet:64.68.200.0/22, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:23:40 -0000 On 2020-04-11 22:41, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 7:42 PM Martin Hanson wrote: >> I'm on a gigabit connection in EU, using the "pkg0.bme.freebsd.org" is horrible: > > +1 on this one :-( Compared to Linux repos where you can fetch really > large amount of packages in a seconds we are really behind :-( I can > see some improvement in speed recently but its still too slow.. +1 on the slowness, but not on recent improvement - depending on the meaning of "recent", I rather think the *slowness* is recent. In all the years that I've been using the package repositories, I've never considered it particularly slow - until I had reason to install a few packages this last week, seeing speeds around 100 kB/s like Martin reported or worse. My previous significant use was probably in early January when I upgraded several hosts to 12.1-RELEASE, installing hundreds of packages in the process - and it was "reasonably fast" AFAIR. FWIW, I'm also i EU (Sweden), but for some reason end up fetching from pkg0.nyi.freebsd.org - my connection is 250 MBit down / 100 MBit up. --Per From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 13:22:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0CC92BDFEC for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:22:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic307-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-56.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490XVF3sHpz47Xk for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:22:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: IZNZOscVM1mFOSFJcYTZnIhVj1ihsLKZH8q4qYvcqYW_QLx2od_NtzngEsShU3a f2K_ZfX0ssh4NoxTyqPdqRbypp4DKhT0dOkIrDD4U0jGr.iOaXDbGeSbLE.IwExXENPe4E0y.6ma SBSqZoYCGP.3rVLxAwHDlfPTrmqQd9vnMM2xwcglfVapHMGppZonOtqvnrzSmAFiCsC7E7aqEktk Fx.XxxahWLlZnNFwZqSmTMJi4V6P7UUHFD3EgVKrUiwQ_dhenAH1ryeNIjgN4qHG24udKGZFanoS GcyAo6hclK.WOn7TLsB11q6SfyeFBwJKG0QnR3Iy5nnXWDxJOP_Rfu9MaXPE_yJ95KuPMfdtL5G8 uKc7b8e27tg6X_RDGRsomX1NUrQHf3jcIEp_i5pWxEqtd1PhqKuK5M0oCxppooOtnH0ixHB69h8w 7_6uff6WzMx0fnMk2Io442DJ81pGAd0HxkiEEBxwVqy4ws.w.OY4MvPhxiWtQG0C57me38H8ezgl IA0JI9PH825ArKMw3x7BtwdT2hfbwLTsiSWURMfY8VsxFiNqczclKm0vyIMTmN5K54eg_CaXb3oO yz_ZUtYz.pkTYWSmis89Tdpg6YoEVf6tfCJojylVbTRkLvvRzpDduOFUm_W_uhSryqu8X643tXWV _Tm3SitJOrIoFZikq.w_TZsElkv6zaVCzoimIkhVH9f7xVOW7lHq8.eZEE1MAoGoVYLLk_HuEZtL gfLnQY.B2ORZsr2X.Y0bZ_BIit4P723Art5U7gWGEqsiNeUOQEFNtYIApAaw4UX1cyKw8q7412ko imHJlH8o4RR1ybvBKlM.0LwDtnxqSgncw0tOfeX0NOfya_3gKhIxahjz8du5_oaTNw30HOUlzWP0 dKUfwMAgGfmtjVX2U5h0TZlo5z01f8mcGgR5BIq3Pzi5gyQ1bgLfAGsKFHl6zcZtl06veXRkbRqg HfljDDT1cOd1twufvJAqMuYYnCJag1wSpNVYlAGKEYk3CI2oAoLYzjiPQU7m9cyQxFHKtayRy0f0 NCgFiLrWpccIKYig2FSezpWmf2M06rtwp6pLB0ztrhSLvk8rNuNduAxp2JnI25G5EBDFv67w6.h7 NYG.17lWCjWzowLlEp63Cb3tBl2i49GcvxIroTqyq.utD4AT3DXXfB9t41R45zEiuh3pzZoNBRaz kVLzDWFTrvOJM2z2aK5bzvWyUaP4asrOaonCTA2VFkzA43eTe5xoHtBSvTXiu6ZaiDjPMOvVSSM0 wi3frbRGZT4CG2boBgDexzsBuxiNfYRheUIiU_UYwl4eaoH39l0_s4SMqboun8m6i4iISuivb3pc HMOxpbs31oTQx2Vb57wDEWfai7uaYgu9khP5wrOrmakG8_DiJTDaV.kt745vMTeyx7AIavPMHPZ9 F9uEJ0v98KiPVClZj6_PeX8rbYuo- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:22:27 +0000 Received: by smtp414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 23fe5aadb08786d87b5c929d6ae70954; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:22:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-f170.google.com with SMTP id w11so3308302pga.12 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 06:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZE05eHPRglrxplh3dmlBtlpSQimNywtp3DZAS3skvgQ4e4YD7g 9tC6aTTMo3hLABHqICFtyb/UGJw6ZmQwFKySwxY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK6HNGknInnMx/E3FBzinWEiiMrlzNyCe9YWLwwxCc4MYjZ28/QOpBejYFHHBxS5KbzbmfqCMz+H9NZf6M4rTc= X-Received: by 2002:a65:5509:: with SMTP id f9mr5191987pgr.70.1586697746253; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 06:22:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6094091586626901@vla1-a1bfe7298e26.qloud-c.yandex.net> In-Reply-To: <6094091586626901@vla1-a1bfe7298e26.qloud-c.yandex.net> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:22:10 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: pkg mirrors extremely slow, why not use the ftp mirrors? To: Martin Hanson Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15620 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490XVF3sHpz47Xk X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.83 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yandex.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.83)[-0.830,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.30)[-0.296,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.64), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[31.190.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[31.190.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 13:22:30 -0000 On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 18:41, Martin Hanson wrote: > > Why are not all the old http:.//ftp.*.freebsd.org mirrors used for pkg? This ^. As an absolute beginner who is oblivious to the hysterical raisins why this and that have happened in the past, I wonder why packages are not stored as a subdirectory of ftp.freebsd.org/pub/, which would make it easy for all official and unofficial mirrors to keep a copy of them. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 21:09:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5412A99CA for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:09:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490ksZ61mYz4g5S for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:09:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:09:52 -0700 Subject: Re: Restoring and snapshots To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <56b4e678-0e66-e65b-b9d2-a2e79a5b7b6f@netfence.it> <2a0ee11a-eb32-7ae2-256f-ad1b00d1e49d@netfence.it> From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:09:51 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490ksZ61mYz4g5S X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.82 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.72)[ip: (-0.30), ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.66), asn: 6939(-3.60), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:09:55 -0000 On 2020-04-10 02:30, Andrea Venturoli wrote: > When I'm doing backups/dumps of ZFS filesystems (with whatever tool), > I use snapshots. So, suppose I have the following datasets: /etc /usr > /usr/local /var > > I'll snapshot them and back up /etc/.zfs/snapshot/snapname/ > /usr/.zfs/snapshot/snapname/ /usr/local/.zfs/snapshot/snapname/ > /var/.zfs/snapshot/snapname/ > > Then I'll get the same directory structure when restoring. Any idea > how to easily remove the .zfs/snap and go back to the original tree? > > I tried writing a few lines of script, but I found out that's not so > easy (due to directories which must overlap, spaces in file names, > etc...). > > Any hint? On 2020-04-11 01:31, Andrea Venturoli wrote: > I'm wondering if I should abandon sh and use something else > (Python?). On 2020-04-12 01:50, Andrea Venturoli wrote: > On 2020-04-12 10:23, David Christensen wrote: >> It sounds like you are using file- and directory-level backup tools >> for ZFS filesystems (?). > Exactly. As I said, however, I'm having the same problem with UFS... > You are focusing on ZFS, but this was not the point of the original > post; it was just an example. >> If you are using file- and directory-level backup tools to back up >> ZFS snapshots, that definitely sounds like you are barking up the >> wrong tree. > Sometimes you have complex system, with several machines (some with > ZFS, some with UFS, some with a mix and some not even BSD) and you > need an integrated solution. Handling ZFS filesystem differently from > the others would be a pain. Besides, restoring a whole filesystem if > you just need a couple of files would be very inefficient. I do not use Bacula and have only a basic understanding of it. Beware that "integrated solution" can mean "all your eggs in one basket". That said, two ideas come to mind: 1. It appears Bacula provides a plug-in API. So, write a plug-in for Bacula that knows how to convert Bacula backup saved paths to client filesystem live paths (and vice-versa?) when the former are ZFS snapshots. 2. Have Bacula restore a set of related ZFS snapshots into a temporary directory and then write a script that reassembles everything. A key parameter in any case will be the ZFS 'mountpoint' property for the ZFS snapshots in question. I don't know if Bacula preserves ZFS properties on backup or restore. If not, this information must come from somewhere else. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sun Apr 12 21:28:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9555E2AA30B for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:28:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490lGp60KTz3CrB for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:28:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id j16so6068239oih.10 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5HxvMJPD9/XJ12GMhPn6ei7RPPM7mRCgWbW4WxzDn/I=; b=dS4UOh6K8aFZ6/f2pO57+/Ag9D66U7QaAmvB2pZbtgPksfYjk+3oee4O9xGyQZIQbN lG6enXqN9QDao2UMP0wjz2QYukcb/qquRdZyqUEhMN0gAbr8pPe+ZRIIKBmKUNHRb34E xHd2ZgJj4Tusn6sGxfLnfz5vS7EnKZYvIFfVdZbo9oG6JaQKue3LUbk42i4NLVDotPZl PTuMdwY3VHvjdmcndTcxVeMUgGF+4JLp3Yod2A2S/FSEyH0yLpz+3gXxMRWKSQoSKgNB YDHz1vCfdWaxVOFf6xmeIqyPkXPMH0iGrueVqh8HPLI3/jZJuQk7HiMQ6l/GFnUADK2E xOEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5HxvMJPD9/XJ12GMhPn6ei7RPPM7mRCgWbW4WxzDn/I=; b=Ekcd/cLs8gvM8plWySF24xqwAxsRXNdb2R2sUD8jP6EkhG4YB6pMNEsn6Z5xtfcpmQ nSmWLSrMZCCiBVnEKZyUUgp3n9Lju0FP5F5cP1LI8+Dlb3XutOWjXSev2IrlIxVRCLvQ lO5xKkrZrxjHFkyTPLesaaH0am5c6rluvxKF6/3NMRBe5hhY9PCKkR9ilIy/+B1aJnH7 ljyXrsHzOSfB/dJDairgHMQclq4+V783mvCyzUXo1otPCCgFBVuITH5Ua84/np3lt3Bk Q2gTqd8UkgsYDWOhFOMRihRTeA6q1sOiA7ey/WqPpM/TpFt3JGXj78IhQZ1iDq0Xxt0E SZ7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZa1fFTqyXPOEaqhkH9S04Y4QWD2uHYWXELzqGueFacga4xlNMG TCifhr2DRFdXlMtjMDJmflAMp5ekvBE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLGb+W/DsNHuZvSwqzQ/MEahH4uyktA+sYPEL2c46fPInLshJAuQPAhIkjYMWvUwb9KZaR50g== X-Received: by 2002:aca:c68b:: with SMTP id w133mr2105893oif.175.1586726897274; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f177.google.com (mail-oi1-f177.google.com. [209.85.167.177]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i9sm3903345otf.1.2020.04.12.14.28.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f177.google.com with SMTP id u20so6077108oic.4; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:28:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:485:: with SMTP id z5mr9745758oid.78.1586726895549; Sun, 12 Apr 2020 14:28:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6094091586626901@vla1-a1bfe7298e26.qloud-c.yandex.net> <9e55d4bb-921a-ba19-3707-4431597ef79c@hedeland.org> In-Reply-To: <9e55d4bb-921a-ba19-3707-4431597ef79c@hedeland.org> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 23:27:44 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: pkg mirrors extremely slow, why not use the ftp mirrors? To: Per Hedeland Cc: Martin Hanson , FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 490lGp60KTz3CrB X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=dS4UOh6K; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::231) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.25 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.95)[ip: (-8.94), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yandex.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 2020 21:28:19 -0000 On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 12:23 PM Per Hedeland wrote: > On 2020-04-11 22:41, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 7:42 PM Martin Hanson wrote: > >> I'm on a gigabit connection in EU, using the "pkg0.bme.freebsd.org" is horrible: > > > > +1 on this one :-( Compared to Linux repos where you can fetch really > > large amount of packages in a seconds we are really behind :-( I can > > see some improvement in speed recently but its still too slow.. > > +1 on the slowness, but not on recent improvement - depending on the > meaning of "recent", I rather think the *slowness* is recent. In all > the years that I've been using the package repositories, I've never > considered it particularly slow - until I had reason to install a few > packages this last week, seeing speeds around 100 kB/s like Martin > reported or worse. My previous significant use was probably in early > January when I upgraded several hosts to 12.1-RELEASE, installing > hundreds of packages in the process - and it was "reasonably fast" > AFAIR. > > FWIW, I'm also i EU (Sweden), but for some reason end up fetching from > pkg0.nyi.freebsd.org - my connection is 250 MBit down / 100 MBit up. For me on 600/60MBit in Polska / Europe it was always some KB/s.. recently bumps up to MB/s :-P -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 09:05:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6132B7E27 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:05:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.io (ciao.gmane.io [159.69.161.202]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4912kz5Khbz4KmS for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:05:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jNv1m-000Bvg-F2 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:05:14 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Morten Bo Johansen Subject: Touchpad stopped working after pgk upgrade Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:05:06 +0200 Message-ID: Reply-To: mbj@mbjnet.dk User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (FreeBSD) Mail-Copies-To: Never X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4912kz5Khbz4KmS X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[mbj@mbjnet.dk]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.83)[-0.828,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_QUARANTINE(1.50)[mbjnet.dk : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,quarantine]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.86)[-0.857,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.13)[ip: (1.04), ipnet: 159.69.0.0/16(-0.08), asn: 24940(-1.58), country: DE(-0.02)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[listmail@mbjnet.dk,freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:159.69.0.0/16, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[listmail@mbjnet.dk,freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:05:16 -0000 Hi, I'm rather new to Freebsd and yesterday I did a "pkg upgrade" after which the touchpad on my Lenovo R61 is no longer responsive. There is also some oddities with my keyboard such as the arrow up key not working anymore. - Running xev shows no reaction when touching the touchpad. - Xorg.0.log shows no errors or warnings. - moused is running as I can plug in a USB mouse and have it working. I unplugged the usb mouse and ran the command: $ sudo /usr/sbin/moused -p /dev/sysmouse -t auto as I surmise that /dev/sysmouse refers to the touchpad(?) but moused responds with moused: unable to get status of mouse fd: inappropiate ioctl for device The output from Xorg -version: X.Org X Server 1.20.8 X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0 Build Operating System: FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 amd64 Current Operating System: FreeBSD mathilde.mbjnet.dk 12.1-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 GENERIC amd64 Build Date: 02 April 2020 10:19:53AM Current version of pixman: 0.38.4 Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org to make sure that you have the latest version. The output from uname -mrs: FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 amd64 My desktop system is xfce4, version 4.14. About 200 packages were upgraded and I'd love to supply a list but I don't know where the log for this is kept(?) Anyone to help me getting my touchpad back? Thanks, Morten -- "Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% mortality rate" (Sven Delblanc) From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 10:03:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3532B8FB2 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:03:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peo@nethead.se) Received: from ns1.nethead.se (ns1.nethead.se [5.150.237.139]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ns1.nethead.se", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49142B584Gz4NYH for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:03:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peo@nethead.se) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at Nethead AB DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nethead.se; s=NETHEADSE; t=1586772198; bh=EstSj+IjIW964gFnHe7KTOKxJl5d2YloCJy3SPbwSXg=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=09GnFyNerI10Wh5RUTgBmidCHhIrb0i7Yhl0kdoHWHSGWPDnFf//9z1+x6merAyU7 FTR036L8XUR1N/husmNJW4CrW/rpuqTNJZz3cyLS6cvzqL/L5TTC6bYsYH0nLgqMIt M1CFXtcXc8OoZQUjbgno8f/6rm1tMDpNzbd8tgT4= Subject: Re: Touchpad stopped working after pgk upgrade To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Per olof Ljungmark Message-ID: <660f79c9-147e-98f2-de28-2a0299170257@nethead.se> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:03:16 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49142B584Gz4NYH X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=nethead.se header.s=NETHEADSE header.b=09GnFyNe; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=nethead.se; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of peo@nethead.se designates 5.150.237.139 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=peo@nethead.se X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.83 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[nethead.se:s=NETHEADSE]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:5.150.237.139]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[nethead.se:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[nethead.se,none]; RCVD_COUNT_ZERO(0.00)[0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-2.83)[ip: (-9.74), ipnet: 5.150.192.0/18(-4.87), asn: 8473(0.47), country: SE(-0.03)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8473, ipnet:5.150.192.0/18, country:SE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:03:32 -0000 On 2020-04-13 11:05, Morten Bo Johansen via freebsd-questions wrote: > Hi, > > I'm rather new to Freebsd and yesterday I did a "pkg upgrade" > after which the touchpad on my Lenovo R61 is no longer > responsive. There is also some oddities with my keyboard such > as the arrow up key not working anymore. > > - Running xev shows no reaction when touching the touchpad. > - Xorg.0.log shows no errors or warnings. > - moused is running as I can plug in a USB mouse and have it > working. > > I unplugged the usb mouse and ran the command: > > $ sudo /usr/sbin/moused -p /dev/sysmouse -t auto > > as I surmise that /dev/sysmouse refers to the touchpad(?) > but moused responds with > > moused: unable to get status of mouse fd: inappropiate ioctl > for device > > The output from Xorg -version: > > X.Org X Server 1.20.8 > X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0 > Build Operating System: FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 amd64 > Current Operating System: FreeBSD mathilde.mbjnet.dk 12.1-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 GENERIC amd64 > Build Date: 02 April 2020 10:19:53AM > > Current version of pixman: 0.38.4 > Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org > to make sure that you have the latest version. > > The output from uname -mrs: > > FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 amd64 > > My desktop system is xfce4, version 4.14. > > About 200 packages were upgraded and I'd love to supply a list > but I don't know where the log for this is kept(?) > > Anyone to help me getting my touchpad back? > Hello Morten, Latest xorg changed in how devices are configured and you are not alone. There are several threads on the lists and on the forum about it. Try, https://www.google.com/search?q=freebsd+xorg+upgrade+keyboard+mouse&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:m&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR5LmtkeXoAhWQzMQBHfanDlgQpwV6BAhlEB0&biw=1691&bih=919 HTH, Per From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 10:50:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980A72BA43E for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:50:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49154q4Lgnz4RSr for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:50:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.223.161.78]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MsZ7T-1j9S7v3Zgh-00u0si; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:50:48 +0200 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:50:47 +0200 From: Polytropon To: mbj@mbjnet.dk Cc: Morten Bo Johansen via freebsd-questions , Morten Bo Johansen Subject: Re: Touchpad stopped working after pgk upgrade Message-Id: <20200413125047.31bd4872.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:rmXuZ/gmVjenq3WIytd/9NvDDPdnS7aevtoTtiInvh7SDhwDdsr CsGsveUWIRQfuxTqt4mRlGABiuiIvnmTv4dJlOWhoxhnqwYx9vW65I9n9o25Yp4aV7jQwfE kaoxnDxmfpKpOlBudkAVENyoA0Xi5ytlvz1rgJDU/PkNl1XYbFKcQy6OSu1O8FMPQ3kp6iA vwd9uj4e5oIUZdZe23n6Q== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:enToZRlpTWY=:mQ3YBagkDXZ9VKVv3mywg6 jVrNHEUi7anXTu49oj/nwNEkevznKRcPmLqaZLrVTuHiaNN6yk/PqSnwoq1QR8/7fF3hy1Fug NOWPct4mbwvYk63mAvwy46swoYuAqowrNUf4fCvFS38bYf/hYyXupjoMUZJVa9qG1Ej8E+w8e pQnlYXREXNajGoVGZVTv3qv82/p6KUCD15jWenVMFinhe9jjQeR7nI/nDJWyGTxYbAoe8zm+a QDKDMi7TbDPEWld1HLB/0TC47FVTEO+kHglsnQUoG15RHNdDse7VUXiym6wxg7YMjMVQgihF0 z3im588XpQIMDprYveEXJEHB/VkK6i2NTMhmh/nd9Budy/eyGpnhiaD3mhvD3clmxCAnH3Co9 rThJj4HAGByNJV3RFiQPCVPxo31+O0vokW5m41Wrmz8bn+wbjT9pbjjzSHeRkLAZcn34A8wLj BaTrsMClEd/lgB1SecHBfNWYzwJN/04si+Ww6YIRvDyrt0dAz335tYHTfA/vVj9Rm72nNorET ty+lOAZVFCiNNZ+ms8AVQFr1cOzxydXlE88WHbQc3FdnufM1oNQk4hqxE2Mua6nyyImIkrSCd Yai830VMEYkTRej7efQPJ/OpMlkkr14ymaFHnee5CHtlTD1J9S/+q75/i5FE/o1BzYehO7ipO iswFJTyHUBMW1J9XTHO1rDJue1LOhzIpq/BqqE+J9RFBEvXqpIQLxImK2BjVhM++18/Ya4lyQ Reun5SiN94hYSq4stnpLvF8jwzyeWpkiF2iPzXhOXDS08jEYY0ks6obxtzSaJNPP5zQM/P1iL eYKmUoiY5+FeRLNfK1xFlbo4Sa/Vk7oAj+tuH6a/wetq6afSCBi6k0zRtl5hGokXWVWcA9V X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49154q4Lgnz4RSr X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.135) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.39 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[78.161.223.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.75)[0.745,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.995,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[135.126.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.25)[ip: (0.31), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.16), asn: 8560(2.11), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:50:52 -0000 On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:05:06 +0200, Morten Bo Johansen via freebsd-questions wrote: > Hi, > > I'm rather new to Freebsd and yesterday I did a "pkg upgrade" > after which the touchpad on my Lenovo R61 is no longer > responsive. Sidenote: I also have (and use) a Lenovo Thinpad R61i, but I intendedly deactivated the touchpad in the BIOS and use the TrackPoint ("nub") instead. But before I did so, I know that both "nub" and touchpad seem to work "in parallel", i. e., they are "the same device". > There is also some oddities with my keyboard such > as the arrow up key not working anymore. > > - Running xev shows no reaction when touching the touchpad. > - Xorg.0.log shows no errors or warnings. > - moused is running as I can plug in a USB mouse and have it > working. > > I unplugged the usb mouse and ran the command: > > $ sudo /usr/sbin/moused -p /dev/sysmouse -t auto > > as I surmise that /dev/sysmouse refers to the touchpad(?) > but moused responds with > > moused: unable to get status of mouse fd: inappropiate ioctl > for device That is the expected result; /dev/sysmouse is a "X thing", while moused needs a device to be specified with the -p switch, such as /dev/psm0 (PS/2 mouse), /dev/ums0 (USB mouse), or /dev/cuaa0 (serial mouse). In case of the R61, /dev/psm0 should be correct. The corresponding settings for /etc/rc.conf are: moused_enable="YES" moused_port="/dev/psm0" moused_type="auto" However, if you plug in a USB mouse, devd will run moused with the appropriate device name (see above) automatically, so there's nothing you need to do. Furthermore, I don't think you need to deal with moused at all when you intend to use X (and not bother using the dysfunctional vt-based console mode). > The output from Xorg -version: > > X.Org X Server 1.20.8 > X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0 > Build Operating System: FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 amd64 > Current Operating System: FreeBSD mathilde.mbjnet.dk 12.1-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 GENERIC amd64 > Build Date: 02 April 2020 10:19:53AM > > Current version of pixman: 0.38.4 > Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org > to make sure that you have the latest version. Check /var/log/Xorg.0.log for "mouse"-related lines. There should be a successful LoadModule entry along with some settings for the mouse; here you'll also find "sysmouse" mentioned. > The output from uname -mrs: > > FreeBSD 12.1-RELEASE-p3 amd64 > > My desktop system is xfce4, version 4.14. > > About 200 packages were upgraded and I'd love to supply a list > but I don't know where the log for this is kept(?) With "pkg info", you can get a list of all packages that are currently installed. > Anyone to help me getting my touchpad back? Good question. ;-) As you said you're using Xfce, there's probably HAL and DBus involved, and maybe some configuration file buried within the /usr/local subtree, filled with XML garbage, that has been altered by an update... As you said, you updated a working installation. Maybe this is due to X having had some changes in the required packages, so your X installation is now missing something that's needed to address the mouse? Is xf86-input-mouse present? I cannot imagine the touchpad requiring anything further (as I have no longer-time record of using it), but maybe deleting and then re-installing X would help? However, even with an update, any "now missing" packages should have been installed, so... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 10:54:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F862BA6F0 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:54:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org) Received: from ciao.gmane.io (ciao.gmane.io [159.69.161.202]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49158r2cS1z4RgR for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:54:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jNwjJ-000SHi-Le for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:54:17 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Morten Bo Johansen Subject: Re: Touchpad stopped working after pgk upgrade Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:54:09 +0200 Message-ID: References: <660f79c9-147e-98f2-de28-2a0299170257@nethead.se> Reply-To: mbj@mbjnet.dk User-Agent: slrn/1.0.3 (FreeBSD) Mail-Copies-To: Never X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49158r2cS1z4RgR X-Spamd-Bar: / X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[mbj@mbjnet.dk]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.80)[-0.802,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_QUARANTINE(1.50)[mbjnet.dk : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,quarantine]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.76)[-0.760,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.14)[ip: (0.97), ipnet: 159.69.0.0/16(-0.08), asn: 24940(-1.58), country: DE(-0.02)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[listmail@mbjnet.dk,freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:159.69.0.0/16, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[listmail@mbjnet.dk,freebsd-questions@m.gmane-mx.org]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:54:21 -0000 On 2020-04-13 Per olof Ljungmark wrote: > Hello Morten, > > Latest xorg changed in how devices are configured and you are not alone. > There are several threads on the lists and on the forum about it. > > Try, > https://www.google.com/search?q=freebsd+xorg+upgrade+keyboard+mouse&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:m&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR5LmtkeXoAhWQzMQBHfanDlgQpwV6BAhlEB0&biw=1691&bih=919 Thanks for these pointers, Per. Problem with keyboard is solved now by adding setxkbmap -model pc105 -layout dk to my ~/.xinitrc and the problem with the touchpad is solved by adding kern.evdev.rcpt_mask=12 to /etc/sysctl.conf Thanks, Morten From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 12:12:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB69D2BCA48 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:12:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.xs4all.nl [83.161.133.58]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "cloudzeeland.nl", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4916tj5f8Tz4WSN for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:12:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.nl [10.10.10.36]) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BD8825F for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:12:05 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1586779926; bh=xe6o6t8iIyHd7N/EkqBIV0Qg3P0AsYhdzQnFyg5+9nM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=mJvzzq2TZ7ICMrze0Uc37jKb5fFVPS2oPJ4PzFirGBtj3FGygLJiSuto1qoEvD/3H gj2pXKACPWodJUg2Vtj5y84XoG9Fbs62NkNFc74SIRR5voNh0NortRvv4uYUqLplMK CpLhaOQTKZ4NEaFIYN8CGHaeGx9DHJk5CeQVKD7M= Received: from [10.10.10.34] (pion1.rpicloud.nl [82.176.127.71]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 57833825D for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:12:05 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1586779925; bh=xe6o6t8iIyHd7N/EkqBIV0Qg3P0AsYhdzQnFyg5+9nM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=3biJiG359UOVqsFhW4ZtXe2UlAv7UChvBAK6NGuObtIXCNgbzP4NMuTAFPs9nrvm8 tQyH6SpjlP/1IXGM8wg/7Bozz72ZQOx9OJ3NLfjnIHuGz+jejZcT/BDTDlgb9sWxX3 FbUuLjy7I2vyjg8YtvpkfixT0kqSNpYGR4uudjfE= Subject: Re: Cron config for ipfw table To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <44blnzta6s.fsf@be-well.ilk.org> <7e5f317c-1f06-9400-39c1-cd6ffe61334a@cloudzeeland.nl> <96B6708A-DD45-45D7-81E2-995011D8A0B2@luckyhands.nl> From: Jos Chrispijn Organization: Userland rocks! Message-ID: <799a0431-1adf-306b-628a-bef3a80bc7cb@cloudzeeland.nl> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:12:06 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <96B6708A-DD45-45D7-81E2-995011D8A0B2@luckyhands.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP on poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4916tj5f8Tz4WSN X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=mJvzzq2T; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=3biJiG35; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl designates 83.161.133.58 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.92 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cloudzeeland.nl:s=cloud]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl:+]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.42)[ip: (-9.79), ipnet: 83.160.0.0/14(-2.28), asn: 3265(-0.04), country: NL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3265, ipnet:83.160.0.0/14, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:12:14 -0000 On 11-4-20 14:22, Remy Zandwijk wrote: > Which crontab are you actually using? If it is /etc/crontab, then you should add a username (root) between @reboot and the path to the script. Is your script executable? Does it run if you start it by hand? Yep, that did the trick. Thanks^3 Jos From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 12:17:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393232BCD91 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:17:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.xs4all.nl [83.161.133.58]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client CN "cloudzeeland.nl", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49170N3dK6z4X1f for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:17:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl) Received: from poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (cloudzeeland.nl [10.10.10.36]) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2083826B for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:17:06 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1586780227; bh=4g3KQI0RhNgOKfxEqsqov5boSx77wZQSQ8eCfRSgrfs=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=aEhji6FpFsj5BN2wC88WyZn+EogiVk+n286Ryjnn7rxSs39e2k40U5CNO+8Jl8qWW 9UxfCA3woOPQqZK+nEgDqOZkCsKRaaFzkD9T+cr/hlnS7/pENM7ga1cnKc6K2Hz8r7 NITKnqc8A1iO2i5OD46JlRe86I+raj1svlZCCjEw= Received: from [10.10.10.34] (pion1.rpicloud.nl [82.176.127.71]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8BF34826A for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:17:06 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cloudzeeland.nl; s=cloud; t=1586780226; bh=4g3KQI0RhNgOKfxEqsqov5boSx77wZQSQ8eCfRSgrfs=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=VJynlpd81VU8R4qa5amQAfoMGrnafbRbPezVVXs3o8VEBrxdHjAacSCQo7TbwwV8t 4zTEctoyVAULGLvVzbeEJ68HYP9mjt79H5K4x73/cToz+53fTBv9upih9/G4M8sCNy vqkYIlSXBBu5pqa4zVJS0Dv7Bldj6A9Uzu/9PpVM= Subject: Re: Cron config for ipfw table From: Jos Chrispijn To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: Organization: Userland rocks! Message-ID: <375eb692-1b73-2426-3522-4a100f41db32@cloudzeeland.nl> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:17:07 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP on poseidon.cloudzeeland.nl X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49170N3dK6z4X1f X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=aEhji6Fp; dkim=pass header.d=cloudzeeland.nl header.s=cloud header.b=VJynlpd8; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl designates 83.161.133.58 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bsduser@cloudzeeland.nl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.93 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cloudzeeland.nl:s=cloud]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cloudzeeland.nl:+]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.43)[ip: (-9.79), ipnet: 83.160.0.0/14(-2.35), asn: 3265(-0.04), country: NL(0.03)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3265, ipnet:83.160.0.0/14, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 12:17:09 -0000 On 10-4-20 13:51, Jos Chrispijn wrote: > I have added a line to my crontab that defines running a script on reboot: Thanks all for your response(s). They surely raised my learning curve. Issue has been solved as I used a wrong command in my crontab (thnx Remy). ./jos From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 15:49:44 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26B12C17D8 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:49:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from terryjwalker1@hotmail.com) Received: from n6.nabble.com (n6.nabble.com [162.255.23.37]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491Cjg6knwz3HCK for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:49:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from terryjwalker1@hotmail.com) Received: from n6.nabble.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by n6.nabble.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD9FE1630A6CA for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:40:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 08:40:03 -0700 (MST) From: dopey To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <1586792403699-0.post@n6.nabble.com> Subject: problem installing freenas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491Cjg6knwz3HCK X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=hotmail.com (policy=none); spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 162.255.23.37 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of terryjwalker1@hotmail.com) smtp.mailfrom=terryjwalker1@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.60 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.997,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.99), ipnet: 162.255.20.0/22(3.80), asn: 21624(0.04), country: US(-0.05)]; VIOLATED_DIRECT_SPF(3.50)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[37.23.255.162.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:21624, ipnet:162.255.20.0/22, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[hotmail.com : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:49:44 -0000 hi i am trying to install freenas onto a diy nas system. i intend to use a 16gb flash drive to boot from. I have tried installing several different versions of freenas but always gey a problem once installed. i get message that primary partition on ada0 the flash drive is corrupt it then tries to mount from secondary partition but fails to mount. i have used gpart from freenas shell to investigate gpart show ada0 results 40 31250532 ada0 gpt (14G) [corrupt] 40 1024 1 freenas-boot (512k) 1064 31227904 2 freebsd-xfs (14G) 31228968 21424 -free- (10g) as a linus newbie not sure what to do now to correct this problem so thought i would reach out to those in the know -- Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-questions-f3696945.html From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 16:02:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0865E2C1ED4 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:02:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shamim.shahriar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qv1-xf29.google.com (mail-qv1-xf29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491Czs6lvYz3J5T for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:02:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shamim.shahriar@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qv1-xf29.google.com with SMTP id k9so4600699qvw.7 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:02:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EPCDC0FFKXioXH0CHrX05sz7kc/L9fIYhKoQbcYJOdo=; b=aRx19d8Len91a/LDa4G4A9r0U32WGEciPdJ6XElCbMsHutbWOBNI69g3pUdr7K85Gl UqnACi3SUvlUPYZjEUvcPCOCq8A8QK7MJ2DWBofAoN1iR6J70xMX4/YBSAadZJAuh1u2 7PAVlBiiID4Qog1Mk7F7Q8Py7s4XNIjJvHhXX2pisygu54lLc5jJQCvnL9pJ+jbGYegR AUI4NO894II9rUr/QUKWEDtqxQbmPjsH8Z6HIjgO7BCEy00gpjzr3Vt3nv9fpyC9ch43 8SVPrvPR/Enjydrw6oMiuOYfk+6+85EDzOqSFFkfQdQUiIdcmnASvDnJyPaSIegXLGqU 24gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EPCDC0FFKXioXH0CHrX05sz7kc/L9fIYhKoQbcYJOdo=; b=Iz7PFPBWQPCqiWgZ14QGnBwNTP07oDxaIZ/iYUQWwne2tDZ57RkVpHIfkytlGQz4we 48FlruvLeL8ENDagYTdFcdPZ3r680jgALxmIFQXe1x7r1K3Uk7LgGQa0voCcoCIwjhWf 0vRyDyTwvINhu6veVqs91+tVEYxJW+9LTPrUe4nTEmg2f7xCoSp6i3oY+q7dNF+XcQxG j+JQCuseuZrlsDgFI6D/AhbFvLbBzSVh53URVnTx5HI3/w0BuZEXojOQgvmhpg/8D/d+ hIQM5IUo+3wkTD1qLotTcuIwzBxwPS9oHSYU1N22ZBV/5SHbcYsjOUB9IScetouXAeMe xrUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZWdsmEyI21tOPcn8LGa4yB2t5Iaq/+pkz4sactgOKdESKZKuBS aHUON1xvyZcN3MvARrdxso8zLfUnY2HKwCPYJw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK3xJeOHp1v6aD1NGTm/x3XNQkTtMdHzfhUZEpSASJ0+OQGOPnI+d+GtrgNkh9Sv0Iz/had70UBY8PTrpB6FyE= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:b71a:: with SMTP id t26mr17772043qvd.215.1586793720880; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:02:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1586792403699-0.post@n6.nabble.com> In-Reply-To: <1586792403699-0.post@n6.nabble.com> From: Shamim Shahriar Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:01:52 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: problem installing freenas To: dopey Cc: "freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491Czs6lvYz3J5T X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=aRx19d8L; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of shamimshahriar@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=shamimshahriar@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[hotmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-5.75), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[9.2.f.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:02:03 -0000 Hi, Could you please confirm what steps you are following/using to install FreeNAS? also, are you sure the a. First partition is freenas-boot? b. second partition is 'xfs'? Or are these typos? Regards On Mon, 13 Apr 2020, 16:50 dopey, wrote: > hi > > i am trying to install freenas onto a diy nas system. > i intend to use a 16gb flash drive to boot from. > I have tried installing several different versions of freenas but always > gey > a problem once installed. > > i get message that primary partition on ada0 the flash drive is corrupt > it then tries to mount from secondary partition but fails to mount. > > i have used gpart from freenas shell to investigate > > gpart show ada0 > > results > 40 31250532 ada0 gpt (14G) [corrupt] > 40 1024 1 freenas-boot (512k) > 1064 31227904 2 freebsd-xfs (14G) > 31228968 21424 -free- (10g) > > > as a linus newbie not sure what to do now to correct this problem > so thought i would reach out to those in the know > > > > -- > Sent from: > http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-questions-f3696945.html > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 16:17:39 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41B62C2404 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:17:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from terryjwalker1@hotmail.com) Received: from n6.nabble.com (n6.nabble.com [162.255.23.37]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491DKt6C3fz3KJ5 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:17:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from terryjwalker1@hotmail.com) Received: from n6.nabble.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by n6.nabble.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C81E1630DFE4 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:17:38 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 09:17:38 -0700 (MST) From: dopey To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <1586794658311-0.post@n6.nabble.com> In-Reply-To: References: <1586792403699-0.post@n6.nabble.com> Subject: Re: problem installing freenas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491DKt6C3fz3KJ5 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=hotmail.com (policy=none); spf=softfail (mx1.freebsd.org: 162.255.23.37 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of terryjwalker1@hotmail.com) smtp.mailfrom=terryjwalker1@hotmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.60 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; R_SPF_SOFTFAIL(0.00)[~all]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.996,0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.98), ipnet: 162.255.20.0/22(3.79), asn: 21624(0.04), country: US(-0.05)]; VIOLATED_DIRECT_SPF(3.50)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[37.23.255.162.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:21624, ipnet:162.255.20.0/22, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[hotmail.com]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[hotmail.com : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:17:39 -0000 hi manage to sort by following: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/corrupt-ada0-error-on-install.49204/ thanks for response -- Sent from: http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/freebsd-questions-f3696945.html From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 21:24:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CF62A9999 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:24:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz) Received: from forward101p.mail.yandex.net (forward101p.mail.yandex.net [77.88.28.101]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491M7R2Xr0z4Dxn for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:24:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz) Received: from mxback1j.mail.yandex.net (mxback1j.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1619::10a]) by forward101p.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 4007B264244E for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 00:24:00 +0300 (MSK) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by mxback1j.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id pcZBaj5Zoh-NxPGgron; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 00:23:59 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.kz; s=mail; t=1586813039; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; h=Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; b=DEW31ZOXi0LBHJji8R0M8759oTVjTDDMEqeGa6Q/dHIbRq+ky2cN6TCMECW+Ei9/V wd+jkkqLdWfViC1PL6rjbGACdZVS8Qa6DNJTVN1wko73Jkb2WbOCaHRiQmMeXUV/SK J5Iqdw73EPBpFBqgsOtfCoDVwJLGq77aJiuwGrvo= Received: by iva1-ad256f95df1b.qloud-c.yandex.net with HTTP; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 00:23:59 +0300 From: Nikita Stepanov Envelope-From: nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: How to run Steam for Linux on freebsd? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Yamail [ http://yandex.ru ] 5.0 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 03:23:59 +0600 Message-Id: <7043761586813039@iva1-ad256f95df1b.qloud-c.yandex.net> Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491M7R2Xr0z4Dxn X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yandex.kz header.s=mail header.b=DEW31ZOX; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=yandex.kz; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz designates 77.88.28.101 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yandex.kz:s=mail]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:77.88.0.0/18]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; IP_SCORE(-3.69)[ip: (-9.77), ipnet: 77.88.0.0/18(-4.86), asn: 13238(-3.85), country: RU(0.01)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yandex.kz:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yandex.kz,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[101.28.88.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:77.88.0.0/18, country:RU]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:24:05 -0000 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 22:01:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E112AA993 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 22:01:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbe-mlist@magnetkern.de) Received: from sapphire.magnetkern.de (sapphire.magnetkern.de [185.228.139.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491MyS2v10z4Gr7 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 22:01:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbe-mlist@magnetkern.de) Received: from titanium (p5DD45C70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.212.92.112]) by sapphire.magnetkern.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E00261AEF for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 22:01:07 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 00:01:12 +0200 From: Jan Behrens To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to run Steam for Linux on freebsd? Message-Id: <20200414000112.164024cf328ebf53c591236f@magnetkern.de> In-Reply-To: <7043761586813039@iva1-ad256f95df1b.qloud-c.yandex.net> References: <7043761586813039@iva1-ad256f95df1b.qloud-c.yandex.net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491MyS2v10z4Gr7 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jbe-mlist@magnetkern.de designates 185.228.139.199 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jbe-mlist@magnetkern.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.90 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.77)[-0.768,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.08)[-0.082,0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[magnetkern.de]; IP_SCORE(0.45)[ipnet: 185.228.136.0/22(2.89), asn: 197540(-0.63), country: DE(-0.02)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[112.92.212.93.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:197540, ipnet:185.228.136.0/22, country:DE]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 22:01:21 -0000 Dear Nikita, do you want to run graphical applications or game servers? For installing and updating game servers, I installed SteamCMD and had to do the following changes to my system: pkg install linux-c7 ca_root_nss /etc/rc.conf: linux_enable="YES" /etc/fstab: linprocfs /compat/linux/proc linprocfs rw 0 0 linsysfs /compat/linux/sys linsysfs rw 0 0 tmpfs /compat/linux/dev/shm tmpfs rw,mode=1777 0 0 After installing the game server through the Steam command line client, I could start it directly (without using Steam). Hope that helps. Regards, Jan From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 07:19:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1AD12B744B for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:19:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz) Received: from forward501p.mail.yandex.net (forward501p.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491cL20DfDz3H9Z for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:19:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz) Received: from mxback6q.mail.yandex.net (mxback6q.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:c0e:42:0:640:9de5:975f]) by forward501p.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 6820D35002ED; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:19:01 +0300 (MSK) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by mxback6q.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id 2AKweNUhEa-J0Y4J4oD; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:19:00 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.kz; s=mail; t=1586848740; bh=XA3D6v0BB6HgZnRptvbRfL8WfGdPjv4wV626CcPHiPo=; h=Message-Id:Subject:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To:From; b=PNSb88namqwdiOVvbtxhr72g9l0IY5oLPowgDn9esg4wRsHhVK+e/ZsqMYh11CoEF RJsPV4MpTVA+SbNZ5RivHbi1lmIy502t+YzQffyYcT0B/n3UWqsddTKIWeCLDXxqCp Dtc2OC+C98AScOT+tkBIIfRGp3Soil08FTJLjvpc= Received: by vla1-a1bfe7298e26.qloud-c.yandex.net with HTTP; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:19:00 +0300 From: Nikita Stepanov Envelope-From: nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru To: Jan Behrens , "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" In-Reply-To: <20200414000112.164024cf328ebf53c591236f@magnetkern.de> References: <7043761586813039@iva1-ad256f95df1b.qloud-c.yandex.net> <20200414000112.164024cf328ebf53c591236f@magnetkern.de> Subject: Re: How to run Steam for Linux on freebsd? X-Mailer: Yamail [ http://yandex.ru ] 5.0 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 13:19:00 +0600 Message-Id: <11865741586848740@vla1-a1bfe7298e26.qloud-c.yandex.net> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491cL20DfDz3H9Z X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yandex.kz header.s=mail header.b=PNSb88na; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=yandex.kz; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz designates 2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:120 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yandex.kz:s=mail]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a02:6b8:0:1000::/52]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yandex.kz,none]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-3.64)[ip: (-9.60), ipnet: 2a02:6b8::/32(-4.77), asn: 13238(-3.85), country: RU(0.01)]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yandex.kz:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.2.1.0.7.b.8.0.0.0.0.0.1.4.7.2.2.7.4.1.0.0.0.0.8.b.6.0.2.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MIME_HTML_ONLY(0.20)[]; MIME_BASE64_TEXT(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:2a02:6b8::/32, country:RU]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:19:07 -0000 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 07:23:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED8B2B792A for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:23:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz) Received: from forward501j.mail.yandex.net (forward501j.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:801:2::111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491cR44dRzz3Hkl for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:23:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz) Received: from mxback11q.mail.yandex.net (mxback11q.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:c0e:1b4:0:640:1f0c:10f2]) by forward501j.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id EFD1333801E0 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:23:24 +0300 (MSK) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by mxback11q.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id 4cafqWX7i5-NO6W3Jdw; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:23:24 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.kz; s=mail; t=1586849004; bh=2E3N7UOdqGEltPWYBlHaz/SamcfJ9e0dJPHPyeuahMU=; h=Message-Id:Subject:In-Reply-To:Date:References:To:From; b=N3HaOPxPO1yrRwatW9x5sjCwGgc7/jw8Mhs+kaydfuKqshs9QK9dihcj+VrdMxcA0 HsNnzBQwhG8e9fQ4ilirkKvnuGTAoG0Mv/5yAtO6RbjTpk3T6VrsBJ46PIkjrML4r4 MK3WnZRV14KiXYo4GiN9GQfKwgzeENGZ4//sVmjg= Received: by vla1-a1bfe7298e26.qloud-c.yandex.net with HTTP; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:23:24 +0300 From: Nikita Stepanov Envelope-From: nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" In-Reply-To: <20200414000112.164024cf328ebf53c591236f@magnetkern.de> References: <7043761586813039@iva1-ad256f95df1b.qloud-c.yandex.net> <20200414000112.164024cf328ebf53c591236f@magnetkern.de> Subject: Re: How to run Steam for Linux on freebsd? X-Mailer: Yamail [ http://yandex.ru ] 5.0 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 13:23:24 +0600 Message-Id: <11891751586849004@vla1-a1bfe7298e26.qloud-c.yandex.net> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491cR44dRzz3Hkl X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yandex.kz header.s=mail header.b=N3HaOPxP; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=yandex.kz; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz designates 2a02:6b8:0:801:2::111 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=nikitastepanov113@yandex.kz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.32 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yandex.kz:s=mail]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2a02:6b8:0::/52:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; IP_SCORE(-3.62)[ip: (-9.50), ipnet: 2a02:6b8::/32(-4.76), asn: 13238(-3.85), country: RU(0.01)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yandex.kz:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yandex.kz,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.0.1.0.8.0.0.0.0.0.8.b.6.0.2.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_HTML_ONLY(0.20)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:2a02:6b8::/32, country:RU]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:23:29 -0000 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 07:48:05 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4742B83E4 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:48:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru) Received: from forward101o.mail.yandex.net (forward101o.mail.yandex.net [37.140.190.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491czS34h8z3JyT for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:48:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru) Received: from mxback28o.mail.yandex.net (mxback28o.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::79]) by forward101o.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 9D09F3C0218B for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:48:01 +0300 (MSK) Received: from myt5-95c1fb78270f.qloud-c.yandex.net (myt5-95c1fb78270f.qloud-c.yandex.net [2a02:6b8:c12:1725:0:640:95c1:fb78]) by mxback28o.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id HZRrt6Ursg-m1oWNAM0; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:48:01 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1586850481; bh=aEZjTtdZyUV/IgWTnF3fUpvIDPoFoI+vEcnbpddRhXI=; h=Reply-To:In-Reply-To:Subject:To:From:References:Date:Message-ID; b=HCb1l3clLFUQcJnGlE2r4v3yIi/j1TK4xLshSdGJIi10KBjxfW/v8WWo5Rfuc5xJW jwN7LTtgAHtOEn+21aWzHviCp3wOLtsaQlu+wCJjLONboHWo/s1FJ5O6Z1LmadPDQ5 YgVZf5kTNa+264+ZYGGGc2gkyBEwyZcxo7ooqYCA= Received: by myt5-95c1fb78270f.qloud-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id 56ls6dc8wp-m12GilFt; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:48:01 +0300 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client certificate not present) X-Mailru-Internal-From: nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru From: nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru To: =?UTF-8?B?ZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM=?= Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmVbMl06IEhvdyB0byBydW4gU3RlYW0gZm9yIExpbnV4IG9uIGZyZWVic2Q/?= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mail.Ru Mailer 1.0 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:48:00 +0300 X-Letter-Fingerprint: aOrF0f89SQ1wyEpkpN92OTQv6Pt4MZeV X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Reply-To: nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru Message-ID: <1586850480.579989553@f492.i.mail.ru> In-Reply-To: <20200414000112.164024cf328ebf53c591236f@magnetkern.de> References: <7043761586813039@iva1-ad256f95df1b.qloud-c.yandex.net> <20200414000112.164024cf328ebf53c591236f@magnetkern.de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kq8+OzVozcFQziTi/Zi098oNK9gy3Irm5KFwLuDg60je4lC+GbTj0M8KbzpOmgsB7wYP6nnel8wfEHQiZAetlEg7qy07ISeqrIhHPnkjzdBvoakpJyTw== X-Mailru-Internal-Actual: A:0.94977775714656 X-Mailru-Internal-Auth: pass X-Mailru-MI: 900 X-Mailru-Sender: C0046C09925F1A670E3727F0A47CCB441610D31D30213EEC3416121F80C09C41EAAFC15D042EEF2731BCB71B7FCD062BC8922FFB12FEF24AF9E43344557497D6D08FAE871ABB776AB1B34630A7249EA067EA787935ED9F1B X-Mras: Ok X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491czS34h8z3JyT X-Spamd-Bar: + Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=yandex.ru header.s=mail header.b=HCb1l3cl; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=yandex.ru; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru designates 37.140.190.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru X-Spamd-Result: default: False [1.10 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru]; SUBJ_EXCESS_BASE64(1.50)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:37.140.128.0/18:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yandex.ru]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yandex.ru:+]; MIME_BASE64_TEXT(0.10)[]; HAS_X_PRIO_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_EXCESS_BASE64(1.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yandex.ru,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yandex.ru]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13238, ipnet:37.140.128.0/18, country:RU]; R_PARTS_DIFFER(0.00)[50.0%]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yandex.ru.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yandex.ru:s=mail]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[yandex.ru]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.67), ipnet: 37.140.128.0/18(-4.88), asn: 13238(-3.85), country: RU(0.01)]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[181.190.140.37.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:48:05 -0000 CkdyYXBoaWNhbCBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnM= From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 11:40:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 100042BDD2F for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:40:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491k8651NYz43wH for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:40:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id 103so12447259otv.0 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:40:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yz9LeZojar3+Gtzg5ou6WDgeRyLZldF0/sVWStD2jp4=; b=eUIoD0W+aLoh6MH0vUkwWMNnlhyKylGN9d9snBbBT1g1XXFIqXHk1wXWt8WcHnqGZs p9/gmEFl4u3kb96M68XfyCs5qVVts2FnUmkpEDid8Z1FogNcGnGsrVxk50KMN9KtnWBj Q/fcG+xx1ODTegGUOGbDBCRZeOfwR3MyvJbwhjZitSqnap6OGml2KU4kImYGns7sQ23d f9QvGWCGTE8J9OMeaj47KpNRz6/MXgW4JUdXP+stR/ofNCEZZ/3bKATg3g9CDWLakpkK p9OnkJ72pHhT4pzOu6usYLRbbIKwy2VizKiIHUqCM7XHGS1B6NsLyOgKS+ZylWfMySqN n2bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yz9LeZojar3+Gtzg5ou6WDgeRyLZldF0/sVWStD2jp4=; b=Go3m1HR3sptXqs96XdBqV211hWW+Ns2dxHpqqth1vSsoUvvuRdNpPx9DrJcxoo2esN HsUlxdvRg7fUmOIlWbVJj6SUMUru8PMrzJ0+4nzPWNfgQLfLufzYp3NoeyJjtIxodTus xU31qHpAM7EK/OZNy5fUAPczyc7OlRNw5Wq4uxNIAdf0l5n2ptCA4I7Co8uB8F+Z5UIa zIX9SlZtHSnHI0zU17tt40OAEKsiI8cgdFerzDF+S2tlm6UoDQ+B37r5poApp3FCdxST G/hApT0OBwnhtioIsyn6yLYKrdP73fI5RxMWBHaFSazq8MNGUw9aSD5ESAbVNauSNDth HjUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY+ygxDVHJKnrTdyXTkGz+2fwa/u/OjiiXIwTEIpm/VtEPzYB58 E3ILYOFW3jyXFFmhiMcGGEcBIp03pAs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLr+hRyJ9WGLbwiqeuC5abxBudGtY9WxgQkzEf1ZABIy9hNWHSFv0TWjGVUFRFHHMQm7vMsbQ== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3e4b:: with SMTP id h11mr16711304otg.252.1586864452567; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f169.google.com (mail-oi1-f169.google.com. [209.85.167.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w11sm5533285otp.41.2020.04.14.04.40.51 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f169.google.com with SMTP id j16so10113069oih.10 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:40:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:f4d0:: with SMTP id s199mr8772345oih.161.1586864451215; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:40:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7043761586813039@iva1-ad256f95df1b.qloud-c.yandex.net> <20200414000112.164024cf328ebf53c591236f@magnetkern.de> <1586850480.579989553@f492.i.mail.ru> In-Reply-To: <1586850480.579989553@f492.i.mail.ru> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 13:40:27 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Re[2]: How to run Steam for Linux on freebsd? To: nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru Cc: freebsd-questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491k8651NYz43wH X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=eUIoD0W+; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.06 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[a.2.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yandex.ru]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.76)[ip: (-8.01), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:40:56 -0000 On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:48 AM wrote: > Graphical applications You may want to take a look at HOMURA which aims to run Windows games on FreeBSD but I did not use it so cant tell how it works :-) https://github.com/the-homura-project/homura Also if you look at GitHub for instance there are several Steam Linux installers / ports for FreeBSD that could be a good place to start :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 11:57:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC772BE295 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:57:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491kWl6cpBz44pZ for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:57:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id x11so12466893otp.6 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:57:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=HRJ8zDXEbuTK4qMurALS5inL11jxb6Gpx7RZFmiC2xk=; b=eaSLGVlS6MCFIRZ/E6SymCyTTl9g6Utu3SulPE/UpDLYXIXEUnZasjVvTrSlBXFBf/ IVVOfwof/YWMkbthDWNnSG41eHf316iOiMcmVD3C9xvf1jHfpTLkqvDC7V9TzVYwabwU eFDjY3cqup2eF4THti1EyhVIcrYGD48adM3WYkLPhjYZVj499An7wDYMErM/y76mSS4q GCVRH1iZH799be6AMxrSHbzYSEeSa2im4v9+CvaK261QmPRCRw740Znq1WYFLoguWN9J fPIxLkhLha9JioQxg/wLVMg9YbUNgTPC5XqXKgz9cqxux6LLkuid7dYcl7UcCQXIf2+j flyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=HRJ8zDXEbuTK4qMurALS5inL11jxb6Gpx7RZFmiC2xk=; b=Il4J1e3gUuBY/Go09fHpffaR/9IXAHrrMLea8w1q+Xm5Feuyg0LgGrzaIzvvgEa0ac F+4SeYKozZ1pq0NKcFL+/Orl7H46YGzE87WA5AzCWQXEptEXSQPOUJiVbx4jCOgQ8EZ2 FrVTKFKl3VYo0Mv5E3ESvEuZ3JlIHvtUuyybN7YipuHar6dLEZkh/jYhHd80GDDgZyKh dmtWjNbreYrYaIXu8C/L0KDRvUPqtqZ+zXesPWyZPpx+7eTLt5cr8KwjwJErT0pKmrnO 2DT+D9l01Saz5HMFVto6nEcLG9VOc6PjOPQcBbvX99hwuMBsf9JrxMoZSVH2FydWr/2U iY7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYGCqtVrumpCkbXG4Bot9rrLNcZDymejuFV5+7cmUAjA41XqF0z OGbWSg5QfgU/FE/lrBORvQJXyvmFOeI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLNnTLFUlOozJASU8/0pKGheyjmq8psyHPJSxDWICz2nMhFIjsJSrwBuYZXqaMdrJIdgjEBCw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:22eb:: with SMTP id t11mr2848828otc.116.1586865474495; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f180.google.com (mail-oi1-f180.google.com. [209.85.167.180]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n2sm3312577oom.18.2020.04.14.04.57.53 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f180.google.com with SMTP id o25so10122150oic.11; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:f4d0:: with SMTP id s199mr8811962oih.161.1586865473075; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 04:57:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 13:57:29 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491kWl6cpBz44pZ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=eaSLGVlS; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::329) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.18 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[9.2.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.88)[ip: (-8.60), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:57:56 -0000 Hello world :-) I have noticed some bad thing with the X11 Intel driver (12.1-RELEASE AMD64 with latest intel driver from 2018???) - it eats out all of the RAM, then it eats all of the SWAP, then system gets unusable for anything except hard reset :-( This happens when it works together with latest DRM i915KMS. On hard computer use that means workstation gets useless in around 15 minutes. Closing applications does not free the memory resources, once it get some some it never returns. I have set the UXA as the default for i5-5300U CPU. On the other hand the DRM i915kms works fine with SCFB on the same load and hardware. I am working on DRM + i915kms + SCFB so far. This is why I suspect problem with X11-INTEL driver? Maybe it does not like latest Xorg changes? I also sometimes get this DRM warning on the dmesg: [drm] Reducing the compressed framebuffer size. This may lead to less power savings than a non-reduced-size. Try to increase stolen memory size if available in BIOS. Did anyone observe such problem too? Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 12:15:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7932BF182; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:15:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from mail.daemonic.se (mail.daemonic.se [176.58.89.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491kvd4Ll7z460J; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:15:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from cid.daemonic.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491kvS6yW1z3m97; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:15:00 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=daemonic.se; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-language:content-type :content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:date :message-id:from:from:references:subject:subject:received :received; s=20151023; t=1586866500; bh=xmR0JLvxROIZ9d1PakdZtkdQ oGwtds6HeJlCRn0IIGY=; b=eOSbbNw4BoArbO90Lw75Ba1DsXQVBpuOf4aYaAlZ jOyd93y1trfAQ8YO9oezK+I/VbGYe35S+YPMrommXU8C5T8IvHOPyyWggryG1Psh CPDf9y7mvyXmi16HPO5wfaoRelwYwgaKjgJ4Ogl+Cbf4AQuc/5DMJyVLB+dqTcj/ BXE= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daemonic.se Received: from mail.daemonic.se ([IPv6:::1]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by cid.daemonic.se (mailscanner.daemonic.se [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10587) with ESMTPS id YMkRamdKPFwF; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:15:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from garnet.daemonic.se (host-95-192-128-200.mobileonline.telia.com [95.192.128.200]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 491kvS2FH0z3lbm; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:15:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Tomasz CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org References: From: Niclas Zeising Message-ID: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 14:14:59 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491kvd4Ll7z460J X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=daemonic.se header.s=20151023 header.b=eOSbbNw4; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=daemonic.se; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of zeising@daemonic.se designates 176.58.89.161 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=zeising@daemonic.se X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[daemonic.se:s=20151023]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[daemonic.se:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[daemonic.se,none]; IP_SCORE(-3.70)[ip: (-9.75), ipnet: 176.58.89.0/24(-4.87), asn: 36236(-3.81), country: US(-0.05)]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[200.128.192.95.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:176.58.89.0/24, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:15:11 -0000 On 2020-04-14 13:57, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Hello world :-) > > I have noticed some bad thing with the X11 Intel driver (12.1-RELEASE > AMD64 with latest intel driver from 2018???) - it eats out all of the > RAM, then it eats all of the SWAP, then system gets unusable for > anything except hard reset :-( This happens when it works together > with latest DRM i915KMS. On hard computer use that means workstation > gets useless in around 15 minutes. Closing applications does not free > the memory resources, once it get some some it never returns. Which driver are you talking about? xf86-video-intel or drm-fbsd12.0-kmod? > > I have set the UXA as the default for i5-5300U CPU. > > On the other hand the DRM i915kms works fine with SCFB on the same > load and hardware. I am working on DRM + i915kms + SCFB so far. If you are using SCFB, you are not using i915kms. > > This is why I suspect problem with X11-INTEL driver? Maybe it does not > like latest Xorg changes? > > I also sometimes get this DRM warning on the dmesg: > [drm] Reducing the compressed framebuffer size. This may lead to less > power savings than a non-reduced-size. Try to increase stolen memory > size if available in BIOS. This is unrelated to this issue. Have you tried using the modesetting xorg driver instead? Regards -- Niclas From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 15:17:36 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA182C2DA0 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:17:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from FreeBSD@chroot.pl) Received: from mail.apsz.com.pl (mail.apsz.com.pl [91.217.18.46]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491py754SVz4L4V for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:17:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from FreeBSD@chroot.pl) Received: from chroot.pl (89-74-178-152.dynamic.chello.pl [89.74.178.152]) by mail.apsz.com.pl (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D32CE7465 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 17:09:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: replace disk in zpool - solved DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=chroot.pl; s=mail; t=1586876981; bh=tnNJfMvhc2jtTAF4jigryuIZfxuFlMR1ayF9AS8T42Q=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=OlYKjplcex+GSZA4cmb/kpmUlrW+n1Qc7hKevgG2qzCxAR2cVkWWMBHyf8gvWAXH0 t0FJXmUyGLUC24tcY8XPVqB08on1918eN077GQxrqHEcaNvGrX4VimtD23QOyHgpYY e41AmUK+7WOzf45mUfjEBPJhrySwqe4vdrsyqX+ztMmoLdPnV7GsNnL4p+Vz4hV8i9 CVjupN3eSfNUhyOFtn01Hk4ffUASWRpSiA7us8/mE2TajDHo6V+i7wvyGvmvlPdVA2 BfMzZs92FmcZ0MhdwKMb4pmN7P1E01C9d5+0BFE7AIWfH8d741hEKjZ/R6FcuR9CyS NKOD4zyRiXk6w== To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <18a94704-5411-3b44-a525-2ae50121a467@holgerdanske.com> <4a8d409e-ecac-77c8-3ad9-025aefdfb4ef@holgerdanske.com> <20200325081814.GK35528@mithril.foucry.net> <25828f1e-8a9c-6e05-aa62-eefc734ae412@chroot.pl> <07f3de58-b1ac-d1c1-e794-c455f13cc79c@holgerdanske.com> From: Lukasz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 17:09:38 +0200 User-Agent: WebMail MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <07f3de58-b1ac-d1c1-e794-c455f13cc79c@holgerdanske.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: pl-PL Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: Yes, score=4.1 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_50,KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS, RDNS_DYNAMIC autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on mail.apsz.com.pl X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.102.2 at mail.apsz.com.pl X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Flag: YES X-Spam-Report: * 2.0 BAYES_50 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 40 to 60% * [score: 0.5000] * 1.7 RDNS_DYNAMIC Delivered to internal network by host with * dynamic-looking rDNS * 0.4 KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS Relay HELO differs from its IP's reverse DNS X-Spam-Level: **** X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491py754SVz4L4V X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=chroot.pl header.s=mail header.b=OlYKjplc; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=chroot.pl; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of FreeBSD@chroot.pl designates 91.217.18.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=FreeBSD@chroot.pl X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.46 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[chroot.pl:s=mail]; SPAM_FLAG(5.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:91.217.18.46:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.14)[0.145,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[152.178.74.89.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[chroot.pl:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[chroot.pl,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[46.18.217.91.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.71)[-0.711,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(0.01)[country: PL(0.06)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:51426, ipnet:91.217.18.0/23, country:PL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:17:36 -0000 Hello, information about corrupted files is at the end of 'zpool status' output. I perform backup by zfs snapshot and zfs send/recv (incremental snapshots) to an other server. Saying restore form backup I mean copy correct files from previous snapshot. Regards, Lukasz On 4/1/20 23:43, David Christensen wrote: > On 2020-04-01 11:13, Lukasz wrote: > >> On 3/30/20 21:02, David Christensen wrote: > >>> On 2020-03-30 11:06, Lukasz wrote: > >>>> this behavior was due to errors in zpool. > >>> Solved how?  Could you please expand upon errors in zpool and how >>> you got past them? > >> I restored corrupted files from backup. > That is something I would like to learn how to do on ZFS.  Could you please elaborate: > > - How did you determine what files were corrupt? > > - How do you perform backups? > > - How did you restore the corrupted files? > > > David > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 19:05:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80CF82C7228 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:05:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [IPv6:2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "xray.he.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491w0Z3RK6z4bNS for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:05:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:04:47 -0700 Subject: Re: replace disk in zpool - solved To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <18a94704-5411-3b44-a525-2ae50121a467@holgerdanske.com> <4a8d409e-ecac-77c8-3ad9-025aefdfb4ef@holgerdanske.com> <20200325081814.GK35528@mithril.foucry.net> <25828f1e-8a9c-6e05-aa62-eefc734ae412@chroot.pl> <07f3de58-b1ac-d1c1-e794-c455f13cc79c@holgerdanske.com> From: David Christensen Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:04:46 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491w0Z3RK6z4bNS X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 2001:470:0:19b::b869:801b) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.79 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.985,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.72)[ip: (-0.29), ipnet: 2001:470::/32(-4.66), asn: 6939(-3.60), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.989,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:2001:470::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:05:03 -0000 On 2020-04-14 08:09, Lukasz wrote: > On 4/1/20 23:43, David Christensen wrote: >> On 2020-04-01 11:13, Lukasz wrote: >>> On 3/30/20 21:02, David Christensen wrote: >>>> On 2020-03-30 11:06, Lukasz wrote: >>>>> this behavior was due to errors in zpool. >>>> Solved how? Could you please expand upon errors in zpool and >>>> how you got past them? >>> I restored corrupted files from backup. >> That is something I would like to learn how to do on ZFS. Could >> you please elaborate: >> >> - How did you determine what files were corrupt? >> >> - How do you perform backups? >> >> - How did you restore the corrupted files? > information about corrupted files is at the end of 'zpool status' > output. I perform backup by zfs snapshot and zfs send/recv > (incremental> snapshots) to an other server. Saying restore form > backup I mean copy correct files from previous snapshot. Okay. I also backup ZFS filesystems via snapshots and incremental replication. Looking at your previous post: On 2020-03-24 14:15, Lukasz wrote: > # zpool status -v mypool > errors: Permanent errors have been detected in the following files: > mypool/XXXXXXXXXXXX And this Oracle document: https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E18752_01/html/819-5461/gbbwl.html#gbctx So, the corruption in your ZFS pool was a file in a dataset that was not mounted (?). Recovery consisted of mounting the dataset and using cp(1) to copy a non-corrupt version of the file to the path of the corrupt file (?). David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 19:53:40 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5618D2C85C4; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:53:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from mail.daemonic.se (mail.daemonic.se [176.58.89.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491x4g1KxGz4fw8; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:53:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from cid.daemonic.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491x4d3w8zz3m7h; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:53:37 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=daemonic.se; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-language:content-type :content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:date :message-id:from:from:references:subject:subject:received :received; s=20151023; t=1586894016; bh=VHETH9MWUdHpgpazKQOYPEcm jIv1YALujM07IZbKpFk=; b=B58aJAeFNXf7VR6UrmsQN1wdffOJXvKoV4J/ERnS cmaxtuBfAPTYCu3gKxK5DNNsPGyM8ivw6bP2HpgryLikXEXMqgmgGMa3qIJlkK+O jJC1EG+x4qaw9FrxHCzz7FXF/vRBbzpSNb8NheAhiqCXzvVjcmz4e7ERnUeAS7bX dJI= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daemonic.se Received: from mail.daemonic.se ([127.0.0.1]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by cid.daemonic.se (mailscanner.daemonic.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10587) with ESMTPS id UnhJAKsNeJ0K; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:53:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from garnet.daemonic.se (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:dca9:201:382e:c91d:9d7b:e6c7]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 491x4c2ndrz3lbm; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:53:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Kevin Oberman Cc: Tomasz CEDRO , FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> From: Niclas Zeising Message-ID: <9cb25e12-0081-3e1b-a105-1148661ddeca@daemonic.se> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 21:53:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491x4g1KxGz4fw8 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=daemonic.se header.s=20151023 header.b=B58aJAeF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=daemonic.se; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of zeising@daemonic.se designates 176.58.89.161 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=zeising@daemonic.se X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[daemonic.se:s=20151023]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-3.70)[ip: (-9.75), ipnet: 176.58.89.0/24(-4.88), asn: 36236(-3.81), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[daemonic.se:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[daemonic.se,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:176.58.89.0/24, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:53:40 -0000 On 2020-04-14 21:38, Kevin Oberman wrote: > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 5:15 AM Niclas Zeising=20 > > wr= ote: >=20 > On 2020-04-14 13:57, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > Hello world :-) > > > > I have noticed some bad thing with the X11 Intel driver (12.1-RE= LEASE > > AMD64 with latest intel driver from 2018???) - it eats out all o= f the > > RAM, then it eats all of the SWAP, then system gets unusable for > > anything except hard reset :-( This happens when it works togeth= er > > with latest DRM i915KMS. On hard computer use that means worksta= tion > > gets useless in around 15 minutes. Closing applications does not= free > > the memory resources, once it get some some it never returns. >=20 > Which driver are you talking about? xf86-video-intel or > drm-fbsd12.0-kmod? >=20 > > > > I have set the UXA as the default for i5-5300U CPU. > > > > On the other hand the DRM i915kms works fine with SCFB on the sa= me > > load and hardware. I am working on DRM + i915kms + SCFB so far. >=20 > If you are using SCFB, you are not using i915kms. >=20 > > > > This is why I suspect problem with X11-INTEL driver? Maybe it > does not > > like latest Xorg changes? > > > > I also sometimes get this DRM warning on the dmesg: > > [drm] Reducing the compressed framebuffer size. This may lead to= less > > power savings than a non-reduced-size. Try to increase stolen me= mory > > size if available in BIOS. >=20 > This is unrelated to this issue. >=20 > Have you tried using the modesetting xorg driver instead? > Regards > --=20 > Niclas > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing li= st > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org > " >=20 > A day or two ago I saw a post to this list stating that modesetting was= =20 > not interesting because it did not support 3-D acceleration. At least o= n=20 > my Sandy Bridge system running the latest available software for FreeBS= D=20 > 12-STABLE, 3-D acceleration works just fine. This assumes the most=20 > recently committed mesa, server, drm-fbsd12.0-kmod, etc. It may be that= =20 > modesetting does not provide 3-D on other platforms, but that is not th= e=20 > norm, I suspect. If it does normally work, a clear statement to that=20 > effect would be a "good=C2=A0 thing", though, other than this mailing l= ist, I=20 > have no idea where to find current status and no idea where else users=20 > would look. >=20 > If it is not going to be maintained, please take down the graphics wiki= =20 > page! It list supporting evdev as "Not started" and everything on it=20 > seems over a year old. I'm tempted to volunteer to try to update it=20 > myself, but I am hardly the best informed. I only discovered the=20 > modesetting driver as an option for Intel GPUs when I had serious issue= s=20 > and someone (Jan) suggested I try it. The modesetting xorg-server driver works fine, and has been working fine=20 for quite a number of years. It is the driver used by default, in the=20 default set up. You need to explicitly install another xf86-video-*=20 driver to get something else. It also should give 3D acceleration (and=20 has always, to my knowledge, done so). If you, or anyone else on the=20 mailing list, have problems using it, it is most likely a bug. I've been telling people this on mailing lists for a long time, and as I=20 said before, it is the default configuration. I don't know what else to=20 do to squash rumors like this. It is even stated on the graphics wiki=20 page that you don't need for instance xf86-video-intel when using drm-kmo= d. Regards --=20 Niclas From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Tue Apr 14 23:45:27 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F172CD03A for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 23:45:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4922D659R2z3yNP for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 23:45:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id z17so1617559oto.4 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:45:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=v7/BhYktL6ib4NhPOZnf30WBr0XTnLGlEJTOjNTyKxA=; b=HAklz7OGUgr7+0ANUrvSZGVX9skHs6IgA93VzpF8dCgDtNZ1DVRwWqZrJNBpTfcwqy GimTzDIi1zYqgaiI/jO8A3aGmv5DFOQTkbNtDPyccnfnrP1/xm6yPCQDS/tJ+xtbSojV qJrLAlxdbCS9/jyMD7DpGwtgxO9WzKOu63ZQFADwh/xWK08JTaE5vB0DxfJNOV6yzNDu g7+v4NzWLrUl71TW0jGFHghm51W6yTnswdtAV5nUD7N1ERadU5KBaIJUZl7zURc/iEGV 0SseJgLlmi317T88wezmmroM4sWpxYYA/HP58qvGiVYtkPnCVSI8woIVZQrqd/X8Stqo aOmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=v7/BhYktL6ib4NhPOZnf30WBr0XTnLGlEJTOjNTyKxA=; b=Odu0+KEv38Zq0DCbxLwbkizkMoJTMgD3YRLH82nFS1O5s1Ctym6oK2ettnFLJYkdvJ 8uWGg3El1ek3OZPbolP6qBqrY5O415ZzmMmVkMIVtR5xPHAH99gKsIdmfx7XujXk1GT5 tn2V37xShSM/mIg6k4P/blB9tnQIMmKlKziBguYSdKOe9BNoYjuVeecghxW9nFAl7d9B BWNv3pt9/SBZZl8+QXL2jrsWCE88SbbU+s8HI8AFnB2KUPQfNdz9j9HcN+dk2nEdzCA0 5txvLymTPDUkcgMFC5IqxPHcYOJ+lcFGjQxUh+5S58VynvE9AP3uGM4CJsJv9lmkgods 3sGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubkfFy60nKc3NCYHpovQalY4CQWGZw8pJpZhzl38dcq8wc6DcVj 4dqA5Iix69duO0TodxokjPpZOEFBnWg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLnFndOD/kRvOQHWwp1wLxqVoHlb9p+GTdJKUiWNcbluBjFuSNxQfYa00J8jQYTfw1i2scaMA== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:ecc:: with SMTP id 70mr19696618otj.193.1586907925257; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f173.google.com (mail-oi1-f173.google.com. [209.85.167.173]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s13sm6501613oov.28.2020.04.14.16.45.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f173.google.com with SMTP id x21so5818207oic.5; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:45:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:485:: with SMTP id z5mr16758196oid.78.1586907923599; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:45:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 01:44:58 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Niclas Zeising Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4922D659R2z3yNP X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=HAklz7OG; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::336) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.16 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[6.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.86)[ip: (-8.47), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 23:45:27 -0000 On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 2:15 PM Niclas Zeising wrote: > > On 2020-04-14 13:57, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > Hello world :-) > > > > I have noticed some bad thing with the X11 Intel driver (12.1-RELEASE > > (..) > > Which driver are you talking about? xf86-video-intel or drm-fbsd12.0-kmod? > > (..) > > If you are using SCFB, you are not using i915kms. > > (..) > > Have you tried using the modesetting xorg driver instead? > Regards > -- > Niclas Well, you are right Niclas, thanks for the reminder, I am sorry, late working and lots of iterations blurs the picture! I forgot that xf86-video-intel is for the old cards only, the new way is to use drm-kmod + xorg modesetting this is my default setup (even no xorg.conf). I am sometimes using scfb when no drm is loaded just to have xorg working. Anyways in a test setup I also did install the xf86-video-intel (along with scfb and drm-kmod) that was explicitly selected in xorg.conf and it seems to interfere the way described by eating up the memory. Maybe there is another reason, I am not yet sure, my workstation was freezing after some time and I had to hard-reset it. But there is no need to have this driver when drm-kmod is present. So I have uninstalled the intel driver and the problem is gone :-) Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 15 02:17:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CEB02CFCB5; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 02:17:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from mail.nomadlogic.org (mail.nomadlogic.org [174.136.98.114]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.nomadlogic.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4925c02c9Gz46hW; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 02:17:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pete@nomadlogic.org) Received: from [192.168.1.206] (cpe-23-243-162-239.socal.res.rr.com [23.243.162.239]) by mail.nomadlogic.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 3e7e28ee (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Wed, 15 Apr 2020 02:17:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Theron , Tomasz CEDRO , Niclas Zeising Cc: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> <24c43065-527d-499b-282a-43df2a947a1d@gmail.com> From: Pete Wright Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:17:44 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24c43065-527d-499b-282a-43df2a947a1d@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4925c02c9Gz46hW X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pete@nomadlogic.org designates 174.136.98.114 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pete@nomadlogic.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.56 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[nomadlogic.org]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[239.162.243.23.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.76)[ip: (-9.22), ipnet: 174.136.96.0/20(-4.11), asn: 25795(-0.42), country: US(-0.05)]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:25795, ipnet:174.136.96.0/20, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 02:17:53 -0000 On 4/14/20 5:40 PM, Theron wrote: > Please forgive the following for being not exactly related to the > memory leak, but very relevant to scfb vs. modesetting vs. intel: > > On 2020-04-14 19:44, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: >> I forgot that xf86-video-intel is for the old cards only > So, new cards (newer than skylake at least) don't encounter > frame-tearing problem (completely unacceptable to me) even with > modesetting driver and no compositor ?  But the software design bug is > still there either way if it can happen on some hardware. Sorry, I > have no idea whether it's a hardware timing being configured wrong or > a software data race, but when I've heard "use a compositor" proposed > as a solution, it smells of underlying ill-conceived implementation.  > I wouldn't be surprised if Linux graphics has this same problem, but I > don't run that. > > Shame to see xf86-video-intel being treated as if it's deprecated > software meanwhile modesetting driver lags behind it on this basic > level of image quality. to be clear the decision to move to modesetting instead of chip specific DDX's seems to have been made upstream on the Xorg side. having said that there are still updates landing upstream to bot the intel and amdgpu DDX's, but i'm not certain on the long term plan anymore tbh.  i periodically run the intel DDX and it works well enough with our drm-kmod (and forcing the "tear-free" option in xorg works with SNA iirc).  I also run the amdgpu with our drm-kmod daily and have no issues with xorg there - perf is quite good imho. -p -- Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic.org @nomadlogicLA From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 15 09:10:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E9F2B0345 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 09:10:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 492Gln04C2z4WZ4 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 09:10:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id x11so2685486otp.6 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 02:10:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LpkgOrnwI3yXHhPu9sYHB0Zxc/sCUDE1zO0C9j10CPA=; b=ULoxOpf6OM5zCOJLSM7Geg8NAomVSgas+QjrW1oGQojCcntculN5iOIE1vxt5c12o0 066i3yc9kp4VVenlSUre6kyd1+pIXUaGxtQw/tIuEdREnYIY2DGXkUMRRE69cPZKeko5 Q2XaX0cooigT6lruC060mqmjhIw3yKacPxeKJByM2jje01O19o2zleyw/VMUhj0hUeUY WHGn70RQeMdBcr2tml0EboW7Fcw5zo4gipL4/eJUnjpNYGO9rc9rtRtSAlIsgodqvvje QV0eyM5xQ9FkUeKxw4O3+DM83YcutdbVnSvodJfeEnj+TaDJsNlxSP9RAlnJ0eOuUJf/ HOEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LpkgOrnwI3yXHhPu9sYHB0Zxc/sCUDE1zO0C9j10CPA=; b=CycSbom5LPxLAKdBuddiGoFTcCfX8kEKqKQF8dTbGBZ3wsrcq0hdTsoZmSDBIpYhNy qklf0Q5IrIto5VCjihhRqUB3rj6T0IvtCoWKiYp22Aji7ufxYg7g6+W9QoO3Zw4GG8sF noRCG78UUrbwIHR77OZ/s42ib4nmU1w9R6hHwsip6uzuTWBhQaDk41bovI9/kcdlp6IH 8Di2U4JeLhRGcw2t9HC9hgX0o1+LevwGGgT+t23j4kKI1qqMntXVpor8sjZYa+6iFO3s z46PfGPkDcwmvAcUMyqNfwHgZJMdtKLMkj2ilAUU9WnjUkK8yy/bYvsFbnCv1HKyuuaX Yjvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaYjXWFLEKDN5kbO07TK/lrRBPQZTWTr4m62h7QjT1Wk69gW0H8 IkMCvxiNi2VbbUYHrbif/KYkWU72qhE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK3ttiJUyLpMeijvRTe44XRCz48JecgPXen0jaiClJT0epjHq/u6jGWE+0i/Q7NhMm+AMfElA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:108c:: with SMTP id y12mr1513249oto.159.1586941811525; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 02:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f175.google.com (mail-oi1-f175.google.com. [209.85.167.175]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f26sm4773045otp.28.2020.04.15.02.10.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2020 02:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f175.google.com with SMTP id o25so12864917oic.11; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 02:10:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:485:: with SMTP id z5mr17742334oid.78.1586941809660; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 02:10:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> <24c43065-527d-499b-282a-43df2a947a1d@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <24c43065-527d-499b-282a-43df2a947a1d@gmail.com> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 11:09:44 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Theron Cc: Niclas Zeising , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 492Gln04C2z4WZ4 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=ULoxOpf6; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::329) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[9.2.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.88)[ip: (-8.57), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 09:10:14 -0000 On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:41 AM Theron wrote: > Shame to see xf86-video-intel being treated as if it's deprecated > software meanwhile modesetting driver lags behind it on this basic level > of image quality. Wow, I also noticed a bit better picture quality with Intel driver, but I was not sure if this is the driver thing, now it gets more probable when also you mention it. To be honest I was a bit surprised that it even worked :-) :-) I guess this new modesetting driver will catch up quickly and get into the point of better picture quality.. maybe there is some additional setup that could improve things already? > > I am sometimes using scfb when no drm is loaded just to have xorg working. > Using scfb with i915kms loaded (yes it does work, no reason not to) > actually gives substantial power savings for me (530 Skylake GT2 0x191b) > compared to using xf86-video-intel: even with Xorg and a few > non-animated graphical apps I can have power consumption on laptop > almost as low as in console, but of course it is not good for video. > Xorg+xf86-video-intel always wastes a few watts no matter what I try. Exactly my observation, on Intel driver, except eating out the whole system memory, basic applications like Enlightenment took around 20..40% CPU and Terminology took around 10..30% CPU on a decent machine. On DRM i915KMS they take around 5% (E) and 1% (T) :-) I guess there is no reason to use xf86-video-intel anymore for a reason :-P Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 15 12:50:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FFB2B568D for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 12:50:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 492Mdd5vsBz3Hd4 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 12:50:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id m14so13343314oic.0 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 05:50:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gvy6FAwWbrWcFegxDCxT06erD8QfS4aq7a9u3sBAT+c=; b=Pi++4zVb4T2rTkMPyf2H8XY5n3gQHYGS3IZR/z+tWvzTvyACZCDMq0h5OXSMUTIKaY LuvfUqZdxhW5pBFvnJunVYIplBPZEShEnax1CGqS4MWEyPmcOUFEGEYLVpqEmN0QivSf OfxI8dyOaZBXT8lePteOifEdG1H4+bLgNa/k/W/3L+hDMi2VAS5AvU9/0XfUUC32ubCI /b5ExEMd6n4kXvX9ZkQf6MZESk1/CS8//JU+770b1R9YFTHT+oboW6ILrgo+8mN2/SaL uVz99J+kPERX3YdAv22B/ofQbDQmQX0LRAaCrLfZbkf043PZ17vVLvlpY503JExFa49S 7itA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gvy6FAwWbrWcFegxDCxT06erD8QfS4aq7a9u3sBAT+c=; b=Gnx9VuJ4zmZDUR/wtBvwKOmx05xkSYCjYCux+Sd8D4Z1jnE6LNu+ipvJHljHLkL3Dh c+xpMA6TpFIE6B5BAp2Gnl5Hm2I8FqpMB22pNWyLVVUpceiNiHglJjOXfcz75GUuOXxc cM+jXqTTWv/nw653LXKuB3PNqsiOBQFQxD/NO+SgM6AACmiDKLoUjQtuebX1v1D17E4W h2D3BMuIkr8SixuSoZLkGsBfXNgAoAFYW3kd71clLV+hV+TA4G8BzlOzRdMlWwxIP+aI jyT2aIs5bNWh4zkXwRwlQPxF5MwBXb+Tq6LdXbKzJfdej0eomxdG8x+3faYWe5O/VmCk JeVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua40OnPVrCxS+j9mUHOT8ueg4lk2KOI7yGA+jiD/qC/OLadMrwY g7K4EsjuGo+hmrySqhdaPWwxpqbn5l0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJNJT59fiCVr/Hkqt1iCv7YoXimUXqL4hxQm1r55Z4lVpE1s7HrxUbkjQPSyziKLR1GhPTmKg== X-Received: by 2002:aca:5513:: with SMTP id j19mr18230144oib.31.1586955012314; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 05:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f53.google.com (mail-ot1-f53.google.com. [209.85.210.53]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p128sm2436629oic.7.2020.04.15.05.50.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2020 05:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f53.google.com with SMTP id m2so3283541otr.1; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 05:50:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7ca:: with SMTP id 68mr17102314oto.267.1586955010684; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 05:50:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 14:49:45 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Kevin Oberman Cc: Niclas Zeising , FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 492Mdd5vsBz3Hd4 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=Pi++4zVb; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::231) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.74 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.94)[ip: (-8.90), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 12:50:15 -0000 On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 9:38 PM Kevin Oberman wrote: d be a "good thing", though, other than this mailing list, I have no idea where to find current status and no idea where else users would look. > (..) > (..) graphics wiki page (..) I'm tempted to volunteer to try to update (..) I really love FreeBSD for its comprehensive and consistent/coherent documentation. I always give "The FreeBSD Handbook" as an example of perfect project documentation. It contains practical examples, is written both for new and advanced users, can be printed as a book. Everything in one place always up to date. Also you can type "man something" and you will usually get a man page for that something. This is in total opposition to Linux documentation that is spread around the net on various blogs and mostly irrelevant or outdated. >From what I understand, things under development are usually described on WIKI. Those wiki pages are sometimes outdated or could contain some more useful information and examples. But in general the are very useful and centralized source of information. Having a good WIKI could save time both for people asking questions and answering questions on various support media such as mailinglists or forums. Also wiki could be a source of documentation merge into the Handbook. Maybe if WIKI access is more liberal (but still moderated) then people (like me or Kevin) could put more detailed descriptions and examples. That could be the central point for information exchange on things under development and then practical examples source for stable stuff. It could be a single page organized in a Sections like I am used to: 1. Documentation - nicely edited human readable text or information that then sources the information to The FreeBSD Handbook. 2. TODO - a checklist that would point all tasks and subtasks to be done and marked as completed. 3. Examples - can show example configurations and use cases to be quickly applied in the field. 4. Workbench - a developer workbench scratchpad to leave developer readable comments, notes, memos. 5. References - anything helpful to understand the project for a new developers or users. The above sections are just an example that I got used to create when starting a project (for instance a bit outdated https://github.com/cederom/icederom) in a form of one simple page with everything in one place just like in The FreeBSD Handbook does :-) Besr regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 15 13:42:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5F32B7425 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:42:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic316-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic316-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.187.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 492Nnk6SJYz3N2h for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:42:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: pRBA6EwVM1lKWqSnUZSrTX239mr0EldQ6inVBRDnKMam3vpR7b7rMVP8VFnz_sv mB06Ndynx.jMTXKiPw9IZo5k6CV5r.lA2RsjOf8D8GDPSQQ5vZ9ME1.LyyvjrXfGnar2HaOPdsdy Hfl9Ff6ieNBzHarGJnnDgXbAoRnAZQ6uayFq8Dgr_RGEBx8WJYgz3I_zcA1WyQa4lxeqNfttfugA GSPqyX_6pL2W4wFt66rrP7fTPbuEm_DzDf6y1SFcZcJOiQ_rPEnpgChuHfS_xVV9zwudUVotyjw5 Ylz.8_q77EPFbfRIWNB6j.h0ZS9BagMQhAq0Xor.VNSvHRuz3gGmCUobJXK9O8KzSmVhiYq_U.8x fWQXhyinz52C_.dBaDItgtZDwQQNcZm1UWlgpoCI4YM6._Heo_STq5P12yh1OgzCENE3iXh.nRAH RG.l7KsUaiHXxHuRLMND62jEzeXWgtLx3LdstCoDG4g5dTm9qGfMpbuNgS1YHdzBBWs317wU2XYv AaOi3GA3c8BYofQbCQ6N3iDDjh.69G32qgdvs8R.72tUqrXV1cZsAhF8Iz8YBzYfgU1JCCP6VJLG VzH9APXRfcZ164DMY2W1cYTSI0o4toZkeO_bNQWFOKzp.TrDpLlF57cya5EEoB_M6XSTjSf.lR03 qrAHkVUC7FKa5zENusgmSGTaiHFPJlGCsxnXiYf9XXRZTXfpFUPwqZPvcs9SpFX45qzibsrMchLp pxLN5GiDv8C4ox8CzFCQx3dKr6Q5F2c9o8GsnWieyakdtbuzJVKCWnd3T1nTR8EX7iqgMgjzdiED _w61Oh3BY9qStFJ8ig09oWbYLWj_T_63VKIvB1Lug72zJ1kF2AT.fNbpxtkCAvMe6nDXg64mwdE4 fkgD_JWqgwI6uk3UgUVnZJCovRoMHOG7LYEf3_Pjx_edWubn3W_YQnwYpA3cO0TWnINdNHyL.yaM Mm3wgJvhESI8IhT9VJLNCJrg11qhZm.Z9yRpAOAld7O5yzR.bJ_DyljWke6W0ZtDxlla7.JjB7W4 dI2tI6xJ6toz09q_lCSgCTFf7eMhhzm84ryH1Vj9TAfpFe6I6OQx9785cRgbHFF.sqpZ38aK2OYs ppL41RZxjdWdJkdf00xwMIW7DOsYzwdHDyXRMgdHeS_nq.zaNVraUzbCpfoHDj5lmqbiNb86w3G0 9gas9uKxOmWBWQ8xlm4.YFa5FRjMegnk_sgCB7BeNCZFkIbNA8gIQgc.xMyb6rRICeqKkXyqVdIt pyhQLZO_K1XvzDAiGmwBDmdkqdwyrOhdiVf1.e55FeZ.EoRgupbrJhkZjVHsCFP7E3UdjbdvtpOC 3arNf4Nk8tM1y9Xo2S2o_.l5.mOj8OKScsPuqDGZOcAwGgt.2.nczCzFWJ00DeO7lxfEvghk_au4 K.2D449yFkQDAjJko1q3Pjg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic316.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:42:17 +0000 Received: by smtp404.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d83e04989a8884f49a611a3c17a42ac3; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:42:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f179.google.com with SMTP id n24so1243937plp.13 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 06:42:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaxqtccekzkHh7UZUzWkgZejquK2r1dCSIg7aVxS3EeTw22uW+0 gAn9JCDMr8Hj+fyvHSKoIvOceWv7L0b2VRAdryQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKfeRR8B2J4nMq+kpnbCB+82OubEOBe0npz3pzrQ16mx4Jc0Gb6uWpBTcI8t2Lir8lS8im9Hm92a4w0Brh522Y= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:fe0f:: with SMTP id ck15mr6290171pjb.192.1586958134966; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 06:42:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 14:41:58 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: OT: FreeBSD vs Linux man pages, was: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: tomek@cedro.info, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 492Nnk6SJYz3N2h X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.65 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.955,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[146.187.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.91), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[146.187.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:42:19 -0000 On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 13:49, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > I really love FreeBSD for its comprehensive and consistent/coherent > documentation. I always give "The FreeBSD Handbook" as an example of > perfect project documentation. It contains practical examples, is > written both for new and advanced users, can be printed as a book. > Everything in one place always up to date. I think we all agree on that. > Also you can type "man > something" and you will usually get a man page for that something. > This is in total opposition to Linux documentation that is spread > around the net on various blogs and mostly irrelevant or outdated. Can you please give us a couple of examples of man pages that are outdated on Linux? Is it possible that the version of the software is behind FreeBSD, hence the man pages are also behind? (Debian stable springs to mind) Also note that FreeBSD runs different software in the base system from the Linux counterparts, even if the name is the same. All software installed from ports are third party, hence the man pages should be consistent between the *BSD's and the Linuxes. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 15 14:53:19 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C82A2B93A4 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 14:53:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x32e.google.com (mail-ot1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 492QMf33J6z3xPZ for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 14:53:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id j26so190037ots.0 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:53:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VX3Yx+JInIE6J4OeVqx/Qp5NPSCpj0Uxi/X7ro5aWGc=; b=Uu3flvsX0kdVQAZ1lWlE/UYRR1ITBOQHDvXjaLKLwvvvf6Yg8e/cTJHZTrB/FAx1L0 HRLnTLKFbY68d/3jdAkA4vIUOBXLot5gQVnspbWVDjAAIPS64CZtVFOjzxBFeDKkj3AU lQtUR0DWOO9EdWOBVnoTGM71CIz5AUrnZDX5ejcMi8u+QBzmfb5d43R5Tv27ljdGq3SR VT/l8fVRKbya3Gubu7toLtgckGh3DpGfIEC48w4MQhZsPRWc6kpSV3OVrsc/fCaP2vre DRUaDN4BGiXBgSOuZsueHYRp3fIKuJi+dzM5v3e+CdzVV43wF0MG3yOP6uzRsgmYrwcZ w+jg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VX3Yx+JInIE6J4OeVqx/Qp5NPSCpj0Uxi/X7ro5aWGc=; b=QN0WIaetY9jcnPG87n1KZ30BiZXKz+7bhF0z7IVFeW+dgYTHcRwdutZMVJfjEhOVld 6hOFyV/KvcfgTCBtjmRFVJpt+sbNRUgn74ugwWUlIhFXz9SlsxIpQCFZJZYJnl5qJfPn isFMB0ObhDhyPFudSAeBzZ31HZ3GjPaSxli70HkOVDyNL7eKw/1uXJimvpq18olwA6Dc hZ8uBYbQ9Q9K3TLN6NhVqKcrFYYx774yFzK4ZdeKav+9IDM9lg1CrrVXO5IpboX4we+C 5OZXnlfW55E3LZDMZ6zBchFLoCeeyKEhjEpTRNxs5VbT/DTykpY+ghfh3MBGag2oIV0k i1Ew== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuacmnRw1KEdl7cKPCU6ErE424OSt+L7rx6M62p8DukpRaWHg/dz 8+x3buREyNbI0fj5Y3Owz6uwj/3vZyk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJRxeUTIvaPTxX8r30WAGK3brdAylWuPk8CXzf1sG7+lsDrrOOcM3II/NFxNB7NzmElsudgdw== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:68cc:: with SMTP id i12mr16688343oto.265.1586962396221; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f175.google.com (mail-oi1-f175.google.com. [209.85.167.175]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s144sm6093559oos.8.2020.04.15.07.53.14 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f175.google.com with SMTP id o25so13644021oic.11 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:53:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:6184:: with SMTP id v126mr18386014oib.168.1586962394569; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 07:53:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 16:52:49 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: FreeBSD vs Linux man pages, was: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Ottavio Caruso Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 492QMf33J6z3xPZ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=Uu3flvsX; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.04 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[googlemail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.74)[ip: (-7.89), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 14:53:19 -0000 On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 3:22 PM Ottavio Caruso wrote: > Can you please give us a couple of examples of man pages that are > outdated on Linux? Is it possible that the version of the software is > behind FreeBSD, hence the man pages are also behind? (Debian stable > springs to mind) > > Also note that FreeBSD runs different software in the base system from > the Linux counterparts, even if the name is the same. > > All software installed from ports are third party, hence the man pages > should be consistent between the *BSD's and the Linuxes. Hello Ottavio :-) I have stopped using Linux on my desk around 2008 (time around 2.4.10 when kernel API started to change between minor releases) then I have moved definitely to FreeBSD (when stable USB stack showed up). Maybe things have changed since then. But I remember different Linux distributions had different configuration schemes, even different init and system services startup methods, not to mention libc/glibs issues, even between updates/releases of the same distribution. Constant complication of things. Back then things like StackOverflow were not popular or did not exist yet. Ubuntu seems to centralize the community a bit. The only good thing that comes from Linux is promoting Open-Source, GIT, and free of charge low power OS for embedded systems. I don't really care anymore about Linux as I am happy FreeBSD user, there is one distribution, one kernel, one base, one Handbook, and really amazing community where you can ask questions and you will most likely get a response or a patch from person who wrote the code.. things are just coherent simple and amazingly effective.. and I love that! :-) When Linux started changing kernel API from release to release it looked like a maintenance nightmare. You had to constantly update your code to follow the kernel changes (lets say you are kernel driver developer). Not to mention OS changes multiplied by the distributions amount. Ten years after we do already live in a world where this became a standard and you even need a dedicated team for that. Is this really necessary? Is this really the core work to follow updates and maintain something already done in a constantly changing and challenging environment? I don't think so. I would prefer to focus on something that is really new. Look at Windows or Android. They became monsters. They are the same. Windows use PC, Android use Mobile. Android was supposed to become an open platform for open people.. it pushed Linux development hard.. but look what Google makes out of it :-( Some people like red cars, some people like black cars, others like yellow. Free means freedom of choice :-) Long story short: yes I still think FreeBSD base is better documented than Linux base :-) :-) Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 15 15:00:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89A62B97F4 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:00:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 492QXJ0CLLz3xnv for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:00:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: Fb1iI8kVM1l7fGx43IkvTQ.Ljii5m3f1yYVx5rlaZCKHHZRjgTIarr0BKkM4m4n vsgHkASiGafJBL4Sci0452z7w6rkN1HvGWLbZN..EJqmiEJla0K9ex67uDj7qxpTNLhWN3m7lSgL IKQiSZmtHjcWQLeI.vQ1i_S0ywiqvo9KH_YnBa7w1oGVWi2rUwmHLOYozTGomYyY9ElUFKVeDajX HyQtxwAEb.F14Bg6Fz59HM1B02gb1YBoHuzKw5vAX._T9Jvie.yClE8E2ISozvJJHQCsOdtfYJ8C UcK3e7Opo2a9BbVYIyYmOhtpLbwR1I5cpRjJEOd5OGhp.1Qa.4aWFEvWMRz02D6b7nEdTO.vPgpp ipePTGvobKiqLMd6b247u6piByK9ZaFZYzBrsPOkJjzeSF0QVqtxIX44mG7gRM039jBuANyeyAfi CM7XIatKegHkWORMFIfWvKtbd91ISMPCHAxJL_1QyRVgYd_X_fqt_TaqBaOks8Y1daIBWZ6sGy8c MdeDHBdDRrq_vo3xIGMQMMg8RzVj3ZBZkDJf9yQFAtUjJr1n7kVBCmHaOWPmbrV8dB0St7TQ5FGT TifrV.tn7o43MsjcO70kFENYU0EIDVF035iRBbza3w4KBpXX.q7uBSlzdzKLRF8_tFu_81px7czz 1aFbcZVuQlvWjcQLD2dDmnCmck0zwqxZKsQXAGs6DNq13W9aHlOwkMn3.qdwgei7kIaBWyIiaG89 gZg7riDWidsq9t1fV4JNlBhv.5MnLCkC25sI1pw9j5YMtYxwmdjRiRmqLs9VPoybaweQpoD2OnZi BbuAr9GmUUd6CfcDMH2eNhmndbqKTyZYLGIaXgVrBJzPDHp9xnagV8ZRBasj2n0IIpOlhyHcoVgz YLdeg7ZvHQV25L.lu4.z7sP9RLjM7pbOl_Eny3BzVrVoup6bqd42bbjDq0qWUD36QfZPnYtSlOPv pKt4Fwflf9tinXgy.HPMhf6cEF5acbRxYA5Fc3StlDEEPF1r3l_qq7uGSH4Y_el0_3nXM_8eydas q0SP4g0T19CKNynX7PQDzTWT.fECD1PeGgDiFgtyCz7yDkDNDX5eHVmP5AuEABxI6s69WY4mmuWj rvXP3CgW3whyJjIKWtJ2KPSRQEBF7gWKMn6sVv1ksICHFtYseUy8t_n6ul4k3du7SsE34u.iBGcz F.VHc2iOcdDTBrFTwK5uSI.9zsytQhlGEEmgqgjKA3yjsCUTfhSa6L3mcmk4zULfiJzozYRzMX7t Xuc6XUQdHI9kT.vPd1ynC85owIYeT6UWtWDaQ0Ez2uMe7BEOXB5QyxZZwwNRbfCXpwNPF_8euM16 DKwAC5GCnXFQLmTve7ufJcCUbR9ysDxkFu7wHAnojQSBQJFTfjovIfDVMyRspJJTIUmtQCyx7j_Q O_K0KW6amY8fBHzHfP0dTMHF3_.vPmw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:00:45 +0000 Received: by smtp411.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1e85ee2e1f6730baf041c187b67cc992; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:00:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f182.google.com with SMTP id m16so92612pls.4 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ1G5zQ20uv1hmG12X+l4K7YCcMyjlPMC1VINifiH8+4QBLCVly fFTFrZJT8BqI28lKuDWjYomYtdjTbdRYVw0XdG8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJEKGgy2jtWF+Dv0rMKNkpaVhKTR6E8fHF+Q/PDGQGgRwk+hWNYT9VgRTfZeZ/Rq6ptrrSPIp9wYMq+NNu7Rj0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:fe0f:: with SMTP id ck15mr6649524pjb.192.1586962842943; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:00:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 16:00:26 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: FreeBSD vs Linux man pages, was: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 492QXJ0CLLz3xnv X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.66 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.96)[-0.963,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.995,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[tomek@cedro.info]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[200.184.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.22), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[200.184.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:00:48 -0000 On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 at 15:53, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 3:22 PM Ottavio Caruso wrote: > > Can you please give us a couple of examples of man pages that are > > outdated on Linux? Is it possible that the version of the software is > > behind FreeBSD, hence the man pages are also behind? (Debian stable > > springs to mind) > > > > Also note that FreeBSD runs different software in the base system from > > the Linux counterparts, even if the name is the same. > > > > All software installed from ports are third party, hence the man pages > > should be consistent between the *BSD's and the Linuxes. > > Hello Ottavio :-) I have stopped using Linux on my desk around 2008 Ok, so no examples, then. > Long story short: yes I still think FreeBSD base is better documented Apples and oranges. There's no such a thing as a Linux base. Everything is a package in Linux. FreeBSD is good in its own right, not because "it's not Linux". -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 15 15:07:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B5272B9ABA for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:07:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x344.google.com (mail-ot1-x344.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::344]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 492Qgj4Ry7z3yDf for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:07:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x344.google.com with SMTP id f52so187891otf.8 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:07:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=I1YS7zRNPjLlMe976jZDWvsdqth/OFYPkOr0rDn4Jas=; b=BEyRLnY4lMb+ji3DH/2R2BHWg1QdgCmcncAqa+aoJgdsED/1iAxOCzrFvKL34UjhtZ V+z7BiBI4lUK2rn4PLZx5Bc6HSuhZfoiG4d30oVZkzTXROh3ScClfD1p21oWEpeV9+ER zlKq86v+HnqmWwfJDEZM08LkKs1x7cfCqq5dRXEPJy5JxHf4l8FRfIBMfvLmZtO+iLec CJvBLUWLDnRkBW7Gvbm8l53U8esEGSlrHTTOH8gmYS0tQQze3BZjgr263jEgzc7wcLtC qQszcCC+qXP4exZxcb4tSypQyR4DeCgXwqWck4nF5IvOI+mQD6XpqWrXaRPmmpKiItS6 TppA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=I1YS7zRNPjLlMe976jZDWvsdqth/OFYPkOr0rDn4Jas=; b=Q9bPDbieUnK5LHU3YHiGfr4PVR0hFG+PFtblmaU/42KYlN9u+YiULYVIsey8zQCnW2 dV5y1MqfxqaqgjTPojBecLmEkF9B3OBSJvTcHtM8edEkdeVRhCGFAp/un66peLwQ/Oeg JSIgsaNrs6joa+xVjBHUbV8OrbdTtTly77JdcCkuwg5n2QcKzTvFG/AQKUb3d0dq1cpa UWHcOobnvbPtXV5eR4+zLMH3D8SBBJJKu7AjMvrnFCqMjuQGotrvvCe2Su4oZMKYavNX F4ooBm0130WRMS3D6W0yIz2BrCFetqbcymC377J8/xlDgSrQdxKyGdB0zmVmh95JWrhE sdOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubtWYJrMCZQH0637SlyPiDO2DyP+n4g7cPZMYp4gjE/ERCMvnWR Fmqyv/PDZBrM9A5ixEl0oaYyUjHcYSw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJPcTmeYDHbZbL5ltfl7STC3FG0JIjuQ0eMvCVDbq9jw3eEWU0sQfZzvOZnUQJbjgfQ1H1p0w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1d4:: with SMTP id r20mr14478563ota.11.1586963231878; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f51.google.com (mail-ot1-f51.google.com. [209.85.210.51]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o204sm6364746oib.12.2020.04.15.08.07.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f51.google.com with SMTP id k21so207995otl.5 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:07:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:108c:: with SMTP id y12mr2593232oto.159.1586963230535; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 08:07:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:06:44 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: FreeBSD vs Linux man pages, was: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Ottavio Caruso Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 492Qgj4Ry7z3yDf X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=BEyRLnY4; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::344) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.08)[ip: (0.41), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 15:07:15 -0000 On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 5:00 PM Ottavio Caruso wrote: > Apples and oranges. There's no such a thing as a Linux base. > Everything is a package in Linux. > > FreeBSD is good in its own right, not because "it's not Linux". Yes and I gave some examples why.. for me because community, approach, and software is more mature / coherent :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Apr 15 17:24:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0972BCD73 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:24:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbe-mlist@magnetkern.de) Received: from sapphire.magnetkern.de (sapphire.magnetkern.de [185.228.139.199]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492Tjz5PP5z47lr for ; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:24:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jbe-mlist@magnetkern.de) Received: from titanium (p5DD45C70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.212.92.112]) by sapphire.magnetkern.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C46C1C20; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:24:06 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:24:10 +0200 From: Jan Behrens To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru Subject: Re: Re[2]: How to run Steam for Linux on freebsd? Message-Id: <20200415192410.7c703c0ab8a84217cd037562@magnetkern.de> In-Reply-To: <1586850480.579989553@f492.i.mail.ru> References: <7043761586813039@iva1-ad256f95df1b.qloud-c.yandex.net> <20200414000112.164024cf328ebf53c591236f@magnetkern.de> <1586850480.579989553@f492.i.mail.ru> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 492Tjz5PP5z47lr X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of jbe-mlist@magnetkern.de designates 185.228.139.199 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jbe-mlist@magnetkern.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.02 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[112.92.212.93.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[magnetkern.de]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.86)[-0.857,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.896,0]; IP_SCORE(0.43)[ipnet: 185.228.136.0/22(2.82), asn: 197540(-0.64), country: DE(-0.02)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:197540, ipnet:185.228.136.0/22, country:DE]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yandex.ru]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 17:24:24 -0000 On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 10:48:00 +0300 nikitastepanov113@yandex.ru wrote: > Graphical applications I would suppose that most graphical applications should run too, but I have no further experiences with the Linux compatibility layer. Maybe you can let us know about your success or problems. Regards, Jan From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 07:15:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B340E2AD9AD for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:15:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from malaizhichun@tom.com) Received: from smtp.tom.com (smtprz15.163.net [106.3.154.248]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.163.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493S6r0FTCz4jNk for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:15:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from malaizhichun@tom.com) Received: from my-app02.tom.com (my-app02.tom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freemail02.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9A3B00DBE for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:15:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from my-app02.tom.com (HELO smtp.tom.com) ([127.0.0.1]) by my-app02 (TOM SMTP Server) with SMTP ID 222507103 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:15:33 +0800 (CST) Received: from antispam2.tom.com (unknown [172.25.16.56]) by freemail02.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEBAFB00DBA for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:15:28 +0800 (CST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=tom.com; s=201807; t=1587107732; bh=sK+Gi484KIJTc5MnWrZx9g/bBay8MLgXaQnNSId1Y8c=; h=Subject:From:Reply-To:To:Date:From; b=gJ4eIlPBCNt3ZOMLb9OYswYyi/rKfptlT5ZNypdadgw4bJDV2llzdI5TBKPSK2f/X rtc66FOmEHx3UdGb/qTlyJW1XHwc4J01WHXn8BOWmaVQeIv/AYwgEazN/kmKp8ifgO h1xHKDRqTSTw1R3RGZR4Y7xaXts/Xysrev4X9wHQ= Received: from antispam2.tom.com (antispam2.tom.com [127.0.0.1]) by antispam2.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1934E81341 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:15:28 +0800 (CST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at antispam2.tom.com Received: from antispam2.tom.com ([127.0.0.1]) by antispam2.tom.com (antispam2.tom.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6NACpO6NvFn0 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:15:27 +0800 (CST) Received: from localhost (unknown [18.208.141.28]) by antispam2.tom.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 8722B813C6 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:15:25 +0800 (CST) Message-ID: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> Subject: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture From: kindu smith Reply-To: malaizhichun@tom.com To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:15:20 +0800 Organization: malaizhichun Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.36.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493S6r0FTCz4jNk X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tom.com header.s=201807 header.b=gJ4eIlPB; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=tom.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of malaizhichun@tom.com designates 106.3.154.248 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=malaizhichun@tom.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.97 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[malaizhichun@tom.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:106.3.154.0/24]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[tom.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tom.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[tom.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[tom.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:23724, ipnet:106.3.152.0/21, country:CN]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[tom.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.979,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tom.com:s=201807]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.991,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; FREEMAIL_REPLYTO(0.00)[tom.com]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.69), ipnet: 106.3.152.0/21(2.32), asn: 23724(0.43), country: CN(0.01)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[248.154.3.106.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:15:52 -0000 Hello, I am a user who likes UNIX-like systems. I have some experience using GNU / Linux and some experience using freebsd. I like the architecture of UNIX-like systems, but I am not proficient, so I just want to mention some improvements. The idea of freebsd experience, what is unscientific, welcome to advise. First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface are too old. It is time to make some changes. I think the freebsd with microkernel will be more stable. The / boot / kernel directory is very suitable for writing a small kernel, such as named core, and then design some modules around and package it in this directory. Then, under / boot, create some new directories such as EFI, API, ABI, model, etc. to do EFI boot and application program interface, and user space modules. I think this will be a perfect design. As for the design pattern of the microkernel, you can refer to haiku (a clone of beos). In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a complete desktop environment, because this is very important for novices. I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by Freebsd. Freebsd should design a gorgeous interface comparable to macos, in addition to a set of init programs comparable to systemd. Therefore, both the bootloader and init programs need to be redesigned. For example, when Linux starts, it displays ok and colored driver loading reminders. Freebsd can learn from it. I think that the Linux startup program is not perfect. It is still in the startup mode similar to the console. The more modern startup program should be a perfect combination of graphical and startup information. The driver is a flaw of freebsd. Due to the limited number of developers, a large number of other systems are required, such as copying from linux. so copy it from linux. The GPL agreement does not affect the use of freebsd code. Only in this way can freebsd and linux form a differentiated competition, can freebsd survive the huge wave of linux. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 08:38:16 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309E52AF94A for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:38:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from FreeBSD@shaneware.biz) Received: from ipmail04.adl3.internode.on.net (ipmail04.adl3.internode.on.net [150.101.137.10]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493Txz05hQz4n6K for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:38:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from FreeBSD@shaneware.biz) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2ArCAD0aJle/6ZhAg5mHAEBAQEBBwE?= =?us-ascii?q?BEQEEBAEBgXuDAhNUIRIqhB2JAoV3AYFjLYNxl10KASsRAQIEAQGBUIJuBAI?= =?us-ascii?q?CgjM4EwIQAQEGAQEBAQEFBG2FCkwMhXEBAQEBAgEjMygLCxIGAgIYDgICSQ4?= =?us-ascii?q?HDAgBAYMiAYJcH64ndYEyhU+FI4EOKoUlDoddgUGBOIJpPoQ2gyqCXwSOCYp?= =?us-ascii?q?LR5hRgW9fiAKPVyODWphcj2WecCKBVzMaIYM7CUcYDVeaCIVRNDCBBAGOPgE?= =?us-ascii?q?B?= Received: from ppp14-2-97-166.adl-apt-pir-bras32.tpg.internode.on.net (HELO leader.local) ([14.2.97.166]) by ipmail04.adl3.internode.on.net with ESMTP; 17 Apr 2020 18:02:59 +0930 Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: malaizhichun@tom.com, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> From: Shane Ambler Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:02:58 +0930 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493Txz05hQz4n6K X-Spamd-Bar: ++++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of FreeBSD@shaneware.biz has no SPF policy when checking 150.101.137.10) smtp.mailfrom=FreeBSD@shaneware.biz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [8.49 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RBL_NIXSPAM(4.00)[10.137.101.150.ix.dnsbl.manitu.net]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[ShaneWare.Biz]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.986,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[tom.com]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:4739, ipnet:150.101.0.0/16, country:AU]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(1.50)[ip: (3.65), ipnet: 150.101.0.0/16(2.57), asn: 4739(1.28), country: AU(0.01)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:38:16 -0000 On 17/4/20 4:45 pm, kindu smith wrote: > Hello, I am a user who likes UNIX-like systems. I have some experience > using GNU / Linux and some experience using freebsd. I like the > architecture of UNIX-like systems, but I am not proficient, so I just > want to mention some improvements. The idea of freebsd experience, > what is unscientific, welcome to advise. > > First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent > the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface > are too old. It is time to make some changes. I think the freebsd with Have a look at trueos.org it adds a GUI installer to freebsd. Expect the base freebsd to stick with a CLI installer to support the non-gui server installs. > microkernel will be more stable. The / boot / kernel directory is very > suitable for writing a small kernel, such as named core, and then I don't expect you will get much support for this change. Have a look at minix3.org, a few years back they got minix running as the microkernel and use netbsd as the userland. > In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a > complete desktop environment, because this is very important for > novices. I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. Those three main GUI desktops are in use by many people. If you want to try something else have a look at x11/lumina, which is the new desktop made for trueOS > It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by > Freebsd. > > Freebsd should design a gorgeous interface comparable to macos, in Don't expect freebsd to remove the CLI to replace it with a GUI. It is still used as a non-gui server by many people. -- FreeBSD - the place to B...Software Developing Shane Ambler From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 09:17:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02C22B0830 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:17:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from viktormadarasz@SDF.ORG) Received: from mx.sdf.org (mx.sdf.org [205.166.94.20]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mx.sdf.org", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493Vpq5V0xz4phx for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:17:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from viktormadarasz@SDF.ORG) Received: from sverige.freeshell.org (IDENT:viktormadarasz@sverige.freeshell.org [205.166.94.5]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 03H99M4S018344 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:09:22 GMT Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:09:22 +0000 (UTC) From: Viktor Madarasz X-X-Sender: viktormadarasz@iceland.freeshell.org To: Shane Ambler cc: malaizhichun@tom.com, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21 (NEB 202 2017-01-01) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493Vpq5V0xz4phx X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of viktormadarasz@SDF.ORG has no SPF policy when checking 205.166.94.20) smtp.mailfrom=viktormadarasz@SDF.ORG X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.86)[-0.860,0]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.22)[ip: (-0.70), ipnet: 205.166.94.0/24(-0.35), asn: 14361(-0.01), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[SDF.ORG]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; URIBL_RED(3.50)[trueos.org.multi.uribl.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.64)[-0.641,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; HAS_ANON_DOMAIN(0.10)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[20.94.166.205.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14361, ipnet:205.166.94.0/24, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[tom.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:17:09 -0000 isnt trueos halted all future development? just wondering On Fri, 17 Apr 2020, Shane Ambler wrote: > Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:02:58 +0930 > From: Shane Ambler > To: malaizhichun@tom.com, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org > Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture > > On 17/4/20 4:45 pm, kindu smith wrote: >> Hello, I am a user who likes UNIX-like systems. I have some experience >> using GNU / Linux and some experience using freebsd. I like the >> architecture of UNIX-like systems, but I am not proficient, so I just >> want to mention some improvements. The idea of freebsd experience, >> what is unscientific, welcome to advise. >> >> First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent >> the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface >> are too old. It is time to make some changes. I think the freebsd with > > Have a look at trueos.org it adds a GUI installer to freebsd. > Expect the base freebsd to stick with a CLI installer to support the > non-gui server installs. > >> microkernel will be more stable. The / boot / kernel directory is very >> suitable for writing a small kernel, such as named core, and then > > I don't expect you will get much support for this change. > > Have a look at minix3.org, a few years back they got minix running as > the microkernel and use netbsd as the userland. > >> In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a >> complete desktop environment, because this is very important for >> novices. I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. > > Those three main GUI desktops are in use by many people. If you want to > try something else have a look at x11/lumina, which is the new desktop > made for trueOS > >> It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by >> Freebsd. >> >> Freebsd should design a gorgeous interface comparable to macos, in > > Don't expect freebsd to remove the CLI to replace it with a GUI. It is > still used as a non-gui server by many people. > > > > -- > FreeBSD - the place to B...Software Developing > > Shane Ambler > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > viktormadarasz@sdf.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 09:39:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA79C2B0EEE for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:39:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kappei84@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x444.google.com (mail-wr1-x444.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::444]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493WJK6jmwz4qjs for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:39:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kappei84@gmail.com) Received: by mail-wr1-x444.google.com with SMTP id i10so2257204wrv.10 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 02:39:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TOhGNFWeSm8foi0KmMZSOcB3gkd2VxX1jz4Ibe52eR8=; b=hjlXj1tZnvUGJirU5sZabuOdMzoSullZuUQRn+v0LDPIVnJ7SigztMjbOJIiOKNmEO nbAoRFs4GOfKpeVd06QcDyWfTdRBWy//sQc7Ue6P3u/OEEGohFxvIK23u68mOLHjVPTT JOwRRz1XWH4L7T+5/4h3rhlWeeDw1PK4s4AmkKsLu0ISgLZ8oGXN9kAHoocl+SIXTy+9 jinsRJID7PjLcARkh/uUGqNacWR2zDpmTZ/4oQzEJ9fkj9ptHqLL71sQt2PyPuJr/7mN TbvDLvBB8EOUv1HSp/gpD/3MNDNAlLRPivfrpqZ3A4aylZ6kt4xMtgd8QxEcRntJ5Ofv mmyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TOhGNFWeSm8foi0KmMZSOcB3gkd2VxX1jz4Ibe52eR8=; b=AkDh2TVFohv18VBk6IuYDeaxUbKs9KXRrk57gbOKj8N/fWWRDX9SPbybkpFXHkdEYg T0/UEgz7Y45nLpt3R/Leki+F4Jf24BXsVsxCQUyNYgcUEZjPnR2zmPFXeNk7gnzce+r8 v3PKIJsDImwTl4sjGMw5SBcbJokPcyekhiQ30Q3+5R25jtvSe0TCOjqSLDplqFwoXI7t zIpo936sren89lyFVdQHSrOGManq0dKxZGHGH8EhngJK1lripzXxoLGmxMSfcfo6gNFd xbB9bfzT+wROmv7CL2OyA2N5paIiYOlDhMoMi3WHhmltJ06ev0PTZN4fFg5N8vQwrI4o 3yPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuanmfmL6l8G0NMbThnirOYTENj/lqr+acBRY6y3mcYa0F2Lod/a /VYwdnfEM5IkauZ/1G6wZ7rjvNvdUKisVRJeBVzd X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKwdS+jUIoPHaZHTI4eKewf1OUeTUWPaUb/0QkZzRFBznvfHNPQqCvvPEncrh8onqW2irX+QIlltwEsZqu+VJ4= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5224:: with SMTP id i4mr2887104wra.1.1587115913117; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 02:31:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> In-Reply-To: From: HiMyNameIsIlNano Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:31:42 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Viktor Madarasz Cc: Shane Ambler , FreeBSD Mailing List , malaizhichun@tom.com X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493WJK6jmwz4qjs X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=hjlXj1tZ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kappei84@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::444 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kappei84@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.69 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URIBL_RED(3.50)[trueos.org.multi.uribl.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[13]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com,none]; HAS_ANON_DOMAIN(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (2.72), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.35), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.93)[-0.929,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:39:14 -0000 Yes. It will be discontinued. I read an article about it a while ago. Il ven 17 apr 2020, 11:17 Viktor Madarasz ha scritto: > isnt trueos halted all future development? > > just wondering > > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020, Shane Ambler wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:02:58 +0930 > > From: Shane Ambler > > To: malaizhichun@tom.com, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org > > Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel > architecture > > > > On 17/4/20 4:45 pm, kindu smith wrote: > >> Hello, I am a user who likes UNIX-like systems. I have some experience > >> using GNU / Linux and some experience using freebsd. I like the > >> architecture of UNIX-like systems, but I am not proficient, so I just > >> want to mention some improvements. The idea of freebsd experience, > >> what is unscientific, welcome to advise. > >> > >> First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent > >> the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface > >> are too old. It is time to make some changes. I think the freebsd with > > > > Have a look at trueos.org it adds a GUI installer to freebsd. > > Expect the base freebsd to stick with a CLI installer to support the > > non-gui server installs. > > > >> microkernel will be more stable. The / boot / kernel directory is very > >> suitable for writing a small kernel, such as named core, and then > > > > I don't expect you will get much support for this change. > > > > Have a look at minix3.org, a few years back they got minix running as > > the microkernel and use netbsd as the userland. > > > >> In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a > >> complete desktop environment, because this is very important for > >> novices. I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. > > > > Those three main GUI desktops are in use by many people. If you want to > > try something else have a look at x11/lumina, which is the new desktop > > made for trueOS > > > >> It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by > >> Freebsd. > >> > >> Freebsd should design a gorgeous interface comparable to macos, in > > > > Don't expect freebsd to remove the CLI to replace it with a GUI. It is > > still used as a non-gui server by many people. > > > > > > > > -- > > FreeBSD - the place to B...Software Developing > > > > Shane Ambler > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > viktormadarasz@sdf.org > SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 09:43:09 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B7432B11C0 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:43:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from robbelics@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lf1-f46.google.com (mail-lf1-f46.google.com [209.85.167.46]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493WNr3GNfz4r7P for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:43:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from robbelics@gmail.com) Received: by mail-lf1-f46.google.com with SMTP id g10so846391lfj.13 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 02:43:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Zcr/06DwbQpgyF6iaRTOswxS1aQ2JzFrEh6f9asPAjE=; b=DEKAptkTNy3h0McZKN9WMO0oUZ1TSEF/l3sqpn6aLlaZg4E2+aWXmGvre92sCYWNxs /8SHXRdhxxoBKzB/Ylg77vg3n4R9c3ReWB95YTSrA06/jY9yn6sMnk21lHjczEdCHM1M HpM20WWE70LuM6BWrtm4lYz+0XIXWF0y07JJZsR3gxdjgUSiTSfB5NYs6G4eZ0yI3wcU hk/DgJHWFFcTjjty1R5sXKL+VPBThSgqj+y+U1CDY1S4sU/QUR0d+eyt0y+l/wrs7GEw GaO1nfLTbksl7hwK34Gv0W6u0TG4LheQUSL/hHPsMpUm5IIDO9WIQiQVIWZSck+QKmyL T2WA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYrB+FxWPWcRy+vTdgIC09Dd6O+3zOt1MIwrtISm877AUq9Ufy2 1h0xytQm8QMtYtxiKoyxIc2VmoIFznjwCBwas5Vv X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKjYpR1R+p6W4xb8Bb5wHrNeiPXD18ORxFCfkuqqu4VL5bUiYGn+DE78sdsit1MODEw5kgnTm6cDpeO85gacmk= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4d3b:: with SMTP id h27mr1552630lfk.116.1587116586169; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 02:43:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Rob Belics Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:42:55 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493WNr3GNfz4r7P X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=belics.com (policy=none); spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of robbelics@gmail.com designates 209.85.167.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=robbelics@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.11 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FAKE_REPLY(1.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[belics.com : SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.951,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.85.128.0/17:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[46.167.85.209.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(-0.26)[ip: (-0.45), ipnet: 209.85.128.0/17(-0.40), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[rob@belics.com,robbelics@gmail.com]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[46.167.85.209.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:209.85.128.0/17, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[rob@belics.com,robbelics@gmail.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:43:09 -0000 What you are asking is for FreeBSD to turn itself into "not FreeBSD". You are also asking a bunch of professionals using professional tools to make it easier for hobbyists. When talking to construction workers, one would not ask them about pretty colors on their trucks or child safety locks or "soccer mom" features. We're trying to get work done, not play games. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 10:00:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51C02B188D for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:00:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493WnH3GBLz4ry1 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:00:51 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.118.76]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MyK9S-1j2K6q3jPo-00ykcW; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:00:37 +0200 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:00:35 +0200 From: Polytropon To: malaizhichun@tom.com Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-Id: <20200417120035.477d1fc5.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:KvdoerWOAJNTuMT9UoIQqqiqDma/ng7YEHKGfiwBQ9AsIBA/wym E+lIayr8tn/TjcpotJi01+NT0HzsRwnbVrLkiJckbmmddOylf0CrE0Z/tE5SnJrZtxeUO8v IndIuosb924RlBLdm9lsP2+nNBUbv3p8M4AXNa2DHqwpP3EDSiljXDkyHygbLnDAulAWp2C 9ZqudbnUpqxTn9CT2an+w== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jdwfAtkfZag=:6OEQCrCeSYQ5stdi9mjNs0 JOoGTKWekpEaRCPEILxrv7T+xZJiU4GcrsbEKHc68eTZc1VZfx0RdgXYljXn1x9PDn2vS/cUw Y/rXKxi7S1C91kTFdQdP3EF8cfnPZvlssdtXKMvqx7FbG+4zC/DObM6QtLu+PrsKM/le+M/9b bVRy2/V8Eil9Fl/wFvAQvO9hPI5Pwb8xboKH/h5NeqXkK6UyLGH3rWnujlm+bM3kP5S1nyO4Q +RCKfHOy4GWlk5YEk1TC9mu4Pt63qasm95NSyzUaGyqhJOHU/irVvycfaV2+dX6qaxQPI7lJr v7MfNg8eX1K7e8aWrL57WCqYharzixOl9DGnkvHbu9VzF20NggY6U/cO0ZGW9RBwoCnFVccfr 0KJnAQ1IoeV9IuQijPBicuIY9mCL1KkfKdSYPDJHVBd4aCbMA1YSNztBmRYfqj55qIXjagaZa q/gDyPpelTR4ZkUQGzVNj2erolHl29YMkj8C7bmotvP1pVJiuYDnaH5FxnZNAI2j6QcjvgHBu L0+TU4LcwawgcEBVEHd6R0Iz2EzKYJTNMQUqOLAvS/3A+GY/FxtGppDjf/lt5trWdxDWEXghP jegFzThADHyoyBWFRx5cQj2BbUwGec4FOQrZBsK0KfPiGF+zSNTZHDXAhzP185YteSr6nn9Rs 5cV7kxpDyZHVUfPl0xR1670mi2hxTLrZdtdZfBgEA9sCdE8owGlVLDisZDjR/7cJ3Hm25es6p lodYjC4OqkSGz3/egi15DJPuGxpbs4iRk6c46//7DmtLkurpT38kq3jQIje2yc+BNp2fr2sXI xZch3Rs4j1ReNhH5DOQzLweJb6KLKTJCWnyGTO4djyHBsS4oG8U2lN7IAtzr5Eb9an/SHmi X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493WnH3GBLz4ry1 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.73) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.63 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[tom.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.43)[ip: (-0.19), ipnet: 217.72.192.0/20(0.26), asn: 8560(2.09), country: DE(-0.02)]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[76.118.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.81)[0.806,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.998,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[73.192.72.217.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:00:52 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:15:20 +0800, kindu smith wrote: > First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent > the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface > are too old. It is time to make some changes. Well, I don't think so. Per definition, FreeBSD is a multi-purpose operating system. So if you'd intend to slap a GUI installer on it, it would be immediately unusable for servers or embedded platforms. Keep in mind that for all platforms, _one_ FreeBSD OS exists, and it's basically the same on all platforms (leaving the architecture aspect aside). In my opinion, the installer, currently in text mode, does exactly what it is supposed to do: Install the OS. Nothing else. Sure, you can use it to change system settings or install packages, but there are usually better tools to do this. There are GUI tools for such tasks, even web-based ones, if you prefer. And still, under the hood, everything is text files and CLI utilities, so no need to sacrifice anything. > I think the freebsd with > microkernel will be more stable. There is no actual relationship between "microkernel" and "more stable"; however, a microkernel offers a lot of security benefits. No need to render malformed font files in kernel space. ;-) FreeBSD has, compared to other UNIX and Linux operating systems, a quite small kernel. Extended functionality can be obtained via loadable kernel modules which are optional. You can even compile your own minimalistic kernel, as the OS offers all needed infrastructure (!) to do this - no 3rd party tools needed. > The / boot / kernel directory is very > suitable for writing a small kernel, such as named core, and then > design some modules around and package it in this directory. Then, > under / boot, create some new directories such as EFI, API, ABI, model, > etc. to do EFI boot and application program interface, and user space > modules. More or less, this is what FreeBSD already does. And as I said, the _default_ kernel doesn't include evething that can be included, just a well-intended set to match most settings where it will be used in. The source directory /usr/src maps that structure and purpose. > I think this will be a perfect design. As for the design > pattern of the microkernel, you can refer to haiku (a clone of beos). Yes, I fully agree. > In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a > complete desktop environment, because this is very important for > novices. Erm... no. FreeBSD is an operating system. Most desktop environments are ported over from Linux. There is (was?) an approach to create a desktop called Lumina which would be native to FreeBSD and not suffer from all the Linuxisms that modern DEs requred, leading to inconventient things as running software like HAL and DBus which have been abandoned in Linux many years ago. And as I said, FreeBSD isn't just for desktops. It's alos for servers, for appliances, for "combined forms" - _one_ OS for all those purposes. When you install FreeBSD on a server, or on a headless machine where you just access it via serial console, you don't want or need a graphical installer, let alone a full-blown desktop system forced upon you. What's the benefit of adding complexity (!) to the OS for no real benefit? Imagine a server which doesn't even have a graphics card - how useful would it be if FreeBSD installed automatically (!) a desktop system and GUI application software? FreeBSD draws a convenient line between "the OS" (that's what the FreeBSD developers create and maintain), and "everything else" / "3rd party software" which is managed using the ports collection and the appropriate port maintainers. Putting _that_ complexity into the realm of the OS is, in my personal opinion, the exact _wrong_ thing to do. > I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. They are actually used on FreeBSD, but sometimes require you do do strange things to get them working as intended. ;-) > It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by > Freebsd. Correct - and _that_ is the idea behind a native solution. However, what good is a desktop with no application software? And that kind of software, no matter of you consider boring office stuff, multimedia applications, or games - are still developed with Linux as their primary target. So you can easily conclude that if you don't need HAL and DBus for the native desktop, you'll need it for the GUI DVD creating application you wish to use. > Freebsd should design a gorgeous interface comparable to macos, in > addition to a set of init programs comparable to systemd. Uh... systemd, and the concepts behind it, and especially their implementation over in Linux world is highly debatabe, and among system designers heavily criticized, usually as an approach to "one size fits all egg-laying wool-milk-sow in a black box". The beauty of FreeBSD lies (among others) in the fact that things are logical and predictable. Without even looking, you can tell where certain files are, in what order services will start, or how things are interconnected. With systemd, there's the danger of losing the ability to spot and diagnose problems, because of "black box". > Therefore, > both the bootloader and init programs need to be redesigned. Which boot loader? FreeBSD uses a "multiple stage loader"; see "man 8 boot" for details. As you can see - even _that_ is documented locally, without you requiring to search web forums, user pages, wikis, or anything else scattered online. :-) > For > example, when Linux starts, it displays ok and colored driver loading > reminders. Freebsd can learn from it. FreeBSD _does_ this, if intended. Honestly, I prefer a working driver over one that shows me animated icons - and then crashes. ;-) > I think that the Linux startup > program is not perfect. It is still in the startup mode similar to the > console. What's the problem? On a server or a network appliance, that's what you have to work with. > The more modern startup program should be a perfect > combination of graphical and startup information. Which you cannot see on a server. Bad idea. In my opinion, you should be able - and FreeBSD offers this! - to hide the boot process; but in case something goes wrong, you can still immediately view all steps and error messages in a "live setting" without requiring 3rd party tools to parse binary databases for error messages. > The driver is a flaw > of freebsd. Which driver? > Due to the limited number of developers, a large number of > other systems are required, such as copying from linux. so copy it from > linux. FreeBSD and Linux are different systems. They have lots of stuff in common (which is typical for UNIXes and UNIX-like operating systems), but they are not the same, so 1:1 copying isn't technically possible. > The GPL agreement does not affect the use of freebsd code. Only > in this way can freebsd and linux form a differentiated competition, > can freebsd survive the huge wave of linux. Engaging a discussion about possible licensing issues probably is futile. Let's just agree that there are incompatible models, and all those models have their purpose and intention, and each of them is good for something and someone. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 10:47:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A7A2B354C for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:47:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493Xpg023gz3C2T for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:47:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id j4so1035782otr.11 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 03:47:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lB1hj3SGxzl/K1MGptEN/uqJf50vfi4tHtZruEEACBo=; b=b+rqFqb7FtFKrwrtOuf2/fEr7zgWPfYkAFsaGYl50vfcIQ0jNr3qn8r7ND+yhYsHDW ZJXsMIOUg9d5oqj6A19pM5BK6vnOowxdOrJzZmDCXZcazEzZQlkKLWDCjz0pbmzlTyYs nc2hKZcKpNIf0NlJVhRVYBouU9ZYV5jRN1t2oRn7xJ6kyaogcAOD10aoXarvhwebIvLp RJZbmuBrKN7zruKgpOcqGF9ybnuy98dxVcVz5Cbyt8222abgbcI8ZlyLW9U+qU5He9nZ a3yNbxvuhtBj2y5S+rcICyro7P8HmCC3BJ2wfPhcm88+Arr62oX2FuD1oKefRovqYWFq 0CUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lB1hj3SGxzl/K1MGptEN/uqJf50vfi4tHtZruEEACBo=; b=EhjgetR4WTbtzS8HRu36LULToeBDC7FgGTMZrW2lX9EMRksAT390QPo/z1UgObP7C3 CBLmISsSyHbxdY8iE46VUnQDdna/6oyjt1YEwRlUKBGiK4tUbWJGzow+0JGVtXH+2TER D6/1zrETJh4hARYhnTs9hKDWsdm6TmfsAVzOzI39gPduM+0cNcPJyrjoxdn4a7GH11jN nnVufSV1ULH8EEswYzTXFBSMprgO/wTin/3xfiW6RIhcJ9+jswvtn4iFo+D5M2zxkFgo x4f+ZOdZWpoPlMGA8ns62TIKex13ok0B/TN/yMO4g4MYsG0KMMJ6nNawMxnzgJ54El0s zhDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZMafp87N8M3PyOkE1M0UYfE8rHKMKfL2AKlWVEpYTs3Qzwlk2Q Io3c7NFmOtBwsRuksfreYOwv21yaOAA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJX2XJvy2EB2iLWXfBCV9YzMx0xXxj93USz3X0us+vOLrRzpz5o+mgkhr30Vr8hjz/yCBLxeQ== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6944:: with SMTP id p4mr2074970oto.220.1587120424723; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 03:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f47.google.com (mail-ot1-f47.google.com. [209.85.210.47]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm4447828oto.72.2020.04.17.03.47.03 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 03:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f47.google.com with SMTP id m2so1076052otr.1 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 03:47:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7ca:: with SMTP id 68mr2074472oto.267.1587120423218; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 03:47:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:46:35 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: malaizhichun@tom.com Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493Xpg023gz3C2T X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=b+rqFqb7; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::331) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[tom.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.56)[ip: (-6.99), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:47:08 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:16 AM kindu smith wrote: > First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent > the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface > are too old. It is time to make some changes. If you look closer and understand the approach is far more coherent, flexible, and elegant with its minimalism. We do love the way and we will stick to it because "it just works"^TM. If you prefer something more fancy a Linux would be better for you - choose whatever distribution you like, you can even start your own distribution. We do not want to impose anything on the user, but the user is able to customize the OS as he/she please, this "raw minimalistic approach" gives you freedom. Please consider that deeper than just "too old" - yes BSD is based on UNIX and we do respect the roots :-) FreeBSD is used in various projects as the "secret OS under" the hood that you don't have to share because BSD license allows that. For instance Sony PlayStation 3 and 4 is based on FreeBSD and you must admit its neither old nor obsolete. Also Netflix uses FreeBSD as its core OS for internet services hosting. macOS and iOS is BSD Darwin. You can build anything on BSD starting from Embedded Systems, Multimedia Workstations, Powerful Internet Servers. This OS is just for people with more knowledge and understanding what they do. > I think this will be a perfect design. Go ahead, make it happen, maybe you will gain user base and client base for your product, if you prove these functionalities in a real world industrial conditions I am sure FreeBSD community may consider such option :-) > In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a > complete desktop environment, because this is very important for > novices. I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. > It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by > Freebsd. We do not _need_ to change anything, really, all changes introduced to FreeBSD are well considered and must have some practical outcome. Mostly these are changes coming back from the vendors that use the FreeBSD in their own product and these products are already verified by the real world and market conditions. Please keep in mind that FreeBSD is a base for really lots of commercial and industrial applications. Maintenance and stable work is the ultimate goal, even for the new features, because your business depends on it. You cannot simply walk in and turn things upside down every time someone have a new idea. Sure, you can download the sources and play yourself, but you cannot expect people to flip the OS upside down with anything that could break backward compatibility and disturb maintenance, and most of all introduce anything that is not verified by the real world industrial grade conditions. If you take a closer look this minimalistic and realistic, maybe even conservative, long-term-focused approach is the core of the BSD. On the other hand you have liberal Linux approach where kernel API changes from release to release and no one really cares about compatibility and maintenance before they start acting because they are short-term-focused. If you want to experiment it seems like Linux would be more suitable sandbox for you, they like such experiments and they, we don't. Regarding the WindowManager, again, this is up to you what you want to install, because you are _Free_ to chose. We dont _enforce_ any particular WM because you may also like to use the FreeBSD to run as server. If you prefer GUI Server you can consider using Windows Server. If you really need SystemD go ahead and use Linux, we don't really like it here, and we don't want it here. I personally use Enlightenment WM that also can benefit form systemd but here on FreeBSD these options are simply not compiled in and it works just fine :-) > Freebsd should design a gorgeous interface comparable to macos, in > addition to a set of init programs comparable to systemd. It looks you are dreaming of Hybrid-OS, which is kind of utopia for the moment. There are various OS out there and you can choose the one that suits your needs best.. maybe different ones for different tasks. Remember that macOS is the BSD Unix system adapted by the vendor. If you look closer macOS uses BSD kldlstat not Linux lsmod. Also some people consider Linux SystemD a trojan/backdoor to the system. > Therefore, > both the bootloader and init programs need to be redesigned. And this will end up in the billions of $ loss because factories will stop working :-) Maybe the Debian_GNU kFreeBSD project would be of the interest - it runs Debian on FreeBSD kernel - then you could prove your theory in three simple steps: 1. Turn FreeBSD kernel into microkernel. 2. Run Debian on top of FreeBSD microkernel and get systemd.tom. 3. Run Ubuntu on top to get nice GUI installer and userland. https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD > Only > in this way can freebsd and linux form a differentiated competition, > can freebsd survive the huge wave of linux. FreeBSD is very well. Lots of new features that do not disturb what is already out there in the field. The community is strong, dedicated, and people love it for many reasons. There are people who love Linux. "Apples and Oranges"^TM. This is the freedom of choice :-) Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 11:02:52 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E512B3FBE for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:02:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493Y8p56Z4z3DlT for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:02:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id 19so1831927ioz.10 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:02:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=e+7Rnlz373b5WymodEYkI+337r6+pw085kczrQBRtFo=; b=dOvBT2pqZVYPqsapJzYv1c+sWNyYHbCJyqxP/fNpjTVCiXXy5WF5+YNAMELb340hMG JFutdqOdfH7vmnorTmadVjjG4PVzxFsS7h2QouGVG7ayr4LQs/BNlcbYOe9MijWt6st6 SnueKo7zB19KYjJ5ia4yidE9FzgzhTQ4Ly/+Xm7QllmbGW8Q5lAPABt4UjWnlDAi/ItP MCY+UOkPnpljGbUBb5P6A9/ec9XeO/GK6bR8dIYFIYRUjGA7cf6QpIru+zMhMet61XGW GlgOwUYnsOLyxi/6u34+23f76bALrNzW7TYPWQ1yaSz8F7DwOO1vBneCy8dRd9HME0q+ A60A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=e+7Rnlz373b5WymodEYkI+337r6+pw085kczrQBRtFo=; b=JlIMUcHf1ooPLy02gGAk9sl2jwMTZkQEmb9uPzFSDkVzTYcCiK1d2TdjsFH087qyZB MPoN339/IBVy03hhffi5SobhRVBawd6uE0Tl/A118mqIVrgPDLkIv/bhGjO9Fr5ehZ+W oidAa6Q4RkeLUfTOIeYyLvOr/Yao2cWD7HwhKIjEPJbaTXON2dxZY0xvjutvtw0weuL0 KibOOMUjzAsi4phQ33c1tuN9wfHo7jzP+QeauR/prfWOrlClSpUZMbQvDW+TlGfUefTx Ywjq5H5z7gDX8R+lvkD2/1duF1Wfhf7XVtoWu8HMkRRclXgphtwnO0N+2OieGNg9/eZ6 E8Hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYb+FwcUG9rGXRxMMUIyqC2x93xuY+elcxJaBfc7LkDBSpiBEk3 XrcF7dVV4O2gFtKgXGdfdnENyVIi0CMuaSnWSbE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL9liztQDaGG/KH6+dN3/FQpuAYkmVWr08r1ur8Gous6D2Sff549i49UhAI5KA2n0aEix/zwzCCLc94hbuy4uk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2f08:: with SMTP id q8mr2478623iow.103.1587121369580; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:02:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:02:37 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: malaizhichun@tom.com Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493Y8p56Z4z3DlT X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=dOvBT2pq; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[tom.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.15), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:02:53 -0000 Before getting into detail in the inline comments it is important to note there is small but very important philosophical difference in the design of FreeBSD and Linux. FreeBSD follows the core concept of the Hippocratic Oath: "Do no harm" (aka "if it is not broken don't fix it!") and Linsucks follows the completely idiotic Facebook mantra of: "Iterate fast and break things" (aka Only an idiot would use it in a life critical application.) Note I use FreeBSD in a "soft" life critical application... i.e. the application will not directly kill anyone if it fails, but a failure could lead to critical life saving information not being passed in a timely manner since the data being processed, in real-time, is from medical equipment. In short both as a personal preference and for reasons listed about I would rather use Windows then use Linsucks if FreeBSD was not available in roughly its current form. On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 3:16 AM kindu smith wrote: > Hello, I am a user who likes UNIX-like systems. I have some experience > using GNU / Linux and some experience using freebsd. I like the > architecture of UNIX-like systems, but I am not proficient, so I just > want to mention some improvements. The idea of freebsd experience, > what is unscientific, welcome to advise. > What ever "improvements" are made to FreeBSD must IMO follow the do no harm thinking. Recently there has been a rash of linisms in the ports collection that completely violate the if it is not broken don't fix it aspect. > First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent > the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface > are too old. It is time to make some changes. I think the freebsd with > microkernel will be more stable. The / boot / kernel directory is very > suitable for writing a small kernel, such as named core, and then > design some modules around and package it in this directory. Then, > under / boot, create some new directories such as EFI, API, ABI, model, > etc. to do EFI boot and application program interface, and user space > modules. I think this will be a perfect design. As for the design > pattern of the microkernel, you can refer to haiku (a clone of beos). > In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a > complete desktop environment, because this is very important for > novices. I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. > It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by > Freebsd. > I am writing this response in Firefox on XFCE on a FreeBSD 12.1 machine. So it is provably wrong that no one uses those desktops any more! If anything the GUI team needs to stop chasing after linsucks in every last possible way. I have experienced 5 waves of if is not broken don't fix issues in the last year and all 5 can be traced to the GUI team deciding to fix something that is not broken for no other reason (in their words) "to be more like how linux does it". The current one I am dealing with nothing that depends on QT will compile (including KDE) and the logging from cmake is to opaque to identify what the issue is. > The GPL agreement does not affect the use of freebsd code. Only > in this way can freebsd and linux form a differentiated competition, > can freebsd survive the huge wave of linux. > *NOT* according to GNU who says that all code linked against GPL (even if only calling it very indirectly) most be free beer (not just intellectual freedom). The BSD license allows small indedpend developers, like me, to actually make a living from selling our even when "linked" (as defined by GNU) against a BSD licensed product. A larger example is do you really think Apple (iOS and MacOS are based on BSD) in it's right mind would *EVER* sink billions (by now) into the R&D of something they where forced to give free to anyone who asked for it! (If you do think they should be forced to then you would likely be happier in N. Korea since it is the one remaining communist country). The BSD license is the perfect balance between intellectual freedom and the freedom to not starve unless you are subsidized by a large organization. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 11:17:54 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD4A2B4D77 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:17:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shamim.shahriar@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x72c.google.com (mail-qk1-x72c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493YV95RFZz3FtJ for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:17:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from shamim.shahriar@gmail.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x72c.google.com with SMTP id j4so1899339qkc.11 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:17:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0dtc5DVpwMHbxfmTglfC1DSy5lTkDWR7cwwy+OWVtnI=; b=NxHKgLMoi97hijqcXcjua8ZNRkRGPIcPvgOWQUhjYhiHWBdXP7CB7dywJI8tEBcQ0a bCJznpsItr8wBnUirVleKiDElJEcTamJ1LKNOTAD1fFlmAG4DeXbRr2//rBVfGsuTZji rI848XW+v81Vj8kJR59rhDXvM63PJGobGhjLsnZke2tK5mpup/cxnzO4H/TKjgbkc3jR yAShDIE/wCRf61l7jdmX6mlHZr1zHJ7WGTgiFqiEV54trp27I4sHlXDPDJK6WqYSqHHp y8yjaJ+ovpY8XT4sPgL0WQ7UDQFKec3dWHHB41SLHj6TTcIbhbx+5Ry9G/oxmHVIzZ9o 6EKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0dtc5DVpwMHbxfmTglfC1DSy5lTkDWR7cwwy+OWVtnI=; b=GsxH89zax2ofNGIhA/R4bcNWG8wEBoUJEEJs3G1vaRS2OUqsPgkjUQX/1AGRLUB5cL 3W9sUMTUPBzU2quf3q405lNfZqqvKfgVFGbeMwrRAfyaXCvajj5shlcGBYFL2kDksaiV IPUhdkXIPNmtcn+OCP3W2EM3zZe93OsI14Km8LvaH0ldmsGhH69k0YDnZf7fJQzd8kmT fRQxeIlw1MZAGJsgnCrqMcfQubbhRptV7XfuWhsIWPcGwA8HEhEF3OHVy6xGYMAwgvH/ VFDRSLBGg/fDxVx5huYArE5YrVkQ8445/mgreA2ni8+cFuIkGCD20i4AGZ3ylPHeTY+W Tj4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua00jj1zuiHfRycQRd6coJKNUuX5JtqpiNnO1VMADw5ENIXdBjY c8rQ6I1e3/nORuU5FNElN06t1FN6iu1q3/Z32g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKWU34COaWuZybAJD7pqth4cnqiRUMWI18OjtuckSGJnTRqt8T/spJ0+BIwKJDMm6HwAOlmL9m0MfdpvJfyhMc= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a0c7:: with SMTP id j190mr2464700qke.461.1587122272089; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:17:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Shamim Shahriar Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:17:46 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Rob Belics Cc: "freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493YV95RFZz3FtJ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=NxHKgLMo; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of shamimshahriar@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=shamimshahriar@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-9.14), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[c.2.7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:17:54 -0000 Thanks Rob for putting it so nicely. And if I may please add, all the things asked on the original post are already available in Linux. If the original poster is not happy with Linux with all the bells and whistles, it may make sense to investigate the effect of maintaining those bells and whistles which might be compromising the other features, features that are so adorned in FreeBSD. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not against having new ideas and improvements; I'm against "ideas without thoughts" -- specially the ones that intend to reinvent the fifth wheel on a quad bike. All the best. On Fri, 17 Apr 2020, 10:43 Rob Belics, wrote: > What you are asking is for FreeBSD to turn itself into "not FreeBSD". You > are also asking a bunch of professionals using professional tools to make > it easier for hobbyists. When talking to construction workers, one would > not ask them about pretty colors on their trucks or child safety locks or > "soccer mom" features. We're trying to get work done, not play games. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 11:18:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F772B4ED5 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:18:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493YW85GPlz3G14 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:18:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id m2so1136923otr.1 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:18:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X8hiaHpMPiHViIrhxv93wClFv/o9cLjWQ8sWxgXEsEk=; b=QGL6h3dvV5u90oXcLQPOfv/KKQWQCAKUHwSuffjJkWDO+x7G76WIRDiDuPI0on0dI5 kRPXSVdB23EwLg7SMZ8aQUKmDAVlgPT67WpdP7L1Zy15WYozyTgBp66DTzSrs0eL7wXz CE7VmxaOosAWZMgLiCjZ8G/lbTKRDwRFIWn8j7gkreaDyxcevFsvqEEnqDQWtZhmcEAa +LMwwmKBombK4IJC4sJZtBoC0vqWvd1hc7dtiu4pySwS8yjUtBsi2XbcjnQ43NPDaZVE AxVPuPOI5270drm6WRP7EL7VcoWaIaCDkjpPemycMkfjxzlmCUJiYUdtQXMXW7leFgzb fPXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X8hiaHpMPiHViIrhxv93wClFv/o9cLjWQ8sWxgXEsEk=; b=DveGEIgRrYm0y+/xRTF/Pe5f8X+QjxUFjBvJ/NCSmj8xJCiAIJF9aOBHaqalO7uykm abrg6qYcGNVHVhDPgGeA+8aEfUv8kOIwBXtVhMLZywlHMtKsOIXZws3wrQ3U8tWImUIf zsSsCgbwfFk7hIWsaYhHUKs/Y+93j4PUzRCjjOiCTo4lqg9cHI4vWm0hebJSKpZVIDHp igqCqk2vvZ9vG4qFC95r3iYTfcC92FnkJc+6wiyHIGekuqITQS+rdgZO/6UMuTmAoTgC o/E/p8zjxj4SneWZ0zoeCUIjJCX0szRx0F1Up5XCtZeNv+KAXD3U0ldYmX/+b70c60uj eFbg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaX8h6gS3z6Bb9LYnyUGwXZiWIEXoIT5HW4Ez1SsxzsLHi6gjt8 M6FKIWkGMSYV234nR3rul9RZysa+yZo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLwT3JJp69zDmutJcWX+kpkg+yC6i/UPFd1HIKLvtUMTCxrO2VxAs1C15NE9t/6mZkdVwgBJA== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6ac6:: with SMTP id m6mr705923otq.215.1587122323753; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f49.google.com (mail-ot1-f49.google.com. [209.85.210.49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 186sm8411265ooi.30.2020.04.17.04.18.42 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f49.google.com with SMTP id m18so1104755otq.9 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:18:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:108c:: with SMTP id y12mr2015681oto.159.1587122322681; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 04:18:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:18:14 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493YW85GPlz3G14 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=QGL6h3dv; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::331) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.87 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.57)[ip: (-7.02), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:18:45 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:03 PM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > In short both as a personal preference and for reasons listed about I would > rather use Windows then use Linsucks if FreeBSD was not available in > roughly its current form. For this reason we should provide a compressed images of the whole FreeBSD source code repository and from time to time store it on a BD-DL (50GB) disks in case of zombie apocalypse we are not really doomed :-) :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 12:05:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0552B6C6C for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:05:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: from rancor.immure.com (108-84-10-9.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.84.10.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "darth.immure.com", Issuer "darth.immure.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493ZYc3KlYz3Jvb for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:05:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: from rancor.immure.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rancor.immure.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03HC5mdK016127 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:05:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by rancor.immure.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03HC5mcq016126 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:05:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:05:48 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: questions list Subject: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? Message-ID: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> Reply-To: Bob Willcox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493ZYc3KlYz3Jvb X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bob@rancor.immure.com has no SPF policy when checking 108.84.10.9) smtp.mailfrom=bob@rancor.immure.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.45 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[bob@immure.com]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.29)[ip: (0.17), ipnet: 108.64.0.0/11(0.08), asn: 7018(1.24), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[immure.com]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.97)[0.968,0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.997,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bob@immure.com,bob@rancor.immure.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7018, ipnet:108.64.0.0/11, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bob@immure.com,bob@rancor.immure.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:05:57 -0000 I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that is essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have openoffice installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. Thanks, Bob -- Bob Willcox | It's possible that the whole purpose of your life is to bob@immure.com | serve as a warning to others. Austin, TX | From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 12:32:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C2E2B78D5 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:32:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darcy@druid.net) Received: from mail.vex.net (mail.vex.net [98.158.139.68]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493b886Qjlz3Lg2 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:32:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from darcy@druid.net) Received: from dilbert.druid.net (unknown [98.160.82.8]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: darcy) by mail.vex.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BBF384009 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> From: D'Arcy Cain Autocrypt: addr=darcy@druid.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXno+ARYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAR2o17zm/M442SONWLjdQ/8Jpro8TbnUm/m1r4MHhygS0 HUQnQXJjeSBDYWluIDxkYXJjeUBkcnVpZC5uZXQ+iJYEExYIAD4WIQQZ0YBgv7psnnP4U/Hh AAd6d7lwwgUCXno+AQIbAwUJCWYBgAULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDhAAd6 d7lwwvvTAQCfxQvyB5M06arZ2cL4LDj0wVxG9ay0PTR+qrQQ9DhevAD+I7W9XlbX6qL3gfDe A0wmuPKWrdSRWEcagXI1sGSC3Ay4OAReej4BEgorBgEEAZdVAQUBAQdAbPzu0iryH2ph9hjN L+Cu1Wo85QbDLV174RHCnjmD5WMDAQgHiH4EGBYIACYWIQQZ0YBgv7psnnP4U/HhAAd6d7lw wgUCXno+AQIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRDhAAd6d7lwwhb/AQD/8Vd7zTK1s3g4bFCApa3W4zSqUa3/ 9trMr0wfaEOngAEA8iWgHnExoVEdLo9542+dJ8K0L7ntWdfIZLgCXK/2OQ8= Message-ID: <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:32:22 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VF5Dp1oHby0kaCKsj5TzVmAIbixLwVDYp" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493b886Qjlz3Lg2 X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of darcy@druid.net has no SPF policy when checking 98.158.139.68) smtp.mailfrom=darcy@druid.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.21 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.11)[ip: (-3.87), ipnet: 98.158.139.0/24(-1.93), asn: 19842(0.33), country: CA(-0.09)]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/mixed,text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:~]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[68.139.158.98.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:19842, ipnet:98.158.139.0/24, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[druid.net]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:32:26 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --VF5Dp1oHby0kaCKsj5TzVmAIbixLwVDYp Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="dltO0nk7oDCDHBnrBkgiaiki6kZGJMxQu" --dltO0nk7oDCDHBnrBkgiaiki6kZGJMxQu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2020-04-17 07:05, Bob Willcox wrote: > I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that = is > essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have ope= noffice > installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. What is the intended purpose. A spreadsheet program is designed to be very flexible and allow many different uses. If you have a very specific use something else may make more sense and be even smaller if that is one of the requirements. If you do need a spreadsheet anyway, knowing the intended use may determine what products you need. Not all programs may have the features you need. --=20 D'Arcy J.M. Cain | Democracy is three wolves http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on +1 416 788 2246 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner. IM: darcy@VybeNetworks.com, VoIP: sip:darcy@druid.net --dltO0nk7oDCDHBnrBkgiaiki6kZGJMxQu-- --VF5Dp1oHby0kaCKsj5TzVmAIbixLwVDYp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQQZ0YBgv7psnnP4U/HhAAd6d7lwwgUCXpmh1gAKCRDhAAd6d7lw wqOgAQDpYHvH3Ns4MsCTczE+WNkQUKR5wShzLGTHdrxnn8P4CwD+JeFGj/TZ4meS DnRU38Uz0EtMan7QRFNVNS/7RZ6ouQA= =PIQJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VF5Dp1oHby0kaCKsj5TzVmAIbixLwVDYp-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 12:51:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F9A2B8115 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:51:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gautier.wojda@stormshield.eu) Received: from work.stormshield.eu (gwlille.netasq.com [91.212.116.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493bZF5t10z3MVg for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:51:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gautier.wojda@stormshield.eu) Received: from work.stormshield.eu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by work.stormshield.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6713737C4F3B for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:51:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by work.stormshield.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBB637C5550 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:51:32 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 work.stormshield.eu 4EBB637C5550 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stormshield.eu; s=BBC9ECEA-016A-11EA-9CC1-8A393C11FBBB; t=1587127892; bh=i1s5GRheNHW0+h4xJu2+jy47itSGb06BBSEsyM+hnGA=; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:MIME-Version; b=tqKsh71JvPhoBuTissSD985b+dHdFo3hT+CqrcFloxVDmwUk3T5kLHjHWaH//W0mK /KXUcsRW/Vbrv9ySUroygPAuANVk8YTFxqzD6W2zo03VEGYhbyttskHVtOyIkCTy4K tMvkzaVgyWbWObHHOYhey4yFsRQU9I/OVtlcCY6G9j9V59Yn0r6VKzmQ4G443OrDJQ S+UVg66mNHEkaJMWyZOxUPne86o3aD5DR6QoVgrVTSUd7G+6y2tpjmHdxafXMpM5ND SqlzYZFzc2bwnlcwPfMTe8xYU8ABjFRymBrXeAWWMtRHAN8u7ZpadBRgFddBtecYBY /VTLwHX+RAeqQ== Received: from work.stormshield.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (work.stormshield.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id zac5TDswyFb9 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:51:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from work.stormshield.eu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by work.stormshield.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E8837C4F3B for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:51:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:51:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Gautier WOJDA To: freebsd-questions Message-ID: <520066904.4728350.1587127892159.JavaMail.zimbra@stormshield.eu> Subject: Freebsd 13 bootloader lua failed to load kernel MIME-Version: 1.0 Thread-Index: naPm1pKZr4zo7wr7PQwetgwC16PA+A== Thread-Topic: Freebsd 13 bootloader lua failed to load kernel X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493bZF5t10z3MVg X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=stormshield.eu header.s=BBC9ECEA-016A-11EA-9CC1-8A393C11FBBB header.b=tqKsh71J; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of gautier.wojda@stormshield.eu designates 91.212.116.1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gautier.wojda@stormshield.eu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.97 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.925,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[stormshield.eu:s=BBC9ECEA-016A-11EA-9CC1-8A393C11FBBB]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:91.212.116.1:c]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[stormshield.eu]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/mixed,text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.971,0]; IP_SCORE(0.43)[ip: (1.13), ipnet: 91.212.116.0/24(0.57), asn: 49068(0.45), country: FR(0.00)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[stormshield.eu:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.116.212.91.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:49068, ipnet:91.212.116.0/24, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:51:34 -0000 Hi, We need to build the new freebsd bootloader in lua from freebsd head, and it doesn't work as expected. I compile like this : MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/tmp/obj make -C stand -j4 WITHOUT_FORTH=yes WITH_LOADER_LUA=yes MK_LOADER_ZFS=no MK_BEARSSL=yes MACHINE_CPUARCH=amd64 MACHINE_ARCH=amd64 Then i copy boot, loader_lua (and i rename loader_lua as loader), and lua directory in my /boot directory. I get this error elf64_loadimage: read failed. Can't load kernel (see: screen.png in copy to the mail for more information) If i use the loader compiled in my freebsd13 virtual machine, kernel load works. Any idea what I'm missing? Thank's Gautier W. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 12:54:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07712B8448 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:54:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493bdh3Mfrz3Mk8 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:54:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.118.76]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1M8hlZ-1jKlgR42bp-004msd; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:54:27 +0200 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:54:26 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Bob Willcox Cc: questions list Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? Message-Id: <20200417145426.7bcdd5ad.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:iC3bxqN71yBQUx3ofhFwTt2giFAVmlto29oTUd8/TPL1OCDpIjJ P2vf/Re9RacQjpMwsP+BhjoWqf9xWpQV+Hd5R8NnKnNnmG/4RePZc9rPLbxQ3XCqaXgmreJ 5ExA9duJnXNkYKt0adSaZVR0hVoecw3/Pm5Xhb+GoNX+yXYWCwhvbMly0h/CgVtuiUEfuC0 +FOOep/mxJtIUhV8UP8Fg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:rbGQ7qiyUNA=:B/Vfv8R4Lj6b8QUvN8ZfMT U/kU9WMf6cSfL4LFljCaO1rHMqOrDJBvdWrWHC51tqEJQ+vo54jovfO6wtjdBT7syfBQet+d2 UL/kpEcMmhiTbISjcycDLewAxUvirlk0p5jEinKBIRJqSX97kuNzxBHrRbfXX7NO0k5NGXmpv HFBG4vfFZERRuDFQbrIUxh8jvaqCCE+XQ/iTuKW10AVKdhIZnAqrDHzLuC8ABgz1r9u+yxBS/ 8fQTykBtljY8ZK2zes6LHcLnRlzhEyik5Ius7Zn3Ybq2rS5WsAdlBHuDHRHo9knfNr2hOIWG5 Wb1UF7EEDRbS8xSIALPU27jQMNgVQxgMhw5c8dFqQjwR7RtzaCuE7rvDx/A+KN9H6puxuFloZ qvfCgc3g1S/nDFpMkSOpea516zdxk40e5pda4ESKJzl86SnOLrt3f4og4DxGBfriIJMq+Qnl0 FPAQDp8xErbmArnnuzCwVJN/eY6ebgX8isjjmDOhFmUi3oHCnfscvgSmp050FbCz6IxV0A0oS 6J/PEuGrNzcBEj1osgBxOL8K5IYDp1/xjFWJOyf5e3gcbJIVjRbtnkBWBKc1TPxzchozWT4CF VvbsW7TBlpkRqVPCh9MMLz+khR+Efvxe7enEWR+jnbvHXwgPsrOIrHGKDDhDVeR2zosHtkcZN z9ZffD3NqXlQ1qOGFwmIW2SCLJhTNadkNR5EAr8kXwW9InVyy830eKxHZBrIhIU1B1JVQJwSr 0EFCkv6r/IppnGXQ4AVkvkm3wOFIAclMpqnxkhD43HnKd5bSTQBrl9Ve4hoHWqk1PYxwED3HL PjdZ9Em5sJc5JzbmuC1lnaPAbmWODyLuVk/q/0rC1x3JFwR8y1p95kEseoMqHvmUoUP0cCQ X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493bdh3Mfrz3Mk8 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.126.133) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.60 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[76.118.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.89)[0.892,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.999,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[133.126.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.31)[ip: (0.64), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.19), asn: 8560(2.09), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:54:33 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:05:48 -0500, Bob Willcox wrote: > I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that is > essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have openoffice > installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. Maybe Gnumeric (part of the "Gnome office suite") can be installed without any other office suite components. Maybe it can do what you need? However, this is just a guess as you didn't state what you need - maybe an awk script with its output piped to enscript is sufficient... ;-) If I remember correctle, KDE also has (had?) an office suite, but I'm not sure their components can be installed as individual programs. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 13:06:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42122B8F03 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:06:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@osfux.nl) Received: from vm1982.osfux.nl (vm1982.osfux.nl [79.99.187.212]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493bvn1qPbz3Npk for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:06:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mail@osfux.nl) Received: from vm1982.osfux.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vm1982.osfux.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43FBB20123 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:06:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none shortcircuit=no X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.3 Received: from [192.168.9.195] (unknown [95.174.67.156]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by vm1982.osfux.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:06:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: iscsi + restoring zfs snapshot To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <0ead1643-0fa3-3a89-2d2b-9086a46af6f6@osfux.nl> From: Ruben Message-ID: <0027cc2b-124f-bef3-f1aa-5c50a1c819b1@osfux.nl> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:06:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0ead1643-0fa3-3a89-2d2b-9086a46af6f6@osfux.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493bvn1qPbz3Npk X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.81 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[osfux.nl:s=default]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; IP_SCORE(0.18)[asn: 8315(0.88), country: NL(0.03)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[osfux.nl:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[osfux.nl,reject]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8315, ipnet:79.99.184.0/21, country:NL]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:06:46 -0000 Hi, Still having trouble understanding this... Any pointers? Regards, Ruben On 4/12/20 11:10 AM, Ruben via freebsd-questions wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a couple of linux clients that mount an iscsi target provided by > a zfs filesystem on a FreeBSD host. > Yesterday I messed things up and I am trying to restore a snapshot to > revert the changes. > > I seem to be able to do so, but since the result is somewhat unexepected > I'm probably going the wrong way about it.  The strange thing is that > the snapshot restored from 2 weeks ago contains changes from last night :S > > This is the FS: > > zfs get all data/Docker/torrent > NAME                 PROPERTY VALUE                  SOURCE > data/Docker/torrent  type volume                 - > data/Docker/torrent  creation              Sun Dec  1 21:04 2019  - > data/Docker/torrent  used 56.8G                  - > data/Docker/torrent  available 93.0G                  - > data/Docker/torrent  referenced 19.7G                  - > data/Docker/torrent  compressratio 1.00x                  - > data/Docker/torrent  reservation none                   default > data/Docker/torrent  volsize 30G                    local > data/Docker/torrent  volblocksize 8K                     default > data/Docker/torrent  checksum on                     default > data/Docker/torrent  compression off                    default > data/Docker/torrent  readonly off                    default > data/Docker/torrent  createtxg 22810439               - > data/Docker/torrent  copies 1                      default > data/Docker/torrent  refreservation 30.9G                  local > data/Docker/torrent  guid 15050313927458195147   - > data/Docker/torrent  primarycache all                    default > data/Docker/torrent  secondarycache all                    default > data/Docker/torrent  usedbysnapshots 6.12G                  - > data/Docker/torrent  usedbydataset 19.7G                  - > data/Docker/torrent  usedbychildren 0                      - > data/Docker/torrent  usedbyrefreservation 30.9G                  - > data/Docker/torrent  logbias latency                default > data/Docker/torrent  dedup off                    default > data/Docker/torrent mlslabel                                     - > data/Docker/torrent  sync standard               default > data/Docker/torrent  refcompressratio 1.00x                  - > data/Docker/torrent  written 17.1K                  - > data/Docker/torrent  logicalused 12.1G                  - > data/Docker/torrent  logicalreferenced 9.25G                  - > data/Docker/torrent  volmode dev                    local > data/Docker/torrent  snapshot_limit none                   default > data/Docker/torrent  snapshot_count none                   default > data/Docker/torrent  redundant_metadata all                    default > > These are its snapshots: > > zfs list -t snapshot -r data/Docker/torrent > NAME                                           USED  AVAIL REFER > MOUNTPOINT > data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-15_09.05.00--90d   677M      - 6.30G  - > data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-22_09.05.00--90d   783M      - 6.57G  - > data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-29_09.05.00--90d   798M      - 6.65G  - > data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-07_09.05.00--90d   693M      - 8.71G  - > data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-14_09.05.00--90d   684M      - 11.2G  - > data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-21_09.05.00--90d   611M      - 13.9G  - > data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-28_09.05.00--90d   864M      - 18.1G  - > data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d  17.1K      - 19.7G  - > [root@gneisenau:/usr/home/fux]# > > This is my restore attempt: > > zfs send data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-14_09.05.00--90d | zfs receive > data/restoredfromsnapshot > > If I unmount the FS from the client, and export this new FS instead as: > >     lun 3 { >         path /dev/zvol/data/restoredfromsnapshot >         size 30G >     } > > , restart ctld,  mount that on the same linux client (but with the "ro" > option): > > /dev/sdd on /mnt/restored_data type ext4 (ro,noatime,stripe=256,_netdev) > > it contains : > > root@torrent:/mnt/restored_data# ls -laht > total 44K > drwxr-xr-x  5 root root 4.0K Apr 12 10:23 .. > drwx--x--x 14 root root 4.0K Apr 11 21:06 docker > drwxrwxr-x  8 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 . > drwxr-xr-x  3 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 deluge_config > drwxr-xr-x  3 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 docker_volumes > drwxr-xr-x  2 root root 4.0K May 21  2019 downloads > drwxr-xr-x  2 root root 4.0K May 21  2019 sickrage > drwx------  2 root root  16K May 21  2019 lost+found > root@torrent:/mnt/restored_data# > > changes from way after 2020-03-14 , including those from last night . > > Huh? I'm using zfSnap for creating the snapshots, like this: > > /usr/local/sbin/zfSnap -s -z -a 90d -r data/Docker > > My first attempt to rollback yesterday's changes involved using the > rollback option ( zfs rollback -r > data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d ) but that did not work > either (yesterday's changes were not reverted). > > Somebody got any insights as to why i'm unable to revert yesterday's > changes? > > Any feedback appreciated! > > Kind regards, > > Ruben > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to > "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 14:00:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186D92BA5C4 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:00:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493d641sh1z3xLf for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:00:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: vH67oS8VM1n56kdNniwnMeYrdZNGwOqM04Wvs46_Vqlh16Vsek_rSc_71cRscUr .gLTd5DDrYFGE.ld99Y_DWJb80_SxWy_7XuK9wvZTtRTVNyLxgyQoK8ssAAD5AD1L3w43yU9R71H JINGwr3cvlgLAOeHU6vAhHllOwr9SkTO3rZOVkwtPNm18ZG946NwPsXCJXom9oH2Wq6QxSmcXGTm L1IBn6MRp3HMkocI9hwDN2peo1kpKf6VPQ32t6QHddnQdglymK9UcxNWgMHE4EohIu3TWZfxnRXF W_WH_zpWlOLkswZCGtcWoigsG6C7c4FtsEVq9N9Q7AIOunqlTmH52nfxgfKAeE7X5TtS9CY6SS1Z ubqDVMmiaxHH4TTuOvwCxZIoz4Qpq7JJlOGZZFDiJKYreZmSAeex6zZoanjVDe81fOHhzxZCaWkp _mTp36a.qsaj1FUUFUGV7RPuzcZfSeiMKeo3iifeVFpSBVj.tz0JjNooQxtXpp2QBI2thEbTttrp QCP34zSTi2jPi2PsJDkcgTV4gVmCO0BjZnaRDjV1Ff.iR7H5VoCzMiV.SSzskUKaSVPZ2M0ff51I PX.IWZhiJTeVpGMupw24FCBFFwyH9AjNwvaKZue8fkL1o9bKP4Sqyqnk3jFwmN51HJ5B7zgkgzRi xS..PQ66hXvV_fggPNrldHQRrOGJBzwsJeWjcbPZXdkPvxasbPJ_UDtQYlpylXdMZtr6gMYBIOyk Z0lGtKcFOw__UHqUWY0wskBD96s19nDfZOuel.w8LNWgG578s1tn2XBcPZv70wAoM7yaYFQSm.n6 rBQK_Si3dAL9_dHsOhZ6o8bOI_B3BhwbTSUD_VwdWUgwNlHAu1SkZarMFnql.Nemjx_Bx2n9Br50 G6HFH_UokH1.cxnfzqCMw0_EewyXZRuk55BCBMZDTeR0OkvCsx_187_fMBQdd96sAMBN5gaVsqGh L8uQSMnK1FgI4Xq.F5oCSSxHUA0eHHA4HWIB9sGbfKLwYvN4SBfCkTfDTqNjheVeRHB8FFRPkuvf zC9PGRjkZWkvhoTRbkRGnjY_yg1rYaT0jJ957.RXm2oX.br5w_hVXh87u67VYJsELJN6Njiu7ANp iuDXVTsYAEmVXoh4zlrBydPlNsbOJO3DIPne2pfiHzqvwBgyDjqu8vqRc2_xhYW07XQHpRUwtrWs DGugctU6avS.2CFc9Ak9lvOtiRmBTU6cBeumRyOP2Ix0Xp.wsKcoHNmyxx_EgBfcWTVEICQ4CU_i mKmqfkI8DV4ggcLA1lqLs7ogNOCG9vObVPVozQCaZV9BLgJsSoVaCzDXPyGR5rdQ9QIS4HxYjaCR 1_1DwF_LJ.Ky288s.eNi0ecG4Eg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:00:42 +0000 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:00:38 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: "freebsd-questions@freebsd.org" Message-ID: <126220609.2132808.1587132038870@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:56.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/56.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493d641sh1z3xLf X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.92 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.931,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.987,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[200.184.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.18), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[200.184.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:00:45 -0000 Hi all! Just as an fyi, after I found out that TrueOS will no longer support a desk= top and various other things, I went looking.... I found GhostBSD.=C2=A0 I have my gf and her 80+ y.o. mother on it.=C2=A0 I= t's very, very nice. It even performs simple updates without issue.=C2=A0 I've been running it f= or about 1 year and NO ISSUES. :) Paul From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 14:06:48 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B42B2BAAB4 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:06:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493dF306xTz3y2R for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:06:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.118.76]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MysFQ-1j3uJh3W9y-00vzQi; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:06:39 +0200 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:06:39 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Paul Pathiakis Cc: Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questions Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-Id: <20200417160639.9f676ebd.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <126220609.2132808.1587132038870@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <126220609.2132808.1587132038870@mail.yahoo.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ySnKq1dqW9mBTgIpEyBBrRZ64trA63/Vgj/66U8yMbmde5FReOT LYX4LJu4DXortcYWRxfg7r+6wcVDEjRtq9RPOKUyAmqoy2ne6qKwS5dhodqbLO9kBTEhk7b tFTUg0Kx9rJ/dZPQzTlilu5874NUR2F16q0reBRGCPcYUIu3JHHsbPQ4TfEBxTOe3IdZ+Mw iYJgCcQW/dfIDaNpiqWUA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:efgWV/NXiOQ=:XexArCWlWbc9ekVe7HuwQT d9xWqu7AJDyLVYZ+xYkc7rxNeAjnKLFrFuB8NBptQezUU3iMdOIm9ql8nkI9L8TskIOHvXn68 uZ96O/BdqNSdoRXh67ics5UZEp86MwlS0v5hANKGl5asO0Jy3sIvACajFWK0pl4ChRDYsRMgB ZAH/rnzMOCaABkyaUs5OC1RN679T+I4hngfTbA+CMSTunG3s6/8Q1v+XwD1iXn2dvWOXUhpb5 rn94jqTZPwDBLH+5OFcEpZ3E9pqEiHeK1gp8IVLlvv+RZlkQUwTgpm4WofEZ99HyqU7qgwvab t2Hbz0kPh5o7Aa2WCqTy1dQ3dolZhxxP7q5xFEvLHr3An6BlYX7KsU/FYZhPyun1QsMVL0gQB kTJQ+YF77oKcQytJxRv4z2IQK+qLxnXdSHkMWwUZ2eFhIl15avOn1u4esf0NXoo8RsQ96PD1I PESrC9y7W8DMJ8Gpg9HzOpMiX0frRfnVw1wrEia46T33dVfCegX3DNqeySIjXKjtX99l8f5Nu Q+U67ZCmrbltVbNEz+IaffbD9OuWDsmnADfgYnS95BG/FpESvO2mE3O621UMMxBnfAWmx5Oou PSPiyC9YPytY8lInAvV1aDUjTC7BJ3g3xJqEqHRbhJfscZbxUt6h0r93uVJeOZ0TlZQF5VAy6 dj1B3vD4MoCjigyccSpYFjwGp8w17AuPy7iSU+0EYak9t8JhhgocB71MhSL+sWFzE6NWmgbsw iiXzkxS4fdBg7OyvYFoxiMxHtY4WBHpmUKNwnEp4kbgtthd/htr+9E6/j0YkB3s0Z5EQcsf2a xWmZuFxV1Py+XWRZFuU9kpsQVKFSHA0/fpOKXZhbxVRHq1UcsqsAqzrU31n/7gsjUkL+CMA X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493dF306xTz3y2R X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.74 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[76.118.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.27)[0.271,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.98)[0.977,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[13.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[13.17.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.09)[ip: (-0.44), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.19), asn: 8560(2.09), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:06:48 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:00:38 +0000 (UTC), Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questi= ons wrote: > Just as an fyi, after I found out that TrueOS will no longer > support a desktop and various other things, I went looking.... > I found GhostBSD.=A0 I have my gf and her 80+ y.o. mother on it.=A0 > It's very, very nice. > It even performs simple updates without issue.=A0 I've been > running it for about 1 year and NO ISSUES. :) Thank you - very nice pointer! I will definitely try it, especially because it uses MATE as desktop. The only concern I might have is... does it support german language for the application programs? German, Mensch! Do you speak it?! - Deutsch gut. - What? ;-) --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 14:56:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7292BC2CD for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:56:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from vie01a-dmta-at52-1.mx.upcmail.net (vie01a-dmta-at52-1.mx.upcmail.net [62.179.121.142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493fKv0G4vz42mg for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:56:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dr.klepp@gmx.at) Received: from [172.31.216.41] (helo=vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50) by vie01a-dmta-at52.mx.upcmail.net with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jPSJg-0004CZ-C1 for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:50:04 +0200 Received: from x61.lan ([85.126.97.210]) by vie01a-pemc-psmtp-at50 with SMTP @ mailcloud.upcmail.net id Tqq32201L4YLlkt0Bqq4rX; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:50:04 +0200 X-SourceIP: 85.126.97.210 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=O6RJhF1W c=1 sm=2 tr=0 cx=a_idp_f a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:117 a=/Ac8Q0O/YFE5LOLfUiYZVw==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=eHL4P6T5Issbh7DMBnkA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 From: "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:50:00 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.10 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <126220609.2132808.1587132038870@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <126220609.2132808.1587132038870@mail.yahoo.com> X-KMail-QuotePrefix: > MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <202004171650.00152.dr.klepp@gmx.at> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493fKv0G4vz42mg X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=fail (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dr.klepp@gmx.at does not designate 62.179.121.142 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dr.klepp@gmx.at X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.78 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_SPF_FAIL(1.00)[-all]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[gmx.at]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.98)[0.984,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; FROM_NAME_HAS_TITLE(1.00)[dr]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ipnet: 62.179.0.0/17(0.99), asn: 6830(3.69), country: AT(-0.10)]; FORGED_MUA_KMAIL_MSGID(3.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[142.121.179.62.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmx.at]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6830, ipnet:62.179.0.0/17, country:AT]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:56:03 -0000 Anno domini 14:00:38 Fri, 17 Apr 2020 +0000 (UTC) Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questions scripsit: > Hi all! > Just as an fyi, after I found out that TrueOS will no longer support a de= sktop and various other things, I went looking.... > I found GhostBSD.=C2=A0 I have my gf and her 80+ y.o. mother on it.=C2=A0= It's very, very nice. > It even performs simple updates without issue.=C2=A0 I've been running it= for about 1 year and NO ISSUES. :) > Paul Did you get localisation other than englisch working? Nik > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" >=20 =2D-=20 Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing w= ith the NSA, CIA ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 15:06:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960492BCACD for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: from rancor.immure.com (108-84-10-9.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.84.10.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "darth.immure.com", Issuer "darth.immure.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493fYQ0G4vz43v7 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:06:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: from rancor.immure.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rancor.immure.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03HF5plp016474 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:05:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by rancor.immure.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03HF5pVo016473; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:05:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:05:51 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: "D'Arcy Cain" Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? Message-ID: <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493fYQ0G4vz43v7 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bob@rancor.immure.com has no SPF policy when checking 108.84.10.9) smtp.mailfrom=bob@rancor.immure.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.42 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[bob@immure.com]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.29)[ip: (0.16), ipnet: 108.64.0.0/11(0.08), asn: 7018(1.24), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[immure.com]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.94)[0.942,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.994,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bob@immure.com,bob@rancor.immure.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7018, ipnet:108.64.0.0/11, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bob@immure.com,bob@rancor.immure.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:06:03 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 07:32:22AM -0500, D'Arcy Cain wrote: > On 2020-04-17 07:05, Bob Willcox wrote: > > I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that is > > essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have openoffice > > installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. > > What is the intended purpose. A spreadsheet program is designed to be > very flexible and allow many different uses. If you have a very > specific use something else may make more sense and be even smaller if > that is one of the requirements. > > If you do need a spreadsheet anyway, knowing the intended use may > determine what products you need. Not all programs may have the > features you need. Thanks for your response. What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as my intended use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and their cost and have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. Bob -- Bob Willcox | It's possible that the whole purpose of your life is to bob@immure.com | serve as a warning to others. Austin, TX | From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 15:09:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32E92BCCCD for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:09:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.191.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493fd55klGz44FZ for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:09:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 3svU.5AVM1kUL7yyS4y5V0XQmyfls_oIGPpDVN2vy.HCEzcaTuvibLNL0vKyBHq 8SZrdhvB2.iz5PgKp0.OaOTnAC6p9U4Sz3_2Xx3b4t5nNyIaSRXLRy2639Isb9rOGiTZSsKTUhMf 8Mu1rVogNLxCH2SGJilhTw7R0QJrnMoqVtD1l3YwzqpkyWfoRFxobGAOpYC9qXP5MqGWQI729KUc Q3W8Wtzz1WmtW7QKVbEW97wPAxpVe80ODWUQ.2x5Gu44N.0G561nv6RHtfvAAbvimn7gSoJ5U413 QPYRI15YRwy.IyoLNFi_j1iW_7mZ.LyOXWkwAyRYUjcFNQI45quYOxZcBfXR__dhyl89HSgLYVSk c1ih4jMxQWUjkabpD0WLXLtkGFvCGEwx89ElO6Ep_9LNxSuyIkXKd1uUdh5z4zQj_BcJGtldc4qp LSPZXq4ol3IFV1juBaI._sx.Cq4aohBJQotaFW3Fwwwl2_HMBCi31TLsxBq.E1_8J6.epwllGe5s kZfyLLu_8jUgj9MqPvQRDzRotYabb86KtKZJ8Bwgz8zBisqEkDscdpVZ7QpvDF3FqlacZ437bbpL dbkEwHdJI4T65Es.Gdkb1t0kAwPylc7hlI9VbbWfvt9LYHO8QHaatIgcePv8qFC1uEFOXVg4Y48B 7fBqAVnf1.ePFVG5FkXV0Zmrd059TRqbuC4IAXB9CJzvLo1hmH2X70Gr.IMtegpmOI4B01fs7wFl _N.UuC.7IF6SybhAWq7UGKmU3bHaCeBd4biWzdL6e4jRJnPK28rGcXIbNXvbj7ynDidcAjF900gz 1FiiE7ev.Xzj.xP0BH8a4pW1Swo4WJCEfIiMwiTsGRs4EZsbve6hehg_0h5HUwg8K3jZiPyjzHY4 .WZyji__E03jFJD0cfa7YiyyrRf9sJ3UI3nnIztz2WGpYQlNpHAgQNELm7ZlsoSLJwkPgC21.Ooi 8Y6JeUbrnPk_FEvCF4vBCuQWNeoXfJOwQB2xkd.n_xiz0oCUcy.Jyc4Z3o3.qgFCClMZeaL8GgvX jIgQI1z2TVDgtcsj7iRpRxTcyhmujuQzDxYdpxXk1FvC7XrIapzJ7IsMdqjtyN4MKD3UjU4v3.xi O1Fxa8jRSy24PU2SN3U41LrPkQ5y41ga.nMn5A4iGwOq441SDUoe6wfb7eGTFWkgOnNQLl_PFNgN dCpTMUgYMYE7vNbm6Y4ikEtsQgo0hv.H4lzjM6Gfe94FDtmCxG37ehmrw7MGzqQbwl2AJfI1YZpu DJvHCpxCorMhSD4ITyJlkRnKw2VyG6BtnW1l3UdPZ_Y9a9OAp2IA0Sdrk_pK90U4C4PRnlbRjcRh 1zUEonYF4kEcxL4Qyw.NP70iiV2Ytkc5cRsv37rdmYnD_sDw9 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:09:12 +0000 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:09:06 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" Message-ID: <1094573143.2169199.1587136146991@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <202004171650.00152.dr.klepp@gmx.at> References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <126220609.2132808.1587132038870@mail.yahoo.com> <202004171650.00152.dr.klepp@gmx.at> Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:75.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/75.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493fd55klGz44FZ X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.87 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.887,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[147.191.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.981,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[147.191.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.92), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:09:14 -0000 Sorry, I'm in the USA and didn't try anything but English localization. Paul On Friday, April 17, 2020, 10:56:13 AM EDT, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: =20 =20 Anno domini 14:00:38 Fri, 17 Apr 2020 +0000 (UTC) Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-questions scripsit: > Hi all! > Just as an fyi, after I found out that TrueOS will no longer support a de= sktop and various other things, I went looking.... > I found GhostBSD.=C2=A0 I have my gf and her 80+ y.o. mother on it.=C2=A0= It's very, very nice. > It even performs simple updates without issue.=C2=A0 I've been running it= for about 1 year and NO ISSUES. :) > Paul Did you get localisation other than englisch working? Nik > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" >=20 --=20 Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing w= ith the NSA, CIA ... _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 15:13:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23672BCF98 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:13:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from bede.qeng-ho.org (bede.qeng-ho.org [217.155.128.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493fjh3Gqlz44dV for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:13:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@qeng-ho.org) Received: from arthur.home.qeng-ho.org (arthur.home.qeng-ho.org [172.23.1.2]) by bede.qeng-ho.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4F110634; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:13:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? To: Bob Willcox Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> From: Arthur Chance Message-ID: <6c627b31-af61-96f8-bd9a-3010a52483d1@qeng-ho.org> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:13:05 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493fjh3Gqlz44dV X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@qeng-ho.org designates 217.155.128.241 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@qeng-ho.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:217.155.128.240/29]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[qeng-ho.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:13037, ipnet:217.155.0.0/16, country:GB]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.40)[ip: (-7.81), ipnet: 217.155.0.0/16(-3.91), asn: 13037(-0.22), country: GB(-0.07)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:13:13 -0000 On 17/04/2020 16:05, Bob Willcox wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 07:32:22AM -0500, D'Arcy Cain wrote: >> On 2020-04-17 07:05, Bob Willcox wrote: >>> I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that is >>> essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have openoffice >>> installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. >> >> What is the intended purpose. A spreadsheet program is designed to be >> very flexible and allow many different uses. If you have a very >> specific use something else may make more sense and be even smaller if >> that is one of the requirements. >> >> If you do need a spreadsheet anyway, knowing the intended use may >> determine what products you need. Not all programs may have the >> features you need. > > Thanks for your response. > > What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as my intended > use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and their cost and > have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. It's not a spreadsheet or under X and so may be inappropriate for your needs but awk with flat files could do that trivially, and it's in the base system. Not everything needs a GUI. -- Fat Earther: One who believes the world is round but has put on too much weight round the middle. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 15:17:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCD12BD0C4 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:17:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493fq80L1Yz44n1 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:17:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.118.76]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MJV9S-1jemi72DLE-00Jvoa; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:17:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:17:42 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Bob Willcox Cc: "D'Arcy Cain" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? Message-Id: <20200417171742.2e1d9b8b.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:9LGFmS3yF0IFpobty6dDckAmQg52k57iw5+VO8W2yms+8QIBCKy 2KnCEanVpmwVgTaRyhvnTDYrFPENTYp3yoa7Od6YbIqIpIXqoV74OisayOTTH3gbzVnWox+ xS2taSl57HlToF354YswQpJQubBq8Zd5VkRub9rgw8QseLnVN84HaoVzCwv2KPqWj5DAUJX NZA+5PxRmVqWFOun2HaoQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:+rR/gB0tIRk=:jg4nzZzPFC0qyyfNCAaMxO jx7ufux9Pk6IqX7aWyqIBMnKmc85STbpT58Ev+HxNOb394f6CwIAEXWalzBcUZP/HfLIap/on WXfVspY5YTt6K2Z1oHuX/iOdIEZ7445wj86WsRQEtoOZ0DDOusk8y8ZUgKDIH2NO9casIgKrW CvJOw086gh/Kynv/8rh1xc78UDlV9L8aPRK+Db44xfpVvY7GrVU7GTpavrFWRg0q4fV+zHEgn NfHKAb/VCzU6OhLtKNflxQv51LTGDZBYZEBKpqLufRKN4grAszB0yI6NL3unIK1qEDN1BJt6h eOa/KDfh0eyc2C82emtNJGWSk7vX2X5zSXW9ZSsnQ2MGncVbXtfRY/3YQFuZLAugYSxpFv1Ck A5XFamp3f6udkA/YRAkB5NPakDepo3GSMmMbszRclCoyMJ9yotqS7RdVukhF0GfpclMi//jxN EH+rL5uufLNUM8Ehmf4Il10bZc9oXpOOv7YSbOG9Z9ANA7QF9i95dCdXct9zOhFzci0dYP25G 4qc823jZuOsU2sj27F/lB5RKII9/qEV0J+OHprJ8bDPwHIZ+X8nQpriIo/qRGQcrMXNtpbsc/ PM+7elvlo39WAToz7ikDcCVW8lppiRLlskpArJmTrHwTqPyxc4r1vDwqqG6QM1e9+bTjNN7za V7EPRwGrAYnzLgtnvJ/B7HEuaIK3Q1tXj4jiYuHu043J36uBXfLd0Qld4Zb/v9uXJMuNGnLHu f8oN4aSL5MLbpGSspPCRYBvird7n+OTrxxUdVGpVKw0RvurOyzByog7Z7ihIofh0cCq0i9LBa ljTrFJQKDWlqvpG1ZiTzUeKUVCNwh7GD76YprR6Eg46eRSONrhsnkUOK+XsEleosC6DtGUb X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493fq80L1Yz44n1 X-Spamd-Bar: +++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.24) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [5.24 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[76.118.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.72)[0.717,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.997,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[24.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.13)[ip: (-0.22), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.19), asn: 8560(2.09), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:17:57 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:05:51 -0500, Bob Willcox wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 07:32:22AM -0500, D'Arcy Cain wrote: > > On 2020-04-17 07:05, Bob Willcox wrote: > > > I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that is > > > essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have openoffice > > > installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. > > > > What is the intended purpose. A spreadsheet program is designed to be > > very flexible and allow many different uses. If you have a very > > specific use something else may make more sense and be even smaller if > > that is one of the requirements. > > > > If you do need a spreadsheet anyway, knowing the intended use may > > determine what products you need. Not all programs may have the > > features you need. > > Thanks for your response. > > What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as > my intended > use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and their cost and > have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. Yes, Gnumeric can definitely do that. You can install it without the rest of the office suite and just use this program. It doesn't have that much dependencies (Gtk-based). Sidenote: I use awk for the exact same purpose, it's already in the base system, and what you're searchig for is even covered in the EXAMPLES section of "man awk". You can easily get formatted ASCII text, and if you need a PDF, use enscript (adds convenient margins and pagination, if you need that). For a similar purpise where "well designed reports" were required, I wrapped the whole thing in LaTeX, produces PDFs as well. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 15:30:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E392BD73E for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:30:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: from rancor.immure.com (108-84-10-9.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.84.10.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "darth.immure.com", Issuer "darth.immure.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493g5S3L9yz45g9 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:30:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: from rancor.immure.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rancor.immure.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03HFUJdj016551 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:30:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob@rancor.immure.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by rancor.immure.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03HFUJu5016550; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:30:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bob) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:30:19 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: Arthur Chance Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? Message-ID: <20200417152842.GE894@rancor.immure.com> Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> <6c627b31-af61-96f8-bd9a-3010a52483d1@qeng-ho.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6c627b31-af61-96f8-bd9a-3010a52483d1@qeng-ho.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493g5S3L9yz45g9 X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bob@rancor.immure.com has no SPF policy when checking 108.84.10.9) smtp.mailfrom=bob@rancor.immure.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.42 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[bob@immure.com]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.29)[ip: (0.16), ipnet: 108.64.0.0/11(0.08), asn: 7018(1.24), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[immure.com]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.94)[0.941,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.99)[0.994,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[bob@immure.com,bob@rancor.immure.com]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7018, ipnet:108.64.0.0/11, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[bob@immure.com,bob@rancor.immure.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:30:21 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 04:13:05PM +0100, Arthur Chance wrote: > On 17/04/2020 16:05, Bob Willcox wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 07:32:22AM -0500, D'Arcy Cain wrote: > >> On 2020-04-17 07:05, Bob Willcox wrote: > >>> I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that is > >>> essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have openoffice > >>> installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. > >> > >> What is the intended purpose. A spreadsheet program is designed to be > >> very flexible and allow many different uses. If you have a very > >> specific use something else may make more sense and be even smaller if > >> that is one of the requirements. > >> > >> If you do need a spreadsheet anyway, knowing the intended use may > >> determine what products you need. Not all programs may have the > >> features you need. > > > > Thanks for your response. > > > > What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as my intended > > use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and their cost and > > have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. > > It's not a spreadsheet or under X and so may be inappropriate for your > needs but awk with flat files could do that trivially, and it's in the > base system. Not everything needs a GUI. Yeah, I actually had considered that. I've been writing awk progams for years (since 1982) and can see where I could try that approach. Guess I was being lazy and just thinking that maybe there was something out there more like what spreadsheet programs were back in the mid '80s. -- Bob Willcox | It's possible that the whole purpose of your life is to bob@immure.com | serve as a warning to others. Austin, TX | From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 15:51:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B67B2BE39A for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:51:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493gYw0F4kz482J for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:51:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03HFoBVx097655 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:50:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? To: Bob Willcox , Arthur Chance Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> <6c627b31-af61-96f8-bd9a-3010a52483d1@qeng-ho.org> <20200417152842.GE894@rancor.immure.com> From: Tim Daneliuk Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <47f11aa2-d96c-7f56-019c-6aa9f43f5c12@tundraware.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:50:06 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200417152842.GE894@rancor.immure.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:50:12 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 03HFoBVx097655 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, timed out) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493gYw0F4kz482J X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tundra@tundraware.com designates 45.55.60.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tundra@tundraware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.07 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.41)[-0.409,0]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.82)[-0.816,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.59)[ip: (-1.23), ipnet: 45.55.32.0/19(2.98), asn: 14061(1.27), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:51:33 -0000 On 4/17/20 10:30 AM, Bob Willcox wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 04:13:05PM +0100, Arthur Chance wrote: >> On 17/04/2020 16:05, Bob Willcox wrote: >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 07:32:22AM -0500, D'Arcy Cain wrote: >>>> On 2020-04-17 07:05, Bob Willcox wrote: >>>>> I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that is >>>>> essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have openoffice >>>>> installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. >>>> >>>> What is the intended purpose. A spreadsheet program is designed to be >>>> very flexible and allow many different uses. If you have a very >>>> specific use something else may make more sense and be even smaller if >>>> that is one of the requirements. >>>> >>>> If you do need a spreadsheet anyway, knowing the intended use may >>>> determine what products you need. Not all programs may have the >>>> features you need. >>> >>> Thanks for your response. >>> >>> What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as my intended >>> use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and their cost and >>> have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. >> >> It's not a spreadsheet or under X and so may be inappropriate for your >> needs but awk with flat files could do that trivially, and it's in the >> base system. Not everything needs a GUI. > > Yeah, I actually had considered that. I've been writing awk progams for years > (since 1982) and can see where I could try that approach. Guess I was being > lazy and just thinking that maybe there was something out there more like what > spreadsheet programs were back in the mid '80s. > I have to say that, for most of us, the use of things like spreadsheets is pretty lightweight. In that light, I have incrementally been moving to Google Sheets (and Docs). It's cloud based so it runs on everything that has a decent browser. That way, I don't have to cruft up my BSD and Linux systems with business applications that typically are: A) Large with lots of dependencies and B) Often not frequently or well maintained. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 15:56:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88FB2BEAE5 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:56:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carlj@peak.org) Received: from filter06.peak.org (filter06.peak.org [69.59.194.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493ggB63FLz48s4 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:56:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from carlj@peak.org) Received: from zmail-mta01.peak.org ([207.55.16.111]) by filter06.peak.org ({0c47b2c3-829a-4f18-b445-de68be8d048d}) via TCP (outbound) with ESMTPS id 20200417155601983_0000 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:56:01 -0700 X-RC-FROM: X-RC-RCPT: Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmail-mta01.peak.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C69C798131 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmail-mta01.peak.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmail-mta01.peak.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id WsjBtNR9EIAC for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailproxy-lb-03.peak.org (mailproxy-lb-03.peak.org [207.55.17.93]) by zmail-mta01.peak.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DAC98112 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localnet ([127.0.0.1] helo=elm.localnet) by elm.localnet with esmtps (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jPTLO-000DFB-Ic for freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:55:54 -0700 Received: (from carlj@localhost) by elm.localnet (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03HFts84050912; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:55:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from carlj) From: Carl Johnson To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 08:55:53 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> (Bob Willcox's message of "Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:05:51 -0500") Message-ID: <86eesm5com.fsf@elm.localnet> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-MAG-OUTBOUND: peakinternet.redcondor.net@207.55.16/22 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493ggB63FLz48s4 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=peak.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of carlj@peak.org designates 69.59.194.82 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=carlj@peak.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.91 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[peak.org,none]; IP_SCORE(-0.01)[country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[82.194.59.69.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:395796, ipnet:69.59.194.0/24, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:56:08 -0000 Bob Willcox writes: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 07:32:22AM -0500, D'Arcy Cain wrote: >> On 2020-04-17 07:05, Bob Willcox wrote: >> > I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that is >> > essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have openoffice >> > installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. >> >> What is the intended purpose. A spreadsheet program is designed to be >> very flexible and allow many different uses. If you have a very >> specific use something else may make more sense and be even smaller if >> that is one of the requirements. >> >> If you do need a spreadsheet anyway, knowing the intended use may >> determine what products you need. Not all programs may have the >> features you need. > > Thanks for your response. > > What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as my intended > use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and their cost and > have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. I use gnumeric for similar uses and it works very well. I have tried openoffice also, but found it way more than I need or want. -- Carl Johnson carlj@peak.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:06:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED132BEF67 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:06:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pawel@jasiak.xyz) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493gtf2802z49p4 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:06:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pawel@jasiak.xyz) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id z26so2551409ljz.11 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:06:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jasiak-xyz.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-disposition; bh=0XhEUTJUZd3BNTEYJ4LaE3ZTNYYCgWLisbASOmPw+Qk=; b=ELpHbMgq/kBAwUZRgQ2wUkLDR5ogCTRPK5apVTRN2M+QgujdlT3oRHhAAkAvNXiUa+ 6tSS3L1IZ1l6LN2SB0I66HbHbHJVYwnuSym4ylGeNV/6N/3SfU0p8I621C6IWXk/Zsfe CYTZ94LwDd+81sJU9kVeXXliwWuJ92sWWRELBWbEBhIVLHdXjlRJacXP4RAigcBARV5N NraAXxzjXIszotbbT/yVHc1LXm97z9ua7ZVqLRLszVVXfgGKRWwZsWM3cV8dn8HM2KEE 2ozY7o4xV1Ir/teK8hTgd3sK+9HVBhDS8rbKBtmcftGctTtoW1cZWn+0Dfm+JNNSj5WC XnHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version :content-disposition; bh=0XhEUTJUZd3BNTEYJ4LaE3ZTNYYCgWLisbASOmPw+Qk=; b=Ml31A8UMt8qidCVLiB16VGjUkVK8gJDc/Q+W4ljf1/JE0hAtKfK2JZhDYHCj8lH17k EaFY0B9bi0yywCrLYTzUExOH3W9V+fkFvoUDL2TX0qVVxDUltAnhoejec0awbFlbLWFZ r7t2pfnvi6kkpIrZrcQqAw0uZZFm2Kd5VLiZgwDPYa1/GThzqXyHCiu2+sGOWzTEaEgf 3LL/K4Dl9Mb8mF0uKmNV8srj9r7vCdJuer+R5gbPJegEl6W8WVHkYqwaHLL7JMDxBn3N aefva4FDLmylpdDb5lnTK8tIcCiae2PxYNaAyOLtk9leQcBJZ3FA9OeAjPrI/ei2SM9Y FBUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubdUBIWpgh32zIyXSHNgX+S9hOwu2tkP5VbyPc+8y6m4BlBJ+cV DaSuMuBJby4niyggM78OZdQkuLEr+lg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLQgX7RikxEYEurkHnjnnP4f+EcLyJM/VsVNnOGs1Tcti4fiaFjucpLefLqDQqLW+J2m4dO9A== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:a584:: with SMTP id m4mr2613116ljp.194.1587139559400; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmail.com (wireless-nat-78.ip4.greenlan.pl. [185.56.211.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a10sm11959078ljp.16.2020.04.17.09.05.58 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:05:56 +0200 From: =?utf-8?B?UGF3ZcWC?= Jasiak To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Arguments format Message-ID: <20200417160556.GA44862@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="azLHFNyN32YCQGCU" Content-Disposition: inline X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493gtf2802z49p4 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=jasiak-xyz.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ELpHbMgq; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pawel@jasiak.xyz designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pawel@jasiak.xyz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.53 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[jasiak-xyz.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[78.211.56.185.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jasiak.xyz]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[jasiak-xyz.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[c.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993,0]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.43)[ip: (-9.35), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.35), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[78.211.56.185.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:06:03 -0000 --azLHFNyN32YCQGCU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I have three questions. 1. In sys/mips/mips/autoconf.c we have functions static void configure_first(dummy) static void configure(dummy) static void configure_final(dummy) and we are not using argument. We are having those functions also in ricv, arm, arm64, powerpc and x86 and in non of them we are using dummy, so maybe we can just remove it? Or if it is necessary why we don't mark it as __unused like in other functions? 2. Above functions have strange definition for arguments. static void configure(dummy) void *dummy; { ... } Why we are not using static void configure(void *dummy) { ... } like in other places? 3. In sys/mips/mips/octeon_cop2.c we are having struct octeon_cop2_state * octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() { ... } but it's declaration in sys/mips/include/octeon_cop2.h is struct octeon_cop2_state* octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void); Question is if we should change octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() into octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void)? I will be happy to help with creating patches. Thanks! --=20 Pawe=C5=82 Jasiak --azLHFNyN32YCQGCU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEENIqkLxDcCMlLMdi0FzfmQudzVTgFAl6Z0+QACgkQFzfmQudz VThppw/+ObyczsMDZR1w4C2suW3qysvt0oiiVk0tSNvssaa1AAKzoZZBG9wFt4z4 BIdKjdEKQCrUjHvMRM62eJQArfrvyqPrxzZW++D72FeacvBZQzM4wyGcmifKVbip yySvz4H060YSuYNMPqDWr4MOE+7w7VjY+FkDvoKP9p0d1X8kuGRCZktxuzrO/f5e iEvKHhlXYNiwHoSBbUepR/uu7/mBJrYvvJ7R82VPnW6Yow77yFbQzCheDCV5Hkax sMCa1u5aEW6ueXypZ+g6F7zHm6IhJ0mHuPVDFf9cW8VXF2AMzokJe5Tspf2fuFdu TQG/rYJgJtJMF3CKYyCm0TZZq3rH9oOysD5mSKEPEd6uLRYnRf46/53bCtD8O/Ga s8uVs7b984lD+SLMcQ6Qv9yhkxDERi9T0n8nGX8UlGlR8UeJXeijodqEeja85kGk OTWTMboAs87YADmnU/ZRY+m0fTpiHL+2OVr8xbnXIDGWUcIghnYAn4RP8f1HsCUB vJL4p/VIEDNWwmvVLXMBv31mz9roifes+vl43bTla+IzzzH19LwsdWcoDyHhjhrL 6hhzYfGjIFJswfmfI1MObQpwP1DjCEl6zW8nvtCZUg8eTvezgxlf1q3RIB4L/cDz GTwX/ZhgsxiHkZ0gcPM8AyungZPy3GHGbCvgAT7TWxfd0XN19Y0= =H3Ge -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --azLHFNyN32YCQGCU-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:11:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B342BF46A for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:11:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic308-18.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic308-18.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493h1H5fpQz4Bg1 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:11:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: f4QNI0AVM1lJlNnmyYtTXi4wxBj5cXt8znhjtq0khd0bE3jFGpW4rJwQLGQKLrL r4IQwDgrDzxAmpYyBuiJBhWbKnv2Xz5t0DxoLnpbXV8L0e8SS7SfZmW2HtdcfsliNe8EprP4P0IH dEHzin0cfNz.mVWHd9qG9yX_h2tWBYXV1imWgGY0Zq1fQZclVFvVqM.9UGtmw37y7pFu0d37yah. rJjypOERzMTjYhkve_icNuVYJ8WZFkTUXFoiV7Ha7nvRy0_YYk5M4QCQidiROc_ErmVb5tv1COny R85guYYeHhFrT_F5aQErDf3ZJvD6QIPi.g41pXh1kt4dFiULyJ0oc0H5jBehoFvLEngmWv9oYwSP _.j4Hnqw5hKiMYJNTOJzNa0zzRI4NzIale27KRKl.Ng6qSTnqZj46gsIfL.qIGNO72Fm0_umDFD7 tlq1Ez00nfWIzNtzJvntD_izyxdTA4bslezoUzaKnUHGgo_VGaTJffWWiBIN4.0UG0dq5gaOLD24 wL2YuXkQ2Qk5tlIbmz_8T43vgdJRecJUqT1.p.hgON5LbUDo7iwGoPVPoDER07NfHSlHGD8nlR81 3RMlcK8HSJcLdDiUqSvSdu9A4WCgKD9.iWQ74896tqekHhfhDYk.8psdoOCs8t2w_FTaPFwgh0Fn n48CT_yzvBKfhs7iGpCRc.u_O.27i2PvlK3ochSNTkT93O_2RZF3n_Ty2vtefYXskYPaRW_Hi54N 3VB5n2Nteq20QjOrnPin0cBc6stpuFTut3fraa5pDZuMpHB3oJgvYWHf7nyYiezeurEYUpYAHVPR bfeeVYKbYu7wJQXOAf4a8lpgJOnC6sJHPdEmC4UMvKweqFofIdRxZBqYnhomFcBaaWhsvIiOw1ce yKTRzum9zdgz5M0NuDKCZiSWhYFc5iAKhSw.V8SHn6xQj61LvM8M.oZp1a8f5uSWY6sueJuYqRzO pbDS3hiy8UPVtXBU5jlFIAZWMwpKemSEwTzOFbMol_Ycw7ypdcuv2l43NGINAi1J995zmwfA01rg CzVpMDr0Gd2bmPUQW0FITWdcHWDbG7VVQgLevoaEaoUjABnU25J_Wm23g0bl_5TmSU2.YJ6i9Q52 H0fNNt65LN4WIH2UTdjQoCNoCORPHsNCOrzTuSdaMG1qgWN2gOC2evjpLOrKc.4RPWulDpHsXezf v_QjyXaAIO472TfttKP9p.oHJgyI_FqSY6P7LzBiV0Q7PXaUtnyZVjUm2h5sUkoHmRbUg0gL7nAy qifm7Rru7cyaMSLs4lR3J5cbUUe5eLc7_HLYQ4uNt3IE4GG2lb4nbRU0dpON9J7YpFzimvPjV.Dd WOFwQd3a8o8zcKNgYYu5iwBGyY_S1k.QAt.d2Ro8qgYA5KkOhdKksPGgnZ9CRcvHoDR3IfA-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:11:46 +0000 Received: by smtp405.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5bab66ef8a355604c7770f407a30525d; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:11:41 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:11:42 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-ID: <20200417181142.5f7a613b@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493h1H5fpQz4Bg1 X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.80)[-0.798,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.954,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[146.178.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (5.84), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.15), asn: 34010(1.70), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[146.178.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:11:49 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:02:37 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote a bunch of baseless crap. Just an example of GPL'ed software that even is for free as in beer and how the developer still makes a living from it, despite of possible GPL pitfalls: "Ardour Finance Your subscriptions & donations are critical help that make it possible for full-time development of Ardour to continue. Your support is critical and much appreciated. April goal US$8100 (US$97.2k/yr) Goal reached. Thanks so much! Subscribers 4726 US$10969.00/month" - https://discourse.ardour.org/c/blog From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:18:50 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1582BF9ED for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:18:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10002dd4e01.1e4f5515aa87f72d38b81a7cc7bebff5@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493h9P5k6Nz4CG9 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:18:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10002dd4e01.1e4f5515aa87f72d38b81a7cc7bebff5@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587140330; x=1589732330; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=oiRuks6/PMBp94UhkSukRZucHf7jPX74bd+31XnaAv0=; b=SfuWM3slCxAH/VI1xhplcF68zRy+v9qAYOtgHLfS9CE9+6vFyNRyyLTI+8gWpixhkqS535I8l4Ym6UQ1DsILQNMnf7AiF83lyIIEXjntsMLy3aUNbI4nO6F0ungQoa2PG4HT5qqybqRs0K8XUkcyCqEbvsZBlRdDeHIXrSdVl4E= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDJkZDRlMDEuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.h.in.socketlabs.com (r3.h.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.180.13]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:18:43 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:18:42 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jPThQ-000HNB-0G; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:18:40 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:18:39 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Tomasz CEDRO Cc: malaizhichun@tom.com, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-Id: <20200417171839.4538036d626667f168936c7f@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493h9P5k6Nz4CG9 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=SfuWM3sl; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10002dd4e01.1e4f5515aa87f72d38b81a7cc7bebff5@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10002dd4e01.1e4f5515aa87f72d38b81a7cc7bebff5@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.65 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.985,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.24), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.33), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10002dd4e01.1e4f5515aa87f72d38b81a7cc7bebff5@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10002dd4e01.1e4f5515aa87f72d38b81a7cc7bebff5@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[tom.com] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:18:50 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:46:35 +0200 Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > 1. Turn FreeBSD kernel into microkernel. If the OP wants FreeBSD running on a microkernel then surely Darwin is where they should start looking - mostly FreeBSD running on Mach which is a bona-fide message passing microkernel. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:22:04 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C8B2BFB7D for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:22:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10002dd58c0.9c7aa247e71195a3ad17ba65078bd20a@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493hF80tGhz4Cnl for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:22:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10002dd58c0.9c7aa247e71195a3ad17ba65078bd20a@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587140524; x=1589732524; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=rxnLGpdb7vCVIStGlEWWrPqe7Xrfon3Y9glsXOq3aHU=; b=woLGIvjT5SM6+QgcjmpcXFWZPGjiNXymYoyKh1aM0mjPuLs+2ULKzxUBTCGO4vAIiFvW7OZ3F4MeLp1nbHI3oFqKzjStSvBmziNLN1tpPcAZudemB5trZgLfyNQ3NUorEu2f82UCxRIhoumahxpeySGkeEjVqbvG0qKUtT9eEuw= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDJkZDU4YzAuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.191.3]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:22:03 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r3.us-east-1.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:22:02 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jPTke-000HO7-PG; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:22:00 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:22:00 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: Bob Willcox Cc: "D'Arcy Cain" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? Message-Id: <20200417172200.6d6d77f230f7a9655ad850b0@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: "GNU Terry Pratchett" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493hF80tGhz4Cnl X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=woLGIvjT; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10002dd58c0.9c7aa247e71195a3ad17ba65078bd20a@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10002dd58c0.9c7aa247e71195a3ad17ba65078bd20a@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.60 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.95)[-0.948,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20:c]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.24), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.33), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10002dd58c0.9c7aa247e71195a3ad17ba65078bd20a@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10002dd58c0.9c7aa247e71195a3ad17ba65078bd20a@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:22:04 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:05:51 -0500 Bob Willcox wrote: > Thanks for your response. > > What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as my > intended use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and > their cost and have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. I've been using sc for similar purposes for many many years. Text mode, plain text data files and easy enough to remember the bits I need. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:43:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F73A2C083F for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:43:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x12e.google.com (mail-il1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493hjg5K4Wz4FgD for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:43:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id c17so2741094ilk.6 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:43:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ngc+B57DiYRD8+Wt6GnLZOsyiiPduqv/jcaLUt8p1Fo=; b=sOd328RmgsMp7QZX5XVqxmdbpQRxvUyucSlP/+syE0TdHH6gLJE9PXwqOMcAHBvw99 tHdfNMrRl2vc8DddOlw81DimhvO0kzE3illy2wLnFAw5MWX5I9ih6XZu0exQXucxvNJb xckfeqIQw9TOsTnyHs3JX7/PQj5Wy67jBWfKz9KyCoRswfY4ZV3WbYRAaLElKa9xvnD4 2uULHMsykkkGnXWt4NxG+5zCUVD/7dHDseMa2d383OUb/S8x6JngoI3RFC8S2DD/mXpo rQZ0Dq44XOYeeNUaea5ZtWZHNhP3EQI9cCZL2ogfAt/40TLRQxMEsVlR2ka0Z2vCU1aG pegA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ngc+B57DiYRD8+Wt6GnLZOsyiiPduqv/jcaLUt8p1Fo=; b=o4q5efUrKx3Y2d0B+eqRypE6pGZwW0+mhnAilq7uWC+Mvm1jY+SdDK/+Sm7I1mpUiU z7FBak0lbzScI/sQU03f3nxpNF+NOFQfkx9kAhqBWsznnEr1ovgDYC6lJF/G9BrZmlBd rVHHkibys8A8I+0poIjI+k/mSx9gimRala/0rlfpHWC2/MhsUuojrH28gNGnCLqU/igS 19fKiYLip8PTy9paYqdVNJwFzVIr1gisVHhJSjCvXz3LMiI+oRUWc02nQWEyTf/C7//I C9Wo2fO4vwIiddNG+QB4saGTU614fbpR1rA0ZXOCuhFUByz/+rV6bF6YAbVAeHPXnNaq FF7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZEfZSnNLbx9tbtQa/qiwhXX/+r1OOxWhOj23fFtITiYuWrLnk9 CZPy7YAWrt1m5VAwQioEyVkpXaVF1KRCpUVHOrQREnWXP0U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLkAvjPFo4+dlR76KQNmwgLsqp+fAaWK/1EZADul5018qSp5KHpCsMPQkYhkF6ZPx0zUzYOnR1KvDxN4BejfSc= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d181:: with SMTP id z1mr3632571ilz.185.1587141798736; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:43:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <20200417181142.5f7a613b@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200417181142.5f7a613b@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:43:07 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493hjg5K4Wz4FgD X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=sOd328Rm; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::12e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.58), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[e.2.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:43:20 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:12 PM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:02:37 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote a bunch of > baseless crap. > > Just an example of GPL'ed software that even is for free as in beer and > how the developer still makes a living from it, despite of possible GPL > pitfalls: > > "Ardour Finance > > Your subscriptions & donations are critical help that make it possible > for full-time development of Ardour to continue. Your support is > critical and much appreciated. > > April goal US$8100 (US$97.2k/yr) > Goal reached. Thanks so much! > > Subscribers 4726 US$10969.00/month" > If you read GPL carefully it says you can charge for support *ONLY* which specifically forbids selling shrink wrapped (or custom) software. You can of course ask for "optional donations" but are just that *OPTIONAL*. GPL specifically forbids any business model that is shrink wrapped software (or custom). https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#DoesTheGPLAllowMoney (since the 1st link *FORCES* you to release the code then *ANYONE* [even people who didn't make any contribution] can also resell it.... no company in it's right mind would ever bet the company on such an arrangement) https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#DoesTheGPLAllowRequireFee https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#ReleaseUnderGPLAndNF https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#CompanyGPLCostsMoney (See last paragraph) https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#IfLibraryIsGPL (this is the impossible to get around FU clause) https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#SubscriptionFee (Which forbids the example you gave) https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#TwoPartyTivoization https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:47:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2B32C0B45 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:47:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493hpS67Pqz4G0G for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:47:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.118.76]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue107 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MowbA-1iu0Po0eCs-00qOk5; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:47:26 +0200 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:47:25 +0200 From: Polytropon To: =?UTF-8?B?UGF3ZcWC?= Jasiak Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Arguments format Message-Id: <20200417184725.b49109b7.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200417160556.GA44862@gmail.com> References: <20200417160556.GA44862@gmail.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:b+p0zRyrT/enhs3+wrAQz/6Td4mDO9T08gD7TdmOk8pHvSyljhc b/Y1IXNVhHoZIEl61k0VPB13qrTYP/BCl+nuO9lIzmY3HgnzGscGMQpt3M6zDVzqUpn7qDa sGNXqR3Bo589TIghiRtrl6vauTGP8QLBUUIzySqnVNjn8cNfBe6dsaMWQeDti1/jKQ3OrOj DT9NJMwitKOZeBxNR6nDQ== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:h9BpU0HCk70=:5yVtlEMEg+Vyt4edKocDVI YQBk43gE+PrIWwzmPw/Lycs3UP2GYrcrpIAmvRn9GZuCQ4ozc4PNeCvBOQOQ+s7frBwdpafYR J+kWGOo3GkjoMVHsYt7cf0Zfxq2YueKcFUZsQa06RP3wU0NKe4jIVtYSsu1dw5+2plojGXtvc tWD/aCpSsLhYdpCbGLigqJE428FT8M7/ZytavlC5ph9B79xc3S1pPNUuM16HN23YpNU8Y8rU2 IPynufhTriX653+cA3G9hukm8iy1XrLtfTZyny4gz4kNo+uIo0DgItpmaHiSMDxcFT/ohVkZw cVe4Ry5QcnXdDm8XXCJu9KlypVJCQnbLpfF+yApbLXVctz7gv0xRbNgYyTKv1mp+QjOR3dSbY 5xDxld6Gng8ZnlwLYl/5q2Vif2gUJtY7ikwf1zPWbojgjAFf1JHrPBbsdQkE9PALL3/8T3Yp4 7lvxba2Zkn/CNjslRLSL6H85nPNKY9tMF5N8uFkkds4nQw8HJrPVNMjCMBa/kzN9VgBn94yGJ b6oswfCPiGzz65sb9MdPgy4tYPlp48JROBaEc/yuIZiwEuz62poTetMpkWVPNLpOOExM5XbsO snOn4KCYIWphrNb1dduC+ismhCKd0j8Qyk0x7RIays3fy8fJyMMLFPHlSgKsUaKzOKmj57HtZ hvHtOu0uRk1nk4USPU1t4tWz3C0MLIApOfO04MB9igPvgXlBdTX74EujY5ZoICnotooLjwwi2 Z7EM3txVOPP+k2ELqRuOAGDKdr8OlR4IGZ6dWLLymYABZaKiEAV027sRHBHReDQ9JNW7s0K4i d1FwIIxz31mW3oHJO3ootqUL2aHFwkBuNp19hr1ejBWkgeEtDdbjBxvm556hWPedAH7NeUT X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493hpS67Pqz4G0G X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.74) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.41 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[76.118.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.69)[0.694,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.996,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[74.192.72.217.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.32)[ip: (-0.75), ipnet: 217.72.192.0/20(0.26), asn: 8560(2.09), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:47:30 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:05:56 +0200, Paweł Jasiak wrote: > 1. In sys/mips/mips/autoconf.c we have functions > > static void configure_first(dummy) > static void configure(dummy) > static void configure_final(dummy) > > and we are not using argument. We are having those functions also in > ricv, arm, arm64, powerpc and x86 and in non of them we are using dummy, > so maybe we can just remove it? Or if it is necessary why we don't mark > it as __unused like in other functions? I haven't checked any further, but I could imagine that is has to do with the requirement of those functions being able - at least in their declaration - to accept a parameter; the type void * is a "somewhat universal" type. Note that the functions are being mentioned in macros, such as SYSINIT(configure1, SI_SUB_CONFIGURE, SI_ORDER_FIRST, configure_first, NULL); in /usr/src/sys/powerpc/powerpc/autoconf.c which might be the reason why there has to be a dummy parameter... Okay, further investigation. ;-) According to "man 9 SYSINIT", the definition is SYSINIT(uniquifier, enum sysinit_sub_id subsystem, enum sysinit_elem_order order, sysinit_cfunc_t func, const void *ident); and the type sysinit_cfunc_t is defined as typedef void (*sysinit_cfunc_t)(const void *); in /usr/src/sys/sys/kernel.h, so this is the reaon why the configure_first(), configure(), and configure_final() functions have to be "compatible". > 2. Above functions have strange definition for arguments. > > static void > configure(dummy) > void *dummy; > { > ... > } > > Why we are not using > > static void > configure(void *dummy) > { > ... > } > > like in other places? That is not a strange format, it's an older dialect of C, usually called "K&R C", where the definition of a function typically is: return-type function-name(arg1, arg2, arg3, ...) type arg1; type arg2; type arg3; ... { function-body } A convention also is to put the function's return type on an individual line, so the function's name always starts at column 1. See "man 9 style" for details. Still, this style is not being followed consistently: % grep "^configure_first" `find /usr/src/sys -name autoconf.c` /usr/src/sys/x86/x86/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) /usr/src/sys/arm64/arm64/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) /usr/src/sys/arm/arm/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) /usr/src/sys/riscv/riscv/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) /usr/src/sys/sparc64/sparc64/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) /usr/src/sys/powerpc/powerpc/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) /usr/src/sys/mips/mips/autoconf.c:configure_first(dummy) Some use "K&R C" style, others use "ANSI C" style. > 3. In sys/mips/mips/octeon_cop2.c we are having > > struct octeon_cop2_state * > octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() > { > ... > } > but it's declaration in sys/mips/include/octeon_cop2.h is > > struct octeon_cop2_state* octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void); > > Question is if we should change octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() into > octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void)? There is a difference between () and (void) which _might_ be intended; however, prototype and declaration should in fact have the same signature. If the argument is (), the function will accept any parameters, including none ("any parameters list"); if it's (void), the function will refuse to accept any parameters ("emtpy parameter list"), which is explicit for "it doesn't use any parameters". -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:50:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A7162C0D6B for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:50:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from plockton.cent.gla.ac.uk (plockton.cent.gla.ac.uk [130.209.16.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493htV180Jz4GBJ for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:50:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk ([130.209.14.164]) by plockton.cent.gla.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1jPUCd-0005Mb-TF; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:50:55 +0100 Received: from cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) by cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:50:54 +0100 Received: from GBR01-CWL-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.20.51) by cas07.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.164) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:50:54 +0100 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=cdCzZAeAZVpXhRMVc3zvk8vPH6HceuFyzoAvkfUx4T5yYizKdbYBFMd4rtMWRZ7l/Pwilof3YPEjvu5M+SaP1YEOThVeUuZWpQN2+iIWSYmX4bX7M68ud/b61OfevKBcdK+I5v1cVFJqiwmxnNPuq3RJOBPdgp2f4Wac+jdkvrTlsn11xsQAUoxmBb/FmkGHzXtZYnIg0Vg2QzChtkTyaW+vz46Dlv+SMxjyAroSbHhfbNhnFCl5H3laJj/A3XPBqbbD3ncBUxZNDTEZJgTO8jXukEWle8EJ64D+ZVtVdGs+xrBAgwGu8Byx8nGVnDyvuq3rcqAYnCs5qxk8MCCYSA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=2Q+z3QtUUghyxw/kdQKoxTsntS7ZfRVXRQBj4HA1GUQ=; b=WzbU8iS5rR1Ldmsuxsy39V16OeFwt2kWFchyI+87d9im8M0yaxJZC2yAwBPiqarnLN1aHghUYh8vJo3MmgS1I1yfwAlfuTfG8RNWxMKi9b0V7fXG0BK5myjyXpJHHdbgunH8v2BsNNB19eBmvyRvFMGDk1rRvSF7AZIlkGjkHtN8Uw07RRtP0aKKlPLtE/KnwHX0DiaMp9t9oweX7fAQITyZb4i+hkU41zZibXHveHrt8HTdXH0vxkVJ1nDV7gTM67k9wij8pjWqqD35T43LDEA/IHhsikvqC428F0oDPqT0lzhQ9xgE7TW5peiv1kwYF3vZsG2q1C2eEBMaKQsQBg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=glasgow.ac.uk; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=glasgow.ac.uk; dkim=pass header.d=glasgow.ac.uk; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gla.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=2Q+z3QtUUghyxw/kdQKoxTsntS7ZfRVXRQBj4HA1GUQ=; b=QcYTSyfb0O8VuQ09r1wefecehM655szlAq99XlCbF56gVoIBaskUc759yMkzAetHD3qyB7oz6RhSQUBlLU0MIygkNypKp6JaOllTsRj6C1SvZhsRj5J0hAGL8kkKR8pTya3jI8a+g6kg98Jv+CCekb61jFDxEWuP89P9lmDcAUc= Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.144.19) by CWXP265MB0261.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.124.138) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2921.26; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:50:53 +0000 Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd]) by CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2921.027; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:50:53 +0000 From: "Norman Gray" To: Steve O'Hara-Smith CC: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:50:52 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <423845A3-98EA-4F84-92F4-DD1DD26A8DFB@glasgow.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <20200417171839.4538036d626667f168936c7f@sohara.org> References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <20200417171839.4538036d626667f168936c7f@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-ClientProxiedBy: LO2P265CA0086.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:8::26) To CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:401:8::19) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.1.29] (2001:8b0:df5:af53:49eb:74f9:8890:5f79) by LO2P265CA0086.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:8::26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2921.29 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:50:52 +0000 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) X-Originating-IP: [2001:8b0:df5:af53:49eb:74f9:8890:5f79] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 532be6ce-9260-4a66-5ee6-08d7e2ef7d98 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: CWXP265MB0261: X-MS-Exchange-Transport-Forked: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:6108; X-Forefront-PRVS: 0376ECF4DD X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(10009020)(346002)(366004)(136003)(396003)(39860400002)(376002)(86362001)(2906002)(4744005)(5660300002)(66476007)(6916009)(66946007)(966005)(66556008)(478600001)(186003)(16526019)(6486002)(786003)(8936002)(2616005)(81156014)(8676002)(33656002)(316002)(4326008)(53546011)(52116002)(36756003); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; Received-SPF: None (protection.outlook.com: glasgow.ac.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: nxorMSD+eq6oXMlsjjslB8/Vu6ZvgBR+lLw/7OLCwgiF01X2kkXHIWXqCpdrICTNcjOF+zh4IfZbB1AC00i4GWI/3GcXXOuCtxX90K7X7qu/r7nNvEuJbYokbdhkMf104N+hgx24VEzuJ4fMzh5sCWaA9F0Zm6JHitjhFdh2MkmKJOo9jMIGY+6eH3is+7LNEgVB+snGlG8i2c/4XzBWoA== X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 532be6ce-9260-4a66-5ee6-08d7e2ef7d98 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Apr 2020 16:50:53.0971 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 6e725c29-763a-4f50-81f2-2e254f0133c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: HX9Pnpgr0pQvLtn0LDpe+7mrmH7Sk8bJ/IqADbNzOSTDvsCey6dKqLeuJztysYpRNsAkPoiTXYbkSlc9IZTAHpC1fFgNSxgnHc9yD2CTqfo= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CWXP265MB0261 X-OriginatorOrg: glasgow.ac.uk X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493htV180Jz4GBJ X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gla.onmicrosoft.com header.s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com header.b=QcYTSyfb; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk has no SPF policy when checking 130.209.16.75) smtp.mailfrom=Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.98 / 15.00]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[75.16.209.130.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; IP_SCORE(-0.98)[ipnet: 130.209.0.0/16(-4.47), asn: 786(-0.35), country: GB(-0.07)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[glasgow.ac.uk]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[75.16.209.130.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.11.2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:786, ipnet:130.209.0.0/16, country:GB]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[i=1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:50:59 -0000 Steve, hello. On 17 Apr 2020, at 17:18, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > If the OP wants FreeBSD running on a microkernel then surely Darwin > is where they should start looking - mostly FreeBSD running on Mach > which > is a bona-fide message passing microkernel. It's a tangent to this thread, but: can you point to anything which discusses this in more detail? I've long known that Darwin is 'mostly FreeBSD running on Mach', or that it has a lot of FreeBSD's userland, or even that Apple have reportedly contracted folk with FreeBSD kernel knowledge to work on bits of Darwin (or have ported bits of FreeBSD into Darwin, or something like that). I'm curious to know more, but details are tantalisingly hard to find. Best wishes, Norman -- Norman Gray : https://nxg.me.uk SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:51:25 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44C12C0DEA for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:51:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic303-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic303-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.188.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493hv01BrGz4GHF for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:51:23 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: xnix9WsVM1mbAso4KRZ9kuVDIsgeRbod9djQZxkyzThw4Md1CXEd6kOlGAp9256 2ah_uuMzrC3gtd0Qtq2pI2Kvrmhpq7a1sbK20baNTx9Lt5PrA2BzRMZA5n9Z6rlyTB_rvKo_nQv2 DVZumDmAnWbh1iMxF3KcFrws3QJ026SqI3eV__aiPCGYfZDt_0EznQvD3_ItDiPgPYEu8uC9Omqd LoUfQlpDVdKNPTLvmoIWy0hHvNtgwpRShjkAJ8Whg6rJX.fq08cbOwBE3.OZME19wJKdUU4xM0jw _winf2UBpWklXRt7V_8cGYLt0f0zkHPnVQLvqnh01NYHSn1oZtP7wjbY6k7nNd2mkf72dqkyFwp_ KjD_kOPBSpu0rkSEUSovvpkkBlljJww9vqx1tCIDvikohkeMKdJn2Dzmybh917SFF6KXMOEGZt2A NWQwYLdYl.2tH4SzNluAMOhk4VGdTu1SVNvz8l0qhpQF7rGHEB_yHriZ_HxQyl8BDZRs5qwQb2td W5GcVJQXrrmkYRXJcWbUkgVw7pr5P6ZcBXHvhNDfFXGbS3OnoGkRmLNiFyDmRbV5Tbvl67udUw1s WqoVxG0ZnujOuUV4cNJUzov1DFHkgUVgfkeKCFzOMUDj73sL.2XSjYHnb4Y1MEWdBU.QYY8dRJ5d xrSH_Q3rHpuAOfocrUZ63mbWFcu7OE2xvQo0G4tRX0K5kADhIJb9XspClNau_bnCk9GP4ROECe7g 0KaVrZCpDXY15x3ADZSPdhluJ5aeouaB6z338dlqnzshLAC975qN3YtYDsLP9pmfboPN7i8S0UL0 txGRQ.r5ItkddSUO6V4gPQ3DenSoI79TwISEnVWEqLFzwGy39Dw0UHMDkXdZ4VwBmaJS.rNZzHAL DpM0fe0N3priVpXhQVFSdmsovtf4vyqRDcZ6JJkbFaEqap3xHgf.MwUMbKccTEkTWqVylefRzHv_ f4dCxm3J0q9swLx6E6X_GEObzImQKlUoVoLWAgBsTbEF2Esp7HgDuZv_nZkn4loN5hinulXAqZnc MsGVUMSaKO7_H3EhgJtLUNNJIo1o4_GyZm4mas229Fz8W1HSofotpZPn9dltZPHabQvd49wfYmHr ZuYXcDhx_ZF5L56mfbx6p4OWxY7XhF6f3g9woeOM4YT4Osun08uiWeh9iczGlbDul6FmnY2CT3B9 w8jYejRH.QLh4yZx8H7Jx0VIZPi7iDHSpDBWIjQBdEwinvbqDa96X02lk1UZr24FL.GaBwlPvx6Y T3Rrl1TGVk0PU.Zr_PVP2Uo8WTvOqOXwYTbOfjawWW6KfB6fYaCmsJpPaTVeVuAUwei.XiJauTiP Y1Ir1CwTMvHOJDD__DDaLPuuAjUwwE.SCioduqmtGrlR96faU2fas6AGPc3IXVWimt0fSDTroshs Cng_YCUmtaCc- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:51:22 +0000 Received: by smtp401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 3078f3dd7c00c957136390bad5a139eb; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:51:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf1-f172.google.com with SMTP id u65so1326809pfb.4 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:51:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZWEZs2s2k34u/jNIV3YgKUFbsGEdLR51bH+3xdcYJ/xRgG+It/ yLZGMWV2tE4h8AE51keJmHk4UicuTBGuDmAF9bU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJldTenzUqhXHjo1jzyETmzOEKLLbhxwiPIuZessxUTRJWULs01uWAuxbOBer0MyOOsFAEsBnKPA/IgwnpR9zo= X-Received: by 2002:a63:4c1d:: with SMTP id z29mr2058846pga.243.1587142276824; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:51:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:51:00 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493hv01BrGz4GHF X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.59 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.92)[-0.920,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.966,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.42), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[147.188.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[147.188.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:51:25 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 12:02, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > Before getting into detail in the inline comments it is important to note > there is small but very important philosophical difference in the design of > FreeBSD and Linux. FreeBSD follows the core concept of the Hippocratic > Oath: "Do no harm" (aka "if it is not broken don't fix it!") and Linsucks > follows the completely idiotic Facebook mantra of: "Iterate fast and break > things" (aka Only an idiot would use it in a life critical application.) Prepubescent fanboi language that doesn't add much to a technical topic. Translated back into more coherent English, I pretty much like the 1990's "release often, release early" philosophy, which FreeBSD seems to have adopted with its recent policy of offering more frequent releases. -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:53:00 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F40252C11AA for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:52:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.185.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493hwp3zsdz4Glt for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:52:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: .YpGCd4VM1nKtvByqb_gCg_foSWf3QtQI79TyLSjqV_Vjvbqp6FI0.AY5l1pv7k ZZ04x7Z9liQ7NYtNxyca3RI0FjYGJeLlAFpauUUCxEXt.wNTYEeqVNOcwYUdraBOFI2_CbyCsToO kyapyCmVi5HX7.RFpI4NQXXV74A1rQ5yAkfo7JKKXW1Kl_CkHvfn8B6N0UPhl.JT.0PKY2AHN6rF D2Rx0MVxPC3Xy5onk7OZzpDo..QvfNMalHhvr0r1Yl2RBP9CYn_X_v06nB9AnXThTr8WiaFfL7vG bLKcYiIRVDtfUuSuMATICeBgMcDP_XdAVoGSKCuVRLwgaU9c86TDDX6vVJDIqOTsM99wwCDfNZ1z Ab9_pTaj78uT_vlW5ByRJEieewtrysEcWxaTAwRkxadVLVs.LEmozdCynFo8wkeNgz0UPg1Qv57Z xjroMz6w1Ps3uon9kSJqiM2.YuHHV4orjoDMFsznjnuhmlKWVKVgQAdzcuxTNdQfqZ8GLfTYUfu6 zC3WknlhgPGb33Gr9iYyZO.Rad3P.7aqCMWiWYjnW2wnjoTCEmcI4x7Pvyqly4GQLtDGMXGoz3ek m.kyEKA9Mts77aQIomEjjAKCsaKPZ2dPH0nIbetyznbvFudJ5bpwW3ExH458BPfI3Eh0sEKx84Rx zpYd87I2speQvtMQW4ytev35KgKaR_JCC8ybKIak9aSmjSjTumpI7Fu1.b3TLtr0RBX3Y6DdeSf5 rK.oIDxWtU7t.fucffA2oNqVzpPnP14wakLoE.CZ_b9RUM7AukRJ9eEhYBk.UpSOXsbm6G4xPwM1 xy0MjU0DXtnuj.56K8.wd_GpP0foEoFyV9Pd4v5bCzr34yqCUzRSIGhQk29CGo21ZqcYiyZMAWP5 d3fH31KjF0fva8hePpqIweZCJfMeosJj4Rk.X_mdXIj.40h1OCXwF2KhzInsSVRToDbxdiDdq_pC W7Phi5PWKqA8Holgcf5XBcRO_a2Yhm7YT2l0sWJDUunWh3g6De6Vze0u_u.zeTOMyXHasSFzJAUE ZZbSibaIAxLxHkLbAqAMVI0Ob1eTNMMZJFuMEE1S_vBlZPBonJIfBQH8qPRpj.fqki6cmAqd_lZd nI.fki1Cw_jYG5s7pmUR7tgc3BIocQpfmhiXJM_uvt0mAJc5_8ilorGYCfCfjzzDJr5b9xNcVzxT 2rCe_hETXuL75bgaXmbZBaTkgP98yOcOmpimSrqVVWsHKMr1NTP1x_HJhX7.PNMw9MAuxFocsuYs TxksD3sXBENIswlQGGpkFd4rMTa8KgZFZNdPOw7cz8k44YCJZ_UwLSJpMSM8gB9c1qC.eFmbiPeB rgRipjlvdg1yvzcfILCggMnRcyhYQslSMfZ.CGyZsZHdVCjmd9P0iR6S4bi6NoB76Djv_6tRiXqo I9extHfUXT419blgDfjjEQrM- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:52:57 +0000 Received: by smtp417.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 684070916d8bf0350bf4db79a964c6d2; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:52:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f181.google.com with SMTP id d24so1169193pll.8 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:52:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ1IiLShuRPmRlA1gY2bbF7wCkmrWACiOTje3SXpyH9iTBk4jSG Q3664XeVlCAm8lJzSjBAsVywMco+/ey/wLHkNAE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLmHLmFQ/2TdPoptNnsQwn4YFzrOsWAM9ZqZ1HDf5SG7+IgJ83UdfmTp9St+KUwilvBfXV/bD42G1cplNqa9pE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4c81:: with SMTP id my1mr5634976pjb.30.1587142375121; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:52:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> In-Reply-To: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:52:38 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? To: questions list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493hwp3zsdz4Glt X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.36 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.79)[-0.794,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.87)[-0.866,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.73), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[147.185.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[147.185.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:53:00 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 13:05, Bob Willcox wrote: > > I would like to find a spreadsheet that I can run on FreeBSD in X that is > essentially standalone and drag with it tons of other stuff. I have openoffice > installed but it seems way over the top for my intended purpose. It's as simple as: % pkg search gnumeric gnumeric-1.12.46 GNOME spreadsheet program -- Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 16:53:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029C92C11B2 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:53:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from 2.mo178.mail-out.ovh.net (2.mo178.mail-out.ovh.net [46.105.39.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493hwr0Nwnz4Glv for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:52:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 20.100@defert.com) Received: from player711.ha.ovh.net (unknown [10.108.54.59]) by mo178.mail-out.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E01E9AF55 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:52:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from defert.com (ip-146-0-189-119.dyn.luxfibre.pt.lu [146.0.189.119]) (Authenticated sender: 20.100@defert.com) by player711.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9E6B0115E6B5D for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:52:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: From: Vincent DEFERT <20.100@defert.com> Message-ID: <241ea254-0e4d-9710-845e-a8228f20b3fd@defert.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:52:49 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: fr X-Ovh-Tracer-Id: 16062088074188687364 X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrfeejgddutdeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuqfggjfdpvefjgfevmfevgfenuceurghilhhouhhtmecuhedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtjeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeggihhntggvnhhtucffgffhgfftvfcuoedvtddruddttdesuggvfhgvrhhtrdgtohhmqeenucfkpheptddrtddrtddrtddpudegiedrtddrudekledrudduleenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhhouggvpehsmhhtphdqohhuthdphhgvlhhopehplhgrhigvrhejuddurdhhrgdrohhvhhdrnhgvthdpihhnvghtpedtrddtrddtrddtpdhmrghilhhfrhhomhepvddtrddutddtseguvghfvghrthdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehfrhgvvggsshguqdhquhgvshhtihhonhhssehfrhgvvggsshgurdhorhhg X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493hwr0Nwnz4Glv X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=defert.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 20.100@defert.com designates 46.105.39.61 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=20.100@defert.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.95 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:mail-out.ovh.net]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.99)[-0.994,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[defert.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[61.39.105.46.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.82)[ipnet: 46.105.0.0/16(2.09), asn: 16276(2.02), country: FR(0.00)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16276, ipnet:46.105.0.0/16, country:FR]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 16:53:01 -0000 It's Spring, trolls bloom ! ;) This one has got some success, but now, it's time to enjoy our week-end. :) From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 17:04:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44BCF2C1D08 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:04:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493j9k4GZwz4J0b for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:04:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id w1so3040153iot.7 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:04:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=a4dB81Ko752i8mVOOzgokSzrNag85OcKMKdrF+v3/zU=; b=R9+g/Ji0GRUydI49LDNj+rWoTQkwQJO+qoQMPzeRkrrfz/jJIK+K5/XUEsnM8evzN1 oAyBIKGMB0d9wdVv50Ctz/s7FVfPeGYe42Qi3XJoFIuRuPIPyC/2pfDYiGgHRpy/XD5C Dv1NKNLbGtesIFkj31IZumt7uB61X1V/SIb3bL8/u49EGkxhEqkstVEAVBXBT6XTfARx itjQFMcMaaVQUlodVyFVhVxY0LP+Re6vKTocGdIUSrwBH5zaKWgmvaEQ/KHSiteqKBR0 D/5NzZfVcUgcGym4I8go13QC8fMDKvwvMxXoPTaxhyJZ0hlDehv8NCYiV2QOlh7/3sHk cvog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=a4dB81Ko752i8mVOOzgokSzrNag85OcKMKdrF+v3/zU=; b=OWdEzPIWzV9BdVlv41zORLOIHG6mYVt5CdnLFVwR08UqyNwyNxf25Ftp3Ses/PKX9K OTHrJI3J/pVkMQjMGOYmqg486c5/Zw7pLeXXGm4HEHhBf7mMuxdmLN5y6ExZeBSq7PGu 2vNHKEE3LDCCU9TOSW9peYUyXcbPbpZWiJhK+NVdg/bg/MLFMJUTEjF6Sf5yBmT2NMtZ YAPFRfjy2xFNF3xdlGUgXfB6dWjd7nK/ckBP31zGPzuExvA6ilXzKdwSER1CblxrZgoj njkzyTwCj6qRp0J/1xAMhNX482Pv3VQ1IJx2Zdro1rbQDJy5lXdlulII+JZD2rr9eIoP Xxjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubH0ewe82CAUyiLxUvAUcO1EEnpcX+VseUQ+Jd/P3OQJ872UsGU 0q/nLQYcXizSOVOFWynLwThYIyTVm0dzsCaqkOFMXM1J X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKLHZdgvutT1sVtn/7wNxt74WxX2nDyqxs3KPBj4VHJRXgi6UtQwDUVvSRp719txOqG6H2OC7v4NMNY3Nl8ECA= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:fc0d:: with SMTP id r13mr3944036ioh.89.1587143049493; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:04:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:03:58 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Ottavio Caruso Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493j9k4GZwz4J0b X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=R9+g/Ji0; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.63), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[a.2.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:04:11 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:51 PM Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 12:02, Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > > Before getting into detail in the inline comments it is important to note > > there is small but very important philosophical difference in the design > of > > FreeBSD and Linux. FreeBSD follows the core concept of the Hippocratic > > Oath: "Do no harm" (aka "if it is not broken don't fix it!") and Linsucks > > follows the completely idiotic Facebook mantra of: "Iterate fast and > break > > things" (aka Only an idiot would use it in a life critical application.) > > Prepubescent fanboi language that doesn't add much to a technical topic. > Your response shows you completely misread the intent and meaning of my comments. Also insulting people is likely even less productive then me quoting some well known cliches. > Translated back into more coherent English, I pretty much like the > 1990's "release often, release early" philosophy, which FreeBSD seems > to have adopted with its recent policy of offering more frequent > releases. > I am all in favor of frequent releases as long they are not broken ones (the base system does well here the ports collection not so well). I do daily updates of my installed ports and usually do at least a test install of the first -BETA of every new version (unless it fundamentally breaks something I even switch over to it for my desktop, but wait for -RELEASE before doing it on production servers). Now that being said as I said in the message that you are replying to (and so kindly took out of context) due to my application for production servers the worst possible thing that an OS can do is something that is potentially harmful and FreeBSD is one the best behaved in this regard where is linsucks is by far the worst offender in this area. > > -- > Ottavio Caruso > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 17:31:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCD0D2C25F9 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:31:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic313-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic313-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.188]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493jmw0LKTz4KQQ for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:31:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: rPr0ee8VM1mUyIvkXqyOo.N6FO6dgiAHL24NYx.Ju6iCpX.hyAnido49cq9Qr4h .fFRalRPBk2Z7zvCCBK_B1473YjCKp8v9G6KYOHNqAIUUuTawFp3ZGBHErf_QIISWFOFUlwXveeB AAzXXY2H6L1I3hoN.azVqsF2Pp5kMHHP._rqc.73QZyn97rKmPHv0y4S_84v0Mveowm5oFu35usB JvkUqWLRolGyv_F0LDWs3TUb5DATdW3QzRQIko9PaluRbmZvoHzTt7UQ5.3_YKvYHTrgE68sJ4i8 yw8T9.2dK6gC0xKWW92vdyGJMWyu0n5M4TS0zipbWOlaxRQYvJRkezHso.EnKdLPYGbgh_h2j2WI UHI7MObpV4Ju2Bmg.r6O5_BERNdRAtgT99td.YO1tVjv8ACpHY5F_lNPgau7Kn5aJ67R4_ImSFt7 Q8j28F0JHGs4od7bPhuXbRUogNSRf8EThmJ8IJKdq5FicsimfB50cK1nimbn8GR5KgHBahpvQB3g 0pPTnA8gFrJnG15P1GYh7n73msN0e1PpLmiiNbQrwLhzYFCV6yhCk9JBPG410C4t4HpBRkjJ8o0y kOI7V6s7qRLnrSQzxBCaoooEhdBSUkvA52uzYTPYvmgsuHXlIqaDq9zEkk0i3oj9zwZZMs4YQNyp 71mTsFNXKRJ9_7e44IMKhL1NAXv9lIWEhYNu5KzlE8DXHOkkx0HvK5QdXjYd3Sn_NIPbPpfkF.Gv onjIV6aP0ZoJkWKQC09NL_51gY5Yv4YIoB9euBsp0.7N45tQW6QSyla.SHBRFtQz_OkwE_68P0bh 8vQUZEw_GLxnxu6Sa0ndfhiQzWpSUb1R45h5DWV4rv93xwkAQauB.2QXVErHcRoC6pkPY7JfaM7H qkXpgLbQ_HFaPQffenNyfLxJLcFe633gRgfx7CYadpSpJmkyBsKFTWEcrC4uarYw.HTUbs.7Vgvr 6t3iyvwwbTTMA6XeWMOiLfLnQwYz_4SaY2zGUWYHC26x88CBeISB4oeK_U9DoeFaSr1ImzIrt0ie tBOhJSQQGV4Yla30qZ6rq6WOMOcfVVqKdUOUYje20S7WTh8_7.9i_6ANFKjH9mOTBz3EHbdMx_eR _.oEF0tPpjDzr_jaHaXb0JCHiDQpXrEtjVwU1yEQrBgVeAxQjHv1p4nNCyeM3lk3XxCm67kv3X6D dER.w_EHqOgkwbohzFMrDxfl2A2tVVbkW31lNNreXPZLhR4Mvm35nMewQf92YBFhEPS0kTSrUYuY zQ6QhHNDLS9Gm9rv4bOErwnjVdrTLqyU.7ICMNA6Sgm2LqEKRF2ZspYtYzj93a7Gr8thZcLwmA7V g0nZqSezA7vFYk2NxM78u3YFEbbFaPIbvolsh8Ltns7BMiczqZ3xdbaqOMDfW.u1x4OlcuElRj8u tMMwa9boB5ts- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:31:09 +0000 Received: by smtp403.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID cc204d330564cd4b3dbb7263c95df635; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:31:05 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:31:05 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-ID: <20200417193105.0ec80c89@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <20200417181142.5f7a613b@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493jmw0LKTz4KQQ X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.79)[-0.794,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.95)[-0.952,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[188.179.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (4.15), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.15), asn: 34010(1.69), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[188.179.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:31:13 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:43:07 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#SubscriptionFee (Which >forbids the example you gave) This is utter nonsense. It says: "Can I use GPLed software on a device that will stop operating if customers do not continue paying a subscription fee? No. In this scenario, the requirement to keep paying a fee limits the user's ability to run the program. This is an additional requirement on top of the GPL, and the license prohibits it." Ardour (the software example I gave) does not stop working, if a customer stops paying the Ardour subscription. The GPL probably contains several pitfalls, but IMO this isn't one of them. It's possible to make a living from GPL'ed software and even to use GPL'ed software and a Linux kernel "in a life critical application", while not being an "idiot". It's probably a good idea to put some effort in development and maintenance of "life critical" software and hardware, what ever license applies, what ever operating system and hardware is used. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 17:57:08 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8112C2F9A for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:57:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493kLq0CHsz4LyG for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:57:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id i3so3208891ioo.13 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:57:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=87MEYbiUBv34Uu44BO6CoeXnSCRLmA5TbykT2lrfI8Y=; b=hchnfgWXzYzykSe8MS/idP1ArTvF7IvVYYVIFUKnAhwNPNi7ReZIc8SB/OCLfsomLB CgZ+ggztlzEmiuREJRZrKgwhgjnEKOhk6wMLwA1PbcQHfjXyi1u8fIMmCdlSGKKKTTBR FiP5+2maaoZisfH4+nW9YOwnhZ5CzGB2KZjEXKXCvTBOMJxFlR8rtXoym4EmtdWdC48l 2Uh/sgRaU+FkW6qvmgPSsRBo5U7c/e2fkIGiTaRb6F16novwyAAgPjWKrw9oplsRFMFy uRaFPL2cTkaz+6CY5tw+OqdNAv6cWKZW6PxYCkMWdIxNV5Y1yyP3u5xh4o6u+Z95ncQp Shmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=87MEYbiUBv34Uu44BO6CoeXnSCRLmA5TbykT2lrfI8Y=; b=pjqIBTBcqQDE64tM9vrIY7KsnTLbRQb43XGOEy7wzGbT+nBJXDtamL7KuabbKV9qSJ I9woVKCmmNyMtOa8FxFNLP2uoolFPrxxhxDOqY56ggFYPKmMDa9Gvr9CgT9pvKOhvMXB lAiVTcp4zPO1upwHXKwv6SBf+J4k2qXJM/eu5bhXy5QozkZV/edMeAnyUP4isIg5C3fa TLpWgW8greQIZet+/+HWTb1FQjDxV+rJVV0p/eHU0bytnQFa0CcAzleakPdhm9cWXfOo ircwC30q8WqHqeWqFj5SXgBs1in1r2oh+OguLAvDljDLswHP+KF3jy7lwiBB3HO+BMya y2rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaAV0uAUIjXg/IURmsB6vom8VZQj7i8cdUa07uUsgvZOWTL75WT r0QSRbVELthq96e0hzN0m4GRJh0GxT99TKojCog= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLmFulF+/VlsawALp7U/nzd6N7o210HKOzJYT/gZFrFe7JhQl/17ZV4hxYMtm+Lk1DUuPO8NAKa6ULKjkEI8rM= X-Received: by 2002:a02:ac1:: with SMTP id 184mr4521073jaw.138.1587146225663; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:57:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <20200417181142.5f7a613b@archlinux> <20200417193105.0ec80c89@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200417193105.0ec80c89@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:56:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493kLq0CHsz4LyG X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=hchnfgWX; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[13]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-6.84), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[d.2.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:57:08 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 1:31 PM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:43:07 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#SubscriptionFee (Which > >forbids the example you gave) > > This is utter nonsense. It says: > > "Can I use GPLed software on a device that will stop operating if > customers do not continue paying a subscription fee? > > No. In this scenario, the requirement to keep paying a fee limits the > user's ability to run the program. This is an additional requirement on > top of the GPL, and the license prohibits it." > > Ardour (the software example I gave) does not stop working, if a > customer stops paying the Ardour subscription. > There wording on their site sure makes it sound like you need to pay for a subscription (you need to read it with a very fine toughed comb to see that it doesn't.... which proves once again anyone who attempts to make a living with GPL stuff has to do so with some very sketchy and misleading wording).... From https://community.ardour.org/about_subscriptions: Why Subscriptions? It is much easier to manage the revenue flow from people who decide to pay to support the development Ardour if it arrives in a somewhat steady stream rather than big bumps when we release new versions. One-time payments for downloads and one-time donations are still welcome ways to support Ardour development, of course. ... I can't/won't subscribe but I want to pay and get updates Pay at least US$45 for a particular version and you'll get all updates to that version and the next next major version without paying again. For example, pay this much or more for version 4.0, and you will get 4.1, 4.2 etc and 5.0 for without us asking you to pay again. [To the causal reader that certainly looks like it "requires" money. Only someone who is already familar with GPL would be equipped to not read it that way. This is the very "morally questionable" behavior FSF was founded to avoid] > The GPL probably contains several pitfalls, but IMO this isn't one of > them. > > It's possible to make a living from GPL'ed software and even to use > GPL'ed software and a Linux kernel "in a life critical application", > while not being an "idiot". The comment about life critical was about the stability of linsucks not it's license. And of course it is possible to make a living from being a bottom feeding piranha just ask Red Hat who takes work from other people does very little creative work (in some cases none) and then charges for it. Mean while the original authors gave up any claim to being to make a living from it when they made if GPL (at least under BSD they can charge for the parts that not open source as long they give credit for the open source parts). If you want more detail on this see the interview I did in BSDMag (Dec. 2016) where I explain in a lot better detail (and clearer terms then here) why GPL is not compatible with mere mortal developers who do not work for governments, universities or big tech. Also you might want to check the ports maintainer list and the license on the site I list in my signature before you accuse me of taking and not giving back. My general rule is any general purpose and/or library code I do that is not custom made for a specific client is open source under the BSD license. The reason for BSD and not GPL is so I am not forced to reveal the source code of the custom work to anyone but the client (most of my clients would fire me instantly if I ever did). > It's probably a good idea to put some > effort in development and maintenance of "life critical" software and > hardware, what ever license applies, what ever operating system and > hardware is used. > See above (it is a 100% custom coded system). _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 18:03:15 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6EBB2C329B for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:03:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic307-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic307-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.190.32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493kTt6QYcz4MVM for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:03:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: zlrGiJMVM1lEELDBcdNp0ab3GQQlbn_mtTlK7hBcUG5CM7GWHXsFDG7NxmcwgMF DyYULwJMCYN5I6Qgci.hIQSUjHi6y6427.KZ.NqI5z76UbuUuQVi1j1coYD4.ESQY8JnwUble0yB Q0kqBD4gelpX3l1rUaJkz4wo9P5SmYazVkyBF.i_AYPEIWsiWmGdmsMNR3PJfpL_Mhq.DQhwI44Z 0f7ZMhI6zkjJWCGn7mfAmDdInXzu.O_GXiHrwBj2bgTEFvAy_rVGxnqmjlsQB_WdXpvoqOcpM7bl 5PZcshCpeQevsGxCdVd8x381u6rB7.B5ItasrfgvQwRHZuWAHRLpVdUH2zgZqIuX17.sDjTD1oKi Y7YL5DzVf94gOuLzq_ie2Vf5Ikpoppw3zX4mQXJWf5qshu_Sti3oP_qNLpgmgF4EQbjL7UbbqZzy b8HAkIid9M2vOIcc0nMOwsfvustVMuWjT6vk3p68zRbFCKseL2IRm.LzerWixnomJ7M9GhXZoVm9 WduzWJd9qnKjvzedMe8vW12Z.CG0cyqt_EubEmdG1FfwuT3sk8tzn1ja8Yi93Au5s6.Dxu72kZtb XbC9veVdZkZGq_oNbtVE8U30Hu5Jsin.VW3xYa3H2ttQDzvCw.Yq.sgXneY5NB.x_OUFod3UXQmW 2rBrzdK5ETrEt.xWWKzjjB.m1Q4C6tGOKlcq3ImoN_TtWggsTdwCJxeW4x0pDZvDklxjWKfx4IW. mFI.HWmxDiWF6jhwCRMkK6wqY0NQPV7XXKndlKNUiGPVhFm616NsgqEU9WYHoc8z8BGhWMlK.2D2 mp4SfAFQQNfBMwlrsDIfp2FtQoy4yhng89FhAktefQlkqml6KO.UnYfOHuPF8inj4V4oAgM8x_v5 9HXvnLCRC.SKqcVyA5ddxTtvvT617gkvlYPSZSylXemZuI4HjiqWgJnVRGlEiqLXwhS_yvysAdCL m9SiA93mvBUTaXvDQi0mz4O9NhyTbRgT7P8eP1B04tmXNJ11WTxd6abeH0lzmdiXNok46Ggg6EWI kQVLkr7SlJ1jgSRFQq7qVPAOuNR2qUOsW_MN0_G3ZPpN5guvEG6u3BrXmzdE1ssTTxtMS8Kn.nFq qh7XAgg4Z9yrDlol6B2TX49X43XFGeAP12mWZYC6kAEL9ovLk4Giihqh3HobMQax0cF.ORCcpZ7X yKHaC3cMWJKh.257yH01CsSNga3W_nz22J34q2SB.qclHEoty4CorYEV7ZvZTkZCboTAucULdCcd H6ynVp9menY4FDIjBJQf.kcsrPKfSOQD5s.I.5RDODrxlTVvSoWw4EVhThBlx7LBUt6pF3uWO_6Y _pMsVMjGsk09KpjzMh1_y3mQ.PdwUs4oWT2EIcxFyiska2XRSxl0- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:03:12 +0000 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:02:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Ottavio Caruso , Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Message-ID: <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:75.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/75.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493kTt6QYcz4MVM X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.62 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[15]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.81)[0.813,0]; MANY_INVISIBLE_PARTS(1.00)[10]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.81)[0.805,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[32.190.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.75), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[32.190.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:03:15 -0000 I'm a system architect/Sr System Administrator, comp sci degree, 30 years = experience, etc. I have to make a living.=C2=A0 I do so with RH/CentOS etc. Honestly, if people truly understood the difference between BSD and Linux (= full OS vs kernel) and all the nuances as well as the philosophy, I truly b= elieve that there would be a large migration to FreeBSD.=C2=A0 Most of the = largest and most successful companies in their respective fields use it.=C2= =A0 (Apple, Netflix, NetApp, etc) Heck, even Linus said if it wasn't for the lawsuit between BSD and AT&T in = the early '90s, he would not have found it necessary to create Linux (based= on source code COPIED from a Minix book) circa 1994.=C2=A0 (BSD traces bac= k to 20 years earlier - dinosaur age in technology of 1974) When I look at what has been done in the Linux world in the last five years= .... (microprocesses, kubernetes/containers, etc) it is a REINVENTION of th= ings that existed back in mid-90s (!!!) with FreeBSD jails and Solaris zone= s. Yes, the Linux community re-invents things... A LOT.=C2=A0 When they don't = re-invent and try something new (like systemd), it's nothing short of a mes= s.=C2=A0 It seems more of implementing things of 'I have this cool new idea= .=C2=A0 Let's implement it' versus BSD approach of starting with 'Should we= implement it?'=C2=A0 When there's a new release of the Linux kernel it's, = typically, a mess.=C2=A0 It goes through a zillion patches in 6 months main= ly about security and various holes.=C2=A0 It's really scary how much it mi= mics a Windows release. Freebsd Freebsd : CVE security vulnerabilities, versions and detailed repor= ts |=20 |=20 |=20 | | | | | |=20 | |=20 Freebsd Freebsd : CVE security vulnerabilities, versions and detailed re... Freebsd Freebsd security vulnerabilities, exploits, metasploit modules, vul= nerability statistics and list of ver... | | | Linux Linux Kernel : CVE security vulnerabilities, versions and detailed re= ports |=20 |=20 |=20 | | | | | |=20 | |=20 Linux Linux Kernel : CVE security vulnerabilities, versions and detailed... Linux Linux Kernel security vulnerabilities, exploits, metasploit modules, = vulnerability statistics and list of ... | | | Now, the two links above are just about the SECURITY vulnerabilities introd= uced annually by the COMPLETE OS known as FreeBSD (including it's kernel an= d userland) versus the KERNEL of Linux (this does NOT include the GNU userl= and which is a SEPARATE list of vulnerabilities - a complete GNU/Linux syst= em is substantially higher) More comparison? Microsoft : Products and vulnerabilities |=20 |=20 |=20 | | | | | |=20 | |=20 Microsoft : Products and vulnerabilities Microsoft: List of all products, security vulnerabilities of products, cvss= score reports, detailed graphical re... | | | Also, when viewing the CVE details site, please remember that OSX is NOT Fr= eeBSD.=C2=A0 When you're looking at OSX, you are also looking at a hybrid k= ernel, mostly FreeBSD userland and... their GUI <-- a lot of the vulnerabil= ities are found here. FreeBSD?=C2=A0 Heck, I'll take an x.0-RELEASE and put it in production with= out questioning whether it works or not.=C2=A0 I wait at least 6 months bef= ore rolling out a new Linux kernel/GNU OS. Paul On Friday, April 17, 2020, 1:04:21 PM EDT, Aryeh Friedman wrote: =20 =20 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:51 PM Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 12:02, Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > > Before getting into detail in the inline comments it is important to no= te > > there is small but very important philosophical difference in the desig= n > of > > FreeBSD and Linux.=C2=A0 FreeBSD follows the core concept of the Hippoc= ratic > > Oath: "Do no harm" (aka "if it is not broken don't fix it!") and Linsuc= ks > > follows the completely idiotic Facebook mantra of: "Iterate fast and > break > > things" (aka Only an idiot would use it in a life critical application.= ) > > Prepubescent fanboi language that doesn't add much to a technical topic. > Your response shows you completely misread the intent and meaning of my comments.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also insulting people is likely even less productive= then me quoting some well known cliches. > Translated back into more coherent English, I pretty much like the > 1990's "release often, release early" philosophy, which FreeBSD seems > to have adopted with its recent policy of offering more frequent > releases. > I am all in favor of frequent releases as long they are not broken ones (the base system does well here the ports collection not so well).=C2=A0 I = do daily updates of my installed ports and usually do at least a test install of the first -BETA of every new version (unless it fundamentally breaks something I even switch over to it for my desktop, but wait for -RELEASE before doing it on production servers). Now that being said as I said in the message that you are replying to (and so kindly took out of context) due to my application for production servers the worst possible thing that an OS can do is something that is potentially harmful and FreeBSD is one the best behaved in this regard where is linsucks is by far the worst offender in this area. > > -- > Ottavio Caruso > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 18:06:29 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FF32C3423 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:06:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic305-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.185.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493kYc4Lhlz4MjJ for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:06:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: 6xUwy4oVM1ny2kOb55YLC4Hwpq0qc_0wPRBMoG3Nh18UzdUbVg4LyY3MhgD7lwM BabgPJN4xTQspYmNo2mHfPZN4x9i1saVOzULb19hpav233o6Ur9wzvEgArOXgq949w6a5B71NDjJ g4vZiPinit7GFjToBlfT62y3ruXEezeuJrdD.eVwa8iun_IIChSs1EZ5VMu7uRzZ6kDWmit1SLmY 8FQQinapOGITk64b2u9lLJxbkzvajtI6hMSN9GrT_I.po_ZdCYVZiQ3xloizQhXX4vva6VX.fGai E2mptAq0WdtBk4PyQtmXnsFR_foIoDVJ8fph9dFy8lYKSZDMFteHcZ2ev8BYbSnVYX8hI0Hd47L4 buFEwlIK4UjAybOaM0YbUs1M5zfssI7jH9Yx5QXzf.nZdOOyPNrrINE2M322rs080fYr.90lXgrj SDjqPlDdI937bUK2SSStlGfKafYlhK_K5Q8MnptwPP.kSvZvPRpy5gIw6Inxs5MC15bnRSYh47Yc bpEbhrAZcoRmmho8lldirAQOYxuGkYI3eG18RIMIDZc_whmMjs0aRt8psNqWC7PMR1rGBIJnv2i. hdI4ACl5CEcFYDt0QfCurS7u5O6.hL3D_5rInmm5l8TgKolLkrOhkLE.j9cJ9v9XjuTftFYfe6JV CFCyED7JU_Ectn3_Mq.DhXovMgobAezIJiUFanud.ZUNbUA5WCkLuCto._MHKlnxANO6WYDaoxh6 8MN.vFzaiBOyWsH6xTsEa99ceB8q9ubwTbo8x9RMZXv1nbGW6sy.sf76CdPhHI_.Oh_qF5xC2Cp0 t4BqBD4_7ksP2cPzpSNBE2bnO8DTdiWfooUugPgc3295sWXpoFHt96QRliyeblB_6Q2BB84LD0KS yhDUbULGKkIQe.1HilIgrXEFgeZzSKKsGV_aYzc9gHINpfkyKCaA_KBBUAu7OZAMlWY.STervIMC .6P0Q1yTIgmQldTbXDD8BOl8cJcMHdzVyoMZJXT0zyjSfycwBr9eXHlUchTAdf0n6Hr5FK7aC6wx z7Lm7AY5.nK8ns19zJ9cPvUkPWI5QddLnjoJrxl54XrS3ixklQYvvDyzgeB5OxenMMH5qTiQFgrB Y2s8MXqiuMPp5TabRsNOtNIO6SuLofdgtwLzPXci8PA5A5._u5w9dkV8NMm1.HVF1KqORV3vSPSv 3zZKRf.G_tcvYRZ3UPGuF1aoNc2i.5cshz7ZoSA6EN9P.PEE8a_E7dEdy37y_6W4YEyDhFBjNHmM 0aXQ5hWb8U0VJQQrIWd9EjxZE9y5Y8mWAqpseR659qSsl9udAzupi_sOgL.cUdPVbeksdeXSSpoK DA_G_dVjtEIxGI0M5BgRUNKY92oFvKhYmQYYiItGf83QjRw6oOyTh_ZJj6rV3sw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:06:27 +0000 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:06:26 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: Ottavio Caruso , Aryeh Friedman Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List Message-ID: <800698741.2297108.1587146786489@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:75.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/75.0 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493kYc4Lhlz4MjJ X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.91 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.93)[-0.928,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.984,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[147.185.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.69), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[147.185.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:06:29 -0000 *sigh*.... looks like the links to=C2=A0www dot cvedetails dot com got rem= oved...=20 Paul On Friday, April 17, 2020, 2:03:23 PM EDT, Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-q= uestions wrote: =20 =20 I'm a system architect/Sr System Administrator, comp sci degree, 30 years= experience, etc. I have to make a living.=C2=A0 I do so with RH/CentOS etc. Honestly, if people truly understood the difference between BSD and Linux (= full OS vs kernel) and all the nuances as well as the philosophy, I truly b= elieve that there would be a large migration to FreeBSD.=C2=A0 Most of the = largest and most successful companies in their respective fields use it.=C2= =A0 (Apple, Netflix, NetApp, etc) Heck, even Linus said if it wasn't for the lawsuit between BSD and AT&T in = the early '90s, he would not have found it necessary to create Linux (based= on source code COPIED from a Minix book) circa 1994.=C2=A0 (BSD traces bac= k to 20 years earlier - dinosaur age in technology of 1974) When I look at what has been done in the Linux world in the last five years= .... (microprocesses, kubernetes/containers, etc) it is a REINVENTION of th= ings that existed back in mid-90s (!!!) with FreeBSD jails and Solaris zone= s. Yes, the Linux community re-invents things... A LOT.=C2=A0 When they don't = re-invent and try something new (like systemd), it's nothing short of a mes= s.=C2=A0 It seems more of implementing things of 'I have this cool new idea= .=C2=A0 Let's implement it' versus BSD approach of starting with 'Should we= implement it?'=C2=A0 When there's a new release of the Linux kernel it's, = typically, a mess.=C2=A0 It goes through a zillion patches in 6 months main= ly about security and various holes.=C2=A0 It's really scary how much it mi= mics a Windows release. Freebsd Freebsd : CVE security vulnerabilities, versions and detailed repor= ts |=20 |=20 |=20 |=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 | | | |=20 |=C2=A0 |=20 Freebsd Freebsd : CVE security vulnerabilities, versions and detailed re... Freebsd Freebsd security vulnerabilities, exploits, metasploit modules, vul= nerability statistics and list of ver... | | | Linux Linux Kernel : CVE security vulnerabilities, versions and detailed re= ports |=20 |=20 |=20 |=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 | | | |=20 |=C2=A0 |=20 Linux Linux Kernel : CVE security vulnerabilities, versions and detailed... Linux Linux Kernel security vulnerabilities, exploits, metasploit modules, = vulnerability statistics and list of ... | | | Now, the two links above are just about the SECURITY vulnerabilities introd= uced annually by the COMPLETE OS known as FreeBSD (including it's kernel an= d userland) versus the KERNEL of Linux (this does NOT include the GNU userl= and which is a SEPARATE list of vulnerabilities - a complete GNU/Linux syst= em is substantially higher) More comparison? Microsoft : Products and vulnerabilities |=20 |=20 |=20 |=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 | | | |=20 |=C2=A0 |=20 Microsoft : Products and vulnerabilities Microsoft: List of all products, security vulnerabilities of products, cvss= score reports, detailed graphical re... | | | Also, when viewing the CVE details site, please remember that OSX is NOT Fr= eeBSD.=C2=A0 When you're looking at OSX, you are also looking at a hybrid k= ernel, mostly FreeBSD userland and... their GUI <-- a lot of the vulnerabil= ities are found here. FreeBSD?=C2=A0 Heck, I'll take an x.0-RELEASE and put it in production with= out questioning whether it works or not.=C2=A0 I wait at least 6 months bef= ore rolling out a new Linux kernel/GNU OS. Paul =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Friday, April 17, 2020, 1:04:21 PM EDT, Aryeh Friedman wrote:=C2=A0=20 =20 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:51 PM Ottavio Caruso via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 at 12:02, Aryeh Friedman > wrote: > > > > Before getting into detail in the inline comments it is important to no= te > > there is small but very important philosophical difference in the desig= n > of > > FreeBSD and Linux.=C2=A0 FreeBSD follows the core concept of the Hippoc= ratic > > Oath: "Do no harm" (aka "if it is not broken don't fix it!") and Linsuc= ks > > follows the completely idiotic Facebook mantra of: "Iterate fast and > break > > things" (aka Only an idiot would use it in a life critical application.= ) > > Prepubescent fanboi language that doesn't add much to a technical topic. > Your response shows you completely misread the intent and meaning of my comments.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Also insulting people is likely even less productive= then me quoting some well known cliches. > Translated back into more coherent English, I pretty much like the > 1990's "release often, release early" philosophy, which FreeBSD seems > to have adopted with its recent policy of offering more frequent > releases. > I am all in favor of frequent releases as long they are not broken ones (the base system does well here the ports collection not so well).=C2=A0 I = do daily updates of my installed ports and usually do at least a test install of the first -BETA of every new version (unless it fundamentally breaks something I even switch over to it for my desktop, but wait for -RELEASE before doing it on production servers). Now that being said as I said in the message that you are replying to (and so kindly took out of context) due to my application for production servers the worst possible thing that an OS can do is something that is potentially harmful and FreeBSD is one the best behaved in this regard where is linsucks is by far the worst offender in this area. > > -- > Ottavio Caruso > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =C2=A0=20 _______________________________________________ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " =20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 18:14:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AEC62C3B98 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:14:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493kkQ4JY2z4Nh0 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:14:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id l60so2725814qtd.8 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:14:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=erBZtw7FPzXTVXlAVaheei8xQc09sRuBGFkCd1LjHTM=; b=tTJbq+DsN6CkV52rk8vuvL0o6dHq+3meanMig1vq1NYZR9eOELAHdyxwLPdwPgYhkv uJLvOP0dvSGMxW+sgzNuhTUJw+gvGdynqf/wyl9604Kxwj1hZAkcNQ0+I/r4QX/98oeX 8oymMFJgOSjPpmKL433NIQBu3eFlSlM76F+IFFS/kw2gxP/J+g/EpfTzbKoGyo96TvaR AozeVKBYKY/twSm8Y5+6zTs/LGyLHtSUBgegvb2tLZkIgz95Y/IyNHZoS0NQ98KKWCof LpB0LiHPQ9B4J/FJCAcP0gXvT94T91fKTD824sXyZOe6jeuJzpfv9nh5ePetnwdL3cqX NuUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=erBZtw7FPzXTVXlAVaheei8xQc09sRuBGFkCd1LjHTM=; b=DPNyTgPm0ZGfbeq815r1rvmJFO5wax11U3WB1ol6wbjl8wBWgk4Qcsazk/2m8ED2Xw NwQsjKp9xp56cuAxdh7TtM+JtdCHgCkwxfKVHSs3naPJ/2ASGGwoOK3cIEg8jmjIiPM/ R7yX6FedqUCOqIOiwZQNMZqd05vs+tnmJG5GVQUTALxModsXyUvHB/2b8rYk/mVyjls+ Uvv7B+QZt1jh1li7xNkKFhmEaonuz74f7hX7vrn4HPOjE0ysXYda6ts5EUdGlrndbeWX QiVBOcigjRKkg0YwTIZF0HpLYL2Xv/5eedvV4reS9LELOBFssExoT5vYBQ8+h6yz16Vt TbBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYCdjyxQ3aK37c7G+UiqxVBAr9Dpf5DT/iqOaUl+YkBhwXx+5Yz aVgKl3QGJMYyK+9WY6xK/vBy335Hbv9mBTS0i9xScdsgePkhpw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIurPXAw67Ns4mCjbs3pKV8Vugso3mu9LFviEIRurqmA9+zZ9RB0l53WJrcY0nzAjH8BRympdUH6pN9l2GOS6U= X-Received: by 2002:aed:374a:: with SMTP id i68mr4354604qtb.69.1587147244369; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:14:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> From: Michael Sierchio Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:13:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: FreeBSD Questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493kkQ4JY2z4Nh0 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=tTJbq+Ds; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::833) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.30 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.00)[ip: (-9.19), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:14:07 -0000 https://youtu.be/LQCU36pkH7c On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:16 AM kindu smith wrote: > Hello, I am a user who likes UNIX-like systems. I have some experience > using GNU / Linux and some experience using freebsd. I like the > architecture of UNIX-like systems, but I am not proficient, so I just > want to mention some improvements. The idea of freebsd experience, > what is unscientific, welcome to advise. > > First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent > the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface > are too old. It is time to make some changes. I think the freebsd with > microkernel will be more stable. The / boot / kernel directory is very > suitable for writing a small kernel, such as named core, and then > design some modules around and package it in this directory. Then, > under / boot, create some new directories such as EFI, API, ABI, model, > etc. to do EFI boot and application program interface, and user space > modules. I think this will be a perfect design. As for the design > pattern of the microkernel, you can refer to haiku (a clone of beos). > In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a > complete desktop environment, because this is very important for > novices. I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. > It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by > Freebsd. > > Freebsd should design a gorgeous interface comparable to macos, in > addition to a set of init programs comparable to systemd. Therefore, > both the bootloader and init programs need to be redesigned. For > example, when Linux starts, it displays ok and colored driver loading > reminders. Freebsd can learn from it. I think that the Linux startup > program is not perfect. It is still in the startup mode similar to the > console. The more modern startup program should be a perfect > combination of graphical and startup information. The driver is a flaw > of freebsd. Due to the limited number of developers, a large number of > other systems are required, such as copying from linux. so copy it from > linux. The GPL agreement does not affect the use of freebsd code. Only > in this way can freebsd and linux form a differentiated competition, > can freebsd survive the huge wave of linux. > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 18:18:21 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD912C3D92 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:18:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493kqJ3lR0z4P5B for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:18:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id b12so3304621ion.8 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:18:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yhhpMfTHEHK6BxoQRD1+JUAvVnBzRyMmQ/BrkYEM2KY=; b=dYbXrK2sGVgpW4cQygvZEyDKE1fXrOX2WtU2RPlp5kU8Ll/VB3cw1Cr3+9kq6i/AKL fTG+aqRcJcH8Xsy/5iCcyvMseKx0UQ0rqK7GRwbb7MP/N2n40kFzFOuYq52gii8iazQX C3fwXOw7fhnF/tH5G+Undy0EbaQ5l/4L8iKC1bb14z3hinEkD/TctqhmYDEwjdw9/2rP LsOJT8WoHDqDSjKvARWSO3DPXJY53Ns15MoT1pNJVWsNaONYC1BS+biZlT96z8NFL+BZ Hqx3ZRPxUQzDSuckcf40kYdRG2gm6X6HFm3h9uQi+Bb6FyA+mB+FIB8HywOOAl4Sfyhf XAJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yhhpMfTHEHK6BxoQRD1+JUAvVnBzRyMmQ/BrkYEM2KY=; b=K6PrOVctE1Gn7MVl7cY7NSZrk1J0LdPL2D554+aMqZrQwcTIIGTLQNK/CecbTCKTxE JPZ0PTJjbLNPjDk3fkURJOrXHaDpUbqXHqG5g5F7RHcrxROsIVafOl7rNKGozdoWq83b 73HOkUoJjn/tttZN7rDx1A8vB9HyBwavM9LI+pSecR4KCODCm1qiGTEfFT7KfBKdIkBq N+cTmiI4wKur5+DZWHMV12dj+PtB9jHborwtsS2GF9SZIj2Kk1axzsukTUNYTB8ZzOl4 fuancYI/jBjMfE2ud2KU5Uiw4m/5J1nPmiIBfMXDViQi7lrYRHiwj8Ynq0bzAD9gx85x p0vw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYq3Ps52AEMjWu9HtM2k53rvXv1JPs3wJv6XuDZPHMTEEosz4O3 vcf45WYhLFtFCcpSJTa9pVlYVW17b2x1/AFHhx8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI46F1Lz7Cdcf2S2iN4i/Blbz1eSFTpQEkGDvkJiZE+EChYDWn/JEzKGmJYpbgZtNspu28iiDTL5cVQmYDq8wM= X-Received: by 2002:a02:3341:: with SMTP id k1mr4759832jak.74.1587147499288; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 11:18:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:18:07 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Paul Pathiakis Cc: Ottavio Caruso , FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493kqJ3lR0z4P5B X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=dYbXrK2s; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[3]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-5.35), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.3.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yahoo.com] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:18:21 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:03 PM Paul Pathiakis wrote: > I'm a system architect/Sr System Administrator, comp sci degree, 30 years > experience, etc. > > I have to make a living. I do so with RH/CentOS etc. > > Honestly, if people truly understood the difference between BSD and Linux > (full OS vs kernel) and all the nuances as well as the philosophy, I truly > believe that there would be a large migration to FreeBSD. Most of the > largest and most successful companies in their respective fields use it. > (Apple, Netflix, NetApp, etc) > A very important distinction needs to be made here all the above (including your use as sys/netadmin) are essentially end user applications and thus there revenue is derived from means other then selling the code they develop. Apple is first and foremost a hardware company, Netflix is a content company, NetApp sales raw disk space (btw I should thank them for bhyve). As a *programmer* I make my living from writing code and the fundamental problem with GPL is it forces me to give away the one way I make a living (I do not sell hardware, IT services, movie rentals, etc.). How is it fair under any possible definition of fair to force me to give away the thing I need/use to survive? -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 18:51:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27822C4D6B for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:51:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10002e03da6.a55edf4906c884346efcd0a4881a08be@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b0c6.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.176.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493lYs2Hjyz4S5W for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:51:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 4250.82.1d4c10002e03da6.a55edf4906c884346efcd0a4881a08be@email-od.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1587149505; x=1589741505; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-thread-info; bh=dIz6njBRyL8YOSLpypOSd2W8QkvSM7NHCLfgKSeQwa8=; b=srbD/oEj4AjtV7CWE90VuN9/ZM9g2dyBwtSwPdl6ovgFXGQRpc/xgOUcwkP7zn9iCSshovdE7KStODLzzAQjZTEIn4GGwUzGC+ho5N4OYq/E3XRNgDJKjkmVjQ+DABHwtyUbDruz6f7uNP+xkJ3pDg/+xl9J1Yp0ZTzibkcrHQc= X-Thread-Info: NDI1MC45Mi4xZDRjMTAwMDJlMDNkYTYuZnJlZWJzZC1xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r4.h.in.socketlabs.com (s1-b40f.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.180.15]) by mxsg2.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:51:36 -0400 Received: from smtp.lan.sohara.org (EMTPY [185.202.17.215]) by r4.h.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:51:35 -0400 Received: from [192.168.63.1] (helo=steve.lan.sohara.org) by smtp.lan.sohara.org with smtp (Exim 4.92.3 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1jPW5O-000HpL-1Z; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:51:34 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:51:33 +0100 From: Steve O'Hara-Smith To: "Norman Gray" Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-Id: <20200417195133.6b141c4aa8c0b402a8fdb72f@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: <423845A3-98EA-4F84-92F4-DD1DD26A8DFB@glasgow.ac.uk> References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <20200417171839.4538036d626667f168936c7f@sohara.org> <423845A3-98EA-4F84-92F4-DD1DD26A8DFB@glasgow.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.32; amd64-portbld-freebsd12.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493lYs2Hjyz4S5W X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=srbD/oEj; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 4250.82.1d4c10002e03da6.a55edf4906c884346efcd0a4881a08be@email-od.com designates 142.0.176.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=4250.82.1d4c10002e03da6.a55edf4906c884346efcd0a4881a08be@email-od.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.969,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[email-od.com:s=dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[sohara.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[email-od.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[198.176.0.142.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.15.0]; IP_SCORE(0.03)[ip: (-0.23), ipnet: 142.0.176.0/22(0.33), asn: 7381(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10002e03da6.a55edf4906c884346efcd0a4881a08be@email-od.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7381, ipnet:142.0.176.0/22, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[steve@sohara.org,4250.82.1d4c10002e03da6.a55edf4906c884346efcd0a4881a08be@email-od.com]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:51:46 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:50:52 +0100 "Norman Gray" wrote: > > Steve, hello. > > On 17 Apr 2020, at 17:18, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > > > If the OP wants FreeBSD running on a microkernel then surely > > Darwin is where they should start looking - mostly FreeBSD running on > > Mach which > > is a bona-fide message passing microkernel. > > It's a tangent to this thread, but: can you point to anything which > discusses this in more detail? The horses mouth: -- Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 18:53:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573A02C4EA0 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:53:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493lbv5MYDz4SQF for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:53:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.139.78]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CCE7E4E67C for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:44:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <88f01d4d-d112-c0b0-853b-56db6b50cc82@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:44:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493lbv5MYDz4SQF X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[78.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[78.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.99)[0.995,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (0.31), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.15), asn: 160(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:53:32 -0000 On 4/17/20 1:18 PM, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:03 PM Paul Pathiakis wrote: > >> I'm a system architect/Sr System Administrator, comp sci degree, 30 years >> experience, etc. >> >> I have to make a living. I do so with RH/CentOS etc. >> >> Honestly, if people truly understood the difference between BSD and Linux >> (full OS vs kernel) and all the nuances as well as the philosophy, I truly >> believe that there would be a large migration to FreeBSD. Most of the >> largest and most successful companies in their respective fields use it. >> (Apple, Netflix, NetApp, etc) >> > > A very important distinction needs to be made here all the above (including > your use as sys/netadmin) are essentially end user applications and thus > there revenue is derived from means other then selling the code they > develop. Apple is first and foremost a hardware company, Netflix is a > content company, NetApp sales raw disk space (btw I should thank them for > bhyve). > > As a *programmer* I make my living from writing code and the fundamental > problem with GPL is it forces me to give away the one way I make a living > (I do not sell hardware, IT services, movie rentals, etc.). How is it > fair under any possible definition of fair to force me to give away the > thing I need/use to survive? > The answer here is simple: it is free World (hm, almost). Don't do what you feel is not fair with respect to you. If you [partly] use GNU licensed code, you will have to release whatever uses it written by you under the same GNU license. If you don't want to, but still need to use/incorporate into your code somebody's else, you can use code released under open source licenses that allow to keep derived code closed source (BSD and Apache licenses come to mind). Another alternative, get yourself hired by company, which creates closed source products and which likely will own everything you create. You will get your dough for programming. How fair _that_ is you will discover when you leave the company and will not be able you re-use the code you created being in that company for anything else. There always are choices. I was a programmed once, but now I'm humble sysadmin, but no, not because of software licensing affecting my life. This is something I do better these days. Just my 2 cents. Valeri -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 19:06:38 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252972C52CA for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:06:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@proulx.com) Received: from havoc.proulx.com (havoc.proulx.com [96.88.95.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493lv02YVxz4TYH for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:06:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bob@proulx.com) Received: from joseki.proulx.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by havoc.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6F4540 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:06:34 -0600 (MDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=proulx.com; s=dkim2048; t=1587150394; bh=rAc4CrHMignYxxRfOXe3vB00lILOzHEfX4poP1Y0DBU=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=hZzqmag2qlKo1K5cULdq8kcvYRO928Cr6dCAcxq2O3qQtKUzqmgL3yAt30H2kbYUW EPsde4BLYbrK4JqliLnAjsa41Snrd5zuawO+er4SLtwO0hE/yqywGukrml2JQQnktk LGLNL18gHVSNGNYG52hl8ofw9b7jV2GubSb8mHrI5JOt7Hv8n71I7ZA09w2F+se6sW 0YdRz5Cgr9HPNhJ/lOaDi2NhcP5jRP9Yay/T4RwClgu8+6e303taNdLjP5U82oeadd ZwlGFaHKDtuiQn2Pu6Df3ysocDO6Fq7QcNT9sWcQ+21h+M86xjSRL1TFGzcE8nbcgB jYNkUftaOzDSQ== Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48DE21151 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:06:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CA9002DC93; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:06:33 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:06:33 -0600 From: Bob Proulx To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a standalone spreadsheet program available for Freebsd? Message-ID: <20200417125102642315039@bob.proulx.com> References: <20200417120548.GC894@rancor.immure.com> <5dada2a9-6348-be80-b51b-303ff5b8790c@druid.net> <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200417150551.GD894@rancor.immure.com> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493lv02YVxz4TYH X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=proulx.com header.s=dkim2048 header.b=hZzqmag2; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of bob@proulx.com designates 96.88.95.61 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bob@proulx.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.02 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.993,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[proulx.com:s=dkim2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[proulx.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[proulx.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[61.95.88.96.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-0.53)[ipnet: 96.64.0.0/11(-1.96), asn: 7922(-0.64), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:96.64.0.0/11, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:06:38 -0000 Bob Willcox wrote: > What I would like would be something simple w/o lots of features as my intended > use is simple. I just want to be able to list expense items and their cost and > have them added up as a monthly expense budget. That's all. For such things I have been using 'ledger'. It's in the package database. (Although I personally use 'hledger', a friendly fork, more.) $ pkg search ledger ledger-3.1.1_18 John Wiegley's command line accounting program You can learn more about such tools here. https://plaintextaccounting.org/ Something like ledger (or hledger) might be exactly what you want. Bob From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 19:09:47 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309C22C541F for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:09:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x342.google.com (mail-ot1-x342.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::342]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493lyd5yZ5z4TlD for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:09:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x342.google.com with SMTP id i22so2313447otp.12 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:09:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ibhX3EispTem9GNPX3OvRGhLwyaAL0/tdG0W3ULbUQU=; b=Tg5u/cLXsX2V+tqo0SR+UBrZu/ZiCIgs/uTrVmI6Tf0ChINv9G1wIo9nngLbVGCSYq tyEKle8cfhezxSTtIQFsPalrmlvXNrAQ+u/nCH1ikRkfR7Hvv3R9hNAApVtFqJtY800l mxkuIJJX3imyI66VImxHWb0Ba5N7wLcO3mYLD9g2f4ARMiNdQGhqVyXQIKDZT0jEFidp XWIajg3nRaRn9SXKdq35OchlUEvLRwIsewSaJgfzTg72MAPe5fG810WzYgLEFbGXmzBg eAPkckhU/h0ELy6aC7d238ZEPcOY5k+gKRVrjtj97jpaqpiRjHIiq4MRQQ0Xw5v+wJ0A jkmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ibhX3EispTem9GNPX3OvRGhLwyaAL0/tdG0W3ULbUQU=; b=N/28ZdIUwhvpnwrpK5qIhEebauNduaRVxAvw2QFOgNbUzlTtsUPpzh1+43xraIsYUx pwCShN9Xx0Im3WXxZ5FtkK7cHOt5/sPb8JFJxz/Jcliox0dhjLxC2pRuOFbfR31dZOzg Lmha578hz5JBIGT+9HDnmg4QakqvxIrCuutlpq0annxJOrKgbNXUxxcMtxwdQ/ihgHz3 4p3rlTJv1vr967CWneKGcWPd9heJ1U2O/z4e2kf4c8UotzDEd5q1fNY2ywVbw8AMBVKD +7l0tInv+fWjxJ+Ofe0PUf5rT37yEJetNpYJKqVhwzn0FU/gvHS4pYxeFNMsow5X45Wj p6Sg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Puai05U9005r+54gqGuGlQ1W8e39GmAjljf2W10Zj3iY/l18RwF9 g2/jkBsdoARoNaoYfmZBOVpM5g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLRZ5HW3YjMoQLjrbklL4K3YM+LQD7TTpjTtPixnDBqDwvFG7hkUq8yw5mAVJzgWeIHBk5vEg== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:734a:: with SMTP id l10mr276551otk.42.1587150584438; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f44.google.com (mail-ot1-f44.google.com. [209.85.210.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j137sm4334301oih.23.2020.04.17.12.09.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f44.google.com with SMTP id j4so2314286otr.11; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:09:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:108c:: with SMTP id y12mr244690oto.159.1587150583055; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:09:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> <24c43065-527d-499b-282a-43df2a947a1d@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:09:13 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Jan Beich Cc: Theron , Niclas Zeising , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493lyd5yZ5z4TlD X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=Tg5u/cLX; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::342) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.08)[ip: (0.42), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:09:47 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:02 PM Jan Beich wrote: > xf86-video-intel support ends after CoffeeLake. Current version in ports/ > is more than 1 year old, so maybe try the patch in bug 236003. > > Outside of DDX Intel deprecated pre-Broadwell support: > - beignet is abandoned in favor of compute-runtime (aka NEO) > - intel-vaapi-driver is maintenance-only in favor of media-driver > - i965 development slowed down in favor of iris (default since Mesa 20.0.0) Thank you Jan! To be honest I just need several monitors to work, web browser, KiCAD, FreeCAD, Blender, most of my work I do in a terminal+tmux anyway :-) Nice image quality, 3D acceleration, and OpenCL would be really nice to have but not a blocker to work (it would bring efficiency and comfort for sure). For years I was using simple vesa video driver on my FreeBSD laptop and I could live with that. I had another machine for multimedia (macOS). Now I am working only on a FreeBSD laptop, so basic work requirements come first. I am keeping my fingers for DRM KMS Intel for my laptop (multiple monitors) and AMDGPU OpenCL for my workstation (GPU computing). Threre is no reason to invest time into something that is dead already (x11-intel). > Unlikely. modesetting reached "good enough" level while X11 is > deprecated in favor of Wayland. Compared to Mesa or Wayland compositors > there's little activity in xserver repo nowadays. For years I did work on Xfce4. Now I am working on Enlightenment WM, they stated Weyland support is already there and they plan to abandon X11, so maybe its time to play again with Weyland, thanks for motivating :-) > See also https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/merge_requests/24 > > Given modesetting uses glamor picture quality may depend on Mesa. > Try using more recent version, especially "iris" driver. > > https://github.com/myfreeweb/freebsd-ports-dank/blob/lite/graphics/mesa-dev > https://github.com/evadot/freebsd-ports/tree/mesa/graphics/mesa > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23161 Its good to know people are working on it.. should show up one day on my desktop too :-) Best regards! :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 19:10:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC742C54E5 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:10:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from plockton.cent.gla.ac.uk (plockton.cent.gla.ac.uk [130.209.16.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493lz933Czz4TrK for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:10:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk) Received: from cas08.campus.gla.ac.uk ([130.209.14.165]) by plockton.cent.gla.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1jPWNP-0000T1-GT; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:10:11 +0100 Received: from CAS08.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.165) by cas08.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.165) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:10:11 +0100 Received: from GBR01-LO2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.21.58) by CAS08.campus.gla.ac.uk (130.209.14.165) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:10:11 +0100 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=NgaWa/S50f5kWmn4v85XPN2hpQgG6WPF8M5QwaYds9KlotuSWYdIdrXQgJRPIqd5zvpCjWyXWQPzlnVRv9WrJGqSLPD0diMzeL1NZrN0ij8ypKJ/acsF4CPAF0RK2ke4TcXCpI8qpFg60nQGJ++05nQlCORE4r0hJHKq+jP6M2n0KOjuLkSskZeAEed32+8cI+UhbiFOZIuKSIGEukwb6rRkvk5ynxkPm6EuvlmvPDkEy6tF37kEUNBkhwm5kH7RoH1Hqoy2pYkIF/85c+zmtPzQMC20cj1geT1XYmE+mMjiL3u5HXc5UzEo0IyWtaSzkeZ0eUIgs/jQLVzSW6eUlA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=2zx6dSeYhqflqZocjAGkV1TiwzwIM7bSgtXbf95wrCo=; b=AyL1xSQinZBvMN2jMPerLhOBaxepvVlmwCkR2iXgJfK2Z4SRd7EktXRVl+oHu8tM8x0ePLrh7nON7BQ9d+INYx+gF0Z/ApA6CZHHg0IgEwJr/0sYgA4R/uRaigiV+pumvRQk8gEaZVXanDM8+bfGTbShXlbck0eoqtuMBt9co+fIU172OWgGKVFCDZWUKrAnHd4tiyGrO1tDlOEJ/j5R5BdJLIr4HaLkz9Y9Izibe88aac+pC490Ko0azurSn9rn4RbMoQ73GbOCz0kxOtsRVsY4s8TPROMNUefHHfWmGKAcYgJJw2GyPyXplSOQQWoQXckbSXiRX5HqFJfSzrymjQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=glasgow.ac.uk; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=glasgow.ac.uk; dkim=pass header.d=glasgow.ac.uk; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gla.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=2zx6dSeYhqflqZocjAGkV1TiwzwIM7bSgtXbf95wrCo=; b=o1MlCqnb/fukugStfH3lHZMrFMz/z4/ptRVFtF/D9UGZoQHMX9KD6VcTopWPnAn/uG37J3ua3jrRE8fFNhL9N5nkTxbb11gw847ovve7ZS2buEQNLurVNvZLoDZLX4uY8if9SQdPxVie0KWwf73GyiMXkf/t2i53wHthcumzQJ4= Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.144.19) by CWXP265MB0598.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (10.164.185.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2900.24; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:10:10 +0000 Received: from CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd]) by CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::40d7:744b:8734:b8dd%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2921.027; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:10:10 +0000 From: "Norman Gray" To: Steve O'Hara-Smith CC: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:10:09 +0100 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20200417195133.6b141c4aa8c0b402a8fdb72f@sohara.org> References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <20200417171839.4538036d626667f168936c7f@sohara.org> <423845A3-98EA-4F84-92F4-DD1DD26A8DFB@glasgow.ac.uk> <20200417195133.6b141c4aa8c0b402a8fdb72f@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ClientProxiedBy: LO2P265CA0476.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a2::32) To CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:401:8::19) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [192.168.1.29] (2001:8b0:df5:af53:49eb:74f9:8890:5f79) by LO2P265CA0476.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:a2::32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2921.27 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:10:10 +0000 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) X-Originating-IP: [2001:8b0:df5:af53:49eb:74f9:8890:5f79] X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 75f5984c-7c6a-4ab7-b3fc-08d7e302f2ed X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: CWXP265MB0598: X-MS-Exchange-Transport-Forked: True X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:9508; X-Forefront-PRVS: 0376ECF4DD X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:CWXP265MB0149.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(10009020)(366004)(136003)(39860400002)(376002)(346002)(396003)(316002)(81156014)(5660300002)(4326008)(786003)(2906002)(53546011)(33656002)(52116002)(8936002)(8676002)(966005)(6486002)(36756003)(6916009)(66476007)(66556008)(16526019)(478600001)(186003)(86362001)(2616005)(66946007); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; Received-SPF: None (protection.outlook.com: glasgow.ac.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: X8GshfXg1g3rrT+pOsJZ24mpvAI0CMat91huZ3MEDj1GXgTZitKyEkIu3aTFeromthwM0LxwThsavEt/hsc8qRyXnlcha6gSq43I4TXRaShep0gdSJuHbnoCLWtazoGvoxe8watx+Qbn3Y7r6JfReSo8FAb6fu1M7cmpU8jBjjIYmsbKrEM2o6tclv7VJ9bRtZUqrkGQPasMCpr1n4Atyo2zisjvTr3Wn+QXgSVprB2j1uzUVnHsdrOjiRj/cVL2twdOxp7UGkQX6aUoOexbzsTpUnJLUZ1Rinbn3GUSw/HJSAX+gvU3sEPloJ74kk5WPDkWsGZ6hrQXapPRklXomItpTRjT3jvlQQ4zmIAnDSvpsENtOgAztKmvYAOoFH9f2rJNXq4NoxWgcY/DI+rcZokzp8z1i1D5l0d62j+YUKskiphhTOD20REyWl82AlWGdSIgoN/yL5mLYCaDB0HFFDCvEM2twEndKlAfc2JdB3I23sp/9lPRwopiiUvTVnpvoKk0sXGVjFUAL7YdqBIzUA== X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: F9b0jq6MyJSNYydj7sN4QFZriW9H3T9Vcvr72bYdlGTOZybCtI0xvT21Yh3EsvaRTCxUyDqBOb0lGoZPTyeWokCUunefRQTjjnYhe9R7mUn4DBv4tebD17IhAHC6Ne1a66OvSlIouEJ/l2yLfegTTDT29nD/EzI9ZRBA9F+SrOgDFlF787gjcYhQWq7QlQS/KnPCFZlrVEr6JL2KzQj9gA== X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 75f5984c-7c6a-4ab7-b3fc-08d7e302f2ed X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Apr 2020 19:10:10.3377 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 6e725c29-763a-4f50-81f2-2e254f0133c8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: w/ma+ouUUfGvvB/4oM+hRHdQT78GBLLdhZJLXTH+cJzEleL3SBDi7dzbNhUFlj7qp96neBbNisrXnpWL7s0B+WWozfrqh/XmQveaZhLMch0= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CWXP265MB0598 X-OriginatorOrg: glasgow.ac.uk X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493lz933Czz4TrK X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gla.onmicrosoft.com header.s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com header.b=o1MlCqnb; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk has no SPF policy when checking 130.209.16.75) smtp.mailfrom=Norman.Gray@glasgow.ac.uk X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.46 / 15.00]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[7]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:s=selector2-gla-onmicrosoft-com]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[75.16.209.130.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_MISSING_CHARSET(2.50)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.96)[ipnet: 130.209.0.0/16(-4.38), asn: 786(-0.35), country: GB(-0.07)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[glasgow.ac.uk]; RCVD_DKIM_ARC_DNSWL_MED(-0.50)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[75.16.209.130.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.11.2]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gla.onmicrosoft.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:786, ipnet:130.209.0.0/16, country:GB]; ARC_ALLOW(-1.00)[i=1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:10:14 -0000 Steve, hello. On 17 Apr 2020, at 19:51, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > It's a tangent to this thread, but: can you point to anything which >> discusses this in more detail? > > > The horses mouth: > > Aha! Thank you. Inspired by that, I also found = = (from 2013). Much to read there. I do remember, though, reading somewhere that there was a continuing = relationship between Apple/Darwin and FreeBSD, extending even to Apple = sponsoring FreeBSD development shared with Darwin, with code flowing in = one direction or the other. Did I imagine that, or misremember it? My difficulty in finding any corroboration of that is possibly due to a = failure of google-fu on my part, and possibly a function of Apple's = famous degree of cheerful chattiness when it comes to engineering = internals. Best wishes, Norman -- = Norman Gray : https://nxg.me.uk SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 19:30:02 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D632C6494 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:30:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from mailbackend.panix.com (mailbackend.panix.com [166.84.1.89]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493mQ15H2sz4XF0 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:30:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kh@panix.com) Received: from rain.home (pool-173-48-64-3.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [173.48.64.3]) by mailbackend.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 493mQ05RBSzqMp for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <20200417171839.4538036d626667f168936c7f@sohara.org> <423845A3-98EA-4F84-92F4-DD1DD26A8DFB@glasgow.ac.uk> <20200417195133.6b141c4aa8c0b402a8fdb72f@sohara.org> From: Kurt Hackenberg Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:29:58 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200417195133.6b141c4aa8c0b402a8fdb72f@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493mQ15H2sz4XF0 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kh@panix.com designates 166.84.1.89 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kh@panix.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.90 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[89.1.84.166.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:166.84.0.0/16]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[panix.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[89.1.84.166.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.2]; IP_SCORE(-3.40)[ip: (-9.53), ipnet: 166.84.0.0/16(-4.11), asn: 2033(-3.29), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2033, ipnet:166.84.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:30:02 -0000 On 2020-04-17 14:51, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: >>> If the OP wants FreeBSD running on a microkernel then surely >>> Darwin is where they should start looking - mostly FreeBSD running on >>> Mach which >>> is a bona-fide message passing microkernel. >> >> It's a tangent to this thread, but: can you point to anything which >> discusses this in more detail? > > The horses mouth: > > Also: From that last one: "XNU is a hybrid kernel, containing features of both monolithic kernels and microkernels, attempting to make the best use of both technologies, such as the message passing ability of microkernels enabling greater modularity and larger portions of the OS to benefit from memory protection, and retaining the speed of monolithic kernels for some critical tasks." From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 19:30:34 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F62F2C6549 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:30:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493mQc4kdmz4XKq for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:30:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.12.118.76]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue106 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MMFZQ-1jhkIh23Da-00JJBA; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:30:25 +0200 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:30:25 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: Paul Pathiakis , FreeBSD Mailing List Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-Id: <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:C4oQ9Ni9ym8Nf2vYPcOmAVrqphuKEWXIf558AppxB1LhXeb2rfN B2JAGR2CGMqTTqdtguM0GRPe52xVOZBDCS29pBjKMFt1eNjXcNkme4bdlGTCgR6hv+9/EI6 YYbDAijyfeBvwcbYG0aJvCnGH8AVUhcjoFYH0lmzh/BdNpe2ID5iqGF5rAY0H62lTBV0mZC 90Lz2/hh3FK6ZSrLh8Snw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:T1wWhmFHKNE=:AO2CGTCJ8Xw+KoKD+61vyS 2k6UVGCOFURdzBKgmzHIHZOXlvUmT95p4Q8zNbRcuzF+HAF5ZAdckkj8cfwIhycG6lURj8pZm 3zuYPSJhQDr31/GuJMnQkwlA3z7ghP4Mu9sXaJpQb8lVQ8kvw0IzbfeKlWnm0cBz96Onl0iK4 +xuFDdXV+4BKUVsuTVsa5bkLfxvmnv8YeNHeWMWApsvWrUrbbISP4PWzLeFBmxgRX69ch+11Q N6KlJpnHait2ZP8A3ig2JmTul4ZWny9QK4s7gr87h2DMPTJ4GVrOtONNCfaWInAU4/oD5ocGI MaxQ6H6yKFOFmqFWn0cOkhmslICKBLfsNFDnSwkzKSJcRlHt7wQ8sNh85o21H5iVIhAgVgfZH 6RIoNn71qvA+PDLzRV35gsP8fx06DKjYh98kcdygLALVjcnNZUZp/sNE7wanEFvCyMAuyF6rh 6T0Tdn5CNT8N5k99aT9GC8zK1OhLCsgClPjavNiX6QKysj/PLoNOmE+BnKrD7HHONkWXuNara 3hzFoTvD/TovJlbLArWtkvFNHCzc6GWQlZEQ8fQkIgn2YJaa18AhIHsXCKhJG8+tp8/qhPrUQ xQEWHdgChzrcBtTQy4X19eWotqVfHFIbngeJuHEmo653wmgVWsWs9Wf3v1rHPHtxoxCmRcmRY uW2SLgI/39z/XkaLMHsGGnHVI83GO2ltFle7+yLwSril7pwEVOuT9feVGZTvshwSsenl3EgBb exxa24Szuw6PmKlW4n2aqsfReFDjUPF/BKzPGJkMq7Jg1OPtZert0c/7NEvwpsrJY/OWWelmL s2rfKRvW+2zE6g2FXNH933VZarAYK+ytSce1yrwGaXPnEkw672nqjFl35aw9qkW7tFgxB0T X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493mQc4kdmz4XKq X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.10) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.62 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; IP_SCORE(0.07)[ip: (-0.55), ipnet: 212.227.0.0/16(-1.19), asn: 8560(2.09), country: DE(-0.02)]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[76.118.12.178.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.18)[0.182,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.97)[0.972,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[10.17.227.212.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[10.17.227.212.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[yahoo.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:30:34 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:18:07 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > As a *programmer* I make my living from writing code and the fundamental > problem with GPL is it forces me to give away the one way I make a living > (I do not sell hardware, IT services, movie rentals, etc.). How is it > fair under any possible definition of fair to force me to give away the > thing I need/use to survive? The _choice_ of licensing terms is very important to a programmer. The BSD license has been criticized as a "rape me license" quite often. However, if a developer is fine with that, and intendedly wants to allow others to make money using the code he wrote, the BSD license can do that. (It might be worth noting that copyright and "inventorship" have nothing to do with licensing.) Other licenses such as the CDDL and the different GPL versions grant rights to potential users in _different_ ways. Licensing terms in commercial software can be totally different (and sometimes can allow legally justified harm toward the user). Given the terms that the GPL requires, the programmer who wishes to make money with his work will have to be quite careful in how far he lets GPL-licensed material dictate how he works. The common consensus is: If you don't agree with it - don't use it. So the programmer simply has to avoid GPL-licensed material. That is the choice _he_ can make. The creators of the licensed material already made _their_ choice - by choosing GPL. That doesn't of course please everyone, but it is a valid decision. The fairness in this context is that _you_ cannot be forced to give away your work for free, but it requires you to _not_ use GPL-licensed material. The construct here is: You want something - you do something. (And likewise: You don't want something - you don't do something.) Yes, this is oversimplified. ;-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 19:30:43 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88132C66AD for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:30:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493mQq02byz4XN2 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:30:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id u5so3282574ilb.5 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:30:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hFLkUrhspp1L0NnVuFUv+2jdJRLRXcQ3T8E+H5da3EE=; b=POR8rAZJjONQrDARqB5MtX8u7KjJJvvZib9HIcwVpS7foFTrCSagj5O0drLecxHq3+ rzLJNyvPD7gpVntdVzLH2Y4AMR9guqnr+82XDpjlCzEY8qZZtwWeitmBP6bbUtem8Se4 y0isdSJ4of8xBCqiKlOllfxwdtQonROcsje0XCvctubreg070WX8paPwokuW3L6eEi6S gQ1imLB53GZK244LEf2ZyjZUcEhGlSRYZGnRyr0gwcwj0BMTXaJjGwO7FaLu9fjouT3n sQXKmCueB45HI8XjGu/EXoEMhcPhZfqq9HLZwKVq/00xmUqS9v7s/cLqiEcxZFsqfEE9 kQoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hFLkUrhspp1L0NnVuFUv+2jdJRLRXcQ3T8E+H5da3EE=; b=Nf0g6TA+ai8MAENGp2yuCjoAmj76F1ucu07u7jTfdfDBwjLHIt1cBKxmZ8qRfRbZ7N /kbNL3ur7aCRZPStKwJyCKA5uJbSyB/XtWeg5Ga+0x7MOWmoQ6C5Mpvv8vv8rLV40zrC 4zeUEluy1qE8oBgoK//fhKyks68oSLj/uY17BVII/mrN3vVC60b5EDji4qTdIh8brAp9 HyQEy7GxEAs4wFm2SWCzsj3ja0+B8TqJw2ElmeS9nJAQ7IxFvp17degzt9hFJk/k3Sjy fTtDbwsSjQEbGuvsfb67I73MnfH762/M/TUlxb5+rkKxZDqmVKQCLHvzJqGzpOlmqjj1 naEw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZORy55CQUmVOHqqLdsP5B+8Iq5XTT43nEqv+5gxR3Wr7o9cZp3 uNE1B+mU8b0P84QzUHJpry4SoRXGcFXV8gPFVGTLGB1J X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIv7JSJgVATlFrmdKjkAjojnHBzj/j+0bs5VJRMVLGIlkpm5DJ5c/aceFp/r7vqnF1CR7/rCvPtA+hVdyDadV4= X-Received: by 2002:a92:7ed2:: with SMTP id q79mr4927093ill.81.1587151841863; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:30:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <88f01d4d-d112-c0b0-853b-56db6b50cc82@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <88f01d4d-d112-c0b0-853b-56db6b50cc82@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 15:30:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493mQq02byz4XN2 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=POR8rAZJ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.52), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:30:43 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:53 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 4/17/20 1:18 PM, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 2:03 PM Paul Pathiakis > wrote: > > > >> I'm a system architect/Sr System Administrator, comp sci degree, 30 > years > >> experience, etc. > >> > >> I have to make a living. I do so with RH/CentOS etc. > >> > >> Honestly, if people truly understood the difference between BSD and > Linux > >> (full OS vs kernel) and all the nuances as well as the philosophy, I > truly > >> believe that there would be a large migration to FreeBSD. Most of the > >> largest and most successful companies in their respective fields use it. > >> (Apple, Netflix, NetApp, etc) > >> > > > > A very important distinction needs to be made here all the above > (including > > your use as sys/netadmin) are essentially end user applications and thus > > there revenue is derived from means other then selling the code they > > develop. Apple is first and foremost a hardware company, Netflix is a > > content company, NetApp sales raw disk space (btw I should thank them for > > bhyve). > > > > As a *programmer* I make my living from writing code and the fundamental > > problem with GPL is it forces me to give away the one way I make a living > > (I do not sell hardware, IT services, movie rentals, etc.). How is it > > fair under any possible definition of fair to force me to give away the > > thing I need/use to survive? > > > > The answer here is simple: it is free World (hm, almost). Don't do what > you feel is not fair with respect to you. If you [partly] use GNU > licensed code, you will have to release whatever uses it written by you > under the same GNU license. > Thanks for summing the reasons not to use GPL (and use BSD). GPL is designed specifically to screw small developers (the very people it claims to be protecting). Where is BSD is designed to allow the balance between open and closed source that the developer is most comfortable with. Like I said in an other post I tend to release any general purpose (non-client specific) code and libraries open source but for custom work I would be *lucky* if all they did was fire me for open sourcing my work for them and if I was not so lucky sue me for breaking the NDA I usually are required to sign to even know what their project is. The reason is most people who pay for custom software consider the functionality the software provides to be a major competitive advantage (unless they are a Fortune 500, university or government agency). For example the remote cardiac monitoring system we made for on client is what allows them to be one of the few non-equipment vendors that offers remote cardiac testing/monitoring including having a cardiologist (not some AI) write a full report on the results. > If you don't want to, but still need to use/incorporate into your code > somebody's else, you can use code released under open source licenses > that allow to keep derived code closed source (BSD and Apache licenses > come to mind). See above. > Another alternative, get yourself hired by company, which > creates closed source products and which likely will own everything you > create. You will get your dough for programming. How fair _that_ is you > will discover when you leave the company and will not be able you re-use > the code you created being in that company for anything else. > I have worked for companies under this arrangement and the BSD license (along with FreeBSD) is one the main reasons I was able to break free of it. This not possible if you link against GPL code and thus FreeBSD (base system) has been very wise to avoid GPL code as much as possible and when it does makes sure it is compatible with commercial uses. > There always are choices. I was a programmed once, but now I'm humble > sysadmin, but no, not because of software licensing affecting my life. > This is something I do better these days. > I went the opposite direction and have nothing but respect and gratitude for people who are able to do open source without hurting their wallets but as a small 2 person team we don't have that luxury for about 60% of our code (the other 40% falls into the area that we have no problem making open source). From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 20:09:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A042C76C9 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:09:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-ot1-x342.google.com (mail-ot1-x342.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::342]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493nH01k8Hz4bYw for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:08:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-ot1-x342.google.com with SMTP id k21so2486642otl.5 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:08:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YEITAP+UOoaDH/yuWiLIq4V7pGJ10BJPiO5WD0ZXWI4=; b=NAb561IFeTzr63emkPedWT4Q9ioNL0k2FoZMsIgJWRQuX/i3JSkyciFhe3gxIj44aj ERZ9CK3KAWag3T/FF1J6IcPBBEbU532lFZuKPse7KZpEMLo/PKd8jtQsWat8/g+Gs3pi QuAxjMDWSwv8Rb0fJ/Pr1LOpwby71cOBFsRd339EniRxLO3e2Tj96HUTTPgiVGvm8gRE dplniwUVCajpq7UA32gabGUzgIxx6msQAfoLCMjafXtfHGMwk3w3FQJEDT7m+4BI1lcX cRznh00RxeFuNlc/fG6jj3jfpIb/YiM/uILAMLJDd1Gbb3bv0NE9IZ4z1qxnI1UUuHpr Hv3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YEITAP+UOoaDH/yuWiLIq4V7pGJ10BJPiO5WD0ZXWI4=; b=HSmXhlE412guGrmcHTIzVEHFsV40FvBvn4OkGhJGftVGt2vz1Cb7/1QVntvx1DhDay DRvfaA6lRqMACnh7UXxFOiuObb7r/9qltNldmV1wJnxQ8SNiGk+RwtFaHpsMJW5a+rzZ RPgof6SnKjat8P/402A+8pLkxhYX1DOvOv5V4RsaPtIvYY/sYMXeZbQOeLWPW60Nyc3C Ka8HmB6/fH9QXMv28DkcjAvgyJheF6QKHBobSjcjh9h0tuQAkS066piU6heDlRf0bWnV 4azatEv8IkbjJZYj2LekvKzVGDovLJv9SdYPPtfNhx99QIfHKx/HXOv7DPLB+6uJJwcb 6X/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYJOkAsIXbv70VZw7do3mPJPQFGTdFiG+dRV6whpEcICqk7ZeIw vMt55IxUST8+7ztJvB1hzW+RXQ4bCB8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIguU00oCOP7oUI6jleHP+hNHmNWbUvhOxpvHfUF3wavgv0nCYPeYB1MuSd+76TGaqH9kgIqw== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3b7:: with SMTP id f52mr519277otf.4.1587154138630; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-f46.google.com (mail-ot1-f46.google.com. [209.85.210.46]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p5sm1996975oib.25.2020.04.17.13.08.57 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f46.google.com with SMTP id j26so2504600ots.0 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:08:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7ca:: with SMTP id 68mr452096oto.267.1587154136560; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:08:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <20200417171839.4538036d626667f168936c7f@sohara.org> <423845A3-98EA-4F84-92F4-DD1DD26A8DFB@glasgow.ac.uk> <20200417195133.6b141c4aa8c0b402a8fdb72f@sohara.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 22:08:28 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Kurt Hackenberg Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Norman Gray Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493nH01k8Hz4bYw X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=NAb561IF; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::342) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-0.08)[ip: (0.42), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:09:01 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:30 PM Kurt Hackenberg wrote: > On 2020-04-17 14:51, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > >>> If the OP wants FreeBSD running on a microkernel then surely > >>> Darwin is where they should start looking - mostly FreeBSD running on > >>> Mach which > >>> is a bona-fide message passing microkernel. > >> > >> It's a tangent to this thread, but: can you point to anything which > >> discusses this in more detail? > > The horses mouth: > > > Also: > > > From that last one: > "XNU is a hybrid kernel, containing features of both monolithic kernels > and microkernels, attempting to make the best use of both technologies, > such as the message passing ability of microkernels enabling greater > modularity and larger portions of the OS to benefit from memory > protection, and retaining the speed of monolithic kernels for some > critical tasks." Whoah, I was kidding - how anyone can create their own dream OS in three simple steps during a weekend time - but it looks like I have re-invented XNU by accident :-P :-) :-) :-) Very nice references / reads thank you! :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 20:34:49 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF6E2A91F6 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:34:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493nrm1111z4gKc for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id r25so3224225oij.4 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:34:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=75rvCXGHmPrIsDKyJAoHayPpu3Umi3pgAhBhmC4veNA=; b=gzaSeT90CxmeVHC13WcWmapfGJhw58YvLQ+v2sXQ7H0KYJbKWt6isH0wWW3KjKdj9Q v6+tWPRjgr92I335PYRRqX1cKqR9lYuGgpsk1dXrX6BkFABQXyV8guQ00dcCNZ/s3cI5 Vk09CFvQrakKY/1D7AMjxN3i6I5MAWruJfpCefGSOZvcYMYNG0I1P2jHIaIPCmyBMHTT xmYs18waik81IJiBsbZURG3EP1RKBD9++AxXkAFKSiMpkVJpOGymxyPLLS9bb+WZAShN Y5HEW7dtB3+Bp10OFmgjKCV7ZsVj7e5JXqdDyWjKEMM3rZyJB/sOZwt49+MVIbvbMzbz TbAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=75rvCXGHmPrIsDKyJAoHayPpu3Umi3pgAhBhmC4veNA=; b=cqPdMWjKkrUa2Exs//9Uso7SRnfs3rLoAMXFRQNf6D0vbTQYYkf9pGK7QqXxLa7N3z PaE6pC/T67BCdjL05c9lsamOk9sAx0c+w7E175oFYphsxMs9QrWU1cnHcdwdZQhnKvH1 uXePm83CEu3HPhy20fa/PIqlQ2u7BmJ73ZxkhDVEeM8/BQgIdTmDGuXIbJxOjhVKmViH JeyDlnRCom8J7BSKhp4SbFkrHOW6j5otIKg2fAQ2mKctslV3MTFL3/gRgA/aJt2yXuyG HcK8dPcuEfZ0YR4+EECJ1L5MlJpE2D0f4RR42iJeHBBQonttNYd2uT+Qm3skLihzUmQX xwQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pub/soUGuynpNJEfUtoqVFzxfsLUC3og5bRvIkNOLjIvbHHeWZUs coa11HXaVUq6Jv4ccdHOWG2r8z/fBPE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKVbftLugKFyD3kJchSwgewbbDnWhEP0IwCW5WQTMg3sh+Of7DIyizOsvNLjlhTsnx4tDn+mg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:3d4:: with SMTP id o20mr3291749oie.47.1587155686437; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f178.google.com (mail-oi1-f178.google.com. [209.85.167.178]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e16sm2132182otp.20.2020.04.17.13.34.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f178.google.com with SMTP id t199so3202800oif.7; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:34:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:485:: with SMTP id z5mr3377943oid.78.1587155685296; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:34:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 22:34:16 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Wayland on FreeBSD To: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493nrm1111z4gKc X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=gzaSeT90; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::234) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.25 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.95)[ip: (-8.95), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:34:49 -0000 Hello world :-) Time to move from X11 to Wayland :-) Anyone using Wayland with success already? I would like to use Enlightenment (0.23.1) + Wayland. The WiKi for Wayland on FreeBSD seems a bit out of date (2018). How can I modify it with my discoveries? :-) https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/Wayland Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Apr 17 21:53:11 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47F32ACDD1 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:53:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from holgerdanske.com (holgerdanske.com [184.105.128.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "holgerdanske.com", Issuer "holgerdanske.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493qbB4hQDz3Lbf for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:53:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dpchrist@holgerdanske.com) Received: from 99.100.19.101 ([99.100.19.101]) by holgerdanske.com with ESMTPSA (ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:TLSv1.2:Kx=ECDH:Au=RSA:Enc=AESGCM(128):Mac=AEAD) (SMTP-AUTH username dpchrist@holgerdanske.com, mechanism PLAIN) for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:53:00 -0700 Subject: Re: iscsi + restoring zfs snapshot To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <0ead1643-0fa3-3a89-2d2b-9086a46af6f6@osfux.nl> <0027cc2b-124f-bef3-f1aa-5c50a1c819b1@osfux.nl> From: David Christensen Message-ID: <7eb27fff-7fa8-48f1-c17b-d412300ed7e5@holgerdanske.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:53:00 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0027cc2b-124f-bef3-f1aa-5c50a1c819b1@osfux.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493qbB4hQDz3Lbf X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dpchrist@holgerdanske.com has no SPF policy when checking 184.105.128.27) smtp.mailfrom=dpchrist@holgerdanske.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.54 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.84)[-0.840,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.64)[ipnet: 184.104.0.0/15(0.43), asn: 6939(-3.60), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.959,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[holgerdanske.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[27.128.105.184.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6939, ipnet:184.104.0.0/15, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 21:53:11 -0000 On 2020-04-17 06:06, Ruben via freebsd-questions wrote: > Hi, > > Still having trouble understanding this... > > Any pointers? > > Regards, > > Ruben > > On 4/12/20 11:10 AM, Ruben via freebsd-questions wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have a couple of linux clients that mount an iscsi target provided >> by a zfs filesystem on a FreeBSD host. Looking below, I infer that you created the pool with: # zfs create -V 30g data/Docker/torrent >> Yesterday I messed things up and I am trying to restore a snapshot to >> revert the changes. >> >> I seem to be able to do so, but since the result is somewhat >> unexepected I'm probably going the wrong way about it.  The strange >> thing is that the snapshot restored from 2 weeks ago contains changes >> from last night :S See my comments "It is unclear ...", below. >> This is the FS: I assume you mean "volume". >> zfs get all data/Docker/torrent >> NAME                 PROPERTY VALUE                  SOURCE >> data/Docker/torrent  type volume                 - >> data/Docker/torrent  creation              Sun Dec  1 21:04 2019  - >> data/Docker/torrent  used 56.8G                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  available 93.0G                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  referenced 19.7G                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  compressratio 1.00x                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  reservation none                   default >> data/Docker/torrent  volsize 30G                    local >> data/Docker/torrent  volblocksize 8K                     default >> data/Docker/torrent  checksum on                     default >> data/Docker/torrent  compression off                    default >> data/Docker/torrent  readonly off                    default >> data/Docker/torrent  createtxg 22810439               - >> data/Docker/torrent  copies 1                      default >> data/Docker/torrent  refreservation 30.9G                  local >> data/Docker/torrent  guid 15050313927458195147   - >> data/Docker/torrent  primarycache all                    default >> data/Docker/torrent  secondarycache all                    default >> data/Docker/torrent  usedbysnapshots 6.12G                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  usedbydataset 19.7G                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  usedbychildren 0                      - >> data/Docker/torrent  usedbyrefreservation 30.9G                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  logbias latency                default >> data/Docker/torrent  dedup off                    default >> data/Docker/torrent mlslabel                                     - >> data/Docker/torrent  sync standard               default >> data/Docker/torrent  refcompressratio 1.00x                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  written 17.1K                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  logicalused 12.1G                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  logicalreferenced 9.25G                  - >> data/Docker/torrent  volmode dev                    local >> data/Docker/torrent  snapshot_limit none                   default >> data/Docker/torrent  snapshot_count none                   default >> data/Docker/torrent  redundant_metadata all                    default That looks okay. I find the output of 'zfs get all ...' easier to read if I pipe the output to sort(1). >> These are its snapshots: >> >> zfs list -t snapshot -r data/Docker/torrent >> NAME                                           USED  AVAIL REFER >> MOUNTPOINT >> data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-15_09.05.00--90d   677M      - 6.30G  - >> data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-22_09.05.00--90d   783M      - 6.57G  - >> data/Docker/torrent@2020-02-29_09.05.00--90d   798M      - 6.65G  - >> data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-07_09.05.00--90d   693M      - 8.71G  - >> data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-14_09.05.00--90d   684M      - 11.2G  - >> data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-21_09.05.00--90d   611M      - 13.9G  - >> data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-28_09.05.00--90d   864M      - 18.1G  - >> data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d  17.1K      - 19.7G  - >> [root@gneisenau:/usr/home/fux]# That looks okay. >> This is my restore attempt: >> >> zfs send data/Docker/torrent@2020-03-14_09.05.00--90d | zfs receive >> data/restoredfromsnapshot I normally do full replication. >> If I unmount the FS from the client, and export this new FS instead as: >> >>      lun 3 { >>          path /dev/zvol/data/restoredfromsnapshot >>          size 30G >>      } I assume the above is in /etc/ctl.conf. >> , restart ctld,  mount that on the same linux client (but with the >> "ro" option): >> >> /dev/sdd on /mnt/restored_data type ext4 (ro,noatime,stripe=256,_netdev) >> >> it contains : >> >> root@torrent:/mnt/restored_data# ls -laht >> total 44K >> drwxr-xr-x  5 root root 4.0K Apr 12 10:23 .. >> drwx--x--x 14 root root 4.0K Apr 11 21:06 docker >> drwxrwxr-x  8 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 . >> drwxr-xr-x  3 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 deluge_config >> drwxr-xr-x  3 root root 4.0K Apr 11 20:57 docker_volumes >> drwxr-xr-x  2 root root 4.0K May 21  2019 downloads >> drwxr-xr-x  2 root root 4.0K May 21  2019 sickrage >> drwx------  2 root root  16K May 21  2019 lost+found >> root@torrent:/mnt/restored_data# >> >> changes from way after 2020-03-14 , including those from last night . >> >> Huh? I'm using zfSnap for creating the snapshots, like this: >> >> /usr/local/sbin/zfSnap -s -z -a 90d -r data/Docker >> >> My first attempt to rollback yesterday's changes involved using the >> rollback option ( zfs rollback -r >> data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d ) but that did not work >> either (yesterday's changes were not reverted). It is unclear if your steps were complete or in a proper order. Services must be stopped before the restore and re-started after the restore. I do not see any use of the ZFS "readonly" property. I see verification at the very end, but not verification immediately after the restore. I would proceed as follows: 1. Disconnect, stop, etc., all services on FreeBSD and Linux that access the volume. 2. Destroy the failed restore volume. 3. Enable the ZFS "readonly" property on the volume. 4. Scrub the pool containing the volume. 5. Do a ZFS rollback on the volume, as before: # zfs rollback -r data/Docker/torrent@2020-04-04_09.05.00--90d 6. Figure out how to mount the live volume read-only and how to mount the snapshot (which will be read-only by definition). Verify they are identical with cmp(1). 7. Disable the ZFS "readonly" property on the volume. 8. Enable services, as required, on FreeBSD. 9. Mount the volume on Linux. Run fsck(8). 10. Enable services on Linux. David From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 00:06:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04162B02A5 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 00:06:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493tXm30N8z42DT for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 00:06:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from cds220.dcs.int.inet ([10.0.153.144]) by shaw.ca with ESMTP id Paztj1SoQ62brPazujEpES; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:06:14 -0600 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1587168374; bh=uEeKpu23rvnAIYOV8RtidVR10VK6rUyeHejJ8lVIlEw=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=SEPeiBHpxHWZluUab4wh7AAErs31u36WRVkxiQeGOaajhNUxBpTTZYN23JSbhFiez QDqls2wGxRLB7IJGq+gV0h5IasTgg3ld4eztNSbW0gq0n7x5VNUVZAuaQhokiHoezW 6xpjrmkCjQ0l4mfi2mtc6ULm3+U8BCDfAQN4EMnj6o/Gq9YdQ8JxkXwdR+6w5u3UB0 TQXLfxhiCX8tVZoXt6BFtDyiGn2ydYeLETkazT7X56R9cQw2FV14pAzotGFknyVDoF ab2raL9lCVTjzOeDZ9YXaa3UUdmUDdVvmRxzsw7l1KJs7vYH0RRbbNMxPLrqL1ZCGz wxGnXkRuB+Vfw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1587168374; bh=uEeKpu23rvnAIYOV8RtidVR10VK6rUyeHejJ8lVIlEw=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=SEPeiBHpxHWZluUab4wh7AAErs31u36WRVkxiQeGOaajhNUxBpTTZYN23JSbhFiez QDqls2wGxRLB7IJGq+gV0h5IasTgg3ld4eztNSbW0gq0n7x5VNUVZAuaQhokiHoezW 6xpjrmkCjQ0l4mfi2mtc6ULm3+U8BCDfAQN4EMnj6o/Gq9YdQ8JxkXwdR+6w5u3UB0 TQXLfxhiCX8tVZoXt6BFtDyiGn2ydYeLETkazT7X56R9cQw2FV14pAzotGFknyVDoF ab2raL9lCVTjzOeDZ9YXaa3UUdmUDdVvmRxzsw7l1KJs7vYH0RRbbNMxPLrqL1ZCGz wxGnXkRuB+Vfw== X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=LKf9vKe9 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=YjOmSjUxhsfmstj0eziGpw==:117 a=FKkrIqjQGGEA:10 a=on0NmgUIp3IA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=5mcg790sAAAA:8 a=m4Zl5SzZAZKJC3fGeqwA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=7Ddi8RmdbTIA:10 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=uQeDYW1NI25gHNlrW_eK:22 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:06:13 -0600 (MDT) From: Dale Scott To: Polytropon Cc: Aryeh Friedman , Paul Pathiakis , freebsd-questions Message-ID: <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: [162.223.103.50, 162.223.103.50] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.15_GA_3899 (ZimbraWebClient - GC80 (Win)/8.8.15_GA_3895) Thread-Topic: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Thread-Index: u4trQaiRa9wKYvC7almomXcJY/deDQ== X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfH7iFk+4fUW5964jD0OfeNk902mdUeXNxzBxA5qynSyABBPhk+qxxe0pdHPcvsEce/wwPasw+Psh9bUQ48tDR1Ecu5UJwIPrT2+2/N5iFgV5YM++ttyl hJKWGMh2MAZk5ex8E/1zu7bwJDJi/FY0xc8ejWnNyuydGj87ijhUwkoM0RFyyKgILlwRPrSUbCpermd48XraTeRvYHqrCRs2nZGG3U78wRmY50o3KDK5kUlJ 9c7c9G3GDZxavGH9NPsR4dTq5aRLBNmpy0J3bkcqatw= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493tXm30N8z42DT X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=SEPeiBHp; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=SEPeiBHp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=shaw.ca; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dalescott@shaw.ca designates 64.59.134.9 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dalescott@shaw.ca X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.09 / 15.00]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[9.134.59.64.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:64.59.134.0/25]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[shaw.ca:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[shaw.ca,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[9.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[shaw.ca.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.969,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[shaw.ca:s=s20180605]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; URIBL_PBL(0.01)[dalescott.net]; IP_SCORE(-2.53)[ip: (-6.73), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.27), asn: 6327(-2.55), country: CA(-0.09)]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 00:06:18 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Polytropon" > To: "Aryeh Friedman" > Cc: "Paul Pathiakis" , "freebsd-questions" > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 1:30:25 PM > Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architectur= e ... > The _choice_ of licensing terms is very important to a programmer. IANAL but... ;-) I think of "open-source" as a legal framework for a community to share soft= ware development by pooling their resources. The license protect the invest= ment the participants make (e.g. the time spent coding, testing, writing bu= g reports, writing user manuals, supporting other members of the community,= etc.), and also gives protection from an actor acting in bad faith. When a= company (a single legal entity) develops software, regardless of whether t= he programmer is a full-time employee or a contractor, the code generally b= elongs to the company. There simply is no "my code", it is "their code" and= I relinquished my rights to it in return for compensation. The developer d= oes not have the right to re-use a single character for any reason (which i= s different from it not being worth the effort to penalize an infraction). = Of course, developers own the knowledge in their heads that enabled them to= write the code, and can use that knowledge to write new code (although oth= er contractual restrictions may be in force, such as a non-competition or n= on-disclosure agreement). A single developer providing software under an open source license is for t= he most part simply being altruistic and helping their fellow developers by= providing tutorials, examples and proof-of-concepts for projects consisten= t with a single developer. The developer's personal beliefs will determine = what license is appropriate - but generally either "permissive" (e.g. BSD) = or "copyleft" (e.g. GPL). A permissive license might be appropriate if the = goal is to provide benefit to as many people as possible with minimum const= raints (a permissive license typically only imposes keeping the original li= cense and copyright notice, and prevents being sued for errors or not being= fit for use). However, if you believe someone who modifies your code has an obligation to= share in kind, then imposing this through a copyleft license will likely b= e appropriate. Note though that the GPL only requires source to be shared w= ith those who receive the software in non-source form, which may not includ= e the original developer! Also note that payment is irrelevant so far as th= e license is concerned. For example, the GPL does not prevent me from "sell= ing" a customized version of ERPNext (an enterprise ERP application license= d using the GPL), so long as I distribute the source for my changes to thos= e who I have provided my modified version to. (I mean "selling" in concept = as I would not own the code, but would be able to charge for customization = services). The license becomes more significant for projects with multiple developers,= projects that incorporate open-source software to expedite development, an= d companies who use the software. Vague ownership of the code or vague allo= wed use creates risks for the entire community. What if two developers work= together for a year to create a software application but then part ways. W= ho owns the rights to the codebase? Do the developers share ownership joint= ly or individually? Can one developer continue development of the software = on their own if the other developer doesn't want them to? Does each develop= er have rights only to the characters they typed? What are the risks to a c= ompany if the project cannot show they have a legal right to offer the soft= ware (which could be the result of including GPL code in a BSD project, or = re-using code created under contract to an employer)? What are the risks if= the company uses the software to create their own product? What if the sof= tware is an enterprise ERP, CRM or FRACAS system and the company uses it to= run their business! A company that proactively protects shareholders from = risky legal situations would have to just walk away..... Licensing itself isn't complicated, it's all the other details.... ;-) ---=20 Dale Scott=20 Engineering and NPI Leader=20 Web: www.dalescott.net=20 Email: dale@dalescott.net=20 From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 00:50:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421052B1162 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 00:50:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd42.google.com (mail-io1-xd42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d42]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493vWf4q3Sz44ws for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 00:50:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd42.google.com with SMTP id o127so4431587iof.0 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:50:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=L5b/MREA45ChCIjuyz4Ajji7iaP7wNUbceIjfHE/9Ww=; b=QfqOUyoIl6U+ZqekC/fcEEL0Mxp0TgCvYQuvOaGneghTU3Mp1MHA6rVqj6CZQ/+y0T MTFZxPaowQVFMz/9Xv+ZRsHSfmLBPYyhi4tOZGj3vKxXIRjTZwogGQK1nGmLP3Nvfb05 E/8DPOGGYvfRrdBcF3aZZx4WnYYYJFDQetR/XIX2eB7h06mxXB0YT/lA0lC/aJ3UfDPK 1SLoj+QrNj5uvvyfVoXAID0GwSIUcqBhu8oCo4LEXF7ISLROAt4if2Gtp1b6Eg8K2buo T42WeQ57eNwlxb1N1RylAK0GN5sF+hepp1jM8RQaZzJ8WZgnEBE8uo/pepR2+6eU/C17 IRjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=L5b/MREA45ChCIjuyz4Ajji7iaP7wNUbceIjfHE/9Ww=; b=n5UmQ46J6dnWwFJnNDAGoPxpVdh4DX0qo4OAbnpKbH1QcxQooCrHwGh+z8G1XRpJHK 5WEHDekFFwUp8yQ5Ni9q4F9xxZdK6dRjuG7Yik1/MBhma5whpOIO1gDGtWlUlsK2804+ tQDYIfNmsPNk1VEwRRp4lCOeT33DC6wssq92zz0O9UpWrm1W5ZpF4XwDs/56r8f9dREN GpsmXHYTUDD1wQ7YDwICK1tkiZsrOp5XVZiUlA6E/r369Q0q6ocyIwCKNxzIZu78JW5b e1QfmggsNs62ZnzDuGPmGog1rnbS5/wLbQqpqaNJ5QHt7r63+uzSBkEDFAt0izC2FyCu WkVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuavewuSkbJVyZmpYIzLFbEAtihLvnF0RxdRTMfy66R+2mh6NXQ0 shKVtFOqCTie/zzUIWnTjX1UaC20s86IFBF9MAM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLuiJw/n/OkcoxIGGL3oCDboKW3nj33nraupRgpNBkpFai5zG6PH/BTSNCyxmyam8jp1zyvKai2gEHNVDIZ18A= X-Received: by 2002:a02:ac1:: with SMTP id 184mr5981880jaw.138.1587171021622; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:50:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Dale Scott Cc: Polytropon , Paul Pathiakis , freebsd-questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493vWf4q3Sz44ws X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=QfqOUyoI; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d42 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.95 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.22), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.97)[-0.974,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.982,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; URIBL_PBL(0.01)[dalescott.net]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.4.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 00:50:24 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:06 PM Dale Scott wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Polytropon" > > To: "Aryeh Friedman" > > Cc: "Paul Pathiakis" , "freebsd-questions" < > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> > > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 1:30:25 PM > > Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel > architecture > ... > > The _choice_ of licensing terms is very important to a programmer. > > IANAL but... ;-) > > I think of "open-source" as a legal framework for a community to share > software development by pooling their resources. The license protect the > investment the participants make (e.g. the time spent coding, testing, > writing bug reports, writing user manuals, supporting other members of the > community, etc.), and also gives protection from an actor acting in bad > faith. When a company (a single legal entity) develops software, regardless > of whether the programmer is a full-time employee or a contractor, the code > generally belongs to the company. There simply is no "my code", it is > "their code" and I relinquished my rights to it in return for compensation. > The developer does not have the right to re-use a single character for any > reason (which is different from it not being worth the effort to penalize > an infraction). Of course, developers own the knowledge in their heads that > enabled them to write the code, and can use that knowledge to write new > code (although other contractual restrictions may be in force, such as a > non-competition or non-disclosure agreement). > That is why most developers are always looking for a hybrid solution. BSD is the only license that allows that cleanly. Most companies are more then willing to go along with this to some extent since it is a huge cost/time savings. > A single developer providing software under an open source license is for > the most part simply being altruistic and helping their fellow developers > by providing tutorials, examples and proof-of-concepts for projects > consistent with a single developer. The developer's personal beliefs will > determine what license is appropriate - but generally either "permissive" > (e.g. BSD) or "copyleft" (e.g. GPL). It has nothing to do with personal beliefs unless you are lucky enough to so situated you don't need money. But if you have to pay your own way anything that makes it hard or impossible to charge for the work (see below) is an immediate non-starter. > A permissive license might be appropriate if the goal is to provide > benefit to as many people as possible with minimum constraints (a > permissive license typically only imposes keeping the original license and > copyright notice, and prevents being sued for errors or not being fit for > use). > The Court has consistently held that such blanket waivers of liability are null and void if any consideration (money) trades hands. So the minute I sell a piece of software regardless of its license I am liable for any misuse or damages that I would customary be liable for under a normal commercial license of work for hire contract. Thus the only way to avoid such liability is specifically list the applications which the code is suitable for and say no use outside of those applications is allowed. Both BSD and GPL do not allow that and by clauses 5 and 6 of the OSD ( https://opensource.org/osd-annotated) such restrictions are by definition not open source. > However, if you believe someone who modifies your code has an obligation > to share in kind, then imposing this through a copyleft license will likely > be appropriate. Note though that the GPL only requires source to be shared > with those who receive the software in non-source form, which may not > include the original developer! Also note that payment is irrelevant so far > as the license is concerned. For example, the GPL does not prevent me from > "selling" a customized version of ERPNext (an enterprise ERP application > licensed using the GPL), so long as I distribute the source for my changes > to those who I have provided my modified version to. (I mean "selling" in > concept as I would not own the code, but would be able to charge for > customization services). > And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes to make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. What stops the person I give the source to from selling it for less (which makes sense because they have none of the up front costs of developing it in the first place) and defeating the very reason why I sold it in the first place (to make a living). This is nothing more then legalized reverse Robin Hood (steal from those least able to defend their rights [aka the poor] and give it to those who are most able to defend rights that they don't deserve [aka the rich]). What a wonderful recipe to do what capitalists have always attempted to do which is make huge profits for little or no expense. This is the very scenario that Stallman was protesting when he created the fatally flawed first version of GPL and it is never been cured in revised versions. > > The license becomes more significant for projects with multiple > developers, projects that incorporate open-source software to expedite > development, and companies who use the software. Vague ownership Quite the opposite large projects with a lot of developers can usually do pass the hat style funding just fine and thus are free to pick what ever license they want. Small projects rarely can generate enough donations to make this possible and thus picking a license that forces you to do so is suicidal to the project and the well being of the team. > of the code or vague allowed use creates risks for the entire community. > What if two developers work together for a year to create a software > application but then part ways. Who owns the rights to the codebase? Do the > developers share ownership jointly or individually? Can one developer > continue That is why many teams will have a copyright notice of "copyright XXX YYY and contributors" (yyy is the entity that started the work). For example all my open source code reads "Copyright XXX Friedman-Nixon-Wong Enterprises and Contributors". This allows people to come and go as they please and not lose access to what they have done. > development of the software on their own if the other developer doesn't > want them to? Does each developer have rights only to the characters they > typed? What are the risks to a company if the project cannot show they have > a legal right to offer the software (which could be the result of including > GPL code in a BSD project, or re-using code created under contract to an > employer)? What are the risks if the company uses the software to create > their own product? What if the software is an enterprise ERP, CRM or FRACAS > system and the company uses it to run their business! A company that > proactively protects shareholders from risky legal situations would have to > just walk away..... > If you just add the simple wording "and contributors" none of the problems above are issues. That assumes your using BSD and not GPL (GPL makes almost all the above massive issues). > Licensing itself isn't complicated, it's all the other details.... ;-) > Correct but you're focusing on the wrong details and misreading the ones you do focus on. > > --- > Dale Scott > Engineering and NPI Leader > Web: www.dalescott.net > Email: dale@dalescott.net > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 03:45:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE162B8107 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 03:45:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ngor@antonovs.family) Received: from mail.antonovs.family (mail.antonovs.family [100.25.240.195]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.antonovs.family", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 493zPG3dl5z4MJM for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 03:45:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ngor@antonovs.family) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=antonovs.family; s=20200215; t=1587181498; h=from:from:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=SipTodk5/SR5wKHOV2cNJn0yhw2cLz9nI3q02UsYVmA=; b=iOsWVvwEHAN70MOUhJ5zAW59cliI7I7anwjBcs93dShv3DXiVdvr0XBiYB5MSiaPNMV9dM LqS9jjEXFWVIIoVybO3vpHepubYnxtJ8ngX03BXcezru1+g9LS7CTliwWs+vg9gjkrtZFH wy5EwynhIjVikyQqa9CqjspDAfZGY5Q= Received: by mail.antonovs.family (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id d42f4911 (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO) for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 03:44:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Ihor Antonov To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: ihor@antonovs.family Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:44:56 -0700 Message-ID: <19214139.lkKKEJL0j7@amos> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493zPG3dl5z4MJM X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=antonovs.family header.s=20200215 header.b=iOsWVvwE; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=antonovs.family; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ngor@antonovs.family designates 100.25.240.195 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ngor@antonovs.family X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.31 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[antonovs.family:s=20200215]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[ihor@antonovs.family]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; REPLYTO_DOM_EQ_FROM_DOM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[antonovs.family:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[antonovs.family,none]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-3.31)[ip: (-9.08), ipnet: 100.24.0.0/13(-4.41), asn: 14618(-3.02), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; CTE_CASE(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14618, ipnet:100.24.0.0/13, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 03:45:07 -0000 On Friday, 17 April 2020 13:34:16 PDT Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > Hello world :-) Hello > Time to move from X11 to Wayland :-) Well, > Anyone using Wayland with success already? Hi, I had some success in running sway (i3 drop-in replacement) Although some fixes were required as it was not working out of the box. LMK if you are going to update the wiki - I can share my notes on setting up sway. > I would like to use Enlightenment (0.23.1) + Wayland. > > The WiKi for Wayland on FreeBSD seems a bit out of date (2018). How > can I modify it with my discoveries? :-) > > https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/Wayland > > Best regards :-) > Tomek From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 04:57:32 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3242BB4F7 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 04:57:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49410q3p4xz4TdQ for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 04:57:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dalescott@shaw.ca) Received: from cds220.dcs.int.inet ([10.0.153.144]) by shaw.ca with ESMTP id PfXkj33Oa62brPfXljFXgL; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 22:57:30 -0600 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=shaw.ca; s=s20180605; t=1587185850; bh=FHdZHKtWDusJH83MnH/HXaKaA5VsGEYnH7dfBVBHdR0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject; b=P1KGpFZwN3/MKux3HkYg85A8IVnaHegSoDHfbJkBxdNBL0i/X+C4bi38Zxq02Bo9+ GKtNJTisfEP2lER1i4g9BVVsU8BJMQMH6eFjHo9FG7z+VKcsrDdl4tssW9wcg/2NJV F4uv5sT9oigcejxGKbVg3qcP+/eyabY4PAhzWyVQXrA4FvxDi1KIkHEt6sM7DH/cO2 IEUvG5gWtXmNhDtRrbEePzMUOt8jvkS4fKqN99/OHUsnJ0bM+qIY1kyrkUGi2dT1+A u8vglzzAc5PxMakKIO0VN5qz5SH1pIAqauqppxODpz5RLOdngRB7QwSA+4AVUPA2sQ E25U79oiHj71g== X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=LKf9vKe9 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=YjOmSjUxhsfmstj0eziGpw==:117 a=FKkrIqjQGGEA:10 a=RDteU5_PNoYA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=_Dj-zB-qAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=93Ubh6UdAAAA:8 a=5kiUdgjR2GdsvZ0XnYgA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=riVenqLD6yXbrQ6IE5sA:9 a=Ae_Q1u0T5Rd7T42p:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=c-cOe7UV8MviEfHuAVEQ:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=q-6THwuxr82FYj4XiUVi:22 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 22:57:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Dale Scott To: Aryeh Friedman Cc: freebsd-questions Message-ID: <1828028304.121037446.1587185848845.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [174.0.43.39, 174.0.43.39] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.15_GA_3899 (ZimbraWebClient - GC80 (Linux)/8.8.15_GA_3895) Thread-Topic: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Thread-Index: /WwiNLtY+rRldQuELJ1uB1cEgj+jUQ== X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDXcvRIptwk+uxrGe82iAI9ueIIPfRES8yZZD86ZROg/YV0UIBzHKbLWL6iHf9b4gvmNDm4rmKrNk0oYP4cMm9CBE/jSi8+sMhzvCDQ8Dqsx7l7x/Zen qeReqiCmdi2A+LWYY/wRaxHCQSjCCI9NBKSbROK++G+wPKt7lC+//pn/Da8UgHWrAa4Ry56fswWxvumP/QjXSE3QV8RaynQygTsidQ7sNFlpMKut+oANfZGz X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49410q3p4xz4TdQ X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=shaw.ca header.s=s20180605 header.b=P1KGpFZw; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=shaw.ca; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of dalescott@shaw.ca designates 64.59.134.12 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dalescott@shaw.ca X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.63 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[shaw.ca:s=s20180605]; HAS_XOIP(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(0.00)[12.134.59.64.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.18]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:64.59.134.0/25]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[shaw.ca:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[shaw.ca,none]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.53)[ip: (-6.75), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.27), asn: 6327(-2.56), country: CA(-0.09)]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[shaw.ca.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 04:57:32 -0000 > From: "Aryeh Friedman" > To: "Dale Scott" > Cc: "Polytropon" , "Paul Pathiakis" , > "freebsd-questions" > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 6:50:09 PM > Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture > ...anything that makes it hard or impossible to charge for the work (see below) > is an immediate non-starter. It's also generally not legal to profit from committing a crime. > ...clauses 5 and 6 of the OSD ( [ https://opensource.org/osd-annotated | > https://opensource.org/osd-annotated ] ) such restrictions are by definition > not open source. If you say so, but the OSI is only an industry association and the OSD only their opinion. > Correct but you're focusing on the wrong details and misreading the ones you do > focus on. Wouldn't that depend on what's important to me? P.S. there seems to be something wrong with the Petitecloud source tarball download. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 05:42:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC832BCB28 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:42:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49420W361kz4XTM for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:42:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id i3so4816504ioo.13 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 22:42:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yVjdCRjo1QJV4WeEwlzyeHnVxn/bqQxfApy6xIfkFwI=; b=ov78VA+IxKxwExT1myJ7qxPgVLGmuKEL6SrwCG1dOanq8GTcYh3yGWsWMZTztRVIY1 05dbvw1jac/3bt00lHDELdNYuzIVPqs263M0+xzSJWLMlohZgQ3NPsiJE/2EkfVN4NVe 6Um+L1f8Gyz2WgnUUbWC7LFS2+b4yKVySpfUyPOdOcj/dBSeQZEmzU3MMhlWf4ULrYd+ d4AnRD0eEGcKpUNE9I9t5v7cWpqQM5iIEznW3+n9AdDQHEUTZ+h4sAnuEHDLM3UanpEq /mZtY+BWEJW8MntI7ueO8c20QMdCdZrWjtJ3z4CoAvgUQHDPzTRd2X89yMPaqf9/f4Q5 h72Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yVjdCRjo1QJV4WeEwlzyeHnVxn/bqQxfApy6xIfkFwI=; b=QtBbG62rKAvcJf8Xn/LLzfwWpJk3th78vQKzlJmUBIDnm0d7iLCkIXUhhQTLn6dDxs t2MgItuLiOkhR727SZ/cpiAUAQcQErd+wID0JXcWyBhTSYva7rilE1QItkhKhaWyjsNw wEAIbymaH6H5ooNwQ2vjPADQtLjhOTQ3OjXmB5OqP/DM2Q95spYk00Isb5j4Czth3bUI FTpQvH5diyjXy1gbdXs14Xc86sAsXs7ttSf/ZjDP79Ur70JpzZOStJdUhaZwxC2NEUXR STOJ0rNGAVMqytdAqDdjiP9WSbpwoXKgkgztnOsdyw2KZ0DL6r+0WoA6RT7x2waYN4h9 LNvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYpLSfbuCkE1AwB4d5pdce9jW5eGmM2nmi1iwSiYxE4GxRHqOgL JY0rpB/1WSCHBQonYGkEKQvWi5CEfxNT8qHfLDYzHRdP X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLuX59bIz5mbHhPF042ZgqxI34knAjPODzx969gjOC4neiCn5LKpZ12oIn+NgmAkYJixosm68XYH6N3STfk7OA= X-Received: by 2002:a02:3341:: with SMTP id k1mr6830270jak.74.1587188537790; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 22:42:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <1828028304.121037446.1587185848845.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> In-Reply-To: <1828028304.121037446.1587185848845.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 01:42:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Dale Scott Cc: freebsd-questions X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 49420W361kz4XTM X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=ov78VA+I; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.3.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-5.47), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:42:20 -0000 On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 12:57 AM Dale Scott wrote: > *From: *"Aryeh Friedman" > *To: *"Dale Scott" > *Cc: *"Polytropon" , "Paul Pathiakis" < > pathiaki2@yahoo.com>, "freebsd-questions" > *Sent: *Friday, April 17, 2020 6:50:09 PM > *Subject: *Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel > architecture > > > ...anything that makes it hard or impossible to charge for the work (see > below) is an immediate non-starter. > > It's also generally not legal to profit from committing a crime. > What (possible) crime are you claiming someone is (potentially) profiting from and what is its relevance to this discussion? > ...clauses 5 and 6 of the OSD (https://opensource.org/osd-annotated) such > restrictions are by definition not open source. > > If you say so, but the OSI is only an industry association and the OSD > only their opinion. > It is also the most widely accepted general definition and if we are not willing to agree on an objective definition of what open source is and what it is not then it is quite literally impossible to have this discussion. Note OSD is also the definition that both FSF and FreeBSD point to as the standard to measure against. If you have some other published objective measure you are using please state where to find it. > > Correct but you're focusing on the wrong details and misreading the ones > you do focus on. > > Wouldn't that depend on what's important to me? > What matters is making it so everyone (not just you) can contribute and benefit from stuff people choose to make open source (instead of being overly constrained by the license). Therefore an objective measure/definition of what is allowed and not allowed is needed. But so far from your wording above it is seems you reject the most widely known objective definition. You need to recognize that while the license needs to be one size fits all for legal reasons it also needs to be able to balance the demands of different stakeholders including people who are attempting to actually put food on the table and roof over their head while still making their work as open as possible. > P.S. there seems to be something wrong with the Petitecloud source tarball > download. > > The site has not been updated since 2016 and has decayed for that reason. I am currently working on modernizing PC to handle the newer version of bhyve (the one that can handle external BIOS's) and being updated to handle a newer version of our API library. Despite the code being in quiet a bit of disarray if you tell me where to send it I will send a snapshot of it to you if you request it. Since it is under BSD you're free to do whatever you wish with it. -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 06:36:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C182BE742; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:36:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from mail.daemonic.se (mail.daemonic.se [176.58.89.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4943Bt4jgTz4cG8; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:36:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from cid.daemonic.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4943Br4drWz3lbm; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:36:20 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=daemonic.se; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-language:content-type :content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:date :message-id:from:from:references:subject:subject:received :received; s=20151023; t=1587191640; bh=LCJdlWkrjq3AZ0V9IDBFyQ8u JDAFIJr55AzNx+JqKVI=; b=JU0KEKISvtaDGl7NywD+IENZNwuEeLNNnASJR6wQ tE9wf82AmVdX6zBWHnrnPJRCdCh5oe87iLLbtZrsjJSBpY33rCvxg3kt+ofJTl3h IVwrOhEy/zK78h8PAhMwNWO5Yb7SoTZtElBbi7u/+OpXQ8mC5N4d+/HCFZ/O3X/X gUI= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daemonic.se Received: from mail.daemonic.se ([IPv6:::1]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by cid.daemonic.se (mailscanner.daemonic.se [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10587) with ESMTPS id V8WJK0AA9KBP; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:34:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from garnet.daemonic.se (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:dca9:201:21b9:f28e:5614:8414]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4943880fZ0z3mBr; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:34:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Tomasz CEDRO , Jan Beich Cc: Theron , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> <24c43065-527d-499b-282a-43df2a947a1d@gmail.com> From: Niclas Zeising Message-ID: <4b1e583e-3dd2-2977-913a-63e37a16a9d6@daemonic.se> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:33:59 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4943Bt4jgTz4cG8 X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=daemonic.se header.s=20151023 header.b=JU0KEKIS; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=daemonic.se; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of zeising@daemonic.se designates 176.58.89.161 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=zeising@daemonic.se X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.19 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[daemonic.se:s=20151023]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[daemonic.se:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[daemonic.se,none]; IP_SCORE(-3.69)[ip: (-9.73), ipnet: 176.58.89.0/24(-4.87), asn: 36236(-3.81), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:176.58.89.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:36:24 -0000 On 2020-04-17 21:09, Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:02 PM Jan Beich wrote: >> xf86-video-intel support ends after CoffeeLake. Current version in ports/ >> is more than 1 year old, so maybe try the patch in bug 236003. >> >> Outside of DDX Intel deprecated pre-Broadwell support: >> - beignet is abandoned in favor of compute-runtime (aka NEO) >> - intel-vaapi-driver is maintenance-only in favor of media-driver >> - i965 development slowed down in favor of iris (default since Mesa 20.0.0) > > Thank you Jan! To be honest I just need several monitors to work, web > browser, KiCAD, FreeCAD, Blender, most of my work I do in a > terminal+tmux anyway :-) Nice image quality, 3D acceleration, and > OpenCL would be really nice to have but not a blocker to work (it > would bring efficiency and comfort for sure). For years I was using > simple vesa video driver on my FreeBSD laptop and I could live with > that. I had another machine for multimedia (macOS). Now I am working > only on a FreeBSD laptop, so basic work requirements come first. I am > keeping my fingers for DRM KMS Intel for my laptop (multiple monitors) > and AMDGPU OpenCL for my workstation (GPU computing). Threre is no > reason to invest time into something that is dead already (x11-intel). You should be able to get this with drm-kmod as the kernel driver and the modesetting xorg-server driver, everything except OpenCL, at least. For AMDGPU you might still want to use xf86-video-amdgpu instead of modesetting, if you prefer. Regards -- Niclas From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 07:08:41 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5E52BF52C; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:08:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from mail.daemonic.se (mail.daemonic.se [176.58.89.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4943w9015dz4fFT; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:08:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from zeising+freebsd@daemonic.se) Received: from cid.daemonic.se (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4943w76Qccz3lbm; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:08:39 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=daemonic.se; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-language:content-type :content-type:in-reply-to:mime-version:user-agent:date:date :message-id:from:from:references:subject:subject:received :received; s=20151023; t=1587193584; bh=W5Kdjehvlv7qhlvXL1cd/3gV bsXwbL4d74YAjFWOzPM=; b=ZOgptyWwVeZegJ5/Mx2UXXJ1vXNy2lOfoDD3Zvxv sphMuqInlx4tmSDcwrR9rDNGvlxFhCsgR1NvRnoaUDhqcPZrdIoBDQ8+u3o3RbJS XYREoFKP0wkgo8IbwLejKkqViSs5V9GrZ1M6BXGIwqdzw9vq+NWcvhxL+vd3gugB Avg= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at daemonic.se Received: from mail.daemonic.se ([127.0.0.1]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256) by cid.daemonic.se (mailscanner.daemonic.se [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10587) with ESMTPS id paBMRmgqwbHL; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:06:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from garnet.daemonic.se (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:dca9:201:21b9:f28e:5614:8414]) by mail.daemonic.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4943kq3GMlz3mBs; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:00:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Alexey Dokuchaev , Kevin Oberman Cc: Tomasz CEDRO , "freebsd-x11@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Questions Mailing List References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> <20200415093024.GB87161@FreeBSD.org> From: Niclas Zeising Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:00:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200415093024.GB87161@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4943w9015dz4fFT X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=daemonic.se header.s=20151023 header.b=ZOgptyWw; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=daemonic.se; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of zeising@daemonic.se designates 176.58.89.161 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=zeising@daemonic.se X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.69 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[daemonic.se:s=20151023]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-3.69)[ip: (-9.74), ipnet: 176.58.89.0/24(-4.87), asn: 36236(-3.81), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[daemonic.se:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[daemonic.se,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36236, ipnet:176.58.89.0/24, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:08:41 -0000 On 2020-04-15 11:30, Alexey Dokuchaev wrote: > On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 12:38:25PM -0700, Kevin Oberman wrote: >> A day or two ago I saw a post to this list stating that modesetting >> was not interesting because it did not support 3-D acceleration. > > I think I was quoting this forum post* by yuripv@, but now I see it's > from 2018 so it might no longer be accurate. Sorry for confusion. > >> At least on my Sandy Bridge system running the latest available >> software for FreeBSD 12-STABLE, 3-D acceleration works just fine. > > I'm currently trying to get X11 back to normal on my AMD laptop, and > without `x11-drivers/xf86-video-ati' port installed X server does not > even start, spamming me with "radeon: The kernel rejected CS, see dmesg > for more information (-16)." Of course, there is nothing useful in > dmesg. :-( > > Is "modesetting driver" only a thing in the Intel world, or it should > work for AMD cards too? > To my knowledge, it should work on all cards with a modesetting driver (meaning intel, various versions of the AMD/ATI driver, and nVidia, at least). AMD hasn't been as aggressive in deprecating xf86-video-[ati,amdgpu] as intel has been with xf86-video-intel though. This might also be an issue with drm-legacy-kmod vs. drm-kmod. Regards -- Niclas From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 07:28:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C9D2BFC1A for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:28:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4944LT5c4Bz3Bvy for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:28:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: XwEE0RoVM1kruJZUc7znPP5Qpqn9jGH9ymq052GMAPDd68YKCugX2LJ0Bx2jWBX QIyfvBvRrvJAgOX5z7iBtcgxjOs8GIPTfVzmuk6FUzbnIUasxcByfm7u0hVVcGwLN3AcoCM3FpST 9t38JhOukkUIx07Y1GbBuNGQv1dnd65Kt3dxOfk9jjCelPLZzm.VBHfrqg2C1wZ2J8TM7gdGMr2z ACpf9ptCLHlNPJrkzfkW1VPMSteXXrjQaD9Km2sAM3Dk1UYN3ennGAg9oGdLHJaPwE05nnAmRAYx oX.8NFk54it0rzaDZ7NU2BIEvelasqXGdUYtouPxtAxIQwyLNBIsmPansDxaAJge1L919HpJNylK VcnFmPQxzn8mZ0pAEBBqArny0F4t7zHykp1pIA7M8TRb5FA60gGF7H_9WcCOQaSy8tRtrT6NPFBD Nw7LXvSJgHi9b0heDbdks.78GkmRITw.olTRigOGaTML.Loi71L4wmMKeWanqfYxyoQzxMxW9bRc Lcp7.tBmOoV1Ji.scMW.CeNArhIEG45rF3GHTbI7HEbeIOcEcj3hjzNUwoaCXpWKo8Xer8UDuHMZ CfteT1daRzAwYYoHg5bRwhJcLzLdevo66Byv1Nqnqk2MVLs.f.mcCoCbhFCWOhriyFR57XjiTCuK _6QCRviVsCeWIdRY24UHwVPJzThU3DkI2XT.LHCqloan4i4Eof2iE8CYzg6xmy_H5LGIU.EUYANX CwvdbH3s0JPyFO2xUDONI38t7GiZVJk8U_tbvEEnT0UEvmJbRNUwuJPlEIAwvO2DmY70ZTnsdokE FayFD2959_y46m.5EolYDNvEQM0kh7CJk2N99YASx67fxi342PoP0yXw1oL7gidx0fltXChBzMqr cdSvuB3B.KiJmrgmDYx6gXc7y4iHYm_DGL0w9rC3qa1q3WqcLkb6ekNXpGOQqO.9en_A9BMhwdHD ACwiXeqJK2ERfhfTHfCMcp9gvv_xvV.9QO5lwUiTyjmX8oAOAsJmyvXKvb6.l6PDAJbTn8L2.sW7 t_0gYnKP0lh3K0SBorPTY0Cry5qhl1vP1igtsauF9aZLHL4BYtUGMfrBPqJj0hWAXZOgpN8M2dWO uFrTIjmD5DPNCrtb4i2KkrWKScxVUuTj.C.letTMViQr84ssMYi0ZK4UIhN1b1gqJj0OvzsbbV_g egFrHQNeE6iv75EDMsmrb7mBEHT1Piw9.uoAiNw9Igsf5LBJYt5r9JMxAowHuXRFmtUciMX1g39I bW9voybeogMJqEUfjQvqpegeoLlF8olmTzbiAT0fcQ97NWfprtLbJLLsJz04zgOzwg8g5OQSdjF9 tIhkutIcOoS9Xyrp47cnLKNUpPDynM1XDDZZzacKeo6bIyjlkHw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:27:59 +0000 Received: by smtp418.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 65bae71a4f747a1e5582ff741377d4c6; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:27:57 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:28:01 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-ID: <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4944LT5c4Bz3Bvy X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.19 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.73)[-0.734,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.968,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[146.179.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (6.30), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.14), asn: 34010(1.69), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[146.179.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:28:03 -0000 On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes to >make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. You were already proven wrong! Let alone that you are defeated by a naive miscalculation. Business models based on secret recipes don't grant to earn money. Even without "reverse engineering"/" disassembling" the idea could be taken over. I don't clame that the GPL is better (or less good) as MIT, BSD or what ever else licenses. I only claim that you are spreading misinformation. There are reasons for different licenses, so it's important to understand those reasons. The problem you have got is, that you don't understand anything at all. Note, the world is not divided into Communists and Capitalists, or into idiots and people who know objective facts.=20 Since you don't understand the reasons and consequences of the different open source licenses, you might want to take a look at the Creative Commons, since it explains an open minded worldview beyond your Communist-Capitalist-idiots-misinterpreted-objective-facts crap. To some extend it also fits to open source software licensing. Broadly speaking the Creative Commons is spread into =E2=80=9CApproved for = Free Cultural Works=E2=80=9D and not =E2=80=9CApproved for Free Cultural Works= =E2=80=9D licensing. Programmers as well as artist could earn enough money to make a living from work, that is also available for free as in beer. Some programmers and artists even don't want to make money at all with their software or artwork. However, programmers or artists are free to strike out on their own. Users are free to do the same. We have the freedom of choice. The pitfall of this freedom is, that it's annoying to care about all the details. As for myself, my life is to short to even read all end-user licence agreements, let alone to entirely understand those I read. If a programmer wants to sell software, the business model could be to provide easy to understand end-user licence agreements, that give users advantages and a free open source code, that gives advantages to competitors. For artists there is the CreativeCommons, it's a construction kit. For coders there are different FLOSS licenses, all with their pros and cons. If you remove the different names of those FLOSS licenses, you could consider it a construction kit, too, comparable to the CreativeCommons construction kit. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 11:56:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCB42C643A for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:56:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.localdomain (dontpanic.foucry.net [80.67.176.134]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494BJX1lb0z45WJ for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:56:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jacques+freebsd@foucry.net) Received: from mithril.foucry.net (mithril.foucry.net [127.0.0.1]) by mithril.localdomain (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF9618216 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:56:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:56:37 +0200 From: Jacques Foucry To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-ID: <20200418115637.GA62339@mithril.foucry.net> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494BJX1lb0z45WJ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=foucry.net (policy=none) X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.49 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.99)[-0.986,0]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[foucry.net : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; HFILTER_HELO_IP_A(1.00)[mithril.localdomain]; HFILTER_HELO_NORES_A_OR_MX(0.30)[mithril.localdomain]; IP_SCORE(-0.90)[ipnet: 80.67.160.0/19(-2.53), asn: 20766(-1.99), country: FR(0.00)]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20766, ipnet:80.67.160.0/19, country:FR]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[freebsd]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:56:45 -0000 Le vendredi 17 avr. 2020 à 18:02:58 (+0930), Shane Ambler à écrit: > On 17/4/20 4:45 pm, kindu smith wrote: > > Hello, I am a user who likes UNIX-like systems. I have some experience > > using GNU / Linux and some experience using freebsd. I like the > > architecture of UNIX-like systems, but I am not proficient, so I just > > want to mention some improvements. The idea of freebsd experience, > > what is unscientific, welcome to advise. > > > > First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent > > the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface > > are too old. It is time to make some changes. I think the freebsd with > > Have a look at trueos.org it adds a GUI installer to freebsd. > Expect the base freebsd to stick with a CLI installer to support the > non-gui server installs. Or GhostBSD which have all those « funny » things. A gui installer, a gui pacќega manager, use networkManager, etc. Pretty good for a desktop. Be carefull it's run on STABLE. This NOT an OS for *BSD sysadmin which will tune the OS, but to start using BSD like Linux, it's a good way. > > > microkernel will be more stable. The / boot / kernel directory is very > > suitable for writing a small kernel, such as named core, and then > > I don't expect you will get much support for this change. > > Have a look at minix3.org, a few years back they got minix running as > the microkernel and use netbsd as the userland. > > > In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a > > complete desktop environment, because this is very important for > > novices. I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. > > Those three main GUI desktops are in use by many people. If you want to > try something else have a look at x11/lumina, which is the new desktop > made for trueOS > > > It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by > > Freebsd. > > > > Freebsd should design a gorgeous interface comparable to macos, in > > Don't expect freebsd to remove the CLI to replace it with a GUI. It is > still used as a non-gui server by many people. > > > > -- > FreeBSD - the place to B...Software Developing > > Shane Ambler > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" ---end quoted text--- -- Jacques Foucry From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 12:07:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD522C736A for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:07:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pawel@jasiak.xyz) Received: from mail-lj1-x244.google.com (mail-lj1-x244.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::244]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494BXT2YwNz470D for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:07:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pawel@jasiak.xyz) Received: by mail-lj1-x244.google.com with SMTP id 67so881236ljj.4 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:07:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jasiak-xyz.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=5x243pLNRRLB5sf7QAnJbQnJFnW7HXWh0ID4J8BdIFQ=; b=ZICej6p8r9LMKYPtl4lGlGSVxYwuqhFyZepgRnwBowhWnuFbjOK5CnWb230Z4futZC pht9/plUPe68NQvmeVei4bUPGiP9+bf4P/yzRU31ZnvAGc2i27bebHE6d8lk1RXPFOat Rd4Fdc3cPTPuGadfNaJ1IBj6JzHGatBowisT1ugHmtyUWtrpxL/vUIYcR3HLMEhHiwp3 21A/bFS7jYANv9jByhlcaf1t/bhMm38+sHF5NTGboK1kwaFRk2w2LlVe1q2JEQ5x7amz Wyr9LwuE21olNePFNg1DKuE6Hpu1+eGnScgLX5ej5bovjDr2Bm9iMdQj9kvMj9u049xJ KgKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=5x243pLNRRLB5sf7QAnJbQnJFnW7HXWh0ID4J8BdIFQ=; b=BmDIlEqe5d4QmEmA8L8HS6tJTYL0MnaA/1XYcquGVlA0DP1Zd5ZpBTNmreeLg7qKZe GvZK2B1ag1hhtZY/0wRw0EiLqz2FFRvNdNMUTvEJhPRYmtQ52vyiMC0NYXPMGYTzA8ZM 1NC77mERjT4mPV//x129Z32IaG36JlM53AU01OgjiyeYamOUzxetNARqIdamAn3D+8Py 5Mv4aJN1pgFPOCjc0Oi/AsedH+dSQKHBevldVmwsYiBazeDBjq3dAeaRrKT5tr3WKRmm 21xUctzoo8lCw+dyaxcprxaxmH6AAWvOvNmk+iBikqMl3f7ECHvGwKQsAqavb7f2IVqW C4Gw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZGteB4LOqDrGRhCKtHaCHOjWU6ZrRZmj+ZWjp520+C0s0unN34 nrwmCcYtz41d0MbqkefS8G8i5RF2XiA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIzTm5UxU7GH1hvIxSVUxSjU8uAUNxsu+WrmHw1QBFSUpod/A2BZfWOR3qohz5DCw7j3foz6g== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7006:: with SMTP id l6mr4599884ljc.269.1587211623340; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmail.com (wireless-nat-78.ip4.greenlan.pl. [185.56.211.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a22sm18493615ljm.28.2020.04.18.05.07.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 18 Apr 2020 05:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:07:00 +0200 From: =?utf-8?B?UGF3ZcWC?= Jasiak To: Polytropon Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Arguments format Message-ID: <20200418120700.GA47913@gmail.com> References: <20200417160556.GA44862@gmail.com> <20200417184725.b49109b7.freebsd@edvax.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200417184725.b49109b7.freebsd@edvax.de> X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494BXT2YwNz470D X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=jasiak-xyz.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=ZICej6p8; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pawel@jasiak.xyz designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::244 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pawel@jasiak.xyz X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.08 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[jasiak-xyz.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.38)[-0.379,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip6:2a00:1450:4000::/36]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[78.211.56.185.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[jasiak.xyz]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.43)[-0.433,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[jasiak-xyz.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.5.4.1.0.0.a.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-0.01)[ip: (2.78), ipnet: 2a00:1450::/32(-2.34), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[78.211.56.185.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:07:06 -0000 --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for your response! On 17/04/20, Polytropon wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:05:56 +0200, Pawe=C5=82 Jasiak wrote: > > 1. In sys/mips/mips/autoconf.c we have functions > >=20 > > static void configure_first(dummy) > > static void configure(dummy) > > static void configure_final(dummy) > >=20 > > and we are not using argument. We are having those functions also in > > ricv, arm, arm64, powerpc and x86 and in non of them we are using dummy, > > so maybe we can just remove it? Or if it is necessary why we don't mark > > it as __unused like in other functions? >=20 > I haven't checked any further, but I could imagine that > is has to do with the requirement of those functions > being able - at least in their declaration - to accept > a parameter; the type void * is a "somewhat universal" > type. Note that the functions are being mentioned in > macros, such as >=20 > SYSINIT(configure1, SI_SUB_CONFIGURE, SI_ORDER_FIRST, configure_first, N= ULL); >=20 > in /usr/src/sys/powerpc/powerpc/autoconf.c which might > be the reason why there has to be a dummy parameter... >=20 > Okay, further investigation. ;-) >=20 > According to "man 9 SYSINIT", the definition is >=20 > SYSINIT(uniquifier, enum sysinit_sub_id subsystem, > enum sysinit_elem_order order, sysinit_cfunc_t func, > const void *ident); >=20 > and the type sysinit_cfunc_t is defined as >=20 > typedef void (*sysinit_cfunc_t)(const void *); >=20 > in /usr/src/sys/sys/kernel.h, so this is the reaon why > the configure_first(), configure(), and configure_final() > functions have to be "compatible". Thanks, I didn't really pay attention to SYSINIT but still don't=20 understand why we don't mark the arguments as __unused. > > 2. Above functions have strange definition for arguments. > >=20 > > static void > > configure(dummy) > > void *dummy; > > { > > ... > > } > >=20 > > Why we are not using > >=20 > > static void > > configure(void *dummy) > > { > > ... > > } > >=20 > > like in other places? >=20 > That is not a strange format, it's an older dialect of C, > usually called "K&R C", where the definition of a function > typically is: >=20 > return-type function-name(arg1, arg2, arg3, ...) > type arg1; > type arg2; > type arg3; > ... > { > function-body > } >=20 > A convention also is to put the function's return type on > an individual line, so the function's name always starts > at column 1. >=20 > See "man 9 style" for details. >=20 > Still, this style is not being followed consistently: >=20 > % grep "^configure_first" `find /usr/src/sys -name autoconf.c` > /usr/src/sys/x86/x86/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > /usr/src/sys/arm64/arm64/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > /usr/src/sys/arm/arm/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > /usr/src/sys/riscv/riscv/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > /usr/src/sys/sparc64/sparc64/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > /usr/src/sys/powerpc/powerpc/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > /usr/src/sys/mips/mips/autoconf.c:configure_first(dummy) >=20 > Some use "K&R C" style, others use "ANSI C" style. Thanks, I know both styles and I was worried about mixing them. > > 3. In sys/mips/mips/octeon_cop2.c we are having > >=20 > > struct octeon_cop2_state * > > octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() > > { > > ... > > } > > but it's declaration in sys/mips/include/octeon_cop2.h is > >=20 > > struct octeon_cop2_state* octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void); > >=20 > > Question is if we should change octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() into > > octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void)? >=20 > There is a difference between () and (void) which _might_ be > intended; however, prototype and declaration should in fact > have the same signature. If the argument is (), the function > will accept any parameters, including none ("any parameters > list"); if it's (void), the function will refuse to accept > any parameters ("emtpy parameter list"), which is explicit > for "it doesn't use any parameters". I know the difference again ;)=20 % grep -nr "octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx" sys/mips/mips/vm_machdep.c:164: td2->td_md.md_cop2 =3D octeon_c= op2_alloc_ctx(); sys/mips/mips/vm_machdep.c:169: td2->td_md.md_ucop2 =3D octeon_= cop2_alloc_ctx(); sys/mips/mips/octeon_cop2.c:53:octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() sys/mips/mips/trap.c:942: td->td_md.md_cop2 =3D octeon_co= p2_alloc_ctx(); sys/mips/mips/trap.c:995: td->td_md.md_ucop2 =3D = octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(); sys/mips/include/octeon_cop2.h:208:struct octeon_cop2_state* octeon_cop2_al= loc_ctx(void); I believe that all uses of the octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx function so I still don't understand why we have different signatures. Thanks! --=20 Pawe=C5=82 Jasiak --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEENIqkLxDcCMlLMdi0FzfmQudzVTgFAl6a7WAACgkQFzfmQudz VTg2phAAj1VuhTNQzDbyvrMl1IYzuw0fAEjoQRXFuZ2mlumnvBEbr9AqS4PJZ8wf +DLwxw0mpjOYkjs3/3UaJYGVSBW53jY2XlrgKMVUm6r/dEQySmxbRSzJjV1nk6bB d30WUK01yNn519Yj//qK19OHC6KxnzBtnwQx2VX9h5bU7rVr5CROhMppuvgAc029 rJ4THXwdghBRgTLvw/vZ0dxVNOBW5MKQybFMEsIHmHpNlkrFMdq0MFPonE7ukYcT T2oP079USjKtaqHlMBJioY3Pm+V0Hf3PT6ndovvYBJnz7G3robJv3UwrY0/0sJ+G l/sVT4wtZThcybE3ZslfOPAqW4Hyqk90D42m4OTYZNc7uqAU9DlpJCUPBVPnqcF4 A2o+JJxkY6qDrFxa1b1/08FfXS115N848N4GlqReKqg+tjHyvoQKzgidtswJeXJT oyfssBu627731nVCqccxvNpLe1/tWtIPBMf2O+7z16uHjTkiA/QXPfEktBEGjaoB rbckNkeTC39JwzEWMUvPX3/jDhP7RZ5uNwI2cv43qYeaPpbP3VyU9/VSEV/ZFlXI KVGZw0C/5aGyF+XxOCDgQVz8pwRcklzEJ6SPGds0i12LT0aqSDKDoKKoFhJcRYSW DAtZUvAbKGMikpeE2qTReO01pi8/uVM7g8kuApM1US24PSuiVZY= =LgTT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0-- From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 12:29:55 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA892C7FAE for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:29:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from contact@evilham.com) Received: from yggdrasil.evilham.com (yggdrasil.evilham.com [46.19.33.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494C2p3nTGz48c5 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:29:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from contact@evilham.com) Received: from yggdrasil.evilham.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by yggdrasil.evilham.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494C2f58WWzr5L for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:29:46 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=evilham.com; h=from:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type; s=mail; bh=cdOLQvqlWNrOHvZvfDq+bdjKfsA=; b=JPX3Ug W+1Ogx9citACtUaLlb6dSv+e8AkLDaPhNjOQruYwyvAT5UXMdUPaHE4FdfIenwlf g5r1u4tE/FIJrTSknfEGK36bEH664dO918f+eAzMSHvWxerVwDIPQ5jmlTOGpEwi Dx+Qa65rMZ2LmPw+cK2uQGnT2uIqcd6PP2nek= Received: from yggdrasil.evilham.com (unknown [IPv6:2a0a:e5c1:121:1::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by yggdrasil.evilham.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 494C2d6vRszr5K for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:29:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Evilham To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wayland on FreeBSD References: <19214139.lkKKEJL0j7@amos> In-reply-to: <19214139.lkKKEJL0j7@amos> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:29:44 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494C2p3nTGz48c5 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=fail (rsa verify failed) header.d=evilham.com header.s=mail header.b=JPX3Ug W; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=evilham.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of contact@evilham.com designates 46.19.33.155 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=contact@evilham.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.47 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; R_DKIM_REJECT(0.00)[evilham.com:s=mail]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[evilham.com:-]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[evilham.com,none]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW_WITH_FAILURES(-0.50)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:196752, ipnet:46.19.32.0/21, country:NL]; IP_SCORE(-3.67)[ip: (-9.80), ipnet: 46.19.32.0/21(-4.90), asn: 196752(-3.69), country: NL(0.03)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:29:55 -0000 On ds., abr. 18 2020, Ihor Antonov wrote: > On Friday, 17 April 2020 13:34:16 PDT Tomasz CEDRO wrote: >> Hello world :-) > Hello >> Time to move from X11 to Wayland :-) > Well, >> Anyone using Wayland with success already? > > Hi, I had some success in running sway (i3 drop-in replacement) > Although some fixes were required as it was not working out of > the box. > LMK if you are going to update the wiki - I can share my notes > on setting up > sway. > >> I would like to use Enlightenment (0.23.1) + Wayland. >> >> The WiKi for Wayland on FreeBSD seems a bit out of date (2018). >> How >> can I modify it with my discoveries? :-) >> >> https://wiki.freebsd.org/Graphics/Wayland >> >> Best regards :-) >> Tomek Also writing from sway on Wayland. I've been looking at Hikari (in ports) which is very promising *and* the author (raichoo) has some good inputs regarding Wayland (and a FOSDEM 2020 talk about that). Specifically, Hikari's readme contains information about using Wayland on FreeBSD: https://hikari.acmelabs.space That certainly was enough for me to be able to use sway and test out Hikari. Apparently there was a bunch of work in February/early March regarding xwayland-devel and libepoll-shim, which were quite relevant in making things easy now. Maybe you can use all of this and what's on the wiki to bring it up to date :-). -- Evilham From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 13:23:17 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09302C926B for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:23:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494DDP0GLBz4Dgh for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:23:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: tVcVW1sVM1nu18OoKjXq4zAOvbiI3KAW87b3LX8D8mYDef6qItCWeO4W56HxHyl A_tZKCAZwbBnKTcuvKIqnynA3hu16v10Doele9XHC_Wa0NHCALU9zIdeYCmAjXfn3HSg1bNhx.iG nJWCkt2zDt85PeFi7eGQwSfcICoi.KqzwClQ9qh8AjtgU.HF3SNUBDFBEXtnb4ccpPPHTAPLq1tk 1Nbw6oLf_O0iRPh_7XgbGG292wiDhYZpaRyU3CKUVU3X7Dt1PG1my.FS6ykI5SLP71IlKjClUVeW aA663UHhEDr6d7JiBG8pagQQN2unKaNfJO0f8s1S3GbNh1Y0DrElpVyxf4Vvpq1v9phldHPa8u0b 55Hfbe5EE.fUnGDpy8_R.aQoXTvro8f5rig6urio_c7D6qZoUMjd3VJbpSL0C2NmiLdwqfooE36n TiHavrP.NJSvI5aOAgAeAMNC7twlRZuM_eNdaOgC3M0h4I7lQcqpYxFQnkxzMCULWJWiCwv_1HJ5 2CrvFFscnQJs7sHqPXjZR_mYijYc5X1WhprH_ofszKb15oczArP7MdyL1SVzbwEBOhZKta8a6bz5 hOpxEjZpb2U_dGqjLHiZ0daC1TYSNMQga3W1YH_GRJ3wh8eeOFMnyaiIxtcVsZMpMBa8PHggGzrc JPVbg1.8SLg5LjZGjluIzzuwTj_KtBE2xbf74_ZN0emwcj2DKEU7kbprF1o.JYoEUIOtWxFxeVxU M5NmtWNgFJGpIBSXFZAPXf09fIpfgk9s893CVRyeUAyNOcWPzNTb2zm3lP6s8qqBqVdVbA7B47vk E0SrRCXTuNuUyeC3gMMX4Wpa_cW7tgkmgKca4jtdL9ROF8Kf7O3yeh69r1bVM9FkaVuLptyqwvgo dXxrIyzbLcubKN2q5ca9twakfsYXkKVkqdyCv505IQ.QHomzKM_ipey0DYPufPDihgC1rrHgwfEY cd7xZjdFMc36FWEX9HaM8lKEQzs052ud2.fEax3KaQThlln6l7bflTqwmR0JqvaYEnSClmulE1ij qU3wx3TXBwboupaLLG07xkNJDB0ojqCVBg3YCLvCdUu1ELIdrbrm.q4GRjqWToL61MsS.tsbvwH_ nV3H6Zf38ENQnyTHn9NVRHBu.kfgIaxaW5wU2reaV3cxseEXd1C36puuhRIQvCxJrrm0ZABB__EY 9vC4vhIWwAoBTziPNudP1LPsrepa2g2oMef9CU0rFo8MiIlSHwcl0v8F7FLBSknJ08bZX4G9qkK5 1TxEgvMT6kjkTdNvqhuOHAv2hCPWstLqL13jx4lpRMbtNZM1yKkjto4SH8iQ6dqbMpgH.KIAep7E TTf_STS6a36h8v8qwYKGhkkZtFzXsp.bAEMcj_l_ernZii7YfNhxklBBdzkUJRuXTyDPHpOm.Fbx ReQjp7Zbsgg-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:23:14 +0000 Received: by smtp431.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 91f24c6dca82964c7a502b75a75ecb8e; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:23:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl1-f169.google.com with SMTP id t4so2060507plq.12 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:23:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZX11/dN9SVIdDEtiv9xD+SLzOhDqRrGug0wzDp561+vePT9BZK WuR7jmPTRVdNppz2O+t6pG9Fv/SGLRA1MFjFrHo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLjFRqEgNUQ0vw7qxZIzPXP9q/SvhBRl7jWTOzvjbn4ZgwiJDnuIiKJN0vX5wrXFSVlneLykzXyAZcdLEej0jI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d917:: with SMTP id c23mr10206566pjv.192.1587216188748; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:23:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <20200418115637.GA62339@mithril.foucry.net> In-Reply-To: <20200418115637.GA62339@mithril.foucry.net> From: Ottavio Caruso Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:22:52 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494DDP0GLBz4Dgh X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.56 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[ottavio2006-usenet2012@yahoo.com,pr0f3ss0r1492@yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.88)[-0.879,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.981,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.15), ipnet: 66.163.184.0/21(1.16), asn: 36646(0.93), country: US(-0.05)]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[200.184.163.66.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[200.184.163.66.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:23:18 -0000 On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 at 12:56, Jacques Foucry w= rote: > Or GhostBSD which have all those =C2=AB funny =C2=BB things. A gui instal= ler, a gui > pac=D1=9Cega manager, use networkManager, etc. > > Pretty good for a desktop. Be carefull it's run on STABLE. > > This NOT an OS for *BSD sysadmin which will tune the OS, but to start usi= ng > BSD like Linux, it's a good way. You're painting a picture of Linux (which is not an OS but a kernel) as if it was the ultimate eye-candy, graphics-fanboi OS, which is not. Under the hood, it can be as arcane and obscure as any old-school Unix clones. Outside the *BSD bubble, 99% of IT end users regard Linux as "the" difficult OS. Some people find Windows 10 difficult. Some people find using an Android smartphone difficult. Yes, we may think they are stupid but they are the ones who pay our wages. Just slap Mate, KDE or Gnome on any OS and it will make it more beginners-friendly. --=20 Ottavio Caruso From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 13:31:26 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BBED2C961C for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:31:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [217.72.192.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494DPn0NwWz4FCq for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([94.222.27.149]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MKbc2-1jgNZl2iRY-00L21u; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:31:21 +0200 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:31:21 +0200 From: Polytropon To: =?UTF-8?B?UGF3ZcWC?= Jasiak Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Arguments format Message-Id: <20200418153121.c4419587.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20200418120700.GA47913@gmail.com> References: <20200417160556.GA44862@gmail.com> <20200417184725.b49109b7.freebsd@edvax.de> <20200418120700.GA47913@gmail.com> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:2bfoSTFCalZL1tU4unNNXxpv7pPuyteDTQJAxnPxXM3upuSTNYe dDFBb8rwVrRxg93bDjBK8sLOAPPE1F+gecF1yySoKeIIwEsjWiIWIsT2mmN28Uh5cFMomaa 7Kw4p4obuik7/sbhyuM0et/ZTcM9og3CPmgLzRhUmB+T7iEORTFO8N2q+0uz+ZfEE5utjtU ZtEmcY7r5qGLqTzT9gfhA== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:WtaW0reXmrU=:EMAY/QrSo+FdpEcwKu4ZY8 jBOQBgIyNoJt0Qfq9ngo+2by5SO96OVsQFTMMe0D29vgcRWvGJHmQrcLz1PJ1VU1cYleaj8j7 V3PJLhAzIihBRtwim9pFoufxpthXeQ+65I4aOn9GQWormpV8NumhSoiqGqo7WTDe8DMdVpKyA nl48hYRnkyVaPVbo1EW9Qnrfi7h/8xeKqTqEp/s2lzwF+chm5i/juGmxBwjOtxwv6dbUZZk/u oHe9cm9MOhmUU/Si+s/AU6E2rF/X+HTQhUbgSHsXavmFLQHC8kdiuhy0t36Q24cGoJ/k20vhu L6q7sbrguJG2HZqIxCLYzy7F5BCy+wMwXPwlfWhJmyowVT4KQIijvzju5H/mHz9i2PSCDSxcK jaQuX6IbyglKeUGdtVn9wtyQM+1rn7NpLMAcFnVtiAin0J8j5HsjhFctP6rasdjFpW/2gyYZV N9ugwkp8kfDpGg/igCWu8OOSsln4uFJlFkI8hIIG2X3W+e1CtfE3SpFN8825YhoaT5vx+Bceq An7OzcZ+5YYn+abFi82HKsPKCmc/Nn+O/TM69mkdhMQ9xHhvXzUDRRUBlrYo3QJxh0G5tOYFI 0jayslBdbv5iNBDXUG2d7l+McYyJLTLbnRrVoxah7/nS/F3Kx3w2n6G0U4SZowNwi/3bNlzkJ lHfncdpT/G1sS/+3U3ZV5p6ZBmmlu6iuy89TsfDpewHbIGrxiuH0yHnn+K+N/gzDGJTDsuJgC ucrAE2Rw2cO3cYLSViDClGINiOw5HMK1YX/OFdzwmXhM1pFEgDUEEx84wv5PM2Sj957c3Srus ca8DGJVSgu9JovKm89bXpgg+H09B+aRA+Xzw47asTrZ00PxRxmsY7j8hlyu4I8Kh/PS54mt X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494DPn0NwWz4FCq X-Spamd-Bar: ++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 217.72.192.75) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [4.60 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:217.72.192.0/20, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[149.27.222.94.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.86)[0.864,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[0.997,0]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[75.192.72.217.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE(0.34)[ip: (-0.65), ipnet: 217.72.192.0/20(0.26), asn: 8560(2.09), country: DE(-0.02)] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:31:26 -0000 On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:07:00 +0200, Paweł Jasiak wrote: > Thanks for your response! > > On 17/04/20, Polytropon wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 18:05:56 +0200, Paweł Jasiak wrote: > > > 1. In sys/mips/mips/autoconf.c we have functions > > > > > > static void configure_first(dummy) > > > static void configure(dummy) > > > static void configure_final(dummy) > > > > > > and we are not using argument. We are having those functions also in > > > ricv, arm, arm64, powerpc and x86 and in non of them we are using dummy, > > > so maybe we can just remove it? Or if it is necessary why we don't mark > > > it as __unused like in other functions? > > > > I haven't checked any further, but I could imagine that > > is has to do with the requirement of those functions > > being able - at least in their declaration - to accept > > a parameter; the type void * is a "somewhat universal" > > type. Note that the functions are being mentioned in > > macros, such as > > > > SYSINIT(configure1, SI_SUB_CONFIGURE, SI_ORDER_FIRST, configure_first, NULL); > > > > in /usr/src/sys/powerpc/powerpc/autoconf.c which might > > be the reason why there has to be a dummy parameter... > > > > Okay, further investigation. ;-) > > > > According to "man 9 SYSINIT", the definition is > > > > SYSINIT(uniquifier, enum sysinit_sub_id subsystem, > > enum sysinit_elem_order order, sysinit_cfunc_t func, > > const void *ident); > > > > and the type sysinit_cfunc_t is defined as > > > > typedef void (*sysinit_cfunc_t)(const void *); > > > > in /usr/src/sys/sys/kernel.h, so this is the reaon why > > the configure_first(), configure(), and configure_final() > > functions have to be "compatible". > > Thanks, I didn't really pay attention to SYSINIT but still don't > understand why we don't mark the arguments as __unused. If I remember correctly, __unused is an attribute primarily intended as a hint to the compiler that says "the variable probably will not be used", so the compiler won't issue the corresponding warning message. So __unused is optional here, what matters is that sysinit_cfunc_t in SYSINIT requires the argument list of (void *). However, if the dummy argument is not to be used, adding __unused would probably be a good idea. > > > 2. Above functions have strange definition for arguments. > > > > > > static void > > > configure(dummy) > > > void *dummy; > > > { > > > ... > > > } > > > > > > Why we are not using > > > > > > static void > > > configure(void *dummy) > > > { > > > ... > > > } > > > > > > like in other places? > > > > That is not a strange format, it's an older dialect of C, > > usually called "K&R C", where the definition of a function > > typically is: > > > > return-type function-name(arg1, arg2, arg3, ...) > > type arg1; > > type arg2; > > type arg3; > > ... > > { > > function-body > > } > > > > A convention also is to put the function's return type on > > an individual line, so the function's name always starts > > at column 1. > > > > See "man 9 style" for details. > > > > Still, this style is not being followed consistently: > > > > % grep "^configure_first" `find /usr/src/sys -name autoconf.c` > > /usr/src/sys/x86/x86/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > > /usr/src/sys/arm64/arm64/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > > /usr/src/sys/arm/arm/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > > /usr/src/sys/riscv/riscv/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > > /usr/src/sys/sparc64/sparc64/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > > /usr/src/sys/powerpc/powerpc/autoconf.c:configure_first(void *dummy) > > /usr/src/sys/mips/mips/autoconf.c:configure_first(dummy) > > > > Some use "K&R C" style, others use "ANSI C" style. > > Thanks, I know both styles and I was worried about mixing them. Excellent. :-) The primary reason probably is the age of certain code. Not all code present in FreeBSD conforms to "man 9 style". > > > 3. In sys/mips/mips/octeon_cop2.c we are having > > > > > > struct octeon_cop2_state * > > > octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() > > > { > > > ... > > > } > > > but it's declaration in sys/mips/include/octeon_cop2.h is > > > > > > struct octeon_cop2_state* octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void); > > > > > > Question is if we should change octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() into > > > octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void)? > > > > There is a difference between () and (void) which _might_ be > > intended; however, prototype and declaration should in fact > > have the same signature. If the argument is (), the function > > will accept any parameters, including none ("any parameters > > list"); if it's (void), the function will refuse to accept > > any parameters ("emtpy parameter list"), which is explicit > > for "it doesn't use any parameters". > > I know the difference again ;) > > % grep -nr "octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx" > sys/mips/mips/vm_machdep.c:164: td2->td_md.md_cop2 = octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(); > sys/mips/mips/vm_machdep.c:169: td2->td_md.md_ucop2 = octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(); > sys/mips/mips/octeon_cop2.c:53:octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() > sys/mips/mips/trap.c:942: td->td_md.md_cop2 = octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(); > sys/mips/mips/trap.c:995: td->td_md.md_ucop2 = octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(); > sys/mips/include/octeon_cop2.h:208:struct octeon_cop2_state* octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void); > > > I believe that all uses of the octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx function so I still > don't understand why we have different signatures. According to "man 9 style", argument names can be omitted in the header files, so declaration and definition might "look different", but are the same to the compiler and linker: int foo(int a, void *b, char c, struct blah d) { ... } int bar(void) { ... } The "simplified prototype" in the header file becomes: int foo(int, void *, char, struct blah); int bar(void); Only the types remain. That would be consistent; the example you provided is inconsistent; /usr/src/sys/mips/mips/octeon_cop2.c contains the definition as follows: struct octeon_cop2_state * octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx() { return uma_zalloc(ctxzone, M_NOWAIT); } The header file /usr/src/sys/mips/include/octeon_cop2.h defines: struct octeon_cop2_state* octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void); As I wrote about the meaning of () vs. (void), this might be an occassion to suggest that probably (void) should be used in both places. You could file a bug report for this. Also note that according to "man 9 style", the * belongs to the name: struct octeon_cop2_state *octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void); And similarly: struct octeon_cop2_state * octeon_cop2_alloc_ctx(void) { return uma_zalloc(ctxzone, M_NOWAIT); } I cannot imagine why two different signatures exist, but you could ask the developers if there _is_ a reason to do so. As I mentioned, it's not actually wrong, as () "anything" allows (void) "nothing", but still it should match. And the function is always called with _no_ arguments, so (void) should be the correct thing to choose here. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 13:31:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D822C966E for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:31:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x144.google.com (mail-il1-x144.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::144]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494DQ71q51z4FPg for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:31:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x144.google.com with SMTP id i16so231360ils.12 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:31:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1qxLKS13/oYSW2/9p8jZLeBGBv5FCYnNCAQ89gZI9d0=; b=jNXTxAUjzy2KPEA+mo2mBbR0Gf2cfS2Nc3hYtcpc6bNX7+apugmNsfAzLx5kHIOeix J6FOaF1HY+6Ki1/UexntTvSFwMR1vWLT4WTgBKFBQQKGCDlHaCD2NPJIQwcYvdGdrMNi JqotBoeCAgzicHqREnu8um1RhoR56X3MXuddlob5IceFGnt9VH9wAYvBrF0Srdupw3D3 uRFnqtOupip8S/eckt8gNxoaL4DqkY7E5O+O3k3kzIaXj1JFwoqC5VAOA+QhqTVzc4ns 5R8s66uhan0haTla9HR7ynymGHVxsgqKQZb+GtRx+OUc+qwtlIQzGvaFXb8hljNYtpfE ciTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1qxLKS13/oYSW2/9p8jZLeBGBv5FCYnNCAQ89gZI9d0=; b=NxrNljW87pYHksUdeAHv7ks0YRjt/VpmMs3GJNBqkLQ+IVOlL7awJi/zIi2t7A6Zq8 rRKNc1SEsycHPBRDb93gZ+i9WohW8+CJFOfyedHXRhylxgv4rOpc2R73+aMdG6pSBfbd lmkoP7Bgal+En61i4v9UEq9fzVNYuGTnpxF7ljZEFsRpJ1syGsZSADQErnbzY6DHJyzO vDsntnU3xPgFfkuUJjAhQymPqpo4GkpWgiLUYxjxp99RYBpKcC0Wi7qMYrnkpI6wY4QR rKlKdqym3gUeGDsYzEEC8wGG+Z+/YB6eGizZUcqLyBgVuYv0OppsQR1wy4Nrqt3XZ+hp GDfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua4672zc2OnbTTNdzWrC9CqfLxQXaN09dbLsFO+2od72yzyEN3y e/9StOyfrvg1WFO37Uwyn+dBFh/OhZby7MJmJS6Mx5XBhLk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLKxff77dSfH4yfIXNZTTFzqAISeo0MXbit/jvnS2JKKRVR+2RKIuL3hHs6OiL0Y6uEJFLvN6+hu+PEciYuQ/E= X-Received: by 2002:a92:d186:: with SMTP id z6mr5943228ilz.119.1587216702073; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 06:31:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:31:30 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494DQ71q51z4FPg X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=jNXTxAUj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::144 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.15), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[4.4.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:31:45 -0000 On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:28 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes to > >make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. > > You were already proven wrong! Let alone that you are defeated by a > naive miscalculation. > Every so called attempt to prove me wrong proved to be strawmen so please explain again the proof in a way that is not easy to show has at least one or more wholes in it. Business models based on secret recipes don't grant to earn money. Even > without "reverse engineering"/" disassembling" the idea could be > taken over. > Nor do business models that force you to make every last trade secret free for anyone to use. I don't know if your American or not but in the US the Constitution specifically protects the ability to keep exclusive rights to your work for a reasonable amount of time: "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries." (Article I, Section 8, Clause 8) Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality of GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project to give up all claims over how their work is used would likely unconstitutional. FSF knows this and that is why they highly recommends you to assign all intellectual property rights to FSF and/or the original author. https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#AssignCopyright And in some cases the users of the program *DEMAND* that you can not open source it for example one clause of the contract for developing the cardiac system I mentioned is we are not allowed to do any work (directly or indirectly) for any other cardiac related medical lab/service. Thus if any part of our work was GPL then I guarantee the client would sue the pants off of us. This means for example using linsucks is completely out the question for more then just technical reasons. > I don't clame that the GPL is better (or less good) as MIT, BSD or what > ever else licenses. I only claim that you are spreading misinformation. > If anything you are the one spreading misinformation based on a half informed knowledge of what the actual license says and the official interpretation of it's meaning (the GPL FAQ). I have spent over more then 5 years attempting to find a way to make GPL compatible with commercial work (including several hours of paid consulting with an intellectual property attorney), the only possible way is to dual license it (something GPL at least on the surface forbids). Where is BSD requires no such morally dishonest gymnastics since it is not viral. > There are reasons for different licenses, so it's important to > understand those reasons. The problem you have got is, that you don't > understand anything at all. > >From what you have said (and easily disproven) I wonder who has the understanding problem. > Note, the world is not divided into Communists and Capitalists, or > into idiots and people who know objective facts. The world is divided into the have's and have not's no matter how you want to phrase is and the simple fact of the matter is viral licenses (like GPL) re-enforce this while claiming to break out of this division. GPL is only suitable for people who don't need to worry about where their next meal is coming from (i.e. those who are subsitized by large organizations/user bases of that do not derive any direct living from their GPL'ed project). So please stop telling people the only possible way to be moral is to give up the ability to make a living in their chosen field (I do not see how that could be called moral by any definition). > > > Since you don't understand the reasons and consequences of the > different open source licenses, you might want to take a look at the > Creative Commons, since it explains an open minded worldview beyond > your Communist-Capitalist-idiots-misinterpreted-objective-facts > crap. To some extend it also fits to open source software licensing. > Broadly speaking the Creative Commons is spread into =E2=80=9CApproved fo= r Free > Cultural Works=E2=80=9D and not =E2=80=9CApproved for Free Cultural Works= =E2=80=9D licensing. > I suspect you have never been at risk of being homeless. I have and while in some ivory tower giving away your work is morally superior then associating with the evil word: money. I wonder what your landlord or the local grocery would tell you if you told them that because you do GPL work you will pay them in karma? > Programmers as well as artist could earn enough money to make a living > from work, that is also available for free as in beer. Have fun explaining that your landlord! > Some programmers > and artists even don't want to make money at all with their software or > artwork. However, programmers or artists are free to strike out on > their own. Users are free to do the same. > > We have the freedom of choice. The pitfall of this freedom is, that it's > annoying to care about all the details If you really care about freedom of choice why are you defending a license that takes that freedom away from you? As for myself, my life is to short to even read all end-user licence > agreements, let alone to entirely understand those I read. If a > programmer wants to sell software, the business model could be to > provide easy to understand end-user licence agreements, that give users > advantages and a free open source code, that gives advantages to > competitors. > And thats why I use BSD it is easy to understand but does not forbid anything that makes it possible to make a living. > For artists there is the CreativeCommons, it's a construction kit. For > coders there are different FLOSS licenses, all with their pros and > cons. If you remove the different names of those FLOSS licenses, you > could consider it a construction kit, too, comparable to the > CreativeCommons construction kit. > OSD sets some minimum requirements for FOSS all of which make impossible to make a living while using a viral license. --=20 Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 14:01:14 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E627C2CA2F9 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:01:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494F4B1F7jz4HKP for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:01:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.139.171]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6EAF54E676 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:01:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:01:12 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494F4B1F7jz4HKP X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[171.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[171.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.999,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (0.31), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.15), asn: 160(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:01:15 -0000 On 4/18/20 8:31 AM, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:28 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>> And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes to >>> make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. >> >> You were already proven wrong! Let alone that you are defeated by a >> naive miscalculation. >> > > Every so called attempt to prove me wrong proved to be strawmen so please > explain again the proof in a way that is not easy to show has at least one > or more wholes in it. > > Business models based on secret recipes don't grant to earn money. Even >> without "reverse engineering"/" disassembling" the idea could be >> taken over. >> > > Nor do business models that force you to make every last trade secret free > for anyone to use. I don't know if your American or not but in the US the > Constitution specifically protects the ability to keep exclusive rights to > your work for a reasonable amount of time: "To promote the progress of > science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and > inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and > discoveries." (Article I, Section 8, Clause 8) > > Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality of > GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project Nope. GPL is not forcing anyone. GPL is just binding contract. You agree to obey GPL requirements it and before you use GPL licensed code. If you don't agree, don't use GPL licensed code. That simple. Get yourself a bit of legal understanding, even on the layman level will do, before starting to talk legalese. Just my 2 cents. Valeri to give > up all claims over how their work is used would likely unconstitutional. > FSF knows this and that is why they highly recommends you to assign all > intellectual property rights to FSF and/or the original author. > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#AssignCopyright > > And in some cases the users of the program *DEMAND* that you can not open > source it for example one clause of the contract for developing the cardiac > system I mentioned is we are not allowed to do any work (directly or > indirectly) for any other cardiac related medical lab/service. Thus if > any part of our work was GPL then I guarantee the client would sue the > pants off of us. This means for example using linsucks is completely out > the question for more then just technical reasons. > > > >> I don't clame that the GPL is better (or less good) as MIT, BSD or what >> ever else licenses. I only claim that you are spreading misinformation. >> > > If anything you are the one spreading misinformation based on a half > informed knowledge of what the actual license says and the official > interpretation of it's meaning (the GPL FAQ). I have spent over more then > 5 years attempting to find a way to make GPL compatible with commercial > work (including several hours of paid consulting with an intellectual > property attorney), the only possible way is to dual license it (something > GPL at least on the surface forbids). Where is BSD requires no such > morally dishonest gymnastics since it is not viral. > > >> There are reasons for different licenses, so it's important to >> understand those reasons. The problem you have got is, that you don't >> understand anything at all. >> > > From what you have said (and easily disproven) I wonder who has the > understanding problem. > > >> Note, the world is not divided into Communists and Capitalists, or >> into idiots and people who know objective facts. > > > The world is divided into the have's and have not's no matter how you want > to phrase is and the simple fact of the matter is viral licenses (like GPL) > re-enforce this while claiming to break out of this division. GPL is only > suitable for people who don't need to worry about where their next meal is > coming from (i.e. those who are subsitized by large organizations/user > bases of that do not derive any direct living from their GPL'ed project). > So please stop telling people the only possible way to be moral is to > give up the ability to make a living in their chosen field (I do not see > how that could be called moral by any definition). > > >> >> >> Since you don't understand the reasons and consequences of the >> different open source licenses, you might want to take a look at the >> Creative Commons, since it explains an open minded worldview beyond >> your Communist-Capitalist-idiots-misinterpreted-objective-facts >> crap. To some extend it also fits to open source software licensing. >> Broadly speaking the Creative Commons is spread into “Approved for Free >> Cultural Works” and not “Approved for Free Cultural Works” licensing. >> > > I suspect you have never been at risk of being homeless. I have and while > in some ivory tower giving away your work is morally superior then > associating with the evil word: money. I wonder what your landlord or the > local grocery would tell you if you told them that because you do GPL work > you will pay them in karma? > > > >> Programmers as well as artist could earn enough money to make a living >> from work, that is also available for free as in beer. > > > Have fun explaining that your landlord! > > >> Some programmers >> and artists even don't want to make money at all with their software or >> artwork. However, programmers or artists are free to strike out on >> their own. Users are free to do the same. >> >> We have the freedom of choice. The pitfall of this freedom is, that it's >> annoying to care about all the details > > > If you really care about freedom of choice why are you defending a license > that takes that freedom away from you? > > As for myself, my life is to short to even read all end-user licence >> agreements, let alone to entirely understand those I read. If a >> programmer wants to sell software, the business model could be to >> provide easy to understand end-user licence agreements, that give users >> advantages and a free open source code, that gives advantages to >> competitors. >> > > And thats why I use BSD it is easy to understand but does not forbid > anything that makes it possible to make a living. > > >> For artists there is the CreativeCommons, it's a construction kit. For >> coders there are different FLOSS licenses, all with their pros and >> cons. If you remove the different names of those FLOSS licenses, you >> could consider it a construction kit, too, comparable to the >> CreativeCommons construction kit. >> > > OSD sets some minimum requirements for FOSS all of which make impossible to > make a living while using a viral license. > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 14:12:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF702CA85A for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:12:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494FK92wRGz4JBr for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:12:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id f19so5706203iog.5 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:12:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+UuKOZJSyKIwOLldE5tPcDRgqYQQrYKKgxyu7k7l5Tg=; b=I5q0jdfyJ+JlAZfizNl61/oui7scE2lVSs/EYzyQXRNsbVbQdCzP3Yakk7CRQVUCQ6 Ih4RSw6quQxaITSWG9NU/qOPilU5ykZYjoWHQWaj1Sbp+vpqpEneOCL2ro7KF/CwB/NP Cd4m6UJs5n+Ku+LWbCF1gYO1eLmql1boRixcTs7wj9S2g0KfH3GcsDHzA5bv8iCE4XEr kuYUrWehRAV/JZ/zvcbL/pZD4FAa4FJ8alfiZWLGSm0MIR7a1DgDy2GHsBpczP88P8dS jbr9jEYaEYmbKYuBggJ/Yqm+057hNBE0mFn5iu2Eay14yNJsnLJp3IKNuj4p8CXuedi2 bKeA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+UuKOZJSyKIwOLldE5tPcDRgqYQQrYKKgxyu7k7l5Tg=; b=RGxOCkJk2uGSWJdbrXw4kmX6OF33YgruedrlM+Ii6H8XZlxJhDG/FIKOlwPWXMO2eH kee/vTUSbZ0WjfQsRy89OvyniALrOfZG8T1wa13RtPxrx8K5lnTXAX28/CUeCoVJRKOe L0zgrACR9Vh3DLvXDr3VGTxYLRaBsT78c0AZHj4aQJ4PyG4BDNke33J//g8srrwKi8cg 0JTuPXbUakIcjhUHytQrB3tcFFnKZPDjc9cEI6If4z5mMtI04B5GD0v1xEXOkcl5mx3y BmibA7RSFbIb99hOHTOASkHUB9rVkJB1BU73O232WXbaEEnO31e2JOcF6Jw/kGrqHbIV hHww== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZTQ8Wlyvdvr32UtEKhbXXI/EKxilzKxC3k27gQmxK+DW/ogFd7 vzVdNgclygJ1SV1WxvbuqEJXBTtnAAqSHtLKTrwKnJZO5Bs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLaMf1KQjTtWbdDcmfofLk34kH/56mAwo22YGQ84F8xT3ccjb4ZaQ5Tjt2ix7JV18Y/NMr/n5i7ImxsmYIuzt4= X-Received: by 2002:a02:3341:: with SMTP id k1mr8252552jak.74.1587219148008; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 07:12:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:12:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494FK92wRGz4JBr X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=I5q0jdfy; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[9.2.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-5.34), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:12:30 -0000 On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:01 AM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 4/18/20 8:31 AM, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:28 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >>> And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes to > >>> make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. > >> > >> You were already proven wrong! Let alone that you are defeated by a > >> naive miscalculation. > >> > > > > Every so called attempt to prove me wrong proved to be strawmen so please > > explain again the proof in a way that is not easy to show has at least > one > > or more wholes in it. > > > > Business models based on secret recipes don't grant to earn money. Even > >> without "reverse engineering"/" disassembling" the idea could be > >> taken over. > >> > > > > Nor do business models that force you to make every last trade secret > free > > for anyone to use. I don't know if your American or not but in the US > the > > Constitution specifically protects the ability to keep exclusive rights > to > > your work for a reasonable amount of time: "To promote the progress of > > science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and > > inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and > > discoveries." (Article I, Section 8, Clause 8) > > > > Thus I suspect if push came to shove in a legal fight about the legality > of > > GPL forcing third parties that just happen to use a GPL'ed project > > Nope. GPL is not forcing anyone. GPL is just binding contract. You agree > to obey GPL requirements it and before you use GPL licensed code. If you > don't agree, don't use GPL licensed code. That simple. Get yourself a > bit of legal understanding, even on the layman level will do, before > starting to talk legalese. > I thought it was self evident that my comments only applied if you where using GPL'ed stuff. And no GPL is not a binding contract because it fails the "consideration" test of what constitutes a contract (i.e. no money traded hands and thus no contract was formed... the user gave no consideration). See https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract ("The basic elements required for the agreement to be a legally enforceable contract are: mutual assent, expressed by a valid offer and acceptance; adequate consideration; capacity; and legality" ) -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 14:58:59 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842B82CBE02 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:58:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic309-24.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic309-24.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.179.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494GLp1BSWz4MhK for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:58:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: 4l_LQE8VM1k9FSlw9KgvD8PKCc5l3Kc507DWnlJmSOdAUtYwVi63aOFBwlgNuRr gNHiSUOA084MkPxMy3ERxYepbL8Daiji8RVXdd_pi1m1qyHC2CcrmJjGln2EkwAkP3ixEG517pA0 bfaChBQHJ6fkpMtP72JREnuqlz1Hh0g4hN9_M.sQBzKRsYzO4GRUWfGiS6V87AzCxlOcQh_Ew1zB EfTjZ4XPuirIoCw_iEtdb2AbTN4IAJYVH4sQNLaBPrPBZUKUt5trObueZNq3L7IaWdPds8SslPdO b2Hb52VyqbRmmycP6D80PWJjhCqHUbT6MDrYthkH65mDRqiBSvly3pUXP7HU01W8SSDTLOgP572r aRzE0EgvSXgRA4uztpCibCfTsoQoXnv1ClnD.GCetusR0jBCndqdqrlRRYpp8ikCIgJm9OZqqEyL heGyQrYy7Hf7DhYXwAMzlhSvd1brVc3dtlj4wSuE5m.BSnafFl42oPTQ4iClNKNUy04Dlte88rsg t89ou.nGX6KBN14bZbZTpbQ.PBI.a3wBtwfIku0HSbTLbjjPCNH4B9uR3fHLs6jqynDhBOWW1EH6 A8.oO8M937nslUeuJLjLQXExZPhUwcJrVK9hAyfODYBSPnXPWQK8oF2zOTRDY5m5n2KXADRltsB. zrxG3IdUPhkS91.zI58ZBZu5JZ5jKymFBl6A0UyMNFEBgkTHvuJcKksNgPW.3.rzcHyYYMx.OopO clr2q7dkh5R832eZrxyE8aSs_ZlAtP2YMZN7tlCGpmlNuAsUakvNljfU9y3GQFPfyFwj2DqPXEpb 6XYgYPq3ivVbfY6HCQ7KWnB7S1Wumzlzzq6UjC4z_cuu2UhjagCovBYFBDZhcOLInItlGvmR8nLx cessofafzhh03SRxF1xmt9a0AO8enYDSfQ0PZ_N2CDgkrfkgj47yr36vrkFKlS94e3L9J5qxIo_r 9k2XGx4CWhvGyty.fgZZ6eoSxWdlORPwVjLaQlNTfECVhpAS65tTlthTTkVWVZ0QoO_Ok_idX7De kr346m7RLA5B0kusepLB40vMZzzBUxU8Qe8LGcVTo0oOLu6xPyEspowuY7tQgN2ga8dQFuoFTDfz MP66YYTcurdPo79EtmILhHKTrqNJfUWoG8Umrc56_NnLIEl7jMbSIXhXyDFo0mgIUHMBZ8RITsEj DgJ6Efz7ktnHEDBY6AS5IjdgcjLfamOa79L82TR3LEVMa2ritJqC9AFcAdGdxgJf23MRFKuGvgxI h7wNRtJ9dbROmXix28VhuTve6_nBs30QmbuTIyEYxDp5.9nbQHQC_Qrb2qIHMQ9BPd0ybNqQIF5K Om5IO2bMBztE5yvgTd9lzWaZTE.0t4XRsnaSdlOESH1MIVF1tpVHax94fJLc8l7pq1uC8wA2uRqZ OCIp15sR4ACith_5SE49lKO_nNKAwogPQdj3AV3XS2b44jGDg5bMXL.ShpROkwwV9uFK_6Bk- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:58:56 +0000 Received: by smtp424.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID e2deef9550d79ceda1f0ffb163cafe99; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:58:54 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:58:53 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-ID: <20200418165853.79dbdde1@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494GLp1BSWz4MhK X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.17 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.72)[-0.717,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.963,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[82.179.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (6.09), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.14), asn: 34010(1.69), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[82.179.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:58:59 -0000 On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:12:16 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >And no GPL is not a binding contract because it fails the >"consideration" test of what constitutes a contract (i.e. no money >traded hands and thus no contract was formed... the user gave no >consideration). See https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract ("The >basic elements required for the agreement to be a legally enforceable >contract are: mutual assent, expressed by a valid offer and >acceptance; adequate consideration; capacity; and legality" ) "Is the GPL enforceable in law ? At least in Germany, based on our own experience: yes. In recent years, there have also been successful court cases in the United States. We see no evidence to believe it is not enforceable globally." - https://gpl-violations.org/faq/violation-faq/ . http://www.gpl-violations.org/ https://de.wikinews.org/wiki/GPL_setzt_sich_vor_deutschem_Gericht_durch Btw. you are the only one mentioning morality. I mentioned a business model. If you sell electronic products you could follow different business models. One model could be to rasp away labelling on integrated circuits and other components, to make it harder for business rivals to build similar products or harder for pirates to copy your product. Another model could be to not rasp away anything and even to include circuit diagrams to the product content, so your customers are able to maintain the gear, which could be a way to make more money, due to the customer friendliness, than you would earn by fear of business rivals and pirates. For some software the GPL'ed business model is a very good way to gain customer loyalty, hence I provided the Ardour DAW as an example. It's probably not the best business model for everyone. That one business model doesn't fit to everyone, doesn't justify assertions, such as your On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes to >make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. It's utter nonsense! Without doubts MIT, BSD and other licenses are better for some projects, while for other projects GPL could grant a bonus. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 15:27:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2C772CCFCE for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:27:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd43.google.com (mail-io1-xd43.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d43]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494GzG6034z4QSC for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:27:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd43.google.com with SMTP id n10so5856616iom.3 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:27:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PQZ+DbSZ0upF0HrgiraYXEPddwo3/iklSnaDCPvcnX0=; b=MdUNuVWTxoowCs8Lj61IVQING6+Eyk2JyL4cNrYC6FZ3SmzvQvgHwNDDc9z9i0WYbT tf1LJBVIU/T7i6zUSIqBHz3kGv5zu3sdUL3kZD2Ws5lYlDopRU+q5l5qoiKinXYOspaR Y0tnme2smvhToWW8Ug2Dt5FURqAzy0TeOisI08zLI3qUvXtfbnm1ARFR4OzgRmPHRzA1 oBUUMtQpt4Xsj48lGtxIhVKe8ZAbVILDOiX+DsBHpDwu+4LfLP6zMFD37hhwgiE07wf0 9O7tNzVDq8TJVXrnjDf39Y9cG8wIK+Mc6q4Qrdb2rCPtIN0v7nBNgZvo7oSokwvSDMpf MmMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PQZ+DbSZ0upF0HrgiraYXEPddwo3/iklSnaDCPvcnX0=; b=gXkF2bnCq+n+YMh/JQOGChIE+6RLKxGwK7eZERLf7ATSHXO3hBRfTWrjUfikC110yX ExoLiJPwly4gVvMWvtDRiYDX012vxlUYssMY2uWrmC0h+sOSwHe/rr0+p1Vz+Wjvx+uj bJx/WHWWmo8vnzT8PDm4OjyFgff74AaT/e+UlWVNYBAuJvumlJCao0Rrd5eYZLQA1prR SYJu9UyHYQ36yTm+px1vVf/yLxWVIxHNXOC7umNMI1Ht+dSz4dgFsVrFANVP9EPn75GG xJKASVnMVQPbftwWMwiWJ4XYMkSlHafZwQzv30H0GGm8nNQiCRrF/qBN0yDs34sVQoTp MVwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuboawXiN75Jweeg5c3qmRbDPeAZELXCpTcAqbKw8uTv2kRTdZqf OBJwLidlF2GoS5ISfPkjXVV2zLT+o71XOPfmNY3YgMhxmtY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJsz2n1LTKmegJZbWT/0/Y5Qkx5R4xcw0dvxfpt7hq452IY74u2F91cxt5lXZqLy2VWJx3/I71iwr/yAbOqXfU= X-Received: by 2002:a02:cd91:: with SMTP id l17mr8237837jap.34.1587223625607; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:27:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200418165853.79dbdde1@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200418165853.79dbdde1@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:26:54 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494GzG6034z4QSC X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=MdUNuVWT; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d43 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (0.20), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:27:07 -0000 On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:59 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:12:16 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >And no GPL is not a binding contract because it fails the > >"consideration" test of what constitutes a contract (i.e. no money > >traded hands and thus no contract was formed... the user gave no > >consideration). See https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract ("The > >basic elements required for the agreement to be a legally enforceable > >contract are: mutual assent, expressed by a valid offer and > >acceptance; adequate consideration; capacity; and legality" ) > > "Is the GPL enforceable in law ? > > At least in Germany, based on our own experience: yes. In recent years, > there have also been successful court cases in the United States. We > see no evidence to believe it is not enforceable globally." - > https://gpl-violations.org/faq/violation-faq/ . > > http://www.gpl-violations.org/ > https://de.wikinews.org/wiki/GPL_setzt_sich_vor_deutschem_Gericht_durch > > Btw. you are the only one mentioning morality. I mentioned a business > model. > > If you sell electronic products you could follow different business > models. One model could be to rasp away labelling on integrated > circuits and other components, to make it harder for business rivals to > build similar products or harder for pirates to copy your > product. Another model could be to not rasp away anything and even to > include circuit diagrams to the product content, so your customers are > able to maintain the gear, which could be a way to make more money, due > to the customer friendliness, than you would earn by fear of business > rivals and pirates. > Very different then software since to build the hardware you still need to buy the materials (with real money not karma) and thus unless you want to end up in the poor house there is a certain minimal amount you or anyone else making the hardware must charge. Where is with software except for the (trivial) amount time it takes to make a copy of it there is zero per unit cost to making it (assuming it is downloadable). That assumes your not the original author, if you are the original author then you have the opportunity cost of the original R&D that needs to be covered somehow. Either it is covered by some organization (or rich friend) who is willing to donate the needed resources or out of the wallet of the programmer(s). In the case of small developers it is almost the second of the two. That is where morals comes in due to it being a unsustainable business model and asking/telling anyone it is sustainable is an dishonest and unethical (as well being immoral). See link below where the FreeBSD foundation says just that "A less publicized and unintended use of the GPL is that it is very favorable to large companies that want to undercut software companies. In other words, the GPL is well suited for use as a marketing weapon, potentially reducing overall economic benefit and contributing to monopolistic behavior.... The GPL can present a real problem for those wishing to commercialize and profit from software. For example, the GPL adds to the difficulty a graduate student will have in directly forming a company to commercialize his research results, or the difficulty a student will have in joining a company on the assumption that a promising research project will be commercialized." [second and third paragraphs of section 9]. Also if you want to know more about the interplay between business/markets and morality you might want to read my dad's book on the matter "Morals and Markets" (Daniel Friedman, Palgrave, 2008, ISBN: 0230600972 ... not to be confused with Milton Friedman's "Markets and Morals"). Much of what he says about the economics of open source are based on my experience and those of his CS grad assistants in his experimental micro-econ work. Summary GPL like licenses are economically not viable in the long run but BSD like ones are. > > For some software the GPL'ed business model is a very good way to gain > customer loyalty, hence I provided the Ardour DAW as an example. It's > probably not the best business model for everyone. That one business > model doesn't fit to everyone, doesn't justify assertions, such as your > Like I said I am not the only one saying this see the FreeBSD Foundation's article below. > > On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes to > >make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. > > It's utter nonsense! Without doubts MIT, BSD and other licenses are > better for some projects, while for other projects GPL could grant a > bonus. > Not according to the FreeBSD foundation who recommends against GPL in almost all cases. https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/bsdl-gpl/article.html (see sections 9 and 10) -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 15:41:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FD22CD59F for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:41:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494HJ81Bzjz4RWN for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:41:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id f2so5299674ilq.7 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:41:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=maH8trr9x0CkIpkPJYz6jPAKcl2zcXI+yxjWRzkJXAA=; b=tGdv5KncQgORXRxOrL+AMlUDOVAaWG6/qimlwKB8qLVLCx435RYyotfs3YArFD5CQG LekdDh0IqDJJ+Dx72DmE134k+az0KJPPV+XxhFSXHq9eUuq2NSZtsg/6Czlm0lPZJp9o q+KbZpyRll/tQhEzgPE2AW48EZiwA/+5AvGFUsSjIborZfnyALIYJkfs9IlJaKxx85Hx uG7UWV5k5NRZXL8hxLdy60VoTBD4CDBCl0IA9bgUqbEiIL6T6w71NG/Vel5Le4sdr/Cz iucwuiAVCi47Svqz+ATlgy0Q7wlju4EUbb5H9wwIsU1fQz6uCUok2Haigg4e0T/oelcF SbqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=maH8trr9x0CkIpkPJYz6jPAKcl2zcXI+yxjWRzkJXAA=; b=WSJ2dShq+hzQf/U5re8neB4bquBTBJQ/kDw6NwJNicqB6506KiRJpEIRTjFTP28pQC FQI+B7kdyTyYu1x1AdpcJBD30zWFdDNGnYObPu3e3i8n/HQoRmqscUZKYjq4jLTsOWnh Aemc/qyuDpry2SQDuAtVpH6geD6cLxPs0+IKAoSekzLo+GxmiZsJJHwxoxtArxvaxbWH XJgLRm99KCKZ0IKPFqowIahHXHiyt0WY0fjLRAOKcVHtMdfOP3+OwsKTiVWMT6Ur47Sh HEaNFqVDu3DJYVo1ntanQOxJDp/VbbXJDt4HrtdeRU5ijq/OcaWcAvFifTWviLBux3F0 jnCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubA9xGCYwsFxMAErC9Nx5Jrd+WMB5f60kB2Fyc+rubs+Oak9VfG jGlch5x1z5xlw3j0SnZDhpD9HYsFY3BZzumTUu8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLDmiGbpzAKqsaxDCl6gXKXI54M1M4Wh+H+01/1kUODFNCLhIf2UQW6qK1wilnrZ7OYv3V8JsWJ4Zq8FiA23NQ= X-Received: by 2002:a92:9a8a:: with SMTP id c10mr8034962ill.187.1587224503053; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 08:41:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200418165853.79dbdde1@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200418165853.79dbdde1@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:41:31 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494HJ81Bzjz4RWN X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=tGdv5Knc; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-8.55), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.3.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:41:45 -0000 On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:59 AM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:12:16 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >And no GPL is not a binding contract because it fails the > >"consideration" test of what constitutes a contract (i.e. no money > >traded hands and thus no contract was formed... the user gave no > >consideration). See https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/contract ("The > >basic elements required for the agreement to be a legally enforceable > >contract are: mutual assent, expressed by a valid offer and > >acceptance; adequate consideration; capacity; and legality" ) > > "Is the GPL enforceable in law ? > > At least in Germany, based on our own experience: yes. In recent years, > there have also been successful court cases in the United States. We > see no evidence to believe it is not enforceable globally." - > https://gpl-violations.org/faq/violation-faq/ . > Not according to wikipedia which says it is an enforceable *LICENSE* and *AGREEMENT* but it is not a contract. FSF does not claim it is a contract (they claim the opposite) and with good reason it gives them and the person who licensed stuff under a stronger case since it is a federal (copyright infringement) and not a state issue. Note in the US unlike most countries the states (provinces) have widely varying laws and the one court that found it to be a contract was using a non-standard commercial code (not the Uniform Commercial Code used by a majority of states) thus it is not clear how it applies to UCC states (or states with different customized codes). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Legal_status -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 16:24:46 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2309B2CE3CE for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:24:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic312-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic312-26.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.97]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494JFm4WKJz4VKR for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:24:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: iXrE6EUVM1ns0CgCGb4CWZkYTT3UQu5vKpMAHT7QUmCXpb8RGA.s8fZiCCB1vV6 t10_CjWnT0oVyZgdy9k8jABsd2aKGvAyZ7cNpxr8IOnt.rWJePS_Xua62fMpym3eGqeJSNmXJVB_ LTUPxWdtzRA9iHPTYqEhuMJRR0svGlqrMkThEniSE.CuDhOCap8sLXO0hEpdP7lIClus0BkxBkKl 9i3iMNo2I31PrhZbEYYafogZRiQzJwKhRynblAhP2LkhmHUDZhiVBZ0qjh0PS11A3hk0ztJD6nIB 3bAOj9U87yJu4AYNZ9Ag4SqkEPDHjCZgqBTGOmQ4YlqDeyxYyg4BMGi6B6Km3nc2Z5FelhL_farC OP290ZhinyEqB2uJik9kRksZjS_49W8zqZrKNe4nj39xkyAgL5yEhYxbAZX3GRkhglU7kAsMI3h_ RzDH_kKZ6A8Pm3cwtxcHYKO8RnleNi8Y8pzAgeqdt3B1n9onxYpgjjRR6R0uQaRzcCxYk2jCQTWb qLdWgMw7e8BfyWLUfJwZ8NHkagfPWW1Q8BvTgFY8x8xJXpEeuAyDd93P6zd5RvYXtLP.dRUi1ANf Hl0jVz4.O4FPtZAESS6v42HANY5VQXwAKi9cVok92VjyWn3xGcAgydZQ82ZdgjDf9wCUeFbM43ga rNdcAqMloVolWZ5yPDLN_x16_xGbkOYGo1W5GImNU6zapWkmQjzVuCB0.LrQw8CtBiMaTPQqOULh y269J2zP3s1sQtZghUM6nmJ5cwp4EIpUyipTDJAKKFXAsAny9UQv4zGe4F1xJ.0fOs1rEd_yLHkm FIVfOOIH0AfWwvGTCAh9UT48ECbMSb1F8UP2HxLgMOfr8dOoxaE.V7bU8L99n7_JF79DDPoLE2Be uvHqaHhBnJ5MJAiH90zFE4nPhp7hH0tx5nWYVwNPi.X7NetsFvRUr0nvqFHWHZcQNAfnY3dzmHQ8 Ymsco.rO8FDAo6FfPENVXCvlluC4D7MelyGOJFzozZ.zNnzj3c7BzkCK6kLzXeJz9eantqwTkH7E RTO_MzE9_DfCrXYkuKDsjDqEKohn62cFLc3wqzUzrDstVpfwjk3utA33i1UVSHjf4QDvtDyVnEaP IJGIifRDw3GI85aGKRIo8D_fzW9es0_IEb92J5qzntQBACI.wTpyvjKV31qBEFOIKQXtL2EvRw1C g1WZbVxzc5e8_tbXCKp4QgkkS3TrR.LLe9QcBTRqaD3QDUSc.Jq1RKg9gCaVB7So_DJQxkpjSwT_ JTN0zA3KpXKoJcJXTU9IUZmYJa6s13htx_hOYfE.yfqKWKKFyStUFEP_Eh4AhIKAacRqmcU5YHEg XH8b7zbQa0Gr3TL0mtsUcGFt5ZbuG87EVN5bnaUMuzjyOEE5ku7Y6fQEE3nsecs2e25JfHHIku.I Sy_g1KXIIuFU- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:24:42 +0000 Received: by smtp429.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8b9633fecc6c13a9db69d7e423070558; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:24:37 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:24:37 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-ID: <20200418182437.037869c8@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200418165853.79dbdde1@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494JFm4WKJz4VKR X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.19 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.74)[-0.736,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.963,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[97.178.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[97.178.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (3.32), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.14), asn: 34010(1.69), country: GB(-0.07)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:24:46 -0000 On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:26:54 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> >And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes >> >to make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. >> >> It's utter nonsense! Without doubts MIT, BSD and other licenses are >> better for some projects, while for other projects GPL could grant a >> bonus. > >Not according to the FreeBSD foundation who recommends against GPL in >almost all cases. >https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/bsdl-gpl/article.html >(see sections 9 and 10) They do not use the terms "absolute" and "ever". Btw. if there are already a lot of GPL licensed libraries and kernel abilities available for a project of some domain, that are not available by such an amount, if at all by another licensed infrastructure, it could become very expensive to create the required infrastructure. Those who make a living from whatever licensed software probably have reasons to chose a particular license. Some probably chose the wrong license by mistake, other chose a license that is good for them and their customers. I can't see that you are that successful with your business, as the coder of Ardour is with his business. That might be a wrong conclusion, let alone that the software license not necessarily is the reason for more or less success. However, you are seemingly not programming in all domains, but you don't restrain from generalizing. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 16:38:45 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30EF42CE74C for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) Received: from sonic308-18.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (sonic308-18.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com [77.238.178.146]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494JYv6zsnz4W1D for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ralf.mardorf@rocketmail.com) X-YMail-OSG: WnzY8YwVM1kOEwtaj_VQYCYv2cmkh6Ng9bZd49dhQ4YTYHfmhkYXmqoVybDvnZ3 E7e2NwzQL2H7N2sQj68_MyZewceezs5i3ssZr7T_DxDxacfsMUfJL8z02yntBYyKRcgh_enqkufV O292Ws43ANAN334TrE8lP8rejyLflPgMMWwyU5AAn746tPXA19KzfhFUM_QAZY18COMbEqkxezFr sLA0F58j8QBC12s7hcQlZ1m.DIDLfgBrgnj_WBF7Zqium2Nopg_iwO.h2xeMEkBYh2A7qEUz53Di 1c7iq9_wlfeX_L95vpgawkmj9OpftEqVuP52WOpj7AqnB6EkB4V7AbPRADbwrAkAgkVntMh1xRbW H0tJ0wGomP2wOhLDkFCXpCeg0KXdf_wR5rCU7G66NtyjBTi4_Ssmte2Y1lIFFfj8qg.15Zsn6ryy JTa3_y.2.gI2SNDBNQ8FoZtVN6TTNiHL4S6wVGwIklzeMxq3amrRxropU_Ol_y1hrHuqtZRxTpak 3FhaYj8h22.cra26Fkux46pZ67ObLTzo2xzru1hsr6qF1k_lftXn6NBAWWTCIijvQcFpwkLZB46N Z0h2wW5E7tQv9mdmW9BmB02MlGxLSD7SmW1gBcWcSy57jUCLlkHuPCrD30A0o.ofmONWcy64eEEh uwRgATc7C8QiAbKDCWpuqdOv6Vrh860h0ih.y_l69wS1YnixW_ezBzvsR96zpnVf40ekP5WkCIHD Hrog6w9jlrigeaT2XqVs_q.9mkzdFok60V_Wuog9RFJ3mhC4VW91kilNPH.4hx8bkudcbVne5hLT zWqSsbr1yE1a92RCPMfCnqivVNzVUW0gImIkRSDWS_ohD8aG4CoQjx4.Pj7N.JL3HHz1Milf80tG 8UaMZVUPoJKMjdUqShrUZ7NyGlDQpj8ti6DmXK2PCoXc.ItuGdH7SRTQFprd9aB7L0CqYhr1sVDm pTjsEZWqQ1hhaA0diI0oqvgtaq7D_8Gr0ntwDwihlSvzdtfeda6e0M5Cf7Ck384ErQ67lWcCvNNV KJl3ALzm67.eD2ZujX4GDNXDDPkfjJfXwPSUFpVoz.BmmLKZHw9V.LRXzW6hGcD8ZRlR2ls5zzzo Agb0TUpvzpTRHZDTy.XjQ.n11unidFUmMuOyq5tbmlnT5ytUhsmy8m6X8jDi.ebEPearcSAEVCS5 DQ0aithHQukx1EsxbaUtXomBhQ1_jlK18MhOVL.eN.rRrlXCxWk3qluikbCpnkWvFpsUg1cdCv2E vImgnE63sc3NxBs5E2RvDHSpy0W3kv9kN43omuykLEHeCT1LaAa2UMNA2CQcmPt_CJsoJrMypeta 8QC1121fKGsLgxlDbPa4qQnSxIgpF83hzD8IejQOrSJF2tDhOdcfsB4fBXGlYKiCaY6JJAfbdoX1 aU58KQhrP_A-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:42 +0000 Received: by smtp421.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 011098bcbe6c86d4dcbef5c669a24ce1; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:39 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:38:39 +0200 From: Ralf Mardorf To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture Message-ID: <20200418183839.0d4c56c1@archlinux> In-Reply-To: References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200418165853.79dbdde1@archlinux> X-Mailer: Claws Mail (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494JYv6zsnz4W1D X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.15 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.70)[-0.701,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[rocketmail.com:s=s2048]; XM_UA_NO_VERSION(0.01)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.96)[-0.962,0]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[rocketmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[rocketmail.com,reject]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[146.178.238.77.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (5.81), ipnet: 77.238.176.0/22(2.14), asn: 34010(1.69), country: GB(-0.07)]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[146.178.238.77.rep.mailspike.net : 127.0.0.17]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:45 -0000 This discussion leads to "absolutely" nothing. I quit! --=20 =E2=80=9CAwards are merely the badges of mediocrity.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=95 Charles Ives From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 17:08:57 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDDE2CF85F for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:08:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494KDn03Fvz4YRr for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:08:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id y17so6019293iow.9 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:08:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8muMY9PKRn/snYR/0wEAe8kwk4WDhbM2ozHcCj+rSdQ=; b=tOmlqBROUC+FQj2OW/XhbylHSDdvcJ9rGgH4zUKhHsGrGSJirEGS1ASnnU6MCNMw7H hDXxLgA7y31z+PvjF5ofNdsZvfViK5Abcx8QHtm2VknJKbS4/Ce7e3lXFNRDgOzTgtWN 53TbxF617WJMrWn8CeZ33V0KUNdqQy5oO2Dk8atid/ed71lB175JpkqM12G5dxvpj6PR xKfkIIf87aRaPlmD5cBmrrecUQ4Mp+f0NEVxLGozyMtFYM84XPL1wUe0STDJfy25yU3C zf1jy/6AXgJM3mWBev9VSmtWOWI54HdkM+PKNXYnEHeqhkbH1wve+V559yrNWFtORGRX KayA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8muMY9PKRn/snYR/0wEAe8kwk4WDhbM2ozHcCj+rSdQ=; b=dgao/NKYDnu5kiIwxMwz3zbxC8w3Ma3g3c+cJmR7JSdcL2q+dZLW67TaTWA+QG5w3e 7Jx6woFDAv2oUocg0ZnAMxfen0+WxeDcRSQUs1NiSOtx5Fc9WZPPX4A9SJbL0jPgQWpr gGZc/tio7Pl1iukTIyDfg6JDN8dI+6kGoEWjGeRUL/1i/iz7hbVhn/Hl+dApfBI8EEFa rye4eDK5nvgM3HatbDSzpKKJ4SZBvqJts2117u/cplMpg3x1gP8upWxjKRdBDKjLATXN 1gQvX9+ziw7imrAfE7GI2GZN5IlXgnbxNg2FBUJIs0BgDG8E9bLgqBQjiNKKCyAMBZec c9Cw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubmXugPjXaUa127pWeq/WEL+J7Akb7q0Gz+L0widu2S0X7scIAg i5pgyQfb8N0fACgL8DzRKbHdOB4wgEcSCaab0coP9BehZ9I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK9lEZtK+1NpBpDknfQT3YRZPYuLe6ErUfCid7+7wW03zOOJvqHJI1gQ1A+okgfr6T+57ldRn9l+OQU9qt1jew= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:85d7:: with SMTP id e23mr8627629ios.174.1587229735704; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:08:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200418165853.79dbdde1@archlinux> <20200418182437.037869c8@archlinux> In-Reply-To: <20200418182437.037869c8@archlinux> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:08:44 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: Ralf Mardorf Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494KDn03Fvz4YRr X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=tOmlqBRO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.00 / 15.00]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[9]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[rocketmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.00)[ip: (-5.33), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; IP_SCORE_FREEMAIL(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2.3.d.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:08:57 -0000 On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 12:24 PM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:26:54 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > >> >And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes > >> >to make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. > >> > >> It's utter nonsense! Without doubts MIT, BSD and other licenses are > >> better for some projects, while for other projects GPL could grant a > >> bonus. > > > >Not according to the FreeBSD foundation who recommends against GPL in > >almost all cases. > > > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/bsdl-gpl/article.html > >(see sections 9 and 10) > > They do not use the terms "absolute" and "ever". > Maybe since English is not your native language then some of the subtle context is lost but to a native speaker they say just that but much subtler way (but is unmistakable what their preference is) while recognizing for historical reasons some stuff has to stay GPL. See the -hackers@ and -current@ lists if you want to see a huge amount of effort to remove as much GPL code in the base system as possible. > > Btw. if there are already a lot of GPL licensed libraries and kernel > abilities available for a project of some domain, that are not > available by such an amount, if at all by another licensed > infrastructure, it could become very expensive to create the required > infrastructure. > That's one reason why the ports collection exists to cleanly divorce the stuff that is hard to remove GPL from what is critical to the core of the OS. Also /usr/src/contrib is where all stuff that cannot cleanly be used under BSD goes to make it clear it is legally separate then the rest of the base system (legally no different than RH or any other Linux dist does when they combine many works from different licenses into a packaged OS). > Those who make a living from whatever licensed software probably have > reasons to chose a particular license. Some probably chose the wrong > license by mistake, other chose a license that is good for them and > their customers. > Some of them are forced to pick the wrong license due to the libraries that are required for their work (this is my #1 objection to GPL). This is the main reason I am so ardent in calling GPL "evil". > I can't see that you are that successful with your business, as the > coder of Ardour is with his business. That might be a wrong conclusion, > let alone that the software license not necessarily is the reason for > more or less success. However, you are seemingly not programming in all > domains, but you don't restrain from generalizing. > 1. Do some research before drawing conclusions if you did you would see over the 30 years of my career I have worked in many different domains of software development. 2. Since almost all my current work is covered by NDA's forced on me by clients (I would prefer not to have them) there is no way you can judge or not judge how successful I am 3. Are you a developer? If not, you likely don't understand the economics of software development as well as you think you do According to the Wikipedia article on Ardour, it's primary author was hired by a hardware company to work full time on Ardour. This is consistent with the claim I have made throughout the entire thread that it is impossible to work on GPL'ed projects and make a living unless your are subsidized by some organization whose primary business is not the software but complements the software. For example hardware companies love open-source because it makes their hardware more useful to their customers (they are not software companies). This does not translate to a software only company, for self evident reasons, nor to a company that requires one-off custom software for its primary business (such as many medical applications). If you want to pick a better example of a successful open source project that makes money I would say you should go with firefox (which is successful, via donations, due to overwhelming critical mass not because people would buy it if it was commercial) > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 17:18:24 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE85C2CFC62 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:18:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from kicp.uchicago.edu (kicp.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.70]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494KRh1VTCz4Z9K for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:18:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu) Received: from [192.168.43.113] (unknown [172.58.139.171]) (Authenticated sender: galtsev) by kicp.uchicago.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 855664E66F for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:18:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> <681077991.2278153.1587146552233@mail.yahoo.com> <20200417213025.16ba5877.freebsd@edvax.de> <1659102270.119843446.1587168373188.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20200418092801.20d10f5b@archlinux> <4bc4b613-50a7-4890-61e8-5ed5037b07dc@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200418165853.79dbdde1@archlinux> <20200418182437.037869c8@archlinux> From: Valeri Galtsev Message-ID: <6017bc7a-80e1-3afe-24ba-14502607e06c@kicp.uchicago.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:18:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494KRh1VTCz4Z9K X-Spamd-Bar: +++++++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=uchicago.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.135.20.70) smtp.mailfrom=galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [7.20 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[uchicago.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[171.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.10]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_XBL(5.00)[171.139.58.172.khpj7ygk5idzvmvt5x4ziurxhy.zen.dq.spamhaus.net : 127.0.0.4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[0.998,0]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; IP_SCORE(0.11)[ip: (0.30), ipnet: 128.135.0.0/16(0.15), asn: 160(0.12), country: US(-0.05)]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000,0]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[70.20.135.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:160, ipnet:128.135.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,meta]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-Spam: Yes X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:18:25 -0000 As Ralf did, I gave up too. This whole thread sounded like trolling to me. Could we, please, have this thread stopped for good? Valeri On 4/18/20 12:08 PM, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 12:24 PM Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions < > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> wrote: > >> On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:26:54 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 20:50:09 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >>>>> And here goes the *ABSOLUTE* reason why no developer who ever hopes >>>>> to make any money at all from their work should *EVER* use GPL. >>>> >>>> It's utter nonsense! Without doubts MIT, BSD and other licenses are >>>> better for some projects, while for other projects GPL could grant a >>>> bonus. >>> >>> Not according to the FreeBSD foundation who recommends against GPL in >>> almost all cases. >>> >> https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/bsdl-gpl/article.html >>> (see sections 9 and 10) >> >> They do not use the terms "absolute" and "ever". >> > > Maybe since English is not your native language then some of the subtle > context is lost but to a native speaker they say just that but much subtler > way (but is unmistakable what their preference is) while recognizing for > historical reasons some stuff has to stay GPL. See the -hackers@ and > -current@ lists if you want to see a huge amount of effort to remove as > much GPL code in the base system as possible. > > >> >> Btw. if there are already a lot of GPL licensed libraries and kernel >> abilities available for a project of some domain, that are not >> available by such an amount, if at all by another licensed >> infrastructure, it could become very expensive to create the required >> infrastructure. >> > > That's one reason why the ports collection exists to cleanly divorce the > stuff that is hard to remove GPL from what is critical to the core of the > OS. Also /usr/src/contrib is where all stuff that cannot cleanly be used > under BSD goes to make it clear it is legally separate then the rest of the > base system (legally no different than RH or any other Linux dist does when > they combine many works from different licenses into a packaged OS). > > >> Those who make a living from whatever licensed software probably have >> reasons to chose a particular license. Some probably chose the wrong >> license by mistake, other chose a license that is good for them and >> their customers. >> > > Some of them are forced to pick the wrong license due to the libraries that > are required for their work (this is my #1 objection to GPL). This is the > main reason I am so ardent in calling GPL "evil". > > >> I can't see that you are that successful with your business, as the >> coder of Ardour is with his business. That might be a wrong conclusion, >> let alone that the software license not necessarily is the reason for >> more or less success. However, you are seemingly not programming in all >> domains, but you don't restrain from generalizing. >> > > 1. Do some research before drawing conclusions if you did you would see > over the 30 years of my career I have worked in many different domains of > software development. > > 2. Since almost all my current work is covered by NDA's forced on me by > clients (I would prefer not to have them) there is no way you can judge or > not judge how successful I am > > 3. Are you a developer? If not, you likely don't understand the economics > of software development as well as you think you do > > According to the Wikipedia article on Ardour, it's primary author was hired > by a hardware company to work full time on Ardour. This is consistent > with the claim I have made throughout the entire thread that it is > impossible to work on GPL'ed projects and make a living unless your are > subsidized by some organization whose primary business is not the software > but complements the software. For example hardware companies love > open-source because it makes their hardware more useful to their customers > (they are not software companies). This does not translate to a software > only company, for self evident reasons, nor to a company that requires > one-off custom software for its primary business (such as many medical > applications). > > If you want to pick a better example of a successful open source project > that makes money I would say you should go with firefox (which is > successful, via donations, due to overwhelming critical mass not because > people would buy it if it was commercial) > > >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 17:19:22 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81AB72CFDF6 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:19:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494KSn315Bz4ZKd for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:19:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03IHIoeT002390 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:18:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) To: FreeBSD Mailing List From: Tim Daneliuk Subject: Changes To nat-ing Behaviour? Message-ID: <0e61aeb7-03ff-6016-3f23-1b00630b4af6@tundraware.com> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:18:44 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:18:50 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 03IHIoeT002390 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-2.074, required 1, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, AWL 0.83, BAYES_00 -1.90) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494KSn315Bz4ZKd X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tundra@tundraware.com designates 45.55.60.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tundra@tundraware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.06)[-0.060,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.66)[-0.657,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.59)[ip: (-1.22), ipnet: 45.55.32.0/19(2.97), asn: 14061(1.26), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:19:22 -0000 I recently upgraded a FBSD 11.3 machine to -STABLE as of a few weeks ago. This machine acts as a firewall and nats between the outside world and an internal nonroutable network. Configuration is stable and has not changed in years. Today I noted that speeds on the LAN side are about half of what is available going out to the internet. I eliminated cables, interfaces, and switches and confirmed that - even if I plug a machine directly into the FBSD nat box, I get half the speed that box gets out to the net. I'm at a loss since I've changed nothing in the config. Ideas would be most appreciated. TIA, -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 17:52:06 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0CF82A8A0E for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:52:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494LBY3ry6z4cXW for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:52:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id 20so6066257qkl.10 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:52:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FJ4VpEGvVK0/dg73/1zpqevMkszSxo+M0E4IGoM+lOo=; b=YIuXNwDfd5A/qr3/L1AaWhQz1N/BifONc4+8Wbmuw5LHSaZ4VqwnFVfVExVtKF0TYK 8Z4nUF4PN55/8aMU0o3zVRoTzPk1gs0tlyQYhwWm/1SEbGUlmGc4Mtt18hnrgvUs1XxY PZH+zAIwkuJeZlgBxth8/9UIdMeqZp2k67YyK5v6wYmNqWBhJG8q0hq0yyjc18Dx9mFe a2WSLXKvefwfkKTjuosdSOSWsWAKZVWayieijibc7FlZEKz7+1y9CwgT7mCR6swW15AA iRgwCKmpN5cEU9JJOPl1+/Juod1I5rrh2lQhbIDj/tYNFf107uB8LwnKsyEdUNnfGUOx dvNA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FJ4VpEGvVK0/dg73/1zpqevMkszSxo+M0E4IGoM+lOo=; b=NwLFKvtj1bMGTt6FFgQGwyWoLc0qoJjLV3AZKjvYBFyUIyimlYl1WegDUkm7qjS8H9 laVKzegr5q3OQe9UL52VISFS+r7XI9qBX3Y0Ydz6KbT+blACavsyO2+Z00amT1Qapt87 kJcplxpCG/20UQnBJ2LRiyiRtHzX5XMV2yOw5TKivTbYYLH/gartuE2byG+fof2at2oy QqFtuIg3efT2s555NObFgEzafb3zpB6a6yQ+G7m9W5bVf9HlZoq0R0lK7HEtGNhjz7u9 2dwvCsQqkDPhsn/XdcjHzWzGEA59o+uNFvST3K/6ipB0Fgqef4q+l/Ns91Mr8c4wmkYV xSsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua6nVfQVi3B5ICPh18PkC0bZSfXmt5WrkfUH5x+j3bt8hvY9Owi wEIlxKRQcgHzkzYylSTyTQj0G/ymdw5m8Zj8aVTSHi6hxc0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJ1bl+knYF+PF46LN8oObs4eaQhzXchWJElc0LlQnKWjlpZrUWe1EROXOGs+QQHgHBFZfGWYNSRbsFmTf/3O38= X-Received: by 2002:a37:c0d:: with SMTP id 13mr8844688qkm.25.1587232324179; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:52:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0e61aeb7-03ff-6016-3f23-1b00630b4af6@tundraware.com> In-Reply-To: <0e61aeb7-03ff-6016-3f23-1b00630b4af6@tundraware.com> From: Michael Sierchio Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:51:28 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Changes To nat-ing Behaviour? To: Tim Daneliuk Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494LBY3ry6z4cXW X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=YIuXNwDf; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of kudzu@tenebras.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::731) smtp.mailfrom=kudzu@tenebras.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.29 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.99)[ip: (-9.13), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tenebras.com]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tenebras-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.7.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 17:52:06 -0000 Showing your ruleset would allow us to comment meaningfully. On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:19 AM Tim Daneliuk wrote= : > I recently upgraded a FBSD 11.3 machine to -STABLE as of a few weeks ago. > > This machine acts as a firewall and nats between the outside world > and an internal nonroutable network. > > Configuration is stable and has not changed in years. > > Today I noted that speeds on the LAN side are about half of what is > available > going out to the internet. > > I eliminated cables, interfaces, and switches and confirmed that - even i= f > I plug a machine directly into the FBSD nat box, I get half the speed tha= t > box gets out to the net. > > I'm at a loss since I've changed nothing in the config. > > Ideas would be most appreciated. > > TIA, > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- > Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com > PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > --=20 "Well," Brahm=C4=81 said, "even after ten thousand explanations, a fool is = no wiser, but an intelligent person requires only two thousand five hundred." - The Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 20:12:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9752AC0A5 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:12:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oi1-x230.google.com (mail-oi1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494PJ70048z3LCG for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:12:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oi1-x230.google.com with SMTP id r25so5352058oij.4 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:12:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ib6p1JmvJK6oGaQJt4yKb9rvJRRcl/R+mOzOe7zRxMs=; b=HYwdOiQmQDasgHIm34KsFpbHCCF6hra0cyea/z3xaSeSuqwjCrUVJlXI687zO4otgW CzhAes9GFNJxYnaQ5WLg0mi16Ol93UFyTeUL8TKPoLYGGf6KXEFEoje9T2nUxzQgC6xu 3ey7QYSvfTZRDERGa8RI29W7PLUAedge5JvSHpa+7OlyhxEhyeYRelxwhw2SoUdsEG3w vr+nJXQuFueDXGH3M9Gn9kQJwbwPcF/mWvcWymyYo6V7OntJIIhAy3Oimq4pzXFsR5aP PQ/T+la1bufJfhaMnD7IF/5pU0CEt6K8tLpUty8DJVy99lKf53o9ZiO93gV5RmzyXi7H W6fg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ib6p1JmvJK6oGaQJt4yKb9rvJRRcl/R+mOzOe7zRxMs=; b=DtSFDOoYF+SWEEzddtNtN1W/c5YRSv1Fs4M8EBaAMNhSVmuntGQpDT3+mBcUq5z7oP Rlo2d1Ov2jOnkkQ7bS+KMQQM3WtqvQqYyThHVEac5UUcGqZHUktLcr5r0ICtXo+jn9zV zekoidzPmO2nH96SMmd/45Bpu6Fjdbm5T3frYr2Jo/gs+HjLPBtcGe5xs6IuQak/28i/ HhtwMsNjsw+ilVnxqpX64ODU3CRUgnh5BHPkmPFWqcF/eaX7ChPuolMSAY/jtf8Cxikq si0JkpQGju4dKkW6Cy65eLlyOmO/GoKNkmM4x9gBGMWdTzXNAZ8VELcAQe4KZWJI9qX9 SnWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua856oWCar8U+RraMSAIKcp7EuwC19+bku59oTTbbinf8SoDOu/ Jt3faYYTJUVSCfemFlQwpWKiUHsJNuQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypL2jCzbUNMAMeBrgeRbi6G09goque3diUxxYKRD0duzcQ6EQXEz8PsUZlFZMS4pAE1v0ZH+Vg== X-Received: by 2002:aca:2801:: with SMTP id 1mr5978308oix.141.1587240725715; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-f175.google.com (mail-oi1-f175.google.com. [209.85.167.175]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r10sm1371802otn.70.2020.04.18.13.12.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-f175.google.com with SMTP id s202so5351674oih.3; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:12:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:aca:f4d0:: with SMTP id s199mr5990511oih.161.1587240724727; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:12:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> <24c43065-527d-499b-282a-43df2a947a1d@gmail.com> <4b1e583e-3dd2-2977-913a-63e37a16a9d6@daemonic.se> In-Reply-To: <4b1e583e-3dd2-2977-913a-63e37a16a9d6@daemonic.se> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 22:11:35 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Niclas Zeising Cc: Jan Beich , Theron , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494PJ70048z3LCG X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=HYwdOiQm; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::230) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[0.3.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.78)[ip: (-8.09), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:12:07 -0000 On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:36 AM Niclas Zeising wrote: > You should be able to get this with drm-kmod as the kernel driver and > the modesetting xorg-server driver, everything except OpenCL, at least. > For AMDGPU you might still want to use xf86-video-amdgpu instead of > modesetting, if you prefer. I am using drm-kmod for both intel and amdgpu, thank you for you work! :-) Do you know when OpenCL support may show up? That would be highly desired to speed up complex computations :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 20:19:33 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2962AC52D for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:19:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494PSg6qmnz3Lx7 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:19:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id k133so5325188oih.12 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:19:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dLk7HSIOdtvCu42j8nbRxnZi+sshJcyy8EAsNW8OY4U=; b=ANYSTp9S/rsqq00bwxUnGlr3X445/pUvdfBo7Ggr42kR6cvhKFsM6mrkd25YKUmaOd uYHDlfYdgS7S5vgXGBnVe96XyT3ZQC43VUlc4M+UV8M6gWbvRyr1ox5zz97j5ZcB4JVO 1IAecWJZGAavrefytURTEBTudJAypaKJPBr4DUiKIK37cvmExpUyq31moADy3lrqbTkk 7aycM7z49R/SgESA+NC1dLULOyQmRUOnmz0exgAawddKrvlxmT5pou6zkmLGyMNHW5BO FfgCV/grZjWygDNeGI+vL4iZQKjyGW5yunZvJ3fPayF7tgcHyWRpY5gIDEn2C/8nspb+ Tesw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dLk7HSIOdtvCu42j8nbRxnZi+sshJcyy8EAsNW8OY4U=; b=KKpBl6tUwPanRjALtGBYnT94KbGQvjml8AZmxzwjK/L8j5gyPe7A845iszfA0a1pc2 l2po4Yfq9rqhJSZsNYTBHzV2ALfyM3su1zNtlyGPLxh6tK/Sec42rT/7eww4LQ2wX6Gg CQVieBEGio3KzIfRZtAP4RDJmRWRmmhVHLZMg7XS50wwrAcTLpIstyH+TArxmOTgiE0r bOVffsLie/Q9xba1agznigP/o2dg6ie9aq50skKhS6MuM6b1PiDdXu3S5PFj4qZDntlk rLSdKRdCDRqVkwAXv0ZKA69RdftAQHKTGekAMer7mEUM8Ag32MQWV487S0hcnIh8PnHa 50tQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubPCQZSYCdbOTljb9EiNNYWDpxboUc3WX9M8BC3yrp50uhwuX26 OAFqXBBrwgELTll6/DVZXV4p0A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIr7uRgPLaUfGkP/2DP9u64N8ak/0J/lUDCYfG1VPzIoxSxQ5rlsiE312yRXWF3Ur5SZsy2wQ== X-Received: by 2002:aca:5014:: with SMTP id e20mr6380575oib.71.1587241170672; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oo1-f49.google.com (mail-oo1-f49.google.com. [209.85.161.49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n184sm4420939oia.40.2020.04.18.13.19.29 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oo1-f49.google.com with SMTP id x16so1215374oop.13; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:19:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a4a:a98b:: with SMTP id w11mr7277749oom.80.1587241169445; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 13:19:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <19d0dbdc-f1ac-22f1-6934-076bb5733ab7@daemonic.se> <24c43065-527d-499b-282a-43df2a947a1d@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 22:19:01 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: drm-i915kms + x11-intel eats out all of the ram and swap but not with x11-scfb To: Jan Beich Cc: Theron , Niclas Zeising , freebsd-x11@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494PSg6qmnz3Lx7 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=ANYSTp9S; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.55 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[freebsd]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[d.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.76)[ip: (-7.97), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FREEMAIL_CC(0.00)[gmail.com]; SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS(1.50)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:19:33 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:09 PM Tomasz CEDRO wrote: > On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 7:02 PM Jan Beich wrote: > > Given modesetting uses glamor picture quality may depend on Mesa. > > Try using more recent version, especially "iris" driver. > > > > https://github.com/myfreeweb/freebsd-ports-dank/blob/lite/graphics/mesa-dev > > https://github.com/evadot/freebsd-ports/tree/mesa/graphics/mesa > > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D23161 > > Its good to know people are working on it.. should show up one day on > my desktop too :-) I made it to compile and run MESA-20 (and some of its dependencies) from provided references on 12.1-RELEASE :-) But I can see no change in picture quality.. I noticed some troubles with Xinerama (multi-monitor) on Enlightenment but it worked fine on Xfce4. Because other software seems to depend on mesa I have rolled back to version 18. I have recompiled the MESA-DRI 18 port with VAPPI and VDPAU support enabled I hope that can speed up anything :-) Thanks! :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 20:44:35 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05CA2AD502 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:44:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494Q1Z65XHz3PQM for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:44:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03IKhFF8005646 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:43:16 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Subject: Re: Changes To nat-ing Behaviour? To: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <0e61aeb7-03ff-6016-3f23-1b00630b4af6@tundraware.com> From: Tim Daneliuk Message-ID: <9d6062cb-a6b6-ec59-afe4-ba8041cd01ce@tundraware.com> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:43:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:43:16 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 03IKhFF8005646 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, timed out) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494Q1Z65XHz3PQM X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tundra@tundraware.com designates 45.55.60.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tundra@tundraware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.39 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.15)[-0.147,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.75)[-0.750,0]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.59)[ip: (-1.22), ipnet: 45.55.32.0/19(2.96), asn: 14061(1.26), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:44:35 -0000 On 4/18/20 12:51 PM, Michael Sierchio wrote: > Showing your ruleset would allow us to comment meaningfully. Not sure exactly which ruleset but ... Here are the kernel opts: options IPFIREWALL options IPDIVERT Here is the natd.conf: use_sockets port natd same_ports unregistered_only This is the ruleset in the firewall up to the point NAT gets enabled. re0 is outward facing, em0 is internal LAN: 0001 4 715 allow icmp from any to any icmptypes 0,3,4,8,11,12 00100 24 1958 allow ip from any to any via lo0 00200 0 0 deny ip from any to 127.0.0.0/8 00300 0 0 deny ip from 127.0.0.0/8 to any 00400 0 0 deny ip from 192.168.0.0/24 to any in via re0 00500 0 0 deny ip from 75.145.138.73 to any in via em0 00600 0 0 deny ip from any to 10.0.0.0/8 via re0 00700 0 0 deny ip from any to 172.16.0.0/12 via re0 00800 0 0 deny ip from any to 192.168.0.0/16 via re0 00900 0 0 deny ip from any to 0.0.0.0/8 via re0 01000 0 0 deny ip from any to 169.254.0.0/16 via re0 01100 0 0 deny ip from any to 192.0.2.0/24 via re0 01200 1 32 deny ip from any to 224.0.0.0/4 via re0 01300 0 0 deny ip from any to 240.0.0.0/4 via re0 01400 1011 97774 divert 8668 ip from any to any via re0 As I said, these rules have not changed for an eternity so not sure what is going on here. > > On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:19 AM Tim Daneliuk wrote: > >> I recently upgraded a FBSD 11.3 machine to -STABLE as of a few weeks ago. >> >> This machine acts as a firewall and nats between the outside world >> and an internal nonroutable network. >> >> Configuration is stable and has not changed in years. >> >> Today I noted that speeds on the LAN side are about half of what is >> available >> going out to the internet. >> >> I eliminated cables, interfaces, and switches and confirmed that - even if >> I plug a machine directly into the FBSD nat box, I get half the speed that >> box gets out to the net. >> >> I'm at a loss since I've changed nothing in the config. >> >> Ideas would be most appreciated. >> >> TIA, >> -- >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com >> PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to " >> freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > > -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/ From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sat Apr 18 21:39:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F37A2AE76A for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 21:39:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mailman.tundraware.com", Issuer "mailman.tundraware.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 494RFN2Q3dz3yH6 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 21:39:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 03ILcVJR006493 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Subject: Re: Changes To nat-ing Behaviour? From: Tim Daneliuk To: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <0e61aeb7-03ff-6016-3f23-1b00630b4af6@tundraware.com> <9d6062cb-a6b6-ec59-afe4-ba8041cd01ce@tundraware.com> Message-ID: <6bce8097-1515-6ca7-754b-d069bcf260ca@tundraware.com> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9d6062cb-a6b6-ec59-afe4-ba8041cd01ce@tundraware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:31 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 03ILcVJR006493 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, timed out) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 494RFN2Q3dz3yH6 X-Spamd-Bar: / Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tundra@tundraware.com designates 45.55.60.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=tundra@tundraware.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.58 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.36)[-0.365,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+a]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[tundraware.com]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.35)[-0.347,0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.59)[ip: (-1.21), ipnet: 45.55.32.0/19(2.95), asn: 14061(1.26), country: US(-0.05)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:45.55.32.0/19, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 21:39:53 -0000 On 4/18/20 3:43 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote: > On 4/18/20 12:51 PM, Michael Sierchio wrote: >> Showing your ruleset would allow us to comment meaningfully. > > Not sure exactly which ruleset but ... Here are the kernel opts: > > options     IPFIREWALL > options     IPDIVERT > > > Here is the natd.conf: > > use_sockets > port natd > same_ports > unregistered_only > > > This is the ruleset in the firewall up to the point NAT gets enabled. > re0 is outward facing, em0 is internal LAN: > > 0001    4     715 allow icmp from any to any icmptypes 0,3,4,8,11,12 > 00100   24    1958 allow ip from any to any via lo0 > 00200    0       0 deny ip from any to 127.0.0.0/8 > 00300    0       0 deny ip from 127.0.0.0/8 to any > 00400    0       0 deny ip from 192.168.0.0/24 to any in via re0 > 00500    0       0 deny ip from 75.145.138.73 to any in via em0 > 00600    0       0 deny ip from any to 10.0.0.0/8 via re0 > 00700    0       0 deny ip from any to 172.16.0.0/12 via re0 > 00800    0       0 deny ip from any to 192.168.0.0/16 via re0 > 00900    0       0 deny ip from any to 0.0.0.0/8 via re0 > 01000    0       0 deny ip from any to 169.254.0.0/16 via re0 > 01100    0       0 deny ip from any to 192.0.2.0/24 via re0 > 01200    1      32 deny ip from any to 224.0.0.0/4 via re0 > 01300    0       0 deny ip from any to 240.0.0.0/4 via re0 > 01400 1011   97774 divert 8668 ip from any to any via re0 > > As I said, these rules have not changed for an eternity so not sure > what is going on here. Oh nevermind .... It looks like this is NIC related and was hiding behind what appeared to be a NATing problem. Apologies for bothering all .. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/