From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 02:12:43 1995
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From: wgb@netcom.com (Bill Bosacker)
Message-Id: <199501291011.CAA11168@netcom12.netcom.com>
Subject: Fix for IDE drives with > 1024 cylinders
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 02:11:21 -0800 (PST)
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Well I have a fix that I originally wrote for version 1.5.1.1 and then 
modified it for version 2.0.  It seems to work fine using the LB 
addressing mode of the IDE specifications.  The only hardware reuirements 
are a drive that supports LB addressing (almost all large drives do) and 
a set of BIOS (either your SYSTEM BIOS or BIOS on an IDE Controller) that 
support this mode and allow LBA translations.  I will send you the fixed 
versions of the 3 files that need to be changed, 'bootinfo.h', 'wd.c', 
and 'wdreg.h'.  If you have any questions, just let me know.

Take it easy.....

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 02:14:52 1995
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From: wgb@netcom.com (Bill Bosacker)
Message-Id: <199501291013.CAA11230@netcom12.netcom.com>
Subject: bootinfo.h (uue)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 02:13:32 -0800 (PST)
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begin 600 bootinfo.h
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end

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 02:15:36 1995
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From: wgb@netcom.com (Bill Bosacker)
Message-Id: <199501291014.CAA11246@netcom12.netcom.com>
Subject: wd.c
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 02:14:14 -0800 (PST)
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end

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Subject: wdreg.h
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 02:15:01 -0800 (PST)
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begin 600 wdreg.h
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!"B!D
 
end

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 02:18:41 1995
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From: wgb@netcom.com (Bill Bosacker)
Message-Id: <199501291017.CAA11433@netcom12.netcom.com>
Subject: PS....
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 02:17:21 -0800 (PST)
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I almost forgot, incase you need to know.  After you make the changes a new
set of installation disks needs to be created; otherwise, the current kernel
will over-write the new one.

Boy I'm tired....really late......


Take it easy.....

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 13:30:09 1995
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From: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <199501291422.OAA00696@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: >1024 cyl IDE drive
To: fcawth@squid.umd.edu (Fred Cawthorne)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 14:22:49 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org, hoppy@appsmiths.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <9501281827.AA01957@squid.umd.edu> from "Fred Cawthorne" at Jan 28, 95 01:27:24 pm
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In reply to Fred Cawthorne who said
> 
> Ummm... Why can't you just rewrite the MBR with fdisk or something??
> I just installed a 1 gig Western Digital drive, and indeed Ontrack Disk
> manager does write some stuff into the MBR...  The bios has the real
> parameters in it, so I would guess if this boot code wasn't there, you 
> could just use the real ones with the usual >1024 cyl. precautions.
> I didn't check if the translator thingie was installed on the drive
> right out of the package, but I would guess it wasn't.  
> If you install a small dos partition, and then try to install FreeBSD, 
> then I would imagine it would choke when the MBR is overwritten by the
> boot selector... ):
> There should be a section in the install notes about these drives..

I haven't seen one of these drives yet so I'm not sure what functionality
the boot code has.

We should, unless the installer requests otherwise, preserve the existing
MBR, I think we do I'll have to check. The problem is that without a
multi-OS boot manager you won't be able to choose which OS to boot. 

We need more info on exactly what these things do.

-- 
  Paul Richards, FreeBSD core team member. 
  Phone: +44 1222 874000 x6646 (work), +44 1222 457651 (home)
  Dept. Mechanical Engineering, University of Wales, College Cardiff.
  Internet: paul@FreeBSD.org,  JANET(UK): RICHARDSDP@CARDIFF.AC.UK

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 13:38:14 1995
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 03:12:24 -0800
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Message-Id: <199501291112.DAA25384@time.cdrom.com>
To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: incoming on ftp.freebsd.org
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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Was just aggressively and mercilessly pruned.  Anything older than
1 November, 1994 is gone.  Sorry, folks, but I really need the space
for more useful (and up-to-date) things!  We're overflowing our
partition here..

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 13:48:15 1995
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From: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij)
Message-Id: <199501291351.OAA06450@gvr.win.tue.nl>
Subject: Re: PS....
To: wgb@netcom.com (Bill Bosacker)
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 14:51:20 +0100 (MET)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199501291017.CAA11433@netcom12.netcom.com> from "Bill Bosacker" at Jan 29, 95 02:17:21 am
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Bill Bosacker wrote:
> 
> I almost forgot, incase you need to know.  After you make the changes a new
> set of installation disks needs to be created; otherwise, the current kernel
> will over-write the new one.
> 
> Boy I'm tired....really late......
> 
> 


Would you mind telling us what these files do?
And perhaps it's more handy to put this stuff in incoming of freefall,
and just post this annoucement ;-()

-Guido

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 17:27:36 1995
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 17:27:35 -0800
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Message-Id: <199501300127.RAA27779@time.cdrom.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Which version of prospero?
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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So it's been suggested to me that I might be able to do my evil things to
ftpd by linking it with prospero, but the questions then raised are:

1. Prospero 5 or 4?  archie turns up 5.2a as the latest, with 5.1b being
   the what appears to be the chosen default, and 4.x dists are also available
   at the same sites.  They're both a couple of years old, which doesn't
   exactly give me warm fuzzies.  What happened after 5.2a?  They all died,
   or what?

2. Anyone have any experience with prospero and would care to share any
   war stories before I jump into this with both feet?

Thanks!

					Jordan
  

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 18:00:28 1995
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 18:00:27 -0800
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Message-Id: <199501300200.SAA27898@time.cdrom.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Notice to our foreign readers:
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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It is a fact long since known to me that that some of you read the postings
of us native speakers with fully two goals in mind:  The aquisition of
technical facts related to FreeBSD and the improvement of your general
english skills.  

Well, I just felt compelled to point out (as a public service) that my
own postings as of late should only be used in the former intention,
if any.  Do not take my abuse of the english language as any kind of
example, please!  I'm clearly not taking a lot of time to think
about it! :-)

[Just reading through some recent postings of mine and feeling like, maybe,
proofreading wouldn't be such a bad practice to institute.. :-( ]

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 20:14:13 1995
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Message-Id: <199501300413.UAA09047@precipice.Shockwave.COM>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: nevot "heads down"
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 20:13:33 -0800
From: Paul Traina <pst@shockwave.com>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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A few weeks ago I sent out a "heads up" message letting anyone know that
was considering working on porting nevot to freebsd that I had started
porting it, and would have something working shortly and not to bother
duplicating effort

Since then, I've gotten stuck dealing with some more mundane stuff (read:
the day job has become a mega-time sink again) so anyone who was thinking
of hacking on things themselves,  go for it.  The damn program is an unholy
mess,  but I'd be happy to give diffs of at least the parts I got compiled
to any SERIOUS porter.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 20:15:42 1995
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	id XAA24120; Sun, 29 Jan 1995 23:39:50 -0500
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Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 23:24:41 -0500
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
From: mtaylor@gateway.cybernet.com (Mark J. Taylor)
Subject: disable structure packing with gcc?
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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I'm writing a byte-swapping routine for structures in gcc 2.4.5 (FreeBSD
1.1.5.1).  gcc insists on packing structures, and I do not fully understand
the packing method it uses.

How can I turn off structure packing (to get to single byte alignment)?


-Mark Taylor
mtaylor@cybernet.com



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Jan 29 22:57:52 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 17:53:36 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199501300653.RAA29733@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, j@uriah.sax.de
Subject: Re: SyQuest works with FreeBSD 2.0R !
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

>As Peter Dufault wrote:
>| 
>| I'd like a description of what happens when you unmount a file system,
>| change the media, and try to mount a filesystem on a removable drive,
>| including dmesg output.

>Btw., there's another annoying thing besides the UA: a message
>indicating ``disk does not have an MBR'' is logged, even if i'm using
>/dev/rsd*d -- where it does not make any sense to insist on having an
>MBR at all.

This is from isa/readMBR.c.  The SCSI driver is apparently doing a
good job of reinitializing the label after a disk change.
readMBRtolabel() is probably being too verbose about the missing MBR.

Don't do any more work on readMBR.c.  It will go away when slices are
used.  The corresponding file:routine is isa/diskslice_machdep.c:
dsinit().  This is quiet about missing MBRs but has verbose debugging
code about what it thinks are invalid DOSpartitions.  dsinit() is called
by dsopen() in kern/subr_diskslice.c.  This has verbose non-debugging
code about invalid and adjusted labels.  The slice code has some support
for removable media (dsgone()) but it hasn't been tested much.  It is
only implemented for virtual (vn) media and probably only works right if
all minors for the device are closed and in one or two other cases (for
vn you have to have a minor open to do the ioctl that removes the
virtual media :-).  It could be tested using floppies if the floppy
driver had support for removed disks.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 00:47:12 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 03:46:23 -0500
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
From: dstrout@tasc.com (Dave Strout)
Subject: AMI Pentium Excalibur VLB MB any good?
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Is anyone sucessfully running the AMI Excalibur Pentium VLB motherboard?
Since there seesm to still be some problems with PCI, I went looking for a
Pentium VLB motherboard not based on the Opti or Intel chipsets, and this
was about the only one I could find.  I was hoping someone had some
experiences with it to share.

Related question, is it worth the extra $$ to buy a 66Mhz pentium vs. a
486DX2-66?

And finally, how does VLB work w/ a 66mhz Pentium MB?  I know on a
486DX2-66 the slots are running at 33Mhz, and since the Pentium isn't clock
doubled, it would be my guess that the slots are running 66Mhz.  Is that
true?  If so, does that cause a problem with any cards?

Forgive me if these are silly questions; I've not paid attention to PC
hardware much in the past.

dave.

--
Dave Strout                     dstrout@sun.rest.tasc.com
"`Reserved' is where you park, not how you drive" -- seen in a Pontiac ad.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 01:13:46 1995
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Message-Id: <199501300913.KAA09224@lirmm.lirmm.fr>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: ispell-3.01.13 and current
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 10:12:59 +0100
From: "Philippe Charnier" <charnier@lirmm.fr>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I have problems to install ispell-3.1.13 on FreeBSD-current (errors when
making english.med+). Any suggestion will be welcome.

--------                                                        --------
Philippe Charnier                                      charnier@lirmm.fr
                               

         LIRMM, 161 rue Ada, 34392 Montpellier cedex 5 -- France
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 02:01:53 1995
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From: Thomas Gellekum <thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199501301001.LAA04803@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de>
Subject: faulting memory reference after SIGSEGV?
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:01:20 +0100 (MET)
Organization: Institut f. Hochfrequenztechnik, RWTH Aachen
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Moin moin,

How can a SIGSEGV or SIGBUS handler find out the address of the
faulting memory reference?  I noticed `struct sigcontext' and I
assume the information is probably in there somewhere.  Where?

tg

(Oh yes, are there any docs on the layout of executables?  There are
some macros in <a.out.h> which aren't mentioned in the man page, and
it would be nice to know what they do.)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 03:01:25 1995
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Subject: Re: Beta version of driver for Sony CDU33A cdrom
Reply-To: gj@FreeBSD.org
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 10:58:02 GMT
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I don't know how much feedback you've gotten on this, but I finally got
around to integrating it into my kernel this weekend and I can attest
that it works quite well.

The only thing missing was support for xcdplayer, so I hacked it in.
It works quite nicely, I just couldn't figure out how to get the volume
control to work, so that's not supported.

Any interest in the diffs?

Gary J.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 03:45:56 1995
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Subject: Re: Beta version of driver for Sony CDU33A cdrom
Reply-To: gj@FreeBSD.org
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 11:40:00 GMT
From: "gj%pcs.dec.com@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com" <garyj@rks32.pcs.dec.com>
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A follow up to my own mail, ack!

I wrote:

> I don't know how much feedback you've gotten on this, but I finally got
> around to integrating it into my kernel this weekend and I can attest
> that it works quite well.
>
> The only thing missing was support for xcdplayer, so I hacked it in.
> It works quite nicely, I just couldn't figure out how to get the volume
> control to work, so that's not supported.
>
> Any interest in the diffs?

I just noticed that Jordam committed a new version of this over the weekend!
That's what I get for reading the cvs mail as news!

Of course, my diffs are now totally fubar. However, it appears that there
still isn't full support for xcdplayer, so I'll be adding it as soon as I
integtrate the new sources.

Any interest ?

BTW, I have a Sony controller, but have no idea how to put in interrupts/DMA
support. No docu.

Gary J.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 03:47:43 1995
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From: "matthew c. mead" <mmead@goof.com>
Message-Id: <199501301147.GAA04450@goof.com>
Subject: GCC
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 06:47:25 -0500 (EST)
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    Could someone detail the method for creating a new GCC binary setup from
one of their subsequent releases?  I'm not really sure how to get GCC to build
a shared lib and automatically link with it etc. (libgcc.so.261.0 et al).  I'd
like to be able to build newer versions and have them as fully integrated into
the system as the version that comes with the system.  Thanks in advance!


-matt

-- 
Matthew C. Mead -- System/Network Administration, User Support, Software Devel.
Virginia Tech Center for Transportation Research
Work Related: mmead@ctr.vt.edu | All Other: mmead@goof.com
WWW: http://www.goof.com:/~mmead

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 04:13:58 1995
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From: conrad@stack.urc.tue.nl (Conrad Sauerwald)
Message-Id: <9501301212.AA23056@terra.stack.urc.tue.nl>
Subject: system limits
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 13:12:55 MET
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Hello there,

we are currently setting up machines for use by our members and while 
examining set limits we found a user's hard limit is not set and he can
actually eat all the system's filedescriptors instead of the defined 64. 
We hacked init to enforce sane limits :-} but suppose there is a good 
solution for this.

Conrad.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 05:38:05 1995
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199501301332.GAA20680@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: Re: ispell-3.01.13 and current
To: charnier@lirmm.fr (Philippe Charnier)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 06:32:56 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (FreeBSD hackers)
In-Reply-To: <199501300913.KAA09224@lirmm.lirmm.fr> from "Philippe Charnier" at Jan 30, 95 10:12:59 am
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> I have problems to install ispell-3.1.13 on FreeBSD-current (errors when
> making english.med+). Any suggestion will be welcome.

First of all, use GNU sed.  I *think* FBSD's sed is still broke (?)
Can you describe error exactly?

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 05:48:25 1995
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	id AA01784; Mon, 30 Jan 95 14:45:13 +0100
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 14:45:13 +0100
From: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr (Jean-Marc Zucconi)
Message-Id: <9501301345.AA01784@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>
To: charnier@lirmm.fr
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199501300913.KAA09224@lirmm.lirmm.fr> (charnier@lirmm.fr)
Subject: Re: ispell-3.01.13 and current
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>>>>> "Philippe" == Philippe Charnier <charnier@lirmm.fr> writes:

 > Hi,
 > I have problems to install ispell-3.1.13 on FreeBSD-current (errors when
 > making english.med+). Any suggestion will be welcome.


ispell-3.1.13 and the latest ispell-3.1.18 are broken. This is why the
version in ports is still at patchlevel 08. A workaround is to switch
to the smaller "american.med" dictionary, but there is no solution if
you want to build a dictionary from raw word lists for others
languages.
I'll ask (again) the ispell maintainer when this will be solved!

Jean-Marc.

-- 
    ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
    Jean-Marc Zucconi             |         jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
    Observatoire de Besancon      |    
    F 25010 Besancon cedex        | PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
    =========================================================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 06:35:21 1995
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From: John Capo <jc@irbs.com>
Message-Id: <199501301434.JAA26994@irbs.com>
Subject: Re: disable structure packing with gcc?
To: mtaylor@gateway.cybernet.com (Mark J. Taylor)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 09:34:59 -0500 (EST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (freebsd-hackers)
In-Reply-To: <v01510108ab521964e060@[192.245.33.12]> from "Mark J. Taylor" at Jan 29, 95 11:24:41 pm
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Mark J. Taylor writes:
> 
> 
> I'm writing a byte-swapping routine for structures in gcc 2.4.5 (FreeBSD
> 1.1.5.1).  gcc insists on packing structures, and I do not fully understand
> the packing method it uses.
> 
> How can I turn off structure packing (to get to single byte alignment)?
> 

gcc 2.X  supports #pragma pack() directives if it is compiled with
-DHANDLE_SYSV_PRAGMA.  I have several cross-compilers with this option
enabled and they DTRT.

John Capo

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 07:56:46 1995
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199501301556.IAA23121@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: Re: ispell-3.01.13 and current
To: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr (Jean-Marc Zucconi)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 08:56:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (FreeBSD hackers)
In-Reply-To: <9501301345.AA01784@cabri.obs-besancon.fr> from "Jean-Marc Zucconi" at Jan 30, 95 02:45:13 pm
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> ispell-3.1.13 and the latest ispell-3.1.18 are broken. This is why the
> version in ports is still at patchlevel 08. A workaround is to switch
> to the smaller "american.med" dictionary, but there is no solution if
> you want to build a dictionary from raw word lists for others
> languages.
> I'll ask (again) the ispell maintainer when this will be solved!

Actually, I believe 3.1.08 *also* suffers from a broken sed problem.
Could you elaborate on the nature of the bugs/problems you are aware
of?   Thx, --don

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 08:29:07 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 16:27:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@render.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: NFS with kerberos authentication
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I just saw this mentioned in the list and I thought I would give it a try 
and see if it worked.  The main problem with it was that the client's 
user side authentication (in mount_nfs) was getting the wrong ticket 
file.  The code was using setreuid to try and change the real uid to the 
uid of the user which needed authenticating.  This has two problems:

1.  setreuid() isn't fully supported in FreeBSD-2.0, specifically, 
mount_nfs's use of it was not supported.

2.  Mount_nfs has no way of determining the correct ticket file to use
since it cannot examine the KRBTKFILE environment variable of the process
which initiated the authentication request. 

I 'solved' it by leaving the uids alone and constructing the name of the 
ticket file in the same way as src/usr.bin/login/klogin.c.  This only 
works for ordinary instances and fails for root instances since they 
generally override the name of the default ticket file with the KRBTKFILE 
variable.

I think that what is really needed is for the process which is
authenticating to register the name of its ticket file and for this name 
to be sent to mount_nfs to use for the authentication.

There also needs to be a minor change to krb_kntoln() to return 'root' as 
the login name for root instances, otherwise nfsd will error when trying 
to recieve the authenticator for clients using a root instance.

--
Doug Rabson, RenderMorphics Ltd.	Mail:  dfr@render.com
					Phone: +44 71 251 4411
					FAX:   +44 71 251 0939


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 08:30:05 1995
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From: James Robinson <james@hermes.cybernetics.net>
Message-Id: <199501301641.LAA01038@hermes.cybernetics.net>
Subject: iij PPP on demand
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:41:19 -0500 (EST)
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I just grabbed this package and have just gotten it working -- if you
see this note, then take that as proof that it works!

I have not played too much with its fancier options (dial on demand, auto
logoff after N secs of idle time), but the integration of dialer + ppp
daemon is a really nice feature. It autodetects the peer PPP data
stream (similiar to seyon's auto-zmodem detection) and sets up the
connection, default route, etc. No more having to explain about having
to suspend kermit then starting pppd. No more telling seyon to exit
but not hang up the phone.

I'm about to try to gleam how to enable the autodialing, autologon scripts.

Very impressed with the package and ease of use (even though the docs are
in Japanese). I sugggest any PPP user still in 1.1* land give this one
a shot!

Thanks you very much Atsushi!!!!

James


: James Robinson :   james@hermes.cybernetics.net ::See the screaming hot black
:FreeBSD|XFree86 :The best things in life are Free::     steaming iridescent
:  Frank Zappa   :      Music is the best         ::naughahyde python screaming
:  HTTP Server   : http://hermes.cybernetics.net/ ::        steam roller!


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 09:05:45 1995
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From: supervisor@alb.asctmd.com
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 09:58:53 -0700
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject:  ALPHA netipx Code Available
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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I have uploaded my ALPHA netipx stuff to the incomming directory on
freefall.cdrom.com. The file is "/incomming/netipx.tar.gz". Attached below
is the README file which is included in the kit. A copy of this file is also
available via anonymous ftp to  ftp.asctmd.com--the ppp link here is very
slow...

If you wish to test this code and contribute patches, I will happily accept
these and attempt to reintegrate them into my kit. I do not currently have
the time spend on major support or enhancements.

The strange "crashing" in the previous code was due to improper calls to
ipx_output() when an echo request was received. I believe this has
been corrected.

/sbin/ifconfig ed1 ipx 0xaabbccdd # configure IPX network aabbccdd

----------
The purpose of this kit is to add rudimentary support for the IPX protocol
(EtherNet_II frame type 0x8137) to the 4.4BSD Lite source tree. Please
realize that it is currently ALPHA and your mileage is expected to vary. I
do not currently have the time to support this package the way I would
like to; but, I am making it available in the hopes that someone else might.

Mike Mitchell

--- Projects for the Daring ---

1. Perform alot more testing. I do not know if the spx code works.
However,  it does compile without complaints.

2. Create and enhance more applications:
   IPXrouted	keep ipx routing information up to date, implement correctly
   libc/net/gethostbyht.c
   libc/net/getnetbyht.c
		enhance routines with proto family field to support AF_IPX
   ipxping	similar to ip ping but for a remote ipx host
   samba	fix samba to work on AF_IPX to support Windows for
Workgroups
		using the NetBIOS transport over SPX

3. The big pie in the sky would be to have a complete suite of working
   NetWare client utilities. Wouldn't you like to see a 'NFS like' file
   system attached to a NetWare server? Or maybe, emulation of a
NetWare
   server so that clients may connect?

--- Installation Notes ---

1. Install the FreeBSD 2.0 source tree. All patches have been made
   relative to a FreeBSD 2.0 Release source tree. The source tree
   available to me comes on the InfoMagic BSDisc.

2. Untar the netipx kit from the root directory. All of the pathnames are
   relative to the root directory. This will install new files in the
   source tree. If you wish to extract this kit in another directory,
   be sure to install all of the new files manually.

3. Apply the patches. It is not recommended that you apply these
patches
   on a production environment.

   patch -p0 < PATCHES

4. Include the following lines in your kernel configuration file after
   application of the netipx kit.

   options	IPX			#IPX Networking Support
   options	IPXIP			#IPX over IP Networking Support

5. Rebuild your kernel and reboot.

   cd /usr/src/sys/i386/conf
   config GENERIC			# GENERIC = your config file
   cd /usr/src/sys/compile/GENERIC	# GENERIC = your config file
   make depend; make
   cp /kernel /kernel.old
   cp kernel /kernel
   shutdown -r now

6. Rebuild and install: libc, ifconfig, netstat

   cd /usr/src/lib/libc; make; make install
   cd /usr/src/sbin/ifconfig; make; make install
   cd /usr/src/usr.bin/netstat; make; make install
   cd /usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted; make; make install

7. Test, Test, Test

--- New Files ---

The following list of files are not present in the FreeBSD 2.0 Release
source tree:

/usr/include/netipx/ipx.h
/usr/include/netipx/ipx_error.h
/usr/include/netipx/ipx_if.h
/usr/include/netipx/ipx_pcb.h
/usr/include/netipx/ipx_var.h
/usr/include/netipx/spx.h
/usr/include/netipx/spx_debug.h
/usr/include/netipx/spx_timer.h
/usr/include/netipx/spx_var.h
/usr/src/lib/libc/net/ipx.3
/usr/src/lib/libc/net/ipx_addr.c
/usr/src/lib/libc/net/ipx_ntoa.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/MAKE.PATCHES
/usr/src/sys/netipx/MANIFEST
/usr/src/sys/netipx/MANIFEST.DIFFS
/usr/src/sys/netipx/PATCHES
/usr/src/sys/netipx/README
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx.h
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_cksum.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_error.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_error.h
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_if.h
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_input.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_ip.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_outputfl.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_pcb.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_pcb.h
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_proto.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_usrreq.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/ipx_var.h
/usr/src/sys/netipx/spx.h
/usr/src/sys/netipx/spx_debug.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/spx_debug.h
/usr/src/sys/netipx/spx_timer.h
/usr/src/sys/netipx/spx_usrreq.c
/usr/src/sys/netipx/spx_var.h
/usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/ipx.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/IPXrouted.8
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/Makefile
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/af.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/af.h
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/defs.h
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/if.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/input.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/interface.h
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/main.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/output.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/protocol.h
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/startup.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/table.h
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/tables.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/timer.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/tools/query.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/trace.c
/usr/src/usr.sbin/IPXrouted/trace.h

--- PATCHED FILES ---

The following list of files are present in the FreeBSD 2.0 Release source
tree and require modification:

/usr/include/net/netisr.h
/usr/include/net/route.h
/usr/include/netiso/iso_errno.h
/usr/src/sys/conf/files
/usr/src/sys/i386/i386/machdep.c
/usr/src/sys/i386/isa/if_ed.c
/usr/src/sys/i386/isa/if_el.c
/usr/src/sys/i386/isa/if_ep.c
/usr/src/sys/i386/isa/if_ie.c
/usr/src/sys/i386/isa/if_is.c
/usr/src/sys/i386/isa/if_le.c
/usr/src/sys/i386/isa/if_ze.c
/usr/src/sys/i386/pci/if_de.c
/usr/src/sys/kern/uipc_domain.c
/usr/src/sys/net/if_ethersubr.c
/usr/src/sys/net/if_loop.c
/usr/src/sys/net/if_ppp.c
/usr/src/sys/net/netisr.h
/usr/src/sys/net/route.c
/usr/src/sys/net/route.h
/usr/src/sys/net/rtsock.c
/usr/src/sys/netccitt/if_x25subr.c
/usr/src/sys/netinet/in_proto.c
/usr/src/sys/netiso/iso_errno.h
/usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/Makefile
/usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/if.c
/usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/main.c
/usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/netstat.h
/usr/src/usr.bin/netstat/route.c
/usr/src/sbin/ifconfig/ifconfig.c
/usr/src/lib/libc/net/Makefile.inc



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 09:18:51 1995
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From: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Message-Id: <9501301719.AA01447@blaise.ibp.fr>
Subject: Re: iij PPP on demand
To: james@hermes.cybernetics.net (James Robinson)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 18:19:28 +0100 (MET)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199501301641.LAA01038@hermes.cybernetics.net> from "James Robinson" at Jan 30, 95 11:41:19 am
X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development ctm#307
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> Very impressed with the package and ease of use (even though the docs are
> in Japanese). I sugggest any PPP user still in 1.1* land give this one
> a shot!
> 
> Thanks you very much Atsushi!!!!

And thanks to the one who will hopefully port it to 2.1 !! :-)
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT     -=- The daemon is FREE! -=-     roberto@FreeBSD.ORG
   FreeBSD keltia 2.1.0-Development #18: Thu Jan 26 22:22:16 MET 1995

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 09:29:34 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199501301729.JAA05234@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: GCC
To: mmead@goof.com (matthew c. mead)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 09:29:17 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199501301147.GAA04450@goof.com> from "matthew c. mead" at Jan 30, 95 06:47:25 am
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> 
>     Could someone detail the method for creating a new GCC binary setup from
> one of their subsequent releases?  I'm not really sure how to get GCC to build
> a shared lib and automatically link with it etc. (libgcc.so.261.0 et al).  I'd
> like to be able to build newer versions and have them as fully integrated into
> the system as the version that comes with the system.  Thanks in advance!
> 
Check out:
	/usr/src/gnu/gnu2bmake

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 10:23:16 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 05:20:20 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199501301820.FAA08328@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de
Subject: Re: faulting memory reference after SIGSEGV?
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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>How can a SIGSEGV or SIGBUS handler find out the address of the
>faulting memory reference?  I noticed `struct sigcontext' and I
>assume the information is probably in there somewhere.  Where?

It can't.  Someone suggested adding the fault address to `struct
sigcontext' in 1.1.x, but it isn't there now.

A fictitious (vax?) `struct sigcontext' is documented in several
places.  See <machine/signal.h> for the one actually supported.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 10:38:12 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:36:24 -0500
From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9501301836.AA16079@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: Doug Rabson <dfr@render.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: NFS with kerberos authentication
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.950130161202.27708D-100000@minnow.render.com>
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<<On Mon, 30 Jan 1995 16:27:29 +0000 (GMT), Doug Rabson <dfr@render.com> said:

> 2.  Mount_nfs has no way of determining the correct ticket file to use
> since it cannot examine the KRBTKFILE environment variable of the process
> which initiated the authentication request. 

It's not clear that it /should/ do so...

> I 'solved' it by leaving the uids alone and constructing the name of the 
> ticket file in the same way as src/usr.bin/login/klogin.c.  This only 
> works for ordinary instances and fails for root instances since they 
> generally override the name of the default ticket file with the KRBTKFILE 
> variable.

root instances are not intended to be network superusers.

> I think that what is really needed is for the process which is
> authenticating to register the name of its ticket file and for this name 
> to be sent to mount_nfs to use for the authentication.

At MIT, a user-level daemon is used to directly pass the
authentication from the user program to the server, with no
modification of the NFS client or server code.  (At LCS this program
is called `fsauth'.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 11:47:45 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:47:45 -0800
From: Jeffrey Hsu <hsu>
Message-Id: <199501301947.LAA08464@freefall.cdrom.com>
To: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de
Subject: Re: faulting memory reference after SIGSEGV?
Cc: hackers
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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Let me guess, you're working on the garbage collector for some language.
Which one?

Here's an example from Boehm's GC,

    void GC_write_fault_handler(sig, code, scp, addr)
    int sig, code;
    struct sigcontext *scp;
    char *addr;

where addr is the faulting virtual address.

							Jeffrey

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 12:33:11 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 07:30:22 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199501302030.HAA09887@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: jc@irbs.com, mtaylor@gateway.cybernet.com
Subject: Re: disable structure packing with gcc?
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>> I'm writing a byte-swapping routine for structures in gcc 2.4.5 (FreeBSD
>> 1.1.5.1).  gcc insists on packing structures, and I do not fully understand
>> the packing method it uses.
>> 
>> How can I turn off structure packing (to get to single byte alignment)?

s/packing/padding/.

>gcc 2.X  supports #pragma pack() directives if it is compiled with
>-DHANDLE_SYSV_PRAGMA.  I have several cross-compilers with this option
>enabled and they DTRT.

gcc.2.[4-5] supports __attribute__ ((packed)) declarations in all
configurations.  This feature is even more unportable than #praga pack.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 12:38:45 1995
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Fake-Sender: Tom Samplonius <tom@haven.uniserve.com>
From: Tom Samplonius <tom@haven.uniserve.com>
To: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
cc: Philippe Charnier <charnier@lirmm.fr>,
        FreeBSD hackers <freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: ispell-3.01.13 and current
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On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, Don Yuniskis wrote:

> > I have problems to install ispell-3.1.13 on FreeBSD-current (errors when
> > making english.med+). Any suggestion will be welcome.
> 
> First of all, use GNU sed.  I *think* FBSD's sed is still broke (?)
> Can you describe error exactly?

  I don't think sed has ever worked right.  Instead of re-inventing the 
wheel, why don't we just include GNU sed with FreeBSD?

Tom

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 12:45:26 1995
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From: supervisor@alb.asctmd.com
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:44:19 -0700
To: terry@cs.weber.edu
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject:  Re: sys/netipx -Reply
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I am working on a hacked version of the netns code in order to
conform
> more to IPX (ethernet frame type 8137). I am interested in being able to
> support IPX and SPX connections using the BSD sockets interface.
> THESE CHANGES ARE NOT YET COMPLETE...
>  > What is an appropriate method to make these changes available for
> inclusion into the FreeBSD source tree?

Maybe now would be a good time to generalize the protocol family
registration mechanism and provide a function interface to do it, as well
as getting rid of the #undef UNIX and the word 'UNIX' in referring to
socket domains?

It would be natural to use an LKM to load a protocol family.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I took a look at generating a LKM to load a protocol family; there seem to
be alot of places that a protocol family needs to hook into (e.g. the
ethernet hardware drivers). The netipx kit is not implemented as a LKM
because of this.

Would it make sense to create protocol family callbacks which would be
available to the ethernet hardware drivers? Is there such an interface
already defined?



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 13:18:42 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:18:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Telebit Corporation <telebit@cerfnet.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: suping to current
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950130125356.17766A-100000@nic.cerf.net>
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Hello,

	I have installed FreeBSD 2.0-RELEASE a few days ago and decided 
to update to current by using the supplied standard-supfile in /usr/share/FAQ
using sup -v standard-supfile but as I was supping, freebsd.org was 
unreachable after it was in the middle of doing the supping so I ctrl-c 
out of sup and did sup -v standard-supfile later.  Afterwards, I tried to 
build a kernel after the sup was completed and it said something about 
don't know how to make target.  Then I tried make world from /usr/src and 
it just stopped when it was doing the sysinstall part of make world, 
anyone have any ideas?  Thanks.

Mark
Telebit Corporation


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 14:51:04 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 14:51:02 -0800
From: Jeffrey Hsu <hsu>
Message-Id: <199501302251.OAA13964@freefall.cdrom.com>
To: bde@zeta.org.au
Subject: Re: faulting memory reference after SIGSEGV?
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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While sigcontext is arguably a better place to pass this information
back, sendsig currently places it in sigframe, visible to user processes
as an extra fourth argument to signal handlers.

							Jeffrey

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 15:01:45 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 18:00:04 -0500
From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9501302300.AA16529@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: supervisor@alb.asctmd.com
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: sys/netipx -Reply
In-Reply-To: <sf2cedbd.002@alb.asctmd.com>
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<<On Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:44:19 -0700, supervisor@alb.asctmd.com said:

> Would it make sense to create protocol family callbacks which would be
> available to the ethernet hardware drivers? Is there such an interface
> already defined?

No.  The right thing to do is to load the protocol family first, then
load any interfaces, then configure those interfaces.  This is
presently very hard to do.  I had hoped to have a solution implemented
by now, but other things have soaked up my time.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 15:15:18 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199501302314.PAA06803@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: DCF77 under current anyone?
To: root@rz-wb.fh-sw.de (Michael Reifenberger)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 15:14:40 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.950130223234.13100B-100000@rz-wb.fh-sw.de> from "Michael Reifenberger" at Jan 30, 95 10:41:38 pm
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> On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> 
> > Well, I left europe and coudln't test it, so Bruce (?) yanked it
> > because is was horrible.
> Strange, but the whole timestamp source is in current.
> 
> But I can't compile ioconf.c because config(8) generates:
> ...
> {  7, &siodriver,  IO_COM1,  IRQ4, -1, C 0x00000,     0, siointrt,   0, 0x0000, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1 },
>                                                          ^^^^^^^^

Is there anybody who can give a sane reason for the truncations config
does ?

Otherwise I'm gonna remove them.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 15:21:19 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 15:20:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Telebit Corporation <telebit@cerfnet.com>
To: current@FreeBSD.org
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: current problems
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950130151624.5113A-100000@nic.cerf.net>
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Hello,

	I had attempted to update to current from 2.0-RELEASE by using 
sup -v standard-supfile where standard-supfile is from 2.0-RELEASE 
/usr/share/FAQ/standard-supfile.  However FreeBSD.ORG was unreachable in 
the middle of my sup so I aborted it and resup with sup -v 
standard-supfile later which completed the entire sup.  However, I had 
problems building a kernel as it said don't know how to make target and 
then when I did a make world, it would stop when it did the sysinstall 
part.  Anyone have any ideas?  Thanks.

Mark
Telebit Corporation


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 15:36:14 1995
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	id AA06349; Tue, 31 Jan 95 00:32:32 +0100
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 00:32:32 +0100
From: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr (Jean-Marc Zucconi)
Message-Id: <9501302332.AA06349@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>
To: dgy@seagull.rtd.com
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199501301556.IAA23121@seagull.rtd.com> (message from Don Yuniskis on Mon, 30 Jan 1995 08:56:17 -0700 (MST))
Subject: Re: ispell-3.01.13 and current
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>>>>> "Don" == Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com> writes:

 >> ispell-3.1.13 and the latest ispell-3.1.18 are broken. This is why the
 >> version in ports is still at patchlevel 08. A workaround is to switch
 >> to the smaller "american.med" dictionary, but there is no solution if
 >> you want to build a dictionary from raw word lists for others
 >> languages.
 >> I'll ask (again) the ispell maintainer when this will be solved!

 > Actually, I believe 3.1.08 *also* suffers from a broken sed problem.
 > Could you elaborate on the nature of the bugs/problems you are aware
 > of?   Thx, --don

I think the problem is with the creation of affixes from dictionary,
in which sed is not involved:
	Collecting input.
	Finding flag marker.
	Generating roots and affixes.
	Expanding dictionary into EXPANDEDPAIRS.
	Creating list of legal roots/flags.
	Creating list of flags that participate in cross-products.
	Finding prefix and suffix flags.
	Creating awk script.
	Creating cross expansions (pass 0).
	Finding illegal cross expansions (pass 0).
	Creating cross expansions (pass 1).
	Finding illegal cross expansions (pass 1).
	Creating cross expansions (pass 2).
	Finding illegal cross expansions (pass 2).
	Creating cross expansions (pass 3).
	Finding illegal cross expansions (pass 3).
	Finding roots of cross expansions.

	Illegal affix flag character 'a'

	Illegal affix flag character 'a'

	Illegal affix flag character 'a'

	etc.

There is another buglet in the munchlist script (the 'SIGNED' variable
is incorect), which is fixed in the last version.

What exactly is the sed problem?

Jean-Marc.

-- 
    ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
    Jean-Marc Zucconi             |         jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
    Observatoire de Besancon      |    
    F 25010 Besancon cedex        | PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
    =========================================================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 16:18:50 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 09:15:33 +0900
Message-Id: <199501310015.JAA02865@specgw.spec.co.jp>
To: james@hermes.cybernetics.net
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re:iij PPP on demand
In-Reply-To: <199501301641.LAA01038@hermes.cybernetics.net>
From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQjwwZhsoSg==?= 
	=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPV8bKEo=?= Atsushi Murai  <amurai@spec.co.jp>
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James Robinson <james@hermes.cybernetics.net> wrotes:

>I'm about to try to gleam how to enable the autodialing, autologon scripts.

Actually, I did use it between our gateway (1.1.5) and my home
(2.1-development) to enable the autodialing, a couple of days.

One things, port locking file is creat to /var/spool/uucp rather than
/var/spool/locks. ( check pathname.c )

>Very impressed with the package and ease of use (even though the docs are
>in Japanese). I sugggest any PPP user still in 1.1* land give this one
>a shot!

Is there any volunteer who tries to translate Japanese doc to Native English ?

>Thanks you very much Atsushi!!!!

You're welcome. I also forwd your mail to auther.

>James

Atsushi.

P.S. As you see, I've already done porting them to 2.1-develoment and
     Just starting bring into 2.1-develoment tree by weekend.
     will see.

-- 
Atsushi Murai                                         E-Mail: amurai@spec.co.jp
SPEC                                                  Voice : +81-3-3833-5341
System Planning and Engineering Corp.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 16:27:26 1995
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199501302215.XAA00219@yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: exabyte 8200 on freebsd
To: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers list)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 23:15:31 +1596657 (MET)
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Hi

I got my Exabyte for testing. I'd appreciate some 'known good'
dump params and other relevant info.
_     __________________________________________________________________________
 |   / o / /  _   Wilko Bulte             email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl
 |/|/ / / /( (_)  Private FreeBSD site  - Arnhem - The Netherlands
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 17:27:28 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:27:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Daniel Baker <dbaker@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Ferenhite Pro 64 -- X!
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[ Article crossposted from comp.os.386bsd.questions,comp.windows.x.i386bsd,hackers@freebsd.org,dbaker@concorde-mail.neosoft.com,dawes@physics.su.oz.au ]
[ Author was Daniel Baker ]
[ Posted on 30 Jan 1995 23:58:55 GMT ]

I have a Farenhite 64 Pro with 2 megs of Ram -- the PCI version. My 
monitor is a Dell V1528U 15" .  I am trying to get X Windows to run.  It 
isn't working. I've tried making my own Xf86config file, I have run 
xf86config on FreeBSD 2, and asked Other Xers for help.. 

Here is my XF86Config file:

[COPYRIGHT SNIP]

Section "Files"
    FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/"
    FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/"
    FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Speedo/"
    FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/"
    FontPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/"
    RGBPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb"
EndSection

Section "ServerFlags"
EndSection

Section "Keyboard"
    Protocol "Standard"
    AutoRepeat 500 5
    ServerNumLock
EndSection

Section "Pointer"
    Protocol "PS/2"
    Device "/dev/psm0"
    Emulate3Buttons
EndSection

Section "Monitor"
    Identifier "VESA Standard Monitor"
    VendorName "VESA"
    ModelName "Standard Monitor"
    BandWidth 135 MHz
    HorizSync 30-58.5 kHz
    VertRefresh 50-90 Hz
    Modeline "640x480" 25.175 640 664 760 800 480 491 493 525
    #Modeline "640x480" 28.322 640 680 720 864 480 488 491 521
    #Modeline "640x480" 31.5 640 664 704 832 480 489 492 520
    Modeline "800x600" 36 800 824 896 1024 600 601 603 625
    #Modeline "800x600" 40 800 848 1000 1056 600 605 607 633
    #Modeline "800x600" 50 800 856 976 1040 600 637 643 666 
    Modeline "1024x768" 65 1024 1032 1176 1344 768 771 777 806
    #Modeline "1024x768" 75 1024 1048 1184 1328 768 771 777 806 


EndSection

Section "Device"
    Identifier "Orchid Farenheit Pro64"
    VendorName "Orchid"
    BoardName "Farenheit Pro64"
    ClockChip "s3_sdac"
    RamDac "s3_sdac"
    MemBase 0x80000000
#   Option "power_saver"
EndSection

Section "Screen"
    Driver "accel"
    Device "Orchid Farenheit Pro64"
    Monitor "VESA Standard Monitor"
    Subsection "Display"
        Modes "1024x768" 
        ViewPort 0 0
        Virtual 1024 768
    EndSubsection
EndSection
#END OF FILE

Here is what happens when I run X:

XFree86 Version 3.1 / X Window System
(protocol Version 11, revision 0, vendor release 6000)
Operating System: FreeBSD 2.0 
Configured drivers:
  S3: accelerated server for S3 graphics adaptors (Patchlevel 3)
      mmio_928, s3_generic
Using syscons driver with X support (version 1.3)
(using VT number 1)

XF86Config: /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/XF86Config
(**) stands for supplied, (--) stands for probed/default values
(**) Mouse: type: PS/2, device: /dev/psm0, baudrate: 1200,
       3 button emulation
(**) S3: Graphics device ID: "Orchid Farenheit Pro64"
(**) S3: Monitor ID: "VESA Standard Monitor"
(**) FontPath set to "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Speedo/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/"
(--) S3: card type: PCI
(--) S3: chipset:   964 rev. 0
(--) S3: chipset driver: mmio_928
(--) S3: videoram:  2048k
(--) S3: Ramdac type: normal
(--) S3: Ramdac speed: 110
(**) S3: Using S3 Gendac/SDAC programmable clock
(--) S3: Maximum allowed dot-clock: 110.000 MHz
(**) S3: Mode "1024x768": mode clock =  65.000
(--) S3: Using 6 bits per RGB value
(**) S3: Virtual resolution set to 1024x768
(--) S3: Local bus LAW is 0xF3000000
(--) S3: Using a banksize of 2048k, line width of 1024
(--) S3: Using a single 64x64 area for expanding pixmaps
(--) S3: Using 8 planes of 960x1279 at (0,769) aligned 8 as font cache
MIT-SHM extension disabled due to lack of kernel support


Any Ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Daniel Baker

--
Daniel Baker -- NeoSoft FTP/UseNet Administrator	(713)531-8571
DBaker@NeoSoft.COM
DBaker@Concorde-Mail.NeoSoft.COM

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 17:36:23 1995
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From: Steven G Kargl <kargl@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>
Message-Id: <199501310133.RAA00240@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>
Subject: tar dumps core on 950112-SNAP
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (FreeBSD)
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 17:33:07 -0800 (PST)
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Hackers,

Simple question: should tar dump core if it tries to
access /proc where /proc is, of course, mounted as a
procfs?

I am going to start to sup the -current tree, so I 
wanted to backup my entire system.  I cd to / and
simply issued `tar cvf /dev/rst0 .i >& tar.log &'.  The system
barfed on /proc. If /proc is unmounted the tar executes
as expected.  The following error message is printed
to the console.

Jan 30 16:29:31 troutmask /kernel: pid 115: tar: uid 0: exited on signal 11

Will a similar type of error occur with unionfs and memfs?


On other note.  I have built several programs from prep.ai.mit.edu 
(octave-1.1.0, Gnu make-3.71.1), ftp.cs.umb.edu (Karl Berry's distribution
of TeX, dvipsk, and xdvik), and ftp.x.org (xfig-3.1.2, transfig-3.0)
with very few problems.  I quite impressive and thankful for the 
core team's sweat.

One minor problem: Some programs include the following lines:

#include <stdio.h>
int foo() {
   extern char *sys_errlist[];
....
}

FreeBSD-2.[01].x declares

extern __const char *__const sys_errlist[];

in stdio.h.  gcc complains about the redeclaration, then halts
compilation. I modified the sources to read

#include <stdio.h>
#include <sys/param.h>
int foo() {
#if BSD < 199303
   extern char *sys_errlist[];
#endif
....
}

Is this the proper way to handle the problem?


Finally, I have unsubscribed to -hackers because of my $real$ work load.
Please, email any response to me.  I will re-subscribe when life
calms down.

-- 
Steven G. Kargl            | Phone: 206-685-4677 |
Applied Physics Laboratory | Fax:   206-543-6785 |
University of Washington   |---------------------|
1013 NE 40th St            |  FreeBSD 2.0-950112 |
Seattle, WA 98105          |                     |

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 18:22:11 1995
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199501310221.TAA21204@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: ispell / sed bug
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:21:49 -0700 (MST)
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>  > Actually, I believe 3.1.08 *also* suffers from a broken sed problem.
>  > Could you elaborate on the nature of the bugs/problems you are aware
>  > of?   Thx, --don
> 
> I think the problem is with the creation of affixes from dictionary,
> in which sed is not involved:
> 	Collecting input.
> 	Finding flag marker.
> 	Generating roots and affixes.
> 	Expanding dictionary into EXPANDEDPAIRS.
> 	Creating list of legal roots/flags.
> 	Creating list of flags that participate in cross-products.
> 	Finding prefix and suffix flags.
> 	Creating awk script.
> 	Creating cross expansions (pass 0).
> 	Finding illegal cross expansions (pass 0).
> 	Creating cross expansions (pass 1).
> 	Finding illegal cross expansions (pass 1).
> 	Creating cross expansions (pass 2).
> 	Finding illegal cross expansions (pass 2).
> 	Creating cross expansions (pass 3).
> 	Finding illegal cross expansions (pass 3).
> 	Finding roots of cross expansions.
> 
> 	Illegal affix flag character 'a'
> 
> 	Illegal affix flag character 'a'
> 
> 	Illegal affix flag character 'a'
> 
> 	etc.

No!  This bug is caused exactly by the sed bug I've mentioned!
The "D" and "P" operators for sed don't work (P inserts a NUL
instead of a NL and D flushes the line prematurely.).  As a
result, when munchlist tries to break an entry of the form
	alamo/ABCDE
into
	alamo/A
	alamo/B
	alamo/C
	etc.
(purely fictitious example), it instead generates
	alamo/Aalamo/BCDE
(or something like that).  However, the first "/" is used to delimit
the start of the "flags".  So, this is erroneously interpreted as
"alamo" with the flags "Aalamo/BCDE".  If you look at the list of
"Illegal affix flag character" error messages, you'll note that each
successive "illegal flag" is actually the next letter of a word from the
dictionary.  So, you'll end up with serveral MB of error messages if
you build a big dictionary!

An important note:  This bug is present in 3.1.08 also!  The reason you 
never noticed the errors in a 3.1.08 build was because the older versions
"forced" each flag to be valid (i.e. flag = toupper(flag); for all
practical purposes.)  The newer code actually verifies the flag as 
being legal or illegal... hence the abundance of error messages.

I have, unfortunately, not spent the time to *prove* that the
resulting dictionaries contain illegal suffix/affix combinations
(sorry, not high on my todo list  :-( )

> There is another buglet in the munchlist script (the 'SIGNED' variable
> is incorect), which is fixed in the last version.

Ah, I hadn't noticed this...

> What exactly is the sed problem?
> 
> Jean-Marc.

GNU sed 2.05 works correctly (at least, it doesn't exhibit the D & P bug)
However, I haven't tried to rebuild ispell in quite some time... I'd
appreciate any feedback others have to offer (since I supher frum pore
spelink lik moest enjinears... or, is it perhaps, laziness???)

Mercy buckets!
--don

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 18:35:15 1995
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199501310235.TAA21841@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: user id's
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:35:00 -0700 (MST)
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Greetings!
     This may be a "silly" question, but I haven't found a "silly"
answer in a cursory examination of the sources...
     Re:  FBSD 1.1.5.1R (but I suspect *all* *BSD's)
     I (unfortunately) mix upper and lower case in user id's.
I've noticed that a few id's which consist solely of uppercase
characters are prompted for a password (even tho' a password is
not required for the user)  ONLY ON THE FIRST ATTEMPT.  A subsequent
attempt (after "illegal password") will accept the uppercase login.
I imagine this is due to the support for "single-case" only 
terminals (in which the uppercase chars are converted to lowercase
and, since no such user exists, the "Password:" prompt is issued).
    However, it ONLY HAPPENS WITH CERTAIN ID's.  I have several
other all uppercase id's and they are accepted first-time, every-time.
    Ideas?  Pointers??
   Thx, --don

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 20:09:18 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 20:09:14 -0800
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh>
Message-Id: <199501310409.UAA23995@freefall.cdrom.com>
To: hackers
Subject: Optimizing CVS?
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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I would have to say that by this point, waiting around for CVS operations
has taken a significant part of my life for the last 2 years.  It's
great, I love it, but damn is it SLOW! :-(  Anyone out there closer to
the CVS project who could say whether or not thoughts have been straying
to optimization issues now?

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 20:51:59 1995
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Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 23:59:17 -0600
From: BSD <bsd@faser.cs.olemiss.edu>
Message-Id: <199501310559.XAA00964@faser.cs.olemiss.edu>
To: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl
Subject: Re: exabyte 8200 on freebsd
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Here's what I used to use on 1.1.5.1 with an 8205:
rdump 0fdsu root@cy:/dev/nrst0 54000 6000 /dev/rsd0a
rdump 0fdsu root@cy:/dev/nrst0 54000 6000 /dev/rsd0e
exit 0

That should work -- never had problems with it after figuring out the
params :-)

Viren
viren@faser.cs.olemiss.edu

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 23:13:08 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:08:37 +0900
Message-Id: <199501310708.QAA02863@specgw.spec.co.jp>
To: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr
Cc: james@hermes.cybernetics.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: iij PPP on demand
In-Reply-To: <9501301719.AA01447@blaise.ibp.fr>
From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQjwwZhsoSg==?= 
	=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPV8bKEo=?= Atsushi Murai  <amurai@spec.co.jp>
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>And thanks to the one who will hopefully port it to 2.1 !! :-)

It's done unless I don't make any mistake!
Sorry Jordan-san I break a promise that done by end of this weekend. ;-)

Atsushi.

-- 
Atsushi Murai                                         E-Mail: amurai@spec.co.jp
SPEC                                                  Voice : +81-3-3833-5341
System Planning and Engineering Corp.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 23:25:10 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 08:20:37 +0100
From: jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr (Jean-Marc Zucconi)
Message-Id: <9501310720.AA09301@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>
To: dgy@seagull.rtd.com
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199501310221.TAA21204@seagull.rtd.com> (message from Don Yuniskis on Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:21:49 -0700 (MST))
Subject: Re: ispell / sed bug
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>>>>> "Don" == Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com> writes:

 [...]

 > GNU sed 2.05 works correctly (at least, it doesn't exhibit the D & P bug)
 > However, I haven't tried to rebuild ispell in quite some time... I'd
 > appreciate any feedback others have to offer (since I supher frum pore
 > spelink lik moest enjinears... or, is it perhaps, laziness???)

I have tried to make ispell with gnu sed (2.03), and indeed the
problem disapeared!!
Time to another port? :-)

 > Mercy buckets!
 > --don

Jean-Marc

-- 
    ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
    Jean-Marc Zucconi             |         jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
    Observatoire de Besancon      |    
    F 25010 Besancon cedex        | PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
    =========================================================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Jan 30 23:32:21 1995
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From: Thomas Gellekum <thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199501310731.IAA06361@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de>
Subject: Re: faulting memory reference after SIGSEGV?
To: hsu@freefall.cdrom.com (Jeffrey Hsu)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 08:31:37 +0100 (MET)
Cc: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199501301947.LAA08464@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jeffrey Hsu" at Jan 30, 95 11:47:45 am
Organization: Institut f. Hochfrequenztechnik, RWTH Aachen
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Jeffrey Hsu wrote:
> 
> Let me guess, you're working on the garbage collector for some language.
> Which one?

Just trying to port elk (Extension Language Kit, an embeddable scheme
interpreter).

> Here's an example from Boehm's GC,

Do I _have_ to know him?

>     void GC_write_fault_handler(sig, code, scp, addr)
>     int sig, code;
>     struct sigcontext *scp;
>     char *addr;
> 
> where addr is the faulting virtual address.

Hm.  That's actually already implemented in elk, but failed when I
tried it.  I'll have to look into it a bit deeper.

Thanks.

tg

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 00:11:23 1995
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To: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCQjwwZhsoSg==?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCPV8bKEo=?= Atsushi Murai <amurai@spec.co.jp>
cc: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr, james@hermes.cybernetics.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: iij PPP on demand 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 95 16:08:37 +0900."
             <199501310708.QAA02863@specgw.spec.co.jp> 
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 00:09:20 -0800
Message-ID: <3387.791539760@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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Hey, no problem!  Monday is fine for me too! :-)  Real glad to see this
going in!  Now we just need to have Terry translate all the Japanese
are we're completely set! :-)

					Jordan

> >And thanks to the one who will hopefully port it to 2.1 !! :-)
> 
> It's done unless I don't make any mistake!
> Sorry Jordan-san I break a promise that done by end of this weekend. ;-)
> 
> Atsushi.
> 
> -- 
> Atsushi Murai                                         E-Mail: amurai@spec.co.
jp
> SPEC                                                  Voice : +81-3-3833-5341
> System Planning and Engineering Corp.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 01:20:10 1995
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From: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Message-Id: <9501310915.AA04063@blaise.ibp.fr>
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:15:29 +0100 (MET)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199501310409.UAA23995@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 30, 95 08:09:14 pm
X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development ctm#307
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> I would have to say that by this point, waiting around for CVS operations
> has taken a significant part of my life for the last 2 years.  It's
> great, I love it, but damn is it SLOW! :-(  Anyone out there closer to
> the CVS project who could say whether or not thoughts have been straying
> to optimization issues now?

Maybe we should optimize stat(2) before... Ask Remy about the tests
he made between ext2fs and our ffs. Our stat(2) is way slower than the
1.1.5.1 one.

When I used CVS under 1.1.5.1 it was very acceptable. Now, when I
do a cvs update on directories like lib/libc, it is slow.
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT     -=- The daemon is FREE! -=-     roberto@FreeBSD.ORG
   FreeBSD keltia 2.1.0-Development #18: Thu Jan 26 22:22:16 MET 1995

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 01:30:01 1995
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From: David Dawes <dawes@physics.su.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199501310929.AA06869@physics.su.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Ferenhite Pro 64 -- X!
To: dbaker@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM (Daniel Baker)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 20:29:31 +1100 (EST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.90.950130192617.26765A-100000@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> from "Daniel Baker" at Jan 30, 95 07:27:08 pm
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>[ Article crossposted from comp.os.386bsd.questions,comp.windows.x.i386bsd,hackers@freebsd.org,dbaker@concorde-mail.neosoft.com,dawes@physics.su.oz.au ]
>[ Author was Daniel Baker ]
>[ Posted on 30 Jan 1995 23:58:55 GMT ]
>
>I have a Farenhite 64 Pro with 2 megs of Ram -- the PCI version. My 
>monitor is a Dell V1528U 15" .  I am trying to get X Windows to run.  It 
>isn't working. I've tried making my own Xf86config file, I have run 
>xf86config on FreeBSD 2, and asked Other Xers for help.. 

You haven't said what the problem is.

>Section "Device"
>    Identifier "Orchid Farenheit Pro64"
>    VendorName "Orchid"
>    BoardName "Farenheit Pro64"
>    ClockChip "s3_sdac"
>    RamDac "s3_sdac"
>    MemBase 0x80000000
>#   Option "power_saver"
>EndSection

Does this card really have an S3 SDAC??  I'm not aware of any 964 cards
that do, and the XFree86 server certainly does not support this
combination which is why the server reports your ramdac type as
"normal".  What does SuperProbe report for your card, and what does the
server report for the ramdac type when you omit the ramdac line in your
XF86Config?  If all else fails, look at the board and see what the
ramdac part number is.  Where did the above MemBase number come from?
The server thinks it is located at 0xF3000000.

>XFree86 Version 3.1 / X Window System
>(**) S3: Graphics device ID: "Orchid Farenheit Pro64"
>(--) S3: card type: PCI
>(--) S3: chipset:   964 rev. 0
>(--) S3: videoram:  2048k
>(--) S3: Ramdac type: normal
>(--) S3: Ramdac speed: 110
>(**) S3: Using S3 Gendac/SDAC programmable clock
>(--) S3: Maximum allowed dot-clock: 110.000 MHz
>(**) S3: Mode "1024x768": mode clock =  65.000
>(--) S3: Using 6 bits per RGB value
>(**) S3: Virtual resolution set to 1024x768
>(--) S3: Local bus LAW is 0xF3000000
>(--) S3: Using a banksize of 2048k, line width of 1024
>(--) S3: Using a single 64x64 area for expanding pixmaps
>(--) S3: Using 8 planes of 960x1279 at (0,769) aligned 8 as font cache
>MIT-SHM extension disabled due to lack of kernel support

David

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 04:32:03 1995
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: I`m interested in FreeBSD
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 12:31:03 GMT
From: Duncan Forbes McPherson <ceedfm@caledonia.hw.ac.uk>
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Hello there hackers@Freebsd.org

I am a RiscPC owner at herriot watt university in Scotland and am very interested in your freeBSD project
How soon do you expect your beta version to be released??? and how will you release it (ftp?)

Thanks,

Duncan McPherson

ceedfm@caledonia.hw.ac.uk

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 07:43:54 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 08:43:32 -0700
From: osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen)
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: forwarded message from Akihiro Tominaga
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This went out on the BSDI mailing list.  Somebody should track this guy
down and see if we can get it, as it would be useful.


------- start of forwarded message (RFC 934 encapsulation) -------
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Message-Id: <199501311027.TAA01687@nasu.sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Reply-To: tomy@sfc.wide.ad.jp
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:34:28 +0900"
References: <199501310834.RAA03540@shonan.sfc.wide.ad.jp>
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From: Akihiro Tominaga <tomy@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Sender: owner-bsdi-users@bsdi.com
To: "Kirill V. Ermakov" <ekv@mch.chem.msu.su>
Cc: bsdi-users@bsdi.com
Subject: Re: DHCP server for BSD/386?
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 19:27:54 +0900

From: Kazunori Sugiura <uhyo@sfc.wide.ad.jp>
Subject: Forward: Re: DHCP server for BSD/386?
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:34:28 +0900

> >   Does anybody know where can I find DHCP extensions for bootp daemon
> > running on BSD/386 v.1.1?
> 
> At this time, there are no "free" implementations for DHCP that I am aware
> of. I ran this subject by the BSDI folks a few weeks ago so they are aware
> that there is a potential need for it. There are no immediate plans to
> include a DHCP daemon in BSD/OS. (that is to say, without a miracle, there
> will most likely *not* be one in BSD/OS 2.0.)

Hello. I'm a member of WIDE project, which provides Internet for
research in Japan.

We implement DHCP server, client and relay agent running on BSD/386
1.1 and other version of BSD UNIX.  And we plan to port them to BSD/OS
2.0 after release of BSD/OS 2.0.  We will distribute them **as free**
soon.  I'm writing documents for these programs.  Wait for our
release.  Thank you.
- --
Keio UNIV.
WIDE Project.
			Akihiro Tominaga (tomy@sfc.wide.ad.jp)
------- end -------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 09:42:55 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 04:39:30 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199501311739.EAA27602@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, kargl@troutmask.apl.washington.edu
Subject: Re: tar dumps core on 950112-SNAP
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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>Simple question: should tar dump core if it tries to
>access /proc where /proc is, of course, mounted as a
>procfs?

No.  I think /proc is still buggy.  Regular files in it
are irregular.  Some are irregular enough to confuse tar.

BTW, for `cd /proc; wc */*', wc gives up immediately
after not being able to read the first file (0/ctl).

>I am going to start to sup the -current tree, so I 
>wanted to backup my entire system.  I cd to / and
>simply issued `tar cvf /dev/rst0 .i >& tar.log &'.  The system
>barfed on /proc. If /proc is unmounted the tar executes
>as expected.  The following error message is printed
>to the console.

You have to skip /proc somehow.  I use a regexp to weed out
junk in "/" (most mount points, but not /usr).

>One minor problem: Some programs include the following lines:

>#include <stdio.h>
>int foo() {
>   extern char *sys_errlist[];
>....
>}

>FreeBSD-2.[01].x declares

>extern __const char *__const sys_errlist[];
                      ^^it doesn't have this bit probably should

>in stdio.h.  gcc complains about the redeclaration, then halts
>compilation. I modified the sources to read

>#include <stdio.h>
>#include <sys/param.h>
>int foo() {
>#if BSD < 199303
>   extern char *sys_errlist[];
>#endif
>....
>}

>Is this the proper way to handle the problem?

Not really.  It works for one system, but for 100 systems that have
sys_errlist it generalizes to a 100-line ifdef, and then there are
systems that don't have sys_errlist but have strerror()...

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 10:24:18 1995
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Subject: mail(1) from 4.4-lite-current
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 19:23:59 +0100 (MET)
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Hi,

I am having new sources of mail.local that does username.lock file
alike locking on mailboxes. This creature is clearly from 
Berkeley, and it is a newer version thatn ours. 
I'd like to commit it, but than I want to commit the mail(1) as well.
So I'm looking for the current mail sources. 
Does anyone have access to the 4.4 tree? I'd hate to reinvent the wheel ;-()

(btw: the mail.local was appended to a cert advisory and is clearly
public)
This is ours:
static char sccsid[] = "@(#)mail.local.c	8.6 (Berkeley) 4/8/94";

this is the one from cert:
static char sccsid[] = "@(#)mail.local.c	8.18 (Berkeley) 1/25/95";


-Guido

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 10:54:47 1995
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From: "Clay D. Hopperdietzel" <hoppy@appsmiths.com>
Message-Id: <199501311854.MAA08430@anvil.appsmiths.com>
Subject: Some changes to gateway stuff?
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:54:10 -0600 (CST)
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I have a 2.0 box on my desk that wants to use a 1.1.5.1 box as a gateway
out to the internet.

The version of 2.0 which got pressed on CD-ROM seems to think this is a good
idea.  No problem.

I supped CURRENT, and tried to make this work, and had this problem:

	# route add default <blah>
	protocal not supported

Just for fun, I supped the 12 Jan snapshot.  Same thing.

What gives?  

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 12:48:31 1995
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199501312048.NAA21461@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: binaries in CVS tree
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 13:48:12 -0700 (MST)
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Greetings!
   A while back, while discussing CVS, someone indicated they
had compiled/maintained a list of the binaries currently in
the tree (phk??)  Could this list be published/posted?  Also,
any other notes regarding control of the tree under CVS.  I've
been slowly compiling this info but peeking over someone's
shoulder would sure speed things up...
    Thx, --don

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 12:57:50 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199501312057.MAA12118@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: binaries in CVS tree
To: dgy@seagull.rtd.com (Don Yuniskis)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:57:34 -0800 (PST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
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> Greetings!
>    A while back, while discussing CVS, someone indicated they
> had compiled/maintained a list of the binaries currently in
> the tree (phk??)  Could this list be published/posted?  Also,
> any other notes regarding control of the tree under CVS.  I've
> been slowly compiling this info but peeking over someone's
> shoulder would sure speed things up...

Check out the "ctm_scan" program in /usr/src/sbin/ctm/ctm_scan

It can tell you.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 13:04:15 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
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Subject: Re: sys/netipx -Reply
To: supervisor@alb.asctmd.com
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 13:29:58 MST
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
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> Would it make sense to create protocol family callbacks which would be
> available to the ethernet hardware drivers? Is there such an interface
> already defined?

Yes and no.

Callbacks probably mean that you are screwing up load order more than
nything else -- that is, breaking the layering model or otherwise blurring
the distinction between the logical layering.

The "yes" part is that protocols like IPX benefit greatly by peeking into
the packet to know the size before the allocate which cuts the number of
copies by one and (potentially) allows a packet unload directly into the
user buffer.

NetWare uses this internally and has 1/4 the latency in it's stack of the
IPX code in many UNIX implementations ("many" and not "all" because there
are several implementations that have much, much worse latency).

This is very important for request/response architectures, such as SMB
(LANMAN) and NCP (NetWare).

The cost on top of the layering abstraction getting less clean is that
you must have outstanding posted reads to receive a packet, which means
pre-dedicating buffers and other rather uncouth things.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 14:04:46 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9501312131.AA28664@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
To: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 14:31:28 MST
Cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9501310915.AA04063@blaise.ibp.fr> from "Ollivier ROBERT" at Jan 31, 95 10:15:29 am
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> 
> > I would have to say that by this point, waiting around for CVS operations
> > has taken a significant part of my life for the last 2 years.  It's
> > great, I love it, but damn is it SLOW! :-(  Anyone out there closer to
> > the CVS project who could say whether or not thoughts have been straying
> > to optimization issues now?
> 
> Maybe we should optimize stat(2) before... Ask Remy about the tests
> he made between ext2fs and our ffs. Our stat(2) is way slower than the
> 1.1.5.1 one.
> 
> When I used CVS under 1.1.5.1 it was very acceptable. Now, when I
> do a cvs update on directories like lib/libc, it is slow.

Stat needs a lot of work... basically, the new UFS getinfo implementation
sucks badly because of an NFS compatability hack that should have been
made in such a way as to act as a single penalty instead of a per layer
penalty (ie: NFS would still suffer, but UFS would not).

There is also some room for VFS stack collapse once a mount has taken
place; it's possible to drastically reduce the call overhead by using
one of Thomas Rosenthal's tricks and using a top-level call-down vector
that's filled out with the first active element in the stack.  This
works for us because, unlike Rosenthal's work, the stack is assembled
on a per mount basis instead of on a per vnode basis.  This means there
is not near the penalty.

Mount, being an infrequent operation, is generally permitted to be slow
as necessary, although this shouldn't increas things drastically.

Finally, the inode cache needs to be moved over to a vnode cache instead,
and generalized at the comsumer level for the file system (ie: moved the
hell out of UFS).  SVR4 actually has this one right with their DNLC
mechanism, although they (incorrectly) do not allow for use of the DNLC
as a negative hit cache.

Once the vnode->inode cache transition is complete, it should be possible
to prefetch the the vnodes for a particular inode during directory
enumeration.  This fits with the locality-of-reference model which was
used to justify storing a single current directory vnode pointer in the
proc struct (the process current directory).

This won't help with > 15 character file names (the DNLC stly cache will
only cache 16 byte of name data inclusive of the NULL), but since that
is really a rare occurance in a typical U*** FS, this should *significantly*
speed stat operations by avoiding the nami per stat lookup for typical
iterative directory enumerations.  Cranking the buffer area to greater
than 32 bytes total is possible (to push over the 15 character limit), but
not recommended.


When talking about ext2fs, it should be noted that it does a whole lot
of caching of meta-data which is not technically legal, but which it gets
away with because the hardware is much more reliable than when UFS was
first put together.  Most of the synchronus write through is disabled.

This isn't a fair comparison because the reliability is not comparable.


Linux also has a two stage vnode cache -- effectively the same thing as
the SVR4 vnode cache coupled with the VMS second chance cache.  I'm not
convinced of the utility of the second chance cache in light of the
normal POSIX time update semantics, since it seems pretty useless when
you go to do a lookup.  There's also the fact that the cache is not
flushed on a CDROM device on unmount, only on a mount of new media.

The same effect could probably be achieved with less code by holding a
preallocation freelist of vnodes.  The Linux code would seem to have
much faster create times if the creates followed an equal or larger
number of deletes.

There is a finite probability of a terrific explosion in the Linux
cache code when swapping removable media (basically, it returning cached
data from the previous media).  This makes them appear blindingly fast
on CDROM remounts, however.


I'll have more information as I hack more.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 14:19:46 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:19:21 -0500
From: vernick@cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Vernick)
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: pthreads
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Someone mentioned that there is a 'pthreads' library for FreeBSD.  Is
it a lightweight process model? Or something else?  Where can I find
it? I looked in 'ports' but didn't see anything.  Any help would be
appreciated. 

Michael Vernick

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 15:59:04 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 18:58:48 -0500
From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9501312358.AA18319@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Cc: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT), jkh@freefall.cdrom.com,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
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<<On Tue, 31 Jan 95 14:31:28 MST, terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) said:

> Finally, the inode cache needs to be moved over to a vnode cache instead,
> and generalized at the comsumer level for the file system (ie: moved the
> hell out of UFS).  SVR4 actually has this one right with their DNLC
> mechanism, although they (incorrectly) do not allow for use of the DNLC
> as a negative hit cache.

Gee, this sure looks like a vnode cache to me...

/*
 * Look for a the name in the cache. We don't do this
 * if the segment name is long, simply so the cache can avoid
 * holding long names (which would either waste space, or
 * add greatly to the complexity).
 *
 * Lookup is called with ni_dvp pointing to the directory to search,
 * ni_ptr pointing to the name of the entry being sought, ni_namelen
 * tells the length of the name, and ni_hash contains a hash of
 * the name. If the lookup succeeds, the vnode is returned in ni_vp
 * and a status of -1 is returned. If the lookup determines that
 * the name does not exist (negative cacheing), a status of ENOENT
 * is returned. If the lookup fails, a status of zero is returned.
 */
int
cache_lookup(dvp, vpp, cnp)
        struct vnode *dvp;
        struct vnode **vpp;
        struct componentname *cnp;

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 16:19:13 1995
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From: Sean Eric Fagan <sef@kithrup.com>
Message-Id: <199502010018.QAA12854@kithrup.com>
To: terry@cs.weber.edu, wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, roberto@blaise.ibp.fr
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In the case of CVS, most of the stat's it does, apparantly, are to
determine the file type.  In 4.4, this information is in the dirent
structure; apparantly, if you convince cvs to use this information,
it gets much faster.

Sean.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 16:25:17 1995
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199502010024.RAA00477@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: Re: pthreads
To: vernick@cs.sunysb.edu (Michael Vernick)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:24:24 +73700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (FreeBSD hackers)
In-Reply-To: <199501312219.AA18381@cs.sunysb.edu> from "Michael Vernick" at Jan 31, 95 05:19:21 pm
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> Someone mentioned that there is a 'pthreads' library for FreeBSD.  Is
> it a lightweight process model? Or something else?  Where can I find
> it? I looked in 'ports' but didn't see anything.  Any help would be
> appreciated. 

how about /usr/src/lib/libpthread ?   :>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 16:53:51 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502010047.AA00456@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
To: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 17:47:44 MST
Cc: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9501312358.AA18319@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Jan 31, 95 06:58:48 pm
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> <<On Tue, 31 Jan 95 14:31:28 MST, terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) said:
> 
> > Finally, the inode cache needs to be moved over to a vnode cache instead,
> > and generalized at the comsumer level for the file system (ie: moved the
> > hell out of UFS).  SVR4 actually has this one right with their DNLC
> > mechanism, although they (incorrectly) do not allow for use of the DNLC
> > as a negative hit cache.
> 
> Gee, this sure looks like a vnode cache to me...
> 
> /*
>  * Look for a the name in the cache. We don't do this
>  * if the segment name is long, simply so the cache can avoid
>  * holding long names (which would either waste space, or
>  * add greatly to the complexity).
>  *
>  * Lookup is called with ni_dvp pointing to the directory to search,
>  * ni_ptr pointing to the name of the entry being sought, ni_namelen
>  * tells the length of the name, and ni_hash contains a hash of
>  * the name. If the lookup succeeds, the vnode is returned in ni_vp
>  * and a status of -1 is returned. If the lookup determines that
>  * the name does not exist (negative cacheing), a status of ENOENT
>  * is returned. If the lookup fails, a status of zero is returned.
>  */
> int
> cache_lookup(dvp, vpp, cnp)
>         struct vnode *dvp;
>         struct vnode **vpp;
>         struct componentname *cnp;

You're right... but some questions, please:

Is it called in the vncalls layer or in UFS for the hits?

Can I cache a vpp of NULL?

Can I cache a vpp of (struct vnode *)-1 or some other magic cookie to
indicate a negative hit?

Can I flush the cache of a particular vp to support multiple name spaces
for, oh, say, a Linux style umsdos?

Can I flush the cache of all vp's for a given dvp?

Is the code that handles returns in the lookup in the FS or is it in the
vncalls layer?

Is the code that handles cache hits capable of distinguishing between a
NULL (not present in cache) and the magic cookie (not present in directory)?

Is a cache entry considered a hold (open instance) as far as the vnode is
concerned?


If the answer to all these questions (and more that I have pruned from
this list) isn't "YES!", then it needs work (note: it needs work).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 17:00:12 1995
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To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
cc: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman),
        roberto@blaise.ibp.fr, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 95 17:47:44 MST."
             <9502010047.AA00456@cs.weber.edu> 
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:59:33 -0800
Message-ID: <6219.791600373@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> Is it called in the vncalls layer or in UFS for the hits?
> 
> Can I cache a vpp of NULL?
>
> [20 other questions deleted]

Geeze, UTSL!  I think Garrett has rather a lot on his hands without
also having to answer questions that someone of your experience could
easily answer for themselves!  "I am your father, Luke.."

:-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 18:45:13 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 18:47:55 GMT
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@morton.cdrom.com>
Message-Id: <199501311847.SAA13918@morton.cdrom.com>
To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Part of the 2.1 install will be a network configution menu, and on that
menu will be a submenu called `SUP	Configure Software Update Protocol'
And on THAT submenu will be a couple of items, like so:

<up>			..  Go back ..
AboutSUP		All About the Software Update Protocol - READ THIS!
Register		Register for automatic software updates

If you select Register, it will first confirm that you're on the network
and then it will ask you to select a sup server, one of which will be
freefall.cdrom.com.  Are there going to be any others?  If we're going to
do backup sup sites, then the time to do it is SOON!

Ideally, we should have sites in the following countries (initially, anyway):

Australia
Denmark
Germany
Holland
Japan
U.S.A backups

Then once they've selected the closest site, they check off which
distributions they're interested in.  A last sanity check is made to
see that things are actually sort of OK, then they will be _automatically_
subscribed to current@freebsd.org (and maybe even cvs-all@freebsd.org),
a sup file will be generated and they will be asked if they want to:

1. Run it once, now
2. Save the supfile somplace known for future use.
3. Save the supfile and enable sups through cron (at some given time).

And from this point it's off we go.  If they run the sup interactively,
they can also be asked if they want to go build from the sources and
then we can do some sort of `make update' thing.  That's the other thing
we still need to resolve, but we can get back to it later! :-)

So anyway, I'd like two things from you folks initially before I dive in
on this one:

1. A list of backup sup sites.
2. Some feedback on all of the above.

Thanks!

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 19:03:16 1995
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Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:02:06 -1000
From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
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Newsgroups: mail.freebsd.hackers
Path: richard
From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
Subject: archive site for 1.1.5.1 stuff?
Organization: Pegasus Information Systems
Message-ID: <D3AwFz.4KC@pegasus.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 03:02:23 GMT

Is there an archive site somewhere for 1.1.5.1 stuff somewhere?  Stuff
like packages, ports, etc. ... ?



-- 
Richard Foulk		richard@pegasus.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 21:05:18 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502010504.VAA04194@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: jkh@morton.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 21:04:59 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199501311847.SAA13918@morton.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 95 06:47:55 pm
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> freefall.cdrom.com.  Are there going to be any others?  If we're going to
> do backup sup sites, then the time to do it is SOON!
yes.

How about this scenario:

	ftp a file from freefall
	traceroute all of the sites mentioned
	present menu of three closest

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 21:10:10 1995
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From: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <199502010509.FAA01322@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: jkh@morton.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:09:56 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199501311847.SAA13918@morton.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 95 06:47:55 pm
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NOTE: This has gone to core only.

In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who said
> 
> Part of the 2.1 install will be a network configution menu, and on that
> menu will be a submenu called `SUP	Configure Software Update Protocol'
> And on THAT submenu will be a couple of items, like so:
> 
> <up>			..  Go back ..
> AboutSUP		All About the Software Update Protocol - READ THIS!
> Register		Register for automatic software updates
> 

I'm not sure this is a good idea. I'm already getting much too much
mail from users who clearly are not capable of running development
code and I'm really not looking forward to that massively increasing
as every new installer takes up your offer to register for sup.

On top of that I think the load on freefall will make it difficult
for the real developers to work.

> If you select Register, it will first confirm that you're on the network
> and then it will ask you to select a sup server, one of which will be
> freefall.cdrom.com.  Are there going to be any others?  If we're going to
> do backup sup sites, then the time to do it is SOON!
> 

This idea scares the hell out of me too since the mirrors aren't under our
control and these are *development* sources we're talking about not a
release.

> And from this point it's off we go.  If they run the sup interactively,
> they can also be asked if they want to go build from the sources and
> then we can do some sort of `make update' thing.  That's the other thing
> we still need to resolve, but we can get back to it later! :-)
> 

You've got to be kidding. The number of times a make world actually
runs, from beginning to end, flawlessly are few and far between.
People *will* try and do this if you offer it to them during installation
and in all likelyhood it'll fall flat on its face most of the time.

In all seriousness, I'm getting more mail than I want from "not
quite" newbies who ask dumb questions like, what do I do after I
sup, how often should I make world and so forth. When you dangle
a carrot like this in front of people they take it and the result
will be that every user on the net will be supping current and
complaining to us when things aren't quite working. We're seeing
quite a lot of this in the mailing lists already because of the
SNAP's, which, incidentally we should put big red warning signs
around since people are getting the wrong impression about them
and expecting them to actually work :-).

Well, you asked for comments :-)
-- 
  Paul Richards, FreeBSD core team member. 
  Phone: +44 1222 874000 x6646 (work), +44 1222 457651 (home)
  Dept. Mechanical Engineering, University of Wales, College Cardiff.
  Internet: paul@FreeBSD.org,  JANET(UK): RICHARDSDP@CARDIFF.AC.UK

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 21:11:39 1995
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
cc: jkh@morton.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 95 21:04:59 PST."
             <199502010504.VAA04194@ref.tfs.com> 
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 21:11:14 -0800
Message-ID: <26086.791615474@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

You're joking, right?  Right??! :-)

> > freefall.cdrom.com.  Are there going to be any others?  If we're going to
> > do backup sup sites, then the time to do it is SOON!
> yes.
> 
> How about this scenario:
> 
> 	ftp a file from freefall
> 	traceroute all of the sites mentioned
> 	present menu of three closest
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
> TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
> FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 21:12:59 1995
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From: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <199502010512.FAA01365@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: paul@isl.cf.ac.uk (paul)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:12:37 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: jkh@morton.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "paul" at Feb 1, 95 05:09:56 am
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In reply to paul who said
> 
> 
> NOTE: This has gone to core only.
> 

Actually, it didn't. Forgot I put that in.

-- 
  Paul Richards, FreeBSD core team member. 
  Phone: +44 1222 874000 x6646 (work), +44 1222 457651 (home)
  Dept. Mechanical Engineering, University of Wales, College Cardiff.
  Internet: paul@FreeBSD.org,  JANET(UK): RICHARDSDP@CARDIFF.AC.UK

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 21:28:30 1995
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To: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 05:09:56 GMT."
             <199502010509.FAA01322@isl.cf.ac.uk> 
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 21:28:15 -0800
Message-ID: <29186.791616495@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> I'm not sure this is a good idea. I'm already getting much too much
> mail from users who clearly are not capable of running development
> code and I'm really not looking forward to that massively increasing
> as every new installer takes up your offer to register for sup.

Well, we've been here before (the old ``Do we really want to encourage
all these newbies??'' argument) and so I'll (hopefully, please please)
avoid a rehash by simply saying:

We have no choice.

1. As long as we offer sup as a service, people will use it.

2. Using obfuscation as an initiation right tends to backfire - sure,
   it keeps rank newbies from using it, but it doesn't stop them from
   asking stupid questions about how to use it.  Believe me, the questions
   don't go away, they just get redirected.

3. Not documenting something allows someone to interpret it any way they
   want, for both good and ill.  If you don't provide a path to sup, then
   you also can't make sure that most people read a certain amount
   of doc before they start trying to use it.  Most of the problems I
   get are from people saying ``I have to subscribe to a mailing list?
   Where the hell does it SAY that??'' and of course I have to answer that
   it DOESN'T say that! :-)

If you think we can keep newbies away by not documenting things then you're
living in a fool's paradise.  We can't keep them away, we simply get newbies
who are more clueless than even they have to be! :-)

> You've got to be kidding. The number of times a make world actually
> runs, from beginning to end, flawlessly are few and far between.
> People *will* try and do this if you offer it to them during installation
> and in all likelyhood it'll fall flat on its face most of the time.

You're not reading my mail about update procedures then.  This state
of affairs is NOT ACCEPTABLE, and arguing that we can't go from point
A to point B because there's always been this big, ugly dog standing
in the middle of the road is just no substitute for finally getting
up and scaring that dog away! :-)

Seriously, this whole attitude of ``We can't let them into our inner
sanctum!  They'll do bad things!'' just has to stop.  It's
counter-productive, and the plain fact of the matter is that we ARE
EXPORTING THESE SOURCES!  FreeBSD-current is available on dozens of
archive sites, and unless you also propose to yank -current out of the
mainstream entirely then there's no excuse for not trying to make it
work as seamlessly as possible.  More importantly, and no matter what
my and your feelings about it may be, it's what OUR USERS HAVE BEEN
ASKING FOR!  We cannot pretend to be a real operating system
environment while continuing to ignore such long-stated needs so
blatantly.

I'll be even more contraversal: We either go for much more serious
quality in our documentation and presentation or we will go the way of
UNIX everywhere - slowly and painfully into ancient history.  I bring
up OS/2 Warp and it brings up the IBM Library manager.  I bring up
FreeBSD and it gives me..  A prompt.

Sorry, but that just leaves me cold.  I thought command-line
interfaces were cool about 12 years ago, but I've grown up since
then.. :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 21:50:14 1995
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From: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <199502010550.FAA01921@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 05:50:20 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <29186.791616495@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 95 09:28:15 pm
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In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who said
> 
> > I'm not sure this is a good idea. I'm already getting much too much
> > mail from users who clearly are not capable of running development
> > code and I'm really not looking forward to that massively increasing
> > as every new installer takes up your offer to register for sup.
> 
> Well, we've been here before (the old ``Do we really want to encourage
> all these newbies??'' argument) and so I'll (hopefully, please please)
> avoid a rehash by simply saying:
> 

......

> 
> Seriously, this whole attitude of ``We can't let them into our inner
> sanctum!  They'll do bad things!'' just has to stop.  It's
> counter-productive, and the plain fact of the matter is that we ARE
> EXPORTING THESE SOURCES!  FreeBSD-current is available on dozens of
> archive sites, and unless you also propose to yank -current out of the
> mainstream entirely then there's no excuse for not trying to make it
> work as seamlessly as possible.  More importantly, and no matter what
> my and your feelings about it may be, it's what OUR USERS HAVE BEEN
> ASKING FOR!  We cannot pretend to be a real operating system
> environment while continuing to ignore such long-stated needs so
> blatantly.

Hey, I'm all for more people in the inner sanctum, as long as they know
that standing on the edge of the burning coals is risky and we haven't
really got time to console them when they burn their feet. If you
wander into the inner sanctum then you should *expect* to burn your feet
but you're big enough not to winge about a few little blisters.

That's why I think there should be these big signs on the doors which
say "Only enter here if you used to be a stoker on the railways" so people
don't just wander in just to have a look around and end up getting badly
burnt. Rather than a big flashing neon which says, "Enter here if you
want a good time" :-)




-- 
  Paul Richards, FreeBSD core team member. 
  Phone: +44 1222 874000 x6646 (work), +44 1222 457651 (home)
  Dept. Mechanical Engineering, University of Wales, College Cardiff.
  Internet: paul@FreeBSD.org,  JANET(UK): RICHARDSDP@CARDIFF.AC.UK

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 22:15:16 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502010609.AA05519@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 23:09:10 MST
Cc: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu, roberto@blaise.ibp.fr,
        jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <6219.791600373@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 95 04:59:33 pm
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> > Is it called in the vncalls layer or in UFS for the hits?
> > 
> > Can I cache a vpp of NULL?
> >
> > [20 other questions deleted]
> 
> Geeze, UTSL!  I think Garrett has rather a lot on his hands without
> also having to answer questions that someone of your experience could
> easily answer for themselves!  "I am your father, Luke.."

The point was not to get an answer, but to point out the deficiencies
of the code that supposedly did what I was suggesting.

The answer to many of those questions was "no".


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 22:22:23 1995
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@morton.cdrom.com>
cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 08:20:38 +0200
From: Mark Murray <mark@grondar.za>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> 2. Some feedback on all of the above.

This scares the willies out of me. OK - so I'm not on the firing line,
so what should I care, but I am in the support business (I am a net
engineer for a commercial Internet service provider) and my experience
that a lot of people just press buttons because they "look cool".
They have NO CONCEPT of what they are doing and they FREAK when things
go wrong.

I fully agree that it should be piss-easy to get SUPping going, but I
think it shoulid be something that folks find later while they are tuning
their systems, rather than while they are still freaked out and confused.

The SUP servers will NAILED if this is not done carefully...

M

--
Mark Murray
46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa
+27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 23:17:15 1995
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Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:05:57 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <29186.791616495@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 95 09:28:15 pm
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Jordan K. Hubbard writes:
> 
> If you think we can keep newbies away by not documenting things then you're
> living in a fool's paradise.  We can't keep them away, we simply get newbies
> who are more clueless than even they have to be! :-)

This is a point that needs additional reinforcement.

A friend of mine and I have a lot of experience working with different
flavors of Unix.  We also happen to be a significant players at CTSNET
(a major Internet access provider in San Diego).  We have been amazed
at how poorly documented routine procedures for FreeBSD happen to be.

We're looking at FreeBSD as a potentially serious supplement to our
existing WAN/LAN structure which is currently relying on SCO Unix for
much of the host, server, and administrative tasks for more than 4,000
subscribers.  Using dual news servers, we pick up one of the largest
newsfeeds in Southern California with more than 11,000 groups, and
have an extremely active WWW server that is currently hitting about 2
million accesses per month.  The collective knowlegdge and experience
to keep all this going between just the two of us is about 25 years.

That picture painted, getting things to happen with FreeBSD has been
less than smooth, mainly because there is a lot of exploration
involved just to find the answers.  (In a previous message, I liked
FreeBSD to an adventure game).  My friend, fortunately, has had the
advantage of asking me how to accomplish basic things like getting sup
working, only because I've already done a lot of the footwork before
him.  I think the attribution of "newbie" is misleading.  Sure, we may
be newbies to FreeBSD, but certainly not to Unix OS's in general, and
not to "good design expectations".

In lieu of adminstrator's manuals that basically give an overview of
what makes FreeBSD work, there should be some kind of roadmap that
spells things out clearly.  Here's how you get the sources so you can
at least recompile your kernel.  Here's how you set up sup so you can
get the bug fixes to those sources you just picked up.  Here's how you
reconfig your kernel to turn your machine into a network router.
Here's how you easily get PPP working.  Here's how you...  The current
FreeBSD.FAQ is horrible and filled with incorrect information.  This
is not a roadmap.  It's a hack.

After I installed 2.0R in November just after it was released, I
exited from the nice installer interface wondering, OK, now how do I
get back to that?  The installer ought to be EASILY reentrant -- I had
no idea where it ran or how to get back to it once it quit.  And it
should also assume that the user may want to come back to it to do
other things and really make a lot of noise about proceding with
things like fdisk and disklabelling, post-install.  It also seems to
want to find its FAQ files and read me files on the boot floopy and
not in /usr/share/FAQ as a secondary (or perhaps primary location).
Etc. etc.  Now, I realize that much is being done about the
documentation.  There is a web site that will tie all this together.
And that's really great, and perhaps I'm digressing a bit.

But the idea of not making it easy for what I would consider to be
"expert" users to get FreeBSD working in the best way turns your user
base into: a) a bunch of uninformed people who can't make accurate
statements about FreeBSD, b) a bunch of people who think FreeBSD is a
joke because you can't do anything with it, or c) something worse than
those, like a bunch of people wanting to return to Linux.  :-)

And by "making it easy" -- I don't mean spoonfeeding, handholding,
etc., which many seem to think is bad since it would mean educating
those who should even own pocket calculators so that they could
possibly administrate a FreeBSD system.  But, heck, if you did *that*,
then you've just done something pretty amazing.  What's wrong with
that?  Give users the tools and information to reasonably educate
themselves.

The alternative is lack of support for FreeBSD since it embodies no
real support for those interested in checking it out.  You'll either
wind up with total indifference to what FreeBSD is all about while
people move to something else, or you'll end up with a group of
frustrated people who just gave up and have nothing good to say.
Sure, sharing the information may be painful at times.  But, as the
net continues to teach us everyday, information withheld is a more
terrible consequence.

The frustrating thing?  I know that there is greatness here.  Why hide
it?

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 23:29:11 1995
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To: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 05:50:20 GMT."
             <199502010550.FAA01921@isl.cf.ac.uk> 
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:28:08 -0800
Message-ID: <6709.791623688@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> That's why I think there should be these big signs on the doors which
> say "Only enter here if you used to be a stoker on the railways" so people
> don't just wander in just to have a look around and end up getting badly
> burnt. Rather than a big flashing neon which says, "Enter here if you
> want a good time" :-)

I think we're in violent agreement.. :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 23:32:06 1995
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To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard), wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu,
        roberto@blaise.ibp.fr, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 95 23:09:10 MST."
             <9502010609.AA05519@cs.weber.edu> 
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:31:50 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> The point was not to get an answer, but to point out the deficiencies
> of the code that supposedly did what I was suggesting.

Grumble.  You know what I hate?  Rhetorical questions! :-)

Perhaps it would have been more constructive (IMHO) to have simply
pointed out where the current code wasn't doing any of those things.
Or, better yet, to have sent diffs to do all these things! ;-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Jan 31 23:56:00 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502010755.XAA19507@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:55:46 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <29186.791616495@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 95 09:28:15 pm
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OK, I just had a chat with Jordan over a piece of cake (it's true !)

>>> I belive that sup needs to die for all "src-current" use  <<<

I can still see a mission for it in the cvs-* area, where committers may 
want to get a up-to-the-minute copy of the cvs tree.

But for src-current:
It is stupid.  Look at it:  We run sup-scan every 8 hours, then
we download individual sets of files to each user based on timestamps.
That's not particular smart.  We have probably all been hit by the
zero byte file with the right timestamp havn't we ?

Imagine the email ?  "Well I sup'ed at 10:24AM (Tanzania time) from the 
mirror at zulu.foo.haiti and I see this bug..."  Nobody can tell what 
version this person is running.

And all the mirrors have to run supserver ?  No way they will.

Here is my counter suggestion:
------------------------------

We set up a machine, (thud probably) to run a shell script X times per day
(X in [1..4]) which does a "make cleandist ; make obj ; make all" and if
that succeeds it produces a CTM delta, which gets put in the public
area on ftp.freebsd.org automatically and emailed to the ctm-src-cur 
mailing list at the same time.

Advantages:

Ftp can be used for transfer, it is much more efficient than sup
I'm well connected, 6 hops to freefall, and I only use 50% of my
modems bandwidth with sup.. :-(

On top of that: CTM transfers only the changes, not the entire file
each time a line is touched.

People can ftp at the work/university and carry floppies home if they 
wish.

People can stay current via email too.

The mirrors will not even have to think about what's in the files.  They
can just be ftp-mirrors as usual.

CTM uses md5, so it will detect if people have corrupt files.

We get a sequence of "snapshots" where we know that the tree isn't entirely
broken.

People get a version handle they can use for reporting:  the CTM-delta number.
We can even make send-pr pick it up if we want to.

We linearizes the load on freefall.  More "customers" doesn't mean more load.

Is CTM ready to do this ?
-------------------------

Almost, I think.

It will need a little work, but not too much, compared to the
mess we would have to clean up with sup.

And it should be moved to freefall/thud instead of ref.

We may need a special "synchronize" version of ctm, where people can
run a program, send the output and receive a special delta, which will
get them up to date, but that is comparable to the load of sup today,
so that should be a cheap service to run...

Alternatives:
-------------
Some serious improvements to sup.

OK, so there, I opened my big mouth again.

I hope to get support from some of the people who ran or runs CTM...
(What needs to be better ?  You guys are remarkably silent ! 
speak up !   Now is the time to retrospectively get on the cutting
edge :-)

Will anybody be willing to step in and help make CTM perfect ?  I will
clearly not have all the time to do this myself and be the 2.1 release
engineer at the same time...
I wouldn't mind handing the thing over to somebody else entirely if 
somebody were to step forward...  (HINT HINT !)

What do you think ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 00:08:35 1995
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To: Morgan Davis <root@io.cts.com>
cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 95 23:05:57 PST."
             <199502010705.XAA01059@io.cts.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 00:07:50 -0800
Message-ID: <9872.791626070@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> A friend of mine and I have a lot of experience working with different
> flavors of Unix.  We also happen to be a significant players at CTSNET
> (a major Internet access provider in San Diego).  We have been amazed
> at how poorly documented routine procedures for FreeBSD happen to be.

Thank you for articulating so well my exact feelings!

It's a sad reflection on some of the downsides of the whole ``hacker
ethic'' when you hear some of our own core team members say, with a
twinge of perverse pride, that "They've never installed FreeBD from
scratch."  Then try sitting behind a _skilled programmer_ who's
totally new to FreeBSD sometime and watch him try to install the
system.  You may even learn a few new words! :-)

Now not to beat on the core people too much - a big reason a lot of
them never install has to do with resources.  They have one key
machine they can't afford to lose or they're balls-to-the-wall on some
project and don't have time to spend on things like watching FreeBSD
install.  But it's still pretty important, nonetheless, and getting
involved in *doing* the FreeBSD installation is almost an exercise in
controlled dispair.  Once you start really getting into it, you're
struck by the sheer magnitude of what's MISSING.  Argh!  Just sit down
for 10 minutes and you can think up about 20 things that somebody
REALLY should go off and document, or automate, or even just plain
FIX!

So yes, there's very little that's truly OBVIOUS about the system and
obvious is what it all really needs to be.  Why?  For the rank newbies
who just want to say they ran a UNIX on their PC?  No!  For me, it's
doing it for the professionals who are in a DIFFERENT AREA of the
industry!  People who are doing graphics, or video mixing, or service
providerships, or audio work, or games development, or counting
tree-rings (really!) or any one of a hundred different things that *I*
think are cool!  I want those people running FreeBSD so that I can use
it as a springboard to go find out more about THEIR stuff!  Just
having a stupid OS sitting here staring at you is BORING! :-) :-)

And for all of those people, being wholly trained in other disciplines
that may not include operating systems, they need FreeBSD to be EASY
TO INSTALL and EASY TO USE.  They need to be able to relate it quickly
to the kind of work THEY are doing or clearly there's no point in
running FreeBSD for them!

I am ambitious.  I want to see FreeBSD running at ice stations,
monitoring weather equipment and making the data available over the
Internet.  I want to see it in high schools and colleges, providing
cheap instructional computing.  And I want to see it in small and
medium sized businesses doing Real Work(tm).

I know that I will not see it doing any of those things if it is not
easy to install and easy to use.  I shall therefore be putting ALL of
my spare effort over the next year (I hope!) into this area and let
other folks worry about the kernel and general system integrity.  They
do that better than I do anyway! :-)

> After I installed 2.0R in November just after it was released, I
> exited from the nice installer interface wondering, OK, now how do I
> get back to that?  The installer ought to be EASILY reentrant -- I had

In 2.1, that nice installer and "the nice system management tool" will
be two seperate things, and much more directly pointed at.  In 2.0,
sysinstall never really crawled above being just a one-off installer
and thus we weren't exactly keen to point people at it! :-)

> The frustrating thing?  I know that there is greatness here.  Why hide
> it?

Sigh.  I would like that on a T-shirt:

Front of shirt:
		"UNIX" (big letters)

Back of shirt:
		"Even though we did our best to hide it,
		   there's some great stuff in here!"

:-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 00:18:37 1995
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !! 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 95 23:55:46 PST."
             <199502010755.XAA19507@ref.tfs.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 00:18:24 -0800
Message-ID: <16399.791626704@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> OK, I just had a chat with Jordan over a piece of cake (it's true !)

Well, like I told you at the time (between mouthfuls): If, by the time
I get done with my second-stage stuff for the 2.1 install, sup is dead
then I won't document it.

That is to say, if you and your brave (and sometimes merry) band of
CTM volunteers succeed in making it the all-singing, all-dancing,
all-high-fiber equivalent of sliced bread and hot sex with pert-nosed
California girls who, well, never mind let's not get into that, if you
and your CTM people manage to pull it off then this will be be good
and I will also document it.

If you don't, then I will still document sup because we will still be
using it and, as I also said to you over the same cake, our motto for
2.1 should be:  "Either kill it or document it."

How's that?

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 00:22:40 1995
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !! 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 95 23:55:46 PST."
             <199502010755.XAA19507@ref.tfs.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 00:22:26 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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P.S.

Is it currently possible to set someone up with a special CTM alias in
their /etc/aliases that will allow freefall to send them patches which get
filed and applied automatically?  That way, to register for CTM updates
a user just says "Sure, I'm willing" and it sends off a subscription request
to the nearest CTM site for doing it by mail, or sets up some sort of mirror
to grab it via ftp, and adds the alias so that it's all automatic after
that.  The user gets daily/weekly/monthly/whatever reports from CTM when it
changes things and they can do with those whatever they wish.

THAT would be very cool.  Totally automated and unattended.  We update people
by sending email to a special address on their machine.  I like it.

We might need to go to PGP authentication at some point so that only WE
can generate official patches, but that's down the road.

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 01:21:52 1995
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	id AA23141; Wed, 1 Feb 95 10:22:53 +0100
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 10:22:53 +0100
From: cg@FIMP01.fim.uni-linz.ac.at (DI. Christian Gusenbauer)
Message-Id: <9502010922.AA23141@FIMP01.fim.uni-linz.ac.at>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: TCP/IP benchmarking
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Hi!

I had to develop a TCP/IP driver for an Intel 80596 and an Intel 80960 CA. Now,
I tried to test its performance and so I connected a DECstation 5000/240 with
the i960/80596 and run a benchmark. There were no other machines connected
to this segment, and only neccessary programs were running on the DEC.

To send 10000 packets from the DEC to the i960 and vice versa, it takes about
20 to 61 seconds (for packets with 128/1536 Byte). To verify these tests, I
connected a 486 DX/2 66 MHz running FreeBSD-current and a 386 33 MHz (both
boxes with NE2000 comp. network cards) running 1.1.5. I repeated my tests and
I have to say, that FreeBSD is much faster!

But, starting with packet sizes > 1024 Byte, FreeBSD takes about 120 to
130 seconds to finish the benchmarks and that's much slower. So I want to
ask all TCP/IP-hackers if you know, why?

Is a packet size of more than 1024 Byte a problem for FreeBSD?

Thanks, for all replies!
Christian.

PS: If you want, you can find my little benchmark "bench.c" on
    ftp.fim.uni-linz.ac.at:/pub/soft/unix.


-----------------------------
DI. Christian Gusenbauer
gusenbauer@fim.uni-linz.ac.at

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 01:31:18 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 01:31:15 -0800
From: Jeffrey Hsu <hsu>
Message-Id: <199502010931.BAA27914@freefall.cdrom.com>
To: jkh
Subject: POS (was Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

  I am ambitious.  I want to see FreeBSD running at ice stations, ...
  And I want to see it in small and medium sized businesses doing
  Real Work(tm).

Point of sales systems are a big part of SCO Unix sales and one of
the most common business applications.  These POS packages are
usually custom-built vertical applications with the operating system
bundled in.  Does anyone want to put one together for FreeBSD?  I
figure the first thing we need is a barcode reader.  We could use
tk or tkperl for the front-end and use sql to pass data to some
database, running on some other machine.  Eventually, we'll want
to have that running on FreeBSD too.  (Sybase or Oracle employees
take note:  lobby your local VP.  Better yet, do the port, then
lobby your VP.)  I figure we already have the networking requirements
covered.  There are other architectures, usually involving terminals,
but we've got to start somewhere.

							Jeffrey

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 02:01:48 1995
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To: Jeffrey Hsu <hsu@freefall.cdrom.com>
cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: POS (was Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 01:31:15 PST."
             <199502010931.BAA27914@freefall.cdrom.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 02:01:19 -0800
Message-ID: <17408.791632879@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

> Point of sales systems are a big part of SCO Unix sales and one of
> the most common business applications.  These POS packages are
> usually custom-built vertical applications with the operating system
> bundled in.  Does anyone want to put one together for FreeBSD?  I

I don't really feel like putting one together myself (I've *done* POS
systems; I cut my teeth on the damn things!  I don't want to do them
ever again! :-) but I strongly support the sentiment!

I've long felt that 2 or 3 dedicated hackers could easily put a
warehousing or POS network together with dedicated entry terminals
(those vt100's really take a beating and keep going! :-) hooked to a
FreeBSD server box.  The console of the box itself could run a little
application monitor in snazzy syscons colors on some cheapo 14"
monitor and VGA card.  When the sysop wants to work on it, he or she
even has up to 12 virtual screens to work on - woo!  That's a lot
better than the console interface of any of the systems I used to put
together! :-)

In situations where even that's impractical, they could use the serial
console stuff and a suitably chosen machine racked in a sealed,
dustproof (sort of) rack.  No vga display or keyboard to cause
problems, just a rack and those little industrial terminals and their
twisted pair serial connections down on the shop floor.

For databases, they could go Ingres or even spend some time beating on
postgres to make it something more of what they want.  For a lot of
applications, however, even that's overkill and they could always just
use their own file format and B-trees or something.  The DB package we
ship with isn't even that bad now, actually, and you could certainly
do something like a small sawmill's work-order database with it.

Any way you slice it, if you're sure that your underlying OS is stable
then you can put the rest together with off-the-shelf PC components
(that you've tested extensively) and some custom code of your own.

Get a reseller's certification for the low hardware pricing and then
walk into small businesses and undercut the turnkey bids.  Not hard,
since most turnkey systems are EXPENSIVE.  It would be an uphill road
to climb in competing with the quality of the turnkey software, but
even that shouldn't be too hard for 3 really BRIGHT folks with solid
motivation to build their own company in that business.  It's even
kind of fun.  You get to see how a lot of busineses work that you
never even really thought much about before!  Ever wonder how they
make fish tanks?  Or plastic cups?  Or comic books?  Or auto parts?
I could talk to you about all of these things from the production
automation side.. :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 03:44:54 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:41:59 +0100
From: Ollivier Robert <Ollivier.Robert@hsc.fr.net>
Message-Id: <199502011141.MAA17954@sidhe.hsc-sec.fr>
To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: NFS V3 Alpha release (fwd)
Reply-To: roberto@hsc.fr.net (Ollivier Robert)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd,comp.protocols.nfs,comp.os.386bsd.misc
In-Reply-To: <3gm938$inb@ccshst05.cs.uoguelph.ca>
Organization: Herve Schauer Consultants, Paris, France
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Just saw that on UseNet...

------- start of forwarded message -------
From: rmacklem@uoguelph.ca (Rick Macklem)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd,comp.protocols.nfs,comp.os.386bsd.misc
Subject: NFS V3 Alpha release
Date: 31 Jan 1995 21:12:08 GMT
Organization: University of Guelph
Summary: Alpha test release of NFS V3
Keywords: NFS

For any daring soul who is interested, there is an Alpha test release of
NFS code that includes support for NFS Version 3 and assorted other new
features up anonymous ftpable from snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca [131.104.48.1]
in /pub/nfs.

This code has only been tested in FreeBSD2.0R, but should be runable in
other 4.4BSD-Lite based operating systems withou too much effort.

Good luck if you decide to try it, rick
ps: Be sure to read the Readme.nfsv3 file before deciding to go ahead 
    with it.

------- end of forwarded message -------

-- 
Ollivier ROBERT  -=-=-  Hervé Schauer Consultants -=-=-   roberto@hsc.fr.net
-=-=-=-=-=- Support The Free UNIX Systems ! FreeBSD NetBSD Linux -=-=-=-=-=-

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 03:53:20 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:51:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Michael Reifenberger <root@rz-wb.fh-sw.de>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
In-Reply-To: <199502010755.XAA19507@ref.tfs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.91.950201123343.3895B-100000@rz-wb.fh-sw.de>
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But don't forget to say to the people:

CURRENT SOURCES CAN KILL YOUR MACHINE/FS/DATA

o Stress that current is alpha code.
o You have to teach how to get consistency between kernel/userland stuff.
  (Maybe CTM patches must contain scripts to rebuild some stuff
  in the right order)

Do you remember the troubles due the locale support in libc?

On the other side a CTM based current policy would reach more people
since it is cheaper to have email than ip access.

Bye!
....
Michael Reifenberger


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 03:56:30 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 11:56:29 GMT
From: "Henry Chung <hchung.IE.oramail@ie.oracle.com>" <hchung@ie.oracle.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Support for IDE or Sound Blaster interface CD-ROM
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Does anyone know what is the current state of the above in future releases of
FreeBSD? Thank you very much for your hlep, appreciated.

Regards,

--
  Henry Hyen-Vui Chung

================================================================================
ICL Product Line Developer		Oracle Europe Manufacturing Ltd.
e-mail: hchung@ie.oracle.com		Maretimo Court, Temple Road
Tel   : 353 12834700 ext 220		Blackrock, Co. Dublin
Fax   : 353 12834732			Republic of Ireland.

-----------------------------------oOo------------------------------------------

                                                              
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                               
                                                                                
                                                                                
                                                                             
                                                                                                       

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 04:14:10 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 04:14:09 -0800
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh>
Message-Id: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com>
To: hackers
Subject: this is silly - really!
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
capitalize after punctuation? this used to sort of bother me until finally
the light dawned yesterday and i understood - it's a lot *faster* to
type when you ignore case!  gee! revelation! :-)  now it's no coincidence
that all my very busiest friends all started doing this around the
same time! :-)

on the other hand, as you can plainly see, it looks kinda stupid.

it is certainly much faster to type, and you run into less run-on mistakes
where you get two letters cap'd and then you have to go back and muck it all
up for awhile until finally you can go on to the next word.  bah.

so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
elegant?  :-)

					jordan


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 04:40:52 1995
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From: Peter Dufault <dufault@hda.com>
Message-Id: <199502011239.HAA13374@hda.com>
Subject: Re: pthreads
To: dgy@seagull.rtd.com (Don Yuniskis)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 07:39:55 -0500 (EST)
Cc: vernick@cs.sunysb.edu, freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502010024.RAA00477@seagull.rtd.com> from "Don Yuniskis" at Jan 31, 95 05:24:24 pm
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Don Yuniskis writes:
> 
> > Someone mentioned that there is a 'pthreads' library for FreeBSD.  Is
> > it a lightweight process model? Or something else?  Where can I find
> > it? I looked in 'ports' but didn't see anything.  Any help would be
> > appreciated. 
> 
> how about /usr/src/lib/libpthread ?   :>
> 

I don't think it is in 2.0:

> % ls -lt /usr/src/lib/libpthread
> ls: /usr/src/lib/libpthread: No such file or directory

And on freefall:

> % ls -lt /home/ncvs/src/lib/libpthread
> ls: /home/ncvs/src/lib/libpthread: No such file or directory

It goes on my TODO list if no one else has it.

Peter

-- 
Peter Dufault               Real Time Machine Control and Simulation
HD Associates, Inc.         Voice: 508 433 6936
dufault@hda.com             Fax:   508 433 5267
--  Formerly hd@world.std.com.  E-mail problems? Tell hdslip@iii.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 04:46:02 1995
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From: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Message-Id: <9502011245.AA09786@blaise.ibp.fr>
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:45:05 +0100 (MET)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 04:14:09 am
X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development ctm#307
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> so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
> elegant?  :-)

Slower but more elegant (at least for what I write). It is not an
english grammar/spelling contest so people is free to use whatever
they want anyway. :-)

You seems to have lot of free time Jordan... Hmmm :-))
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT     -=- The daemon is FREE! -=-     roberto@FreeBSD.ORG
   FreeBSD keltia 2.1.0-Development #18: Thu Jan 26 22:22:16 MET 1995

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 04:51:11 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 07:50:26 -0500
From: L Jonas Olsson <ljo@amcell2.caisr.cwru.edu>
Message-Id: <199502011250.HAA09062@amcell2.caisr.cwru.edu>
To: dufault@hda.com
CC: dgy@seagull.rtd.com, vernick@cs.sunysb.edu,
        freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-reply-to: <199502011239.HAA13374@hda.com> (message from Peter Dufault on Wed, 1 Feb 1995 07:39:55 -0500 (EST))
Subject: Re: pthreads
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 I think Lars Fredriksen has it running on 2.0.

Jonas

>From: fredriks@mcs.com (Lars Fredriksen)
>Subject: Re: pthreads
>To: dfr@render.com (Doug Rabson)
>Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 15:16:32 -0600 (CST)
>Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, proven@mit.edu
>In-Reply-To: <199412091420.OAA19083@trout.render.com> from "Doug Rabson" at Dec 9, 94 02:20:50 pm
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Doug Rabson writes:
> 
> Is anyone working on pthreads for 2.0 or using pthreads in 1.1.5?  I
> just started looking at getting the 1.1.5 version working under 2.0
> and it appears to be seriously broken in places.
> 
> Is there a more recent version than the one in 1.1.5?  I don't want to
> spend too long fixing it if the work has already been done elsewhere.
> 

Yes, and yes. I do have a newer version up and running. This is based
upon draft 8 (now there are things that have to change to upgrade it to
draft 10). I will see if I cannot get it on to freefall this weekend.

Lars
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Lars Fredriksen		fredriks@mcs.com		(home)
			lars@fredriks.pr.mcs.net	(home-home)
			fredriks@asiago.cs.wisc.edu


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 04:57:01 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 06:56:24 -0600
To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
From: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth)
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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>And from this point it's off we go.  If they run the sup interactively,
>they can also be asked if they want to go build from the sources and
>then we can do some sort of `make update' thing.  That's the other thing
>we still need to resolve, but we can get back to it later! :-)

IMHO, there are two things that MUST be resolved.
1) The MAKE procedure must run without any manual kludges. I am working on that!
   Basically, you have to "bootstrap" your way to a set of tools that can
build a system. Then you can go at it.
2) The second problem is that the system must, at least, compile from any
release.

What I would suggest is a bit more "engineering" in the process.

Perhaps we need a two step commit process. Basically, developers commit to
"wanna-be-current". Periodically take a snapshot of this and test to see if
everything compiles. If not, it gets bounced! Things that pass the sieve go
into "current".

It might also be appropriate to have a differentiation between corrections
to a release and additional functionality. I think that many users are more
interested in patches to correct bugs in what they have rather than the
latest and greatest might work code.

----
Richard Wackerbarth
rkw@dataplex.net



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 05:05:58 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:04:30 -0500 (EST)
From: "Michael C. Newell" <mnewell@lupine.nsi.nasa.gov>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>
cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com>
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all lower case isn't a problem from my perspective; I DO REALLY HATE IT 
THOUGH WHEN PEOPLE SEND MESSAGES IN ALL UPPER CASE.  (shudder)  No mercy 
should be shown to upper-case weenies; most are probably ex-mainframers 
that are trying to find real careers anyway...

I learned to touch-type in high school, so mixing case is really easy for
me... 

Mike

On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 04:14:09 -0800
> From: Jordan K. Hubbard <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>
> To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
> Subject: this is silly - really!
> 
> ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
> when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
> capitalize after punctuation? this used to sort of bother me until finally
> the light dawned yesterday and i understood - it's a lot *faster* to
> type when you ignore case!  gee! revelation! :-)  now it's no coincidence
> that all my very busiest friends all started doing this around the
> same time! :-)
> 
> on the other hand, as you can plainly see, it looks kinda stupid.
> 
> it is certainly much faster to type, and you run into less run-on mistakes
> where you get two letters cap'd and then you have to go back and muck it all
> up for awhile until finally you can go on to the next word.  bah.
> 
> so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
> elegant?  :-)
> 
> 					jordan
> 
> 

Thanks,

Mike

+--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
|Mike Newell                           | The opinions expressed herein are  |
|NASA Science Internet Network Systems | my own, and do not necessarily     |
|Sterling Software, Inc.               | reflect those of the NSI program,  |
|MNewell@nsipo.nasa.gov                | Sterling Software, NASA, or anyone |
|+1-202-434-8954                       | else.                              |
+--------------------------------------+------------------------------------+


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 05:34:47 1995
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, mark@grunt.grondar.za
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !! 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:20:54 +0200
From: Mark Murray <mark@grondar.za>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> OK, I just had a chat with Jordan over a piece of cake (it's true !)

Sigh. This dispells the myth that jkh is a perl script... ;-)

> >>> I belive that sup needs to die for all "src-current" use  <<<

Yeah! SUP's take a couple of hours round here, often for very little...

> We set up a machine, (thud probably) to run a shell script X times per day
> (X in [1..4]) which does a "make cleandist ; make obj ; make all" and if
> that succeeds it produces a CTM delta, which gets put in the public
> area on ftp.freebsd.org automatically and emailed to the ctm-src-cur 
> mailing list at the same time.

Will these be proper diffs, or will SUPPpers (new-style) also have all the
old deleted crud hanging around too?

> Advantages:
> 
> Ftp can be used for transfer, it is much more efficient than sup
> I'm well connected, 6 hops to freefall, and I only use 50% of my
> modems bandwidth with sup.. :-(

I use about 2%...

> What do you think ?

You've got my vote...

--
Mark Murray
46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa
+27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 05:38:06 1995
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Message-Id: <199502011338.IAA20643@warlock.win.net>
Subject: re: POS (was re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:38:46 -0500 (EST)
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> From: Jeffrey Hsu <hsu@freefall.cdrom.com>
> 
>   I am ambitious.  I want to see FreeBSD running at ice stations, ...
>   And I want to see it in small and medium sized businesses doing
>   Real Work(tm).
> 
> Point of sales systems are a big part of SCO Unix sales and one of
> the most common business applications.  These POS packages are

Groan - I did this for several years for Xenix/SCO-UNIX platforms in
my previous job.  Believe me, the level of support that POS sites need
is so incredible.  You guys should drop the idea right now :-).

The design I developed was DOS/PC based registers communicating with a
Unix box over a serial lan.  Central file on host with "cache" on the
PC hard drive.  Modem pool on host for doing credit cards or electronic
ordering.  

It is one thing to technically make it work, which I have done.  Credit
cards, data base, electronic ordering, just-in-time inventory, ect.

It is quite another thing to support it in the field - 24x7, money on
the line, upset managers screaming, ect.

95% of our effort and costs were related to customer site staff mistakes,
customer site improper electrical wiring, bad data supplied by wholesalers,
and a lack of pre-existing financial controls in the store.

It was a mess - and I'm glad to be back into the Internet food chain once
again.  FreeBSD has made my job easier, but its not *THAT* much easier :-) :-)

Good Luck,
mark.h
bugs@win.net

PS: do good xenix 286 image emulation and you will probably be able to run
the 100 or so packages that are already out there :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 05:41:18 1995
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>
cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, mark@grunt.grondar.za
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:39:56 +0200
From: Mark Murray <mark@grondar.za>
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> so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
> elegant?  :-)

particularly with folks i know, idont even use the bacspce key.
if you read 'dougleas hofstadters"metamagical thema"
he make great moment of making nonsense out of garbag /.

wasnt that bad, huh?
M

--
Mark Murray
46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa
+27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 05:51:18 1995
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Date: Wed,  1 Feb 95 15:53:39 IST
From: "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" <ugen@netvision.net.il>
Subject: RE: this is silly - really! 
To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>
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>so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
>elegant?  :-)
>
					jordan
Isn't that a time to form new mailing list:
freebsd-jordan-manners :)?:))))) 


-- 
-=Ugen J.S.Antsilevich=-
NetVision - Israeli Commercial Internet          |  Learning 
E-mail: ugen@NetVision.net.il                    | To Fly. [c]
Phone : +972-4-550330                            |   



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 06:13:05 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 09:12:31 EST
From: combssf@salem.ge.com (Stephen F. Combs [Network Services)
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To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> (jkh@freefall.cdrom.com)
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
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Jordan,
	Whatever makes you happy!  It doesn't bother me either way!

Steve C.

 >  Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 04:14:09 -0800
 >  From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>
 >  Sender: hackers-owner@freebsd.org
 >  Precedence: bulk
 >  
 >  ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
 >  when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
 >  capitalize after punctuation? this used to sort of bother me until finally
 >  the light dawned yesterday and i understood - it's a lot *faster* to
 >  type when you ignore case!  gee! revelation! :-)  now it's no coincidence
 >  that all my very busiest friends all started doing this around the
 >  same time! :-)
 >  
 >  on the other hand, as you can plainly see, it looks kinda stupid.
 >  
 >  it is certainly much faster to type, and you run into less run-on mistakes
 >  where you get two letters cap'd and then you have to go back and muck it all
 >  up for awhile until finally you can go on to the next word.  bah.
 >  
 >  so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
 >  elegant?  :-)
 >  
 >  					jordan
 >  
 >  

===============================================================================
   (My employer is in NO WAY responsible for the opinions expressed herein)
Stephen F. Combs                 Internet:	CombsSF@Salem.GE.COM
GE Industrial Sales & Services	 Voice:		703.387.8828
Network Services		 Home:		CombsSF-Home@Salem.GE.COM
1501 Roanoke Blvd                Home Voice:	703.389.9524
Salem, VA  24153                 (not reliable after 9:30pm, 'cuz 'tis my link)
===============================================================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 06:16:28 1995
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@kryten.atinc.com>
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
cc: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
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	just to state the obvious, do you have an method to prevent 
export of des code and other controller material?

jmb

Jonathan M. Bresler  jmb@kryten.atinc.com	| Analysis & Technology, Inc.  
						| 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy
play go.					| Arlington, VA 22202
ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life	| 703-418-2800 x346


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:19:59 1995
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199502011617.JAA27527@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: Re: pthreads
To: dufault@hda.com (Peter Dufault)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:17:16 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (FreeBSD hackers)
In-Reply-To: <199502011239.HAA13374@hda.com> from "Peter Dufault" at Feb 1, 95 07:39:55 am
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> Don Yuniskis writes:
> > 
> > > Someone mentioned that there is a 'pthreads' library for FreeBSD.  Is
> > > it a lightweight process model? Or something else?  Where can I find
> > > it? I looked in 'ports' but didn't see anything.  Any help would be
> > > appreciated. 
> > 
> > how about /usr/src/lib/libpthread ?   :>
> 
> I don't think it is in 2.0:

Ah... I guess it disappeared between 1.1.5.1R and 2.0R  :-(
Sorry...

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:19:57 1995
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199502011707.KAA28845@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: corrupted files in distribution
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:07:00 -0700 (MST)
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Greetings!
    This applies to 1.1.5.1R but may also appear in 2.+
.../devX100/CBI and .../devX100-12/TR appear to have been
trashed in the release (i.e. their images under src hierarchy
are also trashed.  Could someone please confirm this on 1.1.5.1R
and check it on 2.+ (to ensure it isn't propagated)?
   Thx, --don

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:22:34 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 05:06:10 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502011806.FAA18514@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr, terry@cs.weber.edu
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com
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>> When I used CVS under 1.1.5.1 it was very acceptable. Now, when I
>> do a cvs update on directories like lib/libc, it is slow.

The profile for `cvs -Q update src/lib' on an up to date src/lib is
more interesting than for `cvs -Q bin'.  Now the stat()s dominate
and take too long (3921 usec/call, without even counting idle time,
compared with only 500 usec/call for stat()ing 1000 files in
one directory).

>When talking about ext2fs, it should be noted that it does a whole lot
>of caching of meta-data which is not technically legal, but which it gets
>away with because the hardware is much more reliable than when UFS was
>first put together.  Most of the synchronus write through is disabled.

>This isn't a fair comparison because the reliability is not comparable.

The average reliability of ext2fs is probably much higher.  ufs does
many more disk writes to update metadata (I guess 20 times as many)
so the chance of a failure when something is inconsistent is higher.

Bruce

---
                0.31       98.88   27703/27703       _Xsyscall [2]
[3]     73.6    0.31       98.88   27703         _syscall [3]
                0.03       19.12    4885/4885        _stat [17]
                0.05       17.94    3449/3449        _open [18]
                0.02       14.08    3373/3373        _lstat [21]
                0.03        8.45    2203/2203        _access [27]
                0.01        7.93     523/523         _select [28]
                0.01        6.47     392/5757        _mi_switch [4]
                0.03        5.48    2607/2607        _read [32]
                0.00        4.40     223/223         _unlink [40]
                0.00        3.75     109/109         _rmdir [45]
                0.00        3.61     109/109         _mkdir [47]
                0.02        3.47    1311/1311        _getdirentries [50]
                0.04        1.35    3134/3134        _close [63]
                0.00        1.28     331/331         _chdir [66]
                0.00        0.22      37/37          _execve [115]
                0.02        0.19    2438/2438        _fstat [117]
                0.01        0.20     525/525         _write [119]
                0.00        0.13       7/7           _wait4 [137]
                0.00        0.12      63/63          _mmap [140]
                0.00        0.11       5/5           _vfork [147]
                0.11        0.00   27535/28649       _copyin [144]
                0.00        0.04       2/2           _fork [201]
                0.00        0.03     338/338         _obreak [223]
                0.00        0.03       2/2           _sigsuspend [225]
                0.00        0.01       7/7           _exit [280]
                0.00        0.01      12/12          ___sysctl [284]
                0.01        0.00     877/877         _lseek [304]
                0.01        0.00     876/876         _fcntl [307]
                0.00        0.01      12/12          _munmap [326]
                0.00        0.00     919/1265        _fuword [352]
                0.00        0.00       5/5           _dup2 [366]
                0.00        0.00      29/29          _sigaction [375]
                0.00        0.00     392/5765        _setrunqueue [239]
                0.00        0.00     117/117         _getpid [383]
                0.00        0.00      11/11          _setitimer [402]
                0.00        0.00      16/16          _mprotect [414]
                0.00        0.00       7/7           _gettimeofday [431]
                0.00        0.00       7/7           _postsig [438]
                0.00        0.00       7/7           _sigreturn [453]
                0.00        0.00      15/15          _getuid [480]
                0.00        0.00       1/1           _ioctl [483]
                0.00        0.00      13/13          _geteuid [496]
                0.00        0.00       7/7           _getgid [500]
                0.00        0.00       7/7           _getegid [513]
                0.00        0.00       4/4           _seteuid [517]
                0.00        0.00       4/4           _sigprocmask [520]
                0.00        0.00       5/51004       _splz <cycle 3> [299]
                0.00        0.00       7/14          _issignal [499]
                0.00        0.00       2/2           _getpgrp [546]

...
-----------------------------------------------

                0.03       19.12    4885/4885        _syscall [3]
[17]    14.2    0.03       19.12    4885         _stat [17]
                0.04       17.66    4885/14719       _namei [8]
                0.01        1.06    4544/24339       _vput [31]
                0.22        0.00    4544/15108       _copyout [79]
                0.03        0.11    4544/10849       _vn_stat [95]

...

granularity: each sample hit covers 4 byte(s) for 0.00% of 142.08 seconds

  %   cumulative   self              self     total           
 time   seconds   seconds    calls  us/call  us/call  name    
 66.7     94.831   94.831     5068    18712    18712  _idle [5]
 11.6    111.283   16.453                             _cputime [20]
  5.1    118.566    7.282                             _mcount (1506)
  4.1    124.333    5.767                             _user [29]
  2.8    128.296    3.963                             _mexitcount [41]
  0.5    129.055    0.758    56757       13      569  _ufs_lookup [11]
  0.5    129.775    0.720    15108       48       48  _copyout [79]
  0.3    130.158    0.383    14744       26     3500  _lookup [9]
  0.3    130.533    0.375    56757        7        9  _cache_lookup [87]
  0.2    130.850    0.317    34278        9        9  _malloc [98]
  0.2    131.162    0.311   135438        2        2  _ufs_unlock [100]
  0.2    131.469    0.308    27703       11     3580  _syscall [3]
  0.2    131.752    0.282    29302       10       17  _brelse [88]
  0.2    132.030    0.279    82837        3        4  _ufs_lock [97]
  0.2    132.281    0.251    34255        7        7  _free [109]
  0.2    132.525    0.244    83037        3        3  _bcmp [110]
  0.2    132.762    0.237    21811       11       11  ___qdivrem [111]
  0.2    132.994    0.232    93983        2        3  _vrele <cycle 2> [112]
  0.2    133.221    0.227    28630        8       23  _hardclock [81]
  0.2    133.439    0.217    43731        5        5  _timeout <cycle 3> [116]
...  
  0.0    139.974    0.031     4885        6     3921  _stat [17]

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:22:42 1995
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From: Remy.Card@masi.ibp.fr (Remy CARD)
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Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:19:51 +0100 (MET)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 04:14:09 am
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> 
> ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
> when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
> capitalize after punctuation? this used to sort of bother me until finally
> the light dawned yesterday and i understood - it's a lot *faster* to
> type when you ignore case!  gee! revelation! :-)  now it's no coincidence
> that all my very busiest friends all started doing this around the
> same time! :-)

	anddidyoutrytotypeamailwithoutusingspace.hittingspacebetweenwords
makesyouwastetime.

> 
> 					jordan
> 
> 

		Remy

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:22:46 1995
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From: Jeff Aitken <jaitken@cslab.cs.vt.edu>
Message-Id: <9502011703.AA27154@cslab.cs.vt.edu>
Subject: New Apple+Intel machine
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:03:27 -0500 (EST)
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I'm still evaluating possible machines for the recommended student
configuration in a year, and the latest test macchine I've received is
an Apple with the PowerPC chip (I forget which model number it is) which
also has an Intel 486 (or pentium, one or the other) on a daughtercard.
This beast is supposedly able to run MAC and IBM stuff simultaneously,
so what I'm wondering is what the chances are of getting one of the
*BSD's on it.  Has anyone used one of these things?  I know NetBSD works
on the MAC, but I think only the 68k variety.  Is this true? 

-- 
Jeff Aitken
jaitken@vt.edu


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:22:51 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 03:25:46 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502011625.DAA17258@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, roberto@blaise.ibp.fr
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
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>Maybe we should optimize stat(2) before... Ask Remy about the tests
>he made between ext2fs and our ffs. Our stat(2) is way slower than the
>1.1.5.1 one.

Actual testing shows that stat() is slightly faster under
FreeBSD-current than under linux-1.1.36 for files in a medium sized
directory, and 5 times faster under FreeBSD for files in a large
directory!  FreeBSD is much slower at creating the files to be stat()ed
because it updates metadata synchronously.

Profiling cvs doesn't show much in-core file system activity.  I think
it's just spending too much time waiting to write metadata and temporary
files to the disk.  This is nothing new, so it's not clear why 1.1.5
was faster.

Bruce
---
All tests were run on a 486DX/33 IDE system.  Output was generated using
this shell script:
----
for i in 1 10 100 1000
do
	./z $i
done
for i in 1 10 100 1000
do
	./z $i
done
time rm -rf stat-test
---
on this test program:
---
z.c
---
#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <sys/time.h>
#include <sys/times.h>
#include <errno.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <stdarg.h>
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <time.h>
#include <unistd.h>

static void error(char *fmt, ...)
{
    va_list ap;
    int save_errno;

    save_errno = errno;
    va_start(ap, fmt);
    vfprintf(stderr, fmt, ap);
    va_end(ap);
    fprintf(stderr, ": %s\n", strerror(save_errno));
    exit(1);
}

#ifdef GETTIMEOFDAY_MISSING
struct timezone;
static int gettimeofday(struct timeval *tv, struct timezone *tz)
{
    double c;
    struct tms tms;

    times(&tms);
    c = (double) (tms.tms_utime + tms.tms_stime) / CLOCKS_PER_SEC;
    tv->tv_sec = c;
    tv->tv_usec = (c - tv->tv_sec) * 1e6;
    return 0;
}
#endif

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
    int fd;
    double dt;
    struct timeval finish;
    int i;
    int n;
    char nb[64];
    struct stat sb;
    struct timeval start;

    n = atoi(argv[1]);
    mkdir("stat-test", 0755);
    if (gettimeofday(&start, (struct timezone *) NULL) != 0)
	error("gettimeofday for start of creat tests failed");
    for (i = 0; i < n; ++i)
    {
	sprintf(nb, "stat-test/%d", i);
	fd = creat(nb, 0666);
	if (fd < 0)
	    error("creat of %s failed (step %d)", nb, i);
	if (close(fd) != 0)
	    error("close of %s failed (step %d)", nb, i);
    }
    if (gettimeofday(&finish, (struct timezone *) NULL) != 0)
	error("gettimeofday for finish of creat tests failed");
    dt = (finish.tv_sec - start.tv_sec)
	 + (finish.tv_usec - start.tv_usec) / 1e6;
    printf("time for %d creats = %.6f (%.6f each)\n", n, dt, dt / n);
    if (gettimeofday(&start, (struct timezone *) NULL) != 0)
	error("gettimeofday for start of stat tests failed");
    for (i = 0; i < n; ++i)
    {
	sprintf(nb, "stat-test/%d", i);
	if (stat(nb, &sb) != 0)
	    error("stat of %s failed (step %d)", nb, i);
    }
    if (gettimeofday(&finish, (struct timezone *) NULL) != 0)
	error("gettimeofday for finish of stat tests failed");
    dt = (finish.tv_sec - start.tv_sec)
	 + (finish.tv_usec - start.tv_usec) / 1e6;
    printf("time for %d stats = %.6f (%.6f each)\n", n, dt, dt / n);
    return 0;
}
---

# minix file system under linux-1.1.36

Filesystem         1024-blocks  Used Available Capacity Mounted on
/dev/hda3              49525   43988     5537     89%   /minix1
Filesystem            Inodes   IUsed   IFree  %IUsed Mounted on
/dev/hda3              12288    6943    5345    57%  /minix1

time for 1 creats = 0.002140 (0.002140 each)
time for 1 stats = 0.000344 (0.000344 each)
time for 10 creats = 0.007555 (0.000755 each)
time for 10 stats = 0.004280 (0.000428 each)
time for 100 creats = 0.099810 (0.000998 each)
time for 100 stats = 0.062747 (0.000627 each)
time for 1000 creats = 4.484905 (0.004485 each)
time for 1000 stats = 2.569069 (0.002569 each)
time for 1 creats = 0.002169 (0.002169 each)
time for 1 stats = 0.000347 (0.000347 each)
time for 10 creats = 0.007130 (0.000713 each)
time for 10 stats = 0.003092 (0.000309 each)
time for 100 creats = 0.076044 (0.000760 each)
time for 100 stats = 0.064099 (0.000641 each)
time for 1000 creats = 3.087616 (0.003088 each)
time for 1000 stats = 2.619802 (0.002620 each)
0.03user 3.79system 0:03.82elapsed 100%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (0major+0minor)pagefaults 0swaps
---

# ext2 file system under linux-1.1.36

Filesystem         1024-blocks  Used Available Capacity Mounted on
/dev/hda4             120640   71274    43334     62%   /usr
Filesystem            Inodes   IUsed   IFree  %IUsed Mounted on
/dev/hda4              30240    5148   25092    17%  /usr

time for 1 creats = 0.002205 (0.002205 each)
time for 1 stats = 0.000415 (0.000415 each)
time for 10 creats = 0.010211 (0.001021 each)
time for 10 stats = 0.005585 (0.000558 each)
time for 100 creats = 0.157388 (0.001574 each)
time for 100 stats = 0.082506 (0.000825 each)
time for 1000 creats = 7.780158 (0.007780 each)
time for 1000 stats = 3.712792 (0.003713 each)
time for 1 creats = 0.002524 (0.002524 each)
time for 1 stats = 0.000581 (0.000581 each)
time for 10 creats = 0.010363 (0.001036 each)
time for 10 stats = 0.005613 (0.000561 each)
time for 100 creats = 0.116314 (0.001163 each)
time for 100 stats = 0.099282 (0.000993 each)
time for 1000 creats = 3.947709 (0.003948 each)
time for 1000 stats = 3.751310 (0.003751 each)
0.06user 1.45system 0:01.53elapsed 98%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (0major+0minor)pagefaults 0swaps
---

# (same) minix file system under minix-1.6.25.mine

Device     Inodes  Inodes  Inodes     Blocks  Blocks  Blocks  Mounted     V Pr
           total   used    free       total   used    free      on
           ------  ------  ------     ------  ------  ------  -------     - --
/dev/hda3   12288    6948    5340      49920   44437    5483  /           1 rw

time for 1 creats = 0.000000 (0.000000 each)
time for 1 stats = 0.000000 (0.000000 each)
time for 10 creats = 0.000000 (0.000000 each)
time for 10 stats = 0.016667 (0.001667 each)
time for 100 creats = 0.133334 (0.001333 each)
time for 100 stats = 0.033333 (0.000333 each)
time for 1000 creats = 5.433333 (0.005433 each)
time for 1000 stats = 0.516667 (0.000517 each)
time for 1 creats = 0.000000 (0.000000 each)
time for 1 stats = 0.000000 (0.000000 each)
time for 10 creats = 0.000000 (0.000000 each)
time for 10 stats = 0.016667 (0.001667 each)
time for 100 creats = 0.066667 (0.000667 each)
time for 100 stats = 0.050000 (0.000500 each)
time for 1000 creats = 0.783333 (0.000783 each)
time for 1000 stats = 0.516667 (0.000517 each)
       2.00 real       0.11 user       1.98 sys
---

# ufs file system under FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development #597: Tue Jan 31 19:40:24 EST 1995

time for 1 creats = 0.050128 (0.050128 each)
time for 1 stats = 0.000539 (0.000539 each)
time for 10 creats = 0.289739 (0.028974 each)
time for 10 stats = 0.004222 (0.000422 each)
time for 100 creats = 3.376021 (0.033760 each)
time for 100 stats = 0.047203 (0.000472 each)
time for 1000 creats = 42.747052 (0.042747 each)
time for 1000 stats = 0.714697 (0.000715 each)
time for 1 creats = 0.001992 (0.001992 each)
time for 1 stats = 0.000410 (0.000410 each)
time for 10 creats = 0.010583 (0.001058 each)
time for 10 stats = 0.003012 (0.000301 each)
time for 100 creats = 0.122799 (0.001228 each)
time for 100 stats = 0.029209 (0.000292 each)
time for 1000 creats = 3.959052 (0.003959 each)
time for 1000 stats = 0.738038 (0.000738 each)
       16.84 real         0.05 user         1.35 sys
---
This profile output is for `cvs -Q bin' of a new `bin' on a 486DX2/66 SCSI
system.  I've made some local improvements to profiling.  The times for
_cputime, _mcount and _mexitcount are profiling overheads.  When the
checkout is run with profiling off, it is faster by almost exactly the
profiling overhead, so the overhead is apparently not overlapped with
waiting for the disk.
---
granularity: each sample hit covers 4 byte(s) for 0.00% of 164.53 seconds

  %   cumulative   self              self     total           
 time   seconds   seconds    calls  us/call  us/call  name    
 35.9     59.016   59.016     3704    15933    15933  _idle [5]
 21.6     94.557   35.541                             _cputime [7]
  9.0    109.408   14.851                             _mcount (1470)
  8.2    122.857   13.449                             _user [13]
  5.2    131.447    8.590                             _mexitcount [24]
  2.0    134.810    3.363    10108      333      333  _pmap_copy_page [44]
  1.1    136.660    1.850    68026       27       30  _pmap_page_protect [60]
  1.1    138.399    1.738    42968       40       40  _bzero [65]
  0.8    139.674    1.275   245493        5        5  _vm_page_lookup [75]
  0.6    140.587    0.914    59681       15      250  _vm_fault [14]
  0.5    141.357    0.769    60541       13       13  _pmap_enter [94]
  0.4    141.990    0.633   176799        4        4  _vm_page_remove [105]
  0.4    142.598    0.609   179817        3        3  _vm_page_unqueue [109]
  0.3    143.108    0.510    35449       14      165  _ufs_lookup [33]
  0.3    143.617    0.509   176832        3        3  _vm_page_insert [123]
  0.3    144.121    0.504    48614       10     1328  _syscall [3]
  0.3    144.598    0.477    61202        8      364  _trap [10]
  0.3    145.060    0.461    65641        7       21  _vm_map_lookup [71]
  0.3    145.504    0.445    33969       13       26  _pmap_remove [85]
  0.3    145.939    0.435    44544       10       10  _malloc [135]
  0.3    146.374    0.435   115642        4        4  _wakeup <cycle 1> [129]
---

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:23:37 1995
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From: Remy.Card@masi.ibp.fr (Remy CARD)
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Message-Id: <199502011817.TAA11446@aphrodite.ibp.fr>
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:17:26 +0100 (MET)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 04:14:09 am
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> 
> ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
> when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
> capitalize after punctuation? this used to sort of bother me until finally
> the light dawned yesterday and i understood - it's a lot *faster* to
> type when you ignore case!  gee! revelation! :-)  now it's no coincidence
> that all my very busiest friends all started doing this around the
> same time! :-)

	Pour moi, ca va encore plus vite quand j'ecris en Francais parce que
je n'ai pas besoin de reflechir a la traduction en anglais :-)

> 
> 					jordan
> 

		Remy

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:24:39 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502011824.KAA20962@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:24:35 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 04:14:09 am
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> so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
> elegant?  :-)

DON'T YOU HAVE SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE TO DO ??  :-)

anyway you want it...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:30:05 1995
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From: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly)
Message-Id: <9502011442.AA23119@junco.fsl.noaa.gov>
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> (jkh@freefall.cdrom.com)
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wow1  you can save even more time by not shifting for punctuation 7
other symbols 9it looks kind of odd, though0.

--k

ps;  who said going off topic once in awhile was bad/


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:30:56 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502011830.KAA21040@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:30:00 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, mark@grunt.grondar.za
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> > OK, I just had a chat with Jordan over a piece of cake (it's true !)
> 
> Sigh. This dispells the myth that jkh is a perl script... ;-)

No, they say "learning Perl is a piece of cake"...

> > >>> I belive that sup needs to die for all "src-current" use  <<<
> 
> Yeah! SUP's take a couple of hours round here, often for very little...
> 
> > We set up a machine, (thud probably) to run a shell script X times per day
> > (X in [1..4]) which does a "make cleandist ; make obj ; make all" and if
> > that succeeds it produces a CTM delta, which gets put in the public
> > area on ftp.freebsd.org automatically and emailed to the ctm-src-cur 
> > mailing list at the same time.
> 
> Will these be proper diffs, or will SUPPpers (new-style) also have all the
> old deleted crud hanging around too?
The present CTM-deltas are not the kind of "patches" you are used to.
The consist of a MD5 sum before, a ed-like script (diff -n) and a MD5
after, and it will bail out if your file hasn't got the right MD5 checksum.

It is a distribution tool, not a patch tool.

You can try it out now, check 
	ftp://ref.tfs.com/pub/CTM/README

> You've got my vote...

Thanks.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:36:04 1995
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Subject: pthreads the next release.
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 12:56:20 EST
From: Christopher Provenzano  <proven@MIT.EDU>
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The current release 1_51 will soon be out of date. I have a whole bunch
of patches that I'm merging into the next release, 1_60, and as soon
as I'm done I'll put it in my freefall account and start merging it into
the source tree, which should be sometime this weekend. 

CAP

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:36:14 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:42:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@kryten.atinc.com>
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>
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On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more 
> elegant?  :-) 
> 
> jordan

	fast ond uglyy   cap are SHOUTING only

ps. 	whats a moin, moin?

Jonathan M. Bresler  jmb@kryten.atinc.com	| Analysis & Technology, Inc.  
						| 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy
play go.					| Arlington, VA 22202
ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life	| 703-418-2800 x346


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:40:26 1995
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-reply-to: <21066.791626946@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@FreeBSD.org)
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
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>   Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 00:22:26 -0800
>   From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
>
>   Is it currently possible to set someone up with a special CTM alias in
>   their /etc/aliases that will allow freefall to send them patches which get
>   filed and applied automatically?  
>   THAT would be very cool.  

That WOULD be cool.  As would a dial-up interface to same for those
who are net.less.  I think it is very important that security aspects
should be addressed before implementation rather than after (someone
gets bitten).  Just one incident could compromise FreeBSD's
reputation. 

Speaking of dialup, how about an option for install that would fetch
the bindist through dial-up.  Someone (Walnut Creek?) could probably
even make money on this if it were a (not too expensive) 900
number. . .  Or an ISP could offer this as an inducement to get folks
to sign up.

The understandable subconcious assumption that everybody worthwhile is
on the net strongly influences all development and hinders acceptance
of FreeBSD by the majority of users who have only dialup
communications capability.  These far outnumber CD-ROM owners.

Glen Foster <gfoster@osmre.gov>


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:41:32 1995
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Message-Id: <199502011519.QAA16210@lirmm.lirmm.fr>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !! 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:55:46 PST."
             <199502010755.XAA19507@ref.tfs.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 16:19:40 +0100
From: "Philippe Charnier" <charnier@lirmm.fr>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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Salut,

In the message SUP must die, CTM for president !!,
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com> wrote :

>Advantages:
>
>On top of that: CTM transfers only the changes, not the entire file
>each time a line is touched.
>

5 yards

>People can ftp at the work/university and carry floppies home if they 
>wish.
>

10 yards

>People can stay current via email too.
>
>The mirrors will not even have to think about what's in the files.  They
>can just be ftp-mirrors as usual.
>
>CTM uses md5, so it will detect if people have corrupt files.
>

5 yards

>People get a version handle they can use for reporting:  the CTM-delta number.
>We linearizes the load on freefall.  More "customers" doesn't mean more load.

5 yards

>Is CTM ready to do this ?
>-------------------------
>
>Almost, I think.
>

Touch Down!!!!!

>Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>

Quaterback?


--------                                                        --------
Philippe Charnier                                      charnier@lirmm.fr
                               

         LIRMM, 161 rue Ada, 34392 Montpellier cedex 5 -- France
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:43:39 1995
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To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Newsgroups: reptiles.freebsd.hackers
Path: jim
From: jim@reptiles.org (Jim Mercer)
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
Message-ID: <D3Bqv9.MKw@reptiles.org>
Organization: Reptilian Research, Toronto, Canada
References: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com>
Distribution: reptiles
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:59:30 GMT
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In article <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com>,
Jordan K. Hubbard <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com> wrote:
>ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
>when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
>capitalize after punctuation?

as i heard Neil Young say in an interview, "It's my style, man."

i generally type in lower case, only capitializing when the mood
strikes me, or when yelling.

this gets me into trouble sometimes, as this style of writing follows me
on paper, and my boss has actually sent my memo's back with little circles
around the 'i' (as in "i propose ...").

i explained to her that my style was somewhat representative of my personality.

all lowercase is relaxed and informal.  to me it indicates a certain level of
slack, which i try to maintain.

>on the other hand, as you can plainly see, it looks kinda stupid.

i resemble that remark.

-- 
[ Jim Mercer                 jim@reptiles.org              +1 416 506-0654 ]
[          Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood          ]
[   Never, ever forget to replace the toiletseat after use!!! A wet        ]
[   chinchilla is a very funny and pathetic sight.   -- alt.chinchilla     ]

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:44:19 1995
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In-Reply-To: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>  of Wed, 01 Feb 95 00:18:24 PST.
Reply-To: gj@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !! 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 16:49:48 GMT
From: "gj%pcs.dec.com@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com" <garyj@rks32.pcs.dec.com>
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Jordan wrote:

[elipsis]

> That is to say, if you and your brave (and sometimes merry) band of
> CTM volunteers succeed in making it the all-singing, all-dancing,
> all-high-fiber equivalent of sliced bread and hot sex with pert-nosed
> California girls who, well,....

does antwerp read this list ?

Gary J.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:46:31 1995
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From: jfieber@cs.smith.edu (John Fieber)
Message-Id: <199502011448.JAA17173@grendel.csc.smith.edu>
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:48:48 -0500 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 04:14:09 am
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Jordan K. Hubbard writes:
> ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
> when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
> capitalize after punctuation? this used to sort of bother me until finally


heckwhyevenbotherwithpunctuationifyouaddupallthetimeyouspendtyping
thoseblastedlittleperiodsquestionmarkscommasandworstofallspacesyou
begintorealizehowmuchofyourlifehasbeensquanderedonsuchtrivialdetail
whoneedspunctuationanywayitsforwimpsifyoucantreadwithoutusingsuch
disgustingcrutchewhodoyouthinkyouareanyway

-john

=== jfieber@cs.smith.edu ================================================
=================================== Come up and be a kite!  --K. Bush ===

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:47:05 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 10:15:06 EST
From: dayton@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu (Dayton Clark)
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To: dgy@seagull.rtd.com
Cc: vernick@cs.sunysb.edu, freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502010024.RAA00477@seagull.rtd.com> (message from Don Yuniskis on Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:24:24 +73700 (MST))
Subject: Re: pthreads
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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<.> From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@seagull.rtd.com>
<.> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:24:24 +73700 (MST)
<.> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (FreeBSD hackers)
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<.> 
<.> > Someone mentioned that there is a 'pthreads' library for FreeBSD.  Is
<.> > it a lightweight process model? Or something else?  Where can I find
<.> > it? I looked in 'ports' but didn't see anything.  Any help would be
<.> > appreciated. 
<.> 
<.> how about /usr/src/lib/libpthread ?   :>
<.> 

Is it in the 2.0 source tree yet?  I looked yesterday, I believe, and
couldn't find it.  I have gotten the 1.1.5 version to to compile under
2.0R but have not tested it yet (I haven't even linked it).

To answer the original question, it is the lightweight process model.
I could send you what I've got, but there are no guarantees.

dayton

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:47:17 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502011812.KAA20870@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:12:51 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <21066.791626946@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 00:22:26 am
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> P.S.
> 
> Is it currently possible to set someone up with a special CTM alias in
> their /etc/aliases that will allow freefall to send them patches which get
> filed and applied automatically?  That way, to register for CTM updates

> THAT would be very cool.  Totally automated and unattended.  We update people
> by sending email to a special address on their machine.  I like it.
yes, this was the design goal.

> We might need to go to PGP authentication at some point so that only WE
> can generate official patches, but that's down the road.
Yes, good idea.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:47:24 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502011807.KAA20843@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:07:34 -0800 (PST)
Cc: root@io.cts.com, jkh@FreeBSD.org, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9872.791626070@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 00:07:50 am
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> 
> > A friend of mine and I have a lot of experience working with different
> > flavors of Unix.  We also happen to be a significant players at CTSNET
> > (a major Internet access provider in San Diego).  We have been amazed
> > at how poorly documented routine procedures for FreeBSD happen to be.
> 
> Thank you for articulating so well my exact feelings!
> 
And mine too.  This is why I signed up as release eng.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 10:53:33 1995
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In-Reply-To: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>  of Wed, 01 Feb 95 04:14:09 PST.
Reply-To: gj@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 17:05:18 GMT
From: "gj%pcs.dec.com@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com" <garyj@rks32.pcs.dec.com>
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> ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
> when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
> capitalize after punctuation?
[elipsis]
> so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
> elegant?  :-)
>
>					jordan

ich persoenlich siehe damit kein problem, es geht sogar auf deutsch :)

In English there's even less problem! Considering the volume of mail
you get, use any method you can to speed thibgs up.

Gary J.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:03:04 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502011704.AA06899@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 10:04:05 MST
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 04:14:09 am
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> on the other hand, as you can plainly see, it looks kinda stupid.

  0n th3 0th3r hand, as U cn plnly C, it 100ks kinda st00pid.

> so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
> elegant?  :-)

It could be worse.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:03:14 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502011615.AA06793@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
To: phk@ref.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 9:15:14 MST
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502010755.XAA19507@ref.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jan 31, 95 11:55:46 pm
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> We set up a machine, (thud probably) to run a shell script X times per day
> (X in [1..4]) which does a "make cleandist ; make obj ; make all" and if
> that succeeds it produces a CTM delta, which gets put in the public
> area on ftp.freebsd.org automatically and emailed to the ctm-src-cur 
> mailing list at the same time.

I suggested something similar to this, but with a slightly more elaborate
protocol to keep crap from getting into the CVS treee in the first place
and to allow multiple reader/writer use over NFS.

Maybe you can add automatic mailing to the committer from the CVS log
of the last writer on the failed file?

This would go 2/3's of the way to what I suggested without requiring
the typing of a command before and after commit sequences.

Of course, the "several times a day" is clearly a reference to the
fact that there is not a reader lock, so you can't be guaranteed a
consistent state when you checkout for the build.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:03:07 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502011708.AA06926@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 10:08:30 MST
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <v02110100ab552953be65@[199.183.109.242]> from "Richard Wackerbarth" at Feb 1, 95 06:56:24 am
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> Perhaps we need a two step commit process. Basically, developers commit to
> "wanna-be-current". Periodically take a snapshot of this and test to see if
> everything compiles. If not, it gets bounced! Things that pass the sieve go
> into "current".

Topologically equivalent to:

lock w
commit
resolve conflicts
check out
build
unlock

Except the second approach doesn't require as much local disk.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:03:18 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502011653.AA06873@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: NFS V3 Alpha release (fwd)
To: roberto@hsc.fr.net
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 9:53:26 MST
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011141.MAA17954@sidhe.hsc-sec.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Feb 1, 95 12:41:59 pm
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> Just saw that on UseNet...

[ ... ]

> For any daring soul who is interested, there is an Alpha test release of
> NFS code that includes support for NFS Version 3 and assorted other new
> features up anonymous ftpable from snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca [131.104.48.1]
> in /pub/nfs.
> 
> This code has only been tested in FreeBSD2.0R, but should be runable in
> other 4.4BSD-Lite based operating systems withou too much effort.

YES!  YES!

EAT THIS:

USL:	"We now have NFS V3 in beta..."
PRESS:	"Who did the developement?  Did you buy it from Sun?"
...


If this was truly a BSD based project, this is worth a PRESS RELEASE!


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:03:24 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502011642.AA06840@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: root@io.cts.com (Morgan Davis)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 9:42:46 MST
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502010705.XAA01059@io.cts.com> from "Morgan Davis" at Jan 31, 95 11:05:57 pm
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> In lieu of adminstrator's manuals that basically give an overview of
> what makes FreeBSD work, there should be some kind of roadmap that
> spells things out clearly.  Here's how you get the sources so you can
> at least recompile your kernel.  Here's how you set up sup so you can
> get the bug fixes to those sources you just picked up.  Here's how you
> reconfig your kernel to turn your machine into a network router.
> Here's how you easily get PPP working.  Here's how you...  The current
> FreeBSD.FAQ is horrible and filled with incorrect information.  This
> is not a roadmap.  It's a hack.

Would an all singing, all dancing administration tool, like SVR4 sysadm
or AIX's be a sufficient answer to this problem?

What it if was only available as a GUI tool?

> After I installed 2.0R in November just after it was released, I
> exited from the nice installer interface wondering, OK, now how do I
> get back to that?  The installer ought to be EASILY reentrant -- I had
> no idea where it ran or how to get back to it once it quit.  And it
> should also assume that the user may want to come back to it to do
> other things and really make a lot of noise about proceding with
> things like fdisk and disklabelling, post-install.

The installer is a special purpose program -- that is, its scope is
extremely limited.  It does what it does extremely well.  You might
liken it to a car that runs real well in one lane of a 20 lane
freeway.  Reentering it is like trying to signal a lane change.
Unless you already know and obey the rules of the road, you are just
as likely to lane change the wrong direction, and then you are out in
the weeds.  Going 60 MPH toward a canal.


There are a lot of size and other justifications for making the installer
seperate from the standard tool set.  I think the problem is that there
isn't a standard tool set.  I also think that a standard tool set is a
bigger job than it sounds.

Let me digress for a minute: how does something like Motif get written?
Well, you go to add a user.  But there isn't an add user utility.  So,
being a programmer, you say "Hmmm... I might one day add another user",
and go off and write 3000 lines of code to do what you could do in 5
minutes.  Then you look at this code and say "This is crud.  No one
will be able to use this without a front end".  So you hack a front
end on to it using curses.  In the process you discover that curses
sucks.  You say "Hmmm... really, I need to be able to replace the front
end with something that doesn't suck", so you hack the program in two.
But the front end still sucks.  So you say "I might as well write a
front end that doesn't suck".  Another 8000 lines of code go by.  You
say "you know, the industry standard right now is Motif".  Another 2600 
lines of code.  "You know, the front end ought to be able to front end
for any program".  That's a toughie; 15000 more lines of code.  Now,
what about those people who don't have Motif?  It's a proprietary
standard, which is an idea that rankles you morally anyway.  Standards
should not have compulsory licensing built in to achieve compliance.
"Hmmm...".

The problem with self-directed coding projects is that they never get
done until a long, long time has passed.  This is both good and bad.

Maybe what's needed is a tool writing pragmatist, willing to start
pulling administration sources from the comp.sources archives and
make them work.  In a volunteer project, that person may be difficult
to find.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:11:11 1995
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From: Gary Clark II <gclarkii@phoenix.net>
Message-Id: <199502011753.LAA13383@ phoenix.net>
Subject: Re: POS (was Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
To: hsu@freefall.cdrom.com (Jeffrey Hsu)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:53:10 -0500 (CST)
Cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502010931.BAA27914@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jeffrey Hsu" at Feb 1, 95 01:31:15 am
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> 
>   I am ambitious.  I want to see FreeBSD running at ice stations, ...
>   And I want to see it in small and medium sized businesses doing
>   Real Work(tm).
> 
> Point of sales systems are a big part of SCO Unix sales and one of
> the most common business applications.  These POS packages are
> usually custom-built vertical applications with the operating system
> bundled in.  Does anyone want to put one together for FreeBSD?  I
> figure the first thing we need is a barcode reader.  We could use
> tk or tkperl for the front-end and use sql to pass data to some
> database, running on some other machine.  Eventually, we'll want
> to have that running on FreeBSD too.  (Sybase or Oracle employees
> take note:  lobby your local VP.  Better yet, do the port, then
> lobby your VP.)  I figure we already have the networking requirements
> covered.  There are other architectures, usually involving terminals,
> but we've got to start somewhere.
> 
> 							Jeffrey
> 

Hi,

I'm working on one of these along with everything else.  My background is
in POS supermarket scanning and I've worked on systems like ``Real World''
so I've got a little knowledge about the subject.

Here are some of the points to watch out for:

1. What market are you going for?
   One of the things I hate with a passion is those generic POS systems
   that some companies try to foist off one everyone, and then charge an
   arm and a leg to make it work for your business!!!

2. If you can, stay away from X (Unless your trying to get BIG customers..)
   The reason I say this, is that I've found people who have no problems 
   paying 2,000 for a UPS system, bitch about having to pay $100.00 for
   a monitor because ``We have all of these old ones left over from our
   AT&T 6300s''.  My present system is using CursePerl with DB extensions.

3. Every type of shop is different.  Some of the lines I've seen that are
   wide open are:
      Gift Baskets (getting larger by the year)
      GOOD video store software
      Help desk software
      Field service software

4. Stay away from supermarkets!!!!!  Unless you have a direct connection
   to one of the wholesalers or you know the owner of a BIG chain (20+ stores)
   you'll never even get near the door.

5. Make sure you can use custom keyboards and scanners.  Keyboard wedge
   wands are nice, but anything more than a couple of items, it becomes
   a pain and they want in-hole Spec-F's or something.

Sorry for deluge....


Gary


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:12:09 1995
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From: Peter da Silva <peter@bonkers.taronga.com>
Message-Id: <199502011636.KAA13241@bonkers.taronga.com>
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:36:21 -0600 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 04:14:09 am
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> ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
> when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
> capitalize after punctuation?

I think it's sorta cute. I picture this hyperactive Disney-esque toon
ferret with this insane hacker grin on his face typing away with two
fingers a-la archy and mehitabel while half the cast of Roger Rabbit
wait their turns to ask him questions bearing FreeBSD CDROMs in their
twitching paws.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:21:55 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 14:21:16 EST
From: dayton@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu (Dayton Clark)
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In-Reply-To: <199502010302.RAA05939@pegasus.com> (richard@pegasus.com)
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<.> Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:02:06 -1000
<.> From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
<.> Precedence: bulk
<.> 
<.> Newsgroups: mail.freebsd.hackers
<.> Path: richard
<.> From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
<.> Subject: archive site for 1.1.5.1 stuff?
<.> Organization: Pegasus Information Systems
<.> Message-ID: <D3AwFz.4KC@pegasus.com>
<.> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 03:02:23 GMT
<.> 
<.> Is there an archive site somewhere for 1.1.5.1 stuff somewhere?  Stuff
<.> like packages, ports, etc. ... ?
<.> 
<.> 
<.> 
<.> -- 
<.> Richard Foulk		richard@pegasus.com
<.> 

Try gatekeeper.dec.com

dayton

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:40:09 1995
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From: Morgan Davis <root@io.cts.com>
Message-Id: <199502011911.LAA03109@io.cts.com>
Subject: Re: POS (was Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
To: hsu@freefall.cdrom.com (Jeffrey Hsu)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:11:41 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
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Jeffrey Hsu writes:
> 
> Point of sales systems are a big part of SCO Unix sales and one of
> the most common business applications.  These POS packages are
> usually custom-built vertical applications with the operating system
> bundled in.

That was one criteria why we chose SCO Unix -- because we could run
FoxBASE+ on it.  Does anyone know if FoxBASE+ is portable to FreeBSD?
I think I had read on one of the bsd newsgroups that someone was
trying to do this, but never posted a solution.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 11:44:22 1995
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To: gj@FreeBSD.org
cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 21:43:22 +0200
From: Mark Murray <mark@grondar.za>
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> ich persoenlich siehe damit kein problem, es geht sogar auf deutsch :)
> 
> In English there's even less problem! Considering the volume of mail
> you get, use any method you can to speed thibgs up.

Sukuthetha imfungu mfungu, buyelani emkomeni. Niyabona ke, uyakwazi
ukuthetha imfungu mfungu nesiXhoseni!


Hehehe...

--
Mark Murray
46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa
+27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 12:00:35 1995
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To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
cc: phk@ref.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp), hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !! 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 21:58:14 +0200
From: Mark Murray <mark@grondar.za>
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> > We set up a machine, (thud probably) to run a shell script X times per day
> > (X in [1..4]) which does a "make cleandist ; make obj ; make all" and if
> > that succeeds it produces a CTM delta, which gets put in the public
> > area on ftp.freebsd.org automatically and emailed to the ctm-src-cur 
> > mailing list at the same time.

Just one question: what happens when (not if, when) someone misses an
update? (trashed message/mailbox, or they go on holiday and the service
provider can't handle the mail volume). How does the poor sod get back
into step then? A history of these deltas should be kept somewhere, at
least for FTP, and possibly for mail retrieval. Some sort of sequencing
should also be involved to keep the series accurate. A source tree full of
.rej's is a sorry thing.

Please don't interpret this as an attempt to kill the idea (which I think
is GREAT), I just would like to see it work...


--
Mark Murray
46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa
+27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 12:03:47 1995
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From: julian@tfs.com (Julian Elischer)
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:03:13 -0800 (PST)
Cc: phk@ref.tfs.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <16399.791626704@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 00:18:24 am
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> 
> > OK, I just had a chat with Jordan over a piece of cake (it's true !)
> 
> Well, like I told you at the time (between mouthfuls): If, by the time
> I get done with my second-stage stuff for the 2.1 install, sup is dead
> then I won't document it.
> 
I don't see that sup has to die..
It suits what I want here just fine..
and it can recover from botched patches easier.. (sup all files that don't
match what's in teh repository)

I don't think we should remove sup as a way of getting FreeBSD..
but I'm all for improving any other methods as well..

julian


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 12:03:53 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502012003.MAA22058@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:03:16 -0800 (PST)
Cc: gj@FreeBSD.org, jkh@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502011943.VAA08158@grunt.grondar.za> from "Mark Murray" at Feb 1, 95 09:43:22 pm
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> > ich persoenlich siehe damit kein problem, es geht sogar auf deutsch :)
> > 
> > In English there's even less problem! Considering the volume of mail
> > you get, use any method you can to speed thibgs up.
> 
> Sukuthetha imfungu mfungu, buyelani emkomeni. Niyabona ke, uyakwazi
> ukuthetha imfungu mfungu nesiXhoseni!
> 

ja det er jo meget godt, kan vi flytte det til rec.lang.fun ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 12:06:24 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502012005.MAA22131@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:05:33 -0800 (PST)
Cc: terry@cs.weber.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502011958.VAA08226@grunt.grondar.za> from "Mark Murray" at Feb 1, 95 09:58:14 pm
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> > > We set up a machine, (thud probably) to run a shell script X times per day
> > > (X in [1..4]) which does a "make cleandist ; make obj ; make all" and if
> > > that succeeds it produces a CTM delta, which gets put in the public
> > > area on ftp.freebsd.org automatically and emailed to the ctm-src-cur 
> > > mailing list at the same time.
> 
> Just one question: what happens when (not if, when) someone misses an
> update? (trashed message/mailbox, or they go on holiday and the service
> provider can't handle the mail volume). How does the poor sod get back
> into step then? A history of these deltas should be kept somewhere, at
> least for FTP, and possibly for mail retrieval. Some sort of sequencing
> should also be involved to keep the series accurate. A source tree full of
> .rej's is a sorry thing.
> 
> Please don't interpret this as an attempt to kill the idea (which I think
> is GREAT), I just would like to see it work...

There will be two distribution channels:  mail and ftp

There will be no .rej's because that's not the way CTM works.  ctm will
not even attempt to apply a delta out of sequence.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 12:36:14 1995
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Message-Id: <199502012029.UAA03535@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: phk@ref.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 20:29:49 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: jkh@morton.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502010504.VAA04194@ref.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jan 31, 95 09:04:59 pm
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In reply to Poul-Henning Kamp who said
> 
> > freefall.cdrom.com.  Are there going to be any others?  If we're going to
> > do backup sup sites, then the time to do it is SOON!
> yes.
> 
> How about this scenario:
> 
> 	ftp a file from freefall
> 	traceroute all of the sites mentioned

Ohh, people are going to love us for that :-)

> 	present menu of three closest
> 

A less drastic solution to a not really solvable problem would be to
look at the domain name of the user and have some heuristic to pick
a site based on that. For the uk that would be fairly trivial as it
would be for many other countries. For the US then maybe some local
net hierarchy knowledge could be used. It's not that big a deal really.

-- 
  Paul Richards, FreeBSD core team member. 
  Phone: +44 1222 874000 x6646 (work), +44 1222 457651 (home)
  Dept. Mechanical Engineering, University of Wales, College Cardiff.
  Internet: paul@FreeBSD.org,  JANET(UK): RICHARDSDP@CARDIFF.AC.UK

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 12:58:40 1995
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From: tunch@cam.paramax.com (Tunc Hoscan)
Message-Id: <9502012052.AA07549@kronos>
To: jkh%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com, gj@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
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> 
> ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
> when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
> capitalize after punctuation?
[elipsis]
> so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
> elegant?  :-)
>
>					jordan
> 

ben de turkce`de surekli kucuk harf kullaniyorum, ama arkadaslarim benim
buyuk harf kullanmami tercih ediyorlar. ne farkeder ki?.. ne kullanirsan
kullan, herkes anliyor nasil olsa!

Get it?..

Tunc N. Hoscan
tunch@cam.paramax.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 13:03:32 1995
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From: "Justin T. Gibbs" <gibbs@estienne.CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-Id: <199502012103.NAA26869@estienne.cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: jkh@morton.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:03:10 -0800 (PST)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199501311847.SAA13918@morton.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 31, 95 06:47:55 pm
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> 
> Part of the 2.1 install will be a network configution menu, and on that
> menu will be a submenu called `SUP	Configure Software Update Protocol'
> And on THAT submenu will be a couple of items, like so:
>

Just make sure that you have a "first" target that stays constant and
pulls a supfile and anything else that sup may be dependent on (you 
may want to ensure that gunzip is around for instance).  So the
target is actually two separate sups (so it will re-read the new
file if necessary).

> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 						Jordan
> 


-- 
Justin T. Gibbs
==============================================
TCS Instructional Group - Programmer/Analyst 1
  Cory | Po | Danube | Volga | Parker | Torus
==============================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 13:10:54 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502012107.AA19660@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
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<<On Wed, 1 Feb 1995 06:56:24 -0600, rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) said:

> Perhaps we need a two step commit process. Basically, developers commit to
> "wanna-be-current". Periodically take a snapshot of this and test to see if
> everything compiles. If not, it gets bounced! Things that pass the sieve go
> into "current".

I think people are missing the point of what ``current'' is (or at
least, was supposed to be when we set this all up)!

I am not willing to waste too much effort on making sure that the
world always compiles; there's no benefit.  I am much more concerned
about whether things compile at release time, and especially whether a
source-only upgrade is possible.  I think worrying about it at any other
time is counterproductive.  (The fact that this is even an issue
indicates to me that there are WAY too many people supping ``current''
as it is.)

While I'm at it, I should speak up on behalf of keeping sup access to
the source tree as is.  None of my machines have enough disk space to
keep two complete copies of the sources to everything...

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 13:15:33 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
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Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 14:08:41 MST
Cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, roberto@blaise.ibp.fr, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011625.DAA17258@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Feb 2, 95 03:25:46 am
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> >Maybe we should optimize stat(2) before... Ask Remy about the tests
> >he made between ext2fs and our ffs. Our stat(2) is way slower than the
> >1.1.5.1 one.
> 
> Actual testing shows that stat() is slightly faster under
> FreeBSD-current than under linux-1.1.36 for files in a medium sized
> directory, and 5 times faster under FreeBSD for files in a large
> directory!  FreeBSD is much slower at creating the files to be stat()ed
> because it updates metadata synchronously.

This is a bogus benchmark; you are hitting pages that are cached by
virtue of the number of reps applied and the operation order.

This does not show the speed loss is not in the stat in practice.

In effect, you are testing system call + copyout time rather than system
call + fetch + copyout time.

This is the same type of reasoning that make Larry McVoy's lmbench
mmap benchmark (map-but-don't-use) bogus.

This is also the same type of thing that has UnixWare claiming 20 mic's
for a system call.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 13:26:36 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
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Subject: Re: New Apple+Intel machine
To: jaitken@cslab.cs.vt.edu (Jeff Aitken)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 14:19:18 MST
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <9502011703.AA27154@cslab.cs.vt.edu> from "Jeff Aitken" at Feb 1, 95 12:03:27 pm
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> I'm still evaluating possible machines for the recommended student
> configuration in a year, and the latest test macchine I've received is
> an Apple with the PowerPC chip (I forget which model number it is) which
> also has an Intel 486 (or pentium, one or the other) on a daughtercard.
> This beast is supposedly able to run MAC and IBM stuff simultaneously,
> so what I'm wondering is what the chances are of getting one of the
> *BSD's on it.  Has anyone used one of these things?  I know NetBSD works
> on the MAC, but I think only the 68k variety.  Is this true? 

You might be able to run on the intel part of it, depending on how
faithfully it acts like PC hardware.

The Mac with the PPC chip is not supported by anyone but Apple right now,
mostly because Apple won't provide sufficient technical information
about the hardware to write UNIX-style device drivers (I think they
cut a deal with the MACHTen people, though).

Otherwise, I'd have one early last year, and it would be running BSD now.

Apple's loss.

Maybe when CHRP (pronounced "chirp"), which is the compromise replacement
for a real PPC standard, PReP, is finally signed on to by all the players,
we'll be able to pry hardware specifications from Apple's cold, dead
fingers.

After all, 100% of 6% is better than 20% of 100% (get a life, Apple).

What, me bitter?


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 13:35:42 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502012135.AA19717@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
In-Reply-To: <199502010755.XAA19507@ref.tfs.com>
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	<199502010755.XAA19507@ref.tfs.com>
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<<On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:55:46 -0800 (PST), Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com> said:

> But for src-current:
> It is stupid.  Look at it:  We run sup-scan every 8 hours, then
> we download individual sets of files to each user based on timestamps.
> That's not particular smart.  We have probably all been hit by the
> zero byte file with the right timestamp havn't we ?

It works great for me, and I've never had any problems with it that
weren't my fault.  As I expressed in another message, I think the
problem is that there are simply too many people running -current, who
aren't prepared to deal with bleeding-edge phenomena.

> On top of that: CTM transfers only the changes, not the entire file
> each time a line is touched.

Sometimes you want the entire file to be transferred.

> CTM uses md5, so it will detect if people have corrupt files.

Like in this case.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 14:49:59 1995
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From: faulkner@mpd.tandem.com (Boyd Faulkner)
Message-Id: <9502012248.AA00545@olympus>
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: phk@ref.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 16:48:00 -0600 (CST)
Cc: jkh@morton.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502010504.VAA04194@ref.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jan 31, 95 09:04:59 pm
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> 
> > freefall.cdrom.com.  Are there going to be any others?  If we're going to
> > do backup sup sites, then the time to do it is SOON!
> yes.
> 
> How about this scenario:
> 
> 	ftp a file from freefall
> 	traceroute all of the sites mentioned
> 	present menu of three closest
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
> TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
> FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)
> 

Sounds nice, unless your access is via socks.  I am behind a firewall
and have to build socksified toys to play with.  I'd rather it did
not get too complicated.  Traceroute could be a problem for me.  I can only
do tcp from here.

Thanks,
Boyd
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

 Boyd Faulkner                                  faulkner@isd.tandem.com 
_______________________________________________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:03:57 1995
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Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:02:14 -0600 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502011214.EAA05180@freefall.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 04:14:09 am
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> 
> ok, just a quick straw poll.  how many people out there _really object_
> when somebody sends them something in all lower-case, too lazy to even
> capitalize after punctuation? this used to sort of bother me until finally
> the light dawned yesterday and i understood - it's a lot *faster* to
> type when you ignore case!  gee! revelation! :-)  now it's no coincidence
> that all my very busiest friends all started doing this around the
> same time! :-)
> 
> on the other hand, as you can plainly see, it looks kinda stupid.
> 
> it is certainly much faster to type, and you run into less run-on mistakes
> where you get two letters cap'd and then you have to go back and muck it all
> up for awhile until finally you can go on to the next word.  bah.
> 
> so what's the concensus?  go for fast but ugly or slower but more
> elegant?  :-)
> 
> 					jordan
> 
> 
I don't care as long as you spell it right.  Running into a spelling error is
like running into a wall.  Ouch.

Boyd

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

 Boyd Faulkner                                  faulkner@isd.tandem.com 
_______________________________________________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:06:05 1995
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To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@kryten.atinc.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>, Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 09:03:10 EST."
             <Pine.3.89.9502010911.E18896-0100000@kryten.atinc.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:05:29 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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No, we've been on `the honor system' since day one.  This has been
discussed before and nobody has ever come up with an elegant solution
for it.

					Jordan
> 
> 	just to state the obvious, do you have an method to prevent 
> export of des code and other controller material?
> 
> jmb
> 
> Jonathan M. Bresler  jmb@kryten.atinc.com	| Analysis & Technology, Inc.  
> 						| 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy
> play go.					| Arlington, VA 22202
> ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life	| 703-418-2800 x346


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:20:55 1995
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To: Remy.Card@masi.ibp.fr (Remy CARD)
cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 19:17:26 +0100."
             <199502011817.TAA11446@aphrodite.ibp.fr> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:20:48 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> 	Pour moi, ca va encore plus vite quand j'ecris en Francais parce que
> je n'ai pas besoin de reflechir a la traduction en anglais :-)

Well, I suppose we've been using english for 18 months now.  Could be
perceived as unfair.  I'm willing to give French a shot as the
official language on freebsd-* if nobody else minds too much.. :-) :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:22:19 1995
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To: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, roberto@blaise.ibp.fr, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Feb 95 03:25:46 +1100."
             <199502011625.DAA17258@godzilla.zeta.org.au> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:21:36 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> Profiling cvs doesn't show much in-core file system activity.  I think
> it's just spending too much time waiting to write metadata and temporary
> files to the disk.  This is nothing new, so it's not clear why 1.1.5
> was faster.

So..  Um..  Now that you've measured it, how do we *fix* it? :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:23:32 1995
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To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 10:24:35 PST."
             <199502011824.KAA20962@ref.tfs.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:22:15 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> DON'T YOU HAVE SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE TO DO ??  :-)

yes, what do you think I was avoiding by writing specious email? :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:32:44 1995
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To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@kryten.atinc.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 09:42:16 EST."
             <Pine.3.89.9502010919.G18896-0100000@kryten.atinc.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:27:40 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> ps. 	whats a moin, moin?

Morning, morning!

In north-German dialect.. :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:33:06 1995
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To: jfieber@cs.smith.edu (John Fieber)
cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 09:48:48 EST."
             <199502011448.JAA17173@grendel.csc.smith.edu> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:32:47 -0800
Message-ID: <9078.791681567@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> heckwhyevenbotherwithpunctuationifyouaddupallthetimeyouspendtyping
> thoseblastedlittleperiodsquestionmarkscommasandworstofallspacesyou
> begintorealizehowmuchofyourlifehasbeensquanderedonsuchtrivialdetail
> whoneedspunctuationanywayitsforwimpsifyoucantreadwithoutusingsuch
> disgustingcrutchewhodoyouthinkyouareanyway

Sigh..  I just *knew* I was going to regret bringing that up! :-)

Oh well, we can't all be serious all the time.  Just wait until you
guys see my April 1st snapshot.. :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:44:14 1995
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To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
cc: root@io.cts.com (Morgan Davis), jkh@FreeBSD.org,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 09:42:46 MST."
             <9502011642.AA06840@cs.weber.edu> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:42:56 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> Would an all singing, all dancing administration tool, like SVR4 sysadm
> or AIX's be a sufficient answer to this problem?

It would certainly be a heck of a start.  I've made a very rudimentary
beginning on this with `dmenu', but something a lot more polished I
certainly would not kick out of bed for eating crackers.

> What it if was only available as a GUI tool?

There would be some fuss, but since Jeremy has kindly offered Xaccel
at VGA resolutions, we'd have most folks covered.

> The installer is a special purpose program -- that is, its scope is
> extremely limited.  It does what it does extremely well.  You might
> liken it to a car that runs real well in one lane of a 20 lane
> freeway.  Reentering it is like trying to signal a lane change.

I'd be even more blunt: Reentering it simply should not be allowed,
with the installer leaving the system after installation.

> Maybe what's needed is a tool writing pragmatist, willing to start
> pulling administration sources from the comp.sources archives and
> make them work.  In a volunteer project, that person may be difficult
> to find.

Oh, I don't know..  The person I'm writing to seems very qualified! :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:46:48 1995
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To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
cc: roberto@hsc.fr.net, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: NFS V3 Alpha release (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 09:53:26 MST."
             <9502011653.AA06873@cs.weber.edu> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:46:31 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> If this was truly a BSD based project, this is worth a PRESS RELEASE!

Any suggestions? :-)

A FreeBSD press blitz has long been planned, funded and is simply
waiting for 2.1 so I can have something relly worth plugging.  Got my
letter to BYTE already written, in fact..  I'm just too cool for
words!  :-) :-)

Aactually, in all seriousness, any and all suggestions over the next
couple of months will be greatly appreciated - I AM serious about
this!  We're going to do some promo posters and t-shirts as well, and
I'm pushing for coffee mugs..

						Jordan



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:50:05 1995
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To: Peter da Silva <peter@bonkers.taronga.com>
cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 10:36:21 CST."
             <199502011636.KAA13241@bonkers.taronga.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:49:41 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> I think it's sorta cute. I picture this hyperactive Disney-esque toon
> ferret with this insane hacker grin on his face typing away with two
> fingers a-la archy and mehitabel while half the cast of Roger Rabbit
> wait their turns to ask him questions bearing FreeBSD CDROMs in their
> twitching paws.

Oh GAG!  I guess that seals it - I'm typing in mixed case forever and
ever! :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 15:54:38 1995
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From: "M.C Wong" <mcw@hpato.aus.hp.com>
Subject: Re: POS (was Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.) 
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 10:53:21 EDT
Cc: hsu@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <17408.791632879@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 01, 95 2:01 am
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> For databases, they could go Ingres or even spend some time beating on
> postgres to make it something more of what they want.  For a lot of
> applications, however, even that's overkill and they could always just
> use their own file format and B-trees or something.  The DB package we
> ship with isn't even that bad now, actually, and you could certainly
> do something like a small sawmill's work-order database with it.
> 
> 						Jordan
> 
For databases, if you can convince Multisoft to do a port of FlagShip for 
*BSD, that will be great. They've got one for Linux, and are well received.
VERSASOFT even has dBASE III+ compatible DBMS for Linux as well. Both have
got demo and well, they look great!

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 M.C Wong 				   Email: mcw@hpato.aus.hp.com 
 Australian Telecom Operation              Voice: +61 3 272 8058        
 Hewlett-Packard Australia Ltd             Fax:   +61 3 898 9257        
 31 Joseph St, Blackburn 3130, Australia   OS: FreeBSD-1.1.5.1
 http://hpautow.aus.hp.com:9999/~mcw/mcw.html (or http://hpautorf/~mcw)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 16:04:39 1995
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From: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Message-Id: <9502020003.AA12481@blaise.ibp.fr>
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 01:03:50 +0100 (MET)
Cc: Remy.Card@masi.ibp.fr, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <6687.791680848@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 03:20:48 pm
X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development ctm#307
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> Well, I suppose we've been using english for 18 months now.  Could be
> perceived as unfair.  I'm willing to give French a shot as the
> official language on freebsd-* if nobody else minds too much.. :-) :-)

Pas de probleme pour moi <g>.
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT     -=- The daemon is FREE! -=-     roberto@FreeBSD.ORG
   FreeBSD keltia 2.1.0-Development #18: Thu Jan 26 22:22:16 MET 1995

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 16:13:59 1995
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To: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !! 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 16:35:23 EST."
             <9502012135.AA19717@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 16:13:14 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> Sometimes you want the entire file to be transferred.
> 
> > CTM uses md5, so it will detect if people have corrupt files.
> 
> Like in this case.

But it's still too easy to confuse sup, so in many cases you won't get either
of the above, you'll get no file transfered and entirely bogus contents.
Poul's undeniably right about one thing:  Sup's error correction sucks.

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 16:15:43 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502020015.QAA00442@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 16:15:39 -0800 (PST)
Cc: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <9492.791683994@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 04:13:14 pm
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> > Sometimes you want the entire file to be transferred.
> > 
> > > CTM uses md5, so it will detect if people have corrupt files.
> > 
> > Like in this case.
> 
> But it's still too easy to confuse sup, so in many cases you won't get either
> of the above, you'll get no file transfered and entirely bogus contents.
> Poul's undeniably right about one thing:  Sup's error correction sucks.

Well, to be precise:   sup's error detection sucks
-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 16:23:21 1995
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To: tunch@cam.paramax.com (Tunc Hoscan)
Cc: jkh%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com, gj@FreeBSD.org,
        hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 12:52:08 PST."
             <9502012052.AA07549@kronos> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 16:09:55 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> ben de turkce`de surekli kucuk harf kullaniyorum, ama arkadaslarim benim
> buyuk harf kullanmami tercih ediyorlar. ne farkeder ki?.. ne kullanirsan
> kullan, herkes anliyor nasil olsa!

Oh my.  Biblical floods in California and Europe, and now we have the
tower of babel!

The end is nigh!  Repent!  Repent, all ye sinners!! :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 16:23:52 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:23:48 -0500
From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502020023.AA20038@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !! 
In-Reply-To: <9492.791683994@time.cdrom.com>
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	<9492.791683994@time.cdrom.com>
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<<On Wed, 01 Feb 1995 16:13:14 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freebsd.org> said:

> But it's still too easy to confuse sup, so in many cases you won't get either
> of the above, you'll get no file transfered and entirely bogus contents.
> Poul's undeniably right about one thing:  Sup's error correction sucks.

I've never had a loss that I could attribute to sup (other than
forgetting to commit a change so it got blown away overnight).

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 17:32:56 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502020132.AA20232@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@kryten.atinc.com>,
        Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
In-Reply-To: <5672.791679929@time.cdrom.com>
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	<5672.791679929@time.cdrom.com>
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<<On Wed, 01 Feb 1995 15:05:29 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org> said:

> No, we've been on `the honor system' since day one.  This has been
> discussed before and nobody has ever come up with an elegant solution
> for it.

Last I was told, gatekeeper.dec.com has a list of all the IP networks
in ``bad'' countries, and filters them out.  (That's what is meant by
``or you would not have connectivity to this machine''.)

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 17:45:52 1995
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cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>,
        "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@kryten.atinc.com>,
        Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 20:32:39 EST."
             <9502020132.AA20232@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 17:40:45 -0800
Message-ID: <9918.791689245@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

> Last I was told, gatekeeper.dec.com has a list of all the IP networks
> in ``bad'' countries, and filters them out.  (That's what is meant by
> ``or you would not have connectivity to this machine''.)

That's completely and utterly news to me!  And it also certainly
doesn't work on DEC's internal network going outside the country.
Trust me.. :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 18:14:52 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502020207.AA09260@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: NFS V3 Alpha release (fwd)
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 19:07:39 MST
Cc: roberto@hsc.fr.net, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9222.791682391@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 03:46:31 pm
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> > If this was truly a BSD based project, this is worth a PRESS RELEASE!
> 
> Any suggestions? :-)
> 
> A FreeBSD press blitz has long been planned, funded and is simply
> waiting for 2.1 so I can have something relly worth plugging.  Got my
> letter to BYTE already written, in fact..  I'm just too cool for
> words!  :-) :-)
> 
> Aactually, in all seriousness, any and all suggestions over the next
> couple of months will be greatly appreciated - I AM serious about
> this!  We're going to do some promo posters and t-shirts as well, and
> I'm pushing for coffee mugs..

Well, assuming the answer to the "is it a BSD based developement effort"
is "yes", something like:

(Terry's "build your own press release kit")
==========================================================================
THE FIRST PUBLIC NFS 3.0 REFERENCE IMPLEMENTATION NOW AVAILABLE ON BSD

<bold>Next generation of file sharing protocols unveiled</bold>

Cyberspace, Feb. 1, 1995 -- The University of Guelph today announced the
availability of a reference implementation of the long awaited NFS 3.0
file sharing protocol... on FreeBSD 2.0.

"This code has only been tested in FreeBSD2.0R, but should be runable in
other 4.4BSD-Lite based operating systems without too much effort," said
Rick Macklem, <Rick's relationship to the project and the University>.

"Users have been eagerly awaiting NFS 3.0", said <insert person making
release here and their position and affiliation>.  "Now it's real, it's
actively under development, and I'm sure users will agree it has been
worth the wait".

<describe features of NFS 3.0>

<another quote of someone, telling why it's better than 2.0>

<decribe the development environment>

"We chose BSD because of <reasons>," said <person>, "It's always nice
when you have full source to something when you're trying to debug".

<etc.>

<bold>Availability</bold>

<information on how to get it, expected developement schedule, etc.>


<Information about the University of Guelph and why you'd want to send
your kids there.>

<Information on FreeBSD, why it is cool, plug for free OS's in general,
probably including Linux to build credibility as a peer>

<Plug for BSD availability>

<standard NASDAC and other crud for company actually making the release>
==========================================================================

It'd probably be nice if you could anon FTP to snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca
without the guest account failing, though.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 18:21:32 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:03:39 -0500
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199502020203.VAA01811@ponds.UUCP>
To: freebsd-hackers@wcarchive.cdrom.com, longyear@netcom.com,
        rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com
Subject: chat(8) improvements for SL/IP dialout.
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk


Well, having wrestled with kermit, etc... to automate my SL/IP connections,
I decided to modify the chat(8) program for my purposes.  (Kermit, and
several other alternatives were not adequate because I don't want to
reset the modem with AT&D0, for SL/IP dial-out because I also have a 
getty on the dial-in side.)

The following changes to chat.c (and the chat.8 man page) add two
options:  
	-c <command>
	-s <speed>

which cause chat to set the baud rate of the terminal before "chatting" and,
if it is successful at the chat script, executing the command.

Thus, for starting up my SL/IP connection, I issue commands like:

   chat -s 19200 -c "my_slattach_script"  
              "" ATDT... OK ogin: .... < /dev/cua01 > /dev/cua01

where "my_slattach_script" sets up the default routes, /etc/resolv.conf,
and the appropriate ifconfig, and then executes an slattach command.

I have found this *extremely* helpful, and it could ease the problems
other people have encountered.  If we could, I'd like to have these
improvements in FreeBSD 2.1.  If someone commits this to the CVS tree,
please let me know (and if there are objections, please let me know,
and I'll try and change minds :-) )

	 - Thanks -
	- Dave Rivers -

---------------------- cut here (diffs to chat version 1.8) -----------
*** chat.c.ori	Wed Feb  1 20:08:48 1995
--- chat.c	Wed Feb  1 21:02:17 1995
***************
*** 4,9 ****
--- 4,11 ----
   *
   *	This software is in the public domain.
   *
+  *      Thomas David Rivers (ponds!rivers): Added -c and -s support.
+  *
   *	Please send all bug reports, requests for information, etc. to:
   *
   *		Al Longyear (longyear@netcom.com)
***************
*** 101,106 ****
--- 103,111 ----
  char *chat_file = (char *)0;
  int timeout = DEFAULT_CHAT_TIMEOUT;
  
+ char *command = NULL;
+ long speed = 0;
+ 
  int have_tty_parameters = 0;
  #ifdef TERMIO
  struct termio saved_tty_parameters;
***************
*** 166,171 ****
--- 171,177 ----
  
  /*
   *	chat [ -v ] [ -t timeout ] [ -l lock-file ] [ -f chat-file ] \
+ 		[ -c command ] [-s speed] \
   *		[...[[expect[-say[-expect...]] say expect[-say[-expect]] ...]]]
   *
   *	Perform a UUCP-dialer-like chat script on stdin and stdout.
***************
*** 196,202 ****
  		break;
  
  	    case 'l':
! 		if (arg = OPTARG(argc, argv))
  		    lock_file = copy_of(arg);
  		else
  		    usage();
--- 202,208 ----
  		break;
  
  	    case 'l':
! 		if (arg = OPTARG(argc, argv)) 
  		    lock_file = copy_of(arg);
  		else
  		    usage();
***************
*** 211,216 ****
--- 217,238 ----
  
  		break;
  
+ 	    case 's':
+ 		if (arg = OPTARG(argc, argv))  
+ 		    speed = atoi(arg);
+ 		else
+ 		    usage();
+ 		break;
+ 
+ 	    case 'c':
+ 		if (arg = OPTARG(argc,argv)) 
+ 		    command = (char *)copy_of(arg);
+ 		else 
+ 		    usage();
+ 		break;
+ 		
+ 
+ 
  	    default:
  		usage();
  	    }
***************
*** 248,253 ****
--- 270,279 ----
  	    }
  	}
  
+     if(command != NULL) {
+ 	/* Execute the given command */
+ 	system(command);
+     }
      terminate(0);
      }
  
***************
*** 336,342 ****
  void usage()
      {
      fprintf(stderr, "\
! Usage: %s [-v] [-l lock-file] [-t timeout] {-f chat-file || chat-script}\n",
  	    program_name);
      exit(1);
      }
--- 362,369 ----
  void usage()
      {
      fprintf(stderr, "\
! Usage: %s [-v] [-l lock-file] [-t timeout] \
! {-f chat-file || chat-script} [-c command] [-s speed]\n",
  	    program_name);
      exit(1);
      }
***************
*** 489,497 ****
--- 516,533 ----
      t.c_iflag |= IGNBRK | ISTRIP | IGNPAR;
      t.c_oflag  = 0;
      t.c_lflag  = 0;
+     if(command) {
+ 	  /* If we're going to execute a command, don't hang-up */
+ 	  /* the device when we're done. */
+ 	t.c_cflag &= ~HUPCL;
+     }
      t.c_cc[VERASE] = t.c_cc[VKILL] = 0;
      t.c_cc[VMIN] = 1;
      t.c_cc[VTIME] = 0;
+     if(speed != 0) {
+ 	t.c_ispeed = speed;
+ 	t.c_ospeed = speed;
+     }
  
  #ifdef TERMIO
      if (ioctl(0, TCSETA, &t) < 0)
***************
*** 513,518 ****
--- 549,559 ----
  void terminate(status)
  int status;
      {
+     if(command != (char *)0) {
+ 	/* NB: don't unlock when there is a command to execute. */
+ 	/*     and don't reset the tty. */
+ 	exit(status);
+     }
      if (have_tty_parameters &&
  #ifdef TERMIO
          ioctl(0, TCSETA, &saved_tty_parameters) < 0
*** chat.8.ori	Wed Feb  1 20:46:51 1995
--- chat.8	Wed Feb  1 21:03:44 1995
***************
*** 1,12 ****
  .\" -*- nroff -*-
! .\" manual page [] for chat 1.8
  .\" chat.8,v 1.1.1.1 1994/11/12 05:25:32 lars Exp
  .\" SH section heading
  .\" SS subsection heading
  .\" LP paragraph
  .\" IP indented paragraph
  .\" TP hanging label
! .TH CHAT 8 "17 April 1994" "Chat Version 1.8"
  .SH NAME
  chat \- Automated conversational script with a modem
  .SH SYNOPSIS
--- 1,12 ----
  .\" -*- nroff -*-
! .\" manual page [] for chat 1.9
  .\" chat.8,v 1.1.1.1 1994/11/12 05:25:32 lars Exp
  .\" SH section heading
  .\" SS subsection heading
  .\" LP paragraph
  .\" IP indented paragraph
  .\" TP hanging label
! .TH CHAT 8 "17 April 1994" "Chat Version 1.9"
  .SH NAME
  chat \- Automated conversational script with a modem
  .SH SYNOPSIS
***************
*** 20,28 ****
  The \fIchat\fR program defines a conversational exchange between the
  computer and the modem. Its primary purpose is to establish the
  connection between the Point-to-Point Protocol Daemon (\fIpppd\fR) and
! the remote's \fIpppd\fR process.
  .SH OPTIONS
  .TP
  .B -f \fI<chat file>
  Read the chat script from the chat \fIfile\fR. The use of this option
  is mutually exclusive with the chat script parameters. The user must
--- 20,41 ----
  The \fIchat\fR program defines a conversational exchange between the
  computer and the modem. Its primary purpose is to establish the
  connection between the Point-to-Point Protocol Daemon (\fIpppd\fR) and
! the remote's \fIpppd\fR process.  Or, chat can be used to negotiate
! any connect and then execute a command.
  .SH OPTIONS
  .TP
+ .B -c \fI<command>
+ .IP
+ Upon successful completion of the chat script;  the named \fIcommand\fR
+ will be executed.  This is helpful when using chat to negotiate a SL/IP
+ connection.  Chat can be used to dial the modem and connect to the
+ remote site, then, issue the appropriate \fPslattach()\fR command.
+ If the \fB-c\fR option is used, chat will set the line to no HUPCL, so
+ the subsequent termination of chat will not reset the modem.  Also, 
+ if \fB-c\fR is used, chat will not unlink any lock file specified with
+ the \fB-l\fR option, and will not reset the tty to it's previous state
+ when exiting.  The executed command is responsible for these items.
+ .TP
  .B -f \fI<chat file>
  Read the chat script from the chat \fIfile\fR. The use of this option
  is mutually exclusive with the chat script parameters. The user must
***************
*** 49,54 ****
--- 62,74 ----
  exclusive options and will cause one or the other program to fail to
  achieve the required lock if you use both.
  .TP
+ .B -s \fI<speed>
+ .IP
+ Set the baud rate.  This is useful when using chat directly in
+ combination with the
+ .B -c
+ option.
+ .TP
  .B -t \fI<timeout>
  Set the timeout for the expected string to be received. If the string
  is not received within the time limit then the reply string is not
***************
*** 240,251 ****
  Substitute the sequence with the control character represented by C.
  For example, the character DC1 (17) is shown as \^^Q.
  .I (some characters are not valid in expect.)
  .SH SEE ALSO
  Additional information about \fIchat\fR scripts may be found with UUCP
  documentation. The \fIchat\fR script was taken from the ideas proposed by the
! scripts used by the \fIuucico\fR program.
  .LP
! uucico(1), uucp(1)
  .SH COPYRIGHT
  The \fIchat\fR program is in public domain. This is not the GNU public
  license. If it breaks then you get to keep both pieces.
--- 260,282 ----
  Substitute the sequence with the control character represented by C.
  For example, the character DC1 (17) is shown as \^^Q.
  .I (some characters are not valid in expect.)
+ .SH USE WITH SL/IP
+ By taking advantage of the \fB-c\fR and the \fB-s\fR options, chat can
+ also be used to establish a SL/IP connection.  For example:
+ .IP
+ DEV=cua01
+ chat -s 19200 -c "slattach -s 19200 /dev/$DEV" ogin: ppp ssword: hello2u2 </dev/$DEV > /dev/$DEV
+ .LP
+ will cause the script to be executed on the /dev/cua01 device, at 19200 baud.
+ If that negotiation is successful, the \fBslattach\fR command will be
+ executed to establish the SL/IP connection.
  .SH SEE ALSO
  Additional information about \fIchat\fR scripts may be found with UUCP
  documentation. The \fIchat\fR script was taken from the ideas proposed by the
! scripts used by the \fIuucico\fR program.  For information on SL/IP, see
! the \fIslattach\fR man page.
  .LP
! uucico(1), uucp(1), slattach(8)
  .SH COPYRIGHT
  The \fIchat\fR program is in public domain. This is not the GNU public
  license. If it breaks then you get to keep both pieces.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 18:42:45 1995
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From: julian@tfs.com (Julian Elischer)
Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 18:41:15 -0800 (PST)
Cc: jfieber@cs.smith.edu, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9078.791681567@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 03:32:47 pm
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IBELIEVETHEGREEKSUSEDTOWRITETHISWAYANDIDONTKNOWIFTHEYUSEDTOUSELOWERCASEAND
UPPERCASEINTHESAMEWAYWEDOORIFTHEYHADANYPUNCTUATION

> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 18:55:31 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:55:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@Glue.umd.edu>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
cc: Remy CARD <Remy.Card@masi.ibp.fr>,
        "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
In-Reply-To: <6687.791680848@time.cdrom.com>
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On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> > 	Pour moi, ca va encore plus vite quand j'ecris en Francais parce que
> > je n'ai pas besoin de reflechir a la traduction en anglais :-)
> 
> Well, I suppose we've been using english for 18 months now.  Could be
> perceived as unfair.  I'm willing to give French a shot as the
> official language on freebsd-* if nobody else minds too much.. :-) :-)

You do that, I begin learning French....


----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
7608 Topton St.             |
New Carrollton, MD 20784    | I run Journey2 (Freebsd 2.0) and n3lxx
(301) 459-2316              | (FreeBSD 1.1.5.1) and am I happy!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 19:00:44 1995
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From: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <199502020300.DAA01082@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 03:00:49 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: terry@cs.weber.edu, root@io.cts.com, jkh@FreeBSD.org,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9197.791682176@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 03:42:56 pm
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In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who said

> 
> > Would an all singing, all dancing administration tool, like SVR4 sysadm
> > or AIX's be a sufficient answer to this problem?
> 
> It would certainly be a heck of a start.  I've made a very rudimentary
> beginning on this with `dmenu', but something a lot more polished I
> certainly would not kick out of bed for eating crackers.
> 
> > What it if was only available as a GUI tool?
> 
> There would be some fuss, but since Jeremy has kindly offered Xaccel
> at VGA resolutions, we'd have most folks covered.
> 

Offered it to who?

> > The installer is a special purpose program -- that is, its scope is
> > extremely limited.  It does what it does extremely well.  You might
> > liken it to a car that runs real well in one lane of a 20 lane
> > freeway.  Reentering it is like trying to signal a lane change.
> 
> I'd be even more blunt: Reentering it simply should not be allowed,
> with the installer leaving the system after installation.
> 

Hmm, I've got a few queries regarding that since a lot of the code that we'll
add to sysinstall this time around is actually quite usefull. All the
disklabelling code is stuff you're going to want to use at other times
besides installation such as when you get a new disk. Also, I'd like to
make it possible to just download a single basic module during installation
and then go get other modules as and when I feel I need more.

There's also a lot of glue in sysinstall that binds all these functions
together that you'd never want to use again, we need to look at this in
a bit more depth.
-- 
  Paul Richards, FreeBSD core team member. 
  Phone: +44 1222 874000 x6646 (work), +44 1222 457651 (home)
  Dept. Mechanical Engineering, University of Wales, College Cardiff.
  Internet: paul@FreeBSD.org,  JANET(UK): RICHARDSDP@CARDIFF.AC.UK

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 19:11:54 1995
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To: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard), terry@cs.weber.edu, root@io.cts.com,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Feb 95 03:00:49 GMT."
             <199502020300.DAA01082@isl.cf.ac.uk> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 19:11:45 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> > There would be some fuss, but since Jeremy has kindly offered Xaccel
> > at VGA resolutions, we'd have most folks covered.
> > 
> Offered it to who?

*Thump* "Wake up, boy!  You bin sleepin' agin'!"

Jeremy talked about this months ago, even announcing it to this very
list!  Xaccel free with FreeBSD at VGA res only (cripped from going
higher - you still need to pay for that! :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 19:15:55 1995
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From: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <199502020314.DAA01145@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 03:14:39 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org, terry@cs.weber.edu, root@io.cts.com,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <10187.791694705@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 07:11:45 pm
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In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who said
> 
> > > There would be some fuss, but since Jeremy has kindly offered Xaccel
> > > at VGA resolutions, we'd have most folks covered.
> > > 
> > Offered it to who?
> 
> *Thump* "Wake up, boy!  You bin sleepin' agin'!"
> 
> Jeremy talked about this months ago, even announcing it to this very
> list!  Xaccel free with FreeBSD at VGA res only (cripped from going
> higher - you still need to pay for that! :-)

Ohh, must have missed that, probably when I had that mail problem and
was dropped off the lists for a few days.

-- 
  Paul Richards, FreeBSD core team member. 
  Phone: +44 1222 874000 x6646 (work), +44 1222 457651 (home)
  Dept. Mechanical Engineering, University of Wales, College Cardiff.
  Internet: paul@FreeBSD.org,  JANET(UK): RICHARDSDP@CARDIFF.AC.UK

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 19:19:18 1995
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To: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
cc: freebsd-hackers@wcarchive.cdrom.com, longyear@netcom.com,
        rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com
Subject: Re: chat(8) improvements for SL/IP dialout. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 21:03:39 EST."
             <199502020203.VAA01811@ponds.UUCP> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 19:13:53 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> The following changes to chat.c (and the chat.8 man page) add two
> options:  
> 	-c <command>
> 	-s <speed>
> 

I'd like to, but your patch for chat.8 is bogus - it's not to -current
sources!

Can you re-send me your patch against current, at least for chat.8?  The
chat.c changes went in without any problem..

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 19:31:06 1995
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To: jdc@crab.xinside.com
cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard), wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Am I dreaming? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Jan 95 02:29:29 GMT."
             <199501280929.CAA16417@crab.xinside.com> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 19:30:54 -0800
Message-ID: <10336.791695854@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
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> The automount daemon circumvents the same problem appearing for NFS.
> Life goes on while the automounter tracks down and mounts the
> required resource... It's been a while since I ran a network large
> enough to justify automounting, but I don't remember any system
> delays while the node was found and mounted.  Would it be useful to
> consider what & how the automounter achieves its' effects?  Note that

Actually, it sort of would since I've always *wondered* how it did that! :-)

Anybody know off the top of their heads?

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 19:43:54 1995
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Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:43:42 -0500
From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502020343.AA20549@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Cc: jdc@crab.xinside.com, wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Am I dreaming? 
In-Reply-To: <10336.791695854@time.cdrom.com>
References: <199501280929.CAA16417@crab.xinside.com>
	<10336.791695854@time.cdrom.com>
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<<On Wed, 01 Feb 1995 19:30:54 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freebsd.org> said:

>> The automount daemon circumvents the same problem appearing for NFS.
>> Life goes on while the automounter tracks down and mounts the
>> required resource... It's been a while since I ran a network large
>> enough to justify automounting, but I don't remember any system
>> delays while the node was found and mounted.  Would it be useful to
>> consider what & how the automounter achieves its' effects?  Note that

> Actually, it sort of would since I've always *wondered* how it did that! :-)

> Anybody know off the top of their heads?

amd relies on NFS retransmissions for reliability.  If it needs to do
something that isn't finished right away, it will just drop the
packet, start the operation, and let the kernel eventually time out
and retransmit.  That's why it turns off the automatic RTT estimation
in the kernel (because the RTT depends on what it's being asked to
do).

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 20:36:16 1995
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From: Gary Clark II <gclarkii@phoenix.net>
Message-Id: <199502020431.WAA06160@ phoenix.net>
Subject: Re: POS (was Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
To: mcw@hpato.aus.hp.com (M.C Wong)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:31:57 -0500 (CST)
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org, hsu@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502012354.AA167432870@hp.com> from "M.C Wong" at Feb 2, 95 10:53:21 am
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> 
> > For databases, they could go Ingres or even spend some time beating on
> > postgres to make it something more of what they want.  For a lot of
> > applications, however, even that's overkill and they could always just
> > use their own file format and B-trees or something.  The DB package we
> > ship with isn't even that bad now, actually, and you could certainly
> > do something like a small sawmill's work-order database with it.
> > 
> > 						Jordan
> > 
> For databases, if you can convince Multisoft to do a port of FlagShip for 
> *BSD, that will be great. They've got one for Linux, and are well received.
> VERSASOFT even has dBASE III+ compatible DBMS for Linux as well. Both have
> got demo and well, they look great!
> 
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  M.C Wong 				   Email: mcw@hpato.aus.hp.com 

For us to get FlagShip to do the port, we would have to have SysV terminal
stuff up to snuff.

Gary


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 21:21:40 1995
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To: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>, jdc@crab.xinside.com,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Am I dreaming? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 22:43:42 EST."
             <9502020343.AA20549@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> 
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 21:16:29 -0800
Message-ID: <13339.791702189@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

> amd relies on NFS retransmissions for reliability.  If it needs to do
> something that isn't finished right away, it will just drop the
> packet, start the operation, and let the kernel eventually time out

I think the question was more one of how it get its mitts on user
requests for files that aren't currently mounted.

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 21:32:12 1995
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From: Jeremy Chatfield <jdc@crab.xinside.com>
Message-Id: <199502020531.WAA04626@crab.xinside.com>
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: paul@isl.cf.ac.uk (Paul Richards)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:31:40 +0000 (MST)
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org, terry@cs.weber.edu, root@io.cts.com,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502020300.DAA01082@isl.cf.ac.uk> from "Paul Richards" at Feb 2, 95 03:00:49 am
Organization: X Inside Inc, P O Box 10774, Golden, CO 80401-0610, USA.
Phone: +1(303)470-5302
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Paul Richards writes:
> 
> In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who said
> > > Would an all singing, all dancing administration tool, like SVR4 sysadm
> > > or AIX's be a sufficient answer to this problem?
> > 
> > It would certainly be a heck of a start.  I've made a very rudimentary
> > beginning on this with `dmenu', but something a lot more polished I
> > certainly would not kick out of bed for eating crackers.
> > 
> > > What it if was only available as a GUI tool?
> > 
> > There would be some fuss, but since Jeremy has kindly offered Xaccel
> > at VGA resolutions, we'd have most folks covered.
> 
> Offered it to who?

The offer was made to FreeBSD.Org in early or mid December in the
midst of discussion about whether to use a GUI based
post-install/configuration phase.  We're interested in promoting the
use of the X Window System, we maintain 640x480x16bpp for pretty much
every chipset you can think of (if you invoke the Server and we can't
identify what you have, but we can find enough to run VGA, we'll do
so).  It solved an argument about being unable to guarantee
640x480x4bpp operation on all VGA hardware.

We're quite happy to provide a crippled (640x480x4bpp) Server for
almost any environment for which we currently have a port, especially
if makes the OS easier to install, configure and use.  Our market
grows as the size of the whole UNIX market grows.  It is a little
extra work for us (we have to make it so that pulling down the
patches from our Anon-FTP Server doesn't permit someone to build a
useful working Server for which they'd have otherwise paid us).

Cheers, JeremyC.
-- 
Jeremy Chatfield, +1(303)470-5302, FAX:+1(303)470-5513, email:jdc@xinside.com
        X Inside Inc, P O Box 10774, Golden, CO 80401-0610, USA.
   Commercial X Server - for more information please try these services
http://www.xinside.com            info@xinside.com            ftp.xinside.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 21:49:22 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:47:16 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502020547.QAA02136@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: bde@zeta.org.au, terry@cs.weber.edu
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, roberto@blaise.ibp.fr
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

>> Actual testing shows that stat() is slightly faster under
>> FreeBSD-current than under linux-1.1.36 for files in a medium sized
>> ...

>This is a bogus benchmark; you are hitting pages that are cached by
>virtue of the number of reps applied and the operation order.

Somewhat bogus.  I'm _trying_ to test what happens for things in
cache(s).  If the disk has to be accessed, then stat() will be 10-100
times slower.  I'm not trying to understand why the disk has to be
accessed (yet).  Profiling shows if the disk is accessed a lot (it
isn't).  I didn't include a profile for the test in my previous mail.
The enclosed profile is for a slightly modified test without the
creat()s and with the stat() loop repeated 100 times for 100000 stat()s
altogether.

>This does not show the speed loss is not in the stat in practice.

The profile does.  It also shows that everything is cached.

>In effect, you are testing system call + copyout time rather than system
>call + fetch + copyout time.

Nope.  The syscall + copyout time are relatively small.  The leaf
routines that take the longest time are bcmp() (presumably for caching
- 48 bcmp's per stat(), and our kernel bcmp() is the slow C version!)
and user() (this is for all user time; presumably it's mostly for
printf).

>This is the same type of reasoning that make Larry McVoy's lmbench
>mmap benchmark (map-but-don't-use) bogus.

Even bogus benchmarks can give interesting results if they are
profiled.  Note that my profiling is non-statistical and should be
fairly accurate except possibly for very fast leaf routines
(< 10 usec).

Bruce

---
granularity: each sample hit covers 4 byte(s) for 0.00% of 64.21 seconds

                                  called/total       parents 
index  %time    self descendents  called+self    name    	index
                                  called/total       children
...
-----------------------------------------------

                1.18       53.20  102299/102299      _Xsyscall [2]
[3]     84.7    1.18       53.20  102299         _syscall [3]
                0.50       51.77  100011/100011      _stat [4]
                0.37        0.00  102253/103616      _copyin [53]
                0.02        0.13    2584/3396        _mi_switch [62]
...
-----------------------------------------------

                0.50       51.77  100011/100011      _syscall [3]
[4]     81.4    0.50       51.77  100011         _stat [4]
                0.87       44.88  100011/100043      _namei [5]
                1.65        2.62  100009/100020      _vn_stat [15]
                0.94        0.00  100009/100766      _copyout [38]
                0.05        0.76  100009/100053      _vput [41]
...
granularity: each sample hit covers 4 byte(s) for 0.00% of 208.85 seconds

  %   cumulative   self              self     total           
 time   seconds   seconds    calls  us/call  us/call  name    
 41.5     86.635   86.635                             _cputime (842)
 17.6    123.321   36.686                             _mcount (1514)
 10.1    144.476   21.155                             _mexitcount (1516)
  5.0    154.958   10.481  4809131        2        2  _bcmp [9]
  3.2    161.734    6.776                             _user [11]
  2.1    166.034    4.300   200086       21      193  _ufs_lookup [7]
  1.0    168.037    2.003   100043       20      420  _lookup [6]
  0.9    170.001    1.964    68910       28      108  _getnewvnode [10]
  0.9    171.868    1.867   100049       19      144  _ffs_vget [8]
  0.8    173.520    1.652   100020       17       43  _vn_stat [15]
  0.8    175.126    1.606   169239        9       10  _brelse [25]
  0.8    176.702    1.576   100054       16       16  _ufs_getattr [26]
  0.7    178.206    1.504   169234        9        9  _malloc <cycle 1> [27]
  0.7    179.646    1.440   200106        7        7  ___qdivrem [28]
  0.7    181.050    1.404   200086        7       36  _cache_lookup [12]
  0.6    182.336    1.286   540599        2        2  _ufs_unlock [31]
  0.6    183.580    1.244   169229        7        7  _free <cycle 1> [32]
  0.6    184.755    1.176   102299       11      531  _syscall [3]
  0.5    185.871    1.115   302736        4        4  _ufs_lock [34]
  0.5    186.864    0.993   369120        3        5  _vrele [22]
  0.5    187.809    0.944   100766        9        9  _copyout [38]
  0.4    188.736    0.928   169332        5        5  _incore [39]
  0.4    189.652    0.916    68961       13       17  _ffs_fsync [33]
  0.4    190.520    0.868   100043        9      457  _namei [5]
  0.4    191.344    0.823   100048        8       14  _cache_enter [29]
  0.4    192.166    0.823   169214        5       14  _getblk [19]
  0.4    192.921    0.754   100147        8        8  _copyinstr [42]
  0.4    193.669    0.749   100249        7       27  _ffs_blkatoff [18]
  0.4    194.417    0.748   200116        4        4  _ufs_access [43]
  0.3    195.107    0.691    68908       10       27  _vinvalbuf [23]
  0.3    195.797    0.689    71070       10       10  _bzero [46]
  0.3    196.473    0.677   169195        4       19  _bread [17]
  0.3    197.122    0.648   200094        3       10  ___udivdi3 [21]
  0.3    197.761    0.639   169239        4        4  _bremfree [47]
  0.3    198.356    0.596   102817        6        6  _bcopy [48]
  0.3    198.941    0.585    68908        8       75  _vgone [13]
  0.3    199.505    0.564    68910        8        8  _ufs_vinit [49]
  0.3    200.061    0.555    68908        8       67  _vclean [14]
  0.3    200.607    0.547   168953        3        6  _ufs_inactive [37]
  0.2    201.128    0.521   100049        5        7  _ufs_ihashget [44]
  0.2    201.628    0.499   100011        5      523  _stat [4]
  0.2    202.096    0.469    43163       11       21  _hardclock [40]
  0.2    202.562    0.466   131204        4        7  _vget [36]
  0.2    202.940    0.378    68910        5        5  _ufs_ihashins [52]
  0.2    203.317    0.376   174015        2        3  _doreti [50]
  0.2    203.688    0.371   103616        4        4  _copyin [53]
...

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 21:59:35 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502020559.VAA02884@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:59:31 -0800 (PST)
Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, roberto@blaise.ibp.fr,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <6912.791680896@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 1, 95 03:21:36 pm
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> 
> > Profiling cvs doesn't show much in-core file system activity.  I think
> > it's just spending too much time waiting to write metadata and temporary
> > files to the disk.  This is nothing new, so it's not clear why 1.1.5
> > was faster.
> 
> So..  Um..  Now that you've measured it, how do we *fix* it? :-)

How much time does cvs actually spend fork/exec'ing rcs ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 22:00:06 1995
Return-Path: hackers-owner
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	id AA02169; Wed, 1 Feb 95 21:59:43 PST
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 21:59:42 -0800 (PST)
From: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: popper
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950201215021.351B-100000@efn.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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well...  I'm not sure this is the proper place to put this... but I have 
been having problems with popper... the major problem is that popper 
isn't truncating the pop spool temp file...  and basicly I was getting 
messages over and over again that I had already received...  so I decided 
to get a different pop mail server....

so I went out and got pop3d...  and ported it to FreeBSD...  I put it 
together as a port...  thanks to pst who did the popper port to provide 
me with the template for the makefile...  I hope this works but this is 
the first time I have ever done anything like this... and I haven't 
tested out getting the file automaticly via ftp as I don't have access to 
a FreeBSD machine that is connected to the internet...  just thought we 
might want another port even if it is a repeat...  TTYL...

John-Mark Gurney

gurney_j@efn.org -or-
gurney_j@4j.lane.edu -or-
Fido: John-Mark Gurney @ 1:152/56.2


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 22:21:55 1995
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Message-Id: <199502020620.IAA10073@grunt.grondar.za>
X-Authentication-Warning: grunt.grondar.za: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol
To: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard), Remy.Card@masi.ibp.fr,
        jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com,
        mark@grunt.grondar.za
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 08:20:20 +0200
From: Mark Murray <mark@grondar.za>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

> Pas de probleme pour moi <g>.

Moi aussi. Naturellement (sp?) je parle un peu de Francais...

--
Mark Murray
46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa
+27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 22:28:56 1995
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Received: (rivers@localhost) by ponds.UUCP (8.6.9/8.6.5) id MAA02933; Mon, 30 Jan 1995 12:53:57 -0500
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 12:53:57 -0500
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199501301753.MAA02933@ponds.UUCP>
To: freebsd-bugs@freefall.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: drand48 problems persist.
Sender: hackers-owner@freebsd.org
Precedence: bulk


I know several people have indicated they are unable to reproduce
my reported problems about drand48 (on FreeBSD 2.0R).

However, I'm unable to get drand48 to work on any machine where 2.0R is
installed.

Here's an example script where I ran the test on a Pentium PCI machine,
running stock 2.0R  (I'm assuming printf() blew up because it was
handed a completely invalid floating pt. number):

If anyone has an idea as to what's happening here; don't hesitate to
let me know.

	- Thanks -
	- Dave Rivers -

p.s. I note that I can compile this with the -lm (to get the math libraries)
     *or* without the -lm, since drand48() is defined in libc.a.  Thus,
     I don't believe this has anything to do with the math libraries
     (sun or otherwise.)

------------------------- typescript ---------------------------
Script started on Mon Jan 30 12:57:11 1995
[numb.pc.sas.com]$ cat t.c

extern double drand48();

main()
{
        int i;
        double d;

        for(i=0;i<3072;i++) {
          d = drand48();
          if(d >= 1.0) {
                printf("%lf is greater than 1.0\n", d);
          }
        }
}
[numb.pc.sas.com]$ cc -g t.c -lm
[numb.pc.sas.com]$ ./a.out
25982.000000 is greater than 1.0
55082.000000 is greater than 1.0
23156.000000 is greater than 1.0
29267.000000 is greater than 1.0
20885.000000 is greater than 1.0
Floating exception - core dumped
[numb.pc.sas.com]$ gdb ./a.out
GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it
 under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details.
GDB 4.11 (i386-unknown-freebsd), 
Copyright 1993 Free Software Foundation, Inc...
(gdb) run
Starting program: /tmp/./a.out 
25982.000000 is greater than 1.0
55082.000000 is greater than 1.0
23156.000000 is greater than 1.0
29267.000000 is greater than 1.0
20885.000000 is greater than 1.0

Program received signal SIGFPE (8), Floating point exception
0x806d08a in L445 ()
(gdb) where
#0  0x806d08a in L445 ()
#1  0x8087060 in _GLOBAL_OFFSET_TABLE_ ()
#2  0x8066abc in cvt ()
#3  0x8065932 in L227 ()
#4  0x8064246 in printf.so ()
#5  0x15f7 in main () at t.c:12
(gdb) quit
>The program is running.  Quit anyway (and kill it)? (y or n) y
[numb.pc.sas.com]$ 
Script done on Mon Jan 30 12:57:34 1995

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 22:37:45 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502020637.WAA13615@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: drand48 problems persist.
To: ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com (Thomas David Rivers)
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:37:30 -0800 (PST)
Cc: freebsd-bugs@freefall.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199501301753.MAA02933@ponds.UUCP> from "Thomas David Rivers" at Jan 30, 95 12:53:57 pm
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 13831     
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

> If anyone has an idea as to what's happening here; don't hesitate to
> let me know.
> 
Dave,

I just tried it out and had no problems (on a 486DX2).

Here is my binary (I changed 3072 -> 3072000 to expose it more.)
try that on your machine, and send me a uuencoded binary from
your system so that I can try that out on mine.

Poul-Henning

begin 775 a.out
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M@```````````````1``$`&P6````````1``%`'<6````````1``(`'<6````
M````1``)`(P6````````1``*`)06````````1``+`*<6````````1``,`+H6
M````````1``(`+H6````````1``.`,`6````````1``.`,`6```;`P``)``$
M`&P6```C`P``@``%`/S___\G`P``@``&`/3___\L`P``P````"<````M`P``
MP````%<````N`P``X````&H````O`P``X````'`````P`P``7U]$64Y!34E#
M`%]D;&-T;`!?9&QO<&5N`%]D;&-L;W-E`%]?7W!R;V=N86UE`'-T87)T`%]E
M=&5X=`!?96YV:7)O;@!?97)R;F\`7VUA:6X`7V1L<WEM`%]E9&%T80!?96YD
M`"]U<W(O;&EB+V-R=#`N;P`O=F%R+W1M<"]C8S`P,#@Y,3$N;P!G8V,R7V-O
M;7!I;&5D+@!?7U]G;G5?8V]M<&EL961?8P`O=&UP+P!A+F,`:6YT.G0Q/7(Q
M.RTR,30W-#@S-C0X.S(Q-#<T.#,V-#<[`&-H87(Z=#(]<C([,#LQ,C<[`&QO
M;F<@:6YT.G0S/7(Q.RTR,30W-#@S-C0X.S(Q-#<T.#,V-#<[`'5N<VEG;F5D
M(&EN=#IT-#UR,3LP.RTQ.P!L;VYG('5N<VEG;F5D(&EN=#IT-3UR,3LP.RTQ
M.P!L;VYG(&QO;F<@:6YT.G0V/7(Q.S`Q,#`P,#`P,#`P,#`P,#`P,#`P,#`P
M.S`W-S<W-S<W-S<W-S<W-S<W-S<W-S<[`&QO;F<@;&]N9R!U;G-I9VYE9"!I
M;G0Z=#<]<C$[,#`P,#`P,#`P,#`P,#LP,3<W-S<W-S<W-S<W-S<W-S<W-S<W
M-SL`<VAO<G0@:6YT.G0X/7(Q.RTS,C<V.#LS,C<V-SL`<VAO<G0@=6YS:6=N
M960@:6YT.G0Y/7(Q.S`[-C4U,S4[`'-I9VYE9"!C:&%R.G0Q,#UR,3LM,3(X
M.S$R-SL`=6YS:6=N960@8VAA<CIT,3$]<C$[,#LR-34[`&9L;V%T.G0Q,CUR
M,3LT.S`[`&1O=6)L93IT,3,]<C$[.#LP.P!L;VYG(&1O=6)L93IT,30]<C$[
M,3([,#L`8V]M<&QE>"!I;G0Z=#$U/7,X<F5A;#HQ+#`L,S([:6UA9SHQ+#,R
M+#,R.SL`8V]M<&QE>"!F;&]A=#IT,38]<C$V.S0[,#L`8V]M<&QE>"!D;W5B
M;&4Z=#$W/7(Q-SLX.S`[`&-O;7!L97@@;&]N9R!D;W5B;&4Z=#$X/7(Q.#LQ
F,CLP.P!V;VED.G0Q.3TQ.0!M86EN.D8Q`&DZ,0!D.C$S```````X
`
end

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Feb  1 23:41:42 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 01:45:07 -0700
From: kurto@tiny.mcs.usu.edu (Kurt Olsen)
Message-Id: <199502020845.BAA14026@tiny.mcs.usu.edu>
To: freebsd-bugs@freefall.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com,
        ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com
Subject: Re: drand48 problems persist.
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Hi, I've seen this problem, in fact I think that I was the first to report it.
And Bruce Evans sent my a description of what's going in a very short time
after (for which I grateful.)  The situation is that drand48 isn't in some
standard or another so it's not really wanted in the header files which
are trying to be compliant.  So even though you've declared drand48 to
return a double, libc was built with the assumption that it's an int,
therefore when drand48 calls erand48 (also 'thought' to be int) some junk
is left on the fp stack which then blows up later.

A prototype has been placed into stdlib.h, but it's ifdef-ed out requiring
the inclusion of #define POSIXGOBBLEDEEGOOK (or something.)  However I don't
beleive this is defined during the libc build so even though it's in the
headers it won't work unless you can rebuild libc (which unfortunately I
don't have the knowledge, experience or diskspace to do.)

Kurt Olsen
kurto@tiny.mcs.usu.edu

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 00:23:01 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 03:21:34 EST
From: ups@tree.com (Stephan Uphoff)
Message-Id: <9502020821.AA05341@tree.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Am I dreaming?
Cc: ups@tree.com
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>> amd relies on NFS retransmissions for reliability.  If it needs to do
>> something that isn't finished right away, it will just drop the
>> packet, start the operation, and let the kernel eventually time out

>I think the question was more one of how it get its mitts on user
>requests for files that aren't currently mounted.
>
>					Jordan


In order to automout nfs filesystems you need a special filesystem
that sits in the path of file that the user requests.
When a user requests a file it passes through this filesystem.
The filesystem can at that point mount the remote filesystem.
Confused ? Me too - sorry I'm still on a jetlag :(

Maybe an example will help:

@@@@@
A directory contains  auto-mountpoints

/auto

The use should be able to automount a:/home1 and B:/home2 as
/auto/home1 and /auto/home2.

The trick is:
	/auto is a special filesystem (a special nfs server)
        that is triggered by lookup request in the directory /auto
        for home2.
        It then mounts B:/home2 on /mnt_points/XXX (or whatever)
        and the lookup resturns a symbolic link to /mnt_points/XXX
        Normal NFS will now work with the remote filesystem
@@@@@        
 
I hope that answers the questions. 
There are actually two methods I know of - so if you are still
interested let me know and I'll try for a full explanation tomorrow
(when I'm not sleeptyping)


	Stephan





From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 02:59:14 1995
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Debugging networking code
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 10:36:43 +0100
Message-Id: <849.791717803@utis156.cs.utwente.nl>
From: Andras Olah <olah@cs.utwente.nl>
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Currently, the only way to get debugging info from TCP is through
the tcp_debug routine which generates volumnious output on the
console.  I've got two problems with this: (1) I can't select what I
want to see (2) it slows down things considerably, so it's difficult
to test dynamic behavior.

I'd like to improve this situation and I'm asking for comments.  I
thought of the following scheme:
- during debugging I can compile in some probes which save
	state information to an internal structure; these probes
	should generate the minimal possible overhead
- there would an interface (probably a la bpf?) to get and
	save the info generated by the probes if someone is
	interested; and then this data could be post processed.

I'd appreciate comments on how this can be done (if it makes sense
at all).  I'd like to have this facility and there's a student here
who is willing to work on it.

Andras

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 03:03:14 1995
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From: Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Message-Id: <199502021100.LAA01626@isl.cf.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:00:27 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: rkw@dataplex.net, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9502012107.AA19660@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Feb 1, 95 04:07:48 pm
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In reply to Garrett Wollman who said
> 
> <<On Wed, 1 Feb 1995 06:56:24 -0600, rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) said:
> 
> > Perhaps we need a two step commit process. Basically, developers commit to
> > "wanna-be-current". Periodically take a snapshot of this and test to see if
> > everything compiles. If not, it gets bounced! Things that pass the sieve go
> > into "current".
> 
> I think people are missing the point of what ``current'' is (or at
> least, was supposed to be when we set this all up)!
> 
> I am not willing to waste too much effort on making sure that the
> world always compiles; there's no benefit.  I am much more concerned
> about whether things compile at release time, and especially whether a
> source-only upgrade is possible.  I think worrying about it at any other
> time is counterproductive.  (The fact that this is even an issue
> indicates to me that there are WAY too many people supping ``current''
> as it is.)

This is my feeling too. If you're supping -current then expect problems.
-current is *NOT* an upgrade path to fix bugs, that's something we've
always stressed and it is *still* true. In fact, supping -current is
a good way to pick up more serious problems than you had before.

Not that I want to discourage genuine developers getting -current
but if you're moaning about things not working then you're not a
developer since a developer would just fix it or just put up with it
while somone in that area fixes it.

If we're always fussing about -current being release quality then why do we
bother with release cycles. I see no reason for current to get polished up
until we're approaching the test phases.

-- 
  Paul Richards, FreeBSD core team member. 
  Phone: +44 1222 874000 x6646 (work), +44 1222 457651 (home)
  Dept. Mechanical Engineering, University of Wales, College Cardiff.
  Internet: paul@FreeBSD.org,  JANET(UK): RICHARDSDP@CARDIFF.AC.UK

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 03:18:33 1995
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From: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Message-Id: <9502021117.AA14872@blaise.ibp.fr>
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: paul@isl.cf.ac.uk (Paul Richards)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:17:47 +0100 (MET)
Cc: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu, rkw@dataplex.net,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502021100.LAA01626@isl.cf.ac.uk> from "Paul Richards" at Feb 2, 95 11:00:27 am
X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development ctm#307
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> This is my feeling too. If you're supping -current then expect problems.
> -current is *NOT* an upgrade path to fix bugs, that's something we've
> always stressed and it is *still* true. In fact, supping -current is
> a good way to pick up more serious problems than you had before.

Agreed.

-- 
Ollivier ROBERT     -=- The daemon is FREE! -=-     roberto@FreeBSD.ORG
   FreeBSD keltia 2.1.0-Development #18: Thu Jan 26 22:22:16 MET 1995

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 03:30:38 1995
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From: jkh@violet.berkeley.edu (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Message-Id: <199502021025.CAA18617@violet.berkeley.edu>
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Subject: fyi..
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Path: agate!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!satisfied.elf.com!news.mathworks.com!news.duke.edu!gallatin
From: gallatin@hpdemo.isds.duke.edu (Andrew Gallatin)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd,comp.protocols.nfs,comp.os.386bsd.misc
Subject: Re: NFS V3 Alpha release
Date: 1 Feb 1995 18:38:27 GMT
Organization: Institute of Statistics and Decision Sciences, Duke U.
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3gokf3$9h6@news.duke.edu>
References: <3gm938$inb@ccshst05.cs.uoguelph.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpdemo.isds.duke.edu
Keywords: NFS
Xref: agate comp.unix.bsd:18356 comp.protocols.nfs:12602 comp.os.386bsd.misc:5710

In article <3gm938$inb@ccshst05.cs.uoguelph.ca>,
Rick Macklem <rmacklem@uoguelph.ca> wrote:
>For any daring soul who is interested, there is an Alpha test release of
>NFS code that includes support for NFS Version 3 and assorted other new
>features up anonymous ftpable from snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca [131.104.48.1]
>in /pub/nfs.

I'm about to grab this & take a peek.  But before doing so, I just
want to say how amazingly impressed I am that this is out there at
all.  As far as I know, it's only the second implementation of NVS V3
out there, the first being in DEC OSF/1 3.0, which came out only 5
months ago or so.

It's quite impressive for FreeBSD to beat almost every major OS
vendor!

Drew

##############################################################################
#		Andrew Gallatin, Computer Project Manager                    #
#	    Institute of Statistics and Decision Sciences		     #
#	  Box 90251, Duke University, Durham, NC 27708-0251		     #
##############################################################################


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 03:41:33 1995
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To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly)
Cc: jkh@freefall.cdrom.com, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: this is silly - really! 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 07:42:11 MST."
             <9502011442.AA23119@junco.fsl.noaa.gov> 
X-Mailer: exmh version 1.4.1 7/21/94
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 05:16:55 -0600
From: Peter da Silva <peter@bonkers.taronga.com>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

> wow1  you can save even more time by not shifting for punctuation 7
> other symbols 9it looks kind of odd, though0.

Did you know that Interlisp-D would correctly parse things like:

	(cons 9car a) (CDr b00

because that's the sort of typo Teitelbaum used to make.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 03:42:58 1995
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From: Ollivier Robert <Ollivier.Robert@hsc.fr.net>
Message-Id: <199502020933.AA06184@itesec.hsc-sec.fr>
Subject: Re: NFS V3 Alpha release (fwd)
To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:33:45 +0100 (MET)
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org, roberto@hsc.fr.net, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9502020207.AA09260@cs.weber.edu> from "Terry Lambert" at Feb 1, 95 07:07:39 pm
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> It'd probably be nice if you could anon FTP to snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca
> without the guest account failing, though.

I just got it yesterday and anon FTP was possible.
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT  -=-=-  Hervé Schauer Consultants -=-=-   roberto@hsc.fr.net
-=-=-=-=-=- Support The Free UNIX Systems ! FreeBSD NetBSD Linux -=-=-=-=-=-

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 03:44:09 1995
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To: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@wcarchive.cdrom.com, longyear@netcom.com,
        rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com
Subject: Re: chat(8) improvements for SL/IP dialout. 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Feb 95 21:03:39 EST."
             <199502020203.VAA01811@ponds.UUCP> 
X-Mailer: exmh version 1.4.1 7/21/94
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 05:12:29 -0600
From: Peter da Silva <peter@bonkers.taronga.com>
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Precedence: bulk

Looks nifty. One point:

>       t.c_lflag  = 0;
> +     if(command) {
> + 	  /* If we're going to execute a command, don't hang-up */
> + 	  /* the device when we're done. */
> + 	t.c_cflag &= ~HUPCL;
> +     }
>       t.c_cc[VERASE] = t.c_cc[VKILL] = 0;

Why not? Oh, for SLIP or PPP where the command just establishes a connection
that's useful, but for a situation where you're running some conventional
command (like, say, a dialback security mechanism) you want to retain HUPCL.

I'd say make this a separate option, or even better have an optional set of
stty arguments to apply to the port (including baud rate, which you can pre-
parse to set up before calling stty and the command).

(pppd is already set up to call chat itself. I'm sorta surprised slip doesn't
 do that...)


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 04:36:21 1995
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Date: Thu,  2 Feb 95 14:39:37 IST
From: "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" <ugen@netvision.net.il>
Subject: RE: Debugging networking code 
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, Andras Olah <olah@cs.utwente.nl>
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>
>I'd appreciate comments on how this can be done (if it makes sense
>at all).  I'd like to have this facility and there's a student here
>who is willing to work on it.
May be the new thing i writing now can be handy here?
This is some kind of /dev/ip which allows you selectively get
packets from net.
>
>Andras
>

-- 
-=Ugen J.S.Antsilevich=-
NetVision - Israeli Commercial Internet          |  Learning 
E-mail: ugen@NetVision.net.il                    | To Fly. [c]
Phone : +972-4-550330                            |   



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 04:55:26 1995
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Date: 02 Feb 1995 12:50:43 GMT
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In article <3gpv4m$5hf@bambam.cs.city.ac.uk> "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org> writes:

>   I think the question was more one of how it get its mitts on user
>   requests for files that aren't currently mounted.

Amd mounts itself into the fs namespace as an NFS server.  Whenever
the filesystem hits the mountpoint, it sends the request off to the
registered NFS server (amd) asking for a filehandle.  Amd then does
magic and returns the filehandle, or a code like ENOENT.  The magic is
basically: if amd has already got an idea of what to do with the file,
then it can return the filehandle straight away.  If, however, the
amdmap resolves to a filesystem not currently mounted, amd forks off a
new process to do the mount (ensuring the master doesn't get blocked
on remote NFS requests).  It mounts the new filesystem into a
semi-private area of the filesystem (designed in such a way as to
prevent processes from hanging in NFS waits due to the awful but
mostly neccessary implementation of getcwd()) and then returns a
filehandle which is a symlink into the real mountpoint.  To ensure
things work as expected, amd continually sends NFS no-op RPCs (in
effect, pings) to each of the fileservers in use to determine their
"upness".  Based on it's knowledge of whether or not a fileserver is
up, amd can also return ENOENT to a file if, in theory it's available,
but in reality the server is dead.  In this case, it can also use any
alternative fileservers specified in the mountmap.

There you go.



-- 
Web: http://web.cs.city.ac.uk/finger/njw
E-mail: njw@sarc.city.ac.uk (MIME and ATK)
Work Telephone: +44 71 477 8551
Work Fax: +44 71 477 8587

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 05:53:51 1995
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To: "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" <ugen@netvision.net.il>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Debugging networking code 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 1995 14:39:37 +0700
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 14:53:12 +0100
Message-Id: <2802.791733192@utis156.cs.utwente.nl>
From: Andras Olah <olah@cs.utwente.nl>
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On Thu, 02 Feb 1995 14:39:37 +0700, "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" wrote:
> May be the new thing i writing now can be handy here?
> This is some kind of /dev/ip which allows you selectively get
> packets from net.

I use bpf for similar things.  How much does your ip device differ
from bpf?

What I really want is some sort of simple mechanism to put probes
into my code (only during debugging, so it's not normally part of
the kernel) and save the output (e.g., probe id, timestamp, probed
var) for post processing.  I've done this so far in the primitive
way with printf/tcp_debug and syslog but I'd like to have something
more efficient (low overhead, accurate timestamps).

> -- 
> -=Ugen J.S.Antsilevich=-

Andras

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 07:28:03 1995
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
From: davide.tome'@galactica.it (DAVIDE TOME')
Message-ID: <8A2C3AD.000100AE62.uuout@galactica.it>
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 95 15:41:00 +0100
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Hi,


Does exist some X system manager for FreeBSD 2.0 to manage users,groups
aliases and so on ????



Ciao


                                               Davide

    Dott. Davide Tome'
    -------------------------------------------------
    Internet .....: davide.tome'@galactica.it
    Fido..........: 2:331/358 davide tome'
    Galactica BBS.: +39-2-29006058 (24H 24 lines r.a)
    Voce..........: +39-2-29006150
    Fax...........: +39-2-29006153
    -------------------------------------------------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 08:03:27 1995
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In-Reply-To: Message from Paul Richards <paul@isl.cf.ac.uk>  of Thu, 02 Feb 95 03:00:49 GMT.
Reply-To: gj@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it. 
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 95 15:54:02 GMT
From: "gj%pcs.dec.com@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com" <garyj@rks32.pcs.dec.com>
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>> 
>> There would be some fuss, but since Jeremy has kindly offered Xaccel
>> at VGA resolutions, we'd have most folks covered.
>> 

I have one machine which only has a mono Hercules card in it. Any chance that
this would be supported ? Don't mean to throw a monkey-wrench into the works.

Gary J.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 08:24:41 1995
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To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
From: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth)
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
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>Topologically equivalent to:
....
>Except the second approach doesn't require as much local disk.

I agree that they are functionally equivalent. The important step that is
presently missing is that access which requires the consistency checking
before releasing changes to the publicly accessable sources.

----
Richard Wackerbarth
rkw@dataplex.net



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 08:34:55 1995
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From: longyear@netcom.com (Al Longyear)
Message-Id: <199502021637.IAA00170@olympus.tr.sii.com>
Subject: Re: chat(8) improvements for SL/IP dialout.
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 08:37:48 -0800 (PST)
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        longyear@netcom.com
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> > The following changes to chat.c (and the chat.8 man page) add two
> > options:  
> > 	-c <command>
> > 	-s <speed>
> > 
> 
> I'd like to, but your patch for chat.8 is bogus - it's not to -current
> sources!
> 
> Can you re-send me your patch against current, at least for chat.8?  The
> chat.c changes went in without any problem..

I thank you for the patches.

If I may contribute a small couple of items however.

1. I wrote the man page because I could not find any man page which documented
   chat.

2. I added some options to chat to allow it to handle the escape sequences
   used by uucp and some other variations.

3. People suggested the addition of a '-f' option to it to allow for the
   script to be in a file. I was even sent the patch which I tweaked slightly
   and put it.

Those were the limit to my changes.

The chat program, as it is included in the pppd code, will be changed
again to remove the '-l' option. It should never have had the code to
do any locks in it in the first place. A lock mechanism should have
been performed by the called prior to configuring the tty device. That
included changing the transmission rates.

In addition, when you start to consider that other systems do no not
implement locks using lock files then the concept of a lock file seems
extraneous and non-portable. AIX is one such system. Given that AIX
code is in the version 2.2 of the pppd program, and that chat is
distributed with that code, it was decided to remove the lock option
from chat.

(If you still want a lock file approach then there is a very nice
lockfile manager in the procmail code distribution.)

I will pass these changes along to the rest of the pppd porting
group.

In addition, there is also an active discussion about adding regular
expressions to the chat program's matching code.

I will say, what I said to the people who want regular expressions,
that I do not believe that the existing chat program should need to be
augmented beyond what it currently does. (This is a very personal
opinion.)

I am not against people doing that. It is not my program to say one
way or another.

However, if you are going to augment the program then please do one
thing.

   Put your own name as the target for bug reports for the version.
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Even I, who made the last set of changes, submit them to Paul
Mackerras who has the pppd distribution. Perhaps it should be he to
whom you should send the changes. I put my name on the package because
I was the last one to fiddle with it and it was not right that any bug
reports be sent to Karl about my changes.

Just move my name down on the list of people who have changed it in
the past as I did with Karl Fox's name who originally wrote the
package.

If you are going to add these changes to the code, and I would not
stop you even if I could, then you should be aware of the other
changes and coordinate with the other people who are changing the
exact same code file. In this way you won't confuse the issue and
there will only be one version.

I stated that I would not do any changes to chat to the ppp-ports
list. I do not feel that it is a good idea (other than to remove the
lock code). I do not know who is planning to do the regex code. The
person who seems to be advocating it is Philippe-Andre Prindeville
<philipp@res.enst.fr>. You should contact him directly.

It is my personal opinion that chat follows the goals of UNIX; small,
simple, tools which are connect-able to build bigger more complicated
systems. Chat is designed to do one thing. That is to do a uucp
automated script with its stdin/stdout file. It is expected that the
caller will have set the stdin/stdout file to point to the proper
location and configured the files for the proper rate and all other
aspects.

(In short, I am definitely against creeping featurism.)

If you need to go beyond the simple uucp sequence of fixed strings
then you should consider other packages for doing this. The tcl and
expect code is excellent. It is a rather large but very programmable
system for doing scripts. Perl is also good for doing this type of
work.

-- 
Al Longyear             longyear@netcom.com             longyear@sii.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 08:35:36 1995
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Subject: Re: this is silly - really!
To: julian@tfs.com (Julian Elischer)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 9:29:29 MST
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> 
> IBELIEVETHEGREEKSUSEDTOWRITETHISWAYANDIDONTKNOWIFTHEYUSEDTOUSELOWERCASEAND
> UPPERCASEINTHESAMEWAYWEDOORIFTHEYHADANYPUNCTUATION
> 

ANANKE HOUDE MAKOUNTE THEOI (SP?)


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 08:37:47 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:37:30 -0600
To: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
From: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth)
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
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>While I'm at it, I should speak up on behalf of keeping sup access to
>the source tree as is.  None of my machines have enough disk space to
>keep two complete copies of the sources to everything...

As Terry points out, the same thing can be accomplished by the appropriate
use of cvs controls.

I think that the point is that there is not presently any mechanism to
obtain a post-release source that can be compiled. There are far too many
bug-fix changes happening to consider "Release only" adequate.

----
Richard Wackerbarth
rkw@dataplex.net



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 09:03:37 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 03:57:23 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502021657.DAA20356@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: freebsd-bugs@freefall.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com,
        kurto@tiny.mcs.usu.edu, ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com
Subject: Re: drand48 problems persist.
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>Hi, I've seen this problem, in fact I think that I was the first to report it.
>And Bruce Evans sent my a description of what's going in a very short time
>after (for which I grateful.)  The situation is that drand48 isn't in some
>standard or another so it's not really wanted in the header files which
>are trying to be compliant.  So even though you've declared drand48 to
>return a double, libc was built with the assumption that it's an int,
>therefore when drand48 calls erand48 (also 'thought' to be int) some junk
>is left on the fp stack which then blows up later.

But this is fixed now (the header files aren't very standard :-).  The
test program works for me on freefall and at home even if it is linked
to the shared library on the 2.0 cdrom.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 10:00:15 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502021754.AA13753@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 10:54:11 MST
Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, jkh@freefall.cdrom.com,
        roberto@blaise.ibp.fr
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> granularity: each sample hit covers 4 byte(s) for 0.00% of 208.85 seconds
> 
>   %   cumulative   self              self     total           
>  time   seconds   seconds    calls  us/call  us/call  name    
>  41.5     86.635   86.635                             _cputime (842)
>  17.6    123.321   36.686                             _mcount (1514)
>  10.1    144.476   21.155                             _mexitcount (1516)

...

Can you generate a heirarchy encapsulation profile?

The totals on this one add to 100%.  We can't see *where* the _cputime
is being consumed.

It is more informative in a lot of cases to generate count against the
call tree, ie:

	a calls b calls c


610	a
530	b
26	c

Where the actual time spent on code in a is 610-530 or 80.

I suspect that even though a small amount of time shows in copyout, that
the page mapping and checking there is largely to blame for the time cost
(incorrectly) accounted to other routines.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 10:12:03 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502021811.AA21595@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Cc: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>, jdc@crab.xinside.com,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Am I dreaming? 
In-Reply-To: <13339.791702189@time.cdrom.com>
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<<On Wed, 01 Feb 1995 21:16:29 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freebsd.org> said:

> I think the question was more one of how it get its mitts on user
> requests for files that aren't currently mounted.

They /are/ mounted.  amd is an NFS server.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 10:12:36 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
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Subject: Re: chat(8) improvements for SL/IP dialout.
To: peter@bonkers.taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 11:06:31 MST
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> 
> Looks nifty. One point:
> 
> >       t.c_lflag  = 0;
> > +     if(command) {
> > + 	  /* If we're going to execute a command, don't hang-up */
> > + 	  /* the device when we're done. */
> > + 	t.c_cflag &= ~HUPCL;
> > +     }
> >       t.c_cc[VERASE] = t.c_cc[VKILL] = 0;
> 
> Why not? Oh, for SLIP or PPP where the command just establishes a connection
> that's useful, but for a situation where you're running some conventional
> command (like, say, a dialback security mechanism) you want to retain HUPCL.

Or you could do what everyone has done since time immemorial and open
with a sleep the device so that the chat closer is not the final closer.

Then the problem that the patch supposedly fixes will never occur.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 10:22:47 1995
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From: Jeremy Chatfield <jdc@crab.xinside.com>
Message-Id: <199502021822.LAA06686@crab.xinside.com>
Subject: Re: Am I dreaming?
To: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:22:33 +0000 (MST)
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org, wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu,
        hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9502021811.AA21595@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Feb 2, 95 01:11:57 pm
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Garrett Wollman writes:
> 
> <<On Wed, 01 Feb 1995 21:16:29 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freebsd.org> said:
> 
> > I think the question was more one of how it get its mitts on user
> > requests for files that aren't currently mounted.
> 
> They /are/ mounted.  amd is an NFS server.

Intepreting my own question for you...

The resource is not permanently mounted.  When some file attribute is
requested from a currently unmounted resource, the automount daemon
issues the request to mount the resource from a suitable host or
hosts.  While this is happening, the system is not blocked on further
operations.  If considering the remote file system that was under
discussion at the start of this thread, then a mechanism similar to
that of the automount daemon would probably be a useful concept,
since it would overcome the problem posed of the kernel blocking on
the request for a network resource.

The situation with the automount daemon is obviously different if the
resource is currently mounted.  The interesting bit is how it gets
from not-mounted to mounted without everything stopping.  I think
someone else answered that bit.  So, back to the original question,
about filesystems, which was, umm, I forget :-)

Cheers, JeremyC.
-- 
Jeremy Chatfield, +1(303)470-5302, FAX:+1(303)470-5513, email:jdc@xinside.com
        X Inside Inc, P O Box 10774, Golden, CO 80401-0610, USA.
   Commercial X Server - for more information please try these services
http://www.xinside.com            info@xinside.com            ftp.xinside.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 10:31:08 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502021830.AA21645@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" <ugen@netvision.net.il>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, Andras Olah <olah@cs.utwente.nl>
Subject: RE: Debugging networking code 
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<<On Thu,  2 Feb 95 14:39:37 IST, "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" <ugen@netvision.net.il> said:

> May be the new thing i writing now can be handy here?
> This is some kind of /dev/ip which allows you selectively get
> packets from net.

There is no reason to duplicate this functionality which is already
efficiently implemented by BPF.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 10:37:28 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502021836.AA21648@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth)
Cc: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
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<<On Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:37:30 -0600, rkw@dataplex.net (Richard Wackerbarth) said:

>> While I'm at it, I should speak up on behalf of keeping sup access to
>> the source tree as is.  None of my machines have enough disk space to
>> keep two complete copies of the sources to everything...

> As Terry points out, the same thing can be accomplished by the appropriate
> use of cvs controls.

I SAID, I DON't HAVE ENOUGH DISK SPACE TO KEEP TWO COMPLETE COPIES OF
THE SOURCES TO EVERYTHING!

> I think that the point is that there is not presently any mechanism to
> obtain a post-release source that can be compiled. There are far too many
> bug-fix changes happening to consider "Release only" adequate.

I disagree.  I don't want to see us getting bogged down in the
software maintenance business.  If there's really a demand for it,
then someone should be able to make a business of pulling over
selected bug-fixes for previous releases.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 10:43:31 1995
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Date: Thu,  2 Feb 95 20:45:28 IST
From: "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" <ugen@netvision.net.il>
Subject: RE: Debugging networking code 
To: "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" <ugen@netvision.net.il>,
        Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
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><<On Thu,  2 Feb 95 14:39:37 IST, "Ugen J.S.Antsilevich" <ugen@netvision.net.il> 
said:
>
>> May be the new thing i writing now can be handy here?
>> This is some kind of /dev/ip which allows you selectively get
>> packets from net.
>
>There is no reason to duplicate this functionality which is already
>efficiently implemented by BPF.
Well..this intended to work in more simple and restricted way on the one hand
and help in other firewall/accounting functionalities on the other..and it actually
uses the existing code...well..for the programmer this would be much more nice than 
bpf.Besides it doesn't need specific support on interface level...
>
>-GAWollman
>
>--
>Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
>wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
>Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
>MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant
>

-- 
-=Ugen J.S.Antsilevich=-
NetVision - Israeli Commercial Internet          |  Learning 
E-mail: ugen@NetVision.net.il                    | To Fly. [c]
Phone : +972-4-550330                            |   



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 10:49:58 1995
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From: kurto@tiny.mcs.usu.edu (Kurt Olsen)
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To: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-bugs@freefall.cdrom.com,
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Subject: Re: drand48 problems persist.
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>But this is fixed now (the header files aren't very standard :-).  The
>test program works for me on freefall and at home even if it is linked
>to the shared library on the 2.0 cdrom.

Cool.  I supposed I'll have to grab -current (when I get my machine back from
the shop) and upgrade to there.  The 2.0 I installed doesn't work with drand48,
but if it's fixed now then that's fine.

Thanks for all your help and work on FreeBSD!

Kurt Olsen
kurto@tiny.mcs.usu.edu

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 11:17:54 1995
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From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502021913.GAA22022@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: bde@zeta.org.au, terry@cs.weber.edu
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
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>> granularity: each sample hit covers 4 byte(s) for 0.00% of 208.85 seconds
>> 
>>   %   cumulative   self              self     total           
>>  time   seconds   seconds    calls  us/call  us/call  name    
>>  41.5     86.635   86.635                             _cputime (842)
>>  17.6    123.321   36.686                             _mcount (1514)
>>  10.1    144.476   21.155                             _mexitcount (1516)

>...

>Can you generate a heirarchy encapsulation profile?

I can only generate standard gprof output and edit it a bit.  200K of
output is too much to mail.

>The totals on this one add to 100%.  We can't see *where* the _cputime
>is being consumed.

_cputime is part of the profiling overhead.  It reads the time from the
8254 clock.  This takes too long.  The above numbers show that my
profiling takes more than 69.2/17.6 times as long as ordinary profiling,
mainly due to the slow interface to the clock.  The advantages of my
profiling is that it is accurate for short tests and not affected by
interrupt latency.

>I suspect that even though a small amount of time shows in copyout, that
>the page mapping and checking there is largely to blame for the time cost
>(incorrectly) accounted to other routines.

Copying data might bust the cache and slow everything down, but copying
stat buffers won't - the user buffer is at a fixed address and the
kernel buffer is probably in the cache since it is initialized just
before copyout'ing.  The user page containing the buffer is even more
likely to be mapped in all the time than the user buffer is in the
cache, and there is no software checking in copyout on 486's.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 11:49:46 1995
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Message-Id: <199502021844.LAA06770@crab.xinside.com>
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
To: gj@FreeBSD.org
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:44:29 +0000 (MST)
Cc: jkh%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com,
        hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com
In-Reply-To: <m0ra3r9-0005M7C@rks32.pcs.dec.com> from "gj%pcs.dec.com@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com" at Feb 2, 95 03:54:02 pm
Organization: X Inside Inc, P O Box 10774, Golden, CO 80401-0610, USA.
Phone: +1(303)470-5302
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gj%pcs.dec.com@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com writes:
> 
> >> 
> >> There would be some fuss, but since Jeremy has kindly offered Xaccel
> >> at VGA resolutions, we'd have most folks covered.
> >> 
> 
> I have one machine which only has a mono Hercules card in it. Any chance that
> this would be supported ? Don't mean to throw a monkey-wrench into the works.

How much will you pay?   :-)

We've offered a commercial, supported, QA-tested, Beta program
thrashed, professional, world class Server for free, explicitly 
for VGA chipsets.  If you think that you can make a better offer, you
might want to send us your resume.  We're always on the lookout for
world class talent.

Cheers, JeremyC.
-- 
Jeremy Chatfield, +1(303)470-5302, FAX:+1(303)470-5513, email:jdc@xinside.com
        X Inside Inc, P O Box 10774, Golden, CO 80401-0610, USA.
   Commercial X Server - for more information please try these services
http://www.xinside.com            info@xinside.com            ftp.xinside.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 13:18:35 1995
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199502012327.AAA00895@yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: using Exabytes 8200 with FreeBSD: the 'st' params....
To: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers list)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 00:27:06 +1596657 (MET)
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You Exabyte users out there: what st 'dens' should I use to get
2Gb on a 2Gig Exabyte cartridge? I just tried dd with obs=10240 but
that results in approx 500Mb before I get:

st1(aha0:5:0): medium error, info = 13 (decimal)

Since I have no docs on the 8200 at all, I dunno what this means..

Info appreciated
_     __________________________________________________________________________
 |   / o / /  _   Wilko Bulte             email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl
 |/|/ / / /( (_)  Private FreeBSD site  - Arnhem - The Netherlands
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 13:28:02 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 22:27:46 +0100 (MET)
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Okay, if there are no complaints, I'm gonna implement
kern.maxfilesperproc

If people do want other such limits implemented, let them shout and I'll
try doing that as well.

-Guido

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 13:28:05 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502022122.AA14716@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Source Tree Ettiquite (was Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 14:22:12 MST
Cc: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
In-Reply-To: <9502021836.AA21648@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Feb 2, 95 01:36:49 pm
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Must I pretend to the title of 'Source Tree Emily Post'?

OK, for the benefit of everyone, I will play the source tree asshole.
Every successful project involving more than one developer needs a
source tree asshole.  Since it is a full time job, I will only pretend
to do the job for the duration of this posting.  Other people can step
into the shoes as exceptions crop up.  Managing by exception rather
than by crisis is the way things should be taken care of anyway.


Let it be first noted that I generally agree with Garrett's decisions
and have faith in his inherent common sense and deep understanding of
"the way things ought to be".

This is, more than anything else, a trieste on source tree ettiquite
in a distributed developement environment, and what I think is *a*
right way to do it.  Before you rip my lungs out, note that "*a* way"
is intentionally not written as "*the* way".  If you attack me on this
point, I will point at this paragraph and solicity your suggestions;
you had better have *a* right way of your own ready.  The status quo
is currently inadequate.  It also results in class distinctions of
the type of which Linux users accuse BSD.



> > As Terry points out, the same thing can be accomplished by the appropriate
> > use of cvs controls.
> 
> I SAID, I DON't HAVE ENOUGH DISK SPACE TO KEEP TWO COMPLETE COPIES OF
> THE SOURCES TO EVERYTHING!

Neither do I, which is why I suggested the precise process that I did
instead of a cascade of multiple snapshots.

The multiple snapshot approach (which I will call "the bogus approach")
requires extracting a full copy of the source tree and attempting to build
it.  Meanwhile, the previous successfully built snapshot is still on line.

So you have a CVS tree, a snapshot and a snapshot.

During the copy phase (assuming the build and the distribution snapshots
aren't on the same machine, which makes sense), this is pushed up by yet
another snapshot, if only for a short period of time.


On the other hand, the locking I proposed is *advisory*.

What does that mean for multiple reader/multiple writer locking?

It means that you can check in to the tree without acquiring a writer lock.

When you break the world, you get a bunch of email calling you a dickhead.

It means that you can check out of the tree without acquiring a reader lock.

When you do, and your world breaks and you complain, you get a bunch of
email calling you an idiot.


Long term reader/writer locking means you (the developer) don't even need
enough disk space for ONE COMPLETE COPY OF THE SOURCES TO EVERYTHING.  With
a writer lock, you may check in over NFS, as long as you are timesynced
and hold the lock for the duration of the checkin.

AMAZINGLY, THIS RESULTS IN A LOT MORE PEOPLE BEING IN A POSITION WHERE
THEY CAN CONTRIBUTE TO THE PROJECT, WHAT WITH THEM NOT NEEDING A FULL
SOURCE TREE AND ALL.


If you conflict with someone else (multiple writers being allowed), you
will have to resolve it between you.  You two should be coordinating
the changes both of you are making to stdio.h anyway, unless you plan
on falling prey to the adage that "too many cooks spoil the meal".


Meanwhile, since the checkout for the snapshot always acquires a reader
lock before doing the checkout, only a dickhead can cause the tree state
to be inconsistant.


The net effect of this is to simply prevent the snapshot process from
being an idiot by accident.  For the snapshot to be an idiot requires
a dickhead to interact with the tree.  And then it isn't snapshots fault.


Does this require you to build the world before you can safely let go of
a writer lock without being a dickhead?

No.  It requires that your dependencies in your makefiles *work* so you
limit the scope of your rebuild automatically.

It requires that you check for conflicts with other writers when checking
in before you release your writer lock.


People are currently working on getting the depndencies working all the
way; we are now very close.  This is why the idea should again be
considered.



What if I change a file that a *lot* of things depend on?

I should have to rebuild a lot of things.  People should be required to
think about changes that impact large amounts of code proportional to the
amount of code they are affecting.  If this is annoying, you are probably
crapping in the tree occasionally because testing your code isn't as
exciting as writing it, and so you are pushing that job off onto other
people who are supping the crap and notifying you posthumously.  Or you
are a god.  You are probably not a god.


"AHA!", You exclaim, "That still leave the CVS tree, the snapshot, and
the previous snapshot, so you haven't reduced space requirements at all!".

You think you have fooled me.  You have not.  This usage protocol can just
as easily apply to SUP and other snapshot "consumers".  They can be locked
out during the snapshotting process.  "Request deferred/denied.  Use the
lock override option if you need the code now and are willing to take it
in an inconsistant state".


Thus we are left with CVS + 1 snapshot, rather than CVS + 2(3) snapshots.


Since for releases, the tree is tagged and branched anyway, there are no
impacts on release engineering (except an extra 1(2) snapshots worth of
disk space to do the engineering in).



Do I think this will result in a buildable source tree?

Yes, most of the time.  There will be drug interactions, where apparently
unrelated changes screw with each other.  Some of these will even be
impossible to prevent using corrections to the broken dependency lists
that resulted in the problem.  But these will be rare, and they will get
rarer as the dependency lists are corrected on a per occurance basis.


Does "buildable" mean "runnable"?

No.  I am not an idiot.  "Buildable" means "buildable", nothing more.
Going from "buildable" to "runnable" is called release engineering.
This posting is about source tree ettiquite.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 14:25:19 1995
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From: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Message-Id: <9502022224.AA17129@blaise.ibp.fr>
Subject: Re: using Exabytes 8200 with FreeBSD: the 'st' params....
To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 23:24:34 +0100 (MET)
Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502012327.AAA00895@yedi.iaf.nl> from "Wilko Bulte" at Feb 2, 95 00:27:06 am
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> You Exabyte users out there: what st 'dens' should I use to get
> 2Gb on a 2Gig Exabyte cartridge? I just tried dd with obs=10240 but
> that results in approx 500Mb before I get:

When using dump(8) use the B option :

dump 0ufbB /dev/nrst1 64 1300000

(this for a 1.3 GB DAT drive).
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT     -=- The daemon is FREE! -=-     roberto@FreeBSD.ORG
   FreeBSD keltia 2.1.0-Development #18: Thu Jan 26 22:22:16 MET 1995

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 14:28:34 1995
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To: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Feb 95 16:47:16 +1100."
             <199502020547.QAA02136@godzilla.zeta.org.au> 
From: David Greenman <davidg@Root.COM>
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>>In effect, you are testing system call + copyout time rather than system
>>call + fetch + copyout time.
>
>Nope.  The syscall + copyout time are relatively small.  The leaf
>routines that take the longest time are bcmp() (presumably for caching
>- 48 bcmp's per stat(), and our kernel bcmp() is the slow C version!)
>and user() (this is for all user time; presumably it's mostly for
>printf).

   The bcmp() is implemented as assembly in support.s. Why do think it is the
slow C version?

-DG

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 14:40:57 1995
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From: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Message-Id: <9502022240.AA17211@blaise.ibp.fr>
Subject: Re: limits (again)
To: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 23:40:14 +0100 (MET)
Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502022127.WAA17861@gvr.win.tue.nl> from "Guido van Rooij" at Feb 2, 95 10:27:46 pm
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> Okay, if there are no complaints, I'm gonna implement
> kern.maxfilesperproc
> 
> If people do want other such limits implemented, let them shout and I'll
> try doing that as well.

Not really a limit but a big plus in security :

net.inet.ip.sourceroute

with 0 (which should be the default) you refuse source-routed packets.
We probably should disable only loose source-routing but I don't know
the exact differences between the two.

-- 
Ollivier ROBERT     -=- The daemon is FREE! -=-     roberto@FreeBSD.ORG
   FreeBSD keltia 2.1.0-Development #18: Thu Jan 26 22:22:16 MET 1995

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 14:42:08 1995
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To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: I'm having a very perplexing problem
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 17:41:30 EST
From: Kaleb Keithley <kaleb@x.org>
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In the process of juggling some memory between systems I managed to
kill the motherboard in my FreeBSD (1.1.5.1) system. After replacing 
the motherboard began to get some programs, that never had a problem 
before, now segv apparently at random, e.g. /bin/sh, /sbin/fsck, 
and gcc's cc1. 

What's strange is that fsck would check /dev/rswd0a fine, but segv
on /dev/rswd0e (my /usr partition). More recently I went to rebuild
my kernel, and gcc runs fine, but cc1 segvs repeatedly when it tries
to compile rtsock.c.

I was able to boot single user, remount my root partition, and replace
/bin/sh and /sbin/fsck with the versions from the kernel or cpio
install diskette. The replacements don't dump core. (And I know that
they're not the same as the "real" /bin/sh and /sbin/fsck.) Replacing 
gcc's cc1 is more problematic only because I had installed 2.6.3 at one 
point. I can of course revert to the 2.5.8 files that were originally 
installed.

One thought I had was that I had 70ns RAM in one bank and 100ns RAM
in the second bank. (I used to have 16 meg, but this new board only has 
room for 8 SIMMs. :-() Thinking that this might somehow be the cause, 
I put 100ns RAM in all the slots. This was after discovering /bin/sh 
and /sbin/fsck were "bad" but before discovering the problem with cc1, 
so I'm inclined to believe that it's not the memory speed difference
that is what's causing the problem.

Both boards are apparently from the same Taiwan motherboard company; same 
logo on the boxes anyway. The old board was a five year old ISA with an 
OPTI chipset and AMI BIOS. The new board is an ISA-VLB with a chipset I 
don't remember and Award BIOS. The old board had the ability to set memory 
wait states in the CMOS setup -- the new board does not.

This "feels" like a memory problem, but I don't know why, for instance,
one version of fsck would successfully fsck rwd0a but dump core on rwd0e,
when it had worked fine before changing the motherboard; while another
version of fsck on the new motherboard works fine on both partitions.

Here's how my disk is partitioned:

6 partitions:
#        size   offset    fstype   [fsize bsize   cpg]
  a:    30240   164304    4.2BSD      512  4096    16   # (Cyl.  163 - 192)
  b:    68544   194544      swap                        # (Cyl.  193 - 260)
  c:   506016   164304    unused        0     0         # (Cyl.  163 - 664)
  d:   671328        0    unused        0     0         # (Cyl.    0 - 665)
  e:   387072   263088    4.2BSD      512  4096    16   # (Cyl.  261 - 644)
  f:    20160   650160    4.2BSD      512  4096    16   # (Cyl.  645 - 664)

Any ideas?

--

Kaleb KEITHLEY

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 14:51:48 1995
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From: "matthew c. mead" <mmead@goof.com>
Message-Id: <199502022251.RAA02255@goof.com>
Subject: AiR SH ISA/VLB 486DX2/66 30 pin simm motherboard
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:51:35 -0500 (EST)
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    Does anyone have this motherboard?  Does it cache on the entire RAM region,
or does it only cache on the first 16 megabytes?  I found one at a really good
price, and would like to order it tomorrow if anyone knows anything about it.
Lemme know!  Thanks!


-matt

-- 
Matthew C. Mead  -> Virginia Tech Center for Transportation Research -
                 -> Multiple Platform System and Network Administration
Work Related     -> mmead@ctr.vt.edu    |     mmead@goof.com <-     All Other
---- -------            WWW -> http://www.goof.com/~mmead           --- -----

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 14:53:22 1995
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From: osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen)
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To: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Cc: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij), FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: limits (again)
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	<9502022240.AA17211@blaise.ibp.fr>
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>>>>> "Ollivier" == Ollivier ROBERT <roberto@blaise.ibp.fr> writes:

    >> Okay, if there are no complaints, I'm gonna implement
    >> kern.maxfilesperproc


Heck, if it's wish-time, I'd love to see limits on # of processes/user,
limits on pty vs tty access, time-of-day-limits, sheesh, a whole bunch of 'em.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 15:08:35 1995
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From: sos@login.dknet.dk (S|ren Schmidt)
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Subject: Re: I'm having a very perplexing problem
To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb Keithley)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 0:03:18 MET
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It does sound very much like a memory problem, besides 100ns RAM
is way to slow for a modern machine, 70na is more like it. It
could also suggest you are having bad cache RAM chips, or at
least some that are not fast enough.


> In the process of juggling some memory between systems I managed to
> kill the motherboard in my FreeBSD (1.1.5.1) system. After replacing 
> the motherboard began to get some programs, that never had a problem 
> before, now segv apparently at random, e.g. /bin/sh, /sbin/fsck, 
> and gcc's cc1. 
> 
> What's strange is that fsck would check /dev/rswd0a fine, but segv
> on /dev/rswd0e (my /usr partition). More recently I went to rebuild
> my kernel, and gcc runs fine, but cc1 segvs repeatedly when it tries
> to compile rtsock.c.
> 
> I was able to boot single user, remount my root partition, and replace
> /bin/sh and /sbin/fsck with the versions from the kernel or cpio
> install diskette. The replacements don't dump core. (And I know that
> they're not the same as the "real" /bin/sh and /sbin/fsck.) Replacing 
> gcc's cc1 is more problematic only because I had installed 2.6.3 at one 
> point. I can of course revert to the 2.5.8 files that were originally 
> installed.
> 
> One thought I had was that I had 70ns RAM in one bank and 100ns RAM
> in the second bank. (I used to have 16 meg, but this new board only has 
> room for 8 SIMMs. :-() Thinking that this might somehow be the cause, 
> I put 100ns RAM in all the slots. This was after discovering /bin/sh 
> and /sbin/fsck were "bad" but before discovering the problem with cc1, 
> so I'm inclined to believe that it's not the memory speed difference
> that is what's causing the problem.
> 
> Both boards are apparently from the same Taiwan motherboard company; same 
> logo on the boxes anyway. The old board was a five year old ISA with an 
> OPTI chipset and AMI BIOS. The new board is an ISA-VLB with a chipset I 
> don't remember and Award BIOS. The old board had the ability to set memory 
> wait states in the CMOS setup -- the new board does not.
> 
> This "feels" like a memory problem, but I don't know why, for instance,
> one version of fsck would successfully fsck rwd0a but dump core on rwd0e,
> when it had worked fine before changing the motherboard; while another
> version of fsck on the new motherboard works fine on both partitions.
> 
> Here's how my disk is partitioned:
> 
> 6 partitions:
> #        size   offset    fstype   [fsize bsize   cpg]
>   a:    30240   164304    4.2BSD      512  4096    16   # (Cyl.  163 - 192)
>   b:    68544   194544      swap                        # (Cyl.  193 - 260)
>   c:   506016   164304    unused        0     0         # (Cyl.  163 - 664)
>   d:   671328        0    unused        0     0         # (Cyl.    0 - 665)
>   e:   387072   263088    4.2BSD      512  4096    16   # (Cyl.  261 - 644)
>   f:    20160   650160    4.2BSD      512  4096    16   # (Cyl.  645 - 664)
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> --
> 
> Kaleb KEITHLEY
> 


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Soren Schmidt  (sos@FreeBSD.org | sos@login.dknet.dk)  FreeBSD Core Team
               So much code to hack -- so little time
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 15:22:43 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502022322.AA22056@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Source Tree Ettiquite (was Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
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<<On Thu, 2 Feb 95 14:22:12 MST, terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) said:

> Thus we are left with CVS + 1 snapshot, rather than CVS + 2(3) snapshots.

Which is still more  disk than I have available to me for this
purpose.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 15:24:37 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502022324.AA22066@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT)
Cc: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij), FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: limits (again)
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<<On Thu, 2 Feb 1995 23:40:14 +0100 (MET), roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT) said:

> with 0 (which should be the default) you refuse source-routed packets.
> We probably should disable only loose source-routing but I don't know
> the exact differences between the two.

Strict source-routing means that each node listed must be exactly one
hop away from its predecessor.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 15:27:14 1995
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Subject: Re: Source Tree Ettiquite (was Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
To: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:27:03 -0800 (PST)
Cc: terry@cs.weber.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.org
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> <<On Thu, 2 Feb 95 14:22:12 MST, terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) said:
> 
> > Thus we are left with CVS + 1 snapshot, rather than CVS + 2(3) snapshots.
> 
> Which is still more  disk than I have available to me for this
> purpose.

Well, get some more then :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 15:39:39 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
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Subject: Re: Source Tree Ettiquite (was Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
To: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 16:33:39 MST
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <9502022322.AA22056@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Feb 2, 95 06:22:34 pm
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> 
> <<On Thu, 2 Feb 95 14:22:12 MST, terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) said:
> 
> > Thus we are left with CVS + 1 snapshot, rather than CVS + 2(3) snapshots.
> 
> Which is still more  disk than I have available to me for this
> purpose.

This is for the distribution site, and the site where the release
engineering is done (if different).

Programmers working on pieces of the whole only check out the parts
they are going to work on from a remotely accessed tree.

How do you handle this now?

You either have the whole tree locally or you do not.  In which case the
partial tree checkout techniques still apply.

Checking things into a source repository makes no sense unless you
expect a conflict with someone else, or expect to need to share a common
source base with someone else.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 15:44:09 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502022344.AA22127@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Cc: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman), hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Source Tree Ettiquite (was Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
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<<On Thu, 2 Feb 95 16:33:39 MST, terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) said:

> Programmers working on pieces of the whole only check out the parts
> they are going to work on from a remotely accessed tree.

> How do you handle this now?

I sup the entire source tree on my machine, implement and test my
changes, and commit them on freefall.  I NEED to have the entire
source tree on my box anyway, so I might as well make sure it's
up-to-date.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 15:45:08 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502022344.AA22142@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen)
Cc: roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT),
        guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij),
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Subject: Re: limits (again)
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<<On Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:53:00 -0700, osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen) said:

> Heck, if it's wish-time, I'd love to see limits on # of processes/user,
> limits on pty vs tty access, time-of-day-limits, sheesh, a whole bunch of 'em.

Only the first of these is any business of the kernel's.  As for the
rest, that's what the `pw_class' hook in the password database is
for.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 15:53:57 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
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Subject: Re: Source Tree Ettiquite (was Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
To: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman)
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 16:47:59 MST
Cc: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.org
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> > Programmers working on pieces of the whole only check out the parts
> > they are going to work on from a remotely accessed tree.
> 
> > How do you handle this now?
> 
> I sup the entire source tree on my machine, implement and test my
> changes, and commit them on freefall.  I NEED to have the entire
> source tree on my box anyway, so I might as well make sure it's
> up-to-date.

Wouldn't you prefer that when the SUP got done, you could successfully
compile intead of dealing with someone elses ugly baby?

It would seem to me that you'd be the strongest advocate *for* setting
up what can and can't go into the CVS tree, and how it can be done to
ensure the SUP and snapshot sources (probably the same tree) were
usable for a developer.

I can see where people would not be able to afford the space for a copy
of the CVS tree (it *ought* to be "CVS tree_s_").  I was *never*, *ever*
advocating that, or that running CTM should be a requirement!


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 15:57:15 1995
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From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <9502022357.AA22175@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Cc: wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman), hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Source Tree Ettiquite (was Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.)
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<<On Thu, 2 Feb 95 16:47:59 MST, terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) said:

> Wouldn't you prefer that when the SUP got done, you could successfully
> compile intead of dealing with someone elses ugly baby?

It's as much my ugly baby as anyone else's, and I'm quite capable of
applying a swat to the its seat as necessary.  I only re-compile the
world once every two or three weeks, and it's easy enough for me to
determine from the commit mail when is a good time to do so.

> It would seem to me that you'd be the strongest advocate *for* setting
> up what can and can't go into the CVS tree, and how it can be done to
> ensure the SUP and snapshot sources (probably the same tree) were
> usable for a developer.

They ARE usable for a developer.  There *is* *nothing* *wrong*.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 16:02:45 1995
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From: osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen)
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To: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
Cc: osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen),
        roberto@blaise.ibp.fr (Ollivier ROBERT),
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Subject: Re: limits (again)
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>>>>> "Garrett" == Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> writes:

    Garrett> <<On Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:53:00 -0700,
    Garrett> osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen) said:
    >> Heck, if it's wish-time, I'd love to see limits on # of
    >> processes/user, limits on pty vs tty access,
    >> time-of-day-limits, sheesh, a whole bunch of 'em.

    Garrett> Only the first of these is any business of the kernel's.
    Garrett> As for the rest, that's what the `pw_class' hook in the
    Garrett> password database is for.


Well, the stuff in the pwdb seems useful at logon, it looks harder to
make use of it constantly.  ie, it's fine if they login before 5pm, but
when 5pm rolls around, I want their jobs killed, and them booted.  That
looks easier in the kernel as opposed to login and some daemon.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 16:15:15 1995
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Subject: Re: I'm having a very perplexing problem 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 03 Feb 1995 00:03:18 +0700."
             <9502022303.AA12315@login.dknet.dk> 
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 19:14:38 EST
From: Kaleb Keithley <kaleb@x.org>
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>It does sound very much like a memory problem, besides 100ns RAM
>is way to slow for a modern machine, 70na is more like it. It
>could also suggest you are having bad cache RAM chips, or at
>least some that are not fast enough.

I should have also said that it's a 25mhz CPU, for which 100ns should
be adequate. At least it was (with 0 wait states) in the old motherboard.

The new motherboard has 15ns cache, the old had 35ns cache. I'll try
turning off the cache and see if that makes a diff.

--

Kaleb

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 16:16:51 1995
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To: osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen)
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Subject: Re: limits (again)
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<<On Thu, 2 Feb 1995 17:02:29 -0700, osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu (Jaye Mathisen) said:

> Well, the stuff in the pwdb seems useful at logon, it looks harder to
> make use of it constantly.  ie, it's fine if they login before 5pm, but
> when 5pm rolls around, I want their jobs killed, and them booted.  That
> looks easier in the kernel as opposed to login and some daemon.

Use cron(8).

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman   | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... 
wollman@lcs.mit.edu  | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence.  We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish.  - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant

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Message-Id: <ojAM8=6SMV1b06t_oB@transarc.com>
Date: Thu,  2 Feb 1995 20:08:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat_Barron@transarc.com
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
In-Reply-To: <9502012135.AA19717@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <29186.791616495@time.cdrom.com>
	<199502010755.XAA19507@ref.tfs.com>
	<9502012135.AA19717@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
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Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> writes:
> <<On Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:55:46 -0800 (PST), Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com\
> > said:
> 
> > But for src-current:
> > It is stupid.  Look at it:  We run sup-scan every 8 hours, then
> > we download individual sets of files to each user based on timestamps.
> > That's not particular smart.  We have probably all been hit by the
> > zero byte file with the right timestamp havn't we ?
> 
> It works great for me, and I've never had any problems with it that
> weren't my fault.  As I expressed in another message, I think the
> problem is that there are simply too many people running -current, who
> aren't prepared to deal with bleeding-edge phenomena.

I must agree with this.  I've never had a problem with SUP that wasn't
actually a problem with some underlying system component.  (Of course,
I could be prejudiced, since I came from CMU and we used SUP for
everything, so maybe I'm just accustomed to its quirks.....)

As far as using SUP (or whatever) for -current, I'm really thankful
that I have a mechanism like SUP to keep my source tree up to date; I
don't like the idea of using a mechanism that only sends changes,
since that stops me from being able to tweak my source tree between
SUPs (like, if "make world" fails for some reason, and I want to fix
it, but I expect there will be a "real" fix the next time I SUP) -
something like CTM would prevent me from doing this, as I understand
it.

I certainly understand that the -current sources are a "work in
progress" and the latest SUP of -current can't necessarily be
considered as a "snapshot" - that the entire tree doesn't necessarily
build at any given time.  When I find problems I report them (just in
case the problem is a genuine new bug, and not something that someone
is in the middle of working on, or already knows about), sometimes I
even fix them and send in fixes.... :-)  Anyone who's not capable of
and/or prepared to deal with the oddities that can be introduced by
running the Release Du Jour should not be messing with -current.

--Pat.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 17:22:39 1995
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Date: Thu,  2 Feb 1995 20:22:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat_Barron@transarc.com
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: FreeBSD with Bustec BT-542B SCSI interface
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Has anyone successfully gotten FreeBSD working with a Bustec BT-542B
(Adaptec AHA-1542B clone) SCSI adapter?  It works with DOS just fine,
but FreeBSD has problems with it - the "aha" driver recognizes the
board, but something chokes as its autoconfiguring (after the
SCSI_DELAY interval), and the kernel panics (don't have the exact
panic message here, sorry, but I seem to recall that it's a "page not
present" sort of thing).

I have had contact with people who have said "yeah, I've seen that
too", but no one has come forward and told me that they had gotten
this to work.....

I've asked about this before, but I have been trying to get this
machine running FreeBSD again lately, so I thought that enough new
people might have subscribed to this list that it might be useful to
ask again.....

--Pat.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 17:53:46 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:39:26 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@kryten.atinc.com>
Subject: Re: limits (again)
To: Jaye Mathisen <osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu>
cc: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>,
        Jaye Mathisen <osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu>,
        Ollivier ROBERT <roberto@blaise.ibp.fr>,
        Guido van Rooij <guido@gvr.win.tue.nl>,
        FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <9502030002.AA17625@schizo.coe.montana.edu>
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On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Jaye Mathisen wrote:

> Well, the stuff in the pwdb seems useful at logon, it looks harder to
> make use of it constantly.  ie, it's fine if they login before 5pm, but
> when 5pm rolls around, I want their jobs killed, and them booted.  That
> looks easier in the kernel as opposed to login and some daemon.

	take a look at ftp://kryten.atinc.com/pub/unix/untamo3.gz

	it will log people off after a given period of inactivity.  it 
runs as a daemon.  adding code to logout users after 5pm should be trivial.

here's the README

Untamo is a locally developed daemon which periodically wakes up and
logs off idle terminals; it also can deal with multiply-logged in
users.  It is configurable without recompilation, and features tunable
parameters such as maximum allowed idle time, maximum allowable
multiple logins, exemption lists, and so on.  (Note: session limits
do not work at the moment.)

We use this program to ensure availability of one of our scarcer
resources: terminals.  Others may find it useful for different reasons;
preventing users from leaving a terminal logged-in and unattended
for hours is probably a reasonable security measure.

The original posting caused a deluge of mail, as the sources contained
references to local include files.  This has been fixed by #ifdef'ing
the code which applies only locally.  This version has been successfully
compiled on a Sequent Balance 21000 running Dynix v2.0.6, a CCI 6/32
running 4.3bsd, a DEC VAX-8600 running 4.3bsd, a Gould PowerNode 9080
Running UTX-32 Release 1.3, and and a VAX-11/780 running 4.2bsd.

Please address correspondence concerning untamo to "doc" on this machine;
the original author has left Purdue, but Craig Norborg (aka "doc") is
reasonably familiar with the program.
-- 
Rich Kulawiec, pucc-j!rsk, rsk@j.cc.purdue.edu, rsk@purdue-asc.arpa



Jonathan M. Bresler  jmb@kryten.atinc.com	| Analysis & Technology, Inc.  
						| 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy
play go.					| Arlington, VA 22202
ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life	| 703-418-2800 x346


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 18:02:22 1995
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To: Pat_Barron@transarc.com
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD with Bustec BT-542B SCSI interface 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Feb 95 20:22:01 EST."
             <UjAMIt_SMV1bM6tARP@transarc.com> 
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 18:02:07 -0800
Message-ID: <5436.791776927@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

> Has anyone successfully gotten FreeBSD working with a Bustec BT-542B
> (Adaptec AHA-1542B clone) SCSI adapter?  It works with DOS just fine,

I assume this thing upchucks in -current?

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 18:25:33 1995
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Date: Thu,  2 Feb 1995 21:23:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat_Barron@transarc.com
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD with Bustec BT-542B SCSI interface
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <5436.791776927@time.cdrom.com>
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"Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freebsd.org> writes:
> > Has anyone successfully gotten FreeBSD working with a Bustec BT-542B
> > (Adaptec AHA-1542B clone) SCSI adapter?  It works with DOS just fine,
> 
> I assume this thing upchucks in -current?

Yeah - at least, in 2.x, it panics - in 1.1, it just caused the
machine to spontaneously reboot when the autoconfig touched the
BT-542B.

--Pat.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 18:40:20 1995
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To: announce
cc: hackers
Subject: At last!  February 2nd snapshot now available from ftp.freebsd.org
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 18:33:43 -0800
Message-ID: <2788.791778823@freefall.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freefall.cdrom.com>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.0-950202-SNAP/

and

ftp://freefall.cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/2.0-950202-SNAP/


What's new?  Lots!

o Merged VM/Buffer cache much improved!  General stability
  now approaching 2.1 quality levels.
o Lots more bug fixes
o Syscons now supports scrollback - use scroll lock and arrow/travel
  keys to move around in your scroll-back buffer.
o NIS (YP) support for FreeBSD as server and client.
o First cut at on-demand ppp dialing.  Docs still in Japanese, but
  we're working on that! ;-)  See /usr/bin/ppp for more details.
o IP Firewall code much improved
o AHA294x controller support now added
o Sony CDU33a CDROM drive support added
o Source distribution now split into logical pieces
o Install much improved - still not what will be in 2.1, but a lot
  easier to use nonetheless.

Also, if anyone could also give the repacked XFree86 3.1 a whirl (in
the 950202 snapshot directory) and tell me how it worked I'd
appreciate it!  I cloned the work I'd done for the new 3.1.1 XFree86
install back into 3.1.  It's in:

	ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.0-950202-SNAP/XFree86-3.1/

Thanks!  And please let me know how it goes for you with this snapshot!

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 18:44:17 1995
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@jsdinc.root.com>
Message-Id: <199502030047.TAA00175@jsdinc.root.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD with Bustec BT-542B SCSI interface
To: freefall.cdrom.com!owner-freebsd-hackers@implode.root.com
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:46:59 -0500 (EST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <UjAMIt_SMV1bM6tARP@transarc.com> from "owner-freebsd-hackers@implode.root.com" at Feb 2, 95 08:22:01 pm
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> 
> Has anyone successfully gotten FreeBSD working with a Bustec BT-542B
> (Adaptec AHA-1542B clone) SCSI adapter?  It works with DOS just fine,
> but FreeBSD has problems with it - the "aha" driver recognizes the
>
Try using the bt driver.  The aha driver does not work well for
me on a BT-545S either.

John
dyson@root.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 18:53:20 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 01:13:15 +0100
From: Julian Howard Stacey <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-Id: <199502030013.BAA03230@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: FreeBSD Compatible Logo
Reply-To: jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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Anyone feel like developing a freeflow `hand written' stylistic
"FreeBSD Inside" to superimpose somehow over the top of an `xearth' ?

I have to provide infrastructure for a networking presentation Tuesday, so if
someone came up with something attractive ... free publicity for FreeBSD :-)

I would offer the combo. to the presenter, to be run as a background spare
fvwm virtual desktop, before & after the presentation.

( Most presenters don't want their first `screen' on show before a presentation
  starts,  so would probably be happy to have some pleasant background on an
  alternate virtual desktop )

---
Julian Stacey	<stacey@freebsd.org>,<jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
		( <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> is a dial up )

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 18:57:04 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 22:08:27 +0100
From: Julian Howard Stacey <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-Id: <199502022108.WAA02817@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: FreeBSD Compatible Logo
Reply-To: jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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Re. the recent discussion of a 
	FreeBSD
	Compatible
or a
	FreeBSD Inside
or a 
	FreeBSD OK
Logo....

I am responsible for the technical infrastructure of a press presentation,
using World Wide Web services, Tuesday 7th.

I am a lousy artist, but if someone wants to graft a daemon + acceptible logo,
I will stick them on the terminals & tower chassis involved.

I'm not interested in debating the logo, I'll use what the budding artist 
sends me :-)	I have access tomorrow Fri 10:30 TZ=GMT+1 to a colour 
printer, (postscript I think/hope).

If anyone has created anything by then, please mail it to me,
or at least mail me the ftp'able address.

The logo should of course be discreet,
no bigger than what one can stick on the front
margin of a monitor screen, it is after all a presentation of a web product,
with FreeBSD just getting a little spin off publicity :-)

I don't have time unfortunately to assemble something myself, so 
suggestions of sites, image & tools for self construction wouldn't help me,
I need a finished small (life size) image.
Thanks.

---
Julian Stacey	<stacey@freebsd.org>,<jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
		( <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> is a dial up )

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 18:58:07 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 02:14:48 +0100
From: Julian Howard Stacey <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-Id: <199502020114.CAA16252@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org, root@io.cts.com
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

> From: Morgan Davis <root@io.cts.com>
> there should be some kind of roadmap that spells things out clearly.

If you can't find it in share/man/... or share/FAQ, feel free to write it
for us. If it's of good quality, no doubt it will be adopted. 
FreeBSD is a volunteer effort, each does what he feels like doing,
if you feel we need roadmaps .....  ;-)

---
Julian Stacey   <stacey@freebsd.org>,<jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
                ( <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> is a dial up )


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 19:01:10 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 01:57:54 +0100
From: Julian Howard Stacey <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-Id: <199502020057.BAA15152@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
To: paul@isl.cf.ac.uk
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> This idea scares the hell out of me too since the mirrors aren't under our
control
FYI
137.226.31.2    gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
is under our control 'cos kuku@freefall runs it (Michael Kuklides)
& he's given jkh Rod I & maybe couple of others logins,
& we were invited (I think) to have CVS privs or what/not for the box,
(just that we've not started  using the box yet),
still, a box this side of the atlantic slow wet string could be useful :-)

---
Julian Stacey   <stacey@freebsd.org>,<jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
                ( <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> is a dial up )

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 19:01:58 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 02:21:33 +0100
From: Julian Howard Stacey <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-Id: <199502020121.CAA17241@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org, phk@ref.tfs.com
Subject: Re: SUP must die, CTM for president !!
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@freebsd.org>
> If, by the time
> I get done with my second-stage stuff for the 2.1 install, sup is dead
> then I won't document it.
Ok, just so long as /usr/local/bin/sup does Not go away,
It's used for more than just FreeBSD supping here at least (I sup NetBSD
/ pc532 stuff), I guess other folk use sup for mach sources even ;-)
---
Julian Stacey   <stacey@freebsd.org>,<jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
                ( <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> is a dial up )

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 19:09:27 1995
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From: Jeff Aitken <jaitken@vt.edu>
Message-Id: <199502030308.WAA19000@jaitken.async.vt.edu>
Subject: pty's
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 22:08:50 -0500 (EST)
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Pardon me if this is not the best forum for this, but I'm positive
several people who reads this list knows this stuff.  Now if only they
have the time (and inclination) to help me :)

I'm trying to do some network programming involving pseudo-terminals.
In the simplest sense, this program works much like rlogind in that it
is invoked by inetd when a connection comes on some port, sets up a
pseudo-tty and perhaps performs some other initialization-type functions,
then exec's another program.  The requirement for pty's comes in to play
because that "other program" uses curses.  In any case, I'm having
difficulty getting it to work (due to my thorough misunderstanding of 
pty's no doubt ;) and am looking for some help.  I've snatched most of
the code from rlogind, but still can't seem to get it work work.  

What happens is that the program initializes alright, but after it has
execl()'d the other one, none of the curses calls seem to work (ie, no
display on the screen) and the call to wgetstr() hangs indefinitely.

I've tested the curses program from the command line and it works just
fine, so it must be my network code (ie, the analog to rlogind).  I've
got Stevens' book, but most of his code is specific to rlogin(d), and
I'm hoping to find a sort of "generic" example.

My only other option is to create a client/server pair where the server
is running on the same machine as the client, and the two speak in a
simple, plain-text language.  This allows me to leave all the UI code in
the client, and not worry about messy network details (ie, pty's).  What
I lose from this is the ability to make this accessible over the
network; everyone must log in to a particular machine to run the
program.  This isn't necessarily bad in this case, but I'd like to do it
the other way if at all possible.
-- 
Jeff Aitken
jaitken@vt.edu

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 19:19:29 1995
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Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 02:05:43 +0100
From: Julian Howard Stacey <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-Id: <199502020105.CAA15634@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org, paul@isl.cf.ac.uk
Subject: Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.
Cc: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
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Paul R. wrote
> I'm all for more people in the inner sanctum, as long as they know
> that standing on the edge of the burning coals is risky
Yup, I seem to recall Jordan's adage of some while back, roughly to the
effect that:
	~" If you want to stand on the cutting edge of technology,
	   sometimes it'll become the Bleeding edge ~" 	;-)

Perhaps hang that, your "burning coals", + "Caveat Emptor" in the comment
at the begining of the sample sup file ;-)

---
Julian Stacey   <stacey@freebsd.org>,<jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
                ( <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> is a dial up )

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 19:34:18 1995
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To: Jeff Aitken <jaitken@vt.edu>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: pty's 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Feb 95 22:08:50 EST."
             <199502030308.WAA19000@jaitken.async.vt.edu> 
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 19:33:25 -0800
Message-ID: <5786.791782405@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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I would like to explain but that would take time I don't currently
have, so instead I'll just point you at some code Michael and I wrote
a few years back:

	ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports/x11/emu

It needs to do much the kind of thing you're trying to do, and the way
I wrote the tty/pty handling code was maybe almost sort of generic in
design and thus should be maybe almost sort of easy to read.

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 20:25:54 1995
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From: Mark Hittinger <bugs@warlock.win.net>
Message-Id: <199502030426.XAA14872@warlock.win.net>
Subject: re: At Last (new feb snap)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 23:26:31 -0500 (EST)
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>Thanks!  And please let me know how it goes for you with this snapshot!
>					Jordan

Just got finished upgrading two of my boxes.

EISA aha274x support works again!

DAT tape drive support seems to be much more solid.  I was able to back
up muchly and blazingly to a WangDAT 3400DX.  Prior to this snapshot I
was not able to get this to back up much more than about 15 meg before 
the system rebooted.

Continued thanks to the FreeTEAM.

mark.h
bugs@win.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 22:42:44 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 17:41:03 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502030641.RAA31943@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: osyjm@schizo.coe.montana.edu, roberto@blaise.ibp.fr
Subject: Re: limits (again)
Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl
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>Heck, if it's wish-time, I'd love to see limits on # of processes/user,
>limits on pty vs tty access, time-of-day-limits, sheesh, a whole bunch of 'em.

See setrlimit(2).

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 22:45:29 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:32:40 +0800 (HKT)
From: John Beukema <jbeukema@HK.Super.NET>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Cc: Jeffrey Hsu <hsu@freefall.cdrom.com>, hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: POS (was Re: sup: Ok, I'm gonna do it.) 
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On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> 
> I've long felt that 2 or 3 dedicated hackers could easily put a
> warehousing or POS network together with dedicated entry terminals
> (those vt100's really take a beating and keep going! :-) hooked to a
> FreeBSD server box.  The console of the box itself could run a little
> application monitor in snazzy syscons colors on some cheapo 14"
> monitor and VGA card.  When the sysop wants to work on it, he or she
> even has up to 12 virtual screens to work on - woo!  That's a lot
> better than the console interface of any of the systems I used to put
> together! :-)
> 
> In situations where even that's impractical, they could use the serial
> console stuff and a suitably chosen machine racked in a sealed,
> dustproof (sort of) rack.  No vga display or keyboard to cause
> problems, just a rack and those little industrial terminals and their
> twisted pair serial connections down on the shop floor.
> 
> For databases, they could go Ingres or even spend some time beating on
> postgres to make it something more of what they want.  For a lot of
> applications, however, even that's overkill and they could always just
> use their own file format and B-trees or something.  The DB package we
> ship with isn't even that bad now, actually, and you could certainly
> do something like a small sawmill's work-order database with it.
> 
> Any way you slice it, if you're sure that your underlying OS is stable
> then you can put the rest together with off-the-shelf PC components
> (that you've tested extensively) and some custom code of your own.
> 
> Get a reseller's certification for the low hardware pricing and then
> walk into small businesses and undercut the turnkey bids.  Not hard,
> since most turnkey systems are EXPENSIVE.  It would be an uphill road
> to climb in competing with the quality of the turnkey software, but
> even that shouldn't be too hard for 3 really BRIGHT folks with solid
> motivation to build their own company in that business.  It's even
> kind of fun.  You get to see how a lot of busineses work that you
> never even really thought much about before!  Ever wonder how they
> make fish tanks?  Or plastic cups?  Or comic books?  Or auto parts?
> I could talk to you about all of these things from the production
> automation side.. :-)
> 
> 						Jordan
> 


I now have a production Manufacturing Resource Planning and accounting suite 
running on FreeBSD 2.0-current using the Ctree database. (250,000 line of 
code)  
Nice color screens menus and all.  It can be done.  I am adding a mobile 
phone control and billing package.   

I certainly agree with you on the installation and documentation.  There 
are many professional programmers out here who find the installation 
procedures incomprehensible, particularily the partitioning and disklabel 
parts.  Some of the arguments remind me of the tobacco industry's old 
saw  'advertising is only to maintain brand loyality not to obtain new 
smokers'  only the 'We are only looking for already experienced unix 
hackers' may be true.  Good luck to you in your documentation program.  
Is there no way to reduce the gap between 386bsd, netbsd and even linux 
and widen the family?


| John Beukema                   | Winthrop & Jeffro Ltd.       |
| 14/F Somerset House            | Manufacturing Systems        | 
| Taikoo Place, 979 King's Road  | Tel (852) 2963 7352          |
| Quarry Bay                     | Fax (852) 2963 7353          |       
| Hong Kong                      | jbeukema@HK.Super.NET        | 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 22:45:12 1995
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From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502030635.RAA31880@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, guido@gvr.win.tue.nl
Subject: Re: limits (again)
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>Okay, if there are no complaints, I'm gonna implement
>kern.maxfilesperproc

One complaint is enough? :-).  I've already complained.

>If people do want other such limits implemented, let them shout and I'll
>try doing that as well.

A correct implementation seems to require the following: (:-()
(1) search for and reduce all higher limits in rlim_cur and rlim_max in
the process table.
(2) search for and kill all processes that expect the limits that they
have already checked to remain valid.  See src/lib/libc/gen/sysconf.c.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Feb  2 22:45:30 1995
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From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502030549.QAA31188@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: bde@zeta.org.au, davidg@Root.COM
Subject: Re: Optimizing CVS?
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>   The bcmp() is implemented as assembly in support.s. Why do think it is the
>slow C version?

I was confused by the version in sys/libkern.  Most of the functions in
ibkern aren't duplicated in support.s.  I think it is a good idea not to
put the ones that are used a lot in libkern so that you are forced to
write a special version.  This may be why bcopy and bzero aren't in
libkern.

The version in support.s isn't very good for misaligned pointers.  The
best version to use depends on the data.  The version in support.s is
good for large well-aligned buffers, but for stat() it is used a lot on
counted strings.  Short strings are best handled by inline code using
"rep cmpsb" on 386's and non-CISC instructions on 486's

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 00:22:52 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 19:21:45 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502030821.TAA00593@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: freebsd-bugs@freefall.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com,
        ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com
Subject: Re: drand48 problems persist.
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>I know several people have indicated they are unable to reproduce
>my reported problems about drand48 (on FreeBSD 2.0R).
>
>However, I'm unable to get drand48 to work on any machine where 2.0R is
>installed.
>...
>---
>extern double drand48();
>
>main()
>{
>        int i;
>        double d;
>
>        for(i=0;i<3072;i++) {
>          d = drand48();
>          if(d >= 1.0) {
>                printf("%lf is greater than 1.0\n", d);
>          }
>        }
>}

The problem seems to be that the libraries shipped with 2.0R don't match
the sources shipped with 2.0.  Fix: rebuild libc.* and everything that
uses drand48.  Sigh.

The key fix was committed to /usr/src/include/stdlib.h a few hours
before the 2.0R release buy the library apparently wasn't rebuilt to
pick up the changes.  I looked at all the relevant timestamps and got
confused.  The library objects seem to be up to date with
/usr/src/include/stdlib.h.  However, they are out of date with
/usr/include/*.h.  Building /usr/include apparently clobbered all the
timestamps.  There seem to be some timezone bugs in isofs/cd9660 and/or
the cdrom.  All the timestamps on the cdrom seem to be wrong by the time
difference between here and California.

There seems to be a another bug getting the correct paths for shared
libraries.  To test for the drand48 bug, I first tried
`cc -o prog prog.c -L/cdrom/filesys/usr/lib/', but there was no problem
because my current libraries were linked to.  The correct libraries are
linked to iff the -static flag is used.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 00:32:04 1995
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	id AA11997; Thu, 2 Feb 95 23:57:39 CST
From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <9502030557.AA11997@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: PPPD, 2.0R, lcp-echo
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 23:57:38 -0600 (CST)
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Hello,

Is anybody out there using lcp-echo's with pppd under 2.0R?  I've got a
situation where a questionable pair of modems is occasionally locking up,
apparently some sort of flow control problem, and I'd like to enable
"lcp-echo-request" and "lcp-echo-failures", but when I do, the system panics
almost instantly (probably during the first echo).

The remote end is a terminal server known to support lcp-echo requests.

Is anyone doing it?  Or am I smoking bad weed again?  :-)

... Joe

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Greco - Systems Administrator			      jgreco@ns.sol.net
Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI			   414/342-4847

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 00:40:53 1995
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From: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de>
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To: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij)
Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (FreeBSD-hackers)
Subject: limits (again)
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Guido van Rooij writes:
 > Okay, if there are no complaints, I'm gonna implement
 > kern.maxfilesperproc
 > 
 > If people do want other such limits implemented, let them shout and I'll
 > try doing that as well.

kern.maxchild (max simultaneous processes)

Gruß Wolfram

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 00:45:11 1995
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Subject: swapoff
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Can I delete swap partitions? It's a nice feature (the one and only)
of solaris.

Wolfram

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 02:03:58 1995
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From: "Justin T. Gibbs" <gibbs@estienne.CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-Id: <199502031003.CAA17960@estienne.cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: At Last (new feb snap)
To: bugs@warlock.win.net (Mark Hittinger)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 02:03:42 -0800 (PST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502030426.XAA14872@warlock.win.net> from "Mark Hittinger" at Feb 2, 95 11:26:31 pm
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> 
> 
> >Thanks!  And please let me know how it goes for you with this snapshot!
> >					Jordan
> 
> Just got finished upgrading two of my boxes.
> 
> EISA aha274x support works again!

When did it stop working?

I'm the author/maintainer of this driver, so I'd like to know exactly
what improved for you.  The only differnce that should have been outwardly
visible would be Twin channel support.

> DAT tape drive support seems to be much more solid.  I was able to back
> up muchly and blazingly to a WangDAT 3400DX.  Prior to this snapshot I
> was not able to get this to back up much more than about 15 meg before 
> the system rebooted.
> 
> Continued thanks to the FreeTEAM.
> 
> mark.h
> bugs@win.net
> 


-- 
Justin T. Gibbs
==============================================
TCS Instructional Group - Programmer/Analyst 1
  Cory | Po | Danube | Volga | Parker | Torus
==============================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 04:11:16 1995
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From: Peter Dufault <dufault@hda.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD Compatible Logo
To: jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 07:10:14 -0500 (EST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502030013.BAA03230@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> from "Julian Howard Stacey" at Feb 3, 95 01:13:15 am
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Julian Howard Stacey writes:
> 
> Anyone feel like developing a freeflow `hand written' stylistic
> "FreeBSD Inside" to superimpose somehow over the top of an `xearth' ?
> 

I suggest something other than FreeBSD Inside.  We don't want to look
like we're copying Intel.

How about "What Do You Want to Pay Today" or "Just Buy It"?

No? OK then, how about "FreeBSD" centered with "FreeBSD" in other
languages disappearing around the globe?  Then with "locale support"
you can spin your language to the front?

Just plain FreeBSD is IMNSHO preferable to "FreeBSD Inside".

Peter

-- 
Peter Dufault               Real Time Machine Control and Simulation
HD Associates, Inc.         Voice: 508 433 6936
dufault@hda.com             Fax:   508 433 5267
--  Formerly hd@world.std.com.  E-mail problems? Tell hdslip@iii.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 04:40:00 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 13:35:56 +0100
From: rsilfhou@mmra1.ms.philips.nl (Ruud van Silfhout)
Message-Id: <9502031235.AA27295@mmra1.ms.philips.nl>
To: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Driver for Panasonic 563 CDROM for SB16.
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Hi,

I have a Panasonic 563 CD-ROM connected to a Soundblaster compatible card. 
I want to write a driver for it, based on the driver I found in the Linux
sources. I called the guys from Creative Labs in Germany and they are NOT 
willing to give me any documentation for the 563 CDROM drive.
So I'm stuck.

Is there out there anybody who has already written a driver for such a card? Or
perhaps started on it?
Can anyone help me with the required documentation? Or do you know the email
address of Creative Labs (Singapore?), so that I can ask them ?

If the driver is ready I'll donate it to FreeBSD.
There is however one BUT. This is my first driver for a Unix like system, so it
may take a while. 

Help is greatly appriciated.

Thanks,
Ruud van Silfhout

my email address is currently rsilfhou@mmra1.ms.philips.nl.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 05:51:13 1995
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Date: Fri, 03 Feb 95 08:38:03 
From: "Bloom, Jim" <jbloom@sungardfs.com>
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I am having problems booting FreeBSD 2.0 (CDROM from Walnut Creek CDROM).  I am 
able to boot with the boot floppy and run FDISK & DISKPART successfully.  When 
fsck is run, the disk driver goes into a loop saying that it is waiting for an 
operation to start.  I also ended up with my DOS partition on the beginning of 
the disk being corrupted.

When the system is booting, it detects the hard drive correctly and prints out 
the disk configuration matching the one stored in the BIOS.  It also prints out 
a message saying that the partition table indicates the disk has 64 heads and 
that that BIOS number is going to override the partition table.

The relevent parts of the system configuration are that I have an on-board 
enhanced IDE disk controller, 1.08 GB Western Digital hard drive (2210(?) cyl, 
16 head, 63 sectors/track according to the BIOS).

Any help with resolving would be appreciated.

Jim Bloom
jbloom@sungardfs.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 05:51:18 1995
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To: hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: POS
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Feb 1995 14:32:40 +0800."
             <Pine.SUN.3.91.950203141228.23660A-100000@is1.hk.super.net> 
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From: Robert Withrow <witr@rwwa.com>
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> I certainly agree with you on the installation and documentation.  There 
> are many professional programmers out here who find the installation 
> procedures incomprehensible, particularily the partitioning and disklabel 
> parts.

Wile it isn't a panacea, a glance at the FM (the 4.4 doc set SMM in 
particular) which can be---gasp---bought at a bookstore, will go a 
long way toward explaining things like installation.  That and the
FreeBSD supplied docs give you a fairly complete albeit rather
disorganized view of things.  The major lacking is on some of the
device drivers that are neither documented in the doc set nor in
the online man pages (sound for instance).

Honestly, the 4.4 doc set (about 7 inches of manuals) should be
perused before complaining about lack of documentation.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 598 4480, Fax: +1 617 598 4430 Net: witr@rwwa.COM
     R.W. Withrow Associates, 319 Lynnway Suite 201, Lynn MA 01901 USA


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 07:17:56 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 08:50:37 -0500
From: starkhome!gene@sbstark.cs.sunysb.edu (Gene Stark)
Message-Id: <199502031350.IAA02329@starkhome.cs.sunysb.edu>
To: Joe Greco <brasil.moneng.mei.com!jgreco@sbstark.cs.sunysb.edu>
CC: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-reply-to: Joe Greco's message of Thu, 2 Feb 1995 23:57:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: PPPD, 2.0R, lcp-echo
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>Is anybody out there using lcp-echo's with pppd under 2.0R?  I've got a
>situation where a questionable pair of modems is occasionally locking up,
>apparently some sort of flow control problem, and I'd like to enable
>"lcp-echo-request" and "lcp-echo-failures", but when I do, the system panics
>almost instantly (probably during the first echo).
>
>The remote end is a terminal server known to support lcp-echo requests.
>
>Is anyone doing it?  Or am I smoking bad weed again?  :-)

I tried this the other day, and ran into the same problem.  Didn't get
a chance to look into it.  Have at it!

							- Gene Stark

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 07:27:22 1995
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <9502031524.AA12364@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: PPPD, 2.0R, lcp-echo
To: starkhome!gene@sbstark.cs.sunysb.edu (Gene Stark)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 09:24:07 -0600 (CST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502031350.IAA02329@starkhome.cs.sunysb.edu> from "Gene Stark" at Feb 3, 95 08:50:37 am
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> I tried this the other day, and ran into the same problem.  Didn't get
> a chance to look into it.  Have at it!
> 
> 							- Gene Stark

I can't, it's not my machine, I don't have physical access to it, and if I
crash the sucker, I'm crashing somebody's production gateway router.

If'nwhen I get another box running, I will try it....  but I really don't
know much at all about the code, alas.

... Joe

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Greco - Systems Administrator			      jgreco@ns.sol.net
Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI			   414/342-4847

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 07:36:56 1995
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From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Message-Id: <9502031532.AA12416@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Compatible Logo
To: dufault@hda.com (Peter Dufault)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 09:32:53 -0600 (CST)
Cc: jhs@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502031210.HAA21417@hda.com> from "Peter Dufault" at Feb 3, 95 07:10:14 am
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> I suggest something other than FreeBSD Inside.  We don't want to look
> like we're copying Intel.
> 
> How about "What Do You Want to Pay Today" or "Just Buy It"?
> 
> No? OK then, how about "FreeBSD" centered with "FreeBSD" in other
> languages disappearing around the globe?  Then with "locale support"
> you can spin your language to the front?
> 
> Just plain FreeBSD is IMNSHO preferable to "FreeBSD Inside".

I think "FreeBSD Powered" would be sorta cool.  :-)  Just an idea.  Maybe
that's not quite the word we want...?  I dunno.

... Joe

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Greco - Systems Administrator			      jgreco@ns.sol.net
Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI			   414/342-4847

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 07:50:15 1995
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From: Mark Hittinger <bugs@warlock.win.net>
Message-Id: <199502031550.KAA15893@warlock.win.net>
Subject: new SNAP
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 10:50:38 -0500 (EST)
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spoke too soon on the EISA aha274x working.  If you compile without bounce
buffers and with debugging on it fails for me:

aha1: target 0 refusing synchronous negotiation - using asynchronous transfers
aha1: no active SCB for reconnecting target 0, channel - issuing abort

I will nose around in the code later today and see if I can find the bad boy.

later
mark.h

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 08:58:23 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 11:56:26 EST
From: jleppek@suw2k.ess.harris.com (James Leppek)
Message-Id: <9502031656.AA02232@borg.ess.harris.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
Subject: Re: PPPD, 2.0R, lcp-echo
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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I have enabled the lcp-echo stuff and
no crashing occurred, of course it did not work 
either, but I suspect it was because my provider
does not support the echo.

I have noticed on other systems running 2.0R that
they like to reboot a fair amount when using ppp
(I am running current), It looks like its tied to
the routing tables somehow. I once added 2 default
routes to my system then did a pppdown and
"pop", time for a bathroom break, a reboot occurs.

Jim

> From owner-freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com Fri Feb  3 11:35:36 1995
> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 08:50:37 -0500
> From: starkhome!gene@sbstark.cs.sunysb.edu (Gene Stark)
> To: Joe Greco <brasil.moneng.mei.com!jgreco@sbstark.cs.sunysb.edu>
> Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
> Subject: PPPD, 2.0R, lcp-echo
> Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
> 
> >Is anybody out there using lcp-echo's with pppd under 2.0R?  I've got a
> >situation where a questionable pair of modems is occasionally locking up,
> >apparently some sort of flow control problem, and I'd like to enable
> >"lcp-echo-request" and "lcp-echo-failures", but when I do, the system panics
> >almost instantly (probably during the first echo).
> >
> >The remote end is a terminal server known to support lcp-echo requests.
> >
> >Is anyone doing it?  Or am I smoking bad weed again?  :-)
> 
> I tried this the other day, and ran into the same problem.  Didn't get
> a chance to look into it.  Have at it!
> 
> 							- Gene Stark
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 09:53:58 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 12:51:50 -0500
From: Wankle Rotary Engine <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Message-Id: <199502031751.MAA03221@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Somebody broke something somewhere
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Congratulations: in spite of all my hard work to get FreeBSD to boot
with a serial console, somebody has managed to goof it all up:

No keyboard found.

>> FreeBSD BOOT @ 0x10000: 640/7168 k of memory
Use hd(1,a)/kernel to boot sd0 when wd0 is also installed.
Usage: [[[fd(0,a)]/kernel][-Dabcdhrsv]]
Use ? for file list or press Enter for defaults

Boot: 
Booting fd(0,a)/kernel @ 0x100000
text=0x81000 data=0xa000 bss=0xb098 total=0x196098 entry point=0x100000
Testing memory (8MB)...done.
Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993
        The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.

FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development #0: Thu Feb  2 12:55:06 PST 1995
    jkh@time.cdrom.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/BOOTFLP
CPU: i386DX (386-class CPU)
real memory  = 7995392 (1952 pages)
avail memory = 7065600 (1725 pages)
Probing for devices on the ISA bus:
scprobe: keyboard RESET failed fe
sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard
sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0>


Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
fault virtual address   = 0xc
fault code              = supervisor read, page not present
instruction pointer     = 0x8:0xf01715c3
code segment            = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b
                        = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1
processor eflags        = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0
current process         = 0 ()
interrupt mask          = net tty bio 
panic: page fault
hit reset please

This is with the latest snapshot boot floppy (I'm reinstalling my system
due to a disk failure). Booting from the VGA console works, of course.
I have a feeling the problem is in syscons, but I have to get up and
running before I can investigate.

WHen I track this bug down, somebody out there is really gonna catch
hell from me.

-Bill

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~T~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Bill Paul            (212) 854-6020 | System Manager
Work:         wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research
Home:  wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Mxxse Illuminati: ignore it and be confused, or join it and be confusing!
~~~~~~~ FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development #0: Fri Feb  3 02:32:25 EST 1995 ~~~~~~~~~

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 09:59:21 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 12:57:14 -0500
From: Wankle Rotary Engine <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Message-Id: <199502031757.MAA03229@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
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In relation to the message I just sent about the panic when booting from
the serial console, I've also noticed that the cursor vanishes when
kernel printf()s are displayed. Looks like somebody munged my noblink
cursor stuff too. S'matter guys, my hacks not good enough for ya? :)

-Bill

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 10:45:55 1995
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From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@ref.tfs.com>
Message-Id: <199502031845.KAA22095@ref.tfs.com>
Subject: Re: Somebody broke something somewhere
To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Wankle Rotary Engine)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 10:45:42 -0800 (PST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502031751.MAA03221@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from "Wankle Rotary Engine" at Feb 3, 95 12:51:50 pm
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> 
> Congratulations: in spite of all my hard work to get FreeBSD to boot
> with a serial console, somebody has managed to goof it all up:
Just boot "/kernel -c" and disable "sc0".

And don't threaten hard-working hackers like that btw.
You havn't paid enough for FreeBSD to have that right.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@login.dknet.dk>
TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
FreeBSD has, until now, not one single time had an undetected error. :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 11:20:28 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:18:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Stormy Henderson <stormy@Rain.MsState.EDU>
Reply-To: Stormy@GTLUG.ORG
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD Compatible Logo
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"Me and FreeBSD"
"FreeBSD for ME"
"just FreeBSD"
"I have the free UN*X FreeBSD and got it for free too!"

Be happy...


    ,---------------------------------------------------------------------.
    |-- Stormy Sebastian Henderson --------- Backwards compatibility is --|
    |------- Stormy@GTLUG.ORG -------------- killing technical advances --|
    `---------------------------------------------------------------------'


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 11:27:55 1995
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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 06:27:08 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502031927.GAA11140@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu
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>Congratulations: in spite of all my hard work to get FreeBSD to boot
>with a serial console, somebody has managed to goof it all up:

>...
>sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0>


>Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
>fault virtual address   = 0xc

I fixed this a while ago but the fix hasn't filtered into syscons yet.

Bruce

*** syscons.c~	Thu Feb  2 20:34:38 1995
--- syscons.c	Thu Feb  2 20:41:10 1995
***************
*** 419,423 ****
  scattach(struct isa_device *dev)
  {
! 	scr_stat *scp = console[0];
  
  	scinit();
--- 419,423 ----
  scattach(struct isa_device *dev)
  {
! 	scr_stat *scp;
  
  	scinit();
***************
*** 437,440 ****
--- 437,441 ----
  			MAXCONS, configuration);
  
+ 	scp = console[0];
  	scp->scr_buf = (u_short *)malloc(scp->xsize*scp->ysize*sizeof(u_short),
  					 M_DEVBUF, M_NOWAIT);


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 11:28:06 1995
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From: sos@login.dknet.dk (S|ren Schmidt)
Message-Id: <9502031927.AA15350@login.dknet.dk>
Subject: Re: The cursor vanishes
To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Wankle Rotary Engine)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 20:27:30 MET
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> 
> 
> In relation to the message I just sent about the panic when booting from
> the serial console, I've also noticed that the cursor vanishes when
> kernel printf()s are displayed. Looks like somebody munged my noblink
> cursor stuff too. S'matter guys, my hacks not good enough for ya? :)
> 
> -Bill
 
Well, a LOT has changes in the console driver lately, and it is
not quite "polished" yet. But thats whats -current is for, this
is the way we work.
If you want a "solid" system then go for the releases...
If you want to know, I've taken your "hacks" further, actually
fixed some bugs in them, and made it more general usefull, how's
that ??

Oh, and to the mail before this: Don't bitch, be constructional...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Soren Schmidt  (sos@FreeBSD.org | sos@login.dknet.dk)  FreeBSD Core Team
               So much code to hack -- so little time
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 11:33:28 1995
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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 06:31:50 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502031931.GAA11170@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu
Subject: Re: The cursor vanishes
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>In relation to the message I just sent about the panic when booting from
>the serial console, I've also noticed that the cursor vanishes when
>kernel printf()s are displayed. Looks like somebody munged my noblink
>cursor stuff too. S'matter guys, my hacks not good enough for ya? :)

The cursor also vanishes during debugging.  More surprisingly, it
vanished when I ran something that used to cause a panic - the
system hung, but not before it turned off the cursor.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 11:51:37 1995
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From: "Justin T. Gibbs" <gibbs@estienne.CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-Id: <199502031951.LAA10529@estienne.cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: new SNAP
To: bugs@warlock.win.net (Mark Hittinger)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 11:51:22 -0800 (PST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502031550.KAA15893@warlock.win.net> from "Mark Hittinger" at Feb 3, 95 10:50:38 am
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> 
> 
> spoke too soon on the EISA aha274x working.  If you compile without bounce
> buffers and with debugging on it fails for me:

Are you possitive that your motherboard can do DMA above 16meg??  Not all
EISA machines are created equal you know.  I also cannot guarantee that the 
diagnostic code in there is up to date.  I've been running without it enabled 
for some time now.

> aha1: target 0 refusing synchronous negotiation - using asynchronous transfers
> aha1: no active SCB for reconnecting target 0, channel - issuing abort

Unless you know aic7xxx assembly, I think you might find this difficult.
It may be that there are still problems in the way we recieve and respond
to SDTR, WDTR or REJECT  messages, but those problems will most likely
reside in sys/gnu/misc/aic7xxx/aic7xxx.seq.  The error message you report
is the result of the target reconnecting to the host when it hasn't 
disconnected first (or so the aic7xxx things).  I have no idea how bounce
buffering could have affected this unless you have a DMA problem.

> I will nose around in the code later today and see if I can find the bad boy.
> 
> later
> mark.h


-- 
Justin T. Gibbs
==============================================
TCS Instructional Group - Programmer/Analyst 1
  Cory | Po | Danube | Volga | Parker | Torus
==============================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 12:33:18 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 15:53:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "Alok K. Dhir" <adhir@bigdipper.umd.edu>
To: S|ren Schmidt <sos@login.dknet.dk>
cc: Wankle Rotary Engine <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: The cursor vanishes
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On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, S|ren Schmidt wrote:

> > 
> > 
> > In relation to the message I just sent about the panic when booting from
> > the serial console, I've also noticed that the cursor vanishes when
> > kernel printf()s are displayed. Looks like somebody munged my noblink
> > cursor stuff too. S'matter guys, my hacks not good enough for ya? :)
> > 
> > -Bill
>  
> Well, a LOT has changes in the console driver lately, and it is
> not quite "polished" yet. But thats whats -current is for, this
> is the way we work.
> If you want a "solid" system then go for the releases...

Like 2.0R? :-)

  -------------------------------------___---------------------------------
 | Al Dhir, Programmer Analyst        /___\    UMCP Ag-Engineering Dept    |
 | Internet: adhir@bigdipper.umd.edu  (o o)    (301) 405-1197              |
  ---------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-----------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 13:05:02 1995
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From: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij)
Message-Id: <199502032103.WAA20262@gvr.win.tue.nl>
Subject: Re: limits (again)
To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 22:03:50 +0100 (MET)
Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
In-Reply-To: <199502030635.RAA31880@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Feb 3, 95 05:35:28 pm
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Bruce Evans wrote:
> 
> >Okay, if there are no complaints, I'm gonna implement
> >kern.maxfilesperproc
> 
> One complaint is enough? :-).  I've already complained.

Sorry; I must have missed that one. Could you remail it? 

> 
> >If people do want other such limits implemented, let them shout and I'll
> >try doing that as well.
> 
> A correct implementation seems to require the following: (:-()
> (1) search for and reduce all higher limits in rlim_cur and rlim_max in
> the process table.
> (2) search for and kill all processes that expect the limits that they
> have already checked to remain valid.  See src/lib/libc/gen/sysconf.c.

It depends on how you look at it. Does resetting the value of it means that
at once everything should obey it, or is it a restriction from now on.

I dont see a problem with the latter one.

-Guido

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 13:08:35 1995
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From: raul@scs.leeds.ac.uk
Via: uk.ac.leeds.scs; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 19:30:09 +0000
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 19:06:12 GMT
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What is FreeBSD? A cheap Unix for PC?

Does it have Lucid Common Lisp or other Common Lisp? And Emacs? And SML? 
And GCC? And TeX? And Perl? Yes? I want it!

How much do i have to pay? Conditions? Guarantee? Do you have it in CD-ROM?
Installation?

Raul

PS: Would it be too much to ask for TCP/IP?
 
E-mail: raul@scs.leeds.ac.uk


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 13:09:42 1995
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From: Mark Hittinger <bugs@warlock.win.net>
Message-Id: <199502032110.QAA24122@warlock.win.net>
Subject: eisa aha274x problem is my mb
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 16:10:07 -0500 (EST)
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Justin is right my EISA motherboard isn't doing DMA to the upper 16mb.  Grrr.

My p90/pci motherboard sitting right next to it is doing just fine :-)

Thats what happens when you pick up ratty old used EISA P-60's as test
machines :-)

Guess I will just have to build on that box with bounce buffers.  I wonder
how hard it would be to make some of these configuration options soft instead
of compile time.  I'd like to be able to run the same kernel across several
platforms but I can see some options (like bounce buffers) that would be
nice to set from a /sysgen.dat file or something.  Guess thats my VMS time
coming out :-)

I am able to do compiles just fine with the latest snap by the way.

PS: does anybody have a list of whats good about the new XFree86 dist?

Having even more fun than Solaris sysadmins.....

mark.h

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 13:12:51 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502032106.AA23690@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Compatible Logo
To: Stormy@GTLUG.ORG
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 14:06:44 MST
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> "I have the free UN*X FreeBSD and got it for free too!"

"My parents just installed FreeBSD
 and all I got was the source code for everything
 which beats a lousy T shirt all to heck"


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 13:32:48 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502032126.AA23872@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: FIX FOR CACHE/DMA RANGE PROBLEMS (was Re: new SNAP)
To: gibbs@estienne.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Justin T. Gibbs)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 14:26:26 MST
Cc: bugs@warlock.win.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502031951.LAA10529@estienne.cs.berkeley.edu> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Feb 3, 95 11:51:22 am
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> Are you possitive that your motherboard can do DMA above 16meg??  Not all
> EISA machines are created equal you know.  I also cannot guarantee that the 
> diagnostic code in there is up to date.  I've been running without it enabled 
> for some time now.

Look, you can diagnose a cache problem:

o	Do a pattern write to the first block of swap.
o	Use the same buffer.  Do a pattern write of a different pattern
	to the second block of swap.
o	Use the same buffer.  DMA read the first block of swap.  Examine
	the first byte of the buffer.  Do you see the character you used
	in the first or the second pattern?
o	If you have a cache problem, turn off the cache or turn on BINVD
	or use programmed I/O.

This should be automatic.  If necessary, reserve a disk block before the
mountable part of the 'a' slice to do the test (assuming no swap).


Diagnosing a DMA range restriction is similarly easy:

o	Make sure that you have a memory area that is clean both with
	and without the 16M range mask.  This is the tricky part.
o	Fill the lower memory area with a pattern.
o	Do a write of the lower memory area to the first block of swap.
o	Fill both the upper and lower memory are with a different
	pattern.
o	Do a DMA read into the upper memory address.
o	Determine if the controller wrote upper or lower memory.
o	If you have a DMA range restriction, turn on bouncing.


All this "try setting this, try setting that" is just mindless frobbing.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 13:41:50 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 05:23:32 +0100
From: Julian Howard Stacey <jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
Message-Id: <199502030423.FAA14677@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de>
To: rkw@dataplex.net, wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: sup:  Ok, I'm gonna do it.
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> From: Garrett Wollman <wollman@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu>
> I am not willing to waste too much effort on making sure that the
> world always compiles; there's no benefit.
But some effort ?
IMHO code that can't compile doesn't belong.
Julian S

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 14:02:37 1995
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From: Peter Dufault <dufault@hda.com>
Message-Id: <199502032201.RAA22886@hda.com>
Subject: Re: The cursor vanishes
To: sos@login.dknet.dk (S|ren Schmidt)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 17:01:38 -0500 (EST)
Cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <9502031927.AA15350@login.dknet.dk> from "S|ren Schmidt" at Feb 3, 95 08:27:30 pm
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(...)
> 
> Oh, and to the mail before this: Don't bitch, be constructional...

I'm pretty sure Bill's tongue was inserted solidly in cheek
(translation: He was teasing) with his harrassment.  Let us remember
how difficult it is to get the fine points across via e-mail
(especially from those of us who refuse to use smileys) and be
non-confrontational and boring.

Peter

-- 
Peter Dufault               Real Time Machine Control and Simulation
HD Associates, Inc.         Voice: 508 433 6936
dufault@hda.com             Fax:   508 433 5267
--  Formerly hd@world.std.com.  E-mail problems? Tell hdslip@iii.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 15:27:52 1995
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From: Terry Lee <terryl@CS.Stanford.EDU>
Message-Id: <9502032327.AA16224@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: raul
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 15:27:45 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <4500.9502031906@csparc10.scs.leeds.ac.uk> from "raul@scs.leeds.ac.uk" at Feb 3, 95 07:06:12 pm
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This brit is going to sh*t in his pants when he sees FreeBSD  8)

raul@scs.leeds.ac.uk writes:
> 
> What is FreeBSD? A cheap Unix for PC?
> 
> Does it have Lucid Common Lisp or other Common Lisp? And Emacs? And SML? 
> And GCC? And TeX? And Perl? Yes? I want it!
> 
> How much do i have to pay? Conditions? Guarantee? Do you have it in CD-ROM?
> Installation?
> 
> Raul
> 
> PS: Would it be too much to ask for TCP/IP?
>  
> E-mail: raul@scs.leeds.ac.uk
> 
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 15:49:33 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 18:47:22 -0500
From: Wankle Rotary Engine <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Message-Id: <199502032347.SAA03732@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: The all-singing, all-dancing install...
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...looks pretty good so far. I did an NFS install and it worked
*reasonably* smoothly. However, I wouldn't be me if I didn't pick nits. :)

Two small things:

- The silly install program still insists that you create a /usr partition
  whether you want one or not. It so happens that I don't want one:
  I have only small disks in my PC at work, so /usr gets mounted
  via NFS. (I also have to remember to properly hack /etc/rc, but
  that's my problem.) There should be a way to bypass this restriction:
  if I don't want to do things the 'right way,' I should be able to.
  A warning message would be preferable.

- The instructions in the 'NFS mount options' screen are wrong. They
  say you should use things like '-o resvport' or '-o -r4096 -w4096,'
  which would be the correct syntax for mount, but the install uses
  mount_nfs, which doesn't grok these arguments. Instead of
  '-o resvport' you need to use '-P'. The -r4096 and -w4096 options
  are correct, but you don't need to use -o with them. Since I happen
  to know the right options this wasn't a problem for me, but anyone
  who hasn't read the mount_nfs man page would become hopelessly
  confused.

Using '/kernel -c' to disable syscons, I was able to test the
install on a serial console for the first time. Unfortunately,
I encountered another panic while trying to get my ethernet interface
configured during the second stage of the install (note that I
didn't get the mail suggesting /kernel -c until after I'd already
completed the first stage):

(Note: the menu screen doesn't really look as trashy as it appears
below: it's been mangled due to 8->7 bit stupidity.)

                 lqqqqqqqqqq Network Configuration qqqqqqqqqqqk
                 x Any extra flags to ifconfig, put them here x
                 x lqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqk x
                 x x                                        x x
                 tqmqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqjqu
                 x           <  OK  >      <Cancel>           x
                 mqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqj

(I didn't need to specify any extra flags, so I pressed ENTER.)

Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
fault virtual address   = 0x0
fault code              = supervisor read, page not present
instruction pointer     = 0x8:0xf01c04eb
code segment            = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b
                        = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1
processor eflags        = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0
current process         = 7 (sh)
interrupt mask          = 
panic: page fault

syncing disks... 9 9 7 3 done
Automatic reboot in 15 seconds - press a key on the console to abort
Rebooting...

marple# ls -l kernel
-rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel  1012937 Feb  2 08:49 kernel
marple# nm kernel | grep f01c0
f01c0418 t _alloc_scp
f01c062c t _get_fstr
f01c07e0 t _history_down_line
f01c06dc t _history_to_screen
f01c075c t _history_up_line
f01c04bc t _init_scp         <---- likely culprit
f01c085c t _scgetc
f01c022c t _scinit
f01c0580 t _scput
f01c0668 t _update_leds
 
My guess is that it puked while trying to write to /dev/ttyv1, which
didn't exist because syscons was disabled. I'm not sure what the proper
fix for this would be, except possibly some extra sanity checking
somewhere.

-Bill

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~T~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Bill Paul            (212) 854-6020 | System Manager
Work:         wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research
Home:  wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Møøse Illuminati: ignore it and be confused, or join it and be confusing!
~~~~~~~~ FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development #2: Fri Feb  3 16:18:16 EST 1995 ~~~~~~~~~


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 16:17:26 1995
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From: "Justin T. Gibbs" <gibbs@estienne.CS.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-Id: <199502040017.QAA11664@estienne.cs.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: FIX FOR CACHE/DMA RANGE PROBLEMS (was Re: new SNAP)
To: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 16:17:04 -0800 (PST)
Cc: bugs@warlock.win.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <9502032126.AA23872@cs.weber.edu> from "Terry Lambert" at Feb 3, 95 02:26:26 pm
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> 
> > Are you possitive that your motherboard can do DMA above 16meg??  Not all
> > EISA machines are created equal you know.  I also cannot guarantee that the 
> > diagnostic code in there is up to date.  I've been running without it enabled 
> > for some time now.
> 
> Look, you can diagnose a cache problem:
> 
> o	Do a pattern write to the first block of swap.
> o	Use the same buffer.  Do a pattern write of a different pattern
> 	to the second block of swap.
> o	Use the same buffer.  DMA read the first block of swap.  Examine
> 	the first byte of the buffer.  Do you see the character you used
> 	in the first or the second pattern?
> o	If you have a cache problem, turn off the cache or turn on BINVD
> 	or use programmed I/O.
> 
> This should be automatic.  If necessary, reserve a disk block before the
> mountable part of the 'a' slice to do the test (assuming no swap).
> 
> 
> Diagnosing a DMA range restriction is similarly easy:
> 
> o	Make sure that you have a memory area that is clean both with
> 	and without the 16M range mask.  This is the tricky part.
> o	Fill the lower memory area with a pattern.
> o	Do a write of the lower memory area to the first block of swap.
> o	Fill both the upper and lower memory are with a different
> 	pattern.
> o	Do a DMA read into the upper memory address.
> o	Determine if the controller wrote upper or lower memory.
> o	If you have a DMA range restriction, turn on bouncing.
> 
> 
> All this "try setting this, try setting that" is just mindless frobbing.
> 

This is not the job of the device driver.  I think that many of these types
of problems are detectable.  The question is who has the time or interest to 
write the code.

> 
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@cs.weber.edu
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
> 


-- 
Justin T. Gibbs
==============================================
TCS Instructional Group - Programmer/Analyst 1
  Cory | Po | Danube | Volga | Parker | Torus
==============================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 16:22:10 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
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Subject: Re: The all-singing, all-dancing install...
To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Wankle Rotary Engine)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 17:16:03 MST
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502032347.SAA03732@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from "Wankle Rotary Engine" at Feb 3, 95 06:47:22 pm
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> (Note: the menu screen doesn't really look as trashy as it appears
> below: it's been mangled due to 8->7 bit stupidity.)
> 
>                  lqqqqqqqqqq Network Configuration qqqqqqqqqqqk

Actually, this is the VT100 line drawing character set.

What's stripped is the <SI>, <SO> characters.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 16:46:48 1995
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From: terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert)
Message-Id: <9502040040.AA24550@cs.weber.edu>
Subject: Re: FIX FOR CACHE/DMA RANGE PROBLEMS (was Re: new SNAP)
To: gibbs@estienne.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Justin T. Gibbs)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 95 17:40:45 MST
Cc: bugs@warlock.win.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502040017.QAA11664@estienne.cs.berkeley.edu> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Feb 3, 95 04:17:04 pm
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> > Look, you can diagnose a cache problem:

[ ... ]

> > Diagnosing a DMA range restriction is similarly easy:

[ ... ]

> This is not the job of the device driver.  I think that many of these types
> of problems are detectable.  The question is who has the time or interest to 
> write the code.

Providing a mechanism that non-driver code can use to exercise the problem
*is* the job of the device driver.

For the Ultrastor controllers, barring a method to detect the difference
between a 24f and 34f as part of the probe, it's the *only* viable soloution.

You're right that this does not mean including the probe code in each
driver, but by that same token, it does mean including hooks to allow for
block read and write of a single block rather than relying on the VM
system to do the right thing.

So it's a combination of driver entry points and generalized probe code.

Drivers also need an attribute flag to tell whether or not they use DMA
and so are succeptable to the problem.  This was forcefully brought home
by the NCR driver users who had no problems when the probe wasn't as
good as it is now, and the driver fell back to polling -- the problem
hid itself because of the I/O mechanism used.

To hide the problems when they are known means knowinglingly causing
non-DMA I/O to be used (the driver need not support that, but allowing
such a thing is definitely the job of the device driver, if it is
allowed at all), invalidating the cache intentionally before using data
resulting from a DMA transfer by a controller (the driver *must* tell us
it uses DMA, since like the NCR driver, it may be dual mode), or by
explicitly disabling the cache (per page if possible, entirely if not).


The Cyrix/TI chip detect and cache disabling code in The Undocumented PC
would probably solve 30-40% of the reported problems off the bat, and
the source code is in the book.


The other cache problems are based on a succeptability code for the
driver, or on global succeptability.  A driver that can't tell an ISA
card from an EISA card *must* either note that it can screw up on DMA
above 16M *OR* it must always use bounce buffers.

A VLB card is always succeptable to broken cache writeback, unless you
can software detect if it is in a master slot or a slave slot.

A PCI card is succeptable unless you can tell a bad Saturn/Neptune/Mercury
chipset from a good one.

An EISA card is succeptable unless you can tell if the board has a HiNT
(or other buggy) chipset.


Most of this is bus-driver as opposed to card-driver, but the probe is
on the basis of causing a detectable failure in a succeptable card
driver (with the exception of the Cyrix/TI).

A smart driver, on the other hand, means you can penalize only the
equipment that is succeptable to the problem instead of all the cards
on the machine.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@cs.weber.edu
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 18:01:37 1995
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Compatible Logo 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Feb 95 14:18:55 EST."
             <Pine.LNX.3.91.950203141806.21668B-100000@Rain.MsState.EDU> 
Date: Fri, 03 Feb 1995 18:01:32 -0800
Message-ID: <4389.791863292@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> "Me and FreeBSD"
> "FreeBSD for ME"
> "just FreeBSD"

Uh, can we end this thread?  I'm out of insulin! :)

Seriously, we have a lot of things to worry about before we start
sweating the logo (geeze!) and we already have a ``mascot'' so if you
need an image, just use his (in a non-commercial way) and nobody will
mind.  I see no reason for *anyone* to put a whole bunch of work into
this for PR purposes.  If you have extra energy for PR and are just
itching to do something, then by all means talk to me and I'll give
you a plenty of suggestions for things that will maximize your PR for
minimum effort invested.  A logo isn't anywhere near the top of my
list, I can tell you that.  Once the kind of foundation is in place
for actually making *use* of such a logo, then we can re-evaluate its
importance to us.

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 18:25:06 1995
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Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 20:24:58 -0600
From: Mark Tinguely <tinguely@plains.nodak.edu>
Message-Id: <199502040224.AA13601@plains.NoDak.edu>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: longjump in kernel
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 stupid question time. I have a video board that requires the camera to
 supply vertical sync, and I need to wait for starts/stops of the vertical
 syncs in the driver. if the camera is turned off and someone reads from the
 camera, then my driver will hang forever (I guess this could be said for a
 disk drive, but more users will shut their camera off when they would not
 shut off their disk drive).

 am I correct in think there is nothing that can be done in this situation?
 (a user process can set a timer and long jump out, but I can imagine this
 is leagal in a device driver).

 I am about to change my sun based RGB grabber for nv/ivs to use this card
 (the old cheap digial vision "computer eyes" - it was here, don't buy it if
 you don't own one, we are going to buy a better card for real use).

--mark.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 20:16:39 1995
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Message-Id: <m0rabao-00030WC@obiwan.uucp>
From: obiwan!bob@uudell.us.dell.com (Bob Willcox)
Subject: NE3200 device driver??
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com (freebsd-hackers)
Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 21:55:26 -0600 (CST)
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Does anyone have or know of anyone working on a device driver for the
Novell NE3200 EISA Ethernet card?  I picked one up real cheap and was
wondering if any support exists for it.

Thanks,
-- 
Bob Willcox                ...!{rutgers|ames}!cs.utexas.edu!uudell!obiwan!bob
Austin, TX                             or try: @uudell.us.dell.com:obiwan!bob
512-258-4224 (home), 512-838-3914 (work)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Feb  3 22:58:28 1995
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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 17:54:03 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502040654.RAA22846@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu
Subject: Re: The all-singing, all-dancing install...
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>Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
>...
>instruction pointer     = 0x8:0xf01c04eb
>...
>f01c04bc t _init_scp         <---- likely culprit
> ...
>My guess is that it puked while trying to write to /dev/ttyv1, which
>didn't exist because syscons was disabled. I'm not sure what the proper
>fix for this would be, except possibly some extra sanity checking
>somewhere.

Yes, scopen() of /dev/ttyv1 doesn't check if syscons is configured.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 01:57:54 1995
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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 04:54:49 -0500
From: starkhome!gene@sbstark.cs.sunysb.edu (Gene Stark)
Message-Id: <199502040954.EAA04655@starkhome.cs.sunysb.edu>
To: Mark Tinguely <plains.nodak.edu!tinguely@sbstark.cs.sunysb.edu>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-reply-to: Mark Tinguely's message of Fri, 3 Feb 1995 20:24:58 -0600
Subject: longjump in kernel
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> stupid question time. I have a video board that requires the camera to
> supply vertical sync, and I need to wait for starts/stops of the vertical
> syncs in the driver. if the camera is turned off and someone reads from the
> camera, then my driver will hang forever (I guess this could be said for a
> disk drive, but more users will shut their camera off when they would not
> shut off their disk drive).
>
> am I correct in think there is nothing that can be done in this situation?
> (a user process can set a timer and long jump out, but I can imagine this
> is leagal in a device driver).

Have a look at /sys/i386/isa/tw.c, which syncs to zero crossings of the AC
power line.  You should be able to use similar techniques to solve your
problem.
							- Gene Stark

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 03:20:31 1995
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From: Peter Dufault <dufault@hda.com>
Message-Id: <199502041119.GAA26711@hda.com>
Subject: Re: longjump in kernel
To: tinguely@plains.nodak.edu (Mark Tinguely)
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 06:19:41 -0500 (EST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502040224.AA13601@plains.NoDak.edu> from "Mark Tinguely" at Feb 3, 95 08:24:58 pm
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Mark Tinguely writes:
> 
> 
>  stupid question time. I have a video board that requires the camera to
>  supply vertical sync, and I need to wait for starts/stops of the vertical
>  syncs in the driver. if the camera is turned off and someone reads from the
>  camera, then my driver will hang forever (I guess this could be said for a
>  disk drive, but more users will shut their camera off when they would not
>  shut off their disk drive).
> 
>  am I correct in think there is nothing that can be done in this situation?
>  (a user process can set a timer and long jump out, but I can imagine this
>  is leagal in a device driver).
> 
>  I am about to change my sun based RGB grabber for nv/ivs to use this card
>  (the old cheap digial vision "computer eyes" - it was here, don't buy it if
>  you don't own one, we are going to buy a better card for real use).

To set an alarm:
 -Use "sleep" to wait for the interrupt while in the user process context;
 -Use "wakeup" from the vertical sync interrupt to continue the blocked context;
 -Use "timeout" to set a timeout function that will wakeup the context with
  an error indication set in the event of loss of interrupt.  Return
  an error code to the user process;
 -Use "untimeout" to cancel the timeout if the interrupt comes in
  on time.

Grep around in /sys/i386/isa for "untimeout" and you will
find some examples.

This must be covered in the "The Design of the 4.3 OS" book by
Leffler, Mckusick, and Karels. (Addison Wesley?  We should add a
bibliography section to the FAQ)

-- 
Peter Dufault               Real Time Machine Control and Simulation
HD Associates, Inc.         Voice: 508 433 6936
dufault@hda.com             Fax:   508 433 5267
--  Formerly hd@world.std.com.  E-mail problems? Tell hdslip@iii.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 03:22:15 1995
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From: Peter Dufault <dufault@hda.com>
Message-Id: <199502041121.GAA26729@hda.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Compatible Logo
To: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 06:21:30 -0500 (EST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <4389.791863292@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 3, 95 06:01:32 pm
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Jordan K. Hubbard writes:
> 
> Uh, can we end this thread?  I'm out of insulin! :)
> 
> Seriously, we have a lot of things to worry about before we start
> sweating the logo (geeze!) and we already have a ``mascot'' so if you
> need an image, just use his (in a non-commercial way) and nobody will
(...)

Why was this post in mixed case?

-- 
Peter Dufault               Real Time Machine Control and Simulation
HD Associates, Inc.         Voice: 508 433 6936
dufault@hda.com             Fax:   508 433 5267
--  Formerly hd@world.std.com.  E-mail problems? Tell hdslip@iii.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 05:12:50 1995
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From: John Herks <john@pyromania.apana.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502041317.AAA02376@pyromania.apana.org.au>
Subject: TTY Names (finger/who)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 00:17:00 +1100 (EST)
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I have serial ports with the following names -:

ttyd1
ttyd10
ttyd11

Under finger or who - they all show up as d1 !

Is this "normal" ?

Rgds,
                               
                                 \|/                                     
                                (@ @)                                    
----------------------------oOO--(_)--OOo-----------------------------------
                           ```       '''
John Herks                                       Communications Engineer
Pyromania Unix Melbourne                         john@pyromania.apana.org.au
Phone:+613-220-4757
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 06:42:48 1995
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To: Peter Dufault <dufault@hda.com>
Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.org (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD Compatible Logo 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 04 Feb 95 06:21:30 EST."
             <199502041121.GAA26729@hda.com> 
X-Mailer: exmh version 1.4.1 7/21/94
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 08:31:55 -0600
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> Jordan K. Hubbard writes:
> > 
> > Uh, can we end this thread?  I'm out of insulin! :)
> > 
> > Seriously, we have a lot of things to worry about before we start
> > sweating the logo (geeze!) and we already have a ``mascot'' so if you
> > need an image, just use his (in a non-commercial way) and nobody will
> (...)
> 
> Why was this post in mixed case?

Jordan didn't think a toon ferret was an appropriate FreeBSD hacker logo?

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 08:17:46 1995
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: longjump in kernel 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Feb 1995 06:19:41 EST."
             <199502041119.GAA26711@hda.com> 
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 09:18:36 -0700
From: Steve Passe <fbsd@clem.systemsix.com>
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> This must be covered in the "The Design of the 4.3 OS" book by
> Leffler, Mckusick, and Karels. (Addison Wesley?  We should add a
> bibliography section to the FAQ)

for the bib:

The Design and Implementation of the 4.3BSD UNIX Operating System
Addison-Wesley Publishing Company
Leffler, Samuel J.
McKusick, Marshall Kirk
Karels, Michael J.
Quarterman, John S.
ISBN 0-201-06196-1

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 11:58:22 1995
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Help hacking vidcontrol, possibly syscons
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 11:57:00 -0800
From: Eric Blood <eblood@winky.reno.nv.us>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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I would like to be able to make different settings for each 
virtual console on startup.  The problem is that vidcontrol
only modifies the console tied to stdin (which in the case
of starting up is only ttyv0).

I quickly modified vidcontrol to open /dev/ttyv3, O_RDONLY
and then passed that file descriptor to the ioctl call
just as vidcontrol originally did (except with just stdin).
The result is the virtual terminal running the modified
vidcontrol is the one to change, not the hardwired /dev/ttyv3.

Can I just change vidcontrol to do what I need?  If so, how.
Or, will I need to change syscons?  If so, how much.

Thanks.

EVB

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 14:13:33 1995
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From: sos@login.dknet.dk (S|ren Schmidt)
Message-Id: <9502042210.AA25866@login.dknet.dk>
Subject: Re: Help hacking vidcontrol, possibly syscons
To: eblood@winky.reno.nv.us (Eric Blood)
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 95 23:10:46 MET
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199502041957.LAA00372@winky>; from "Eric Blood" at Feb 4, 95 11:57 am
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You just have to redirect stdin as in:

	vidcontrol VGA_80x50 < /dev/ttyv4

No mods are nessesary to either vidcontrol or syscons.

> I would like to be able to make different settings for each 
> virtual console on startup.  The problem is that vidcontrol
> only modifies the console tied to stdin (which in the case
> of starting up is only ttyv0).
> 
> I quickly modified vidcontrol to open /dev/ttyv3, O_RDONLY
> and then passed that file descriptor to the ioctl call
> just as vidcontrol originally did (except with just stdin).
> The result is the virtual terminal running the modified
> vidcontrol is the one to change, not the hardwired /dev/ttyv3.
> 
> Can I just change vidcontrol to do what I need?  If so, how.
> Or, will I need to change syscons?  If so, how much.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> EVB
> 


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Soren Schmidt  (sos@FreeBSD.org | sos@login.dknet.dk)  FreeBSD Core Team
               So much code to hack -- so little time
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 16:10:07 1995
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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 95 16:56 CST
To: FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
From: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV)
Sent: Sat Feb  4 1995, 16:56:57 CST
Subject: Still need bdev major number assignment
Cc: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org, nate@bsd.coe.montana.edu
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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About three weeks ago, I sent the a piece of mail to 
	FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com
requesting a bdev major number be assigned for a driver I am
completing.  I apparently never got any assignment, and only one piece of
mail from someone that might have been making a tangential reply
(someone asking for programming details on some devices).   

So I am asking again.   If someone did write me a response with the
information I needed, I apologize.  An upstream site lost a 2GB drive
about that time and perhaps your mail went with it.  If you would
resend the text of the message, I would really appreciate it.


According to conf.c:
[-]/*
[-]* If you need a bdev major number, please contact the FreeBSD team
[-]* by sending mail to "FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com".
[-]* If you assign one yourself it may conflict with someone else.
[-]*/

I am in the final stages of debugging a driver for the Matsushita CD-ROM
drive (CR-562 & CR-563) for use with FreeBSD.  This is the drive with
the proprietary interface that you find on SoundBlaster audio
cards (sometimes called the Creative/Panasonic interface), as well as
SB-clone audio cards and standalone CD-ROM interface cards bundled with
the drives.

This double-speed drive is marketed under the names Creative, Reveal,
and Panasonic, and comes bundled with many types computers.  
The interface (and the driver) should support up to four of these drives.
With the right combination of adapters, you can connect 16 drives
to a single system.

You can also read subcodes while playing audio (for CD+G and things)
as well as read raw redbook (audio) tracks.

These drives can be had separately for between $170 and $230 retail.

FYI, if you are affiliated with any company that sells Creative Labs
products, you can take advantage of the Creative Labs employee discount
and get them for less.  (I have no affiliation with Creative Labs, so this
isn't meant to be a commercial.) 

I wrote to Nate about this project several months ago who indicated that
he didn't know of anyone who was working on this. 

I am currently using major #8 (having null pointers in there as the default
is a bit dangerous, isn't it?) but I would like a more permanent number
assigned.   Because of the number of these drives that are out there
already, this driver could be *very* popular.   Someone at SCO is already
asking if they can include a port of the driver in their UNIX product.

(On USENET I saw a passing reference to a "pcd" device, but it does
 not appear in the 1.1.5.1 tree I am using for development.)

If you need additional details, please let me know.  I would like to
release something by the end of the month, and not having a major
number will become a stumbling block pretty soon.   

Also, please add me to the appropriate FreeBSD development group mailing
lists.  I suspect my original request was lost, as I haven't seen a single
piece of mail on the topic.

Thanks.

Frank Durda IV <uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org>|"The Knights who say "LETNi"
or  uhclem%nemesis@trsvax.ast.com (Internet)| demand...  A WORKING PENTIUM!!!
...letni!rwsys!nemesis!uhclem               |"A what?"
...decvax!trsvax.fw.ast.com!nemesis!uhclem  |"LETNi! LETNi! LETNi!"(TM)1983

"Where do you want to go today?  Anywhere Microsoft tells you to(TM)." :-(
- (C) 1995 MADSoft


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 16:22:07 1995
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To: gurney_j@efn.org (John-Mark Gurney)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: popper
In-Reply-To: gurney_j@efn.org's message of 01 Feb 1995 21:59:42 PST
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 16:21:23 -0800
From: Paul Traina <pst@cisco.com>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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> well...  I'm not sure this is the proper place to put this... but I have 
> been having problems with popper... the major problem is that popper 
> isn't truncating the pop spool temp file...  and basicly I was getting 
> messages over and over again that I had already received...  so I decided 
> to get a different pop mail server....

That's really strange, I've not seen any of these problems.
Pardon the stupid question, but are you sure that you're properly executing
the DELE commands and exiting properly with a QUIT command?

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 16:23:28 1995
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Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 16:23:27 -0800
From: Julian Elischer <julian>
Message-Id: <199502050023.QAA13560@freefall.cdrom.com>
To: hackers
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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does anyone have a sample map file for amd?
it's pretty amazing that the man page doesn't give one.....

julian

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 16:32:35 1995
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
cc: elh@spnet.com
Subject: 950202-SNAP, cpio, laptop, cirrus pcmcia
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 16:32:04 +0000
From: Ed Hudson <elh@p5.spnet.com>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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 howdy.


	i think that 950202-SNAP is great.  congrats to all.
	it is wonderful to have a free, real operating system who's
	quality exceeds commercial offerings in allmost all respects.
	FreeBSD is an excellent operating system.  you all have
	a lot to be proud of.

	the SNAP install went perfectly onto a 486/aha/maxtor system.

	however, i had the same difficulty another poster
	mentioned with respect to the nfs read/write block sizes
	installing on my laptop, and a few otherones as well.

 specific problems i had with the install (laptop):

	the laptop contains the (a?) cirrus logic pcmcia chip set.

 --->>>	in order for my national pcmcia ethernet 10b2 card to be
	recognized and work properly, i had to preinstall into
	the kernel if_ze patch posted by hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp
	after the 2.0-R release (fortunately, i had the 486/aha/maxtor
	system to kernel compile on...).  this patch doesn't seem
	to have made it into the subsequent SNAP's.

	needing a special kernel created another problem (for me) in
	modifying the install sequence.  the new cpio floppy contains a
	kernel, which overwrites the kernel loaded from the boot floppy.
	so replacing the kernel in just the boot floppy was inadequate.
	in my case, the generic boot floppy locks up my laptop (it does
	better if i disable everything but a minimum system).

 --->>>	perhaps sysinstall could just rename the boot disk kernel,
	before loading the cpio floppy?  this would make life a little
	simpler for me, at least.

	thanks again.

			-elh

			elh@spnet.com


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 16:38:43 1995
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To: uhclem@nemesis.lonestar.org (Frank Durda IV)
cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, nate@bsd.coe.montana.edu
Subject: Re: Still need bdev major number assignment 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Feb 95 16:56:00 CST."
             <m0ratPW-0004vpC@nemesis.lonestar.org> 
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 16:38:30 -0800
Message-ID: <10423.791944710@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.org>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

> I am in the final stages of debugging a driver for the Matsushita CD-ROM
> drive (CR-562 & CR-563) for use with FreeBSD.  This is the drive with
> the proprietary interface that you find on SoundBlaster audio
> cards (sometimes called the Creative/Panasonic interface), as well as
> SB-clone audio cards and standalone CD-ROM interface cards bundled with
> the drives.

Right!  We *need* this driver! :-)

I think, however, that this has already been allocated and reserved in
advance for whomever did the Soundblaster CD driver, and this looks
like it's you! :-)

Bdev:
        { pcdopen,      pcdclose,       pcdstrategy,    pcdioctl,       /*17*/
          pcddump,      pcdsize,        0 }

Cdev:
        { pcdopen,      pcdclose,       rawread,        nowrite,        /*46*/
          pcdioctl,     nostop,         nullreset,      NULL,   /* panasonic cd

It's labeled `panasonic' CD, but to my knowledge what was really meant
was Creative/Panasonic.  You'll notice that a Sony CDU driver is
already in the tree..  So just take 17 and 46, if you can, otherwise
if there's some reason why you can't use the already allocated entries
in conf.c then I'll be happy to create you new ones!

> This double-speed drive is marketed under the names Creative, Reveal,
> and Panasonic, and comes bundled with many types computers.  

> You can also read subcodes while playing audio (for CD+G and things)
> as well as read raw redbook (audio) tracks.

Hey, sounds like you did a nice, complete job on this!  This is great!
We've been wanting this driver for _a long time_!

> assigned.   Because of the number of these drives that are out there
> already, this driver could be *very* popular.   Someone at SCO is already
> asking if they can include a port of the driver in their UNIX product.

It is very popular!  I want this driver as soon as you can get it into
my hot, sweaty hands!

> If you need additional details, please let me know.  I would like to
> release something by the end of the month, and not having a major
> number will become a stumbling block pretty soon.   

As soon as you can - I'd really like to have this in 2.1!

> Also, please add me to the appropriate FreeBSD development group mailing
> lists.  I suspect my original request was lost, as I haven't seen a single
> piece of mail on the topic.

current@Freebsd.org is a good place to chat about these kinds of
things!  If you're keen to subscribe to it, just send a piece of mail
to majordomo@freebsd.org and say `subscribe current' somewhere in the
body of your message..  When you decide that's too much mail, then you
can send mail saying `unsubscribe current' to majordomo! :-)

Thanks for getting in touch with us about this - I'm very, very, very
keen to have this driver in FreeBSD!

Best regards,

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 16:40:39 1995
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
cc: elh@spnet.com
Subject: kernel limits
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 16:40:09 +0000
From: Ed Hudson <elh@p5.spnet.com>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk


	i'd like to request that you folks consider 2 changes
	to kernel limits to be incorporated in the general
	release.

	in order for me to do the sort of work that i do
	(chip design, cad development), the first thing
	that i do with each new release of FBSD is change these
	limits.  i know of other organizations using FBSD
	(or NBSD) in real engineering applications, and they
	have similar problems with the current limtis.

General Kernel Limits:


	1)	bump /usr/src/sys/sys/param.h:MAXSYMLNK	from 8 to
		something reasonable, such as 32.


		why:  i've worked in many environments where paths
		traverse 8 or more symlnks.  if you further try
		to simulate that environment from somewhere else
		(eg, home), that can add a few more symbolic links,
		etc.



	2)	bump up CHILD_MAX from 40 to something reasonable,
		say 128.

		why:	i've compiled large software systems that spawn
		a deep series of subshells and (then do final makes) and
		these can frequently run into MAXUPRC, which is set to
		CHILD_MAX.  also, simulating make-called-tools from other
		environments sometimes adds a few shell script levels...
		also, limit problems like this, encountered deep within
		scripts, can be hard for the unwary to see and debug.

		further, multi-desktop window managers, such as fvwm,
		encourage large process counts, by reducing the management
		complexity of many windows.


	so how 'bout it?

			-elh

			elh@spnet.com


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 18:30:32 1995
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
cc: elh@spnet.com
Subject: controllable-predictable slip interface units
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 18:29:59 +0000
From: Ed Hudson <elh@p5.spnet.com>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk


  howdy.

	old issue:
	management of multiple slip interfaces is simpler if the
	slip unit number returned by slattach is controllable

	i'd like to ask you folks to consider adding the following
	patch to the kernel slip interface, which makes the interface
	unit assigned by slattach controllable (well, predictable) under
	most circumstances.

	the patch takes the last four bits of the minor device number,
	and, if it is within the range of the slip interface indices,
	and that slip interface is available, it is returned as the
	slip unit.  if none of these conditions are met, the behaviour
	defaults to the current one: return the first available
	slip interface unit. ie,

		sl# = ((minor&0xf)<NSL && slip_free(minor&0xf)) ?
			(minor&0xf) :
			first_slip_free

	with this, patch, slattach applied to /dev/cuaa0 uses slip
	interface sl0, slattach applied to /dev/cuaa1 uses sl1, and
	so on.

	yes, this is an imperfect solution to this problem
	in that it places requirements on minor device numbers, and
	fails (softly, with the old behaviour) in the face of more
	than min(NSL,16) slip interfaces, etc, but i think that it is easier
	to use than the current scheme(s) typically employed.


	thanks for considering adding this patch.

			-elh
			elh@spnet.com

based on 950202-SNAP, /usr/src/sys/net/if_sl.c

*** Orig/if_sl.c	Sun Nov 27 15:29:57 1994
--- if_sl.c	Sat Feb  4 18:15:45 1995
***************
*** 264,274 ****
  
  	if (tp->t_line == SLIPDISC)
  		return (0);
! 
  	for (nsl = NSL, sc = sl_softc; --nsl >= 0; sc++)
  		if (sc->sc_ttyp == NULL) {
  			if (slinit(sc) == 0)
  				return (ENOBUFS);
  			tp->t_sc = (caddr_t)sc;
  			sc->sc_ttyp = tp;
  			sc->sc_if.if_baudrate = tp->t_ospeed;
--- 264,307 ----
  
  	if (tp->t_line == SLIPDISC)
  		return (0);
!   
! #ifdef	PREDICTABLE_SL
!     {
!     /*
!      * elh 9.19.1994
!      * make the interface number returned by slattach
!      * predictable - make it equal to the last four bits
!      * of the minor tty/cua number, if the last four bits are
!      * less than NSL
!      *
!      *        thus    cuaa0	->	sl0
!      *                ttyd1	->	sl1
!      *                cuaa2	->	sl2		(if NSL >= 3)
!      *                cuaa45	->	old algorithm.
!      *
!      * if the interface is already taken (how? nunits > NSL,
!      *   or multiports?) then
!      * the behaviour defaults to the old: it looks for
!      * the lowest available sl interface
!      */
!       unsigned int sl_num;
!       sl_num=	(unsigned int) dev;
! 	  sl_num=	sl_num & 0x0f;
! 	  if (sl_num < NSL) {
!         sc=	&(sl_softc[sl_num]);
!         if (sc->sc_ttyp == NULL) {
!           if (slinit(sc) == 0) { } else goto got_sl;
! 	    }
! 	  }
!     }
! #endif
  	for (nsl = NSL, sc = sl_softc; --nsl >= 0; sc++)
  		if (sc->sc_ttyp == NULL) {
  			if (slinit(sc) == 0)
  				return (ENOBUFS);
+ #ifdef	PREDICTABLE_SL
+ 		  got_sl:
+ #endif
  			tp->t_sc = (caddr_t)sc;
  			sc->sc_ttyp = tp;
  			sc->sc_if.if_baudrate = tp->t_ospeed;

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 18:57:16 1995
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	id AA16491; Sat, 4 Feb 95 17:55:10 PST
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 17:55:10 -0800 (PST)
From: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
To: Paul Traina <pst@cisco.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: popper
In-Reply-To: <199502050021.QAA11297@feta.cisco.com>
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950204175215.15644B-100000@efn.org>
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On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, Paul Traina wrote:

> > well...  I'm not sure this is the proper place to put this... but I have 
> > been having problems with popper... the major problem is that popper 
> > isn't truncating the pop spool temp file...  and basicly I was getting 
> > messages over and over again that I had already received...  so I decided 
> > to get a different pop mail server....
> 
> That's really strange, I've not seen any of these problems.
> Pardon the stupid question, but are you sure that you're properly executing
> the DELE commands and exiting properly with a QUIT command?
> 

yes... actually... the problem came up when using Minuet... and that is 
all I have used besides telneting in...  and both way have problems...  
and yes... I am sure that the dele command works as it is removed from 
the list if I remeber right...  it just might be a quirk in my system... 
but I also must say the pop3d compiles faster than popper... oh well...

I guestt I also forgot to mention that I put the file in the incoming 
dir... and it's name is "pop3d.newer.tar.gz"  and the newer is because I 
acidentally forgot to change the name of who did the port...  TTYL...

John-Mark Gurney

gurney_j@efn.org -or-
gurney_j@4j.lane.edu -or-
Fido: John-Mark Gurney @ 1:152/56.2


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 20:01:13 1995
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To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: popper 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 04 Feb 1995 17:55:10 PST."
             <Pine.SUN.3.91.950204175215.15644B-100000@efn.org> 
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 1995 20:00:38 -0800
From: Paul Traina <pst@cisco.com>
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Dumb question #3:

Is your pop server also a NFS server?  I have noticed some extremely
strange things with locking when I'm acting as a server.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 20:06:05 1995
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From: Morgan Davis <root@io.cts.com>
Message-Id: <199502050357.TAA09402@io.cts.com>
Subject: Error building xvnews, cuserid?
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 19:57:13 -0800 (PST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23]
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Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
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I just grabbed the three xview packages from ftp.freebsd.org and
installed them (and many of the sample programs give weird errors or
die, but that's another matter).

I grabbed so that I could build xvnews 2.3.  All builds fine, but the
link fails:

gcc -o xvnews -m486 -O2      -L/usr/X11R6/lib getdate.o main.o
server.o textsw_regexp.o xv_articles.o xv_err.o   xv_getauthor.o
xv_init.o xv_init_newsrc.o xv_newsrc.o   xv_parse_newsrc.o xv_post.o
xv_props.o xv_regex.o xv_search.o   xv_sort.o xv_stuff.o
xvnews_stubs.o xvnews_ui.o xv_drag.o xv_kill.o -Lguide -lguidexv
-Lguide/libguide -lguide -L/usr/openwin/lib -lxview -lolgx -lX11      
xv_post.o: Undefined symbol `_cuserid' referenced from text segment
xv_post.o: Undefined symbol `_cuserid' referenced from text segment
xv_post.o: Undefined symbol `_cuserid' referenced from text segment
xv_post.o: Undefined symbol `_cuserid' referenced from text segment
*** Error code 1

Stop.


There are calls to a function cuserid().  Any idea which library
should be included to allow it to build right?  Or some other
configuration setting that'll fix it?

uname -a reports:

FreeBSD io.cts.com 2.1.0-Development FreeBSD 2.1.0-Development #0: Sat
Jan 28 15:28:45 PST 1995     root@io.cts.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/IO i386

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 21:57:02 1995
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	id AA01532; Sat, 4 Feb 95 21:04:05 PST
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 21:04:05 -0800 (PST)
From: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
To: Paul Traina <pst@cisco.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: popper 
In-Reply-To: <199502050400.UAA14543@feta.cisco.com>
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On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, Paul Traina wrote:

> Dumb question #3:
> 
> Is your pop server also a NFS server?  I have noticed some extremely
> strange things with locking when I'm acting as a server.

actually... it is...  interesting that it could cause problems... I also 
have noticed that I haven't been able to connect with Sendmail from my 
dos machine...  I guess I should try to disable the NFS Server and see 
what happens...  Thanks for the suggestion... TTYL....

John-Mark Gurney

gurney_j@efn.org -or-
gurney_j@4j.lane.edu -or-
Fido: John-Mark Gurney @ 1:152/56.2


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 22:42:35 1995
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Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 17:39:59 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502050639.RAA10969@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, john@pyromania.apana.org.au
Subject: Re: TTY Names (finger/who)
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

>I have serial ports with the following names -:

>ttyd1
>ttyd10
>ttyd11

I assume the 10 and 11 really are 10 and 11 and not l0 and l1.

>Under finger or who - they all show up as d1 !

>Is this "normal" ?

Many utilities only support 2-letter names, and one of the letters is
'd' to distinguish dialin serial ports from ptys, vtys, etc.

Dialin serial ports are supposed to be named ttyd[0-9a-z] so that the
port number is only one letter.  Only 32 ports are supported by sio,
so /dev/MAKEDEV only creates ttyd[0-9a-v].

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 23:50:14 1995
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	id XAA00665; Sat, 4 Feb 1995 23:36:54 -0800
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 23:36:54 -0800
From: hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr)
Message-Id: <199502050736.XAA00665@netcom14.netcom.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, root@io.cts.com
Subject: Re:  Error building xvnews, cuserid?
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

Try -lcompat . The way I tend to find these undef symbols is 
to do first a grep on the libraries if I find a few of the libraries
which may have the symbol then I use nm.

	Happy Hacking,
	Amancio

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Feb  4 23:58:10 1995
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Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 18:56:38 +1100
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199502050756.SAA12171@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: elh@p5.spnet.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: kernel limits
Cc: elh@spnet.com
Sender: hackers-owner@FreeBSD.org
Precedence: bulk

>	1)	bump /usr/src/sys/sys/param.h:MAXSYMLNK	from 8 to
>		something reasonable, such as 32.

This limit should probably be changeable using sysctl.

>	2)	bump up CHILD_MAX from 40 to something reasonable,
>		say 128.

>		why:	i've compiled large software systems that spawn
>		a deep series of subshells and (then do final makes) and
>		these can frequently run into MAXUPRC, which is set to
>		CHILD_MAX.  also, simulating make-called-tools from other

CHILD_MAX is bogus.  It is only used to report a bogus limit to applications
in <limits.h> and to initialize MAXUPRC.  MAXUPRC is only the _initial_
value for the _current_ (soft) process limit.  The actual limit is the
_hard_ process limit, which is initially `maxproc' but can be reduced by
applications.  `maxproc' itself can be changed using
`sysctl -w kern.maxproc=whatever'.  Applications that need a larger limit
should use setrlimit() to increase their soft limit.  Systems that need
a larger limit should use sysctl in /etc/rc.local to increase `maxproc'.

There seem to be some coherency problems in practice.  Changing limits
with sysctl has no effect on previously set rlimits.  This seems best -
a process that has used getrlimit() or setrlimit should not have the
limits changed beneath it.  Rlimits are inherited, so changing limits
with sysctl has on effect on the rlimits for subsequently forked
processes, unless setrlimit() is used; however, the maxproc limit
is enforced as well as rlimit_cur[RLIMIT_NPROC], so the unchanged
rlimits may be too large.  Process limits apply to all processes
with the same uid.  This allows a deeply nested process to screw up
top-level processes by increasing its process limit and forking a
lot of processes - the limit for top-level processes isn't changed
so they may not be able to fork.

Bruce