From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Aug 29 01:39:11 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id BAA18205 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:39:11 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA18183 ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:39:04 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA20130 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:39:02 -0700 Received: from RockyMountain.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA15622 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:39:00 -0700 Received: by RockyMountain.rahul.net id AA11284 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:38:56 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:38:56 -0700 From: Pete Delaney Message-Id: <199508290838.AA11284@RockyMountain.rahul.net> To: freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? Cc: pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Forwarded: ... Re-Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? Re-Cc: freebsd-platforms, freebsd-hardware, port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG, tech-ports@NetBSD.ORG, netbsd-ports@NetBSD.ORG > For sparc, you want FreeBSD's first cousin NetBSD.. > see www.netbsd.org.. I briefly checked it out. It feels dissapointing to see the Free/Net BSD UNIX community splintered. > they have more platforms but we have a better install and cover PC > hardware better.. Sounds like the old X11R6 vs XFree disintegration. I see no reason why they should be different source trees. > you chose which you want.. I saw AT&T break up UNIX into a lot of individual releases and thought it was stupid. Same for X on the PC and everything else. This doesn't smell any different. -pete From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Aug 29 01:57:46 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id BAA19152 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:57:46 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id BAA19128 ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:57:41 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA20513 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:57:27 -0700 Received: from RockyMountain.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA17052 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:57:23 -0700 Received: by RockyMountain.rahul.net id AA11308 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:56:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:56:45 -0700 From: Pete Delaney Message-Id: <199508290856.AA11308@RockyMountain.rahul.net> To: davidg@root.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, port-sparc@netbsd.org, tech-ports@netbsd.org, netbsd-ports@netbsd.org, davem@caip.rutgers.edu, freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Hi Dave: > > >Anyone know if 'anyone' has raised any Legal issues with BSDI or Chris Torek > >on his SPARC Stuff in the BSD release. I was currious why it wasn't on > >the CD. With Dave Miller making big time progress on SPARC on Linux and > >Chris Torek's stuff I would think about three man months from now we could > >have FreeBSD running on the sun4c. > > That's correct. In fact, someone has already done a port of the Sparc code > to an earlier version of FreeBSD...but it would need a LOT of work to port the > port to -current. I don't suppose you know: 1. Who did it? 2. Where a copy of it is? 3. Why it wasn't integrated into the release? 4. What the problems are? 5. If some of the NetBSD guys would like to help. > I will get to it eventually (I have a Sparc sitting next to > me), but at the moment I'm too busy with other things in FreeBSD (namely, the > 2.1 release). Since the previous version didn't make it into the release, I wonder if have this be more than a one man show might help increase the odds. If we could get a few guys working on this I would think the odds greatly improved. I've got plenty of sparkstations that I can use here at RockyMountain. What have you been plaining to do? > > -DG -pete From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Aug 29 02:55:49 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id CAA21548 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 02:55:49 -0700 Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id CAA21542 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 02:55:47 -0700 Received: from corbin.Root.COM (corbin [198.145.90.34]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with ESMTP id CAA17651; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 02:54:48 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by corbin.Root.COM (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA19466; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 02:56:40 -0700 Message-Id: <199508290956.CAA19466@corbin.Root.COM> To: Pete Delaney cc: freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Aug 95 01:56:45 PDT." <199508290856.AA11308@RockyMountain.rahul.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 02:56:39 -0700 Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > That's correct. In fact, someone has already done a port of the Sparc code > > to an earlier version of FreeBSD...but it would need a LOT of work to port the > > port to -current. > >I don't suppose you know: > > 1. Who did it? Jack Vogel. jackv@freebsd.org. > 2. Where a copy of it is? Jack has the only copy. I haven't had any time to get a copy from him. > 3. Why it wasn't integrated into the release? Because it wasn't complete. The kernel boots and runs okay, but that's about it. The work will have to be almost completely re-done to get it working with -current. > 4. What the problems are? Too many to mention in an email message. > > I will get to it eventually (I have a Sparc sitting next to > > me), but at the moment I'm too busy with other things in FreeBSD (namely, the > > 2.1 release). > >Since the previous version didn't make it into the release, I wonder if have >this be more than a one man show might help increase the odds. If we could get >a few guys working on this I would think the odds greatly improved. I've got >plenty of sparkstations that I can use here at RockyMountain. What have you >been plaining to do? Of course having lots of people working on it would speed things along. On the other hand, it is not a trivial thing to do, there are very few people who can answer the hundreds of questions that will arise, and I personally don't have the time right now to answer them. If I did have the time, I'd just do the port myself. :-) -DG From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Aug 29 04:26:29 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id EAA24275 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:26:29 -0700 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id EAA24267 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:26:27 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA21836; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:26:12 -0700 To: Pete Delaney cc: davidg@Root.COM, davem@caip.rutgers.edu, freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:56:45 PDT." <199508290856.AA11308@RockyMountain.rahul.net> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:26:11 -0700 Message-ID: <21834.809695571@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > I don't suppose you know: Pete, Could you snip freebsd-hackers out of this cc list please? `freebsd-platforms' more than covers the various people actually interested in SPARC. Your cc'ing the NetBSD porting groups was also a singularly unpolitic thing to do, surprising even for you! You think they're going to want to assist FreeBSD in helping to "beat" them in their only area of comparative strength? Please! You're a very poor judge of human nature if you can't see that. Please try limit the scope of this discussion in your enthusiasm if you actually want to see this happen rather than just sparking a flame war. Jordan From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Aug 29 09:22:24 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id JAA13785 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:22:24 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA13779 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:22:23 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA09054 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:22:20 -0700 Received: from RockyMountain.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA02077 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:22:16 -0700 Received: by RockyMountain.rahul.net id AA11734 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:22:13 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:22:13 -0700 From: Pete Delaney Message-Id: <199508291622.AA11734@RockyMountain.rahul.net> To: davidg@root.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? Cc: freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org, pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > > > That's correct. In fact, someone has already done a port of the Sparc code > > > to an earlier version of FreeBSD...but it would need a LOT of work to port the > > > port to -current. > > > >I don't suppose you know: > > > > 1. Who did it? > > Jack Vogel. jackv@freebsd.org. > > > 2. Where a copy of it is? > > Jack has the only copy. I haven't had any time to get a copy from him. Good luck... > > > 3. Why it wasn't integrated into the release? > > Because it wasn't complete. The kernel boots and runs okay, but that's > about it. The work will have to be almost completely re-done to get it working > with -current. > > > 4. What the problems are? > > Too many to mention in an email message. Take your time. > > > > I will get to it eventually (I have a Sparc sitting next to > > > me), but at the moment I'm too busy with other things in FreeBSD (namely, the > > > 2.1 release). > > > >Since the previous version didn't make it into the release, I wonder if have > >this be more than a one man show might help increase the odds. If we could get > >a few guys working on this I would think the odds greatly improved. I've got > >plenty of sparkstations that I can use here at RockyMountain. What have you > >been plaining to do? > > Of course having lots of people working on it would speed things along. On > the other hand, it is not a trivial thing to do, there are very few people who > can answer the hundreds of questions that will arise, and I personally don't > have the time right now to answer them. If I did have the time, I'd just do > the port myself. :-) I think I may be able to answer some of the questions, I've been working on SPARC for some time now; especially the sun4m/Ross stuff. > > -DG > From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Aug 29 17:22:34 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id RAA00150 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 17:22:34 -0700 Received: from gndrsh.aac.dev.com (gndrsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id RAA00144 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 17:22:30 -0700 Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by gndrsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA04815; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 17:22:09 -0700 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199508300022.RAA04815@gndrsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? To: pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net (Pete Delaney) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 17:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199508290838.AA11284@RockyMountain.rahul.net> from "Pete Delaney" at Aug 29, 95 01:38:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3248 Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk [One list only please!!!!] > > Forwarded: ... > > Re-Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? > Re-Cc: freebsd-platforms, freebsd-hardware, port-sparc@NetBSD.ORG, > tech-ports@NetBSD.ORG, netbsd-ports@NetBSD.ORG > > > > For sparc, you want FreeBSD's first cousin NetBSD.. > > see www.netbsd.org.. > > I briefly checked it out. It feels dissapointing to see the Free/Net > BSD UNIX community splintered. Haveing been around these groups for 2 years (yes, go read the NetBSD 0.8 release notes, I was a part of that effort) I do not see them as ``splintered''. The fill different needs. NetBSD is much more of a research type of operation. They do not care a whole lot about providing finally polished releases of there code, though there is nothing serious wrong with there releases, they don't see a need to spend major efforts on installation tools, or end user niceness. Nor do they present anything as complete as the FreeBSD ports collection. FreeBSD on the other hand is interested in polished releases with maximal end user comfort. A lot of FreeBSD's technological advancements have come from the research vehicle of NetBSD where to code is developed and proven to be a workable solution. At many levels there is direct cooperation between NetBSD/FreeBSD developers and perhaps it is time for someone to start putting forth a clearer picture of just what has been going on if you take a close look at things. IMHO, the 2 groups are _good_ things to have around. And expect FreeBSD in the future to continue to graft things into its tree from the NetBSD tree as they come to bear fruit. > > > they have more platforms but we have a better install and cover PC > > hardware better.. > > Sounds like the old X11R6 vs XFree disintegration. I see no reason why > they should be different source trees. It is very hard to do ``research'' in a tree that is always been worked on for ``production release'' status. We have a heard enough time now trying to work in a branched cvs tree to for the purpose of allowing developement continue forward while the release team works on spit shinning the code for production release. > > you chose which you want.. > > I saw AT&T break up UNIX into a lot of individual releases and thought > it was stupid. Same for X on the PC and everything else. This doesn't > smell any different. Haveing had my noise buried in it for as long as I have it smells quite different. The future may bring to bear other fruit in the world of Unix source code trees as well, NetBSD/FreeBSD/Linux are not going to have this field for ever. One constant in this arena is that of change, it always happens :-). Yea, AT & T caused a lot of Bell Labs derived source trees to be created, by now they have sold it all off, and the trademark as well as real control over ``Unix'' has been handed to what looks to be a decent organizaion, and just maybe the 1178 spec will make things fly towards at least a unified standard to base your code against. We will, IMHO, never in our live times see a single unix source base. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Aug 29 18:50:12 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id SAA03117 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 18:50:12 -0700 Received: from kesa26.Kesa.COM ([192.88.116.15]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id SAA03103 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 18:49:55 -0700 Received: by kesa26.Kesa.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03506; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 18:39:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 18:39:07 -0700 From: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM (Pete Delaney) Message-Id: <9508300139.AA03506@kesa26.Kesa.COM> To: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? Cc: freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org, pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I briefly checked it out. It feels dissapointing to see the Free/Net > > BSD UNIX community splintered. > > Haveing been around these groups for 2 years (yes, go read the NetBSD 0.8 > release notes, I was a part of that effort) I do not see them as > ``splintered''. The fill different needs. NetBSD is much more of a > research type of operation. They do not care a whole lot about providing > finally polished releases of there code, though there is nothing serious > wrong with there releases, they don't see a need to spend major efforts > on installation tools, or end user niceness. Nor do they present anything > as complete as the FreeBSD ports collection. Looks like it's time to install NetBSD on one of my SparcStations one of these days. I'll check out the Release Notes. It's intesting to know that NetBSD is more of the research group and FreeBSD the release group. > FreeBSD on the other hand is interested in polished releases with maximal > end user comfort. > > A lot of FreeBSD's technological advancements have come from the research > vehicle of NetBSD where to code is developed and proven to be a workable > solution. But why haven't the various arch's been brought over to FreeBSD. > At many levels there is direct cooperation between NetBSD/FreeBSD developers > and perhaps it is time for someone to start putting forth a clearer picture > of just what has been going on if you take a close look at things. That would be nice. > IMHO, the 2 groups are _good_ things to have around. And expect FreeBSD > in the future to continue to graft things into its tree from the NetBSD > tree as they come to bear fruit. > > > > > > they have more platforms but we have a better install and cover PC > > > hardware better.. > > > > Sounds like the old X11R6 vs XFree disintegration. I see no reason why > > they should be different source trees. > > It is very hard to do ``research'' in a tree that is always been worked > on for ``production release'' status. We have a heard enough time now > trying to work in a branched cvs tree to for the purpose of allowing > developement continue forward while the release team works on spit shinning > the code for production release. Are both groups now using cvs? > > > > you chose which you want.. > > > > I saw AT&T break up UNIX into a lot of individual releases and thought > > it was stupid. Same for X on the PC and everything else. This doesn't > > smell any different. > > Haveing had my noise buried in it for as long as I have it smells quite > different. I wonder if you actually appreciated AT&T makeing a seperate release tape for sparc, i386, and other archs. As far as X, I find it nicer to have 1 CD set for both SPARC and Intel arch's. I do see the Xfree integration as being incomplete. > The future may bring to bear other fruit in the world of > Unix source code trees as well, NetBSD/FreeBSD/Linux are not going to > have this field for ever. One constant in this arena is that of change, > it always happens :-). Yea, I think it's healthy. Like DNA evolution. Perhaps merging source tree's is a bit like sex, it bears a new creature with new features, often better, hopefully healthier, sometimes a monster. Maybe it's time for a little evolution. > > Yea, AT & T caused a lot of Bell Labs derived source trees to be created, > by now they have sold it all off, and the trademark as well as real control > over ``Unix'' has been handed to what looks to be a decent organizaion, and > just maybe the 1178 spec will make things fly towards at least a unified > standard to base your code against. We will, IMHO, never in our live times > see a single unix source base. Actually I see a unified standard more like wanting a pure super race as some of the more racially pure/homogenious cultures were dreaming about a few decades ago. Clearly it's nice to have a variety of tools/creatures for different needs/nitches; like cars for different occasions. Now with Sun Microsystems focusing on the commercial market and allowing SunOS and XNeWS to rust in the graveyard I see an opportunity for a CD publishing outfit like Walnut Creek to produce a CD that can be used on other archectures other than just Intel that has most, if not all of the applications that are in FreeBSD. > > -- > Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com > Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD > -pete From owner-freebsd-platforms Tue Aug 29 20:34:49 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id UAA06292 for platforms-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:34:49 -0700 Received: from gndrsh.aac.dev.com (gndrsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id UAA06283 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:34:45 -0700 Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by gndrsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA05746; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:34:28 -0700 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199508300334.UAA05746@gndrsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? To: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM (Pete Delaney) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org, pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net In-Reply-To: <9508300139.AA03506@kesa26.Kesa.COM> from "Pete Delaney" at Aug 29, 95 06:39:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 7104 Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > I briefly checked it out. It feels dissapointing to see the Free/Net > > > BSD UNIX community splintered. > > > > Haveing been around these groups for 2 years (yes, go read the NetBSD 0.8 > > release notes, I was a part of that effort) I do not see them as > > ``splintered''. The fill different needs. NetBSD is much more of a > > research type of operation. They do not care a whole lot about providing > > finally polished releases of there code, though there is nothing serious > > wrong with there releases, they don't see a need to spend major efforts > > on installation tools, or end user niceness. Nor do they present anything > > as complete as the FreeBSD ports collection. > > Looks like it's time to install NetBSD on one of my SparcStations one of > these days. I'll check out the Release Notes. It's intesting to know that > NetBSD is more of the research group and FreeBSD the release group. ^^^ ^^^ Better word would have been ``a''. You probably coupled that a little tighter than the relation is, we do not necessarly take the NetBSD code wholesale and polish it up for release, we pick and choose things we see that we like and have the time to bring over (they do the same with the FreeBSD code :-)). > > FreeBSD on the other hand is interested in polished releases with maximal > > end user comfort. > > > > A lot of FreeBSD's technological advancements have come from the research > > vehicle of NetBSD where to code is developed and proven to be a workable > > solution. > > But why haven't the various arch's been brought over to FreeBSD. FreeBSD does not have the man power nor the equipment resources to make this a practical thing to do at this time. > > At many levels there is direct cooperation between NetBSD/FreeBSD developers > > and perhaps it is time for someone to start putting forth a clearer picture > > of just what has been going on if you take a close look at things. > > That would be nice. > > > > IMHO, the 2 groups are _good_ things to have around. And expect FreeBSD > > in the future to continue to graft things into its tree from the NetBSD > > tree as they come to bear fruit. > > > > > > > > > they have more platforms but we have a better install and cover PC > > > > hardware better.. > > > > > > Sounds like the old X11R6 vs XFree disintegration. I see no reason why > > > they should be different source trees. > > > > It is very hard to do ``research'' in a tree that is always been worked > > on for ``production release'' status. We have a heard enough time now > > trying to work in a branched cvs tree to for the purpose of allowing > > developement continue forward while the release team works on spit shinning > > the code for production release. > > Are both groups now using cvs? Both groups have been using cvs to manage there code from day 1. > > > > > > you chose which you want.. > > > > > > I saw AT&T break up UNIX into a lot of individual releases and thought > > > it was stupid. Same for X on the PC and everything else. This doesn't > > > smell any different. > > > > Haveing had my noise buried in it for as long as I have it smells quite > > different. > > I wonder if you actually appreciated AT&T makeing a seperate release tape > for sparc, i386, and other archs. As far as X, I find it nicer to have 1 CD > set for both SPARC and Intel arch's. I do see the Xfree integration as > being incomplete. Perhaps you should try to find out more about the reasoning that was behind AT&T's release mechansims that caused them to release the product the way they did. It was not practical to make a tape that was loadable by multiple machines (almost impossible for i386 vs anyone else, almost impossible for sparc vs anyone else, etc). OS's are quite different beasts than applications when it comes to release media. X is an application by my definition of one. > > > The future may bring to bear other fruit in the world of > > Unix source code trees as well, NetBSD/FreeBSD/Linux are not going to > > have this field for ever. One constant in this arena is that of change, > > it always happens :-). > > Yea, I think it's healthy. Like DNA evolution. Perhaps merging source tree's > is a bit like sex, it bears a new creature with new features, often better, > hopefully healthier, sometimes a monster. Maybe it's time for a little > evolution. Evolution has been occuring in both source trees from day 1, at times we had people who commited code to both trees, though that has pretty much died by the way side due to the simple fact that it is very hard for a serious developer to keep up to speed on both systems as the rate of evolution is becoming very rapid due to the number of people working on the respective code bases. > > > > Yea, AT & T caused a lot of Bell Labs derived source trees to be created, > > by now they have sold it all off, and the trademark as well as real control > > over ``Unix'' has been handed to what looks to be a decent organizaion, and > > just maybe the 1178 spec will make things fly towards at least a unified > > standard to base your code against. We will, IMHO, never in our live times > > see a single unix source base. > > Actually I see a unified standard more like wanting a pure super race > as some of the more racially pure/homogenious cultures were dreaming about > a few decades ago. Clearly it's nice to have a variety of tools/creatures > for different needs/nitches; like cars for different occasions. Now with > Sun Microsystems focusing on the commercial market and allowing SunOS > and XNeWS to rust in the graveyard I see an opportunity for a CD publishing > outfit like Walnut Creek to produce a CD that can be used on other > archectures other than just Intel that has most, if not all of the > applications that are in FreeBSD. I'll toss a small marketing point to you, the sum total of all the workstations sold in the US last year does not meet the number of PC shipped in a 2 week period by _one_ large OEM. Tell me again where the market is??? I'll take 0.1% of the PC market over 10% of the workstation market any day of the week... I am not anti workstation, quite the contrary, I help companies spend billons of dollars a year in that market, and IMHO, FreeBSD does not belong anyplace close to that world as we are not going to get the $10K to $100K software package writers to port to a <$100 OS. Even the likes of BSDI are not going to ever see any of that market segment, IMHO. It's neat and cool that I can run NetBSD on my Alpha, but I doubt very much that I can load up a copy of Synopsis and run a 5 million gate logic synthisis job on it. Or fire up a copy of Mentor's layout tools, or Valid's or Cadences or anyone elses tools on any given supported platform. (The don't have a PA-RISC port for HP9000/7xx's or I could tell you this for sure as I would have tried it :-)). -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-platforms Wed Aug 30 01:00:50 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id BAA17374 for platforms-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 01:00:50 -0700 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id BAA17338 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 01:00:36 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA02273; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 00:59:12 -0700 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" cc: pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net, davidg@Root.COM, davem@caip.rutgers.edu, freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Aug 1995 17:58:09 PDT." <199508300058.RAA04955@gndrsh.aac.dev.com> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 00:59:12 -0700 Message-ID: <2271.809769552@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > Could I ask (well, I suppose I can ask, but might not get) that the > idea that ``FreeBSD'' and ``NetBSD'' are compeating for market share > simply die in the minds of folks, and on the mailling lists. I don't think you'll get it, and not because of human intransience but from the simple facts of reality. YOU may not see the two groups as in competition, but I can guarantee you that many influential members of both camps certainly do (they know who they are!). You don't go to USENIX very often so you don't see what happens when members of the two groups collide (especially after some of them have been drinking :-) and berate one other, after which usually follows a general free-for-all since other passers by, hearing the conversation, join in to beat up BOTH sides for not getting together and just having ONE BSD. It's a mess and you're not going to fix it by playing ostrich or asking others to do the same, I do know that much. Jordan From owner-freebsd-platforms Wed Aug 30 11:36:21 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id LAA20220 for platforms-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:36:21 -0700 Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id LAA20195 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:36:04 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA18904; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:32:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199508301832.LAA18904@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? To: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 11:32:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: pete@kesa26.kesa.com, freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org, pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net In-Reply-To: <199508300334.UAA05746@gndrsh.aac.dev.com> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Aug 29, 95 08:34:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2719 Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I wonder if you actually appreciated AT&T makeing a seperate release tape > > for sparc, i386, and other archs. As far as X, I find it nicer to have 1 CD > > set for both SPARC and Intel arch's. I do see the Xfree integration as > > being incomplete. > > Perhaps you should try to find out more about the reasoning that was behind > AT&T's release mechansims that caused them to release the product the way > they did. It was not practical to make a tape that was loadable by multiple > machines (almost impossible for i386 vs anyone else, almost impossible for > sparc vs anyone else, etc). The reason was their source tree layout mechanism. One can only do developement in an extracted source tree, and an extracted source tree has to be architecture dependent. This is why "the keys to the source tree" were so sought after at Novell USG when I was there. It's nearly impossible to do developement that is applicable to more than one platform without involving more than one team, which means interminable meetings. It took me 6 months to increase a reserved area in an unexposed kernel structure by 128 bytes. I kid you not. 8-(. > I am not anti workstation, quite the contrary, I help companies spend billons > of dollars a year in that market, and IMHO, FreeBSD does not belong anyplace > close to that world as we are not going to get the $10K to $100K software > package writers to port to a <$100 OS. Even the likes of BSDI are not > going to ever see any of that market segment, IMHO. With respect, this is why you *MUST* suffort binary compatability with the native OS for the platform when you replace the OS. Supporting a common ABI buys you this, even if the companies don't port to you specificially. One potential market is the one Altos used to have in the x86 Xenix market: Everyone used Altos systems to do developement because they had the most robust environemtn of all the vendors. Altos-generated binaries would run on SCO, Cubix, Interactive, and uPort boxes. SCO binaries would only run on SCO. If you want to be the developement platform of choice (assuming that as a goal), then you ensure that by using your platform, the developers have less work than if using any other platform. Most commercial OS's have their own "unique" interfaces as "value add" which in effect simply unportabalize code. This is to the vendors advantage in that it plays down the commoditization of hardware. Many hardware vendors are only distinguised by the quality of their OS and the applications they've convinced vendors to port -- Sun, HP, DEC. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-platforms Wed Aug 30 12:16:37 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id MAA25717 for platforms-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:16:37 -0700 Received: from kesa26.Kesa.COM ([192.88.116.15]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA25696 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:16:15 -0700 Received: by kesa26.Kesa.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA04142; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:00:16 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:00:16 -0700 From: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM (Pete Delaney) Message-Id: <9508301900.AA04142@kesa26.Kesa.COM> To: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? Cc: pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net, davidg@Root.COM, davem@caip.rutgers.edu, freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan: > > Could I ask (well, I suppose I can ask, but might not get) that the > > idea that ``FreeBSD'' and ``NetBSD'' are compeating for market share > > simply die in the minds of folks, and on the mailling lists. > > I don't think you'll get it, and not because of human intransience but > from the simple facts of reality. YOU may not see the two groups as > in competition, but I can guarantee you that many influential members > of both camps certainly do (they know who they are!). You don't go to > USENIX very often so you don't see what happens when members of the > two groups collide (especially after some of them have been drinking > :-) and berate one other, after which usually follows a general > free-for-all since other passers by, hearing the conversation, join in > to beat up BOTH sides for not getting together and just having ONE > BSD. It's a mess and you're not going to fix it by playing ostrich or > asking others to do the same, I do know that much. Brains come in different styles, some are highly integrated, other are more like split personalities, when the guys have a few beers the frontal cortex gets hit the hardest and you tend to see the other parts of our personalities. Your observations at the USENIX conference is evidence that their is competition in the lower brain function but it doesn't mean that their complete personaility is competitive, their may be a part of their personailty that is seeking to see the true nature of things hiding in their frontal cortex that you are ignoring. Also this is not all of the "influential members". Since software can be a rather abstract subject, I suspect the frontal cortex is highly involved, so I wouldn't take your observations of the guys while they are plastered as a clear insight into their true nature, but rather only a view of the more primal part of their nature that is in the parts of their minds that have better vascularization and are less dammaged by this drug. If you were to observe them under the influince of other drugs I think you would get other perceptions of their true nature. -pete From owner-freebsd-platforms Wed Aug 30 13:24:09 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id NAA28823 for platforms-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:24:09 -0700 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA28815 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:24:02 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA06179; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:20:45 -0700 To: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM (Pete Delaney) cc: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com, pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net, davidg@Root.COM, davem@caip.rutgers.edu, freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:00:16 PDT." <9508301900.AA04142@kesa26.Kesa.COM> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:20:45 -0700 Message-ID: <6176.809814045@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > dammaged by this drug. If you were to observe them under the influince of > other drugs I think you would get other perceptions of their true nature. Well, I'll be sure to spike a few strategic drinks with these 500 micrograms of "Purple Rainbow Blaster" I've been saving for a special occasion at the next USENIX then. Thanks for the tip! [In fact, it's one of the finest pieces of advice I've ever received. No, really! I may, in fact, archive this message and form a small religious sect who's only goal in life is to worship you and your every written word, starting with these!] Jordan From owner-freebsd-platforms Wed Aug 30 14:14:25 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id OAA01646 for platforms-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 14:14:25 -0700 Received: from kesa26.Kesa.COM ([192.88.116.15]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id OAA01626 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 14:14:13 -0700 Received: by kesa26.Kesa.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA04256; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:57:16 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 13:57:16 -0700 From: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM (Pete Delaney) Message-Id: <9508302057.AA04256@kesa26.Kesa.COM> To: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? Cc: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com, pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net, davidg@Root.COM, davem@caip.rutgers.edu, freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan: > > dammaged by this drug. If you were to observe them under the influince of > > other drugs I think you would get other perceptions of their true nature. > > Well, I'll be sure to spike a few strategic drinks with these 500 > micrograms of "Purple Rainbow Blaster" I've been saving for a special > occasion at the next USENIX then. Thanks for the tip! > > [In fact, it's one of the finest pieces of advice I've ever received. > No, really! I may, in fact, archive this message and form a small > religious sect who's only goal in life is to worship you and your > every written word, starting with these!] Your sarcastic sharp edge hasn't dulled over the past year. From owner-freebsd-platforms Wed Aug 30 17:09:43 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id RAA09357 for platforms-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 17:09:43 -0700 Received: from caipfs.rutgers.edu (caipfs.rutgers.edu [128.6.37.100]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id RAA09351 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 17:09:41 -0700 Received: from huahaga.rutgers.edu (huahaga.rutgers.edu [128.6.155.53]) by caipfs.rutgers.edu (8.6.9+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq+grosshack/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA21554; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:07:47 -0400 Received: (davem@localhost) by huahaga.rutgers.edu (8.6.9+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq+grosshack/8.6.9) id UAA03010; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:07:47 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:07:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199508310007.UAA03010@huahaga.rutgers.edu> From: "David S. Miller" To: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM CC: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net, davidg@Root.COM, freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <9508301900.AA04142@kesa26.Kesa.COM> (pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM) Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? Sender: platforms-owner@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Can I please request for the last time to be taken off of the CC: list of this discussion. Thanks... Later, David S. Miller davem@caip.rutgers.edu From owner-freebsd-platforms Thu Aug 31 16:45:03 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id QAA01569 for platforms-outgoing; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:45:03 -0700 Received: from eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (eikon.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de [129.187.42.3]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA01555 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:44:59 -0700 Received: from vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de [129.187.142.36]) by eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA05740; Fri, 1 Sep 1995 01:43:52 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA02225; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 02:37:06 +0200 Message-Id: <199508310037.CAA02225@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de> X-Authentication-Warning: vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM (Pete Delaney) cc: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com, freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org, pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Aug 1995 18:39:07 PDT." <9508300139.AA03506@kesa26.Kesa.COM> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 02:37:05 +0200 From: "Julian Stacey " Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Pete, Re. > Are both groups now using cvs? & other comparitive questions ... As you'r new to both Net & Free BSD lists, & don't currently run either, allow me to brief you: NetBSD members are on record as preferring to speak for themselves, & not have FreeBSD people do it for them, Some members of NetBSD monitor the FreeBSD lists, Some members of FreeBSD probably monitor the NetBSD lists, To avoid flame wars we try not to summarise the other group's views, actions etc. Please ask them direct whatever you want, (but don't cross post to freebsd, as that would contravene our policy Re cross posts.) If you wish to install NetBSD on your Sparc, & use it as a base, & then start a port of FreeBSD to the Sparc, or if you want to use the native Sun OS as a base, & port FreeBSD to the Sparc, we on freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org will be interested to read progress reports. If you work through our tree, (tracking our current src tree as it evolves) & if you can offer nicely presented diff -c lists ready to cvs commit to our master sources, I guess people here will be happy to see someone working on a sparc port, & may likely be prepared to commit stuff :-) But until you grab Free &/or Net BSD sources, this is just futures for now ... All the best, Julian S From owner-freebsd-platforms Thu Aug 31 20:57:24 1995 Return-Path: platforms-owner Received: (from majordom@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) id UAA10625 for platforms-outgoing; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:57:24 -0700 Received: from kesa26.Kesa.COM (kesa015.kesa.com [192.88.116.15]) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.6.11/8.6.6) with SMTP id UAA10619 for ; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:57:20 -0700 Received: by kesa26.Kesa.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06598; Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:44:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 20:44:59 -0700 From: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM (Pete Delaney) Message-Id: <9509010344.AA06598@kesa26.Kesa.COM> To: pete@kesa26.Kesa.COM, jhs@vector.eikon.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de Subject: Re: FreeBSD CD-ROM 2.0.5 - Any SPARC Porting Underway? Cc: rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com, freebsd-platforms@freebsd.org, pete@RockyMountain.rahul.net X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: platforms-owner@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > Pete, > > Re. > > Are both groups now using cvs? > > & other comparitive questions ... > > As you'r new to both Net & Free BSD lists, & don't currently run either, > allow me to brief you: thanks > > NetBSD members are on record as preferring to speak for themselves, > & not have FreeBSD people do it for them, good. > > Some members of NetBSD monitor the FreeBSD lists, > Some members of FreeBSD probably monitor the NetBSD lists, > > To avoid flame wars we try not to summarise the other group's views, > actions etc. > Please ask them direct whatever you want, (but don't cross post to freebsd, > as that would contravene our policy Re cross posts.) I find the cross post policy a bit myoptic. Oh well. > If you wish to install NetBSD on your Sparc, & use it as a base, > & then start a port of FreeBSD to the Sparc, Yea I thought I'd give it a try as soon as I'm done this X-Server Touch Screen Hack. > or if you want to use the native Sun OS as a base, & port FreeBSD to the > Sparc, we on freebsd-platforms@FreeBSD.org will be interested to read > progress reports. I will likely do this in parallel on SunOS 4.1.4 and/or 4.1.3_U1. > If you work through our tree, (tracking our current src tree as it evolves) > & if you can offer nicely presented diff -c lists ready to cvs commit to our > master sources, I guess people here will be happy to see someone working on > a sparc port, & may likely be prepared to commit stuff :-) That would be nice. > But until you grab Free &/or Net BSD sources, this is just futures for now... I have the latest CD, 2.0.5, should be a good starting point. I hope to ftp the NetBSD and Linux stuff very soon now. Perhaps this evening while I'm hacking. > All the best, You too. Any word on how Angelika is doing? > > Julian S -pete