From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 08:22:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA06147 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.id.net (root@server.id.net [199.125.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA06142 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rls@localhost) by server.id.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA25348; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:23:55 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Shady Message-Id: <199603101623.LAA25348@server.id.net> Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 11:23:54 -0500 (EST) Cc: davidg@Root.COM, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199603100732.JAA01086@grumble.grondar.za> from "Mark Murray" at Mar 10, 96 09:32:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >Is it just me or are all of you seeing a bloody slow connection today > > >(Saturday afternoon, 9th March, GMT-0200)? > > > > > >A traceroute shows that most packets are getting lost in bbnplanet(?). > > > > > >Any clues/ides? > > > > There is a problem in the Stanford<->Berkeley connectivity that has been > > around for about 2 months and fluctuates in severity. We reported the problem > > to BBN Planet over a month ago but no action on it was taken on it. Next week > > I'll be switching WC CDROM to a new service provider. > > HOORAY!! Wow.. That's great news, I thought I might be the only one loosing 25%-50% of my packets to WC (at certain times), and getting throughputs in the low bytes per second, instead of K... ;) -- Rob === _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ Innovative Data Services Serving South-Eastern Michigan Internet Service Provider / Hardware Sales / Consulting Services Voice: (810)855-0404 / Fax: (810)855-3268 / Web: http://www.id.net From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 10:24:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA12036 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:24:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12029 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ole.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@ole.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.22.3]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA06639; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 19:24:31 +0100 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA00483; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 16:44:07 +0100 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 16:44:07 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199603101544.QAA00483@campa.panke.de> To: davidg@Root.COM CC: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: David Greenman's message of Sat, 09 Mar 1996 17:17:21 -0800 Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <199603100117.RAA13270@Root.COM> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > There is a problem in the Stanford<->Berkeley connectivity that has been >around for about 2 months and fluctuates in severity. We reported the problem >to BBN Planet over a month ago but no action on it was taken on it. Next week >I'll be switching WC CDROM to a new service provider. How much WC paid for connectivity? Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 10:30:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA12179 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA12174 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA14718; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:30:34 -0800 Message-Id: <199603101830.KAA14718@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Wolfram Schneider cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 Mar 1996 16:44:07 +0100." <199603101544.QAA00483@campa.panke.de> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 10:30:34 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> There is a problem in the Stanford<->Berkeley connectivity that has been >>around for about 2 months and fluctuates in severity. We reported the problem >>to BBN Planet over a month ago but no action on it was taken on it. Next week >>I'll be switching WC CDROM to a new service provider. > >How much WC paid for connectivity? I don't know what you mean - the cost of connectivity to BBN Planet or the cost of the new service? In both cases it is part of a package deal that includes 100Mbps co-location service for wcarchive - which is the majority of the cost. The new service is costing about $10K/month total. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 10 14:35:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA25023 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24987 for ; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA00325; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:34:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199603102234.OAA00325@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: chuckr@Glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Act Now ! In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:05:18 MST." <199603081705.KAA17161@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:34:19 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To Terry 8) San Jose Mercury News , March 9, 1996: Internet Phone carriers criticized: The ability to use personal computers to place long-distance phone calls over the internet is still in its infancy, with first software hitting store shelves one a year ago. But smaller long-distance telephone companies already are sensing a serious threat to their bottom line. A trade group representing about 130 small long-distance providers asked the Federal Communications Commission this week to stop this kind of communications and study how to regulate it. "There is something fundamentally wrong , from our members perspective, that somebody can can talk over the Internet for free. They are giving away our product", said Charles H. Helein, general counsel of America's Carriers Telecommunications Association in Mclean, Va., which represents carriers with revenues of less than $100 million" But the software is advancing despite ACTA's fears and protests.... (further product announcements on audio over the internet designed to make the issue even worse for the small telcos) Enjoy, Amancio >>> Terry Lambert said: > > I am a little puzzled. I saw your notice on hackers, moving this to chat > > (quite correctly) saying that Chuck is wrong, and message unit based > > charging must die. I think I have that correctly, anyway. I'm confused, > > because I was never arguing that message based charging was anything at > > all, I was arguing that the internet can't absorb even a tiny, tiny > > fraction of the voice traffic (that nows runs on dedicated voice > > networks). I don't see where the topic changed, but if it has, to that > > topic, I'm not holding any position there at all, and I don't want to > > argue it. Maybe I should let this drop here. > > Well, I can tell you that I think circuit switching is in fact more > expensive than packet switching. > > The message unit charges argument is just a supporting argument as a > hedge against a claim that the cost of moving to packet switching > exceeds the cost of keeping circuit switching (should you bring that > up as a counter). > > My point is that I think the Internet will subsume the phone networks, > even if you are right about its current capacity, since that capacity > will increase over time. > > I'm not very worried about the internet overloading, nor about the > VON paranoia, since I think both ideas ignore the economics of the > situation. The voice and data networks *will* be integrated, and > there *will* be people with the capability of not generating audit > records for connection creation and tear-down, so billing by > connection will go away. > > I think the ability to bill by connect + message units is the *only* > reason things are still circuit switched -- it's not the inability > of packet switched networks (like the Internet) to handle the load, > that incents them, it's the ability of the telephone company to > keep on doing business as usual. > > > > I was started because of that Voice Over Net article that was posted, > > and the (un)reasoning over the telco's response to what I saw as a > > non-issue. Since it couldn't possibly happen, why would they make a fuss > > over stopping the impossible (today's impossible being, of course, > > tomorrow's obvious path). It's impossible today, why worry it? When it > > becomes possible, it's going to happen anyways, because of all the > > unregulation. > > I see it as a non-issue because I think it's inevitable. > > So at least we agree, it's a non-issue. 8-) 8-). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 10:13:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA00277 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00272 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:13:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.12]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA17329; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:12:28 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Received: (from wosch@localhost) by caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.7.2/8.7.2) id TAA12496; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:12:23 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:12:23 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199603111812.TAA12496@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> To: davidg@Root.COM Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC In-Reply-To: <199603101830.KAA14718@Root.COM> References: <199603101544.QAA00483@campa.panke.de> <199603101830.KAA14718@Root.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Conversion: prohibited Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman writes: >>How much WC paid for connectivity? > > I don't know what you mean - the cost of connectivity to BBN Planet or >the cost of the new service? In both cases it is part of a package deal that >includes 100Mbps co-location service for wcarchive - which is the majority of >the cost. The new service is costing about $10K/month total. Cheap. My university paid for a 1.9MBit/s link 220,000 DM for bandwitdh and ~80,000 DM for traffic, that is $17K/month. A commercial ISDN 2Mbps link in germany cost $60K/month. Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 14:43:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA25626 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA25606 Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:43:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199603112243.OAA25606@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: historical note.. To: julian@TFS.COM (Julian Elischer) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:43:04 -0800 (PST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Julian Elischer" at Mar 11, 96 12:02:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Elischer wrote: > > I just found this in the BSD4.3 kernel I'm trying to debug.. > it's from vmparam.h.. > > /* > * Just for fun: current memory prices are 4600$ a megabyte on VAX (4/22/81), > * so we loan each swapped in process memory worth 100$, or just admit > * that we don't consider it worthwhile and swap it out to disk which costs > * $30/mb or about $0.75. > */ > > note that the cost of RAM is less what it cost for disk then.. > 15 years change.. and due to inflation, the ram is even cheaper > in real terms.. > > in the code in question they are trying to save 25K for the process........... HEY! somebody took this out fo the FreeBSD sources! not fair. this is part of our heritage. so it make the source distribution a little larger. so what disk is cheaper than ever. i want it back. please submit a diff. ;^) jmb ps. for those dealing with too much stress, and unable to tell this is my attempt at humor. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 15:42:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA00355 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00345 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:42:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA15575; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:41:52 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA28067; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:41:51 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id AAA01139; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:33:59 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603112333.AAA01139@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Undeliverable Message (fwd) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:33:58 +0100 (MET) Cc: postmaster@banyan.siemens.co.at (Posthamster) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That's about the most funniest bounce i've ever seen: ----- Forwarded message from MAILER-DAEMON@banyan.siemens.co.at ----- >From MAILER-DAEMON@proxy.siemens.at Tue Mar 12 00:04:39 1996 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 22:31:07 GUD Message-Id: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: From: Subject: Undeliverable Message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 To: Cc: Subject: Re: changes to /etc/ttys Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ error codes. ^^^^^^^^^^^^[^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ watch out the spaces here :)] VNM3043: Karl-Heinz Lemp@IVP5@PSE OE VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL (Several dozens of lines deleted.) Well, i've pressed F1 for help, but my Emacs asked me which manual page i'd like to see. :-) Siemens is always good for a nice joke, it seems. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 16:43:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA04378 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from chrome.jdl.com (chrome.onramp.net [199.1.166.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA04373 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chrome.jdl.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA15980; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:45:45 -0600 Message-Id: <199603120045.SAA15980@chrome.jdl.com> X-Authentication-Warning: chrome.jdl.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: julian@TFS.COM (Julian Elischer), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: historical note.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:43:04 PST." <199603112243.OAA25606@freefall.freebsd.org> Clarity-Index: null Threat-Level: none Software-Engineering-Dead-Seriousness: There's no excuse for unreadable code. Net-thought: If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your Kill file. Compiler-Motto: Wintermute is dead. Long live Wintermute. Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:45:45 -0600 From: Jon Loeliger Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So, like "Jonathan M. Bresler" was saying to me just the other day: > Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > I just found this in the BSD4.3 kernel I'm trying to debug.. > > it's from vmparam.h.. > > HEY! somebody took this out fo the FreeBSD sources! not fair. > this is part of our heritage. so it make the source distribution > a little larger. so what disk is cheaper than ever. > > i want it back. please submit a diff. ;^) > > jmb > > ps. for those dealing with too much stress, and unable to tell > this is my attempt at humor. I was curious too. So I fired off a piece of mail to our eternally good buddy Keith. With all due respect, I forward his private mail to me. He says: To: jdl@jdl.com From: Keith Bostic Subject: Re: Historical note... Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:58:45 EST ---------------------------------------------------------------- > [ You don't just happen to know who wrote this, do you? :-) > But, to be a '81 era comment, it's gotta be more like 4.1, > (or 2.9?) or earlier, right? -- jdl ] Bill Joy checked in the SCCS delta, presumably he wrote the text. And, yes, this comment disappeared before the 4.2 release, so it's not a 4.3BSD kernel. --keith Oh wow! jdl From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 16:57:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA05637 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mramirez.sy.yale.edu (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA05629 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 16:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by mramirez.sy.yale.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA10417; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:57:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:57:18 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Ramirez Reply-To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Julian Elischer , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: historical note.. In-Reply-To: <199603112243.OAA25606@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > /* > > * Just for fun: current memory prices are 4600$ a megabyte on VAX (4/22/81), > > * so we loan each swapped in process memory worth 100$, or just admit > > * that we don't consider it worthwhile and swap it out to disk which costs > > * $30/mb or about $0.75. > > */ > > HEY! somebody took this out fo the FreeBSD sources! not fair. > this is part of our heritage. so it make the source distribution > a little larger. so what disk is cheaper than ever. > > i want it back. please submit a diff. ;^) Somewhere on some tarball on tape I have AppleDraw II, a program I wrote in the 5th grade on an Apple IIe, and about 400K worth of drawings that I and my classmates skipped English class to draw. Along with some portraits of various teachers :) there are a bunch of drawings that bring back memories. Whodini, 2010: odyssey two, Herb (remember the old Burger King "Find Herb" promo?). It was the largest program I had ever written, and the oldest program of mine that I still have (well, there's a tape of Trash-80 stuff somewhere, but I'm not going to bother). But it's fun to look back at those things, even if they're stuck back in an attic somewhere. See, now I'm going to have to cobble something together so I can look at these pictures! Marc. -- Marc Ramirez - help him find the funk. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 18:24:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA15466 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15461 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA03570; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:24:26 -0800 (PST) To: Wolfram Schneider cc: davidg@Root.COM, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:12:23 +0100." <199603111812.TAA12496@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:24:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3568.826597466@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Cheap. My university paid for a 1.9MBit/s link 220,000 DM for bandwitdh and > ~80,000 DM for traffic, that is $17K/month. That's what you get with a monopoly.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 21:16:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA28414 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from tsunami.jurai.net (root@tsunami.jurai.net [205.218.122.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA28405 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winter@localhost) by tsunami.jurai.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA10507; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:17:33 -0600 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:17:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@tsunami To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: historical note.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Marc Ramirez wrote: > Somewhere on some tarball on tape I have AppleDraw II, a program I wrote > in the 5th grade on an Apple IIe, and about 400K worth of drawings that I Wow! You too? Mine was called the exact same thing! It had cool brushes. :) > But it's fun to look back at those things, even if they're stuck back in > an attic somewhere. I'm working on image copying all my apple2 stuff to the unix box so I can run it under emulatoin. Would be pretty slick. > See, now I'm going to have to cobble something together so I can look at > these pictures! Heh. Care to compare source code? | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 22:52:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA08234 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slcmodem1-p3-16.intele.net [204.118.149.147]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA08229 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA28447; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:55:50 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:55:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199603120655.XAA28447@obie.softweyr.com> From: wes@intele.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC In-Reply-To: <3568.826597466@time.cdrom.com> References: <199603111812.TAA12496@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> <3568.826597466@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Cheap. My university paid for a 1.9MBit/s link 220,000 DM for bandwitdh > > and ~80,000 DM for traffic, that is $17K/month. > > That's what you get with a monopoly.. :-) You mean like USWest has here? ;^( -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... wes@intele.net | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 22:59:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA08542 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA08529 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA01756; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:58:56 -0800 (PST) To: wes@intele.net cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:55:50 MST." <199603120655.XAA28447@obie.softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:58:56 -0800 Message-ID: <1754.826613936@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Cheap. My university paid for a 1.9MBit/s link 220,000 DM for bandwitdh > > > and ~80,000 DM for traffic, that is $17K/month. > > > > That's what you get with a monopoly.. :-) > > You mean like USWest has here? ;^( Not even close. You don't know the Bundespest, and comparing USWest's monopoly to the Deutsche Bundespost's is like comparing Pee-Wee Herman to Jeffrey Dahmer.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 23:46:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA12155 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12148 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:46:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.5/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id XAA07755; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:38:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:38:25 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: wes@intele.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC In-Reply-To: <1754.826613936@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > monopoly to the Deutsche Bundespost's is like comparing Pee-Wee Herman > to Jeffrey Dahmer.. :-) > Jordan Uhh, you sure that's a comparison? hahah, no, peewee rules! == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 11 23:56:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA12626 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12618 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA01904; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:55:56 -0800 (PST) To: invalid opcode cc: wes@intele.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:38:25 PST." Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 23:55:56 -0800 Message-ID: <1902.826617356@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > monopoly to the Deutsche Bundespost's is like comparing Pee-Wee Herman > > to Jeffrey Dahmer.. :-) > > Jordan > > Uhh, you sure that's a comparison? hahah, no, peewee rules! I meant in terms of their criminal records.. Peewee got done for choking his chicken in a theatre, Dahmer got done for proving that people taste like chicken. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 00:50:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA15783 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:50:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA15771 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 00:50:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA00414 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:50:36 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA02591 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:50:36 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA03991 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:25:54 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603120825.JAA03991@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: historical note.. To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:25:53 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at Mar 11, 96 11:17:33 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > But it's fun to look back at those things, even if they're stuck back in > > an attic somewhere. > > I'm working on image copying all my apple2 stuff to the unix box so > I can run it under emulatoin. Would be pretty slick. You mean reading CP/M floppies? Can do this already, `cpmtools' is in the ports. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 07:43:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA23347 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:43:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bbnplanet.com (poblano.near.net [198.114.157.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA23338 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from jcurran.bbnplanet.com by poblano.bbnplanet.com id aa14677; 12 Mar 96 10:42 EST X-Sender: jcurran@198.114.157.116 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Phone: (617) 873-4398 USMail: 150 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge, MA, 02140 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:42:59 -0500 To: mark@grondar.za From: John Curran Subject: Re: Problems in SF? Cc: chat@freebsd.org, davidg@root.com Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark, A traceroute would be most appreciated. Please email to myself or "ops@bbnplanet.com" (as I can't be certain that everyone is FreeBSD followers...) /John --- >>To: Mark Murray >>Cc: chat@freebsd.org >>Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC >>In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:18:41 +0200." >> <199603091618.SAA17709@grumble.grondar.za> >>From: David Greenman >>Reply-To: davidg@root.com >>Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:17:21 -0800 >>Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org >>X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >>Precedence: bulk >> >>>Is it just me or are all of you seeing a bloody slow connection today >>>(Saturday afternoon, 9th March, GMT-0200)? >>> >>>A traceroute shows that most packets are getting lost in bbnplanet(?). >>> >>>Any clues/ides? >> >> There is a problem in the Stanford<->Berkeley connectivity that has been >>around for about 2 months and fluctuates in severity. We reported the problem >>to BBN Planet over a month ago but no action on it was taken on it. Next week >>I'll be switching WC CDROM to a new service provider. >> >>- -DG >> >>David Greenman >>Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 08:11:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA25406 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:11:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA25400 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA08162; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:09:30 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199603121609.SAA08162@grumble.grondar.za> To: John Curran cc: chat@freebsd.org, davidg@root.com, ops@bbnplanet.com Subject: Re: Problems in SF? Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:09:30 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Curran wrote: > Mark, > > A traceroute would be most appreciated. Please email to myself > or "ops@bbnplanet.com" (as I can't be certain that everyone is > FreeBSD followers...) Sure. I must point out, though, that this problem comes and goes, and is not happening right now. At the time of my complaint, I was suffering an 80% packet loss (measured by 2-minute pings). At the moment its more like 20%. Traceroutes showed all the *'s in the bbnplanet area. I can't remember which ones exactly. Now they come and go - the ZA international link is a bit full. M Script started on Tue Mar 12 18:02:14 1996 grumble ~ $ traceroute freefall.freebsd.org traceroute to freefall.freebsd.org (192.216.222.4), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 grunt (196.7.18.129) 1.708 ms 1.503 ms 1.538 ms 2 196.31.0.79 (196.31.0.79) 250.315 ms 253.989 ms 238.662 ms 3 rtr2.Newlands.IAFRICA.NET (196.31.0.67) 259.168 ms 264.950 ms 259.388 ms 4 uunet (137.39.154.133) 598.673 ms 708.149 ms 879.295 ms 5 * Fddi0/0.Vienna1.VA.Alter.Net (137.39.11.1) 884.562 ms * 6 192.41.177.1 (192.41.177.1) 1179.932 ms 716.606 ms * 7 4.0.1.17 (4.0.1.17) 1104.001 ms * 1203.267 ms 8 4.0.1.5 (4.0.1.5) 938.271 ms 864.577 ms 1268.828 ms 9 4.0.1.1 (4.0.1.1) 918.398 ms 783.768 ms 749.086 ms 10 su-mci.bbnplanet.net (192.31.48.71) 848.258 ms 933.340 ms 799.247 ms 11 su-tk.bbnplanet.net (192.31.48.65) 578.698 ms 652.728 ms 889.516 ms 12 ucb-2.bbnplanet.net (131.119.2.2) 808.725 ms 843.497 ms 719.173 ms 13 ucb-o2.bbnplanet.net (131.119.253.3) 739.214 ms 753.038 ms 839.190 ms 14 cdrom.bbnplanet.net (131.119.70.134) 948.785 ms 933.117 ms 799.209 ms 15 freefall.FreeBSD.ORG (192.216.222.4) 769.031 ms * 781.430 ms grumble ~ $ exit exit Script done on Tue Mar 12 18:03:30 1996 > > /John > > --- > > >>To: Mark Murray > >>Cc: chat@freebsd.org > >>Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC > >>In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 09 Mar 1996 18:18:41 +0200." > >> <199603091618.SAA17709@grumble.grondar.za> > >>From: David Greenman > >>Reply-To: davidg@root.com > >>Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 17:17:21 -0800 > >>Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org > >>X-Loop: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > >>Precedence: bulk > >> > >>>Is it just me or are all of you seeing a bloody slow connection today > >>>(Saturday afternoon, 9th March, GMT-0200)? > >>> > >>>A traceroute shows that most packets are getting lost in bbnplanet(?). > >>> > >>>Any clues/ides? > >> > >> There is a problem in the Stanford<->Berkeley connectivity that has been > >>around for about 2 months and fluctuates in severity. We reported the probl em > >>to BBN Planet over a month ago but no action on it was taken on it. Next we ek > >>I'll be switching WC CDROM to a new service provider. > >> > >>- -DG > >> > >>David Greenman > >>Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > > -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 08:16:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA25824 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:16:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA25817 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA21042; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:15:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199603121615.IAA21042@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: John Curran cc: mark@grondar.za, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problems in SF? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:42:59 EST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:15:32 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Mark, > > A traceroute would be most appreciated. Please email to myself > or "ops@bbnplanet.com" (as I can't be certain that everyone is > FreeBSD followers...) > >/John Hi John. I suppose since I'm one of the ones complaining the loudest and since I'm one of the people responsible for these problems in the FreeBSD Project and at WC CDROM, I feel obligated to respond. Remember a few weeks back when you pointed out to me in email that BBN Planet had T3's going in all directions from Stanford and I was saying that it didn't look that way to me? - that everything went through the microwave link to MCI? Well, part of the problem people are complaining about now is that the traffic is taking a much more indirect path (no longer through MCI), going across the US and back: [freefall:davidg] traceroute implode.root.com traceroute to implode.root.com (198.145.90.17), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 gatekeeper.cdrom.com (192.216.222.1) 1.887 ms 1.908 ms 1.885 ms 2 ucb-o2.bbnplanet.net (131.119.70.133) 3.174 ms 3.389 ms 3.130 ms 3 ucb-2.bbnplanet.net (131.119.253.5) 4.077 ms 4.231 ms 6.733 ms 4 * su-tk.bbnplanet.net (131.119.2.1) 7.045 ms * 5 su-b.bbnplanet.net (192.31.48.66) 12.307 ms 11.847 ms 9.976 ms 6 4.0.1.2 (4.0.1.2) 58.903 ms 60.336 ms 62.462 ms 7 4.0.1.6 (4.0.1.6) 75.344 ms 74.071 ms 73.897 ms 8 icm-fix-e-F0.icp.net (192.203.229.245) 82.637 ms 78.055 ms 74.084 ms 9 icm-dc-2b-H3/0-T3.icp.net (192.157.65.121) 76.889 ms 76.954 ms 78.658 ms 10 sl-dc-6-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.20.6) 74.342 ms 204.247 ms 163.218 ms 11 sl-stk-5-H1/0-T3.sprintlink.net (144.228.10.2) 165.794 ms 181.430 ms 175.849 ms 12 sl-stk-11-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.40.11) 166.467 ms 175.594 ms * 13 sl-intworks-1-S1-T1.sprintlink.net (144.228.141.66) 171.641 ms 162.277 ms 168.508 ms 14 implode.Root.COM (198.145.90.17) 206.437 ms 199.045 ms 191.234 ms The round-about path to Sprint is a new problem that started last week. I'm assuming that this is caused by BBN Planet not peering with Sprint in the Bay Area (at the PacBell NAP or MAE-west) coupled with some changes in the routing tables to prefer BBN Planet's network. The above is compounded by the older problem that *appears* to be between ucb-o2 and ucb-2 (see above). The lossage in this particular traceback makes it look like the problem is Stanford<->Berkeley - and it might be - but I did a variety of 'ping' tests (yes, I know that pings are a poor way to look for packet lossage, but it's the only tool I have for this) about 5 weeks ago and it appeared that I could reliably ping ucb-o2, but get 10-15% packet loss when pinging ucb-2 (this is from WC CDROM). Gary Palmer of Walnut Creek CDROM filed a trouble ticket about this problem and except for the ticket-filing confirmation, we never heard anything more. When we arranged for CRL Network Services to provide the 100Mbps colocation of wcarchive.cdrom.com, we also arranged as part of a package deal for CRL to provide T1 services to WC CDROM in Concord. We've been waiting for MFS to finish the installation of the new T1 and will be moving over to that as soon as it is ready (starting tomorrow if everything goes right). -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 12:49:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA14562 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14552 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id OAA25096; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:50:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:50:45 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: Joerg Wunsch cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: historical note.. In-Reply-To: <199603120825.JAA03991@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > I'm working on image copying all my apple2 stuff to the unix box so > > I can run it under emulatoin. Would be pretty slick. > You mean reading CP/M floppies? Can do this already, `cpmtools' is in > the ports. Ah! But I don't think the Apple ][ disks work the same way. :) | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 12 20:01:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA26096 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 20:01:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (pp@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26091 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 20:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au id <12706-0@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:00:47 +1000 Received: from orion.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id NAA14088; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:08:55 +1000 Received: by orion.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-0.3) id NAA17827; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:09:27 +1000 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:09:27 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Message-Id: <199603130309.NAA17827@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> To: Marc Ramirez cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: historical note.. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marc Ramirez wrote: >... It was the largest program I had ever written, >and the oldest program of mine that I still have (well, there's a tape of >Trash-80 stuff somewhere, but I'm not going to bother). Ah, the good old days! My project to resurrect my TRS-80 programs has hit a snag. I have xtrs, the software TRS-80 emulator (which works just fine), but I've been delayed because my soundblaster won't record under FreeBSD 2.0.5. Yes, I'm going to decode my old tapes by bit-groping wav files! I figure that once I've done that, I should be able to write compatible tapes too, just for laughs. If I ever finish this, I'll let y'all know... Stephen (lost in a previous decade). From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 00:21:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA12661 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:21:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA12602 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA08793 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:20:49 +0100 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA14761 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:20:48 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.4/8.6.9) id JAA11042 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:42 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199603130804.JAA11042@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: historical note.. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:04:41 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199603130309.NAA17827@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> from "Stephen McKay" at Mar 13, 96 01:09:27 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Stephen McKay wrote: > My project to resurrect my TRS-80 programs has hit a snag. I have xtrs, > the software TRS-80 emulator (which works just fine), but I've been delayed > because my soundblaster won't record under FreeBSD 2.0.5. Yes, I'm going > to decode my old tapes by bit-groping wav files! Hehe, i've got a real CP/M machine around for reading ol' tapes, and also for burning EMPROMs (down to the ugly 2708, with its three supply voltages and clocked programming voltage, ick). :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 00:56:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA15252 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (pp@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA15246 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au id <08181-0@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:55:15 +1000 Received: from orion.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id RAA18346; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:53:56 +1000 Received: by orion.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-0.3) id RAA20124; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:54:13 +1000 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:54:13 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Message-Id: <199603130754.RAA20124@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> To: Jon Loeliger cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: historical note.. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jon Loeliger wrote: >So, like "Jonathan M. Bresler" was saying to me just the other day: >> Julian Elischer wrote: >> > >> > I just found this in the BSD4.3 kernel I'm trying to debug.. >> > it's from vmparam.h.. >> >> HEY! somebody took this out fo the FreeBSD sources! not fair. >> >> i want it back. please submit a diff. ;^) > >I was curious too. So I fired off a piece of mail to >our eternally good buddy Keith. With all due respect, >I forward his private mail to me. He says: > > To: jdl@jdl.com > From: Keith Bostic > Subject: Re: Historical note... > Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:58:45 EST > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > [ You don't just happen to know who wrote this, do you? :-) > > But, to be a '81 era comment, it's gotta be more like 4.1, > > (or 2.9?) or earlier, right? -- jdl ] > > Bill Joy checked in the SCCS delta, presumably he wrote the text. > And, yes, this comment disappeared before the 4.2 release, so it's > not a 4.3BSD kernel. > > --keith > >Oh wow! For contrast, here is the appropriate bit from 386BSD 0.1 in /sys/sys.386bsd/i386/include/vmparam.h (yes, I keep some weird old cruft): /* * Just for fun: current memory prices are 4600$ a megabyte on VAX (4/22/81), * so we loan each swapped in process memory worth 100$, or just admit * that we don't consider it worthwhile and swap it out to disk which costs * $30/mb or about $0.75. * { wfj 6/16/89: Retail AT memory expansion $800/megabyte, loan of $17 * on disk costing $7/mb or $0.18 (in memory still 100:1 in cost!) } */ #define SAFERSS 8 /* nominal ``small'' resident set size protected against replacement */ Bill got this from net/2, didn't he? Net/2 was post-4.3, true? What I'm building to is the near-to-impossible suggestion that Keith might be wrong. Still, that's not my main point. I find this sort of buried historical trivia fascinating, and would love to have it re-inserted, together with a 1996 data point. That is, of course, if we can find an appropriate bit of code to attach it to, since SAFERSS no longer exists. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 04:41:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA27320 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 04:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA27043 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 04:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from basta.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@basta.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.16]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA10775; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:25:40 +0100 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA00432; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:21:54 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:21:54 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199603131221.NAA00432@campa.panke.de> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:58:56 -0800 Subject: Re: Poor connection to WC Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: <1754.826613936@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Not even close. You don't know the Bundespest, and comparing USWest's >monopoly to the Deutsche Bundespost's is like comparing Pee-Wee Herman >to Jeffrey Dahmer.. :-) The german telecom is really a monster. Some figures: basic telephon market (without cable tv, shops etc.) sales: 20 billion US$ profit: 8 billion US$ (for 4 billion US$ you can buy Sun Microsystems) credits (whole company): 80 billion US$ credit costs: 6 billion US$ Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 10:28:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA15005 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15000 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id NAA01962; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:26:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:26:47 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Peter Wemm cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Build numbers! :-) In-Reply-To: <199603041444.WAA00298@jhome.DIALix.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, Peter Wemm wrote: > > FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #300: Mon Mar 4 22:00:29 WST 1996 peter@jhome.DIALix.COM:/home/src/sys/compile/JHOME Hmmmm... how do you do that? My kernels always say "#0". -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 10:37:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA15623 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15605 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:36:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id NAA01975; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:34:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:34:36 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Joerg Wunsch cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: historical note.. In-Reply-To: <199603120825.JAA03991@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > > You mean reading CP/M floppies? Can do this already, `cpmtools' is in > the ports. Only if you did your work on an Apple II with a Z80 CP/M card. There are UNIX/X Apple II emulators out there that will read DOS 3.2/3.3 and ProDOS floppy images. Damn, now I'll have to go find an Infocom interpreter for UNIX and relive those old text adventures. :) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 10:43:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA15811 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15806 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id NAA01990; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:41:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:41:01 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Mark Murray cc: John Curran , chat@FreeBSD.org, davidg@Root.COM, ops@bbnplanet.com Subject: Re: Problems in SF? In-Reply-To: <199603121609.SAA08162@grumble.grondar.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Mark Murray wrote: > > Traceroutes showed all the *'s in the bbnplanet area. I can't remember > which ones exactly. Now they come and go - the ZA international link > is a bit full. Hmmmm, I take it this means they've just been moved over to CRL now? # traceroute ftp.cdrom.com traceroute to wcarchive.cdrom.com (165.113.58.253), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 splort (198.133.36.33) 2.349 ms 2.383 ms 2.219 ms 2 cerebus.ican.net (204.92.87.9) 77.066 ms 99.586 ms 61.234 ms 3 sl-pen-7-S2/0-T1.sprintlink.net (144.228.67.29) 110.018 ms 74.093 ms 64.818 ms 4 sl-pen-2-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.60.2) 88.764 ms 109.550 ms 111.718 ms 5 sl-chi-3-H2/0-T3.sprintlink.net (144.228.10.38) 134.247 ms 148.031 ms 128.263 ms 6 sl-chi-6-F0/0.sprintlink.net (144.228.50.6) 120.391 ms 77.946 ms 113.110 ms 7 144.228.10.54 (144.228.10.54) 158.247 ms * 297.511 ms 8 sprint.west.cix.net (149.20.4.1) 181.734 ms 151.662 ms 197.295 ms 9 T3-CRL-SFO-01-H3/0.US.CRL.NET (149.20.64.19) 260.531 ms 239.079 ms 217.784 ms 10 wcarchive.cdrom.com (165.113.58.253) 249.466 ms 329.399 ms 276.673 ms -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 11:39:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA18520 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:39:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from jhome.DIALix.COM (root@jhome.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.69]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA18514 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.DIALix.oz.au (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by jhome.DIALix.COM (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA02443; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:38:51 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199603131938.DAA02443@jhome.DIALix.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: jhome.DIALix.COM: Host peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Brian Tao cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Build numbers! :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:26:47 EST." Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:38:50 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, Peter Wemm wrote: >> >> FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #300: Mon Mar 4 22:00:29 WST 1996 peter@jhome.DIALi >x.COM:/home/src/sys/compile/JHOME > > Hmmmm... how do you do that? My kernels always say "#0". >-- >Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) >Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. >"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" Basically, I use use config -n on the very rare occasion that I actually run config. Most of the time it's building a new test kernel, which I do anaverage of about two a day. I *always* use 'make depend'. On the rare occasion that I actually change any config settings, I look at the impact it has. If it's safe, I just do a 'make depend; make'. Otherwise, I do a 'make clean' first. Being able to tell when it's safe to skip the 'make clean' is the kicker. :-) 'make clean' does not reset the version number. Cheers, -Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 11:42:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA18685 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from jhome.DIALix.COM (root@jhome.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.69]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA18677 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.DIALix.oz.au (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by jhome.DIALix.COM (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA02463; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:41:40 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199603131941.DAA02463@jhome.DIALix.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: jhome.DIALix.COM: Host peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Brian Tao cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Build numbers! :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:26:47 EST." Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:41:39 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, Peter Wemm wrote: >> >> FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #300: Mon Mar 4 22:00:29 WST 1996 peter@jhome.DIALi >x.COM:/home/src/sys/compile/JHOME > > Hmmmm... how do you do that? My kernels always say "#0". >-- >Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) >Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. >"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" Oh yeah, now it's up to: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #322: Wed Mar 13 16:47:59 WST 1996 peter@jhome.DIALix.COM:/home/src/sys/compile/JHOME So, 22 builds in 9 days.. :-) Cheers, -Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 14:04:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA29298 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from cabal.io.org (cabal.io.org [198.133.36.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA29282 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.4/8.7.4) id RAA02444; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:03:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:03:05 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: Peter Wemm cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Build numbers! :-) In-Reply-To: <199603131938.DAA02443@jhome.DIALix.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Peter Wemm wrote: > > Basically, I use use config -n on the very rare occasion that I actually run > config. Most of the time it's building a new test kernel, which I do > anaverage of about two a day. I *always* use 'make depend'. Really? All you need is a "make depend && make" when you have new kernel source? I figured it would be safer to always do a "config BLAH" to remove traces of old files. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org) Systems Administrator, Internex Online Inc. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 14:19:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA00205 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:19:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mramirez.sy.yale.edu (mramirez.sy.yale.edu [130.132.57.207]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA00165 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mrami@localhost) by mramirez.sy.yale.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA22468; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:19:01 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:19:00 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Ramirez Reply-To: mrami@minerva.cis.yale.edu To: Joerg Wunsch cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: historical note.. In-Reply-To: <199603120825.JAA03991@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > > > But it's fun to look back at those things, even if they're stuck back in > > > an attic somewhere. > > > > I'm working on image copying all my apple2 stuff to the unix box so > > I can run it under emulatoin. Would be pretty slick. > > You mean reading CP/M floppies? Can do this already, `cpmtools' is in > the ports. Nope. DOS 3.3 (and I don't mean the one released for the PS/2) and ProDOS. :) Marc. -- Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be paid back. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 13 22:39:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA04516 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com ([204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA04495 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:38:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id WAA01180 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:38:50 -0800 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA08718; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:40:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:40:10 -0700 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199603140640.XAA08718@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: invalid opcode Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: To pick a (perl) fight! In-Reply-To: References: <199603140434.VAA08632@rocky.sri.MT.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I can also do a quick 'thumb' through the book looking for something a > > couple orders of magnitude faster than you can with online books. After > > That's a matter of if I can type faster than you can find the page. The > way you find the page would be to either flip through the book until you > see the familiar pages around that section, or you use the index. Right. > While > that may be all well and good, I can still lexically find it faster than > you. If you know *everything* you are looking for. If you are working off memory or looking for something similar, you will end up looking at *all* of the material that has similar contenct lexically to what I want, which in reference manuals tend to be a *LOT* of material. > For instance, I can leap to the index, click on the correct letter, > find the section I need and click on it, boom I'm there. The text is the > same, the illustrations are the same. I challenge you to a race. I *know* I can find information faster than anyone using on-line docs. Again, I've been reading for 23 years, and I read alot. This means that I have a very effecient system of finding information that is orders of magnitude faster than anything I can do on-line. You can't spead read as well with on-line books because it takes more effort to 'turn the pages' than with phycical medium. > > I've read a book, I remember what I'm looking for, but I don't remember > > where it's at. With on-line books, I spend more time looking for things > > that are related slowly than I do finding things that are related. > > That's a matter of subjectiveness and reading style. Other's may do the > exact opposite. The folks who I've talked to agree with me. Again, it's still subjective, but I've yet to find someone who prefers on-line docs to printed docs given a choice between the two. > > I have yet to find a hyper-text book that as useful to me as the > > completely random access method I use with books. And, I've found that > > Well, first off, if we are using random access methods to read the > "book", than it would probably be more accurate to call them reference > manuals (just a small semi-moot point). The first time through a book most folks skim all of the material, so you end up hitting all of the highlights. In some ways, hyper-text manuals are often more difficult to 'read' because it's hard to come up with a good balance of links. Too often you have to 'link' around the doc to find necessary information, rather than having it laid out in a more logical fashion. It's nice to be able to see refernce on how the VM system affects memory usage, but sometimes it's distracting when you don't care about memory usage, but you are trying to find out something important about the VM system. The content behind hyper-text links are always obvious, so you can never tell if it's directly relevant to the material you are reading or indirectly related, so I often spend alot of time looking for the right information in the wrong places. Again, I find the most useful function reference manuals is when I know just enough to be dangerous, but not enough to have the entire answer. When I know everything, I can look directly in the index, and and on-line manual is harder to get to because I have to load the new CD in the driver from the previous one (cause it's on a different subject, etc..). It's alot easier to grab a book than it is to load up a new CD, start up the browser software, etc... My browser software for books is always running, so it's less effort. > Now the fact is, with a robust > and efficient, yet simple search engine, I can find the information I > need, fast. I don't believe there is such a thing. Either you limit your search which requires alot of thinking on your part up front as to the 'wording' of your query, or you make your search so generic that you end up looking through alot of irrelevant information trying to find valid information. You can't have it both ways. > > Do you agree that a minority of the folks in the world have ISP access? > > No, I did not mean the world, I meant people who had internet access. You argued that anyone doing Perl development probably has internet access. I'm refuting that arguement. If people use an ISP, they inherently have Internet access, hence the term 'Internet Service Provider'. > Of the people who do have internet access, a significant majority do > have web access. There is no reason we cannot provide the html version > of the manuals on the local machine anyways. This would effectively > eliminate any argue of web access for manuals. But another useful > feature of online manuals would be the real-time updating and/or > corrections of them. For people to read manuals, they must learn 'yet another' piece of software? This isn't productive. I *still* can't figure GNU-info out, so I've basically given up trying to read the docs from them simply because the user interface sucks. Again, it boils down to having information available to the end-user that they are most comfortable in. Currently that is written docs, not HTML/SGML/Tex/Hyper-Card/Win-Helo on-line docs. > > All of the stuff I use significantly gets printed out. Printing out > > Hyper-linked pages is a *pain*, since it requires a *bunch* more work > > than it needs to be. > > Yes, I tend to agree with you there. But that is a limit of the client. > One could easliy implement an html-spider -> print client. But to do that means that the book > > > The Java tutorial is a good example of a very nicely setup Hyper-linked > > document, but once you've gone through it one the links are more of a > > hinderance than a help. > > How are they more of a hinderance? Because information is 'hidden' behind the links, and while the inter-dependencies are great and wonderful for linked docs, they are confusing and difficult to follow for general reference material. The link which talks about both the memory and VM system doesn't belong in either the VM section or the memory section but is seperate. Should it get a new chapter? There are lots of 'misc' links that get left out which contain relevant information, but it's not laid out in a format that I find useful. > > Again, this is my opinion, but in talking to others I'm finding a lot > > more people who agree with me than disagree. The paper-less society > > won't happen until you can find a way for me to have the same sort of > > speedy random-access ability that I have with a book. (I doubt you'll > > find it, but I've learned to never say never.) > > We already have faster random access than human's can provide. From > above, a robust search engine will bring you to your information faster > than humanly possible. Having more information than I could ever consume hasn't been a problem since time began. We aren't any better off now than we were 2000 years ago, and in many cases we're in worse shape because we are expected to consume and understand *MORE* information than humanly possible already. I've got plenty of information that I already need to know but don't have time to learn. Provide me information that is easy to understand that takes *less* of my time to read, not more. Time is something I'm lacking, not new (slower) ways of getting it. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 00:32:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA07950 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07945 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA02142 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:32:53 -0800 Received: (from winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id CAA14066; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 02:32:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 02:32:53 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: Terry Lambert cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: To pick a (perl) fight! In-Reply-To: <199603140032.RAA09749@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > This may shock you, but I don't own a printer (I probably personally > own more computers than 95% of the people on the list, if they don't > count their video equipment, ovens, or bread machines. 8-)). Heh. Working or not? I bet mine weigh more. *evil grin* | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 03:05:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA15706 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA15688 Thu, 14 Mar 1996 03:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA07961; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:50:01 -0800 (PST) To: Stephen McKay cc: Marc Ramirez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: historical note.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:09:27 +1000." <199603130309.NAA17827@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:50:01 -0800 Message-ID: <7959.826786201@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > because my soundblaster won't record under FreeBSD 2.0.5. Yes, I'm going > to decode my old tapes by bit-groping wav files! I figure that once I've That's.. That's... That's TOTALLY SICK! I like it! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 05:46:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA05835 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 05:46:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA05830 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 05:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.id.net (root@server.id.net [199.125.1.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id FAA01337 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 05:46:16 -0800 Received: (from rls@localhost) by server.id.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA29166; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:45:03 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Shady Message-Id: <199603141345.IAA29166@server.id.net> Subject: Re: To pick a (perl) fight! To: winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:45:03 -0500 (EST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Matthew N. Dodd" at Mar 14, 96 02:32:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This may shock you, but I don't own a printer (I probably personally > > own more computers than 95% of the people on the list, if they don't > > count their video equipment, ovens, or bread machines. 8-)). > > Heh. Working or not? I bet mine weigh more. *evil grin* I just got rid of my Oddessy ][, and my friend had an Oddessy I. They weren't anywhere NEAR the scale of technology in a VCR, or a watch for that matter, but it was my first computer, and I did have the optional Assembler cartridge for it so you could program it through it's membrane keyboard. I still have: Several Atari 2600's, Several TI-99/4A's, about 5 386-40Mhz boxes, 6 or so 486DX4-(100/120) boxes, and 2 pentiums... I'm proud to say that I have *NO* 286's laying around anymore, but I do have about 15 XT motherboards and about 200 8086 CPU's... ;) Oh yeah, can't forget about the 4 Sun 3/50's, a Mac II-SE, and a Mac Performa something or another.. -- Rob === _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ Innovative Data Services Serving South-Eastern Michigan Internet Service Provider / Hardware Sales / Consulting Services Voice: (810)855-0404 / Fax: (810)855-3268 / Web: http://www.id.net From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 08:17:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA15567 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA15560 for chat; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:17:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199603141617.IAA15560@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: To pick a (perl) fight! (fwd) To: chat Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:17:25 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco wrote: > > Well just how many would that be? Working off my last resource allocation > chart, I've got... hm. 7 routers.. 6 servers.. 3 term servers.. 12 general > purpose.. probably others.. that's something like 28. > > Ok, I admit, I counted some of my Suns that aren't in service and two PC > motherboards that are "in assembly" :-) Most of the machines run FreeBSD. every once in a while it hits me afresh. FreeBSD functions well as: routers, servers, term servers, and general purpose unix box. Ron Minnich at Sarnoff doing his high-performance computing Russel Carter at Geli doing his number-crunching hammer Rod Grimes shipping FreeBSD to everyone and his brother People inside Bell Labs using FreeBSD To everyone a very hearty WELL DONE! this is one bitching OS -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 09:54:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA21817 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:54:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA21812 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id JAA05235 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:54:52 -0800 Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.5/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id VAA01494; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:55:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:55:19 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: To pick a (perl) fight! In-Reply-To: <199603140434.VAA08632@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > I can turn to a page on my computer a *LOT* faster than you can switch > to it on your screen. Uhh? Read those lines closer :P > I can also do a quick 'thumb' through the book looking for something a > couple orders of magnitude faster than you can with online books. After That's a matter of if I can type faster than you can find the page. The way you find the page would be to either flip through the book until you see the familiar pages around that section, or you use the index. While that may be all well and good, I can still lexically find it faster than you. For instance, I can leap to the index, click on the correct letter, find the section I need and click on it, boom I'm there. The text is the same, the illustrations are the same. > I've read a book, I remember what I'm looking for, but I don't remember > where it's at. With on-line books, I spend more time looking for things > that are related slowly than I do finding things that are related. That's a matter of subjectiveness and reading style. Other's may do the exact opposite. > I have yet to find a hyper-text book that as useful to me as the > completely random access method I use with books. And, I've found that Well, first off, if we are using random access methods to read the "book", than it would probably be more accurate to call them reference manuals (just a small semi-moot point). Now the fact is, with a robust and efficient, yet simple search engine, I can find the information I need, fast. > Do you agree that a minority of the folks in the world have ISP access? No, I did not mean the world, I meant people who had internet access. Of the people who do have internet access, a significant majority do have web access. There is no reason we cannot provide the html version of the manuals on the local machine anyways. This would effectively eliminate any argue of web access for manuals. But another useful feature of online manuals would be the real-time updating and/or corrections of them. > Would you also agree that a significant minority of folks who program > don't have reliable access to the WEB? Are you telling those folks that > they can't program in Perl since they don't have decent access to the > on-line books? Like I said before, they will be provided with local copies of the html documents. Can I say, you can't install FreeBSD because you might not have access to the online Handbook? No, I cannot, because the handbook is provided locally, as would these. > All of the stuff I use significantly gets printed out. Printing out > Hyper-linked pages is a *pain*, since it requires a *bunch* more work > than it needs to be. Yes, I tend to agree with you there. But that is a limit of the client. One could easliy implement an html-spider -> print client. > The Java tutorial is a good example of a very nicely setup Hyper-linked > document, but once you've gone through it one the links are more of a > hinderance than a help. How are they more of a hinderance? > Again, this is my opinion, but in talking to others I'm finding a lot > more people who agree with me than disagree. The paper-less society > won't happen until you can find a way for me to have the same sort of > speedy random-access ability that I have with a book. (I doubt you'll > find it, but I've learned to never say never.) We already have faster random access than human's can provide. From above, a robust search engine will bring you to your information faster than humanly possible. > Nate == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 15:57:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA11828 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 15:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from onyx.nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11820 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 15:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from onyx.nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by onyx.nervosa.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01180 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 15:42:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 15:42:48 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I thought this was amusing, the 'warm and fuzzy' that is. This is from the BSDI: Becoming an ISP FAQ page. ---------- Question: I see BSDI sells source code. Do I need source code? Answer: Most customers do not require source code. Those who desire it cite several reasons: they are not dependent on anyone when they run into an emergency, they can modify the code to meet their specific advanced requirements, and they feel `warm and fuzzy' when they have the source code. -- == Chris Layne ======================================== Nervosa Computing == == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 22:23:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA05292 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA05285 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA20756; Thu, 14 Mar 96 22:23:10 PST From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu (David E. O'Brien) Message-Id: <9603150623.AA20756@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu> Subject: (fwd) A New Era for Linux has Arrived! (fwd) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:23:08 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Good grief!!! More amunition for them. I wonder who in the world paid the $$$ for them. -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) ----- Forwarded message ----- From: info@lasermoon.co.uk Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce Subject: A New Era for Linux has Arrived! Followup-To: comp.os.linux.misc Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 20:03:11 GMT Approved: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov (Lars Wirzenius) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- POSIX.1 (FIPS 151-2) Certification A Historic Development!! (Availability : Intel and Digital ALPHA Architectures) Linux has achieved certification against a major International Standard recognised and implemented throughout the computer industry. Announced at the Open Group meeting of X/Open and the OSF in San Fransisco on 9th March 1996 and at CeBIT in Hanover, Germany. The interest in this release from the Application vendors is considerable (this is English understatement :) as this release allows almost seamless porting of almost all UNIX applications to Linux. The POSIX.1 FIPS151-2 certification will directly provide Linux developers and users with both a "Feel Good" and a "Feel Safe" factor. Feel Good : Because they have a measure of Quality. It cuts through the hype of simply putting the term "Commercial" or "Professional" in the product title. Because the developer's and the user's know that the product has actually been tested completely eliminating the so-called "Emperors Clothes" situation surrounding the way that Linux is tested. Because it has passed the POSIX.1 FIPS151-2 Certification testing against a mature, recognised and implemented Industry Standard. Feel Safe : Because the Certification provides them with a known and stable functionality base that provides true portability. Because we have more than just the word of a Distribution that the product has been tested. Because the certification work has provided a higher quality system. You may notice that the above are interchangable - for the first time Linux provides simultaneous "Feel Good" and "Feel Safe". Independant Software Vendors (ISV's) are already welcoming this development as it provides them with a level of stability and consistency previously unavailable. Their rapid support and usage of this Certified technology further increases the attractiveness and depth of use of Linux. The Certified release provides a base reference platform against which quality and functionality can be measured. It eliminates the problems surrounding an Application compiling on one Distribution and not on another. We now have the same reference point used in the UNIX Industry. Why Certify? - ------------ Standards implementation is a "Have" or "Have not" issue. Until now, Linux has not had certification against any particular standard and has been variously mis-described as "mostly POSIX", "POSIX'ish" and even "a superset of POSIX". The former terms indicate that Linux has been developed *towards* POSIX, the latter is meaningless as the "superset" cannot exist without international acceptance and recognition (at which point it becomes part of the standard). Certification against a given level of the POSIX standard completely cuts through the confusion surrounding exactly where Linux fits into the POSIX hierarchy. Linux is POSIX.1 Certified! --------------------------- The Certification has been the result of a large and costly development effort over a considerable period of time. Large : Problems, bugs, code instabilities and enhancements have been made to libraries, the kernel, the compiler and other parts of the system to pass Certication Testing. It took a considerable period of time to get Linux to a point at which the Certification work could begin. Costly: The development group behind this certification effort has made a huge - currently well into 6 figures (US Dollars) - investment in standards and Certification Test Software alone. This does not include the actual development costs which are substantial. This release is based round the 1.2.13 kernel and we are talking to Linus Torvalds about certifying the new 2.0 kernel. Providing a list of all the modules affected by this certification is beyond the scope of this announcement and will be found elsewhere in the documentation packs available soon on the Internet. Will this Release Become a Linux Standard? - ------------------------------------------ We have already been asked this question enough times to make it into the FAQ. The answer is no, it will not *become* another Linux Standard. It already *is* the standard used in the UNIX industry. Is this Certified code GPL'ed? - ------------------------------ Simple answer, formatted for clarity : YES ! Other POSIX Certifications - -------------------------- Products that are certified against POSIX.2, POSIX.4 and POSIX.7 are coming soon. There is a preview of POSIX.2 certified products included in the POSIX.1 Certified release. How is it available? - -------------------- On CD-ROM and by ftp. You will find site details listed at the end of this email. anonymous ftp: Those wishing to mirror should reply to this email in the first instance for the no-fuss way to mirror. More Information - ---------------- This huge step forward for Linux has possibly the smallest announcement. There is simply no way that we can provide full information in this forum - it's simply too large. The full details of this work, the significant impact that this Certification is already having in the Linux world, how you can obtain it, what the future holds etc, etc, will be available both by email, ftp and WWW. An FAQ has been prepared to answer (hopefully) the majority of questions surrounding this significant historic leap forward. Email : info@lasermoon.co.uk info@openlinux.com info@justcomp.com ftp : ftp.lasermoon.co.uk ftp.openlinux.com ftp.infomagic.com WWW : www.lasermoon.co.uk www.justcomp.com www.infomagic.com www.openlinux.com There is a huge amount of material being added to these sites at a time of some major Industry events. We apologise in advance if you cannot find all the material you require immediately. Please return to the site in a day or so or send us an email. We anticipate that everything should be in place by the end of March. Distribution - ------------ Linux-FT Rev 1.2 will be shipping the week of March 18, 1996. Linux-FT is distributed by and can be obtained from the following companies in addition to many quality Linux product resellers. Lasermoon The Forge, Fareham Road Wickham, Hants, PO17 5DE England Phone: +44 1329 834944 FAX: +44 1329 834955 E-mail: sales@lasermoon.co.uk Web: www.lasermoon.co.uk ftp: ftp.lasermoon.co.uk Just Computers! 607 Martin Ave. Suite 100A Rohnert Park U.S.A. Phone: 800-800-1648 Int'l: 707-586-5600 FAX: 707-586-5606 E-mail: sales@justcomp.com Web: www.justcomp.com InfoMagic 11950 N. Highway 89 Flagstaff, AZ 86004 U.S.A. Phone: 520-526-9565 FAX: 520-526-9573 E-mail: info@infomagic.com Web: www.infomagic.com Resellers - --------- Please contact one of the above distributors for resale information. Finally : this is an exciting development for Linux which is causing waves throughout the UNIX industry. Linux has "Come of Age". Welcome to the Future Technology! Linux-FT is a trademark of Lasermoon Ltd. UNIX is a trademark of X/Open. All other trademarks acknowledged. - -- Info - info@lasermoon.co.uk WWW and FTP : www.lasermoon.co.uk Lasermoon Ltd, The Forge, Fareham Road, Wickham, Hants, England. PO17 5DE Voice +44 (0) 1329 834944 Fax: +44 (0) 1329 834955 +++ The UNIX & Linux Freeware Specialists! +++ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2i iQCVAwUBMUcpFIQRll5MupLRAQFL+wP+LW7EH+bhxu6Z4N5dlmoJlSZiQyfezNgZ 9M/CIkwCtyVpZh3Xf5vA9nD4mj9zz3V2HTQF7tQ6RWOM2jWQf85PhDALbRK4Xv/9 Z+FqfMaFFnocUlUhEIT9O6MFzwWwu5zRIY3XAly0E2iV0ShxKQDqXqtXpgKsQZ6X 5068XgQxMxk= =053i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- This article has been digitally signed by the moderator, using PGP. Finger wirzeniu@kruuna.helsinki.fi for PGP key needed for validating signature. Send submissions for comp.os.linux.announce to: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov PLEASE remember a short description of the software and the LOCATION. -- ----- End of forwarded message ---- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 14 23:26:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id XAA10278 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 23:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from haywire.DIALix.COM (root@haywire.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA10273 for ; Thu, 14 Mar 1996 23:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from news@localhost) by haywire.DIALix.COM (8.7.4/8.6.12) id PAA03367 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:26:39 +0800 (WST) X-Authentication-Warning: haywire.DIALix.COM: news set sender to usenet-request@haywire.dialix.com using -f Received: from GATEWAY by haywire.DIALix.COM with netnews for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (problems to: usenet@haywire.dialix.com) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 15 Mar 96 07:14:19 GMT From: peter@jhome.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Message-ID: Organization: DIALix Services, Perth, Australia. References: <199603130309.NAA17827@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au>, <7959.826786201@time.cdrom.com> Subject: Re: historical note.. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes: >> because my soundblaster won't record under FreeBSD 2.0.5. Yes, I'm going >> to decode my old tapes by bit-groping wav files! I figure that once I've >That's.. That's... That's TOTALLY SICK! >I like it! :-) Then you'd be interested to know that I did this once before on my Amiga (way back when... :-) I borrowed an 8-bit audio sampler for a weekend and at the end, I was reading and _writing_ Trash-80 tapes. But that's not all.. :-) Not long before I got the Amiga, I was using my Trash-80 (CC3) to read and write one of my friend's Amstrad CPC464 tapes as well! We used it on a couple of protected tapes to modify some of the games that he had (he was a dedicated Commodore-64 hater, we added a C64 to one of the shoot-em-ups so that he could blow away the evil C64 monsters :-). JI still have a pile of about 1200 pages of disassembled Z80 code.. :-) Sigh, those were the days... :-) > Jordan Cheers, -Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 06:11:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA01034 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 06:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.id.net (root@server.id.net [199.125.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA01023 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 06:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rls@localhost) by server.id.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA14699; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:12:05 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Shady Message-Id: <199603151412.JAA14699@server.id.net> Subject: Re: (fwd) A New Era for Linux has Arrived! (fwd) To: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu (David E. O'Brien) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 09:12:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9603150623.AA20756@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu> from "David E. O'Brien" at Mar 14, 96 10:23:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ----- Forwarded message ----- > > From: info@lasermoon.co.uk > Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce > Subject: A New Era for Linux has Arrived! > Followup-To: comp.os.linux.misc > Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 20:03:11 GMT > Approved: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov (Lars Wirzenius) > > POSIX.1 (FIPS 151-2) Certification > A Historic Development!! > (Availability : Intel and Digital ALPHA Architectures) > > Linux has achieved certification against a major International Standard > recognised and implemented throughout the computer industry. ====== > Good grief!!! More amunition for them. I wonder who in the world paid > the $$$ for them. Probably from Apple would be my guess.. -- Rob === _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ Innovative Data Services Serving South-Eastern Michigan Internet Service Provider / Hardware Sales / Consulting Services Voice: (810)855-0404 / Fax: (810)855-3268 / Web: http://www.id.net From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 08:21:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA07916 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from chrome.jdl.com (chrome.onramp.net [199.1.166.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07911 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chrome.jdl.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA26857; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:23:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199603151623.KAA26857@chrome.jdl.com> X-Authentication-Warning: chrome.jdl.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: peter@jhome.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: historical note.. In-reply-to: Your message of "15 Mar 1996 07:14:19 GMT." Clarity-Index: null Threat-Level: none Software-Engineering-Dead-Seriousness: There's no excuse for unreadable code. Net-thought: If you meet the Buddha on the net, put him in your Kill file. Compiler-Motto: Wintermute is dead. Long live Wintermute. Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:23:30 -0600 From: Jon Loeliger Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So, like Peter Wemm was saying to me just the other day: > jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes: > > >> because my soundblaster won't record under FreeBSD 2.0.5. Yes, I'm going > >> to decode my old tapes by bit-groping wav files! I figure that once I've > > >That's.. That's... That's TOTALLY SICK! > > >I like it! :-) Me too. Where's a good C-Load tape when you need one? :-) > one of the shoot-em-ups so that he could blow away the evil C64 monsters :-). > JI still have a pile of about 1200 pages of disassembled Z80 code.. :-) And since it appears to be confessional time, for the nominal price of a trip into the garage we can all go back in time... ...to our own Private Little Hell... [ wavy lines ] [ do-do-do-do ] [ wavy lines ] I've got the complete TRS-80 (mind you, I) ROM disassmbled and *hand annotated* . Yep, just had to figure that shit out back in the late >gasp< 70's. So I wrote a disassembler and slogged through it. Rolled tightly in really tiny print, it's a couple centimeters diameter's worth. That's about when I *first* decided I could do a better job than Microblob... and make my own programming language, written in Z80 assembly of course! And I've still got the good _Creative_Computings_ too! [ slap ] Ow! Uh, oh. > Sigh, those were the days... :-) Agreed.... jdl From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 15 10:41:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA18415 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:41:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18404 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01629; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:39:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199603151839.KAA01629@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu (David E. O'Brien) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (fwd) A New Era for Linux has Arrived! (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 Mar 1996 22:23:08 PST." <9603150623.AA20756@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:39:51 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> David E. O'Brien said: > Good grief!!! More amunition for them. I wonder who in the world paid > the $$$ for them. > > -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) Does this mean that if I buy motif from lasermoon that I will not have to hack their install procedures and that they fixed their motif bugs 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 20:20:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA21231 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA21226 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:20:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA01518 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:19:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199603170419.UAA01518@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 20:19:32 -0800 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I am curious to know if www.diamond.com is running freebsd. Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 16 21:06:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA22568 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA22563 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 21:06:30 -0800 (PST) From: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA11345; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:06:08 -0500 Received: (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA21294; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:07:29 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:07:28 -0500 (EST) To: "Amancio Hasty Jr." cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: any easy way to tell the OS of an FTP site? In-Reply-To: <199603170419.UAA01518@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, Amancio Hasty Jr. wrote: > Hi, > > I am curious to know if www.diamond.com is running freebsd. Telnet to them! For example, telnet://ftp.cdrom.com will produce something like FreeBSD wcarchive.cdrom.com Login: Actually, the alt.2600 faq has a whole section on identifying which OS xxx site is running based on what type of login prompt it gives you.A -- tIM...HOEk