From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 2 01:55:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA10694 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10686 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uQ8wG-000QdSC; Sun, 2 Jun 96 10:55 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA15734; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:34:14 +0200 Message-Id: <199606020834.KAA15734@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:34:14 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <5435.833388991@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at May 29, 96 09:56:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > >> If companies have coding style standards, why shouldn't a free OS project >> have the same? NetBSD, from time to time, makes KNF'ing runs through the > > Because we already have 200% more work to do than our volunteers can > deal with and having endless discussions and/or wars about someone > reformatting someone else's code is NOT the most productive use of > everyone's time. :-) That depends on how easy and reliable it is. I'd guess that reformatting the entire kernel sources with indent would take less than a minute. I've tried on selected files, and the result is not identical, but it's at least as legible, and it's more in conformance with KNF. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 2 01:55:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA10707 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10692 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uQ8wH-000QdTC; Sun, 2 Jun 96 10:55 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA15765; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:42:09 +0200 Message-Id: <199606020842.KAA15765@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:42:09 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199605301946.VAA22788@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at May 30, 96 09:46:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > The typografical rules say ~ 60 chars per line, everything else has to > be made two-column (a bit impractical for programs :). I've been thinking about this for a while, and I both agree and disagree. Yes, more than 60 chars per line become difficult to read, but I *do* use dual columns in my programs. There are these things called comments which I align in a column at the right (starting at column 50 by default). I don't like it when too many code lines run into the comment columns. > Of course, if you've already got 50 columns indentation, then it > would require a 110 chars wide display. So it's rather a question > of not nesting too deep. Well, I have a 110 char display--no problem with that. But I still only have about 50 to play with, including indent, for the code. > I know that stylistic issues are always religious -- but we are on > -chat here. ;) Why not talk religion from time to time? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 2 01:57:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA10790 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10785 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uQ8wF-000QdRC; Sun, 2 Jun 96 10:55 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA15752; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:38:11 +0200 Message-Id: <199606020838.KAA15752@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: wes@intele.net (Barnacle Wes) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:38:11 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199605300432.WAA28640@intele.net> from "Barnacle Wes" at May 29, 96 10:32:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Barnacle Wes writes: > > Michael Smith reported: > % Ehh, even the VT100 can handle 132 columns 8) > > Joerg Wunsch retorted: >> That doesn't make it better readable. Any text with more than ~ 60 >> ... 70 characters per line is unreadable. >> >> Not to speak about the eye-damaging small fonts required (not all of >> us can afford 29-inch monitors). > > Nah, just get a 17" monitor and use 12-point Lucidasans Typewriter. > With a 1024x768 X screen, it looks great at 110x40 or so... just > like what I see in front of me now! ;^) How do you get by with such a small display? Only 40 lines? I have 72, limited by the display resolution, and I could do with more. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 2 06:48:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA19466 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA19455 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id PAA20849 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:48:22 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA28047 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:48:21 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA00498 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:19:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606021019.MAA00498@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: kernel config part of /kernel To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:19:54 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606011721.LAA05505@intele.net> from Barnacle Wes at "Jun 1, 96 11:21:28 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Barnacle Wes wrote: > > (How about conditional compilation to config to allow/disallow it) > > How 'bout sticking it in a segment the kernel loader won't put in > RAM? Then it'd only cost a little disk space per kernel. No such segment. :) Wait for the kernel going ELF... Anyway, dset(8) allows to tweak the settings, so there's no reason why you should not be able to make it extracting them as well. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 2 07:14:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA20464 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda (ip57-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA20459 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA11494; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:15:46 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199606021415.KAA11494@hda> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606012259.PAA22318@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Jun 1, 96 03:59:16 pm Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Please quit addressing this as if it were anything other than a > kernel space issue. Should I follow up with commentary on indentation styles and big company lack of risk taking instead? What can be done portably in the kernel (and if it can be done portably) is governed by the user space issues. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 2 07:20:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA21211 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA21200 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA21490 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:20:42 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA28392 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:20:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA01837 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:03:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606021403.QAA01837@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:03:36 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606020834.KAA15734@allegro.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Jun 2, 96 10:34:14 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > That depends on how easy and reliable it is. I'd guess that > reformatting the entire kernel sources with indent would take less > than a minute. You'll most likely never get us to allow this again. The last set of cosmetical ``fixes'' of this type was the Great ``Remove trailing whitespace'' saga, and it has been considered a big mistake afterwards. It breaks all third-party software (and remember, many things of us _are_ third-party, since they've got bsd_44_lite vendor-branch tags). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 2 07:21:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA21254 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA21229 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA21497 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:20:43 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA28393 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:20:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA01867 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:10:53 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606021410.QAA01867@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:10:53 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606020842.KAA15765@allegro.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Jun 2, 96 10:42:09 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > > The typografical rules say ~ 60 chars per line, everything else has to > > be made two-column (a bit impractical for programs :). > > I've been thinking about this for a while, and I both agree and > disagree. Yes, more than 60 chars per line become difficult to read, > but I *do* use dual columns in my programs. There are these things > called comments which I align in a column at the right (starting at > column 50 by default). I don't like it when too many code lines run > into the comment columns. ``comment columns'' are not really sanctioned by KNF. Look at style(9) and into all the 4.4BSD-derived stuff, comments are usually aligned at the indent level of the code. You should not comment each and any line, it doesn't make the code better readable nor better understandable. Instead, usually a larger block should be commented explaining its purpose. This way, you won't have a need for two-column styled C programs. /* * Determine i/o configuration for a machine. */ static void configure(dummy) void *dummy; { configure_start(); /* Allow all routines to decide for themselves if they want intrs */ enable_intr(); INTREN(IRQ_SLAVE); #if NCRD > 0 /* Before isa_configure to avoid ISA drivers finding our cards */ pccard_configure(); #endif ... #ifdef MFS_ROOT if (!mountroot) { mountroot = vfs_mountroot; /* XXX goes away*/ mountrootvfsops = &mfs_vfsops; /* * Ignore the -a flag if this kernel isn't compiled * with a generic root/swap configuration: if we skip * setroot() and we aren't a generic kernel, chaos * will ensue because setconf() will be a no-op. * (rootdev is always initialized to NODEV in a * generic configuration, so we test for that.) */ if ((boothowto & RB_ASKNAME) == 0 || rootdev != NODEV) setroot(); } #endif ... The only comment that fits your description is the short XXX one. You'll notice that the above fits pretty into an 80-column world, and it's far from being unreadable. (It still violates the style(9) requirement of making comments full sentences wherever possible and useful.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 2 10:35:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00430 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00422 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA23495; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:30:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606021730.KAA23495@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: vt131 To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:30:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606020309.XAA28108@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Jun 1, 96 11:09:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Bill > > > ex-DEC Field Circus > > > Vax and VT100 board shuffler... > > > > uh... 12 lines. > > Terry -- are you sure it wasn't 14... 14x132 under EDT is burned in my > brain... the docs are in the Crawl Space -- should I take a look or isn't > it worth the bother? probably not worth the bother. I remember that it was half the number of lines (24/2). I guess 80 x 24 / 132 = 14.54, so they had enough memory for 14. I can dig out my manual (which isn't in a crawlspace 8-)) if you want. For some reason, I think they didn't do 14 because of the bank break-down. It could be I'm remembering the VT102 boards they put in the DEC Rainbow 100's... > The VT131 was a VT102 with block mode... The VT102 was a VT100 with > Printer Port and AVO -- but the VT101/VT102 used a different board set and > microcode and had a major number of very UGLY bugs in cursor speed until > the later rom revisions (and I think some VMS EDT workarounds to avoid > hitting some of these). The Real VT101/102 was a cost reduced > one board item instead of the VT100+AVO). The VT101/102 had a smaller power > supply and couldn't handle the Q-BUS backplane or VT180 Z80 CPU > which made them VT103(Q-BUS) or VT180 (CP/M). I've got both of them here. 8-). Feels like "old home week"... > There was also the PDT11/110 and 11/130 which fitted an LSI-11 chipset > in a VT100 making for a kind of workstation running RT11. The 11/130 used > TU58 DECtape. The 110 was downloaded over the serial line. We had one of those donated to WSU -- we ran RSX on it (my memory is now fuzzy 8-)). > There may have been a VT130 -- but I don't remember. Could it have been > one of those wierd Newspaper Composition/Editing Tubes like the VT78 > based stuff. The difference was 131 did block mode. 8-). > Actually, if you want WIERD -- there was the multidrop DDCMP VT62 (a 52 > with wierd DECnet support and a Reverse Video command and BLOCK MODE > designed for a transaction processing system called TRAX (which died or > mutated and became RSX-11M+). Ah, DDCMP. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 2 10:50:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01186 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA01180 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA23531; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:46:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606021746.KAA23531@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: hdalog@zipnet.net Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:46:41 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606021415.KAA11494@hda> from "Peter Dufault" at Jun 2, 96 10:15:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Please quit addressing this as if it were anything other than a > > kernel space issue. > > Should I follow up with commentary on indentation styles and big > company lack of risk taking instead? What can be done portably > in the kernel (and if it can be done portably) is governed by the > user space issues. It's *possible* to implement a POSIX system completely in user space on any Von Neumann machine. Yes, there are *some* semantics that specify "must be committed to stable storage", but these semantics are irrelevant to a discussion of why FreeBSD does so many writes on metadata and Linux doesn't, for the same metadata. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 3 01:44:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA20558 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 01:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA20552 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 01:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uQVFX-000QZOC; Mon, 3 Jun 96 10:44 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA10660; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:39:38 +0200 Message-Id: <199606030839.KAA10660@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:39:38 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <199606021410.QAA01867@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Jun 2, 96 04:10:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > As Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> The typografical rules say ~ 60 chars per line, everything else has to >>> be made two-column (a bit impractical for programs :). >> >> I've been thinking about this for a while, and I both agree and >> disagree. Yes, more than 60 chars per line become difficult to read, >> but I *do* use dual columns in my programs. There are these things >> called comments which I align in a column at the right (starting at >> column 50 by default). I don't like it when too many code lines run >> into the comment columns. > > ``comment columns'' are not really sanctioned by KNF. Look at > style(9) and into all the 4.4BSD-derived stuff, comments are usually > aligned at the indent level of the code. You should not comment each > and any line, it doesn't make the code better readable nor better > understandable. This is very much a matter of opinion. Obviously not *every* line requires a comment (lines containing a single { or } are pretty self-evident :-), but in general kernel code contains far too few comments. Where you put the comments is a matter of style, of course. > Instead, usually a larger block should be commented explaining its > purpose. This way, you won't have a need for two-column styled C > programs. Of course, if you put the comments where they belong, you wouldn't have a need for large comment blocks separated from their code. You can see this both ways. In fact, I see a need both for block comments and line comments. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 3 07:51:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA20591 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA20584 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA10191 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:50:32 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:50:19 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA02874; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:49:24 +0100 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:49:24 +0100 Message-Id: <199606031449.PAA02874@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199606021403.QAA01837@uriah.heep.sax.de> (message from J Wunsch on Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:03:36 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: Indentation styles From: Paul Richards X-Attribution: Paul X-Mailer: GNU Emacs [19.30.1], RMAIL, Mailcrypt [3.3] Reply-to: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "J" == J Wunsch writes: J> As Greg Lehey wrote: >> That depends on how easy and reliable it is. I'd guess that >> reformatting the entire kernel sources with indent would take less >> than a minute. J> You'll most likely never get us to allow this again. J> The last set of cosmetical ``fixes'' of this type was the Great J> ``Remove trailing whitespace'' saga, and it has been considered a J> big mistake afterwards. It breaks all third-party software (and J> remember, many things of us _are_ third-party, since they've got J> bsd_44_lite vendor-branch tags). Wasn't this because they weren't on a separate vendor branch? If they had been the new release would have patched cleanly against the vendor branch and then merged into the main branch without any problems. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 3 10:56:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA06458 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06136 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id TAA11455 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:51:24 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA19573 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:51:24 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA19354 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:24:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606031724.TAA19354@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:24:59 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199606031449.PAA02874@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> from Paul Richards at "Jun 3, 96 03:49:24 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Paul Richards wrote: > J> The last set of cosmetical ``fixes'' of this type was the Great > J> ``Remove trailing whitespace'' saga, and it has been considered a > J> big mistake afterwards. It breaks all third-party software (and > J> remember, many things of us _are_ third-party, since they've got > J> bsd_44_lite vendor-branch tags). > > Wasn't this because they weren't on a separate vendor branch? If they > had been the new release would have patched cleanly against the vendor > branch and then merged into the main branch without any problems. Well, they are no ``outside source'' patches, but internally maintained. Thus, they don't really belong into a vendor branch. Anyway, CVS is a nice tool, but everything with vendor-branching seems to be messy. Ask Peter Wemm for more detailed stories... The outcome of the Greate Whitespace Saga was ``Never again''. It was a rather useless operation that costed many hours of conflict resolution later. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 3 11:49:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09203 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09198 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA04309 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:48:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199606031848.LAA04309@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: fast wide scsi external case in Bay Area? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 11:48:54 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Where can I pickup a good external case for a Seagate Barrucada 4.9 scsi disk? I know that those drives like to run hot so a good fan is important for those disk drives. Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 4 12:54:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08658 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.98.68]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08643 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rjivan@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA06185; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:54:41 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:54:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Rajiv Jivan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Running an IRC Server Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am having problems getting the IRC Server to run on a 16Meg P66 PC. This is what I have done so far. 1. Downloaded the software from FreeBSD. 2. Changed the config.h file 3. Ran make 4. Ran make install 5. Changed the ircd.conf file Now when i type ircd I get the prompt back and the process is not in memory (checked using ps -aux ). I also tried running 'irc' and changing the server to www.hsc.wvu.edu. I doesnot work. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rajiv Jivan WebMaster RCB Health Sciences Center URL http://www.hsc.wvu.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 4 14:01:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13184 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13175 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intele.net (quervo.intele.net [206.29.206.19]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA08826 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:00:59 -0700 Received: (wes@localhost) by intele.net (8.7.4/8.6.5) id OAA15903; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:57:51 -0600 (MDT) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199606042057.OAA15903@intele.net> Subject: Re: vt131 (sort of) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:57:50 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606021730.KAA23495@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Jun 2, 96 10:30:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Pechter: % There was also the PDT11/110 and 11/130 which fitted an LSI-11 chipset % in a VT100 making for a kind of workstation running RT11. The 11/130 used % TU58 DECtape. The 110 was downloaded over the serial line. Terry Lambert: > We had one of those donated to WSU -- we ran RSX on it (my memory > is now fuzzy 8-)). I think you're recalling the heathkit H-11 we had in the lab. It was an LSI-11/02 processor with two RX-02 floppies (8", 512KB) running RT-11. Great system. ;^) -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... softweyr@xmission.com | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 4 16:24:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA21863 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA21857 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA27660; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:17:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606042317.QAA27660@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: vt131 (sort of) To: wes@intele.net (Barnacle Wes) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:17:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606042057.OAA15903@intele.net> from "Barnacle Wes" at Jun 4, 96 02:57:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Terry Lambert: > > We had one of those donated to WSU -- we ran RSX on it (my memory > > is now fuzzy 8-)). > > I think you're recalling the heathkit H-11 we had in the lab. It > was an LSI-11/02 processor with two RX-02 floppies (8", 512KB) > running RT-11. Great system. ;^) Nope; you're thinking of Bob's S100 box. Someone donated the real thing after you left. Dave ran it for a long time ..."If It's DEC, It Must Be Good" (tm). Actually, there was also an RT-11 box (a real one) that Leo Uttah killed to turn it into a desk, but we never got to play with that. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 5 15:06:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09588 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09459 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA14663; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:04:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:04:00 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Jake Hamby cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [cc list trimed, moved to chat, the proper location to bat aronud embryonic ideas.] On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > would be a modular installation/admin/tutorial/monitoring type tool, that > would be somewhat like training wheels: You would have tutorials (or > dare I say "wizards" :-) to help you out when you are still learning (you > ask it, "How do I create a new account?" or whatever), but on the other Lets not call them wizards. I think "Guru" is a little more in line with the unix tradition. Anyway, what the wizards amount to is a fusion of documentation and functionality. First there were racks of manuals in the other room. Then there were manuals portable enough to have on your own shelf, then we had online documentation, then programs with context sensitive help, and now we have a fusion of the help and the program. Another way to look at it is "Just In Time Documentation"---documentation delivered to your screen at precicely the moment you need it. It was either Ben Shneiderman or Don Norman who put their finger on it when they said that common tasks should be easy, infrequent tasks should be possible. Optimizing tools for the common case is easy. Lots of people use them a lot and provide great volumes of feedback to the designer. Its those infrequent tasks that are difficult. In unix, infrequently used (but essential) tools tend to have miserably usability. Seriously, when was the last time you manually invoked dump without having to read the man page and puzzle as to why you put all the options together as a string, and then put the values all together? The most glaring problem in this area is adding a disk to a system, which has been discussed to death in these mailing lists but little has been done to fix it. Installation is another infrequent task, and probably the only in the infrequent category that is getting any attention. > 2) Should be comprehensive, everything from adding users, setting up the > network (including Web server, NFS, etc), tape backups, printing services, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I was just thinking about this. This is a notable omission from the current install. If FreeBSD came with a very basic ascii to postscript filter, we could get basic text printing for most peaple with locally attached printers without too much fuss. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 5 15:36:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11522 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA11511 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uRRBs-0004KVC; Wed, 5 Jun 96 15:36 PDT Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:36:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: John Fieber cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: editors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, John Fieber wrote: > [cc list trimed, moved to chat, the proper location to bat aronud > embryonic ideas.] Guess I should subscribe to chat. Or at least don't drop me from the cc list! > On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > > > would be a modular installation/admin/tutorial/monitoring type tool, that > > would be somewhat like training wheels: You would have tutorials (or > > dare I say "wizards" :-) to help you out when you are still learning (you > > ask it, "How do I create a new account?" or whatever), but on the other > > Lets not call them wizards. I think "Guru" is a little more in > line with the unix tradition. Anyway, what the wizards amount to > is a fusion of documentation and functionality. First there were > racks of manuals in the other room. Then there were manuals > portable enough to have on your own shelf, then we had online > documentation, then programs with context sensitive help, and now > we have a fusion of the help and the program. Actually, I thought of "Guru" last night, but your talk of "wizards" made me forget. I even thought of an animation to go with it, a little guru (maybe the BSD daemon sitting in the lotus position? :-) with the caption "Guru Meditation" while it's working. Of course if you never owned an Amiga computer, you wouldn't get the inside joke, but cool nonetheless. :-) > Another way to look at it is "Just In Time > Documentation"---documentation delivered to your screen at > precicely the moment you need it. Good metaphor. > It was either Ben Shneiderman or Don Norman who put their finger > on it when they said that common tasks should be easy, infrequent > tasks should be possible. That's the problem with Sun's Admintool. Common tasks are easy, but even within a common task, there is usually a twist to it, or nonstandard option you need for any nontrivial task, and Admintool just breaks. What good is the use of adding a printer with Admintool if you have to hack around with System V command-line printer administration to get all the options set correctly? A much better role model is IBM's SMIT from what I've heard. > Optimizing tools for the common case is easy. Lots of people use > them a lot and provide great volumes of feedback to the designer. > Its those infrequent tasks that are difficult. In unix, > infrequently used (but essential) tools tend to have miserably > usability. Seriously, when was the last time you manually > invoked dump without having to read the man page and puzzle as to > why you put all the options together as a string, and then put > the values all together? The most glaring problem in this area > is adding a disk to a system, which has been discussed to death > in these mailing lists but little has been done to fix it. Hmm, just repartitioned my drive with a 750MB shared FFS partition between FreeBSD and Solaris and swap partitions on both drives, again shared between both OS's. Gotta document that! :-) > Installation is another infrequent task, and probably the only > in the infrequent category that is getting any attention. Yeah, sysinstall is pretty nice, but could stand to be a lot more modular. Maybe this summer I could settle down with Jordan and hack on it. If I have time... I hope.. > > 2) Should be comprehensive, everything from adding users, setting up the > > network (including Web server, NFS, etc), tape backups, printing services, > > I was just thinking about this. This is a notable omission from > the current install. If FreeBSD came with a very basic ascii to > postscript filter, we could get basic text printing for most > peaple with locally attached printers without too much fuss. Good idea! And definitely needed. Actually you need to go in the other direction too, a postscript to HP (or Epson, etc..) Ghostscript filter is needed for many home users. Even at work, I've used GS to connect to an HP Laserjet III which is my primary printer, so don't forget that not everyone has a Postscript printer. It'd be almost worth it to put GS into /usr/bin, it's not all that big. ---Jake From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 5 22:53:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA05275 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA05270 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id XAA16291; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:53:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199606060553.XAA16291@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: editors To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:53:21 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jun 5, 96 05:04:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk jfieber@indiana.edu said: > > 2) Should be comprehensive, everything from adding users, setting up the > > network (including Web server, NFS, etc), tape backups, printing services, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I was just thinking about this. This is a notable omission from > the current install. If FreeBSD came with a very basic ascii to > postscript filter, we could get basic text printing for most > peaple with locally attached printers without too much fuss. It's in there. It's called apsfilter, and it's in either ports or packages. All you really need to know is what language your printer speaks. (Mine, and Epson Stylus, is ESC/P2, just like it says on the printer.) -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... softweyr@xmission.com | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 6 07:38:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA05388 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA05382 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA19993; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:38:40 GMT Message-Id: <199606061438.OAA19993@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA187371920; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:38:40 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:38:40 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: softweyr@xmission.com Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606060553.XAA16291@xmission.xmission.com> (message from Barnacle Wes on Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:53:21 -0600 (MDT)) Subject: Re: editors Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Barnacle" == Barnacle Wes writes: Barnacle> jfieber@indiana.edu said: >> I was just thinking about this [printing]. This is a notable >> omission from the current install. Barnacle> It's in there. It's called apsfilter, and it's in Barnacle> either ports or packages. I think he means in /usr/bin, not added later /usr/local/bin. And doesn't apsfilter require ghostscript to handle non-PostScript printers? That'd have to be a part of /usr/bin, too. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 08:36:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23738 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23723 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id JAA13527 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:35:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Barnacle Wes Message-Id: <199606071535.JAA13527@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Change of address To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:35:47 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For those who may care, my email address has changed. InteleNET died of their own incompetence last week, so I've opened an account with the best ISP in Salt Lake City, Xmission. If you need me, you can find me here for a week or two, I should have my domain registered soon. ;^) In the meantime, send mail to softweyr@xmission.com. -- Wes Peters | Yes I am a pirate, two hundred years too late Softweyr | The cannons don't thunder, there's nothing to plunder Consulting | I'm an over forty victim of fate... softweyr@xmission.com | Jimmy Buffett From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 08:54:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA25795 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA25790; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA25347; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:54:09 GMT Message-Id: <199606071554.PAA25347@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA217862848; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:54:08 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:54:08 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: mpcd@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Snazzier FreeBSD home page Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Regarding: http://www.freebsd.org/~mpcd/ First, all I can say is ``about time!'' (Oh, but what a precious commodity time is!) Especially since the Linux home page (slowly at http://www.linux.org/) has had a nice looking layout for awhile. This is something I've been trying to do for quite some time, but I got hung up on the icons. (You'd think being limited to 16 or so colors on a 32 by 32 grid would make things easier, but it really does take artistic skill to make decent looking images with such limitations.) Anyway, I like the overall feel of the pages. The initial home page seems a bit `busy'. Left or right-justifying instead of the `stairstepping' of the quick links running down the left side of the page might help. Also, the badges of honor at the bottom don't work too well with the copyright and number of access information. The copyright could work better if relegated to a single line, running across the bottom of the page, and in a tiny font. Another way to clean up that area would be to get rid of the text that says when the counter was last updated---we really ought to just do our best to make sure it's always up to date. The update counter also shouldn't need to say from when you're counting. I agree that including that kind of information makes the information more statistically useful, but this is the world wide web! Who cares! (Actually, I don't like those popular page access counters since they usually don't give me any useful information---they're a lot more useful to the maintainer of the page. In FreeBSD's case, though, it's interesting to note that FreeBSD and Linux are fairly close together: 433723 to 481784 as of now or so.) Another thing that contributes to the overly busy appearance of the page is the plethora of fonts in use. I've got my browser-selected font, but then there's the 1970's sitcom title font for the links down the left side of the page, the FreeBSD logo font, and the bold and commanding sans serif for the `What's New' and `Quick Index' buttons. I'd suggest keeping the FreeBSD logo font since it's used in other pages to unify the display, but using the same sans serif in place of the 1970's sitcom title font. The `Quick Index' button yields information that's particularly thorough, but not exaclty quick. The popup window that appears after pressing `FreeBSD QuickLinks' would be more useful if it were smaller. Here's a place where icons might come in handy. Icons would also encourage more browsing by people who aren't familiar with FreeBSD yet pressed the QuickLinks button (which is likely). Overall, the Linux home page still has a more professional feel. As FreeBSD is obviously the more professional operating system because of its heritage and design decisions, it should strive to exude that same quality in its web pages. Were I in a position of power to choose between the two operating systems for a new ISP, and I had *just* the web pages to go on, I'd certainly think Linux is the more polished system. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 10:00:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01813 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA01805; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id NAA22561; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:00:35 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Sean Kelly cc: mpcd@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page In-Reply-To: <199606071554.PAA25347@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > Overall, the Linux home page still has a more professional feel. As > FreeBSD is obviously the more professional operating system because of > its heritage and design decisions, it should strive to exude that same > quality in its web pages. Were I in a position of power to choose > between the two operating systems for a new ISP, and I had *just* the > web pages to go on, I'd certainly think Linux is the more polished > system. > Geez, and I'd just think that Linux had wasted more time on appearances and less on content *grin8 (haven't seen the new pages yet, using a Wyse terminal from home tends to restrict ones usage of graphics *sigh*) Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 10:40:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05136 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [142.77.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05127; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <21005-2145>; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:40:16 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:40:11 -0400 From: Cat Okita To: Sean Kelly cc: mpcd@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page In-Reply-To: <199606071554.PAA25347@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > Anyway, I like the overall feel of the pages. The initial home page > seems a bit `busy'. Left or right-justifying instead of the > `stairstepping' of the quick links running down the left side of the > page might help. Also, the badges of honor at the bottom don't work > too well with the copyright and number of access information. I quite like the idea of the 'stepping', but graphically it outweighs every thing else on the page, not to mention that the 'shadowing' shows up very badly under my browser (it makes my eyes feel out of focus) > The popup window that appears after pressing `FreeBSD QuickLinks' > would be more useful if it were smaller. Here's a place where icons > might come in handy. Icons would also encourage more browsing by > people who aren't familiar with FreeBSD yet pressed the QuickLinks > button (which is likely). It would also be more useful if it was better integrated into the page - I had to check several times before finding it *wry grin* I think that the window is a reasonable size...but then again, I'm working on a good sized monitor :> > Overall, the Linux home page still has a more professional feel. As > FreeBSD is obviously the more professional operating system because of > its heritage and design decisions, it should strive to exude that same > quality in its web pages. Were I in a position of power to choose > between the two operating systems for a new ISP, and I had *just* the > web pages to go on, I'd certainly think Linux is the more polished > system. The linux page is more coherent - ironically enough, the linux page has a feeling of co-ordinated development, while the freebsd page seems to have been attacked by different groups of people, with different aims :? cheers! cat From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 15:55:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01188 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01173 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA01145; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:53:56 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:53:56 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072253.QAA01145@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: terry@lambert.org CC: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: The lawn-mower story Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My wife and I have a deal. We both 'work' on our lawn. I mow the lawn, she trims it. We both agree to stay out of each other's way because if we try to do it at the same time there are conflicts. Either I'm in her way or she's in mine at least part of the time. In order for this to work, one of us has to do *all* of the job in one part of our yard before the next person does the job, or else we end up with patches of grass that don't get mowed. Today I decide to mow the lawn. Normally, I do pretty well, and finish the entire lawn before I put the mower away. And, vice-versa normally my wife does a pretty good job and does all the trimming before putting away her trimmer. And, a couple of times (rarely) we've gotten in each other's way, but after working it all out (one of us gets kicked out of the yard until the other finishes) things pretty much work out. However, I'm a lazy guy today and I don't finish my end of the bargain, and I only mow half of the lawn, then I put my mower away to go watch the NBA finals. My wife isn't much of a basketball fan, so she decides to go out and do the trimming. Being the nice person she is (she married me, so she has *lots* of those sorts of qualities to put up with me) she doesn't say anything, but does her trimming as best as she can. Now, the lawn looks like crap because I didn't finish my job, but at least my wife did the best she could do from her end. And, I admit that it's my fault the lawn is ugly (ie; broken). My neighbor is a normally a pretty good engineer, and he proposed a solution to our crappy looking lawn. He claims that if my wife and I lock all the entrances to the lawn while we're working it'll make my lawn look better. Now, I'm thinking to myself, "Maybe I'm missing something, but the only problem thing that will do is keep my wife out of my hair while I'm mowing", but that doesn't happen very often. However, it doesn't solve the problem of me not finishing what I started before putting away the mower, which is *really* the reason my lawn looks like crap. Now, I could see my neighbors solution working if somehow I could be forced to finish the lawn before I put the mower away, but that requires someone (besides me) making sure the lawn is mowed and motivation for me to finish what I started. But, generally speaking there aren't alot of folks willing to babysit me who can come over whenever I mow that also can motivate me to finish it when I don't want to. Herein lies the rub: I have to trade-off the stigma of having a crappy looking yard because it's partially mowed, or have a situation where I'm forced against my will to do something I really don't have time to do. Or, worse yet I can just forget mowing my yard because it's too much hassle to get anything done. What to do, what to do..... Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 16:06:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02118 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02112; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA16880; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:06:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Sean Kelly cc: mpcd@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 09:54:08 MDT." <199606071554.PAA25347@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:06:14 -0700 Message-ID: <16878.834188774@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > First, all I can say is ``about time!'' (Oh, but what a precious > commodity time is!) Especially since the Linux home page (slowly at > http://www.linux.org/) has had a nice looking layout for awhile. Yes, I think that presentation is important too, whatever some other folks might say. :-) > Overall, the Linux home page still has a more professional feel. As > FreeBSD is obviously the more professional operating system because of > its heritage and design decisions, it should strive to exude that same > quality in its web pages. Were I in a position of power to choose Well, that's why we're having this final little feedback session. What do you think it'd take to give these proposed pages the same "professional feel" (or, ideally, a *more* professional feel :-)? Just the font changes you list above, or something more? Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 16:30:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03665 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03659; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:30:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199606072330.QAA03659@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072253.QAA01145@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 04:53:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > > My neighbor is a normally a pretty good engineer, and he proposed a > solution to our crappy looking lawn. He claims that if my wife and I > lock all the entrances to the lawn while we're working it'll make my > lawn look better. > > Now, I'm thinking to myself, "Maybe I'm missing something, but the only > problem thing that will do is keep my wife out of my hair while I'm > mowing", but that doesn't happen very often. However, it doesn't solve > the problem of me not finishing what I started before putting away the > mower, which is *really* the reason my lawn looks like crap. > ahh...you see my wife is smarter that your neighbor. first she built a fence around the lawn with locking gates. when i start to mow the lawn, the locks the gates and lcoks the house. i'm stuck outside with the lawn, the mower and the hot sun ;(( jmb ps. its a joke, son, a joke. dont ya get it -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 16:43:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04662 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA04654 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA04502; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:37:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606072337.QAA04502@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:37:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072253.QAA01145@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 04:53:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > However, I'm a lazy guy today and I don't finish my end of the bargain, > and I only mow half of the lawn, then I put my mower away to go watch > the NBA finals. My wife isn't much of a basketball fan, so she decides > to go out and do the trimming. Being the nice person she is (she > married me, so she has *lots* of those sorts of qualities to put up with > me) she doesn't say anything, but does her trimming as best as she can. > > Now, the lawn looks like crap because I didn't finish my job, but at > least my wife did the best she could do from her end. And, I admit that > it's my fault the lawn is ugly (ie; broken). Your wife did the best job she could under the circumstances; but by definition, "where you need to trim" is defined as "where the mower can't go". So your wife either had to work harder to guess where the mower could go without having "mower trails", or she had to delay her work until there were sufficient "mower trails" for her to do her job correctly. So she either had more work because you didn't do you job, or she had to delay her work because you didn't do your job. Now your neighbor, being a good engineer, proposed a soloution to your crappy looking lawn: don't let people look at the lawn unless it has been mowed. He claims that since the aim is to minimize work, that your wife shouldn't have to guess where the "mower trails" will be before they are there (unless of course, she's working off excess energy that would otherwise go into yelling at you for not mowing the lawn like you were supposed to). He also suggests that as part of your commitment to the partnership, that you either mow the lawn in its entirety, or you don't mow it at all, to save your wife the frustration of not knowing that, once you have started mowing, you will have finished mowing in a reasonable period of time. This is a policy, and he knows that you can subvert the policy by mowing the lawn in the places your wife looks to see if it's been mowed (out the kitchen window in back and the livingroom window in front), your mutual semaphores. So, you can still get your wife clipping without "mower trails" when she gets to the side yard near the roses, but since you might as well leave the mower running when you go from the front to the back, you will have to intentionally go out of your way to get your wife out there doing unnecessary work. As a protocol to implement the policy, you warrant the interaction by saying "you can look out the front and back doors to determine if it's time to clip, because I promise to do the side before the back". Now your wife can decide for herself when it is OK to clip the lawn without worring about needing to do extra work, and you can stop for the NBA finals without worring about needing to sleep on the couch that night. At the same time, the neighbor suggests that you mowing, and your wife clipping, aren't the only possible conflicts regarding the use of tools the lawn, and that the lawn is used for reasons other than applying tools to it. He says that he has another protocol to implement you and your wife's mutual policy of keeping "Binky", your cocker-spaniel, alive and whole. He suggests that you lock the dog-door so that it doesn't accidently let out the cocker-spaniel, who, like all cocker-spaniels, is so happy to see you that not only does he lose bladder control (as usual for the species), he gets sucked into the mower. By the same token, he suggests that your wife locks the dog-door while clipping so the cocker-spaniel, in a fit of happiness, doesn't poke his eye out on her clippers. This is a protocol, and he admits that since you don't actually *have* to lock the dog-door for the mower to start or the safety catch to come off the clippers, it will take a commitment on your part and your wife's part to keep the happy cocker-spaniels of the world happy (even if it does nothing for their bladder control). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 16:50:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA05344 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA05339 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA01472; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:49:26 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:49:26 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072349.RAA01472@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story In-Reply-To: <199606072337.QAA04502@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606072253.QAA01145@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606072337.QAA04502@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > He also suggests that as part of your commitment to the partnership, > that you either mow the lawn in its entirety, or you don't mow it > at all, to save your wife the frustration of not knowing that, once > you have started mowing, you will have finished mowing in a reasonable > period of time. All of these 'commitments' are in place already, but aren't being followed. The problem is that they *aren't* followed, not that they aren't in place. How to you enforce the unfollowed policies? I'm not following up my end, and people still drive by my house and look at my lawn. I can't stop that (and really shouldn't since I live in a 'free-lawn' neighberhood where lawns are all freely viewed by one another. :) > ....it will take a commitment on your > part and your wife's part to keep the happy cocker-spaniels of the > world happy (even if it does nothing for their bladder control). Yep, but having a committment was never the problem. Keeping the committment in the face of adversity is the problem. (And BTW, it's Jenny the yellow-lab puppy whose now 11 weeks old :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 17:30:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA08783 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA08777 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA04645; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:24:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080024.RAA04645@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:24:45 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072349.RAA01472@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 05:49:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > He also suggests that as part of your commitment to the partnership, > > that you either mow the lawn in its entirety, or you don't mow it > > at all, to save your wife the frustration of not knowing that, once > > you have started mowing, you will have finished mowing in a reasonable > > period of time. > > All of these 'commitments' are in place already, but aren't being > followed. The problem is that they *aren't* followed, not that they > aren't in place. How to you enforce the unfollowed policies? Well, there are two errors here, then: yours, for not finishing, and your wive's, for not waiting for you to finish to go clipping. The simplest way to enforce unfollowed policies is to specifically absolve your wife of any blame for your clipped-but-not-mowed lawn looking silly, if the policy allows her to clip before you're done mowing. A better way would be to make the clipping a dependent function of mowing the lawn as part of the protocol, and not only not expect your wife to clip the lawn before you are done mowing, but to decide that clipping is only OK after mowing. > I'm not following up my end, and people still drive by my house and look > at my lawn. I can't stop that (and really shouldn't since I live in a > 'free-lawn' neighberhood where lawns are all freely viewed by one > another. :) Well, what if there is a neighbor (John Locke? 8-)) who is willing to stand in front of your house if you tell him you are going to mow, and won't budge until you tell him you are done mowing (it's up to you to not lie to him; he only stands in the front, he doesn't look at the back). When people drive by, he waves his hands frantically an screams "Don't look at the lawn! Don't look at the lawn!" to keep people from being offended. Luckily, in your neighborhood, this is enough to satisfy the covenants that are attached to your deed regarding upkeep of your lawn, which you signed when you volunteered to live in the neighborhood. 8-). Now, if there is only one of these guys living on a block, and there are several people who want to mow their lawns (including Al, who threw four touchdowns in a single game, and never went to college, and whose wrist is bigger around than your neck), then we can probably trust peer-pressure to make you finish mowing in a reasonable time, letting John go stand and scream in front of Al's house. At the very least, John is loud enough that everyone knows where he is at all times, so they can ding your doorbell incessantly until you get up from the NBA finals and come to some agreement on how long you are going to hold onto John. As a favor, John is willing to tell your wife "it's OK to clip now" (mostly because he loves saying "it's OK to clip now" almost as much as he loves shouting "resistance is useless!") after you tell him you are done mowing. This lets her mutter "it's ABOUT TIME" at John instead of you (hurray! the marriage is saved 8-)). > > ....it will take a commitment on your > > part and your wife's part to keep the happy cocker-spaniels of the > > world happy (even if it does nothing for their bladder control). > > Yep, but having a committment was never the problem. Keeping the > committment in the face of adversity is the problem. Peer pressure, pure and simple. Plus, you look like an idiot, what with John expiring on your lawn after a week or so of hand-waving with no food or water. Much worse than if your lawn just looked silly. 8-). > (And BTW, it's Jenny the yellow-lab puppy whose now 11 weeks old :) Good... I don't much like cocker-spaniels. On the other hand, labs are pretty large, to get sucked into mowers, and they generally don't fit through dog-doors, so I guess it's a trade-off. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 18:10:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA12957 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from su1.in.net (su1.in.net [199.0.62.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA12951; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from backdrive.in.net by su1.in.net with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA20059; Fri, 7 Jun 96 20:08:56 -0400 Message-Id: <9606080008.AA20059@su1.in.net> From: "Jay Richmond" To: "Marc G. Fournier" , "Sean Kelly" Cc: , , Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page URL Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:10:44 -0500 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1085 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry, what was the URL fro the 'snazzier freebsd home page' ? I lost the original e-mail. Thanks a lot. --Jay jayrich@in.net http://www.in.net/~jayrich ---------- > From: Marc G. Fournier > To: Sean Kelly > Cc: mpcd@freebsd.org; jkh@time.cdrom.com; chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page > Date: Friday, June 07, 1996 12:00 PM > > On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > > > Overall, the Linux home page still has a more professional feel. As > > FreeBSD is obviously the more professional operating system because of > > its heritage and design decisions, it should strive to exude that same > > quality in its web pages. Were I in a position of power to choose > > between the two operating systems for a new ISP, and I had *just* the > > web pages to go on, I'd certainly think Linux is the more polished > > system. > > > Geez, and I'd just think that Linux had wasted more time on > appearances and less on content *grin8 > > (haven't seen the new pages yet, using a Wyse terminal from home > tends to restrict ones usage of graphics *sigh*) > > Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net > Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org > >  >  From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 18:17:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA13563 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA13553 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17659; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:15:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:53:56 MDT." <199606072253.QAA01145@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 18:15:33 -0700 Message-ID: <17657.834196533@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Or, worse yet I can just forget mowing my yard because it's too much > hassle to get anything done. That's my approach. I let the lawn grow until I start losing cats in it (or more start coming out) and then I call up one of the local gardeners who arrives with a machete'-wielding team of South American natives with genuine jungle experience and they cut it all down, bag it up and haul it off. Works every time! However, I'm not sure that this helps your already excellent analogy. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 18:27:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA14413 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA14406 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17726; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:25:43 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:49:26 MDT." <199606072349.RAA01472@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 18:25:43 -0700 Message-ID: <17724.834197143@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (And BTW, it's Jenny the yellow-lab puppy whose now 11 weeks old :) Whee! Hope you have wood floors! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 20:42:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29590 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA29576; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA28453; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:42:14 GMT Message-Id: <199606080342.DAA28453@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA106465332; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:42:13 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:42:13 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: mpcd@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <16878.834188774@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Jordan" == "Jordan K Hubbard" writes: Jordan> Yes, I think that presentation is important too, whatever Jordan> some other folks might say. :-) Hope they weren't referring to personal appearance ... ;-) Jordan> What do you think it'd take to give these Jordan> proposed pages the same "professional feel" (or, ideally, Jordan> a *more* professional feel :-)? *More* would be more better! :-) Jordan> Just the font changes you list above, or something more? Well, I did list more than just font changes ... but since you asked (you're going to regret this! :-), how about the following: Aside from the font changes, the cleanup of the copyright area, etc., I think a bit more uniformity might help. Let me explain: we have the standard FreeBSD links down the left of the page, making use of that visual element of the circle with the connected line. But then we have that 3-by-3 bulleted list featuring `Handbook', `FAQ', etc. They're a bit too disparate. If the bulleted items *also* used the same (or a similar) visual element they would help unify the page into a coherent whole. Finally, the page is a bit like one of my old girlfriends: a bit bottom-heavy. This is likely due to the badges of honor (VIP, UGU, Walnut Creek, etc.) being so colorful and occupying a fair chunk of real estate. I can see they've been sized down from their usual prominences, so let's not make 'em any smaller. Instead, we could try enlarging the FreeBSD.org part to balance things out. It'd help the eye linger a bit more on the material and track in a top-to-bottom fashion instead of immediately glancing through the other web sites available just a mere click away at the end of the page. Also, one small bug: pressing `FreeBSD QuickLinks' three times gives JavaScript Error: http://www.freebsd.org/~mpcd/, line 57: RepPal is not defined. That's on Netscape Navigator Atlas Preview Release 1 running on FreeBSD 2.1. Take care! -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 7 23:16:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA14756 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop01.ny.us.ibm.net (pop01.ny.us.ibm.net [165.87.194.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA14748 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by pop01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id GAA64071; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 06:16:42 GMT Message-Id: <199606080616.GAA64071@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sat, 08 Jun 96 02:14:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:06:14 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Well, that's why we're having this final little feedback session. >What do you think it'd take to give these proposed pages the same >"professional feel" (or, ideally, a *more* professional feel :-)? >Just the font changes you list above, or something more? First I would recommend you look at http://www.ibm.net/ An interface with small GIF map image can be both good looking and efficient. If you do look at that page notice that is pretty speedy (even with my 14.4). I also recommend you drop all the advanced features (Javascript?) you are using on the page which are not widely supported for most browsers. In other browsers, such as OS/2 web explorer when they look at the page it looks pretty bad. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 01:52:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA14707 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (root@sasami.jurai.net [206.151.208.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA14679 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA17930; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:50:45 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:50:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story In-Reply-To: <17657.834196533@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Or, worse yet I can just forget mowing my yard because it's too much > > hassle to get anything done. [Jordan's cats and jungle deleted] > However, I'm not sure that this helps your already excellent analogy. :-) I think this example works better if we deal with say, a public golf course. The scale is a bit larger. Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 02:23:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA23859 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA23816; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id aa25646; 8 Jun 96 10:22 +0100 Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa11465; 8 Jun 96 10:19 +0100 Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA29747; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:38:57 GMT Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:38:57 GMT Message-Id: <199606080038.AAA29747@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: scrappy@ki.net CC: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov, mpcd@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (scrappy@ki.net) Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (haven't seen the new pages yet, using a Wyse terminal from home > tends to restrict ones usage of graphics *sigh*) I've seen the home page, or rather most of it - packet loss between here and freefall is rather high at the moment and it was still downloading when hanging-up time arrived. So I never did get to see the "70s sitcom" font! -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland | http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ james@jraynard.demon.co.uk | jraynard@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 03:06:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA08013 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda (ip86-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA07993 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda (8.6.11/8.6.9) id GAA22390; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 06:10:09 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199606081010.GAA22390@hda> Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 06:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072253.QAA01145@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 04:53:56 pm Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > My wife and I have a deal. We both 'work' on our lawn... You can also have astro turf installed. There is a company in Santa Cruz that will do it at a good price. Peter -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 05:49:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA24438 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 05:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA24427 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 05:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA04026; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 06:49:39 -0600 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 06:49:39 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606081249.GAA04026@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: hdalog@zipnet.net Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story In-Reply-To: <199606081010.GAA22390@hda> References: <199606072253.QAA01145@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606081010.GAA22390@hda> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > My wife and I have a deal. We both 'work' on our lawn... > > You can also have astro turf installed. There is a company in > Santa Cruz that will do it at a good price. I'll get it costs alot more to do it given that they'd have to drive 3000 miles to Montana to install it. Besides, my puppy can't dig up astroturf, and 'sitting around on the astroturf' doesn't sounds like much fun. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 08:24:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01508 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01487; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA05654; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:24:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:24:32 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Sean Kelly cc: mpcd@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page In-Reply-To: <199606071554.PAA25347@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > Regarding: http://www.freebsd.org/~mpcd/ The subtle makeover of the second level pages is great. What I would add (if I had graphical talent) would be a a new footer containing Home and Index links that are graphically compatible with the new header. I'd also like to duplicate the top level categories from the home page for quick access, but I think there may be too many to easily fit. However, I think the new homepage is a visual disaster. First off, its much too wide. Pages should be somewhat tolerant of the *user's* preferred browser window size, the new design is not. Second its visual mishmash of text and graphics. On the left you have a graphical menu, which contains the "main" entry points, on the right you have a graphical "masthead" with a textual menu of "supplemental" links. My immediate impression is that the graphics on the left is sort of the "quick access" bar, while the text under the big FreeBSD.org graphic is the main menu which is exactly opposite of reality. If that weren't enough, some of the links are redundant, but with different names. (Developer Resources and Support Info.) Then, because the right hand side is smooshed horizontally, the copyright statement gets mangled. All the footer info should span the full width, or be re-designed. The graphical menu on the left? I'm not too enthused by the design, particularly the treatment of three word links. The "Masthead" looks good in general, but the "What's New" and "Quick Index" buttons are not visually compatible with the other graphical links on the left of the page. I think the space just under "FreeBSD.org" would be better used with the "Turning PCs into Worstations" or some such. If nothing else, the buttons at least need some hint of a top edge. The daemons need a little touch up. The daemon on the existing pages turns blue and washed out if you adjust the gamma. I spent some time with GIMP and got a much better image, but it still needs some tweaks before it could be used. The Javascript stuff is blatant netscapism and the button is visually incompatible with everythig else on the page. Do we have to hawe *two* VIP graphis in the footer? > sure it's always up to date. The update counter also shouldn't need > to say from when you're counting. I agree that including that kind of I STRONGLY DISAGREE. A page counter is utterly and completely meaningless without a reference to the time span. Just because everyone else puts stupid and meaningless junk on their pages is no reason for us to. If the date goes, the whole counter goes. I'm not terribly attached to it personally, since the logfiles provide a much better picture anyway. > (Actually, I don't like those popular page access counters since they > usually don't give me any useful information---they're a lot more And why is that? Because they don't give you a DATE! 8-) -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 10:59:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21876 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21861 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA05186; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:55:56 -0400 Received: (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA21191; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:57:26 -0400 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:57:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Nate Williams cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The lawn-mower story In-Reply-To: <199606072253.QAA01145@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > Herein lies the rub: > > I have to trade-off the stigma of having a crappy looking yard because > it's partially mowed, or have a situation where I'm forced against my > will to do something I really don't have time to do. Hire a student! (or, you could just try to *enjoy* mowing the lawn!! :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 12:35:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06227 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06213 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA00006; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:35:36 GMT Message-Id: <199606081935.TAA00006@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA118432535; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:35:35 -0600 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:35:35 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: reyes01@ibm.net Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606080616.GAA64071@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net> (reyes01@ibm.net) Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Francisco" == "Francisco Reyes" writes: Francisco> I also recommend you drop all the advanced features Francisco> (Javascript?) you are using on the page which are not Francisco> widely supported for most browsers. Not so fast. Consider first that Netscape Navigator is probably the world's most popular browser, available on a wide variety of platforms and with similar feature sets amongst the lot of them. I think taking a probabilistic approach here won't hurt. That majority of the audience would be more pleased to see us take advantage of their browser's advanced features. Besides, didn't Jordan say that there'd be a browser selection page? Further, it's possible to configure the server to look for the browser software in use in the HTTP request and deliver the appropriate page. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 12:49:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08374 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA08368; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA00034; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:49:38 GMT Message-Id: <199606081949.TAA00034@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA118953377; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:49:37 -0600 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:49:37 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: jfieber@indiana.edu Cc: mpcd@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from John Fieber on Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:24:32 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "John" == John Fieber writes: John> What I would add (if I had graphical talent) would be a a John> new footer containing Home and Index links that are John> graphically compatible with the new header. I'd also like John> to duplicate the top level categories from the home page for John> quick access, but I think there may be too many to easily John> fit. Agreed. That would enable people who've gone to deep to avoid having to back out. (Not that I browse that way, but believe it or not I've seen some people that do.) John> Then, because the right hand side is smooshed horizontally, John> the copyright statement gets mangled. All the footer info John> should span the full width, or be re-designed. That's what I said! ;-) John> graphical menu on the left? I'm not too enthused by the John> design, particularly the treatment of three word links. I knew there was something that bugged me about that menu. The FreeBSD Gallery is the only three-word button that works, and I think the only reason is that the word `The' is capitalized. The `Obtaining and Installing' button includes a lowercase `and' that doesn't give an indication of order. John> Do we have to hawe *two* VIP graphis in the footer? I assumed that they did it for free and that they could be allowed an extra advertisement as a result. >> (Actually, I don't like those popular page access counters >> since they usually don't give me any useful >> information John> And why is that? Because they don't give you a DATE! Wrong! John> 8-) Oh. Seriously, I could are less how many times other people have visited a particular page. Low number, I read the page. High number, I read the page. Oy! Am I missing out on some cognitive dissonance here to which I'm entitled? ``Quick, press BACK! There've only been TWO other people so far!!'' :-) -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 13:10:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11293 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA11265; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA06772; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:10:07 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:10:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Sean Kelly cc: mpcd@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page In-Reply-To: <199606081949.TAA00034@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > Seriously, I could are less how many times other people have visited a > particular page. Low number, I read the page. High number, I read > the page. I suppose the relevant question here (for which I don't have a handy answer) is whether or not you represent web surfers in general, or if you are an exception. 8-) I think graphical counters should be banned, since they usually break leaving your browser hanging until you figure out that its just another damn counter image you are waiting for and hit the big red stop button. There is also the fact of their wild inaccuracy because they (the ones I've actually looked into) are only triggered by browsers coming that (a) support images and (b) have image loading turned on, never mind caching. Also, people have been known to hook them up to random number generators. (Cooool! maybe we should upgrade freefall to -current so I can pipe /dev/random into the home page!!!) -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 14:55:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23993 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23921; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA29782; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:53:43 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA04606; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:53:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA00579; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:47:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606082147.XAA00579@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:47:50 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, mpcd@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606081949.TAA00034@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> from Sean Kelly at "Jun 8, 96 01:49:37 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Sean Kelly wrote: > Seriously, I could are less how many times other people have visited a > particular page. Use random(3). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 8 16:22:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA05207 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05201; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01765; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:22:06 -0700 (PDT) To: John Fieber cc: Sean Kelly , mpcd@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Snazzier FreeBSD home page In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 15:10:07 CDT." Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:22:06 -0700 Message-ID: <1763.834276126@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > have image loading turned on, never mind caching. Also, people > have been known to hook them up to random number generators. > (Cooool! maybe we should upgrade freefall to -current so I can > pipe /dev/random into the home page!!!) A well presented "random number of the day"? Why not? :-) Jordan