From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 7 03:49:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA15801 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 03:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from viking.ucsalf.ac.uk (viking.ucsalf.ac.uk [192.195.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA15792 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 03:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by viking.ucsalf.ac.uk (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0ucrP2-00036yC; Sun, 7 Jul 96 11:49 BST Message-Id: From: mw@theatre.pandora.sax.de (Martin Welk) Subject: Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ??? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 6 Jul 1996 21:46:37 +0200 X-Gated-To-News-By: news@ucsalf.ac.uk Xref: viking.ucsalf.ac.uk list.freebsd.chat:602 list.freebsd.questions:6985 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:21987 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <4r81kk$ovg@plato.ucsalf.ac.uk>, Mark Powell wrote: > Linux allows a kernel to be booted from DOS and then perform it's own RARP >to find it's IP and root filesystem over NFS. FreeBSD only seems to allow this >with the netboot.(com|rom) program (albeit using BOOTP.) We use this here to >allow users to turn their PC into an X terminal be selecting an option from >our DOS menu system. We currently do it with Linux. However, I'd prefer to >do it with FreeBSD, for obvious reasons. NETNOOT.COM does not work >if there is already a network driver loaded, as there is in our case. >Is there anything afoot allow the kernel to be configured with some of >the netboot.com functionality into the kernel? I experienced that QEMM screws up when running NETBOOT, so I simply created a boot menu under MS-DOS 6.22 and let people choose it at boot time - no network driver conflicts, no memory manager conflicts. -- /| /| | /| / ,,You know, there's a lot of opportunities, / |/ | artin |/ |/ elk if you're knowing to take them, you know, there's a lot of opportunities, Meissen, Germany, Europe if there aren't you can make them, mw@theatre.pandora.sax.de make or break them!'' (Tennant/Lowe) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 7 08:50:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08549 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 08:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA08530 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 08:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous235.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.235]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA05782 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:40:48 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA04672; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:39:51 +0200 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:39:51 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199607071539.RAA04672@campa.panke.de> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: source growth Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk $ cvs co -p -r src | wc tag lines words chars CSRG 1550797 5433954 37714292 bsd_44_lite 1467802 5178465 35824540 RELEASE_2_0 3581617 13879752 96688411 RELENG_2_0_5_RELEASE 3948192 15288222 106394680 RELENG_2_1_0_RELEASE 4013369 15538258 108293194 RELENG_2_1_0 4166320 16187532 112897708 (alias FreeBSD 2.1.5) current 4267977 16493959 115153082 Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 8 06:01:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA02174 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net (relay-4.mail.demon.net [158.152.1.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02169 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ae11758; 8 Jul 96 12:53 GMT Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa17114; 8 Jul 96 12:22 +0100 Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00223; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:00:12 GMT Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:00:12 GMT Message-Id: <199607081100.LAA00223@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de CC: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607071539.RAA04672@campa.panke.de> (message from Wolfram Schneider on Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:39:51 +0200) Subject: Re: source growth Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> Wolfram Schneider writes: > > tag lines words chars > CSRG 1550797 5433954 37714292 > current 4267977 16493959 115153082 What about the "true" origin of BSD, the Sixth Edition? The one where people used to carry around the complete (printed) source in their briefcases... -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 9 04:05:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA28964 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 04:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from viking.ucsalf.ac.uk (viking.ucsalf.ac.uk [192.195.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA28952 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 04:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by viking.ucsalf.ac.uk (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0udab4-00036zC; Tue, 9 Jul 96 12:04 BST Message-Id: From: mark@plato.ucsalf.ac.uk (Mark Powell) Subject: Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ??? To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 9 Jul 1996 12:04:45 +0100 X-Gated-To-News-By: news@ucsalf.ac.uk Xref: viking.ucsalf.ac.uk list.freebsd.chat:603 list.freebsd.questions:6986 comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc:22146 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <4rmfqt$fe2@theatre.pandora.sax.de>, Martin Welk wrote: >In article <4r81kk$ovg@plato.ucsalf.ac.uk>, >Mark Powell wrote: > >> Linux allows a kernel to be booted from DOS and then perform it's own RARP >>to find it's IP and root filesystem over NFS. FreeBSD only seems to allow this >>with the netboot.(com|rom) program (albeit using BOOTP.) We use this here to >>allow users to turn their PC into an X terminal be selecting an option from >>our DOS menu system. We currently do it with Linux. However, I'd prefer to >>do it with FreeBSD, for obvious reasons. NETNOOT.COM does not work >>if there is already a network driver loaded, as there is in our case. >>Is there anything afoot allow the kernel to be configured with some of >>the netboot.com functionality into the kernel? > >I experienced that QEMM screws up when running NETBOOT, so I simply >created a boot menu under MS-DOS 6.22 and let people choose it at >boot time - no network driver conflicts, no memory manager conflicts. Yeah, but I currently do this with Linux. The user's can simply select an option from our PC LAN menu system. FreeBSD can't do this, AFAIK. -- Mark Powell - Senior Network Technician - Room: C806 Computer Services Unit, University College Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK. Tel: +44 161 745 3376 Fax: +44 161 736 3596 Email: mark@ucsalf.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key) Home Page From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 9 09:15:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18716 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA18701 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:15:51 -0700 (PDT) From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu Received: from kongur (kongur.cs.ucdavis.edu) by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA22764; Tue, 9 Jul 96 09:15:46 PDT Received: by kongur (SMI-8.6/UCDCS.SECLAB.Solaris2-2.0) id JAA08760; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:16:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199607091616.JAA08760@kongur> Subject: Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ??? To: mark@plato.ucsalf.ac.uk (Mark Powell) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Mark Powell" at Jul 9, 96 12:04:45 pm X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>our DOS menu system. We currently do it with Linux. However, I'd prefer to > >>do it with FreeBSD, for obvious reasons. NETNOOT.COM does not work > >>if there is already a network driver loaded, as there is in our case. > >>Is there anything afoot allow the kernel to be configured with some of > >>the netboot.com functionality into the kernel? > > > >I experienced that QEMM screws up when running NETBOOT, so I simply > >created a boot menu under MS-DOS 6.22 and let people choose it at > >boot time - no network driver conflicts, no memory manager conflicts. > > Yeah, but I currently do this with Linux. The user's can simply select an > option from our PC LAN menu system. FreeBSD can't do this, AFAIK. If the network drivers are Novell, when the user wants an X-terminal, you could unload them (with the /U switch) and then run netboot.com. Maybe something like this would work? -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 10 00:52:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA18948 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plato.ucsalf.ac.uk (plato.ucsalf.ac.uk [193.62.40.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA18927; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by plato.ucsalf.ac.uk with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0udu48-000k5WC; Wed, 10 Jul 96 08:52 WET DST Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:52:08 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Powell To: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-policy@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RARP and bootparamd per NetBSD [was Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ???] In-Reply-To: <199607091616.JAA08760@kongur> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu wrote: > > >>our DOS menu system. We currently do it with Linux. However, I'd prefer to > > >>do it with FreeBSD, for obvious reasons. NETNOOT.COM does not work > > >>if there is already a network driver loaded, as there is in our case. > > >>Is there anything afoot allow the kernel to be configured with some of > > >>the netboot.com functionality into the kernel? > > > > > >I experienced that QEMM screws up when running NETBOOT, so I simply > > >created a boot menu under MS-DOS 6.22 and let people choose it at > > >boot time - no network driver conflicts, no memory manager conflicts. > > > > Yeah, but I currently do this with Linux. The user's can simply select an > > option from our PC LAN menu system. FreeBSD can't do this, AFAIK. > > If the network drivers are Novell, when the user wants an X-terminal, you > could unload them (with the /U switch) and then run netboot.com. They aren't Netware drivers. From looking at NetBSD-1.1 I see that it has similar functionality to Sun systems. A diskless system can obtain it's own IP address using RARP and then use RPC to talk to a bootparamd for further info. Comparing NetBSD and FreeBSD source we find that NetBSD has an extra file under the sys tree, nfs/nfs_boot.c. The code in this file performs the RARP request and also the RPC chat with the bootparamd. The code is called from the code in file nfs/nfs_vfsops.c. Looking in FreeBSD's nfs/nfs_vfsops.c at the function nfs_mountroot() the comments are: /* * Mount a remote root fs via. nfs. This depends on the info in the * nfs_diskless structure that has been filled in properly by some primary * bootstrap. * It goes something like this: * - do enough of "ifconfig" by calling ifioctl() so that the system * can talk to the server * - If nfs_diskless.mygateway is filled in, use that address as * a default gateway. * - hand craft the swap nfs vnode hanging off a fake mount point * if swdevt[0].sw_dev == NODEV * - build the rootfs mount point and call mountnfs() to do the rest. */ However, NetBSD's comment for the same are [nfs_boot_init() is in the nfs_boot.c file]: /* * Mount a remote root fs via. NFS. It goes like this: * - Call nfs_boot_init() to fill in the nfs_diskless struct * (using RARP, bootparam RPC, mountd RPC) * - hand craft the swap nfs vnode hanging off a fake mount point * if swdevt[0].sw_dev == NODEV * - build the rootfs mount point and call mountnfs() to do the rest. */ Thus it's just the ability to fill-out it's own nfs_diskless struct that FreeBSD lacks. Anyone know who to chat with regarding getting this put in the kernel? > Maybe something like this would work? > > -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) Mark Powell - Senior Network Technician - Room: C806 Computer Services Unit, University College Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK. Tel: +44 161 745 3376 Fax: +44 161 736 3596 Email: mark@ucsalf.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key) Home Page From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 10 05:44:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA09491 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA09480 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous213.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.213]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA23891; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:33:06 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA02589; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:42:49 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:42:49 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199607101142.NAA02589@campa.panke.de> To: James Raynard Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: source growth In-Reply-To: <199607081100.LAA00223@jraynard.demon.co.uk> References: <199607071539.RAA04672@campa.panke.de> <199607081100.LAA00223@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk James Raynard writes: >> tag lines words chars >> CSRG 1550797 5433954 37714292 The figures are not correct because many (GNU) utilities moved from src/contrib into source tree. This "imported" sources have of course no CSRG tag. >> current 4267977 16493959 115153082 > >What about the "true" origin of BSD, the Sixth Edition? The one where >people used to carry around the complete (printed) source in their >briefcases... From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 11 08:04:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18295 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA18282 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06538; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:02:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:02:16 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Mark Mayo cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to chat] On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Mark Mayo wrote: > I tried the "Tru-Form"keyboard. The ergonomics were quite nice - almost no > difference from the Microsoft keyboard. Unfortunately, however, the keys > didn't "feel" right... not enough posistive feedback from the key press. I > hate mushy keyboards, Okay, I'll cross that one off the option list. I like good crisp tactile feed back, but quiet. Consequently I love/hate IBM keyboards. Being in a computer lab full of them is like being in a shack with a tin roof in a hailstorm! I really liked Hewlett Packard keyboards that were made around 1990 (I don't know if they still make them the same). > for touch typists. I'm happy. Too bad it wasn't IBM that made it though!! Lexmark used to make a pretty nifty folding keyboard for a few hundred dollars, but apparently its been discontinued. :-( -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 11 08:08:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19224 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA19168 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06566; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:07:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:07:46 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: David Dawes cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607111400.AAA13294@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to chat] On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, David Dawes wrote: > before, even on some el-cheapo keyboards I've used. Of course, with > touch typing, the decals are almost redundant. Someone I know, in an attempt to learn touch typing, put silver write-protect stickers (for 5.25" floppies) on his keycaps. The result definatly had a minimalist look! Personally, I use a dvorak layout so the labels on the keycaps are pretty much irrelevant anyway. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 11 11:56:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25896 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25853 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA15678 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:55:21 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199607111855.UAA15678@grumble.grondar.za> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Who are these??? Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:55:18 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Pn page 32 of the WC catalogue there is a photo of "some of the people". Who are they all? I'd love to be able to put faces to names with some of them! I'm pleased to see the FreeBSD shirts! M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 11 13:45:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03302 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03293 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA27985 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:45:17 -0700 Received: (from chuck@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA28005 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:33:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:33:31 -0400 From: Charles Green Message-Id: <199607112033.QAA28005@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: www.yahoo.com Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone else notice that yahoo has a "Powered by FreeBSD" icon? *Nice* publicity! -- Charles Green, PRC Inc. Research & Development Rome Laboratory, NY From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 11 18:05:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA17969 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA17964 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04906; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607120104.SAA04906@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Charles Green cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: www.yahoo.com In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:33:31 EDT." <199607112033.QAA28005@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:04:58 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I can't seem to find the "Powered by FreeBSD icon" on http://www.yahoo.com Tnks, Amancio >From The Desk Of Charles Green : > Anyone else notice that yahoo has a "Powered by FreeBSD" icon? > *Nice* publicity! > > > -- > Charles Green, PRC Inc. Research & Development > Rome Laboratory, NY From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 11 18:52:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20272 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solidsys.solidsys.com (solidsys.com [206.109.2.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA20267 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camj.com ([204.120.253.62]) by solidsys.solidsys.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA22289; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:52:33 GMT Message-ID: <31E569A6.167EB0E7@solidsys.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:52:54 +0000 From: Cam Johnson Organization: SS NetCon X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5aGold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: Charles Green , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: www.yahoo.com References: <199607120104.SAA04906@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Hi, > > I can't seem to find the "Powered by FreeBSD icon" on http://www.yahoo.com > > Tnks, > Amancio > > >From The Desk Of Charles Green : > > Anyone else notice that yahoo has a "Powered by FreeBSD" icon? > > *Nice* publicity! > > > > > > -- > > Charles Green, PRC Inc. Research & Development > > Rome Laboratory, NY look at the Computers and the Internet section -- Cam Johnson SS NetCon, 5610 Guhn Rd., Houston, TX 77040 713-895-0500 or SS Netcon, 3010 Possum Trot, Brenham, TX 77833 409-277-9507 FAX 713-690-2722 email cam@solidsys.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 12 00:14:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09513 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09507 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03478 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:13:47 +0200 (MET DST) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [forw:] a ditty... Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:13:46 +0200 Message-ID: <3476.837155626@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Mountain View California" (Sung to the tune "Hotel California" by the Eagles) In a dark dim machine room Cool A/C in my hair Warm smell of silicon Rising up through the air Up ahead in the distance I saw a Solarian(tm) light My kernel grew heavy, and my disk grew slim I had to halt(8) for the night The backup spun in the tape drive I heard a terminal bell And I was thinking to myself This could be BSD or USL Then they started a lawsuit And they showed me the way There were salesmen down the corridor I thought I heard them say Welcome to Mountain View California Such a lovely place Such a lovely place (backgrounded) Such a lovely trace(1) Plenty of jobs at Mountain View California Any time of year Any time of year (backgrounded) You can find one here You can find one here Their code was definately twisted But they've got the stock market trends They've got a lot of pretty, pretty lawyers That they call friends How they dance in the courtroom See BSDI sweat Some sue to remember Some sue to forget So I called up Kernighan Please bring me ctime(3) He said We haven't had that tm_year since 1969 And still those functions are calling from far away Wake up Jobs in the middle of the night Just to hear them say Welcome to Mountain View California Such a lovely Place Such a lovely Place (backgrounded) Such a lovely trace(1) They're livin' it up suing Mountain View California What a nice surprise What a nice surprise (backgrounded) Bring your alibies Windows NT a dreaming Pink OS on ice And they said We are all just prisoners here Of a marketing device And in the judges's chambers They gathered for the feast They diff(1)'d the source code listings But they can't kill -9 the beast Last thing I remember I was restore(8)'ing | more(1) I had to find the soft link back to the path I was before sleep(3) said the pagedaemon We are programmed to recv(2) You can swap out any time you like But you can never leave(1) [ substitute whirring of disk and tape drives for guitar solo ] From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 12 08:56:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21168 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA21162 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA10922; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:55:39 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:55:38 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Cam Johnson cc: Amancio Hasty , Charles Green , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: www.yahoo.com In-Reply-To: <31E569A6.167EB0E7@solidsys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Cam Johnson wrote: > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > I can't seem to find the "Powered by FreeBSD icon" on http://www.yahoo.com > look at the Computers and the Internet section And if you look at http://www.yahoo.com/docs/pr/credits.html, you will find: . . . FreeBSD - Some of our web servers run FreeBSD. . . . -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 12 10:56:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01072 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA01067 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00919; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607121753.KAA00919@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: John Fieber cc: Cam Johnson , Charles Green , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: www.yahoo.com In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:55:38 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:53:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Neato ! Tnks also to all who responded Amancio >From The Desk Of John Fieber : > On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Cam Johnson wrote: > > > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > I can't seem to find the "Powered by FreeBSD icon" on http://www.yahoo.co m > > look at the Computers and the Internet section > > And if you look at http://www.yahoo.com/docs/pr/credits.html, you > will find: > > . > . > . > > FreeBSD - Some of our web servers run FreeBSD. > > . > . > . > > > -john > > == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== > == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 12 15:04:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA21553 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA21546 for chat; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:04:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199607122204.PAA21546@freefall.freebsd.org> To: chat Subject: microsquish ......baaaad! Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk they bounce mail back at you saying its undeliverable well that's okay whats the address that's undeliverable? can you find it for me?? ;) Subject: Undeliverable: Re: summary of changes my changes in current recently Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:48:16 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.985.1 Encoding: 17 TEXT, 41 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: MSG03663.TXT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients. To: julian@freefall.freebsd.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org; current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: summary of changes my changes in current recently Sent: 7/12/96 0:14:51 AM The following recipient(s) could not be reached: Bruce E. Johnson on 7/12/96 0:48:15 AM One or more arguments in the recipient was detected as being invalid MSEXCH:MSExchangeMTA:northamerica:RED-05-IMC Original Message Follows Bruce E. Johnson on 7/12/96 0:48:15 AM aint no email address that i have ever seen before. and what's this Encoding: headesr?? should that have been X-Encodeing or should /did they mean to do MIME. dorfs! jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 12 17:49:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA27560 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA27550; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA00115; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 20:49:04 -0400 Received: (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA26103; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 20:50:39 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 20:50:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: microsquish ......baaaad! In-Reply-To: <199607122204.PAA21546@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.985.1 > > Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients. > > To: julian@freefall.freebsd.org > Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org; current@FreeBSD.org > > The following recipient(s) could not be reached: > > Bruce E. Johnson on 7/12/96 0:48:15 AM > One or more arguments in the recipient was detected as being invalid > MSEXCH:MSExchangeMTA:northamerica:RED-05-IMC > > Bruce E. Johnson on 7/12/96 0:48:15 AM aint no email address that i have ever > seen before. They think you're a hacker-daemon sent from the evil FreeBSD Inc. coming to get them! You should be proud -- inspiring FEAR in their hearts! ;) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 12 18:03:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA28144 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA28139; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00608; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:03:33 -0400 Received: (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA27752; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:05:08 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:05:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [forw:] a ditty... In-Reply-To: <3476.837155626@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > "Mountain View California" fortune! fortune! -- > > (Sung to the tune "Hotel California" by the Eagles) > > In a dark dim machine room > Cool A/C in my hair -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 12 21:31:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA06398 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA06393; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA03995; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:31:21 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id GAA14225; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:30:28 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.Alpha.5/keltia-uucp-2.8) id BAA19838; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 01:17:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199607122317.BAA19838@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: microsquish ......baaaad! To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 01:17:02 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607122204.PAA21546@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jul 12, 96 03:04:54 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2220 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Jonathan M. Bresler said: > and what's this Encoding: headesr?? should that have been X-Encodeing > or should /did they mean to do MIME. Do you really expect Micro$oft to understand MIME ? MS-Fail is a complete disaster in almost every respect and although I've heard Exchange is somewhat better, I'm still weary of them... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #14: Thu Jul 11 22:38:57 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 02:10:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA25197 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 02:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA25159 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 02:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA26024 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:09:57 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA10248 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:09:56 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA22842 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:57:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607130757.JAA22842@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: microsquish ......baaaad! To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:57:15 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607122204.PAA21546@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jul 12, 96 03:04:54 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > they bounce mail back at you saying its undeliverable Wow, they finally got it to bounce it back to the envelope sender address, instead of the From: address??? That's new! > well that's okay > whats the address that's undeliverable? Sue Micro$oft. They've apparently got their own RFC's. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 02:10:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA25241 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 02:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA25190; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 02:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA26028; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:09:58 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA10249; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:09:58 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA22896; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:02:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607130802.KAA22896@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Preach it (was Some recent changes to GENERIC) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:02:26 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: pjchilds@imforei.apana.org.au, terry@lambert.org, phk@freebsd.org (Poul-Henning Kamp) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3731.837161036@critter.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Jul 12, 96 10:43:56 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > I agree, how about this for a revolution: > > I have this idea about putting tcl in the kernel. I can imagine some > rather interesting possibilities this would give us. Ah, this is the so-called ``kitchen-sink'' kernel then! :-) Of course, you know that we will only agree to include Tcl into the kernel if we also include a Perl compiler, and a full Emacs, and perhaps a Netcrap. Makes for a full kitchen-sink then... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 02:35:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA27065 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 02:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA27049 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 02:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous234.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.234]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA05330 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:30:36 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00263; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:28:37 +0200 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:28:37 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199607130928.LAA00263@campa.panke.de> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: I got my plushies Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ;-) Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 03:52:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA04041 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 03:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA03987 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 03:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id MAA27873 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:51:52 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id MAA12087 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:51:51 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA23853 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:26:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607131026.MAA23853@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: I got my plushies To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:26:37 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607130928.LAA00263@campa.panke.de> from Wolfram Schneider at "Jul 13, 96 11:28:37 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > ;-) Shameless plug: my employer ordered a 1 meter version, and hey, it's really cute! Everybody loves him. (It's around DM 520 + shipping, for the curious.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 10:46:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26879 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.utexas.edu (root@mail.cs.utexas.edu [128.83.139.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26847 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oink.cs.utexas.edu (miker@oink.cs.utexas.edu [128.83.138.84]) by mail.cs.utexas.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA08242 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:46:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Hung Michael Nguyen Received: by oink.cs.utexas.edu (8.7.1/Client-1.4) id MAA03210; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:46:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199607131746.MAA03210@oink.cs.utexas.edu> Subject: What's so evil about GPL To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:46:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I have heard many a times on the various FreeBSD fora that GPL is in some way 'bad'. Can somebody clue me in as to exactly why (esp. vs. the BSD copyright)? Thanks, Mike. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 11:44:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03691 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA03681 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA06616; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:44:38 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA15362; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:44:38 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01435; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:36:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607131836.UAA01435@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:36:28 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607131256.OAA11754@allegro.lemis.de> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 13, 96 02:56:16 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > touch-typist. That's why I'm still holding on to my dying Northgate > keyboards, which have the F keys on the left, where I can access them > without looking. Why did they ever move them away to where you can't > find them? 'cause fewer and fewer people know how to use a keyboard. That's why kindergarten icon games like winloose have the reputation of being ``user-friendly''. (Moved to -chat, of course.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 12:23:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05596 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05589 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA07337; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:22:12 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA15591; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:22:12 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01619; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:54:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607131854.UAA01619@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:54:48 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: miker@cs.utexas.edu (Hung Michael Nguyen) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607131746.MAA03210@oink.cs.utexas.edu> from Hung Michael Nguyen at "Jul 13, 96 12:46:12 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Hung Michael Nguyen wrote: > I have heard many a times on the various FreeBSD fora that GPL is in some > way 'bad'. Can somebody clue me in as to exactly why (esp. vs. the BSD > copyright)? Basically, three points here: . It's bloated. You need a dozen lawyers to understand it, and of course, they won't understand it either, but come up with 13 different opinions instead. :) . You are forced to become a software redistribution institution once you have modified some of the source code, and intend to redistrib- ute your modified work. . You are explicitly requested to demand at most the distribution costs as a fee, but nothing more. While this basically seems to be a good idea, consider the following: Some of our customers live in a world where they believe that good software must be expensive. If you offer them something for say USD 100, they won't pick it but buy for example something like sc0 instead. You *have* to offer them the freeware stuff for money, in order to even get it into consider- ation! (This doesn't change a bit in the overall gain we would make out of it. We only slightly shuffle the figures we're presenting them. But with GPL, you are legally not allowed to offer it for money.) In short: the GPL is good for an ideal world. Alas, we live in a real world. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 13:39:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10383 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10376 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18616; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:39:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:39:25 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Joerg Wunsch cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607131836.UAA01435@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > 'cause fewer and fewer people know how to use a keyboard. > > That's why kindergarten icon games like winloose have the reputation > of being ``user-friendly''. It has nothing to do with typing ability. It has everything to do with the basic fact that humans are far better at recognition than recall. Recall may be more efficient, but only comes after a great time investment in memorization. For infrequent users, or infrequent tasks, recall will never be as efficient as recognition. While a true unix junkie will not fit the infrequent user category, they will encounter infrequent tasks. For those I'd much rather have a visual interface that facilitates recognition than dig through a bunch of obtuse documentation. Unix systems trivialize recognition enabled interfaces, Windows, and to a greater degree Mac, trivialize recall enabled interfaces. A vast majority of the computing market has made it pretty clear that if a compromise must be made, it will be in favor of recognition. It is important enough that people will put up with cheesy operating systems that crash on a regular basis if that is the only way to get it. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 21:38:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA07063 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA07055 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA13056; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:37:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:37:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607140437.WAA13056@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, miker@cs.utexas.edu (Hung Michael Nguyen) Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL In-Reply-To: <199607131854.UAA01619@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <199607131746.MAA03210@oink.cs.utexas.edu> <199607131854.UAA01619@uriah.heep.sax.de> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J. Wunsch writes: > As Hung Michael Nguyen wrote: > > > I have heard many a times on the various FreeBSD fora that GPL is in some > > way 'bad'. Can somebody clue me in as to exactly why (esp. vs. the BSD > > copyright)? > > Basically, three points here: [ Point 1 deleted ] > . You are forced to become a software redistribution institution once > you have modified some of the source code, and intend to redistrib- > ute your modified work. . You are *forced* to distribute any changes you make (significant and/or insignficant) as sources, which may be difficult for 'political' reasons or for technical reasons. If the reason your product is 'better' than your competitors product happens to be something that took a significant amount of time and $$ to develop, having to give away the source code means you are much less likely to recoup your investment. > . You are explicitly requested to demand at most the distribution > costs as a fee, but nothing more. Nope, the GPL allows you to charge whatever you want. You can charge a billion $$ for the code, but that person could turn around and give what they have away to anyone. So, the 'effect' of the GPL is to force people to sell their 'distributions' or 'packaging' of the code, and not the code itself. In effect, programmers become 'publishers', since the time and effort we spend coding isn't worth any monetary value unless it's done for the sake of 'maintenance'. Once the code is written, the code has no intrinsic value. The value is in the 'time' taken to do the product, not in the product itself. So, many of the folks who distribute GPL sources (Redhat, Caldera) copyright their packaging of the sources, but not the sources themselves. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 13 22:34:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA10365 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA10353 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id AAA03007; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:34:25 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199607140534.AAA03007@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: What's so evil about GPL To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 00:34:25 -0500 (EST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, miker@cs.utexas.edu In-Reply-To: <199607140437.WAA13056@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jul 13, 96 10:37:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > J. Wunsch writes: > > As Hung Michael Nguyen wrote: > > > > > I have heard many a times on the various FreeBSD fora that GPL is in some > > > way 'bad'. Can somebody clue me in as to exactly why (esp. vs. the BSD > > > copyright)? > > > > Basically, three points here: > > [ Point 1 deleted ] > > > . You are forced to become a software redistribution institution once > > you have modified some of the source code, and intend to redistrib- > > ute your modified work. > > . You are *forced* to distribute any changes you make (significant > and/or insignficant) as sources, which may be difficult for 'political' > reasons or for technical reasons. > Or for economic ones. We live in a NON-GPL world, and it is likely to stay so for a long-long time. I am simply not young enough to change the world's economic system before I die. >If the reason your product is > 'better' than your competitors product happens to be something that took > a significant amount of time and $$ to develop, having to give away the > source code means you are much less likely to recoup your investment. > I don't mind giving away other's source code (if they wish, and if it doesn't cost me very much to do so), however the cost of IP is not ZERO, and in fact can be very high. I choose to give away my IP that I produce for FreeBSD, and thank goodness, I can grab a copy of FreeBSD for my commercial use -- make proprietary mods to my hearts content, and sell it in a toaster :-). I don't have to worry about redistribution encumberances or encumberances of IP that I don't choose to free. My work on free software is funded by my work on proprietary software, and my employer happens to accept and support my work with "that-a-boy", but no money :-(. > > So, many of the folks who distribute GPL sources (Redhat, Caldera) > copyright their packaging of the sources, but not the sources > themselves. > So a distribution that is made up of GPLed code isn't GPL copyrighted :-). Sounds like a very consistant situation to me :-). I like simple licenses, simple rules, and sure wish we could FREE FreeBSD of all GPL and other restrictive IP encumberances. The runtime and kernel are pretty free already, but the development tools and certain utilties are unfortunately encumbered. John