From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 2 11:30:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05390 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ng.netgate.net (root@ng.netgate.net [204.145.147.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05385 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from s29.netgate.net (s29.netgate.net [205.214.175.29]) by ng.netgate.net (8.7.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA07987 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 11:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <322B273C.4E68@netgate.net> Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 11:28:12 -0700 From: Matt Clark Reply-To: narf@netgate.net Organization: M&E Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: GNNserver Equals? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know about a server/client set that is equal to GNNserver/GNNpress? GNNserver is basicly a HTTP server that allows for the HTTP PUT command (Used to be NaviServer). GNNpress is an authoring tool that lets you upload the files easily to the server. Apparently, they are not supporting FreeBSD anymore because 'the pthreads lib is buggy' (I think they are using MIT's version). Anyone? (We've tried FrontPage) --matt Clark From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 3 06:52:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA29834 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA29827 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA28332 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:22:20 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199609031352.XAA28332@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Latest Current build failure To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:22:19 +0930 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9251.841752628@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Sep 3, 96 05:10:28 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > Sigh. No matter what trade-offs one takes, it seems, there's at least > one immutable constant: "Ya just can't win!" :-) Hmm. Don't let the turkeys get you down. I'd say there are a lot of people (er, like me) who have benefitted either directly or indirectly from the telling-off of -current newbies and who have become seasoned -current followers/users (and maybe contributors). Making the early steps on the road to working seriously with FreeBSD technical (dealing with -current) rather than political (seducing your way into some mythical 'inner circle') was IMHO a Good Idea, and not one to be regretted. > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 3 15:04:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28800 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28758 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA05164; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:01:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199609032201.PAA05164@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply To: darrend@novell.com (Darren Davis) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:01:10 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Darren Davis" at Sep 3, 96 03:06:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just one question. > > What is this OpenBSD thing? I have never heard of the term. OpenBSD the source code is the NetBSD sources base + fixes from various places, including FreeBSD. OpenBSD the political entity is somewhat different. OpenBSD's "claim to fame" is that it tries to divorce itself from the "good ol' boy network" inherent in the core team organization of the NetBSD and FreeBSD. A lot of people see the current NetBSD and FreeBSD organizations as imposing a "tunneling barrier energy" which you have to overcome to get to the next higher stable state. I have to take responsibility for the organization template copied from the "FreeBSD + patchkit" days. The template resulted from the inherent requirement for a central serialization authority for patches because the tools I built were simply not up to arbitrating concurrent developement. This may, in fact, have been a key contributor to the NetBSD/386BSD split -- I know that there were at least two people who later became initial members of the NetBSD core team who tried to "roll their own" patches in patchkit format, only to have them formally rejected. Not because they sucked, but because they disrupted the serialization mechanism (this didn't stop the people involved from assuming that the reason for the rejection was a personal attack, however). OpenBSD's main failing is that it does not impose process controls to do the coherency control job that the "good ol' boy network" does for FreeBSD and NetBSD. It is currently metastable because it does not have a significantly larger number of people than are in the NetBSD or FreeBSD core teams actually hacking on or checking in code. To go back to the electron tunnelling analogy, OpenBSD has less barrier to moving forward, but at the same time it would probably take significantly less energy to get it rolling down hill as easily as up hill. The result would be a throwing on of the brakes, either unidirectionally, in the form of increased process complexity, or bidirectionally, in the form of a tiered management structure (aka a "core team"). Political structures are interesting because their behaviour is more easily subject to rigorous mathematical analysis than, for instance, an individual's behaviour. The "path of least resistance" for "throwing on the brakes" is a tiered management structure ("some pigs more equal than others"); I suspect that an increase in process complexity would be fought just as bitterly by the initial OpenBSD comitters as it was fought in NetBSD (leading to the formation of OpenBSD in the first place), or as bitterly as the current argument about the buildability of "-current" taking place on the other list right now. Given that, and some mathematical modelling that I won't go into because it is too hard to represent in ASCII, I predict that OpenBSD will probably develop its own core team, unless it takes exceptional care. It might take that care anyway as a method of product differentiation, just as FreeBSD and NetBSD have arrived at an accommodation on their "product differentiation". Currently, however, OpenBSD could be described as "lacking brakes", with both the good and bad consequences thereof. I supposed the ideal system would have unidirectional brakes, to inhibit rolling back down hill, but to avoid posing a barrier to forward movement. So far, none of the BSD camps has arrived at a political design which implements this. If you project the potential well for tunnelling into a three dimensional saddle curve, with Linux on one end (control imbued in an individual), OpenBSD on the other end (with a flat curve asymtotically approaching the tangent), then NetBSD and FreeBSD are somewhere in the middle. This implies that the only reason process changes don't take place is (social) inertia along the Z axis. Novell/USG (where you an I both worked) had the exact same problem, projected along the inverted Z axis. At USL, the process *was* the product, and the tree because inertially fixed by process limitations instead of becoming inertially fixed by change limitations inherent in the number of reasonably managable participants, defined as sizeof(core team). At USL, it was the limit on the number of people allowed to write the source tree, and the inherent organizational limitationon the the ability to make changes which were larger in scope than one component branch of a checked out source tree. You couldn't make sweeping changes in the UNIX source base because it was impossible to coordinate them over all of the affected platforms because of the way their source tree management process was arranged. This applied equally to sweeping changes for the better as to sweeping changes for the worse -- bidirectional brakes. Ed Lane described this process as what he called "AI", or "Artificial Importance" -- useless limitations on process output caused by useless limitations on process complexity. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 3 15:42:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00868 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA00862 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA27527; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:38:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:38:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609032238.QAA27527@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Terry Lambert Cc: darrend@novell.com (Darren Davis), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: <199609032201.PAA05164@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199609032201.PAA05164@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I have to take responsibility for the organization template copied > from the "FreeBSD + patchkit" days. You're taking too much credit for something you had no part in. FreeBSD came about because of the technical problems of the patchkit (which were great and many), but the non-technical organization you had nothing to do with, positive or negative. > The template resulted from the inherent requirement for a central > serialization authority for patches because the tools I built were > simply not up to arbitrating concurrent developement. That wasn't the problem, though it did lead to patchkit co-ordinator early-burnout after a few months. :) > This may, in fact, have > been a key contributor to the NetBSD/386BSD split -- I know that > there were at least two people who later became initial members of > the NetBSD core team who tried to "roll their own" patches in > patchkit format, only to have them formally rejected. Umm, no. A 'patchkit co-ordinator' was offered the position, and this person refused to answer email, calls, etc.. so a new co-ordinator was chosen. The 'replaced' PC rolled some patches which were taken offline of the sites, but that person never contributed to any of the BSD's since that point in any real way. He wasn't part of NetBSD, FreeBSD, or OpenBSD. The 'patchkit mentality' had *nothing* to do with the split of Net/FreeBSD. The primary reason was personalities, not the least of which was Bill Jolitz'. { Rest of the irrelevant description deleted } BTW - OpenBSD has a 'core' team, (not everyone has commit priviledges and someone has to decide who gets commit privs.). The folks who run the mirror site and Theo's ownership of the machine which 'owns' the code puts him in a position of leadership, both technically and 'politically'. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 3 15:46:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01144 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01138; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199609032246.PAA01138@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Cc: darrend@novell.com, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199609032201.PAA05164@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Sep 3, 96 03:01:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > Ed Lane described this process as what he called "AI", or "Artificial > Importance" -- useless limitations on process output caused by useless > limitations on process complexity. Terry, thank you now i finally understand the role of management. ;) "useless limitations on process output": translation: they wont let you do the work that is needed "caused by useless limitations on process complexity" translation: because they dont understand what what needs to be done! ha ha, only serious. jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 3 19:08:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA15432 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA15427 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA04252 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:06:59 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA03938; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609040200.TAA03938@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Nate Williams Cc: Terry Lambert , darrend@novell.com (Darren Davis), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Sep 1996 16:38:55 MDT." <199609032238.QAA27527@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 19:00:38 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I have to take responsibility for the organization template copied >> from the "FreeBSD + patchkit" days. > >You're taking too much credit for something you had no part in. FreeBSD >came about because of the technical problems of the patchkit (which were >great and many), but the non-technical organization you had nothing to >do with, positive or negative. I think it would be more accurate to say that "386BSD Interim 0.1.5" came about because of technical problems with the patchkit. FreeBSD came about because Bill pulled his support for "Interim 0.1.5" - claiming that 2/3rds of the patches were bogus and he didn't want the "386BSD" name muddied. I don't tend to agree with Terry's analysis, either. If anything, OpenBSD suffers even more than other *BSD's in it's elitest attitude. Just start asking about all the great "security" fixes and you'll find that it's not as "Open" as the name implies. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 3 23:21:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA25392 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA25387 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA03942; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:50:49 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199609040620.PAA03942@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Latest Current build failure To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:50:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <697.841811654@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Sep 3, 96 09:34:14 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > command-line parsing/dispatching code thrown in would be a good start, > though some might also argue that this is already being done by a > library called libtcl.a. :-) cvsup> set options(paths:repository) "/local2/cvs" cvsup> set options(names:server) cvsup.freebsd.org cvsup> set slave [interp create] cvsup> $slave eval cvsup fetch cvsup> package require tetris cvsup> tetris ... > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 10:36:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22666 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA22570 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA06713; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:26:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199609041726.KAA06713@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:26:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199609040200.TAA03938@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Sep 3, 96 07:00:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't tend to agree with Terry's analysis, either. If anything, OpenBSD > suffers even more than other *BSD's in it's elitest attitude. Just start > asking about all the great "security" fixes and you'll find that it's not > as "Open" as the name implies. I think that OpenBSD will inevitably fall to the state of lowest potential energy below it's current state, when it achieves too many people to manage with its current model. This low potential energy state is "the core team model". This is not intended to be offensive to the NetBSD/FreeBSD camps, who happen to depend on the model (at present). It is merely an ovservation that OpenBSD has the leisure of taking the polotocal stance it does only because it has not hit a structural bifurcation point -- yet. Their only chance to avoid becoming what they despise is to have such extreme moral compunctions about it that they achieve a tunneling energy; this could lead them down the hill to chaos just as easily as up. Down the hill is, in fact, a state of lower potential energy. When you take a steamroller and flatten out a potential well, you remove the brakes... in both directions. As to elitism in OpenBSD inre: the security fixes, I really think that depends on how you ask, doesn't it? One method is to confront the people involved (who happen to be involved there instead FreeBSD or NetBSD because they believe they are granted a "moral high ground" by their involvement with OpenBSD). Because of the way humans work, this is unlikely to be a successful strategy; this should be obvious to even the most casual observer of human nature, and shouldn't take an observation from someone who mathematically models group dynamics to become readily apparent. An alternate approach to the problem of finding out what the security fixes are would be to ask their CVS log. This is permitted, encouraged, and has the side effect of removing the moral coloring from the answer you receive. Pretty obvious which approach has a better chance of being effective. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 12:10:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27365 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27360 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA07109; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:05:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199609041905.MAA07109@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:05:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, dg@root.com, nate@mt.sri.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199609041735.LAA00851@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Sep 4, 96 11:35:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > An alternate approach to the problem of finding out what the security > > fixes are would be to ask their CVS log. This is permitted, encouraged, > > and has the side effect of removing the moral coloring from the answer > > you receive. > > And also it a lot more (completely un-necessary) work. > > Theo: > I fixed a security bug in OpenBSD that exists in every other OS known to > man, but I'm not telling you where in the system it is. But, it's a > baaaad bug, and you should be very scared of it. > > Response: > > # cvs co src > # find . -type f -print | xargs cvs log > > Look through *every* single file in the system looking for 'security' > fix, which may/may not be logged as such to deter any casual observer > from seeing the bug, thus 'disclosing' the bug and making other systems > vulnerable because of OpenBSD's 'partial disclosure' policy. >From his perspective, translating the information from the useful form it is in into a textual description that can be exported to NetBSD/FreeBSD is "a lot more (completely un-necessary) work". I have found that it requires convincing a core team member to get a change into the tree. It is irrelevent to the process that the code is good code before the core team member understands it, or that the core team members understanding somehow ennobles the previously savage code. The point is that it is wrong to fault Theo for not taking on the task of putting it in a form suitable to pass the NetBSD and FreeBSD "not invented here" rejection filters. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 13:34:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01189 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01166 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA07250; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:26:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199609042026.NAA07250@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:26:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, dg@root.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199609041910.NAA01549@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Sep 4, 96 01:10:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Theo's current statement > I've fixed a *huge* security bug, but I'm not telling you what it is: > > vs. > I've fixed a *huge* security bug in rdist. > Or > I've fixed a *huge* security hole in the kernel involving the setuid() > function call. > > Remember what you've fixed in *NOT* that hard, and since he went to the > trouble to check if FreeBSD had the fix, it's evidently more of a 'nyah, > nyah, I've got a fix that you don't' attitude then one of "I'm > overworked and don't remember." Actually, I think it's more like "I've pulled in all the FreeBSD and NetBSD fixes, and this wasn't one of them". I think this is different than the childish attitude you ascribe him; you have to admit that you are paraphrasing. The problem (for him) with making specific statements (like your "rdist" and "setuid" examples) is that he then has to defend his position that a fix was necessary... in other words, he has to explain his actions to an outside authority who won't give him credit for knowing what he is doing. I've been involved in these exchanges, where it gets down to "show your credentials" or "prove that this modes us in the direction we want to go", or, more frequently, "prove that the direction this moves us in is the direction we want to go". It is much easier to simply note the fix, note that he's alreay received the most benefit he can get from it by integrating it into his tree, and move on. Again, Theo is not at fault for providing incomplete information, since he was not obligated to provide *any* information. Neither is he obligated to defend himself over the question of his technical ability. And yes, I'm well aware that Theo was one of the two main NetBSD personalities whose conflicts caused the merge talks to fall through; then, as now, it's his technical ability, not his merits as a human being, which are in question. It's very easy to see the perspective he's coming from when he puts out his "security bugs" statements; the problem is that he's not being taken at face value because of all the historical baggage. That's an observer problem -- you, as an observer, can either let your history with Theo own you, or you can own your history, and utilize his statements for what value they have to you, without the emotional loading that comes from past interactions. You don't *have* to like him to benefit from his work. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 14:05:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02647 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA02641 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0) id AA12246; Wed, 4 Sep 96 15:00:43 MDT Message-Id: <9609042100.AA12246@theos.com> To: nate@mt.sri.com Cc: terry@lambert.org, dg@root.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:00:38 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > An alternate approach to the problem of finding out what the security > > > fixes are would be to ask their CVS log. This is permitted, encouraged, > > > and has the side effect of removing the moral coloring from the answer > > > you receive. This is doable. The logs are 4MB now. The security stuff is well hidden between changes to everything else in the tree. Just because a message says "buf oflow" doesn't mean we determined it to be exploitable. Some of the patches are going to be difficult to merge. Diffing files is not going to help you much because a lot of those files were changes in NetBSD, some pieces from 386bsd, net2, 4.4lite, 4.4lite2.... Of course, the NetBSD logs are not available. This is going to be very painful. I suggest you just wholesale steal the whole OpenBSD userland. Hahaha. I'll laugh at myself because I know you won't laugh at my little joke. I don't know what solution I have for you. Sounds like the same problem I have regarding VM fixes from Dyson. The volume of code involved is just too heavy. > > Theo: > > I fixed a security bug in OpenBSD that exists in every other OS known to > > man, but I'm not telling you where in the system it is. But, it's a > > baaaad bug, and you should be very scared of it. Yup. You should be afraid. Don't give me an account on your cvs repository machine. > > Response: > > > > # cvs co src > > # find . -type f -print | xargs cvs log > > > Look through *every* single file in the system looking for 'security' > > fix, which may/may not be logged as such to deter any casual observer > > from seeing the bug, thus 'disclosing' the bug and making other systems > > vulnerable because of OpenBSD's 'partial disclosure' policy. Now I've seen enough of this kind of talk. I've explained numerous times before why OpenBSD does not make this information available. Let's compare situations with the person who typed this, ie., Nate: 1) I have a SunOS machine. It's patched all over the place. But I know there are holes in it. I am not going to tell you what those holes are. 2) Nate, you are essentially behind a firewall: [cvs net 124 ]# telnet !$ telnet sneezy.sri.com Trying 128.18.40.6... Connected to sneezy.sri.com. Escape character is '^]'. Connection closed by foreign host. [cvs net 125 ]# rpcinfo -p !$ rpcinfo -p sneezy.sri.com ^C (timed out) [cvs net 126 ]# showmount -e !$ showmount -e sneezy.sri.com ^C (timed out) Now why would I want to go releasing bugs that are in my system? Perhaps I should go releasing bugs that are in YOUR system. Ok, I know a bug in your system. Judging by the version, your sendmail has at least one exploitable remote root hole. Shall I continue? Who knows, Nate, perhaps I am not making this up. (Be a shame if you goaded me too far... and I asked someone else to demonstrate...) We gain nothing from telling the world what these holes are. Not that you guys ever really asked nicely, or made it easy for me to help. Hmm.. not saying I would, either. I'm very busy. We are preparing for a release. > >From his perspective, translating the information from the useful form > it is in into a textual description that can be exported to NetBSD/FreeBSD > is "a lot more (completely un-necessary) work". Damn rights. "John, can you write us up a set of detailed instructions for how to drop your VM system into our kernel?" I think John has better things to do; so do I. Early along our quest for greater security (which was spawned by an attack on my machine by someone who modified a file only the NetBSD people would have wanted modified) I did report a security problem to the FreeBSD security maintainer, about a hole to look at, I did not get a reply. Meanwhile, while merging the FreeBSD userland changes into OpenBSD I found 4 security fixes that I had not heard of before. At least one of those was done while OpenBSD was already making waves in the security community. We did not get mail about it. FreeBSD can expect the same. Now onto Terry's comments: > I have found that it requires convincing a core team member to get a > change into the tree. I hear this about all the source trees. I believe less in this model of development. Sometimes I cannot judge the code coming in. I hate that, and the developers do too. So we import things quite a bit quicker now, when it's not been completely looked over. The non-core (BTW, know who first used the word `core'?) people love the process. They feel involved. They don't feel excluded by some private core thang. > The point is that it is wrong to fault Theo for not taking on the task > of putting it in a form suitable to pass the NetBSD and FreeBSD "not > invented here" rejection filters. Terry, you couldn't be closer to the truth. Both FreeBSD and NetBSD have gone over the top to annoy me, what with NetBSD core doing their thing, and with Jordan sending private mail to one of my developers saying I should be seeing he hopes I'm seeing psychiatric help. Why would I feel any remorse hearing about your problems with incorporating my code now... So a few reasons, in no particular order: 1) I don't believe in full disclosure. 2) I have been broken into. I cannot fix that machine 100% (not yet). 3) I work on OpenBSD, not on FreeBSD. 4) Some problme reports have come from people who don't believe in disclosure of the problem, only in seeing a fix. 5) Instead of asking nicely, people have slagged me. Instead of looking at the tree changes, they have whined about my attitude. BTW, I first got into security with a fellow who worked at sri.com; we found & fixed a named/YP bug in SunOS, which came out in the next release. Now... armed with source... now we find out how bad it really is. It's worse! BTW, Terry, nasty modstat bug :) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 14:16:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03132 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03119 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02488; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:16:29 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:16:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609042116.PAA02488@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Theo de Raadt Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org, dg@root.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: <9609042100.AA12246@theos.com> References: <9609042100.AA12246@theos.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 2) Nate, you are essentially behind a firewall: Darn right. And, you aren't connecting to my box, but SRI-Menlo Park. I don't live in Menlo Park, but in Montana. :) > [cvs net 124 ]# telnet !$ > telnet sneezy.sri.com > Trying 128.18.40.6... > Connected to sneezy.sri.com. > Escape character is '^]'. > Connection closed by foreign host. > [cvs net 125 ]# rpcinfo -p !$ > rpcinfo -p sneezy.sri.com > ^C (timed out) > [cvs net 126 ]# showmount -e !$ > showmount -e sneezy.sri.com > ^C (timed out) > > Now why would I want to go releasing bugs that are in my system? > Perhaps I should go releasing bugs that are in YOUR system. I'd prefer knowing about everyone knowing about the bugs in my system vs. me not knowing and some others knowing (possibly hackers). Full disclosure of the bugs is *ALWAYS* better than partial disclosure, ie; I know something you don't know. > Ok, I know a bug in your system. Judging by the version, your > sendmail has at least one exploitable remote root hole. Shall I > continue? Sure, go ahead. You don't know my system, and you assume too much. > We gain nothing from telling the world what these holes are. You gain the ability to 'prove' that your system is more secure by statements other than "it's more secure". When Marcus Ranum (formerly of TFS) states his system is secure, I believe him because of his track record. You don't have one positive or negative since OpenBSD has virtually no track record. We have to trust that what you're saying is true, and trust is something that is earned, not implicitly given. You haven't earned my trust. > Not that > you guys ever really asked nicely, or made it easy for me to help. > Hmm.. not saying I would, either. I'm very busy. We are preparing for > a release. All *anyone* has asked (in Usenet and other forms) is that you disclose the security problems. You (and others) took the time to find them, and check to see if they existed in other OS's. That's more work than simply doing: $ mail -s "RDIST is full of holes, check out OpenBSD sources" \ security@FreeBSD.org > Damn rights. "John, can you write us up a set of detailed > instructions for how to drop your VM system into our kernel?" > I think John has better things to do; so do I. Integrating the VM is alot more difficult than sending an email message stating that the VM system is buggy. > Early along our quest for greater security (which was spawned by an > attack on my machine by someone who modified a file only the NetBSD > people would have wanted modified) I did report a security problem to > the FreeBSD security maintainer, about a hole to look at, I did not > get a reply. Stuff happens, does that mean condemning the process from that point on? > Meanwhile, while merging the FreeBSD userland changes into OpenBSD I > found 4 security fixes that I had not heard of before. At least one > of those was done while OpenBSD was already making waves in the > security community. We did not get mail about it. FreeBSD can expect > the same. Paul Traina has only recently taken on the organization of the security of FreBSD. Our previous security dude went Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 14:40:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04095 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04090 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0) id AA12381; Wed, 4 Sep 96 15:36:27 MDT Message-Id: <9609042136.AA12381@theos.com> To: Nate Williams Cc: Theo de Raadt , terry@lambert.org, dg@root.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:16:29 MDT." <199609042116.PAA02488@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:36:25 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You gain the ability to 'prove' that your system is more secure by > statements other than "it's more secure". When Marcus Ranum (formerly > of TFS) states his system is secure, I believe him because of his track > record. You don't have one positive or negative since OpenBSD has > virtually no track record. We have to trust that what you're saying is > true, and trust is something that is earned, not implicitly given. You > haven't earned my trust. Right. I haven't earned your trust. Ignore my fixes, they are not worthwhile. > All *anyone* has asked (in Usenet and other forms) is that you disclose > the security problems. You (and others) took the time to find them, and > check to see if they existed in other OS's. Of course they exist in other systems. Haven't you noticed how much code from 4.2BSD was used in other systems? All the vendor systems contain a userland that is basically *ALL* BSD code (except Solaris, which adds a whole bunch more new bugs). In most of the vendor systems, they had so much trouble porting the kernel to new machines they didn't fix their userland; they just made it different. In fact, from my new-found perspective SunOS is looking like a BSD 4.3 with the security bugs fixed. So, now, remember the XXXXXX trace file bug FreeBSD recently fixed by replacing it with a version from XXXX at XXX? There you go: Hey everyone, most of you are running a XXXXX that can be used to append garbage to any file in your system. As many attacks as you want, just keep enabling and disabling it with a different file. Nate, there's your damn full disclosure. You feel better now, knowing that 40 people just got fried? Now, having vented a bit, I won't do that again. And I won't list any of the other holes. The unexpecting system admins and users don't deserve the pain you think they should for not updating to the latest release. Having said that, the above XXXXXX bug was found by us 7 years ago. I reported it to CSRG. Yet 4.4 shipped had it. Pretty amazing, isn't it? Sorry, but you don't have to be (to follow your appeal to authority) a Marcus Ranum to find and fix holes like that. Even a Theo can fix stuff like that. > Integrating the VM is alot more difficult than sending an email message > stating that the VM system is buggy. Integrating the security fixes is alot more difficult than sending an email message stating that the security system is buggy. > > Early along our quest for greater security (which was spawned by an > > attack on my machine by someone who modified a file only the NetBSD > > people would have wanted modified) I did report a security problem to > > the FreeBSD security maintainer, about a hole to look at, I did not > > get a reply. > > Stuff happens, does that mean condemning the process from that point on? When all things are added up, yeah, perhaps I should. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 14:50:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04434 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04429 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 14:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0) id AA12427; Wed, 4 Sep 96 15:46:08 MDT Message-Id: <9609042146.AA12427@theos.com> To: Nate Williams Cc: terry@lambert.org, dg@root.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:36:25 MDT." <9609042136.AA12381@theos.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:46:06 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I want to note that a lot of what I am saying is simply to have fun. We are just ghosts to each other, so why not just laugh. Traditionally there has been no cooperation between *BSD groups; just two states: - ignoring each other between - slagging each other for being either incompetent coders, or not providing code on a platter It's weird how it keeps coming back to this. Who I am to try to change things, to be the one to help change things. I'm just some outcast, you know :) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 15:07:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05188 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05183 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0) id AA12516; Wed, 4 Sep 96 16:07:28 MDT Message-Id: <9609042207.AA12516@theos.com> To: Nate Williams Cc: Theo de Raadt , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:46:50 MDT." <199609042146.PAA02647@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:07:26 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > So, now, remember the XXXXXX trace file bug FreeBSD recently fixed by >[...] > > I doubt even *one* person will get fried for that. Well, people have been fried by it. Nate, you are quite simply wrong. Your technical expertise does not land in security. Nate, you poopoo me in a comparison against Markus Ranum, then in the next report you say a security hole that can append log files to any file in the entire filesystem is ok. Terry had a very good point; I will use this as a reminder not to send bug reports to people like Nate, who will act as judge in areas they know shit all nothing about. > I didn't state I wanted your fix, just a pointer to where they might be so > *I* (or others) could go look them up. Nate, they are in the OpenBSD source tree. Go ahead, anoncvs is fun. > If you're worried about disclosure send them to CERT. No, I am more worried about proper use of my time. > But, if *YOU* can find them then so can > joe hacker, and he's going to get into the BSD systems that are so > insecure. Yup. FreeBSD and NetBSD boxes. Of course, any user can crash the OpenBSD or NetBSD vm system. > By disclosing them you at least put him on the same footing > as the hackers. If it means he has to disable potentially helpful code, > then so be it. It's better than losing years worth of work. Nate, if you don't want to lose your years worth of work you might consider putting your machines behind an OpenBSD firewall. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 15:23:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06069 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA06064 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com by theos.com (4.1/tdr1.0) id AA12627; Wed, 4 Sep 96 16:22:54 MDT Message-Id: <9609042222.AA12627@theos.com> To: Nate Williams Cc: Theo de Raadt , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:15:38 MDT." <199609042215.QAA02884@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:22:52 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [nate sent me something which i am not including here. i don't want private mail from him, so i told him simply that. this is everything he said in reply] > > don't send me private mail. > > Don't threaten me. No, Nate, I mean it, don't send me private mail. Especially garbage like that. I really don't care whether you trust OpenBSD or not. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 17:28:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA11021 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11016 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA07677; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:23:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199609050023.RAA07677@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply To: deraadt@theos.com (Theo de Raadt) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:23:39 -0700 (MST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org, dg@root.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9609042100.AA12246@theos.com> from "Theo de Raadt" at Sep 4, 96 03:00:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > BTW, Terry, nasty modstat bug :) > The LKM package was never released as anything but beta. The modstat were added by CGD to allow non-root users to display the loaded modules. In my initial release, the device was accessable to root only, and none of the commands rand suid. Or do you mean the fact that NetBSD didn't strip out the commented-out Sun copyright manual pages from the source files before distributing them? 8-). I wrote the things from the Sun man pages to make them act like the man page said the SunOS 4.1.3_U1 commands operated. The whole LKM package was a rush job for the modular console design that got adulterated, and then was never implemented. Because I rushed the LKM's, I came in the first Monday of June 1994 and found that USL would not let me distribute my shared library code. I expect it set the whole shared library effort back a year or more. Stinking module code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 19:59:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA16270 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA16264 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA05439; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:56:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Theo de Raadt cc: Nate Williams , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:22:52 MDT." <9609042222.AA12627@theos.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:56:50 -0700 Message-ID: <5437.841892210@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Theo, I'll thank you to keep your own crap out of our mailing lists. Just what are you trying to do these days, troll to see how many filters you can get yourself on? It's really of no concern to me, but I'm not particularly pleased to see you start involving these lists in your little petty political soap operas. Knock it off! Any filter which gets added here will be purely at your own instigation, not ours. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 20:47:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA18399 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA18391 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA13412; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:47:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: orion.webspan.net: Host gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Theo de Raadt cc: Nate Williams , chat@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:07:26 MDT." <9609042207.AA12516@theos.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 23:47:04 -0400 Message-ID: <13408.841895224@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > By disclosing them you at least put him on the same footing > > as the hackers. If it means he has to disable potentially helpful code, > > then so be it. It's better than losing years worth of work. > Nate, if you don't want to lose your years worth of work you might > consider putting your machines behind an OpenBSD firewall. I am going to ask nicely: This is now PLAINLY a PERSONAL war between you two. Please TAKE IT OFF THE AIR. If, in the future, you find the need to get into this sort of discussion, hit the `reply' button, write out your massive tirade against mankind and how you are wronged by everyone else, then hit the `Delete' button, after satisfying your need to get it out of your system. Thanks, Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 21:03:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA19312 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA19306 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spyder.inna.net (jamie@spyder.inna.net [206.151.66.4]) by tyger.inna.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA14462; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:01:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Theo de Raadt cc: Nate Williams , terry@lambert.org, dg@root.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: <9609042136.AA12381@theos.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > You gain the ability to 'prove' that your system is more secure by > > statements other than "it's more secure". When Marcus Ranum (formerly > > of TFS) states his system is secure, I believe him because of his track > > record. You don't have one positive or negative since OpenBSD has Lots of Theo rant deleted. > > > the FreeBSD security maintainer, about a hole to look at, I did not > > > get a reply. > > > > Stuff happens, does that mean condemning the process from that point on? > > When all things are added up, yeah, perhaps I should. > Theo, Would you please, just once, not take up your holy avenger? What's the point? Unless you care to offer proof of any claims, they are irrelevant, and less than worthless. If it takes extra effort for you to share your finds, then don't. This continuous taunting is tiresome and immature. Shut up just once in your life. Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 22:38:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA23102 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA23088 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA27488 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:37:06 -0700 Received: from rover.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.7.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id XAA08366; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:36:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609050536.XAA08366@rover.village.org> To: Nate Williams Subject: Re: Weddings (was Re: CTM # -> date) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 04 Sep 1996 23:32:23 MDT Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 23:36:28 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : It's still not too late to back out. ;) Well, actually, it is. We're married and have just celebrated our 1.5th anniversary. The wedding is to keep the families happy. You see we saw a JP so we could buy the house and promised the wedding later. Last year we couldn't afford it, so we had to do it this year or never.... : Anyhow, CONGRATULATIONS, and have a *great* honeymoon! I plan on it. This will be one of the few times that most of the people in my life on a day to day basis won't know where I'm at besides "likely in the country". Warner From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 22:49:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA23537 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA23528 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA09896; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:19:35 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199609050549.PAA09896@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Congrats! To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:19:34 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199609050351.VAA07769@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Sep 4, 96 09:51:39 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > I think it would be easy to implement, but I'm heading off to New > Mexico Friday for my Wedding and won't be back for about two weeks. > > Comments? How about congratulations! Yay! Go enjoy yourself for a while and keep your mind off this mess 8) > Warner -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 23:34:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA25371 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA25361 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from angelica.campus.luth.se by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA09328 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:32:39 -0700 Received: (from smurfen@localhost) by angelica.campus.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08453; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:31:04 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:31:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ola Persson To: Michael Smith Cc: Warner Losh , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Congrats! In-Reply-To: <199609050549.PAA09896@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > > I think it would be easy to implement, but I'm heading off to New > > Mexico Friday for my Wedding and won't be back for about two weeks. > > > > Comments? Congratulations! I used to live in New Mexico, lovely state.... Have a great time.. /Ola Ola Persson Porsogarden 8:81 Phone: +46 (0)920 - 151 21 977 54 Lulea WWW: http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/smurfen SWEDEN --- "The number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected." -- , 2nd Ed., June 1972 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 23:44:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA25946 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA25921 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04528; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:32:23 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:32:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609050532.XAA04528@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Warner Losh Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Weddings (was Re: CTM # -> date) In-Reply-To: <199609050351.VAA07769@rover.village.org> References: <199609050351.VAA07769@rover.village.org> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh writes: > I'm heading off to New Mexico Friday for my Wedding and won't be back > for about two weeks. > > Comments? It's still not too late to back out. ;) Just kidding, just kidding. My wife and I celebrated our 6th anniversary a couple months back, and you couldn't pay me to be single again. We're gonna try the 'parent' thing next. :) Anyhow, CONGRATULATIONS, and have a *great* honeymoon! Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 23:44:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA26048 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA26030 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02647; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:46:50 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:46:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609042146.PAA02647@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Theo de Raadt Cc: Nate Williams , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: <9609042136.AA12381@theos.com> References: <199609042116.PAA02488@rocky.mt.sri.com> <9609042136.AA12381@theos.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ...I haven't earned your trust. Ignore my fixes, they are not > worthwhile. Cool, can I add this to my .signature? "Ignore my fixes, they are not worthwhile." - deraaadt@theos.com I've been meaning to update it. :) > So, now, remember the XXXXXX trace file bug FreeBSD recently fixed by > replacing it with a version from XXXX at XXX? There you go: Hey > everyone, most of you are running a XXXXX that can be used to append > garbage to any file in your system. As many attacks as you want, just > keep enabling and disabling it with a different file. Nate, there's > your damn full disclosure. You feel better now, knowing that 40 > people just got fried? I doubt even *one* person will get fried for that. > > Integrating the VM is alot more difficult than sending an email message > > stating that the VM system is buggy. > > Integrating the security fixes is alot more difficult than sending an > email message stating that the security system is buggy. I didn't state I wanted your fix, just a pointer to where they might be so *I* (or others) could go look them up. If you're worried about disclosure send them to CERT. But, if *YOU* can find them then so can joe hacker, and he's going to get into the BSD systems that are so insecure. By disclosing them you at least put him on the same footing as the hackers. If it means he has to disable potentially helpful code, then so be it. It's better than losing years worth of work. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 23:44:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA26141 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA26117 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01549; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:10:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:10:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609041910.NAA01549@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), dg@root.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: <199609041905.MAA07109@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199609041735.LAA00851@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199609041905.MAA07109@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The point is that it is wrong to fault Theo for not taking on the task > of putting it in a form suitable to pass the NetBSD and FreeBSD "not > invented here" rejection filters. Theo's current statement I've fixed a *huge* security bug, but I'm not telling you what it is: vs. I've fixed a *huge* security bug in rdist. Or I've fixed a *huge* security hole in the kernel involving the setuid() function call. Remember what you've fixed in *NOT* that hard, and since he went to the trouble to check if FreeBSD had the fix, it's evidently more of a 'nyah, nyah, I've got a fix that you don't' attitude then one of "I'm overworked and don't remember." Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 4 23:44:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA26166 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA26140 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA00851; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:35:36 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:35:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609041735.LAA00851@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Terry Lambert Cc: dg@root.com, nate@mt.sri.com, darrend@novell.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-Reply-To: <199609041726.KAA06713@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199609040200.TAA03938@root.com> <199609041726.KAA06713@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As to elitism in OpenBSD inre: the security fixes, I really think that > depends on how you ask, doesn't it? One method is to confront the > people involved (who happen to be involved there instead FreeBSD or > NetBSD because they believe they are granted a "moral high ground" > by their involvement with OpenBSD). Because of the way humans work, > this is unlikely to be a successful strategy; this should be obvious > to even the most casual observer of human nature, and shouldn't take > an observation from someone who mathematically models group dynamics > to become readily apparent. > > > An alternate approach to the problem of finding out what the security > fixes are would be to ask their CVS log. This is permitted, encouraged, > and has the side effect of removing the moral coloring from the answer > you receive. And also it a lot more (completely un-necessary) work. Theo: I fixed a security bug in OpenBSD that exists in every other OS known to man, but I'm not telling you where in the system it is. But, it's a baaaad bug, and you should be very scared of it. Response: # cvs co src # find . -type f -print | xargs cvs log Look through *every* single file in the system looking for 'security' fix, which may/may not be logged as such to deter any casual observer from seeing the bug, thus 'disclosing' the bug and making other systems vulnerable because of OpenBSD's 'partial disclosure' policy. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 00:18:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA27542 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA27536 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05102; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609050716.AAA05102@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Warner Losh cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Weddings (was Re: CTM # -> date) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 23:36:28 MDT." <199609050536.XAA08366@rover.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 00:16:21 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Congrats and have a great time!! Amancio & Bettina From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 00:48:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA29151 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29146 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA02344 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 03:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA02975; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 03:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 03:50:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Latest Current build failure Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In Email, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > 24 hours, emitting an email at the end to know the central cookie > ^^^^let > > collector know the exit status of the build. If a majority of the > > Boy, I've gotta start checking my email more closely for typos... > Fast is nice, but that's too fast! :-) Ecxept for the fact, thuogh, that I bet yuo are one of abuot ten poeple who actuly cuaght that... ;) What typos? ;) -- -- tIM...HOEk The opinions expressed above are mine, and if my employer shares them, that's his hard luck. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 01:12:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA00682 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA00677 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com (LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.theos.com (8.8.Beta.1/8.8.Beta.1) with SMTP id CAA15884; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 02:12:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609050812.CAA15884@zeus.theos.com> X-Authentication-Warning: zeus.theos.com: LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Theo de Raadt , Nate Williams , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:56:50 PDT." <5437.841892210@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 02:12:26 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Theo, I'll thank you to keep your own crap out of our mailing lists. > Just what are you trying to do these days, troll to see how many > filters you can get yourself on? It's really of no concern to me, but > I'm not particularly pleased to see you start involving these lists in > your little petty political soap operas. Knock it off! Any filter > which gets added here will be purely at your own instigation, not > ours. > > Jordan Jordan, I trust you send the same message to your developers, and remind them to not make leading and insulting statements about developers in any other groups. Take the 2x4 out of your eye before talking about my splinter. Especially considering the mail you've sent about myself and a need for psychiatric help. If I am bashed on your lists, I will respond, and there's nothing you could do short of moderating it all. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 04:51:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA07747 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 04:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garion.hq.ferg.com (pm1-01.wmbg.widomaker.com [204.17.220.101]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07725 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 04:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garion.hq.ferg.com (localhost.hq.ferg.com [127.0.0.1]) by garion.hq.ferg.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA10333 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:51:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@garion.hq.ferg.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Theo filter Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Umm the recent drivel from one theo@raatt ( or somsuch .. it fits ) has basically irriatated me rather heavily. How hard would it be to patch majordomo to check a kill file for addresses and not propegate those pieces of mail? We could solve alot of problems that way. Oh and.. Mr. theo basically challenged Mr. jordan saying that there is nothing he could do concerning our mailing lists unless he moderated them.. I believe he is wrong... cron jobs that send /kernel to his address every 5 mins or so would be more than adequate. I am not proposing that we start a war here. But I do want to see this butthead off of our mailing lists. -branson ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 05:43:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA11739 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA11729 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA21171 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:40:47 +0100 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (actually host tees) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:42:19 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) id NAA07177; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:41:27 +0100 To: Branson Matheson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Theo filter References: From: Paul Richards Date: 05 Sep 1996 13:41:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: Branson Matheson's message of Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <57afv5xhft.fsf@elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Branson Matheson writes: > Oh and.. Mr. theo basically challenged Mr. jordan saying that there is > nothing he could do concerning our mailing lists unless he moderated > them.. I believe he is wrong... cron jobs that send /kernel to his > address every 5 mins or so would be more than adequate. I am not > proposing that we start a war here. But I do want to see this butthead > off of our mailing lists. Just ignoring him works far better, if a few of our own team were less knee-jerk in responding to him then he'd have nothing to reply to. Some people here keep feeding the fire for no good reason and that includes sending him private mail. Your response above would fall in that category, what you propose would escalate the problem not improve it. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 05:43:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA11807 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.theos.com (zeus.theos.com [199.185.137.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA11800 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALHOST.theos.com (LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.theos.com (8.8.Beta.1/8.8.Beta.1) with SMTP id GAA16841 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:43:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609051243.GAA16841@zeus.theos.com> X-Authentication-Warning: zeus.theos.com: LOCALHOST.theos.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Nate and friends Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 06:43:31 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate will learn that insulting people who are working to improve *BSD is a bad idea. People who do nothing will not insult people who do lots. No matter how friendly they are with the people running the mailing lists where the insults get flinged. Be warned. You are now in the same boat as NetBSD, for lack of self control of your hot-headed members. Jordan, you are an ASS for saying I should shut up when Nate was insulting me. For that behaviour, you are a complete single sided ASS. Also note, that if FreeBSD incorporates any fix from OpenBSD without giving credit, their mailing lists will get spammed with "You did not give credit" mail. Before you could get away with it a bit; now the lines are drawn. Yes, it is kinda like a war. But really, I urge you not to incorporate anything from OpenBSD, you've already gone and called it shit. Now... censor away, guys. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 05:51:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA12549 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgate.flevel.co.uk (root@fgate.flevel.co.uk [194.6.101.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA12523; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dev@localhost) by fgate.flevel.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA13305; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:52:02 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:52:02 +0100 (BST) From: Developer Reply-To: Developer To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Evaluation copies of FXHTML Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A number of evaluation copies of FXHTML are available from Fourth Level Developments to established web sites running under FreeBSD. Please apply, by emailing dev@flevel.co.uk, with the following information:- Organisation: Address: Server Name/IP Address: Contact Name: Tel Number: If you want more information about FXHTML please look at: http://www.flevel.co.uk/fxhtml/ Thanks for your time. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 05:58:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA13060 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.i1.net (root@mail1.i1.net [205.216.202.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA13052 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.i1.net (cap-200.i1.net [207.76.224.200]) by mail1.i1.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA28256 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:58:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609051258.HAA28256@mail1.i1.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Timothy Brown" To: chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:58:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Theo filter Reply-to: tbrown@i1.net Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Umm the recent drivel from one theo@raatt ( or somsuch .. it fits ) has > basically irriatated me rather heavily. How hard would it be to patch [....] This is all well and good, but you're acting similar to the way he's acting when you call him a "butthead", and most of the other people participating in this thread are acting like little kids anyway. (I'm 17.) Wouldn't it be more beneficial for both communities to take a step back and summarize what might be worth it for inclusion in the NetBSD/FreeBSD trees? It seems to me that, since Theo is importing from Net/FreeBSD, then Net/FreeBSD should import from him, and then the merge between the three BSD clones will grow closer. On that note, has there been any discussion given to forming a committee to determine if this is a Good Idea (tm)? -- Timothy Brown InterNIC: TB1313 Chairman, Internet Service Providers' Consortium PGP Key Available Independent Consultant ph: 314/928.5545 2733 McClay Valley Blvd fax: 314/928.5250 St. Peters, MO 63376 pgr: 314/360.3408 cel: 314/303.2949 www: http://www.i1.net/~tbrown/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 06:33:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA16516 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA16508 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA07083; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:33:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Branson Matheson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Theo filter In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Sep 1996 07:51:50 EDT." Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 06:33:25 -0700 Message-ID: <7081.841930405@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Umm the recent drivel from one theo@raatt ( or somsuch .. it fits ) has > basically irriatated me rather heavily. How hard would it be to patch > majordomo to check a kill file for addresses and not propegate those > pieces of mail? It's already done. I'll have Theo added since threats of the nature he's making are entirely unacceptable, to say nothing of highly ill-advised from a legal standpoint. In the meantime, just filter him locally so that his personal emails to you, should he send any, also go into the bit-bucket. I had taken him out of my procmail filter, a clear mistake which I've now rectified. Of course it's easy to dodge a filter, but the moment you're forced to start posting under an assumed name is the same moment you make the jump to B1FF! speed, and all regard for your postings drops into the range of insignificance. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 06:45:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA17716 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from housing1.stucen.gatech.edu (ken@housing1.stucen.gatech.edu [130.207.52.71]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA17710 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 06:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ken@localhost) by housing1.stucen.gatech.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07985 Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:45:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Merry Message-Id: <199609051345.JAA07985@housing1.stucen.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: Theo filter In-Reply-To: from Branson Matheson at "Sep 5, 96 07:51:50 am" To: branson@widomaker.com (Branson Matheson) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:45:45 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Branson Matheson wrote... > > Umm the recent drivel from one theo@raatt ( or somsuch .. it fits ) has > basically irriatated me rather heavily. How hard would it be to patch > majordomo to check a kill file for addresses and not propegate those > pieces of mail? It probably wouldn't be too hard, in fact I think it may have been done before to majordomo@freebsd.org to block a Brazilian list or something like that. (that -hackers somehow got subscribed to) The question is, is that the right thing to do? (I won't go any further on that one since it's such a sticky topic. :) ) > We could solve alot of problems that way. Not as many as you might think... > Oh and.. Mr. theo basically challenged Mr. jordan saying that there is > nothing he could do concerning our mailing lists unless he moderated > them.. I believe he is wrong... cron jobs that send /kernel to his > address every 5 mins or so would be more than adequate. I am not > proposing that we start a war here. But I do want to see this butthead > off of our mailing lists. Be careful with that, it can easily backfire. In fact, just yesterday I firewalled out a site that had subscribed one of the users here to a large, annoying mailing list without asking. Mail to root, postmaster and list-owner, etc., didn't seem to do anything. I would imagine that quite a bit of mail is backing up there now. :) And similarly, Theo is correct as far as being able to circumvent filters... it wouldn't be too hard to forge headers, use different mail servers, etc., to get around a filter. The above firewalling trick, and filters, only stop people who aren't really determined to get through. Moderation would be the only way to stop something like that. (The addresses of the people on the list would also have to be kept 'secret', so the majordomo 'who' command would have to be disabled for that list, and the sendmail 'expn' command would have to be disabled as well. Otherwise the someone could just grab all the addresses on the list and send mail to those addresses without going through majordomo at all.) The best thing to do is probably just declare a truce, and be done with it. Both parties are probably fully capable of waging net.war against each other, but there wouldn't be much of a point IMO. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@ulc199.residence.gatech.edu Disclaimer: I don't speak for GTRI, GT, or Elvis. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 07:00:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA18774 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.105.122]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA18764 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jsigmon@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA25710; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:01:14 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:01:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeremy Sigmon To: tbrown@i1.net cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Does NetBSD+FreeBSD+OpenBSD = Good Thing(tm) In-Reply-To: <199609051258.HAA28256@mail1.i1.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On that note, has there been any discussion given to forming a committee to > determine if this is a Good Idea (tm)? > I believe that there is some hidden messages immbeded within the *BSD code which cause all who work with it regularly to become very irrational about anything at random. This process when combined with a few (many?) strong personalities, which may or may not need psychiatric help, will cause any rational talks about ideas no matter how much of a Good Thing(tm) they are to break down. I am sure that the committee would find it would be a good thing, but nothing would ever come of it. Sort of sad really.... ====================================================================== Jeremy Sigmon B.S. ChE | Web Developer of the Robert C. Byrd Health | Use Sciences Center of West Virginia University | FreeBSD WWW.HSC.WVU.EDU | Now Graduate Student in Computer Science | Office : 293-1060 | From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 07:14:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA19786 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA19780 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA07262; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:14:34 -0700 (PDT) To: tbrown@i1.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Theo filter In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Sep 1996 07:58:39 -0000." <199609051258.HAA28256@mail1.i1.net> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 07:14:34 -0700 Message-ID: <7259.841932874@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On that note, has there been any discussion given to forming a committee to > determine if this is a Good Idea (tm)? Ye gods. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 08:07:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA22838 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA22832 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id JAA06905; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:04:11 -0600 (MDT) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199609051504.JAA06905@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Theo filter To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:04:10 -0600 (MDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <57afv5xhft.fsf@elsevier.co.uk> from "Paul Richards" at Sep 5, 96 01:41:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards said with respect to Theo: > Just ignoring him works far better, if a few of our own team were less > knee-jerk in responding to him then he'd have nothing to reply > to. Some people here keep feeding the fire for no good reason and that > includes sending him private mail. > > Your response above would fall in that category, what you propose would > escalate the problem not improve it. Good advice in general. Last year, I was publicly berated in the -questions lists for taking a couple of newbies to task for stridently demanding that they be helped regardless of the cost. I was rather displeased since I had done this via private e-mail, something the newbies either didn't recognize or lacked the net.manners to appreciate. Since then, I've implemented a "demanding newbie" filter in the most appropriate place; my own greyware. The entire Theo thread reminded me of nights when the dogs in my neighborhood won't shut up. It was amusing for the first 10 minutes, then I just shut it out. Amazing how well that 'd' key works, isn't it? Perhaps we should *all* apply it a little more, and reserve the 'f' (== flame) key for when it's really needed. Like e-mail with audio attachments of *me singing.* -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 08:11:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23080 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23072 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id JAA08281; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:11:05 -0600 (MDT) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199609051511.JAA08281@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Weddings (was Re: CTM # -> date) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:11:04 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199609050532.XAA04528@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Sep 4, 96 11:32:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate said, with respect to Warner's impending nuptials: > It's still not too late to back out. ;) > > Just kidding, just kidding. My wife and I celebrated our 6th > anniversary a couple months back, and you couldn't pay me to be single > again. We're gonna try the 'parent' thing next. :) Me, too. 4 years on 8/1. Marriage is certainly better than the alternative. Our baby girl was born 4/8, and has changed *me* for the better in a great number of ways. Actually, Nate, she was created during our trip to Montana last summer -- we considered naming her Helena. ;^) We settled in Bailey, following the Anglo motif (parents Wesley and Diane; my wife is a Windsor on her mothers side). > Anyhow, CONGRATULATIONS, and have a *great* honeymoon! Ditto. Enjoy the Land of Enchantment, Warner. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 08:14:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23383 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23377 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05745; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:13:13 GMT Message-Id: <199609051513.PAA05745@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA033936380; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:13:00 -0600 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:13:00 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: smurfen@angelica.campus.luth.se Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, imp@village.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: (message from Ola Persson on Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:31:01 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: Congrats! Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Ola" == Ola Persson writes: Ola> Congratulations! I used to live in New Mexico, lovely Ola> state.... Actually, so did Warner (and I). And I'm glad to be out of Socorro. --k From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 10:09:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02333 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from threadway.teeny.org (threadway.teeny.org [205.231.244.157]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02325 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.teeny.org [127.0.0.1]) by threadway.teeny.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA15068; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609051709.KAA15068@threadway.teeny.org> To: tbrown@i1.net cc: chat@freebsd.org, deraadt@theos.com Subject: Re: Theo filter In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Sep 1996 07:58:39 -0000." <199609051258.HAA28256@mail1.i1.net> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:09:02 -0700 From: Jason Downs Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199609051258.HAA28256@mail1.i1.net>, "Timothy Brown" writes: >Wouldn't it be more beneficial for both communities to take a step back and >summarize what might be worth it for inclusion in the NetBSD/FreeBSD trees? >It seems to me that, since Theo is importing from Net/FreeBSD, then >Net/FreeBSD should import from him, and then the merge between the three BSD >clones will grow closer. That would be the ideal situation, if nothing else. If people wouldn't piss on Theo, he wouldn't piss back, you know? -- Jason Downs (503) 256-8535 -/- (503) 952-3749 downsj@teeny.org --> teeny.org: Free Software for a Free Internet <-- http://www.teeny.org/ OpenBSD: The BSD with a soul. http://www.openbsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 5 10:44:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05379 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05373 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (scanner@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA04339; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:43:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Scanner To: tbrown@i1.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Theo filter In-Reply-To: <199609051258.HAA28256@mail1.i1.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Timothy Brown wrote: > Wouldn't it be more beneficial for both communities to take a step back and > summarize what might be worth it for inclusion in the NetBSD/FreeBSD trees? > It seems to me that, since Theo is importing from Net/FreeBSD, then > Net/FreeBSD should import from him, and then the merge between the three BSD > clones will grow closer. Just a hint but I can tell you that this will NEVER happen unless GOD himself comes down and merges them himself. In any event, All this arguing and public trashing is hurting *BSD. It only damages no one wins. So everyone go get a beer or get laid but stop this public flamefest. And terry this is all your fault :) (im joking terry dont get mad) Chris -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.5 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 6 07:11:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA07132 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA07125 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06002 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 10:11:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: remote unix shell (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've heard of people looking for specific features provided by an ISP, but this one has me feeling a little suspicious... ;-) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 00:36:08 -0400 From: Figaro To: support@ican.net Subject: remote unix shell Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Resent-From: Mark Salerno Resent-To: taob@io.org Dear Internex Online... As i am sitting behind a firewall i should be pleased to buy a remote unix account, but before buying i need to know if you run NIS aka. yellow pages so that i can transfer yp maps from other remote machines? Please reply asap to: ia96127@dec51.tietgen.dk or Figaro@bns.dk From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 6 11:20:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17816 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17810 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA26528 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:20:47 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA13444 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:20:47 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id TAA05168 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:57:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199609061757.TAA05168@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux 96 (my impressions) - Reply To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:57:12 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199609050812.CAA15884@zeus.theos.com> from Theo de Raadt at "Sep 5, 96 02:12:26 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Theo de Raadt wrote: > If I am bashed on your lists, I will respond, > and there's nothing you could do short of moderating it all. We could also ignore you. :-/ -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 6 18:36:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA15467 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15462 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA20864; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:36:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: orion.webspan.net: Host gpalmer@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Theo de Raadt cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Nate and friends In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Sep 1996 06:43:31 MDT." <199609051243.GAA16841@zeus.theos.com> Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 21:36:08 -0400 Message-ID: <20857.842060168@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Theo de Raadt wrote in message ID <199609051243.GAA16841@zeus.theos.com>: > Nate will learn that insulting people who are working to improve *BSD > is a bad idea. [ snip ] > Be warned. You are now in the same boat as NetBSD, for lack of self > control of your hot-headed members. Jordan, you are an ASS for saying > I should shut up when Nate was insulting me. For that behaviour, you > are a complete single sided ASS. Pot calling the kettle black, perhaps? Seems that there is at least one other name to be added to this list of people who are insulting others... Gary From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 6 21:12:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01207 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.tioga.com (root@falcon.tioga.com [205.146.65.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA01159; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tbalfe@localhost) by falcon.tioga.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA01827; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 00:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 00:11:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas J Balfe To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD graphics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I got bored from this storm and being stuck inside tonight, so I made some graphics if anyone wants them. ftp://riffraff.tioga.net/pub/graphics ======================================================================== Thomas J Balfe tbalfe@tioga.com President http://www.tioga.com/ Tioga Communications, Inc 814-861-2100 ======================================================================== "Humanity has been compared...to a sleeper who handles matches in his sleep and wakes to find himself in flames." - H.G. Wells The World Set Free 1914 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 6 22:12:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA05696 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foo.netvoyage.net ([204.212.59.91]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA05691 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (bkogawa@localhost) by foo.netvoyage.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA10164 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:16:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: foo.netvoyage.net: bkogawa owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:16:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" X-Sender: bkogawa@foo.netvoyage.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Who was writing dedicated POP server software? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A few months back, I discovered that most POP3 servers copy the mailbox over and over if "leave mail on server" is checked on the client side. I ended up talking to someone who was writing some dedicated POP3 server software, which did not copy over the mailboxes when it updated the mailbox (it stored mail like a news server -- one message per file). If anyone remembers this bit of conversation, I was wondering if you had an update on the status of the software, since I have some time to fiddle with this sort of stuff. Thanks. bryan bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/