From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 27 21:58:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01698 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA01677 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca (root@cicerone.uunet.ca [142.77.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id SAA22793 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:10:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from why.whine.com ([205.150.249.1]) by mail.uunet.ca with ESMTP id <115319-14080>; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 17:08:42 -0500 Received: from why (andrew@why [205.150.249.1]) by why.whine.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA08136 for ; Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:07:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:07:30 -0500 From: Andrew Herdman X-Sender: andrew@why To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: strange ncr problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just a question about the ncr driver in the 2.2-960801-SNAP. I don't have much access to the machine but the following happens some times at bootup...... ignore the config screen..... Thanks for any advice... Andrew % dmesg No lpt0 0xffffffff 7 -1 0x0 0 0 0x0 Yes lpt1 0xffffffff -1 -1 0x0 0 1 0x0 Yes mse0 0x23c 5 -1 0x0 0 0 0x0 Yes Device port irq drq iomem iosize unit flags enabled psm0 0x60 12 -1 0x0 0 0 0x0 No ed0 0x280 5 -1 0xd8000 0 0 0x0 Yes ed1 0x300 10 -1 0xd8000 0 1 0x0 Yes ie0 0x360 7 -1 0xd0000 0 0 0x0 Yes ep0 0x300 10 -1 0x0 0 0 0x0 Yes fe0 0x300 -1 -1 0x0 0 0 0x0 Yes ix0 0x300 10 -1 0xd0000 32768 0 0x0 Yes le0 0x300 5 -1 0xd0000 0 0 0x0 Yes lnc0 0x280 10 0 0x0 0 0 0x0 Yes ze0 0x300 5 -1 0xd8000 0 0 0x0 Yes zp0 0x300 10 -1 0xd8000 0 0 0x0 Yes npx0 0xf0 13 -1 0x0 0 0 0x0 Yes apm0 0x0 -1 -1 0x0 0 0 0x0 No config> quit avail memory = 30519296 (29804K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0 rev 3 on pci0:0 chip1 rev 1 on pci0:7:0 pci0:7:1: Intel Corporation, device=0x7010, class=storage (ide) [no driver assigned] vga0 rev 3 on pci0:10 ncr0 rev 1 int a irq 11 on pci0:12 ncr0 waiting for scsi devices to settle (ncr0:2:0): "NEC D3827 0410" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ncr0:2:0): Direct-Access sd0(ncr0:2:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 1033MB (2116800 512 byte sectors) Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 not found at 0x280 ed1 at 0x300-0x31f irq 10 on isa ed1: address 00:c0:a8:4e:33:78, type NE2000 (16 bit) fe0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ed1 at 0x300 sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A sio2: disabled, not probed. sio3: disabled, not probed. lpt0 not found at 0xffffffff lpt1 not found at 0xffffffff mse0 at 0x23c irq 5 on isa psm0: disabled, not probed. fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 on isa wdc0: unit 1 (atapi): , removable, intr, iordis wdc1 not found at 0x170 bt0 not found at 0x330 uha0 not found at 0x330 aha0 not found at 0x330 aic0 not found at 0x340 nca0 not found at 0x1f88 nca1 not found at 0x350 sea0 not found wt0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ed1 at 0x300 mcd0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ed1 at 0x300 matcdc0 not found at 0x230 scd0 not found at 0x230 ie0 not found at 0x360 ep0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ed1 at 0x300 ix0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ed1 at 0x300 le0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ed1 at 0x300 lnc0 not found at 0x280 ze0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ed1 at 0x300 zp0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ed1 at 0x300 npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface apm0: disabled, not probed. changing root device to sd0a spec_getpages: I/O read error vm_fault: pager input (probably hardware) error, PID 30 failure uid 0 on /: out of inodes pid 30 (hostname), uid 0: exited on signal 11 ncr0: SCSI phase error fixup: CCB already dequeued (0xf0d73c00) ncr0: restart (ncr dead ?). sd0(ncr0:2:0): UNIT ATTENTION info?:ffffffff asc:29,0 sd0(ncr0:2:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred , retries:3 sd0(ncr0:2:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. sd0(ncr0:2:0): NOT READY info?:ffffffff asc:4,1 sd0(ncr0:2:0): Logical unit is in process of becoming ready , retries:2 sd0(ncr0:2:0): NOT READY info?:ffffffff asc:4,1 sd0(ncr0:2:0): Logical unit is in process of becoming ready , retries:1 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 28 03:48:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA21443 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 03:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA21408 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 03:47:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous213.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.213]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA19395; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:37:18 +0100 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA03046; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:35:41 +0100 Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 12:35:41 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199610281135.MAA03046@campa.panke.de> To: jack Cc: Nate Williams , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 220 DM == $??? In-Reply-To: References: <199610261755.LAA14915@rocky.mt.sri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk jack@diamond.xtalwind.net writes: >On Sat, 26 Oct 1996, Nate Williams wrote: >> What's the approximate exchange rate for American $$ vs. Deutsch Marks? > Germany Mark 1.5263 Millions german tourists in New York City can't be wrong - the USD is cheap ;-) Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 28 08:08:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA04085 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.hda.com (ip11-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04075 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 08:08:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01505 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:48:50 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199610281548.KAA01505@hda.hda.com> Subject: Return address To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:48:49 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OK, the return address should be fixed. Thanks for the notes. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 28 14:47:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09248 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:47:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09223 for ; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:47:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.2/8.7.5) id PAA19948; Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:46:00 -0700 (MST) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199610282246.PAA19948@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: 220 DM == $??? To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfram Schneider) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:45:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610281135.MAA03046@campa.panke.de> from "Wolfram Schneider" at Oct 28, 96 12:35:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Millions german tourists in New York City can't be wrong - the > USD is cheap ;-) New York, hell -- they're all in Zions National Park! I *wish* they'd stay in NYC; you wouldn't notice the litter they leave behind there; we Americans already left most of *ours* there as well. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 29 10:18:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14479 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA14471 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:18:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous214.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.214]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA26151 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:00:31 +0100 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA04362; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:27:54 +0100 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 18:27:54 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199610291727.SAA04362@campa.panke.de> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: countdown MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Oct 30, Oct 31, Nov 1 hurrah! New shopping law in Germany ;-)) The deadline where shops must closed moved from 18:30 to 20:00 on weekdays. Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 29 10:21:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14736 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA14656 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous214.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.214]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA26183; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:00:55 +0100 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA03439; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:18:03 +0100 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:18:03 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199610291618.RAA03439@campa.panke.de> To: Softweyr LLC Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 220 DM == $??? In-Reply-To: <199610282246.PAA19948@xmission.xmission.com> References: <199610281135.MAA03046@campa.panke.de> <199610282246.PAA19948@xmission.xmission.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Softweyr LLC writes: >> Millions german tourists in New York City can't be wrong - the >> USD is cheap ;-) > >New York, hell -- they're all in Zions National Park! I *wish* they'd >stay in NYC; you wouldn't notice the litter they leave behind there; >we Americans already left most of *ours* there as well. ;^) Expects more tourists from Europe. There is a price war for transatlantic flights, the *official* ticket price fall down from 1000DM to 600DM (400USD) last month. Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 29 10:58:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16296 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16291 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id NAA03907; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:57:48 -0500 (EST) From: John Dyson Message-Id: <199610291857.NAA03907@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: countdown To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfram Schneider) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:57:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610291727.SAA04362@campa.panke.de> from "Wolfram Schneider" at Oct 29, 96 06:27:54 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Regarding laws regulating hours of business: There are many times that I work through the night, and need to stop by a store to pick up supplies, or simply want to shop at night. Many regions in the US have few restrictions as to the hours of store operation. It is really neat to shop at 0300 in the morning (perhaps because I worked too late.) Of course, there are still areas where the "blue laws" still restrict business hours. In fact, here in Indiana, our liquor stores still cannot be open during Sunday (except for the early hours of the morning before closing at 0300.) Now, if only the computer stores were open late at night, and early in the morning. I wouldn't be surpised if there aren't such stores on the west coast though. John From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 29 11:25:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17819 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.PII.COM (pii.com [192.77.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA17809 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from PII.COM by PII.COM (4.1/SMI-4.4) id AA13631; Tue, 29 Oct 96 12:42:18 PPE Received: by smtp with Microsoft Mail id <327659EC@smtp>; Tue, 29 Oct 96 11:24:28 PST From: Robert Clark To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: FW: countdown Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 11:24:00 PST Message-Id: <327659EC@smtp> Encoding: 35 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yeah, I could see copies of OS/2 on the shelf, next to those pine shaped air fresheners, and the overpriced mini bottles of saline solution, down at the corner 7-11. "I'd like a microwave burrito, a couple of skin mags, and a copy of slakware linux..." [RC] ---------- From: owner-freebsd-chat To: wosch Cc: chat Subject: Re: countdown Date: Tuesday, October 29, 1996 1:57PM Regarding laws regulating hours of business: There are many times that I work through the night, and need to stop by a store to pick up supplies, or simply want to shop at night. Many regions in the US have few restrictions as to the hours of store operation. It is really neat to shop at 0300 in the morning (perhaps because I worked too late.) Of course, there are still areas where the "blue laws" still restrict business hours. In fact, here in Indiana, our liquor stores still cannot be open during Sunday (except for the early hours of the morning before closing at 0300.) Now, if only the computer stores were open late at night, and early in the morning. I wouldn't be surpised if there aren't such stores on the west coast though. John From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 29 12:10:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA20410 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA20404 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id PAA04052; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:10:22 -0500 (EST) From: John Dyson Message-Id: <199610292010.PAA04052@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FW: countdown To: ROBERTC@PII.COM (Robert Clark) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:10:22 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <327659EC@smtp> from "Robert Clark" at Oct 29, 96 11:24:00 am Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > "I'd like a microwave burrito, a couple of skin mags, and a copy of slakware > linux..." > I wonder if each of those have anything in common :-). John From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 29 16:01:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11814 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11809 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <35833(10)>; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:02:50 PST Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177480>; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:51:11 -0800 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: Robert Clark cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:24:00 PST." <327659EC@smtp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:51:03 PST From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Oct29.135111pst.177480@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Yeah, I could see copies of OS/2 on the shelf, next to those pine shaped air >fresheners, and the overpriced mini bottles of saline solution, down at the >corner 7-11. Sounds like Fry's Electronics. (Although they have much more electronics than food, and I've never seen microwave burritos. But you can get shampoo, pringles, an answering machine and a hard drive in one trip...) Bill From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 29 19:44:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24809 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:44:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from gptmail.globalpac.com (GPTMAIL.GLOBALPAC.COM [206.170.230.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA24755 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([206.170.230.154]) by gptmail.globalpac.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-13502) with SMTP id AAA211 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:46:45 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:41:50 -0800 (PST) From: bomber@globalpac.com (bomber) X-Sender: bomber@localhost Reply-To: RHS Linux User To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-Reply-To: <327659EC@smtp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Robert Clark wrote: > Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 11:24:00 PST > From: Robert Clark > To: FreeBSD Chat > Subject: FW: countdown > > > Yeah, I could see copies of OS/2 on the shelf, next to those pine shaped air > fresheners, and the overpriced mini bottles of saline solution, down at the > corner 7-11. > > "I'd like a microwave burrito, a couple of skin mags, and a copy of slakware > linux..." it's funny that you should mention that...a local store here in California carries those exact items among others...many customers have been spotted skipping down the aisles... :) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 29 23:36:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12053 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA12046 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 23:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from thomas@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA05050; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:35:16 +0100 From: Thomas Gellekum Message-Id: <199610300735.IAA05050@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: FW: countdown To: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:35:16 +0100 (MET) Cc: ROBERTC@pii.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <96Oct29.135111pst.177480@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> from Bill Fenner at "Oct 29, 96 01:51:03 pm" Organization: Institut f. Hochfrequenztechnik, RWTH Aachen X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Fenner wrote: > food, and I've never seen microwave burritos. But you can get shampoo, > pringles, an answering machine and a hard drive in one trip...) ^^^^^^^^ What's that? tg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 00:41:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17202 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA17184 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 00:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from spirit.ki.net (root@spirit.ki.net [205.150.102.51]) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with ESMTP id DAA22233; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by spirit.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA22901; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:40:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: spirit.ki.net: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:40:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Thomas Gellekum cc: Bill Fenner , ROBERTC@PII.COM, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-Reply-To: <199610300735.IAA05050@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Thomas Gellekum wrote: > Bill Fenner wrote: > > food, and I've never seen microwave burritos. But you can get shampoo, > > pringles, an answering machine and a hard drive in one trip...) > ^^^^^^^^ > > What's that? > specialty potatoe chips...very "dry", as in virtually no grease... the kind of chip that if you open the bottle (weird packaging, but its more or less a 'tube of chips') and start eating them, they are gone before you know it :) Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 03:14:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA04707 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (root@zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA04693 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sister.ludd.luth.se (sister.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.77]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.2) with ESMTP id MAA20614; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:14:29 +0100 Received: from localhost (smurfen@localhost) by sister.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA02555; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:14:28 +0100 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 12:14:28 +0100 (MET) From: Ola Persson To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Thomas Gellekum , Bill Fenner , ROBERTC@PII.COM, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > the kind of chip that if you open the bottle (weird packaging, but its > more or less a 'tube of chips') and start eating them, they are gone before > you know it :) Once you pop, you can't stop :) /Ola influenced by commercials From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 03:23:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA05918 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA05906 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 03:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) with ESMTP id LAA00891 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:20:27 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:22:30 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) with ESMTP id LAA15098; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:22:22 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.2/8.8.0) id LAA21978; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:21:18 GMT To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: POSIX Conformance (Unanswered in "questions" so I forwarded...) References: <199610292306.QAA22160@phaeton.artisoft.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 30 Oct 1996 11:21:16 +0000 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:06:06 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <57iv7sy9xv.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: Redirected to chat. > Note that having access to the NIST/PCTS is not the same as being > certified. Certification still requires an authorized testing laboratory > to run the test, and it only applies to a particular release level: the What happens when you apply patches to a certified OS? Is the certification then void? Do Sun get each patchlevel certified because we run with loads of patches on our systems, does that make them non-certified :-) -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 05:31:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA19200 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from toth.hq.ferg.com (pm1-09.wmbg.widomaker.com [206.161.154.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA19190 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 05:31:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from toth.hq.ferg.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by toth.hq.ferg.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA05288; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:29:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:29:30 -0500 (EST) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@toth.hq.ferg.com To: Ola Persson cc: "Marc G. Fournier" , Thomas Gellekum , Bill Fenner , ROBERTC@PII.COM, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Ola Persson wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > the kind of chip that if you open the bottle (weird packaging, but its > > more or less a 'tube of chips') and start eating them, they are gone before > > you know it :) > > Once you pop, you can't stop :) I didn't know smurfs watched TV... thought they were only in it :-) -branson PS> Gargamel eats Lays greasy potato chips :-) ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 07:02:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA06006 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slc31.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA05987 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id JAA03726; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:01:19 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:01:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610301601.JAA03726@obie.softweyr.com> From: Wes Peters To: Paul Richards CC: chat@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: POSIX Conformance (Unanswered in "questions" so I forwarded...) In-Reply-To: <57iv7sy9xv.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> References: <199610292306.QAA22160@phaeton.artisoft.com> <57iv7sy9xv.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: % Note that having access to the NIST/PCTS is not the same as being % certified. Certification still requires an authorized testing laboratory % to run the test, and it only applies to a particular release level: the Paul Richards writes: > What happens when you apply patches to a certified OS? Is the > certification then void? Do Sun get each patchlevel certified because > we run with loads of patches on our systems, does that make them > non-certified :-) Sure does. Unless, of course, Sun has gotten their system certified with the *exact* set of patches you have applied. Not that Posix certifaction is anything more than a marketing bullet anyhow. Nobody really cares that a system is *really* Posix-compliant, it is simply something that gets written into contracts specified by the US gov't. They require vendors to use Posix-compliant systems, but they *don't* require them to write their software using the Posix APIs, so they're still not portable. In many cases, the Posix interfaces represent a small enough subset of the system functionality that you *cannot* develop any given application using only Posix calls and get any real performance out of it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 07:56:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA17173 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.hda.com (ip49-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA17114; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA04821; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:35:37 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199610301535.KAA04821@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/games/quakeserver - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <199610301347.AAA21483@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Oct 31, 96 00:17:36 am" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:35:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: james@nexis.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, asami@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (redirected to -chat) > James FitzGibbon stands accused of saying: > > > > > 8M is, well, trifling 8) > > > > Them's fighting words. Must find large useless program to port.... > > May I suggest Khoros. Or Ptolemy. Both should keep you busy for a while 8) Ptolemy should work out of the box. I added FreeBSD support. Maybe I'll do a port today: I think I might grab the crown - here are the dist files: -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 9518773 Mar 30 1996 /A/ptolemy/pt-0.6beta.src.tar.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 5894867 Mar 30 1996 /A/ptolemy/pt-0.6beta.other.src.tar.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 2180100 Mar 30 1996 /A/ptolemy/pt-0.6beta.oct.src.ta -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 08:39:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA28996 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [142.77.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA28967 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <21012-16413>; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:38:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:38:54 -0500 From: Cat Okita To: Paul Richards cc: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: POSIX Conformance (Unanswered in "questions" so I forwarded...) In-Reply-To: <57iv7sy9xv.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Paul Richards wrote: > What happens when you apply patches to a certified OS? Is the > certification then void? Do Sun get each patchlevel certified because > we run with loads of patches on our systems, does that make them > non-certified :-) Yup...that's right - your system isn't certified anymore... Check the docs with your patches - they'll tell you. cheers! Cat From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 13:33:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01932 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.hda.com (ip94-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.94]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01919 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:33:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA05179 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:13:37 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199610302113.QAA05179@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/games/quakeserver - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <199610301535.KAA04821@hda.hda.com> from Peter Dufault at "Oct 30, 96 10:35:36 am" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:13:36 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ptolemy should work out of the box. I added FreeBSD support... (In all honesty I didn't. I got it working in ptolemy 0.6beta and merged it into the standard distribution - someone else had done much of the dirty work earlier.) -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 15:02:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA07837 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07827 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id SAA10205; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:02:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:01:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.org To: Joe Greco cc: Mark Crispin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610302213.QAA26662@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... I'd like to post something that Joe sent me, that fully cleared up in *my* mind why 1777 is a *very* bad thing. As this is not a problem under FreeBSD, since we don't set our spools to /var/mail, I do not consider it a breach of security sending it to the list...hopefully no one else feels otherwise :( Oh, and I've moved this to chat, since it isn't really a 'current' issue... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org ------ Give me an account on your system, then remove your mail box, and I will happily demonstrate what a pain in the ass it is when you stop receiving mail because some jackass decides to "touch /var/mail/scrappy" It is very effective :-( The other person CAN NOT even remove the fake because of the sticky bit... Watch this (solaria.jgreco.q0-2) 4:24pm /var/spool/mail 45 > ls -ld . drwxrwxrwt 2 root 1024 Oct 30 16:22 ./ (solaria.jgreco.q0-2) 4:24pm /var/spool/mail 46 > touch egbert (solaria.jgreco.q0-2) 4:24pm /var/spool/mail 47 > Mail -v egbert Subject: Hi Cory! You will never see THIS! EOT (solaria.jgreco.q0-2) 4:24pm /var/spool/mail 48 > mail: /var/spool/mail/egbert: cannot append mail: cannot open dead.letter egbert... Service unavailable Saving message in /usr/u0/jgreco/dead.letter /usr/u0/jgreco/dead.letter... Sent rm egbert (solaria.jgreco.q0-2) 4:24pm /var/spool/mail 49 > How would you like your users to get the following cryptic message returned to their pen pals: > --QAA23973.846714401/solaria.sol.net > > The original message was received at Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:26:41 -0600 > from anacreon.sol.net [206.55.64.116] > > ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- > (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 554 ... Service unavailable when some jerk does: % cd /var/mail; touch `awk -F: '{print $1}' < /etc/passwd ` See the problem yet? :-) :-) I will be SOOOOOO glad to dump SunOS finally. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 15:07:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA08148 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA08142 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:07:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA24160; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:00:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199610302300.QAA24160@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: POSIX Conformance (Unanswered in "questions" so I forwarded...) To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:00:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <57iv7sy9xv.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> from "Paul Richards" at Oct 30, 96 11:21:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Terry Lambert writes: > > Redirected to chat. > > > Note that having access to the NIST/PCTS is not the same as being > > certified. Certification still requires an authorized testing laboratory > > to run the test, and it only applies to a particular release level: the > > What happens when you apply patches to a certified OS? Is the > certification then void? Do Sun get each patchlevel certified because > we run with loads of patches on our systems, does that make them > non-certified :-) Within boundries, the certification is still valid for the base OS -- without the patches. If you make a new release, it must be certified. For FreeBSD, if Jordan were to pursue certification as FreeBSD, Inc., it would apply to the release certified only. The "snapshot" process is effectively a release process for uncertified kernels. Certification costs enough that most companies modify their process to *not* do things like "snapshots" to avoid the decertification: they use patches instead. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 15:42:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09919 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost2.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09913 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:42:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id PAA01059 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:41:55 -0800 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:05:05 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:01:57 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > I'd like to post something that Joe sent me, that fully cleared up > in *my* mind why 1777 is a *very* bad thing. Marc - I said, very specifically, that there are steps that you need to take to secure a public mail spool to avoid denial of service problems. It is only when you fail to follow these steps that you have problems. The most important of these steps are: 1) The mail spool should be on a different filesystem than other files and directories. 2) The sticky bit on the mail spool must be set; 1777, not 777. 3) All users must have a mail file on the mail spool. a) This must be done as a consequence of account creation. b) mail readers must not unlink mail files on the mail spool under any circumstances (only very old mailer readers still do this). c) Users should be encouraged not to empty their mail files completely (this is not an issue with modern software; the pseudo header which maintains UID status will prevent the mail file from being empty). 4) Mail delivery software must validate the integrity of the mail spool: a) mail files must be properly owned. b) mail files must not be hard lunk anywhere c) mail files must not be soft links d) mail files must be in proper format Any failure of any of these validation checks should alert the system manager. Mail to that mailbox should be held in the mail queue and not bounced. 5) System maintenance software should validate the integrity of the mail spool on a periodic basis. 6) Disregard locks that are older than 5 minutes. Report when this happens. Unlink such locks, and report any failure to unlink. 7) [Optional] Check ownership and size of locks. 8) Don't allow cretins to use your system. Ultimately, the more you secure your system from the misbehavior of authorized cretins, the less usable the system is to the other authorized users. Protecting the mail spool is a lazy way out of doing these steps. You have two choices when protecting the mail spool: 1) Require that all programs which access the spool are privileged. The problem with this is that this means that J. Random User can not write or use her own mail program -- she is at the mercy of the system manager. It also means that every mail program is part of the web of trust. This is unacceptable in a security environment. 2) Use system call locking -- flock() or fcntl() The problem with this is that this does not work over NFS. Either there is no locking at all, or you put your trust in the lockd daemon. Lockd does not work. It will seem to work, briefly, until you start having cluster-wide hangs. Nobody has ever gotten lockd to work. The design itself is flawed. The only question with lockd is how long it takes before the first cluster-wide hang. A "robust lockd" is like cold fusion; theoretically possible, but to date everyone who claims to have done it has been proven to have been mistaken. The people who are really concerned about security don't deal with mail reader access to mail spools at all. They don't want to do the system maintenance work of a public mail spool, nor use the unsatisfactory non-solutions of privileged programs or system call locking. These people do one of three things: 1) they deliver to home directories or some other directory owned by the mailbox owner. 2) they put IMAP and/or POP between the mail reader and the mail spool (that is, the mail spool runs on a dedicated machine that can only be accessed via IMAP or POP). 3) they do both. Mail reader access to mail spools is stone knives and bearskin stuff. If you really don't care if you play ball with the other stone knife/bearskin guys, then drop your stone knives and bearskins. Do something that doesn't require mail readers to run with privileges. Do something that doesn't require trust in unreliable and unportable mechanisms. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 15:45:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10068 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost2.cac.washington.edu ([140.142.33.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10063 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost2.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id PAA01164 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:45:37 -0800 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:42:24 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk PS: On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:01:57 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Give me an account on your system, then remove your mail box, and I will > happily demonstrate what a pain in the ass it is when you stop receiving > mail because some jackass decides to "touch /var/mail/scrappy" That technique doesn't work on my system. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 17:24:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA15667 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA15659 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id UAA05566 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:24:03 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199610310124.UAA05566@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Interesting offer to one of my friends re: domain name To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:24:03 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A friend of mine just got approached for the second time, by a company who is interested in his domain name. Is there any advice out on the net (or any personal anecdote) regarding this issue? He might be interested, but it would definitely cost him something for a change... How would one accomplish this transaction? John dyson@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 17:29:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA15905 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:29:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA15900 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:29:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01819; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:28:40 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Crispin cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:05:05 PST." Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:28:40 -0800 Message-ID: <1817.846725320@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 8) Don't allow cretins to use your system. Ultimately, the more you secure Except that ISPs are in the business of delivering service to cretins. It's right in the business plan. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 17:45:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17044 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:45:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17031 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id RAA20794; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:45:22 -0800 Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:35:50 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <1817.846725320@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:28:40 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > 8) Don't allow cretins to use your system. > > Except that ISPs are in the business of delivering service to cretins. > It's right in the business plan. Yup, which is a reason (there are others) why security-conscious ISPs don't use mail spools. As long as you have a mail spool, you still give out some very important privacy information about the user -- a bad guy can learn how much mail some other other has, when it was last written and (depending upon the OS) even when it was last read. Oh, and while you're at it, be sure that you take away setuid/setgid permissions from the mailq program, or at least modify it so that J. Random User only sees the messages she has queued. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 21:48:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA29672 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29660 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id AAA15519; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:48:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:48:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > PS: > > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:01:57 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Give me an account on your system, then remove your mail box, and I will > > happily demonstrate what a pain in the ass it is when you stop receiving > > mail because some jackass decides to "touch /var/mail/scrappy" > > That technique doesn't work on my system. > Curious, but why wouldn't it? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 21:49:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA29714 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:49:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29706 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id VAA29719 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id AAA15496; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:47:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:47:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > 1) The mail spool should be on a different filesystem than other files and > directories. > This wouldn't prevent the DoS used as an example... > 2) The sticky bit on the mail spool must be set; 1777, not 777. > This is the cause of the DoS used as an example... > 3) All users must have a mail file on the mail spool. > a) This must be done as a consequence of account creation. I don't believe any of the Unix variants actually do this in their adduser, do they? > b) mail readers must not unlink mail files on the mail spool under any > circumstances (only very old mailer readers still do this). I use pine/imap exclusively here, so don't know the behavior of other readers... > c) Users should be encouraged not to empty their mail files completely > (this is not an issue with modern software; the pseudo header which > maintains UID status will prevent the mail file from being empty). > Again, see b) > 4) Mail delivery software must validate the integrity of the mail spool: > a) mail files must be properly owned. > b) mail files must not be hard lunk anywhere > c) mail files must not be soft links > d) mail files must be in proper format > Any failure of any of these validation checks should alert the system > manager. Mail to that mailbox should be held in the mail queue and not > bounced. > this would require changes to sendmail for the queuing, no? But, if I remember right, once the mail message is passed over to mail.local, sendmail drops it out of its queue, so mail.local would hvae to pass it back to sendmail...I can see a 'Exceed Max Hops' condition in sendmail rsulting here... > 5) System maintenance software should validate the integrity of the mail spool > on a periodic basis. > periodic basis? once an hour? a day? a week? how much email as the user lost already as a result of the DoS example given? > 6) Disregard locks that are older than 5 minutes. Report when this happens. > Unlink such locks, and report any failure to unlink. > Inapplicable to the example given...I think? > 7) [Optional] Check ownership and size of locks. > And do what? > 8) Don't allow cretins to use your system. Ultimately, the more you secure > your system from the misbehavior of authorized cretins, the less usable the > system is to the other authorized users. > I used to run an ISP with over 7000 users...which cretins would you like me to disallow? > Protecting the mail spool is a lazy way out of doing these steps. You have > two choices when protecting the mail spool: > 1) Require that all programs which access the spool are privileged. > > The problem with this is that this means that J. Random User can > not write or use her own mail program -- she is at the mercy of the > system manager. It also means that every mail program is part of > the web of trust. This is unacceptable in a security environment. > so, you are suggesting that touch/ be modified so as to not permit creating a file in /var/mail? Then again, if /var/mail is 1777, I just have to whip together a quick C program to do the same...*shrug* > 2) Use system call locking -- flock() or fcntl() > > The problem with this is that this does not work over NFS. Either > there is no locking at all, or you put your trust in the lockd > daemon. > And, of course, any decent system administrator knows better then to have a mail spool NFS mounted...that was one of the first things *I* learnt. IMHO, that's what software such as IMAP/Pine are designed to remedy, as with them, I *don't* have to deal with NFS mounts... > The people who are really concerned about security don't deal with mail reader > access to mail spools at all. They don't want to do the system maintenance > work of a public mail spool, nor use the unsatisfactory non-solutions of > privileged programs or system call locking. > Agreed, in a sense...which, again, is why I use IMAP/Pine, as IMAP handles all the mail spool access...and, therefore, doesn't need .lock locking to deal with NFS mounted spool directories... Isn't there a contradiction here stating that NFS locking doesn't work, so we use .lock locking, but then state that for proper security, you should run a server like IMAP on a dedicated mail host? Basically, one hand you are stating that NFS mail spools are bad, but for those system admin that don't believe this, we'll support them by having .lock locking available? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 21:52:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA00179 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:52:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00158 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 21:52:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id AAA15575; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:50:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:50:54 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:28:40 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > 8) Don't allow cretins to use your system. > > > > Except that ISPs are in the business of delivering service to cretins. > > It's right in the business plan. > > Yup, which is a reason (there are others) why security-conscious ISPs don't > use mail spools. > Cool, this one I *have* to hear, since the savings in disk space would be cool... How do you *not* have a mail spool? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 22:44:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA03729 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA03724 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA15438; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA02000; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:43:47 -0500 (EST) To: Bill Fenner cc: Robert Clark , FreeBSD Chat From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:51:03 PST." <96Oct29.135111pst.177480@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:43:47 -0500 Message-ID: <1998.846744227@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Fenner wrote in message ID <96Oct29.135111pst.177480@crevenia.parc.xerox.com>: > Sounds like Fry's Electronics. (Although they have much more electronics tha > n > food, and I've never seen microwave burritos. But you can get shampoo, > pringles, an answering machine and a hard drive in one trip...) Now all we need is to persuade them to open outside the Bay Area of California (somewhere in the NY/NJ area would be fine for my situation right now :-) ) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 22:50:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04040 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (hik@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04032 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id WAA17998; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:50:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:21:51 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:47:02 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > > 1) The mail spool should be on a different filesystem than other files and > > directories. > This wouldn't prevent the DoS used as an example... No, but it closes off certain other forms of DoS attack which are not necessarily obvious. It makes it impossible to hard link outside of the directory. > > 2) The sticky bit on the mail spool must be set; 1777, not 777. > This is the cause of the DoS used as an example... It does, however, prevent bad guys from deleting other folks' mail. > > 3) All users must have a mail file on the mail spool. > > a) This must be done as a consequence of account creation. > I don't believe any of the Unix variants actually do this in > their adduser, do they? Ours does. > > Any failure of any of these validation checks should alert the system > > manager. Mail to that mailbox should be held in the mail queue and not > > bounced. > this would require changes to sendmail for the queuing, no? But, > if I remember right, once the mail message is passed over to mail.local, > sendmail drops it out of its queue, so mail.local would hvae to pass it > back to sendmail...I can see a 'Exceed Max Hops' condition in sendmail > rsulting here... No, the delivery agent returns with EX_TEMPFAIL. > > 5) System maintenance software should validate the integrity of the mail > > spool on a periodic basis. > periodic basis? once an hour? a day? a week? how much email as > the user lost already as a result of the DoS example given? You decide this based upon the hostility of your environment. If you really have a bad environment, you will not use a spool directory at all. > > 6) Disregard locks that are older than 5 minutes. Report when this > > happens. > > Unlink such locks, and report any failure to unlink. > Inapplicable to the example given...I think? No, this is the DoS problem that most people worry about. > > 7) [Optional] Check ownership and size of locks. > And do what? A lock isn't valid if not owned properly or non-empty, therefore scream to the system manager that somebody is playing around. > I used to run an ISP with over 7000 users...which cretins would you > like me to disallow? We run a facility with over 50,000 users. Many of the users don't use a system with a spool directory at all, because a spool directory doesn't scale. But on the systems which have a spool directory, we reduced the DoS problems to the level of noise. > > 1) Require that all programs which access the spool are privileged. > so, you are suggesting that touch/ be > modified so as to not permit creating a file in /var/mail? No, that means making programs which access the spool run setuid/setgid. Some UNIX variants do this. > > 2) Use system call locking -- flock() or fcntl() > > The problem with this is that this does not work over NFS. > And, of course, any decent system administrator knows better then to > have a mail spool NFS mounted For what it's worth, I agree with you; NFS mounting mail spools is a terrible idea, and that is precisely why I invented IMAP 11 years ago. Nevertheless, over half of the sites I support NFS mount their mail spools. So it doesn't matter what your opinion (or mine) of NFS mounting mail spools may be. NFS mounting the mail spool has to be made to work (as best as NFS will permit). > Isn't there a contradiction here stating that NFS locking doesn't > work, so we use .lock locking, but then state that for proper security, you > should run a server like IMAP on a dedicated mail host? Basically, one hand > you are stating that NFS mail spools are bad, but for those system admin > that don't believe this, we'll support them by having .lock locking > available? No contradiction, and yes that is exactly what I'm saying. Thousands of sites are brainwashed by SUN, NFS mount mail spools, and won't change their minds. So we make it work for these guys. But that isn't at all inconsistant with saying that a dedicated mail host is the correct way to go. Anyway, with a dedicated mail host, then you really don't care what form of locking is used as long as the locking works. If the only way in is through IMAP or POP, then none of the DoS tricks work. You could have a completely open mail spool internally just as long as the front door is locked. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 22:52:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04121 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (lampin@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04115 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id WAA18009; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:52:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 22:50:45 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:50:54 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Yup, which is a reason (there are others) why security-conscious ISPs > > don't use mail spools. > > Cool, this one I *have* to hear, since the savings in disk space > would be cool... > > How do you *not* have a mail spool? Deliver to home directories. This is what most of the big sites do already. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 23:05:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04701 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04695 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17751; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA03067; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:04:13 -0500 (EST) To: Thomas Gellekum cc: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner), ROBERTC@PII.COM, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:35:16 +0100." <199610300735.IAA05050@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:04:12 -0500 Message-ID: <3065.846745452@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thomas Gellekum wrote in message ID <199610300735.IAA05050@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de>: > Bill Fenner wrote: > > food, and I've never seen microwave burritos. But you can get shampoo, > > pringles, an answering machine and a hard drive in one trip...) > ^^^^^^^^ > > What's that? ``once you pop, you can't stop''. from the ad. it's a way of packaging crisps (sorry, chips according to the american abuse of the english language) in tubes so that (alledgedly) they don't break and you get nicer crisps (I think they're meant to be made differently too so that they're not as greasy or something. I have no idea). Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 30 23:13:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA05085 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA05076; Wed, 30 Oct 1996 23:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA18557; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:12:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA03325; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:12:56 -0500 (EST) To: James FitzGibbon cc: Michael Smith , asami@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/games/quakeserver - Imported sources In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 1996 08:40:54 EST." Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:12:56 -0500 Message-ID: <3323.846745976@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk James FitzGibbon wrote in message ID : > On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > > 8M is, well, trifling 8) > > Them's fighting words. Must find large useless program to port.... `Solaris' Hang on, that's an OS. Does it count? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 00:15:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA08064 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA08054 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA24049; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 03:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA05673; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 03:14:15 -0500 (EST) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Mark Crispin , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:50:54 EST." Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 03:14:15 -0500 Message-ID: <5671.846749655@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Marc G. Fournier" wrote in message ID : > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > > > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996 17:28:40 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > 8) Don't allow cretins to use your system. > > > > > > Except that ISPs are in the business of delivering service to cretins. > > > It's right in the business plan. > > > > Yup, which is a reason (there are others) why security-conscious ISPs don't > > use mail spools. > > > > Cool, this one I *have* to hear, since the savings in disk space > would be cool... > > How do you *not* have a mail spool? Tell your customers that the NSA outlawed e-mail as a national security risk. Judging by our customers, 99% of them would believe it. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 00:45:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09140 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:45:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09135 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA03292; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:43:44 -0800 (PST) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Mark Crispin , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:47:02 EST." Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 00:43:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3290.846751424@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 3) All users must have a mail file on the mail spool. > > a) This must be done as a consequence of account creation. > > I don't believe any of the Unix variants actually do this in > their adduser, do they? I don't think that was quite the point. Mark's simply saying that you can prevent a DoS on uncreated user mailboxes by making sure that whatever user adding utility you use (and I'd likely use adduser right about the time that the sun burnt out anyway) creates an empty one. Probably not a bad idea for those people who insist on creating /var/mail 1777. I think it's pretty simple, really, and I don't know why there's all this flammage about it. How you leave /var/mail is an admin decision, and some will wish to leave users the leverage to use their own mailers while others will realize that their users are only likely to shoot their feet off if given that ability, and tighen security further. Either way, it's possible to run a /var/mail *with either mode* if you also take care to attend to the various security ramifications of either decision. I don't see how it's any different from the 1,001 trade-off decisions a UN*X admin already has to make and certainly not worth writing the equivalent of several books about. Jordan P.S. Anyone who uses NFS and remote mailboxes deserves to lose lose lose anyway. It's just a bad idea, and not from any "policy" viewpoint but rather the knowledge that NFS is funkier than 3 reggae bass players in a VW microbus after 6 months on the road without showering. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 01:02:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA09558 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA09552; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA03396; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:01:57 -0800 (PST) To: "Gary Palmer" cc: Thomas Gellekum , fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner), ROBERTC@PII.COM, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:04:12 EST." <3065.846745452@orion.webspan.net> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:01:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3394.846752517@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > don't break and you get nicer crisps (I think they're meant to be made > differently too so that they're not as greasy or something. I have no > idea). They're not cooked. It's an entirely different potato-rendering process. :-) Jordan P.S. And you blokes mapping "french fries" to "chips" isn't an abuse of the english language? OK, so they're not actually French, they're Belgian, but the American who brought the name back was confused since we're famous for not knowing our geography, and he simply thought he was in France. Everyone knows that a chip is either an integrated circuit or a cow product ("don't step in the cow chip there, son.") From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 01:59:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA12340 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA12335 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 01:59:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id EAA25957; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 04:59:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 04:59:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > > > 2) The sticky bit on the mail spool must be set; 1777, not 777. > > This is the cause of the DoS used as an example... > > It does, however, prevent bad guys from deleting other folks' mail. > So does 755... > > > 3) All users must have a mail file on the mail spool. > > > a) This must be done as a consequence of account creation. > > I don't believe any of the Unix variants actually do this in > > their adduser, do they? > > Ours does. > internally modified, or stock? what OS? > > so, you are suggesting that touch/ be > > modified so as to not permit creating a file in /var/mail? > > No, that means making programs which access the spool run setuid/setgid. Some > UNIX variants do this. > a setuid touch command? Sorry, you've still kinda lost me on this, unless you are suggesting that the 'lock' against accessing spool is kernel based? > For what it's worth, I agree with you; NFS mounting mail spools is a terrible > idea, and that is precisely why I invented IMAP 11 years ago. > > Nevertheless, over half of the sites I support NFS mount their mail spools. > So it doesn't matter what your opinion (or mine) of NFS mounting mail spools > may be. NFS mounting the mail spool has to be made to work (as best as NFS > will permit). > Except, by "supporting" it in a piece of software that was designed so that NFS mounts aren't required in no way discourages the use of NFS mounted spool directories... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 04:04:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA24182 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 04:04:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA24170 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 04:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id EAA27989; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 04:04:30 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 03:52:57 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 04:59:27 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > > > > 2) The sticky bit on the mail spool must be set; 1777, not 777. > > > This is the cause of the DoS used as an example... > > It does, however, prevent bad guys from deleting other folks' mail. > So does 755... True but irrelevant. > > > so, you are suggesting that touch/ be > > > modified so as to not permit creating a file in /var/mail? > > No, that means making programs which access the spool run setuid/setgid. > > Some UNIX variants do this. > a setuid touch command? Sorry, you've still kinda lost me on this, > unless you are suggesting that the 'lock' against accessing spool is > kernel based? Sigh. Where does this nonsense about "touch" or editors or kernel mods comes from? Let me try again, nice and simple. /var/mail protected 775 and in group mail. All mail readers protected 2755 and in group mail. This is what some systems do when they don't want to grant world write. More systems do this than use system call locking. Many more. I don't recommend that configuration either. > > NFS mounting the mail spool has to be made to work (as best as NFS > > will permit). > Except, by "supporting" it in a piece of software that was designed > so that NFS mounts aren't required in no way discourages the use of NFS > mounted spool directories... This statement is a non-sequitor. For your information, there are sites which use imapd to access NFS-mounted spools. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 06:57:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA12491 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:57:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bdd.net (bdd.net [207.61.119.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA12482; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 06:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (james@localhost) by bdd.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24075; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:56:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:56:32 -0500 (EST) From: James FitzGibbon To: Gary Palmer cc: Michael Smith , asami@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/games/quakeserver - Imported sources In-Reply-To: <3323.846745976@orion.webspan.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > > Them's fighting words. Must find large useless program to port.... > > `Solaris' > > Hang on, that's an OS. Does it count? You kidding ? With the CERT advisories, we'd double traffic in cvs-committers overnight. -- j. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | James FitzGibbon james@nexis.net | | Integrator, The Nexis Group Voice/Fax : 416 410-0100 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 09:21:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22010 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22002 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 09:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA03250; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:17:38 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:17:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610311717.KAA03250@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Mark Crispin Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I said, very specifically, that there are steps that you need to take to > secure a public mail spool to avoid denial of service problems. > > It is only when you fail to follow these steps that you have problems. > > The most important of these steps are: > > 1) The mail spool should be on a different filesystem than other files and > directories. > > 2) The sticky bit on the mail spool must be set; 1777, not 777. The directory is 1777 as already stated, but if you pre-create mbox's the sticky bit is not really an issue. > 3) All users must have a mail file on the mail spool. > a) This must be done as a consequence of account creation. This assumes an 'adduser' shell, which most commercial unices don't allow you to customize easily or you have to build from hand. (Solaris, SunOS, SCO are known). > b) mail readers must not unlink mail files on the mail spool under any > circumstances (only very old mailer readers still do this). Very modern mail readers do this as well when the box is empty. VM, mush, mailtool, etc... > c) Users should be encouraged not to empty their mail files completely > (this is not an issue with modern software; the pseudo header which > maintains UID status will prevent the mail file from being empty). This is similar as b. By making sure a user doesn't empty the mailbox the reader won't unlink the mail file unless it's empty. > 4) Mail delivery software must validate the integrity of the mail spool: > a) mail files must be properly owned. > b) mail files must not be hard lunk anywhere > c) mail files must not be soft links > d) mail files must be in proper format > Any failure of any of these validation checks should alert the system > manager. Mail to that mailbox should be held in the mail queue and not > bounced. You're now getting outside of the scope of the discussion. Most of these are *NOT* necessary to get email on a system. If you're *paranoid* about email they are good, but if you're paranoid you setup the directory 755 and most of the above issues go away simply because they "can't happen". > 5) System maintenance software should validate the integrity of the mail spool > on a periodic basis. If the mail spool is un-writeable, then the only thing writing to it is the system or individual mail-readers, which are all running as the user. Assuming the mail readers 'Do the Right Thing', then if the mailbox is screwed up it's the users fault. > 8) Don't allow cretins to use your system. Ultimately, the more you > secure your system from the misbehavior of authorized cretins, the > less usable the system is to the other authorized users. Geeze, I guess that none of us would have ever learned anything. Most folks learn by experimenting with things, and what you might consider 'cretin' behavior is just someone trying to figure things out. In any case, this discussion goes *way* beyond getting IMAP working on FreeBSD, and is your solution to 'email problems' on all system. This is *beyond* the scope of what the FreeBSD project can do, and has been already discussed many times *most* of the security problems you point out above are already fixed in a *much* better way than in your proposal, by simply not allowing folks to mess around in /var/mail except on their mboxes. If they screw them up then it's their own fault they lose mail. We're not in the business of protecting people from themselves, as no other OS does that either. > Protecting the mail spool is a lazy way out of doing these steps. It's the *safest* way of doing these steps. You've removed almost all of your steps above. It's called the 'path of least resistance', and most folks who have jobs encourage such behavior. "Let's see, I could do 50 tasks to solve the problem, or I could do 1 task which would remove 45 items from the list. Gee, I think I'll do all 50 instead, since I *love* to do lots more work." > 2) Use system call locking -- flock() or fcntl() > > The problem with this is that this does not work over NFS. Either > there is no locking at all, or you put your trust in the lockd > daemon. *NOTHING* works reliably over NFS. *NOTHING*. Give me an NFS system on *ANY* OS and I can break it by simply getting FreeBSD email, which is about 200-500 messages/day. If you mount your email over NFS, you're going to lose. By it's design NFS doesn't guarantee anything that you can rely on. You can argue all day with me but both my experience and lots of *really* smart folks can prove otherwise. > Lockd does not work. It will seem to work, briefly, until you start having > cluster-wide hangs. Nobody has ever gotten lockd to work. The design itself > is flawed. The only question with lockd is how long it takes before the first > cluster-wide hang. A "robust lockd" is like cold fusion; theoretically > possible, but to date everyone who claims to have done it has been proven to > have been mistaken. Any kind of NFS locking simply won't work. You can't guarantee me that all of the clients and servers will be synchronized. Read the SPEC. It's not possible, although there are features that minimize the race conditions. But elimination of them w/out lockd is impossible (see above discussion of lockd). In any case, this discussion is futile, as logic isn't the reason for this discussion. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 10:01:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24649 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24639 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:01:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03492; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:01:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:01:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610311801.LAA03492@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-Reply-To: <3394.846752517@time.cdrom.com> References: <3065.846745452@orion.webspan.net> <3394.846752517@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > Everyone knows that a chip is either an integrated circuit or a cow > product ("don't step in the cow chip there, son.") Any self-respecting cow-hand doesn't call them 'chips', but we'll ignore what they call them for the cause of being kinder and gentler. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 10:01:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24674 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:01:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24669 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 10:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14331 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:01:10 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id TAA02527 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:00:37 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.2/keltia-uucp-2.9) id SAA14152; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:54:30 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199610311754.SAA14152@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:54:30 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) References: <1817.846725320@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2632 In-Reply-To: ; from Mark Crispin on Oct 30, 1996 17:35:50 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Mark Crispin: > Oh, and while you're at it, be sure that you take away setuid/setgid > permissions from the mailq program, or at least modify it so that J. Random > User only sees the messages she has queued. There is a sendmail.cf option just for that since 8.7 (if not 8.6). O PrivacyOptions=restrictmailq -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #26: Sun Oct 27 19:39:11 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 11:45:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01892 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:45:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (dmt@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01887 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id LAA18793; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:45:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (NX5.67e/UW-NDC/Panda Revision: 2.27.MRC ) id AA07272; Thu, 31 Oct 96 11:45:35 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:45:34 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Reply-To: Mark Crispin To: Nate Williams Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: <199610311717.KAA03250@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > The directory is 1777 as already stated, but if you pre-create mbox's > the sticky bit is not really an issue. You are very mistaken about what the sticky bit does. Read "man 2 chmod". > > 3) All users must have a mail file on the mail spool. > > a) This must be done as a consequence of account creation. > This assumes an 'adduser' shell, which most commercial unices don't > allow you to customize easily or you have to build from hand. (Solaris, > SunOS, SCO are known). Then give this little script to your account creation person and tell them to run it after running adduser. ----------------------------------Cut Here-------------------------------- #!/bin/sh # Called with list of users to create mail files for i in $* do touch /var/mail/$i chown $i /var/mail/$i chmod 600 /var/mail/$i done -----------------------------------Cut Here------------------------------- > > b) mail readers must not unlink mail files on the mail spool under any > > circumstances (only very old mailer readers still do this). > Very modern mail readers do this as well when the box is empty. VM, > mush, mailtool, etc... You and I have a different idea of what constitutes "modern" if you include mailtool. > You're now getting outside of the scope of the discussion. Most of > these are *NOT* necessary to get email on a system. If you're > *paranoid* about email they are good, but if you're paranoid you setup > the directory 755 and most of the above issues go away simply because > they "can't happen". This is a form of false logic called "circular argument". "You don't need X if you do Y, therefore you must do Y." > If the mail spool is un-writeable, then the only thing writing to it is > the system or individual mail-readers, which are all running as the > user. Assuming the mail readers 'Do the Right Thing', then if the > mailbox is screwed up it's the users fault. You miss the point. It has nothing to do with the data in the mail spool, but rather whether or not mailboxes have proper protections, link status, and ownership. Even if you protect your mail spool, you still should undertake periodic security audits in case there was a breach. If you don't, you are asking for trouble. > Geeze, I guess that none of us would have ever learned anything. Most > folks learn by experimenting with things, and what you might consider > 'cretin' behavior is just someone trying to figure things out. It is not "experimentation" to go out of one's way to harass other users with Denial of Service attacks. > This > is *beyond* the scope of what the FreeBSD project can do Then the FreeBSD project should conform to other variants of UNIX. As matters stand now, FreeBSD stands out as an incompatible and non-interoperable variant. > are already fixed in a *much* better way than in your > proposal, by simply not allowing folks to mess around in /var/mail > except on their mboxes. What part of "relying upon setgid/setuid programs is a security risk" don't you understand? What part of "system call locking does not work over NFS" don't you understand? > It's the *safest* way of doing these steps. You've removed almost all > of your steps above. What part of "system call locking does not work over NFS" don't you understand? > It's called the 'path of least resistance', and > most folks who have jobs encourage such behavior. I have a job, bunkie. That job is to specialize in email, email protocols, email storage, email spools, and email locking. I've been doing it for over 20 years. What I see in front of me are sorcerer's apprentices with a modest understanding of the issues, inadequate depth, and a personal computer ("everything is on my PC so I don't have to consider heterogenuity") mindset. I have been trying, very patiently, to enlighten you to the fact that you don't have all the answers, and that your kludge doesn't scale. > "Let's see, I could do 50 tasks to solve the problem, or I could do 1 > task which would remove 45 items from the list. Gee, I think I'll do > all 50 instead, since I *love* to do lots more work." "Let's see, I could do a set of several tasks to solve the problem, or I could do 1 kludge that will sort of work, but will silently fuck over anyone who uses NFS or who brings in a program that doesn't know that it should use system call locking. Gee, I think that I'll do the kludge, since I think that Real Hackers always kludge instead of doing things right. Those who use NFS deserve what they get" > *NOTHING* works reliably over NFS. *NOTHING*. This is the difference between a sorcerer's apprentice and a real hacker. Sorry, you don't make the grade. NFS for mail has been made to work. It requires an understanding of what is and isn't atomic on NFS, and how to interpret NFS error conditions. NFS doesn't have the same filesystem semantics as a UNIX filesystem, so you have to implement for NFS semantics and not UNIX semantics. > You can argue all day with me but both my experience and > lots of *really* smart folks can prove otherwise. You don't have very much experience then and/or you or your friends really aren't as smart as you think you are. Look, I don't like the idea of mail over NFS either. But I don't lie and pretend that it can't be done. I have read the spec. I have spent entirely too much time looking at NFS kernel source code. I know the people who invented NFS. > Any kind of NFS locking simply won't work. Which is why you use .lock files. You can't rely upon O_EXCL, which is why you use the hard link technique that I outlined in another message. -- Mark -- DoD #0105, R90/6 pilot FAX: (206) 842-0758 ICBM: N 47.36'24" W 122.34'08" TOPS-20: A Great Improvement Over Its Successors From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 12:09:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03565 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:09:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03559 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04328; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:05:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:05:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199610312005.NAA04328@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Mark Crispin Cc: Nate Williams , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: References: <199610311717.KAA03250@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk First of all, you initially made the claim that Joe couldn't break into your system, and that your system had /var/mail was chmod 1777, and that the user in question didn't have a mbox. Then, you changed your story to say that /var/mail was 775. Which is the correct story? Unless you remove *every* program on your system which can create files *OR* you patch the kernel to not allow any non-allowed to create files in /var/mail (which means that locks aren't writable and you're effectively setting things to mode 775), you *aren't* solving the problem. > On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > The directory is 1777 as already stated, but if you pre-create mbox's > > the sticky bit is not really an issue. > > You are very mistaken about what the sticky bit does. Read "man 2 chmod". Whoops, sorry. I forgot that w/out the sticky bit you can still remove folks files. > > > 3) All users must have a mail file on the mail spool. > > > a) This must be done as a consequence of account creation. > > This assumes an 'adduser' shell, which most commercial unices don't > > allow you to customize easily or you have to build from hand. (Solaris, > > SunOS, SCO are known). > > Then give this little script to your account creation person and tell them > to run it after running adduser. This seems like a *heck* of alot of work simply because I want to use IMAP, which is the only piece of software that doesn't work with the current setup on my systems. It's less work to fix the IMAP sources, which I'll do and apparently you're not interested in integrating. > > > b) mail readers must not unlink mail files on the mail spool under any > > > circumstances (only very old mailer readers still do this). > > Very modern mail readers do this as well when the box is empty. VM, > > mush, mailtool, etc... > > You and I have a different idea of what constitutes "modern" if you > include mailtool. OK, I was pushing things with mailtool, but it happens to be used alot by folks locally for some strange reason. :) > > You're now getting outside of the scope of the discussion. Most of > > these are *NOT* necessary to get email on a system. If you're > > *paranoid* about email they are good, but if you're paranoid you setup > > the directory 755 and most of the above issues go away simply because > > they "can't happen". > > This is a form of false logic called "circular argument". > "You don't need X if you do Y, therefore you must do Y." You're arguements are the same. You're saying 'You *must* do X to fix Z', and my response was that 'Y already fixes Z, so why do X which involve A,B,C,D,E.... Y is a better solution'. > > This > > is *beyond* the scope of what the FreeBSD project can do > > Then the FreeBSD project should conform to other variants of UNIX. As > matters stand now, FreeBSD stands out as an incompatible and > non-interoperable variant. No, as Marc has already been pointed out FreeBSD is in-line with *many* other unix products, including some commercial versions. > > are already fixed in a *much* better way than in your > > proposal, by simply not allowing folks to mess around in /var/mail > > except on their mboxes. > > What part of "relying upon setgid/setuid programs is a security risk" > don't you understand? Mail deliver programs *have* to be setuid in the solution you propose as well (/var/mail 775). The readers don't though since they don't create files. > What part of "system call locking does not work over NFS" don't you > understand? None, what part of 'LOCKING in *any* form doesn't work over NFS' don't you understand. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. End of story. Trying to make it work with other forms is a waste of your time, because sooner or later it *will* fail. > What I see in front of me are sorcerer's apprentices with a modest > understanding of the issues, inadequate depth, and a personal computer > ("everything is on my PC so I don't have to consider heterogenuity") > mindset. *laugh* So you're the only expert here? "I'm Mark Crispin, and I understand the problem b/c I've been around for 20 years." Well 'Bunkie', I've been doing administering email and NFS for about 12, so does that make me 60% as good as you? *grin* > I have been trying, very patiently, to enlighten you to the fact that you > don't have all the answers, and that your kludge doesn't scale. My 'kludge' works as well as your given the fact that yours doesn't work. You've also proven that you don't listen to facts. #1 - NFS locking doesn't work. You can't make it work, but you can reduce the window of the race by doing special condition code, but the race still exists. So, rather than encouraging folks to *remove* the possibility of corrupted mbox's, you encourage it. #2 - By attempting to make NFS locking work (it doesn't), you open up closed holes that require changes to programs outside of the control of the sys. admin, *plus* it makes for alot more work for doing normal everyone chores. Computers are here to make my job easier, not harder. I can choose to use an easy solution or a hard solution, and I gain nothing by using the hard solution. > > "Let's see, I could do 50 tasks to solve the problem, or I could do 1 > > task which would remove 45 items from the list. Gee, I think I'll do > > all 50 instead, since I *love* to do lots more work." > > "Let's see, I could do a set of several tasks to solve the problem, or I > could do 1 kludge that will sort of work, but will silently fuck over > anyone who uses NFS or who brings in a program that doesn't know that it > should use system call locking. > > You can argue all day with me but both my experience and > > lots of *really* smart folks can prove otherwise. > > You don't have very much experience then and/or you or your friends really > aren't as smart as you think you are. My friends? No, these are folks who *wrote* NFS and programs which do NFS. And, they know alot more about it than you (obviously). > Look, I don't like the idea of mail over NFS either. But I don't lie and > pretend that it can't be done. It can't be done reliably. > I have read the spec. I have spent entirely too much time looking at NFS > kernel source code. I know the people who invented NFS. I have a *really* *really* *REALLLLLLLLLY* hard time believing that given your obvious lack of knowledge. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 12:49:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06723 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06715 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA09733; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:48:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:48:28 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > Sigh. Where does this nonsense about "touch" or editors or kernel mods comes > from? > > Let me try again, nice and simple. > > /var/mail protected 775 and in group mail. > All mail readers protected 2755 and in group mail. > This is what some systems do when they don't want to grant world write. More > systems do this than use system call locking. Many more. > Wait, we were talking about 1777'd /var/mail, not 775...I don't have the option with your software of setting /var/mail to 775..or do I? > For your information, there are sites which use imapd to access NFS-mounted > spools. > Sounds like that defeats the purpose (or, perceived purpose) of IMAP...personally, I think that if 1777 is considered "appropriate" for IMAP, there should also be a check to see if the spool is NFS-mounted and give an error accordingly for that too...775 might be bad to you, but NFS-mounted spools are worse IMHO... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 13:10:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07669 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07649 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id NAA09893; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:09:44 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:16:11 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: Nate Williams cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199610312005.NAA04328@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:05:31 -0700 (MST), Nate Williams wrote: > First of all, you initially made the claim that Joe couldn't break into > your system, and that your system had /var/mail was chmod 1777, and that > the user in question didn't have a mbox. Then, you changed your story > to say that /var/mail was 775. Which is the correct story? Unless you > remove *every* program on your system which can create files *OR* you > patch the kernel to not allow any non-allowed to create files in > /var/mail (which means that locks aren't writable and you're effectively > setting things to mode 775), you *aren't* solving the problem. It is very simple. This has nothing to do with what I do on my system. I don't use a mail spool. Mail spools are stone knives and bearskins. I described, for comparison purposes, three different configurations: /var/mail at chmod 1777. /var/mail at 775 with setuid/setgid /var/mail at 755 and system call locks. I compared each on their strengths and weaknesses. Why is the concept of comparison difficult to understand? Are Americans really as poorly-educated and illiterate as I have been led to believe? > This seems like a *heck* of alot of work simply because I want to use > IMAP, which is the only piece of software that doesn't work with the > current setup on my systems. That is bullshit. The software works. The only question is whether or not to quell a warning message. > It's less work to fix the IMAP sources, > which I'll do and apparently you're not interested in integrating. I doubt that you use the software. And no, I am not going to screw 99% of the market for you. > You're arguements are the same. You're saying 'You *must* do X to fix > Z', and my response was that 'Y already fixes Z, so why do X which > involve A,B,C,D,E.... Y is a better solution'. Y fixes Z only if you define a critical component out of Z. In this case: X ::= procedures to make a public mail spool safe from DoS attacks Y ::= mail spool protected 755, system call locking only Z ::= mail spool reasonably safe from DoS attacks possibly accessed over NFS (and NFS server may be non-FreeBSD) not require privileges on mail reading programs In order for Y to fix Z, you must define "possibly accessed over NFS" out of Z. I have stated, many times, that this is not acceptable. Now, let's consider what Linux and some SVR4 systems do: Y' ::= mail spool protected 775, group mail, mail readers run setgid. In order for Y' to fix Z, you must define "not require privileges on mail reading programs" out of Z. Next, we consider X. When all of X's conditions are satisfied, this solves Z. Finally, if we add a condition of "must not be complex" to Z, then neither X, Y, nor Y' solve for Z. You have to do something completely different, such as deliver to home directories. Delivery to home directories is what the real hackers do. Spool directories are stone knives and bearskins. > No, as Marc has already been pointed out FreeBSD is in-line with *many* > other unix products, including some commercial versions. SVR4 does not use system call locking. That is the overwhelming bulk of the market. OSF/1 does not use system call locking. Linux does not use system call locking. Two dozen BSD variants which I have surveyed do not use system call locking. BSD on VAXen used system call locking before NFS support was added, and apparently now FreeBSD does. This is much of a market. > Mail deliver programs *have* to be setuid in the solution you propose as > well (/var/mail 775). I don't propose 775. I gave 775 as the example of what SVR4 and Linux do. In a public mail spool, mail delivery programs run as the user that they deliver to. No privileges at all. > None, what part of 'LOCKING in *any* form doesn't work over NFS' don't > you understand. How much do you want to wager on this point? I wager $100 that I can write a "locked open" and "locked close" routine that will work over NFS, and that you can not write a main program that will demonstrate its failure. You are allowed to use the following system file calls: read(), write(), ftruncate(), fstat(), as well as output to stdout (in other words, you aren't allowed to cheat by analyzing the locking mechanism and deliberately sabotaging it). > I've been doing administering email and NFS for about 12, so > does that make me 60% as good as you? *grin* 1984, yeah, that's about when the current crop of foolish kids started coming in. > #1 - NFS locking doesn't work. You can't make it work, but you can > reduce the window of the race by doing special condition code, but > the race still exists. I dare you to show the race in the hard link technique that I outlined. I don't think that you can. Enough people have stared at kernel code and concluded that there is no race if you do this. > #2 - By attempting to make NFS locking work (it doesn't), you open up > closed holes that require changes to programs outside of the > control of the sys. admin, *plus* it makes for alot more work for > doing normal everyone chores. It is much more work to tell people who have used NFS access for years that they are no longer allowed to so do because some guy at SRI says it doesn't work. > My friends? No, these are folks who *wrote* NFS and programs which do > NFS. Such as? Be careful. I know the guys who invented NFS, from the time that they were my student users at the Stanford Computer Science Department. I also work with the guys who develop it today at SUN. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 13:18:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08118 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08113 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id NAA10142; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:18:18 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:10:31 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:48:28 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Wait, we were talking about 1777'd /var/mail, not 775...I don't > have the option with your software of setting /var/mail to 775..or do > I? No, you don't. 775/setgid is the other religion, adhered to by many SVR4 and Linux systems. They think they a monopoly on the truth, just like the FreeBSD people with the 755/system-call-lock religion. > > For your information, there are sites which use imapd to access > > NFS-mounted spools. > Sounds like that defeats the purpose (or, perceived purpose) of > IMAP. Yes, it does. But people do it. They do it even after they are told not to do it. I haven't even mentioned the PC users who expect to NFS-mount a UNIX mail spool using their PC NFS software and read their mail on the PC using Eudora. "The horror, the horror..." > I think that if 1777 is considered "appropriate" for > IMAP, there should also be a check to see if the spool is NFS-mounted and > give an error accordingly for that too I don't understand what you gain by giving a "Your mail file is NFS mounted, I won't let you read it" error. Anyway, there is no portable way to determine if a directory is NFS-mounted. There was an undocumented portable way on SVR4, but SUN broke it in Solaris 2.5. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 13:49:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10393 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10385 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:49:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id QAA10944; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:48:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:48:21 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > > > For your information, there are sites which use imapd to access > > > NFS-mounted spools. > > Sounds like that defeats the purpose (or, perceived purpose) of > > IMAP. > > Yes, it does. But people do it. They do it even after they are told not to > do it. > > I haven't even mentioned the PC users who expect to NFS-mount a UNIX mail > spool using their PC NFS software and read their mail on the PC using Eudora. > "The horror, the horror..." > But, by supporting it, you encourage it *shrug* > > I think that if 1777 is considered "appropriate" for > > IMAP, there should also be a check to see if the spool is NFS-mounted and > > give an error accordingly for that too > > I don't understand what you gain by giving a "Your mail file is NFS mounted, I > won't let you read it" error. > More then you gain by having the software inform me that the permissions on my /var/mail don't meet your requirements? You are teaching new system administrators that NFS-mountd spools are "A Very Bad Thing(tm)" As for how: stat("/var/mail"); Solaris 2.5.1, FreeBSD and Linux are the only OSs I have access to currently, and they all support it...and, from what I can tell, their structures are all identical (I believe the field you would want to use is 'rdev') Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 13:52:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10593 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from samiam.cpicorp.com (samiam.cpicorp.com [204.233.170.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10560 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from samiam.cpicorp.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by samiam.cpicorp.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA17880 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:54:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199610312154.PAA17880@samiam.cpicorp.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting offer to one of my friends re: domain name In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 1996 20:24:03 EST." <199610310124.UAA05566@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:54:09 -0600 From: Bryan Koen Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > A friend of mine just got approached for the second time, by a company > who is interested in his domain name. Is there any advice out on the > net (or any personal anecdote) regarding this issue? He might be interested, > but it would definitely cost him something for a change... How would one > accomplish this transaction? > > John > dyson@freebsd.org > I'd tell him to sell it for as much as he can. A contractor that I worked with was offered an obscene amount of money for one of the domains that he had registered. Just a thought, BK From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 14:24:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12789 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:24:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12780 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:24:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id OAA12012; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:24:31 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:10:00 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:48:21 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > But, by supporting it, you encourage it *shrug* A Little Story See Mark. See Mark's nice house. See tall stack of bills on Mark's desk. See bossman. See bossman's money. See Mark program for bossman. See bossman give Mark money. See Mark pay bills. See Mark eat. See bossman say "Support mail over NFS". See Mark say "It is wrong to do mail over NFS." See bossman say "Do it, or I won't pay you any more." See Mark thinking about living on the street. See Mark thinking about being hungry again like he was when he was young many decades ago. See Mark give in to bossman. See FreeBSD. See them tell Mark "it is wrong to do mail over NFS." See Mark ask if they will give him money instead of bossman. See them laugh. See Mark mull it over. See Mark decide that Mark's nice house and Mark's full stomach are more important than whether or not it is wrong to do mail over NFS. The End > More then you gain by having the software inform me that the > permissions on my /var/mail don't meet your requirements? You, as system administrator, have a choice: 1) use the configuration that I recommend. 2) set the option to ignore the error, which is probably what your FreeBSD colleagues recommend. Either way will work. Refusing to read the mail won't work. > You are teaching > new system administrators that NFS-mountd spools are "A Very Bad Thing(tm)" The little story above is why I can't do this. > Solaris 2.5.1, FreeBSD and Linux are the only OSs I have access to > currently, and they all support it Solaris 2.5 and Linux use .lock files and support mail over NFS. It is an error if the .lock file can't be created on those systems. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 14:28:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12965 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.PII.COM (pii.com [192.77.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA12959 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from PII.COM by PII.COM (4.1/SMI-4.4) id AA18043; Thu, 31 Oct 96 15:45:20 PPE Received: by smtp with Microsoft Mail id <327927CD@smtp>; Thu, 31 Oct 96 14:27:25 PST From: Robert Clark To: Bill Fenner , gpalmer Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Robert Clark Subject: Re: FW: countdown Date: Thu, 31 Oct 96 14:27:00 PST Message-Id: <327927CD@smtp> Encoding: 27 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What we need is a dirt cheap internet (Computer) hardware store. ---------- From: gpalmer To: Bill Fenner Cc: Robert Clark; FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FW: countdown Date: Thursday, October 31, 1996 1:43AM Bill Fenner wrote in message ID <96Oct29.135111pst.177480@crevenia.parc.xerox.com>: > Sounds like Fry's Electronics. (Although they have much more electronics tha > n > food, and I've never seen microwave burritos. But you can get shampoo, > pringles, an answering machine and a hard drive in one trip...) Now all we need is to persuade them to open outside the Bay Area of California (somewhere in the NY/NJ area would be fine for my situation right now :-) ) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 14:32:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13222 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.PII.COM (pii.com [192.77.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13216; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:32:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from PII.COM by PII.COM (4.1/SMI-4.4) id AA18054; Thu, 31 Oct 96 15:47:41 PPE Received: by smtp with Microsoft Mail id <3279285A@smtp>; Thu, 31 Oct 96 14:29:46 PST From: Robert Clark To: Gary Palmer , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: fenner , freebsd-chat , ROBERTC , Thomas Gellekum Subject: Re: FW: countdown Date: Thu, 31 Oct 96 14:28:00 PST Message-Id: <3279285A@smtp> Encoding: 28 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Don't forget the chocolate chip, and CHiPs. Haw,,, [RC] ---------- From: Jordan K. Hubbard To: Gary Palmer Cc: Thomas Gellekum; fenner; ROBERTC; freebsd-chat Subject: Re: FW: countdown Date: Thursday, October 31, 1996 1:01AM > don't break and you get nicer crisps (I think they're meant to be made > differently too so that they're not as greasy or something. I have no > idea). They're not cooked. It's an entirely different potato-rendering process. :-) Jordan P.S. And you blokes mapping "french fries" to "chips" isn't an abuse of the english language? OK, so they're not actually French, they're Belgian, but the American who brought the name back was confused since we're famous for not knowing our geography, and he simply thought he was in France. Everyone knows that a chip is either an integrated circuit or a cow product ("don't step in the cow chip there, son.") From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 14:42:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13866 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilms.nla.gov.au (ilms.nla.gov.au [192.102.239.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13859 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from gadget.nla.gov.au (cmakin@gadget.nla.gov.au [203.4.201.52]) by ilms.nla.gov.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA40942; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:38:49 +1100 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:42:39 +1100 (EST) From: Carl Makin To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-Reply-To: <199610311801.LAA03492@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > Everyone knows that a chip is either an integrated circuit or a cow > > product ("don't step in the cow chip there, son.") > Any self-respecting cow-hand doesn't call them 'chips', but we'll ignore They're called "Cow Pats" down here. Carl. -- Carl Makin (VK1KCM) C.Makin@nla.gov.au 'Work +61 6 262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" 'If you want to make your spouse pay attention to what you say... Talk in your sleep!' From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 16:07:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA18280 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18275 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id TAA12702; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:06:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:06:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > > This seems like a *heck* of alot of work simply because I want to use > > IMAP, which is the only piece of software that doesn't work with the > > current setup on my systems. > > That is bullshit. The software works. The only question is whether or not to > quell a warning message. > No, actually, the question is whether that warning condition should exist in the first place. Any *knowledgeable* systems administrator knows better then to use NFS for s mail spool, and the reasons why. If they do end up using it (which I believe Terry mentions he does?), they also know what steps to take to reduce (not eliminate, only reduce) the chances of a problem arising... Your software is broken in that it *does not* discourage the use of NFS mail spools. As a systems *programmer*, I can understand why you do this, because it reduces the number of bug reports you receive...as a systems *administrator*, I feel your software is broken by *not* discouraging the use of NFS mounted spools. > > It's less work to fix the IMAP sources, > > which I'll do and apparently you're not interested in integrating. > > I doubt that you use the software. > Daily for the past, oh, 3 years when I first heard of pine/imap, because it allowed me to finally get away from NFS mounted mail spools in an ISP setting... > And no, I am not going to screw 99% of the market for you. > I honestly thing you are deluding yourself with this figure... > Now, let's consider what Linux and some SVR4 systems do: > Y' ::= mail spool protected 775, group mail, mail readers run setgid. > In order for Y' to fix Z, you must define "not require privileges on mail > reading programs" out of Z. > Ah, so now that it seems to be determined that SVR4 and Linux both set their mail spools to 775, and we know that IMAP is broken unless the mail spool is set to 1777, *and* you've stated that the world has basically adopted Linux...doesn't that heavily change your '99%' figure? > Delivery to home directories is what the real hackers do. Spool directories > are stone knives and bearskins. > To you...but I've checked with a friend at UUnet about what they do, and it seems they use either POP or 'login to central mail server'...but UUnet probably doesn't count as big as 'UofWashington', so doesn't count... > > No, as Marc has already been pointed out FreeBSD is in-line with *many* > > other unix products, including some commercial versions. > > SVR4 does not use system call locking. That is the overwhelming bulk of the > market. OSF/1 does not use system call locking. Linux does not use system > call locking. Two dozen BSD variants which I have surveyed do not use system > call locking. > What is considered 'system call locking'? fcntl *and* flock, or one of them? or...? Both Linux *and* Solaris 2.5.1 support both, if that is the case... > I don't propose 775. I gave 775 as the example of what SVR4 and Linux do. > right, so now SVR4, Linux *and* FreeBSD break IMAP...I will make the assumption that both NetBSD and OpenBSD are similar, but I've never used either, so can't say for certain.. > I also work with the guys who develop it today at SUN. > Well...unless you can bring them into the discussion, I would pretty much state that who you know is irrelevant, since there is no way of proving it... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 16:11:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA18456 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18447 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id TAA12871 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:11:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:11:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: CERT Advisory (was: /var/mail permissions) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry recently mentioned posting to some of the IMAP groups about the DoS (jokingly, of course)... Since it is an easily reproducible DoS, and since it is a security risk...what would it take to get a CERT Advisory put out in relation to it? :) Just a thought... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 16:25:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19184 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19178 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA19412 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:24:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611010024.QAA19412@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Cyber Promotions From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:24:53 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: owner-outage@sprint.net Received: from fire1.sprintlink.net (fire1.sprintlink.net [206.229.244.2]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA19129 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.int.sprintlink.net by fire1.sprintlink.net via smtpd (for implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) with SMTP; 31 Oct 1996 23:06:07 UT Received: (from root@localhost) by mercury.int.sprintlink.net (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA13019 for outage-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from medusa.int.sprintlink.net (medusa.int.sprintlink.net [206.229.244.24]) by mercury.int.sprintlink.net (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA12932 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from fire1dmz.int.sprintlink.net (fire1dmz.int.sprintlink.net [206.229.244.17]) by medusa.int.sprintlink.net (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA09173 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:26:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from tiny.sprintlink.net ([199.0.55.90]) by fire1dmz.int.sprintlink.net via smtpd (for medusa.int.sprintlink.net [206.229.244.24]) with SMTP; 31 Oct 1996 20:33:46 UT Received: from fire1.sprintlink.net (fire1.sprintlink.net [206.229.244.2]) by tiny.sprintlink.net (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA24418 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mercury.int.sprintlink.net by fire1.sprintlink.net via smtpd (for tiny.sprintlink.net [199.0.55.90]) with SMTP; 31 Oct 1996 20:33:45 UT Received: (from postout@localhost) by mercury.int.sprintlink.net (8.7.3/8.6.12) id PAA12831; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:33:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 15:33:42 -0500 (EST) From: Outage Poster X-Sender: postout@mercury.int.sprintlink.net To: outage@sprint.net Subject: Sprint and Cyber Promotions' Settlement Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-outage@sprint.net Precedence: bulk The following memorandum is being sent to Sprint customers for distribution within their organizations and to their respective customers. Scott SprintLink NOC - ----------------------------cut here-------------------------------------- Written Statement by Sprint Spokesperson Regarding the Sprint and Cyber Promotions' Settlement Sprint and Cyber Promotions have settled the lawsuit recently initiated by Cyber Promotions. The settlement was reached following a hearing on Friday, October 25, in which the federal court judge declined to grant Cyber Promotions' request for a Temporary Restraining Order. In the settlement, Sprint has agreed to reconnect Cyber Promotions' T1 lines for a maximum of three weeks. During that period, Cyber Promotions has agreed to use only those domain names registered to them, and to promptly remove from its mailing lists any addressee who so requests. Cyber Promotions has released all claims against Sprint, and has also agreed not to apply for Sprint Internet services in the future. Sprint has denied any wrongdoing in terminating Cyber Promotions' service, and specifically denies Cyber Promotions' allegation (made in its press release, but not in its court complaint) that Sprint's actions were influenced by America On-Line or any other third party. For questions, call 972/405-5345 ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 16:37:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19555 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19550 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id QAA15869; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:37:46 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:27:58 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:06:52 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Your software is broken in that it *does not* discourage the use > of NFS mail spools. As a systems *programmer*, I can understand why you > do this, because it reduces the number of bug reports you receive...as > a systems *administrator*, I feel your software is broken by *not* > discouraging the use of NFS mounted spools. The market does not share your openion. > > And no, I am not going to screw 99% of the market for you. > I honestly thing you are deluding yourself with this figure... What evidence do you have that FreeBSD represents as much as 1% of the UNIX market? I believe that it is much smaller. > Ah, so now that it seems to be determined that SVR4 and Linux both > set their mail spools to 775, and we know that IMAP is broken unless the > mail spool is set to 1777, *and* you've stated that the world has basically > adopted Linux...doesn't that heavily change your '99%' figure? No. The 99% figure has to do with using .lock files and permitting NFS access. Linux has a different problem. They want all mail readers to run with privileges. > What is considered 'system call locking'? fcntl *and* flock, or one > of them? or...? Either fcntl or flock. > Both Linux *and* Solaris 2.5.1 support both, if that is > the case... The operating system support isn't the issue. It's what the delivery agents use. The delivery agents on Linux and Solaris use .lock files, not system call locking. > right, so now SVR4, Linux *and* FreeBSD break IMAP Actually, no. Some of the SVR4 and Linux guys run it with SGID mail, although I discourage them from doing that. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 16:59:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA20905 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (mailhost1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA20887; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (UW-Gateway.Panda.COM [192.107.14.65]) by mailhost1.cac.washington.edu (8.8.2+UW96.10/8.8.2+UW96.10) with SMTP id QAA16311; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:59:45 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 16:38:08 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: chat@freebsd.org, "Marc G. Fournier" cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:22:20 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Wait, this is stupid...why can't the code have 'fallback' options... > if .lock fails, try lockin with fcntl(), if fcntl() fails, try with flock(), > if flock() fails, *then* give an error message and abort... Why are you hung up on "fallback"? The code does all known forms of locking, independently of whether or not another form fails. I don't know how many times I've told you this. Apparently it still hasn't sunk in. What does it mean for fcntl() or flock() to "fail"? The system call returns success always (see below) on a blocking lock. That doesn't mean that you have a useful lock; perhaps the local mail delivery program doesn't pay attention to it. That doesn't even mean you have a lock at all -- on most BSD systems flock() is a no-op if the file is NFS. > Right, agreed...but as long as one of the three succeeds (in order > of preferred locking method), don't print an error message, since a lock has > been established... This is incorrect. Please re-read the paragraph beginning "What does it mean for fcntl() or flock() to fail". > Can't you test whether a locking method succeeded or not? No. This is what I am trying to tell you. > My man page > seems to indicate that a -1 return vali dmeans the lock was unsuccessful > for an flock()...so if flock() == -1, try fcntl(). You misunderstand the meaning of the -1 return. A -1 return from flock()/fcntl() happens for one of only three reasons: 1) Your code is broken; you called it with bad arguments. 2) You have the misfortune of using one of the broken UNIX variants which has a systemwide limit on the number of locks, and that limit got popped. 3) Another process has the lock, and you are not blocking. In none of these three cases is it appropriate to "try the next method". Case (1) doesn't happen with debugged code. Case (3) doesn't happen if you are blocking (the process will wait until it gets the lock). So that only leaves case (2), which fortunately doesn't happen on most systems. A 0 return from flock()/fcntl() happens for one of two reasons: 1) you got the lock 2) the file is NFS and this OS variant no-ops locks over NFS. In other words, for all practical purposes, the system call always "works". On most UNIX variants, doing so accomplishes nothing useful, since mail delivery looks for a .lock file. > If you feel that a .lock > file is the preferred locking method, make that the first lock tha tis > attempted... It doesn't matter what order things are executed. The ability or inability to create a .lock file says nothing as to whether or not a system call lock should be applied. The ability to apply a system call lock says nothing as to whether or not a .lock file should be applied. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 17:29:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22104 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:29:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22067; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA26864; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:22:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611010122.SAA26864@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 18:22:55 +1700 (MST) Cc: MRC@Panda.COM, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at Oct 31, 96 07:22:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Wait, this is stupid...why can't the code have 'fallback' options... > if .lock fails, try lockin with fcntl(), if fcntl() fails, try with flock(), > if flock() fails, *then* give an error message and abort... Because silently relying on flock() to do what the man page says it does is something that has bit him in the past, he says. I think it's too much emphasis on the negative. I think that if he gets error reports on FreeBSD, he should say "sorry, report it to them: their flock is supposed to work". Then if there are bugs, they get fixed instead of warning the user and prompting a "what does this mean?" support mail message and a loss of confidence in FreeBSD doing the right thing by default. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 17:33:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22902 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA22884 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA06946; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:31:24 -0800 (PST) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Mark Crispin , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Oct 1996 19:06:52 EST." Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 17:31:24 -0800 Message-ID: <6944.846811884@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You say potato, he says potatoe, can we call this whole discussion off now? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 22:43:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA23203 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA23198 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id BAA19580; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:42:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:42:05 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > > Ah, so now that it seems to be determined that SVR4 and Linux both > > set their mail spools to 775, and we know that IMAP is broken unless the > > mail spool is set to 1777, *and* you've stated that the world has basically > > adopted Linux...doesn't that heavily change your '99%' figure? > > No. The 99% figure has to do with using .lock files and permitting NFS > access. > But, if SVR4 and Linux both set their spools to 775, then how can .lock files work on them? Unless IMAP is setgid, which, as with setuid, I believe is a NO-NO. > Actually, no. Some of the SVR4 and Linux guys run it with SGID mail, although > I discourage them from doing that. > Will that trigger the error message, or quiet it? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 22:51:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA23680 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (royk@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA23675 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id WAA20281; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:51:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:48:44 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:42:05 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > But, if SVR4 and Linux both set their spools to 775, then how can > .lock files work on them? Unless IMAP is setgid, which, as with setuid, I > believe is a NO-NO. Their religion is to make all mail readers (including IMAP) setgid. > > Some of the SVR4 and Linux guys run it with SGID mail, although > > I discourage them from doing that. > > > Will that trigger the error message, or quiet it? If it runs setgid, it won't trigger any error message, it'll just work. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 23:06:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA24206 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA24200 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA04370; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:35:02 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611010705.RAA04370@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: 2.1.5r -> current upgrade To: michaelv@MindBender.serv.net (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:35:01 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611010602.WAA21132@MindBender.serv.net> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Oct 31, 96 10:02:28 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com stands accused of saying: > > >This only works north of the equator, I'm afraid. In the southern > >hemisphere you'll actually lose a minute by doing this. > > Oh well, yeah, if you get American disks. > > But if you get drives designed for markets in the southern hemisphere, > which spin the other direction, then it will work. Harddisks are made in Taiwan; the 'upside-down-disk' is a mistranslation of the Thai phrase that corresponds to "dead with its legs in the air" by over-hopeful marketing people. > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 23:34:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA27660 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA27639 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id CAA20039; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:33:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:33:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:42:05 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > But, if SVR4 and Linux both set their spools to 775, then how can > > .lock files work on them? Unless IMAP is setgid, which, as with setuid, I > > believe is a NO-NO. > > Their religion is to make all mail readers (including IMAP) setgid. > > > > Some of the SVR4 and Linux guys run it with SGID mail, although > > > I discourage them from doing that. > > > > > Will that trigger the error message, or quiet it? > > If it runs setgid, it won't trigger any error message, it'll just work. > Well, I think you just gave me my solution...and after how many email passing back and forth? :( Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 31 23:38:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA28959 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (trebor@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA28954 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:38:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id XAA20392; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:38:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:37:35 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:33:57 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > If it runs setgid, it won't trigger any error message, it'll just work. > > > Well, I think you just gave me my solution...and after how many > email passing back and forth? :( Presuming that you are able to figure out how to make it run setgid. It's not as easy as you think. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 00:09:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05177 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05167 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:09:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id DAA20386; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:09:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:09:08 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:33:57 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > If it runs setgid, it won't trigger any error message, it'll just work. > > > > > Well, I think you just gave me my solution...and after how many > > email passing back and forth? :( > > Presuming that you are able to figure out how to make it run setgid. It's not > as easy as you think. > Well, I typed in 'chmod 2755 imapd' and it worked...no error messages, and no /var/mail set to 1777... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 00:13:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05778 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:13:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (azuma@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA05769 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id AAA20442; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:13:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:13:14 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:09:08 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > Well, I typed in 'chmod 2755 imapd' and it worked...no error > messages, and no /var/mail set to 1777... Have you tried logging in to an IMAP server yet? From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 01:45:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13245 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from quagmire.ki.net (root@quagmire.ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA13237 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by quagmire.ki.net (8.8.2/8.7.5) with SMTP id EAA22348; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 04:45:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 04:44:59 -0500 (EST) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Mark Crispin cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:09:08 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Well, I typed in 'chmod 2755 imapd' and it worked...no error > > messages, and no /var/mail set to 1777... > > Have you tried logging in to an IMAP server yet? > As I said, 'no error messages'...my only access to my mail spool is via IMAP *shrug* Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 01:50:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13473 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:50:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (gnof@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA13466 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id BAA20730; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:49:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 01:48:43 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail (was: re: Help, permission problems...) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 04:44:59 -0500 (EST), Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Have you tried logging in to an IMAP server yet? > > > As I said, 'no error messages'...my only access to my mail > spool is via IMAP *shrug* Did you log in to the IMAP server, or are you using rimapd? If the latter, try it from someplace where you have to type your password. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 03:14:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18759 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from foo.primenet.com (gg1-48.starlinknet.net [206.117.228.48]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA18751; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bkogawa@localhost) by foo.primenet.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA15845; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:15:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:15:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611010415.UAA15845@foo.primenet.com> To: gpalmer@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FW: countdown Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.chat References: <> <1998.846744227@orion.webspan.net> From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" Cc: Robert Clark , FreeBSD Chat , Bill Fenner X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In localhost.freebsd.chat you write: >Bill Fenner wrote in message ID ><96Oct29.135111pst.177480@crevenia.parc.xerox.com>: >> Sounds like Fry's Electronics. (Although they have much more electronics tha >> n >> food, and I've never seen microwave burritos. But you can get shampoo, >> pringles, an answering machine and a hard drive in one trip...) >Now all we need is to persuade them to open outside the Bay Area of >California (somewhere in the NY/NJ area would be fine for my situation >right now :-) ) Well, they do have Fry's in Southern California :) :) :) There's an interesting page on Fry's called "Breakfast at Fry's", talking mostly about the negative parts of Fry's Electronics: which spends plenty of time talking about the "dark side" of Fry's. >Gary >-- >Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member >FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info -- bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 06:23:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA06054 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:23:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA06049 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from gold.interlog.com (gold.interlog.com [198.53.145.2]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.7.6/8.7.6) with SMTP id JAA02087 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:13:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:23:04 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD port to PPC ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are they any backroom chit-chat on a FreeBSD port over to the Power PC Platform (PPCP) ?? I Think thats what it's called now. I like these Power Macintosh computers from Apple and the clone makers, but the MacOS just sucks big time, I want a OS to take advantage of all that raw power. Paul Griffith Apple Certified Tech. running FreeBSD on a AMD386/40 at home. paulg@interlog.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 06:56:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA09338 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from troll.uunet.ca (troll.uunet.ca [142.77.1.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA09322 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by troll.uunet.ca with SMTP id <21006-22881>; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:56:27 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:56:26 -0500 From: Cat Okita To: Paul Griffith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD port to PPC ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Paul Griffith wrote: > I like these Power Macintosh computers from Apple and the clone makers, > but the MacOS just sucks big time, I want a OS to take advantage of all > that raw power. Run AIX *snort* Cat From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 06:56:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA09347 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from toth.hq.ferg.com (pm1-16.wmbg.widomaker.com [206.161.154.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA09324 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from toth.hq.ferg.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by toth.hq.ferg.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09132; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:56:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 09:56:14 -0500 (EST) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@toth.hq.ferg.com To: Carl Makin cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FW: countdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Carl Makin wrote: > On Thu, 31 Oct 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > > Everyone knows that a chip is either an integrated circuit or a cow > > > product ("don't step in the cow chip there, son.") > > > Any self-respecting cow-hand doesn't call them 'chips', but we'll ignore > > They're called "Cow Pats" down here. Generally they are called cow patties here.. ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If Pete and Repeat were System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | sittin on a fence and Pete Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@widomaker.com | fell off, who is left? From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 10:10:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08020 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ican.net (ican.net [198.133.36.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA07613 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from gate.ican.net(really [198.133.36.2]) by ican.net via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:06:30 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Jul-10) Received: (from smap@localhost) by gate.ican.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02977 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cabal.io.org(10.1.6.2) by gate.ican.net via smap (V1.3) id sma002973; Fri Nov 1 13:05:44 1996 Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06223 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:06:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: cabal.io.org: taob owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:06:05 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: tcpd-ish behaviour in named? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't know when this started, but it seems that the version of BIND that ships with current versions of FreeBSD will not reply to queries from hosts that lack reverse DNS. This "feature" doesn't seem to be present on our BSD/OS 2.01 name servers. Is this correct, or do I have another problem here? -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 11:58:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25289 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25268 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:58:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13258; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:56:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:56:30 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Mark Crispin cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail SUMMARY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gee. Okay, now let me see if I have this straight: 1) For safety purposes, it is best for any process mucking with a user's mailbox to use *all* locking mechanism supported on the platform. 2) For a variety of debatable reasons, the standard mail spool policy in FreeBSD does not support .lock file locking. 3) Mark Crispin's software apparently assumes that .lock file locking is available on all platforms and thus encounters some problems on FreeBSD. 4) The meat of the debate is if and how the software should determine the available locking mechanisms. I gather that .lock file support is currently configured at compile time. 5) Most of this thread has been about mail spool policy which has little if anything to do with the issue at hand of detecting supported locking mechanism in an accurate and unobtrusive way. Is this correct? -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 14:02:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA29591 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:02:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (wafan@tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA29567 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (8.7.5/UW-NDC Revision: 2.28 ) id OAA22634; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:01:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:57:35 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: /var/mail SUMMARY To: John Fieber cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John, Good summary!! On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:56:30 -0500 (EST), John Fieber wrote: > 1) For safety purposes, it is best for any process mucking with a > user's mailbox to use *all* locking mechanism supported on the > platform. Agreed. > 2) For a variety of debatable reasons, the standard mail spool > policy in FreeBSD does not support .lock file locking. Agreed. > 3) Mark Crispin's software apparently assumes that .lock file > locking is available on all platforms and thus encounters some > problems on FreeBSD. Slight rewording: 3) Mark Crispin's software assumes that .lock file locking should be attempted on all platforms on the grounds that it is impossible to know when it is needed and when it isn't. The software outputs a warning message when it can not do .lock file locking, unless that message is quelled. That message is not quelled by default on FreeBSD (or on any other platform) because: 3a) NFS rathole 3b) sysadmin may install a different delivery agent (how do we know?) 3c) multiplatform interoperability is of paramount importance There seems to be considerable controversy about (3a) and (3c); many individuals dismiss both of these. I do not have that luxury; no matter how much flamage I may receive from the FreeBSD community, the people who sign my paychecks will not permit me to abandon either of these. I remain bewildered why the FreeBSD community can not make due with a technote of the form: c-client, which is used by IMAP, Pine, and other software, is distributed with a conservative multi-platform configuration that causes an extraneous warning on most FreeBSD systems. Unless you are using NFS to access mail, or you have changed the local mail delivery agent, you should build this software with -DIGNORE_LOCK_EACCES_ERRORS to quell that warning message. > 4) The meat of the debate is if and how the software should > determine the available locking mechanisms. I gather that .lock > file support is currently configured at compile time. Agreed. The argument boils down to which is the better default: 4a) do what works, and is least obnoxious, for most FreeBSD sites 4b) do what is least likely to cause undetected failure As software developer, I choose to ship with the (b) default, under the assumption that a site that wants (a) and understands the possible adverse consequences can figure out how to switch to (a). Prior to imap-4, I did (a), and was badly burnt. The FreeBSD community has been the only one that has advocated a return to (a). In every other case reported to date, the warning meant that real locking failures were happening. Most of the customers want us to guarantee that the software is, and always will be, setgid-safe. We've resisted that. > 5) Most of this thread has been about mail spool policy which has > little if anything to do with the issue at hand of detecting > supported locking mechanism in an accurate and unobtrusive way. Agreed. I believe that there's no portable way to detect the supported locking mechanism, especially *not* on a per-file basis (which it needs to be once NFS rears its ugly head). SCO and other vendors agree, and follow the "apply all possible locks" position too. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 14:29:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08138 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08121 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ican.net by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA18304 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:29:59 -0700 Received: from gate.ican.net(really [198.133.36.2]) by ican.net via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:25:37 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Jul-10) Received: (from smap@localhost) by gate.ican.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA14554 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cabal.io.org(10.1.6.2) by gate.ican.net via smap (V1.3) id sma014552; Fri Nov 1 17:24:57 1996 Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by cabal.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA06359 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:25:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: cabal.io.org: taob owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 17:25:17 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CHAT-L Subject: Re: tcpd-ish behaviour in named? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry, I meant to send this to freebsd-current... -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Senior Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 20:36:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA20986 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pop01.ny.us.ibm.net (pop01.ny.us.ibm.net [165.87.194.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA20941; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:35:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by pop01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id EAA58222; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 04:35:46 GMT Message-Id: <199611020435.EAA58222@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" , "phk@freebsd.org" Date: Sat, 02 Nov 96 23:34:58 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2 branch created. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:59:06 -0800, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >I would like to stress the following: It has not, and will not, at >this time be decided if there will ever be another release on this >branch (ie: 2.2.5 or similar) This will be decided no earlier than >spring '97 some time, and pestering anybody about it now in the >mailing lists is at best counter-productive, at worst will have the >opposite effect. If you decide that you would like to see a 2.2.5 >release down the road, the operative word is "contribution". If no additional work is done under the 2.2 branch what would be next then? From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 20:38:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA21195 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA21186 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA07637; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:39:10 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:39:08 -0800 (PST) From: Veggy Vinny To: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ricochet modem by Metricom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Doug White wrote: > On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > > > Oh okay, had you actually seen any of their antennas before? > > Yes. They are all over campus. Little black boxes on the roof. :) > And we have a repeater outside my dorm here: a little white box with a > antenna hanging down attached to the light pole. > > The new phase modems have a larger antenna too which really helps > connectivity. I wonder if the Ricochet modems will be faster later on since the modem can do up to 100kBps but if you're on the campus and only see 28.8k then their claim isn't true. > > Hmmm, what about on a desktop with a 16550 UART? > > No prob. My 486/75 has a 16550 and it cooks. Oh okay.... The bad thing about the Ricochet is it doesn't have enough lights. > > > > Hmmm, do you just use a three digit number to reach U of Oregon > > > > like the number**ppp or is the number longer than that and is the > > > > performance different if you just used the ricochet internet service > > > > instead of the university gateway? > > > > > > Yup. I haven't used Ricochet's service so I can't compare them. All I > > > know is that the University is free and Metricom's is not :) > > > > Not for UC Berkeley since I think students get it for $29.95/month > > with the modem rental included... While the normal rate is $29.95 + > > $10/month for the modem... What are you guys paying there? > > Same rate. I meant that there is no additional charge above the modem > itself for the network service. Oh okay, do you know if you can use the Ricochet internet service at all if you used the university service? > > > We have found that some monitors and other hardware are not well shielded, > > > and the radio transmissions do interfere with them. There is a Mac with > > > an older display that has this problem. The best thing to do is move the > > > radio. You can buy a 10 ft cord from Metricom so you can place the modem > > > further away from the problem hardware. > > > > Hmmm, the only problem here is my modem can be next to my computer > > case but my modem is close to the window now, does the performance > > decrease if i put it farther away from the window? > > Depends on what your buildings are made of. :) We have largely concrete > & steel, the world's best shielding. So we have to stay near windows. > Depends on where you are in relation to a receiver. That's exactly what my building is made of so that's why my modem is on top of my HP DeskJet 855c printer. :) What I wanted to know was also if it was possible since I only have one FreeBSD machine now, if I had my own class c address, could I just make my machine have two ip's, one incoming from the ISP and one ip for my class c but all outgoing packets will be from my class c address? Vince GaiaNet Corporation - Unix Networking Operations - GUS Mailing Lists Admin From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 1 23:59:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA19291 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA19279 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA11583; Fri, 1 Nov 1996 23:59:17 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Crispin cc: John Fieber , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /var/mail SUMMARY In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Nov 1996 12:57:35 PST." Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 23:59:17 -0800 Message-ID: <11581.846921557@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I remain bewildered why the FreeBSD community can not make due with a technote > of the form: > c-client, which is used by IMAP, Pine, and other software, is > distributed with a conservative multi-platform configuration > that causes an extraneous warning on most FreeBSD systems. > Unless you are using NFS to access mail, or you have changed > the local mail delivery agent, you should build this software > with -DIGNORE_LOCK_EACCES_ERRORS to quell that warning message. Me too - I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Sheesh, it's just a warning message, it's not like you buggered the pope on national TV or something! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 01:00:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA23394 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:00:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA23387 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA06899; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:30:44 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611020900.TAA06899@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:30:43 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <11721.846923403@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 2, 96 00:30:03 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > To those of you who haven't eaten at "The Stinking Rose", you should. The > > 40 clove garlic chicken was excellent. > > > > Thanks to Sean for setting it up. > > [ jkh looks glum - he had to miss this one in order to babysit a sick > ISP, many miles to the north. :-( ] jkh looks glum? How about us poor bastards who would have had to swim to get there? 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 01:21:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA24285 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA24278 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA09049 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:21:39 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA01646 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:21:39 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA26907 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:01:39 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611020901.KAA26907@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2 branch created. To: chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:01:39 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611020435.EAA58222@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net> from Francisco Reyes at "Nov 2, 96 11:34:58 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Francisco Reyes wrote: > If no additional work is done under the 2.2 branch what would be next > then? 3.0 -- the idea behind the major number change is the integration of the SMP stuff that is currently in a separate tree. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 01:32:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA25156 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:32:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA25141; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:32:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost.tfs.com [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04383; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:32:25 +0100 (MET) To: "Francisco Reyes" cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.2 branch created. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Nov 1996 23:34:58 -0400." <199611020435.EAA58222@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 10:32:24 +0100 Message-ID: <4381.846927144@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199611020435.EAA58222@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net>, "Francisco Reyes" write s: >On Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:59:06 -0800, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >>I would like to stress the following: It has not, and will not, at >>this time be decided if there will ever be another release on this >>branch (ie: 2.2.5 or similar) This will be decided no earlier than >>spring '97 some time, and pestering anybody about it now in the >>mailing lists is at best counter-productive, at worst will have the >>opposite effect. If you decide that you would like to see a 2.2.5 >>release down the road, the operative word is "contribution". > >If no additional work is done under the 2.2 branch what would be next >then? 2.3 or whatever the next mainline release will be. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 01:52:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27660 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27640 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 01:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA09706 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:51:49 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA01944 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:51:49 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA27400 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:49:56 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611020949.KAA27400@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:49:56 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611020900.TAA06899@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Nov 2, 96 07:30:43 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > > [ jkh looks glum - he had to miss this one in order to babysit a sick > > ISP, many miles to the north. :-( ] > > jkh looks glum? How about us poor bastards who would have had to swim to > get there? 8) ...or even fly! -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 02:10:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA29962 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 02:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA29953 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 02:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA01531; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 02:10:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611021010.CAA01531@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Nov 1996 10:49:56 +0100." <199611020949.KAA27400@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 02:10:39 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of J Wunsch : > As Michael Smith wrote: > > > > [ jkh looks glum - he had to miss this one in order to babysit a sick > > > ISP, many miles to the north. :-( ] > > > > jkh looks glum? How about us poor bastards who would have had to swim to > > get there? 8) > > ...or even fly! > Maybe next time have the dinner party at someone's house with an MBONE connection . I think Bill likes to throw parties 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 03:59:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA19500 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 03:59:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA19479 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 03:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA07089; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:22:55 +1030 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611021152.WAA07089@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:22:54 +1030 (CST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611021010.CAA01531@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Nov 2, 96 02:10:39 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > >From The Desk Of J Wunsch : > > As Michael Smith wrote: > > > > > > [ jkh looks glum - he had to miss this one in order to babysit a sick > > > > ISP, many miles to the north. :-( ] > > > > > > jkh looks glum? How about us poor bastards who would have had to swim to > > > get there? 8) > > > > ...or even fly! > > > > Maybe next time have the dinner party at someone's house with an MBONE > connection . I think Bill likes to throw parties 8) And I recurse by complaining about how I would still have to travel to find somewhere with an MBONE connection so I could watch the party 8) > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 10:52:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA13604 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA13578; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:52:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id TAA22125; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:51:55 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA11420; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:51:55 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id TAA28548; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:46:58 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611021846.TAA28548@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/japanese/vfghostscript - Imported sources To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:46:58 +0100 (MET) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, max@wide.ad.jp, asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi Asami) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611021254.EAA02693@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> from Satoshi Asami at "Nov 2, 96 04:54:41 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to -chat) As Satoshi Asami wrote: > * Uh guys, guys, can we keep it in English please? You're hurting > * my eyes with all those dollar signs! :-) > > What are you talking about? Can't you READ, we are talking in > ports/japanese! Go install mule! :> Well, i've got metamail and kterm installed -- but the mails came with the wrong MIME type! :-) (Not that i think it would have gained me anything, but i was just curious about it...) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 10:52:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA13620 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:52:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA13569 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id TAA22133 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:51:59 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA11423 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:51:58 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id TAA28578 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:48:52 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611021848.TAA28578@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:48:52 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611021010.CAA01531@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Nov 2, 96 02:10:39 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty wrote: > > ...or even fly! > > > > Maybe next time have the dinner party at someone's house with an MBONE > connection . I think Bill likes to throw parties 8) How do you transfer the dinner meal via MBONE? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 12:01:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA18791 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:01:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA18784 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 12:01:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id MAA00590; Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:44:29 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:44:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Paul Griffith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD port to PPC ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There's always BeOS. It runs on PCI-based PowerMacs with 603 and 604 processors, as well as the BeBox, a low-cost, PReP-ish dual-CPU system (imagine, SMP for $2200 fully configured!). I know, I have one. :-) BeOS feels like a cross between the user-friendliness of MacOS, the power of UNIX (including a POSIX API, GNU command-line tools, memory protection, SMP, shared libraries, microkernel architecture), the look of NeXT or SGI in the GUI, and the raw speed of Amiga. It should be making a big splash at MacWorld next January, and already has a lot of the media buzzing. If this sounds interesting, check out http://www.be.com. BTW, the DR8 beta version for PowerMac will be bundled with the January issue of MacTech magazine, so you will be able to try it out practically for free! Getting back on topic, if you really want to run UNIX on PPC (and I'm assuming MkLinux is not an option :-), I know that NetBSD is working on a PowerPC port. Right now it uses OpenFirmware for all I/O, so presumably it'll work on PPCP boxes without any trouble, and I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard to get it going on PCI PowerMacs as well. There's a mailing list at port-powerpc@netbsd.org, and check out http://www.netbsd.org for more info. Of course, OpenBSD will support PowerPC if NetBSD does, so try http://www.openbsd.org too. -- Jake On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Paul Griffith wrote: > Are they any backroom chit-chat on a FreeBSD port over to the Power PC > Platform (PPCP) ?? I Think thats what it's called now. > > I like these Power Macintosh computers from Apple and the clone makers, > but the MacOS just sucks big time, I want a OS to take advantage of all > that raw power. > > Paul Griffith > Apple Certified Tech. running FreeBSD on a AMD386/40 at home. > paulg@interlog.com > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 14:32:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00432 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 14:32:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (sdev.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00383 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 14:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (8.7.6/8.6.9) id JAA25422; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 09:27:13 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199611022227.JAA25422@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au> Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 09:27:12 +1100 From: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... References: <199611021010.CAA01531@rah.star-gate.com> <199611021848.TAA28578@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.49 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611021848.TAA28578@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Nov 2, 1996 19:48:52 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > connection . I think Bill likes to throw parties 8) > > How do you transfer the dinner meal via MBONE? Yeah, I'm yet to find anything that doesn't taste awful in a tarball. David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 17:58:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12998 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:58:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from xi.omniscient.com (root@cust1.max1.seattle.aa.net [205.199.141.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12987 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (smpatel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xi.omniscient.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA06576; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:54:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:54:37 -0800 (PST) From: Sujal Patel X-Sender: smpatel@xi.omniscient.com To: David Nugent cc: Joerg Wunsch , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-Reply-To: <199611022227.JAA25422@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, David Nugent wrote: > J Wunsch writes: > > > connection . I think Bill likes to throw parties 8) > > > > How do you transfer the dinner meal via MBONE? > > Yeah, I'm yet to find anything that doesn't taste awful in a tarball. RFC 9727 describes DTP (Dinner transport protocol). You should be warned though, DTP isn't very reliable yet. Just yesterday, MCI's border router ate my dinner... Sujal From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 19:11:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA16650 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from kavemachine.magna.com.au (kavemachine.magna.com.au [203.4.215.219]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA16635 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kaveman@localhost) by kavemachine.magna.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA04313; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:22:13 +1100 Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:22:13 +1100 (EST) From: Julian Jenkins To: Michael Smith cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-Reply-To: <199611020900.TAA06899@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > > > To those of you who haven't eaten at "The Stinking Rose", you should. The > > > 40 clove garlic chicken was excellent. > > > > > > Thanks to Sean for setting it up. > > > > [ jkh looks glum - he had to miss this one in order to babysit a sick > > ISP, many miles to the north. :-( ] > > jkh looks glum? How about us poor bastards who would have had to swim to > get there? 8) > You must be fitter than me!!! Kaveman kaveman@magna.com.au From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 19:42:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA19219 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA19197 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 19:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (jamie@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by tyger.inna.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA08218; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:44:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:44:08 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Joerg Wunsch cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-Reply-To: <199611021848.TAA28578@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > ...or even fly! > > > > > > > Maybe next time have the dinner party at someone's house with an MBONE > > connection . I think Bill likes to throw parties 8) > > How do you transfer the dinner meal via MBONE? > The newly implemented Simple Food Transfer Protocol (SFTP), available on the soon to be released frouted. > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 20:10:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA20860 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:10:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA20848 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:10:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14524(3)>; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:09:28 PST Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177476>; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:09:26 -0800 To: Amancio Hasty cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Nov 96 02:10:39 PST." <199611021010.CAA01531@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:09:18 PST From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Nov2.200926pst.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199611021010.CAA01531@rah.star-gate.com> you write: >Maybe next time have the dinner party at someone's house with an MBONE >connection . I think Bill likes to throw parties 8) But Amancio will have to bring over a Meteor and a real camera, my B&W QuickCam is not that good at "capturing the action". Plus it's too cold for the pool these days, and that's usually the main focus of our parties... Bill From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 20:42:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22169 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA22161 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:42:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01085; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:42:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611030442.UAA01085@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Bill Fenner cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Nov 1996 20:09:18 PST." <96Nov2.200926pst.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 20:42:12 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Bill Fenner : > In message <199611021010.CAA01531@rah.star-gate.com> you write: > >Maybe next time have the dinner party at someone's house with an MBONE > >connection . I think Bill likes to throw parties 8) > > But Amancio will have to bring over a Meteor and a real camera, my > B&W QuickCam is not that good at "capturing the action". Plus it's > too cold for the pool these days, and that's usually the main focus > of our parties... > > Bill I can bring over a FreeBSD ICast Server equip with camera , mic and http interface so others can control the server remotely 8) As for the attraction , beer, beer, music, invite lots of girls more beer 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 20:57:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22874 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA22867 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:57:05 -0800 (PST) From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu Received: from kongur (kongur.cs.ucdavis.edu) by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA26841; Sat, 2 Nov 96 20:57:03 PST Received: by kongur (SMI-8.6/UCDCS.SECLAB.Solaris2-2.1) id EAA04901; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 04:57:03 GMT Message-Id: <199611030457.EAA04901@kongur> Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... To: jamie@inna.net (Jamie Bowden) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 20:57:03 -0800 (PST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Jamie Bowden" at Nov 2, 96 10:44:08 pm X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > How do you transfer the dinner meal via MBONE? > > > > The newly implemented Simple Food Transfer Protocol (SFTP), available on > the soon to be released frouted. Ah... the dueling food standards. Which will win? So is DTP point-to-point and SFTP broadcast? Is one is better for satisfying huge appetites and the other for banquets? But has anyone thought of the security implications of either SFTP or the DTP? Could someone put mushrooms in my spaghetti in route??? Yuck! :-) -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 21:20:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA23957 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:20:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA23942 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from spyder.inna.net (jamie@spyder.inna.net [206.151.66.4]) by tyger.inna.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA14036; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:22:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:23:40 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-Reply-To: <199611030457.EAA04901@kongur> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996 obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu wrote: With SFTP you can establish 'Dinner Party Lists' and using the appropriate 'Buffet Tools,' you can selective sample items on the small but growing FBONE. Security will be achieved via the 'Hamilton Blender Hash,' which when used on the liquify setting, guarantees no one but the intended recipients will want your packets. > > > How do you transfer the dinner meal via MBONE? > > > > > > > The newly implemented Simple Food Transfer Protocol (SFTP), available on > > the soon to be released frouted. > > Ah... the dueling food standards. Which will win? So is DTP > point-to-point and SFTP broadcast? Is one is better for satisfying huge > appetites and the other for banquets? > > But has anyone thought of the security implications of either SFTP or the > DTP? Could someone put mushrooms in my spaghetti in route??? Yuck! :-) > > -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) > Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 21:29:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA24372 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:29:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper6b.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.62]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA24364 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id AAA15869; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:30:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 00:30:07 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@localhost To: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-Reply-To: <199611030457.EAA04901@kongur> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996 obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu wrote: > But has anyone thought of the security implications of either SFTP or the > DTP? Could someone put mushrooms in my spaghetti in route??? Yuck! :-) Not to worry, you'll have the option of either DES or PGP encryption. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@onyx.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 23:00:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01489 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:00:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA01460 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:00:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA05753; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 02:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA28097; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 02:02:40 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 02:02:40 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: jack cc: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Nov 1996, jack wrote: > On Sat, 2 Nov 1996 obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu wrote: > > > But has anyone thought of the security implications of either SFTP or the > > DTP? Could someone put mushrooms in my spaghetti in route??? Yuck! :-) > > Not to worry, you'll have the option of either DES or PGP encryption. So does this mean the food would have to be made outside of the US, then sent to the US, and then SFTP'd to all those German hackers? Do they have pizza in Germany? ;) (Not to neglect the Australian who started this, I think) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 23:28:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA03199 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:28:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (root@zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA03144 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:28:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sister.ludd.luth.se (sister.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.77]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.2) with ESMTP id IAA06193; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 08:27:55 +0100 Received: from localhost (smurfen@localhost) by sister.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id IAA00386; Sun, 3 Nov 1996 08:27:54 +0100 Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 08:27:54 +0100 (MET) From: Ola Persson To: Amancio Hasty cc: Bill Fenner , Joerg Wunsch , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-Reply-To: <199611030442.UAA01085@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > As for the attraction , beer, beer, music, invite lots of girls more beer 8) Yuck! American beer :/ Or imported beer that tastes like water anyways... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I Ola Persson I Tel. +46 (0)920 151 21 I I Porsogarden 8:81 I WWW: http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/smurfen I I 977 54 Lulea, Sweden I FreeBSD - Turns PC's into workstations I ------------- Hiroshima 45 -- Tjernobyl 86 -- Windows 95 ------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 2 23:47:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04040 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04023 for ; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA00511; Sat, 2 Nov 1996 23:47:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611030747.XAA00511@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Ola Persson cc: Bill Fenner , Joerg Wunsch , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD hacker dinner report... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Nov 1996 08:27:54 +0100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 23:47:10 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Ola Persson : > On Sat, 2 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > As for the attraction , beer, beer, music, invite lots of girls more beer 8 ) > > Yuck! American beer :/ Or imported beer that tastes like water anyways... > Okay, Bacardi 150 proof (Puerto Rican Rum) after that any babe would like Miss BSD 8) Cheers, Amancio