From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 01:21:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA05487 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 01:21:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA05463 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 01:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA17202 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:21:36 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA17501 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:21:35 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA09943 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:09:41 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611240909.KAA09943@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:09:41 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611240424.OAA24031@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Nov 24, 96 02:54:53 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > So, to deal with the "AV" crowd, whose hardware often can't handle > being starved of data for several hundred ms, drive manufacturers made > the recalibration process interruptible, so that data operations > continue and recalibration occurs in the "background". Makes me wonder: now that they _know_ the technology to perform the thermal recalibration in background, it doesn't cost the manufacturer any more. So why don't they simply ship all drives this way? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 09:53:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00873 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.kuwait.net (root@access.kuwait.net [194.54.234.234]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00834 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost(really [199.173.153.182]) by access.kuwait.net via sendmail with smtp (ident shadows using rfc1413) id for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:51:09 +0300 (GMT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #16 built 1996-Aug-3) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:53:33 +0200 (GMT) From: Thamer Al-Herbish X-Sender: shadows@localhost To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: what a pisser In-Reply-To: <199611220544.VAA14598@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: [snip] > o mail filters to eliminate duplicates [snip] Some of us are in "exotic" parts of the world, where bandwidth is not a luxury we can simply take for granted. I'm not complaining, just thought I'd point it out, if you could atleast take the time to setup your mailreader correctly you'd help the "little" people out :) -- Thamer Al-Herbish shadows@whitefang.com shadows@kuwait.net -=WhiteFang UNIX Software Development and Consultancy=- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 09:54:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01050 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01021 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA08393 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:03:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA25280; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:58:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:58:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199611241558.IAA25280@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: In Hollywood, nothing is as it seems In-Reply-To: <520.848814781@time.cdrom.com> References: <199611240036.QAA05973@covina.lightside.com> <520.848814781@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > doubt that our SCO compatibility is that robust (nor is Linux's) to run such > > wonderful programs as Microsoft Word, Foxpro, and Wordperfect for SCO. :-) > > There's one obvious way to find out, of course. Any chances for > testing here? Someone very kindly lent me a copy of SCO-WP (shipped from S. Africa of all places) that I just got in my hot little hands last week. Hopefully I'll get some time to mess with it this week and fix and SCO compatability problems, or at least look at them and tell you whether or not it work. (This means I will hopefully have a better clue why SCO-FlexLM doesn't work). Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 10:08:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02754 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:08:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02714 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id EAA07836 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:40:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id XAA24651; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:08:09 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611241238.XAA24651@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) In-Reply-To: <199611240909.KAA09943@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 24, 96 10:09:41 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:08:07 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > As Michael Smith wrote: > > > So, to deal with the "AV" crowd, whose hardware often can't handle > > being starved of data for several hundred ms, drive manufacturers made > > the recalibration process interruptible, so that data operations > > continue and recalibration occurs in the "background". > > Makes me wonder: now that they _know_ the technology to perform the > thermal recalibration in background, it doesn't cost the manufacturer > any more. So why don't they simply ship all drives this way? I believe that they are; poke a Seagate Medalist in the middle of recal (if you can catch it at it in the first place), or a new Hawk or 'cuda, and see if it siezes. I can't speak for other manufacturers, as I haven't been hands-on with enough product to be sure of myself. > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 10:08:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02761 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02733 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id EAA07796 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:22:17 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vRdXq-000QrGC; Sun, 24 Nov 96 13:20 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id NAA00505; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:14:23 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611241214.NAA00505@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: ATAPI Vs Scsi In-Reply-To: <199611231921.LAA27787@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Nov 23, 96 11:21:00 am" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:14:23 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty writes: >> From The Desk Of Joel Ray Holveck : >> >> Yes, I've seen other indications of this. It might mark a trend >> towards maturity in the market: even Micosloth users are gradually >> asking why this expensive "operating system" keeps crashing, and >> people with multimedia applications probably wonder why programs >> sometimes hang for half a second before continuing. The German trade >> magazines (not necessarily reliable) claim that there's a trend >> towards SCSI, too. > > My concern about IDE is that at least for a development is kind of nice > to be able to add drives as the need arises additionally, the ease of > configuration -- well sort of, we know about the scsi cables , terminators, > etc.. however if one can agree on the configuration for scsi busses > at least for your company then it is easy to add/remove drives. > For instance, lets assume that my development sources reside on a > separate disk at the end of the day I can take the external disk home > and keep working (assuming that one has a similar setup at home). Agreed. I'm doing that right now, in fact, copying a complete disk just by hanging it in the string. Just a pity you have to reboot to do so. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 10:08:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02805 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02759 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id EAA07788 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:21:47 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vRdXq-000QrJC; Sun, 24 Nov 96 13:20 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id NAA00496; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:13:00 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611241213.NAA00496@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) In-Reply-To: <199611221809.KAA07379@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Nov 22, 96 10:09:01 am" To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:12:59 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> Jonathan M. Bresler writes: >>> Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> >>>> the big difference between the US and Europe (I don't think Canada's >>>> really on either side) is that many US Americans have a real load of >>>> guilt pumped into them, and that fashions their drinking habits. >>> >>> well, its not very surprising is it! >>> >>> europe has been dumping its religious nuts in ships and sending >>> them to the US. no wonder this country has all the guilt. >> >> Well, there's a certain truth to that, but I thought some of them went >> of their own wee frill. Anyway, I don't understand why being pious >> makes you guilty. > > piety does not make your guilty. > rather being raised in an atmosphere of "inherent guilt"..... > well lets drop that one. > > the big difference is whether on applies ones piety to themselves > or to others. in translations the phrase may be "a righteous > man in a fur coat." he's nice an warm, talking about the deeds > of all those without coats during the winter. > > a similar sentiment was once expressed as "let him.....the first > stone." hhmmm...thhis could get rather heated. perhaps > best left alone. hacking is so much less dangerous. You said it. >>> you all exported all yours to us ;) >> >> Not I. I'm an export too. > > export from the US or re-import to europe ;) No :-) I'll have a home page up in the not-too-distant future. In the meantime, you can find it from O'Reilly's web pages about "Porting UNIX software" > ps. "wee frill" ?? some left europe to escape societies that had > frills on their clothes. among other reasons. surely, > they left their "wee frill"s behind. Ah, but then there were the merchants :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 11:08:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06091 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA06062 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id OAA06789; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:06:44 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:06:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199611241906.OAA06789@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: Joel Ray Holveck To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu In-reply-to: <199611240424.OAA24031@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:54:53 +1030 (CST)) Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > What are these A/V drives I see nowdays? Are these just > > standard-issue SCSI drives trying to get on the 'multimedia' > > bandwagon, or is there really something else to them? > They are standard drives which do not have an off cycl;e for thermal > recalibration. This is not strictly true. [snip] So, to deal with the "AV" crowd, whose hardware often can't handle being starved of data for several hundred ms, drive manufacturers made the recalibration process interruptible, so that data operations continue and recalibration occurs in the "background". I thought that most SCSI devices released the bus during the entire seek process, which was one of the advantages of SCSI over IDE to begin with. Am I mistaken? From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 11:38:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07654 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA07649; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id OAA01239; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:37:54 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199611241937.OAA01239@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Stereo RealAudio for FreeBSD! To: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu (Charles Henrich) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:37:49 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611241524.KAA25683@crh.cl.msu.edu> from "Charles Henrich" at Nov 24, 96 10:24:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Hmm, I havent been able to distinguish a 128 vs CD stream except in the rarest > of cases (pure digital tones seem to get thwacked the worst). Have you tried > a 256kbps bit rate? > I have some music material where 128 is noticeable. (Lots of high-freq transient material.) Probably 160 or 256 would be nearly perfect, but I have found that I eventually learn the defects and artifacts of various processing schemes, and become intolerant. > > if this is boring for all you multimedia software experts, but I am a bit > > of a newbie in this stuff, finally PC hardware appears to start becoming > > really interesting for playing with all the ideas that this frustrated > > ex-EE has been having over the years... > > :) What sort of thing are you using this for John? > Many years ago, I did lots of EE things, and one of my interests is/has been the signal processing aspects of audio. Specifically, NR systems and audio processors (for broadcast/recording) and the like. Right now, I am re-educating myself by implementing the best single band audio compressor limiter possible :-). The next step will probably be to experiment with single-ended NR or signal restoration software. This is all just a diversion (I am deferring to the SMP crowd on the kernel right now, and hope to help them soon.) Mostly, I am resting the VM/VFS parts of my brain and going back to my roots for a while, reinvigorating my Z transform braincells. BTW, I have posted a few developmental copies of the SW (most being pretty fatally flawed, but still work better than anything else that I heard in my early days.) The effort is much easier than with DSP's due to speed and ease of working with FP on workstations (and infinitely easier than with analog electronics.) The PC is a great modeling tool, that might either have a target product implemented in analog (say with the neat analog devices parts), or digitally with A/D and DSPs... But, anyway, it is still fun to try some things that I have put aside for years. John From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 11:50:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08230 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08220 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id OAA06885; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:46:01 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:46:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199611241946.OAA06885@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: Joel Ray Holveck To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu In-reply-to: <199611240909.KAA09943@uriah.heep.sax.de> (message from J Wunsch on Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:09:41 +0100 (MET)) Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Makes me wonder: now that they _know_ the technology to perform the thermal recalibration in background, it doesn't cost the manufacturer any more. So why don't they simply ship all drives this way? Perhaps for the same reason that the company I work for will ship v1.1 or v2.0 of our software, depending on what price you want to pay. Software hoarding in another form. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 11:57:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08604 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexgen.HiWAAY.net (max12-67.HiWAAY.net [206.104.16.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08598 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by nexgen.HiWAAY.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA09457; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:57:15 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.5-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611240909.KAA09943@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:46:00 -0600 (CST) Organization: Amateur Radio N4HHE, Madison, AL. From: David Kelly To: J Wunsch Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 16:09:41 J Wunsch wrote: >>As Michael Smith wrote: > >> So, to deal with the "AV" crowd, whose hardware often can't handle >> being starved of data for several hundred ms, drive manufacturers made >> the recalibration process interruptible, so that data operations >> continue and recalibration occurs in the "background". > >Makes me wonder: now that they _know_ the technology to perform the >thermal recalibration in background, it doesn't cost the manufacturer >any more. So why don't they simply ship all drives this way? For the same reason a 17 jewel watch was better than a 14 jewel watch. For the same reason automakers change models every year, without changing very much. For the same reason IBM claimed the 8088 was 16 bit. For the same reason Cyrix calls their chip a 686 and labels it P166. For the same reason every couple of months your favorite laundry soap is labeled "new and improved." ... Marketing. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 14:56:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17080 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17066 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id JAA25651; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:25:22 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611242255.JAA25651@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: SCSI A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611241906.OAA06789@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from Joel Ray Holveck at "Nov 24, 96 02:06:44 pm" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel Ray Holveck) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:25:21 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck stands accused of saying: > > So, to deal with the "AV" crowd, whose hardware often can't handle > being starved of data for several hundred ms, drive manufacturers made > the recalibration process interruptible, so that data operations > continue and recalibration occurs in the "background". > > I thought that most SCSI devices released the bus during the entire > seek process, which was one of the advantages of SCSI over IDE to > begin with. Am I mistaken? No, you're just missing the issue; if the drive is busy doing recal, it will accept your transactions, but it won't perform them until recal is finished - ie., your command's data returns very late. If the drive is the source/destination of your A/V stream, then starvation/overrun is likely. By performing recal in the background, the drive's response is more-or-less as normal. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 24 19:00:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA29730 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slc91.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.91]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA29713 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id TAA00308; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:08:20 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:08:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199611250208.TAA00308@obie.softweyr.com> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: SCSI A/V drives (was Re: ATAPI) In-Reply-To: <199611232121.OAA19464@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199611231856.NAA03954@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <199611232121.OAA19464@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk % What are these A/V drives I see nowdays? Are these just % standard-issue SCSI drives trying to get on the 'multimedia' % bandwagon, or is there really something else to them? Terry Lambert writes: > They are standard drives which do not have an off cycl;e for thermal > recalibration. > > This makes them faster to dump an incoming stream of "A/V" data > and turn around for more data, but it makes them much more sensitive > to thermal variance. > > [...] The big difference, in terms of usage, is that you cannot take a normal disk drive and dump incoming video streams onto it. As the heads begin moving back and forth across the disk it will heat up. At this point, the disk will perform a thermal recalibration, costing several seconds, and your video stream will be broken. As Terry mentioned, for use as data disks, A/V disks will give you more consistent performance if kept at a constant operating termperature. If your machine experiences wide temperature variances, which most PCs, with their poor-quality cases, power supplies, and ventilation will, you may experience higher error rates. I recommend using A/V drives in large server systems with several disk drives and a good positive air flow through the case, especially for high usage filesystems like a news spool. For workstations, any gain is probably not worth the additional cost. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 06:58:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA22886 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA22868 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA23405 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:58:00 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:57:47 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA02393; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:57:34 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) id OAA07960; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:56:22 GMT To: Greg Lehey Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler), chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Drinking (Was: We want Perl!) References: <199611241213.NAA00496@freebie.lemis.de> From: Paul Richards Date: 25 Nov 1996 14:56:20 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:12:59 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <57viaunrzf.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > > a similar sentiment was once expressed as "let him.....the first > > stone." hhmmm...thhis could get rather heated. perhaps > > best left alone. hacking is so much less dangerous. > > You said it. It's interesting to note that this started due to my tongue in cheek reply to Terry's hangover cure which itself was derived from a discussion on whether we should include Perl. Funny how such inane debates can lead to such sensitive areas. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 08:38:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08980 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA08752 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pgiffuni@localhost) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.2/8.8.2) id LAA00276; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:39:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:39:32 -0500 (EST) From: Pedro Giffuni To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: (Fwd) [Fwd: !!]Does it work? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 11:43:56 +0000 From: gacevedo@openway.com.co To: Macevedo , Andres Guhl , jcaceved@pollux.javeriana.edu.co, aguhl@prosis.com, Juan Carlos Garay Cc: Benjamin Eaton Odell , Pedro Giffuni , Hernan Orjuela Subject: (Fwd) [Fwd: !!]Does it work? ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:44:26 -0800 From: Camilo Ramirez To: "Amy P. Singhatoraj" , Ana Citlalic Gonzalez Martmnez , Costas Chryssou , Diego Ramirez , "Diego Rosselli MD, MEd, LMG." , Emma Louise Catharina Bosloper , Felipe Ramirez , Guillermo Acevedo , Jorge Lizarazo , Mona Spiridon Subject: [Fwd: !!]Does it work? Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk by col1.telecom.com.co; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/04Oct96-1154AM) id AA05478; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:29:04 -0500 Received: from stanley.cs.ucl.ac.uk by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:23:13 +0000 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: A.Ballardie@cs.ucl.ac.uk, p.white@cs.ucl.ac.uk, c.perkins@cs.ucl.ac.uk, o.hodson@cs.ucl.ac.uk, n.kausar@cs.ucl.ac.uk, a.watson@cs.ucl.ac.uk, m.handley@cs.ucl.ac.uk, ucgbawi@ucl.ac.uk, bevis@apg.ph.ucl.ac.uk, rekghew@ucl.ac.uk, k.denman-johnson@ucl.ac.uk, SukerL@logica.com, saharcourt@meto.gov.uk, ncramire@col1.telecom.com.co Subject: !! Security: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:23:12 +0000 Message-Id: <9999.848672592@cs.ucl.ac.uk> From: Darren Harris ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: Received: from igate.vodafone.co.uk by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with UK SMTP id ; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:32:37 +0000 Received: by igate.vodafone.co.uk; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA12798; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:32:32 GMT Originally-To: Received: from baldor.vodafone_ip by mailgate.vodafone_ip; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/30Jan96-0952AM) id AA31757; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:32:32 GMT Received: from by baldor.vodafone_ip with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA086118744; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:32:24 GMT From: jeremy.thompson@vf.vodafone.co.uk X-Openmail-Hops: 1 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 10:31:52 +0000 Message-Id: Subject: Great sex guarenteed! Mime-Version: 1.0 To: martin.ashmore@vf.vodafone.co.uk, harold.bridgeman@vf.vodafone.co.uk, terry.haig@vf.vodafone.co.uk, paul.hamer@vf.vodafone.co.uk, tim.haynes@vf.vodafone.co.uk, joy.hunter@vf.vodafone.co.uk, d.harris@cs.ucl.ac.uk, pooleym@lgsh.logica.com, thompsoa@aston.ac.uk, K.T.Scarr@herts.ac.uk, chris.margetts@vf.vodafone.co.uk, chris.morgan@vf.vodafone.co.uk, david.robinson@vf.vodafone.co.uk, jeremy.russell@vf.vodafone.co.uk, kevin.tarling@vf.vodafone.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="openmail-part-01338757-00000001" - --openmail-part-01338757-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It could be true .... - --openmail-part-01338757-00000001 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) Great sex guarenteed! (fwd) FROM: e#f#mozley/unix////////RFC-822/e#f#mozley#a#lancaster#f#ac#f#uk@baldor TO: luntz_michael/engin2@baldor Content-Type: multipart/Mixed; boundary="openmail-part-01338757-00000002" - --openmail-part-01338757-00000002 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:35:33 +0000 (GMT) From: KERRY GIBSON To: Elaine Mozley Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) Great sex guarenteed! (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:32:23 +0000 From: VICTORIA REEVES <9627621@mull.sms.ed.ac.uk> To: k.a.gibson@Lancaster.ac.uk Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) Great sex guarenteed! (fwd) - ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "JOANNA MALLARD" <9623562@iona.sms.ed.ac.uk> Organization: Student Mail Service To: v.l.reeves@sms.ed.ac.uk Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:18:34 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) Great sex guarenteed! (fwd) Priority: normal - ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "GILLIAN SMITH" <9550773@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> To: "THOMAS SCARR" <9534264@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK>, )" <9545971@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK>, W.K.Nicklas@sms.ed.ac.uk, "MARK WHYTOCK" <9551375@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK>, "MARK WHYTOCK" <9551375@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK>, "MARK WHYTOCK" <9551375@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:51:53 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) Great sex guarenteed! (fwd) Priority: normal - ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Dizzy" <9543091@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> To: SK@dcs.ed.ac.uk, g.l.smith@sms.ed.ac.uk, Sorrel <9529959@EIGG.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:20:36 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) Great sex guarenteed! (fwd) Priority: SORRY, I HAD TO SEND THIS ON JUST IN CASE..... > WITH SEX ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE > > This paper has been sent to you for good luck. The original > has been worn out from having passed through the hands of so many > people. It had travelled around the world 70 times [Dear Reader: please > help keep this count current. If this letter falls into your hands after > just completing one more circuit of the world, please add one to the > count.] > The luck has now been sent to you. You will experience > great sex within four days of receiving this letter, provided you send it > on. Since the copy must tour the world, you must make ten copies and > send them to others. This is no joke. Send no money. Send copies > to people who need to get laid within 96 hours. > > After he passed this letter on, a Montana Spinach Control > Officer got his penis stuck in a cow-milking machine and had the > longest series of orgasms of his life. John Elliot tried to pick up > a prositute, but, because he broke the chain, was picked up by the > police instead. When they searched his home, they found magazines of > little boys which they showed to his neighbours. In a suburb of Paris, Don > Loray's trousers were ripped by an unsatisfied erection, 51 days > after failing to circulate the letter. However, before this happened, a > condom machine gave him three condoms for the price of one. (was > this the consolation prize?) > > Do note the following: Hebert Pudstrom received the chain > in 1953. He asked his secretary to make ten copies and send them out. > A few days later he encountered her in a red-light district making more > than he had every paid her at work. General George Patton, who sent > the letter on, saw what he thought was a quarter in the street. When > he bent down to pick it up, a beautiful woman in a miniskirt walked > by, and he got a great view. His aide, Colonel Roger Bumswiver, who did > not pass on the letter, tried to pick up a similar object but was > fucked up the ass by a desperate gay when he bent over. Heywood > Daddit, an unemployed chicken choker, received the letter and forgot > that it had to leave his hands within 96 hours. > > His wife then went bowling with his best friend and never > returned. Later, after finding the letter again, he mailed ten > copies. A few days later he got a wife and discovered that his old > wife, who he thought was wonderful, had made love to him like a dead > salmon for all these years! Alan Fairchild received the letter and, > not believing, threw the letter away. Nine days later he spilled hot > coffee in his crotch. > > In 1987 the letter received by a young woman in Texas was > faded and barely readable, so she did not realize that this paragraph > applied to her. She promised herself she would retype the letter and > send it on, but she put it aside to do later. She was plagued with > problems including herpes and other venereal diseases she contracted > in her futile attempts to find Mr. Right in a singles bar. The letter > did not leave her hands in 96 hours. She finally typed the letter and > found a man with a 10-inch penis. > > You must distribute at least ten copies within 96 hours > of receiving this letter. Those who do will find their love lives more > fulfilling. Those who do not will be doomed to one-night stands with > mechanical devices. > > See Ya Gillian - --openmail-part-01338757-00000002-- - --openmail-part-01338757-00000001-- ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 10:36:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA28822 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA28780 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:35:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA22823; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:19:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611251819.LAA22823@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:19:33 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611240424.OAA24031@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 24, 96 02:54:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > They are standard drives which do not have an off cycl;e for thermal > > recalibration. > > This is not strictly true. If they are actively being used, it's true. > > This makes them faster to dump an incoming stream of "A/V" data > > and turn around for more data, but it makes them much more sensitive > > to thermal variance. > > An incorrect conclusion, a conjunction and a falshehood. I'm just quoting the Seagate literature for the one I bought... 8-(. > > If you have a machine you leave on all the time, and you scsiformat > > after it has reached thermal equilibrium, and never remount after a > > crash until it is, again, at thermal equilibrium, and you maintain > > a standard thermal profile with consistent ventilation to a controlled > > environment in which the machine is placed, you can use them all day > > with no difference, except they are slightly faster over a bursty short > > haul. > > This is derived from dream-delirium facts, and should be tossed out > before either baby or bathwater. If I have equipment sensitive to thermal variance, and I limit the amount of thermal variance, then the equipment will not react. One way to do that is to not change power conditions (ie: leave the thing on all the time). Another is to not vary the amount of thermal dissipation the device gets over any given time period. Ie: keep a constant thermal conductivity in the air by controlling the humidity, and providing a constant temperature thermal sink into which the device can radiate (constant ventilation rate, constant temperature for incoming air, etc.). > > If you don't do any of these things, they are slightly faster over a > > bursty short haul, but they have a *significantly* decreased MTBF. > > This was probably derived from the above observations, but may be > true regardless. It is certainly speculation. Just like inadequately ventilated hawks don't go belly-up. 8-). > Some theory : > - harddisk platters are made of aluminium. > - aluminium expands and contracts corresponding to temperature. > - harddisks generate quite a lot of heat. > - disk control logic uses a variety of techniques for getting the head > to the right place on the disk as quickly as possible. One of > these techniques calls for guesstimating "about where" to sling > the head before actually looking at the disk to see where it is. > - in order to compensate for the expansion/contraction of the > platters, the drive logic performs a periodic operation known as > "thermal recalibration", where it hops the head across the disk > comparing where it thinks the head should have landed with where > it actually _did_ land, and updating it's idea of what is where > accordingly. > - in 'conventional' disk drives, this process is uninterruptible, > and can take hundreds of milliseconds. > > So, to deal with the "AV" crowd, whose hardware often can't handle > being starved of data for several hundred ms, drive manufacturers made > the recalibration process interruptible, so that data operations > continue and recalibration occurs in the "background". > > Even with the use of a servo surface, it is not practical to abandon > thermal recalibration at all. Sorry if "don't have an off cycle" implied this for you... it was not my intent. Obviously, you could not use the drive at all immediately after power on (before heat up -- before thermal equilibrium is established) if the driver were never calibrated and only correctly indexed at equilibrium. But the problem with doing writes during thermal slew is very real; there is always a window, especially if the drive is being actively used, where it will be "hotter than you are calibrated for". There is also the problem that, if the calibration is interrupted, the thermal slew is not radially constant, and therefore the calibration would be expotentially off, with a curve related to the difference between the format temperature and the temperature at the time of the operation. Since you don't format at a fixed temperature, the drive logic can not estimate this curve accurately in the case it has been interrupted. One potential fix would be to use a thermister to know the temperature at the time of the format, and calculate relative to that. I don't know any drives that have this. This still assumes that the heat dissipation is constant and invariant over time, or there is an increasing window for failure. So ventilation and constant temperature of incoming air flow for cooling are required to ensure best operation. The Seagate pamphlet suggested an external case, in fact. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 10:53:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00188 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:53:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00158 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA07362; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:52:17 -0800 (PST) To: Pedro Giffuni cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (Fwd) [Fwd: !!]Does it work? (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:39:32 EST." Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:52:17 -0800 Message-ID: <7360.848947937@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Uh. I think we're starting to stretch the charter of freebsd-chat just a little here, folks. :-) Is it time for a humor list? Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 11:26:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02730 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02706 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pgiffuni@localhost) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.2/8.8.2) id OAA03997; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:26:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:26:46 -0500 (EST) From: Pedro Giffuni To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: (Fwd) [Fwd: !!]Does it work? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <7360.848947937@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Uh. I think we're starting to stretch the charter of freebsd-chat > just a little here, folks. :-) > > Is it time for a humor list? > No...I promise I will behave myself (from next week on :) ). Pedro. > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 12:53:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08275 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08236 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA25905; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:52:38 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA22395; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:52:38 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id VAA05675; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:41:43 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611252041.VAA05675@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 2.2-ALPHA install failure To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:41:40 +0100 (MET) Cc: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3299E533.15FB7483@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Nov 25, 96 10:28:03 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (NB: moved to -chat, it's no longer technical contents. ;) As Julian Elischer wrote: > personally I NEVER EVER EVER use dedicated mode. > I find it too useful to have the 'dead area' before the > first partition, and hell it's only 32K usually! Well, and now that's the difference: i found it plain useless to waste these sectors for just nothing. :) (Nor would i ever have a need for `nextboot' or such, my systems can always boot off the primary disk.) It still bugs me that newfs (or better: UFS) is often wasting so many sectors at the end of a partition since it also still believes that disks have something like a uniform geometry that can be expressed in terms of cylinders, heads, and sectors... Btw., Julian, that's just the paradigm difference: things like nextboot, or the 32 KB gap after the MBR are certainly useful for playing games if it comes to more than just Unix on one machine. ``Dangerously dedicated'' mode is only for those who really never even think of something else than Unix; they don't have a need for a bloody DOS partition on the disk, nor for any geometry hassles (well, there are still enough of them caused by the BIOS braindamage), nor... It's just the same way Unix has always been. Both paradigms have a substantial need in our userbase, but both user groups are largely disjunctive. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 14:46:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16617 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16551 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:45:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id RAA10124; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:45:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:45:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199611252245.RAA10124@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: Joel Ray Holveck To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu In-reply-to: <199611242255.JAA25651@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:25:21 +1030 (CST)) Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So, to deal with the "AV" crowd, whose hardware often can't handle > being starved of data for several hundred ms, drive manufacturers made > the recalibration process interruptible, so that data operations > continue and recalibration occurs in the "background". > I thought that most SCSI devices released the bus during the entire > seek process, which was one of the advantages of SCSI over IDE to > begin with. Am I mistaken? No, you're just missing the issue; if the drive is busy doing recal, it will accept your transactions, but it won't perform them until recal is finished - ie., your command's data returns very late. Okay, understood... I hadn't realized that the recal was a time-consuming process. Why does the drive logic not continuously update the thermal expansion factor it uses, each time it seeks? From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 15:34:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA19335 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA19288 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:34:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id PAA10912 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous219.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.219]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA05206; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:17:18 +0100 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA00549; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:59:46 +0100 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:59:46 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199611252159.WAA00549@campa.panke.de> To: Rob Misiak-Rishaw Cc: freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: benchmark In-Reply-To: <199611200505.AAA23865@in-addr.arpa.com> References: <199611200505.AAA23865@in-addr.arpa.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Rob Misiak-Rishaw writes: >A customer of mine that I do consulting for is moving some of their services >like mail, web, and DNS from an ISP to their site. They plan to do all of >these on NT servers (even DNS -- bleh!). I tried to explain that some flavour >of UNIX would be a much better choice, but they think that UNIX is a dead >thing... I'm looking for benchmarks and other information (hard numbers, etc) >that I could present to them telling why it would be better for them to choose >FreeBSD (or even BSDI... hell, even Solaris is better than NT :) instead. BSDI has a WWW benchmark BSD/OS <-> NT, see http://www.bsdi.com Most www servers runs on Unix, see http://www.apache.org Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 15:35:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA19402 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA19388 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA23592; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:19:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611252319.QAA23592@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel Ray Holveck) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:19:29 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu In-Reply-To: <199611252245.RAA10124@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel Ray Holveck" at Nov 25, 96 05:45:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Okay, understood... I hadn't realized that the recal was a > time-consuming process. Why does the drive logic not continuously > update the thermal expansion factor it uses, each time it seeks? Because the thermal expansion fact varies radially based on the current expansion minus the expansion ath the time the drive was formatted. So it isn't constant across the whole disk surface as it would be if the track lines were parallel instead of concentric circles. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 16:49:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23689 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:49:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [204.214.4.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA23678 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.8.2/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id SAA23743; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:48:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <329A3E36.167EB0E7@hiwaay.net> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:47:50 -0600 From: Steve Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: wonderful demo References: <01IC9SRJHKYU9EDJ4P@MAIL-CLUSTER.PCY.MCI.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Emerald wrote: > > Are you interested in sending bulk e-mails? > I know of a great new program! > You can even test out the demo for FREE! > Send me an e-mail for more details. > > Emerald@earthstar.com Does anybody where this message is coming from and who there provider is? This is the third time today that I have received this same message and it is really p*ssing me off! Steve From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 18:09:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA27663 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA27648 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id MAA00521; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:37:53 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611260207.MAA00521@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611251819.LAA22823@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 25, 96 11:19:33 am" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:37:52 +1030 (CST) Cc: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > They are standard drives which do not have an off cycl;e for thermal > > > recalibration. > > > > This is not strictly true. > > If they are actively being used, it's true. Please note, I said "not strictly". Your claim was "an A/V drive does not perform thermal recal". My entire point was that you are _wrong_, even in your qualified assertion that A/V drives don't recal while they are busy. > I'm just quoting the Seagate literature for the one I bought... 8-(. I'm curious; which model? I have the ASA-II AV lit here, and you can probably chase the ASA-II and ASA-III papers down on their site. > > This was probably derived from the above observations, but may be > > true regardless. It is certainly speculation. > > Just like inadequately ventilated hawks don't go belly-up. 8-). That's "Barracudas", actually. I've run Hawk-series drives in all sorts of atrocious thermal environments, and as a rule they're quite happy with convection cooling. > But the problem with doing writes during thermal slew is very real; there > is always a window, especially if the drive is being actively used, where > it will be "hotter than you are calibrated for". This is what sector index information and guard tracks are for. Look, as I tried to make it very clear, thermal recal is used to update an approximiation table that allows the servo logic to guess at a suitable destination. Once the head arrives at "should be", the servo centres between guard tracks (if necessary) and looks for a sector index to find out where it is. If the recal information is completely stuffed, then seek performance will fall off due to extra relocation overhead. The drive will _NOT_ fail because of this. > There is also the problem that, if the calibration is interrupted, the > thermal slew is not radially constant, and therefore the calibration > would be expotentially off, with a curve related to the difference > between the format temperature and the temperature at the time of the > operation. Terry, have you ever worked with drive firmware, or for that matter with anything involving moving parts at all? The simplest recal procedure might look for the inside and outside track locations, and linearly interpolate a given track between those two extremities, but first-year engineering students don't get employed by major drive manufacturers to write that sort of code. At the very least, the recal would maintain a table of partial increments across the radius, with the increment size such that under normal variance conditions the possible integer linear interpolation error between two points would amount to at most a single track. [... much waffle elided ...] But you're still failing to accept the basic point; A/V drives _do_ perform thermal recal, as it is essential to maintaining drive performance. However, the recal process can be preempted by incoming data transactions. In all but the most extreme load cases, the servo is going to find it has a few milliseconds free every now to carry on with the recal, and obviously there must be provision for degrading the drive's performance slightly in order to maintain the recal information. Ever wondered why the performance figures for A/V drives are slightly different from those for the "non A/V" version in some cases? Stick to filesystems. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 18:12:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA27818 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:12:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA27781 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id MAA00537; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:40:18 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611260210.MAA00537@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611252245.RAA10124@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from Joel Ray Holveck at "Nov 25, 96 05:45:03 pm" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel Ray Holveck) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:40:17 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck stands accused of saying: > No, you're just missing the issue; if the drive is busy doing recal, > it will accept your transactions, but it won't perform them until > recal is finished - ie., your command's data returns very late. > > Okay, understood... I hadn't realized that the recal was a > time-consuming process. Why does the drive logic not continuously > update the thermal expansion factor it uses, each time it seeks? Some do; it's an expensive process though, and often servo logic doesn't have the grunt for it (think 'low cost'). -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 18:26:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA28841 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA28811 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA08829; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:26:18 -0800 (PST) To: Steve Price cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: wonderful demo In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:47:50 CST." <329A3E36.167EB0E7@hiwaay.net> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:26:18 -0800 Message-ID: <8827.848975178@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Already talked with their upstream ISP this morning. Their account is gone, DNS for earthstar.com has been terminated and Sprint has frozen their account. End of story for Emerald. Jordan > Emerald wrote: > > > > Are you interested in sending bulk e-mails? > > I know of a great new program! > > You can even test out the demo for FREE! > > Send me an e-mail for more details. > > > > Emerald@earthstar.com > > Does anybody where this message is coming from and who > there provider is? This is the third time today that I > have received this same message and it is really p*ssing > me off! > > Steve From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 19:30:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA02681 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:30:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA02614 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA23966; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:12:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611260312.UAA23966@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: A/V drives To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:12:38 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611260207.MAA00521@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 26, 96 12:37:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But you're still failing to accept the basic point; A/V drives _do_ > perform thermal recal, as it is essential to maintaining drive > performance. However, the recal process can be preempted by incoming > data transactions. So is it being done while it has been preempted? Or does preempted have some new meaning I'm unfamiliar with? Look, I know that the seek performance will fall off it it fails to recal., and I know that it will have to find it's ass with both hands (potentially using the guard tracks to do so). And I know that increased head hysteresis will shorten the average time to failure, as the AV drive, having preempted its recal, may end up being a bit more off than a drive that completed recal without preemption. > Ever wondered why the performance figures for A/V drives are > slightly different from those for the "non A/V" version in some > cases? No. One of my major claims was that they had better performance for streaming data (if you read the start of this thread at all), and that they made some tradeoffs to get it. I personally consider some of the tradeoffs to be "iffy". > Stick to filesystems. Natch. And place them on drives... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 19:47:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA04179 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA04148 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:47:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id OAA01178; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:15:12 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611260345.OAA01178@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611260312.UAA23966@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 25, 96 08:12:38 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:15:12 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > But you're still failing to accept the basic point; A/V drives _do_ > > perform thermal recal, as it is essential to maintaining drive > > performance. However, the recal process can be preempted by incoming > > data transactions. > > So is it being done while it has been preempted? Or does preempted > have some new meaning I'm unfamiliar with? Ok, let's step back a sec : conventional drive : recal is atomic operation, transactions postponed until recal complete. "A/V" drive : recal is interruptible operation, can be suspended to allow transactions to complete. If an A/V drive is doing a recal when a transaction arrives, it saves the recal context, processes the transaction, and then returns to the recal. In most cases, even with back-to-back transactions coming in on the interface, the servo will have enough idle time to keep up with recal. Naturally the scheduling algorithm is designed to ensure that the recal process gets _some_ time even if the drive is saturated. > (potentially using the guard tracks to do so). And I know that > increased head hysteresis will shorten the average time to failure, > as the AV drive, having preempted its recal, may end up being a bit > more off than a drive that completed recal without preemption. I haven't seen or inferred any evidence that suggests that small additional amounts of head traversal significantly affect MTBF; if this is your only point, why not make that? > No. One of my major claims was that they had better performance for > streaming data (if you read the start of this thread at all), and that > they made some tradeoffs to get it. I personally consider some of the > tradeoffs to be "iffy". I'm aware of this, however the tradeoffs that you described were _not_ the tradeoffs being made, and I'm inclined not to accept the conclusions that you're drawing from your claims. My only real gripe was you spreading misinformation 8) > > Stick to filesystems. > > Natch. And place them on drives... How many drivers on the road understand automatic transmissions? > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 19:55:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA04848 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA04811 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA24066; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:38:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611260338.UAA24066@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: A/V drives To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:38:53 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611260345.OAA01178@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 26, 96 02:15:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > (potentially using the guard tracks to do so). And I know that > > increased head hysteresis will shorten the average time to failure, > > as the AV drive, having preempted its recal, may end up being a bit > > more off than a drive that completed recal without preemption. > > I haven't seen or inferred any evidence that suggests that small > additional amounts of head traversal significantly affect MTBF; if this > is your only point, why not make that? My point was an MTBF difference. I really didn't care where it came from, so I didn't make a specific point about *how* it occurred, only that it occurred. > > No. One of my major claims was that they had better performance for > > streaming data (if you read the start of this thread at all), and that > > they made some tradeoffs to get it. I personally consider some of the > > tradeoffs to be "iffy". > > I'm aware of this, however the tradeoffs that you described were _not_ > the tradeoffs being made, and I'm inclined not to accept the conclusions > that you're drawing from your claims. My only real gripe was you > spreading misinformation 8) Heh. So we should all rush out and buy on A/V drives? Well, it would mean less wait for non-A/V drivers for me, so I *guess* it's OK... ;-). > > > Stick to filesystems. > > > > Natch. And place them on drives... > > How many drivers on the road understand automatic transmissions? All of them who drive automatics AND deserve a license? 8-) 8-). People can code C or C++ without an understanding of the code the compiler will generate from the source they give it... it is my contention (for this particular example) that their code will run slower than code written by someone who understands what the computer is going to end up doing with the code. I think it might be time to license people to code... "coding without a license... that's a $500 fine..." 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 19:55:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA04853 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:55:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA04812 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:55:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id WAA10790; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:54:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:54:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199611260354.WAA10790@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: Joel Ray Holveck To: terry@lambert.org CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu In-reply-to: <199611252319.QAA23592@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:19:29 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Okay, understood... I hadn't realized that the recal was a > time-consuming process. Why does the drive logic not continuously > update the thermal expansion factor it uses, each time it seeks? Because the thermal expansion fact varies radially based on the current expansion minus the expansion ath the time the drive was formatted. So it isn't constant across the whole disk surface as it would be if the track lines were parallel instead of concentric circles. So the calibration factor is actually a function which can't be predicted by a single point. Fair enough, although it would seem that the calculations could be made from the data acquired during the normal seeks, whether it's a single factor, multiple coefficients, or a lookup table. Of course, I'm talking about things I don't know, but then again, I'm talking about things I want to understand. Thanks, Joel From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 20:06:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA05680 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA05618 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id XAA10823; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:03:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:03:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199611260403.XAA10823@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: Joel Ray Holveck To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu In-reply-to: <199611260210.MAA00537@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:40:17 +1030 (CST)) Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Okay, understood... I hadn't realized that the recal was a > time-consuming process. Why does the drive logic not continuously > update the thermal expansion factor it uses, each time it seeks? Some do; it's an expensive process though, and often servo logic doesn't have the grunt for it (think 'low cost'). Expensive in terms of time (and where is it spent? Calculations or head seeks?) or in terms of circuitry or what? Is this type of logic usually handled by a controller with a PROM or by custom circuitry? Thanks, Joel From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 20:12:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA06165 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA06131 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id OAA01379; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:40:05 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611260410.OAA01379@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611260403.XAA10823@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from Joel Ray Holveck at "Nov 25, 96 11:03:52 pm" To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel Ray Holveck) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:40:05 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck stands accused of saying: > > Okay, understood... I hadn't realized that the recal was a > > time-consuming process. Why does the drive logic not continuously > > update the thermal expansion factor it uses, each time it seeks? > Some do; it's an expensive process though, and often servo logic > doesn't have the grunt for it (think 'low cost'). > > Expensive in terms of time (and where is it spent? Calculations or > head seeks?) or in terms of circuitry or what? Time is the big issue. Compute time for the servo controller, and depending on design, possibly also dwell time for the head (some servos may sweep across the track in order to locate the precise centrepoint between guard tracks). > Is this type of logic usually handled by a controller with a PROM or > by custom circuitry? That varies between manufacturers. Seagate use a multiprocessor architecture with a 16-bit micro doing the bus and protocol stuff and an 8-bit micro running the servo. Quantum use a single micro and a couple of custom blobs on the drives of theirs I've seen. > Joel -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 22:08:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA12745 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:08:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA12724 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12789; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:07:54 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199611260607.IAA12789@grackle.grondar.za> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Steve Price cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: wonderful demo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:07:53 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Steve Price wrote: > Emerald wrote: > > > > Are you interested in sending bulk e-mails? > > I know of a great new program! > > You can even test out the demo for FREE! > > Send me an e-mail for more details. > > > > Emerald@earthstar.com > > Does anybody where this message is coming from and who > there provider is? This is the third time today that I > have received this same message and it is really p*ssing > me off! X-mailer: Floodgate Pro 5.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Comments: Authenticated sender is <10ehnmugs6l6@mail14.MCI2000.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 03:04:37 -0500 (EST) From: Emerald I believe I can help - the Comments: line is pretty authorative. Pegasus mail has a similar line X-authenticated-sender:, which you can trust. The user/site are the actual login and username that this jerk used to get his connection from his ISP. I am in the ISP business - we use these lines too with great effect when our users misbehave, M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 22:11:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA12846 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA12839 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12806; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:09:56 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199611260609.IAA12806@grackle.grondar.za> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Steve Price , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: wonderful demo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:09:55 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > Already talked with their upstream ISP this morning. Their account is > gone, DNS for earthstar.com has been terminated and Sprint has frozen > their account. End of story for Emerald. These pricks were using one of our machines at work to spam our users. I am delighted to hear this! M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 25 23:28:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA17668 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:28:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA17657 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA11246; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:27:39 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Murray cc: Steve Price , chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: wonderful demo In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:07:53 +0200." <199611260607.IAA12789@grackle.grondar.za> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:27:38 -0800 Message-ID: <11243.848993258@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Comments: Authenticated sender is <10ehnmugs6l6@mail14.MCI2000.com> > ... > I believe I can help - the Comments: line is pretty > authorative. Pegasus mail has a similar line X-authenticated-sender:, > which you can trust. The user/site are the actual login and username that > this jerk used to get his connection from his ISP. > > I am in the ISP business - we use these lines too with great effect when our > users misbehave, I might also add that the administrative contact for MCI2000.com is Sue Spoddig, and she quite impressed me by: A) Taking care of this in record time, despite having over 90,000 subscribers. B) Returning my phone call promptly, with a full synposis of events and her actions to contain this jerk. C) Just being generally nice and good-humored about it despite having already received 600 complaints about this individual in the previous 24 hours alone. I've dealt with a *lot* of ISPs over the last year or so and have to say that Sue's response to this is one which will stand out for a long time - if all the ISPs I dealt with were this conscientious, I'd be one happy camper. The moral of this story is, of course, that you (not you, Mark, the generic "you" :-) shouldn't always be too quick to beat up on the ISP at the first sign of trouble. Some ISPs are pure idiots and wouldn't know an AUP if it bit them on the ass, getting all defensive when you ask them to police their own user base. Others, like Sue, are hard working and long suffering individuals who should receive our full support in combating spammers. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 00:51:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28376 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA28363 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:51:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA17882 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:51:41 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA02739 for chat@freefall.freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:51:40 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id JAA10164 for chat@freefall.freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:30:14 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611260830.JAA10164@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: wonderful demo To: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:30:14 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <8827.848975178@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 25, 96 06:26:18 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Already talked with their upstream ISP this morning. Their account is > gone, DNS for earthstar.com has been terminated and Sprint has frozen > their account. End of story for Emerald. Wow! Earthstar is really gone? I couldn't believe it... (I've complained to SprintLink recently, and the guy there told me all the sad story.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 05:19:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA03013 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA03008 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:19:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from spyder.inna.net (jamie@spyder.inna.net [206.151.66.4]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA06221; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:22:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:24:29 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Michael Smith cc: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611260345.OAA01178@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > > How many drivers on the road understand automatic transmissions? > I do... Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 08:42:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12075 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA12065 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <17090(5)>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:42:02 PST Received: by crevenia.parc.xerox.com id <177711>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:41:46 -0800 From: Bill Fenner To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ARGH! Message-Id: <96Nov26.084146pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:41:43 PST Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So, I was really psyched on Friday when I got my new Seagate Medalist as a replacement for my failing Quantum 1080S. I paused briefly at the "Refurbished" sticker on the static bag, but figured, "it's an RMA, they're not going to send me a new drive.." Well, I sure wish they did. This morning, my alarm ("at 7:15 mixer line 50") didn't wake me up. I woke up around 7:45 to a few timeout messages on the console and a hung system. "Darned 2.2-ALPHA," I thought. I rebooted, and the SCSI BIOS hung while trying to probe the drive. I turned the machine off and on, and the new drive spun up and then started going CRUNCHACRUNCH CLATTERCLATTER. Hooray. So Seagate is going to send me another drive, I might have it by next week, and who knows if this one is going to last more than 3 days either. Sigh, back to Windows NT... Bill From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 09:53:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA15753 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA15747 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:53:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from bebox (hamby2.lightside.net [207.67.176.18]) by covina.lightside.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA21577 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:53:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:53:37 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby Message-Id: <199611261753.JAA21577@covina.lightside.com> To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 10:11:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16498 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16492 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from bebox (hamby2.lightside.net [207.67.176.18]) by covina.lightside.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA22022; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:11:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611261811.KAA22022@covina.lightside.com> To: Bill Fenner Subject: Re: ARGH! Cc: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Nov 96 10:10:27 From: "Jake Hamby" Reply-To: jehamby@lightside.com X-Mailer: BeMail [version 1.1] Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >So, I was really psyched on Friday when I got my new Seagate Medalist as a >replacement for my failing Quantum 1080S. I paused briefly at the >"Refurbished" sticker on the static bag, but figured, "it's an RMA, >they're not going to send me a new drive.." > >Well, I sure wish they did. This morning, my alarm ("at 7:15 mixer line 50") >didn't wake me up. I woke up around 7:45 to a few timeout messages on the >console and a hung system. "Darned 2.2-ALPHA," I thought. I rebooted, >and the SCSI BIOS hung while trying to probe the drive. I turned the machine >off and on, and the new drive spun up and then started going CRUNCHACRUNCH >CLATTERCLATTER. Hooray. > >So Seagate is going to send me another drive, I might have it by next week, >and who knows if this one is going to last more than 3 days either. > >Sigh, back to Windows NT... Obviously, the solution is to stick Windows NT on the Seacrate drive and you'll have killed two birds with one stone... :-) -- Jake From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 10:15:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16658 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16652 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA25292; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:58:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611261758.KAA25292@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joel Ray Holveck) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:58:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.org, smut@clem-162.dorms.tamu.edu In-Reply-To: <199611260354.WAA10790@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel Ray Holveck" at Nov 25, 96 10:54:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So the calibration factor is actually a function which can't be > predicted by a single point. Fair enough, although it would seem that > the calculations could be made from the data acquired during the > normal seeks, whether it's a single factor, multiple coefficients, > or a lookup table. It *could* be predicted, if they stored a thermister value at format time. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 15:03:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06170 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06162 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id JAA04660; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:32:40 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611262302.JAA04660@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611261758.KAA25292@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 26, 96 10:58:34 am" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:32:39 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > So the calibration factor is actually a function which can't be > > predicted by a single point. Fair enough, although it would seem that > > the calculations could be made from the data acquired during the > > normal seeks, whether it's a single factor, multiple coefficients, > > or a lookup table. > > It *could* be predicted, if they stored a thermister value at format > time. Presuming you could get an accurate enough sensor close enough to the platters, and presuming that their expansion is linear across the disk surface. Only you can't, and it isn't. And it's "thermistor", or in the case where you're trying to be accurate it's a PT100 or a thermocouple. 8) > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 15:23:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03976 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03905 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:37:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA12632 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA29768 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:50:02 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id TAA24584 for chat@freefall.freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:49:35 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.3/keltia-uucp-2.9) id TAA11892; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:46:16 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:46:15 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: wonderful demo References: <8827.848975178@time.cdrom.com> <199611260830.JAA10164@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.51 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2738 In-Reply-To: <199611260830.JAA10164@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Nov 26, 1996 09:30:14 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to J Wunsch: > Wow! Earthstar is really gone? I couldn't believe it... (I've > complained to SprintLink recently, and the guy there told me all the > sad story.) They have been cut off. They plan to keep on of course :-( -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 15:57:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09733 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:57:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09727 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA14310; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:57:24 -0800 (PST) To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) cc: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: wonderful demo In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:46:15 +0100." Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:57:23 -0800 Message-ID: <14308.849052643@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > They have been cut off. They plan to keep on of course :-( How did you come by this little fact? Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 16:31:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11897 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11887 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA14265 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:14:48 -0800 Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA04947; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:40:05 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611270010.KAA04947@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611262331.QAA25852@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 26, 96 04:31:02 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:40:05 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > Actually, the coefficient of radial expansion for various temperates > could be calculated from knowledge of the materials inside the box to > which you attach your electronics. > > This is something a manufacturer should already know. It makes for a pretty textbook problem, yes. In practice, it's not as simple as you'd like to make out. There are any number of potential heat sources, and their location and effects on the geometry of the unit are best determined by measuring the actual item that you're interested in. If you were correct, drives would have $0.25 temperature sensors and never need to perform thermal recal. > The problem in prediction comes from not knowing the temperature at > the time of format. No, the problem in prediction is much simpler; it's practically impossible. You have to account for the temperature coefficients of the platters, the actuator mechanism, the chassis and the variance in magnetic field strength of the actuator magnet. Given that the temperatures of each of these items are not necessarily directly related to any measurable quantity, you are up shit creek before you even start. > As to putting the thing close enough to the platters: ugh. That would > be a problem, assuming the actual and ambient temperatures were inequal. Aha, the light dawns. Perhaps we'll make a practical engineer out of you yet 8) > Anyway, too much on this subject. 8-). Perhaps; I'm still waiting for someone who actually works for a drive manufacturer to pop up and chew _me_ out on a technicality 8) > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 16:35:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA12102 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA12088 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0vSXGo-0008taC; Tue, 26 Nov 96 15:50 PST Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA25852; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:31:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611262331.QAA25852@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:31:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611262302.JAA04660@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 27, 96 09:32:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ ... thermal expansion ... ] > > It *could* be predicted, if they stored a thermister value at format > > time. > > Presuming you could get an accurate enough sensor close enough to the > platters, and presuming that their expansion is linear across the > disk surface. > > Only you can't, and it isn't. And it's "thermistor", or in the case > where you're trying to be accurate it's a PT100 or a thermocouple. 8) Actually, the coefficient of radial expansion for various temperates could be calculated from knowledge of the materials inside the box to which you attach your electronics. This is something a manufacturer should already know. The problem is knowing location along an expotential curve. The slope of the curve is relative to the baseline, which you would establish at the time you formatted. So it *is* possible to predict where a radial line will be given a known coefficient, the current temperature, where it was, and the temperate at the time you determined where it was. The problem in prediction comes from not knowing the temperature at the time of format. Even if you didn't know the temperature at the current time, if you knew the temperature at the time of format, you could locate a post expansion known track, and use it to interpolate the curve slope, with knowledge that the expotential is radially bound. This would be a one track thermal recal instead of a whole disk thermal recal, since you could get your temperature from knowing where you thought you were vs. where you actually were. In theory, you could look at the first track, the last track, and some track in between (hopefully close to the first track) and interpolate the curve (and thus the location of the other tracks) from there. This would require a great deal of "embedded" knowledge about the properties of the physical disk, and the calculation would probably take too long without a known baseline. With a known baseline, any track you read could, in theory, give you enough information for a full recal. As to putting the thing close enough to the platters: ugh. That would be a problem, assuming the actual and ambient temperatures were inequal. Probably you'd have to be so exacting about thermal emissibity, and therefore manufacturing tolerances, that it wouldn't be worth it. Never mind that somm weeine out there will end up reformatting the thing at some unknown temperature, right out of the box, so the damn thing heats up as the format progresses, drastically skewing the baseline value. 8-(. Better to just do the recal, if your equipment isn't going to be used in known conditions. If you are going to engage in preemption, and it lasts long enough to actually matter, then you would be well off to format the drive at operational temperature, and maintain the temperature at the same value as you use it. So even if it matters in theory, there is no longer any practical consequence. Anyway, too much on this subject. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 26 16:47:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA12857 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA12852 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA26056; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:30:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611270030.RAA26056@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:30:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611270010.KAA04947@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 27, 96 10:40:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As to putting the thing close enough to the platters: ugh. That would > > be a problem, assuming the actual and ambient temperatures were inequal. > > Aha, the light dawns. Perhaps we'll make a practical engineer out of > you yet 8) I prefer to remain a hand-waving physicist. Eventually, we will be able to move things around and build them, one atom at a time, and atomically precise to boot. Then we can bypass this whole messy "engineering" thing altogether... 8-). Terry "it's not chemistry, it's physics" Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 02:22:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA09517 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA09494 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA17929 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:56:21 -0800 Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA12681; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:52:32 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA24269; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:52:31 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id JAA25882; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:21:51 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611270821.JAA25882@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Destroy Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:21:51 +0100 (MET) Cc: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <329BBEB8.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov> from Sean Kelly at "Nov 26, 96 09:08:24 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Sean Kelly wrote: > I realize that replacing sendmail and hanging your machine with > ScrollLock is all very interesting, but is anyone looking at getting rid > of these annoying messages from > Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com? Replace their sendmail, and hang their machine with ScrollLock. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 02:29:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA10112 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA10106 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wwong@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.8.3/8.6.11) id CAA19787; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:27:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Wong Message-Id: <199611271027.CAA19787@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:27:52 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611270030.RAA26056@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Nov 26, 96 05:30:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I didn't know you are a physicist. Where did you graduate? What degree(s)? ... If you don't mind me asking. :) > > > > As to putting the thing close enough to the platters: ugh. That would > > > be a problem, assuming the actual and ambient temperatures were inequal. > > > > Aha, the light dawns. Perhaps we'll make a practical engineer out of > > you yet 8) > > > > I prefer to remain a hand-waving physicist. Eventually, we will be > able to move things around and build them, one atom at a time, and > atomically precise to boot. > > Then we can bypass this whole messy "engineering" thing altogether... > 8-). > > > Terry "it's not chemistry, it's physics" Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > William T. Wong Network Analyst, Assistant Cal State University, San Bernardino Phone: (909) 880-7281 email: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 07:30:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA24803 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA24793 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:30:45 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vSlvJ-000Qs0C; Wed, 27 Nov 96 16:29 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id OAA02263; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:41:41 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611271341.OAA02263@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: wonderful demo In-Reply-To: <14308.849052643@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 26, 96 03:57:23 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:41:41 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: >> They have been cut off. They plan to keep on of course :-( > > How did you come by this little fact? Don't ask. Did any of you guys get a new spam from a user ID called stopmail@slip.net? It looks *very* familiar. Here's an excerpt: > Press reply for removal > > As Featured in BUSINESS WEEK MAGAZINE > & ENTREPENURE MAGAZINE ..December issue. > > E-MAIL WORKS v3.1a FREE!! WITH PURCHACE OF SECURE > BULK E-MAILING AND WEB SITE HOSTING SERVICES!!!!!!!!free > > That's Right!! When you order our secure bulk e mail hosting services > you get the best & most advanced bulk e-mail package for FREE. This product sold for $499 is now free!!!!. Not just a d > emo, the fully functional version!!! > > Just e mail your request to hotsale1@slip.net Well, at least they gave me a chance to be removed, so I replied, and got a message back from abuse@slip.net saying that the user had been permanently banned from using slipnet. Looks like the ISPs are generally reacting faster to this junk. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 07:36:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA25276 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA25263 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:36:07 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vSlvJ-000QrvC; Wed, 27 Nov 96 16:29 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id OAA02251; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:37:03 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611271337.OAA02251@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611270010.KAA04947@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Nov 27, 96 10:40:05 am" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:37:03 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: >> >> Actually, the coefficient of radial expansion for various temperates >> could be calculated from knowledge of the materials inside the box to >> which you attach your electronics. >> >> This is something a manufacturer should already know. > > It makes for a pretty textbook problem, yes. In practice, it's not as > simple as you'd like to make out. There are any number of potential > heat sources, It's not just the heat source, it's the relative effect of the surroundings. You can't rely on all the drive to have the same temperature. Stack two or morea identical drives one above the other in a standard "tower" enclosure, and though each might have the same average temperature, the distribution is different for each drive. > and their location and effects on the geometry of the unit are best > determined by measuring the actual item that you're interested in. Agreed. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 09:13:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29778 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from gptmail.globalpac.com (GPTMAIL.GLOBALPAC.COM [206.170.230.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA29773 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:13:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([206.170.230.145]) by gptmail.globalpac.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-13502) with SMTP id AAA127 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:16:58 -0800 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:11:01 -0800 (PST) From: bomber@globalpac.com (bomber) X-Sender: bomber@localhost To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: wonderful spam In-Reply-To: <199611271341.OAA02263@freebie.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Did any of you guys get a new spam from a user ID called > stopmail@slip.net? It looks *very* familiar. Here's an excerpt: > > > Press reply for removal > > > > As Featured in BUSINESS WEEK MAGAZINE > > & ENTREPENURE MAGAZINE ..December issue. > > > > E-MAIL WORKS v3.1a FREE!! WITH PURCHACE OF SECURE > > BULK E-MAILING AND WEB SITE HOSTING SERVICES!!!!!!!!free > > > > That's Right!! When you order our secure bulk e mail hosting services > > you get the best & most advanced bulk e-mail package for FREE. This product sold for $499 is now free!!!!. Not just a d > > emo, the fully functional version!!! I did too...but I only post to the redhat linux mailing list... From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 09:17:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00123 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from diamond.xtalwind.net (diamond.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00101 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (pa1dsp10.x31.infi.net [206.27.115.34]) by diamond.xtalwind.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id MAA04099; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:17:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:17:30 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@localhost To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: wonderful demo In-Reply-To: <199611271341.OAA02263@freebie.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > Did any of you guys get a new spam from a user ID called > stopmail@slip.net? It looks *very* familiar. Here's an excerpt: Did you happen to check the headers? Mine was forwarded by worldnet.att.net. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@onyx.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 09:34:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01010 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:34:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00991 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:34:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01585 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:33:07 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id SAA08236 for chat@freefall.freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:32:14 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.3/keltia-uucp-2.9) id HAA09367; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:35:27 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:35:26 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: wonderful demo References: <14308.849052643@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2738 In-Reply-To: <14308.849052643@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Nov 26, 1996 15:57:23 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jordan K. Hubbard: > > They have been cut off. They plan to keep on of course :-( > > How did you come by this little fact? See news.admin.net-abuse.usenet (or misc) for details. I saw an interview of him forwarded by a friend of mine. I'll see if I still have it and send to you. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 09:49:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01686 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:49:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01647 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA16277 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:49:09 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vSo4z-000QrIC; Wed, 27 Nov 96 18:47 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id SAA02680; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:45:50 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611271745.SAA02680@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: wonderful demo In-Reply-To: from jack at "Nov 27, 96 12:17:30 pm" To: jack@diamond.xtalwind.net (jack) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:45:50 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk jack writes: > On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Did any of you guys get a new spam from a user ID called >> stopmail@slip.net? It looks *very* familiar. Here's an excerpt: > > Did you happen to check the headers? Of course :-) I even kept the message just in case. > Mine was forwarded by worldnet.att.net. Mine too. Here they are: > From jiuyy@worldnet.att.net Wed Nov 27 14:08:44 1996 > Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) with SMTP > id NAA02084 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:30:49 +0100 (MET) > Received: from mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net by casparc.ppp.net with smtp > (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vSj8Q-000I9OC; Wed, 27 Nov 96 13:30 MET > Received: from Default ([153.35.21.105]) by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net > (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AOH9350; > Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:13:49 +0000 > From: stopmai1@slip.net > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:15:22 PST > Subject: Free Software > Message-ID: <19961127094653.AOH9350@Default> From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 10:06:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02635 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:06:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA02630 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:06:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA27605; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:50:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611271750.KAA27605@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu (William Wong) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:50:10 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611271027.CAA19787@wiley.csusb.edu> from "William Wong" at Nov 27, 96 02:27:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I didn't know you are a physicist. Where did you graduate? What degree(s)? > ... If you don't mind me asking. :) I'm a physicist, an applied mathematician, and a computer scientist. I'm a couple of quarters away from degrees in history, philosopy, and English, too (I know, I'm ecclectic). I attended the University of Utah and Weber State University (Weber State College at the time). I originally wanted to go for a PhD in high energy physics, but was seduced by the dark side of computational physics (computer science). Since we're doing biographical data, my hero is Buckaroo Banzai. 8-). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 12:41:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10737 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:41:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10732 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA10099; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:41:06 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: wonderful demo In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:41:41 +0100." <199611271341.OAA02263@freebie.lemis.de> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:41:06 -0800 Message-ID: <10097.849127266@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Don't ask. > > Did any of you guys get a new spam from a user ID called > stopmail@slip.net? It looks *very* familiar. Here's an excerpt: Yes, it's Stanford Wallace again. See the last issue of Wired. :-( Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 13:05:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12340 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12335 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10250; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:04:22 -0800 (PST) To: andrew@pubnix.net cc: Joe Greco , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Strange behaviour of a box. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:36:06 EST." Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:04:22 -0800 Message-ID: <10248.849128662@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Thanks, and have a great Thanksgiving.. > > Regards, (had our thanksgiving a month ago) Wow, you guys have a holiday commemorating the exploitation and subsequent extermination of Canada's indiginous population too? ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 13:19:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA13114 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13109 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA00546 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:20:27 -0800 Received: from Bitch.Melmac.org (ulf@Bitch.Melmac.org [207.90.181.42]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA08721; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Bitch.Melmac.org (8.8.3/8.7.6) id NAA00905; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:16:55 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199611272116.NAA00905@Bitch.Melmac.org> Subject: Re: wonderful demo To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:16:55 -0800 (PST) Cc: grog@lemis.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <10097.849127266@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 27, 96 12:41:06 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Don't ask. > > > > Did any of you guys get a new spam from a user ID called > > stopmail@slip.net? It looks *very* familiar. Here's an excerpt: > > Yes, it's Stanford Wallace again. See the last issue of Wired. :-( > > Jordan > Yep, I got one. But as I look at the headres, it is definatly not coming from Slip.net: >From jiuyy@worldnet.att.net Tue Nov 26 20:23:44 1996 Received: from mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (ns.worldnet.att.net [204.127.129.1]) b y DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA06706 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from Default ([153.35.21.105]) by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AEO19770; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:50:20 +0000 Ulf. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Lamb Art Internet Services | http://www.Lamb.net/ | http://www.Alameda.net From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 13:50:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14771 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from guardian.fortress.org (fortress.org [199.84.158.128]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14766 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from andrew@localhost) by guardian.fortress.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA26266; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:52:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:52:12 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Webster Reply-To: andrew@pubnix.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Joe Greco , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Strange behaviour of a box. In-Reply-To: <10248.849128662@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Thanks, and have a great Thanksgiving.. > > > > Regards, (had our thanksgiving a month ago) > > Wow, you guys have a holiday commemorating the exploitation and > subsequent extermination of Canada's indiginous population too? ;-) > Yeah, because it gets cold here sooner, we get stuffed sooner. Mmmmmm stuuuufing Andrew Webster andrew@pubnix.net PubNIX Montreal Connected to the world Branche au monde P.O. Box 147 Cote Saint Luc, Quebec H4V 2Y3 tel 514.990.5911 http://www.pubnix.net fax 514.990.9443 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 14:12:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16152 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16143 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id RAA16800; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:12:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:12:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199611272212.RAA16800@hill.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: Joel Ray Holveck To: grog@lemis.de CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199611271341.OAA02263@freebie.lemis.de> (message from Greg Lehey on Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:41:41 +0100 (MET)) Subject: Re: wonderful demo Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Did any of you guys get a new spam from a user ID called stopmail@slip.net? It looks *very* familiar. Here's an excerpt: Yeah, I got it. I agree, I believe it rings a bell somewhere from a month ago. It's good to see the ISPs becoming more responsible; that had been one of my biggest fears since AOL started offering internet services. Cheers, Joel From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 16:04:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23913 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA23901 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wwong@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.8.3/8.6.11) id QAA24753; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:02:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Wong Message-Id: <199611280002.QAA24753@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:02:32 -0800 (PST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611271750.KAA27605@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Nov 27, 96 10:50:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I didn't know you are a physicist. Where did you graduate? What degree(s)? > > ... If you don't mind me asking. :) > > I'm a physicist, an applied mathematician, and a computer scientist. I'm > a couple of quarters away from degrees in history, philosopy, and English, > too (I know, I'm ecclectic). > > I attended the University of Utah and Weber State University (Weber State > College at the time). > > I originally wanted to go for a PhD in high energy physics, but was > seduced by the dark side of computational physics (computer science). > > Since we're doing biographical data, my hero is Buckaroo Banzai. 8-). > > > Regards, > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > Interesting. I'm alike like you. I don't know if this is good or bad though. 8-0 . I have a few quarters of mainly GE classes left for simultaneous degrees in physics, mathematics, and computer science. It is a lot cheaper this way. My graduate studies will probably be in the areas of computational physics as well. I think I need a long break though... Buckaroo's "da man"! William T. Wong Network Analyst, Assistant Cal State University, San Bernardino Phone: (909) 880-7281 email: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 16:25:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24809 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA24801 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:25:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA11294; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:24:18 -0800 (PST) To: William Wong cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:02:32 PST." <199611280002.QAA24753@wiley.csusb.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:24:18 -0800 Message-ID: <11291.849140658@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Buckaroo's "da man"! But he never got a second movie. That should tell you something. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 16:37:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA25207 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA25202 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 16:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA29436; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:20:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611280020.RAA29436@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:20:17 -0700 (MST) Cc: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <11291.849140658@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 27, 96 04:24:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Buckaroo's "da man"! > > But he never got a second movie. That should tell you something. ;-) Peter Weller, John Lithgow, and Christopher Lloyd all said they were interested in making another movie, and would drop anything they were doing to do it. Apparently, the producer "cooked the books" on the movie, and could not go for another movie without opening his crime to scrutiny. So another movie was never made. The producer has since died, so he's no longer at legal risk, so there have been rumblings of another movie. I'd *really* like to see "Buckaroo Banzai vs. The World Crime League". If you look at the out takes from the first movie, they included some footage implicating "The World Crime League" in some of the initial events in the movie. You should read the book for details (it's a rare book, published by a British press), or you should hit the official home page (look for "Banzai" on Yahoo). 8-) 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 17:04:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA26588 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA26581 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id LAA10741; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:33:20 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611280103.LAA10741@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611280020.RAA29436@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 27, 96 05:20:17 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:33:19 +1030 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, wwong@wiley.csusb.edu, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > Buckaroo's "da man"! > > > > But he never got a second movie. That should tell you something. ;-) > > Peter Weller, John Lithgow, and Christopher Lloyd all said they > were interested in making another movie, and would drop anything > they were doing to do it. They'd have to get Jeff Goldblum back though; none of the women I just snap-polled would watch a sequel without him (my SO just about died laughing when I started with the Banzai quotes during ID4, but she still thinks he's wonderful. 8-/ ). > Apparently, the producer "cooked the books" on the movie, and could > not go for another movie without opening his crime to scrutiny. > > So another movie was never made. The gossip around here was that it was made with drug money, which is why the "World Crime League" movie would have been a losing idea... > by a British press), or you should hit the official home page > (look for "Banzai" on Yahoo). I should 8) > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 17:36:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA27835 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from irbs.irbs.com (jc@irbs.irbs.com [199.182.75.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA27830 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jc@localhost) by irbs.irbs.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) id UAA02733; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:36:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 20:36:01 -0500 From: jc@irbs.com (John Capo) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wonderful demo References: <10097.849127266@time.cdrom.com> <199611272116.NAA00905@Bitch.Melmac.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.51 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Organization: IRBS Engineering, (954) 792-9551 In-Reply-To: <199611272116.NAA00905@Bitch.Melmac.org>; from Ulf Zimmermann on Nov 27, 1996 13:16:55 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Ulf Zimmermann (ulf@lamb.net): > > Yep, I got one. But as I look at the headres, it is definatly not coming from > Slip.net: > > >From jiuyy@worldnet.att.net Tue Nov 26 20:23:44 1996 > Received: from mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (ns.worldnet.att.net [204.127.129.1]) b > y DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA06706 for ; Tue, 26 > Nov 1996 20:23:43 -0800 (PST) > Received: from Default ([153.35.21.105]) by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AEO19770; > Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:50:20 +0000 > > 153.35.0.0/16 is UUNET. Most of the spam I get is through worldnet's mail machines but not worldnet's customers. John Capo From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 27 19:10:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00998 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [206.169.44.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA00993 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:10:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from Bitch.Melmac.org (ulf@Bitch.Melmac.org [207.90.181.42]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id TAA09481; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Bitch.Melmac.org (8.8.3/8.7.6) id TAA01216; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:10:34 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199611280310.TAA01216@Bitch.Melmac.org> Subject: Re: wonderful demo To: jc@irbs.com (John Capo) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 19:10:34 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from John Capo at "Nov 27, 96 08:36:01 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Quoting Ulf Zimmermann (ulf@lamb.net): > > > > Yep, I got one. But as I look at the headres, it is definatly not coming from > > Slip.net: > > > > >From jiuyy@worldnet.att.net Tue Nov 26 20:23:44 1996 > > Received: from mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (ns.worldnet.att.net [204.127.129.1]) b > > y DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA06706 for ; Tue, 26 > > Nov 1996 20:23:43 -0800 (PST) > > Received: from Default ([153.35.21.105]) by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AEO19770; > > Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:50:20 +0000 > > > > > > 153.35.0.0/16 is UUNET. Most of the spam I get is through worldnet's > mail machines but not worldnet's customers. > > John Capo > > I know. They try to make some confusion. Ulf. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Lamb Art Internet Services | http://www.Lamb.net/ | http://www.Alameda.net From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 09:14:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03894 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03889 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22387 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:14:10 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199611281714.TAA22387@grackle.grondar.za> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Much sadness. Sniff... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:14:09 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all I had to reboot my -server just now. Look at the uptime! M ------- Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:04:13 +0200 (SAT) From: Grunt Root Message-Id: <199611281704.TAA12981@grunt.grondar.za> To: mark@grondar.za 7:04PM up 84 days, 20 mins, 2 users, load averages: 0.06, 0.15, 0.15 ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 12:25:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11555 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11550 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA09357 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:26:01 -0800 Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA13269 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:22:32 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA24516 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:22:31 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id VAA16456 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:17:22 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611282017.VAA16456@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Much sadness. Sniff... To: chat@FreeBSD.org Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:17:22 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611281714.TAA22387@grackle.grondar.za> from Mark Murray at "Nov 28, 96 07:14:09 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Mark Murray wrote: > I had to reboot my -server just now. Look at the uptime! > 7:04PM up 84 days, 20 mins, 2 users, load averages: 0.06, 0.15, 0.15 Ah, an uptime contest! :-) Well, let's see... j@bonnie 51% uptime 9:14pm up 77 days, 14:14, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 j@bonnie 52% uname -a FreeBSD bonnie.tcd-dresden.de 1.1.5.1(RELEASE) BONNIE#7 i386 One of the machines of my previous employer. Now that i've left them, i think it will never see a more recent OS version. Too bad, it seems they really had to reboot that machine ``recently''. :) (I think i even know the reason; the UARTs there tend to jam every now and then with the 1.1.5.1 sio driver.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 13:24:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA13813 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from solar.tlk.com (root@solar.tlk.com [194.97.84.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13808 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by solar.tlk.com id ; Thu, 28 Nov 96 22:24 MET Message-Id: From: torstenb@solar.tlk.com (Torsten Blum) Subject: Re: Much sadness. Sniff... In-Reply-To: <199611282017.VAA16456@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 28, 96 09:17:22 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:24:14 +0100 (MET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL26 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark wrote: > > I had to reboot my -server just now. Look at the uptime! > > 7:04PM up 84 days, 20 mins, 2 users, load averages: 0.06, 0.15, 0.15 Joerg wrote: > j@bonnie 51% uptime > 9:14pm up 77 days, 14:14, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 > j@bonnie 52% uname -a > FreeBSD bonnie.tcd-dresden.de 1.1.5.1(RELEASE) BONNIE#7 i386 Hm, I don't have an old 1.1 box around, but... crashme% uname -a FreeBSD crashme.tlk.com 2.2-CURRENT FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Wed Jan 17 11:05:51 MET 1996 torstenb@crashme.tlk.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/CRASHME i386 % uptime 10:07PM up 205 days, 8:17, 2 users, load averages: 0.92, 0.78, 0.70 -tb From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 13:48:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14843 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14836 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA01056; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:30:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611282130.OAA01056@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:30:36 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, wwong@wiley.csusb.edu, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611280103.LAA10741@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 28, 96 11:33:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Buckaroo's "da man"! > > > > > > But he never got a second movie. That should tell you something. ;-) > > > > Peter Weller, John Lithgow, and Christopher Lloyd all said they > > were interested in making another movie, and would drop anything > > they were doing to do it. > > They'd have to get Jeff Goldblum back though; none of the women I > just snap-polled would watch a sequel without him (my SO just about died > laughing when I started with the Banzai quotes during ID4, but she > still thinks he's wonderful. 8-/ ). Well, the Weller interview is on the www page... I can't rememebr if he mentioned Jeff, but I suspect he did. > > Apparently, the producer "cooked the books" on the movie, and could > > not go for another movie without opening his crime to scrutiny. > > > > So another movie was never made. > > The gossip around here was that it was made with drug money, which is > why the "World Crime League" movie would have been a losing idea... Where is "around here"? I never heard this rumor... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 13:53:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15266 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA15258 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA15704; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:52:50 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA26187; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:52:49 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA03742; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:40:59 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611282140.WAA03742@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Alpha Based Machines (Was: Re: IBM 57SLC) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:40:58 +0100 (MET) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611282110.QAA03803@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Nov 28, 96 04:10:14 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Now it's ``chat''-time.) As John S. Dyson wrote: > Sorry for the pseudo-flame, but I am getting sicker and angry-er every > day dealing with NT's (4.0) performance (a major component of quality > IMO) problems. Well, you need a dual-CPU machine at least: one CPU for NT, and the other one for your applications... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 14:38:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17460 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilms.nla.gov.au (ilms.nla.gov.au [192.102.239.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA17455 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 14:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from gadget.nla.gov.au (cmakin@gadget.nla.gov.au [203.4.201.52]) by ilms.nla.gov.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA85937 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:34:20 +1100 Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:38:18 +1100 (EST) From: Carl Makin To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Much sadness. Sniff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Torsten Blum wrote: > Mark wrote: > > > 7:04PM up 84 days, 20 mins, 2 users, load averages: 0.06, 0.15, 0.15 > Joerg wrote: > > 9:14pm up 77 days, 14:14, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 > 10:07PM up 205 days, 8:17, 2 users, load averages: 0.92, 0.78, 0.70 % uptime 9:36AM up 127 days, 16:24, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 % uname -a FreeBSD ns1.nla.gov.au 2.1.5-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE #0: Wed Jul 17 03:09:31 1996 jkh@whisker.cdrom.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/GENERIC i386 -- Carl Makin (VK1KCM) C.Makin@nla.gov.au 'Work +61 6 262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" 'If you want to make your spouse pay attention to what you say... Talk in your sleep!' From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 16:18:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19971 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19965 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA18460; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:44:17 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611290014.KAA18460@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives In-Reply-To: <199611282130.OAA01056@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 28, 96 02:30:36 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:44:16 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, wwong@wiley.csusb.edu, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > > The gossip around here was that it was made with drug money, which is > > why the "World Crime League" movie would have been a losing idea... > > Where is "around here"? I never heard this rumor... "adelaide". I can directly attribute my hearing of the rumour to one Ian Mackereth, who lured me into his den and plied me with popcorn and running commentary. I retaliated about a week later by parking him in a beanbag in my living room and subjecting him to Plan 9. Regrettably, he now terrorises sydneysiders 8( > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 19:20:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA25152 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [206.224.65.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25147 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:20:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA20583; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:20:29 -0600 (CST) From: Bob Willcox Message-Id: <199611290320.VAA20583@luke.pmr.com> Subject: Re: Much sadness. Sniff... In-Reply-To: from Torsten Blum at "Nov 28, 96 10:24:14 pm" To: torstenb@solar.tlk.com (Torsten Blum) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:20:28 -0600 (CST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: bob@luke.pmr.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Torsten Blum wrote: > Mark wrote: > > > > I had to reboot my -server just now. Look at the uptime! > > > 7:04PM up 84 days, 20 mins, 2 users, load averages: 0.06, 0.15, 0.15 > > Joerg wrote: > > > j@bonnie 51% uptime > > 9:14pm up 77 days, 14:14, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 > > j@bonnie 52% uname -a > > FreeBSD bonnie.tcd-dresden.de 1.1.5.1(RELEASE) BONNIE#7 i386 > > Hm, I don't have an old 1.1 box around, but... > > crashme% uname -a > FreeBSD crashme.tlk.com 2.2-CURRENT FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Wed Jan 17 11:05:51 MET 1996 torstenb@crashme.tlk.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/CRASHME i386 > % uptime > 10:07PM up 205 days, 8:17, 2 users, load averages: 0.92, 0.78, 0.70 Here's the current stats on my nameserver/gateway: bob@rancor-p1 /home/bob> uname -a FreeBSD rancor.pmr.com 2.1-STABLE FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #0: Wed Dec 27 09:21:05 CST 1995 root@rancor.pmr.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/RANCOR i386 bob@rancor-p1 /home/bob> uptime 9:17PM up 264 days, 17:31, 3 users, load averages: 0.01, 0.03, 0.00 Admittedly, it doesn't work too hard most of the time, but it sure does what it does well! :-) -- Bob Willcox politics, n: bob@luke.pmr.com A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of Austin, TX principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage. -- Ambrose Bierce From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 21:28:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA28863 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA28858 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wwong@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.8.3/8.6.11) id VAA08689; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:26:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Wong Message-Id: <199611290526.VAA08689@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: SCSI A/V drives To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:26:33 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <11291.849140658@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 27, 96 04:24:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Buckaroo's "da man"! > > But he never got a second movie. That should tell you something. ;-) > > Jordan > In the real world, not much. I see the majority of folks going for the simpler things in life. William T. Wong Network Analyst, Assistant Cal State University, San Bernardino Phone: (909) 880-7281 email: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 28 22:22:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA00559 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00554 for ; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wwong@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.8.3/8.6.11) id WAA08983; Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:20:49 -0800 (PST) From: William Wong Message-Id: <199611290620.WAA08983@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: Laws of Physics (was Re: SCSI A/V drives) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 22:20:49 -0800 (PST) Cc: wes@xmission.com, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611280124.SAA03468@obie.softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Nov 27, 96 06:24:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > William Wong writes, in response to Terry Lambert's ramblings on A/V drives: > > I didn't know you are a physicist. Where did you graduate? What degree(s)? > > ... If you don't mind me asking. :) > > Oh dear. William, you seem to have confused the state "having a > degree" with "actually knowing something." I can assure you from > years of experience that these are separate bits in the PSW (Person > Status Word). > > Replies directed to chat, where this thread rightfully belonged > several days ago. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com > > > I agree with you 100 percent except for the part of my confusing those "states". I don't remember stating that having a degree in something related to "actually knowing something". Believe me, I have experienced enough to know just exactly where you are coming from. The reason I'm going for so many degrees is for that marketing advantage (yech!). It's very unfortunate that so many companies are looking for degrees rather than of abilities. William T. Wong Network Analyst, Assistant Cal State University, San Bernardino Phone: (909) 880-7281 email: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 08:59:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA24391 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 08:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.id.net (mail.id.net [199.125.1.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA24386 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 08:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.id.net (server.id.net [199.125.1.10]) by mail.id.net (8.7.5/ID-Net) with ESMTP id MAA24043 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:03:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rls@localhost) by server.id.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24814 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:59:57 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Shady Message-Id: <199611291659.LAA24814@server.id.net> Subject: Differential vs. Standard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:59:57 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Okay, this is the third time I've had to type this because I kept hitting the wrong key... Basically, I have the opportunity to grab a couple unused spare Seagate ST-410800WD hard drives, 9GB, Fast/Wide, Differential, 68 pin connectors. I will be able to get these drives at about 25% less than my cost through Ingram Micro, TechData, Mersiel, etc... (Which are all out of stock BTW). 1. Is there any problems with these drives. 2. What exactly does "Differential" mean? Does it help, or hurt? Differential drives appear to cost slightly more than the standard versions, which leads me to believe that they may be better in some way shape or form. I'm supposed to pick these up in an hour or two so the quicker the response the better... -- Rob === _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ Innovative Data Services Serving South-Eastern Michigan Internet Service Provider / Hardware Sales / Consulting Services Voice: (810)855-0404 / Fax: (810)855-3268 / Web: http://www.id.net From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 09:42:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25472 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:42:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA25467 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from kongur (kongur.cs.ucdavis.edu) by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA05920; Fri, 29 Nov 96 09:42:14 PST Received: by kongur (SMI-8.6/UCDCS.SECLAB.Solaris2-2.1) id RAA13862; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:42:13 GMT Message-Id: Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:42:13 -0800 From: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu (David E. O'Brien) To: rls@mail.id.net (Robert Shady) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Differential vs. Standard References: <199611291659.LAA24814@server.id.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 In-Reply-To: <199611291659.LAA24814@server.id.net>; from Robert Shady on Nov 29, 1996 11:59:57 -0500 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robert Shady writes: > Basically, I have the opportunity to grab a couple unused spare Seagate > ST-410800WD hard drives, 9GB, Fast/Wide, Differential, 68 pin connectors. > I will be able to get these drives at about 25% less than my cost through > Ingram Micro, TechData, Mersiel, etc... (Which are all out of stock BTW). > > 2. What exactly does "Differential" mean? Does it help, or hurt? Differential means you have two wires for every standard SCSI signal. In standard SCSI you measure a signal by looking at its voltage level w/respect to ground. In differential you measure a SCSI signal by taking the voltage difference between two the wires associated with that signal. The advantage is: with long cables or in an electrically noisy environment, the signals in your cables are affected, but ground isn't. Thus you don't read the signals correctly. W/differential, the signal in each of the two wires are *both* equally affected. Thus you get a correct reading. Differential drives allow you to use *much* longer SCSI cables. This is often an issue with large external backup tape silos, optical jukeboxes and other terrabyte storage. -- -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 10:18:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26783 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26778 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA02434; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:00:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611291800.LAA02434@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Laws of Physics (was Re: SCSI A/V drives) To: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu (William Wong) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:00:45 -0700 (MST) Cc: wes@xmission.com, terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611290620.WAA08983@wiley.csusb.edu> from "William Wong" at Nov 28, 96 10:20:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I agree with you 100 percent except for the part of my confusing those > "states". I don't remember stating that having a degree in something related > to "actually knowing something". Believe me, I have experienced enough to > know just exactly where you are coming from. The reason I'm going for so many > degrees is for that marketing advantage (yech!). It's very unfortunate that > so many companies are looking for degrees rather than of abilities. Actually, Wes and I have a mutual friend who has degrees in psychology, mathematics, and computer science. A degree is less important to marketability than interviewing well. Another mutual friend of Wes and I claims that a degree is a latter day union card. Since he is a PhD who has been teaching physics (and then computer science) for decades, I tend to believe him. He is the person who hands out the union cards, after all. So in order of "importance" for marketability: 1) Ability to get an interview. 2) Ability to sell yourself in an interview. 3) Ability to do what you claimed you could so that you keep the job. Item #3 is the reason you look at job history when hiring someone; if they have a lot of short duration jobs, it's likely they meet items #1 and #2, but fall down afterwards. A degree can be useful if you go through an HR department to get hired; one of the things HR departments do is pick some arbitrary measure of merit, and throw all the resumes/applications not meeting that measure into the trash. Sometimes a degree is is used as that measure. Sometimes, it's experience. Sometimes, it's how well your resume is written. Sometimes, it's spelling. On the other hand, in my entire employment history I have only gone in for a job through an HR department once, and that was applying to a company that answered 800 number calls. I ended up not working for them because they wanted me to sign over invention rights while I was answering their phones; kind of a silly requirement for employment for a high school student. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 10:22:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27060 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27055 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id TAA23345; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:22:36 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA03355; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:22:35 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id TAA26596; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:08:10 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611291808.TAA26596@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Differential vs. Standard To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 19:08:10 +0100 (MET) Cc: rls@mail.id.net (Robert Shady) In-Reply-To: <199611291659.LAA24814@server.id.net> from Robert Shady at "Nov 29, 96 11:59:57 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Robert Shady wrote: > 2. What exactly does "Differential" mean? Does it help, or hurt? > Differential drives appear to cost slightly more than the standard > versions, which leads me to believe that they may be better in some > way shape or form. It has a better signal/noise ratio. Hence you're allowed to have longer cables. The downside: you need differential interfaces on _any and all_ devices on this bus, including but not limited the controller itself. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 10:37:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27583 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamby1.lightside.net (hamby1.lightside.net [207.67.176.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27575 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:37:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by hamby1.lightside.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id AAA00204; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 00:32:17 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: hamby1.lightside.net: jehamby owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 00:32:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby X-Sender: jehamby@hamby1 To: Robert Shady cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Differential vs. Standard In-Reply-To: <199611291659.LAA24814@server.id.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm not a SCSI expert, but I seem to remember that differential drives use differential signaling, which allows a longer total cable length than the standard 2 meters. The downside is that you need a special differential SCSI controller, and you can't mix differential and regular SCSI drives on the same chain. To do so will almost certainly physically damage your hardware! So yes, they're cheap, but you can't mix and match them with your existing SCSI controller or drives. Sorry... -- Jake On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Robert Shady wrote: > Okay, this is the third time I've had to type this because I kept hitting > the wrong key... > > Basically, I have the opportunity to grab a couple unused spare Seagate > ST-410800WD hard drives, 9GB, Fast/Wide, Differential, 68 pin connectors. > I will be able to get these drives at about 25% less than my cost through > Ingram Micro, TechData, Mersiel, etc... (Which are all out of stock BTW). > > 1. Is there any problems with these drives. > 2. What exactly does "Differential" mean? Does it help, or hurt? > Differential drives appear to cost slightly more than the standard > versions, which leads me to believe that they may be better in some > way shape or form. > > I'm supposed to pick these up in an hour or two so the quicker the response > the better... > > -- Rob From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 11:21:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01032 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.id.net (mail.id.net [199.125.1.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01027 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.id.net (server.id.net [199.125.1.10]) by mail.id.net (8.7.5/ID-Net) with ESMTP id OAA24930; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rls@localhost) by server.id.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA29480; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:21:31 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Shady Message-Id: <199611291921.OAA29480@server.id.net> Subject: Re: Differential vs. Standard In-Reply-To: <199611291808.TAA26596@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 29, 96 07:08:10 pm" To: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:21:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, rls@mail.id.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Robert Shady wrote: > > > 2. What exactly does "Differential" mean? Does it help, or hurt? > > Differential drives appear to cost slightly more than the standard > > versions, which leads me to believe that they may be better in some > > way shape or form. > > It has a better signal/noise ratio. Hence you're allowed to have > longer cables. The downside: you need differential interfaces on _any > and all_ devices on this bus, including but not limited the controller > itself. Does this mean I need a "special" controller for these drives, or will any SCSI controller work as long as I don't have anything but differential drives on the SCSI chain? -- Rob === _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ Innovative Data Services Serving South-Eastern Michigan Internet Service Provider / Hardware Sales / Consulting Services Voice: (810)855-0404 / Fax: (810)855-3268 / Web: http://www.id.net From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 13:54:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08975 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08966 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:54:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA28549 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 22:53:55 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA07503 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 22:53:54 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA27238 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 22:34:45 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611292134.WAA27238@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Differential vs. Standard To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 22:34:44 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611291921.OAA29480@server.id.net> from Robert Shady at "Nov 29, 96 02:21:30 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Robert Shady wrote: > Does this mean I need a "special" controller for these drives, or will > any SCSI controller work as long as I don't have anything but differential > drives on the SCSI chain? Yep, you need a differential controller, and differential devices. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 13:58:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09306 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09301 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:58:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA13427; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:58:15 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Shady cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Differential vs. Standard In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:59:57 EST." <199611291659.LAA24814@server.id.net> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:58:15 -0800 Message-ID: <13424.849304695@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 2. What exactly does "Differential" mean? Does it help, or hurt? Have you ever studied the power transfer system of an automobile? It's like that. If one of the drives starts spinning slower, the other drive compensates by speeding up. Don't mention it. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 14:20:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10786 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:20:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10762 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA13556; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:19:04 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu (William Wong), wes@xmission.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Laws of Physics (was Re: SCSI A/V drives) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Nov 1996 11:00:45 MST." <199611291800.LAA02434@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:19:03 -0800 Message-ID: <13554.849305943@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So in order of "importance" for marketability: > > 1) Ability to get an interview. > 2) Ability to sell yourself in an interview. > 3) Ability to do what you claimed you could so that you keep > the job. Terry Terry Terry, now we *know* you're an academic. None of this has been relevant in Dilbert's America for some time - I think you must have been looking in one of those Job Strategy Handbook's from the 50's again (the tip-off is when the illustrations all have hairstyles like June and Ward Cleaver). Here's the modern version: 1) Ability to get an interview. 2) Ability to sell yourself in an interview. 3) Ability to appear like you're working hard so that you can keep the job. 4) Ability to delegate tasks to others so that nothing ever actually winds up in your inbox, where it could damage your career. 5) Ability to call attention to the previous strategy during your golf games with the boss in such a way that it makes you look like great management material. 6) Ability to get promoted to management, where you can now walk around the office all day with a cup of coffee, hassling people and appearing like the kind of "hands-on" manager they need rather than just some jerk who has no actual job of his own. 7) Ability to write memos containing so much jargon that nobody can actually understand just what it is you're talking about, making you a clear and acknowledged expert of some sort. 8) Ability to cash out your hefty stock options at age 40 and retire to become a "management consultant", giving pricey seminars to others about your 8 step program for success. Needless to say, the degree is not that important a component. If you want a bragging wall in your office, it's also far better to cover it with certificates of completion from various training seminars (see #8) claiming that you've been Crosbyized, Fagin Processed and personally certified as ISO-9000 compliant. Since these will also enable you to spend up to 60% of your time away from the office in training, it's another good way of avoiding any actual work. If you're going to instruct the impressionable youth on this mailing list, Terry, at least make the effort to stay current. Thanks. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 15:22:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12795 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12790 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wwong@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.8.3/8.6.11) id PAA15012; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:20:11 -0800 (PST) From: William Wong Message-Id: <199611292320.PAA15012@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: Laws of Physics (was Re: SCSI A/V drives) To: "William Wong"@wiley.csusb.edu Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:20:10 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, wes@xmission.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <13554.849305943@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 29, 96 02:19:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > So in order of "importance" for marketability: > > > > 1) Ability to get an interview. > > 2) Ability to sell yourself in an interview. > > 3) Ability to do what you claimed you could so that you keep > > the job. > > Terry Terry Terry, now we *know* you're an academic. None of this has > been relevant in Dilbert's America for some time - I think you must > have been looking in one of those Job Strategy Handbook's from the > 50's again (the tip-off is when the illustrations all have hairstyles > like June and Ward Cleaver). Here's the modern version: > > 1) Ability to get an interview. > 2) Ability to sell yourself in an interview. > 3) Ability to appear like you're working hard so that you can keep > the job. > 4) Ability to delegate tasks to others so that nothing ever actually > winds up in your inbox, where it could damage your career. > 5) Ability to call attention to the previous strategy during your > golf games with the boss in such a way that it makes you look > like great management material. > 6) Ability to get promoted to management, where you can now walk around > the office all day with a cup of coffee, hassling people and appearing > like the kind of "hands-on" manager they need rather than just some > jerk who has no actual job of his own. > 7) Ability to write memos containing so much jargon that nobody can > actually understand just what it is you're talking about, making > you a clear and acknowledged expert of some sort. > 8) Ability to cash out your hefty stock options at age 40 and retire > to become a "management consultant", giving pricey seminars to others > about your 8 step program for success. > > Needless to say, the degree is not that important a component. If you > want a bragging wall in your office, it's also far better to cover it > with certificates of completion from various training seminars (see > #8) claiming that you've been Crosbyized, Fagin Processed and > personally certified as ISO-9000 compliant. Since these will also > enable you to spend up to 60% of your time away from the office in > training, it's another good way of avoiding any actual work. > > If you're going to instruct the impressionable youth on this mailing > list, Terry, at least make the effort to stay current. Thanks. > > Jordan > I think Jordan has hit the mark here. Here at my university is where you can see a prime example of what Jordan describes (especially 4), 6), and 7)). One item was left out that could pre-empt items 1) and 2). It is about knowing somebody high enough in the chain of command to "squeeze" you in. I know a lot of friends who got lucky this way. I'm seeing more companies that will not hire unless the applicant has at least one degree from some university. Qualcomm is one that comes to mind. I'm sure there are others. I remember working at GTE as an equipment technician a while back and seeing the folks upstairs programming a little, drinking lots of coffee and getting > 50-70k a year. That was their starting salary, by the way. When I asked how one can obtain such a job, their response was at least a BS in computer science. This infuriated me because I could have handled their jobs with aplomb. That was when I decided to go and get those degrees. When I responded to the original message by Wes Peters, I had no idea that you guys would be scrutinizing this "chat talk" with a razor! I guess I have to be more careful of what I write and how thorough I cover my grounds. ;) ... Or at least respond with enough replies to subtly shape shift my direction of movement. :) :) :) William T. Wong Network Analyst, Assistant Cal State University, San Bernardino Phone: (909) 880-7281 email: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 18:53:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA19875 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA19870 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id NAA24738; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 13:23:22 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611300253.NAA24738@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Differential vs. Standard In-Reply-To: <199611291921.OAA29480@server.id.net> from Robert Shady at "Nov 29, 96 02:21:30 pm" To: rls@mail.id.net (Robert Shady) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 13:23:21 +1030 (CST) Cc: j@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@freebsd.org, rls@mail.id.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robert Shady stands accused of saying: > > Does this mean I need a "special" controller for these drives, or will > any SCSI controller work as long as I don't have anything but differential > drives on the SCSI chain? You can also get adapters that let you use a single-ended controller and drives on one half of the bus, and differential on the other. I have one of these connecting an NCR to a small farm of old 600M disks; they used to be very expensive, but of late I've seen them advertised around the US$200 mark. > -- Rob -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 23:22:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA27899 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 23:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA27894 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 23:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA10050; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:22:37 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA15374; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:22:36 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id IAA00715; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:06:35 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611300706.IAA00715@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:06:34 +0100 (MET) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <14781.849325272@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 29, 96 07:41:12 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > .. - a 3 part booth, one part of which would be dedicated solely > to FreeBSD, another part (on the opposite side of the wall) being the > Slackware Linux booth and the main part being the Walnut Creek CDROM > area. Since we couldn't even *see* the Linux booth staffers during > the show, I'm afraid that all those rubber bands went to waste, though > I did manage to bean one of them with a ballistically-thrown FreeBSD > T-shirt. :-) Huh? You've still got T-shirts left? I want another one! I want another one! :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 29 23:58:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA29077 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 23:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from superior.truenorth.org (ppp019-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA29072 for ; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 23:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.truenorth.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA06010; Fri, 29 Nov 1996 23:57:08 -0800 (PST) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199611300757.XAA06010@superior.truenorth.org> Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 23:57:05 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com In-Reply-To: <199611300706.IAA00715@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 30, 96 08:06:34 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> .. - a 3 part booth, one part of which would be dedicated solely >> to FreeBSD, another part (on the opposite side of the wall) being the >> Slackware Linux booth and the main part being the Walnut Creek CDROM >> area. Since we couldn't even *see* the Linux booth staffers during >> the show, I'm afraid that all those rubber bands went to waste, though >> I did manage to bean one of them with a ballistically-thrown FreeBSD >> T-shirt. :-) > >Huh? You've still got T-shirts left? I want another one! I want >another one! :-) > >-- >cheers, J"org > While we are on the subject of T-shirts, does Walnut Creek sell them ? And what about coffee mugs. These don't seem to be listed in the catalog or on the web page. A mouse pad might also be nice.... Josef -- Josef Grosch | Laugh while you can, monkey boy ! | FreeBSD 2.1.6 jgrosch@sirius.com | - John Warfin - | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 02:03:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA03498 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from vienna.arpa.com (root@vienna.arpa.com [207.170.140.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA03490 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from in-addr.arpa.com (root@in-addr.arpa.com [207.170.140.2]) by vienna.arpa.com (8.8.3/8.8.3/Gissy/vienna3.4) with ESMTP id FAA25055 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 05:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rob@localhost) by in-addr.arpa.com (8.8.3/8.8.3/Gissy/in-addr4.2) id FAA07138 for chat@freefall.cdrom.com; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 05:03:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611301003.FAA07138@in-addr.arpa.com> Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. In-Reply-To: <199611300757.XAA06010@superior.truenorth.org> from Josef Grosch at "Nov 29, 96 11:57:05 pm" To: chat@freefall.FreeBSD.org Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 05:03:47 -0500 (EST) From: Rob Misiak-Rishaw X-No-Archive: yes X-Personal-Home-Page: http://www.arpa.com/~rob/ X-FYI: All mail origininating from aol.com is /dev/null'ed X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL26 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Josef Grosch wrote ... > > While we are on the subject of T-shirts, does Walnut Creek sell them ? And > what about coffee mugs. These don't seem to be listed in the catalog or on I think that a "Powered by FreeBSD" bumper sticker would be really cool :) Rob From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 02:45:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA05281 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA05276 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:45:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA01096; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:45:44 -0800 (PST) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:06:34 +0100." <199611300706.IAA00715@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:45:44 -0800 Message-ID: <1094.849350744@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Huh? You've still got T-shirts left? I want another one! I want > another one! :-) They're mediums (which is the same a saying that they would fit a 7 year old kid, and that's about it - these are *small* mediums). The ones which didn't sell at all and are left over. If you'd like a couple for the two kids, I'd be more than happy to send them to you, just so long as you don't harbor any dillusions about wearing them yourself. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 06:24:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA17769 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA17761 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:24:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA28747; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:17:20 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199611301417.QAA28747@grackle.grondar.za> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Was: Re: COMDEX trip report.. Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:17:18 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > year old kid, and that's about it - these are *small* mediums). The This line reminded me... (Apologies in advance) Thhis really happened here (Promise (*)) It seems that a less-than-mentally-stable midget psychic escaped from our local mental hospital after seducing his nurse. The next day, the newpapers ran the headlines: NUT SCREWS AND BOLTS; SMALL MEDIUM AT LARGE. M (*) If you believe this, I have a bridge to sell you. -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 06:37:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA18410 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA18403 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sage.fsl.noaa.gov (sage.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.42]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA19075; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 07:32:24 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32A04578.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 07:32:24 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Joerg Wunsch , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. References: <1094.849350744@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > They're mediums Wouldn't that be "media" then? ;-) -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 06:53:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA19230 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA19223 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 06:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12138 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:53:07 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id PAA20904 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:52:26 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.3/keltia-uucp-2.9) id LAA21927; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:29:30 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:29:30 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. References: <199611300706.IAA00715@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199611300757.XAA06010@superior.truenorth.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2738 In-Reply-To: <199611300757.XAA06010@superior.truenorth.org>; from Josef Grosch on Nov 29, 1996 23:57:05 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Josef Grosch: > While we are on the subject of T-shirts, does Walnut Creek sell them ? And > what about coffee mugs. These don't seem to be listed in the catalog or on > the web page. A mouse pad might also be nice.... Yes to both T-shirt and coffee mugs. The mug is cute to have in a meeting where eveyone has a plain cup and you're the only one with this big mug with a demon on it. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 07:23:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA20985 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 07:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA20967 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 07:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA18763 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:23:04 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA21297 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:23:04 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id QAA01943 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:15:59 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611301515.QAA01943@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:15:59 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <1094.849350744@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 30, 96 02:45:44 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Huh? You've still got T-shirts left? > > If you'd like a > couple for the two kids, I'd be more than happy to send them to you, > just so long as you don't harbor any dillusions about wearing them > yourself. ;-) Too bad. Well, i gotta ask the kids then... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 07:52:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA22445 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 07:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA22438 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 07:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA19506 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:52:39 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA00387 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:52:39 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id QAA02170 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:39:09 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611301539.QAA02170@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 16:39:09 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Ollivier Robert at "Nov 30, 96 11:29:30 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Ollivier Robert wrote: > Yes to both T-shirt and coffee mugs. The mug is cute to have in a meeting > where eveyone has a plain cup and you're the only one with this big mug > with a demon on it. It's also good among my colleagues, since there fits almost twice the amount of tee as in their cups/glasses. :-)) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 12:38:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06479 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06469 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) id PAA29033; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:32:06 -0500 (EST) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199611302032.PAA29033@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. To: rob@arpa.com (Rob Misiak-Rishaw) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:32:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611301003.FAA07138@in-addr.arpa.com> from "Rob Misiak-Rishaw" at Nov 30, 96 05:03:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Josef Grosch wrote ... > > > > While we are on the subject of T-shirts, does Walnut Creek sell them ? And > > what about coffee mugs. These don't seem to be listed in the catalog or on > > I think that a "Powered by FreeBSD" bumper sticker would be really cool :) > > Rob > > Sounds great. I'd order 5... Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive, Tinton Falls, NJ 07724, 908-389-3592 | pechter@shell.monmouth.com This message brought to you by the letters VAX and the numbers 11 and 780. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 19:58:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA29268 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA29263 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:57:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA01084; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:57:49 -0800 (PST) To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: COMDEX trip report.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:29:30 +0100." Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:57:49 -0800 Message-ID: <1082.849412669@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yes to both T-shirt and coffee mugs. The mug is cute to have in a meeting > where eveyone has a plain cup and you're the only one with this big mug > with a demon on it. Actually, WC no longer sells T-shirts and will not be reprinting any more, except for very limited promotional use (and even that's still being debated). The coffee mugs are also being discontinued and won't be sold after the current batch runs out. The breakage factor is so high that we end up sending 3 out for every one that arrives, and as a consequence now have to charge $19.95 just to make a profit on the coffee cup. Everyone involved agrees that twenty bucks is just way too much for a coffee cup, so they're also on the way out of WC's product line. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 30 22:28:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA03615 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (slc77.modem.xmission.com [204.228.136.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA03610 for ; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA08404; Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:53:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 22:53:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199612010553.WAA08404@obie.softweyr.com> From: Wes Peters To: William Wong CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Laws of Physics (was Re: SCSI A/V drives) In-Reply-To: <199611292320.PAA15012@wiley.csusb.edu> References: <13554.849305943@time.cdrom.com> <199611292320.PAA15012@wiley.csusb.edu> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk William Wong writes: > I remember working at GTE as an equipment technician a while back > and seeing the folks upstairs programming a little, drinking lots > of coffee and getting > 50-70k a year. That was their starting > salary, by the way. When I asked how one can obtain such a job, > their response was at least a BS in computer science. This > infuriated me because I could have handled their jobs with aplomb. > That was when I decided to go and get those degrees. When I worked for GTE (Gov't Systems Corp., there are a lot of "GTEs") they had an official policy of *not* checking references, including degrees. Write yourself an impressive resume, make sure you can BS your way through an interview with an alumni of whatever school(s) you're claiming to have degreed your way out of, and write yourself a salary. ;^) If you stick around as long as I have, you eventually get to write your own job title so you can impress friends and colleagues, and stump everyone who doesn't get it. Jordan was highly amused by mine and that of my partner at Comdex last week. Unfortunately, he didn't get to meet the third member of our party, Mark A. Matthews, who is titled "Evil Genius, Acme Rocket and Stormdoor Co." > When I responded to the original message by Wes Peters, I had no > idea that you guys would be scrutinizing this "chat talk" with a > razor! I guess I have to be more careful of what I write and how > thorough I cover my grounds. ;) ... Or at least respond with enough > replies to subtly shape shift my direction of movement. :) :) :) You haven't lurked here long enough, or you would know that Terry, Jordan, and I comprise the all-knowing, all-seeing triumvirate of freebsd-chat. We are the init, swapper, and pagedaemon of this list. ;^) Mostly we just look for invitations to rant about our pet peeves and prove to each other (everyone in FreeBSD-Land) how superior we are to mere mortals, such as DOS losers and Windows Weenies. We long ago delegated -questions to Doug White, because he gives more coherent answers than we do. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com