From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 01:12:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA24599 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA24592 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id RAA20645 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:12:26 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:12:25 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: make core dumps while building libf2c In-Reply-To: <199606160656.QAA19860@felix.antiquity.arts.su.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have suggestions for getting make world to complete? # find . -name \*\.core -print ./obj/lib/libf2c/make.core # tail /usr/src/make.log cc -fpic -DPIC -O2 -pipe -DIEEE_drem -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES -DNON_UNIX_STDIO -c /us r/src/lib/libf2c/../libI77/wsle.c -o wsle.so cc -fpic -DPIC -O2 -pipe -DIEEE_drem -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES -DNON_UNIX_STDIO -c /us r/src/lib/libf2c/../libI77/wsne.c -o wsne.so cc -fpic -DPIC -O2 -pipe -DIEEE_drem -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES -DNON_UNIX_STDIO -c /us r/src/lib/libf2c/../libI77/xwsne.c -o xwsne.so building shared f2c library (version 2.0) *** Error code 139 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 01:51:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27017 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27006 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA28208; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:51:28 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA20082; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:51:27 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA00492; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:41:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606160841.KAA00492@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: ahc sincing questions To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:41:39 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org, gea@masternet.it (Beck Peccoz Amedeo) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <31C36DEA.41C67EA6@masternet.it> from Beck Peccoz Amedeo at "Jun 16, 96 04:14:02 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Beck Peccoz Amedeo wrote: > While starting up the kernel with the -v option the ahc driver > reports the sinc speed for any attached scsi device in MHz. > Shouldn't be in Mbytes/s? No, i believe it's the clock rate, not the sync throughput. You have to multiply it by 2 for a 16-bit bus, and by 4 for a 32-bit bus. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 01:54:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27167 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.algonet.se (mail.algonet.se [193.12.207.206]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA27161 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 01:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (mal@aristotle.algonet.se [193.12.207.1]) by hermes.algonet.se (8.7.4/hdw.1.0) with ESMTP id KAA20416; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:54:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (mal@localhost) by aristotle.algonet.se (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA27613; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:55:10 +0200 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:55:10 +0200 Message-Id: <199606160855.KAA27613@aristotle.algonet.se> From: Mats Lofkvist To: nate@sri.MT.net CC: current@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <199606150254.UAA23487@rocky.sri.MT.net> (message from Nate Williams on Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:54:58 -0600) Subject: Re: NTP gurus Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [...] Understanding that my server may not be completely accurate, I am still using it to keep the rest of the machines in my domain in sync. At most they are a half a minute off from each other, vs. 10's of minutes in the past. Eh, do you mean milliseconds, not minutes? I would consider half a _second_ very bad with ntp running. A few milliseconds is good. Anyway, back to my question. How do I determine 'how accurage' my system's clock is based on /etc/ntp.drift? What are good numbers to have? [...] The drift value is the amount ntp is skewing the system clock frequency in parts per million. I got the following results when tweaking TIMER_FREQ on my 486 (from my config): # value ntp drift # 1193182 -550 ppm? # 1193634 -180 ppm # 1193849 +- 3 ppm # options "TIMER_FREQ=1193849" #Improve the clock accuracy on Garm I don't think the drift value matters very much when ntp is running, as long as ntp is able to lock in the first place (my ntp couldn't lock with the default TIMER_FREQ, so I had to fix it). (When _not_ running ntp, it is of course nice to have the system clock as accurate as possible.) _ Mats Lofkvist mal@algonet.se From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 02:22:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA27935 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA27930 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id LAA28889 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:22:01 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA20215 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:22:01 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA00689 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:58:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606160858.KAA00689@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:58:27 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606160656.QAA19860@felix.antiquity.arts.su.edu.au> from Pat Caldon at "Jun 16, 96 04:56:09 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Pat Caldon wrote: > > I wonder whether we should turn on ktrace by default. It seems to do > Yes! as a recent convert to FreeBSD about a year ago I was trying to > debug some wierdnesses in a httpd and ktrace was invaluable, after I got > it working. Which only took hours as I had to build my first kernel. > It should be in GENERIC like this: > > options KTRACE # Kernel Tracing; adds ~4k to kernel Well, right now i've counted about four ``aye''s, and one ``nope'' from Nate. I'm not going to do the deed unless Nate seems to be convinced about its usefulness, too, (so the only know objection is withdrawn) or unless there's an overwhelming ``Go for it''. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 02:31:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA28222 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA28216 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA11152 for current@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:31:45 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606161001.TAA11152@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: X in &T*$&%&$#%$^%67 current build To: current@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:31:45 +0930 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk CAN SOMEONE PLEASE REMOVE GXDITVIEW FROM THE GROFF TREE IN -CURRENT? or at the _very_ least make it _OPTIONAL_? You have _NO_^%$&^$&^$&_IDEA_ how annoying it is trying to 'make reinstall' a tree built on an X-less machine onto a farm with X. As far as I can see, all it will take is the removal of 'xditview' from the SUBDIR line in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/Makefile. For someone with commit privs, this is the work of a few seconds. For those of us trying to get something done, it is an Excruciating Pain in the Ass. I'm sorry if I come across all crabby on this, but this is about the fifth time I've asked for this pissant little edit in the last six or eight months. I haven't even heard an _excuse_, let alone a reason why it's still in the tree. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 05:02:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA03762 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA03750 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id VAA21473 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:01:57 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:01:56 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock Reply-To: Michael Hancock To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: make core dumps while building libf2c In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk More info. make libraries works but make world keeps core dumping. I'm doing the following: cat doit.sh #!/bin/sh ulimit -d unlimited ulimit -f unlimited ulimit -m unlimited ulimit -s unlimited make world 1>make.log 2>&1 MAXUSERS is 32 on a P166 box with 32MB #tail make.log building shared f2c library (version 2.0) nm: Version.so: no name list. nm: Version.so: no name list. tsort: cycle in data tsort: err.so tsort: sig_die.so tsort: close.so tsort: endfile.so tsort: open.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: sig_die.so tsort: close.so tsort: endfile.so tsort: err.so Memory fault - core dumped *** Error code 139 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. > Does anyone have suggestions for getting make world to complete? > > # find . -name \*\.core -print > ./obj/lib/libf2c/make.core > > # tail /usr/src/make.log > cc -fpic -DPIC -O2 -pipe -DIEEE_drem -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES -DNON_UNIX_STDIO > -c /us > r/src/lib/libf2c/../libI77/wsle.c -o wsle.so > cc -fpic -DPIC -O2 -pipe -DIEEE_drem -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES -DNON_UNIX_STDIO > -c /us > r/src/lib/libf2c/../libI77/wsne.c -o wsne.so > cc -fpic -DPIC -O2 -pipe -DIEEE_drem -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES -DNON_UNIX_STDIO > -c /us > r/src/lib/libf2c/../libI77/xwsne.c -o xwsne.so > building shared f2c library (version 2.0) > *** Error code 139 > > Stop. > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > -- michaelh@cet.co.jp http://www.cet.co.jp CET Inc., Daiichi Kasuya BLDG 8F 2-5-12, Higashi Shinbashi, Minato-ku, Tokyo 105 Japan Tel: +81-3-3437-1761 Fax: +81-3-3437-1766 From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 05:38:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA04873 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA04868 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA11465; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:38:27 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606161308.WAA11465@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: make core dumps while building libf2c To: michaelh@cet.co.jp Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:38:26 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jun 16, 96 09:01:56 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Hancock stands accused of saying: > > More info. > > make libraries works but make world keeps core dumping. I'm doing the > following: Sounds like hardware to me. I ran a number of 'world's over the weekend with no problems here. (Starting with 960501-SNAP as a base) > michaelh@cet.co.jp http://www.cet.co.jp -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 06:18:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA07366 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA07361 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA13946; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:17:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: X in &T*$&%&$#%$^%67 current build In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:31:45 +0930." <199606161001.TAA11152@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:17:51 -0700 Message-ID: <13944.834931071@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > CAN SOMEONE PLEASE REMOVE GXDITVIEW FROM THE GROFF TREE IN -CURRENT? OK, ok, done! Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 06:40:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA08223 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from myall.awadi.com.au (myall.awadi.com.AU [150.207.2.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA08218 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from debacle.awadi.com.au ([150.207.10.2]) by myall.awadi.com.au (8.7.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id XAA23535; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 23:09:47 +0930 (CST) Received: (from dbarker@localhost) by debacle.awadi.com.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01546; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 23:09:54 +0930 (CST) To: Stephen Hocking Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SMP Pentium boards in Oz References: <199606140812.IAA19478@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> From: Dave Barker Date: 16 Jun 1996 23:09:49 +0930 In-Reply-To: Stephen Hocking's message of (unknown date) Message-ID: <87u3wbx3yw.fsf@debacle.awadi.com.au> Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.12/XEmacs 19.13 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen Hocking writes: Stephen> Given the recent to-do about the SMP code, does any other Stephen> Australian know of any vendors of SMP Pentium MBs in Oz? Well, IPS (http://www.ipspty.com.au/index.html) sells the Tyan Tomcat II, a dual pentium motherboard. I've never tried this board, or this supplier, but I have been thinking of biting the bullet and replacing my ancient 25 MHz 486. I got a quote from them about a week ago, and I haven't died of shock yet. Cheers, Dave. BTW: Tyan (http://www.tyan.com) list 3 Australian suppliers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 06:50:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA08689 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from research.gate.nec.co.jp (research.gate.nec.co.jp [202.32.8.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA08684 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbl-gw.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp by research.gate.nec.co.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/950912) with ESMTP id WAA10344; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:50:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp by sbl-gw.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/3.3W6) with ESMTP id WAA11674; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:50:17 +0900 (JST) X-Authentication-Warning: sbl-gw.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp: Host nao@sirius [133.207.68.90] claimed to be sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp Received: by sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/3.3W6) with UUCP id WAA16739; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:50:13 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:50:13 +0900 (JST) From: Naoki Hamada Message-Id: <199606161350.WAA16739@sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp> References: <199606101905.NAA09662@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606140751.QAA09655@sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp> <199606142222.QAA22932@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: current@freebsd.org CC: nate@sri.MT.net In-reply-to: Nate Williams's message of "Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:22:15 -0600" <199606142222.QAA22932@rocky.sri.MT.net> Subject: Re: Attention 3C5X9 owners Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Also, I want to express my thanks for the PC-CARD patches to if_ep.c. I >got them via the Nomad's latest release and they are now part of >FreeBSD-current. I am very glad to hear this. Yesterday, I obtained an AUI-UTP transceiver and a 3C589C. So I could make a more extensive test. The result: all switching between all connectors on all the following boards worked well! ISA: 3C509B-COMBO (AUI, BNC, UTP) EISA: 3C579-BNC (AUI, BNC) PCCARD: 3C589C-COMBO (BNC, UTP) -nao From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 06:55:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA09001 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from masternet.it (root@masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA08993 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from socrate (ts1port15d.masternet.it [194.184.65.37]) by masternet.it (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA28422; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:53:31 +0200 Message-ID: <31C41915.41C67EA6@masternet.it> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:24:21 +0200 From: Beck Peccoz Amedeo X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Justin T. Gibbs" CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ahc sincing questions References: <199606160635.XAA19559@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > > While starting up the kernel with the -v option the ahc driver > >reports the sinc speed for any attached scsi device in MHz. > >Shouldn't be in Mbytes/s? > > MHz is correct. The sync rate is a measure of the clock rate at > which data is transfered. Only when you multiply that by the bus > width, do you get MBytes/s. Ok, I see. > > Why I see no difference when enable the ultra speed? My HD can > >sinc at 20 Mbytes/s, but it actually sincs only at 10... what's > >wrong? > > If you have a Wide drive, it does 10Mhz sync on a 16bit bus. If you > have an 8bit device, it must do 20Mhz sync in order to do 20MB/s. > What is your drive model? The only Ultra drive I know of on the market > is a Seagate one, and the person who tried it said it refused to negotiate > 20Mhz sync (looking from a SCSI bus analyzer) and that it was the device's > fault and not the driver's. I've got a Seagate wide HD (ST32550W) acceptinc max sync transfer rate of 20 Mbytes/s (i.e. 10MHz). If I set the ultra speed on the adapter (20MHz or 40Mb/s) it still syncs at 10MHz. So far so good. A problem arises when I run a benchmark, a very silly one, that does only read a big unfragmented file, as I get a transfer rate of only 7.4 Mb/s, while I read of a test on the same drive/adapter leading to a transfer rate of 16Mb/s, more than twice. It seems that the HD only negotiates at 10Mb/s, and as the ahc reports 10MHz either one of theese value is wrong or the wide channel is only used as a normal 8 bit one. -- Beck-Peccoz Amedeo GEA Software S.r.l. Via Deffeyes, 1 11025 Gressoney Saint Jean (AO) ITALY Tel. ++39-125-366302 Fax. ++39-125-366415 From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 06:56:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA09051 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from research.gate.nec.co.jp (research.gate.nec.co.jp [202.32.8.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA09046 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 06:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sbl-gw.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp by research.gate.nec.co.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/950912) with ESMTP id WAA10373; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:56:25 +0900 (JST) Received: from sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp by sbl-gw.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/3.3W6) with ESMTP id WAA11808; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:56:23 +0900 (JST) X-Authentication-Warning: sbl-gw.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp: Host nao@sirius [133.207.68.90] claimed to be sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp Received: by sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/3.3W6) with UUCP id WAA16744; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:56:19 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:56:19 +0900 (JST) From: Naoki Hamada Message-Id: <199606161356.WAA16744@sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp> References: <199606141602.KAA21742@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606141304.NAA14522@whydos.lkg.dec.com> <199606141723.LAA21953@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: nate@sri.MT.net CC: matt@lkg.dec.com, freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Nate Williams's message of "Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:23:14 -0600" <199606141723.LAA21953@rocky.sri.MT.net> Subject: Re: 2.2-960612-SNAP impressions Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >if_zp.c. PCCARD support doesn't exist in -current, and until recently >didn't work for the if_ep.c (patches were made to the most recent Nomad >release, but they use if_nep anyway). if_nep.c is only for an internal test and now obsoleted by new if_ep.c. Latest Nomad release still contains if_nep.c, but it will be no more supported. -nao From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 08:12:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA13754 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA13749 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA26200; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:12:00 -0600 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:12:00 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606161512.JAA26200@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Mats Lofkvist Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: NTP gurus In-Reply-To: <199606160855.KAA27613@aristotle.algonet.se> References: <199606150254.UAA23487@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606160855.KAA27613@aristotle.algonet.se> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Understanding that my server may not be completely accurate, I am still > using it to keep the rest of the machines in my domain in sync. At most > they are a half a minute off from each other, vs. 10's of minutes in the > past. > > Eh, do you mean milliseconds, not minutes? I would consider half a _second_ > very bad with ntp running. A few milliseconds is good. On some of the boxes I'm not running 'xntpd', but instead I am running ntpdate once/day. On those boxes the drift can get to be seconds/day. (I'm seeing 10-12 seconds/day on the SPARCS). > The drift value is the amount ntp is skewing the system clock frequency > in parts per million. I got the following results when tweaking > TIMER_FREQ on my 486 (from my config): > > # value ntp drift > # 1193182 -550 ppm? > # 1193634 -180 ppm > # 1193849 +- 3 ppm > # .. > I don't think the drift value matters very much when ntp is running, Right, but apparently Bruce is trying to determine the most accurate timer in the system, and ntp is one way of determing the accuracy of the clock. Thanks for the info! Nate From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 08:13:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA13775 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA13769 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA26205; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:13:06 -0600 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:13:06 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606161513.JAA26205@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Naoki Hamada Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, matt@lkg.dec.com, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.2-960612-SNAP impressions In-Reply-To: <199606161356.WAA16744@sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp> References: <199606141602.KAA21742@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606141304.NAA14522@whydos.lkg.dec.com> <199606141723.LAA21953@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606161356.WAA16744@sirius.sbl.cl.nec.co.jp> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >if_zp.c. PCCARD support doesn't exist in -current, and until recently > >didn't work for the if_ep.c (patches were made to the most recent Nomad > >release, but they use if_nep anyway). > > if_nep.c is only for an internal test and now obsoleted by new > if_ep.c. Latest Nomad release still contains if_nep.c, but it will be > no more supported. Glad to hear it. The last release (6/12) still used if_nep since /etc/pccard.conf still used it still, so I wasn't aware that it was being phased out. Thanks again! Nate From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 08:23:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA14635 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA14622 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA26223; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:19:31 -0600 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:19:31 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606161519.JAA26223@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] In-Reply-To: <199606160858.KAA00689@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <199606160656.QAA19860@felix.antiquity.arts.su.edu.au> <199606160858.KAA00689@uriah.heep.sax.de> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > options KTRACE # Kernel Tracing; adds ~4k to kernel > > Well, right now i've counted about four ``aye''s, and one ``nope'' > from Nate. I'm not going to do the deed unless Nate seems to be > convinced about its usefulness, too, (so the only know objection is > withdrawn) or unless there's an overwhelming ``Go for it''. For 4K I say go for it. I thought it was more, and although I do understand the hit for syscalls, it can't be any worse than some of the other additions we make in GENERIC. So, my objection is withdrawn. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 09:30:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23763 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA23742 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.20]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14723(8)>; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:29:28 PDT Received: by gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-TB) id AA21697; Sun, 16 Jun 96 12:29:57 EDT Message-Id: <9606161629.AA21697@gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: how to find size of special file In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 15 Jun 1996 03:44:28 PDT." <199606151044.DAA00936@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:29:56 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >nor the less obvious > > int fd ; > struct stat sb ; > fd = open(filename, ...) ; > size = lseek(fd, 0, SEEK_END) ; > >work on special files, even if they are disk partitions. (They both >work on regular files....) > >Satoshi Hmm... wc filename will work...did the open work? What errno is it returning? From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 17:38:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA01569 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA01558 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fcurrent@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA10445; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:30:38 GMT Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:30:38 GMT Message-Id: <199606170030.AAA10445@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: bde@zeta.org.au CC: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, nate@sri.MT.net In-reply-to: <199606160211.MAA00203@godzilla.zeta.org.au> (message from Bruce Evans on Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:11:38 +1000) Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> Bruce Evans writes: > > >> > Does anybody seriously object against putting it into GENERIC? > >> > >> Yes. It's un-necessary bloat that 95% of the users don't know how to > >> use and the other 5% know how to add it. > > >That's not true. It's relatively easy to teach people about running > >their program with a prepended `ktrace'. It's much harder to demand > >from them to first recompile a new kernel. (And i can't answer their > >questions then why it's not in the default kernel. :) Many other > >systems around ship with it enabled and ready to run by default, > >including all SysV's (truss) and Linux (strace). > > Strace seems to be more in the library. Its output is much better. Indeed. Apart from volume of output, is there any particular reason why ktrace writes to a file which kdump reads in, as opposed to using a pipe? Particularly as the first thing kdump does is freopen(tracefile, "r", stdin)! The error message is not particularly informative, either:- ktrace -f foobar ls ktrace: Ù¿ïÙ¿ï"Ù¿ï)Ù¿ï: Function not implemented. but this at least can easily be fixed:- --- ktrace.c.orig Sun Jun 16 23:59:12 1996 +++ ktrace.c Sun Jun 16 23:59:58 1996 @@ -174,7 +174,10 @@ error(name) char *name; { - (void)fprintf(stderr, "ktrace: %s: %s.\n", name, strerror(errno)); + if (errno == ENOSYS) + noktrace(); + else + (void)fprintf(stderr, "ktrace: %s: %s.\n", name, strerror(errno)); exit(1); } Not to mention the mkioctls horrors which were discussed recently... -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 18:08:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02847 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA02840 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id KAA25213; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:08:23 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:08:23 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Michael Smith cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: make core dumps while building libf2c In-Reply-To: <199606161308.WAA11465@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > Michael Hancock stands accused of saying: > > > > More info. > > > > make libraries works but make world keeps core dumping. I'm doing the > > following: > > Sounds like hardware to me. I ran a number of 'world's over the weekend > with no problems here. (Starting with 960501-SNAP as a base) I started with the same base. I have a Neptune MB with 32MB of parity memory. Neptune is slow but stable as far as I know. The SCSI is an ncr53c815 pci adapter. All of the following combinations work: make obj depend all install make include-tools make includes make lib-tools make libraries But make world always stops at the same place building the libf2c shared library. -mh From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 19:12:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA04656 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA04642 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA11393; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:02:21 +1000 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:02:21 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606170202.MAA11393@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, fcurrent@jraynard.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, nate@sri.MT.net Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >The error message is not particularly informative, either:- >ktrace -f foobar ls >ktrace: Ù¿ïÙ¿ï"Ù¿ï)Ù¿ï: Function not implemented. >but this at least can easily be fixed:- >--- ktrace.c.orig Sun Jun 16 23:59:12 1996 >+++ ktrace.c Sun Jun 16 23:59:58 1996 >@@ -174,7 +174,10 @@ > error(name) > char *name; > { >- (void)fprintf(stderr, "ktrace: %s: %s.\n", name, strerror(errno)); >+ if (errno == ENOSYS) >+ noktrace(); >+ else >+ (void)fprintf(stderr, "ktrace: %s: %s.\n", name, strerror(errno)); > exit(1); > } Why doesn't it get a SIGSYS? Answer: someone "fixed" the ktrace syscall to always exist and return ENOSYS if KTRACE is not configured. This breaks the usual handling of unimplemented syscalls, which is to generate SIGSYS and return EINVAL. Grepping for ENOSYS in /sys/kern shows the same bug in oquota() and ENOSYS being confused with ENOTTY in pipe_ioctl(). Grepping for ENOSYS in /sys shows that ENOSYS otherwise used only in (presumably unfinished parts of) the ibcs2 and linux emulators. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Sun Jun 16 21:00:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA10492 for current-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA10485; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606170400.VAA10485@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Beck Peccoz Amedeo cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ahc syncing questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:24:21 +0200." <31C41915.41C67EA6@masternet.it> Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:00:18 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > > I've got a Seagate wide HD (ST32550W) acceptinc max sync transfer >rate of 20 Mbytes/s (i.e. 10MHz). Don't confuse the issue. It syncs at a clock rate measured in MHz not MB/s. >If I set the ultra speed on the adapter >(20MHz or 40Mb/s) it still syncs at 10MHz. So far so good. Right since it can't do 20MHz. If you have an old version of the driver, you may actually be syncing at 5MHz though. I fixed the Ultra bug about a month or so ago. > A problem arises when I run a benchmark, a very silly one, that does >only read a big unfragmented file, as I get a transfer rate of only 7.4 >Mb/s, while I read of a test on the same drive/adapter leading to a transfer >rate of 16Mb/s, more than twice. Ha. That drive will not get anywhere near 16MB/s. 16Mb/s I might believe (2MB/s). To figure out the maximum you can expect from the drive, you need to look at media transfer rates, not the sync rate. A quick calculation using the RPM of the drive and its media density should get you what you want. Remember that the driver transfers short bursts of data across the SCSI bus at the negotiated sync rate, but in most cases it cannot sustain that rate throughout the entire transfer. >-- > >Beck-Peccoz Amedeo >GEA Software S.r.l. >Via Deffeyes, 1 >11025 Gressoney Saint Jean (AO) >ITALY > >Tel. ++39-125-366302 Fax. ++39-125-366415 > > -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 09:00:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09931 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09923 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA01047; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:57:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:57:56 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606171557.AA01047@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: James Raynard Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, nate@sri.MT.net Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] In-Reply-To: <199606170030.AAA10445@jraynard.demon.co.uk> References: <199606160211.MAA00203@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <199606170030.AAA10445@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > Indeed. Apart from volume of output, is there any particular reason > why ktrace writes to a file which kdump reads in, as opposed to using > a pipe? Particularly as the first thing kdump does is > freopen(tracefile, "r", stdin)! 1) The ktrace(2) system call takes a filename as its argument, not a descriptor. 2) The present approach has the advantage of not disturbing the file descriptor table of the process being debugged, so that heisenbug effects are less likely to occur. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 10:00:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA13475 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA13470 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA10807; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:41:58 +1000 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:41:58 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606171641.CAA10807@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: fcurrent@jraynard.demon.co.uk, wollman@lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, nate@sri.MT.net Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >1) The ktrace(2) system call takes a filename as its argument, not a >descriptor. I tried `mkfifo p; ktrace -f p ls'. This hung in open() until p was opened for reading by another process. Then the ktrace() syscall returned EPERM and ktrace(8) printed a garbage message (error() is miscalled with 0 args when ktrace() fails). This ktrace() error wouldn't be handled be either SIGSYS or James' checking for ENOSYS. I doubt that the kernel writes for ktrace() would work for either named or nameless pipes. They don't quite work for ufs either. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 11:06:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA16664 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA16659 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA08195; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:04:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606171804.LAA08195@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: SMP Pentium boards in Oz To: sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au (Stephen Hocking) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:04:39 -0700 (MST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606140812.IAA19478@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> from "Stephen Hocking" at Jun 14, 96 06:12:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Given the recent to-do about the SMP code, does any other Australian know of > any vendors of SMP Pentium MBs in Oz? (Work is getting a dual Pentium-166MHz > mb with 128Mb of memory via Fujitsu-ICL, but they charge like the proverbial > wounded bovine) Us non-Oz'ians are unfamiliar with the proverb... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 11:24:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17365 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miller.cs.uwm.edu (miller.cs.uwm.edu [129.89.9.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17355 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from james@localhost) by miller.cs.uwm.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA25299 for current@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:24:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:24:14 -0500 From: Jim Lowe Message-Id: <199606171824.NAA25299@miller.cs.uwm.edu> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Netbooting using a SMC8332 card/PCI-21041 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone ported the code to allow netbooting from a PCI ethernet card? -Jim From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 11:27:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17519 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17514 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id DAA03003 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 03:27:48 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 03:27:47 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: make core dumps while building libf2c In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry, about the make world traffic earlier. I had to raise the limit on open files. The memory fault error confused me. # ulimit -a core file size (blocks) unlimited data seg size (kbytes) 65536 file size (blocks) unlimited max memory size (kbytes) 29992 stack size (kbytes) 8192 cpu time (seconds) unlimited max user processes 40 pipe size (512 bytes) 1 open files 64 virtual memory (kbytes) 73728 My updated 'make world' script. #!/bin/sh ulimit -d unlimited ulimit -f unlimited ulimit -m unlimited ulimit -s unlimited ulimit -n unlimited make world 1>make.log 2>&1 A pstat while making world. # pstat -T 72/1576 files 2812 vnodes 6M/127M swap space On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Michael Hancock wrote: > Does anyone have suggestions for getting make world to complete? > > # find . -name \*\.core -print > ./obj/lib/libf2c/make.core > > # tail /usr/src/make.log > cc -fpic -DPIC -O2 -pipe -DIEEE_drem -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES -DNON_UNIX_STDIO > -c /us > r/src/lib/libf2c/../libI77/wsle.c -o wsle.so > cc -fpic -DPIC -O2 -pipe -DIEEE_drem -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES -DNON_UNIX_STDIO > -c /us > r/src/lib/libf2c/../libI77/wsne.c -o wsne.so > cc -fpic -DPIC -O2 -pipe -DIEEE_drem -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES -DNON_UNIX_STDIO > -c /us > r/src/lib/libf2c/../libI77/xwsne.c -o xwsne.so > building shared f2c library (version 2.0) > *** Error code 139 > > Stop. > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 13:13:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA24801 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA24796 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.20]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <16033(10)>; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:12:25 PDT Received: from gnu.mc.xerox.com (gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com) by gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-TB) id AA07747; Mon, 17 Jun 96 16:11:51 EDT Received: by gnu.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19424; Mon, 17 Jun 96 16:11:50 EDT Message-Id: <9606172011.AA19424@gnu.mc.xerox.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: Bruce Evans Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, nate@sri.mt.net Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 15 Jun 1996 19:11:38 PDT." <199606160211.MAA00203@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:11:47 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I like Rick Sladkey's strace (I use it on sun and linux). Since it runs on sun, how hard would it be to port to freebsd? I don't like the attitude: If you want to do something, recompile the kernel. strace is incredibly useful (I've never used ktrace, I've never had a kernel with support for it...or learned how to use it). I really find the flexibility of strace very good (the little I read about ktrace, its much more limited ). It also has all types of nice ability to filter selective calls. -- marty leisner@sdsp.mc.xerox.com Member of the League for Programming Freedom From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 13:20:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA25360 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA25330 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA29239; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:14:45 -0600 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:14:45 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606172014.OAA29239@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Marty Leisner" Cc: Bruce Evans , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, nate@sri.MT.net Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] In-Reply-To: <9606172011.AA19424@gnu.mc.xerox.com> References: <199606160211.MAA00203@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <9606172011.AA19424@gnu.mc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I like Rick Sladkey's strace (I use it on sun and linux). > > Since it runs on sun, how hard would it be to port to freebsd? > > I don't like the attitude: > If you want to do something, recompile the kernel. OK, how about this attitude: If you want something in FreeBSD, port it and submit it and it might make it into the system. :) (That's what you get for Cc'ing me on the email. *grin*) Nate From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 15:56:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA07034 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ec.camitel.com ([206.231.123.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07025 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ccote@localhost) by ec.camitel.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA21469 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:54:42 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:54:42 -0400 From: Claude Côté Message-Id: <199606172254.SAA21469@ec.camitel.com> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: 2.2-960612-SNAP: libX11.so.6.0 missing? Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I've just installed the 2.2-960612-SNAP (by the way, the sysinstall program works great!) When I reboot my machine, everything seems fine, but when I try to start X (with startx) I get this error: ld.so failed: can't find shared library "libX11.so.6.0" I checked in /usr/X11R6/lib and it looks like the following libraries are missing (they are not in X312bin.tgz neither): libX11.so.6.0 libXaw.so.6.0 libXext.so.6.0 libXtst.so.6.0 (however libX11.a, libXaw.a, libXext.a and libXtst.a are there) Anyone else have encountered this problem? For now, can someone tell me how to get the missing libraries without rebuilding XFree86? It will be very appreciated! Thank, Claude From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 16:15:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08275 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (pp@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA08259 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au id <25335-0@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:14:47 +1000 Received: from netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id JAA13715; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:15:36 +1000 Received: from localhost by netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.8.1/DEVETIR-0.1) id XAA17007; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:17:11 GMT Message-Id: <199606172317.XAA17007@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Terry Lambert cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SMP Pentium boards in Oz In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:04:39 MST." <199606171804.LAA08195@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Face: 3}heU+2?b->-GSF-G4T4>jEB9~FR(V9lo&o>kAy=Pj&;oVOc<|pr%I/VSG"ZD32J>5gGC0N 7gj]^GI@M:LlqNd]|(2OxOxy@$6@/!,";-!OlucF^=jq8s57$%qXd/ieC8DhWmIy@J1AcnvSGV\|*! >Bvu7+0h4zCY^]{AxXKsDTlgA2m]fX$W@'8ev-Qi+-;%L'CcZ'NBL!@n?}q!M&Em3*eW7,093nOeV8 M)(u+6D;%B7j\XA/9j4!Gj~&jYzflG[#)E9sI&Xe9~y~Gn%fA7>F:YKr"Wx4cZU*6{^2ocZ!YyR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:17:10 +1000 From: Stephen Hocking Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>(Work is getting a dual Pentium-166MHz >> mb with 128Mb of memory via Fujitsu-ICL, but they charge like the proverbial >> wounded bovine) > > Us non-Oz'ians are unfamiliar with the proverb... > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org "Charging like a wounded bull" - means bloody expensive, high priced et cetera. They make reasonable gear, but you always end up paying. Stephen -- The views expressed above are not those of the Worker's Compensation Board of Queensland, Australia. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 17:55:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13219 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA13211 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (ao111.du.pipex.com [193.130.254.111]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id RAA28147 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:55:09 -0700 Received: (from fcurrent@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id OAA10606; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:37:54 GMT Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:37:54 GMT Message-Id: <199606171437.OAA10606@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: bde@zeta.org.au CC: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, nate@sri.MT.net In-reply-to: <199606170202.MAA11393@godzilla.zeta.org.au> (message from Bruce Evans on Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:02:21 +1000) Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >The error message is not particularly informative, either:- > >ktrace -f foobar ls > >ktrace: "): Function not implemented. This has obviously been through something that's not 8-bit clean. The actual error message was ktrace: U?iU?i"U?i)U?i: Function not implemented. where 'U' was a capital U with a grave accent, '?' was an inverted question mark and 'i' was a lower case i with an umlaut! In fact, this is caused by error() being invoked without any arguments. NetBSD's ktrace implementation does this much more cleanly, using err() and warn(). Any objections if I make the necessary modifications? > Why doesn't it get a SIGSYS? Answer: someone "fixed" the ktrace syscall to > always exist and return ENOSYS if KTRACE is not configured. This breaks the > usual handling of unimplemented syscalls, which is to generate SIGSYS and > return EINVAL. Thanks, I was wondering about that. Presumably this can be "un-fixed" in the obvious way (ie shuffling some #ifdef/#endif's around)? > Grepping for ENOSYS in /sys/kern shows the same bug in oquota() and ENOSYS > being confused with ENOTTY in pipe_ioctl(). Ditto? Cheers -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 19:17:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA17864 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA17850 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA01297; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:12:00 +1000 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:12:00 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606180212.MAA01297@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, fcurrent@jraynard.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de, nate@sri.MT.net Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >ktrace: U?iU?i"U?i)U?i: Function not implemented. >In fact, this is caused by error() being invoked without any arguments. >NetBSD's ktrace implementation does this much more cleanly, using err() >and warn(). Any objections if I make the necessary modifications? Yes, these modifications should be made by mergeing with 4.4Lite2. Always look at Lite2 for cosmetic changes before adding them yourself. 4.4Lite2 also added a lot of function prototypes and ANSIFications (index -> strchr etc.). >> Why doesn't it get a SIGSYS? Answer: someone "fixed" the ktrace syscall to >> always exist and return ENOSYS if KTRACE is not configured. This breaks the >> usual handling of unimplemented syscalls, which is to generate SIGSYS and >> return EINVAL. >Thanks, I was wondering about that. Presumably this can be "un-fixed" >in the obvious way (ie shuffling some #ifdef/#endif's around)? No, the the obvious fix of restoring `#ifdef KTRACE' to init_sysent.c doesn't work because KTRACE is surely not defined because it is defined in opt_ktrace.h which isn't included by init_sysent.c. It's too much trouble to support options files in makesyscalls.sh. The correct fix seems to be `return (enosys(...));' instead of `return ENOSYS;'. >> Grepping for ENOSYS in /sys/kern shows the same bug in oquota() and ENOSYS >> being confused with ENOTTY in pipe_ioctl(). oquota() is probably similar, and pipe_ioctl() just needs a substitution. Lots of ioctl routines need need a similar substitution of EINVAL with ENOTTY. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 21:37:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA25315 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA25301 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id NAA07940 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:37:19 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:37:19 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: make core dumps while building libf2c In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My info was a little bogus the make world script below fails everytime at the same place if I launch it from csh. If I start bash and do the script below it works. I don't use the root account much except to build the sources, so I left it as csh. Why does this make a difference? > #!/bin/sh > ulimit -d unlimited > ulimit -f unlimited > ulimit -m unlimited > ulimit -s unlimited > ulimit -n unlimited > make world 1>make.log 2>&1 -mike hancock From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 21:37:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA25347 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA25340 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA01604; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:36:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Claude C t cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.2-960612-SNAP: libX11.so.6.0 missing? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:54:42 EDT." <199606172254.SAA21469@ec.camitel.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:36:54 -0700 Message-ID: <1602.835072614@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > When I reboot my machine, everything seems fine, but when I try to start X > (with startx) I get this error: grab XF86311/X312bin.tgz again - I fixed it this morning. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 22:25:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA29465 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ice.fit.qut.edu.au (tony@ice.fit.qut.edu.au [131.181.2.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA29453; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tony@localhost) by ice.fit.qut.edu.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA07770; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:25:38 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:25:36 +1000 (EST) From: Tony Jago To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Bug in NFS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: T.Jago@fit.qut.edu.au Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi there, I think I have found a bug in the 2.2-current nfs code. I am exporting the /dev directory to a client but it seem that the minor number of the devices are changed across the nfs mount. On the server: brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 0x00010002 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 On the client: brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 2 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 Thanks in advance for your help. --- Tony Jago, System Administrator, E-Mail: T.Jago@fit.qut.edu.au Faculty of Information Technology, Web: http://www.fit.qut.edu.au/staff/~tony Queensland University of Technology. Box 2434, Brisbane 4001, AUSTRALIA. "We need more horsepower!" Phone: +61 7 3864-2573 Fax: +61 7 3864-1959 From owner-freebsd-current Mon Jun 17 23:51:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04865 for current-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04859 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA17165; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:50:44 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA18652; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:50:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA07755; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:33:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606180633.IAA07755@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 2.2-960612-SNAP: libX11.so.6.0 missing? To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:33:43 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: ccote@ec.camitel.com (Claude Côté) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606172254.SAA21469@ec.camitel.com> from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claude_C=F4t=E9?= at "Jun 17, 96 06:54:42 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Claude Côté wrote: > ld.so failed: can't find shared library "libX11.so.6.0" > > I checked in /usr/X11R6/lib and it looks like the following libraries are > missing (they are not in X312bin.tgz neither): > > libX11.so.6.0 > libXaw.so.6.0 > libXext.so.6.0 > libXtst.so.6.0 They have been replaced by .so.6.1 successors. (At least in the X11 development sources -- i don't have the SNAP handy for reference.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 00:06:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA05408 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA05403 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA13025; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:58:09 +1000 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:58:09 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606180658.QAA13025@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, tony@fit.qut.edu.au Subject: Re: Bug in NFS Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi there, I think I have found a bug in the 2.2-current nfs code. I am > exporting the /dev directory to a client but it seem that the minor > number of the devices are changed across the nfs mount. > On the server: > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 0x00010002 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 > On the client: > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 2 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 NFS only supports 16-bit device numbers so it can't possibly preserve 32-bit device numbers if the high bits are actually used. This is the problem here. More fundamentally, device numbers aren't portable across OS's, so they shouldn't be exported. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 00:29:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA06215 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ice.fit.qut.edu.au (tony@ice.fit.qut.edu.au [131.181.2.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA06197; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tony@localhost) by ice.fit.qut.edu.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10144; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:29:31 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:29:28 +1000 (EST) From: Tony Jago To: Bruce Evans cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-Reply-To: <199606180658.QAA13025@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: T.Jago@fit.qut.edu.au Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Bruce Evans wrote: > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:58:09 +1000 > From: Bruce Evans > To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, tony@fit.qut.edu.au > Subject: Re: Bug in NFS > > > Hi there, I think I have found a bug in the 2.2-current nfs code. I am > > exporting the /dev directory to a client but it seem that the minor > > number of the devices are changed across the nfs mount. > > > On the server: > > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 0x00010002 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 > > > On the client: > > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 2 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 > > NFS only supports 16-bit device numbers so it can't possibly preserve > 32-bit device numbers if the high bits are actually used. This is the > problem here. More fundamentally, device numbers aren't portable across > OS's, so they shouldn't be exported. > > Bruce > Bruce, I am of course using the same OS on each machine. Actually I am using the wonderfull FreeBSD netboot system to build a diskless client system. Since I have no local UFS filesystems its really hard to get a working /dev directory. The machine still have a hard drive and I would like to put some swap space on it. Hope this makes things clearer. --- Tony Jago, System Administrator, E-Mail: T.Jago@fit.qut.edu.au Faculty of Information Technology, Web: http://www.fit.qut.edu.au/staff/~tony Queensland University of Technology. Box 2434, Brisbane 4001, AUSTRALIA. "We need more horsepower!" Phone: +61 7 3864-2573 Fax: +61 7 3864-1959 From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 00:48:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA07361 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07348 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA18400; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:20:46 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA18854; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:20:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA08133; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:19:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606180719.JAA08133@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Bug in NFS To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:19:05 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: tony@fit.qut.edu.au (Tony Jago) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Tony Jago at "Jun 18, 96 03:25:36 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Tony Jago wrote: > Hi there, I think I have found a bug in the 2.2-current nfs code. I am > exporting the /dev directory to a client but it seem that the minor > number of the devices are changed across the nfs mount. > > On the server: > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 0x00010002 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 > > On the client: > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 2 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 That's probably for historical reasons (where major and minor numbers were limited to 8 bits each). Does it also happen when you use NFSv3? (The NFS spec seems to use a 32-bit integer to pass the `rdev' field, so it's IMHO not strictly necessary to limit the information.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 00:48:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA07390 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07383 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA14812; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:40:22 +1000 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:40:22 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606180740.RAA14812@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, tony@fit.qut.edu.au Subject: Re: Bug in NFS Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Bruce, I am of course using the same OS on each machine. Actually I am > using the wonderfull FreeBSD netboot system to build a diskless client > system. Since I have no local UFS filesystems its really hard to get a > working /dev directory. The machine still have a hard drive and I would > like to put some swap space on it. Hope this makes things clearer. Use only devices which have numbers (on the server) < 64K (e.g., wd0b) and don't manage devices from the client. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 00:58:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA07868 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ice.fit.qut.edu.au (tony@ice.fit.qut.edu.au [131.181.2.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA07863; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tony@localhost) by ice.fit.qut.edu.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10741; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:56:32 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:56:30 +1000 (EST) From: Tony Jago Reply-To: Tony Jago To: Joerg Wunsch cc: FreeBSD-current users , Bruce Evans Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-Reply-To: <199606180719.JAA08133@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: T.Jago@fit.qut.edu.au Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > From: J Wunsch > > As Tony Jago wrote: > > > Hi there, I think I have found a bug in the 2.2-current nfs code. I am > > exporting the /dev directory to a client but it seem that the minor > > number of the devices are changed across the nfs mount. > > > > On the server: > > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 0x00010002 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 > > > > On the client: > > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 2 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 > > That's probably for historical reasons (where major and minor numbers > were limited to 8 bits each). Does it also happen when you use NFSv3? > > (The NFS spec seems to use a 32-bit integer to pass the `rdev' field, > so it's IMHO not strictly necessary to limit the information.) > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) I am using NFSv3 in fact after a bit of testing that seems to be the problem!!! If I use NFSv2 then it works fine. I smell a bug.... --- Tony Jago, System Administrator, E-Mail: T.Jago@fit.qut.edu.au Faculty of Information Technology, Web: http://www.fit.qut.edu.au/staff/~tony Queensland University of Technology. Box 2434, Brisbane 4001, AUSTRALIA. "We need more horsepower!" Phone: +61 7 3864-2573 Fax: +61 7 3864-1959 From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 02:36:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA13324 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA13277 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA07763; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606180935.CAA07763@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Bug in NFS To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:35:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606180740.RAA14812@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jun 18, 96 05:40:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk or use DEVFS on the client > > > > Bruce, I am of course using the same OS on each machine. Actually I am > > using the wonderfull FreeBSD netboot system to build a diskless client > > system. Since I have no local UFS filesystems its really hard to get a > > working /dev directory. The machine still have a hard drive and I would > > like to put some swap space on it. Hope this makes things clearer. > > Use only devices which have numbers (on the server) < 64K (e.g., wd0b) > and don't manage devices from the client. > > Bruce > From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 07:14:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA28051 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-140.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.140]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA28043 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jhs@localhost) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA01849; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:18:38 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:18:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606181018.MAA01849@vector.jhs.no_domain> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: jhs fixes & additions From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk All my accumulated src & ports patches & new stuff is on http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/ src/generic/ & src/jhs/ & ports/generic/ & ports/jhs/ & script: bsd/fixes/customise I run all this stuff localy, but generic/ stuff is probably of general interest. Of course I don't just leave the stuff there, new stuff I post. It's all laid out in parallel (to src/ & ports/) tree structure There's a sys/Makefile a ports/mail/exmh & loads more, Share & Enjoy :-) (& feel free to commit whatever you like :-) Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 07:14:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA28083 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-140.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.140]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA28050; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jhs@localhost) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA01844; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:14:49 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:14:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606181014.MAA01844@vector.jhs.no_domain> To: current@freebsd.org cc: jkh@freebsd.org Subject: xditview From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems xditview was removed from src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/ (with today's just received ctm patch: src-cur.1896) I seem to recall someone complaining it wouldnt compile if there was no X tree resident, could it have been removed just because of that ? ! A better solution may be something like: src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/Makefile: .if exists(${X11BASE}/include) .if exists(${X11BASE}/lib) SUBDIR +=xditview Could whoever removed xditview please consider restoring it, & adding a .if exists ? Losing functionality seems questionable, as even if net people aren't using it, at next cd-rom upgrade, it'll likely sting some non-net users. (& BTW I guess it's good to remember: Those silent non code contributing FreeBSD users are still useful, as customers of WC & FreeBSD consultants :-) ) PS I detected this as ctm reported "md5 mismatch" as I had the following patch in use: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/generic/gnu/usr.bin/groff/xditview/Makefile.DESTDIR.diff ============== If you happen to compile with something like DESTDIR=/usr/dest//usr2/data/freebsd/src.940225 & that DESTDIR has no X386 tree, it doesnt compile. If you later say, "yes that compiled clean, Im happy, install in /" (which does have an X tree) setenv DESTDIR / make install it blows up because it never compiled ! Solution: compile on one set of if's install on a larger set of if's *** old/src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/xditview/Makefile Sat Dec 3 19:40:18 1994 --- new/src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/xditview/Makefile Sat Dec 3 19:44:23 1994 *************** *** 1,8 **** .if exists(${X11BASE}/include) .if exists(${X11BASE}/lib) - .if exists(${DESTDIR}${X11BASE}/bin) - .if exists(${DESTDIR}${X11BASE}/man/man1) - .if exists(${DESTDIR}${X11BASE}/lib/X11/app-defaults) BINDIR= ${X11BASE}/bin MANDIR= ${X11BASE}/man/man --- 1,5 ---- *************** *** 17,22 **** --- 14,22 ---- ${X11BASE}/lib/libXt.a ${X11BASE}/lib/libXext.a \ ${X11BASE}/lib/libX11.a + .if exists(${DESTDIR}${X11BASE}/bin) + .if exists(${DESTDIR}${X11BASE}/man/man1) + .if exists(${DESTDIR}${X11BASE}/lib/X11/app-defaults) afterinstall: install -c -o ${BINOWN} -g ${BINGRP} -m 444 \ ${.CURDIR}/GXditview.ad \ ============== Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 07:35:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA29678 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA29670; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA00294; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:35:28 -0700 (PDT) To: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: current@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: xditview In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:14:49 +0200." <199606181014.MAA01844@vector.jhs.no_domain> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:35:28 -0700 Message-ID: <292.835108528@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I seem to recall someone complaining it wouldnt compile if there was no > X tree resident, could it have been removed just because of that ? ! Well, if ones source tree were 99% X source code free, wouldn't you be tempted to go for that final 1%? :-) In any case, I think the handwriting is on the wall for a different approach to packages like groff and gcc (encapsulation) and, if/when that happens, things like xditview will magically "come back" for free. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 07:50:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA00832 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br (root@cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.2.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA00827 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA11741 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:49:54 -0300 (EST) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199606181449.LAA11741@mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Problems boot 2.2-SNAP To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:49:53 -0300 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL14 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm trying to install 2.2-SNAP on my desktop machine, which is already running 2.1.0-RELEASE. But both 960501 and 960612 SNAPs could not boot in it. It loads from the floppy, uncompresses itself and print the message "Booting ...". After this, nothing more happens. I have installed it on other machines, so I think it's not my fault. This machine is a 486DX2/66, 40 MB RAM (no parity), Chipset ALI, VESA BUS, Cirrus SVGA, NE2000 NIC, 2 IDE Drives. Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 ( Job ) jonny@cisi.coppe.ufrj.br Network Manager UFRJ/COPPE/CISI Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 08:01:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01645 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01633 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id BAA01439 for current@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:01:08 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199606181501.BAA01439@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: laptop installations To: current@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:01:08 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Laptops appear to be a significant installation nightmare .. unless you have a CDROM or a full set of floppies you end up using the serial port (and many, many hours). Maybe I've missed something but it seems that, by default, even though I have this ethernet card plugged in the side of the machine, I have no way of capitalising on the bandwidth of the T3 its default gateway's plugged into. Are there any issues wrt having pcmcia slots enabled in the generic kernel ? I currently have a D-link (ne2000 compat?) installed but have had a 3c589 with similar results .. the inabilty to use it, michael From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 08:12:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02566 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA02561 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA00799; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:12:25 -0700 (PDT) To: michael butler cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptop installations In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:01:08 +1000." <199606181501.BAA01439@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:12:25 -0700 Message-ID: <797.835110745@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Laptops appear to be a significant installation nightmare .. unless you have > a CDROM or a full set of floppies you end up using the serial port (and > many, many hours). Or a parallel cable and not so many hours (and at 115.5Kb, it's not THAT many hours for serial). > Maybe I've missed something but it seems that, by default, even though I have > this ethernet card plugged in the side of the machine, I have no way of > capitalising on the bandwidth of the T3 its default gateway's plugged into. I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you get a 10Mbit ethernet card working, it will give you 10Mbits. This doesn't change just because you're on a laptop. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 08:21:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03065 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03053 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA01819; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:21:00 -0600 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:21:00 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606181521.JAA01819@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: michael butler Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptop installations In-Reply-To: <199606181501.BAA01439@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> References: <199606181501.BAA01439@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Laptops appear to be a significant installation nightmare .. unless you have > a CDROM or a full set of floppies you end up using the serial port (and > many, many hours). It's getting better, but things aren't great yet. > Maybe I've missed something but it seems that, by default, even though I have > this ethernet card plugged in the side of the machine, I have no way of > capitalising on the bandwidth of the T3 its default gateway's plugged into. If you have one of the two 'supported' cards for 2.1R (or some clones) then it will work fine. You do have one, I don't know about the other. > Are there any issues wrt having pcmcia slots enabled in the generic kernel ? > > I currently have a D-link (ne2000 compat?) installed but have had a 3c589 > with similar results .. the inabilty to use it, The 3C589 card is supported by *all* recent FreeBSD releases. However, 2.1R does not support the newer 3C589C cards (which were released *after* 2.1R). A simple patch to the driver allowed the newer cards to work so any of the newer SNAP floppies should work fine with the 3C589. However, you must configure the SRAM on the cards under DOS using the 3c589cfg.exe program supplied by 3COM and then read back *all* of the necessary information. Then, boot with '-c' and make sure FreeBSD's zp0 driver is configured with the same information. I've been using it for over a year now with my 3C589 cards. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 08:23:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03171 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03166 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id BAA02148 Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:23:22 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199606181523.BAA02148@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: laptop installations To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:23:21 +1000 (EST) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <797.835110745@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 18, 96 08:12:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you get a 10Mbit ethernet card > working, it will give you 10Mbits. This doesn't change just because > you're on a laptop. :-) Only that I'd love to be able to get the full 10 megabits available to it rather than whatever this USR can give me at 33k6, michael (sitting in a workshop 17hrs flying time from home) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 09:00:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA05677 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from absolut-zero.winternet.com (root@absolut-zero.winternet.com [198.174.169.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA05670 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tundra.winternet.com (nordquis@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11]) by absolut-zero.winternet.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id KAA23656 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:59:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nordquis@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.7.4/8.6.12) id KAA23715 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:56:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Brent Nordquist Posted-Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:56:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606181556.KAA23715@tundra.winternet.com> Subject: usr.sbin/keyadmin compile breakage (-current) To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:56:12 -0500 (CDT) Reply-to: nordquis@winternet.com (Brent J. Nordquist) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ===> usr.sbin/keyadmin cc -O -c /usr/src/usr.sbin/keyadmin/keyadmin.c /usr/src/usr.sbin/keyadmin/keyadmin.c: In function `main': /usr/src/usr.sbin/keyadmin/keyadmin.c:1166: `AF_KEY' undeclared (first use this function) ...and it dies. I sup'ed last night (ending at 4AM) from sup.freebsd.org. -- Brent J. Nordquist Which is worse: ignorance or apathy? nordquis@winternet.com ...Who knows? +1 612 827-2747 ...Who cares? From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 09:16:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07025 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07019; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA07529; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:30:26 -0700 (PDT) To: Bruce Evans cc: tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:40:22 +1000." <199606180740.RAA14812@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:30:24 -0700 Message-ID: <7527.835108224@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606180740.RAA14812@godzilla.zeta.org.au>, Bruce Evans writes: >> Bruce, I am of course using the same OS on each machine. Actually I am >> using the wonderfull FreeBSD netboot system to build a diskless client >> system. Since I have no local UFS filesystems its really hard to get a >> working /dev directory. The machine still have a hard drive and I would >> like to put some swap space on it. Hope this makes things clearer. > >Use only devices which have numbers (on the server) < 64K (e.g., wd0b) >and don't manage devices from the client. Or use devfs ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 09:21:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07274 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA07269 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA09196; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:21:48 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:21:48 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606181621.AA09196@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: nordquis@winternet.com (Brent J. Nordquist) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: usr.sbin/keyadmin compile breakage (-current) In-Reply-To: <199606181556.KAA23715@tundra.winternet.com> References: <199606181556.KAA23715@tundra.winternet.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > ===> usr.sbin/keyadmin > cc -O -c /usr/src/usr.sbin/keyadmin/keyadmin.c > /usr/src/usr.sbin/keyadmin/keyadmin.c: In function `main': > /usr/src/usr.sbin/keyadmin/keyadmin.c:1166: `AF_KEY' undeclared (first use this function) > ...and it dies. I sup'ed last night (ending at 4AM) from sup.freebsd.org. This is now fixed as of a few hours ago. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 09:26:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07572 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07563; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07776; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:25:58 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: michael butler , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: laptop installations In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:12:25 PDT." <797.835110745@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:25:57 -0700 Message-ID: <7774.835115157@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you get a 10Mbit ethernet card >working, it will give you 10Mbits. This doesn't change just because >you're on a laptop. :-) Well, some laptops do have slower busses and some pcmcia cards are slow by themselves... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 10:08:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA10109 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA10079 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id QAA29468; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:12:01 +0100 (BST) To: Tony Jago cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:25:36 +1000." Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:11:59 +0100 Message-ID: <29466.835110719@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tony Jago wrote in message ID : > > Hi there, I think I have found a bug in the 2.2-current nfs code. I am > exporting the /dev directory to a client but it seem that the minor > number of the devices are changed across the nfs mount. > > On the server: > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 0x00010002 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 > > On the client: > brw-r----- 1 root operator 0, 2 Jun 19 00:32 /dev/wd0 > > Thanks in advance for your help. This is probably because NFS can't handle ``large'' major/minor numbers (my guess is that they are truncated down to 8 bits for encoding into the structure passed back and forth). Just like you can't do 4.4BSD ``flags'' (see chflags(1)) over NFS. (You have to remember that NFS v2 came about BEFORE people started needing lots of these ``new'' features, and it can't cope ... ) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 10:27:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA11471 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA11453 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id SAA00261; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:23:03 +0100 (BST) To: JULIAN Elischer cc: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans), tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:35:29 PDT." <199606180935.CAA07763@ref.tfs.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:23:02 +0100 Message-ID: <259.835118582@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk JULIAN Elischer wrote in message ID <199606180935.CAA07763@ref.tfs.com>: > or use DEVFS on the client And pray that no-one does `ls -l' on /dev (see recent PR submitted by myself on this ... it was in exactly (well, not quite) this situation that I experienced the problem ... diskless m/c netbooting...) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 11:00:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13761 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utgard.bga.com (utgard.bga.com [205.238.129.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA13751 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from faulkner@localhost) by utgard.bga.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02166 for current@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:00:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606181800.NAA02166@utgard.bga.com> Subject: supservers To: current@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:00:52 -0459 (CDT) From: "Boyd R. Faulkner" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Where did sup2.freebsd.org go? I have switched to sup5 but I am receiving, not updating every file I have. This could take a while. Anybody have a clue? Thanks, Boyd -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Boyd Faulkner "The fates lead him who will; faulkner@asgard.bga.com Him who won't, they drag." http://asgard.bga.com/~faulkner Old Roman Saying -- Source: Joseph Campbell _____________________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 11:11:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA14263 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (ppp-5-57.rdcy01.pacbell.net [206.170.5.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14258; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09976; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606181810.LAA09976@precipice.shockwave.com> To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Bruce Evans , tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:30:24 PDT." <7527.835108224@critter.tfs.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:10:45 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is symbolic link support working in devfs? I need to do little things like ln -s /dev/cuaa1 /dev/gps0 for xntpd. It was my understanding that no further development is going into devfs and that it's not ready for prime-time without symlinks and permission changes. Please tell me I'm wrong? Paul From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In message <199606180740.RAA14812@godzilla.zeta.org.au>, Bruce Evans writes: >> Bruce, I am of course using the same OS on each machine. Actually I am >> using the wonderfull FreeBSD netboot system to build a diskless client >> system. Since I have no local UFS filesystems its really hard to get a >> working /dev directory. The machine still have a hard drive and I would >> like to put some swap space on it. Hope this makes things clearer. > >Use only devices which have numbers (on the server) < 64K (e.g., wd0b) >and don't manage devices from the client. Or use devfs ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, In >>c. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 11:15:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA14604 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14598; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA11088; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:14:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Paul Traina cc: Bruce Evans , tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:10:45 PDT." <199606181810.LAA09976@precipice.shockwave.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:14:29 -0700 Message-ID: <11086.835121669@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606181810.LAA09976@precipice.shockwave.com>, Paul Traina writes: >Is symbolic link support working in devfs? > >I need to do little things like ln -s /dev/cuaa1 /dev/gps0 >for xntpd. For xntpd you can do ln -s /dev/cuaa1 /etc/gps0 and it will work :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 11:22:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA15111 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15104 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I62DTDOCXS002MUU@mail.rwth-aachen.de> for freebsd-current@freefall.FreeBSD.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:46:54 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA11020 for freebsd-current@freefall.cdrom.com; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:55:31 +0200 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:55:31 +0200 From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: if_ed.c prototype glitch To: freebsd-current@freefall.FreeBSD.org Message-id: <199606181755.TAA11020@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Maybe already fixed but anyway: ../.. -I../../sys -I../../../include -DI486_CPU -DGUSMAX -DLINUX -DCOMPAT_43 -DCD9660 -DMSDOSFS -DNFS -DFFS -DINET -DKERNEL ../../i386/isa/if_ed.c ../../i386/isa/if_ed.c:2105: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 11:53:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17371 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17365 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I62E67UKJK002O2N@mail.rwth-aachen.de> for freebsd-current@freefall.FreeBSD.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:56:28 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA11040 for freebsd-current@freefall.cdrom.com; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:05:06 +0200 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:05:06 +0200 From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: reboot beeps To: freebsd-current@freefall.FreeBSD.org Message-id: <199606181805.UAA11040@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I installed a three days old kernel today - maybe one shouldn't do, eh? Anyway, it costs me a drive to the campus at present when I type sync ; reboot since it hangs with a black screen and beeps. This machine has been one of my most reliably remotely rebootable machines for over a year. I understand that there were changes in the keyboard reset code (delays etc.) but that it has to be broken so miserably... I added a second WD8013 card though but I can't imagine that being the culprit. I'll build a very recent kernel now to see if it's still there. --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 12:13:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA18393 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA18381; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <15280(11)>; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:12:42 PDT Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177476>; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:12:39 -0700 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: sos@freebsd.org cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), wollman@lcs.mit.edu, jkh@freefall.freebsd.org, current@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:04:16 PDT." <199606112104.XAA19193@DeepCore.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:12:34 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Jun18.121239pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606112104.XAA19193@DeepCore.dk>you write: >Allso the kernel has begun to spit out: >arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo for 10.0.0.3 Oh, how I hate the merged arp/route table. What does your routing table look like when you see these messages? Thanks, Bill From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 12:19:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA19306 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA19283 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA28852; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:18:42 -0700 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199606181918.MAA28852@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: reboot beeps To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph P. Kukulies) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-current@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606181805.UAA11040@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from "Christoph P. Kukulies" at "Jun 18, 96 08:05:06 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I installed a three days old kernel today - maybe one shouldn't do, eh? > Anyway, it costs me a drive to the campus at present when I > type > > sync ; reboot > > since it hangs with a black screen and beeps. This machine has been one > of my most reliably remotely rebootable machines for over a year. I > understand that there were changes in the keyboard reset code (delays etc.) > but that it has to be broken so miserably... > > I added a second WD8013 card though but I can't imagine that being the > culprit. Infact it is very likely the culprit. This is a 16-bit shared memory card, and you can not mix 8-bit and 16-bit memory access in the same 128K bios/shared memory area between 640K and 1M. For example, if you have an 8-bit BIOS at C800 you can't put a 16-bit shared memory card at CC00. The symptoms of doing this are exactly what you are getting. A hard reset will cure it, as that usually disables the shared memory on the SMC8013 until the driver turns it back on. > > I'll build a very recent kernel now to see if it's still there. > > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 12:35:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA21213 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utgard.bga.com (utgard.bga.com [205.238.129.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA21204 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from faulkner@localhost) by utgard.bga.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02736 for current@freebsd.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:35:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606181935.OAA02736@utgard.bga.com> Subject: supservers To: current@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:35:40 -0459 (CDT) From: "Boyd R. Faulkner" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Never mind. I broke my supfile during the conversion. I am curious what happened to sup.freebsd.org though. Thanks again, Boyd -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Boyd Faulkner "The fates lead him who will; faulkner@asgard.bga.com Him who won't, they drag." http://asgard.bga.com/~faulkner Old Roman Saying -- Source: Joseph Campbell _____________________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 13:27:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA23948 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA23937; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA22166; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:26:40 +0200 Message-Id: <199606182026.WAA22166@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly.. To: fenner@parc.xerox.com (Bill Fenner) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:26:40 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, wollman@lcs.mit.edu, jkh@freefall.freebsd.org, current@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <96Jun18.121239pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> from "Bill Fenner" at Jun 18, 96 12:12:34 pm From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Bill Fenner who wrote: > > In message <199606112104.XAA19193@DeepCore.dk>you write: > >Allso the kernel has begun to spit out: > >arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo for 10.0.0.3 > > Oh, how I hate the merged arp/route table. > > What does your routing table look like when you see these messages? > Well, to be honest I've switched back to the old routed :( The new routed gives me all kinds of trouble, it even messes up my PPP connection and the nameserver info etc I get automatically that way. For me the new routed is UNUSABLE... Last I saw (and remember) it practically deleted all my routes so I had to put them in staically to get a usable network. (And no my config is not exotic or something) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 13:41:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA25024 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA25008 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA12138; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:41:08 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:41:08 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606182041.AA12138@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: sos@freebsd.org Cc: current@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly.. In-Reply-To: <199606182026.WAA22166@ra.dkuug.dk> References: <96Jun18.121239pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> <199606182026.WAA22166@ra.dkuug.dk> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < Last I saw (and remember) it practically deleted all my routes so > I had to put them in staically to get a usable network. > (And no my config is not exotic or something) I am collecting new-routed bugs. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 14:22:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA27824 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA27812 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA24697 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:22:27 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA26970 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:22:27 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09482 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:13:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606182113.XAA09482@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Bug in NFS To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:13:17 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Tony Jago at "Jun 18, 96 05:56:30 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Tony Jago wrote: > > (The NFS spec seems to use a 32-bit integer to pass the `rdev' field, > > so it's IMHO not strictly necessary to limit the information.) > I am using NFSv3 in fact after a bit of testing that seems to be the > problem!!! If I use NFSv2 then it works fine. I smell a bug.... Oooops. In NFS v3, both the major and the minor number are allowed to be 32 bits. I assume something has been over-eager in stripping them down. specdata3 struct specdata3 { uint32 specdata1; uint32 specdata2; }; The interpretation of the two words depends on the type of file system object. For a block special (NF3BLK) or character special (NF3CHR) specdata1 and specdata2 are the major and minor device numbers, repectively. (This is obviously a UNIX-specific interpretation.) For all other file types, these two words should either be set to 0 or the values should be agreed upon by the client and server. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 14:23:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA27935 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA27837 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA24712 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:22:34 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA26975 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:22:34 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA09432 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:01:23 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606182101.XAA09432@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Bug in NFS To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:01:23 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606180935.CAA07763@ref.tfs.com> from JULIAN Elischer at "Jun 18, 96 02:35:29 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As JULIAN Elischer wrote: > or use DEVFS on the client Bad advise. I would actually use it if it were already usable. I have no idea how to help that these would disappear: Device od0a: name slot allocation failed (E=17) Device rod0a: name slot allocation failed (E=17) Device od0c: name slot allocation failed (E=17) Device rod0c: name slot allocation failed (E=17) Device od0a: name slot allocation failed (E=17) Device rod0a: name slot allocation failed (E=17) Device od0c: name slot allocation failed (E=17) Device rod0c: name slot allocation failed (E=17) ...Nor do i want to duplicate your efforts to implement symlinks, so we could finally get rid of the /dev/log problem. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 14:57:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01069 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01061; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03615; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606182148.OAA03615@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: Bug in NFS To: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:48:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: phk@FreeBSD.org, bde@zeta.org.au, tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606181810.LAA09976@precipice.shockwave.com> from "Paul Traina" at Jun 18, 96 11:10:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Is symbolic link support working in devfs? > > I need to do little things like ln -s /dev/cuaa1 /dev/gps0 > for xntpd. > > It was my understanding that no further development is going into devfs and > that it's not ready for prime-time without symlinks and permission changes. > Please tell me I'm wrong? you are wrong.. the following items need to be done in DEVSF 1/ there is a problem in vnode allocation that canresult in crashes. 2/ symlink support needs to be added.. it's kinda trivial, but needs to be done 3/ I think I want to add support for named pipes, as Iconsider them to be "pseudo devices" and they are often made in /dev. also not rocket science. also takes time... (what's that?) > > Paul > > From: Poul-Henning Kamp > Subject: Re: Bug in NFS > In message <199606180740.RAA14812@godzilla.zeta.org.au>, Bruce Evans writes: > >> Bruce, I am of course using the same OS on each machine. Actually I am > >> using the wonderfull FreeBSD netboot system to build a diskless client > >> system. Since I have no local UFS filesystems its really hard to get a > >> working /dev directory. The machine still have a hard drive and I would > >> like to put some swap space on it. Hope this makes things clearer. > > > >Use only devices which have numbers (on the server) < 64K (e.g., wd0b) > >and don't manage devices from the client. > > Or use devfs ? > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, In > >>c. > Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. > From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 15:04:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01970 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01940 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA27268 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:03:55 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA27421 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:03:55 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA10033 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:46:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606182146.XAA10033@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Bug in NFS To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:46:38 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <7527.835108224@critter.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Jun 18, 96 07:30:24 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >Use only devices which have numbers (on the server) < 64K (e.g., wd0b) > >and don't manage devices from the client. > > Or use devfs ? Or fix NFS? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 15:04:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02036 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01995 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id AAA27297 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:04:03 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA27432 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 00:04:03 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA10060 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:48:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606182148.XAA10060@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Bug in NFS To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:48:39 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <29466.835110719@palmer.demon.co.uk> from Gary Palmer at "Jun 18, 96 04:11:59 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Gary Palmer wrote: > This is probably because NFS can't handle ``large'' major/minor > numbers (my guess is that they are truncated down to 8 bits for > encoding into the structure passed back and forth). Just like you > can't do 4.4BSD ``flags'' (see chflags(1)) over NFS. NFSv3 uses 32 bits for the major and minor number, NFSv3 uses 2x32 bits. (Gee, am i the only one reading the specs before posting? ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 15:05:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02134 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA01930; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id XAA00991; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:01:25 +0100 (BST) To: Paul Traina cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Bruce Evans , tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:10:45 PDT." <199606181810.LAA09976@precipice.shockwave.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:01:24 +0100 Message-ID: <989.835135284@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Traina wrote in message ID <199606181810.LAA09976@precipice.shockwave.com>: > Is symbolic link support working in devfs? Nope. > It was my understanding that no further development is going into > devfs and that it's not ready for prime-time without symlinks and > permission changes. Please tell me I'm wrong? I dunno about any further development. You'll have to ask Julian, but I for one intend to try and at least look at some of the devfs shortcommings if someone else doesn't do (AFTER 2.1.5 is out, before you ask). Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 15:14:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02864 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (spinner.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA02848; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by spinner.DIALix.COM (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA16141; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 06:14:43 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199606182214.GAA16141@spinner.DIALix.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: current@freebsd.org cc: committers@freebsd.org Subject: Heads-up! gcc-2.7.2 on the way! Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 06:14:42 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It's been requested enough, it's finally about to happen... (and has even been OK'ed by the rest of -core) What this means: - Objective-C front end restored - Much improved C++ support, including templates, exceptions etc. - New libg++ (2.7.1) required (I'm finishing that at this very moment) - libobjc restored - C parser is much more ruthless... *much* more... - The compiler understands all those new __attribute types that GNU software is increasingly using surrounded by #ifdef __GNUC__ and not checking the version... (it assumes that if you are using gcc, then you are expected to be using the "latest"). - The gcc/libg++ vendor branch will be repaired I'll tag the "final" gcc-2.6.3 code so that it can be fetched with relatively little pain. (Then we can have the joy of seeing about all the new things that "-W -Wunused ... etc" complains about in the kernel :-( ) Note that the FSF release of gcc-2.7.2 has some incorrect settings for the FreeBSD config, it's a wonder that it worked as well as it did... Anyway, with the correct tm-freebsd.h settings, this package has turned out quite solid. :-) The code that will end up on the HEAD of -current is derived from Bruce Evan's earlier work on re-integrating the FreeBSD changes into 2.7.2. With a bit of luck once the vendor branch is repaired, there wont be any excuse for not getting some of this shipped back to the FSF.. :-) The only thing that I've not been able to verify with the new kit is whether it still compiles the XFree86 server. I dont have the disk space or know-how to test it. (If somebody who has built the Xservers from source before would like to check this for me, please let me know...) So, this is a general "heads up!" call. A 'make world' will be needed after the imports and now would be a really good time to do a 'make world' with the existing compiler to sync everything up and do a backup etc. But, of course, since this is -current, I shouldn't need to remind everybody... :-) I've been running a userland and kernel built with this compiler for some weeks now without any apparent problems (other than genuine kernel bugs, of course.. :-) This should be done in a day or two, so now is the time to speak up if you have anything to say on the subject....... -Peter (off to bed to sleep) (dont forget to trim the cc: line if replying) From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 15:54:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06333 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06310 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id XAA01177; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:53:12 +0100 (BST) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD-current users) From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:48:39 +0200." <199606182148.XAA10060@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:53:11 +0100 Message-ID: <1175.835138391@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote in message ID <199606182148.XAA10060@uriah.heep.sax.de>: > As Gary Palmer wrote: > > This is probably because NFS can't handle ``large'' major/minor > > numbers (my guess is that they are truncated down to 8 bits for > > encoding into the structure passed back and forth). Just like you > > can't do 4.4BSD ``flags'' (see chflags(1)) over NFS. > NFSv3 uses 32 bits for the major and minor number, NFSv3 uses 2x32 > bits. I take it one of those is meant to be NFSv2? :-) > (Gee, am i the only one reading the specs before posting? ;-) I read the include file for NFSv2 before posting. Doesn't that count? :-) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 15:55:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06442 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06421 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fcurrent@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id QAA01838; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:30:23 GMT Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:30:23 GMT Message-Id: <199606181630.QAA01838@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: strace [Was Re: ktrace...] Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry, I seem to have lost the original mail but someone was asking about porting strace to FreeBSD. I pulled down the source for strace-3.1 from the Incoming directory of my local Sunsite mirror this afternoon and had a look at it. Here's an extract from the PORTING file that comes with it:- The number one question is ``Does the native operating support a concept which enables even the mere possibility of tracing?''. So far I have seen two mechanisms which support system call tracing. They are the SunOS originated feature of the PTRACE_SYSCALL argument to the ptrace system call and the PIOCSENTRY/PIOCSEXIT ioctl for the /proc filesystem under System V release 4 style Unix derived systems. There may be others (surely a better one could be devised :-) but innovation is a rare commodity so unless one of these is supported you may be SOL. Now, FreeBSD has both ptrace() and a /proc filesystem, but neither of them support system call tracing as far as I can tell (and I checked through the source just in case there was anything undocumented). OTH ktrace() does support system call tracing, but does it all inside the kernel, which is no use to a program in userland. We're SOL 8-) -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 15:59:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06771 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA06765 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA03646; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:59:33 -0600 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:59:33 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606182259.QAA03646@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Peter Wemm Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Heads-up! gcc-2.7.2 on the way! In-Reply-To: <199606182214.GAA16141@spinner.DIALix.COM> References: <199606182214.GAA16141@spinner.DIALix.COM> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Wemm writes: > It's been requested enough, it's finally about to happen... (and has even > been OK'ed by the rest of -core) Cool. I've been wondering when this would happen after you hinted at it a couple weeks ago. > What this means: > - C parser is much more ruthless... *much* more... That's a double-edged sword. It's good and bad at the same time. > - The gcc/libg++ vendor branch will be repaired :) > (Then we can have the joy of seeing about all the new things that "-W > -Wunused ... etc" complains about in the kernel :-( ) Or we can remove the warnings from the Makefiles until they get fixed. *grin* > I've been running a userland and kernel built with this compiler for some > weeks now without any apparent problems other than genuine kernel bugs, > of course.. :-) > > This should be done in a day or two, so now is the time to speak up if you > have anything to say on the subject....... Is there any chance of doing the 2.7.2 work and afterward adding in the pre-2.7.3 patches which fix some serious x86 bugs that Warner has, or do we want to wait for 2.7.3 to be 'official'? Nate From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 16:09:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA07555 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [144.206.136.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA07538; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA12059 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:00:31 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Wed, 19 Jun 96 02:00:30 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by astral.msk.su (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA00378; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:53:58 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199606182253.CAA00378@astral.msk.su> Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly.. To: sos@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:53:58 +0400 (MSD) Cc: fenner@parc.xerox.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, wollman@lcs.mit.edu, jkh@freefall.freebsd.org, current@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606182026.WAA22166@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@freebsd.org" at "Jun 18, 96 10:26:40 pm" From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (aka Andrey A. Chernov, Black Mage) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Last I saw (and remember) it practically deleted all my routes so > I had to put them in staically to get a usable network. > (And no my config is not exotic or something) Yes, after few reconnects it deletes my PPP default too independed of -p option used. -- Andrey A. Chernov : And I rest so composedly, /Now, in my bed, ache@astral.msk.su : That any beholder /Might fancy me dead - http://dt.demos.su/~ache : Might start at beholding me, /Thinking me dead. RELCOM Team,FreeBSD Team : E.A.Poe From "For Annie" 1849 From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 16:17:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08169 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA08152 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA03785; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:17:16 -0600 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:17:16 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606182317.RAA03785@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: (Mis)feature of the current make macros Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I noticed this with the PC-CARD stuff, but if you have a man-page definition, ../Makefile.inc gets included twice. Normally this isn't a problem, but in the case where you set something with '+=' you'll end up with it added to the variable twice. Ex: % cat Makefile SUBDIR = subdir .include % cat Makefile.inc CFLAGS += -Wall % cd subdir % cat Makefile PROG= bar SRCS= bar.c MAN8= bar.8 .include % touch bar.c bar.8 % make -n cc -Wall -Wall bar.c cc -Wall -Wall -o bar bar.o zip -c bar.8 > bar.8.gz [ If you comment the MAN8 entry it behaves as expected ] Is there any Makefile that only includes ? If so, should it? If not, we can remove the inclusion of ../Makefile.inc. Does anyone know if I'm missing anything here? (Other than my sanity? *grin*) Nate From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 16:20:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08455 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08450 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA12066; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606182320.QAA12066@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Christoph P. Kukulies" cc: freebsd-current@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: reboot beeps In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:05:06 +0200." <199606181805.UAA11040@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:20:28 -0700 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I installed a three days old kernel today - maybe one shouldn't do, eh? >Anyway, it costs me a drive to the campus at present when I >type > >sync ; reboot > >since it hangs with a black screen and beeps. This machine has been one >of my most reliably remotely rebootable machines for over a year. I >understand that there were changes in the keyboard reset code (delays etc.) >but that it has to be broken so miserably... > >I added a second WD8013 card though but I can't imagine that being the >culprit. The new 16bit ethernet card is probably interfering with the 8bit BIOS ROM that is on the VGA card. I have a workaround in the driver for this, but perhaps there is a case that doesn't work right. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 16:25:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08967 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA08946 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <15295(5)>; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:24:23 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177476>; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:24:12 -0700 To: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (aka Andrey A. Chernov, Black Mage) cc: sos@freebsd.org, fenner@parc.xerox.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, wollman@lcs.mit.edu, current@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 96 15:53:58 PDT." <199606182253.CAA00378@astral.msk.su> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:24:00 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Jun18.162412pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606182253.CAA00378@astral.msk.su> you write: >Yes, after few reconnects it deletes my PPP default too independed >of -p option used. Has anyone who's had trouble with the new routed tried running it with '-tt -T /tmp/routed.log' or something, to see exactly what it thinks it's doing? Bill From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 16:31:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09400 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA09393; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA26773; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:32:39 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606190002.JAA26773@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: xditview To: jhs@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:32:38 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606181014.MAA01844@vector.jhs.no_domain> from "Julian H. Stacey" at Jun 18, 96 12:14:49 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian H. Stacey stands accused of saying: > > It seems xditview was removed from src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/ > (with today's just received ctm patch: src-cur.1896) > > I seem to recall someone complaining it wouldnt compile if there was no > X tree resident, could it have been removed just because of that ? ! Actually, it would cause 'make world' to fail if /usr/X11R6 were present but not complete (eg. only libraries were present, say for running emacs), or not writable (eg. mounted readonly via NFS), or if you built on a machine with no X and then tried 'make reinstall' onto one that had X, the 'reinstall' would fail. > A better solution may be something like: > src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/Makefile: > .if exists(${X11BASE}/include) > .if exists(${X11BASE}/lib) > SUBDIR +=xditview You would need to add a writability test too. I would have been happy with the build or install failing and being ignored, but I couldn't come up with a way for it to be done tidily. > Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 16:57:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11041 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gargoyle.bazzle.com ([206.103.246.190]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11033 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ejc@localhost) by gargoyle.bazzle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA14312; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:57:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric J. Chet" To: Peter Wemm cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Heads-up! gcc-2.7.2 on the way! In-Reply-To: <199606182214.GAA16141@spinner.DIALix.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello This is great, thank you very much. I have been using elf-gcc-2.7.2 (thanks John Polstra) for the last few months, doing lots of C++ work without any problems. I have been using STL with this version of the compiler without many problems. The main advantage to gcc-2.7.2 is the C++ support, it has been greatly enhanced. I do have one request though, please use Cygnus's template repository patches to gcc-2.7.2. This code is only used if the -frepo switch is on. Basically it's smart template instantiation code. You can get the code from: ftp://ftp.cygnus.com/pub/g++/gcc-2.7.2-repo.gz Peter I will email you a copy of the patches, they are not that large. Peace, Eric J. Chet - ejc@bazzle.com - Powered by FreeBSD | Live Free or Die Lucent Technologies, Bell Labs Innovations | UNIX Columbus, Ohio 43213 RM 1E222 ejc@nasvr1.cb.lucent.com | Bell Labs From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 17:14:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12141 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12131 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.208]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA10241 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA02687; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:14:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: FreeBSD current Subject: psroff Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Why is there a /usr/bin/psroff? This doesn't seem to be a very useful command, merely a one line front end to groff that forces postscript, and (because it forces the -C compatiblity mode) makes several macro packages break. I ask because there is a real psroff package, and having a psroff interface to groff, it seems to me, just introduces extra confusion, without offering any (that I can see) benefits. The default mode of groff is already to generate postscript, and forcing the compatibility mode doesn't seem to be any win. I'd take it out, if it were me. It's located in /usr/src/gnu/groff/nroff/psroff.sh, and the Makefile there installs it as psroff. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 17:46:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13568 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13558 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous233.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.233]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA24863; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:34:12 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA01478; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:07:42 +0200 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:07:42 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199606190007.CAA01478@campa.panke.de> To: James Raynard Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] In-Reply-To: <199606170030.AAA10445@jraynard.demon.co.uk> References: <199606160211.MAA00203@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <199606170030.AAA10445@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk James Raynard writes: >Indeed. Apart from volume of output, is there any particular reason >why ktrace writes to a file which kdump reads in, as opposed to using >a pipe? Particularly as the first thing kdump does is >freopen(tracefile, "r", stdin)! Hm, try `ktrace -f /dev/stdout | kdump -f /dev/stdin' Wolfram From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 18:14:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA14682 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iworks.InterWorks.org (deischen@iworks.interworks.org [128.255.18.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA14674; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iworks.InterWorks.org (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA01520; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:10:26 -0500 Message-Id: <9606190110.AA01520@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:10:26 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Eischen" To: sos@freebsd.org Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly.. Cc: current@freefall.freebsd.org, jkh@freefall.freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, wollman@lcs.mit.edu Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, to be honest I've switched back to the old routed :( > The new routed gives me all kinds of trouble, it even messes > up my PPP connection and the nameserver info etc I get automatically > that way. For me the new routed is UNUSABLE... > Last I saw (and remember) it practically deleted all my routes so > I had to put them in staically to get a usable network. > (And no my config is not exotic or something) Yeah, me too. When I start up a PPP (kernel) session, I have to do a manual "route add default ..." because it deleted/lost the default route set by pppd. Dan Eischen deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 18:34:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA15667 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15662 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id KAA16857 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:34:50 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:34:50 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Heads-up! gcc-2.7.2 on the way! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Isn't the bug fix release, gcc-2.7.3, on the way too? From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 18:50:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA16338 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iworks.InterWorks.org (deischen@iworks.interworks.org [128.255.18.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA16327 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iworks.InterWorks.org (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA01599; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:46:46 -0500 Message-Id: <9606190146.AA01599@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:46:46 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Eischen" To: current@freebsd.org, fenner@parc.xerox.com Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly. Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Has anyone who's had trouble with the new routed tried running it with > '-tt -T /tmp/routed.log' or something, to see exactly what it thinks it's > doing? routed -q -T ~/routed.log -tt [ starts ppp ] bash# ifconfig ppp0 ppp0: flags=8051 mtu 1500 inet 204.213.233.105 --> 204.213.232.3 netmask 0xffffff00 bash# netstat -r Routing tables Internet: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire default pcnet.com UGc 1 1 ppp0 rigel localhost UGHS 0 0 lo0 localhost localhost UH 1 0 lo0 pcnet.com ts3-pt5.pcnet.com UH 0 0 ppp0 ts3-pt5.pcnet.com localhost UH 0 0 lo0 [ seconds later ] bash# netstat -r Routing tables Internet: Destination Gateway Flags Refs Use Netif Expire rigel localhost UGHS 0 0 lo0 localhost localhost UH 1 0 lo0 pcnet.com ts3-pt5.pcnet.com UH 0 2 ppp0 ts3-pt5.pcnet.com localhost UH 0 0 lo0 [ notice no default route above ] bash# cat ~/routed.log trace command Tracing actions started Tracing packets started Add interface lo0 127.0.0.1 --> 127.0.0.1/32 metric=1 Add 127.0.0.1/32 --> 127.0.0.1 metric=1 lo0 21:44:31 --- 21:44:31 --- ignore RTM_NEWADDR without dst RTM_ADD 204.213.232.3/32 --> 204.213.233.105 from pid 0 --- 21:45:28 --- note RTM_IFINFO with flags 0x8051 for index #4 --- 21:45:28 --- Add interface ppp0 204.213.233.105 --> 204.213.232.3 metric=1 turn on RIP Add 204.213.232.3/32--> 204.213.233.105 metric=1 ppp0 21:45:28 Add 204.213.233.105/32--> 127.0.0.1 metric=1 ppp0 21:45:28 Send RIPv2 REQUEST to 204.213.232.3.520 via ppp0 sendto(ppp0, 204.213.232.3.520): Network is down Chg interface ppp0 204.213.233.105 --> 204.213.232.3 metric=1 Chg 204.213.232.3/32--> 204.213.233.105 metric=1 ppp0 204.213.232.3/32--> metric=16 - hold-down=10 21:43:28 --- 21:45:28 --- Send RIPv2 REQUEST to 204.213.232.3.520 via ppp0 --- 21:45:28 --- time changed by -1 sec --- 21:45:28 --- RTM_MISS for 224.0.0.9 RTM_ADD 0.0.0.0 --> 204.213.232.3 from pid 189 interface ppp0 to 204.213.233.105 restored --- 21:45:32 --- Del 204.213.232.3/32--> 204.213.233.105 metric=16 21:43:27 re-install interface ppp0Add 204.213.232.3/32--> 204.213.233.105 metric=1 ppp0 21:45:32 --- 21:48:02 --- RTM_ADD 0.0.0.0 --> 204.213.232.3 from pid 216 bash# Any help? Dan EIschen deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 20:58:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03102 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03083 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA18921; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:57:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: David Greenman cc: Matt Day , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Kernel panic in fsync, 2.2-960501-SNAP In-Reply-To: <199606121213.FAA00941@Root.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, David Greenman wrote: > > Since this is -current, I would strongly suggest SUPing the latest > stuff. There were a great deal of serious VM system bugs in the 0501 > snapshot that have just recently been worked out. I guess that would be my next step then. The patch Matt provided was able to get through 6 days of uptime on each of the two shell servers here, but one of them crashed in fsync() today, again caused by an emacs process. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 21:16:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA07287 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (critter.cdrom.com [204.216.27.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA07259 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00482 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:15:56 -0700 (PDT) To: current@freebsd.org Subject: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:23:40 +0930." <199606190353.NAA28433@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:15:55 -0700 Message-ID: <480.835157755@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What's going on here is that I'm forcing the issue. (In this entire thread, remember that it holds true for all of src/gnu, vi, and anyother major third-party/contrib component. !) No I don't think it is optimal to import the uuencoded tarball, but it sure as hell beats importing the tree. Why ? 1. People will have to make their changes as patches this way. 2. It makes communication with the author(s) easier that we know what our changes actually are. 3. It makes it easier for people to experiment with a never version on their own. 4. It takes up LESS space. 5. It makes Makefiles easier to make. The discussion ? well, I have tried to start it several times, and nobody seemed to care, so they obviously cannot feel too much about it ? I would prefer if we put the files in $CVSROOT/foobar for some value of foobar and made a sup-target for them. They could live there as bare binaries, not uuencoded, if CVS would not get confused about it. I would prefer this dir to be inside the $CVSROOT so that people don't loose them by accident but I'm not religious about it. That's what is going on! I hope Peter will import the new GCC the same way, nomatter what we decide to do with the tarballs. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 22:23:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA13340 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA13334; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA04861; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:23:09 -0600 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:23:09 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606190523.XAA04861@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <480.835157755@critter.tfs.com> References: <199606190353.NAA28433@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <480.835157755@critter.tfs.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What's going on here is that I'm forcing the issue. Bullying people around isn't the best way to get things done. It does do a good job of getting people angry though. (See RMS's recent attempt to bully folks around in gnu.misc.discuss). > (In this entire thread, remember that it holds true for all of > src/gnu, vi, and anyother major third-party/contrib component. !) And I disagreed with it then, and still do. > No I don't think it is optimal to import the uuencoded tarball, but > it sure as hell beats importing the tree. > > Why ? > > 1. People will have to make their changes as patches this way. CVS does that for us. Having 'patches' doesn't buy us anything when it's a critical portion of the tree. > 2. It makes communication with the author(s) easier that we know what > our changes actually are. When a person sends diffs, either the author accepts them or he doesn't. TCL changes *radically* from stable version to version, so importing it via a vendor branch makes it *much* easier to see vs. having to go find out by where in the patch fits. > 3. It makes it easier for people to experiment with a never version > on their own. Ports already allows for this. > 4. It takes up LESS space. BS. The *first* version takes up less space, but for every version afterwards it takes up *incredibly* more space. Every new import effectively doubles the space, since there is probably < 10% overlap in a uuencoded gzip file. > 5. It makes Makefiles easier to make. ? If it makes you feel better, build an empty subdir and stick everything below it. You have to untar the file anyway, so have it 'pre-untarred' in the format the Makefile would have it be in. This is a straw-man. > The discussion ? well, I have tried to start it several times, and > nobody seemed to care, so they obviously cannot feel too much about it > ? BS. I've argued against through email and in personal conversation. But Jordan agreed so it didn't matter. > I hope Peter will import the new GCC the same way, nomatter what we > decide to do with the tarballs. I certainly *hope* not, and given his complaints I would think he knows better than to. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Tue Jun 18 23:22:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA16522 for current-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (critter.cdrom.com [204.216.27.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA16515; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA01869; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:21:18 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:23:09 MDT." <199606190523.XAA04861@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:21:18 -0700 Message-ID: <1867.835165278@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Why ? >> >> 1. People will have to make their changes as patches this way. > >CVS does that for us. Having 'patches' doesn't buy us anything when >it's a critical portion of the tree. Sorry, but available history shows that this, true as it may be in theory, doesn't work in practice. On the otherhand we get patches from the ports collection integrated at the authors all the time. >> 2. It makes communication with the author(s) easier that we know what >> our changes actually are. > >When a person sends diffs, either the author accepts them or he doesn't. >TCL changes *radically* from stable version to version, so importing it >via a vendor branch makes it *much* easier to see vs. having to go find >out by where in the patch fits. Considering what you claimed to know about Tcl, I think you lack data for saying that TCL changes "*radically*" here. It hasn't for a long time. >> 3. It makes it easier for people to experiment with a never version >> on their own. > >Ports already allows for this. no. Try gcc for a prime example of how it doesn't work. >> 4. It takes up LESS space. > >BS. The *first* version takes up less space, but for every version >afterwards it takes up *incredibly* more space. Every new import >effectively doubles the space, since there is probably < 10% overlap in >a uuencoded gzip file. du(1) our gcc versions to see if that holds water :-) >> The discussion ? well, I have tried to start it several times, and >> nobody seemed to care, so they obviously cannot feel too much about it >> ? > >BS. I've argued against through email and in personal conversation. >But Jordan agreed so it didn't matter. Nate, curb your paranoia. There havn't been any discussion, because it wasn't possible to start one. There still isn't, only a lot of shouting from various "usual suspects" who are not willing to put up with the maintenance of any of this stuff themselves. >> I hope Peter will import the new GCC the same way, nomatter what we >> decide to do with the tarballs. > >I certainly *hope* not, and given his complaints I would think he knows >better than to. At least Peter has "been there, done that" so he knows what he's talking about. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 01:07:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA21464 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA21459; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA22603; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:07:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:23:09 MDT." <199606190523.XAA04861@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:07:22 -0700 Message-ID: <22601.835171642@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Bullying people around isn't the best way to get things done. It does > do a good job of getting people angry though. Well, I don't think Poul was up for bullying so much as he himself is somewhat frustrated by the lack of response to previous attempts to do something *like* this (note emphasis) and hasn't had much in the way of response from people. In all fairness to Poul, we *have* been discussing a scheme like this for over a year now and I've never seen it come anywhere comfortably close to closure - the religious issues never do, somehow. Sometimes the only way to break new ground then is to hold up a lightning rod in a storm and weather the process as best you can - what we generally come up with in the long run usually makes everyone happy and everybody except the instigator (who's still charred on one side) conveniently forgets the teething process. :-) Now I've also had the benefit of having Poul talk to me about this for a couple of days beforehand, so I know his intentions were purer than you suspect - I don't expect you to have the benefit of the additional context, so I'm trying to explain here. I also knew that the uuencoded tarball was going to sit badly with many folks but, since, Poul assured me that it was only transitionary until we got through the lightning bolt stage, I didn't focus on that issue, trying instead to keep the number of divergent mechanisms down to a minimum by getting it to use bsd.port.mk. I know that we'll work something else out for the tarball, even if it just winds up being an imported, virgin unpacked copy of the tree in some [sub]directory and the fetch/extract steps are eternally skipped. I think we should also consider what we've gained here, namely the "middle ground" between ports and src which we always knew was in our future someday but have steadily tried to avoid. We knew it was in our future because the prospect of re-bmaking every port we ever wanted to ugrade, now and in the future, has traditionally _sucked_ and we've hated it from day one. I know you've always liked the old scheme, but I don't think I ever saw you raise your hand to become "bmake czar for eternity" either :-) > BS. I've argued against through email and in personal conversation. > But Jordan agreed so it didn't matter. Oh c'mon Nate, this has nothing to do with some grand decision from yours truly - this is simply the next logical step for things which occupy the 3rd logical category of software - things which we need in our base distributions but don't want to have to necessarily maintain fully as FreeBSD components. Trying to deny the existance of a 3rd category, smashing things into either /usr/src or /usr/ports, has come at great cost on both sides. Either you're in bmake hell or you can't rely on the feature at all because the ports collection isn't a non-optional part of the system. This fact doesn't take an Einstein to see, it's been obvious for a long time, and the fact that *neither* of us has ever come up with a credible alternative is what led me to stand out of the way when Poul decided to do what he did. Unless you've come up with some way of eliminating the bmake-munging process for ports like gcc and groff, I'd suggest you just let the man finish what he started and admit to yourself that you've got no better plan of your own to offer ("stay right where we are" being an option only to those who don't have to do the bmake integration work every time :-). Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 01:10:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA21720 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kanto.cc.jyu.fi (root@kanto.cc.jyu.fi [130.234.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA21715 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kallio@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kanto.cc.jyu.fi (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA24540; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:09:40 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:09:40 +0300 (EET DST) From: Seppo Kallio To: Bruce Evans cc: tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Bug in NFS In-Reply-To: <199606180740.RAA14812@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Bruce Evans wrote: > > Bruce, I am of course using the same OS on each machine. Actually I am > > using the wonderfull FreeBSD netboot system to build a diskless client > > system. Since I have no local UFS filesystems its really hard to get a > > working /dev directory. The machine still have a hard drive and I would > > like to put some swap space on it. Hope this makes things clearer. > > Use only devices which have numbers (on the server) < 64K (e.g., wd0b) > and don't manage devices from the client. > > Bruce I am using diskless workstations also. I have local /dev /var /tmp and swap I am mounting the local disk to /dev2/wd0 The /dev is a link to /var/dev The 4 workstations have common root and usr on the server (read only) + user filesystems in 4-5 nfs servers. This seems to work. You have to config xdm (If you use it) so it writes authdata to /var not to /usr The rc needs some modifications to prevent users to boot workstations to single user. Seppo U of Jyvaskyla Finland PS. df from one of workstations: 11:04am@mirri~% df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Mounted on 130.234.40.26:/itu/camelot/root 1713998 1327238 84% / /dev2/wd0a 808558 2974 0% /var procfs 4 4 100% /proc motti.cc.jyu.fi:/opt/ftp 3950689 3589136 99% /opt/ftp motti.cc.jyu.fi:/itu/camelot/usr 1713998 1327238 84% /usr tukki.cc.jyu.fi:/export 1952860 1553465 88% /export laani.cc.jyu.fi:/export/lk 2887229 1831112 70% /export/lk tukki.cc.jyu.fi:/export/opis2 1922325 1610271 93% /export/opis2 kanto.cc.jyu.fi:/export/opis 3939571 3342509 94% /export/opis kanto.cc.jyu.fi:/export/home/kem 1131397 506041 50% /export/home/kem news.jyu.fi:/opt/autounpack 908811 610359 75% /opt/autounpack news.jyu.fi:/opt/news 908811 610359 75% /opt/news news.jyu.fi:/var/spool/news 3939571 2641636 68% /var/spool/news www.jyu.fi:/home/www 3470690 2514518 79% /opt/www tukki, laani, kanto, news run SPARC Solaris, itu, motti, silmu, www run FreeBSD 2.1R Workstations run 2.2-SNAP 960501 From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 01:13:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA21875 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA21870 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I6375E7GNK002PJK@mail.rwth-aachen.de>; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:46:33 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA12979; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:42:08 +0200 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:42:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: Re: reboot beeps In-reply-to: <199606182320.QAA12066@Root.COM> To: davidg@Root.COM Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, freebsd-current@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-to: Christoph Kukulies Message-id: <199606190742.JAA12979@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL16 (25)] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > >I installed a three days old kernel today - maybe one shouldn't do, eh? > >Anyway, it costs me a drive to the campus at present when I > >type > > > >sync ; reboot > > > >since it hangs with a black screen and beeps. This machine has been one > >of my most reliably remotely rebootable machines for over a year. I > >understand that there were changes in the keyboard reset code (delays etc.) > >but that it has to be broken so miserably... > > > >I added a second WD8013 card though but I can't imagine that being the > >culprit. > > The new 16bit ethernet card is probably interfering with the 8bit BIOS ROM > that is on the VGA card. I have a workaround in the driver for this, but > perhaps there is a case that doesn't work right. After reading your comment I also tend to think the problem is introduced by the second WD card. Here is a dmesg excerpt: ed0 at 0x280-0x29f irq 5 maddr 0xd8000 msize 16384 on isa ed0: address 00:00:c0:xx:xx:xx, type SMC8216/SMC8216C (16 bit) ed1 at 0x200-0x21f irq 11 maddr 0xc0000 msize 8192 on isa ed1: address 00:00:c0:xx:xx:xx, type WD8003EP (8 bit) I don't understand that it's recognized as a 8003. It's definitely a 8013 (a very early one, though). I'll have a look at the board later today. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 01:53:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26042 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-150.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA26022; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA24239; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:59:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606182359.BAA24239@vector.jhs.no_domain> X-Authentication-Warning: vector.jhs.no_domain: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: xditview From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:35:28 PDT." <292.835108528@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:59:45 +0200 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > > Well, if ones source tree were 99% X source code free, wouldn't you be > tempted to go for that final 1%? :-) Yes, If it had never gone in it would have been fine, or if it had been in only a short while, but it seems dubious from a quality control viewpoint, to now remove a facility CD users have had at least 2 releases to get used to having available (2.0.5 & 2.1). A simple .if exist .... SUBDIR += would suffice, wouldn't it ?. > In any case, I think the handwriting is on the wall for a different > approach to packages like groff and gcc (encapsulation) and, if/when > that happens, things like xditview will magically "come back" for > free. Shudder ... `unbundling' Eh ? Stripped down op. systems with optional C compiler & text processing systems ? however, there might be a benefit to not having to BSD-make convert the mega FSF distribs such as gcc & groff etc, each time they upgrade. Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 02:10:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA27674 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA27665; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA22305; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:10:35 -0700 (PDT) To: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: xditview In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:59:45 +0200." <199606182359.BAA24239@vector.jhs.no_domain> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:10:34 -0700 Message-ID: <22303.835175434@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Shudder ... `unbundling' Eh ? No, rebundling. > Stripped down op. systems with optional C compiler & text processing systems ? No. Everything which is there will remain, just differently encapsulated. > however, there might be a benefit to not having to BSD-make convert > the mega FSF distribs such as gcc & groff etc, each time they upgrade. Yes! Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 02:42:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA00700 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA00689 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA08623; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:36:43 +1000 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:36:43 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606190936.TAA08623@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: Bug in NFS Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >Use only devices which have numbers (on the server) < 64K (e.g., wd0b) >> >and don't manage devices from the client. >> >> Or use devfs ? >Or fix NFS? It seems to be easy. This is untested. major and minor are supposed to have type `int', although minors with the high bit set don't really fit in an int. Unusual values for major and minor might cause problems because makedev() doesn't mask out the bits that it doesn't understand. Bruce *** nfs_subs.c~ Sat Jun 15 18:13:07 1996 --- nfs_subs.c Wed Jun 19 19:25:32 1996 *************** *** 1219,1224 **** vtyp = nfsv3tov_type(fp->fa_type); vmode = fxdr_unsigned(u_short, fp->fa_mode); ! rdev = makedev(fxdr_unsigned(u_char, fp->fa3_rdev.specdata1), ! fxdr_unsigned(u_char, fp->fa3_rdev.specdata2)); fxdr_nfsv3time(&fp->fa3_mtime, &mtime); } else { --- 1219,1224 ---- vtyp = nfsv3tov_type(fp->fa_type); vmode = fxdr_unsigned(u_short, fp->fa_mode); ! rdev = makedev(fxdr_unsigned(int, fp->fa3_rdev.specdata1), ! fxdr_unsigned(int, fp->fa3_rdev.specdata2)); fxdr_nfsv3time(&fp->fa3_mtime, &mtime); } else { From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 02:54:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA01756 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA01707 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fcurrent@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id NAA00521; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:41:52 GMT Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:41:52 GMT Message-Id: <199606181341.NAA00521@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu CC: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <9606171557.AA01047@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> (message from Garrett Wollman on Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:57:56 -0400) Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Indeed. Apart from volume of output, is there any particular reason > > why ktrace writes to a file which kdump reads in, as opposed to using > > a pipe? Particularly as the first thing kdump does is > > freopen(tracefile, "r", stdin)! > 2) The present approach has the advantage of not disturbing the file > descriptor table of the process being debugged, so that heisenbug > effects are less likely to occur. I don't follow. If the ktrace() system call took a file descriptor allocated by the ktrace program as its first argument, and used that to find the vnode to write the trace information to, how would that involve disturbing the file descriptor table of the process being debugged? (Except perhaps for pathological cases like trying to get a running ktrace process to debug itself). -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 04:26:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA08066 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA08061 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA04105 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:26:36 -0700 (PDT) To: current@freebsd.org Subject: fetch - time to kill ncftp? Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:26:36 -0700 Message-ID: <4103.835183596@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ya know, the only reason I ever brought ncftp into the source tree was so that bsd.port.mk could use it, and now that we have `fetch' I'm wondering if we might not throw a bone to the anti-bloatists and move ncftp back to the ports collection? If there are no major outcries to the contrary, I'll do it in a few days. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 04:48:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA08730 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA08720 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA24381; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:45:55 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199606191145.NAA24381@grumble.grondar.za> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fetch - time to kill ncftp? Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:45:55 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > Ya know, the only reason I ever brought ncftp into the source tree was > so that bsd.port.mk could use it, and now that we have `fetch' I'm > wondering if we might not throw a bone to the anti-bloatists and move > ncftp back to the ports collection? YES PLEASE! The one in the tree currently is ancient. It is kinda unprofessional to be distributing code that has in its random tips a valid comment that it is now out-of-date and "please fetch version 2 from blah" ;-) > If there are no major outcries to the contrary, I'll do it in a few > days. Do it. Its easier to get forgivness than permission ]:-> M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 04:51:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA08870 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vanuata.dcs.gla.ac.uk (vanuata.dcs.gla.ac.uk [130.209.240.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA08865 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606191151.EAA08865@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: from solander.dcs.gla.ac.uk by vanuata.dcs.gla.ac.uk with LOCAL SMTP (PP); Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:51:41 +0100 To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs-all-digest V1 #420 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:32:58 PDT." <199606190132.SAA15544@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:51:38 +0100 From: Simon Marlow Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > src/lib/tcl - Imported sources Maybe I missed something here, but can someone enlighten me as to why we need tcl in the source tree at all? Cheers, Simon (another disgruntled modem user...) -- Simon Marlow simonm@dcs.gla.ac.uk Research Assistant http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~simonm/ finger for PGP public key From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 04:55:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA09054 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09040; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 04:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA16719; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:53:57 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:54:25 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA07207; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:53:42 +0100 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:53:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199606191153.MAA07207@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <480.835157755@critter.tfs.com> References: <199606190353.NAA28433@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <480.835157755@critter.tfs.com> Reply-To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk From: Paul Richards X-Attribution: Paul X-Mailer: GNU Emacs [19.30.1], RMAIL, Mailcrypt [3.3] Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Poul-Henning" == Poul-Henning Kamp writes: Poul-Henning> No I don't think it is optimal to import the uuencoded Poul-Henning> tarball, but it sure as hell beats importing the tree. This really sucks big time. Poul-Henning> Why ? Poul-Henning> 1. People will have to make their changes as patches Poul-Henning> this way. So our src tree now consists of uuendoced third party packages and a set of patch files, wonderful, real progress! Poul-Henning> 2. It makes communication with the author(s) easier that Poul-Henning> we know what our changes actually are. cvs will allow you to do this perfectly well. Some of the recent arguments against cvs are valid but there really isn't any good reason why vendor branches can't be used correctly for this sort of thing. In fact, patches make this whole thing harder not easier, at least with cvs *some* of the merging will get done automatically, with patches you have to throw away the old set and start again on the new release. More garbage in the attic and more work to do updates. Poul-Henning> 3. It makes it easier for people to experiment with a Poul-Henning> never version on their own. How is that exactly? Seems like simply compiling the new release is about as easy a way as you can get to try out new versions. Poul-Henning> 4. It takes up LESS space. I'm going to have lots of uuencoded files in my attic in six months time and I really don't want that sort of crap lying around. Can ctm deal with diffs to uuencoded files or am I going to get 2Mb mail messages every time something changes in tcl? No-one ever considers the size of the cvs repository or the hassle modem users have staying in sync. Poul-Henning> 5. It makes Makefiles easier to make. Not true, writing a Makefile for BSD is *really* simple, what you really mean is it avoids the hassle of trying to bmake tcl. Poul-Henning> The discussion ? well, I have tried to start it several Poul-Henning> times, and nobody seemed to care, so they obviously Poul-Henning> cannot feel too much about it ? Well I've never seen anything on this issue. Where did it take place? Poul-Henning> I would prefer if we put the files in $CVSROOT/foobar Poul-Henning> for some value of foobar and made a sup-target for them. Poul-Henning> They could live there as bare binaries, not uuencoded, Poul-Henning> if CVS would not get confused about it. What the hell are you trying to achieve? Why would I want bare binaries in my cvs repository? This strikes me as a lazy solution to the problem. We *used* to have a rule that anything that was critical to the base OS had to be bmaked before it went into the base tree. Seems like this is now out the window because a couple of core members want a new toy and don't want the hassle of maintaining it. bmaking things is quite tricky, I did quite a lot of them when we started out (including the first few versions of gcc 2 we used) so I do know what's involved but it's worth the effort because it keeps *our* tree clean and smaller since the stuff not needed isn't brought into our tree. If something is going to use the ports mechanism why can't it just stay in ports? One of the big pluses I've heard from users when comparing, say, FreeBSD to Linux, it the unified build environment. You're now smashing that to pieces. This screws up all sorts of stuff. I can't have my src tree write only and use obj directories anymore. I can twiddle the WRKSRC variable I guess but then my ports would build in the same place as the base OS then. You're screwed if you want to have a priviliged user maintain you system sources but allow users to build ports. The global build variables will not apply to these encapsulateed products, such as NOPROFILE. I think the whole idea of using the ports mechanism to build parts of the main tree *REALLY* stinks big time. If you're not willing to take on the maintenance of these things then leave them out of the tree, don't bring in even more stuff to increase the maintenance load. All you've done is moved the sources from the ports area into the main source tree for no good reason whatsoever. If you have tools that you'd like to see as part of the main tree that require tcl then there are other ways to do it, such as simply making them check for the existence of tcl and only installing them if it exists, then people can decide whether they want the tcl tools or not. If these new tools are going to be such an integral part of the system then commit yourselves to supporting tcl as part of the base OS and bmake the thing. This is all really nasty, there's no compelling reason for tcl to be brought into the main tree, just because Jordan and Poul like it and have some new toys that could just as easily have stayed in ports. Unfortunately, it's a fact of life in FreeBSD these days that certain people in core consider FreeBSD to be theirs and don't see any need to discuss issues with the project as a whole or even other core members because it just gets in their way. This whole tcl idea is just plain wrong and I really hope that Peter and Joerg can get them to see sense. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 05:15:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA10009 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA09998 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA14502; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:07:51 +1000 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:07:51 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606191207.WAA14502@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: fcurrent@jraynard.demon.co.uk, wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>Indeed. Apart from volume of output, is there any particular reason >>why ktrace writes to a file which kdump reads in, as opposed to using >>a pipe? Particularly as the first thing kdump does is >>freopen(tracefile, "r", stdin)! >Hm, try `ktrace -f /dev/stdout | kdump -f /dev/stdin' I tried it before posting :-). ktrace(2) only works on regular files. This is undocumented of course. It obviously can't work on stdout because stdout goes away when ktrace(1) exits. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 05:30:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA10630 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA10625 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id FAA07060 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:30:26 -0700 Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA15182; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:23:46 +1000 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:23:46 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606191223.WAA15182@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: current@FreeBSD.org, nate@sri.MT.net Subject: Re: (Mis)feature of the current make macros Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I noticed this with the PC-CARD stuff, but if you have a man-page >definition, ../Makefile.inc gets included twice. Normally this isn't a >problem, but in the case where you set something with '+=' you'll end up >with it added to the variable twice. This was fixed in rev.1.5 of bsd.man.mk but I broke it again in rev.1.6. >Is there any Makefile that only includes ? If so, should >it? If not, we can remove the inclusion of ../Makefile.inc. I don't think so. We don't have a clear distinction between the primary and the secondary .mk files. The secondary ones certainly shouldn't include things that the primary ones have already included. Perhaps all .mk files should be idempotent and self-sufficient like all .h files should be. .if !defined(_foo_mk_) _foo_mk_= .include .endif !_foo_mk_ Is this the right style? .ifndef works but is never used in *.mk... Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 05:42:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA11087 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA11082 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA01886; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:44:43 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606191314.WAA01886@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: fetch - time to kill ncftp? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:44:43 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4103.835183596@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 19, 96 04:26:36 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > Ya know, the only reason I ever brought ncftp into the source tree was > so that bsd.port.mk could use it, and now that we have `fetch' I'm > wondering if we might not throw a bone to the anti-bloatists and move > ncftp back to the ports collection? ..especially as the version in the main tree is out of date and unsupported by the author. 8) > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 05:57:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA11727 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA11719; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id WAA12116 Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:57:42 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199606191257.WAA12116@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: laptop installations To: phk@FreeBSD.org (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:57:39 +1000 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <7774.835115157@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jun 18, 96 09:25:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > Well, some laptops do have slower busses and some pcmcia cards are slow > by themselves... My current problem is not so much lack of bus speed but being able to talk to the card at all. The AST J10 doesn't use the hard-coded addresses at port 0x3Cx as implemented in the existing pccard driver. It seems to use a PCI bridge and the PCMCIA controller (a Cirrus 672x) which appears at port 0xfcfc. Attempts to probe for more than two cards hang the laptop :-( Having found that, I now have some diagnostics about not being able to assign an I/O port .. it's getting there .. The symptoms are identical with the D-link 650CT and the 3C589C, michael From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 07:02:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA14936 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA14929; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA19561; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:59:58 +1000 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:59:58 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606191359.XAA19561@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: julian@ref.tfs.com, pst@shockwave.com Subject: Re: Bug in NFS Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, phk@FreeBSD.org, tony@fit.qut.edu.au Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> It was my understanding that no further development is going into devfs and >> that it's not ready for prime-time without symlinks and permission changes. >> Please tell me I'm wrong? > you are wrong.. > the following items need to be done in DEVSF > 1/ there is a problem in vnode allocation that canresult in crashes. > 2/ symlink support needs to be added.. it's kinda trivial, > but needs to be done > 3/ I think I want to add support for named pipes, as Iconsider them to be > "pseudo devices" and they are often made in /dev. > also not rocket science. also takes time... (what's that?) Er, this means he's right, except "further" should be "current". Development of devfs is stalled. I disagree with putting symlinks and especially named pipes in it. They would delay the deployment of a usable version and bloat the kernel. To support symlinks in /dev, fix union mounts or "union" file systems. Perhaps union mounts already work well enough for this limited application. I tried: # mkdir /tmp/z # ln -s /dev/zero /tmp/z/zz # mount -t null -o union /tmp/z /dev # ls -lF /dev/zz [...] /dev/zz@ -> /dev/zero # works # od /dev/zz [...] # works ^C # modstat [...] # even the lkm nullfs worked # umount /dev # I don't trust this :-) # modunload -i 0 # or this Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 07:28:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16372 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA16366; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA20623; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:22:25 +1000 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:22:25 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606191422.AAA20623@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: nate@sri.MT.net, phk@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. Cc: current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> 1. People will have to make their changes as patches this way. >> >>CVS does that for us. Having 'patches' doesn't buy us anything when >>it's a critical portion of the tree. >Sorry, but available history shows that this, true as it may be in >theory, doesn't work in practice. On the otherhand we get patches >from the ports collection integrated at the authors all the time. That's because the bmaked version works so well that it rarely _needs_ to be touched. When it is fresh it just works, and when it is out of date it works well enough that people don't want to risk breaking it. >Try gcc for a prime example of how it doesn't work. >>> 4. It takes up LESS space. >> >>BS. The *first* version takes up less space, but for every version >>afterwards it takes up *incredibly* more space. Every new import >>effectively doubles the space, since there is probably < 10% overlap in >>a uuencoded gzip file. >du(1) our gcc versions to see if that holds water :-) Ha. gcc is about 7MB for the tarball and 25MB unpacked. Our sources are 12MB for the cvs repository and 11MB checked out. The repository would be about 1MB smaller if it didn't have diffs for bison output. Both methods would require much more space if history was maintained. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 07:54:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA17867 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA17862; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA18527; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:54:15 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:54:15 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606191454.AA18527@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <1867.835165278@critter.tfs.com> References: <199606190523.XAA04861@rocky.sri.MT.net> <1867.835165278@critter.tfs.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: >> CVS does that for us. Having 'patches' doesn't buy us anything when >> it's a critical portion of the tree. > Sorry, but available history shows that this, true as it may be in > theory, doesn't work in practice. On the otherhand we get patches > from the ports collection integrated at the authors all the time. As someone who maintains the only parts of our `external' tree that were ever correctly imported in the first place, I can tell you from first-hand experience that it works damn well, thank you very much, if the importers can be bothered to do it right. I am not willing to declare defeat, and I don't want unreadable binary garbage in the SOURCE tree. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 08:13:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18820 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18814; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA07996 ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:13:23 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA05842; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:11:24 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:11:24 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191511.JAA05842@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Nate Williams , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <1867.835165278@critter.tfs.com> References: <199606190523.XAA04861@rocky.sri.MT.net> <1867.835165278@critter.tfs.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> 1. People will have to make their changes as patches this way. > > > >CVS does that for us. Having 'patches' doesn't buy us anything when > >it's a critical portion of the tree. > > Sorry, but available history shows that this, true as it may be in > theory, doesn't work in practice. On the otherhand we get patches > from the ports collection integrated at the authors all the time. If you use it it works. Just because you aren't using it doesn't mean it doesn't work. It worked for CVS, which is a pretty large package. > >> 2. It makes communication with the author(s) easier that we know what > >> our changes actually are. > > > >When a person sends diffs, either the author accepts them or he doesn't. > >TCL changes *radically* from stable version to version, so importing it > >via a vendor branch makes it *much* easier to see vs. having to go find > >out by where in the patch fits. > > Considering what you claimed to know about Tcl, I think you lack data > for saying that TCL changes "*radically*" here. It hasn't for a long > time. 7.3 -> 7.4 == Radical change 7.4 -> 7.5 == radical change because of all the changes necessary for the other OS's. This was from the announcement from Dr. Ousterhout. You don't have to be an expert in a language to understand the concept of 'radical changes'. > >> 3. It makes it easier for people to experiment with a never version > >> on their own. > > > >Ports already allows for this. > no. > > Try gcc for a prime example of how it doesn't work. Huh? There are lots of folks using the PGCC port. > >> 4. It takes up LESS space. > > > >BS. The *first* version takes up less space, but for every version > >afterwards it takes up *incredibly* more space. Every new import > >effectively doubles the space, since there is probably < 10% overlap in > >a uuencoded gzip file. > > du(1) our gcc versions to see if that holds water :-) I just did. It looks pretty good considering how many changes have been we've made. root:/home/CVS/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc # du -s 12530 . root:/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc # du -s 11534 . We're doing a darn good job of keeping things small. The CVS repository is less than 10% larger with *ALL* of the revisions than the actual source code. (Bad example, it actually encourages using CVS) > >> The discussion ? well, I have tried to start it several times, and > >> nobody seemed to care, so they obviously cannot feel too much about it > >> ? > > > >BS. I've argued against through email and in personal conversation. > >But Jordan agreed so it didn't matter. > Nate, curb your paranoia. There havn't been any discussion, because > it wasn't possible to start one. Curb your paranoia. There *was* an attempt to start a discussion but no-one wanted things changed. I have the email to prove it, so don't tell me no-one cared. > There still isn't, only a lot of > shouting from various "usual suspects" who are not willing to put up > with the maintenance of any of this stuff themselves. BS. Peter's doing the gcc port. I've done some of the 'trivial' ports, and done some of the gcc stuff. I've also done CVS (non-trivial) and plan on upgrading flex sometime soon. I haven't done a 'from-scratch' update any of groff/uucp/gcc, but those are the only *huge* ones, but because I haven't doesn't mean I'm incapable of understanding how difficult it is. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 08:26:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19363 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA19355; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watson.grauel.com (watson.grauel.com [199.233.104.36]) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA11031; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparcmill.grauel.com (sparcmill.grauel.com [199.233.104.34]) by watson.grauel.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA03877; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by sparcmill.grauel.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA24028; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:21:11 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:21:11 -0500 From: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns) Message-Id: <199606191521.KAA24028@sparcmill.grauel.com> To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606191153.MAA07207@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> References: <199606190353.NAA28433@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <480.835157755@critter.tfs.com> <199606191153.MAA07207@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'd like to comment, speaking as a proponent and user (for both enjoyment and Real Work(TM)) of FreeBSD; I do about 90% of my development under FreeBSD-stable right now. I'm also going to ignore personal comments. Paul Richards writes: ... > bmaking things is quite tricky, I did quite a lot of them when we > started out (including the first few versions of gcc 2 we used) so I do > know what's involved but it's worth the effort because it keeps *our* > tree clean and smaller since the stuff not needed isn't brought into > our tree. If something is going to use the ports mechanism why can't it > just stay in ports? > > One of the big pluses I've heard from users when comparing, say, FreeBSD > to Linux, it the unified build environment. You're now smashing that to > pieces. > >From my point of view, the comments in the first paragraph above apply ONLY to those persons maintaining the source tree, not to the people who use it. Unless I'm the person who's doing the work, I don't care if you use bmake, gnumake, dmake, or something else I've never heard of to control the actual dependency checking and recompilation; I just want to be able to either "cd" to the appropriate directory and type "make && make install" or "cd /usr/src; make world". > All you've done is moved the sources from the ports area into the main > source tree for no good reason whatsoever. If you have tools that you'd > like to see as part of the main tree that require tcl then there are > other ways to do it, such as simply making them check for the existence > of tcl and only installing them if it exists, then people can decide whether > they want the tcl tools or not. If these new tools are going to be such > an integral part of the system then commit yourselves to supporting tcl > as part of the base OS and bmake the thing. > > This is all really nasty, there's no compelling reason for tcl to be > brought into the main tree, tcl is on every system I administer; I use it extensively. Linked with the appropriate libraries, it can greatly speed the development of tools using those libraries. IMHO, bringing tcl into the main tree would encourage the growth and development of FreeBSD. > This whole tcl idea is just plain wrong Are you referring to bringing tcl into the main tree, to not making a `bmake port' of it, or using tcl in general? -- Rich Kuhns rjk@grauel.com PO Box 6249 Tel: (317)477-6000 x319 100 Sawmill Road Lafayette, IN 47903 From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 08:27:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19454 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA19446; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA05879; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:27:31 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:27:31 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191527.JAA05879@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <22601.835171642@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606190523.XAA04861@rocky.sri.MT.net> <22601.835171642@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Bullying people around isn't the best way to get things done. It does > > do a good job of getting people angry though. > > Well, I don't think Poul was up for bullying so much as he himself is > somewhat frustrated by the lack of response to previous attempts to do > something *like* this (note emphasis) and hasn't had much in the way > of response from people. I remember some *negative* responses myself, and can post them if need be. > In all fairness to Poul, we *have* been discussing a scheme like this > for over a year now and I've never seen it come anywhere comfortably > close to closure - the religious issues never do, somehow. See Bruce Evan's post. There is *no* need to change the current scheme. For *major* subsystems such as gcc we *shouldn't* change it often, and having it tightly coupled is a good thing. > I think we should also consider what we've gained here, namely the > "middle ground" between ports and src which we always knew was in our > future someday but have steadily tried to avoid. How is this any different from a port that sits in the tree, except for the bogus uuencoded tar-file in the Repository? > We knew it was in > our future because the prospect of re-bmaking every port we ever > wanted to ugrade, now and in the future, has traditionally _sucked_ > and we've hated it from day one. I agree with Bruce in that 'they aren't broke, so I don't have a burning desire to go fix them'. I'd have done flex a *long* time ago but the need to upgrade it is so slight to make it one of those 'down on the bottom of my list' things. It works great the way it is, so why bother upgrading. And, it doesn't take a *huge* amount of time to upgrade. Heck, PHK's 2.6 upgrade took less than 8 hours after the 2.6 release before he imported it into the tree, so it can't be *that* bad. > I know you've always liked the old scheme, but I don't think I ever > saw you raise your hand to become "bmake czar for eternity" either :-) But I'm willing to 'bmake' code (and have done so) in the same manner as I'm willing to generate code and integrate other bug fixes. No-one is solely responsible for doing any one task in the tree. It's something we all share. > > BS. I've argued against through email and in personal conversation. > > But Jordan agreed so it didn't matter. > > Oh c'mon Nate, this has nothing to do with some grand decision from > yours truly - this is simply the next logical step for things which > occupy the 3rd logical category of software - things which we need in > our base distributions but don't want to have to necessarily maintain > fully as FreeBSD components. Trying to deny the existance of a 3rd > category, smashing things into either /usr/src or /usr/ports, has come > at great cost on both sides. Either you're in bmake hell or you can't > rely on the feature at all because the ports collection isn't a > non-optional part of the system. This fact doesn't take an Einstein > to see, it's been obvious for a long time, and the fact that *neither* > of us has ever come up with a credible alternative is what led me to > stand out of the way when Poul decided to do what he did. I still disagree. Code maintenance is *critical* for anything that's a required part of the tree. It takes time to make it work, and spending the time to make it work in the tree is simply the cost of doing business. Should we forgot doing other platforms since it'll be too much work. The fact of the matter is that it 'doesn't take an Einstein to see that there are still lots of machine dependant code inside of our machine independant tree which will mean we will have a great loss of time changing our code to be better.' The best solution is to simply 'import' the NetBSD code into a different part of the tree (rather than merging it into our scheme) and re-badge it 'in the tree' and 'viola' we've gotten a bunch of new ports. This is akin to what's been done. > Unless > you've come up with some way of eliminating the bmake-munging process > for ports like gcc and groff Unless you can say that NO-ONE is willing to do the bmake-munging process for them, then this is a moot point. Apparently Peter already did, and I don't see a burning need for doing groff. However, having said that I *will* do groff if you feel that upgrading groff is more important the the laptop work. This also means that the current integration work I'm trying to do with Hosokawa will fall even further behind and make things more difficult later. *IF* you think that these things are critical, then say something about it and let the rest of us agree/disagree. Only then can you say that 'we need a better solution'. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 08:29:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19633 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA19624 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA05885; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:29:24 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:29:24 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191529.JAA05885@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Bruce Evans Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, nate@sri.MT.net Subject: Re: (Mis)feature of the current make macros In-Reply-To: <199606191223.WAA15182@godzilla.zeta.org.au> References: <199606191223.WAA15182@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans writes: > >I noticed this with the PC-CARD stuff, but if you have a man-page > >definition, ../Makefile.inc gets included twice. Normally this isn't a > >problem, but in the case where you set something with '+=' you'll end up > >with it added to the variable twice. > > This was fixed in rev.1.5 of bsd.man.mk but I broke it again in rev.1.6. > > >Is there any Makefile that only includes ? If so, should > >it? If not, we can remove the inclusion of ../Makefile.inc. > > I don't think so. We don't have a clear distinction between the primary > and the secondary .mk files. The secondary ones certainly shouldn't > include things that the primary ones have already included. Perhaps > all .mk files should be idempotent and self-sufficient like all .h files > should be. > > .if !defined(_foo_mk_) > _foo_mk_= > .include > .endif !_foo_mk_ > > Is this the right style? .ifndef works but is never used in *.mk... It works for me, but it doesn't solve the problem of the .mk files doing the same things. Even if we've never included , if we've included any of the other .mk files that includes ../Makefile.inc it shouldn't also include it. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 08:54:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21867 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA21860 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA19234; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:54:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:54:13 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606191554.AA19234@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: James Raynard Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] In-Reply-To: <199606181341.NAA00521@jraynard.demon.co.uk> References: <9606171557.AA01047@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> <199606181341.NAA00521@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > I don't follow. If the ktrace() system call took a file descriptor > allocated by the ktrace program as its first argument, and used that > to find the vnode to write the trace information to, how would that > involve disturbing the file descriptor table of the process being > debugged? (Except perhaps for pathological cases like trying to get a > running ktrace process to debug itself). The original poster suggested sending it to standard output, which is (generally speaking) not a useful place for binary trace data to go because whatever is interpreting the real output of the program can't deal with it. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 08:57:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA22277 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA22262; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA19493; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:56:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:56:58 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606191556.AA19493@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <22601.835171642@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606190523.XAA04861@rocky.sri.MT.net> <22601.835171642@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > Now I've also had the benefit of having Poul talk to me about this for > a couple of days beforehand, so I know his intentions were purer than > you suspect - I don't expect you to have the benefit of the additional > context, so I'm trying to explain here. It would have been nice if he had talked to me, too... and perhaps about five or ten other people who he knew would probably have opinions on the subject. > future someday but have steadily tried to avoid. We knew it was in > our future because the prospect of re-bmaking every port we ever > wanted to ugrade, now and in the future, has traditionally _sucked_ > and we've hated it from day one. Speak for yourself. I've never had any difficulty in writing a Berkeley-style makefile. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 09:04:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22811 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22759; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA24300; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:02:23 -0700 (PDT) To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:53:42 BST." <199606191153.MAA07207@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:02:23 -0700 Message-ID: <24298.835200143@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unfortunately, it's a fact of life in FreeBSD these days that certain > people in core consider FreeBSD to be theirs and don't see any need to Needless to say, I disagree rather totally with Paul's summary of this situation but I'm not going to waste my time rebutting his individual points. Every time I've gotten sucked into one of Paul's impassioned shit-stirring debates I've regretted it. Not this time. The message may be worth debating, but this particular messenger has lost all credibility with me and by all appearances, it's only a good fight he wants. Any larger purpose is notable only by its absence. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 09:14:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23741 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA23721; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA20231; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:12:53 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:13:11 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA21235; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:12:28 +0100 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:12:28 +0100 Message-Id: <199606191612.RAA21235@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> To: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns) Cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606191521.KAA24028@sparcmill.grauel.com> References: <199606190353.NAA28433@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <480.835157755@critter.tfs.com> <199606191153.MAA07207@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> <199606191521.KAA24028@sparcmill.grauel.com> Reply-To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk From: Paul Richards X-Attribution: Paul X-Mailer: GNU Emacs [19.30.1], RMAIL, Mailcrypt [3.3] Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Richard" == Richard J Kuhns writes: Richard> Paul Richards writes: ... >> From my point of view, the comments in the first paragraph above >> apply ONLY Richard> to those persons maintaining the source tree, not to the Richard> people who use it. Unless I'm the person who's doing the Richard> work, I don't care if you use bmake, gnumake, dmake, or Richard> something else I've never heard of to control the actual Richard> dependency checking and recompilation; I just want to be able Richard> to either "cd" to the appropriate directory and type "make && Richard> make install" or "cd /usr/src; make world". I disagree, even as just a user of the tree the tcl port is broken since it doesn't pay any attention to the controls that I use when building my src tree, I listed some examples such as NOPROFILE and the obj dir.. >> This is all really nasty, there's no compelling reason for tcl to >> be brought into the main tree, Richard> tcl is on every system I administer; I use it extensively. Richard> Linked with the appropriate libraries, it can greatly speed Richard> the development of tools using those libraries. IMHO, Richard> bringing tcl into the main tree would encourage the growth Richard> and development of FreeBSD. It was easily accessible in ports. >> This whole tcl idea is just plain wrong Richard> Are you referring to bringing tcl into the main tree, to not Richard> making a `bmake port' of it, or using tcl in general? -- Specifically not bmaking it. I'm not that bothered about it being brought into the main tree if it had been done properly. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 09:21:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA24427 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24420 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA19066; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:20:52 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:20:52 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606191620.AA19066@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Daniel M. Eischen" Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, fenner@parc.xerox.com Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly. In-Reply-To: <9606190146.AA01599@iworks.InterWorks.org> References: <9606190146.AA01599@iworks.InterWorks.org> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > Add interface ppp0 204.213.233.105 --> 204.213.232.3 metric=1 > turn on RIP > Add 204.213.232.3/32--> 204.213.233.105 metric=1 ppp0 21:45:28 > Add 204.213.233.105/32--> 127.0.0.1 metric=1 ppp0 21:45:28 > Send RIPv2 REQUEST to 204.213.232.3.520 via ppp0 > sendto(ppp0, 204.213.232.3.520): Network is down > Chg interface ppp0 204.213.233.105 --> 204.213.232.3 metric=1 > Chg 204.213.232.3/32--> 204.213.233.105 metric=1 ppp0 > 204.213.232.3/32--> metric=16 - hold-down=10 21:43:28 This part looks curious. Note here that it's trying to send a RIP message to the other side of your PPP link and getting an ENETDOWN error. I'm guessing that the following code is what's causing it: (from if_ppp.c) if (sc->sc_devp == NULL || (ifp->if_flags & IFF_RUNNING) == 0 || (ifp->if_flags & IFF_UP) == 0 && dst->sa_family != AF_UNSPEC) { error = ENETDOWN; /* sort of */ goto bad; } What this seems to be saying is: `if there is no TTY attached, or if the interface is not RUNNING, or if both the interface is not UP and the attempted write is not for family AF_UNSPEC (meaning raw PPP)'. My guess would be that there is some window in between the time that the interface is configured as UP, and the time that it is configured as RUNNING (perhaps there is some IPCP transaction that has to go on here), and that `routed' is attempting to send on an interface that is in such a state. Here is an experiment you might try... in /usr/src/usr.sbin/routed/defs.h, look for the lines: #ifdef sgi #define IFF_UP_RUNNING (IFF_RUNNING|IFF_UP) #else #define IFF_UP_RUNNING IFF_UP #endif ...and change the `#ifdef sgi' to `#if 1' and see what happens. You might have to fix up a few interfaces in the kernel (like the loopback) so that they properly set IFF_RUNNING in order for this to work. (I will do so in -current.) Also, if you are getting lots of IP_[ADD|DROP]_MEMBERSHIP warnings, try defining MCAST_PPP_BUG. I don't think that this should be necessary, but it can't hurt to try. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 09:31:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25903 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA25892 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id CAA24620; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:24:30 +1000 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:24:30 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606191624.CAA24620@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, nate@sri.MT.net Subject: Re: (Mis)feature of the current make macros Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> .if !defined(_foo_mk_) >> _foo_mk_= >> .include >> .endif !_foo_mk_ >It works for me, but it doesn't solve the problem of the .mk files doing >the same things. Even if we've never included , if we've >included any of the other .mk files that includes ../Makefile.inc it >shouldn't also include it. It solves precisely that problem. The .mk files are more or less guaranteed to include ../Makefile.inc and they should protect themselves against multiple inclusion. Makefiles in /usr/src should never include ../Makefile.inc. Some of them have to include ../../Makefile.inc. This alweays happens in nested directories, e.g., in routed the top-level Makefile.inc includes ../../Makefile.inc and the directories underneath it rely ony bsd.prog.mk including ../Makefile.inc (which is in routed and not in /usr/src/usr.sbin). This could be handled better if `make' handled include paths more like C compilers - most Makefiles simply want to include the Makefile.inc from a top level directory just beneath /usr/src. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 09:37:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA26967 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA26947 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA20403 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:36:13 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:36:31 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA28147; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:35:46 +0100 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:35:46 +0100 Message-Id: <199606191635.RAA28147@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <24298.835200143@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606191153.MAA07207@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> <24298.835200143@time.cdrom.com> Reply-To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk From: Paul Richards X-Attribution: Paul X-Mailer: GNU Emacs [19.30.1], RMAIL, Mailcrypt [3.3] Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> ""Jordan" == "Jordan K Hubbard" writes: >> Unfortunately, it's a fact of life in FreeBSD these days that >> certain people in core consider FreeBSD to be theirs and don't see >> any need to "Jordan> Needless to say, I disagree rather totally with Paul's "Jordan> summary of this situation but I'm not going to waste my time "Jordan> rebutting his individual points. Every time I've gotten "Jordan> sucked into one of Paul's impassioned shit-stirring debates "Jordan> I've regretted it. Not this time. The message may be worth "Jordan> debating, but this particular messenger has lost all "Jordan> credibility with me and by all appearances, it's only a good "Jordan> fight he wants. Any larger purpose is notable only by its "Jordan> absence. No-one here has any recollection of any discussion taking place regarding this and all responses have been opposed to it. I'm really not interested in a fight at all, I just don't want the tree to get full of crap like this and if you were willing to discuss such major changes with us all such bad feeling would never arise in the first place. I'm pissed off by the attitude you have that technical discussions just hold up progress and to just go it alone with whatever idea you happen to agree with. Changing the policy of bmaking everything in the main tree seems quite significant to me and not a decision that was yours to make alone and you clearly haven't considered all the implications of such a change. Can we hold off on this until people have had a chance to comment, the clear consensus is that this is a bad move. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 09:43:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27883 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA27871 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA06161; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:43:01 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:43:01 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191643.KAA06161@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Bruce Evans Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: (Mis)feature of the current make macros In-Reply-To: <199606191624.CAA24620@godzilla.zeta.org.au> References: <199606191624.CAA24620@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans writes: > >> .if !defined(_foo_mk_) > >> _foo_mk_= > >> .include > >> .endif !_foo_mk_ > > >It works for me, but it doesn't solve the problem of the .mk files doing > >the same things. Even if we've never included , if we've > >included any of the other .mk files that includes ../Makefile.inc it > >shouldn't also include it. > > It solves precisely that problem. How given the example I used? I'm assuming you're using the above construct in the .mk files. > The .mk files are more or less > guaranteed to include ../Makefile.inc and they should protect themselves > against multiple inclusion. The /usr/src Makefile has: .include bsd.prog.mk checks for and sets '_prog_mk_', and includes ../Makefile.inc. bsd.prog.mk sees that there is a man-page definition, so it also includes bsd.prog.mk. bsd.prog.mk checks and and sets '_man_mk_' and *also* includes ../Makefile.inc. Neither .mk files in included twice but the supporting Makefile.inc is. Am I missing something? Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 09:53:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29379 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29372; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199606191653.JAA29372@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <22601.835171642@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 19, 96 01:07:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > you've come up with some way of eliminating the bmake-munging process > for ports like gcc and groff, I'd suggest you just let the man finish > what he started and admit to yourself that you've got no better plan > of your own to offer ("stay right where we are" being an option only > to those who don't have to do the bmake integration work every time :-). Jordan, Poul, bmake'ing tcl, gcc, groff, etc...every time a new version comes out is a real pain. so is having a monster like this in the cvs tree. bmake'ing gmake and having gmake a prerequisite for these other GNU components is ugly (two make programs: gmake and bmake) but avoids both problems. i imagine that there are other cvs issues here that escape me but what of incorporating gmake and using it in place of bmake for GNU stuff. and not bringing in these monster tarballs. workable? acceptable? jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 09:57:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29577 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA29572; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA06240; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:56:31 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:56:31 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191656.KAA06240@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), nate@sri.MT.net, phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606191653.JAA29372@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <22601.835171642@time.cdrom.com> <199606191653.JAA29372@freefall.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > you've come up with some way of eliminating the bmake-munging process > > for ports like gcc and groff, I'd suggest you just let the man finish > > what he started and admit to yourself that you've got no better plan > > of your own to offer ("stay right where we are" being an option only > > to those who don't have to do the bmake integration work every time :-). > > Jordan, Poul, > > bmake'ing tcl, gcc, groff, etc...every time a new version comes > out is a real pain. so is having a monster like this in the > cvs tree. > > bmake'ing gmake and having gmake a prerequisite for these other > GNU components is ugly (two make programs: gmake and bmake) but > avoids both problems. Actually no. Bmake should be able to handle building these programs, so it's not an issue of 'just building it' IMHO. > workable? acceptable? We're trying to *avoid* adding GPL'd components to the tree, and if we use Gmake we make the tree unusable for anyone trying to use FreeBSD for 'other' purposes, which is one of the tenets ofthe BSD vs. GPL licensing scheme. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 10:06:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00418 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00412 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id DAA25855; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:04:42 +1000 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:04:42 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606191704.DAA25855@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, nate@sri.MT.net Subject: Re: (Mis)feature of the current make macros Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> It solves precisely that problem. >How given the example I used? I'm assuming you're using the above >construct in the .mk files. I lost the original example. Of course you have to protect against multiple inclusion everywhere it might happen and be a problem. >> The .mk files are more or less >> guaranteed to include ../Makefile.inc and they should protect themselves >> against multiple inclusion. >The /usr/src Makefile has: >.include >bsd.prog.mk checks for and sets '_prog_mk_', and includes >../Makefile.inc. bsd.prog.mk sees that there is a man-page definition, >so it also includes bsd.prog.mk. bsd.prog.mk checks and and sets >'_man_mk_' and *also* includes ../Makefile.inc. Neither .mk files in >included twice but the supporting Makefile.inc is. >Am I missing something? The protection for ../Makefile.inc. This has to be in *.mk and not in the individual Makefile.inc's because one place's ../Makefile.inc is another place's ../../Makefile.inc. *.mk really shouldn't be including ../Makefile.inc since it's an application header but it's too hard to change now. Perhaps the average Makefile should have included ../Makefile.inc instead of and let ../Makefile.inc include . Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 10:17:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01639 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA01630; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA24616; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:17:32 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:27:31 MDT." <199606191527.JAA05879@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:17:32 -0700 Message-ID: <24614.835204652@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unless you can say that NO-ONE is willing to do the bmake-munging > process for them, then this is a moot point. Apparently Peter already > did, and I don't see a burning need for doing groff. By now you've alraedy read my other responses so I'll not belabor the point. Suffice it to say that I don't see an abundance or scarcity of `bmakers' as the issue so much as I do the difficulty involved. I'd hoped we could get off that treadmill. If it weren't difficult then you wouldn't even have to say: > However, having said that I *will* do groff if you feel that upgrading > groff is more important the the laptop work. This also means that the > current integration work I'm trying to do with Hosokawa will fall even > further behind and make things more difficult later. We could "Just Do It" and it wouldn't be the big bad wolf which requires so much work that you've gotta drop everything to do it. That was merely my point. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 10:19:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01810 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01800; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:19:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199606191719.KAA01800@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:19:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606191656.KAA06240@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 19, 96 10:56:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > you've come up with some way of eliminating the bmake-munging process > > > for ports like gcc and groff, I'd suggest you just let the man finish > > > what he started and admit to yourself that you've got no better plan > > > of your own to offer ("stay right where we are" being an option only > > > to those who don't have to do the bmake integration work every time :-). > > > > Jordan, Poul, > > > > bmake'ing tcl, gcc, groff, etc...every time a new version comes > > out is a real pain. so is having a monster like this in the > > cvs tree. > > > > bmake'ing gmake and having gmake a prerequisite for these other > > GNU components is ugly (two make programs: gmake and bmake) but > > avoids both problems. > > Actually no. Bmake should be able to handle building these programs, so > it's not an issue of 'just building it' IMHO. from what jordan wrote, it seems that bmak'ing these programs is an arduous task that no one is eager to take on. at least some of those that have been doing it are tiring of the process. using gmake for them would reduce the burden of porting these programs. > > workable? acceptable? > > We're trying to *avoid* adding GPL'd components to the tree, and if we > use Gmake we make the tree unusable for anyone trying to use FreeBSD for > 'other' purposes, which is one of the tenets ofthe BSD vs. GPL licensing > scheme. for now we are stuck with some GPL'd components (gcc, groff minimum). do i want GPL'ed components? NO! but i aint written replacements either ;( i dont understand how using gmake for GNU programs is more evil than using gcc for all of FreeBSD. if the build tool "contaminates" the resulting binary...all of FreeBSD is in that boat. so that must not be the case. we would only use gmake for GPL'ed programs. this adds one GPL'ed tool only. it may result in people porting more GPL'ed tools. they dont have to go into the core-system. for that matter neither does gmake. some people run FreeBSD without ever recompiling anything (it does happen, strange as it seems to me :) jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 10:20:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01918 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA01911; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA06390; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:19:59 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:19:59 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191719.LAA06390@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <24614.835204652@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606191527.JAA05879@rocky.sri.MT.net> <24614.835204652@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > Unless you can say that NO-ONE is willing to do the bmake-munging > > process for them, then this is a moot point. Apparently Peter already > > did, and I don't see a burning need for doing groff. > > By now you've alraedy read my other responses so I'll not belabor the > point. Suffice it to say that I don't see an abundance or scarcity of > `bmakers' as the issue so much as I do the difficulty involved. Again, my arguement is that the 'difficulty' is part and parcel of being in the tree. > I'd hoped we could get off that treadmill. If it weren't difficult > then you wouldn't even have to say: See above. It's a worthwhile difficulty, in the same manner as re-writing the VM system was worthwhile and adding laptop capability was worthwhile. The time spent isn't always fun, but the resultant product is. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 10:28:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02772 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA02763 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uWR3K-0004KCC; Wed, 19 Jun 96 10:28 PDT Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:28:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fetch - time to kill ncftp? In-Reply-To: <4103.835183596@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Ya know, the only reason I ever brought ncftp into the source tree was > so that bsd.port.mk could use it, and now that we have `fetch' I'm > wondering if we might not throw a bone to the anti-bloatists and move > ncftp back to the ports collection? > > If there are no major outcries to the contrary, I'll do it in a few > days. > > Jordan Well, since NcFTP 2 is so much better anyway, and it is in the ports collection, I wouldn't care if you get rid of NcFTP 1. ---Jake From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 10:47:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04858 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04846 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA12478; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606191747.KAA12478@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: fetch - time to kill ncftp? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:47:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4103.835183596@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 19, 96 04:26:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I dunno I kinda like it.. if id is nuked, then please make sure it goes into ports.. dos based users like the little bar-graph :) julian > > > Ya know, the only reason I ever brought ncftp into the source tree was > so that bsd.port.mk could use it, and now that we have `fetch' I'm > wondering if we might not throw a bone to the anti-bloatists and move > ncftp back to the ports collection? > > If there are no major outcries to the contrary, I'll do it in a few > days. > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:03:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06475 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06466; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA24858; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:00:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:19:59 MDT." <199606191719.LAA06390@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:00:49 -0700 Message-ID: <24855.835207249@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > See above. It's a worthwhile difficulty, in the same manner as > re-writing the VM system was worthwhile and adding laptop capability was > worthwhile. The time spent isn't always fun, but the resultant product > is. I think that "worthwhile difficulty" is not the argument we should be having here since it's more a question of "necessary difficulty." Arguing worth is a straw man. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:09:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06828 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA06807; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13373; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:07:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191807.LAA13373@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Bug in NFS To: phk@FreeBSD.ORG (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:07:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: pst@shockwave.com, bde@zeta.org.au, tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <11086.835121669@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jun 18, 96 11:14:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Is symbolic link support working in devfs? > > > >I need to do little things like ln -s /dev/cuaa1 /dev/gps0 > >for xntpd. > > For xntpd you can do > ln -s /dev/cuaa1 /etc/gps0 > and it will work :-) or /var/dev/gps0, and fix xntpd. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:11:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06974 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA06969 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13382; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:08:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191808.LAA13382@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Bug in NFS To: julian@ref.tfs.com (JULIAN Elischer) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:08:57 -0700 (MST) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, tony@fit.qut.edu.au, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606180935.CAA07763@ref.tfs.com> from "JULIAN Elischer" at Jun 18, 96 02:35:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > or use DEVFS on the client I don't suppose you have a comprehensive "using devfs and renaming /dev to /mud" guide squirreled away anywhere? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:16:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07278 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA07242; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13396; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:12:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191812.LAA13396@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: laptop installations To: imb@scgt.oz.au (michael butler) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:12:04 -0700 (MST) Cc: phk@FreeBSD.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606191257.WAA12116@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> from "michael butler" at Jun 19, 96 10:57:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Well, some laptops do have slower busses and some pcmcia cards are slow > > by themselves... > > My current problem is not so much lack of bus speed but being able to talk > to the card at all. The AST J10 doesn't use the hard-coded addresses at port > 0x3Cx as implemented in the existing pccard driver. It seems to use a PCI > bridge and the PCMCIA controller (a Cirrus 672x) which appears at port > 0xfcfc. Attempts to probe for more than two cards hang the laptop :-( > > Having found that, I now have some diagnostics about not being able to > assign an I/O port .. it's getting there .. > > The symptoms are identical with the D-link 650CT and the 3C589C, Have you tried one of Nate or the Nomads' PCCARD capable boot disks? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:18:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07349 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA07344 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13420; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:15:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191815.LAA13420@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: supservers To: faulkner@asgard.bga.com (Boyd R. Faulkner) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:15:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606181800.NAA02166@utgard.bga.com> from "Boyd R. Faulkner" at Jun 18, 96 01:00:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Where did sup2.freebsd.org go? I have switched to sup5 but I am > receiving, not updating every file I have. This could take a while. > Anybody have a clue? I don't know -- my log has "no route to host". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:23:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07549 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA07542; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13463; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:20:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191820.LAA13463@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Heads-up! gcc-2.7.2 on the way! To: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:20:44 -0700 (MST) Cc: current@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606182214.GAA16141@spinner.DIALix.COM> from "Peter Wemm" at Jun 19, 96 06:14:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This should be done in a day or two, so now is the time to speak up if you > have anything to say on the subject....... BSD shared libraries? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:32:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07919 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA07904; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA06763; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:31:16 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:31:16 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191831.MAA06763@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: peter@spinner.dialix.com (Peter Wemm), current@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Heads-up! gcc-2.7.2 on the way! In-Reply-To: <199606191820.LAA13463@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606182214.GAA16141@spinner.DIALix.COM> <199606191820.LAA13463@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This should be done in a day or two, so now is the time to speak up if you > > have anything to say on the subject....... > > BSD shared libraries? That's a function of gas and GNU-ld, neither of which are being updated at this time. And, I believe we *could* update gas as well if we wanted to, though if we stick with a.out the version of GNU-ld we have is not going to change. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:34:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07983 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA07978 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ginger.eng.umd.edu (ginger.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.204]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA20807 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by ginger.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01364; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:34:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:34:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@ginger.eng.umd.edu To: FreeBSD current Subject: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Twice recently I have had ctm mailbomb me with big updates, and I guess everyone else who uses ctm has had that happen too. My mail capacity was big engough to manage, but I'm just a little worried about the near future. If some care isn't taken, when the new gcc gets imported into current, well, gcc is big enough to overflow probably everyone's mailbox, no matter what size each individual ctm update is limited to. I just hope that ctm is taken into account, when gcc is brought up to 2.7.2, else there's gonna me one enormous mail snafu. There's several different ways to handle this, I don't care how it's finally decided, I just don't want ctm trying to send me 25 megabytes of mail all in one day. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:41:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08318 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08310; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA00804; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:37:55 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199606191837.UAA00804@grumble.grondar.za> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:37:54 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > Unless you can say that NO-ONE is willing to do the bmake-munging > > process for them, then this is a moot point. Apparently Peter already > > did, and I don't see a burning need for doing groff. > > By now you've alraedy read my other responses so I'll not belabor the > point. Suffice it to say that I don't see an abundance or scarcity of > `bmakers' as the issue so much as I do the difficulty involved. I'd > hoped we could get off that treadmill. If it weren't difficult then > you wouldn't even have to say: How about meeting the problem half way? I see it sorta like this; folks are objecting to this large invariant file in the repository, and the alternative is being suggested as bmaking tcl. I say, why not _not_ bmake tcl, let it "all hang out" in its original format, except untarred and with patches applied, and let its own build do the work (modulo some makefile diffs (destdir etc)). diffs can easily be generated with 'cvs diff'. Further versions {c|sh}ould be imported on vendor branches. Same could apply to gcc, perl, etc... M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:44:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08467 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08454; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13530; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:40:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191840.LAA13530@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:40:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606191521.KAA24028@sparcmill.grauel.com> from "Richard J Kuhns" at Jun 19, 96 10:21:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This is all really nasty, there's no compelling reason for tcl to be > > brought into the main tree, > > tcl is on every system I administer; I use it extensively. Linked with the > appropriate libraries, it can greatly speed the development of tools using > those libraries. IMHO, bringing tcl into the main tree would encourage the > growth and development of FreeBSD. I have to say that the issue is real, but I also do not agree with the need for TCL. TCL uses a tool encapsulation model, requiring TCL changes to match corresponding tool changes when they occur to the embedded tool. This is grossly inefficient and unmodular. If the issue is building reusable interface code instead of throw away code, then the issue is not one of scripting, but one of passive data activation. The difference is that scripting is not appropriate for ensuring code reuse, whereas data activation requires only the use of activation tools applied against a (preferrably) extensible schema. The issue of whether a data set and a tool to manipulate it are interfaced by a shell script, a text menu, or a GUI, are all irrelevant to the decision. This issue was discussed in the "adduser" discussion; I think I put forth a good case for data interfaces instead of code interfaces, and provided sample code and design information to the cause. There is no reason to bring in an interpreter that has as it's primary benefit the ability to easily implement what is, effectively, "throw away code". I believe "throw away code" should not be encouraged in the source tree. Many of us have a long history, either as employees or as tier-one developers for major UNIX systems houses. The reason we are here is to Do The Right Thing The Right Way. If we wanted any less, we would allow design decisions to be dictated by expediency, and we are capable of finding that in our normal everyday jobs. We are here *precisely* to escape that kind of mediocrity. This does *not* mean that there are not instances where "throw away code" is not desirable, only that enabling such should be an add-on, not an inherent property of FreeBSD itself. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:44:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08506 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08501 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA06814; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:43:27 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:43:27 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191843.MAA06814@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Mark Murray Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606191837.UAA00804@grumble.grondar.za> References: <199606191837.UAA00804@grumble.grondar.za> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I say, why not _not_ bmake tcl, let it "all hang out" in its original > format, except untarred and with patches applied, and let its own > build do the work (modulo some makefile diffs (destdir etc)). diffs > can easily be generated with 'cvs diff'. Further versions {c|sh}ould > be imported on vendor branches. Because all of the 'Berkeley' targets don't work. 'make depend all install clean cleandir obj' etc.. are *useful* (nay critical) for some installations. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:49:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08690 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08684; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13578; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:47:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191847.LAA13578@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:47:05 -0700 (MST) Cc: phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9606191454.AA18527@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Jun 19, 96 10:54:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As someone who maintains the only parts of our `external' tree that > were ever correctly imported in the first place, I can tell you from > first-hand experience that it works damn well, thank you very much, if > the importers can be bothered to do it right. I am not willing to > declare defeat, and I don't want unreadable binary garbage in the > SOURCE tree. I have to agree with Garrett with regards to the use of corrected vendor branches. The benefit is well worth the cost, in the long run. One of my favorite arguments about expenditure of effort is the compiler writer vs. the compiler user. I believe that if compiler users outnumber compiler writers 1000 to 1, then anything that will save 1 hour of user time is worth 1000 hours of effort by the compiler writer. A more recent (though exagerated) example was presented in the PBS series "Triumph of the Nerds", in which it was purported that Steve Jobs had a conversation with a programmer similar to: SJ: I know it boots fast, but can you make it boot faster? P: I don't think so... SJ: Think about it! If you save *5* seconds on the boot, and there are a million of these in offices across the country, then you are saving 30 *lives* a day! Take the long view. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:52:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08891 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08886 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id OAA21371; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:51:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: JULIAN Elischer cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fetch - time to kill ncftp? In-Reply-To: <199606191747.KAA12478@ref.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, JULIAN Elischer wrote: > I dunno > I kinda like it.. > if id is nuked, then please make sure it goes into ports.. > dos based users like the little bar-graph :) > - little bar-graph is nice - bookmark file of sites accessed (/hosts) is nice - history of commands is nice - including the fact that it remembers even after you exit ncftp (similar to bash/tcsh) Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 11:57:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09081 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09075 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA06876; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:56:16 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:56:16 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191856.MAA06876@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606191840.LAA13530@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606191521.KAA24028@sparcmill.grauel.com> <199606191840.LAA13530@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Allow me to wax for a quick moment. This is the *only* post I'll make on this topic ] > Many of us have a long history, either as employees or as tier-one > developers for major UNIX systems houses. The reason we are here > is to Do The Right Thing The Right Way. Actually, the reason I'm here is because this is 'fun'. And, there is prestige to be had for being a contributor. The latter is the reason we do things the 'right way', because if you do crappy work the prestige is lessened. However, sometimes 'the right way' gets in the way of 'fun', due to time constraints and other issues, so the developers settle for 'the best job given the current situation'. If that means using TCL and having a workable solution next week vs. spending 2 years writing a end-all/be-all/do-all front-end that is the 100% correct solution then I'm for using TCL. That doesn't mean 'crap' is allowed, but there are certain tradeoffs that are acceptable, such as allowing GPL'd code into the tree when there is nothing BSDish that fits the bill. But, it also means that we didn't accept the SVR3 style shlib either because in the long-run it'd make like *more* difficult for both the developers *and* users. Claiming that we only do the '100%' pure thing is simply leading people astray. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:02:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09360 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA09342; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA13628; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:56:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191856.LAA13628@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:56:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606191656.KAA06240@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 19, 96 10:56:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We're trying to *avoid* adding GPL'd components to the tree, and if we > use Gmake we make the tree unusable for anyone trying to use FreeBSD for > 'other' purposes, which is one of the tenets ofthe BSD vs. GPL licensing > scheme. Actually, this is a false-cause argument, since the GCC that is supposed to be "bmake'd" is itself GPL. The argument, however, *does* carry significant weight with regard to non-GPL code that required GNU tools to make it function. I think it is possible to subdivide the policy problem; however, under no circumstances can I see how it would be beneficial to import code in such a way as to prevent local delta's from being applied to a vendor branch. The "uuencoded tarball" method strikes me as singularly unpleasent. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:03:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09402 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09283 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id TAA03498; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:57:54 +0100 (BST) To: Terry Lambert cc: faulkner@asgard.bga.com (Boyd R. Faulkner), current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: supservers In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:15:20 PDT." <199606191815.LAA13420@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:57:53 +0100 Message-ID: <3496.835210673@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote in message ID <199606191815.LAA13420@phaeton.artisoft.com>: > > Where did sup2.freebsd.org go? I have switched to sup5 but I am > > receiving, not updating every file I have. This could take a while. > > Anybody have a clue? > > I don't know -- my log has "no route to host". Am I the only person who read PST's announcement to freebsd-hubs that sup2 was going to be down while it was relocated onto a new network? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:07:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09708 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09699; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA25292; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:06:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Murray cc: Nate Williams , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:37:54 +0200." <199606191837.UAA00804@grumble.grondar.za> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:06:15 -0700 Message-ID: <25290.835211175@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How about meeting the problem half way? > > I see it sorta like this; folks are objecting to this large invariant file > in the repository, and the alternative is being suggested as bmaking tcl. > > I say, why not _not_ bmake tcl, let it "all hang out" in its original > format, except untarred and with patches applied, and let its own > build do the work (modulo some makefile diffs (destdir etc)). diffs > can easily be generated with 'cvs diff'. Further versions {c|sh}ould > be imported on vendor branches. There are problems with this too, unfortunately. The essential problem is the obj dir, bane of our existance and utter hack into make (did you know that bmake has inbuilt knowledge of the obj directory and how to use it? Yuck! Talk about a policy layering violation). To make obj work in the scenario where the package isn't actively bmake'd (e.g. it still uses its original makefiles) for example isn't easy. Take a read-only /usr/src and a package which would like to modify or remove certain files during its configure stage - how do you do that? The only technique I can think of which would work as a general rule would be to make a link tree in ${.OBJDIR} pointing at the patched sources, doing your builds there. Instead of extracting the tarball as we do now, you'd create a link tree to some source location. Pretty gross, no matter how you slice it! If obj wasn't such a gross hack then I'd feel better about going the extra mile to accomodate it, but all I can think about is how to drive a stake through its heart once and for all. The obj links have caused me serious and ongoing hassles with trying to keep multiple machines up to date from one single NFS mounted source tree, and they actually _break_ our read-only source paradigm since you can't do a `make world' in a read-only tree. The attempt to remove and rebuild the obj links (which should only serve as further proof, if any was lacking, that this is a DEEPLY FLAWED mechanism of separating source and objects) will fall over. I think instead that each bmake'd package needs to have some concept of a non-optional (yes, *non* optional) "build aside" area where it can work and get at its sources through the already well-defined VPATH mechanism, not some cheesy symlink. As the first action before building anything, a package would do some equivalent of a `mkdir -p ${OBJTREE}/${.CURDIR}' to construct its build-aside area before cd'ing over there for the build. There would then be no need for a comprehensive "build all the obj links from the top before making the world" run - those dirs being made instead as they were needed - and make would have no magic special handling going on, the "obj policy" would be entirely done through the macros as it should have been from the very beginning. Oh yeah, the tree would also finally be sharable and read-only since you could set ${OBJTREE} to whatever you wished in /etc/make.conf. Perhaps once we've fixed this wart I'll be more optimistic about grand architectures again, but for now I think it's simply too much in our way. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:09:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09868 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09834 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02531; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:05:50 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199606191905.VAA02531@grumble.grondar.za> To: Nate Williams cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:05:48 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > > I say, why not _not_ bmake tcl, let it "all hang out" in its original > > format, except untarred and with patches applied, and let its own > > build do the work (modulo some makefile diffs (destdir etc)). diffs > > can easily be generated with 'cvs diff'. Further versions {c|sh}ould > > be imported on vendor branches. > > Because all of the 'Berkeley' targets don't work. > > 'make depend all install clean cleandir obj' etc.. are *useful* (nay > critical) for some installations. But... This is half my point. If this lot was in a directory (say contrib or whatever) then these 'Berkeley' targets don't have to work in each subdir. The contrib/Makefile {c|sh}ould be taught how to do the right thing. M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:09:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09917 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA09910; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA13677; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:06:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191906.MAA13677@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Heads-up! gcc-2.7.2 on the way! To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:06:33 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, peter@spinner.dialix.com, current@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606191831.MAA06763@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 19, 96 12:31:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > This should be done in a day or two, so now is the time to speak up if you > > > have anything to say on the subject....... > > > > BSD shared libraries? > > That's a function of gas and GNU-ld, neither of which are being updated > at this time. And, I believe we *could* update gas as well if we wanted > to, though if we stick with a.out the version of GNU-ld we have is not > going to change. I assume that the strength reduction stuff is disabled in the port, then. How does this square with the new g++ library stuff? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:10:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10058 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA10034; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA06993; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:09:17 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:09:17 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191909.NAA06993@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), peter@spinner.dialix.com, current@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Heads-up! gcc-2.7.2 on the way! In-Reply-To: <199606191906.MAA13677@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606191831.MAA06763@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606191906.MAA13677@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > > > This should be done in a day or two, so now is the time to speak up if you > > > > have anything to say on the subject....... > > > > > > BSD shared libraries? > > > > That's a function of gas and GNU-ld, neither of which are being updated > > at this time. And, I believe we *could* update gas as well if we wanted > > to, though if we stick with a.out the version of GNU-ld we have is not > > going to change. > > I assume that the strength reduction stuff is disabled in the port, then. I believe one of the patches fixes that bug. > How does this square with the new g++ library stuff? They go hand-in-hand. You can't have one w/out the other, hence the reason both are going in at the same time. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:11:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10112 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA10088; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA07010; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:11:09 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:11:09 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606191911.NAA07010@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Gary Palmer" Cc: Terry Lambert , faulkner@asgard.bga.com (Boyd R. Faulkner), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: supservers In-Reply-To: <3496.835210673@palmer.demon.co.uk> References: <199606191815.LAA13420@phaeton.artisoft.com> <3496.835210673@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Palmer writes: > Terry Lambert wrote in message ID > <199606191815.LAA13420@phaeton.artisoft.com>: > > > Where did sup2.freebsd.org go? I have switched to sup5 but I am > > > receiving, not updating every file I have. This could take a while. > > > Anybody have a clue? > > > > I don't know -- my log has "no route to host". > > Am I the only person who read PST's announcement to freebsd-hubs that > sup2 was going to be down while it was relocated onto a new network? The users don't read freebsd-hubs. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:17:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10519 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10514 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA25350; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:15:49 -0700 (PDT) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: JULIAN Elischer , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fetch - time to kill ncftp? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:51:22 EDT." Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:15:48 -0700 Message-ID: <25348.835211748@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk And for all of this, ncftp2 remains in ports! :-) > On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, JULIAN Elischer wrote: > > > I dunno > > I kinda like it.. > > if id is nuked, then please make sure it goes into ports.. > > dos based users like the little bar-graph :) > > > > - little bar-graph is nice > - bookmark file of sites accessed (/hosts) is nice > - history of commands is nice > - including the fact that it remembers even after > you exit ncftp (similar to bash/tcsh) > > > Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net > Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org > From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:21:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10694 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10689; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA25339; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:15:21 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns), p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:40:21 PDT." <199606191840.LAA13530@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:15:21 -0700 Message-ID: <25337.835211721@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > There is no reason to bring in an interpreter that has as it's primary > benefit the ability to easily implement what is, effectively, "throw > away code". I believe "throw away code" should not be encouraged in > the source tree. Whoa, Tonto! I think you do John a vast disservice by characterizing TCL as some sort of disposable code generation facility. It's as much designed and capable of writing throw-away code as pretty much ANY reasonably high-level language out there, and if you've seen fit to write only disposable code with it (or seen this in frequent practice) then I can only council you or your TCL role-models to rethink their design principles as they are NOT using TCL to its fullest and most capable advantage. I've written plenty of code in TCL and C which was never designed to be disposable and is still in active use today. Just because some task becomes easier and faster to implement by no means implies that its lifetime is correspondingly shortened. When that does happen it's usually a fallacy induced by personal bias, not some hacking law of physics. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:25:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10854 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watson.grauel.com (watson.grauel.com [199.233.104.36]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10847 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparcmill.grauel.com (sparcmill.grauel.com [199.233.104.34]) by watson.grauel.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04212; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:33:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by sparcmill.grauel.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA26670; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:24:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:24:20 -0500 From: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns) Message-Id: <199606191924.OAA26670@sparcmill.grauel.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606191840.LAA13530@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606191521.KAA24028@sparcmill.grauel.com> <199606191840.LAA13530@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > > This is all really nasty, there's no compelling reason for tcl to be > > > brought into the main tree, > > > > tcl is on every system I administer; I use it extensively. Linked with the > > appropriate libraries, it can greatly speed the development of tools using > > those libraries. IMHO, bringing tcl into the main tree would encourage the > > growth and development of FreeBSD. > > I have to say that the issue is real, but I also do not agree with the > need for TCL. > > TCL uses a tool encapsulation model, requiring TCL changes to match > corresponding tool changes when they occur to the embedded tool. This > is grossly inefficient and unmodular. > Either I'm having trouble parsing this paragraph, or you're thinking about using tcl differently than I am. Assume a library that provides a low-level service -- libdisk.a, for example. For the tcl interface, I'd write some C code that defines a tcl object (maybe called a `Disk') that responds to some more-or-less generic set of messages ("format", "describe_boot_block", etc). A properly designed (buzz-word alert!) object-oriented interface would present a consistent view of the higher-level Disk tool to any tcl code, insulating the tcl code from changes to the lower-level libdisk tool. ... > I believe "throw away code" should not be encouraged in > the source tree. > I fully agree; just don't throw out the baby (easier/faster development) with the bathwater. -- Rich Kuhns rjk@grauel.com PO Box 6249 Tel: (317)477-6000 x319 100 Sawmill Road Lafayette, IN 47903 From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:29:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11052 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11047 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA16806; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:29:20 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:29:20 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606191929.AA16806@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606191719.KAA01800@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199606191656.KAA06240@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606191719.KAA01800@freefall.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > from what jordan wrote, it seems that bmak'ing these programs is > an arduous task that no one is eager to take on. at least some of > those that have been doing it are tiring of the process. That is certainly what is being suggested, but I must confess to not understanding it. Writing a Makefile for a large program or set of programs is a pain, yes. It is substantially less of a pain when using the Berkeley macros. In any case, it is something that only has to be done /once/. I think there is a bit of cognitive dissonance going on here. I think what PHK and others complain about is the effort required to take the vendor's tree and merge it into the FreeBSD arrangement. 99.9999% of this effort is completely unnecessary, and results from either an incorrect initial import of the code (e.g., gcc), or completely unnecessary and counterproductive local changes (e.g., trailing whitespace removal). In particular, there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED to move large numbers of files around; indeed, this is quite counterproductive, as we have seen. See the sources to mrouted(8) for the correct way to handle a distribution that does not come set up one-program-per-directory. In all the programs I maintain, including a particularly large one (xntpd), the actual effort involved in converting them to use the Berkeley macros is already sunk, and does not need to be repeated. The process of importing new revisions takes a few hours' worth of time, mostly involved in examining the merge conflicts for important local changes. It is by no means an arduous process as some people seem to be making it out to be. > using gmake for them would reduce the burden of porting these > programs. For most programs, it doesn't matter which `make' executable one uses. The difference is between using the Berkeley macro set and not using it, and the compromises this entails. > i dont understand how using gmake for GNU programs is more evil > than using gcc for all of FreeBSD. if the build tool "contaminates" > the resulting binary...all of FreeBSD is in that boat. Again, the executable for the `make' program is of little relevance. I venture to say that GNU `make' could be taught to use a BSD-style macro system in short order (although a significant amount of effort). The win we get from using Berkeley make macros is as follows: 1) All the standard targets do standard things. 2) The obj directory hack works, and works better than some of the `replacement' mechanisms that have been suggested. 3) The Makefiles are simple enough for a janitor to understand. 4) The configuration variables that we have set up work precisely as intended. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:32:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11240 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11235 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA25392; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:23:56 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: Mark Murray , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:43:27 MDT." <199606191843.MAA06814@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:23:56 -0700 Message-ID: <25390.835212236@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Because all of the 'Berkeley' targets don't work. > > 'make depend all install clean cleandir obj' etc.. are *useful* (nay > critical) for some installations. Another strawman argument, I'm afraid. Through encapsulation it would easily be possible to make ALL of these work, and with minimal perturberation to the package. You want NOPROFILE to be passed through when that's applicable? Fine. You want obj, clean and cleandir to work? Fine. I already did that for bsd.port.mk, in fact. You want your debugging flags passed in? No problem. I looked at providing *all* of these for the TCL port and, while I only implemented the ones I thought were critical (obj and cleandir), the rest were pretty trivial. For most, if not all, of the GNU ports I've looked at analogs exist for pretty much all of our standard bmake operations. As I said in my last mail, the obj link wart is our biggest hurdle and I'd just as soon see it die anyway (and that is NOT a new position on my part - I've been complaining about the stupid things for 2 years now). I'm also all for backing this out and getting on with our lives, but I just thought I'd defend what I thought was a little unfair criticism of the proposed mechanism's shortcomings. Whatever else its shortcomings, you can do a LOT of "homogenization" through the ports-style Makefile wrapper. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:36:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11493 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utgard.bga.com (utgard.bga.com [205.238.129.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11488; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from faulkner@localhost) by utgard.bga.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06017; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:36:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606191936.OAA06017@utgard.bga.com> Subject: Re: supservers To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG (Gary Palmer) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:36:36 -0459 (CDT) From: "Boyd R. Faulkner" Cc: terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3496.835210673@palmer.demon.co.uk> from "Gary Palmer" at Jun 19, 96 07:57:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Gary Palmer: > > > Terry Lambert wrote in message ID > <199606191815.LAA13420@phaeton.artisoft.com>: > > > Where did sup2.freebsd.org go? I have switched to sup5 but I am > > > receiving, not updating every file I have. This could take a while. > > > Anybody have a clue? > > > > I don't know -- my log has "no route to host". > > Am I the only person who read PST's announcement to freebsd-hubs that > sup2 was going to be down while it was relocated onto a new network? > I guess so. Did they give an estimate as to when it might be back up? Thanks, Boyd > Gary > -- > Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member > FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info > -- _____________________________________________________________________________ Boyd Faulkner "The fates lead him who will; faulkner@asgard.bga.com Him who won't, they drag." http://asgard.bga.com/~faulkner Old Roman Saying -- Source: Joseph Campbell _____________________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:40:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11689 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11684 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA19979; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:39:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:39:42 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606191939.AA19979@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: Mark Murray Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606191837.UAA00804@grumble.grondar.za> References: <199606191837.UAA00804@grumble.grondar.za> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > I say, why not _not_ bmake tcl, let it "all hang out" in its original > format, except untarred and with patches applied, and let its own > build do the work (modulo some makefile diffs (destdir etc)). diffs > can easily be generated with 'cvs diff'. Further versions {c|sh}ould > be imported on vendor branches. My cynical version: because that would only be about five inches from actually converting it to Berkeley macros, and PHK wants to avoid the necessity of doing this. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:45:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11875 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11869 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA13802; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:42:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191942.MAA13802@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: The FreeBSD Way To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:42:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606191856.MAA06876@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 19, 96 12:56:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Many of us have a long history, either as employees or as tier-one > > developers for major UNIX systems houses. The reason we are here > > is to Do The Right Thing The Right Way. > > Actually, the reason I'm here is because this is 'fun'. And, there is > prestige to be had for being a contributor. The latter is the reason we > do things the 'right way', because if you do crappy work the prestige is > lessened. However, sometimes 'the right way' gets in the way of 'fun', > due to time constraints and other issues, so the developers settle for > 'the best job given the current situation'. Yes; this is an issue of expediency. I'm *not* saying "don't be expedient"; what I *am* saying is "if you choose to be expedient, admit it". The difference is significant. I think we are already at the point where we can do the necessary expedient things without making more compromises in the name of "time to market" or "compete with Linux" or the other incentives for expediency which we already face. > If that means using TCL and having a workable solution next week > vs. spending 2 years writing a end-all/be-all/do-all front-end that is > the 100% correct solution then I'm for using TCL. I think you need to reexamine the premises. There's nothing saying that a front end could not be written as a TCL script, and use TCL. It has to do with the tools philosophy, and following a defined interface to allow us to agregate tools. This is *definitely* in line with the existing long term UNIX philosophy of being able to add general purpose things together with a special purpose thing and get a special purpose thing with astonishingly wide scope. I'm against the inclusion of TCL in the main line source tree for the same reason that I don't believe an "add user" script should be written in PERL: because it limits the reusuability of the code by blurring its boundries to the point that the algorithm is not fundamentally seperable from the interface implementation. To put this another way "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". I'm against importing hammers to avoid abrogating all of the small problems into nails of one sort or another. UNIX is a tools OS. You *can* take apart a motorcycle with a crescent wrench, but it's much less satisfying to twiddle the adjustment up and down than it is to have a good set of sockets that *exactly* fit the standard-sized bolts. There is never an issue of misadjustment, and you don't strip your bolts. > That doesn't mean 'crap' is allowed, but there are certain tradeoffs > that are acceptable, such as allowing GPL'd code into the tree when > there is nothing BSDish that fits the bill. But, it also means that we > didn't accept the SVR3 style shlib either because in the long-run it'd > make like *more* difficult for both the developers *and* users. I'm not trying to imply TCL (or PERL, or anything else) is "crap", only that it promotes expedient soloutions to problems that could be more beneficially solved using a method more in line with the base UNIX philosophy. They promote laziness, and laziness promotes the "crap". > Claiming that we only do the '100%' pure thing is simply leading people > astray. I don't claim that we do. I *do* realise that eventually a software project has to ship software, or it isn't a software project. This is probably the bone of contention at the heart of the "Stallman/Lignux" debates. On the other hand, per the example of SVR3 shared libraries, it is sometimes better to avoid expediency to incent quality. I think that the importation of tools like TCL incent expediency, even if they are, themselves, quality code -- a slightly less obvious version of the SVR3/BSD shared library debate. The difference between a tree where these things are "ports" vs. where they are "standard components" is the difference between tacit disapproval or approval of importation of dependent code into the tree, also as standard components. If you tacitly approve, then it *will* happen; it will start small, with the standard "adduser" requiring the standard PERL, and build from there. I would prefer to incent "tools-based", instead of "tools-using", soloutions, if at all possible. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:46:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11937 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11929; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA13819; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:43:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606191943.MAA13819@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: supservers To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG (Gary Palmer) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:43:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, faulkner@asgard.bga.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3496.835210673@palmer.demon.co.uk> from "Gary Palmer" at Jun 19, 96 07:57:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Where did sup2.freebsd.org go? I have switched to sup5 but I am > > > receiving, not updating every file I have. This could take a while. > > > Anybody have a clue? > > > > I don't know -- my log has "no route to host". > > Am I the only person who read PST's announcement to freebsd-hubs that > sup2 was going to be down while it was relocated onto a new network? Uh -- freebsd-hubs? I'm a hub? 8-) 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 12:51:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA12256 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plunger.gdeb.com (plunger.gdeb.com [153.11.11.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12230 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.gdeb.com (orion.caen.gdeb.com) by plunger.gdeb.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA199253326; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:42:06 -0400 Message-Id: <31C856E5.41C67EA6@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:37:09 -0400 From: "Daniel M. Eischen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b2 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE i386) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu, fenner@parc.xerox.com Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Fenner writes: > >RTM_ADD 0.0.0.0 --> 204.213.232.3 from pid 189 > > Was routed pid 189, or did this come from somewhere else (your ppp startup > script?) Is your ppp neighbor advertising default? > > Can you try running "route monitor" in parallel? I don't think that > routed is doing enough tracing. No it wasn't routed, but was probably from my PPP startup script in which I set the default route. I'm away from my machine at home, so I can't verify this until later tonight (EST). I'll try running "route monitor" as you suggest. Garret Wollman writes: > > Add interface ppp0 204.213.233.105 --> 204.213.232.3 metric=1 > > turn on RIP > > Add 204.213.232.3/32--> 204.213.233.105 metric=1 ppp0 21:45:28 > > Add 204.213.233.105/32--> 127.0.0.1 metric=1 ppp0 21:45:28 > > Send RIPv2 REQUEST to 204.213.232.3.520 via ppp0 > > sendto(ppp0, 204.213.232.3.520): Network is down > > Chg interface ppp0 204.213.233.105 --> 204.213.232.3 metric=1 > > Chg 204.213.232.3/32--> 204.213.233.105 metric=1 ppp0 > > 204.213.232.3/32--> metric=16 - hold-down=10 21:43:28 > > This part looks curious. Note here that it's trying to send a RIP > message to the other side of your PPP link and getting an ENETDOWN > error. I'm guessing that the following code is what's causing it: > > (from if_ppp.c) > if (sc->sc_devp == NULL || (ifp->if_flags & IFF_RUNNING) == 0 > || (ifp->if_flags & IFF_UP) == 0 && dst->sa_family != AF_UNSPEC) { > error = ENETDOWN; /* sort of */ > goto bad; > } > > What this seems to be saying is: `if there is no TTY attached, or if > the interface is not RUNNING, or if both the interface is not UP and > the attempted write is not for family AF_UNSPEC (meaning raw PPP)'. > My guess would be that there is some window in between the time that > the interface is configured as UP, and the time that it is configured > as RUNNING (perhaps there is some IPCP transaction that has to go on > here), and that `routed' is attempting to send on an interface that is > in such a state. > > Here is an experiment you might try... in > /usr/src/usr.sbin/routed/defs.h, look for the lines: > > #ifdef sgi > #define IFF_UP_RUNNING (IFF_RUNNING|IFF_UP) > #else > #define IFF_UP_RUNNING IFF_UP > #endif > > ...and change the `#ifdef sgi' to `#if 1' and see what happens. You > might have to fix up a few interfaces in the kernel (like the > loopback) so that they properly set IFF_RUNNING in order for this to > work. (I will do so in -current.) > > Also, if you are getting lots of IP_[ADD|DROP]_MEMBERSHIP warnings, > try defining MCAST_PPP_BUG. I don't think that this should be > necessary, but it can't hurt to try. I'll also try this later tonight. Dan Eischen deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 13:22:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14979 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14969 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <15912(12)>; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:21:38 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177476>; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:21:29 -0700 To: "Daniel M. Eischen" cc: wollman@lcs.mit.edu, fenner@parc.xerox.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 96 12:37:09 PDT." <31C856E5.41C67EA6@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:21:16 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Jun19.132129pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <31C856E5.41C67EA6@iworks.InterWorks.org> you write: >No it wasn't routed, but was probably from my PPP startup script in which I >set the default route. I'm away from my machine at home, so I can't verify >this until later tonight (EST). I'll try running "route monitor" as you >suggest. If it was "pppd" itself that added the default route, then perhaps the problem is that pppd doesn't seem to set RTF_STATIC on the route that it adds. Routed assumes that it is responsible for all routes not mentioned in /etc/gateways that don't have RTF_STATIC set. This means one of several things: 1 - "pppd" should set RTF_STATIC on the route that it installs. This seems a little odd, since RTF_STATIC means a route that was manually added. (However, I guess the fact that you put "do-the-default-route-thing" in your pppd.conf might mean that it's proxy-manually added =) 2 - you need to put something like "net default gateway metric 1 extern" in /etc/gateways. The "extern" keyword tells routed that this route is none of its business, and that someone else (in this case, pppd) will manage the route. 3 - you need to put something like "net default gateway metric 1 passive" in /etc/gateways, and configure pppd to not install a default route. Of these options, #1 will make for the most "plug-n-play", I think, but I'm not all that sure it's architecturally correct. Just out of curiosity, if pppd is installing a default route for you, then why do you need to run routed? Bill From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 13:37:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17581 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net ([194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17557 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA04987 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:36:55 +0300 (EET DST) From: Mr Operating System Message-Id: <199606192036.XAA04987@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: /usr/ports/secure/pidentd To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:36:55 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Latin-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk eh? shadows# pwd /usr/ports/security/pidentd shadows# make all >> pidentd-2.7a7.tar.gz doesn't seem to exist on this system. >> Attempting to fetch from ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/ident/servers/. /pub/ident/servers/pidentd-2.7a7.tar.gz: No such file. >> Attempting to fetch from ftp://ftp.fu-berlin.de/unix/security/ident/servers/. FTP.FU-Berlin.DE ready, please login as user "ftp". /unix/security/ident/servers/pidentd-2.7a7.tar.gz: No such file. >> Attempting to fetch from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/distfiles//. /pub/FreeBSD/distfiles//pidentd-2.7a7.tar.gz: No such file. >> Couldn't fetch it - please try to retreive this >> port manually into /usr/ports/distfiles/ and try again. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. shadows# *blink* where is it? (error's been around for a while, i have latest ports, sup runs daily) mickey From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 13:44:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA19009 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18761 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fcurrent@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id KAA12951; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:18:16 GMT Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:18:16 GMT Message-Id: <199606191018.KAA12951@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de CC: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199606190007.CAA01478@campa.panke.de> (message from Wolfram Schneider on Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:07:42 +0200) Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Indeed. Apart from volume of output, is there any particular reason > >why ktrace writes to a file which kdump reads in, as opposed to using > >a pipe? Particularly as the first thing kdump does is > >freopen(tracefile, "r", stdin)! > > Hm, try `ktrace -f /dev/stdout | kdump -f /dev/stdin' $ ktrace -f /dev/stdout -p 12922 | kdump -f /dev/stdin ktrace: /dev/stdout: Operation not supported by device. I did actually try this before I posted, although with /dev/fd/[01]. The problem is that ktrace doesn't actually write to the file itself, it passes the name of the file to a system call that does kernel writes to the vnode, and this only seems to work for regular files. -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 13:47:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA19554 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA19519 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id GAA00407 Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:45:56 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199606192045.GAA00407@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: laptop installations To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:45:54 +1000 (EST) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606191812.LAA13396@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Jun 19, 96 11:12:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Have you tried one of Nate or the Nomads' PCCARD capable boot disks? No .. just after I posted my message the drive in the AST went terminal .. given the urgency of my position, I could only obtain an IBM Thinkpad on short notice (i.e. today). Now I won't have the opportunity to follow this up in a development sense :-( michael From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 13:54:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA20729 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dtr.com ([205.139.102.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA20565 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from everest.dtr.com (everest.dtr.com [199.26.157.34]) by dtr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA11430; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:48:20 -0700 Received: (from bmk@localhost) by everest.dtr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA01095; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:45:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199606192045.NAA01095@everest.dtr.com> Subject: Re: fetch - time to kill ncftp? To: scrappy@ki.net (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Cc: julian@ref.tfs.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Marc G. Fournier" at Jun 19, 96 02:51:22 pm From: "Brant M. Katkansky" Reply-To: bmk@fta.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, JULIAN Elischer wrote: > > I dunno > > I kinda like it.. > > if id is nuked, then please make sure it goes into ports.. > > dos based users like the little bar-graph :) > > > - little bar-graph is nice > - bookmark file of sites accessed (/hosts) is nice > - history of commands is nice > - including the fact that it remembers even after > you exit ncftp (similar to bash/tcsh) I don't think anyone is arguing that ncftp is cool. However, if I'm not mistaken it was only in the case release to facilitate install-via-FTP. Since it's not needed for the install, it should be removed from the base release. IMHO, of course. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 13:55:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA21124 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA21098 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 13:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA07553; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:55:42 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:55:42 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606192055.OAA07553@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Announcement: Upgraded Flex and bootstrap instructions Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just upgraded lex/flex to it's most recent incarnation. However, this means that *if* you don't use a make world to upgrade your tree, you must 'bootstrap' the new flex into place since by default it relies on a version of flex at least as current as itself, and the previous version in FreeBSD is not recent enough. To do this, you must follow these simple steps: # cd /usr/src/usr.bin/lex # make bootstrap all install Viola! That's all there is to it. 'make world' already has this step in place, so the make world folks should be set. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 14:04:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA22518 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA22469 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id WAA22788; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:45:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00703; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:53:36 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:53:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: Chuck Robey cc: FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > Twice recently I have had ctm mailbomb me with big updates, and I guess > everyone else who uses ctm has had that happen too. Yes, I think we share the same lists, eh ?! ;-) > My mail capacity was > big engough to manage, but I'm just a little worried about the near > future. why... > If some care isn't taken, when the new gcc gets imported into > current, well, gcc is big enough to overflow probably everyone's mailbox, > no matter what size each individual ctm update is limited to. I don't think so. People, who really like to get the source repository are certainly so clever, to have sufficient space ... And, getting current means to get all the nice cool new stuff, you want it, you get it ... > I just hope that ctm is taken into account, when gcc is brought up to > 2.7.2, else there's gonna me one enormous mail snafu. hmmm, ok ... so people be warned ! ;-) > There's several > different ways to handle this, I don't care how it's finally decided, I > just don't want ctm trying to send me 25 megabytes of mail all in one day. Excuse me, I don't know exactly what you mean ... Ok, the worst thing might be, you get all at one, so you fear, your spool space might overflow ... So you mean, the commitments should be done in peaces ?!?! Is that doable ?! When a developer extracts his work on the main src server, what should he do .... cvs committ .... what else ?! The 'beast' works recursive .... Andreas /// -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 14:12:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23011 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iworks.InterWorks.org (deischen@iworks.interworks.org [128.255.18.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23005 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iworks.InterWorks.org (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA04424; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:08:13 -0500 Message-Id: <9606192108.AA04424@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:08:13 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Eischen" To: current@FreeBSD.org, fenner@parc.xerox.com Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly. Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If it was "pppd" itself that added the default route, then perhaps the > problem is that pppd doesn't seem to set RTF_STATIC on the route that > it adds. Routed assumes that it is responsible for all routes not > mentioned in /etc/gateways that don't have RTF_STATIC set. > > This means one of several things: > > 1 - "pppd" should set RTF_STATIC on the route that it installs. This > seems a little odd, since RTF_STATIC means a route that was manually > added. (However, I guess the fact that you put "do-the-default-route-thing" > in your pppd.conf might mean that it's proxy-manually added =) > > 2 - you need to put something like > "net default gateway metric 1 extern" in /etc/gateways. The > "extern" keyword tells routed that this route is none of its business, > and that someone else (in this case, pppd) will manage the route. Haven't got this. > 3 - you need to put something like > "net default gateway metric 1 passive" in /etc/gateways, and > configure pppd to not install a default route. Nor this. > Of these options, #1 will make for the most "plug-n-play", I think, but > I'm not all that sure it's architecturally correct. > > Just out of curiosity, if pppd is installing a default route for you, > then why do you need to run routed? I don't need to run routed, but FreeBSD installed that way (routed -q) and it's never caused me any problems before - so I left it in. I believe there was a big discussion about whether routed should be run by default or not many months ago. AFAIK, it still is run by default, so it [the new routed] could cause a lot of grief for the typical home installation connected via modem. I can try options 2 and 3 above - maybe later tonight. Dan Eischen deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 14:16:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23415 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23409 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA09860 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:16:29 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA07733; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:14:30 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:14:30 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606192114.PAA07733@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Nate Williams Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Announcement: Upgraded Flex and bootstrap instructions In-Reply-To: <199606192055.OAA07553@rocky.sri.MT.net> References: <199606192055.OAA07553@rocky.sri.MT.net> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Bootstrapping flex ] *Argh* I forgot about make's 'feature' of keeping everything in-core for every single invocation. > # cd /usr/src/usr.bin/lex > # make bootstrap all install ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Try this instead # make bootstrap # make all install Sorry! Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 14:18:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23583 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centauro.isr.uc.pt (centauro.isr.uc.pt [193.136.205.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23561 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by centauro.isr.uc.pt (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16388; Wed, 19 Jun 96 22:17:56 +0100 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:17:55 +0100 (WET DST) From: Paulo Menezes To: current@freebsd.org Subject: out of ptys? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In the LINT file it says that the maximum number of ptys is 64, but in the telnetd sources it is limited to 32. Why? Is there any problem in raising the telnetd limit to 64? Thanks Paulo From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 14:40:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA25341 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA25287; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA09922 ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:34:20 -0700 Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id WAA04849; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:32:58 +0100 (BST) To: "Boyd R. Faulkner" cc: pst@FreeBSD.ORG, terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: supservers In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:36:36 -0459." <199606191936.OAA06017@utgard.bga.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:32:57 +0100 Message-ID: <4847.835219977@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Boyd R. Faulkner" wrote in message ID <199606191936.OAA06017@utgard.bga.com>: > According to Gary Palmer: > > Am I the only person who read PST's announcement to freebsd-hubs that > > sup2 was going to be down while it was relocated onto a new network? > > > > I guess so. Did they give an estimate as to when it might be back up? Nope. Perhaps Paul can comment? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 14:51:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA26494 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA26473; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA14179; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:46:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606192146.OAA14179@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:46:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <25337.835211721@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 19, 96 12:15:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > There is no reason to bring in an interpreter that has as it's primary > > benefit the ability to easily implement what is, effectively, "throw > > away code". I believe "throw away code" should not be encouraged in > > the source tree. > > Whoa, Tonto! > > I think you do John a vast disservice by characterizing TCL as some > sort of disposable code generation facility. The problem is not that it is targetd, as such, but that it's possible to use it as such (and it is frequently used that way). > It's as much designed > and capable of writing throw-away code as pretty much ANY reasonably > high-level language out there, and if you've seen fit to write only > disposable code with it (or seen this in frequent practice) then I can > only council you or your TCL role-models to rethink their design > principles as they are NOT using TCL to its fullest and most capable > advantage. Actually, script interpreters which do command embedding (including /bin/sh) have a natural tendency towards throw-away code that compiled languages don't. I hate to harp on the same example, but "adduser" sticks in my craw. This is pretty much inhernet in the embedding rather than the procedural parts of the language. The same would be true of C, if it were possible to string things together internally using system(). The "popen" interface is relatively (compared to scripting) cumbersome, so there is less tendency to build Rube-Goldbergian "drop the marble" machines in C than there is in an interpreted language. > I've written plenty of code in TCL and C which was never > designed to be disposable and is still in active use today. Just > because some task becomes easier and faster to implement by no means > implies that its lifetime is correspondingly shortened. When that > does happen it's usually a fallacy induced by personal bias, not some > hacking law of physics. Right. My objection is against opportunity, not acts. It should not be easy to do bad things. TCL makes good things easier, though not substantially so (ie: they are nearly identically possible without TCL), but it also makes bad things substantially easier. I think any code that doesn't lend itself to reuse is, ipso facto, throw away code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 14:59:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA26926 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from magigimmix.xs4all.nl (magigimmix.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA26913 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asterix.xs4all.nl (asterix.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.11]) by magigimmix.xs4all.nl (8.7.5/XS4ALL) with ESMTP id XAA02671 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:59:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from plm.xs4all.nl (uucp@localhost) by asterix.xs4all.nl (8.7.5/8.7.2) with UUCP id XAA15249 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:53:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from plm@localhost) by plm.xs4all.nl (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA05752; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:15:10 +0200 (MET DST) To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. References: From: Peter Mutsaers Date: 19 Jun 1996 23:15:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com's message of Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:21:11 -0500 Message-ID: <87rarb7axu.fsf@plm.xs4all.nl> Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.22/Emacs 19.31 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> On Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:21:11 -0500, rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com >> (Richard J Kuhns) said: RJK> tcl is on every system I administer; I use it extensively. RJK> Linked with the appropriate libraries, it can greatly speed RJK> the development of tools using those libraries. IMHO, RJK> bringing tcl into the main tree would encourage the growth RJK> and development of FreeBSD. I also install tcl almost on all machines I use. But that doesn't mean that it should be in the main tree instead of in ports. The main tree should contain only the base OS? Ports is for all the nice optional extras. This way the main tree could grow completely out of bounds. Because the same can be said about Java (and also about python, scheme etc.). There are many tcl/perl like scripting languages. Java will probably become the most important. Should Java also be put in the main tree? I'd like more to see perl be removed from the main tree (since perl4 is outdated anyway, and perl5 is in ports). From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 15:19:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA29141 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA29134 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA14306; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:17:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606192217.PAA14306@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:17:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606191924.OAA26670@sparcmill.grauel.com> from "Richard J Kuhns" at Jun 19, 96 02:24:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > TCL uses a tool encapsulation model, requiring TCL changes to match > > corresponding tool changes when they occur to the embedded tool. This > > is grossly inefficient and unmodular. > > Either I'm having trouble parsing this paragraph, or you're thinking about > using tcl differently than I am. > > Assume a library that provides a low-level service -- libdisk.a, for > example. For the tcl interface, I'd write some C code that defines a tcl > object (maybe called a `Disk') that responds to some more-or-less generic > set of messages ("format", "describe_boot_block", etc). A properly > designed (buzz-word alert!) object-oriented interface would present a > consistent view of the higher-level Disk tool to any tcl code, insulating > the tcl code from changes to the lower-level libdisk tool. > > ... And then you build a script, which is throw away code, which encapsulates the order of operation for these objects and their preferred interactions in order to define a system interface. My problem is with the enabling act of building the script to be sufficient as providing the sole system interface for a given set of objects. The "adduser" example is a good case in point. Another would be the partition management and disklabel management (which if we design honestly, are instances of the same operation with gratuitiously different interfaces... an attempt to make it hard for the users? No: an expediency permitted [*encouraged*] by the software that controls their interactions.). > > I believe "throw away code" should not be encouraged in > > the source tree. > > I fully agree; just don't throw out the baby (easier/faster development) > with the bathwater. I agree with not throwing out the baby... which is why you put it in ports, so people can use it for rapid prototyping or site-specific administrative tasks, with no danger of those scripts creeping into the source tree. My problem with it being a system component is that it is acceptable to build other system components from it if it is guaranteed to exist. Look at the mess we have with the /etc/rc* files not being data driven; it's wrong to think that hacking an rc file to set system data can be an acceptable way of solving a configuration-change problem. The main obstacle to updating the system is the data is embedded in scripting in the /etc directory. The main obstacle to templating diskless/dataless systems from a single update template ("just reboot after the server is updated") is data embedded in scripting in the "/etc" directory imported by the client. The main obstacle to changing system policy templates for use in the creation of new users, given a TCL or PERL script-based "adduser", would be the policy data embedded in the TCL/PERL script. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 16:02:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA01473 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01456 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous224.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.224]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA29971; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:42:56 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA00578; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:31:41 +0200 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:31:41 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199606192231.AAA00578@campa.panke.de> To: Chuck Robey Cc: FreeBSD current Subject: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: References: Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I completely agree! The mailbombs cost me real money. If FreeBSD continued sending mailbombs I will unsubscribe ctm-cvs. Wolfram Chuck Robey writes: >Twice recently I have had ctm mailbomb me with big updates, and I guess >everyone else who uses ctm has had that happen too. My mail capacity was >big engough to manage, but I'm just a little worried about the near >future. If some care isn't taken, when the new gcc gets imported into >current, well, gcc is big enough to overflow probably everyone's mailbox, >no matter what size each individual ctm update is limited to. > >I just hope that ctm is taken into account, when gcc is brought up to >2.7.2, else there's gonna me one enormous mail snafu. There's several >different ways to handle this, I don't care how it's finally decided, I >just don't want ctm trying to send me 25 megabytes of mail all in one day. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 16:05:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA01616 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01605; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous224.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.224]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA29978; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:43:00 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA00502; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:00:23 +0200 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:00:23 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199606192200.AAA00502@campa.panke.de> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Mark Murray , Nate Williams , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <25290.835211175@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606191837.UAA00804@grumble.grondar.za> <25290.835211175@time.cdrom.com> Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: >There are problems with this too, unfortunately. The essential >problem is the obj dir, bane of our existance and utter hack into make >(did you know that bmake has inbuilt knowledge of the obj directory >and how to use it? Yuck! Talk about a policy layering violation). Jordan, we have bsd.obj.mk, obtained from NetBSD (with bugfixes of course). bsd.obj.mk know what bmake do with the obj directory. Unfortunately I had not the time to integrate bsd.obj.mk into bsd.prog.mk. Do you want break compatibility with NetBSD? Wolfram From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 16:48:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03032 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (ppp-5-50.rdcy01.pacbell.net [206.170.5.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA03027; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13588; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606192348.QAA13588@precipice.shockwave.com> To: "Gary Palmer" cc: "Boyd R. Faulkner" , terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: supservers In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:32:57 BST." <4847.835219977@palmer.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:48:40 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It was supposed to be monday night, but it looks like it may be tonight... Paul From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: supservers "Boyd R. Faulkner" wrote in message ID <199606191936.OAA06017@utgard.bga.com>: > According to Gary Palmer: > > Am I the only person who read PST's announcement to freebsd-hubs that > > sup2 was going to be down while it was relocated onto a new network? > > > > I guess so. Did they give an estimate as to when it might be back up? Nope. Perhaps Paul can comment? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 17:00:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA03401 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA03391 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.208]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA25255; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03100; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:00:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: Andreas Klemm cc: FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > > There's several > > different ways to handle this, I don't care how it's finally decided, I > > just don't want ctm trying to send me 25 megabytes of mail all in one day. > > Excuse me, I don't know exactly what you mean ... > Ok, the worst thing might be, you get all at one, so you fear, your > spool space might overflow ... So you mean, the commitments should > be done in peaces ?!?! Is that doable ?! When a developer extracts > his work on the main src server, what should he do .... > cvs committ .... what else ?! The 'beast' works recursive .... Andreas, EVERYONE who uses ctm gets all their updates by mail. I doubt if .05 percent of ctm users can take a one day 25MB mailbomb. I sure couldn't, the university doesn't give me that much room. To say 'deal with it' ignores the point that this simply cannot be dealt with without some planning. It doesn't have to be done in stages, either, I think that just saying 'tough nuts' is not being helpful. One possiblity that occurs to me is to ask PHK to interrupt ctm when the gcc is brought in, and just skip over that mailbomb. Everyone would then get maybe 7 days to ftp a diff, which would REALLY cut network traffic (ver getting the much larger ctm update), and everone would go back to ctm'ing happily, once they'd added the gcc-ctm updates manually. I'm sure there are other possibilities, too, that I haven't seen. Just letting ctm break everyone's system doesn't seem like a real neat solution. If it was done the way I suggest above, no one that doesn't use ctm would be inconvenienced, either. I'm not suggesting you use that method, I'm sure that there are even better ways that might occur to someone who knows the CVS tools better than I. I am saying, please consider the effect this is going to have. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 17:16:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA04308 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04286 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fcurrent@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA29745; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:56:43 GMT Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:56:43 GMT Message-Id: <199606192156.VAA29745@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu CC: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <9606191554.AA19234@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> (message from Garrett Wollman on Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:54:13 -0400) Subject: Re: ktrace [Was: 2.2-960612-SNAP resolver problems] Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> Garrett Wollman writes: > > < said: > > I don't follow. If the ktrace() system call took a file descriptor > > allocated by the ktrace program as its first argument, and used that > > to find the vnode to write the trace information to, how would that > > involve disturbing the file descriptor table of the process being > > debugged? (Except perhaps for pathological cases like trying to get a > > running ktrace process to debug itself). > > The original poster suggested sending it to standard output, which is > (generally speaking) not a useful place for binary trace data to go > because whatever is interpreting the real output of the program can't > deal with it. Hmm. That doesn't answer the question, which was why passing a file descriptor to the ktrace() system call could allegedly trash the debugged process's fd table. The original poster (that was me, BTW) actually wanted the data to be sent into a pipe, not ktrace's standard output! (which I agree is not a good idea). What I had in mind was something like using popen() to write into kdump's standard input, and pass the corresponding file descriptor to the ktrace() system call. (Or perhaps even get rid of kdump altogether and put its functionality into the ktrace program!) This would allow the user to get a "real-time" trace output, as is available on a number of other systems. Obviously that won't work as things stand, since ktrace() takes a pathname (which must apparently be that of a regular file) and I was curious as to why it was designed in such an apparently limited way. -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 17:25:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA04712 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linus.demon.co.uk (linus.demon.co.uk [158.152.10.220]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04686; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by linus.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA10492; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:23:12 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199606200023.BAA10492@linus.demon.co.uk> From: mark@linus.demon.co.uk (Mark Valentine) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:23:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: Paul Richards's message of Jun 19, 12:53pm X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: Paul Richards > Date: Wed 19 Jun, 1996 > Subject: tcl -- what's going on here. > Can ctm deal > with diffs to uuencoded files or am I going to get 2Mb mail messages every > time something changes in tcl? If you're lucky you'll get all 12 parts of the "delta". If the mail flood has upset an intermediate system enough you might get, say, 10 or 11 parts and have to ftp the whole delta again anyway from a non-mirrored area on a distant server... ;-( Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Valentine at Home From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 17:57:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA06694 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06683; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 17:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA04284; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:58:59 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606200128.KAA04284@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:58:58 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, phk@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606191653.JAA29372@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Jun 19, 96 09:53:40 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler stands accused of saying: > > bmake'ing tcl, gcc, groff, etc...every time a new version comes > out is a real pain. so is having a monster like this in the > cvs tree. So far so good. Personally I find the concept of going back to a vendor (whther it be Ousterhout or Stallman) and saying 'your product doesn't work under FreeBSD. Here are some patches, and oh by the way we totally mutilated your source to make it fit our particular pet build process so you'll have to pick the real changes from the chaff.' particularly ridiculous. If the current build scheme can't handle third-party build structures in some sensible fashion, then it is _BROKEN_ from the point of view of the useful continuation of the expansion of FreeBSD. Garret, Paul et al., this was discussed last time the import of gcc 2.7.2 was raised. I can only assume that you decided the issue was beneath yourselves and killed the thread. The conclusion that was reached last time was that a framework which maintained the original build structure would be highly desirable from the point of view of working more closely with vendors. Nate's comments about Flex are telling. His insistence that he hasn't upgraded it "because it wasn't necessary" aren't borne out by the continuing questions being asked along the lines of "the Flex in /usr/bin is version a.b.c which is really old and has lots of bugs and can't be used to compile XYZ, you need version i.j.k instead". I'm not accusing Nate of being lazy; I'm suggesting that upgrading Flex would be a lot easier if it weren't necessary to start by rewriting the makefile from scratch. > bmake'ing gmake and having gmake a prerequisite for these other > GNU components is ugly (two make programs: gmake and bmake) but > avoids both problems. I am totally opposed to having gmake in the tree. Note particularly that neither gcc nor tcl require it, and in fact I suspect that most of the basic FSF tools don't either. > i imagine that there are other cvs issues here that escape me > but what of incorporating gmake and using it in place of bmake > for GNU stuff. and not bringing in these monster tarballs. Huh? this makes no sense whatsoever. The issue is not about which make is used, it's about the structure of the Makefile(s) and source trees involved. > Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 18:07:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA07060 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07055; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA08453; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:07:10 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:07:10 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606200107.TAA08453@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Michael Smith Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler), jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, phk@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606200128.KAA04284@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199606191653.JAA29372@freefall.freebsd.org> <199606200128.KAA04284@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Nate's comments about Flex are telling. His insistence that he hasn't > upgraded it "because it wasn't necessary" aren't borne out by the > continuing questions being asked along the lines of "the Flex in /usr/bin > is version a.b.c which is really old and has lots of bugs and can't be > used to compile XYZ, you need version i.j.k instead". But those programs aren't parts of ports or part of our base system, it's importance/necessiry is minimal compared to 'fixing existing bugs' and 'extending the current system'. It's all a matter of priorities. If flex was a critical component it would have been upgraded months ago. > I'm not accusing Nate of being lazy; I'm suggesting that upgrading Flex > would be a lot easier if it weren't necessary to start by rewriting the > makefile from scratch. It took me 20 minutes to upgrade flex today. All of the work was done by Geoff Rehmet originally, so upgrading was a breeze. I suspect the next version will also be a breeze. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 18:30:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA07872 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA07867; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA03511; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:30:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler), jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:58:58 +0930." <199606200128.KAA04284@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:30:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3509.835234204@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >So far so good. Personally I find the concept of going back to a >vendor (whther it be Ousterhout or Stallman) and saying 'your product >doesn't work under FreeBSD. Here are some patches, and oh by the way we > [...] Exactly. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 18:33:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA07997 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07992; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA14683; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:29:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606200129.SAA14683@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:29:40 -0700 (MST) Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, phk@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606200128.KAA04284@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jun 20, 96 10:58:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If the current build scheme can't handle third-party build structures > in some sensible fashion, then it is _BROKEN_ from the point of view of > the useful continuation of the expansion of FreeBSD. My instinctual response to this is "YES!". My intellectual response to this is "Where things get installed is part of the build structure". My considered response is "everything that isn't applicable to building the code on FreeBSD is cruft resulting from failure to limit interfaces the code uses to those defined by standards like POSIX". > Garret, Paul et al., this was discussed last time the import of gcc 2.7.2 > was raised. I can only assume that you decided the issue was beneath > yourselves and killed the thread. > > The conclusion that was reached last time was that a framework which > maintained the original build structure would be highly desirable > from the point of view of working more closely with vendors. I don't remember this; was this not on -current or -hackers where this was discussed? I like the idea of vendor-branching, but, for instance, the ability to build cross environments or alternate processor architectures is not handled well by the GNU "Configure" crap, which wants to "localize" source to the target environment. This is simply something that the GNU folks "do badly". It's hard to agree to not replacing code that I believe is "done badly". > Nate's comments about Flex are telling. His insistence that he hasn't > upgraded it "because it wasn't necessary" aren't borne out by the > continuing questions being asked along the lines of "the Flex in /usr/bin > is version a.b.c which is really old and has lots of bugs and can't be > used to compile XYZ, you need version i.j.k instead". The real problem with upgrading Flex is the existing components and packages which depend on historical behaviour. Nate is right that it doesn't need to be upgraded, unless you happen to be working on something third-party. From the point of view of the source tree, the upgrade only needs to happen if someone is importing flex-using components into the source tree, or refreshing ports. This is precisely my reasoning for *not* supporting the importation of additional scripting languages into the main line distribution; /bin/sh has screwed us badly enough without needing to allow people to add to the problem out of ignorance (or even malice). > I'm not accusing Nate of being lazy; I'm suggesting that upgrading Flex > would be a lot easier if it weren't necessary to start by rewriting the > makefile from scratch. The Makefiles are the smallest part, IMO, of upgrading FLEX. Basically, you must rebuild everything -- all system components, and all ports and packages -- to be assured that you haven't screwed anyone. > > bmake'ing gmake and having gmake a prerequisite for these other > > GNU components is ugly (two make programs: gmake and bmake) but > > avoids both problems. > > I am totally opposed to having gmake in the tree. Note particularly > that neither gcc nor tcl require it, and in fact I suspect that most > of the basic FSF tools don't either. Agreed. The gmake is a GPL dependency that should be eliminated. But when packages need gmake, you are implicitly approving bmaking those particular packages. I don't think you can reconcile this position with that of not "bmake'ing" FLEX (or other packages). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 19:02:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA10036 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itesec.hsc.fr (root@itesec.hsc.fr [192.70.106.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA10030 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tetard.hsc.fr (tetard.hsc.fr [192.70.106.43]) by itesec.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/itesec-1.8) with ESMTP id EAA03630 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:02:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by tetard.hsc.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3/tetard-uucp-2.8) id EAA04191 for current@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:01:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Philippe Regnauld Message-Id: <199606200201.EAA04191@tetard.hsc.fr> Subject: Re: laptop installations To: current@freebsd.org (current) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:01:39 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <797.835110745@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 18, 96 08:12:25 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard écrit / writes: > > Laptops appear to be a significant installation nightmare .. unless you have > > a CDROM or a full set of floppies you end up using the serial port (and > > many, many hours). > > Or a parallel cable and not so many hours (and at 115.5Kb, it's not > THAT many hours for serial). Duh, I may be late on this (I just caught up 1200+ messages in -commit/-current/-hackers), but last time I tried parallel IP (PLIP) between a -current (early june) and a 2.1, the -current systematically paniced (when initiating any serious transfer, i.e. ftp). I sent in a PR and posted kernel traces in -current, and I haven't gotten any feedback since -- sorry if I missed some sublte commit that might have fixed the problem. -- Phil -- +-------------------+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Philippe Regnauld |_______Herve Schauer Consultants_______| regnauld@hsc.fr | +-------------------+FreeBSD - Turning PCs into Workstations+-----------------+ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 19:31:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11712 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.34.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA11704 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA01704 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:30:56 -0700 From: Josh MacDonald Message-Id: <199606200230.TAA01704@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:29:40 PDT." <199606200129.SAA14683@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:30:55 -0700 Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone thought seriously about how difficult it would be to write a tool that automatically bmakes a piece of software? I think the place to start would be tracking make dependencies to determine everything that goes into a binary. Has everyone seen the recently added GNU tool automake-1.0? Its pretty neat. If GNU utilities start using automake to generate their makefiles, then a similar utility, or even a modification of the same, could serve to easily bmake a GNU distribution. If GNU Makefiles start being distrubuted with Makefile.am's, the problem is solved, since the Makefile.am's contain precisely the information required to build a set of Makefiles. It would be a few perl scripts that plug into automake (or someone elses program) to modify a GNU distribution into a bmaked version of the same. The documentation distributed with automake makes it sound as if GNU Makefile maintainers have collaborated to design this utility so they can use it on the large packages. >From the sound of your discussion, it sounds like another tool would be required to unbmake a tree, just to restore the original pathnames so that diffs are easy to calculate, since CVS can't do this for us. I've spoken out on my dislike for the tendency to keep old versions of critical programs such as gcc around in the source tree, and while I like the bmake paradigm, I think its worth doing whatever it takes to make incorperating new versions of these utilities easy. -josh From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 19:58:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA13167 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iworks.InterWorks.org (deischen@iworks.interworks.org [128.255.18.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA13158 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iworks.InterWorks.org (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA05157; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:54:14 -0500 Message-Id: <9606200254.AA05157@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:54:14 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Eischen" To: current@FreeBSD.org, fenner@parc.xerox.com, wollman@lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly. Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Here is an experiment you might try... in > /usr/src/usr.sbin/routed/defs.h, look for the lines: > > #ifdef sgi > #define IFF_UP_RUNNING (IFF_RUNNING|IFF_UP) > #else > #define IFF_UP_RUNNING IFF_UP > #endif > > ...and change the `#ifdef sgi' to `#if 1' and see what happens. You > might have to fix up a few interfaces in the kernel (like the > loopback) so that they properly set IFF_RUNNING in order for this to > work. (I will do so in -current.) > > Also, if you are getting lots of IP_[ADD|DROP]_MEMBERSHIP warnings, > try defining MCAST_PPP_BUG. I don't think that this should be > necessary, but it can't hurt to try. I made both of these changes and rebuilt routed but it still fails in the same way. I didn't change anything else in the kernel, though. It looked like /usr/src/sys/net/if.h was the place to redefine IFF_RUNNING; it's defined to be 0x40. I wasn't sure if this was correct. Dan Eischen deischen@iworks.InterWOrks.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 20:16:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA13917 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.statsci.com ([198.145.127.110]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA13912; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from statsci.com by main.statsci.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0uWaD4-000606C; Wed, 19 Jun 96 20:15 PDT Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, phk@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. References: <199606200129.SAA14683@phaeton.artisoft.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:29:40 -0700." <199606200129.SAA14683@phaeton.artisoft.com> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:15:06 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > I like the idea of vendor-branching, but, for instance, the ability > to build cross environments or alternate processor architectures is > not handled well by the GNU "Configure" crap, which wants to "localize" > source to the target environment. But, you can specify a --srcdir option to separate the localizations from the master source. > This is simply something that the > GNU folks "do badly". It's hard to agree to not replacing code that > I believe is "done badly". Hmmm...how so? You mean just that it doesn't handle it out of the box so that the default is keep the localizations separate? It's easy enough to wrap what's provided in a heterogenous and/or source tree separated environment. Or am I misinterpreting your objections? [A little background: I've got things setup here so I have an amd controlled mountpoint called /sw so that my /usr/local is a symlink to /sw/local and platform specific files go under /sw/.mtype (which is amd redirected) - so /sw/local/bin is a symlink to /sw/.mtype/bin and so forth] So, I can generally build a GNU package on any platform like this: cd /homes/src/gnu/PACKAGE || exit 1 MTYPE=`MTYPE` # Determine machine type [ -d $MTYPE ] || mkdir $MTYPE cd $MTYPE && ../configure --prefix=/sw/local --exec-prefix=/sw/.mtype && gmake all install or to do them in parallel with a "rsh to groups of hosts" perl script: gsh2 build 'cd /homes/src/gnu/PACKAGE && mkdir `MTYPE`; cd `MTYPE` && ../configure --prefix=/sw/local --exec-prefix=/sw/.mtype && gmake all install' although I usually do the build first & check the gmake output before installing the software. Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 20:17:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA13999 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA13992; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA05052; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:17:46 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606200347.NAA05052@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:17:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, phk@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606200129.SAA14683@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Jun 19, 96 06:29:40 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > Garret, Paul et al., this was discussed last time the import of gcc 2.7.2 > > was raised. I can only assume that you decided the issue was beneath > > yourselves and killed the thread. > > > > The conclusion that was reached last time was that a framework which > > maintained the original build structure would be highly desirable > > from the point of view of working more closely with vendors. > > I don't remember this; was this not on -current or -hackers where this > was discussed? I'm fairly sure it was on one of the above; my reading list is probably a small subset of yours so I'm surprised you don't recall it. It's also not inconcievable that I'm hallucinating and that I was in fact participating in a conversation with a couple of fluffy blue cushions. > I like the idea of vendor-branching, but, for instance, the ability > to build cross environments or alternate processor architectures is > not handled well by the GNU "Configure" crap, which wants to "localize" > source to the target environment. This is simply something that the > GNU folks "do badly". It's hard to agree to not replacing code that > I believe is "done badly". It's lots easier to decide that you shouldn't have done it when the next version comes along and you have to merge their changes with yours. I'm entirely in favour of the current bmake functionality, and the integration that we currently have is an enormous and wonderful thing, and I quite understand the resistance to any thought of throwing it away. However; if a third-party supplied product is to be included with a minimum of fuss, _particularly_ an excessively hairy one like GCC, it would be _desirable_ to have a means of mapping its own build functionality to that required by the current FreeBSD structure. > The real problem with upgrading Flex is the existing components and > packages which depend on historical behaviour. Nate is right that Flex was a convenient example because I'd been fielding questions on it since before the beginning of the year. As Nate has observed, it wasn't necessarily a lot of work, so it was probably not as good an example as it could have been. > Terry Lambert -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 21:01:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA15511 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA15503; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA03648; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:01:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Josh MacDonald cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:30:55 PDT." <199606200230.TAA01704@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:01:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3646.835243281@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606200230.TAA01704@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU>, Josh MacDonald writes : > >Has anyone thought seriously about how difficult it would be to >write a tool that automatically bmakes a piece of software? I Been there, done that. src/gnu/gnu2bmake. Not fun. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 21:55:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA17175 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irbs.irbs.com ([199.182.75.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA17170 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 21:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jc@localhost) by irbs.irbs.com (8.7.5/8.6.6) id AAA26797 for freebsd-current@freefall.cdrom.com; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:54:48 -0400 (EDT) From: John Capo Message-Id: <199606200454.AAA26797@irbs.irbs.com> Subject: vm_bounce_alloc: Unmapped page To: freebsd-current@freefall.FreeBSD.org (freebsd-current) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:54:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I installed -current on a 486 with 32MB and an Adaptec 1542B yesterday. I ran it hard for 24 hours with kernel sources from June 7 and vm_machdep.c 1.63 with no problems. A kernel from up to date sources panics early in the boot. The core dump aborts at the 16Meg point with DMA past end of ISA message. Booting the previous kernel, savecore barfs with the same message and buffer already done messages. Current sources and vm_machdep.c 1.63 work fine. The new VM system sure feels snappy. :-) John Capo From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 22:43:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA19146 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA19140 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id HAA10892; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:30:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA00572; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:38:38 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:38:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: Chuck Robey cc: FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: > Andreas, EVERYONE who uses ctm gets all their updates by mail. I doubt > if .05 percent of ctm users can take a one day 25MB mailbomb. I sure > couldn't, the university doesn't give me that much room. Well isn't it your local FreeBSD box ... what does the university have to deal with it ... > To say 'deal > with it' ignores the point that this simply cannot be dealt with without > some planning. That should the user have done before ... it's perhaps not so clever, to have a too small spool area ... I have much mail and UUCP traffic, so I planned some reserves ... Even after I had problems with my 4GB hard drive (which turns at least out to be possibly a power supply problem), where a had to downsize everything (5GB) to 1 GB, I have reasonable space in the spool area: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd0a 19487 13364 4565 75% / mfs:16 63567 7 58475 0% /tmp /dev/sd0s2e 38991 4039 31833 11% /var ^^^^^ /dev/sd0s2f 78975 39650 33007 55% /data /dev/sd0s2g 567880 519418 3032 99% /usr My system is so small here on the 1 GB drive, that I even can't do a make world ... I only get CTM, because soon I'll have my 4 GB drive back, and I want to keep my source repository up to date. What I want to say, getting the cvs-cur mailinglist via CTM means,... I'm using my system for make worlds and checking out the sources and so on ... then I do need a lot os space ... It's always a bad idea to have a too small /var directory ... / you can make small, if a separate /var is present and if tmp files are mainly created in /var/tmp... /var/spool should be sufficient in space + some extra space ... And people getting cvs-cur via CTM should face the fact, that it's possible, to get a 'biggy' every now and then ... But generally it's of course nice from you to speak it out loud, that there might be a problem ... I only want to say, if you prepare your system correctly to get cvs-cur, then it should be no problem. Andreas /// -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 23:02:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA19961 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA19956 for ; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA04760; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:01:31 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199606200601.IAA04760@grumble.grondar.za> To: Wolfram Schneider cc: Chuck Robey , FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:01:30 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > I completely agree! The mailbombs cost me real money. If FreeBSD > continued sending mailbombs I will unsubscribe ctm-cvs. Do not worry. I cannot remember the exact numbers, but when a CTM delta larger than a certain size gets made, it is not mailed. Instead the owners are mailed with a request to get the file by other means. [I just looked at the example in -current - any delta bigger than 3Meg will not get mailed.] M > > Wolfram > > Chuck Robey writes: > >Twice recently I have had ctm mailbomb me with big updates, and I guess > >everyone else who uses ctm has had that happen too. My mail capacity was > >big engough to manage, but I'm just a little worried about the near > >future. If some care isn't taken, when the new gcc gets imported into > >current, well, gcc is big enough to overflow probably everyone's mailbox, > >no matter what size each individual ctm update is limited to. > > > >I just hope that ctm is taken into account, when gcc is brought up to > >2.7.2, else there's gonna me one enormous mail snafu. There's several > >different ways to handle this, I don't care how it's finally decided, I > >just don't want ctm trying to send me 25 megabytes of mail all in one day. -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-current Wed Jun 19 23:24:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA20967 for current-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA20962; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA03837; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:23:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Murray cc: Wolfram Schneider , Chuck Robey , FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:01:30 +0200." <199606200601.IAA04760@grumble.grondar.za> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:23:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3835.835251796@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606200601.IAA04760@grumble.grondar.za>, Mark Murray writes: >Wolfram Schneider wrote: >> >> I completely agree! The mailbombs cost me real money. If FreeBSD >> continued sending mailbombs I will unsubscribe ctm-cvs. > >Do not worry. I cannot remember the exact numbers, but when a CTM >delta larger than a certain size gets made, it is not mailed. Instead >the owners are mailed with a request to get the file by other means. Sorry, this is not the case for cvs-cur, only for the other CTM streams. This has historical reasons, that may no longer be valid. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 00:31:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA23913 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kanto.cc.jyu.fi (root@kanto.cc.jyu.fi [130.234.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA23907; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kallio@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kanto.cc.jyu.fi (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA11238; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:31:30 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:31:29 +0300 (EET DST) From: Seppo Kallio To: users@FreeBSD.org cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <4103.835183596@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there tools to write CD ROM using FreeBSD + some model of CD Writer hardware? Seppo kallio@jyu.fi U of Jyvaskyla Finland From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 00:56:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA24838 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA24833 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id AAA03443; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606200756.AAA03443@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: John Capo cc: freebsd-current@freefall.freebsd.org (freebsd-current) Subject: Re: vm_bounce_alloc: Unmapped page In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:54:47 EDT." <199606200454.AAA26797@irbs.irbs.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@root.com Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:56:21 -0700 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I installed -current on a 486 with 32MB and an Adaptec 1542B >yesterday. I ran it hard for 24 hours with kernel sources from June >7 and vm_machdep.c 1.63 with no problems. > >A kernel from up to date sources panics early in the boot. The >core dump aborts at the 16Meg point with DMA past end of ISA message. >Booting the previous kernel, savecore barfs with the same message >and buffer already done messages. > >Current sources and vm_machdep.c 1.63 work fine. The new VM system >sure feels snappy. :-) The new versions of vmapbuf/vunmapbuf didn't account properly for a buffer not starting on a page boundry, resulting in not enough pages being mapped. The attached patch should fix this. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project Index: vm_machdep.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/i386/vm_machdep.c,v retrieving revision 1.65 diff -c -r1.65 vm_machdep.c *** vm_machdep.c 1996/06/20 01:47:21 1.65 --- vm_machdep.c 1996/06/20 07:55:22 *************** *** 691,697 **** if ((bp->b_flags & B_PHYS) == 0) panic("vmapbuf"); ! for (v = bp->b_saveaddr, addr = bp->b_data; addr < bp->b_data + bp->b_bufsize; addr += PAGE_SIZE, v += PAGE_SIZE) { /* --- 691,697 ---- if ((bp->b_flags & B_PHYS) == 0) panic("vmapbuf"); ! for (v = bp->b_saveaddr, addr = trunc_page(bp->b_data); addr < bp->b_data + bp->b_bufsize; addr += PAGE_SIZE, v += PAGE_SIZE) { /* *************** *** 726,732 **** if ((bp->b_flags & B_PHYS) == 0) panic("vunmapbuf"); ! for (addr = bp->b_data; addr < bp->b_data + bp->b_bufsize; addr += PAGE_SIZE) { pa = trunc_page(pmap_kextract((vm_offset_t) addr)); pmap_kremove((vm_offset_t) addr); --- 726,732 ---- if ((bp->b_flags & B_PHYS) == 0) panic("vunmapbuf"); ! for (addr = trunc_page(bp->b_data); addr < bp->b_data + bp->b_bufsize; addr += PAGE_SIZE) { pa = trunc_page(pmap_kextract((vm_offset_t) addr)); pmap_kremove((vm_offset_t) addr); From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 01:23:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA25915 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA25910; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA10415; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:21:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Wolfram Schneider cc: Mark Murray , Nate Williams , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:00:23 +0200." <199606192200.AAA00502@campa.panke.de> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:21:15 -0700 Message-ID: <10413.835258875@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > we have bsd.obj.mk, obtained from NetBSD (with bugfixes of course). > bsd.obj.mk know what bmake do with the obj directory. > Unfortunately I had not the time to integrate bsd.obj.mk into > bsd.prog.mk. > > Do you want break compatibility with NetBSD? In the .mk file sense? It wouldn't bother me too much if it advanced the cause of src/obj separation in shared source trees. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 02:40:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA01089 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA01075; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA15917; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:40:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Seppo Kallio cc: users@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:31:29 +0300." Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:40:33 -0700 Message-ID: <15915.835263633@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is there tools to write CD ROM using FreeBSD + some model of CD Writer > hardware? Yep! If you're running -current you can use Joerg's worm device, just add an entry like so in your kernel config: device worm0 at scbus? # SCSI worm Then `cd /dev && sh MAKEDEV worm0' Then use wormcontrol(8) to talk to the drive. I use the following handy little bourne-shell functions to do my CD work: # usage: makecdfs cd-title input-tree output-file function makecdfs { if [ $# -lt 3 ]; then echo "usage: makecdfs cd-title input-tree output-file" elif [ ! -d $2 ]; then echo "makecdfs: $2 is not a directory." else mkisofs -a -d -N -D -R -T -V "$1" -P "Walnut Creek CDROM 1-510-674-0783 FAX 1-510-674-0821" -o $3 $2 fi } # usage: burncd input-file function burncd { if [ $# -lt 1 ]; then echo "usage: burncd input-file" elif [ ! -f $1 ]; then echo "burncd: $1 is not a valid file." elif [ "`id -u`" != "0" ]; then echo "Sorry, this must be done as root." else echo -n "Please CD in the writer now and press return: " read junk wormcontrol select HP 4020i wormcontrol prepdisk double wormcontrol track data rtprio 5 team -v 1m 5 < $1 | dd of=/dev/rworm0 obs=20k wormcontrol fixate 1 fi } From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 03:00:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA01842 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (pp@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA01834 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au id <23762-0@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:59:54 +1000 Received: from orion.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id SAA23060 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:42:44 +1000 Received: by orion.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-0.3) id SAA29295; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:43:26 +1000 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:43:26 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Message-Id: <199606200843.SAA29295@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org cc: syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Murray wrote: >Wolfram Schneider wrote: >> >> I completely agree! The mailbombs cost me real money. If FreeBSD >> continued sending mailbombs I will unsubscribe ctm-cvs. > >Do not worry. I cannot remember the exact numbers, but when a CTM >delta larger than a certain size gets made, it is not mailed. Instead >the owners are mailed with a request to get the file by other means. Yes. This size is configurable by the sender using a flag to ctm_smail. Missing out on a delta will not cause any source tree corruption. Deltas will wait around until you get the missing one somehow (ftp, floppy disk, etc). >[I just looked at the example in -current - any delta bigger than >3Meg will not get mailed.] Remember that the 3Mb file gets converted to 4Mb of mail. This may be more mail in one batch than modem users want. If I got ctm-src at home instead of at work, I'd be bitching about even the 880Kb files we got recently. Perhaps the folks with really slow modems can convince Poul to split them off into a sub-group that has a smaller upper file size limit. Want to conduct a ctm user survey, Poul? Stephen. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 03:44:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA03931 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (render.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.118]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA03925; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dfr@localhost) by minnow.render.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA13291; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:40:46 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:40:44 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Michael Smith , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <3509.835234204@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >So far so good. Personally I find the concept of going back to a > >vendor (whther it be Ousterhout or Stallman) and saying 'your product > >doesn't work under FreeBSD. Here are some patches, and oh by the way we > > [...] > > Exactly. Even this can be trivially solved for a traditional bmaked port. Just import the vendor sources in a directory structure like this: tcl Makefile locally written bmakefile tcl_subdir1 Makefile locally written bmakefile tcl_subdir2 Makefile locally written bmakefile vendor complete tcl sources on vendor branch. This way any FreeBSD changes to the actual tcl source files happen in tcl/vendor/.../foo.c and diffs are trivially generated. Makefiles in the vendor branch are completely ignored by our build process but are kept around to make new imports easier. The local build religion stuff which the tcl maintainers are not interested is kept completely separate. Each bmakefile has a VPATH which allows it to find the sources from the vendor branch. -- Doug Rabson, Microsoft RenderMorphics Ltd. Mail: dfr@render.com Phone: +44 171 251 4411 FAX: +44 171 251 0939 From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 04:54:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA07963 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kanto.cc.jyu.fi (root@kanto.cc.jyu.fi [130.234.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07952; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kallio@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kanto.cc.jyu.fi (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id OAA00928; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:54:10 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:54:09 +0300 (EET DST) From: Seppo Kallio To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: users@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <15915.835263633@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Is there tools to write CD ROM using FreeBSD + some model of CD Writer > > hardware? > > Yep! If you're running -current you can use Joerg's worm device, > just add an entry like so in your kernel config: > >... > device worm0 at scbus? # SCSI worm >... > rtprio 5 team -v 1m 5 < $1 | dd of=/dev/rworm0 obs=20k Great! But what is $1! In man wormcontrol it is cdrom.image . So I need some tool to make this image? Assuming I want to do a CD ROM for MS DOS, the image must contain some standard CD ROM file system DOS understands? (as you see I am not very familiar with CD ROM file systems, any pointers? in WWW?) Seppo From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 05:45:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA09896 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumter.awod.com (awod.com [198.81.225.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA09891 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ken (tsunami.awod.com [198.81.225.31]) by sumter.awod.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA24289; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:44:34 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960620124509.00932760@awod.com> X-Sender: klam@awod.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:45:09 -0400 To: Seppo Kallio From: Ken Lam Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? Cc: current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 02:54 PM 6/20/96 +0300, you wrote: > >On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> > Is there tools to write CD ROM using FreeBSD + some model of CD Writer >> > hardware? >> >> Yep! If you're running -current you can use Joerg's worm device, >> just add an entry like so in your kernel config: >But what is $1! In man wormcontrol it is cdrom.image . So I need some tool >to make this image? Assuming I want to do a CD ROM for MS DOS, the image >must contain some standard CD ROM file system DOS understands? (as you see >I am not very familiar with CD ROM file systems, any pointers? in WWW?) that is what Jordan's first script did. I am assuming that the cd-fs written is ISO9660 so that MSDOS could read it with no difficulties. I assume that Jordan personally burns all the SNAP cdroms this way ;) After all, I just checked a SNAP under a MS machine and a Macintosh and both machines could read it. -ken From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 06:00:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA10349 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA10344 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ginger.eng.umd.edu (ginger.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.204]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01493; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by ginger.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03100; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:00:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@ginger.eng.umd.edu To: Andreas Klemm cc: FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: > On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > > Andreas, EVERYONE who uses ctm gets all their updates by mail. I doubt > > if .05 percent of ctm users can take a one day 25MB mailbomb. I sure > > couldn't, the university doesn't give me that much room. > > Well isn't it your local FreeBSD box ... what does the university have > to deal with it ... Andreas, I can see why you don't understand yet. Most of the users of ctm are doing so because they don't have direct connections to the net. Just like me, they have dial up connections, and have to rely on someone else's host for connections, and someone else's rules concerning disk usage. I can give a Gig of space, but my University account has a 7.5 MB limit on it. I think that some folks will have higher limits, some lower, but the key point is that the amount of space is not under their control. No amount of planning is going to allow for a 25 megabyte mail dump. That's why I suggested specifically killing the mailing of the gcc, and allowing folks to separately ftp the ctm update of that one. No one would lose synch with ctm, and everyone would just be responsible to do their ftp aas soon as they can, to bring their systems current. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 06:05:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA10901 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from distortion.eng.umd.edu (distortion.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA10885 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ginger.eng.umd.edu (ginger.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.204]) by distortion.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA05194; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by ginger.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03104; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:01:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@ginger.eng.umd.edu To: Mark Murray cc: Wolfram Schneider , FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: <199606200601.IAA04760@grumble.grondar.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Mark Murray wrote: > Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > > > I completely agree! The mailbombs cost me real money. If FreeBSD > > continued sending mailbombs I will unsubscribe ctm-cvs. > > Do not worry. I cannot remember the exact numbers, but when a CTM > delta larger than a certain size gets made, it is not mailed. Instead > the owners are mailed with a request to get the file by other means. > > [I just looked at the example in -current - any delta bigger than > 3Meg will not get mailed.] If that's true, Mark, it's fine, but I've been ctm'ing the last year, and I don't recall a single example of it, so I'm surprised. I WOULD recall such a thing, and I hope it's true. > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 06:55:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA13624 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA13619 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 06:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA09538; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:55:08 -0600 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:55:08 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606201355.HAA09538@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Chuck Robey Cc: Andreas Klemm , FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Big CTM patches ] > Andreas, I can see why you don't understand yet. Most of the users of > ctm are doing so because they don't have direct connections to the net. I have a hard time believing that 'most' of the users dont' have direct connections. Some do, some have slow connections to the net. And some with slow connections still don't use CTM. :) > usage. I can give a Gig of space, but my University account has a 7.5 MB > limit on it. I think that some folks will have higher limits, some > lower, but the key point is that the amount of space is not under their > control. No amount of planning is going to allow for a 25 megabyte mail > dump. > > That's why I suggested specifically killing the mailing of the gcc, and > allowing folks to separately ftp the ctm update of that one. What would you have the developers do. 1) Fix bugs, add code, make things better 2) Do administration work, and let the remote developers worry about such issues (since they are capable of making sure this doesn't happen). You *are* a remote developer if you're getting the CTM stuff. And, if you can't handle the mail load of the gcc integration, un-subscribe from CTM until it all blows over, ftp everything by hand, and when everything is back to normal re-subscribe. Everything is in your hands and Poul didn't have to do anything, and those users who *can* handle the larger email aren't punished either. Viola, problem solved. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 07:09:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA14279 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA14274; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA26460; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:09:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Seppo Kallio cc: users@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:54:09 +0300." Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:09:02 -0700 Message-ID: <26457.835279742@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Great! > > But what is $1! In man wormcontrol it is cdrom.image . So I need some tool > to make this image? Assuming I want to do a CD ROM for MS DOS, the image Uh, see the function right above it for mkcdfs. $1 is an argument to the shell function - see the usage comment above. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 07:31:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA15992 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA15986 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA26366; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:31:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:31:22 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606201431.AA26366@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: Josh MacDonald Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606200230.TAA01704@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> References: <199606200129.SAA14683@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199606200230.TAA01704@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > From the sound of your discussion, it sounds like another tool > would be required to unbmake a tree, just to restore the original > pathnames so that diffs are easy to calculate, since CVS can't do > this for us. There is absolutely NO NEED to move files around! I don't know why people continue to persist in talking as if it were. NO NEED. Therefore, there is no need for a tool to un-move files, either. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 07:33:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16113 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA16108 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA26601; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:32:38 -0400 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:32:38 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606201432.AA26601@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Daniel M. Eischen" Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, fenner@parc.xerox.com, wollman@lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly. In-Reply-To: <9606200254.AA05157@iworks.InterWorks.org> References: <9606200254.AA05157@iworks.InterWorks.org> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: >> Here is an experiment you might try... in >> /usr/src/usr.sbin/routed/defs.h, look for the lines: >> >> #ifdef sgi >> #define IFF_UP_RUNNING (IFF_RUNNING|IFF_UP) >> #else >> #define IFF_UP_RUNNING IFF_UP >> #endif >> > I made both of these changes and rebuilt routed but it still fails in > the same way. I didn't change anything else in the kernel, though. > It looked like /usr/src/sys/net/if.h was the place to redefine IFF_RUNNING; > it's defined to be 0x40. I wasn't sure if this was correct. No, there's no reason to redefine IFF_RUNNING at all. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 08:07:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18239 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18231 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA26764; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:07:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:07:24 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606201507.AA26764@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: Michael Smith Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606200128.KAA04284@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199606191653.JAA29372@freefall.freebsd.org> <199606200128.KAA04284@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > If the current build scheme can't handle third-party build structures > in some sensible fashion, then it is _BROKEN_ from the point of view of > the useful continuation of the expansion of FreeBSD. I agree with your statement as a whole, but the premise is false. The current build scheme CAN handle third-party structures in a sensible fashion (by ignoring them and working in a separate directory). -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 08:53:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20988 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iworks.InterWorks.org (deischen@iworks.interworks.org [128.255.18.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20983 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iworks.InterWorks.org (1.37.109.8/16.2) id AA06118; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:49:30 -0500 Message-Id: <9606201549.AA06118@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:49:30 -0500 From: "Daniel M. Eischen" To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: As of 960608, routed now complains bitterly. Cc: current@FreeBSD.org, fenner@parc.xerox.com Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > No, there's no reason to redefine IFF_RUNNING at all. Doh! I grep'd for the wrong thing - should be IFF_UP_RUNNING. Dan Eischen deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 10:11:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25120 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.statsci.com ([198.145.127.110]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25111 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from statsci.com by main.statsci.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0uWnFl-000602C; Thu, 20 Jun 96 10:10 PDT Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: Stephen McKay cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm References: <199606200843.SAA29295@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:43:26 +1000." <199606200843.SAA29295@orion.devetir.qld.gov.au> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:10:44 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephen McKay wrote: > Perhaps the folks with really slow modems can convince Poul to split them > off into a sub-group that has a smaller upper file size limit. Want to > conduct a ctm user survey, Poul? Or have a way for a ctm user to specify the size as some sort of subscriber specific parameter? [spoken by someone who has never used or read the docs for ctm...] Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 10:30:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26553 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26524 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id TAA09194; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:15:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00438; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:12:15 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:12:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: Nate Williams cc: Chuck Robey , FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: <199606201355.HAA09538@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > You *are* a remote developer if you're getting the CTM stuff. And, if > you can't handle the mail load of the gcc integration, un-subscribe from > CTM until it all blows over, ftp everything by hand, and when everything > is back to normal re-subscribe. That's a good way I think. Don't force the people, who have sufficiant resources to have manual extra work. If someone, and I think, too, it's the minority, has insufficiant resources, then he should do as described above ! > Everything is in your hands and Poul didn't have to do anything, and > those users who *can* handle the larger email aren't punished either. Yes yes yes ! -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 11:08:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28185 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA28092 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fcurrent@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id NAA01685; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:21:16 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:21:16 GMT Message-Id: <199606201321.NAA01685@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Sync failure at shutdown Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On the last two occasions I've halted the system, I've got a message from sync when it tries to write out the pages that looks like 17 12 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 giving up and the root partition is dirty (obviously) when I reboot. This is with a kernel compiled just after the following VM commit:- 1.70 +1 -0 src/sys/conf/files 1.10 +3 -2 src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs.h 1.7 +5 -1 src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_subr.c 1.22 +3 -1 src/sys/miscfs/procfs/procfs_vnops.c (although I don't think this particular one is responsible). -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 12:03:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01631 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haywire.DIALix.COM (root@haywire.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01622 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news@localhost) by haywire.DIALix.COM (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA19414 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:03:01 +0800 (WST) X-Authentication-Warning: haywire.DIALix.COM: news set sender to usenet-request@haywire.dialix.com using -f Received: from GATEWAY by haywire.DIALix.COM with netnews for freebsd-current@freebsd.org (problems to: usenet@haywire.dialix.com) To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: 20 Jun 1996 19:03:00 GMT From: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Message-ID: <4qc794$gvg$1@haywire.DIALix.COM> Organization: DIALix Services, Perth, Australia. References: Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article , chuckr@Glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) writes: > On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: > >> On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Chuck Robey wrote: >> > On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: >> >> > Andreas, EVERYONE who uses ctm gets all their updates by mail. I doubt >> > if .05 percent of ctm users can take a one day 25MB mailbomb. I sure >> > couldn't, the university doesn't give me that much room. >> >> Well isn't it your local FreeBSD box ... what does the university have >> to deal with it ... > > Andreas, I can see why you don't understand yet. Most of the users of > ctm are doing so because they don't have direct connections to the net. > Just like me, they have dial up connections, and have to rely on someone > else's host for connections, and someone else's rules concerning disk > usage. I can give a Gig of space, but my University account has a 7.5 MB > limit on it. I think that some folks will have higher limits, some > lower, but the key point is that the amount of space is not under their > control. No amount of planning is going to allow for a 25 megabyte mail > dump. > > That's why I suggested specifically killing the mailing of the gcc, and > allowing folks to separately ftp the ctm update of that one. No one > would lose synch with ctm, and everyone would just be responsible to do > their ftp aas soon as they can, to bring their systems current. A couple of quick notes... The way I read the mkCTM script as run on, it's set ctm_smail's "maximum delta size" of 3MB, meaning that if the delta is larger than 3MB it wont be sent. However, this is before encoding and since it's a 3:4 expansion, the maximum chunk of mail could be 4MB. Is this too large? Remember, we have some complete tree taggings coming up real soon with the 2.1.5 release, so there's some large deltas in the pipeline. And the gcc delta wont be 25MB at all if I have my way. The basic 'cvs import' will actually cause a 1.4MB expansion in the repository, and since ctm gzips the delta, that comes down to 370K. The base64 encoding expands it to about 500K. However, I'm not 100% sure about how the internal encoding of the rcs files is going to handle the import (which will be nearly 100% conflict because the vendor branch was broken before, but this would re-sync it) followed by the merge. There are very few rev 1.1.1 files left, so by the time it's all over, there may be a doubling of the delta size to nearly 740K (or 1MB encoded). -Peter From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 12:18:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02376 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [144.206.136.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02370 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA14676 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:58:51 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Thu, 20 Jun 96 21:58:51 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by astral.msk.su (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01331; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:52:31 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199606201852.WAA01331@astral.msk.su> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:52:31 +0400 (MSD) Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9606191929.AA16806@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at "Jun 19, 96 03:29:20 pm" From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (aka Andrey A. Chernov, Black Mage) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > < said: > > > from what jordan wrote, it seems that bmak'ing these programs is > > an arduous task that no one is eager to take on. at least some of > > those that have been doing it are tiring of the process. > > That is certainly what is being suggested, but I must confess to not > understanding it. Writing a Makefile for a large program or set of > programs is a pain, yes. It is substantially less of a pain when > using the Berkeley macros. In any case, it is something that only has > to be done /once/. My opinion: I prefer bmaked variant, of course. If not bmaked, lets stay in GNU Configure strategy and modify *.mk to accomodate it. BUT... UUENCODED TARBALL IN THE SOURCES is definitely a big pain for my modem and must be removed! Lets sources be sources really. First of all, I doubt I can eat 2Mb as one big piece. Moreover, I expect the same big pain in future versions upgrades, each delta will be 2Mb again. Since I don't use TCL, it looks for me like 2Mb of junk EACH TIME! I accept any strategy, but please, untar this tarball. -- Andrey A. Chernov : And I rest so composedly, /Now, in my bed, ache@astral.msk.su : That any beholder /Might fancy me dead - http://dt.demos.su/~ache : Might start at beholding me, /Thinking me dead. RELCOM Team,FreeBSD Team : E.A.Poe From "For Annie" 1849 From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 12:23:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02789 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02784 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thurston.eng.umd.edu (thurston.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.206]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08012; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by thurston.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA03672; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:23:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@thurston.eng.umd.edu To: Nate Williams cc: Andreas Klemm , FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: <199606201355.HAA09538@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > That's why I suggested specifically killing the mailing of the gcc, and > > allowing folks to separately ftp the ctm update of that one. > > What would you have the developers do. > > 1) Fix bugs, add code, make things better > 2) Do administration work, and let the remote developers worry about > such issues (since they are capable of making sure this doesn't > happen). No, it's much simpler than that, Nate. This is the first time I've seen that a ctm update threatens to be this large. Chances are, it will continue to be rare. I don't worry about anything smaller than about 5 megs, and that seems to cover most contingencies. I don't want to hamstring developers either. I am asking for a one time, extraordinary, suspension of one ctm mailing, the big one that handles the new gcc. No other ones, no affect on any developers, no effect on any suppers, and the only effect on ctm users is that they have to get ONE update via ftp. Doesn't sound like too big a request to me. I could do the unsubscribe bit, if there will be at least 12 hours warning of the update. I don't think that's a good idea, altho I'll do it, because I don't think that mailing out huge numbers of copies of a 25 MB mailbomb is a good idea in general. Point it, this is a one time thing, I think it justifies a one time response that won't put anyone out. > You *are* a remote developer if you're getting the CTM stuff. And, if > you can't handle the mail load of the gcc integration, un-subscribe from > CTM until it all blows over, ftp everything by hand, and when everything > is back to normal re-subscribe. > > Everything is in your hands and Poul didn't have to do anything, and > those users who *can* handle the larger email aren't punished either. > > Viola, problem solved. > > > Nate > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 12:33:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03268 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03263 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA10856; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:32:51 -0600 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:32:51 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606201932.NAA10856@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Chuck Robey Cc: Nate Williams , FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: References: <199606201355.HAA09538@rocky.sri.MT.net> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > That's why I suggested specifically killing the mailing of the gcc, and > > > allowing folks to separately ftp the ctm update of that one. > > > > What would you have the developers do. > > > > 1) Fix bugs, add code, make things better > > 2) Do administration work.. > > No, it's much simpler than that, Nate. This is the first time I've seen > that a ctm update threatens to be this large. Chances are, it will > continue to be rare. I don't worry about anything smaller than about 5 > megs, and that seems to cover most contingencies. But you don't know if it will. > I don't want to hamstring developers either. I am asking for a one time, > extraordinary, suspension of one ctm mailing, the big one that handles > the new gcc. No other ones, no affect on any developers, no effect on > any suppers, and the only effect on ctm users is that they have to get > ONE update via ftp. A developer has to kill CTM and re-start it, developers are getting CTM via email no longer and have to ftp by hand, and developers have to go determine if the gcc CTM update will be too big. > Doesn't sound like too big a request to me. Neither does having you unsubscribe from the list until it blows over. > I could do the unsubscribe bit, if there will be at least 12 hours > warning of the update. Why do you need 12 hours in advance? Peter's said it will happen 'Real Soon Now' a couple days ago, so it'll happen pretty quick now. What's a little more work that you have to do to hand-integrate some smaller CTM patches vs. making everyone else have to do extra work? > I don't think that's a good idea, altho I'll do it, because I don't > think that mailing out huge numbers of copies of a 25 MB mailbomb is a > good idea in general. Point it, this is a one time thing, I think it > justifies a one time response that won't put anyone out. Why is this a one-time thing, and where did 25MB come in? If it happens once time, it can happen again, the next time someone upgrades gcc/groff, or one of the big packages. I really feel that you are in the minority here, and you're making the majority of the folks suffer because of your limits. And, even if you are in the majority the warning was given, so un-subscribe from the automatic mailing and *everything* will be exactly the same *except* that it won't require any hand-on changees from the 'administration'. And, those folks who have the resources to handle a 25MB/5MB/1MB file won't be punished for it. All of the tools to solve the problem ae in your hands already, so there's no need to interfere except to make your life easier and someone else's life more difficult. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 13:20:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05187 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA05178; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA04522; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:19:44 -0700 (PDT) To: scott@statsci.com cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:10:44 PDT." Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:19:43 -0700 Message-ID: <4520.835301983@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , Scott Blachowicz writes: >Stephen McKay wrote: > >> Perhaps the folks with really slow modems can convince Poul to split them >> off into a sub-group that has a smaller upper file size limit. Want to >> conduct a ctm user survey, Poul? Sure go ahead and tell me the result :) Basically, anything you can think of can be done, just send me the patches :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 13:24:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05370 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA05336; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA06488; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:23:45 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199606202023.WAA06488@grumble.grondar.za> To: committers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: More bloat removal... secure_rpc Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:23:44 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi folx In the secure dist is secure_rpc. This has never worked, and now Bill Paul (wpaul) has got a other (?) sources going, but cannot import them because they are legally questionable. (Diffie- Hellman patent (?) ). OK if I nuke'em? M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 14:11:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08877 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08863 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA22097; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:10:43 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA26700; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:10:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17304; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:31:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606201831.UAA17304@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:31:37 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kallio@cc.jyu.fi Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <15915.835263633@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 20, 96 02:40:33 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > # usage: burncd input-file > function burncd { > if [ $# -lt 1 ]; then > echo "usage: burncd input-file" > elif [ ! -f $1 ]; then > echo "burncd: $1 is not a valid file." > elif [ "`id -u`" != "0" ]; then > echo "Sorry, this must be done as root." > else > echo -n "Please CD in the writer now and press return: " > read junk (*) > wormcontrol select HP 4020i > wormcontrol prepdisk double > wormcontrol track data > rtprio 5 team -v 1m 5 < $1 | dd of=/dev/rworm0 obs=20k > wormcontrol fixate 1 > fi > } > Please, insert the following at the asterisk mark: scsi -f /dev/rworm0.ctl -c "0 0 0 0 0 0" >/dev/null 2>&1 This is a dummy SCSI command (TEST UNIT READY) serving as a catcher for the potential UNIT ATTENTION condition that might still be pending in your drive at this time. Some day i will fix the driver to do this for you... Danger will robinson if you forget to catch it (since the wormcontrol prepdisk will fail then). And yep, don't forget to install the team(1) first (it's available as a package now)! Most likely, you are required to have /usr/local/bin in your path as well. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 14:11:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08916 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08908 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA22106; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:10:46 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA26704; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:10:46 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA17332; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:34:21 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606201834.UAA17332@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:34:21 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kallio@cc.jyu.fi Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960620124509.00932760@awod.com> from Ken Lam at "Jun 20, 96 08:45:09 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Ken Lam wrote: > that is what Jordan's first script did. I am assuming that the cd-fs > written is ISO9660 so that MSDOS could read it with no difficulties. It's actually an ISO-9660 image with Rock Ridge extensions (-R), and with 00_TRANS.TBL files (-T) for those systems that cannot make sense out of Rock Ridge. For those that can, even long file names, Unix device nodes etc. are supported. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 14:13:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09027 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09021 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA22159; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:11:25 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA26721; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:11:25 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA18479; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:13:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606202013.WAA18479@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: reboot beeps To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:13:36 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606190742.JAA12979@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from "Christoph P. Kukulies" at "Jun 19, 96 09:42:07 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph P. Kukulies wrote: > I don't understand that it's recognized as a 8003. It's > definitely a 8013 (a very early one, though). I'll have a look > at the board later today. ED(4) FreeBSD Programmer's Manual ED(4) NAME ed - high performance ethernet device driver ... The flags are a bit field, and are summerized as follows: ... 0x04 Force 16bit mode. This flag forces the card to 16bit mode regardless of how the card identifies itself. This may be needed for some clones which incorrectly identify them- selves as 8bit, even though they have a 16bit ISA inter- face. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 14:13:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09114 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09108 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA16415 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:13:45 -0700 Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-2) with ESMTP id VAA07094; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:59:06 +0100 (BST) To: Paulo Menezes cc: current@freebsd.org From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: out of ptys? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:17:55 BST." Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 21:59:05 +0100 Message-ID: <7092.835304345@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paulo Menezes wrote in message ID : > > In the LINT file it says that the maximum number of ptys is 64, but in It does? Whoops. I think the limit is actually 256 now (can someone confirm this?) > the telnetd sources it is limited to 32. Why? Is there any problem in > raising the telnetd limit to 64? I can't actually find this limit (not obviously anyhow). There is even a comment: /* * This stat() check is just to keep us from * looping through all 256 combinations if there * aren't that many ptys available. */ at line 522 in /usr/src/libexec/telnetd/sys_term.c ... Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 14:37:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11236 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11202; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA00984; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:35:20 -0400 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199606202135.RAA00984@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: More bloat removal... secure_rpc To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Cc: committers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606202023.WAA06488@grumble.grondar.za> from "Mark Murray" at Jun 20, 96 10:23:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the world, Mark Murray had to walk into mine and say: > Hi folx > > In the secure dist is secure_rpc. This has never worked, and now > Bill Paul (wpaul) has got a other (?) sources going, but cannot > import them because they are legally questionable. (Diffie- > Hellman patent (?) ). > > OK if I nuke'em? It's okay by me. The Diffie-Hellman patent supposedly expires in 1997, so I won't be able to do anything with it until then. When I finally do start merging stuff in, I plan to import each individual piece into the correct subdirectory in the tree, as with the NIS stuff. This means keyserv and rpc.ypupdated will go in src/usr.sbin, keyenvoy in src/libexec, keylogin and chkey in src/usr.bin, and so on. The actual library modifications, new header files and man pages will get merged in with the existing stuff, so no new directories will be needed for that, and only a relatively small number of extra files will be added. Secure RPC itself only uses DES for authentication, so it isn't export-restricted and can be included on the CD as long as the DES encryption functions are broken out. (Suggestions on what to use for a replacement algorithm are welcome. I vote for rot13. :) If it wasn't for Diffie-Hellman, I would have done this already. (And of course, once Secure RPC in in place, the way will be clear for me to inflict NIS+ on the unsuspecting free OS world. :) -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= License error: The license for this .sig file has expired. You must obtain a new license key before any more witty phrases will appear in this space. ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 14:39:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11430 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-134.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11397; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA04427; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:05:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606200105.DAA04427@vector.jhs.no_domain> X-Authentication-Warning: vector.jhs.no_domain: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: xditview From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:10:34 PDT." <22303.835175434@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:05:38 +0200 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > Subject: Re: xditview > Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:10:34 -0700 > Message-id: <22303.835175434@time.cdrom.com> > > > Shudder ... `unbundling' Eh ? > No, rebundling. > > > Stripped down op. systems with optional C compiler & text processing system - s > ? > > No. Everything which is there will remain, just differently encapsulated. > > > however, there might be a benefit to not having to BSD-make convert > > the mega FSF distribs such as gcc & groff etc, each time they upgrade. > > Yes! > > Jordan Thanks for answering the side issues, now please don't over look the main issue ;-) > To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > Cc: current@FreeBSD.org > Subject: Re: xditview > From: "Julian H. Stacey" > Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:59:45 +0200 > > Hi, Reference: > > From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > > > > Well, if ones source tree were 99% X source code free, wouldn't you be > > tempted to go for that final 1%? :-) > > Yes, If it had never gone in it would have been fine, > or if it had been in only a short while, > but it seems dubious from a quality control viewpoint, to now remove > a facility CD users have had at least 2 releases to get used to having > available (2.0.5 & 2.1). > > A simple .if exist .... SUBDIR += would suffice, wouldn't it ?. Accepting Mike's subsequent comment: > From: Michael Smith > Subject: Re: xditview > To: jhs@freebsd.org > Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:32:38 +0930 (CST) > Cc: current@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org > > Actually, it would cause 'make world' to fail if /usr/X11R6 were present > but not complete (eg. only libraries were present, say for running emacs), > or not writable (eg. mounted readonly via NFS), or if you built on a > machine with no X and then tried 'make reinstall' onto one that had > X, the 'reinstall' would fail. > > > A better solution may be something like: > > src/gnu/usr.bin/groff/Makefile: > > .if exists(${X11BASE}/include) > > .if exists(${X11BASE}/lib) > > SUBDIR +=xditview > > You would need to add a writability test too. I would have been happy > with the build or install failing and being ignored, but I couldn't > come up with a way for it to be done tidily. As you (I believe) too crudely nuked the tree, IMO it's your responsibility to repair the damage your butchery has inflicted, & find some better solution, even if no better than a crude: src back out of Attic, & .if defined(XDITVIEW) SUBDIR +=xditview. I can't believe you would want to forget the issue, and just leave the butchery unfixed. It's unprofessional to toss out functionality, without careful consideration & list discussion, now we realise that at least 2 previous public releases of our FreeBSD product has offered xditview facility to users. Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 14:40:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11645 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-134.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11547; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA04323; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:02:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606200002.CAA04323@vector.jhs.no_domain> X-Authentication-Warning: vector.jhs.no_domain: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:53:42 BST." <199606191153.MAA07207@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:02:44 +0200 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To current@FreeBSD.org Reference: > From: Paul Richards > > Unfortunately, it's a fact of life in FreeBSD these days that certain > people in core consider FreeBSD to be theirs and don't see any need to > discuss issues with the project as a whole or even other core members > because it just gets in their way. It's time we had FreeBSD Annual Election Of Officials. An increasingly autocratic attitude is noticeable, as is a tendency to weigh proposals more by personalities & less by technicalities :-( Periodic elections could restrain the autocractic tendency. New, fresh, & rotated officials would invigorate the project. No FreeBSD `officer', core, or commiter, was ever elected (or sacked) by an electorate of current members. They are currently `office-holders-for-life', there until they retire or drop dead. FreeBSD is now a mature project, The un-elected oligarchy served us well in the boot straping phase, but more people are now available, & some change would prevent sclerosis. The current oligarchy has no automatic right to a respect for their offices. Mostly they've done a great job, & I wouldn't want to see a lot of change, but only democratic selection can give them real legitimacy. We deserve the current best occupant in each `official' position, & that does not necessarily always match the dead hand of history, whereby those first appointed get top positions for life ! [ Universities allow creative sabaticals, Government cabinet ministers reshuffle jobs every 6 months or so. British Telecom & the Halifax building society (biggest in UK) have board members all of whom take turns to automatically retire by rotation (inc. current Halifax chairman), & reseek office by election. ] I Propose: - Office-holders (President etc) be selected by competitive election, every 6 or 12 months, by core or commiters or current. (& on a question of semantics, if he/she is just elected by core he/she is `FreeBSD-core Chairman' & Not `FreeBSD President', the later resounding title is just mis-labelling unless elected by _many_ FreeBSD people. - Core should be selected by competitive election, by commiters or current, probably annually, either all at once, or on a "retire by rotation & seek re-election" system, just like any proper board of directors. - Commiters should be selected by some sort of fair mechanism: enrollment _&_ removal should be confirmed by formal announced vote in `core', not by arbitrary decision of a leading official. PS I see FreeBSD Inc as unconnected to the above suggestions, I'm not bothered what founders of that USA company call themselves, (so long as no attempt to transfer ownership of FreeBSD code that way is made). If we continue the drift towards autocracy, & allow a tendency to weigh ideas & proposals by personalities rather than technicalities, - We will drift on bickering toward chances of another repeat explosion that will produce Yet_Another_BSD, to join {Free & Net & Open }BSD, - It'll get ever more tedious - corollary of "A change is as good as a rest". Let's clear the air, & adopt regular democratic procedures of some sort, that would give our officials real moral authority at last, to replace the antiquated autocratic method, where core annoints holy ones for life ;-) Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 14:42:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11870 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haywire.DIALix.COM (root@haywire.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11855 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news@localhost) by haywire.DIALix.COM (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA26443 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:41:47 +0800 (WST) X-Authentication-Warning: haywire.DIALix.COM: news set sender to usenet-request@haywire.dialix.com using -f Received: from GATEWAY by haywire.DIALix.COM with netnews for freebsd-current@freebsd.org (problems to: usenet@haywire.dialix.com) To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: 20 Jun 1996 21:41:46 GMT From: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Message-ID: <4qcgiq$gvg$2@haywire.DIALix.COM> Organization: DIALix Services, Perth, Australia. References: <1867.835165278@critter.tfs.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199606191511.JAA05842@rocky.sri.mt.net>, nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) writes: >> >> 3. It makes it easier for people to experiment with a never version >> >> on their own. >> > >> >Ports already allows for this. >> no. >> >> Try gcc for a prime example of how it doesn't work. > > Huh? There are lots of folks using the PGCC port. Also, it took me *two hours* to produce a bmake'd gcc-2.7.2 by hand given the existing tree and Makefiles. And along the way, I merged in *two* overlapping patches from Bruce Evans, and later scanned the gcc commits to see what had been missed. Later on, I revived the objective C and libobjc stuff that had been left out of the original makefiles. >> >> 4. It takes up LESS space. >> > >> >BS. The *first* version takes up less space, but for every version >> >afterwards it takes up *incredibly* more space. Every new import >> >effectively doubles the space, since there is probably < 10% overlap in >> >a uuencoded gzip file. >> >> du(1) our gcc versions to see if that holds water :-) > > I just did. It looks pretty good considering how many changes have been > we've made. > > root:/home/CVS/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc # du -s > 12530 . > > root:/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc # du -s > 11534 . > > We're doing a darn good job of keeping things small. The CVS repository > is less than 10% larger with *ALL* of the revisions than the actual > source code. > > (Bad example, it actually encourages using CVS) Well, I'll also add some real numbers too for a 'major' change, since the versions in the repository are pretty minor differences (gcc-2.6.0 through 2.6.3). Going up to 2.7.2 (naturally) is a bigger hit, but it's *not* double. And the gcc in the tree is a special case because the vendor branch was screwed for gcc when the 2.6.1, 2.6.2 and 2.6.3 versions were spammed onto the top rather than imported - this causes all the files to *leave* the vendor branch and causes each delta to be twice as big as it should be. Even with that penalty, the update to 2.7.2 is quite reasonable... Some concrete numbers (I copied the repository on my machine and did some trial imports and generated a few ctm deltas to tie in that aspect): A "du -k" of the CVS repostitory for "cc" - Original: 12.4MB After 'cvs import' of needed pristine gcc-2.7.2 sources: 14.7MB (this is the diff from gcc-2.6.0+hacks -> gcc-2.7.2 on the vendor branch; 2.3MB) After folding changes onto the HEAD revision: 16.1MB (This takes the head from gcc-2.6.3+hacks -> gcc-2.7.3+hacks (including objc): 1.4MB). The total growth in the repository is 3.7MB, which is a 29.8% growth. The ctm delta from -current to just after the import is: 551KB; and when base64 encoded for email transmission: 746KB. The ctm delta from -current to after everything is finished is: 1.08MB; and when base64 encoded for mail: 1.47MB. In summary, the repository grows by 3.7MB, and the ctm'ers cop a 1.47MB email hit. The ctm load can be split so that it happens in two seperate stages, the import of 2.7.2 does not affect the build, so we could import then wait for the ctm deltas to go out, and 24 hours later complete it, causing two 750K deltas a day apart. The people ftping it would be up for less. My personal feeling is that the max emailed delta size should be dropped from 3MB to 1MB. Just for comparison, lets look at the option that ``takes up LESS space''.. First of all, the gcc-2.6.x stuff would be deleted from the HEAD, moving it to the Attic. So, CTM deletes the old files and sends whole new fresh copies to go into the Attic. So, we have about 12MB of delta to move.. When ctm does that, the delta (because it's internally gzipped) ends up at about 2.9MB, and when base64 encoded, it's expanded to 3.9MB of email to the ctm'ers *just to delete the old gcc-2.6*! And it would ge mailed, because it's just under the 3MB cutoff... Then, you expand the repository by adding gcc-2.7.2.tar.gz.uu (around 9.7MB) and (if it was mailed, it'd be 13.2MB of email). Then, to *build* it, it would cost around 25MB of disk space in your obj dir to extract the source, plus about 5MB of temporary files and objects. The only saving that I can see anywhere, is that the amount of space consumed by gcc in your checked out /usr/src tree, which would drop from 12MB to 10MB, but if you build it, you're far worse off... For those using CTM because they are not sitting on the end of a clear T1+ pipe to freefall and have to get this stuff somehow, that's 13MB+ of bad news.. Ever tried ftp'ing a 13MB delta into an account with a 5MB disk quota? Compared to some of the CTM'ers I'm lucky, I'm on the end of a permanent modem link and this stuff comes into a procmail filter that pipes it to ctm_rmail, but both machines recieving deltas broke and lost 1 and 4 deltas because of having 30+ simultanious sendmails bringing it and other stuff that had backlogged in parallel... > Nate -Peter From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 15:00:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14715 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14693; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA11554; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:00:29 -0600 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:00:29 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606202200.QAA11554@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606200002.CAA04323@vector.jhs.no_domain> References: <199606191153.MAA07207@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> <199606200002.CAA04323@vector.jhs.no_domain> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk { I'm going to go off and shoot some poor defenseless prairie-land creatuers with high-velocity metal in a few minutes, but this *needed* to be addressed. } > It's time we had FreeBSD Annual Election Of Officials. ... > > No FreeBSD `officer', core, or commiter, was ever elected (or sacked) by > an electorate of current members. They are currently > `office-holders-for-life', there until they retire or drop dead. > > FreeBSD is now a mature project, The un-elected oligarchy served us well > in the boot straping phase, but more people are now available, > & some change would prevent sclerosis. This is utter crap. The people who hold 'office' in the FreeBSD project are those folks who 'do' something. That means writing code, maintaining existing code, integrating outside code, and answering questions. The FreeBSD Project is *NOT* a democracy, and never will be. Hinting that it be that way is pure foolishness. If you want something done, *DO IT YOURSELF*. If it's good, it'll get into FreeBSD. If you do lots of good things, you'll end up as a core member and/or in one of the positions of 'leadership'. So, if you want something changed do it outside of email conversations and actually *DO* something. Even though I disagree with Poul's recent TCL stuff, at least he did something. I'd rather have Poul 'messing' things up occasionally than 20 'outsiders' telling him how to do things better. 'Nuff said, time for some gophers to *DIE*!!!!! Nate From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 16:01:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24181 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA24176; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA16611; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:59:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606202259.PAA16611@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: jhs@FreeBSD.org Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:59:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606200002.CAA04323@vector.jhs.no_domain> from "Julian H. Stacey" at Jun 20, 96 02:02:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > To current@FreeBSD.org > > Reference: > > From: Paul Richards > > > > Unfortunately, it's a fact of life in FreeBSD these days that certain > > people in core consider FreeBSD to be theirs and don't see any need to > > discuss issues with the project as a whole or even other core members > > because it just gets in their way. > > It's time we had FreeBSD Annual Election Of Officials. > > An increasingly autocratic attitude is noticeable, as is a tendency > to weigh proposals more by personalities & less by technicalities :-( > > Periodic elections could restrain the autocractic tendency. > New, fresh, & rotated officials would invigorate the project. [ ... ] 1) Jordan's relationship with "The FreeBSD Project Inc." is invariant, as is the relationship of other real corporate officers in that incorporated entity. 2) Jordan's relationship with Walnut Creek CDROM is invariant, since part of the donated support by WC CDROM is support (*generous* support) of a full time release engineer. This is the current situation, and it should remain so for the forseeable future. There is value in the incorporation seperate from the project, and there is value in Jordan's position in the project vis-a-vis the projects continuing affirmation of the relationship to Walnut Creek CDROM. Within the context of the project itself, you could argue for some structural changes, but before you do so, it would be wise to ensure that the allowable range of decisions can not adversely impact either of (1) or (2) above. It would be wise to establish ground rules for what is or isn't sacrosanct before calling for grass-roots support of a general idea which could turn out to have unforseen and undesirable consequences. I do not necessarily support the "status quo". I think that more than a year has gone by since the Lite2 release, and it has not yet been fully integrated (that I haven't been as zealous in the debugging of Jeffrey Hsu's fine work in this regard as I might have is definitely a red flag for me, personally)... this, and other similar things may in fact be deplorable (or not, depending on your point of view and schedule of values). Regardless of my personal opinions, I would advise great caution if you chooe to go down this path, as it is fraught with peril. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 16:07:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24396 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA24391 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA15240; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:08:04 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:08:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: config.c missing? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Heya folks, Trying to compile a kernel using a source tree supped as of today (20-June), and when I do "make depend" I'm getting: ... sh ../../kern/vnode_if.sh ../../kern/vnode_if.src rm -f .newdep mkdep -a -f .newdep -nostdinc -I. ....... [...bunch of stuff...] trcmp.c ../../libkern/strcpy.c ../../libkern/strlen.c ../../libkern/strncmp.c ../../libkern/strncpy.c ../../libkern/udivdi3.c ../../libkern/umoddi3.c ../../pci/wd82371.c swapkernel.c ioconf.c param.c vnode_if.c config.c cc: config.c: No such file or directory Can anyone tell me why I'm missing config.c? Has something changed in the kernel-making process I don't understand? Thanks, Brian From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 16:10:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24590 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA24585; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA16634; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:06:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606202306.QAA16634@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: scott@statsci.com Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:06:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Scott Blachowicz" at Jun 19, 96 08:15:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I like the idea of vendor-branching, but, for instance, the ability > > to build cross environments or alternate processor architectures is > > not handled well by the GNU "Configure" crap, which wants to "localize" > > source to the target environment. > > But, you can specify a --srcdir option to separate the localizations from > the master source. This is not the same. The GNU stuff lacks encapsulation. It wants to put tendrils all over. It wants to rewrite include files, and all other types of evil, unacceptable acts. > > This is simply something that the > > GNU folks "do badly". It's hard to agree to not replacing code that > > I believe is "done badly". > > Hmmm...how so? You mean just that it doesn't handle it out of the box so > that the default is keep the localizations separate? It's easy enough to > wrap what's provided in a heterogenous and/or source tree separated > environment. Or am I misinterpreting your objections? # CFLAGS= -target powerpc # export CFLAGS # make world I could do this with "-target x16" on the NCR build tree to build an XP kernel on an NCR Tower32. > or to do them in parallel with a "rsh to groups of hosts" perl script: [ ... ] Here is the difference: I want to build for multiple hosts on one host to produce a portation cross environment. The lack of portation cross environments is the main reason fir the lack of portation, IMO. > although I usually do the build first & check the gmake output before > installing the software. Variant symbolic links (I would use a logical name implementation for environment variables) is probably a prerequisite for something that doesn't have scripted intelligence, but it's still possible to build using a cross-environment based on an environment variable -- IF the cross environment didn't depend on the installed environment or installation as part of the build procedure (like GCC's "stage 3" compiler does). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 16:21:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA25256 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA25249; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA16672; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:16:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606202316.QAA16672@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:16:49 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, phk@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606200347.NAA05052@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jun 20, 96 01:17:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I don't remember this; was this not on -current or -hackers where this > > was discussed? > > I'm fairly sure it was on one of the above; my reading list is probably > a small subset of yours so I'm surprised you don't recall it. It's also > not inconcievable that I'm hallucinating and that I was in fact > participating in a conversation with a couple of fluffy blue cushions. 8-). > > I like the idea of vendor-branching, but, for instance, the ability > > to build cross environments or alternate processor architectures is > > not handled well by the GNU "Configure" crap, which wants to "localize" > > source to the target environment. This is simply something that the > > GNU folks "do badly". It's hard to agree to not replacing code that > > I believe is "done badly". > > It's lots easier to decide that you shouldn't have done it when the next > version comes along and you have to merge their changes with yours. This is only an issue if the vendor goes through serious code reorganization between releases. This generally does not happen for an evolutionary product. You handle this by shadowing the build tree and making from the vendor tree. You apply branch deltas, as necessary, to localise, and you pass back, in their build tree layout format, the changes necessary for your platform, for inclusion in the next release. > However; if a third-party supplied product is to be included with a minimum > of fuss, _particularly_ an excessively hairy one like GCC, it would be > _desirable_ to have a means of mapping its own build functionality to > that required by the current FreeBSD structure. GCC has some recognizably broken behavior in its use of localization instead of conditional compilation. The need for localization persists precisely because they have not dealt with the issues by resolving them instead of adding localization data. Actually, I agree with you for most conditionally-compiled packages, it's just that the FLEX example was invalid, and anything that goes through GNU configure is kind of bogus for any cross-platform shared (aka "Read Only") source trees. The error with that, I guess, is that the packages that are being conditionally-compiled... don't cause the type of problem that this is tying to solve. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 17:33:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA29567 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gargoyle.bazzle.com ([206.103.246.190]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29553 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ejc@localhost) by gargoyle.bazzle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA04971; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:32:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric J. Chet" To: Peter Wemm cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: gcc-2.7.2 -frepo patches In-Reply-To: <4qcgiq$gvg$2@haywire.DIALix.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Did you get the g++ repository patches I sent you? What do you think about including them? Peace, Eric J. Chet - ejc@bazzle.com - Powered by FreeBSD | Live Free or Die Lucent Technologies, Bell Labs Innovations | UNIX Columbus, Ohio 43213 RM 1E222 ejc@nasvr1.cb.lucent.com | Bell Labs From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 18:00:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01013 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01007; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA04588; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:59:45 -0700 (PDT) To: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: xditview In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:05:38 +0200." <199606200105.DAA04427@vector.jhs.no_domain> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:59:45 -0700 Message-ID: <4585.835318785@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As you (I believe) too crudely nuked the tree, IMO it's your responsibility > to repair the damage your butchery has inflicted, & find some better As usual, your reactions are extreme and unassailable by any form of logic known to me, so I'll choose to simply avoid debate. You also have an annoying penchant for focusing hyperintensively on items that I would generally consider unworthy of dedicating even half a neuron-second to, something that invariably leads to a predicable outcome anyway - I'll lose interest in discussing it long before you do and will simply throw up my hands in disgust and go back to whatever *much more important than flarking *xditview* issue I was dealing with before! :-) One man's monumenal issues are often another man's minutia. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 18:14:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02086 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01595 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fcurrent@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA05618; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:23:46 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:23:46 GMT Message-Id: <199606202223.WAA05618@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: peter@spinner.dialix.com CC: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <4qc794$gvg$1@haywire.DIALix.COM> (message from Peter Wemm on 20 Jun 1996 19:03:00 GMT) Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And the gcc delta wont be 25MB at all if I have my way. [...] > so by the time it's all over, there may be a doubling of the delta size > to nearly 740K (or 1MB encoded). As someone who has been "whingeing" recently, I'd like to thank Peter for taking the trouble to explain in public what he intends to do and giving advance warning so that people can take avoiding action if they so wish. Personally, I'm looking forward to downloading it and seeing if the code I've worked on will stand up to its exacting scrutiny 8-) -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 18:15:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02235 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk (jraynard.demon.co.uk [158.152.42.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA02221 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fcurrent@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id NAA01645; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:10:13 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:10:13 GMT Message-Id: <199606201310.NAA01645@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Syscons and X Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've recently switched back to using syscons after successfully running pcvt for several months and have noticed something strange. Sometimes when I quit X and type anything at the console, any keys that I press seem to be read as if I were holding the control key down, eg if I press 'p', the last command I typed appears at the prompt, pressing 'l' clears the screen and 'd' logs me out! This doesn't seem to happen if I type commands at another virtual terminal where I am logged in as myself - in fact, switching from the console to such a vty seems to clear the condition. It seems to happen intermittently - like all the best bugs, it usually only occurs when I'm not looking for it 8-) BTW I've seen this with both sh and bash as the root login shell. -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 18:26:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA03454 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA03445; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA04667; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:25:56 -0700 (PDT) To: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 02:02:44 +0200." <199606200002.CAA04323@vector.jhs.no_domain> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:25:56 -0700 Message-ID: <4665.835320356@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's time we had FreeBSD Annual Election Of Officials. Look, Julian, I'm sure you mean well but honestly, all of this looks suspiciously like an artificial system constructed for the benefit of those members of FreeBSD's user base who would like to be able to steer the wagon without ever having to feed the horse. The people who "drive" FreeBSD, autocratically or otherwise, are the ones who put the actual work into making it move. This is a system of leadership by example, and if people like what a given person (or set of persons) are doing with the project then they follow them and that person or persons are now, for all intents and purposes, "the leaders." If one of them should falter or slow down to the point where nobody's following them then they're no longer leading and you don't need an election to tell you what common sense should have already dictated. You go find somebody else people seem to respect, push them to the front and say "here, you do it now." If somebody more "presidential" than I should come along and clearly demonstrates that he or she can and does want to do a better job, heck, it's theirs. I'll blissfully go back to having hacking code be my sole worry in life. But award the post by merit, not by picking the candidate who's demonstrated the greatest skill at electioneering. Assuming that the electorate is smart enough to elect the best man is how people like Ronald Reagan come to power. Don't also mix up what the FreeBSD "officers" do and what an individual committer (who may or may not also be an officer) might run off and do without reasonable notification. ANY of the people with commit privileges has the power to create something like the recent tcl contraversy, and most of the older committers have in fact each gotten their fingers burned at least once. There is an entirely separate type of self-discipline required and has nothing to do with elections or management structure. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 19:00:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA05535 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA05516; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA08211; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:02:49 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606210232.MAA08211@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: xditview To: jhs@FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:02:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606200105.DAA04427@vector.jhs.no_domain> from "Julian H. Stacey" at Jun 20, 96 03:05:38 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian H. Stacey stands accused of saying: > It's unprofessional to toss out functionality, without careful > consideration & list discussion, now we realise that at least 2 previous > public releases of our FreeBSD product has offered xditview facility > to users. Actually, the basic premise "No X code in the base tree" was established some time ago. Personally, I wouldn't mind having an _optional_ category for base system components that were X-dependent for things like gxditview, Tk, pTk etc. However this is something that should be done properly, and in the meantime the systematic removal of all X code is a wise start. > Julian -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 19:12:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA06226 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA06218; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 19:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA08253; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:14:59 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606210244.MAA08253@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: jhs@FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:14:58 +0930 (CST) Cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606200002.CAA04323@vector.jhs.no_domain> from "Julian H. Stacey" at Jun 20, 96 02:02:44 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian H. Stacey stands accused of saying: > > FreeBSD is now a mature project, The un-elected oligarchy served us well > in the boot straping phase, but more people are now available, > & some change would prevent sclerosis. Oh very funny. If this wasn't just totally fallacious, the rest of your suggestions would be slightly less laugable. As it is, the current team have the respect of all but a chronically dissatisfied few, and most of the rest of us would prefer to hack than politik. > We deserve the current best occupant in each `official' position, > & that does not necessarily always match the dead hand of history, > whereby those first appointed get top positions for life ! And you're suggesting that "democratic" elections result in the best occupants for a position? A selection process that has nothing to do with aptitude for the job? Please, don't make me laugh. The _only_ criteria that should qualify one for any "position" is _demonstrated_aptitude_and_dedication_. I don't think that any of the current incumbents fail this criteria. > Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ I'd suggest a long walk in the sunshine. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 20:04:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA09944 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA09917 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.208]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA13707; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA07946; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:03:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: James Raynard cc: peter@spinner.dialix.com, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm In-Reply-To: <199606202223.WAA05618@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, James Raynard wrote: > > And the gcc delta wont be 25MB at all if I have my way. > [...] > > so by the time it's all over, there may be a doubling of the delta size > > to nearly 740K (or 1MB encoded). > > As someone who has been "whingeing" recently, I'd like to thank Peter > for taking the trouble to explain in public what he intends to do and > giving advance warning so that people can take avoiding action if they > so wish. > > Personally, I'm looking forward to downloading it and seeing if the > code I've worked on will stand up to its exacting scrutiny 8-) Let me second that. I guess I don't have to worry about a 25 MB mail hit, and since Peter went to so much trouble to test out the approaches to the problem, I guess sanity will privail. Nice going, and thanks! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 20:53:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA14004 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA13996 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA08584; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:56:17 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606210426.NAA08584@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:56:17 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9606201507.AA26764@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from "Garrett Wollman" at Jun 20, 96 11:07:24 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Garrett Wollman stands accused of saying: > > > If the current build scheme can't handle third-party build structures > > in some sensible fashion, then it is _BROKEN_ from the point of view of > > the useful continuation of the expansion of FreeBSD. > > I agree with your statement as a whole, but the premise is false. The > current build scheme CAN handle third-party structures in a sensible > fashion (by ignoring them and working in a separate directory). Ah! This is something that has never been adequately explained before. I presume this ties in with the suggestion (made by Tom?) of leaving the vendor tree aside and building in another directory using VPATH? ... following this further down the track, looking at Jordan's gripes with the whole objdir thing, would it be practical to build the obj tree and populate it with symlinks to corresponding makefiles, and then use VPATH to find the sources? Is 'make' capable of determining whether the Makefile it's reading is a symlink and determining the true location of the file (this would make automating the VPATH generation trivial, rather than having to handcode it into every Makefile). Would this cover any/many of the obj-dir complaints? > -GAWollman -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 22:44:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA21202 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (ppp-5-7.rdcy01.pacbell.net [206.170.5.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21182; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pst@localhost) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA17055; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:44:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul Traina Message-Id: <199606210544.WAA17055@precipice.shockwave.com> To: freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: sup2 down for indefinite period... Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Unfortunately, the new home of sup2 had a firewall in front of it and poorer connectivity than I had hoped for, so until sup2 finds a new physical home, it's off the air for sup service. Sorry, please gang up on sup5. Paul From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 23:31:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA25889 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA25882 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA14266; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:31:08 +0200 Message-Id: <199606210631.IAA14266@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Syscons and X To: fcurrent@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:31:07 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606201310.NAA01645@jraynard.demon.co.uk> from "James Raynard" at Jun 20, 96 01:10:13 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to James Raynard who wrote: > > I've recently switched back to using syscons after successfully > running pcvt for several months and have noticed something strange. > > Sometimes when I quit X and type anything at the console, any keys > that I press seem to be read as if I were holding the control key > down, eg if I press 'p', the last command I typed appears at the > prompt, pressing 'l' clears the screen and 'd' logs me out! Ahem, I know of this bug too, its on my list of "known errors".. I also know what happens, but damn if I can understand why :( Anyways I'm committing a new version of syscons later today that sports textmode cut&paste plus some other bugfixes, I'll take a plunge and see if I can get this fixed also... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 23:52:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA27195 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA27190 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA10838; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:50:59 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA01180; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:50:58 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA21028; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:22:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606210622.IAA21028@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: config.c missing? To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:22:29 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian N. Handy) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Brian N. Handy" at "Jun 20, 96 04:08:04 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Brian N. Handy wrote: > trcmp.c ../../libkern/strcpy.c ../../libkern/strlen.c > ../../libkern/strncmp.c ../../libkern/strncpy.c ../../libkern/udivdi3.c > ../../libkern/umoddi3.c ../../pci/wd82371.c swapkernel.c ioconf.c > param.c vnode_if.c config.c > cc: config.c: No such file or directory Update your config(8), and re-run it. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 23:58:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA27523 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA27509; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA14375; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:58:04 +0200 Message-Id: <199606210658.IAA14375@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. To: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:58:04 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current), phk@ra.dkuug.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) In-Reply-To: <4qcgiq$gvg$2@haywire.DIALix.COM> from "Peter Wemm" at Jun 20, 96 09:41:46 pm From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Peter Wemm who wrote: See that is "hard evidence" that everybody should be able to understand, then tell me again how "bright" an idea that ploy was again please.... I think the only valid point to be made here is that we need to deligate the tasks of keeping these things up to date. I know its not fun, so thats why it gets neglected. We need to deal with that somehow. Lets talk about that and then let this bright idea die a fast and ugly death .... hey Nate - got more of that "fast moving metal" around ?? :) :) > In summary, the repository grows by 3.7MB, and the ctm'ers cop a 1.47MB > email hit. The ctm load can be split so that it happens in two seperate > stages, the import of 2.7.2 does not affect the build, so we could import > then wait for the ctm deltas to go out, and 24 hours later complete it, > causing two 750K deltas a day apart. The people ftping it would be up > for less. > > Just for comparison, lets look at the option that ``takes up LESS space''.. > > First of all, the gcc-2.6.x stuff would be deleted from the HEAD, moving it > to the Attic. So, CTM deletes the old files and sends whole new fresh > copies to go into the Attic. So, we have about 12MB of delta to move.. > > When ctm does that, the delta (because it's internally gzipped) ends up at > about 2.9MB, and when base64 encoded, it's expanded to 3.9MB of email to > the ctm'ers *just to delete the old gcc-2.6*! And it would ge mailed, because > it's just under the 3MB cutoff... > > Then, you expand the repository by adding gcc-2.7.2.tar.gz.uu (around 9.7MB) > and (if it was mailed, it'd be 13.2MB of email). > > Then, to *build* it, it would cost around 25MB of disk space in your obj > dir to extract the source, plus about 5MB of temporary files and objects. > > The only saving that I can see anywhere, is that the amount of space consumed > by gcc in your checked out /usr/src tree, which would drop from 12MB to 10MB, > but if you build it, you're far worse off... > > For those using CTM because they are not sitting on the end of a clear T1+ > pipe to freefall and have to get this stuff somehow, that's 13MB+ of bad > news.. Ever tried ftp'ing a 13MB delta into an account with a 5MB disk quota? > Compared to some of the CTM'ers I'm lucky, I'm on the end of a permanent > modem link and this stuff comes into a procmail filter that pipes it to > ctm_rmail, but both machines recieving deltas broke and lost 1 and 4 deltas > because of having 30+ simultanious sendmails bringing it and other stuff > that had backlogged in parallel... > > > Nate > > -Peter > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Jun 20 23:59:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA27707 for current-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA27702 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA01081; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:59:19 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA01100; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606210659.XAA01100@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD-current users), kallio@cc.jyu.fi Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 20 Jun 96 20:34:21 +0200. <199606201834.UAA17332@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:59:17 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >As Ken Lam wrote: >> that is what Jordan's first script did. I am assuming that the cd-fs >> written is ISO9660 so that MSDOS could read it with no difficulties. >It's actually an ISO-9660 image with Rock Ridge extensions (-R), and >with 00_TRANS.TBL files (-T) for those systems that cannot make sense >out of Rock Ridge. For those that can, even long file names, Unix >device nodes etc. are supported. I would hope so. Since I write my NetBSD CD-ROMs on a DOS box, and they read just fine when I get them home. It just wish it wouldn't truncate the *$&($*# filenames. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 00:35:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA29321 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29316 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id JAA14599; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:15:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA00420; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:21:35 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:21:34 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: Terry Lambert cc: Nate Williams , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-Reply-To: <199606191942.MAA13802@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > I'm against the inclusion of TCL in the main line source tree > for the same reason that I don't believe an "add user" script should > be written in PERL: because it limits the reusuability of the code > by blurring its boundries to the point that the algorithm is not > fundamentally seperable from the interface implementation. Generally I share your sight, but even SunSofts Solaris 2.x uses tk in the main system... -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 00:35:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA29356 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29345; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id JAA14730; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:15:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA00438; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:26:49 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:26:49 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Seppo Kallio , users@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <15915.835263633@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Is there tools to write CD ROM using FreeBSD + some model of CD Writer > > hardware? > > Yep! If you're running -current you can use Joerg's worm device, > just add an entry like so in your kernel config: In the new iX I read about a new Linux frontend for doing this business: cdwtools. It seems to use dialog and looks very nice. Another important program for inclusion into /usr/bin ?! http://www1.tu-chemnitz.de/ftp-home/pub/linux/sunsite.unc-mirror/utils/disk-management And perhaps in (guessed): ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/linux/utils/disk-management Andreas /// -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 03:54:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA07366 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA07360 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA15345 for current@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:54:12 +0200 Message-Id: <199606211054.MAA15345@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... To: current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:54:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just put in the last bits to get CUT&PASTE to work in syscons. This now allow one to C&P between the consoles using the mouse to select the needed text. For this to work, run the moused daemon with the prober parameters specifying mousetype & port. Then on the console where this feature is needed just say vidcontrol -m on, and a mousepointer will show up on the screen. Left button cuts & right button paste. I'd like to hear how this works out with different mousetypes and especially with different display hardware. Please note this works only on ega's and above, as the mousepointer is done by reprogramming the charset, giving the illusion that a "real" graphic mousepointer is used. There still need to be implemented a prober eventhandling mechanism but thats still on the drawingboard. When that is done, applications can start using this feature as well (libdialog comes to mind)... Have fun... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 04:24:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA09804 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09797; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA12613; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:22:34 +0100 Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk (actually host cadair) by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:22:52 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA16736; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:22:07 +0100 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:22:07 +0100 Message-Id: <199606211122.MAA16736@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606200002.CAA04323@vector.jhs.no_domain> References: <199606191153.MAA07207@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> <199606200002.CAA04323@vector.jhs.no_domain> Reply-To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk From: Paul Richards X-Attribution: Paul X-Mailer: GNU Emacs [19.30.1], RMAIL, Mailcrypt [3.3] Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> ""Julian" == "Julian H Stacey" writes: "Julian> To current@FreeBSD.org Reference: >> From: Paul Richards >> >> Unfortunately, it's a fact of life in FreeBSD these days that >> certain people in core consider FreeBSD to be theirs and don't see >> any need to discuss issues with the project as a whole or even >> other core members because it just gets in their way. "Julian> It's time we had FreeBSD Annual Election Of Officials. "Julian> An increasingly autocratic attitude is noticeable, as is a "Julian> tendency to weigh proposals more by personalities & less by "Julian> technicalities :-( Umm, this is going a bit over the top. Things are generally working fine as they are. The gripe I have is that occasionally some members of the core team just go ahead and do things their way without consulting anyone because they know that the issue is likely to be contentious and don't want the discussion to prevent things happening. The crux is that the issues that are contentious are the very one's that should be widely discussed and if the outcome is that nothing happens then that's probably better than having something in FreeBSD that a lot of people consider bad. The tcl issue is a perfect example, Poul and Jordan knew it was going to be contentious and took the position of just getting it in and dealing with the flack rather than discussing the issue and risk nothing happening. It's this attitude that annoys me and thus I made the comment I did above. Nothing happening would have been a better outcome if that's what a discussion would have resulted in since what we currently have is an abomination that *no-one* has anything good to say about. Can we please back out the tcl crap and bmake it properly. Everyone seems to be in favour of this and as many people have said the workload involved in bkmaking something properly, using a vendor branch, is not that great. Moving from gcc1 to gcc2, which was basically bmaking gcc2 from scratch only took me a day when it was done originally and that involved solving the basic issues of how gcc was going to sit in our tree and dealing with all the issues of getting our tree gcc2 ready. There were several updates in quick succession around that time and they were done in hours. It really isn't a big deal. The reason no-one can be bothered to keep these tools up to date is that there's no burning reason to do so and more interesting things tend to take priority. That and the fact that a lot of them are rather broken in the way they were imported, we probably need to sweep through the cvs tree and get third party code back on proper vendor branches. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 04:38:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA10533 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (root@grumble.grondar.za [196.7.18.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA10523; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grumble.grondar.za (mark@localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grumble.grondar.za (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08305; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:37:32 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199606211137.NAA08305@grumble.grondar.za> To: sos@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current) Subject: Re: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:37:32 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I just put in the last bits to get CUT&PASTE to work in syscons. > This now allow one to C&P between the consoles using the mouse > to select the needed text. Magic! > For this to work, run the moused daemon with the prober parameters > specifying mousetype & port. Then on the console where this feature > is needed just say vidcontrol -m on, and a mousepointer will show > up on the screen. Left button cuts & right button paste. > I'd like to hear how this works out with different mousetypes and > especially with different display hardware. Please note this works > only on ega's and above, as the mousepointer is done by reprogramming > the charset, giving the illusion that a "real" graphic mousepointer > is used. How well does this co-exist with X? M -- Mark Murray 46 Harvey Rd, Claremont, Cape Town 7700, South Africa +27 21 61-3768 GMT+0200 Finger mark@grondar.za for PGP key From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 04:52:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA11080 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA11071; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id NAA23977; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:30:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA00786; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:37:47 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:37:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm Reply-To: Andreas Klemm To: Terry Lambert cc: phk@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606191840.LAA13530@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: I agree to Terry Lamberts arguments that integrating TCL into the main source tree might be not the right idea. If there are people writing admin tools for FreeBSD, they could make a port of it, that depends on the other needed ports ... So we could remove tcl from the main source tree and finish the debate ;-)) Bring back in mind: KISS "Keep It Small and Simple" Generally it was a cool idea, to bring in the ports collection stuff into the main source tree, because it really saves a lot of time. But from the cosmetic sight of view I think it's doen't fit in the old "look and feel". With the old look and feel I mean the nice source tree, where you can browse through the sources with grep ... Now I have to unpack tcl first before I can browse the sources ?! Not so cool, this is a mis-feature ! Would be nice if the consens would be, to bmake or remove it. The main source tree should be "grep-browseable" by default without doing make extracts (*shudder*). -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 04:55:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA11176 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA11168; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 04:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA15737; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:54:00 +0200 Message-Id: <199606211154.NAA15737@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:54:00 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606211137.NAA08305@grumble.grondar.za> from "Mark Murray" at Jun 21, 96 01:37:32 pm From: sos@freebsd.org Reply-to: sos@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Mark Murray who wrote: > > > I just put in the last bits to get CUT&PASTE to work in syscons. > > This now allow one to C&P between the consoles using the mouse > > to select the needed text. > > Magic! Oh, not really :) > How well does this co-exist with X? It doesn't interfear, but there is no connection between cutbuffers if thats what you mean. When I get the next layer done, one could rewrite X's mouseinterface to use this instead, but I see no actual benefit in that, given that X has to work for it on other platforms so the code will still be in there. What would be nice though, was that libdialog was "mouse aware" so you could click on buttons etc with the mouse... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 05:34:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA12606 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA12601 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA09426; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:34:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman), current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:56:17 +0930." <199606210426.NAA08584@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:34:00 -0700 Message-ID: <9424.835360440@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ah! This is something that has never been adequately explained before. > > I presume this ties in with the suggestion (made by Tom?) of leaving > the vendor tree aside and building in another directory using VPATH? There are lots of ways of going about this and yeah, this is one of them. I do rather like the idea of a separate hierarchy of makefiles which simply point at sections of a pristine "in its original box" port. It's more work than creating a tree of symlinks which mimic the the original port's structure so that you can simply use the port's native build mechanism, but creating symlink trees is also expensive. I've been shying away from suggesting this as a solution to the TCL problem for that reason. > ... following this further down the track, looking at Jordan's gripes > with the whole objdir thing, would it be practical to build the obj > tree and populate it with symlinks to corresponding makefiles, and then > use VPATH to find the sources? That would do it, sure. I've done simple tests with simply adding a VPATH line to an existing Makefile and then copying only the Makefile to another location - it works fine. Again, this is another problem with multiple solutions and I would be perfectly happy for us to pick any one of them, JUST SO LONG AS WE GOT THE HELL AWAY FROM MODIFYING /usr/src! :-) I really, genuinly do not understand why the obj mechanism was implemented with symlinks directly in /usr/src. There was clearly a *lot of work* put into making separated src/obj trees work, but then somebody who was obviously unclear on the original concept came along and broke the whole show again by making one simple conceptual mistake about how to point at the obj directories. One key mistake which broke the mechanism so badly that we might as well never have bothered with obj dirs in the first place. :-( It is /usr/src which should be pointed *to*, not point out - /usr/src shouldn't have a single goddamn symlink anywhere in it. Anyway, all of this has annoyed me enough that I've started re-writing bsd.obj.mk right now. The general behavior I'm looking for now is that if you do a make in any directory of /usr/src, the existance of the corresponding /usr/obj directory is checked and, if it exists, you'll automagically teleport over there for your make. The obj directory is built by the obj rule which also symlinks the Makefile from ${.CURDIR} over (and I guess that if you did a `make obj' from my /usr/obj as it currently stands, it would attempt to make a shadow of a shadow, but that case can be checked for :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 07:01:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16542 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA16536; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chuck@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA20205; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:01:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:01:36 -0400 From: Charles Green Message-Id: <199606211401.KAA20205@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> In-Reply-To: sos@freebsd.org "Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added..." (Jun 21, 12:54) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: sos@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... Cc: current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk sos@freebsd.org stands accused of saying: } Date: Jun 21, 12:54 } Subject: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... } } I just put in the last bits to get CUT&PASTE to work in syscons. } This now allow one to C&P between the consoles using the mouse } to select the needed text. } For this to work, run the moused daemon with the prober parameters } specifying mousetype & port. Then on the console where this feature } is needed just say vidcontrol -m on, and a mousepointer will show } up on the screen. Left button cuts & right button paste. } I'd like to hear how this works out with different mousetypes and } especially with different display hardware. Please note this works } only on ega's and above, as the mousepointer is done by reprogramming } the charset, giving the illusion that a "real" graphic mousepointer } is used. } There still need to be implemented a prober eventhandling mechanism } but thats still on the drawingboard. When that is done, applications } can start using this feature as well (libdialog comes to mind)... } } Have fun... } } -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- } Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team } So much code to hack -- so little time. }-- End of excerpt from sos@freebsd.org Exellent!! I've wanted this for quite awhile. One suggestion, could paste button be changed to the middle button for mouse systems compatable mice? Similar to standard X config. -- Charles Green, PRC Inc. UN*X System Administration 22 Powell Ave. Apt. B UN*X Security & Whitesboro, NY 13492 Programming From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 07:03:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16604 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [144.206.136.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA16592 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA09318 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:01:14 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Fri, 21 Jun 96 17:01:14 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA00505; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:50:08 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199606211350.RAA00505@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: Syscons and X To: fcurrent@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:50:07 +0400 (MSD) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606201310.NAA01645@jraynard.demon.co.uk> from "James Raynard" at "Jun 20, 96 01:10:13 pm" From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (Andrey A. Chernov) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've recently switched back to using syscons after successfully > running pcvt for several months and have noticed something strange. > > Sometimes when I quit X and type anything at the console, any keys > that I press seem to be read as if I were holding the control key > down, eg if I press 'p', the last command I typed appears at the > prompt, pressing 'l' clears the screen and 'd' logs me out! It is known error in syscons, Alt and Ctrl keys sticks after switching from X screen. Press Alt and Ctrl yet one time to unstick them. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 07:54:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA18973 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA18968; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA01644; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:54:16 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA04115; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606211454.HAA04115@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Andreas Klemm cc: Terry Lambert , phk@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 21 Jun 96 13:37:47 +0200. Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:54:10 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Bring back in mind: KISS > "Keep It Small and Simple" I thought that was "Keep It Simple Stupid". Small and Simple is probably better advice. But I think the latter has a better ring to it. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 08:08:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19521 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [144.206.136.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA19467; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA02184 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:06:24 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Fri, 21 Jun 96 18:06:23 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01110; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:52:26 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199606211452.SAA01110@nagual.ru> Subject: Re: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... To: sos@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:52:26 +0400 (MSD) Cc: mark@grondar.za, current@freebsd.org, peter@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606211154.NAA15737@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at "Jun 21, 96 01:54:00 pm" From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (Andrey A. Chernov) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What would be nice though, was that libdialog was "mouse aware" so > you could click on buttons etc with the mouse... Latest ncurses IS mouse-aware somehow, Peter holds them now, ask him when he will be ready for commit. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 08:46:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20976 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20969 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uX8PU-0004KBC; Fri, 21 Jun 96 08:46 PDT Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:46:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: Andreas Klemm cc: Terry Lambert , Nate Williams , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: > Generally I share your sight, but even SunSofts Solaris 2.x uses > tk in the main system... Uh, no... Solaris uses Motif for installation, etc.. TCL and Tk are a product of SunLabs, yes, but they haven't seen fit to include either into Solaris (at least, not as of Solaris 2.5). ---Jake From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 09:37:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22863 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22856 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA18436; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:33:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606211633.JAA18436@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way To: andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:33:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Andreas Klemm" at Jun 21, 96 07:21:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'm against the inclusion of TCL in the main line source tree > > for the same reason that I don't believe an "add user" script should > > be written in PERL: because it limits the reusuability of the code > > by blurring its boundries to the point that the algorithm is not > > fundamentally seperable from the interface implementation. > > Generally I share your sight, but even SunSofts Solaris 2.x uses > tk in the main system... If all the System V vendors jumped off a cliff... ? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 10:19:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25559 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25549; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA18562; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:15:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606211715.KAA18562@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... To: ache@nagual.ru (=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:15:15 -0700 (MST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.ORG, mark@grondar.za, current@FreeBSD.ORG, peter@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606211452.SAA01110@nagual.ru> from "=?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?=" at Jun 21, 96 06:52:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > What would be nice though, was that libdialog was "mouse aware" so > > you could click on buttons etc with the mouse... > > Latest ncurses IS mouse-aware somehow, Peter holds them now, > ask him when he will be ready for commit. Click events are stuffed into the input queue after they are turned on with an escape squence to the xterm. This could work with several termcap mods and a "click event" mod to the code. In general, cut&paste and click reporting in a window can not be active simultaneously. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 10:43:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00321 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tijuca.ravel.ufrj.br (tijuca.ravel.ufrj.br [146.164.32.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00305 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rodolfo@localhost) by tijuca.ravel.ufrj.br (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA01028 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 14:41:22 -0300 (EST) From: Rodolfo Heitor Gevaerd de Faria Message-Id: <199606211741.OAA01028@tijuca.ravel.ufrj.br> Subject: NFS problems To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 14:41:22 -0300 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've got a problem with the mountd hanging my machine. I export some directory to another machine in my network and it mounts ok but when I access the directory (ls /export) my FreeBSD machine (who is doing the export) just reboots. I have an 2.2SNAP-960501 in a Pentium 100 (ALI-chipset) machine. I just export a directory to a Sparc 5 machine with Solaris 2.5. I then change the exports file to mount on another machine (an OS/2 Warp) and the mount seems to work normally. What I would like to know if this there really was a problem in the NFS code in the 960501-SNAP, and if I upgrade to a newer SNAP the problem will be solved..? Thanks for any help. Rodolfo H G Faria From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 10:45:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00549 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from remote.transarc.com (remote.transarc.com [158.98.16.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00544 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by remote.transarc.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA12663; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:44:10 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:44:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Barron To: current@freebsd.org Subject: This whole TCL mess Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm just now catching up on mail from Wednesday, so forgive if this has gotten stale by now ... (and I just ran a sup for the first time in a week or two, so I'm seeing what people are talking about) My own opinion is that if TCL is not bmake-converted, it shouldn't be in the source tree. In fact, I really would rather see TCL just kicked out of the base source tree entirely and left as a port - the base source tree is just too darn big already. My $.02, and worth every penny ... :-) --Pat. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 11:52:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA13115 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gdi.uoregon.edu (cisco-ts6-line15.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA13095 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwhite@localhost) by gdi.uoregon.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00258; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:51:57 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:51:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White Reply-To: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu To: Mr Operating System cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /usr/ports/secure/pidentd In-Reply-To: <199606192036.XAA04987@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Mr Operating System wrote: > >> Couldn't fetch it - please try to retreive this > >> port manually into /usr/ports/distfiles/ and try again. Go onto the CD or ftp.freebsd.org into ports/distfiles, download pidentd* (whatever the file is), put it in your /usr/ports/distfiles, and remake. The port is out of date. Doug White | University of Oregon Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 13:22:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA24824 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA24802 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA13429 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:22:20 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA11177 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:22:20 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA22767 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:11:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606212011.WAA22767@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD-current users) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:11:01 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606210659.XAA01100@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at "Jun 20, 96 11:59:17 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > I would hope so. Since I write my NetBSD CD-ROMs on a DOS box, and > they read just fine when I get them home. It just wish it wouldn't > truncate the *$&($*# filenames. Use BSD to write'em. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 16:18:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11395 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11366 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id BAA22090; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 01:00:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA00389; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:27:52 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:27:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: Jake Hamby cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > > Generally I share your sight, but even SunSofts Solaris 2.x uses > > tk in the main system... > > Uh, no... Solaris uses Motif for installation, etc.. TCL and Tk are a > product of SunLabs, yes, but they haven't seen fit to include either into > Solaris (at least, not as of Solaris 2.5). Hmm, I thought, that many sysadmin tools were written in tk... admintool, swmtool ... Am I so wrong ??? -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 16:42:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA12290 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA12285; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA28920; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:41:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Andreas Klemm cc: Jake Hamby , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:27:52 +0200." Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:41:46 -0700 Message-ID: <28918.835400506@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , Andreas Klem m writes: >On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > >> On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: >> >> > Generally I share your sight, but even SunSofts Solaris 2.x uses >> > tk in the main system... >> >> Uh, no... Solaris uses Motif for installation, etc.. TCL and Tk are a >> product of SunLabs, yes, but they haven't seen fit to include either into >> Solaris (at least, not as of Solaris 2.5). > >Hmm, I thought, that many sysadmin tools were written in tk... >admintool, swmtool ... Am I so wrong ??? no, you are right. Sun were one of the first companies to embrace tcl/tk. They even made an incredibly bogus openwin version of tk. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 17:03:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13024 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA13019; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:02:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA15123; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:02:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:02:47 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606220002.SAA15123@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Andreas Klemm , Jake Hamby , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-Reply-To: <28918.835400506@critter.tfs.com> References: <28918.835400506@critter.tfs.com> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> > Generally I share your sight, but even SunSofts Solaris 2.x uses > >> > tk in the main system... > >> > >> Uh, no... Solaris uses Motif for installation, etc.. TCL and Tk are a > >> product of SunLabs, yes, but they haven't seen fit to include either into > >> Solaris (at least, not as of Solaris 2.5). > > > >Hmm, I thought, that many sysadmin tools were written in tk... > >admintool, swmtool ... Am I so wrong ??? > > no, you are right. No, he was wrong. I've got a Solaris 2.5 box sitting *right here*, and all of the tool program are binaries and have *NO* TK strings in them. Sun *does* support TCL in a very direct sense because they hired Dr. Ousterhout and he has a staff of 3-4 folks working for him, but as of Solaris 2.5 (the most recent release) there is *NO* trace of TK anywhere on the system. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 17:07:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13195 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA13189; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uXGEY-0004JeC; Fri, 21 Jun 96 17:07 PDT Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:07:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Andreas Klemm , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-Reply-To: <28918.835400506@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Andreas Klemm wrote: > >> > >> > Generally I share your sight, but even SunSofts Solaris 2.x uses > >> > tk in the main system... > >> > >> Uh, no... Solaris uses Motif for installation, etc.. TCL and Tk are a > >> product of SunLabs, yes, but they haven't seen fit to include either into > >> Solaris (at least, not as of Solaris 2.5). > > > >Hmm, I thought, that many sysadmin tools were written in tk... > >admintool, swmtool ... Am I so wrong ??? > > no, you are right. Sun were one of the first companies to embrace > tcl/tk. They even made an incredibly bogus openwin version of tk. Whoa, Poul, I think you are wrong, at least as far as Solaris 2.5. Maybe originally they used TCL/Tk, but in Solaris 2.3, admintool was pure OPEN LOOK, and as of Solaris 2.4, it was Motif. Herewith, the proof: # uname -a SunOS aris 5.5 Generic_103093-02 sun4m sparc SUNW,SPARCstation-20 # ldd /usr/bin/admintool libprinter.so.2 => /usr/snadm/lib/libprinter.so.2 libserial.so.2 => /usr/snadm/lib/libserial.so.2 libadmldb.so.2 => /usr/snadm/lib/libadmldb.so.2 libadmutil.so.2 => /usr/snadm/lib/libadmutil.so.2 libadmapp.so.2 => /usr/snadm/lib/libadmapp.so.2 libmp.so.1 => /usr/lib/libmp.so.1 libsocket.so.1 => /usr/lib/libsocket.so.1 libnsl.so.1 => /usr/lib/libnsl.so.1 libinstall.so.2 => /usr/snadm/lib/libinstall.so.2 libsw.so.2 => /usr/snadm/lib/libsw.so.2 libadm.so.1 => /usr/lib/libadm.so.1 libXm.so.3 => /usr/dt/lib/libXm.so.3 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ libXt.so.4 => /usr/lib/libXt.so.4 libX11.so.4 => /usr/lib/libX11.so.4 libc.so.1 => /usr/lib/libc.so.1 libkvm.so.1 => /usr/lib/libkvm.so.1 libdl.so.1 => /usr/lib/libdl.so.1 libintl.so.1 => /usr/lib/libintl.so.1 libelf.so.1 => /usr/lib/libelf.so.1 libXext.so.0 => /usr/openwin/lib/libXext.so.0 libw.so.1 => /usr/lib/libw.so.1 See /usr/dt/lib/libXm.so.3 in that mess above? If they're using Motif, they can't also be using Tk! And I saw nothing in my casual inspection of all those /usr/snadm/lib shared libraries to suspect that TCL is linked in either. So where exactly is this supposed TCL/Tk? Certainly not in Solaris 2.4 or 2.5! ---Jake From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 17:58:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA15329 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA15314; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA00989; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:58:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: Andreas Klemm , Jake Hamby , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:02:47 MDT." <199606220002.SAA15123@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:58:03 -0700 Message-ID: <987.835405083@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >Hmm, I thought, that many sysadmin tools were written in tk... >> >admintool, swmtool ... Am I so wrong ??? >> >> no, you are right. > >No, he was wrong. I've got a Solaris 2.5 box sitting *right here*, and >all of the tool program are binaries and have *NO* TK strings in them. > well, on 2.4 they were... >Sun *does* support TCL in a very direct sense because they hired >Dr. Ousterhout and he has a staff of 3-4 folks working for him, but as >of Solaris 2.5 (the most recent release) there is *NO* trace of TK >anywhere on the system. It's probably Java :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 18:09:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA15721 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-143.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.143]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15715; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA07938; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:10:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606211810.UAA07938@vector.jhs.no_domain> X-Authentication-Warning: vector.jhs.no_domain: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Nate Williams Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:00:29 MDT." <199606202200.QAA11554@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:10:54 +0200 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: Nate Williams > Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. > > The FreeBSD Project is *NOT* a democracy, True > and never will be. Many shades of grey available between democracy & autocracy, each with advantages & disadvantages, I'd like to see the slide to autocracy reversed. > Hinting that it be that way is pure foolishness. Ask for nothing, get nothing, ... etc. > If you want something done, *DO IT YOURSELF*. Writing code is _easy_, getting it _committed_ is the hard bit, nothing I can do about that, just keep posting, then give up, & file each bit in parallel src & ports trees, ( I've recently made these trees of patches & extra bits available under http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/src/ ). EG: ports/mail/exmh: waiting 6 months, there were some imperfect bits, since fixed, version upgraded, still waiting... EG vi + chimera + ghostview diffs to implement a Wysiwig sort of thing, they add extra functionality, they're small, they do no harm ... Coding is easy, getting things committed is far far harder. > Even though I disagree with Poul's recent > TCL stuff, at least he did something. I should have initially changed my Subject: to indicate a new thread, I wasn't refering to Poul's tcl episode, that's a complex hot topic I'm steering clear off :-) > 'Nuff said, time for some gophers to *DIE*!!!!! Umm .. Err Montana still ? ... Have a nice day ... & I wish the gophers a clean shot & a painless quick kill ! .... gulp ;-) Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 18:10:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA15803 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15798; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01010; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:10:19 -0700 (PDT) To: Jake Hamby cc: Andreas Klemm , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Jun 1996 17:07:25 PDT." Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:10:18 -0700 Message-ID: <1008.835405818@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tell he what this is then ? Poul-Henning dgbcc0# uname -a SunOS dgbcc0 5.4 brutus_[on494-patch]_06/15/95 sun4m sparc dgbcc0# file /usr/snadm/classes/admintool/display.t /usr/snadm/classes/admintool/display.t: ascii text dgbcc0# tail /usr/snadm/classes/admintool/display.t execution_host \ } ###### source [where_am_i]/help_msgs_util.t source [where_am_i]/misc_util.t source [where_am_i]/window_util.t source [where_am_i]/main.t dgbcc0# -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 18:11:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA15874 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-143.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.143]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15862; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA14192; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:25:39 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606202325.BAA14192@vector.jhs.no_domain> X-Authentication-Warning: vector.jhs.no_domain: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: FreeBSD current Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:31:41 +0200." <199606192231.AAA00578@campa.panke.de> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:25:38 +0200 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: Wolfram Schneider > Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider > Subject: Re: When gcc-2.7.2 hits ctm > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:31:41 +0200 > Message-id: <199606192231.AAA00578@campa.panke.de> > > > I completely agree! The mailbombs cost me real money. If FreeBSD > continued sending mailbombs I will unsubscribe ctm-cvs. Yes, the mail bombs are really unfortunate, it cost me during mid-morning business prime time :-( ( I normally download after 21:00, but knew I had some real human origin email buried in among all the ctm's) I really like CTM service, & would hate to lose it, so reckon I'll need to demerge my ctm subscriptions from my human mail address so I can download mega-lumps evenings cheap rate, & human mail when I need it. I guess if mail bombs are to continue, it'll induce a rash of people mailing root@freefall & other places soon, saying "can I have a 2nd login for gzip & ftp'ing my ctm mbox, Plse" PS Another FreeBSD guy in my city was equally indignant too, he pays the same Deutsche Telekom monopoly :-( Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 18:49:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA17322 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17314; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id SAA23799 ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:49:19 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA15308; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:48:03 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:48:03 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606220148.TAA15308@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-Reply-To: <1008.835405818@critter.tfs.com> References: <1008.835405818@critter.tfs.com> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > Tell he what this is then ? > > Poul-Henning > dgbcc0# uname -a > SunOS dgbcc0 5.4 brutus_[on494-patch]_06/15/95 sun4m sparc > dgbcc0# file /usr/snadm/classes/admintool/display.t > /usr/snadm/classes/admintool/display.t: ascii text > dgbcc0# tail /usr/snadm/classes/admintool/display.t > execution_host \ > } ultra:/usr/snadm/classes # uname -a SunOS ultra.sri.MT.net 5.5 Generic_103093-02 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1 ultra:/usr/snadm/classes # ls -l total 2 drwxr-xr-x 3 bin bin 512 Apr 17 10:10 locale/ drwxr-xr-x 2 bin bin 512 Apr 17 10:10 system.2.1/ They quit using it then. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 18:55:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA17682 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA17677; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA15338; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:55:30 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:55:30 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606220155.TAA15338@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: Nate Williams , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606211810.UAA07938@vector.jhs.no_domain> References: <199606202200.QAA11554@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606211810.UAA07938@vector.jhs.no_domain> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If you want something done, *DO IT YOURSELF*. > > Writing code is _easy_, getting it _committed_ is the hard bit, nothing > I can do about that, just keep posting, then give up, & file each bit > in parallel src & ports trees, ( I've recently made these trees of patches > & extra bits available under http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/src/ ). I'm glad you sent them via proper channels (NOT!). I've not seem them on bugs or via send-pr. > EG: ports/mail/exmh: waiting 6 months, there were some imperfect bits, > since fixed, version upgraded, still waiting... > > EG vi + chimera + ghostview diffs to implement a Wysiwig sort of thing, > they add extra functionality, they're small, they do no harm ... But all of these are code we get from outside vendors. If you want it added to them, get the vendor to add it first. Bugfixes get added when they are reviewed, new features get added *IF* the original vendor integrates them and/or they are critical to FreeBSD. > Coding is easy, getting things committed is far far harder. Especially given that it's more difficult to figure out what you're attempting to do. I just looked through your 'submissions' and it's not obvious *what* you're fixing, and if they are indeed fixes. Complaining that you're code doesn't get integrated when you make it *hard* to find it, figure out what it does, and then the changes aren't even for code we maintain. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 19:19:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18833 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA18819 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA24934 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:19:31 -0700 (PDT) To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:19:31 -0700 Message-ID: <24932.835409971@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I sat down this morning with the intention that /usr/obj change its spots before sundown and it looks like I made it with time to spare. Actually, I was surprised at how easy this was and, if anything, I took away more than I added. These files clearly haven't been seriously looked at for awhile, and there were all sorts of redundant .USE macros, missing SUBDIR checks (which probably worked only because we never pushed it) and altogether dusty artifacts from the various "ages" of FreeBSD's build system. Anyway, so I cleaned it up and changed things so that make and the mk macros now support the following paradigm: The MAKEOBJDIR environment variable controls the root of the obj tree, which is by default /usr/obj. ${.CURDIR} always points to the source, ${.OBJDIR} always points to ${MAKEOBJDIR}/${.CURDIR} (essentially). ${.CURDIR} and ${.OBJDIR} never point to the same location. if ${.OBJDIR} exists when make starts, it chdir()s to that location before doing anything else (same as before). I didn't like having to beat on make, but the changes I made to it were very minor and vastly simplified the task of locating the object dir location for a corresponding source (something that was done with some truly gross sed hackery before). None of the existing functionality of /usr/obj has been lost. The obj target now basically does nothing more than create ${.OBJDIR} and the cleandir target blows it away again if it exists. In all scenarios, if ${.OBJDIR} does not exist then everything happens transparently in ${.CURDIR} instead. I haven't tried burning a CD of /usr/src and doing a make world in it yet, but that's my next project. Barring any modules which always stomped /usr/src in the past, it should even work. In case you ISPs out there haven't twigged to the significance of this yet either, with these changes you can now keep a single copy of /usr/src up to date for any number of machines, having simultaneous `make worlds' run from a single NFS mounted source partition on multiple clients with none of the mutual interferance problems we have now. That's why *I* wanted this feature, anyway! :-) If people could help me test this a little, it would be much appreciated. The process of conversion is very easy, assuming that you have a /usr/src (or wherever you keep it) which is reasonably -current: 1. cd /usr/src 2. make cleandir 3. patch -p0 < my-diffs 4. cd usr.bin/make; make all install; cd ../.. 5. cd share/mk; make install; cd ../.. 6. remove tcl from /usr/src/lib/Makefile - it doesn't work with this new system and is going to change substantially enough in the near future that it's not worth converting. Now build the world. Before you start, you can also do a: touch /usr/src/hithere And then do: find /usr/src -newer /usr/src/hithere after your build to see if anything at all in /usr/src was touched. There shouldn't have been, but I haven't finished my own checks yet so let me know if you encounter anything. Thanks! Jordan Unidiffs: --- Index: Makefile =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/Makefile,v retrieving revision 1.83 diff -u -r1.83 Makefile --- Makefile 1996/06/20 18:47:04 1.83 +++ Makefile 1996/06/22 00:16:14 @@ -1,5 +1,5 @@ # -# $Id$ +# $Id: Makefile,v 1.83 1996/06/20 18:47:04 jkh Exp $ # # Make command line options: # -DCLOBBER will remove /usr/include @@ -132,7 +132,7 @@ @echo " Reinstall ${DESTDIR} The whole thing" @echo "--------------------------------------------------------------" @echo - ${MAKE} install + cd ${.CURDIR} && ${MAKE} install cd ${.CURDIR}/share/man && ${MAKE} makedb hierarchy: @@ -166,25 +166,8 @@ @echo "--------------------------------------------------------------" @echo " Cleaning up the source tree, and rebuilding the obj tree" @echo "--------------------------------------------------------------" - @echo - here=`pwd`; dest=/usr/obj`echo $$here | sed 's,^/usr/src,,'`; \ - if test -d /usr/obj -a ! -d $$dest; then \ - mkdir -p $$dest; \ - else \ - true; \ - fi; \ - cd $$dest && rm -rf ${SUBDIR} - find . -name obj | xargs rm -rf -.if defined(MAKE_LOCAL) & exists(local) & exists(local/Makefile) - # The cd is done as local may well be a symbolic link - -cd local && find . -name obj | xargs rm -rf -.endif -.if defined(MAKE_PORTS) & exists(ports) & exists(ports/Makefile) - # The cd is done as local may well be a symbolic link - -cd ports && find . -name obj | xargs rm -rf -.endif - ${MAKE} cleandir - ${MAKE} obj + cd ${.CURDIR} && ${MAKE} cleandir + cd ${.CURDIR} && ${MAKE} obj .endif installmost: @@ -229,7 +212,7 @@ @echo "--------------------------------------------------------------" @echo " Rebuilding ${DESTDIR}/usr/share/mk" @echo "--------------------------------------------------------------" - cd ${.CURDIR}/share/mk && ${MAKE} install + cd ${.CURDIR}/share/mk && ${MAKE} install includes: @echo "--------------------------------------------------------------" #ifndef lint Index: share/mk/Makefile =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/Makefile,v retrieving revision 1.10 diff -u -r1.10 Makefile --- Makefile 1996/04/12 11:13:29 1.10 +++ Makefile 1996/06/21 21:50:19 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -# $Id$ +# $Id: Makefile,v 1.10 1996/04/12 11:13:29 wosch Exp $ # From: @(#)Makefile 8.1 (Berkeley) 6/8/93 FILES= bsd.README @@ -11,7 +11,7 @@ all clean cleandir depend lint tags: afterinstall: - ${INSTALL} -c -o ${BINOWN} -g ${BINGRP} -m 444 ${FILES} \ + cd ${.CURDIR} && ${INSTALL} -c -o ${BINOWN} -g ${BINGRP} -m 444 ${FILES} \ ${DESTDIR}${BINDIR}/mk .include Index: share/mk/bsd.dep.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.dep.mk,v retrieving revision 1.4 diff -u -r1.4 bsd.dep.mk --- bsd.dep.mk 1996/05/25 23:09:46 1.4 +++ bsd.dep.mk 1996/06/22 01:08:09 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.dep.mk,v 1.4 1996/05/25 23:09:46 wosch Exp $ # # The include file handles Makefile dependencies. # @@ -33,7 +33,7 @@ # some of the rules involve .h sources, so remove them from mkdep line .if !target(depend) -depend: beforedepend ${DEPENDFILE} afterdepend ${_DEPSUBDIR} +depend: beforedepend ${DEPENDFILE} afterdepend _SUBDIR .if defined(SRCS) # .if defined ${SRCS:M*.[sS]} does not work @@ -58,7 +58,7 @@ .endif .else -${DEPENDFILE}: ${_DEPSUBDIR} +${DEPENDFILE}: _SUBDIR .endif .if !target(beforedepend) beforedepend: @@ -70,17 +70,33 @@ .if !target(tags) .if defined(SRCS) -tags: ${SRCS} +tags: ${SRCS} _SUBDIR -cd ${.CURDIR}; ctags -f /dev/stdout ${.ALLSRC:N*.h} | \ sed "s;\${.CURDIR}/;;" > tags .else -tags: +tags: _SUBDIR .endif .endif .if defined(SRCS) -clean: -cleandir: cleandepend -cleandepend: - rm -f ${DEPENDFILE} ${.CURDIR}/tags +.if !target(clean) +clean: _SUBDIR +.endif +.if !target(cleandepend) +cleandepend: _SUBDIR + rm -f ${DEPENDFILE} tags +.endif +.endif + +_SUBDIR: .USE +.if defined(SUBDIR) && !empty(SUBDIR) + @for entry in ${SUBDIR}; do \ + (${ECHODIR} "===> ${DIRPRFX}$$entry"; \ + if test -d ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}.${MACHINE}; then \ + cd ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}.${MACHINE}; \ + else \ + cd ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}; \ + fi; \ + ${MAKE} ${.TARGET:S/realinstall/install/:S/.depend/depend/} DIRPRFX=${DIRPRFX}$$entry/); \ + done .endif Index: share/mk/bsd.doc.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.doc.mk,v retrieving revision 1.24 diff -u -r1.24 bsd.doc.mk --- bsd.doc.mk 1996/03/09 23:48:53 1.24 +++ bsd.doc.mk 1996/06/21 23:46:57 @@ -1,5 +1,5 @@ # from: @(#)bsd.doc.mk 5.3 (Berkeley) 1/2/91 -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.doc.mk,v 1.24 1996/03/09 23:48:53 wosch Exp $ PRINTER?= ascii @@ -70,29 +70,10 @@ .endif .endif -.if !target(obj) -.if defined(NOOBJ) -obj: -.else -obj: - @cd ${.CURDIR}; rm -f obj; \ - here=`pwd`; dest=/usr/obj`echo $$here | sed 's,^/usr/src,,'`; \ - ${ECHO} "$$here -> $$dest"; ln -s $$dest obj; \ - if test -d /usr/obj -a ! -d $$dest; then \ - mkdir -p $$dest; \ - else \ - true; \ - fi; -.endif -.endif - clean: rm -f ${DOC}.${PRINTER} ${DOC}.ps ${DOC}.ascii \ ${DOC}.ps.gz ${DOC}.ascii.gz Errs errs mklog ${CLEANFILES} -cleandir: clean - cd ${.CURDIR}; rm -rf obj - FILES?= ${SRCS} realinstall: @if [ ! -d "${DESTDIR}${BINDIR}/${VOLUME}" ]; then \ @@ -151,10 +132,11 @@ .if !target(depend) depend: - .endif .if !target(maninstall) maninstall: - .endif + +.include +.include Index: share/mk/bsd.info.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.info.mk,v retrieving revision 1.17 diff -u -r1.17 bsd.info.mk --- bsd.info.mk 1996/03/07 23:39:45 1.17 +++ bsd.info.mk 1996/06/21 23:25:17 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.info.mk,v 1.17 1996/03/07 23:39:45 wosch Exp $ BINMODE= 444 BINDIR?= /usr/share/info @@ -17,10 +17,10 @@ .if !defined(NOINFOCOMPRESS) IFILES= ${INFO:S/$/.info.gz/g} -all: ${IFILES} +all: ${IFILES} _SUBDIR .else IFILES= ${INFO:S/$/.info/g} -all: ${IFILES} +all: ${IFILES} _SUBDIR .endif GZIPCMD?= gzip @@ -37,7 +37,7 @@ .endif .if !target(distribute) -distribute: +distribute: _SUBDIR cd ${.CURDIR} ; $(MAKE) install DESTDIR=${DISTDIR}/${DISTRIBUTION} SHARED=copies .endif @@ -46,32 +46,13 @@ ${MAKEINFO} ${MAKEINFOFLAGS} -I ${.CURDIR} ${SRCS:S/^/${.CURDIR}\//g} -o ${INFO}.info .endif -depend: +depend: _SUBDIR @echo -n -.if !target(obj) -.if defined(NOOBJ) -obj: -.else -obj: - @cd ${.CURDIR}; rm -f obj; \ - here=`pwd`; dest=/usr/obj`echo $$here | sed 's,^/usr/src,,'`; \ - ${ECHO} "$$here -> $$dest"; ln -s $$dest obj; \ - if test -d /usr/obj -a ! -d $$dest; then \ - mkdir -p $$dest; \ - else \ - true; \ - fi; -.endif -.endif - -clean: +clean: _SUBDIR rm -f ${INFO:S/$/.info*/g} Errs errs mklog ${CLEANFILES} -cleandir: clean - cd ${.CURDIR}; rm -rf obj - -install: +install: _SUBDIR @if [ ! -d "${DESTDIR}${BINDIR}" ]; then \ /bin/rm -f ${DESTDIR}${BINDIR} ; \ mkdir -p ${DESTDIR}${BINDIR} ; \ @@ -84,6 +65,8 @@ ${IFILES} ${DESTDIR}${BINDIR} .if !target(maninstall) -maninstall: - +maninstall: _SUBDIR .endif + +.include +.include Index: share/mk/bsd.kmod.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.kmod.mk,v retrieving revision 1.22 diff -u -r1.22 bsd.kmod.mk --- bsd.kmod.mk 1996/06/17 15:11:10 1.22 +++ bsd.kmod.mk 1996/06/21 23:28:00 @@ -1,5 +1,5 @@ # From: @(#)bsd.prog.mk 5.26 (Berkeley) 6/25/91 -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.kmod.mk,v 1.22 1996/06/17 15:11:10 bde Exp $ # # The include file handles installing Loadable Kernel Modules. # includes the file named "../Makefile.inc" if it exists, @@ -134,25 +134,12 @@ .endif .elif !target(maninstall) -maninstall: +maninstall: _SUBDIR all-man: .endif -_PROGSUBDIR: .USE -.if defined(SUBDIR) && !empty(SUBDIR) - @for entry in ${SUBDIR}; do \ - (${ECHODIR} "===> $$entry"; \ - if test -d ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}.${MACHINE}; then \ - cd ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}.${MACHINE}; \ - else \ - cd ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}; \ - fi; \ - ${MAKE} ${.TARGET:S/realinstall/install/:S/.depend/depend/}); \ - done -.endif - .MAIN: all -all: ${PROG} all-man _PROGSUBDIR +all: ${PROG} all-man _SUBDIR CLEANFILES+=${PROG} ${OBJS} @@ -164,7 +151,7 @@ afterinstall: .endif -realinstall: _PROGSUBDIR +realinstall: _SUBDIR ${INSTALL} ${COPY} -o ${KMODOWN} -g ${KMODGRP} -m ${KMODMODE} \ ${INSTALLFLAGS} ${PROG} ${DESTDIR}${KMODDIR} .if defined(LINKS) && !empty(LINKS) @@ -180,7 +167,7 @@ done; true .endif -install: afterinstall +install: afterinstall _SUBDIR .if !defined(NOMAN) afterinstall: realinstall maninstall .else @@ -191,12 +178,12 @@ DISTRIBUTION?= bin .if !target(distribute) -distribute: +distribute: _SUBDIR cd ${.CURDIR} ; $(MAKE) install DESTDIR=${DISTDIR}/${DISTRIBUTION} SHARED=copies .endif .if !target(tags) -tags: ${SRCS} _PROGSUBDIR +tags: ${SRCS} _SUBDIR .if defined(PROG) -cd ${.CURDIR}; ctags -f /dev/stdout ${.ALLSRC} | \ sed "s;\${.CURDIR}/;;" > tags @@ -221,8 +208,5 @@ ./vnode_if.h: vnode_if.h -_DEPSUBDIR= _PROGSUBDIR -_SUBDIRUSE: _PROGSUBDIR -.include .include - +.include Index: share/mk/bsd.lib.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.lib.mk,v retrieving revision 1.35 diff -u -r1.35 bsd.lib.mk --- bsd.lib.mk 1996/06/17 15:59:51 1.35 +++ bsd.lib.mk 1996/06/21 23:44:58 @@ -1,5 +1,5 @@ # from: @(#)bsd.lib.mk 5.26 (Berkeley) 5/2/91 -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.lib.mk,v 1.35 1996/06/17 15:59:51 phk Exp $ # .if exists(${.CURDIR}/../Makefile.inc) @@ -124,20 +124,7 @@ PICFLAG=-fpic .endif -_LIBSUBDIR: .USE -.if defined(SUBDIR) && !empty(SUBDIR) - @for entry in ${SUBDIR}; do \ - (${ECHODIR} "===> ${DIRPRFX}$$entry"; \ - if test -d ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}.${MACHINE}; then \ - cd ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}.${MACHINE}; \ - else \ - cd ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}; \ - fi; \ - ${MAKE} ${.TARGET:S/realinstall/install/:S/.depend/depend/} DIRPRFX=${DIRPRFX}$$entry/); \ - done -.endif - -all: ${_LIBS} all-man _LIBSUBDIR # llib-l${LIB}.ln +all: ${_LIBS} all-man _SUBDIR # llib-l${LIB}.ln OBJS+= ${SRCS:N*.h:R:S/$/.o/g} @@ -184,29 +171,15 @@ ${LINT} -C${LIB} ${CFLAGS} ${.ALLSRC:M*.c} .if !target(clean) -clean: _LIBSUBDIR - rm -f a.out Errs errs mklog ${CLEANFILES} ${OBJS} - rm -f lib${LIB}.a llib-l${LIB}.ln - rm -f ${POBJS} profiled/*.o lib${LIB}_p.a - rm -f ${SOBJS} shared/*.o - rm -f lib${LIB}.so.*.* lib${LIB}_pic.a -.if defined(CLEANDIRS) - rm -rf ${CLEANDIRS} -.endif -.endif - -.if !target(cleandir) -cleandir: _LIBSUBDIR +clean: _SUBDIR rm -f a.out Errs errs mklog ${CLEANFILES} ${OBJS} rm -f lib${LIB}.a llib-l${LIB}.ln - rm -f ${.CURDIR}/tags .depend rm -f ${POBJS} profiled/*.o lib${LIB}_p.a rm -f ${SOBJS} shared/*.o rm -f lib${LIB}.so.*.* lib${LIB}_pic.a .if defined(CLEANDIRS) rm -rf ${CLEANDIRS} .endif - cd ${.CURDIR}; rm -rf obj; .endif .if defined(SRCS) @@ -259,7 +232,7 @@ done; true .endif -install: afterinstall _LIBSUBDIR +install: afterinstall _SUBDIR .if !defined(NOMAN) afterinstall: realinstall maninstall .else @@ -269,7 +242,7 @@ DISTRIBUTION?= bin .if !target(distribute) -distribute: _LIBSUBDIR +distribute: _SUBDIR cd ${.CURDIR} ; $(MAKE) install DESTDIR=${DISTDIR}/${DISTRIBUTION} SHARED=copies .endif @@ -278,7 +251,7 @@ .endif .if !target(tags) -tags: ${SRCS} +tags: ${SRCS} _SUBDIR -cd ${.CURDIR}; ctags -f /dev/stdout ${.ALLSRC:M*.c} | \ sed "s;\${.CURDIR}/;;" > tags .endif @@ -290,21 +263,5 @@ all-man: .endif -.if !target(obj) -.if defined(NOOBJ) -obj: _LIBSUBDIR -.else -obj: _LIBSUBDIR - @cd ${.CURDIR}; rm -rf obj; \ - here=`pwd`; dest=/usr/obj`echo $$here | sed 's,^/usr/src,,'`; \ - ${ECHO} "$$here -> $$dest"; ln -s $$dest obj; \ - if test -d /usr/obj -a ! -d $$dest; then \ - mkdir -p $$dest; \ - else \ - true; \ - fi; -.endif -.endif - -_DEPSUBDIR= _LIBSUBDIR .include +.include Index: share/mk/bsd.man.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.man.mk,v retrieving revision 1.12 diff -u -r1.12 bsd.man.mk --- bsd.man.mk 1996/05/25 23:09:48 1.12 +++ bsd.man.mk 1996/05/25 23:09:48 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.man.mk,v 1.12 1996/05/25 23:09:48 wosch Exp $ # # The include file handles installing manual pages and # their links. includes the file named "../Makefile.inc" Index: share/mk/bsd.obj.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.obj.mk,v retrieving revision 1.4 diff -u -r1.4 bsd.obj.mk --- bsd.obj.mk 1996/05/27 23:05:54 1.4 +++ bsd.obj.mk 1996/06/22 01:11:25 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.obj.mk,v 1.4 1996/05/27 23:05:54 wosch Exp $ # # The include file handles creating 'obj' directory # and cleaning up object files, log files etc. @@ -6,25 +6,16 @@ # # +++ variables +++ # -# BSDSRCDIR The real path to the system sources, so that 'make obj' -# will work correctly. [/usr/src] -# -# BSDOBJDIR The real path to the system 'obj' tree, so that 'make obj' -# will work correctly. [/usr/obj] -# # CLEANFILES Additional files to remove for the clean and cleandir targets. # -# MAKEOBJDIR A file name to the directory where the targets -# are built. Note: MAKEOBJDIR is an *enviroment* variable +# MAKEOBJDIR Specify somewhere other than /usr/obj to root the object +# tree. Note: MAKEOBJDIR is an *enviroment* variable # and does work proper only if set as enviroment variable, # not as global or command line variable! [obj] # -# E.g. use `env MAKEOBJDIR=obj-amd make' +# E.g. use `env MAKEOBJDIR=/somewhere/obj make' # -# NOOBJ Do not create 'obj' directory if defined. [not set] -# -# NOOBJLINK Create 'obj' directory in current directory instead -# a symbolic link to the 'obj' tree if defined. [not set] +# NOOBJ Do not create build directory in object tree. # # # +++ targets +++ @@ -33,67 +24,52 @@ # remove a.out Errs errs mklog ${CLEANFILES} # # cleandir: -# remove all of the files removed by the target clean, -# cleandepend (see bsd.dep.mk) and 'obj' directory. +# remove the build directory (and all its contents) created by obj # # obj: -# create 'obj' directory. +# create build directory. # -.if defined(MAKEOBJDIR) && !empty(MAKEOBJDIR) -__objdir = ${MAKEOBJDIR} -.else - -.if defined(MACHINE) && !empty(MACHINE) -__objdir = obj # obj.${MACHINE} -.else -__objdir = obj -.endif -.endif - - .if !target(obj) .if defined(NOOBJ) obj: .else - -obj: _SUBDIRUSE cleanobj -.if defined(NOOBJLINK) - mkdir ${.CURDIR}/${__objdir} -.else - @if test -d ${BSDOBJDIR}; then \ - cd ${.CURDIR}; here=${.CURDIR}; \ - dest=${BSDOBJDIR}`echo $$here | \ - sed "s,^${BSDSRCDIR},,"`/${__objdir}; \ - ${ECHO} "$$here/${__objdir} -> $$dest"; \ - ln -s $$dest ${__objdir}; \ - if test ! -d $$dest; then \ - mkdir -p $$dest; \ - fi; \ - else \ - ${ECHO} "obj tree \"${BSDOBJDIR}\" does not exist."; \ +obj: _SUBDIR + @if ! test -d ${.OBJDIR}; then \ + ${ECHO} "${.OBJDIR} created for ${.CURDIR}"; \ + mkdir -p ${.OBJDIR}; \ + if ! test -d ${.OBJDIR}; then \ + ${ECHO} "Unable to create ${.OBJDIR}."; \ + exit 1; \ + fi; \ fi .endif .endif -.endif # # cleanup # -cleanobj: - rm -f -r ${.CURDIR}/${__objdir} +cleanobj: + @if [ -d ${.OBJDIR} ]; then \ + rm -rf ${.OBJDIR}; \ + else \ + cd ${.CURDIR} && ${MAKE} clean cleandepend; \ + fi +.if !target(cleanfiles) cleanfiles: rm -f a.out Errs errs mklog ${CLEANFILES} +.endif # see bsd.dep.mk .if !target(cleandepend) cleandepend: + @rm -f .depend .endif .if !target(clean) -clean: _SUBDIRUSE cleanfiles +clean: cleanfiles _SUBDIR .endif -cleandir: _SUBDIRUSE cleanfiles cleandepend cleanobj +cleandir: cleanobj _SUBDIR Index: share/mk/bsd.own.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.own.mk,v retrieving revision 1.6 diff -u -r1.6 bsd.own.mk --- bsd.own.mk 1996/05/25 23:09:49 1.6 +++ bsd.own.mk 1996/06/21 21:42:32 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.own.mk,v 1.6 1996/05/25 23:09:49 wosch Exp $ # # The include file set common variables for owner, # group, mode, and directories. Defaults are in brackets. @@ -6,16 +6,6 @@ # # +++ variables +++ # -# where the system object and source trees are kept; can be configurable -# by the user in case they want them in ~/foosrc and ~/fooobj, for example -# where the system object and source trees are kept; can be configurable -# by the user in case they want them in ~/foosrc and ~/fooobj, for example -# BSDOBJDIR The real path to the system 'obj' tree, so that 'make obj' -# will work correctly. [/usr/obj] -# -# BSDSRCDIR The real path to the system sources, so that 'make obj' -# will work correctly. [/usr/src] -# # DESTDIR Change the tree where the file gets installed. [not set] # # DISTDIR Change the tree where the file for a distribution @@ -115,10 +105,6 @@ # # NLSMODE National Language Support files mode. [${NONBINMODE}] # - - -BSDSRCDIR?= /usr/src -BSDOBJDIR?= /usr/obj # Binaries Index: share/mk/bsd.port.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.port.mk,v retrieving revision 1.212 diff -u -r1.212 bsd.port.mk --- bsd.port.mk 1996/06/20 23:52:45 1.212 +++ bsd.port.mk 1996/06/21 22:29:09 @@ -3,7 +3,7 @@ # bsd.port.mk - 940820 Jordan K. Hubbard. # This file is in the public domain. # -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.port.mk,v 1.212 1996/06/20 23:52:45 jkh Exp $ # # Please view me with 4 column tabs! @@ -210,8 +210,8 @@ # Support for an encapsulation in /usr/src - these are essentially simplied ports # and have a number of defaults we can presume right off the bat. .if defined(SRC_ENCAPSULATION) -.if exists (${.CURDIR}/obj) -WRKDIR=${.CURDIR}/obj +.if exists (${BSDOBJDIR}/${.CURDIR}) +WRKDIR=${BSDOBJDIR}/${.CURDIR} .else NO_WRKDIR= yes .endif @@ -226,28 +226,7 @@ # Finally, give us working obj and cleandir targets to make us more compatible # with "traditional" /usr/src ports. -.if !target(obj) -.if defined(NOOBJ) -obj: - @${DO_NADA} -.else -obj: - @cd ${.CURDIR}; rm -rf obj; here=`pwd`; \ - dest=/usr/obj`echo $$here | sed 's,^/usr/src,,'`; ${ECHO} "$$here -> $$dest"; \ - ln -s $$dest obj; if test -d /usr/obj -a ! -d $$dest; then mkdir -p $$dest; fi -.endif -.endif - -.if !target(cleandir) -.if defined(NOCLEANDIR) -cleandir: - @${DO_NADA} -.else -cleandir: clean - @if [ "${WRKDIR}" != "${.CURDIR}" ]; then ${RM} -rf ${WRKDIR}/; fi - @rm -f ${.CURDIR}/obj -.endif -.endif +.include .if !target(distribute) distribute: @@ -1002,7 +981,7 @@ .if !target(clean) clean: pre-clean @${ECHO_MSG} "===> Cleaning for ${PKGNAME}" -.if !defined(NO_WRKDIR) && !exists(${.CURDIR}/obj) +.if !defined(NO_WRKDIR) @${RM} -rf ${WRKDIR} .else @${RM} -f ${WRKDIR}/.*_done Index: share/mk/bsd.prog.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.prog.mk,v retrieving revision 1.32 diff -u -r1.32 bsd.prog.mk --- bsd.prog.mk 1996/06/17 15:59:52 1.32 +++ bsd.prog.mk 1996/06/21 23:40:00 @@ -1,5 +1,5 @@ # from: @(#)bsd.prog.mk 5.26 (Berkeley) 6/25/91 -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.prog.mk,v 1.32 1996/06/17 15:59:52 phk Exp $ .if exists(${.CURDIR}/../Makefile.inc) .include "${.CURDIR}/../Makefile.inc" @@ -129,53 +129,27 @@ .endif .endif -_PROGSUBDIR: .USE -.if defined(SUBDIR) && !empty(SUBDIR) - @for entry in ${SUBDIR}; do \ - (${ECHODIR} "===> ${DIRPRFX}$$entry"; \ - if test -d ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}.${MACHINE}; then \ - cd ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}.${MACHINE}; \ - else \ - cd ${.CURDIR}/$${entry}; \ - fi; \ - ${MAKE} ${.TARGET:S/realinstall/install/:S/.depend/depend/} DIRPRFX=${DIRPRFX}$$entry/); \ - done -.endif - # XXX I think MANDEPEND is only used for groff. It should be named more # generally and perhaps not be in the maninstall dependencies now it is # here (or does maninstall always work when nothing is made?), .MAIN: all -all: ${PROG} all-man _PROGSUBDIR +all: ${PROG} all-man _SUBDIR .if !target(clean) -clean: _PROGSUBDIR +clean: _SUBDIR rm -f a.out Errs errs mklog ${PROG} ${OBJS} ${CLEANFILES} .if defined(CLEANDIRS) rm -rf ${CLEANDIRS} .endif .endif -.if !target(cleandir) -cleandir: _PROGSUBDIR - rm -f a.out Errs errs mklog ${PROG} ${OBJS} ${CLEANFILES} - rm -f ${.CURDIR}/tags .depend -.if defined(CLEANDIRS) - rm -rf ${CLEANDIRS} -.endif - cd ${.CURDIR}; rm -rf obj; -.endif - .if !target(install) .if !target(beforeinstall) beforeinstall: .endif -.if !target(afterinstall) -afterinstall: -.endif -realinstall: _PROGSUBDIR +realinstall: beforeinstall .if defined(PROG) ${INSTALL} ${COPY} ${STRIP} -o ${BINOWN} -g ${BINGRP} -m ${BINMODE} \ ${INSTALLFLAGS} ${PROG} ${DESTDIR}${BINDIR} @@ -197,46 +171,29 @@ done; true .endif -install: afterinstall +install: afterinstall _SUBDIR .if !defined(NOMAN) afterinstall: realinstall maninstall .else afterinstall: realinstall .endif -realinstall: beforeinstall .endif DISTRIBUTION?= bin .if !target(distribute) -distribute: +distribute: _SUBDIR cd ${.CURDIR} ; $(MAKE) install DESTDIR=${DISTDIR}/${DISTRIBUTION} SHARED=copies .endif .if !target(lint) -lint: ${SRCS} _PROGSUBDIR +lint: ${SRCS} _SUBDIR .if defined(PROG) @${LINT} ${LINTFLAGS} ${CFLAGS} ${.ALLSRC} | more 2>&1 .endif .endif -.if !target(obj) -.if defined(NOOBJ) -obj: _PROGSUBDIR -.else -obj: _PROGSUBDIR - @cd ${.CURDIR}; rm -rf obj; \ - here=`pwd`; dest=/usr/obj`echo $$here | sed 's,^/usr/src,,'`; \ - ${ECHO} "$$here -> $$dest"; ln -s $$dest obj; \ - if test -d /usr/obj -a ! -d $$dest; then \ - mkdir -p $$dest; \ - else \ - true; \ - fi; -.endif -.endif - .if !target(tags) -tags: ${SRCS} _PROGSUBDIR +tags: ${SRCS} _SUBDIR .if defined(PROG) -cd ${.CURDIR}; ctags -f /dev/stdout ${.ALLSRC} | \ sed "s;\${.CURDIR}/;;" > tags @@ -250,5 +207,5 @@ all-man: .endif -_DEPSUBDIR= _PROGSUBDIR .include +.include Index: share/mk/bsd.sgml.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.sgml.mk,v retrieving revision 1.5 diff -u -r1.5 bsd.sgml.mk --- bsd.sgml.mk 1996/05/27 23:12:15 1.5 +++ bsd.sgml.mk 1996/06/21 23:42:40 @@ -1,7 +1,7 @@ # bsd.sgml.mk - 8 Sep 1995 John Fieber # This file is in the public domain. # -# $Id$ +# $Id: bsd.sgml.mk,v 1.5 1996/05/27 23:12:15 wosch Exp $ # # The include file handles installing sgml documents. # includes the file named "../Makefile.inc" if it exists, @@ -81,7 +81,6 @@ .if !target(print) print: ${FORMATS:S/^/print-/g} - .endif spell: ${SRCS} @@ -146,10 +145,11 @@ .endfor -.for __target in beforeinstall afterinstall maninstall depend _SUBDIRUSE +.for __target in beforeinstall afterinstall maninstall depend _SUBDIR .if !target(__target) ${__target}: .endif .endfor +.include .include Index: usr.bin/make/main.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.bin/make/main.c,v retrieving revision 1.3 diff -u -r1.3 main.c --- main.c 1995/05/30 06:32:00 1.3 +++ main.c 1996/06/21 22:12:57 @@ -375,6 +375,7 @@ char mdpath[MAXPATHLEN + 1]; char obpath[MAXPATHLEN + 1]; char cdpath[MAXPATHLEN + 1]; + char *realobjdir; /* Where we'd like to go */ struct utsname utsname; char *machine = getenv("MACHINE"); @@ -424,12 +425,10 @@ * and modify the paths for the Makefiles apropriately. The * current directory is also placed as a variable for make scripts. */ - if (!(path = getenv("MAKEOBJDIR"))) { + if (!(path = getenv("MAKEOBJDIR"))) path = _PATH_OBJDIR; - (void) sprintf(mdpath, "%s.%s", path, machine); - } - else - (void) strncpy(mdpath, path, MAXPATHLEN + 1); + (void) snprintf(mdpath, MAXPATHLEN, "%s%s", path, curdir); + realobjdir = mdpath; /* This is where we'd _like_ to be, anyway */ if (stat(mdpath, &sb) == 0 && S_ISDIR(sb.st_mode)) { @@ -447,27 +446,8 @@ objdir = mdpath; } } - else { - if (stat(path, &sb) == 0 && S_ISDIR(sb.st_mode)) { - - if (chdir(path)) { - (void)fprintf(stderr, "make warning: %s: %s.\n", - path, strerror(errno)); - objdir = curdir; - } - else { - if (path[0] != '/') { - (void) sprintf(obpath, "%s/%s", curdir, - path); - objdir = obpath; - } - else - objdir = obpath; - } - } - else - objdir = curdir; - } + else + objdir = curdir; setenv("PWD", objdir, 1); @@ -509,7 +489,7 @@ if (objdir != curdir) Dir_AddDir(dirSearchPath, curdir); Var_Set(".CURDIR", curdir, VAR_GLOBAL); - Var_Set(".OBJDIR", objdir, VAR_GLOBAL); + Var_Set(".OBJDIR", realobjdir, VAR_GLOBAL); /* * Initialize various variables. Index: usr.bin/make/pathnames.h =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.bin/make/pathnames.h,v retrieving revision 1.2 diff -u -r1.2 pathnames.h --- pathnames.h 1995/01/23 21:01:52 1.2 +++ pathnames.h 1996/06/21 21:25:23 @@ -31,10 +31,10 @@ * SUCH DAMAGE. * * from: @(#)pathnames.h 5.2 (Berkeley) 6/1/90 - * $Id$ + * $Id: pathnames.h,v 1.2 1995/01/23 21:01:52 jkh Exp $ */ -#define _PATH_OBJDIR "obj" +#define _PATH_OBJDIR "/usr/obj" #define _PATH_DEFSHELLDIR "/bin" #define _PATH_DEFSYSMK "/usr/share/mk/sys.mk" #define _PATH_DEFSYSPATH "/usr/share/mk" From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 19:25:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA19184 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA19179 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA19392; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:25:05 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:25:04 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Jake Hamby cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > > >Hmm, I thought, that many sysadmin tools were written in tk... > > >admintool, swmtool ... Am I so wrong ??? > > > > no, you are right. Sun were one of the first companies to embrace > > tcl/tk. They even made an incredibly bogus openwin version of tk. > > Whoa, Poul, I think you are wrong, at least as far as Solaris 2.5. Maybe > originally they used TCL/Tk, but in Solaris 2.3, admintool was pure OPEN Maybe he's confusing Solaris with SCO. -mike hancock From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 19:45:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20362 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20352 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA25304 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:45:24 -0700 (PDT) To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Whoops! That was a mite premature.. Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:45:24 -0700 Message-ID: <25302.835411524@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In my previous set of patches for changing /usr/obj, I don't deal with the Makefiles which have constructs in the form: .if exists(${.CURDIR}/../../foo/bar/obj) ... .fi These constructs now obviously have to be changed to: .if exists(${.OBJDIR}/../../foo/bar) ... .fi Before your make world will go all the way through. I'll send a follow-up set of patches which fix all of these in /usr/src, but if you're rarin' to get past them then this is the "formula" for dealing with it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 20:14:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA21346 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA21341 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 20:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA02955; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:11:57 -0400 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199606220311.XAA02955@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606220148.TAA15308@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 21, 96 07:48:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the world, Nate Williams had to walk into mine and say: > Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > > > > Tell he what this is then ? > > > > Poul-Henning > > dgbcc0# uname -a > > SunOS dgbcc0 5.4 brutus_[on494-patch]_06/15/95 sun4m sparc > > dgbcc0# file /usr/snadm/classes/admintool/display.t > > /usr/snadm/classes/admintool/display.t: ascii text > > dgbcc0# tail /usr/snadm/classes/admintool/display.t > > execution_host \ > > } > > ultra:/usr/snadm/classes # uname -a > SunOS ultra.sri.MT.net 5.5 Generic_103093-02 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1 > ultra:/usr/snadm/classes # ls -l > total 2 > drwxr-xr-x 3 bin bin 512 Apr 17 10:10 locale/ > drwxr-xr-x 2 bin bin 512 Apr 17 10:10 system.2.1/ > > They quit using it then. > And SGI started. IRIX 6.2 includes a component called sgitcl_eoe. I'm not sure how heavily it's used in the OS. IRIX includes perl in a seperate component as well. The good thing about this is that you can choose not to install these components if you don't want them. SGI has an advantage in this area though because they don't have to distribute a similarly compartmentalized source tree (Elvis only knows how they handle this internally). In any case, I don't think tcl belongs in the FreeBSD's /usr/src and I wish everyone would stop arguing over it and nuke it already. If people want tools that use tcl or its ilk, put them both in a seperate repository (other than ports -- maybe a layered products repository). The core OS tree should not be dependent on these tools but the user can choose to install them along with the other large pieces just like XFree86. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= License error: The license for this .sig file has expired. You must obtain a new license key before any more witty phrases will appear in this space. ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 21:05:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA26120 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sanewo.ba2.so-net.or.jp (ppp6a17.pppp.ap.so-net.or.jp [202.238.106.23]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA26100 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 21:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sanewo@localhost) by sanewo.ba2.so-net.or.jp (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09298; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:04:29 +0900 (JST) To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: subscribe From: Takanori Saneto Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.66) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 22 Jun 1996 13:04:22 +0900 Message-ID: <87spboscvt.fsf@sanewo.ba2.so-net.or.jp> Lines: 2 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.22/Emacs 19.31 Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk subscribe current subscribe hackers From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 22:11:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA29269 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA29264 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA18866; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:07:26 +1000 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:07:26 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606220507.PAA18866@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Whoops! That was a mite premature.. Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >In my previous set of patches for changing /usr/obj, I don't deal with >the Makefiles which have constructs in the form: >.if exists(${.CURDIR}/../../foo/bar/obj) >... >.fi Also, the diffs aren't relative to any version that I know of, so, the patches fail. E.g., Index: usr.bin/make/pathnames.h =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.bin/make/pathnames.h,v retrieving revision 1.2 diff -u -r1.2 pathnames.h --- pathnames.h 1995/01/23 21:01:52 1.2 +++ pathnames.h 1996/06/21 21:25:23 @@ -31,10 +31,10 @@ * SUCH DAMAGE. * * from: @(#)pathnames.h 5.2 (Berkeley) 6/1/90 - * $Id$ + * $Id: pathnames.h,v 1.2 1995/01/23 21:01:52 jkh Exp $ */ The `+' line is already in -current and the `-' line isn't anywhere. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 22:43:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA00675 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sequent.kiae.su (sequent.kiae.su [144.206.136.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00670; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sequent.kiae.su id AA05651 (5.65.kiae-2 ); Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:34:16 +0400 Received: by sequent.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Sat, 22 Jun 96 09:34:16 +0400 Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.ru (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00573; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:33:28 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199606220533.JAA00573@nagual.ru> Subject: various 'fetch' errors To: jkh@freebsd.org (Jordan Hubbard), asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD-current) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:33:27 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (Andrey A. Chernov) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 1) Just notice that fetch not set correct date/time for ftp-received file :-( It really needed, because some packages keeps the same name while package date changes, so it is impossible to determine package version when date always set to current as fetch does now. Looking into fetch sources I found that fetch use ftpGetModtime only for restart case and not for normal case. Please, fix this thing. 2) I notice that HTTP_TIMEOUT is 60 secs, it is too small for Russian sites connected to outside world. Please increase it or add an option to change it. 3) I notice that fetch died on SIGHUP/etc but not died on SIGTERM, please add SIGTERM too. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 23:19:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA02333 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA02326 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA15830; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:19:03 -0600 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:19:03 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606220619.AAA15830@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-Reply-To: <24932.835409971@time.cdrom.com> References: <24932.835409971@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Description of what appears to be good cleanups of the obj stuff ] > some truly gross sed hackery before). None of the existing > functionality of /usr/obj has been lost. > > The obj target now basically does nothing more than create ${.OBJDIR} > and the cleandir target blows it away again if it exists. In all > scenarios, if ${.OBJDIR} does not exist then everything happens > transparently in ${.CURDIR} instead. I know this sounds weird, but would it be possible to set an environment variable to *also* create the symlinks. Often-times things will blow up on me due to old dependencies, and it's nice to be able to do a 'rm obj/.depend'. If I understand the current system I'd have to bounce around in the FS to get to the directory to blow things away. It's also nice to be able to look at the obj link and see what the 'state' of things is, ie; 'ls obj/'. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 23:21:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA02583 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gdi.uoregon.edu (cisco-ts7-line12.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA02575 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dwhite@localhost) by gdi.uoregon.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA00870; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:20:14 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:20:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White Reply-To: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problems boot 2.2-SNAP In-Reply-To: <199606181449.LAA11741@mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > I'm trying to install 2.2-SNAP on my desktop machine, which is already > running 2.1.0-RELEASE. But both 960501 and 960612 SNAPs could not boot > in it. > > It loads from the floppy, uncompresses itself and print the message > "Booting ...". After this, nothing more happens. I have installed > it on other machines, so I think it's not my fault. > > This machine is a 486DX2/66, 40 MB RAM (no parity), Chipset ALI, VESA BUS, > Cirrus SVGA, NE2000 NIC, 2 IDE Drives. I chant the mantra: 1) Is it an ERROR-FREE floppy? 2) Was the image downloaded in BINARY mode? 3) If you are running under Win95, are you booting to MS-DOS to write the image? Doug White | University of Oregon Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major From owner-freebsd-current Fri Jun 21 23:25:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA03306 for current-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA03290 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA24855; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:25:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:19:03 MDT." <199606220619.AAA15830@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 23:25:00 -0700 Message-ID: <24850.835424700@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I know this sounds weird, but would it be possible to set an environment > variable to *also* create the symlinks. Often-times things will blow up > on me due to old dependencies, and it's nice to be able to do a 'rm > obj/.depend'. If I understand the current system I'd have to bounce > around in the FS to get to the directory to blow things away. Not at all: 1. make clean - wipes the *contents* of ${.OBJDIR} 2. make cleandepend - wipes out the depend in ${.OBJDIR} 3. make cleandir - wipes out ${.OBJDIR} completely Between those 3, you can pretty much clean what you wish. > It's also nice to be able to look at the obj link and see what the > 'state' of things is, ie; 'ls obj/'. This is something of a nice feature which we lose, though there are possible work-arounds. In any case, I'd really rather not put the symlinks back as there's too much code which would have to be "dual headed" to deal with either possibility and it'd be just too gross. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 00:40:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09677 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA09625 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 00:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA23331; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:32:34 +1000 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:32:34 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606220732.RAA23331@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: OK, here it is! [was Re: Whoops! That was a mite premature..] Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Once config is modified to dump its compile dir under ${.OBJDIR}, this >work will basically be finished. I haven't done this yet due to the >fact that I want to think about kernel compiles a little more, but the >userland code should work. I use /sys/compile -> /usr/obj/sys/compile and FOOKERNEL/machine -> @/i386/include and FOOKERNEL/@ -> /sys, but this requires some modifcations to the aic7xxx paths since the aic7xxxx assembler doesn't support -I. >=================================================================== >RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/gnu/usr.bin/as/Makefile,v >retrieving revision 1.9 >diff -u -r1.9 Makefile >--- Makefile 1995/09/22 14:14:12 1.9 >+++ Makefile 1996/06/22 05:00:48 >@@ -13,8 +13,8 @@ > gas_objformat=aout > .endif > >-.if exists(${.CURDIR}/obj) >-ADDINCLUDE=-I${.CURDIR}/obj >+.if exists(${.OBJDIR}) >+ADDINCLUDE=-I${.OBJDIR} > .endif > > PROG= as The .if is now always true since ${.OBJDIR} is the current directory if there is no special object directory. >=================================================================== >RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc/Makefile.inc,v >retrieving revision 1.13 >diff -u -r1.13 Makefile.inc >--- Makefile.inc 1995/03/11 03:48:42 1.13 >+++ Makefile.inc 1996/06/22 05:43:47 >@@ -15,8 +15,8 @@ > CFLAGS+= -DGCC_NAME=\"cc\" > CFLAGS+= -DLINK_LIBGCC_SPECIAL_1 > >-.if exists(${.CURDIR}/../cc_int/obj) >-LIBDESTDIR= ${.CURDIR}/../cc_int/obj >+.if exists(${.OBJDIR}/../cc_int) >+LIBDESTDIR= ${.OBJDIR}/../cc_int > .else > LIBDESTDIR= ${.CURDIR}/../cc_int > .endif This isn't good enough. ${.OBJDIR} only gives the object directory associated with the current directory. The rule for building the pathname for the object directory associated with other source directories may be quite different. E.g., if I'm compiling cc and want to build a temporary copy with CC='cc -g', I would now do `mv obj zo; mkdir obj; make CC=cc -g'' (or similarly without new and/or old obj directories). In the new scheme I might have to unset the macro that points to the object tree. The new scheme is going to have problems finding the object directory for cc_int. It would probably work to leave the macro set and rearrange the directories in the object tree, but the simplest case of building in the current directory won't work. What will replace `cd obj'? Not cd ${MAKEOBJDIR}`pwd | sed ...`. Perhaps "cd `make --print-makes-idea-of-the-obj-dir`". MAKEOBJDIR should be named something like MAKEOBJROOTDIR. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 02:13:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA17614 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17600 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id LAA10674 for current@FreeBSD.org; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:00:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00419 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:22:15 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:22:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-Reply-To: <987.835405083@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> >Hmm, I thought, that many sysadmin tools were written in tk... > >> >admintool, swmtool ... Am I so wrong ??? > >> > >> no, you are right. > > > >No, he was wrong. I've got a Solaris 2.5 box sitting *right here*, and > >all of the tool program are binaries and have *NO* TK strings in them. > > > well, on 2.4 they were... I think, too, that I have detected traces of tk, when I had a sparcstation 2 at home with Solaris 2.4 Hardware 11/94. I think they did the admintool with that. > >of Solaris 2.5 (the most recent release) there is *NO* trace of TK > >anywhere on the system. > It's probably Java :-) hehehe ;-)) -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 02:13:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA17678 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17671; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id LAA10749; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:00:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00429; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:24:17 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:24:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Jake Hamby , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Way In-Reply-To: <1008.835405818@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > Tell he what this is then ? [...] > source [where_am_i]/help_msgs_util.t > source [where_am_i]/misc_util.t > source [where_am_i]/window_util.t > source [where_am_i]/main.t [...] Ha ! I knew it ! Thanks Poul ! Well, it was long ago, but I saw similar things ... -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 02:40:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA19590 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA19581 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA13627; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:43:50 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606221013.TAA13627@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:43:50 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606220619.AAA15830@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 22, 96 00:19:03 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > I know this sounds weird, but would it be possible to set an environment > variable to *also* create the symlinks. Often-times things will blow up > on me due to old dependencies, and it's nice to be able to do a 'rm > obj/.depend'. If I understand the current system I'd have to bounce > around in the FS to get to the directory to blow things away. > > It's also nice to be able to look at the obj link and see what the > 'state' of things is, ie; 'ls obj/'. The source tree is sacrosanct, so that would be src/ not obj/. > Nate -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 07:21:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA03569 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA03549 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous218.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.218]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA06702; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:06:50 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA05748; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:01:43 +0200 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:01:43 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199606221401.QAA05748@campa.panke.de> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-Reply-To: <24932.835409971@time.cdrom.com> References: <24932.835409971@time.cdrom.com> Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: >In case you ISPs out there haven't twigged to the significance of this >yet either, with these changes you can now keep a single copy of >/usr/src up to date for any number of machines, having simultaneous >`make worlds' run from a single NFS mounted source partition on >multiple clients with none of the mutual interferance problems we have >now. That's why *I* wanted this feature, anyway! :-) Jordan, this already works with the current bsd.obj.mk ;-)))) Example: $ mkdir /tmp/obj # temp obj tree $ cd /a/current/src/lkm # compile for obj-mavic, set CFLAGS or other variables $ env BSDOBJDIR=/tmp/obj MAKEOBJDIR=obj-mavic make -I \ /a/current/src/share/mk obj depend all # compile for obj-campa, set CFLAGS or other variables $ env BSDOBJDIR=/tmp/obj MAKEOBJDIR=obj-campa make -I \ /a/current/src/share/mk obj depend all Now you have two differently symlinks to different obj directories. $ cd /a/current/src/lkm/cd9660 $ ls -l total 4 drwxrwxr-x 2 wosch wheel 512 May 29 15:46 CVS -rw-rw-r-- 1 wosch wheel 285 Sep 22 1994 Makefile lrwxrwxr-x 1 wosch wheel 43 Jun 22 14:55 obj-campa -> /tmp/obj/a/current/src/lkm/cd9660/obj-campa lrwxrwxr-x 1 wosch wheel 43 Jun 22 14:55 obj-mavic -> /tmp/obj/a/current/src/lkm/cd9660/obj-mavic Wolfram From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 07:31:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04829 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA04805; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25048; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:29:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Gary Palmer cc: Paulo Menezes , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: out of ptys? In-Reply-To: <7092.835304345@palmer.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > > It does? Whoops. I think the limit is actually 256 now (can someone > confirm this?) No problems with 256 of 'em here, so the limit is at least that. I've seen somewhere around 170+ allocated here (logins + screen sessions) on a busy night with only one of the servers accepting logins. I'm not sure what is involved getting more than 256 tty pairs, since tty[pqrsPQRS][0-9a-v] only gives you 256 devices. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 07:38:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA05515 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA05507 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25062 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:36:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-CURRENT-L Subject: Panic in _pmap_clear_modify Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My workstation crashed out of the blue with this one a few days ago. I had just logged in and was reattaching my screen session when it happened. Didn't notice anything else strange at all. Might this be fixed in the post-2.2SNAP VM work? > Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode > fault virtual address = 0x0 > fault code = supervisor read, page not present > instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf01b5996 > stack pointer = 0x10:0xf01d8e9c > frame pointer = 0x10:0xf01d8ea8 > code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b > = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 > processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 > current process = Idle > interrupt mask = net tty bio > panic: page fault > > syncing disks... 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 giving up > Automatic reboot in 15 seconds - press a key on the console to abort > Rebooting... > FreeBSD 2.2-960501-SNAP #1: Sat May 11 15:29:10 EDT 1996 > taob@cabal.io.org:/usr/local/src/2.2-960501-SNAP/sys/compile/CABAL # nm -a /kernel | sort | fgrep -C f01b59 f01b5714 T _pmap_is_modified f01b5890 T _pmap_clear_modify f01b59cc T _pmap_clear_reference f01b5b08 t _i386_protection_init f01b5b8c T _pmap_mapdev -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 07:50:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA06995 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA06984; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 07:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25138; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:46:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Terry Lambert cc: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= , sos@freebsd.org, mark@grondar.za, current@freebsd.org, peter@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... In-Reply-To: <199606211715.KAA18562@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > In general, cut&paste and click reporting in a window can not be active > simultaneously. xterm allows cut/paste with any modifier key active except Control. If I have a "clickable" program running in an xterm, the easy workaround is to hold down the Shift key to cut and paste (assuming that shift-clicking isn't intercepted by your window manager). Perhaps the same could be done with syscons so that clicks aren't passed to the tty. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 08:19:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA10388 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA10375 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous229.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.229]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA08216; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:04:42 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA05927; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:59:16 +0200 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:59:16 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199606221459.QAA05927@campa.panke.de> To: Peter Mutsaers Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <87rarb7axu.fsf@plm.xs4all.nl> References: <87rarb7axu.fsf@plm.xs4all.nl> Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Mutsaers writes: >I also install tcl almost on all machines I use. But that doesn't mean >that it should be in the main tree instead of in ports. The main tree >should contain only the base OS? Ports is for all the nice optional >extras. >I'd like more to see perl be removed from the main tree (since perl4 >is outdated anyway, and perl5 is in ports). You can't remove perl from the main tree ;-))) Many sytem tools are written in perl. Don't waste your time to rewrite them in C because you don't like perl! Wolfram From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 08:37:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12208 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12201 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mispwoso.nosc.mil (mispwoso.nosc.mil [198.253.27.55]) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA09384 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 08:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from huck@localhost) by mispwoso.nosc.mil (8.7.5/8.6.12) id LAA19632; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:31:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Craig Huckabee Message-Id: <199606221531.LAA19632@mispwoso.nosc.mil> Subject: Re: out of ptys? To: taob@io.org (Brian Tao) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Cc: paulo@centauro.isr.uc.pt, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Brian Tao" at Jun 22, 96 10:29:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > > > > It does? Whoops. I think the limit is actually 256 now (can someone > > confirm this?) > > No problems with 256 of 'em here, so the limit is at least that. > I've seen somewhere around 170+ allocated here (logins + screen > sessions) on a busy night with only one of the servers accepting > logins. I'm not sure what is involved getting more than 256 tty > pairs, since tty[pqrsPQRS][0-9a-v] only gives you 256 devices. I'm running 256 here as well, and we've used most of them all at once (during some stress testing). There's also this note in /dev/MAKEDEV: [in the section for pty creation....] # This still leaves [tuTU]. Dunno if that means they are also available giving a max of 384. --Craig > -- > Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) > Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. > "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" > From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 09:00:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14505 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jolt.eng.umd.edu (jolt.eng.umd.edu [129.2.102.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14499 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ginger.eng.umd.edu (ginger.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.204]) by jolt.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02593; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by ginger.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08872; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:00:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@ginger.eng.umd.edu To: Wolfram Schneider cc: Peter Mutsaers , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-Reply-To: <199606221459.QAA05927@campa.panke.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > Peter Mutsaers writes: > >I also install tcl almost on all machines I use. But that doesn't mean > >that it should be in the main tree instead of in ports. The main tree > >should contain only the base OS? Ports is for all the nice optional > >extras. > > >I'd like more to see perl be removed from the main tree (since perl4 > >is outdated anyway, and perl5 is in ports). > > You can't remove perl from the main tree ;-))) Many sytem tools are > written in perl. Don't waste your time to rewrite them in C because > you don't like perl! True, but the tcl move seems to raise other questions, doesn't it ... like, why should we have tcl without tk? If we have tk, shouldn't we have XFree86? Don't leap to the conclusion that I'd be against it, either, if it were done well. I am beginning to wonder if keeping FreeBSD strictly out of X means keeping it 10 years behind current technology (in some respects, at least). Keeping FreeBSD lean and mean also means keeping the administration tools hamstrung, and the user interface rocky. Think of what the standard FreeBSD could be if it wasn't quite so lean. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 09:03:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14846 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14841 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uXV92-000Qb0C; Sat, 22 Jun 96 18:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA15088 for FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:31:37 +0200 Message-Id: <199606221231.OAA15088@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: OK, who broke BSD/OS compatibility? To: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current users) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:31:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Since this morning's build (CVS 2146 vs. 2142), BSD/OS emulation doesn't work any more. Processes crap out before hitting _start. Could whoever did it please fix it? Thanks Greg From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 09:15:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA15822 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA15815 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id SAA08061; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:01:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA05249; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:07:31 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:07:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-Reply-To: <24932.835409971@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Well, I sat down this morning with the intention that /usr/obj change > its spots before sundown and it looks like I made it with time to > spare. Do your changes make now or in future possible, to compile the source tree totally independend from the files in /usr/include and /usr/share/mk and such, that would allow to compile every wanted OS Release independently from what is installed in the system.. A make world could be made in single user mode and a make install in single user mode would allow to copy the programs into the system areas ... That would be great ... Andreas /// -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 09:18:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA15946 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA15941 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA25727; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:16:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Craig Huckabee cc: paulo@centauro.isr.uc.pt, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: out of ptys? In-Reply-To: <199606221531.LAA19632@mispwoso.nosc.mil> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Craig Huckabee wrote: > > [in the section for pty creation....] > # This still leaves [tuTU]. > > Dunno if that means they are also available giving a max of 384. You'd have to check of extending the minor device numbers past 127 will work as well (I haven't looked yet). -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 09:20:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA16087 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from masternet.it (masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16022 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gmarco.eclipse.org (ts1port1d.masternet.it [194.184.65.23]) by masternet.it (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA09180 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:15:11 +0200 Message-ID: <31CC3793.41C67EA6@masternet.it> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:12:35 +0000 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Snap 960501 on TI EXTENSA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am trying to install Snap 960501 on my TI EXTENSA 560CDT . I installed an "X User (52mb)" distribution set, then I ctm(ed) the base delta src-curr.1600A.gz for creating the source tree and then all the ctm till #1919. but the make world exits with an error : --- cut --- cd /usr/src/usr.bin/xlint/lint2 && make -DNOMAN -DNOPROFILE install install -c -s -o bin -g bin -m 555 lint2 /usr/libexec cd /usr/src/usr.bin/xlint/xlint && make -DNOMAN -DNOPROFILE install install -c -s -o bin -g bin -m 555 xlint /usr/bin/lint cd /usr/src/usr.bin/lex && make -DNOMAN -DNOPROFILE bootstrap && make -DNOMAN -DNOPROFILE all install Bootstrapping flex yacc -d /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/parse.y mv -f y.tab.c parse.c mv -f y.tab.h parse.h cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c scan.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/ccl.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/dfa.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/ecs.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/gen.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/main.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/misc.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/nfa.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c parse.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/skel.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/sym.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/tblcmp.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/yylex.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -o lex scan.o ccl.o dfa.o ecs.o gen.o main. o misc.o nfa.o parse.o skel.o sym.o tblcmp.o yylex.o ===> lib cc -O -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/lib/libmain.c -o libmain.o ld: invalid command option `-O' *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. --- end --- The other two computers (not laptops) compile without any problems. here is some configurations : FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Wed Apr 24 15:42:15 1996 gmarco@suzy.eclipse.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/SUZY Calibrating clock(s) relative to mc146818A clock... i586 clock: 74361562 Hz, i8254 clock: 1193460 Hz CPU: Pentium (74.33-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 Features=0x1bf real memory = 16777216 (16384K bytes) avail memory = 14856192 (14508K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0 rev 0 on pci0:0 chip1 rev 0 on pci0:1 vga0 rev 0 int a irq ?? on pci0:2 Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 not found at 0x300 sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 on isa wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): wd0: 1160MB (2376864 sectors), 2358 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S wdc0: unit 1 (atapi): , removable, accel, dma, iordis wcd0: 689Kb/sec, 128Kb cache, audio play, 256 volume levels, ejectable tray wcd0: no disc inside, unlocked wdc1 not found at 0x170 npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface sb0 at 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 on isa sb0: opl0 at 0x388 on isa opl0: joy0 at 0x201 on isa joy0: joystick -- Regards... +-------------------------------------+--------------------+ | Internet: gmarco@masternet.it | ,,, | | Internet: gmarco@nettuno.it | (o o) | | BIX : ggiovannelli@bix.com | ---oo0-(_)-0oo--- | | http://www.masternet.it/dsc/gmarco | Gianmarco | +-------------------------------------+--------------------+ From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 09:40:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA17642 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA17637 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA15310; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:39:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Bruce Evans cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OK, here it is! [was Re: Whoops! That was a mite premature..] In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:32:34 +1000." <199606220732.RAA23331@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 09:39:52 -0700 Message-ID: <15308.835461592@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I use /sys/compile -> /usr/obj/sys/compile and FOOKERNEL/machine -> > @/i386/include and FOOKERNEL/@ -> /sys, but this requires some > modifcations to the aic7xxx paths since the aic7xxxx assembler doesn't > support -I. Hmmmm. This would imply that we also lose the /sys link and replace it with a directory so that we can create the link to /usr/obj/sys/compile. I'm not against it, but it's a bit more of a change than I was looking for in this first round. I'll probably punt on config for now since it's not really part of the problem I'm trying to solve - I just want simultaneous makes to work in the same tree and since the kernels generally each go to a different subdirectory of /sys/compile anyway (unless somebody has named two machines' kernel config files the same - self induced injury :-). > >-.if exists(${.CURDIR}/obj) > >-ADDINCLUDE=-I${.CURDIR}/obj > >+.if exists(${.OBJDIR}) > >+ADDINCLUDE=-I${.OBJDIR} > > .endif > > > > PROG= as > > The .if is now always true since ${.OBJDIR} is the current directory if > there is no special object directory. Erm.. Yeah, OK, so I was kinda sleepy towards the end there. :-) > >-.if exists(${.CURDIR}/../cc_int/obj) > >-LIBDESTDIR= ${.CURDIR}/../cc_int/obj > >+.if exists(${.OBJDIR}/../cc_int) > >+LIBDESTDIR= ${.OBJDIR}/../cc_int > > .else > > LIBDESTDIR= ${.CURDIR}/../cc_int > > .endif > > This isn't good enough. ${.OBJDIR} only gives the object directory > associated with the current directory. The rule for building the > pathname for the object directory associated with other source > directories may be quite different. E.g., if I'm compiling cc and want I don't think that this is going to be a general case, if it ever even comes up. I do have to make some assumptions here, and one is that /usr/obj is essentially going to shadow /usr/src. Trying to make it even more general case than this would probably be an exercise in diminishing returns. > What will replace `cd obj'? Not cd ${MAKEOBJDIR}`pwd | sed ...`. > Perhaps "cd `make --print-makes-idea-of-the-obj-dir`". What's wrong with `cd ${.OBJDIR}'? > MAKEOBJDIR should be named something like MAKEOBJROOTDIR. I thought this too, at first, but MAKEOBJDIR wasn't used anywhere and I wondered at the utility in keeping it. The same goes for ${.OBJDIR}, actually. It used to point to either obj/ or ${.CURDIR}, now it always points at the path under ${MAKEOBJDIR} whether that directory exists or not. I deemed this better than creating a new variable (${.NEWOBJDIR} or something) and also retaining the semantics where ${.OBJDIR} and ${.CURDIR} were ever identical. Knowing they're not enables me to blow away ${.OBJDIR} with impugnity, also saving MUCH time in running the clean rule first since you know you're about to blow everything in there away anyway and there's not much point in removing individual files first. Anyway, thanks for the feedback! I found some other bogons with /usr/src/bin/sh (the mkbuiltins shell script has knowledge of obj dirs; yuck!) and will have some more diffs just as soon as I finally get through an entire `make world' Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 10:08:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA19088 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA19076 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-2) with ESMTP id SAA19295; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:07:01 +0100 (BST) To: Andreas Klemm cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:07:31 +0200." Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:06:59 +0100 Message-ID: <19293.835463219@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andreas Klemm wrote in message ID : > On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Well, I sat down this morning with the intention that /usr/obj change > > its spots before sundown and it looks like I made it with time to > > spare. > > Do your changes make now or in future possible, to compile the > source tree totally independend from the files in /usr/include > and /usr/share/mk and such, that would allow to compile every > wanted OS Release independently from what is installed in the system.. You really need FULL independance from the installed system, as make world currently spams new compilers and libraries over the system before doing anything else. I consider this a bug, or at least a mis-feature. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 10:31:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA20738 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA20727 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA28879; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:31:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Wolfram Schneider cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:01:43 +0200." <199606221401.QAA05748@campa.panke.de> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:31:10 -0700 Message-ID: <28877.835464670@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > this already works with the current bsd.obj.mk ;-)))) Erm, not really.. > # compile for obj-mavic, set CFLAGS or other variables > $ env BSDOBJDIR=/tmp/obj MAKEOBJDIR=obj-mavic make -I \ Yeah, I know about BSDOBJDIR (I changed it :-), but it doesn't help me make the world. Also, I want the obj links *out* of /usr/src altogether since I don't want anything ever writing into that hierarchy. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 10:34:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21062 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21050 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA16449; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:34:17 -0600 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:34:17 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606221734.LAA16449@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-Reply-To: <24850.835424700@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606220619.AAA15830@rocky.sri.MT.net> <24850.835424700@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > I know this sounds weird, but would it be possible to set an environment > > variable to *also* create the symlinks. Often-times things will blow up > > on me due to old dependencies, and it's nice to be able to do a 'rm > > obj/.depend'. If I understand the current system I'd have to bounce > > around in the FS to get to the directory to blow things away. > In any case, I'd really rather not put the symlinks back as there's > too much code which would have to be "dual headed" to deal with > either possibility and it'd be just too gross. Umm, why would it be any different? The symlink would be for the user only. The make system wouldn't even be aware of it's existance. Again, this is for *me* to be able to see the contents of the obj directory easily. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 10:36:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21293 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21284 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA29973; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:35:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Chuck Robey cc: Wolfram Schneider , Peter Mutsaers , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:00:07 EDT." Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:35:32 -0700 Message-ID: <29971.835464932@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > True, but the tcl move seems to raise other questions, doesn't it ... > like, why should we have tcl without tk? If we have tk, shouldn't we > have XFree86? No and no. I think you're unclear on the concept, actually. Tk is as much a part of TCL as /bin/true is part of the UNIX kernel. TCL is the framework, and whether you add in something like expect, tk, tclX or tcl-dp later is truly your own business. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 10:37:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21516 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21507 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA00491; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:37:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Andreas Klemm cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:07:31 +0200." Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:37:30 -0700 Message-ID: <488.835465050@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Do your changes make now or in future possible, to compile the > source tree totally independend from the files in /usr/include > and /usr/share/mk and such, that would allow to compile every > wanted OS Release independently from what is installed in the system.. No, that would require a second pass and is somewhat beyond the scope of what I had in mind for this one set of changes. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 10:47:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22487 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA22480 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA13568; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:47:30 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:47:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Veggy Vinny To: Craig Huckabee cc: Brian Tao , paulo@centauro.isr.uc.pt, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: out of ptys? In-Reply-To: <199606221531.LAA19632@mispwoso.nosc.mil> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Craig Huckabee wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > > > > > > It does? Whoops. I think the limit is actually 256 now (can someone > > > confirm this?) > > > > No problems with 256 of 'em here, so the limit is at least that. > > I've seen somewhere around 170+ allocated here (logins + screen > > sessions) on a busy night with only one of the servers accepting > > logins. I'm not sure what is involved getting more than 256 tty > > pairs, since tty[pqrsPQRS][0-9a-v] only gives you 256 devices. > > I'm running 256 here as well, and we've used most of them all at once > (during some stress testing). There's also this note in /dev/MAKEDEV: > > [in the section for pty creation....] > # This still leaves [tuTU]. > > Dunno if that means they are also available giving a max of 384. Hmmm, we have a Dual P5-100 w/128megs and somehow the machine slows down to turtle speed..... Also, for some reason, when there is 150 httpd sessions running, it seems to flood the router and then the entire network is really lagging... we're on a T1 with a Wellfleet(sp?) router, does anyone know anything about this router and how to get this problem fixed? Vince System Administration Team/GaiaNet Corporation From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 10:48:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22695 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA22690 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA10318; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:48:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:34:17 MDT." <199606221734.LAA16449@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:48:09 -0700 Message-ID: <10315.835465689@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Umm, why would it be any different? The symlink would be for the user > only. The make system wouldn't even be aware of it's existance. Again, > this is for *me* to be able to see the contents of the obj directory > easily. Ah.. Well, we can worry about this as an optional enhancement later. It's not hard to create the symlink from the obj rule. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 10:49:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22801 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA22792 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA16502; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:49:35 -0600 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:49:35 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606221749.LAA16502@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-Reply-To: <10315.835465689@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606221734.LAA16449@rocky.sri.MT.net> <10315.835465689@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Umm, why would it be any different? The symlink would be for the user > > only. The make system wouldn't even be aware of it's existance. Again, > > this is for *me* to be able to see the contents of the obj directory > > easily. > > Ah.. Well, we can worry about this as an optional enhancement later. > It's not hard to create the symlink from the obj rule. Cool. In any case, I'd be willing to test it if that 'enhancement' was in place. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 11:00:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24236 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24231 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA17647; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:59:58 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:49:35 MDT." <199606221749.LAA16502@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: <17620.835466394@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Cool. In any case, I'd be willing to test it if that 'enhancement' was > in place. :) Yeah, yeah, OK, it's called "OBJLINK" now (a boolean) and if you set it, an obj symlink is created. It was a hack which required the complete replication of a rule since you can't have make .ifs from within shell continuations. Thanks a lot, dude! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 11:34:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA27946 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA27940; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02351; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:41:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Chuck Robey cc: Wolfram Schneider , Peter Mutsaers , freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:00:07 EDT." Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:41:15 -0700 Message-ID: <2349.835465275@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >True, but the tcl move seems to raise other questions, doesn't it ... >like, why should we have tcl without tk? If we have tk, shouldn't we >have XFree86? Tk is an extension to Tcl, it is not an integral part, and since we don't have X11 as standard, we will not hav tk as standard. Easy, isn't it ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 12:02:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01396 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01390 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous231.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.231]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA13690; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:58:07 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA06752; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:27:38 +0200 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:27:38 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199606221827.UAA06752@campa.panke.de> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-Reply-To: <28877.835464670@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606221401.QAA05748@campa.panke.de> <28877.835464670@time.cdrom.com> Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: >> this already works with the current bsd.obj.mk ;-)))) > >Erm, not really.. It allow multiple 'make all', I thought this was the main goal. >> # compile for obj-mavic, set CFLAGS or other variables >> $ env BSDOBJDIR=/tmp/obj MAKEOBJDIR=obj-mavic make -I \ > >Yeah, I know about BSDOBJDIR (I changed it :-), but it doesn't help me >make the world. >Also, I want the obj links *out* of /usr/src altogether since I don't >want anything ever writing into that hierarchy. 1. I think this confuse many people, I expect many 'where are the object files?' questions in the future. 2. We have mount_unions. If it is broken, fix it (remember the NFS discussion - we don't change the system if a minor part is wrong) 3. A read-only /usr/src is a feature, it should not break the current algorithm with obj symlinks 4. Don't change the behavior of MAKEOBJDIR, use a new variable (e.g. MAKEOBJROOTDIR) and set .OBJDIR internally to $MAKEOBJROOTDIR/${.CURDIR}/$MAKEOBJDIR or $MAKEOBJROOTDIR/${.CURDIR} Wolfram From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 12:06:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02049 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02032 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id EAA08924; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 04:53:49 +1000 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 04:53:49 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606221853.EAA08924@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: OK, here it is! [was Re: Whoops! That was a mite premature..] Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >-.if exists(${.CURDIR}/../cc_int/obj) >> >-LIBDESTDIR= ${.CURDIR}/../cc_int/obj >> >+.if exists(${.OBJDIR}/../cc_int) >> >+LIBDESTDIR= ${.OBJDIR}/../cc_int >> > .else >> > LIBDESTDIR= ${.CURDIR}/../cc_int >> > .endif >> >> This isn't good enough. ${.OBJDIR} only gives the object directory >> associated with the current directory. The rule for building the >> pathname for the object directory associated with other source >> directories may be quite different. E.g., if I'm compiling cc and want >I don't think that this is going to be a general case, if it ever even >comes up. I do have to make some assumptions here, and one is that >/usr/obj is essentially going to shadow /usr/src. Trying to make it >even more general case than this would probably be an exercise in >diminishing returns. It works now. Don't break it. I think the way to do it is to go back to the root of the tree and not use ${.OBJDIR}. There are now 3 source-relative paths where the foreign objects might be (in decreasing priority): ${.CURDIR}/../cc_int/obj # same as before ${.CURDIR:S/foo/bar/:S/obj$//}/../cc_int # new ${.CURDIR}/../cc_int # same as before where `:S/foo/bar' is some substitution to convert the source tree to the object tree. MAKEOBJDIR could be defined as a substitution instead of as a path to make this easier. The usual case would be foo=src, bar=obj. >> What will replace `cd obj'? Not cd ${MAKEOBJDIR}`pwd | sed ...`. >> Perhaps "cd `make --print-makes-idea-of-the-obj-dir`". >What's wrong with `cd ${.OBJDIR}'? To begin with, it's a syntax error. Shell identifiers can't begin with a `.'. >> MAKEOBJDIR should be named something like MAKEOBJROOTDIR. >I thought this too, at first, but MAKEOBJDIR wasn't used anywhere and >I wondered at the utility in keeping it. The same goes for >${.OBJDIR}, actually. It used to point to either obj/ or ${.CURDIR}, >now it always points at the path under ${MAKEOBJDIR} whether that >directory exists or not. I deemed this better than creating a new >variable (${.NEWOBJDIR} or something) and also retaining the semantics >where ${.OBJDIR} and ${.CURDIR} were ever identical. Knowing they're >not enables me to blow away ${.OBJDIR} with impugnity, also saving >MUCH time in running the clean rule first since you know you're about >to blow everything in there away anyway and there's not much point in >removing individual files first. Urk. The semantics of ${.OBJDIR} must not change since foreign makefiles might depend on them. It is more usefule than before since there are now 3 places where the object directory might be and the new place isn't obvious. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 12:09:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02546 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linus.demon.co.uk (linus.demon.co.uk [158.152.10.220]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02532; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by linus.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00361; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:36:29 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199606221836.TAA00361@linus.demon.co.uk> From: mark@linus.demon.co.uk (Mark Valentine) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:36:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: sos@freebsd.org's message of Jun 21, 12:54pm X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: sos@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current) Subject: Re: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: sos@freebsd.org > Date: Fri 21 Jun, 1996 > Subject: Syscons CUT&PASTE functionality added... > I'd like to hear how this works out with different mousetypes and > especially with different display hardware. Please note this works > only on ega's and above, as the mousepointer is done by reprogramming > the charset, giving the illusion that a "real" graphic mousepointer > is used. Neat feature, though on my system (Logitech serial mouse, S3 801 video with 2MB DRAM, 486DX2/66 CPU), the charset reprogramming seems to make cursor motion cause noticeable jerking of the display (causing mild nausea...). :-( Would a plain block cursor (maybe a different colour) be likely to improve usability on my system? (I can't think of any DOS stuff I have lying around which uses this trick, and I don't remember seeing any of this jerkiness with normal block-cursor DOS stuff.) Cheers, Mark. -- Mark Valentine at Home From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 12:15:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03284 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03272 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA01488; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:15:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Wolfram Schneider cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jun 1996 20:27:38 +0200." <199606221827.UAA06752@campa.panke.de> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:15:01 -0700 Message-ID: <1485.835470901@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It allow multiple 'make all', I thought this was the main goal. It was the main one, yes, but not the only one. I did check into BSDOBJDIR when I first started this, believe me, but it simply wasn't as seamless a mechanism as I liked - I wanted the user to be able to do a `make world' straight from a CD, too, and without having to know any special magic. > 1. I think this confuse many people, I expect many 'where are > the object files?' questions in the future. I'll document it.. :-) Also, there's the OBJLINK feature I just added which *could* be enabled by default during the transition period, I guess. We'd just have to tell the CD people to turn it off. I dunno, it seems a lot more elegant to leave it off! :-) > 2. We have mount_unions. If it is broken, fix it (remember the > NFS discussion - we don't change the system if a minor part > is wrong) mount unions aren't going to work anywhere soon enough to do me any good, sorry (unless you intend to fix them :-). > 3. A read-only /usr/src is a feature, it should not > break the current algorithm with obj symlinks I would argue that a read-only src is BLOODY MANDATORY and people who start stomping on that concept are likely the same silly people who write on string constants in C and need to have all their code compiled with -fwritable-strings! :-) However, I'm not so militant about it that I'd make it an unchangable policy and that's why I gave Nate his OBJLINK feature. Sorry, but there are so many more reasons to argue for a read-only /usr/src than not that I think it's something of a specious argument. > 4. Don't change the behavior of MAKEOBJDIR, use a new variable > (e.g. MAKEOBJROOTDIR) and set .OBJDIR internally to > $MAKEOBJROOTDIR/${.CURDIR}/$MAKEOBJDIR or $MAKEOBJROOTDIR/${.CURDIR} See my mail to Bruce. I will if someone can give me a good reason for adding another variable to replace one which was ill-conceived in the first place (it used to contain the value "obj" for godsakes - how much more useless can you get?). Truly, has anyone out there ever used MAKEOBJDIR in something _other_ than the BSD src tree? Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 12:19:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03713 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA03708 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA03397; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:19:48 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA10532; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606221919.MAA10532@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD-current users) Subject: Re: Writing CD ROM - tools for FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 21 Jun 96 22:11:01 +0200. <199606212011.WAA22767@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:19:46 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >As Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: >> I would hope so. Since I write my NetBSD CD-ROMs on a DOS box, and >> they read just fine when I get them home. It just wish it wouldn't >> truncate the *$&($*# filenames. >Use BSD to write'em. :) Umm, well. Microsoft, my employer, is not in the hapit of setting up BSD boxes in the labs hooked to the CD-ROM writers. And, I'm not about to go out and buy my own writer. ;-) Actually, I thought I saw that the latest software for the CD-ROM writers runs on Win95, though, so that should at least fix the long filename problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 12:43:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04769 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04764 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA02287; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Bruce Evans cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OK, here it is! [was Re: Whoops! That was a mite premature..] In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 23 Jun 1996 04:53:49 +1000." <199606221853.EAA08924@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 12:42:49 -0700 Message-ID: <2285.835472569@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It works now. Don't break it. I think the way to do it is to go back to > ... > ${.CURDIR}/../cc_int/obj # same as before > ${.CURDIR:S/foo/bar/:S/obj$//}/../cc_int # new I'm not sure that's any less gross than the special case handling we have now. Can we look at this in a second pass? I've got the cases for cc and friends all working just fine using the *existing* `make world framework' and if we want to make it possible for things to start moving around or be selectively "obj'd" then I think that's a separate challenge. The changes I made to cc do work, they just don't allow you to do something which is poorly supported in the tree as it is. > >What's wrong with `cd ${.OBJDIR}'? > > To begin with, it's a syntax error. Shell identifiers can't begin with > a `.'. Huh? Make defines this and expands it before the shell ever gets to it. > Urk. The semantics of ${.OBJDIR} must not change since foreign makefiles > might depend on them. It is more usefule than before since there are now > 3 places where the object directory might be and the new place isn't > obvious. Well, I remain to be convinced that any foreign Makefiles depend on this (I've never seen a single application example), but it's not required to be different in more than 2 places so I'll just add a new variable, .TARGETOBJDIR, which always points to the "desired" obj direcory and .OBJDIR will either point there or at .CURDIR if there's no .TARGETOBJDIR. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 13:21:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA06609 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06604 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA10843; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:19:00 +1000 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:19:00 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606222019.GAA10843@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: OK, here it is! [was Re: Whoops! That was a mite premature..] Cc: current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >What's wrong with `cd ${.OBJDIR}'? >> >> To begin with, it's a syntax error. Shell identifiers can't begin with >> a `.'. >Huh? Make defines this and expands it before the shell ever gets to >it. We're talking about replacing `cd obj' and `ls obj/' with `cd someplace' and `ls someplace'. Only make really knows where the object directory is, so it should tell you if you invoke it with some option. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 13:49:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08195 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08188 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous231.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.231]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA15865; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:42:03 +0200 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA07315; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:20:09 +0200 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:20:09 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199606222020.WAA07315@campa.panke.de> To: Andreas Klemm Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). In-Reply-To: References: <24932.835409971@time.cdrom.com> Reply-to: Wolfram Schneider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andreas Klemm writes: >Do your changes make now or in future possible, to compile the >source tree totally independend from the files in /usr/include >and /usr/share/mk and such, that would allow to compile every >wanted OS Release independently from what is installed in the system.. use chroot(1), this protect your /usr/include etc. >A make world could be made in single user mode and a make install >in single user mode would allow to copy the programs into the >system areas ... That would be great ... Why single user mode? Wolfram From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 14:11:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09270 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.think.com (Mail1.Think.COM [131.239.33.245]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09264 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Early-Bird-1.Think.COM by mail.think.com; Sat, 22 Jun 96 16:49:31 -0400 Received: from compound.Think.COM by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Sat, 22 Jun 96 17:10:46 EDT Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.Think.COM (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02156; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:13:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:13:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Tony Kimball Message-Id: <199606222113.QAA02156@compound.Think.COM> To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de Cc: current@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: tcl -- what's going on here. Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Wolfram Schneider Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:59:16 +0200 You can't remove perl from the main tree ;-))) Many sytem tools are written in perl. Don't waste your time to rewrite them in C because you don't like perl! This misses the point. The point is not that perl is unliked. Perl is almost universally acknowledged as the right tool for its job. The point is that it does not belong in the base system. I will invariably install perl on every system I install, with the exception of those which essentially serve as embedded controllers or routers or the like. But including perl in the base OS inflates the base OS by several megabytes (which one cannot afford in important special cases) locks it into obsolete software, annoys and confuses users of the up-to-date version, and is just plain evil. I suggested that I would be willing to rewrite those few perl kludges which are current. I was rebuffed. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 14:16:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09632 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [206.224.65.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09611 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id QAA18967 for freebsd-current@freefall.cdrom.com; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:16:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob Willcox Message-Id: <199606222116.QAA18967@luke.pmr.com> Subject: Problem w/dump & Archive (Conner) Python tape drives To: freebsd-current@freefall.FreeBSD.org (freebsd-current) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:16:01 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am having problems trying to run dump to either of my Archive Python DAT tape drives (one is an autoloader, the other not). Right at the time dump claims to be dumping the directories dump goes into an infinite wait. If I cancel (via Cntl-C) the dump command the system will eventually require rebooting do to (false?) errors on the disk drive (which is on a different NCR 810 SCSI controller). I have tried this with both of my tape drives and with both an NCR 810 adapter and an Adaptec 2940 adapter with the same results. Writing to/reading from the drives with tar and/or team works fine. The system is a 166MHz Pentium with a Triton 2 MB running -current (as of 6/20). Is anybody out there able to get dump to work with these tape drives (mine are both DDS-2 [4/8gb] drives)? Thanks, -- Bob Willcox bob@luke.pmr.com Austin, TX From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 14:52:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12125 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12120 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA05824; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:51:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Bruce Evans cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OK, here it is! [was Re: Whoops! That was a mite premature..] In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 23 Jun 1996 06:19:00 +1000." <199606222019.GAA10843@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:51:53 -0700 Message-ID: <5822.835480313@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We're talking about replacing `cd obj' and `ls obj/' with `cd someplace' > and `ls someplace'. Only make really knows where the object directory > is, so it should tell you if you invoke it with some option. Aha, I misunderstood you before. This is handled in one of two ways: 1. At the beginning: make obj OBJLINK=yes 2. On the fly: make objlink Which gives you the historical behavior. If OBJLINK is set at cleandir time, the link also goes away. This leaves you out in the cold for CDROMs, of course, so I guess it's only a matter of time before people clammor for a: oh-my-god-where-are-my-objs: @echo "${.OBJDIR}" target so that they can do: pushd `make oh-my-god-where-are-my-objs` :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 15:13:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13116 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moonpie.w8hd.org (moonpie.w8hd.org [198.252.159.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13110 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kimc@localhost) by moonpie.w8hd.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id SAA00456; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:13:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Kim Culhan To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: 960612-SNAP doesn't read users .*? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The default .* files set a path in only the .login file and if I say: echo $path it returns a string which appears to have only a c/r in it. Looks like csh isn't reading the .* files. Also, using the standard syscons (not PCVT) with default everything, the backspace key prints ^H to the screen and the 'delete' key works as a destructive backspace. The installation was done using the boot.flp in the SNAP directory obtaining the files via ftp. Any pointers are greatly appreciated. regards kim -- kimc@w8hd.org From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 16:58:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA18306 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18301 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA01217 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:58:13 -0700 (PDT) To: current@freebsd.org Subject: 3rd time's a charm no-obj-symlink changes! Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:58:13 -0700 Message-ID: <1215.835487893@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OK, so I've incorporated most everyone's suggestions and now we have: make obj # do the new obj behavior make obj OBJLINK=yes # new behavior but also with symlink make objlink # synonym for above - also adds symlink # for existing obj, if it exists. The MAKEOBJDIR variable usage is unchanged since I didn't hear any compelling arguments for not recycling it. I did make ${.OBJDIR} revert back to its previous way of selectively pointing at the obj tree or at ${.CURDIR}, and it's ${.TARGETOBJDIR} which now points, no matter what, at the desired obj dir. Most people should neither know nor care about this. Rather than fill up all your mailboxes with yet another diff, I've also simply stuck them up for ftp. Here, here's a command line to cut-and-paste you lazy people! :-) fetch ftp://time.cdrom.com/pub/no-obj-symlink.diffs.gz Apply them to the top of today's -current and do the sequence I previously outlined (make cleandir, apply patches, make world). I've built the world with these patches and it all (finally) seems to work. Thanks for all the testing so far! Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 21:23:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA28578 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.fsu.edu (upsilon.cs.fsu.edu [128.186.121.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA28571 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cs.fsu.edu (8.6.9/40 ) id EAA28687; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 04:23:27 GMT From: uh@NU.cs.fsu.edu Message-Id: <199606230423.EAA28687@cs.fsu.edu> Subject: make fails To: current@FreeBSD.org Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:23:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I have sup the current src about 3 days ago. I got following make error:- Would you give me any clue on this error? Thanks. Regards, Gang-Ryung Uh (uh@cs.fsu.edu) ====================================== Bootstrapping flex yacc -d /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/parse.y mv -f y.tab.c parse.c mv -f y.tab.h parse.h cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c scan.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/ccl.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/dfa.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/ecs.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/gen.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/main.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/misc.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/nfa.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c parse.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/skel.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/sym.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/tblcmp.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/yylex.c cc -O -I. -I/usr/src/usr.bin/lex -o lex scan.o ccl.o dfa.o ecs.o gen.o \ main.o misc.o nfa.o parse.o skel.o sym.o tblcmp.o yylex.o ===> lib cc -O -c /usr/src/usr.bin/lex/lib/libmain.c -o libmain.o ld: invalid command option `-O' *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 21:57:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA29771 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.250.185]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29766; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA05573; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:55:55 -0700 (PDT) To: uh@NU.cs.fsu.edu cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: make fails In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:23:26 EDT." <199606230423.EAA28687@cs.fsu.edu> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:55:53 -0700 Message-ID: <5571.835505753@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I have sup the current src about 3 days ago. I got following make error:- > Would you give me any clue on this error? you need to rebuild and install the ld program. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Jun 22 22:01:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-current Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA29948 for current-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA29943 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA15839; Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:05:31 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606230535.PAA15839@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Wanted: Testers for an alternate to /usr/obj (as we know it). To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:05:30 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606221401.QAA05748@campa.panke.de> from "Wolfram Schneider" at Jun 22, 96 04:01:43 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wolfram Schneider stands accused of saying: > > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > >In case you ISPs out there haven't twigged to the significance of this > >yet either, with these changes you can now keep a single copy of > >/usr/src up to date for any number of machines, having simultaneous > >`make worlds' run from a single NFS mounted source partition on > >multiple clients with none of the mutual interferance problems we have > >now. That's why *I* wanted this feature, anyway! :-) > > Jordan, > > this already works with the current bsd.obj.mk ;-)))) It does _not_, because you have to _write_ to the source tree to _make_ the symlinks in the first place. Write this with a green magic marker on the back of your head : READ-ONLY SOURCE TREE > Wolfram -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[