From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 00:33:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA07700 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harbor.silcom.com (harbor.silcom.com [199.201.128.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07695; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beach.silcom.com (root@beach.silcom.com [199.201.128.19]) by harbor.silcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA08986; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:34:35 -0700 Received: from zoof.cts.com by beach.silcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id AAA30459; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:33:19 -0700 Received: from zoof.cts.com ([127.0.0.1]) by zoof.cts.com (post.office MTA v2.0 pre-alpha ID# 0-1001) with SMTP id AAA158; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:28:28 -0700 From: pjf@cts.com (Paul Falstad) Message-Id: <9606020028.ZM156@zoof> Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:28:28 -0700 In-Reply-To: Bruce Evans "Re: bugs" (Jun 2, 3:43pm) In-Reply-To: "John S. Dyson" "Re: bugs" (Jun 2, 1:00am) References: <199606020543.PAA12662@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <199606020600.BAA00232@dyson.iquest.net> X-Face: 71i.]_O;=~3NUn@{y'aiw`u/:pGg(SVt6Nmf")$[Uly'p"3qt6-59>6z=!zV|h>&0h0q!K/ [0A|s7Wa:He\e-SK&B~ To: bde@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bugs Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans says: | Subject: Re: bugs | >Hi, here are some problems I encountered while trying to port na | >application to FreeBSD. I have workarounds for all of them, but | >I thought you might like to know. | | Which version of FreeBSD? :-) sorry.. 2.1 off the jan '96 cd from cdrom.com. | This is more or less fixed. setgroups(0, any) now returns EINVAL. It well, that's better I guess. :-) It's not compatible with many other systems though. But setting the group set to nothing is pretty weird I admit. | previously gave no groups or something silly like that. The program | worked right with setgroups(1, gr) (gr[0] = getegid()). That was my workaround. :-) We should probably just use that "workaround" everywhere, since it seems like the correct way to express what we want to happen. John S. Dyson says: | Subject: Re: bugs | MMAP doesn't extend files, AFAIK it doesn't on many (if not most | other OSes.) To set the length of the file you need to do an ftruncate. | After that, then blocks will be allocated as needed. Sorry, I screwed up my example. Here's the real one: ------------------------- #include #include #include main() { int fd = open("newfile", O_RDWR|O_CREAT|O_EXCL, 0660); char *buf; ftruncate(fd, 100); buf = mmap(NULL, 100, PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED, fd, 0); printf("%lx\n", buf); strcpy(buf, "hi!"); } ------------------------- This doesn't work either. The ftruncate() appears not to work; the file is still zero length after the program crashes. So perhaps the problem is with ftruncate() and not mmap(). This works on all of our 10 existing UNIX platforms except BSDI and Linux. BSDI has the same problem with ftruncate, I think; Linux's ftruncate works, but its mmap() appears to be totally broken, at least in 1.2.13. -- Paul Falstad, pjf@cts.com, 805-966-4935, http://www.ttinet.com/pjf/ work: pf@software.com, 805-882-2470, http://www.software.com I bought my brother some gift-wrap for Christmas. I took it to the Gift Wrap department and told them to wrap it, but in a different print so he would know when to stop unwrapping. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 01:14:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA08917 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA08908 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id BAA00495 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:14:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199606020814.BAA00495@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Willow's status? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 01:14:48 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I just installed -current on one of my disks and was wondering who has patches for to build willow? Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 01:47:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA10378 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.aros.net (mailhub.aros.net [205.164.111.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA10373 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.aros.net (terra.aros.net [205.164.111.10]) by mailhub.aros.net (8.7.5/Unknown) with ESMTP id DAA03175 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 03:20:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from angio@localhost) by terra.aros.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) id CAA15040 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 02:47:36 -0600 From: Dave Andersen Message-Id: <199606020847.CAA15040@terra.aros.net> Subject: CCD performance tuning To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 02:47:36 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been playing around with the ccd (2.1-stable) with two quantum grand prix 4gb drives, and the performance improvements I've noticed have been somewhat marginal, if at all. (Performance as measured by bonnie remains at only about 4.3MB/second with the two drives striped). No matter how I tune the interleave, I'm unable to increase this value much -- it remains about the same as that for a single drive. The only thing that does improve is the seeks/second, and even that isn't an amazing improvement. The drives are on an Adaptec 2940UW. P100, triton chipset. Is this more of a motherboard problme, or a dave-is-being-stupid problem? I'm afraid I'm not much of a hardware guru, so I may be overlooking something pretty obvious. -Dave Andersen -- angio@aros.net Complete virtual hosting and business-oriented system administration Internet services. (WWW, FTP, email) http://www.aros.net/ http://www.aros.net/about/virtual "There are only two industries that refer to thier customers as 'users'." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 02:19:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA11416 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 02:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA11407; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 02:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id SAA02645; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 18:18:55 +0900 Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 18:18:55 +0900 Message-Id: <199606020918.SAA02645@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: announce@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, mobile@freebsd.org Cc: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: [FreeBSD PCMCIA] pccard-test-960602 is now available! From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk New version of our PC-card (PCMCIA) package for FreeBSD 2.2-960501-SNAP is now available. You can get it from, ftp://ryukyu.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/pub/FreeBSD/pccard/pccard-test-960602.tar.gz For more detailed information, please open http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa/freebsd-pcmcia/ -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 05:23:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA17145 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 05:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gdwest.gd.com (gdwest.gd.com [134.120.3.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA17140 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 05:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eyfarris@localhost) by gdwest.gd.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) id FAA01241; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 05:24:03 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 05:24:03 -0700 From: Eblan Y Farris Message-Id: <199606021224.FAA01241@gdwest.gd.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu Subject: Re: Pentium Pro 200 PCI chipset? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Henrich wrote: >Does anyone have a simple way to test to see if the PCI chipset on the >Micronics M6Pi motherboard is any good? I believe it is based on the Intel >450kx PCI chipset (at least according to Micronics web page). Charles - call Micronics up and tell them you are standing in front of your motherboard and would like to give them any info they need in describing to you which stepping of the Orion chipset they used in your board. ======================================================================= Eb Farris http://www.surfusa.com/surf/mall.html efarris@surfusa.com Web Pages for Motherboards / Systems ======================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 06:01:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA17886 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wood.helios.nd.edu (hyan@wood.helios.nd.edu [129.74.217.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA17881 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hyan@localhost) by wood.helios.nd.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA07474 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:01:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:01:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Hong Yan (Karen)" To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: unscribe freebsd-hackers-digest Hong Yan hyan@bach.helios.nd.edu In-Reply-To: <199603241346.FAA05362@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk unscribe freebsd-hackers-digest Hong Yan hyan@bach.helios.nd.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 06:48:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA19480 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA19453 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id PAA20792; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:48:02 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA28025; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:48:00 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA19675; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:13:57 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606020813.KAA19675@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: c source grep To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:13:56 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at (Hr.Ladavac) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199605310824.AA057601049@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at> from "Hr.Ladavac" at "May 31, 96 10:24:09 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Hr.Ladavac wrote: > According to Keith Bostic: > Cscope Availability: > > UNIXWare System V Release 4.0 variants such as Sun Solaris 2.x > (/opt/SUNWspro/bin) have version 11.5, and UNIXWare System V > Release 4.1 has version 12.10 with an option for much faster > searching. > > You can buy version 13.3 source with an unrestricted license > for $400 from AT&T Software Solutions by calling +1-800-462-8146. > Binary redistribution of cscope is an additional $1500. > > A bit stiff, but worth it. Keith has included support for cscope tags > into his newer versions of nvi. BTW, nvi is approaching a new release; > I've been testing it and it seems fine. Will there be any substantial interest in such a version? US$ 2000 doesn't sound too much to handle even for a smaller company. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 06:48:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA19517 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA19502 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id PAA20771; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:47:53 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA27998; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:47:36 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA05940; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 09:40:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606020740.JAA05940@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: 2.2 snapshot cdrom To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 09:40:36 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: didier@aida.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "didier@aida.org" at "Jun 1, 96 09:41:34 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As didier@aida.org wrote: > > Is the 2.2 snapshot cdrom available or is it a futur product ? At least the March SNAP. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 06:48:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA19531 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA19508 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id PAA20829; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:48:15 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA28038; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:48:09 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA27938; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:52:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606020852.KAA27938@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: df && du To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:52:08 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: dima@sivka.rdy.com (Dima Ruban) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <960531031628.ZM5998@sivka.rdy.com> from Dima Ruban at "May 31, 96 03:16:27 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Dima Ruban wrote: > I didn't mean, that `du' is broken ... Looks like something > (wu-ftpd or apache) keeps open files or something ... fstat is your friend then. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 06:49:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA19661 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA19656 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id PAA20917; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:48:47 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA28065; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:48:42 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id PAA01229; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:11:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606021311.PAA01229@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Two queries (libcompat.so and timedef()) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:11:24 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: fhackers@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606012029.UAA02321@jraynard.demon.co.uk> from James Raynard at "Jun 1, 96 08:29:48 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As James Raynard wrote: > 1. ftok(). The prototype for this function is missing from > . No big deal, it's probably just an oversight which is It should be in some system header (perhaps in if all else fails), but not in some . The subhierarchy is for declaring _kernel_ interfaces, not library interfaces. It's the primary source of include files for building the kernel. I wonder where SysV did provide the prototype. Perhaps nowhere. :) > On investigation, I have a libcompat.a and a libcompat_p.a on my > system, but no libcompat.so. Intention. It's not worth stuffing legacy functions into a shared lib. > disk. Is this intentional? Also, is there any reason for ftok() to be > in libcompat, when all the other SysV IPC stuff is in libc? It's a userland (i.e. library) thing, not a kernel one. The other SysV stuff in libc is simply the syscall wrappers only (as for all other syscalls). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 07:51:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA23172 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA23165 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 07:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id PAA07217 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:51:02 +0100 (BST) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: PR conf/1270 Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 15:51:00 +0100 Message-ID: <7215.833727060@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone know why the patch in the PR SHOULDN'T be applied? (apart from the fact it makes /etc/ttys massive :-/ ) Perhaps the first 128 pty's should be defined, leaving a note that you have to define the others if you want to have more? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 11:31:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02733 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA02722 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id ad14365; 2 Jun 96 19:30 +0100 Received: from an158.du.pipex.com ([193.130.253.158]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa00245; 2 Jun 96 19:26 +0100 Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id PAA00238; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:22:04 GMT Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:22:04 GMT Message-Id: <199606021522.PAA00238@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: ache@astral.msk.su CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199606020344.HAA00370@astral.msk.su> (ache@astral.msk.su) Subject: Re: Two queries (libcompat.so and timedef()) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 2. timedef(). We have colldef() for LC_COLLATE and mklocale() for > > LC_LOCALE, but apparently nothing for LC_TIME. However, there seems to > > have been a colltime() at one time which was removed about 6 months > > ago. What would be involved in writing one? > > Please, don't point to programs as to functions, it can be confusing... Sorry, I seem to have been a bit muddled when I posted that - and I meant to say timedef, not colldef. 8-( > What we have right now: > > LC_CTYPE -> mklocale > LC_COLLATE -> colldef > LC_TIME -> timedef (/usr/src/share/timedef) OK, thanks, I'll pass that on to the person who was asking. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 11:37:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03043 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hemi.com (hemi.com [204.132.158.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA03026; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mbarkah@localhost) by hemi.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA00954; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:41:18 GMT From: Ade Barkah Message-Id: <199606021241.MAA00954@hemi.com> Subject: Re: Nasty Routing BUG in 2.1R To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:41:17 +0000 () Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606011534.LAA00235@etinc.com> from "Dennis" at Jun 1, 96 11:34:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dennis wrote: > route delete 200.11.1.17 > > /* This causes a panic in the function rtfree(). If you dont delete > the route then the host address is unreachable (you get an arpresolve > error). */ We've hit this bug (or a variation of it) three times in the past week (see my previous message to -hackers.) Our setup looks as follows: ---------------- -------------- | FreeBSD 2.1R | <-- Ethernet --> | Cisco .254 | ---------------- -------------- | <--- PPP connection ------------ | PPP/.252 | ------------ The .252 machine is linked via PPP to the Cisco. It also has its own /26 subnet. For some reason, the .252 machine (a Telebit router) doesn't respond to ping x.x.x.252, but it does respond to pings to IP addresses on its own subnet. Probably a configuration problem at the Telebit end. To crash the FreeBSD system, simply type 'ping x.x.x.252', which generates "/kernel: arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo". I think at this time it also generates an invalid/incomplete routing entry. Sometime later the system tries to purge this entry, and we get panic:rtfree. The bug is quite disturbing since any user can make the system unstable by simply issuing 'ping x.252'. So I set a dumpdev for good measure. Unfortunately, when the machine panicked again, something happened during the subsequent savecore which totally messed up the root partition. (Yippe, that was 4 hours of sweat and panic, trying to patch it back together with customers complaining.) Regards, -Ade ------------------------------------------------------------------- Inet: mbarkah@hemi.com - HEMISPHERE ONLINE - ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 11:43:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03309 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03300 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA22632 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:42:56 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Did people know you could get demo versions of this now? Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 11:42:55 -0700 Message-ID: <22630.833740975@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just in case: http://www.netcon.com/download/download.htm This is "novell server" software for FreeBSD, e.g. you run it and your DOS/novell clients can mount whatever volumes the FreeBSD box sees (since it's done in usermode) in the traditional Novell fashion. It also has a terminal client, printer sharing, remote diagnostic console support, the works. The demo version is free so, if you've got some Novell clients lying around, check it out! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 12:08:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04614 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni-kl.de (stepsun.uni-kl.de [131.246.136.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04582 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alma.student.uni-kl.de by stepsun.uni-kl.de id aa09379; 2 Jun 96 21:07 MET DST Received: from mater.student.uni-kl.de by alma.student.uni-kl.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0uQIUl-0001d0C; Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:07 CETDST Received: by mater.student.uni-kl.de (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uQIUl-0001e8C; Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:07 CETDST Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 21:07:21 +0200 (CETDST) From: Martin Heller To: "Ron G. Minnich" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: coda questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 31 May 1996, Ron G. Minnich wrote: > what degree of threading does it have? > thread per remote computer > enough threads to support demand > thread per exported object > and again, are tehse user-level threads (seems so). > Reason for asking: depending on how much threading, rfork() may do the job. It seems that they're CMU LWP's and if I've got it right they've done some changes to the normal CMU-Mach kernel . They also used their LWP thingies so it won't compile on my FreeBSD hosted MACH4 with Lites1.u3 (missing headers (LWP.h)) . There are also some strange things in their sources (#ifdef __LINUX__) which are probably a hint that it could/was? ported to LINUX. I think you should ask Darren Davis from Novell about the thread problems and which ones are needed or rfork() would do it because he was struck with the threads problem as well and he mailed that NOVELL is somehow interested in Coda . I have only taken a short look at the sources . From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 12:09:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04685 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04664; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA22706; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:07:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Ade Barkah cc: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nasty Routing BUG in 2.1R In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Jun 1996 12:41:17 -0000." <199606021241.MAA00954@hemi.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 12:07:55 -0700 Message-ID: <22704.833742475@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > To crash the FreeBSD system, simply type 'ping x.x.x.252', which > generates "/kernel: arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo". I think at I assume this is 2.1-stable here? > So I set a dumpdev for good measure. Unfortunately, when the > machine panicked again, something happened during the subsequent > savecore which totally messed up the root partition. (Yippe, that Ermm. What's dumpdev pointing at please? We should try and figure out why this happened! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 12:51:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06240 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06230 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 12:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id OAA00608; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:49:38 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199606021949.OAA00608@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: coda questions To: mheller@student.uni-kl.de (Martin Heller) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:49:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Martin Heller" at Jun 2, 96 09:07:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > On Fri, 31 May 1996, Ron G. Minnich wrote: > > > what degree of threading does it have? > > thread per remote computer > > enough threads to support demand > > thread per exported object > > > and again, are tehse user-level threads (seems so). > > Reason for asking: depending on how much threading, rfork() may do the job. > One of the middle-layer VM enhancements that I plan to add for 2.2 is true-shared address spaces. Will this help? John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 13:26:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08216 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08203; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA05589; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:22:02 +1000 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:22:02 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606022022.GAA05589@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PR conf/1270 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Anyone know why the patch in the PR SHOULDN'T be applied? (apart from >the fact it makes /etc/ttys massive :-/ ) Perhaps the first 128 pty's >should be defined, leaving a note that you have to define the others >if you want to have more? It should probably be applied (after testing :-) to -stable, but for -current someone should work on how this is going to work with devfs when there will be an unlimited number of ptys. Each additional statically configured pty currently costs 252 bytes for the tty struct alone, not about 128 bits as guessed in the PR. A default of 32 would still be reasonable. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 13:30:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08796 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from central.picker.com (central.picker.com [144.54.31.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA08777 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ct.picker.com by central.picker.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0uQJj5-0004rmC; Sun, 2 Jun 96 16:26 EDT Received: from elmer.picker.com ([144.54.52.5]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28598; Sun, 2 Jun 96 16:26:02 EDT Received: by elmer.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA26731; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:26:52 -0400 From: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) Message-Id: <199606022026.QAA26731@elmer.picker.com> Subject: automounter hangs on boot (possible bug found) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: rhh@ct.picker.com Organization: Picker International, CT Division X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk PROBLEM: I believe I've found a possible bug in the way netmasks are computed in amd, but I'd appreciate it if someone could confirm this (I'm not a networking expert). The bug in question causes a few spurious DNS lookups which, on my dial-up subnet, hangs the machine for a while during boot while the DNS requests issued by amd time out. I went looking for the cause, and it as well as workarounds I've found are detailed below. The specific network setup I'm working with is: Subnet Mask : 255.255.255.240 (4-bit hostids) Router Host elmer : 144.54.61.1, 144.54.61,17 (3 interfaces) Host stealth : 144.54.61.10 (interface 1) Host voyager : 144.54.61.18 (interface 2) Dial-up host (interface 3) I have the following entry in /etc/networks on all machines: net1 144.54.61.0 net2 144.54.61.16 elmer is a router to several subnets. stealth is on "net1" and voyager is on "net2". When I start amd on voyager, it does a getnetbyaddr (usr.sbin/amd/amd/wire.c:getwire()) on the network 144.54.61.16 as one would expect. It finds this in /etc/networks so it doesn't need to ping the DNS server for this information. However, when I start amd on stealth, it does a getnetbyaddr on the network "0.144.54.61", which it "doesn't" find in the file, so it falls back and and does a gethostbyaddr on 144.54.61.0. This results in two PTR? queries which also fail or time out (depending on whether the dial-up link is up or not). CAUSE: The underlying problem seems to be that wire.c:getwire() doesn't determine "mask" correctly when the number of bits in the hostid isn't 8. For Class B addresses, it starts with the 0xFFFF0000 netmask and increases that 8 bits at a time (?why?). It computes this mask from the subnet (?), and then applies it TO the subnet. In net1's case above it ends up with a 0xFFFFFFFF mask and in "net2"'s case it ends up with a 0xFFFFFF00 mask. I don't know whether this is a bug, or correct (albeit strange) behavior documented in an RFC somewhere. To compute mask, why not start with the raw subnet "mask" (as opposed to subnet address), and shift it right 8 bits so long as the low 8 bits are 0? WORKAROUNDS: I'd be interested in the right thing to do if anyone can tell me. One work-around for now is to just put a (seemingly) bogus net1 entry in /etc/networks: net1 144.54.61 net2 144.54.61.16 Another is to just "ifconfig down" the route to the DNS server on subnet machines while they're bringing up amd :). Any advice, pointers, or corrections regarding this would be appreciated. Randall Hopper rhh@ct.picker.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 13:56:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10524 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10509; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA06199; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:52:32 +1000 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:52:32 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606022052.GAA06199@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@freebsd.org, pjf@cts.com Subject: Re: bugs Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >| Subject: Re: bugs >| MMAP doesn't extend files, AFAIK it doesn't on many (if not most >| other OSes.) To set the length of the file you need to do an ftruncate. >| After that, then blocks will be allocated as needed. >Sorry, I screwed up my example. Here's the real one: >------------------------- >#include >#include >#include >main() >{ > int fd = open("newfile", O_RDWR|O_CREAT|O_EXCL, 0660); > char *buf; > ftruncate(fd, 100); > buf = mmap(NULL, 100, PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED, fd, 0); > printf("%lx\n", buf); > strcpy(buf, "hi!"); >} >------------------------- >This doesn't work either. The ftruncate() appears not to work; the file >is still zero length after the program crashes. So perhaps the problem >is with ftruncate() and not mmap(). >This works on all of our 10 existing UNIX platforms except BSDI and >Linux. BSDI has the same problem with ftruncate, I think; Linux's >ftruncate works, but its mmap() appears to be totally broken, at least >in 1.2.13. The ftruncate() works if a prototype for ftruncate() is in scope or if the `length' arg to ftruncate has the correct type (off_t = long long). Otherwise the top 32 bits of the length are random. ftruncate() is prototyped in . You should also include before including . The above happens to work because bogusly includes . You should also include instead of except on old systems. The strcpy() doesn't work unless PROT_WRITE is changed to `PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE', and this isn't because strcpy() reads its target - `buf[0] = 1' fails in the same way. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 13:56:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10579 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beta.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (beta.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10548; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by beta.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA03344; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 22:56:06 +0200 From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199606022056.WAA03344@beta.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: Re: Nasty Routing BUG in 2.1R To: mbarkah@hemi.com (Ade Barkah) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 22:56:06 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: dennis@etinc.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606021241.MAA00954@hemi.com> from "Ade Barkah" at Jun 2, 96 12:41:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Dennis wrote: > > route delete 200.11.1.17 > > > > /* This causes a panic in the function rtfree(). If you dont delete > > the route then the host address is unreachable (you get an arpresolve > > error). */ > > We've hit this bug (or a variation of it) three times in the past > week (see my previous message to -hackers.) > > Our setup looks as follows: > > ---------------- -------------- > | FreeBSD 2.1R | <-- Ethernet --> | Cisco .254 | > ---------------- -------------- > | <--- PPP connection > ------------ > | PPP/.252 | > ------------ > > The .252 machine is linked via PPP to the Cisco. It also has its own > /26 subnet. For some reason, the .252 machine (a Telebit router) > doesn't respond to ping x.x.x.252, but it does respond to pings to > IP addresses on its own subnet. Probably a configuration problem at > the Telebit end. > > To crash the FreeBSD system, simply type 'ping x.x.x.252', which > generates "/kernel: arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo". I think at > this time it also generates an invalid/incomplete routing entry. > Sometime later the system tries to purge this entry, and we get > panic:rtfree. Hi, I had a very similar problem a while ago -- actually it still exists. (running 2.0 and 2.1-RELEASE) We have a modem connected to our server and some of us have our 'own' IP addresses for the machines at home. If you are on the net it works fine, but when you terminate the SLIP connection and e.g. some mail arrives you get the bad routing entry. 134.147.6.18 134.147.6.1 UGHS 0 0 ed1 % ping 134.147.6.18 PING 134.147.6.18 (134.147.6.18): 56 data bytes 2 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss 134.147.6.18 134.147.6.18 UGHMS 1 2 ed1 However, I observed that the machine does not crash when I _change_ the route instead of deleting it. % route change 134.147.6.18 134.147.6.1 change host 134.147.6.18: gateway 134.147.6.1 134.147.6.18 134.147.6.18 UGHMS 0 2 ed1 Therefore, I run every 20min the following ugly sh-script: netstat -rn | grep UGH | while read n1 n2 nn do if [ $n1 = $n2 ]; then logger -p cron.notice "Resetting route for $n1" /sbin/route change $n1 134.147.6.1 fi done I see that this is just a work around, but at least the net runs. BTW, a SysVr3.2 (ISC-2.2) machine produces also those 'wrong' route entries. However it does not crash when it is deleted. Ciao, Robert -- Robert Eckardt ( Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Inst.f.Theor.Physik, NB6/169 ) Universitaetsstrasse 150, D-44780 Bochum, Germany ----X---8---- Telefon: +49 234 700 3709, Telefax: +49 234 700 3712 8 E-Mail: RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de --------8---- URL: http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/ >>> Fuer die einen ist es bloss ein Betriebssystem, <<< >>> fuer die anderen ist es der laengste Virus der Welt. .... Windows 95 <<< Privat: Steinbrink 22, D-45355 Essen, Germany -====- Telefon: +49 201 678602 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 14:07:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11129 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11122 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA03502 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:12:29 -0700 Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA01983 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:10:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199606022010.NAA01983@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 to: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Willow's status? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Jun 1996 01:14:48 PDT." <199606020814.BAA00495@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 13:10:11 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Amancio Hasty Jr." : > > Hi, > > I just installed -current on one of my disks and was wondering who > has patches for to build willow? > Hi, I downloaded fbsd_twin_960306.diffs from throck.com however it is missing ExecFreeBSD.c. So does anyone has an ExecFreeBSD.c for TWIN/XPDK?? Also, I went to ftp.willows.com and I didn't see anything about FreeBSD :( Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 14:16:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11456 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11438; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.2/1.0/WV) id RAA24591; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:11:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA22208; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:11:27 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA18960; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:16:26 GMT Message-Id: <199606021716.RAA18960@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Bruce Evans Cc: gpalmer@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PR conf/1270 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Jun 1996 06:22:02 +1000." <199606022022.GAA05589@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 17:16:26 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In <199606022022.GAA05589@godzilla.zeta.org.au> , you wrote: > >Anyone know why the patch in the PR SHOULDN'T be applied? (apart from > >the fact it makes /etc/ttys massive :-/ ) Perhaps the first 128 pty's > >should be defined, leaving a note that you have to define the others > >if you want to have more? > > It should probably be applied (after testing :-) to -stable, but for > -current someone should work on how this is going to work with devfs > when there will be an unlimited number of ptys. > > Each additional statically configured pty currently costs 252 bytes > for the tty struct alone, not about 128 bits as guessed in the PR. > A default of 32 would still be reasonable. That's the problem right there. The tty structure (and anything else required by the pty driver) should be dynanmically allocated on first open and closed on last close. Then keep a list of pointers to softc structures inside the pty driver indexed by minor number. It's even releatively make this list dynamic as well so it grows as it needs to. I implemented something similar for Digital UNIX when I did the it's initial LAT implementation. Under ULTRIX, I was quite sick & tired of having to rebuild the kernel for a more lat devices. So in Digital UNIX I got the infrastructure changed to make it possible. If you wanted more LAT ttys, all you had to do is make the /dev entries for them. Looking at FreeBSD, it looks like it could support doing the above today rather easily. -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 14:27:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11980 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11975 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uQKg5-0004KrC; Sun, 2 Jun 96 14:27 PDT Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:27:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: Bruce Evans cc: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, mrm@MARMOT.Mole.ORG, mrm@MARMOT.Mole.ORG Subject: Re: TARGET_NO_FANCY_MATH_387 In-Reply-To: <199605311732.DAA13967@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Jun 1996, Bruce Evans wrote: > Making a new libm with HAVE_FPU set in /etc/make.conf should be sufficient. > This isn't the default since it has the same problems as -mfancy-math-i387. > > User times for 1e6 fsqrt(2.0)'s on a P133: > > default libm (shared): 11.65 seconds > HAVE_FPU libm (shared): 1.18 > HAVE_FPU libm (static): 1.11 > -mfancy-math-387: 0.68 > home made inline fsqrt: 0.64 # (1) > -mfancy-math-387 -ffast-math: 0.07 # (2) > > (1) Another reason for gcc not to inline things is that it's easy to write > your own inline functions. > (2) fsqrt(2.0) is recognized as a loop invariant and only calculated once. > The time is just for counting to 1e6. Those performance gains are substantial! Although I don't do anything math-intensive with FreeBSD, I still wish I had known about HAVE_FPU earlier. This _really_ needs to be a FAQ or even mentioned during sysinstall. Therefore, I suggest we build two different versions of libm, and have sysinstall link to the correct one depending on whether the user has a math coprocessor or not (we could ask, or possibly probe the system for this information). Eventually, we can do a similar thing with Pentium-optimized versions of this and libc (bcopy, bzero, etc). Comments? ---Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 14:50:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13174 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13168 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uQL2m-0004KsC; Sun, 2 Jun 96 14:50 PDT Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:50:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: McAfee ViruScan for Linux works on FreeBSD.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Last night I looked at McAfee's FTP site for the latest NT virus scanner (disappointing, the command-line version crashed on me when I ran it), and discovered there is a Linux version available. Today I downloaded it and tried the ELF version on FreeBSD-current (there is also an a.out version). It works great! If anyone is serving DOS files using FreeBSD (or Linux of course), whether through HTTP, NFS, Netware, WFW, or whatever, this is probably a good tool to have. Also, if you have a dual-boot machine, it's probably faster to mount your MSDOS partition and check it (perhaps in a cron job or /etc/daily) from FreeBSD, than to ViruScan it from within DOS! ---Jake P.S. All of these programs check for DOS viruses, as far as I know there are no NT or Linux viruses floating around. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 14:53:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13308 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13267; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA25824; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606022153.OAA25824@kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: DTP PM2144 cards Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 14:53:24 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So I was talking to some hardware people and they said that DTP's PM2144W cards with the RC4040 disk cache were the thing you wanted for blindingly fast disk subsystems. Can anyone in this community provide any independent confirmation of these claims? "Is there support in the kernel?" ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet The original purpose of cultivating restraint is so that eventually... one will not need to have restraint. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 14:53:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13314 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13274; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA25829; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606022153.OAA25829@kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: DTP PM2144 cards Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 14:53:25 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So I was talking to some hardware people and they said that DTP's PM2144W cards with the RC4040 disk cache were the thing you wanted for blindingly fast disk subsystems. Can anyone in this community provide any independent confirmation of these claims? "Is there support in the kernel?" ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet The original purpose of cultivating restraint is so that eventually... one will not need to have restraint. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 15:23:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14141 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from central.picker.com (central.picker.com [144.54.31.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14136 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ct.picker.com by central.picker.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0uQLQS-0004rpC; Sun, 2 Jun 96 18:15 EDT Received: from elmer.picker.com ([144.54.52.5]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03752; Sun, 2 Jun 96 18:14:55 EDT Received: by elmer.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA26956; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 18:15:45 -0400 From: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) Message-Id: <199606022215.SAA26956@elmer.picker.com> Subject: Re: automounter hangs on boot (possible bug found) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 18:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: rhh@ct.picker.com Organization: Picker International, CT Division X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk By the way, this problem was on stock 2.1.0R, but the relevent module from amd (wire.c) is identical to the one in -current. Randall Hopper rhh@ct.picker.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 15:24:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14203 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zen.nash.org ([204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14197; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by zen.nash.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id RAA23224; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:25:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:25:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606022225.RAA23224@zen.nash.org> From: Alex Nash To: pjf@cts.com Cc: bde@freebsd.org, dyson@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bugs Reply-to: alex@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Sorry, I screwed up my example. Here's the real one: > >------------------------- >#include >#include >#include > >main() >{ > int fd = open("newfile", O_RDWR|O_CREAT|O_EXCL, 0660); > char *buf; > ftruncate(fd, 100); > buf = mmap(NULL, 100, PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED, fd, 0); > printf("%lx\n", buf); > strcpy(buf, "hi!"); >} >------------------------- > >This doesn't work either. The ftruncate() appears not to work; the file >is still zero length after the program crashes. So perhaps the problem >is with ftruncate() and not mmap(). > >This works on all of our 10 existing UNIX platforms except BSDI and >Linux. BSDI has the same problem with ftruncate, I think; Linux's >ftruncate works, but its mmap() appears to be totally broken, at least >in 1.2.13. TRUNCATE(2) FreeBSD Programmer's Manual TRUNCATE(2) [...] DESCRIPTION Truncate() causes the file named by path or referenced by fd to be trun- cated to at most length bytes in size. ^^^^^^^ Richard Stevens (APUE) has the following notes on truncate (see page 92): These two functions are provided by SVR4 and 4.3+BSD. They are not part of POSIX.1 or XPG3. SVR4 truncates or extends a file. 4.3+BSD only truncates a file with these functions -- they can't be used to extend a file. As far as mmap is concerned, you cannot write beyond 'len' bytes as specified in the call to mmap. (In reality, under FreeBSD 2.1R you can write up to the next 4K page and get away with it. Linux 1.2.13 is even less stringent.) Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 15:36:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14622 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14617; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA09273; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:33:50 +1000 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:33:50 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606022233.IAA09273@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, matt@lkg.dec.com Subject: Re: PR conf/1270 Cc: gpalmer@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Each additional statically configured pty currently costs 252 bytes >> for the tty struct alone, not about 128 bits as guessed in the PR. >> A default of 32 would still be reasonable. >That's the problem right there. The tty structure (and anything else >required by the pty driver) should be dynanmically allocated on first >open and closed on last close. Then keep a list of pointers to softc >structures inside the pty driver indexed by minor number. It's even >releatively make this list dynamic as well so it grows as it needs to. There is a problem with dangling pointers. See kern_exit.c: /* * s_ttyp is not zero'd; we use this to indicate * that the session once had a controlling terminal. * (for logging and informational purposes) */ and some things follow the pointer for closed devices. Perhaps only applications like ptstat -t. pstat also wants to work with an array of tty structs. The same problems interfere with dynamic allocation of tty structs for hardware ttys, but there is less to be gained by dynamic allocation in this case. The closed tty structs are a good place for holding statstics and the state for the next open (they don't actually hold much of it now). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 15:52:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA15576 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA15566; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA09679; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:48:16 +1000 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:48:16 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606022248.IAA09679@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: alex@freebsd.org, pjf@cts.com Subject: Re: bugs Cc: bde@freebsd.org, dyson@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >TRUNCATE(2) FreeBSD Programmer's Manual TRUNCATE(2) >[...] > DESCRIPTION > Truncate() causes the file named by path or referenced by fd to be trun- > cated to at most length bytes in size. > ^^^^^^^ >Richard Stevens (APUE) has the following notes on truncate (see page >92): > These two functions are provided by SVR4 and 4.3+BSD. They are not > part of POSIX.1 or XPG3. > SVR4 truncates or extends a file. 4.3+BSD only truncates a file with > these functions -- they can't be used to extend a file. Extension is supposed to work now. This seems to be standard in 4.4Lite. ISTR it not working in FreeBSD-1.1. The man page is still misleading in 4.4Lite2. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 16:02:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16022 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA16016 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA10457; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:56:45 +1000 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:56:45 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606022256.IAA10457@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, jehamby@lightside.com Subject: Re: TARGET_NO_FANCY_MATH_387 Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, mrm@MARMOT.Mole.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Those performance gains are substantial! Although I don't do anything >math-intensive with FreeBSD, I still wish I had known about HAVE_FPU >earlier. This _really_ needs to be a FAQ or even mentioned during >sysinstall. Therefore, I suggest we build two different versions of libm, >and have sysinstall link to the correct one depending on whether the user >has a math coprocessor or not (we could ask, or possibly probe the system >for this information). Eventually, we can do a similar thing with >Pentium-optimized versions of this and libc (bcopy, bzero, etc). I plan to select each function at runtime. This is good enough for the kernel. Other methods require too much duplication of the parts that don't vary. For the FPU this has been planned but not implemented for years :-(. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 16:32:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19098 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harbor.silcom.com (harbor.silcom.com [199.201.128.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19092; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beach.silcom.com (root@beach.silcom.com [199.201.128.19]) by harbor.silcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA05123; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:33:48 -0700 Received: from zoof.cts.com by beach.silcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id QAA21127; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:31:42 -0700 Received: from zoof.cts.com ([127.0.0.1]) by zoof.cts.com (post.office MTA v2.0 pre-alpha ID# 0-1001) with SMTP id AAA131; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:29:31 -0700 From: pjf@cts.com (Paul Falstad) Message-Id: <9606021629.ZM129@zoof> Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:29:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: Bruce Evans "Re: bugs" (Jun 3, 6:52am) In-Reply-To: Alex Nash "Re: bugs" (Jun 2, 5:25pm) References: <199606022052.GAA06199@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <199606022225.RAA23224@zen.nash.org> X-Face: ECcdcE"#6HK`bju2deH)DfABe@eZcG/9(w';j/n-Hat1joHF.d|1HwhhOBX+3{zjfAH$@C@ og1k*RjD=WSww/5"ZDk_FIabxydm\%u*)TDP@Q;Ag5'p@lnm*0LV(zcvPE<=X~nnL2g(f3t;>pjz#a `{^{6TBs5x~x(Z/R[VT@k"oW!][:+eW{Lj!*v{B/iCyOrx1x:|6}y_G@Z,qe$3)P\Da[_W!fTGW$Kr "pn#Y7SrNc5VAoh3qD5WHlWhC`]\n-W:Hl9Xj,6.-DPr&]NcLeP"a^Z83F-|QJ3|Y1Km)UB&p+ruM$ jc X-Anagram: Salad, Flat Up X-Shakespearean-Insult: Thou mangled fen-sucked clack-dish! X-Face-Info: Fly comedian from the Far Side Reply-To: Paul Falstad To: bde@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bugs Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans says: | Subject: Re: bugs | The ftruncate() works if a prototype for ftruncate() is in scope or if | the `length' arg to ftruncate has the correct type (off_t = long long). | Otherwise the top 32 bits of the length are random. ftruncate() is | prototyped in . You should also include before | including . The above happens to work because | bogusly includes . You should also include | instead of except on old systems. Sorry, bogus example again. Our real code has a proper set of #includes. | The strcpy() doesn't work unless PROT_WRITE is changed to | `PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE', and this isn't because strcpy() reads its | target - `buf[0] = 1' fails in the same way. Interesting. Well, that's a simple enough workaround... Alex Nash says: | Subject: Re: bugs | >This works on all of our 10 existing UNIX platforms except BSDI and | >Linux. BSDI has the same problem with ftruncate, I think; Linux's | >ftruncate works, but its mmap() appears to be totally broken, at least | >in 1.2.13. | | TRUNCATE(2) FreeBSD Programmer's Manual TRUNCATE(2) | [...] | DESCRIPTION | Truncate() causes the file named by path or referenced by fd to be trun- | cated to at most length bytes in size. | ^^^^^^^ All I can say is that your ftruncate() seems to work right (i.e. the same as everyone else) in spite of the documentation. :-) | As far as mmap is concerned, you cannot write beyond 'len' bytes as | specified in the call to mmap. [...] Nor would I wish to. -- Another problem: % vidcontrol VGA_80x50 Cannot set videomode: Invalid argument VGA_80x25 and VGA_40x25 work fine, for what it's worth. -- Paul Falstad, pjf@cts.com, 805-966-4935, http://www.ttinet.com/pjf/ work: pf@software.com, 805-882-2470, http://www.software.com Williams and Holland's Law: If enough data is collected, anything may be proven by statistical methods. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 16:52:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19915 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19896; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA13618; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606022352.QAA13618@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Dave Hayes cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DTP PM2144 cards In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 02 Jun 96 14:53:25 -0700. <199606022153.OAA25829@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 16:52:15 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >So I was talking to some hardware people and they said that DTP's >PM2144W cards with the RC4040 disk cache were the thing you wanted >for blindingly fast disk subsystems. >Can anyone in this community provide any independent confirmation >of these claims? "Is there support in the kernel?" Not yet. Wait and you shall receive... :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 17:06:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA20424 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20419; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA12871; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:05:14 +1000 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:05:14 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606030005.KAA12871@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@freebsd.org, pjf@cts.com Subject: Re: bugs Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Another problem: >% vidcontrol VGA_80x50 >Cannot set videomode: Invalid argument >VGA_80x25 and VGA_40x25 work fine, for what it's worth. You have to previously load an 8 bit high font for 50 lines. E.g., using `vidcontrol -f 8x8 /usr/share/syscons/fonts/iso-8x8.fnt'. The font path can be abbreviated to iso-8x8. The path searching doesn't seem to be documented. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 17:29:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA21808 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hemi.com (hemi.com [204.132.158.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21780; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mbarkah@localhost) by hemi.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA07943; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 18:33:30 GMT From: Ade Barkah Message-Id: <199606021833.SAA07943@hemi.com> Subject: Re: Nasty Routing BUG in 2.1R To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 18:33:29 +0000 () Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <22704.833742475@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 2, 96 12:07:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > To crash the FreeBSD system, simply type 'ping x.x.x.252', which > > generates "/kernel: arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo". ... > > I assume this is 2.1-stable here? Here's from uname -a: | FreeBSD hemi.com 2.1.0-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #1: Sun Apr 28 | 10:35:33 MDT 1996 root@hemi.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/KERNEL i386 It's pretty much the stock 2.1-R kernel with minor modifications to bind() to restrict access only to users in a certain group. > > ... something happened during the subsequent savecore which totally > > messed up the root partition. ... > > Ermm. What's dumpdev pointing at please? We should try and figure > out why this happened! kern.dumpdev = sd0s2b /dev/sd0s2b none swap sw 0 0 The savecore was ran manually about 1 hour after the system came back up. The machine crashed during the savecore and that was pretty much the end of the / filesystem (incidently, the savecore was to the /usr filesystem.) We were able to get key files from /etc, but many of the binaries were corrupted, and the system hopelessly hangs somewhere after device probes are completed and before /etc/rc gets run. We replaced all the binaries by untarring fresh copies from the 2.1-R cd-rom. Thanks, -Ade ------------------------------------------------------------------- Inet: mbarkah@hemi.com - HEMISPHERE ONLINE - ------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 17:31:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22232 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zen.nash.org ([204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA22223; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by zen.nash.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id TAA23464; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 19:32:45 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 19:32:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606030032.TAA23464@zen.nash.org> From: Alex Nash To: pjf@cts.com Cc: bde@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bugs Reply-to: nash@mcs.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > All I can say is that your ftruncate() seems to work right (i.e. the same > as everyone else) in spite of the documentation. :-) Given that 4.3+BSD doesn't extend the file, I would hardly say it works the same as everyone else. > > As far as mmap is concerned, you cannot write beyond 'len' bytes as > > specified in the call to mmap. [...] > > Nor would I wish to. Sorry, I'd lost your original message and I thought you said you were trying to use mmap to extend the file. Just call me Mr. Short Term Memory :) Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 17:47:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22892 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22887 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net (relay-4.mail.demon.net [158.152.1.108]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA04445 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:47:07 -0700 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id aa29557; 3 Jun 96 0:45 GMT Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa25007; 3 Jun 96 1:08 +0100 Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA02832; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 22:54:06 GMT Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 22:54:06 GMT Message-Id: <199606022254.WAA02832@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199606021311.PAA01229@uriah.heep.sax.de> (message from J Wunsch on Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:11:24 +0200 (MET DST)) Subject: Re: Two queries (libcompat.so and timedef()) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 1. ftok(). The prototype for this function is missing from > > . No big deal, it's probably just an oversight which is > > It should be in some system header (perhaps in if all > else fails), but not in some . The subhierarchy > is for declaring _kernel_ interfaces, not library interfaces. It's > the primary source of include files for building the kernel. OK, I just mentioned because that's what was in the man page. Perhaps it might be worth having something like as there are a couple of other functions in libcompat that aren't prototyped in the headers as far as I can see (eg getpw()). > I wonder where SysV did provide the prototype. Perhaps nowhere. :) Well, apparently they put its man page under stdipc(3C), so your guess is as good as mine 8-) > Intention. It's not worth stuffing legacy functions into a shared > lib. > > It's a userland (i.e. library) thing, not a kernel one. The other > SysV stuff in libc is simply the syscall wrappers only (as for all > other syscalls). Understood. Thanks. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 19:09:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA25534 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 19:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (fub46.fddi1.fu-berlin.de [160.45.1.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA25523 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 19:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.29.1) id ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 04:09:04 +0200 (MES) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 04:09:04 +0200 (MES) From: gusw@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Gunther Schadow) To: deborah@microunity.com, gusw@zedat.fu-berlin.de Subject: Re: Adaptec 2940 U makes fatal bus resets! Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yeah! I cut off that problem, finally! And there is some more to say about timeout timers/counters ... please read on. My first posting for help: >> Hi, >> my new machine has an Adaptech 2940 Ultra SCSI host adapter with >> an IBM DORS SCSI2 (2 GB) disk, a CD ROM and a DAT drive attached to >> it. Now, when I write to the DAT, everything seems O.K., however, >> when trying to read, I sometimes get: >> ahc0: target 6, lun 0 (st0) timed out >> st0(ahc0:6:0): BUS DEVICE RESET message queued >> and then: >> st0(ahc0:6:0): Target Busy >> I can't figure out, what is wrong here, since sometimes reading works >> just fine. my only answer I've got: > Did you see my posting on almost the same day reporting > problems with the same controller as you have and > a CD-ROM drive? I can get the machine to boot, but > when I mount from the CD I see the exact same error > messages as you do. From our mutual problems, I suspect > the problem is with the controller, not the SCSI > devices attached. The controller is rather new. > I don't have the ability to submit a problem report > using send-pr right now - do you? Have you submitted > a report yet? Did you get any response? > I am copying this reply to the freebsd-hackers list > in hope that someone there might already be working on > the problem, or be interested enough to read the > two articles in the newsgroup before they expire. > -deborah bennett Now, the good news: SCSI BUS DEVICE RESET Problems seem to be fixed I was going mad, since the upgrade to a new Pentium 133MHz with AHC 2790 Ultra and finally from FreeBSD-1.1.5 to 2.1-RELEASE turned out to be a bad deal! I never ever had such a short mean time between two breakdowns of our fine BSD! In the last couple of hours, the system was up for no more than one hour -- not even 386BSD-0.0new was so unstabile! I thus made a 2.2-960501-SNAP kernel and tried it out -- nothing went better with the new kernel. So, I had to help myself: The problem, and the fixes for it -- yes, it seems like I fixed the problem -- point into a major problem that FreeBSD might have particularly on fast machines: timeout timers or counters seem to be initialized too small, and thus, timeout states occur prematurely. Two evidences from different parts of the kernel: (1) the fdc driver and (2) the aic7xxx driver. (1) FDC driver Please look at this (i386/isa/fdc.c): int in_fdc(fdcu_t fdcu) { int baseport = fdc_data[fdcu].baseport; int i, j = 100000; while ((i = inb(baseport+FDSTS) & (NE7_DIO|NE7_RQM)) != (NE7_DIO|NE7_RQM) && j-- > 0) if (i == NE7_RQM) return fdc_err(fdcu, "ready for output in input\n"); if (j <= 0) return fdc_err(fdcu, "input ready timeout\n"); ... This is obviously a counter, not a timer. My machine is fast, it counts considerably more in the same amount of time, and thus results in nasty timeouts (that even lock the machine sometimes) We need to depend the init value of j on the speed of the machine. And, after all, we shouldn't just count and block the whole machine from doing better things. Insert a tsleep()! I don't have time to fix this now, so I just append a 0 to the counter init value. This is part of my work-around of the timeout counter bug that resides in in_fdc(), fd_in(), and fd_out() First I define a constant with the counter value times 10, for a basic safety, such that it can be predefined as an option in the config file. I use the old value 100000 for my i486/33 ISA machine, and the times 10 value for the i586/133 PCI -- the timeouts didn't occur since I did this! But one can clearly watch the machine hang for a few milliseconds, when e.g. fdformat(8) is running (see how the regular blinking of the cursor stucks) -- I bet that a tsleep() instead of the counter would fix this for ever. #ifndef FDC_TIMEOUT_CNT # define FDC_TIMEOUT_CNT 1000000; /* added a 0 for safety */ #endif ... in_fdc(fdcu_t fdcu) { int baseport = fdc_data[fdcu].baseport; int i, j = FDC_TIMEOUT_CNT /* definition above in this file (GS) */; while ((i = inb(baseport+FDSTS) & (NE7_DIO|NE7_RQM)) != (NE7_DIO|NE7_RQM) && j-- > 0) if (i == NE7_RQM) ... int out_fdc(fdcu_t fdcu, int x) { int baseport = fdc_data[fdcu].baseport; int i; /* Check that the direction bit is set */ i = FDC_TIMEOUT_CNT /* dito GS */; while ((inb(baseport+FDSTS) & NE7_DIO) && i-- > 0); if (i <= 0) return fdc_err(fdcu, "direction bit not set\n"); /* Check that the floppy controller is ready for a command */ i = FDC_TIMEOUT_CNT /* dito GS */; while ((inb(baseport+FDSTS) & NE7_RQM) == 0 && i-- > 0); if (i <= 0) return fdc_err(fdcu, "output ready timeout\n"); O.K. that's for the FD controller driver, but the real nasty thing will be fixed now! (2) the PCI ahc driver (i386/scsi/aic7xxx.c) I experienced regular accidents with the following message: ahc0: target 6, lun 0 (st0) timed out st0(ahc0:6:0): BUS DEVICE RESET message queued. st0(ahc0:6:0): Target Busy last message repeated 23 times and even worse ahc0: target 0, lun 0 (sd0) timed out sd0(ahc0:0:0): BUS DEVICE RESET message queued. and (since this is my /, /usr, and swap disk ?), the machine will never recover from this and eventually hangs or panics, anyway leaving a damaged filesystem behind (fortunately the ufs code is so robust that damages are never fatal). I decided that this accident is closely related to swap activities, since it does not happen partuicularly when there is high load on machine and disk, but, when there is almost no activity, but some processes hanging around waiting and eventually swaped out ... and ... BANG!, game over! :-( O.K. since I no longer trust the time/tick/hz management and proper adjustment of my kernel to high CPU speeds, I decided to just increase the timeout values by the same factor of 10. #define TOFACT 10 /* Time Out FACTor */ then search for any timeout() function call and increase the 3rd parameter, which seems to be the timer value by that factor, e.g. like here: void ahc_scb_timeout(unit, ahc, scb) ... scb->datalen[1] = 0; scb->datalen[2] = 0; outb(SCBCNT + iobase, 0x80); outsb(SCBARRAY+iobase,scb,SCB_DOWN_SIZE); outb(SCBCNT + iobase, 0); ahc_add_waiting_scb(iobase, scb, list_second); timeout(ahc_timeout, (caddr_t)scb, ( TOFACT * 2 * hz)); ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ #ifdef AHC_DEBUG if(ahc_debug & AHC_SHOWABORTS) { sc_print_addr(scb->xs->sc_link); printf("BUS DEVICE RESET message queued.\n"); ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This was the last message before the kernel suicided Now, I thik (hope) that I finally cut out this problem. But let me suggest you kernel gurus out there to think about the timing problem with fast CPUs. I've already seen some messages about clock adjustment when I booted my 2.2-*-SNAP kernel, but in any way, that didn't help, and the FDC driver doesn't even use any timer value, not even the wrong initialized hz. It just counts down! Anyway, thank you for that great work on FreeBSD! regards Gunther Schadow PS: the, sound blaster driver has a bug as well: it won't compile with option JAZZ16, since JAZZ_DMA16 (used in i386/isa/sound/sb_dsp.c) is never defined. I think that these lines belong into sound_config.h: #ifdef JAZZ16 #define JAZZ_DMA16 1 #endif at least, that worked for me. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 20:57:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA00718 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 20:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA00712 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 20:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA22079; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:52:44 +1000 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:52:44 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606030352.NAA22079@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: deborah@microunity.com, gusw@zedat.fu-berlin.de Subject: Re: Adaptec 2940 U makes fatal bus resets! Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I thus made a 2.2-960501-SNAP kernel and tried it out -- nothing went >better with the new kernel. So, I had to help myself: The problem, and >the fixes for it -- yes, it seems like I fixed the problem -- point >into a major problem that FreeBSD might have particularly on fast >machines: timeout timers or counters seem to be initialized too small, Maybe. >and thus, timeout states occur prematurely. Two evidences from >different parts of the kernel: (1) the fdc driver and (2) the aic7xxx >driver. >(1) FDC driver >Please look at this (i386/isa/fdc.c): >int >in_fdc(fdcu_t fdcu) >{ > int baseport = fdc_data[fdcu].baseport; > int i, j = 100000; > while ((i = inb(baseport+FDSTS) & (NE7_DIO|NE7_RQM)) > != (NE7_DIO|NE7_RQM) && j-- > 0) > if (i == NE7_RQM) > return fdc_err(fdcu, "ready for output in input\n"); > if (j <= 0) > return fdc_err(fdcu, "input ready timeout\n"); >... >This is obviously a counter, not a timer. My machine is fast, it >counts considerably more in the same amount of time, and thus results >in nasty timeouts (that even lock the machine sometimes) It actually acts as a timer. inb() is very slow on all machines. On all ISA machines, inb() takes about 1-1.25 usec. On PCI machines, it may be faster, but it probably won't be more than a few times faster, and certainly can't be more than 100 times faster. The initial count is large enough to allow for a speedup of a few thousand. On my ASUS P55TP4XE (rev.2.4), inb(0x1f0+FDSTS) actually takes 1180 ns, so the loop goes only about 10/9 or 11/9 times as fast as on my slow ISA systems, and the loop times out after about 118 ms. Timeouts occured because of a bug elsewhere in the driver and unusual behaviour of the UMC i/o chip. The chip sometimes interrupted early in response to i/o commands. This causeed the driver to enter the spinloop too early and busy-wait until i/o completion. 118 ms is long enough for i/o to complete in most cases except after a seek, when it usually takes slightly less than one disk revolution (200 ms or 167 ms) for i/o to complete. Increasing the timeout masked the problem. The fix was to clear all the interrupts generated by reset instead of just one. This has been fixed in -current and -stable for a couple of months. > We need to depend the init value of j on the speed of the >machine. And, after all, we shouldn't just count and block the whole >machine from doing better things. Insert a tsleep()! Interrupt handlers can't call tsleep(). In this case, there is nothing better to do than to busy-wait, since setting up a timeout would take much longer than the expected wait time. >First I define a constant with the counter value times 10, for a basic >safety, such that it can be predefined as an option in the config >file. I use the old value 100000 for my i486/33 ISA machine, and the >times 10 value for the i586/133 PCI -- the timeouts didn't occur since >I did this! But one can clearly watch the machine hang for a few >milliseconds, when e.g. fdformat(8) is running (see how the regular >blinking of the cursor stucks) -- I bet that a tsleep() instead of the >counter would fix this for ever. I saw i by watching systat. An i586/133 PCI shouldn't have a 10% overhead for floppy interrupts! This also showed that increasing the timeout was the wrong fix. >O.K. that's for the FD controller driver, but the real nasty thing >will be fixed now! >(2) the PCI ahc driver (i386/scsi/aic7xxx.c) I don't know much about this. >O.K. since I no longer trust the time/tick/hz management and proper >adjustment of my kernel to high CPU speeds, I decided to just increase >the timeout values by the same factor of 10. The timeout() and clock interrupt and higher level parts (including everything to do with hz) can be trusted. >void >ahc_scb_timeout(unit, ahc, scb) >... > timeout(ahc_timeout, (caddr_t)scb, ( TOFACT * 2 * hz)); 2 seconds was already a lot. The fatal problem is probably in poor handling of SCSI errors. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 21:23:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA02224 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 21:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02212; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 21:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with ESMTP id VAA01471; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 21:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA00278; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 21:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606030422.VAA00278@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Bruce Evans cc: deborah@microunity.com, gusw@zedat.fu-berlin.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, gibbs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adaptec 2940 U makes fatal bus resets! In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Jun 1996 13:52:44 +1000." <199606030352.NAA22079@godzilla.zeta.org.au> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 21:22:22 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>void >>ahc_scb_timeout(unit, ahc, scb) >>... > >> timeout(ahc_timeout, (caddr_t)scb, ( TOFACT * 2 * hz)); > >2 seconds was already a lot. The fatal problem is probably in poor handling >of SCSI errors. It seems conceivable that certain types of failures that require a recalibrate, or certain types of SCSI devices (like CDROM drives) that need to spin up first could trigger an unnecessary timeout with it set to only 2 seconds. It should probably be increased to at least 10 seconds, but I'll defer to whatever Justin thinks is needed. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 2 23:48:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA13604 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 23:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA13596 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 23:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA00941; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:39:30 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606030709.QAA00941@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Did people know you could get demo versions of this now? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:39:29 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <22630.833740975@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 2, 96 11:42:55 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > Just in case: > http://www.netcon.com/download/download.htm > > This is "novell server" software for FreeBSD, e.g. you run it and your > DOS/novell clients can mount whatever volumes the FreeBSD box sees > (since it's done in usermode) in the traditional Novell fashion. It > also has a terminal client, printer sharing, remote diagnostic console > support, the works. The demo version is free so, if you've got some > Novell clients lying around, check it out! :-) It should be noted that - it requires a custom kernel (but they supply the .o file ready-built) - their install script won't succeed in building/installing a new kernel for you because it doesn't do the 'chfkags' thing. But the manual looks pretty cool. > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 02:13:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA22845 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 02:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isbalham (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA22840; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 02:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id KAA06789; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:11:55 +0100 Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:24:18 +0100 X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:29:10 +0100 To: Bruce Evans , alex@freebsd.org, pjf@cts.com From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop) Subject: Re: bugs [ftruncate] Cc: bde@freebsd.org, dyson@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 8:48 am 3/6/96, Bruce Evans wrote: > [...] >> These two functions are provided by SVR4 and 4.3+BSD. They are not >> part of POSIX.1 or XPG3. > >> SVR4 truncates or extends a file. 4.3+BSD only truncates a file with >> these functions -- they can't be used to extend a file. > >Extension is supposed to work now. This seems to be standard in 4.4Lite. >ISTR it not working in FreeBSD-1.1. The man page is still misleading in >4.4Lite2. Don't forget that this has to work right for NFS too: I've had problems in the past with non-FreeBSD clients off a FreeBSD server being unable to extend files. -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 03:30:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA27245 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 03:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soleil.uvsq.fr (soleil.uvsq.fr [193.51.24.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA27189 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 03:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guillotin.prism.uvsq.fr (guillotin.prism.uvsq.fr [193.51.25.1]) by soleil.uvsq.fr (8.7.5/jtpda-5.2) with ESMTP id MAA02044 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:29:40 +0200 (METDST) Received: from angrand.prism.uvsq.fr (angrand.prism.uvsq.fr [193.51.25.85]) by guillotin.prism.uvsq.fr (8.7.5/jtpda-5.2) with ESMTP id MAA16576 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:29:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nicolas.Souchu@prism.uvsq.fr (Nicolas SOUCHU) Received: from (son@localhost) by angrand.prism.uvsq.fr (8.7.5/jtpda-5.2) id NAA00333 ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:32:24 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:32:24 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606031132.NAA00333@angrand.prism.uvsq.fr> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: How to preempt the current process ? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk An adapter that does not support interrupts must be polled. Then when data is not available, I want the current process to be preempted without sleeping, just scheduled (its state remains SRUN). Is that enough? : s = splhigh (); mi_switch (); curpriority = p->p_usrpri; splx (s); This is the sleep() code without queueing the process with state=SSLEEP. Secondly, what does mean : __asm__ ("":::"memory") ? This is the macro 'barrier()' in Linux. Thanks in advance... nicolas -- Nicolas.Souchu@prism.uvsq.fr Laboratoire PRiSM - Versailles, FRANCE http://www.prism.uvsq.fr/public/son From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 03:37:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA27773 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 03:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.101]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA27724 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 03:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ida.interface-business.de (ida.interface-business.de [193.101.57.203]) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA08322; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:43:53 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by ida.interface-business.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA24573; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:38:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606031038.MAA24573@ida.interface-business.de> Subject: Re: Two queries (libcompat.so and timedef()) To: fhackers@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:38:00 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@interface-business.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606022254.WAA02832@jraynard.demon.co.uk> from James Raynard at "Jun 2, 96 10:54:06 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-31809-14 X-Fax: +49-351-3361187 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As James Raynard wrote: > > > 1. ftok(). The prototype for this function is missing from > > > . > OK, I just mentioned because that's what was in the man > page. I've verified with a SysV, and decided to follow the historical practice. > > I wonder where SysV did provide the prototype. Perhaps nowhere. :) > > Well, apparently they put its man page under stdipc(3C), so your guess > is as good as mine 8-) Their prototype is really in , and since this file is SysV IPC legacy anyway, i'm going to place our prototype there, too. -- J"org Wunsch Unix support engineer joerg_wunsch@interface-business.de http://www.interface-business.de/~j From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 06:57:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA16416 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA16411 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA18375; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:56:33 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:56:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bugs In-Reply-To: <199606020600.BAA00232@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > MMAP doesn't extend files, AFAIK it doesn't on many (if not most > other OSes.) To set the length of the file you need to do an ftruncate. > After that, then blocks will be allocated as needed. There is an option on irix to automagically extend not only the file but the mmap'ed region. A misfeature IMHO. ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 07:05:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16754 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA16747 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA18435; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:05:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:05:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: re: supporting coda threads. In-Reply-To: <199606021949.OAA00608@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (from john dyson) > One of the middle-layer VM enhancements that I plan to add for 2.2 is > true-shared address spaces. Will this help? well i think it depends on the level of threading, i.e. if you use fork()+shared address space instead of threads and the context switch overhead is too high maybe it won't work. That's why i'm wondering about how much threading is going on. I'm going to grab the code this week at some point and look around. FYI: in the ZOUNDS DSM i wrote there is a little thing called filemalloc() and filecalloc(). Works just like malloc/calloc, except it's in mmap'ed files so you can have shared data across fork. This is a poor man's way to implement "threads" for those systems without rfork(). ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 10:42:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05623 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter2.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05612 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter2.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter2.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09695 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:42:02 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: mail-relays needed in various countries! Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 10:42:01 -0700 Message-ID: <9693.833823721@critter2.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We need some mail-relays in (at least) these domains: .kr .tw .cn .th .nz .id .my .ph .hk .br .mx If you know of any good candidates for a mail-relay in one of these domains, please send email to mailgeeks@freebsd.org A good candidate is any machine that is connected at the local backbone or whereever the line from USA comes in. It must be up 24/7, though we will make a decent fallback in case it's down. The advantage for you in getting a mail-relay working is that you get your email just as fast, if not faster, and the load on the lines to the USA will drop. Thankyou! Poul-Henning From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 11:01:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06911 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA06906; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id EAA23582; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 04:00:07 +1000 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 04:00:07 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606031800.EAA23582@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: alex@freebsd.org, bde@zeta.org.au, pjf@cts.com, rb@gid.co.uk Subject: Re: bugs [ftruncate] Cc: bde@freebsd.org, dyson@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Don't forget that this has to work right for NFS too: I've had problems in >the past with non-FreeBSD clients off a FreeBSD server being unable to >extend files. ftruncate() seems to work right for FreeBSD NFS, and there is code to support it in our support disk file systems (ufs, msdosfs, ext2fs). I noticed that it also "succeeds" for /dev/tty. It "succeeds" and has no effect for all special files. OTOH, lseek() returns ESPIPE unless the file type is DTYPE_VNODE. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 11:19:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07884 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA07879; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25256; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:13:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606031813.LAA25256@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: PR conf/1270 To: matt@lkg.dec.com (Matt Thomas) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:13:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606021716.RAA18960@whydos.lkg.dec.com> from "Matt Thomas" at Jun 2, 96 05:16:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >Anyone know why the patch in the PR SHOULDN'T be applied? (apart from > > >the fact it makes /etc/ttys massive :-/ ) Perhaps the first 128 pty's > > >should be defined, leaving a note that you have to define the others > > >if you want to have more? > > > > It should probably be applied (after testing :-) to -stable, but for > > -current someone should work on how this is going to work with devfs > > when there will be an unlimited number of ptys. > > > > Each additional statically configured pty currently costs 252 bytes > > for the tty struct alone, not about 128 bits as guessed in the PR. > > A default of 32 would still be reasonable. > > That's the problem right there. The tty structure (and anything else > required by the pty driver) should be dynanmically allocated on first > open and closed on last close. Then keep a list of pointers to softc > structures inside the pty driver indexed by minor number. It's even > releatively make this list dynamic as well so it grows as it needs to. > > I implemented something similar for Digital UNIX when I did the it's > initial LAT implementation. Under ULTRIX, I was quite sick & tired > of having to rebuild the kernel for a more lat devices. So in Digital > UNIX I got the infrastructure changed to make it possible. If you > wanted more LAT ttys, all you had to do is make the /dev entries for > them. > > Looking at FreeBSD, it looks like it could support doing the above > today rather easily. I have been considering this very problem for some time in the context of devfs. I believe what is wanted is a cloning pty driver. This is a rather trivial thing to implement, given a working devfs, or a near-impossible thing to implement, without devfs. There is also the issue of pty acquisition and relinquishing to be dealt with; the open->close 1->0 reference on the master should probably revoke the slave and propagate SIGHUP. This is somewhat complicated by the fact that BSD's "POSIX" revocation/SIGHUP code is broken, as far as most applications are concerned. The acquisition is, by far, the largest problem, since it implies a difference from other systems. The best we can hope for in this regard, IMO, is to adopt an existing cloning model to reuse the allocation code; AIX seems to be the one, unless we encapsulate our own in one of the two common pty access libraries out there. This is a problem that has been discussed at length on -current in the context of devfs. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 11:23:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08045 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08037 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25273; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:15:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606031815.LAA25273@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: coda questions To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:15:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: mheller@student.uni-kl.de, rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606021949.OAA00608@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Jun 2, 96 02:49:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > what degree of threading does it have? > > > thread per remote computer > > > enough threads to support demand > > > thread per exported object > > > > > and again, are tehse user-level threads (seems so). > > > Reason for asking: depending on how much threading, rfork() may do the job. > > > One of the middle-layer VM enhancements that I plan to add for 2.2 is > true-shared address spaces. Will this help? In this model, what will be the difference between a kernel thread and multiple processes with true-shared address spaces? I am specifically referring to an SVR4/Solaris "LWP" kernel thread. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 11:32:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08542 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08535; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25340; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:28:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606031828.LAA25340@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: bugs To: alex@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:28:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: pjf@cts.com, bde@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606022225.RAA23224@zen.nash.org> from "Alex Nash" at Jun 2, 96 05:25:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Richard Stevens (APUE) has the following notes on truncate (see page > 92): > > These two functions are provided by SVR4 and 4.3+BSD. They are not > part of POSIX.1 or XPG3. > > SVR4 truncates or extends a file. 4.3+BSD only truncates a file with > these functions -- they can't be used to extend a file. > > As far as mmap is concerned, you cannot write beyond 'len' bytes as > specified in the call to mmap. (In reality, under FreeBSD 2.1R you > can write up to the next 4K page and get away with it. Linux 1.2.13 > is even less stringent.) I believe that writing up to the 4k boundry works for every OS. The question is whether to allow extension so that data in the 4k after the former EOF is relevant or simply discarded. I would be for prohibiting extension of files in the mmap boundry, if this is important to you, with an extended madvise(). The point is that memory protection is enforced via a "guard page" following the mapped region, so you only have a page granularity on protection and therefore mapping. One alternative (I don't know if anyone does this) is to take the fault by incorrectly marking the partial page, and enforcing the write based on either doing it anyway or refusing it with a fault depending on the byte offset. Obviously, this is not a good strategy for all MMU implementations, so you would damage system portability by requiring it. This is a finer grained version of how you must implement kernel space write address range faulting for processors that don't handle the write protect attribute properly in kernel mode (ie: the 386). Obviously, in any case, the BSD interface that extends the file is not the mmap, it's the write that occurs after the mmap, and the page boundry issue is one on the end of an extended file between the odd location and the next page boundry. There is a similar bug in FreeBSD having to do with map-start offsets for non-zero offset copies (cp uses mmap). I reported the bug about three weeks ago on -current as a question about correct behaviour. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 11:43:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09041 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09036 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA10217; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606031841.LAA10217@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: coda questions To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:41:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: mheller@student.uni-kl.de, rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606021949.OAA00608@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Jun 2, 96 02:49:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > > > > On Fri, 31 May 1996, Ron G. Minnich wrote: > > > > > what degree of threading does it have? > > > thread per remote computer > > > enough threads to support demand > > > thread per exported object > > > > > and again, are tehse user-level threads (seems so). > > > Reason for asking: depending on how much threading, rfork() may do the job. > > > One of the middle-layer VM enhancements that I plan to add for 2.2 is > true-shared address spaces. Will this help? this will be really useful....! > > John > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 13:05:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14137 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14131 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA04299 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:09:04 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:09:04 -0400 Message-Id: <199606032009.QAA04299@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: LBA and Large IDE driver with 2.1R Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are there any known problems with large IDE drives in 2.1R. I have one that I've loaded several times and it just keeps crashing. The same image on a 540 drive runs on the same physical machine runs fine. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 13:17:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14812 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14787 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.2/1.0/WV) id PAA22011; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA29809; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:46:30 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA25025; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:51:27 GMT Message-Id: <199606031551.PAA25025@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Bruce Evans Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PR conf/1270 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Jun 1996 08:33:50 +1000." <199606022233.IAA09273@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 15:51:27 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > There is a problem with dangling pointers. See kern_exit.c: > > /* > * s_ttyp is not zero'd; we use this to indicate > * that the session once had a controlling terminal. > * (for logging and informational purposes) > */ > > and some things follow the pointer for closed devices. Perhaps only > applications like ptstat -t. pstat also wants to work with an array of > tty structs. Digital UNIX had the same misfeature. Which is why it now uses a vnode reference: struct vnode *s_ttyvp; /* vnode of controlling terminal */ This also allows other things than classic ttys to be controlling terminals (say streams devices or portals or ...). > The same problems interfere with dynamic allocation of tty structs for > hardware ttys, but there is less to be gained by dynamic allocation in > this case. The closed tty structs are a good place for holding statstics > and the state for the next open (they don't actually hold much of it now). But that doesn't hold true for ptys. -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 13:22:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15193 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA15179 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA28036; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 06:16:33 +1000 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 06:16:33 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606032016.GAA28036@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, matt@lkg.dec.com Subject: Re: PR conf/1270 Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> There is a problem with dangling pointers. See kern_exit.c: >> >> /* >> * s_ttyp is not zero'd; we use this to indicate >Digital UNIX had the same misfeature. Which is why it now uses >a vnode reference: > struct vnode *s_ttyvp; /* vnode of controlling terminal */ >This also allows other things than classic ttys to be controlling >terminals (say streams devices or portals or ...). FreeBSD already has s_ttyvp, but still needs s_ttyp. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 13:23:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15341 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA15320 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA15175; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:23:27 -0600 Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:23:27 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606032023.OAA15175@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: LBA and Large IDE driver with 2.1R In-Reply-To: <199606032009.QAA04299@etinc.com> References: <199606032009.QAA04299@etinc.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Are there any known problems with large IDE drives in > 2.1R. I have one that I've loaded several times and it > just keeps crashing. The same image on a 540 drive > runs on the same physical machine runs fine. I'm runing 2.1R on a 1Gig drive with LBA w/out problems. But, you *have* to have the entire root partition below the 512MB boundary. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 13:58:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17806 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17801 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11145; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606032058.NAA11145@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: supporting coda threads. To: rminnich@Sarnoff.COM (Ron G. Minnich) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:57:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Ron G. Minnich" at Jun 3, 96 10:05:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > (from john dyson) > > One of the middle-layer VM enhancements that I plan to add for 2.2 is > > true-shared address spaces. Will this help? > > well i think it depends on the level of threading, i.e. if you use > fork()+shared address space instead of threads and the context switch > overhead is too high maybe it won't work. That's why i'm wondering about > how much threading is going on. I'm going to grab the code this week at some > point and look around. The beauty of real shared addres spaces is that it is just a reference count on the appropriate structure. that is fast, and your caches don't need to be flushed if two consecutive processes are sharing address space. Th epresent address space sharing in rfork is 'interesting' but not sufficient, because sharing processes can not see ADDITIONAL areas allocated after the fork. rfork with a REAL sharing mode as well as the present mode should yield a very quick context time and fork. These changes however are also needed for the SMP mods. > > FYI: in the ZOUNDS DSM i wrote there is a little thing called filemalloc() > and filecalloc(). Works just like malloc/calloc, except it's in mmap'ed > files so you can have shared data across fork. This is a poor man's way > to implement "threads" for those systems without rfork(). > heh! > ron > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 14:56:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA21283 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from central.picker.com (central.picker.com [144.54.31.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21277 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ct.picker.com by central.picker.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0uQhQG-0004rrC; Mon, 3 Jun 96 17:44 EDT Received: from elmer.picker.com ([144.54.52.5]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29600; Mon, 3 Jun 96 17:44:09 EDT Received: by elmer.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA08957; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:45:01 -0400 From: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) Message-Id: <199606032145.RAA08957@elmer.picker.com> Subject: Re: LBA and Large IDE driver with 2.1R To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, 199606032009.QAA04299@etinc.com In-Reply-To: <199606032023.OAA15175@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 3, 96 02:23:27 pm Reply-To: rhh@ct.picker.com Organization: Picker International, CT Division X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams: >> Are there any known problems with large IDE drives in >> 2.1R. I have one that I've loaded several times and it >> just keeps crashing. The same image on a 540 drive >> runs on the same physical machine runs fine. > >I'm runing 2.1R on a 1Gig drive with LBA w/out problems. But, you >*have* to have the entire root partition below the 512MB boundary. I have FreeBSD 2.1.0-STABLE running fine on a 1.6 Gig disk, and all of the FreeBSD slice lives up on the high 815 meg of the disk. I'm running LBA on an Asus P55TP4XE (dual IDE onboard), and using OS/BS Beta to boot this FreeBSD slice and all the others on this WD31600 as well as my WD31200 on wd0. I have had 0 problems -- FreeBSD seems to pick up the translated geometry and life is good. So I think there must be some exceptions to the above statement -- I'd be interested in the specifics of the exceptions if anyone knows (a section on LBA might make a good addition to the handbook as well). Information on my wd1 config is detailed below if anyone is curious. Randall Hopper rhh@ct.picker.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- # fdisk wd1 ******* Working on device /dev/rwd1 ******* parameters extracted from in-core disklabel are: cylinders=787 heads=64 sectors/track=63 (4032 blks/cyl) parameters to be used for BIOS calculations are: cylinders=787 heads=64 sectors/track=63 (4032 blks/cyl) Warning: BIOS sector numbering starts with sector 1 Information from DOS bootblock is: The data for partition 0 is: sysid 1,(Primary DOS with 12 bit FAT) start 63, size 3969 (1 Meg), flag 0 beg: cyl 0/ sector 1/ head 1; end: cyl 0/ sector 63/ head 63 The data for partition 1 is: sysid 5,(Extended DOS) start 4032, size 1048320 (511 Meg), flag 0 beg: cyl 1/ sector 1/ head 0; end: cyl 260/ sector 63/ head 63 The data for partition 2 is: sysid 131,(Linux filesystem) start 1052352, size 451584 (220 Meg), flag 0 beg: cyl 261/ sector 1/ head 0; end: cyl 372/ sector 63/ head 63 The data for partition 3 is: sysid 165,(FreeBSD/NetBSD/386BSD) start 1503936, size 1669248 (815 Meg), flag 80 beg: cyl 373/ sector 1/ head 0; end: cyl 786/ sector 63/ head 63 C:\> ataid Drive # ------------------------------- : 1 Model Number -------------------------- : WDC AC31600H Serial Number ------------------------- : WD-WT2890940399 Controller Firmware Rev Number -------- : 21.15T21 Media type ---------------------------- : Magnetic Drive Type ---------------------------- : Fixed (non-removable) Sector Formating ---------------------- : Not MFM Encoded, Hard Sectored Able to do Double Word Transfer ------- : No Maximum Data Transfer Rate ------------ : Between 5 KB/Sec and 10 MB/Sec Controller buffer type ---------------- : Dual port multi-sector Simulataneous transfer capability Read caching capability Controller cache buffer size ---------- : 128 KB ECC bytes avial on long transfers ----- : 22 Max # of sectors per interrupt -------- : 16 Current # of sectors/interrupt ---- : 16 #cyls #heads #Sec Size Default Translation Mode -------------- : 3148 16 63 1549 MB Current Translation Mode -------------- : 3148 16 63 1549 MB Current BIOS Setup ------------------- : 787 64 63 1549 MB DMA Supported ------------------------- : Yes LBA Supported ------------------------- : Yes PIO Data Transfer Timing Mode --------- : Mode 2 DMA Data Transfer Timing Mode --------- : Mode 0 Supported DMA Single Word Transfer Modes: Mode 0 Active DMA Single Word Transfer Mode -- : Mode 0 Supported DMA MultiWord Transfer Modes : Mode 7 Active DMA MultiWord Transfer Mode ---- : Mode 4 Advanced PIO minimum cycle time ------- : 32 nanoseconds DMA minimum cycle time ---------------- : 24936 nanoseconds DMA Recommended cycle time ------------ : 26478 nanoseconds Min PIO cycle time without flow control : 8293 nanoseconds Min PIO cycle time with flow control -- : 26740 nanoseconds From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 16:15:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA27290 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA27285 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA02039 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:15:59 +0200 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA22925 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org); Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:15:38 +0200 Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA08198 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org); Tue, 4 Jun 1996 00:42:35 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.6.12/8.6.6) id AAA02163 for FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 00:02:50 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199606032202.AAA02163@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands Subject: need historical insight... To: FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers list) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 00:02:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi there I have a presumably very rare question: - I have this PDP-11 sitting next to my FreeBSD box. The PDP has an ancient BSD on it. - It also has a Qbus DEQNA ethernet card and talks TCP/IP to my home network quite nicely. Telnet works just fine - My problem comes when I try to get files from the PDP onto the FreeBSD box. After some 2 kBytes (according to the # displayed) the connection hangs. I really would like to get the files off the PDP onto my FreeBSD box since they contain a distribution set of the PDPs OS. A disk crash can now easily take my little museum out of commision. I tried playing with the mtu (maybe the ol' Qbus board is overwhelmed by the speed of the other side??) but no luck. Could the new TCP/IP features be biting me? On the PDP: qe0: 192.168.200.5 netmask ffffff00 flags=243 broadcast: 192.168.200.255 On the FreeBSD: 192.168.200.1 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.200.255 ether 00:00:24:06:32:56 Thanks for all insight.. ________________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 17:30:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA29835 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29830 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12382; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606040030.RAA12382@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: LBA and Large IDE driver with 2.1R To: rhh@ct.picker.com Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:30:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org, 199606032009.QAA04299@etinc.com In-Reply-To: <199606032145.RAA08957@elmer.picker.com> from "Randall Hopper" at Jun 3, 96 05:45:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The slice can be > 512 MB if it is not the BOOTING slice/partition > > I have FreeBSD 2.1.0-STABLE running fine on a 1.6 Gig disk, and all of > the FreeBSD slice lives up on the high 815 meg of the disk. I'm running > LBA on an Asus P55TP4XE (dual IDE onboard), and using OS/BS Beta to boot > this FreeBSD slice and all the others on this WD31600 as well as my WD31200 > on wd0. I have had 0 problems -- FreeBSD seems to pick up the translated > geometry and life is good. > > So I think there must be some exceptions to the above statement -- I'd > be interested in the specifics of the exceptions if anyone knows (a section > on LBA might make a good addition to the handbook as well). > > Information on my wd1 config is detailed below if anyone is curious. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 18:57:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA04017 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from central.picker.com (central.picker.com [144.54.31.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA04011 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ct.picker.com by central.picker.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0uQlJn-0004s8C; Mon, 3 Jun 96 21:53 EDT Received: from elmer.picker.com ([144.54.52.5]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07770; Mon, 3 Jun 96 21:53:43 EDT Received: by elmer.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA09475; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:54:36 -0400 From: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) Message-Id: <199606040154.VAA09475@elmer.picker.com> Subject: Re: LBA and Large IDE driver with 2.1R To: julian@ref.tfs.com (JULIAN Elischer) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606040030.RAA12382@ref.tfs.com> from "JULIAN Elischer" at Jun 3, 96 05:30:06 pm Reply-To: rhh@ct.picker.com Organization: Picker International, CT Division X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk JULIAN Elischer: >The slice can be > 512 MB if it is not the BOOTING slice/partition >> >> I have FreeBSD 2.1.0-STABLE running fine on a 1.6 Gig disk, and all of >> the FreeBSD slice lives up on the high 815 meg of the disk. I'm running >> LBA on an Asus P55TP4XE (dual IDE onboard), and using OS/BS Beta to boot >> this FreeBSD slice and all the others on this WD31600 as well as my WD31200 >> on wd0. I have had 0 problems -- FreeBSD seems to pick up the translated >> geometry and life is good. I don't believe that this describes my system. My root, user, and swap are all above 512Mb (in the single FreeBSD slice I mentioned). The only thing below 512Mb that's involved here is my boot loader (OS/BS) which is on wd0 in cylinder 0. My understanding is that the boot loader just loads up the boot sector in the FreeBSD slice and executes it, and FreeBSD then uses the BIOS (the LBA is through my BIOS) to load the kernel. FreeBSD is somehow picking up and using the translated LBA geometry of my drive OK, because the kernel loads and the OS runs without a hitch (been running great for months). Does the 512MB limit come from the 1024 cylinder limit? If so this may help explain things. My true cylinder count = 3148. Cylinder count w/ LBA = 787. If the 512MB is just a derived limit and the 1024 cyl is what counts, this makes sense. FreeBSD uses the BIOS to load the kernel, my LBA is through my BIOS, so to the BIOS it's loading below cylinder 1024. Are my suppositions correct here? That is, is 1024 cylinders the real limit, and 512MB just what it typically equates to without LBA? And (assuming yes) does FreeBSD fully support a bootable FreeBSD partition anywhere on an LBA disk given that the remapped cylinder number is < 1024? (...or am I not even close on this one :-) Randall Hopper rhh@ct.picker.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 19:17:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA05247 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA05223 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.2/1.0/WV) id VAA20160; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA01615; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:55:36 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA28097 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 22:00:32 GMT Message-Id: <199606032200.WAA28097@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Wanted: a few brave souls (to test a change to the if_de driver) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 22:00:32 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I modified my new/normal if_de.c driver to do something quite different from most network drivers. This driver will defer processing of interrupts to a netisr routine. Actually the acknowledges an interrupt, and disables interrupts for the device, and waits for a software interrupt to acutally service the interrupt. Thus hardly any of the driver runs splimp and most runs at splnet. This also results in pratically no drops at the protocol layer (ie. ipintrq). With a small change to ether_input and ip_input, one could even bypass ipintrq and have much fairer input processing (reduce queueing delays and effects considerably). If you are in an environment where you are getting ipintrq drops with the de driver, I'd be very curious to see what results you get from this driver. Send me mail if you are interested... (Anything after 2.1.0-RELEASE should work fine included 2.2-current). -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 21:04:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11986 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA11981 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA01778; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma001776; Mon Jun 3 21:04:05 1996 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA06798; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:04:05 -0700 From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199606040404.VAA06798@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: NULL interface field in ip_fw_chk To: ormonde@trem.cnt.org.br (Rodrigo Ormonde) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 21:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9605221807.AA08687@trem.cnt.org.br> from "Rodrigo Ormonde" at May 22, 96 03:07:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > int ip_fw_chk(mbuf *m, struct ip *ip, struct ifnet *rif, ... > > Looking into the code of ip_fw_chk, I realise that sometimes this function > is called with rif = NULL. > > My question is: does anybody knows why and under what circunstances the > ip_fw_chk is called with a NULL pointer in the interface field ? (the > ip_fw_chk function is called only by ip_input.c) Perhaps when a packet didn't come in on any interface, i.e., it was generated locally (for example, a kernel generated ICMP). -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie L. Cobbs, archie@whistle.com * Whistle Communications Corporation From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 22:16:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA15745 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 22:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA15733; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 22:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA05227; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:08:58 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606040538.PAA05227@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FBSD 2.1 Alarm Monitoring - Multi I/O (Advice) To: ELLISOND%SC2.EDW@mhs.elan.af.mil Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:08:57 +0930 (CST) Cc: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "ELLISOND%SC2.EDW@mhs.elan.af.mil" at May 29, 96 04:10:00 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Sorry to take so long to get back on this...) ELLISOND%SC2.EDW@mhs.elan.af.mil stands accused of saying: > > I would like to configure a FreeBSD 2.1 box to monitor Contact Closure > Alarms generated from a Motorola Smartnet II Trunked System Controller, > Multiple channel banks and a DS3-Microwave System. Is there a card or > method supported by FreeBSD 2.1 that can handle this type of operation? You can do this with an off-the-shelf digital I/O card, and talk to it with user-mode port I/O. > I also plan on using the same box to attach multiple RS232 communications > devices (3 remote site controller, 3 Best UPS, and 2 Motorola Unix Boxes). > I am considering a Cyclades 16 port board (previous experience with board) > for this job, but if there is a card with the RJ45 connectors on the card > instead of an external box I would rather use that. If none of these are talking particularly hard, you could go with one of the PC-COM 8-port RJ cards. These work quite well. > Duane R. Ellison, SrA Again, sorry to be so slow in responding to this 8( -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 3 22:22:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA16249 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 22:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (pp@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA16080 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 22:20:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au id <08216-0@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:19:36 +1000 Received: from netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id PAA18418 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:20:16 +1000 Received: from localhost by netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.8.1/DEVETIR-0.1) id FAA25672 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 05:20:18 GMT Message-Id: <199606040520.FAA25672@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Setting/Deleting Breakpoints using the /proc filesystem X-Face: 3}heU+2?b->-GSF-G4T4>jEB9~FR(V9lo&o>kAy=Pj&;oVOc<|pr%I/VSG"ZD32J>5gGC0N 7gj]^GI@M:LlqNd]|(2OxOxy@$6@/!,";-!OlucF^=jq8s57$%qXd/ieC8DhWmIy@J1AcnvSGV\|*! >Bvu7+0h4zCY^]{AxXKsDTlgA2m]fX$W@'8ev-Qi+-;%L'CcZ'NBL!@n?}q!M&Em3*eW7,093nOeV8 M)(u+6D;%B7j\XA/9j4!Gj~&jYzflG[#)E9sI&Xe9~y~Gn%fA7>F:YKr"Wx4cZU*6{^2ocZ!YyR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 15:20:17 +1000 From: Stephen Hocking Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know how to do this? I'd much rather not grope around using ptrace, if at all possible. If you're wondering what it's all about, I'm looking at porting UPS-2.50-RGA, which looks a little easier than coping with the mess of perl & hacked gdb code that ups-3.14 seems to require. I've been missing this debugger for too long. Stephen -- The views expressed above are not those of the Worker's Compensation Board of Queensland, Australia. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 01:26:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA25957 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA25935 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA22943; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:31:15 +0300 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:31:15 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: Wilko Bulte cc: FreeBSD hackers list Subject: Re: need historical insight... In-Reply-To: <199606032202.AAA02163@yedi.iaf.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Wilko Bulte wrote: > Hi there > > I have a presumably very rare question: > > - I have this PDP-11 sitting next to my FreeBSD box. The PDP has > an ancient BSD on it. > > - It also has a Qbus DEQNA ethernet card and talks TCP/IP to my > home network quite nicely. Telnet works just fine > > - My problem comes when I try to get files from the PDP onto the > FreeBSD box. After some 2 kBytes (according to the # displayed) > the connection hangs. > > I really would like to get the files off the PDP onto my FreeBSD > box since they contain a distribution set of the PDPs OS. A disk > crash can now easily take my little museum out of commision. > > I tried playing with the mtu (maybe the ol' Qbus board is overwhelmed > by the speed of the other side??) but no luck. > > Could the new TCP/IP features be biting me? > > On the PDP: > qe0: 192.168.200.5 netmask ffffff00 flags=243 > broadcast: 192.168.200.255 > > On the FreeBSD: > 192.168.200.1 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.200.255 > ether 00:00:24:06:32:56 > > Thanks for all insight.. > ________________________________________________________________________ > | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl > |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > If anything else fails, you might try something real silly and dirty... Like - get a PC with a terminal emulation program which supports session logging, switch it in, log into the PDP, and tell it to UUEncode the file to the screen. Later you'll be able to UUDecode it. Now, just don't make such a face - it has always helped me as the last resort. Sander From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 01:45:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27060 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.NL.net (ns.NL.net [193.78.240.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27054 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:45:33 -0700 (PDT) From: dutchman@spase.nl Received: from spase by ns.NL.net via EUnet id AA01960 (5.65b/CWI-3.3); Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:24:59 +0200 Received: from spase5.spase.nl (spase5 [192.9.200.104]) by mercurius.spase.nl (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA10345 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:20:08 +0200 Message-Id: <199606040820.KAA10345@mercurius.spase.nl> Received: by spase5.spase.nl (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA12071; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:20:07 +0200 Subject: Sorry to clobber the list... To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (Mailing list; FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 96 10:20:07 METDST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hoi Hackers, Sorry to clobber the hackers list, but I seem te be receiving no mailing-list mail anymore. I'm not sure what's wrong, my sysop says the mail at SPaSE's side runs fine. Am I still on the list? Groetjes, Kees Jan ======================================================================v== Kees Jan Koster e-mail: dutchman@spase.nl Van Somerenstraat 50 tel: NL-24-3234708 6521 BS Nijmegen the Netherlands ========================================================================= Who is this general Failure and why is he reading my disk? (anonymous) ========================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 01:52:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27517 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.siemens.at (news.siemens.at [192.138.228.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27503 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sol1.gud.siemens.co.at (sol-f.gud.siemens-austria) by news.siemens.at with SMTP id AA25738 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:51:48 +0200 Received: from ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at by sol1.gud.siemens.co.at with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7 for ) id m0uQrpe-000210C; Tue, 4 Jun 96 10:51 MET DST Received: by ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at (1.37.109.16/1.37) id AA184968045; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:47:25 +0200 From: "Hr.Ladavac" Message-Id: <199606040847.AA184968045@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at> Subject: Re: Indentation styles To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:47:25 +0200 (MESZ) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199605312156.OAA18885@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at May 31, 96 02:56:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In his e-mail Terry Lambert wrote: > > Yes, I'm a geek who spent way too may years writing emulation software > for a terminal software company (extra points: what's the difference > between a VT130 and a VT131? It's a trick question... 8-)). The 1 in the name? :) /Marino From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 02:39:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA29146 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (fub46.fddi1.fu-berlin.de [160.45.1.46]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA29137 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by fub46.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.29.1) id ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:38:01 +0200 (MES) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:38:01 +0200 (MES) From: gusw@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Gunther Schadow) To: davidg@Root.COM Subject: Re: Adaptec 2940 U makes fatal bus resets! Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>void >>ahc_scb_timeout(unit, ahc, scb) >>... > >> timeout(ahc_timeout, (caddr_t)scb, ( TOFACT * 2 * hz)); > >2 seconds was already a lot. The fatal problem is probably in poor handling >of SCSI errors. It seems conceivable that certain types of failures that require a recalibrate, or certain types of SCSI devices (like CDROM drives) that need to spin up first could trigger an unnecessary timeout with it set to only 2 seconds. It should probably be increased to at least 10 seconds, but I'll defer to whatever Justin thinks is needed. I have to correct myself, the Problem is not fixed by the lengthening of the timeout times. The machine just hangs longer, before it comes up with this BUS DEVICE RESET message on my sd(0). This problem is so awfully severe, I hope that I am not the only one who has it, and that there are already some people who know what to do (I don't) working hard on it. I'm so disappointed because I never had to mistrust my BSD kernel so much: 386BSD 0.0new had longer uptimes then I experience today! sigh, Gunther Schadow From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 02:57:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA29747 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chaph.usc.edu (root@chaph.usc.edu [128.125.253.133]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA29742 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alcor.usc.edu (charunya@alcor.usc.edu [128.125.253.169]) by chaph.usc.edu (8.7.2/8.7.3/usc) with ESMTP id CAA15324 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (charunya@localhost) by alcor.usc.edu (8.7.2/8.7.2/usc) with SMTP id CAA13785 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:57:24 -0700 (PDT) From: !!! Reply-To: !!! To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Pleasestop sending me all these emails! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk HI!! I don't know when I had been included in your mailing list!!..I really don't know what these are about. Please delete my account from your mailing list. Thanx! Justin From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 04:54:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA06908 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 04:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from timbuk.cray.com (root@timbuk.cray.com [128.162.19.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA06899 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 04:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crmunich0 (gwk@crmunich0.cray.com [134.14.1.1]) by timbuk.cray.com (8.7.5/CRI-gate-8-2.11) with SMTP id GAA16383 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 06:54:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: by crmunich0 id AA10906; 4.1/CRI-5.6a; Tue, 4 Jun 96 13:54:08 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 96 13:54:08 +0200 From: gwk@crmunich0.cray.com (Georg-Wilhelm Koltermann) Message-Id: <9606041154.AA10906@crmunich0> To: rhh@ct.picker.com Cc: julian@ref.tfs.com, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606040154.VAA09475@elmer.picker.com> (rhh@ct.picker.com) Subject: Re: LBA and Large IDE driver with 2.1R Reply-To: gwk@cray.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > JULIAN Elischer: > >The slice can be > 512 MB if it is not the BOOTING slice/partition > >> > >> I have FreeBSD 2.1.0-STABLE running fine on a 1.6 Gig disk, and all of > >> the FreeBSD slice lives up on the high 815 meg of the disk. I'm running > >> LBA on an Asus P55TP4XE (dual IDE onboard), and using OS/BS Beta to boot > >> this FreeBSD slice and all the others on this WD31600 as well as my WD31200 > >> on wd0. I have had 0 problems -- FreeBSD seems to pick up the translated > >> geometry and life is good. > Well, I run 960501-SNAP on my new box without a problem. First 700 MB is taken by Win95, next is OS/2's boot manager partition, then some 900 MB for the extended "partition", and then finally about 400 MB for the FreeBSD system slice (there's are also a FreeBSD data slice in the extended "partition", carrying /home and /src filesystems). The boot loader is OS/2's boot manager, but I seem to remember that I briefly tried the FreeBSD boot selector as well. I haven't seen ANY problems, works just fine. The motherboard is ASUS Pentium T2P4 (430HX). LBA is supported by the ROM BIOS. Georg-W. Koltermann, gwk@cray.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 08:39:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21385 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA21380 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA28637 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:38:44 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma028634; Tue Jun 4 15:38:38 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA03970 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:38:38 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:38:38 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199606041538.IAA03970@meerkat.mole.org> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ypxfrd Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What's yp_svc.c in /usr/src/gnu/libexec/ypxfr doing these days? Any plans? -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 09:28:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23502 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scugat1.abaforum.es (scugat1.abaforum.es [194.179.88.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA23490 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from piolindo.abaforum.es ([194.179.88.81]) by scugat1.abaforum.es (8.6.12/6.2) with SMTP id SAA06654 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:32:07 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:32:07 +0200 Message-Id: <199606041632.SAA06654@scugat1.abaforum.es> X-Sender: jesus@mail.abaforum.es X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: Jesus Rodriguez Subject: Can i use hosts.deny??? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... can i use hosts.allow and hosts.deny in freebsd??? If i can, wich format i must use for them??? I want allow telnet access to some specific machines, but have free the rest of services. Thanks in advance. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 09:58:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25515 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA25510; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 09:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uQyYY-000Qb2C; Tue, 4 Jun 96 18:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA13540; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:01:55 +0200 Message-Id: <199606041601.SAA13540@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: LBA and Large IDE driver with 2.1R To: rhh@ct.picker.com Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:01:55 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), questions@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Questions) In-Reply-To: <199606040154.VAA09475@elmer.picker.com> from "Randall Hopper" at Jun 3, 96 09:54:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Randall Hopper writes: > > JULIAN Elischer: >> The slice can be > 512 MB if it is not the BOOTING slice/partition >>> >>> I have FreeBSD 2.1.0-STABLE running fine on a 1.6 Gig disk, and all of >>> the FreeBSD slice lives up on the high 815 meg of the disk. I'm running >>> LBA on an Asus P55TP4XE (dual IDE onboard), and using OS/BS Beta to boot >>> this FreeBSD slice and all the others on this WD31600 as well as my WD31200 >>> on wd0. I have had 0 problems -- FreeBSD seems to pick up the translated >>> geometry and life is good. > > I don't believe that this describes my system. My root, user, and > swap are all above 512Mb (in the single FreeBSD slice I mentioned). The > only thing below 512Mb that's involved here is my boot loader (OS/BS) which > is on wd0 in cylinder 0. My understanding is that the boot loader just > loads up the boot sector in the FreeBSD slice and executes it, and FreeBSD > then uses the BIOS (the LBA is through my BIOS) to load the kernel. > FreeBSD is somehow picking up and using the translated LBA geometry of my > drive OK, because the kernel loads and the OS runs without a hitch (been > running great for months). > > Does the 512MB limit come from the 1024 cylinder limit? If so this > may help explain things. My true cylinder count = 3148. Cylinder count w/ > LBA = 787. If the 512MB is just a derived limit and the 1024 cyl is what > counts, this makes sense. FreeBSD uses the BIOS to load the kernel, my LBA > is through my BIOS, so to the BIOS it's loading below cylinder 1024. The 504 MB (not 512 MB) limit comes from the combination of a number of things. Most older BIOSes have a limit of 1024 cylinders, 16 heads and 63 sectors, which is enough to address 504 MB. It looks as if increasingly BIOSes are coming on the market which have raised these limits. This seems to be the case with your BIOS, which explains why you can boot at all. I'd guess it gives you 64 "heads". Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 10:26:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26935 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kon.icp.ac.ru (kon.icp.ac.ru [193.233.37.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26911 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (root@localhost) by kon.icp.ac.ru (8.6.12/8.6.5) id VAA02138 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 21:21:44 +0400 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 21:21:44 +0400 From: Victor Anisimov Message-Id: <199606041721.VAA02138@kon.icp.ac.ru> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Problems with swaping Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi everybody, I'm a computational chemist and use FreeBSD as a best PCs UNIX for scientific computations. Very recently I've collected a very strange problem with swapping on my i486DX2/66 with 8Mb RAM, VLB IDE controller and two Samsung HDDs and FreeBSD 2.1.0. I have a lot of free swap space on my PC: Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/wd0s1b 100000 3712 96224 4% Interleaved /dev/wd1b 830088 3728 826296 0% Interleaved Total 929960 7440 922520 1% but any one program can't allocate maximum 45Mb of virtual space as ps axu reports. On request of more than mentioned memory I get an error message "Can't allocate memory". All of the programs written on Fortran and C. One use static Fortran memory allocation, the other use C's dynamic allocation. Both of them show mentioned high limit on memory allocation. The same problem I have with Pentium-133 24Mb RAM, NEC SCSI adaptor, 1Gb Seagate HDD, i.e. there is a lot of free swap space and error on memory allocation with the same high limit. Can someone, FreeBSD vizard, give me some hints what should I do. If you have any commentsor suggestions, please, reply directly to me, because I'm not on mailing list. Thanks, Victor. vam@kon.icp.ac.ru P.S. Here is my kernel confyguration: # # GENERIC -- Generic machine with WD/AHx/NCR/BTx family disks # # $Id: GENERIC,v 1.46.2.6 1995/10/25 17:29:51 jkh Exp $ # machine "i386" cpu "I386_CPU" cpu "I486_CPU" cpu "I586_CPU" ident GENERIC maxusers 10 options GPL_MATH_EMULATE #Support for x87 emulation options INET #InterNETworking options FFS #Berkeley Fast Filesystem options NFS #Network Filesystem options PROCFS #Process filesystem options "COMPAT_43" #Compatible with BSD 4.3 options BOUNCE_BUFFERS #include support for DMA bounce buffers options SYSVSHM options SYSVSEM options SYSVMSG options GATEWAY options "NSWAPDEV=3" options "CHILD_MAX=128" options "OPEN_MAX=128" config kernel root on wd0 dumps on wd0 controller isa0 controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 disk fd1 at fdc0 drive 1 controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 flags 0x00ff8004 vector wdintr disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0 disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1 device sc0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector scintr device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" irq 13 vector npxintr device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" tty irq 4 vector siointr device sio1 at isa? port "IO_COM2" tty irq 3 vector siointr device ed0 at isa? port 0x320 net irq 11 iomem 0xd0000 vector edintr device ed1 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 5 iomem 0xd8000 vector edintr pseudo-device loop pseudo-device ether pseudo-device log pseudo-device sl 1 pseudo-device ppp 1 pseudo-device tun 1 pseudo-device pty 16 pseudo-device gzip # Exec gzipped a.out's pseudo-device vn 2 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 10:31:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27124 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27115 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id DAA11743 Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:28:24 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199606041728.DAA11743@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: Can i use hosts.deny??? To: jesus@abaforum.es (Jesus Rodriguez) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:28:22 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606041632.SAA06654@scugat1.abaforum.es> from "Jesus Rodriguez" at Jun 4, 96 06:32:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jesus Rodriguez writes: > Hi... can i use hosts.allow and hosts.deny in freebsd??? Sure, however, you must install the tcp_wrapper port as follows .. (as "root") cd /usr/ports/security/tcp_wrapper make all install .. then edit /etc/inetd.conf, find inetd's pid and "kill -HUP inetd-pid". Then create /usr/local/etc/hosts.allow and/or /usr/local/etc/hosts.deny > If i can, wich format i must use for them??? As documented in the man page (hosts_access), both files (in /usr/local/etc) can be simple like .. popper: 202.14.234.64/255.255.255.240 nntpd: .scgt.oz.au nntpd: news@newshost.telstra.net news@fullofruit.aarnet.edu.au .. or far more complex, as you might wish. > I want allow telnet access to some specific machines, but have free the > rest of services. This is dependent on both your /etc/inetd.conf and the hosts.* files. You choose which ones you wish to encapsulate and the permissions that go along with each service, michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 10:32:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27175 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27168 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id DAA09734; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:27:03 +1000 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:27:03 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606041727.DAA09734@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: julian@ref.tfs.com, rhh@ct.picker.com Subject: Re: LBA and Large IDE driver with 2.1R Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, nate@sri.MT.net Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Are my suppositions correct here? That is, is 1024 cylinders the real >limit, and 512MB just what it typically equates to without LBA? And Yes, 1024 cylinders is the real limit. The limit in bytes depends on the disk geometry. >(assuming yes) does FreeBSD fully support a bootable FreeBSD partition >anywhere on an LBA disk given that the remapped cylinder number is < 1024? FreeBSD supports booting from kernels anywhere on any disk given that the possibly-remapped BIOS cylinder number(s) (for all data in the kernel and all metadata associated with the kernel) are < 1024. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 11:04:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01380 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01375 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA07866 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:04:03 -0700 Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id TAA29497; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:00:50 +0100 (BST) To: Victor Anisimov cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Problems with swaping In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 21:21:44 +0400." <199606041721.VAA02138@kon.icp.ac.ru> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 19:00:48 +0100 Message-ID: <29495.833911248@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Victor Anisimov wrote in message ID <199606041721.VAA02138@kon.icp.ac.ru>: > but any one program can't allocate maximum 45Mb of virtual space > as ps axu reports. There is a per-process limit to prevent a single process creating denial-of-service type attacks. Depending on your shell, try: csh/tcsh: limit datasize unlimited limit stacksize unlimited limit memoryuse unlimited sh/bash: ulimit -d unlimited ulimit -s unlimited ulimit -v unlimited Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 11:16:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01702 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01697 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA08057; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 13:13:15 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199606041813.NAA08057@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Problems with swaping To: vam@kon.icp.ac.ru (Victor Anisimov) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 13:13:14 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606041721.VAA02138@kon.icp.ac.ru> from "Victor Anisimov" at Jun 4, 96 09:21:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, > but any one program can't allocate maximum 45Mb of virtual space > as ps axu reports. On request of more than mentioned memory > I get an error message "Can't allocate memory". All of the > programs written on Fortran and C. One use static Fortran memory > allocation, the other use C's dynamic allocation. Both of > them show mentioned high limit on memory allocation. Have you released your soft limits? If you are running csh, type "limit" to see what your current limits are. Type "unlimit" to either disable or maximize limits... I suspect you're running out of some resource :-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 11:19:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01893 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01848 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id TAA29579; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:17:06 +0100 (BST) To: Jesus Rodriguez cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Can i use hosts.deny??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:32:07 +0200." <199606041632.SAA06654@scugat1.abaforum.es> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 19:17:04 +0100 Message-ID: <29577.833912224@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jesus Rodriguez wrote in message ID <199606041632.SAA06654@scugat1.abaforum.es>: > Hi... can i use hosts.allow and hosts.deny in freebsd??? > If i can, wich format i must use for them??? > > I want allow telnet access to some specific machines, but have free the rest > of services. Install tcp_wrappers (from ports or packages). It will allow you to do that sort of access control. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 11:33:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02449 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02444 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA12943; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606041832.LAA12943@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: gusw@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Gunther Schadow) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adaptec 2940 U makes fatal bus resets! In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 11:38:01 +0200." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 11:32:45 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >hard on it. I'm so disappointed because I never had to mistrust my BSD >kernel so much: 386BSD 0.0new had longer uptimes then I experience >today! We get the idea. Let me point out, however, that 386BSD 0.0 did not have support for the 2940. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 11:56:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04881 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA04874 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA26186; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606041854.LAA26186@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Victor Anisimov cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Problems with swaping In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 21:21:44 +0400." <199606041721.VAA02138@kon.icp.ac.ru> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 11:54:34 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Very recently I've collected a very strange problem with >swapping on my i486DX2/66 with 8Mb RAM, VLB IDE controller >and two Samsung HDDs and FreeBSD 2.1.0. I have a lot of >free swap space on my PC: > >Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type >/dev/wd0s1b 100000 3712 96224 4% Interleaved >/dev/wd1b 830088 3728 826296 0% Interleaved >Total 929960 7440 922520 1% > >but any one program can't allocate maximum 45Mb of virtual space >as ps axu reports. On request of more than mentioned memory >I get an error message "Can't allocate memory". All of the >programs written on Fortran and C. One use static Fortran memory >allocation, the other use C's dynamic allocation. Both of >them show mentioned high limit on memory allocation. >The same problem I have with Pentium-133 24Mb RAM, NEC SCSI >adaptor, 1Gb Seagate HDD, i.e. there is a lot of free swap space >and error on memory allocation with the same high limit. > >Can someone, FreeBSD vizard, give me some hints what should I do. ^^^^^^ A small leathery-skinned creature that is descended from a lizard? :-) You need to incease your per-process virtual limit. This can usually be done via the "limit" or "ulimit" commands in the shell you're using. To set the global defaults/limits, see /sys/i386/include/vmparam.h (MAXDSIZ). -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 12:22:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA07000 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06995 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA20075 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:25:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Anybody have *working* snmp binaries for 2.1-stable or current? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 12:49:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08184 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com ([204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08179 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA03427; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:48:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199606041948.MAA03427@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Jaye Mathisen cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody have *working* snmp binaries for 2.1-stable or current? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 12:25:33 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 12:48:56 -0700 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Jaye Mathisen : > > Yeap, I just run CMUs agent and apps over here... They used to be in ftp.freebsd.org ... snmpwalk -v 1 rah.star-gate.com public system system.sysDescr.0 = "Unix FreeBSD 2.0." system.sysObjectID.0 = OID: enterprises.cmu.1.1 system.sysUpTime.0 = Timeticks: (5239980) 14:33:19 system.sysContact.0 = "Amancio Hasty , Tel. (415) 495 3046." system.sysName.0 = "rah.star-gate.com." system.sysLocation.0 = "San Francisco, California." system.sysServices.0 = 76 Enjoy, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 13:17:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10377 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 13:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hsc.wvu.edu (www.hsc.wvu.edu [157.182.98.68]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10365 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 13:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rjivan@localhost) by www.hsc.wvu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA06738; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:16:50 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 16:16:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Rajiv Jivan To: Jesus Rodriguez cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Can i use hosts.deny??? In-Reply-To: <199606041632.SAA06654@scugat1.abaforum.es> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Jesus Rodriguez wrote: > Hi... can i use hosts.allow and hosts.deny in freebsd??? > If i can, wich format i must use for them??? > > I want allow telnet access to some specific machines, but have free the rest > of services. > > Thanks in advance. > Look at the file /etc/login.access ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rajiv Jivan WebMaster RCB Health Sciences Center URL: http://www.hsc.wuv.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 22:25:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA03173 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 22:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA03164 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 22:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uQKaw-0004KqC; Sun, 2 Jun 96 14:21 PDT Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:21:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: Terry Lambert cc: Bruce Evans , dufault@hda, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-Reply-To: <199606012308.QAA22341@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk While looking through my copy of UNIX Internals (excellent book, BTW, see below for ordering info), I found some interesting alternative FS approaches, which seemed applicable here. I am referring to the various log-structured and journalling filesystems, including BSD-LFS which is included in FreeBSD but is currently broken because of changes to the VM system. BSD-LFS implements the entire filesystem (file data and metadata) as an append-only log, and relies on a cleaner daemon (lfs_cleanerd) to garbage-collect outdated entries. Although read/write performance is probably not any faster than our enhanced, extent-based FFS, LFS should have a great performance advantage for metadata updates, and recovery failure (no fsck). On the downside, it is very complex to implement, requires all new LFS-aware utilities, is slowed down by the cleaner daemon, and requires a large buffer cache (therefore lots of RAM) in order to achieve reasonable read performance. Fortunately, most of the implementation has already been done by 4.4BSD, we would only need to integrate it into FreeBSD's VM system and fix any implementation bugs (probably quite a few, since LFS is not in common use). As for RAM usage, the original intention was use on NNTP servers, which typically have gobs of RAM, so this shouldn't be a problem. Another, perhaps simpler solution, would be journalled metadata updates, as in Cedar or Sun's DiskSuite. This combines the FFS we already have with journalled metadata updates that guarantee consistency in the event of a crash, while allowing the actual updates to be cached longer and written optimally. In addition, Sun's implementation provides other nice features like software RAID and the ability to add a new disk and "grow" an existing filesystem onto the new partition without taking the old partition offline. Of course we can't hope for all the features of a commercial product like that, but the journalled metadata updating is probably a simpler solution than bringing LFS up to date, and has the benefit that an existing FFS partition can be upgraded quite easily (the log can be simply a fixed-size file near the center of the partition). Of course either solution will be a lot more difficult to implement initially, but should ultimately provide both faster and safer metadata updates, while simultaneously eliminating fsck delays during crash recovery! At least that's how I read things. I'm still a newbie kernel hacker, after all... Comments? ---Jake Unix Internals: The New Frontier Author: Uresh Vahalia Publisher: Prentice Hall ISBN: 0-13-101908-2 Great book, covers SVR4, 4.4BSD, Solaris, SunOS, Mach, Digital Unix, and others. Great for comparing the various approaches, or if you need to support both BSD and SVR4 (as I do). From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 23:10:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA10083 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA09917 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA25520; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606050608.XAA25520@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jake Hamby cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 02 Jun 96 14:21:53 -0700. Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:08:21 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Unix Internals: The New Frontier >Author: Uresh Vahalia >Publisher: Prentice Hall >ISBN: 0-13-101908-2 >Great book, covers SVR4, 4.4BSD, Solaris, SunOS, Mach, Digital Unix, and [...] Also a great book for novice kernel-delvers is "the Daemon book", written by some of the guys who actually wrote much of BSD and many of the things that we take for granted in modern Unix -- "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System" Authors: McKusick, Bostic, Karels, Quarterman Publisher: Addison-Wesley ISBN: 0-201-54979-4 Maybe if I say enough great things about it they'll all offer to sign it for me, and each write a small unpublished kernel secret in the margins... Speaking of filesystems, it has a very nice section on 4.4's implementatin of stackable filesystems. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 23:42:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12960 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (pp@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA12950 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au id <04141-0@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:41:56 +1000 Received: from netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id QAA12058 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:42:32 +1000 Received: by netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.8.1/DEVETIR-0.1) id GAA18461; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 06:42:43 GMT Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 06:42:43 GMT Message-Id: <199606050642.GAA18461@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.4 From: sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au (Stephen Hocking) Subject: IRC client with superb graphical enviroment & StarOffice 3.1 (fwd) To: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ----- Forwarded Message ----- Xref: pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au comp.unix.unixware.misc:14459 Path: pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!news.dfn.de!uni-muenster.de!news From: plibuda@uni-muenster.de (Patrick Libuda) Newsgroups: comp.unix.unixware.misc Subject: IRC client with superb graphical enviroment & StarOffice 3.1 Date: 3 Jun 1996 13:49:42 GMT Organization: WWU Muenster, Germany Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4ouqhm$1brm@majestix.uni-muenster.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: fb12cip8.uni-muenster.de X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6 The sweet little prog is called ZIRCON. It should be found at catless.ncl.ac.uk/programs/zircon Should you be unable to find it there try the various web search engines. I saw it at a show and (knowing Mirc) I was very impressed. It was running under FreeBSD with XFree. By the way, I got the Windoze version of StarOffice 3.1 (Try&Buy) last week and it is absolutely awesome. The Word-clone has a complete HTML 3.0 compliant web browser EMBEDDED. You can design entire webpages without leaving your word processor (allegedly...). You can even send and receive emails (allegedly...). I do not have a private account so I could not test it. The Linux version of it will be PUBLIC DOMAIN !!! Check out www.stardiv.de (also in English...) I personally do not use UNIX but mentioning it in another news group nearly caused my email-mailbox to overflow... From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 4 23:49:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA13681 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA13672 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) id BAA00451; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:48:15 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199606050648.BAA00451@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: jehamby@lightside.com (Jake Hamby) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:48:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, bde@zeta.org.au, dufault@hda, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Jake Hamby" at Jun 2, 96 02:21:53 pm Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Of course either solution will be a lot more difficult to implement > initially, but should ultimately provide both faster and safer metadata > updates, while simultaneously eliminating fsck delays during crash > recovery! At least that's how I read things. I'm still a newbie kernel > hacker, after all... Comments? > Our breakage of the BSD-LFS code isn't all that bad. I had it running pre-merged VM/Buffer Cache, and it was kind-of unstable, but very fast to say the least. ANYONE who is going to make a bona-fide attempt to get it working with FreeBSD will get alot of my hacking time for help. It is missing an LFSCK, and contrary to what alot of people might say, IMO it is needed. That is likely where most of the work would be. My guess is that just getting LFS running sort-of reliably would be 2wks+- full time of work, if you understand things to begin with. It is not a night or two of work, but probably not a couple of months full time either. There are some patches from Margot (I am not sure if we have integrated them), and also some VM system work (to eliminate alot of usually unnecessary copies). If someone will take the project on, and get the code running as-is, I will do the work to clean up the VM stuff (and help with working the kernel VM/vfs_bio interface issues.) Jeffery Hsu is working on the VFS stuff right now, so I would suggest waiting until his stuff settles out (or at least track it), but alot of prelim work could start immediately. So, I guess what I am saying is that if someone will take the lead, I'll help!!! John From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 00:38:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA19799 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA19782 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id QAA02203 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:38:40 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:38:40 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: coda questions In-Reply-To: <199606031815.LAA25273@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > One of the middle-layer VM enhancements that I plan to add for 2.2 is > > true-shared address spaces. Will this help? > > In this model, what will be the difference between a kernel thread and > multiple processes with true-shared address spaces? > > I am specifically referring to an SVR4/Solaris "LWP" kernel thread. > I'm curious to know the difference too. I read in the 4.4 BSD book that 4.4 BSD kernel threads have different process IDs. Is this still consistent with the direction of FreeBSD? Is there work being done to make the libs thread safe so that this stuff can be "turned on". -mh From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 00:56:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA22988 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22981 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA08398; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:54:54 -0700 (PDT) To: sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au (Stephen Hocking) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IRC client with superb graphical enviroment & StarOffice 3.1 (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 06:42:43 GMT." <199606050642.GAA18461@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:54:54 -0700 Message-ID: <8396.833961294@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk zircon has been in the ports collection for ages.. :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 01:13:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26128 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (pp@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA26112 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au id <18990-0@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au>; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:13:30 +1000 Received: from netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au by pandora.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.10/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id SAA14667; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:14:06 +1000 Received: from localhost by netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.6.8.1/DEVETIR-0.1) id IAA20054; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:14:18 GMT Message-Id: <199606050814.IAA20054@netfl15a.devetir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IRC client with superb graphical enviroment & StarOffice 3.1 (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:54:54 MST." <8396.833961294@time.cdrom.com> X-Face: 3}heU+2?b->-GSF-G4T4>jEB9~FR(V9lo&o>kAy=Pj&;oVOc<|pr%I/VSG"ZD32J>5gGC0N 7gj]^GI@M:LlqNd]|(2OxOxy@$6@/!,";-!OlucF^=jq8s57$%qXd/ieC8DhWmIy@J1AcnvSGV\|*! >Bvu7+0h4zCY^]{AxXKsDTlgA2m]fX$W@'8ev-Qi+-;%L'CcZ'NBL!@n?}q!M&Em3*eW7,093nOeV8 M)(u+6D;%B7j\XA/9j4!Gj~&jYzflG[#)E9sI&Xe9~y~Gn%fA7>F:YKr"Wx4cZU*6{^2ocZ!YyR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:14:17 +1000 From: Stephen Hocking Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > zircon has been in the ports collection for ages.. :-) Yeah, I mean't to trim a lot of guff out - what I was really interested in pointing out was the fact that StarOffice for Linux was going to be free! Has anyone spoken to these people & offered them a CD? Stephen -- The views expressed above are not those of the Worker's Compensation Board of Queensland, Australia. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 02:52:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA06596 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 02:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korky.fe.up.pt (korky.fe.up.pt [192.82.214.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA06486; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 02:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by korky.fe.up.pt; id AA09863; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:52:33 GMT Received: by crazy.fe.up.pt; (5.65/1.1.8.2/16Oct95-0259PM) id AA14680; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:51:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:51:51 +0100 (WET DST) From: Jorge Goncalves To: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: HELP: IDE CDROM DRIVE Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- When I bought my computer it came with a SoundBlaster 16 installed and a IDE CDROM (the CDROM came with the SB and is a CR-581) connected to the sound card. The problem is that the kernel doesn't recognize the CDROM which is connected to port 1E8H and uses the IRQ 11. I really need to get my CDROM working so, please, if anyone as an hardware configuration like this plese, please, please mail me... My hardware: > Pentium 100MHz > 16MB RAM > 2*1039MB Quantum Fireball (Connected to the first IDE port and one of them is the master and the other the slave.) > Trident 9440 1Mb > SoundBlaster 16 connected with factory settings > ISDN card (which can't be used trough FreeBSD because it is a Portuguese developed card :-( ) Again, please, I need help! Jorge Goncalves mec204@crazy.fe.up.pt .............................................................................. "The pen is mightier than the sword - so, in these dangerous times, I always carry a pen." .............................................................................. If you like privacy then finger for PGP key. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMbVmwFpS4ybTIq3ZAQGH0wP/UlifZ2k+gR7zl5IFLt/NZLcVBi7stcMj yQEGQX8V9Sqx2ymJQ4+n8G94243e28uAc6DmxEseYBQ0UOZxiUxIcKtmztq4Jcis EZrmlREBKTnan/iDg3jP3OcxkxqBuevyS4Rsl8R4bzHLdWXOQJsmM9/hqOpAWlOD MfPpKIFN/ps= =TGjU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 03:51:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA13183 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA13176 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni-kl.de (stepsun.uni-kl.de [131.246.136.50]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id DAA12427 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 03:51:25 -0700 Received: from alma.student.uni-kl.de by stepsun.uni-kl.de id aa27348; 5 Jun 96 12:45 MET DST Received: from mater.student.uni-kl.de by alma.student.uni-kl.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0uRG55-0001cnC; Wed, 5 Jun 96 12:44 CETDST Received: by mater.student.uni-kl.de (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uRG56-0001eJC; Wed, 5 Jun 96 12:44 CETDST Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:44:52 +0200 (CETDST) From: Martin Heller To: "John S. Dyson" cc: rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: coda questions In-Reply-To: <199606021949.OAA00608@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 31 May 1996, Ron G. Minnich wrote: > > > > > what degree of threading does it have? > > > thread per remote computer > > > enough threads to support demand > > > thread per exported object > > > > > and again, are tehse user-level threads (seems so). > > > Reason for asking: depending on how much threading, rfork() may do the job. > > > One of the middle-layer VM enhancements that I plan to add for 2.2 is > true-shared address spaces. Will this help? This will probably simplify/spead up the implementation of the Coda RVM (recoverable virtual memory) for FreeBSD (the generic port should work right out of the tar-file without modifications) .Threads are not necessary to compile this, but for the rest ( They're using Cthreads , no kernel threads and the sources are quite full of them). MARTIN From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 04:29:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA16197 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA16091; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uRGji-000QaAC; Wed, 5 Jun 96 13:26 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA08433; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:06:55 +0200 Message-Id: <199606051106.NAA08433@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Somebody explain this to me again.. :-) To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:06:55 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Hackers), FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current users) In-Reply-To: <199605301434.PAA01311@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> from "Paul Richards" at May 30, 96 03:34:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards writes: > > In reply to Bruce Evans who said >> >> >Why does the ``libraries'' target in /usr/src/Makefile cleans >> >automatically? Sure, you can set NOCLEANDIR but then that turns off >> >> The libraries might be different if the compiler has changed. The >> compiler might change because it's not in lib-tools. >> > > I think perhaps the make world methodology is now largely redundant. In > the early days we were so busy fixing bugs in the build > tools/libraries/headers that we needed something like this but I'm not > sure that's the case now. I heartily agree! I've been rebuilding -stable since Monday, and every time I run into a minor problem, I have to start again from scratch. > I think a make bootstrap would be more convenient these days where specific > cases for this particular release can be put thus avoiding a lot of > rebuilding that's basically unecessary. Yes, this seems the way to go. > When was the last time we changed the compiler, or libm or most of the > other stuff, doesn't make sense to include it all in the multiple > build stages. If the compiler's the reason for rebuilding, why not make the libraries dependent on it? It seems that a lot of the 'rm -rf's in the Makefiles are the result of inadequate dependencies. I would suggest that we make the standard build ('make everything'?) without any 'rm -rf', and gradually work on getting the dependencies correct. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 04:31:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA16725 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA16700 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uRGjg-000QZsC; Wed, 5 Jun 96 13:26 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA08296; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:31:37 +0200 Message-Id: <199606051031.MAA08296@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Problems compiling libc To: dima@sivka.rdy.com (Dima Ruban) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:31:37 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <960531155225.ZM8025@sivka.rdy.com> from "Dima Ruban" at May 31, 96 03:52:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dima Ruban writes: > > Hey guys! > > I'm having problems compiling libc (-stable) > > [... skipped ...] > tsort: bt_split.so > tsort: db.so > tsort: cycle in data > tsort: bt_delete.so > tsort: bt_seq.so > setinvalidrune.so: Definition of symbol `_setinvalidrune' (multiply defined) > rune.so: Definition of symbol `_setinvalidrune' (multiply defined) > rune.so: Definition of symbol `_setrunelocale' (multiply defined) > setrunelocale.so: Definition of symbol `_setrunelocale' (multiply defined) > *** Error code 1 Yes, I had this too. I checked the versions and discovered I had an ancient rune.c. A cvs update fixed it. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 07:22:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA03679 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA03663 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA19478; Wed, 5 Jun 96 10:22:00 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id KAA09865; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:21:59 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051421.KAA09865@exalt.x.org> To: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 10:21:58 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Throwing caution to the wind I've just overwritten my 2.1R system with the 2.2-960501-SNAP. Things I note thus far: # ls -l /dev/tty crw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty really wants to be: crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty otherwise xterm cannot open it. Breaking xterm is a Bad Thing (tm). There's another problem with xterm not being able to get a pty that I'll have to look into. Also, now when I try to `vipw` I get this error: # vipw vipw: /stand/ee: Undefined error: 0 vipw: /etc/master.passwd: unchanged There is no /stand/ee. Obviously this was not a problem in 2.1R. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 07:37:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04686 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA04669 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA19762; Wed, 5 Jun 96 10:37:12 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id KAA09887; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:37:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051437.KAA09887@exalt.x.org> To: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 10:37:11 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I said: >Things I note thus far: > ># ls -l /dev/tty >crw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > >really wants to be: > >crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > >otherwise xterm cannot open it. Breaking xterm is a Bad Thing (tm). > >There's another problem with xterm not being able to get a pty >that I'll have to look into. Same problem. The permissions on the ptys, i.e. /dev/ptyp? don't have group or other write permission, causing the open in xterm to fail. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 07:50:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA05604 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from starfire.mn.org (root@starfire.skypoint.net [199.86.32.187]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA05587 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:50:23 -0700 (PDT) From: john@starfire.mn.org Received: (from john@localhost) by starfire.mn.org (8.6.12/1.1) id JAA03543 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:51:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199606051451.JAA03543@starfire.mn.org> Subject: Hey! Where's isc-dhcp? To: hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:51:22 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just tried building dhcpd from FreeBSD-current, and I didn't get very far... dexter# make >> DHCPD-BETA-0.tar.gz doesn't seem to exist on this system. >> Attempting to fetch from ftp://www.isc.org/pub/dhcp/. /pub/dhcp/DHCPD-BETA-0.tar.gz: No such file. >> Attempting to fetch from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/distfiles/. /pub/FreeBSD/distfiles/DHCPD-BETA-0.tar.gz: No such file. >> Couldn't fetch it - please try to retreive this >> port manually into /usr/ports/distfiles and try again. www.isc.org/pub doesn't have anything but the usenet archives in it. distfiles doesn't have any DHCPD stuff, either. Also, searching several Archie archives turned up nothing. Is there a rock I forgot to look under? :-) John Lind, Starfire Consulting Services E-mail: john@starfire.MN.ORG USnail: PO Box 17247, Mpls MN 55417 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 07:51:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA05653 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA05642; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA08511; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:50:55 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:50:55 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606051450.AA08511@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Cc: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk (Paul Richards), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Hackers), FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: Somebody explain this to me again.. :-) In-Reply-To: <199606051106.NAA08433@allegro.lemis.de> References: <199605301434.PAA01311@cadair.elsevier.co.uk> <199606051106.NAA08433@allegro.lemis.de> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk <> I think perhaps the make world methodology is now largely redundant. In >> the early days we were so busy fixing bugs in the build >> tools/libraries/headers that we needed something like this but I'm not >> sure that's the case now. > I heartily agree! I've been rebuilding -stable since Monday, and > every time I run into a minor problem, I have to start again from > scratch. No, you don't; perhaps that is the confusing. There are certain circumstances when you Really Need something that does what `make world' does. (For example, when building a release, particularly if its codebase is slightly different from what's running on the build machine.) The problem is that people have been told ``to build the system, just type `make world' '', which is completely bogus for most people and most circumstances. What they should be told is: To build the world: echo 'INSTALL= install -C' >> /etc/make.conf cd /usr/src make obj depend all install make all install This is completely sufficient for the needs of everyone who isn't bootstrapping a new compiler or library, or building releases. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 08:22:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08947 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sovcom.kiae.su (sovcom.kiae.su [144.206.136.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA08921 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sovcom.kiae.su id AA05279 (5.65.kiae-1 ); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:06:15 +0300 Received: by sovcom.KIAE.su (UUMAIL/2.0); Wed, 5 Jun 96 18:06:15 +0300 Received: (from ache@localhost) by astral.msk.su (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA00383; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:46:48 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199606051446.SAA00383@astral.msk.su> Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:46:48 +0400 (MSD) Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606051421.KAA09865@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at "Jun 5, 96 10:21:58 am" From: =?KOI8-R?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= (aka Andrey A. Chernov, Black Mage) X-Class: Fast X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Throwing caution to the wind I've just overwritten my 2.1R system > with the 2.2-960501-SNAP. > > Things I note thus far: > > # ls -l /dev/tty > crw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > > really wants to be: > > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > > otherwise xterm cannot open it. Breaking xterm is a Bad Thing (tm). Something is wrong, but not in 2.2 source. From 2.2 MAKEDEV: mknod tty c 1 0; chmod 666 tty; chown root.wheel tty It seems that something wrong happens with distribution making. > There's another problem with xterm not being able to get a pty > that I'll have to look into. > > Also, now when I try to `vipw` I get this error: > # vipw > vipw: /stand/ee: Undefined error: 0 > vipw: /etc/master.passwd: unchanged > > There is no /stand/ee. Obviously this was not a problem in 2.1R. Your EDITOR env. somehow points to /stand/ee, change it to your editor. -- Andrey A. Chernov : And I rest so composedly, /Now, in my bed, ache@astral.msk.su : That any beholder /Might fancy me dead - http://dt.demos.su/~ache : Might start at beholding me, /Thinking me dead. RELCOM Team,FreeBSD Team : E.A.Poe From "For Annie" 1849 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 08:25:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA09334 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irene.pcug.co.uk (mmdf@Irene.PCUG.CO.UK [192.68.174.61]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA09316 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:25:01 -0700 (PDT) From: jake@ibmpcug.co.uk Received: from Kate.ibmPCUG.CO.UK by irene.pcug.co.uk id aa12658; 5 Jun 96 16:24 BST Subject: RLIMIT_NOFILE To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:24:24 +0100 (BST) Reply-To: jake@ibmpcug.co.uk X-Organisation: The PC User Group, Harrow, UK X-Address: 84-88 Pinner Road, Harrow, HA1 4LF, UK X-Phone: +44 181 863 1191 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL2] Content-Type: text Message-ID: <9606051624.aa27511@kate.ibmPCUG.CO.UK> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello Hackers, Is getrlimit really broken? SunOS deprecates usage of getdtablesize in favour of getrlimit(2) so changing the order of the ifdef to check for getdtablesize somehow first is not the proper thing to do, although it would work across all systems I believe. Fix getrlimit I say! Any takers? I am not on the list just wanted to highlight this problem. regards, jake > Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:49:42 +0100 (BST) > From: Philip Hazel > To: Jake Dias > Subject: RLIMIT_NOFILE > I ran this program: > #include > #include > #include > #include > #include > int main(void) > { > struct rlimit lim; > #ifdef RLIMIT_NOFILE > if (getrlimit(RLIMIT_NOFILE, &lim) == 0) > printf("getrlimit: max=%d cur=%d\n", lim.rlim_max, lim.rlim_cur); > else printf("getrlimit failed: %s\n", strerror(errno)); > #else > printf("getdtablesize = %d\n", getdtablesize()); > #endif > return 0; > } > on several machines. I got: > Solaris 2.4: getrlimit: max=1024 cur=64 > FreeBSD: getrlimit: max=-1 cur=2147483647 > NetBSD: getrlimit: max=-1 cur=2147483647 > Ultrix: getdtablesize = 64 > Linux: getdtablesize = 256 > HP-UX: getrlimit: max=1024 cur=60 > BSDI: getrlimit: max=9830 cur=0 > OSF1: getrlimit: max=4096 cur=4096 > SunOS4: getrlimit: max=256 cur=64 > -- > Philip Hazel University Computing Service, > ph10@cus.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG, > P.Hazel@ucs.cam.ac.uk England. Phone: +44 1223 334714 -- Jake Dias jake@pcug.co.uk ...!ibmpcug!jake My PGP Key? - finger jake@pcug.co.uk or email with Subject: get pgp key From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 09:41:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13930 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA13923 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA21930; Wed, 5 Jun 96 12:40:27 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id MAA10064; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:40:25 -0400 Message-Id: <199606051640.MAA10064@exalt.x.org> To: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 05 Jun 1996 18:46:48 EST. <199606051446.SAA00383@astral.msk.su> Organization: X Consortium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 12:40:25 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for the tips Andrey. > > > > Throwing caution to the wind I've just overwritten my 2.1R system > > with the 2.2-960501-SNAP. > > > > Things I note thus far: > > > > # ls -l /dev/tty > > crw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > > > > really wants to be: > > > > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > > > > otherwise xterm cannot open it. Breaking xterm is a Bad Thing (tm). > > Something is wrong, but not in 2.2 source. From 2.2 MAKEDEV: > mknod tty c 1 0; chmod 666 tty; chown root.wheel tty > It seems that something wrong happens with distribution making. Yup, that's not the way they came out of the tar file. I used --unlink to remove the 2.1 files before extracting the SNAP version. > > > > Also, now when I try to `vipw` I get this error: > > # vipw > > vipw: /stand/ee: Undefined error: 0 > > vipw: /etc/master.passwd: unchanged > > > > There is no /stand/ee. Obviously this was not a problem in 2.1R. > > Your EDITOR env. somehow points to /stand/ee, change it > to your editor. Yup, /.cshrc is the culprit. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 10:33:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA18243 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18237 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uRMRu-0004KpC; Wed, 5 Jun 96 10:32 PDT Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-Reply-To: <199606050608.XAA25520@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > >Unix Internals: The New Frontier > >Author: Uresh Vahalia > >Publisher: Prentice Hall > >ISBN: 0-13-101908-2 > >Great book, covers SVR4, 4.4BSD, Solaris, SunOS, Mach, Digital Unix, and > [...] > > Also a great book for novice kernel-delvers is "the Daemon book", > written by some of the guys who actually wrote much of BSD and many of > the things that we take for granted in modern Unix -- > > "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System" > Authors: McKusick, Bostic, Karels, Quarterman > Publisher: Addison-Wesley > ISBN: 0-201-54979-4 Yep, I better buy this one too. "Unix Internals" is nifty, but focuses on SVR4 a little more than 4.4BSD. > Maybe if I say enough great things about it they'll all offer to sign > it for me, and each write a small unpublished kernel secret in the > margins... > > Speaking of filesystems, it has a very nice section on 4.4's > implementatin of stackable filesystems. Now, stackable filesystems sound kind of interesting. I'd like to look into that, to see how difficult it would be to "inherit" some nice features on top of FFS, such as ACL's, metadata logging, or whatever. ---Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 10:47:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA19700 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA19695 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id DAA27840; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:42:56 +1000 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:42:56 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606051742.DAA27840@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jake@ibmpcug.co.uk Subject: Re: RLIMIT_NOFILE Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Is getrlimit really broken? No. >> #ifdef RLIMIT_NOFILE >> if (getrlimit(RLIMIT_NOFILE, &lim) == 0) >> printf("getrlimit: max=%d cur=%d\n", lim.rlim_max, lim.rlim_cur); >> else printf("getrlimit failed: %s\n", strerror(errno)); >> #else Script started on Thu Jun 6 03:39:42 1996 ttyv0:bde@alphplex:/tmp> cc -c -Wall z.c z.c: In function `main': z.c:13: warning: int format, different type arg (arg 2) z.c:13: warning: int format, different type arg (arg 3) z.c:14: warning: implicit declaration of function `strerror' z.c:14: warning: format argument is not a pointer (arg 2) ttyv0:bde@alphplex:/tmp> exit Script done on Thu Jun 6 03:39:52 1996 lim.rlim_max and lim.rlim_cur have type long long so thay can not be printed using %d. >> FreeBSD: getrlimit: max=-1 cur=2147483647 >> NetBSD: getrlimit: max=-1 cur=2147483647 lim.rlim_max is actually 0x7fffffffffffffff. The low 32 bits of it look like -1. The high 32 bits of it leak into the next %d. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 11:31:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22495 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scooter.quickweb.com (scooter.quickweb.com [199.212.134.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22485 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by scooter.quickweb.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id OAA00330; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:27:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:27:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Mayo To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: /stand upgrade Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just upgraded 2.1R to 2.1-STABLE for the first time. I think everything went okay. For some reason make world would screw up, so i just did: make depend all install make all make install And everything seems okay. (I recompiled a new kernel after the make install) - the machine booted no problem and says the kernel is 2.1-STABLE. And ps, etc work fine.. But I noticed that /stand/sysinstall report "Wrong Architecture" when I run it. I looked at the date and it's Nov 18 -- so it wasn't upgraded. I want to use it to add some packages, so how to I upgrade the version of sysinstall I have. I say it in the /usr/src/release/sysinstall directory, but the makefile seems a little funny (like it was part of termcap or something?) Anyways, how do I get my sysinstall working again? TIA, -mark :%t$sig -- Oops, thought I was in vi.. ------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | C-Soft www.quickweb.com | ------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 13:30:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01050 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sisyphos (Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.212.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01004 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by Sisyphos id AA09770 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:26:01 +0200 Message-Id: <199606052026.AA09770@Sisyphos> From: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de (Stefan Esser) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:26:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: john@starfire.mn.org "Hey! Where's isc-dhcp?" (Jun 5, 9:51) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(2) 7/9/95) To: john@starfire.mn.org Subject: Re: Hey! Where's isc-dhcp? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jun 5, 9:51, john@starfire.mn.org wrote: } Subject: Hey! Where's isc-dhcp? } I just tried building dhcpd from FreeBSD-current, and I didn't get } very far... } } dexter# make } >> DHCPD-BETA-0.tar.gz doesn't seem to exist on this system. } >> Attempting to fetch from ftp://www.isc.org/pub/dhcp/. } /pub/dhcp/DHCPD-BETA-0.tar.gz: No such file. } >> Attempting to fetch from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/distfiles/. } /pub/FreeBSD/distfiles/DHCPD-BETA-0.tar.gz: No such file. } >> Couldn't fetch it - please try to retreive this } >> port manually into /usr/ports/distfiles and try again. } } www.isc.org/pub doesn't have anything but the usenet archives in it. } distfiles doesn't have any DHCPD stuff, either. Also, searching } several Archie archives turned up nothing. Is there a rock I forgot } to look under? :-) I already received another message indicating that the TAR file is gone. It had been announced as a beta version for public testing, and it may well have been superseeded or retracted, meanwhile. Just fetch ftp://ftp.uni-koeln.de/packages/FreeBSD/distfile/DHCPD-BETA-0.tar.gz if you want to give it a try anyway ... Regards, STefan -- Stefan Esser, Zentrum fuer Paralleles Rechnen Tel: +49 221 4706021 Universitaet zu Koeln, Weyertal 80, 50931 Koeln FAX: +49 221 4705160 ============================================================================== http://www.zpr.uni-koeln.de/~se From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 13:51:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03562 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03553; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA29627; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:46:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606052046.NAA29627@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: dyson@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:46:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: jehamby@lightside.com, terry@lambert.org, bde@zeta.org.au, dufault@hda, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606050648.BAA00451@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Jun 5, 96 01:48:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Of course either solution will be a lot more difficult to implement > > initially, but should ultimately provide both faster and safer metadata > > updates, while simultaneously eliminating fsck delays during crash > > recovery! At least that's how I read things. I'm still a newbie kernel > > hacker, after all... Comments? > > Our breakage of the BSD-LFS code isn't all that bad. I had it running > pre-merged VM/Buffer Cache, and it was kind-of unstable, but very fast > to say the least. ANYONE who is going to make a bona-fide attempt to > get it working with FreeBSD will get alot of my hacking time for help. I'm personally now less interested in LFS than I am in soft updates, and more in the direction of a general graph theory soloution to FS's as a set of event nodes, and consistency guarantees as a set of event handling ording rules with soft updates implemented as an inter-node conflict resoloution schema. It's admittedly a bizarre way of looking at FS's, if nothing else. An FFS with soft udates performs within 5% of memory speed, according to Ganger & Patt's paper. Source code is provided in adulterated form in their revised Appendix A of the online version of their paper, but is buggy in places (probably a result of the sanitization process), and is applicable only to FFS, really (definitely a result of not thinking of the FS in terms of events dictated by the FS semantics). > It is missing an LFSCK, and contrary to what alot of people might say, > IMO it is needed. That is likely where most of the work would be. How complex do you view this to be? I believe that most of the LFS single file/directory problems with a catastrophic failure can be handled on mount by rolling transaction back (rolling them forward would require journalling, not just log-structuring). One of the problems I have with LFS in this regard that I *wouldn't* have with an event-based soft updates implementation is implied state tracking across multiple FS objects. One example of this would be a dBase III database file with an index file. When the database changes, the index needs to change as well, iempotently. This is handleable for dBase III by rebuilding the index, but a true relational database implementation could not be so easily fixed. A soft udates implementation would allow you to impose event dependency on the graph for multi-object transactions (assuming multi-object ordering enforcement, like for an LFS log that won't overwrite for two seperate events in the same transaction). So what I'm interested in, eventually, needs both. The LFS is needed for rollback, but isn't really a big speed issue (IMO). > My guess is that just getting LFS running sort-of reliably would be > 2wks+- full time of work, if you understand things to begin with. It > is not a night or two of work, but probably not a couple of months > full time either. This is probably a fairly liberal estimate. I might put it closer th three weeks, but then if you did the work, you'd have an advantage with the VM pieces. 8-). > There are some patches from Margot (I am not sure if we have > integrated them), and also some VM system work (to eliminate alot > of usually unnecessary copies). Margot's patches have *not* been integrated. I think there is some significant work, especially in the cleaner, since the release of the Lite2 code. > If someone will take the project on, and get the code running as-is, > I will do the work to clean up the VM stuff (and help with working > the kernel VM/vfs_bio interface issues.) > > Jeffery Hsu is working on the VFS stuff right now, so I would suggest > waiting until his stuff settles out (or at least track it), but alot > of prelim work could start immediately. > > So, I guess what I am saying is that if someone will take the lead, I'll > help!!! I'm not willing to take the LFS on, right now, but let me echo John's sentiments: I'll help out in anything I can for you. I suspect that there will be some UFS code (which is shared by FFS, MFS, and LFS) that will need to be changed; I'm probably a good guy for that. If anyone was thinking about jumping in, if you can get a commit of John's time like this, then this is probably the best chance you'll get for a nice, compartmentalized kernel hack, where you don't have to worry about related systems being killed by whatever changes you want to make. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 13:56:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04147 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA04141 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA29664; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:51:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606052051.NAA29664@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:51:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606051421.KAA09865@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Jun 5, 96 10:21:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Things I note thus far: > > # ls -l /dev/tty > crw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > > really wants to be: > > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > > otherwise xterm cannot open it. Breaking xterm is a Bad Thing (tm). Hmmm... I wonder if this change should wait until the xterm sets the ownership on the pty (ie: maybe it should not happen at all). Specifically, you really don't want someone to be able to open the slave side before the pty is allocated, and has a master -- maybe not even then, until the program that grabbed the master provides the slave process itself? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 14:15:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05423 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peedub.gj.org (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05379 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.gj.org (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA13547 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:12:44 GMT Message-Id: <199606052312.XAA13547@peedub.gj.org> X-Authentication-Warning: peedub.gj.org: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6 4/21/95 To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 12:40:25 EST." <199606051640.MAA10064@exalt.x.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:12:44 +0000 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" writes: >> > Throwing caution to the wind I've just overwritten my 2.1R system >> > with the 2.2-960501-SNAP. >> > >> > Things I note thus far: >> > >> > # ls -l /dev/tty >> > crw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty >> > >> > really wants to be: >> > >> > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty >> > >> > otherwise xterm cannot open it. Breaking xterm is a Bad Thing (tm). xterm is supposed to be suid root so that can make a utmp entry. At least, it is on all the systems I have access to. --- Gary Jennejohn Home - Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de Work - gjennejohn@frt.dec.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 16:13:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA14957 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14911 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id AAA23804; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:09:15 +0100 (BST) To: Mark Mayo cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: /stand upgrade In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 14:27:25 EDT." Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 00:09:14 +0100 Message-ID: <23802.834016154@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Mayo wrote in message ID : > I just upgraded 2.1R to 2.1-STABLE for the first time. I think everything > went okay. For some reason make world would screw up, so i just did: > make depend all install > make all > make install > > And everything seems okay. (I recompiled a new kernel after the make > install) - the machine booted no problem and says the kernel is > 2.1-STABLE. And ps, etc work fine.. But I noticed that /stand/sysinstall > report "Wrong Architecture" when I run it. You took out ``pseudo-device gzip'' from your kernel makefile. All the programs in /stand are run through gzip to enable them to fit on the boot floppy. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 16:14:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15064 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA15047 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA29091; Wed, 5 Jun 96 19:14:09 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id TAA10564; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:14:07 -0400 Message-Id: <199606052314.TAA10564@exalt.x.org> To: Terry Lambert Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 05 Jun 1996 13:51:09 EST. <199606052051.NAA29664@phaeton.artisoft.com> Organization: X Consortium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:14:07 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Things I note thus far: > > > > # ls -l /dev/tty > > crw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > > > > really wants to be: > > > > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > > > > otherwise xterm cannot open it. Breaking xterm is a Bad Thing (tm). > > Hmmm... > > I wonder if this change should wait until the xterm sets the ownership > on the pty (ie: maybe it should not happen at all). Specifically, you > really don't want someone to be able to open the slave side before the > pty is allocated, and has a master -- maybe not even then, until the > program that grabbed the master provides the slave process itself? > Hmmm... One of these days I should really sit down and understand masters and slaves and ttys and ptys and such. I'll just add it to my list of things to do. Maybe I'll get to it before my kids go off to college in ten years. :-) All I know is the permissions in the tar file don't match what I get if I remake the device entries with MAKEDEV. I also know that xterm works on dozens of platforms, including FreeBSD 2.1R. Now that doesn't mean I think xterm is perfect, or even good. In fact I think xterm is a big piece of shit. Nevertheless, it works. I'm just letting you all know about what looks like a problem. If FreeBSD is really planning on changing the default permissions of the device entries, I think it would be a good idea to fix xterm to work with the new permissions, and while you're at it submit a bug-report to the X Consortium or XFree86 with the necessary changes to xterm. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 16:17:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15334 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA15323 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA29133; Wed, 5 Jun 96 19:16:35 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id TAA10572; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:16:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199606052316.TAA10572@exalt.x.org> To: Gary Jennejohn Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:12:44 EST. <199606052312.XAA13547@peedub.gj.org> Organization: X Consortium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:16:34 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> > Throwing caution to the wind I've just overwritten my 2.1R system > >> > with the 2.2-960501-SNAP. > >> > > >> > Things I note thus far: > >> > > >> > # ls -l /dev/tty > >> > crw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > >> > > >> > really wants to be: > >> > > >> > crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 1, 0 5 Jun 10:16 /dev/tty > >> > > >> > otherwise xterm cannot open it. Breaking xterm is a Bad Thing (tm). > > xterm is supposed to be suid root so that can make a utmp entry. At least, > it is on all the systems I have access to. Installed is one thing. :-) I never install, so my xterms are never suid root. My "installed" xterm is just a symlink back into my build tree. I don't care about utmp entries, but that's just me. Some sites specifically don't install xterm suid root because it's a security hole. xterm should work whether it's suid root or not. It did in 2.1. Andrey points out that the permissions in the tar file are wrong. If I remake them with MAKEDEV they have the "correct" permissions. And for what it's worth (probably not much) xterm works (suid root and otherwise) on every system I have access to, and that's quite a few. If FreeBSD wants to break xterm, I think that would be a Bad Thing. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY X Consortium ------- End of Unsent Draft From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 16:45:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA17864 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp.DK.net (uucp@uucp.DK.net [193.88.44.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA17853; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pingnet (uucp@localhost) by uucp.DK.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id BAA03433; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:44:26 +0200 Received: from kyklopen by ic1.ic.dk with UUCP id AA22098 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4j); Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:12:57 +0200 Received: (from staff@localhost) by kyklopen.ping.dk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA02946; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:57:39 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:57:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Thomas Sparrevohn To: Terry Lambert Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, jehamby@lightside.com, terry@lambert.org, bde@zeta.org.au, dufault@hda, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-Reply-To: <199606052046.NAA29627@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Charset: ISO_8859-1 X-Char-Esc: 29 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: [snap] > > I'm personally now less interested in LFS than I am in soft updates, > and more in the direction of a general graph theory soloution to FS's > as a set of event nodes, and consistency guarantees as a set of event > handling ording rules with soft updates implemented as an inter-node > conflict resoloution schema. > I don't see any conflict there. The right thing to do would be to redo the Vfs/Vnode according to soft-updates. But could'nt the two things be combined? The approach suggested by Ganger and Patt could be applied to LFS in the directory handling code that expects some kind of write ordering anyhow. [snip] > > How complex do you view this to be? I believe that most of the LFS > single file/directory problems with a catastrophic failure can be > handled on mount by rolling transaction back (rolling them forward > would require journalling, not just log-structuring). > Yes that is one of the major problems. You can only expect the roll forward in LFS to handle segment inconsistency not structural inconsistency. > One of the problems I have with LFS in this regard that I *wouldn't* > have with an event-based soft updates implementation is implied > state tracking across multiple FS objects. One example of this would > be a dBase III database file with an index file. When the database > changes, the index needs to change as well, iempotently. This is > handleable for dBase III by rebuilding the index, but a true relational > database implementation could not be so easily fixed. I don't think that the FS layer has to have anything to do with event graphs. I think it should be possible to have the VFS/Vnode layer handle that kind of dependency. > > A soft udates implementation would allow you to impose event dependency > on the graph for multi-object transactions (assuming multi-object > ordering enforcement, like for an LFS log that won't overwrite for > two seperate events in the same transaction). > Would'nt that be the same as a general transaction based VFS? Regards Thomas From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 17:21:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA20100 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seraglio.staidan.qld.edu.au (staidans.client.uq.edu.au [130.102.39.106]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA19934 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aidan.staidan.qld.edu.au (aidan.staidan.qld.edu.au [203.12.39.2]) by seraglio.staidan.qld.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA14640 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:14:48 +1000 Received: from AIDAN/SpoolDir by aidan.staidan.qld.edu.au (Mercury 1.21); 6 Jun 96 10:14:45 +1000 Received: from SpoolDir by AIDAN (Mercury 1.22-b2); 6 Jun 96 10:14:38 +1000 From: "PETER STUBBS" Organization: St Aidan's AGS To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:14:33 -1000, EST Subject: Lyx port anyone? / IBM wireless lan? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Message-ID: <20E8F6C34C2@aidan.staidan.qld.edu.au> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is anyone working on a port for Lyx the Latex wordprocessor? Is the general feeling that we should just run the linux version? I've had a very quick look at the code, but there seems to be some uglyness about the way it uses xforms that didn't work on my 2.1 system. On another topic, has anyone had a look at wireless networking? I'm about to install the IBM 'lan entry' system & would like to hear the horror stories before I start. Cheers, Peter Peter Stubbs, St Aidan's AGS. ph +61-07-3379-9911, fax +61-07-3379-9432 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 18:33:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA22807 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA22798 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from circle.net (demeter.circle.net [207.79.160.41]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with ESMTP id SAA09238 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from troy@localhost) by circle.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA15360; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:31:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Troy Arie Cobb To: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just a quick question... anyone done/is working on a Samba FS? I'd love to be able to mount as local a drive on my NT machine (NFS is, of course, an option but who wants to pay for the NFS server for NT? blech). TIA - troy Troy Arie Cobb troy@circle.net ------------------------------------------------------ | Circle Net, Inc. | global internet access | | http://www.circle.net | for western north carolina | | info@circle.net | and beyond... | | 704-254-9500 | | ------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 18:52:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA23668 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA23662 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA13854; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:45:35 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606060215.LAA13854@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:45:35 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606051437.KAA09887@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Jun 5, 96 10:37:11 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kaleb S. KEITHLEY stands accused of saying: > > > >There's another problem with xterm not being able to get a pty > >that I'll have to look into. > > Same problem. The permissions on the ptys, i.e. /dev/ptyp? don't > have group or other write permission, causing the open in xterm > to fail. Something must have gone wrong with the installation/upgrade procedure. Virgin-installed SNAP systems don't have any problems with device permissions. (I've done dozens of installs with it so far) > Kaleb KEITHLEY -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 18:57:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA23955 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA23950 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA13886; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:50:55 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606060220.LAA13886@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:50:54 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606051640.MAA10064@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Jun 5, 96 12:40:25 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kaleb S. KEITHLEY stands accused of saying: > > > > Something is wrong, but not in 2.2 source. From 2.2 MAKEDEV: > > mknod tty c 1 0; chmod 666 tty; chown root.wheel tty > > It seems that something wrong happens with distribution making. > > Yup, that's not the way they came out of the tar file. I used --unlink > to remove the 2.1 files before extracting the SNAP version. Ah. You didn't run the 2.2 installer, you just unpacked the distfiles? None of the archivers in use (tar, cpio, pax) can handle the large minor numbers used by some devices in /dev, which is why the installer remakes everything after it's unpacked it. Note also that your /etc/sysconfig will be out of sync with the /etc/rc* files because it's automagically generated by the installer. > Yup, /.cshrc is the culprit. That should be /root/.cshrc, surely? > Kaleb KEITHLEY -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 19:33:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA25868 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25861 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA14098; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:24:58 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606060254.MAA14098@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Lyx port anyone? / IBM wireless lan? To: PETERS@staidan.qld.edu.au (PETER STUBBS) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:24:57 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20E8F6C34C2@aidan.staidan.qld.edu.au> from "PETER STUBBS" at Jun 6, 96 10:14:33 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk PETER STUBBS stands accused of saying: > > Is anyone working on a port for Lyx the Latex wordprocessor? Is the > general feeling that we should just run the linux version? I thought there was one already... > On another topic, has anyone had a look at wireless networking? I'm > about to install the IBM 'lan entry' system & would like to hear the > horror stories before I start. Bandwidth _sucks_ on all of the AT&T/DEC stuff. I don't know about any of the others, and I don't know what IBM are using. (The Wavelan gear seems to run out of puff at about 200K/sec.) > Peter Stubbs, St Aidan's AGS. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 19:48:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA26687 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hq.icb.chel.su (icb-rich-gw.icb.chel.su [193.125.10.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA26677 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (babkin@localhost) by hq.icb.chel.su (8.7.5/8.6.5) id IAA04168; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:26:41 +0600 (GMT+0600) From: "Serge A. Babkin" Message-Id: <199606060226.IAA04168@hq.icb.chel.su> Subject: Re: Lyx port anyone? / IBM wireless lan? To: PETERS@staidan.qld.edu.au (PETER STUBBS) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:26:40 +0600 (ESD) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20E8F6C34C2@aidan.staidan.qld.edu.au> from "PETER STUBBS" at Jun 6, 96 10:14:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Is anyone working on a port for Lyx the Latex wordprocessor? Is the > general feeling that we should just run the linux version? I got it compiled from the same sources as the Linux version without any problems (at least 0.81 version). > I've had a very quick look at the code, but there seems to be some > uglyness about the way it uses xforms that didn't work on my 2.1 > system. I run it on 2.0.5 and -current. It works fine with xforms 0.75 but dumps core with xforms 0.81. Xforms for PERL do the same thing with 0.81 so I think the problem is in this version of xforms. -SB From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 20:05:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA27353 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA27347 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scooter.quickweb.com (scooter.quickweb.com [199.212.134.8]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with ESMTP id UAA10124 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by scooter.quickweb.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA01232; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:58:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Mayo To: Troy Arie Cobb cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Troy Arie Cobb wrote: > Just a quick question... > anyone done/is working on a Samba FS? > I'd love to be able to mount as local > a drive on my NT machine (NFS is, of course, > an option but who wants to pay for the > NFS server for NT? blech). Huh? If you want to 'mount' a samba share ON the NT box, that's exectly what samba does - it's a LanMan server and you can connect a samba share from UNIX as a local drive on NT. What I want is the opposite - I want to be able to "mount" (as a filesystem) a LanMan share from another machine, NT for example. I'd love to be able to mount -t smd nt_machine:/bigdisk/share /mnt !!! I think it would be great to have an NFS client-like samba program, instead of smbclient (ftp-like). I guess I mean compliment smbclient actually... Overall, the samba suite is superb! Unfortunately, I don't have the skills or the time to write an NFS-like client for samba.. but it would be super handy!! -Mark :%t$sig -- Oops, thought I was in vi.. ------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | C-Soft www.quickweb.com | ------------------------------------------- > > TIA > - troy > > Troy Arie Cobb > troy@circle.net > > ------------------------------------------------------ > | Circle Net, Inc. | global internet access | > | http://www.circle.net | for western north carolina | > | info@circle.net | and beyond... | > | 704-254-9500 | | > ------------------------------------------------------ > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 20:11:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA27605 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA27600 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA08163; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:10:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:10:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: PETER STUBBS Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lyx port anyone? / IBM wireless lan? In-Reply-To: <20E8F6C34C2@aidan.staidan.qld.edu.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is anyone working on a port for Lyx the Latex wordprocessor? Is the > general feeling that we should just run the linux version? No, don't do that. I tried running the linux version with linux-emu and for some reason or other it didn't work...oh, I think I remember. If I remember right, the version I was trying to use wanted some ELF libs I didn't have. (Linux_lib-2.0 btw.) > I've had a very quick look at the code, but there seems to be some > uglyness about the way it uses xforms that didn't work on my 2.1 > system. Use the Imakefile to compile it. You need to change the various directories to point at the right things (TeX in particular) and change the -lforms to -lxforms. I also had to copy forms.h from the xforms port to that directory because for some reason the compiler couldn't find it when making the port. Someone with half a clue could probably fix this, I'm rather lame at doing this sort of stuff. But once you get it working, it works great! Good luck, Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 20:13:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA27698 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA27691 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usa.nai.net (usa.nai.net [204.71.21.10]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id UAA10215 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chris.nai.net (chris.nai.net [204.71.21.7]) by usa.nai.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id XAA23430 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:04:58 -0400 Message-ID: <31B64B01.3290@nai.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:05:37 -0400 From: chris Reply-To: chris@usa.nai.net Organization: NAI X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: (no subject) References: <199606060203.TAA17925@who.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk PETER STUBBS wrote: > On another topic, has anyone had a look at wireless networking? I'm > about to install the IBM 'lan entry' system & would like to hear the > horror stories before I start. I use Xircom wireless ethernet and love it. The company has an office about 100 meters long and I use 2 wall mounted transceivers to cover the whole thing. Speed is only 2-3Mbps, but my T-1 is only 1.5Mbps so the Xircom is great! Only Xircom has this tiny antenna that pokes out of the laptop about 1cm. Great. If there were only FreeBSD drivers! (how can I help make that a reality?) chris From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 20:49:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA00678 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from circle.net (demeter.circle.net [207.79.160.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA00494 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from troy@localhost) by circle.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA15772; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:20:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Troy Arie Cobb To: Mark Mayo cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Samba, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Mark Mayo wrote: > > Just a quick question... > > anyone done/is working on a Samba FS? > > I'd love to be able to mount as local > > a drive on my NT machine (NFS is, of course, > > an option but who wants to pay for the > > NFS server for NT? blech). > > Huh? If you want to 'mount' a samba share ON the NT box, that's exectly > what samba does - it's a LanMan server and you can connect a samba share > from UNIX as a local drive on NT. > > What I want is the opposite - I want to be able to "mount" (as a > filesystem) a LanMan share from another machine, NT for example. I'd love > to be able to mount -t smd nt_machine:/bigdisk/share /mnt !!! I think it > would be > great to have an NFS client-like samba program, instead of smbclient > (ftp-like). I guess I mean compliment smbclient actually... > > Overall, the samba suite is superb! Unfortunately, I don't have the > skills or the time to write an NFS-like client for samba.. but it would > be super handy!! Ah, I suppose my first post wasn't clear. Mounting a LanMan-shared drive on my FreeBSD box is what I want. Yes, I'm already mounting my FreeBSD drives on my NT box, but I want the other direction too. A la NFS. I might tackle such a beast if there is no one else already working on it. However, it would definitely be a WHILE before I would have the time to do the project justice. As an aside, I could certainly avoid all this if there was a freely available NFS server for NT. I did a semi-extensive surf for one but came up nil. - troy Troy Arie Cobb troy@circle.net ------------------------------------------------------ | Circle Net, Inc. | global internet access | | http://www.circle.net | for western north carolina | | info@circle.net | and beyond... | | 704-254-9500 | | ------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 20:51:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA00764 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA00759 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA24338; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:51:22 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:51:22 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606060351.VAA24338@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: chris@usa.nai.net Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Xircom driver (was Re: (no subject)) In-Reply-To: <31B64B01.3290@nai.net> References: <199606060203.TAA17925@who.cdrom.com> <31B64B01.3290@nai.net> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On another topic, has anyone had a look at wireless networking? I'm > > about to install the IBM 'lan entry' system & would like to hear the > > horror stories before I start. > > I use Xircom wireless ethernet and love it. The company has an office > about 100 meters long and I use 2 wall mounted transceivers to cover the > whole thing. Speed is only 2-3Mbps, but my T-1 is only 1.5Mbps so the > Xircom is great! Only Xircom has this tiny antenna that pokes out of > the laptop about 1cm. Great. If there were only FreeBSD drivers! > (how can I help make that a reality?) Contact Xircom and get the programming information on their cards. In the past they've refused to release this information. Once you have that, write a driver! Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 21:25:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01990 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA01985 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA02721; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606060424.VAA02721@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 05 Jun 96 13:46:20 -0700. <199606052046.NAA29627@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 21:24:12 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm personally now less interested in LFS than I am in soft updates, >and more in the direction of a general graph theory soloution to FS's >as a set of event nodes, and consistency guarantees as a set of event >handling ording rules with soft updates implemented as an inter-node >conflict resoloution schema. Terry, have you ever thought about going into teaching? Someone who is so adept at coming up with so many weird theoretical solutions on the fly should definitely be working in a University environment somewhere... ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 22:41:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04827 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04802; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA06473; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:41:13 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id HAA00896; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:40:43 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.Alpha.4/keltia-uucp-2.8) id CAA04584; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:47:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199606060047.CAA04584@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: Somebody explain this to me again.. :-) To: wollman@lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:47:50 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: grog@lemis.de, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9606051450.AA08511@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> from Garrett Wollman at "Jun 5, 96 10:50:55 am" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2073 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Garrett Wollman said: > echo 'INSTALL= install -C' >> /etc/make.conf > cd /usr/src > make obj depend all install > make all install > > This is completely sufficient for the needs of everyone who isn't > bootstrapping a new compiler or library, or building releases. This is more or less what: setenv NOCLEAN yes make world buys you (except that you're not doing the build-tools target which buys you more time). Thanks to Peter... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #6: Tue Jun 4 00:25:26 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 5 22:44:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04962 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gordius.gordian.com (gordius.gordian.com [192.73.220.81]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04956; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from delphi.gordian.com (delphi.gordian.com [192.73.220.125]) by gordius.gordian.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id WAA20845; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from steve@localhost) by delphi.gordian.com (8.7.2/8.6.9) id WAA04867; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606060544.WAA04867@delphi.gordian.com> From: Steve Khoo To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org CC: steve@gordian.com In-reply-to: Steve Khoo's message of Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: NFS problem: Irix 5.2 server, 2.2-960501-SNAP client References: <199606040148.SAA12823@delphi.gordian.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Help!!! I haven't got even one response. Am I the only one that have this problem? Anyway, I tried the latest -current and rolled back to 2.1R and still see the same problem with both. Thanks. SEK From: Steve Khoo Subject: NFS problem: Irix 5.2 server, 2.2-960501-SNAP client To: freebsd-current-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:48:31 -0700 (PDT) I have an interesting nfs problem... The server is running irix 5.2 and the client is running 2.2-960501-SNAP. The mount exit without any error, but when I do df, ls or pwd I get the following: # df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd0a 49231 14290 31003 32% / /dev/sd0s1f 1388387 446552 830765 35% /usr /dev/sd0s1e 49231 797 44496 2% /var procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc hermes:/n/hermes 1468230 1316047 152183 90% /n/hermes hermes:/n/hermes2 997025 867008 130016 87% /n/hermes2 delphi:/n/delphi 639048 639048 0 100% /n/delphi delphi:/n/delphi2 639048 639048 0 100% /n/delphi2 # cd /n/delphi # ls ls: .: Not a directory # pwd pwd: Not a directory # The last two filesystems listed in df are the problem filesystems. The funny thing is, I can nfs mount another SGI(hermes) also running irix 5.2 without any problems. The server with problems(delphi) is a Challenge S server and (hermes) is Indigo. The only difference I can think of is, (hermes) was upgraded from irix 4.05 and the filesystem was created in irix 4.05. All filesystems on (delphi) was created in irix 5.2. Any ideas? I'd appreciate any help. Thanks! SEK From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 00:29:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA08316 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA08143 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA26975; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:20:57 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA26491; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:20:57 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA04486; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:14:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606060714.JAA04486@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:14:38 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606052316.TAA10572@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at "Jun 5, 96 07:16:34 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote: > xterm should work whether it's suid root or not. It did in 2.1. Andrey > points out that the permissions in the tar file are wrong. If I remake > them with MAKEDEV they have the "correct" permissions. That's why the final installation step is to re-run a MAKDEV for all devices. (A box appears: ``Remaking all devices.'', and since the day Jordan went to async mounted file systems, it's sometimes even the longest lasting box on your screen at all. :) No wonder, installing the bindist now can be done in less than five minutes.) Note that the tar file is likely to have other device entries wrong, e.g. those with a minor number that's too large to fit into a tar file. (What does your /dev/rsd0.ctl look like, is it in the tar file at all?) Of course, if you decide to _not_ pick sysinstall, you are responsible yourself to DTRT. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 01:38:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA10945 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA10940 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id BAA19604 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:36:58 -0700 Received: from caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.12]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA01115 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:25:09 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider Received: (from wosch@localhost) by caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.7.2/8.7.2) id KAA29609; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:25:02 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:25:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606060825.KAA29609@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: slow link to freefall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk packet loss to mae-e-1.e0.crl.com is 20%, to freefall 70%! Whats wrong? Sup for -stable? traceroute to freebsd.org (204.216.27.4), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 7 ipgate1.WiN-IP.DFN.DE (188.1.144.58) 18 ms 15 ms 16 ms 8 193.174.74.129 (193.174.74.129) 28 ms 24 ms 21 ms 9 pppl-frg.es.net (192.188.33.9) 129 ms 129 ms 133 ms 10 umd2-pppl2.es.net (134.55.12.162) 181 ms 156 ms 184 ms 11 mae-e-1.e0.crl.com (192.41.177.104) 195 ms * 271 ms 12 * * * 13 * * * 14 * T1-CDROM-00-EX.US.CRL.NET (165.113.118.2) 2035 ms * 15 * * freefall.FreeBSD.ORG (204.216.27.4) 1686 ms From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 01:53:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA11895 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toplink1.toplink.net (toplink1.toplink.net [194.163.120.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA11752 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ck@localhost) by toplink1.toplink.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA18660 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:49:14 +0200 From: Christian Kratzer Message-Id: <199606060849.KAA18660@toplink1.toplink.net> Subject: Help: Kernel panic ... To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:49:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I was just reading my news with tin on this 64MB P100 ASUS TP4 FreeBSD2.1r machine (no load) when suddenly following scrolled in my face. ;-((( ( I was not amused ) I've been seeing this a couple of times on our machines since we installed a new site wide kernel. I have appended the dmesg output after the crash and the diffs from GENERIC to my kernel config. Could it have to do with the berkeley packet filter bpf I recently added to our kernel config ? I never had that in there before. Apart from that I have removed the wd* devices and added the cy0 driver. I'd be thankfull for any pointers. Greetings Christian Kratzer TopLink ----------- Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode fault virtual address = 0x0 fault code = supervisor write, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf01a389e code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 2 (pagedaemon) interrupt mask = net tty bio panic: page fault syncing disks... FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #1: Tue May 28 11:10:18 MET DST 1996 root@toplink1.toplink.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/TOPLINK_GENERIC CPU: 99-MHz Pentium 735\\90 or 815\\100 (Pentium-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x526 Stepping=6 Features=0x1bf real memory = 67108864 (65536K bytes) avail memory = 62758912 (61288K bytes) Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 not found at 0x280 ed1 not found at 0x300 cy0 not found sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A sio2 at 0x3e8-0x3ef irq 5 on isa sio2: type 16550A sio3 at 0x2e8-0x2ef irq 9 on isa sio3: type 16550A lpt0 not found at 0xffffffff lpt1 not found at 0xffffffff lpt2 not found at 0xffffffff mse0: wrong signature ff mse0 not found at 0x23c fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in bt0 not found at 0x330 uha0 not found at 0x330 ahc1 not found ahb0 not found aha0 not found at 0x330 aic0 not found at 0x340 nca0 not found at 0x1f88 nca1 not found at 0x350 sea0 not found wt0 not found at 0x300 mcd0 not found at 0x300 mcd1: timeout getting status mcd1 not found at 0x340 matcdc0 not found at 0x230 scd0 not found at 0x230 ie0 not found at 0x360 1 3C5x9 board(s) on ISA found at 0x300 ep0 at 0x300-0x30f irq 10 on isa ep0: aui/bnc/utp[*BNC*] address 00:a0:24:2e:44:d8 irq 10 ix0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ep0 at 0x300 le0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ep0 at 0x300 lnc0 not found at 0x280 lnc1 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ep0 at 0x300 ze0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ep0 at 0x300 zp0 not probed due to I/O address conflict with ep0 at 0x300 npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface Probing for devices on the PCI bus: chip0 rev 2 on pci0:0 chip1 rev 2 on pci0:7 ncr0 rev 2 int a irq 11 on pci0:12 ncr0 waiting for scsi devices to settle (ncr0:0:0): "MICROP 4421-07 0124SJ 24SJ" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ncr0:0:0): Direct-Access sd0(ncr0:0:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 2047MB (4193360 512 byte sectors) (ncr0:1:0): "CONNER CFP1080S 3939" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1(ncr0:1:0): Direct-Access sd1(ncr0:1:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 1030MB (2110812 512 byte sectors) (ncr0:2:0): "CONNER CFP2105S 2.14GB 2D4D" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd2(ncr0:2:0): Direct-Access sd2(ncr0:2:0): FAST SCSI-2 100ns (10 Mb/sec) offset 8. 2048MB (4194304 512 byte sectors) changing root device to sd0a WARNING: / was not properly dismounted. ----------- Here are the diffs from the 2.1r GENERIC kernel -------------- 6a7 > 11,12c12,13 < ident GENERIC < maxusers 10 --- > ident TOPLINK_GENERIC > maxusers 64 40,46c41,47 < controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 vector wdintr < disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0 < disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1 < < controller wdc1 at isa? port "IO_WD2" bio irq 15 vector wdintr < disk wd2 at wdc1 drive 0 < disk wd3 at wdc1 drive 1 --- > #controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 vector wdintr > #disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0 > #disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1 > > #controller wdc1 at isa? port "IO_WD2" bio irq 15 vector wdintr > #disk wd2 at wdc1 drive 0 > #disk wd3 at wdc1 drive 1 79a81 > 88a91,92 > device cy0 at isa? tty irq 15 iomem 0xd8000 iosiz 0x2000 vector cyintr > 115,116d118 < pseudo-device bpfilter 4 #Berkeley packet filter < 120,122c122,124 < pseudo-device sl 1 < # ijppp uses tun instead of ppp device < #pseudo-device ppp 1 --- > pseudo-device sl 12 > pseudo-device ppp 12 > pseudo-device bpfilter 4 #Berkeley packet filter 124c126,127 < pseudo-device pty 16 --- > pseudo-device pty 32 > pseudo-device speaker #Play IBM BASIC-style noises out your speaker -------------- -- TopLink GbR, Internet Services info@toplink.net Christian Kratzer http://www.toplink.net/ Phone: +49 7452 87174 Fax: +49 7452 87175 FreeBSD spoken here! From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 02:21:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA13018 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA13010; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA06337; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606060921.CAA06337@kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Adaptec 2940UW problems Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 02:21:38 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Why does this happen (-stable release)? Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: ahc0 rev 0 int a irq 9 on pci0:8 Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: ahc0: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: ahc0 waiting for scsi devices to settle Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: (ahc0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST15150W 0023" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 4095MB (8388315 512 byte sectors) Jun 6 01:55:23 testing /kernel: ahc0:A:1: refuses WIDE negotiation. Using 8bit transfers ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Is this a real error message? ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet Learn from the mistakes of others. You don't have time to make them all yourself. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 03:33:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA15355 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA15333 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uRcME-000Hz6C; Thu, 6 Jun 96 12:32 MET DST Received: by ernie.kts.org (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0uRbiD-00002OC; Thu, 6 Jun 96 11:50 MET DST Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: Lyx port anyone? / IBM wireless lan? To: babkin@hq.icb.chel.su (Serge A. Babkin) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:50:41 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: PETERS@staidan.qld.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606060226.IAA04168@hq.icb.chel.su> from "Serge A. Babkin" at Jun 6, 96 08:26:40 am Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From the keyboard of Serge A. Babkin: > I run it on 2.0.5 and -current. It works fine with xforms 0.75 but > dumps core with xforms 0.81. Xforms for PERL do the same thing with > 0.81 so I think the problem is in this version of xforms. 2 or 3 weeks ago i got the latest Lyx beta and xforms 0.81. That Lyx dumps core because i had no .lyxrc file in my home - the core dump is obviously caused by a null pointer to fclose, it also dumps core at other places because of this. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@kts.org Hamburg, Europe (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 03:35:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16002 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA15994 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA04762; Thu, 6 Jun 96 06:35:14 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id GAA11248; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 06:35:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199606061035.GAA11248@exalt.x.org> To: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:35:12 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ls -l of any file with a date in May prints the Month as "Mai". I don't suppose Joerg minds. :-) -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 03:39:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA17102 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA17077 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA04771; Thu, 6 Jun 96 06:38:15 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id GAA11257; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 06:38:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199606061038.GAA11257@exalt.x.org> To: Michael Smith Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: /dev/tty and nits in 2.2-960501-SNAP In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Jun 1996 11:50:54 +0930. <199606060220.LAA13886@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Organization: X Consortium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 06:38:13 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Kaleb S. KEITHLEY stands accused of saying: > > > > > > Something is wrong, but not in 2.2 source. From 2.2 MAKEDEV: > > > mknod tty c 1 0; chmod 666 tty; chown root.wheel tty > > > It seems that something wrong happens with distribution making. > > > > Yup, that's not the way they came out of the tar file. I used --unlink > > to remove the 2.1 files before extracting the SNAP version. > > Ah. You didn't run the 2.2 installer, you just unpacked the distfiles? Guilty. Next you're going to tell me I should have read the instructions. :-) > > None of the archivers in use (tar, cpio, pax) can handle the large minor > numbers used by some devices in /dev, which is why the installer > remakes everything after it's unpacked it. > > Note also that your /etc/sysconfig will be out of sync with the /etc/rc* > files because it's automagically generated by the installer. > > > Yup, /.cshrc is the culprit. > > That should be /root/.cshrc, surely? Same thing. One is linked to the other. That must be the way they came out of the tar file. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 04:07:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA18577 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hq.icb.chel.su (icb-rich-gw.icb.chel.su [193.125.10.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA18566 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (babkin@localhost) by hq.icb.chel.su (8.7.5/8.6.5) id RAA23928; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:04:27 +0600 (GMT+0600) From: "Serge A. Babkin" Message-Id: <199606061104.RAA23928@hq.icb.chel.su> Subject: Re: Lyx port anyone? / IBM wireless lan? To: hm@kts.org Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:04:27 +0600 (ESD) Cc: PETERS@staidan.qld.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Hellmuth Michaelis" at Jun 6, 96 11:50:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >From the keyboard of Serge A. Babkin: > > > I run it on 2.0.5 and -current. It works fine with xforms 0.75 but > > dumps core with xforms 0.81. Xforms for PERL do the same thing with > > 0.81 so I think the problem is in this version of xforms. > > 2 or 3 weeks ago i got the latest Lyx beta and xforms 0.81. That Lyx dumps > core because i had no .lyxrc file in my home - the core dump is obviously > caused by a null pointer to fclose, it also dumps core at other places > because of this. May be Lyx needs to be recompiled to use xforms 0.81. Or may be xforms 0.81 do not work with 2.0.5. The only thing I changed was the xforms shared library (I runned ldconfig to change them and nothing more). -SB From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 04:13:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA18892 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA18886 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA17019; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:06:39 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606061136.VAA17019@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:06:38 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606061035.GAA11248@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Jun 6, 96 06:35:12 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kaleb S. KEITHLEY stands accused of saying: > > > ls -l of any file with a date in May prints the Month as "Mai". Not here it doesn't : drwxr-xr-x 12 msmith 1000 512 May 10 16:33 work > I don't suppose Joerg minds. :-) That you didn't read the instructions? I'd assume not 8) > Kaleb KEITHLEY -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 04:39:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA20005 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA19993 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA05051; Thu, 6 Jun 96 07:38:13 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id HAA11363; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:38:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199606061138.HAA11363@exalt.x.org> To: Michael Smith Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:06:38 +0930. <199606061136.VAA17019@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Organization: X Consortium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:38:11 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > > ls -l of any file with a date in May prints the Month as "Mai". > > Not here it doesn't : > > drwxr-xr-x 12 msmith 1000 512 May 10 16:33 work > Try setting your LANG environment variable to en_AU.ISO_8859-1. It only prints "May" in the C locale. > > I don't suppose Joerg minds. :-) > That you didn't read the instructions? I'd assume not 8) Funny? -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 04:48:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA20480 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA20475 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA17093 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:42:13 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606061212.VAA17093@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Multidrop RS-485/RS-422 driver now available To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:42:12 +0930 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk After more months than I care to remember (and less feedback than I would have liked 8( ), I'm pleased to announce that the second public release of my 'mdsio' driver is now available. If you have a use for a driver for RS-422 or RS-485 networks in a FreeBSD environment, this may be just what you're looking for. If you're interested, it's available as : ftp://genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au/pub/mdsio-beta1.tar.gz Don't be misled by the RCS Id tags in the source; the code was recently moved under CVS' wing and the numbers were restarted. Note also that I'd like to get this into the -current tree if there are no objections. _Someone_ has to be interested 8) Here's the top of the README; enjoy. ---8<---snip---8<--- MDSIO Multidrop RS-422/485 driver for FreeBSD and 8250-family UARTS. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (c) 1995,1996 Michael Smith and Genesis Software msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Release beta-1 INTRODUCTION ============ This is the second public release of the 'mdsio' driver for FreeBSD 2.2. This driver provides an interface for user programs to communicate on multidrop networks using the standard 9-bit protocol. (Other modes can be supported with minor modifications). Both 2- and 4-wire operation is supported. In 2-wire mode, cards with automatic transmit control (eg. the Advantech PCL-74x series) or ordinary 8250-based serial interfaces with external interface hardware can be used. Either DTR or RTS can be used for external drive control, in either 'normal' (assert to transmit) or 'inverted' (assert to receive) modes. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 04:52:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA20644 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA20639 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA17107; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:45:50 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606061215.VAA17107@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:45:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606061138.HAA11363@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Jun 6, 96 07:38:11 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kaleb S. KEITHLEY stands accused of saying: > > > ls -l of any file with a date in May prints the Month as "Mai". > > > > Not here it doesn't : > > Try setting your LANG environment variable to en_AU.ISO_8859-1. It > only prints "May" in the C locale. It _still_ doesn't : legume:~>uname -a FreeBSD legume.atrad.adelaide.edu.au 2.2-CURRENT FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Fri May 31 14:16:09 CST 1996 msmith@legume.atrad.adelaide.edu.au:/remote2/work/interface/sys/compile/LEGUME i386 legume:~>echo $LANG en_AU.ISO8859-1 legume:~>ls -ld work drwxr-xr-x 12 msmith 1000 512 May 10 16:33 work > > That you didn't read the instructions? I'd assume not 8) > > Funny? Uhh, no, I assumed he didn't mind that you didn't read the instructions. 8) I'd suggest running 'tzetup' on the random assumption that something thinks you're somewhere you aren't, due to your random scribbling on things with the distribution tarballs. > Kaleb KEITHLEY -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 04:58:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA20897 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA20892 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA05157; Thu, 6 Jun 96 07:56:20 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id HAA11410; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:56:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199606061156.HAA11410@exalt.x.org> To: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:38:11 EDT. <199606061138.HAA11363@exalt.x.org> Organization: X Consortium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:56:19 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > > ls -l of any file with a date in May prints the Month as "Mai". > > > > Not here it doesn't : > > > > drwxr-xr-x 12 msmith 1000 512 May 10 16:33 work > > > > Try setting your LANG environment variable to en_AU.ISO_8859-1. It > only prints "May" in the C locale. > Hmmm. Never mind. Dunno why the --unlink didn't delete all the symlinks left over in /usr/share/locale from 2.1 and earlier. Thus the de_DE.ISO_8859-1 LC_TIME file got dumped into the old lt_LN.ISO_8859-1 directory. Seems like there might be a bug in tar that made it skip the unlink of the symlink because it thought it was unnecessary because the directory already seemed to exist? Are you going to tell me that sysinstall would have taken care of this if I had used it? -- Kaleb KEITHLEY From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 06:52:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA28991 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 06:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA28986 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 06:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA17499; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:45:51 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606061415.XAA17499@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:45:50 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606061156.HAA11410@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Jun 6, 96 07:56:19 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kaleb S. KEITHLEY stands accused of saying: > > Hmmm. Never mind. Dunno why the --unlink didn't delete all the > symlinks left over in /usr/share/locale from 2.1 and earlier. > Thus the de_DE.ISO_8859-1 LC_TIME file got dumped into the old > lt_LN.ISO_8859-1 directory. ... > Are you going to tell me that sysinstall would have taken care > of this if I had used it? Yes. It uses an advanced external utility called 'newfs' which has shown a close-to-100% success rate at removing symlinks. 8) > Kaleb KEITHLEY -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 07:17:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA03357 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from expo.x.org (expo.x.org [198.112.45.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA03349 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exalt.x.org by expo.x.org id AA07107; Thu, 6 Jun 96 10:16:27 -0400 Received: from localhost by exalt.x.org id KAA11572; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:16:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199606061416.KAA11572@exalt.x.org> To: Michael Smith Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:45:50 +0930. <199606061415.XAA17499@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Organization: X Consortium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 10:16:25 EST From: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Hmmm. Never mind. Dunno why the --unlink didn't delete all the > > symlinks left over in /usr/share/locale from 2.1 and earlier. > > Thus the de_DE.ISO_8859-1 LC_TIME file got dumped into the old > > lt_LN.ISO_8859-1 directory. > ... > > Are you going to tell me that sysinstall would have taken care > > of this if I had used it? > > Yes. It uses an advanced external utility called 'newfs' which has shown > a close-to-100% success rate at removing symlinks. > > 8) You know, I don't find this sort of crap to be very helpful. Good thing I'm not paying for it. I would have been really unhappy if I had run sysinstall and it had newfs'd my disk. REALLY unhappy. -- Kaleb KEITHLEY X Consortium From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 07:22:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA03972 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katy.apana.org.au (katy.apana.org.au [202.12.89.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA03894; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from davo@localhost) by katy.apana.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA10602; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:51:39 +0930 From: Dave Edwards Message-Id: <199606061421.XAA10602@katy.apana.org.au> Subject: Interface problem To: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:51:38 +0930 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Is there some limit set on the number of slip/ppp/tun interfaces available in 2.1-RELEASE ? I've got 20 tun, 20 slip and 15 pp devices configured in my kernel but we seem to be having some problems when we get up around 12 - 13 (in total) in use.. User ppp caused a problem at first with "device not configured" sometimes and "can't find ifindex" at others. We got past that one with some mods to the ppp code but yesterday, a cslip connection failed rather strangely. Sliplogin worked ok and configured the interface (sl8) but I could not get it to come up. "ifconfig -au" did not show sl8 "ifconfig sl8 up" did not change the state "ifconfig sl8" did show the source and destination correctly. We tried twice with the same result. The same person has had no trouble up till now, and he's got on since. He's using ppp until I can sort it out. Problem is we rarely get more than 12 connections at a time so its hard to troubleshoot.. I tracked down the earlier ppp problem to the kernel returning ENOXIO from the call to open the tun device in os.c . The change I made was to ignore this and try the next device until one worked. This is now working fine, but I can't explain why the kernel should return ENOXIO even when the device is in use. The reason I'm thinking there may be some limit is that the ppp problem only showed itself when we got up to about 12 or 13 interfaces in use, and there was 12 in use during the slip problem also. I'm fairly sure the problem is with the kernel configuration but can't find where I've gone wrong.. The machine is a 486 with 8 Meg ram and 2 16ye cyclades cards. TIA, dave -- Dave Edwards davo@katy.apana.org.au || davo@frisbee.net.au Adelaide, South Australia ---- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 07:49:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA06344 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA06337 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA17592; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 00:42:55 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606061512.AAA17592@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 00:42:54 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606061416.KAA11572@exalt.x.org> from "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" at Jun 6, 96 10:16:25 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kaleb S. KEITHLEY stands accused of saying: > > Yes. It uses an advanced external utility called 'newfs' which has shown > > a close-to-100% success rate at removing symlinks. > > > > 8) > > You know, I don't find this sort of crap to be very helpful. Good > thing I'm not paying for it. It's called humour. It's something that lots of people _do_ pay for, and I offered it _free_, in the hope that you might raise a smile over it. > I would have been really unhappy if I had run sysinstall and it had > newfs'd my disk. REALLY unhappy. You do get upset easily though. 8( The point being that sysinstall _asks_ if you want to newfs your filesystems, indvidually, so you can toast the ones with the old OS on them, and leave the ones with your data. I can't think of any more reasonable way of doing it. It's certainly not reasonable to expect it to second-guess every possible change that might have been made to the system and intelligently remove/move/update things. That's _seriously_ hard work. It sounds like what you found is a legitimate bogon for the 'upgrade' case if sysinstall doesn't handle it properly. Jordan? > Kaleb KEITHLEY -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 08:32:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA09211 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA09174 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA20353; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:30:55 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:30:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Steve Khoo cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NFS problem: Irix 5.2 server, 2.2-960501-SNAP client In-Reply-To: <199606060544.WAA04867@delphi.gordian.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk be sure you're not accidentally running nfs v3 to the irix 5.2 server. irix 5.3 has a bug here that we found: it doesn't properly return an error when NFS clients try to do nfs v3, and the v2 and v3 ops are similar enough that things will almost work (It should return the version number error, but does not). I'm willing to assume that 5.2 has the same bug ... ron Ron Minnich |"Inferno runs on MIPS ..., Intel ..., and AMD's rminnich@sarnoff.com |29-kilobit-per-second chip-based architectures ..." (609)-734-3120 | Comm. week, may 13, pg. 4. ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 08:35:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA09462 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA09453 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.20]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <14994(15)>; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:31:46 PDT Received: from gnu.mc.xerox.com (gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com) by gemini.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-TB) id AA14117; Thu, 6 Jun 96 11:32:04 EDT Received: by gnu.mc.xerox.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13265; Thu, 6 Jun 96 11:32:03 EDT Message-Id: <9606061532.AA13265@gnu.mc.xerox.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: gdb 4.16 and other misc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:31:59 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I tried to configure gdb 4.16 on freebsd (2.1 and 5/1/96 snapshot). Has anyone had success (I'm using a different directory to build in, the source is nfs mounted). Using combinations of gnu utils (bash) and native, each seemed to fail in different ways... I also tried installed autoconf 2.10 and it complained about old m4 (even though m4 1.4 is on my path). BTW -- I built a bash 2.0alpha and had other miscellaneous problems... Is the 5/1/96 libc made with -fomit-frame-pointer? I can't get reasonable back traces from system calls on my core dumps... Is there a libc with -g turned on? marty leisner@sdsp.mc.xerox.com Member of the League for Programming Freedom (http://www.lpf.org) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic Arthur C. Clarke, The Lost Worlds of 2001 -- marty leisner@sdsp.mc.xerox.com Member of the League for Programming Freedom From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 08:35:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA09495 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA09473; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606061535.IAA09473@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Dave Hayes cc: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adaptec 2940UW problems In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 02:21:38 PDT." <199606060921.CAA06337@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 08:35:12 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Why does this happen (-stable release)? > >Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: ahc0 r >ev 0 int a irq 9 on pci0:8 >Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: ahc0: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCB >s >Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: ahc0 waiting for scsi devices to settle >Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: (ahc0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST15150W 0023" type 0 fi >xed SCSI 2 >Jun 6 01:55:22 testing /kernel: sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 4095MB (8388315 >512 byte sectors) >Jun 6 01:55:23 testing /kernel: ahc0:A:1: refuses WIDE negotiation. Using 8b >it transfers > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Is this a real error message? I can stick it under an "if(bootverbose)" if it will make you happy. If the device is a narrow device, its normal. If not, its not. >------ >Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org >Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet > >Learn from the mistakes of others. > You don't have time to make them all yourself. -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 09:15:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12640 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arizona.EDU (Penny.Telcom.Arizona.EDU [128.196.128.217]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA12629 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov by Arizona.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #2381) id <01I5L0AFKS4WCF0Q24@Arizona.EDU>; Thu, 06 Jun 1996 09:15:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost by sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06527; Thu, 06 Jun 1996 09:14:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 09:14:26 -0700 From: Renaissance Man - The Enigma Subject: SOSS...? Was Re: Samba, etc. In-reply-to: "Your message of Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:20:22 -0400." To: Troy Arie Cobb Cc: Mark Mayo , hackers@freebsd.org, doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov Message-id: <9606061614.AA06527@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Previously: >I'm already mounting my FreeBSD >drives on my NT box, but I want the other direction too. A la NFS. I don't think it's for NT, but a starting point might be SOSS... (NFS server for a PC) Last I heard it was at either spdcc.com or at hilbert.wharton.upenn.edu... Good luck, -Doug Doug Wellington doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov System and Network Administrator US Geological Survey, Tucson, AZ Project Office According to proposed Federal guidelines, this message is a "non-record". Hmm, I wonder if _everything_ I say is a "non-record"...? FreeBSD and Apache - the best real tools for the virtual world! Check out www.freebsd.org and www.apache.org... Just say NO to Netscape Navigator! From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 10:24:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA18203 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA18000 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id SAA26880; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:16:52 +0100 (BST) To: Troy Arie Cobb cc: Mark Mayo , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Samba, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:20:22 EDT." Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 18:16:51 +0100 Message-ID: <26877.834081411@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Troy Arie Cobb wrote in message ID : > On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Mark Mayo wrote: > As an aside, I could certainly avoid all this if there was a freely available > NFS server for NT. I did a semi-extensive surf for one but came up nil. My memory dredges up the name `soss' for some reason. I THINK there is an NT version. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 10:44:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA20263 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.cts.com (mailhub.cts.com [192.188.72.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA20258 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.cts.com(really [198.68.174.34]) by mailhub.cts.com via smail with esmtp id for ; Thu, 6 Jun 96 10:44:04 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.1.92 1996-Mar-19 #3 built 1996-Apr-21) Received: (from root@localhost) by io.cts.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA03500 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:44:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Morgan Davis Message-Id: <199606061744.KAA03500@io.cts.com> Subject: Stable To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:44:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Have been trying for two weeks now to "make world" after supping from the "stable" tree. I thought the idea of stable was that known-to-work components would be stored there. However, each attempt (at least six) has failed with make or link errors. And when it does this, libraries like telnet are broken (_enctype_names undefined, etc.) which really bites. Can we expect stable to become stable again some time in the near future? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 11:08:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22697 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA22684 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA01468; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:02:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606061802.LAA01468@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:02:04 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606060424.VAA02721@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jun 5, 96 09:24:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I'm personally now less interested in LFS than I am in soft updates, > >and more in the direction of a general graph theory soloution to FS's > >as a set of event nodes, and consistency guarantees as a set of event > >handling ording rules with soft updates implemented as an inter-node > >conflict resoloution schema. > > Terry, have you ever thought about going into teaching? Someone who > is so adept at coming up with so many weird theoretical solutions on > the fly should definitely be working in a University environment > somewhere... ;-) That wasn't wierd -- that was a logical extension of the soft updates work, just bringing it up a level of scope. I didn't really think of it on the fly -- it took me a long time to come up with it. It's just that the opportunity to talk about it presented itself. 8-). You want wierd: I want a logical numeric name space for files so that the number is hooked to function and invariant under renaming. This would let me rename /etc/passwd to a Spanish or Japanese name (for instance) and still let /bin/login and everything that references the file by number chain continue to function normally. Then I want name catalogs for every language. Now *that's* wierd. 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 11:18:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23273 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23268 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uRjdC-0004KQC; Thu, 6 Jun 96 11:18 PDT Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:17:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: I hate Solaris ACL's!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Okay, I've got a big FFS partition I'm trying to share between FreeBSD-current and Solaris/x86, which sounds like a recipe for trouble, I know, but it seems to be working well (assuming you fsck thoroughly when you switch to the other OS), except for one big problem, thanks to Solaris 2.5's ACL implementation. Every time I boot into Solaris, its fsck gives a bunch of "I=xxxx BAD/CLEARED ACL (FIXED) I=6846" errors. Then when I look at any directory owned by myself (UID 6846), I find that many of them have switched to 000 permissions, so I have to chmod lots of stuff before I can even use it! Now, can some filesystem guru (Terry?) who maybe knows how Solaris is implementing ACL's tell me if it would be feasible to patch FreeBSD's FFS implementation to insert some null ACL entry in order to keep Solaris happy? Perhaps this is stored in the 30 bytes of the inode "for future expansion", and maybe we can put different values there. It's interesting that my little hack has been as successful as it has, since neither OS was designed for filesystem compatibility with the other, but I assume this is because Sun needed to keep Solaris UFS at least reasonably backwords compatible to SunOS for the SPARC version. BTW, this filesystem was built with "newfs -O" to use 4.2/4.3BSD compatibility mode. ---Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 11:24:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23626 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23620 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA26192; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:23:53 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:23:53 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606061823.MAA26192@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Morgan Davis Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stable In-Reply-To: <199606061744.KAA03500@io.cts.com> References: <199606061744.KAA03500@io.cts.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Have been trying for two weeks now to "make world" after supping from > the "stable" tree. It's been broken since May 29th. > Can we expect stable to become stable again some time in the near > future? Umm, are you on the -stable mailing list? If you were, you'd know the status of the tree. I posted an announcement last night that explained what happened, and what was done to correct it. Get it out of the archives and you'll be in the know. (You may want to consider subscribing to the stable mailing list if you run stable). Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 11:58:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25551 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25540; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA01582; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:52:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606061852.LAA01582@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? To: staff@kyklopen.ping.dk (Thomas Sparrevohn) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:52:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, jehamby@lightside.com, bde@zeta.org.au, dufault@hda, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Thomas Sparrevohn" at Jun 6, 96 00:57:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [snap] > > > I'm personally now less interested in LFS than I am in soft updates, > > and more in the direction of a general graph theory soloution to FS's > > as a set of event nodes, and consistency guarantees as a set of event > > handling ording rules with soft updates implemented as an inter-node > > conflict resoloution schema. > > I don't see any conflict there. The right thing to do would be > to redo the Vfs/Vnode according to soft-updates. But could'nt the > two things be combined? The approach suggested by Ganger and Patt > could be applied to LFS in the directory handling code that expects > some kind of write ordering anyhow. ummmmm yes, and no. Yes, it could, but no, you wouldn't end up with anything that applied globally to all the VFS's if you did it. The VFS stacking is: <-- vfs_syscalls.c, NFS (why "cookies" suck) [ ...] <-- "stacking" file system <-- "disk" file system Not: [ ...] <-- seperate block I/O interface with encapsulation of system dependencies And the place that the soft updates go is in the ordering dependencies in each of the VFS layers and their interaction with the bio interface. In other words, the VFS used to describe the top end consumer interface, now it describes the top end consumer interface and the stacking interface, and there is still no rigidly defined bottom end that is not system/bio/VM dependent. A generic soft-update based bio is a setp in the direction of a defined, system independant, bottom end. Soft updates aren't necessary for LFS, and I kind of doubt that you could implement them at the directory layer in UFS without any changes to FFS/MFS/LFS to also use soft updates. > [snip] > > > > > How complex do you view this to be? I believe that most of the LFS > > single file/directory problems with a catastrophic failure can be > > handled on mount by rolling transaction back (rolling them forward > > would require journalling, not just log-structuring). > > Yes that is one of the major problems. You can only expect the roll forward > in LFS to handle segment inconsistency not structural inconsistency. Since the log is the structure, the strucutral consistency is guaranteed, actually. That's why it's typically a faster startup than UFS following a failure. Getting a bad block in the middle of a log extent is why you would need a seperate fsck. This assumes that the hard error isn't handled by telling the FS, through a yet-to-be-defined VOP, that the block is bad, so the FS should do FS-dependent recovery for whatever type of block it was that died. This is, in any case, a highly improbable failure (though it might be the only one left to consider if LFS works as promised once it it production quality 8-)). If you look at the UFS code, there is a synchronization of the per cylinder group allocation map on mount, and no other fsck needed. In the case of a block failure, it's up to the driver to detect it and notify the FS "this block has been destroyed". In theory, this can be done *without* needing an fsck -- though we'd need a per FS bad-block handling functon, and a driver callback of some kind. I expect that most bad blocking will be handled transparently through a media perfection layer of some kind at the logical device level on it's way through the devfs framework. The final piece of the puzzle is the bio request "recover this block", which will do whtever recovery protocol has been defined (reading the block using hysteresis, bit-voting, whatever) and then provide a replacement block with the "recovered" data and a confidence level. Then the FS uses the confidence level to determine its own recovery protocol. Pretty much, you'd get failure message logged to the console and wherever else, but everything that can be done about the failure will already be done by the time you get the message. > > One of the problems I have with LFS in this regard that I *wouldn't* > > have with an event-based soft updates implementation is implied > > state tracking across multiple FS objects. One example of this would > > be a dBase III database file with an index file. When the database > > changes, the index needs to change as well, iempotently. This is > > handleable for dBase III by rebuilding the index, but a true relational > > database implementation could not be so easily fixed. > > I don't think that the FS layer has to have anything to do with event > graphs. I think it should be possible to have the VFS/Vnode layer handle > that kind of dependency. Yes, a transaction tracking system would be implemented at the VFS to syscall transition, not in the FS itself. Or it would be implemented in a stacking layer (just as easily). The interaction with the FS is that you have a transactioning graph and you have an FS event graph, and in order to guarantee no semantic race conditions, you would need to use the same hierarchy for both. Really, you can think of this as assuring transitive closure over an arbitrary set of combined graph segments. In lock parlance, this would be deadlock avoidance instead of deadlock detection (in the FS, you "detect" it by getting bad data after a failure). The problem is that you can't treat each FS layer as an anonymous block store if you are depending on the semantics being implemented above the consumer interface. A VFS stacking module consumes an underlying VFS differently than the system call layer (or NFS) consumes a VFS, and if you depend on ordering guarantees, you *must* combine the graph cycles. > > A soft udates implementation would allow you to impose event dependency > > on the graph for multi-object transactions (assuming multi-object > > ordering enforcement, like for an LFS log that won't overwrite for > > two seperate events in the same transaction). > > Would'nt that be the same as a general transaction based VFS? Yes, with the exception that there are no longer any potential races for the transactioning systems interaction with the underlying LFS. The transactioning is still logically seperate from the LFS, which supplies rollback capability. For UFS and other FS's, a two stage "rollback" VFS layer could (but need not) be implemented. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 12:49:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00289 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00284; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id FAA18814; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:45:20 +1000 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:45:20 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606061945.FAA18814@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, wollman@lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Somebody explain this to me again.. :-) Cc: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> echo 'INSTALL= install -C' >> /etc/make.conf >> cd /usr/src >> make obj depend all install >> make all install >> >> This is completely sufficient for the needs of everyone who isn't >> bootstrapping a new compiler or library, or building releases. >This is more or less what: >setenv NOCLEAN yes >make world >buys you (except that you're not doing the build-tools target which buys >you more time). Thanks to Peter... Except it isn't obvious how to continue it when it crashes. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 13:05:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01409 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01376 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id NAA19461 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA01722; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:55:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606061955.MAA01722@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: your mail To: mark@quickweb.com (Mark Mayo) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:55:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: troy@circle.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Mark Mayo" at Jun 5, 96 10:58:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Troy Arie Cobb wrote: > > > Just a quick question... > > anyone done/is working on a Samba FS? > > I'd love to be able to mount as local > > a drive on my NT machine (NFS is, of course, > > an option but who wants to pay for the > > NFS server for NT? blech). [ ... ] > What I want is the opposite - I want to be able to "mount" (as a > filesystem) a LanMan share from another machine, NT for example. I'd love > to be able to mount -t smd nt_machine:/bigdisk/share /mnt !!! I think it > would be > great to have an NFS client-like samba program, instead of smbclient > (ftp-like). I guess I mean compliment smbclient actually... > > Overall, the samba suite is superb! Unfortunately, I don't have the > skills or the time to write an NFS-like client for samba.. but it would > be super handy!! Not to mention a great way to unwittingly disable user-level security for SMB servers using a FreeBSD machine as the hacking tool. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 13:16:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02564 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02556 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA17368; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:13:50 -0700 (PDT) To: "Kaleb S. KEITHLEY" cc: Michael Smith , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 10:16:25 EST." <199606061416.KAA11572@exalt.x.org> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:13:50 -0700 Message-ID: <17366.834092030@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You know, I don't find this sort of crap to be very helpful. Good > thing I'm not paying for it. > > I would have been really unhappy if I had run sysinstall and it had > newfs'd my disk. REALLY unhappy. OK, perhaps then it's time for clarification since you clearly would prefer to be treated in a more official manner: "System installations or upgrades using anything but the sysinstall tool are entirely unsupported and should be undertaken ONLY at the user's own risk. No technical support or other assistance can be rendered to those who install their systems in any other fashion. FreeBSD, Inc. thanks its customers for their cooperation in this regard. " There, that's the sort of response you'd get if you were paying for it. Since you're not, I think being told essentially the same thing in a less politically correct fashion ("Hey, BOZO, you want to shoot your feet off don't come f**king crying to us, OK?" :-) is not entirely unexpected. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 13:27:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03324 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03317 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA17444; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:25:45 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: kaleb@x.org (Kaleb S. KEITHLEY), hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 00:42:54 +0930." <199606061512.AAA17592@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:25:45 -0700 Message-ID: <17442.834092745@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It sounds like what you found is a legitimate bogon for the 'upgrade' > case if sysinstall doesn't handle it properly. Jordan? That's not the impression I got - it looks more like Kaleb simply trying to do this by hand and lost. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 13:28:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03487 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail0.spidernet.net (nautilus.spidernet.net [194.154.128.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03482 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ranko.spidernet.net by mail0.spidernet.net (ElectricMail-MESSAGE-2.0-GAMMA) id XAA25319; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:27:47 +0300 Message-Id: <199606062027.XAA25319@mail0.spidernet.net> X-Sender: ranko_fbsd@nautilus.spidernet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:26:54 -0100 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: Zivojnovic Ranko Subject: Traffic volume accounting on iijppp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I was wondering if there is simple way of implementing taffic volume accounting (input/output). I'm having some heavy loader on my net, but, without this option, I can't figure out who is it. If anybody has hacked into it, I'll appreciate it very much! -- Zivojnovic Ranko, System Engineer ranko@spidernet.net SpiderNet Services Ltd., Tel: +357 2 459-359 Nicosia, Cyprus FAX: +357 2 459-470 ______________________________________________________________ SpiderNet Services Ltd. 1 Iasonos Street Nicosia Cyprus ______________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 14:21:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08155 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08150 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA18156; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:19:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Morgan Davis cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 10:44:05 PDT." <199606061744.KAA03500@io.cts.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:19:25 -0700 Message-ID: <18154.834095965@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > etc.) which really bites. Can we expect stable to become stable > again some time in the near future? It's stable again now. This was a temporary and unfortunate anomaly in the lifecycle of -stable and you can rest assured that no great sets of changes will be going into -stable from now on. This was a one-time event. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 14:24:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08508 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08496 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA18184; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:22:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: Morgan Davis , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 12:23:53 MDT." <199606061823.MAA26192@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:22:52 -0700 Message-ID: <18182.834096172@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (You may want to consider subscribing to the stable mailing list if you > run stable). Not even consider - DO.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 14:40:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10277 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10272 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA01917; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:34:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606062134.OAA01917@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: New nit in 2.2-960501-SNAP To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:34:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: kaleb@x.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606061512.AAA17592@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jun 7, 96 00:42:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It sounds like what you found is a legitimate bogon for the 'upgrade' > case if sysinstall doesn't handle it properly. Jordan? I find it unlikely that someone would "upgrade" across locales... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 14:42:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10456 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from novell.com (sjf-ums.sjf.novell.com [130.57.10.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10444 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-SJF-Message_Server by fromGW with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:39:40 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:49:17 -0700 From: DARREND@novell.com (Darren Davis) To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, terry@lambert.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? - Reply Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Terry Lambert 6/ 6 12:02pm >>> You want wierd: I want a logical numeric name space for files so that the number is hooked to function and invariant under renaming. This would let me rename /etc/passwd to a Spanish or Japanese name (for instance) and still let /bin/login and everything that references the file by number chain continue to function normally. Then I want name catalogs for every language. Now *that's* wierd. 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. >>> Gee, sounds like multiple name spaces to me. Now where have I heard that one? {:-) Darren From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 15:19:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13497 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13489 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA02008; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:13:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606062213.PAA02008@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? - Reply To: DARREND@novell.com (Darren Davis) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:13:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Darren Davis" at Jun 6, 96 02:49:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Gee, sounds like multiple name spaces to me. Now where have I heard that > one? {:-) It's tiered multiple name spaces. This is very different from what Novell let me do with the attributed FS for the NWU product on UnixWare, if that's where you think you heard it. 8-). It's also different from the Native NetWare FS code, since in a Native NetWare volume, file names are file attributes, like permissions... this is kind of antithetical to the UNIX model, even though it (sorta) supports multiple names for a file. What I'm talking about is localization enabling: localization to a single locale. Jay Eckstrom's group (the advanced file system design group in the Novell Server Products Division) were more interested in having multiple locales simultaneously... though never interested enough to add Unicode support, it seems. 8-). It's a different problem: Jay's problem is one of dealing with multiple client machine "code pages". It's a DOS-centric problem, and it's a problem primarily because of memory restrictions on Legacy DOS clients not permitting the page translation to occur on the clients (gotta keep those 640k people happy, don't ya know!). I remember when Jay started talking about "distributed replicated block stores" -- what Drew called "block smearing"... I was the one who sent them the ZEBRA papers, showing that what they wanted had been implemented, with so-so results, more than two years before. I think everyone is (incorrectly) trying to solve the multinationalization problem in the context of the client. This seems (to me) to be the wrong thing to do. It's kind of silly to translate characters from the server into an English name *on the server* to help those hapless code page 435 clients, instead of making the client deal with Unicode, and implementing the round-tripping there. It doesn't matter if the name is unprintable because the round trip character set is munged through a code page, or through an ISO 8859-1 font, or through some other round-trip-standard. You aren't going to be reading Japanese documents with English names, typically, in any case. If you can't support the name display, you can't support the content display. 8-). "Well known files and directories" should be referenced by ID instead of name by "Well known file and directory referencing programs". Pretty simple idea. It's the rare "Tamil" to "Cantonese" translator who will be translating in the context of a single round trip character set instead of doing the translation in the context of a multinationalized tool. Such tools are special case constructs, useful only to translators or linguistic scholars (even amatuer ones, like myself 8-)). The general case for localization is one machine and one locale, or one back-end-store (file system or file server) and Unicode. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 15:48:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA16424 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16419 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uRnqN-0004KQC; Thu, 6 Jun 96 15:47 PDT Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:47:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I hate Solaris ACL's!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Jake Hamby wrote: > Okay, I've got a big FFS partition I'm trying to share between > FreeBSD-current and Solaris/x86, which sounds like a recipe for trouble, > I know, but it seems to be working well (assuming you fsck thoroughly > when you switch to the other OS), except for one big problem, thanks to > Solaris 2.5's ACL implementation. Arghh! Never mind. Solaris doesn't really like the FFS partition after all. I was getting annoying mouse/screen freezes in OpenWindows, then kernel panics, and finally Solaris just munged the FDISK (God, ever since I bought Solaris, it's been nothing but FDISK corruptions..) on that drive and I'm back in FreeBSD now. I've decided that the <50MB of duplication I had planned to save by sharing a partition between the two OS's is not worth the heartache! In spite of the fact that it was an extremely clever idea, if I do say so myself.. :-) As for why I'm even bothering with Solaris when FreeBSD is obviously much faster and nicer: I want to run Java Workshop and the JDK on a "supported platform" that doesn't have Windows in the title. Also, I do SPARC/Solaris development and wanted an environment as similar as possible at home for testing purposes. Even still, it's almost not worth it. And since NetBSD's Solaris emulation on a SPARC is not that compatible, I'm having doubts that if I get it going in FreeBSD it'll even be worthwhile, but I'll try anyway. I'll keep everyone posted... ---Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 18:10:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA29840 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beta.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (beta.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29239 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by beta.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id DAA15044 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 03:06:45 +0200 From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199606070106.DAA15044@beta.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: named forgets how to resolve To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 03:06:44 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, on one of our servers I have a serious problem with the name server. (The machine is a Pentium/133 runnning 2.1-RELEASE from WC, serving NFS for a few PCs and WWW and as a router -- so, no big load) It has two ed-Interfaces. Name: server.dekanat-bio.ruhr-uni-bochum.de Addresses: 134.147.236.159, 134.147.133.33 After a few days it forgets how to resolve names. It can still reverse resolve addresses. The problem occured first after about 40 days uptime. But now, a week and a reboot later, it happened again. Noteably, the problems started always on Thursday, 2:00am o'clock (/etc/daily ?). foreach x ( messages* ) foreach? grep ns_req: / $x | head -3 foreach? end messages:Jun 6 02:00:31 server named[70]: ns_req: no address for root server messages:Jun 6 11:42:12 server named[70]: ns_req: no address for root server messages:Jun 6 12:34:02 server named[70]: ns_req: no address for root server messages.0:May 30 02:00:32 server named[70]: ns_req: no address for root server messages.0:May 30 02:21:45 server named[70]: ns_req: no address for root server messages.0:May 30 04:23:34 server named[70]: ns_req: no address for root server I looked through the database at freefall.freebsd.org, and found a similar case (Subject: Named goes wobbly after a while), but I don't see that the solution (use current named.root, no syntax error in named.*, and refer to existing hosts in SOA only) applies here. I have to 'kill -TERM' and restart it to get it working again. (for the next week ? :-) A 'kill -HUP 70' gives with syslog at daemon.*: Jun 6 22:30:29 server named[70]: reloading nameserver Jun 6 22:30:29 server named[70]: Ready to answer queries. Jun 6 22:30:29 server named[70]: USAGE 834093029 833648478 CPU=4.3792u/2.28068s CHILDCPU=0.010436u/0.010706s Jun 6 22:30:29 server named[70]: NSTATS 834093029 833648478 A=408 NS=1 SOA=585 PTR=2172 MX=14 AXFR=2 ANY=1292 Jun 6 22:30:29 server named[70]: XSTATS 834093029 833648478 RQ=4474 RR=299 RIQ=0 RNXD=87 RFwdQ=225 RFwdR=225 RDupQ=0 RDupR=7 RFail=0 RFErr=0 RErr=0 RTCP=172 RA XFR=2 RLame=0 ROpts=0 SSysQ=68 SAns=4083 SFwdQ=225 SFwdR=225 SDupQ=7 SFail=0 SFErr=0 SErr=0 RNotNsQ=4013 SNaAns=3114 SNXD=63 Jun 6 22:32:03 server named[70]: ns_req: no address for root server Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: sysquery: no addrs found for NS (G.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: sysquery: no addrs found for NS (A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: sysquery: no addrs found for NS (H.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: sysquery: no addrs found for NS (B.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: sysquery: no addrs found for NS (C.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: sysquery: no addrs found for NS (D.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: sysquery: no addrs found for NS (E.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: sysquery: no addrs found for NS (I.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: sysquery: no addrs found for NS (F.ROOT-SERVERS.NET) Jun 6 22:34:48 server named[70]: ns_req: no address for root server [...] 8<--- /etc/named.boot: ------------------------------------------------------- ; named.boot directory /etc/named.d ; type domain source host/file backup file primary dekanat-bio.ruhr-uni-bochum.de /etc/named.d/named.hosts secondary 133.147.134.in-addr.arpa 134.147.32.40 /etc/named.d/named.rev primary 0.0.127.in-addr.arpa /etc/named.d/named.local cache . /etc/named.d/named.cache forwarders 134.147.222.4 134.147.32.40 8<--- /etc/named.d/named.cache: ---------------------------------------------- [...] ; file named.root ; ; last update: Nov 8, 1995 ; related version of root zone: 1995110800 ; ; ; formerly NS.INTERNIC.NET ; . 3600000 IN NS A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. 3600000 A 198.41.0.4 [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The server is subnetted 0xffffffe0 and gets its reverse address information from the computer center (134.147.32.40), which maintains the database for the 134.147.133.0-subnet. Any hints or requests to provide further information are welcome. Thanks, Robert -- Robert Eckardt ( Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Inst.f.Theor.Physik, NB6/169 ) Universitaetsstrasse 150, D-44780 Bochum, Germany ----X---8---- Telefon: +49 234 700-3709, Telefax: +49 234 7094-574 8 E-Mail: RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de --------8---- URL: http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/ >>> Fuer die einen ist es bloss ein Betriebssystem, <<< >>> fuer die anderen ist es der laengste Virus der Welt. .... Windows 95 <<< From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 19:01:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA07526 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [198.81.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA07507 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by covina.lightside.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uRqrb-0004KDC; Thu, 6 Jun 96 19:01 PDT Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:01:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jake Hamby To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Automatic configuration script (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Saw this on the NetBSD list, haven't had time to check it out. Does anyone else think this would be a great idea for FreeBSD? ---Jake ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:57:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Carsten Hammer To: current-users@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Automatic configuration script Hi, I have made a configuration script that makes a config file for kernelbuilding by looking at dmesg output (and ifconfig -a and machine) and would like to hear if it makes sense. You can download it from phyd2hammer.uni-bielefeld.de:/incoming/makeconfig but it supports only amiga by now. It should be rather easy to add support for other platforms. ciao Carsten From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 19:18:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA10084 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA09897; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id aa20784; 7 Jun 96 2:50 +0100 Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa11429; 7 Jun 96 2:50 +0100 Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.12) id CAA02710; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:42:44 GMT Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:42:44 GMT Message-Id: <199606070242.CAA02710@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: terry@lambert.org CC: dyson@freebsd.org, jehamby@lightside.com, terry@lambert.org, bde@zeta.org.au, dufault@hda, hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199606052046.NAA29627@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:46:20 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Jeffery Hsu is working on the VFS stuff right now, so I would suggest > > waiting until his stuff settles out (or at least track it), but alot > > of prelim work could start immediately. > > > > So, I guess what I am saying is that if someone will take the lead, I'll > > help!!! > > I'm not willing to take the LFS on, right now, but let me echo John's > sentiments: I'll help out in anything I can for you. I suspect that > there will be some UFS code (which is shared by FFS, MFS, and LFS) that > will need to be changed; I'm probably a good guy for that. Well, anyone who does take this on certainly won't be able to complain about lack of help! 8-) > If anyone was thinking about jumping in, if you can get a commit of > John's time like this, then this is probably the best chance you'll > get for a nice, compartmentalized kernel hack, where you don't have > to worry about related systems being killed by whatever changes you > want to make. Actually I was thinking about jumping in, but on portals, as I've just read a paper on it and thought it seemed quite interesting (I found it somewhere under http://www.noao.edu/~rstevens/, BTW). On the other hand, if there's going to be a "team assault" on LFS... 8-) -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland | http://freefall.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ james@jraynard.demon.co.uk | jraynard@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 20:55:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26488 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from enteract.com (root@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26473; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tqbf@localhost) by enteract.com (8.7.5/8.7.6) id WAA06848; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:55:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Thomas Ptacek Message-Id: <199606070355.WAA06848@enteract.com> Subject: ifconfig alias issues To: bugs@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:55:06 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: tqbf@enteract.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok. Same problem. We've got a machine with a couple hundred interface aliases on a single interface. Periodically, one or two specific aliases on it will break; the interface will no longer respond to packets addressed to that alias, and there will be extra host routes added towards the interface. Deleting the routes and the alias, then re-adding the alias, solves the problem. However, do this once or twice (and 2 or 3 always break at once), and all (every one of 'em) the aliases go away. We add the aliases from a script. Re-running the script and re-adding the aliases has twice now fixed the problem for weeks at a time. I've observed that this problem only occurs at or around boot-up time (I check immediately after reboots now). I've also noticed that this only seems to happen immediately after the route cache expire times get shorter. I'm wondering if route expirations could be causing the problem; that would explain (to me) why the system stabilizes completely after adding the aliases again (all the routes get re-added) and the problem goes away for a long time (because the route cache expire time only goes down once or twice, and always right after the system comes up). Any ideas? This is happening on a Pentium 133 with an SMC ISA Ethernet NIC and 64M RAM. MAXUSERS is currently 64, NMBCLUSTERS is 2048 (we're not running out of mbufs or anything tho.) rtmaxcache is 400, up from 200, and I'm trying it at 600, although this seems like a band-aid for the problem (if route expires really are the problem), since changes in the route cache expiration shouldn't (from what I can tell) kill all the interfaces. Gratzi. ---------------- Thomas Ptacek at EnterAct, L.L.C., Chicago, IL [tqbf@enteract.com] ---------------- main(){while(1)fork();} From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 21:59:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA04051 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04023 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA21422 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:53:09 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606070523.OAA21422@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: RS422/485 driver update To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:53:08 +0930 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk By popular request, I've added to the driver archive a schematic and PCB layout for a simple RS232/RS485 adapter that we use here. Given the cost of commercial units of similar functionality, the effort required to DIY is probably worth it. If anyone is seriously interested in quantities of 5 or more, I'll happily quote on manufacture. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 22:04:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA04865 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04858; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA21467; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:58:18 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606070528.OAA21467@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Interface problem To: davo@katy.apana.org.au (Dave Edwards) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:58:18 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606061421.XAA10602@katy.apana.org.au> from "Dave Edwards" at Jun 6, 96 11:51:38 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dave Edwards stands accused of saying: > > Is there some limit set on the number of slip/ppp/tun interfaces > available in 2.1-RELEASE ? Not AFAIK. > User ppp caused a problem at first with "device not configured" > sometimes and "can't find ifindex" at others. We got past that > one with some mods to the ppp code but yesterday, a cslip > connection failed rather strangely. Sliplogin worked ok and > configured the interface (sl8) but I could not get it to come > up. > > "ifconfig -au" did not show sl8 'ifconfig' uses a fixed-size buffer to obtain information from the kernel. With lots of interfaces, the buffer is too small. > We tried twice with the same result. The same person has had no > trouble up till now, and he's got on since. He's using ppp until > I can sort it out. Problem is we rarely get more than 12 > connections at a time so its hard to troubleshoot.. Dummy some on vtys. > Dave Edwards -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 22:24:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07866 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA07832; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606070524.WAA07832@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Michael Smith cc: davo@katy.apana.org.au (Dave Edwards), freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interface problem In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 14:58:18 +0930." <199606070528.OAA21467@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 22:24:25 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> "ifconfig -au" did not show sl8 > >'ifconfig' uses a fixed-size buffer to obtain information from the >kernel. With lots of interfaces, the buffer is too small. Doesn't it use sysctl to determine the necessary buffer size and malloc the space? I think it used to use a fixed buffer size. >-- >]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ >]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ >]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 22:32:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA09415 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA09352; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA21627; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:26:19 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606070556.PAA21627@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Interface problem To: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:26:19 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, davo@katy.apana.org.au, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606070524.WAA07832@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at Jun 6, 96 10:24:25 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Justin T. Gibbs stands accused of saying: > > >> "ifconfig -au" did not show sl8 > > > >'ifconfig' uses a fixed-size buffer to obtain information from the > >kernel. With lots of interfaces, the buffer is too small. > > Doesn't it use sysctl to determine the necessary buffer size and > malloc the space? I think it used to use a fixed buffer size. Under -current it probably does. AFAIR, these guys are on 2.1R or an oldish -stable. > Justin T. Gibbs -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 6 22:53:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA12509 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA12486 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id OAA09210; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:53:25 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:53:25 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed enhancement? In-Reply-To: <199606061802.LAA01468@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Terry, have you ever thought about going into teaching? Someone who > > is so adept at coming up with so many weird theoretical solutions on > > the fly should definitely be working in a University environment > > somewhere... ;-) > > That wasn't wierd -- that was a logical extension of the soft updates > work, just bringing it up a level of scope. I didn't really think > of it on the fly -- it took me a long time to come up with it. It's > just that the opportunity to talk about it presented itself. 8-). > > You want wierd: I want a logical numeric name space for files so that > the number is hooked to function and invariant under renaming. > This would let me rename /etc/passwd to a Spanish or Japanese name > (for instance) and still let /bin/login and everything that references > the file by number chain continue to function normally. Then I > want name catalogs for every language. > > Now *that's* wierd. 8-) 8-). That isn't wierd. That would be an excellent feature. -mike hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 01:41:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA00556 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA00544; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA24765; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:39:36 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: www@freebsd.org Subject: New "netscaped" FreeBSD web pages at http://www.freebsd.org/~mpcd Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 01:39:36 -0700 Message-ID: <24763.834136776@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk These are the proposed "netscape enhanced" pages for those browsers (and comlinks) capable of dealing with a fancier view of things. The text mode interface isn't going away, folks, so don't all you lynx people get yourselves into a knot. This is just another way of looking at the FreeBSD home page for those users who go in for that sort of thing, and it'll either auto-select by browser or be chained off of http://www.freebsd.org through a "netscape enhanced!" button or something. We haven't worked that out yet. Pages courtesy of Visual Internet Publishing, who will of course get some free advertising out of this deal. :-) Feedback can and should be sent to Duffy Penski . Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 02:54:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA03620 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA03614 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schubert.promo.de by casparc.ppp.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uRyEb-000HzhC; Fri, 7 Jun 96 11:53 MET DST Received: from quick.promo.de (quick.Promo.DE [194.45.188.67]) by schubert.promo.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA10770; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:51:14 +0200 Message-ID: Date: 7 Jun 1996 11:50:39 +0200 From: "Stefan Bethke" Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed en To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 3.0.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You want wierd: I want a logical numeric name space for files so that > the number is hooked to function and invariant under renaming. > This would let me rename /etc/passwd to a Spanish or Japanese name > (for instance) and still let /bin/login and everything that references > the file by number chain continue to function normally. Then I > want name catalogs for every language. > > Now *that's* wierd. 8-) 8-). This somewhat the same the Mac HFS works. While it doesn't provide = concurrent different name spaces, each file on a HFS volume has a distict = ID, which is never reused. This way, a user can rename and move files on = the same volume anyway s/he likes; any program referencing a file (i. e. = a placed image in a DTP application) will find the file regardless. Mac = "aliases" (which essentially serve the same purpose as symlinks) also = work this way. The Mac uses only two functional ids: 2 always is the volume root = directory, and 1 (I think) is the active "System Folder". Having a comparable mechanism in a FreeBSD file system would allow Mac = file servers (such as the one included in the netatalk package) to serve = the files correctly; currently, the file server simulates the ids, so = after unmounting and remounting the server volume, file referenced by id = won't be found anymore. So what are file names good for? Currently, the serve two purposes: to = uniquely identify the file for a program that needs to access that file, = and for a user to tell files apart. For any program, any type of = reference (like a number) will work; for a user, an alphanumeric, = symbolic name best identifies a particular file. However, why shouldn't I = be able to call /etc/passwd "Local User+Password Database", because I can = remember better for what the file is good? Of course, working in a shell, = I still would prefer "passwd". Seperating references for programs and humans also would allow something = I wanted to have for quite some time: consider a typical daemon package, = consisting of some binaries, some configuration files and some data files = that are worked upon: currenty, one has to decide whether to integrate = that into the filesystem standard (etc/, libexec/ /var/...), or to create = a seperate directory for each package (/usr/local/package). Both views = are equally useful: sometimes, I'd like to work on several configuration = files for different, interrelated packages; sometimes, I'm considered = what files at all are belonging to a certain package at all. So the solution would be to represent the files in a net rather than in a = tree, allowing for several views on the filesystem. Again, working in a = shell, this might be confusing and complicated, so I'd rather stick with = the current model. And, yes, I could simulate this with gobs of symlinks; = but that awkward. Stefan Bethke -- Promo Datentechnik | Tel. +49-40-431360-0 + Systemberatung GmbH | Fax. +49-40-431360-60 Waterloohain 6-8 | e-mail: stefan@Promo.DE D-22769 Hamburg | http://www.Promo.DE/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 04:31:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA07512 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DATAPLEX.NET (SHARK.DATAPLEX.NET [199.183.109.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07507 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 199.183.109.242 by DATAPLEX.NET with SMTP (MailShare 1.0fc5); Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:31:25 -0600 Message-ID: Date: 7 Jun 1996 06:31:09 -0500 From: "Richard Wackerbarth" Subject: Re(2): The demise of -stable To: "FreeBSD Hackers" , "Jordan" , "p.richards@elsevier.co.uk" , "stable@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: Mail*Link PT/Internet 1.6.0 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards writes: > The sort of bug fixes that would be OK would be the fixes Justin has made to > the adaptec driver, the sort of thing I wouldn't like to allow would be > "choice bits" since that's not what people tracking -stable are really > looking for, they want the bugs in the functionality they have fixed not > new stuff, they'll wait until the next full release for that, their main > concern is *stability*. "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes in reference to submitters for the "new" stable: > This should be handled by one or at most two people who _really want_ > -stable to live and are willing to slowly dribble patches into it. > We've already been "outsourcing" the job of producing CTM deltas for > -stable to Richard Wackerbarth, why not make all of -stable that way? I can go for that. Right now, the worst thing about -current is that it _usually_ is unstable. I have a friend who, like myself, has been in computers since the "dark ages" of 029 keypunches. His attitude is to ALWAYS wait 6 months for a new release to get really shaken out before he even considers installing it. That attitude has merits. It was my hope that FreeBSD would offer a viable alternative to BSDI. "Stable" seemed to be a big step in that direction. I would hate to see the concept dropped rather than refined. As I see it, the organization needs 3 trees at all times. 1) The latest "bleeding edge" development hack. 2) The current release-in-progress. 3) The tried-and-true production system. As a new system is being released the second time, it would become the likely replacement for 3). Both 2) and 3) require a lot more release engineering disipline than the -current folks seem to display. Since I am already heavily into supporting the existence of -stable, I'll step up to offer a bit more in the way of resources to host it if necessary. Unlike Jordan, I would encourage, but not require, developers to contribute additions such as new device drivers. Such additions would extend the viable life of the release, hopefully until an ISP would be willing to run on the next release. At that point, we would leap forward and the cycle would start over again. However, major changes should not be welcome in this tree. It ought to be viewed more as support for existing users rather than a "new features" system. Who knows, I might even advocate that "we" (stable hands) issue our own CD's. I hope it doewsn't come to that. -- Richard Wackerbarth rkw@dataplex.net -- ...computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and weigh only 1/2 tons. -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 04:34:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA07703 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07666 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18986; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:38:48 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id OAA07316; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:38:10 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199606071138.OAA07316@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Need help with DDB (IPfilter 3.0.4, logging panices FreeBSD) To: darrenr@cyber.com.au Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:38:09 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: ipfilter@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello Darren and people, so, even after a total replacement of underlying hardware (only hard disk is the same), and upgrade to ipfilter 3.0.4, I'm still having problems on our FreeBSD firewall gateway. As soon as I discovered that disaster is here, I made a kernel with debugging symbols and DDB in it, rebooted and waited. Caught it. Omitting the exact details (hex symbol tables, etc., anyway, this kernel is here, still panicing from time to time, esp. under network load on SLIP interfaces; I'll send the details as soon as you'll ask) of several panics, DDB's "trace" command constantly shows that kernel page fault occurs in bcopy(), called from near line 616 of fil.c -- the function is fr_check(). That's near the call to a logging routine, but I couldn't find any bcopy() call in nearest few lines. IPFILTER_LOG is defined. Filter is compiled into the kernel. My attempts to use gdb -k on the dumped corefiles failed: $ gdb -k "symbol-file ddbkernel" -- Ok "exec-file kernel.0" -- Ok "core-file vmcore.0" -- gdb fails to extract some nessesary info(?) and doesn't show anything :( I'm not too familiar with gdb :( The kernel has "options DDB", no compiler optimization, config(8) had '-g' switch (note: linkage of the kernel failed with this switch combo; ld didn't find _memcmp symbol, why? I added libc.a to the list of libraries, after libkernel.a; linkage succeeded, "debug" kernel works as planned ;) this means it's Ok until a panic :)) Kernel sources are -stable as of March 20 (still). (How can I sup somethin new and big if my router falls down?! Even my mail goes through it, anyway). What makes me wonder is the fact that DDB tells me: bcopy has 4 (four) args! first being 0x80smth, another three -- some addresses. Gmm... Any help/comments/suggestions are strongly appreciated. Thanks! P.S. If the damn thing will panic again soon, I'll write down the exact DDB output and an appropriate fragment of `nm ddbkernel` and send it to you. Please take my apologies if the message will be a bit longish. ;) -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 04:51:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA08745 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA08725; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA02059; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:51:08 -0700 (PDT) To: "Richard Wackerbarth" cc: "FreeBSD Hackers" , "p.richards@elsevier.co.uk" , "stable@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Re(2): The demise of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "07 Jun 1996 06:31:09 CDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:51:08 -0700 Message-ID: <2056.834148268@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unlike Jordan, I would encourage, but not require, developers to contribute > additions such as new device drivers. Such additions would extend the viable Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves - there are a lot of issues to deal with before the question of branch commit philosophy even raises its head. We're also not bearing in mind that _anything_ which involves the CVS tree is going to involve the repository meister, and AFAIK nobody has gotten his vote on all of this yet. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 04:56:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA09029 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09024; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uS091-000QZwC; Fri, 7 Jun 96 13:55 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA00708; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:15:39 +0200 Message-Id: <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: The -stable problem: my view To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:15:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry for the cross-posting, but I think we need to involve people in all three groups, since -current and -hackers will both be involved when -stable goes away. I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, even though some good arguments have been put forward for its retention. To sum up my viewpoint, I see two problems with the present setup. For the most part, these aren't original ideas, but so much mail has gone by on the subject that I think it's a good idea to summarize: 1. -current and -stable diverge too much. This means that -stable really isn't, it's -dusty, and the occasions on which -current updates get folded into -stable are fiascos like we've experienced in the last week. That wasn't the intention. 2. -current goes through periods of greater and less stability. It's not practical for somebody who wants to run a stable system to track -current. On the other hand, the more stable periods of -current work very well. The real problem, as I see it, is finding a compromise between these two problems. Lots of people want a stable version of FreeBSD, but they also want bugs fixed. Many -stable users also want new features, such as support for new hardware. The -stable branch has diverged too far. What we need are shorter branches: say, we start a -stable branch at a point on the -current branch where things are relatively stable. Then we update it with bug fixes only for a relatively short period (say 4 to 8 weeks). *Then we ditch it and start again at a new point on the -current tree*. These branches could be called things like 2.2.1-stable, 2.2.2-stable, etc. Like this, we could have our relative stability while keeping the -stable branches more up to date. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Jordan's perspective, this is the main problem. From my personal perspective, it's completely irrelevant. I have another *big* problem: I've been trying to rebuild -stable for 5 days now, and I'm still not much closer to success than I was at the beginning. Yesterday I threw away everything I had and started again with a new checkout and a new make world. It's still barfing in an xterm behind this one as I write. My problem is simple: the build procedure is screwed up. It makes the assumption that I really want to run the version I'm building on the machine I'm building it on. It confuses the build environment with the execution environment. It installs components of the new system in the execution environment before the build is finished. As a result, if anything goes wrong, you end up with a system in an indeterminate state. This is a particular nuisance if header files have changed, and I think this is the biggest problem so far. There's no need for this. I've already modified my build environment to only use the header files in the /usr/src hierarchy, and it's easy enough to ensure that the executables and libraries also only come from the build environment. In case you're interested in the header files, you do ln -s /usr/src/sys/i386/include /usr/src/include/machine and in the Makefiles, you add CFLAGS += -nostdinc -I/usr/src/include -I/sys -I/sys/sys -I/sys/i386/include Possibly I've missed some header files in this, but that's just a matter of including them. Similar considerations would apply to paths for libraries and executables, but I haven't got that far yet. In addition, the build process depends far too much on removing components and rebuilding them. This makes builds take forever. For example, to rebuild a kernel, you first remove all the kernel objects. Why? BSD/OS has an almost identical build procedure, but it doesn't expect you to remove what you have. You do have to perform a make depend, of course, but even that can be automated. If somebody can point me to an example of where the dependency rules don't work, I'd be interested to see it. One possible argument is: what do you do if the definitions in the Makefile change? This can require files to be recompiled. Sure, if the IDENT definition in the Makefile changes, you can expect to have to recompile a whole lot of stuff, but there are ways to ensure that that isn't necessary. The most obvious, if not the most elegant, is to make all objects depend on the Makefile, and not to change the Makefile if nothing in the Makefile changes. A somewhat more sophisticated method would be to put the definitions in a file which is included by the Makefile, and depend only on that. Does anybody have any dependencies that couldn't be solved by this kind of method? So now you'll come and say, "OK, do it". I'm not just bitching: I am prepared to revise the whole build procedure. I think it would not take much longer than I've spent trying to build the current version. What do you people think? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 05:12:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA10497 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spooky.rwwa.com (rwwa.com [198.115.177.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA10485 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.rwwa.com (localhost.rwwa.com [127.0.0.1]) by spooky.rwwa.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA03588 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:15:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199606071215.IAA03588@spooky.rwwa.com> X-Authentication-Warning: spooky.rwwa.com: Host localhost.rwwa.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Lyx port anyone? / IBM wireless lan? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 11:50:41 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 08:15:11 -0400 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk One problem is that the current Xforms releases are built for FBSD 2.2, not 2.1R. This causes all kinds of problems. Anyone here know how to convince the xforms developers to do a 2.1 build? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 592 8935, Net: witr@rwwa.COM From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 05:29:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA11388 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from timbuk.cray.com (root@timbuk.cray.com [128.162.19.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA11373 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crmunich0 (gwk@crmunich0.cray.com [134.14.1.1]) by timbuk.cray.com (8.7.5/CRI-gate-8-2.11) with SMTP id HAA13357 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:29:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: by crmunich0 id AA23488; 4.1/CRI-5.6a; Fri, 7 Jun 96 14:29:43 +0200 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 14:29:43 +0200 From: gwk@crmunich0.cray.com (Georg-Wilhelm Koltermann) Message-Id: <9606071229.AA23488@crmunich0> To: steve@gordian.com Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, steve@gordian.com In-Reply-To: <199606060544.WAA04867@delphi.gordian.com> (message from Steve Khoo on Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:01 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: NFS problem: Irix 5.2 server, 2.2-960501-SNAP client Reply-To: gwk@cray.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > From: Steve Khoo > Subject: NFS problem: Irix 5.2 server, 2.2-960501-SNAP client > To: freebsd-current-digest@FreeBSD.ORG > Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:48:31 -0700 (PDT) > > I have an interesting nfs problem... > > The server is running irix 5.2 and the client is running 2.2-960501-SNAP. > The mount exit without any error, but when I do df, ls or pwd I get > the following: > > # df > Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on > /dev/sd0a 49231 14290 31003 32% / > /dev/sd0s1f 1388387 446552 830765 35% /usr > /dev/sd0s1e 49231 797 44496 2% /var > procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc > hermes:/n/hermes 1468230 1316047 152183 90% /n/hermes > hermes:/n/hermes2 997025 867008 130016 87% /n/hermes2 > delphi:/n/delphi 639048 639048 0 100% /n/delphi > delphi:/n/delphi2 639048 639048 0 100% /n/delphi2 > # cd /n/delphi > # ls > ls: .: Not a directory > # pwd > pwd: Not a directory > # > > The last two filesystems listed in df are the problem filesystems. > > The funny thing is, I can nfs mount another SGI(hermes) also running > irix 5.2 without any problems. The server with problems(delphi) is a > Challenge S server and (hermes) is Indigo. The only difference I can > think of is, (hermes) was upgraded from irix 4.05 and the filesystem > was created in irix 4.05. All filesystems on (delphi) was created in > irix 5.2. > > Any ideas? > Just a thought: Did you try mounting with -o -P? Some NFS servers like to have that. Georg-W. Koltermann, gwk@cray.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 05:39:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA11816 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA11810; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA19708; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606071239.FAA19708@precipice.shockwave.com> To: security@freebsd.org cc: committer@freebsd.org, core@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD's /var/mail permissions Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 05:39:22 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk General problem: Currently, /var/mail is set 0755 and mail.local is setuid root. Any program which needs to *create* a new file in /var/mail must be setuid root. Any program which wishes to manipulate a user mail file needs no special permissions (other than user permissions). I consider this a generic bug, even though there's a specific reason motivating me to change it. Specific problem: Previous versions of the popper port created a temporary file ".pop.username" in /var/mail as root, and then chowned the file over to the user. This was changed to avoid a potential race condition. The file creation is now done at user level. When I discussed this with the author of popper, he was adamant that /var/mail should be 1755 (ala 4.3BSD) or 775 with a group of mail (ala USG...barf). If popper were the only problem, I'd consider chosing a different directory for this temporary file to be created, such as /var/tmp. This leads to a new set of problems and I consider it less secure than maintaining the file in /var/mail as we have always done. Proposed solution: I'm considering creating group "mail" and going the setgid route, so that a program which creates files in /var/mail can be simply setgid mail. This is a well understood mail directory protection mechanism and employs the "principle of least privilege." Impact: Programs that expect the current semantics will still work just fine (we wouldn't need to change elm or mail.local). All we are doing is allowing setgid mail delivery programs create access to /var/mail. Comments? I hate changing permissions on such a vital hunk of FreeBSD without discussion. Please TRIM THE CC LINE and keep all discussion in security@freebsd.org as opposed to the other lists. Paul From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 06:29:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA14513 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA14470; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA15554; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:29:35 -0700 (PDT) To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 12:15:38 +0200." <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 06:29:35 -0700 Message-ID: <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the documentation. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 08:10:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21363 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.cybernet.com (gateway.cybernet.com [192.245.33.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA21357 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spiffy.cybernet.com (spiffy.cybernet.com [192.245.33.55]) by gateway.cybernet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA17645; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:14:50 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.4-prerelease [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <26877.834081411@palmer.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 11:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Cybernet Systems Corporation From: (Mark J. Taylor) To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Samba, etc. Mark Mayo Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 22:16:51 "Gary Palmer" wrote: >>Troy Arie Cobb wrote in message ID >: >> On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Mark Mayo wrote: >> As an aside, I could certainly avoid all this if there was a freely available >> NFS server for NT. I did a semi-extensive surf for one but came up nil. > >My memory dredges up the name `soss' for some reason. I THINK there is >an NT version. > >Gary >-- >Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member >FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info We've had some problems with SOSS (Son of Stans' Server) for NT- it tends to return from a select() call before the timeout with no descriptors set. We gave up on it a while ago (8 months). Maybe it's been improved since then. The DOS version works fine, if you don't have directory names with periods in them. That was a fairly simple source-code hack to fix that. Don't ask me where to get them- we don't use them anymore. I do have a copy of the DOS code, but it is quite different than the NT code. Oh yeah- we never did figure out how to start the NT version as a service. We were only able to figure out how to get it to start automatically by putting it in a user's startup folder. -Mark Taylor mtaylor@cybernet.com of Stans' Server) for NT- it tends to return from a select() call before the timeout with no descriptors set. We gave up on it a while ago (8 months). Maybe it's been improved since then. The DOS version works fine, if you don't have directory names with periods in them. That was a fairly simple source-code hack to fix that. Don't ask me where to get them- we don't use them anymore. I do have a copy of the DOS code, but it is quite different than the NT code. Oh yeah- we never did figure out how to start the NT version as a service. We were only able to figure out how to get it to start automatically by putting it in a user's startup folder. -Mark Taylor mtaylor@cybernet.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 08:11:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21441 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from distortion.eng.umd.edu (distortion.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA21436 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.208]) by distortion.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25132; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05598; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:11:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:11:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: Michael Smith cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RS422/485 driver update In-Reply-To: <199606070523.OAA21422@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > > By popular request, I've added to the driver archive a schematic and PCB > layout for a simple RS232/RS485 adapter that we use here. > > Given the cost of commercial units of similar functionality, the effort > required to DIY is probably worth it. If anyone is seriously interested > in quantities of 5 or more, I'll happily quote on manufacture. Michael, the .sch file seems to be missing from the tar file, could you put it up? This seems really interesting for me, tho I cna't tell right now hwo long it will take me to get to a keen application. Most modern theatres (at least in the US) use an RS485 interface, in conjuntion with an incredibly simple protocol and hardware, to control lighting. The consoles that do this are really expensive, and it seems like a real good application for me to fiddle with. Real time for such folks isn't the same real-time as it is for you and me, at least in my talks with local theatre folk seem to indicate. Cheap is important! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 08:15:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21905 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ecsl.cs.sunysb.edu (sequoia.cs.sunysb.edu [130.245.14.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA21891 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from multi@localhost) by ecsl.cs.sunysb.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA20410 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:14:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:14:48 -0400 From: Chitra Venkatramani Message-Id: <199606071514.LAA20410@ecsl.cs.sunysb.edu> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Intel EtherExpress Pro/100B Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is this card supported in FreeBSD 2.1.0 ? If not, can I somehow incorporate the drivers from the current release into the FreeBSD 2.1.0 ? thanks for any information.... -Chitra From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 08:29:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23042 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA23028; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA29241; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:29:32 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:29:32 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, > > Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. > Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the > documentation. I disagree that it's somehow so awful as to be un-doable, and I've been doing a *ton* of work in both -stable and -current. However, it's a *LOT* of work. However, I don't think this has anything to do with CVS, but has to do with the diverging of the trees. P3 may make it easier to do as far as resources, but the actual work of 'merging' in changes to both won't be any easier. Building the patches is the hard work IMHO, and this can't be automated in any real fashion in a safe manner for something like -stable by it's very nature, as John Polstra already pointed out. *Every* single patch I've brought into stable I eye-ball reviewed before I committed them (fat lot of good it did me for all those stupid syntax errors and such), but at least I knew what the functionality was supposed to do. This kind of work is necessary for -stable to exist, and apparently at least Jordan and David are completely unwillingly to do this. Do any of the developers (and Peter the CVS-meister) have anything to say? Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 09:41:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00343 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00333; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.mcs.com (root@Venus.mcs.com [192.160.127.92]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03313; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:41:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: by venus.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Fri, 7 Jun 96 10:42 CDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:42:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Jun 7, 96 12:15:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sorry for the cross-posting, but I think we need to involve people in > all three groups, since -current and -hackers will both be involved > when -stable goes away. > > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, > even though some good arguments have been put forward for its > retention. Uh, yuck. If STABLE goes away, and I cannot get a known-to-build-and-run version at a given point in time, FreeBSD goes away here. Why? Because I *cannot possibly* track -current given the state of broken code we sometimes end up with (I have tried!) and that means keeping *at least* two machines and doing continual regression tests on the -current tree. I don't have a full-time engineer at present to devote to this, nor can I afford the single mistake that destroys our environment. I can put someone on this with a 4-10 hour per week commitment, but that's about it. Somehow, the -STABLE intent must remain. I don't care *how* it is accomplished, but it has to be accomplished. An example of the problems is the difficulty in running nntplink on -STABLE; sometime a couple of months ago something in the select() call broke, has not been fixed, and nntplink won't run any longer (and yes, we have been asking infrequently and did report this when it happened). This means that one particular machine that could *really* use the recent VM fixes can't have them, because if I load that kernel on our main news system it stops talking to anyone. Not good. > 1. -current and -stable diverge too much. This means that -stable > really isn't, it's -dusty, and the occasions on which -current > updates get folded into -stable are fiascos like we've experienced > in the last week. That wasn't the intention. Yes. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't the answer either. > 2. -current goes through periods of greater and less stability. It's > not practical for somebody who wants to run a stable system to > track -current. On the other hand, the more stable periods of > -current work very well. Correct as well. > What we need are shorter branches: say, we start a -stable branch at a > point on the -current branch where things are relatively stable. Then > we update it with bug fixes only for a relatively short period (say 4 > to 8 weeks). *Then we ditch it and start again at a new point on the > -current tree*. These branches could be called things like > 2.2.1-stable, 2.2.2-stable, etc. Like this, we could have our > relative stability while keeping the -stable branches more up to date. This will work if it is *clearly* documented when and if these things happen, and what you can (and cannot) keep at a given time (ie: if I must reload all the shared libraries then that effectively requires that I dump the machine and reload; this is a MAJOR problem if you're trying to track incremental improvements). .... > is included by the Makefile, and depend only on that. Does anybody > have any dependencies that couldn't be solved by this kind of method? ... > So now you'll come and say, "OK, do it". I'm not just bitching: I am > prepared to revise the whole build procedure. I think it would not > take much longer than I've spent trying to build the current version. > What do you people think? > > Greg I think it would be a *great* idea. A full build on a lightly-loaded P166 now requires nearly three hours, and that's too long for a SUP which only changes two files! -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1] | 21 Chicagoland POPs, ISDN, 28.8, much more Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ ISDN - Get it here TODAY! | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 10:02:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01947 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA01938; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA29627; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:02:39 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:02:39 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606071702.LAA29627@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Build times (was Re: The -stable problem: my view) In-Reply-To: References: <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A full build on a lightly-loaded P166 now requires nearly three hours, > and that's too long for a SUP which only changes two files! If you are familiar with the build process, then you *don't* have to run a 'make world' everytime. Someone as familiar with system builds should be able to figure out the effects of changed files, but unfortunately this means you need to baby-sit the SUP update files to determine what changed instead of simplying firing off a make world after every update. I *never* run a make world, and rarely even run a global make, but when things do change I will do the necessary individual steps in a make world to bring my system back into 'make world' status. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 11:09:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06903 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA06898; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA03559; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:03:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606071803.LAA03559@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: New "netscaped" FreeBSD web pages at http://www.freebsd.org/~mpcd To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:03:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, www@freebsd.org, mpcd@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <24763.834136776@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 7, 96 01:39:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > These are the proposed "netscape enhanced" pages for those browsers > (and comlinks) capable of dealing with a fancier view of things. The > text mode interface isn't going away, folks, so don't all you lynx > people get yourselves into a knot. This is just another way of > looking at the FreeBSD home page for those users who go in for that > sort of thing, and it'll either auto-select by browser or be chained > off of http://www.freebsd.org through a "netscape enhanced!" button or > something. We haven't worked that out yet. > > Pages courtesy of Visual Internet Publishing, who will of course get > some free advertising out of this deal. :-) > > Feedback can and should be sent to Duffy Penski . These pages have a *much* higher production value than the onces which are "Lynx-friendly"! Does Apache support server-side scripting? It seems that you could do automatic browser capability detection, and generate pages on the basis of capability from a common source/database. At worst, there should be a high/low/no graphics page as the initial intercept, if browser capability based redirects can't work (ie: if there is no server-side scripting). These things need to be the default for most people connecting to the site! Good job on the pages! (what's the text input field with no buttons or anything associated with it???). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 11:28:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08352 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08311; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA03612; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:22:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606071822.LAA03612@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:22:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 7, 96 06:29:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, > > Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. > Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the > documentation. The problem with CVS is access protocol. I've suggested (many times) that the way to resolve this is to establish reader/writer locks and a shell script interface for use by committers or other programs, and to require a successful build as part of the commit protocol: Checkout/merge: begin cvs lock read [ ... checkout ... ] cvs unlock end Checkin: begin cvs lock write [ ... checkout/merge ... ] [ ... successful build (including any necessary changes) ... ] [ ... checking ... ] cvs unlock end Locking protocol (locks are per repository, not global): cvs lock read <-- multiple read locks may be held; their effect is to allow other read locks and prevent any write locks. cvs lock write <--- one write lock can be held; there must be no read locks, or the write lock will fail. Yes, this serializes writes to a given repository. Reads will *always* return a *buildable* source tree. Tree copy for SUP/CTM delta building must be done with a read lock asserted. The global log message will give the character of a change spanning multiple files. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 11:48:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09302 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix.stylo.it (unix.stylo.it [193.76.98.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09297 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from servernt.stylo.it (servernt.stylo.it [193.76.98.4]) by unix.stylo.it (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA00841 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:48:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by servernt.stylo.it with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB54B2.675AB3D0@servernt.stylo.it>; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:46:29 +0200 Message-ID: From: Angelo Turetta To: "'freebsd-hackers'" Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:48:41 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB54B2.675C3A70" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB54B2.675C3A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I'm not really hacking the system, but I let you know my opinion, for what >it's worth. > >Greg Lehey writes: >>1. -current and -stable diverge too much. This means that -stable >> really isn't, it's -dusty, and the occasions on which -current >> updates get folded into -stable are fiascos like we've experienced >> in the last week. That wasn't the intention. >> >>2. -current goes through periods of greater and less stability. It's >> not practical for somebody who wants to run a stable system to >> track -current. On the other hand, the more stable periods of >> -current work very well. > >Wouldn't this be solved by burning more -SNAP releases ? >I've thought many times about upgrading my system to -stable, but instead i >jumped directly on 960501-SNAP, because it provides more features I really >needed (BSDI 2.0 binaries, or 3C590 support, just to make some example) >I'd like very much to see a -SNAP every month or so (let's say, upon every >'more stable periods of -current'), and a smart way to apply a set of >bug-fixes, should they be needed before the next -SNAP or -RELEASE (read: >security holes, kernel code locking the system etc...) > >Yes, I understand the work needed to package a SNAP is not small, but it >would provide a good service to those, like me, who cannot simply rebuild >everything every day. > >Hope this helps. >Angelo > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > Angelo Turetta mailto:aturetta@stylo.it > Stylo Multimedia - Bologna - Italy http://www.stylo.it/ > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB54B2.675C3A70-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 12:05:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11442 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11393; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA25368; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:05:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" cc: Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Karl Denninger, MCSNet wrote: > If STABLE goes away, and I cannot get a known-to-build-and-run version at a > given point in time, FreeBSD goes away here. > -RELEASE is 'known-to-build-and-run'...and, I believe, so are -SNAPs, so you build all yuor machines with -RELEASE, and if you feel you need to upgrade, through -SNAP on one of your machines, run it for a week so that you are confident with it, and then upgrade the rest of your machines. I believe you do have several PCs running FreeBSD now, don't you? > I don't have a full-time engineer at present to devote to this, nor can > I afford the single mistake that destroys our environment. I can put > someone on this with a 4-10 hour per week commitment, but that's about it. > Sounds like the time to get a -SNAP installed... > Somehow, the -STABLE intent must remain. I don't care *how* it is > accomplished, but it has to be accomplished. An example of the problems is > the difficulty in running nntplink on -STABLE; sometime a couple of months > ago something in the select() call broke, has not been fixed, and nntplink > won't run any longer (and yes, we have been asking infrequently and did > report this when it happened). This means that one particular machine that > could *really* use the recent VM fixes can't have them, because if I load > that kernel on our main news system it stops talking to anyone. > *scratch head* if something in the select() call broke several months ago (and I *am* running -STABLE and -CURRENT machines), why wouldn't it affect everything that uses select()? I've been using innfeed here (much better then nntplink, IMHO) for the past month or so with absolutely no problems, or, no problems related to select() > > 2. -current goes through periods of greater and less stability. It's > > not practical for somebody who wants to run a stable system to > > track -current. On the other hand, the more stable periods of > > -current work very well. > > Correct as well. > Not *really* correct...that is what the -SNAPs are for...someone (Jordan?) determines that the *current* state of -current is stable enough to package as an install kit...similar to how someday, someone will decide that 2.2 is ready for release. Or, better yet, -current *is* 2.2 and the SNAPs are 2.2.x, and > > What we need are shorter branches: say, we start a -stable branch at a > > point on the -current branch where things are relatively stable. Then > > we update it with bug fixes only for a relatively short period (say 4 > > to 8 weeks). *Then we ditch it and start again at a new point on the > > -current tree*. These branches could be called things like > > 2.2.1-stable, 2.2.2-stable, etc. Like this, we could have our > > relative stability while keeping the -stable branches more up to date. > > This will work if it is *clearly* documented when and if these things > happen, and what you can (and cannot) keep at a given time (ie: if I must > reload all the shared libraries then that effectively requires that I dump > the machine and reload; this is a MAJOR problem if you're trying to track > incremental improvements). > Again, isn't this what Jordan is doing with his -SNAPs...stating that at this point in time, it is felt that -current has proven to be stable enough to make an install kit out of? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 12:34:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA14163 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gordius.gordian.com (gordius.gordian.com [192.73.220.81]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14157; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from delphi.gordian.com (delphi.gordian.com [192.73.220.125]) by gordius.gordian.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA07565; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from steve@localhost) by delphi.gordian.com (8.7.2/8.6.9) id MAA08925; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606071932.MAA08925@delphi.gordian.com> From: Steve Khoo To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org CC: jfesler@calweb.com, lars@elbe.desy.de, Georg-Wilhelm.Koltermann@gordian.com, rminnich@Sarnoff.COM, steve@gordian.com In-reply-to: Steve Khoo's message of Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: NFS problem: Irix 5.2 server, 2.2-960501-SNAP client References: <199606040148.SAA12823@delphi.gordian.com> <199606060544.WAA04867@delphi.gordian.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Steve Khoo Subject: Re: NFS problem: Irix 5.2 server, 2.2-960501-SNAP client To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Help!!! I haven't got even one response. Am I the only one that have this problem? Anyway, I tried the latest -current and rolled back to 2.1R and still see the same problem with both. Thanks. SEK From: Steve Khoo Subject: NFS problem: Irix 5.2 server, 2.2-960501-SNAP client To: freebsd-current-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:48:31 -0700 (PDT) I have an interesting nfs problem... The server is running irix 5.2 and the client is running 2.2-960501-SNAP. The mount exit without any error, but when I do df, ls or pwd I get the following: # df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd0a 49231 14290 31003 32% / /dev/sd0s1f 1388387 446552 830765 35% /usr /dev/sd0s1e 49231 797 44496 2% /var procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc hermes:/n/hermes 1468230 1316047 152183 90% /n/hermes hermes:/n/hermes2 997025 867008 130016 87% /n/hermes2 delphi:/n/delphi 639048 639048 0 100% /n/delphi delphi:/n/delphi2 639048 639048 0 100% /n/delphi2 # cd /n/delphi # ls ls: .: Not a directory # pwd pwd: Not a directory # The last two filesystems listed in df are the problem filesystems. The funny thing is, I can nfs mount another SGI(hermes) also running irix 5.2 without any problems. The server with problems(delphi) is a Challenge S server and (hermes) is Indigo. The only difference I can think of is, (hermes) was upgraded from irix 4.05 and the filesystem was created in irix 4.05. All filesystems on (delphi) was created in irix 5.2. Any ideas? I'd appreciate any help. Thanks! SEK Thanks for the all responses and suggestions... It looks like the problem is related to diskstriping on the Irix 5.2. We've been playing around with diskstriping on the sgi to improve performance. I truned off diskstriping and rebooted the sgi lastnight and all seems to be fine now. I supposed it is possible that the sgi was somehow hosed and rebooting fixed it. However, this is unlikely because nfs mounts to other systems were still working; I did umount and mount on sunos and hp machines to the sgi and worked without a problem. I'll have to test it again with striping truned ON on the sgi later, just to double check; Since this sgi is a production unit, I can't be rebooting it too many times. Anyway, we are pretty impressed with this P6 unit so far. We did some benchmarking with a realworld example(we use a gcc cross-compiler for embeded mips system and built one of our source tree), and here are the resuls: SGI 21 mins P6(NFS) 16 mins P6(local) 7 mins The source tree is on the SGI server. P6(NFS) is the compile time for the P6 with the source tree mounted via NFS from the SGI. P6(local) is with the source tree copied over to a local disk on P6. System specs: SGI Challenge S server (Irix 5.2) 150 Mhz R4600 MIPS Processor 160MB RAM Fast Wide Differential SCSI Controller Seagate Barracuda FWD SCSI drives: 2's and 4's 10BaseT NIC P6 (FreeBSD 2.2-960501-SNAP, kernel rebuilt without FAILSAFE option and all the other unnecessary drivers) Intel Pentium Pro 200 Mhz CPU 64M EDO RAM Asus P/I-P6RP4, Orion chipset stepping B0 motherboard NCR Fast Wide Differential SCSI Controller 4G Seagate Barracuda FWD SCSI drive SMC 9332DST 10/100BaseT DC2114 based NIC SEK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve E. Khoo Gordian Systems Manager 20361 Irvine Ave Internet: steve@gordian.com Santa Ana Heights, CA 92707 Phone: (714)850-0205 FAX: (714)850-0533 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 12:54:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA16137 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA16130; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA00238; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:53:25 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:53:25 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606071953.NAA00238@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606071822.LAA03612@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> <199606071822.LAA03612@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > > > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > > > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > > > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, > > > > Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. > > Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the > > documentation. > > The problem with CVS is access protocol. No, the problem is that CVS doesn't handle diverging source trees very well. The access to the tree is *completely* and *utterly* irrelevant to the problems at hand, and just because you want it changed doesn't mean you should get on your soapbox and call for it's implentation. Stick the to *problem* that's being discussed, not one that you (and only you) consider to be a real problem with CVS. You're tryin to break the model that CVS was designed for, and this part of the model is *NOT* one of the problems FreeBSD is facing now. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 12:56:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA16389 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA16376 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA03773; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:49:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606071949.MAA03773@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Breaking ffs - speed en To: stefan@Promo.DE (Stefan Bethke) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:49:27 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Stefan Bethke" at Jun 7, 96 11:50:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ ... logical numeric namespace seperate from the actual inode name space ... ] > This somewhat the same the Mac HFS works. While it doesn't provide = > concurrent different name spaces, Actualy, it provides a PRODOS name. ;-). > each file on a HFS volume has a distict ID, which is never reused. Actually, this is directory ID. File ID's are permitted to be reqused. This is the "open file by handle" technology used by keeping folder ID's around. The file ID is guaranteed to be unique for any file on a server over a boot instance... that is, the unique file ID is permitted to change between boots, but the unique directory ID is not. Since files typically outnumber directories by a wide margin, this buys you the ability to restrict directory ID's to a smaller than 32 bit domain and to use a generation count and FS ID as components of the directory for a given volume. 8-). > This way, a user can rename and move files on = > the same volume anyway s/he likes; any program referencing a file (i. e. = > a placed image in a DTP application) will find the file regardless. Mac = > "aliases" (which essentially serve the same purpose as symlinks) also = > work this way. I thought aliases used directory ID's and file names; they can't use file ID's because of the boot instance nature on the original Appletalk servers would cause this to fail. ;-). > The Mac uses only two functional ids: 2 always is the volume root = > directory, and 1 (I think) is the active "System Folder". Yes. Typically, the active system folder is *always* on a local drive, so this isn't a real big issue. The volume root of 2 fits with the UNIX inode number. Obviously, a volume root never has any additional generations associated with it, so if you count from zero, this fits the server mechanism as well. The limitation is that you must export volumes from your UNIX system, instead of portions of volumes spanning a mount point -- exported volumes for Appletalk, like for NFS, cannot span mount points. > Having a comparable mechanism in a FreeBSD file system would allow Mac = > file servers (such as the one included in the netatalk package) to serve = > the files correctly; currently, the file server simulates the ids, so = > after unmounting and remounting the server volume, file referenced by id = > won't be found anymore. The File ID simulation is acceptable over a given boot instance, as I explained. I can provide Apple documentation references, if you have an Appletalk developer's license and have signed NDA, but it's pretty obvious in the discussion of File ID's in the index of the Appletalk book where to find it. ;-). The Directory ID is not allowed to be changed between boot instances, and *could* benefit from a numberic logical name space. However, what I was suggesting was a name space for "well known objects", not "all objects". It almost *depends* on the number of objects being smaller than the set of all objects. I think a seperate, monotonically increasing, 16-22 bit directory ID is probably a better idea for the Appletalk server (this is what we did in the NWU product Appletalk server as part of building the attributed FS under UnixWare). > So what are file names good for? Currently, the serve two purposes: to = > uniquely identify the file for a program that needs to access that file, = > and for a user to tell files apart. I think the difference is reference-by-name vs. reference-by-content. The use of a "well known files" name space of any kind (I picked numbers instead of English names because of reduced storage requirements) is based on the idea that the contents are known, or are known to be "interesting", at least. > symbolic name best identifies a particular file. However, why shouldn't I = > be able to call /etc/passwd "Local User+Password Database", because I can = > remember better for what the file is good? Of course, working in a shell, = > I still would prefer "passwd". This is the Windows 95 shortname/longname (or the Mac 32 byte name/8.3 PRODOS name) scenario. Both names can be used interchangeably. [ ... "personal views" ... ] > So the solution would be to represent the files in a net rather than in a = > tree, allowing for several views on the filesystem. Again, working in a = > shell, this might be confusing and complicated, so I'd rather stick with = > the current model. And, yes, I could simulate this with gobs of symlinks; = > but that awkward. AFS handles that type of thing. I'd really prefer that the "personal views" result from the UI tools rather than actualy FS changes (though you'd probably want some kind of attribution ability in the FS to help implement them). This would overcome the main drawback of personal views: technical support. One of the biggest mistakes Microsoft made, IMO, was the introduction of "desktop themes". Can you picture the poor phone support person saying "now double-click on the computer icon... you don't have one? OK, then click the train... you don't have one? OK, the plasma ball, then. Now drag the little folder into the wastebasket... you don't have one? Do you have a black hole? How about a beaker of acid? ...". Serious problem for support, IMO. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 13:10:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17417 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA17408; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00297; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:08:04 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:08:04 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072008.OAA00297@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606071954.MAA03809@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606071953.NAA00238@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606071954.MAA03809@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > > > Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. > > > > Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the > > > > documentation. > > > > > > The problem with CVS is access protocol. > > > > No, the problem is that CVS doesn't handle diverging source trees very > > well. The access to the tree is *completely* and *utterly* irrelevant > > to the problems at hand, and just because you want it changed doesn't > > mean you should get on your soapbox and call for it's implentation. > > > > Stick the to *problem* that's being discussed, not one that you (and > > only you) consider to be a real problem with CVS. > > > > You're tryin to break the model that CVS was designed for, and this part > > of the model is *NOT* one of the problems FreeBSD is facing now. > > Nate: you're wrong. > > The main argument against "let's get rid of -stable" is that -stable > is known to be buildable. If -current were known to be buildable, > it would support the argument for getting rid of -stable. No, the main arguement is that -stable is known to be -stable. -Current is almost always (95%) 'buildable', but it's not necessarily 'stable'. Current contains 'experimentable' (aka. known to be unstable) changes in it that stable doesn't (shouldn't) have. Heck, the tree would be buildable if the compiler wouldn't quit dumping core on you. :) As a matter of fact, the difference of the ability of 'stable' vs. 'current' regarding it's buildable state has *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* to do with CVS in *ANY SHAPE OR FORM*. 0, nada, zip, nothing! It is the policy of the FreeBSD project that *any* of the commits done to the tree guarantee that the tree stays 'buildable'. However, this is not strictly enforced (by the developers). However, with -stable more care is taken to keep the tree 'buildable' than is generally taken in -current, but that's due to the developers, not to the tools. The percentage of getting an 'unbuildable' tree due to the tools is noise compared to the liklihood of a developer not doing ensuring the tree is buildable. They aren't even in the same scope, with the developer being responsible for 'unbuildableness' 99.9% of the time. > CVS can reconcile source trees (merge branch tags) just fine... we > did that sort of thing at Novell with a CVS version of three years > ago, no problems. No it *can't*. Don't tell me it can, because the trees have *radically* diverted over the last 15 months to the point that CVS *CAN'T* merge branches. It's *NOT POSSIBLE* to automate the process. So, telling me otherwise is simply showing your ignorance of the *TRUE* problem, which is *COMPLETELY* and *UTTERLY* unrelated to CVS's ability or lack thereof of 'locking' the tree. Please don't make me have to use my caps-lock key this much anymore. You couldn't be more wrong about the issue. (Well, maybe you could, but it would be hard and require serious intention to actually be wrong.) Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 14:18:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA22291 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA22248; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA04073; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:12:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606072112.OAA04073@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:12:45 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072008.OAA00297@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 02:08:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The main argument against "let's get rid of -stable" is that -stable > > is known to be buildable. If -current were known to be buildable, > > it would support the argument for getting rid of -stable. > > No, the main arguement is that -stable is known to be -stable. -Current > is almost always (95%) 'buildable', but it's not necessarily 'stable'. > Current contains 'experimentable' (aka. known to be unstable) changes in > it that stable doesn't (shouldn't) have. Heck, the tree would be > buildable if the compiler wouldn't quit dumping core on you. :) Regrettably, -current has had long bouts of it being unbuildable. The most recent (two week long) bout involved yacc build rule changes. There have also been partial commits of header file changes. The problem is the result of the partial commits, not the result of any inherent instability in -current (barring things like large VM commits, which are going to be destabilizing of -stable if -stable ever includes them as a reintegration). > As a matter of fact, the difference of the ability of 'stable' > vs. 'current' regarding it's buildable state has *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* to > do with CVS in *ANY SHAPE OR FORM*. 0, nada, zip, nothing! Again, with respect, if it is impossible to check out from a tree until usage protocol (*not* CVS implementation) guarantees that the tree is buildable, and the same usage protocol prevents a checkin that isn't self-conssistent across all files in the archive, then the tree will *ALWAYS* be buildable, period. In other words, if a CVS tree can never be "check-out-able" and "unbuildable" at the same time, it will never be possible to have a checkout *not* build. > It is the policy of the FreeBSD project that *any* of the commits done > to the tree guarantee that the tree stays 'buildable'. However, this is > not strictly enforced (by the developers). However, with -stable more > care is taken to keep the tree 'buildable' than is generally taken in > -current, but that's due to the developers, not to the tools. If the developers won't enforce it, the tools and usage protocols should enforce it for them. That's the whole point of having a policy in the first place: to establish tree interaction protocols that don't have race conditions or holes in them. > The percentage of getting an 'unbuildable' tree due to the tools is > noise compared to the liklihood of a developer not doing ensuring the > tree is buildable. They aren't even in the same scope, with the > developer being responsible for 'unbuildableness' 99.9% of the time. Which is why the tools should force the developer to make the assurance. > > CVS can reconcile source trees (merge branch tags) just fine... we > > did that sort of thing at Novell with a CVS version of three years > > ago, no problems. > > No it *can't*. Don't tell me it can, because the trees have > *radically* diverted over the last 15 months to the point that CVS > *CAN'T* merge branches. It's *NOT POSSIBLE* to automate the process. This is a result of lack of discipline in terms of regularaly updating -stable. I think the confusion here is over what -stable is: is -stable a set of maintenance patches to the last -release, or is it a stable version of the -current tree? If the former, then it is unreasonable to expect it to contain all of the fixes that are in -current: specifically, *any* of the fixes that inhernetly affect system structure should *not* go into -stable. If the latter, then, what we are talking about is a mechanism for enforcing tagging of -current at synchronization points where the developers are known to have enforced the policy of "the tree must be buildable" (as you state, this is the responsibility of the developers to follow the checkin protocol that is being subverted). Pick one. > So, telling me otherwise is simply showing your ignorance of the *TRUE* > problem, which is *COMPLETELY* and *UTTERLY* unrelated to CVS's > ability or lack thereof of 'locking' the tree. CVS tree locking would force the developers to more closely adhere to the policy by limiting allowable tree interaction protocols that do not conform to stated policy. In other words, if the developers won't police themselves, the tools should force the policy upon them. I am open to other suggested soloutions (see below). > Please don't make me have to use my caps-lock key this much anymore. > You couldn't be more wrong about the issue. (Well, maybe you could, but > it would be hard and require serious intention to actually be wrong.) I think that you are misinterpreting my argument based on a former misinterpretation of the same argument in an earlier context, instead of taking it at face value in the current context. Instead of offering an implementation, perhaps you would be more comfortable with meta-discussion: ========================================================================== Inre: buildability of -current 1) -current is often not buildable 2) we posit this is disruptive, both to the developement and testing processes, and to the good name and faith of FreeBSD. 3) we posit that there are protocols, which, if obeyed, would cause -current to *always* be buildable 4) we evidentiarily conclude that these protocols are not being obeyed 5) we further conclude that IF the protocols are in fact as desirable as to cause their implementation, AND that the policy was, in fact, good policy, THEN some unspecified form of coercion causing developers to obey the protocols is ALSO desirable, given demonstrable failures of the existing non-coercive policy implementation Inre: buildablitiy of -stable 1) we generally acknowledge that -stable starts as -release, just as -current starts as -release 2) we posit that -stable is not buildable in approximately the same propotion to its change frequency (*not* rate) as -current is not buildable 3) we conclude that -stable may also benefit from enforcement of use of protocols designed to implement policy Inre: function of -stable 1) we acknowled the function of -stable to be as an intermediate tree, between -release and -current 2) we posit that the relationship -stable bears to -release vs. that it bears to -current is generally acknowledged to be indeterminate at this time, with cause cited as there being a dichotomy in administrative policy applied to -stable that has not been resolved 3) we posit that the relationship goals for -current and -release are conflicting, and that this is the source of the policy dichotomy 4) we conclude that the function of -stable needs to be defined, since it is meeting neiter relationship criteria to the general satisfaction of the parties involved 5) we note that one potential resoloution would be to eliminate the implied -stable/-current relationship entirely (as has been proposed by others) in favor of causing -current itself to fulfill that role by meeting the -stable buildability criteria, assuming the previously referenced problems are resolved first Implementation: TBD ========================================================================== Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 14:28:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23111 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23093; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00653; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:27:15 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:27:15 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072127.PAA00653@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072112.OAA04073@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606072008.OAA00297@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606072112.OAA04073@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > The main argument against "let's get rid of -stable" is that -stable > > > is known to be buildable. If -current were known to be buildable, > > > it would support the argument for getting rid of -stable. > > > > No, the main arguement is that -stable is known to be -stable. -Current > > is almost always (95%) 'buildable', but it's not necessarily 'stable'. > > Current contains 'experimentable' (aka. known to be unstable) changes in > > it that stable doesn't (shouldn't) have. Heck, the tree would be > > buildable if the compiler wouldn't quit dumping core on you. :) > > Regrettably, -current has had long bouts of it being unbuildable. The > most recent (two week long) bout involved yacc build rule changes. > There have also been partial commits of header file changes. Due to the developer not doing his job. > The problem is the result of the partial commits, not the result of > any inherent instability in -current (barring things like large VM > commits, which are going to be destabilizing of -stable if -stable > ever includes them as a reintegration). Yes, it was due to the developer not finishing the job that was started. If the tree was locked down at the start of the commit, and then unlocked after the commit finished the job would still not be done. If I only do 50% of the job in one day, the remaining 50% still needs to be done, no matter what kind of tools I have. > > > As a matter of fact, the difference of the ability of 'stable' > > vs. 'current' regarding it's buildable state has *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* to > > do with CVS in *ANY SHAPE OR FORM*. 0, nada, zip, nothing! > > Again, with respect, if it is impossible to check out from a tree > until usage protocol (*not* CVS implementation) guarantees that > the tree is buildable, and the same usage protocol prevents a > checkin that isn't self-conssistent across all files in the archive, > then the tree will *ALWAYS* be buildable, period. This is basically unenforceable at the tool level. The amount of work required to do the 'lint/build/test/etc' *AT* commit time is so beyond the scope of the entire project as to be humorous. > In other words, if a CVS tree can never be "check-out-able" and > "unbuildable" at the same time, it will never be possible to have > a checkout *not* build. Then *FORCE* the developers to *NEVER* check in changes which cause the tree to be unbuildable. That's the *only* solution. There is no other solution to the problem, and locking the tree down during the commit won't make it any more buildable. You have to *FORCE* the developers to only make changes which keep the tree buildable, and this is a problem whose scope is beyond the resources of FreeBSD. Changing to tools to force the developers to keep a buildable tree 'simply won't happen'. Period. End of discussion. The resources aren't there, and I doubt the developers would stand for it in any case because anything your tools do to enforce policy can be circumvented and generally only cause the developers more grief to 'jump through hoops' to get code accepted. This is counter-productive to the entire 'FreeBSD' philosophy. Now, if you want to hire all of us and dock our pay if we check in un-buildable changes then go for it, but until there is a compelling reason to 'do my best' to keep the tree buildable with the current tools then you are wasting bytes. The benefits of 'forcing' commits to be always buildable do not even come close to touching the costs involved. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 14:55:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA26601 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.free-gate.com (www.free-gate.com [205.178.11.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA26591 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked from smtpd); 7 Jun 1996 21:55:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (192.168.1.100) by 192.168.1.1 with SMTP; 7 Jun 1996 21:55:56 -0000 From: jmf@free-gate.com (Jean-Marc Frailong) To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: jmf@free-gate.com Subject: ISC dhcp, AF_UNSPEC & bpf bugs Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:53:16 GMT Organization: FreeGate Corp. Message-ID: <31b894c2.880770591@192.168.1.1> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am currently trying to port the ISC DHCP server to FreeBSD. In the process, I found 2 problems related to the BPF implementation, which they use to send packets on specific interfaces. 1. When sending a packet via BPF, the ether type gets byte-swapped. The issue is the semantics of the link-layer header for AF_UNSPEC packets. FreeBSD assumes that the ether-type field of the link-layer header is in host order, instead of network byte order (see netinet/if_ether.c:arprequest, which has an explicit comment on the topic). This is a strange choice, which is exposed, AFAIK, only via bpf output. NetBSD uses the semantics that the link-layer header is strictly in network byte order, and the ISC DHCP server relies on that (they use NetBSD as one of the test platforms). The problem can be fixed by patching bpf (and hoping that this is the only user-visible case of AF_UNSPEC) or, a-la NetBSD, by modifying the internal semantics of AF_UNSPEC. The second approach looks cleaner, but needs some more work to make sure there are no side effects. Luckily, there are not that may references to AF_UNSPEC in the kernel. Of course, it's always possible to patch the DHCP server (my current solution), but the user-visible semantic difference with NetBSD is quite ugly. 2. ioctl(BIOCGETIF) on a bpf socket does not return the full interface name, only the interface type. This is a simple typo in bpf.c:bpf_ifname: while (*d++ = *s++) continue; --> d -= 1; /* since the null terminating byte has been copied */ *d++ = ifp->if_unit + '0'; *d++ = '\0'; (2) is really a cosmetic issue, but (1) is a major problem if you want the ISC DHCP server to run (they use NetBSD as one of the test platforms). Besides that problem, the ISC DHCP server runs like a charm on FreeBSD. Jean-Marc Frailong From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 15:05:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA27269 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27224; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA04189; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:59:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606072159.OAA04189@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:59:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072127.PAA00653@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 03:27:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Regrettably, -current has had long bouts of it being unbuildable. The > > most recent (two week long) bout involved yacc build rule changes. > > There have also been partial commits of header file changes. > > Due to the developer not doing his job. I agree. > > The problem is the result of the partial commits, not the result of > > any inherent instability in -current (barring things like large VM > > commits, which are going to be destabilizing of -stable if -stable > > ever includes them as a reintegration). > > Yes, it was due to the developer not finishing the job that was started. > If the tree was locked down at the start of the commit, and then > unlocked after the commit finished the job would still not be done. If > I only do 50% of the job in one day, the remaining 50% still needs to be > done, no matter what kind of tools I have. Policy would dictate that the developer responsible would get hate mail from everyone who *did* follow policy, and was unable to commit as a result of the first developers actions. > > Again, with respect, if it is impossible to check out from a tree > > until usage protocol (*not* CVS implementation) guarantees that > > the tree is buildable, and the same usage protocol prevents a > > checkin that isn't self-conssistent across all files in the archive, > > then the tree will *ALWAYS* be buildable, period. > > This is basically unenforceable at the tool level. The amount of work > required to do the 'lint/build/test/etc' *AT* commit time is so beyond > the scope of the entire project as to be humorous. I am not suggesting enforcing this at the tool level; I'm suggesting that the tools should be set up so that this is the "natural" result of their proper use. Right now, it is possible to properly use the tools in accordance with policy and end up with an unbuildable tree. This can happen because, while I am ensuring buildability prior to doing my commits, another developer can be doing commits, and invalidate all of the work I have just done to provide my assurances. There is little incentive for me, as a developer, to do work that will likely be ineffectual, even if it's "policy". > > In other words, if a CVS tree can never be "check-out-able" and > > "unbuildable" at the same time, it will never be possible to have > > a checkout *not* build. > > Then *FORCE* the developers to *NEVER* check in changes which cause the > tree to be unbuildable. That's the *only* solution. There is no other > solution to the problem, and locking the tree down during the commit > won't make it any more buildable. You have to *FORCE* the developers to > only make changes which keep the tree buildable, and this is a problem > whose scope is beyond the resources of FreeBSD. Only because we allow simultaneous checkins so that the complexity of ensuring the tree is buildable is an order of magnitude higher than it needs to be. In reality, common usage will dictate that the tree is checked out of *vastly* more than it is checked into, so a checkin serialization that doesn't affect checkout is probably desirable. The side benefit that you could know that the tree was not in a partially inconsistent state (in the middle of a checkin) at the time you do your checkout is also worthwhile, especially for producing consistent SUP/CTM images of the CVS that maintain the same policy guarantees as the main tree. You *could* choose to checkout while a write tag was in force, or to checkout without asserting a read tag, allowing a write to occur in the middle of your checkout, leving you with an inconsistent tree. But you would have to consciously do so. > Changing to tools to force the developers to keep a buildable tree > 'simply won't happen'. Period. End of discussion. The resources > aren't there, and I doubt the developers would stand for it in any case > because anything your tools do to enforce policy can be circumvented and > generally only cause the developers more grief to 'jump through hoops' > to get code accepted. This isn't true. The developers doing checkin would need to jump through the additional hoop of assuring us that they were not turning the tree to shit (effectively). This is something policy says they should be doing anyway. > This is counter-productive to the entire 'FreeBSD' philosophy. Providing high quality free software? > Now, if you want to hire all of us and dock our pay if we check in > un-buildable changes then go for it, but until there is a compelling > reason to 'do my best' to keep the tree buildable with the current tools > then you are wasting bytes. As long as you are using the current tools, I'm wasting bytes. As far as "hiring everyone and forcing them to play by the rules using reactive enforcement", it's silly. Even if I could hire everyone, I'd still implement a *proactive*, NOT *reactive*, system for policy enforcement. If I *did* hire everyone, the first thing I'd do would be to merge the FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD efforts together to increase gross efficiency, not diddle around with policy models to increase net efficiency... I'd save that diddling for later. Since I can't do this, and I realize that you can't force volunteers to work together like you can force employees (with a whip made of money to use as a tool), I'd like to diddle with increasing net efficiency in FreeBSD. Especially now that you and others have haised the issue in the first place. > The benefits of 'forcing' commits to be always buildable do not even > come close to touching the costs involved. All I have ever suggested was configuring the tools in such a way as to force adherence to *some* aspects of policy. Obviously, I can't force use of consistency protocols down the line (as you point out, the cost of compilation for a commit makes the very idea humorous), even if I was declared "tool god" for the time needed to implement the protocols in the tools. If something like this could resolve the -stable relationship with -release vs. -current, or if it could increase the overall usability of the -stable and -current CVS trees for SUP/CTM consumers, it would be well worth the effort. You can't build a house with a hunk missing out of the foundation, and the point of FreeBSD is to provide a platform for others to build things, *as well* as allowing people to hack on the platform itself. It's as much for the people building the houses as it is for the people pouring the foundations. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 15:09:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA27644 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27635; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00896; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:07:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:07:47 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072159.OAA04189@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606072127.PAA00653@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606072159.OAA04189@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Again, with respect, if it is impossible to check out from a tree > > > until usage protocol (*not* CVS implementation) guarantees that > > > the tree is buildable, and the same usage protocol prevents a > > > checkin that isn't self-conssistent across all files in the archive, > > > then the tree will *ALWAYS* be buildable, period. > > > > This is basically unenforceable at the tool level. The amount of work > > required to do the 'lint/build/test/etc' *AT* commit time is so beyond > > the scope of the entire project as to be humorous. > > I am not suggesting enforcing this at the tool level; I'm suggesting > that the tools should be set up so that this is the "natural" result > of their proper use. > > Right now, it is possible to properly use the tools in accordance > with policy and end up with an unbuildable tree. Yes, but only if the developer isn't paying attention. This has happened less times than I can count on two hands. Considering that we're probably approaching hundreds of thousands of commits since we've started, I'd say we're doing pretty well and that nothing needs to change as far as that part of commit process goes. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 15:21:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28604 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28541; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA04267; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:15:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606072215.PAA04267@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:15:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 04:07:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I am not suggesting enforcing this at the tool level; I'm suggesting > > that the tools should be set up so that this is the "natural" result > > of their proper use. > > > > Right now, it is possible to properly use the tools in accordance > > with policy and end up with an unbuildable tree. > > Yes, but only if the developer isn't paying attention. This has > happened less times than I can count on two hands. Considering that > we're probably approaching hundreds of thousands of commits since we've > started, I'd say we're doing pretty well and that nothing needs to > change as far as that part of commit process goes. Look, I hate coming back to the recent yacc stuff because it makes it look like I'm pointing fingers, but it's just the most recent example in a long line of examples that belie your statement. If this weren't such a hot issue, everyone wouldn't be so ready to fly off the handle over it (you and me included). I don't want to argue the thing into the ground; you have my opinions, my reasoning behind those opinions, and my suggested approach to solving at least part of the problem (with one example method using the suggested approach). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 15:26:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28972 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28966; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00983; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:24:49 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:24:49 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072224.QAA00983@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072215.PAA04267@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606072215.PAA04267@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I am not suggesting enforcing this at the tool level; I'm suggesting > > > that the tools should be set up so that this is the "natural" result > > > of their proper use. > > > > > > Right now, it is possible to properly use the tools in accordance > > > with policy and end up with an unbuildable tree. > > > > Yes, but only if the developer isn't paying attention. This has > > happened less times than I can count on two hands. Considering that > > we're probably approaching hundreds of thousands of commits since we've > > started, I'd say we're doing pretty well and that nothing needs to > > change as far as that part of commit process goes. > > Look, I hate coming back to the recent yacc stuff because it makes > it look like I'm pointing fingers, but it's just the most recent > example in a long line of examples that belie your statement. Poul didn't finish what he started. That was bad, but the locking protocol of CVS wouldn't have done anything to solve that problem. The only way to solve that problem is to either build in enough smarts into the tool so that you *can't* commit code that causes the tree to break (basically impossible given the current resources), or have the developers police themselves and use 'people' to enforce the rules. The issue you brought up was the somehow CVS locking would solve part of the problem, so it's irrelevant to the problem at hand re: -stable vs. -current. No more shall be said by me since all that needs to be said has been. (and then some). Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 15:35:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA29816 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from junior.lgc.com (junior.lgc.com [134.132.10.15]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA29797 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dympna by junior.lgc.com (8.6.9/lgc.1.26) id RAA08624; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:33:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:33:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Rob Snow X-Sender: rsnow@dympna To: Steve Khoo cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NFS problem: Irix 5.2 server, 2.2-960501-SNAP client In-Reply-To: <199606071932.MAA08925@delphi.gordian.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Steve Khoo wrote: [SNIP] > > Thanks for the all responses and suggestions... It looks like the > problem is related to diskstriping on the Irix 5.2. We've been > playing around with diskstriping on the sgi to improve performance. I > truned off diskstriping and rebooted the sgi lastnight and all seems > to be fine now. I supposed it is possible that the sgi was somehow > hosed and rebooting fixed it. However, this is unlikely because nfs > mounts to other systems were still working; I did umount and mount on > sunos and hp machines to the sgi and worked without a problem. I'll > have to test it again with striping truned ON on the sgi later, just > to double check; Since this sgi is a production unit, I can't be > rebooting it too many times. Just checking it on my Indigo2 - Irix 6.2 and mounted an xfs partition with no problem. I've seen problems with Irix and mounting other filesystems, usually solved by -o vers=2 to force v2 instead of v3. > Anyway, we are pretty impressed with this P6 unit so far. We did some > benchmarking with a realworld example(we use a gcc cross-compiler for > embeded mips system and built one of our source tree), and here are > the resuls: > > SGI 21 mins > P6(NFS) 16 mins > P6(local) 7 mins Good looking numbers! > > The source tree is on the SGI server. P6(NFS) is the compile time for > the P6 with the source tree mounted via NFS from the SGI. P6(local) > is with the source tree copied over to a local disk on P6. > > System specs: > > SGI Challenge S server (Irix 5.2) > 150 Mhz R4600 MIPS Processor > 160MB RAM > Fast Wide Differential SCSI Controller > Seagate Barracuda FWD SCSI drives: 2's and 4's > 10BaseT NIC Is this a PC (Primary cache only) or SC (L2 cache added)? > > P6 (FreeBSD 2.2-960501-SNAP, kernel rebuilt without FAILSAFE option > and all the other unnecessary drivers) > Intel Pentium Pro 200 Mhz CPU > 64M EDO RAM > Asus P/I-P6RP4, Orion chipset stepping B0 motherboard > NCR Fast Wide Differential SCSI Controller > 4G Seagate Barracuda FWD SCSI drive > SMC 9332DST 10/100BaseT DC2114 based NIC > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Steve E. Khoo Gordian > Systems Manager 20361 Irvine Ave > Internet: steve@gordian.com Santa Ana Heights, CA 92707 > Phone: (714)850-0205 FAX: (714)850-0533 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Rob Snow Sr. Systems Administrator Landmark Graphics Corporation From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 16:00:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA01647 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01607; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA16854; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:00:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 09:29:32 MDT." <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:00:23 -0700 Message-ID: <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > doing a *ton* of work in both -stable and -current. However, it's a > *LOT* of work. However, I don't think this has anything to do with CVS, > but has to do with the diverging of the trees. P3 may make it easier to > do as far as resources, but the actual work of 'merging' in changes to > both won't be any easier. Building the patches is the hard work IMHO, I think you're forgetting the problem with cvs where: 1. You make a change in -release. 2. You merge it into -stable. 3. You make another change in -release. 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 16:07:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02164 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA02154; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA01251; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:06:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:06:47 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > doing a *ton* of work in both -stable and -current. However, it's a > > *LOT* of work. However, I don't think this has anything to do with CVS, > > but has to do with the diverging of the trees. P3 may make it easier to > > do as far as resources, but the actual work of 'merging' in changes to > > both won't be any easier. Building the patches is the hard work IMHO, > > I think you're forgetting the problem with cvs where: > > 1. You make a change in -release. > 2. You merge it into -stable. > 3. You make another change in -release. > 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* > of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! I don't use 'cvs update -j' to merge it into -stable. 'merge' doesn't work when you've already merged. What *I* do is this, which is a bit more work but does do the job 95% of the time. % cvs log file-to-merge. (Figure out which revision(s) needs to go into the branch). % cvs diff -c -r1.A -r1.B file-to-merge > cdif % cvs update -r BRANCH_TAG % patch file-to-merge < cdif .... % emacs -nw file-to-merge file-to-merge.rej .... % cvs diff -bu file-to-merge [ Review the merged patch, make sure it's ok, build/test/etc. on my box ] % cvs commit file-to-merge This is alot of work, but it *does* the job. Whole-scale merging of trees and directories doesn't work when the trees have already been merged. CVS doesn't operate on the principal of 'everlasting' branches that keep getting 'merges' happen to them. As I understand the CVS model, if we merged everything into -stable, then we should build a new branch at that point in -current since the files are merged. Merges are 'merges', not 'sort of merges'. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 16:28:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03521 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA03481; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA16974; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:27:55 -0700 (PDT) To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" cc: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 10:42:00 CDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:27:55 -0700 Message-ID: <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't have a full-time engineer at present to devote to this, nor can > I afford the single mistake that destroys our environment. I can put > someone on this with a 4-10 hour per week commitment, but that's about it. > .. > Somehow, the -STABLE intent must remain. I don't care *how* it is > accomplished, but it has to be accomplished. An example of the problems is Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more resources to us. It's a pretty simple equation which would be solved in the commercial world by us charging you more money. Since we're not in the commercial world, then it stands to reason that if you or anyone else wants feature or service "X", which we claim is beyond our resources, then it's your task to ensure that we have the resources we need. Knowing your position of relative wealth (far more than any of ours), why not hire a part-timer and "give" him to us? He can work with the other full or part time programmers the other ISPs (or other commercial interests) hire to make -stable everything you want it to be. Everybody gets what they want then - we stop having our very limited resources bifurcated, you get your -stable branch. Anyway, let's Just Do It or stop pounding shoes on the table talking about how "-stable MUST NOT DIE!" and it's up to the current developers to pull a rabbit out of their hats and somehow make it all work. I'd be happy to talk to Karl (or anyone else) about co-managing whatever human resources they can donate to the project. I should also note here that any other proposals which involve me or anyone closely involved in -current development doing the work will be politely deleted - I think I've already made my position more than clear and I will not be budged on it. It's just too much work, members of the core team have complained to me in private that -stable was sucking the life force out of the project (or refused to participate in -stable at all) and they wished we'd stop, this is not a problem that suddenly appeared - it's been 15 months in the making and now we need some additional man power if we're going to deal with it in any more permanant fashion. As I said, I'd be more than happy to talk with the "vested interest" folks in seeing how they personally might not take more responsibility for the -stable service they've come to appreciate. Everyone always talks about how they'd like to give something back, well, here's a golden opportunity! Give me about 2 - 3 part-time employees and I'll give you back a -stable that will make all of us very happy. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 16:42:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04565 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04524; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA17088; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:40:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 11:22:35 PDT." <199606071822.LAA03612@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:40:55 -0700 Message-ID: <17086.834190855@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The problem with CVS is access protocol. I've suggested (many times) > that the way to resolve this is to establish reader/writer locks and > a shell script interface for use by committers or other programs, and Oh, did I also forget to mention that CVS's locking code is totally bogus and slow? :-) It takes *two hours* to check out a copy of /usr/src, not to mention all the time wasted in locking down the tree during commits (CVS crawls through the area you're committing and slaps down lock files everywhere, very very slowly). Then there's the wonderful feeling when you've done a whole set of cleanups to /usr/src and have to do a "commit from the top" - you wait 45 minutes for it to crawl its way through, only to be informed at the end that somebody changed a file in some _completely unrelated_ section of the tree and now, rather than simply merging it in for you (e.g. this is NOT a conflict situation!) CVS aborts and says "I can't go on!". You need to update in the change then start your commit all over again. Sorry, CVS is not my favorite utility. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 16:49:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA05221 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA05182; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA04537; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606072342.QAA04537@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <17086.834190855@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 7, 96 04:40:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The problem with CVS is access protocol. I've suggested (many times) > > that the way to resolve this is to establish reader/writer locks and > > a shell script interface for use by committers or other programs, and > > Oh, did I also forget to mention that CVS's locking code is totally > bogus and slow? :-) > > It takes *two hours* to check out a copy of /usr/src, not to mention > all the time wasted in locking down the tree during commits (CVS > crawls through the area you're committing and slaps down lock files > everywhere, very very slowly). Gee, if only you had top level reader/writer locks so you could turn off the per file locking if a global lock was present and spend about 16,000 less lock/unlock calls. 8-). > Then there's the wonderful feeling when you've done a whole set of cleanups > to /usr/src and have to do a "commit from the top" - you wait 45 minutes > for it to crawl its way through, only to be informed at the end that > somebody changed a file in some _completely unrelated_ section of the > tree and now, rather than simply merging it in for you (e.g. this is NOT > a conflict situation!) CVS aborts and says "I can't go on!". You need > to update in the change then start your commit all over again. Gee, if only you had top level reader/writeer locks that were multiple reader/single writer to serialize groups of changes over a set of 'n' files. 8-). > Sorry, CVS is not my favorite utility. The problem isn't CVS, it's what you put on top of it. You might as well blame RCS for you CVS problems as CVS for your protocol/policy enforcement problems. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 16:57:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA05817 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05775; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA17189; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:56:30 -0700 (PDT) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 15:05:32 EDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:56:29 -0700 Message-ID: <17187.834191789@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Again, isn't this what Jordan is doing with his -SNAPs...stating > that at this point in time, it is felt that -current has proven to be > stable enough to make an install kit out of? Uh, no. :-) I produce SNAPs when there's something we want to _test_, not because they signifify stability milestones (in fact, if something really contraversial and in need of testing has just gone in, I'm prone to make a SNAP of it). Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 17:18:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA07745 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katy.apana.org.au (katy.apana.org.au [202.12.89.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA07736; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from davo@localhost) by katy.apana.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA20140; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:48:20 +0930 From: Dave Edwards Message-Id: <199606080018.JAA20140@katy.apana.org.au> Subject: Re: Interface problem To: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:48:19 +0930 (CST) Cc: sa-tech@tierzero.apana.org.au (Apana SA Technical Group) In-Reply-To: <199606070528.OAA21467@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jun 7, 96 02:58:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 'Michael Smith scribbled..' > From msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Fri Jun 7 14:34:36 1996 > From: Michael Smith > Subject: Re: Interface problem > To: davo@katy.apana.org.au (Dave Edwards) > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:58:18 +0930 (CST) > Cc: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Dave Edwards stands accused of saying: > > > > Is there some limit set on the number of slip/ppp/tun interfaces > > available in 2.1-RELEASE ? > > Not AFAIK. What would be the most important kernel config parameters that may have a bearing here. From my reading, maxusers of 10 should be ample, I've set it to 15 anyway. I am using the default CHILD_MAX and OPEN_MAX settings. We have 14 slip, 10 tun devices in the configuration at the moment. The sliplogin process failed with I think 9 sliplogin processes and 3 or 4 ppp connections. Hmmm, I've just noticed some errors showing in the system message buffer that are not turning up in /var/log/messages at least not in full. dmesg shows: arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo and 110 more lines the same :( I only found two similar lines in /var/log/messages* messages.1:May 30 00:50:19 pasa /kernel: ocate llinfo messages.1:May 30 00:50:19 pasa /kernel: ocate llinfo Note, the machine has only been up 12 hours at the moment so the current stuff shown in dmesg is not getting logged. Is there any way of simulating tail -f `dmesg` :) > > User ppp caused a problem at first with "device not configured" > > sometimes and "can't find ifindex" at others. We got past that > > one with some mods to the ppp code but yesterday, a cslip > > connection failed rather strangely. Sliplogin worked ok and > > configured the interface (sl8) but I could not get it to come > > up. Can anyone tell me why open(/dev/tun0) would return ENOXIO when the device is in use? > > "ifconfig -au" did not show sl8 > > 'ifconfig' uses a fixed-size buffer to obtain information from the > kernel. With lots of interfaces, the buffer is too small. "ifconfig sl8" (the port that wouldn't come up) did not show the UP flag so I assumed thats why ifconfig -au did not list it. Trying to ping the machine on the other end gave network down errors. We are upgrading to a pre-mega_commit -stable tomorrow on another machine with different problem :( more about that in a different message. If that works we will move the dialin machine to -stable within the week. However I can't see any changes to the kernel that would fix the ppp problem in -stable, the slip one has me totally baffled (not hard I assure you :) > > We tried twice with the same result. The same person has had no > > trouble up till now, and he's got on since. He's using ppp until > > I can sort it out. Problem is we rarely get more than 12 > > connections at a time so its hard to troubleshoot.. > > Dummy some on vtys. Good idea. I put in some null cables on 8 spare ports last night for the same purpose. I'll give that a go today. Thanks all. ciao dave -- Dave Edwards davo@katy.apana.org.au || davo@frisbee.net.au Adelaide, South Australia ---- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 17:33:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA09022 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katy.apana.org.au (katy.apana.org.au [202.12.89.57]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA09017; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from davo@localhost) by katy.apana.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA20173; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:03:23 +0930 From: Dave Edwards Message-Id: <199606080033.KAA20173@katy.apana.org.au> Subject: Slow death of a server To: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:03:22 +0930 (CST) Cc: sa-tech@tierzero.apana.org.au (Apana SA Technical Group) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi again, I'm sure I've seen something like this before but can't find the reference at the moment, so forgive me if its faq. On all three of our servers, one running news, a web server, and a serial router, we have had them fail in a consistent way. They continue to route traffic and are pingable but will not respond either on the console, open telnet sessions or start new telnet sessions. Nothing is logged as to what may have caused the problem. The root directories do not grow at all (/tmp and /var are linked to /usr/?), I ran a cron job every 5 minutes for a while on one of the machines logging numbers of processes, uptime, df output and swapinfo. This did not show any steady increase to any of the parameters apart from the usual peaks and lows. The servers are all 486 machines with between 8 and 16 Meg of RAM, one using scusi and the others ide. We have upgraded one of them (the news server) to -stable and we will be moving another over today in the hope this may fix the problem. Can anyone give a hint as to why this should be happening to me? I'm sure I was a good guy in my previous life :) ciao dave -- Dave Edwards davo@katy.apana.org.au || davo@frisbee.net.au Adelaide, South Australia ---- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 17:35:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA09156 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA09150; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080035.RAA09150@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:06:47 MDT." <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:35:43 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* >> of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! > >I don't use 'cvs update -j' to merge it into -stable. 'merge' doesn't >work when you've already merged. What *I* do is this, which is a bit >more work but does do the job 95% of the time. Can't use use some "-r"'s with -j to make this work better? Granted you still have to look at the log file. >Nate -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 17:49:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10490 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA10441; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA01116; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:48:42 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:27:55 PDT." <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:48:41 -0700 Message-ID: <1114.834194921@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > >Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more >resources to us. I would like to back this argument a little bit too. Quite frankly, I'm proud as hell when you people brag about what you're doing with FreeBSD. I'm proud as hell when I wear my FreeBSD T-shirt. I have bought more hardware of more weird sorts than anybody would think they would ever need, and certainly more than I'd ever buy if I didn't care about the quality of installation tools and methods for FreeBSD and other such stuff. I could have started an ISP instead, I could have made money instead. I know I have spent time to the tune of $100K on FreeBSD instead of doing paid work. So far I have no problem with that either because, most of it was fun, and most of the rest of it were just plainly needed to get FreeBSD over a hurdle. What I'm more than a little bit disappointed with, is the number of quite obvious commercial entities with their relative amounts of success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to -core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for you in return ?" If somebody were to be paid for doing FreeBSD work part-time, with the understanding that "it may not be fun, that's why we pay you!" we could get a lot of menial tasks done that simply don't get done because they're not any fun to do in your sparetime. Things like regression testing, documentation, upgrade procedures... Another alternative is to get sufficient money that one or more of the really good FreeBSD people could actually sustain life doing nothing but FreeBSD. Both of these things would help a lot, and it goes without saying that any donation on that kind of scale would result in a higher level of awareness for the donors problems and wishes. But even if you cannot afford that kind of donations, you can still donate to us. The information for donating money is on our web-pages. How about donating $25 every time you install or upgrade a machine with FreeBSD ? That would still be less than half the price of any other thing you could install, say, MS-DOS 6.22 or Windows 95... So, guys, if FreeBSD is so useful to you and your business, maybe you need to think about how you can be useful to the FreeBSD project. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 17:57:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA11371 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11354 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA10626; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:53:49 +1000 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:53:49 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606080053.KAA10626@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: darrenr@cyber.com.au, stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua Subject: Re: Need help with DDB (IPfilter 3.0.4, logging panices FreeBSD) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, ipfilter@coombs.anu.edu.au Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >DDB's "trace" command constantly shows that kernel page fault occurs >in bcopy(), called from near line 616 of fil.c -- the function is >fr_check(). That's near the call to a logging routine, >but I couldn't find any bcopy() call in nearest few lines. bcopy (and all other functions written in assembler) doesn't set up the frame pointer, so stack traces in it don't work right. Usually, the previous function's args are shown as bcopy's args and the previous function's name isn't shown. They are easy to see by examining the stack (x/x $esp,10). >The kernel has "options DDB", no compiler optimization, Not even the default -O? >config(8) had '-g' switch (note: linkage of the kernel failed with this >switch combo; ld didn't find _memcmp symbol, why? I added libc.a to the memcmp is a C library function that isn't available in the kernel. >What makes me wonder is the fact that DDB tells me: bcopy has 4 (four) >args! first being 0x80smth, another three -- some addresses. Gmm... DDB often can't figure out how many args there are. Then it guesses that the args are 5 32-bit numbers. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 18:01:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA12009 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA11887; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA17512; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:59:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 14:59:14 PDT." <199606072159.OAA04189@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:59:42 -0700 Message-ID: <17510.834195582@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Jordan, not looking where he's going, stupidly blunders into this conversation. He won't appreciate the magnitude of his mistake until later.. ] OK, wait a sec.. Let me play reductionist for a moment and see if some less complex scheme that doesn't start with "first, we construct some sub-molecular assemblers" can be devised (Terry goes "Awwwww! That'd be no fun then!"). The question here seems to be "how can we give the users a tree which always builds", right? Well, that's certainly not a new question. Even crazed expatriate brits like Julian Stacey have been calling for that sort of scheme for years! :-) I think the _last_ time we went around this merry-go-round, during which time many of the exact same ideas were floated and rejected as highly impractical, we decided that the best way of doing it would be through some selectively cvs-updated trees which were both available for further supping and used to generate CTM deltas. When to update the tree would be gated by the collection of "tokens" from one or more (preferably more) "token generators". Each time a cooperating machined finished a make world, it would send off a token of some sort (could be an email message) to the server saying, in essence "make world [completed successfully/failed] from tree [blah] on date [blah]" My guess is that you'd run these guys once a night, the token receiver waiting 24 hours for all the reports to filter in and then counting them up, finally generating a go/no go decision on cvs updating the tree. Get somebody to implement the framework, call for volunteer systems to be "token generators", install the server on freefall and have it use the scheme to keep the -current and -stable trees up to date. Anyone wanting more granular updates can always sup/ctm the CVS tree, right? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 18:08:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA12768 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA12690; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17607; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:07:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:06:47 MDT." <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 18:07:47 -0700 Message-ID: <17605.834196067@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't use 'cvs update -j' to merge it into -stable. 'merge' doesn't Yes, but I'd like to be able to is kinda the point. The kinds of gyrations you describe as being necessary only underscore my point.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 18:14:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA13223 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA13218; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA01864; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:14:08 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:14:08 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080114.TAA01864@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <17605.834196067@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> <17605.834196067@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I don't use 'cvs update -j' to merge it into -stable. 'merge' doesn't > > Yes, but I'd like to be able to is kinda the point. The kinds of gyrations > you describe as being necessary only underscore my point.. :-) P3 isn't going to make this any easier, so you're going to have to go through gyrations. The complexity of merging two *very* different trees isn't going to change, and no automatic scheme is going to make it any easier. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:03:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18253 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA18222 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA26381; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:57:25 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606080227.LAA26381@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: RS422/485 driver update To: chuckr@Glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:57:24 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Jun 7, 96 11:11:20 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey stands accused of saying: > > Michael, the .sch file seems to be missing from the tar file, could you > put it up? The schematic is 'rsrssch.prn'; I didn't but the Protel schematic file in there because I figured that it wouldn't be particularly useful. (I should have renamed the '.prn' files to '.ps', that was slack.) Anyway, it's there in the Protel format as well if that's helpful. > This seems really interesting for me, tho I cna't tell right now hwo long > it will take me to get to a keen application. Most modern theatres (at > least in the US) use an RS485 interface, in conjuntion with an incredibly > simple protocol and hardware, to control lighting. The consoles that do > this are really expensive, and it seems like a real good application for > me to fiddle with. Real time for such folks isn't the same real-time as > it is for you and me, at least in my talks with local theatre folk seem > to indicate. Cheap is important! Well cheap certainly wins with this stuff. Not to mention robust & a doddle to work with. > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:04:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18461 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.statsci.com (main.statsci.com [198.145.127.110]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18452; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from statsci.com by main.statsci.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0uSDNn-0005zxC; Fri, 7 Jun 96 19:04 PDT Message-Id: To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view References: <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> <17605.834196067@time.cdrom.com> <199606080114.TAA01864@rocky.sri.MT.net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:14:08 -0600." <199606080114.TAA01864@rocky.sri.MT.net> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:04:06 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > The complexity of merging two *very* different trees isn't going to > change, and no automatic scheme is going to make it any easier. So, it sounds like goal should be to reduce the differences between the "current" tree and the "stable" tree. One question I did have - when a real release happened, why wouldn't you make -release and -stable the same tree at that instant? Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but at some instant, shouldn't -current, -stable and -release be the same thing? Or maybe the -stable tree is the "main trunk" where -release is snapshot'd off of at release time and -current is a major development branch that gets merged into the -stable tree as it is stablized? Ehhh...now that I think on it...that sounds too simplistic. Or keep a -current tree (or collection of them acting as "token generators" as in Jordan's message) that lags the real -current tree by a week or two and snapshot that into a -stable if enough "it was good" "tokens" are received over the one week period? Why does my mind wander back to college and the Heisenberg principle? :-)) Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:09:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA19007 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA18965; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA14858; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:08:49 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:08:49 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > Yes, but only if the developer isn't paying attention. This has > happened less times than I can count on two hands. Considering that > we're probably approaching hundreds of thousands of commits since we've > started, I'd say we're doing pretty well and that nothing needs to > change as far as that part of commit process goes. > I started supping current 2 weeks ago and during this time I saw configuration mistakes go into the tree. I can understand programming bugs, but a mistakes in configuration management that prevent successful builds are a little annoying. How many people does this affect these days? Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having a buildable tree. Would this make the commit process too cumbersome? -mh From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:22:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20541 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20450; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA01467; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:21:58 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org Subject: Parallel SUP's: STOP IT! Reply-to: phk@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:21:58 -0700 Message-ID: <1465.834200518@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I will kindly reiterate that we do NOT want parallel runs of SUP against freebsd.org and that we will without notice blacklist hosts engaged in such behaviour. If your connectivity is that bad, switch to CTM. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:23:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20588 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA20551; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA02108; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:21:42 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:21:42 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080221.UAA02108@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Michael Hancock Cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: References: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > a buildable tree. Would this make the commit process too cumbersome? Because these tools are unattainable. Saying 'it would be nice if we could guarantee that the tree was always buildable' is like saying 'it would be nice if everyone liked everyone'. It's a wonderful goal, but it's unattainable given the current resources. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:26:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA21163 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA21106; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA15013; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:25:24 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:25:24 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Terry Lambert cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072342.QAA04537@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > It takes *two hours* to check out a copy of /usr/src, not to mention > > all the time wasted in locking down the tree during commits (CVS > > crawls through the area you're committing and slaps down lock files > > everywhere, very very slowly). > > Gee, if only you had top level reader/writer locks so you could > turn off the per file locking if a global lock was present and > spend about 16,000 less lock/unlock calls. 8-). > > > Then there's the wonderful feeling when you've done a whole set of cleanups > > to /usr/src and have to do a "commit from the top" - you wait 45 minutes > > for it to crawl its way through, only to be informed at the end that > > somebody changed a file in some _completely unrelated_ section of the > > tree and now, rather than simply merging it in for you (e.g. this is NOT > > a conflict situation!) CVS aborts and says "I can't go on!". You need > > to update in the change then start your commit all over again. > > Gee, if only you had top level reader/writeer locks that were multiple > reader/single writer to serialize groups of changes over a set of 'n' > files. 8-). Maybe you should provide an example of how multiple reader/single writer locks can parrallelize a section of kernel code while keeping things consistent. The developers can then maybe extrapolate the idea to improving the CVS commit process in a very *cheap* yet effective way. Geeks hate words like (enforce|policy) when it comes to areas that affect their working style. But a cool technical idea..... -mh From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:31:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA21698 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA21617; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA15033; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:30:20 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:30:20 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606080221.UAA02108@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having ^^^^^^ I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap effective way to do this. -mh > > a buildable tree. Would this make the commit process too cumbersome? > > Because these tools are unattainable. Saying 'it would be nice if we > could guarantee that the tree was always buildable' is like saying 'it > would be nice if everyone liked everyone'. It's a wonderful goal, but > it's unattainable given the current resources. > > > Nate > -- michaelh@cet.co.jp http://www.cet.co.jp CET Inc., Daiichi Kasuya BLDG 8F 2-5-12, Higashi Shinbashi, Minato-ku, Tokyo 105 Japan Tel: +81-3-3437-1761 Fax: +81-3-3437-1766 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:34:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA22152 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22091; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA23366; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:33:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Watson To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-Reply-To: <1114.834194921@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How about donating $25 every time you install or upgrade a machine > with FreeBSD ? That would still be less than half the price of any > other thing you could install, say, MS-DOS 6.22 or Windows 95... > > So, guys, if FreeBSD is so useful to you and your business, maybe you > need to think about how you can be useful to the FreeBSD project. > > Poul-Henning Damn good idea. I think your 100% right. Gimme an address and ill send money. I think the old saying put up or shut up pretty much is the bottom line here. If we want -stable to continue we will have to take up the slack or it dies. It's that simple. So lets stop arguing about it and we will either get enough support and manpower to keep -stable going or just let it die. Either way I think tempers are starting to flare now between a few people so lets find a new topic since we all know what needs to be done with stable. :) -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.0 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:40:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA23050 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22980; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA29956; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:40:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Chris Watson cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:33:25 EDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:40:10 -0700 Message-ID: <29951.834201610@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Damn good idea. I think your 100% right. Gimme an address and ill send > money. I think the old saying put up or shut up pretty much is the bottom > line here. If we want -stable to continue we will have to take up the Make checks payable to FreeBSD, Inc. and send them to me care of Walnut Creek CDROM, e.g.: FreeBSD, Inc. c/o Jordan Hubbard 4041 Pike Lane, suite #D Concord CA, 94520 I deposit all such checks in a company bank account where we've been waiting for enough to accrue (e.g. more than the $1100 or so we've collected thus far) that we can actually do something with it. Everybody who donates something also gets an entry in the "donors gallery" unless they specifically request otherwise (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/donors.html). Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:44:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA23439 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MediaCity.com (root@easy1.mediacity.com [205.216.172.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA23387; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by MediaCity.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA19029; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:43:12 -0700 From: Brian Litzinger Message-Id: <199606080243.TAA19029@MediaCity.com> Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) To: phk@FreeBSD.org (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, karl@mcs.com, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <1114.834194921@critter.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Jun 7, 96 05:48:41 pm" Reply-To: brian@MediaCity.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > > >Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more > >resources to us. Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > What I'm more than a little bit disappointed with, is the number of > quite obvious commercial entities with their relative amounts of > success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to > -core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for > you in return ?" FreeBSD has long been promoted as free. It is hard for me to imagine how the word "owe" can be associated with the word "free". But then, here in the US, I've run into alot of "free" things in which you really "owe". So perhaps I am out-of-step with the modern meaning of the word free. For the benefit of the aged, like myself, perhaps you could change the name. 8-) -- Brian Litzinger Powered by FreeBSD http[s]://www.mpress.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:56:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24827 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA24748; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA01528; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:55:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Chris Watson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:33:25 EDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:55:12 -0700 Message-ID: <1526.834202512@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , Chris Watson writes: >> How about donating $25 every time you install or upgrade a machine >> with FreeBSD ? That would still be less than half the price of any >> other thing you could install, say, MS-DOS 6.22 or Windows 95... >> >> So, guys, if FreeBSD is so useful to you and your business, maybe you >> need to think about how you can be useful to the FreeBSD project. >> >> Poul-Henning > >Damn good idea. I think your 100% right. Gimme an address and ill send >money. I think the old saying put up or shut up pretty much is the bottom >line here. If we want -stable to continue we will have to take up the >slack or it dies. It's that simple. So lets stop arguing about it and we >will either get enough support and manpower to keep -stable going or just >let it die. Either way I think tempers are starting to flare now between a >few people so lets find a new topic since we all know what needs to be >done with stable. :) It's all there in the handbook: http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook218.html 18.2.6.1. Donating funds While the FreeBSD Project is not a 501(C3) (non-profit) corporation and hence cannot offer special tax incentives for any donations made, any such donations will be gratefully accepted on behalf of the project by FreeBSD, Inc. FreeBSD, Inc. was founded in early 1995 by Jordan K. Hubbard and David Greenman with the goal of furthering the aims of the FreeBSD Project and giving it a minimal corporate presence. Any and all funds donated (as well as any profits that may eventually be realized by FreeBSD, Inc.) will be used exclusively to further the project's goals. Please make any checks payable to FreeBSD, Inc., sent in care of the following address: FreeBSD, Inc. 246 Park St. Clyde CA, 94520 Wire transfers may also be sent directly to: Bank Of America Concord Main Office P.O. Box 37176 San Francisco CA, 94137-5176 Routing #: 121-000-358 Account #: 01411-07441 (FreeBSD, Inc.) If you do not wish to be listed in our donors section, please specify this when making your donation. Thanks! -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 19:58:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA25221 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25170; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA16218; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:58:32 -0700 (PDT) To: brian@MediaCity.com cc: phk@FreeBSD.org (Poul-Henning Kamp), karl@mcs.com, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:43:12 PDT." <199606080243.TAA19029@MediaCity.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:58:31 -0700 Message-ID: <16211.834202711@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to > > -core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for > > you in return ?" > > FreeBSD has long been promoted as free. It is hard for me to imagine > how the word "owe" can be associated with the word "free". But then, > here in the US, I've run into alot of "free" things in which you > really "owe". So perhaps I am out-of-step with the modern meaning > of the word free. I don't think that's what phk intended to say, and if you read that paragraph of his again I think you'll see that he's paraphrasing some ficticious person saything that _they_ feel they owe something. The different is rather stark. > For the benefit of the aged, like myself, perhaps you could > change the name. 8-) Or, for the benefit of those who are poor of eyesight, like yourself, we should simply send out these mailings in larger type. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 20:02:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA25639 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from InfoWest.COM (infowest.com [204.17.177.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA25570; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agifford (zaketh.uv.com [204.17.177.95]) by InfoWest.COM (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA13778; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:08:45 -0601 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960608030130.006e79c4@infowest.com> X-Sender: agifford@infowest.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:01:30 -0600 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org From: "Aaron D. Gifford" Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 05:48 PM 6/7/96 -0700, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> >>Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more >>resources to us. > >I would like to back this argument a little bit too. Quite frankly, >I'm proud as hell when you people brag about what you're doing with >FreeBSD. I'm proud as hell when I wear my FreeBSD T-shirt. > >I have bought more hardware of more weird sorts than anybody would >think they would ever need, and certainly more than I'd ever buy if >I didn't care about the quality of installation tools and methods >for FreeBSD and other such stuff. > >I could have started an ISP instead, I could have made money instead. >I know I have spent time to the tune of $100K on FreeBSD instead of >doing paid work. So far I have no problem with that either because, >most of it was fun, and most of the rest of it were just plainly >needed to get FreeBSD over a hurdle. > >What I'm more than a little bit disappointed with, is the number of >quite obvious commercial entities with their relative amounts of >success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to >-core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for >you in return ?" > >If somebody were to be paid for doing FreeBSD work part-time, with the >understanding that "it may not be fun, that's why we pay you!" we could >get a lot of menial tasks done that simply don't get done because they're >not any fun to do in your sparetime. Things like regression testing, >documentation, upgrade procedures... > >Another alternative is to get sufficient money that one or more of the >really good FreeBSD people could actually sustain life doing nothing but >FreeBSD. > >Both of these things would help a lot, and it goes without saying that >any donation on that kind of scale would result in a higher level of >awareness for the donors problems and wishes. > >But even if you cannot afford that kind of donations, you can still >donate to us. The information for donating money is on our web-pages. > >How about donating $25 every time you install or upgrade a machine >with FreeBSD ? That would still be less than half the price of any >other thing you could install, say, MS-DOS 6.22 or Windows 95... > >So, guys, if FreeBSD is so useful to you and your business, maybe you >need to think about how you can be useful to the FreeBSD project. > >Poul-Henning > >-- >Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. >http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. >whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. >Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. > > I work for an small ISP here in Southern Utah that uses FreeBSD, and I like the idea of contributing back to FreeBSD, particularly the small donation every time one upgrades or installs FreeBSD. I do have few questions and ideas though. Questions first: If someone DID want to contribute money, how would this be done? To what organization would the money be sent? FreeBSD, Inc? Is FreeBSD Inc, a non-profit organization? Ideas: Why not add a web page or two on the www.freebsd.org site describing how to contribute money, hardware, labor, etc? The page might suggest a tiered donation scheme (perhaps something like $25, $50, $100, $200, $500, $1000, etc. donations per install or upgrade) where donors are listed on appropriate web pages according to their donation level. A $25 donor might just get a quick 1-line listing while the $1000 GOLD LEVEL donor might have the opportunity to place an icon, web link, and brief paragraph describing how they use FreeBSD. I understand that the donation scheme should probably be kept SIMPLE so that the amount of time to administer donations doesn't eat into the donation value. The advantage of a suggested donation scheme would be in prompting users (perhaps with guilt? ) to participate, as well as making administration of donations somewhat simpler. I think that recognizing donors on a web page might encourage donations as well. A plus to having a tiered donation scheme is that everyone can donate according to their ability. Gee, this is beginning to sound almost like my local PBS station's fund drive! Oh well. I was just brainstorming. Aaron out. --=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=-- Aaron D. Gifford InfoWest, 1845 W. Sunset Blvd, St. George, UT 84770 InfoWest Networking Phone: (801) 674-0165 FAX: (801) 673-9734 Visit InfoWest at: "http://www.infowest.com/" ICBM: 37.07847 N, 113.57858 W "Southern Utah's Finest Network Connection" --=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 20:04:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26018 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26004 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id MAA15235 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:04:21 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:04:20 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Testing DE driver In-Reply-To: <199606032200.WAA28097@whydos.lkg.dec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm testing Matt Thomas' experimental DE driver. Well sort of. What would be a good way to stress test this driver? All I've done so far with the driver was a few large sup sessions and running NetScape. Also, how do I check to see if there are any ipintrq drops? -mh On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Matt Thomas wrote: > > I modified my new/normal if_de.c driver to do something > quite different from most network drivers. > > This driver will defer processing of interrupts to a > netisr routine. Actually the acknowledges an interrupt, > and disables interrupts for the device, and waits for > a software interrupt to acutally service the interrupt. > > Thus hardly any of the driver runs splimp and most runs > at splnet. > > This also results in pratically no drops at the protocol > layer (ie. ipintrq). With a small change to ether_input > and ip_input, one could even bypass ipintrq and have > much fairer input processing (reduce queueing delays and > effects considerably). > > If you are in an environment where you are getting > ipintrq drops with the de driver, I'd be very curious > to see what results you get from this driver. > > Send me mail if you are interested... > > (Anything after 2.1.0-RELEASE should work fine included > 2.2-current). > > -- > Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com > 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html > Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message > > -- michaelh@cet.co.jp http://www.cet.co.jp CET Inc., Daiichi Kasuya BLDG 8F 2-5-12, Higashi Shinbashi, Minato-ku, Tokyo 105 Japan Tel: +81-3-3437-1761 Fax: +81-3-3437-1766 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 20:06:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26298 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26249; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01569; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:06:02 -0700 (PDT) To: brian@MediaCity.com cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:43:12 PDT." <199606080243.TAA19029@MediaCity.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 20:06:00 -0700 Message-ID: <1567.834203160@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dear Brian, If you have never sent one single email to us saying anything along the lines of "geeze, it would help me much if you could ..." then you can go happily on with your life and not pay anything to anybody. If you have something you want done to FreeBSD, they you may have to consider that you're asking one of us to do it in our spare time, to save your butt, very likely in some professional context. I'm not asking for the money for a new swimming pool for anybody. I'm asking for the money, so that we can get somebody to help us do the things that somebody like you, and, quite possibly you too wants to see in FreeBSD, but which falls so far from our idea of fun that it will not otherwise happen. If you think FreeBSD is not FREE because we ask for volountary donations to make it even better, then maybe we should donate to an education to you in straight thinking, because you're clearly not good at it at this time. With not too much respect, Poul-Henning Kamp >Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> What I'm more than a little bit disappointed with, is the number of >> quite obvious commercial entities with their relative amounts of >> success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to >> -core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for >> you in return ?" > >FreeBSD has long been promoted as free. It is hard for me to imagine >how the word "owe" can be associated with the word "free". But then, >here in the US, I've run into alot of "free" things in which you >really "owe". So perhaps I am out-of-step with the modern meaning >of the word free. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 20:12:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA27049 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA27039; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA15037; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:09:32 +1000 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:09:32 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606080309.NAA15037@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: davo@katy.apana.org.au, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interface problem Cc: sa-tech@tierzero.apana.org.au Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Hmmm, I've just noticed some errors showing in the system message >buffer that are not turning up in /var/log/messages at least >not in full. dmesg shows: >arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo >and 110 more lines the same :( >I only found two similar lines in /var/log/messages* >messages.1:May 30 00:50:19 pasa /kernel: ocate llinfo >messages.1:May 30 00:50:19 pasa /kernel: ocate llinfo It looks like the message buffer filled up. >Note, the machine has only been up 12 hours at the moment so the >current stuff shown in dmesg is not getting logged. Is there any >way of simulating tail -f `dmesg` :) It should get logged. >> > User ppp caused a problem at first with "device not configured" >> > sometimes and "can't find ifindex" at others. We got past that >> > one with some mods to the ppp code but yesterday, a cslip >> > connection failed rather strangely. Sliplogin worked ok and >> > configured the interface (sl8) but I could not get it to come >> > up. The SLIOCSUNIT ioctl is poorly implemented in 2.1R and -stable. It always allocates the specified unit even if this unit is in use or doesn't exist. Perhaps this causes some of your other problems. >Can anyone tell me why open(/dev/tun0) would return ENOXIO when >the device is in use? ENXIO. It just returned ENXIO when it should have returned EBUSY. This was recently fixed in -current. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 20:29:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA28362 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA28316; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01689; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:29:11 -0700 (PDT) To: "Aaron D. Gifford" cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:01:30 MDT." <2.2.32.19960608030130.006e79c4@infowest.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 20:29:11 -0700 Message-ID: <1687.834204551@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk First: we have a very wide distribution on this subject, please don't quote the entire message, and watch that CC line please ! >Questions first: If someone DID want to contribute money, how would this be >done? To what organization would the money be sent? FreeBSD, Inc? Is >FreeBSD Inc, a non-profit organization? So far we havn't pushed the fund-raising very hard, as can be seen from the fact that I had to actually grep the handbook to find the right place, and that Jordan just updated the address to match current reality. We havn't got enough money to make it worth the effort to make it a tax exempt org of any kind, and likewise there are no or few procedures in place to control our usage of the money. Basically we say, "trust us". (The fact that most of you run code we write on your computers indicates to me that you already trust us quite a lot, thanks! :-) Until the cash-flow warrants such procedures we'd rather spend our time hacking code if you understand me, so I hope this rather loose arrangement is OK with our donors. I don't think there is anything preventing us from putting the actual accounts up on the web, but I don't even think we have used any money yet, all we have is about USD1000 or so I think, not really enough for the stuff we want to do. Likewise if a major donation is ear-marked I'm sure we'll be able to account for it's proper use to the donor. FreeBSD Inc is a corporation registered by a number of members of the FreeBSD core-team, and we use that as the official framework for the money stuff at this time. If at some time there is a business case for a non-profit org, we will probably make one, but at this time the paperwork would be too prohibitive. If there are donors out there in the world who think that sending money to U.S.A is a terrible thing or just too much hazzle, contact a core-member in your end of the world, we can probably arrange something. Thanks for the ideas! -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 20:52:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA00671 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA00665 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id UAA12353; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080352.UAA12353@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Chitra Venkatramani cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel EtherExpress Pro/100B In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 11:14:48 EDT." <199606071514.LAA20410@ecsl.cs.sunysb.edu> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 20:52:56 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Is this card supported in FreeBSD 2.1.0 ? If not, can I somehow incorporate the >drivers from the current release into the FreeBSD 2.1.0 ? I wrote a driver for it and it's available in 2.1-stable and in -current. You can get it from there or you can wait for the next release of FreeBSD. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 21:06:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA02056 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02014; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA12386; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 09:29:32 MDT." <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:06:31 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >This kind of work is necessary for -stable to exist, and apparently at >least Jordan and David are completely unwillingly to do this. Do any of >the developers (and Peter the CVS-meister) have anything to say? I've obviously been willing since I've been doing this for over a year now. The problem is that I have no time to work on new development myself. New development is the "fun" part of FreeBSD. I haven't had any FreeBSD "fun" for more than a year now, and I'm quickly approaching the burnout point (actually, I've already burnt out; I'm currently forcing myself to continue in this role only because I feel obligated to get the release out). This is a difficult problem for me. I've intentionally placed myself in- between the release tree (which is currently -stable) and -current in an attempt to improve the quality of FreeBSD releases. If I decide not to do this any longer, then I'm affraid that the quality of the released code will go into the toilet. We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 21:08:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA02212 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA02123; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA02519; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:07:40 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:07:40 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080407.WAA02519@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Michael Hancock Cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: References: <199606080221.UAA02108@rocky.sri.MT.net> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > ^^^^^^ > > I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while > commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap > effective way to do this. They wouldn't enforce or even help the policy. Multiple reader/single writer locks don't solve any significant problem we've faced. Why do something that limits the ability of developers to commit changes when the problem the fix happens .001% of the time? It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 21:17:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA03388 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03330; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA05233; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:11:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080411.VAA05233@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:11:16 -0700 (MST) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jun 8, 96 11:30:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > ^^^^^^ > > > a buildable tree. Would this make the commit process too cumbersome? > > > > Because these tools are unattainable. Saying 'it would be nice if we > > could guarantee that the tree was always buildable' is like saying 'it > > would be nice if everyone liked everyone'. It's a wonderful goal, but > > it's unattainable given the current resources. > > I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while > commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap > effective way to do this. Exactly. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 21:22:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA03945 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03899; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id VAA02119 ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:21:54 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA02553; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:19:19 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:19:19 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080419.WAA02553@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: davidg@Root.COM Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> References: <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one > that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. Do you have any suggestions? Would creating a new 'stable' tree today be even remotely acceptable? Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 21:40:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA05972 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bacchus.eng.umd.edu (bacchus.eng.umd.edu [129.2.94.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA05965 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.8.22.196] (annex8-52.dial.umd.edu [128.8.22.196]) by bacchus.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA22177 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:40:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: crb@bacchus.eng.umd.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:40:30 -0400 To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org From: crb@glue.umd.edu (Christopher R. Bowman) Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #1211 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >While the FreeBSD Project is not a 501(C3) (non-profit) corporation and >hence cannot offer >special tax incentives for any donations made, any such donations will be >gratefully accepted on >behalf of the project by FreeBSD, Inc. Why isn't it a 501 c3? --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@eng.umd.edu My home page From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 21:46:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA06470 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA06430; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA05318; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:40:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080440.VAA05318@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:40:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jun 8, 96 11:25:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Gee, if only you had top level reader/writeer locks that were multiple > > reader/single writer to serialize groups of changes over a set of 'n' > > files. 8-). > > Maybe you should provide an example of how multiple reader/single writer > locks can parrallelize a section of kernel code while keeping things > consistent. The developers can then maybe extrapolate the idea to > improving the CVS commit process in a very *cheap* yet effective way. > > Geeks hate words like (enforce|policy) when it comes to areas that affect > their working style. But a cool technical idea..... I think I did provide an example of this -- I don't rememebr if it was on the SMP list or on -hackers, now, though. It had to do with setting up hierarchical lock management for per processor memory pools that are filled from a system pool, or drained to the system pool when they hit a high "pages free" watermark. For a non-SMP ecample, you could visualize reeentering the FS on multiple searches of the same directory. If I set a reader lock on a block, it would prevent block compaction, but only in that block, so that creates would not change the block offset while the block is being read. For a block in which a create/delete were taking place, a writer lock would be asserted, which would block reading until the write had completed. This would allow any number of readers to enter a block, as long as there was no writer, but only one writer to enter the block (when there were no readers -- the "IW" (Intention to Write lock) assertion is made on the block, and subsequent readers are prevented from entering, --but may assert an "IR" -- (Intention to Read lock) to prevent multiple writers from starving the readers. The "IW" is converted to a "W" when all of the readers have "drained" out of the locked segment. After the write completes, the "W" is deasserted, and the "R" blocks can be serviced. When no more "IR"'s remain to be converted to "R" (since the conversion is global and simultaneous for all IR's, since they are not exclusive), then any outstanding IW assertions are allowed to complete, and again, any "W" is blocked pending reader drain. For a CVS implementation, it would be relatively easy to exclusively lock the "want lock" list" and process it linearly in the "unlock" process, with a one second (or 5 second) file modification "poll" by all waiters. Perhaps, ideally, you would want something like: [ ... ] # # cvs_lock_read_wait - shell function to wait for read lock # cvs_lock_read_wait() { while true do cvs lock read if test "$?" = "0" then echo "reader lock acquired" exit 0 fi echo "waiting..." sleep 5 done } # # cvs_help - extended help after real help, or args + -H # cvs_help() { case "$1x" in x) $REALCVS -H ; ST=$? echo " lock Lock command"; exit $ST;; lock) echo "Usage: cvs lock [read | write ]"; exit 1;; unlock) echo "Usage: cvs unlock"; exit 1;; *) $REALCVS -H $*; ST=$?; exit $ST;; else $REALCVS $* fi } # # cvs_default - all other (non-lock, non-help) commands # cvs_default() { $(REALCVS) $* } [ ... ] This all being part of the "cvs" shell script that replaces the real cvs program, which has been renamed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:05:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07629 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07587; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA05346; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:58:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080458.VAA05346@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:58:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> from "David Greenman" at Jun 7, 96 09:06:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >This kind of work is necessary for -stable to exist, and apparently at > >least Jordan and David are completely unwillingly to do this. Do any of > >the developers (and Peter the CVS-meister) have anything to say? > > I've obviously been willing since I've been doing this for over a year now. > The problem is that I have no time to work on new development myself. New > development is the "fun" part of FreeBSD. I haven't had any FreeBSD "fun" for > more than a year now, and I'm quickly approaching the burnout point (actually, > I've already burnt out; I'm currently forcing myself to continue in this role > only because I feel obligated to get the release out). > This is a difficult problem for me. I've intentionally placed myself in- > between the release tree (which is currently -stable) and -current in an > attempt to improve the quality of FreeBSD releases. If I decide not to do this > any longer, then I'm affraid that the quality of the released code will go > into the toilet. We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one > that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. The "grunt work" of synchronization needs to be automated, as much as possible, to move the load off of David. I've been where he is now (I still am, in some respects, with some of my unintegrated code), and it is not a happy place to be. I'm certainly not saying that moving -current to being closer to the goals of -stable by enforcing buildability is the *only* way, but it is most certainly *a* way. The build/token process is *another* way. I think the token process is only necessary if you can't guarantee a buildable tree at checkout (which is where I'd like to see the problem attacked). The token process also only guarantess some *eventual* success, and can't be seperately tagged, apart from checkout time, which makes it painful to build world. I think this is too intermittent to leave the -stable repository mirror of a snapshot of the -current repositopry working. An alternative (which isn't reasonable at this time) would be to provide a mechanism for CVS tree migration based on delta-tags, so that deltas up to the tag date that don't exist in the -stable tree are imported to the -stable tree based on a successful build. This grants some control over "when to move up stable" seperate from "every time a build succeeds", in a nicely automated way. I like this last (though unreasonable) way because if I allow conflict resoloution at each stage of the integration process for the delta segments, I've just bought myself the ability to maintain multiple source bases and integrate them, if only by date-cutting myself copies of the CVS tree for each one of the sub-projects I want to work on, and I can merge them into a combined project (to work on my overpass, I was talking about before). I'd still be missing the pice that lets me adjust the "merge-from" tree to resolve the conflict instead of the "merge-to", but it's a hell of a lot closer to ideal to be able to insert one delta at a time from one CVS tree (-current) into another (-stable) to incrementally update it. The missing piece is a global change log (from the writer unlock logs, presumably) to insert deltas as change span sets, so that I get all of the deltas for one self-consistent set of changes in one update/merge. I haven't spent any real time looking at CVS to see what it would take to stuff non-merge deltas in, one at a time, from another (later) tree to get a -stable tree, let alone looked at the issues of conflict resoloution for multiple tree merges. Clearly, a first step would be to tag the tree at the replication point so that local changes could be distinguished from conccurent changes in the "real" tree... from there, it would take a bit of CVS hacking to work out. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:13:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA08347 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA08336 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA10375; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:13:25 -0700 (PDT) To: davidg@Root.COM cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:06:31 PDT." <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:13:24 -0700 Message-ID: <10373.834210804@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [cc trimmed - 3 major lists is just too many :-)] > The problem is that I have no time to work on new development myself. New > development is the "fun" part of FreeBSD. I haven't had any FreeBSD "fun" for > more than a year now, and I'm quickly approaching the burnout point (actually , > I've already burnt out; I'm currently forcing myself to continue in this role > only because I feel obligated to get the release out). I could have written exactly the same words myself. There are mornings when I wake up and just want to drive to the international terminal at the airport. "One ticket to wherever you're going next", I'd say, and they'd say "We have a Nambian Airways DC9 taking doctors to Zaire for the new Ebola outbreak" and I'd say "Fine. One please." > into the toilet. We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one > that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. Amen bruddah. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:22:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA09307 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA09280; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA10395; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:22:14 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: stable@freebsd.org Reply-to: stable@freebsd.org Subject: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1-960606-SNAP is out. Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:22:13 -0700 Message-ID: <10392.834211333@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk And the subject pretty much says it all... See: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1-960606-SNAP/RELNOTES.TXT for important information before installing this thing! This is the first SNAPshot made along the 2.1-STABLE branch, for those who were wondering, and is a prelude to the anticipated 2.1.5-RELEASE. It's being released for TESTING purposes and any additional convenience you may derive from it is entirely accidental. :-) Have fun! Jordan P.S. No, I don't have an exact release date for 2.1.5-RELEASE yet. That's going to depend largely on what kinds of problems you find in this SNAPshot! :-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:24:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA09544 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA09538 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA10424; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:24:27 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: davidg@Root.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:19:19 MDT." <199606080419.WAA02553@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:24:27 -0700 Message-ID: <10422.834211467@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Do you have any suggestions? Would creating a new 'stable' tree today > be even remotely acceptable? You mean as a solution, or are you speaking more generally? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:26:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA09717 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA09701 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA02800; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:26:46 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:26:46 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080526.XAA02800@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , davidg@Root.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <10422.834211467@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606080419.WAA02553@rocky.sri.MT.net> <10422.834211467@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Do you have any suggestions? Would creating a new 'stable' tree today > > be even remotely acceptable? > > You mean as a solution, or are you speaking more generally? As a solution today, but not necessarily the 'best' solution. However, I think everyone agrees we need to get both you and David back to having fun, and I'm proposing this as *one* way to make it start to happen this weekend. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:28:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA09863 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA09809 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA10449; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:27:46 -0700 (PDT) To: crb@glue.umd.edu (Christopher R. Bowman) cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #1211 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:40:30 EDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:27:46 -0700 Message-ID: <10447.834211666@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >While the FreeBSD Project is not a 501(C3) (non-profit) corporation and > >hence cannot offer > >special tax incentives for any donations made, any such donations will be > >gratefully accepted on > >behalf of the project by FreeBSD, Inc. > > Why isn't it a 501 c3? Because my lawyer talked me out of that. It's an ongoing booking headache which I really don't need. Keeping the books for a 501(c)3 also costs around $1K/yr (if you want to KEEP your non-profit status), which far more than for a run-of-the-mill C corp. With our current assets, the first year would have wiped us out already. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:31:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA10147 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA10105; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA05423; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:25:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080525.WAA05423@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:25:01 -0700 (MST) Cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp, nate@sri.MT.net, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606080407.WAA02519@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 10:07:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > > ^^^^^^ > > I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while > > commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap > > effective way to do this. > > They wouldn't enforce or even help the policy. Multiple reader/single > writer locks don't solve any significant problem we've faced. Why do > something that limits the ability of developers to commit changes when > the problem the fix happens .001% of the time? > > It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% > faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU > time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. This is *not* an issue of "optimizing the boot code". This *is* an issue of removing the potential for developer checkin conflict, so that the only margin for error is that of the developer who disobeys protocol. It also *cleary* identifies the violator, and avoids needless rounds of finger-pointing, investigation, damage-control, and repair. Whoever gets the write lock before you, it's *your* responsibility to make sure *your* changes don't conflict with *his/her* changes when you get the lock. I also believe you are neglecting the fact that the CVS repository is broken up into multiple collections, and that the lock is not global to the system, it's global to the collection. This is far less likely to cause "inter-developer conflicts for write lock acquisition" than if it were all in one collection. The majority use of the tree is going to be of type "reader", not of type "writer". The programs that deal with CVS tree mirroring for the SUP and CTM servers, and local checkouts, will be the majority usage. You don't need the writer lock uless you are writing, and another developer doesn't need the writer lock unless they are committing code in the same are (in which case, it's a damn good thing you are not both going at it at once). The net results are that the claim "merge cascade failure" is no longer a valid excude for an unbuildable tree. If Jim-Bob makes the tree unbuildable, it's obvious that Jim-Bob is a protocol violator. If he does this a lot, then there should probably be a policy enforcement decision by "the grantors of tree access" to prevent future offenses. The intended effect is a buildable tree and identifiable culprits in the case of a non-buildable tree. If Jim-Bob and John-Boy make changes in the same area simultaneously, and the tree does not build, there is currently no way to assign blame. Because of this, people play "fast and loose" with the tree, hoping that it will be too dificult to track the transgressor. If Jim-Bob has to assert that John-Boy can't write the tree for him to be able to, he will think twice before writing to the tree. Hopefully, part of this "think" will include building his checked-out portion of the tree before checking it in, which is what the policy says he should do anyway. What you seem to be claiming as "limiting the ability of the developer to commit changes", is really "limiting the ability of the developer to commit changes in violation of protocol". To test your "conflict inconvenience" theory, I suggest you implement reader/writer locks with no teeth, that output "CONFLICT WITH LOCK BY USER XXX", with a time stamp, to a log. Also "in" and "out" times. Then we can examine the conflicts that arise in real usage, and determine: 1) How often the conflict is a writer wanting to write when a reader was actively reading (meaning the writer was allowed by the lack of teeth,and the reader's data has been potentially corrupted into unbuildability). 2) How often the reader whose data was potentially trashed was SUP or CTM (meaning we greatly multiplied the problem in #1). 3) How often a reader came in while a write was active (meaning the reader has made a snapshot of a potentially inconsistent tree that was avoidably corrupt by nature of allowing readers while there are writers active). 4) How often the reader whose data was potentially trashed was SUP or CTM (meaning we greatly multiplied the problem in #3). 5) How often one writer came in while another writer was in, and how many of those writes afftected header files that the affected the others work, or actual sorce files were potentially conflicted, by file. 6) Using "in" and "out", how often and whay kind of delays occurred as a result of the locks. 7) Count of total delay (delay for readers is negative, while delay for writers is positive, because of the nature of writer corruption of reader data). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:35:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA10678 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA10636; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA10487; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:33:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: davidg@Root.COM, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:58:35 PDT." <199606080458.VAA05346@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:33:49 -0700 Message-ID: <10485.834212029@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think the token process is only necessary if you can't guarantee a > buildable tree at checkout (which is where I'd like to see the > problem attacked). The token process also only guarantess some But it probably won't be, so let's try to be realistic. You always want to rebuild the foundation and then go away in a huff when everyone insists on building on top of the old one.. :-) I don't think it's practical to contemplate the introduction of any system that doesn't sit easily on top of existing tools. Not at this time. The tokens aren't elegant, but they'll *work* and that's more than we have now! > *eventual* success, and can't be seperately tagged, apart from > checkout time, which makes it painful to build world. I think > this is too intermittent to leave the -stable repository mirror > of a snapshot of the -current repositopry working. I don't quite understand this argument. You start from success, e.g. a good tree. It stays a good tree until one day the token counter decides that what it's got today is _another_ success story and it creates the CTM deltas/does a supscan/whatever. You now get these changes, do another make world and tada! It works and continues to work until the next clean transition. What's so painful about that? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:36:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA10823 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA10818; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA02830; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:35:19 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:35:19 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080535.XAA02830@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606080525.WAA05423@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606080407.WAA02519@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606080525.WAA05423@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% > > faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU > > time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. > > This is *not* an issue of "optimizing the boot code". > > This *is* an issue of removing the potential for developer checkin > conflict, so that the only margin for error is that of the developer > who disobeys protocol. But we don't have a problem with checkin conflict. It's simply a non-problem. If it ain't broke, don't spend alot of time fixing it. How many times do I have to say this? > The net results are that the claim "merge cascade failure" is no > longer a valid excude for an unbuildable tree. If Jim-Bob makes > the tree unbuildable, it's obvious that Jim-Bob is a protocol > violator. If he does this a lot, then there should probably be > a policy enforcement decision by "the grantors of tree access" > to prevent future offenses. It's obvious now who breaks the tree. We don't need CVS to tell us that. > The intended effect is a buildable tree and identifiable culprits > in the case of a non-buildable tree. Since it won't help the former and the latter is already a known, what's the point? Jim-Bob and John-Boy *don't* make changes to the tree simulateously. I suppose if we had another couple hundred committers we might have this problem, but we don't. CVS == Concurent Versions System It allows concurrent access to the tree my multiple-writers *BY DESIGN*. It's NOT BROKEN anywhere except in your mind. It *WON'T* fix any problems that are of any significance in the FreeBSD build tree. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:40:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA11289 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA11249; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA12681; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080540.WAA12681@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:19:19 MDT." <199606080419.WAA02553@rocky.sri.MT.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:40:28 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one >> that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. > >Do you have any suggestions? Would creating a new 'stable' tree today >be even remotely acceptable? I think that's an interesting idea, but lets allow the issue to get a fair airing (at least a week or two) before taking any steps in this direction. We really need to kill this thread: I had 800 emails in my inbox today, and this is about twice the usual amount. I can't deal with this much email; I've been sitting here for the past 5 hours reading it all and I'm getting really sick of it. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 22:45:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA11777 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA11766 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA12703; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080545.WAA12703@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: crb@glue.umd.edu (Christopher R. Bowman) cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #1211 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:40:30 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:45:53 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>While the FreeBSD Project is not a 501(C3) (non-profit) corporation and >>hence cannot offer >>special tax incentives for any donations made, any such donations will be >>gratefully accepted on >>behalf of the project by FreeBSD, Inc. > >Why isn't it a 501 c3? Because a 501(c)(3) is too difficult to set up and because we're too busy to deal with it. It also makes taxes more difficult to do and has other reporting requirements. We're not going to do this unless and until we have real money to worry about. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 23:00:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA13267 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA13259 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id XAA12797; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080600.XAA12797@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: jmf@free-gate.com (Jean-Marc Frailong) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISC dhcp, AF_UNSPEC & bpf bugs In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:53:16 GMT." <31b894c2.880770591@192.168.1.1> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:00:28 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I am currently trying to port the ISC DHCP server to FreeBSD. In the >process, I found 2 problems related to the BPF implementation, which >they use to send packets on specific interfaces. > >1. When sending a packet via BPF, the ether type gets byte-swapped. This issue keeps coming up - I think it was the AppleTalk people the last time. I personally could care less which way it is and don't have an opinion. Someone just decide which way it fits the standard usage model the best and send in a diff. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 23:10:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA13978 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA13882; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA05574; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:03:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080603.XAA05574@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:03:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606080535.XAA02830@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 11:35:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% > > > faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU > > > time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. > > > > This is *not* an issue of "optimizing the boot code". > > > > This *is* an issue of removing the potential for developer checkin > > conflict, so that the only margin for error is that of the developer > > who disobeys protocol. > > But we don't have a problem with checkin conflict. It's simply a > non-problem. If it ain't broke, don't spend alot of time fixing it. > > How many times do I have to say this? Until -current builds with no errors that can't be traced to a policy violation (and a specific violator) for a period of one month. > > The net results are that the claim "merge cascade failure" is no > > longer a valid excude for an unbuildable tree. If Jim-Bob makes > > the tree unbuildable, it's obvious that Jim-Bob is a protocol > > violator. If he does this a lot, then there should probably be > > a policy enforcement decision by "the grantors of tree access" > > to prevent future offenses. > > It's obvious now who breaks the tree. We don't need CVS to tell us > that. If "committer #1" checks in changes to modules A, B, C, and Q, and "committer #2" cheks in changes to modules X, Y, Z, and Q, and there is a cumulative conflict, who is at fault if their access was not serialized? Answer: the tools. > > The intended effect is a buildable tree and identifiable culprits > > in the case of a non-buildable tree. > > Since it won't help the former and the latter is already a known, what's > the point? You are wrong that it will not help the former. The latter is largley irrelevant as anything byt a disincentive to violate protocol, something your argument "former" implicitly assumes as one of its axioms. I will not buy your axiom, even if you phrase it this way. It is a bogus axiom. > Jim-Bob and John-Boy *don't* make changes to the tree simulateously. I > suppose if we had another couple hundred committers we might have this > problem, but we don't. > > CVS == Concurent Versions System > > It allows concurrent access to the tree my multiple-writers *BY DESIGN*. > > It's NOT BROKEN anywhere except in your mind. It *WON'T* fix any > problems that are of any significance in the FreeBSD build tree. It fixed them for the NetWare for UNIX source tree. This is historical fact. Are you arguing that history is not applicable to the current situation? What about the proposed test (which you deleted from your reply)? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 23:22:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA15183 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA15175; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080622.XAA15175@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:03:59 PDT." <199606080603.XAA05574@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:22:48 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> But we don't have a problem with checkin conflict. It's simply a >> non-problem. If it ain't broke, don't spend alot of time fixing it. >> >> How many times do I have to say this? > >Until -current builds with no errors that can't be traced to a policy >violation (and a specific violator) for a period of one month. Policy violoations != concurrent checkin conflicts. >If "committer #1" checks in changes to modules A, B, C, and Q, >and "committer #2" cheks in changes to modules X, Y, Z, and Q, >and there is a cumulative conflict, who is at fault if their >access was not serialized? > >Answer: the tools. This just doesn't happen in this project. The problem we have to deal with is maintaining a branch that has diverged to such an extent from the main line as to be difficult to maintain. Lets stay focused on the problem we face now instead of a problem we may never face. > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 7 23:26:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA15549 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (root@zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA15540; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from father.ludd.luth.se (father.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.18]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.2) with ESMTP id IAA18206; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:26:28 +0200 From: Tomas Klockar Received: (dateck@localhost) by father.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) id IAA17949; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:26:05 +0200 Message-Id: <199606080626.IAA17949@father.ludd.luth.se> Subject: Re: New "netscaped" FreeBSD web pages at http://www.freebsd.org/~mpcd To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:26:04 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, www@FreeBSD.ORG, mpcd@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606071803.LAA03559@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jun 7, 96 11:03:34 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Terry Lambert: > > These are the proposed "netscape enhanced" pages for those browsers > > (and comlinks) capable of dealing with a fancier view of things. The > > text mode interface isn't going away, folks, so don't all you lynx > > people get yourselves into a knot. This is just another way of > > looking at the FreeBSD home page for those users who go in for that > > sort of thing, and it'll either auto-select by browser or be chained > > off of http://www.freebsd.org through a "netscape enhanced!" button or > > something. We haven't worked that out yet. > > > > Pages courtesy of Visual Internet Publishing, who will of course get > > some free advertising out of this deal. :-) > > > > Feedback can and should be sent to Duffy Penski . > > These pages have a *much* higher production value than the onces > which are "Lynx-friendly"! > > Does Apache support server-side scripting? It seems that you could > do automatic browser capability detection, and generate pages on > the basis of capability from a common source/database. > > At worst, there should be a high/low/no graphics page as the initial > intercept, if browser capability based redirects can't work (ie: if > there is no server-side scripting). These things need to be the > default for most people connecting to the site! > > Good job on the pages! (what's the text input field with no buttons > or anything associated with it???). I think apache were based on NCSA httpd 1.3 and it supports serverside includes The only problem with apache were that it pretty often started forking up itself until the machine died. We are currently running NCSA 1.5 which is also free. This is of course an sun 4/390 and not on freebsd. Our deamon sends between 500MB and 1GB each day. We thought that it were the load that killed it. But if it's used by you than i can't belive that its the load. /Tomas -- Tomas Klockar can be found at the following adresses: Kårhusvägen 4, 2:43 | Furuvägen 102 | dateck@ludd.luth.se 977 54 Luleå | 871 52 Härnösand | dateck@solace.mh.se Tel: +46-920-229391 | Tel: +46-611-13393 | d94-tkl@sm.luth.se From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 00:04:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA20310 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA20303; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA21399; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080704.AAA21399@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1-960606-SNAP is out. To: stable@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <10392.834211333@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 7, 96 10:22:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I guess this is the julian birthday snap? (continuing on the tradition of birthday snaps..) > > > And the subject pretty much says it all... > > See: > ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1-960606-SNAP/RELNOTES.TXT > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 00:07:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA20630 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cedb.dpcsys.com (cedb.DPCSYS.COM [165.90.143.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA20620 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cedb (cedb.DPCSYS.COM [165.90.143.3]) by cedb.dpcsys.com (8.6.10/DPC-1.0) with SMTP id AAA08903; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:02 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Busarow X-Sender: dan@cedb To: David Greenman cc: Jean-Marc Frailong , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ISC dhcp, AF_UNSPEC & bpf bugs In-Reply-To: <199606080600.XAA12797@Root.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, David Greenman wrote: > >I am currently trying to port the ISC DHCP server to FreeBSD. In the > > [ ... ] > >1. When sending a packet via BPF, the ether type gets byte-swapped. > > This issue keeps coming up - I think it was the AppleTalk people the last > time. I personally could care less which way it is and don't have an opinion. Since user applications should _always_ use htons or nstoh (I don't believe anyone has ever disputed that), the libary and system calls should _always_ return network order. So system/system or system/library calls should _always_ expect to receive their natural byte order (network) and not use a user (application) level function (nstoh). What could possibly cause you to decide otherwise? Now, I can see where a specific application might have trouble deciding whether it was user level or not but bpf should not have any such confusion. Dan -- Dan Busarow 714 443 4172 DPC Systems Dana Point, California From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 00:20:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA22816 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from melb.werple.net.au (melb.werple.net.au [203.9.190.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22763 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cimaxp1.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by melb.werple.net.au (8.7.5/8.7.3/2) with UUCP id QAA00377 for mira!freebsd.org!hackers; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:19:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199606080619.QAA00377@melb.werple.net.au> Received: by cimaxp1.cimlogic.com.au; (5.65/1.1.8.2/10Sep95-0953AM) id AA32505; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:18:51 +1000 From: John Birrell Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: Root.COM!davidg@melb.werple.net.au Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:18:51 +1000 (EST) Cc: sri.MT.net!nate@melb.werple.net.au, time.cdrom.com!jkh@melb.werple.net.au, freebsd.org!hackers@melb.werple.net.au, freebsd.org!freebsd-stable@melb.werple.net.au, freebsd.org!FreeBSD-current@melb.werple.net.au In-Reply-To: <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> from "David Greenman" at Jun 7, 96 09:06:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've obviously been willing since I've been doing this for over a year now. > The problem is that I have no time to work on new development myself. New > development is the "fun" part of FreeBSD. I haven't had any FreeBSD "fun" for > more than a year now, and I'm quickly approaching the burnout point (actually, > I've already burnt out; I'm currently forcing myself to continue in this role > only because I feel obligated to get the release out). ... then -stable *should* go. Those people who think they need -stable, will just have to put up with the releases. And if that's not sufficient, then they can contribute the resources to put out minor releases (of patches?) between the major ones. I think it is unreasonable for people to expect new functionality (like the VM changes, for instance) to be provided by -stable at the expense of -current development and the next release. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > -- John Birrell CIMlogic Pty Ltd jb@cimlogic.com.au 119 Cecil Street Ph +61 3 9690 6900 South Melbourne Vic 3205 Fax +61 3 9690 6650 Australia Mob +61 18 353 137 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 00:51:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28608 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cedb.dpcsys.com (cedb.DPCSYS.COM [165.90.143.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA28600; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cedb (cedb.DPCSYS.COM [165.90.143.3]) by cedb.dpcsys.com (8.6.10/DPC-1.0) with SMTP id AAA08981; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:47:17 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:47:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Busarow X-Sender: dan@cedb To: Dave Edwards cc: freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Apana SA Technical Group Subject: Re: Interface problem In-Reply-To: <199606080018.JAA20140@katy.apana.org.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Dave Edwards wrote: > What would be the most important kernel config parameters that > may have a bearing here. From my reading, maxusers of 10 should > be ample, I've set it to 15 anyway. I am using the default > CHILD_MAX and OPEN_MAX settings. Why be so stingy. Bump MAXUSERS. From my (admittedly scanty) reading of the source, this is the most improtant parameter there is. I set ours to 64+ on anything that will be having more than casual use. It doesn't mean you expect that many users, it means you'll need that many resources and a lot of the system resources are defined in terms of it. Dan -- Dan Busarow 714 443 4172 DPC Systems Dana Point, California From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 01:25:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA07265 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA07088; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA13112; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:25:15 -0700 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199606080825.BAA13112@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606080540.WAA12681@Root.COM> from David Greenman at "Jun 7, 96 10:40:28 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one > >> that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. > > > >Do you have any suggestions? Would creating a new 'stable' tree today > >be even remotely acceptable? > > I think that's an interesting idea, but lets allow the issue to get a fair > airing (at least a week or two) before taking any steps in this direction. I have heard some mistatments, and incorrect assumptions about what -stable was/is, when it was created, and how it was _suppose_ to work. The above ``idea'' posted by Nate, is infact the _closest_ thing that has been said to what I had intended to occur when I set this up some 13 months ago. Here is a more accurate history, from the horses mouse so to speak since it was I who proposed this whole thing, and it was I how did the CVS work to create them. a) I merged RELENG_2_0_5 (a branch) into the HEAD, then pulled the RELENG_2_1_0 branch out so that work could begin on the next CDROM release at 2.1, which was suppose to take a month or so to do, it dragged, but did get done with a fairly small delta set (do a cvs rdiff -rRELENG_2_1_0_BP -rRELENG_2_1_0_RELEASE to see it). Mean while developement work was to (and has) continue on the HEAD branch. b) The RELENG_2_1_0 branch was to continue life as a _maintance_ / _bugfix_ branch known as -stable to support those users out there who needed this. It was _NEVER_ meant to last longer than 4 months (remember, back then everyone still wanted to see 2 to 4 releases a year.) It was _never_ meant to have a _SECOND_ full blown release rolled out of it, unless it was down within the 3 to 4 month window. c) It was the intention that some 3 months after 2.1 rolled out the door that the release engineering team for 2.2 _should_ be keeping an eye on HEAD to decide _when_ to pop down the RELENG_2_2_0_BP point tag, and start the RELENG_2_2_0 branch. [Never happened, and probably should have been what happened when Jordan attempted to do the MEGA merge of HEAD into RELENG_2_1_0.] d) After the release team had played with this new RELENG_2_2_0 branch for a week or so getting into a buildable state it would be rolled out in alpha form to start the alpha/beta/release testing. e) Once RELENG_2_2_0 was actually released (ie, RELENG_2_2_0_RELEASE had be applied as a tag) it would become the -stable bits. A flaw in my logic was that I called the mailing lists -stable, and the sup collections, etc that as well. I should have called it all branch-2.1, as now there is no easy way, except to have a ``flag day'', to replace the -stable sup/ctm collections on Freefall. > We really need to kill this thread: I had 800 emails in my inbox today, and > this is about twice the usual amount. I can't deal with this much email; I've > been sitting here for the past 5 hours reading it all and I'm getting really > sick of it. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 01:49:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13903 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.com (pegasus.com [140.174.243.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA13756; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pegasus.com (8.6.8/PEGASUS-2.2) id WAA09300; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:48:32 -1000 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:48:32 -1000 From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) Message-Id: <199606080848.WAA09300@pegasus.com> In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view)" (Jun 7, 7:40pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk } > Damn good idea. I think your 100% right. Gimme an address and ill send } > money. I think the old saying put up or shut up pretty much is the bottom } > line here. If we want -stable to continue we will have to take up the } } Make checks payable to FreeBSD, Inc. [...] } It would be cool if someone could add a `Contributor' message to the FreeBSD t-shirt and make it available to folks that donate, say $100 or more. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 01:58:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16194 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16167 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA05236; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:57:46 -0700 (PDT) To: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:48:32 -1000." <199606080848.WAA09300@pegasus.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 01:57:45 -0700 Message-ID: <5234.834224265@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It would be cool if someone could add a `Contributor' message to the > FreeBSD t-shirt and make it available to folks that donate, say $100 > or more. I think that could be arranged. Let's me go away and give all of this some thought, since it seems to be coming up again, and I'll announce whatever I come up with. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 01:58:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16297 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.aros.net (mailhub.aros.net [205.164.111.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16280 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.aros.net (terra.aros.net [205.164.111.10]) by mailhub.aros.net (8.7.5/Unknown) with ESMTP id DAA03287; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:34:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from angio@localhost) by terra.aros.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) id CAA31722; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:58:17 -0600 From: Dave Andersen Message-Id: <199606080858.CAA31722@terra.aros.net> Subject: Re: Testing DE driver To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:58:16 -0600 (MDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jun 8, 96 12:04:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You may wish to try tcpblast - it does basically what it sounds like. :-) It's in the packages collection in benchmarking/tcpblast-1.0.tgz. TCPblast is limited to 9999 blocks of 1024 bytes. So set it up in a loop: while 1 tcpblast destination 9999 end This _will_ work out your network interface, and even more, your network. If you can't afford to have a saturated network while you're doing this -- well, don't. :) The only problem about this is that it uses constant-sized blocks with identical content. You could also try running several concurrent ping -f's over the network with different pad bytes in each ping. Or, combine that with the tcpblast loop. :) -Dave Andersen Lo and behold, Michael Hancock once said: > > I'm testing Matt Thomas' experimental DE driver. Well sort of. What > would be a good way to stress test this driver? All I've done so far with > the driver was a few large sup sessions and running NetScape. > > Also, how do I check to see if there are any ipintrq drops? > > -mh > > On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Matt Thomas wrote: > > > > > I modified my new/normal if_de.c driver to do something > > quite different from most network drivers. > > > > This driver will defer processing of interrupts to a > > netisr routine. Actually the acknowledges an interrupt, > > and disables interrupts for the device, and waits for > > a software interrupt to acutally service the interrupt. > > > > Thus hardly any of the driver runs splimp and most runs > > at splnet. > > > > This also results in pratically no drops at the protocol > > layer (ie. ipintrq). With a small change to ether_input > > and ip_input, one could even bypass ipintrq and have > > much fairer input processing (reduce queueing delays and > > effects considerably). > > > > If you are in an environment where you are getting > > ipintrq drops with the de driver, I'd be very curious > > to see what results you get from this driver. > > > > Send me mail if you are interested... > > > > (Anything after 2.1.0-RELEASE should work fine included > > 2.2-current). > > > > -- > > Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com > > 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html > > Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message > > > > > > -- > michaelh@cet.co.jp http://www.cet.co.jp > CET Inc., Daiichi Kasuya BLDG 8F 2-5-12, Higashi Shinbashi, Minato-ku, > Tokyo 105 Japan Tel: +81-3-3437-1761 Fax: +81-3-3437-1766 > -- angio@aros.net Complete virtual hosting and business-oriented system administration Internet services. (WWW, FTP, email) http://www.aros.net/ http://www.aros.net/about/virtual "There are only two industries that refer to thier customers as 'users'." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 02:27:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA25140 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA25087; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA27176; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:33:53 +0300 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:33:52 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Stable Users , FreeBSD current users Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > doing a *ton* of work in both -stable and -current. However, it's a > > *LOT* of work. However, I don't think this has anything to do with CVS, > > but has to do with the diverging of the trees. P3 may make it easier to > > do as far as resources, but the actual work of 'merging' in changes to > > both won't be any easier. Building the patches is the hard work IMHO, > > I think you're forgetting the problem with cvs where: > > 1. You make a change in -release. > 2. You merge it into -stable. > 3. You make another change in -release. Sorry if I am misunderstanding something, but shouldn't the change have been made in -stable and not in -release? Sander > 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* > of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 02:29:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA26074 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA26052 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA05757; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:29:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Narvi cc: Nate Williams , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 12:33:52 +0300." Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 02:29:03 -0700 Message-ID: <5755.834226143@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sorry if I am misunderstanding something, but shouldn't the change have > been made in -stable and not in -release? No. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 02:46:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA01241 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA01183; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA27336; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:53:38 +0300 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:53:38 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I don't have a full-time engineer at present to devote to this, nor can > > I afford the single mistake that destroys our environment. I can put > > someone on this with a 4-10 hour per week commitment, but that's about it. > > .. > > Somehow, the -STABLE intent must remain. I don't care *how* it is > > accomplished, but it has to be accomplished. An example of the problems is > > Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more > resources to us. > > It's a pretty simple equation which would be solved in the commercial > world by us charging you more money. Since we're not in the > commercial world, then it stands to reason that if you or anyone else > wants feature or service "X", which we claim is beyond our resources, > then it's your task to ensure that we have the resources we need. > > Knowing your position of relative wealth (far more than any of ours), > why not hire a part-timer and "give" him to us? He can work with the > other full or part time programmers the other ISPs (or other > commercial interests) hire to make -stable everything you want it to > be. Everybody gets what they want then - we stop having our very > limited resources bifurcated, you get your -stable branch. > > Anyway, let's Just Do It or stop pounding shoes on the table talking > about how "-stable MUST NOT DIE!" and it's up to the current > developers to pull a rabbit out of their hats and somehow make it all > work. I'd be happy to talk to Karl (or anyone else) about co-managing > whatever human resources they can donate to the project. > > I should also note here that any other proposals which involve me or > anyone closely involved in -current development doing the work will be > politely deleted - I think I've already made my position more than > clear and I will not be budged on it. It's just too much work, > members of the core team have complained to me in private that -stable > was sucking the life force out of the project (or refused to > participate in -stable at all) and they wished we'd stop, this is not > a problem that suddenly appeared - it's been 15 months in the making > and now we need some additional man power if we're going to deal with > it in any more permanant fashion. > > As I said, I'd be more than happy to talk with the "vested interest" > folks in seeing how they personally might not take more responsibility > for the -stable service they've come to appreciate. Everyone always > talks about how they'd like to give something back, well, here's a > golden opportunity! Give me about 2 - 3 part-time employees and I'll > give you back a -stable that will make all of us very happy. > A great idea! But why does this all openly come out only now? At least part of the solution might be just saying - maintainers and mergerers for stable needed! Would more volunteer based development of -stable be realy that hard? 1) If you want to get a given feature in -current, what do you do? You ask if somebody is working on it, join in if somebody is and do it yourself if it isn't. 2) Couldn't maintaining of stable look like: a) The core team suggest that it would be nice if somebody would bring feature x over to -stable. b) Person y responds - I'll look into that (and most probably some more persons join him) c) While tracking -stable, y ports featrure x over to stable and make sure it does not affect it's stability d) when ready, he makes the diffs available and people test them out (NB! it is not commite yet) e) Concensus says - it's stable. Now is the point the thing shall be (if it hasn't already) be taken into close consideration by a core-team member, who will in some time commit it. 3) If enough changes are not brought over quickly enough, the core-team takes -current from some point of time, renames it to -semi-stable and put's it in for the stablity testing for being renamed to -stable Any big troubles with that scheme? (Yes, I really love -stable) Sander > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 02:59:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA05839 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA05697 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA27461; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:05:54 +0300 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:05:53 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <5755.834226143@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Sorry if I am misunderstanding something, but shouldn't the change have > > been made in -stable and not in -release? > > No. Hmm... Maybe I'm missing something, but in case you change in -release instead of -stable, wouldn't it be possible that some change made before that changed something so that the bug just moved to another place? Or that the new change against -release will cause a bug in the last change to -stable? Or have I gone into a deep marsh and am missing everything? Sander > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 03:30:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA14322 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA14250 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id MAA01820; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:29:08 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id MAA28282; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:29:07 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA10847; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:02:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606080702.JAA10847@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Automatic configuration script (fwd) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:02:31 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jehamby@lightside.com (Jake Hamby) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Jake Hamby at "Jun 6, 96 07:01:22 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jake Hamby wrote: > Saw this on the NetBSD list, haven't had time to check it out. Does > anyone else think this would be a great idea for FreeBSD? > I have made a configuration script that makes a config file for > kernelbuilding by looking at dmesg output (and ifconfig -a and > machine) and would like to hear if it makes sense. Hmm, i think this is basically not much more than dset(8) does for us (and thus, you could even use the same technology as dset to implement it). But perhaps this combined into a nifty tool that lets you interactively select which drivers to use (thereby also reading the LINT file to offer new drivers or features) might be interesting. I don't think i will ever use something else than vi or emacs to generate a config file, but first-time users might be better off with a tool that does some hand-holding. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 03:30:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA14522 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA14476 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id MAA01893; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:29:49 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id MAA28310; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:29:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id MAA12643; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:23:44 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606081023.MAA12643@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Help: Kernel panic ... To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:23:43 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: ck@toplink.net (Christian Kratzer) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606060849.KAA18660@toplink1.toplink.net> from Christian Kratzer at "Jun 6, 96 10:49:14 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christian Kratzer wrote: > Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode > fault virtual address = 0x0 > fault code = supervisor write, page not present > instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf01a389e Do an: nm /kernel | sort | more and look for the area around 0xf01a389e. This points you to the function the page fault happened. Of course, there's still a chance that it's a hardware problem as well. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 04:15:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA25376 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA25346; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA08772; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606081115.EAA08772@kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org Subject: Using two NCR 53C825 controllers blows up? Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:15:24 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In a Pent-133 I am trying to install with two of these NCR controllers in it, there are two disks per controller. When I boot off the floppy, the disks are numbered one way (sd0 thru sd3). Install proceeds happily. Wben I boot off the installed operating system, the controller cards suddenly switch roles, causing sd0 to become sd2, and causing a panic("cannot mount root");. Now I know this is something stupid. It's either me, or the driver. What am I doing wrong? What is it doing wrong? ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet The king arrived at the resturant where Nasrudin had been left in charge. The king ordered an omelette. After his meal, when he saw the check he raised his eyebrows. "Eggs must be very costly here. Are they as scarce as that?" "It is not the eggs, your majesty...it is the visits of kings." From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 04:31:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA29178 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NS.Contrib.Com (NS.Contrib.Com [194.77.12.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA29125; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from src@localhost) by NS.Contrib.Com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA27899; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:30:01 +0200 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:30:01 +0200 From: Heiko Blume Message-Id: <199606081130.NAA27899@NS.Contrib.Com> To: terry@lambert.org CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <199606072342.QAA04537@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:54 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk helloo i'd like to mention that we have implemented CVS for a big software development effort with more than 100 developers at several sites and VERY many lines of code. it works very well. however, things had to planned very carefully. my partner sascha@contrib.com has done this, so maybe the ones of you working with CVS the most should poke him a little. rgds hb From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 08:24:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01306 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01222; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id AAA18598; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 00:23:01 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 00:23:01 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606080407.WAA02519@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > > ^^^^^^ > > > > I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while > > commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap > > effective way to do this. > > They wouldn't enforce or even help the policy. Multiple reader/single > writer locks don't solve any significant problem we've faced. Why do > something that limits the ability of developers to commit changes when > the problem the fix happens .001% of the time? So what's the commit protocol now, e-mail? This sounds more limiting on a developer's schedule no matter how many committers there are. I assume there are more than two and they would probably rather focus on writing code than coordinating commits manually. > It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% > faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU > time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. I'm not convinced this analogy holds. With all the problems I saw over the last 2 weeks it sure seemed like more than a slip of commit discipline. -mike hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 11:19:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25054 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25039; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA02548; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:19:15 -0400 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:19:15 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606081819.AA02548@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > 1. You make a change in -release. > 2. You merge it into -stable. > 3. You make another change in -release. > 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* > of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! The problem is that you need to carefully specify BOTH merge points. If you are just saying `cvs update -j HEAD foo.c', then yes, of course you are going to lose. This process works: 1. You make a change on the head. It gets rev 1.42. 2. You merge it into the branch with `cvs update -j1.41 -j1.42'. 3. You make another change on the head. It gets rev 1.43. 4. You merge it into the branch with `cvs update -j1.42 -j1.43'. Your conflicts arise because you are not correctly specifying the beginning point of the merge, and so the three-way merge program attempts to re-add the changes between 1.41 and 1.42 in addition to the changes between 1.42 and 1.43, and the conflicts arise because of the unexpected presence of those 1.42 changes in the branch version. If the changes from 1.42 and 1.43 do not themselves overlap, then the merger /ought/ to be able to deal with this (just as it does when you do a `cvs update' and the working file already contains the changes that it wants to apply from the tree). When the changes overlap, then it's impossible for the merger to tell what's going on without some external help (which is what most commercial version-management tools provide). Notice that this implies that attempting to do wholesale merges of branches is a non-starter in CVS. It /has/ to be done incrementally in order to work. Moreover, the model that CVS was really designed for is more like this: 1. You create a branch. 2. You do lots of development work on the branch. 3. You complete the development work on the branch. 4. You merge the entire branch into the head and forget about it. This works also, although it is a bit slower than it might be becaus of the way RCS represents branches. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 11:21:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25417 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.free-gate.com (www.free-gate.com [205.178.11.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25410 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked from smtpd); 8 Jun 1996 18:21:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (192.168.1.100) by 192.168.1.1 with SMTP; 8 Jun 1996 18:21:31 -0000 From: jmf@free-gate.com (Jean-Marc Frailong) To: Dan Busarow Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ISC dhcp, AF_UNSPEC & bpf bugs Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 18:18:46 GMT Organization: FreeGate Corp. Message-ID: <31b9afb4.953215476@192.168.1.1> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, David Greenman wrote: >Since user applications should _always_ use htons or nstoh (I don't believe >anyone has ever disputed that), the libary and system calls should _always_ >return network order. > >So system/system or system/library calls should _always_ expect to receive >their natural byte order (network) and not use a user (application) level >function (nstoh). Yes, the problem is not really what is done inside the kernel (this is a taste issue), but what is visible to applications. In this respect, the current BPF behaviour is broken since all network apps expect strict network byte order. This can be fixed in bpf.c only, by adding a byte swap for the Ethernet case in bpf_movein. This fix breaks a minimal number of applications. AFAIK, in 2.1R, the only users of bpf writes are rarpd and rbootd, with one-liner fixes. Changing the kernel semantics for AF_UNSPEC is more tricky, and I am not confident of having stepped through all the implications. Also, there may be more changes for -current due to IPX & ATALK support. What is the right way to proceed on this ? I am new to the FreeBSD scene, and would appreciate some info on the 'proper procedure' :-) In parallel, I'll send a message to the ISC DHCP list mentionning the application-level workaround for FreeBSD. Jean-Marc Frailong jmf@free-gate.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 13:41:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15790 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA15751; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA19365; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606082037.NAA19365@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Dave Hayes cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Using two NCR 53C825 controllers blows up? In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 08 Jun 96 04:15:24 -0700. <199606081115.EAA08772@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 13:37:18 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >In a Pent-133 I am trying to install with two of these NCR >controllers in it, there are two disks per controller. > >When I boot off the floppy, the disks are numbered one way >(sd0 thru sd3). Install proceeds happily. > >Wben I boot off the installed operating system, the controller >cards suddenly switch roles, causing sd0 to become sd2, and >causing a panic("cannot mount root");. What kind of machine is this? I know that Dell, for example, really screwed this up. You could get similar bad behavior under Windows NT (add a new disk on the external controller, which DOS recognizes as D:; reboot into Windows NT and all of a sudden the new disk is C:, and your old C: drive is now D:). The problem there was that the second controller piggy-backed onto the first, and the Dell BIOS artificially made the second controller drives probe after the first controller's. However, the "second" card was actually installed with a lower address or IRQ or something. The only thing that made it come "after" the first was because it was hacked into the BIOS that way. After bootstrapping, NT doesn't use the BIOS anymore, and so would make the "second" controller into the first controller under NT, and the "first" controller would become the second. The drives on the controllers, of course, would then follow the new order. Very very annoying. You might be seeing something similar. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 13:53:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17197 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17184; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606082053.NAA17184@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Garrett Wollman cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 14:19:15 EDT." <9606081819.AA02548@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 13:53:19 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Notice that this implies that attempting to do wholesale merges of >branches is a non-starter in CVS. It /has/ to be done incrementally >in order to work. Moreover, the model that CVS was really designed >for is more like this: It looks like you can also specify dates for -j, so it *may* be possible to do this by date. >-GAWollman > >-- >Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... >wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. >Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like peopl >e >MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 14:13:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA19501 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA19469; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA05873; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:11:39 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma005869; Sat Jun 8 21:11:15 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19115; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:11:14 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:11:14 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199606082111.OAA19115@meerkat.mole.org> To: terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Inre: function of -stable > > 1) we acknowled the function of -stable to be as an intermediate > tree, between -release and -current Maybe. Maybe not. Depends upon 4, below. > 2) we posit that the relationship -stable bears to -release vs. > that it bears to -current is generally acknowledged to be > indeterminate at this time, with cause cited as there being > a dichotomy in administrative policy applied to -stable that > has not been resolved Yep. > 3) we posit that the relationship goals for -current and -release > are conflicting, and that this is the source of the policy > dichotomy What? > 4) we conclude that the function of -stable needs to be defined, > since it is meeting neiter relationship criteria to the > general satisfaction of the parties involved Empahtic YEP. > 5) we note that one potential resoloution would be to eliminate > the implied -stable/-current relationship entirely (as has > been proposed by others) in favor of causing -current itself > to fulfill that role by meeting the -stable buildability > criteria, assuming the previously referenced problems are > resolved first > I suggest that it's not only the buildability of stable, but the crashlessness and bugfixedness of stable that's important. There is a real place for a bugfixed incarnation of the previous release. Curent may build fine, but if it crashes or bumps, it doesn't make it as a stable system. As it should be. This is not just a FreeBSD problem. I haven't seen a single commercial vendor that manages to provide a solution to this problem that is worth a hill of warm horse manure. -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 14:59:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24559 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24544 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA08455; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:53:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606082153.OAA08455@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: mrm@Mole.ORG (M.R.Murphy) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:53:17 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606082111.OAA19115@meerkat.mole.org> from "M.R.Murphy" at Jun 8, 96 02:11:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ ... list trimmed to -hackers only ... ] > > 3) we posit that the relationship goals for -current and -release > > are conflicting, and that this is the source of the policy > > dichotomy > > What? That -stable can't bear the same relationship to both -current and -release at the same time. > Curent may build fine, but if it crashes or bumps, it doesn't make > it as a stable system. As it should be. The grossest measure of stability is the ability to actually build the thing. Things which do not build run expotentially less often than things which build, but which are flawed. The problem is that you're assuming, in the question, that -stable is defined as -release plus selected fixes. This is a fine definition, but it ignores: a) fixed are generally not modular little component plug-ins which can substituted at whim. Source and header file changes, at the least, are complexly connected. b) When defined this way, -stable is acknowledged to be "throw away code". You can't have your cake, and eat it too. Either it is a stabilized -current, or it is a more stabilized release... the goals are contradictory. > This is not just a FreeBSD problem. I haven't seen a single commercial > vendor that manages to provide a solution to this problem that is worth > a hill of warm horse manure. It requires electing an asshole. Specifically, someone willing to be an asshole if someone breaks the source tree, until the source tree is fixed. You break the source tree, the asshole lives in your mailbox until it is fixed. Novell used CVS for the 6+ million lines of code for the NWU project, in a single source tree, with more than 40 developers actively stepping on the tree, using reader-writer locks. This was a source tree which included protocol modules, router modules, system call sets, context sharing extensions, and file system components -- not to mention the large amount of user space code. Unlike the FreeBSD source tree, it was not broken up into multiple source collections. The developement process was highly successful. I freely admit that there was the sword of money hanging over the engineers on the project, but even in excess of 100 man-years of stomping, the projects was buildable on Solaris, SunOS, AIX, and UnixWare, on a nightly basis, except for pre-specified lock-downs for code cutting, in all but 6 occasions over the lifetime of the project. This is with 40 people spending 8 hours a day stomping the source tree (via NFS, no less). The one ammendement to the locking protocol is the ability to force idle locks out of the tree (which could of just as easily been handled by inactivity timers, but we wanted to be able to flag a lockdown for release, with only the release engineer making changes to the overall tree -- he owned the lock). I think that you'd be right in stating that it's *rare* to find a commercial vendor capable of mounting a project in this fashion, and to my knowledge, the majority of the group was broken up later, but it's *not* unheard of. And there's no damn reason to accept the status quo just because it is the status quo. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 15:26:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA27878 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27832; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA20059; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606082222.PAA20059@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 07 Jun 96 19:58:31 -0700. <16211.834202711@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 15:22:34 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> For the benefit of the aged, like myself, perhaps you could >> change the name. 8-) >Or, for the benefit of those who are poor of eyesight, like yourself, >we should simply send out these mailings in larger type. :-) Please don't! I have too much disk space allocated to mail, already, with the current type size... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 15:42:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00301 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00278 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA06355; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:41:08 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma006353; Sat Jun 8 22:40:58 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA19347; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:40:58 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:40:58 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199606082240.PAA19347@meerkat.mole.org> To: mrm@mole.Mole.ORG, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > [ ... list trimmed to -hackers only ... ] > > > > 3) we posit that the relationship goals for -current and -release > > > are conflicting, and that this is the source of the policy > > > dichotomy > > > > What? > > That -stable can't bear the same relationship to both -current and > -release at the same time. Ahh. I _strongly_ agree. > > > Curent may build fine, but if it crashes or bumps, it doesn't make > > it as a stable system. As it should be. > > The grossest measure of stability is the ability to actually build > the thing. Things which do not build run expotentially less often > than things which build, but which are flawed. I agree that it's a gross measure. It's that only, though. > > The problem is that you're assuming, in the question, that -stable is > defined as -release plus selected fixes. I'd like to define it that way. I may easily be wrong, though. Whatever is defined, however, I think that a manageable set of bugfixes to a baseline release is a _good thing_. I think that's what a lot of folk would like. WRT a -current that builds, let that be my problem. If I don't save away -current when it builds, shame on me. (same for the present -stable, and in fact, shame on me, I got sloppy and didn't save the last one that built. Cost me work with ctm, but was I ever glad that it was available. Thanks rkw and others.) > > This is a fine definition, but it ignores: I thought it was a fine one meself. > > a) fixed are generally not modular little component plug-ins > which can substituted at whim. Source and header file > changes, at the least, are complexly connected. Yeah. It takes discipline to fix a release when the fun of the bleeding edge beckons. Kind of like embedding a really desireable patch in a much larger set of patches might drive some folks to distraction ;-) Cheap shot. I withdraw it. Don't shoot back. It's even more fun to take somebody's fix, extract the part that is suitable for a bugfix release, integrate, test, QC, ... not fun, I lied. Satisfying, though. > > b) When defined this way, -stable is acknowledged to be > "throw away code". You can't have your cake, and eat > it too. Either it is a stabilized -current, or it is a > more stabilized release... the goals are contradictory. Exactly, it is throw-away code, or "save it for history" code for pack rats. If it's a bugfixed of the current release, then that's what it is, no more, and no less. It is useful, though, while it has life. > > > > This is not just a FreeBSD problem. I haven't seen a single commercial > > vendor that manages to provide a solution to this problem that is worth > > a hill of warm horse manure. > > It requires electing an asshole. Or assholes, plural. And they don't even have to be elected. > > Specifically, someone willing to be an asshole if someone breaks the > source tree, until the source tree is fixed. You break the source > tree, the asshole lives in your mailbox until it is fixed. Even worse than that. Peer pressure. > > > Novell used CVS for the 6+ million lines of code for the NWU project, > in a single source tree, with more than 40 developers actively > stepping on the tree, using reader-writer locks. This was a source > tree which included protocol modules, router modules, system call > sets, context sharing extensions, and file system components -- not > to mention the large amount of user space code. Unlike the FreeBSD > source tree, it was not broken up into multiple source collections. > > The developement process was highly successful. I freely admit that > there was the sword of money hanging over the engineers on the project, > but even in excess of 100 man-years of stomping, the projects was > buildable on Solaris, SunOS, AIX, and UnixWare, on a nightly basis, > except for pre-specified lock-downs for code cutting, in all but 6 > occasions over the lifetime of the project. Money talks, doesn't it? :-) > > This is with 40 people spending 8 hours a day stomping the source > tree (via NFS, no less). > > The one ammendement to the locking protocol is the ability to force > idle locks out of the tree (which could of just as easily been > handled by inactivity timers, but we wanted to be able to flag a > lockdown for release, with only the release engineer making changes > to the overall tree -- he owned the lock). Done as many companies do it. And I don't know of a much better way. However, how much does any of this kind of software engineering help the end user who says to herself, "My system isn't working right. Do I have the right patches for it? Are the latest the right? Where are the patches anyways? Aieeeee, somebody wants me to install mega-patches and mini-patches and they conflict and the hell with it I'm going to go home and have a drink." DEC, HP, IBM, SGI, SUN, they all make life miserable with respect to updates, manditory and optional. Did I mention Microsoft? Or what I've done? Or how many other companies that do a similar job? I suggest that a -stable entity that acts as a bugfixed current release would be a good thing. A simple log of the fixes would be helpful, too, without having to use CVS. > > > I think that you'd be right in stating that it's *rare* to find a > commercial vendor capable of mounting a project in this fashion, > and to my knowledge, the majority of the group was broken up later, > but it's *not* unheard of. And there's no damn reason to accept > the status quo just because it is the status quo. > Agreed. I'd also suggest that it be kept simple. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > For this one I need the disclaimer, too. Nuts. My opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. Obviously. -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 16:13:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04272 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04215; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01671; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:09:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Garrett Wollman cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 14:19:15 EDT." <9606081819.AA02548@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:09:00 -0700 Message-ID: <1668.834275340@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1. You make a change on the head. It gets rev 1.42. > 2. You merge it into the branch with `cvs update -j1.41 -j1.42'. > 3. You make another change on the head. It gets rev 1.43. > 4. You merge it into the branch with `cvs update -j1.42 -j1.43'. Yes, this is essentially how I do it now (well, I tend to batch the merges so it's not just one version being brought over at a time), I'm just saying that I shouldn't *have* to remember what changed when - I want an SCM tool which supports the concept of repeated merges, plain and simple, and does this kind of grunt-work *for* me. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 16:27:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA05747 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05714; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15662; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606082327.QAA15662@kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Using two NCR 53C825 controllers blows up? Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:27:01 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" writes: >What kind of machine is this? Oops, sorry. It's not a name brand per se. It is an "Intel Advanced ZP" motherboard. AMI Bios, and I don't have the revision handy. >However, the "second" card was actually installed with a lower address >or IRQ or something. The only thing that made it come "after" the >first was because it was hacked into the BIOS that way. After >bootstrapping, NT doesn't use the BIOS anymore, and so would make the >"second" controller into the first controller under NT, and the >"first" controller would become the second. The drives on the >controllers, of course, would then follow the new order. Very very >annoying. That's real swell, now how do I find out whether it's doing that? These NCR cards have jumpers to switch between INT A/B/C/D, but I don't think PCI interrupts are as simple as ISA ones. Do I hafta play with the jumpers? ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet Sometimes what a person escapes to is worse than what they escapes from. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 17:25:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA11978 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.neosoft.com (mailbox.neosoft.com [206.109.1.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA11796 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com (root@bonkers.neosoft.com [206.109.2.48]) by mailbox.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA03728 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:24:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA23087; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:22:58 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:22:58 -0500 From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <199606090022.TAA23087@bonkers.taronga.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A stuffed Daemon plushie (Chuck), anyone? Newsgroups: taronga.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: <4372.831644970@time.cdrom.com> Organization: none Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I thought his name was "phred". Shouldn't this be sent to the announce group? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 17:42:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13953 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.64.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13930; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA05953; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606090042.RAA05953@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org CC: dave@kachina.jetcafe.org, freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199606061535.IAA09473@freefall.freebsd.org> (gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org) Subject: Re: Adaptec 2940UW problems From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * I can stick it under an "if(bootverbose)" if it will make you happy. * If the device is a narrow device, its normal. If not, its not. Actually, I kinda miss the "16-bit transfer" message that used to be printed out for wide drives. Some Adaptec cards seem to be shipped with "initiate wide negotiation" set to off (then why is it the "factory default???") and it helped us catch those when we were swapping cards in and out. ("Hmm, how come we're only getting 9MB/s from the second bus???") Maybe we can revert the logic back to the old days, then nobody will complain. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 21:02:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA10802 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (critter.cdrom.com [204.216.27.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA10790 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA04295 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:16:55 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: bit 7 in filenames Reply-to: phk@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 09:16:55 -0700 Message-ID: <4293.834250615@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk SYMLINK(2) FreeBSD Programmer's Manual SYMLINK(2) NAME symlink - make symbolic link to a file SYNOPSIS #include int symlink(const char *name1, const char *name2) ERRORS The symbolic link succeeds unless: [ENOTDIR] A component of the name2 prefix is not a directory. [EINVAL] Either name1 or name2 contains a character with the high-order bit set. HUH ???? Actually there should be an error return, if I try to make a filename that is illegal for the filesystem. For instance create("/msdosfs/foo:bar") is an invalid name... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 21:18:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA13140 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lynx.its.unimelb.edu.au (lynx.its.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.20.151]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA13130 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by lynx.its.unimelb.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA09964; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 14:18:24 +1000 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 14:18:24 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Adaptec 2940 pci card Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Could someone please confirm that the Adaptec 2940 pci SCSI controller is supported by the ahc device listed in the ISA section of /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/LINT Thanks, Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 22:51:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA23512 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA23489; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA26171; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 15:48:18 +1000 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 15:48:18 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606090548.PAA26171@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hackers@freebsd.org, phk@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bit 7 in filenames Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The symbolic link succeeds unless: > [ENOTDIR] > A component of the name2 prefix is not a directory. > [EINVAL] Either name1 or name2 contains a character with the high-order > bit set. >HUH ???? This anachronism is in most of the man pages for system calls that involve path names. >Actually there should be an error return, if I try to make a filename >that is illegal for the filesystem. >For instance > create("/msdosfs/foo:bar") >is an invalid name... It's not invalid for msdosfs :-). :-(. Neither is creat("/msdosfs/a2345678: this is a very long not to mention invalid msdos path.name", 0666). falsely advertises that _POSIX_NO_TRUNC is 1 (no-trunc for _all_ supported file systems) and man pages misspell pathconf("/mountpoint", _PC_NAME_MAX) as 255. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 23:21:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA27569 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA27545 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA09730; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 08:20:43 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA08326; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 08:20:42 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA04398; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 08:15:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606090615.IAA04398@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Adaptec 2940 pci card To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 08:15:56 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: danny@lynx.its.unimelb.edu.au (Daniel O'Callaghan) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Daniel O'Callaghan at "Jun 9, 96 02:18:24 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: > > Could someone please confirm that the Adaptec 2940 pci SCSI controller is > supported by the ahc device listed in the ISA section of > /usr/src/sys/i386/conf/LINT ``confirm'' # The `ahc' device provides support for the Adaptec 29/3940(U)(W) # and motherboard based AIC7870/AIC7880 adapters. (It's not in the ISA section, btw., it's in the PCI section.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 8 23:51:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA05029 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04969 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA10241 for ; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 08:50:31 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA08452 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 08:50:31 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA04585 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 08:36:06 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606090636.IAA04585@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: bit 7 in filenames To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 08:36:06 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606090548.PAA26171@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Jun 9, 96 03:48:18 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > falsely advertises that _POSIX_NO_TRUNC is 1 (no-trunc for > _all_ supported file systems) and man pages misspell > pathconf("/mountpoint", _PC_NAME_MAX) as 255. msdosfs can hardly count as a ``supported file system''. >:-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)