From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 01:02:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA05674 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA05668 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ucon6-000QefC; Sun, 7 Jul 96 10:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA15222; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:42:36 +0200 Message-Id: <199607070742.JAA15222@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: gcc lies? To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:42:36 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jul 6, 96 11:18:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Hancock writes: > > This is probably why BSDI uses gcc 1.x for the kernel and gives their > screaming customers 2.7.2. Hey, you're right, even BSD/OS 2.1 still uses gcc 1.42. You'd think they would have got their act together by now. But I remember the background: there was something to do with kernel structures being aligned differently under gcc 2.x. You'd think they would have it fixed by now, though. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 01:02:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA05691 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA05675; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ucon7-000QehC; Sun, 7 Jul 96 10:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA15204; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:40:10 +0200 Message-Id: <199607070740.JAA15204@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: gcc lies? To: gpalmer@freebsd.org (Gary Palmer) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:40:10 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <20829.836638114@palmer.demon.co.uk> from "Gary Palmer" at Jul 6, 96 08:28:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Palmer writes: > > Greg Lehey wrote in message ID > <199607051011.MAA15302@allegro.lemis.de>: >> ../../kern/kern_descrip.c: In function `getdtablesize': >> ../../kern/kern_descrip.c:99: warning: unused parameter `uap' >> ../../kern/kern_descrip.c: In function `dup2': >> ../../kern/kern_descrip.c:127: warning: comparison between signed and unsigned > >> (that's not all, but it's enough). > >> If I compile the same module with the standard release gcc, I get no >> warnings at all. How come? At first I thought it might be the header >> files, but there's a -nostdinc in there, and I checked: it really does >> include just the kernel header files. > > No, it's not GCC lies, the tightened up quite a bit on their parser > and the error checking is a lot more thorough as a result. The end > product: LINT has gone from about 100 warnings up to 4000. I'm going > to be looking to kill a few of these once 2.1.5 is out and I have > time. My apologies, you're right.. I thought the port of gcc to FreeBSD had broken the warnings, but I compiled the original 2.6.3, and there were no warnings from it either. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 01:31:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA06814 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA06808 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA00607; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607070830.BAA00607@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock), hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Subject: Re: gcc lies? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Jul 1996 09:42:36 +0200." <199607070742.JAA15222@allegro.lemis.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:30:51 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dumb question , is gcc-1.42 a lot faster than gcc-2.x? Tnks, Amancio >From The Desk Of Greg Lehey : > Michael Hancock writes: > > > > This is probably why BSDI uses gcc 1.x for the kernel and gives their > > screaming customers 2.7.2. > > Hey, you're right, even BSD/OS 2.1 still uses gcc 1.42. You'd think > they would have got their act together by now. But I remember the > background: there was something to do with kernel structures being > aligned differently under gcc 2.x. You'd think they would have it > fixed by now, though. > > Greg > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 01:48:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA07510 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA07505 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id IAA06189; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 08:48:07 GMT Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:48:07 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Amancio Hasty cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: gcc lies? In-Reply-To: <199607070830.BAA00607@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It's was probably done more for compilability and stability. I just got word that they've been using gcc 2 for a couple of months now. -mike On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Dumb question , is gcc-1.42 a lot faster than gcc-2.x? > > Tnks, > Amancio > > >From The Desk Of Greg Lehey : > > Michael Hancock writes: > > > > > > This is probably why BSDI uses gcc 1.x for the kernel and gives their > > > screaming customers 2.7.2. > > > > Hey, you're right, even BSD/OS 2.1 still uses gcc 1.42. You'd think > > they would have got their act together by now. But I remember the > > background: there was something to do with kernel structures being > > aligned differently under gcc 2.x. You'd think they would have it > > fixed by now, though. > > > > Greg > > > > -- michaelh@cet.co.jp http://www.cet.co.jp CET Inc., Daiichi Kasuya BLDG 8F 2-5-12, Higashi Shinbashi, Minato-ku, Tokyo 105 Japan Tel: +81-3-3437-1761 Fax: +81-3-3437-1766 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 02:09:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA08716 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 02:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA08704 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 02:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0ucpqL-000QeeC; Sun, 7 Jul 96 11:09 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA15494; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:59:22 +0200 Message-Id: <199607070859.KAA15494@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: gcc lies? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:59:21 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <199607070830.BAA00607@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Jul 7, 96 01:30:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty writes: > > Dumb question , is gcc-1.42 a lot faster than gcc-2.x? Good question. The answer is 'yes', at least to go by what I've just tried. I compiled cccp.c (the GNU preprocessor) with both compilers on a P133 with BSD/OS 2.1. cc (1.42) took about 5.4 seconds, gcc (2.7.2) took about 14 seconds. I think Michael's right, though. It's more a question of compatibility than anything else. Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 02:41:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA11233 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 02:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA11228 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 02:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA01347; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 02:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607070941.CAA01347@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Subject: Re: gcc lies? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Jul 1996 10:59:21 +0200." <199607070859.KAA15494@allegro.lemis.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 02:41:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmmm... 5.4 vs 14 seconds -- sounds to me like a good reason to use gcc-1.42. I can see using gcc-1.42 for doing development once you get past the stage of *gross* bugs for the final compilation phase switch over to gcc-2.xxx. Tnks! Amancio >From The Desk Of Greg Lehey : > Amancio Hasty writes: > > > > Dumb question , is gcc-1.42 a lot faster than gcc-2.x? > > Good question. The answer is 'yes', at least to go by what I've just > tried. I compiled cccp.c (the GNU preprocessor) with both compilers > on a P133 with BSD/OS 2.1. cc (1.42) took about 5.4 seconds, gcc > (2.7.2) took about 14 seconds. > > I think Michael's right, though. It's more a question of > compatibility than anything else. > > Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 02:42:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA11293 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 02:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.Chemie.FU-Berlin.DE [160.45.24.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA11284 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 02:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Sun, 7 Jul 96 11:42 MEST Received: from wavehh.UUCP by mail.hanse.de with UUCP for FreeBSD-Hackers@freebsd.org id ; Sun, 7 Jul 96 11:42 MET DST Received: by wavehh.hanse.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13089; Sun, 7 Jul 96 09:41:57 +0200 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 96 09:41:57 +0200 From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Message-Id: <9607070741.AA13089@wavehh.hanse.de> To: FreeBSD-Hackers@freebsd.org Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.COM (Amancio Hasty) Subject: Re: thread support in gdb for -current?? Newsgroups: hanse-ml.freebsd.hackers References: <199607051933.MAA00445@rah.star-gate.com> Reply-To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hasty@rah.star-gate.COM (Amancio Hasty) wrote: >Now that we have thread support in -current it will be very nice if >someone could add thread support in gdb. The latest version of gdb >has thread support for Irix and Linx so at the very least the current >thread support in gdb serves as an example. See http://www.eecs.ukans.edu/~halbhavi/debugger.html for someone who is working on gdb to support pthreads. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer Where do you want to go today? Hard to tell running your calendar on a junk OS, eh? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 05:32:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA28368 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 05:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA28262 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 05:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA22327; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:31:02 +1000 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:31:02 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607071231.WAA22327@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: grog@lemis.de, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: gcc lies? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Dumb question , is gcc-1.42 a lot faster than gcc-2.x? >Good question. The answer is 'yes', at least to go by what I've just >tried. I compiled cccp.c (the GNU preprocessor) with both compilers >on a P133 with BSD/OS 2.1. cc (1.42) took about 5.4 seconds, gcc >(2.7.2) took about 14 seconds. gcc seems to be particularly slow at compiling cccp.c. Here it takes 16 seconds on a P133. It takes only 2.34 seconds with my compiler (It doesn't actually compile with my compiler, because of non-C (long long) in the standard headers). The difference for compiling with -S (and fixed headers) is much larger: bcc -S: 0.76 real 0.67 user 0.08 sys cc -S: 7.16 real 6.96 user 0.18 sys cc -O2 -S: 14.94 real 14.73 user 0.11 sys Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 08:01:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA27515 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 08:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA27480 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 08:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id ad22369; 7 Jul 96 16:00 +0100 Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa10040; 7 Jul 96 15:47 +0100 Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA00837; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:08:22 GMT Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:08:22 GMT Message-Id: <199607070908.JAA00837@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu CC: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607061722.NAA10798@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> (message from Bill Paul on Sat, 6 Jul 1996 13:22:32 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: gdb and dynamic symbol information Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A while ago I discovered that gdb for the SunOS 4.1.x, Solaris 2.x > (SPARC and x86, probably PPC too), IRIX 5.x targets can read dynamic > symbol information from stripped binaries. (There may be other targets > where this is possible; these are just the ones I know off the top of my > head.) This is to say that if you have a dynamically linked binary that > has been stripped, you can still run gdb on it and accomplish a fair > amount of useful things. This is true even if the executable has _not_ > been compiled with -g. This is especially useful when trying to track > down problems with vendor software for which source is not available. > (Ever binary-edit an executable to toggle on a hidden debug flag? :) There's a program called 'unstrip' that does the same kind of thing and is probably easier to follow than poking around in the innermost depths of gdb. I had a look at porting it a while back but didn't really know enough about SunOS's executable format (or, to tell the truth, FreeBSD's). -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 10:02:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21234 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21228 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA08248; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 09:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607071657.JAA08248@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Amancio Hasty Cc: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey), michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock), hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Subject: Re: gcc lies? Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 09:57:00 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:30:51 -0700 Amancio Hasty wrote: > Dumb question , is gcc-1.42 a lot faster than gcc-2.x? gcc 1.x compiles things faster. gcc 2.x produces better code. Some people think there's a trade-off to be made there... -- save the ancient forests - http://www.bayarea.net/~thorpej/forest/ -- Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 10:06:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21665 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21652 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA14680; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 13:05:26 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 13:05:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Tom Bartol cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shared Memory Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk actually, you're not really running out of shared memory. You're running out of sysv shared memory, which is barely a qualifier for the name 'shared memory' :=) Does the tool you're using use the shared memory just as shared memory, and not for locks, etc.? If so, you're better off setting up shared mmap'ed files, since there will be no limit. I have a simple allocater called filemalloc and filecalloc that does this, if you want them let me know. Works much better than sysv shm. ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 10:07:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21816 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21804 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA08351; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607071701.KAA08351@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Amancio Hasty Cc: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey), hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Subject: Re: gcc lies? Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 10:01:50 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 07 Jul 1996 02:41:06 -0700 Amancio Hasty wrote: > Hmmm... 5.4 vs 14 seconds -- sounds to me like a good reason to > use gcc-1.42. > > I can see using gcc-1.42 for doing development once you get past the > stage of *gross* bugs for the final compilation phase switch > over to gcc-2.xxx. ...which potentially exposes one to be bitten by code generation differences during the final stages. Consistency is good. IMO, there is _never_ a good reason to use a grossly out-of-date compiler. -- save the ancient forests - http://www.bayarea.net/~thorpej/forest/ -- Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 11:21:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04972 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04967 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 11:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA14836 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 20:21:46 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA21268 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 20:21:46 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA27038 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 20:10:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607071810.UAA27038@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: gcc lies? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 20:10:27 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607071231.WAA22327@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Jul 7, 96 10:31:02 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > bcc -S: 0.76 real 0.67 user 0.08 sys > cc -S: 7.16 real 6.96 user 0.18 sys > cc -O2 -S: 14.94 real 14.73 user 0.11 sys Pity that bcc doesn't optimize, i would vote for it being the kernel compiler otherwise. :-)) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 12:06:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06919 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 12:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06914 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 12:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA12264; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:06:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: "Ron G. Minnich" cc: Tom Bartol , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shared Memory Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Ron G. Minnich wrote: > > actually, you're not really running out of shared memory. You're running > out of sysv shared memory, which is barely a qualifier for the name > 'shared memory' :=) > Okay...can I increase that? :) ipcs -M shows: postgres@zeus> ipcs -M shminfo: shmmax: 4194304 (max shared memory segment size) shmmin: 1 (min shared memory segment size) shmmni: 32 (max number of shared memory identifiers) shmseg: 8 (max shared memory segments per process) shmall: 1024 (max amount of shared memory in pages) So would have assumed I had 4Meg of Shared Memory available, no? > Does the tool you're using use the shared memory just as shared memory, > and not for locks, etc.? If so, you're better off setting up shared > mmap'ed files, since there will be no limit. I have a simple allocater > called filemalloc and filecalloc that does this, if you want them let me > know. Works much better than sysv shm. > I haven't got a clue...I'm running Postgres95, which uses SYSV shared memory...anyone out there know the answer to this one? :) Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 12:35:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08929 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 12:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08923 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 12:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA15157; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:34:28 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:34:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: filemalloc etc. for shared memory between processes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk These allow you to set up a shared mapped file for use by multiple processes in the malloc and calloc style. Tested and used extensively in my latest DSM. Comments would be appreciated if I've made mistakes in here! note that if the file exists it is used. #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #define bcopy(s, d, l) memcpy(d, s, l) #define bzero(b, l) memset(b, 0, l) /* this is a simple filemalloc function */ /* first is filemake, then filemap, then filemalloc */ size_t filesize(int fd) { struct stat buf[1]; int actualsize = 0; if (fstat(fd, buf) == 0) { actualsize = buf[0].st_size; } return actualsize; } /* */ int filemake(char *name, size_t size) { static char base[MAXPATHLEN]; int fd = -1; strncpy(base, name, sizeof(base)); base[MAXPATHLEN-1] = 0; /* paranoia */ fd = mkstemp(base); if ((fd >= 0) && size && (filesize(fd) < size)) { if (ftruncate(fd, (off_t) size)) perror("ftruncate call in segalloc (MNFS library)"); } return fd; } caddr_t filemap(fd, va, size, off) int fd; caddr_t va; unsigned long size; off_t off; { caddr_t p = NULL; int actualsize; int flags = MAP_SHARED; if (size == 0) actualsize = filesize(fd); else actualsize = size; if (va) flags |= MAP_FIXED; p = mmap(va, actualsize, PROT_WRITE|PROT_READ, flags, fd, off); if ((int) p == -1) { perror("filemap"); return 0; } else { return p; } } void * filemalloc(unsigned int bytes) { int fd; void *ptr; fd = filemake("/var/tmp/zounds.XXXXXX", bytes); if (fd < 0) exit_error("filemalloc make"); ptr = filemap(fd, 0, 0, 0); if ((int) ptr < 0) zerror("filemalloc map"); if (! debug) (void) close(fd); return ptr; } void * filecalloc(int nelems, size_t sizeelem) { void *ptr = filemalloc(nelems * sizeelem); bzero(ptr, nelems*sizeelem); return ptr; } From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 13:18:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12333 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 13:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA12328 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 13:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id QAA24582; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:18:11 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 16:18:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199607072018.QAA24582@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: grog@lemis.de CC: michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607070742.JAA15222@allegro.lemis.de> (grog@lemis.de) Subject: Re: gcc lies? From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hey, you're right, even BSD/OS 2.1 still uses gcc 1.42. You'd > think they would have got their act together by now. But I > remember the background: there was something to do with kernel > structures being aligned differently under gcc 2.x. You'd think > they would have it fixed by now, though. gcc 2.7.x allows you to specify alignment, and has superior optimizations to gcc 1.42. Maybe nobody at BSDI has looked that closely at the idea? -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fourth law of computing: Anything that can go wro .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 15:58:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA20133 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20126 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1 (pdx1.world.net) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA03983 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:58:05 -0700 Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by pdx1 (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA18291 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 15:56:54 -0700 Received: (proff@localhost) by suburbia.net (8.7.4/Proff-950810) id IAA05120 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:55:27 +1000 From: Julian Assange Message-Id: <199607072255.IAA05120@suburbia.net> Subject: Re: filemalloc etc. for shared memory between processes To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:55:27 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Ron G. Minnich" at Jul 7, 96 03:34:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > These allow you to set up a shared mapped file for use by multiple > processes in the malloc and calloc style. Tested and used extensively in > my latest DSM. Comments would be appreciated if I've made mistakes in here! > note that if the file exists it is used. I am about to develop one of these myself only a little more complex. Can anyone give me some advise on how I can force malloc (or equal) to use only a particular region of memory? i.e so if process1 maintains a hashed list, complete with string pointers to variable length strings in the nodes all children will be able to see this list? -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 17:00:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA22736 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22731 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id UAA24967; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 20:00:26 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 20:00:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199607080000.UAA24967@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: rminnich@Sarnoff.COM CC: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Subject: Re: filemalloc etc. for shared memory between processes From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > These allow you to set up a shared mapped file for use by multiple > processes in the malloc and calloc style. Tested and used > extensively in my latest DSM. Comments would be appreciated if > I've made mistakes in here! note that if the file exists it is > used. What about using one mmap'd region, then dividing it up malloc-style (see Knuth) instead of constanly mmapping lots of possibly tiny files? It may be good to look at mmalloc (distributed with gdb) for using malloc with mmap. Another advantage of this is that the regions filemalloc()'d can hold pointers as offsets to the start of the mapped region that would hold valid for all processes. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fourth law of computing: Anything that can go wro .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 18:14:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA04850 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 18:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from csugrad.cs.vt.edu (csugrad.cs.vt.edu [128.173.41.74]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA04841 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 18:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (kmitch@localhost) by csugrad.cs.vt.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) id VAA22672 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:13:19 -0400 From: Keith Mitchell Message-Id: <199607080113.VAA22672@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Subject: Adaptec 2940W and Wide/Narrow Devices To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:13:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am currently having a problem getting my Wide and narrow devices to work in harmony. Everything works great if I remove the wide device (and use narrow cabling, etc). The card is one of the origional 2940W (non-ultra, no-auto termination) with BIOS 1.16. With the wide device installed, I have all of the devices attached to the SCSI bus with the Wide Cable, and converters to go from the wide cable to the narrow devices (where applicable). The wide device is a Micropolis 4221W HDD and is the last device of the internal chain and is terminated. Using the Seperate wide/narrow connectors on the 2940 is not an option since I need to use the external connector for my JAZ/tape drive. I am currently running a kernel from 5/14. I have also tried the 6/12 SNAP with the same luck. I don't currently have SUP capability. The actual problem are timeouts (of various form - datain, dataout, etc). The SNAP fails miserably. I get a timeout on every operation. CD mount, write partition table, etc. I don't seem to see this with an old boot floppy I had from a stable back in February. Any ideas on what I can do to get this working?? Thanks From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 21:04:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA02599 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.NetDTW.com (news.NetDTW.com [192.160.70.145]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA02594 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 21:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (steve@localhost) by news.NetDTW.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) id AAA00804; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:04:13 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:04:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve Corso Subject: CCD Problem To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello Hackers, I just completed an upgrade from May stable to stable as of last night. Upon completion ccd will no longer work properly. Acutally ccdconfig -g indicates what it should, but a mount indicates that the device is not configured. I would appreciate any input that could be offered. Thank you, Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 22:44:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA08303 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA08285 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id FAA11608; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 05:43:43 GMT Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:43:43 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Joel Ray Holveck cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gcc lies? In-Reply-To: <199607072018.QAA24582@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > gcc 2.7.x allows you to specify alignment, and has superior > optimizations to gcc 1.42. Maybe nobody at BSDI has looked that > closely at the idea? I'm sure they have. I hear that their kernel is compiling under gcc 2 and the Lite2 merges are pretty much done. All this will be available in the next release. mike hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 23:43:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA11902 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from teil.soft.net (tata_elxsi.soft.net [164.164.10.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA11894 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by teil.soft.net via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI.JF) for hackers@FreeBSD.org id AA01511; Mon, 8 Jul 96 12:12:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:12:49 -0800 (PST) From: "K.V.S. Sankaram" To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 1) When I am trying to use the BPF function in FREEBSD by including the header files, the compiler is showing parse errors in the header file. If that is the case then how come kernel compilation could succeed ? Also, the FREEBSD tcpdump command, which uses BPF, is working fine. 2) Is not the function ftok() system call, used in SYSTEM V IPC, supported by FREEBSD ? It is not present in any of the header files. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 23:49:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12128 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12122 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA19377 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:49:07 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 23:49:07 -0700 Message-ID: <19375.836808547@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk By way of example, let me first simply show you the hypothetical 2.1.5-GAMMA "CD release" and "ftp release" directories: CD: root@whisker-> ls HARDWARE.TXT RELNOTES.TXT fbsdboot.exe kernel tools INSTALL.TXT cdrom.inf floppies makeflp.bat utils README.TXT dists install.bat packages FTP: root@whisker-> ls HARDWARE.TXT XF86312 compat21 floppies proflibs INSTALL.TXT bin des games src README.TXT compat1x dict info RELNOTES.TXT compat20 doc manpages Since the dawn of time, it's seems, we've always put the various distribution subdirs on the CD into dists yet left them exposed on the FTP site. Why? It seems like a gratuitous difference to me, and one which only complicates the FTP installation procedure which currently has to adapt to either format (you might have a CD mounted for FTP access, for example). Any strenuous objections to folding these into one location in -current? It's already too much of a doc / general confusion hit for 2.1.5 so I'm going to leave things there as they are, but for 2.2... Comments? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jul 7 23:50:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12188 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12183 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA02788 for ; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607080650.XAA02788@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: A faster compiler? ( Re: gcc lies? ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jul 1996 14:43:43 +0900." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 23:50:25 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I sure hope someone does a performance analysis on gcc-1.42 vs gcc-2.xx or a faster compiler comes along . Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 00:11:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA13121 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from al.imforei.apana.org.au (al.imforei.apana.org.au [202.12.89.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA13116 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pjchilds@localhost) by al.imforei.apana.org.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03424; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:40:49 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:40:49 +0930 (CST) From: Peter Childs Message-Id: <199607080710.QAA03424@al.imforei.apana.org.au> To: steve@news.netdtw.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CCD Problem X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article you wrote: : Hello Hackers, Gday! : I just completed an upgrade from May stable to stable as of last night. : Upon completion ccd will no longer work properly. : Acutally ccdconfig -g indicates what it should, but a mount indicates that : the device is not configured. : I would appreciate any input that could be offered. There's a note in there somewhere about the change made to ccd code involving offsets... basically you can either fix your ccd drives to work with the new driver, or for backwards compatibility compile the kernel with options "CCD_OFFSET=0" Peter" -- Peter Childs --- http://www.imforei.apana.org.au/~pjchilds The internet is full, please try again in half an hour... From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 01:22:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16253 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.100.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16244 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu (waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu [129.101.100.23]) by dworshak.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.1) with ESMTP id BAA12378; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu (8.7.5/1.0) with SMTP id BAA20707; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:22:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "K.V.S. Sankaram" cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jul 1996 12:12:49 PDT." Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 01:22:14 PDT Message-ID: <20705.836814134@waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu> From: faried nawaz Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "K.V.S. Sankaram" wrote... 1) When I am trying to use the BPF function in FREEBSD by including the header files, the compiler is showing parse errors in the header file. If that is the case then how come kernel compilation could succeed ? Also, the FREEBSD tcpdump command, which uses BPF, is working fine. What errors, exactly? 2) Is not the function ftok() system call, used in SYSTEM V IPC, supported by FREEBSD ? It is not present in any of the header files. It's there for me in /usr/include/sys/ipc.h -- key_t ftok __P((const char *, int)); but I'm running -current, not 2.1.0-RELEASE. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 01:27:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16484 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soleil.uvsq.fr (soleil.uvsq.fr [193.51.24.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16472 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guillotin.prism.uvsq.fr (guillotin.prism.uvsq.fr [193.51.25.1]) by soleil.uvsq.fr (8.7.5/jtpda-5.2) with ESMTP id KAA00142 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:26:52 +0200 (METDST) Received: from angrand.prism.uvsq.fr (angrand.prism.uvsq.fr [193.51.25.85]) by guillotin.prism.uvsq.fr (8.7.5/jtpda-5.2) with ESMTP id KAA00902 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:26:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from (son@localhost) by angrand.prism.uvsq.fr (8.7.5/jtpda-5.2) id LAA05179 ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:29:26 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:29:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607080929.LAA05179@angrand.prism.uvsq.fr> From: Nicolas Souchu To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: polling driver Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My ZIP driver freezes the system because it polls scsi requests (the drive is connected to the // port). There is no way to make the drive generate interrupts. Then I though about something like software interrupts, timeouts or tsleep()... Not a good idea. Processes which request the drive simultaneously enter in deadlock. One waits on channel "getblk" the other on "msdhgt". Surely, doing a tsleep() in a driver is a bad idea... I think resources are not well locked before the drive-dependent scsi_cmd() routine is called because the process is supposed to keep the CPU during the call and return without being interrupted. Timeouts are not good either because they interrupt the CPU at a high level (>splbio) and the callback is executed at a very low level. Please, tell me if I'm wrong. If I could find the reason of the deadlock, I could try to fix the problem... Any idea would be very appreciated. nicolas -- Nicolas.Souchu@prism.uvsq.fr Laboratoire PRiSM - Versailles, FRANCE From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 01:38:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA16982 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA16970 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:38:34 -0700 (PDT) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA18286; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:33:39 -0700 Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA06310; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:33:32 +0200 Message-Id: <9607080833.AA06310@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com In-Reply-To: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of Sun, 07 Jul 96 23:49:07 PDT. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Jul 96 10:33:32 +0200 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk jkh@time.cdrom.com writes: > Any strenuous objections to folding these into one location in -current? > It's already too much of a doc / general confusion hit for 2.1.5 so > I'm going to leave things there as they are, but for 2.2... > > Comments? > seems perfectly reasonable to me, especially if it simplifies the installation software. One less source of potential errors. --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 03:11:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA22709 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 03:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d210.ndiasb.kiev.ua (d210.ndiasb.kiev.ua [194.44.4.27]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA22470 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 03:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by d210.ndiasb.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA20149 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:14:18 +0300 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06454; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:57:56 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id MAA19692; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:57:55 +0300 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:57:55 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199607080957.MAA19692@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filemalloc etc. for shared memory between processes Organization: ElVisti Information center X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2+] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, : What about using one mmap'd region, then dividing it up malloc-style : (see Knuth) instead of constanly mmapping lots of possibly tiny files? : It may be good to look at mmalloc (distributed with gdb) for using : malloc with mmap. Another advantage of this is that the regions : filemalloc()'d can hold pointers as offsets to the start of the mapped : region that would hold valid for all processes. I wonder how one should properly implement locking of memory regions in this case. Will appropriate fcntl(2) be enough? : -- : http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu : Fourth law of computing: : Anything that can go wro : .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. Phones/fax: +380 (44) { 244-0122, 276-0188, 271-3457, 271-3560 } "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 04:03:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA25364 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 04:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA25348 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 04:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.mcs.com (root@Venus.mcs.com [192.160.127.92]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA27277; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:03:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: by venus.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Mon, 8 Jul 96 06:03 CDT Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:03:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Alex Nash X-Sender: nash@Venus.mcs.com To: faried nawaz cc: "K.V.S. Sankaram" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <20705.836814134@waldrog.cs.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 2) Is not the function ftok() system call, used in SYSTEM V IPC, supported by > FREEBSD ? It is not present in any of the header files. > > It's there for me in /usr/include/sys/ipc.h -- > > key_t ftok __P((const char *, int)); > > but I'm running -current, not 2.1.0-RELEASE. The ftok() prototype is in -stable: 1.5.4.2 Mon Jun 3 10:44:25 1996 by joerg Branch: RELENG_2_1_0 Diffs to 1.5.4.1 ; Diffs to 1.8 Merge from HEAD: add a prototype for ftok(). Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 05:06:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA29610 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 05:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seraph.uunet.ca (uunet.ca [142.77.1.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA29597 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 05:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from systemsx by seraph.uunet.ca with UUCP id <249670-9344>; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:06:23 -0400 Received: from uranus.sx.com by kingfish.sx.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54379; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 07:49:38 -0400 Received: by uranus.sx.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09225; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 07:50:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 07:50:03 -0400 From: kingfish!wongs@sx.com (Steve Wong) Message-Id: <9607081150.AA09225@uranus.sx.com> To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk UNSUBSCRIBE hackers-digest From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 05:35:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA01096 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 05:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.hp.com (relay.hp.com [15.255.152.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA01088; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 05:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fakir.india.hp.com by relay.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA226519307; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 05:35:12 -0700 Received: from localhost by fakir.india.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA012779468; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:07:48 +0530 Message-Id: <199607081237.AA012779468@fakir.india.hp.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: HP PC Lan+ support for -current "ed" driver Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 18:07:47 +0530 From: A JOSEPH KOSHY Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I've placed the following files comprising a `diff' to the -current "ed" driver sources that add support for the HP PC LAN Plus series of ISA ethernet cards in the incoming directory on `ftp.freebsd.org'. ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/ -rwxr-xr-x 1 201 1 26719 Jul 8 12:21 HP-PCLan-Plus-1.101.diff -rwxr-xr-x 1 201 1 4362 Jul 8 12:22 HP-PCLan-Plus.README Some excerpts from the README file: ---------------------------------------------------------------- HP PCLAN+ README ================ This diff adds support for the HP PC Lan+ cards (model numbers: 27247B and 27252A) in FreeBSD's `ed' driver. The diff has been placed on: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/HP-PCLan-Plus-1.101.diff This diff is wrt -current as of 8th July 1996. Some information about the card ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The HP PCLan+ cards are based on the popular NSDP8390, with an ASIC core controlling access to the NIC. The card supports PIO data transfers and also has a memory-mapped I/O mode where the data register gets aliased into memory space at even addresses. This allows a `rep movsl' instruction to copy out data from card ram speedily. Performance of the cards is good --- I'm able to saturate ethernet bandwidth running on a P-90 ISA system. The performance difference between the PIO and MIO modes is not significant on my system, so I prefer the PIO modes as it lessens the chance of a conflict with other hardware on the machine. The driver has been stable for the past few months. I've tested it out against a number of variations of the HP cards; the AUI, and Cheapernet (but not the TP) interfaces have been tested. Most of the testing has been using the PIO transfer mode supported by the card. Memory mapped I/O mode has been used much less. ... Credits ======= I would like to thank Russell Nelson for making freely available his CRYNWR packet collection. I also would like to thank Gerald Talbott, for pointing me in the right direction when I got stuck. ... (Semi-)Legal Stuff ================== *) I'm submitting these mods as my individual effort. This work had no connection with my employer Hewlett-Packard at all. *) I'm submitting this code ``AS IS'' and cannot vouchsafe ANYTHING about its useability or fitness for any purpose. (#include ) ... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Joseph Koshy HP International Software Operation, Bangalore, India. Email: , Telnet: 847-1020, Phone: +91-80-2251554 ext 211 These are my personal opinions. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 06:04:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA02368 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from citadel.oms.co.za (gram.aztec.co.za [196.3.254.235]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02284 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by citadel.oms.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA00413 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:45:31 +0200 Received: by citadel via recvmail id 411; Mon Jul 8 14:45:19 1996 Received: (from gram@localhost) by gram.oms.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA00431 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:17:06 +0200 From: Gram Message-Id: <199607081217.OAA00431@gram.oms.co.za> Subject: BPF and point-to-point links To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:17:06 +0200 (SAT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks I am trying to use BPF to write packets directly out to a network interface. I hacked the kernel to allow me to do this with PPP (both user and kernel PPP). The code works fine with Ethernet interfaces, and works fine with SLIP, user PPP and kernel PPP, provided I am not sending the packet to the other end of the point-to-point link, but rather to some other host on the Internet. So, for example, I can talk nicely to the local Internet Cafe or to my old University machine, but not to my ISP's server. In this case the throughput is very sluggish, with what seem to be quite a few timeouts and retransmissions. I have been unable to figure this out. As I say, it is only when using SLIP or PPP and communicating with this one host that I have problems. And even then the packets get through eventually. If anyone has any ideas I'd be glad to hear them, or provide more info. BTW I'm not sure if this is a mailing list or just an e-mail address that I'm sending to. If the former, I'd also like to know how to get on it! Thanks Graham -- Dr Graham Wheeler E-mail: gram@oms.co.za Open Mind Solutions Phone: +27(21)23-6065/6/7 Open System and Network Specialists Mobile: +27(83)-253-9864 Internet Security and Firewalls Fax: +27(21)24-3656 Custom Software Solutions WWW: http://www.oms.co.za/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 06:07:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA02552 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02531 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA18964; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:05:47 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:05:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Julian Assange cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filemalloc etc. for shared memory between processes In-Reply-To: <199607072255.IAA05120@suburbia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I am about to develop one of these myself only a little more complex. > Can anyone give me some advise on how I can force malloc (or equal) to > use only a particular region of memory? i.e so if process1 maintains a > hashed list, complete with string pointers to variable length strings in > the nodes all children will be able to see this list? you mean children as in via fork(), right? rfork will get you a little bit of this. ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 06:07:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA02590 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02581 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA18986; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:07:13 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:07:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filemalloc etc. for shared memory between processes In-Reply-To: <199607080000.UAA24967@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What about using one mmap'd region, then dividing it up malloc-style > (see Knuth) instead of constanly mmapping lots of possibly tiny files? > It may be good to look at mmalloc (distributed with gdb) for using > malloc with mmap. Another advantage of this is that the regions > filemalloc()'d can hold pointers as offsets to the start of the mapped > region that would hold valid for all processes. I'll try to find this, I did this also but it was a few years back. I hacked gnu malloc to use a mapped file. BUT: the filemalloc I posted was explicitly for SHARED MEMORY, and that is why the sizes etc. were fixed: not easily changed right now after you fork. Doable, much harder. ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 06:11:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA02884 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA02873 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA19033; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:10:53 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:10:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filemalloc etc. for shared memory between processes In-Reply-To: <199607080957.MAA19692@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I wonder how one should properly implement locking of memory > regions in this case. Will appropriate fcntl(2) be > enough? no, you use the fastlock() i posted earlier. fcntl is probably the worst way there is to lock shared regions. You want memory-value-based locking so you can use compare-and-swap (or equivalent). ron From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 06:56:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA05074 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from badboy.wisetech.com (badboy.wisetech.com [205.231.232.76]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA05069 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 06:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from badboy.wisetech.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by badboy.wisetech.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA10956; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:55:21 -0400 Message-ID: <31E11348.167EB0E7@wisetech.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 09:55:20 -0400 From: Rick Weldon Organization: Weldon Internet SEcurity Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "K.V.S. Sankaram" CC: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk K.V.S. Sankaram wrote: > > 1) When I am trying to use the BPF function in FREEBSD by including the header > files, the compiler is showing parse errors in the header file. If that is > the case then how come kernel compilation could succeed ? Also, the FREEBSD > tcpdump command, which uses BPF, is working fine. > You are probably missing: #include #include There could be others depending on what you are doing. I am writing an app now that uses all parts of the packet handed in by bpf and I require the following headers. #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include > 2) Is not the function ftok() system call, used in SYSTEM V IPC, supported by > FREEBSD ? It is not present in any of the header files. Check "man ftok". It should be there. Rick From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 07:14:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA06293 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 07:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rk.ios.com (rk.ios.com [198.4.75.55]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA06283 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 07:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rashid@localhost) by rk.ios.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08393; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:14:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Rashid Karimov Message-Id: <199607081414.KAA08393@rk.ios.com> Subject: Re: CCD Problem To: steve@news.netdtw.com (Steve Corso) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Steve Corso" at Jul 8, 96 00:04:11 am Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Hello Hackers, > > I just completed an upgrade from May stable to stable as of last night. > > Upon completion ccd will no longer work properly. > > Acutally ccdconfig -g indicates what it should, but a mount indicates that > the device is not configured. Actually it should complain about invalid superblock. You would have to : - recompile kernel with option "CCD_OFFSET=0" AND - ( having CCD _not configured): wipe out old entries *ccd* in /dev use _new MAKEDEV to build the entries again they have now different major for the raw rccd* devices. Boot up with new kernel and everything should come up just right. Rashid. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 07:46:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA08626 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 07:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tellab5.lisle.tellabs.com (tellab5.lisle.tellabs.com [138.111.243.28]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA08618 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 07:46:41 -0700 (PDT) From: mikebo@tellabs.com Received: from sunc210.tellabs.com by tellab5.lisle.tellabs.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0udHZd-0004fYC; Mon, 8 Jul 96 09:46 CDT Received: by sunc210.tellabs.com (SMI-8.6/1.9) id JAA20400; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:45:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199607081445.JAA20400@sunc210.tellabs.com> Subject: Re: 2.1-960627-SNAP: YP problem To: mrm@Mole.ORG (M.R.Murphy) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:45:27 -0500 (CDT) Cc: mikebo (Mike Borowiec), hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607032310.QAA10402@meerkat.mole.org> from "M.R.Murphy" at Jul 3, 96 04:10:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike - You wrote: > > > Make the last line of the master password file > > > +:::::0:0::: > > > with vipw. This works for me. > > > A typical entry in /var/yp/etc/passwd is > > > mrm::101:200:M.R.Murphy:/home/mrm:/bin/sh > > > The corresponding entry in /var/yp/etc/master.passwd is > > > mrm::101:200::0:0:M.R.Murphy:/home/mrm:/bin/sh > > > > > Unfortunately, this did nothing... The passwd(5) man page states: > > The simplest way to activate NIS is to add an empty record with only a > > plus sign (`+') in the name field, such as this: > > > > +::::::::: > > > > The `+' will tell the getpwent(3) routines in FreeBSD's standard C li- > > brary to begin using the NIS passwd maps for lookups. > > > > This does not work. Only those users hardcoded into the local password > > file can login. I'm bound to the master YP server, and I can ypmatch my > > passwd.byname record all day... but can't login. HELP! > > Did you do exactly as I wrote, (ueernames changed as required, of course). Yup... > Then do a make in /var/yp. Exactly means > > +:::::0:0::: > not > +::::::::: > > As I said, mine works. > I believe you... but my 2.1.5 SNAP doesn't work, and 2.1R did. I may have done something wrong, but I can't figure what. Bill Paul has spent a lot of time putting together a test program for me. I'm going to follow his lead and build the test program. I'm going to stick to this as work time allows. To answer your follow up mail: Yes, I have DES security installed. As I said, if I copy my passwd entry directly from the Sun master NIS map into the local FBSD vipw session, and tweak it to have the correct fields, everything works, so I don't suspect the DES password encryption (yet). I'll be back... ;v) - Mike -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Borowiec - mikebo@tellabs.com - Tellabs Operations Inc. Senior Member of Technical Staff 4951 Indiana Avenue, MS 63 708-512-8211 FAX: 708-512-7099 Lisle, IL 60532 USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 08:00:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA09838 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA09828 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA22786; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:00:08 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607081500.KAA22786@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: BPF and point-to-point links To: gram@oms.co.za (Gram) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:00:07 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607081217.OAA00431@gram.oms.co.za> from "Gram" at Jul 8, 96 02:17:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi folks > > I am trying to use BPF to write packets directly out to a network > interface. I hacked the kernel to allow me to do this with PPP (both > user and kernel PPP). As a quick clarification, is there some reason that you cannot use the tun device to set up a separate interface for your program? In other words, I do not understand why you are trying to do this in what appears to be a more "difficult" manner, when the system provides facilities for this sort of stuff... ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 08:37:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12471 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tellab5.lisle.tellabs.com (tellab5.lisle.tellabs.com [138.111.243.28]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA12458; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:37:50 -0700 (PDT) From: mikebo@tellabs.com Received: from sunc210.tellabs.com by tellab5.lisle.tellabs.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0udINC-0004g0C; Mon, 8 Jul 96 10:37 CDT Received: by sunc210.tellabs.com (SMI-8.6/1.9) id KAA20487; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:36:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199607081536.KAA20487@sunc210.tellabs.com> Subject: Re: 2.1-960627-SNAP: YP problem To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:36:41 -0500 (CDT) Cc: bugs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, mikebo (Mike Borowiec) In-Reply-To: <199607040125.VAA03325@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from "Bill Paul" at Jul 3, 96 09:25:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill wrote: > Of all the gin joints in all the world, mikebo@tellabs.com had to walk > into mine and say: > > > > I believe a bug has been introduced into the 2.1-960627-SNAP YP code. > > As it turns out, netgroups have nothing to do with this problem. It is > > a problem with any YP password entries from my Sun server... I've added > > +::::::::: when editing the password file (with vipw), but NONE of the > > users in the NIS password map can login. > I've also tried the string "+:::::0:0:::" as suggested by Mike Murphy, but still no difference. > See if you can do 'id ' and have it recognise the > user in the NIS passwd map. If this works, then it is reading the > passwd map correctly. > Check this out: toybox> id mikebo id: mikebo: No such user toybox> ypmatch mikebo passwd mikebo:iXmhD1ZBZJbLI:1874:10:Mike Borowiec,D122,8211,:/home/sunc210/mikebo:/bin/ksh As suggested, I built and installed the following test program: #include #include #include main(argc, argv) int argc; char *argv[]; { struct passwd *pw; char *p, *ep, *salt; pw = getpwnam(argv[1]); salt = pw->pw_passwd; printf("Username is: [%s]\n", pw->pw_name); printf("UID is: [%lu]\n", pw->pw_uid); printf("Password is : [%s]\n", pw->pw_passwd); p = (char*)getpass((const char*)"Password:"); ep = (char*)crypt((const char*)p, (const char*)salt); printf("EPassword is: [%s]\n", ep); exit(0); } > 4) Run the program like this: > > $ pwtest nisuser > > where 'nisuser' is the username of a user that appears in the NIS > passwd maps. > Here's the output: toybox> ./pwtest mikebo Username is: [mikebo] UID is: [1874] Password is : [iXmhD1ZBZJbLI] Password: EPassword is: [iXmhD1ZBZJbLI] Looks good to me, but I still can't login: sunc210> telnet toybox Trying 138.111.12.69... Connected to toybox. Escape character is '^]'. FreeBSD (toybox.hq.tellabs.com) (ttyp1) login: mikebo Password: Login incorrect > (Try it with the +@myuser:::::::: entry too, just for kicks.) > Did that... no difference. > If the output looks exactly correct, then expand the program to > include a call to crypt(3) and compare the results with the encrypted > password show in the pw_passwd field. > Did that... Looks like NIS is working fine, and some programs/libraries are simply ignoring the fact that there are valid YP tokens in the passwd files. The DES package was installed at the same time as the install, and all appeared to complete flawlessly. The login program: toybox> ls -l /usr/bin/login -r-sr-xr-x 1 root bin 20480 Jun 28 03:59 /usr/bin/login toybox> cksum /usr/bin/login 957853657 20480 /usr/bin/login I appreciate all the help. What next? - Mike -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Borowiec - mikebo@tellabs.com - Tellabs Operations Inc. Senior Member of Technical Staff 4951 Indiana Avenue, MS 63 708-512-8211 FAX: 708-512-7099 Lisle, IL 60532 USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 09:03:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14729 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14712 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0udIla-000QfdC; Mon, 8 Jul 96 18:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id RAA10209; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:38:20 +0200 Message-Id: <199607081538.RAA10209@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Question about Exabyte EXB-8505 To: ulf@Lamb.net (Ulf Zimmermann) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:38:20 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <960706000521.ZM1548@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net> from "Ulf Zimmermann" at Jul 6, 96 00:05:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ulf Zimmermann writes: > > Has anyone the specs for this drive ? it is not the -XL version. I have some documentation. What do you need to know? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 09:06:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14910 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from citadel.oms.co.za (gram.aztec.co.za [196.3.254.235]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14901 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by citadel.oms.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA01404; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:48:21 +0200 Received: by citadel via recvmail id 1402; Mon Jul 8 17:47:46 1996 Received: (from gram@localhost) by gram.oms.co.za (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA00702; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:19:21 +0200 From: Gram Message-Id: <199607081519.RAA00702@gram.oms.co.za> Subject: Re: BPF and point-to-point links To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:19:21 +0200 (SAT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, gram@gram.oms.co.za (Gram) In-Reply-To: <199607081500.KAA22786@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Jul 8, 96 10:00:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Joe > > I am trying to use BPF to write packets directly out to a network > > interface. I hacked the kernel to allow me to do this with PPP (both > > user and kernel PPP). > > As a quick clarification, is there some reason that you cannot use the tun > device to set up a separate interface for your program? In other words, I > do not understand why you are trying to do this in what appears to be a more > "difficult" manner, when the system provides facilities for this sort of > stuff... Well, I am writing an application level gateway using the BPF devices. The idea is that you run something like: gateway ed1 ed2 and the gateway program then gateways packets between the interfaces. I use ipfw to prevent the kernel from doing anything with the packets. The main purpose of the application is to perform address hiding for the internal network, and restrict traffic to outgoing TCP connections. Thus I am patching the IP addresses and IP and TCP checksums in the packets between reading and writing them. While our client is using a router for their Internet connection, we have a dialup PPP connection to an ISP ourselves. I've been running the program at our site during development and testing. I want to be able to do: gateway ed1 tun0 to have the same effect for PPP. Because the PPP part is just for our own use and is not critical, and furthermore is mostly intended for testing the code which *must* run Ethernet-to-Ethernet, I don't want to make lots of special provisions for the PPP case. At the same time, I would like to retain the demand-dial capabilities of user PPP. I hope this answers your question. Or am I missing the point somewhere? HOWEVER, I must say that my original description was not entirely correct. I am also experiencing some delays when browsing the WWW. On the other hand, when making telnet connections to a couple of sites, on which I have accounts, everything hums (I'm just doing a ls -lR / and the output cruises by nicely). Some further details about what I've done may help: * when I write a packet out on the BPF device, I am putting prepending a data link header if the bound interface is Ethernet. If it is SLIP or PPP, I just write out the IP packet with no DLL header. From looking at the kernel code, this seemed to be the right thing to do. * I hacked the BPF kernel code so that I only tap incoming packets, and not outgoing, to prevent the gateway from getting copies of the packets that it writes out. * the mods I made to bpf.c to allow me to write out packets to /dev/ppp or /dev/tun0 were in the routine bpf_movein: .... switch (linktype) { case DLT_SLIP: case DLT_PPP: /* added by gram for kernel PPP */ case DLT_NULL: /* added by gram for user PPP */ sockp->sa_family = AF_INET; hlen = 0; break; ..... /**** removed by gram ******/ #if 0 case DLT_NULL: sockp->sa_family = AF_UNSPEC; hlen = 0; break; #endif .... I can, if necessary, provide a debug trace of the actions of the gateway program when these problems occur (every time I fetch mail with POP 8-( ). Looking at this trace, the main thing one notices is that everything seems to be working, with the inside client getting a packet and sending an ack. Then nothing happens for nearly a minute, and then the server side sends an ack for a few packets back. So it looks like the sliding window fills up but only one packet gets acked each time, or something like that. (Apologies for the vagueness of this description, but I haven't looked at the trace for a couple of days). I could understand it if there was always a problem, or if each TCP connection ran OK for a while and then started misbehaving, but what makes this very confusing is that: * the problem doesn't seem to happen at all when both interfaces are Ethernet; * the problem seems to be consistent, always occuring with some outside hosts and never with others. For a while I redirected my mail to a different host and then I picked it up with POP fine every time. At present it is at the ISP and more often than not I get a POP timeout before the first message finishes getting through. BTW it isn't just that these sluggish hosts are overloaded, as if I kill the gateway program and flush the ipfw filters, and the do a POP fetch using a simple TCP relay, the mail comes through fine. Regards Graham -- Dr Graham Wheeler E-mail: gram@oms.co.za Open Mind Solutions Phone: +27(21)23-6065/6/7 Open System and Network Specialists Mobile: +27(83)-253-9864 Internet Security and Firewalls Fax: +27(21)24-3656 Custom Software Solutions WWW: http://www.oms.co.za/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 09:50:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA17343 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maki.wwa.com (maki.wwa.com [198.49.174.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA17337 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wendigo.trans.sni-usa.com by maki.wwa.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0udJW3-000rRpC; Mon, 8 Jul 96 11:50 CDT Received: from vogon.trans.sni-usa.com (vogon [136.157.83.215]) by wendigo.trans.sni-usa.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA00592 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:43:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from shyam.trans.sni-usa.com (shyam.trans.sni-usa.com [136.157.82.43]) by vogon.trans.sni-usa.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA04241 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:58:00 -0500 From: hal@snitt.com (Hal Snyder) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: async? soft updates? Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 16:51:18 GMT Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Transportation Technologies Message-ID: <31e13be4.945083749@vogon.trans.sni-usa.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OK, will advertise my ignorance: How exactly does async mount work? What is deferred, until when? Ditto for soft updates. ?? A reference would be ok, if it takes too long to say here. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 09:52:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA17453 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA17446 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA12252 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:52:14 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:52:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: -current always crashing in nfsd Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmmmm, I'm getting a constant stream of panic, trap-type 12, page fault in kernel mode on my P6-200 with -current. The curproc always seems to be nfsd. Anybody else seeing this? From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 10:51:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25294 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sierra.zyzzyva.com (ppp0.zyzzyva.com [198.183.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25289 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zyzzyva.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sierra.zyzzyva.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA05508 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:51:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199607081751.MAA05508@sierra.zyzzyva.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: CDF filesystem X-uri: http://www.zyzzyva.com/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 12:51:16 -0500 From: Randy Terbush Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone else seen the following? CDFs on HP-UX are one of the few things I liked about that OS. It has many obvious benefits. ftp://uiarchive.cso.uiuc.edu/pub/systems/linux/sunsite/kernel/patches/misc/linux-2.0-transname.patch.README From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 11:51:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA29659 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29650 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA26984 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:51:31 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA03897 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:51:30 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01051 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:32:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607081832.UAA01051@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:32:21 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19375.836808547@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jul 7, 96 11:49:07 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Any strenuous objections to folding these into one location in -current? DO IT! The traditional difference has been causing me much grief when installing via FTP from a CDROM. (It usually required lying about the dist directory, and providing a separate ``root'' floppy.) I'd also like to see FTP installations using the given path as absolute (as opposed to $HOME-relative) if it starts with a slash, but that's of course way too late for 2.1.5. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 12:24:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01625 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01620 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA07445; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607081923.MAA07445@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: lm@neteng.engr.sgi.com (Larry McVoy) Subject: Larry's lmbench and FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 12:23:50 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Larry just posted recently on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc on the thread TCP Latency. My memory is foggy right now as to the exact problems involved with his lbench results for FreeBSD and given that he intents to release lmbench 2.0 soon now I think is a good time to give him feedback . At least on Usenet he seems to be open so we shall see.. Have Fun, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 12:25:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01682 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01667 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA27999; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:24:09 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA04301; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:24:07 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01436; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:13:35 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607081913.VAA01436@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: -current always crashing in nfsd To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:13:35 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: mrcpu@cdsnet.net (Jaye Mathisen) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Jaye Mathisen at "Jul 8, 96 09:52:14 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jaye Mathisen wrote: > Hmmmm, I'm getting a constant stream of panic, trap-type 12, page fault in > kernel mode on my P6-200 with -current. The curproc always seems to be > nfsd. Wild guess: are you perchance using an outdated NFS LKM? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 12:31:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02153 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02136 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA27995; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:24:06 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA04300; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:24:05 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA01423; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:12:57 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607081912.VAA01423@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: async? soft updates? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:12:56 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hal@snitt.com (Hal Snyder) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <31e13be4.945083749@vogon.trans.sni-usa.com> from Hal Snyder at "Jul 8, 96 04:51:18 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Hal Snyder wrote: > How exactly does async mount work? What is deferred, until when? `metadata' updates. Right now, updates to things like directory entries are done synchronously by default. That means, if you rm -r a large tree, the heads will become very noisy. Likewise, if you turn off the machine during a large file-creating process (untarring an archive for example), you'll end up with a bunch of files with zero length directory entries. -- The dir entries have been updated synchronously, but the file data itself didn't make it onto the disk yet. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 12:49:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03720 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com ([206.245.251.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03714 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04870; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607081946.MAA04870@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: BPF and point-to-point links To: gram@oms.co.za (Gram) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:46:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, hackers@freebsd.org, gram@gram.oms.co.za In-Reply-To: <199607081519.RAA00702@gram.oms.co.za> from "Gram" at Jul 8, 96 05:19:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. we have set up an infrastructure for arbitrary user-level agents to 'meddle' with packets.. it is based on the packet filtering code.. you can arbitrarily divert certain packets to a user level agent, which can examine/modify them and re-inject them to the system. > it sounds like you might be able to use thos for what you want to do better than bpf etc. We (whistle.com) want to commit the additions to the system but haven't got a 2nd "sponsor" yet.. these are relative to-current and allow us to impliment arbitrary network address translation and packet encryption and encapsulation among other things. > > Hi Joe > > > > I am trying to use BPF to write packets directly out to a network > > > interface. I hacked the kernel to allow me to do this with PPP (both > > > user and kernel PPP). > > > > As a quick clarification, is there some reason that you cannot use the tun > > device to set up a separate interface for your program? In other words, I > > do not understand why you are trying to do this in what appears to be a more > > "difficult" manner, when the system provides facilities for this sort of > > stuff... > > Well, I am writing an application level gateway using the BPF devices. > The idea is that you run something like: > > gateway ed1 ed2 > > and the gateway program then gateways packets between the interfaces. > I use ipfw to prevent the kernel from doing anything with the packets. > The main purpose of the application is to perform address hiding for the > internal network, and restrict traffic to outgoing TCP connections. Thus > I am patching the IP addresses and IP and TCP checksums in the packets > between reading and writing them. as I said.. we should talk.. > > While our client is using a router for their Internet connection, > we have a dialup PPP connection to an ISP ourselves. I've been > running the program at our site during development and testing. > I want to be able to do: > > gateway ed1 tun0 > > to have the same effect for PPP. Because the PPP part is just for our own > use and is not critical, and furthermore is mostly intended for testing > the code which *must* run Ethernet-to-Ethernet, I don't want to make lots of > special provisions for the PPP case. At the same time, I would like to > retain the demand-dial capabilities of user PPP. > our scheme is independent of the inteface used.. > I hope this answers your question. Or am I missing the point somewhere? > > HOWEVER, I must say that my original description was not entirely > correct. I am also experiencing some delays when browsing the WWW. > On the other hand, when making telnet connections to a couple of sites, > on which I have accounts, everything hums (I'm just doing a ls -lR / > and the output cruises by nicely). > > Some further details about what I've done may help: > > * when I write a packet out on the BPF device, I am putting prepending > a data link header if the bound interface is Ethernet. If it is SLIP or PPP, > I just write out the IP packet with no DLL header. From looking at > the kernel code, this seemed to be the right thing to do. > * I hacked the BPF kernel code so that I only tap incoming packets, and not > outgoing, to prevent the gateway from getting copies of the packets that > it writes out. we've taken that into account > * the mods I made to bpf.c to allow me to write out packets > to /dev/ppp or /dev/tun0 were in the routine bpf_movein: > > .... > .... > In addition we can divert some packets while not divert others, allowing a mixture of high-speed and low-speed routing at the same time.. > > [stuff deleted] +----------------------------------+ ______ _ __ | __--_|\ Julian Elischer | \ U \/ / On assignment | / \ julian@whistle.com +------>x USA \ in a very strange | ( OZ ) 110 Marsh road, Foster City. \___ ___ | country ! +- X_.---._/ USA+(510) 645-3137(wk) \_/ \\ > v LL LL From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 13:34:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA06544 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06538 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA19278; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 22:34:00 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id WAA18677; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 22:33:44 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.Alpha.5/keltia-uucp-2.8) id VAA15205; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:07:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199607081907.VAA15205@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:07:53 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <19375.836808547@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jul 7, 96 11:49:07 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2178 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Jordan K. Hubbard said: > Any strenuous objections to folding these into one location in -current? > It's already too much of a doc / general confusion hit for 2.1.5 so > I'm going to leave things there as they are, but for 2.2... I think consistency is important so merging the two schemees is a good thing. The CD layout is good IMO. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #12: Sun Jun 30 14:10:07 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 13:47:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07454 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07448 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA23180; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:46:23 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607082046.PAA23180@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:46:23 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607081832.UAA01051@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Jul 8, 96 08:32:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Any strenuous objections to folding these into one location in -current? > > DO IT! > > The traditional difference has been causing me much grief when > installing via FTP from a CDROM. (It usually required lying about the > dist directory, and providing a separate ``root'' floppy.) > > I'd also like to see FTP installations using the given path as > absolute (as opposed to $HOME-relative) if it starts with a slash, but > that's of course way too late for 2.1.5. Why, you don't like specifying a URL of ftp://ftp/../../../../../../../some/path/name? (my AMD setup causes AMD to translate to a temporary pathname 7 elements long)... I'm tired of this too :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 13:55:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07922 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tombstone.sunrem.com (tombstone.sunrem.com [206.81.134.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA07916 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brandon@localhost) by tombstone.sunrem.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA02225; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:55:00 -0600 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:55:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Gillespie To: "Ron G. Minnich" cc: Tom Bartol , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Shared Memory Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Ron G. Minnich wrote: > actually, you're not really running out of shared memory. You're running > out of sysv shared memory, which is barely a qualifier for the name > 'shared memory' :=) > > Does the tool you're using use the shared memory just as shared memory, > and not for locks, etc.? If so, you're better off setting up shared > mmap'ed files, since there will be no limit. I have a simple allocater > called filemalloc and filecalloc that does this, if you want them let me > know. Works much better than sysv shm. I have a friend who would love to take a look at your source, pointers? -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 14:17:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09319 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09298 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id HAA17933; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:12:05 +1000 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:12:05 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607082112.HAA17933@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: Nicolas.Souchu@prism.uvsq.fr, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: polling driver Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Surely, doing a tsleep() in a driver is a bad idea... I think >resources are not well locked before the drive-dependent scsi_cmd() >routine is called because the process is supposed to keep the CPU >during the call and return without being interrupted. Sleeping works (only) in process context (not in interrupt handlers including timeout handlers) . The SCSI_NOSLEEP flag is supposed to tell SCSI drivers when it is safe to sleep. >Timeouts are not good either because they interrupt the CPU at a high >level (>splbio) and the callback is executed at a very low level. Timeout handlers are always called at the same low level (splsoftclock) (; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id HAA04979; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:47:20 +1000 From: David Dawes Message-Id: <199607082147.HAA04979@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:47:20 +1000 (EST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607082046.PAA23180@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Jul 8, 96 03:46:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > Any strenuous objections to folding these into one location in -current? >> >> DO IT! >> >> The traditional difference has been causing me much grief when >> installing via FTP from a CDROM. (It usually required lying about the >> dist directory, and providing a separate ``root'' floppy.) >> >> I'd also like to see FTP installations using the given path as >> absolute (as opposed to $HOME-relative) if it starts with a slash, but >> that's of course way too late for 2.1.5. > >Why, you don't like specifying a URL of > >ftp://ftp/../../../../../../../some/path/name? I've always done local ftp installs with an absolute path, but putting in two slashes: ftp://hostname//absolute/path That's always worked for me. David From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 15:37:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13993 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13988 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.2/1.0/WV) id SAA26579; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA02175; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:33:47 -0400 Received: from localhost.lkg.dec.com (localhost.lkg.dec.com [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA04114; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:39:37 GMT Message-Id: <199607081839.SAA04114@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost.lkg.dec.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 Cc: tech-kern@NetBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some interesting papers on BSD ... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:00:52 -0400." <9607052000.AA11110@netrix.lkg.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 18:39:36 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The filesystem benchmark discussed in TR-19-95 [tr-19-95.ps.gz (541 K)] Diane L. Tang. 1995. ``Benchmarking Filesystems.'' is available from http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~dtang/bench.html -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 16:02:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15952 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15945 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id TAA28262; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:00:32 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:00:32 -0400 Message-Id: <199607082300.TAA28262@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua CC: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607080957.MAA19692@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> (stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua) Subject: Re: filemalloc etc. for shared memory between processes From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> What about using one mmap'd region, then dividing it up >> malloc-style > I wonder how one should properly implement locking of memory > regions in this case. Will appropriate fcntl(2) be enough? It will work, but is slow. Instead, use msleep() and friends. You'd need to have the malloc/free also do locking; simply using mmalloc() or something of the like could result in a corrupt arena, unless the apps really have their algorithms together. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fourth law of computing: Anything that can go wro .signature: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 16:07:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16467 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16462 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from muggsy.lkg.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.2/1.0/WV) id TAA02397; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:01:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whydos.lkg.dec.com by muggsy.lkg.dec.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) with SMTP id AA02354; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:01:20 -0400 Received: from localhost.lkg.dec.com (localhost.lkg.dec.com [127.0.0.1]) by whydos.lkg.dec.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA04291; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:07:09 GMT Message-Id: <199607081907.TAA04291@whydos.lkg.dec.com> X-Authentication-Warning: whydos.lkg.dec.com: Host localhost.lkg.dec.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 Cc: tech-kern@netbsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some interesting papers on BSD ... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:00:52 -0400." <9607052000.AA11110@netrix.lkg.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 19:07:09 +0000 From: Matt Thomas Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here I go again... Another paper ... http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~chris/papers/cli.ps Draft of paper discussing different hardware synchronization schemes on the x86. It discusses how to avoid talking to the PIC/8259 which scheduling critical sections. While it probably won't save much on lightly loaded systems, I have to wonder how it would effect heavily loaded systems such wcarchive.cdrom.com... -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 16:07:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16490 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pf1.phil.uni-sb.de (root@pf1.phil.uni-sb.de [134.96.82.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16483 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by pf1.phil.uni-sb.de (8.7.5/8.7.3/960704chris) with ESMTP id AAA03368 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:44:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from news2.new-york.net by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: news2.new-york.net [165.254.2.53]) id QQaxnm26468; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from news@localhost) by news2.new-york.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA06096 for saar-lists-freebsd-hackers@uunet.uu.net; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:44:11 -0400 Newsgroups: saar.lists.freebsd-hackers Path: not-for-mail From: bug@cybernex.net (Matt (The BUG)) Subject: Corel WWW Publisher X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 X-Nntp-Posting-User: (Unauthenticated) Message-ID: X-Trace: 836865846/5304 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: cnj1-147.cybernex.net Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:48:36 GMT Apparently-To: saar-lists-freebsd-hackers@uunet.uu.net Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Could some one please post or E-mail me the files for COREL WWW PUBLISHER!!! :) Thanks!!!!!!!! BUG ********************************************************************* BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG You should take a look at my SKATERING www page http://www2.cybernex.net/~mhw1 (e-mail me some new Ideas for other www pages) QUOTE: "There is a way around everything, and everything has its way around" BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG BUG ********************************************************************* From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 16:27:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA18158 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18147 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA22615; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:25:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jul 1996 15:46:23 CDT." <199607082046.PAA23180@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 16:25:50 -0700 Message-ID: <22613.836868350@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Why, you don't like specifying a URL of > > ftp://ftp/../../../../../../../some/path/name? > > (my AMD setup causes AMD to translate to a temporary pathname 7 elements > long)... > > I'm tired of this too :-) There's only one problem. Say I create a user and I point his home directory straight at the CD (something which gets done a lot :-). Its very nice to be able to say: ftp://my.local.site/ As the URL and have it Just Work, assuming that I've gone to the Options editor and entered the appropriate username and password. It also collapses all URL handling handily into one place since whether the username is "ftp" or "joe", the pathname handling is the same. The essential problem is with the URL, which also uses / chars for separators. Given an FTP username of joe, how do you tell that: ftp://my.local.site/release/2.1.5 is /release/2.1.5 or ~joe/release/2.1.5? Yes, I'm aware that you could say: ftp://my.local.site/~joe/2.1.5 But that would violate the principle of least surprise if you've already set the username to joe. :-) As you can see, it's not an immediately obvious decision or I'd have changed the behavior long ago. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 16:31:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA18776 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18766 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA22642; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:29:36 -0700 (PDT) To: David Dawes cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco), joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jul 1996 07:47:20 +1000." <199607082147.HAA04979@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 16:29:36 -0700 Message-ID: <22640.836868576@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've always done local ftp installs with an absolute path, but putting > in two slashes: > > ftp://hostname//absolute/path > > That's always worked for me. Right, THAT works and always has since I figure in the case of two //'s, the user knows exactly what he/she's doing. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 16:40:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA20305 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA20286 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id SAA23417; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:38:22 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607082338.SAA23417@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:38:22 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <22613.836868350@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 8, 96 04:25:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'm tired of this too :-) > > There's only one problem. > > Say I create a user and I point his home directory straight at the CD > (something which gets done a lot :-). Its very nice to be able to say: > > ftp://my.local.site/ > > As the URL and have it Just Work, assuming that I've gone to the > Options editor and entered the appropriate username and password. It > also collapses all URL handling handily into one place since whether > the username is "ftp" or "joe", the pathname handling is the same. > > The essential problem is with the URL, which also uses / chars for > separators. Given an FTP username of joe, how do you tell that: > > ftp://my.local.site/release/2.1.5 > > is /release/2.1.5 or ~joe/release/2.1.5? > > Yes, I'm aware that you could say: > > ftp://my.local.site/~joe/2.1.5 > > But that would violate the principle of least surprise if you've > already set the username to joe. :-) > > As you can see, it's not an immediately obvious decision or I'd have > changed the behavior long ago. Having understood this fundamental problem, I chose long ago not to whine about it, and have patiently tapped in my 7 ../ 's to do dozens of loads of my custom FreeBSD images here. However, since we are visiting this topic, and you are very intimate with this code, let me ask you this: I assume something parses up the URL format. I would think it would be possible to attempt intelligent chdir's to try to figure out what was meant... or, perhaps simpler yet, in the case where a first access attempt failed, perhaps a "cd /" could be done and the attempt retried.. How hard would it be to add a minimal amount of intelligence to the procedure? ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 16:42:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA20824 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA20811 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA22716; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:40:56 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jul 1996 18:38:22 CDT." <199607082338.SAA23417@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 16:40:56 -0700 Message-ID: <22714.836869256@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I assume something parses up the URL format. I would think it would be > possible to attempt intelligent chdir's to try to figure out what was > meant... or, perhaps simpler yet, in the case where a first access attempt > failed, perhaps a "cd /" could be done and the attempt retried.. > > How hard would it be to add a minimal amount of intelligence to the > procedure? Not too hard, but certainly harder than simply telling people to type two leading slashes.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 17:29:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA04309 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nike.efn.org (gurney_j@garcia.efn.org [198.68.17.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04300 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.efn.org [127.0.0.1]) by nike.efn.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA17647; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:31:20 -0700 (PDT) From: John-Mark Gurney Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. In-Reply-To: <19375.836808547@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: [...] > Since the dawn of time, it's seems, we've always put the various > distribution subdirs on the CD into dists yet left them exposed on the > FTP site. Why? It seems like a gratuitous difference to me, and one > which only complicates the FTP installation procedure which currently > has to adapt to either format (you might have a CD mounted for FTP > access, for example). > > Any strenuous objections to folding these into one location in -current? > It's already too much of a doc / general confusion hit for 2.1.5 so > I'm going to leave things there as they are, but for 2.2... > > Comments? please make them the same... it's been hard for some of us without the disk space to just simplely copy the cd over to the hard disk because we don't have the space and you can't just point the ftp dist to the cd because of the floppies and the dists being in different base directories... I'm in favor for merging the two... but I think it would help is to mirror the floppies into the dists directory for the cd... that way you just point it into the dists directory and it will be able to find the floppy images... hope this helps... TTYL.. John-Mark gurney_j@efn.org http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Modem/FAX: (541) 683-6954 (FreeBSD Box) Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD (unix) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 18:22:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20834 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20825 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id BAA18831; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:22:25 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:22:24 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "Ron G. Minnich" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: filemalloc etc. for shared memory between processes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 8 Jul 1996, Ron G. Minnich wrote: > > I wonder how one should properly implement locking of memory > > regions in this case. Will appropriate fcntl(2) be > > enough? > > no, you use the fastlock() i posted earlier. fcntl is probably the worst > way there is to lock shared regions. You want memory-value-based locking > so you can use compare-and-swap (or equivalent). I read in the New Frontiers book about 4.4bsd semaphores; something like mset and mclear, but I didn't see any mention of this in the 4.4 deamon book. Does the pthreads lib have facilities for locking data structures in shared memory? -mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 18:31:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21449 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21440 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id BAA18884; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:31:05 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:31:05 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: BLOCKSIZE=1k default for csh and sh In-Reply-To: <22714.836869256@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I suggest setting the BLOCKSIZE to 1k in the release for newbies who are confused by ls output. -mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 18:36:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21789 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA21782 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA28497; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:31:59 +1000 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:31:59 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607090131.LAA28497@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: matt@lkg.dec.com Subject: Re: Some interesting papers on BSD ... Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-kern@netbsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~chris/papers/cli.ps >Draft of paper discussing different hardware synchronization schemes >on the x86. It discusses how to avoid talking to the PIC/8259 which >scheduling critical sections. While it probably won't save much on >lightly loaded systems, I have to wonder how it would effect heavily >loaded systems such wcarchive.cdrom.com... FreeBSD has never used the PIC for spl*(). I fixed spl*() in 386BSD-0.0. I wouldn't have considered using the PIC in the first place. Non-multitasking x86 systems normally use cli/sti to get essentially only two interrupt priorities (the PIC provides some priority stuff but it is not much use), and this works OK for multi- tasking provided the cricial sections are short. Even cli/sti has become much slower than the memory-based spl's used in FreeBSD. On Pentium's, pushfl/cli/popfl takes 14 cycles, while `s = splhigh(); splx(s);' takes 4 cycles assuming no cache or branch target buffer misses. The effect of fixing the spl's was very large even on unloaded systems. TCP to localhost speeded up by 25% or so on a 486/33, because it involves a surprisingly large number of spl's (40000/MB IIRC, but this seems too surprisingly large) and each spl pair used 26 PIC i/o instructions under 386BSD-0.0. The speedup would be a factor of about 10-20 on a fast Pentium (from 1 or 2 MB/s to about 20MB/s). Of course, a better implementation using the PIC would only involve 2 or 4 i/o instructions per spl pair. spl is probably fundamentally wrong for SMP. I haven't thought much about what to use instead. FreeBSD still uses the PIC for masking in-service interrupts. This could probably be avoided for edge-sensitive interrupts by depending on the interrupt signal staying high until the interrupt is dismissed so that another edge doesn't occur until the next i/o completion. At worst, the PIC could be used only for noisy interrupts. I haven't tried this because the benefits would be small. Hardware interrupts are much rarer than spls. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 18:40:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA22044 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (eldorado.net-tel.co.uk [193.122.171.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA22022 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:40:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Received: (from root@localhost) by eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.10) id CAA17796; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 02:38:58 +0100 Received: from "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=GOLD 400/C=GB/" by net-tel.co.uk (Route400-RFCGate); Tue, 9 Jul 96 2:38:42 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "eldorado" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Tue, 9 Jul 96 2:38:42 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "net-tel cambridge" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Tue, 9 Jul 96 1:38:40 +0000 X400-Received: by "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"; Relayed; Tue, 9 Jul 96 1:38:40 +0000 X400-MTS-Identifier: ["/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/";hst:3369-960709013840-15F9] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Originator: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 1:38:40 +0000 X400-Content-Identifier: Re(2): CD distri Message-Id: <"2422-960709014148-EDE5*/G=Andrew/S=Gordon/O=NET-TEL Computer Systems Ltd/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"@MHS> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <22640.836868576@time.cdrom.com> Subject: Re(2): CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I've always done local ftp installs with an absolute path, but putting > > in two slashes: > > > > ftp://hostname//absolute/path > > > > That's always worked for me. > > Right, THAT works and always has since I figure in the case of two > //'s, the user knows exactly what he/she's doing. :-) > > Jordan It always used to work for me, but appeared to have stopped working with the most recent CD I have received (the 960501-SNAP). I couldn't find any combination of URL which would allow an install direct from the CD mounted on a remote machine. Previously (2.0.5, 2.1R etc.) it always seemed to work OK if a trailing slash was used as well, eg. ftp://hostname//cdrom/ ^^^ with the 960501 CD, no combination of URL appeared to load both the root image and the dists successfully. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 18:41:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA22148 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clipper.cs.kiev.ua (root@cs-demon-64k.cs.kiev.ua [193.124.48.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA22118 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dog by clipper.cs.kiev.ua with uucp id m0udRUu-00050LC; Tue, 9 Jul 96 04:21 WET DST Received: (from dk@localhost) by dog.farm.org (8.7.5/dk#3) id RAA09331; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:59:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk Message-Id: <199607082159.RAA09331@dog.farm.org> To: mbarkah@hemi.com (Ade Barkah) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NFS install problem with 2.2-960612-SNAP, motd, etc. Newsgroups: cs-monolit.gated.lists.freebsd.hackers Organization: FARM Computing Association Reply-To: dk+@ua.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199606200510.XAA19984@hemi.com> you wrote: > rc.local has the following code in it: > | T=/tmp/_motd ... > | uname -v | sed ... > $T > | ... > | cp $T /etc/motd > The above is extremely annoying. =-) Is there a good reason to keep > such code in rc.local ? Can we get rid of it ? Please ? =-) I can > just think of all the poor FreeBSD newcomers who can't for the life > of them figure out why their /etc/motd keeps on dissappearing. Over- > writing user files is morally bad, anyways. it is not disappearing; there is just some little magic insisting on giving user an idea of the system s?he have just logged in ;-) I would comment on it line-by-line: T=/tmp/_motd # a name for the scratch file rm -f $T # delete it uname -v | sed -e '...[long]...' > $T # put massaged uname output to it echo "" >> $T # append a line to it sed '1,/^$/d' < /etc/motd >> $T # append old motd but its begginning # up to the first empty line to it cp $T /etc/motd # copy it back to /etc/motd chmod 644 /etc/motd # fix perms rm -f $T # remove scarch file the only bad possibility arising from this is: when you put something into /etc/motd and _remove_ first FreeBSD id line, all text from the beginning of /etc/motd to the first empty line (or to the end of file, if there isn't an empty line there) would be replaced. (if file starts with empty line, text until _second_ empty line would be lost.) I can consider this a suboptimal behaviour, though. (Should we put `Do not remove this tag under penalty of law' into manual page for /etc/motd? ) changing sed '1,/^$/d' to sed '/^FreeBSD /,/^$/d' can probably make anyone happy, though. -- "'Programming' is a four-letter word." --Craig Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 18:45:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA22493 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resolver.viaduk.net (root@resolver.viaduk.net [194.44.78.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA22482 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sns@localhost) by resolver.viaduk.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA10103; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:46:49 +0300 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 17:46:49 +0300 (EET DST) From: Sergey Stepanenko To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 3Com Drivers Message-ID: X-Contacts: +38 044 4625090 X-Organization: Viaduk-Telecom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello! Finally I've received Technical References for 3Com PCI/EISA Bus Master Adapters and for Etherlink III Parallel Tasking ISA, EISA, Micro Channel and PCMCIA Adapters... The problems as follow, these documents are in hardcopy. I'm too stupid to write a good driver. All that I was able to do is to find these documents. If someone will cooperate with me on writing good drivers for 3Com... So, what can we do? ps. it's hard to resend these documents (as it involvse not only a matter of money, but a matter of our contry's customs and postal service i wouldn't rely on...). WB . . Sergey Stepanenko - System/Network Administrator Technical Director - Viaduk-Telecom, Inc 10 Sagaidachnogo St., 254070 Kiev, Ukraine tel. +38 (044) 4168267 tel./fax +38 (044) 4625090 hostmaster@viaduk.net - sns@viaduk.net . . From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 19:29:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA25697 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25689 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id CAA19204; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 02:29:11 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:29:11 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock Reply-To: Michael Hancock To: Bruce Evans cc: matt@lkg.dec.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-kern@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Some interesting papers on BSD ... In-Reply-To: <199607090131.LAA28497@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Bruce Evans wrote: > spl is probably fundamentally wrong for SMP. I haven't thought much > about what to use instead. You might want to read "Unix Internals: The New Frontiers" by Uresh Vahalia and "Unix Systems for Modern Architectures" by Curt Schimmel to see the paths others have taken. -mike hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 20:39:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03766 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.hp.com (relay.hp.com [15.255.152.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03754 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fakir.india.hp.com by relay.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA002963560; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:39:24 -0700 Received: from localhost by fakir.india.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA093623716; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:11:56 +0530 Message-Id: <199607090341.AA093623716@fakir.india.hp.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: SH bugs? Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:11:55 +0530 From: A JOSEPH KOSHY Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Came across the following bugs in our (A)SH, and was wondering if these have been fixed elsewhere. I couldn't locate the `home' site for ASH, could someone please mail me this? Bug 1: ~~~~~ SH does not expand wildcarded terms properly $ cd /tmp $ touch bletch $ ls bletch bletch $ cat < /tmp/bl* cannot open /tmp/bl*: no such file Bug 2: ~~~~~~ CTRL-Z when executing a `for' loop works wierdly $ cd /tmp/ $ for i in /usr/share/doc/handbook/*.html; do echo $i ln -s $i . done $ jobs -l [1] 1023 Stopped ln -s ${i} . [2] 1077 Stopped ln -s ${i} . [3] 1115 Stopped ln -s ${i} . [4] 1128 Stopped ln -s ${i} . [5] 1139 Stopped ln -s ${i} . These `jobs' need to be restarted explicitly : $ kill -CONT 1023 1077 .... or $ fg %1 ... Bug 3: ~~~~~~ `kill' doesn't accept the % syntax $ kill %1 kill: illegal process id: %1 Koshy From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 21:10:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA08411 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:10:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA08368; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA06262; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <31E1DB6C.167EB0E7@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 21:09:17 -0700 From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Organization: Walnut Creek CDROM X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5a (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: phk@FreeBSD.org CC: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: [Fwd: Parallel laplink abuse leads to death of kernel secondary timer] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------794BDF32446B9B3D2781E494" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------794BDF32446B9B3D2781E494 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yow, this one's pretty cool! :-) I guess we always knew that PLIP was a high-overhead proposition, but it's interesting to see that it only croaks on the Pentium. Jordan --------------794BDF32446B9B3D2781E494 Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Path: reason.cdrom.com!news1.crl.com!nntp.crl.com!news.PBI.net!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!mmcg From: mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike Mc Gaughey) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Subject: Parallel laplink abuse leads to death of kernel secondary timer Date: 7 Jul 1996 01:40:41 GMT Organization: Monash University Message-ID: <4rn4ip$kcr@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: molly.cs.monash.edu.au X-NNTP-Posting-User: mmcg Summary: When I use lpt0 (for tcp/ip) too much, kernel timer dies Keywords: printer port laplink cable timer Hi, all, I'm running FreeBSD 2.1.0-R on two machines, connected by a parallel laplink cable. The first is a 486/33, with a printer port on a multi I/O card. The second is a P90, printer port on motherboard. The link is set up as a network interface between the machines; ftp, rlogin, etc, work pretty well over it (albiet at only 60K/sec). When doing a large FTP, `top' reports that 60-70% of CPU time (on each machine) is spent processing interrupts (whether or not the printer port on the P90 is set up to generate interrupts :). Here's the interesting bit: if an FTP lasts for more than about a minute, `systat' (when displaying vmstat) complains that `the kernel secondary timer has died' - and it stays dead, even after the link becomes quiescent. As far as I can tell from the kernel sources, this timer runs at some multiple of the primary (real-time) timer, and is used mainly for profiling; after it dies, various statistics aren't updated (e.g. the CPU times and percentages on `top' become static). This has only ever happened on the pentium (and it doesn't seem to matter how the printer port is set up; there are several different options in the bios, for generating interrupts based on various signals - not that I'm certain they have any effect on the hardware :). A reboot fixes it. What I want to know is: is this a major problem? Is there anything else (besides statistics gathering) that relies on this secondary clock, which breaks if the clock stops? Is there a more gentle way of restarting the clock (than a reboot)? Is there any problem with just leaving it dead? Does anyone know why it dies? Does the (large) time spent processing printer port interrupts mean that clock-related interrupts are lost, resulting in the (permanent) failure of the secondary clock? Is there a software fix for this? Should I be looking at my hardware setup? Cheers, Mike. -- Mike McGaughey AARNET: mmcg@molly.cs.monash.edu.au "Thousands at his bidding speed, And post o'er land and ocean without rest" - Milton. --------------794BDF32446B9B3D2781E494-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 21:24:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA10261 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sujal.prognet.com (sujal.prognet.com [204.255.154.231]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA10249 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sujal.prognet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA08350; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 21:24:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Sujal Patel To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: thorpej@netbsd.org Subject: Update: FreeBSD ISA PnP snapshot... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/incoming/FreeBSD-ISA_PnP_June8.tar.gz Contains a new snapshot of the ISA Plug & Play code. It includes 1 major bug fix for pnpinfo, 1 for the kernel code (a really big bug), and also a patch for current and 2.1.5 The code for the 2.1.5 patch is a little neater, even though both kernel patches are functionally equivalent. Sorry, there is still no autoconfiguration or "nicer" configuration. You'll just have to stuff all of the configuration data into a big struct :-) Sample configurations are included for 4 cards (Sb16, Supra Modem, SMC EtherEz, 3Com EtherLink III). The code is believed to work on 100% of PnP cards. Sujal PS: Jason, I forgot who was working on this in your camp, and I don't have my email-box handy- Please forward this message to him. Thanks From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 22:02:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA16227 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 22:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA16219 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 22:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0udUw9-000HzgC; Tue, 9 Jul 96 07:02 MET DST Received: by ernie.kts.org (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0udUGU-00000AC; Tue, 9 Jul 96 06:19 MET DST Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: CD distribution layout vs FTP distribution layout. To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 06:19:10 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607081832.UAA01051@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Jul 8, 96 08:32:21 pm Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > I'd also like to see FTP installations using the given path as > absolute (as opposed to $HOME-relative) if it starts with a slash, Oh yes, please! I always had to start FTP installs at least twice after discovering that i had to use relative pathnames ... hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@kts.org Hamburg, Europe (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 22:29:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20351 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 22:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20332; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 22:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA16499; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:29:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:29:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607090529.XAA16499@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: phk@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Parallel laplink abuse leads to death of kernel secondary timer] In-Reply-To: <31E1DB6C.167EB0E7@FreeBSD.org> References: <31E1DB6C.167EB0E7@FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Yow, this one's pretty cool! :-) I guess we always knew that PLIP was a > high-overhead proposition, but it's interesting to see that it only > croaks on the Pentium. FWIW, I responded to this on Usenet and basically blamed his hardware. I've used PLIP to mount NFS disks and done build worlds on the two laptops I have, one a 486/75, and the other a Pentium/75. The 'servers' have been my 486/66 at home and my P-100 ASUS box at work, and I've never seen any problems with the timers dying. NFS mounting the disks over PLIP was a *really* good way of generating an incredibly high interrupt load on my 486/66, although the Pentium didn't seem to mind it as much. Both laptops seemed to not notice it much since I suspect they were CPU and/or I/O bound most of the time. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jul 8 23:20:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01303 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from doberman.cisco.com (doberman.cisco.com [171.69.1.178]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA01294 for ; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (amcrae@localhost) by doberman.cisco.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id XAA06381; Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:19:34 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 23:19:34 -0700 From: Andrew McRae Message-Id: <199607090619.XAA06381@doberman.cisco.com> To: bde@zeta.org.au Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some interesting papers on BSD ... Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans): > The effect of fixing the spl's was very large even on unloaded systems. > TCP to localhost speeded up by 25% or so on a 486/33, because it > involves a surprisingly large number of spl's (40000/MB IIRC, but this > seems too surprisingly large) and each spl pair used 26 PIC i/o > instructions under 386BSD-0.0. The speedup would be a factor of about > 10-20 on a fast Pentium (from 1 or 2 MB/s to about 20MB/s). Of course, > a better implementation using the PIC would only involve 2 or 4 i/o > instructions per spl pair. For some quantitative measurements of the effect of spl* on networking and friends, see ftp://ftp.cisco.com/amcrae/hardprof.PS (Usenix 93 paper on hardware profiling of 386BSD). The numbers are instructive, but outdated now. Perhaps I will get around to profiling the current kernel someday. Also, ftp://ftp.cisco.com/amcrae/plug_n_play.PS is the AUUG paper on integrating PC-Card into FreeBSD. Perhaps these papers could be referenced from the web page somewhere. Cheers, Andrew McRae From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 00:01:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA06094 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.warman.org.pl [148.81.160.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06082 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA28786; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:02:55 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:02:53 +0000 () From: Andrzej Bialecki To: FreeBSD hackers Subject: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I have one question: when will be released the 2.1.5? I'm currently running 2.0.5 and I'd realy like to do an upgrade. Let me also say this: I greatly admire your work, folks. If it were not for my lack of knowledge I'd gladly contribute in some way to the development of this system. Andy. +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | ANDRZEJ BIALECKI, , NASK (WARMAN) | | Research and Academic Network in Poland, Warsaw Area Network | | phone: (+48 22) 414115, Bartycka 18, 00-716 Warsaw, Poland | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2i mQCNAzFydDYAAAEEALAheWaKO7Uny4bAmT6AC2tEAPK+9VSUxX5ynA3f3yTQtXwL xovpwTQNCbqjBle8sME1hTIqgTkCHmucpucejc1z5zevdVPX4mOCeDcKOyeRf5VA XjI8YaPan/SiAfw5+GtXeiEbdf5N78Xd0old/vPKXwKebHCv7nhAoCU+bhJVAAUR tCZBbmRyemVqIEJpYWxlY2tpIDxhYmlhbEB3YXJtYW4ub3JnLnBsPg== =xasZ -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 00:27:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09772 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09755 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA06783; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:26:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Andrzej Bialecki cc: FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:02:53 -0000." Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 00:26:08 -0700 Message-ID: <6781.836897168@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I have one question: when will be released the 2.1.5? I'm currently > running 2.0.5 and I'd realy like to do an upgrade. I'd like to do the final build in 3 days, putting it up for FTP access on Friday the 13th (woo, what a day for it! ;-) > Let me also say this: I greatly admire your work, folks. If it were not > for my lack of knowledge I'd gladly contribute in some way to the > development of this system. That's why we give you source, so you can GAIN that knowledge.. :-) Thanks for the kind words.. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 00:30:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA10238 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arizona.EDU (Penny.Telcom.Arizona.EDU [128.196.128.217]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA10211 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 00:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov by Arizona.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #2381) id <01I6ULJMZ9DSCQ91TD@Arizona.EDU>; Tue, 09 Jul 1996 00:30:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost by sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18149; Tue, 09 Jul 1996 00:29:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 00:29:13 -0700 From: Doug Wellington Subject: Re: A faster compiler? ( Re: gcc lies? ) In-reply-to: "Your message of Sun, 07 Jul 1996 23:50:25 MST." <199607080650.XAA02788@rah.star-gate.com> To: Amancio Hasty Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov Message-id: <9607090729.AA18149@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Previously: >Well, I sure hope someone does a performance analysis on gcc-1.42 vs gcc-2.xx >or a faster compiler comes along . I know that there is always the argument for consistent code generation, but you might try looking at lcc. An article in Linux Journal quotes times to compile lcc with lcc and with gcc. Lcc compiled itself in 36 seconds and gcc compiled lcc in 68 seconds with default optimization and 130 seconds for maximum optimization. Interestingly, the lcc compiled program ran in 36 seconds and the gcc program ran in 30. (So gcc gains about 20% speed for the almost 400% compile time...) Check out http://www.princeton.edu/software/lcc/ -Doug Doug Wellington doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov System and Network Administrator US Geological Survey, Tucson, AZ Project Office According to proposed Federal guidelines, this message is a "non-record". Hmm, I wonder if _everything_ I say is a "non-record"...? FreeBSD and Apache - the best real tools for the virtual world! Check out www.freebsd.org and www.apache.org... Just say NO to Netscape Navigator! From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 01:03:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13516 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA13498 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA29489; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:02:13 +0200 Message-Id: <199607090802.KAA29489@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: A faster compiler? ( Re: gcc lies? ) To: doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov (Doug Wellington) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 10:02:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov In-Reply-To: <9607090729.AA18149@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> from "Doug Wellington" at Jul 9, 96 00:29:13 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Doug Wellington who wrote: > > Previously: > >Well, I sure hope someone does a performance analysis on gcc-1.42 vs gcc-2.xx > >or a faster compiler comes along . > > I know that there is always the argument for consistent code generation, > but you might try looking at lcc. An article in Linux Journal quotes > times to compile lcc with lcc and with gcc. Lcc compiled itself in 36 > seconds and gcc compiled lcc in 68 seconds with default optimization and > 130 seconds for maximum optimization. Interestingly, the lcc compiled > program ran in 36 seconds and the gcc program ran in 30. (So gcc gains > about 20% speed for the almost 400% compile time...) > > Check out http://www.princeton.edu/software/lcc/ I've played alot with lcc, there is a port to FreeBSD on: ftp://ra.dkuug.dk/pub/LCC It does quite a nice job, but it has some serious limitations that makes it a bit awkward in the FreeBSD world. The main offender here is that we use long long's which lcc doesn't support. I've played with adding support for long long's but it is not pretty :( I've got a lcc-4.0 beta though that is "real" 64bit, when I have time I'll add a x86 backend to that one, if the authors doesn't beat me to it.... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 01:48:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19545 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dawn.ww.net (root@dawn.ww.net [193.124.73.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA19505 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alexis@localhost) by dawn.ww.net (8.7.5/alexis 2.5) id MAA01867; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:46:54 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:46:54 +0400 (MSD) From: Alexis Yushin Message-Id: <199607090846.MAA01867@dawn.ww.net> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? Organization: The Wild Wind Communications X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <4rt3s6$nd@sunset.ww.net> you wrote: [...] > I'd like to do the final build in 3 days, putting it up for FTP access > on Friday the 13th (woo, what a day for it! ;-) Jordan, anything but not this, PLEASE! We are so hoping for 2.1.5-*RELEASE* that cannot take such a risk! Let it be 14th or 12th. alexis -- The signature is being changed. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 01:58:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA20654 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA20644 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA07065; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 01:54:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Alexis Yushin cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jul 1996 12:46:54 +0400." <199607090846.MAA01867@dawn.ww.net> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 01:54:30 -0700 Message-ID: <7063.836902470@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jordan, anything but not this, PLEASE! We are so hoping for > 2.1.5-*RELEASE* that cannot take such a risk! Let it be 14th or 12th. Ach, Russians are always so superstitious.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 03:31:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA26258 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA26244 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee ([193.40.6.121]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id DAA29223 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA14901; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:52:16 +0300 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:52:16 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Andrzej Bialecki , FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? In-Reply-To: <6781.836897168@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I have one question: when will be released the 2.1.5? I'm currently > > running 2.0.5 and I'd realy like to do an upgrade. > > I'd like to do the final build in 3 days, putting it up for FTP access > on Friday the 13th (woo, what a day for it! ;-) On Friday the 13th? In what month, may I ask? In July (at least in my ca,endar, so this is IMHO) the 13th is on Saturday... Sander > > > Let me also say this: I greatly admire your work, folks. If it were not > > for my lack of knowledge I'd gladly contribute in some way to the > > development of this system. > > That's why we give you source, so you can GAIN that knowledge.. :-) > Thanks for the kind words.. > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 03:50:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA27669 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA27661 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA07619; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:48:31 -0700 (PDT) To: Narvi cc: Andrzej Bialecki , FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jul 1996 12:52:16 +0300." Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 03:48:31 -0700 Message-ID: <7617.836909311@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Friday the 13th? In what month, may I ask? In July (at least in my > ca,endar, so this is IMHO) the 13th is on Saturday... [blush] - I miscounted! You're right, it's Friday the 12th. I guess the superstitious types can relax again now. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 03:58:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA28024 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA28015 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:58:21 -0700 (PDT) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA23844; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 03:52:50 -0700 Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA08781; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:52:36 +0200 Message-Id: <9607091052.AA08781@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: hackers%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com In-Reply-To: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of Tue, 09 Jul 96 01:54:30 PDT. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Jul 96 12:52:36 +0200 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk jkh@time.cdrom.com writes: > > Jordan, anything but not this, PLEASE! We are so hoping for > > 2.1.5-*RELEASE* that cannot take such a risk! Let it be 14th or 12th. > > Ach, Russians are always so superstitious.. :-) > besides, Friday is the *12th*, Saturday is the 13th. Or are talking about another month/year, Jordan ? --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 04:42:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA01306 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 04:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elbe.desy.de (elbe.desy.de [131.169.82.208]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA01293 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 04:42:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 12:59:36 +0200 Message-Id: <9607091059.AA12867@elbe.desy.de> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Jordan, anything but not this, PLEASE! We are so hoping for > > 2.1.5-*RELEASE* that cannot take such a risk! Let it be 14th or 12th. > > Ach, Russians are always so superstitious.. :-) > > Jordan Particularly there isn't actually a reason to be seriously concerned. The 13th of this month covers only the second 24 hours of a Friday, sometimes called Saturday. Lars From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 05:02:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA02452 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 05:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.pinewood.nl (gw.pinewood.nl [194.171.50.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA02439 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 05:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by gw.pinewood.nl (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA19114 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:01:54 +0200 Received: from pwood1.pinewood.nl(192.168.1.10) by gw.pinewood.nl via smap (V1.3) id sma019112; Tue Jul 9 14:01:34 1996 Received: (from franky@localhost) by pwood1.pinewood.nl (8.7.3/8.6.12) id OAA09948; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:01:33 +0200 (DST) From: "Frank ten Wolde" Message-Id: <9607091401.ZM9946@pwood1.pinewood.nl> Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:01:31 +0000 X-Face: 'BsFf8'k.q?J#?|$D*,)/?sRB{woUK&9\5K{ERmT;VTSyNLBb?muLf>b:Pt&VTDw8YCaC]6 C!MRSMr5UNjZLa]fi? X-Return-Receipt-To: franky@pinewood.nl X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: >2G partition blues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I have a bug to report. I experience severe problems when trying to setup a 4.3 Gbdisk with sysinstall (2.1-RELEASE). The problem is in de code in .../src/release/libdisk/blocks.c in the lseek line 37: void write_block(int fd, daddr_t block, void *foo) { if (-1 == lseek(fd,block * 512,SEEK_SET)) <=== PROBLEM err(1,"lseek"); if (512 != write(fd,foo, 512)) err(1,"write"); } When 'block' is larger than 4194303 (>2G partition), the result 'block * 512' will yield a negative number, which is cast to (off_t), which is also NEGATIVE. Strangely the lseek() succeeds, but the following write(2) fails: write: Input/Output Error. The correct code should first cast 'block' to (off_t): if (-1 == lseek(fd,(off_t) block * 512,SEEK_SET)) ^^^^^^^^ There is a similar problem at line 27, in the read_block() funtion. I suspect that FreeBSD has many more such problems, as I experience unexplained errors when using the disklabel utility as well (2.1-RELEASE and 2.2-960612-SNAPSHOT) if I try to use slices (disklabel to the entire disk -- without slices -- apparently works). There is a similar problem in sysinstall in the 2.2-960612-SNAPSHOT release. Sysinstall aborts with: Debugger("Slice got negative blocknumber") called. I did not take a look at the actual code for 2.2-960612-SNAPSHOT. Maybe this can be fixed in future releases of FreeBSD :-) Regards, -Frank ten Wolde -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- F.W. ten Wolde (PA3FMT) Pinewood Automation B.V. E-mail: franky@pinewood.nl Kluyverweg 2a Phone: +31-15 2682543 2629 HT Delft From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 05:19:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA03621 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 05:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA03612 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 05:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA08053; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 05:19:14 -0700 (PDT) To: "Frank ten Wolde" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: >2G partition blues In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jul 1996 14:01:31 -0000." <9607091401.ZM9946@pwood1.pinewood.nl> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 05:19:12 -0700 Message-ID: <8051.836914752@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I experience severe problems when trying to setup a 4.3 Gbdisk with > sysinstall (2.1-RELEASE). The problem is in de code in > .../src/release/libdisk/blocks.c in the lseek line 37: Hmmmm, right you are - thanks! I'll get this fix into 2.1.5. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 07:02:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA08789 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA08777 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id JAA17339 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:02:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 09:02:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199607091402.JAA17339@plains.nodak.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Friday the 13th (was 2.1.5-RELEASE ?) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan must have a SAGE 1996 calander on the wall :) . (For those that have not seen the SAGE calander, it starts the week on Monday instead of Sunday). --mark. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 07:30:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA10590 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA10578 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id XAA16107 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:55:38 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199607091425.XAA16107@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Odd hang in device driver... To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:55:38 +0930 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy people; I know I unsubscribed, but I've tripped over a curly one and some sage advice would be a lifesaver... I'm seeing a 'Panic: double fault' hang that has me wondering about the save size of auto data on the kernel stack. I have a function I'll call 'fooread()' - it's a device driver read function. Now, because I'm a loser and haven't had time to investigate uiomove properly, and because my interrupt handler uses a ringbuffer, I copy data from the ringbuffer to a temporary buffer, and then uiomove() it out of there in the case of a buffer wrap. Thus, the scratch buffer needs to be the same size as the largest read the driver will allow - in this case, the same size as the ringbuffer. To handle some serious application latency problems (not easily curable 8( ) I recently upped the receive buffer from 1K to 4K, and have subsequently started seeing these double-fault hangs. What has me wondering about the size of aut data issue is that the entry for the function in question is at 0xf01c6d64, and eip for the double fault is 0xf01c6d6d. I'm not sure of gcc's function preamble overhead, but I suspect that it's probably more than 10 bytes, and this is where the advice would be handy. The first code in the function is the traditional : unit = minor(dev); which appears to work for all other devices. And as an aside which would help me avoid the double copy altogether, is it fair to say that : uiomove(buf, a, uio); uiomove(buf + a, b, uio); would have the same effect as uiomove(buf, a + b, uio); ie. is it possible to call uiomove more than once in a read/write function? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 07:46:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA11863 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA11854 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id HAA29848 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA01302; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:29:18 +0300 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:29:18 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: Mark Tinguely cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Friday the 13th (was 2.1.5-RELEASE ?) In-Reply-To: <199607091402.JAA17339@plains.nodak.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Mark Tinguely wrote: > Jordan must have a SAGE 1996 calander on the wall :) . > > (For those that have not seen the SAGE calander, it starts the week on Monday > instead of Sunday). There are also other's that start the week on Monday - but all calendars I have seen seem to still agree on the names of the days, no matter with which day the week begins. Sander PS. How about moving it over to chat? > > --mark. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 07:55:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA13259 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peliz.sprintlink.co.za (peliz.sprintlink.co.za [206.48.91.36]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA13248 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 07:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FILESERVER by peliz.sprintlink.co.za with SMTP id QAA21699; (8.6.12/SprintLink-PE) Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:55:05 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:55:05 +0200 Message-Id: <199607091455.QAA21699@peliz.sprintlink.co.za> X-Sender: mmd@peliz.sprintlink.co.za X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: mmd@sprintlink.co.za (Man Machine Dynamics) Subject: Mirroring a hard drive for critical situations Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, We'd like to mirror our BSD hard drive to a second hard drive installed in the same PC. Unfortuanetly i've been unable to find any information on the freebsd CD-ROM. I received an email from someone, after putting a request on one of the Usenet newsgroups, with the advice to look at the Expect ftp site. Unfortuanetly i couldn't find anything on mirroring a hard drive. ( there is lots of info on how to set up a mirror for an FTP site ..) I hope you could provide me with an answer wether it's possible or not, Thanks in advanche, Piet From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 08:33:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA16371 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 08:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.INS.CWRU.Edu (odin.INS.CWRU.Edu [129.22.8.102]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA16366 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 08:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (chet@localhost) by odin.INS.CWRU.Edu (8.6.12+cwru/CWRU-2.2-ins) id LAA04805; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:29:31 -0400 (from chet) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:16:50 -0400 From: Chet Ramey To: koshy@india.hp.com Subject: Re: SH bugs? Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu In-Reply-To: Message from koshy@india.hp.com of Tue, 09 Jul 1996 09:11:55 +0530 (id <199607090341.AA093623716@fakir.india.hp.com>) Message-ID: <9607091516.AA04351.SM@odin.INS.CWRU.Edu> Read-Receipt-To: chet@po.CWRU.Edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Bug 1: > ~~~~~ > > SH does not expand wildcarded terms properly > > $ cd /tmp > $ touch bletch > $ ls bletch > bletch > $ cat < /tmp/bl* > cannot open /tmp/bl*: no such file POSIX.2 says an interactive shell is permitted to not do pathname expansion on the filename in a redirection specification. Non-interactive shells may not do it at all; interactive shells may do it only if the expansion results in a single word. The FreeBSD sh conforms to POSIX in this respect. > Bug 2: > ~~~~~~ > > CTRL-Z when executing a `for' loop works wierdly > > $ cd /tmp/ > $ for i in /usr/share/doc/handbook/*.html; do > echo $i > ln -s $i . > done > > $ jobs -l > [1] 1023 Stopped ln -s ${i} . > [2] 1077 Stopped ln -s ${i} . > [3] 1115 Stopped ln -s ${i} . > [4] 1128 Stopped ln -s ${i} . > [5] 1139 Stopped ln -s ${i} . > > These `jobs' need to be restarted explicitly : $ kill -CONT 1023 1077 .... > or $ fg %1 ... It's not all that weird. Job control works only on processes started as children of the shell. It cannot be used to suspend an entire for loop. If you want to suspend the loop as a whole, put the command in parentheses to force it into a subshell. > Bug 3: > ~~~~~~ > > `kill' doesn't accept the % syntax > > $ kill %1 > kill: illegal process id: %1 I don't think `kill' is a shell builtin on FreeBSD. Since it's an external command, it cannot know about job control identifiers. It should be possible to write a shell function to add the desired behavior to kill using the `jobid' builtin; I believe a sample is distributed with the FreeBSD sh source. -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer Chet Ramey, Case Western Reserve University Internet: chet@po.CWRU.Edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 08:50:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA17260 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 08:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (eldorado.net-tel.co.uk [193.122.171.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA17223 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 08:49:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Received: (from root@localhost) by eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.10) id QAA19827 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:49:12 +0100 Received: from "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=GOLD 400/C=GB/" by net-tel.co.uk (Route400-RFCGate); Tue, 9 Jul 96 16:44:45 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "eldorado" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Tue, 9 Jul 96 16:44:45 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "net-tel cambridge" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Tue, 9 Jul 96 15:44:44 +0000 X400-Received: by "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"; Relayed; Tue, 9 Jul 96 15:44:44 +0000 X400-MTS-Identifier: ["/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/";hst:4758-960709154444-076B] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Originator: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text X400-Recipients: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 15:44:44 +0000 X400-Content-Identifier: Re: Fwd: Paralle Message-Id: <"11605-960709154831-76DC*/G=Andrew/S=Gordon/O=NET-TEL Computer Systems Ltd/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"@MHS> To: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <31E1DB6C.167EB0E7@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Parallel laplink abuse leads to death of kernel secondary timer] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yow, this one's pretty cool! :-) I guess we always knew that PLIP was a > high-overhead proposition, but it's interesting to see that it only > croaks on the Pentium. However, most Pentium systems are new enough to have ECP-capable parallel ports, which could in principle give a much lower overhead if someone had the time to work on the driver.... Note that with the current driver, the overhead will be maximised with two systems of very different performance talking to each other, since the fast system will spend lots of time in a busy loop waiting for the other to respond. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 11:26:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26344 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tombstone.sunrem.com (tombstone.sunrem.com [206.81.134.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26339 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brandon@localhost) by tombstone.sunrem.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA04739; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:26:36 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:26:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Gillespie To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: handling SIGCHLD with multiple children Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there _ANY_ way of finding what child sent a SIGCHLD signal to the parent process? I have a situation where a parent may have multiple children processing different tasks, and the parent is waiting for one child to complete a specific task, which it cares about, but it does not care about the other children. Because of this in most instances when SIGCHLD is received it simply resets it and continues working, except for now I need to handle things differently when a specific child sends SIGCHLD. Is there any ANY way to figure out where it came from? Thanks.. -Brandon From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 12:14:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29106 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29101 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-2) with ESMTP id UAA28529; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:14:16 +0100 (BST) To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: handling SIGCHLD with multiple children In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jul 1996 12:26:35 MDT." Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 20:14:14 +0100 Message-ID: <28527.836939654@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brandon Gillespie wrote in message ID : > Is there _ANY_ way of finding what child sent a SIGCHLD signal to the > parent process? I have a situation where a parent may have multiple > children processing different tasks, and the parent is waiting for one > child to complete a specific task, which it cares about, but it does not > care about the other children. Because of this in most instances when > SIGCHLD is received it simply resets it and continues working, except for > now I need to handle things differently when a specific child sends > SIGCHLD. Is there any ANY way to figure out where it came from? Do you really need to sit on SIGCHLD or can you use waitpid()? Or you could perhaps even use waitpid() in the SIGCHLD handler, with WNOHANG option, to see which child exited... Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 12:22:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29533 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA29528; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tombstone.sunrem.com (tombstone.sunrem.com [206.81.134.54]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA06828 ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:22:25 -0700 Received: (from brandon@localhost) by tombstone.sunrem.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA04923; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:21:06 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:21:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Gillespie To: Gary Palmer cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: handling SIGCHLD with multiple children In-Reply-To: <28527.836939654@palmer.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > Brandon Gillespie wrote in message ID > : > > Is there _ANY_ way of finding what child sent a SIGCHLD signal to the > > parent process? I have a situation where a parent may have multiple > > children processing different tasks, and the parent is waiting for one > > child to complete a specific task, which it cares about, but it does not > > care about the other children. Because of this in most instances when > > SIGCHLD is received it simply resets it and continues working, except for > > now I need to handle things differently when a specific child sends > > SIGCHLD. Is there any ANY way to figure out where it came from? > > Do you really need to sit on SIGCHLD or can you use waitpid()? Or you > could perhaps even use waitpid() in the SIGCHLD handler, with WNOHANG > option, to see which child exited... The server is a object oriented database driver (with its own interpreted language), and the child is handling a backup pseudo-asyncrynously. Basically it syncronizes its database on disk, sets it read-only and forks a child which begins the actual backup. When the child is finished copying the server knows to go back to a read/write db when it receives the signal. However, there is also the possibility of other children with different purposes being forked as well. Furthermore, the server is handling network connections, and does NOT want to block while it backups, due to the time involved with a sizeable database. I suppose I could just use one of the SIGUSR* signals.. -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 12:41:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01056 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01047 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id FAA02250; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:37:31 +1000 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:37:31 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607091937.FAA02250@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: franky@pinewood.nl, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: >2G partition blues Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > if (-1 == lseek(fd,block * 512,SEEK_SET)) <=== PROBLEM > err(1,"lseek"); >When 'block' is larger than 4194303 (>2G partition), the result >'block * 512' will yield a negative number, which is cast to (off_t), >which is also NEGATIVE. >Strangely the lseek() succeeds, but the following write(2) fails: lseek() always succeeds if its fd and `whence' args are valid. Even lseeking to offset -1 succeeds, so if there is any possiblity that the offset arg is -1 and valid, then the error check must be written something like: errno = 0; if (-1 == lseek(...) && errno != 0) err(...); > write: Input/Output Error. Writing to negative offsets is unlikely to work, but it might for huge sparse file systems or /dev/[k]mem on 64-bit machines. Lseeking to negative offsets in /dev/kmem is common on 32-bit machines with 32-bit off_t's. >I suspect that FreeBSD has many more such problems, as I experience I hope most are already fixed. >There is a similar problem in sysinstall in the 2.2-960612-SNAPSHOT >release. Sysinstall aborts with: > Debugger("Slice got negative blocknumber") called. Negative block numbers are now known to be caused by writes to negative offsets on raw and buffered devices: (1) physio() doesn't check for negative blkno's or other overflows: bp->b_blkno = btodb(uio->uio_offset); Here uio_offset is 64 bits (negative values should be treated as large unsigned values so that seeks to "negative" offsets in 64-bit /dev/kmem's work) and btodb divides by DEV_BSIZE = 512, so the LHS must be 55 bits, but the LHS is only 31 bits (negative values are invalid). (2) spec_read(0 and spec_write() don't check for negative bn's or other overflows: bn = (uio->uio_offset >> DEV_BSHIFT) &~ (bscale - 1); This overflows in one more way for negative offsets. It should be written something like: off_t bn1; bn1 = btodb(uio->uio_offset) & ~(bscale - 1); bn = bn1; if (bn != bn1) overflow_error(); The original code was valid when daddr_t was the same size as off_t and disks with "negative" sizes (2G-4G) were a dream. (3) Negative blkno's don't occur for file systems because offsets < 0 or >= 2^40 aren't within any file. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 12:44:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01213 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01170 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-2) with ESMTP id UAA28683; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:43:36 +0100 (BST) To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: handling SIGCHLD with multiple children In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jul 1996 13:21:06 MDT." Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 20:43:34 +0100 Message-ID: <28681.836941414@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brandon Gillespie wrote in message ID : > The server is a object oriented database driver (with its own interpreted > language), and the child is handling a backup pseudo-asyncrynously. > Basically it syncronizes its database on disk, sets it read-only and forks > a child which begins the actual backup. When the child is finished > copying the server knows to go back to a read/write db when it receives > the signal. However, there is also the possibility of other children with > different purposes being forked as well. Furthermore, the server is > handling network connections, and does NOT want to block while it backups, > due to the time involved with a sizeable database. I suppose I could just > use one of the SIGUSR* signals.. Why not go with my second suggestion? You can trap the SIGCHLD, and in the handler do something like: void sig_child(int dummy) { int status; if (waitpid(backup_pid, &status, WNOHANG) == backup_pid) db_rw = TRUE; } This is rough code, written on the fly, and I suggest you read the wait() manpage for more details. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 13:02:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02283 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02249 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0udiz3-000I00C; Tue, 9 Jul 96 22:02 MET DST Received: by ernie.kts.org (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0udiFg-00000AC; Tue, 9 Jul 96 21:15 MET DST Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: handling SIGCHLD with multiple children To: brandon@tombstone.sunrem.com (Brandon Gillespie) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:15:16 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Brandon Gillespie" at Jul 9, 96 12:26:35 pm Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brandon Gillespie wrote: > > Is there _ANY_ way of finding what child sent a SIGCHLD signal to the > parent process? Call waitpid in the handler, it returns the pid of the child which caused the signal. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@kts.org Hamburg, Europe (A)bort, (R)etry, (I)nstall BSD ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 13:11:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02944 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com ([206.26.1.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02929 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com (daemon@localhost) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id PAA21110 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:11:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fa.tdktca.com (bsd.fa.tdktca.com [163.49.131.129]) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id PAA21095 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:11:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by fa.tdktca.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id PAA14777; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:14:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:14:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Alex Nash To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: handling SIGCHLD with multiple children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > Is there _ANY_ way of finding what child sent a SIGCHLD signal to the > parent process? I have a situation where a parent may have multiple > children processing different tasks, and the parent is waiting for one > child to complete a specific task, which it cares about, but it does not > care about the other children. Because of this in most instances when > SIGCHLD is received it simply resets it and continues working, except for > now I need to handle things differently when a specific child sends > SIGCHLD. Is there any ANY way to figure out where it came from? > > Thanks.. > > -Brandon > See the man page for wait3: RETURN VALUES If wait() returns due to a stopped or terminated child process, the pro- cess ID of the child is returned to the calling process. Otherwise, a value of -1 is returned and errno is set to indicate the error. Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 13:22:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03876 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kavemachine.magna.com.au (kavemachine.magna.com.au [203.4.215.219]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03865 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kaveman@localhost) by kavemachine.magna.com.au (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA28365; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:25:34 +1000 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:25:33 +1000 (EST) From: Julian Jenkins To: Narvi cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Andrzej Bialecki , FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Narvi wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > I have one question: when will be released the 2.1.5? I'm currently > > > running 2.0.5 and I'd realy like to do an upgrade. > > > > I'd like to do the final build in 3 days, putting it up for FTP access > > on Friday the 13th (woo, what a day for it! ;-) > > On Friday the 13th? In what month, may I ask? In July (at least in my > ca,endar, so this is IMHO) the 13th is on Saturday... He has a good chance of producing It while Friday there and the 13th here! Kaveman kaveman@magna.com.au From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 14:23:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08728 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com ([206.26.1.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08722 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com (daemon@localhost) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id QAA22183 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:23:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fa.tdktca.com (bsd.fa.tdktca.com [163.49.131.129]) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id QAA22179 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:23:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rubberneck.fa.tdktca.com (rubberneck.fa.tdktca.com [163.49.136.90]) by fa.tdktca.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA15391 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:26:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <31E2CCEA.1FF8384D@fa.tdktca.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 16:19:38 -0500 From: Steve Price Organization: TDK Corporation of America X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ATAPI CDROM support Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was thinking of trying my hand at contributing to the ATAPI support code for FreeBSD. I was wondering if anybody knew where I could get my hands on the following info: 1) Kernel hacker's guide for FreeBSD (I'm pretty sure one exists. I just can't seem to find it). 2) ATA/ATA-2 documentation. 3) Any other info that would help in my quest. Thanks in advance, for your help. Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 14:37:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09713 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (eldorado.net-tel.co.uk [193.122.171.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09705 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:37:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Received: (from root@localhost) by eldorado.net-tel.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.10) id WAA20573; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:36:10 +0100 Received: from "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=GOLD 400/C=GB/" by net-tel.co.uk (Route400-RFCGate); Tue, 9 Jul 96 22:34:20 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "eldorado" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Tue, 9 Jul 96 22:34:20 +0100 X400-Received: by mta "net-tel cambridge" in "/PRMD=net-tel/ADMD=gold 400/C=gb/"; Relayed; Tue, 9 Jul 96 21:34:18 +0000 X400-Received: by "/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"; Relayed; Tue, 9 Jul 96 21:34:18 +0000 X400-MTS-Identifier: ["/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/";hst:4758-960709213418-7ACA] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Originator: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; Date: Tue, 9 Jul 96 21:34:18 +0000 X400-Content-Identifier: Re(2): Fwd: Para Message-Id: <"16130-960709213648-4669*/G=Andrew/S=Gordon/O=NET-TEL Computer Systems Ltd/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"@MHS> To: Narviel.Beyer" "@net-tel.co.uk Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Subject: Re(2): [Fwd: Parallel laplink abuse leads to death of kernel secondary timer] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is there a way of getting information (and enough information to > for programming) on the new (ECP and also EPP ?) parallel port > modes? Also, is anyone actually working with the lpt driver to > allow bidirectional? I have been collecting info on this subject, but am unlikely to actually work on it in the near future. There is some info on the bidirectional modes at http://www.fapo.com/, though this is mostly about what it looks like from outside the PC, rather than programming information. Also somwhere on the web I found datasheets on some NatSemi chips that implement the various parallel port modes. Finally, the only complete documentation on how to program ECP mode (including how to probe for what sort of ports you have got) seems to be in the Microsoft Developer Network - I couldn't find it on the Microsoft web site, but it is on the MSDN CDs. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 14:47:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10336 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10329 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA25120; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:42:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607092142.OAA25120@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: handling SIGCHLD with multiple children To: brandon@tombstone.sunrem.com (Brandon Gillespie) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:42:22 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Brandon Gillespie" at Jul 9, 96 12:26:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is there _ANY_ way of finding what child sent a SIGCHLD signal to the > parent process? I have a situation where a parent may have multiple > children processing different tasks, and the parent is waiting for one > child to complete a specific task, which it cares about, but it does not > care about the other children. Because of this in most instances when > SIGCHLD is received it simply resets it and continues working, except for > now I need to handle things differently when a specific child sends > SIGCHLD. Is there any ANY way to figure out where it came from? Signals are persistent conditions, not events. A signal handler will block deliver of on signal behind. It is therefore not a good idea to call wait in the SIGCHLD handler itself, since it introduces apotential race condition in disposing the signal. The correct method would be to program in terms of an event loop; I don't know the architecture of the parent process, but if it is an event loop, then you can do the following: 1) Establish a SIGCHLD signal handler; if a SIGCHLD signal is received, then a volatile variable should be set to indicate one or more children need to be reaped. 2) Arrange the main loop as follows: a) check the volatile flag; dispatch to inband handler function if set b) set SIGCHLD to interrupt system calls c) call the main loop hang-pending-event call (usually select or other system call) d) on handler return, reset interrupt on SIGCHLD do only the hang is interruptable. d) check hang-pending-event return value for interrupt e) if interrupted, go to top of main loop 3) Create an inband handler function for SIGCHLD; this function will: a) call wait(2) with WNOHANG option b) on -1, processing is complete (no more PID's to return) c) use the return value to hash-index a list of child processes that are outstanding (return value is PID). d) set a flag (does not need to be volatile) to indicate that anyone waiting for this process to complete may now proceed. This approach was used successfully in a "X port monitor" to allow management of logins on up to 32 terminals (highest tested amount; highest theoretical amount was 256 becase of FD_SETSIZE) using a single process (instead of running one xdm per X terminal -- a huge memory waster on a Sun machine). This approach was also successfully used for a pipe-based linkage system, similar to that employed by Khoros, to similar effect for a tools-based image processing "drag-and-drop" workbench. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 15:19:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12911 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from central.picker.com (central.picker.com [144.54.31.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12888 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ct.picker.com by central.picker.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0udl0T-0004s9C; Tue, 9 Jul 96 18:11 EDT Received: from elmer.picker.com ([144.54.57.34]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12150; Tue, 9 Jul 96 18:10:57 EDT Received: by elmer.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA24476; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:12:49 -0400 From: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) Message-Id: <199607092212.SAA24476@elmer.picker.com> Subject: Re: ATAPI CDROM support To: stevep@fa.tdktca.com (Steve Price) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <31E2CCEA.1FF8384D@fa.tdktca.com> from "Steve Price" at Jul 9, 96 04:19:38 pm Reply-To: rhh@ct.picker.com Organization: Picker International, CT Division X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I was thinking of trying my hand at contributing to the ATAPI support >code for FreeBSD. I was wondering if anybody knew where I could get my >hands on the following info: > ... > 2) ATA/ATA-2 documentation. Here are a few sites that I found ATA/ATAPI/EIDE/etc. specs on recently: ftp://fission.dt.wdc.com/pub/otherdocs ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/cl/clau/ide_ata ftp://ftp.symbios.com/pub/standards/io/ Randall Hopper rhh@ct.picker.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 15:25:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13383 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from novell.com (prv-ums.Provo.Novell.COM [137.65.40.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13378 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-PRV-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 09 Jul 1996 16:25:23 -0600 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 16:32:38 -0600 From: Darren Davis To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: FW: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability (fwd) Encoding: 45 Text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Subject: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability (fwd)>CERT(sm) Advisory CA-96.13>July 4, 1996>>Topic: ID4 virus, Alien/OS Vulnerability>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------->>The CERT Coordination Center has received reports of weaknesses in>Alien/OS that can allow species with primitive information sciences>technology to initiate denial-of-service attacks against MotherShip(tm)>hosts. One report of exploitation of this bug has been received.>>When attempting takeover of planets inhabited by such races, a trojan>horse attack is possible that permits local access to the MotherShip host,>enabling the implantation of executable code with full root access to>mission-critical security features of the operating system.>>The vulnerability exists in versions of EvilAliens' Alien/OS 34762.12.1 or>later, and all versions of Microsoft's Windows/95. CERT advises against>initiating further planet takeover actions until patches are available>from these vendors. If planet takeover is absolutely necessary, CERT>advises that affected sites apply the workarounds as specified below.>>As we receive additional information relating to this advisory, we will>place it in>> ftp://info.cert.org/pub/cert_advisories/CA-96.13.README>>We encourage you to check our README files regularly for updates on>advisories that relate to your site.>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------->>I. Description>> Alien/OS contains a security vulnerability, which strangely enough> can be exploited by a primitive race running Windows/95. Although> Alien/OS has been extensively field tested over millions of years by> EvilAliens, Inc., the bug was only recently discovered during a> routine invasion of a backwater planet. EvilAliens notes that> the operating system had never before been tested against a race> with "such a kick-ass president.">> The vulnerability allows the insertion of executable code with> root access to key security features of the operating system. In> particular, such code can disable the NiftyGreenShield (tm)> subsystem, allowing child processes to be terminated by unauthorized> users.>> Additionally, Alien/OS networking protocols can provide a> low-bandwidth covert timing channel to a determined attacker.>>>II. Impact>> Non-privileged primitive users can cause the total destruction of> your entire invasion fleet and gain unauthorized access to> files.>>>III. Solution>> EvilAliens has supplied a workaround and a patch, as follows:>> A. Workaround>> To prevent unauthorized insertion of executables, install a> firewall to selectively vaporize incoming packets that do not> contain valid aliens. Also, disable the "Java" option in> Netscape.>> To eliminate the covert timing channel, remove untrusted> hosts from routing tables. As tempting as it is, do not use> target species' own satellites against them.>>> B. Patch>> As root, install the "evil" package from the distribution tape.>> (Optionally) save a copy of the existing /usr/bin/sendmail and> modify its permission to prevent misuse.>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------->>The CERT Coordination Center thanks Jeff Goldblum and Fjkxdtssss for>providing information for this advisory.>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>> From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 15:31:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13625 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13618 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA07742; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:29:54 +1000 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:29:54 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607092229.IAA07742@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hackers@freebsd.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: Odd hang in device driver... Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm seeing a 'Panic: double fault' hang that has me wondering about >the save size of auto data on the kernel stack. I have a function I'll >call 'fooread()' - it's a device driver read function. The kernel stack is about 7K. It has to hold sometimes deeply nested system calls and up to about 10 levels of nested interrupts and traps. It may already be too small for some (extremely rare) worst cases. Don't put large buffers on it. ttwrite() is careful to use only a 100 byte buffer. >To handle some serious application latency problems (not easily curable 8( ) >I recently upped the receive buffer from 1K to 4K, and have subsequently >started seeing these double-fault hangs. What has me wondering about 1K was already dangerously large. >And as an aside which would help me avoid the double copy altogether, is >it fair to say that : > uiomove(buf, a, uio); > uiomove(buf + a, b, uio); >would have the same effect as > uiomove(buf, a + b, uio); >ie. is it possible to call uiomove more than once in a read/write function? Yes, at least provided (a + b) < (residual count before first uiomove). uiomove() just copies the data and advances the pointer and reduces the residual count in the uio struct. This is too complicated to do directly because the user buffers may be split up. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 16:06:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16240 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16225 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-2) with ESMTP id AAA29324; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:05:37 +0100 (BST) To: Darren Davis cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: FW: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jul 1996 16:32:38 MDT." Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:05:36 +0100 Message-ID: <29322.836953536@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Darren Davis wrote in message ID : > Subject: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability (fwd)>CERT(sm) > Advisory CA-96.13>July 4, 1996>>Topic: ID4 virus, Alien/OS Vulnerability>>--- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------>>The Perhaps someone could send on a copy which HASN'T been infected with the Groupwise virus, and is slightly more legible as a result? :-) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 16:34:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA17873 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from novell.com (sjf-mh.sjf.novell.com [130.57.10.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA17858 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-SJF-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 09 Jul 1996 16:33:54 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 16:41:09 -0700 From: Darren Davis To: gpalmer@novell.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FW: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability (fwd) - Reply Encoding: 12 Text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> "Gary Palmer" 7/ 9 5:05pm >>> ThePerhaps someone could send on a copy which HASN'T been infected withthe Groupwise virus, and is slightly more legible as a result? :-)Gary--Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team MemberFreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info >>> If only I could! Don't get me started. :-) Darren R. Davis Senior Software Engineer Novell, Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 16:50:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA18864 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from novell.com (nj-ums.fpk.novell.com [147.2.128.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA18859 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-NJ-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 09 Jul 1996 18:50:20 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 19:57:59 -0400 From: Darren Davis To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, DARREND@novell.com Subject: FW: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability (fwd) - Reply Encoding: 6 Text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It was just pointed out to me that this details some of the plot to Independance Day. Sorry to all those that have not seen the movie, I thought it was funny and wanted to share. Darren From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 17:18:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA20100 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.aros.net (root@shell.aros.net [205.164.111.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA20094 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from angio@localhost) by shell.aros.net (8.7.5/Unknown) id SAA10845 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:18:08 -0600 (MDT) From: Dave Andersen Message-Id: <199607100018.SAA10845@shell.aros.net> Subject: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulerability To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:18:08 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Subject: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability (fwd) ============================================================================= CERT(sm) Advisory CA-96.13 July 4, 1996 Topic: ID4 virus, Alien/OS Vulnerability ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The CERT Coordination Center has received reports of weaknesses in Alien/OS that can allow species with primitive information sciences technology to initiate denial-of-service attacks against MotherShip(tm) hosts. One report of exploitation of this bug has been received. When attempting takeover of planets inhabited by such races, a trojan horse attack is possible that permits local access to the MotherShip host, enabling the implantation of executable code with full root access to mission-critical security features of the operating system. The vulnerability exists in versions of EvilAliens' Alien/OS 34762.12.1 or later, and all versions of Microsoft's Windows/95. CERT advises against initiating further planet takeover actions until patches are available from these vendors. If planet takeover is absolutely necessary, CERT advises that affected sites apply the workarounds as specified below. As we receive additional information relating to this advisory, we will place it in ftp://info.cert.org/pub/cert_advisories/CA-96.13.README We encourage you to check our README files regularly for updates on advisories that relate to your site. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I. Description Alien/OS contains a security vulnerability, which strangely enough can be exploited by a primitive race running Windows/95. Although Alien/OS has been extensively field tested over millions of years by EvilAliens, Inc., the bug was only recently discovered during a routine invasion of a backwater planet. EvilAliens notes that the operating system had never before been tested against a race with "such a kick-ass president." The vulnerability allows the insertion of executable code with root access to key security features of the operating system. In particular, such code can disable the NiftyGreenShield (tm) subsystem, allowing child processes to be terminated by unauthorized users. Additionally, Alien/OS networking protocols can provide a low-bandwidth covert timing channel to a determined attacker. II. Impact Non-privileged primitive users can cause the total destruction of your entire invasion fleet and gain unauthorized access to files. III. Solution EvilAliens has supplied a workaround and a patch, as follows: A. Workaround To prevent unauthorized insertion of executables, install a firewall to selectively vaporize incoming packets that do not contain valid aliens. Also, disable the "Java" option in Netscape. To eliminate the covert timing channel, remove untrusted hosts from routing tables. As tempting as it is, do not use target species' own satellites against them. B. Patch As root, install the "evil" package from the distribution tape. (Optionally) save a copy of the existing /usr/bin/sendmail and modify its permission to prevent misuse. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The CERT Coordination Center thanks Jeff Goldblum and Fjkxdtssss for providing information for this advisory. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you believe that your mothership, planet, or extensive system of devoured planets have been compromised, contact the CERT Coordination Center or your representative in the Forum of Incident Response and Security Teams (FIRST). We strongly urge you to encrypt any sensitive information you send by email or interplanetary broadcast. Please do not use host systems satellites for the transmission of sensitive information. The CERT Coordination Center can support a shared DES key and PGP. Contact the CERT staff for more information. Location of CERT PGP key ftp://info.cert.org/pub/CERT_PGP.key CERT Contact Information ------------------------ Email cert@cert.org Phone +1 412-268-7090 (24-hour hotline) CERT personnel answer 8:30-5:00 p.m. EST (GMT-5)/EDT(GMT-4), and are on call for emergencies during other hours. Fax +1 412-268-6989 Postal address CERT Coordination Center Software Engineering Institute Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890 USA To be added to our mailing list for CERT advisories and bulletins, send your email address to cert-advisory-request@cert.org CERT publications, information about FIRST representatives, and other security-related information are available for anonymous FTP from security-related information are available for anonymous FTP from ftp://info.cert.org/pub/ CERT advisories and bulletins are also posted on the USENET newsgroup comp.security.announce -- angio@aros.net Complete virtual hosting and business-oriented system administration Internet services. (WWW, FTP, email) http://www.aros.net/ http://www.aros.net/about/virtual "There are only two industries that refer to their customers as 'users'." From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 18:36:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA24072 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24067 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id BAA28489; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:35:49 GMT Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:35:49 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock Reply-To: Michael Hancock To: Terry Lambert cc: Brandon Gillespie , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: handling SIGCHLD with multiple children In-Reply-To: <199607092142.OAA25120@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > The correct method would be to program in terms of an event loop; I > don't know the architecture of the parent process, but if it is an > event loop, then you can do the following: You might want to contact Paul Vixie for his EventLib. It's a work in progress the last time I checked but it looked pretty complete. BIND and INND will probably be using this lib. -mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 18:38:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA24131 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.keanesea.com (io.keanesea.com [206.213.110.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA24119 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRIDAY ([144.7.51.69]) by io.keanesea.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA06852 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:37:51 -0700 Received: by FRIDAY with Microsoft Mail id <01BB6DC5.75E5A5F0@FRIDAY>; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:35:53 -0700 Message-ID: <01BB6DC5.75E5A5F0@FRIDAY> From: Cyrus Gray To: "'FreeBSD Hackers'" Subject: Here's a less hacked up copy of the CERT Alien / OS Advisory Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:35:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Subject: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability From: CERT Bulletin Newsgroups: comp.security.announce, rec.humor ============================================================================= CERT(sm) Advisory CA-96.13 July 4, 1996 Topic: ID4 virus, Alien/OS Vulnerability - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The CERT Coordination Center has received reports of weaknesses in Alien/OS that can allow species with primitive information sciences technology to initiate denial-of-service attacks against MotherShip(tm) hosts. One report of exploitation of this bug has been received. When attempting takeover of planets inhabited by such races, a trojan horse attack is possible that permits local access to the MotherShip host, enabling the implantation of executable code with full root access to mission-critical security features of the operating system. The vulnerability exists in versions of EvilAliens' Alien/OS 34762.12.1 or later, and all versions of Microsoft's Windows/95. CERT advises against initiating further planet takeover actions until patches are available from these vendors. If planet takeover is absolutely necessary, CERT advises that affected sites apply the workarounds as specified below. As we receive additional information relating to this advisory, we will place it in ftp://info.cert.org/pub/cert_advisories/CA-96.13.README We encourage you to check our README files regularly for updates on advisories that relate to your site. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I. Description Alien/OS contains a security vulnerability, which strangely enough can be exploited by a primitive race running Windows/95. Although Alien/OS has been extensively field tested over millions of years by EvilAliens, Inc., the bug was only recently discovered during a routine invasion of a backwater planet. EvilAliens notes that the operating system had never before been tested against a race with "such a kick-ass president." The vulnerability allows the insertion of executable code with root access to key security features of the operating system. In particular, such code can disable the NiftyGreenShield (tm) subsystem, allowing child processes to be terminated by unauthorized users. Additionally, Alien/OS networking protocols can provide a low-bandwidth covert timing channel to a determined attacker. II. Impact Non-privileged primitive users can cause the total destruction of your entire invasion fleet and gain unauthorized access to files. III. Solution EvilAliens has supplied a workaround and a patch, as follows: A. Workaround To prevent unauthorized insertion of executables, install a firewall to selectively vaporize incoming packets that do not contain valid aliens. Also, disable the "Java" option in Netscape. To eliminate the covert timing channel, remove untrusted hosts from routing tables. As tempting as it is, do not use target species' own satellites against them. B. Patch As root, install the "evil" package from the distribution tape. (Optionally) save a copy of the existing /usr/bin/sendmail and modify its permission to prevent misuse. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The CERT Coordination Center thanks Jeff Goldblum and Fjkxdtssss for providing information for this advisory. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you believe that your system has been compromised, contact the CERT Coordination Center or your representative in the Forum of Incident Response and Security Teams (FIRST). We strongly urge you to encrypt any sensitive information you send by email. The CERT Coordination Center can support a shared DES key and PGP. Contact the CERT staff for more information. Location of CERT PGP key ftp://info.cert.org/pub/CERT_PGP.key CERT Contact Information - ------------------------ Email cert@cert.org Phone +1 412-268-7090 (24-hour hotline) CERT personnel answer 8:30-5:00 p.m. EST (GMT-5)/EDT(GMT-4), and are on call for emergencies during other hours. Fax +1 412-268-6989 Postal address CERT Coordination Center Software Engineering Institute Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890 USA CERT publications, information about FIRST representatives, and other security-related information are available for anonymous FTP from http://www.cert.org/ ftp://info.cert.org/pub/ CERT advisories and bulletins are also posted on the USENET newsgroup comp.security.announce To be added to our mailing list for CERT advisories and bulletins, send your email address to cert-advisory-request@cert.org Copyright 1996 Carnegie Mellon University This material may be reproduced and distributed without permission provided it is used for noncommercial purposes and the copyright statement is included. CERT is a service mark of Carnegie Mellon University. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 18:38:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA24188 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net (relay-4.mail.demon.net [158.152.1.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA24183 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ae25809; 10 Jul 96 1:38 GMT Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa14196; 10 Jul 96 1:44 +0100 Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA03839; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:16:41 GMT Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:16:41 GMT Message-Id: <199607092316.XAA03839@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, abial@warman.org.pl, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-reply-to: <7617.836909311@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Friday the 13th? In what month, may I ask? In July (at least in my > > ca,endar, so this is IMHO) the 13th is on Saturday... > > [blush] - I miscounted! You're right, it's Friday the 12th. I guess Confucius he-say wise man no count date when he have computer with cal(1) command :-) > the superstitious types can relax again now. :-) There's a Friday 13th in December, which might be an auspicious release date for 2.2... -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 20:56:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03919 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03913 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA20203; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607100355.UAA20203@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: handling SIGCHLD with multiple children In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 09 Jul 96 12:26:35 -0600. Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 20:55:52 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Is there _ANY_ way of finding what child sent a SIGCHLD signal to the >parent process? I have a situation where a parent may have multiple >children processing different tasks, and the parent is waiting for one >child to complete a specific task, which it cares about, but it does not >care about the other children. Because of this in most instances when >SIGCHLD is received it simply resets it and continues working, except for >now I need to handle things differently when a specific child sends >SIGCHLD. Is there any ANY way to figure out where it came from? What about using pipes and select? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jul 9 21:27:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA05494 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA05489 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA12334 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:27:12 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Some recent changes to GENERIC Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 21:27:11 -0700 Message-ID: <12325.836972831@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk After speaking with David on the phone, I decided to remove the following entries from GENERIC: sio2 sio3 lpt2 mcd1 lnc1 I would also like to remove: ed1 lp1 But will wait for more feedback on that (I think that ed1 should at least go). I've undertaken this housecleaning because I feel that GENERIC has built up more than its fair share of historical cruft (many of the doubled entries predating userconfig) and we need to get back to the concept of GENERIC as a "just get it installed with as little wasted space as possible so that it still fits on one boot floppy" kind of kernel image. As I said, many of the items I elimiated were also historical relics from before userconfig and there's no reason in the world why you now can't just tweak, say, sio0 to match whatever port you like (as goes for all the ethernet drivers). Once you're up, you can then compile a kernel which matches your various audio/video/controller cards and jettison GENERIC like a multi-stage rocket discards its booster stage. :-) I also don't really want to get into an extended debate on how someone really liked the handiness of having, say, sio2 and sio3 around so that they never had to compile a kernel to recognise their 4-port serial gommulator card. GENERIC isn't meant to please everyone or it'd have sound blaster and joystick entries and in there too. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 00:02:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA16169 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA16163 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from thomas@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA18732; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:01:54 +0200 From: Thomas Gellekum Message-Id: <199607100701.JAA18732@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: Re(2): [Fwd: Parallel laplink abuse leads to death of kernel secondary timer] To: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:01:54 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: Narviel.Beyer"@net-tel.co.uk, "@net-tel.co.uk, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <"16130-960709213648-4669*/G=Andrew/S=Gordon/O=NET-TEL from "Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk" at "Jul 9, 96 09:34:18 pm" Organization: Institut f. Hochfrequenztechnik, RWTH Aachen X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk wrote: > > Is there a way of getting information (and enough information to > > for programming) on the new (ECP and also EPP ?) parallel port > > modes? Also, is anyone actually working with the lpt driver to > > allow bidirectional? > I have been collecting info on this subject, but am unlikely to > actually work on it in the near future. You can get the EPP specs directly from Xircom. Just send an e-mail to tech-support; the address is somewhere below http://www.xircom.com. tg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 00:22:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17099 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA17090 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA02467; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:22:16 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA26773; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:22:05 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA09135; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:20:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607100720.JAA09135@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Here's a less hacked up copy of the CERT Alien / OS Advisory To: cgray@keanesea.com (Cyrus Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:20:18 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <01BB6DC5.75E5A5F0@FRIDAY> from Cyrus Gray at "Jul 9, 96 06:35:51 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Cyrus Gray wrote: > Subject: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability > From: CERT Bulletin > Newsgroups: comp.security.announce, rec.humor Wrong mailing list. Post material of this kind to freebsd-chat, please. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 00:47:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA18767 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA18762; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00363; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:46:25 +0200 (MET DST) To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Parallel laplink abuse leads to death of kernel secondary timer] In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:29:51 MDT." <199607090529.XAA16499@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:46:24 +0200 Message-ID: <361.836984784@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, lets keep in mind that PLIP is a disgusting thing in the first place, but as we all know, in certain circumstances that may not matter. I agree that it should work intelligently and not do odd things to your system in any set of circumstances, but I don't think that I will be able to find the time needed for the correct change to this, until this problems stands in my way 3AM some morning or something similar. Sorry. Poul-Henning PS: Bruce has pointed out that tweaking which spl-level we use could be used to do it, (try splvm() and see if it helps :-) In message <199607090529.XAA16499@rocky.mt.sri.com>, Nate Williams writes: >> >> Yow, this one's pretty cool! :-) I guess we always knew that PLIP was a >> high-overhead proposition, but it's interesting to see that it only >> croaks on the Pentium. > >FWIW, I responded to this on Usenet and basically blamed his hardware. >I've used PLIP to mount NFS disks and done build worlds on the two >laptops I have, one a 486/75, and the other a Pentium/75. The 'servers' >have been my 486/66 at home and my P-100 ASUS box at work, and I've >never seen any problems with the timers dying. NFS mounting the disks >over PLIP was a *really* good way of generating an incredibly high >interrupt load on my 486/66, although the Pentium didn't seem to mind it >as much. Both laptops seemed to not notice it much since I suspect they >were CPU and/or I/O bound most of the time. > > >Nate -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 00:52:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA18933 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plato.ucsalf.ac.uk (plato.ucsalf.ac.uk [193.62.40.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA18927; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by plato.ucsalf.ac.uk with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0udu48-000k5WC; Wed, 10 Jul 96 08:52 WET DST Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:52:08 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Powell To: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-policy@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RARP and bootparamd per NetBSD [was Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ???] In-Reply-To: <199607091616.JAA08760@kongur> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu wrote: > > >>our DOS menu system. We currently do it with Linux. However, I'd prefer to > > >>do it with FreeBSD, for obvious reasons. NETNOOT.COM does not work > > >>if there is already a network driver loaded, as there is in our case. > > >>Is there anything afoot allow the kernel to be configured with some of > > >>the netboot.com functionality into the kernel? > > > > > >I experienced that QEMM screws up when running NETBOOT, so I simply > > >created a boot menu under MS-DOS 6.22 and let people choose it at > > >boot time - no network driver conflicts, no memory manager conflicts. > > > > Yeah, but I currently do this with Linux. The user's can simply select an > > option from our PC LAN menu system. FreeBSD can't do this, AFAIK. > > If the network drivers are Novell, when the user wants an X-terminal, you > could unload them (with the /U switch) and then run netboot.com. They aren't Netware drivers. From looking at NetBSD-1.1 I see that it has similar functionality to Sun systems. A diskless system can obtain it's own IP address using RARP and then use RPC to talk to a bootparamd for further info. Comparing NetBSD and FreeBSD source we find that NetBSD has an extra file under the sys tree, nfs/nfs_boot.c. The code in this file performs the RARP request and also the RPC chat with the bootparamd. The code is called from the code in file nfs/nfs_vfsops.c. Looking in FreeBSD's nfs/nfs_vfsops.c at the function nfs_mountroot() the comments are: /* * Mount a remote root fs via. nfs. This depends on the info in the * nfs_diskless structure that has been filled in properly by some primary * bootstrap. * It goes something like this: * - do enough of "ifconfig" by calling ifioctl() so that the system * can talk to the server * - If nfs_diskless.mygateway is filled in, use that address as * a default gateway. * - hand craft the swap nfs vnode hanging off a fake mount point * if swdevt[0].sw_dev == NODEV * - build the rootfs mount point and call mountnfs() to do the rest. */ However, NetBSD's comment for the same are [nfs_boot_init() is in the nfs_boot.c file]: /* * Mount a remote root fs via. NFS. It goes like this: * - Call nfs_boot_init() to fill in the nfs_diskless struct * (using RARP, bootparam RPC, mountd RPC) * - hand craft the swap nfs vnode hanging off a fake mount point * if swdevt[0].sw_dev == NODEV * - build the rootfs mount point and call mountnfs() to do the rest. */ Thus it's just the ability to fill-out it's own nfs_diskless struct that FreeBSD lacks. Anyone know who to chat with regarding getting this put in the kernel? > Maybe something like this would work? > > -- David (obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu) Mark Powell - Senior Network Technician - Room: C806 Computer Services Unit, University College Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK. Tel: +44 161 745 3376 Fax: +44 161 736 3596 Email: mark@ucsalf.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key) Home Page From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 00:59:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA19214 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA19203 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA03592; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:52:47 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA27015; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:52:45 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA09316; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:32:06 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607100732.JAA09316@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:32:06 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <12325.836972831@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jul 9, 96 09:27:11 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > After speaking with David on the phone, I decided to remove the > following entries from GENERIC: > > sio2 > sio3 > lpt2 > mcd1 > lnc1 > > I would also like to remove: > > ed1 > lp1 Only two arguments here: . GENERIC is known to run on many installed machines, and while you are right that it is possible (and desirable) to compile your kernel from scratch once you are installed, many people decide not to do it, for various reasons. (Among them, you have to sacrify 20 MB of space for a kernel compilation, which is far too much for someone with only a 100 MB disk.) . Your above changes will at best save 10 KB of kernel size, and at worst not even a single byte in the executable. They don't eliminate a driver, all they save is just a few entries in the struct sc_foo sc_foo[] tables which are in the kernel bss anyway. So don't expect a revolution in what will fit on your installation floppy. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 01:02:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19457 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19450 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uduEJ-000Qc7C; Wed, 10 Jul 96 10:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA21994; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:30:43 +0200 Message-Id: <199607100730.JAA21994@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: 2.1.5-RELEASE ? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:30:43 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) In-Reply-To: <7617.836909311@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 9, 96 03:48:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > >> On Friday the 13th? In what month, may I ask? In July (at least in my >> ca,endar, so this is IMHO) the 13th is on Saturday... > > [blush] - I miscounted! You're right, it's Friday the 12th. I guess > the superstitious types can relax again now. :-) And I thought this was a veiled insinuation that you weren't going to release until September :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 01:03:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19490 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19484 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uduEH-000QbNC; Wed, 10 Jul 96 10:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA22027 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:37:02 +0200 Message-Id: <199607100737.JAA22027@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: bootable CD's (fwd) To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:37:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk James Leppek writes: > From owner-freebsd-questions Mon Jul 8 07:25:35 1996 > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 10:13:08 EDT > > Has anyone created a "bootable" CD? My new motherboard supports > booting from the CD but I am not sure how to create such a CD. > Thanks for any help This looks like a "must have". Does anybody know any details of the format? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 01:39:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA22384 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA22379 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA22914; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:05:12 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199607100835.SAA22914@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Odd hang in device driver... To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:05:11 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au In-Reply-To: <199607092229.IAA07742@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jul 10, 96 08:29:54 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans stands accused of saying: > > >I'm seeing a 'Panic: double fault' hang that has me wondering about > >the save size of auto data on the kernel stack. I have a function I'll > >call 'fooread()' - it's a device driver read function. > > The kernel stack is about 7K. It has to hold sometimes deeply nested > system calls and up to about 10 levels of nested interrupts and traps. > It may already be too small for some (extremely rare) worst cases. > Don't put large buffers on it. ttwrite() is careful to use only a 100 > byte buffer. Foo! I've been an application programmer too long; stack size limits never ocurred to me. I moved the copy buffers out into the device structure, but it sounds like uiomove will renmder that unnecessary. > Yes, at least provided (a + b) < (residual count before first uiomove). > uiomove() just copies the data and advances the pointer and reduces the > residual count in the uio struct. This is too complicated to do directly > because the user buffers may be split up. Understood - but I wasn't sure how much state was kept in the uio structure, and reading the code didn't make it terribly clear. Thanks! > Bruce -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 01:54:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA23650 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA23640 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA02626; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:54:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Powell cc: obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RARP and bootparamd per NetBSD [was Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ???] In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:52:08 BST." Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:54:15 -0700 Message-ID: <2624.836988855@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Thus it's just the ability to fill-out it's own nfs_diskless struct that > FreeBSD lacks. > Anyone know who to chat with regarding getting this put in the kernel? Well, there are probably at least 3 people who could do this, Martin Renters, Poul-Henning Kamp and Garrett Wollman being names which most quickly come to mind, but whether or not one of them actually finds the time or inclination to do this after reading your posting to -hackers is another thing. To far better your odds, I'd suggest culling out the changes from NetBSD and submitting them as context diffs relative to the appropriate files in FreeBSD-current. You can submit them with send-pr (most recommended) or you can send them in an email to committers@freebsd.org and plead for a reviewer. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 02:19:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA25200 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntserv.webleicester.co.uk (ntserv.webleicester.co.uk [206.249.75.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA25194 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lansys41.webleicester.co.uk by ntserv.webleicester.co.uk (NTMail 3.02.07) with ESMTP id aa015704 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:19:01 +0100 Received: from LANSYS41/SpoolDir by lansys41.webleicester.co.uk (Mercury 1.21); 10 Jul 96 10:12:03 +0000 Received: from SpoolDir by LANSYS41 (Mercury 1.22-b2); 10 Jul 96 10:11:57 +0000 From: "Phil E Taylor" Organization: Lan Systems To: Steve Price Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:11:54 GMT Subject: Re: ATAPI CDROM support Reply-to: phil@lansystems.co.uk CC: hackers@freebsd.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Message-ID: <32CD107734A@lansys41.webleicester.co.uk> X-Info: The Web Factory (Leicester) Electronic Mail System Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For a generic 4.4BSD kernel guide you will go a long way to beat the McKusick book 'The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD operating system' ISBN 0-201-54979-4. > I was thinking of trying my hand at contributing to the ATAPI support > code for FreeBSD. I was wondering if anybody knew where I could get my > hands on the following info: > > 1) Kernel hacker's guide for FreeBSD (I'm pretty sure one > exists. I just can't seem to find it). > > 2) ATA/ATA-2 documentation. > > 3) Any other info that would help in my quest. > > Thanks in advance, for your help. > > Steve > Phil Taylor Business : phil@lansystems.co.uk Personal : phil@taylor.org.uk LAN Systems - LAN/WAN Specialists Tel: (Direct Line) +44 (116) 223 0033 (Main Number) +44 (116) 255 9961 (Facsimile) +44 (116) 255 8861 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 02:20:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA25375 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA25367; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00590; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:20:12 +0200 (MET DST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mark Powell , obrien@cs.ucdavis.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RARP and bootparamd per NetBSD [was Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ???] In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:54:15 PDT." <2624.836988855@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:20:12 +0200 Message-ID: <588.836990412@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I must have missed the original email, I don't recall the subject. patches are most welcome of course. Poul-Henning In message <2624.836988855@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> Thus it's just the ability to fill-out it's own nfs_diskless struct that >> FreeBSD lacks. >> Anyone know who to chat with regarding getting this put in the kernel? > >Well, there are probably at least 3 people who could do this, Martin >Renters, Poul-Henning Kamp and Garrett Wollman being names which most >quickly come to mind, but whether or not one of them actually finds >the time or inclination to do this after reading your posting to >-hackers is another thing. To far better your odds, I'd suggest >culling out the changes from NetBSD and submitting them as context >diffs relative to the appropriate files in FreeBSD-current. You can >submit them with send-pr (most recommended) or you can send them in an >email to committers@freebsd.org and plead for a reviewer. :-) > > Jordan -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 02:31:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA25856 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plato.ucsalf.ac.uk (plato.ucsalf.ac.uk [193.62.40.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA25845; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by plato.ucsalf.ac.uk with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0udvcA-000k5WC; Wed, 10 Jul 96 10:31 WET DST Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:31:22 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Powell To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RARP and bootparamd per NetBSD [was Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ???] In-Reply-To: <588.836990412@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > I must have missed the original email, I don't recall the subject. Basically getting the kernel, if it has no rootfs to perform a RARP request to get it's IP address. From NetBSD-current sys/nfs/nfs_boot.c: /* * Support for NFS diskless booting, specifically getting information * about where to boot from, what pathnames, etc. * * This implememtation uses RARP and the bootparam RPC. * We are forced to implement RPC anyway (to get file handles) * so we might as well take advantage of it for bootparam too. * * The diskless boot sequence goes as follows: * (1) Use RARP to get our interface address * (2) Use RPC/bootparam/whoami to get our hostname, * our IP address, and the server's IP address. * (3) Use RPC/bootparam/getfile to get the root path * (4) Use RPC/mountd to get the root file handle * (5) Use RPC/bootparam/getfile to get the swap path * (6) Use RPC/mountd to get the swap file handle * * (This happens to be the way Sun does it too.) */ > patches are most welcome of course. Well... I have identified the section of code that needs working on, but I've not modified a FreeBSD kernel, previously. It'll need some learning curve climbing. Thought it might be elementary for one of the kernel aces to slip in, between coffees, so to speak :) > Poul-Henning > > In message <2624.836988855@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > >> Thus it's just the ability to fill-out it's own nfs_diskless struct that > >> FreeBSD lacks. > >> Anyone know who to chat with regarding getting this put in the kernel? > > > >Well, there are probably at least 3 people who could do this, Martin > >Renters, Poul-Henning Kamp and Garrett Wollman being names which most > >quickly come to mind, but whether or not one of them actually finds > >the time or inclination to do this after reading your posting to > >-hackers is another thing. To far better your odds, I'd suggest > >culling out the changes from NetBSD and submitting them as context > >diffs relative to the appropriate files in FreeBSD-current. You can > >submit them with send-pr (most recommended) or you can send them in an > >email to committers@freebsd.org and plead for a reviewer. :-) > > > > Jordan > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. > Mark Powell - Senior Network Technician - Room: C806 Computer Services Unit, University College Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK. Tel: +44 161 745 3376 Fax: +44 161 736 3596 Email: mark@ucsalf.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key) Home Page From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 02:36:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA26314 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA26280; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00615; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:35:25 +0200 (MET DST) To: Mark Powell cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RARP and bootparamd per NetBSD [was Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ???] In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:31:22 BST." Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:35:24 +0200 Message-ID: <613.836991324@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , Mark Powell writes: >On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> >> I must have missed the original email, I don't recall the subject. > >Basically getting the kernel, if it has no rootfs to perform a RARP >request to get it's IP address. From NetBSD-current sys/nfs/nfs_boot.c: > Hmm, nice... >> patches are most welcome of course. > >Well... I have identified the section of code that needs working on, but >I've not modified a FreeBSD kernel, previously. It'll need some learning >curve climbing. Thought it might be elementary for one of the kernel aces >to slip in, between coffees, so to speak :) Well, I only drink tea, so there is never any time between coffees for me :-/ I'll put it on my list, but it will be down at the far end for now, and that means about 80 entries on top of this one :-( I suggest you give it a shot, it shouldn't be that hard actually... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 02:41:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA26923 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plato.ucsalf.ac.uk (plato.ucsalf.ac.uk [193.62.40.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA26901; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by plato.ucsalf.ac.uk with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0udvlf-000k5YC; Wed, 10 Jul 96 10:41 WET DST Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:41:11 +0100 (BST) From: Mark Powell To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RARP and bootparamd per NetBSD [was Re: Root filesystem on NFS, Linux style ???] In-Reply-To: <613.836991324@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , Mark > Powell writes: > >Well... I have identified the section of code that needs working on, but > >I've not modified a FreeBSD kernel, previously. It'll need some learning > >curve climbing. Thought it might be elementary for one of the kernel aces > >to slip in, between coffees, so to speak :) > > Well, I only drink tea, so there is never any time between coffees for me :-/ Hey. I assumed you were an American? Drinking tea? Whatever next. > I'll put it on my list, but it will be down at the far end for now, and > that means about 80 entries on top of this one :-( Okay, cheers. > I suggest you give it a shot, it shouldn't be that hard actually... Okay. Before I start. I am currently running -stable on this box. I assume the mods. would be most useful against current? If so does that require a complete current install? I've just grabbed the -current kernel, but it doesn't compile. > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. Mark Powell - Senior Network Technician - Room: C806 Computer Services Unit, University College Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK. Tel: +44 161 745 3376 Fax: +44 161 736 3596 Email: mark@ucsalf.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key) Home Page From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 05:50:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA09746 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mh004.infi.net (mailhost.infi.net [205.219.238.95]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA09741 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SimsS-w95.ric.pmu.com by mh004.infi.net with SMTP (Infinet-S-3.3) id IAA29257; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199607101250.IAA29257@mh004.infi.net> From: "Steve Sims" To: Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:49:04 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1085 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: Jordan K. Hubbard [snip] > I would also like to remove: > > ed1 > lp1 > > But will wait for more feedback on that (I think that ed1 should at > least go). I've undertaken this housecleaning because I feel that > GENERIC has built up more than its fair share of historical cruft > (many of the doubled entries predating userconfig) and we need to get > back to the concept of GENERIC as a "just get it installed with as > little wasted space as possible so that it still fits on one boot > floppy" kind of kernel image. Sorry, Jordan, I don't agree with yanking the ed1 device at all. The defaults for the ed0 interface are, at least in my copy of GENERIC, are 5/280. Nearly ALL of the NE-2000 clones (and there are gazillions of 'em) can't use 0x280, so the ed1 device becomes the E-net port on a clean install; 5/300 being a fairly standard HW setup. (And believe me, I've used just about every el-cheapo, $19 NE2K clone on the planet.) In fact, a quick run through the docs for the NE-2000 clones that I have handy (four different ones are at hand) show that the available port address base(es) for them are: 300, 320, 340 and 360. No 0x280 in sight. These included some old "jumperable" ones as well as those accursed jumperless ones that need a DOS kick-start to get 'em configured right. Yup, I know that one may '-c' the boot process and tweak the settings, but it seems like one extra step for little benefit. (For my benefit, can anyone explain why the default port address for ed0 is 0x280? I assume some historical reason, but I really don't know the details....) OK, how 'bout this: I'll endorse nuking the ed1 device, but only if the default settings for the ed0 device are changed to 5/300 in GENERIC. What say? ...sjs... From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 06:07:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA10625 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [206.224.65.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA10618 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA26734 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:07:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob Willcox Message-Id: <199607101307.IAA26734@luke.pmr.com> Subject: vi window resizing problmes To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (freebsd-hackers) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:07:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On a couple of my systems here I am having problems with vi recognizing changes in xterm window size. If I resize the window before starting vi, it thinks the window is still the dimensions that it was when originally started. If I resize it while running vi, it appears that vi gets confused and doesn't redraw the screen properly at all. The two failing systems are the ones that I have most recently done a make world on. One of them is at the July 6th 2.1.5 (RELENG_2_1_0) level and the other is at the July 7th -current level. I also have three other systems at earlier levels of -current or 2.1-stable on which vi is working properly (with respect to window resizing anyway). Note that other programs such as less and top notice the window size changes on all of the systems. Can someone point me to what I may have wrong on these failing systems? Thanks, -- Bob Willcox bob@luke.pmr.com Austin, TX From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 06:27:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA11276 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA11270 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA03839; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607101327.GAA03839@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Steve Sims" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:49:04 EDT." <199607101250.IAA29257@mh004.infi.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:27:25 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >(For my benefit, can anyone explain why the default port address for ed0 >is 0x280? I assume some historical reason, but I really don't know the >details....) > >OK, how 'bout this: I'll endorse nuking the ed1 device, but only if the >default settings for the ed0 device are changed to 5/300 in GENERIC. What >say? This seems reasonable to me. 0x300 is supported by all of the ed-compatible cards as far as I know. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 06:55:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA12593 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA12588 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA09988; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:54:49 +1000 From: David Dawes Message-Id: <199607101354.XAA09988@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: SimsS@Infi.Net (Steve Sims) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:54:49 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607101250.IAA29257@mh004.infi.net> from "Steve Sims" at Jul 10, 96 08:49:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >(For my benefit, can anyone explain why the default port address for ed0 >is 0x280? I assume some historical reason, but I really don't know the >details....) It is a common default for WD/SMC cards, which also use the ed driver. >OK, how 'bout this: I'll endorse nuking the ed1 device, but only if the >default settings for the ed0 device are changed to 5/300 in GENERIC. What >say? No! David From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 07:13:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA13588 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA13575 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA04010 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:13:11 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Last call for 2.1.5 experimental / commercial submissions. Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:13:10 -0700 Message-ID: <4007.837007990@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OK, I fixed the permissions on ftp.freebsd.org:~ftp/pub/FreeBSD/2.1.5-incoming and it should be possible for people to actually upload stuff there now. :-) It's also been pointed out to me that there are a lot of things in freefall.freebsd.org:~ftp/incoming which might well deserve a spot in the experimental or commercial distributions, but I'm afraid that I'm having a bit of trouble telling the wheat from the chaff. :-) If you've got something in freefall's incoming, maybe you'd like to consider uploading it to wcarchive as well? Uploading conventions: The convention is to create a subdirectory for yourself under experimental or commercial (which will be renamed to "xperimnt" and "commerce" for the CD) and put your files under that directory. Each directory should have a README file and at least one distribution file. If your distribution format is a tar file, name it "foo.tar" or "foo.tar.gz". If it's a FreeBSD package, name it "foo.tgz". This will make it easier for the user to guess just what to do with your distribution file if they're the impatient non-README reading type. :-) All filenames should be kept 8.3 compliant (which is why tarballs or packages are a good idea) so that a user may load your software via a DOS filesystem, should such be necessary. I'll be checking for submissions in these directories right up until Friday afternoon, so you've got time to do this but not TOO much time so please don't leave it to the last minute! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 07:21:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA13998 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA13992 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA03974; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607101420.HAA03974@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: David Dawes cc: SimsS@Infi.Net (Steve Sims), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:54:49 +1000." <199607101354.XAA09988@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:20:52 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>(For my benefit, can anyone explain why the default port address for ed0 >>is 0x280? I assume some historical reason, but I really don't know the >>details....) > >It is a common default for WD/SMC cards, which also use the ed driver. So is 0x300. There's even a hard jumper to select it, and I think the WD/SMC cards are even set to 0x300 out of the box. >>OK, how 'bout this: I'll endorse nuking the ed1 device, but only if the >>default settings for the ed0 device are changed to 5/300 in GENERIC. What >>say? > >No! Erm, why? 0x300 is a better default. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 08:04:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA16627 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leinlein.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (leinlein.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.126]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA16611 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by leinlein.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA00268; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:40:10 GMT Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:40:10 GMT Message-Id: <199607102240.WAA00268@leinlein.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.19] 1995-07/21(Fri) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! A good news for Asian FreeBSD hackers. We release the alpha-test version of Japanese boot.flp for FreeBSD 2.2-960612-SNAP. It contains all fonts for ASCII character set (128 chars), JIS-0201x-1979 "Kana" character set (128 chars with 8th bit), and JIS-0208-1983 level 1 "Kanji" character set (about 3000 multibyte chars) in only "one 2HD 1.44MB floppy" !! It can display these mutibyte characters on normal PC VGA display without any special localized hardware. Almost all messages of sysinstall have been translated into Japanese, and help files are now translating by FreeBSD user's group in Japan (readme.hlp and usage.hlp has been translated into Japanese). The URL is, ftp://ryukyu.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/pub/alpha-test/jboot/boot.flp I think it is possible to create Chinese boot.flp, Korean (hangul) boot.flp, etc. based on this work. If you're interested in creating your boot.flp in your mother tongue, please e-mail me! We have more free space on 2HD floppy. I know of course that Big-5 font is huge even compared to Japanese font, but I think it's possible to create Chinese boot.flp in one 2HD floppy! -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp hosokawa@jp.FreeBSD.org WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 08:14:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18150 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suw3svr01.hisd.harris.com (suw3svr01.hisd.harris.com [158.147.19.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18143 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suw2k.hisd.harris.com by suw3svr01.hisd.harris.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA09466; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:14:46 -0400 Received: by suw2k.hisd.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02412; Wed, 10 Jul 96 11:11:12 EDT Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 11:11:12 EDT From: jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com (James Leppek) Message-Id: <9607101511.AA02412@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bootable CD's (fwd) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If anyone comes up with any pointers I am willing to give it a try, I am also trying to get the info from gigabyte. This seems like a handy CD to have for those catastrophic failure days :-) or for those sysadmins who REALLY want to control the system i.e. firewall or public access machines. Jim (new HP CDR owner) Leppek > From owner-freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Wed Jul 10 05:27:01 1996 > From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) > Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany > Phone: +49-6637-919123 > Fax: +49-6637-919122 > Subject: bootable CD's (fwd) > To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) > Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:37:02 +0200 (MET DST) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type> : > text/plain> ; > charset=ISO-8859-1> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org > X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > James Leppek writes: > > From owner-freebsd-questions Mon Jul 8 07:25:35 1996 > > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 10:13:08 EDT > > > > Has anyone created a "bootable" CD? My new motherboard supports > > booting from the CD but I am not sure how to create such a CD. > > Thanks for any help > > This looks like a "must have". Does anybody know any details of the > format? > > Greg > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 08:44:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20474 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA20464 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA25663; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:41:34 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607101541.KAA25663@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: davidg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:41:34 -0500 (CDT) Cc: dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607101420.HAA03974@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Jul 10, 96 07:20:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>(For my benefit, can anyone explain why the default port address for ed0 > >>is 0x280? I assume some historical reason, but I really don't know the > >>details....) > > > >It is a common default for WD/SMC cards, which also use the ed driver. > > So is 0x300. There's even a hard jumper to select it, and I think the > WD/SMC cards are even set to 0x300 out of the box. There is a hard jumper to select 0x300 on SOME cards, on others I believe it is 0x280. The jumper settings are an ugly mishmash, trust me, I used to like jumper settable cards but with SMC changing the settings every other revision of card, it rapidly becomes a stinking pile of doo doo. > >>OK, how 'bout this: I'll endorse nuking the ed1 device, but only if the > >>default settings for the ed0 device are changed to 5/300 in GENERIC. What > >>say? > > > >No! > > Erm, why? 0x300 is a better default. Actually, I would really like to see ed1 stay. The ed driver, in my opinion, is by far the most popular Ethernet driver, and having two interfaces available makes it very easy to rapidly do things like toss a second network interface in a machine, build an "emergency router", etc. without the downtime required to rebuild a kernel on a 386DX/40 with 8MB of RAM (which takes a LONG time). However, I will definitely scream if anyone removes sio2/sio3. Disabled by default, MAYBE. Removed, NO. I have seen far too many people who have three or four STANDARD SERIAL PORTS and sio2/3 directly map to COM3/4. There should be NO reason to screw around with this. These lines support standard PC hardware. If you remove them, remove sio1 too because you obviously only need one serial port to do an install. The harder we make it for people to use out of the box, the more like Linux we become. I see the argument for simplicity, and I understand -c, but you also have to realize that people who install GENERIC SunOS, GENERIC NetBSD, or whatever Linux calls its default get a fully functional system. I fail to see what dropping sio2/sio3/ed1 buys anyways, since these device drivers are already required by sio0/sio1/ed0. I assume it might save a FEW bytes in kernel size for the extra entries. BIG stinkin' deal. That's a small price to pay for making it work the way people would expect. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 08:56:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21368 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA21363 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA04210; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607101554.IAA04210@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Joe Greco cc: dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:41:34 CDT." <199607101541.KAA25663@brasil.moneng.mei.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:54:43 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >>(For my benefit, can anyone explain why the default port address for ed0 >> >>is 0x280? I assume some historical reason, but I really don't know the >> >>details....) >> > >> >It is a common default for WD/SMC cards, which also use the ed driver. >> >> So is 0x300. There's even a hard jumper to select it, and I think the >> WD/SMC cards are even set to 0x300 out of the box. > >There is a hard jumper to select 0x300 on SOME cards, on others I believe it >is 0x280. The jumper settings are an ugly mishmash, trust me, I used to >like jumper settable cards but with SMC changing the settings every other >revision of card, it rapidly becomes a stinking pile of doo doo. I'm not advocating that people use the jumpers. I'm mearly pointing out that they exist. >> Erm, why? 0x300 is a better default. > >Actually, I would really like to see ed1 stay. The ed driver, in my >opinion, is by far the most popular Ethernet driver, and having two >interfaces available makes it very easy to rapidly do things like toss >a second network interface in a machine, build an "emergency router", etc. >without the downtime required to rebuild a kernel on a 386DX/40 with 8MB of >RAM (which takes a LONG time). What's wrong with using -c at the Boot: prompt? Rebuilding the kernel is certainly not necessary to get the change in an "emergency" situation. >However, I will definitely scream if anyone removes sio2/sio3. Disabled by >default, MAYBE. Removed, NO. I have seen far too many people who have >three or four STANDARD SERIAL PORTS and sio2/3 directly map to COM3/4. >There should be NO reason to screw around with this. These lines support >standard PC hardware. If you remove them, remove sio1 too because you >obviously only need one serial port to do an install. We have no mechanism in -stable to disable devices by default. "COM3" and "COM4" aren't 'standard', either. For one thing, the interrupt selections for these are often switched. >I fail to see what dropping sio2/sio3/ed1 buys anyways, since these device >drivers are already required by sio0/sio1/ed0. I assume it might save a FEW >bytes in kernel size for the extra entries. BIG stinkin' deal. That's a >small price to pay for making it work the way people would expect. We have to remove sio3 because we can't disable it by default and it conflicts with the most common SVGA cards. The only other option is to bring in the necessary changes to config(8) to allow "disable". Considering that we're in code freeze and about 3 days from a release, this seems just a little but crazy to me...but hey, I aim to please! :-) -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 09:16:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23303 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23263 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA04402; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:15:43 -0700 (PDT) To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:40:10 GMT." <199607102240.WAA00268@leinlein.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:15:42 -0700 Message-ID: <4399.837015342@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We release the alpha-test version of Japanese boot.flp for FreeBSD > 2.2-960612-SNAP. It contains all fonts for ASCII character set (128 > chars), JIS-0201x-1979 "Kana" character set (128 chars with 8th bit), > and JIS-0208-1983 level 1 "Kanji" character set (about 3000 multibyte > chars) in only "one 2HD 1.44MB floppy" !! It can display these > mutibyte characters on normal PC VGA display without any special > localized hardware. That sounds really neat! It's too bad you guys haven't done one for 2.1.5-STABLE also, we could put it on the upcoming CD.. :-( How long would it take you to do that, seriously? If you started with a fresh 2.1-STABLE tree today, you'd have essentially the same sysinstall bits (and docs) I intend to put on the 2.1.5 CD this Friday, and I don't expect that'd be any more difficult to retrofit in than your 2.2 work since I'm using the same sysinstall sources in both branches. If I could get a Japanese installation boot floppy on there, I might even wait a day or two past friday. :-) > I think it is possible to create Chinese boot.flp, Korean (hangul) > boot.flp, etc. based on this work. If you're interested in creating > your boot.flp in your mother tongue, please e-mail me! I think that'd be really nice. We tried some experimental I18N support in 2.0.5, as you remember, but that all fell apart due to the fact that we really needed to come up with a better way of localizing the install and I never really put the necessary time into it (hangs head). Maybe you guys will be the inspiration we need to restart that project! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 09:17:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23422 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23417 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA25737; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:15:55 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607101615.LAA25737@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: davidg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:15:54 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607101554.IAA04210@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Jul 10, 96 08:54:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >There is a hard jumper to select 0x300 on SOME cards, on others I believe it > >is 0x280. The jumper settings are an ugly mishmash, trust me, I used to > >like jumper settable cards but with SMC changing the settings every other > >revision of card, it rapidly becomes a stinking pile of doo doo. > > I'm not advocating that people use the jumpers. I'm mearly pointing out > that they exist. Yeah, that's about where I am these days too. > >Actually, I would really like to see ed1 stay. The ed driver, in my > >opinion, is by far the most popular Ethernet driver, and having two > >interfaces available makes it very easy to rapidly do things like toss > >a second network interface in a machine, build an "emergency router", etc. > >without the downtime required to rebuild a kernel on a 386DX/40 with 8MB of > >RAM (which takes a LONG time). > > What's wrong with using -c at the Boot: prompt? Rebuilding the kernel is > certainly not necessary to get the change in an "emergency" situation. Uh, if you REMOVE the "ed1" device, by definition you lose the ability to do the things I mentioned above because you have REMOVED your second interface. Unless -c now allows you to create new instances of devices for which drivers are available (that would be too cool and I would be the first to kiss the feet of the person who did it). > >However, I will definitely scream if anyone removes sio2/sio3. Disabled by > >default, MAYBE. Removed, NO. I have seen far too many people who have > >three or four STANDARD SERIAL PORTS and sio2/3 directly map to COM3/4. > >There should be NO reason to screw around with this. These lines support > >standard PC hardware. If you remove them, remove sio1 too because you > >obviously only need one serial port to do an install. > > We have no mechanism in -stable to disable devices by default. "COM3" and > "COM4" aren't 'standard', either. For one thing, the interrupt selections > for these are often switched. In my mind, "standard" is a situation that exists when I can go up to your average piece of PC hardware and reasonably expect that I might be able to do something. All serial cards I've seen in the last few years support all four COM ports, and the vast majority seem to allow setting of the interrupt too. As much as this may be an "undocumented" standard, and there may be some vagueness about the interrupts that should be used, I contend that a standard exists. > >I fail to see what dropping sio2/sio3/ed1 buys anyways, since these device > >drivers are already required by sio0/sio1/ed0. I assume it might save a FEW > >bytes in kernel size for the extra entries. BIG stinkin' deal. That's a > >small price to pay for making it work the way people would expect. > > We have to remove sio3 because we can't disable it by default and it > conflicts with the most common SVGA cards. That's a plausible argument but I remind you that we've been through several releases with sio3 enabled. > The only other option is to bring > in the necessary changes to config(8) to allow "disable". Considering that > we're in code freeze and about 3 days from a release, this seems just a little > but crazy to me...but hey, I aim to please! :-) Then the question I have is this: if we are three days from a release, why are we making last minute UNNECESSARY changes of ANY sort? We have lived through several releases and MANY snap's, etc with the current situation. Now we propose (potentially) MAJOR changes in available default behaviour of the system's kernel, and we intend to implement it three days before a RELEASE, without any SNAP's? In my mind, that is baaaaaaaaaad. What is the difference between making a code change and making a functionality change three days before a release? Maybe I'm missing something. But it's been a long week so far. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 09:22:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23841 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cedb.dpcsys.com (cedb.DPCSYS.COM [165.90.143.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA23835 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cedb (cedb.DPCSYS.COM [165.90.143.3]) by cedb.dpcsys.com (8.6.10/DPC-1.0) with SMTP id JAA13789 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:14:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:14:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Busarow X-Sender: dan@cedb To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607101250.IAA29257@mh004.infi.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Steve Sims wrote: > > From: Jordan K. Hubbard > [snip] > > I would also like to remove: > > > > ed1 > > lp1 > > > Sorry, Jordan, I don't agree with yanking the ed1 device at all. The > defaults for the ed0 interface are, at least in my copy of GENERIC, are > 5/280. Nearly ALL of the NE-2000 clones (and there are gazillions of 'em) > can't use 0x280, so the ed1 device becomes the E-net port on a clean > install; 5/300 being a fairly standard HW setup. Same here, every system I install uses ed1. I know how to change it and it's no big deal, but to someone new to FreeBSD it might be. If you want to have only one ed interface, please consider changing the settings of ed0 to those currently used by ed1. Thanks, Dan -- Dan Busarow 714 443 4172 DPC Systems dan@dpcsys.com Dana Point, California 83 09 EF 59 E0 11 89 B4 8D 09 DB FD E1 DD 0C 82 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 09:31:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA24486 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA24474 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA04464; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:29:43 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: davidg@Root.COM, dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:41:34 CDT." <199607101541.KAA25663@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:29:43 -0700 Message-ID: <4462.837016183@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > However, I will definitely scream if anyone removes sio2/sio3. Disabled by > default, MAYBE. Removed, NO. I have seen far too many people who have > three or four STANDARD SERIAL PORTS and sio2/3 directly map to COM3/4. > There should be NO reason to screw around with this. These lines support > standard PC hardware. If you remove them, remove sio1 too because you > obviously only need one serial port to do an install. I'll compromise with you - we keep ed1, which I'm going to fold over since it seems so many WD/NE have a conflicting view of what a "standard setting" is. sio2/3 have already gone and I can hardly accept the argument that 4 port PCs are any kind of norm. I've seen literally hundreds of different PC configurations and in all but a few very rare cases, it's always the same 2 ser/1 par/1 game combo. Enabling sio3 can also give you a bad headache if you have an ATI chipset, and it was already disabled in GENERIC as it was, so really I've only removed one port. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 09:37:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25046 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25036 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA23661; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:37:29 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:37:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607101637.KAA23661@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: davidg@Root.COM Cc: Joe Greco , dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@infi.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607101554.IAA04210@root.com> References: <199607101541.KAA25663@brasil.moneng.mei.com> <199607101554.IAA04210@root.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > What's wrong with using -c at the Boot: prompt? Rebuilding the kernel is > certainly not necessary to get the change in an "emergency" situation. Because it's basically un-documented until *after* the system is installed. It would be nice to have it explained in the README where you get the boot floppies, but it isn't. (Or is it that I don't see it in the GAMMA distribution). > >However, I will definitely scream if anyone removes sio2/sio3. Disabled by > >default, MAYBE. Removed, NO. I have seen far too many people who have > >three or four STANDARD SERIAL PORTS and sio2/3 directly map to COM3/4. > >There should be NO reason to screw around with this. These lines support > >standard PC hardware. If you remove them, remove sio1 too because you > >obviously only need one serial port to do an install. > > We have no mechanism in -stable to disable devices by default. "COM3" and > "COM4" aren't 'standard', either. For one thing, the interrupt selections > for these are often switched. I agree to a point, but see below. > >I fail to see what dropping sio2/sio3/ed1 buys anyways, since these device > >drivers are already required by sio0/sio1/ed0. I assume it might save a FEW > >bytes in kernel size for the extra entries. BIG stinkin' deal. That's a > >small price to pay for making it work the way people would expect. > > We have to remove sio3 because we can't disable it by default and > it conflicts with the most common SVGA cards. The only other > option is to bring in the necessary changes to config(8) to allow > "disable". Considering that we're in code freeze and about 3 days > from a release, this seems just a little bit crazy to me...but > hey, I aim to please! :-) Jordan already did that last night. :( While I don't really agree with it coming in so soon, as long as it's there you may as well use it. (He brought it in for the psm0 driver), which should be 'disabled' by default due to keyboard conflicts. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 09:37:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25067 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25062 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA04500; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:36:28 -0700 (PDT) To: davidg@Root.COM cc: Joe Greco , dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:54:43 PDT." <199607101554.IAA04210@root.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:36:28 -0700 Message-ID: <4498.837016588@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We have no mechanism in -stable to disable devices by default. "COM3" and > "COM4" aren't 'standard', either. For one thing, the interrupt selections > for these are often switched. Actually, I have to admit that we have - I brought over bruce's disabled keyword changes this morning and used it to disable the psm0 driver. However, when I looked at disabling sio3 it was far more appealing to me to simply remove it since I can't see how anyone would need more than two serial ports for an installation. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 09:42:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25291 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25279 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA04558; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:41:19 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: davidg@Root.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:15:54 CDT." <199607101615.LAA25737@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:41:18 -0700 Message-ID: <4556.837016878@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That's a plausible argument but I remind you that we've been through several > releases with sio3 enabled. Actually no, it's been disabled for awhile because it was causing people big problems in all the release when we DID have it enabled - having it enabled turned out to be a big mistake! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 09:44:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25409 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25403 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA23663; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:40:16 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:40:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607101640.KAA23663@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Joe Greco Cc: davidg@Root.COM, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607101615.LAA25737@brasil.moneng.mei.com> References: <199607101554.IAA04210@root.com> <199607101615.LAA25737@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > We have to remove sio3 because we can't disable it by default and it > > conflicts with the most common SVGA cards. > > That's a plausible argument but I remind you that we've been through several > releases with sio3 enabled. Yes, but 'newer' SVGA cards *now* blow up when sio3 is enabled. In the past this wasn't a big deal, but even in 2.1R we had quite a few folks who got wiped out by sio3 (read Usenet), and this is only going to get worse with the faster S3/ATI/Mach cards becoming more commonplace. [ Deleted opinion on changing stuff this close to release which I agree with ] Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 10:08:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26724 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26717 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA00383; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607101655.JAA00383@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers), jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 10 Jul 96 09:32:06 +0200. <199607100732.JAA09316@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:55:34 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> After speaking with David on the phone, I decided to remove the >> following entries from GENERIC: >Only two arguments here: >. GENERIC is known to run on many installed machines, and while you > are right that it is possible (and desirable) to compile your kernel > from scratch once you are installed, many people decide not to do > it, for various reasons. (Among them, you have to sacrify 20 MB of > space for a kernel compilation, which is far too much for someone > with only a 100 MB disk.) Maybe I have a bad attitude, but... This is Unix. If they can't or don't want to build their own kernel, they should be running Windows or OS/2. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 10:11:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26924 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26917 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA25844; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:10:35 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607101710.MAA25844@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:10:35 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4462.837016183@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 10, 96 09:29:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > However, I will definitely scream if anyone removes sio2/sio3. Disabled by > > default, MAYBE. Removed, NO. I have seen far too many people who have > > three or four STANDARD SERIAL PORTS and sio2/3 directly map to COM3/4. > > There should be NO reason to screw around with this. These lines support > > standard PC hardware. If you remove them, remove sio1 too because you > > obviously only need one serial port to do an install. > > I'll compromise with you - we keep ed1, which I'm going to fold over > since it seems so many WD/NE have a conflicting view of what a > "standard setting" is. sio2/3 have already gone and I can hardly > accept the argument that 4 port PCs are any kind of norm. I've seen > literally hundreds of different PC configurations and in all but a few > very rare cases, it's always the same 2 ser/1 par/1 game combo. One mouse, one modem, ports full. Now try to add anything. Think of how many serial gizmo's are out there. Any home hacker has a mouse and modem, as an absolute freaking minimum. Anybody doing anything interesting has more. Like... An ISDN terminal adaptor (often used in ADDITION to a modem). A terminal (a friend has one in his living room). A touchscreen (yes I have one). A printer (serial lines can drive printers further away). Another computer (common around here). I can't think right now .. arrrgh. but there are plenty of other serial devices you might want to be able to use, and having it not work "out of the box" is a liability to FreeBSD. > Enabling sio3 can also give you a bad headache if you have an ATI > chipset, and it was already disabled in GENERIC as it was, so really > I've only removed one port. It was? Really. NOT. # pwd /ftp/.0/systems/unix/FreeBSD/2.0.5-RELEASE/src # grep sio3 /tmp/2.0.5-RELEASE/src/sys/i386/conf/GENERIC device sio3 at isa? port "IO_COM4" tty irq 9 vector siointr # cd ../../2.1.0-RELEASE/src # pwd /ftp/.0/systems/unix/FreeBSD/2.1.0-RELEASE/src # grep sio3 /tmp/2.1.0-RELEASE/src/sys/i386/conf/GENERIC device sio3 at isa? port "IO_COM4" tty irq 9 vector siointr # If it got turned off later, that's sort of too bad, as I wasn't aware of (or don't remember) the change and I would have raised a stink earlier. I generally stick to -RELEASE'd code out of necessity. I'm not arguing that nobody has a problem with sio3 being there. Apparently the Stealth cards have a problem. Maybe others do too. That's a problem that HAS to be addressed. I'm just saying we are going about this all wrong. It should probably be addressed through engineering (i.e. "solving the problem") rather than brute force (i.e. "removing two devices to fix one other"). See, it can be a real pain in the ass on a 386DX/40 with 8MB RAM and a 100MB hard disk to find space to rebuild a kernel just to add a few devices. The "-c" thing was really nice when it came around because it eliminated the need to rebuild a kernel just to change settings on current devices. In my opinion, we are better off having a more flexible kernel where certain things can be turned on and off (or configured) as necessary... A short term solution would be to offer a config option to disable a device by default, but allow it to be re-enabled using -c. I have no (!!) objection if you were to build a GENERIC kernel with four serial ports, one enabled, three disabled. It gives the user the flexibility, at a VERY small additional cost to the user (i.e. having to reboot and do -c) instead of the VERY large potential cost of trying to recompile a kernel - which can also be daunting to a new user. A wonderful long term solution would be to expand the -c functionality to allow it to create new instances of a device for which a driver was available. THIS would be EXTREMELY powerful and would largely eliminate the need for users to build new kernels at all. Want more serial ports but only have sio0 config'd? Fine, boot -c, and add sio1, add sio2, add sio3... even if I had to set every frigging parameter by hand, the power that this would offer would be worth it! In any case, the real problem is that this is being done three days before a release. I vote that you leave it as it was. What you are doing is NOT a solution to the problem, it is a hack around the problem, which will cause other people OTHER problems. That in itself should be a convincing argument. IMHO, a real solution should have been engineered into -stable and tested and reviewed and hashed around. This 11th hour stuff is crap. Please forgive me if I sound just a little exasperated. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 10:19:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27355 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27349 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA25879; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:18:26 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607101718.MAA25879@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:18:26 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4498.837016588@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 10, 96 09:36:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > We have no mechanism in -stable to disable devices by default. "COM3" and > > "COM4" aren't 'standard', either. For one thing, the interrupt selections > > for these are often switched. > > Actually, I have to admit that we have - I brought over bruce's > disabled keyword changes this morning and used it to disable the psm0 > driver. However, when I looked at disabling sio3 it was far more > appealing to me to simply remove it since I can't see how anyone would > need more than two serial ports for an installation. Jordan, You're missing it. I can't even think of more than one serial port for an installation - I agree there. However, read my lips: NEWBIES ARE FRIGHTENED BY THE PROSPECT OF RECOMPILING KERNELS AND OTHER GURUISH CRAP. It needs to work cleanly out of the box if we are to have any market appeal. GENERIC probably runs on 80% of all FreeBSD boxes out there, I would bet. Hey, I even run GENERIC on some of my systems. It's convenient. It's flexible. It's the default, too. If you have the support for "disabled" keywords... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, I BEG YOU, DO IT THAT WAY. You fix the "sio3" problem yet retain the flexibility to have people just "turn it on" with boot -c, without recompiling a kernel and potentially pooping up their system in the process. It is the best of both worlds, and you don't get that often! ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 10:20:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27456 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guardian.fortress.org (fortress.org [199.84.158.128]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27435 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from andrew@localhost) by guardian.fortress.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA01552; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:18:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:18:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Webster Reply-To: andrew@pubnix.net To: James Leppek cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: bootable CD's (fwd) In-Reply-To: <9607101511.AA02412@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, James Leppek wrote: > If anyone comes up with any pointers I am willing to give it a try, I am > also trying to get the info from gigabyte. This seems like a handy CD to have > for those catastrophic failure days :-) > or for those sysadmins who REALLY want to control the system > i.e. firewall or public access machines. > > Jim (new HP CDR owner) Leppek HP's Netserver line comes with bootable CDs. The main controller is an AIC-7880 based system on the motherboard, and it boots from a SCSI CDROM. It appears to replace A: with the CDROM during the boot proceedure. The BIOS is an Adaptec bios with a CD bootable option. This would be a really handy feature! Andrew Webster - andrew@pubnix.net - http://www.pubnix.net PubNIX Montreal - Connected to the world - Branche au monde 514-990-5911 - P.O. Box 147, Cote St-Luc, Quebec, H4V 2Y3 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 10:21:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27544 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27533 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23842; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:21:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:21:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607101721.LAA23842@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <12325.836972831@time.cdrom.com> References: <12325.836972831@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Back to the original article ] > After speaking with David on the phone, I decided to remove the > following entries from GENERIC: > > sio2 > sio3 > lpt2 > mcd1 > lnc1 > > I would also like to remove: > > ed1 > lp1 > > But will wait for more feedback on that (I think that ed1 should at > least go). I've undertaken this housecleaning because I feel that > GENERIC has built up more than its fair share of historical cruft > (many of the doubled entries predating userconfig) and we need to get > back to the concept of GENERIC as a "just get it installed with as > little wasted space as possible so that it still fits on one boot > floppy" kind of kernel image. Having worked with BSD/*nix systems since the mid-80's, as I understand it GENERIC wasn't intened to be a 'minimal' kernel with as little wasted space as possible, but a 'kitchen-sink' kernel which contained every conceivable driver so that you could never had to build a custom kernel for your system unless you had special needs. I know that I never *had* to build custom kernels on *any* of the commercial BSD systems I've used unless I had a very special need. (Like adding in un-supported SLIP support, etc..) Making folks build their own custom kernels is a step in the wrong direction. We should be providing 'out-of-the-box' solutions solutions for them in the same manner as pre-built ports. If getting source and building it from scratch wasn't an issue we shouldn't even be providing pre-built ports since it's so easy to build them w/out an Internet connection on the CD already. Other free *nices don't *make* the user build their own custom kernels for standard PC hardware, and most PC hardware now have > 2 serial ports when you consider almost *EVERY* single PC now has the standard 2serial/Parallel/game-port plus an internal modem. Since you already brought in the 'disable' keyword, why don't you simply disable sio2/3, and leave them in. As far as the remaining ones go, I don't know of any *standard* PC that has more than one parallel port, so I see no need there, and I also doubt that anyone has multiple Mitsumi-CD's on their system. I'm only concerned about the 2 (now missing) serial ports, which can be safely disabled/enabled by the end user w/out requiring a kernel re-compile with the config changes. I suspect this is less than 1K in the kernel with the advantage of not having the end-user *require* a kernel re-compile for her system. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 11:05:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA00667 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com ([206.245.251.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00652 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23385; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607101804.LAA23385@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Puting PnP support into -current by default To: smpatel@prognet.com (Sujal Patel) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:04:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, thorpej@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Sujal Patel" at Jul 8, 96 09:24:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/incoming/FreeBSD-ISA_PnP_June8.tar.gz I think you meant July8 whe you wrote that file :) seriously.. how close is this to being put into the kernel source tree by default.. I know I'd like to see it as we recently had to send back some PnP modems. I volunteer to put these into -current if no-one else complains.. julian > > Contains a new snapshot of the ISA Plug & Play code. It includes 1 major > bug fix for pnpinfo, 1 for the kernel code (a really big bug), and also a > patch for current and 2.1.5 > > The code for the 2.1.5 patch is a little neater, even though both kernel > patches are functionally equivalent. Sorry, there is still no > autoconfiguration or "nicer" configuration. You'll just have to stuff all > of the configuration data into a big struct :-) > > Sample configurations are included for 4 cards (Sb16, Supra Modem, SMC > EtherEz, 3Com EtherLink III). The code is believed to work on 100% of > PnP cards. > > > Sujal > > PS: Jason, I forgot who was working on this in your camp, and I don't have > my email-box handy- Please forward this message to him. Thanks > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 11:10:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01096 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from novell.com (sjf-mh.sjf.novell.com [130.57.10.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00971 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-SJF-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:47:01 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:54:37 -0700 From: Darren Davis To: andrew@fortress.org, andrew@novell.com, jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bootable CD's (fwd) - Reply Encoding: 6 Text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Also, the new HPs have bootable CDs as well as Compaq machines. Darren R. Davis Senior Software Engineer Novell, Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 11:18:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01892 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sujal.prognet.com (sujal.prognet.com [204.255.154.231]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01879 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sujal.prognet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00477; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:18:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Sujal Patel To: JULIAN Elischer cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, thorpej@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Puting PnP support into -current by default In-Reply-To: <199607101804.LAA23385@ref.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, JULIAN Elischer wrote: > > ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/incoming/FreeBSD-ISA_PnP_June8.tar.gz > I think you meant July8 whe you wrote that file :) > > seriously.. how close is this to being put into the kernel source tree > by default.. > I know I'd like to see it as we recently had to send back > some PnP modems. > > I volunteer to put these into -current if no-one else complains.. There are somes issues that need to be solved before I can really integrate this into -current... This is priority #1 on my list of large FreeBSD projects, so I *hope* that I can integrate it in soon. The biggest problem is that currently you have to stuff the IRQ/Port/DRQ into a big struct, so that the PnP device can be configured. There are so many options for PnP devices that this doesn't fit into the BSD configuration scheme well. The best solution for this problem would be to write a configuration manager for FreeBSD. The configuration manager could be used to set the parameters for all devices, and as a side function control the operation of PnP devices as well. If we get three stage boot blocks, we could probably even reuse a lot of the code for this configuration manager to write a better "-c" from the boot block. I really don't like the idea of commiting code into -current that requires the user to manually edit the source. I also don't like the idea of adding all of these options to the config program, because this is far from desirable. I'm open to any suggestions at this point, to get this code quickly integrated into FreeBSD. The low-level stuff in the PnP driver is rock solid, now I just need to work on the user interface to all of this stuff (sometimes the hardest part). Sujal From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 11:34:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03385 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03379 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.2]) by horst.bfd.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18499; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:32:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" X-Sender: ejs@harlie To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Joe Greco , davidg@Root.COM, dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <4462.837016183@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > "standard setting" is. sio2/3 have already gone and I can hardly > accept the argument that 4 port PCs are any kind of norm. I've seen > literally hundreds of different PC configurations and in all but a few > very rare cases, it's always the same 2 ser/1 par/1 game combo. Agreed with on machines coming off the shelf that way, but most people I know that add an internal modem add it as com3/irq5, since they don't have to figure out how to disable a comm port. which isn't 4 port, but it also isn't two port. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 11:36:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03627 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from guava.blueberry.co.uk ([194.70.52.51]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03606 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nik@localhost) by guava.blueberry.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24075 Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:35:49 +0100 (BST) From: Nik Clayton Message-Id: <199607101835.TAA24075@guava.blueberry.co.uk> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:35:49 +0100 (BST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607101721.LAA23842@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jul 10, 96 11:21:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Having worked with BSD/*nix systems since the mid-80's, as I understand > it GENERIC wasn't intened to be a 'minimal' kernel with as little wasted > space as possible, but a 'kitchen-sink' kernel which contained every > conceivable driver so that you could never had to build a custom kernel With this in mind, would it not make sense to have a fairly minimal kernel on the boot floppy, and include a larger, and more complete 'GENERIC' as part of the bindist? That way you get the best of both worlds. N -- --+=[ Blueberry Hill Blueberry Design ]=+-- --+=[ http://www.blueberry.co.uk/ 1/9 Chelsea Harbour Design Centre, ]=+-- --+=[ WebMaster@blueberry.co.uk London, England, SW10 0XE ]=+-- --+=[ I'm a 'control' freak. But I quite like 'meta' too. ]ENTP From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 11:51:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04517 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (eischen@pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04509 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pcnet1.pcnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10469; Wed, 10 Jul 96 14:47:16 EDT Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 14:47:16 EDT From: eischen@vigrid.com (Daniel Eischen) Message-Id: <9607101847.AA10469@pcnet1.pcnet.com> To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'll compromise with you - we keep ed1, which I'm going to fold over > > since it seems so many WD/NE have a conflicting view of what a > > "standard setting" is. sio2/3 have already gone and I can hardly > > accept the argument that 4 port PCs are any kind of norm. I've seen > > literally hundreds of different PC configurations and in all but a few > > very rare cases, it's always the same 2 ser/1 par/1 game combo. > > One mouse, one modem, ports full. > > Now try to add anything. Think of how many serial gizmo's are out there. > Any home hacker has a mouse and modem, as an absolute freaking minimum. > Anybody doing anything interesting has more. Like... I feel like I don't belong here, but... I have to agree with Joe. How many people have internal modems on COM3/4? How about a PPP install for them? Dan Eischen eischen@pcnet.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 11:56:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05000 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04739 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA16671 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:52:45 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA03990; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:51:23 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA10672; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:22:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607101822.UAA10672@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: bootable CD's (fwd) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:22:43 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com (James Leppek) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <9607101511.AA02412@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> from James Leppek at "Jul 10, 96 11:11:12 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As James Leppek wrote: > If anyone comes up with any pointers I am willing to give it a try, I am > also trying to get the info from gigabyte. What magic do you expect? I don't know, but i would blindly assume that booting the CD will be done in the same way as booting any other device. The BIOS code searches all available devices, and tries to load the very first sector onto address 0:0x7c00. If the loaded sector ends in 0x55aa, it will simply be executed. It's up to the executed code to decide what needs to be done next. That's why you could put a boot-selector MBR there, or you could put the 7.5 KB BSD bootstrap there as well. CD-ROM sectors are 2 KB, not only 512 bytes, but who says you cannot examine the very first 512 bytes only? The most important work that is required is a cdboot subdirectory, initially cloned from biosboot, but with support for a cd9660 file system to load the kernel from. Anyway, you've got full 32 KB of available space on a CD-ROM (there's 0x8000 bytes space in front of the cd9660 header), so this shouldn't be a very big problem. Merging the bootstrap into a cd9660 image could be accomplished by ``dd conv=notrunc'' in the simplest case. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 11:57:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05039 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ncgr.org (ncgr.ncgr.org [198.59.177.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04856 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zygote.ncgr.org by ncgr.org (SMI-8.6/[SMI-SVR4:NCGR]) id MAA03811; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:44:20 -0600 Received: by zygote.ncgr.org (SMI-8.6/[SMI-SV4] National Center For Genome Resources ) id MAA28876; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:44:22 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:44:22 -0600 Message-Id: <199607101844.MAA28876@ zygote.ncgr.org> From: "Gary A. Thompson" To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Cc: James Leppek Subject: El Torito spec (was Re: bootable CD's (fwd)) In-Reply-To: References: <9607101511.AA02412@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, James Leppek wrote: > If anyone comes up with any pointers I am willing to give it a try, I am > also trying to get the info from gigabyte. This seems like a > handy CD to have for those catastrophic failure days :-) > or for those sysadmins who REALLY want to control the system > i.e. firewall or public access machines. > > Jim (new HP CDR owner) Leppek I believe you can find it at http://www.ptltd.com/desktop/specs.html. There's also a white paper on converting bootable floppies/hard drives to bootable CDs. Gary From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 12:02:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05276 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA05271 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id OAA26133; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:00:33 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607101900.OAA26133@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:00:32 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607101655.JAA00383@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 10, 96 09:55:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Only two arguments here: > >. GENERIC is known to run on many installed machines, and while you > > are right that it is possible (and desirable) to compile your kernel > > from scratch once you are installed, many people decide not to do > > it, for various reasons. (Among them, you have to sacrify 20 MB of > > space for a kernel compilation, which is far too much for someone > > with only a 100 MB disk.) > > Maybe I have a bad attitude, but... This is Unix. If they can't or > don't want to build their own kernel, they should be running Windows > or OS/2. This is UNIX. Why don't we just type in bootstrap loaders and load off of tape like we used to. This is UNIX. We don't need no steenkin' sysinstall utility. Our users like to manually fondle their disklabels. This is UNIX. We don't need to ship a plethora of nifty utilities like ncftp, traceroute, etc. along with the system. Let the user find, compile, and install them. Etc. Pardon me, but I think it's a stupid argument. Either we have to be UNIX-as-it-was, and die like it should, or we have to be UNIX-for-the-next-century, which includes trying to build as useful a system as we can, right out of the box. We are SO close to this in SO many ways. What is this braindamage that we are so intent on forcing people to build their own kernels to gain access to common devices? I know it isn't this way on the other variants of UNIX that I use that support a GENERIC kernel. GENERIC on SunOS, in fact, was traditionally a synonym for "The BIGGEST config file of them all"... look at SunOS 4.1.. (solaria.root.q4-2) 1:51pm /usr/kvm/sys/sun3/conf 11 # wc * 104 626 3556 DL 42 219 1298 DL110 35 174 1040 DL50 40 227 1331 DL60 41 212 1264 DL75 533 3109 16955 GENERIC 214 1170 6578 GENERIC_SMALL 56 366 2055 SDST110 57 372 2102 SDST160 54 335 1918 SDST260 43 248 1439 SDST50 48 301 1730 SDST60 82 554 3037 XDMT160 82 553 3027 XDMT260 72 498 2778 XYMT160 72 497 2768 XYMT260 Why? Because GENERIC held all the common configurations for all common pieces of hardware for (probably) a dozen different Sun 3 systems. I can plug in a Sun 3 GENERIC kernel on any Sun 3 system and expect all my common hardware to be functional. Is it small? No. Is it optimized? No. Does it work? Yessssssss....!!!!!! If you want to sport an attitude just for the sake of sporting an attitude, that's fine... there are enough UNIX elitists around (hey, I'm one too). However, I'm not so blind to believe that we are superior just because we're UNIX. It's easy to sport an attitude and believe you're better while the rest of the world is passing you up on the Microsoft honeywagon. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 12:21:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06342 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06336 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA20237 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:21:42 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA04339 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:21:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11174 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:08:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607101908.VAA11174@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:08:30 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607101655.JAA00383@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at "Jul 10, 96 09:55:34 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > >. GENERIC is known to run on many installed machines, ... > Maybe I have a bad attitude, but... This is Unix. If they can't or > don't want to build their own kernel, they should be running Windows > or OS/2. A bad attitude. Because they don't even bother to ask you before using this kernel on their machines. :-) They simply do it, and i've got the impression that the GENERIC kernels are doing it quite fine for most of them. So while _we_ (the developers) believe nobody would even start without a customized kernel, _they_ (our ``customers'') prove us wrong by simply ignoring us. :-) Get me right, i'm not really arguing for keeping this legacy cruft. Let's face it, the average PeeCee doesn't need more than sio0 and sio1 plus lpt0 plus sc0 plus one disk controller (perhaps two for the inferior case of wdc) plus one ethernet adapter. For people who are running multi-port serial cards, or gateway machines with multiple ethernets, recompiling the kernel is most likely the very first step after the system booted off the hard disk for the first time. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 12:21:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06360 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06337 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA20241 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:21:43 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA04341 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:21:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA11213 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:12:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607101912.VAA11213@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:12:20 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607101721.LAA23842@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Jul 10, 96 11:21:15 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Nate Williams wrote: > Making folks build their own custom kernels is a step in the wrong > direction. We should be providing 'out-of-the-box' solutions solutions > for them in the same manner as pre-built ports. I will fully support this opinion as soon as we have pageable kernel memory. Right now, the kitchen-sink kernel wastes a few hundred pages of valuable physical memory for the average user, i think that's a very high price. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 12:30:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06944 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06937 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09509; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607101929.MAA09509@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "JULIAN Elischer" cc: smpatel@prognet.com (Sujal Patel), hackers@freebsd.org, thorpej@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Puting PnP support into -current by default In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:04:28 PDT." <199607101804.LAA23385@ref.tfs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:29:26 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Careful here with the PnP stuff... At the very least the PnP support should have an interface in the kernel config file similar to the way we currently configured devices. Let me explain, the current gus pnp configuration is as follows: 1. For motherboards which supports PnP device gus0 at isa? vector gusintr In this case, the gus driver at probe times calls its PnP routines to find a GUS PnP and configure it. 2. For motherboards which don't support PnP or have broken PnP support device gus0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 11 drq 5 flags 0x7 vector gusintr In this case, the gus driver at probe times calls the PnP routines however it uses the configuration values pass to the driver to activate and configure the GUS PnP. Experience has shown that if the users have to configure a device in the kernel config file as well in the driver section that it gets confusing;hence, the approach taken with the gus pnp driver. Hope this helps, Amancio >From The Desk Of "JULIAN Elischer" : > > > > > > ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/incoming/FreeBSD-ISA_PnP_June8.tar.gz > I think you meant July8 whe you wrote that file :) > > seriously.. how close is this to being put into the kernel source tree > by default.. > I know I'd like to see it as we recently had to send back > some PnP modems. > > I volunteer to put these into -current if no-one else complains.. > > julian > > > > > Contains a new snapshot of the ISA Plug & Play code. It includes 1 major > > bug fix for pnpinfo, 1 for the kernel code (a really big bug), and also a > > patch for current and 2.1.5 > > > > The code for the 2.1.5 patch is a little neater, even though both kernel > > patches are functionally equivalent. Sorry, there is still no > > autoconfiguration or "nicer" configuration. You'll just have to stuff all > > of the configuration data into a big struct :-) > > > > Sample configurations are included for 4 cards (Sb16, Supra Modem, SMC > > EtherEz, 3Com EtherLink III). The code is believed to work on 100% of > > PnP cards. > > > > > > Sujal > > > > PS: Jason, I forgot who was working on this in your camp, and I don't have > > my email-box handy- Please forward this message to him. Thanks > > > > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 13:15:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09625 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09619 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA13058; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:15:55 +0200 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA02287 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:15:31 +0200 Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA22246 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:22:16 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.6.12/8.6.6) id TAA00464; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:12:16 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199607101712.TAA00464@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: davidg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:12:16 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607101420.HAA03974@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Jul 10, 96 07:20:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As David Greenman wrote... > > >>(For my benefit, can anyone explain why the default port address for ed0 > >>is 0x280? I assume some historical reason, but I really don't know the > >>details....) > > > >It is a common default for WD/SMC cards, which also use the ed driver. On the WD/SMC that are software 'strappable' there is still a jumper to 'hardwire' the board to 0x280 etc. Maybe that is a valid reason? Works even if you lose your DOS-based card setup tool. > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 13:34:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11091 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA11081 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA24839; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:33:43 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:33:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607102033.OAA24839@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607101912.VAA11213@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <199607101721.LAA23842@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199607101912.VAA11213@uriah.heep.sax.de> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Making folks build their own custom kernels is a step in the wrong > > direction. We should be providing 'out-of-the-box' solutions solutions > > for them in the same manner as pre-built ports. > > I will fully support this opinion as soon as we have pageable kernel > memory. Right now, the kitchen-sink kernel wastes a few hundred pages > of valuable physical memory for the average user, i think that's a > very high price. Huh? The kernel that we used to ship vs. the kernel we know will ship (unless Jordan changes his mind) is only different by at most 1-2 pages. We haven't gained the end-user anything significant and caused him more trouble. And, I think the average user would be willing to 'waste' a 100K or so to not have to take up 40MB of disk space for his own custom kernel, which requires sys and usrsbin sources. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:05:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13662 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13651; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA08867 ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:05:14 -0700 Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.7.5/1.2) id OAA05637; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:03:54 -0700 (MST) From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199607102103.OAA05637@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: Q: macro expansion To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers), freebsd-ports@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD ports) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:03:54 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings! I was working on a port last night and stumbled upon this code fragment (paraphrased here): #define X 1 #define Y 2 X+Y I was surprised to see that ``X+Y'' was expanded to ``1 +2''. So, I started digging through ANSI and couldn't seem to locate something to clearly define this behaviour. - why the inserted whitespace? - why no whitespace after `+'? Any insight would be appreciated... --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:06:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13740 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sarenet.es (sollube.sarenet.es [192.148.167.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13730 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arnor.sarenet.es (INFOVIA-B-23.sarenet.es [193.148.39.247]) by sarenet.es (8.7.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id WAA20631 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:55:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <31E41A3B.41C67EA6@we.lc.ehu.es> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:01:47 +0200 From: Borja Marcos X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD keyboard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm sure that most of you, like me, are terribly annoyed by the horrible Loose'95 logos present in modern keyboards. Be sure that standard keyboards will become rare soon. It has many problems. Not only the logo, but the tiny spacebar. Anyway, let's start to fight back the Bill Gates' attempts to put the logo in our computers. What about making a pair of tiny stickers featuring Chuck so that the Loose'95 keyboard becomes a BSD keyboard? Really, I would ind it much more pleasant to use. Perhaps WC could include them with the CD distribution. Borja. -- *********************************************************************** Borja Marcos * Internet: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es Alangoeta, 11 1 izq * borjam@well.com 48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya) * CompuServe: 100015,3502 SPAIN * *********************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:09:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14091 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14083 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA27216; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:02:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607102102.OAA27216@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: davidg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:02:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607101554.IAA04210@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Jul 10, 96 08:54:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Actually, I would really like to see ed1 stay. The ed driver, in my > >opinion, is by far the most popular Ethernet driver, and having two > >interfaces available makes it very easy to rapidly do things like toss > >a second network interface in a machine, build an "emergency router", etc. > >without the downtime required to rebuild a kernel on a 386DX/40 with 8MB of > >RAM (which takes a LONG time). > > What's wrong with using -c at the Boot: prompt? Rebuilding the kernel is > certainly not necessary to get the change in an "emergency" situation. PnP support. PnP will relocate the cards on each boot (potentially), so you must boot -c each time. If, on the other hand, you have multiple interface definitions, then one of them is more likely to hit without needing a reconfig. This is kind of a lame argument, assuming we ever integrate Sutal's PnP patches. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:12:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14330 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14323 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA27228; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:05:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607102105.OAA27228@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:05:33 -0700 (MST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, davidg@Root.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607101640.KAA23663@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jul 10, 96 10:40:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > We have to remove sio3 because we can't disable it by default and it > > > conflicts with the most common SVGA cards. > > > > That's a plausible argument but I remind you that we've been through several > > releases with sio3 enabled. > > Yes, but 'newer' SVGA cards *now* blow up when sio3 is enabled. In the > past this wasn't a big deal, but even in 2.1R we had quite a few folks > who got wiped out by sio3 (read Usenet), and this is only going to get > worse with the faster S3/ATI/Mach cards becoming more commonplace. I posted the assembly code used to detect these cards once already. If you don't probe the location because of an existing conflict with a registration from the console driver, then you don't have a problem. Look at the ATI home page. The assembly code is posted there (as well as being in the -current list archives, thanks to me). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:14:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14480 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14473 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA27247; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:08:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607102108.OAA27247@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:08:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199607101655.JAA00383@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 10, 96 09:55:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Maybe I have a bad attitude, but... This is Unix. If they can't or > don't want to build their own kernel, they should be running Windows > or OS/2. This is Unix, the most sophisticated OS available. It should support use of fallback drivers and dynamic loading of replacement devices as needed, so if they can't or won't build their own kernel, it will have no effect on their ability to run the system, one way or another. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:16:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14671 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA14664 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25223; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:13:01 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:13:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607102113.PAA25223@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, davidg@Root.COM, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607102105.OAA27228@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199607101640.KAA23663@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199607102105.OAA27228@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Yes, but 'newer' SVGA cards *now* blow up when sio3 is enabled. In the > > past this wasn't a big deal, but even in 2.1R we had quite a few folks > > who got wiped out by sio3 (read Usenet), and this is only going to get > > worse with the faster S3/ATI/Mach cards becoming more commonplace. > > I posted the assembly code used to detect these cards once already. Yeah, so? By disabling the probe, we have a solution as well. Having access to pointers to all the relevant information is a good thing, but when the current solution is acceptable then a different solution won't be done. If you think the 'assembly code' probe fix is worth it, generate a set of patches and send them to me and I'll integrate them if I find them acceptable. (And I *do* understand the issues, but don't have time nor desire to fix it like you think it should be fixed.) Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:18:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14850 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com ([204.141.95.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14827 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA11178; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:21:09 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:21:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199607102121.RAA11178@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Nik Clayton From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Having worked with BSD/*nix systems since the mid-80's, as I understand >> it GENERIC wasn't intened to be a 'minimal' kernel with as little wasted >> space as possible, but a 'kitchen-sink' kernel which contained every >> conceivable driver so that you could never had to build a custom kernel > >With this in mind, would it not make sense to have a fairly minimal kernel >on the boot floppy, and include a larger, and more complete 'GENERIC' as >part of the bindist? > >That way you get the best of both worlds. Isnt the idea that the generic kernel will boot on a wide variety of of machines regardless of the cards installed? Is it impossible to have 2 kernels, one generic and one compact? (2 separate boot floppies). It would be cool to be able to boot on a low memory system. Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:19:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15033 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14878 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA27270; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:12:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607102112.OAA27270@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: bootable CD's (fwd) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:12:26 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com In-Reply-To: <199607101822.UAA10672@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Jul 10, 96 08:22:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If anyone comes up with any pointers I am willing to give it a try, I am > > also trying to get the info from gigabyte. > > What magic do you expect? > > I don't know, but i would blindly assume that booting the CD will be > done in the same way as booting any other device. The BIOS code > searches all available devices, and tries to load the very first > sector onto address 0:0x7c00. If the loaded sector ends in 0x55aa, it > will simply be executed. It's up to the executed code to decide what > needs to be done next. That's why you could put a boot-selector MBR > there, or you could put the 7.5 KB BSD bootstrap there as well. > > CD-ROM sectors are 2 KB, not only 512 bytes, but who says you cannot > examine the very first 512 bytes only? Read the Joliet specification from Microsoft. I expect that the Adaptec boot code conforms to this specification. Conforming boot code will read the first sector from the first *session* of a multisession CD, rather than the first sector from the CD itself. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:27:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15594 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15586 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA27299; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:18:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607102118.OAA27299@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: ejs@bfd.com (Eric J. Schwertfeger) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:18:29 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, davidg@Root.COM, dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Eric J. Schwertfeger" at Jul 10, 96 11:32:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > "standard setting" is. sio2/3 have already gone and I can hardly > > accept the argument that 4 port PCs are any kind of norm. I've seen > > literally hundreds of different PC configurations and in all but a few > > very rare cases, it's always the same 2 ser/1 par/1 game combo. > > Agreed with on machines coming off the shelf that way, but most people I > know that add an internal modem add it as com3/irq5, since they don't have > to figure out how to disable a comm port. which isn't 4 port, but it also > isn't two port. Most interrupt capable PC software that supports com3: and com4: do so by allowing only one of com1:/com3: or com2:/com4: to be open and running with interrupts enabled simultaneously. Typically, this means that a "correct" driver would allow com1: and com3: to coexist on the same interrupt, but not allow them to be used simultaneously. This will typically "go to hell" with uugetty/mgetty/etc., which complete the open of the port instead of waiting for a non-interrupt polled event to be detected (like polling the DCD every 100ms). This is all really a moot point: the reason for the com3:/com4: (sio2/3) removal is that our console code (incorrectly) does not implement the MACH32/MACH64 detection code, freely downloadable, usable, and distributable from the ATI WWW site. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:28:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15728 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15715 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA27314; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:22:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607102122.OAA27314@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Puting PnP support into -current by default To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:22:30 -0700 (MST) Cc: julian@ref.tfs.com, smpatel@prognet.com, hackers@freebsd.org, thorpej@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607101929.MAA09509@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Jul 10, 96 12:29:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Careful here with the PnP stuff... > > At the very least the PnP support should have an interface in the > kernel config file similar to the way we currently configured devices. > > Let me explain, the current gus pnp configuration is as follows: > 1. For motherboards which supports PnP > > device gus0 at isa? vector gusintr PNP is a purely ISA phenomenon: device gus0 at pnp? vector gusintr The reasoning is simple: 1) I may have PnP cards, but a non-PnP-BIOS motherboard. 2) I may have a PnP-BIOS motherboard, but plug in a non-PnP card. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:31:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15964 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15959 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA27332; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:25:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607102125.OAA27332@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:25:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, davidg@Root.COM, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607102113.PAA25223@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jul 10, 96 03:13:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Yes, but 'newer' SVGA cards *now* blow up when sio3 is enabled. In the > > > past this wasn't a big deal, but even in 2.1R we had quite a few folks > > > who got wiped out by sio3 (read Usenet), and this is only going to get > > > worse with the faster S3/ATI/Mach cards becoming more commonplace. > > > > I posted the assembly code used to detect these cards once already. > > Yeah, so? By disabling the probe, we have a solution as well. Having > access to pointers to all the relevant information is a good thing, but > when the current solution is acceptable then a different solution won't > be done. If you think the 'assembly code' probe fix is worth it, > generate a set of patches and send them to me and I'll integrate them if > I find them acceptable. (And I *do* understand the issues, but don't > have time nor desire to fix it like you think it should be fixed.) Most machines come with two serial ports. If my PPP connection is via an internal modem, it is impossible for that modem to be anywhere *but* sio2/sio3. How do I install? I don't, I guess. This does not rank high on my "acceptable current soloution" scale. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:36:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16438 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16267 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-2) with ESMTP id WAA02391; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:31:17 +0100 (BST) To: Darren Davis cc: andrew@fortress.org, andrew@novell.com, jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: bootable CD's (fwd) - Reply Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:31:14 +0100 Message-ID: <2389.837034274@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Not picking any particular message in this thread to reply to, but I believe the bootable CD standards can be downloaded from Adaptec site somewhere, since Adaptec (basically, AFAIR) wrote the standard ... Sorry if this is mis-information, but it's from memory, as I'm not really all that interested in it until it becomes more widely available... Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:37:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16491 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hp.com (hp.com [15.255.152.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16472 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xsvr2.cup.hp.com by hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA222214613; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:36:54 -0700 Received: by xsvr2.cup.hp.com (1.39.111.2/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA142464608; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:36:48 -0700 From: "Josef C. Grosch" Message-Id: <9607101436.ZM14244@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:36:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: Borja Marcos "FreeBSD keyboard" (Jul 10, 11:01pm) References: <31E41A3B.41C67EA6@we.lc.ehu.es> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: Borja Marcos Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jul 10, 11:01pm, Borja Marcos wrote: > Subject: FreeBSD keyboard > Hello, > > I'm sure that most of you, like me, are terribly > annoyed by the horrible Loose'95 logos present in modern > keyboards. Be sure that standard keyboards will become rare > soon. > > It has many problems. Not only the logo, but the tiny > spacebar. Anyway, let's start to fight back the Bill Gates' > attempts to put the logo in our computers. What about making > a pair of tiny stickers featuring Chuck so that the Loose'95 > keyboard becomes a BSD keyboard? Really, I would ind it much > more pleasant to use. > > Perhaps WC could include them with the CD > distribution. > >-- End of excerpt from Borja Marcos I agree. I went out last weekend to buy a new keyboard and had to play merry hell to find a "normal" keyboard without that rotten `95 logo. Just rubs me the wrong way to have to look at that thing as I type. Grrrrr. Josef -- Josef Grosch, 47LG4 | jgrosch@cup.hp.com | "Laugh while you can, monky boy!" (408) 447-0467 | - John Warfin - From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:36:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16476 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16465 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25353; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:33:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:33:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607102133.PAA25353@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607102125.OAA27332@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199607102113.PAA25223@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199607102125.OAA27332@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Yeah, so? By disabling the probe, we have a solution as well. Having > > access to pointers to all the relevant information is a good thing, but > > when the current solution is acceptable then a different solution won't > > be done. If you think the 'assembly code' probe fix is worth it, > > generate a set of patches and send them to me and I'll integrate them if > > I find them acceptable. (And I *do* understand the issues, but don't > > have time nor desire to fix it like you think it should be fixed.) > > Most machines come with two serial ports. > > If my PPP connection is via an internal modem, it is impossible for > that modem to be anywhere *but* sio2/sio3. > > How do I install? > > I don't, I guess. You can use sio2, but not sio3. And, if it's on sio3 then it won't work in your computer because of the conflict, so you can't use the modem. > This does not rank high on my "acceptable current soloution" scale. Provide me with a better one. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 14:52:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18309 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18277 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id HAA28066; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:46:32 +1000 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:46:32 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607102146.HAA28066@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: SimsS@Infi.Net, davidg@Root.COM Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>(For my benefit, can anyone explain why the default port address for ed0 >>is 0x280? I assume some historical reason, but I really don't know the >>details....) Perhaps it was to avoid a conflict with another (non-ed) ethercard at 0x300, but nothing is gained if ed1 is on 0x300. >>OK, how 'bout this: I'll endorse nuking the ed1 device, but only if the >>default settings for the ed0 device are changed to 5/300 in GENERIC. What >>say? > This seems reasonable to me. 0x300 is supported by all of the ed-compatible >cards as far as I know. I use 0x300/15 because interrupts below 8 are too scarce towaste on 16-bit cards, so GENERIC kernels never work without boot time configuration here. The factory default is 0x300/3 (irq 3 is the default because the board is designed to work in 8-bit slots and irq 5 is not available on XT's). The wrong GENERIC ed0 works better than the wrong GENERIC ed1 here because the failure is more obvious :-) - when I forget to change the irq, the ed1 probe works because the address is right and interrupt timeouts occur later. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 15:11:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA20158 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA20144 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA04548; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:11:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:11:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <12325.836972831@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > sio2 > sio3 Some people have modems on sio2 or 3 because the UARTs on sio0 and 1 are crappy unbuffered ones. For these people, eliminating sio2 and 3 may not be a complete showstopper, thanks to the -c boot option, but it is a hassles regardless. We are trying to make installation easier, not harder aren't we? Considering that a modem may be instrumental in installing FreeBSD for some people, I'd hope these could stay in unless there is a *really* good reason to zap them. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 15:17:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA20801 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from novell.com (sjf-mh.sjf.novell.com [130.57.10.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20792 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-SJF-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:17:34 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:24:49 -0700 From: Darren Davis To: jgrosch@novell.com, borjam@we.lc.ehu.es Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard - Reply Encoding: 5 Text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I would vote for full replacement key-caps. Just the thought of that damn Windows logo under chuck rubs me the wrong way! Darren From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 15:18:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA20895 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20885 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA13327; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:18:30 +0200 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA06862 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:18:04 +0200 Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA25225 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:08:18 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.6.12/8.6.6) id VAA01967; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:20:16 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199607101920.VAA01967@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:20:15 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607101718.MAA25879@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Jul 10, 96 12:18:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Joe Greco wrote... > > Actually, I have to admit that we have - I brought over bruce's > > disabled keyword changes this morning and used it to disable the psm0 > > driver. However, when I looked at disabling sio3 it was far more > > appealing to me to simply remove it since I can't see how anyone would > > need more than two serial ports for an installation. > > Jordan, > > You're missing it. [del] > > If you have the support for "disabled" keywords... PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, > I BEG YOU, DO IT THAT WAY. You fix the "sio3" problem yet retain the This is OK under the assumption that the sio ports that are disabled _really_ don't touch any hardware. I haven't checked -current sio.c but in 2.1R sio messed up ATI cards even with sio3 not in the kernel. What people frightens even more than building kernels is a black/screwed up screen on installation... :-) Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 15:34:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA22533 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.certix.fr (storm.certix.fr [194.51.232.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA22512 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rafale (pm5-245.sct.fr [194.206.159.245]) by storm.certix.fr (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA02819 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:24:44 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:24:44 +0200 Message-Id: <199607100624.IAA02819@storm.certix.fr> X-Sender: segura@worldnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hackers@freebsd.org From: Fabrice Segura Subject: RE: Some recent changes to GENERIC Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OK to remove sio2, sio3, ltp2 mcd1 and lnc1 OK also to remove lp1 Leave ed1, as it would prevent NE2000 users configured that way to network install FreeBSD (Speaking for me, because for playing with the firewall, I set up a 3rd machine at home with a 170Mb ide disk and NO CD-rom ! ...:-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 15:42:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA23167 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA23161 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.2]) by horst.bfd.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA19555; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:39:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" X-Sender: ejs@harlie To: Terry Lambert cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, davidg@Root.COM, dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607102118.OAA27299@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Agreed with on machines coming off the shelf that way, but most people I > > know that add an internal modem add it as com3/irq5, since they don't have > > to figure out how to disable a comm port. which isn't 4 port, but it also > > isn't two port. > > Most interrupt capable PC software that supports com3: and com4: do so > by allowing only one of com1:/com3: or com2:/com4: to be open and > running with interrupts enabled simultaneously. While I agree that a lot of people don't bother avoiding interrupt conflict, I have to disagree with the software not allowing for it. I honestly can't remember a single program from 5 years of consulting that allowed for com 3 without letting me specify what IRQ com 3 was on. Even Win3.1 (can't speak for older versions) can be set, just not easily. I've seen a lot more braindead hardware (cheap internal modems) that only allow for IRQ 3/4. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 16:07:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24524 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA24503; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA31461; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:04:05 +1000 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:04:05 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607102304.JAA31461@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: dgy@rtd.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Q: macro expansion Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > #define X 1 > #define Y 2 > X+Y >I was surprised to see that ``X+Y'' was expanded to ``1 +2''. So, >I started digging through ANSI and couldn't seem to locate something >to clearly define this behaviour. > - why the inserted whitespace? See the ISO C standard section 6.8.3 (Macro Replacement). Macros are expanded as if they were tokenized before expansion (so a `+' at the end of X doesn't get joined with the `+' in X+ to form a `++' token). This is usually implemented by inserting whitespace so that tokenizing after expansion gives the same result. > - why no whitespace after `+'? This is a bug in gcc-2.6.3. It actually gives `` 1 +2 '', while the version in gcc-2.7.2 gives ``1 + 2 ''. The difference is important for #define Y + int z; main() { printf("%d\n", +Y z); } For gcc-2.6.3, ``+Y z'' expands to ``++ z'' so there is a bogus `++' token and the result is 1. For gcc-2.7.2, it expands to ``+ + z'' and the result is 0. Anyway, don't use `gcc -E' as a general purpose macro expander. `gcc -E -traditional' and /usr/bin/cpp work better. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 16:12:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24852 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com ([206.26.1.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA24847 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com (daemon@localhost) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id SAA03178 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:13:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fa.tdktca.com (bsd.fa.tdktca.com [163.49.131.129]) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id SAA03172 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:13:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rubberneck.fa.tdktca.com (rubberneck.fa.tdktca.com [163.49.136.90]) by fa.tdktca.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA25550; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:16:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <31E43846.2764683D@hiwaay.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:09:58 -0500 From: Steve Price Organization: TDK Corporation of America X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Borja Marcos CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard References: <31E41A3B.41C67EA6@we.lc.ehu.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Borja Marcos wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm sure that most of you, like me, are terribly > annoyed by the horrible Loose'95 logos present in modern > keyboards. Be sure that standard keyboards will become rare > soon. > > It has many problems. Not only the logo, but the tiny > spacebar. Anyway, let's start to fight back the Bill Gates' > attempts to put the logo in our computers. What about making > a pair of tiny stickers featuring Chuck so that the Loose'95 > keyboard becomes a BSD keyboard? Really, I would ind it much > more pleasant to use. > > Perhaps WC could include them with the CD > distribution. > > Borja. Northgate Computer Systems makes a fine keyboard IMHO. I am in no way related to their sales, so I don't get anything from giving them a plug. For anybody that is interested here is their address and phone number: NorthGate Computer Systems, Inc. 141 North Jonathan Blvd. Chaska, MN 55318 Keyboard sales: 1-800-548-1993 This keyboard has a set of dip switches which allows things like swapping the Caps-Lock and Control keys, etc. It even supports making a keyboard with a Dvorak layout. It allows you to configure the keyboard repeat rate, blah, blah, blah... I know this is not the right place for such a topic, so forgive me, but I had to say something. My computer at work is a Dell and it had one of those blooming WinSchnooze keyboards. :( Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 16:17:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA25053 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA25045 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA31905; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:15:13 +1000 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:15:13 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607102315.JAA31905@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC Cc: davidg@Root.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > > We have to remove sio3 because we can't disable it by default and it >> > > conflicts with the most common SVGA cards. We can disable it be default. >I posted the assembly code used to detect these cards once already. >If you don't probe the location because of an existing conflict with >a registration from the console driver, then you don't have a problem. The conflict isn't representable, because ISA configuration only supports one address per device, and that address is 0x60 for the console driver. Then there is the problem that the console device might not be probed before the serial device. There are actually some kludges in the probe order to get the console probed first. These happen to work if the console device is configured. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 16:45:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA26516 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA26487; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA27767; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:39:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607102339.QAA27767@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Q: macro expansion To: dgy@rtd.com (Don Yuniskis) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:39:49 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607102103.OAA05637@seagull.rtd.com> from "Don Yuniskis" at Jul 10, 96 02:03:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Greetings! > I was working on a port last night and stumbled upon this code > fragment (paraphrased here): > #define X 1 > #define Y 2 > X+Y > I was surprised to see that ``X+Y'' was expanded to ``1 +2''. So, > I started digging through ANSI and couldn't seem to locate something > to clearly define this behaviour. > - why the inserted whitespace? > - why no whitespace after `+'? > > Any insight would be appreciated... Because the ANSI C preprocessor didn't want people to use X/**/Y to concatenate X and Y because the people in charge of the decision were weenies with their own axe to grind (and wanted you to use X ## Y instead). __CONCAT(__CONCAT(X,+),Y) ...or take advantage of the whit space insertion ordering: _CONCAT(X,+Y) *bletch*. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 16:46:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA26866 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA26845 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA11542; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:46:26 +1000 From: David Dawes Message-Id: <199607102346.JAA11542@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: davidg@root.com Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:46:26 +1000 (EST) Cc: SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607101420.HAA03974@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Jul 10, 96 07:20:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>(For my benefit, can anyone explain why the default port address for ed0 >>>is 0x280? I assume some historical reason, but I really don't know the >>>details....) >> >>It is a common default for WD/SMC cards, which also use the ed driver. > > So is 0x300. There's even a hard jumper to select it, and I think the >WD/SMC cards are even set to 0x300 out of the box. > >>>OK, how 'bout this: I'll endorse nuking the ed1 device, but only if the >>>default settings for the ed0 device are changed to 5/300 in GENERIC. What >>>say? >> >>No! > > Erm, why? 0x300 is a better default. Well, a lot of the old WD cards I have are set initially to 0x280 (admitedly these are quite old cards, and are set by jumper only). I presumed this was a reason why ed0 used that port, but perhaps cards like this are in the minority now. I wonder if the change will cause hassles for people who may have jumpered their cards to the 5/280 setting to suit ed0 on previous releases. Anyway, for me, booting with -c is no big deal, and I always build a custom kernel after installing. It may be simpler to leave ed0 and ed1 in place, unless either is causing a conflict elsewhere. David From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 16:48:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA27205 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA27179 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA00264; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:45:22 +1000 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:45:22 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607102345.JAA00264@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: ejs@bfd.com, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC Cc: SimsS@infi.net, davidg@Root.COM, dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >While I agree that a lot of people don't bother avoiding interrupt >conflict, I have to disagree with the software not allowing for it. I >honestly can't remember a single program from 5 years of consulting that >allowed for com 3 without letting me specify what IRQ com 3 was on. Even >Win3.1 (can't speak for older versions) can be set, just not easily. Even FreeBSD can be set, just not easily: 1. reboot 2. enter -c at the boot prompt 3. change the config to get interrupts on the ports that you want to use, e.g.: irq sio0 -1 # no irq, i.e., polled mode for sio0 irq sio1 -1 # no irq, i.e., polled mode for sio1 irq sio2 4 # if necessary irq sio3 3 # if necessary or: disable sio0 disable sio1 irq sio2 4 # if necessary enable sio2 irq sio3 3 # if necessary enable sio3 Polled mode is good enough up to 9600 bps if the UART is a 16550. It is just as good as completely disabling the port if the port isn't used. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 16:50:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA27358 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA27347 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA27803; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:45:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607102345.QAA27803@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:45:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607102133.PAA25353@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jul 10, 96 03:33:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This does not rank high on my "acceptable current soloution" scale. > > Provide me with a better one. Lessee... detect the defective hardware and avoifd the probe *only* in the defective hardware case? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 17:15:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA29519 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA29512; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:15:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199607110015.RAA29512@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607101912.VAA11213@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Jul 10, 96 09:12:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > > As Nate Williams wrote: > > > Making folks build their own custom kernels is a step in the wrong > > direction. We should be providing 'out-of-the-box' solutions solutions > > for them in the same manner as pre-built ports. > > I will fully support this opinion as soon as we have pageable kernel > memory. Right now, the kitchen-sink kernel wastes a few hundred pages > of valuable physical memory for the average user, i think that's a > very high price. FreeBSD-questions....thats the place to talk about ditching devices from the GENERIC kernel. ask how many people are running GENERIC. ask how many people know how to make a custom kernel that works. (i get an some message about _hw_float....why???) let those who need/want/can build custom kernels do so. let those who dont/cant/wont run GENERIC, bloated as it may be. jmb ps. all those in favor of removing ed1 and sio2 from GENERIC answer all custom kernle compilation questions. greg lehey can add it as the *first* item in his "how ot get results from freebsd-questions" ;) -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 17:38:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA01385 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.com (ip21-max1-fitch.zipnet.net [199.232.245.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA01380 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA01075; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:28:25 -0400 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199607110028.UAA01075@hda.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: eischen@vigrid.com (Daniel Eischen) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9607101847.AA10469@pcnet1.pcnet.com> from "Daniel Eischen" at Jul 10, 96 02:47:16 pm Reply-to: hdalog@zipnet.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > I'll compromise with you - we keep ed1, which I'm going to fold over > > > since it seems so many WD/NE have a conflicting view of what a > > > "standard setting" is. sio2/3 have already gone and I can hardly > > > accept the argument that 4 port PCs are any kind of norm. I've seen > > > literally hundreds of different PC configurations and in all but a few > > > very rare cases, it's always the same 2 ser/1 par/1 game combo. > > > > One mouse, one modem, ports full. > > > > Now try to add anything. Think of how many serial gizmo's are out there. > > Any home hacker has a mouse and modem, as an absolute freaking minimum. > > Anybody doing anything interesting has more. Like... > > I feel like I don't belong here, but... > > I have to agree with Joe. How many people have internal modems on COM3/4? > How about a PPP install for them? Last week I was working off site with the mouse and a serial line connected to a device I was testing and I had to add a modem. I was happily surprised to find my GENERIC derived kernel had a third serial port configured in it. I know I can build a kernel, but I hadn't built a kernel on that particular machine before and I wasn't at the office. Murphy could have struck. I consider GENERIC to be GENERIC and not MINIMAL - maybe you need a new target. I doubt it costs much - I suggest leaving the third com port in. -- Peter Dufault Real-Time Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 dufault@hda.com Fax: 508 433 5267 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 18:01:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02770 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA02764 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA06016; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:59:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: davidg@Root.COM, Joe Greco , dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:37:29 MDT." <199607101637.KAA23661@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:59:09 -0700 Message-ID: <6014.837046749@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Because it's basically un-documented until *after* the system is > installed. It would be nice to have it explained in the README where > you get the boot floppies, but it isn't. (Or is it that I don't see it > in the GAMMA distribution). Heh? It's always been documented in the hardware guide, which is both included on the boot floppy and referenced in the installation guide. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 18:28:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA03956 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA03951 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA06098; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:27:43 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:18:26 CDT." <199607101718.MAA25879@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:27:43 -0700 Message-ID: <6096.837048463@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > However, read my lips: NEWBIES ARE FRIGHTENED BY THE PROSPECT OF > RECOMPILING KERNELS AND OTHER GURUISH CRAP. It needs to work cleanly > out of the box if we are to have any market appeal. GENERIC probably > runs on 80% of all FreeBSD boxes out there, I would bet. Hey, I even > run GENERIC on some of my systems. It's convenient. It's flexible. > It's the default, too. Ok, Joe, I'm going to put back sio2 and sio3 for you, OK? But I'll also tell you that your argument above is more or less total crapola. Doing their own kernel build is HARDLY something that I'm even going to spare even a recognisable fraction of those users who will be forced in 2.1.5 to build their own kernels, whether or not sio2 and sio3 are back (you never owned a sound card, Joe?). I furthermore seriously doubt that most people will have 4 serial ports enabled for general use and your claims that the world is a 4-port place are entirely inconsistent with my own experience - I think you've fabricated facts rather wildly here in an attempt to support your case. In other words, I don't think it's going to make any truly TANGIBLE difference in the amount of trouble people go through with custom kernels, and your arguments miss the mark entirely if you think you've somehow saved the world by getting me to bring back two lousy serial devices. However, you seem to have a lot of passionate feelings where this is concerned so I'll tell you what: Do something genuinely meaningful about it rather than thinking that you've done your side of the argument proud simply by getting me to put two silly serial devices back. What would be meaningful? Write a kernel configuration front-end that does it all via configuration menus and popup dialog boxes, or set about finishing the infrastructure that Julian started in /usr/src/release to allow independant folks to easily build custom boot floppies for users with sound cards, frame grabbers, what have you. In short, direct all of those strong feelings in a more productive direction that genuinely moves us FORWARD on this issue and I'll say to myself "My my, so Joe Greco actually *does* put his money where his mouth is! I guess I was totally wrong about him being just yet another whining pedant!" :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 21:15:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA12332 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA12317 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id NAA03974; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:14:26 +0900 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:14:26 +0900 Message-Id: <199607110414.NAA03974@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:15:42 -0700. <4399.837015342@time.cdrom.com> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <4399.837015342@time.cdrom.com> jkh@time.cdrom.com writes: >> How long would it take you to do that, seriously? About ten days. >> If you started with >> a fresh 2.1-STABLE tree today, you'd have essentially the same >> sysinstall bits (and docs) I intend to put on the 2.1.5 CD this >> Friday, and I don't expect that'd be any more difficult to retrofit in >> than your 2.2 work since I'm using the same sysinstall sources in both >> branches. If I could get a Japanese installation boot floppy on >> there, I might even wait a day or two past friday. :-) There's one point I worry about. The Kanji console (kon) is ported from Linux, and this console is GPL'ed. I hope it is not the problem because libdialog is in /usr/src/gnu, but I'm worry about this point. We're planning to write original I18N console as the extention of syscons, but it can't be done in a few days of course :-). -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 21:18:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA12557 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA12552 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id XAA26888; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:17:29 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607110417.XAA26888@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:17:28 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <6096.837048463@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 10, 96 06:27:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > However, read my lips: NEWBIES ARE FRIGHTENED BY THE PROSPECT OF > > RECOMPILING KERNELS AND OTHER GURUISH CRAP. It needs to work cleanly > > out of the box if we are to have any market appeal. GENERIC probably > > runs on 80% of all FreeBSD boxes out there, I would bet. Hey, I even > > run GENERIC on some of my systems. It's convenient. It's flexible. > > It's the default, too. > > Ok, Joe, I'm going to put back sio2 and sio3 for you, OK? I don't appreciate your tone. How about you do it for US, the people who will have to deal with your arbitrary implementation decisions on a daily basis? > But I'll also tell you that your argument above is more or less total > crapola. Doing their own kernel build is HARDLY something that I'm > even going to spare even a recognisable fraction of those users who > will be forced in 2.1.5 to build their own kernels, whether or not > sio2 and sio3 are back (you never owned a sound card, Joe?). No, I never have, although at one point somebody did give me a broken SoundBlaster, if you really want to be picky. Several locals I have talked to run GENERIC. Several run custom kernels. Oh.. wait.. what's this.. my home machine. FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #0: Thu Nov 16 10:47:14 1995 jkh@westhill.cdrom.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/GENERIC Wow, I'm running GENERIC. Why? Because it works. I can run X. I can run SLIP or PPP to the office. It does all the things I need it to do. It's not something I'll have to remember how I customized if I ever have a problem and lose my disk. But that's right, Jordan says everyone else in the Universe builds their own custom kernels. > I > furthermore seriously doubt that most people will have 4 serial ports > enabled for general use and your claims that the world is a 4-port > place are entirely inconsistent with my own experience - I think > you've fabricated facts rather wildly here in an attempt to support > your case. Gee, Jordan, I count a lot of agreement in the replies I've seen. The big winner appears to be the case of the Packard-Hell class computer with its two built in serial ports and an internal modem. That's a combination I have personally seen on a LOT of PC's, and I wasn't even the one to think of that obvious scenario. So I'm _obviously_ fabricating facts. > In other words, I don't think it's going to make any truly TANGIBLE > difference in the amount of trouble people go through with custom > kernels, and your arguments miss the mark entirely if you think you've > somehow saved the world by getting me to bring back two lousy serial > devices. I agree, it will not make a bit of difference to the people who go through the trouble of custom kernels. However, you're still missing the boat! Many people choose _NOT_ to go through the trouble of building a custom kernel. That's the situation we are discussing. For the people who choose - for whatever reason - to stick with GENERIC, it offers more instant flexibility in what they can do. And I can picture several reasons for sticking with GENERIC: Newbie, afraid to change the heart of his system. Slow machine (build a kernel on a 386sx/16 once and see what I mean). Low memory machine (build a kernel on a 4MB machine and see what I mean). A quick, temporary install which will be deleted as soon as a project is done with. It's known to work. It supports all common devices by default. Not everyone wants to invest the time to set up and configure a box in an "ideal" fashion. > However, you seem to have a lot of passionate feelings where this is > concerned so I'll tell you what: Do something genuinely meaningful > about it rather than thinking that you've done your side of the > argument proud simply by getting me to put two silly serial devices > back. What would be meaningful? > > Write a kernel configuration front-end that does it all via > configuration menus and popup dialog boxes, or set about finishing the > infrastructure that Julian started in /usr/src/release to allow > independant folks to easily build custom boot floppies for users with > sound cards, frame grabbers, what have you. In short, direct all of > those strong feelings in a more productive direction that genuinely > moves us FORWARD on this issue and I'll say to myself "My my, so Joe > Greco actually *does* put his money where his mouth is! I guess I was > totally wrong about him being just yet another whining pedant!" :-) Jordan, shove it where the sun don't shine. I've visited many subsystems, made many improvements, done much experimentation, submitted lots of patches, and had most of them ignored or postponed for very long periods.. over the years, I've submitted patches for all sorts of things, including the netboot system, disk performance accounting, Kerberos, Kerberized telnet, user-mode PPP, startslip (several times), some obscure C library errors, getty, TCP/IP keepalive stuff, and numerous other things that I've long since forgotten. Of the above list, the only patch that I'm aware of that anybody bothered to do anything with was my initial 2.0A startslip patch, which you applied. I may be forgetting some, but the rate at which patches that I've submitted have been committed has been abysmal. When I have seen something I didn't like, I've fixed it, and submitted it for inclusion so that the rest of the world can benefit too. I call that a "productive direction that genuinely moves us FORWARD" but obviously nobody's been paying attention. Now that I've gotten tired of being ignored, I'm less enthusiastic about submitting what I consider to be "neat feature" patches.. like the PPP autodetecting getty code that I tailored so neatly and easily. Maybe when you learn to take notice of the work a person has done, and perhaps commit various portions of it, that person would be more willing to work on larger projects. Personally I don't have time to piss away on the project you suggested, particularly if it's going to sit in some mouldy old bin someplace after submission, waiting to be processed at some point when it is totally out of date. It's like pulling teeth. I don't particularly see why I should have to go write a whole new piece of code to validate myself in your eyes anyways, since I am simply arguing to maintain what most people would consider to be the status quo. If you asked me to write code to allow config to handle a "disabled" parameter, that would be quite appropriate. As for you, I'll just say this: as president of this organization, you are out of touch with what those of us who are in the real world are doing. That is a massive liability for the FreeBSD Project. Lately, I've seen so much disregard on your part for the rest of the world. You are bullheaded. You go ahead and make arbitrary changes without appropriate discussion beforehand. Three days before -RELEASE, in this case. I don't understand why you think you should be able to do that. There has clearly been a noticeable percentage of people besides me who have objected to this arbitrary change. There have been several people who have indicated that they believe you are misinterpreting the meaning of GENERIC. If you wish to consider me a "whining pedant", that's fine, I really could care less, but I don't seem to be alone. ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 21:45:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA14063 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14055 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA01174; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607110443.VAA01174@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Joe Greco , davidg@root.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 10 Jul 96 09:41:18 -0700. <4556.837016878@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:43:29 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> That's a plausible argument but I remind you that we've been through several >> releases with sio3 enabled. >Actually no, it's been disabled for awhile because it was causing people >big problems in all the release when we DID have it enabled - having >it enabled turned out to be a big mistake! :-) I might point out that NetBSD has had com4 disabled in GENERIC for some time now, for the same reason: it makes it impossible to install on some systems with S3 or ATI MachXX cards, because the probe causes the video card to freak out. Can you seriously give me *any* scenario where you need four com ports to get boot-strapped? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 21:51:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA14243 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14233 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA06047; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607110449.VAA06047@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Joe Greco cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:17:28 CDT." <199607110417.XAA26888@brasil.moneng.mei.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:49:26 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Ok, Joe, I'm going to put back sio2 and sio3 for you, OK? > >I don't appreciate your tone. (...lots of mutual bickering deleted) I think folks need to step back, calm down, take a deep breath, and put this all into perspective. We're talking about a couple of serial port units. It's not the end of the world no matter how it turns out and it certainly isn't worth an argument degenerating into the personal one that it has. Jordan and I are both pretty stressed out right now. This is nothing new, really - it happens every time that a release becomes emminent. Please try to realize this and make an effort to keep the emotions toned down. It doesn't take much to set off a firestorm right now, as this stupid squabble over the serial port units has cleary demonstrated. It's not worth it, folks. It just isn't. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 21:52:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA14292 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14272 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA01629; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607110450.VAA01629@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 10 Jul 96 14:08:02 -0700. <199607102108.OAA27247@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:50:14 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Maybe I have a bad attitude, but... This is Unix. If they can't or >> don't want to build their own kernel, they should be running Windows >> or OS/2. Terry writes: >This is Unix, the most sophisticated OS available. It should support >use of fallback drivers and dynamic loading of replacement devices >as needed, so if they can't or won't build their own kernel, it will >have no effect on their ability to run the system, one way or another. Well, yeah, that's a great goal. But, how do we solve the ATI/S3/com4 conflict and kernel bloat with the source base that exists _right_ _now_ in 2.1.5 (and/or NetBSD 1.2)? Better ideas? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 22:00:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA14848 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA14842 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id OAA04453; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:00:20 +0900 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:00:20 +0900 Message-Id: <199607110500.OAA04453@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:14:26 +0900. <199607110414.NAA03974@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199607110414.NAA03974@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp writes: >> There's one point I worry about. The Kanji console (kon) is ported >> from Linux, and this console is GPL'ed. I hope it is not the problem >> because libdialog is in /usr/src/gnu, but I'm worry about this point. >> >> We're planning to write original I18N console as the extention of >> syscons, but it can't be done in a few days of course :-). Now I've got permission from kon's author to distribute it under BSD copyright notice. So, it has no problem. I'm install 2.1.5-GAMMA on my 2nd laptop and I'll try to port it to 2.1.5. -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 22:06:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA15144 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA15139 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA02216; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607110506.WAA02216@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: John Fieber cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 10 Jul 96 17:11:41 -0500. Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:06:28 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> sio2 >> sio3 >Some people have modems on sio2 or 3 because the UARTs on sio0 >and 1 are crappy unbuffered ones. For these people, eliminating >sio2 and 3 may not be a complete showstopper, thanks to the -c >boot option, but it is a hassles regardless. We are trying to >make installation easier, not harder aren't we? Considering that >a modem may be instrumental in installing FreeBSD for some >people, I'd hope these could stay in unless there is a *really* >good reason to zap them. The point isn't whether it's inconvenient. The question is really if it is a showstopper. While it might be slightly inconvenient for Joe Blow to move his/her modem to a slower serial port temporarily, it's better than having someone's machine go totally dead just trying to boot, which is the situation some people face when com4 (going by DOS numbering here) is in the kernel. Under NetBSD's com driver, there were many reproduceable cases where probing com4 would totally whack out the display (if not the whole machine -- I don't remember), and make the install kernel unusable. >From what I'm hearing, it sounds like the same thing is happening with the FreeBSD sio driver. The hard truth is: some people *can* *not* boot with com4 in the kernel. This typically happens with ATI MachXX and some S3 video cards. Wouldn't it be better if the com/sio drivers were made to probe in a way that wouldn't kill these video cards? Heck yeah! But currently, they don't, and I'm not sure if anyone knows what the secret combination is, anyway. Wouldn't it be better if we could just dynamically load and unload these as kernel modules? Yeah, that would be cool too. But, to my knowledge, that isn't possible with the current driver code. There are a ton of better things we could do, but many of them are accomplished with code that doesn't currently exist. Is it *really* that big a deal? I've heard lots of hyptheticals so far, but I haven't heard anyone yet say "*MY* machine will break if you take these ports out." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 22:16:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA15552 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA15544 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA02261; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607110515.WAA02261@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Borja Marcos cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 10 Jul 96 23:01:47 +0200. <31E41A3B.41C67EA6@we.lc.ehu.es> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:15:48 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm sure that most of you, like me, are terribly >annoyed by the horrible Loose'95 logos present in modern >keyboards. Be sure that standard keyboards will become rare [...] >a pair of tiny stickers featuring Chuck so that the Loose'95 >keyboard becomes a BSD keyboard? Really, I would ind it much >more pleasant to use. While I think it would be extremely great to have a BSD logo on my keyboard... To go off on a total tangent, in spite of the fact that they have a Windows logo on them, I've found the Microsoft Natural Keyboard an exceptionally indispensible thing to have. After using one of these for about a year, I can't hardly type on a "normal" keyboard anymore -- every time I try it seems like I'm practically jamming my hands together and tilting my wrists at really weird angles -- they're just too "unnatural"! (I am a "touch-typist".) My S.O. was getting lots of wrist pain too. She types only on these keyboards now also, and has a lot less problems with her wrists. I don't mean this to sound like one of those cheesy commercial mailings. I just want to let folks know that these things actually work really well. Very highly recommended. And you can even paste a little Chuck over the Windows logo if you want. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 22:18:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA15641 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.my.domain (root@morrison-c09.aa.net [204.157.220.141]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA15635 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (smpatel@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.my.domain (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA01556; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:18:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Sujal Patel X-Sender: smpatel@localhost To: Amancio Hasty cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Puting PnP support into -current by default In-Reply-To: <199607101929.MAA09509@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > device gus0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 11 drq 5 flags 0x7 vector gusintr > > In this case, the gus driver at probe times calls the PnP routines however > it uses the configuration values pass to the driver to activate and > configure the GUS PnP. Unfortunately, simplify it down to a simple case like this isn't easy AT ALL. There are things like logical devices, multiple irqs/drqs, serial numbers, and zillions of other things that need to be handled. Also, the code needs to be generic enough to handle all ISA PnP devices. I'll try to speed up development on this stuff a bit, but I'm still a bit off from being ready to commit. Unless someone *really* wants to see the stuff "kludged" into -current sooner. Sujal From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 22:39:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA17565 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (root@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA17538; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.7.5/1.2) id WAA17247; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:37:58 -0700 (MST) From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199607110537.WAA17247@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: Re: Q: macro expansion To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:37:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: dgy@rtd.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607102304.JAA31461@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jul 11, 96 09:04:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > #define X 1 > > #define Y 2 > > X+Y > >I was surprised to see that ``X+Y'' was expanded to ``1 +2''. So, > >I started digging through ANSI and couldn't seem to locate something > >to clearly define this behaviour. > > - why the inserted whitespace? > > See the ISO C standard section 6.8.3 (Macro Replacement). Macros are > expanded as if they were tokenized before expansion (so a `+' at the Ah! Hadn't realized that! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > end of X doesn't get joined with the `+' in X+ to form a `++' token). > This is usually implemented by inserting whitespace so that tokenizing > after expansion gives the same result. > > > - why no whitespace after `+'? > > This is a bug in gcc-2.6.3. It actually gives `` 1 +2 '', while Thanx! The inconsistency was what had me most confused! > the version in gcc-2.7.2 gives ``1 + 2 ''. The > difference is important for > > #define Y + > int z; > main() { printf("%d\n", +Y z); } > > For gcc-2.6.3, ``+Y z'' expands to ``++ z'' so there is a bogus `++' > token and the result is 1. For gcc-2.7.2, it expands to ``+ + z'' > and the result is 0. > > Anyway, don't use `gcc -E' as a general purpose macro expander. > `gcc -E -traditional' and /usr/bin/cpp work better. Thanx! --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jul 10 23:05:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA19520 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA19513 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12428; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607110605.XAA12428@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Sujal Patel cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Puting PnP support into -current by default In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:18:09 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:05:13 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Mea Culpa... I doubt that there are many devices more complex to configure than the GUS PnP. What I am demonstrating by example and can be easily extended to a more general case, is for a tighter integration between the drivers and the PnP code. It seems to me that the decision to decide what to configure in PnP devices should be localized to the driver. Regards, Amancio >From The Desk Of Sujal Patel : > On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > > device gus0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 11 drq 5 flags 0x7 vector gusintr > > > > In this case, the gus driver at probe times calls the PnP routines however > > it uses the configuration values pass to the driver to activate and > > configure the GUS PnP. > > Unfortunately, simplify it down to a simple case like this isn't easy AT > ALL. There are things like logical devices, multiple irqs/drqs, serial > numbers, and zillions of other things that need to be handled. Also, the > code needs to be generic enough to handle all ISA PnP devices. > > I'll try to speed up development on this stuff a bit, but I'm still a bit > off from being ready to commit. Unless someone *really* wants to see the > stuff "kludged" into -current sooner. > > > Sujal > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 00:52:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA23312 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA23300 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA09331 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:51:59 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA11938 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:51:59 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA14451 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:38:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607110738.JAA14451@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: bootable CD's (fwd) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:38:45 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607102112.OAA27270@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jul 10, 96 02:12:26 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Terry Lambert wrote: > Conforming boot code will read the first sector from the first > *session* of a multisession CD, rather than the first sector from > the CD itself. The first track (of the first session), i assume... but that's not surprising at all, since this *is* the first bytes you can read off a CD-ROM. Everything else (before this) is CD metadata, which is neither CD-ROM nor CD-DA, but is required to provide lead-in frames etc. I didn't expect them to declare the last CD-DA track being the one you're going to boot from. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 00:52:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA23339 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA23284 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA09300 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:51:48 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA11927 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:51:47 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA14338 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:21:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607110721.JAA14338@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:21:22 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from John Fieber at "Jul 10, 96 05:11:41 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John Fieber wrote: > Some people have modems on sio2 or 3 because the UARTs on sio0 > and 1 are crappy unbuffered ones. For these people, eliminating > sio2 and 3 may not be a complete showstopper, thanks to the -c > boot option, but it is a hassles regardless. Note that they will remain using -c anyway, since the likelihood that their internal modem is configured to the IRQ the GENERIC kernel thinks it were is minimal. (Unlike with sio0 and sio1, which use the default IRQ.) Removing sio2 and sio3, thus *forcing* them to think about their hardware, and boot with -c, was IMHO the best effect of Jordan's changes. Sigh, this is the only change he reverted now. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 00:52:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA23345 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA23286 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA09305 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:51:49 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA11928 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:51:49 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA14365 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:26:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607110726.JAA14365@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:26:56 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199607102033.OAA24839@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Jul 10, 96 02:33:43 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Nate Williams wrote: > > I will fully support this opinion as soon as we have pageable kernel > > memory. > Huh? The kernel that we used to ship vs. the kernel we know will ship > (unless Jordan changes his mind) is only different by at most 1-2 > pages. We haven't gained the end-user anything significant and caused > him more trouble. I wrote this earlier. My argumentation was about recommending the use of the GENERIC kernel vs. a customized one. Right now, people using GENERIC are wasting all the space for the various network adapter drivers they don't use, and many people also waste space for the drivers of the SCSI subsystem. > And, I think the average user would be willing to 'waste' a 100K or so > to not have to take up 40MB of disk space for his own custom kernel, > which requires sys and usrsbin sources. For an 8 MB machine, the difference in the kernel size should be quite notable. For a larger machine, it's certainly moot. The cost for compiling the kernel is 20 MB. You don't need usrsbin in source form. As long as you never *upgrade* your kernel sources, the default /usr/sbin/config is always appropriate. We should make it easier for the people to build from the kernel source tree on the second CD-ROM. This way, they only have to make the space for the .o files available. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 01:18:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA24881 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA24874 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id IAA11357; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:17:52 GMT Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:17:51 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: HOSOKAWA Tatsumi cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-Reply-To: <199607110500.OAA04453@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, HOSOKAWA Tatsumi wrote: > Now I've got permission from kon's author to distribute it under BSD > copyright notice. So, it has no problem. > > I'm install 2.1.5-GAMMA on my 2nd laptop and I'll try to port it to > 2.1.5. Excellent!!! :-) Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 01:29:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA25615 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA25609 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA07656; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:26:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com), joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:08:02 PDT." <199607102108.OAA27247@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:26:24 -0700 Message-ID: <7654.837073584@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is Unix, the most sophisticated OS available. It should support > use of fallback drivers and dynamic loading of replacement devices > as needed, so if they can't or won't build their own kernel, it will > have no effect on their ability to run the system, one way or another. Actually, it's more like: "This is Unix, the most sophisticated OS available. You should never ever need to even build a kernel for it since every conceivable feature is either loaded dynamically as an LKM or settable at runtime with sysctl(3). Those few features which fall between the cracks, like serial console selection or netbooting, should be boot-time options (either on the prompt or in the "info area" of the boot blocks)." Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 01:44:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26546 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA26539 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA07721; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:42:19 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: davidg@Root.COM, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au, SimsS@Infi.Net, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:02:14 PDT." <199607102102.OAA27216@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:42:19 -0700 Message-ID: <7719.837074539@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > PnP support. > > PnP will relocate the cards on each boot (potentially), so you must > boot -c each time. Which, IMNSO, would be unacceptable. If PnP is to come in (and I shudder anyway at the thought of Julian bringing in *another* 90% finished opus which he'll then never look at again :-), I think it'll have to be done in a fashion where it's properly integrated with all the other various tools or make a mockery of the very phrase "plug and play." I mean, what would be the point otherwise? PnP is supposed to make the user's life *simpler* :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 01:54:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27169 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA27124 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA07775; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:50:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com Subject: Re: bootable CD's (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:12:26 PDT." <199607102112.OAA27270@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:50:03 -0700 Message-ID: <7773.837075003@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Look, guys, don't sweat it - I wouldn't even know how to burn boot-blocks onto a CD anyway, not to mention the fact that it'd have to work under FreeBSD too since FreeBSD is also now my CD production platform. :-) Jordan > > > If anyone comes up with any pointers I am willing to give it a try, I am > > > also trying to get the info from gigabyte. > > > > What magic do you expect? > > > > I don't know, but i would blindly assume that booting the CD will be > > done in the same way as booting any other device. The BIOS code > > searches all available devices, and tries to load the very first > > sector onto address 0:0x7c00. If the loaded sector ends in 0x55aa, it > > will simply be executed. It's up to the executed code to decide what > > needs to be done next. That's why you could put a boot-selector MBR > > there, or you could put the 7.5 KB BSD bootstrap there as well. > > > > CD-ROM sectors are 2 KB, not only 512 bytes, but who says you cannot > > examine the very first 512 bytes only? > > Read the Joliet specification from Microsoft. > > I expect that the Adaptec boot code conforms to this specification. > > Conforming boot code will read the first sector from the first > *session* of a multisession CD, rather than the first sector from > the CD itself. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 02:38:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA00256 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA00250 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA08177; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:38:22 -0700 (PDT) To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:14:26 +0900." <199607110414.NAA03974@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:38:22 -0700 Message-ID: <8175.837077902@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In article <4399.837015342@time.cdrom.com> > jkh@time.cdrom.com writes: > > >> How long would it take you to do that, seriously? > > About ten days. Ah, OK. That's too late for 2.1.5R, but what we can do instead is something a little nicer - I'll work with you guys to do a follow-on CD to 2.1.5 (say sometime in August/September?) which uses your boot floppy and also has all the cover and backliner text in japanese. It'll be referred to internally as "FreeBSD-J", just as Slackware has its "Slackware-J" Does that sound reasonable? > There's one point I worry about. The Kanji console (kon) is ported > from Linux, and this console is GPL'ed. I hope it is not the problem > because libdialog is in /usr/src/gnu, but I'm worry about this point. Well, we'll have a GPL'd kernel in that case but I certainly intend to put all the sources on the CD anyway and that should satisfy the GPL. > We're planning to write original I18N console as the extention of > syscons, but it can't be done in a few days of course :-). Ultimately, that would be very nice, yes.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 02:54:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA00769 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA00764 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 02:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA17564; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:53:48 +0200 Message-Id: <199607110953.LAA17564@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:53:48 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <8175.837077902@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 11, 96 02:38:22 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who wrote: > > > We're planning to write original I18N console as the extention of > > syscons, but it can't be done in a few days of course :-). > > Ultimately, that would be very nice, yes.. :-) Erhm, could you please coordinate that particular project with me ?? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 03:03:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA01235 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA01230 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA08246; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:02:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Joe Greco cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:17:28 CDT." <199607110417.XAA26888@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:02:45 -0700 Message-ID: <8244.837079365@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't appreciate your tone. The feeling's mutual, Joe. I think it's better if we don't communicate directly anymore and, while I'll not do something as churlish as killfile you, I'd prefer that you make that unnecessary by simply not sending me any mail. As to your contributions mouldering, all I can say is that I'm genuinely sorry to hear that's been your experience. Yes, whatever problems I may have with you or your approach to feeding back on problems, I don't like to see contributions ignored from anyone and, in the case of your ppp extensions to getty, I actually thought it was a pretty neat idea and one I'd like to see out there serving ISPs. It was not, however, in my area of the system at all and and I was thus simply waiting for someone else more involved with ppp (or at least getty) to review and/or commit them. As to my being in or out of touch with the FreeBSD user base, all I can really say is that I received *as many* replies from people saying "yeah, kill sio2 and sio3 - they're waste in GENERIC!" as I did from people defending them, and before I even touched a line of that file I talked to our Principle Architect on the phone and said "David, do you think these should go?" and he said "They should go, they have no place being there" (or words to that basic effect). As far as I remember, we did give David final say in matters like this and it was hardly something I just decided to race off and do without telling anyone. What's more, far from being unresponsive to feedback or good compromise as you suggest, we have evolved instead to a point where we not only have sio2 and sio3 but psm0 also, using the config changes I brought over from -current. This all took, what, maybe 24 hours out of your life but you seem to have found enough time during that period to make a total nuisance out of yourself and alienate me so thoroughly that you might as well send all future mails to /dev/null as send them to me. Frankly, that seems a rather foolish display of impatience and one entirely out of line consider that not ME who's kept your commits out of the tree and I don't deserve your impatience for that. Finally, if your commits have been log-jamming up in a way that's NOT consistent with the experience of many of the other contributors who've come along since well after you did (and you're free to ask some of our "young committers" for their experiences pre-commit access) then perhaps your communications skills should be examined since we clearly wouldn't have any new commits if we turned away *everyone* as you claim you have been - what makes you so special? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 03:05:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA01426 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA01418 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA08261; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:05:35 -0700 (PDT) To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:00:20 +0900." <199607110500.OAA04453@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:05:35 -0700 Message-ID: <8259.837079535@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Now I've got permission from kon's author to distribute it under BSD > copyright notice. So, it has no problem. Great news! > I'm install 2.1.5-GAMMA on my 2nd laptop and I'll try to port it to > 2.1.5. OK, but no big rush - we can take a couple of weeks to do 2.1.5J and do it right, yes? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 03:28:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA02449 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA02444 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA08371; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:28:16 -0700 (PDT) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:21:22 +0200." <199607110721.JAA14338@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:28:16 -0700 Message-ID: <8369.837080896@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Removing sio2 and sio3, thus *forcing* them to think about their > hardware, and boot with -c, was IMHO the best effect of Jordan's > changes. Sigh, this is the only change he reverted now. Well, I did add them back disabled so they at least will not be probed, nor will the user be able to enable them without at least getting into UserConfig a bit - I'd say that should at least give them a *taste* of their hardware. :-) jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 05:26:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA08220 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 05:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suw3svr01.hisd.harris.com (suw3svr01.hisd.harris.com [158.147.19.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA08215 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 05:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suw2k.hisd.harris.com by suw3svr01.hisd.harris.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA20836; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:22:34 -0400 Received: by suw2k.hisd.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00491; Thu, 11 Jul 96 08:19:06 EDT Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 08:19:06 EDT From: jleppek@suw2k.hisd.harris.com (James Leppek) Message-Id: <9607111219.AA00491@suw2k.hisd.harris.com> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: bootable CDs Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, terry@lambert.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for the info I think I have enough now to try a few things. I will let you know how it turns out. Jim Leppek From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 06:13:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA09591 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 06:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from research.gate.nec.co.jp (research.gate.nec.co.jp [202.32.8.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA09586 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 06:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomato.nwk.cl.nec.co.jp by research.gate.nec.co.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/950912) with ESMTP id WAA09468; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:12:57 +0900 (JST) Received: by nwk.cl.nec.co.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/6.4JAIN-nwk-gw+2.1) id WAA05034; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:13:03 +0900 (JST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Completely formatted disk with FreeBSD 2.1-960627-SNAP Reply-To: hino@nwk.cl.nec.co.jp X-Mailer: Mew version 1.03 on Emacs 19.28.1, Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:12:53 +0900 Message-ID: <5340.837090773@nwk.cl.nec.co.jp> From: HINO Koji Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, hackers, While I checked 2.1-960627-SNAP's boot floppy, I found one kernel fault prob. 1. I've used 2.1 RELEASE for a while. It works fine. HW: Pentium & TRITON chipset PCI mother Adaptec PCI SCSI card (2940), NO geometry translation Quantum Fireball 540S (all for FreeBSD) 16Mbytes memory, no 2nd cache X-< 2. Today, I attached Seagate BARRACUDA 4(ST15150N) SCSI disk (about 4G bytes) as second disk(Quantum = SCSI-ID 0 and sd0, Seagate = SCSI-ID 1 and sd1), check the disk with adaptec's BIOS utility, then format the disk with same util. All HW seems good. I boot 2.1 RELEASE. OK. Probe perfectly, but unconfigured. 3. Then I boot with 2.1-960627-SNAP, then division by zero error.... I tried several times, but all the same... 4. I changed adaptec's setting (enable geometry translation for DOS), then boot MS-DOG 6.2, and fdisk it. One 2G partition(slice) was created. Again, I boot with 2.1-960627-SNAP, then.... it boot perfectly! I'm not sure which is the point: * geometry translation setting * writing partition (MBR?) but I have no more time today. If you have already fixed this probrem, please ignore this mail. You, all hackers, should be very busy now! Thanks in advance. And I believe all hacker's work, and success of FreeBSD :-> Koji HINO, from Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 06:16:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA09715 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 06:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA09710 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 06:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA06360; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:15:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:15:53 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607110515.WAA02261@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > To go off on a total tangent, in spite of the fact that they have a > Windows logo on them, I've found the Microsoft Natural Keyboard an > exceptionally indispensible thing to have. After using one of these > for about a year, I can't hardly type on a "normal" keyboard anymore It isn't anything like the Comfort Keyboard (tm), but it cost about $400 less. I have one of the Microsoft keyboards and love it. Besides, if you are a touch typist, you never look down and see the Windows logo anyway. I haven't tried, but you could probably scrape the logo of---they are just decals. I'd rather not give money to Bill, but I also value the health and comfort of my hands and the MS keyboard is the first affordable alternative to the standard layout. The price of the Comfort Keyboard has come down in the past couple years, but its still around US$500. > My S.O. was getting lots of wrist pain too. She types only on these > keyboards now also, and has a lot less problems with her wrists. My wife was getting wrist pains and I made the mistake of loaning her my MS keyboard. I couldn't get it back for a month! It was utter hell. Has anyone tried any of the MS keyboard inspired clones? Micro Warehouse sells a "Tru-Form" keyboard made by Adesso that look almost identical except it has a "eraser" mouse between the keyboard halves. Its about half the price of the MS unit, but a keyboard is not something I'll buy without trying out first. I have not found any dealers with display. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 07:02:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA12166 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA12151 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id AAA13294; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:00:27 +1000 From: David Dawes Message-Id: <199607111400.AAA13294@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:00:26 +1000 (EST) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jul 11, 96 08:15:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >It isn't anything like the Comfort Keyboard (tm), but it cost >about $400 less. I have one of the Microsoft keyboards and love >it. Besides, if you are a touch typist, you never look down and >see the Windows logo anyway. I haven't tried, but you could >probably scrape the logo of---they are just decals. Funny you should say that. The only complaint I've got about my Microsoft Natural keyboard (apart from who makes it) is that the key decals are wearing off the most commonly used keys. I've never had this happen before, even on some el-cheapo keyboards I've used. Of course, with touch typing, the decals are almost redundant. David From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 07:29:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA13880 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scooter.quickweb.com (scooter.quickweb.com [199.212.134.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA13845 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mark@localhost) by scooter.quickweb.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA06531; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:30:16 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:30:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Mayo To: John Fieber cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, John Fieber wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: [SNIP] > Has anyone tried any of the MS keyboard inspired clones? Micro > Warehouse sells a "Tru-Form" keyboard made by Adesso that look > almost identical except it has a "eraser" mouse between the > keyboard halves. Its about half the price of the MS unit, but a > keyboard is not something I'll buy without trying out first. I > have not found any dealers with display. > I tried the "Tru-Form"keyboard. The ergonomics were quite nice - almost no difference from the Microsoft keyboard. Unfortunately, however, the keys didn't "feel" right... not enough posistive feedback from the key press. I hate mushy keyboards, so I couldn't deal with this thing. I'd still be using a 4 year old IBM model M if they didn't kill my wrists. The Microsoft natural is a good keyboard. My wrists love it and it's a dream for touch typists. I'm happy. Too bad it wasn't IBM that made it though!! Plus, it's quite reasonable price - an old IBM will run you $75, it's only an extra $10-15 for the natural.. -Mark :%t$sig -- Oops, thought I was in vi.. ------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | C-Soft www.quickweb.com | ------------------------------------------- > > -john > > == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== > == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 07:57:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16386 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dawn.ww.net (root@dawn.ww.net [193.124.73.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA16221 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alexis@localhost) by dawn.ww.net (8.7.5/alexis 2.5) id SAA12990; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:55:33 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199607111455.SAA12990@dawn.ww.net> Subject: long awaited upsd port to be included into 2.1.5-RELEASE To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:55:32 +0400 (MSD) From: Alexis Yushin Cc: upsd-list@ww.net Reply-To: alexis@ww.net (Alexis Yushin) X-Office-Phone: +380 65 2 26.1410 X-Home-Phone: +380 65 2 27.0747 X-NIC-Handle: AY23 X-RIPE-Handle: AY6-RIPE X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings hackers, After all I just uploaded upsd.tar.gz and upsd-2.0.1.5.tar.gz into freefall:/incoming which are upsd port and upsd 2.0.1.5 distribution. Although many more features are being developed I decided to put this a bit old but most robust version to be included into 2.1.5 and I hope that will do someone good. alexis -- Too old to rock'n'roll: too young to die From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 08:00:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA17167 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jagor.srce.hr (root@jagor.srce.hr [161.53.2.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA16073; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a8-p2-zg.tel.hr [205.219.255.145] by jagor.srce.hr (8.7.5/8.6.12.CI) id QAA06595; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:56:09 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <31E51772.188D@jagor.srce.hr> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:02:10 +0200 From: Sinisa Sehovic X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: announce@freebsd.org CC: hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org, ports@freebsd.org Subject: unsubscribe Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 08:06:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18729 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18715 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <15569(2)>; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:05:14 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177476>; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:05:08 -0700 To: Rick Weldon cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BPF implementation questions In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 Jun 96 19:11:06 PDT." <31D490BA.446B9B3D@wisetech.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:05:03 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Jul11.080508pdt.177476@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <31D490BA.446B9B3D@wisetech.com> you write: >The bpf_hdr is lying to me on >exactly how much TCP data is there in a round about sort of way. No, it's not. It's telling you the length of the packet that it captured off the network. Since Ethernet has a minimum packet length, short packets need to be padded by the sender, and the two extra bytes that you're seeing are padding added by the host that sent the packet. You need to look at the IP length field (0x002c in your example packet, which points at the end of the TCP header) to find the end of the TCP packet. Bill From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 08:11:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19941 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [199.171.26.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA19935 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from IMXGATE.COM by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 9453; Thu, 11 Jul 96 11:11:02 EDT Received: from sv13.cis.squared.com by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 11 Jul 96 11:11:00 EDT Received: from mg01a.mhs.squared.com by sv13.cis.squared.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA50902; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:10:53 -0400 Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by mg01a.mhs.squared.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:09:19 -0400 Message-Id: <7366895B0187397C@mg01a.mhs.squared.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:11:19 -0400 From: "Sexton, Robert" Organization: Square D To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is it possible for us to get away from the use of compilers in kernel config? I come from the SCO world, and we have a nice mechanism for adding and removing devices without recompiling the kernel. It does have to be relinked, but that's a much smaller job. I'm actually oversimplifying a little. SCO (And AT&T, I think) use a table-driven method for deciding what to link in, and then compile a few small binaries which contain tuning parameters. For turnkey systems, they supply a small, primitive compiler for the job. I have touched a few Linux systems, and I'm getting used to the Berkely style kernel config mechanism. I think it's easier to find source code on the BSD kernel system, but ease of configuration leaves a lot to be desired. I don't think make is really a suitable tool for kernel config. I think we all ultimately want the all-singing, all-dancing loadable kernel modules with PnP detection and auto config of devices while simultaneously selecting proper drivers for compatible hardware while working around all known incompatibilites. In the mean time, how about a better way to build a custom kernel, or tune an existing kernel? Robert Sexton. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 08:35:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA25601 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA25570 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.2]) by horst.bfd.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA22069; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:34:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" X-Sender: ejs@harlie To: David Greenman cc: Joe Greco , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607110449.VAA06047@root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, David Greenman wrote: > >> Ok, Joe, I'm going to put back sio2 and sio3 for you, OK? > > > >I don't appreciate your tone. > > (...lots of mutual bickering deleted) > > I think folks need to step back, calm down, take a deep breath, and put > this all into perspective. I'm sorry if I came across as demanding, know-it-all, etc. I do think removing sio2 and sio3 is a mistake. I don't think it's a big enough deal to get everyone all agrivated. If the probe for sio3 is causing problems, then we should find a way to avoid this problem. I don't know how widespread the problem is. I know it exists, but it hasn't affected any of my S3 based computers, and that's the only video chipset I use. It seems to me that the preference would be to 1) probe without invoking the problem (I don't know if we want to include special case detection to detect the problem video cards first). 2) disable the probe for sio3 only, in such a way that it can be reenabled with -c configuration. I thought someone had recently added this ability. Is the problem that this is only in -current? 3) disable sio3 and it's probe, but leave sio2 intact 4) disable sio2 and sio3 Of these, since I ranked them by preference, then obviously I think 1 would be best, since it's transparent to the user. 2 would be transparent to anyone who doesn't have a modem on sio3, and an RTFM to those that do. 3 would mean a kernel recompile in the case of a modem on sio3, and 4 would mean a kernel recompile on sio2 or sio3. As to the last two, a kernel recompile isn't a good answer if they want to install via PPP (maybe yet another boot image? Then we could call it RedHat FreeBSD :-) Also, I don't think we should be putting people in the position of having to recompile the kernel when at all possible. My first *nix machine ran on a 30Meg HD. Some of the machines I administer are running off of 80-120Meg hard drives, because they are only firewalls etc. Now, I've got several FreeBSD machines with pentiums and 1.6-2.8GB worth of fs that I can do a kernel recompile on, but that's just me (and just recently). From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 08:45:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA27867 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA27851 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.2]) by horst.bfd.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA22094; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:44:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" X-Sender: ejs@harlie To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: John Fieber , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607110506.WAA02216@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > that big a deal? I've heard lots of hyptheticals so far, but I > haven't heard anyone yet say "*MY* machine will break if you take > these ports out." It will mean a kernel recompile on 3 of the 4 FreeBSD machines that I administrate, and in one of those cases, the modem in question is the only link to the outside world (including where I would be installing from) so I'd have to install on one of the other machines, create a kernel for the one remote machine, then figure out how to use that kernel on an install disk. This is not something a new user to FreeBSD should have to worry about. Of course, I probably shouldn't be running GENERIC on those machines, so this wouldn't be an entirely bad thing. I think the reason I'm so touchy on this is because people are talking about disabling both sio2 and sio3. If only sio3 is disabled, this becomes a moot point on all 4 machines. If I ever need 4 sio ports, I'll probably go with something other than a stock serial port. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 08:46:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA28113 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA28095 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14807; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:46:31 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma014805; Thu Jul 11 15:46:27 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA04439; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:46:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:46:26 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199607111546.IAA04439@meerkat.mole.org> To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think we all ultimately want the all-singing, all-dancing loadable > kernel modules with PnP detection and auto config of devices while > simultaneously selecting proper drivers for compatible hardware while > working around all known incompatibilites. Not all of us do. At least one of us wants a really fast, really reliable system that makes extremely efficient use of its hardware environment. I suspect that that's not quite compatible with all-singing, all-dancing. Maybe, but I'm sceptical. I wouldn't be horribly unhappy with a SunOS 4.x-like system configuration procedure, but after once again getting used to a full-source configuration procedure, I think I'd miss the flexibility even more than the last time I had to live with SCO, ISC, or AT&T. -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 09:24:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07760 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA07740 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA15051; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:22:31 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma015047; Thu Jul 11 16:22:11 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA04570; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:22:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:22:10 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199607111622.JAA04570@meerkat.mole.org> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com, michaelv@HeadCandy.com Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC Cc: davidg@root.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >> That's a plausible argument but I remind you that we've been through several > >> releases with sio3 enabled. > > >Actually no, it's been disabled for awhile because it was causing people > >big problems in all the release when we DID have it enabled - having > >it enabled turned out to be a big mistake! :-) > > I might point out that NetBSD has had com4 disabled in GENERIC for > some time now, for the same reason: it makes it impossible to install > on some systems with S3 or ATI MachXX cards, because the probe causes > the video card to freak out. > > Can you seriously give me *any* scenario where you need four com ports > to get boot-strapped? > No is the answer to your question. However, I think that folks are missing the difference between a GENERIC (this is the whole enchilada, including the kitchen sink, configurable with -c at boot time so conflicts can be resolved) system, and a MINIMAL (this is what you need to get installed) system. Maybe they aren't, but it seems so. That MINIMAL and GENERIC have to be similar in support for the myriad disk controller, cdrom controller, ethernet combinations is a consequence of the PC marketplace. GENERIC could be the one with two of each ethernet, multiple disk controlers of each type, ... I'd suggest MINIMAL on the boot floppy, and GENERIC in the distribution with a convenient way of getting GENERIC to be the booted-from-disk. This discussion is generating more heat than light. Folks that would normally be polite to each other are snappish. What we need is more stress so they actually start screaming, eh? -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 09:29:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09006 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ormail.intel.com (ormail.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08990 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ichips.intel.com (ichips.intel.com [134.134.50.200]) by ormail.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA18274 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from incognito.intel.com by ichips.intel.com (8.7.4/jIII) id JAA21093; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from loopback.jf.intel.com (loopback.jf.intel.com [127.0.0.1]) by incognito.intel.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA21876 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607111630.JAA21876@incognito.intel.com> X-Authentication-Warning: incognito.intel.com: Host loopback.jf.intel.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:30:27 -0700 From: Mike Haertel Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >To go off on a total tangent, in spite of the fact that they have a >Windows logo on them, I've found the Microsoft Natural Keyboard an >exceptionally indispensible thing to have. [...] Just to continue the tangent, does anybody know of a keyboard with an otherwise identical layout to the Microsoft one, but with the "6" key on the right hand where God intended? I've looked at a lot of other ergonomic keyboards, and they all seem to have some fatal flaw, like putting the "|" key to the *right* of the right shift key... From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 10:25:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA20866 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA20860 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA29355; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:18:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607111718.KAA29355@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:18:01 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199607110450.VAA01629@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 10, 96 09:50:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Maybe I have a bad attitude, but... This is Unix. If they can't or > >> don't want to build their own kernel, they should be running Windows > >> or OS/2. > > Terry writes: > >This is Unix, the most sophisticated OS available. It should support > >use of fallback drivers and dynamic loading of replacement devices > >as needed, so if they can't or won't build their own kernel, it will > >have no effect on their ability to run the system, one way or another. > > Well, yeah, that's a great goal. But, how do we solve the ATI/S3/com4 > conflict and kernel bloat with the source base that exists _right_ > _now_ in 2.1.5 (and/or NetBSD 1.2)? Better ideas? My general soloution to this type of question is to consider how things should be, not how they are, in formulating my answer. I believe that when faced with the task of promoting change, there are two choices: evolutionary and revolutionary. Microsoft and Novell have done the evolutionary, and we are far from satisfied with their results. It is time to try the revolutionary. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 10:38:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21617 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21612 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01531; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:34:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:34:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607111734.LAA01531@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Terry Lambert Cc: michaelv@headcandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607111718.KAA29355@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199607110450.VAA01629@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> <199607111718.KAA29355@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Making *nix be the best OS available ] > > Well, yeah, that's a great goal. But, how do we solve the ATI/S3/com4 > > conflict and kernel bloat with the source base that exists _right_ > > _now_ in 2.1.5 (and/or NetBSD 1.2)? Better ideas? > > My general soloution to this type of question is to consider how > things should be, not how they are, in formulating my answer. And my response is 'provide me with the best solution' if you believe it's such a big deal. Having access to the tools and the documentation to *DO* the best solution is at best 33% of the job. If the project did all the 'tasks' that you gave us 'enough information to do the job with' then we'd have Terry-BSD and no-one would be having fun. But, instead we go have fun and wait for someone else (ie; Terry!) to finish the 'trivial implementations' he claims must be done. *grin* Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 10:49:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22130 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.infinet.com (mail1.infinet.com [206.103.240.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA22124 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from armitage.db-net.com (cmh-p030.infinet.com [206.103.242.30]) by mail1.infinet.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09700; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <31E53E8D.6DCA9A77@cylatech.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:49:01 -0400 From: Wilson MacGyver Organization: CylaTech Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b5aGold (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Borja Marcos CC: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard References: <31E41A3B.41C67EA6@we.lc.ehu.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Borja Marcos wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm sure that most of you, like me, are terribly > annoyed by the horrible Loose'95 logos present in modern > keyboards. Be sure that standard keyboards will become rare > soon. > > It has many problems. Not only the logo, but the tiny > spacebar. Anyway, let's start to fight back the Bill Gates' > attempts to put the logo in our computers. What about making > a pair of tiny stickers featuring Chuck so that the Loose'95 > keyboard becomes a BSD keyboard? Really, I would ind it much > more pleasant to use. Well, those fake tatoo things which WC does carry should work just fine... Wilson MacGyver macgyver@cylatech.com -------------------------------------- Veni, Vidi, Concidi. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 10:51:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22265 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA22253 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA29411; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:44:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607111744.KAA29411@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:44:45 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, michaelv@HeadCandy.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <7654.837073584@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 11, 96 01:26:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This is Unix, the most sophisticated OS available. It should support > > use of fallback drivers and dynamic loading of replacement devices > > as needed, so if they can't or won't build their own kernel, it will > > have no effect on their ability to run the system, one way or another. > > Actually, it's more like: "This is Unix, the most sophisticated OS > available. You should never ever need to even build a kernel for it > since every conceivable feature is either loaded dynamically as an LKM > or settable at runtime with sysctl(3). Those few features which fall > between the cracks, like serial console selection or netbooting, > should be boot-time options (either on the prompt or in the "info > area" of the boot blocks)." Well, yes. But I was going to let them figure out they didn't need to rebuild kernels on their own. Now you've spoiled the "Aha!" experience for everyone. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 10:54:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22438 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scooter.quickweb.com (scooter.quickweb.com [199.212.134.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA22429 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mark@localhost) by scooter.quickweb.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA06878; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:54:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:53:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Mayo To: Mike Haertel cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: <199607111630.JAA21876@incognito.intel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Mike Haertel wrote: > >To go off on a total tangent, in spite of the fact that they have a > >Windows logo on them, I've found the Microsoft Natural Keyboard an > >exceptionally indispensible thing to have. [...] > > Just to continue the tangent, does anybody know of a keyboard with > an otherwise identical layout to the Microsoft one, but with the > "6" key on the right hand where God intended? > > I've looked at a lot of other ergonomic keyboards, and they all > seem to have some fatal flaw, like putting the "|" key to the > *right* of the right shift key... > MTThe MickeySoft Natural keyboard has the "|" key where it should be = above the ENter key. -Mark :%t$sig -- Oops, thought I was in vi.. ------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | C-Soft www.quickweb.com | ------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 11:33:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24278 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from THOR.INNOSOFT.COM (THOR.INNOSOFT.COM [192.160.253.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24271 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INNOSOFT.COM by INNOSOFT.COM (PMDF V5.0-7 #8694) id <01I6Y1969YO08Y4WXW@INNOSOFT.COM>; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:32:21 -0700 (PDT) From: zounds@INNOSOFT.COM Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: <12325.836972831@time.cdrom.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I would also like to remove: > > ed1 > lp1 > > But will wait for more feedback on that (I think that ed1 should at > least go). I've undertaken this housecleaning because I feel that > GENERIC has built up more than its fair share of historical cruft > (many of the doubled entries predating userconfig) and we need to get > back to the concept of GENERIC as a "just get it installed with as > little wasted space as possible so that it still fits on one boot > floppy" kind of kernel image. I have a very inor problem with the fact that you want to delete the ed1 driver from the generic kernel. If you delete the ed1 then please leave the ed0 driver because where I work we use 4 FreeBSD machines that are just for test purposeses but have low-end NE2000 cards that would fail to work with new releases of FreeBSD 2.X and onward because of the non-existance of the ed1 and ed0 drivers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 11:38:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24652 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA24634; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:38:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer Message-Id: <199607111838.LAA24634@freefall.freebsd.org> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: summary of changes my changes in current recently Cc: current@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just so that people have some sort of idea what The folks here at whistle (including me) have been doing. (In -current). Thes have been put back in FreeBSD so they are now generally available. 1/ added kernel level support for appletalk-over-ethernet 2/ added support for the above in netstat, route, ifconfig 3/ added support to the bootblocks (rather crude but..) to allow the user to decide the default string for the next boot, and what to do should that next boot fail.. (try a differnt string?) (revert to the old one?) etc. etc. useful also for setting non-standard bootstrings as the default.. e.g 3:sd(0,f)/kernel.funky 4/ added support for an IP DIVERT capability in the ip-firewall code. this allows arbitrary packets to be diverted to a user-land daemon. such a daemin might impliment ip-address translation.. or packet encryption. Daemons for both these have been written, but it is unlikely that I can release them, however all the hard part has been added to freebsd, so the remaining work for someone to write the daemons again should be within the scope of a standard C programmer, looking for a project. apply within if you need ideas as to how to impliment these.. :) Note that using the IPDIVERT and IPX, an IP-over-IPX tunnel to allow a winsock library to tunnel out over an IPX crippled network would be a trivial matter. (another project for someone?) Re: Appletalk.. Whistle Communications has agreed to supply the netatalk crew with a freeBSD machine, so I hope that in the future, netatalk releases will be native-ports on FreeBSD-current. I expect that Wes will be supplying me with direct -current patches both for the kernel parts and for the daemons themselves. With luck the kernel support for appletalk will also be relevant to the CAP camp. As I don't have netnews here, could someone forward this to there as well? (just to keep people informed about what's going on in -current) (also I think it would be a good idea if everyone were to occasionally report to hackers and netnews what they are working on,. so that we don't duplicate so much and so we get a feeling of how much development is going on.. how about we did a quick roll-call? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 11:48:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25156 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25148 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id UAA13040; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:30:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA01533; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:43:35 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:43:35 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <12325.836972831@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > After speaking with David on the phone, I decided to remove the > following entries from GENERIC: > > sio2 > sio3 > lpt2 > mcd1 > lnc1 ok > I would also like to remove: > > ed1 > lp1 I'd like to see to rm ed1 and put ed0 to ed0 at 0x300-0x31f irq 10 maddr 0xcc000 msize 16384 on isa This is the default jumper setting on a true SMC card. Currently ed1 is auto detected :-( -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 11:48:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25169 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from THOR.INNOSOFT.COM (THOR.INNOSOFT.COM [192.160.253.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25155 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INNOSOFT.COM by INNOSOFT.COM (PMDF V5.0-7 #8694) id <01I6Y1RN80ZC8Y4WXW@INNOSOFT.COM>; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:47:14 -0700 (PDT) From: zounds@INNOSOFT.COM Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-reply-to: <9607101436.ZM14244@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> To: "Josef C. Grosch" Cc: Borja Marcos , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Josef C. Grosch wrote: > On Jul 10, 11:01pm, Borja Marcos wrote: > > Subject: FreeBSD keyboard > > Hello, > > > > I'm sure that most of you, like me, are terribly > > annoyed by the horrible Loose'95 logos present in modern > > keyboards. Be sure that standard keyboards will become rare > > soon. > > > > It has many problems. Not only the logo, but the tiny > > spacebar. Anyway, let's start to fight back the Bill Gates' > > attempts to put the logo in our computers. What about making > > a pair of tiny stickers featuring Chuck so that the Loose'95 > > keyboard becomes a BSD keyboard? Really, I would ind it much > > more pleasant to use. > > > > Perhaps WC could include them with the CD > > distribution. > > > >-- End of excerpt from Borja Marcos > > I agree. I went out last weekend to buy a new keyboard and had to play merry > hell to find a "normal" keyboard without that rotten `95 logo. Just rubs me the > wrong way to have to look at that thing as I type. Grrrrr. > > > Josef > All of the places that I went to trying to find a keyboard only had those freakin' loose'95 stickers on it, so i bought the el'cheapo model and took my exacto knife to those little emblams and scratched the little buggers of and wrote in big black letter (permant pen mind you) at the top of the keyboard, "NOT MICROSOFT COMPATABLE!" Deep down inside I know it is, but hey, you do what makes you feel good. :) Eric From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 11:52:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25495 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25487 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) id UAA13049; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:30:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by klemm.gtn.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA01554; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:45:16 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:45:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andreas Klemm To: David Greenman cc: Steve Sims , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <199607101327.GAA03839@root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, David Greenman wrote: > This seems reasonable to me. 0x300 is supported by all of the ed-compatible > cards as far as I know. Yes, default jumper setting ... Either software config or IRQ 10, I/O 300, cc000 -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 12:25:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27266 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27251 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA25196; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:22:50 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA18525; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:22:50 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id VAA15753; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:18:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607111918.VAA15753@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:18:40 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sextonr.crestvie@squared.com (Sexton Robert) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <7366895B0187397C@mg01a.mhs.squared.com> from "Sexton, Robert" at "Jul 11, 96 11:11:19 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Sexton, Robert wrote: > Is it possible for us to get away from the use of compilers in kernel > config? The problem is that we could no longer use compile-time options. They used to be simple -DFOO macros in the cc command line, and quite many have been converted to "opt_foo.h" include options (so the Makefile dependencies will work again). However, converting every (major) #ifdef into a run-time configurable option will at least take a long time, and it doesn't seem to be *that* desirable at all. AT&T and SCO and [insert your favorite commercial vendor] had a totally different driving force to not use compilers -- they simply didn't want the users the source code. Thus, compile-time options were out of the question at all. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 12:48:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29033 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29028 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id LAA15368 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA16323; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:30:42 +0300 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:30:41 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Sexton, Robert" cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) In-Reply-To: <7366895B0187397C@mg01a.mhs.squared.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Sexton, Robert wrote: > > Is it possible for us to get away from the use of compilers in kernel > config? I come from the SCO world, and we have a nice mechanism for > adding and removing devices without recompiling the kernel. It does have > to be relinked, but that's a much smaller job. I'm actually > oversimplifying a little. SCO (And AT&T, I think) use a table-driven > method for deciding what to link in, and then compile a few small > binaries which contain tuning parameters. For turnkey systems, they > supply a small, primitive compiler for the job. > I have touched a few Linux systems, and I'm getting used to the Berkely > style kernel config mechanism. I think it's easier to find source code > on the BSD kernel system, but ease of configuration leaves a lot to be > desired. I don't think make is really a suitable tool for kernel config. > > I think we all ultimately want the all-singing, all-dancing loadable > kernel modules with PnP detection and auto config of devices while > simultaneously selecting proper drivers for compatible hardware while > working around all known incompatibilites. > In the mean time, how about a better way to build a custom kernel, or > tune an existing kernel? > The "right" way would perhaps be a utility which would allow one to specify which drivers, how many instances, etc. one wants to have and compile a kernel config file from that information? Having precompiled drivers, etc. for only kernel linking should be possible by only some digging in the Makefiles - want to have a try? Sander PS. I do understand having precompiled modules for the kernel would not be to everyones taste - but remeber we are not discussing removing the source distribution... > Robert Sexton. > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 13:33:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02225 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02213 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA10697 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:28:52 -0700 Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id FAA12215; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 05:22:47 +0900 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 05:22:47 +0900 Message-Id: <199607112022.FAA12215@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:05:35 -0700. <8259.837079535@time.cdrom.com> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> OK, but no big rush - we can take a couple of weeks to do 2.1.5J and >> do it right, yes? :-) I'm trying to port it to 2.1.5 and it will takes only one or a few days. If you can wait for one or two days, will you wait for me? hosokawa From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 13:35:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02458 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02448 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA29595; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:34:28 -0700 (PDT) To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jul 1996 05:22:47 +0900." <199607112022.FAA12215@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:34:28 -0700 Message-ID: <29592.837117268@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> OK, but no big rush - we can take a couple of weeks to do 2.1.5J and > >> do it right, yes? :-) > > I'm trying to port it to 2.1.5 and it will takes only one or a few > days. If you can wait for one or two days, will you wait for me? Well, I'm certainly not opposed to waiting in principle, but when I mentioned it to the WC folks they really made it clear that they were much more interested in doing a complete Japanese FreeBSD CD, not just putting a japanese boot.flp image on the existing one. Wouldn't you yourself rather work on a more complete Japanese release of FreeBSD 2.1.5R, where the user will have all the outside packaging and printed instructions in Japanese? It'd take only a few days for WC's Japanese translators to do the cover text and this would give you time to construct your boot floppy properly - when I suggested that 2.1.5J should follow 2.1.5 by 3 or 4 weeks, I wasn't necessarily insisting that it SHOULD take that long. If we can release it a week after 2.1.5R goes out, that's fine too! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 13:36:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02566 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitty.oester.com (kitty.oester.com [206.25.136.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02555; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fatcat.oester.com by kitty.oester.com (8.6.12/1.37) id UAA00206; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:16:26 GMT Message-ID: <31E564ED.5E13@oester.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:32:45 -0700 From: "G.R.Gircys" Reply-To: rich@oester.com Organization: Oesterreich & Assc. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: questions@freebsd.org CC: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: adaptec 154X support Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk freebsd, can someone confirm or deny the following. have a fine ole dx2/66 board with adaptec 1542B (older style with jumpers) - worked flawlessly with bsdi for 2 years - now moving to freebsd and find that during 2.1 install (usually while copying floppy resident files) system either hangs or panics (virt screen 2 messages about scsi bus locked). so i try a newer card - 1542 C/CF series - works great. does freebsd support the older adaptec 154X A/B? in my caseseems the answer is no. thnx, rich From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 13:40:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02979 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de (axp5.fddi5B.fu-berlin.de [160.45.5.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02888 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from titania.physik.fu-berlin.de (titania.physik.fu-berlin.de [160.45.33.86]) by axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA07517 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:39:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from graichen@localhost) by mordillo (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA01306 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:16:33 +0200 From: Thomas Graichen Message-Id: <199607112016.WAA01306@mordillo> Subject: swapon problems To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:16:32 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk i'm currently in the process of setting up a machine for running -current here and run into a problem with swapon i installed the 2.2 snap from the march cd - rebooted it - started a make world after ctm -v -v, cvs co src, etc. and began to edit /etc/* to fit my suits - one of the things i changed there was the swapdevice from wd0s1b to wd0b (i only have FreeBSD on my machine - so i don't need the slice stuff :-) and added other disks and swap partitions too - after that i did a "swapon -a" and got my swap partition again one time as wd0s1b and the second time as wd0b - with my swapspace doubled (but i was'nt happy because after starting to think about what would happend if the system will write to that second swappartition - which is identical with the first ... - half an our later the system died by a memory fault :-( ) the result is: swapon should check if the requested partition is not physically there (at the moment it seems to look only after the name) and say "no" if i want to add the same partition under another name - can someone who cares for swapon please add such a check there (i will have time for actively working on FreeBSD myself earliest in september) t p.s.: is there a way to restart a make world so that it will go on there it stopped ( ... or crashed :-) without doing all from the beginning again ? -- thomas graichen graichen@mail.physik.fu-berlin.de graichen@FreeBSD.org perfection is reached, not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away antoine de saint-exupery From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 13:50:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03567 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de (axp5.fddi5B.fu-berlin.de [160.45.5.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03511 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from titania.physik.fu-berlin.de (titania.physik.fu-berlin.de [160.45.33.86]) by axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA07137 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:48:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from graichen@localhost) by titania.physik.fu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA03185 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:48:54 +0200 From: Thomas Graichen Message-Id: <199607112048.WAA03185@titania.physik.fu-berlin.de> Subject: sio / modem problems To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:48:54 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk can any sio guru please help me ? i have an internal creatix phone-master modem - which will be detected in FreeBSD 2.0.5 but not in the 2.1.0 RELEASE or the march 2.2 snap - it's configured for irq 2 and comport 4 (2e8) - i tried to hack the sioprobe from 2.0.5 quickly into a 2.1.0 kernel - but it didn't help - any ideas ? what has changed since then - bruce or someone else do you have any idea what may be the reason for this behavior - another modem works fine and the 2.0.5 kernel as said before detects it fine (as linux does) ? thanks in adavnce t -- thomas graichen graichen@physik.fu-berlin.de graichen@FreeBSD.org perfection is reached, not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away antoine de saint-exupery From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 14:02:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04469 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04449; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02422; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:01:49 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:01:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607112101.PAA02422@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: rich@oester.com Cc: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: adaptec 154X support In-Reply-To: <31E564ED.5E13@oester.com> References: <31E564ED.5E13@oester.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > can someone confirm or deny the following. > > have a fine ole dx2/66 board with adaptec 1542B (older style with > jumpers) - worked flawlessly with bsdi for 2 years - now moving to > freebsd and find that during 2.1 install (usually while copying floppy > resident files) system either hangs or panics (virt screen 2 messages > about scsi bus locked). > > so i try a newer card - 1542 C/CF series - works great. > > > does freebsd support the older adaptec 154X A/B? in my caseseems the > answer is no. The answer is most *positively* yes. I've been running on a 1542B since before FreeBSD came into existance, and still run it w/out problems. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 14:14:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05363 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05358; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA02542; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:14:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:14:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607112114.PAA02542@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Julian Elischer Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: summary of changes my changes in current recently In-Reply-To: <199607111838.LAA24634@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199607111838.LAA24634@freefall.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just so that people have some sort of idea what The folks here at whistle > (including me) have been doing. (In -current). > Thes have been put back in FreeBSD so they are now generally available. > > 1/ added kernel level support for appletalk-over-ethernet > > 2/ added support for the above in netstat, route, ifconfig .... > Re: Appletalk.. Whistle Communications has agreed to supply > the netatalk crew with a freeBSD machine, so I hope that in > the future, netatalk releases will be native-ports on FreeBSD-current. > I expect that Wes will be supplying me with direct -current patches > both for the kernel parts and for the daemons themselves. > With luck the kernel support for appletalk will also be relevant to > the CAP camp. Wonderful. How do I use it to talk with the Macs in the office, or is this another one of those 'enabling' technologies that's 90% of the way there. :) nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 14:16:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05583 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hp.com (hp.com [15.255.152.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05574 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xsvr2.cup.hp.com by hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA179809809; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:16:50 -0700 Received: by xsvr2.cup.hp.com (1.39.111.2/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA237059809; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:16:49 -0700 From: "Josef C. Grosch" Message-Id: <9607111416.ZM23703@xsvr2.cup.hp.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:16:49 -0700 In-Reply-To: "G.R.Gircys" "adaptec 154X support" (Jul 11, 1:32pm) References: <31E564ED.5E13@oester.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: rich@oester.com Subject: Re: adaptec 154X support Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jul 11, 1:32pm, G.R.Gircys wrote: > Subject: adaptec 154X support > freebsd, > > can someone confirm or deny the following. > > have a fine ole dx2/66 board with adaptec 1542B (older style with > jumpers) - worked flawlessly with bsdi for 2 years - now moving to > freebsd and find that during 2.1 install (usually while copying floppy > resident files) system either hangs or panics (virt screen 2 messages > about scsi bus locked). > > so i try a newer card - 1542 C/CF series - works great. > > > does freebsd support the older adaptec 154X A/B? in my caseseems the > answer is no. > > thnx, > > rich >-- End of excerpt from G.R.Gircys Yes. I have been using a 1542 B since FreeBSD Release 1.0. My main machine is running the latest snapshot 2.2 with a 1542 B without any problems. Josef -- Josef Grosch, 47LG4 | jgrosch@cup.hp.com | "Laugh while you can, monky boy!" (408) 447-0467 | - John Warfin - From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 14:25:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06300 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com ([206.26.1.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06126 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com (daemon@localhost) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id QAA13462 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:24:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fa.tdktca.com (bsd.fa.tdktca.com [163.49.131.129]) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id QAA13456 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:24:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by fa.tdktca.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id QAA03058; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:27:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:27:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Alex Nash To: Thomas Graichen cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sio / modem problems In-Reply-To: <199607112048.WAA03185@titania.physik.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Thomas Graichen wrote: > i have an internal creatix phone-master modem - which will be detected in > FreeBSD 2.0.5 but not in the 2.1.0 RELEASE or the march 2.2 snap - it's > configured for irq 2 and comport 4 (2e8) - i tried to hack the sioprobe > from 2.0.5 quickly into a 2.1.0 kernel - but it didn't help - any ideas ? > > what has changed since then - bruce or someone else do you have any idea what > may be the reason for this behavior - another modem works fine and the 2.0.5 > kernel as said before detects it fine (as linux does) ? I recently fixed a modem detection problem from someone by inserting "DELAY(1000);"'s in sioprobe() everywhere the /* EXTRA DELAY? */ comment appeared. It's a hack, but clearly some portion of that code is running too close to the edge for some (read: cheap?) serial ports (in this case it was an internal Zoom modem in a Packard Bell computer). Unfortunately I was never able to track down exactly where the problem was since each changed required recompiling the kernel on my end and then FTPing it over a 14.4 modem to the end user. As soon as this guy gets sources on his system, I'll resume tracking this down. Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 14:27:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06390 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06380 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misery.sdf.com ([204.244.210.193]) by misery.sdf.com with SMTP id <1162-8984>; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:38:15 -0800 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:38:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Samplonius To: Thomas Graichen cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sio / modem problems In-Reply-To: <199607112048.WAA03185@titania.physik.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Thomas Graichen wrote: > can any sio guru please help me ? > > i have an internal creatix phone-master modem - which will be detected in > FreeBSD 2.0.5 but not in the 2.1.0 RELEASE or the march 2.2 snap - it's > configured for irq 2 and comport 4 (2e8) - i tried to hack the sioprobe You shouldn't put devices on irq 2, as it is used to cascade irqs 8 through 15 irq is only safe on a XT, which has only one irq controller. Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 14:47:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08009 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07998 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA29231; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:46:46 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA20803; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:46:45 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA16624; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:43:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607112143.XAA16624@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: sio / modem problems To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:43:27 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: graichen@axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de, tom@sdf.com (Tom Samplonius) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Tom Samplonius at "Jul 11, 96 02:38:12 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Tom Samplonius wrote: > You shouldn't put devices on irq 2, as it is used to cascade irqs 8 > through 15 > > irq is only safe on a XT, which has only one irq controller. Only partially right. The ISA bus line for IRQ2 is connected to the second IRQ port of the slave PIC, thus known as IRQ9. So you have to configure your card to IRQ2, but your software (kernel) to IRQ9. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 14:47:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08066 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08027; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA10766 ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:47:27 -0700 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id XAA29086; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:41:15 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA20695; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:41:14 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id XAA16491; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:35:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607112135.XAA16491@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: adaptec 154X support To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:35:41 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: questions@freebsd.org, rich@oester.com Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <31E564ED.5E13@oester.com> from "G.R.Gircys" at "Jul 11, 96 01:32:45 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As G.R.Gircys wrote: > does freebsd support the older adaptec 154X A/B? in my caseseems the > answer is no. My scratch machine runs fine with a 1540A, and i know more than one production-level machine that uses a 1540B. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 15:12:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09860 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dorsai.dorsai.org (infi@amanda.dorsai.org [206.127.32.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09849 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dorsai.dorsai.org (5.67b/23Dec93-Dorsai Embassy) id AA16930; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:11:09 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:11:09 -0400 (edt) From: Igigi International To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Narvi wrote: > > PS. I do understand having precompiled modules for the kernel would not > be to everyones taste - but remeber we are not discussing removing the > source distribution... > For those of us with slower computers making kernel binaries reusable would be a GREAT thing. Certian parts of the kernel are rarely reconfigured by most people and can just be relinked in rather than compiled wholesale for each kernel config. This feature is in config -n although it sometimes doesn't do the job right, it doesn't seem to know how to deal with every change. As a practical example of what people have been saying about device tables I've been changing sio and ethernet settings and using config -n, only 5 or so files need to be recompiled that way, most notably ioconf.c. If doing this was made into a stable policy we'd be halfway to linking in various driver modules, no? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 15:55:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12042 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitty.oester.com (kitty.oester.com [206.25.136.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12037; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fatcat.oester.com by kitty.oester.com (8.6.12/1.37) id WAA00414; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:35:17 GMT Message-ID: <31E58575.641C@oester.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:51:33 -0700 From: "G.R.Gircys" Reply-To: rich@oester.com Organization: Oesterreich & Assc. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter CC: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: adaptec 154X support References: <199607112205.SAA27822@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > It should work. I did have problems with my 1542B and put in a CF and > found that the problem was a SCSI-1 drive that thought it was SCSI-2. > I disabled disconnect and sync negotiation on the old HP troublemaker > under the CF and it's been fine. The 1542B worked in the system as well > with the correct jumpering. > i do have a disk jumper problem. this is an old fujitsu drive; had sync problems with it before on various os's. i disabled sync - much better, get's a lot further but still got panic eventually (CCB erros) - so i try this jumper to select scsi I instead of II - this did not work at all. can't find any jumper to control disconnect - will play some more and post results (if any). > I'll try to put a system together to test the 1542B this weekend. > don't bother - from other responses it's obvious freebsd does support old adaptec; from your response, it's pretty obvious to me that i have to play with disk config jumpers. thnx, rich From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 16:06:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA12766 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA12758 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA18667; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:54:57 +1000 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:54:57 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607112254.IAA18667@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: alex@fa.tdktca.com, graichen@axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de Subject: Re: sio / modem problems Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> i have an internal creatix phone-master modem - which will be detected in >> FreeBSD 2.0.5 but not in the 2.1.0 RELEASE or the march 2.2 snap - it's The probe didn't change (not even one byte of the source) between 2.0.5R and 2.1.0R. Revision 1.135 on 25 Feb introduced some delays in the probe in the hope of fixing this problem. These should be in the March 2.2 snap. These changes are missing from -stable :-(. (Or `:-)' if they actually make things worse :-). The probe hasn't changed significantly in -current since rev.1.135. >I recently fixed a modem detection problem from someone by inserting >"DELAY(1000);"'s in sioprobe() everywhere the /* EXTRA DELAY? */ comment >appeared. It's a hack, but clearly some portion of that code is running The delays in rev.1.135 are in slightly different places. They are probably necessary if the UART is actually a bunch of i/o ports under software control. The software can reasonably take a long time to complete a sequence of events that it initiates. OTOH, for events initiated by the host cpu, such as writes to control registers, the UART needs to respond withing a few hundred nsec to preserve 16550 compatibility. Otherwise back to back writes to a control register might lose the intermediate steps... I added delays in exactly the cases where it seems reasonable for the UART to be slow. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 16:06:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA12802 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA12796 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA18895; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:02:11 +1000 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:02:11 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607112302.JAA18895@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: sio / modem problems Cc: graichen@axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de, tom@sdf.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> You shouldn't put devices on irq 2, as it is used to cascade irqs 8 >> through 15 >> >> irq is only safe on a XT, which has only one irq controller. >Only partially right. >The ISA bus line for IRQ2 is connected to the second IRQ port of the >slave PIC, thus known as IRQ9. So you have to configure your card to >IRQ2, but your software (kernel) to IRQ9. Only partially right :-). Config has a kludge in to to map IRQ2 to IRQ9, so that people don't need to know about this complication. Config complains about the misconfiguration so people should know about this problem if they use IRQ2. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 16:37:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA14252 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA14243 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA19841; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:33:33 +1000 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:33:33 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607112333.JAA19841@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: graichen@axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swapon problems Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >i'm currently in the process of setting up a machine for running -current here >and run into a problem with swapon Please report problems in -current to the current mailing list. -hackers is too noisy. >and added other disks and swap partitions too - after that i did a "swapon -a" >and got my swap partition again one time as wd0s1b and the second time as wd0b >- with my swapspace doubled (but i was'nt happy because after starting to >think about what would happend if the system will write to that second >swappartition - which is identical with the first ... - half an our later the >system died by a memory fault :-( ) >the result is: swapon should check if the requested partition is not >physically there (at the moment it seems to look only after the name) and say It is physically there. wd0s1b is physically identical with wd0b. >"no" if i want to add the same partition under another name - can someone who >cares for swapon please add such a check there (i will have time for actively >working on FreeBSD myself earliest in september) swapon() checks but is confused by the alias. This problem is not only in -current :-(. Fix: don't do this. Aliases can be created in other ways, e.g., by duplicating wd0b to wd0h in the label. >p.s.: is there a way to restart a make world so that it will go on there it >stopped ( ... or crashed :-) without doing all from the beginning again ? 1. Usually don't use `make world'. 2. If you are using `make world' and it got through the bootstrap stages, then don't use it the next time. Just use `make' and `su; make install'. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 18:14:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA18307 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iago.ienet.com (iago.ienet.com [207.78.32.53]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18302 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.ienet.com (localhost.ienet.com [127.0.0.1]) by iago.ienet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA25317; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607120113.SAA25317@iago.ienet.com> X-Authentication-Warning: iago.ienet.com: Host localhost.ienet.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG cc: terryl@ienet.com Subject: bizarre network problem Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:13:33 -0700 From: Pius Fischer Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We've been experiencing a strange network problem with a machine running FreeBSD 2.1-stable. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Here's out setup: ---------------------- | portia.ienet.com | ---------------------- ------------------- | Pentium 166 MHz |----|3Com LinkSwitch 1000|--|gate.ienet.com |--> UUNet | FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE | ---------------------- |Cisco 2500 series| ---------------------- ------------------- So, we've got a Cisco connecting us to the Internet via a T-1. The Cisco connects to our Ethernet hub (the LinkSwitch) via 10 Mb/s Ethernet and the LinkSwitch connects to the host portia via 100 Mb/s Ethernet. We've also got a few other hosts connected to the LinkSwitch. The problem is that every once in a while packets coming from the outside (coming in through our Cisco) don't make it to portia. This happens usually whenever there is little network traffic to portia for a period of time. traceroutes from the outside will get to the Cisco but not to portia. We put the Cisco into debugging mode (with 'debug ip packet') and it appears to correctly forward the packets to portia, but a tcpdump process running on portia never showed us any of those packets. This problem never occurs with packets sent from any of the other hosts connected to the Ethernet hub. In fact, if I ping or telnet to portia from one of these local hosts, portia appears to magically wake up and process all packets correctly. And if I'm on portia's console and do an 'arp -a', normally I get a quick response and see the arp cache. However, if this problem is happening, then doing an 'arp -a' takes about 3 or 4 seconds before showing me the cache and, again, portia wakes up and all packets are received and replied to. It appears that at the time the problem is happening, the arp cache entry for the Cisco is incomplete, but that is probably just because it expired and so shouldn't portia just reissue an arp query? Well, I guess it wouldn't if it's not receiving anything to prompt the query. So the question is, is this a problem with the kernel or with our LinkSwitch or with something else? What does 'arp -a' do that could cause the kernel to wake up? It never fails to receive local packets like RIP updates every 30 seconds and broadcast ARP queries, etc., but those, unlike the ping or telnet don't cause it to wake up to remote traffic. portia uses an Intel EtherExpress PRO/100 LAN Adapter and the fxp0 device driver. Any ideas? Thanks, Pius From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 20:41:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26336 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitty.oester.com (kitty.oester.com [206.25.136.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26308; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fatcat.oester.com by kitty.oester.com (8.6.12/1.37) id DAA00832; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:21:31 GMT Message-ID: <31E5C885.1175@oester.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:37:41 -0700 From: "G.R.Gircys" Reply-To: rich@oester.com Organization: Oesterreich & Assc. Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter CC: hackers@freebsd.com, questions@freebsd.com Subject: Re: adaptec 154X support (A/B version) References: <199607112205.SAA27822@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > It should work. I did have problems with my 1542B and put in a CF and > found that the problem was a SCSI-1 drive that thought it was SCSI-2. > I disabled disconnect and sync negotiation on the old HP troublemaker > under the CF and it's been fine. The 1542B worked in the system as well > with the correct jumpering. > i have played with a few drive jumpers and am pretty sure this is a drive problem; not a generic 154X A/B support issue. the drive is an old fujitsu 640mb - i've had similar problems with other os's; found my own notes taped to bottom telling me which os i had to disable sync. though install now actually sometimes gets to start network download, still panics with a ECB invalid segment list error. > I'll try to put a system together to test the 1542B this weekend. > > Bill > no need - from other responses obvious A/B generally do work. thnx, rich From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 22:48:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA03059 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA03054 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA00642; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:42:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607120542.WAA00642@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:42:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199607110450.VAA01629@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 10, 96 09:50:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Maybe I have a bad attitude, but... This is Unix. If they can't or > >> don't want to build their own kernel, they should be running Windows > >> or OS/2. > > Terry writes: > >This is Unix, the most sophisticated OS available. It should support > >use of fallback drivers and dynamic loading of replacement devices > >as needed, so if they can't or won't build their own kernel, it will > >have no effect on their ability to run the system, one way or another. > > Well, yeah, that's a great goal. But, how do we solve the ATI/S3/com4 > conflict and kernel bloat with the source base that exists _right_ > _now_ in 2.1.5 (and/or NetBSD 1.2)? Better ideas? You punt for 2.1.5. I pointed at the ATI code to let someone integrate a patch "unsullied by Terry's grandiose ideas", which would have creeped in had I done a patch, and which seems to be a sticking point for many for a lot of patches. You can't hit a target if you never aim at it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 22:54:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA03657 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA03617 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA00669; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:49:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607120549.WAA00669@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) To: mrm@MARMOT.Mole.ORG (M.R.Murphy) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:49:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com In-Reply-To: <199607111546.IAA04439@meerkat.mole.org> from "M.R.Murphy" at Jul 11, 96 08:46:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I think we all ultimately want the all-singing, all-dancing loadable > > kernel modules with PnP detection and auto config of devices while > > simultaneously selecting proper drivers for compatible hardware while > > working around all known incompatibilites. > > Not all of us do. At least one of us wants a really fast, really reliable > system that makes extremely efficient use of its hardware environment. I > suspect that that's not quite compatible with all-singing, all-dancing. > Maybe, but I'm sceptical. What in particular are you skeptical about? Maybe I can allay some of your fears... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jul 11 23:00:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04341 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA04329 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA00690; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:54:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607120554.WAA00690@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 22:54:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com In-Reply-To: <199607111918.VAA15753@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Jul 11, 96 09:18:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Is it possible for us to get away from the use of compilers in kernel > > config? > > The problem is that we could no longer use compile-time options. They > used to be simple -DFOO macros in the cc command line, and quite many > have been converted to "opt_foo.h" include options (so the Makefile > dependencies will work again). However, converting every (major) > #ifdef into a run-time configurable option will at least take a long > time, and it doesn't seem to be *that* desirable at all. Until you boot -c and want to change the probe-enable flags on com4:. Then you revel in the sysconfig and the boot -c use the same database and that such a conversion was thoughfully done by some sucker^H^H^H^H^H^Hhero. > AT&T and SCO and [insert your favorite commercial vendor] had a > totally different driving force to not use compilers -- they simply > didn't want the users the source code. Thus, compile-time options > were out of the question at all. And they didn't want the users to have bundled compilers. The reduced disk space requirements for the 95% of the user population running vertical market software instead of doing developement was just a happy side-effect. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 00:07:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09105 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09100 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA04083; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607120706.AAA04083@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Tom Samplonius cc: Thomas Graichen , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sio / modem problems In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 11 Jul 96 14:38:12 -0700. Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:06:29 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Thomas Graichen wrote: >> i have an internal creatix phone-master modem - which will be detected in >> FreeBSD 2.0.5 but not in the 2.1.0 RELEASE or the march 2.2 snap - it's >> configured for irq 2 and comport 4 (2e8) - i tried to hack the sioprobe > You shouldn't put devices on irq 2, as it is used to cascade irqs 8 >through 15 > irq is only safe on a XT, which has only one irq controller. Any decent AT motherboard will cascade IRQ 2 to IRQ 9. Just be aware that IRQ 2 on the peripheral really shows up as IRQ 9 to the OS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 00:15:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09603 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA09575; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA23619; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:14:51 +0200 Message-Id: <199607120714.JAA23619@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: summary of changes my changes in current recently To: julian@freefall.freebsd.org (Julian Elischer) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:14:51 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607111838.LAA24634@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Julian Elischer" at Jul 11, 96 11:38:08 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Julian Elischer who wrote: > > > Just so that people have some sort of idea what The folks here at whistle > (including me) have been doing. (In -current). > Thes have been put back in FreeBSD so they are now generally available. ... > 4/ added support for an IP DIVERT capability in the ip-firewall > code. this allows arbitrary packets to be diverted to a user-land > daemon. such a daemin might impliment ip-address translation.. > or packet encryption. > Daemons for both these have been written, but it is unlikely that I can > release them, however all the hard part has been added to freebsd, > so the remaining work for someone to write the daemons again should be > within the scope of a standard C programmer, looking for a project. I have iptranslation almost done, but as a kernel level module hooked into the fw code. It's currently being testet at one of our local ISP's, infact they are the ones that kind of asked for it. The framework could be used to build an userlever daemon as well, so when its ready I'll commit it for reference :) (there are NO strings attached to that code).. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 00:17:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09760 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:17:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09471 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA04428; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607120711.AAA04428@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Andreas Klemm cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 11 Jul 96 19:43:35 +0200. Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:11:48 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'd like to see to rm ed1 and put ed0 to >ed0 at 0x300-0x31f irq 10 maddr 0xcc000 msize 16384 on isa > >This is the default jumper setting on a true SMC card. But it's not the default jumper setting on a "true" true Western Digital ethernet card, which is where these (0x280, etc.) settings came from, I believe. (At least those were the defaults on both of my WD8013EBT cards.) Maybe the 0x300 settings should be ed0 and 0x280 should be ed1, if ed1 is kept at all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 01:24:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13783 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from al.imforei.apana.org.au (al.imforei.apana.org.au [202.12.89.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA13768 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pjchilds@localhost) by al.imforei.apana.org.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA01082; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:54:17 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:54:17 +0930 (CST) From: Peter Childs Message-Id: <199607120824.RAA01082@al.imforei.apana.org.au> To: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Preach it (was Some recent changes to GENERIC) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote... : I believe that when faced with the task of promoting change, there : are two choices: evolutionary and revolutionary. Microsoft and : Novell have done the evolutionary, and we are far from satisfied : with their results. It is time to try the revolutionary. If you have some spare time many of us would be interested in some visionary ideas... new ways of looking at things and others visions can flavor others developments (perhaps for the better!) Peter -- Peter Childs --- http://www.imforei.apana.org.au/~pjchilds The internet is full, please try again in half an hour... From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 01:31:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA14318 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from al.imforei.apana.org.au (al.imforei.apana.org.au [202.12.89.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA14302 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pjchilds@localhost) by al.imforei.apana.org.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01187; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:01:23 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:01:23 +0930 (CST) From: Peter Childs Message-Id: <199607120831.SAA01187@al.imforei.apana.org.au> To: nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: summary of changes my changes in current recently X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199607112114.PAA02542@rocky.mt.sri.com> you wrote: : > Just so that people have some sort of idea what The folks here at whistle : > (including me) have been doing. (In -current). : > Thes have been put back in FreeBSD so they are now generally available. : > : > 1/ added kernel level support for appletalk-over-ethernet : > : > 2/ added support for the above in netstat, route, ifconfig : .... : > Re: Appletalk.. Whistle Communications has agreed to supply : > the netatalk crew with a freeBSD machine, so I hope that in : > the future, netatalk releases will be native-ports on FreeBSD-current. : > I expect that Wes will be supplying me with direct -current patches : > both for the kernel parts and for the daemons themselves. : > With luck the kernel support for appletalk will also be relevant to : > the CAP camp. : Wonderful. How do I use it to talk with the Macs in the office, or is : this another one of those 'enabling' technologies that's 90% of the way : there. :) Its all getting there... CAP works ok at the moment via bpf's and you can check out a "getting started" guide on CAP and FreeBSD (2.1+) at http://www.imforei.apana.org.au/freebsd/freebsd+cap/ : nate Regards, Peter -- Peter Childs --- http://www.imforei.apana.org.au/~pjchilds The internet is full, please try again in half an hour... From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 01:44:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA15309 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA15302; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03733; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:43:57 +0200 (MET DST) To: Peter Childs cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Preach it (was Some recent changes to GENERIC) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:54:17 +0930." <199607120824.RAA01082@al.imforei.apana.org.au> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:43:56 +0200 Message-ID: <3731.837161036@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199607120824.RAA01082@al.imforei.apana.org.au>, Peter Childs writes : >Terry Lambert wrote... > >: I believe that when faced with the task of promoting change, there >: are two choices: evolutionary and revolutionary. Microsoft and >: Novell have done the evolutionary, and we are far from satisfied >: with their results. It is time to try the revolutionary. > > If you have some spare time many of us would be interested in > some visionary ideas... new ways of looking at things and others > visions can flavor others developments (perhaps for the better!) I agree, how about this for a revolution: I have this idea about putting tcl in the kernel. I can imagine some rather interesting possibilities this would give us. Imagine all the "policies" we have, they could be boot-time configurable. When we run out of vm for instance, If we had tcl in the kernel the sysad could do something like: proc out_of_vm {} { foreach p in [procs] { if {[proc argv0 $p] == "emacs"} { proc kill -6 $p } } } I'm almost kidding :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 03:21:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA25871 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sh1.po.iijnet.or.jp (sh1.po.iijnet.or.jp [192.244.177.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA25861 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp (sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp [192.244.177.1]) by sh1.po.iijnet.or.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.3W9) with ESMTP id TAA16932 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:21:48 +0900 Received: from [202.232.16.81] (ppp9072.po.iijnet.or.jp [202.232.16.81]) by sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp (8.6.12+2.5Wb7/3.4W2-nomx) with SMTP id TAA17544 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:21:43 +0900 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:21:43 +0900 Message-Id: <199607121021.TAA17544@sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp> To: hackers@FreeBSD.org From: akapee@po.iijnet.or.jp (Isao Akatsuka) X-Sender: akapee@sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp Subject: This is a Japanese publishing company MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp X-Mailer: Eudora-J(1.3.8-J13) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dear Sirs(The FreeBSD Project), How are you. Our company, Shuwa System CO.,LTD, is the leading publishing company in Japan.We are now planning a book which titled "FreeBSD nyuumon(start up) Kit for 98 users". We intend to introduce "FreeBSD2.1.0R" for Japanese NEC(98) users. We could be appreciate it if you give us permission to put the article in our book and its premium disk. We hope to tell us the following qustions. --Can we redistribute selected "FreeBSD2.1.0R" for 98-series? --Can we redistribute "FreeBSD2.1.5R" for IBM-PC? We hope to hear favorably from you soon. The specification of the book is as follows: Book Title: FreeBSD nyuumon(start up) kit for 98 users Price: 2,900 Yen Number of Pages: 200 Size: 182mm x 234mm Attachment: CD-ROM DISK Sincerely yours, Isao Akatsuka, Editor e-mail:akapee@po.iijnet.or.jp Shuwa System Co.,Ltd 1-26-1 Juko BLDG. Akasaka Minatoku Tokyo, 107 Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 03:31:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA26961 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA26949 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Haldjas.folklore.ee by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA02672 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:30:06 -0700 Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA07724; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:43:42 +0300 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:43:42 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk Cc: "\"Narviel.Beyer <\"Narviel.Beyer" "@net-tel.co.uk>"@net-tel.co.uk, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Re(2): [Fwd: Parallel laplink abuse leads to death of kernel secondary timer] In-Reply-To: <"16130-960709213648-4669*/G=Andrew/S=Gordon/O=NET-TEL Computer Systems Ltd/PRMD=NET-TEL/ADMD=Gold 400/C=GB/"@MHS> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996 Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk wrote: > > Is there a way of getting information (and enough information to > > for programming) on the new (ECP and also EPP ?) parallel port > > modes? Also, is anyone actually working with the lpt driver to > > allow bidirectional? > > I have been collecting info on this subject, but am unlikely to actually work on it in the near future. > > There is some info on the bidirectional modes at http://www.fapo.com/, though this is mostly about what it looks like from outside the PC, rather than programming information. Also somwhere on the web I found datasheets on some NatSemi chips that implement the various parallel port modes. Finally, the only complete documentation on how to program ECP mode (including how to probe for what sort of ports you have got) seems to be in the Microsoft Developer Network - I couldn't find it on the Microsoft web site, but it is on the MSDN CDs. > Could you send them to me in uuencoded format? I looked at the microsoft ftp site, but they don't have that information there among the other MSDN articles available. www.fapo.com isn't too informative... And Alta Vista search for parallel port programming didn't return too much information - that the is a thing called parallel port FAQ (the maintainer wants information on EPP and ECP aswell), and that there is a book in the making about parallel port, it's programming, etc. Sander From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 03:31:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA26978 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA26963 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Haldjas.folklore.ee by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA02721 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:30:37 -0700 Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA05894; Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:44:30 +0300 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:44:30 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some recent changes to GENERIC In-Reply-To: <12325.836972831@time.cdrom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > After speaking with David on the phone, I decided to remove the > following entries from GENERIC: > > sio2 > sio3 > lpt2 > mcd1 > lnc1 > > I would also like to remove: > > ed1 It will likely cause a lot of trouble to several people - round all the ne2000s and compatibles are sold preconfigured for - let's say ed1 - all the parameters fit. It's a kind of positive to see FreeBSD find your card on the first try - especially when you don't know right away whetever you are going to have a lot of troubles getting the processor, cache, motherboard, memory and FreeBSD talking to each other seemlessly. But there seems also to be quite some people with their ne2000s on settings for ed0 - Couldn't the driver be made check for alternative values? A list of alternative values? And not by default but if an option is set. Or make the boot blocks on the floppy first boot to the userconfig? > lp1 Having more than one parallel port configured in isn't IMHO that important - what would you use it for at the install phase? If you really happen to have two of them - you can switch the printer and PLIP cable for the time and later make a custom kernel with as many entries as you like. Switching the cables is not that hard. Sander > But will wait for more feedback on that (I think that ed1 should at > least go). I've undertaken this housecleaning because I feel that > GENERIC has built up more than its fair share of historical cruft > (many of the doubled entries predating userconfig) and we need to get > back to the concept of GENERIC as a "just get it installed with as > little wasted space as possible so that it still fits on one boot > floppy" kind of kernel image. As I said, many of the items I > elimiated were also historical relics from before userconfig and > there's no reason in the world why you now can't just tweak, say, sio0 > to match whatever port you like (as goes for all the ethernet > drivers). Once you're up, you can then compile a kernel which matches > your various audio/video/controller cards and jettison GENERIC like a > multi-stage rocket discards its booster stage. :-) > > I also don't really want to get into an extended debate on how someone > really liked the handiness of having, say, sio2 and sio3 around so > that they never had to compile a kernel to recognise their 4-port > serial gommulator card. GENERIC isn't meant to please everyone or > it'd have sound blaster and joystick entries and in there too. :-) > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 03:43:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA28397 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA28384 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id DAA01710; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607121043.DAA01710@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: akapee@po.iijnet.or.jp (Isao Akatsuka) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: This is a Japanese publishing company In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:21:43 +0900." <199607121021.TAA17544@sh0.po.iijnet.or.jp> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@root.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 03:43:24 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Dear Sirs(The FreeBSD Project), > > How are you. Our company, Shuwa System CO.,LTD, is the leading > publishing company in Japan.We are now planning a book which > titled "FreeBSD nyuumon(start up) Kit for 98 users". > We intend to introduce "FreeBSD2.1.0R" for Japanese NEC(98) users. > > We could be appreciate it if you give us permission to >put the article in our book and its premium disk. > > We hope to tell us the following qustions. > >--Can we redistribute selected "FreeBSD2.1.0R" for 98-series? Yes. >--Can we redistribute "FreeBSD2.1.5R" for IBM-PC? Yes. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 05:31:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA09274 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 05:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA09260 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 05:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id VAA21289; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:31:26 +0900 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:31:26 +0900 Message-Id: <199607121231.VAA21289@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Jul 1996 05:22:47 +0900. <199607112022.FAA12215@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I'm trying to port it to 2.1.5 and it will takes only one or a few >> days. If you can wait for one or two days, will you wait for me? ftp://ryukyu.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/pub/alpha-test/jboot/boot.flp the first Japanese boot.flp for 2.1.5-RELEASE I used it for installation on my machine, I found some minor problems. I'll fix this problem at once. hosokawa From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 08:33:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19424 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA19413 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA22567; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:31:23 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma022563; Fri Jul 12 15:30:54 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA07385; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:30:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:30:54 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199607121530.IAA07385@meerkat.mole.org> To: mrm@mole.Mole.ORG, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > I think we all ultimately want the all-singing, all-dancing loadable > > > kernel modules with PnP detection and auto config of devices while > > > simultaneously selecting proper drivers for compatible hardware while > > > working around all known incompatibilites. > > > > Not all of us do. At least one of us wants a really fast, really reliable > > system that makes extremely efficient use of its hardware environment. I > > suspect that that's not quite compatible with all-singing, all-dancing. > > Maybe, but I'm sceptical. ^ my spelling for one thing :-) > > What in particular are you skeptical about? Maybe I can allay some > of your fears... > I've never yet seen an operating system de-bloat. I've never yet seen more complicated more maintainable than less complicated. I've never yet seen "I'll have this examine the hardware and determine _exactly_ what it is and what the user _intends_ to be done with it" work correctly all the time. I keep waiting for DWIM, but I'm not holding my breath. I tend to like an approach that involves: 1) a 1-page install document, the first sentence of which directs the installer to a reference to be read and understood if he doesn't understand the 1-page install document, I don't mean just a Xerox(tm) copy of a directory listing with the octal code for the bootstrap hand written on the side, but a reasonable "Do this in this order" document, 2) one diskette/tape/cd/papertape to get the system in absolute minimum form to disk, doing what the installer asks the installation to do, using command lines if necessary, and restartable without having to go through the whole thing from the beginning if a mistake is made, and, 3) once the barebones system is on disk, configure and load away, but don't do it from that annoyingly slow diskette. That diskette, that, if I screw up because I'm a doofus, I may have to recreate more than once. If used properly, vi is a reasonable configuration tool. Yeah, I'm thinking about putting together an installation that does this. Not too hard, but thinking about it. What stops me is that I think that a plethora (check my spelling again) of intallations a la Slackware, Red Hat, Debian, ..., probably do more harm than good. I think the Free/Net/Open split was lamentable. This also means I'm not fond of "Now would be a great time to register your product." in flashing boxes on the screen with images of Lake Washington drifting ever-so-gently in the background, or "Here's a hint since you didn't read the documentation." popping up every few moments. I'd sometimes just like it to be KISS. I watch DG and JD make a really slick VM, but I wonder if it's too complicated to really rid of bugs, and I wonder if only 3 people understanding it (and maybe not all of it at once) is good, and I watch -stable sup have the install procedure updated every night, and I wonder about less being better than more. I appreciate (emphasize greatly appreciate) the work that those referenced directly and indirectly above have done. I just wonder. I hope the folks working on it are having fun, heaven knows they aren't paid enough or given enough credit for their work. I had a 386bsd0.1.2 system up for 450 days running X. I'd'a kept it but the new features so outweigh the old that I switched. I'm glad I did, but I still wish for simplicity. It wasn't too specific in explaining fears, sorry. I'm going to go and take my medication now. Regards, Mike -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 09:24:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23090 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (root@linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA23070; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uni4nn.iaf.nl (root@uni4nn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.33]) by linux4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA20980; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:25:21 +0200 Received: by uni4nn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA10308 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:25:08 +0200 Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA04761 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:44:52 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.6.12/8.6.6) id RAA00308; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:54:30 +0200 From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199607121554.RAA00308@yedi.iaf.nl> X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands Subject: Re: adaptec 154X support To: rich@oester.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 17:54:29 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <31E564ED.5E13@oester.com> from "G.R.Gircys" at Jul 11, 96 01:32:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As G.R.Gircys wrote... > have a fine ole dx2/66 board with adaptec 1542B (older style with > jumpers) - worked flawlessly with bsdi for 2 years - now moving to > freebsd and find that during 2.1 install (usually while copying floppy > resident files) system either hangs or panics (virt screen 2 messages > about scsi bus locked). > > so i try a newer card - 1542 C/CF series - works great. > > > does freebsd support the older adaptec 154X A/B? in my caseseems the > answer is no. My AH1542A (even older) works just fine.. Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Wilko Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem - The Netherlands -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 09:33:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23999 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23988 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA09743; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:23:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven G. Kargl" Message-Id: <199607121623.JAA09743@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: summary of changes my changes in current recently To: pjchilds@imforei.apana.org.au (Peter Childs) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607120831.SAA01187@al.imforei.apana.org.au> from Peter Childs at "Jul 12, 96 06:01:23 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Peter Childs: > In article <199607112114.PAA02542@rocky.mt.sri.com> you wrote: > : > Just so that people have some sort of idea what The folks here at whistle > : > (including me) have been doing. (In -current). > : > These have been put back in FreeBSD so they are now generally available. > : > > : > 1/ added kernel level support for appletalk-over-ethernet > : > > : > 2/ added support for the above in netstat, route, ifconfig > > : .... > > : > Re: Appletalk.. Whistle Communications has agreed to supply > : > the netatalk crew with a freeBSD machine, so I hope that in > : > the future, netatalk releases will be native-ports on FreeBSD-current. > : > I expect that Wes will be supplying me with direct -current patches > : > both for the kernel parts and for the daemons themselves. > : > With luck the kernel support for appletalk will also be relevant to > : > the CAP camp. > > : Wonderful. How do I use it to talk with the Macs in the office, or is > : this another one of those 'enabling' technologies that's 90% of the way > : there. :) > > Its all getting there... CAP works ok at the moment via bpf's and you > can check out a "getting started" guide on CAP and FreeBSD (2.1+) > at > > http://www.imforei.apana.org.au/freebsd/freebsd+cap/ > > : nate > > Regards, > Peter > Peter, I don't think you understand Nate's point. Julian integrated the required *kernel changes* from the netatalk program. He did not commit the other essential parts of netatalk to -current; i.e., the daemons and manpages. The questions is ``Can I retrieve netatalk-1.3.3.tar.gz from umich.edu; compile atalkd; and expect it to magically work with Julian's changes?'' (Atalkd is the Appletalk daemon.) Nate's point is that Julian's effort left out the most important 10%. PS: The last time I checked netatalk outperformed CAP. -- Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 10:04:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26598 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (uswgco3.uswest.com [206.196.133.82]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26587 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from egate.mnet.uswest.com (egate.mnet.uswest.com [151.116.23.138]) by uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (8.7.5/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA14909 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:03:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from easthub (easthub.mnet.uswest.com [151.117.26.86]) by egate.mnet.uswest.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA29289 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:03:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: by easthub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.951228) Received: by acs.uswest.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23790; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:03:26 -0500 Received: from astro.acs.uswest.com by acs.uswest.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA23781; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:03:16 -0500 Received: by astro.acs.uswest.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA15236; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:01:46 -0500 From: ptroot@uswest.com (Paul T. Root) Message-Id: <199607121701.MAA15236@astro.acs.uswest.com> Subject: Re: adaptec 154X support To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:01:46 -0500 (CDT) Cc: rich@oester.com, questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607121554.RAA00308@yedi.iaf.nl> from "Wilko Bulte" at Jul 12, 96 05:54:29 pm X-Organization: !nterprise Networking Services X-Phone: (612) 663-1979 X-Fax: (612) 663-8030 X-Page: (800) SKY-PAGE PIN: 537-7270 X-Address: 200 S. 5th St., Suite 1100 X-Address: Minneapolis, MN 55402 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In a previous message, Wilko Bulte said: > > As G.R.Gircys wrote... > > > have a fine ole dx2/66 board with adaptec 1542B (older style with > > jumpers) - worked flawlessly with bsdi for 2 years - now moving to > > freebsd and find that during 2.1 install (usually while copying floppy > > resident files) system either hangs or panics (virt screen 2 messages > > about scsi bus locked). > > > > so i try a newer card - 1542 C/CF series - works great. > > > > > > does freebsd support the older adaptec 154X A/B? in my caseseems the > > answer is no. > > My AH1542A (even older) works just fine.. I have a dx2/50 and a 1542B. No problems with BSDI (older), Solaris (2.1, 2.4, 2.5 Beta) and FreeBSD 2.1. -- Paul T. Root - USWEST !NTERPRISE Networking Service ptroot@uswest.com Cold-hearted orb that rules the night Removes the colors from our sight Red is gray, and yellow white But we decide which is right And which is a quantization error. (Jef Poskanzer - via The Moody Blues) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 11:13:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02037 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA02032 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA01717; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:06:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607121806.LAA01717@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:06:18 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp In-Reply-To: <199607121231.VAA21289@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> from "HOSOKAWA Tatsumi" at Jul 12, 96 09:31:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> I'm trying to port it to 2.1.5 and it will takes only one or a few > >> days. If you can wait for one or two days, will you wait for me? > > ftp://ryukyu.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/pub/alpha-test/jboot/boot.flp ^^^^^^ Tee hee hee... Anata wa otaku des ka? > the first Japanese boot.flp for 2.1.5-RELEASE > > I used it for installation on my machine, I found some minor problems. > I'll fix this problem at once. Let me give it a try... people around here are talking about 120 day turnaround for install translations (the weenies). This ought to hit them upsode the head. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 11:46:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04058 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04053 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA01785; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:40:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607121840.LAA01785@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:40:01 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The following screens have not been translated: o hardware o quick install guide o copyright (probably does not need it or want it) o release notes o sysinstall o HTML error dialog ("this option may only...") o Upgrade procedure Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 12:08:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA07272 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA07259 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id TAA22615; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:07:59 GMT Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 04:07:59 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Terry Lambert cc: HOSOKAWA Tatsumi , jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-Reply-To: <199607121806.LAA01717@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > Let me give it a try... people around here are talking about 120 > day turnaround for install translations (the weenies). This ought > to hit them upsode the head. 8-). Uso!!! Nihongo mo kakemasu ka? Shinjiribaburu!!! Sorry. I'm going to bed. :-) mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 14:12:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16623 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16613 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA01969; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:06:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607122106.OAA01969@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) To: mrm@Mole.ORG (M.R.Murphy) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:06:41 -0700 (MST) Cc: mrm@mole.Mole.ORG, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com In-Reply-To: <199607121530.IAA07385@meerkat.mole.org> from "M.R.Murphy" at Jul 12, 96 08:30:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > I think we all ultimately want the all-singing, all-dancing loadable > > > > kernel modules with PnP detection and auto config of devices while > > > > simultaneously selecting proper drivers for compatible hardware while > > > > working around all known incompatibilites. > > > > > > Not all of us do. At least one of us wants a really fast, really reliable > > > system that makes extremely efficient use of its hardware environment. I > > > suspect that that's not quite compatible with all-singing, all-dancing. > > > Maybe, but I'm sceptical. > ^ my spelling for one thing :-) > > > What in particular are you skeptical about? Maybe I can allay some > > of your fears... > > > I've never yet seen an operating system de-bloat. I've never yet seen more > complicated more maintainable than less complicated. I've never yet seen > "I'll have this examine the hardware and determine _exactly_ what it is > and what the user _intends_ to be done with it" work correctly all the > time. I keep waiting for DWIM, but I'm not holding my breath. I believe it is a technology issue related to fractal complexity of software problem soloutions. To un-technobabble that, "it has to get harder before it can get easier". The absolute minimal interface for support of boot-critical devices for everything but network interfaces is a BIOS interface. Network interfaces can be handled as server (protected mode) ODI, or NDIS (driver disks come with every interface card). CDROM can be handled with MSCDEX (again, driver disks come with every interface card and/or standard interface drive). A minimal interface soloution gives you the smallest possible fan-out for a minimal footprint kernel that works with all hardware. This requires VM86() capability to achieve, at the smallest possible fan-out achievable for PC hardware. >From there, you want to start dealing with performance. The ability to interleave instead of seliazing requests requires protected mode drivers. Generic poerformance issues (like INT 10 video BIOS disabling all interrupts instead of waiting for the vertical blanking) require protected mode drivers. Taking advantage of hardware-specific acceleration -- requires protected mode drivers. Q: How do you keep the footprint small? A1: You load only the drivers for the hardware you have. A2: You throw away the minimal drivers once they have been successfully replaced (kernel persistance zone based allocation/deallocation). A3: You throw away initialization code once it has been run (segment attribution of multiple segments in a single agregate image). A4: You throw away code that isn't being used (as long as it is not used to page in) until it is needed (deinitialization and instance creation/desctruction for referenced devices). This gives you a kernel that is smaller than the current monolithic kernel, since it only contains relevent drivers -- ever. If you aren't using a device, then it's not in your kernel; it may have been there an hour ago, and it may be back an hour from now. >From there, you move onto homogeneous dynamic linking technologies; this allows you to statically or dynamically link any driver of a given device support class. We are closing in on this one quickly, with better effect than Microsoft's "PELDR" VMM.VXD technology, by using constructors (linker sets) in order to build data objects which are identical in the static and dynamic linking cases. Some of the kernel changes in adding the SYSINIT() interface and init_main.c support are a definite move in this direction. This saves the world for the people who believe the sky is falling, and want to build their own custom kernels "for old times sake". > I tend to like an approach that involves: > > 1) a 1-page install document, the first sentence of which > directs the installer to a reference to be read and understood > if he doesn't understand the 1-page install document, I don't > mean just a Xerox(tm) copy of a directory listing with the > octal code for the bootstrap hand written on the side, but a > reasonable "Do this in this order" document, > 2) one diskette/tape/cd/papertape to get the system > in absolute minimum form to disk, doing what the > installer asks the installation to do, using command lines > if necessary, and restartable without having to go through > the whole thing from the beginning if a mistake is made, and, > 3) once the barebones system is on disk, configure and > load away, but don't do it from that annoyingly slow diskette. > That diskette, that, if I screw up because I'm a doofus, I may > have to recreate more than once. Some of these are release engineering issues; most, I would place in the category of hidden complexity -- you expose fractal order 1, but you hide fractal order 2, 3, etc.. Right now, fractal layer 2 is the exposed layer: this is why the current install system requires so many questions be answered to get a default install working. By far the biggest problem area is in device management. This devolves from the fact that the device management paradigm is hetrogeneous, when it should not be. The management interface for DOS partitioning (a technology for mapping logical devices to physical media) is different than the management interface for disklabel (another technology for mapping logical devices to physical media). The recent discussions on a management interface for user administraton -- are actually a perversion of work originally done for a device management interface. The front-end technology is scalable to problems other than this one, but that doesn't mean that it excludes this one. You could argue that this was, technically, an increase in absolute complexity; but since it orthoganizes the problem, it can actually be used as a basis for reducing the exposed fractal complexity. It is a step in the direction of the "one disk, minimal set of questions" install you are looking for. Before shouting "too many layers!", note that a logical layering does not require a corresponding physical instantiation to exist; the best example is the TCP/IP code, which is logically layered, yet is monolithic in implementation. A number of STREAMS-based TCP/IP implementations have moved in the directon of single layering to avoid the one machine cycle per getmsg/putmsg overhead that physically layering the logical layers implies. Third part users of the layers still pay a penalty for not being part of the monolith, but the integrated code is as efficient as if it were not logically layered, yet exports rational, orthoganl layering to consumers which need access at that level. > If used properly, vi is a reasonable configuration tool. Reasonable, yes, optimal, no. And I am probably one of the biggest "vi bigots" you will ever meet in your life. I ported "vi" to Harris VOS (a realtime FORTRAN/assembly machine), and my coding style is optimized for use of vi macros for functional cross-reference, etc. (and people wonder about my "space follows parenthesis" style... hah! these people obviously are not heavy users of '%' and tags-based regular experssions). The vi editor has a fractal complexity of 3, and a complexity of 4 when applied to system files, since the file format must have been internalized by the person doing the editing. > Yeah, I'm thinking about putting together an installation that does > this. Not too hard, but thinking about it. What stops me is that > I think that a plethora (check my spelling again) of intallations > a la Slackware, Red Hat, Debian, ..., probably do more harm than good. I've considered the same thing on more than one occassion; it's a cop-out soloution to the problem of acceptance -- and you should not do this unless acceptance proves to be an impossible goal. > I think the Free/Net/Open split was lamentable. FreeBSD and NetBSD did not split; they failed to merge. This is a subtle distinction (though still lamentable). The NetBSD/OpenBSD split was also lamntable, but both sides believed they had sufficient cause. You can't force volunteers to work together in an adverse working environment. Unlike employees, there is no "carrot and stick" which a central project manager can control. > This also means I'm not fond of "Now would be a great time to > register your product." in flashing boxes on the screen with images > of Lake Washington drifting ever-so-gently in the background, or > "Here's a hint since you didn't read the documentation." popping up > every few moments. I'd sometimes just like it to be KISS. I am torn here. They are a clever way of saying "I am doing something, and I am making progress, even if it isn't obvious to you". They are typically used for advertising. But I also know people who take giddy delight every time Microsoft Developer Studio starts up and asks them "Did you know that you can...", and tells them about some obscure feature of the produt it might have taken them months to discover on their own. > I watch DG and JD make a really slick VM, but I wonder if it's too > complicated to really rid of bugs, and I wonder if only 3 people > understanding it (and maybe not all of it at once) is good, and I > watch -stable sup have the install procedure updated every night, > and I wonder about less being better than more. I appreciate > (emphasize greatly appreciate) the work that those referenced > directly and indirectly above have done. I just wonder. I hope the > folks working on it are having fun, heaven knows they aren't paid > enough or given enough credit for their work. I think the VM is conceptually more complex, but implementationally less complex, than its predecesor. As far as bugs go, there are coding techniques and testing techniques (ie: branch path analysis) that can result in SQA with little extra effort. On the other hand, structure and order can make up for a lot of missing QA. I harp on single-entry/single-exit as one technique; others harp on using ANSI prototypes. It's possible to produce good code without either, but it ends up being a more difficult problem, and requires more rigor to get right. Structural "tools" can be just as important as source code control tools. The artist in each good engineer rebels against this, believing that rigor is necessary, that one must suffer for their art or the result is meaningless. > I had a 386bsd0.1.2 system up for 450 days running X. I'd'a kept it > but the new features so outweigh the old that I switched. I'm glad I > did, but I still wish for simplicity. In a structure, simplicity depends on the fractal level at which you view something. If the structure is itself layered, logically laid out, and designed, then you can look at a higher fractal geometry than if it were just mish-mashed together. You could take the aparment building analogy for this: It's possible to make every floor in the apartment building slightly different (no logical framework). And it's possible to go to a different contractor for each apartment (no logical layering). And it's possible to move items from the framework onto the apartment, like supporting walls (each FS must implement root mount capability, each FS must implement VOP_ADVLOCK vnode locking for vclean, each FS must implement calls back into the kern_lock.c for VOP_LOCK, etc.). Each time you do this, you decrease the fractal dimesion you must use in order to "get the big picture", and it's harder to appreciate the architecture for the electrical fires you are chasing down... it's harder to "get the big picture". Pining for the 386BSD days is a mistake. It *does* have to get more complicated to get simpler... it was not possible to simplify the 386BSD fdisk/disklabel process without imposing a complexity-increasing layer that abstracted the idea of logical-to-physical device mapping from the specific implementation. If a wall is out of plumb on any given floor in your building, it effects all other floors above it. > I'm going to go and take my medication now. 8-). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 14:16:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16850 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16841; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA01986; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:10:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607122110.OAA01986@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Preach it (was Some recent changes to GENERIC) To: phk@FreeBSD.ORG (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:10:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: pjchilds@imforei.apana.org.au, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3731.837161036@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jul 12, 96 10:43:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I agree, how about this for a revolution: > > I have this idea about putting tcl in the kernel. I can imagine some > rather interesting possibilities this would give us. > > Imagine all the "policies" we have, they could be boot-time configurable. > > When we run out of vm for instance, If we had tcl in the > kernel the sysad could do something like: > > proc out_of_vm {} { > foreach p in [procs] { > if {[proc argv0 $p] == "emacs"} { > proc kill -6 $p > } > } > } > > I'm almost kidding :-) I will support this, if the code is paged in for use, paged out when no longer in use, dynamically configurable into the machine without taking it down, and seperately installed. This means seperating rc into multiple files in a directory in order to enable "drop in" install, and/or kernel-initated module loading without the current relink interface (which I prototyped, so I know it is crud). I have no problem with "zero-overhead-unless-used" implementations of *anything*. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 15:28:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA23041 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com ([204.141.95.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA23032 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA14762; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:32:16 -0400 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:32:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199607122232.SAA14762@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Terry Lambert From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry articulates.... >> > > > I think we all ultimately want the all-singing, all-dancing loadable >> > > > kernel modules with PnP detection and auto config of devices while >> > > > simultaneously selecting proper drivers for compatible hardware while >> > > > working around all known incompatibilites. >> > > >> > > Not all of us do. At least one of us wants a really fast, really reliable >> > > system that makes extremely efficient use of its hardware environment. I >> > > suspect that that's not quite compatible with all-singing, all-dancing. >> > > Maybe, but I'm sceptical. >> ^ my spelling for one thing :-) >> >> > What in particular are you skeptical about? Maybe I can allay some >> > of your fears... >> >> >> I've never yet seen an operating system de-bloat. I've never yet seen more >> complicated more maintainable than less complicated. I've never yet seen >> "I'll have this examine the hardware and determine _exactly_ what it is >> and what the user _intends_ to be done with it" work correctly all the >> time. I keep waiting for DWIM, but I'm not holding my breath. > >I believe it is a technology issue related to fractal complexity >of software problem soloutions. > >To un-technobabble that, "it has to get harder before it can get easier". > >The absolute minimal interface for support of boot-critical devices >for everything but network interfaces is a BIOS interface. Network >interfaces can be handled as server (protected mode) ODI, or NDIS >(driver disks come with every interface card). CDROM can be handled >with MSCDEX (again, driver disks come with every interface card and/or >standard interface drive). [etc, etc.] at 7 bucks a meg...who cares? Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jul 12 19:51:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA02018 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexgen.ampr.org (max12-76.HiWAAY.net [206.104.16.76]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA02000; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by nexgen.ampr.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA07011; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:30:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.4-prerelease [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <31E564ED.5E13@oester.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:20:20 -0500 (CDT) Organization: Amateur Radio N4HHE, Madison, AL. From: David Kelly To: rich@oester.com Subject: RE: adaptec 154X support Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, questions@FreeBSD.org, "G.R.Gircys" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 18:32:45 "G.R.Gircys" wrote: >have a fine ole dx2/66 board with adaptec 1542B (older style with >jumpers) - worked flawlessly with bsdi for 2 years - now moving to >freebsd and find that during 2.1 install (usually while copying floppy >resident files) system either hangs or panics (virt screen 2 messages >about scsi bus locked). > >so i try a newer card - 1542 C/CF series - works great. > >does freebsd support the older adaptec 154X A/B? in my caseseems the >answer is no. Have you fiddled with bus timing on the Adaptec cards? Along the same lines I have a 486DX33 that has worked fairly well with SCSI for several years. Until the first of the year. It started trashing files that were not being written to. Tried BIOS settings. Tried the Adaptec 1542CF settings. Tried another 1542CF, disk drives, UltraStor 14F, even finally got desparate and tried MS-DOS. More or less the same with everything, while everyting worked on other systems. Decided the MB was broken. Pulled the SCSI card and its current uptime is about 75 days now. I hate PC's. Wish it would break good and proper so I could put it out of my misery. That box really nees a P166 in it, but then I might feel like the 640x480 256k VGA card would need to be replaced... :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@tomcat1.tbe.com, dkelly@hiwaay.net =============================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 00:34:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17353 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA17344 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id QAA28191; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:32:42 +0900 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:32:42 +0900 Message-Id: <199607130732.QAA28191@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: terry@lambert.org Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:40:01 -0700 (MST). <199607121840.LAA01785@phaeton.artisoft.com> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199607121840.LAA01785@phaeton.artisoft.com> terry@lambert.org writes: >> The following screens have not been translated: >> o hardware >> o quick install guide >> o copyright (probably does not need it or want it) >> o release notes These help files are now translating by the members of FreeBSD users' group in Japan. I think all of them are translated into Japanes in a few weeks. >> o sysinstall >> o HTML error dialog ("this option may only...") >> o Upgrade procedure Upgrade procuedure has been translated on current version. Some messages were not displayed on last version because of my mistake about coding system (ja_JP.ujis and ja_JP.jis), I fixed this problem. I wrote a webpage about this floppy. http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa/freebsd-jpinst/ Even If your web browser doesn's support Japanese text, you can 'see' the captured gif's of this floppy :-). -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 00:39:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17631 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA17620 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA23885; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:37:53 -0700 (PDT) To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:32:42 +0900." <199607130732.QAA28191@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:37:52 -0700 Message-ID: <23883.837243472@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > These help files are now translating by the members of FreeBSD users' > group in Japan. I think all of them are translated into Japanes in a > few weeks. > > >> o sysinstall > >> o HTML error dialog ("this option may only...") > >> o Upgrade procedure > > Upgrade procuedure has been translated on current version. Some > messages were not displayed on last version because of my mistake > about coding system (ja_JP.ujis and ja_JP.jis), I fixed this problem. OK, well, I've decided to put your current boot floppy on the 2.1.5R CD as "boot-jp.flp" in the floppies directory, where it's also mentioned by the README there. If you get an updated image to me by Sunday (my final "drop dead" date for the CD) then I'll replace it, otherwise I'll just go with what you sent me. We can then worry about 2.1.5J at some point later in the month. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 00:54:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA18862 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (ppp-5-14.rdcy01.pacbell.net [206.170.5.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA18856 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA00326 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607130753.AAA00326@precipice.shockwave.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: using ccd for striping? Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:53:29 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is anyone using the ccd driver in striping mode? I'd like to hear about other people's good/bad experiences before trying it out myself. Paul From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 01:51:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA23669 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 01:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA23661 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 01:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id aa05918; 13 Jul 96 9:51 +0100 Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa23127; 13 Jul 96 1:25 +0100 Received: (from fhackers@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA01784; Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:07:40 GMT Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:07:40 GMT Message-Id: <199607122107.VAA01784@jraynard.demon.co.uk> From: James Raynard To: pjchilds@imforei.apana.org.au CC: nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607120831.SAA01187@al.imforei.apana.org.au> (message from Peter Childs on Fri, 12 Jul 1996 18:01:23 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: summary of changes my changes in current recently Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > : Wonderful. How do I use it to talk with the Macs in the office, or is > : this another one of those 'enabling' technologies that's 90% of the way > : there. :) > > Its all getting there... CAP works ok at the moment via bpf's and you > can check out a "getting started" guide on CAP and FreeBSD (2.1+) > at > > http://www.imforei.apana.org.au/freebsd/freebsd+cap/ Someone in Japan sent me their notes on compiling CAP60 on FreeBSD. If anyone who has access to a Mac is interested in making a port out of them, please drop me a line! -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 04:57:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA07214 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 04:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from al.imforei.apana.org.au (al.imforei.apana.org.au [202.12.89.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07204 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 04:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pjchilds@localhost) by al.imforei.apana.org.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA03779; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:26:40 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:26:40 +0930 (CST) From: Peter Childs Message-Id: <199607131156.VAA03779@al.imforei.apana.org.au> To: pst@shockwave.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: using ccd for striping? X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199607130753.AAA00326@precipice.shockwave.com> you wrote: : Is anyone using the ccd driver in striping mode? I'd like to hear about : other people's good/bad experiences before trying it out myself. I have a couple of really old clunky 330mb SCSI drives, that can only push about 1mb sec reads, 0.8mb sec writes... put together and striped the ccd device does a good 1.6mb/s reads/1.4mb/s writes... (figures are done with iozone in non-optimal conditions...) I'd say that with a couple of decent newish drives you'd get quite good performance... i'm using my ccd device for a newspool and a web cache (so it doesn't matter if i loose it :) Peter -- Peter Childs --- http://www.imforei.apana.org.au/~pjchilds The internet is full, please try again in half an hour... From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 06:20:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA11290 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wong.rogerswave.ca (a17b32.rogerswave.ca [204.92.17.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA11275; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wong@localhost) by wong.rogerswave.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02667; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:17:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Wong To: Terry Lambert cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , pjchilds@imforei.apana.org.au, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Preach it (was Some recent changes to GENERIC) In-Reply-To: <199607122110.OAA01986@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has anybody checking out how QNX works? Its kernel is small and everything is "drop in". On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > rc into multiple files in a directory in order to enable "drop in" > install, and/or kernel-initated module loading without the current > relink interface (which I prototyped, so I know it is crud). > > I have no problem with "zero-overhead-unless-used" implementations of > *anything*. > > > Regards, > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 06:23:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA11775 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linus.demon.co.uk (linus.demon.co.uk [158.152.10.220]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA11745 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 06:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by linus.demon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10588 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:23:25 GMT Resent-Message-Id: <199607131423.OAA10588@linus.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: <199607131423.OAA10588@linus.demon.co.uk> Resent-From: mark@linus.demon.co.uk (Mark Valentine) Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:23:24 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) Resent-To: hackers@freebsd.org From: mark@linus.demon.co.uk (Mark Valentine) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 22:42:25 +0000 In-Reply-To: Bruce Evans's message of Jul 12, 4:46pm X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: Bruce Evans , pst@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.obj.mk Cc: hackers@freebad.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: Bruce Evans > Date: Fri 12 Jul, 1996 > Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.obj.mk [redirected from the CVS commit lists] > > Modified: share/mk bsd.obj.mk > > Log: > > Add whereobj target to find that pesky obj dir > > I still think that this is important enough to justify builtin support. > E.g., `make -P variable' could print make's idea of the value of `variable'. > Then `make -P .OBJDIR' would show where the obj dir is. Yes! I'd been puzzling over a way to do this which wasn't a special purpose hack. So, here's an implementation (the man page patch also includes a small bug fix for the description of the -D option). -P was (sort of) taken, so I used -V. (This patch is against -current's make; I actually compiled and lightly tested a variant of this - against a slightly older make [prior to jkh's changes].) Jordan's recent modifications to quite a few makefiles changed them from one bad assumption to another. This change allows a simpler fix than the one I saw in a random OpenBSD makefile, which generated a small makefile on the fly to echo ${.OBJDIR}. Such a fix would allow all those makefiles to work with both the old and new build systems. For example, for /usr/src/games/boggle/Makefile: MKDICTOBJ != cd ${.CURDIR}/mkdict; make -V .OBJDIR MKINDXOBJ != cd ${.CURDIR}/mkindex; make -V .OBJDIR MKDICT = ${MKDICTOBJ}/mkdict MKINDX = ${MKINDXOBJ}/mkindex The old version of the Makefile failed for most obj directory configurations; the -current version of the Makefile (and the new build system in general) only allows one (broken) way to do obj directories. Mark. --- make.1.ctm Thu Apr 11 22:02:30 1996 +++ make.1 Fri Jul 12 21:44:37 1996 @@ -47,6 +47,7 @@ .Bk -words .Op Fl j Ar max_jobs .Ek +.Op Fl V Ar variable .Op Ar variable=value .Op Ar target ... .Sh DESCRIPTION @@ -74,7 +75,8 @@ The options are as follows: .Bl -tag -width Ds .It Fl D Ar variable -Define Ar variable +Define +.Ar variable to be 1, in the global context. .It Fl d Ar flags Turn on debugging, and specify which portions of @@ -155,6 +157,16 @@ .It Fl t Rather than re-building a target as specified in the makefile, create it or update its modification time to make it appear up-to-date. +.It Fl V Ar variable +Print +.Nm make Ns 's +idea of the value of +.Ar variable , +in the global context. +Do not build any targets. +Multiple instances of this option may be specified; +the variables will be printed one per line, +with a blank line for each null or undefined variable. .It Ar variable=value Set the value of the variable .Ar variable --- main.c.ctm Wed Jul 10 01:12:08 1996 +++ main.c.new Fri Jul 12 21:22:53 1996 @@ -107,6 +107,8 @@ static Boolean noBuiltins; /* -r flag */ static Lst makefiles; /* ordered list of makefiles to read */ +static Boolean printVars; /* print value of one or more vars */ +static Lst variables; /* list of variables to print */ int maxJobs; /* -J argument */ static int maxLocal; /* -L argument */ Boolean compatMake; /* -B argument */ @@ -153,9 +155,9 @@ optind = 1; /* since we're called more than once */ #ifdef notyet -# define OPTFLAGS "BD:I:L:PSd:ef:ij:knqrst" +# define OPTFLAGS "BD:I:L:PSVd:ef:ij:knqrst" #else -# define OPTFLAGS "D:I:d:ef:ij:knqrst" +# define OPTFLAGS "DV:I:d:ef:ij:knqrst" #endif rearg: while((c = getopt(argc, argv, OPTFLAGS)) != EOF) { switch(c) { @@ -169,6 +171,12 @@ Var_Append(MAKEFLAGS, "-I", VAR_GLOBAL); Var_Append(MAKEFLAGS, optarg, VAR_GLOBAL); break; + case 'V': + printVars = TRUE; + (void)Lst_AtEnd(variables, (ClientData)optarg); + Var_Append(MAKEFLAGS, "-V", VAR_GLOBAL); + Var_Append(MAKEFLAGS, optarg, VAR_GLOBAL); + break; #ifdef notyet case 'B': compatMake = TRUE; @@ -453,6 +461,8 @@ create = Lst_Init(FALSE); makefiles = Lst_Init(FALSE); + printVars = FALSE; + variables = Lst_Init(FALSE); beSilent = FALSE; /* Print commands as executed */ ignoreErrors = FALSE; /* Pay attention to non-zero returns */ noExecute = FALSE; /* Execute all commands */ @@ -622,6 +632,20 @@ if (DEBUG(GRAPH1)) Targ_PrintGraph(1); + /* print the values of any variables requested by the user */ + if (printVars) { + LstNode ln; + + for (ln = Lst_First(variables); ln != NILLNODE; + ln = Lst_Succ(ln)) { + char *value = Var_Value((char *)Lst_Datum(ln), + VAR_GLOBAL, &p1); + printf("%s\n", value? value : ""); + if (p1) + free(p1); + } + } + /* * Have now read the entire graph and need to make a list of targets * to create. If none was given on the command line, we consult the @@ -636,7 +660,7 @@ * this was original amMake -- want to allow parallelism, so put this * back in, eventually. */ - if (!compatMake) { + if (!compatMake && !printVars) { /* * Initialize job module before traversing the graph, now that * any .BEGIN and .END targets have been read. This is done @@ -652,14 +676,16 @@ /* Traverse the graph, checking on all the targets */ outOfDate = Make_Run(targs); - } else + } else if (!printVars) { /* * Compat_Init will take care of creating all the targets as * well as initializing the module. */ Compat_Run(targs); + } Lst_Destroy(targs, NOFREE); + Lst_Destroy(variables, NOFREE); Lst_Destroy(makefiles, NOFREE); Lst_Destroy(create, (void (*) __P((ClientData))) free); -- Mark Valentine at Home From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 07:02:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA13970 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA13965 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uf5Gu-000QcJC; Sat, 13 Jul 96 16:02 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA11754 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:56:57 +0200 Message-Id: <199607131256.OAA11754@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:56:16 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jul 11, 96 08:15:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber writes: > > On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > >> My S.O. was getting lots of wrist pain too. She types only on these >> keyboards now also, and has a lot less problems with her wrists. > > My wife was getting wrist pains and I made the mistake of loaning > her my MS keyboard. I couldn't get it back for a month! It was > utter hell. > > Has anyone tried any of the MS keyboard inspired clones? Micro > Warehouse sells a "Tru-Form" keyboard made by Adesso that look > almost identical except it has a "eraser" mouse between the > keyboard halves. Its about half the price of the MS unit, but a > keyboard is not something I'll buy without trying out first. I > have not found any dealers with display. What programs do you use? I use emacs a lot, and having the ALT and CTRL keys in the wrong place always gave me wrist pains. I also use the F keys a lot, and having them in a row above the keyboard, where you have to go looking for them, is definitely not the way for a touch-typist. That's why I'm still holding on to my dying Northgate keyboards, which have the F keys on the left, where I can access them without looking. Why did they ever move them away to where you can't find them? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 07:12:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA14328 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA14322 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA05434; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607131409.HAA05434@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Peter Childs cc: pst@shockwave.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: using ccd for striping? In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 13 Jul 96 21:26:40 +0930. <199607131156.VAA03779@al.imforei.apana.org.au> Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:09:45 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >In article <199607130753.AAA00326@precipice.shockwave.com> you wrote: >: Is anyone using the ccd driver in striping mode? I'd like to hear about >: other people's good/bad experiences before trying it out myself. > I have a couple of really old clunky 330mb SCSI drives, that can only > push about 1mb sec reads, 0.8mb sec writes... put together and > striped the ccd device does a good 1.6mb/s reads/1.4mb/s writes... Does everyone have to post "does ccd work?" or "how fast is it?" every time they're interested in using ccd? FAQ: Yes, ccd works. Many people (myself included) use it daily for our main filesystem. If it didn't work, there would be a lot of very unhappy people. Yes, ccd will give you a moderate performance increase. No, it will not double your performance with two drives. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 07:24:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA14753 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.230.177]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA14748; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02731; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:23:43 +0200 (MET DST) To: Paul Traina cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: using ccd for striping? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:53:29 PDT." <199607130753.AAA00326@precipice.shockwave.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:23:43 +0200 Message-ID: <2729.837267823@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199607130753.AAA00326@precipice.shockwave.com>, Paul Traina writes: >Is anyone using the ccd driver in striping mode? I'd like to hear about >other people's good/bad experiences before trying it out myself. I'm using it, I have no bad experiences I can claim to know is because of striping. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 07:37:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA15468 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA15463 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA11093; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607131431.HAA11093@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Paul Traina Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: using ccd for striping? Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 07:31:48 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:53:29 -0700 Paul Traina wrote: > Is anyone using the ccd driver in striping mode? I'd like to hear about > other people's good/bad experiences before trying it out myself. Well, I stripe disks with it under NetBSD, and the FreeBSD and NetBSD versions of this aren't all that different ... mostly some altered glue. I've been relying on the ccd for, gosh, a little over a year now, and I've never had a problem with it losing any data. -- save the ancient forests - http://www.bayarea.net/~thorpej/forest/ -- Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 08:08:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19498 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ime.net ([204.97.248.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA19468; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 08:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kimiko.tcguy.net (buxton-8.ime.net [206.231.148.137]) by ime.net (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA28371; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <31E7BB9F.6CAB@ime.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:07:11 -0400 From: Gary Chrysler Reply-To: tcg@ime.net Organization: The Computer Guy X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly CC: rich@oester.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: adaptec 154X support References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Kelly wrote: > > On 18:32:45 "G.R.Gircys" wrote: > > >have a fine ole dx2/66 board with adaptec 1542B (older style with > >jumpers) - worked flawlessly with bsdi for 2 years - now moving to > >freebsd and find that during 2.1 install (usually while copying floppy > >resident files) system either hangs or panics (virt screen 2 messages > >about scsi bus locked). > > > >so i try a newer card - 1542 C/CF series - works great. > > > >does freebsd support the older adaptec 154X A/B? in my caseseems the > >answer is no. > > Have you fiddled with bus timing on the Adaptec cards? > > Along the same lines I have a 486DX33 that has worked fairly well with > SCSI for several years. Until the first of the year. It started trashing > files that were not being written to. Tried BIOS settings. Tried the > Adaptec 1542CF settings. Tried another 1542CF, disk drives, UltraStor > 14F, even finally got desparate and tried MS-DOS. More or less the same > with everything, while everyting worked on other systems. > > Decided the MB was broken. Pulled the SCSI card and its current uptime > is about 75 days now. I hate PC's. Wish it would break good and proper > so I could put it out of my misery. That box really nees a P166 in it, > but then I might feel like the 640x480 256k VGA card would need to be > replaced... :-) > I don't know if this has anything to do with your alls troubles but maybe it'll be good info for somebody. I have several Adaptec 1542CF's, For each and every one of them I have had troubles with external drives. Never used one with internal drives, So don't know about that. The solution, Call Adaptec techsup they'll send ya a special external cable and the troubles dissapear! For FREE at that! I don't pretend to understand the internals of SCSI cabling, So I have no idea whats special about the cable, Just that it has solved my problem each time! I *belive* it has something to do with a tolarance range of something in the SCSI cable spec, It's -xx to +xx and the 1542 falls out of this range.. ?? Not really sure though. They did explain it to me ~4 years ago. I'm sure if those fried brain cells got tickled enough I would remember. When I bought my last 1542CF (less then a year ago) I did call and recieved yet another free cable. I wouldn't mind knowing/remembering. I'll posts whatever is written on the cables if anyone wants it. I more then likly have the paper work from them as well. My experances with this problem have _NOT_ been in FreeBSD, But other OS's/NOS's. MS-Dog and Netware to be exact! I do have a 1542CF in my FreeBSD 2.1r box running a 3501B SCSI CD and it works flawlessly. No SCSI HD's though.. (Yet) -Enjoy Gary ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Improve America's Knowledge... Share yours The Borg... Where minds meet (207) 929-3848 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 09:03:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA05711 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com ([204.141.95.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA05701 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 09:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA16924; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:07:37 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:07:37 -0400 Message-Id: <199607131607.MAA16924@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Terry Lambert From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> [etc, etc.] >> >> at 7 bucks a meg...who cares? > >People who distribute boot floppies? This is silly. There's no reason to put a kitchen-sink kernel on a boot floppy. Having a couple of different boot floppy kernels is easy. The "generic kernel" issue is one of compatibility, content and size. > >No, wait... > >People who want to sell their sync serial cards which require >proprietary drivers into the "I couln't build a kernel to save >my life" market. Hardly. Anyone who thinks that someone is going to be compelled to use unix simply because he doesnt have to build a kernel has his head, neck and shoulders buried in the sand. Based on our experience with LINUX loadable modules, building a FreeBSD kernel is a lot easier and requires less support than loadable modules. Unless you implement a perfectly seemless loadable module interface, they are arguably more difficult and more problematic than static kernel modules. My message was in response to your goals, which seemed to be mostly addressing the memory footprint (ie, discarding initialization code, etc). Dennis ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD and LINUX From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 10:52:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA29977 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de (axp5.fddi5B.fu-berlin.de [160.45.5.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA29966 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 10:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from titania.physik.fu-berlin.de (titania.physik.fu-berlin.de [160.45.33.86]) by axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA00506; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:52:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from graichen@localhost) by mordillo (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA01130; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 17:03:24 +0200 From: Thomas Graichen Message-Id: <199607131503.RAA01130@mordillo> Subject: Re: sio / modem problems To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 17:03:24 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607112254.IAA18667@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jul 12, 96 08:54:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hasn't Bruce Evans said ? ... > > >> i have an internal creatix phone-master modem - which will be detected in > >> FreeBSD 2.0.5 but not in the 2.1.0 RELEASE or the march 2.2 snap - it's > > The probe didn't change (not even one byte of the source) between 2.0.5R > and 2.1.0R. > > Revision 1.135 on 25 Feb introduced some delays in the probe in the hope > of fixing this problem. These should be in the March 2.2 snap. > > These changes are missing from -stable :-(. (Or `:-)' if they actually > make things worse :-). > > The probe hasn't changed significantly in -current since rev.1.135. > > >I recently fixed a modem detection problem from someone by inserting > >"DELAY(1000);"'s in sioprobe() everywhere the /* EXTRA DELAY? */ comment > >appeared. It's a hack, but clearly some portion of that code is running > > The delays in rev.1.135 are in slightly different places. They are > probably necessary if the UART is actually a bunch of i/o ports under > software control. The software can reasonably take a long time to > complete a sequence of events that it initiates. OTOH, for events > initiated by the host cpu, such as writes to control registers, the > UART needs to respond withing a few hundred nsec to preserve 16550 > compatibility. Otherwise back to back writes to a control register > might lose the intermediate steps... I added delays in exactly the > cases where it seems reasonable for the UART to be slow. > but they are not enough :-) - but i solved it (half) - i disabled the "fast AT cycle option" and now it is detected fine - i found that out after playing around a bit with the 2.0.5 kernel (the generic detected it but a smaller kernel built for my system not - 2.0.5 too - this way i found out that it is some kind of timing problem - it is detected by all kernels if i turned off the turbo switch of the computer - this way i came to the bios setting) now the question is - can it be solved by software (some more delays) because linux detects it fine ? t p.s.: thanks to all the people who replied to my question -- thomas graichen graichen@mail.physik.fu-berlin.de graichen@FreeBSD.org perfection is reached, not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away antoine de saint-exupery From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 11:44:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03674 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA03669 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id UAA06620 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:44:39 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA15363 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:44:39 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id UAA01465 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:40:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199607131840.UAA01465@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: adaptec 154X support To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:40:33 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <31E7BB9F.6CAB@ime.net> from Gary Chrysler at "Jul 13, 96 11:07:11 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Gary Chrysler wrote: > I have several Adaptec 1542CF's, For each and every one of them I > have had troubles with external drives. Never used one with > internal drives, So don't know about that. > The solution, Call Adaptec techsup they'll send ya a special > external cable and the troubles dissapear! > For FREE at that! That's sorta ``common wisdom''. I remember this discussion (also here in the computer magazines) when the 154xC appeared. They've got some timing much more aggressive than they used to have. Alas, there are so many crappy (and often too cheap) SCSI cables around. I normally don't trust a SCSI cable of less than USD 50 or so... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 12:29:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05927 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA05919 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 12:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id OAA00314; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:27:54 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607131927.OAA00314@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: using ccd for striping? To: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:27:54 -0500 (CDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607130753.AAA00326@precipice.shockwave.com> from "Paul Traina" at Jul 13, 96 00:53:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is anyone using the ccd driver in striping mode? I'd like to hear about > other people's good/bad experiences before trying it out myself. I've seen it act a little funny with way large stripe sizes (65536), several different times I have seen it develop "non-writable" and "non-accessible" zones near the very end of the disk. I haven't had the time to explore why this is, but have instead worked around it by leaving the last 10% of the metadisks in question unpartitioned. Other than that: you gotta love ccd :-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 13:59:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11852 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from csgrad.cs.vt.edu (csgrad.cs.vt.edu [128.173.41.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA11846 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by csgrad.cs.vt.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/19Sep94-1023AM) id AA11320; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:59:05 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:59:05 -0400 From: Tommy Johnson Message-Id: <9607132059.AA11320@csgrad.cs.vt.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: DEC DC21041 unhappy with FreeBSD-current Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm attempting to run: FreeBSD 2.2-current as of 1996.7.12 It refuses to use the BNC port on a SMC Etherpower PCI with 10baseT and 10base2 (no AUI). I selected BNC in the setup program. My motherboard is a Tyan S1462 dual 586 PCI/EISA (Neptune chipset), with a pair of 586-100s, 16MB ram, the ethernet board, adaptec 2940, GUS sound board, generic ISA IO board, and a hercules video board. Boot DOS, run setup program, select BNC, soft reboot to freebsd: Hangs just after "entry point=0x100000" Boot FreeBSD, ifconfig de0 138.129.225.22 ping fails. ifconfig de0 link2 ping fails ifconfig de0 down says "de0: enabling AUI port" ping fails ifconfig de0 138.129.225.22 link2 ping fails You say link2 to force 10baseT, according to message 199606130239.TAA23149@GndRsh.aac.dev.com on freebsd-hackers (altphys?). How do you force 10base2? Thanks in advance! -Tom "this isn't happening... this isn't happening..." a grey alien, X Files tjohnson@csgrad.cs.vt.edu "My other computer ALSO runs unix." -me <*> http://csgrad.cs.vt.edu/~tjohnson/ Message and signature (c) 1996 Tommy O. Johnson, all rights reserved From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 14:00:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12018 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12013 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06514; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607132058.NAA06514@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Joe Greco cc: pst@shockwave.com (Paul Traina), hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: using ccd for striping? In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 13 Jul 96 14:27:54 -0500. <199607131927.OAA00314@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 13:58:43 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Is anyone using the ccd driver in striping mode? I'd like to hear about >> other people's good/bad experiences before trying it out myself. > >I've seen it act a little funny with way large stripe sizes (65536), several >different times I have seen it develop "non-writable" and "non-accessible" >zones near the very end of the disk. I presume you're talking about the interleave factor? Since you say large, and 65536, I assume you're saying 64MB stripes? (64K disk blocks, 32K bytes, wouldn't be "large".) Is there a good reason for doing that? I would think you'd get a much better performance boost by going with interleaved stripes somewhere between the size of a filesystem cluster to a unit the size of the smallest drive's cache. (When I say "cluster", I am referring to the size of a filesystem block -- 8 fragments -- not a disk block -- 512 bytes.) I have been going with a 128 block (64K) interleave, since that's half the size of my drives' caches, and is the size of four filesystem clusters (whichh I have allocated as 16K). Any bigger than that and you lose all the benefits of interleaved access. In fact, I have considered reducing it to 16K so it would interleave on single-cluster sizes. On the other hand, if you get too fine of an interleave, you can get inefficient since the ccd driver will be doing a lot of work reading in lots of small pieces and assembling them. Still, I can't think of any reason you'd ever want 64MB interleaved stripes. I don't see any benefit in such an arrangement. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 14:10:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12989 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12976 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 14:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id QAA00481; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:08:45 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199607132108.QAA00481@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: using ccd for striping? To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:08:45 -0500 (CDT) Cc: pst@shockwave.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607132058.NAA06514@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 13, 96 01:58:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > >> Is anyone using the ccd driver in striping mode? I'd like to hear about > >> other people's good/bad experiences before trying it out myself. > > > >I've seen it act a little funny with way large stripe sizes (65536), several > >different times I have seen it develop "non-writable" and "non-accessible" > >zones near the very end of the disk. > > I presume you're talking about the interleave factor? Since you say > large, and 65536, I assume you're saying 64MB stripes? (64K disk > blocks, 32K bytes, wouldn't be "large".) > > Is there a good reason for doing that? I would think you'd get a much > better performance boost by going with interleaved stripes somewhere > between the size of a filesystem cluster to a unit the size of the > smallest drive's cache. (When I say "cluster", I am referring to the > size of a filesystem block -- 8 fragments -- not a disk block -- 512 > bytes.) [...] > Still, I can't think of any reason you'd ever want 64MB interleaved > stripes. I don't see any benefit in such an arrangement. Think about the case where you are not optimizing for bandwidth, but for transactions per second. Think "news spool" :-) Now think about the size of a cylinder group. ;-) Not all problems get solved the same way. I'd rather have a disk with no improvement in bandwidth but a definite improvement in terms of how fast an average random access is. If you have two heads, and 'zones' on the disk.. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 15:16:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA22166 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA22156 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 15:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA03154; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:11:46 +1000 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:11:46 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607132211.IAA03154@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, graichen@axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de Subject: Re: sio / modem problems Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, v@godzilla.zeta.org.au Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> might lose the intermediate steps... I added delays in exactly the >> cases where it seems reasonable for the UART to be slow. >> >but they are not enough :-) - but i solved it (half) - i disabled the "fast AT >cycle option" and now it is detected fine - i found that out after playing If the bus speed is out of spec then it's not surprising that some hardware fails. It's surprising that it only fails in the probe, however. The probe is mostly less demanding than the main code. BTW, there is a problem in the main code for some buggy (Startech?) 16550 UARTs. These UARTs report that there is data ready slightly before the data is ready. This causes doubled characters in the input. Delaying 1us at the critical point would reduce efficiency of the interrupt handler by 33%. >around a bit with the 2.0.5 kernel (the generic detected it but a smaller >kernel built for my system not - 2.0.5 too - this way i found out that it is >some kind of timing problem - it is detected by all kernels if i turned off >the turbo switch of the computer - this way i came to the bios setting) >now the question is - can it be solved by software (some more delays) >because linux detects it fine ? Only if the problem is understood. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 16:46:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02881 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02870 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id QAA21532; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma021530; Sat Jul 13 16:45:06 1996 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00884; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:45:02 -0700 From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199607132345.QAA00884@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: interfaces, routes, etc. To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:45:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm finding some weird behavior in -current with regards to interface numbering, aliases, automatically generated routes, ARP entries, etc. One specific example... - When you bring an EtherNet interface up and ping some addresses on that network, you get automatically generated LINK layer routes (ie, arp entries). However, when you bring the interface down these routes do not automatically go away. [ I thought there was discussion about this before and agreement that "automatically generated routes should be automatically removed, and static routes should always be left alone." If so, I'd be happy to produce a patch for review. ] One very weird but non-reproducible case involved an ethernet interface that had been renumbered several times on the same class c network. It got into a situation where "ifconfig" clearly showed the address as a single number (and netstat showed sane settings as well), but pinging *certain* addresses on the ethernet would cause transmitted packets to have the old source ip address. In general, old alias addresses sometimes seem to "haunt" an interface long after they have been deleted. Another question: - Exactly what is the netmask, as configured on a point-to-point interface, used for? If anything, which address does it apply to, the local or the remote one? In FreeBSD: - The local and remote addresses do not need be part of the same network - The local address can be 0.0.0.0, but not the remote address - It is possible to set aliases address pairs on a point-to-point link which share the same destination, but not the same source I assume this is to be as flexible as possible for people trying to do funny things like half routing, etc. However, I don't understand the third one above; you should be able to have address pairs with the same source and different destination addresses; this would apply nicely to NBMA (non-broadcast multiple access) networks such as frame relay. My suggestions... - Automatically generated link layer routes get removed when an interface is brought down. - Allow NMBA type addressing on point-to-point links like this: tun1: flags=8051 mtu 1500 inet 1.1.1.1 --> 2.2.2.2 netmask 0xff000000 inet 1.1.1.1 --> 3.3.3.3 netmask 0xff000000 inet 1.1.1.1 --> 4.4.4.4 netmask 0xff000000 - Declare that any interface which has the POINTOPOINT but not the BROADCAST flag set, and which allows multiple (alias) address pairs, is by definition a NBMA network. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie L. Cobbs, archie@whistle.com * Whistle Communications Corporation From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 19:42:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA25403 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.lenzi ([200.247.23.196]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25367 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lenzi@localhost) by home.lenzi (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01583; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:18:10 GMT Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:18:09 +0000 () From: "Lenzi, Sergio" X-Sender: lenzi@home cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > All of the places that I went to trying to find a keyboard only had those > freakin' loose'95 stickers on it, so i bought the el'cheapo model and > took my exacto knife to those little emblams and scratched the little > buggers of and wrote in big black letter (permant pen mind you) at the > top of the keyboard, > "NOT MICROSOFT COMPATABLE!" > I AGREE Eric. I Like Microsoft so much, that every time I shut an NT down to substitute it with a FreeBSD box, I send the NT serial number back to microsoft.com.... I personaly have substitued 7 in the last 3 months. It happens this way: The client first buys NT to make an internet provider or an intranet solution. Whithout support from the M$ reseller, that does not understand internet, dns, gated, proxys, irc, http, php, postgres, "c", perl, shell, telnet, rlogin, rsh, ftpd, tcp administrative tools, the client feels lost. So I go the the client, presents it with FreeBSD as a intranet server, substitute the NT, links the FreeBSD box to the internet with an inexpensive hardware to and ISP, and... now we have an happy client. Here In Brazil, they (microsoft) elect some of their resselers a "Solution provider". We call them "Problem provider" mainly for the poor tech assistant their offer for their clients. One of my friends, that sells SCO and M$, (now works with FreeBSD) is very impressed with the quality of the OS and the support he got from the FreeBSD people. He got most the answer he needs in a 3 hour elapse time. Even a friend of mine that's a Linux Fan is now working with FreeBSD after 3 of their clients switch to FreeBSD as servers. Lenzi. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 19:44:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA25647 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.lenzi ([200.247.23.196]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25576 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 19:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lenzi@localhost) by home.lenzi (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01212; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:45:28 GMT Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:45:28 +0000 () From: "Lenzi, Sergio" X-Sender: lenzi@home To: "Sexton, Robert" cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) In-Reply-To: <7366895B0187397C@mg01a.mhs.squared.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Sexton, Robert wrote: > > Is it possible for us to get away from the use of compilers in kernel > config? I come from the SCO world, and we have a nice mechanism for > adding and removing devices without recompiling the kernel. It does have > to be relinked, but that's a much smaller job. Hello Robert, I have been using sysV kernels for a long time too. Now I am an BSD converted. The problem for kernel build time (30 minutes) or so seems to be too long compared with of a SysV rel 3.2. Now I use to do this way: 1) define the machine, configure it with the config program. 2) do a make depend all install. (this takes 30-45 minutes). but only once. 3) In another need for reconfigure, (adding or removing devices...) I only do a config -n xxx. This does not removes the yet compiled modules, and links a new kernel without recompiling from scratch. Sometimes, when removind controllers or devices from a controller, the link stage complains about the controller type. All I do is remove the xxx.o that references the removed module and make all again. This time it recompiles xxx from the sources and the whole thing works. Same thing happens when installing firewall or multi-serial boards, in the firewall example, I remove all the ip*.o modules. In the serial boards I remove the serial.o or cy.o modules. The make then recompiles the modules from the sources, and the system builds a new kernel in 2-5 minutes. I think there is a great future in this BSD system for its speed, robust, support for software (in this list) and the exelent quality of the software. Hope this will help. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 20:18:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29464 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA29425 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA11262; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:08:48 +1000 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:08:48 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607140308.NAA11262@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, mark@linus.demon.co.uk, pst@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.obj.mk Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > Modified: share/mk bsd.obj.mk >> > Log: >> > Add whereobj target to find that pesky obj dir BTW, this doesn't actually work. There are a couple of errors in the sh command. >> I still think that this is important enough to justify builtin support. >> E.g., `make -P variable' could print make's idea of the value of `variable'. >> Then `make -P .OBJDIR' would show where the obj dir is. >Yes! I'd been puzzling over a way to do this which wasn't a special purpose >hack. So, here's an implementation (the man page patch also includes a small >bug fix for the description of the -D option). -P was (sort of) taken, so I >used -V. >(This patch is against -current's make; I actually compiled and lightly tested >a variant of this - against a slightly older make [prior to jkh's changes].) Thanks for the implementation. I can hardly object to it :-). I will commit it in a day or two if there are no problems. Here are some fixes for new and old bugs in the options processing and synopsis printing (and one hunk of whitespace changes). The missing colon on D: is most important. === *** make.1~~ Sun Jul 14 11:44:30 1996 --- make.1 Sun Jul 14 12:07:47 1996 *************** *** 40,44 **** .Sh SYNOPSIS .Nm make ! .Op Fl eiknqrstv .Op Fl D Ar variable .Op Fl d Ar flags --- 40,44 ---- .Sh SYNOPSIS .Nm make ! .Op Fl eiknqrst .Op Fl D Ar variable .Op Fl d Ar flags *** main.c~~ Sun Jul 14 11:44:30 1996 --- main.c Sun Jul 14 12:12:02 1996 *************** *** 158,162 **** # define OPTFLAGS "BD:I:L:PSVd:ef:ij:knqrst" #else ! # define OPTFLAGS "DV:I:d:ef:ij:knqrst" #endif rearg: while((c = getopt(argc, argv, OPTFLAGS)) != EOF) { --- 158,162 ---- # define OPTFLAGS "BD:I:L:PSVd:ef:ij:knqrst" #else ! # define OPTFLAGS "D:I:V:d:ef:ij:knqrst" #endif rearg: while((c = getopt(argc, argv, OPTFLAGS)) != EOF) { *************** *** 640,645 **** ln = Lst_Succ(ln)) { char *value = Var_Value((char *)Lst_Datum(ln), ! VAR_GLOBAL, &p1); ! printf("%s\n", value? value : ""); if (p1) free(p1); --- 640,646 ---- ln = Lst_Succ(ln)) { char *value = Var_Value((char *)Lst_Datum(ln), ! VAR_GLOBAL, &p1); ! ! printf("%s\n", value ? value : ""); if (p1) free(p1); *************** *** 946,951 **** { (void)fprintf(stderr, ! "usage: make [-eiknqrst] [-D variable] [-d flags] [-f makefile ]\n\ ! [-I directory] [-j max_jobs] [variable=value]\n"); exit(2); } --- 947,952 ---- { (void)fprintf(stderr, ! "usage: make [-eiknqrst] [-D variable] [-d flags] [-f makefile] [-I directory]\n\ ! [-j max_jobs] [-V variable] [variable=value] [target ...]\n"); exit(2); } === >For example, for /usr/src/games/boggle/Makefile: > MKDICTOBJ != cd ${.CURDIR}/mkdict; make -V .OBJDIR > MKINDXOBJ != cd ${.CURDIR}/mkindex; make -V .OBJDIR > MKDICT = ${MKDICTOBJ}/mkdict > MKINDX = ${MKINDXOBJ}/mkindex >The old version of the Makefile failed for most obj directory configurations; >the -current version of the Makefile (and the new build system in general) only >allows one (broken) way to do obj directories. I think the old way worked provided the source directories contained the correct obj links. I think the above method is too slow except in special cases. It is probably most useful for nightmare cases like tn3270. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 20:19:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29573 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA29511 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA11238; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:07:50 +1000 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:07:50 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607140307.NAA11238@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, mark@linus.demon.co.uk, pst@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.obj.mk Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [redirected again from hackers@freebad.org :-)] > From: Bruce Evans > Date: Fri 12 Jul, 1996 > Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.obj.mk [redirected from the CVS commit lists] > > Modified: share/mk bsd.obj.mk > > Log: > > Add whereobj target to find that pesky obj dir > > I still think that this is important enough to justify builtin support. > E.g., `make -P variable' could print make's idea of the value of `variable'. > Then `make -P .OBJDIR' would show where the obj dir is. Yes! I'd been puzzling over a way to do this which wasn't a special purpose hack. So, here's an implementation (the man page patch also includes a small bug fix for the description of the -D option). -P was (sort of) taken, so I used -V. (This patch is against -current's make; I actually compiled and lightly tested a variant of this - against a slightly older make [prior to jkh's changes].) Jordan's recent modifications to quite a few makefiles changed them from one bad assumption to another. This change allows a simpler fix than the one I saw in a random OpenBSD makefile, which generated a small makefile on the fly to echo ${.OBJDIR}. Such a fix would allow all those makefiles to work with both the old and new build systems. For example, for /usr/src/games/boggle/Makefile: MKDICTOBJ != cd ${.CURDIR}/mkdict; make -V .OBJDIR MKINDXOBJ != cd ${.CURDIR}/mkindex; make -V .OBJDIR MKDICT = ${MKDICTOBJ}/mkdict MKINDX = ${MKINDXOBJ}/mkindex The old version of the Makefile failed for most obj directory configurations; the -current version of the Makefile (and the new build system in general) only allows one (broken) way to do obj directories. Mark. --- make.1.ctm Thu Apr 11 22:02:30 1996 +++ make.1 Fri Jul 12 21:44:37 1996 @@ -47,6 +47,7 @@ .Bk -words .Op Fl j Ar max_jobs .Ek +.Op Fl V Ar variable .Op Ar variable=value .Op Ar target ... .Sh DESCRIPTION @@ -74,7 +75,8 @@ The options are as follows: .Bl -tag -width Ds .It Fl D Ar variable -Define Ar variable +Define +.Ar variable to be 1, in the global context. .It Fl d Ar flags Turn on debugging, and specify which portions of @@ -155,6 +157,16 @@ .It Fl t Rather than re-building a target as specified in the makefile, create it or update its modification time to make it appear up-to-date. +.It Fl V Ar variable +Print +.Nm make Ns 's +idea of the value of +.Ar variable , +in the global context. +Do not build any targets. +Multiple instances of this option may be specified; +the variables will be printed one per line, +with a blank line for each null or undefined variable. .It Ar variable=value Set the value of the variable .Ar variable --- main.c.ctm Wed Jul 10 01:12:08 1996 +++ main.c.new Fri Jul 12 21:22:53 1996 @@ -107,6 +107,8 @@ static Boolean noBuiltins; /* -r flag */ static Lst makefiles; /* ordered list of makefiles to read */ +static Boolean printVars; /* print value of one or more vars */ +static Lst variables; /* list of variables to print */ int maxJobs; /* -J argument */ static int maxLocal; /* -L argument */ Boolean compatMake; /* -B argument */ @@ -153,9 +155,9 @@ optind = 1; /* since we're called more than once */ #ifdef notyet -# define OPTFLAGS "BD:I:L:PSd:ef:ij:knqrst" +# define OPTFLAGS "BD:I:L:PSVd:ef:ij:knqrst" #else -# define OPTFLAGS "D:I:d:ef:ij:knqrst" +# define OPTFLAGS "DV:I:d:ef:ij:knqrst" #endif rearg: while((c = getopt(argc, argv, OPTFLAGS)) != EOF) { switch(c) { @@ -169,6 +171,12 @@ Var_Append(MAKEFLAGS, "-I", VAR_GLOBAL); Var_Append(MAKEFLAGS, optarg, VAR_GLOBAL); break; + case 'V': + printVars = TRUE; + (void)Lst_AtEnd(variables, (ClientData)optarg); + Var_Append(MAKEFLAGS, "-V", VAR_GLOBAL); + Var_Append(MAKEFLAGS, optarg, VAR_GLOBAL); + break; #ifdef notyet case 'B': compatMake = TRUE; @@ -453,6 +461,8 @@ create = Lst_Init(FALSE); makefiles = Lst_Init(FALSE); + printVars = FALSE; + variables = Lst_Init(FALSE); beSilent = FALSE; /* Print commands as executed */ ignoreErrors = FALSE; /* Pay attention to non-zero returns */ noExecute = FALSE; /* Execute all commands */ @@ -622,6 +632,20 @@ if (DEBUG(GRAPH1)) Targ_PrintGraph(1); + /* print the values of any variables requested by the user */ + if (printVars) { + LstNode ln; + + for (ln = Lst_First(variables); ln != NILLNODE; + ln = Lst_Succ(ln)) { + char *value = Var_Value((char *)Lst_Datum(ln), + VAR_GLOBAL, &p1); + printf("%s\n", value? value : ""); + if (p1) + free(p1); + } + } + /* * Have now read the entire graph and need to make a list of targets * to create. If none was given on the command line, we consult the @@ -636,7 +660,7 @@ * this was original amMake -- want to allow parallelism, so put this * back in, eventually. */ - if (!compatMake) { + if (!compatMake && !printVars) { /* * Initialize job module before traversing the graph, now that * any .BEGIN and .END targets have been read. This is done @@ -652,14 +676,16 @@ /* Traverse the graph, checking on all the targets */ outOfDate = Make_Run(targs); - } else + } else if (!printVars) { /* * Compat_Init will take care of creating all the targets as * well as initializing the module. */ Compat_Run(targs); + } Lst_Destroy(targs, NOFREE); + Lst_Destroy(variables, NOFREE); Lst_Destroy(makefiles, NOFREE); Lst_Destroy(create, (void (*) __P((ClientData))) free); -- Mark Valentine at Home From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 20:21:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29870 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA29859 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA00618; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607140320.UAA00618@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Lenzi, Sergio" cc: "Sexton, Robert" , freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:45:28 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:20:51 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Lenzi, Sergio" : > On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Sexton, Robert wrote: > > Hello Robert, > I have been using sysV kernels for a long time too. Now I am an BSD > converted. The problem for kernel build time (30 minutes) or so seems to > be too long compared with of a SysV rel 3.2. The issue of 30minutes for a kernel compile has got to be due to gcc . Not sure what changed between gcc-1.42 and and gcc-2.x however simple minded experiments have shown that gcc-2.x takes about 3 times longer to compile. The other major factor is the cpu/disk/controller and if you have a minimally configured system, memory is important. It takes about 8 minutes to compile a kernel over here on my P100 with 32MB and fast disks. It would probably take less than 3 minutes to compile with the old gcc-1.42 . I would be nice if someone with access to gcc-2.x and gcc-1.42 to do a performance analysis ... As for the issue of a user friendly front-end to configure a kernel , I think that we have enough tools to do a decent job is just a matter of someone with enough drive to sit down and do it. Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 20:20:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA29715 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA29706 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA05909; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:13:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607140313.UAA05909@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) To: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:13:39 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607131607.MAA16924@etinc.com> from "Dennis" at Jul 13, 96 12:07:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> [etc, etc.] > >> > >> at 7 bucks a meg...who cares? > > > >People who distribute boot floppies? > > This is silly. There's no reason to put a kitchen-sink kernel on > a boot floppy. Having a couple of different boot floppy kernels is > easy. The "generic kernel" issue is one of compatibility, content > and size. It's an issue of "what hoops must I jump through to run FreeBSD". It's *not* a content issue, unless content must be static. If content must be static, I claim the design to be flawed, since this is how I defined it. If you dislike my definition, provide a better one; your dislike have been noted, but is not persuasive in any way without an alternate definition having been provided. > >People who want to sell their sync serial cards which require > >proprietary drivers into the "I couln't build a kernel to save > >my life" market. > > Hardly. Anyone who thinks that someone is going to be compelled to > use unix simply because he doesnt have to build a kernel has his > head, neck and shoulders buried in the sand. I do *not* believe they will be compelled to use UNIX. On the contrary, I believe they will be compelled by usability issues to use NT or some other OS other than UNIX. I dislike this idea, however, I have seen much in the way of supporting evidence, and nothing to the contrary from the heated opposition to the idea. > Based on our experience with LINUX loadable modules, building a > FreeBSD kernel is a lot easier and requires less support than loadable > modules. Unless you implement a perfectly seemless loadable module > interface, they are arguably more difficult and more problematic than > static kernel modules. This is *precisely* the model I keep proposing. It is *precisely* the model Windows NT uses, and Windows NT has a provably superior dynamic linking technology on which they implement their model. > My message was in response to your goals, which seemed to be mostly > addressing the memory footprint (ie, discarding initialization code, etc). My goals are to have the bare minimum necessary kernel, no less. And no more. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 20:40:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA02117 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA02098 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 20:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id MAA05068; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:39:49 +0900 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 12:39:49 +0900 Message-Id: <199607140339.MAA05068@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: To Asian FreeBSD hackers: Japanese boot.flp is now available! In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 13 Jul 1996 00:37:52 -0700. <23883.837243472@time.cdrom.com> From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.18PL3] 1994-08/01(Mon) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <23883.837243472@time.cdrom.com> jkh@time.throck.com writes: >> > These help files are now translating by the members of FreeBSD users' >> OK, well, I've decided to put your current boot floppy on the 2.1.5R >> CD as "boot-jp.flp" in the floppies directory, where it's also >> mentioned by the README there. If you get an updated image to me by >> Sunday (my final "drop dead" date for the CD) then I'll replace it, >> otherwise I'll just go with what you sent me. We can then worry >> about 2.1.5J at some point later in the month. :-) I put the newest version at ftp://ryukyu.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/pub/alpha-test/jboot/boot.flp I think this one is far better than the last one. I'll put the source later, and I'll write about what was changed since last version. -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi E-mail: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp WWW homepage: http://www.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp/person/hosokawa.html Department of Computer Science, Keio University, Yokohama, Japan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 21:49:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA07616 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from walkabout.asstdc.com.au (root@walkabout.asstdc.com.au [202.12.127.73]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA07608 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 21:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by walkabout.asstdc.com.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id OAA00418 Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:49:39 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199607140449.OAA00418@walkabout.asstdc.com.au> Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:49:39 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607140320.UAA00618@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jul 13, 96 08:20:51 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The issue of 30minutes for a kernel compile has got to be due > to gcc . Not sure what changed between gcc-1.42 and and gcc-2.x however > simple minded experiments have shown that gcc-2.x takes about 3 times > longer to compile. I feel that one-time compilation overheads are the last on the list of priorities when you want a kernel that performs reasonably well. If you want faster compilation, simply remove the "-O". You can have it one way or the other; both is not (currently) an option. > The other major factor is the cpu/disk/controller and > if you have a minimally configured system, memory is important. On a machine with enough memory, you can add "-pipe" to both CFLAGS-like options in /etc/make.conf. In fact, I use "-m486 -O2 -pipe" on all my "production" kernels and binaries (noting, for the less up-to-date, that 2.1-R also requires "-fno-strength-reduce" for "correct" code generation). Having transitioned my own networks from Interactive SVR3.2, it should be noted that the reason why SysV-derived systems allow "quick" compilation of new user configurations is that (almost) the only things they translate are the "space.c" files containing tables (plain data) referencing the object code stored in one or more system libraries (since you don't get the source-code). The compiler used doesn't for this have to be fancy .. no amount of optimisation is likely to have any impact on a data-only structure. Greater flexibility and performance has its price .. IMHO it's well worth the one-time overhead, michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 22:19:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA09301 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com ([206.245.251.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA09292 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA13311; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607140517.WAA13311@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: interfaces, routes, etc. To: archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:17:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607132345.QAA00884@bubba.whistle.com> from "Archie Cobbs" at Jul 13, 96 04:45:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I'm finding some weird behavior in -current with regards to interface > numbering, aliases, automatically generated routes, ARP entries, etc. > > One specific example... > > - When you bring an EtherNet interface up and ping some addresses > on that network, you get automatically generated LINK layer routes > (ie, arp entries). However, when you bring the interface down > these routes do not automatically go away. > > [ I thought there was discussion about this before and agreement > that "automatically generated routes should be automatically > removed, and static routes should always be left alone." If so, > I'd be happy to produce a patch for review. ] > > One very weird but non-reproducible case involved an ethernet interface > that had been renumbered several times on the same class c network. > It got into a situation where "ifconfig" clearly showed the address > as a single number (and netstat showed sane settings as well), but > pinging *certain* addresses on the ethernet would cause transmitted > packets to have the old source ip address. > > In general, old alias addresses sometimes seem to "haunt" an interface > long after they have been deleted. I'm betting that this is a cached route.. the validity check for the rtentry checks that the interface still exists and that it is up, but I don't think it checks for the address still being valid.. check ether_output() in if_ethersubr.c. I think that whole section is a kludge and needs to be shot.. > > Another question: > > - Exactly what is the netmask, as configured on a point-to-point > interface, used for? If anything, which address does it apply to, > the local or the remote one? > > In FreeBSD: > > - The local and remote addresses do not need be part of the > same network hmm didn't we figure out this was being done wrong by code inspection? > > - The local address can be 0.0.0.0, but not the remote address > > - It is possible to set aliases address pairs on a point-to-point > link which share the same destination, but not the same source > > I assume this is to be as flexible as possible for people trying > to do funny things like half routing, etc. > > However, I don't understand the third one above; you should be > able to have address pairs with the same source and different > destination addresses; this would apply nicely to NBMA (non-broadcast > multiple access) networks such as frame relay. > > My suggestions... > > - Automatically generated link layer routes get removed when an > interface is brought down. > > - Allow NMBA type addressing on point-to-point links like this: > > tun1: flags=8051 mtu 1500 > inet 1.1.1.1 --> 2.2.2.2 netmask 0xff000000 > inet 1.1.1.1 --> 3.3.3.3 netmask 0xff000000 > inet 1.1.1.1 --> 4.4.4.4 netmask 0xff000000 > > - Declare that any interface which has the POINTOPOINT but not the > BROADCAST flag set, and which allows multiple (alias) address > pairs, is by definition a NBMA network. > > > -Archie > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Archie L. Cobbs, archie@whistle.com * Whistle Communications Corporation > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 22:34:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA10318 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA10074 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rover.village.org (8.7.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA07492; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:29:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607140529.XAA07492@rover.village.org> To: Bruce Evans Subject: Re: Some interesting papers on BSD ... Cc: matt@lkg.dec.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-kern@netbsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 09 Jul 1996 11:31:59 +1000 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:29:08 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : spl is probably fundamentally wrong for SMP. I haven't thought much : about what to use instead. The Solbourne people might disagree with you. As might the VMS Digitial people. Both groups used a scheme where you would raise the spl *AND* grab access locks to data structures (I think the latter was optional on VMS depending on the, as I recall it, NCPU SYSGEN parameter). Both these systems used fairly fine grained locking and took a lot of time to get right and robust. Sun, when they were writing Solaris, is rumored to have produced "warlock." This program would go through all your sources and warn of potential deadlock situations in them. They never released it as they considered it a competitive advantage to them... There is no other way to do MP synchronization than using some kind of explicit locking that doesn't rely on the interrupt level.[*] Warner [*] Or I'd like ot be pointed at something that proves this statement wrong. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 22:39:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA11416 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA11405 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 22:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA21721; Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:35:11 +1000 From: David Dawes Message-Id: <199607140535.PAA21721@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Subject: Re: Kernel Config (Was: GENERIC Kernel Debate) To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 15:35:11 +1000 (EST) Cc: lenzi@cwbone.bsi.com.br, sextonr.crestvie@squared.com, freebsd-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607140320.UAA00618@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Jul 13, 96 08:20:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>From The Desk Of "Lenzi, Sergio" : >> On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Sexton, Robert wrote: >> >> Hello Robert, >> I have been using sysV kernels for a long time too. Now I am an BSD >> converted. The problem for kernel build time (30 minutes) or so seems to >> be too long compared with of a SysV rel 3.2. > >The issue of 30minutes for a kernel compile has got to be due >to gcc . Not sure what changed between gcc-1.42 and and gcc-2.x however >simple minded experiments have shown that gcc-2.x takes about 3 times >longer to compile. The other major factor is the cpu/disk/controller and >if you have a minimally configured system, memory is important. One big difference on most commercial OSs is that you don't have the kernel source, and so at most, you are just recompiling the small pieces required by config changes, and linking pre-compiled objects. If there was an option to do the same thing with FreeBSD, kernel rebuild time would be much less than 30 minutes too. David From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 23:24:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA15551 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from walkabout.asstdc.com.au (root@walkabout.asstdc.com.au [202.12.127.73]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA15539 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by walkabout.asstdc.com.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id QAA00562 Sun, 14 Jul 1996 16:23:47 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199607140623.QAA00562@walkabout.asstdc.com.au> Subject: Re: interfaces, routes, etc. To: archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 16:23:47 +1000 (EST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607132345.QAA00884@bubba.whistle.com> from Archie Cobbs at "Jul 13, 96 04:45:02 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > - When you bring an EtherNet interface up and ping some addresses > on that network, you get automatically generated LINK layer routes > (ie, arp entries). However, when you bring the interface down > these routes do not automatically go away. I must admit that I was puzzled as to why it was necessary to add MAC addresses into the route table. I thought they belonged in the ARP table and nowhere else .. > One very weird but non-reproducible case involved an ethernet interface > that had been renumbered several times on the same class c network. The proper behaviour in changing an IP address, I'm told, is to send out a packet advising everyone else on the local ether that their ARP table entries for that particular IP address are now invalid. You can see this by watching the output of a Cisco when you change its address. It seems that FreeBSD doesn't do this when (typically) an "ifconfig delete" is done and other hosts (or routers :-() on the same wire tend to get a little confused, michael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 23:42:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA18808 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sgigate.sgi.com (sgigate.SGI.COM [204.94.209.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA18800 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com by sgigate.sgi.com via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406a.SGI) id XAA11217; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:42:15 -0700 Received: from neteng.engr.sgi.com (neteng.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.10]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/960327.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA14709; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:42:13 -0700 Received: (from dm@localhost) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/960327.SGI.AUTOCF) id XAA15566; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:42:12 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:42:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199607140642.XAA15566@neteng.engr.sgi.com> From: "David S. Miller" To: imp@village.org CC: bde@zeta.org.au, matt@lkg.dec.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-kern@NetBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199607140529.XAA07492@rover.village.org> (message from Warner Losh on Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:29:08 -0600) Subject: Re: Some interesting papers on BSD ... Reply-to: dm@sgi.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:29:08 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sun, when they were writing Solaris, is rumored to have produced "warlock." This program would go through all your sources and warn of potential deadlock situations in them. They never released it as they considered it a competitive advantage to them... Solaris kernel also has a debugging feature, it's called "deadman". Every so often a timer based callout runs which runs down all the mutex/semaphore/spinlock holder lists in the kernel and panics if any circular and/or deadlock cases are found. Later, David S. Miller dm@sgi.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jul 13 23:59:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA21121 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA21109 for ; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id XAA02107 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:59:36 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 23:59:36 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199607140659.XAA02107@kithrup.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: "login classes" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I was a Busy Boy today. While doing some other task%, I decided to start implementing login classes for FreeBSD. They are heavily modeled after the BSD/OS versions, of course, since that's the only implementation I know of ;). I've been poring over BSD/OS header files and man pages for a couple of weeks now, and, since I had a bunch of idle time today while waiting for my other task% to complete, I went for it. I implemented, as far as I can tell, the library side of the BSD/OS login class stuff. My test program -- which doesn't *do* anything useful, admittedly -- does seem to work. There are three sides to the login classes -- the library functions, modified utilities, and some new utilities to provide authentication. I don't know that I can do the login et al modifications, and I *know* I don't know about about kerberos and S/Key to write that. (Basicly, the reason I want this is because I want to be able to use S/Key. However, I don't like having a seperate account name for that. The login classes allow you to specify something like, "sef:skey" at the login: prompt, and login will then use S/Key instead of the default mechanism. It also removes all password and/or authentication from the login program proper, relying on /usr/libexec/auth_* -- e.g., /usr/libexec/auth_passwd and /usr/libexec/auth_skey.) So... who knows login and related commands, and who knows kerberos, password authentication, and S/Key? ;) Sean. ---- % I would say what this task was, but the *last* time I mentioned it on the list, I got yelled at for several weeks for offending people's sensibilities. ;) ----