From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 00:20:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA03426 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA03418 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com ([204.244.213.33]) by misery.sdf.com with SMTP id <1344-9453>; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:20:08 -0800 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:19:59 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Samplonius To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: "limit" strangeness Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is weird. The soft limit for "datasize" is larger than the hard limit. The softlimit amount for "datasize" coresponds to the MAXDSIZ and DFLDSIZ param in my kernel config. But what sets the hard limit size? Is the hard limit based on MAXMEM (system has 128M)? Isn't MAXMEM supposed to indicate the amount of physical memory? Script started on Sun Nov 24 00:19:19 1996 atlas# limit cputime unlimited filesize unlimited datasize 195312 kbytes stacksize 8192 kbytes coredumpsize unlimited memoryuse 63496 kbytes memorylocked 42333 kbytes maxproc 256 openfiles 512 atlas# limit -h cputime unlimited filesize unlimited datasize 131072 kbytes stacksize 65536 kbytes coredumpsize unlimited memoryuse unlimited memorylocked 127000 kbytes maxproc unlimited openfiles unlimited atlas# whoami root atlas# Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 00:20:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA03516 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyson.iquest.net ([198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA03507 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:20:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.2/8.6.9) id DAA00385; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 03:20:21 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199611240820.DAA00385@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Stereo RealAudio for FreeBSD! To: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu (Charles Henrich) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 03:20:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611231954.OAA19269@crh.cl.msu.edu> from "Charles Henrich" at Nov 23, 96 02:54:45 pm Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > MPEG doesnt drop to 28.8... > > Im not interested in low bandwidth <128kbps audio transmissions because even > the best are unnacceptable to me. I can listen to kissFM finland at ~110kbps > and listen to perfect stereo CD music thats just incredible. Im a high quality > kinda guy :) > I have been trying to find any major negative artifacts using mpeg at 384 and really can't find any (sounds really good.) I am going to have to go to serious A/B to find the defects. Of course, some of your (or someones) comments about the mpeg process degrading pretty quickly below 128 or so appears to be true. However, music is quite recognizable, and would be tolerable on cheap speakers or in a car perhaps at 96 or so... Really really thanks for the pointer to the mpeg stuff, because frankly, I find that the 384 sounds really good, and saves about 4:1 on diskspace, and takes about 1/4 or less of the time of my audio AGC (various processing) playthings... I would use 160, but I don't want to risk the quality unnecessarily, because I know that I will soon hear problems there (don't have golden ears, but I can distinguish things pretty well -- and cr*ppy sound bugs me terribly.) Also, it appears that 128 would be quite tolerable for casual listening. Sorry if this is boring for all you multimedia software experts, but I am a bit of a newbie in this stuff, finally PC hardware appears to start becoming really interesting for playing with all the ideas that this frustrated ex-EE has been having over the years... John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 00:28:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA03828 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA03811; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA06863; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:28:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611240828.AAA06863@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: dyson@FreeBSD.org cc: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu (Charles Henrich), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, multimedia@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Stereo RealAudio for FreeBSD! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Nov 1996 03:20:21 EST." <199611240820.DAA00385@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:28:30 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just hang around in comp.compress read the FAQ . Thats not an RTF(FAQ) rather a good starting point to get into nefty data compression algorithms. Now the guy to bug about hardware mpeg encoding is for sure Brian Litzinger he has all the goodies tucked away -- I tell you some people just have all all the fun in the world 8) I am moving all of this to multimedia please follow up there ... Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of "John S. Dyson" : > > > > MPEG doesnt drop to 28.8... > > > > Im not interested in low bandwidth <128kbps audio transmissions because eve n > > the best are unnacceptable to me. I can listen to kissFM finland at ~110kb ps > > and listen to perfect stereo CD music thats just incredible. Im a high qua lity > > kinda guy :) > > > I have been trying to find any major negative artifacts using mpeg at 384 > and really can't find any (sounds really good.) I am going to have to > go to serious A/B to find the defects. Of course, some of your (or someones) > comments about the mpeg process degrading pretty quickly below 128 or so > appears to be true. However, music is quite recognizable, and would be > tolerable on cheap speakers or in a car perhaps at 96 or so... Really really > thanks for the pointer to the mpeg stuff, because frankly, I find that the > 384 sounds really good, and saves about 4:1 on diskspace, and takes about > 1/4 or less of the time of my audio AGC (various processing) playthings... > I would use 160, but I don't want to risk the quality unnecessarily, because > I know that I will soon hear problems there (don't have golden ears, but I > can distinguish things pretty well -- and cr*ppy sound bugs me terribly.) > > Also, it appears that 128 would be quite tolerable for casual listening. Sor ry > if this is boring for all you multimedia software experts, but I am a bit > of a newbie in this stuff, finally PC hardware appears to start becoming > really interesting for playing with all the ideas that this frustrated > ex-EE has been having over the years... > > John > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 00:39:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA04324 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA04312 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:39:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com ([204.244.213.33]) by misery.sdf.com with SMTP id <1344-9462>; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:39:54 -0800 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:39:40 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Samplonius To: Kent Vander Velden cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: ping and freebsd crashes In-Reply-To: <9611240526.AA18429@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Kent Vander Velden wrote: > After reading the url that was mentioned earlier about ping I tried to > crash an Irix 5.2 machine. I used OSF/1 v3.2 'ping -q -f -l 200 -s > 5000'. The network appeared to take quite a beating. Sort of related > to wanting to try this was that I have been working on a network packet > analyzer and wanted to see how much of a load this pinging would cause. > The network analyzer runs on a freebsd machine and uses libpcap. The > interesting part of all this is the freebsd machine crashed and in fact > crashed really hard. In the worst case a user's home directory and 50% > of /bin and misc. was removed. I must point out that the freebsd > machine was not being pinged nor was it doing the pinging it was simply > a machine on the network with it's interface running in promiscuous mode. > I also tried tcpdump to make sure that it was not my program that was > causing problems with the same result. Was your analyzer doing disk i/o at the same time? To the affected filesystems? How much memory does the test machine have in it? > There where many > "lnc0: missed packet -- no receive buffer" > and > "lnc0: Framming error" > messages with the killer appearing to be > "panic brelse: free buffer onto another queue?" Have you tried some other kind of ethernet card? It could be driver related. > Perhaps this problems is no longer present. I wish I could tell you > the version of the os that I had but that was lost when I installed the > 961014 snap to reclaim the binaries lost during the crashes. I will try > to find if this problem is present with this snapshot as soon as I am in > a position that I will not lose network connectivity if the machine does > not come back up. > > This would seem like a rather serious problem. Not really. It involves putting the ethernet device in promiscous mode. This is rare and involves root access. It has always been risky, because some hardware doesn't like it. I've seen some NE2000s get stuck in promiscous mode and do all kinds of strange things. > Thanks. > > --- > Kent Vander Velden > graphix@iastate.edu > > Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 02:56:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA09052 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 02:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from spiff.cc.iastate.edu (spiff.cc.iastate.edu [129.186.142.89]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA09003 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 02:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by spiff.cc.iastate.edu with sendmail-5.65 id ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:54:50 -0600 Message-Id: <9611241054.AA19315@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> To: Tom Samplonius Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: ping and freebsd crashes In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:39:40 PST." Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:54:49 CST From: Kent Vander Velden Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , tom@sdf.c om writes: > >On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Kent Vander Velden wrote: > >> After reading the url that was mentioned earlier about ping I tried to >> crash an Irix 5.2 machine. I used OSF/1 v3.2 'ping -q -f -l 200 -s >> 5000'. The network appeared to take quite a beating. Sort of related >> to wanting to try this was that I have been working on a network packet >> analyzer and wanted to see how much of a load this pinging would cause. >> The network analyzer runs on a freebsd machine and uses libpcap. The >> interesting part of all this is the freebsd machine crashed and in fact >> crashed really hard. In the worst case a user's home directory and 50% >> of /bin and misc. was removed. I must point out that the freebsd >> machine was not being pinged nor was it doing the pinging it was simply >> a machine on the network with it's interface running in promiscuous mode. >> I also tried tcpdump to make sure that it was not my program that was >> causing problems with the same result. > > Was your analyzer doing disk i/o at the same time? To the affected >filesystems? It is capable of doing disk i/o. If a sigint was sent to it it would have dumped some information. > How much memory does the test machine have in it? 20M and used for very little. There is not really a load on it. >> There where many >> "lnc0: missed packet -- no receive buffer" >> and >> "lnc0: Framming error" >> messages with the killer appearing to be >> "panic brelse: free buffer onto another queue?" > > Have you tried some other kind of ethernet card? It could be driver >related. No, I have not. >> Perhaps this problems is no longer present. I wish I could tell you >> the version of the os that I had but that was lost when I installed the >> 961014 snap to reclaim the binaries lost during the crashes. I will try >> to find if this problem is present with this snapshot as soon as I am in >> a position that I will not lose network connectivity if the machine does >> not come back up. >> >> This would seem like a rather serious problem. > > Not really. It involves putting the ethernet device in promiscous mode. >This is rare and involves root access. It has always been risky, because >some hardware doesn't like it. I've seen some NE2000s get stuck in >promiscous mode and do all kinds of strange things. > If the interface is not in promiscuous mode the system does not crash but instead reports the mentioned errors over and over. Unfort. some of my systems have to be in promiscuous mode all the time since they have rarpd (or is it rbootd that does it) running on them. Seemed nasty that I could remotely crash a system in this way :) --- Kent Vander Velden graphix@iastate.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 09:46:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA09052 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 02:56:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from spiff.cc.iastate.edu (spiff.cc.iastate.edu [129.186.142.89]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA09003 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 02:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by spiff.cc.iastate.edu with sendmail-5.65 id ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:54:50 -0600 Message-Id: <9611241054.AA19315@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> To: Tom Samplonius Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: ping and freebsd crashes In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Nov 1996 00:39:40 PST." Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:54:49 CST From: Kent Vander Velden Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , tom@sdf.c om writes: > >On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Kent Vander Velden wrote: > >> After reading the url that was mentioned earlier about ping I tried to >> crash an Irix 5.2 machine. I used OSF/1 v3.2 'ping -q -f -l 200 -s >> 5000'. The network appeared to take quite a beating. Sort of related >> to wanting to try this was that I have been working on a network packet >> analyzer and wanted to see how much of a load this pinging would cause. >> The network analyzer runs on a freebsd machine and uses libpcap. The >> interesting part of all this is the freebsd machine crashed and in fact >> crashed really hard. In the worst case a user's home directory and 50% >> of /bin and misc. was removed. I must point out that the freebsd >> machine was not being pinged nor was it doing the pinging it was simply >> a machine on the network with it's interface running in promiscuous mode. >> I also tried tcpdump to make sure that it was not my program that was >> causing problems with the same result. > > Was your analyzer doing disk i/o at the same time? To the affected >filesystems? It is capable of doing disk i/o. If a sigint was sent to it it would have dumped some information. > How much memory does the test machine have in it? 20M and used for very little. There is not really a load on it. >> There where many >> "lnc0: missed packet -- no receive buffer" >> and >> "lnc0: Framming error" >> messages with the killer appearing to be >> "panic brelse: free buffer onto another queue?" > > Have you tried some other kind of ethernet card? It could be driver >related. No, I have not. >> Perhaps this problems is no longer present. I wish I could tell you >> the version of the os that I had but that was lost when I installed the >> 961014 snap to reclaim the binaries lost during the crashes. I will try >> to find if this problem is present with this snapshot as soon as I am in >> a position that I will not lose network connectivity if the machine does >> not come back up. >> >> This would seem like a rather serious problem. > > Not really. It involves putting the ethernet device in promiscous mode. >This is rare and involves root access. It has always been risky, because >some hardware doesn't like it. I've seen some NE2000s get stuck in >promiscous mode and do all kinds of strange things. > If the interface is not in promiscuous mode the system does not crash but instead reports the mentioned errors over and over. Unfort. some of my systems have to be in promiscuous mode all the time since they have rarpd (or is it rbootd that does it) running on them. Seemed nasty that I could remotely crash a system in this way :) --- Kent Vander Velden graphix@iastate.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 09:54:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00971 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00950; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from iafnl.es.iaf.nl (uucp@iafnl.es.iaf.nl [195.108.17.20]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id IAA08564 ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA07106 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:25:38 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.7.5/8.6.12) id NAA10947; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:56:45 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199611241256.NAA10947@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) To: sos@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:56:45 +0100 (MET) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, mark@quickweb.com, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611231906.UAA07327@ravenock.cybercity.dk> from "sos@freebsd.org" at Nov 23, 96 08:06:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As sos@freebsd.org wrote... > In reply to Wilko Bulte who wrote: > > > > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote... > > > > > > check for $500 or so for the purpose of buying as many IDE CDROM > > > drivers as he can for the money. That probably won't be more > > > than 3 or 4, so several things would still be very helpful: > > I suggest Soren sends to -hackers an overview of what he bought. I > > can probably buy some more for very little $ (the company I work > > for (DEC), every now and then sells drives that come from dismantled > > machines but are still functional. The prices hover around Dfl 10-20 > > which means $ 8 - 15 each). I suppose these drives are suitable enough > > to get 'farm' of drives for testing. > > Will do.. This may be vain hope but: is there a 'wishlist'/overview of notorious drives? In other words: should I look for specific models/manufacturers when I get the chance? Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 09:54:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01022 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01006 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id HAA08350 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 07:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vRgrX-0021ViC; Sun, 24 Nov 96 10:52 EST Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA29227; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:59:39 -0600 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:59:39 -0600 From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <199611241559.JAA29227@bonkers.taronga.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Input on changing "dump" output? Newsgroups: taronga.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: <199610300649.HAA09403@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <96Oct29.182310pst.177480@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Organization: none Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199610300649.HAA09403@uriah.heep.sax.de>, J Wunsch wrote: >line to avoid the silly second "DUMP:". I once did, and people >started screaming... i simply didn't know that Amanda does such a >stupid job in parsing the output. (Presumably a hard-coded scanf() >only.) Regular expression, actually. And easily changed, there's a coded in table for all sorts of perversions of dump output. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 09:55:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01100 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01079 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ginger.vnet.net (ginger.vnet.net [166.82.1.69]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA08480 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by ginger.vnet.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id LAA15473 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:20:26 -0500 Received: from artist.vnet.net (artist.vnet.net [166.82.239.40]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA20553 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:13:24 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.4 [p0] on FreeBSD Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:57:52 -0500 (EST) From: Edwin Burley To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 2.2-ALPHA can not make kernel Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello I am getting and error when I make kernel for 2.2-ALPHA... the error is ./.. -I/usr/include -DALLOW_CONFLICT_IRQ -DALLOW_CONFLICT_IOADDR -DSBC_IRQ=5 -D COMPAT_43 -DKERNEL ../../net/if_tun.c ./../net/if_tun.c: In function `tuninit': ./../net/if_tun.c:234: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ./../net/if_tun.c:238: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type ./../net/if_tun.c: In function `tunwrite': ./../net/if_tun.c:575: `ipintrq' undeclared (first use this function) ./../net/if_tun.c:575: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once ./../net/if_tun.c:575: for each function it appears in.) *** Error code 1 Stop. help please... thanks ---------------------------------- E-Mail: khan@vnet.net ---------------- E-Mail: khan@vnet.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 09:58:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01406 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:58:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01383 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA08288 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 07:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id KAA25714; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:27:13 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199611241527.KAA25714@crh.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: RealAudio for FreeBSD! To: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:27:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from Jim Durham at "Nov 23, 96 10:42:37 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Indeed... I hate to complain, I'm so happy they remembered us! (But > it *was* sorta dorky to do that to our home directory listings. > > Tell us how badly it breaks it to chop off the file name in the binary 8-). I havent been able to find it, and I've pretty much zero'd every reference to Progressive Networks.. *grumble* -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 09:59:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01433 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01392 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id HAA08313 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 07:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vRgYg-0021ViC; Sun, 24 Nov 96 10:33 EST Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA28864; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:40:09 -0600 From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <199611241540.JAA28864@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: NI6510 supprt? To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:40:08 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, peter@taronga.com In-Reply-To: <199611241350.OAA11354@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Nov 24, 96 02:50:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I was *sure* FreeBSD supported the NI6510 card, but now I can't find > > any references to it in the FAQ? Was I dreaming, or did it get dumped > > for lack of support? > What is it? AM7990-based 10BT + AUI NIC. Racal-Interlan INC. NI6510C-10BT 620-0220-00 REV XA AW REV XA Racal Interlan 625-0220-00 REV-AA 150N1585 Made in USA It's got all the jumper settings nicely silkscreened on the card, too. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 09:59:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01448 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01412 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id HAA08325 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 07:48:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id QAA24518; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:46:48 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA23885; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:46:47 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id QAA12179; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:45:08 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611241545.QAA12179@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: NI6510 supprt? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:45:08 +0100 (MET) Cc: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611241540.JAA28864@bonkers.taronga.com> from Peter da Silva at "Nov 24, 96 09:40:08 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Peter da Silva wrote: > > > I was *sure* FreeBSD supported the NI6510 card, but now I can't find > > > any references to it in the FAQ? Was I dreaming, or did it get dumped > > > for lack of support? > > > What is it? > > AM7990-based 10BT + AUI NIC. Ah, then try the `lnc' driver. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 10:00:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01671 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA01623; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA08282 ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 07:30:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id KAA25683; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:24:59 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199611241524.KAA25683@crh.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: Stereo RealAudio for FreeBSD! To: dyson@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:24:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611240820.DAA00385@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Nov 24, 96 03:20:21 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I have been trying to find any major negative artifacts using mpeg at 384 > and really can't find any (sounds really good.) I am going to have to > go to serious A/B to find the defects. Of course, some of your (or someones) > comments about the mpeg process degrading pretty quickly below 128 or so > appears to be true. However, music is quite recognizable, and would be Hmm, I havent been able to distinguish a 128 vs CD stream except in the rarest of cases (pure digital tones seem to get thwacked the worst). Have you tried a 256kbps bit rate? > if this is boring for all you multimedia software experts, but I am a bit > of a newbie in this stuff, finally PC hardware appears to start becoming > really interesting for playing with all the ideas that this frustrated > ex-EE has been having over the years... :) What sort of thing are you using this for John? -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 10:01:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01925 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA01883 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id GAA08099 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 06:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id PAA22607 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:22:12 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA22455 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:22:12 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id OAA11431 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:57:01 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611241357.OAA11431@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: IDE CDROM experiences (was: ATAPI To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:57:01 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Andrew Stesin at "Nov 24, 96 02:34:39 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Andrew Stesin wrote: > BTW I shold note, that whatever ATAPI driver in 2.2 is, > it was giving me just 100% success since approx. June 2.2-SNAP, ... > All tested configurations were "slave on wdc1". I've got the Toshiba working in either master or slave configuration on wdc1. > Can I bring at least 2.2 ATAPI driver to 2.1.6? (didn't get time > to try this yet, but interested in the ability). 2.1.6 is ``sold''. But no worries, the ``target market'' for 2.1.6 aren't people buying ATAPI crap anyway, so this doesn't matter much. It's more important that the ATAPI driver in 2.2 will be up to the minute. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 10:01:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01941 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA01888 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id GAA08091 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 06:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vRfEB-0021WgC; Sun, 24 Nov 96 09:08 EST Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA27560; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:14:53 -0600 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:14:53 -0600 From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <199611241414.IAA27560@bonkers.taronga.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2).)) Newsgroups: taronga.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: References: <9611240314.AA03473@communica.com.au> ,<9611240314.AA03473@communica.com.au> Organization: none Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article , Warner Losh wrote: >You have stated that it is a bad idea, but you have not offered an >alternative. Nor have you really said why it is a good idea, beyond >removing some bloat from sendmail. Remove sendmail. Make it an option. Make qmail the primary mail transport agent on FreeBSD. If someone needs a really complex mail routing environment or batching of outgoing mail over a low speed line (about the only things they can do under sendmail that qmail won't handle) they can install the port/package for sendmail. That would also make it easier for sendmail users to keep up to date (which they have to be doing anyway). I'm running too far back (2.0.5) to do this right now, but I'm planning on moving up to -current once I get a couple more bits for my new beater machine (Stephanie doesn't like me taking Bonkers down for some reason) so I can actually hook it up and do real work on it. That's probably not going to happen until after Usenix. As for "non-root users binding to low ports", the logical thing to do is to put the access to ports in the file system, and then set the permissions on /dev/tcp/25 to "rw-rw---- mailagent mailgroup". This can be done by modifying bind() to look at something devfs sets up, making bind() a library routine that does an open and uses an ioctl to establish access rights, making bind() look to see if you have the right "ip special file" open, or by replacing the whole socket/bind sequence with an explicit open (academicly elegant but would break EVERYTHING). I believe that there are already some hooks in access to hardware that depend on having a specific special file open but don't actually use that file descriptor for anything, so that's probably the best way to go. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 10:03:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02142 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02109 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id FAA08022 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 05:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id OAA21835; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:51:44 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id OAA21911; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:51:43 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id OAA11354; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:50:06 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611241350.OAA11354@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: NI6510 supprt? To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:50:06 +0100 (MET) Cc: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611231608.KAA05915@bonkers.taronga.com> from Peter da Silva at "Nov 23, 96 10:08:53 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Peter da Silva wrote: > I was *sure* FreeBSD supported the NI6510 card, but now I can't find > any references to it in the FAQ? Was I dreaming, or did it get dumped > for lack of support? What is it? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 10:08:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02773 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02743 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:08:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from whale.gu.kiev.ua ([194.93.190.4]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id EAA07828 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:37:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from creator.gu.kiev.ua (stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua [194.93.190.3]) by whale.gu.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA24174; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:34:40 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:34:39 +0200 (EET) From: Andrew Stesin X-Sender: stesin@creator.gu.kiev.ua To: Warner Losh cc: Joerg Wunsch , FreeBSD hackers Subject: IDE CDROM experiences (was: ATAPI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-NCC-RegID: ua.gu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, > There is a local store selling used IDE cdroms (4x) for $39 each. At > least I think they are IDE drives. I have two questions: 1) How do I > tell for sure By looking at their usermanual and on the drive's back side where interface and controlling jumper are located If you see goodold IDE connector and 3-pos. jumper with "Master-Slave-CableSelect" -- that's IDE :-) The price seems to be pretty usual for IDE CDROMs even here in Kiev -- dirt cheap. BTW I shold note, that whatever ATAPI driver in 2.2 is, it was giving me just 100% success since approx. June 2.2-SNAP, with just any drives (Sony CDU-55E, Hitachi CDR-7730 are the ones I can reference by model name, but there were also some Creative, Azteh(?), Panasonic ones). All tested configurations were "slave on wdc1". 2.1.6 ATAPI driver isn't so robust, it didn't work in any of the above configurations. :-( Just now I have a SCSI box but with IDE CDROM (Creative CRE-JTB Quad Speed) on wdc0 and 2.1.6-R just doesn't see even wdc controllers, no matter is CDROM a "master" or "slave" device. Can I bring at least 2.2 ATAPI driver to 2.1.6? (didn't get time to try this yet, but interested in the ability). I sholuld also mention that SCSI CDROM drives are now simply dissapearing from PC hardware market. So like this or not -- you won't always get SCSI CDROM even if you sincerely want it. > and 2) would anybody be interested in me picking one up > and mailing it somewhere? > > Warner -- Best, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 10:33:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04264 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04258 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com ([204.244.213.33]) by misery.sdf.com with SMTP id <1344-9453>; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:33:19 -0800 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:33:07 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Samplonius To: Kent Vander Velden cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: ping and freebsd crashes In-Reply-To: <9611241054.AA19315@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Kent Vander Velden wrote: > In message , tom@sdf.c > om writes: > > > >On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Kent Vander Velden wrote: > > > >> After reading the url that was mentioned earlier about ping I tried to > >> crash an Irix 5.2 machine. I used OSF/1 v3.2 'ping -q -f -l 200 -s > >> 5000'. The network appeared to take quite a beating. Sort of related > >> to wanting to try this was that I have been working on a network packet > >> analyzer and wanted to see how much of a load this pinging would cause. > >> The network analyzer runs on a freebsd machine and uses libpcap. The > >> interesting part of all this is the freebsd machine crashed and in fact > >> crashed really hard. In the worst case a user's home directory and 50% > >> of /bin and misc. was removed. I must point out that the freebsd > >> machine was not being pinged nor was it doing the pinging it was simply > >> a machine on the network with it's interface running in promiscuous mode. > >> I also tried tcpdump to make sure that it was not my program that was > >> causing problems with the same result. > > > > Was your analyzer doing disk i/o at the same time? To the affected > >filesystems? > > It is capable of doing disk i/o. If a sigint was sent to it it would > have dumped some information. > > > How much memory does the test machine have in it? > > 20M and used for very little. There is not really a load on it. Are you using a non-GENERIC kernel? If so, do you have BOUNCE_BUFFERS compiled in? If so, this is your problem. Apparently the lance ethernet cards use DMA, and if you have more than 16MB and no bounce buffers, the card could be overwriting all kinds of thing in main memory, including file buffers (which would explain disk corruption). ... > > Not really. It involves putting the ethernet device in promiscous mode. > >This is rare and involves root access. It has always been risky, because > >some hardware doesn't like it. I've seen some NE2000s get stuck in > >promiscous mode and do all kinds of strange things. > > > > If the interface is not in promiscuous mode the system does not crash > but instead reports the mentioned errors over and over. Unfort. some of > my systems have to be in promiscuous mode all the time since they have > rarpd (or is it rbootd that does it) running on them. Seemed nasty > that I could remotely crash a system in this way :) I believe that both of these tools only look for ethernet broadcasts. Putting a ethernet into promiscous mode is something you want to avoid because of the amount of load it generates on the system. In promiscous mode, the CPU has to store and process *everything* on the wire, rather than just traffic with its ethernet address and the ethernet broadcast address. > --- > Kent Vander Velden > graphix@iastate.edu > Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 10:47:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04768 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04759 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA02874; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:46:58 -0800 (PST) To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2).)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:14:53 CST." <199611241414.IAA27560@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:46:58 -0800 Message-ID: <2872.848861218@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Remove sendmail. Make it an option. Make qmail the primary mail transport > agent on FreeBSD. If someone needs a really complex mail routing environment [Whap!] If I ever catching you sniffing glue again, young man, there's going to be trouble. At the very least, don't post email while under the influence. :-) Jordan P.S. Needless to say, this is a terrible idea. The user QA alone would murder us. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 10:51:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04981 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04976 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA02855; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:45:24 -0800 (PST) To: Andrew Stesin cc: Warner Losh , Joerg Wunsch , FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: IDE CDROM experiences (was: ATAPI In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:34:39 +0200." Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:45:23 -0800 Message-ID: <2853.848861123@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 2.1.6 ATAPI driver isn't so robust, it didn't work > in any of the above configurations. :-( Just now I have > a SCSI box but with IDE CDROM (Creative CRE-JTB Quad Speed) > on wdc0 and 2.1.6-R just doesn't see even wdc controllers, > no matter is CDROM a "master" or "slave" device. > > Can I bring at least 2.2 ATAPI driver to 2.1.6? (didn't get time > to try this yet, but interested in the ability). As much as I'd like the 2.1.6 driver to be more robust, I'm afraid that we're truly done with that release now. :) > I sholuld also mention that SCSI CDROM drives are now simply > dissapearing from PC hardware market. So like this or not -- > you won't always get SCSI CDROM even if you sincerely want it. Uh.. Maybe in Russia, but around here they're just as plentiful as ever! :-) In fact, they've been dropping in price significantly and it's now possible buy an 8X SCSI CDROM drive (from NEC) for less than $200. I also just purchased a 12X SCSI drive in Las Vegas for $349, and I would expect it to be somewhat cheaper in the San Francisco Bay Area. Performance is very good. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 11:11:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06204 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06193 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA12086 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:20:34 +0100 (MET) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199611241920.UAA12086@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Some observations on 2.2-ALPHA To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:20:33 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I've installed 2.2-ALPHA on a P75/32M/1GB SCSI/NE200 compat. machine and I have found a few little things that are incorrect. I'm a bit stressed right now and I'm not up to finding out how to send_pr and what has been reported allready. Sorry about that, anyone feel free to send PRs with this as material, though. :) * In FTP site selection there is a note above the actual choises, which says to chose a site, or "other". "other" is called URL in the actual list. Maybe check what the help on this says, too. I haven't. Should be URL everywhere. * Astro, chinese, and gdb-4.16 packages/package groups have no descriptions. Also, it seems a lot of packages were not available, emacs amoung them. * The sizes for stuff when you choose distribution is nto really correct. At least "All" in XFree86 shouldn't be [20M] when the source on the line above it [100M] :-) * Lots of kernel options seems to be very vaguely or not at all described in the LINT file. It's hard to know what devices do, and specially the strange options, like "APM_IDLE_CPU". Does the CPU normally halt or not? Is halting a good thing? etc * This is strange: Mouse move has started to work as a screensaver wakeup. That's nice, i think. However, it works only UNLESS you have the mouse on in the vty. I would think it should be the other way around, no? Also... I tried to build a custom kernel by copying the LINT file and changing it to my liking. I managed to get "panic: Can't mount root" and a jump into the debugger, when I booted it, though. I'm tryign to figure out why... Anyone got a clue what it might be? /Mikael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 11:53:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08430 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from spiff.cc.iastate.edu (spiff.cc.iastate.edu [129.186.142.89]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08417 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by spiff.cc.iastate.edu with sendmail-5.65 id ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:52:11 -0600 Message-Id: <9611241952.AA18700@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> To: Tom Samplonius Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: ping and freebsd crashes In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:33:07 PST." Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:52:10 CST From: Kent Vander Velden Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , tom@sdf.c om writes: > >On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Kent Vander Velden wrote: > >> In message , tom@sd >f.c >> om writes: >> > >> >On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Kent Vander Velden wrote: >> > >> >> After reading the url that was mentioned earlier about ping I tried to >> >> crash an Irix 5.2 machine. I used OSF/1 v3.2 'ping -q -f -l 200 -s >> >> 5000'. The network appeared to take quite a beating. Sort of related >> >> to wanting to try this was that I have been working on a network packet >> >> analyzer and wanted to see how much of a load this pinging would cause. >> >> The network analyzer runs on a freebsd machine and uses libpcap. The >> >> interesting part of all this is the freebsd machine crashed and in fact >> >> crashed really hard. In the worst case a user's home directory and 50% >> >> of /bin and misc. was removed. I must point out that the freebsd >> >> machine was not being pinged nor was it doing the pinging it was simply >> >> a machine on the network with it's interface running in promiscuous mode. >> >> I also tried tcpdump to make sure that it was not my program that was >> >> causing problems with the same result. >> > >> >> > How much memory does the test machine have in it? >> >> 20M and used for very little. There is not really a load on it. > > Are you using a non-GENERIC kernel? If so, do you have BOUNCE_BUFFERS >compiled in? If so, this is your problem. Apparently the lance ethernet >cards use DMA, and if you have more than 16MB and no bounce buffers, the >card could be overwriting all kinds of thing in main memory, including >file buffers (which would explain disk corruption). > Is a non-generic kernel it is one that has been customized then, yes I am using a non-generic kernel. It does have BOUNCE_BUFFERS enabled which I did to use the 20M and the 1542 in the machine. I am confused by your statement above. You seem to say that if BOUNCE_BUFFERS are enabled then this is a problem but describe a problem that happens when they are not enabled. Should I get a different ethernet card, remove memory or does someone have another suggestion? >... >> > Not really. It involves putting the ethernet device in promiscous mode. >> >This is rare and involves root access. It has always been risky, because >> >some hardware doesn't like it. I've seen some NE2000s get stuck in >> >promiscous mode and do all kinds of strange things. >> > >> >> If the interface is not in promiscuous mode the system does not crash >> but instead reports the mentioned errors over and over. Unfort. some of >> my systems have to be in promiscuous mode all the time since they have >> rarpd (or is it rbootd that does it) running on them. Seemed nasty >> that I could remotely crash a system in this way :) > > I believe that both of these tools only look for ethernet broadcasts. >Putting a ethernet into promiscous mode is something you want to avoid >because of the amount of load it generates on the system. In promiscous >mode, the CPU has to store and process *everything* on the wire, rather >than just traffic with its ethernet address and the ethernet broadcast >address. My mistake, it is rbootd that was concerning me. These are the messages that get generated when it starts so I assume that this "bug" might give the machines that are running rbootd a problem " Oct 20 14:56:41 pseudo rbootd[175]: restarted (ed0) Oct 20 14:56:41 pseudo rbootd[175]: bpf: can't add mcast addr (Invalid argument), setting promiscuous mode Oct 20 14:56:41 pseudo /kernel: ed0: promiscuous mode enabled " (This is a different system so that is why this is ed0 and the other was lnc0). Thanks. --- Kent Vander Velden graphix@iastate.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 12:21:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10167 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [206.222.77.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10161 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA01449; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:18:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:18:57 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Mayo To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Andrew Stesin , Warner Losh , Joerg Wunsch , FreeBSD hackers Subject: Re: IDE CDROM experiences (was: ATAPI In-Reply-To: <2853.848861123@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I sholuld also mention that SCSI CDROM drives are now simply > > dissapearing from PC hardware market. So like this or not -- > > you won't always get SCSI CDROM even if you sincerely want it. > > Uh.. Maybe in Russia, but around here they're just as plentiful as > ever! :-) In fact, they've been dropping in price significantly and > it's now possible buy an 8X SCSI CDROM drive (from NEC) for less than > $200. I also just purchased a 12X SCSI drive in Las Vegas for $349, > and I would expect it to be somewhat cheaper in the San Francisco > Bay Area. Performance is very good. Wow. It almost makes moving to America worth while... Well, maybe not ;-) Although you can _get_ SCSI CDROMs here in southern Ontario (Canada), they're still way up there in prices -- almost 2X the price of an equivalent speed IDE unit :-( Hopefully they'll start to become more popular or something and prices will drop. Overall, I find PC prices here in Canada equivalent to the US prices, but when it comes to SCSI, the Can. prices seem quite high -- especially CDROMs for some stupid reason.. -Mark > > Jordan > --------------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark | --------------------------------------------------- "To iterate is human, to recurse divine." - L. Peter Deutsch From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 13:20:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12581 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:20:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.217.133]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA12576 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:20:31 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA05402; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:20:00 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:19:42 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1656 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611241619_MC1-BCB-5D87@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1656 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: The requested item does not exist Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-19-96 03:32:00 PM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1656 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 13:20:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12619 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:20:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.217.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA12605 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:20:43 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA20166; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:20:07 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:19:42 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1656 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611241619_MC1-BCB-5D87@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from smyrno.sol.net (smyrno.sol.net [206.55.64.117]) by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA15553; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:31:47 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by smyrno.sol.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA15389; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:24:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA27758 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:56:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:56:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611191956.LAA27758@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1656 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Tuesday, 19 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1656 In this issue: Re: sendmail without DNS (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2).) Re: aic0 (/dev/rst0) problem Re: aic0 (/dev/rst0) problem Re: AH2940 complains about disk geometry Re: cdrom boot? 2.2-ALPHA data point - positive Re: split speed sio port? Re: aic0 (/dev/rst0) problem Re: PnP in 2.1.6 and 2.2 Creating a device driv., Pb with outb, outw... Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Turbo FreeBSD CD Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thomas David Rivers Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 05:48:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: sendmail without DNS (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2).) > > As I mentioned before, and should have mentioned again when I moved it to > -hackers, that still does not prevent sendmail from trying to use DNS in > all cases. I've tried it. Quite a bit. > > I have tried nocanonify, nodns, a service.switch file and perhaps a few > other things that I can't remember right now, but sendmail still tries to > do DNS lookups. The last time this discussion came through the conclusion > was that the only way to change this was to recompile sendmail. AFAIK, > that is still the case. My experience exactly! If you read the sendmail documentation; you'll find a statement to that effect... It was previously claimed that nocanonify and nodns together would cause sendmail to not use DNS; but it didn't work for me either. I had to recompile sendmail to not use DNS... I did investigate what it took to run DNS; but it quickly degraded into a mess for me - my machine wants to participate in 3 different domains at the same time, and reading the DNS/BIND book on how to do this left me without a solution... I'd suggest recompiling :-) - Dave Rivers - > > On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Mark Diekhans wrote: > > > >[moved to -hackers from security. It started with a discussion of > > >sendmail with uucp; I stated that sendmail still tries to use DNS no > > >matter how you configure it and you have to recompile it to make it stop.] > > > > > >On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Robert Shady wrote: > > > > > >> > Incorrect. It RUNS without DNS but still TRIES to use it. If you really > > >> > don't have IP connectivity, then difference doesn't matter because it > > >> > still works when the lookup fails, however it still does try and the > > >> > difference does matter if you have partial IP connectivity. I have a > > >> > system setup with nocanonify and all the other config file tweaks I know > > >> > of, and it still tries to use DNS as a tcpdump shows quite clearly. This > > >> > system is running 8.7.5, so things may have been changed in more recent > > >> > versions but I can't say for sure; if this has changed in more recent > > >> > versions, please let me know. > > >> > > > >> > I _think_ the define that needs to be set to 0 is NAMED_BIND, but don't > > >> > recall for sure. This has been gone over before on the lists. > > > > I disabled the use of DNS by sendmail by adding the file /etc/service.switch > > containing the line: > > > > hosts files > > > > ------------------------------ From: Greg Lehey Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:35:24 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: aic0 (/dev/rst0) problem Terry Lambert writes: >> # tar cvf /dev/rst0 / >> ^C^Cst0: not ready (after a while) >> >> Is there anything special to that HP DAT drive? Blocksize which the driver >> cannot cope with? Compression on/off? I believe the driver is working in >> polled modes, at least not DMA driven. The board doesn't have busmaster >> DMA logic and the motherboard DMA doesn't seem (yet) implemented in the >> driver. > > Unless you set a dipswitch, it won't work with "audio DAT Tapes"; HP > is the first drive that whines about them. 8-(. Early 35470As didn't complain either. I don't have a functional one at the moment, but I recollect that I got a different error with this one (in fact, it was an old HP DDS tape that wasn't coded either :-). My current drive is a C1533, and it seems to handle the tape with no problems, so I can't check the message. Greg ------------------------------ From: Greg Lehey Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:29:12 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: aic0 (/dev/rst0) problem Christoph Kukulies writes: > > After a hard time getting two WD8013EPC cards working in my router box > with the aic0 driver/card present (had to wire the cards to different > ports/irqs/iomem) I'm still having problems getting the tape > working: > > FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT #0: Mon Nov 18 13:52:01 MET 1996 > kuku@bach.physik.rwth-aachen.de:/usr/src/sys/compile/CGATE > Calibrating clock(s) relative to mc146818A clock... > i8254 clock: 1193402 Hz > CPU: i486DX (486-class CPU) #it's an Amd 486/40 CPU > real memory = 8650752 (8448K bytes) > avail memory = 6881280 (6720K bytes) > Probing for devices on the ISA bus: > sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard > sc0: MDA/hercules <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> # Hercules(!) > ed0 at 0x200-0x21f irq 4 maddr 0xd0000 msize 16384 on isa # having this at > ed0: address 00:00:c0:fe:34:0a, type WD8013EPC (16 bit) # 0x300 made the > ed1 at 0x280-0x29f irq 3 maddr 0xd8000 msize 16384 on isa # card defunct > ed1: address 00:00:c0:10:1b:1e, type WD8013EPC (16 bit) > lpt0 at 0x3bc-0x3c3 irq 7 on isa > lpt0: Interrupt-driven port > lp0: TCP/IP capable interface > aic0 at 0x340-0x35f irq 11 on isa > (aic0:3:0): "HP HP35470A T503" type 1 removable SCSI 2 > st0(aic0:3:0): Sequential-Access density code 0x13, variable blocks, write-enabled > fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa > fdc0: NEC 765 > fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in > fd1: 1.2MB 5.25in > wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 on isa > wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): > wd0: 81MB (166770 sectors), 981 cyls, 10 heads, 17 S/T, 512 B/S > npx0 on motherboard > npx0: INT 16 interface > st0(aic0:3:0): timed out # <<<< This is the result of a tar cvf /dev/rst0 / > st0(aic0:3:0): timed out > > And the system hangs at the tar command: > > # tar cvf /dev/rst0 / > ^C^Cst0: not ready (after a while) > > Is there anything special to that HP DAT drive? Yes. It has an MTBF of six months :-( > Blocksize which the driver cannot cope with? Compression on/off? I > believe the driver is working in polled modes, at least not DMA > driven. The board doesn't have busmaster DMA logic and the > motherboard DMA doesn't seem (yet) implemented in the driver. No problems there, but maybe the drive is really dead? When the tape is inserted, both of the LEDs should be continuous green (i.e. no flashing). It should handle any block size, but I've found that 64 kB (i.e. 128 blocks) gives best performance. Greg ------------------------------ From: Greg Lehey Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:24:23 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: AH2940 complains about disk geometry Daniel O'Callaghan writes: > > Hi, > > I just pulled a Conner CFP4207S 4.2 GB hdd out of a machine with a > Adaptec 1542CF and put it in one with an Adaptec 2940. On bootup, the > 2940 complained about the partitioning geometry 4096/64/16 not being > compatible with booting or something, and it should be 1024/255/16. > This message is followed by a 'Press any key to boot' message. > The 2940 is in a production machine, so I could not leave the disk in > there regardless, in case an unattended reboot was needed. > > I had a look in the Adaptec BIOS menus for ignoring that check, and I had > a quick attempt to change the disk partitioning, but both failed. > > Can anyone tell me how to fix the disk or the adaptor, please. Here's what I have: === root@freebie (/dev/ttyp2) /src/cvs-cur/2500 28 -> disklabel -r sd2 # /dev/rsd2c: type: SCSI disk: CFP4207S label: flags: bytes/sector: 512 sectors/track: 104 tracks/cylinder: 20 sectors/cylinder: 2080 cylinders: 3998 sectors/unit: 8317919 rpm: 7200 interleave: 1 trackskew: 0 cylinderskew: 0 headswitch: 0 # milliseconds track-to-track seek: 0 # milliseconds drivedata: 0 8 partitions: # size offset fstype [fsize bsize bps/cpg] c: 8317919 0 unused 0 0 # (Cyl. 0 - 3998*) h: 8317919 0 4.2BSD 512 4096 0 # (Cyl. 0 - 3998*) This is currently running under a 1542B, but it was on a 2940 before. You should disable DOS translation, or whatever they call it. Greg ------------------------------ From: Greg Lehey Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:16:57 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: cdrom boot? J Wunsch writes: > As J.J.Ming wrote: > >> Is it current boot from cdrom ? > > Nobody ever came round who was really interested in persuing this. I think it's about time that the FreeBSD core team began paying some attention to the things which will gain acceptability of FreeBSD when compared to other free UNIXes. These include CD-ROM booting (which should be straightforward) and smooth support for ATAPI CD-ROMs (which apparently isn't). There's an article about CD-ROM booting in the current c't (December 1996), page 72. It starts with the promis "Sysadmins of Unix systems or Macintoshes have known about it for a long time. You don't need floppies to install a new operating system on a hard disk, just a CD-ROM". In summary, it says: - - There's a new substandard on top of ISO 9660, El Torito (that's where they hacked out the scheme :-) - - More and more motherboard BIOSes support El Torito, as do a number of SCSI host adapters. I built two machines yesterday, and both the (useless) host adapter and the motherboard BIOS support it. - - The specs and a cookbook for making bootable CD-ROMs are available in Adobe Acrobat format (whatever that may be) from a link in http://www.ptltd.com/techs/specs.html. Maybe somebody can convert them to PostScript for the rest of us to look at. - - There's also a document on making bootable CD-ROMs on http://mail.ncku.edu.tw/~thlx/bootcd.htm. J=F6rg, aren't you the right person to integrate this stuff? Greg ------------------------------ From: Christoph Kukulies Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:56:34 +0100 Subject: 2.2-ALPHA data point - positive I had a router outage half an hour ago (FreeBSD acts as a router). The hard disk power cable got flakey thus resulting in a totally damaged FS. I decided to reinstall from 2.2-ALPHA and was up in 20 minutes again (Minimum system, 65 MB /, 21 MB swap, 8MB RAM, 486DX40 AMD, hercules graphic card, 2 WD8013EPC 16bit). Big applause for the current install. - --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de ------------------------------ From: Adam David Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:53:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: split speed sio port? > Adam David stands accused of saying: > > > > Will FreeBSD allow this scenario currently? :) > > (I know, I know. Try it and see ;) Mike Smith says: > Why do people keep trying to do bandwidth-throttling with hardware? It's > far too much of a pain in the backside! > > Use the spiffo 'divert socket' stuff and write a management program that > tracks how much data it has forwarded for each of the classes in a given > period. This gives you total flexibility, and saves us from trying to > second-guess harebrained ideas 8) This is all very well, but when upstream is not (yet?) willing to implement such measures themselves and will not trust software that is located outside of their direct control, one has to make do with what is available. Of course, a proven product might catch their interest in terms of suitability. - -- Adam David ------------------------------ From: Khetan Gajjar Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:21:16 +0200 (SAT) Subject: Re: aic0 (/dev/rst0) problem On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, Christoph Kukulies wrote: >I hope not you are trying to create a tar archive on you CD-ROM drive :-) No, definitely not (so no, I wasn't that drunk :-> ) >At which operation exactly does it 'hang'? Any thing which would affect the CD-ROM. I'd try and mount it after a clean boot, and it would hang. I could then not recover that session. If I logged in on another vc, I would see that the mount process had been in a d-state, and a few minutes (literally) later, a kernel message would pop up saying device timed out (cd0). >I guess the AVA 1515 is the one with BIOS ROM and other circuitry >while mine (the AVA 1505) has no BIOS end decoding circuitry. The 1515 does have the bios rom - for all the good that it does. - --khg ------------------------------ From: root@deadline.snafu.de (Andreas S. Wetzel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:05:10 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: PnP in 2.1.6 and 2.2 In article , Tomas Klockar writes: > Does anyone know if the 2.1.6-RELEASE or 2.2-RELEASE will support=20 > initialazion of pnp cards. I have an old 486 which doesn't support pnp > My two pnp cards one 3c509 and one gravis ultrasound PnP pro need this. > On my network card I can turned off PnP but the gravis card doesn't have = > this=20 > feature. > Also does any of them support the gravis card so I can get some sound out= > of it. I'm currently having the same problem with a ISA PnP ISDN card and have hacked my kernel a little bit to have a basic PnP support. Although it does not very much until now, but recognize all installed PnP cards and give information about their resource usage and such, I think I could manage to extend this to a fully functional PnP support with some help maybe. You must know that I'm not very experienced about kernel hacking until now. For a fully working PnP support the driver had to modify kernel device tables etc I think. Regards, Mickey - -- (__) (@@) Andreas S. Wetzel E-mail: mickey@deadline.snafu.de /-------\/ Utrechter Strasse 41 Web: http://deadline.snafu.de/ / | || 13347 Berlin Fon: <+4930> 456 066 90 * ||----|| Germany Fax: <+4930> 456 066 91/92 ~~ ~~ ------------------------------ From: Emmanuel Duros Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:27:49 +0100 (MET) Subject: Creating a device driv., Pb with outb, outw... Hi, I am going to write a device driver for a communication card which is a receive-only interface for satellite links. First, I would like to write a peace of code outside the kernel (in user context) that would intialize the adapter with a sequence of outb functions to the correct interface address. With a very simple program such as: #include void main(void){ outb( 0x300, 1 ); } I always get a BUS ERROR. I also tried on the parallel port (0x378) without success. Any comments on this, why does this happen ? I am using FreeBSD 2.2-961006-SNAP and I noticed there is no man on these functions or on any low level functions, is this normal ? Could you also reply to my personal Email ? Thanks... Emmanuel ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:14:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > I'm aware that people will want to scream, but I _do_ believe that we > should take some steps towards incorporating perl in the base system, > as we have done (successfully, and IMHO very usefully) with Tcl. [ ... ] > - a contrib-ready Perl, at release quality. ie., not the 'patch de jour' > but the equivalent of a -STABLE version. > > - an undertaking from several to keep an eye on Perl development, and > update the in-contrib Perl as appropriate. This is the rub. PERL is not stable over the release cycle period for FreeBSD. People are *always* complaining "why don't you upgrade your PERL?", even when it it well known that an upgrade frequently requires updating all of the PERL-dependent scripts to the new syntax, since the syntax is not sufficiently stable. For FreeBSD, the biggest problem is PERL dependent ports and MajorDomo; PERL upgrades have been delayed for MajorDomo more than once in the past. > A point to consider : I _loathe_ Perl. Reading it gives me a > headache, and I would sooner snort powdered lithium than program in > it. Understand that I think Perl is relevant for what it is, and not > what I feel about it. At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Wilko Bulte Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:38:36 +0100 (MET) Subject: Turbo FreeBSD CD Hi there, I just today got a catalog in my PObox of Pacific HighTech CDROM. A bit to my surprise it has a 'Turbo FreeBSD' CDROM listed on it's cover. I contains 2.1.5R and a 2.2 SNAP (960801? it's very fine print). Comments? Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Chris Timmons Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 11:28:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Well the great thing about FreeBSD is that it's FREE... so anybody can put it on a CD and sell it. My preference has always been to buy from Walnut Creek CDROM because they support the project. I personally subscribe to both the -RELEASE and - -SNAP cd distributions and have had excellent experience dealing with the Walnut Creek people on the phone. Since we rely heavily on FreeBSD at work, I spec Walnut Creek as the CD-ROM of choice there as well. Thanks WC!!! - -Chris On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Wilko Bulte wrote: > Hi there, > > I just today got a catalog in my PObox of Pacific HighTech CDROM. > A bit to my surprise it has a 'Turbo FreeBSD' CDROM listed on it's > cover. I contains 2.1.5R and a 2.2 SNAP (960801? it's very > fine print). > > Comments? > > Wilko > _ ____________________________________________________________________ > | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands > |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ From: Joe Greco Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:31:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD > Hi there, > > I just today got a catalog in my PObox of Pacific HighTech CDROM. > A bit to my surprise it has a 'Turbo FreeBSD' CDROM listed on it's > cover. I contains 2.1.5R and a 2.2 SNAP (960801? it's very > fine print). > > Comments? "Behind the times" mean anything to ya? :-) Now I know why I tell folks to buy from WC. ... JG ------------------------------ From: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:33:50 -0600 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Terry Lambert writes: > > I'm aware that people will want to scream, but I _do_ believe that we > > should take some steps towards incorporating perl in the base system, > > as we have done (successfully, and IMHO very usefully) with Tcl. > > [ ... ] > > > - a contrib-ready Perl, at release quality. ie., not the 'patch de jour' > > but the equivalent of a -STABLE version. > > > > - an undertaking from several to keep an eye on Perl development, and > > update the in-contrib Perl as appropriate. > > This is the rub. PERL is not stable over the release cycle period for > FreeBSD. People are *always* complaining "why don't you upgrade your > PERL?", even when it it well known that an upgrade frequently requires > updating all of the PERL-dependent scripts to the new syntax, since > the syntax is not sufficiently stable. I take exception to this. The only syntax changes were from perl4 -> perl5, and were extremely minor. (actually syntax cleanup, to be pedantic). There haven't been any syntax changes internal to the p5 releases, unless you count the addition of new features. Also, the "official" release version is still 5.003, nevermind that the development version of _08 is coming out this week or the next. - -- Jonathan > At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). Really? Then, are my lithium batteries pressurized, or are they bound in a molecule that changes their properties? (eh, physics was not my strong suit) ------------------------------ From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 20:06:45 +0100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! According to Michael Smith: > - a contrib-ready Perl, at release quality. ie., not the 'patch de jour' > but the equivalent of a -STABLE version. Perl 5.004 is rounding the corner. 5.003_08 just came out and 5.003_09 will be 5.004-candidate. Many thinks are broken (even if people don't tumble often on them) and 5.004 should be stable. > - an undertaking from several to keep an eye on Perl development, and > update the in-contrib Perl as appropriate. I'm keeping eyes on main Perl dev. thru perl5-porters as probably others do. As for modules, we have a Perl5-port guru :-) BTW OpenBSD has already done the integration into a bmake-based tree so we could look at how they've done it. - -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #28: Sun Nov 10 13:37:41 MET 1996 ------------------------------ From: nik@blueberry.co.uk (Nik Clayton) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:49:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Terry Lambert writes: > This is the rub. PERL is not stable over the release cycle period for > FreeBSD. People are *always* complaining "why don't you upgrade your > PERL?", even when it it well known that an upgrade frequently requires > updating all of the PERL-dependent scripts to the new syntax, since > the syntax is not sufficiently stable. As someone who spends a reasonable amount of the working day coding in Perl, I don't think this is a particularly valid point, particularly in comparison to the moving target that is Tcl/Tk. In the past four years Perl 4.036 (/usr/bin/perl on 2.1.5 and below) has been the standard, rock-solid version on the 4.branch, while 5.0 was the new, OO biased version. Even given that, the changes from 5.000 to 5.003 have been bug fixes, with very few alterations to syntax at all. There is an issue moving from 4.036 to 5.x, as the syntax did change in a few places between the two -- not counting the option of a new OOish syntax, which wouldn't break older scripts anyway. Most obviously where '@' in strings suddenly needed to backslash-escaped. This broke a lot of things that dealt with e-mail addresses. But in the past 2 years (and 2 years ago I was running FreeBSD 2.0 with Perl 5.mumble) I haven't seen any clean Perl code that would run on 5.000 but wouldn't run on 5.003. Not much in the way of hard facts there, but this seems to be an opinion only thread anyway. Having said that, I don't think Perl should be moved to the base system anyway (assuming that base system is whatever you get when you install bin.xx for the first time). But this is for the same reason I don't particularly want tcl in there either -- they're extensions to the system -- I have no objections to seeing a new dist category, something like 'cool-things-we-think-you'll-enjoy', but I tend to prefer to build these things myself. Of course, if that is what we're talking about then you can ignore that last paragraph :-) N - -- - --+=[ Blueberry Hill Blueberry New Media ]=+-- - --+=[ http://www.blueberry.co.uk/ 1/9 Chelsea Harbour Design Centre, ]=+-- - --+=[ WebMaster@blueberry.co.uk London, England, SW10 0XE ]=+-- - --+=[ Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket? ]ENTP ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1656 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 13:24:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12788 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA12739 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA02399 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:22:58 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199611242122.QAA02399@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: looking for an idea To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:22:57 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Okay, here's a small problem: you have two processes, A and B, running on the same machine. Process A is a server and B is a client. A and B communicate via an AF_UNIX socket. B contacts A and sends it a message, which includes B's UID, however there is the possibility that B may lie about its identity, so A would like very much to be able to learn the UID of B without any possibility of deception on B's part. Now, the problem is to find a way for A to verify B's UID without resorting to grovelling in /dev/kmem. This is necessary since A would need privileges to open /dev/kmem, and A and B might not be run by privileged users. The specific problem I'm trying to solve here has to do with keyserv(8) from the Secure RPC distribution. The original way this problem was 'solved' by Sun in RPCSRC 4.0 was to use a program called keyenvoy(8). The keyserv daemon would refuse any connections from clients which a) did not originate on a port >= IPPORT_RESERVED and b) did not originate from INADDR_LOOPBACK. Meanwhile, the keyenvoy program was suid-root, and would be exec()ed as part of the key_call() procedure in the RPC library. The keyenvoy program would do a getuid() to learn the real UID of the caller and pass this on to keyserv. Keyserv would accept the supplied UID as valid since, supposedly, only keyenvoy could have sent the message and the caller could not coerce keyenvoy into lying. This approach is flawed mainly because RPC 4.0 only supports IP-based transports (tcp and udp) which can be spoofed: although keyserv may be able to determine that it received a request from 127.0.0.1, it can't be sure that the request really arrived via the loopback interface (unless it performs some system-dependent mucking about inside kernel memory). Also, keyenvoy is invoked using vfork()/exec() which results in a performance hit for processes that need to make many calls to keyserv. (Aside: if you're thinking of suggesting that I use identd, forget it. Maybe Linux developers would be satisfied with that; I'm not.) In TI-RPC, which is what's in Slowlaris 2.x, this problem was solved in a different way by taking advantage of the fact that the underlying code now uses STREAMS/TLI rather than sockets. There is apparently some way when using the loopback transport for keyserv to learn the UID of the process on the other side of the TLI endpoint. Duplicating this in BSD is hard. One thing I've done is to implement a third transport for the RPC library called "unix" which uses AF_UNIX stream sockets rather than AF_INET sockets. (This can be done pretty easily just by copying the clnt_tcp.c and svc_tcp.c modules and making some relatively minor changes.) When keyserv starts, it now creates three transport handles: one for tcp, one for udp and one for unix. Creating the unix transport also creates a socket special file called /var/run/keyservsock, which is owned by root and mode 000. The keyenvoy program uses this socket to communicate witht he server. The keyserv program can get the sockaddr structure for the connection and check the family type: if it's AF_UNIX, the connection is local and can be trusted; if it's AF_INET, the server logs a message and discards the request. This makes the keyenvoy mechanism work as intended: IP spoofing is no longer an issue, and local users _must_ use keyenvoy to contact keyserv. However I want to eliminate keyenvoy entirely. When the mechanism I have now, it's possible for processes with UID 0 to bypass keyenvoy and contact keyserv directly. This means that system servers that require AUTH_DES authentication (like, say, rpc.nisd) can avoid the performance hit, but unprivileged client programs are still forced to use keyenvoy. So far I've only found one potential solution to this problem, but it's not pretty. It occured to me that if process A can learn the PID of process B, then it can map that into a UID by examining the /proc filesystem (/proc//status). One way to do this is to use SysV IPC. If A creates a message queue, and B sends A a message with msgsnd() just before sending its usual RPC, then A can read the message and then do a msgctl(msgid, IPC_STAT, &mqid) and examine the mqid.msg_lspid member, which should tell it the PID of the last process to call msgsnd() on this particular message queue. This, in concert with /proc//status gets you the UID. (This can also be embedded in the RPC library and keyserv code so that it's invisible to the user.) But this will only work if PROCFS and SysV IPC are configured into the kernel and /proc is mounted. Its also possible that there may be a race condition involved (maybe I could solve that with a semaphore -- Gaaahhh!!). Previously, I also experimented with sending a file descriptor over the AF_UNIX socket from the client to the server using sendmsg()/revcmsg(), but this doesn't provide any useful (i.e. trustworthy) information either. I thought about having the client do an fcntl(s, F_SETOWN, getpid()) on the descriptor and then passing it to the server, which could then read the PID back with fcntl(s, F_GETOWN, 0), but this doesn't work because fcntl() basically allows you to specify any number as a PID. Of course, it's possible to hack the kernel such that it will copy the UID of the sending process into the message somewhere if you supply the right flag, but I'd like to avoid that; having the code fail on other *BSD systems would be bad. So: I'm open to suggestions. Is there any nice and easy way for a server process on one side of an AF_UNIX socket to learn the UID of the process on the other side? I really want to toss keyenvoy in the dumper. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "If you're ever in trouble, go to the CTR. Ask for Bill. He will help you." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 13:53:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA13859 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:53:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA13849; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06850; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:53:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:53:19 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Charles Henrich , hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stereo RealAudio for FreeBSD! In-Reply-To: <199611240820.DAA00385@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, John S. Dyson wrote: > I have been trying to find any major negative artifacts using mpeg at 384 > and really can't find any (sounds really good.) I hope you aren't "looking" using the analog output of a typical (read: crappy) sound card. :) -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 13:57:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA14054 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14049 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA05204; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:55:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611242155.NAA05204@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Kent Vander Velden cc: Tom Samplonius , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: ping and freebsd crashes In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:52:10 CST." <9611241952.AA18700@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:55:54 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> > How much memory does the test machine have in it? >>> >>> 20M and used for very little. There is not really a load on it. >> >> Are you using a non-GENERIC kernel? If so, do you have BOUNCE_BUFFERS >>compiled in? If so, this is your problem. Apparently the lance ethernet >>cards use DMA, and if you have more than 16MB and no bounce buffers, the >>card could be overwriting all kinds of thing in main memory, including >>file buffers (which would explain disk corruption). >> > > Is a non-generic kernel it is one that has been customized then, yes I >am using a non-generic kernel. It does have BOUNCE_BUFFERS enabled >which I did to use the 20M and the 1542 in the machine. > > I am confused by your statement above. You seem to say that if >BOUNCE_BUFFERS are enabled then this is a problem but describe a problem >that happens when they are not enabled. Should I get a different >ethernet card, remove memory or does someone have another suggestion? The lance driver does not support bounce buffers. If it should for some reason allocate memory above 16MB, you will lose. It's very likely that this is the cause of your problems. The reason that it is tickled by promiscuous mode is because the received traffic is much higher and uses more buffers. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 15:17:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA18504 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA18469 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:17:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vRnmx-0021UqC; Sun, 24 Nov 96 18:16 EST Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA06615; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:23:02 -0600 From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <199611242323.RAA06615@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:23:02 -0600 (CST) Cc: peter@taronga.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <2872.848861218@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 24, 96 10:46:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Remove sendmail. Make it an option. Make qmail the primary mail transport > > agent on FreeBSD. If someone needs a really complex mail routing environment > Needless to say, this is a terrible idea. Why? sendmail will *never* be secure. You already have sysinstall options to load the pcnfs and apache ports, why not have another question. Something like: "Sendmail is a large, complex mail transport mechanism. Qmail is small, tight, and designed to be secure. Qmail provides most of the functionality of sendmail. Which mail transport should be installed by default?" For people who know what sendmail is, then they know enough to answer the question. For people who don't, well, qmail is a lot easier to understand than sendmail starting out fresh... > The user QA alone would murder us. You ever tried to explain to someone how to set up a virtual domain in sendmail? From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 16:07:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA21723 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:07:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA21714 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA25958; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:36:58 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611250006.KAA25958@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-Reply-To: <199611242323.RAA06615@bonkers.taronga.com> from Peter da Silva at "Nov 24, 96 05:23:02 pm" To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:36:57 +1030 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter da Silva stands accused of saying: > Why? sendmail will *never* be secure. You already have sysinstall options > to load the pcnfs and apache ports, why not have another question. Something > like: > > "Sendmail is a large, complex mail transport mechanism. Qmail > is small, tight, and designed to be secure. Qmail provides > most of the functionality of sendmail. Which mail transport > should be installed by default?" "Sendmail is the de-facto Unix standard mail delivery agent. Is is continually subjected to rigorous security scrutiny and frequently updated. It provides advanced mail-handling features, and any unix system administrator will feel immediately at home with it. Qmail is an obscure mail delivery agent that is claimed to be secure. Nobody much uses it, and it is not scrutinised in anything like as much detail. If you have problems with it, you're likely to have trouble finding competent local support. Which foot would you like to shoot?" Sure, Qmail may well be the best thing since sliced bread. But making it the standard FreeBSD mail utility will achieve two things : - expose a pile of security holes that the Qmail developer(s) never thought existed. - make FreeBSD the laughing stock of the unix community. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 16:17:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA22053 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from central.picker.com (central.picker.com [144.54.31.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22046 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:17:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ct.picker.com by central.picker.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0vRoaD-0004riC; Sun, 24 Nov 96 19:07 EST Received: from elmer.ct.picker.com ([144.54.57.34]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04784; Sun, 24 Nov 96 19:04:55 EST Received: by elmer.ct.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA05733; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:37:46 -0500 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:37:46 -0500 From: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: suidperl (v5.003) - Doesn't work, Any Tips? X-Mailer: Mutt 0.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a really simple setuid script that used to work with the perl 5.001 port. I recently upgraded to 2.2-ALPHA and the 5.003 port, and it stopped working: #!/usr/local/bin/suidperl -w $ENV{'PATH'} = '/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin'; exec( "/sbin/mount /zip" ); It just dumps out without any errors at all. The last few lines of ktrace output are: 6816 ktrace CALL execve(0xefbfd0b8,0xefbfd518,0xefbfd520) 6816 ktrace NAMI "./mountzip" 6816 ktrace NAMI "/usr/local/bin/suidperl" Thumbing the mail archives did reveal suidperl 4.x in /usr/bin, which works fine. But I'm curious as to why suidperl 5.003 didn't work. Is this a config problem on my system? Or is the port busted. Thanks, Randall From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 16:20:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA22125 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA22108 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA26016; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:49:19 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611250019.KAA26016@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: rarpd In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Nov 23, 96 11:41:00 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:49:18 +1030 (CST) Cc: fenner@parc.xerox.com, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > OK. The host.conf problem was the problem. I'm now getting RPC > timeouts on the thing I'm trying to boot because I'm not running > portmapper or bootparamd. Go figure :-). At least RARP is out of the > way now. There's an error in the bootparamd manpage that will have you tearing your hair out; the paths returned need to be in the form 'root=host:/path', not 'root=/path'. I have a patch for this to commit as soon as I can get a connection to freefall. It would be good perhaps to add some more debugging to bootparamd, but the code is _awful_. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 16:22:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA22377 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA22353 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:22:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id SAA13671; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:03:29 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611250003.SAA13671@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:03:29 -0600 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611242323.RAA06615@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Peter da Silva" at Nov 24, 96 05:23:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Needless to say, this is a terrible idea. > > Why? sendmail will *never* be secure. You already have sysinstall options > to load the pcnfs and apache ports, why not have another question. Something > like: > > "Sendmail is a large, complex mail transport mechanism. Qmail > is small, tight, and designed to be secure. Qmail provides > most of the functionality of sendmail. Which mail transport > should be installed by default?" > > For people who know what sendmail is, then they know enough to answer > the question. For people who don't, well, qmail is a lot easier to > understand than sendmail starting out fresh... While I agree with Jordan's assessment that you are sniffing glue, I WOULD agree that it might be reasonable to change the Sendmail bias in /etc/sysconfig (etc) to be more generalized, like the way the gated/routed switch is currently handled. One can simply install the qmail port (I assume there is one!) and then toggle a few bits. > > The user QA alone would murder us. > > You ever tried to explain to someone how to set up a virtual domain > in sendmail? Yes, and these days, Sendmail supports it out of the box. I do not know if FreeBSD's .mc file enables the features by default or not, I always gen my own .cf files. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 16:28:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA22653 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:28:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA22648 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id KAA26057; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:56:22 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611250026.KAA26057@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In-Reply-To: from Michael Hancock at "Nov 22, 96 07:18:41 pm" To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:56:21 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, nate@mt.sri.com, gclarkii@main.gbdata.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Hancock stands accused of saying: > > Python is more useful to me than Perl. I'd rather see Python go into the > base than Perl. Python has less bloat, is a prettier language, is > stable, and stress-tested (see infoseek). You're the first person to ask for Python in the base system. There have been hundreds of feet on the Perl road over the last year or so. Supply and demand, I guess you could say. > Of course, we don't want to have a base w/o a Java VM too. Everyone else > has plans to include one. *shrug* If Java really takes off, rather than becoming the next interpreted COBOL, and a decent interpreter comes along, then it would be remiss of us not to dump the compiler and all our other interpreters and... No, wait, that's Solaris. > Mike -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 16:35:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23005 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22992 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vRp0r-0021WNC; Sun, 24 Nov 96 19:35 EST Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA08169 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:41:54 -0600 From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <199611250041.SAA08169@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:41:53 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199611250006.KAA25958@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Nov 25, 96 10:36:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > "Sendmail is the de-facto Unix standard mail delivery agent. Is is > continually subjected to rigorous security scrutiny and frequently > updated. Don't make me laugh. It has more security holes revealed per year than every other setuid program in UNIX put together. > - expose a pile of security holes that the Qmail developer(s) never > thought existed. Have you looked at qmail? The bits exposed to the outside world don't even run as root. EVER. > - make FreeBSD the laughing stock of the unix community. The part of the UNIX community that doesn't care about security, anyway. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 16:41:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23304 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.217.135]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA23290 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:40:59 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA03069; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:40:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:35:52 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1657 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611241940_MC1-BC4-D2F4@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from smyrno.sol.net (smyrno.sol.net [206.55.64.117]) by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA02752; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:13:07 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by smyrno.sol.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA17569; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:01:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14692 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:22:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:22:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611192322.PAA14692@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1657 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Tuesday, 19 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1657 In this issue: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Kernel calls - args in registers Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Ipx to ip routing Re: Announce: Alternative Mail Archive Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Creating a device driv., Pb with outb, outw... Re: Kernel calls - args in registers Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paul Richards Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 20:10:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In reply to Jonathan Lemon who said > > > This is the rub. PERL is not stable over the release cycle period for > > FreeBSD. People are *always* complaining "why don't you upgrade your > > PERL?", even when it it well known that an upgrade frequently requires > > updating all of the PERL-dependent scripts to the new syntax, since > > the syntax is not sufficiently stable. > > I take exception to this. The only syntax changes were from perl4 -> perl5, > and were extremely minor. (actually syntax cleanup, to be pedantic). There > haven't been any syntax changes internal to the p5 releases, unless you count > the addition of new features. The converse is infact generally true. You can run perl4 scripts under perl5 with very minor changes. Most perl5 scripts have no chance of being back-ported to perl4. Things have changed a lot. Unless you're writing very basic scripts you're going to be using all the new features like dereferencing, new C-like function syntax, prototypes (well actually that's a 5.003 thing) and objects. It's almost certainly the case that you're going to be making heavy use of modules too. Really, perl4 is a dead language. - -- Paul Richards, Originative Solutions Ltd. Internet: paul@netcraft.co.uk, http://www.netcraft.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 1225 447500 (work) ------------------------------ From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:28:31 -0700 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In message <199611191814.LAA09210@phaeton.artisoft.com> Terry Lambert writes: : At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). At STP (20 C, 1 atmosphere), Lithium is a whitish metal solid. Warner ------------------------------ From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:31:46 -0700 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In message <199611191933.TAA26518@right.PCS> Jonathan Lemon writes: : > At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). : : Really? Then, are my lithium batteries pressurized, or are they bound in a : molecule that changes their properties? (eh, physics was not my strong suit) Lithium batteries are made of a Lithium compound, which is likely disolved in ion form in some liquid or pseduo liquid to allow for the chemical reaction (Ion exchange) that gives them their power. This is glossing over a lot of details... Warner ------------------------------ From: Richard Wackerbarth Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:35:55 -0600 Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD >"Behind the times" mean anything to ya? :-) > >Now I know why I tell folks to buy from WC. I suggest that you look at the WC catalog before you jump to conclusions. Their catalog does not always reflect the latest release either. (Even after they have shipped it) ------------------------------ From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:07:59 +0100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! According to Terry Lambert: > FreeBSD. People are *always* complaining "why don't you upgrade your > PERL?", even when it it well known that an upgrade frequently requires > updating all of the PERL-dependent scripts to the new syntax, since > the syntax is not sufficiently stable. Between Perl4 and Perl5, the changes are documented in perltrap. Between 5.x there have been very few syntaxic changes. You won't notice many changes between 5.003 and 5.004 in that respect. > For FreeBSD, the biggest problem is PERL dependent ports and MajorDomo; > PERL upgrades have been delayed for MajorDomo more than once in the > past. Majordomo has been Perl5 compatible as of 1.93. 1.94 runs fine under it. - -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #28: Sun Nov 10 13:37:41 MET 1996 ------------------------------ From: Joe Greco Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:02:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD > >"Behind the times" mean anything to ya? :-) > > > >Now I know why I tell folks to buy from WC. > > I suggest that you look at the WC catalog before you jump to conclusions. > Their catalog does not always reflect the latest release either. (Even > after they have shipped it) No, but usually WC ships you the latest release. ... JG ------------------------------ From: Travis Hassloch x231 Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:06:53 -0600 Subject: Kernel calls - args in registers In message <199610231240.MAA05218@orchard.medford.ma.us> you write: > of course, if you're going to pass syscall arguments in registers (and > do the syscall.c-equivalent in hand-massaged assembler) you might find > that you'll get a bigger *system* performance gain (at least on "CISC" > systems like the i386 and m68k) by using a more RISC-like calling > convention with the first few arguments in registers.. I've been looking at this a bit lately, and noticed that, as you point out, gcc doesn't use registers on the x86 by default (IMHO it should have, at least if you can configure that for free Unixes -- it's not like we had a historical baggage commercial compiler to be call-level compatible with). One thing I thought might make a worthwhile gain is to make all intrakernel calls use registers -- and if possible, all kernel calls. Obviously this would require rewriting a bit of the system call dispatch code. The next obvious step would be to change the system call structure so that copying a stack around wasn't necessary on most system calls. I'm thinking it may screw up LKMs, possibly other things; someone a bit more experienced could probably run through the implications better than I. CC'ed to tech-kern and hackers. ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:00:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > > FreeBSD. People are *always* complaining "why don't you upgrade your > > PERL?", even when it it well known that an upgrade frequently requires > > updating all of the PERL-dependent scripts to the new syntax, since > > the syntax is not sufficiently stable. > > Between Perl4 and Perl5, the changes are documented in perltrap. Between > 5.x there have been very few syntaxic changes. You won't notice many > changes between 5.003 and 5.004 in that respect. I realize this. However, it requires going over your existing PERL code to make sure it doesn't break from the syntactical changes. The problem is the dependencies for the existing code, and that fact that if the maintainers of the code haven't "upgraded", then we become promary support for the "upgraded" scripts. This would have been less of a problem in the 5.x changeover if the PERL distribution had a tool to upgrade scripts over the syntactic changes. > > For FreeBSD, the biggest problem is PERL dependent ports and MajorDomo; > > PERL upgrades have been delayed for MajorDomo more than once in the > > past. > > Majordomo has been Perl5 compatible as of 1.93. 1.94 runs fine under it. What was the delay between when people started saying we should upgrade to PERL 5.x and the release of MajorDomo 1.93? The problem, again, is that the change cycle on PERL has historically been too short to base a FreeBSD release on a PERL release... PERL is moving faster than FreeBSD, in other words. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:01:19 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > In message <199611191814.LAA09210@phaeton.artisoft.com> Terry Lambert writes: > : At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). > > At STP (20 C, 1 atmosphere), Lithium is a whitish metal solid. LiO2 or Li2? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Warner Losh Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:18:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In message <199611192101.OAA09538@phaeton.artisoft.com> Terry Lambert writes: : > At STP (20 C, 1 atmosphere), Lithium is a whitish metal solid. : : LiO2 or Li2? Li. Lithium doesn't form a molecule like Hydrogen unless heated to high temperatures. Lithiums melting point is around 30C and its boiling point is around 40C or 50C. It isn't until it boils off that you get Li2, a gas. I don't have my CRC handy to look up the actual values here, but this is what I recall from my college Chemestry labs. Li is violently reactive when exposed to anything, which is what makes Li+ Ion batteries so powerful (and so dangerous). Warner ------------------------------ From: Don Yuniskis Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:30:07 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD It seems that Richard Wackerbarth said: > > >"Behind the times" mean anything to ya? :-) > > > >Now I know why I tell folks to buy from WC. > > I suggest that you look at the WC catalog before you jump to conclusions. > Their catalog does not always reflect the latest release either. (Even > after they have shipped it) Yes, the 2.1.5R CD arrived with a catalog listing only the 2.1R disc! :> - --don ------------------------------ From: Chris Coleman Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:53:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ipx to ip routing I work at a local community college. We have two FreeBSD boxes running all of the internet services. My question is: Does Freebsd support ipx to ip routing. I know that BSDi does. (And they want $6,000 for their system because of it.) Do we have any plans for implementing it? We need it to solve two problems. number one, we are running out of ip addresses on campus. We want to eliminate most of them and make them use ipx routed through a FBSD box to communicate through the internet. And we want to eliminate the need for so many ip addresses so that we can get rid of all the ip address conflicts that we can't seem to trace down. Any one have a good method of finding an ip address conflict? Thanks in advance Chris Coleman (chris@aries.bb.cc.wa.us) Computer Support Technician I (509)-766-8873 Big Bend Community College Internet Instructor Death is life's way of telling you you're fired. ------------------------------ From: Joe Greco Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:07:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Announce: Alternative Mail Archive Hi, > First, browsing, as hypermail sets it up, is of very limited > utility for finding anything in list archives of FreeBSD scale > (currently about 300 megabytes and growing fast). Browsing is > much better suited as a second step after an initial search has > identified a few key messages. Using those keys, it is then > useful to retrieve the thread context. Being able to re-sort a > chunk of message by date, subject, author is useful, but only if > the searcher has control over what is in the chunk. Hypermail > just blindly chops things up into time segments and the chunk > composition is static. The proper place for chunk sorting is on > a set of retrieved messages. That is probably true, but (at least when I am searching the lists) I usually have some idea what time frame I am interested in. I am usually looking to quote something back at somebody, etc. It is very frustrating to type in a bunch of terms and still have it hit a hundred messages, half of which are from 1995. Often I would much rather just see a thread of messages, and look through them. A lengthy list, of course, is unmanageable and unwieldy, I was looking through the gated-people lists the other evening and swearing that it took five to ten seconds every time I read a message and then hit "Back" to return to the zillions of messages long list. > The problem is that good IR systems are proprietary, and free IR > systems are crap. Of course, I've spent quite a lot of time > reading and writing about IR theory, so I'm pretty cynical about > the whole field. (Since this is the direction of my Ph.D. > research, maybe it isn't such a good thing?) Write a good free IR system? :-) In general I am frustrated with the current search engine and often I would rather go to the raw list archives and search backwards for a keyword or two, because that way at least I am assured of getting the date relevance I usually desire. The size of the current list archives are rather hefty... 19954856 Nov 19 13:32 freebsd-bugs 15828458 Nov 4 14:26 freebsd-commit 34684292 Nov 19 11:47 freebsd-current 76949942 Nov 19 13:31 freebsd-hackers 6535669 Nov 19 11:25 freebsd-isp 14245498 Nov 19 12:50 freebsd-ports 72657153 Nov 19 13:07 freebsd-questions That is a LOT of data to look through, and dates back to early 1995.. ... JG ------------------------------ From: Wilko Bulte Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:20:36 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! As Terry Lambert wrote... > > A point to consider : I _loathe_ Perl. Reading it gives me a > > headache, and I would sooner snort powdered lithium than program in > > it. Understand that I think Perl is relevant for what it is, and not > > what I feel about it. > > At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). > > > Terry Lambert Interesting. Very soft greyish metal the last time I saw it... Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: J Wunsch Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:07:43 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Creating a device driv., Pb with outb, outw... As Emmanuel Duros wrote: > #include > > void main(void){ > > outb( 0x300, 1 ); > } > > I always get a BUS ERROR. I also tried on the parallel port (0x378) > without success. > > Any comments on this, why does this happen ? Because user programs are normally not allowed to fiddle with the hardware directly; that's the kernel's domain. You can circumvent this restriction by keeping a descriptor on the /dev/io ``security hole'' open. - -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:30:34 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Kernel calls - args in registers > > of course, if you're going to pass syscall arguments in registers (and > > do the syscall.c-equivalent in hand-massaged assembler) you might find > > that you'll get a bigger *system* performance gain (at least on "CISC" > > systems like the i386 and m68k) by using a more RISC-like calling > > convention with the first few arguments in registers.. > > I've been looking at this a bit lately, and noticed that, as you > point out, gcc doesn't use registers on the x86 by default (IMHO it should > have, at least if you can configure that for free Unixes -- it's not like we > had a historical baggage commercial compiler to be call-level compatible > with). What about processor emulation environments? For instance, running my NetScape binaries on an Alpha using a processor emulator that converts traps to native kernel calls? I think that in this situation, calling in registers would complicate (and in some cases, because of alignment, make nearly impossible) such cross-processor ABI emulation. I find it extremely unlikely that NetScape will be porting to BSD or Linux on a PowerMAC (for example) any time soon, and this ABI/processor hybridization is about the only way you will be able to use commercial apps on that platform. FWIW: I agree on intra-kernel calling; I'd go so far as to suggest using callee-pop conventions, in fact. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Hal Snyder Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:02:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing Chris Coleman wrote: > I work at a local community college. We have two FreeBSD boxes running > all of the internet services. > > My question is: Does Freebsd support ipx to ip routing. I know that BSDi > does. (And they want $6,000 for their system because of it.) > > Do we have any plans for implementing it? > > We need it to solve two problems. number one, we are running out of ip > addresses on campus. We want to eliminate most of them and make them use > ipx routed through a FBSD box to communicate through the internet. Huh? Where do you want your IPX traffic to go once it hits the router? > And we want to eliminate the need for so many ip addresses so that we > can get rid of all the ip address conflicts that we can't seem to trace > down. Why not just set up one or more proxy hosts between your local net and the Internet? It's a common way of a)conserving Internet addresses and b) protecting a LAN from the Internet. Your Internet IP addresses, which are in short supply, go on the perimeter net where you will only have a handful of interfaces. Then use the RFC 1918 addresses for the rest of your network. I like to use the 192.168.x.x addresses, using one Class C per segment. > Any one have a good method of finding an ip address conflict? Use arpwatch and/or tcpdump in arp mode. ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:38:50 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Jonathan Lemon stands accused of saying: > > I take exception to this. The only syntax changes were from perl4 -> perl5, > and were extremely minor. (actually syntax cleanup, to be pedantic). There > haven't been any syntax changes internal to the p5 releases, unless you count > the addition of new features. Fine. You realise by standing up and saying something about it you get nominated as a maintainer? 8) > Also, the "official" release version is still 5.003, nevermind that the > development version of _08 is coming out this week or the next. Ok; does this mean that new major release is imminent? What sort of 'product life' would you anticipate the the current 'stable' version has left? > > At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). > > Really? Then, are my lithium batteries pressurized, or are they > bound in a molecule that changes their properties? (eh, physics was > not my strong suit) Lithium batteries use salts of lithium. Lithium is not useful as a metal other than as fantasy material for teenage chemistry students who aren't happy with the curriculum's shockingly poor explosives content. (Yes, the ex-keeper of the rec.pyrotechnics FAQ lives in Adelaide, and I know him and several of his lunatic friends 8) Terry; I'd consider pressurising my head before snorting perhaps if you like; the net result would _still_ be comparable to my reaction to Perl 8) - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Tim Pierce Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:21:17 +0600 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > From: Terry Lambert > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:00:19 -0700 (MST) > > The problem, again, is that the change cycle on PERL has historically > been too short to base a FreeBSD release on a PERL release... PERL > is moving faster than FreeBSD, in other words. I don't believe this is the case, either. In the last two years, Perl has gone from 5.000 to almost 5.004, the same time frame in which FreeBSD has gone from pre-2.0 almost to 2.2-RELEASE. Do you really find the differences between Perl 5.000 and 5.004 to be *more* significant than those between FreeBSD 2.0 and 2.2-RELEASE? I don't get that impression; if anything, FreeBSD seems to be outstripping Perl in speed of development. ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1657 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 16:41:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23305 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:41:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.217.133]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA23291 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:41:01 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA15847; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:40:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:35:52 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1657 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611241940_MC1-BC4-D2F4@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1657 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: The requested item does not exist Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-19-96 07:13:00 PM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1657 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 17:07:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA25067 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:07:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA25044 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:07:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.3/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id BAA17202; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:05:33 GMT Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:05:32 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Michael Smith cc: nate@mt.sri.com, gclarkii@main.gbdata.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In-Reply-To: <199611250026.KAA26057@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > You're the first person to ask for Python in the base system. There > have been hundreds of feet on the Perl road over the last year or so. I wasn't serious. I have anti-bloat religion because the CVS tree is incrementally becoming unwieldy. I rather not see any of this in the base system. I think all these things should be components that can easily be added to a minimal base system. If downloading across the Pacific takes too long, use a CD. 2.2 is just around the corner if only more people can test it. You also mentioned that if Perl were in the base then it would provide an incentive to use it more. I'd hate to see FreeBSD become PerlOS. Since Perl4 is in the base already, I would like to see the following done: 1) /usr/bin/perl should be renamed to /usr/bin/perl4. 2) The Perl dependent scripts in the base should be modified to reference /usr/bin/perl4. 3) Users can then add Perl5 separately and install it as /usr/bin/perl without affecting the base scripts. 4) Find volunteers to rewrite the current scripts in C and eventually free the base of Perl4. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 17:09:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA25274 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA25266 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA27018; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:09:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:09:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199611250109.SAA27018@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-Reply-To: <199611250041.SAA08169@bonkers.taronga.com> References: <199611250006.KAA25958@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <199611250041.SAA08169@bonkers.taronga.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > "Sendmail is the de-facto Unix standard mail delivery agent. Is is > > continually subjected to rigorous security scrutiny and frequently > > updated. > > Don't make me laugh. It has more security holes revealed per year than > every other setuid program in UNIX put together. It is also the most used/public suid program in the world, subject to the most scrutinity (and attack). I'm with Michael. I trust sendmail much more than something I know nothing about. Sendmail is scrutinized, and Qmail isn't. I'm 99.9% sure that Qmail has at least one security hole in it that someone could drive a truck through, but it simply hasn't been found. Have I looked at the code to know this? No, but at some point in time Qmail *has* to have 'root' prividedges, and it's *really* hard to make sure that when a mail-transport agent becomes root that they've squashed any chance of the input causing problems. The input to Qmail may not be run as root, but somehow that input must be written to a user's file or run through a users .forward or other processing agent, and that's where *all* of the bugs lie. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 17:13:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA25667 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:13:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA25645 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA22845; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:06:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611250106.RAA22845@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith Cc: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva), jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:06:19 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:36:57 +1030 (CST) Michael Smith wrote: > "Sendmail is the de-facto Unix standard mail delivery agent. Is is > continually subjected to rigorous security scrutiny and frequently > updated. It provides advanced mail-handling features, and any > unix system administrator will feel immediately at home with it. > Qmail is an obscure mail delivery agent that is claimed to be > secure. Nobody much uses it, and it is not scrutinised in anything > like as much detail. If you have problems with it, you're likely > to have trouble finding competent local support. Which foot would > you like to shoot?" Oh, well, there's smail and mmdf, too... don't forget those... :-) So, for the record, JT Conklin and I made the decision to switch mail.netbsd.org to qmail... Not only is the qmail developers list very responsive to problems, but the documentation is so good that you probably won't _need_ to ask any questions. We learned qmail in a few days, and have been quite happy with the performance of our mail server as a result. > Sure, Qmail may well be the best thing since sliced bread. But making it > the standard FreeBSD mail utility will achieve two things : So, JT and I also discussed putting qmail in the NetBSD source tree, and making it optional. We haven't done anything about that yet, but it's still a possibility... > - expose a pile of security holes that the Qmail developer(s) never > thought existed. > - make FreeBSD the laughing stock of the unix community. Nah... have them both, and let the user choose in /etc/make.conf. Qmail is tiny. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 17:15:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA25804 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA25793 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id TAA13794; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:14:28 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611250114.TAA13794@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:14:28 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611250047.SAA08340@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Peter da Silva" at Nov 24, 96 06:47:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [ cc line trimmed, no point in making people read this more than once ] > > > gated/routed switch is currently handled. One can simply install the > > qmail port (I assume there is one!) and then toggle a few bits. > > You don't need a port. I installed qmail on our firewall and it dropped > right in. The function of a port also includes the ability to automatically build and install a software package so that a new user does not need to do all the grunt work. You need a port. You want a port. > But... OK, fine, y'all are so used to sendmail you can't imagine using > anything else. Subject dropped. Sorry, Peter, I have to agree with the others: replacing a known and supported quantity (Sendmail) with an unknown quantity (Qmail) is most likely a bad idea. Making it a documented option, easy for someone to select and install, is certainly not unreasonable, but making it the default is not really acceptable. I don't see other OS vendors dropping Sendmail in favor of Qmail... ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 17:19:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA26066 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26057 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <16264(2)>; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:18:39 PST Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177567>; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:18:28 -0800 To: Kent Vander Velden cc: Tom Samplonius , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: ping and freebsd crashes In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Nov 96 11:52:10 PST." <9611241952.AA18700@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:18:14 PST From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Nov24.171828pst.177567@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <9611241952.AA18700@spiff.cc.iastate.edu> you write: > My mistake, it is rbootd that was concerning me. These are the >messages that get generated when it starts so I assume that this "bug" >might give the machines that are running rbootd a problem >" >Oct 20 14:56:41 pseudo rbootd[175]: restarted (ed0) >Oct 20 14:56:41 pseudo rbootd[175]: bpf: can't add mcast addr (Invalid >argument), setting promiscuous mode >Oct 20 14:56:41 pseudo /kernel: ed0: promiscuous mode enabled >" rbootd makes an interesting assumption, which doesn't appear to be true on any bpf implementation that I know of, including bpf-1.1 from LBL. However, this patch might make it true for FreeBSD, allowing it to not require promiscuous mode. Would you please try it? Thanks, Bill Index: src/sys/net/bpf.c *** bpf.c.orig Sun Nov 24 23:58:41 1996 --- bpf.c Mon Nov 25 00:08:22 1996 *************** *** 857,862 **** --- 857,873 ---- case BIOCGRSIG: *(u_int *)addr = d->bd_sig; break; + + /* + * XXX ifioctl's first argument is the socket; we don't have + * a socket. SIOC{ADD,DEL}MULTI don't use the socket argument + * so it is safe to pass in a null pointer. + */ + case SIOCADDMULTI: + case SIOCDELMULTI: + error = ifioctl(NULL, cmd, addr, p); + break; + } return (error); } From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 17:39:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA27113 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA27108 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:39:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA04025; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:38:50 -0800 (PST) To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:47:44 CST." <199611250047.SAA08340@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:38:50 -0800 Message-ID: <4023.848885930@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But... OK, fine, y'all are so used to sendmail you can't imagine using > anything else. Subject dropped. I'm happy to drop the subject too, but just to note that this is not a lack of imagination at work - this is simply a QA problem. We're conservative, and sendmail is what we've been using for over a decade, with or without all the holes. When there are a sufficient number of ISPs and other folks using qmail who can support eachother rather than asking us (and we don't know qmail), then we can talk again. For the record, I hate sendmail and think that it's some of the most flawed software ever written. If there is ever a war crimes tribunal convened for people who've done the most to allow crackers to penetrate UNIX systems, Eric Allman's neck will be first into the noose. But that doesn't matter. sendmail is ubiquitous, qmail is not, end of story. We might just as well debate the merits of BETAMAX vs VHS - you'd be technically correct to defend BETA, but who'd care? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 17:46:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA27408 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:46:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA27395 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id TAA13851; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:44:29 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611250144.TAA13851@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:44:29 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611250041.SAA08169@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Peter da Silva" at Nov 24, 96 06:41:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > "Sendmail is the de-facto Unix standard mail delivery agent. Is is > > continually subjected to rigorous security scrutiny and frequently > > updated. > > Don't make me laugh. It has more security holes revealed per year than > every other setuid program in UNIX put together. That suggests that the statement above is true :-) Thank you for supporting Sendmail ;-) > > - expose a pile of security holes that the Qmail developer(s) never > > thought existed. > > Have you looked at qmail? The bits exposed to the outside world don't > even run as root. EVER. Point being? One does not need to run as root to expose a security hole. A security hole can be as simple as a buffer overrun condition that was overlooked by the author. And by definition, a security hole involves getting bits to run in ways that you did not intend (i.e. non-root bits running as root, etc). As a matter of fact, the last Sendmail security problem involved a bug that I suspect people would also have claimed "[the] bits [that are] exposed to the outside world don't even run as root." I do not trust any program where people make such broad, clearly naive statements about security. It usually means that they do not understand that security is merely deterrent, not prevention. I do not care HOW good someone thinks they are with code, there is ALWAYS an exploitable hole or bug of some sort buried in any program worth having. Security is constantly being prepared and testing for weaknesses. Sendmail lives up to that. Eric Allman always has a patch or fix for Sendmail security problems. Every time the burglars get more sophisticated, the locksmith counters appropriately. I have faith in that, and am not about to advise anyone to go with some fly by night solution. It might be more secure, but it might not be. The authors might be as responsive to breaches as Eric Allman is, but they might not be... don't know. I do know that Sendmail is probably one of the most scrutinized setuid programs in the world. That, no doubt, is a double edged sword. It means that ANY bug or hole is likely to be discovered eventually, no matter how obscure, and will be fixed quickly. That makes it a better program. However, that same fact means that it is also much more likely that someone will try to use it to break in :-/ > > - make FreeBSD the laughing stock of the unix community. > > The part of the UNIX community that doesn't care about security, anyway. Funny, I care very much about security. In any case, if you wish to submit patches against sysconfig to make sendmail/qmail a selectable option, the way gated/routed are done, I would be the first to support the addition of such an option. I just do not like the idea of flying against the wind and making a relatively unknown and immature product the default MTA. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 17:56:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA27843 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA27838 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id MAA26654; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:25:45 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611250155.MAA26654@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-Reply-To: <199611250003.SAA13671@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Nov 24, 96 06:03:29 pm" To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:25:44 +1030 (CST) Cc: peter@taronga.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco stands accused of saying: > > While I agree with Jordan's assessment that you are sniffing glue, I > WOULD agree that it might be reasonable to change the Sendmail bias > in /etc/sysconfig (etc) to be more generalized, like the way the > gated/routed switch is currently handled. One can simply install the > qmail port (I assume there is one!) and then toggle a few bits. Sounds like a winner to me too. Peter, as you know a bit about Qmail, could you come up with a paragraph or two about it for the handbook? If it is indeed a secure sendmail replacement, then we should point people at it in all the "right" places. I'm sure we can prevail on someone to SGMLify it if you don't grok SGML (like me, fe.). -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 19:12:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00205 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:12:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (sdev.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA00200 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:12:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id OAA14596; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:11:44 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:11:43 +1100 From: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) To: stesin@gu.net (Andrew Stesin) Cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh), joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Subject: Re: IDE CDROM experiences (was: ATAPI References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.50 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: ; from Andrew Stesin on Nov 24, 1996 14:34:39 +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Stesin writes: > I sholuld also mention that SCSI CDROM drives are now simply > dissapearing from PC hardware market. So like this or not -- > you won't always get SCSI CDROM even if you sincerely want it. This is pretty much the situation in Australia too. To find a SCSI CDROM unit, you have to look and choose your supplier. Most computer stores do not carry stock at all and have to order them in specially. Considering that these stores deal mainly in putting boxes together packaged with Win95, I guess it isn't all that surprising. But that is the bulk of the market. David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 19:47:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01502 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:47:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from bacchus.eng.umd.edu (bacchus.eng.umd.edu [129.2.94.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA01497 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:46:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.8.22.205] (annex8-61.dial.umd.edu [128.8.22.205]) by bacchus.eng.umd.edu (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA16373 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:46:50 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: crb@bacchus.eng.umd.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:46:53 -0500 To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org From: crb@glue.umd.edu (Christopher R. Bowman) Subject: Re: hackers-digest V1 #1677 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> A point to consider : I _loathe_ Perl. Reading it gives me a >> headache, and I would sooner snort powdered lithium than program in >> it. Understand that I think Perl is relevant for what it is, and not >> what I feel about it. > >At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org I thought Lithium melts around 453.9K and boils around 1615K doesn't that make it a gas at STP ST is around 300K right? --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@eng.umd.edu My home page From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 19:53:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01812 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA01795 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vRs5A-0005mV-00; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:51:44 -0700 To: Michael Smith Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco), peter@taronga.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:25:44 +1030." <199611250155.MAA26654@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199611250155.MAA26654@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:51:44 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199611250155.MAA26654@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes: : Sounds like a winner to me too. Peter, as you know a bit about Qmail, : could you come up with a paragraph or two about it for the handbook? : If it is indeed a secure sendmail replacement, then we should point : people at it in all the "right" places. I've been happy with exim. And would be willing to help any efforts to make alternative MTAs more easily intergrated into FreeBSD. qmail isn't the only alternative. I don't want to get into a name calling contest about which one is better at this instance. Make it easy to switch between them, and it doesn't matter what the picture is today or if that changes in the next 6 months :-). Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 20:12:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA02578 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA02572 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id OAA27182; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:39:51 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611250409.OAA27182@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Nov 24, 96 08:51:44 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:39:50 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, peter@taronga.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > In message <199611250155.MAA26654@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> > Michael Smith writes: > : Sounds like a winner to me too. Peter, as you know a bit about Qmail, > : could you come up with a paragraph or two about it for the handbook? > : If it is indeed a secure sendmail replacement, then we should point > : people at it in all the "right" places. > > I've been happy with exim. And would be willing to help any efforts > to make alternative MTAs more easily intergrated into FreeBSD. qmail > isn't the only alternative. I don't want to get into a name calling > contest about which one is better at this instance. Make it easy to > switch between them, and it doesn't matter what the picture is today > or if that changes in the next 6 months :-). Ok, a proposal for supporting additional mail agents : In /etc/sysconfig, we ditch 'sendmail_flags', and go to 'mailer' and 'mailerflags'. In the startup file for each new MTA, which is installed in /usr/local/etc/rc.d/, check the 'mailer' variable, and only start the MTA if the 'mailer' variable matches. The local startup files are read with all of the /etc/sysconfig variables defined, so you don't have to read it yourselves. The comment in /etc/sysconfig should reflect the mailers that are available as options, and reference the (upcoming) handbook entry for same. How does this sound? The /etc/sysconfig changes (and some minor /etc/rc changes for the sendmail case) are nice and straightforward and I'll happily do those if this is accepted. > Warner -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 20:18:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA02835 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA02826 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:18:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vRsV3-0005rF-00; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:18:29 -0700 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Interesting Serial card: 16bit and 16650[sic] Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:18:28 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just got handed a Siig CyberPro Dual I/O card. This is a card that has two high speed 16650 Serial ports on it. Yes, that's right 16650. The card itself is a 16 bit card that has I/O ports at COM1..COM8. It claims to have support for 115200 OR 230400 or 460800 baud. Well, the rates higher than 115200 are reserved to software developers. So, has anybody heard of this puppy? BTW, the following I/O bases are listed: COM1 3f8 COM2 2f8 COM3 3e8 COM4 2e8 COM5 2f0 COM6 3e0 COM7 2e0 COM8 260 Looking at the card, it also supports most of the IRQ lines. However, the small tab of the card only has IRQ pins, so I'm not sure if it decodes 16bit addresses, or can do 16bit data transfers. Has anybody tried to use this card in their machine??? Did it work? Does anybody know what a 16*6*50 is? How is it different than a 550? Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 20:21:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA02978 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA02964 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:21:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA04574; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:20:50 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Smith cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh), jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:39:50 +1030." <199611250409.OAA27182@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:20:49 -0800 Message-ID: <4572.848895649@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How does this sound? The /etc/sysconfig changes (and some minor /etc/rc > changes for the sendmail case) are nice and straightforward and I'll > happily do those if this is accepted. That sounds way too flexible and sensible for me.. :-) No, seriously, sounds pretty neat just so long as starting sendmail from /usr/local/etc/rc.d doesn't hose anything - I haven't looked to see at which stage it's started in /etc/rc, but if there are any ordering dependencies there then they might hose us. Just something to watch for. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 20:35:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03513 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03504 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id PAA27300; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:04:55 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611250434.PAA27300@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-Reply-To: <4572.848895649@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 24, 96 08:20:49 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:04:54 +1030 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, newton@communica.com.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > No, seriously, sounds pretty neat just so long as starting sendmail > from /usr/local/etc/rc.d doesn't hose anything - I haven't looked to > see at which stage it's started in /etc/rc, but if there are any > ordering dependencies there then they might hose us. Just something > to watch for. I had no intention of starting sendmail from /usr/local/etc/rc.d; it's still a part of the base system, and should still be started out of /etc/rc. I was just going to change the startup conditional for it to conform to the new model, so that if 'mailer' was set to "qmail", sendmail would not start. The other change would be to check 'sendmail_flags' and if it was nonempty set 'mailer' to "sendmail" and copy 'mailerflags' to suit, in order to maintain backwards compatability. I religiously update /etc/rc these days, but often leave a stale /etc/sysconfig lying around. I'd also appreciate input from anyone that can see a problem with having sendmail lying around but not running; if it's thought that this is still a security risk, then there should be a comment in the handbook section on mailer security suggesting that it be disabled (nuked, re-moded, etc.). Newt, perhaps you could spare a few neurons to put some words together on this topic? (If you haven't been following the thread, I'll brief you offline...) > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 20:38:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03638 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03632 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA04667; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:38:45 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Smith cc: hackers@freebsd.org, newton@communica.com.au Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:04:54 +1030." <199611250434.PAA27300@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:38:45 -0800 Message-ID: <4665.848896725@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I had no intention of starting sendmail from /usr/local/etc/rc.d; it's > still a part of the base system, and should still be started out of > /etc/rc. I was just going to change the startup conditional for it to Duh. Sorry, my brain must not be functioning. Hang on a sec... [bang! bang! bang!] Ah, that's the problem fixed - there was grit stuck in the cerebrum. Sorry, won't happen again. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 20:41:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03821 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03816 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id PAA27340; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:11:10 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611250441.PAA27340@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Interesting Serial card: 16bit and 16650[sic] In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Nov 24, 96 09:18:28 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:11:10 +1030 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > I just got handed a Siig CyberPro Dual I/O card. This is a card that > has two high speed 16650 Serial ports on it. Yes, that's right > 16650. The card itself is a 16 bit card that has I/O ports at > COM1..COM8. > > It claims to have support for 115200 OR 230400 or 460800 baud. Well, > the rates higher than 115200 are reserved to software developers. *laugh* Sounds like it has a faster clock onboard and a programmable divider. What's the crystal on the card? > Looking at the card, it also supports most of the IRQ lines. However, > the small tab of the card only has IRQ pins, so I'm not sure if it > decodes 16bit addresses, or can do 16bit data transfers. The 16650 is still an 8-bit part, so extra databits would be useless. > Has anybody tried to use this card in their machine??? Did it work? > Does anybody know what a 16*6*50 is? How is it different than a 550? It's a 16550 with bigger (32 byte, IIRC) FIFOs. I don't know how you'd go about detecting it - what does the 'sio' probe have to say about it? Bruce would probably be the authority here. > Warner -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 20:43:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03901 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:43:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com (arl-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.217.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA03896 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:43:49 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id XAA04172; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:43:18 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:43:03 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1658 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611242343_MC1-C33-8E61@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1658 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-19-96 11:29:00 PM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1658 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 20:43:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03918 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:43:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.217.135]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA03913 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:43:55 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id XAA25948; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:43:24 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:43:03 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1658 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611242343_MC1-C33-8E61@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id XAA17580; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:29:41 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.8.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA23847; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00269 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:47:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:47:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611200347.TAA00269@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1658 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Tuesday, 19 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1658 In this issue: Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) Re: Kernel calls - args in registers Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: split speed sio port? Re: Announce: Alternative Mail Archive Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Lithium [was: Re: Who needs Perl? We do!] Re: Serious BIND resolver problem. (fwd) Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) Re: Cosmo3D for Linux ?? (fwd) Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) Re: sendmail without DNS (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2).) arpresolve errors Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Coleman Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:05:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Hal Snyder wrote: > > My question is: Does Freebsd support ipx to ip routing. I know that BSDi > > does. (And they want $6,000 for their system because of it.) oops, I really meant ipx to ip TRANSLATION. I want to only have one host using a ip address and all the others using ipx (or somthing similar) to talk to the internet. Each computer would be mapped to by the MAC address on the ethernet card. All communications with the internet would go through FBSD host. > > Do we have any plans for implementing it? BSDI and the Novell have it. There are a few commercial places that have it also. But Since we already use Freebsd, I was hoping a cool solution. ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:52:03 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Kernel calls - args in registers Travis Hassloch x231 stands accused of saying: > > One thing I thought might make a worthwhile gain is to make all > intrakernel calls use registers -- and if possible, all kernel calls. I think Bruce will have opinions here, but IMHO using registers for arg passing isn't much of a win, especially on the x86 where there are so few of them. Register args win when the callee doesn't have to use the registers the args are in until they're needed. On the x86, it's more likely that the callee will need the registers and thus have to save the args somewhere else (like on the stack...), and thus lose worse. Another issue is stack unwinding; it's a real pain in the backside to unwind a stack that includes calls to functions taking register args; either the function saves the register args on the stack before the return address before calling out the first time, or you live with not being able to get the value of the arguments. Either way, I don't think that the improvements would be significant enough to be worth the effort. YMMV, especially on the 68K and some RISC targets where there are enough registers to make this worthwhile. > Obviously this would require rewriting a bit of the system call > dispatch code. The next obvious step would be to change the > system call structure so that copying a stack around wasn't necessary > on most system calls. Um, I don't actually think that the stack is 'copied around' in the first place, and you'd still have to keep most of it because not all your syscall args are going to fit in your registers. - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:53:40 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Ollivier Robert stands accused of saying: > > Perl 5.004 is rounding the corner. 5.003_08 just came out and 5.003_09 will > be 5.004-candidate. > > Many thinks are broken (even if people don't tumble often on them) and > 5.004 should be stable. Ok. I am still waiting for a hand up from someone who has a contrib-ready perl5. > BTW OpenBSD has already done the integration into a bmake-based tree so we > could look at how they've done it. Not to diss the OBSD guys, but the contrib technique is a bit different, and I think we will want to do it like that. > Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:03:29 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: split speed sio port? Adam David stands accused of saying: > > > > Use the spiffo 'divert socket' stuff and write a management program that > > tracks how much data it has forwarded for each of the classes in a given > > period. This gives you total flexibility, and saves us from trying to > > second-guess harebrained ideas 8) > > This is all very well, but when upstream is not (yet?) willing to implement > such measures themselves and will not trust software that is located outside > of their direct control, one has to make do with what is available. Huh? How does this affect anything? Or are you saying that "upstream" insists that you use an asymmetrical link? > Of course, a proven product might catch their interest in terms of > suitability. Hey, go for it 8) > Adam David - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: John Fieber Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:56:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Announce: Alternative Mail Archive On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > That is probably true, but (at least when I am searching the lists) > I usually have some idea what time frame I am interested in. I am > usually looking to quote something back at somebody, etc. It is > very frustrating to type in a bunch of terms and still have it hit > a hundred messages, half of which are from 1995. Precicely, and there is no reason why your time frame shouldn't be part of the query along with the terms. The more dimensions you can describe, the more accurate the retrieved set will be. The problem with hypermail is the timeframes are pre-set, and not necessairly in a very useful fashion. The fact that the current arcihves on www.freebsd.org do not allow retrieval by date is, in my mind, a catastrophic failing. > Write a good free IR system? :-) Its hard! IR is theoretically bankrupt. What to do? Go flip through the proceedings and papers from TREC and you will see. People are spending lots of time and money and the improvements they achieve are miniscule. - -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ ------------------------------ From: "M.R.Murphy" Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:56:33 -0800 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > > > At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). Not that it matters wrt perl, but at STP, lithium is a solid. A metallic solid. A silvery white metallic solid. The MP at SP is 453.69K. Your friendly chemist, - -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good ------------------------------ From: Robert Eckardt Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:58:16 +0100 (MET) Subject: Lithium [was: Re: Who needs Perl? We do!] > > In message <199611191814.LAA09210@phaeton.artisoft.com> Terry Lambert writes: > > : At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). > > > > At STP (20 C, 1 atmosphere), Lithium is a whitish metal solid. > > LiO2 or Li2? Just to clarify: 6 7 Li and Li as well as LiH, Li O and Li O are solid at STP. 3 3 2 2 2 What were you thinking of ? Robert - -- Robert Eckardt \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm) RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\ What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm) http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de ------------------------------ From: Julian Assange Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:13:33 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Serious BIND resolver problem. (fwd) > > > > On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, S(pork) wrote: > > > >From your friendly neighborhood paranoia victim comes yet another loaded > > question... > > > > I got this little advisory (thankfully without an exploit) today, and it's > > got me all worried. It's a problem in the whole gethostbyname call that > > allows (supposedly) local and remote users to gain root access using a > > variety of programs that rely on the gethostbyname call. So I downloaded > > BIND-4.9.3-REL which fixes all of this; and then I read the README in the > > BSD directory, got thoroughly confused, and posted my root password to > > #hack on irc. (kidding). Now this does not appear to be a simple feat > > (hence my posting to -questions and -security; security people can look at > > it and laugh, and questions can tell me all about "diff-ing my source > > tree" and "manually updating includes (which you may or may not have to > > do)." So my question is this; could anyone who's already updated this > > give me some advice or some pointers to this procedure?? The site > > carrying 4.9.3-REL is over at: ftp.vix.com/pub/bind/release > > > > Thanks All, > > > > Charles > > Charles, > > I think 4.9.5-REL over at ftp.vix.com/pub/bind/release/4.9.5 is > what you are looking for, and as suggested by the advisory. I just > updated our 2 name servers this morning, and all I did is make, and then > make install. > > Sincerely, > > Brian > it isn't the name servers you need to upgrade, it is the resolver libraries. - -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | C7F81C2AA32D7D4E4D360A2ED2098E0D | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Tom Samplonius Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:57:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Chris Coleman wrote: > I work at a local community college. We have two FreeBSD boxes running > all of the internet services. > > My question is: Does Freebsd support ipx to ip routing. I know that BSDi > does. (And they want $6,000 for their system because of it.) > > Do we have any plans for implementing it? You can't route between IP and IPX. They are incompatible. You can can however tunnel IPX across an IP network. > We need it to solve two problems. number one, we are running out of ip > addresses on campus. We want to eliminate most of them and make them use > ipx routed through a FBSD box to communicate through the internet. This would involve a proxy-type service (ex. Catapult for NT; see ftp.microsoft.com). > And we want to eliminate the need for so many ip addresses so that we > can get rid of all the ip address conflicts that we can't seem to trace > down. > > Any one have a good method of finding an ip address conflict? Force people to use DHCP. It isn't perfect, but better than letting a bunch of newbies configure their own systems. A proxy like cached or squid, which both work under FreeBSD could also solve your address shortage problem. The entire 10.x.x.x block has been reserved for non-connected sites, and these addresses could be given to given to internal campus machines. Proxy servers like cached can also reduce Internet traffic, and speed access to common pages. > Thanks in advance > > Chris Coleman (chris@aries.bb.cc.wa.us) > Computer Support Technician I (509)-766-8873 > Big Bend Community College Internet Instructor > Death is life's way of telling you you're fired. > > Tom ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:28:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > > > A point to consider : I _loathe_ Perl. Reading it gives me a > > > headache, and I would sooner snort powdered lithium than program in > > > it. Understand that I think Perl is relevant for what it is, and not > > > what I feel about it. > > > > At STP, Lithium is a gas. 8-). > > Interesting. Very soft greyish metal the last time I saw it... If you don't want the boring details, or you want to figure the joke out for yourself, don't read the rest of this message. It probably belongs on -chat anyway. If you are a great fan of PERL and don't want to be annoyed, well, you've been warned. 8-). This was a 3-level English pun based on a single initial English pun used to back-handedly reference PERL. (1) At STP, diatomic Lithium the metal is a solid (someone claimed all diatomic metals, except Mercury, are solid at STP; Hydrogen isn't. 8-)). (2) This forces a reinterpretation of "is a gas" as a colloquialism instead of a direct interpretation. The use of the colloquialism is a bit archaic (tantamount to using the word "groovy", I suppose); however, there is a Rolling Stones song "Jumpin' Jack Flash", in which they use it "Jumpin' Jack Flash, it's a gas, gas, gas...", and it was The Clue in a Whoopie Goldberg movie, titled after the song. (3) How can Lithium be "a gas" in the colloquial sense? Lithium salts are used psychopharmacologically in the moderation of N-dopamine uptake. A chronically mentally ill person with Schitzophrenia is most likely suffering from: (1) a genetic predisposition to having fewer than is considered normal N-dopamine receptors, or (2) smaller than is considered normal N-dopamine production, or (3) has a chemical imbalance interfering with N-dopamine uptake. Item (3) can be environmental poisoning -- for instance, Aspartame (Nutrasweet) bonds to N-dopamine receptors. Do not drink most diet sodas if you are borderline Schitzophrenic, or change the amount you drink if you are already on medication. In a "normal" person, Lithium use would result in reduced brain function. So we see that if he "would sooner snort powdered lithium", he is probably referring to it's psychotropic properties... implyimg that, though Lithium reduces brain function, it does not reduce it so much as programming in PERL might... hence the second order pun. You can send fan-mail to my regular address. 8-P. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Dave Cornejo Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:47:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Wilko Bulte wrote: > I just today got a catalog in my PObox of Pacific HighTech CDROM. > A bit to my surprise it has a 'Turbo FreeBSD' CDROM listed on it's > cover. I contains 2.1.5R and a 2.2 SNAP (960801? it's very > fine print). IMO, PHT doesn't do nearly the quality job that Walnut Creek does on their disks. Their general pricing reflects this. BSDisc (sp?) also supplies FreeBSD along with NetBSD on a CD. I have a fairly old copy of this and it's a great archive, but not nearly so nice to install as the genuine WC CDROM CD. I don't know if either PHT or BSDisc supports FreeBSD in any fashion, but this certainly plays into my buying decision. - -- Dave Cornejo - Dogwood Media, Fremont, California ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:40:29 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) > > > My question is: Does Freebsd support ipx to ip routing. I know that BSDi > > > does. (And they want $6,000 for their system because of it.) > > oops, I really meant ipx to ip TRANSLATION. I want to only have one host > using a ip address and all the others using ipx (or somthing similar) to > talk to the internet. Each computer would be mapped to by the MAC address > on the ethernet card. All communications with the internet would go > through FBSD host. This is called an "IP Proxy Gateway", and requires both a service agent on the gateway box, and a "WINSOCK.DLL" or "WSOCK32.DLL" on the client machine that knows how to connect to the proxy server over the transport. As a point of general information, the IANA is not responsible for assigning well-known-sockets on IPX (or SPX)... Novell itself is. In order to get an assignment, your application must be NDS (NetWare Directory Services) aware. As another point of interest, the only value in NDS in this case in in service advertisement for the proxy gateway service. To get around this problem (requirement), most third party developers have been using IPX diagnostic broadcasts to locate servers. This is very dirty, and Novell is bound to do something to stop it in the next release or so. > Do we have any plans for implementing it? > > BSDI and the Novell have it. There are a few commercial places that have > it also. But Since we already use Freebsd, I was hoping a cool > solution. You up for writing a winsock? If you were to write a winsock, and you made it use SOCKS to connect to a SOCKS IP Proxy Gateway, your name would be heralded from the tops of towers, in many circles, since it would mean the death of the hated "aliasing". BTW: The company I work for is one of the companies who produces a commercial product like this. There's not a chance in the world that they would publically document their wire protocol. 8-(. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: sysseh@devetir.qld.gov.au (Stephen Hocking) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:09:46 GMT Subject: Re: Cosmo3D for Linux ?? (fwd) Cosmo3D - a nice OpenGL tool. Xref: ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au comp.graphics.api.inventor:3031 comp.graphics.api.opengl:8438 Path: ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!tezcat!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!noc.nyx.net!nyx10.cs.du.edu!not-for-mail From: wdwells@nyx10.cs.du.edu (David "Fuzzy" Wells) Newsgroups: comp.graphics.api.inventor,comp.graphics.api.opengl Subject: Re: Cosmo3D for Linux ?? Date: 17 Nov 1996 22:39:46 -0700 Organization: University of Denver, Math/CS Dept. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <56osr2$3o1@nyx10.cs.du.edu> References: <3289BD6C.2F1C@nlr.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyx10.nyx.net >Are there plans to port Cosmo3D to Linux ?? > >I heard that there are no real plans to make Open Inventor available on >Linux but how 'bout Cosmo3D Cosmo 3D for Linux was _very_ quietly announced at SIGGRAPH'96. The person responsible for this is away at the SGI European Dev Conf and should be back Nov 25th. Hopefully, I'll get more info around that time. Fuzzy. ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:52:53 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) Chris Coleman stands accused of saying: > > oops, I really meant ipx to ip TRANSLATION. I want to only have one host > using a ip address and all the others using ipx (or somthing similar) to > talk to the internet. Each computer would be mapped to by the MAC address > on the ethernet card. All communications with the internet would go > through FBSD host. Uh. You fail to understand. Read the previous response wrt. talking IP on a reserved address range on your internal network to a proxy server on your BSD box(es). > Do we have any plans for implementing it? > > BSDI and the Novell have it. There are a few commercial places that have > it also. But Since we already use Freebsd, I was hoping a cool > solution. You are probably thinking of ip-in-ipx, which is totally different from what you were trying to describe. I don't know if anyone is bothering with this, as ipx is in many peoples' minds a dead protocol. - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Marc Slemko Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:58:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: sendmail without DNS (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2).) On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Marc Slemko wrote: > > > I have tried nocanonify, nodns, a service.switch file and perhaps a few > > other things that I can't remember right now, but sendmail still tries to > > do DNS lookups. > > You must do something wrong. I'm using a local nameserver, but as you > can see, it's only used for local lookups: ...and if you are setup to use a remote nameserver then it will try to use that. Therefore, you aren't disabling lookups. A local nameserver can work around the problem though. [...] > > uriah # kill -STOP `cat /var/run/named.pid ` > uriah # (echo "/bind/s/^/#"; echo "w"; echo "q") | ed /etc/host.conf > 105 > #bind > 106 Aha. This is a way of working around it that I had temporarily forgot about. With hosts before bind in /etc/host.conf, and an entry for the local hostname in /etc/hosts, the lookup will be avoided. I forgot about that because there is some reason (can't remember it right now; could be something that was fixed long ago) why I couldn't do that to host.conf on the particular machine because it interfered with something else. However, in the general case for someone getting mail via uucp with a dial on demand type network connection that will solve the problem. Thanks. > uriah # echo "hi you" | mail -s "test mail" marcs@znep.com > uriah # mailq > Mail Queue (1 request) > --Q-ID-- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient------------ > BAA03279* (no control file) > > (Well, that's the queue file from my /etc/daily that's just running > right now. Your mail did already go out to the UUCP spool by that > time, no additional delay for nameserver attempts etc.) If you don't have your machine setup so that it thinks it can reach a nameserver outside and there is a route to that nameserver, you won't notice any extra delays. ------------------------------ From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:32:51 +1100 (EST) Subject: arpresolve errors Hi, Are messages like the one below indicative of mbuf problems, or something else? OS is 2.1.5R, about 30 slip/ppp ports. The given address is the remote address on a CSLIP link. A check through the messages file shows that it only happens to CSLIP links which are gateways to remote nets/subnets. "arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo for 203.x.y.49" After enough of these, the machine usually crashes. Thanks, Danny ------------------------------ From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:45:11 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > You up for writing a winsock? If you were to write a winsock, and > you made it use SOCKS to connect to a SOCKS IP Proxy Gateway, your > name would be heralded from the tops of towers, in many circles, > since it would mean the death of the hated "aliasing". Trumpet Winsock does this, last time I looked, or am I misunderstanding what you are suggesting? Danny ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1658 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 20:48:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA04095 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA04090 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vRsxt-00062e-00; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:48:17 -0700 To: Michael Smith Subject: Re: Interesting Serial card: 16bit and 16650[sic] Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:11:10 +1030." <199611250441.PAA27340@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199611250441.PAA27340@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:48:16 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199611250441.PAA27340@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes: : Warner Losh stands accused of saying: : > It claims to have support for 115200 OR 230400 or 460800 baud. Well, : > the rates higher than 115200 are reserved to software developers. : : *laugh* Sounds like it has a faster clock onboard and a programmable : divider. What's the crystal on the card? 7.3738MHz. The buad rate selectors go into a 74LS74. Looks like a strong case for simple divide my n :-). : > Looking at the card, it also supports most of the IRQ lines. However, : > the small tab of the card only has IRQ pins, so I'm not sure if it : > decodes 16bit addresses, or can do 16bit data transfers. : : The 16650 is still an 8-bit part, so extra databits would be useless. Makes sense. I have confirmed that the tongues in question are IRQ 10, 11, 12, and 15. So it sounds like it would work with FreeBSD.... That's good to know. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 21:00:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA04565 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04557 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id PAA27457; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:29:50 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611250459.PAA27457@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Interesting Serial card: 16bit and 16650[sic] In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Nov 24, 96 09:48:16 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:29:48 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > > 7.3738MHz. The buad rate selectors go into a 74LS74. Looks like a > strong case for simple divide my n :-). Baudrate selectors? There are jumpers for this, or is there a latch and a 1-of-n mux there too? > So it sounds like it would work with FreeBSD.... That's good to know. We've established "should". How about "does"? 8) > Warner -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Nov 24 21:02:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA04658 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA04650 for ; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vRtBL-000646-00; Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:02:11 -0700 To: Michael Smith Subject: Re: Interesting Serial card: 16bit and 16650[sic] Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:29:48 +1030." <199611250459.PAA27457@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199611250459.PAA27457@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:02:11 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199611250459.PAA27457@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes: : Warner Losh stands accused of saying: : > : > 7.3738MHz. The buad rate selectors go into a 74LS74. Looks like a : > strong case for simple divide my n :-). : : Baudrate selectors? There are jumpers for this, or is there a latch : and a 1-of-n mux there too? I think the latch is a 1-of-n mux. The baud rate I think is just maxium baud possible. : > So it sounds like it would work with FreeBSD.... That's good to know. : : We've established "should". How about "does"? 8) OK. I'll see if it see them! Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 00:01:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA11527 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 00:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from hq.icb.chel.su (hq.icb.chel.su [193.125.10.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11482; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 00:00:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (babkin@localhost) by hq.icb.chel.su (8.7.5/8.6.5) id MAA12915; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:54:38 +0500 (ESK) From: "Serge A. Babkin" Message-Id: <199611250754.MAA12915@hq.icb.chel.su> Subject: Re: dgb driver with interrupts To: mcgovern@spoon.beta.com (Brian J. McGovern) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:54:38 +0500 (ESK) Cc: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611240132.UAA13563@spoon.beta.com> from "Brian J. McGovern" at Nov 23, 96 08:32:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I was looking over the dgb.c (driver file), and noticed that there is some > skeleton work for using the driver with interrupts. However, its been > effectively commented out with the #ifdef 0. Is it possible to switch this > driver to use interrupts, instead of polled io? And if so, should I expect > it work/what are the changes? No, you can't do it by enabling this part of driver. You anned to add the interrupt support in other parts of driver too. > I'm curious, because I'd like to use 3-4 of these boards in a PC to do > some SLIP and PPP testing, and would be looking for optimal throughput. I think the polling mode may give even better throughput than the interrupt mode under heavy load. The reason is that it takes very short time to check if some port on the cards needs serviceing. But it saves the interrupt overhead. Really the interrupt mode can only improve the answer times. The other problem with polling is that it runs at clock priority and disables other interrupts for this time so interrupts can help here. -SB From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 01:29:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA20250 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from vcgate3.mei.co.jp (vcgate3.mei.co.jp [202.32.14.53]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA20231; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by vcgate3.mei.co.jp (5.65mei1.2g/5.9:4.9:vcgate0:961113) id AA18288; Mon, 25 Nov 96 18:25:09 +0900 Received: by vcmei.vanc.mei.co.jp (5.65mei1.1/5.9:4.9:vcmei:961120) id AA14142; Mon, 25 Nov 96 18:25:19 +0900 Received: by kmegate.kme.mei.co.jp (4.1/5.5:4.6:kmegate:961122) id AA14112; Mon, 25 Nov 96 18:25:04 JST Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 18:25:04 JST From: akiyama@kme.mei.co.jp (Shunsuke Akiyama) Message-Id: <9611250925.AA14112@kmegate.kme.mei.co.jp> To: tsbarry@nortel.ca Cc: freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, peter@taronga.com In-Reply-To: <9611221846.AA03508@vcgate1.mei.co.jp> (tsbarry@nortel.ca) Subject: Re: Drive with 1024 byte logical blocks Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.93) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk b a writes: > The changes that John Gumb and I came up with modify > far less code then this patch. Is this patch fixing > extra problems that we missed? That was my version of UFS with 512/1024/2048 byte/sector media patch. It's support VM fix using mmapped access, but not support DOS-FS. > Further you have not patched fdisk or newfs that seem to > be critical to getting a ufs file system onto a disk. I'm only using /sbin/disklabel, but never got a problem. /sbin/fdisk ..., humm, it's not worked for 1024/2048 byte/sector media. -- Shunsuke Akiyama Kyushu Matsushita Electric Co., Ltd. Fukuoka, Japan. akiyama@kme.mei.co.jp From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 01:32:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA20558 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:32:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.pa-consulting.com (ns.pa-consulting.com [193.118.224.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA20510 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM by ns.pa-consulting.com (8.6.4) id JAA12356; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:42:51 GMT Received: by SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM with Microsoft Mail id <3299D84C@SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM>; Mon, 25 Nov 96 09:33:00 PST From: Duncan Barclay To: freebsd-hackers Subject: RE: descriptors and sockets and pipes, oh my Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 09:16:00 PST Message-ID: <3299D84C@SMTPGATE.PA-CONSULTING.COM> Encoding: 43 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Probably the best place to look is in the source code for the portal FS. Have a look at the example "file" portal system and also the ineraction between the kernal and the mount_portalfs code. The kernal passes the filename into the VFS layers which communicates with a user process down a socket pair. The server (ie. mount_portalfs) then returns opened file descriptors back up the sockets. Duncan ---------- From: owner-freebsd-hackers To: hackers Subject: descriptors and sockets and pipes, oh my Date: 23 November 1996 13:02 Does anyone have a source code example handy of passing a file descriptor from one process to anyther via an AF_UNIX socket? _UNIX Network Programming_ only provides an example for 4.3BSD; in 4.4BSD, the msghdr structure has changed. Also, is it possible to pass descriptors between totally unrelated processes, or must they be parent and child? Lastly, is it still possible to exchange file descriptors with the new pipe code in 2.2.x? The example in the book uses pipe(), but that's because pipes were really AF_UNIX sockets in disguise; this isn't true in FreeBSD 2.2.x anymore. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "If you're ever in trouble, go to the CTR. Ask for Bill. He will help you." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 01:55:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27234 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:55:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA27157 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA24287; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:52:18 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA10886; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:52:17 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA16590; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:35:29 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611250935.KAA16590@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: looking for an idea To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:35:28 +0100 (MET) Cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul) In-Reply-To: <199611242122.QAA02399@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from Bill Paul at "Nov 24, 96 04:22:57 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bill Paul wrote: > Now, the problem is to find a way for A to verify B's UID without > resorting to grovelling in /dev/kmem. This is necessary since A would > need privileges to open /dev/kmem, and A and B might not be run by > privileged users. /proc/$pid/status is readable by everyone, and contains the real and effective UID of the process. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 01:56:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA27569 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA26973; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 01:54:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id KAA24416; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:53:52 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA10902; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:53:52 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id KAA16780; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:47:58 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611250947.KAA16780@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: suidperl (v5.003) - Doesn't work, Any Tips? To: ports@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:47:58 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) In-Reply-To: from Randall Hopper at "Nov 24, 96 06:37:46 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Randall Hopper wrote: > I have a really simple setuid script that used to work with the perl > 5.001 port. I recently upgraded to 2.2-ALPHA and the 5.003 port, and it > stopped working: > > #!/usr/local/bin/suidperl -w > > $ENV{'PATH'} = '/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin'; > exec( "/sbin/mount /zip" ); > > It just dumps out without any errors at all. This looks as if somebody stupidly assumed the Perl gods are DingTRT. They aren't. The entire suidperl patches for BSD they've been emitting don't work. The only thing that works is dropping support for Posix saved IDs (which was the source of the known suidperl evil in the first place), and use a similar configuration as the Perl4 in the base code uses. /usr/bin/suidperl _does_ work, and it's believed to not have the recent security hole. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 02:29:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA05887 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA05744; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (localhost.grondar.za [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA07431; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:27:27 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199611251027.MAA07431@grackle.grondar.za> To: J Wunsch cc: ports@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) Subject: Re: suidperl (v5.003) - Doesn't work, Any Tips? Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:27:26 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > As Randall Hopper wrote: > > > I have a really simple setuid script that used to work with the perl > > 5.001 port. I recently upgraded to 2.2-ALPHA and the 5.003 port, and it > > stopped working: > > > > #!/usr/local/bin/suidperl -w > > > > $ENV{'PATH'} = '/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin'; > > exec( "/sbin/mount /zip" ); > > > > It just dumps out without any errors at all. > > This looks as if somebody stupidly assumed the Perl gods are DingTRT. > They aren't. The entire suidperl patches for BSD they've been > emitting don't work. The only thing that works is dropping support > for Posix saved IDs (which was the source of the known suidperl evil > in the first place), and use a similar configuration as the Perl4 in > the base code uses. /usr/bin/suidperl _does_ work, and it's believed > to not have the recent security hole. The stupid one is me. :-(. I'll fix it tonite. M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 05:19:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA14391 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 05:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA14381 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 05:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kestrel.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:19:20 +0000 Received: from localhost by kestrel.ukc.ac.uk (5.x/UKC-2.14) id AA05775; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:19:17 GMT Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:19:17 +0000 (GMT) From: "K.J.Koster" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: A simple way to crash your system. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello hackers, Last night I discovered a simple way to crash my system (2.1.5-release). It is really nothing that you would do every day, but still. After rebuilding my kernel, and doing a `make install' on it, I wanted to make a little change to my autoexec.bat, before rebooting so: LikeEver# make install *chew chew, installed kernel* LikeEver# mount /msdos *silence*... Uh, Oh... *twitch, grasp, cold reboot* This is obviously stupidity on my part, for not rebooting immediately after installing the kernel, but still. Altough I am speculating here, I think this has to do with the fact that I do not have msdosfs compiled in with the kernel. After installing a different kernel, I asked the system to modload msdosfs, with the above result. Please CC me, as I'm not on the list. Groetjes, Kees Jan ------------------------------------------------------------v-- Kees Jan Koster Kemsing gardens 46 e-mail: kjk1@ukc.ac.uk Canterbury, Kent phone: UK-1227-452151 CT2 7RF, United Kingdom --------------------------------------------------------------- Yesterday I could not even write "Engenier", and now I are one. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 05:23:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA14538 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 05:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mercury.ukc.ac.uk (mercury.ukc.ac.uk [129.12.21.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA14529 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 05:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from kestrel.ukc.ac.uk by mercury.ukc.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:22:52 +0000 Received: from localhost by kestrel.ukc.ac.uk (5.x/UKC-2.14) id AA05840; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:22:50 GMT Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:22:50 +0000 (GMT) From: "K.J.Koster" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: The Ping of death page. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello hackers, Have you looked at http://www.sophist.demon.co.uk/ping/index.html How well does FreeBSD handle this? Groetjes, Kees Jan ------------------------------------------------------------v-- Kees Jan Koster Kemsing gardens 46 e-mail: kjk1@ukc.ac.uk Canterbury, Kent phone: UK-1227-452151 CT2 7RF, United Kingdom --------------------------------------------------------------- Yesterday I could not even write "Engenier", and now I are one. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 05:55:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA17631 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 05:55:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pillar.elsevier.co.uk (root@pillar.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA17595; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 05:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by pillar.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA21480; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:54:47 GMT Received: from cadair.elsevier.co.uk by snowdon.elsevier.co.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:55:02 +0000 Received: from tees.elsevier.co.uk (tees.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.60]) by cadair.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA12382; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:54:51 GMT Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees.elsevier.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) id NAA07467; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:53:37 GMT To: Terry Lambert Cc: sos@freebsd.org, mark@quickweb.com, p.richards@elsevier.co.uk, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ATAPI (was: Who needs Perl? We do!) References: <199611222059.NAA15948@phaeton.artisoft.com> From: Paul Richards Date: 25 Nov 1996 13:53:36 +0000 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:59:44 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <573exyp9gf.fsf@tees.elsevier.co.uk> Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.30 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > Our company just bought a bunch of Micron machines. They are all SCSI, > and they were not special order. > The last batch of Compaqs bought here were scsi too. Maybe things are changing. -- Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. (Netcraft Ltd. contractor) Elsevier Science TIS online journal project. Email: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk Phone: 0370 462071 (Mobile), +44 (0)1865 843155 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 06:05:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA18758 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:05:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA18743 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 06:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA05764; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:03:54 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199611251403.JAA05764@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: looking for an idea To: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:03:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611250935.KAA16590@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Nov 25, 96 10:35:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, J Wunsch had to walk into mine and say: > As Bill Paul wrote: > > > Now, the problem is to find a way for A to verify B's UID without > > resorting to grovelling in /dev/kmem. This is necessary since A would > > need privileges to open /dev/kmem, and A and B might not be run by > > privileged users. > > /proc/$pid/status is readable by everyone, and contains the real and > effective UID of the process. I'm sorry that's incorrect, but that's for playing. You didn't read the rest of my message, did you. I said that I'd already thought of using /proc; I also said that in order for that to work, I would need to know B's PID first (or am I supposed to just pull $pid out of thin air). Learning the PID of B is just as big a problem as learning the UID of B. Also, it doesn't work if, for some reason, PROCFS isn't configured in the kernel or /proc isn't mounted. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "If you're ever in trouble, go to the CTR. Ask for Bill. He will help you." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 07:00:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA23062 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from hil-img-1.compuserve.com (hil-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.177.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA22994 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:00:05 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by hil-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA06638; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:59:27 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:54:25 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1659 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611250959_MC1-C33-8F40@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1659 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-20-96 09:29:00 AM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1659 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 07:00:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA23073 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.206.133]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA23027 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:00:09 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA09539; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:59:32 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:54:25 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1659 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611250959_MC1-C33-8F40@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id JAA13249; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:29:39 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27555; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA05019 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 06:00:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 06:00:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611201400.GAA05019@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1659 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Wednesday, 20 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1659 In this issue: Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: split speed sio port? Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Kernel calls - args in registers Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Kernel calls - args in registers Re: arpresolve errors Re: Voice Recognition (URGENT) Re: Kernel calls - args in registers Re: arpresolve errors RELENG_2_2 and CVS Recuperating a DOS partition DLT4000 bootup problems gated's weirdness (Was: arpresolve errors) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Greco Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:00:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing > And we want to eliminate the need for so many ip addresses so that we > can get rid of all the ip address conflicts that we can't seem to trace > down. > > Any one have a good method of finding an ip address conflict? Don't know about the rest, but typically I would suggest that the above suggests a certain lack of networking discipline. :-( Usually IP address conflicts arise when someone has created a network that is too large. I usually become uncomfortable somewhere around 8 or 16 nodes, but then I am a bit paranoid. :-) Ideally, in a school environment, each networked classroom or lab should be on its own subnet, or perhaps several subnets. When the machines are configured, use a labeler to note the machine's IP address on the front of the machine. Preferably devise some logical mechanism for numbering, such as sequential numbering, so that when students pull off the labels, it is still pretty easy to figure it out. If you do that and keep no more than, maybe, 16 machines on a network, then you only have 16 machines to check when a problem arises. If they are all in the same room, this is pretty easy. As far as your address space concerns, in your scenario I would probably consider using 10-net addresses, a proxy Web server, and a NAT device to provide continued access to Internet services. The 10-net thing works really nice even for a large school, because you can use the second octet to designate building, third octet to designate room, and fourth octet to designate machine number. ... JG ------------------------------ From: Adam David Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 04:27:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: split speed sio port? > > This is all very well, but when upstream is not (yet?) willing to implement > > such measures themselves and will not trust software that is located outside > > of their direct control, one has to make do with what is available. > > Huh? How does this affect anything? Or are you saying that "upstream" > insists that you use an asymmetrical link? It is at present the only way we can transmit more than we receive, without paying through the nose for the ability to receive more. This is because we are required to pay per-kb rate for 25% of available incoming bandwidth even if we only actually use 10%. (I don't think anyone else is happy with this billing arrangement either, except for the biller). > > Of course, a proven product might catch their interest in terms of > > suitability. > > Hey, go for it 8) What was the name of that product again, and does it have a URL? :) Adam ------------------------------ From: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:25:50 +1100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Nik Clayton writes: > Terry Lambert writes: > > This is the rub. PERL is not stable over the release cycle period for > > FreeBSD. People are *always* complaining "why don't you upgrade your > > PERL?", even when it it well known that an upgrade frequently requires > > updating all of the PERL-dependent scripts to the new syntax, since > > the syntax is not sufficiently stable. > > As someone who spends a reasonable amount of the working day coding in > Perl, I don't think this is a particularly valid point, particularly in > comparison to the moving target that is Tcl/Tk. In the past four years > Perl 4.036 (/usr/bin/perl on 2.1.5 and below) has been the standard, > rock-solid version on the 4.branch, while 5.0 was the new, OO biased > version. Yes. I have to think carefully when trying to come up with something works under perl4 as well. :) The comment about perl4 being dead *is* very true it is no longer supported. Let's see.. excluding things provided for perl development, in the - -current distribution we have the following scripts: /usr/bin/catman /usr/bin/keyinfo /usr/bin/killall /usr/bin/makewhatis /usr/bin/sgmlfmt /usr/bin/whereis /usr/bin/which /usr/sbin/adduser (and presumably add/rmgroup & removeuser?) /usr/sbin/kbdmap /usr/sbin/spkrtest /usr/sbin/vidfont It is interesting to note that all of these scripts run unchanged under perl5. So the first paragraph quoted above is bogus in any case. > There is an issue moving from 4.036 to 5.x, as the syntax did change > in a few places between the two -- not counting the option of a new > OOish syntax, which wouldn't break older scripts anyway. Most obviously > where '@' in strings suddenly needed to backslash-escaped. This broke > a lot of things that dealt with e-mail addresses. Yes. That is perhaps the most pertinent change, and the one that is most likely to affect anyone who is dependant on perl4. There are others, but most dependancies are fairly obscure. > Not much in the way of hard facts there, but this seems to be an opinion > only thread anyway. I can only confirm the same experience. All I will add is that a decision not to upgrade perl (not necessarily follow the bleeding edge at all!) is just putting off the inevitable with the probability of creating likely dependancies on perl4 that apparently don't currently exist. > Having said that, I don't think Perl should be moved to the base system > anyway (assuming that base system is whatever you get when you install > bin.xx for the first time). But this is for the same reason I don't > particularly want tcl in there either -- they're extensions to the > system -- I have no objections to seeing a new dist category, something > like 'cool-things-we-think-you'll-enjoy', but I tend to prefer to > build these things myself. I could not agree more. Personally, i think perl5 is *too big* to include in the base system anyway, and comes with a large amount of cruft that noone will use unless they develop applications in perl or run a lot of third-party perl scripts (mainly web sites). For the few perl scripts in the system, only the sgml formatter will be the loss (unless something in the install depends upon it? Can't say I've looked). Almost everything else can be easily replaced, either with a shell script or a small C program (which I'll happily volunteer to take care of, if the removal of perl4 from the base dist is the preferred way to go). It appears to me at least that the reluctance to "upgrade" to perl is due to its size. I agree with that. It's just that as a developer who uses perl, having perl4 on the system is a pain in the rear. Yes, sure, I know I won't affect finished scripts that use #!, but (a) it is a waste of space just for a few scripts, (b) for a variety of reasons, I'd prefer to have /usr/bin in my path before /usr/local/bin and while developing scripts, I often need to call perl from the command line (with -d, for example), and (c) nothing perl 4 does can't be done by perl 5. David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn ------------------------------ From: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:28:42 +1100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Terry Lambert writes: > The problem, again, is that the change cycle on PERL has historically > been too short to base a FreeBSD release on a PERL release... PERL > is moving faster than FreeBSD, in other words. Which then begs the question - why use perl at all? Yes, I use it quite a bit, but in a base distribution I don't really see it as an appropriate tool. It is certainly easier that programming in, say, bourne shell, and probably significantly faster too. But I still think it is a mistake it being part of the base system. David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn ------------------------------ From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:21:39 +0100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! According to Terry Lambert: > I realize this. However, it requires going over your existing PERL > code to make sure it doesn't break from the syntactical changes. 99% of the time, all you need is "perl -cw your.script". > What was the delay between when people started saying we should upgrade > to PERL 5.x and the release of MajorDomo 1.93? I think 1.93 was released before that moment. The first really usable version was 5.001m (5.000 should have never seen the light and 5.001 was still very buggy). > The problem, again, is that the change cycle on PERL has historically > been too short to base a FreeBSD release on a PERL release... PERL > is moving faster than FreeBSD, in other words. Yes, that's why I think it is better to wait for 5.004 and use this one. - -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #28: Sun Nov 10 13:37:41 MET 1996 ------------------------------ From: "John S. Dyson" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:32:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Kernel calls - args in registers > Travis Hassloch x231 stands accused of saying: > > > > One thing I thought might make a worthwhile gain is to make all > > intrakernel calls use registers -- and if possible, all kernel calls. > > I think Bruce will have opinions here, but IMHO using registers for > arg passing isn't much of a win, especially on the x86 where there > are so few of them. > I have an opinion also... I have already recompiled much of the FreeBSD kernel to use the register passing convention. Not really worth it. F.E. our approx 500-530usec fork perf (on a P5-166) doesn't budge almost at all with a change in calling convention... The pgcc compiler or - -fomit-frame-pointer makes much more difference (if it works to compile your kernel :-) -- sometimes "advanced options" don't work to compile ours...) (BTW, even that difference is in the 5% or so range.) I think that algorithmic improvements in the kernel are where "it is." It is likely that if we use the register passing conventions in the kernel -- it'll be because there is a worthwhile improvement. I haven't seen a significant one -- YET. If you see one -- let me know!!! John ------------------------------ From: Gary Clark II Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:44:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Terry Lambert wrote: > > > FreeBSD. People are *always* complaining "why don't you upgrade your > > > PERL?", even when it it well known that an upgrade frequently requires > > > updating all of the PERL-dependent scripts to the new syntax, since > > > the syntax is not sufficiently stable. > > > > Between Perl4 and Perl5, the changes are documented in perltrap. Between > > 5.x there have been very few syntaxic changes. You won't notice many > > changes between 5.003 and 5.004 in that respect. The only major change that hit people was that the @ was no longer escaped by default. > > I realize this. However, it requires going over your existing PERL > code to make sure it doesn't break from the syntactical changes. Takes very little time. Just like taking a C program to C++. > > The problem is the dependencies for the existing code, and that fact > that if the maintainers of the code haven't "upgraded", then we become > promary support for the "upgraded" scripts. Most programs run fine with NO changes. > > This would have been less of a problem in the 5.x changeover if the > PERL distribution had a tool to upgrade scripts over the syntactic > changes. Why don't C++ compliers supply the same thing? I've seen programmers get bit by the same thing. > > > > > For FreeBSD, the biggest problem is PERL dependent ports and MajorDomo; > > > PERL upgrades have been delayed for MajorDomo more than once in the > > > past. > > > > Majordomo has been Perl5 compatible as of 1.93. 1.94 runs fine under it. > > What was the delay between when people started saying we should upgrade > to PERL 5.x and the release of MajorDomo 1.93? > > The problem, again, is that the change cycle on PERL has historically > been too short to base a FreeBSD release on a PERL release... PERL > is moving faster than FreeBSD, in other words. HuH???!!!??? > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Gary - -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups mail info@GBData.COM for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/freebsd-faq.ascii ------------------------------ From: Gary Clark II Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:58:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Michael Smith wrote: > Ollivier Robert stands accused of saying: > > > > Perl 5.004 is rounding the corner. 5.003_08 just came out and 5.003_09 will > > be 5.004-candidate. > > > > Many thinks are broken (even if people don't tumble often on them) and > > 5.004 should be stable. > > Ok. I am still waiting for a hand up from someone who has a > contrib-ready perl5. If someone can point me towards the how-to contrib docs I'll do this. Considering I did the perl4 b-make and the commit, I have no problems doing this. > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ Garyy - -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups mail info@GBData.COM for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/freebsd-faq.ascii ------------------------------ From: Bruce Evans Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:51:32 +1100 Subject: Re: Kernel calls - args in registers >I've been looking at this a bit lately, and noticed that, as you >point out, gcc doesn't use registers on the x86 by default (IMHO it should >have, at least if you can configure that for free Unixes -- it's not like we >had a historical baggage commercial compiler to be call-level compatible >with). Well, gcc didn't officially support passing args in registers until 2.7, and it still doesn't quite work - function calls through a pointer sometimes clobber one of the args. Example: FreeBSD qsort(). My version of FreeBSD works when compiled with -mrtd (callee pops), but I gave up on getting -mregparm=N to work when I hit this problem. - -mrtd doesn't make much difference. It gives slightly smaller code and is a few percent faster on 486's (because `ret N' is just as fast as `ret') and a few percent slower on Pentiums (because `ret N' is one nonpairable cylce slower than `ret'). - -mregparm=2 gives slightly larger code. I think it won't make much difference to the speed when it works. Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bill Fenner Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:52:13 PST Subject: Re: arpresolve errors In message you wr ite: >Are messages like the one below indicative of mbuf problems, or something >else? Generally they're indicative of routing problems. >"arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo for 203.x.y.49" What's the routing table look like for 203.x.y.49? >A check through the messages file >shows that it only happens to CSLIP links which are gateways to remote >nets/subnets. Are you using gated? gated likes to add bogus host routes which confuse the routing table. There's code in 2.2 that handles this. Bill ------------------------------ From: Amancio Hasty Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:28:56 -0800 Subject: Re: Voice Recognition (URGENT) Yeap, what about it . I remember about a year ago approaching the project to import technology to FreeBSD and the folks over there where not interested so what is the status nowdays? Amancio >From The Desk Of Andrew Y Ng : > Hmmm.. Chk out the CMU Speech Lab: > http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/speech/ > > /ayn > > -- > Andrew Y Ng http://andrew.Ngbert.org > Carnegie Mellon University; ECE major, Music minor > campus ph: 412/862-2836; voice mail: 412/268-6700 x30027 > talk: finger ayn@andrew.Ngbert.org for online status. > finger ayn@CMU.EDU for more info, > such as my public key, geekcode, snail address, etc. > > NGBERT! http://www.Ngbert.org > ------------------------------ From: Jonathan Stone Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:32:23 -0800 Subject: Re: Kernel calls - args in registers >It is likely that if we use the register passing conventions in the >kernel -- it'll be because there is a worthwhile improvement. I haven't >seen a significant one -- YET. If you see one -- let me know!!! The x86 just doesn't have enough registers for this to be worth much. But for NetBSD, looking in a non-x86-specific direction: I experimented with this on 68030s running More/BSD (Mt.Xinu's version of the Utah port of 4.3bsd-Tahoe, or thereabouts) to hp300s. I measured worthwhile savings from both passing arguments in registers and using callee-pops for non-variadic functions. That was with gcc 1.33; I don't know how much saving to expect from gcc2, if and when the -mregparm works again. I'd definitely encourage the NetBSD people with access to m68k machines to try it, though. Are there better alternatives, these days, than rewriting all the locore routines to use different calling convention? Like maybe adding attributes to a declaration to disable -mrtd? And of course, passing _syscall_ args in registers rather than on the normal stack saves copyin/copyout, and reduces syscall latency, which is a Good Thing for us time vultures. ------------------------------ From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:40:15 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: arpresolve errors On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Bill Fenner wrote: I wrote: > >Are messages like the one below indicative of mbuf problems, or something > >else? > > Generally they're indicative of routing problems. > >"arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo for 203.x.y.49" > > What's the routing table look like for 203.x.y.49? 203.x.y.48/28 203.x.y.49 UGc 203.x.y.49 203.x.y.34 UH 203.s.t 203.x.y.49 UGc > >A check through the messages file > >shows that it only happens to CSLIP links which are gateways to remote > >nets/subnets. > > Are you using gated? gated likes to add bogus host routes which confuse > the routing table. There's code in 2.2 that handles this. Yes, I am using gated. Yes, there are host routes, but they seem to make sense (e.g. the one listed above) for the point to point links. And the PPP-connected networks on this and another 2.1.5R terminal server have *not* exhibited this [arpresolve] behaviour, although the routing entries are equivalent. Thanks, Danny ------------------------------ From: Michael Hancock Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:40:58 +0900 (JST) Subject: RELENG_2_2 and CVS I discovered that my CVS tree was corrupt after trying the following: cd /jaz cvs co -r RELENG_2_2 src # -r implies -P The checkout failed and later that night my cvsup cron job failed with the error "Possible reference of NIL". So I rm -rf /jaz/cvs; cvsup'ed the tree again; rm -rf /jaz/src; checked out 2.2 release; built a new kernel and things look fine now for testing 2.2. /jaz/src was current. Which brings me to a question, should I have done a cvs release src? The man pages say that doing a checkout-only is ok, but seems to recommend doing a release beforehand. What do most people do in practice, especially with something as large as the entire FreeBSD src tree? Regards, Mike Hancock ------------------------------ From: Jean-Pierre Morant Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:35:53 +0100 Subject: Recuperating a DOS partition Hello ! being a bit short on swap space I would like to reuse a DOS partition on my wd1 (second ESDI) disk. I've used fdisk to assign that partition to FreeBSD, then edited the fstab so that /dev/wd1s1f (the next available partition name) is seen as a swap partition. Apaprently there is a step inbetween that I'm missing : how to tell FreeBSD that the second (nr 1) partition on disk wd1 should be used as /dev/wd1s1f ? Do anybody know what I'm forgetting ? Thanks ADDITIONNAL INFO ===== Now, if I type swapon -a I get : swapon: /dev/wd1s1f: Device not configured fdisk /dev/wd1 tells me that : ******* Working on device /dev/wd1 ******* parameters extracted from in-core disklabel are: cylinders=244160 heads=1 sectors/track=1 (1 blks/cyl) Figures below won't work with BIOS for partitions not in cyl 1 parameters to be used for BIOS calculations are: cylinders=244160 heads=1 sectors/track=1 (1 blks/cyl) Warning: BIOS sector numbering starts with sector 1 Information from DOS bootblock is: The data for partition 0 is: sysid 165,(FreeBSD/NetBSD/386BSD) start 0, size 244160 (119 Meg), flag 80 beg: cyl 0/ sector 1/ head 0; end: cyl 1023/ sector 1/ head 0 The data for partition 1 is: sysid 165,(FreeBSD/NetBSD/386BSD) start 0, size 244160 (119 Meg), flag 0 beg: cyl 0/ sector 0/ head 0; end: cyl 447/ sector 1/ head 0 The data for partition 2 is: The data for partition 3 is: where partition 0 is another file system mounted and used as : /dev/wd1s1e on /tmp (local) - -- Jean-Pierre Morant c/o MARBEN S.A./N.V. La vie serait tellement Boulevard du Souverain,400, Vorstlaan plus facile 1160 Bruxelles Si seulement Belgium nous avions les sources.... + 32 2 663 1130 (phone) + 32 2 663 1199 (fax) http://www.marben.be jpm@marben.be ------------------------------ From: mark@plato.salford.ac.uk (Mark Powell) Date: 20 Nov 1996 12:48:22 -0000 Subject: DLT4000 bootup problems I was testing a DLT4000 tape on my system. However, 2.2-960801 hung when the kernel was probing the scsi devices. Any ideas why? Yes, it was properly terminated and I'd slotted it in using the same cable, terminator and scsi ID of the DAT drive that is usually on that machine. - -- Mark Powell - Unix Information Officer - Clifford Whitworth Building A.I.S., University of Salford, Salford, Manchester, UK. Tel: +44 161 745 5936 Fax: +44 161 736 3596 Email: mark@ucsalf.ac.uk finger mark@ucsalf.ac.uk (for PGP key) Home Page ------------------------------ From: J Wunsch Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:08:00 +0100 (MET) Subject: gated's weirdness (Was: arpresolve errors) As Bill Fenner wrote: > Are you using gated? gated likes to add bogus host routes which confuse > the routing table. There's code in 2.2 that handles this. Btw., people might remember that i've once asked about some complaints GateD spits onto the console of our modem server whenever somebody logs in via PPP. Now that i've finally got 'round yesterday to DTRT and subnet our IP address space, my PPP peers are no longer inside the ether address range, and i could throw the d*mn proxyARP hackery overboards... Needless to say, GateD no longer complains! It works fine as expected, as soon as a PPP interface comes up, GateD notices it and offers routing for this peer. - -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1659 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 07:24:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA25145 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:24:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from rk.wbs.com ([205.136.189.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA25103 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:24:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rashid@localhost) by rk.wbs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA10615; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:22:33 -0500 (EST) From: Rashid Karimov Message-Id: <199611251522.KAA10615@rk.wbs.com> Subject: Re: Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb disks. To: dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (David Dawes) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:22:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: mrcpu@cdsnet.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611240542.QAA16133@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> from "David Dawes" at Nov 24, 96 04:42:07 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I had read/write at about 18+ Mb/sec ( didn't use IOZONE though - was doing dd on huge files - 300+ MB, back and forth between /dev/ull , /dev/zero and CCD based 25GB partition. Total of 3 wide AHAs and 6 Seagate Barracudas were used at 200 Mhz PPRo MB by ASUS. That was quite a box ( was used for USENET news ). Sounded like a subway train all the time ( 6 HDs !), was very stable and fast. As far as I remember I had 256 in the ccd.conf file - it gave about even read and write speeds. > > >Just playing around with CCD and 2 Atlas's on a P120 2940UW, 128MB RAM. > > > >It kept the sys time at 80-90%, so maybe a faster CPU would help. > > > > > > > > IOZONE writes a 512 Megabyte sequential file consisting of > > 8192 records which are each 65536 bytes in length. > > It then reads the file. It prints the bytes-per-second > > rate at which the computer can read and write files. > > > > > >Writing the 512 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...42.148438 seconds > >Reading the file...37.859375 seconds > > > >IOZONE performance measurements: > > 12737623 bytes/second for writing the file > > 14180659 bytes/second for reading the file (It was over 15 on one > >run). > > What ccd parameters are you using? > > David > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 07:42:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA27402 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from tellab5.tellabs.com (tellab5.lisle.tellabs.com [138.111.243.28]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA27385 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:42:40 -0800 (PST) From: mikebo@tellabs.com Received: from sunc210.tellabs.com by tellab5.tellabs.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0vS3Ac-0004gMC; Mon, 25 Nov 96 09:42 CST Received: by sunc210.tellabs.com (SMI-8.6/1.9) id JAA08367; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:41:35 -0600 Message-Id: <199611251541.JAA08367@sunc210.tellabs.com> Subject: Digests are truncated? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:41:34 -0600 (CST) Cc: mikebo (Mike Borowiec) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Who is the maintainer of the mailing list software? I subscribe to the hackers and questions digests. I noticed that this morning the majority of digests contain only a fraction of the articles in the table of contents. Is the mailer software broken, or is something wrong with my corporate mail exchanger? Below is only one example of the truncation I'm seeing... Regards, - Mike Forwarded message: > From freefall.freebsd.org!owner-hackers-digest Sat Nov 23 23:02:06 1996 > From: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org > Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 20:53:33 -0800 (PST) > Message-Id: <199611240453.UAA27942@freefall.freebsd.org> > To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1674 > Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org > Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org > Precedence: bulk > > > hackers-digest Saturday, 23 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1674 > > In this issue: > Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2).) > RE: Install question > kernel not making > rarpd > Re: rarpd > dgb driver with interrupts > Re: Has anybody addressed this "ping" problem? Is it even an issue with FreeBSD? > Re: descriptors and sockets and pipes, oh my > Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 > Re: rarpd > Re: rarpd > Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2).) > Re: rarpd > Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 > RE: RealAudio for FreeBSD! > Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb disks. > Re: Pentium Pro status > Re: Pentium Pro status > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Warner Losh > Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 15:50:12 -0700 > Subject: Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2).) > > In message > Marc Slemko writes: > : I want to try to keep the very political and religious issue of running > : sendmail as a non-root user out of the discussion of non-root users > : binding to ports <1024 as much as possible because the sendmail issue > : isn't something that can be solved easily. > : > : I see little room for bugs in the kernel implementation of non-root users > : binding to ports <1024; there is lots of room for problems in the use of > : such a feature by programs, but that is really a different issue; > : probably more important, but different and far more involved. > > True. I a trivial way to do this would be for programs that wish to > bind to a port < 1024 would be as follows. Consider inetd. Now, > let's say there is another such program that creates a listening > socket, forks, setuid to something, execs a server program (say > sendmail). This server program can then have access to that port w/o > running as root. No need for the kernel to get involved at all. When > the server wishes to close the port, he does so. Then, when the > server wants to reopen it, that server would just exit. The > controlling program would then refork, etc and then the server would > be back in business. While all servers that wish to bind to ports < > 1024 and not run as root would have to be configured in a central > file, this accomplishes most things that the kernel interface talked > about would do. Heck, you could even merge this functionality into > inetd, or have a new program, inetd2 for lack of a better name, do it. > > Maybe I've missed something here... I don't see a compelling need for > this facility in the kernel, at least for the most common cases that > I've seen examples for. I can imagine complex programs desiring some > way to bind mutliple ports, or not have to exit to get back into the > swing of things. > > I'll leave the design issues of sendmail alone as well :-).... > > Warner > > ------------------------------ > > From: Edwin Burley > Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 17:42:30 -0500 (EST) > Subject: RE: Install question > > On 23-Nov-96 Joe McGuckin wrote: > >> > >I have a second IDE drive that I want to be FreeBSD. The first disk is > >Windoze. > > > >Right now I have the second drive hooked up as the primary (just to > >make sure there aren't any accidents that would wipe out the first drive). > >After FreeBSD is installed, I plan on making the freebsd drive the secondary > >IDE drive. > > go ahead and setup the system the way you want it. And then run the setup disk, > but remember that at anytime that something can go wrong, so it is a good idea > to have back up of everything...if you are getting 2.2, it may be better to down > lownd > it all to the system before starting..I could not get the modem working in setup > -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Borowiec - mikebo@tellabs.com - Tellabs Operations, Inc. Senior Member of Technical Staff 4951 Indiana Avenue, MS 63 630-512-8211 FAX: 630-512-7099 Lisle, IL 60532 USA -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 07:50:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA28180 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:50:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA28111 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:49:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA05926; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:48:34 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199611251548.KAA05926@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: looking for an idea To: sprice@hiwaay.net (Steve Price) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:48:32 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Steve Price" at Nov 25, 96 08:57:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Steve Price had to walk into mine and say: > On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Bill Paul wrote: > > # I said that I'd already thought of using /proc; I also said that in > # order for that to work, I would need to know B's PID first (or am I > # supposed to just pull $pid out of thin air). Learning the PID of B is > # just as big a problem as learning the UID of B. Also, it doesn't work > # if, for some reason, PROCFS isn't configured in the kernel or /proc > # isn't mounted. > # > > This won't help when PROCFS is not compiled in but... Can't the > library code that B uses to establish the connection with A, do > the getpid() and give that to A? Take the power of specifying the > pid away from the coder and put it in the trusted hands of the > library. Not a perfect solution, but may work as a fallback sol'n. > Steve What you're suggesting is basically security through obscurity. This would only work if we were a commercial OS like Slowlaris where source code is not available and the vendor intentionally fails to document the unerlying interface. Since we provide all source code, there's nothing to stop the user from splitting the RPC library out of the libc source tree (or making his own libc), modifying a few things, and then linking a malicious program that doesn't play by the rules. What I want is a way for keyserv to learn the UID of the caller that can't be spoofed unless an attacker can: - compromise keyserv itself - compromise the kernel - break root through some other means, in which case all bets are off anyway Again, it seems like the SysV IPC system calls are the only ones that do what I want, which is really too bad. You'd think BSD would have something equivalent. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "If you're ever in trouble, go to the CTR. Ask for Bill. He will help you." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 07:59:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA28986 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateway.cybernet.com (gateway.cybernet.com [192.245.33.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA28972 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from spiffy.cybernet.com (spiffy.cybernet.com [192.245.33.55]) by gateway.cybernet.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08662 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:06:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.5-beta [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:43:25 -0500 (EST) Organization: Cybernet Systems Corporation From: Mark Taylor To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Hang your machine with ScrollLock Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here's a good one I did the other day (by accident): I have a cron job that runs every two minutes to display the uptime on the console (to make sure that it keeps scrolling) on the company's name server (uptime > /dev/console). I put the console in scroll-lock mode by accident. About 0.5 hours later, name resolving was dead. I went to the name server machine and saw about 20 or so of these 'uptime' processes running, waiting to output to the console. So many of these were running (along with CRON processes and sh processes) that the system could not create more processes (as the syslog told me). As soon as I hit the scroll-lock key, everything was fine- all of the uptime processes completed, and name serving went on as usual. Just something to think about. I don't have any bright ideas about a workaround. Maybe auto-disabling ScrollLock mode when there are 'too may' processes waiting on vty output? I know, I know, I should not do stupid things like this. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark J. Taylor Network R&D Engineer Cybernet Systems mtaylor@cybernet.com 727 Airport Blvd. PHONE (313) 668-2567 Ann Arbor, MI 48108 FAX (313) 668-8780 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 07:59:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA29023 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from novell.com (prv-mail20.Provo.Novell.COM [137.65.40.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA29013 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from INET-PRV-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:59:10 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:58:43 -0700 From: Darren Davis To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Inferno for FreeBSD. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was checking out the Inferno Web page http://inferno.lucent.com. For those who are not familiar with this, it is a distributed OS/platform similar in concept to Java being developed at Bell Labs by the team that developed Plan 9. Well, I saw that it was available for several Unix platforms as well as that Windows trash. FreeBSD was not listed as one of the supported platforms. So I decided to take the oportunity to use their suggestion link and put in the suggestion that they do a FreeBSD port. Well, I got a response back from Phil Winterbottom (One of Bell Labs finest) stating that I was the first to make this request, and if there was enough interest in a FreeBSD port that they would do one. Well, are WE interested? If so, use their suggestion box and lets get a FreeBSD port of Inferno. Thanks, Darren From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 08:51:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA13291 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:51:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA13249 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA15011; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:50:05 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611251650.KAA15011@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Hang your machine with ScrollLock To: mtaylor@cybernet.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:50:05 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Mark Taylor" at Nov 25, 96 10:43:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Here's a good one I did the other day (by accident): > > I have a cron job that runs every two minutes to display the > uptime on the console (to make sure that it keeps scrolling) > on the company's name server (uptime > /dev/console). > > I put the console in scroll-lock mode by accident. About > 0.5 hours later, name resolving was dead. I went to the > name server machine and saw about 20 or so of these 'uptime' > processes running, waiting to output to the console. So many > of these were running (along with CRON processes and sh processes) > that the system could not create more processes (as the syslog > told me). > > As soon as I hit the scroll-lock key, everything was fine- > all of the uptime processes completed, and name serving > went on as usual. > > > Just something to think about. I don't have any bright ideas > about a workaround. Maybe auto-disabling ScrollLock mode when > there are 'too may' processes waiting on vty output? > > I know, I know, I should not do stupid things like this. :) I second this. I would be quite content if there was a way to maybe set this with vidcontrol. I noticed kbdcontrol has a "-h" option, if this sets the number of scrollback lines saved, maybe if set to 0 it disables scroll-lock. I tried playing with it on a 2.0.5R box to see what it did and got a panic: multiple frees. Sigh. Mildly related- Stupid /etc/ttys scripts follow: -------%<------- I use this one on various server machines. % cat /usr/local/bin/topcons #! /bin/sh - PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin; export PATH device=/dev/${1} cons=`echo ${1} | sed 's:ttyv::'` cons=`expr ${cons} + 1` if [ ! -c ${device} ]; then echo "${device} is not character special device!" 1>&2 exit 1 fi TERM=cons25; export TERM sleep 5 < ${device}& stty sane tty crt < ${device} reset < ${device} > ${device} clear < ${device} > ${device} switchcons ${cons} < ${device} top -q < ${device} > ${device} clear < ${device} > ${device} exit 0 -------%<------- I use this one on various terminal servers. % cat /usr/local/bin/whoson #! /bin/sh - PATH=/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin; export PATH TERM=cons25; export TERM ( while true; do clear finger -h echo "" echo "-------------------------------------------------------------------------------" echo "" last -10 sleep 15 done ) < /dev/ttyv3 2>&1 > /dev/ttyv3 -------%<------- Both are clearly not very polished. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 08:52:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA13629 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA13542 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:52:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA06060; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:51:40 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199611251651.LAA06060@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: looking for an idea To: sprice@hiwaay.net (Steve Price) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:51:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@Freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Steve Price" at Nov 25, 96 10:05:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@Freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Steve Price had to walk into mine and say: > On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Bill Paul wrote: > > # Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Steve Price had > # to walk into mine and say: > # > # What you're suggesting is basically security through obscurity. > # This would only work if we were a commercial OS like Slowlaris where > # source code is not available and the vendor intentionally fails to > # document the unerlying interface. Since we provide all source code, > # there's nothing to stop the user from splitting the RPC library out > # of the libc source tree (or making his own libc), modifying a few > # things, and then linking a malicious program that doesn't play by > # the rules. > # > # What I want is a way for keyserv to learn the UID of the caller that > # can't be spoofed unless an attacker can: > # > # - compromise keyserv itself > # - compromise the kernel > # - break root through some other means, in which case all bets are off > # anyway > # > > Ah, right you are. They could only compromise their own box by > twiddling and recompiling the source, unless of course keyserv > was running on some remote machine and they compromised the > keyserv library routines to send pid=1 which is guaranteed to be > root privileged. So you are right definitely right. Please can > my suggestion and label it as 'fit for smudgens only'. :) Well, you'd be surprised at how many commercial OS vendors will actually do stuff like that :) > # Again, it seems like the SysV IPC system calls are the only ones that > # do what I want, which is really too bad. You'd think BSD would have > # something equivalent. > # > > It's a crying shame. Hmm, I wonder how SysV's IPC system calls > get the pid then or do they. I don't profess to know a great deal > about IPC but you have peaked my interest, so off I go to dig up some > dirt. > > Steve Well, since they're system calls, they can look at the proc structure of the calling process and assign things accordingly. For example, when you call msgget() to create a message queue, the kernel creates a msqid_ds structure which contains an ipc_perm structure that tells you who created the message queue, who the current owner of the queue is (you can give ownership to someone else), what the access rights are, and some other useful tidbits. The msqid_ds structure itself has other information, like what was the last PID to do a msgrcv() on the message queue and who was the last PID to do a msgsnd(). All of this is set up inside the kernel, beyond the control of the caller. And the cuid (creator UID) in the ipc_perm structure can't be changed by the caller. What I'm experimenting with now is to have the caller (B) create a message queue and send a message containing its PID. The server (A) then reads the message from the queue and does an IPC_STAT to read the msqid_ds structure. This tells is the UID of the caller that created the queue, and the PID of the last person to use it. If the PID in the structure doesn't match the one sent in the message, A rejects the request. I still don't think this is 100% correct though. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "If you're ever in trouble, go to the CTR. Ask for Bill. He will help you." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 09:34:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA22587 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:34:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu (delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.5.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22506 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:33:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu (bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.75.14]) by delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu (8.8.3/8.7.3/BSD-4.0) with SMTP id LAA19622; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:33:41 -0600 (CST) Received: by bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA10822; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:33:35 +0600 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:33:35 +0600 Message-Id: <9611251733.AA10822@bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu> To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com Cc: peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611250144.TAA13851@brasil.moneng.mei.com> (message from Joe Greco on Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:44:29 -0600 (CST)) Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 From: Tim Pierce Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco said: > > Have you looked at qmail? The bits exposed to the outside world don't > > even run as root. EVER. > > As a matter of fact, the last Sendmail security problem involved a bug > that I suspect people would also have claimed "[the] bits [that are] > exposed to the outside world don't even run as root." I sincerely hope you don't think of this as a point in sendmail's favor. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 09:36:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23205 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:36:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ravenock.cybercity.dk (disn40.cybercity.dk [194.16.57.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23050 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ravenock.cybercity.dk (8.8.2/8.7.3) id SAA10053; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:38:49 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199611251738.SAA10053@ravenock.cybercity.dk> Subject: Re: Hang your machine with ScrollLock To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:38:38 +0100 (MET) From: "Soren Schmidt" Cc: mtaylor@cybernet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611251650.KAA15011@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from "Joe Greco" at Nov 25, 96 10:50:05 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Joe Greco who wrote: > > > Here's a good one I did the other day (by accident): > > > > I have a cron job that runs every two minutes to display the > > uptime on the console (to make sure that it keeps scrolling) > > on the company's name server (uptime > /dev/console). > > > > I put the console in scroll-lock mode by accident. About > > 0.5 hours later, name resolving was dead. I went to the > > name server machine and saw about 20 or so of these 'uptime' > > processes running, waiting to output to the console. So many > > of these were running (along with CRON processes and sh processes) > > that the system could not create more processes (as the syslog > > told me). > > > > As soon as I hit the scroll-lock key, everything was fine- > > all of the uptime processes completed, and name serving > > went on as usual. I belive this to be fixed in what was 2.2-current long ago... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 09:43:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA24918 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu (delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.5.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA24903 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:42:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu (bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu [128.135.75.14]) by delphi.bsd.uchicago.edu (8.8.3/8.7.3/BSD-4.0) with SMTP id LAA20420; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:42:20 -0600 (CST) Received: by bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA10825; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:42:18 +0600 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:42:18 +0600 Message-Id: <9611251742.AA10825@bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu> To: nate@mt.sri.com Cc: peter@taronga.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611250109.SAA27018@rocky.mt.sri.com> (message from Nate Williams on Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:09:10 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 From: Tim Pierce Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams said: > I'm with Michael. I trust sendmail much more than something I know > nothing about. This amounts to defending the devil you know over the devil you don't. While that's a sound principle, it's also something of a last line of defense: i.e., there's no reason you can't get to know the other devil a little better. Most of the defenses of sendmail I've seen thus far can be summed up: it's the industry standard, everyone else in the world runs it, any administrator will be instantly at home with it. Hmm -- and I thought that I *wasn't* running Windows! For the record, I currently run neither sendmail nor qmail (not having a net-connected machine). I am not intimately familiar with qmail and am not really in a position to defend it. What I know is that I spend a lot of time with security weenies, and have heard more about qmail in the last several months than about perhaps any other package I'm not personally working on. I'm inclined to believe that it deserves a closer look than the folks here have been willing to give it. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 09:48:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25291 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25259; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA15104; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:47:17 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611251747.LAA15104@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Hang your machine with ScrollLock To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:47:17 -0600 (CST) Cc: mtaylor@cybernet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611251738.SAA10053@ravenock.cybercity.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Nov 25, 96 06:38:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > As soon as I hit the scroll-lock key, everything was fine- > > > all of the uptime processes completed, and name serving > > > went on as usual. > > I belive this to be fixed in what was 2.2-current long ago... My apologies... I was not aware of a fix. I can try it on a 2.2-A box. > Even more code to hack -- will it ever end No, it will not. :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 09:48:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA25302 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25268 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:48:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA15095; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:45:40 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611251745.LAA15095@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: twpierce@bio-3.bsd.uchicago.edu (Tim Pierce) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:45:40 -0600 (CST) Cc: peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9611251733.AA10822@bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu> from "Tim Pierce" at Nov 25, 96 11:33:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Joe Greco said: > > > > Have you looked at qmail? The bits exposed to the outside world don't > > > even run as root. EVER. > > > > As a matter of fact, the last Sendmail security problem involved a bug > > that I suspect people would also have claimed "[the] bits [that are] > > exposed to the outside world don't even run as root." > > I sincerely hope you don't think of this as a point in sendmail's > favor. No, it's simply an argument that the quoted material is obviously and demonstrably false. It would be accurate to say: The bits exposed to the outside world are not intended to be run as root. A bug generally involves running code in a manner that was not intended. Therefore, if there are any bugs, whatsoever, it is easy to demonstrate that there is a potential (the precise nature of which may be currently unknown) for running the bits exposed to the outside world as root. And it is generally easy to prove that any significantly worthwhile bit of code contains bugs. The conclusion: the original statement is a crock. The supporting statement I made: Sendmail recently had a security problem due to code being executed as root that I do not believe was intended to be run as root. I might be wrong, but if so, I can find another example. "Call me skeptical, call me paranoid. You are right in both cases." ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 10:28:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA28171 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:28:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (root@AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA28157 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0vS4u8-0021WAC; Mon, 25 Nov 96 12:33 EST Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA26515; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:40:13 -0600 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:40:13 -0600 From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <199611251740.LAA26515@bonkers.taronga.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail Newsgroups: taronga.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: <199611250434.PAA27300@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <4572.848895649@time.cdrom.com> Organization: none Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199611250434.PAA27300@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, Michael Smith wrote: >I'd also appreciate input from anyone that can see a problem with having >sendmail lying around but not running; if it's thought that this is still >a security risk, then there should be a comment in the handbook section >on mailer security suggesting that it be disabled (nuked, re-moded, etc.). Remoded. It'll still work to *send* mail if it's not running, and there are convenient security holes there too. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 10:42:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA29310 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [199.184.181.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA29293 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:42:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from right.PCS (right.pcs. [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17907; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:09:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id SAA21376; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:40:52 GMT Message-Id: <199611251840.SAA21376@right.PCS> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:40:50 -0600 From: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: looking for an idea References: <199611242122.QAA02399@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611242122.QAA02399@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>; from Bill Paul on Nov 24, 1996 16:22:57 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > semaphore -- Gaaahhh!!). Previously, I also experimented with > sending a file descriptor over the AF_UNIX socket from the client > to the server using sendmsg()/revcmsg(), but this doesn't provide > any useful (i.e. trustworthy) information either. I thought about Hm. I think this is probably the right track. What you want is some way for the process on the other end of the pipe to prove it's identity to the server. How about having the client create a file of mode 000, and then pass that open file descriptor back to the server? Since it's mode 000, only the owner of the file could have opened it (or chowned it to 000). The file can either be created randomly by the client, or specified by the server. The server can then use the fstat() call on the passed file descriptor to verify that the mode is 000, and that the file was indeed opened by the remote process. It also gets the uid from the fstat() call. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 11:12:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01834 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01815 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA15280; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:09:37 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611251909.NAA15280@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: twpierce@bio-3.bsd.uchicago.edu (Tim Pierce) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:09:37 -0600 (CST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <9611251742.AA10825@bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu> from "Tim Pierce" at Nov 25, 96 11:42:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Nate Williams said: > > > I'm with Michael. I trust sendmail much more than something I know > > nothing about. > > This amounts to defending the devil you know over the devil you > don't. While that's a sound principle, it's also something of a > last line of defense: i.e., there's no reason you can't get to > know the other devil a little better. Very true. But forcing everyone to become familiar with the other (unknown) devil by default may be a Bad Idea. > Most of the defenses of sendmail I've seen thus far can be summed > up: it's the industry standard, everyone else in the world runs > it, any administrator will be instantly at home with it. Hmm -- > and I thought that I *wasn't* running Windows! If you're running Sendmail, the chances are pretty slim that you are running Windows. > For the record, I currently run neither sendmail nor qmail (not > having a net-connected machine). I am not intimately familiar > with qmail and am not really in a position to defend it. What I > know is that I spend a lot of time with security weenies, and have > heard more about qmail in the last several months than about > perhaps any other package I'm not personally working on. I'm > inclined to believe that it deserves a closer look than the folks > here have been willing to give it. I don't think that's the issue at all. I will certainly agree that Qmail _may_ be more secure than Sendmail. This may be due to: 1) A more recent design, designed explicitly with security in mind. 2) Less people scrutinizing Qmail for security related bugs. 3) Other reasons. (On the other hand, because of #2, Sendmail will tend to have more true bugs shaken out of it. That is not necessarily a defense of Sendmail, it is more like a double-edged sword.) Peter da Silva and I have been having a running argument all morning about this very subject. :-) Here's the deal. 1) If you can make a totally transparent change to something, generally there is no reason not to. 2) If you can make a mostly transparent change to something, you need to document what the difference is, and be ready to deal with the occasional question from the people who have not read the document. 3) If you make a mildly transparent change to something, you still need to document what the difference is, but the set of differences is going to be reasonably large. You will also need to be ready to deal with a steady stream of questions from people who have not read the document. 4) If you make a moderately intrusive change to something, you probably need to start fresh with documentation. Since the delta between old and new is pretty large, there will also be a large stream of questions from people who have not read your document and/or noticed the change. 5) If you make a totally intrusive change, and decide to totally change how something works, you also need new documentation. Since many people will not read your document and/or notice the change, you will have PLENTY of questions, plus a fair number of people who wish for the old behaviour. Version to version changes in Sendmail are usually Class 1 or 2 changes. Switching from Sendmail to Qmail is a Class 4 or Class 5 change, depending on just how compatible Qmail strives to be. If you will notice, there is a penalty associated with a Class 4 or 5 change, in that you will get LOTS of questions flowing in, questions that you would not otherwise have to field. As a largely volunteer operation, I doubt the FreeBSD team has the desire or wish to increase the burden. As someone who spends a fair amount of time trying to assist others, I know that I personally would not wish to have to support a bunch of additional questions that were brought about by some change that ALSO made FreeBSD less of a standard UNIX operating system (standard as compared to what the commercial vendors typically ship). I think it is more than reasonable to offer it as an option: anyone who chooses to install it as an option is aware that their system is nonstandard, hopefully knows where to go for support, and hopefully will not be too upset if the FreeBSD team refers package specific problems to Qmail's support structure. I _personally_ will probably not choose to run a relatively unknown quantity such as Qmail as my MTA. That is a personal choice, separate from the support issues, since I try to do all my own support ;-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 11:26:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02714 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:26:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02707 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA15320; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:24:51 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611251924.NAA15320@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:24:50 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611251740.LAA26515@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Peter da Silva" at Nov 25, 96 11:40:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In article <199611250434.PAA27300@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, > Michael Smith wrote: > >I'd also appreciate input from anyone that can see a problem with having > >sendmail lying around but not running; if it's thought that this is still > >a security risk, then there should be a comment in the handbook section > >on mailer security suggesting that it be disabled (nuked, re-moded, etc.). > > Remoded. It'll still work to *send* mail if it's not running, and there > are convenient security holes there too. Absolutely agree; anything that is suid and is not being used should have the suid bits removed (at a minimum). That extends to other things as well. :-) Anybody want to write a little tool that "knows" how to do this, configurably? Maybe some mtree files plus a little menu widget. A quick inspection reveals that the following files (maybe more) are suid: /bin/rcp /sbin/dump /sbin/rdump /sbin/ping /sbin/restore /sbin/rrestore /sbin/route /sbin/shutdown /sbin/mount_msdos /usr/bin/cu /usr/bin/uucp /usr/bin/uuname /usr/bin/uustat /usr/bin/uux /usr/bin/suidperl /usr/bin/sperl4.036 /usr/bin/at /usr/bin/atq /usr/bin/atrm /usr/bin/batch /usr/bin/chpass /usr/bin/chfn /usr/bin/chsh /usr/bin/ypchpass /usr/bin/ypchfn /usr/bin/ypchsh /usr/bin/keyinit /usr/bin/lock /usr/bin/login /usr/bin/passwd /usr/bin/yppasswd /usr/bin/quota /usr/bin/rdist /usr/bin/rlogin /usr/bin/rsh /usr/bin/su /usr/bin/crontab /usr/bin/lpq /usr/bin/lpr /usr/bin/lprm /usr/bin/newaliases /usr/bin/mailq /usr/bin/register /usr/libexec/uucp/uucico /usr/libexec/uucp/uuxqt /usr/libexec/mail.local /usr/sbin/mrinfo /usr/sbin/mtrace /usr/sbin/ppp /usr/sbin/pppd /usr/sbin/sendmail /usr/sbin/sliplogin /usr/sbin/timedc /usr/sbin/traceroute /usr/games/dm It seems to me that many of these are parts of various system "services" (UUCP, LPR, Mail, YP, rcmds). What might be way cool is a program that presents a menu such as System Services --------------- enabled A) Sendmail disabled B) UUCP disabled C) Printing enabled D) IIJ-PPP disabled E) sliplogin Etc. and allows you to turn each one on or off (basically fixing up the permissions). Just a thought, not a volunteer ;-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 11:32:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03173 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:32:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03135; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26241; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:32:35 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id UAA06640; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:32:03 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.3/keltia-uucp-2.9) id TAA07574; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:40:43 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:40:43 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: ports@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: suidperl (v5.003) - Doesn't work, Any Tips? References: <199611250947.KAA16780@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.51 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2738 In-Reply-To: <199611250947.KAA16780@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Nov 25, 1996 10:47:58 +0100 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to J Wunsch: > This looks as if somebody stupidly assumed the Perl gods are DingTRT. > They aren't. The entire suidperl patches for BSD they've been > emitting don't work. The only thing that works is dropping support > for Posix saved IDs (which was the source of the known suidperl evil It works in Perl5.003_08, out-of-the-box. It doesn't use POSIX saved uid anymore. Perl5.004 will behave the same of course. 309 [19:36] roberto@keltia:~/tmp> ./setu argv[0] ./setu Perl=/usr/local/bin/perl Inside script real uid = 101 effective uid = 0 real gid = 10 2001 2000 117 100 21 20 15 8 6 5 2 0 10 effective gid = 10 2001 2000 117 100 21 20 15 8 6 5 2 0 10 setting effective uid to 1 real uid = 101 effective uid = 1 real gid = 10 2001 2000 117 100 21 20 15 8 6 5 2 0 10 effective gid = 10 2001 2000 117 100 21 20 15 8 6 5 2 0 10 setting effective uid to 0 real uid = 101 effective uid = 0 Here is the script: -rwsr-xr-x 1 root staff 418 Nov 25 19:37 setu #! /usr/local/bin/perl # print "argv[0]=$0 Perl=$^X\n"; print "\nInside script\n"; print "real uid = $<\n effective uid = $>\n"; print "real gid = $(\n effective gid = $)\n"; # print "\nsetting effective uid to 1\n"; $> = 1; $) = $(; print "real uid = $<\n effective uid = $>\n"; print "real gid = $(\n effective gid = $)\n"; print "\nsetting effective uid to 0\n"; $> = 0; print "real uid = $<\n effective uid = $>\n"; -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 12:02:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04958 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04953 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <16304(1)>; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:01:54 PST Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177711>; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:01:09 -0800 To: "K.J.Koster" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Ping of death page. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 96 05:22:50 PST." Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:01:03 PST From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Nov25.120109pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you writ e: >Have you looked at > http://www.sophist.demon.co.uk/ping/index.html Yes, and I saw: 4.4. Safe operating systems Operating system Version Free-BSD 2.0, 2.0.5, 2.1.0, 2.1.5 I'll ask him to add 2.2 and 3.0 to the list. Bill From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 12:03:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05014 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04984 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:03:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id LAA23947; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:53:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3299F91F.59E2B600@whistle.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:53:03 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Lemon CC: Bill Paul , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: looking for an idea References: <199611242122.QAA02399@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> <199611251840.SAA21376@right.PCS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > > semaphore -- Gaaahhh!!). Previously, I also experimented with > > sending a file descriptor over the AF_UNIX socket from the client > > to the server using sendmsg()/revcmsg(), but this doesn't provide > > any useful (i.e. trustworthy) information either. I thought about > > Hm. I think this is probably the right track. What you want is some way > for the process on the other end of the pipe to prove it's identity to the > server. I was thinking more along the lines of the ownership of the fifo :) > > How about having the client create a file of mode 000, and then pass that > open file descriptor back to the server? Since it's mode 000, only the > owner of the file could have opened it (or chowned it to 000). The file can > either be created randomly by the client, or specified by the server. > > The server can then use the fstat() call on the passed file descriptor to > verify that the mode is 000, and that the file was indeed opened by the > remote process. It also gets the uid from the fstat() call. > -- > Jonathan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 12:04:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05075 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05044 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:04:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA23037; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:43:48 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611251943.MAA23037@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:43:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611242323.RAA06615@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Peter da Silva" at Nov 24, 96 05:23:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ ... qmail vs. sendmail ... ] > You ever tried to explain to someone how to set up a virtual domain > in sendmail? I know how to set up a virtual domain in sendmail. How do you do it in qmail? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 12:08:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA05333 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05297 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA23104; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:51:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611251951.MAA23104@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:51:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611250109.SAA27018@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 24, 96 06:09:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ ... sendmail ... ] > It is also the most used/public suid program in the world, subject to > the most scrutinity (and attack). login? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 12:22:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06126 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06109 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id VAA24896; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:22:00 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA21712; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:21:59 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id VAA18142; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:14:37 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611252014.VAA18142@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:14:37 +0100 (MET) Cc: kjk1@ukc.ac.uk (K.J.Koster) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "K.J.Koster" at "Nov 25, 96 01:19:17 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As K.J.Koster wrote: > Altough I am speculating here, I think this has to do with the fact that > I do not have msdosfs compiled in with the kernel. After installing a > different kernel, I asked the system to modload msdosfs, with the above > result. Running a kernel with the wrong LKMs is known to cause you grey hairs. I'm often falling into this trap, but the other way around: by rebooting a new kernel without rebuilding and reinstalling the LKMs first. It's simply a ``Don't do this.'' -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 12:22:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06127 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [199.184.181.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06099 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from right.PCS (right.pcs. [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18167; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:48:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id UAA16145; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:19:45 GMT Message-Id: <199611252019.UAA16145@right.PCS> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:19:44 -0600 From: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul), hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: looking for an idea References: <199611242122.QAA02399@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> <199611251840.SAA21376@right.PCS> <3299F91F.59E2B600@whistle.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3299F91F.59E2B600@whistle.com>; from Julian Elischer on Nov 25, 1996 11:53:03 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Julian Elischer writes: > > Hm. I think this is probably the right track. What you want is some way > > for the process on the other end of the pipe to prove it's identity to the > > server. > > I was thinking more along the lines of the ownership of the fifo :) The server owns the fifo, not the client; it's the client's identity that we want to discover. I suppose you could arrange things so that the client requests a callback to a fifo it set up - but then you need to worry about the client re-directing your callbacks to random locations. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 12:34:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA07089 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:34:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07071 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA23134; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:17:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611252017.NAA23134@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: looking for an idea To: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (Bill Paul) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:17:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: sprice@hiwaay.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611251548.KAA05926@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> from "Bill Paul" at Nov 25, 96 10:48:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What you're suggesting is basically security through obscurity. > This would only work if we were a commercial OS like Slowlaris where > source code is not available and the vendor intentionally fails to > document the unerlying interface. Since we provide all source code, > there's nothing to stop the user from splitting the RPC library out > of the libc source tree (or making his own libc), modifying a few > things, and then linking a malicious program that doesn't play by > the rules. > > What I want is a way for keyserv to learn the UID of the caller that > can't be spoofed unless an attacker can: > > - compromise keyserv itself > - compromise the kernel > - break root through some other means, in which case all bets are off > anyway > > Again, it seems like the SysV IPC system calls are the only ones that > do what I want, which is really too bad. You'd think BSD would have > something equivalent. Well, BSD has the IPC calls, you could use them. But there is nothing that will prevent spoofing from an exceptionally clever person. For instance, I can spoof a Netrek server quite easily by hacking my socket code. All I have to do is let a blessed client respond to interrogations about whether or not it is blessed, and have my own ("borg") client handle/generate all other client/server traffic. Voila: I have just destroyed the ability of an RSA interrogation to determine that the client generating the traffic is not a "borg" because I have just split a socket into two entities, and the key exchange mechanism assumes (incorrectly) that sockets are indivisible entities. There is no way to stop a sufficiently determind person from engaging in an interposition attack on any network transport, short of one time pads. Even a Diffie/Helmen is vunerable to an identity switch, where an interposing party gives the remote side his key instead of your key, and give you his key, and then unwraps and rewraps the data in both directions. Sure, you can't (easily) use a route-broadcast attack for insertion, but it can be done. Even the IPC code *could* be hacked for an interposition attack, the same way. Your program has to make some assumptions somewhere, and when it does, it becomes vunerable. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 12:58:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08777 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:58:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08750 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA23206; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:42:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611252042.NAA23206@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. To: kjk1@ukc.ac.uk (K.J.Koster) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:42:18 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "K.J.Koster" at Nov 25, 96 01:19:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > After rebuilding my kernel, and doing a `make install' on it, I wanted to > make a little change to my autoexec.bat, before rebooting so: > > LikeEver# make install > *chew chew, installed kernel* > LikeEver# mount /msdos > *silence*... Uh, Oh... > *twitch, grasp, cold reboot* > > This is obviously stupidity on my part, for not rebooting immediately > after installing the kernel, but still. > > Altough I am speculating here, I think this has to do with the fact that > I do not have msdosfs compiled in with the kernel. After installing a > different kernel, I asked the system to modload msdosfs, with the above > result. Modules are loaded by: o Create the module as a PIC a.out binary (Position Independent Code). o Link the module against the kernel symbol table, and placing the module at text address zero. o Look at the resulting object size. This is the amount of memory consumed by the post-link module. o Round up to a page boundry. o Call an ioctl on /dev/lkm to reserve that much contiguous space in kernel memory on a page boundry. This is the address at which you will load the module; it must be contiguous in the kernel virtual address space, but not necessarily in physical memory, unless your data area is a preallocated DMA target (if it is, you have a bad coding style, and should allocate the buffer at init time instead of as static data anyway). o Link the module against the kernel symbol table, this time placing the module at the text address of the start of the reserved memory area. o Push the module across the U/K boundry via additional ioctl's, to copy it into the allocated region. o Ioctl the entry point of the module down. The kernel will call entry into the module, and cause the module to self register. o The module will modifiy dynamic list contents in the kernel address space to wedge itself in. Any address which is writeable is fair game for wedging. For instance, you can overwrite function pointers to wedge in a ned console in the init() routine for a module, even though "console modules" are not a defined type. Your attempt to load the module failed because the kernel symbol table you were linking against was not the correct symbol table for the currently active kernel. Most likely, the self-registration mechanism, when invoked, caused the module to step on relative addresses in the data segment which were invalid. This could mean it tromped on active FS code, active registration data, or whatever. In general, it failed because the external module references weren't where the symbol table said they were. The correct soloution to this problem is to move FreeBSD to ELF, and generalize an ELF image loader so that the module loader and the execution class loader use the same code. Then move the kernel symbol table into kernel data address space (just like AIX). You could limit the exported symbols to "defined kernel interfaces". I would actually recommend against this... I think Linux has the wrong idea here; they only do it so they can pretend the kernel is a library (LGPL) and therefore kernel modules do not get subjected to the GPL. Stahlman doesn't think that the license allows this, FWIW. Finally, you would establish a symbol/image mapping, and inserts the module symbols into the exported symbol lost for the kernel. This resolves the dependency graph issues that are poorly resolved in the current LKM system ...my fault; I only considered LKM's as a developer tool; even if the dependency issue for loadable driver interdependence is resolved, loading and unloading will fragment the kernel virtual address space. Truly, each LKM needs its own VM so it can be loaded there. This also removes the PIC requirement for processor architectures which don't support it. This also neatly resolves the KVA short/medium/long persistence object issues. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 13:14:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09992 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:14:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (brosenga.st.pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09986 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16436; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:14:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:14:17 -0800 (PST) From: Snob Art Genre To: "K.J.Koster" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, K.J.Koster wrote: > Hello hackers, > > Last night I discovered a simple way to crash my system (2.1.5-release). > It is really nothing that you would do every day, but still. > > After rebuilding my kernel, and doing a `make install' on it, I wanted to > make a little change to my autoexec.bat, before rebooting so: > > LikeEver# make install > *chew chew, installed kernel* > LikeEver# mount /msdos > *silence*... Uh, Oh... > *twitch, grasp, cold reboot* > > This is obviously stupidity on my part, for not rebooting immediately > after installing the kernel, but still. > > Altough I am speculating here, I think this has to do with the fact that > I do not have msdosfs compiled in with the kernel. After installing a > different kernel, I asked the system to modload msdosfs, with the above > result. > > Please CC me, as I'm not on the list. > > Groetjes, > Kees Jan > > ------------------------------------------------------------v-- > Kees Jan Koster Kemsing gardens 46 > e-mail: kjk1@ukc.ac.uk Canterbury, Kent > phone: UK-1227-452151 CT2 7RF, United Kingdom > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yesterday I could not even write "Engenier", > and now I are one. > > > Msdosfs is seriously broken. It has twice damaged my filesystem to the extent that I had to reinstall FreeBSD. Don't use it. There is no documentation of the fact that it's that screwed up, which is something that whoever's responsible for documenting these things might want to look into. Ben From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 13:28:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10803 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10773 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA15593; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:22 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611252124.PAA15593@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:22 -0600 (CST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611251951.MAA23104@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Nov 25, 96 12:51:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [ ... sendmail ... ] > > > It is also the most used/public suid program in the world, subject to > > the most scrutinity (and attack). > > login? I receive a dozen mail messages for every login, I think I do agree with the original statement. :-) :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 13:30:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10922 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from itchy.atlas.com ([206.29.170.233]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10885 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brantk@localhost) by itchy.atlas.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) id NAA12882; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:28:48 -0800 (PST) From: Brant Katkansky Message-Id: <199611252128.NAA12882@itchy.atlas.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:28:48 -0800 (PST) Cc: peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: brantk@atlas.com In-Reply-To: <199611251924.NAA15320@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Nov 25, 96 01:24:50 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That extends to other things as well. :-) Anybody want to write a little > tool that "knows" how to do this, configurably? Maybe some mtree files > plus a little menu widget. > > A quick inspection reveals that the following files (maybe more) are suid: [snip] > It seems to me that many of these are parts of various system "services" > (UUCP, LPR, Mail, YP, rcmds). What might be way cool is a program that > presents a menu such as > > System Services > --------------- > enabled A) Sendmail > disabled B) UUCP > disabled C) Printing > enabled D) IIJ-PPP > disabled E) sliplogin I think this is something I'd be interested in doing. How 'bout I do it as a command-line util first (cf. pkg_* tools) and then wedge in a convenient user interface later? -- Brant Katkansky (brantk@atlas.com) Software Engineer, ADC From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 13:35:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11364 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:35:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA11347 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA15621; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:33:23 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611252133.PAA15621@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: brantk@atlas.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:33:22 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611252128.NAA12882@itchy.atlas.com> from "Brant Katkansky" at Nov 25, 96 01:28:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > That extends to other things as well. :-) Anybody want to write a little > > tool that "knows" how to do this, configurably? Maybe some mtree files > > plus a little menu widget. > > > > A quick inspection reveals that the following files (maybe more) are suid: > > [snip] > > > It seems to me that many of these are parts of various system "services" > > (UUCP, LPR, Mail, YP, rcmds). What might be way cool is a program that > > presents a menu such as > > > > System Services > > --------------- > > enabled A) Sendmail > > disabled B) UUCP > > disabled C) Printing > > enabled D) IIJ-PPP > > disabled E) sliplogin > > I think this is something I'd be interested in doing. > > How 'bout I do it as a command-line util first (cf. pkg_* tools) > and then wedge in a convenient user interface later? That would certainly be appropriate, at least from the point of view of MTA's, or alternative printing mechanisms. pkg_control -disable sendmail perhaps, for an install of Qmail, Smail, etc. People will argue over whether to simply remove suid bits or to make it mode 000... (This might even help to lay the foundations to start packagizing a lot of the "base" system components. There is no real reason to have a lot of this stuff on something like a router. I might like very much to remove Sendmail, or the LPR stuff, etc., from a router at some point.) But little steps first. ;-) If I can offer any advice, please do not hesitate to ask. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 13:50:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12164 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12136 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA26684 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:49:26 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id WAA08442 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:48:54 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.3/keltia-uucp-2.9) id VAA08103; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:28:15 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:28:14 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 References: <9611251742.AA10825@bio-5.bsd.uchicago.edu> <199611251909.NAA15280@brasil.moneng.mei.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.51 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2738 In-Reply-To: <199611251909.NAA15280@brasil.moneng.mei.com>; from Joe Greco on Nov 25, 1996 13:09:37 -0600 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Joe Greco: > on just how compatible Qmail strives to be. Not that much. Many switches just make the sendmail wrapper puke. It doesn't support ESMTP and its extensions, logs are not at the same level as sendmail (I like sendmail's a lot). Qmail is certainly interesting (good design, small programs and so on) but has for me too many flaws (no UUCP support at all, funky configuration system with zillions of ".qmail-*" files -- I really hate 'em, no ESMTP). As for security review, if you think sendmail's code is bad, try qmail's sometimes. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Sun Nov 24 16:05:46 MET 1996 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 13:52:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12370 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from itchy.atlas.com ([206.29.170.233]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12350 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:52:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brantk@localhost) by itchy.atlas.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) id NAA13499; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:47:48 -0800 (PST) From: Brant Katkansky Message-Id: <199611252147.NAA13499@itchy.atlas.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:47:47 -0800 (PST) Cc: brantk@atlas.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: brantk@atlas.com In-Reply-To: <199611252133.PAA15621@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Nov 25, 96 03:33:22 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > That extends to other things as well. :-) Anybody want to write a little > > > tool that "knows" how to do this, configurably? Maybe some mtree files > > > plus a little menu widget. > > > > > > A quick inspection reveals that the following files (maybe more) are suid: > > > > [snip] > > > > > It seems to me that many of these are parts of various system "services" > > > (UUCP, LPR, Mail, YP, rcmds). What might be way cool is a program that > > > presents a menu such as > > > > > > System Services > > > --------------- > > > enabled A) Sendmail > > > disabled B) UUCP > > > disabled C) Printing > > > enabled D) IIJ-PPP > > > disabled E) sliplogin > > > > I think this is something I'd be interested in doing. > > > > How 'bout I do it as a command-line util first (cf. pkg_* tools) > > and then wedge in a convenient user interface later? > > That would certainly be appropriate, at least from the point of view of > MTA's, or alternative printing mechanisms. > > pkg_control -disable sendmail > > perhaps, for an install of Qmail, Smail, etc. > > People will argue over whether to simply remove suid bits or to make it > mode 000... How about something like this: pkg_control -safe sendmail # remove s[i|g]id bits pkg_control -disable sendmail # make mode 000 pkg_control [-force] -remove sendmail # remove the executable This much would be simple, I should think. > (This might even help to lay the foundations to start packagizing a lot > of the "base" system components. There is no real reason to have a lot > of this stuff on something like a router. I might like very much to > remove Sendmail, or the LPR stuff, etc., from a router at some point.) It would be (more?) helpful to be able to not install it in the first place, but like you say, little steps first. > But little steps first. ;-) > > If I can offer any advice, please do not hesitate to ask. You might regret it. :) -- Brant Katkansky (brantk@atlas.com) Software Engineer, ADC From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 13:57:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12707 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12697 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id PAA15684; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:55:45 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611252155.PAA15684@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: brantk@atlas.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:55:45 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611252147.NAA13499@itchy.atlas.com> from "Brant Katkansky" at Nov 25, 96 01:47:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > People will argue over whether to simply remove suid bits or to make it > > mode 000... > > How about something like this: > > pkg_control -safe sendmail # remove s[i|g]id bits > pkg_control -disable sendmail # make mode 000 > pkg_control [-force] -remove sendmail # remove the executable > > This much would be simple, I should think. It may be. :-) Make sure that you also add a pkg_control -enable sendmail # fix it (unless was removed) too. Unsolicited advice: it would be a good idea to generalize this functionality as much as possible. If I were implementing it, I might consider the use of data files to allow easy additions in the future... maybe something like /usr/share/misc/pkg_control/sendmail/{safe,disable,enable,remove} for base system packages. Add on packages could also have a tree in /usr/local/share/misc/pkg_control/ or something like that... not that you need to do all that right now, but maybe plan for something like that down the road? It would be a potentially good way to do it, IMHO. > > (This might even help to lay the foundations to start packagizing a lot > > of the "base" system components. There is no real reason to have a lot > > of this stuff on something like a router. I might like very much to > > remove Sendmail, or the LPR stuff, etc., from a router at some point.) > > It would be (more?) helpful to be able to not install it in the first place, > but like you say, little steps first. Agreed. > > But little steps first. ;-) > > > > If I can offer any advice, please do not hesitate to ask. > > You might regret it. :) Doubtful! It is good to encourage this kind of thing. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 14:11:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13597 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:11:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from itchy.atlas.com ([206.29.170.233]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13592 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brantk@localhost) by itchy.atlas.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) id OAA13635; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:06:58 -0800 (PST) From: Brant Katkansky Message-Id: <199611252206.OAA13635@itchy.atlas.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:06:58 -0800 (PST) Cc: brantk@atlas.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: brantk@atlas.com In-Reply-To: <199611252155.PAA15684@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Nov 25, 96 03:55:45 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > People will argue over whether to simply remove suid bits or to make it > > > mode 000... > > > > How about something like this: > > > > pkg_control -safe sendmail # remove s[i|g]id bits > > pkg_control -disable sendmail # make mode 000 > > pkg_control [-force] -remove sendmail # remove the executable > > > > This much would be simple, I should think. > > It may be. :-) Make sure that you also add a > > pkg_control -enable sendmail # fix it (unless was removed) > > too. I thought that would be obvious, so I didn't mention it. :) > > Unsolicited advice: it would be a good idea to generalize this > functionality as much as possible. > > If I were implementing it, I might consider the use of data files to > allow easy additions in the future... maybe something like > > /usr/share/misc/pkg_control/sendmail/{safe,disable,enable,remove} > > for base system packages. Add on packages could also have a tree in > > /usr/local/share/misc/pkg_control/ > > or something like that... not that you need to do all that right now, > but maybe plan for something like that down the road? It would be a > potentially good way to do it, IMHO. I like it. I have been thinking along these same lines; for the time being I think I will go with what you have suggested. Say, isn't anyone going to try and _stop_ me from taking this fool's journey? :) -- Brant Katkansky (brantk@atlas.com) Software Engineer, ADC From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 14:12:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13705 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (sdev.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13644 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.2/8.6.9) id JAA17141; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:11:45 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:11:45 +1100 From: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 References: <4572.848895649@time.cdrom.com> <199611250434.PAA27300@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.50 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611250434.PAA27300@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Nov 25, 1996 15:04:54 +1030 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > I'd also appreciate input from anyone that can see a problem with having > sendmail lying around but not running; if it's thought that this is still > a security risk, then there should be a comment in the handbook section > on mailer security suggesting that it be disabled (nuked, re-moded, etc.). Most mailers that are intended to replace sendmail's functionality also replace the sendmail binary in /usr/sbin with a front-end that does much the same, or at least a symbolic link that points to the 'real' front-end. There's a good deal of sendmail dependancy out there in MUAs. David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 14:13:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13805 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:13:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13793 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA03985; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:10:20 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:10:20 +1100 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-Reply-To: <199611251951.MAA23104@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > [ ... sendmail ... ] > > > It is also the most used/public suid program in the world, subject to > > the most scrutinity (and attack). > > login? Came up a couple of months ago. login only needs to be suid root so someone can log in again by executing 'login' rather than logging out, or logging back in. It also is a candidate for "set me suid root only if needed." Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 14:36:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15740 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15697 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id QAA15764; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:34:02 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611252234.QAA15764@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: brantk@atlas.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:34:02 -0600 (CST) Cc: peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611252206.OAA13635@itchy.atlas.com> from "Brant Katkansky" at Nov 25, 96 02:06:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It may be. :-) Make sure that you also add a > > > > pkg_control -enable sendmail # fix it (unless was removed) > > > > too. > > I thought that would be obvious, so I didn't mention it. :) Hey, if it's not in the requirements, it often doesn't end up in the code, no matter how obvious it seems to the person writing the requirements... (a little problem often seen in software engineering). I am glad we are on the same page :-) > > Unsolicited advice: it would be a good idea to generalize this > > functionality as much as possible. > > > > If I were implementing it, I might consider the use of data files to > > allow easy additions in the future... maybe something like > > > > /usr/share/misc/pkg_control/sendmail/{safe,disable,enable,remove} > > > > for base system packages. Add on packages could also have a tree in > > > > /usr/local/share/misc/pkg_control/ > > > > or something like that... not that you need to do all that right now, > > but maybe plan for something like that down the road? It would be a > > potentially good way to do it, IMHO. > > I like it. I have been thinking along these same lines; for the > time being I think I will go with what you have suggested. I am thinking about it in more detail... I think mtree is a nice solution for safe/enable/disable but I do not think it can deal with remove... anybody have any good recommendations? Maybe those files are best done as shell scripts. #! /bin/sh - PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/etc; export PATH cd /usr/sbin mtree -e -U << EOF /set type=file uid=3 gid=7 mode=0555 nlink=1 . type=dir mode=0755 nlink=2 sendmail uid=0 mode=04555 nlink=3 size=245760 .. EOF But obviously listing all the related Sendmail files. Three mtree files and one file with explicit rm -f's. Might be OK. > Say, isn't anyone going to try and _stop_ me from taking > this fool's journey? :) No. Your intentions are noble and your cause is just. :-) (Martyrs are often remembered long after heroes are forgotten.) Okay I will quit it with the inspirational thoughts! ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 14:36:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15824 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from george.lbl.gov (george-2.lbl.gov [131.243.2.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15795 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:36:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (jin@localhost) by george.lbl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.5) id OAA09522 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:36:34 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:36:34 -0800 From: "Jin Guojun[ITG]" Message-Id: <199611252236.OAA09522@george.lbl.gov> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 2.2-Alpha I/O problem or P Pro problem? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A week ago, we discussed that diff under 2.2-alpha has some I/O problem. Now I experienced "cat" I/O problem. I wonder if this is 2.2-Alpha I/O problem or it is the Pentinum Pro problem since the "cat" I/O error happened only on TYAN-S1662 Pentinum Pro machine. Here is the kdump: # ktrace cat ~jin/hosts >> /etc/hosts cat: stdout: Bad file descriptor # kdump 267 ktrace RET ktrace 0 267 ktrace CALL readlink(0x8066d3a,0xefbfd4d8,0x3f) 267 ktrace NAMI "/etc/malloc.conf" 267 ktrace RET readlink -1 errno 2 No such file or directory 267 ktrace CALL mmap(0,0x1000,0x3,0x1002,0xffffffff,0,0,0) 267 ktrace RET mmap 134324224/0x801a000 267 ktrace CALL break(0x5000) 267 ktrace RET break 0 267 ktrace CALL break(0x6000) 267 ktrace RET break 0 267 ktrace CALL execve(0xefbfd5a0,0xefbfda00,0xefbfda0c) 267 ktrace NAMI "/sbin/cat" 267 ktrace RET execve -1 errno 2 No such file or directory 267 ktrace CALL execve(0xefbfd5a0,0xefbfda00,0xefbfda0c) 267 ktrace NAMI "/usr/sbin/cat" 267 ktrace RET execve -1 errno 2 No such file or directory 267 ktrace CALL execve(0xefbfd5a0,0xefbfda00,0xefbfda0c) 267 ktrace NAMI "/usr/bin/cat" 267 ktrace RET execve -1 errno 2 No such file or directory 267 ktrace CALL execve(0xefbfd5a0,0xefbfda00,0xefbfda0c) 267 ktrace NAMI "/bin/cat" 267 cat RET execve 0 267 cat CALL open(0xefbfda50,0,0) 267 cat NAMI "/home/u1/users/jin/hosts" 267 cat RET open 1 267 cat CALL fstat(0x1,0xefbfd958) 267 cat RET fstat 0 267 cat CALL readlink(0xc2ca,0xefbfd8d0,0x3f) 267 cat NAMI "/etc/malloc.conf" 267 cat RET readlink -1 errno 2 No such file or directory 267 cat CALL mmap(0,0x1000,0x3,0x1002,0xffffffff,0,0,0) 267 cat RET mmap 134275072/0x800e000 267 cat CALL break(0x17000) 267 cat RET break 0 267 cat CALL break(0x19000) 267 cat RET break 0 267 cat CALL read(0x1,0x17000,0x2000) 267 cat GIO fd 1 read 701 bytes "127.0.0.1 localhost.lbl.gov localhost ..... (omitted) " 267 cat RET read 701/0x2bd 267 cat CALL write(0x1,0x17000,0x2bd) 267 cat RET write -1 errno 9 Bad file descriptor 267 cat CALL write(0x2,0xefbfd270,0x5) 267 cat GIO fd 2 wrote 5 bytes "cat: " 267 cat RET write 5 267 cat CALL write(0x2,0xefbfd284,0x6) 267 cat GIO fd 2 wrote 6 bytes "stdout" 267 cat RET write 6 267 cat CALL write(0x2,0xefbfd268,0x2) 267 cat GIO fd 2 wrote 2 bytes ": " 267 cat RET write 2 267 cat CALL write(0x2,0xefbfd26c,0x14) 267 cat GIO fd 2 wrote 20 bytes "Bad file descriptor " 267 cat RET write 20/0x14 267 cat CALL exit(0x1) -Jin From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 14:39:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15963 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:39:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hil-img-3.compuserve.com (hil-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.177.133]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15940 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:38:54 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA09948; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:38:13 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:32:24 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1660 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611251738_MC1-C3A-258E@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1660 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-20-96 02:38:00 PM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1660 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 14:39:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA15975 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:39:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from hil-img-2.compuserve.com (hil-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.177.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA15943 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:38:57 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by hil-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA12669; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:38:21 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:32:24 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1660 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611251738_MC1-C3A-258E@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA07889; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:38:12 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.8.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA08184; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA26240 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:40:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:40:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611201840.KAA26240@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1660 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Wednesday, 20 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1660 In this issue: Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: Recuperating a DOS partition Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) 640MB MO support source kit Re: Kernel calls - args in registers Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: Ipx to ip routing Disk Striping Re: RELENG_2_2 and CVS Integrating sendmail 8.8.3 into a 2.1.6 tree Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) Re: Disk Striping Re: Who needs Perl? We do! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:50:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing Joe Greco writes: > Ideally, in a school environment, each networked classroom or lab should > be on its own subnet, or perhaps several subnets. When the machines are [...] This falls apart when you have to deal with roaming. If your "school environment" isn't dealing with student laptops now, it will be within the next few years. The nicest solution I've seen is a large subnet (~13 bits) with smart IP switches. - -- Christopher Masto . . . . Superior Net Support: support@superior.net chris@masto.com . . . . . Masto Consulting: info@masto.com On Book Titles, Confidence-Building: "Correctly English in 100 Days" - title from an East ASian book for beginning English speakers ------------------------------ From: J Wunsch Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:46:54 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Recuperating a DOS partition As Jean-Pierre Morant wrote: > I've used fdisk to assign that partition to FreeBSD, > then edited the fstab so that /dev/wd1s1f (the next available partition > name) is seen as a swap partition. Are you confusing partitions and slices here? wd1s1f would be partition `f' on slice 1 on wd1. > The data for partition 0 is: > sysid 165,(FreeBSD/NetBSD/386BSD) > start 0, size 244160 (119 Meg), flag 80 > beg: cyl 0/ sector 1/ head 0; > end: cyl 1023/ sector 1/ head 0 This is slice 1. > The data for partition 1 is: > sysid 165,(FreeBSD/NetBSD/386BSD) > start 0, size 244160 (119 Meg), flag 0 > beg: cyl 0/ sector 0/ head 0; > end: cyl 447/ sector 1/ head 0 This is slice 2, i think that's what you're actually trying to use? If so, it's /dev/wd1s2 (eventually followed by a partition letter). I'm not sure whether swapping to partitions != `b' is supported now; it wasn't supported in historic versions. At least, it's the cleanest to stick with the traditional names, disklabel wd1s2, and assign the entire space there to the `b' partition. See also the (updated) section 2.15 of the FAQ for traditional partition naming conventions. - -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) ------------------------------ From: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:13:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) > > >On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Hal Snyder wrote: > >> > My question is: Does Freebsd support ipx to ip routing. I know that BSDi >> > does. (And they want $6,000 for their system because of it.) > >oops, I really meant ipx to ip TRANSLATION. I want to only have one host >using a ip address and all the others using ipx (or somthing similar) to >talk to the internet. Each computer would be mapped to by the MAC address >on the ethernet card. All communications with the internet would go >through FBSD host. www.netcon.com Dennis ------------------------------ From: "barry (b.a.) scott" Date: 20 Nov 1996 09:57 EST Subject: 640MB MO support source kit Introduction ============ This kit contains changes to "FreeBSD 2.2-961006-SNAP" which implement support for disks with physical sector size of 512, 1024 and 2048 bytes. Authors: These changes are the joint effort of John Gumb (john@talisker.demon.co.uk) and Barry Scott (barry@scottb.demon.co.uk). Please contact us about these chanages. At this point only the od device has been changed. Changing the sd device would be straight forward; apply the changes from od.c to sd.c. We will submit a patch for sd.c later. This kit contains diffs that can be used with the 'patch' utility to update a virgin source tree. Location: via ftp at ftp.freebsd.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/mo-2048kit.tar.gz 1. Source Changes necessary ======================== a) SBIN changes ------------ Patch file: sbin.MO.patch This file patches fdisk and newfs to support up to 2048 byte sectors. Files changed on system: /usr/src/sbin/newfs/newfs.c /usr/src/sbin/newfs/mkfs.c /usr/src/sbin/i386/fdisk/fdisk.c Corresponding files in this kit: mo-kit/sbin.MO.patch mo-kit/sbin/newfs/newfs.c mo-kit/sbin/newfs/mkfs.c mo-kit/sbin/i386/fdisk.c b) SYS chages ---------- Patch file sys.MO.patch This file patches the kernel to support up to 2048 byte sectors on the od device. Both ufs and msdosfs are supported on the od device. Files changed on system: /usr/src/sys/msdosfs/msdosfs_fat.c /usr/src/sys/msdosfs/msdosfs_vfsops.c /usr/src/sys/msdosfs/msdosfsmount.h /usr/src/sys/kern/subr_diskslice.c /usr/src/sys/ufs/ufs/ufs_disksubr.c /usr/src/sys/scsi/od.c Corresponding files in this kit: mo-kit/sys.MO.patch mo-kit/sys/msdosfs/msdosfs_fat.c mo-kit/sys/msdosfs/msdosfs_vfsops.c mo-kit/sys/msdosfs/msdosfsmount.h mo-kit/sys/kern/subr_diskslice.c mo-kit/sys/ufs/ufs/ufs_disksubr.c mo-kit/sys/scsi/od.c c) ETC changes ----------- The file disktab.MO contains the disktab entry for the Fujitsu M2513A MO drive with 2048 byte media. Files changed on system: /etc/disktab Corresponding file in this kit: mo-kit/disktab.MO 2. Testing performed ================= a) MSDOS ----- For MSDOS FS we created a FAT formated MO disk under Windows NT and placed files onto the disk from Windows NT. Under FreeBSD all the directories and files where confirmed to be readable. Under FreeBSD we created extra directories and wrote files on to the MO disk. FreeBSD could read these additional files. The disk was moved back to Windows NT and chkdsk was used to detect any file system corrupt. None found. Window NT was used to read the directories and files written under FreeBSB. b) UFS --- we use the following script to regression test disklabel and newfs: - ------------- #!/bin/bash set -x echo Initing disk... umount /dev/od0a umount /dev/od0s1 logger -p local1.notice "Initing disk..." dd bs=2048 count=1 if=od0-mbr.fdisk of=/dev/rod0 dd bs=2048 count=2 seek=1 if=/dev/zero of=/dev/rod0 echo read disklabel... logger -p local1.notice "read disklabel before write..." disklabel /dev/rod0c echo read disklabel... logger -p local1.notice "read disklabel -r before write..." disklabel -r /dev/rod0c echo write disklabel... logger -p local1.notice "write disklabel..." disklabel -r -w /dev/rod0c m2513a-640mb testing-mo-code echo read disklabel after write... logger -p local1.notice "read disklabel..." disklabel /dev/rod0c echo newfs od0a logger -p local1.notice "newfs..." newfs /dev/rod0a echo mount od0a logger -p local1.notice "mount od0a..." mount /mo - ------------- Note the file od0-mbr.fdisk contains a copy of the mbr written previously under FreeBSD by the new fdisk. The entire /usr/src/sys tree was written to the MO disk using cp -r. The disk was dismounted and then remounted. Then the entire /usr/src/sys tree was diffed against the MO disk copy. No differences found. The MO was dismounted and fsck was run. It detected no problems. 3. Misc. Information ================= a) FDISK ----- We have tended to create a single BSD slice using fdisk. Be aware that the slice should start at offset 1 and the file system size should be 310351 sectors; the first sector being reserved for the mbr/partition table information. The geometry we use is slightly different to the default (see our modified /etc/disktab) in order to utilise the full capacity of the media. The bios geometry we use is C/H/S 652/17/28 (652*17*28=310352). ------------------------------ From: "barry (b.a.) scott" Date: 20 Nov 1996 10:04 EST Subject: Re: Kernel calls - args in registers This problem was reseached inside DEC by the compiler group. They found that it was far better to pass parameters on the stack and thus leave the optimiser a full set of registers to work with within the body of the routine. As gcc's optimiser improves it becomes less and less likely that passing args in registers will give an advantage. BArry ------------------------------ From: Joe Greco Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:18:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing > Joe Greco writes: > > Ideally, in a school environment, each networked classroom or lab should > > be on its own subnet, or perhaps several subnets. When the machines are > [...] > > This falls apart when you have to deal with roaming. If your "school > environment" isn't dealing with student laptops now, it will be within > the next few years. > > The nicest solution I've seen is a large subnet (~13 bits) with smart > IP switches. What do you do about IP address collisions, then??????? Good lord. Hope you are great with an Ethernet sniffer, and your switches can trace on your behalf. We had this problem at MEI, trust me, it is virtually impossible to track down transient collisions on such a large network. I can just see the fireworks when Suzi Smith, the first year arts major, plugs in her workstation and mistakenly nails your gateway IP address in as her PC's IP address. Woo woo! There goes your Internet connectivity. I would think that in the sort of environment you are suggesting, one would think that DHCP is the ideal solution, and would allow for properly subnetted networks that do not suffer from the general problems of a network with 13 bits of space. That way you could even "roam" yourself to your home network, or your local ISP, or the other school across town where you decided to take one course for the hell of it. Incidentally: I am no big supporter of DHCP, I do not even like the concept, but for this kind of thing, it's really the right tool. ... JG ------------------------------ From: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:03:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing Joe Greco writes: > > Joe Greco writes: > > > Ideally, in a school environment, each networked classroom or lab should > > > be on its own subnet, or perhaps several subnets. When the machines are > > [...] > > > > This falls apart when you have to deal with roaming. If your "school > > environment" isn't dealing with student laptops now, it will be within > > the next few years. > > > > The nicest solution I've seen is a large subnet (~13 bits) with smart > > IP switches. > > What do you do about IP address collisions, then??????? Good lord. Hope > you are great with an Ethernet sniffer, and your switches can trace on > your behalf. We had this problem at MEI, trust me, it is virtually > impossible to track down transient collisions on such a large network. The switches don't allow IP address collisions. They associate a hardware address with an IP address and talk to each other to keep things in sync. This is what they did where I went to school (RPI). When you're in your room with a laptop, packets for your IP get forwarded to that physical wire.. if you unplug the laptop and reconnect it in a classroom, the switch sees your first packet and updates its knowledge of where you are, physically. If you try to use the wrong IP, you are only affecting the physical segment that you are on, because the switch knows it's not correct and probably even sends an SNMP trap to let the administrators know. - -- Christopher Masto . . . . Superior Net Support: support@superior.net chris@masto.com . . . . . Masto Consulting: info@masto.com On Machismo and Pestilence: In the early sixties, we were strong, we were virulent... - John Connally, Secretary of Treasury under Richard Nixon. ------------------------------ From: Joe Greco Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:16:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing > The switches don't allow IP address collisions. They associate a > hardware address with an IP address and talk to each other to keep > things in sync. This is what they did where I went to school (RPI). > When you're in your room with a laptop, packets for your IP get > forwarded to that physical wire.. if you unplug the laptop and > reconnect it in a classroom, the switch sees your first packet and > updates its knowledge of where you are, physically. If you try to use > the wrong IP, you are only affecting the physical segment that you are > on, because the switch knows it's not correct and probably even sends > an SNMP trap to let the administrators know. Ethernet switches are not supposed to do anything other than MAC level address routing. Switches by definition will certainly allow IP address collisions because they do not have a clue what the hell an IP address is. The other disadvantage of switches is the potentially large amount of ARP'ing that can go on to locate hosts in such a network. ... JG ------------------------------ From: "Darrin R. Woods" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:14:31 -0600 Subject: Disk Striping I just got my news server up and running INN (thanks to everyone that helped), but now I'm looking for a better way of dealing with it. I've got 3 Fast/Wide 4gb disks to hold news. It would be a lot easier (and better performance) if I could stripe (or span) the /var partition accross the 3 disks instead of having to guess as to how to partition each drive and into what sizes. The question: Is there a way to stripe a partition across multiple drives in FreeBSD? If not, does anyone know of a FreeBSD like OS that will do it? Preferably NOT Linux. Thanks, Darrin R. Woods | dwoods@netgazer.com Director | Netgazer Solutions, Inc. | http://www.netgazer.net Dallas, Texas | My employer most whole-heartedly denies everything I say ------------------------------ From: John Polstra Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:19:44 -0800 Subject: Re: RELENG_2_2 and CVS In article Mike Hancock writes: > I discovered that my CVS tree was corrupt after trying the following: > > cd /jaz > cvs co -r RELENG_2_2 src # -r implies -P > > The checkout failed and later that night my cvsup cron job failed with the > error "Possible reference of NIL". *Blush*, how embarrassing. There are still a couple of cases involving badly spammed CVS repositories that can cause this sort of thing to happen. If you still have a backup of the bad repository, I'd greatly appreciate getting a copy of the offending subtree. My current unreleased working version of CVSup has fixes for the two problems I was aware of. But neither of them involved null pointer dereferences, so this one could be new to me. > > So I rm -rf /jaz/cvs; cvsup'ed the tree again; rm -rf /jaz/src; checked > out 2.2 release; built a new kernel and things look fine now for testing > 2.2. > > /jaz/src was current. Which brings me to a question, should I have done a > cvs release src? No, "cvs release" doesn't affect the repository at all. It might affect your logfiles, but that's all. There's nothing wrong with doing a simple "rm -rf" of your working directory when you're done with it. - -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth ------------------------------ From: Tom Samplonius Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:54:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Integrating sendmail 8.8.3 into a 2.1.6 tree I've been trying to integrate sendmail 8.8.3 (taken from current) into a 2.1.6 tree. This looked very straightforward because the Makefiles and directory structure was nearly identical. However, when trying a "make all", make stops with a "don't know how to make /usr/src/usr.sbin/sendmail/src/sysexits.h". I find this strange. sysexits.h isn't included with sendmail, and isn't mentioned in the Makefile, so why does make think it needs to be built? Tom ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:37:51 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) > > You up for writing a winsock? If you were to write a winsock, and > > you made it use SOCKS to connect to a SOCKS IP Proxy Gateway, your > > name would be heralded from the tops of towers, in many circles, > > since it would mean the death of the hated "aliasing". > > Trumpet Winsock does this, last time I looked, or am I misunderstanding > what you are suggesting? I'll have to look; I wasn't aware of this... Thanks! Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: "Maestros Asociados" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:58:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD - ---------- : From: Chris Timmons : To: Wilko Bulte : Cc: FreeBSD hackers list : Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD : Date: martes 19 de noviembre de 1996 13:28 : : : Well the great thing about FreeBSD is that it's FREE... so anybody can put : it on a CD and sell it. : : My preference has always been to buy from Walnut Creek CDROM because they : support the project. I personally subscribe to both the -RELEASE and : -SNAP cd distributions and have had excellent experience dealing with the : Walnut Creek people on the phone. Since we rely heavily on FreeBSD at : work, I spec Walnut Creek as the CD-ROM of choice there as well. Thanks : WC!!! : : -Chris : : On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Wilko Bulte wrote: : : > Hi there, : > : > I just today got a catalog in my PObox of Pacific HighTech CDROM. : > A bit to my surprise it has a 'Turbo FreeBSD' CDROM listed on it's : > cover. I contains 2.1.5R and a 2.2 SNAP (960801? it's very : > fine print). : > : > Comments? : > : > Wilko : > _ ____________________________________________________________________ : > | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands : > |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda : > - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- : > ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:53:00 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing > > My question is: Does Freebsd support ipx to ip routing. I know that BSDi > > does. (And they want $6,000 for their system because of it.) > > > > Do we have any plans for implementing it? > > You can't route between IP and IPX. They are incompatible. You can > can however tunnel IPX across an IP network. Sidebar: NetWare/IP uses encapsulated IPX on a native IP transport; it is impossible to get away from IPX if you are using NetWare. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:02:02 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing > I would think that in the sort of environment you are suggesting, one > would think that DHCP is the ideal solution, and would allow for properly > subnetted networks that do not suffer from the general problems of a > network with 13 bits of space. I agree. And I'm not a big fan of DHCP, either. Are people actually implementing PAP yet? One big problem is that most RAS clients on MS boxes (Windows 95 without the "Plus! Pack" and Windows NT prior to 4.x) do not do auto connection on the basis of routing information... ie: demand dial PPP. An application has to be RAS aware, or a human has to establish the connection. Bleah. But they are much better at being DHCP clients than a BSD box can generally stumble through. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Doug Ambrisko Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:16:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing(translation) Terry Lambert writes: | > > You up for writing a winsock? If you were to write a winsock, and | > > you made it use SOCKS to connect to a SOCKS IP Proxy Gateway, your | > > name would be heralded from the tops of towers, in many circles, | > > since it would mean the death of the hated "aliasing". | > | > Trumpet Winsock does this, last time I looked, or am I misunderstanding | > what you are suggesting? | | I'll have to look; I wasn't aware of this... Thanks! Not to mention Hummingbird has a Win95/NT wedge for free and I've used at home, as well as, the 16 bit & 32 bit shims for Windows avaliable from NEC also for the download. Doug A. ------------------------------ From: Joe Greco Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:22:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Disk Striping > I just got my news server up and running INN (thanks to everyone that > helped), but now I'm looking for a better way of dealing with it. I've got > 3 Fast/Wide 4gb disks to hold news. It would be a lot easier (and better > performance) if I could stripe (or span) the /var partition accross the 3 > disks instead of having to guess as to how to partition each drive and into > what sizes. (I am not convinced that that statement is true...) > The question: Is there a way to stripe a partition across multiple drives > in FreeBSD? If not, does anyone know of a FreeBSD like OS that will do it? > Preferably NOT Linux. I recommend you go search the mailing list archives for almost anything I have ever written on the subject of Usenet news and FreeBSD. ... JG ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:26:32 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > > The problem is the dependencies for the existing code, and that fact > > that if the maintainers of the code haven't "upgraded", then we become > > promary support for the "upgraded" scripts. > > Most programs run fine with NO changes. As we gain more dependencies on PERL in the main line source tree, we will become more sensitive to PERL changes. Has PERL syntax reached the top end of the inverse expotential curve yet? If the last major rev is any indicator, the answer is "no". 8-(. When it starts to stagnate, then it will be safe. 8-). > > This would have been less of a problem in the 5.x changeover if the > > PERL distribution had a tool to upgrade scripts over the syntactic > > changes. > > Why don't C++ compliers supply the same thing? I've seen programmers > get bit by the same thing. Frank answer: because compiler writers are lazy. IMO, it is work 100 hours of compiler write time to save 1 hour of compiler user time is compiler users outnumber compiler writers 100 to 1. Since there are now in excess of 1.1 million professional programmers in the US alone, I kind of think the number is closer to 1000 to 1. One hour of compiler writer time for each 6 minutes of compiler user time. The whole MS "near/far" debacle could have been avoided if the compiler emitted pseduo-ops, which the linker resolved to near/far calls as necessary -- and as a result, totally hidden segments from the compiler user. Prototypes were the MS and Borland answer to the ANSI committee; they are useful in that they allow a migration path from C to C++, but the type-checking benefits result from not properly attributing object module contents in the first place... otherwise, the linker could catch the call return/argument mismatch by comparing attributes. Similarly, the "extern C" constructs are bogus name space selector mechanisms, only necessary because the object modules are once again, not attributed, and the linker is, once again, stupid. A lot of extra work for the compiler user because the compiler writer didn't want to have to spend the time. You can make similar arguments about applying "volatile" to variables instead of functions and memory ranges to make it innocuous (and in many cases, hide it with encapsulation -- ie: in __sighandler_t). A "volatile" function, by definition, is a crossing of a thread of control boundry. Stack scoping attribution could eliminate the need for volatile for everything by physical device memory references... any function crossing a thread of control (like a signal handler) would implicitly have non-local scope references treated as volatile. Etc., etc. Failure to provide "syntax upgrade" tools to post-process existing source code into the new syntax is just another instance of the same general problem. 8-(. And even if "syntax upgrade" tools were available, most of the PERL code in FreeBSD is "vendor branched"... which means convincing all the "vendors" to run the tools and rerelease their sources. There *will* be a latency in that process. > > The problem, again, is that the change cycle on PERL has historically > > been too short to base a FreeBSD release on a PERL release... PERL > > is moving faster than FreeBSD, in other words. > > HuH???!!!??? Include the latency in getting all vendors to the same revision level of the interpreter so that the new revision and all the dependent tools can be committed simultaneously. If FreeBSD has to run the conversion, then FreeBSD becomes the maintainer for each tool until the vendor himself runs the conversion. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1660 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 15:23:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA18580 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.sfu.ca (cs.sfu.ca [142.58.111.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA18560 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from weber (ballanty@weber [199.60.1.49]) by cs.sfu.ca (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA15756 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:22:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <329A2A46.5CC@cs.sfu.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:22:46 -0800 From: Rob Ballantyne X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Device Driver Writing. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello All, I hope this isn't too much of an intrusion. I was wondering if there is a reasonable source of information about writing device drivers for FreeBSD? I have a couple of Device Driver books but they tend to be about SCO or other SysV style UNIXs. Is there documentation for the FreeBSD kernel's internal system calls (like what would occur in section 9 of the man pages)? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Rob -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Rob Ballantyne | _____ | | email: ballanty@cs.sfu.ca | | | | Center for Systems Science | -----------O----------- | | Simon Fraser University | | | Burnaby, BC, CANADA V5A 1S6 | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 15:24:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA18623 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA18588 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from campa.panke.de (anonymous219.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.219]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA05199; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:17:09 +0100 Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA00524; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:40:41 +0100 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:40:41 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider Message-Id: <199611252140.WAA00524@campa.panke.de> To: Wilko Bulte Cc: FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers list) Subject: Turbo FreeBSD CD In-Reply-To: <199611191838.TAA00231@yedi.iaf.nl> References: <199611191838.TAA00231@yedi.iaf.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wilko Bulte writes: >I just today got a catalog in my PObox of Pacific HighTech CDROM. >A bit to my surprise it has a 'Turbo FreeBSD' CDROM listed on it's >cover. I contains 2.1.5R and a 2.2 SNAP (960801? it's very >fine print). I got the catalog too. I guess PHT "bought" the address book from WC. PS: PHT sells the the 'Turbo FreeBSD' CD-ROM as platform (OS) 'Linux' ;-{ Wolfram From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 16:40:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23234 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexgen.HiWAAY.net (max7-67.HiWAAY.net [206.104.17.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA23171 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:40:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by nexgen.HiWAAY.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id SAA27940; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:39:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.5-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611251522.KAA10615@rk.wbs.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:30:20 -0600 (CST) Organization: Amateur Radio N4HHE, Madison, AL. From: David Kelly To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb d Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 16:22:33 Rashid Karimov wrote: >> I had read/write at about 18+ Mb/sec ( didn't use IOZONE > though - was doing dd on huge files - 300+ MB, back and > forth between /dev/ull , /dev/zero and CCD based 25GB > partition. > > Total of 3 wide AHAs and 6 Seagate Barracudas were used > at 200 Mhz PPRo MB by ASUS. > > That was quite a box ( was used for USENET news ). Sounded > like a subway train all the time ( 6 HDs !), was very stable > and fast. > > As far as I remember I had 256 in the ccd.conf file - it gave > about even read and write speeds. This sounds a lot like something I'm going to try, only the opposite. Was cleaning things out recently and noticed I had 6 small SCSI drives, (1) 40M, (1) 80M, (3) 105M, and (1) 120M. Was going to use a 1542CF but a co-worker had a VESA Adaptec and wanted an ISA Adaptec. It looks like I can fit all 6 drives in an external SCSI case that originally held a 5-1/4" FH drive and fit under a classic Mac. Building the internal SCSI cable isn't going to be too hard but the power routing looks like it could be a disaster if I try to do it the easy way and buy bunches of 1-in-2-out power splitters. Have seen insulation-displacement style floppy/hard drive power connectors on some systems lately but haven't found a source. It would be pretty easy to run a power bus with those power connectors pressed on at each hard drive, much like the 50 pin connector on ribbon cable for SCSI. Anybody know of a source of these power connectors? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 16:54:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA23971 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from clarion.korrnet.org (clarion.korrnet.org [205.131.173.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA23933 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kegrotla@localhost) by clarion.korrnet.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA29353; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:50:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:50:22 -0500 (EST) From: Kjell E Grotland To: Warner Losh cc: Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Losh, Thanks for your reply as to the micro channel question. Do you think there will be a FreeBSD in the future which will support microchannel. Also i will look into perhaps getting PS/2 AIX. Thank you again, Kjell Kjell E. Grotland kegrotla@korrnet.org Where do you seek the Beloved? On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <199611220218.MAA16607@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes: > : FreeBSD does not currently support Microchannel. If you need a Unix > : to run on that system, you may be able to get a PS/2 AIX to work. > > There is also a Linux microchannel port, but I know not its stability > or where to find it. > > : For FreeBSD, PCI is the bus of choice; EISA and ISA also work well. > > VLB works too! > > Gotta get me some more modern hardware... > > Warner > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 16:56:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24104 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA24072 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vSBoW-0007ZD-00; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:55:52 -0700 To: Kjell E Grotland Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC Cc: Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:50:22 EST." References: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:55:52 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Kjell E Grotland writes: : Thanks for your reply as to the micro channel question. Do you think : there will be a FreeBSD in the future which will support microchannel. While I'm not a FreeBSD core member and can't speak for them, I really doubt it. It is too poorly documented in the publicly available documentation to consider supporting. About the only way it will be supported is if we have someone inside IBM that can get access to the docs do it, and if we can get the legal requirements squared away... Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 16:57:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA24141 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:57:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from clarion.korrnet.org (clarion.korrnet.org [205.131.173.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA24109 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:56:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kegrotla@localhost) by clarion.korrnet.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA29478; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:54:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:54:12 -0500 (EST) From: Kjell E Grotland To: Michael Smith cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC In-Reply-To: <199611220218.MAA16607@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael, Thanks for your reply as i replied to Warner (sorry i thought your first name was Losh), i will look into AIX for PS/2 for the 57SLC. Thanks to all who had input into this. Oh by the way i have heard a rumour that MAC PowerPCs will support FreeBSD. Any truth to this. That would be just totally awsome. Running FreeBSD on a RISC chip machine. Thank you again, Kjell Kjell E. Grotland kegrotla@korrnet.org Where do you seek the Beloved? On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > Kjell E Grotland stands accused of saying: > > Hopefully this is not too trivial a matter but i was wondering if it is > > possible to Run FreeBSD on an IBM 57SLC. The reason i ask is because > > apparently this is a machine on which IBM place its proprietary Micro > > Channel Bus system and i was wondering if it made a difference in > > installing the FreeBSD Operating system. If not underwhich type of > > hardware configuration should i install the operating system? > > FreeBSD does not currently support Microchannel. If you need a Unix > to run on that system, you may be able to get a PS/2 AIX to work. > > For FreeBSD, PCI is the bus of choice; EISA and ISA also work well. > > > Kjell E. Grotland > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 17:02:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA24309 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from clarion.korrnet.org (clarion.korrnet.org [205.131.173.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA24292 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (kegrotla@localhost) by clarion.korrnet.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA29637; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:59:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:59:00 -0500 (EST) From: Kjell E Grotland To: Warner Losh cc: Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner, That sounds a bit more paperwork than it might be worth. Ill have to maybe look into finding an older machine with PCI on it but i definitly want to run it on one of my machines. Also would it b possible to sett up an emutlation of parallel processing running FreeBSD, i mean partitioning out the job load so that one machine runs s part of a, lets say graphics program, job while another machine runs another job. Sorry about that bad explanetion but its been a while. I just remember seeing it done on some unix machines. Thank you, Kjell Kjell E. Grotland kegrotla@korrnet.org Where do you seek the Beloved? On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Warner Losh wrote: > In message > Kjell E > Grotland writes: > : Thanks for your reply as to the micro channel question. Do you think > : there will be a FreeBSD in the future which will support microchannel. > > While I'm not a FreeBSD core member and can't speak for them, I really > doubt it. It is too poorly documented in the publicly available > documentation to consider supporting. About the only way it will be > supported is if we have someone inside IBM that can get access to the > docs do it, and if we can get the legal requirements squared away... > > Warner > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 17:04:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA24420 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA24352 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08486; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:03:35 -0800 (PST) To: Snob Art Genre cc: "K.J.Koster" , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:14:17 PST." Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:03:35 -0800 Message-ID: <8484.848970215@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Msdosfs is seriously broken. It has twice damaged my filesystem to the > extent that I had to reinstall FreeBSD. Don't use it. > > There is no documentation of the fact that it's that screwed up, which is > something that whoever's responsible for documenting these things might > want to look into. We should probably just remove it entirely for now. I have some stand-alone dosfs reading code which Robert Nordier gave me and I intend to use for sysinstall, so that's that case covered. Otherwise, as you've already found out, you take your life in your hands with msdosfs. Any strong votes to the contrary? I don't think there's anything about the current msdosfs we want to keep anyway. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 17:21:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA25219 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA25212 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08536; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:17:25 -0800 (PST) To: brantk@atlas.com cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco), peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:28:48 PST." <199611252128.NAA12882@itchy.atlas.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:17:24 -0800 Message-ID: <8534.848971044@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How 'bout I do it as a command-line util first (cf. pkg_* tools) > and then wedge in a convenient user interface later? I think pretty much all UNIX utilities should be done this way - it makes it possible to add more interesting front-ends later. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 17:24:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA25303 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [199.184.181.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA25257 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:23:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from right.PCS (right.pcs. [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18992; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:49:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id BAA27475; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:20:49 GMT Message-Id: <199611260120.BAA27475@right.PCS> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:20:48 -0600 From: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Cc: kegrotla@korrnet.org (Kjell E Grotland), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.48.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: ; from Warner Losh on Nov 25, 1996 17:55:52 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh writes: > In message > Kjell E > Grotland writes: > : Thanks for your reply as to the micro channel question. Do you think > : there will be a FreeBSD in the future which will support microchannel. > > While I'm not a FreeBSD core member and can't speak for them, I really > doubt it. It is too poorly documented in the publicly available > documentation to consider supporting. About the only way it will be > supported is if we have someone inside IBM that can get access to the > docs do it, and if we can get the legal requirements squared away... Is IBM even building MCA machines anymore? But it might be interesting to have FBSD support them. The university here is selling piles of these old 386 PS/2 machines for something like $5/stack of 8. (Yes, they are stripped, but they still work.) Might make nice (really really cheap) routers. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 18:03:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA27363 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA27354 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:03:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08668; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:56:43 -0800 (PST) To: Joe Greco cc: brantk@atlas.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:55:45 CST." <199611252155.PAA15684@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:56:43 -0800 Message-ID: <8666.848973403@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It may be. :-) Make sure that you also add a > > pkg_control -enable sendmail # fix it (unless was removed) > > too. I'm not sure that pkg_control is the right interface point, however, as it brings up unpleasant connotations of the ioctl() interface which is braindamaged enough already. :-) Perhaps something specifically for controlling mail system behavior could be devised, one aspect of which could be MTA selection. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 18:08:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA27641 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA27613 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA02586; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:08:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:08:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199611260208.TAA02586@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Snob Art Genre , "K.J.Koster" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <8484.848970215@time.cdrom.com> References: <8484.848970215@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Msdosfs is seriously broken. It has twice damaged my filesystem to the > > extent that I had to reinstall FreeBSD. Don't use it. > > We should probably just remove it entirely for now. I have some > stand-alone dosfs reading code which Robert Nordier gave me and I > intend to use for sysinstall, so that's that case covered. Otherwise, > as you've already found out, you take your life in your hands with > msdosfs. I use it all the time, but I'm *very* careful not to run more than one process on the FS, and I unmount the darn thing as soon as I read/write the files to the FS. It works as long as I treat it like fragile china, and not having it would be a real setback for me. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 18:21:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA28518 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA28344; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:19:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.3/8.6.9) id NAA20353; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:10:40 +1100 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:10:40 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199611260210.NAA20353@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, sos@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hang your machine with ScrollLock Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, mtaylor@cybernet.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > > As soon as I hit the scroll-lock key, everything was fine- >> > > all of the uptime processes completed, and name serving >> > > went on as usual. >> >> I belive this to be fixed in what was 2.2-current long ago... Nope. There is no bug to fix. Scroll lock says to stop output, so the tty buffer fills up after a while and the tty driver sleeps on "ttywri". Workaround: `comcontrol /dev/console drainwait 10' times out the sleep after 10 seconds. write() returns -1/EIO or a short count. Applications may be confused by this. EIO normally means hangup. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 18:26:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA28806 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:26:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA28792 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:25:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA08818; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:25:10 -0800 (PST) To: Kjell E Grotland cc: Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:54:12 EST." Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:25:10 -0800 Message-ID: <8816.848975110@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Michael, > Thanks for your reply as i replied to Warner (sorry i thought your > first name was Losh), i will look into AIX for PS/2 for the 57SLC. Probably a good idea - I don't think that PS/2 support is in our immediate, if ever, future. > Oh by the way i have heard a rumour that MAC PowerPCs will support > FreeBSD. Any truth to this. That would be just totally awsome. Running > FreeBSD on a RISC chip machine. I think it's false. I've certainly not heard of any plans to do this. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 18:36:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA29531 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA29449 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA08869; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:33:46 -0800 (PST) To: Nate Williams cc: Snob Art Genre , "K.J.Koster" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:08:10 MST." <199611260208.TAA02586@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:33:45 -0800 Message-ID: <8867.848975625@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I use it all the time, but I'm *very* careful not to run more than one > process on the FS, and I unmount the darn thing as soon as I read/write > the files to the FS. > > It works as long as I treat it like fragile china, and not having it > would be a real setback for me. I understand this, but you also have to realize that many people don't understand the fragile china approach (and with justification - how *would* one generally know?) and it's a real setback to have your UFS filesystems blown away too. :-) I'd welcome some compromise solutions, otherwise I think it's simply too dangerous to advertise, explicitly or implicitly, as a feature. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 18:53:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01052 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01037; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id UAA16144; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:52:26 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611260252.UAA16144@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Hang your machine with ScrollLock To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:52:26 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, sos@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, mtaylor@cybernet.com In-Reply-To: <199611260210.NAA20353@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Nov 26, 96 01:10:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> > > As soon as I hit the scroll-lock key, everything was fine- > >> > > all of the uptime processes completed, and name serving > >> > > went on as usual. > >> > >> I belive this to be fixed in what was 2.2-current long ago... > > Nope. There is no bug to fix. Scroll lock says to stop output, so the > tty buffer fills up after a while and the tty driver sleeps on "ttywri". I agree that this is technically not a "bug" in the strictest sense. Syscons did the "right" thing. You may wish to explain that to the mechanical keyboard switch a friend of mine uses that caused a script to hang... fortunately since the script was not sitting there forking constantly, it did not kill the machine, it just looked real strange to see seven users listed as "on" with only one modem active. In my opinion, this makes the mandatory enabling of the "scroll lock" key an undesirable misfeature (at least in certain cases), and some people would argue that that means that it is a "bug" from the point of view of usability/reliability/practicality. > Workaround: `comcontrol /dev/console drainwait 10' times out the sleep > after 10 seconds. write() returns -1/EIO or a short count. Applications > may be confused by this. EIO normally means hangup. Can the scroll lock key be disabled? I mean, it can be done with a new keyboard map, remapping on _all_ vty's, but scrollback is a moderately useful function. That is why I was curious if it could be tied into "kbdcontrol -h 0" (currently illegal) or the cases where "kbdcontrol -h n" is smaller than the current screen size (kbdcontrol -h 1 causes scroll lock to function as scroll lock, and it looks like internally syscons does not even store a history for this case). It is certainly not a real important feature, but some of us do like to put up status displays, and it would be nice if one could protect the system from something like what happened to the fellow with the cron job. But whatever. ;-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 18:54:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01111 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sergio.lenzi ([200.247.23.105]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01095 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lenzi@localhost) by sergio.lenzi (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06369; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:45:12 GMT Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:45:10 +0000 () From: "Lenzi, Sergio" X-Sender: lenzi@sergio To: Darren Davis cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Darren Davis wrote: > I was checking out the Inferno Web page http://inferno.lucent.com OK. I took a look at the inferno, and seems to be a good development plattform. I have also send a "form" to bell labs indicating that I use FreeBSD. Sergio Lenzi. Unix consult. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 19:25:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA02275 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA02254 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:24:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id VAA16166; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:19:04 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611260319.VAA16166@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:19:04 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <8666.848973403@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 25, 96 05:56:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It may be. :-) Make sure that you also add a > > > > pkg_control -enable sendmail # fix it (unless was removed) > > > > too. > > I'm not sure that pkg_control is the right interface point, however, > as it brings up unpleasant connotations of the ioctl() interface which > is braindamaged enough already. :-) > > Perhaps something specifically for controlling mail system behavior > could be devised, one aspect of which could be MTA selection. Hi Jordan, Read the thread :-) We were talking about a generalized mechanism that could be used to disable specific portions of the system (or maybe even remove them). Does it make sense to have the LPD software on a box with no printer around? Granted it is not a MAJOR security risk, but there have been security exploits. Does it make sense to have the SLIP/PPP software on a shell account server, where they would never be used? I believe a hole in iijppp has been publicized. A tool to manage MTA's is acceptable for the purposes of the Great Sendmail War discussion. A tool to manage setuid executables (enable/disable such services) by adding or removing the setuid bits is a nice idea, and somewhat more useful. I generalized this even further by extrapolating that at some point, certain services may be considered totally unnecessary and inappropriate on a particular type of system. For example, on a router, it might not make sense to have UUCP, LPR, and mail services. All three are suid, take up some space, and have nothing to do with packet routing. This could potentially be considered a security problem. It is definitely a nuisance for me when I am trying to squeeze FreeBSD onto a 85MB IDE disk. What about the compiler? Does it make sense to have the compiler, which when you consider /usr/include, /usr/lib/*.a, /usr/libexec/cc*, etc. on a dedicated X workstation? That is a real nuisance in a public computer lab where the machines are all diskless booted and every effort is made to secure them. What I am getting at: FreeBSD has only a vague concept of "optional system component packages", such as man pages, /usr/dict, etc. Some of us would like to see this split up further. Lacking a real infrastructure to do so, maybe a good first step is to at least target the "components" in question, and design a carving knife that can deal with them. Advantages: 1) Enhanced security through reduction of unnecessary setuid programs on a particular machine. 2) Possibly reduced OS footprint. 3) Allow easy removal of {default system package, i.e. Sendmail} in favor of alternative replacement {i.e. Qmail/Smail} 4) Provides framework/guidelines for someone to go and build a truly "componentized" FreeBSD release mechanism. Call it "proof of concept". 5) Could be extended to work transparently with the existing ports mechanism. % cd /usr/ports/mta/qmail % make [...] # make install [...] Do you wish to replace Sendmail with Qmail as your default system MTA? yes Do you wish to (D)isable or (R)emove Sendmail? r # Disadvantages: 1) Not a real componentized FreeBSD release. In any case, I would rather NOT see a tool simply to select a MTA and enable/disable it. If we are going to build a tool, I would rather see a nice generalized tool that can be extended into other useful areas. Comments welcome. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 19:25:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA02287 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA02257 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id VAA16194; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:23:43 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611260323.VAA16194@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb d To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:23:43 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "David Kelly" at Nov 25, 96 06:30:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Building the internal SCSI cable isn't going to be too hard but the > power routing looks like it could be a disaster if I try to do it > the easy way and buy bunches of 1-in-2-out power splitters. Have > seen insulation-displacement style floppy/hard drive power > connectors on some systems lately but haven't found a source. It > would be pretty easy to run a power bus with those power connectors > pressed on at each hard drive, much like the 50 pin connector on > ribbon cable for SCSI. > > Anybody know of a source of these power connectors? I think DigiKey. But you do NOT want to do this, I think! I strongly suspect that you will find that the voltage at the end of your "power bus" will be sufficiently less than the power you are feeding into it... you would be better off getting a bunch of old power supply leads, connecting them all to a 4 pole barrier strip, and feeding them that way. I am sure someone will tell me I am wrong ;-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 19:50:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA04522 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA04482 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA02926; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:48:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:48:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199611260348.UAA02926@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <8867.848975625@time.cdrom.com> References: <199611260208.TAA02586@rocky.mt.sri.com> <8867.848975625@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Removing MSDOSFS ] > > I use it all the time, but I'm *very* careful not to run more than one > > process on the FS, and I unmount the darn thing as soon as I read/write > > the files to the FS. > > > > It works as long as I treat it like fragile china, and not having it > > would be a real setback for me. > > I understand this, but you also have to realize that many people don't > understand the fragile china approach (and with justification - how > *would* one generally know?) and it's a real setback to have your UFS > filesystems blown away too. :-) Agreed, but removing it wholesale isn't a very good approach either, since it also means that someone who might have the gumption to fix it won't have a starting point. We ship lots of broken FS implementations now, so I think we should continue to ship a broken/hobbling MSDOSFS. Simply not advertising it is one solution, or have mount_msdos print out something 'Danger Will Robinson, danger' might be a solution. :) :) Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 19:54:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA04762 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA04744 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA09166; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:52:20 -0800 (PST) To: "Brian N. Handy" cc: Nate Williams , Snob Art Genre , "K.J.Koster" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:46:45 PST." Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:52:19 -0800 Message-ID: <9164.848980339@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Would it be sufficient to comment it out of GENERIC (or remove it entirely > and leave it in LINT), and maybe add a comment suggesting it's a bull > running through a china shop? I could live with that. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 19:57:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA05072 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA05035 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.8.2/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA13247; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:51:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611260351.WAA13247@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Snob Art Genre , "K.J.Koster" , hackers@FreeBSD.org From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. References: <8484.848970215@time.cdrom.com> <199611260208.TAA02586@rocky.mt.sri.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:08:10 MST." <199611260208.TAA02586@rocky.mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:51:34 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I use it all the time, but I'm *very* careful not to run more than one > process on the FS, and I unmount the darn thing as soon as I read/write > the files to the FS. Yes, I use msdosfs quite a bit, but with the FS mounted read-only. It seems less likely to cause difficulties in that mode, and generally seems to be OK. > It works as long as I treat it like fragile china, and not having it > would be a real setback for me. Yeah, same here. It's certainly more convienient than the standalone dos file system tools for stuff I'm using it for. Perhaps it should "somehow" default to read-only usage? louie From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 20:01:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA05351 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA05339 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA09147; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:50:39 -0800 (PST) To: Joe Greco cc: brantk@atlas.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:19:04 CST." <199611260319.VAA16166@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:50:39 -0800 Message-ID: <9145.848980239@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Read the thread :-) > > We were talking about a generalized mechanism that could be used to > disable specific portions of the system (or maybe even remove them). I did, but I still don't think that this is the kind of thing which requires one hammer - such a tool would be large and unwieldy. Rather, I think that this should be handled by a *family* of configuration tools, each of which handles a distinct type of "package configuration." One for mail, one for printing, one for routing, one for ppp, so on and so forth. > A tool to manage setuid executables (enable/disable such services) > by adding or removing the setuid bits is a nice idea, and somewhat > more useful. Sort of - each tool needs (or doesn't need) suid privileges for different reasons, and while they might have the suid bit in common I don't think that there's much more commonality than that. You still want to be able to say things like "priviledged or non-privileged printing services?", "privileged or non-priviliged email delivery?" and in each case you're going to do entirely different things to provide the non-privileged alternative. This does not suggest a single tool to me. This suggests, as I said, at most a family of tools which perhaps adopt some uniform constraints on argument syntax and such but are still separate. If we then build another tool for dispatching the individual tools, perhaps a menuing shell along the lines of SCO's old "sysadmsh", then that's fine since it still doesn't have to have inbuilt smarts for every conceivable type of system administration task. Perhaps we're in violent agreement here and simply using different terms, I don't know. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 20:10:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA05818 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA05676 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA05841; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:46:45 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:46:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , Snob Art Genre , "K.J.Koster" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <8867.848975625@time.cdrom.com> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [msdosfs] >> It works as long as I treat it like fragile china, and not having it >> would be a real setback for me. > >I understand this, but you also have to realize that many people don't >understand the fragile china approach (and with justification - how >*would* one generally know?) and it's a real setback to have your UFS >filesystems blown away too. :-) > >I'd welcome some compromise solutions, otherwise I think it's simply >too dangerous to advertise, explicitly or implicitly, as a feature. Would it be sufficient to comment it out of GENERIC (or remove it entirely and leave it in LINT), and maybe add a comment suggesting it's a bull running through a china shop? Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 20:12:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA06141 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:12:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA06073 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vSErk-00007d-00; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:11:24 -0700 To: Kjell E Grotland Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC Cc: Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:54:12 EST." References: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:11:23 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Kjell E Grotland writes: : Oh by the way i have heard a rumour that MAC PowerPCs will support : FreeBSD. Any truth to this. That would be just totally awsome. Running : FreeBSD on a RISC chip machine. There have been musings around the list about doing this, but I've not seen any indication that these are ready for prime time, or even late nite :-). If there really are non-intel ports of FreeBSD being actively worked on, I'd love to hear about them. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 20:15:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA06313 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA06271 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:15:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id UAA11332 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vSEtj-00007m-00; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:13:28 -0700 To: Kjell E Grotland Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC Cc: Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:59:00 EST." References: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:13:27 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Kjell E Grotland writes: : That sounds a bit more paperwork than it might be worth. Ill have to : maybe look into finding an older machine with PCI on it but i definitly : want to run it on one of my machines. Also would it b possible to sett up : an emutlation of parallel processing running FreeBSD, i mean partitioning : out the job load so that one machine runs s part of a, lets say graphics : program, job while another machine runs another job. Sorry about that bad : explanetion but its been a while. I just remember seeing it done on some : unix machines. I think so, but I'm not at all sure. I believe that there were some simulation ports checked in recently. Also, there is on going work with a thread safe and threading libc. Finally, SMP, symetric multi-processing, is an on going project that is likely to be merged into the main line sources shortly. I'm not sure which of these you are talking about, if any, but FreeBSD has these features on the horizon or in the system. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 20:16:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA06331 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA06300 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:15:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id UAA11337 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vSEvW-00007z-00; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:15:18 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC Cc: Kjell E Grotland , Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:25:10 PST." <8816.848975110@time.cdrom.com> References: <8816.848975110@time.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:15:18 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <8816.848975110@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: : > Oh by the way i have heard a rumour that MAC PowerPCs will support : > FreeBSD. Any truth to this. That would be just totally awsome. Running : > FreeBSD on a RISC chip machine. : : I think it's false. I've certainly not heard of any plans to do this. Oh, I just realized that NetBSD just had a whole slug of Power PC stuff checked into it. I don't know which machines they support at this time, but that might be a reasonable alternative. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 20:18:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA06598 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA06560; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:17:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com ([204.244.213.33]) by misery.sdf.com with SMTP id <1344-9462>; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:17:40 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:17:34 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Samplonius To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: peter@freebsd.org Subject: Local CVS commits (and cvsup) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have some questions about the CVS "Local Commit" feature. I understand the basic idea of setting CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM, but not the actual procedure. I assume something like the following is required: cvs co src (edit a file) setenv CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM 1000 cvs commit (edited file) # commit is made on unique, new branch But what is recommended way of hacking stuff in $CVSROOT/CVSROOT to allow non-freefall committers? How would I "protect" local changes in this directory from removal by cvsup? Since this directory is just book keeping, and technically not part of the repository, cvsup's local commit protection will not work on them will it, right? Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 20:29:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA07271 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from dyslexic.phoenix.net (root@dyslexic.phoenix.net [199.3.233.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07262 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by dyslexic.phoenix.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA23653; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:28:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:28:21 -0600 (CST) From: FreeBSD Acct To: michael butler cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disk Striping In-Reply-To: <199611220729.SAA11415@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, michael butler wrote: > > Our news servers here, are P166's with 128Mb each, with two Adaptec3940 > > PCI cards. > > > There are four 4Gig drives, each has its own separage SCSI controller as > > the 3940 has two controllers per card. > > > The drives are identical, and in a CCD array. > > [ .. ] > > > Compared to how we had the news farm before..the CCD is many many times > > faster and more efficient. > > With no readers (and therefore no need for .overview files all over the > place to mess things up), this combo will *scream* along quite happily at > better than 10 articles a second iff the accesses for history and articles > are on separate CCD arrays on separate channels. Short of getting "async" > mode to work properly, there's not much better. No..we keep overview files..the whole lot. The server has never reported being slow, or behind. It takes everything offered to it from each of 6 different newsfeeds, plus clari. The slave server, which is for readers only, works even better..with overviews as well. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 20:32:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA07545 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (root@spinner.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07521 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:32:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from spinner.DIALix.COM (peter@localhost.DIALix.oz.au [127.0.0.1]) by spinner.DIALix.COM (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA05157; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:31:42 +0800 (WST) Message-Id: <199611260431.MAA05157@spinner.DIALix.COM> To: Tom Samplonius cc: jdp@polstra.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Local CVS commits (and cvsup) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:17:34 PST." Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:31:41 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tom Samplonius wrote: > > I have some questions about the CVS "Local Commit" feature. I > understand the basic idea of setting CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM, but not the > actual procedure. > > I assume something like the following is required: > > cvs co src > (edit a file) > setenv CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM 1000 > cvs commit (edited file) # commit is made on unique, new branch > > > But what is recommended way of hacking stuff in $CVSROOT/CVSROOT to > allow non-freefall committers? How would I "protect" local changes in > this directory from removal by cvsup? Since this directory is just book > keeping, and technically not part of the repository, cvsup's local commit > protection will not work on them will it, right? > > Tom I'm sure John Polstra can fill in some more details, but there's a couple of extra steps needed. Yes, you need to set CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM. But you also need to create a local branch on the files you want to edit... eg: setenv CVS_LOCAL_BRANCH_NUM 1000 cvs tag -b MY_BRANCH file.c cvs update -r MY_BRANCH file.c cvs commit file.c But beware, you will no longer see changes made in -current, you'll have to merge them in manually, and this can get quite messy since cvs has no way of remembering what you have merged so far.. 'cvs update -jHEAD' will produce the same merge conflicts over and over again, and create new ones as time goes by. Another option is to tag the HEAD revision each time you merge.. eg: cvs tag MERGE_BASE file.c cvs tag -b MY_BRANCH file.c ... edit, commit etc. .. cvsup, new deltas arrive that you want to integrate... cvs tag MERGE_1 file.c cvs update -j MERGE_BASE -j MERGE_1 file.c cvs commit -m 'merged changes from -current' file.c .. etc. Also, be aware of the 'cvs update -f' option, you use it like this: cvs update -f -r MY_BRANCH This causes you to use the -current version for everything but use your version for files that have a MY_BRANCH tag on them. You can tell cvsup to leave your CVSROOT/* alone by creating a sup//refuse file. I've done this before with cvsup but don't remember the details. Also, you need to modify your supfile a little.. I think you need to remove the "delete" keyword to stop cvsup trying to delete stuff that you've added. It can't tell the difference between things you've added and things that have been deleted on freefall, so you have to be very careful here, as you can end up with stray files. Cheers, -Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 21:11:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA09158 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:11:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA09146 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA01864; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:10:54 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:10:53 +1100 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Bruce Evans cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Hang your machine with ScrollLock In-Reply-To: <199611260210.NAA20353@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Bruce Evans wrote: > >> > > As soon as I hit the scroll-lock key, everything was fine- > >> > > all of the uptime processes completed, and name serving > >> > > went on as usual. > >> > >> I belive this to be fixed in what was 2.2-current long ago... > > Nope. There is no bug to fix. Scroll lock says to stop output, so the > tty buffer fills up after a while and the tty driver sleeps on "ttywri". > > Workaround: `comcontrol /dev/console drainwait 10' times out the sleep > after 10 seconds. write() returns -1/EIO or a short count. Applications > may be confused by this. EIO normally means hangup. Would it be possible to put a timeout on the scroll lock, such that after 10 minutes the state is toggled back to 'off'? Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 21:17:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA09620 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:17:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA09607 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA16079; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:17:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA26724; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:19:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:19:01 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Snob Art Genre , "K.J.Koster" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <8484.848970215@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Any strong votes to the contrary? I don't think there's anything > about the current msdosfs we want to keep anyway. It works great for reading 3 1/2" floppies. This is fairly important... From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 21:17:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA09650 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from everest.dtr.com (livdial5.fta.com [205.139.102.199]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA09586 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:16:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bmk@localhost) by everest.dtr.com (8.8.2/8.6.12) id VAA01010; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:11:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611260511.VAA01010@everest.dtr.com> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:11:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, ben@narcissus.ml.org, kjk1@ukc.ac.uk, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611260208.TAA02586@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Nov 25, 96 07:08:10 pm" From: "Brant M. Katkansky" Reply-To: bmk@fta.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Msdosfs is seriously broken. It has twice damaged my filesystem to the > > > extent that I had to reinstall FreeBSD. Don't use it. > > > > We should probably just remove it entirely for now. I have some > > stand-alone dosfs reading code which Robert Nordier gave me and I > > intend to use for sysinstall, so that's that case covered. Otherwise, > > as you've already found out, you take your life in your hands with > > msdosfs. > I use it all the time, but I'm *very* careful not to run more than one > process on the FS, and I unmount the darn thing as soon as I read/write > the files to the FS. > It works as long as I treat it like fragile china, and not having it > would be a real setback for me. "Me too." I treat mine more or less the same as Nate, and I have never had a problem. I would hate to see it go away, but I think it'd be reasonable to warn novice users in the documentation (or do we already?). From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 21:30:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA10475 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from everest.dtr.com (livdial5.fta.com [205.139.102.199]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA10403 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bmk@localhost) by everest.dtr.com (8.8.2/8.6.12) id VAA01070; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:25:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611260525.VAA01070@everest.dtr.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:25:17 -0800 (PST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <8666.848973403@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 25, 96 05:56:43 pm" From: "Brant M. Katkansky" Reply-To: bmk@fta.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It may be. :-) Make sure that you also add a > > > > pkg_control -enable sendmail # fix it (unless was removed) > > > > too. > I'm not sure that pkg_control is the right interface point, however, > as it brings up unpleasant connotations of the ioctl() interface which > is braindamaged enough already. :-) > Perhaps something specifically for controlling mail system behavior > could be devised, one aspect of which could be MTA selection. I'm envisioning something more general-purpose, eventually (optionally) hidden behind a slick user interface. MTA selection can be handled by doing 'pkg_control -disable sendmail; pkg_control -enable qmail'. Of course, for novices, this operation would be hidden behind the slick UI that hasn't been written yet. I've already written the framework for this. See http://www.pobox.com/~bmk/pkg_control.tar.gz if you're interested in what's been done so far. I'd like to hear your input. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 21:48:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11453 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA11442 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:48:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA10568 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:48:29 -0800 (PST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Freefall users: sd0 on freefall being replaced! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:48:28 -0800 Message-ID: <10564.848987308@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The long-suffering sd0 on freefall has finally started to give up the ghost. I think it's around 3 years old at this point and has definitely endured the tortures of Job in its role there, so its impending demise comes as little surprise. Anyone who's ever put his ear to freefall will know that the disks never stop - the disk access light is a solid red, 24 hours a day. :-) In any case, a replacement drive will be purchased and freefall reinstalled with 2.1.6.1 sometime in the next few days. When I swapped the NCR controller for a 2940 way back when, the geometry also changed and it's been a real pain to have to boot freefall with the aid of a floppy all this time so the real necessity for a reinstall is actually a welcome development, and long overdue. In any case, since many people's home dirs are on sd0s2g (/a) I'd like to ask that you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE delete any and all unnecessary cruft so that I don't have to laboriously back up and restore it. The quicker I'm able to do this, the less downtime you'll all have to suffer and the happier all of us will be. I know that several of you have large chunks of the source tree checked out and it'd be nice if you could free up that space again before I needlessly attempt to save it. I also haven't got a DAT or EXABYTE drive handy, so it's going to be a question of backing things up onto another one of our boxes, and the less hunting around for space I have to do, the faster this will go. Thanks! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 22:03:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA12375 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA12367 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:03:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id QAA01914; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:30:35 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611260600.QAA01914@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <199611260348.UAA02926@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Nov 25, 96 08:48:57 pm" To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:30:34 +1030 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@mt.sri.com, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > Simply not advertising it is one solution, or have mount_msdos print out > something 'Danger Will Robinson, danger' might be a solution. :) :) Hmm; how is Robert N. actually going with his reimplementation? Around March or so he was saying he needed prompting to get it done 8) 8) (says Mike with his own pile of half-completed projects on his nerves 8( ) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 22:05:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA12560 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA12553 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:05:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA10629; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:03:52 -0800 (PST) To: bmk@fta.com cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:25:17 PST." <199611260525.VAA01070@everest.dtr.com> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:03:52 -0800 Message-ID: <10627.848988232@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > MTA selection can be handled by doing 'pkg_control -disable sendmail; > pkg_control -enable qmail'. Of course, for novices, this operation > would be hidden behind the slick UI that hasn't been written yet. Ok, well, the real question I still have here is "what determines the intelligence behind the enable/disable action?" What I mean by this is that while it's relatively easy to quantify the enable/disable actions for sendmail/qmail, by calling your utility "pkg_control" you're intimating that this thing will work effectively for *all* packages which might be enabled or disabled. To use a totally contrived example, let's say I wanted to disable all forms of remote login access except for ssh (as many people do). I would expect to be able to say: pkg_control -enable ssh pkg_control -disable rlogin,telnet [yes, I know that rlogin and telnet aren't packages but ssh is, so already we're into a real grey area, just as with sendmail]. The actions behind making this happen are quite different than the sendmail/qmail selection actions, and this package-specific intelligence has to go *somewhere*, right? Or let's say I wanted to install apsfilter as my default printer filter. I might want to say: pkg_control -enable apsfilter Which would entail yet another entirely different set of operations. Short of making pkg_control a humongous beast from hell with inate knowledge of every possible package you might want to enable or disable, it seems like a generic package control program is something of a bitch to do, and by calling it "pkg_control" that's exactly what you're suggesting it does. That's why I suggest doing this more incrementally by service type. In my examples, there would actually be something like 3 different commands: mail_control -enable qmail -disable sendmail access_control -incoming -enable ssh -disable rlogin,telnet lp_control -enable apsfilter Each command would have a much easier time of it since it only has to know about a limited set of services. By keeping the argument names orthogonal (though I think that -enable and -disable are a bit stretched in some of these examples :-), it's also easier to write a front end which can feed them all. Just my 2 cents. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 22:13:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA12953 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:13:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA12948 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA10652; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:08:44 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Smith cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:30:34 +1030." <199611260600.QAA01914@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:08:43 -0800 Message-ID: <10650.848988523@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmm; how is Robert N. actually going with his reimplementation? Around > March or so he was saying he needed prompting to get it done 8) 8) When I asked him, he said that work had taken over his life and he was now simply a hollow shell of his former self. :-) [perhaps I'm paraphrasing somewhat, but that was the essence of his message] I'm not expecting to see anything substantial done to msdosfs for at least another 6-12 months, if in fact ever. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 22:17:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA13108 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA13096 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.3/8.6.9) id RAA28594; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:12:07 +1100 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:12:07 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199611260612.RAA28594@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. Cc: ben@narcissus.ml.org, hackers@freebsd.org, kjk1@ukc.ac.uk, nate@mt.sri.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Would it be sufficient to comment it out of GENERIC (or remove it entirely >> and leave it in LINT), and maybe add a comment suggesting it's a bull >> running through a china shop? No, that would make it more dangerous. It's always available as an lkm. I have no problems with it mounted read-only for small DOS slices (90MB and 256MB, cluster sizes 2K and 4K). There may be a problem for cluster sizes > 16K (DOS slices > 1G). MAXBSIZE is only 16K. ufs doesn't allow mounting file systems with a block size larger than this, but msdosfs allows any cluster size up to 255 sectors. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 22:31:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA13897 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:31:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA13882 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA07850; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:31:00 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:31:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Snob Art Genre , "K.J.Koster" , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: >On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Any strong votes to the contrary? I don't think there's anything >> about the current msdosfs we want to keep anyway. > >It works great for reading 3 1/2" floppies. This is fairly important... This is mostly what I use it for as well. Is msdosfs so evil as to corrupt my ... uh ... oh, /usr partition if I have /floppy mounted, for example? Or does it just go after it's own physical disk? Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 22:34:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA14106 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (root@cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.2.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA14088 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA18442 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:33:44 -0200 (EDT) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199611260633.EAA18442@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Mylex Raid Adapter To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:33:43 -0200 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Is there any chance for FreeBSD to recognize and use a Mylex SCSI Raid Adapter ? If not, are there any plans for it ? I don't know which model it is. I just know it has a i960 processor, and is sold by IBM inside it's PC Server 320. Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 ( Job ) jonny@cisi.coppe.ufrj.br Network Manager UFRJ/COPPE/CISI Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 22:54:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA15369 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:54:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [149.174.206.137]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA15349 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:54:24 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id BAA17810; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:53:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:52:44 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1662 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611260154_MC1-BCB-622F@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1662 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-20-96 11:57:00 PM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1662 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 22:54:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA15415 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.217.135]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA15395 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 22:54:37 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id BAA29755; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:54:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:52:44 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1662 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611260154_MC1-BCB-622F@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from smyrno.sol.net (smyrno.sol.net [206.55.64.117]) by hil-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id XAA03433; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:57:19 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by smyrno.sol.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA28464; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:53:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA02853 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:07:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:07:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611210407.UAA02853@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1662 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Wednesday, 20 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1662 In this issue: Help identifying a compressed file Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) RELENG_2_2 and cvs sticky tags Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: Ipx to ip routing wcarchive is DOWN. URGENT Re: RELENG_2_2 and cvs sticky tags socket.h WP 7.0 message :-) Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: wcarchive is DOWN. URGENT Re: Help: ucd-snmpd w/freebsd Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Disk Striping WordPerfect 7.0? - use LyX instead Re: wcarchive is DOWN. URGENT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:16:42 +0100 Subject: Help identifying a compressed file Can anybody recognize this fileformat ? It's some kind of MS/DOS compressed file, but I don't know what program were used to compress it :-( 00000000 53 5a 44 44 88 f0 27 33 41 00 88 1c 03 00 ff 3f |SZDD..'3A......?| 00000010 5f 03 00 c3 35 00 00 7d ff f8 f0 88 1c 03 00 b3 |_...5..}........| 00000020 f5 f0 fd aa f5 f0 00 9c 06 00 01 bc ff 41 00 00 |.............A..| - -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. ------------------------------ From: Andrew Webster Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:42:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > > Wow...I'd like it, but $500 is sorta rich for my blood right now? How > > much for the student version? :-) > > I agree--I would love to have it--but 'vi' does just fine when price > compared to $500. > > -Brandon Gillespie How about a 'Not for Resale' version. You can purchase NFR WP for Windoze at a substantially reduced price if you are a VAR. Regards, Andrew Webster andrew@pubnix.net PubNIX Montreal Connected to the world Branche au monde P.O. Box 147 Cote Saint Luc, Quebec H4V 2Y3 tel 514.990.5911 http://www.pubnix.net fax 514.990.9443 ------------------------------ From: Michael Hancock Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:48:37 +0900 (JST) Subject: RELENG_2_2 and cvs sticky tags ARGH! My cvs update brought my source up to current. I thought sticky tags meant cvs update would do the right thing. $ cvs status ftpio.h =================================================================== File: ftpio.h Status: Up-to-date Working revision: 1.10 Wed Nov 20 17:45:45 1996 Repository revision: 1.10 /jaz/cvs/src/lib/libftpio/ftpio.h,v Sticky Tag: (none) Sticky Date: (none) Sticky Options: (none) $ cvs log ftpio.h RCS file: /jaz/cvs/src/lib/libftpio/ftpio.h,v Working file: ftpio.h head: 1.10 branch: locks: strict access list: symbolic names: RELENG_2_1_6_RELEASE: 1.2.2.3 RELENG_2_2: 1.8.0.2 RELENG_2_2_BP: 1.8 ------------------------------ From: Gary Kline Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:02:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) According to Marc G. Fournier: > On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do > > so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) > > > > I *really* hate to put a wrench in the works...but *please* do not > send a message to Coral if its only to bolster the numbers. I would > really hate for everyone to send in a mail message, get them to release > it for FreeBSD, and find 10% actually buy a copy...it would really really > set a bad precedent(sp?), which could hurt us long term... :( > > Indeed. I hope that WP 7.0 is the first of many prev'ly DOS-only or Mac-only ports. The one tool that I would buy is that checkbook/banking program. The way to initiate these ports to FreeBSD is to be willing to buy them. gary kline ------------------------------ From: "David Langford" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:05:31 -1000 (HST) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Brandon Gillespie >> Wow...I'd like it, but $500 is sorta rich for my blood right now? How >> much for the student version? :-) > >I agree--I would love to have it--but 'vi' does just fine when price >compared to $500. > >-Brandon Gillespie The Linux version of WP6 is available from Caldera for $295. (Works well under FreeBSD - though I HATE using Linux software) Why is there a $200 price difference for the single version change? - -David Langford langfod@dihelix.com ------------------------------ From: Tim Pierce Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:17:32 +0600 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > From: Terry Lambert > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:26:32 -0700 (MST) > > Has PERL syntax reached the top end of the inverse expotential curve > yet? If the last major rev is any indicator, the answer is "no". 8-(. > > When it starts to stagnate, then it will be safe. 8-). Again, the last major release of Perl was over two years ago, and since then the syntax has changed minimally (if at all, which I doubt). In fact, the reason given then for the watershed changes in Perl 5.000 was to attempt to "freeze" the basic Perl code base, and encourage extending the language through modules rather than kludging the interpreter. Perl has stagnated more in the last two years than FreeBSD has. ------------------------------ From: Andrew Stesin Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:19:47 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Hello people, On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > WP 7.0 for $500? You're out of your mind. If the software vendors didn't > rape UNIX users for using there software, maybe more of us would. Gmm. Let's everyone really write the message to Corel, but inserting your own actual idea of how much should it cost for you just go and buy it. Why should you lie, what for? Proposed template: To: wp@ec.camitel.com Subject: WP 7.0 For freeBSD Hello, I'll happily buy WP 7.0 for FreeBSD! _but_ at $67.95, not 495$; and if the price will be $49.95, I will shout at each street corner about such a great offer from Corel to us, free-UNIX users. (Please remember -- free-UNIX users aren't corporations!) Thanks! Name: Joe hacker tel: 2223322 Fax: 3332233 Adress: ... ZIP: ... Substitute your idea of reasonable price for WP 7.0 in the template above. :-) I'm not in US, so my idea of reasonability might differ from yours. BTW -- what will be WP 7.0 price for their winglows97 version? That might give us yet another approximation of price reasonability. - -- Best, Andrew Stesin nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE ------------------------------ From: Tom Samplonius Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:49:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > Joe Greco writes: > > > Ethernet switches are not supposed to do anything other than MAC level > > > address routing. > > > > > > Switches by definition will certainly allow IP address collisions because > > > they do not have a clue what the hell an IP address is. > > > > > > The other disadvantage of switches is the potentially large amount of > > > ARP'ing that can go on to locate hosts in such a network. > > > > I guess you're not aware of some of the stuff Synoptics/Bay makes. Check it > > out sometime - it may come in handy some day. > > What I'm aware of and what a switch - by definition - is, are two > potentially different things. > > Anything that performs switching at a non-MAC layer is not an Ethernet > switch, it is something else. > > "Learn the correct terminology - it may come in handy some day." > > ... JG Thats right. What has been described sounds like a bridge, not a switch. I guess you just have a big multi-port bridge. Probably supports 802.1D for interlinking bridges. Bridges learn IP addresses of systems connected to each segement, and uses this information to direct traffic. Tom ------------------------------ From: Eric Tremblay Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 15:52:47 -0800 Subject: wcarchive is DOWN. URGENT CRL called, wcarchive is down. The guy name at CRL is Arron 415-837-5300. Eric "E.T." Tremblay Walnut Creek CDROM eric@cdrom.com ------------------------------ From: Michael Hancock Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:40:30 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: RELENG_2_2 and cvs sticky tags Blush. Operator error. My .cvsrc file looks like this: update -d -P -A # -A forgets tags diff -u sigh. On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Michael Hancock wrote: > ARGH! > > My cvs update brought my source up to current. I thought sticky tags > meant cvs update would do the right thing. > > $ cvs status ftpio.h > =================================================================== > File: ftpio.h Status: Up-to-date > > Working revision: 1.10 Wed Nov 20 17:45:45 1996 > Repository revision: 1.10 /jaz/cvs/src/lib/libftpio/ftpio.h,v > Sticky Tag: (none) > Sticky Date: (none) > Sticky Options: (none) > > > $ cvs log ftpio.h > > RCS file: /jaz/cvs/src/lib/libftpio/ftpio.h,v > Working file: ftpio.h > head: 1.10 > branch: > locks: strict > access list: > symbolic names: > RELENG_2_1_6_RELEASE: 1.2.2.3 > RELENG_2_2: 1.8.0.2 > RELENG_2_2_BP: 1.8 > > ------------------------------ From: compland@ism.com.br (Helio Coelho Jr. - CompuLand Informatica) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:26:01 -0200 Subject: socket.h Hi: Sorry posting here. I'm not member of the developers group but I have a question that maybe someone from this list can help me ! The problem is that I'm tring to port an irc gateway to WWW, written by Zhong Yang in C. I'm stuck in the following: this is from /include/sys/socket.h struct sockaddr { u_char sa_len; /* total length */ u_char sa_family; /* address family */ char sa_data[14]; /* actually longer; address value */ this is from /include/netinet/in.h struct sockaddr_in { u_char sin_len; u_char sin_family; u_short sin_port; struct in_addr sin_addr; char sin_zero[8]; And here, the problem. That's actually part of the code of the gateway: struct sockaddr_in SocketInetAddr; ^^^^^^^^^^^ SocketInetAddr.sin_port = htons(Port); SocketDescriptor = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 6); if (SocketDescriptor < 0) { perror("socket"); return (-1); } if (connect(SocketDescriptor, ( char *) &SocketInetAddr, sizeof(SocketInetAddr)) < 0) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ RETURN_SUCCESS=1; else RETURN_SUCCESS=0; The above call to CONNECT reports an error because the connect function expects, in the second field, the use of sockaddr. But in the program, the call is for sockaddr_in. I don't know if in AIX or hpux this structures are the same, but I know that it works there ! Anyone has an idea how can I change this piece of code to put it to work in FreeBSD ? Thanks a lot! Sorry for the off_topic question! Regards, Helio. ------------------------------ From: Christian Fortin Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:31:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: WP 7.0 message :-) Hi evrybody... I just want to say: - -Thank's to pay attention to not replay to every group that I have put in the CC : !!! I have not think about band width !!! :-( - -I am not an international resseler of WP, I am just a guy that want to have WP on FreeBSD and try to force Corel to build a native version of WP 7.0 for FreeBSD. I just take a list of name who represent the more precilely that I can the population that want to pay for that.... - -Many person send an e-mail on wp@ec.camitel.com,... many say "I place order but it's expensive :-( ..." I will give all coments to Corel. Maybe they will drop the price ??? I dont know! - -The WP 6.2 that presently work on Linux and FreeBSD is ibcs2 binary...for SCO. Including the kit from Caldera... - -For the price, I don't now why it's 200$ of more than the regular price. That price is the price that Corel's guy have give to me... Maybe it's not the good price, but it's what I have receive from Corel's guy. If you want, send email to sales@corel.com - -For see what is WP 6.2 for SCO see: http://www.corel.com/products/unix/wpunix/index.htm - -For student version, I dont know about it... But usualy it's avalable for half the price. On 20-Nov-96 "David Langford" wrote: >>Brandon Gillespie >>> Wow...I'd like it, but $500 is sorta rich for my blood right now? How >>> much for the student version? :-) >> >>I agree--I would love to have it--but 'vi' does just fine when price >>compared to $500. >> >>-Brandon Gillespie > >The Linux version of WP6 is available from Caldera for $295. >(Works well under FreeBSD - though I HATE using Linux software) > >Why is there a $200 price difference for the single version change? > >-David Langford > langfod@dihelix.com - ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Christian Fortin Date: 11/20/96 Heure: 18:31:33 ##################################################--------+ Electro-Conception tel:(418) 872-6641 | 3665 Croisset fax:(418) 872-9198 | Quebec,P.Q. www.ec.camitel.com/ec | Canada ftp.ec.camitel.com | G1P-1L4 | /----|<|----WM--|(--J - --------------------------L---WM-----< \----1 --- - ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:42:29 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) > The Linux version of WP6 is available from Caldera for $295. > (Works well under FreeBSD - though I HATE using Linux software) > > Why is there a $200 price difference for the single version change? The ironic among us would say: Linux + WP + $200 == FreeBSD + WP 8-P. But that would, of course, be flame-bait to get the Linux advocacy at Corel to advocate a similar pricing for the FreeBSD release so Linux doesn't look (comparatively) $200 less desirable than FreeBSD... 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Ulf Zimmermann Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:30:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: wcarchive is DOWN. URGENT > > CRL called, wcarchive is down. The guy name at CRL is Arron 415-837-5300. > > Eric "E.T." Tremblay > Walnut Creek CDROM > eric@cdrom.com > Is anyone doing something about it ? Is man power missing ? I am right now still in Mountain View, if I can help. 415-933-1012 (pager 415-317-2420) Ulf. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Lamb Art Internet Services | http://www.Lamb.net/ | http://www.Alameda.net ------------------------------ From: michael butler Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:33:26 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Help: ucd-snmpd w/freebsd Peter Wemm writes: > I ran into this when setting up mrtg, and disabled the "optimisation" in > the snmpd code. I was unsure whether to commit the patch to the ports > collection, it makes very little difference in cpu resource consumption > but certainly makes a lot of strange side effects disappear. While you're at it .. if this hasn't already been addressed, could you please fix snmpnetstat to correct the byte-order of port numbers .. *** inet.c Sat Sep 30 06:43:19 1995 - --- /root/inet.c Fri Aug 2 16:15:33 1996 *************** *** 509,519 **** cp = (char *) index(line, '\0'); #endif if (!nflag && port) ! sp = getservbyport((int)port, proto); if (sp || port == 0) sprintf(cp, "%.8s", sp ? sp->s_name : "*"); else ! sprintf(cp, "%d", ntohs((u_short)port)); width = 22; printf(" %-*.*s", width, width, line); } - --- 509,519 ---- cp = (char *) index(line, '\0'); #endif if (!nflag && port) ! sp = getservbyport(ntohs(port), proto); if (sp || port == 0) sprintf(cp, "%.8s", sp ? sp->s_name : "*"); else ! sprintf(cp, "%d", (u_short)port); width = 22; printf(" %-*.*s", width, width, line); } ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:14:52 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! David Nugent stands accused of saying: > > Yes, I use it quite a bit, but in a base distribution I don't really > see it as an appropriate tool. It is certainly easier that programming > in, say, bourne shell, and probably significantly faster too. But I > still think it is a mistake it being part of the base system. I think that there's a very important line to be drawn between "I don't think I need it in the system" and "It should not be in the system". The former is fine, and probably applies to a lot of people. Then again, it can also be applied to 90% of the system for 90% of users - the point being that when you aggregate everything that people want/need, you cover prettymuch everything. My point is that there are a sufficient number of people that consider Perl a 'should-have' to justify its inclusion on those grounds. The latter point bears discussion; someone putting this point needs to offer a counter to the benefits promised by the former. So far, most of the arguments have been "because I don't think it should be" (which counts for very little), or "because Perl keeps changing" (which has been comprehensively refuted by Perl users I am inclined to trust). Other arguments that have been offered for the latter in previous discussions; "Perl is too big" (size is relative, disk is cheap), "Perl would be too hard to track" (contrib scheme should fix this). I'm still open to argument on this; I just haven't heard a counter that holds up under scrutiny. > David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: michael butler Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:51:56 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Disk Striping Darrin R. Woods writes: > I just got my news server up and running INN (thanks to everyone that > helped), but now I'm looking for a better way of dealing with it. I've got > 3 Fast/Wide 4gb disks to hold news. It would be a lot easier (and better > performance) if I could stripe (or span) the /var partition accross the 3 > disks instead of having to guess as to how to partition each drive and into > what sizes. With "only" three drives, you don't want to stripe across them. There are four activities which consume disk resources: i) maintenance of the active and history files ii) maintenance of the overview hierarchy iii) writing out the articles themselves iv) scribbling to /var/log/news Whilst the latter is comparatively "cheap" as it simply extends an existing file (writes deferred by caching), the first three are best spread across separate spindles for the best resultant performance. Striping or concatenation will hurt more than help, michael ------------------------------ From: Julian Assange Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:59:32 +1100 (EST) Subject: WordPerfect 7.0? - use LyX instead > > Wow...I'd like it, but $500 is sorta rich for my blood right now? How > > much for the student version? :-) > > I agree--I would love to have it--but 'vi' does just fine when price > compared to $500. > > -Brandon Gillespie Bah. Use LyX (very nice almost wysiwyg X11 front end to LaTeX). ftp://ftp.via.ecp.fr/pub/LyX/* - -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | C7F81C2AA32D7D4E4D360A2ED2098E0D | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: "John S. Dyson" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:06:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: wcarchive is DOWN. URGENT > > > > CRL called, wcarchive is down. The guy name at CRL is Arron 415-837-5300. > > > > Eric "E.T." Tremblay > > Walnut Creek CDROM > > eric@cdrom.com > > > > Is anyone doing something about it ? Is man power missing ? I am right now > still in Mountain View, if I can help. > We are working the wcarchive problem NOW, and it should be up in about 1/2 hour (it is currently 11:04 EST.) John dyson@freebsd.org ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1662 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 23:36:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA18552 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [206.169.44.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA18547 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (ulf@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net [206.169.44.2]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with ESMTP id XAA04528; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by Gatekeeper.Lamb.net (8.8.3/8.7.6) id XAA03207; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:36:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Ulf Zimmermann" Message-Id: <961125233615.ZM3205@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:36:15 -0800 In-Reply-To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis "Mylex Raid Adapter" (Nov 26, 4:33am) References: <199611260633.EAA18442@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0b.514 14may96) To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mylex Raid Adapter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 26, 4:33am, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > Subject: Mylex Raid Adapter > Hi, > > Is there any chance for FreeBSD to recognize and use a Mylex SCSI > Raid Adapter ? If not, are there any plans for it ? > > I don't know which model it is. I just know it has a i960 processor, > and is sold by IBM inside it's PC Server 320. > > Jonny > > -- > Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br > +55 21 290-4698 ( Job ) jonny@cisi.coppe.ufrj.br > Network Manager UFRJ/COPPE/CISI > Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro >-- End of excerpt from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Mylex wanted at some point give me the information needed to program a driver. If you can organize a controller for programming, I will contact Mylex again about the documents. -- Ulf. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Lamb Art Internet Services | http://www.Lamb.net/ | http://www.Alameda.net From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 23:52:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA19863 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA19818 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:52:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA14177 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:52:16 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA01551 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:52:16 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id IAA09562 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:39:27 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611260739.IAA09562@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:39:27 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <9164.848980339@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 25, 96 07:52:19 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Would it be sufficient to comment it out of GENERIC (or remove it entirely > > and leave it in LINT), and maybe add a comment suggesting it's a bull > > running through a china shop? > > I could live with that. ...though it wouldn't help you much, either. :-) mount_msdos will take care to load the LKM if it's not a static filesystem. That's how i use msdosfs on machines where i need it, and that (the mismatch between the kernel and the LKM) is also what started this thread, not the msdosfs brokeness per se. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Nov 25 23:53:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA20094 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA19852 for ; Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id IAA14185 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:52:17 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA01552 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:52:17 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id IAA09581 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:40:49 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611260740.IAA09581@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:40:49 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "Nov 26, 96 00:19:01 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > Any strong votes to the contrary? I don't think there's anything > > about the current msdosfs we want to keep anyway. > > It works great for reading 3 1/2" floppies. This is fairly important... It's at least basically usable (though fragile) for non-FIPS'ed DOS slices, too. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 00:23:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA24396 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA24380 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA15999; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:22:20 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA02129; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:22:20 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id JAA09865; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:04:00 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611260804.JAA09865@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Device Driver Writing. To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:04:00 +0100 (MET) Cc: ballanty@cs.sfu.ca (Rob Ballantyne) Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <329A2A46.5CC@cs.sfu.ca> from Rob Ballantyne at "Nov 25, 96 03:22:46 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Rob Ballantyne wrote: > I hope this isn't too much of an intrusion. I was wondering if > there is a reasonable source of information about writing device > drivers for FreeBSD? I have a couple of Device Driver books but > they tend to be about SCO or other SysV style UNIXs. Is there > documentation for the FreeBSD kernel's internal system calls (like > what would occur in section 9 of the man pages)? There is a section 9 now, but sparsely populated still. There's the 4.4BSD ``bible'' (The 4.4BSD Operating System. Design and Implementation. By McKusick et al., published at Addison-Wesley.) ``All documentation files usually end up in .c.'' (unknown source) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 00:43:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA27216 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA27197 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:43:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.3/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id IAA00727 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:43:41 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:43:40 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock Reply-To: Michael Hancock To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Subject: Re: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1662 In-Reply-To: <199611260154_MC1-BCB-622F@compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Where is our filter meister? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 00:47:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA27773 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA27756 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:47:41 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vSJB5-000QqrC; Tue, 26 Nov 96 09:47 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id JAA00507; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:39:46 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611260839.JAA00507@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <8867.848975625@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 25, 96 06:33:45 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:39:45 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: >> I use it all the time, but I'm *very* careful not to run more than one >> process on the FS, and I unmount the darn thing as soon as I read/write >> the files to the FS. >> >> It works as long as I treat it like fragile china, and not having it >> would be a real setback for me. > > I understand this, but you also have to realize that many people don't > understand the fragile china approach (and with justification - how > *would* one generally know?) and it's a real setback to have your UFS > filesystems blown away too. :-) > > I'd welcome some compromise solutions, otherwise I think it's simply > too dangerous to advertise, explicitly or implicitly, as a feature. I don't use it, so it's no skin off my back, but from what I see on -questions, a lot of people there do. I'd suggest one of: - do nothing. - remove it and announce the fact on -announce. - make it read-only (will this help?) - announce the dangers on -announce, and leave it to the user to decide. I haven't heard of too many problems in the use of dosfs, in fact. I'd guess that people don't exactly treat it like fragile china, but since they tend to come from the DOS world, they don't run more than one process on it at a time anyway. Comments? Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 00:49:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28028 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28018 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA11664; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:49:29 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Hancock cc: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Subject: Re: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1662 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:43:40 +0900." Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:49:29 -0800 Message-ID: <11661.848998169@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Where is our filter meister? I already removed this user from the hacker's digest yesterday. It will probably take awhile longer for the bounces to die out. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 00:50:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28204 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28155 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from proff@localhost) by suburbia.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) id IAA03769 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:49:56 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:49:56 GMT From: Julian Assange Message-Id: <199611260849.IAA03769@suburbia.net> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: IMPORTANT: pointy-head alert! Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dear reader, I feel like the under-grad who opens his locker to find a note: "I have studied you from afar all this time..." only a little different. A few pointy-heads up in Canberra have been considering your moderator's continued existence. Consequentially I've been called on to justify labour and resources spent on all projects under my control, particularly those that can't easily be quantified such as IQ, BOS, LACC, IS, LEAKS and the various bits of security and other software you may have seen floating around the net with my name on it over the past few years. If you or your organisation have found one of these projects/services interesting, useful, or entertaining in some manner and would like to see them, and my management of them continue -and- have the courage, foresight, wit, intelligence and good-looks ;) needed to tell projects@suburbia.net this fact ASAP, I'd be pleased as punch. Cheers, Julian -- Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff@suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 01:03:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA00386 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA00373 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA11787; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:03:51 -0800 (PST) To: Julian Assange cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: pointy-head alert! In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:49:56 GMT." <199611260849.IAA03769@suburbia.net> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:03:51 -0800 Message-ID: <11785.848999031@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I feel like the under-grad who opens his locker to find a note: > "I have studied you from afar all this time..." only a little > different. Yeah, I used to get those all the time.. "I have studied you from afar all this time, and now have you in the cross-hairs of my .270 Winchester. Say your prayers, dirtbag!" Hey, it was a tough school. I've never even *heard* of any of your projects, but good luck nonetheless! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 01:05:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA00615 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA00607 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA11815; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:05:25 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Hackers) Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:39:45 +0100." <199611260839.JAA00507@freebie.lemis.de> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:05:25 -0800 Message-ID: <11813.848999125@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > - remove it and announce the fact on -announce. That won't last more than a week - people don't search the archives and memories are short. > - make it read-only (will this help?) It already is read-only by default if you mount it from the label editor. People change it back the minute they want to write on it. :-) I'm not sure what to do. Putting it into the release notes under a "STILL BROKEN" section seems also excessive.. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 01:26:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA03026 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA03013 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sol1.gud.siemens.co.at (root@[10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA15438 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:25:20 +0100 (MET) Received: from ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at by sol1.gud.siemens.co.at with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7 for ) id m0vSJle-00023JC; Tue, 26 Nov 96 10:25 MET Received: by ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at (1.37.109.16/1.37) id AA137920219; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:23:39 +0100 From: "Hr.Ladavac" Message-Id: <199611260923.AA137920219@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at> Subject: Re: looking for an idea To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:23:39 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611251840.SAA21376@right.PCS> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Nov 25, 96 12:40:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk E-mail message from Jonathan Lemon contained: > > semaphore -- Gaaahhh!!). Previously, I also experimented with > > sending a file descriptor over the AF_UNIX socket from the client > > to the server using sendmsg()/revcmsg(), but this doesn't provide > > any useful (i.e. trustworthy) information either. I thought about > > Hm. I think this is probably the right track. What you want is some way > for the process on the other end of the pipe to prove it's identity to the > server. > > How about having the client create a file of mode 000, and then pass that > open file descriptor back to the server? Since it's mode 000, only the > owner of the file could have opened it (or chowned it to 000). The file can > either be created randomly by the client, or specified by the server. Won't work on SysV. Anyone can chown(2) his own files to anyone else. The funny thing about it is that they claim they support quotas :) But if you restrict yourself to .*BSD, it might work. /Marino > > The server can then use the fstat() call on the passed file descriptor to > verify that the mode is 000, and that the file was indeed opened by the > remote process. It also gets the uid from the fstat() call. > -- > Jonathan > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 02:25:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA13627 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (196-7-192-171.iafrica.com [196.7.192.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA13568 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA02096; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:19:45 +0200 (SAT) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199611261019.MAA02096@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <10650.848988523@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 25, 96 10:08:43 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:19:44 +0200 (SAT) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, nate@mt.sri.com, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Hmm; how is Robert N. actually going with his reimplementation? Around > > March or so he was saying he needed prompting to get it done 8) 8) > > When I asked him, he said that work had taken over his life and he was > now simply a hollow shell of his former self. :-) [perhaps I'm > paraphrasing somewhat, but that was the essence of his message] > > I'm not expecting to see anything substantial done to msdosfs for at > least another 6-12 months, if in fact ever. I have a five-week break coming up in mid-December. The code is pretty much all done now, anyway, so I'll aim to surpise you. :-) -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 02:48:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA19860 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA19854; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:48:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:48:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199611261048.CAA19854@freefall.freebsd.org> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: 2.2-ALPHA install failure Cc: hackers Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It still bugs me that newfs (or better: UFS) is often wasting so many > sectors at the end of a partition since it also still believes that > disks have something like a uniform geometry that can be expressed in > terms of cylinders, heads, and sectors... I wrote an ad-hoc brute-force program to determine the optimal -u paramter between 2048 and 4096 which will minimize the number of wasted cylinders. I suggest we add the few lines to do this to newfs. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 02:52:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA20079 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (196-7-192-147.iafrica.com [196.7.192.147]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20067 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id MAA02308; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:49:03 +0200 (SAT) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199611261049.MAA02308@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <11813.848999125@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 26, 96 01:05:25 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:49:02 +0200 (SAT) Cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > - remove it and announce the fact on -announce. > > That won't last more than a week - people don't search the archives > and memories are short. > > > - make it read-only (will this help?) > > It already is read-only by default if you mount it from the label > editor. People change it back the minute they want to write on > it. :-) > > I'm not sure what to do. Putting it into the release notes under a > "STILL BROKEN" section seems also excessive.. :) FWIW, the table below represents a couple of months of collecting data from users on -questions, who reported that the msdosfs had seriously corrupted a UFS partition. DRIVE DOS START DOS END cyl head sect || cyl head sect cyl head sect size ------------------------------------------------------------------- wd0 | 525 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 126 | 63 | 63 | 512001 wd0 | 2099 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 189 | 63 | 63 | 766017 same drive || 250 | 0 | 1 | 523 | 63 | 63 | 1104768 wd0 | 788 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 787 | 63 | 63 | 3177153 wd0 | 621 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 619 | 63 | 63 | 2499777 wd0 | 525 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 523 | 63 | 63 | 2112705 *All* problems occurred with the DOS FS on a 64/63 IDE drive. FIPS was not necessarily used. In one case, the corrupted UFS fs was actually on another drive. Unless someone is aware of the problem being more general, it may be worth patching the msdosfs code to (by default) refuse to access DOS FSes with > 16 sectors per cluster on such drives. Or at least warn that 64/63 IDE setups are particularly vulnerable. -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 02:53:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA20123 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from coconut.blueberry.co.uk ([194.70.52.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20117 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by coconut.blueberry.co.uk (8.8.3/8.8.3) id KAA28833; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:52:27 GMT Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:52:27 +0000 From: nik@blueberry.co.uk (Nik Clayton) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail References: <8666.848973403@time.cdrom.com> <199611260319.VAA16166@brasil.moneng.mei.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.51 Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: Blueberry New Media In-Reply-To: <199611260319.VAA16166@brasil.moneng.mei.com>; from Joe Greco on Nov 25, 1996 21:19:04 -0600 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joe Greco writes: > Advantages: > > 1) Enhanced security through reduction of unnecessary setuid programs > on a particular machine. [...] x) Makes it very ease for those that want Perl/Tcl/foo in the 'base'[1] system to have it, without bloating the system for those of us that don't. N [1] Where 'base' is some notional component installed for novices, that may, in fact, consist of more than one of the existing distributions. -- --+=[ Blueberry Hill Blueberry New Media ]=+-- --+=[ http://www.blueberry.co.uk/ 1/9 Chelsea Harbour Design Centre, ]=+-- --+=[ WebMaster@blueberry.co.uk London, England, SW10 0XE ]=+-- --+=[ Ten-Thousand-Dimensional Web in Heaven and Net on Earth ]ENTP From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 03:31:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA27182 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 03:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (brosenga.st.pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA27177 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 03:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA01069; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 03:31:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 03:31:39 -0800 (PST) From: Snob Art Genre To: Robert Nordier cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <199611261049.MAA02308@eac.iafrica.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Robert Nordier wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > - remove it and announce the fact on -announce. > > > > That won't last more than a week - people don't search the archives > > and memories are short. > > > > > - make it read-only (will this help?) > > > > It already is read-only by default if you mount it from the label > > editor. People change it back the minute they want to write on > > it. :-) > > > > I'm not sure what to do. Putting it into the release notes under a > > "STILL BROKEN" section seems also excessive.. :) > > FWIW, the table below represents a couple of months of collecting > data from users on -questions, who reported that the msdosfs had > seriously corrupted a UFS partition. > > DRIVE DOS START DOS END > cyl head sect || cyl head sect cyl head sect size > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > wd0 | 525 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 126 | 63 | 63 | 512001 > wd0 | 2099 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 189 | 63 | 63 | 766017 > same drive || 250 | 0 | 1 | 523 | 63 | 63 | 1104768 > wd0 | 788 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 787 | 63 | 63 | 3177153 > wd0 | 621 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 619 | 63 | 63 | 2499777 > wd0 | 525 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 523 | 63 | 63 | 2112705 > > *All* problems occurred with the DOS FS on a 64/63 IDE drive. FIPS > was not necessarily used. In one case, the corrupted UFS fs was > actually on another drive. > > Unless someone is aware of the problem being more general, it may > be worth patching the msdosfs code to (by default) refuse to access > DOS FSes with > 16 sectors per cluster on such drives. > > Or at least warn that 64/63 IDE setups are particularly vulnerable. > > -- > Robert Nordier > My drive was/is SCSI. Ben From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 04:11:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA29651 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA29552 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.3/8.6.9) id XAA06641; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:05:10 +1100 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:05:10 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199611261205.XAA06641@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com, rnordier@iafrica.com Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. Cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >FWIW, the table below represents a couple of months of collecting >data from users on -questions, who reported that the msdosfs had >seriously corrupted a UFS partition. > > DRIVE DOS START DOS END > cyl head sect || cyl head sect cyl head sect size >------------------------------------------------------------------- >wd0 | 525 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 126 | 63 | 63 | 512001 >wd0 | 2099 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 189 | 63 | 63 | 766017 > same drive || 250 | 0 | 1 | 523 | 63 | 63 | 1104768 >wd0 | 788 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 787 | 63 | 63 | 3177153 >wd0 | 621 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 619 | 63 | 63 | 2499777 >wd0 | 525 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 523 | 63 | 63 | 2112705 > >*All* problems occurred with the DOS FS on a 64/63 IDE drive. FIPS >was not necessarily used. In one case, the corrupted UFS fs was >actually on another drive. That can't be the problem, since FreeBSD ignores the geometry in both the driver and in msdosfs. >Unless someone is aware of the problem being more general, it may MAXBSIZE = 16384. I'm not sure exactly what using larger blocks breaks, if anything (blocks up to MAXPHYS=64K are sometimes used and work OK), but ufs is careful to reject file systems with a larger block size. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 04:19:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA00284 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (196-7-192-126.iafrica.com [196.7.192.126]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA00270 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA02818; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:14:53 +0200 (SAT) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199611261214.OAA02818@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: from Snob Art Genre at "Nov 26, 96 03:31:39 am" To: ben@narcissus.ml.org (Snob Art Genre) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:14:50 +0200 (SAT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Snob Art Genre wrote: > On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Robert Nordier wrote: [ ... ] > > *All* problems occurred with the DOS FS on a 64/63 IDE drive. FIPS > > was not necessarily used. In one case, the corrupted UFS fs was > > actually on another drive. > > > > Unless someone is aware of the problem being more general, it may > > be worth patching the msdosfs code to (by default) refuse to access > > DOS FSes with > 16 sectors per cluster on such drives. > > > > Or at least warn that 64/63 IDE setups are particularly vulnerable. > > My drive was/is SCSI. Too bad: this seemed like yet another reason for avoiding IDE. Anyone ever encountered corruption accessing a DOS partition with <= 16 sectors per cluster? -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 04:28:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA00856 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA00848; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.3/8.6.9) id XAA07251; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:24:26 +1100 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:24:26 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199611261224.XAA07251@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: 2.2-ALPHA install failure Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It still bugs me that newfs (or better: UFS) is often wasting so many > > sectors at the end of a partition since it also still believes that > > disks have something like a uniform geometry that can be expressed in > > terms of cylinders, heads, and sectors... It doesn't waste many. It uses all the sectors but allocates too many inodes in the last cylinder group. The allocation is bizarrely wrong for 2880-sector floppies with the default newfs geometry of 1/1/4096. This is fixed in 4.4BSD/Lite2. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 04:49:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA02118 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:49:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA02112 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from eac.iafrica.com (196-7-192-70.iafrica.com [196.7.192.70]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id EAA11997 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by eac.iafrica.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA02954; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:42:10 +0200 (SAT) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199611261242.OAA02954@eac.iafrica.com> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <199611261205.XAA06641@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Bruce Evans at "Nov 26, 96 11:05:10 pm" To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:42:07 +0200 (SAT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, rnordier@iafrica.com, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Evans wrote: > >FWIW, the table below represents a couple of months of collecting > >data from users on -questions, who reported that the msdosfs had > >seriously corrupted a UFS partition. > > > > DRIVE DOS START DOS END > > cyl head sect || cyl head sect cyl head sect size > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >wd0 | 525 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 126 | 63 | 63 | 512001 > >wd0 | 2099 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 189 | 63 | 63 | 766017 > > same drive || 250 | 0 | 1 | 523 | 63 | 63 | 1104768 > >wd0 | 788 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 787 | 63 | 63 | 3177153 > >wd0 | 621 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 619 | 63 | 63 | 2499777 > >wd0 | 525 | 64 | 63 || 0 | 1 | 1 | 523 | 63 | 63 | 2112705 > > > >*All* problems occurred with the DOS FS on a 64/63 IDE drive. FIPS > >was not necessarily used. In one case, the corrupted UFS fs was > >actually on another drive. > > That can't be the problem, since FreeBSD ignores the geometry in both > the driver and in msdosfs. OK: just a tempting assumption based on the available data, plus the fact that I found the problem impossible to reproduce on several large heads=16, sectors/track=63 IDE drives (even for 64-sector block sizes: the maximum DOS supports). > > >Unless someone is aware of the problem being more general, it may > > MAXBSIZE = 16384. I'm not sure exactly what using larger blocks breaks, > if anything (blocks up to MAXPHYS=64K are sometimes used and work OK), > but ufs is careful to reject file systems with a larger block size. There was one (though unconfirmed) reported case of corruption involving a DOS FS with a 32-sector block size, so I suggested 8192. Either way, it might be a good thing for the current msdosfs to reject larger block sizes as well by default, possibly overrideable by a mount_msdos option or a kernel config statement. -- Robert Nordier From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 04:55:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA02333 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de [134.147.6.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA02323 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roberte@localhost) by ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA23012; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:53:12 +0100 (MET) From: Robert Eckardt Message-Id: <199611261253.NAA23012@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <8484.848970215@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "25. Nov. 96 17:01:27" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:53:11 +0100 (MET) Cc: ben@narcissus.ml.org, kjk1@ukc.ac.uk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Msdosfs is seriously broken. It has twice damaged my filesystem to the > > extent that I had to reinstall FreeBSD. Don't use it. > > > > There is no documentation of the fact that it's that screwed up, which is > > something that whoever's responsible for documenting these things might > > want to look into. > > We should probably just remove it entirely for now. I have some > stand-alone dosfs reading code which Robert Nordier gave me and I > intend to use for sysinstall, so that's that case covered. Otherwise, > as you've already found out, you take your life in your hands with > msdosfs. > > Any strong votes to the contrary? I don't think there's anything > about the current msdosfs we want to keep anyway. Yes. (Are we talking about the same MSDOSFS ? :-) I use it quite often for copying things between FreeBSD (2.1.5-R BTW.) and DOS (6.22 + Win3.1) and haven't had any problems with it. I also run Wine on progs on the DOS partitions (in fact only D-Info, german phone-book on CD) AND copy files at the same time AND do a find (/etc/daily) on the DOS-FS. Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/wd0s1 32648 21298 11350 65% /c /dev/sd0s1 513776 237032 276744 46% /d /dev/sd1s2 811024 439936 371088 54% /e I wouldn't like to see it disappear. I could live with MSDOSFS being disabled by default. May be it's worth investigating under which conditions it fails. However, I don't dare to run Win59 and/or WinNT on my machine. (May be, when Santa Claus brings me my PPro board. :-) Robert -- Robert Eckardt \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm) RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\ What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm) http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 05:38:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA03592 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:38:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA03587 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from spyder.inna.net (jamie@spyder.inna.net [206.151.66.4]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07047; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:42:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:44:19 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Joerg Wunsch cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <199611260740.IAA09581@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, J Wunsch wrote: > As Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > > Any strong votes to the contrary? I don't think there's anything > > > about the current msdosfs we want to keep anyway. > > > > It works great for reading 3 1/2" floppies. This is fairly important... > > It's at least basically usable (though fragile) for non-FIPS'ed DOS > slices, too. I use it on dos partitions of less than the 1024 cyl. size all the time with no problem I keep a 500M dos 6.22 partition around at all times just because it's the only fs all the different os's I have can all talk to. Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 05:43:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA03711 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:43:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA03705 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA21535; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:42:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:42:09 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Kjell E Grotland , Michael Smith , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: xxxbsd on powerpc In-Reply-To: <8816.848975110@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There's a netbsd port, this may be what you were thinking of. ron Ron Minnich |"Failure is not an option" -- Gene Kranz rminnich@sarnoff.com | -- except, of course, on Microsoft products (609)-734-3120 | ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 05:44:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA03793 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA03788 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA21543; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:43:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:43:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: "Lenzi, Sergio" cc: Darren Davis , hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Inferno for FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk keep in mind that they're trying to sell inferno for money. I pulled it down to try it out. It has a comment in it about a 6-month time-bomb. No sources. Very pricy if you want to actually use it. It would not run anyway -- always panic'ed. BZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTT! I deleted it. ron Ron Minnich |"Failure is not an option" -- Gene Kranz rminnich@sarnoff.com | -- except, of course, on Microsoft products (609)-734-3120 | ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 05:51:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA03967 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA03962 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.3/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id NAA02703; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:50:38 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:50:38 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "Hr.Ladavac" cc: Jonathan Lemon , wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: looking for an idea In-Reply-To: <199611260923.AA137920219@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Hr.Ladavac wrote: > Won't work on SysV. Anyone can chown(2) his own files to anyone else. > The funny thing about it is that they claim they support quotas :) > Modern SysV uses BSD semantics. I think XOpen requires it. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 05:52:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA04040 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexgen.HiWAAY.net (max3-154.HiWAAY.net [206.104.23.154]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA04021 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by nexgen.HiWAAY.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id HAA28708; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:50:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.5-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611260323.VAA16194@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:42:17 -0600 (CST) Organization: Amateur Radio N4HHE, Madison, AL. From: David Kelly To: Joe Greco Subject: Re: Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb d Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 03:23:43 Joe Greco wrote: >>> Building the internal SCSI cable isn't going to be too hard but the >> power routing looks like it could be a disaster if I try to do it >> the easy way and buy bunches of 1-in-2-out power splitters. Have >> seen insulation-displacement style floppy/hard drive power >> connectors on some systems lately but haven't found a source. It >> would be pretty easy to run a power bus with those power connectors >> pressed on at each hard drive, much like the 50 pin connector on >> ribbon cable for SCSI. >> >> Anybody know of a source of these power connectors? > >I think DigiKey. Looked. Haven't called. Also checked the Mouser catalog. Would you believe neither lists *any* standard HD/Floppy power connectors? >But you do NOT want to do this, I think! > >I strongly suspect that you will find that the voltage at the end >of your "power bus" will be sufficiently less than the power you are >feeding into it... you would be better off getting a bunch of old >power supply leads, connecting them all to a 4 pole barrier strip, >and feeding them that way. > >I am sure someone will tell me I am wrong ;-) Actually I'm more concerned about the power supply driving 5 or 6 hard drives. This is probably near the design limit of what should be a 60W power supply. Three of my drives are labeled "8 watts". Say each pulls 1.5A on the 5V line, the voltage drop on 18" of 18ga at 7.5A or 9.0A isn't going to be much. OTOH thats getting to be a bunch of current. Not sure if these drives support "spinup on demand" or not. Am fairly sure the PS won't tolerate all drives trying to spin up at once. :-) Also keep in mind this isn't a serious task. These parts are laying around and I'm going to see what I can do with them. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 05:56:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA04174 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:56:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (root@AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA04169 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:56:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0vSNyx-0021WFC; Tue, 26 Nov 96 08:55 EST Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id HAA13543; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:48:58 -0600 From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <199611261348.HAA13543@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:48:58 -0600 (CST) Cc: bmk@fta.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <10627.848988232@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 25, 96 10:03:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That's why I suggest doing this more incrementally by service type. But this hasn't got anything to do with services. It has to do with security. How about: security -enable/disable class-of-resources From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 06:23:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA05216 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from starfire.mn.org (root@starfire.skypoint.net [199.86.32.187]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA05210 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:23:06 -0800 (PST) From: john@starfire.mn.org Received: (from john@localhost) by starfire.mn.org (8.7.5/1.1) id IAA02686 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:23:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199611261423.IAA02686@starfire.mn.org> Subject: Inappropriate/inconsistent EEXIST from ioctl(sockfd, SIOCAIFADDR,...) To: hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:23:01 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The problem I am having is that when I use the "ipdefault" (that is, not noipdefault) for PPP connections coming to me, everything works as expected for awhile, with the local end of the PPP connections using the IP address of my primary, permanent network adapter. Then, for reasons I have not been able to nail down, after several cycles of connecting and disconnecting (sometimes as few as two, sometimes several) PPPD will start getting EEXIST from the ioctl call mentioned above. I have tracked this call back through the code in sys/netinet/in.c and into rtrequest in sys/net/route.c at which point I found I was in "over my head". I can read the basic functionality of the code, but I don't have the big picture of what is being (or supposed to be) done here. I have been putting print statements in to trace the operation of things, but I really feel I need a little mentoring, coaching, or guidance to move forward. I am quite willing to do the work on sorting this out, if I could get a few hints. I have been working with ppp-2.3b3. My system is largely 2.1-R, but I have gotten some significant networking components from 2.1.5-R, and sifting through the commit logs (perhaps poorly) I haven't seen a lot of recent activity in the affected areas. I have contacted Paul Mackerras, and he says he has had no other reports of this behavior, but would be happy to know if the deficiency lies in the ppp code in any way. John Lind, Starfire Consulting Services E-mail: john@starfire.MN.ORG USnail: PO Box 17247, Mpls MN 55417 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 07:17:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA07564 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:17:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from irbs.irbs.com (jc@irbs.irbs.com [199.182.75.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA07557 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jc@localhost) by irbs.irbs.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) id KAA13097; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:15:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:15:29 -0500 From: jc@irbs.com (John Capo) To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 References: <199611242323.RAA06615@bonkers.taronga.com> <199611251943.MAA23037@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.51 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Organization: IRBS Engineering, (954) 792-9551 In-Reply-To: <199611251943.MAA23037@phaeton.artisoft.com>; from Terry Lambert on Nov 25, 1996 12:43:48 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoting Terry Lambert (terry@lambert.org): > [ ... qmail vs. sendmail ... ] > > > You ever tried to explain to someone how to set up a virtual domain > > in sendmail? > > I know how to set up a virtual domain in sendmail. How do you do it > in qmail? > Add the domain to ~qmaild/controls/virtualdomains, "virtual.com:user". Create ~user/.qmail-user that contains a delivery recipe. Kill qmail-send and wait for any existing outgoing SMTP sessions to timeout or complete, may take a while. Start qmail-send. I didn't find a way to map an entire domain to another domain. The virtual domain mechanism requires .qmail-something files in the users home directories. Mail addressed to user@virtual.com is translated to user-virtual@RealDomain.com. Qmail looks for ~user/.qmail-virtual and uses that as a startup file. The .qmail-virtual file contains a delivery recipe of some sort. The .qmail-* scheme is powerfull. Users can run mailing lists with no assistance from the system administrator. Mail to user-biglist is delivered based on the contents of ~user/.qmail-biglist. :-( I set up qmail a few weeks ago and ran it for a day. I had it running in an hour. All of the above is from memory. I am not a qmail expert. John Capo From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 08:10:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA10270 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:10:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from news.cioe.com (news.cioe.com [204.120.165.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA10241; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from steve@localhost) by news.cioe.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id LAA13111; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:11:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:11:52 -0500 (EST) From: Steve Ames Message-Id: <199611261611.LAA13111@news.cioe.com> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: setuid under perl5? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a couple of scripts written in perl5 that need to edit some files that are owned by root. I had intended to just setuid the script and go with it, but no go. I'm using Freebsd 2.1.5 and perl5 compiled straight out of /usr/ports/lang/perl5 (ports-current). The same script under perl4 works fine. *sigh* I just want to be able to use some perl5 constructs in my script. Any suggestions for correction and/or work around will be appreciated. -Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 08:23:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA10851 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:23:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA10845 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:23:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA09155; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:22:19 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199611261622.LAA09155@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: looking for an idea To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:22:17 -0500 (EST) Cc: jlemon@americantv.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Nov 26, 96 10:50:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Michael Hancock had to walk into mine and say: > On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Hr.Ladavac wrote: > > > Won't work on SysV. Anyone can chown(2) his own files to anyone else. > > The funny thing about it is that they claim they support quotas :) > > Oooo... I forgot about the SysV chown(2) behavior for a minute there. But I'm only looking to solve this problem on BSD for now. I've refined the message queue idea a little, and it seems to work well. Basically, the caller needs to set up a message queue with a key that it chooses. (For now, I'm using the RPC XID for the transaction as the key, though the caller can pick any number.) The caller also specifies AUTH_UNIX authentication. Normally, AUTH_UNIX authentication uses a empty verifier; what I do is use the key for the message queue as the verifier instead. This verifier is sent to the server as part of the RPC process along with the usual AUTH_UNIX credentials. Before it does the actual RPC, the client sends a message through the queue containing its PID. Normally, _svcauth_unix() discards the verifier since it expects it to be null, but it's easy to tweak it so that it copies it to the right place in the transport handle. The server can then get the message queue key and read the message sent by the client. The server then does an IPC_STAT on the message queue and checks that: o the creator UID and owner UID are the same (and match the UID specified in the AUTH_UNIX credentials) o the mode of the message queue is 0600 o msg_lspid (the last PID to do a msgsnd()) is the same as the PID sent in the message If all these things are true, the server assumes that the creator UID of the message queue is the real UID of the caller. It saves this UID, then destroys the queue. I could probably whip up something similar using the file descriptor passing idea, but this would involve creating a file and then having the server remove it. This could be messy if NFS is involved, and although I can't prove it, I think it would be a little slower than using message queues (I say this mainly because the filesystem support is more complex than the message queue support). > Modern SysV uses BSD semantics. I think XOpen requires it. Somebody should tell SGI then. IRIX defaults to the 'anybody can chown()' behavior, unless you explicitly turn it off either with systune or by editing one of the kernel config files and rebuilding the kernel. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "If you're ever in trouble, go to the CTR. Ask for Bill. He will help you." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 08:45:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12290 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12279 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:45:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com ([204.244.213.33]) by misery.sdf.com with SMTP id <1344-9453>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:46:00 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:45:51 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Samplonius To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mylex Raid Adapter In-Reply-To: <199611260633.EAA18442@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > Hi, > > Is there any chance for FreeBSD to recognize and use a Mylex SCSI > Raid Adapter ? If not, are there any plans for it ? > > I don't know which model it is. I just know it has a i960 processor, > and is sold by IBM inside it's PC Server 320. > > Jonny Mylex makes two different types of RAID devices. I believe only the SCSI-SCSI controllers are supported right now (at least I hope so, since I'm looking at purchasing one of these). The PCI-SCSI controller would require a device driver, which has not been written yet. > -- > Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br > +55 21 290-4698 ( Job ) jonny@cisi.coppe.ufrj.br > Network Manager UFRJ/COPPE/CISI > Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro > Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 08:47:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12442 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:47:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12430 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA17097; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:42:56 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611261642.KAA17097@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:42:56 -0600 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, bmk@fta.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611261348.HAA13543@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Peter da Silva" at Nov 26, 96 07:48:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > That's why I suggest doing this more incrementally by service type. > > But this hasn't got anything to do with services. It has to do with > security. How about: > > security -enable/disable class-of-resources You guys both have good points but you are thinking too small :-) The security aspects are certainly a benefit. In the handbook, it can be made known that is a good idea to do -disable ppp -disable pppd -disable slip -disable sendmail -disable lpr -disable uucp if those services are not used on a box, which effectively should eliminate them as a major potential security hole. Peter, I think we agree on this. :-) The benefits of a mechanism to select a particular MTA, etc., are also excellent, as Jordan noted. Consider these as "layers" on top of a more generalized "subsystem control mechanism" that doesn't necessarily know or care about any other subsystem. At the lowest level, you have what I have been talking about: a "package" (read: subsystem) control mechanism. This need not have too much knowledge about anything other than the subsystem it is managing. For example, the "Sendmail" subsystem consists of sendmail mailstats mailq smrsh mail.local sendmail.cf sendmail.hf sendmail.st /var/spool/mqueue maybe a few other files Such a mechanism needs to be able to do four things, in my opinion: 1) Install the package. (Perhaps difficult, let's hold this off as a future improvement for the time being) 2) Enable the package. Make sure permissions are correct. Perhaps modify /etc/sysconfig appropriately. 3) Disable the package. Make sure permissions are removed. Perhaps modify /etc/sysconfig appropriately. 4) Uninstall the package. Remove the files and modify /etc/sysconfig. This may seem trivial, but it may or may not be. In my opinion, making this an independent module that can properly do this for a particular subsystem would make a higher level management tool such as Jordan's mta_select MUCH easier to build. The mta_select function would simply have to know which MTA's are installed, which one is active, and offer an appropriate list, or offer to install a currently uninstalled MTA. A "security" command could simply act as a nice menued front end to enable or disable subsystems with setuid executables, and maybe other "questionable" things. Both of these become trivialized because there is an underlying foundation to support the generalized functionality of controlling availability of a subsystem. See where I am going with this? "subsystem_control" (arbitrary name) itself might be a shell script no more complex than this: % cat subsystem_control #! /bin/sh - PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/etc; export PATH if [ "$#" != "2" ]; then echo "usage: subsystem_control " 1>&2 exit 1 fi if [ -d "/usr/share/misc/subsystem_control/${2}" ]; then # Check for default system components such as Sendmail, LPR, etc. dir="/usr/share/misc/subsystem_control/${2}" elif [ -d "/usr/local/share/misc/subsystem_control/${2}" ]; then # Check for added system components such as Qmail, etc. dir="/usr/local/share/misc/subsystem_control/${2}" else echo "subsystem_control: ${2}: subsystem unknown" 1>&2 exit 1 fi if [ ! -f "${dir}/${1}" ]; then echo "subsystem_control: ${1}: function unknown for subsystem ${2}" 1>&2 exit 1 fi exec "${dir}/${1}" % cat /usr/share/misc/subsystem_control/sendmail/enable #! /bin/sh - PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/etc; export PATH cd /usr/sbin mtree -e -U << EOF /set type=file uid=3 gid=7 mode=0555 nlink=1 . type=dir mode=0755 nlink=2 sendmail uid=0 mode=04555 nlink=3 size=245760 {etc etc etc} .. EOF # Somehow enable sendmail within sysconfig # Maybe start a Sendmail daemon? exit 0 % Now, assuming that the maintainer of the Qmail port is willing to devise a set of {enable,disable} scripts for Qmail, and someone is willing to devise a set of {enable,disable} scripts for Sendmail, there is now a solid foundation for availability control, yes? (And some of us would be more than willing to devise the enable/disable scripts for things like UUCP, LPR, etc. I volunteer to take a whack at any "base" subsystem (including Sendmail, UUCP, LPR, PPPD, PPP, SLIP, R-commands) that uses setuid, as they are ALL security holes.) In my mind, this is a very simple yet UNIXy way of doing this sort of task. Abstract and separate the functionality into generalized operations. Then make building blocks which are more generally useful. It has to do with security, services, sanity, and all that. Just another looney tunes idea, but hey, I am now on my home field... ;-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 08:49:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12673 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:49:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mandor.dev.com (mandor.dev.com [198.145.93.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12668 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mandor.dev.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mandor.dev.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA06314; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:43:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611261643.IAA06314@mandor.dev.com> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:43:32 PST From: Brian Smith Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: >I understand this, but you also have to realize that many people don't >understand the fragile china approach (and with justification - how >*would* one generally know?) and it's a real setback to have your UFS >filesystems blown away too. :-) Agreed! But, it really is a useful feature, even if you have to walk on eggshells. We have drives that are dangerously dedicated, now we can have partitions that are dangerously mounted. :-) >I'd welcome some compromise solutions, otherwise I think it's simply >too dangerous to advertise, explicitly or implicitly, as a feature. What I really would like (if possible) is a means where the FS is kept in the distribution, but made difficult to use for newbies. Kind of like LFS and union FS, where you specifically have to make a new kernel. Label it experimental, and maybe put kernel printf's in the mount routine that say "Reboot! Reboot! Abandon all hope, ye who mount this FS." ;) Removing it from the GENERIC kernel, not distributing the LKM, and perhaps some dire warnings in the LINT configuration might do the trick. Brian brians@mandor.dev.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 09:11:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13757 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:11:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA13746 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA17146; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:09:59 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611261709.LAA17146@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: nik@blueberry.co.uk (Nik Clayton) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:09:59 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Nik Clayton" at Nov 26, 96 10:52:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Joe Greco writes: > > Advantages: > > > > 1) Enhanced security through reduction of unnecessary setuid programs > > on a particular machine. > [...] > > x) Makes it very ease for those that want Perl/Tcl/foo in the 'base'[1] > system to have it, without bloating the system for those of us that > don't. > > N > > [1] Where 'base' is some notional component installed for novices, that > may, in fact, consist of more than one of the existing distributions. Actually, as a first pass, I would settle for having it by default and having a "paring knife" tool to remove it in places where I do not want it. I would like to see this eventually become a movement towards compartmentalization of the FreeBSD base system, just like SunOS/etc do. During install: Yes I want the compiler. No I don't want any of this UUCP or mail crud. No I don't want Perl and Tcl. Don't care about whether or not the rest of them are installed. Eventually it may turn out that we find out that various outside vendors "packages" such as Sendmail could be delivered as "pre-installed packages". So to do a Sendmail upgrade, all you do is pkg_rm sendmail cd /usr/ports/mta/sendmail make make install and it upgrades your Sendmail to the latest and greatest, no hassles. This is, of course, a ways off in terms of feasibility. But the ability to _manage_ portions of the base distribution is a very rough first pass at this. The beauty of this is the simplicity of the tool(s) required to provide the functionality described in an earlier message of mine. I am very much in favor of anything that can automate some of the things I do manually, anyways. ;-) And it would make it SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier to pay attention to security issues, with much less effort involved. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 09:14:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA13901 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA13892 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.18]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <16836(1)>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:13:40 PST Received: from gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com [13.231.133.90]) by www.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (8.8.3/8.7.5) with SMTP id MAA18270; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/client-1.3) id AA12903; Tue, 26 Nov 96 12:01:11 EST Message-Id: <9611261701.AA12903@gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> To: Bill Paul Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: descriptors and sockets and pipes, oh my In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:02:10 PST." <199611231802.NAA05597@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:01:11 PST From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199611231802.NAA05597@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>, you write: > >Does anyone have a source code example handy of passing a file >descriptor from one process to anyther via an AF_UNIX socket? >_UNIX Network Programming_ only provides an example for 4.3BSD; in >4.4BSD, the msghdr structure has changed. Also, is it possible to >pass descriptors between totally unrelated processes, or must >they be parent and child? > >Lastly, is it still possible to exchange file descriptors with the >new pipe code in 2.2.x? The example in the book uses pipe(), but >that's because pipes were really AF_UNIX sockets in disguise; this >isn't true in FreeBSD 2.2.x anymore. > >-Bill > >-- This is the copy I had a work...(I think I have a newer one a home). I didn't run it recently...but it shows what to do for 4.3/4.4: /* * * Fork off a subprocessor. * Block SIGUSR1 * Parent continuously: * make a pipe * write a simple message into the pipe (programmable, < 1 pipebuf) * close write side * pass read side with small buffer via sendmsg to child * (rendzvous at /tmp/child.sock. * child receives message, responds with sigusr1 to parent (in global * parent_pid). */ #ifdef __linux__ #define __USE_BSD_SIGNAL #endif #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #include #ifdef __sun__ #include #define PATH_MAX MAXPATHLEN #define atexit(a) on_exit(a, 0); #endif /* for solaris? */ #if defined(__svr4__) #include #endif #include #ifdef BSD44 #ifndef CMSG_DATA #define CMSG_DATA(a) (((void *) a) + sizeof(struct cmsghdr)) #endif #define CMSG_INT (sizeof(struct cmsghdr) + sizeof(int)) #endif /* available to parent and child */ static pid_t parent_pid; static int errors = 0; /* only available in parent */ static pid_t child_pid = 0; /* should be sig_atomic_t */ static int sigusr1_occurred = 0; /* number of times send data */ static int count = 0; /* times failed */ static int failures = 0; static char rendezvous[PATH_MAX]; /* bytes for message and pipe, less * than pipe buf */ static int send_size; static int debug = 0; /* if set, report statitistics */ static int want_to_report = 0; static void sigusr1(void) { sigusr1_occurred++; } static void do_report(void) { want_to_report++; } /* SIGUSR1 is normally blocked -- wait for any signal to occur. * */ static void wait_for_sigusr1(void) { sigset_t zeromask; sigemptyset(&zeromask); while(!sigusr1_occurred) sigsuspend(&zeromask); sigusr1_occurred = 0; } static void message_parent(void) { int status; status = kill(parent_pid, SIGUSR1); if(status < 0) { perror("kill"); exit(1); } } static int make_receive_socket(void) { int fd; struct sockaddr_un sin; int status; fd = socket(AF_UNIX, SOCK_DGRAM, 0); if(fd < 0) { perror("child socket"); exit(1); } sin.sun_family = AF_UNIX; strcpy((char *) &sin.sun_path, rendezvous); status = bind(fd, (struct sockaddr *) &sin, sizeof(struct sockaddr_un)); if(status < 0) { perror("child bind"); exit(1); } return fd; } static void do_receive(const int fd) { #ifdef BSD44 struct cmsghdr *cmptr; cmptr = alloca(CMSG_INT); #endif while(1) { struct msghdr sockmsg; int receive_fd; int size; int bytes_read; struct iovec iovec[1]; char buffer[send_size]; char read_buffer[PIPE_BUF]; iovec[0].iov_base = buffer; iovec[0].iov_len = sizeof(buffer); sockmsg.msg_name = 0; sockmsg.msg_namelen = 0; sockmsg.msg_iov = iovec; sockmsg.msg_iovlen = 1; #ifdef BSD44 sockmsg.msg_control = (caddr_t) cmptr; sockmsg.msg_controllen = CMSG_INT; cmptr->cmsg_type = SCM_RIGHTS; cmptr->cmsg_level = SOL_SOCKET; cmptr->cmsg_len = CMSG_INT; #else receive_fd = -1; sockmsg.msg_accrights = &receive_fd; sockmsg.msg_accrightslen = sizeof(receive_fd); #endif size = recvmsg(fd, &sockmsg, 0); if(size < 0) { perror("recvmsg"); exit(1); } #ifdef BSD44 if(sockmsg.msg_controllen != CMSG_INT) { fprintf(stderr, "controllen wrong, = %d\n", sockmsg.msg_controllen); exit(1); } receive_fd = *(int *) CMSG_DATA(cmptr); #endif if(receive_fd < 0) { fprintf(stderr, "no receive fd"); exit(1); } bytes_read = read(receive_fd, &read_buffer, sizeof(read_buffer)); if(debug) printf("message size = %d, bytes read = %d\n", size, bytes_read); count++; close(receive_fd); message_parent(); if(want_to_report) report_statistics(); } } static int child(void) { int fd; fd = make_receive_socket(); message_parent(); do_receive(fd); } static void kill_child(void) { if(child_pid) kill(child_pid, SIGTERM); printf("Count = %d\n", count); unlink(rendezvous); } static void make_child(void) { int status; status = fork(); switch(status) { case 0: child(); case -1: perror("fork"); exit(1); default: child_pid = status; } printf("Parent = %d, child = %d\n", getpid(), child_pid); } static void block_sig(const int signo) { sigset_t mask; int status; sigemptyset(&mask); sigaddset(&mask, signo); status = sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, &mask, NULL); if(status != 0) { perror("sigprocmask"); exit(1); } } static void make_sock_name(void) { sprintf(rendezvous, "/tmp/socket.%d", getpid()); } static int send_data(const int size) { struct sockaddr_un sin; struct msghdr sockmsg; struct iovec iovec[1]; int fds[2]; int status; char buffer[size]; static int sock_fd = -1; #ifdef BSD44 struct cmsghdr *cmsg; cmsg = alloca(CMSG_INT); #endif if(sock_fd < 0) { sock_fd = socket(AF_UNIX, SOCK_DGRAM, 0); if(sock_fd < 0) { perror("parent socket"); exit(1); } } status = pipe(fds); if(status < 0) { perror("pipe"); exit(1); } iovec[0].iov_base = buffer; iovec[0].iov_len = size; status = write(fds[1], &buffer, size); if(status != size) { perror("write failed"); exit(1); } close(fds[1]); sin.sun_family = AF_UNIX; strcpy((char *) &sin.sun_path, rendezvous); sockmsg.msg_name = (caddr_t) &sin; sockmsg.msg_namelen = sizeof(struct sockaddr_un); sockmsg.msg_iov = &iovec; sockmsg.msg_iovlen = 1; #ifdef BSD44 cmsg->cmsg_level = SOL_SOCKET; cmsg->cmsg_type = SCM_RIGHTS; cmsg->cmsg_len = CMSG_INT; sockmsg.msg_control = (caddr_t) cmsg; sockmsg.msg_controllen = CMSG_INT; *(int *) CMSG_DATA(cmsg) = fds[0]; #else sockmsg.msg_accrightslen = sizeof(fds[0]); sockmsg.msg_accrights = &fds[0]; #endif status = sendmsg(sock_fd, &sockmsg, 0); if(status < 0) { perror("sendmsg"); errors++; } close(fds[0]); if(status) return 0; else return 1; } static void usage(const char *name) { fprintf(stderr, "%s [-o] [-d]\n", name); exit(1); } static double convert_time(struct timeval *p) { double seconds; seconds = p->tv_sec; seconds += ((double) p->tv_usec ) / 1000000.0; return seconds; } static void report_statistics(void) { struct rusage usage; int result; pid_t pid = 0; if(!pid) pid = getpid(); want_to_report = 0; result = getrusage(RUSAGE_SELF, &usage); if(result < 0) { perror("getrusage"); return; } printf("Process: %d count = %d, failures = %d ", pid, count, failures); printf("User time %.3f Sys time %.3f\n", convert_time(&usage.ru_utime), convert_time(&usage.ru_stime)); kill(child_pid, SIGUSR2); } main(int argc, char **argv) { const char *options = "do"; int c; char *progname; int one_shot = 0; send_size = 100; progname = argv[0]; while(1) { c = getopt(argc, argv, "od"); if(c == EOF) break; switch(c) { case 'd': debug = 1; break; case 'o': one_shot = 1; break; default: usage(progname); } } parent_pid = getpid(); block_sig(SIGUSR1); signal(SIGUSR1, sigusr1); #if 0 signal(SIGUSR2, do_report); #endif atexit(kill_child); atexit(report_statistics); make_sock_name(); make_child(); wait_for_sigusr1(); alarm(10); signal(SIGALRM, do_report); while(1) { int result; result = send_data(send_size); if(one_shot) { sleep(1); exit(0); } if(!result) count++; else failures++; if(want_to_report) { report_statistics(); exit(0); } } } From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 09:24:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14319 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from itchy.atlas.com ([206.29.170.232]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14314 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brantk@localhost) by itchy.atlas.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) id JAA15695; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:11:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611261711.JAA15695@itchy.atlas.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:11:18 -0800 (PST) Cc: bmk@fta.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: brantk@atlas.com In-Reply-To: <10627.848988232@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 25, 96 10:03:52 pm" From: "Brant Katkansky" Reply-to: bmk@pobox.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > MTA selection can be handled by doing 'pkg_control -disable sendmail; > > pkg_control -enable qmail'. Of course, for novices, this operation > > would be hidden behind the slick UI that hasn't been written yet. > > Ok, well, the real question I still have here is "what determines > the intelligence behind the enable/disable action?" The intelligence is determined by the script/program which is called by pkg_control. > What I mean by this is that while it's relatively easy to quantify > the enable/disable actions for sendmail/qmail, by calling your > utility "pkg_control" you're intimating that this thing will work > effectively for *all* packages which might be enabled or disabled. That is the intent. > To use a totally contrived example, let's say I wanted to disable all > forms of remote login access except for ssh (as many people do). > I would expect to be able to say: > > pkg_control -enable ssh > pkg_control -disable rlogin,telnet > > [yes, I know that rlogin and telnet aren't packages but ssh is, so > already we're into a real grey area, just as with sendmail]. > > The actions behind making this happen are quite different than the > sendmail/qmail selection actions, and this package-specific > intelligence has to go *somewhere*, right? Sure. With the current model that Joe has suggested, each of these actions would cause a script to be executed. Currently, what would be done is the executable would be made suid/!suid, made mode 000, or removed. Nothing would be done to system configuration files (/etc/sysconfig, for example). That's not to say that it couldn't be done in the future. Our current configuration scheme does not lend itself well to anything but manual configuration. > Or let's say I wanted to install apsfilter as my default printer > filter. I might want to say: > > pkg_control -enable apsfilter > > Which would entail yet another entirely different set of operations. ...which would be controlled entirely by a set of scripts/programs for each package. I've got to admit, this is probably not a perfect way of doing things. I'm open to suggestions. > Short of making pkg_control a humongous beast from hell with inate > knowledge of every possible package you might want to enable or > disable, it seems like a generic package control program is something > of a bitch to do, and by calling it "pkg_control" that's exactly what > you're suggesting it does. > That's why I suggest doing this more incrementally by service type. > In my examples, there would actually be something like 3 different > commands: > > mail_control -enable qmail -disable sendmail > > access_control -incoming -enable ssh -disable rlogin,telnet > > lp_control -enable apsfilter I don't have any real strong objections to doing it this way, but I do think that we're not really thinking along the same lines. > Each command would have a much easier time of it since it only has to > know about a limited set of services. By keeping the argument names > orthogonal (though I think that -enable and -disable are a bit > stretched in some of these examples :-), it's also easier to write a > front end which can feed them all. Joe's model for pkg_control doesn't "know" anything about services, nor does it need to. It knows about "packages" and "actions". Think of it as a front end to external utilities which will perform most of the work. I don't see it as any less maintainable. Using the incremental approach, you _still_ need to define for each package what steps are required to perform a given step. I'm not completely sold on Joe's model, but I am running with it for the time being. The C code for it has been already written (and is actually pretty simple, BTW). I'll be working on the back end scripts for sendmail, and a few other things tonight. I'm not going to invest a ton of time into this until we have something close to a consensus as to how (and if!) it should be done. It just occurred to me that maybe it's the _name_ we're hung up on. If we called it something else, would some of your objections disappear? -- Brant Katkansky (bmk@pobox.com, brantk@atlas.com) Software Engineer, ADC From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 09:27:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14436 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hil-img-4.compuserve.com (hil-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.177.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14430 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:27:19 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by hil-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA18646; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:26:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:06:47 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1661 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611261226_MC1-BCB-620E@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1661 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-20-96 05:37:00 PM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1661 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 09:27:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14450 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:27:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.206.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14444 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:27:22 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA00764; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:26:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:06:47 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1661 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611261226_MC1-BCB-620E@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA28009; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:35:37 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.8.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA07530; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:32:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14031 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611202209.OAA14031@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1661 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Wednesday, 20 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1661 In this issue: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD Re: arpresolve errors Re: Disk Striping Preserving local changes with cvsup Re: Help: ucd-snmpd w/freebsd Re: Integrating sendmail 8.8.3 into a 2.1.6 tree [sci.math.num-analysis,comp.os.msdos.djgpp] Pentium Optimized BLAS (fwd) Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: Help: ucd-snmpd w/freebsd Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: Ipx to ip routing Re: arpresolve errors Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christian Fortin Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:24:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) That's the 3th time that I talk with guy at Corel about WP 7.0. Corel seem to make avalable a version of WordPerfect 7.0 for Linux... Corel have the possibility to build a WP for FreeBSD also... :-) But they want to have an average of how many person will buy it ! WP 7.0 will avalable in the first quarter of 1997 at the price of 495$ US for single user. You add 299$ US for add licences... It include the support for many kind of keyboard language and all the stuf for build graphique... The files are compatible with WP for Windows and DOS. A Java version of Corel Office will be also avalable... ####################################################### # Send an e-mail with your coodinate at: # # wp@ec.camitel.com # # Just say: I want WP 7.0 For freeBSD !!! at 495$ # # Name: # # #tel: # # #Fax: # # Adress: # # ZIP: # ####################################################### If Corel take desision to release a FreeBSD version a person from Corel will contact you in few month... It depend how many personne want it... - ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Christian Fortin Date: 11/20/96 Heure: 13:24:21 ##################################################--------+ Electro-Conception tel:(418) 872-6641 | 3665 Croisset fax:(418) 872-9198 | Quebec,P.Q. www.ec.camitel.com/ec | Canada ftp.ec.camitel.com | G1P-1L4 | /----|<|----WM--|(--J - --------------------------L---WM-----< \----1 --- - ------------------------------ From: Wilko Bulte Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:22:36 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD As Chris Timmons wrote... > > Well the great thing about FreeBSD is that it's FREE... so anybody can put > it on a CD and sell it. > > My preference has always been to buy from Walnut Creek CDROM because they > support the project. I personally subscribe to both the -RELEASE and Exactly my point: looks a bit like 'easy money' for PHT to me. Maybe time to stamp 'the only original FreeBSD cdrom' on WC's one? > -SNAP cd distributions and have had excellent experience dealing with the > Walnut Creek people on the phone. Since we rely heavily on FreeBSD at > work, I spec Walnut Creek as the CD-ROM of choice there as well. Thanks > WC!!! > > -Chris Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Bill Fenner Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:22:52 PST Subject: Re: arpresolve errors In message you wr ite: >> What's the routing table look like for 203.x.y.49? > >203.x.y.48/28 203.x.y.49 UGc >203.x.y.49 203.x.y.34 UH >203.s.t 203.x.y.49 UGc You cut out the most important part. What's the interface for the host route? A ppp interface or an ethernet? Whose IP address is 203.x.y.34? >Yes, there are host routes, but they seem to make >sense (e.g. the one listed above) for the point to point links. I can't tell since I don't know who 203.x.y.34 is. Bill ------------------------------ From: "Marc G. Fournier" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:48:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Disk Striping On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Darrin R. Woods wrote: > I just got my news server up and running INN (thanks to everyone that > helped), but now I'm looking for a better way of dealing with it. I've got > 3 Fast/Wide 4gb disks to hold news. It would be a lot easier (and better > performance) if I could stripe (or span) the /var partition accross the 3 > disks instead of having to guess as to how to partition each drive and into > what sizes. > > The question: Is there a way to stripe a partition across multiple drives > in FreeBSD? If not, does anyone know of a FreeBSD like OS that will do it? > Preferably NOT Linux. > man 'ccd' and 'ccdconfig'...I've used it here, but due to some configuration changes (moved some drives over to an AHA controller), it no longer seems to work...I think its because of the adaptec 1542CF controller though, as I've been using it for the past 3+ months or so with little to no problems on an NCR controller... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org ------------------------------ From: Tom Samplonius Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:13:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preserving local changes with cvsup I used to use "sup -k" to preserve a few local changes I made. What is a safe way to acomplish this with cvsup? Tom ------------------------------ From: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Date: 20 Nov 1996 20:04:35 GMT Subject: Re: Help: ucd-snmpd w/freebsd In article , jc@irbs.com (John Capo) writes: > Quoting Ade Barkah (mbarkah@hemi.com): >> Hello, >> >> I'm getting rather frustrated trying to get an snmpd running for >> FreeBSD 2.1 machines. Please help! =-) Problem: the interface counters >> never seem to get updated once snmpd is running. >> >> Example. (on a pretty busy system network-wise): >> >> $ snmpget -v 1 localhost public interfaces.ifTable.ifEntry.ifInOctets.1 >> interfaces.ifTable.ifEntry.ifInOctets.1 = 558046531 >> >> (five minutes later) >> >> $ snmpget -v 1 localhost public interfaces.ifTable.ifEntry.ifInOctets.1 >> interfaces.ifTable.ifEntry.ifInOctets.1 = 558046531 >> > > The result of the last request is cached by snmpd. I haven't looked > at the code to see if this is a feature or not. Query another > variable then query ifInOctets.1 again and you should see that it > has changed. > > John Capo I ran into this when setting up mrtg, and disabled the "optimisation" in the snmpd code. I was unsure whether to commit the patch to the ports collection, it makes very little difference in cpu resource consumption but certainly makes a lot of strange side effects disappear. - -Peter ------------------------------ From: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Date: 20 Nov 1996 20:08:55 GMT Subject: Re: Integrating sendmail 8.8.3 into a 2.1.6 tree In article , tom@sdf.com (Tom Samplonius) writes: > > I've been trying to integrate sendmail 8.8.3 (taken from current) into a > 2.1.6 tree. This looked very straightforward because the Makefiles and > directory structure was nearly identical. However, when trying a "make > all", make stops with a "don't know how to make > /usr/src/usr.sbin/sendmail/src/sysexits.h". I find this strange. > sysexits.h isn't included with sendmail, and isn't mentioned in the > Makefile, so why does make think it needs to be built? > > Tom Most likely you have a stray .depend file somewhere.. Try doing a 'make cleandir obj depend' first before the build in the sendmail directory. - -Peter ------------------------------ From: Pedro A M Vazquez Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:28:54 +0000 () Subject: [sci.math.num-analysis,comp.os.msdos.djgpp] Pentium Optimized BLAS (fwd) Dave Love said: > From burley@gnu.ai.mit.edu Wed Nov 20 16:58:35 1996 > Sender: fx@dl.ac.uk > To: g77-alpha@gnu.ai.mit.edu > Subject: [sci.math.num-analysis,comp.os.msdos.djgpp] Pentium Optimized BLAS > Organization: Daresbury Laboratory, Warrington WA4 4AD, UK > From: Dave Love > Date: 20 Nov 1996 18:48:54 +0000 > Message-ID: > Lines: 35 > X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.40/Emacs 19.34 > > There have been mutterings about this sort of thing here, I think, so > I'm copying it in case anyone's interested and hasn't seen it. I > haven't looked in detail, but he criticises G77's code generation. > > ------- Start of forwarded message ------- > From: mlkessle@cip.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Manuel Kessler) > Newsgroups: sci.math.num-analysis,comp.os.msdos.djgpp > Subject: Pentium Optimized BLAS > Date: 13 Nov 1996 16:10:20 GMT > Organization: CipPool der Physikalischen Institute, Uni Wuerzburg > Message-ID: <56crtc$re4@winx03.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> > > Hi to all number crunchers, > I'm glad to announce the first test release of my pentium optimized > BLAS level 1 library. The most important functions of the BLAS level 1 > (xAXPY, xCOPY, xDOT, xNRM2, in both single and double precision) > have been completely rewritten in GNU assembler for achieving full > performance on intel pentium processors. The library is available in > both binary and source form for DOS/DJGPP and UNIX/LINUX at > > http://cip.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~mlkessle/blas1.html > > See there for further informations. Suggestions, bug reports, > comments etc. are very welcome, email adress see below. > > Thanks, > Manuel > > -- > Manuel Kessler > Graduate Student at the University of Wuerzburg, Germany, Physics Department > SNAIL: Zeppelinstrasse 5, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany > EMAIL: mlkessle@cip.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de > WWW: http://cip.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~mlkessle > ------- End of forwarded message ------- > ------------------------------ From: Amancio Hasty Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:36:37 -0800 Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) Regards, Amancio >From The Desk Of Christian Fortin : > That's the 3th time that I talk with guy at Corel about WP 7.0. > Corel seem to make avalable a version of WordPerfect 7.0 for Linux... > Corel have the possibility to build a WP for FreeBSD also... :-) > > But they want to have an average of how many person will buy it ! > > WP 7.0 will avalable in the first quarter of 1997 at the price > of 495$ US for single user. You add 299$ US for add licences... > > It include the support for many kind of keyboard language > and all the stuf for build graphique... > The files are compatible with WP for Windows and DOS. > > A Java version of Corel Office will be also avalable... > > > > ####################################################### > # Send an e-mail with your coodinate at: # > # wp@ec.camitel.com # > # Just say: I want WP 7.0 For freeBSD !!! at 495$ # > # Name: # > # #tel: # > # #Fax: # > # Adress: # > # ZIP: # > ####################################################### > > If Corel take desision to release a FreeBSD version > a person from Corel will contact you in few month... > It depend how many personne want it... > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > E-Mail: Christian Fortin > Date: 11/20/96 > Heure: 13:24:21 > ##################################################--------+ > Electro-Conception tel:(418) 872-6641 | > 3665 Croisset fax:(418) 872-9198 | > Quebec,P.Q. www.ec.camitel.com/ec | > Canada ftp.ec.camitel.com | > G1P-1L4 | /----|<|----WM--|(--J > --------------------------L---WM-----< > \----1 > --- > - ------------------------------ From: John Hay Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:52:26 +0200 (SAT) Subject: Re: Help: ucd-snmpd w/freebsd > > > > The result of the last request is cached by snmpd. I haven't looked > > at the code to see if this is a feature or not. Query another > > variable then query ifInOctets.1 again and you should see that it > > has changed. > > > > John Capo > > I ran into this when setting up mrtg, and disabled the "optimisation" in > the snmpd code. I was unsure whether to commit the patch to the ports > collection, it makes very little difference in cpu resource consumption > but certainly makes a lot of strange side effects disappear. > > -Peter > Yes, please put it in. At first my work-around was to configure mrtg to monitor two interfaces om the machine, until I could figure out where in the code the problem was. John - -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za ------------------------------ From: "Brian N. Handy" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:22:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: >Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do >so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) Wow...I'd like it, but $500 is sorta rich for my blood right now? How much for the student version? :-) Sigh. Brian ------------------------------ From: "Marc G. Fournier" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:33:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do > so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) > I *really* hate to put a wrench in the works...but *please* do not send a message to Coral if its only to bolster the numbers. I would really hate for everyone to send in a mail message, get them to release it for FreeBSD, and find 10% actually buy a copy...it would really really set a bad precedent(sp?), which could hurt us long term... :( > Regards, > Amancio > > >From The Desk Of Christian Fortin : > > That's the 3th time that I talk with guy at Corel about WP 7.0. > > Corel seem to make avalable a version of WordPerfect 7.0 for Linux... > > Corel have the possibility to build a WP for FreeBSD also... :-) > > > > But they want to have an average of how many person will buy it ! > > > > WP 7.0 will avalable in the first quarter of 1997 at the price > > of 495$ US for single user. You add 299$ US for add licences... > > > > It include the support for many kind of keyboard language > > and all the stuf for build graphique... > > The files are compatible with WP for Windows and DOS. > > > > A Java version of Corel Office will be also avalable... > > > > > > > > ####################################################### > > # Send an e-mail with your coodinate at: # > > # wp@ec.camitel.com # > > # Just say: I want WP 7.0 For freeBSD !!! at 495$ # > > # Name: # > > # #tel: # > > # #Fax: # > > # Adress: # > > # ZIP: # > > ####################################################### > > > > If Corel take desision to release a FreeBSD version > > a person from Corel will contact you in few month... > > It depend how many personne want it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > E-Mail: Christian Fortin > > Date: 11/20/96 > > Heure: 13:24:21 > > ##################################################--------+ > > Electro-Conception tel:(418) 872-6641 | > > 3665 Croisset fax:(418) 872-9198 | > > Quebec,P.Q. www.ec.camitel.com/ec | > > Canada ftp.ec.camitel.com | > > G1P-1L4 | /----|<|----WM--|(--J > > --------------------------L---WM-----< > > \----1 > > --- > > - > > Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org ------------------------------ From: Brandon Gillespie Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:46:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) > Wow...I'd like it, but $500 is sorta rich for my blood right now? How > much for the student version? :-) I agree--I would love to have it--but 'vi' does just fine when price compared to $500. - -Brandon Gillespie ------------------------------ From: exidor@superior.net (Christopher Masto) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:55:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing Joe Greco writes: > Ethernet switches are not supposed to do anything other than MAC level > address routing. > > Switches by definition will certainly allow IP address collisions because > they do not have a clue what the hell an IP address is. > > The other disadvantage of switches is the potentially large amount of > ARP'ing that can go on to locate hosts in such a network. I guess you're not aware of some of the stuff Synoptics/Bay makes. Check it out sometime - it may come in handy some day. - -- Christopher Masto . . . . Superior Net Support: support@superior.net chris@masto.com . . . . . Masto Consulting: info@masto.com On Flight Attendants, International: The stewardesses of Southwest Airlines must go through four steps, such as hardship, tiredment, dirt feeling. Beside the quality of general stewardess. - from the first edition of Chinese airline Southwest Civil Aviation's - Inflight Magazine. ------------------------------ From: Joe Greco Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:58:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing > Joe Greco writes: > > Ethernet switches are not supposed to do anything other than MAC level > > address routing. > > > > Switches by definition will certainly allow IP address collisions because > > they do not have a clue what the hell an IP address is. > > > > The other disadvantage of switches is the potentially large amount of > > ARP'ing that can go on to locate hosts in such a network. > > I guess you're not aware of some of the stuff Synoptics/Bay makes. Check it > out sometime - it may come in handy some day. What I'm aware of and what a switch - by definition - is, are two potentially different things. Anything that performs switching at a non-MAC layer is not an Ethernet switch, it is something else. "Learn the correct terminology - it may come in handy some day." ... JG ------------------------------ From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:04:12 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: arpresolve errors On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Bill Fenner wrote: > In a message you write: > >> What's the routing table look like for 203.x.y.49? > > > >203.x.y.48/28 203.x.y.49 UGc > >203.x.y.49 203.x.y.34 UH > >203.s.t 203.x.y.49 UGc > > You cut out the most important part. What's the interface for the host > route? A ppp interface or an ethernet? Whose IP address is 203.x.y.34? > > >Yes, there are host routes, but they seem to make > >sense (e.g. the one listed above) for the point to point links. > > I can't tell since I don't know who 203.x.y.34 is. Woops. Sorry, I meant to say that 34 is the local address of the slip interface. 203.x.y.48/28 203.x.y.49 UGc sl1 203.x.y.49 203.x.y.34 UH sl1 203.s.t 203.x.y.49 UGc sl1 The problem is not occurring right at the moment, so I can't see if it varies the routing table. I'll put a watcher program on /var/log/messages to do a netstat -rn when it sees the arpresolve messages. Ethernet IP address is 203.29.224.17. Most ppp and slip interfaces use 203.2.144.1 as the local IP address, including other CSLIP interfaces which have been breaking. I have some 'numbered interface' links and some 'unnumbered interface links'. A few logic data points for you: Type Problem observed CSLIP links yes cslip -> remote net yes cslip -> w/o remote net no cslip -> rem net, numbered yes cslip -> rem net, unnumbered yes ppp links no ppp -> remote net no ppp -> w/o remote net no ppp -> remote net, numbered no ppp -> rem net, unnumbered no Note that if I did not have an example of any of the above, I would have put n/a. Thanks, Danny ------------------------------ From: Jamie Bowden Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:14:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) WP 7.0 for $500? You're out of your mind. If the software vendors didn't rape UNIX users for using there software, maybe more of us would. On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Well, I eagerly sent my request for WP 7.0 hope that many will do > so also. If you don't code this is your chance to contribute 8) > > Regards, > Amancio > > >From The Desk Of Christian Fortin : > > That's the 3th time that I talk with guy at Corel about WP 7.0. > > Corel seem to make avalable a version of WordPerfect 7.0 for Linux... > > Corel have the possibility to build a WP for FreeBSD also... :-) > > > > But they want to have an average of how many person will buy it ! > > > > WP 7.0 will avalable in the first quarter of 1997 at the price > > of 495$ US for single user. You add 299$ US for add licences... > > > > It include the support for many kind of keyboard language > > and all the stuf for build graphique... > > The files are compatible with WP for Windows and DOS. > > > > A Java version of Corel Office will be also avalable... > > > > > > > > ####################################################### > > # Send an e-mail with your coodinate at: # > > # wp@ec.camitel.com # > > # Just say: I want WP 7.0 For freeBSD !!! at 495$ # > > # Name: # > > # #tel: # > > # #Fax: # > > # Adress: # > > # ZIP: # > > ####################################################### > > > > If Corel take desision to release a FreeBSD version > > a person from Corel will contact you in few month... > > It depend how many personne want it... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------- > > E-Mail: Christian Fortin > > Date: 11/20/96 > > Heure: 13:24:21 > > ##################################################--------+ > > Electro-Conception tel:(418) 872-6641 | > > 3665 Croisset fax:(418) 872-9198 | > > Quebec,P.Q. www.ec.camitel.com/ec | > > Canada ftp.ec.camitel.com | > > G1P-1L4 | /----|<|----WM--|(--J > > --------------------------L---WM-----< > > \----1 > > --- > > - > > > Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1661 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 09:27:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14419 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (skynet.ctr.columbia.edu [128.59.64.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14409 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wpaul@localhost) by skynet.ctr.columbia.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA09233; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:24:22 -0500 From: Bill Paul Message-Id: <199611261724.MAA09233@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: looking for an idea To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:24:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: sprice@hiwaay.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611252017.NAA23134@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Nov 25, 96 01:17:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Terry Lambert had to walk into mine and say: [chop] > > What I want is a way for keyserv to learn the UID of the caller that > > can't be spoofed unless an attacker can: > > > > - compromise keyserv itself > > - compromise the kernel > > - break root through some other means, in which case all bets are off > > anyway > > > > Again, it seems like the SysV IPC system calls are the only ones that > > do what I want, which is really too bad. You'd think BSD would have > > something equivalent. > > Well, BSD has the IPC calls, you could use them. It has them, yes, but they can be configured out of the kernel. What I'm worried might happen is that somebody will see the SYSV* options in their kernel config file one day and say "Aw, I don't need those," then build a kernel without them and suddenly, Secure RPC doesn't work on his machine anymore. Note that even if I stuck a big sign above the options in the GENERIC config file that said "Don't touch! No user serviceable parts inside!", somebody would still do it. Then they'd come and asks questions here or complains that it's a bug, since nothing they did could have possibly caused the problem. > But there is nothing that will prevent spoofing from an exceptionally > clever person. Well, yeah, but how many of those do we have running around who aren't encumbered by non-disclosure agreements. :) > There is no way to stop a sufficiently determind person from engaging > in an interposition attack on any network transport, short of one time > pads. Even a Diffie/Helmen is vunerable to an identity switch, where > an interposing party gives the remote side his key instead of your > key, and give you his key, and then unwraps and rewraps the data in > both directions. Sure, you can't (easily) use a route-broadcast > attack for insertion, but it can be done. But I'm not using a network transport. I'm using AF_UNIX sockets (and potentially SysV message queues). The transport medium is the kernel, and one side of the transaction is a process owned by root which I can't control (unless I'm the admin). > Even the IPC code *could* be hacked for an interposition attack, the > same way. Your program has to make some assumptions somewhere, and > when it does, it becomes vunerable. Yes, but this assumes that somebody with root access to the machine has somehow modified either the kernel or keyserv in order to make it possible for the IPC mechanism to be spoofed, thereby making it possible to intercept other users' secret keys (which is what I'm trying to prevent). This could happen if the owner/administrator of the machine was out to screw his users, or if an attacker managed to break into the system and gain root access (and had the means to create a compromised kernel or keyserv executable). Of course, if somebody breaks root on your machine then you're in deep trouble anyway. -Bill -- ============================================================================= -Bill Paul (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu Work: wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research Home: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City ============================================================================= "If you're ever in trouble, go to the CTR. Ask for Bill. He will help you." ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 09:51:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA15625 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:51:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA15619 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:51:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA17252 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:50:43 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611261750.LAA17252@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:47:11 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@frebsd.org In-Reply-To: <10627.848988232@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 25, 96 10:03:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What I mean by this is that while it's relatively easy to quantify > the enable/disable actions for sendmail/qmail, by calling your > utility "pkg_control" you're intimating that this thing will work > effectively for *all* packages which might be enabled or disabled. Please see my other message(s), yes, actually, I would like to see the whole mess evolve in that direction. This could effectively "solve" the problem that lots of people have had with outside vendor packages included in the FreeBSD base distribution, as well. Packages such as Sendmail, BIND, GCC, etc. could all come as "pre-installed packages". This may not be totally compatible with the current paradigm for packages, but do you see what my grand vision is? A user should not HAVE to know that such and such is part of the base system... it should be just as easy to upgrade Sendmail as it is to upgrade "top". Get the latest port/package, and away you go. That is how easy I think it _should_ be. These changes? No, they will not give us that. However, they will at least cause some segregation (even if it IS after-the-fact) to take place, and may provide a mechanism to encourage further refinement along these lines. > To use a totally contrived example, let's say I wanted to disable all > forms of remote login access except for ssh (as many people do). > I would expect to be able to say: > > pkg_control -enable ssh > pkg_control -disable rlogin,telnet > > [yes, I know that rlogin and telnet aren't packages but ssh is, so > already we're into a real grey area, just as with sendmail]. NO!!!!! That is EXACTLY my point, this is NOT a totally contrived example!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have hit the nail PRECISELY on the head. Joe Random Newbie User should not have to understand the differences between base packages and add on packages. As a matter of fact, he should be able to go to % cd /usr/ports/networking/telnet % make; make install and have it automatically go to Cray, fetch the latest Telnet/Telnetd sources, and automatically upgrade the FreeBSD-shipped binaries. THAT requires segregation of the base system back into the vendor-package areas. THAT would be ultimately cool - and is a benefit that I feel we could attain, even if not immediately. _I_ certainly have a vested interest in making this a reality for Sendmail and BIND. Every time there is a security hole, I have to figure out which machines are likely to be targeted, and upgrade them. Usually not a difficult process, but ALWAYS more difficult than % cd /usr/ports/mta/sendmail % make; make install which should just be able to DTRT. > The actions behind making this happen are quite different than the > sendmail/qmail selection actions, and this package-specific > intelligence has to go *somewhere*, right? Yes, Bury it at a low level. Doing a pkg_control -disable telnetd simply needs to comment out the telnet line in /etc/inetd.conf, and reHUP inetd. pkg_control -disable rcommands requires removing setuid bits on rlogin/etc, and then commenting out the rcommands in /etc/inetd.conf. (Maybe the granularity is wrong, maybe you DO want to be able to target just rlogind, or even on a command by command basis... but you see the bigger picture I think). > Or let's say I wanted to install apsfilter as my default printer > filter. I might want to say: > > pkg_control -enable apsfilter > > Which would entail yet another entirely different set of operations. > > Short of making pkg_control a humongous beast from hell with inate > knowledge of every possible package you might want to enable or > disable, it seems like a generic package control program is something > of a bitch to do, and by calling it "pkg_control" that's exactly what > you're suggesting it does. Precisely. How do you handle that complexity? You make it a dispatcher. It knows nothing other than how to do a few basic things to deal with a request. It is the same way "mount" is supposed to work: mount does not actually know how to mount any filesystems, but it does know how to figure out how to call a filesystem-type-specific mount program. When a "package" is installed, it has an option to also install specific functions that allow it to be enabled or disabled. As these are simply files added to a tree, and also can easily be optional, it is simply extending the functionality of the "ports" or "packages" mechanism (that, at least is how I would prefer to see this work). > That's why I suggest doing this more incrementally by service type. > In my examples, there would actually be something like 3 different > commands: > > mail_control -enable qmail -disable sendmail > > access_control -incoming -enable ssh -disable rlogin,telnet > > lp_control -enable apsfilter > > Each command would have a much easier time of it since it only has to > know about a limited set of services. By keeping the argument names > orthogonal (though I think that -enable and -disable are a bit > stretched in some of these examples :-), it's also easier to write a > front end which can feed them all. As noted, I would prefer to build a foundation first, which would make each of these programs much more trivial to do. > Just my 2 cents. Do you require any change? :-) ;-) I will reiterate: The proposed program - whatever it is called - is simply a small step in the right direction. It does not instantly give us ALL of the potential benefits that I am suggesting! However, it does lay a general foundation for further integration of a "subsystem-ized" model within FreeBSD, and I hope you can see why it is that I feel that this is a really excellent goal to shoot for. It certainly would seem to address so many different concerns. Don't like that we ship with perl4? Hey, it's a base subsystem/package. Just upgrade it to perl5. Don't like Tcl, or the compiler, or ? Hey, it's a base subsystem/package. Remove it. No harm done! Paranoid about security? Don't like setuid bits on things you are not using? Hey, no problem! Disable those packages! Cool, cool, cool, in my very humble opinion. And best of all: it need not cause any additional work for anyone who is not willing to do it. It does not have to be a requirement for doing ports, of course, and those of us who have an interest in providing such functionality for FreeBSD base system "packages" such as Sendmail can do so. Where do you want to go, today? ;-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 10:15:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16689 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16683 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:15:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from bebox (hamby2.lightside.net [207.67.176.18]) by covina.lightside.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA22064; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:14:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:14:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby Message-Id: <199611261814.KAA22064@covina.lightside.com> To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 10:21:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16899 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16891 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25314; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:03:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611261803.LAA25314@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:03:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, ben@narcissus.ml.org, kjk1@ukc.ac.uk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <8867.848975625@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 25, 96 06:33:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I use it all the time, but I'm *very* careful not to run more than one > > process on the FS, and I unmount the darn thing as soon as I read/write > > the files to the FS. > > > > It works as long as I treat it like fragile china, and not having it > > would be a real setback for me. > > I understand this, but you also have to realize that many people don't > understand the fragile china approach (and with justification - how > *would* one generally know?) and it's a real setback to have your UFS > filesystems blown away too. :-) > > I'd welcome some compromise solutions, otherwise I think it's simply > too dangerous to advertise, explicitly or implicitly, as a feature. When will devfs be standard? Once devfs is standard, it will be possible to sandbox FS's to prevent collateral damage. The MSDOSFS damage is uniformly collateral damage on a following BSD partition. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 10:23:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16962 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16957 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25327; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:05:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611261805.LAA25327@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb d To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:05:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "David Kelly" at Nov 26, 96 07:42:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I think DigiKey. > > Looked. Haven't called. Also checked the Mouser catalog. Would you > believe neither lists *any* standard HD/Floppy power connectors? That's because they are keyed Molex connectors, and aren't called "HD/Floppy power connectors". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 10:23:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16996 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16991 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <17016(2)>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:23:04 PST Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177711>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:22:56 -0800 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Michael Hancock , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1662 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:49:29 PST." <11661.848998169@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:22:49 PST From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <96Nov26.102256pst.177711@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <11661.848998169@time.cdrom.com>you write: >I already removed this user from the hacker's digest yesterday. It >will probably take awhile longer for the bounces to die out. Funny, I removed him over the weekend by forging an unsubscribe. Perhaps he re-subscribed. We'll be seeing the bounces for a week or more; look at the date of the messages that are bouncing. I think that Lotus_Mail_Exchange@cserve4.ccmail.co mpuserve.com should go into the filtered list (and I sent postmaster@freebsd.org a message to that effect; is the postmaster on vacation?) Bill From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 10:25:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA17195 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lobster.wellfleet.com (lobster.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.253.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA17188 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:25:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pobox.BayNetworks.com by lobster.wellfleet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id NAA23535; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:29:11 -0500 Received: from tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com by pobox.BayNetworks.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA12060; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:25:09 -0500 Received: from tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18509 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:25:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611261825.NAA18509@tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Objdump for 2.1.5 or 2.1.6? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:25:08 -0500 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone ported the binutils objdump program to 2.1.5 or 2.1.6? I can get it to build but it doesn't know anything about the .o files built on 2.1.5. bash$ ./objdump --reloc objdump.o ./objdump: objdump.o: File format not recognized -- Robert Withrow -- (+1 508 436 8256) BWithrow@BayNetworks.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 10:25:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA17218 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA17203 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id MAA17332; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:25:00 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611261825.MAA17332@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb d To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:25:00 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "David Kelly" at Nov 26, 96 07:42:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Anybody know of a source of these power connectors? > > > >I think DigiKey. > > Looked. Haven't called. Also checked the Mouser catalog. Would you > believe neither lists *any* standard HD/Floppy power connectors? Bullch.. uh.. wait. You're right. :-/ DK does carry drive power splitter cables but not the connectors themselves. AE-1027-ND Power Cable for 2 - 5 1/4" Drives claims to be two meters long, which if it is true might still be very practical. At $1.98/each I think DK is probably full of $#!t. Wouldn't hurt to call, though. At that price it would be just as easy to cut 'em up and not even worry about having to crimp the pins. My Molex catalog lists them though, exactly what you wanted as a matter of fact... Disk Drive Power Connection System 70156 Series Female Connector ... insulation displacement ... feed thru or feed to ... Available with red, blue, or black caps :-) Let me know if you want Molex order numbers, I can give you details. They also have the 8981-4P crimp housings that you normally see used on PC power supplies. > >But you do NOT want to do this, I think! > > > >I strongly suspect that you will find that the voltage at the end > >of your "power bus" will be sufficiently less than the power you are > >feeding into it... you would be better off getting a bunch of old > >power supply leads, connecting them all to a 4 pole barrier strip, > >and feeding them that way. > > > >I am sure someone will tell me I am wrong ;-) > > Actually I'm more concerned about the power supply driving 5 or 6 > hard drives. This is probably near the design limit of what should > be a 60W power supply. Three of my drives are labeled "8 watts". > Say each pulls 1.5A on the 5V line, the voltage drop on 18" of > 18ga at 7.5A or 9.0A isn't going to be much. OTOH thats getting > to be a bunch of current. Don't do it! A 60W PS can handle MAX of two 3.5" drives in my opinion and experience, and trying to handle more might work but might also end up with flames shooting out of the power supply. Worse, a 60W PS is typically a cheap unit and may not overload properly, and end up delivering inadequate voltages or current to the drives, which may damage the drives. > Not sure if these drives support "spinup on demand" or not. Am > fairly sure the PS won't tolerate all drives trying to spin up > at once. :-) Absolutely not. I would be impressed if you could even get all of them running at all. I certainly would not want to do it on my equipment: I would lay odds on something bizarre happening. > Also keep in mind this isn't a serious task. These parts are laying > around and I'm going to see what I can do with them. Get a cheap PC power supply. My nice 6-bay 3.5" disk towers have 300W power supplies in them and they are clearly more than adequate. But I can not imagine being able to run even six very efficient drives on 60W, that is 10W/each. "Fat chance". ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:18:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00411 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00405 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA13580; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:19:17 -0800 (PST) To: brantk@atlas.com, bmk@pobox.com cc: bmk@fta.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, peter@taronga.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:11:18 PST." <199611261711.JAA15695@itchy.atlas.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:19:17 -0800 Message-ID: <13578.849035957@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Joe's model for pkg_control doesn't "know" anything about services, nor > does it need to. It knows about "packages" and "actions". Think of it > as a front end to external utilities which will perform most of the work. OK, I think we've been simply slicing the problem off at different points and trying to compare dissimilar layers all this time. :-) I'd have no problem with a generic pkg_control utility which sat on top of a series of more specifically intelligent scripts, though I think that perhaps we should consider whether it's really "packages" we're controlling or services since in, 2 of the examples we've already cited, the lines are somewhat blurred between controlling packages and in-built parts of FreeBSD. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:21:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00546 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00539 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA13471; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:51:53 -0800 (PST) To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) cc: bmk@fta.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:48:58 CST." <199611261348.HAA13543@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:51:53 -0800 Message-ID: <13469.849034313@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > That's why I suggest doing this more incrementally by service type. > > But this hasn't got anything to do with services. It has to do with > security. How about: > > security -enable/disable class-of-resources Not in this particular set of examples, no, but understand that services have many more options *other* than security which you'd also eventually want to fold into the same mechanism. To contrive more examples: mail_control -fast_queue_depth 10 mail_control -bounce_warnings no mail_control -add-virtual "fred sfred@scurvy.com" lp_control -polled-mode lp_control -set-type HP500C All of which might be reasonable things to want if you were intending to write a more robust front-end for a variety of service options. Think "big picture", guys. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:21:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00583 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00569 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA13398; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:32:06 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Nordier cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Nov 1996 12:49:02 +0200." <199611261049.MAA02308@eac.iafrica.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:32:06 -0800 Message-ID: <13396.849033126@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > FWIW, the table below represents a couple of months of collecting > data from users on -questions, who reported that the msdosfs had > seriously corrupted a UFS partition. Cool! I'd hoped someone was working on trying to establish the common aspects of these failures, since they only seem to bite some people and not others, but again - I'd not dared to hope too much. :-) > Unless someone is aware of the problem being more general, it may > be worth patching the msdosfs code to (by default) refuse to access > DOS FSes with > 16 sectors per cluster on such drives. Sounds reasonable to me. If you have any diffs, I'd be happy to commit them. We can't get much worse than we are at the moment. ;) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:21:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA00594 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00577 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:21:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA13378; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:28:31 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Nordier cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, nate@mt.sri.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Nov 1996 12:19:44 +0200." <199611261019.MAA02096@eac.iafrica.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:28:30 -0800 Message-ID: <13376.849032910@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I have a five-week break coming up in mid-December. The code is > pretty much all done now, anyway, so I'll aim to surpise you. :-) Yow! Well, I'm always a big fan of pleasant surprises and this one would be like winning the lottery. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:24:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01040 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:24:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01019 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:24:29 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [149.174.217.137]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA13910 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA17503; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:03:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:58:58 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1665 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611261703_MC1-BC4-D83C@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1665 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-21-96 04:40:00 PM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1665 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:24:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01047 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01026 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:24:29 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: from arl-img-1.compuserve.com (arl-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.217.131]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA13914 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by arl-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA02509; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:04:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:58:58 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1665 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611261703_MC1-BC4-D83C@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from smyrno.sol.net (smyrno.sol.net [206.55.64.117]) by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id QAA08733; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:40:08 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by smyrno.sol.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA00838; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:21:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA16671 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:59:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:59:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611212059.MAA16671@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1665 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Thursday, 21 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1665 In this issue: Re: socket.h Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! New mailing list - CVS-Alert??? Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: socket.h Pentium Pro status Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: Disk Striping Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: New mailing list - CVS-Alert??? Re: Who needs Perl? We do! ft/QIC/Travan support Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Pentium Pro status Re: Who needs Perl? We do! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Crites Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:23:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: socket.h On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Bill Fenner wrote: > I'd strongly reccommend "Unix Network Programming", by Richard Stevens, as > a reference for networking programs like this. I'm *very* glad to see this reference given. I've been lurking on several of the FreeBSD lists for about a week or so (we are starting an isp company, and will be using FreeBSD as the os). I've done unix programming for about a decade, and have found Richard Stevens' books to be invaluable references. I fear many people might pass over his book(s) because of the price, opting for the cheap(est|er) ones. But a cost/usage puts them as some of the best values I have... Lee ------------------------------ From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:30:36 +0100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! According to Michael Smith: > There is no way that Perl 4 would be retained. Perl's size is not a real > issue; people just need stop thinking that 5M is "big" 8) It is not just 5 MB of source. It is just that we have to carefully separate what's in the base Perl tree and what will be added after by the administrator. Fortunately, Perl has everything we need for that but it is tricky to do it right. The @INC path is by default: Base Perl tree 1. /usr/local/lib/perl5/i386-freebsd/5.00308 2. /usr/local/lib/perl5 We'll have to find the proper place for them in /usr/lib{exec,data}/perl and /usr/share/perl because it has a mixture of .so (binary) and .pm/.al (text). Or we could keep all these in /usr/lib/perl (much easier even if it probably violates hier(7) a bit). Add-on packages 3. /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/i386-freebsd 4. /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl 5. . - -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #28: Sun Nov 10 13:37:41 MET 1996 ------------------------------ From: Darius Moos Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:25:57 -0100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Hi, following this discussion the last days, i was wondering if anyone got "undump" compiled ? I've searched the archives and Nate said "it's not hard" but i can not figure it out on my own. The ports for TeX in FreeBSD-2.1.5 does not have it. The unexec-function of emacs is also not trivial to get to compile. Any help how to compile undump is highly appreciated. TIA Darius Moos. ------------------------------ From: Gary Clark II Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:44:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! sos@FreeBSD.org wrote: - --SNIP-- > > If we are going to have all this **** in the base distribution I want > names on a list of people _REPONSIBLE_ for each and every package, so > I know _EXACTLY_ who to yell at when it fails or falls to far > behind. Otherwise core is going to get bashed over and over for not > doings thing right. I'll take my share of bashing, but _NOT_ because > somebody decided to make (favorit program de jur) part of the base system. I am the Perl person unless someone stands forth. I brought 4.036 in back in 2.0 and have been waiting for the wrangling to be done with before I bring in 5.003/4. I have no problem doing this. I also need to "REMOVE" the current info in the tree and update to the latest. No big deal, except for the flamage I would catch. > Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Next point, people are jumping on Perl about how we have so few system utils based on it it should go, where are the utils based on TCL? (And as for incompatiable versions... Do all the ports work with our version of TCL?) Gary - -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups mail info@GBData.COM for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/freebsd-faq.ascii ------------------------------ From: Gary Clark II Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:50:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: New mailing list - CVS-Alert??? Hello, I would like to propose a new mailing list. It would be called cvs-alert and wuold be for those times that someone makes a commit that requires either massive changes to way something is done or re-compiles of programs. Lets face it, when someone is getting all of the lists or a large sub-portion it can be hard to catch little messages at the end of commits telling you to do this or that. Yea or Nay? Gary - -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups mail info@GBData.COM for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/freebsd-faq.ascii ------------------------------ From: Richard Wackerbarth Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:53:49 -0600 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! >In reply to Richard Wackerbarth who wrote: >> >> >Am I hearing a volounteer here ?? >> > or is there silence again this time ?? >> >> I suggest that you reconsider your (core) willingness to delegate. >> I AM doing some chores which, I assure you, some of the "customers" >> consider important. > >You are ?? Yes, but perhaps YOU are one of those that think that "writing new code" is the only worthwhile contribution. :-( >> I HAVE volounteered to take on some things and been rebuffed in my efforts. > >Really, maybe what you wanted to do, wasn't what needed to be done ?? Oh! I think that there was some concensus that it NEEDS to be done. It is just that the "core" is unwilling to delegate the responsibility to me. >> In any case, by delegating certain areas, you are defacto adding those >> individuals to the (now expanded) "core". > >No, I'm not, core is big enough allready, but we need core to be more >of a governing/directionshowing entity, instead of a poor workhorse.. The Board of Directors still get blamed when the company goes bankrupt. The upper level managers are also viewed in poor light. >Like it or not, there has to be rules (like in the real world out >there), and they should be followed. If we have X developers working >in Y different directions, we have lost the game. So if one want's >to participate, one has to follow the rules, simple as that... Yes, but your "rules" have to take into consideration the fact that this is (almost exclusively) unpaid labor. If you do not generate a situation where an individual gets to work onan area that he desires, he can easily choose to simply not contribute. Don't get me wrong. I am all for rules. However, they cut both ways. To be successful, you need to take into consideration reasonable goals and deadlines. But be careful, if you make the rules too unworkable, you eliminate too many participants. If, as it appears to some of us, you have one set of rules for insiders and another set for outsiders, you decrease the desirability of participation. Remember that the only real attribute that distinguishes many to the two populations is that the "insiders" got to this project first (and then locked the door?) >> My comment about dodging the >> consequences by attempting to distance yourself from the problem still >> applies. >I guess we should stop here as we are not going anywhere, and I'm >using valuable time trying to explain things, where I should be >producing code/fixes, which btw is considerably more rewarding than >this.... Perhaps you should consider that in the light of your " we need core to be more of a governing/directionshowing entity..." statement. Successful managers often do not have time for "doing" the nitty-gritty. They MUST delegate. ------------------------------ From: nik@blueberry.co.uk (Nik Clayton) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:21:09 +0000 Subject: Re: socket.h Lee Crites writes: > On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Bill Fenner wrote: > > I'd strongly reccommend "Unix Network Programming", by Richard Stevens, as > > a reference for networking programs like this. > > I'm *very* glad to see this reference given. In which case you'll probably be overjoyed with this URL http://www.noao.edu/~rstevens/ All sorts of useful information from the man himself. N - -- - --+=[ Blueberry Hill Blueberry New Media ]=+-- - --+=[ http://www.blueberry.co.uk/ 1/9 Chelsea Harbour Design Centre, ]=+-- - --+=[ WebMaster@blueberry.co.uk London, England, SW10 0XE ]=+-- - --+=[ Ten-Thousand-Dimensional Web in Heaven and Net on Earth ]ENTP ------------------------------ From: Steven Wallace Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:55:36 -0800 Subject: Pentium Pro status I wanted some input regarding Pentium Pro machines. Has anyone had any problems with the hardware and/or using it with FreeBSD? Are there any problems with the PP chipset(is the latest Orion II or something?) I remember hearing about PCI problems with the chipset. Someone told me they still have problems in orion II. Is this true? What motherboards for Pentium Pro are good and reliable? What about multiprocessor support? Does anyone have FreeBSD hacks to support multiple processors? How well is it working? Thank you, Steven Wallace ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:47:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) > Second, what you should tell Coral to do is send us a copy of the > Linux version and we'll try to certify it for use under FreeBSD. I > don't think that Coral should be pushed to do a FreeBSD version until > we have a better idea of the size of our market since pushing them to > do a port and then seeing it sell badly would be worse than no port at > all. It would only screw us for a second chance. > > I would be happy if vendors with Linux versions of their products > would give us a chance at certifying it under the emulator and, > if it works, listing it as supported under FreeBSD as well (we > will also have to improve our Linux library support, but that > would be a natural side-effect of the certification process also). More important, FreeBSD'ers who buy Linux products to run on FreeBSD should make it clear to the people that are selling the products that they intend to run them on FreeBSD. The only real "certification process" that has any meaning is the port validation the manufacturer does following a port prior to release; anything you do short of that will not gain you someone to talk to when you call their support department with a problem. Notifying them of your intent to use the product under FreeBSD should encourage them to run certification by informing them there is a market, and possibly even encourage them to do a native port. If each FreeBSD sale counts as a false Linux sale, then FreeBSD will be proportionately less desirable a port in the ratio (k1 + n) : (k2 - n). Since k1 was enough for a Linux port, making sure the numbers reflect reality will only help FreeBSD, not hurt Linux. A marketing decision is only as good as the information you give it. I suspect that there are enough FreeBSD users of Linux Mathematica (a heavily discussed topic at various times) to make it worthwhile to have a native port. I'm sure this is true for some of the software running under IBCS2 as well (Informix or one of the other databases, especially). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Jaye Mathisen Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:15:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Disk Striping Uh, by definition, isn't striping spreading the load across spindles? I realize it's a tad more complicated than that, but the essence is the same. On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, michael butler wrote: > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:51:56 +1100 (EST) > From: michael butler > To: "Darrin R. Woods" > Cc: hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Disk Striping > > Darrin R. Woods writes: > > > I just got my news server up and running INN (thanks to everyone that > > helped), but now I'm looking for a better way of dealing with it. I've got > > 3 Fast/Wide 4gb disks to hold news. It would be a lot easier (and better > > performance) if I could stripe (or span) the /var partition accross the 3 > > disks instead of having to guess as to how to partition each drive and into > > what sizes. > > With "only" three drives, you don't want to stripe across them. > > There are four activities which consume disk resources: > > i) maintenance of the active and history files > ii) maintenance of the overview hierarchy > iii) writing out the articles themselves > iv) scribbling to /var/log/news > > Whilst the latter is comparatively "cheap" as it simply extends an existing > file (writes deferred by caching), the first three are best spread across > separate spindles for the best resultant performance. Striping or > concatenation will hurt more than help, > > michael > ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:00:51 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > I think that there's a very important line to be drawn between "I > don't think I need it in the system" and "It should not be in the > system". > > The former is fine, and probably applies to a lot of people. Then > again, it can also be applied to 90% of the system for 90% of users - > the point being that when you aggregate everything that people > want/need, you cover prettymuch everything. > > My point is that there are a sufficient number of people that consider > Perl a 'should-have' to justify its inclusion on those grounds. [ ... ] > I'm still open to argument on this; I just haven't heard a counter > that holds up under scrutiny. How about "because no important system component depends on it"? My main argument against inclusion of additional software in the same class as PERL ("foundation sotware upon which layered components are built") has been that it increases the complexity of the dependency graph. Over time, if a tool exists, people will use it to create expedient (not necessarily "optimal", not necessarily "elegant", but not necessarily "incorrect", either) soloutions to problems. If these soloutions adddress *real* problems, then you have created a dependency, and damaged the ability to create a "minimal system" without the additional software on which the tool is layered. You can think of this as an argument for a tools environment "microkernel", if you insist on an analogy. This is why I argue against TCL scripts. It's why I argue against bash-specific shell scripts, like "configure". It's why I argue against non-bmaked source inclusions, which would add a dependency on GNU make. This is *not* a "bloat/anti-bloat" argument. It is a complexity argument. I have absolutely no problem with an "admin tools" package requiring "perl component", and installing PERL as part of the install of the tools package. But encouraging an increase of complexity in the "minimal system you can create" is, IMO, a bad idea. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:09:31 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > It's not a question of whether _everyone_ needs it, but whether a > sufficient number of people need it. I think that so far the evidence > indicates that this is the case. Not _everyone_ needs an appendectomy. But perhaps a _suficient_ number of people need them, so we should remove everyone's appendix at age 6. > I'm entirely in agreement with the basic principle, but I strongly > believe that we need to incorporate mature and ubiquitous tools in > as seamless and standard a fashion as possible. This is a different argument entirely... it is a complaint that the installation dependency process is insufficiently seamless. Whether it is or not is less important than the fact that if you wish to add layered dependencies (like PERL) for service extension, it is the responsibility of the peple doing the adding to fix the tools so that the added services appear to be standard system components. This is an issue in layered software installation, not an issue of "system services which should be standard". No one is arguing that PERL should not *seem standard* for those packages/ports which depend on it, only that the *seeming* and the *being* should remain seperate. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Richard Wackerbarth Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:29:20 -0600 Subject: Re: New mailing list - CVS-Alert??? >Hello, > >I would like to propose a new mailing list. It would be called cvs-alert >and wuold be for those times that someone makes a commit that requires >either massive changes to way something is done or re-compiles >of programs. > >Lets face it, when someone is getting all of the lists or a large sub-portion >it can be hard to catch little messages at the end of commits telling >you to do this or that. > >Yea or Nay? Nay .. I thought that was one of the purposes of "current" and "stable". Whether it is a separate list of not, the value relies heavily on the committer posting a message. That IMHO is the present weak link. Another list would not help. ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:20:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > So, for me perl is needed and sed/awk (and even sh) could go > away. Perl does it all much better. (Implicitly invoke your own smiley > before getting wound up about this, though I am essentially serious, I > never use any of the above any more and it's been quite a few years > since I worked on a system that didn't have perl). Actually, you use sh to run /etc/rc* each time you boot. It is a minimal system component, mostly because the data and the procedure for system startup have not been sufficiently abstracted. If they had, you could replace the startup procedure with a binary and throw /bin/sh away. This is assuming you replace system components in /etc, /bin, and so on with non-shell-script versions. I have been arguing loudly for each change I see which moves the system in the direction of seperating procedure from the data on which it acts, and will continue to do so for the forseeable future. > I've always felt that we should have a modular install mechanism like > Sun used to have in 4.1.3 (not sure about Solaris, never installed it > personally). Each module was self contained, there was a base system > and then you added things like the man module, which included all the > man binaries and the pages. We could have perl module, which included > perl and all the perl scripts. As long as the scripts are something > can be left out (which currently they could be) then that'd work. If > you could live without the adduser script etc then you wouldn't need > to install that module. Or SCO Xenix, the end-all, be-all of install dependency graph reduction. ... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:45:06 +0100 Subject: ft/QIC/Travan support We have a pretty out of date driver for QIC tapes. Anybody interested in improving it ? - -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:32:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > Am I hearing a volounteer here ?? > > The reason I am picky about what goes in and what does not, is simply > that core is the entity that is going to get blamed/flamed/kicked when > things are not up to snuff. There is only so much we can have on > our platters, if things are not going to melt down. I (me personally) > think we have reached if not exceeded that limit allready, and getting > even more things into the game, be it small things or huge systems > need a _LOT_ of consideration. > What we should do is delegate _RESPONSIBILITY_ of certain areas of > the system (ports is sortof allready delegated) to individuals or > groups that take this _SERIOUSLY_ and does a job at it. > Now the problem is to find these individuals or groups, as each > time it gets to that, all of a sudden NOBODY is left of the > horde that screamed for some or other feature. [ ... ] > Am I hearing a volounteer here ?? > or is there silence again this time ?? I volunteer (again) to fix the VFS. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Snob Art Genre Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 12:54:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Pentium Pro status On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Steven Wallace wrote: > > I wanted some input regarding Pentium Pro machines. > Has anyone had any problems with the hardware and/or using it with > FreeBSD? > > Are there any problems with the PP chipset(is the latest Orion II or something?) > I remember hearing about PCI problems with the chipset. Someone > told me they still have problems in orion II. Is this true? > > What motherboards for Pentium Pro are good and reliable? > > What about multiprocessor support? Does anyone have FreeBSD hacks to > support multiple processors? How well is it working? > > Thank you, > > Steven Wallace I'm using a PPro-200 with the 440FX chipset, I don't remember its nickname. I've had no problems with it at all. Ben ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:46:01 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In reply to sos@FreeBSD.org who wrote: > In reply to Richard Wackerbarth who wrote: > > > > >Am I hearing a volounteer here ?? > > > or is there silence again this time ?? > > > > I suggest that you reconsider your (core) willingness to delegate. > > I AM doing some chores which, I assure you, some of the "customers" > > consider important. > > You are ?? > > > I HAVE volounteered to take on some things and been rebuffed in my > > efforts. > > Really, maybe what you wanted to do, wasn't what needed to be done ?? Actually, given your previous statement: | The reason I am picky about what goes in and what does not, is simply | that core is the entity that is going to get blamed/flamed/kicked when | things are not up to snuff. There is only so much we can have on | our platters, if things are not going to melt down. I (me personally) | think we have reached if not exceeded that limit allready, and getting | even more things into the game, be it small things or huge systems | need a _LOT_ of consideration. There is too much "damage control" and too little "consideration" taking place for an unbiased conclusion that what Richard volunteered to do "wasn't what needed to be done". > No, I'm not, core is big enough allready, but we need core to be more > of a governing/directionshowing entity, instead of a poor workhorse.. > Like it or not, there has to be rules (like in the real world out > there), and they should be followed. If we have X developers working > in Y different directions, we have lost the game. So if one want's > to participate, one has to follow the rules, simple as that... Be careful that in elevating the process to this level, you do not make the process into the product. Process is a tool, not a boundry... it seems to me that you are using it as a brake to thwart an increase in complexity, when in fact the complexity is an artifact of the process. If the process did not require single-threading through a non-reentrant "need a _LOT_ of consideration" mutex, I think you would get a much higher concurrency. The Linux process is an example of one with a higher concurrency, though I think it is also hitting its sociological and architectural limits. It just happens that Linux's limits are about 10 times further out than FreeBSD's because of their difference in process. Not that FreeBSD can elect a godlike Linus of their own, and get all the lieutenants to swear fealty to his vision... that's simply not an organization option because of the way organizations evolve. On the other hand, I can build a complex system, like a grandfather clock, put it in place, and with one motion cause it to operate. I don't need to replace my water clock one gear at a time, only using gears which fit the old water clock, thus limiting my ability to build the best grandfather clock I can build. There is something to be said for revolution instead of evolution when you are attempting to build an organization to use as a vehicle to get you to a goal. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1665 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:26:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01334 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01320 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:26:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from aries.bb.cc.wa.us (root@[208.8.136.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA13544 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by aries.bb.cc.wa.us (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA19208 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:06:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:06:35 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Coleman To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk subscribe freebsd-hackers From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:24:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01108 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01085 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:24:44 -0800 (PST) From: StevenR362@aol.com Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com (emout20.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.46]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA13807 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA28576 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:43:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:43:20 -0500 Message-ID: <961126164319_1117895175@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Is Freefall still down? Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I can't get a cvsup update going to cvsup.freebsd.org. Nor can I ping or telnet to freefall. A traceroute to freefall ends at 14 E0-CRL-SFO-02-E0X0.US.CRL.NET (165.113.55.2) 418.510 ms * 349.873 ms 15 T1-CDROM-00-EX.US.CRL.NET (165.113.118.2) 358.751 ms 398.210 ms * 16 * * * wcarchive still seems reachable though. Steve From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:25:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA17195 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lobster.wellfleet.com (lobster.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.253.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA17188 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:25:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pobox.BayNetworks.com by lobster.wellfleet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id NAA23535; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:29:11 -0500 Received: from tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com by pobox.BayNetworks.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA12060; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:25:09 -0500 Received: from tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18509 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:25:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199611261825.NAA18509@tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Objdump for 2.1.5 or 2.1.6? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:25:08 -0500 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone ported the binutils objdump program to 2.1.5 or 2.1.6? I can get it to build but it doesn't know anything about the .o files built on 2.1.5. bash$ ./objdump --reloc objdump.o ./objdump: objdump.o: File format not recognized -- Robert Withrow -- (+1 508 436 8256) BWithrow@BayNetworks.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:25:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01198 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01182 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA13714 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA24839; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:22:50 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA15958; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:22:49 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.2/8.6.9) id WAA14440; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:18:35 +0100 (MET) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199611262118.WAA14440@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Inappropriate/inconsistent EEXIST from ioctl(sockfd, SIOCAIFADDR,...) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:18:35 +0100 (MET) Cc: john@starfire.mn.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199611261423.IAA02686@starfire.mn.org> from "john@starfire.mn.org" at "Nov 26, 96 08:23:01 am" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As john@starfire.mn.org wrote: (Inconsistency: the network code has `recycled' a bunch of errno's, giving them a different meaning. I always thought that this has been a very silly idea, given the frequent use of utilities like perror(). Wrt. routing, EEXIST basically means ``This route does already exist.'') > Then, > for reasons I have not been able to nail down, after several cycles of > connecting and disconnecting (sometimes as few as two, sometimes several) > PPPD will start getting EEXIST from the ioctl call mentioned above. > I have been working with ppp-2.3b3. My system is largely 2.1-R, but I > have gotten some significant networking components from 2.1.5-R,... Are you sure you haven't missed /sys/net/route.c? I remember that problems like you're describing have been very `popular' way back, in particular (but not only) when proxarp was also in use. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:29:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01930 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01909 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA13228 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA01015 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:25:35 -0800 Received: (from chuck@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id PAA17268 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:21:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:21:37 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Green Message-Id: <199611262021.PAA17268@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: A little help with figuing something out. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, help me figure this out... I've been watching the occational message floating by about the "new" sound drivers for freebsd. So is someone working on integrating Hannu's newest driver? Or is it a patched version of an older version of (formerly known as) voxware? Or something different all together? Just trying to figure this all out :) -- Charles Green, PRC Inc. Rome Laboratory, NY From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:29:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01934 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01913 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA13376 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id MAA04199; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:35:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <329B547F.167EB0E7@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:35:11 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Paul CC: Terry Lambert , sprice@hiwaay.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: looking for an idea References: <199611261724.MAA09233@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Paul wrote: > > If YOU ( the server) are root.... make a file owned by them mode 400 require them to open it and send you the file descriptor via AF_UNIX check it matches.. if it does, then 1/ the are themselves or 2/ they are root (game over) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:29:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01974 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:29:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01929 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA13257 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from isbalham ([192.31.26.1]) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA02423 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:31:28 -0800 Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id UAA13863; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:19:08 GMT Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:05:54 GMT Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:05:54 GMT X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop) Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Msdosfs is seriously broken. [...] > >We should probably just remove it entirely for now.[...] > >Any strong votes to the contrary? I don't think there's anything >about the current msdosfs we want to keep anyway. > > Jordan Er, hangonaminute... I rely heavily on it for dealing with dos-format floppies, and I suspect I'm not alone. -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:29:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02004 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:29:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01945 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from gvr.win.tue.nl (root@gvr.win.tue.nl [131.155.210.19]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA13381 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from guido@localhost) by gvr.win.tue.nl (8.8.2 with smtp patch/8.8.2) id VAA18493; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:49:20 +0100 (MET) From: Guido van Rooij Message-Id: <199611262049.VAA18493@gvr.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: <199611252014.VAA18142@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 25, 96 09:14:37 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:49:20 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org, kjk1@ukc.ac.uk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > As K.J.Koster wrote: > > > Altough I am speculating here, I think this has to do with the fact that > > I do not have msdosfs compiled in with the kernel. After installing a > > different kernel, I asked the system to modload msdosfs, with the above > > result. > > Running a kernel with the wrong LKMs is known to cause you grey hairs. > I'm often falling into this trap, but the other way around: by > rebooting a new kernel without rebuilding and reinstalling the LKMs > first. Can't we built in some way of detecting that an lkm is for the wrong kernel? If things are so dependant, why not take the uname -a string as an identifier.... -Guido From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:33:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02935 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02885 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:33:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA13124 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12041; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:15:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:15:57 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Rob Ballantyne cc: FreeBSD-hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Device Driver Writing. In-Reply-To: <329A2A46.5CC@cs.sfu.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Rob Ballantyne wrote: > I hope this isn't too much of an intrusion. I was wondering if there > is a reasonable source of information about writing device drivers for > FreeBSD? There is a bit of a document in the tutorials section of the FreeBSD web site. (http://www.freebsd.org/tutorials) -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:39:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04305 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04280 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA12487 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25369; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:26:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611261826.LAA25369@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:26:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, kegrotla@korrnet.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Warner Losh" at Nov 25, 96 09:15:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > : > Oh by the way i have heard a rumour that MAC PowerPCs will support > : > FreeBSD. Any truth to this. That would be just totally awsome. Running > : > FreeBSD on a RISC chip machine. > : > : I think it's false. I've certainly not heard of any plans to do this. > > Oh, I just realized that NetBSD just had a whole slug of Power PC > stuff checked into it. I don't know which machines they support at > this time, but that might be a reasonable alternative. The stuff I've seen uses the ROM's. It's an interesting science project, but it's not port until it has native drivers that don'e single-thread all computation on the machine pending I/O completion. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:39:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04326 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04285 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA12476 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:43:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25359; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:25:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611261825.LAA25359@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:25:10 -0700 (MST) Cc: kegrotla@korrnet.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Warner Losh" at Nov 25, 96 09:11:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If there really are non-intel ports of FreeBSD being actively worked > on, I'd love to hear about them. I am working on a PPC port to Motorolla supplied hardware only (no Mac). I have *some* code, mostly from Jeffrey Hsu and NetBSD, for the DEC Alpha. Jeffrey did the port of the NetBSD code, with CGD, to the PPC platform. I have FreeBSD's timer code, console code, interrupt code, and a non-working VM ported over to the Alpha. The loaner machines Jeffrey and I had were recalled. The port lives on mag tape. I have an HP 300 (well, not strictly true; it's a 68040) that I bought to hack on a port for the 680x0. I have not done anything with it because NetBSD will not load (it can't disklabel a SCSI disk). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:39:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04342 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04306 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA12448 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:39:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25347; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:20:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611261820.LAA25347@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC To: kegrotla@korrnet.org (Kjell E Grotland) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:20:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Kjell E Grotland" at Nov 25, 96 07:54:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Oh by the way i have heard a rumour that MAC PowerPCs will support > FreeBSD. Any truth to this. That would be just totally awsome. Running > FreeBSD on a RISC chip machine. Depends. Will they ever be as documented as the Motorolla Ultra 603/604 motherboards Soled by FirePower systems, Arrow Electronics, and used in Motorolla PowerStack systems? I have been unable to get my hands on the touted-for-Linux OSF/Mach hardware interface so far, which is supposedly the only publically available "documentation". Even so, the hardware it applies to is the new Mac's, *NOT* the 6100, 7100, 8100 NuBus systems. So if you can buy it used for a resonable price, it won't run (ever) unless Apple documents it. There is some indication from the NetBSD camp that the Mach code is (like the Tennon Systems MACH-10) running through the ROM's. This means that the drivers are single threaded, non-reentrant, and a huge bottleneck to multiprocessing (hey! Just like running MacOS on top of those same ROM's!). I know I've been arguing for BIOS-based fallback drivers for PC's for forever, but they are not something on which one could safely base an entire port (yes, I know the 1.1.5 PS/2 port which was never released used ABIOS calls; ABIOS is not BIOS is not Mac ROM's). Most likely I will be hacking on a BeBox after the SMP stuff is committed and the Intel MP spec is abstracted under a HAL used by the kernel (surprisingly, PPC based machines don't follow the Intel MP spec... go figure 8-)). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:40:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04518 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04491; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA12496 ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA25389; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:32:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611261832.LAA25389@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: 2.2-ALPHA install failure To: hsu@freefall.freebsd.org (Jeffrey Hsu) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:32:19 -0700 (MST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611261048.CAA19854@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jeffrey Hsu" at Nov 26, 96 02:48:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It still bugs me that newfs (or better: UFS) is often wasting so many > > sectors at the end of a partition since it also still believes that > > disks have something like a uniform geometry that can be expressed in > > terms of cylinders, heads, and sectors... > > I wrote an ad-hoc brute-force program to determine the optimal -u > paramter between 2048 and 4096 which will minimize the number of > wasted cylinders. I suggest we add the few lines to do this to > newfs. Actually, there's a nice formula that will do this; it's a second order polonomial equation (from what I remember)... I worked it out once. Probably you should post to sci.math asking for a soloution... (From the anti-brute-force peanut gallery). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:42:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA04731 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from vdp01.vailsystems.com (root@vdp01.vailsystems.com [207.152.98.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04726 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from crocodile.vale.com (crocodile [204.117.217.147]) by vdp01.vailsystems.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06896 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:42:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from jaguar (jaguar.vale.com [204.117.217.146]) by crocodile.vale.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA18540 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:42:09 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <329B7241.67E@vailsys.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:42:09 -0600 From: Hal Snyder Reply-To: hal@vailsys.com Organization: Vail Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RealAudio for FreeBSD! Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2B2373B665B9" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2B2373B665B9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forwarded Charles Henrich's file name gripe (with a small dig of my own) to the RealAudio people. This response was emailed to me, but the salutation is to Charles. --------------2B2373B665B9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from vdp01.vailsystems.com (vdp01i.vale.com [204.117.217.148]) by crocodile.vale.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18457 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:28:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from murrow.prognet.com (prognet.com [205.219.198.1]) by vdp01.vailsystems.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06834 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:28:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from maryr.prognet.com (one138.prognet.com) by murrow.prognet.com with SMTP id AA07140 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:28:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19961126135531.006af6bc@mail.prognet.com> X-Sender: maryr@mail.prognet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:28:17 -0800 To: hal@vailsys.com From: "MaryR, Progressive Networks" Subject: Re: [Fwd: RealAudio for FreeBSD!] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Charles, Thank-you for taking the time to write us with your thoughts. We believe that all customer comments, positive or negative, can help to improve our products. Your comment will be forwarded to the appropriate people in our organization. Please visit our Web site periodically for up to date information on Progressive Networks and our products. At 12:27 PM 11/25/96 -0600, you wrote: >The subsribe form for the RealAudio mail list off the Web page gives a >server error so I couldn't join. Here's a complaint from a Unix user of >RealAudio about the unwieldy length of a RealAudio client config file >name. > >Looks to me as if the file name was created by a beginning programmer. >:) >Received: from vdp01.vailsystems.com (vdp01i.vale.com [204.117.217.148]) by crocodile.vale.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02456 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:41:28 -0600 (CST) >Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by vdp01.vailsystems.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA28952 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:41:30 -0600 (CST) >Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) > by mail.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA21066; > Sat, 23 Nov 1996 14:36:15 -0500 (EST) >Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08787; > Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:22:12 -0800 (PST) >Received: (from root@localhost) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08732 > for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:21:57 -0800 (PST) >Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08724 > for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:21:55 -0800 (PST) >Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA18902 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 14:21:48 -0500 (EST) >From: Charles Henrich >Message-Id: <199611231921.OAA18902@crh.cl.msu.edu> >Subject: RealAudio for FreeBSD! >To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org >Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 14:21:48 -0500 (EST) >X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org >X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Precedence: bulk > >One really annoying thing I've noticed with RealAudio is its insistance of >placing the file ".Progressive_Networks_RealAudio_Player_30" in my home dir, >mucking up my ls formatting big time. No way that I can see to change it >either, time to break out the binary editor! > >-Crh > > Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu > > http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich > > --------------2B2373B665B9-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 14:53:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05351 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05337 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA13999 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id QAA17750; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:34:26 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611262234.QAA17750@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:34:25 -0600 (CST) Cc: peter@taronga.com, bmk@fta.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <13469.849034313@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 26, 96 10:51:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Not in this particular set of examples, no, but understand that > services have many more options *other* than security which you'd also > eventually want to fold into the same mechanism. To contrive more examples: > > mail_control -fast_queue_depth 10 > mail_control -bounce_warnings no > mail_control -add-virtual "fred sfred@scurvy.com" > > lp_control -polled-mode > lp_control -set-type HP500C > > All of which might be reasonable things to want if you were intending > to write a more robust front-end for a variety of service options. > > Think "big picture", guys. :-) That's a nice big picture, I agree, but I am not talking about configuration of packages. That might very WELL be addressed through a mechanism like what you are describing! I am more interested in the MANAGEMENT of packages, i.e., is a particular package available and/or enabled? That is a higher level ("bigger picture" ;-) ) question than configuration particulars. CONFIGURATION of packages is a problem as well. I am not sure that it is wise to try to solve both problems with the same tool, but am certainly willing to discuss it if you believe that it is (I will tell you now: I have a preconceived notion that it is not a good idea). ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:02:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06118 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:02:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from itchy.atlas.com ([206.29.170.227]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06110 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:02:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brantk@localhost) by itchy.atlas.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) id OAA16837; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:45:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611262245.OAA16837@itchy.atlas.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com (Joe Greco) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:45:47 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, peter@taronga.com, bmk@fta.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: brantk@atlas.com In-Reply-To: <199611262234.QAA17750@brasil.moneng.mei.com> from Joe Greco at "Nov 26, 96 04:34:25 pm" From: "Brant Katkansky" Reply-to: bmk@pobox.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Not in this particular set of examples, no, but understand that > > services have many more options *other* than security which you'd also > > eventually want to fold into the same mechanism. To contrive more examples: > > > > mail_control -fast_queue_depth 10 > > mail_control -bounce_warnings no > > mail_control -add-virtual "fred sfred@scurvy.com" > > > > lp_control -polled-mode > > lp_control -set-type HP500C > > > > All of which might be reasonable things to want if you were intending > > to write a more robust front-end for a variety of service options. > > > > Think "big picture", guys. :-) > > That's a nice big picture, I agree, but I am not talking about > configuration of packages. That might very WELL be addressed through > a mechanism like what you are describing! > > I am more interested in the MANAGEMENT of packages, i.e., is a particular > package available and/or enabled? That is a higher level ("bigger > picture" ;-) ) question than configuration particulars. > > CONFIGURATION of packages is a problem as well. I am not sure that it > is wise to try to solve both problems with the same tool, but am certainly > willing to discuss it if you believe that it is (I will tell you now: I have > a preconceived notion that it is not a good idea). > I'm of the same mind as Joe on this, but I don't see it as a problem to wedge it in elegantly in the future: pkg_control -config subsystem [opts] where opts are arguments that are passed to subsystem's config script/program. -- Brant Katkansky (bmk@pobox.com, brantk@atlas.com) Software Engineer, ADC From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:11:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06753 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06748 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA14087; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:10:37 -0800 (PST) To: Charles Green cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: A little help with figuing something out. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:21:37 EST." <199611262021.PAA17268@fang.cs.sunyit.edu> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:10:36 -0800 Message-ID: <14085.849049836@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ok, help me figure this out... I've been watching the occational > message floating by about the "new" sound drivers for freebsd. So is someone > working on integrating Hannu's newest driver? Or is it a patched version of a There are no "new" drivers - just a recent addition to bring in better support for the AWE32. The basic voxware stuff remains the same. Someday, perhaps, we will have OSS/Lite support just as soon as Hannu makes it work under FreeBSD (no, I have no idea when - ask Hannu :-). Until then, we'll be using the same stuff we've been using for years. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:23:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA07491 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07486 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id RAA17794; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:07:27 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611262307.RAA17794@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: brantk@atlas.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:07:27 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, peter@taronga.com, bmk@fta.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199611262245.OAA16837@itchy.atlas.com> from "Brant Katkansky" at Nov 26, 96 02:45:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > CONFIGURATION of packages is a problem as well. I am not sure that it > > is wise to try to solve both problems with the same tool, but am certainly > > willing to discuss it if you believe that it is (I will tell you now: I have > > a preconceived notion that it is not a good idea). > > > > I'm of the same mind as Joe on this, but I don't see it as a problem > to wedge it in elegantly in the future: > > pkg_control -config subsystem [opts] > > where opts are arguments that are passed to subsystem's config script/program. Hi Brant, I was _thinking_ about that very possibility but did not want to confuse the issue for the time being. :-) As I wrote to Jordan, I do believe that the true "bigger picture" is the MANAGEMENT issue, being able to intelligently deal with a particular program through an interface that is preferably common to both FreeBSD-ports and FreeBSD-base-stuff. However, if that were already a given, I was thinking along the same lines that I think Brant was, and I would extend it as follows: Since we already have a pkg_control management function that is extensible (at least the shell script pseudocode I posted would be), why not add a "-config" capability? It would be great to write a "mail_control" interface on top of that. Let's see how it works, at least in my head... "mail_control -bounce_warnings no" mail_control finds out what MTA is active (another potential problem to solve, probably not too hard). Then it dispatches the request to the pkg_control mechanism: pkg_control -config sendmail bounce_warnings=no --> "Ok" pkg_control -config nmail bounce_warnings=no --> "Nmail does not support the setting of bounce_warnings" (Nmail being a hypothetical MTA). Maybe mail_control even keeps around a list of the specified preferences, so that when you do a "mail_control -bounce_warnings no" and then later a "mail_control -switchto nmail" under the sheets it does a "pkg_control -disable sendmail" "pkg_control -enable nmail" "pkg_control -config nmail bounce_warnings=no" to transparently initialize the new mailer with the same settings that the old mailer had. THAT may allow a truly portable and generalized "mail_control" mechanism to be written without extensive knowledge of the underlying details! Yes! Go Team! :-) :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:28:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02428 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:30:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA02413 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:30:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA25684 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:15:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611262215.PAA25684@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Anyone seen an RFC822 parser? To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:15:08 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'd like a Lex and Yacc grammar for an RFC822 parser. Has anyone ever seen such a thing? Or is the pseudo-grammar in the RFC itself the closest thing there is? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:28:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03493 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:35:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03442 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA12785 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA10216 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:26:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:26:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Is there a CVSUP mirror kit? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I would like to use my own facilities to keep my trees sync'd up with a master server at my facility, rather than bogging down the net with 3 parallel updates. Does somebody have something like this packaged up already? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:28:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03693 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03670; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:36:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from bnr.ca (x400gate.nortel.ca [192.58.194.73]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA12932 ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:47:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611261947.LAA12932@who.cdrom.com> Received: from bcarsfba by bnr.ca id <19961126160657-1@bnr.ca>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:07:43 -0500 Received: from bnr.ca by bcarsfba.bnr.ca id <29339-0@bcarsfba.bnr.ca>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:01:17 -0500 Date: 26 Nov 1996 10:43 EST To: akiyama@kme.mei.co.jp Cc: freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, peter@taronga.com From: "barry (b.a.) scott" Subject: Re: Drive with 1024 byte logical blocks Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm only using /sbin/disklabel, but never got a problem. > /sbin/fdisk ..., humm, it's not worked for 1024/2048 byte/sector > media. newfs has tests that the last sector on the new file system can be written. It writes a 512 byte sector to do this test. If this works then you cannot have reliable error checking in your code. It is an error to attempt to write to 1/2 of a sector. BArry From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:29:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03095 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ami.tom.computerworks.net (AMI.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA03075 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:33:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com by ami.tom.computerworks.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0vSW4M-0021aZC; Tue, 26 Nov 96 17:33 EST Received: (from peter@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA22646; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:30:12 -0600 From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Message-Id: <199611262230.QAA22646@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:30:11 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <13578.849035957@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 26, 96 11:19:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'd have no problem with a generic pkg_control utility which sat on > top of a series of more specifically intelligent scripts, though I > think that perhaps we should consider whether it's really "packages" > we're controlling or services since in, 2 of the examples we've > already cited, the lines are somewhat blurred between controlling > packages and in-built parts of FreeBSD. I agree. The name "package" is mnemonically appropriate but it doesn't match the terminology already established in the existing system. What's another word for Roget? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:29:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03949 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03864 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA12722 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:12:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id NAA17402; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:10:07 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611261910.NAA17402@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Turbo FreeBSD CD To: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfram Schneider) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:10:06 -0600 (CST) Cc: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, FreeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199611252140.WAA00524@campa.panke.de> from "Wolfram Schneider" at Nov 25, 96 10:40:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Wilko Bulte writes: > >I just today got a catalog in my PObox of Pacific HighTech CDROM. > >A bit to my surprise it has a 'Turbo FreeBSD' CDROM listed on it's > >cover. I contains 2.1.5R and a 2.2 SNAP (960801? it's very > >fine print). > > I got the catalog too. I guess PHT "bought" the address book from WC. > > PS: PHT sells the the 'Turbo FreeBSD' CD-ROM as > platform (OS) 'Linux' ;-{ http://pacific.pht.com/catalog/ No no NO, you misunderstood!!!! It is sold as a companion CD-ROM to Linux, so that when you get frustrated with your Linux platform, you can install FreeBSD and all your problems suddenly go away :-) ;-) Very "HighTech" stuff.. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:39:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03053 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:33:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03021 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:33:30 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.206.133]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA12966 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA25161; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:52:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:04:17 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1663 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611261452_MC1-C33-929F@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1663 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-21-96 09:04:00 AM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1663 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:40:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03991 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03946 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from itchy.atlas.com ([206.29.170.227]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA12764 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brantk@localhost) by itchy.atlas.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) id LAA15898 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:20:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611261920.LAA15898@itchy.atlas.com> Subject: Re: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1661 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:20:36 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: brantk@atlas.com In-Reply-To: <199611261226_MC1-BCB-620E@compuserve.com> from "Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com" at "Nov 26, 96 00:06:47 am" From: "Brant Katkansky" Reply-to: bmk@pobox.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Am I the only one who's getting these bounce-o-grams in my mailbox? > Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org > Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) > id RAA28009; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:35:37 -0500 > From: > Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.8.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA07530; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:32:00 -0500 (EST) > Received: (from root@localhost) > by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA14031 > for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:09:34 -0800 (PST) > Message-Id: <199611202209.OAA14031@freefall.freebsd.org> > To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1661 > Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org > Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org > Precedence: bulk > > [message body snipped] -- Brant Katkansky (bmk@pobox.com, brantk@atlas.com) Software Engineer, ADC From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:41:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03648 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03614 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA12897 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:42:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA11812 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:40:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:40:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Port of tkdesk seems to fail Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk tkdesk 1.0b3, on -current as of Aug26th. gcc -O2 -I/usr/local/include -I/usr/local/include -I/usr/X11R6/include -c tixImgXpm.c ar rc libdesk.a init.o dsk_ls.o misc.o util.o ot.o o_FileListbox.o tixImgXpm.o ranlib libdesk.a gcc -O2 -I/usr/local/include -I/usr/local/include -I/usr/X11R6/include -c tkAppInit.c gcc -O2 -c malloc.c gcc -s tkAppInit.o malloc.o -o tkdesksh libdesk/libdesk.a netscape-remote/libnetscape.a blt/src/libBLT.a -L/usr/local/lib -ltk41 -L/usr/X11R6/lib -lX11 itcl/src/libitcl.a -L/usr/local/lib -ltcl75 -lm netscape-remote.o: Undefined symbol `_Tk_CreateTimerHandler' referenced from text segment netscape-remote.o: Undefined symbol `_Tk_DoOneEvent' referenced from text segment netscape-remote.o: Undefined symbol `_Tk_DeleteTimerHandler' referenced from text segment netscape-remote.o: Undefined symbol `_Tk_CreateTimerHandler' referenced from tex The libraries are in /usr/local/lib, but I have sucessfully avoided learning any tcl or tk, so I have no idea if they're all the pieces. schizo% ls -ld *tk* -rw-r--r-- 1 bin bin - 478486 Sep 13 16:31 libexpectk.a -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin - 444686 Jun 27 16:02 libtk.a* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin - 418041 Jun 27 16:02 libtk.so.3.6* -r-xr-xr-x 1 root bin - 560527 May 11 1996 libtk4.1.so.1.0* -rw-r--r-- 1 root bin - 578954 Nov 22 03:21 libtk40.a -rw-r--r-- 1 root bin - 535720 Nov 22 03:21 libtk40.so.1.0 -r-xr-xr-x 1 root bin - 560612 Aug 27 13:16 libtk41.so.1.0* -rw-r--r-- 1 root bin - 1712 Aug 27 13:16 tkConfig.sh drwxr-xr-x 3 root bin - 512 Jun 27 16:02 tk/ drwxr-xr-x 4 root bin - 512 Nov 22 03:22 tk4.0/ drwxr-xr-x 3 root bin - 512 Aug 27 13:16 tk4.1/ schizo% ls -ld *tcl* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin - 160296 Jun 27 15:54 libtcl.a* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin - 156192 Jun 27 15:54 libtcl.so.7.3* -r--r--r-- 1 root bin - 267247 Apr 2 1996 libtcl7.5.so.1.0 -r-xr-xr-x 1 root bin - 276432 Aug 27 13:09 libtcl75.so.1.0* -rw-r--r-- 1 root bin - 3627 Aug 27 13:09 tclConfig.sh drwxr-xr-x 2 root bin - 512 Jun 27 15:54 tcl/ drwxr-xr-x 2 root bin - 512 Aug 27 13:09 tcl7.5/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:42:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03659 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03640 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dirac.phys.washington.edu (dirac.phys.washington.edu [128.95.93.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA12868 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by dirac.phys.washington.edu (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/UW-NDC Revision: 2.25 ) id LAA02956; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:34:43 -0800 From: "William R. Somsky" Message-Id: <199611261934.LAA02956@dirac.phys.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:34:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199611260631.WAA13912@freefall.freebsd.org> from "owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org" at Nov 25, 96 10:31:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Short of making pkg_control a humongous beast from hell with inate > knowledge of every possible package you might want to enable or > disable, it seems like a generic package control program is something > of a bitch to do, and by calling it "pkg_control" that's exactly what > you're suggesting it does. > > That's why I suggest doing this more incrementally by service type. > In my examples, there would actually be something like 3 different > commands: > > mail_control -enable qmail -disable sendmail > > access_control -incoming -enable ssh -disable rlogin,telnet > > lp_control -enable apsfilter > > Each command would have a much easier time of it since it only has to > know about a limited set of services. By keeping the argument names > orthogonal (though I think that -enable and -disable are a bit > stretched in some of these examples :-), it's also easier to write a > front end which can feed them all. > > Just my 2 cents. Well, I'll toss my 2 cents in as well... (Or perhaps it's only one cent, since this may turn our a half-*ssed idea. :-) Even a mail_control would be difficult -- would it understand and know how to setup/enable/disable/whatever, say, qmail, procmail, othermail, wrsmail, spiffmail, bogusmail, etc, etc, etc? I would think that the actions to be performed for any given package would need to be specified individually for that package, and not within the "tool" itself. Suppose we had something sort of like this: We'd have a general tool which has all the interface and manipulation pieces for performing general tasks like this (presenting the user w/ choices, copying files, deleting files, modifiying files according to some pattern, etc), but has no "what to do" intellegence and which knows nothing of any specific package, tool, utility or service. For each "thingy" that can be manipulated (sendmail, qmail, telnet, lpr, etc) there is a "maintainance control" file which tells the general tool 1) what maintainance actions can be done to this "thingy" (install, enable, disable, reset, cleanup, etc) and the "commands" to execute to do this -- these would be "commands" understood by the general tool, such as "add this line to the /etc/foobar file", "delete any line containg 'bar' from the /etc/barfoo file", and not necessarily true shell commands. Perhaps it would look someting vaguely like: (I'm just making this up, so don't take it too serioiusly.) # Maintainance control for foomailer # ... stuff for installing, enabling, etc ... start: # start foomailer running { run /etc/foomailer -l foolog # execute /etc/foomailer } stop: # stop foomailer { killjob foomailer # kill any process called foomailer delete /var/lock/foolock/* # delete any foolock files } reset: # reset foomailer from possible error conditions { @stop # do the "stop" action @start # do the "start" action } prune: # clears out the foo logfiles to { prune 1000 /var/log/foolog # directive to prune to last 1000 lines } So then once you copied the foomailer files into place you could execute the commands like: "thiny_cntl foomailer reset" or "thingy_cntl foomailer prune" to perform those actions, and if you like more hand holdy interfaces, "thingy_cntl -i foomailer" would bring up an interactive thingy tool which would present a menu of the available actions for foomailer. If anyone was ambitious in writing this thing, you could have ways within the tool to have parameters for some of the actions, and be able to query the user for parameters if not supplied... I'm not saying we should have something kind of like this (I'm definitly _not_ saying we should have something _exactly_ like this), but I though I'd toss the idea in the ring so others could kick it around and see if there is anything useful they could wring out of it. I guess the main point I'd like to suggest is that perhaps the way to go is with a general tool that contains all the muscle for doing these things and individual per-package/utility/service control files which contain all the brains for what to do. So, can anybody get anything out of this -- other than severe nausia? ________________________________________________________________________ William R. Somsky somsky@phys.washington.edu Department of Physics, Box 351560 B432 Physics-Astro Bldg Univ. of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-1560 206/616-2954 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:44:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03331 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03303 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:34:46 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA13000 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hil-img-1.compuserve.com by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0vSTeC-0008taC; Tue, 26 Nov 96 11:58 PST Received: by hil-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id OAA17429; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:54:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:04:17 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1663 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611261454_MC1-C33-929F@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from smyrno.sol.net (smyrno.sol.net [206.55.64.117]) by arl-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA04351; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:54:17 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by smyrno.sol.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id HAA00790; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:44:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA22198 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 05:00:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 05:00:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611211300.FAA22198@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1663 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Thursday, 21 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1663 In this issue: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Is FastVid implemented on XFree86? Re: socket.h Re: Is FastVid implemented on XFree86? Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Ipx to ip routing vx driver problems Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Help identifying a compressed file ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:07:43 +1100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Michael Smith writes: > > Yes, I use it quite a bit, but in a base distribution I don't really > > see it as an appropriate tool. It is certainly easier that programming > > in, say, bourne shell, and probably significantly faster too. But I > > still think it is a mistake it being part of the base system. > > I think that there's a very important line to be drawn between "I > don't think I need it in the system" and "It should not be in the > system". Agreed. But there's also the distinction between "needed" and "desired". Certainly *I* regard Perl as an indispensible tool for what I do. I'm less certain that everyone else would regard it in the same light, which is why I still don't think it appropriate for a *base* distribution. > My point is that there are a sufficient number of people that consider > Perl a 'should-have' to justify its inclusion on those grounds. >From a more pragmatic standpoint, I disagree. Yes, lots of people want or need it in what they do, but whether it is *needed* to run/install/build the base system is a different question. Right now there is some dependance on perl (and using an outdated and unsupported version), but my worry is that it being there in the first place is more likely to increase that dependance. The point is not really whether perl4 disappears or not (it *must* do so eventually - it is, as I said, old and unsupported) but whether perl5 is needed in the base distribution. Perl5 is huge and is delivered with quite a deal of bloat. Too big for the small dependancies that currently exist. If we used perl and most the anciliary modules and the scripts which depended on it could not be so easily replaced (and I'll admit that sgmlfmt appears to be one of those), then it would be justified. > The latter point bears discussion; someone putting this point needs to > offer a counter to the benefits promised by the former. So far, most > of the arguments have been "because I don't think it should be" (which > counts for very little), or "because Perl keeps changing" (which has > been comprehensively refuted by Perl users I am inclined to trust). Yes, the "keeps changing" argument is indeed bogus. There are one or two minor syntactic changes, which later versions of perl have built-in warnings for are easily handled, certainly easily enough done for the scripts that are actually installed under -current. > Other arguments that have been offered for the latter in previous > discussions; "Perl is too big" (size is relative, disk is cheap), > "Perl would be too hard to track" (contrib scheme should fix this). > > I'm still open to argument on this; I just haven't heard a counter > that holds up under scrutiny. If all that was required for a proper perl5 distribution was the perl executable itself, I'd have no real argument. It is all of the unneeded (for the *base* distribution) cruft that comes with it that is the problem. Even perl4 has this problem to a lesser extent, but as I read it, this (size/unnecessary bloat problem) is the root of the reluctance to upgrade perl4 to perl5. Central to my argument is that perl4 is no longer viable. Either perl should be removed completely from the base distribution, or it should be upgraded to perl5. Personally, I favour removal, because I'm a purist (a self-admitted fault :-)). This is not to say that perl is not useful - *IT IS* - but that, like many other useful things, it should be an addition to the base system. Even in -current, we don't win very much from the expense of having it (again, with the exception of sgmlfmt). Regards, David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:57:16 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! David Nugent stands accused of saying: > > > > I think that there's a very important line to be drawn between "I > > don't think I need it in the system" and "It should not be in the > > system". > > Agreed. But there's also the distinction between "needed" and > "desired". Certainly *I* regard Perl as an indispensible tool > for what I do. I'm less certain that everyone else would regard > it in the same light, which is why I still don't think it appropriate > for a *base* distribution. It's not a question of whether _everyone_ needs it, but whether a sufficient number of people need it. I think that so far the evidence indicates that this is the case. > > Yes, lots of people want or need it in what they do, but whether it > is *needed* to run/install/build the base system is a different > question. Right now there is some dependance on perl (and using an > outdated and unsupported version), but my worry is that it being > there in the first place is more likely to increase that dependance. If the only criteria for the 'base' system was whether the tool was required to build the system, FreeBSD would me much skinnier. I seriously doubt that anyone would consider that a useful criteria on which to judge something's "membership rights". > Perl5 is huge and is delivered with quite a deal of bloat. Too big > for the small dependancies that currently exist. If we used perl You are still thinking of Perl in the light of its use as support for other things in the system, rather than as a standard service for users. It is this latter case that most strongly argues for Perl in the tree, as with Tcl. > If all that was required for a proper perl5 distribution was the > perl executable itself, I'd have no real argument. It is all of > the unneeded (for the *base* distribution) cruft that comes with > it that is the problem. Even perl4 has this problem to a lesser > extent, but as I read it, this (size/unnecessary bloat problem) > is the root of the reluctance to upgrade perl4 to perl5. If the bloat is truly excessive, then it belongs in a seperate distribution (eg. perl-support) that can be added to the system if required. I seriously doubt whether the alleged 'bloat' would actually be significant in the big picture. I would hope that the growth of the "standard footprint" of FreeBSD would encourage the minimalist faction to actually extract their digits and do something about identifying the "core" of the system and making it a base component. I'm entirely in agreement with the basic principle, but I strongly believe that we need to incorporate mature and ubiquitous tools in as seamless and standard a fashion as possible. > David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Mark Mayo Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:39:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Is FastVid implemented on XFree86? On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Tnks, > Amancio > I was just wondering if you got a reply either way... I'm pretty sure it's not. I noticed, however, that if I run FastVid from a DOS boot, then do a "soft reboot = CTRL+ALT+DEL" the chipset/CPU isn't reset! So I get nice fast video with my 82450GX chipset PPro. Happy. However, on several occasions, it has caused AccleX, xdm, fvwm to core dump -- to the point that xdm wouldn't even start up again :-( If I do a hardware reset everything starts working again. Overall, _my_ system seems quite stable with the FastVid stuff turned on, but it does seem to be a problem some times... - -Mark > > - --------------------------------------------------- | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | | RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark | - --------------------------------------------------- "To iterate is human, to recurse divine." - L. Peter Deutsch ------------------------------ From: Bill Fenner Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:56:32 PST Subject: Re: socket.h You want to cast the sockaddr_in to a sockaddr, as in > if (connect(SocketDescriptor, (struct sockaddr *) &SocketInetAddr, >sizeof(SocketInetAddr)) < 0) You'll notice if you look carefully that "struct sockaddr" and "struct sockaddr_in" are the same size and the "family" and "length" fields overlap. I'd strongly reccommend "Unix Network Programming", by Richard Stevens, as a reference for networking programs like this. Bill ------------------------------ From: Amancio Hasty Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:11:34 -0800 Subject: Re: Is FastVid implemented on XFree86? Silence and on this front. I like your info and I will try it out over here. Is just that I rarely boot dos on this box . Tnks for the info! Amancio >From The Desk Of Mark Mayo : > On Sun, 27 Oct 1996, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > > Tnks, > > Amancio > > > > I was just wondering if you got a reply either way... I'm pretty sure it's > not. I noticed, however, that if I run FastVid from a DOS boot, then do a > "soft reboot = CTRL+ALT+DEL" the chipset/CPU isn't reset! > > So I get nice fast video with my 82450GX chipset PPro. Happy. However, on > several occasions, it has caused AccleX, xdm, fvwm to core dump -- to the > point that xdm wouldn't even start up again :-( If I do a hardware reset > everything starts working again. > > > Overall, _my_ system seems quite stable with the FastVid stuff turned on, > but it does seem to be a problem some times... > > -Mark > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > | Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com | > | RingZero Comp. vinyl.quickweb.com/mark | > --------------------------------------------------- > "To iterate is human, to recurse divine." > - L. Peter Deutsch > ------------------------------ From: Michael Hancock Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:22:27 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > It's not a question of whether _everyone_ needs it, but whether a > sufficient number of people need it. I think that so far the evidence > indicates that this is the case. > I prefer having it in ports or a different distribution so that it can be excluded easier. The people who want it excluded include those who don't care about having perl 5.0 and those who would rather track it and configure it themselves. If it must be put in the base then can we replace perl 4.0 without causing an uproar? Also, can we agree on the options included? I really don't want to see 2 different releases of perl in the base distribution. Perl's size is significant, especially when you consider that it will be in the cvs tree, the installation, and the checked out sources. Double it if you have both 4.x and 5.x. Regards, Mike Hancock ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:20:46 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Michael Hancock stands accused of saying: > On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > > > It's not a question of whether _everyone_ needs it, but whether a > > sufficient number of people need it. I think that so far the evidence > > indicates that this is the case. > > I prefer having it in ports or a different distribution so that it can be > excluded easier. The people who want it excluded include those who don't > care about having perl 5.0 and those who would rather track it > and configure it themselves. If it's to be useful in the base system, there needs to be a segregation between the 'runtime' configuration and the 'development' configuration then. This is one for the Perl advocates to settle. > If it must be put in the base then can we replace perl 4.0 without causing > an uproar? Also, can we agree on the options included? I think that replacing Perl 4 would be trivial; the dependant components of the base system are known to work with perl5, and the general opinion is that little is significantly different. > Perl's size is significant, especially when you consider that it will be > in the cvs tree, the installation, and the checked out sources. Double it > if you have both 4.x and 5.x. There is no way that Perl 4 would be retained. Perl's size is not a real issue; people just need stop thinking that 5M is "big" 8) > Mike Hancock - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: "Jeffery T. White" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:32:39 -0800 Subject: Re: Ipx to ip routing > And we want to eliminate the need for so many ip addresses so that we > can get rid of all the ip address conflicts that we can't seem to trace > down. Unless you have more machines than IP numbers DHCP really is a pretty good solution. I set it up at work and it was great. Not only could you assign IP address that way but you can distribute default gateway, DNS, netmask and all kinds of other IP config data from the DHCP server. That way when you maybe change a name server or something you only have to update it in one place. We used the Windoze NT DHCP Service so I don't know first hand how the BSD ones are but I can only assume they are as good or better. The only down side of switching to DHCP is you have to reconfigure all the existing machines pretty much at once since your addresses are probably all over right now and the DHCP server will assign them sequentially from the blocks you allocate. Of course if users still insist on entering an address that will mess things up. Not as bad as before though because you will have the DHCP data from which you can get a list of all the machines with _legal_ addresses. The missing machines either haven't been turned on within the expiration period or are owned by users who require their little fingers to be broken :-)... | Jeffery T. White | email: zellion@cyberwind.com | | Cyberwind, The wind knows... | http://www.cyberwind.com ------------------------------ From: "Jon Morgan" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:02:14 -0800 Subject: vx driver problems I found problems in if_vx.c where the driver handles ifconfig link[012] flags. The driver is ANDing the index into the connector_table rather than the actual bit value out of the table. Here's the code for 2.1.6-RELEASE that fixes the problem: *** if_vx.c.orig Wed Nov 20 20:07:59 1996 - --- if_vx.c Wed Nov 20 21:45:35 1996 *************** *** 355,365 **** * (if present on card or AUI if not). */ /* Set the xcvr. */ ! if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK0 && sc->vx_connectors & CONNECTOR_AUI) { i = CONNECTOR_AUI; ! } else if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK1 && sc->vx_connectors & CONNECTOR_BNC) { i = CONNECTOR_BNC; ! } else if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK2 && sc->vx_connectors & CONNECTOR_UTP) { i = CONNECTOR_UTP; } else { i = sc->vx_connector; - --- 355,365 ---- * (if present on card or AUI if not). */ /* Set the xcvr. */ ! if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK0 && sc->vx_connectors & connector_table[CONNECTOR_AUI].bit) { i = CONNECTOR_AUI; ! } else if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK1 && sc->vx_connectors & connector_table[CONNECTOR_BNC].bit) { i = CONNECTOR_BNC; ! } else if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK2 && sc->vx_connectors & connector_table[CONNECTOR_UTP].bit) { i = CONNECTOR_UTP; } else { i = sc->vx_connector; and here's the equivalent code for 3.0-CURRENT (I havn't tested this, but it should be the same): *** if_vx.c.orig Wed Nov 20 20:07:59 1996 - --- if_vx.c Wed Nov 20 21:45:35 1996 *************** *** 355,365 **** * (if present on card or AUI if not). */ /* Set the xcvr. */ ! if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK0 && sc->vx_connectors & CONNECTOR_AUI) { i = CONNECTOR_AUI; ! } else if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK1 && sc->vx_connectors & CONNECTOR_BNC) { i = CONNECTOR_BNC; ! } else if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK2 && sc->vx_connectors & CONNECTOR_UTP) { i = CONNECTOR_UTP; } else { i = sc->vx_connector; - --- 355,365 ---- * (if present on card or AUI if not). */ /* Set the xcvr. */ ! if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK0 && sc->vx_connectors & connector_table[CONNECTOR_AUI].bit) { i = CONNECTOR_AUI; ! } else if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK1 && sc->vx_connectors & connector_table[CONNECTOR_BNC].bit) { i = CONNECTOR_BNC; ! } else if(ifp->if_flags & IFF_LINK2 && sc->vx_connectors & connector_table[CONNECTOR_UTP].bit) { i = CONNECTOR_UTP; } else { i = sc->vx_connector; ------------------------------ From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:17:08 -0800 Subject: Re: WordPerfect 7.0 for FreeBSD :-) > That's the 3th time that I talk with guy at Corel about WP 7.0. First, please don't spam so many lists at once - that's just bad manners and not encouraged at all. Thanks. Second, what you should tell Coral to do is send us a copy of the Linux version and we'll try to certify it for use under FreeBSD. I don't think that Coral should be pushed to do a FreeBSD version until we have a better idea of the size of our market since pushing them to do a port and then seeing it sell badly would be worse than no port at all. It would only screw us for a second chance. I would be happy if vendors with Linux versions of their products would give us a chance at certifying it under the emulator and, if it works, listing it as supported under FreeBSD as well (we will also have to improve our Linux library support, but that would be a natural side-effect of the certification process also). Jordan ------------------------------ From: nik@blueberry.co.uk (Nik Clayton) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:08:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Michael Smith writes: > I'm entirely in agreement with the basic principle, but I strongly > believe that we need to incorporate mature and ubiquitous tools in > as seamless and standard a fashion as possible. Uh, /usr/ports? pkg_add? As far as I can see, FreeBSD currently has a few admin scripts written in Perl (which someone in this thread has already volunteered to re-write in C). And that's about the extent of it's requirement at the moment. If J. Random User wants to write a nifty adduser script (or whatever) in Perl, then great. Even better, encourage them to submit it as a port with a dependency on a particular Perl port. Or punt Perl (and other niceties) into a 'recommended' distribution (or something) and have the install say something like If you're new to Unix then you may want to look at the 'recommended-software' distribution. This is a collection of software pre-compiled that you will probably find immediately useful. Perl 5.00x Apache 1.1.1 Elm (or Pine, or whatever) Adduser [and so on] If you're more skilled with Unix, you may want to compile these programs yourself, using the 'ports' system. And if you really know what you're doing, you're probably already running 'ncftp ftp.perl.com/perl/latest.tar.gz' over in another virtual terminal. And then you could just have a single port that consists of just a man page and a bunch of dependencies on the other ports (as listed above). This man page describes the contents of the 'recommended' distribution, with pointers on how to get more information about it. Recommended(1) FreeBSD Reference Manual Recommended(1) NAME /usr/bin/perl - The Perl programming language /usr/libexec/apache - The Apache web server /usr/sbin/adduser - An easy way to add new users to the system . . . DESCRIPTION Perl Larry Wall's ubiquitous programming language. Great for scripts that handle lots of text, and often used in CGI programs for web pages. % man perl for more information. Apache Probably the best known free web server, with performance to match the best of the commercial servers. See the documentation in /usr/local/share/apache/doc. Adduser An interactive script for adding new users to the system. Written in Perl. Reading the script can be useful as an inkling to the power of Perl. % man adduser for more information. . . . and so on. Create a ports/recommended (or something) category into which stable versions of software go. ports/lang/perl might be at version 5.4 (fictitious example) but ports/recommended/perl stays at version 5.003 (or whatever) until everything else that depends on perl in the 'recommended' category has been re-written to work with the new version (assuming any re-writing is necessary). Thoughts. N - -- - --+=[ Blueberry Hill Blueberry New Media ]=+-- - --+=[ http://www.blueberry.co.uk/ 1/9 Chelsea Harbour Design Centre, ]=+-- - --+=[ WebMaster@blueberry.co.uk London, England, SW10 0XE ]=+-- - --+=[ Ten-Thousand-Dimensional Web in Heaven and Net on Earth ]ENTP ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:47:24 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Nik Clayton stands accused of saying: > Michael Smith writes: > > I'm entirely in agreement with the basic principle, but I strongly > > believe that we need to incorporate mature and ubiquitous tools in > > as seamless and standard a fashion as possible. > > Uh, /usr/ports? pkg_add? *snort* The ports/packages collection is fine as far as it goes, but you are still failing to understand what I'm on about. I'm talking about a _basic_system_service_, like the compiler or sendmail. > As far as I can see, FreeBSD currently has a few admin scripts written in > Perl (which someone in this thread has already volunteered to re-write > in C). And that's about the extent of it's requirement at the moment. What is this blinkered mentality that seems to think that the only purpose of a system component is to perpetuate the system? Is everyone disappearing inwards through their own navels? > If J. Random User wants to write a nifty adduser script (or whatever) in > Perl, then great. Even better, encourage them to submit it as a port > with a dependency on a particular Perl port. Great. Have you been watching the "CVSup is evil because it requires the monster Modula-3" thread resurfacing every few weeks? Do you have any idea how unwieldy the ports collection is if you don't have a (n outdated) copy handy on CDrom? I try to stay reasonably current at work, but got _seriously_ bitten this week with a rush to get a couple of notebook systems out the door for on-the-road demo systems; it's very hard to explain to an anxious sales jock that you have to download a pile of "oops just changed" distfiles from the other side of the planet so that they can deal with whatever printer the customer might have, or whatever. > Or punt Perl (and other niceties) into a 'recommended' distribution (or > something) and have the install say something like Having a "core binaries" distribution, which contained just enought to boot the system and operate the basic system services, and then putting everything else in the "basic system services" bundle (compiler, includes, interpreters, etc) would make sense. Drawing arbitrary lines based on the phase of the moon just doesn't cut it. If you like, I am respectfully offering the gauntlet to the anti-bloatists, and suggesting that they nominate what they feel to be the core of the system, and then do something about it. > If you're new to Unix then you may want to look at the > 'recommended-software' distribution. This is a collection of > software pre-compiled that you will probably find immediately > useful. Completely the wrong way around. The _advanced_ user should be offered the opportunity to _not_ install these things. The "default installation" should provide all the services that can be reasonably and _manageably_ be provided. (This is a key requirement, and is why I am trying to publically finger people to maintain the proposed Perl.) We _do_ need to address the "kitchen sink" issue, and we need a solution to handle _both_ the 'with' and 'without' cases. > And if you really know what you're doing, you're probably already > running 'ncftp ftp.perl.com/perl/latest.tar.gz' over in another > virtual terminal. No. What you want is to be able to say "I can write my Excellent New Application in Perl and know that it can be installed on any 'normally' configured FreeBSD system without significant user grief." What we're talking about is making it _easier_ to work with FreeBSD from positions other than the arrogant myopic power-user's point of view. > This man page describes the contents of the 'recommended' distribution, > with pointers on how to get more information about it. Yuck. Maybe a shellscript (installed when the "core binaries" are) that writes a message to stderr (and maybe calls 'logger' too) linked in place of all the binaries containd in the "basic system services" distribution, observing that said distribution is required. > Create a ports/recommended (or something) category into which stable versions > of software go. ports/lang/perl might be at version 5.4 (fictitious example) > but ports/recommended/perl stays at version 5.003 (or whatever) until > everything else that depends on perl in the 'recommended' category has been > re-written to work with the new version (assuming any re-writing is > necessary). Aside from a camouflaged 'anti-bloat' stance, you're not actually saying much new. There's nothing significantly different from the 'contrib' model there, except that it's extra work to install. > Thoughts. Appreciated, even if I don't agree with you. - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: sja@tekla.fi (Sakari Jalovaara) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:57:58 +0200 Subject: Re: Help identifying a compressed file > Can anybody recognize this fileformat ? > > It's some kind of MS/DOS compressed file, but I don't know what program > were used to compress it :-( > >00000000 53 5a 44 44 88 f0 27 33 41 00 88 1c 03 00 ff 3f |SZDD..'3A......?| >00000010 5f 03 00 c3 35 00 00 7d ff f8 f0 88 1c 03 00 b3 |_...5..}........| Do an altavista search on the magic number "SZDD". ---------^^^^^ You'll find a bunch of binary files like the one you have. Look for READMEs near them. You are bound to find one that tells how to unpack. ++sja ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1663 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 15:58:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09772 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:58:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09767 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA14279; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:51:18 -0800 (PST) To: Joe Greco cc: peter@taronga.com, bmk@fta.com, brantk@atlas.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:34:25 CST." <199611262234.QAA17750@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:51:18 -0800 Message-ID: <14277.849052278@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > CONFIGURATION of packages is a problem as well. I am not sure that it > is wise to try to solve both problems with the same tool, but am certainly > willing to discuss it if you believe that it is (I will tell you now: I have > a preconceived notion that it is not a good idea). Well, I think we are all talking about much the same thing here, simply with different jargon, so the ultimate design will probably come down more to what the initial proof-of-concept looks like at this stage than any long thread which debates the more etherial concepts of configuration management. However, just in closing, I'd like to also note that we should stay focused on the fact that this is *not* being designed for hackers, this is being designed for end-users, and the end users have become conditioned by Windows & Macintosh machines to think in terms of services rather than MTAs or packages or even UNIX subsystems. Ultimately, the user doesn't want to think about "sendmail" or "qmail", they want to think about "small mail agent" or "big mail agent" (just to draw a very simplistic point of division - I'd expect the real dividing line to be somewhat more complex). They don't want to know about lpr and optional filters, they want to say "I have a printer, here's what kind it is, do the rest please!" This is what makes me think that any framework will end up drawing lines around things grouped by function, not by placement. The traditional UNIX die-hards will also never accept a complete decoupling of things like sendmail, so it's probably also not practical to hope that you can "packagify" everything at the actual implementation level - there will be a significant amount of transparent bridge work going on in any real-life system which gets developed. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 16:54:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA13208 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from covina.lightside.com (covina.lightside.com [207.67.176.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13197 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jehamby@localhost) by covina.lightside.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA00430 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:54:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:54:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jake Hamby To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Is FreeBSD a good baseline for RPC source? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'd like to port RPC over to BeOS for purposes of building NFS and other RPC services on it. I know the original Sun RPC source code is available on UUnet, but I'd like to know if FreeBSD's version has any notable bug fixes or performance enhancements over the Sun reference version. Similarly, would NetBSD, OpenBSD, or Linux provide any advantages or disadvantages as a baseline source code over FreeBSD or Sun's version? Thanks in advance! Feel free to reply to me privately if you don't feel this is an appropriate topic for the general FreeBSD hackers list. -- Jake From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 16:55:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA13302 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA13263 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA26124; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:39:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199611270039.RAA26124@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. To: guido@gvr.win.tue.nl (Guido van Rooij) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:39:01 -0700 (MST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, kjk1@ukc.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <199611262049.VAA18493@gvr.win.tue.nl> from "Guido van Rooij" at Nov 26, 96 09:49:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Altough I am speculating here, I think this has to do with the fact that > > > I do not have msdosfs compiled in with the kernel. After installing a > > > different kernel, I asked the system to modload msdosfs, with the above > > > result. > > > > Running a kernel with the wrong LKMs is known to cause you grey hairs. > > I'm often falling into this trap, but the other way around: by > > rebooting a new kernel without rebuilding and reinstalling the LKMs > > first. > > Can't we built in some way of detecting that an lkm is for the wrong kernel? > If things are so dependant, why not take the uname -a string as an > identifier.... How about moving the relocator and the symbol space into kmem, like I just suggested? Then it would "just work", always, with no more version mismatches (unless you lie about the size of struct proc or something, and it should be an abstract type anyway). Worse comes to worse, you put a version number in the header (I made provision for one in the code anyway) and you bump it when you change the "kernel consumer" interface (ie: size of proc struct, etc.). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 16:59:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA13555 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from rmsq.com (rmsq.com [204.133.95.70]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA13535; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from baldrick@localhost) by rmsq.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id SAA00848; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:03:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:03:09 -0700 (MST) From: Just Baldrick Message-Id: <199611270103.SAA00848@rmsq.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: VoxWare Sound Driver Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, Does anyone know where you can FTP the VoxWare sound drivers from? We currently have VoxWare Sound Driver:3.0-beta-950506 (Sun Feb 5 14:38:12 EST 1995 freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com) which seems a little out of date. Thanks, Geoff Martindale (FreeBSD 2.1.5 and SoundBlaster 16) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 17:03:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13930 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexgen.HiWAAY.net (max7-88.HiWAAY.net [206.104.17.88]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13925 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by nexgen.HiWAAY.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id TAA29163; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:01:34 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.5-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199611261805.LAA25327@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:28:25 -0600 (CST) Organization: Amateur Radio N4HHE, Madison, AL. From: David Kelly To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb d Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 17:05:56 Terry Lambert wrote: >>> >I think DigiKey. >> >> Looked. Haven't called. Also checked the Mouser catalog. Would you >> believe neither lists *any* standard HD/Floppy power connectors? > >That's because they are keyed Molex connectors, and aren't called >"HD/Floppy power connectors". Doesn't matter what they are called, neither DigiKey nor Mouser has anything that *looks* like 'em in their catalogs. Others have offered the exact Molex part number for what I describe. I have the Molex catalog myself. But for little 10 or 20 piece acquisitions its much easier to call DigiKey and use a charge card than to bug my local distributor(s) for samples. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 18:16:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA17389 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA17383 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id MAA05491; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:40:01 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611270210.MAA05491@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-Reply-To: <13469.849034313@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 26, 96 10:51:53 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:39:59 +1030 (CST) Cc: peter@taronga.com, bmk@fta.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > Not in this particular set of examples, no, but understand that > services have many more options *other* than security which you'd also > eventually want to fold into the same mechanism. To contrive more examples: ... > All of which might be reasonable things to want if you were intending > to write a more robust front-end for a variety of service options. > > Think "big picture", guys. :-) I've been trying to put a useful "big picture" model for this sort of thing together for a while now, as a related issue for the monster config thing we've talked about. The tidiest way of handling this I've seen goes something like this : The "mailer" object, when installed, provides a "mailer-configuration" item to the "network" configuration class, which provides facilities for configuring the mailer. It also provides a "mailer-endisable" function to the "security" class. This function knows how to en/disable the "mailer" in such a fashion that the "mailer-configuration" object can intelligently deal with it. It's not a huge ask, it's just more work that I can't do because I haven't got the basic tools yet. > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 18:31:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA18622 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18608 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id TAA05301; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:30:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.ampr.ab.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA05954; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:24:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:24:03 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@alive.ampr.ab.ca To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail (Re: non-root users binding to ports < 1024 (was: Re: BoS: Exploit for sendmail smtpd bug (ver. 8.7-8.8.2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ...and one thing that many people don't consider is that having login setuid root can make accounting based on wtmp files (and anything based on utmp files) inaccurate. eg. user@host$ w 6:66PM up 8 days, 6:66, 2 users, load averages: 6.66, 6.66, 6.66 USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT user p0 host 7:17PM - w user@host$ sh -c login login: user2 Password: user2@host$ exit user@host$ w 6:66PM up 8 days, 6:66, 2 users, load averages: 6.66, 6.66, 6.66 USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT user2 p0 - 7:17PM - w user@host$ last -2 user2 ttyp0 Tue Nov 26 19:18 still logged in user ttyp0 host Tue Nov 26 19:17 - 19:18 (00:01) On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: > > > On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > [ ... sendmail ... ] > > > > > It is also the most used/public suid program in the world, subject to > > > the most scrutinity (and attack). > > > > login? > > Came up a couple of months ago. login only needs to be suid root so > someone can log in again by executing 'login' rather than logging out, or > logging back in. It also is a candidate for "set me suid root only if > needed." > > Danny > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 18:48:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA19702 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:48:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA19697 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id SAA14715 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id NAA05706; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:13:34 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199611270243.NAA05706@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-Reply-To: <199611261934.LAA02956@dirac.phys.washington.edu> from "William R. Somsky" at "Nov 26, 96 11:34:42 am" To: somsky@dirac.phys.washington.edu (William R. Somsky) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:13:33 +1030 (CST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk William R. Somsky stands accused of saying: > > I guess the main point I'd like to suggest is that perhaps the way to go > is with a general tool that contains all the muscle for doing these things > and individual per-package/utility/service control files which contain all > the brains for what to do. Yup, you're definitely walking down the same path that I've been along. > So, can anybody get anything out of this -- other than severe nausia? Depends. If someone likes the idea enough, they might see their way to paying my bills a few days a week so that I can actually make something happen with it. 8( 8( Seriously, this is my "current" project, although it has become somewhat derailed with related metawork (see below). The model is somewhat larger and more complex than you've described, but you've got yer meaty paws on the basics 8) > William R. Somsky somsky@phys.washington.edu { For anyone who might be wondering, the current holdup is in writing a processing tool which takes a basic specification of a C-callable library and produces wrapper functions to call the library from Tcl without modification. If someone else has done this already, I'd be more than happy to use their code, presuming it works 8) This is a prerequisite for calling things like libdisk from a generic configuration tool without having to write a new version of libdisk, etc. } -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 18:53:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA19927 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA19921 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au ([203.2.144.5]) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA12068 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:54:04 -0800 Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA03738; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:48:32 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:48:31 +1100 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Joe Greco Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-Reply-To: <199611261642.KAA17097@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here is another way of achieving a similar end, which is already half implemented. On Sys-V based systems (well, Irix, at least, is where I saw it), and now in FreeBSD:/usr/local/rc.d/* the daemon startup files are run as 'xntpd start'. This could be extended to 'pkg command', where pkg={sendmail|qmail|apache|...} and command={start|stop|enable|disable}. Just a thought for something flexible and extensible. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 19:09:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20681 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20675 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA07050; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:05:04 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Smith cc: peter@taronga.com, bmk@fta.com, jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, brantk@atlas.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:39:59 +1030." <199611270210.MAA05491@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:05:04 -0800 Message-ID: <7048.849063904@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The "mailer" object, when installed, provides a "mailer-configuration" item > to the "network" configuration class, which provides facilities for > configuring the mailer. It also provides a "mailer-endisable" function > to the "security" class. This function knows how to en/disable the > "mailer" in such a fashion that the "mailer-configuration" object can > intelligently deal with it. That sounds pretty neat! I like this model as it allows things to remain organized in a consistent framework without sacrificing extensibility of the model as a whole. Yes, definitely! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 19:58:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA22922 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22866 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from misery.sdf.com ([204.244.213.33]) by misery.sdf.com with SMTP id <1344-9453>; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:55:44 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:55:39 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Samplonius To: Joe Greco cc: David Kelly , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb d In-Reply-To: <199611261825.MAA17332@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > One thing to check is to see if you have a statically-compiled tar and > gzip. This is only important if you are chroot'ed, but it could be a > significant issue, since ls is static by default, while both tar and > gzip aren't. I used to think that too, but /usr/bin/tar and /usr/bin/gzip are both statically linked. I checked with "file" on a 2.1.5-stable system. Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 20:08:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA23511 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:08:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23394 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id WAA18185; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:05:26 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611270405.WAA18185@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:05:26 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, peter@taronga.com, bmk@fta.com, brantk@atlas.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <14277.849052278@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 26, 96 03:51:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > CONFIGURATION of packages is a problem as well. I am not sure that it > > is wise to try to solve both problems with the same tool, but am certainly > > willing to discuss it if you believe that it is (I will tell you now: I have > > a preconceived notion that it is not a good idea). > > Well, I think we are all talking about much the same thing here, > simply with different jargon, so the ultimate design will probably > come down more to what the initial proof-of-concept looks like at this > stage than any long thread which debates the more etherial concepts of > configuration management. > > However, just in closing, I'd like to also note that we should stay > focused on the fact that this is *not* being designed for hackers, > this is being designed for end-users, and the end users have become > conditioned by Windows & Macintosh machines to think in terms of > services rather than MTAs or packages or even UNIX subsystems. > Ultimately, the user doesn't want to think about "sendmail" or > "qmail", they want to think about "small mail agent" or "big mail > agent" (just to draw a very simplistic point of division - I'd expect > the real dividing line to be somewhat more complex). They don't want > to know about lpr and optional filters, they want to say "I have a > printer, here's what kind it is, do the rest please!" > > This is what makes me think that any framework will end up drawing > lines around things grouped by function, not by placement. > > The traditional UNIX die-hards will also never accept a complete > decoupling of things like sendmail, so it's probably also not > practical to hope that you can "packagify" everything at the actual > implementation level - there will be a significant amount of > transparent bridge work going on in any real-life system which gets > developed. I suspect this is partially true. Nobody is preventing the tool(s) being discussed from being used as building blocks for a grand scheme of "Windoze style system management" - it is just that it is very hard to build a complex bridge unless you have the concept of steel beams and rivets available to you, etc. However, you are also going to find that there are those of us who are definitely "UNIX die-hards", but we just do not have the time in a day to do all the things we would like to. Tools help. And they help a lot. Given a framework, it would be twice as easy to track the latest Sendmail or BIND release because it would simply mean building a port, without excessive "extra" effort. I am sure you agree that the "make; make install" required by a port is a LOT easier than the procedure to manually download, untar, configure, compile, maybe tweak and recompile, and then install a software package such as Sendmail. And if I had an easy method to disable unnecessary setuid programs (granted it can be done by hand, it is just more time) I might tend to do it on more boxes. I am very much into making my own life easier when I can... if it was not for the ports system, I probably would not install many of the "standard add-on" ports that I do to every box I set up. The ports system does not give me any new capability that I did not have before, but it makes it SO EASY. :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 20:11:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA23659 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23550 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:09:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sage.fsl.noaa.gov (sage.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.42]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA13794 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:08:24 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <329BBEB8.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:08:24 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Destroy Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I realize that replacing sendmail and hanging your machine with ScrollLock is all very interesting, but is anyone looking at getting rid of these annoying messages from Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com? -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 20:14:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA23865 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23853 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:14:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id WAA18198; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:12:59 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611270412.WAA18198@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Holy Moley Batman... I love ccd. and BTW, if you need 4gb d To: tom@sdf.com (Tom Samplonius) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:12:59 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Tom Samplonius" at Nov 26, 96 07:55:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > > One thing to check is to see if you have a statically-compiled tar and > > gzip. This is only important if you are chroot'ed, but it could be a > > significant issue, since ls is static by default, while both tar and > > gzip aren't. Wait a minute, here, I did NOT write THAT! > I used to think that too, but /usr/bin/tar and /usr/bin/gzip are both > statically linked. I checked with "file" on a 2.1.5-stable system. Yes, this is, I believe, true. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 20:17:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA24096 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA24091 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id WAA18221; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:16:13 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611270416.WAA18221@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail To: danny@panda.hilink.com.au (Daniel O'Callaghan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:16:13 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Daniel O'Callaghan" at Nov 27, 96 01:48:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Here is another way of achieving a similar end, which is already half > implemented. > > On Sys-V based systems (well, Irix, at least, is where I saw it), and > now in FreeBSD:/usr/local/rc.d/* the daemon startup files are run > as 'xntpd start'. > > This could be extended to > > 'pkg command', where > > pkg={sendmail|qmail|apache|...} > > and > > command={start|stop|enable|disable}. > > Just a thought for something flexible and extensible. That's more or less what we are discussing, the end result is the same. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 20:55:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26411 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26403 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0vSc1n-0008uOC; Tue, 26 Nov 96 20:55 PST Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA24295; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:37:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611270437.UAA24295@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert Cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh), kegrotla@korrnet.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:37:02 -0800 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:25:10 -0700 (MST) Terry Lambert wrote: > I have *some* code, mostly from Jeffrey Hsu and NetBSD, for the DEC > Alpha. Jeffrey did the port of the NetBSD code, with CGD, to the > PPC platform. I have FreeBSD's timer code, console code, interrupt > code, and a non-working VM ported over to the Alpha. The loaner > machines Jeffrey and I had were recalled. The port lives on mag > tape. So, to correct what you just said: - Jeff Hsu did some NetBSD/alpha work; the initial AXPpci support. - Wolfgang Solfrank is the author of NetBSD/powerpc. > I have an HP 300 (well, not strictly true; it's a 68040) that I bought > to hack on a port for the 680x0. I have not done anything with it > because NetBSD will not load (it can't disklabel a SCSI disk). Let's not be misleading. There's a bug in the standalone program that writes miniroots to disk. NetBSD/hp300 can disklabel SCSI disks. You do have other options for installing NetBSD on your hp300, like network booting. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 20:58:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26571 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26555 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id WAA18355; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:57:29 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611270457.WAA18355@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Destroy Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:57:28 -0600 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <329BBEB8.167EB0E7@fsl.noaa.gov> from "Sean Kelly" at Nov 26, 96 09:08:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I realize that replacing sendmail and hanging your machine with > ScrollLock is all very interesting, but is anyone looking at getting rid > of these annoying messages from > Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com? In general the author of Lotus Mail Exchange, and the Postmaster at Compuserve both deserve to get mail bombed with documentation indicating that it is not proper to parse the text of a message to derive an address to return errors to (that is the function of the envelope). Since most DOS weenie programmers writing these things are too small minded to read AND understand the documentation, though... I remember the battle I had with a lady who insisted that she used some other address for administrative matters, and that I was out of my mind when I insisted that she needed to have a "Postmaster" address. People like these should have their Internet connectivity revoked until they display a minimal level of cluefulness. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 21:14:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA27212 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from tahoma.cwu.edu (skynyrd@tahoma.cwu.edu [198.104.65.220]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA27194 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by tahoma.cwu.edu; id AA30140; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:13:44 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:13:44 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Timmons To: Jaye Mathisen Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Is there a CVSUP mirror kit? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'd be interested in this too; however it should be the rare case that you would have to load poor freefall with simultaneous parallel updates. If you're not tracking the CVS tree on all of your nodes (rather, a specific tag like RELENG_2_2) you can use cvs over rsh, as in: cvs -d user@cvshost.my.domain/mypath/FreeBSD-CVS [command] (eg command: "update -d -P -rRELENG_2_2") Where user has read/write priv to the cvs repository for locking purposes. I use this on top of ssh via the CVS_RSH environment variable. Combined with ssh compression, this works nicely over my 28.8 dialup. If you need full CVS trees on all hosts, then in a LAN environment, rdist is a possibility so long as you are not CVSuping at the same time. (eg distfile) HOSTS = ( client.my.domain ) FILES = ( /mypath/FreeBSD-CVS ) ${FILES} -> ${HOSTS} install -R ; If you want to keep up CVS tree at the end of a 28.8 modem without bothering freefall... then a CVSUP mirror kit would come in real handy :) Right now I am using magtape ;) Let me tell you that sup looks like CVSup when compared to RDIST over 28.8 after the tag-team comes through! I think that it might not be brain salad surgery to do this anyways, but it would be nice if John "the thanks I get for writing such a neat tool :)" Polstra would put something out for the cvs challenged like I [shameless hint]. -Chris On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Jaye Mathisen wrote: > > > I would like to use my own facilities to keep my trees sync'd up with a > master server at my facility, rather than bogging down the net with 3 > parallel updates. > > Does somebody have something like this packaged up already? > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 21:16:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA27314 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from netrover.com (ottawa14.netrover.com [205.209.19.23]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA27309 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:16:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brianc@localhost) by netrover.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) id AAA05205; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:15:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:15:32 -0500 From: brianc@netrover.com (Brian Campbell) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: libc X-Mailer: Mutt 0.51 Mime-Version: 1.0 Reply-to: brianc@pobox.com Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There have been a number of people who've noticed it's not a good idea to link libc.3 and libresolv.2 together in an application. irc, for example either just faults or fails to resolve any addresses. I never saw anyone reply with reasons why this was so. Further, it appears that someone (a new RFC? what number?) decided, in libc.so.3, that underscores, slashes and who-knows-what-else are invalid characters in DNS. So a lot of time gets wasted (on traceroute or netstat) resolving names that the resolver code in libc will refuse to display. Has anyone bothered to tell sprintlink or mci of this "change"? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 22:12:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA29892 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from fyeung5.netific.com (netific.vip.best.com [205.149.182.145]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA29800 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:11:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from fyeung8.netific.com (fyeung8.netific.com [204.238.125.8]) by fyeung5.netific.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA04495 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:10:15 -0800 Received: by fyeung8.netific.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA10589; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:18:35 -0800 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:18:35 -0800 From: fyeung@fyeung8.netific.com (Francis Yeung) Message-Id: <9611270618.AA10589@fyeung8.netific.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: port of Linux's RCFSERVICE X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, Does FreeBSD have a port of the Linux's bind-4.9.3+RCFSERVICE which is also known as the "smart" bind ? Thanks. Francis From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Nov 26 22:15:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA00116 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:15:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA00101 for ; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:15:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA07519; Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:13:45 -0800 (PST) To: Joe Greco cc: peter@taronga.com, bmk@fta.com, brantk@atlas.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Replacing sendmail In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:05:26 CST." <199611270405.WAA18185@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:13:45 -0800 Message-ID: <7517.849075225@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > However, you are also going to find that there are those of us who > are definitely "UNIX die-hards", but we just do not have the time in a day > to do all the things we would like to. Tools help. And they help a > lot. Oh, no argument at all there - why do you think I came up with the ports collection in the first place? :-) It was really aimed primarily at admins, like myself, who didn't want to have to remember all the details for building the dozens of tools they typically brought onto every new box. I started with a shell makefile for emacs, then bash, then I moved the common elements into a .mk file, then, well, the rest is history. :-) I'm all for making life easier, I just want to make sure that whatever we come up with can eventually be built into something as comprehensive as the ports collection has become under Satoshi's expert tutilage. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 02:12:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA08633 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA08625 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:08:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pancake.remcomp.fr (root@pancake.remcomp.fr [194.51.30.247]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id CAA15588 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from zapata.omnix.fr.org (zapata [128.127.10.1]) by zapata.omnix.fr.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA06984 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:52:04 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:52:03 +0100 (MET) From: "didier@omnix.fr.org" Reply-To: "didier@omnix.fr.org" To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Seagate ST34371W drives Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk do you have any experience with these drives ? do you know if they are ok with FreeBSD 2.1.5R thanks for your help -- Didier Derny didier@omnix.fr.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 02:22:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA09459 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA09441 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:22:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA17979 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:56:50 -0800 Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA11128; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:50:46 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA02981; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:00:24 +0100 From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199611270900.KAA02981@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: Objdump for 2.1.5 or 2.1.6? In-Reply-To: <199611261825.NAA18509@tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com> from Robert Withrow at "Nov 26, 96 01:25:08 pm" To: bwithrow@baynetworks.com (Robert Withrow) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:00:23 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Has anyone ported the binutils objdump program to 2.1.5 or 2.1.6? > > I can get it to build but it doesn't know anything about the .o > files built on 2.1.5. > > bash$ ./objdump --reloc objdump.o > ./objdump: objdump.o: File format not recognized Look into freefall/incoming. I've put up there some binutils binaries (compiled fro 2.2-current) but thet oughta work under 2.1.6 as well. (it's objdump or objcopy..something - can't look it up due to slow international links). > > -- > Robert Withrow -- (+1 508 436 8256) > BWithrow@BayNetworks.com > > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 02:24:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA09846 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA09820 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 02:23:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA07923 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:49:16 -0800 Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA21525 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:45:40 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:45:40 +0100 (MET) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Bob Bishop wrote: > >> Msdosfs is seriously broken. [...] > > > >We should probably just remove it entirely for now.[...] > > > >Any strong votes to the contrary? I don't think there's anything > >about the current msdosfs we want to keep anyway. > > > > Jordan > > Er, hangonaminute... I rely heavily on it for dealing with dos-format > floppies, and I suspect I'm not alone. > YES!!! You're not alone. I suspect for *most* of users the ability to transfer data to/from MSDOS partitions/floppies is crucial. As for me, as much as I love FreeBSD, I would seriously consider changing it to Linux, if it were unable to deal with msdosfs. Perhaps the additional effort spent for making this fs highly optional (read: almost unavailable for average user) could be spent the other way, namely making this fs support better. One additional remark and I'm thru: IMHO, what makes Linux so popular is (among others) its compatibility with most widely used standards such as ATAPI, MSDOSfs, available drivers and packages and so on ... Average (==non-hacking) users make decisions basing on these factors, and not the stability of the OS. Now, flame me, if you like :-) I'm probably exaggerating, but doesn't it "ring a bell" ? Andy. PS. I'm a FreeBSD fan, so don't take me wrong. +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Andrzej Bialecki _) _) _)_) _)_)_) _) _) --------------------------------------- _)_) _) _) _) _)_) _)_) Research and Academic Network in Poland _) _)_) _)_)_)_) _) _) _) Bartycka 18, 00-716 Warsaw, Poland _) _) _) _) _)_)_) _) _) +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 03:25:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA13108 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:25:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA12936 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.2/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA02508 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:25:19 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:25:18 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: FreeBSD-hackers Subject: Netstat broken or two many bytes? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So is the statistics broken (this is 2.1.5-RELEASE) or is something else amiss in my computer? I really don't like these negative inbytes... And it has been up for only about a month (uptime 29 days + something). If it is just the statistics, could we make the wrap-around value bigger (use 64 bity numbers for example)? Name Mtu Network Address Ipkts Ierrs Ibytes Opkts Oerrs Obytes Coll ed0 1500 00.c0.6c.55.50.00 12844801 577 -1765725048 19673776 0 1959771210 5908886 ed0 1500 172.17.1/24 localhost 12844801 577 -1765725048 19673776 0 1959771210 5908886 lp0* 1500 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 lo0 16384 130938 0 8103328 130938 0 8103328 0 lo0 16384 your-net localhost 130938 0 8103328 130938 0 8103328 0 sl0* 552 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 tun0* 1500 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Sander PS. I don't like the collissions aswell. But I can't do anything about that on the moment From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 03:51:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA14315 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:51:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from pdx1.world.net (pdx1.world.net [192.243.32.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA14310 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by pdx1.world.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA26578; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from proff@localhost) by suburbia.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) id WAA03585; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:50:16 +1100 (EST) From: Julian Assange Message-Id: <199611271150.WAA03585@suburbia.net> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: from Andrzej Bialecki at "Nov 27, 96 08:45:40 am" To: abial@korin.warman.org.pl (Andrzej Bialecki) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:50:16 +1100 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > YES!!! You're not alone. I suspect for *most* of users the ability to > transfer data to/from MSDOS partitions/floppies is crucial. As for me, as > much as I love FreeBSD, I would seriously consider changing it to Linux, > if it were unable to deal with msdosfs. The floppies isn't an issue. You can use the m* utils for this without msdosfs - though I agree data sharing from paritions is very important. Proff From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 05:07:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA18692 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA18683 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:07:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sol1.gud.siemens.co.at (root@[10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA25565 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:06:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at by sol1.gud.siemens.co.at with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7 for ) id m0vSjhX-00023JC; Wed, 27 Nov 96 14:06 MET Received: by ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at (1.37.109.16/1.37) id AA071569903; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:05:03 +0100 From: "Hr.Ladavac" Message-Id: <199611271305.AA071569903@ws2301.gud.siemens.co.at> Subject: Re: looking for an idea To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:05:03 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu, terry@lambert.org, sprice@hiwaay.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <329B547F.167EB0E7@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Nov 26, 96 12:35:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk E-mail message from Julian Elischer contained: > Bill Paul wrote: > > > > > If YOU ( the server) are root.... > > make a file owned by them mode 400 > require them to open it and send you the file descriptor via AF_UNIX > > check it matches.. > if it does, then > 1/ the are themselves > or > 2/ they are root (game over) Or 3) they made a hard link, opened that, and sent you the file descriptor. The only protection agains that is a partition writable only by root where these files are to live--almost as bad as procfs. /Marino From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 05:11:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA18889 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.Chemie.FU-Berlin.DE [160.45.24.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA18876 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Wed, 27 Nov 96 14:11 MET Received: from wavehh.UUCP by mail.hanse.de with UUCP for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org id ; Wed, 27 Nov 96 14:11 MET Received: by wavehh.hanse.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07737; Wed, 27 Nov 96 13:51:18 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 96 13:51:18 +0100 From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Message-Id: <9611271251.AA07737@wavehh.hanse.de> To: jkh@time.cdrom.COM Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. Newsgroups: hanse-ml.freebsd.hackers References: <199611260208.TAA02586@rocky.mt.sri.com> <8867.848975625@time.cdrom.com> Reply-To: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'd welcome some compromise solutions, otherwise I think it's simply >too dangerous to advertise, explicitly or implicitly, as a feature. > Jordan What about read-only mode? Maybe I missed something, but I didn't hear from problems reading it. The whole situation could have been better it the MSDOSFS has been marked as broken in *all* example config files, many start from GENERIC, not from LINT. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin_Cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de http://cracauer.cons.org Fax.: +4940 5228536 "As far as I'm concerned, if something is so complicated that you can't ex- plain it in 10 seconds, then it's probably not worth knowing anyway"- Calvin From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 05:15:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA19055 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.206.135]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA19049 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:15:26 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA28286; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:14:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:14:28 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1666 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611270814_MC1-C3A-28D8@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1666 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-21-96 07:49:00 PM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1666 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 05:15:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA19069 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from hil-img-3.compuserve.com (hil-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.177.133]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA19054 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:15:27 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA09552; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:14:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:14:28 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1666 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611270814_MC1-C3A-28D8@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id TAA21271; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:49:03 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA11545; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:45:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29022 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:18:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:18:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611220018.QAA29022@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1666 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Thursday, 21 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1666 In this issue: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Pentium Pro status Re: Who needs Perl? We do! AIIIEEEEE... 3.0-current no bootee Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Regexp ambiguity (Was: cvs commit: src/gnu/lib/libregex ...) Re: any suggestions? Re: Device driver development Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Perl comment Re: Device driver development Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! VOP_READ (etc) man page (man 9) Re: vx driver problems Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:47:06 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > Next point, people are jumping on Perl about how we have so few system > utils based on it it should go, where are the utils based on TCL? > (And as for incompatiable versions... Do all the ports work with > our version of TCL?) This is an argument *against* TCL, not an argument *for* PERL. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: "Jin Guojun[ITG]" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:39:11 -0800 Subject: Re: Pentium Pro status } > I wanted some input regarding Pentium Pro machines. } > Has anyone had any problems with the hardware and/or using it with } > FreeBSD? } > } > Are there any problems with the PP chipset(is the latest Orion II or something } ?) } > I remember hearing about PCI problems with the chipset. Someone } > told me they still have problems in orion II. Is this true? } > } > What motherboards for Pentium Pro are good and reliable? } > } > What about multiprocessor support? Does anyone have FreeBSD hacks to } > support multiple processors? How well is it working? } > } > Thank you, } > } > Steven Wallace } } I'm using a PPro-200 with the 440FX chipset, I don't remember its } nickname. I've had no problems with it at all. 440FX is the most popular PCI chipset for PP motherboard. I do not know its nickname either. I ordered two MBs with this chipset: one is Tyan S1662 and another is ASUS P6NP5 (dual CPU is P65UP5). FreeBSD 2.2-Alpha crashes on Tyan S1662 quite often on NFS Tx. The ASUS has not come in yet. The trade off is CPU power with I/O power. Pentinum Pro gives 50% CPU power than Pentinum, but 440FX has 25% less memory bandwith than Triton-II. Also, I experienced that PP has slow network I/O than Pentinum. Some more performance comparsion willbe found on: ftp://george.lbl.gov/pub/ccs/performance.ps (p6-7 for P<-->PP). It will be updated whenever the new board/machines come in. - -Jin ------------------------------ From: Nate Williams Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:41:32 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > There is too much "damage control" and too little "consideration" taking > place for an unbiased conclusion that what Richard volunteered to do > "wasn't what needed to be done". > Richard was completely free to do what he wanted to do, but he wasn't going to get the 'blessing' of anyone until he had a working prototype that was at least as good as the current system. It has *nothing* to do with blessing or consideration given to an individual. John became the VM guru because he re-wrote the VM system, not because he said 'Hey, can I be the VM guru. Please, pretty please, I *really* know what I'm doing, so let me be it.' Poul was once the laptop guru, but because of lack of time and resources allowed me to become it *AFTER* I did some laptop work and prove that I was capable of handling it. (And I have since dropped the ball, but that's another story). I didn't ask Poul or core to be 'the laptop guy', I simply *became* the laptop guy because I did work. Richard has yet to show code for any of his good ideas, and until that happens we all will appreciate his CTM work, but asking for 'permission' to do something is never the way things are worked. To bring in the blast from the past, you becamse the defacto patchkit maintainer because you did the work, not because you got Bill's (or anyone else for that matter) permission. I was given the ugly stick because (hopefully) I had shown to you my willingness to do the work and by organizing and doing work *before* you handed me the baton. It wasn't because I asked so much as because I had already shown I was capable of doing the job. That's how things work around here. You don't get 'blessings' or 'permission' to do something, you do it and then find an advocate to run with it. After the advocate is happy with your work (or too overloaded to do it himself), you become a committer and then are one of the 'blessed/cursed' who are responsible for the whole darn mess. Nate ------------------------------ From: Jaye Mathisen Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:35:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: AIIIEEEEE... 3.0-current no bootee Hmph. I cvsup'd -current this morning. Built a kernel. P120, 128MB RAM, It's panicing with "supervisor write, page not present, right after the "REAL MEMORY = 13417720". If somebody needs all the gobbledygook, I can write it down. I have "MAXMEM=131072" in my kernel config file. A kernel from a couple days ago (albeit/w/o the maxmem option) boots and runs fine. ------------------------------ From: Richard Wackerbarth Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:36:35 -0600 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! >Richard was completely free to do what he wanted to do, but he wasn't >going to get the 'blessing' of anyone until he had a working prototype >that was at least as good as the current system. As I have pointed out a number of times, as I understand your "rules", it is not reasonable to even attempt this. There are EXTENSIVE changes which must be made. If I am shooting at a moving target, I'll never be able to catch up. Since I do not feel that "stopping everyone else" is a reasonable request, I advocate "incremental" steps. Unfortunately, to those who do not see the complete picture, those steps will be "steps backward" until the final piece is in place. As I interpret the mood of the "core", that is unacceptable. Therefore, I can only conclude that it is impossible for it to happen within the current framework. ------------------------------ From: J Wunsch Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:27:41 +0100 (MET) Subject: Regexp ambiguity (Was: cvs commit: src/gnu/lib/libregex ...) As Thomas Gellekum wrote: > > Merge from HEAD: don't duplicate the Posix regex stuff in libregex, > > it's already in libc (and both implementations clash when linking both > > libs simultaneously). > > While you're at it: when testing a new port I found that there are > multiple definitions of regerror in libcompat: > Which one of those do we really need there? If you look into the source, you'll notice that there are two different regexp packages in libcompat. One is sitting in `4.3', consisting of re_comp(), re_exec(), and the undocumented regerror(). All functions are in a single file, so once you reference re_comp() and re_exec(), you'll automatically get the correct regerror(). The other implementation is Henry Spencer's regexp(3), consisting of functions identically named to the Posix regex stuff (regcomp(), regexec(), regsub() [which is not in Posix]), and regerror(). All functions live in different source files. Further, regerror() is supposed to be overloadable by user programs, hence it's not that easy to squeeze it along into one of the other files, even though the default regerror() is a do-nothing. I'm not sure, maybe now that our assembler and linker understand weak symbols, we could go this route, so it will be tightly bound to its respective regexp functions, but can still be overloaded by the user? Are there opinions to this? - -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) ------------------------------ From: J Wunsch Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:48:09 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: any suggestions? As Costa wrote: > Formatting page, please wait...groff: can't find `DESC' file > groff:fatal error: invalid device `ascii' > Done. Your /usr/share/groff_font/devascii/ seems corrupted (or unreadable by user `man'). - -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) ------------------------------ From: J Wunsch Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:55:01 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Device driver development As alex huppenthal wrote: > I have several device drivers to create for FreeBSD. If you have > any pointers for a newbie just getting into writing drivers for FreeBSD > please respond. Except of the few stuff that has been written for section 9 of the manual by now, and of course, the 4.4BSD daemon book (and the refs under /usr/src/share/doc/), it's probably mostly UTSLware still. Submissions for new section 9 man pages are greatly welcome! Many of the pages there have been written by people in the process of understanding ``what's going on inside''. If you don't speak troff - -mdoc that's not a problem -- there will be people who can convert a plain ASCII document into this format once it's written. - -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) ------------------------------ From: Nate Williams Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:45:52 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Richard Wackerbarth writes: > >Richard was completely free to do what he wanted to do, but he wasn't > >going to get the 'blessing' of anyone until he had a working prototype > >that was at least as good as the current system. > > As I have pointed out a number of times, as I understand your "rules", > it is not reasonable to even attempt this. And that's where we disagree. > There are EXTENSIVE changes which must be made. If I am shooting at a > moving target, I'll never be able to catch up. The 'target' doeesn't keep moving. We have provided almost *NO* 'new' features over the 4.4 stuff other than making it work like someone expected it to, plus add the ports stuff. New stuff: 1) Working shlib support 2) Working R/O source tree (obj links and such) 3) Ports 4) Better .depend handling Since your new solution is better it shouldn't rely on the hacks and fixes we've needed to do to get things working 'the way we want' (although I disagree with some of the changes, majority rules). You need to provide (or at least show) that you can provide the same functionality with a 'better' system, or we aren't going anywhere. Heck, show me a working prototype that has 4 levels. Top level / \ Subdir1 Subdir2 / / \ P1 P2 ssubdir3 / \ P3 P4 Proof that you're way is 'better' is all that we're asking for. Can you fix the build environment so that it's easier than the current system, and that doesn't require any of the kludges the existing system needs (pre-built binaries), etc.. Make some dependencies in your tree, heck build something that requires flex, and have flex be one of the tools in the tree. Nate ------------------------------ From: "Brian J. McGovern" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:54:30 -0500 Subject: Perl comment Well, might as well throw in my two cents... Why not make a install menu tree similar to the source menu tree (ie - base, gnu, sys, et al), and include all of the add-ons (apache, perl, anonymous ftp config, pcnfsd, etc) that provide typical "extended network/development services" (which could therefore be a limiter to keep things like elm, pine, off the list)? This way, it would take these things off the post-install menu, and give a configuration that will allow a certain amount of flexibility. -Brian ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:48:46 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Device driver development alex huppenthal stands accused of saying: > I have several device drivers to create for FreeBSD. If you have > any pointers for a newbie just getting into writing drivers for FreeBSD > please respond. Your best bet is really to look at the existing drivers; if you're doing serial comms stuff the 'sio' driver is _the_ place to start. Then start asking questions here; there are plenty of people that can help you out. A while back Eric H. was working on a driver writer's guide, but it's very hard to know where to draw the line between "this is a BSD-specific issue" and "this is something about device drivers in general". The 4.4 Daemon book is also a useful reference, although a bit distant from the current FreeBSD implementation. > We've developed a number of high performance communications boards > for FreeBSD. I am now/will soon be available for device driver development at reasonable rates, should you wish to outsource. - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Richard Wackerbarth Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:19:02 -0600 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! >Heck, show me a working prototype that has 4 levels. > > Top level > / \ > Subdir1 Subdir2 > / / \ > P1 P2 ssubdir3 > / \ > P3 P4 > >Proof that you're way is 'better' is all that we're asking for. I have offered "samples" before, but that offer was rejected. The demand was that I demonstrate by showing it work on EVERYTHING. (ie fete complete) If you are willing to accept a sanitized "demo" which shows how I would handle the "recursive" nature of the present system, I can do that without "fixing" any of the current code. A "sample" library and a tool or two are all that should be required. This is a far different request from the one that I prove that I can do EVERYTHING. ------------------------------ From: Nate Williams Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:21:38 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Richard Wackerbarth writes: > >Heck, show me a working prototype that has 4 levels. > > > > Top level > > / \ > > Subdir1 Subdir2 > > / / \ > > P1 P2 ssubdir3 > > / \ > > P3 P4 > > > >Proof that you're way is 'better' is all that we're asking for. > > I have offered "samples" before, but that offer was rejected. I've never seen an offer before, so I can't comment. > The demand > was that I demonstrate by showing it work on EVERYTHING. (ie fete complete) > If you are willing to accept a sanitized "demo" which shows how I would > handle the "recursive" nature of the present system, I can do that without > "fixing" any of the current code. A "sample" library and a tool or two are > all that should be required. Show me the above, and we'll go from there. Nate ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:04:53 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Gary Clark II stands accused of saying: > > I am the Perl person unless someone stands forth. I brought 4.036 in > back in 2.0 and have been waiting for the wrangling to be done with before > I bring in 5.003/4. I have no problem doing this. I also need to > "REMOVE" the current info in the tree and update to the latest. No > big deal, except for the flamage I would catch. I think that opinion on this is settling. Thanks for standing up, too. > Next point, people are jumping on Perl about how we have so few system > utils based on it it should go, where are the utils based on TCL? Wrong mentality. I have about 20,000 lines of Tcl here in out product which load a couple of custom libraries and talk to our hardware. This is what having Tcl in the tree is about, and is why I see Perl in the tree as a Very Good Thing. > (And as for incompatiable versions... Do all the ports work with > our version of TCL?) All except a very few have been cleanly converted. > Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Julian Elischer Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:34:47 -0800 Subject: VOP_READ (etc) man page (man 9) SOMEONE had these ready to go, but I forget who... If I can find them I'd like to go over them and check them in... julian ------------------------------ From: Naoki Hamada Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:54:22 +0900 (JST) Subject: Re: vx driver problems Jon Morgan wrote: >I found problems in if_vx.c where the driver handles ifconfig link[012] flags. >The driver is ANDing the index into the connector_table rather than the >actual bit value out of the table. >Here's the code for 2.1.6-RELEASE that fixes the problem: Thanks! I will rewrite the code around there and make it print more friendly messages. - - nao ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:24:55 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > It's not a question of whether _everyone_ needs it, but whether a > > sufficient number of people need it. I think that so far the evidence > > indicates that this is the case. > > Not _everyone_ needs an appendectomy. > > But perhaps a _suficient_ number of people need them, so we should > remove everyone's appendix at age 6. Oh please; I think you can do better than that. p -> q <=/=> !p -> !q Perhaps "Not everyone needs tetanus immunisation, but it helps a lot of people, so we immunise at age 6". If further research shows that immunisation sucks, then we can stop. > > I'm entirely in agreement with the basic principle, but I strongly > > believe that we need to incorporate mature and ubiquitous tools in > > as seamless and standard a fashion as possible. > > This is a different argument entirely... it is a complaint that the > installation dependency process is insufficiently seamless. No it is _not_. Any statically-configured system is vulnerable to variation in usage pattern; the simple intent here is to cover more of the possible requirements in the out-of-the-box configuration in a reasonable fashion. > Terry Lambert - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: J Wunsch Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:18:52 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! As Richard Wackerbarth wrote: > Oh! I think that there was some concensus that it NEEDS to be > done. It is just that the "core" is unwilling to delegate the > responsibility to me. There's nothing like "core" that can be attributed this way, as if it were a single person, in FreeBSD. There are only members of the core team who try to discuss several `government' issues on their mailing list, who often have (incidentally) agreeing opinions but also often disagreeing opinions about some technical matter, and who last but not least often spend quite a large amount of time on the project, not only for coding but for much more boring tasks like release engineering, user support etc. So pleas don't claim that "core" does/doesn't do this or that. - -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1666 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 05:15:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA19099 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-5.compuserve.com (arl-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.217.135]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA19089 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:15:53 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA20953; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:15:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:14:28 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1667 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611270815_MC1-BC4-D910@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from smyrno.sol.net (smyrno.sol.net [206.55.64.117]) by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id VAA18199; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:21:28 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by smyrno.sol.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA02856; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:54:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA03743 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:29:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:29:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611220129.RAA03743@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1667 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Thursday, 21 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1667 In this issue: Re: the way things are going (Was: Who needs Perl?) WCARCHIVE DOWN AGAIN. Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: panic: ffs_valloc: dup alloc Re: New mailing list - CVS-Alert??? Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Disk Striping Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J Wunsch Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:23:57 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: the way things are going (Was: Who needs Perl?) As Nate Williams wrote: [Excellent explanation deleted, i fully agree with Nate here.] > That's how things work around here. You don't get 'blessings' or > 'permission' to do something, you do it and then find an advocate to run > with it. After the advocate is happy with your work (or too overloaded > to do it himself), you become a committer and then are one of the > 'blessed/cursed' who are responsible for the whole darn mess. Well, but you forgot: that's exactly the point where the real work begins... ;-) - -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) ------------------------------ From: Eric Tremblay Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 16:21:45 -0800 Subject: WCARCHIVE DOWN AGAIN. CRL called again, WCARCHIVE is down again. 4:21 for the past 30 minutes. Eric "E.T." Tremblay Walnut Creek CDROM eric@cdrom.com ------------------------------ From: Nate Williams Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:34:44 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! [ Reduced the Cc list down. Please try and minimize the lists ] > > Next point, people are jumping on Perl about how we have so few system > > utils based on it it should go, where are the utils based on TCL? > > Wrong mentality. I have about 20,000 lines of Tcl here in out product > which load a couple of custom libraries and talk to our hardware. This > is what having Tcl in the tree is about, and is why I see Perl in the > tree as a Very Good Thing. But the policy is that nothing belongs in the 'src' tree unless something else relies on it. You can get TCL via the ports (or could have until we brought it into the tree) and it should have stayed there since nothing still uses it and it's been over 5 months. I complained when it was brought in and was told 'Real Soon Now', but nothing has happened. It's simply bloat that is useless to *most* users, and has no use in the main tree. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but unless that happens soon I'm gonna stay in the 'complain and moan' camp. (I *HATE* seeing stupid TCL man-pages that come up instead of the C routines). Nate ------------------------------ From: "Gary Palmer" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:33:26 -0500 Subject: Re: panic: ffs_valloc: dup alloc Thomas David Rivers wrote in message ID <199611161253.HAA26583@lakes.water.net>: > > root@mail:/var/crash> gdb -k kernel vmcore.2 > > GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it > > under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. > > There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. > > GDB 4.13 (i386-unknown-freebsd), > > Copyright 1994 Free Software Foundation, Inc... > > IdlePTD 1d5000 > > current pcb at 1abd64 > > panic: ffs_valloc: dup alloc > > #0 boot (howto=260) at ../../i386/i386/machdep.c:912 > > 912 } else { > > (kgdb) bt > Welcome to the club :-) > This is the panic that I have had for several months, which is > duplicated almost every night. Well, it just bit me again :-( > Rest assured that several people are investigating this at this > time... > I believe it has something to do with the inode allocation bits in > ffs_valloc(). Others believe some race conditions in vnode allocation > are to blaim, etc... David Greene is investigating other avenues. > It seems to me that we are closing in on the issue, if only by > eliminating everything else :-) Question: it's always the same FS with me that bites the dust. Perhaps a previous crash of the machine caused a FS corruption fsck isn't picking up on. Has anyone who is being bothered by this dumped the fs with *tar* (not dump) and resored to see if that fixes the problem? Gary - -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info ------------------------------ From: cracauer@wavehh.hanse.de (Martin Cracauer) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 01:14:06 +0100 Subject: Re: New mailing list - CVS-Alert??? >I would like to propose a new mailing list. It would be called cvs-alert >and wuold be for those times that someone makes a commit that requires >either massive changes to way something is done or re-compiles >of programs. The sequence of actions to compile a kernel and then the world is almost always the same (includes, config, kernel, compiler). I wrote down some of it at (was for NetBSD, but applies to FreeBSD, too): http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/bsd-to-current.html Besides getting a world to build, there's another issue: if you don't do a make world everytime you have a new tree, how to find out what programs need to be recompiled? One example are tools that depend on kernel data structure layout. The right thing to solve this is to make sure you rebuild such programs when include files they reference changes. Traversing /usr/src/*bin* that already has was compile at some time and an individual 'make depend' should do the job. Martin - -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://cracauer.cons.org Fax +49405228536 "As far as I'm concerned, if something is so complicated that you can't ex- plain it in 10 seconds, then it's probably not worth knowing anyway"- Calvin ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:16:45 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > But the policy is that nothing belongs in the 'src' tree unless > something else relies on it. You can get TCL via the ports (or could This devolves to "nothing belongs in the source tree". If you accept any other argument, then we are talking about what level of service/redundancy (depending on perspective) is appropriate. > main tree. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but unless that happens soon > I'm gonna stay in the 'complain and moan' camp. (I *HATE* seeing stupid > TCL man-pages that come up instead of the C routines). And finally, your real gripe. How about reordering your manpage search order so that 3 comes before n? I hate getting printf(1) before printf(3) too; do you hear me griping about that? > Nate - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:34:57 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > > There is too much "damage control" and too little "consideration" taking > > place for an unbiased conclusion that what Richard volunteered to do > > "wasn't what needed to be done". > > Richard was completely free to do what he wanted to do, but he wasn't > going to get the 'blessing' of anyone until he had a working prototype > that was at least as good as the current system. I don't think that was the problem. What he was looking for was a commitment that, if there was consensus that the prototype was "at least as good as the current system", then the existing system would be replaced. In other words, a definition of an acceptable replacement and an agreement to not change the definition out from under him while he did the work. Then all Richard would have to do is "meet spec" instead of "meet spec and play politics". > To bring in the blast from the past, you becamse the defacto patchkit > maintainer because you did the work, not because you got Bill's (or > anyone else for that matter) permission. I was given the ugly stick > because (hopefully) I had shown to you my willingness to do the work and > by organizing and doing work *before* you handed me the baton. Not quite. I agree that the results would have been the same, whatever the motivation, if that's any consolation. 8-). Actually, it was because I'm more interested in (figuratively) framing houses than in nailing up sheetrock, spackling, and painting. After building the machine for building patchkits, I was interested in going on to build the next machine instead of running the one I built. In other words, I wanted to do systems engineering, not patchkit or release engineering. If you want to go the the "blast from the past" immediately previous to that one, I did the same thing with the FreeBSD FAQ: built a tool, and then instead of using it, went on to the next tool (the patchkit). If I'd known then what I know now, I would have spent a bit more time systems-engineering a template for volunteer organizations and a bit less time waiting for Bill to wear the mantle designed by Linus. I can only say that I was naieve about what the spirit of volunteerism can and can't motivate in the face of normal human group dynamics in the context of a private law system. I'll know better The Next Time, and will install a self-maintaining, machine-run voting democracy with a prioritization feedback loop. Example: Each person gets N "votes" in a time period, and can "spend" up to 0-K of them on any topic. Each person also gets some M << N "call for votes" that they can "spend" in a given time period. Majority rules. Votes close 4 weeks after call, or when a majority is undeniable (the number of remaining potential votes is less than the total minus the votes already cast for one side of the issue). Each accumulates over time, and both quit accumulating when they reach the limit. Same thing for organizational policy decisions, only with smaller limits to ensure a longer periodic vector, and a 3/4 majority requirement. Like vote accumulation period, initial votes for new members, expansion of the comitters list, change in majority values, etc.. So if I truly feel strongly about something, I can "call for a vote", and then "vote up to K votes" for/against. Everyone else "votes up to K votes" for/against. If they care. If they don't care enough to vote, then what they say really doesn't matter. If I'm a whiner, I quickly run out of my number of "votes/call for votes" and the activity is self-limiting. I'll either pace myself, or you can "put me down" with opposing votes each time I enter a flurry of activity. If the main participants fail to participate fully, then the system will self-correct to a different meta-stable state that excludes them, but which does not penalize their future participation. Goodbye to: Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My patch I didn't have time to look at your patch, but I'll get to it real soon now, I promise" -- A member of the committer society Subject: No time Sorry, your changes are too large for us to be able to vet them. -- A member of the code vetting society Subject: Re: Closed developement Sorry, I just don't have time to waste on organizational issues, I'm busy coding! -- A member of the organization committe Ah, ode to fuzzy control systems! Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org - --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ------------------------------ From: Nate Williams Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:51:31 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > > But the policy is that nothing belongs in the 'src' tree unless > > something else relies on it. You can get TCL via the ports (or could > > This devolves to "nothing belongs in the source tree". If you accept > any other argument, then we are talking about what level of > service/redundancy (depending on perspective) is appropriate. Everything in the tree has a purpose. I can't do *anything* with TCL, and nothing in the tree uses TCL. I need the compiler to rebuild myself, but I don't need TCL for *anything* (w/regards to the system). TCL alone doesn't provide anything, while ls does (it's part of the OS). I'd even throw the games out, but they are considered part of 'standard BSD' releases. > > main tree. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but unless that happens soon > > I'm gonna stay in the 'complain and moan' camp. (I *HATE* seeing stupid > > TCL man-pages that come up instead of the C routines). > > And finally, your real gripe. No, that was a 'PLUS, I also hate it' kind of gripe. Nate ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:31:32 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > > > This devolves to "nothing belongs in the source tree". If you accept > > any other argument, then we are talking about what level of > > service/redundancy (depending on perspective) is appropriate. > > Everything in the tree has a purpose. I can't do *anything* with TCL, > and nothing in the tree uses TCL. I need the compiler to rebuild > myself, but I don't need TCL for *anything* (w/regards to the system). *You* may not be able to do anything with Tcl, but *I* can. *I* can't do anythying with Perl, but *other* people can. Nobody uses the entire feature set of the system; that is a given. > TCL alone doesn't provide anything, while ls does (it's part of the OS). Tcl is actually used for BMaking stuff, as you may have noticed. Jordan is bolting the new install together using it. I'm working on some configuration tools using it. 'ls' is only useful if you are a shell user, and need to see what files are on the disk. There are plenty of systems where 'ls' isn't particularly useful at all. Like I said, we're talking about a matter of degree, not principle. > No, that was a 'PLUS, I also hate it' kind of gripe. Hmm, it was the only one I could see that wasn't purely philosophical. > Nate - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Nate Williams Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:58:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > > > There is too much "damage control" and too little "consideration" taking > > > place for an unbiased conclusion that what Richard volunteered to do > > > "wasn't what needed to be done". > > > > Richard was completely free to do what he wanted to do, but he wasn't > > going to get the 'blessing' of anyone until he had a working prototype > > that was at least as good as the current system. > > I don't think that was the problem. That was *the* problem, and I was one of the most prolific posters. > What he was looking for was a commitment that, if there was consensus > that the prototype was "at least as good as the current system", then > the existing system would be replaced. You get that *after* you've proven your point, not before. That's the way things work. Because one person's 'solution' may meet all the technical criteria (ie; it solves the problem) doesn't mean it meets all the criteria (is this *better* than the current system). I won't buy off on *anything* simply because there is no such thing as 'completely technical' solution that have no politics/emotions/personal judgement involved. Richard may think he solution is 'easier/better/cleaner', but since I'm one of the users responsible for using it I leave it up to *MY* judgement to determine that. If he doesn't like my opinion, he can bring it up with someone else, etc... As a 'committer' I'm responsible for the code in the tree, and responsible to both users and developers. I don't take that responsibility lightly, and as such you should be commending the committers for trying to maintain some semblance of 'consistancy' in the tree rather than beating them over the head for doing their job. Nate ------------------------------ From: Nate Williams Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:07:08 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Michael Smith writes: > Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > > > > > This devolves to "nothing belongs in the source tree". If you accept > > > any other argument, then we are talking about what level of > > > service/redundancy (depending on perspective) is appropriate. > > > > Everything in the tree has a purpose. I can't do *anything* with TCL, > > and nothing in the tree uses TCL. I need the compiler to rebuild > > myself, but I don't need TCL for *anything* (w/regards to the system). > > *You* may not be able to do anything with Tcl, but *I* can. *I* > can't do anythying with Perl, but *other* people can. Nobody uses > the entire feature set of the system; that is a given. > > > TCL alone doesn't provide anything, while ls does (it's part of the OS). > > Tcl is actually used for BMaking stuff, as you may have noticed. > Jordan is bolting the new install together using it. I'm working on > some configuration tools using it. Let's see those tools, and then I'll shutup. Again, there are lots of *useful* things that we could bring in, but they aren't used and/or essential. Should we bring in Python as well, and what about the new Limbo compiler from the folks at Lucent (nee Bell Labs). What about the ADA compiler from the GNU folks? Where do you draw the line between 'useful to some' and 'bloat'. It was decided a *LONG* time ago that unless a utility was part of the standard BSD distribution and/or was required for the running system it shouldn't be part of the tree. 'libforms' was recently deleted since it was a 'good idea' that never came to pass. It might have been a useful tool, but *FreeBSD* doesn't use it. > 'ls' is only useful if you are a shell user, and need to see what > files are on the disk. There are plenty of systems where 'ls' isn't > particularly useful at all. Like I said, we're talking about a matter > of degree, not principle. FreeBSD is sold as a multi-user Unix system. 'ls' is required on that, and as well it's distributed as part of the 'standard BSD' tools. Nate ------------------------------ From: michael butler Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:08:09 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Disk Striping Jaye Mathisen writes: > Uh, by definition, isn't striping spreading the load across spindles? > I realize it's a tad more complicated than that, but the essence is the > same. This is optimally effective when there is only one locality of reference since striping then serves to reduce the number of seeks (divide number of tracks transferred by N drives) and introduce an element of parallelism into the disk transactions (each drive will detach from the SCSI bus whilst busy). > > There are four activities which consume disk resources: > > > > i) maintenance of the active and history files > > ii) maintenance of the overview hierarchy > > iii) writing out the articles themselves > > iv) scribbling to /var/log/news These activities are usually not operating on adjacent locales when implemented on a single drive (or one logical constructed out of a few physical ones). Thus the striped drive will be seeking all over the place and losing much of the advantage of striping in the first place. You do not want to design something that inherently seeks a lot, you need to minimise seeking for both performance, long term reliability and drive life. It is, however, quite valid to stripe any one activity, such as scribbling out the articles across multiple drives. You could, for example, use two striped drives for the history stuff, one for the overview (only if you have any readers) and two striped for the article spool to achieve what you're after. Even better, split the two striped arrangements onto two separate (SCSI) controllers, michael ------------------------------ From: davidn@sdev.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:12:44 +1100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Michael Smith writes: > > This is a different argument entirely... it is a complaint that the > > installation dependency process is insufficiently seamless. > > No it is _not_. Any statically-configured system is vulnerable to > variation in usage pattern; the simple intent here is to cover more of > the possible requirements in the out-of-the-box configuration in a > reasonable fashion. If this is the reason for having it, then Perl4 is no longer viable. In the real world, the only requirement it meets is being able to run the scripts with which FreeBSD is delivered, and that is far too minimal to handle "possible requirements" for using perl scripts from elsewhere, most of which are now require perl5. It needs to be removed or replaced. David Nugent, Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:53:27 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > > > Tcl is actually used for BMaking stuff, as you may have noticed. > > Jordan is bolting the new install together using it. I'm working on > > some configuration tools using it. > > Let's see those tools, and then I'll shutup. Again, there are lots of Sure. Right now I'm taking gripes from my employer, my SO and the DOS emulation people for the time I'm spending on my part; I don't plan on wasting all that angst. > essential. Should we bring in Python as well, and what about the new > Limbo compiler from the folks at Lucent (nee Bell Labs). What about the > ADA compiler from the GNU folks? Where do you draw the line between > 'useful to some' and 'bloat'. That is _exactly_ what this thread has been about; ref. my original post. In my opinion, the usefulness of Perl in the base system outweighs the 'bloat' consideration. I'm aware that bloat is an issue of religious importance to some people, and I've been trying to encourage one of these people (that isn't as overloaded as the rest of us 8) to do something constructive about it without alienating the "comfortable system" people by telling them to go pick a pile of ports. > It was decided a *LONG* time ago that unless a utility was part of the > standard BSD distribution and/or was required for the running system it > shouldn't be part of the tree. That's all well and good, but it presents a chicken-and-egg situation for anyone trying to work outside the decades-old BSD model. You may not consider this a problem; I do. Opinions differ. > FreeBSD is sold as a multi-user Unix system. 'ls' is required on that, > and as well it's distributed as part of the 'standard BSD' tools. I get this really sinking feeling around that whole concept. It's like there's a little stack of yellowing 15x11 half-blue tractor-feed somewhere with the Unix Commandments in faded courier on it, and that it exerts this Powerful Force over all those that have read it, hardening their hearts against anything not thought of at least ten years ago. Maybe that as it should be; I just beg to differ. > Nate - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Nate Williams Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:28:42 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! > > ADA compiler from the GNU folks? Where do you draw the line between > > 'useful to some' and 'bloat'. > > That is _exactly_ what this thread has been about; ref. my original > post. In my opinion, the usefulness of Perl in the base system > outweighs the 'bloat' consideration. Agreed (to a point). > > It was decided a *LONG* time ago that unless a utility was part of the > > standard BSD distribution and/or was required for the running system it > > shouldn't be part of the tree. > > That's all well and good, but it presents a chicken-and-egg situation > for anyone trying to work outside the decades-old BSD model. You may > not consider this a problem; I do. Opinions differ. Yes, but anyone capable of developing a 'cool tool' with TCL that we can't live w/out is capable of installing a port, and *then* showing me how wonderful it is to justify bringing in TCL as part of the base system. Put the cart *before* the horse. Nate ------------------------------ End of hackers-digest V1 #1667 ****************************** From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 05:18:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA19190 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA19185 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from hq.icb.chel.su ([193.125.10.33]) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA17087 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:18:40 -0800 Received: (babkin@localhost) by hq.icb.chel.su (8.7.5/8.6.5) id SAA03697 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:15:58 +0500 (ESK) From: "Serge A. Babkin" Message-Id: <199611271315.SAA03697@hq.icb.chel.su> Subject: strange default PATH To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 18:15:58 +0500 (ESK) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have discovered a strange fact today: some standard commands (like chown) are moved to /usr/sbin but login still includes only /bin and /usr/bin in PATH. It even has no control file that allows to change the default variables' settings like SysV /etc/default/login ! It makes LOTS of problems if you want to run some program using rsh, you need to write the PATH variable implicitly in it. Is it a feature or just a bug ? -SB From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 05:15:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA19100 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.217.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA19091 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:15:54 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA01495; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:15:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:14:28 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1667 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611270815_MC1-BC4-D910@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1667 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-21-96 09:29:00 PM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1667 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 05:40:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA20187 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA20182 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from isbalham (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id FAA15996 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id NAA17360; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:33:33 GMT Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:28:09 GMT Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:28:09 GMT X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Julian Assange From: rb@gid.co.uk (Bob Bishop) Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> YES!!! You're not alone. I suspect for *most* of users the ability to >> transfer data to/from MSDOS partitions/floppies is crucial. As for me, as >> much as I love FreeBSD, I would seriously consider changing it to Linux, >> if it were unable to deal with msdosfs. > >The floppies isn't an issue. You can use the m* utils for this without >msdosfs - though I agree data sharing from paritions is very important. > >Proff NOOOO!!!! I don't want to dink around with assorted utilities just to copy files on and off floppies. Especially when mtools.1:BUGS says (2.1.5) "The support for non-Linux OS variants has not been tested for a long time. It may contain bugs, or even not work at all." Rather stick with the devil I know... -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 06:48:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA22933 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [199.171.26.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA22925 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from IMXGATE.COM by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3743; Wed, 27 Nov 96 09:48:23 EST Received: from sv13.cis.squared.com by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 27 Nov 96 09:48:19 EST Received: from mg01a.mhs.squared.com by sv13.cis.squared.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30752; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:48:11 -0500 Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by mg01a.mhs.squared.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:47:12 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1B20D15B0187397C> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 9:51:13 -0500 From: "Sexton, Robert" Organization: Square D To: dmaddox@scsn.net Cc: hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: X/Mouse/2.1.5 Wierdness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mystery Solved: (Admittedly, a low priority problem) For those of you who forgot the original problem: X was freezing whenever the mouse crossed a window boundary. Click and drag was also non-functional. Long ago, when experimenting with ntp and a gps, /dev/gps0 was linked to /dev/mouse. ntp was grabbing all the mouse bytes! I suspect that when a window event happened, there was a context switch, and ntp would move to the front of the run queue. Since it runs at a higher priority, the X server would never get anything! - Robert Sexton From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 07:04:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA23638 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA23633 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id JAA19115; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:00:28 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611271500.JAA19115@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Netstat broken or two many bytes? To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:00:28 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Nov 27, 96 01:25:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So is the statistics broken (this is 2.1.5-RELEASE) or is something else > amiss in my computer? I really don't like these negative inbytes... There is nothing wrong, you are seeing an overflow :-) > And it has been up for only about a month (uptime 29 days + something). If > it is just the statistics, could we make the wrap-around value bigger (use > 64 bity numbers for example)? > > Name Mtu Network Address Ipkts Ierrs Ibytes Opkts Oerrs Obytes Coll > ed0 1500 00.c0.6c.55.50.00 12844801 577 -1765725048 19673776 0 1959771210 5908886 > ed0 1500 172.17.1/24 localhost 12844801 577 -1765725048 19673776 0 1959771210 5908886 > lp0* 1500 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 > lo0 16384 130938 0 8103328 130938 0 8103328 0 > lo0 16384 your-net localhost 130938 0 8103328 130938 0 8103328 0 > sl0* 552 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 > tun0* 1500 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 I routinely see this, many of my interfaces see 5Mpkts/day. "UTSL!" The printf()'s in netstat/if.c +204 are signed: printf("%8d %5d ", ifnet.if_ipackets, ifnet.if_ierrors); if (bflag) printf("%10d ", ifnet.if_ibytes); printf("%8d %5d ", ifnet.if_opackets, ifnet.if_oerrors); if (bflag) printf("%10d ", ifnet.if_obytes); printf("%5d", ifnet.if_collisions); This is contrary to the definition of ifnet, sys/net/if.h +111, where the variables are declared u_long: u_long ifi_ipackets; /* packets received on interface */ u_long ifi_ierrors; /* input errors on interface */ u_long ifi_opackets; /* packets sent on interface */ u_long ifi_oerrors; /* output errors on interface */ u_long ifi_collisions; /* collisions on csma interfaces */ u_long ifi_ibytes; /* total number of octets received */ u_long ifi_obytes; /* total number of octets sent */ It may certainly be reasonable to correct netstat... unless (unlikely) the negative sign is intentional to let you know an overflow condition is near (someone doing before/after automated testing could check for a sign change, which would happen twice as often as an overflow) but I think that would be dense. I do not know if it is a good idea to change these to quad_t (is there such a thing as a u_quad_t?). There would surely be at least a small performance penalty. On the other hand, it would be cool to say "Yeah, in the last 200 days, this machine has routed 1.2 terabytes of data without a crash, here's the 'netstat -i -b' to prove it" :-) ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 07:23:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA24336 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [199.171.26.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA24330 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from IMXGATE.COM by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4254; Wed, 27 Nov 96 10:02:31 EST Received: from sv13.cis.squared.com by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 27 Nov 96 10:02:24 EST Received: from mg01a.mhs.squared.com by sv13.cis.squared.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA66474; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:02:15 -0500 Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by mg01a.mhs.squared.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:01:42 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2C82D85B0187397C> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:05:40 -0500 From: "Sexton, Robert" Organization: Square D To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov (Jason Thorpe) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Alpha Based Machines (Was: Re: IBM 57SLC) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00.b27D MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On a subject change.... Are there any _affordable_ alpha motherboards out there yet? I see microway is selling $5000 dollar, 32MB systems. Economies of scale look a long way off. - Robert Sexton From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 07:30:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA24669 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA24650 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:30:10 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Lehey Received: from freebie.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0vSlvF-000QrTC; Wed, 27 Nov 96 16:29 MET Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.de (8.8.3/8.6.12) id OAA02300; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:48:52 +0100 (MET) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Message-Id: <199611271348.OAA02300@freebie.lemis.de> Subject: Re: A simple way to crash your system. In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "Nov 26, 96 00:19:01 am" To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Tim Vanderhoek) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:48:52 +0100 (MET) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek writes: > On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Any strong votes to the contrary? I don't think there's anything >> about the current msdosfs we want to keep anyway. > > It works great for reading 3 1/2" floppies. This is fairly important... You're the first to say this, but nobody else has said you can use mtools instead. Possibly mtools is buggy, too, but it's user-level code, and it works for me. I can even write DOS floppies with it :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 07:40:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA25466 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA25461 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id JAA19169 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:40:11 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611271540.JAA19169@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Strange behaviour of a box. To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:40:10 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a box that is doing something quite strange. The OS is 2.1.0-951026-SNAP, which was released about a day before 2.1.0R, and is essentially 2.1.0R. I didn't reinstall the box because I considered the return on investment to be zero. ;-) The hardware: ASUS P/I-P55TP4XE(?) Triton-I P-100MB with 96MB RAM ASUS SC-200 NCR-810, AHA-3940 Pile'o'disks Kingston KNE40T 10baseT (DEC 21041) While this box is due for replacement, and is actually in the process of being replaced, this still seemed funny enough for me to ask if anyone had ever seen something like this. For the last several months, it would crash every three to five days, and come back up just fine. I would log in to the box, run 'dmesg', and see # /sbin/dmesg | more nging root device to sd0a WARNING: / was not properly dismounted. syncing disks... done Rebooting... FreeBSD 2.1.0-951026-SNAP #0: Thu Oct 17 20:45:51 CDT 1996 jgreco@hummin.sol.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/HUMMIN_CCD CPU: 99-MHz Pentium 735\\90 or 815\\100 (Pentium-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 Features=0x1bf real memory = 100663296 (98304K bytes) Physical memory hole(s): avail memory = 95379456 (93144K bytes) [yadda yadda yadda] There is no clue as to why it sync'd its disks and rebooted. No log messages. Nobody on the console to hit CTRL-ALT-DEL. Thinking it was a kernel problem, I rebuilt the kernel back in October and installed the new kernel. It was the same configuration file that had been running for months, and there is nothing unusual about it in my opinion. I sort of wrote this off as maybe being tickled by some strange software corruption. The machine locked last night and I rebooted it this morning. As it was coming back up, it did a very strange thing... [...] Changing root device to sd0a WARNING: / was not properly dismounted. Automatic reboot in progress... /dev/rsd0a: CLEAN FLAG NOT SET IN SUPERBLOCK (FIXED) /dev/rsd0a: 1612 files, 8481 used, 6622 free (26 frags, 1649 blocks, 0.2% fragmentation) syncing disks... done Rebooting... It was in the middle of checking /usr and it just totally flipped and spontaneously rebooted. Bearing in mind that the machine is slated for replacement, does anyone have any thoughts as to what might cause this? Thanks, and have a great Thanksgiving.. ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 08:35:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA27988 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:35:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from guardian.fortress.org (fortress.org [199.84.158.128]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA27983 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:35:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from andrew@localhost) by guardian.fortress.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA25756; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:36:06 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:36:06 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Webster Reply-To: andrew@pubnix.net To: Joe Greco cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Strange behaviour of a box. In-Reply-To: <199611271540.JAA19169@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > It was in the middle of checking /usr and it just totally flipped and > spontaneously rebooted. > > Bearing in mind that the machine is slated for replacement, does anyone > have any thoughts as to what might cause this? Have you tried it with the keybaord unplugged, perhaps the keyboard is freaking out. > > Thanks, and have a great Thanksgiving.. Regards, (had our thanksgiving a month ago) Andrew Webster andrew@pubnix.net PubNIX Montreal Connected to the world Branche au monde P.O. Box 147 Cote Saint Luc, Quebec H4V 2Y3 tel 514.990.5911 http://www.pubnix.net fax 514.990.9443 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 08:42:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA28305 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA28300 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:42:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id KAA19329; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:41:12 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199611271641.KAA19329@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: Strange behaviour of a box. To: andrew@pubnix.net Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:41:12 -0600 (CST) Cc: jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Webster" at Nov 27, 96 11:36:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Joe Greco wrote: > > > > > It was in the middle of checking /usr and it just totally flipped and > > spontaneously rebooted. > > > > Bearing in mind that the machine is slated for replacement, does anyone > > have any thoughts as to what might cause this? > > Have you tried it with the keybaord unplugged, perhaps the keyboard is > freaking out. Yes, the keyboard was actually unplugged (I have one KB/monitor for the whole rack). That is mildly unusual, usually the keyboard lives on that box due to the fact that it has more problems than most of the other boxes :-) but it has happened both with and without. Good idea though, ... JG From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 08:58:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA28994 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from diamond.xtalwind.net (diamond.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA28984 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (pa1dsp10.x31.infi.net [206.27.115.34]) by diamond.xtalwind.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id LAA04027 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:57:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:56:56 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@localhost To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1666 In-Reply-To: <199611270814_MC1-C3A-28D8@compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com wrote: > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:14:28 -0500 > From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com > To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" > Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1666 vi .procmailrc a :0: * ^From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com /dev/null ZZ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@onyx.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 09:39:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01224 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:39:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from hil-img-3.compuserve.com (hil-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.177.133]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01218 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:39:01 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA13483; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:38:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:46:53 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1668 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611271238_MC1-BC4-D9D9@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Delivery Failure Report Your document: hackers-digest V1 #1668 could not be delivered to: barry perryman@csoftuk because: Router: Unable to open mailbox file CSOFTUK1/COMPUTASOFT LIMITED mail.box: Modem does not respond Routing path: CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=C SERVE-MAIL4/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERVE-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE,CN=CSERV E-HUB1/OU=SERVER/O=CSERVE You can resend the undeliverable document to the recipients listed above by choosing the Send command on the Mail menu. Unless you receive other Delivery Failure Reports, the document was successfully delivered to the other recipients, if any. (strikethrough: ________________________) To: INTERNET:freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG at CSERVE@CISHUB cc: From: INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org@CISHUB Date: 11-22-96 07:42:00 AM Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1668 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Nov 27 09:39:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hackers Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA01260 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from hil-img-1.compuserve.com (hil-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.177.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01253 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:39:24 -0800 (PST) From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange@CSERVE4.CCMAIL.compuserve.com Received: by hil-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id MAA12124; Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:38:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:46:53 -0500 Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: hackers-digest V1 #1668 To: "INTERNET:hackers@freefall.freebsd.org" Message-ID: <199611271238_MC1-BC4-D9D9@compuserve.com> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by hil-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id HAA01690; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:12:14 -0500 From: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id HAA00576; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:10:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA12234 for freebsd-hackers-digest-outgoing; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:45:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:45:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199611221045.CAA12234@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hackers-digest V1 #1668 Reply-To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Errors-To: owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org Precedence: bulk hackers-digest Friday, 22 November 1996 Volume 01 : Number 1668 In this issue: IBM 57SLC Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: arpresolve errors Re: IBM 57SLC Re: IBM 57SLC Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Disk Striping Re: Pentium Pro status Re: Pentium Pro status Re: Disk Striping Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: panic: ffs_valloc: dup alloc Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Re: Who needs Perl? We do! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kjell E Grotland Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:29:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM 57SLC Hopefully this is not too trivial a matter but i was wondering if it is possible to Run FreeBSD on an IBM 57SLC. The reason i ask is because apparently this is a machine on which IBM place its proprietary Micro Channel Bus system and i was wondering if it made a difference in installing the FreeBSD Operating system. If not underwhich type of hardware configuration should i install the operating system? Thank you for your help in this matter Kjell Kjell E. Grotland kegrotla@korrnet.org Where do you seek the Beloved? ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:10:02 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > > > That's all well and good, but it presents a chicken-and-egg situation > > for anyone trying to work outside the decades-old BSD model. You may > > not consider this a problem; I do. Opinions differ. > > Yes, but anyone capable of developing a 'cool tool' with TCL that we > can't live w/out is capable of installing a port, and *then* showing me > how wonderful it is to justify bringing in TCL as part of the base > system. > > Put the cart *before* the horse. Chicken->egg, egg->chicken? I can say that I wouldn't have undertaken what I have if Tcl wasn't a part of the standard system - too many people would say "but it needs Tcl, and I don't want to install that because ...". I figure that once it is clear that Perl is intended to be a part of the base system, and that it's a stable item not going anywhere, people should pick up and start using it. And the ultimate comeback is; if I'm wrong, and after 12 months nothing has made use of it and everybody hates it, it can go away again. At that point, there can be (even though there would be 8) no argument. > Nate - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Bill Fenner Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:47:26 PST Subject: Re: arpresolve errors In message you wri te: >I'll put a watcher program on >/var/log/messages to do a netstat -rn when it sees the arpresolve messages. Please do; it's likely to be the only way to track down why you're seeing them. Bill ------------------------------ From: Michael Smith Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:48:29 +1030 (CST) Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC Kjell E Grotland stands accused of saying: > Hopefully this is not too trivial a matter but i was wondering if it is > possible to Run FreeBSD on an IBM 57SLC. The reason i ask is because > apparently this is a machine on which IBM place its proprietary Micro > Channel Bus system and i was wondering if it made a difference in > installing the FreeBSD Operating system. If not underwhich type of > hardware configuration should i install the operating system? FreeBSD does not currently support Microchannel. If you need a Unix to run on that system, you may be able to get a PS/2 AIX to work. For FreeBSD, PCI is the bus of choice; EISA and ISA also work well. > Kjell E. Grotland - -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ ------------------------------ From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:52:38 -0700 Subject: Re: IBM 57SLC In message <199611220218.MAA16607@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes: : FreeBSD does not currently support Microchannel. If you need a Unix : to run on that system, you may be able to get a PS/2 AIX to work. There is also a Linux microchannel port, but I know not its stability or where to find it. : For FreeBSD, PCI is the bus of choice; EISA and ISA also work well. VLB works too! Gotta get me some more modern hardware... Warner ------------------------------ From: Steve Price Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:56:36 -0600 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Richard Wackerbarth wrote: > > <<< No Message Collected >>> Anybody have any idea why I have gotten about 20 of these in the last couple of hours? Is anybody else seeing this? Steve ------------------------------ From: FreeBSD Acct Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:37:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Disk Striping On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, michael butler wrote: > > It is, however, quite valid to stripe any one activity, such as scribbling > out the articles across multiple drives. You could, for example, use two > striped drives for the history stuff, one for the overview (only if you have > any readers) and two striped for the article spool to achieve what you're > after. Even better, split the two striped arrangements onto two separate > (SCSI) controllers, Our news servers here, are P166's with 128Mb each, with two Adaptec3940 PCI cards. There are four 4Gig drives, each has its own separage SCSI controller as the 3940 has two controllers per card. The drives are identical, and in a CCD array. The pair of news servers boots from IDE..and swaps on the IDE as well. *Yes, I know, the IDE isnt that fast for swap* But its rarely more than 20Mb into it anyway under INN 1.5pre. Compared to how we had the news farm before..the CCD is many many times faster and more efficient. Special thanks to Rod Grimes for suggesting a 64k block size on the CCD...you'll have to ask him why..he understands those FS kinda things... Geoff ------------------------------ From: Amancio Hasty Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:07:09 -0800 Subject: Re: Pentium Pro status Well, PPRO + 440FX is incompatible with a few chipsets mostly because the 440fx is PCI 2.0 . For instance, a friend of mine had horrible crashes with a diamond stealth and his 440fx when he switch to a matrox millenium the problem went away. The matrox meteor is supposed to generate an illegal PCI signal which kills the PCI bus on PPRO with the 440fx chipset. Memory aperture for speeding up raw displays is now the responsibility of the OS and not the BIOS so to get maximum display bandwith the OS or X server needs to program the chipset to disable caching on a given memory display region. Amancio >From The Desk Of Snob Art Genre : > On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Steven Wallace wrote: > > > > > I wanted some input regarding Pentium Pro machines. > > Has anyone had any problems with the hardware and/or using it with > > FreeBSD? > > > > Are there any problems with the PP chipset(is the latest Orion II or someth ing?) > > I remember hearing about PCI problems with the chipset. Someone > > told me they still have problems in orion II. Is this true? > > > > What motherboards for Pentium Pro are good and reliable? > > > > What about multiprocessor support? Does anyone have FreeBSD hacks to > > support multiple processors? How well is it working? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Steven Wallace > > I'm using a PPro-200 with the 440FX chipset, I don't remember its > nickname. I've had no problems with it at all. > > > > Ben > > ------------------------------ From: Amancio Hasty Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:36:31 -0800 Subject: Re: Pentium Pro status >From The Desk Of "Jin Guojun[ITG]" : > Pentinum. > Some more performance comparsion willbe found on: > > ftp://george.lbl.gov/pub/ccs/performance.ps (p6-7 for P<-->PP). > It will be updated whenever the new board/machines come in. Do you mind upgrading your P6 to FreeBSD-2.2 and then running the benchmarks. Tnks, Amancio ------------------------------ From: michael butler Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:29:54 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Disk Striping > Our news servers here, are P166's with 128Mb each, with two Adaptec3940 > PCI cards. > There are four 4Gig drives, each has its own separage SCSI controller as > the 3940 has two controllers per card. > The drives are identical, and in a CCD array. [ .. ] > Compared to how we had the news farm before..the CCD is many many times > faster and more efficient. With no readers (and therefore no need for .overview files all over the place to mess things up), this combo will *scream* along quite happily at better than 10 articles a second iff the accesses for history and articles are on separate CCD arrays on separate channels. Short of getting "async" mode to work properly, there's not much better. The general principle is .. Seeks cost a lot, which can be relieved by configuring drives (amalgamated or not) to operate on only one part of the data set (history or articles but not both). Rotational latency costs less and can be divided by distributing across N drives in a CCD array, michael ------------------------------ From: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:13:44 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! In reply to Michael Smith who wrote: > > Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > > > > > That's all well and good, but it presents a chicken-and-egg situation > > > for anyone trying to work outside the decades-old BSD model. You may > > > not consider this a problem; I do. Opinions differ. > > > > Yes, but anyone capable of developing a 'cool tool' with TCL that we > > can't live w/out is capable of installing a port, and *then* showing me > > how wonderful it is to justify bringing in TCL as part of the base > > system. > > > > Put the cart *before* the horse. > > Chicken->egg, egg->chicken? I can say that I wouldn't have undertaken > what I have if Tcl wasn't a part of the standard system - too many people > would say "but it needs Tcl, and I don't want to install that because ...". Because they dont have the space ?? :) > I figure that once it is clear that Perl is intended to be a part of the > base system, and that it's a stable item not going anywhere, people > should pick up and start using it. > > And the ultimate comeback is; if I'm wrong, and after 12 months nothing > has made use of it and everybody hates it, it can go away again. At > that point, there can be (even though there would be 8) no argument. THAT has proven almost NEVER to happen :( it will stay and rot in a corner if that happens. What is really scaring is the sheer size of our repository, half a year ago I could have the whole CVS tree plus all CTM patches and and obj tree on one 500M disk, now only the CVS tree fits there, no CTM patches, no obj tree. All this **** and we haven gotten any significant new functionality :( With this current trend, we'll all be so busy putting in/maintaining all those *cool tools*, that no real work will be done, and stagnation on that part is not exactly what we need. I still vote for ripping out the old (rottet) perl, and TCL, and then put it in ports where it belongs. I anybody does a multo graeto tool they want us to use, they can easily get it to install those tools from ports during thier own install, no excuse there either. Or we should invent a system (which could be based on the current contrib system), where its selectable if you want those tools and the utils that *might* depend on them. This solution I could live with, and I'm sure many of the other "purists"... - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. ------------------------------ From: Darius Moos Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:30:19 -0100 Subject: Re: Who needs Perl? We do! Sure ... but i tried to compile Perl-5.002 with "-DUNEXEC" so the "dump