From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 16 07:28:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA10524 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA10501; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 07:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zot.io.org (taob@zot.io.org [198.133.36.82]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA23092; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:27:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Steve Khoo cc: freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: 2.2-960501-SNAP and Digital DC21041 Ethernet - some errors. In-Reply-To: <199606130152.SAA15400@delphi.gordian.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, Steve Khoo wrote: > > I got a similar problem in 2.2-960501-SNAP. The SMC Etherpower 10/100 > cards in my P6 keep coming up in 100BaseT while it's only connected to > 10BaseT network. I used to have that problem with 2.1R, but the 2.2-SNAP seems to have fixed it for all our machines here (SMC 9332's, running on a 10Mbps network, ASUS P/I-P55TP4XEG motherboards). -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 16 17:57:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA02095 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA02073; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id JAA25120; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:56:40 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:56:40 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Brian Tao cc: Steve Khoo , freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2-960501-SNAP and Digital DC21041 Ethernet - some errors. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Brian Tao wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, Steve Khoo wrote: > > > > I got a similar problem in 2.2-960501-SNAP. The SMC Etherpower 10/100 > > cards in my P6 keep coming up in 100BaseT while it's only connected to > > 10BaseT network. > > I used to have that problem with 2.1R, but the 2.2-SNAP seems to > have fixed it for all our machines here (SMC 9332's, running on a > 10Mbps network, ASUS P/I-P55TP4XEG motherboards). You can set it explicitly by doing ifconfig de0 -link2. This is also in the mail archives. -mh From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 16 17:57:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA02158 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA02149 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id RAA23516 for hardware@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:57:47 -0700 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:57:47 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199606170057.RAA23516@kithrup.com> To: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Tape drive questions/recommendations Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My oldish DAT tape drive is dead. Bugger. So I've been looking at other tape drives today. A place called the Disk Drive Depot has an Archive drive of some sort, DAT, with a 4 tape autochanger. I don't know the model number yet, 'cause they were closed today. I can also get a Conner or HP DAT drive for <$600, new. Or I can get an ExaByte 2501 for a bit <$500. So... the Archive one, if it works and has a decent warranty, would be my preference (since I have all these DATs here that I've been doing backups on, and I'd like to be able to use them should I need to pull something off ;)), but I do want something reliable and that works flawlessly with FreeBSD. So, how about it, folks... anyone know anything about this Archive drive, or have preferences for the others? Thanks... Sean. From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 16 18:02:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA02457 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.io.org (post.io.org [198.133.36.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA02434; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zap.io.org (taob@zap.io.org [198.133.36.81]) by post.io.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26404; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:59:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:01:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Michael Hancock cc: Steve Khoo , freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2-960501-SNAP and Digital DC21041 Ethernet - some errors. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Michael Hancock wrote: > > You can set it explicitly by doing ifconfig de0 -link2. This is also in > the mail archives. I needed "-link2" for 2.1R, but not for 2.2-SNAP. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@io.org, taob@ican.net) Systems and Network Administrator, Internet Canada Corp. "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 16 19:44:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA06417 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA06411 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA13947; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:44:40 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606170314.MAA13947@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:44:39 +0930 (CST) Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606170057.RAA23516@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Jun 16, 96 05:57:47 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan stands accused of saying: > > My oldish DAT tape drive is dead. Bugger. Sadness. What brand? How did it die? > So I've been looking at other tape drives today. A place called the Disk > Drive Depot has an Archive drive of some sort, DAT, with a 4 tape > autochanger. I don't know the model number yet, 'cause they were closed > today. > > I can also get a Conner or HP DAT drive for <$600, new. Or I can get an > ExaByte 2501 for a bit <$500. Avoid Conner like the plague. Archive are OK, so are HP, so are Sony, so are the WangDAT units. The Exabyte is a pretty OK unit, but the 8mm mechanicals aren't quite as robust as the DATs. > So, how about it, folks... anyone know anything about this Archive drive, or > have preferences for the others? We're using Sony SDT5xxx units without any grief here; I support several sites with WangDAT units. The only problems they've had are that the units are fairly touchy about clean power, and many external drive boxes are just too rough on the 12V rail for their liking. > Sean. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 16 19:50:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA06787 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA06779 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id TAA25328; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:50:34 -0700 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:50:34 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199606170250.TAA25328@kithrup.com> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> My oldish DAT tape drive is dead. Bugger. >Sadness. What brand? How did it die? It *was* a modified Wang drive. It did not start out life as a SCSI drive -- there is a daughterboard attached to it with a SCSI interface. The scsi part seems to be what has died. I can put a tape in, and eject it by pressing the eject button, but it is not recognized by the 1542 during probing, and its access light (the only light it has ;)) never comes on. I figure that it is, basicly, dead. >> I can also get a Conner or HP DAT drive for <$600, new. Or I can get an >> ExaByte 2501 for a bit <$500. >Avoid Conner like the plague. Archive are OK, so are HP, so are Sony, so >are the WangDAT units. The Exabyte is a pretty OK unit, but the 8mm >mechanicals aren't quite as robust as the DATs. The ExaByte 2501 is, according to the freebsd hardware doc, not an 8mm drive. Merde merde merde merde merde. The Connor probably isn't, either, so that rules *that* out. That leaves the HP, which I *know* is a true DAT drive (I've had lots of experience, both good and bad :() with HP DAT drives. The Archive, again, I know nothing about, and Disk Drive Depot was closed today (bloody; I'll be going tomorrow). >We're using Sony SDT5xxx units without any grief here; I support several sites >with WangDAT units. The only problems they've had are that the units are >fairly touchy about clean power, and many external drive boxes are just too >rough on the 12V rail for their liking. Well, the Archive unit I saw was an external; other than that, I would prefer to get an internal unit (which is what my current [dead] drive is). One of my major concerns is price, obviously. The more I spend on a tape drive, the more of a problem I have with a monitor. NCA (a local store, for those who don't know ;)) has WangDAT units for close to $1k (a bit above it, I think). Sean. From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 16 19:58:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA07174 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA07169 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA14041; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:58:40 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606170328.MAA14041@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:58:39 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606170250.TAA25328@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Jun 16, 96 07:50:34 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan stands accused of saying: > > >> My oldish DAT tape drive is dead. Bugger. > >Sadness. What brand? How did it die? > > It *was* a modified Wang drive. It did not start out life as a SCSI drive > -- there is a daughterboard attached to it with a SCSI interface. Ooh! Is the daughterboard anything recognisable? (Does it have Emulex labels on it, for example?) > The scsi part seems to be what has died. I can put a tape in, and eject it > by pressing the eject button, but it is not recognized by the 1542 during > probing, and its access light (the only light it has ;)) never comes on. > > I figure that it is, basicly, dead. Sounds pretty final to me too. > >Avoid Conner like the plague. Archive are OK, so are HP, so are Sony, so > >are the WangDAT units. The Exabyte is a pretty OK unit, but the 8mm > >mechanicals aren't quite as robust as the DATs. > > The ExaByte 2501 is, according to the freebsd hardware doc, not an 8mm > drive. Merde merde merde merde merde. The Connor probably isn't, either, > so that rules *that* out. Hang on. I was under the impression that the 2501 was one of the single-board 8mm units; I make this mistake all the time. The 8xxx series are the 8mm units, so ignore the comment about 8mm mechanicals. > That leaves the HP, which I *know* is a true DAT drive (I've had lots of > experience, both good and bad :() with HP DAT drives. The Archive, again, I > know nothing about, and Disk Drive Depot was closed today (bloody; I'll be > going tomorrow). All of the units you've listed are 'true' 4mm DAT units. I'm no fan of Exabytes, as they have a fascist repair policy and their spare parts are astronomically expensive 8(, so keep on ignoring them 8) > One of my major concerns is price, obviously. The more I spend on a tape > drive, the more of a problem I have with a monitor. Natch. On those criteria, take the cheapest of the Archive/HP/Sony that you can get 8) > NCA (a local store, for those who don't know ;)) has WangDAT units for close > to $1k (a bit above it, I think). Ow! > Sean. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 16 20:37:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA09551 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA09543 for ; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA27129; Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:37:09 -0600 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:37:09 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606170337.VAA27129@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Sean Eric Fagan Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations In-Reply-To: <199606170057.RAA23516@kithrup.com> References: <199606170057.RAA23516@kithrup.com> Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So... the Archive one, if it works and has a decent warranty, would be my > preference (since I have all these DATs here that I've been doing backups > on, and I'd like to be able to use them should I need to pull something off > ;)), but I do want something reliable and that works flawlessly with > FreeBSD. > > So, how about it, folks... anyone know anything about this Archive drive, or > have preferences for the others? (aha0:6:0): "ARCHIVE:Python 25588-XXX:2.96" type 1 removable SCSI 2 st0(aha0:6:0): Sequential-Access density code 0x13, drive empty I don't use it alot, but it works well. Nate From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 01:23:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA25427 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA25406 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uVZbB-000QajC; Mon, 17 Jun 96 10:23 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA13761; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:23:49 +0200 Message-Id: <199606170723.JAA13761@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:23:49 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606170057.RAA23516@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Jun 16, 96 05:57:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan writes: > > So, how about it, folks... anyone know anything about this Archive drive, or > have preferences for the others? I have had a lot of HP DDS drives. With one exception, they all died within 8 months of installation. The one exception is the C1533 that replaced the original about 6 months ago. I am pretty sure that it'll die soon, too. I've heard of other people who have had this problem as well. Greg From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 07:40:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA22064 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA22048 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA06267; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:40:41 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:40:41 -0400 From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199606171440.KAA06267@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: sef@kithrup.com, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hardware References: <4q2cc1$12pl@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.hardware you write: >My oldish DAT tape drive is dead. Bugger. >So I've been looking at other tape drives today. A place called the Disk >Drive Depot has an Archive drive of some sort, DAT, with a 4 tape >autochanger. I don't know the model number yet, 'cause they were closed >today. >I can also get a Conner or HP DAT drive for <$600, new. Or I can get an >ExaByte 2501 for a bit <$500. >So... the Archive one, if it works and has a decent warranty, would be my >preference (since I have all these DATs here that I've been doing backups >on, and I'd like to be able to use them should I need to pull something off >;)), but I do want something reliable and that works flawlessly with >FreeBSD. I have been using Sony SDT-5000's for quite some time now, and I have to say they are one of the nicest DAT's I've used. Its a DDS-2 drive, and has a 1MB onboard cache, meaning this puppy streams at an honest 700K/sec while doing dumps/restores (unless of course you hit 200MB of gzips, then we drop down to about 350K/sec). I recommend them highly, although I think they may be a bit more expensive than the drives listed above. -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 08:01:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23401 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from persprog.com (persprog.com [204.215.255.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23392 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by persprog.com (8.7.5/4.10) id JAA11840; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:51:03 -0500 Received: from novell(192.2.2.201) by cerberus.ppi.com via smap (V1.3) id sma011837; Mon Jun 17 10:50:56 1996 Received: from NOVELL/SpoolDir by novell.persprog.com (Mercury 1.12); Mon, 17 Jun 96 10:47:18 +0500 Received: from SpoolDir by NOVELL (Mercury 1.12); Mon, 17 Jun 96 10:47:14 +0500 From: "David Alderman" Organization: Personalized Programming, Inc. To: Sean Eric Fagan , hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:47:13 EST Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Message-ID: <11742273747@novell.persprog.com> Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: Sean Eric Fagan > So I've been looking at other tape drives today. A place called the Disk > Drive Depot has an Archive drive of some sort, DAT, with a 4 tape > autochanger. I don't know the model number yet, 'cause they were closed > today. > > So... the Archive one, if it works and has a decent warranty, would be my > preference (since I have all these DATs here that I've been doing backups > on, and I'd like to be able to use them should I need to pull something off > ;)), but I do want something reliable and that works flawlessly with > FreeBSD. > > So, how about it, folks... anyone know anything about this Archive drive, or > have preferences for the others? > Drive Depot is also known as CSC or Corporate Systems Center. The drive you are referring to is a DDS changer. This means that you use DDS (2 Gig) tapes that support 4 Gig hardware compression. I have one here on an SCO system (don't hit me!) and it works fine. you can manually change tapes from a front panel controls or you can send it commands (if you have/write appropriate software) from the system. It has a front panel display that shows you the current status in text format so you know which tape is in and what it is doing. I believe Seagate/Conner/Archive has discontinued this drive in favor of a DDS-2 unit that costs more, but it is IMO a good value. If someone else has something good or bad to say about Archive DDS drives I would like to hear about it as well. With SCO, we sometimes get hangs on our older Archive DAT drives. I've been blaming this on the software (since I can't look at the source like some OS'es I use!). I have not seen this with FreeBSD at all. ====================================== When philosophy conflicts with reality, choose reality. Dave Alderman -- dave@persprog.com ====================================== From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 08:02:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23450 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from persprog.com (persprog.com [204.215.255.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23444 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by persprog.com (8.7.5/4.10) id JAA11845; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:57:34 -0500 Received: from novell(192.2.2.201) by cerberus.ppi.com via smap (V1.3) id sma011843; Mon Jun 17 10:57:22 1996 Received: from NOVELL/SpoolDir by novell.persprog.com (Mercury 1.12); Mon, 17 Jun 96 10:53:44 +0500 Received: from SpoolDir by NOVELL (Mercury 1.12); Mon, 17 Jun 96 10:53:30 +0500 From: "David Alderman" Organization: Personalized Programming, Inc. To: Michael Smith , hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, sef@kithrup.com Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:53:29 EST Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Message-ID: <1175CE021A8@novell.persprog.com> Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: Michael Smith > Avoid Conner like the plague. Archive are OK, so are HP, so are Sony, so > are the WangDAT units. The Exabyte is a pretty OK unit, but the 8mm > mechanicals aren't quite as robust as the DATs. As far as I know, Conner DAT drives are Archive (Archive was bought out by Conner which in turn was assimilated by Seagate). What brand appears on the drive is largely a matter of when it was manufactured, marketing, etc. I don't care much for Conner either but are you implying that DAT's made since the Conner branding are deficient? ====================================== When philosophy conflicts with reality, choose reality. Dave Alderman -- dave@persprog.com ====================================== From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 08:21:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA24446 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu (root@RICH.ISDN.BCM.TMC.EDU [128.249.250.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA24435 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from richc.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu (root@richc.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu [128.249.250.37]) by rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA06688; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:21:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (rich@localhost) by richc.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu (8.7.5/8.6.12) id KAA00678; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:21:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:21:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606171521.KAA00678@richc.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu> From: Rich Murphey To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: sef@kithrup.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199606170328.MAA14041@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:58:39 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations Reply-to: rich@rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk |All of the units you've listed are 'true' 4mm DAT units. I'm no fan of |Exabytes, as they have a fascist repair policy and their spare parts are |astronomically expensive 8(, so keep on ignoring them 8) Just for comparison, I just had a WangDAT 3200 repaired by the factor (now Tekmar) and they charged a flat fee of $300. I wonder how Sony and HP compare on repairs? If they are more reasonable I'd switch. Rich From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 09:42:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12401 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA12396 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id LAA13341; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:41:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:41:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199606171641.LAA13341@plains.nodak.edu> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, rich@rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations Cc: hardware@freebsd.org, sef@kithrup.com Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just for comparison, I just had a WangDAT 3200 repaired > by the factor (now Tekmar) and they charged a flat fee > of $300. I wonder how Sony and HP compare on repairs? > If they are more reasonable I'd switch. I had our Sony SDT-5000 cleaned and re-aligned for $250.00 about 6 months ago, and just this weekend she started to be weird again; hanging the SCSI when writing to the tape, but reading works fine. Back in 11/95, they estimated normal repairs to cost $285, and major repairs to cost $412. Considering the drive is worth about $700 I think these repair numbers are high. --mark. From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 18:03:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA13484 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns3.mke.ab.com (ns3.mke.ab.com [130.151.86.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA13465; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com ([130.151.17.154]) by ns3.mke.ab.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02194; Mon, 17 Jun 96 20:03:11 CDT Received: from slip1.ven.ra.rockwell.com (slip1.ven.ra.rockwell.com [130.151.17.162]) by zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA21669; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:02:39 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:02:39 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960617212013.1a17e424@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Organization: Rockwell Automation de Venezuela X-Sender: eparis@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: questions@FreeBSD.org, hardware@FreeBSD.org From: "Eloy A. Paris" Subject: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. I installed FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE a couple of weeks ago and since then I have been having programs exiting with signals 10 and 11, making my system too unstable to work as a dedicated e-mail server and as a PPP to Ethernet gateway. I get such errors with processor intensive tasks like compiling (I got errors like these while compiling the kernel, pppd and bind). My microprocessor is a Cyrix Cy486DLC running at a mother board clock rate of 33 MHz and an internal clock rate of 100 MHz. Today I disabled the internal cache of the CPU and the system is behaving quite stable since then but it is very very slooowwww. I got this error though: Jun 17 13:25:33 skynet /kernel: pid 2880: tr: uid 1000: exited on signal 11 but I want to think this is not related to my hardware problem :-( I have read the mail archives in www.freebsd.org and saw that someone said that he would hardly recommend getting a Cyrix microprocessor. Can someone tell me what could be wrong with my hardware setup and if I would do better getting a genuine Intel CPU? I am in deep trouble since I recommended to upgrade an old PC to a 486 instead of buying a new PC for this important piece of our Information Technology structure. This machine is going to be an e-mail server (sendmail + pop3) and a PPP to Ethernet gateway that will connect two buildings through a leased line. I NEED stability!!! I don't think there is a problem with the mother board because I have tried with two getting the same errors. My hardware setup is: Cyrix Cy486DLC CPU 16 Megs. of RAM 1 GByte IDE hard drive FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE Any hint will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Eloy.- -- Eloy A. Paris Global Technical Services Rockwell Automation de Venezuela Telephone: 58-2-9432311 Fax: 58-2-9430323 From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 18:07:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA13620 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA13615 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA21009; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:08:35 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606180138.LAA21009@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations To: rich@rich.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:08:33 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, sef@kithrup.com, hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606171521.KAA00678@richc.isdn.bcm.tmc.edu> from "Rich Murphey" at Jun 17, 96 10:21:02 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Rich Murphey stands accused of saying: > > |All of the units you've listed are 'true' 4mm DAT units. I'm no fan of > |Exabytes, as they have a fascist repair policy and their spare parts are > |astronomically expensive 8(, so keep on ignoring them 8) > > Just for comparison, I just had a WangDAT 3200 repaired > by the factor (now Tekmar) and they charged a flat fee > of $300. I wonder how Sony and HP compare on repairs? > If they are more reasonable I'd switch. Well, for comparison, Exabyte's fixed-price repair policy here in Australia is AUD$800 flat. I have a unit here with a dead 'CD' board (data seperator). It's about 2"x4", contains a handful of surface-mount logic and was quoted to me at AUD$700 replacement. As for the Sonys, we've never had to get them fixed, so I don't actually know what they're like. > Rich -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 18:17:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA14169 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA14164 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id SAA00342 for hardware@freebsd.org; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:17:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:17:32 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199606180117.SAA00342@kithrup.com> To: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk And the winner is: aha0 targ 5 lun 0: type 1(sequential) removable SCSI2 aha0 targ 5 lun 0: st0: density code 0x13, drive empty Internal unit; it's got a 4 tape cartridge for the autoloader (and the manual says I can get a 12 tape cartridge, if I feel a need ;)). Although it says it's an Archive Python, the documentation that came with it says it's a Connor. I spent a total of about two hours getting it set up; the first problem was getting the damned SCSI cable facing the right way. The second problem was that I had to remove the terminators from the tape drive -- with them in, all the SCSI busses said "Hi! Here's what I am:" but doing any I/O to anything other than the tape drive didn't work, and caused a controller timeout (funky that the new device worked ;)). Anyway, I fixed that, and then tested it by doing a level 0 backup; that seemed to work (although I haven't read the tape back yet to verify it). The doc didn't say whether it was DDS or DDS-2; it does have automagic LZW compression, but I don't think that that alone makes it DDS-2, no? One problem, that I also had with the previous tape drive: if it boots with a tape mounted, it says that the "density code" is 0x0; with the last one, that then meant that I would get an error when I wrote a tape. (This may be a problem with the 1.1++ SCSI driver, admittedly.) Sean. From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 18:58:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA16434 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA16429 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id SAA02818; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:58:48 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:58:48 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199606180158.SAA02818@kithrup.com> To: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.hardware In-Reply-To: <199606180117.SAA00342.kithrup.freebsd.hardware@kithrup.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199606180117.SAA00342.kithrup.freebsd.hardware@kithrup.com> I write: >One problem, that I also had with the previous tape drive: if it boots with >a tape mounted, it says that the "density code" is 0x0; with the last one, >that then meant that I would get an error when I wrote a tape. (This may be >a problem with the 1.1++ SCSI driver, admittedly.) Oh, yeah, I did want to mention the WORST part of the whole deal: twisting SCSI cables. My hard disks, of course, can be oriented right side up, or upside down. However, my CD-ROM drive and my tape drive have a definite "up" position -- and they each have pin1 of the SCSI connector on a different end! *grumble* It was enough to make me understand why people go with external units ;). Sean. From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 19:09:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA17178 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA17172; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:09:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199606180209.TAA17172@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606180158.SAA02818@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Jun 17, 96 06:58:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > Oh, yeah, I did want to mention the WORST part of the whole deal: twisting > SCSI cables. > > My hard disks, of course, can be oriented right side up, or upside down. > However, my CD-ROM drive and my tape drive have a definite "up" position -- > and they each have pin1 of the SCSI connector on a different end! *grumble* > It was enough to make me understand why people go with external units ;). the archive anaconda is the same way! this may be a characteristic problem with archive tape drives ;( jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 19:24:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18381 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.com (pegasus.com [140.174.243.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18376 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pegasus.com (8.6.8/PEGASUS-2.2) id QAA08672; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:24:23 -1000 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:24:23 -1000 From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) Message-Id: <199606180224.QAA08672@pegasus.com> In-Reply-To: Michael Smith "Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations" (Jun 18, 11:08am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: hardware@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk } > |All of the units you've listed are 'true' 4mm DAT units. I'm no fan of } > |Exabytes, as they have a fascist repair policy and their spare parts are } > |astronomically expensive 8(, so keep on ignoring them 8) } > } > Just for comparison, I just had a WangDAT 3200 repaired } > by the factor (now Tekmar) and they charged a flat fee } > of $300. I wonder how Sony and HP compare on repairs? } > If they are more reasonable I'd switch. } } Well, for comparison, Exabyte's fixed-price repair policy here in } Australia is AUD$800 flat. I have a unit here with a dead 'CD' board } (data seperator). It's about 2"x4", contains a handful of surface-mount } logic and was quoted to me at AUD$700 replacement. } The prices for Exabyte repair vary according to the model. Here are some outfits that repair Exabytes, some with flat-rate prices in U.S. Dollars for the 8200 8mm unit and the 4200 DAT: Vendor 8200 4200 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Disk Service, 805-499-6355 $195 $275 Digicad Corp., 714-724-8600 $200 $275 Global Data Center Inc. 800-200-1718 $195 $245 Nekton Technologies 818-335-4173 Aver 619-568-4351 -- Richard From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 19:52:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA19910 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns3.mke.ab.com (ns3.mke.ab.com [130.151.86.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA19883; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from by ns3.mke.ab.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB02477; Mon, 17 Jun 96 21:52:28 CDT Received: from slip1.ven.ra.rockwell.com (slip1.ven.ra.rockwell.com [130.151.17.162]) by zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA21896; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:51:35 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:51:35 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960617230901.3f870228@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Organization: Rockwell Automation de Venezuela X-Sender: eparis@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "M.R.Murphy" From: "Eloy A. Paris" Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? Cc: questions@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk El 06:38 PM 17/6/96 -0700, tu escribiste: >> My hardware setup is: >> >> Cyrix Cy486DLC CPU >> 16 Megs. of RAM >> 1 GByte IDE hard drive >> FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE >> > >What kind of memory do you have? What speed? What about cache? What speed? >Do you have BIOS options to introduce additional wait states? Have you >tried them? Hi, Thanks for your answer. I have one 16 MByte SIMM. I am not too sure but I think the speed is 70 nanoseconds. I used a different 16 MByte SIMM and got the same segmentation faults. I do not have external cache and hence it is disabled in the ROM BIOS setup. I disabled today the internal cache. There are some BIOS options (a couple of them) to introduce additional wait states. I think I tried them several days ago with no luck but I am going to try again. My kernel is configured just for the hardware I have (1 NE2000 Ethernet card, two serial ports, one printer port, UFS, PROC file system, NFS). My mother board has two PCI slots but PCI support is disabled in the kernel. The faults are random. When the internal cache is enabled, I can easyly reproduce the fault with: modload -u -o /tmp/saver_mod -e saver_init -q /lkm/star_saver_mod.o Of 5 commands like the above, at least one gives me a segmentation fault (the ld command, actually, that is being called by modload). >I should have asked in my previous mail: do you have a CPU cooler? Sure thing. This was the first thing that came to my mind. I have a good cooler and fan. The CPU is cold as ice. I read in the INSTALL doc. that you should avoid using the "entire disk" option with IDE hard drives in the partitioning part of the installation. I am using my entire IDE disk for FreeBSD (no other OS's). Can this be the problem? I don't think so but who knows? Today I got another program exiting with signal 11. The command was 'tr' that has nothing to do with nothing. The internal cache was disabled so I am starting to think there is something else BESIDES the CPU that is giving me a hard time. Probably if I try the wait states options ... Thanks. Eloy.- -- Eloy A. Paris Global Technical Services Rockwell Automation de Venezuela Telephone: 58-2-9432311 Fax: 58-2-9430323 From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 20:08:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA20567 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20558 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA22510; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:09:26 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606180339.NAA22510@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:09:25 +0930 (CST) Cc: sef@kithrup.com, hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199606180209.TAA17172@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Jun 17, 96 07:09:04 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler stands accused of saying: > > Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > > Oh, yeah, I did want to mention the WORST part of the whole deal: twisting > > SCSI cables. > > > > My hard disks, of course, can be oriented right side up, or upside down. > > However, my CD-ROM drive and my tape drive have a definite "up" position -- > > and they each have pin1 of the SCSI connector on a different end! *grumble* > > It was enough to make me understand why people go with external units ;). > > the archive anaconda is the same way! this may be a characteristic > problem with archive tape drives ;( Yecch! I was fairly sure the SCSI spec actually dictates which way up the cable is supposed to go; certainly I've mixed just about every brand of SCSI disk and some tapes and CDs and never had to do a twist... > Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 20:52:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22471 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server2.rad.net.id (root@server2.rad.net.id [202.154.1.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA22459 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from canary.iwan.org (iwan@dyn1194a.dialin.rad.net.id [202.154.6.194]) by server2.rad.net.id (8.7.5/RADNET) with SMTP id KAA21227 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:52:23 +0700 (WIB) Message-ID: <31C62A14.41C67EA6@rad.net.id> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:01:24 +0700 From: Iwan Leonardus Organization: skd X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: drivers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hello, I want some information: - Can we run TCP/IP on token ring cards, if can is there any driver for Madge Token Ring Card for FreeBSD - Is there any driver for PC-XNET (OST X.25 card). Actually I am thinking of make X.25 dial in server with virtual circuit, (1 port can handle up to 8 dial in virtual circuit. I is like a X.25 BBS. If there are none for PC-XNET maybe someone out there have a solution, or maybe there is a ready such a product. It is require for our prospective customer. But I like the solution for PC-XNET because we distribute that product here in my country. Thanks in advance and Best Regards Iwan Leonardus From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 20:55:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22628 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dtr.com ([205.139.102.212]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA22519; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from everest.dtr.com (everest.dtr.com [199.26.157.34]) by dtr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA03989; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:49:03 -0700 Received: (from bmk@localhost) by everest.dtr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA01232; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:48:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199606180348.UAA01232@everest.dtr.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? To: Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com (Eloy A. Paris) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Cc: questions@FreeBSD.org, hardware@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960617212013.1a17e424@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> from "Eloy A. Paris" at Jun 17, 96 09:02:39 pm From: "Brant M. Katkansky" Reply-To: bmk@fta.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I installed FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE a couple of weeks ago and since then I > have been having programs exiting with signals 10 and 11, making my system > too unstable to work as a dedicated e-mail server and as a PPP to Ethernet > gateway. [snip] I had one given to me not too long ago. Mine is plagued with various sig 10 and 11's, same as yours. Here's the interesting part - disabling the internal and external cache makes the problem worse. I'm going to replace it with something better. Sometimes free is not a very good price at all. :) From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 21:51:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA26070 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA26062; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA12553; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606180445.VAA12553@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Eloy A. Paris" cc: "M.R.Murphy" , questions@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 17 Jun 96 22:51:35 -0400. <2.2.16.19960617230901.3f870228@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:43:47 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Cyrix Cy486DLC CPU >>> 16 Megs. of RAM >>> 1 GByte IDE hard drive >>> FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE >I have one 16 MByte SIMM. I am not too sure but I think the speed is 70 >nanoseconds. I used a different 16 MByte SIMM and got the same segmentation >faults. 70ns should be fast enough for this generation of hardware. >There are some BIOS options (a couple of them) to introduce additional wait >states. I think I tried them several days ago with no luck but I am going to >try again. You should try setting them to their most conservative (slowest) settings. If you still get the same errors, your hardware is just badly designed -- no amount of tuning will fix it. >The faults are random. When the internal cache is enabled, I can easyly >reproduce the fault with: This just reconfirms my assertions. If it runs OK with the cache off, it's almost definitely bad caching logic in the motherboard. >I read in the INSTALL doc. that you should avoid using the "entire disk" >option with IDE hard drives in the partitioning part of the installation. I >am using my entire IDE disk for FreeBSD (no other OS's). Can this be the >problem? I don't think so but who knows? No, this is definitely a cache coherency or memory problem. It's possible you just have a cheap motherboard that doesn't have good enough cache circuitry to run something as demanding as unix. Have you tried anything else demanding on it, like Windows NT or OS/2 (or Linux or NetBSD)? If it's truly a 486DLC, you already have two strikes against you. And, you have to accept that there are some motherboards out there that Just Don't Work with a demanding operating system, unless you turn all the features off. My advice would be to send the motherboard back ASAP and buy something a little higher quality. If you're going to stick with a 486, get an ASUS motherboard (well, get an ASUS no matter what). Make sure the motherboard you buy takes a real 486, and not a DLC. Then you can plug in a 486 or one of the new 5x86 chips, and things should still work with FreeBSD. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jun 17 23:39:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA04419 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04406 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA24242; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:38:40 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606180708.QAA24242@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations To: dave@persprog.com (David Alderman) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:38:39 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, sef@kithrup.com In-Reply-To: <1175CE021A8@novell.persprog.com> from "David Alderman" at Jun 17, 96 10:53:29 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Alderman stands accused of saying: > > > From: Michael Smith > > > Avoid Conner like the plague. Archive are OK, so are HP, so are Sony, so > > are the WangDAT units. The Exabyte is a pretty OK unit, but the 8mm > > mechanicals aren't quite as robust as the DATs. > > As far as I know, Conner DAT drives are Archive (Archive was bought > out by Conner which in turn was assimilated by Seagate). What brand > appears on the drive is largely a matter of when it was manufactured, > marketing, etc. I don't care much for Conner either but are you > implying that DAT's made since the Conner branding are > deficient? Badge engineering and old models. Drives originally designed by Archive, or by the Archive people at Conner to be 'Archive' drives, or by the Archive people now with Seagate (if there are any) are more likely to be good units than those originally produced by Conner and the Conner team. Seagate never did tapes, so I don't know about the curent state of play with the 'Archive' name. > Dave Alderman -- dave@persprog.com -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 04:26:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA19865 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 04:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com ([206.26.1.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA19860; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 04:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com (daemon@localhost) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id GAA16318; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:28:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from orion.fa.tdktca.com ([163.49.131.130]) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id GAA16306; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:28:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from orion (alex@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.fa.tdktca.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA06649; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:29:45 -0500 Message-ID: <31C69327.32639FD9@fa.tdktca.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:29:43 -0500 From: Alex Nash Organization: TDK Factory Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bmk@fta.com CC: "Eloy A. Paris" , questions@FreeBSD.org, hardware@FreeBSD.org, hal@wwa.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? References: <199606180348.UAA01232@everest.dtr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brant M. Katkansky wrote: > > > I installed FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE a couple of weeks ago and since then I > > have been having programs exiting with signals 10 and 11, making my system > > too unstable to work as a dedicated e-mail server and as a PPP to Ethernet > > gateway. > > [snip] > > I had one given to me not too long ago. Mine is plagued with various > sig 10 and 11's, same as yours. > > Here's the interesting part - disabling the internal and external cache > makes the problem worse. This should be fairly easy to explain: You have bad SIMMs. While your program is running, erroneous results are returned from RAM and the processor tries to execute them. Your program subsequently seg faults due to an invalid instruction. If your cache works properly and your SIMMs don't, the cache can mitigate these effects since RAM accesses are less frequent (thus missing the odd inverted bit somewhere :) ). Disable the caches and now you will be much more likely to see a bad SIMM in action. Alex From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 04:47:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA20769 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 04:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA20764; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 04:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA18166; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:45:58 +0200 Message-Id: <199606181145.NAA18166@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? To: alex@fa.tdktca.com (Alex Nash) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:45:57 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: bmk@fta.com, Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, questions@FreeBSD.org, hardware@FreeBSD.org, hal@wwa.com In-Reply-To: <31C69327.32639FD9@fa.tdktca.com> from "Alex Nash" at Jun 18, 96 06:29:43 am From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Alex Nash who wrote: > > Brant M. Katkansky wrote: > > > > > I installed FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE a couple of weeks ago and since then I > > > have been having programs exiting with signals 10 and 11, making my system > > > too unstable to work as a dedicated e-mail server and as a PPP to Ethernet > > > gateway. > > > > [snip] > > > > I had one given to me not too long ago. Mine is plagued with various > > sig 10 and 11's, same as yours. > > > > Here's the interesting part - disabling the internal and external cache > > makes the problem worse. > > This should be fairly easy to explain: You have bad SIMMs. While your > program is running, erroneous results are returned from RAM and the > processor tries to execute them. Your program subsequently seg faults > due to an invalid instruction. If your cache works properly and your > SIMMs don't, the cache can mitigate these effects since RAM accesses are > less frequent (thus missing the odd inverted bit somewhere :) ). Disable > the caches and now you will be much more likely to see a bad SIMM in action. > Hmm, just to add another datapoint: I can run 2.1 on my 486DLC board, but -current will panic within 2 minutes with a page fault or semilar. I have a very strong feeling that our Cyrix/486DLC support leaves much to be desired, as I can make the system run better (not error free) if I disable the Cyrix code in locore.s. It seems that using the BIOS defaults (both caches on) runs alot better than what we are trying to do to it..... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 06:09:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25156 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns3.mke.ab.com (ns3.mke.ab.com [130.151.86.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA25149; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from by ns3.mke.ab.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB04625; Tue, 18 Jun 96 08:08:57 CDT Received: from pegasus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (pegasus.ven.ra.rockwell.com [130.151.17.156]) by zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA23123; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:08:16 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:08:16 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960618092603.301f7a92@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Organization: Rockwell Automation de Venezuela X-Sender: eparis@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tcg@ime.net From: "Eloy A. Paris" Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? Cc: hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Try this, Let me know what happens! >Bewarned! It'll probably sig 11 on ya! > >cd to?? I used /usr/local/bin >man -a * |& col -b > /tmp/junk.test > >The `*` is very important! It seems to work ok modified! >ie: man -a f* ... ... seems to work ok! > man -a * ... ... does not! What the heck??? It happened again!!! Look at this: Jun 18 01:31:57 skynet /kernel: pid 473: man: uid 1000: exited on signal 11 "man -a * |& col -b > /tmp/junk.test" dumped core on me and both internal and external caches where disabled!!! I am very confused now. I am gonna trash the whole dammed thing. Any suggestions? A memory problem perhaps? My memory does not have parity but I do not think that is the problem since I tried with a SIMM with parity and it happened. E.- -- Eloy A. Paris Global Technical Services Rockwell Automation de Venezuela Telephone: 58-2-9432311 Fax: 58-2-9430323 From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 06:14:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25376 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns3.mke.ab.com (ns3.mke.ab.com [130.151.86.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA25371; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from by ns3.mke.ab.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB04705; Tue, 18 Jun 96 08:13:44 CDT Received: from pegasus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (pegasus.ven.ra.rockwell.com [130.151.17.156]) by zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA23144; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:13:02 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:13:02 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960618093049.301ff69c@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Organization: Rockwell Automation de Venezuela X-Sender: eparis@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" From: "Eloy A. Paris" Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? Cc: hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>The faults are random. When the internal cache is enabled, I can easyly >>reproduce the fault with: > >This just reconfirms my assertions. If it runs OK with the cache off, >it's almost definitely bad caching logic in the motherboard. >. >. >. >No, this is definitely a cache coherency or memory problem. It's >possible you just have a cheap motherboard that doesn't have good >enough cache circuitry to run something as demanding as unix. Have >you tried anything else demanding on it, like Windows NT or OS/2 (or >Linux or NetBSD)? Well, I do not have an external cache. I was talking about the internal cache. That one is disabled. But anyway, what does the internal cache have to do with the mother board design? That is internal to the processor... The external cache is also disabled because I don't have one. I have not tried anything besides FreeBSD on this machine. Regards, Eloy.- -- Eloy A. Paris Global Technical Services Rockwell Automation de Venezuela Telephone: 58-2-9432311 Fax: 58-2-9430323 From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 06:39:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA26530 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maxinquaye.lava.de ([194.77.189.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA26513 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by maxinquaye.lava.de id m0uW11g-000h2aC; Tue, 18 Jun 96 15:41:00 +0200 (MET DST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13 #30.2) Message-Id: From: root@maxinquaye.lava.de (Maxinquaye Superuser) Subject: HELP: What ISDN card to use with FreeBSD? To: hardware@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:40:59 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: mickey@deadline.snafu.de X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! --- I'm planning to use a FreeBSD 2.2 Box as a router and ISDN Gateway, but I'm not quite sure which ISDN cards are currently working with FreeBSD and which do not. Here in Germany the TELES S0 card is very likely to be sold in the range of passive ISDN cards. Does this one work with FreeBSD, are there drivers which support this one? Any help appreciated. Regards, Mickey From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 07:15:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA28176 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-140.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.140]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA28167; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA01006; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:51:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606180851.KAA01006@vector.jhs.no_domain> X-Authentication-Warning: vector.jhs.no_domain: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler), sef@kithrup.com, hardware@freebsd.org, gj@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tape drive questions/recommendations From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:09:25 +0930." <199606180339.NAA22510@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:51:16 +0200 Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: Michael Smith > > Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > Oh, yeah, I did want to mention the WORST part of the whole deal: twisti - ng > > > SCSI cables. > > > My hard disks, of course, can be oriented right side up, or upside down. > > > However, my CD-ROM drive and my tape drive have a definite "up" position - -- > > > and they each have pin1 of the SCSI connector on a different end! *grumbl - e* > > Yecch! I was fairly sure the SCSI spec actually dictates which way up > the cable is supposed to go; The Prentice Hall SCSI NCR book doesnt say (no suprise, very thin book) > certainly I've mixed just about every > brand of SCSI disk and some tapes and CDs and never had to do a twist... I've seen the twist necessary: either on gj@freebsd.org or jkh@freebsd.org 's machine a few years ago, at least one of them had some 3" single slot disc that needed to run upside down, due to inverted scsi socket on the disc. Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 07:31:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA29312 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns3.mke.ab.com (ns3.mke.ab.com [130.151.86.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA29284; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from by ns3.mke.ab.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB05961; Tue, 18 Jun 96 09:31:01 CDT Received: from pegasus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (pegasus.ven.ra.rockwell.com [130.151.17.156]) by zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA23492; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:30:16 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:30:16 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960618104803.1597ca9a@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Organization: Rockwell Automation de Venezuela X-Sender: eparis@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "M.R.Murphy" From: "Eloy A. Paris" Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? Cc: questions@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Are you sure it's a 486DLC CPU? I have a system with a Cyrix 486DLC >(running System V R2), and it's a 40MHz part and is not clock-multiplied. >I also have a newer Cyrix486DX2/66 system (which will not run at 33MHz, >but is fine at 25MHz making it in reality a DX2/50). At 33MHz it gets >random odd hardware errors including both hangs and signal 4, 10 and 11. >I'm satisfied with it at 25MHz since it just acts as a PPP connection and >firewall and a DX2/50 is fast enough for that. Ooppss!!! You are absolutely right. My CPU is a 486DX4 NOT a 486DLC. The problem was that I was looking at what the kernel gives me at boot time: FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #2: Mon Jun 17 12:22:05 AST 1996 eparis@skynet.ven.ra.rockwell.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/SKYNET CPU: Cy486DLC (486-class CPU) Origin = "Cyrix" . . . The processor has "486DX4" written on top of it. My apologies for causing this confussion. >If it works sometimes and not others, then the probability of a hardware >problem is greater. I agree. This has to be a hardware problem, nothing more, nothing less. Can it be that the problem is that FreeBSD is mistakenly identifying the processor? Can I force FreeBSD to correctly identify the processor? Regards, Eloy.- -- Eloy A. Paris Global Technical Services Rockwell Automation de Venezuela Telephone: 58-2-9432311 Fax: 58-2-9430323 From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 07:47:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA00595 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns3.mke.ab.com (ns3.mke.ab.com [130.151.86.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA00572; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com ([130.151.17.154]) by ns3.mke.ab.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06194; Tue, 18 Jun 96 09:46:58 CDT Received: from pegasus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (pegasus.ven.ra.rockwell.com [130.151.17.156]) by zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA23553; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:46:38 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:46:38 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960618110424.1597f8b6@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Organization: Rockwell Automation de Venezuela X-Sender: eparis@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: questions@FreeBSD.org, hardware@FreeBSD.org From: "Eloy A. Paris" Subject: (correction) FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. >My microprocessor is a Cyrix Cy486DLC running at a mother board clock rate of >33 MHz and an internal clock rate of 100 MHz. My apologies: my microprocessor IS NOT a 486DLC, it's a 486DX4. Some people out there have pointed that out (thank you guys). I should have believed to what is written on top of the microprocessor and not to what the kernel says: FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #2: Mon Jun 17 12:22:05 AST 1996 eparis@skynet.ven.ra.rockwell.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/SKYNET CPU: Cy486DLC (486-class CPU) Origin = "Cyrix" . . . Summarizing, what I have is: Cyrix 486DX4 CPU (it says "IBM" on top of it but in the bottom it says "Cyrix") 16 Megs. of RAM 1 GByte IDE hard drive (entire disk for FreeBSD) No external cache FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE Getting signals 10 and 11 (mostly 11's) with internal cache enabled and disabled. More faults with the cache enabled. I do not know if the problem can be that FreeBSD thinks it is dealing with a kind of processor when in fact it is running on another type. Thanks. Eloy.- -- Eloy A. Paris Global Technical Services Rockwell Automation de Venezuela Telephone: 58-2-9432311 Fax: 58-2-9430323 From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 07:50:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA00856 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA00444; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA19146; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:45:41 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id RAA02224; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:45:40 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199606181445.RAA02224@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? To: Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com (Eloy A. Paris) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:45:40 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: tcg@ime.net, hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960618092603.301f7a92@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> from "Eloy A. Paris" at Jun 18, 96 09:08:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk # Any suggestions? Try another CPU -- Intel or AMD (AMD 5x86 strongly recommended, in case your motherboard supports it. If it doesn't, you may try jumper settings for Intel P24D -- theyr'e Ok for AMD 133 too) # A memory problem perhaps? Maybe. Or motherboard (what's it, by the way?) # My memory does not have parity # but I do not think that is the problem since I tried with a SIMM with parity # and it happened. I'm not aware of any recent 486 chipset which supports RAM parity. So SIMM either with or without parity -- it doesn't really matter, I think. -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 07:53:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA01171 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dtr.com ([205.139.102.204]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA01029; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from everest.dtr.com (everest.dtr.com [199.26.157.34]) by dtr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA05538; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:47:09 -0700 Received: (from bmk@localhost) by everest.dtr.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA02502; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:46:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199606181446.HAA02502@everest.dtr.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? To: alex@fa.tdktca.com (Alex Nash) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: bmk@fta.com, Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, questions@FreeBSD.org, hardware@FreeBSD.org, hal@wwa.com In-Reply-To: <31C69327.32639FD9@fa.tdktca.com> from "Alex Nash" at Jun 18, 96 06:29:43 am From: "Brant M. Katkansky" Reply-To: bmk@fta.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Brant M. Katkansky wrote: > > > > > I installed FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE a couple of weeks ago and since then I > > > have been having programs exiting with signals 10 and 11, making my system > > > too unstable to work as a dedicated e-mail server and as a PPP to Ethernet > > > gateway. > > > > [snip] > > > > I had one given to me not too long ago. Mine is plagued with various > > sig 10 and 11's, same as yours. > > > > Here's the interesting part - disabling the internal and external cache > > makes the problem worse. > This should be fairly easy to explain: You have bad SIMMs. While your > program is running, erroneous results are returned from RAM and the > processor tries to execute them. Your program subsequently seg faults > due to an invalid instruction. If your cache works properly and your > SIMMs don't, the cache can mitigate these effects since RAM accesses are > less frequent (thus missing the odd inverted bit somewhere :) ). Disable > the caches and now you will be much more likely to see a bad SIMM in action. That hadn't occurred to me - I was operating under the assumption that the board was garbage. I'll swap out the RAM and see what happens... From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 08:05:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01899 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01894; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA18563; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:05:29 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma018554; Tue Jun 18 15:04:59 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA19813; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:04:58 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:04:58 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199606181504.IAA19813@meerkat.mole.org> To: Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, hardware@FreeBSD.org, questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: (correction) FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi. > > >My microprocessor is a Cyrix Cy486DLC running at a mother board clock rate of > >33 MHz and an internal clock rate of 100 MHz. > > My apologies: my microprocessor IS NOT a 486DLC, it's a 486DX4. Some people > out there have pointed that out (thank you guys). > > I should have believed to what is written on top of the microprocessor and > not to what the kernel says: > > FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #2: Mon Jun 17 12:22:05 AST 1996 > eparis@skynet.ven.ra.rockwell.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/SKYNET > CPU: Cy486DLC (486-class CPU) > Origin = "Cyrix" > Drop the clock from 33MHz to 25MHz, reenable the internal cache, and see if the stability improves. I've encountered 2 Cyrix CPU's that were unstable at the speed marked on the chip. -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 08:13:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA02654 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.lenzi (callc.bsi.com.br [200.250.250.73]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA02604; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lenzi@localhost) by home.lenzi (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA02728; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:49:51 GMT Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:49:51 +0000 () From: "Lenzi, Sergio" X-Sender: lenzi@home To: "Eloy A. Paris" cc: questions@FreeBSD.org, hardware@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960617212013.1a17e424@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hell Eloy. I am one that "prefers" cyrix.. Ok if it is a dlc processor. I recoment you to disable only the external cache. The problem seems to be between the external cache controller and the dma logic. I have such a machine like yours with the external cache disable and the system works OK. Remember also to enable parity check on the memory banks. and check for slow refreshes option on the setup menu. Hope this will help. From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 08:32:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03768 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03738; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA26603; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:32:38 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA16018; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606181532.IAA16018@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Alex Nash cc: bmk@fta.com, "Eloy A. Paris" , questions@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org, hal@wwa.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 18 Jun 96 06:29:43 -0500. <31C69327.32639FD9@fa.tdktca.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:32:28 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > I installed FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE a couple of weeks ago and since then I >> > have been having programs exiting with signals 10 and 11, making my system >> > too unstable to work as a dedicated e-mail server and as a PPP to Ethernet >> > gateway. >> I had one given to me not too long ago. Mine is plagued with various >> sig 10 and 11's, same as yours. >> Here's the interesting part - disabling the internal and external cache >> makes the problem worse. >This should be fairly easy to explain: You have bad SIMMs. While your >program is running, erroneous results are returned from RAM and the >processor tries to execute them. Your program subsequently seg faults >due to an invalid instruction. This is a good candidate for the cause on the second guy's motherboard, since the problem gets worse when he turns off cache. >If your cache works properly and your >SIMMs don't, the cache can mitigate these effects since RAM accesses are >less frequent (thus missing the odd inverted bit somewhere :) ). Disable >the caches and now you will be much more likely to see a bad SIMM in action. This is typically the cause with motherboards that have 486DLC chips in them -- they're so cheap (usually just a 386 motherboard) that the cache coherency circuitry is bad to nonexistant. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 08:41:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA04414 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04381; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA26614; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:41:18 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA16069; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606181541.IAA16069@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: sos@freebsd.org cc: alex@fa.tdktca.com (Alex Nash), bmk@fta.com, Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, questions@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org, hal@wwa.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 18 Jun 96 13:45:57 +0200. <199606181145.NAA18166@ra.dkuug.dk> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:41:15 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Hmm, just to add another datapoint: >I can run 2.1 on my 486DLC board, but -current will panic within >2 minutes with a page fault or semilar. I have a very strong >feeling that our Cyrix/486DLC support leaves much to be desired, >as I can make the system run better (not error free) if I disable >the Cyrix code in locore.s. It seems that using the BIOS defaults >(both caches on) runs alot better than what we are trying to do >to it..... Actually, you shouldn't touch that DLC-specific code unless 1) you know what it does, 2) you have a non-traditional motherboard that has a chance of actually working. I believe that code was taken from NetBSD. If not, then what I'm about to say has no relevance. If it is, then I originally wrote it. CYRIX_CACHE_WORKS turns on the DLC cache, but in a mode where it flushes whenever a bus hold signal is asserted. This is intended for DLCs in 386 motherboards. Generally it works well only when there are no busmaster devices (like a completely IDE system). CYRIX_CACHE_REALLY_WORKS turns on the cache in fully-enabled mode. This should ONLY be used on motherboards specifically designed for a DLC where the cache coherency circuitry is known to work. But where the BIOS doesn't set the cache properly. You should NOT enable either of these features if your BIOS already does the right thing. Basically the root problem is twofold: 1) the kernel has _no_ way to know what the right thing to do is, because it can't know how your motherboard is designed, so it needs help by you setting the right option, and 2) the 486DLC is sometimes expected to do an impossible task: running in a 386 motherboard that has absolutely no support for cache coherency. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 08:48:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA04805 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04799; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA26626; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:48:24 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA16110; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606181548.IAA16110@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Eloy A. Paris" cc: hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 18 Jun 96 09:13:02 -0400. <2.2.16.19960618093049.301ff69c@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:48:14 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Well, I do not have an external cache. I was talking about the internal >cache. That one is disabled. But anyway, what does the internal cache have >to do with the mother board design? That is internal to the processor... The >external cache is also disabled because I don't have one. The CPU's internal cache requires the motherboard to help it with bus snooping and invalidating addresses that another bus-master on the bus writes. I. e. without help, if a bus-master writes something to memory that is also in the cache, the CPU has no idea that data has just become stale without help from the motherboard. So now there is data in the cache that is different from that same address' data in RAM. (Yes, I know there are smarter processors, but AFAIK this is how the 486DLC does it.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 08:57:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA05422 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA05407; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA18886; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:57:28 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma018884; Tue Jun 18 15:57:27 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA20006; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:57:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:57:26 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199606181557.IAA20006@meerkat.mole.org> To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, sos@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? Cc: alex@fa.tdktca.com, bmk@fta.com, Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, hal@wwa.com, hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Actually, you shouldn't touch that DLC-specific code unless 1) you > know what it does, 2) you have a non-traditional motherboard that has > a chance of actually working. > What do you think is a reasonable thing to do if Eloy's 486DX4/100 is being misidentified as a 486DLC? -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 08:59:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA05513 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA05493; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA26638; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:58:55 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA16170; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606181558.IAA16170@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Eloy A. Paris" cc: "M.R.Murphy" , questions@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 18 Jun 96 10:30:16 -0400. <2.2.16.19960618104803.1597ca9a@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:58:50 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Ooppss!!! You are absolutely right. My CPU is a 486DX4 NOT a 486DLC. The >problem was that I was looking at what the kernel gives me at boot time: >FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #2: Mon Jun 17 12:22:05 AST 1996 > eparis@skynet.ven.ra.rockwell.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/SKYNET >CPU: Cy486DLC (486-class CPU) > Origin = "Cyrix" Yeah, that's a bone-headed move on Cyrix' part. The DLC identification code was originally taken out of a piece of code used to identify DLC/SLC parts, published in a Cyrix manual. Then, the idiots went and made their DX processors respond the same way to the same test! >The processor has "486DX4" written on top of it. My apologies for causing >this confussion. >Can it be that the problem is that FreeBSD is mistakenly identifying the >processor? Can I force FreeBSD to correctly identify the processor? Unlikely. That message is just telling you what FreeBSD found. Unless someone has significantly changed the code since the last time I read it, the kernel should just be using the processor the way the BIOS sets it up. Keeping in mind that you have a DX processor, and are seeing those problems, you probably just have a badly designed motherboard, and that CPU might work OK in a better motherboard. Alternatively, you might be overheating the CPU if it's a 100MHz part. Make sure your CPU fan is securly fastened and makes uniform contact across the entire surface of the chip. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 09:06:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA06147 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA06140; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA26655; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:06:00 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA16254; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606181605.JAA16254@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "M.R.Murphy" cc: sos@freebsd.org, alex@fa.tdktca.com, bmk@fta.com, Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, hal@wwa.com, hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 18 Jun 96 08:57:26 -0700. <199606181557.IAA20006@meerkat.mole.org> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:05:54 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Actually, you shouldn't touch that DLC-specific code unless 1) you >> know what it does, 2) you have a non-traditional motherboard that has >> a chance of actually working. >What do you think is a reasonable thing to do if Eloy's 486DX4/100 is >being misidentified as a 486DLC? Get a different motherboard (ASUS highly recommended); get a different processor (AMD is very highly recommended -- I just got an AMD 5x86 and it works great in my 486 motherboard). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 09:50:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA08882 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA08877 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA27979; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:45:02 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199606181645.MAA27979@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606181558.IAA16170@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jun 18, 96 08:58:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > >Ooppss!!! You are absolutely right. My CPU is a 486DX4 NOT a 486DLC. The > >problem was that I was looking at what the kernel gives me at boot time: > >FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE #2: Mon Jun 17 12:22:05 AST 1996 > > eparis@skynet.ven.ra.rockwell.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/SKYNET > >CPU: Cy486DLC (486-class CPU) > > Origin = "Cyrix" > > Yeah, that's a bone-headed move on Cyrix' part. The DLC > identification code was originally taken out of a piece of code used > to identify DLC/SLC parts, published in a Cyrix manual. > > Then, the idiots went and made their DX processors respond the same > way to the same test! > > >The processor has "486DX4" written on top of it. My apologies for causing > >this confussion. > > >Can it be that the problem is that FreeBSD is mistakenly identifying the > >processor? Can I force FreeBSD to correctly identify the processor? Got the same thing on my IBM ThinkPad 365 -- but no stability problems with 2.0.5 or 2.1.0-RELEASE or -STABLE -- just went to -CURRENT (well the 5/1/96 -snap last night...) Bill From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 11:13:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA14433 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rwth-aachen.de (mail.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14428 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de) by mail.rwth-aachen.de (PMDF V5.0-4 #13110) id <01I626HIHI80002LJW@mail.rwth-aachen.de>; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:16:30 +0100 Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA10150; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:13:55 +0200 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:13:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Christoph P. Kukulies" Subject: Re: HELP: What ISDN card to use with FreeBSD? In-reply-to: To: mickey@deadline.snafu.de Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: Christoph Kukulies Message-id: <199606181413.QAA10150@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL16 (25)] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi! > --- > > I'm planning to use a FreeBSD 2.2 Box as a router and ISDN Gateway, > but I'm not quite sure which ISDN cards are currently working with FreeBSD > and which do not. Here in Germany the TELES S0 card is very likely to be > sold in the range of passive ISDN cards. Does this one work with FreeBSD, > are there drivers which support this one? There is bisdn-0.95 now (by Hellmuth Michaelis, Arne Helme, Gary Jennejohn et al., at ftp.muc.ditec.de, based in parts on it's predecessor by Dietmar Friede and Juergen Krause ). You may give this one a try. I've heard it's working well though still under beta, I believe - I'm still working with the old version (ISDN current_222) - shame on me :-) - but I'll switch over asap. > > Any help appreciated. > > Regards, Mickey > > --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 11:18:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA14840 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ime.net (ime.net [204.97.248.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14832; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kimiko.tcguy.net (buxton-20.ime.net [206.231.149.29]) by ime.net (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA10137; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <31C6F2D8.1932@ime.net> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:18:00 -0400 From: Gary Chrysler Reply-To: tcg@ime.net Organization: The Computer Guy X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eloy A. Paris" CC: questions@FreeBSD.org, hardware@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: (correction) FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? References: <2.2.16.19960618110424.1597f8b6@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eloy A. Paris wrote: > > > My apologies: my microprocessor IS NOT a 486DLC, it's a 486DX4. Some people > out there have pointed that out (thank you guys). > Awe, Set the board to 25MHz. Re-Enable your cache! Gary ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Improve America's Knowledge... Share yours The Borg... Where minds meet (207) 929-3848 From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 13:57:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA26204 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pancake.remcomp.fr (pancake.remcomp.fr [194.51.30.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA26187; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aida (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aida (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA00481; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:52:16 +0200 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:52:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: didier@aida.org To: "Brant M. Katkansky" cc: "Eloy A. Paris" , questions@FreeBSD.org, hardware@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? In-Reply-To: <199606180348.UAA01232@everest.dtr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Brant M. Katkansky wrote: > > I installed FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE a couple of weeks ago and since then I > > have been having programs exiting with signals 10 and 11, making my system > > too unstable to work as a dedicated e-mail server and as a PPP to Ethernet > > gateway. > > [snip] > > I had one given to me not too long ago. Mine is plagued with various > sig 10 and 11's, same as yours. > > Here's the interesting part - disabling the internal and external cache > makes the problem worse. > > I'm going to replace it with something better. Sometimes free is not > a very good price at all. :) > try to replace the 80387 numeric coprocessor by Cyrix one -- Didier Derny | Private FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE Site Email: didier@aida.org | Microsoft Free Computer. Homepage: http://www.codix.fr/~dderny | AMD 5x86-160 on a ASUS PVI-486SP3 From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 16:03:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA07071 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA07039; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA11374; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:59:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606182259.PAA11374@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? To: Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com (Eloy A. Paris) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:59:16 -0700 (MST) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960618093049.301ff69c@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> from "Eloy A. Paris" at Jun 18, 96 09:13:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, I do not have an external cache. I was talking about the internal > cache. That one is disabled. But anyway, what does the internal cache have > to do with the mother board design? That is internal to the processor... The > external cache is also disabled because I don't have one. > > I have not tried anything besides FreeBSD on this machine. When you do bus mastering DMA from a controller card (ethernet, video capture, or disk), the controller directly writes to system memory rather than using the processor to copy data from memory on the card to your system memory. This offloads I/O processing to the card, freeing the CPU to run code, do calculations, etc.. This is why DMA controllers are better than programmed I/O controllers, and is one of the fundamental reasons UNIX people are so pro SCSI and so anti-IDE. Yes, there are some IDE controller that do DMA, but they are nearly impossible to detect without crashing those that don't do DMA, and so you can't build generic code for them without serious manufacturer documentation, like ROM recognition algorithms. When you have a cache (internal or external), then the processor fetches data from the cache instead of hitting the memory bus (internal) or from the cache instead of potentially hitting I/O wait states associated with real memory (external). Because the processor will prefer these caches, when you DMA, you have to tell the cache controller circuitry (for an external cache) that the cache is out of date, or the processor (for an internal cache) that the cache is out of date. Really, what you are telling it is "this region of memory has changed", and it decides what to do from there. The best cache hardware will say "I'd better reload that data from memory". This is called "cache update". Working cache hardware that isn't quite the best will say "I'd better throw the data away, and if it's referenced again (which it will be, when the I/O completion interrupt triggers running the code that asked for the read in the first place), I'll reload it". This is called "cache invalidation". There are motherboards, which can't be simply identified by manufacturer, since manufacturers revise them without telling anyone, that do not have working cache circuitry. This can be an inherent design flaw (like the original Saturn I, Neptune, and Mercury PCI chipsets from Intel, sold in early Gateway and Dell 60/66 MHz P5 systems) in the chipset, or it can be a motherboard design flaw (it's just not hooked up), or it can be a "feature": VESA Local Bus [VLB] systems won't signal a DMA to the cache logic unless the VESA controller is in a "master" slot. Which slot, if any, is a "master" is undocumented; this is one of the fundamental reasons UNIX people are so violently anti-VESA/VLB. A motherboard flaw can affect the external cache only, the internal cache only, or both. If both are affected, you are using a VESA/VLB card, a PCI card with a flawed chipset, or the motherboard is simply broken. "The Cyrix problem" is actually a Cyrix/TI problem. Cyrix and TI built a chip with an internal cache. Cyrix has since signed a deal with IBM to use their "blue lightening" chip masks, and chips build using the IBM design (Cyrix is still selling chips built using the old design) don't have the problem. Of course, it's hard to tell which chips have the problem, other than "it is a Cyrix/TI chip" or "it isn't a Cyrix/TI chip". "The Cyrix problem" has two stories: the first is that the chip was built to be plugged into 386 slots, and 386's don't have a cache change notification pin. So there is absolutely no way to tell the chip that the memory it has cached is no good. Even if there was, the motherboard doesn't expect to have the ability to tell the processor that the cache is invalid, so there is no circuitry, even if there was a pin. The second story is that the chips don't honor the "non-cacheable" bit, so even if you write Cyrix-knowledgable routines, you are still screwed. What can BSD do? 1) The Cyrix chips are detectable, and you can turn the internal cache off: "The Undocumented PC", Frank Van Gilluwe, Addison Wesley publishing, ISBN 0-201-62277-7 If you do this, you will lose performance, but anything that works is better than anything that doesn't. 2) If the chip supports it, you can mark the pages non-cacheable, or, alternately, manually invalidate them on DMA completion using BINVD. This assumes you can detect the cache failure, so you know to turn the code on (you don't want it on all the time, since it reduces performance). 3) Also assuming DMA failure is somehow detectable, you can have two versions of every driver so you can use PIO instead of DMA. This is a *huge* performance hit in many cases. 4) You can replace the faulty hardware. Generally, soloutions 1-3 have not been implemented. Linux implements soloution 1. Solutions 2 and 3 require detecting DMA hardware, then forcing a situation where the DMA failure is detectable -- not an easy thing in all cases, or with all type of hardware. For small caches, it means adding a "frob" to the driver in case it's the only DMA device in the machine, and using the frob to avoid LRU'ing the test data out of the smallest possible L1 and L2 caches that you might want to test. Most people will recommend solution 4, rather than track down the hardware errors. The problem with implementing any of 1-3 is that it would take knowledgable people intentionally buying broken hardware for it to be possible to test -- and that just isn't going to happen for most of us, who can barely afford good hardware, let alone blow money on broken hardware for testing. Hope this clears things up. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 16:13:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA07790 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA07776; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA11403; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:10:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606182310.QAA11403@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:10:19 -0700 (MST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.ORG, alex@fa.tdktca.com, bmk@fta.com, Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, hal@wwa.com In-Reply-To: <199606181541.IAA16069@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jun 18, 96 08:41:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Basically the root problem is twofold: 1) the kernel has _no_ way to > know what the right thing to do is, because it can't know how your > motherboard is designed, so it needs help by you setting the right > option, and 2) the 486DLC is sometimes expected to do an impossible > task: running in a 386 motherboard that has absolutely no support for > cache coherency. Actually, #1 is possible. 1) You know you have a DMA device 2) You have enough memory to read to cause the cache to flush (or if the processor supports BINVD, use that, or you can two stage it, by turning the caching off on some chips) 3) You DMA from two areas on the disk, verifying that the areas differ by flushing the target memory from the cache, with a memory roll-through or BINVD 4) You two's complement the data after setting up duplicate transactions but not initiating them (to avoid accidently flushing the target memory after the two's complement by way of executing too much driver code) 5) You trigger the test DMA's 6) You see if the memory are contains the complemented or the actual data This can be a pain, since minimizing the code path for trigger after setup can require significant driver changes. Alternately, you could build a DMA test card that wrote data to real memory locations which you can preset via outb. This would be good, but it not a general soloution. Rod could use a card like this, or he chould write code to make an Adaptec controller and a small pattern-containing SCSI disk act the same way -- but he's an OEM, and can afford the overhead for the benefit. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 16:19:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08333 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA08311; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA11417; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:13:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606182313.QAA11417@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? To: mrm@marmot.Mole.ORG (M.R.Murphy) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:13:49 -0700 (MST) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, sos@freebsd.org, alex@fa.tdktca.com, bmk@fta.com, Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, hal@wwa.com, hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606181557.IAA20006@meerkat.mole.org> from "M.R.Murphy" at Jun 18, 96 08:57:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Actually, you shouldn't touch that DLC-specific code unless 1) you > > know what it does, 2) you have a non-traditional motherboard that has > > a chance of actually working. > > What do you think is a reasonable thing to do if Eloy's 486DX4/100 is > being misidentified as a 486DLC? Ignore it because it can't make the code act detrimentally? The only room for fatal error would be if the DLC was being seen as a DX4 *and* we had DLC-specific cache management code that *wasn't* being correctly triggered to take care of the DLC non-cacheable-bit honoring bug or the no-bus-snoop bug. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 20:29:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26824 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns3.mke.ab.com (ns3.mke.ab.com [130.151.86.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA26721; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from by ns3.mke.ab.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AB13698; Tue, 18 Jun 96 22:29:12 CDT Received: from slip1.ven.ra.rockwell.com (slip1.ven.ra.rockwell.com [130.151.17.162]) by zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA26673; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:27:18 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:27:18 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960618234526.258f136e@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com> Organization: Rockwell Automation de Venezuela X-Sender: eparis@zeus.ven.ra.rockwell.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: questions@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org From: "Eloy A. Paris" Subject: My Cyrix microprocessor/motherboard problems Cc: Gary Chrysler , "Lenzi, Sergio" , "M.R.Murphy" , "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" , sos@freebsd.org, Terry Lambert , Didier Derny , Alex Nash , "Andrew V. Stesin" , "Brant M. Katkansky" , "David Alderman" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello everyone. I would like to thank all of you guys that have helped me out with the problems I am experiencing with my Cyrix 486DX4/100 and my motherboard. They are bombing my processes with signals 10 (bus error) and 11 (segmentation fault) - almost all of them are 11. I am very impressed with the amount of responses I have received (29 so far) in less than 24 hours. All people that have sent suggestions and comments to me are in the "Cc:" field of this message. Thank you all!! The problem still persist after trying every single suggestion you gave me that was not a hardware change (microprocessor or motherboard.) I played with things like wait states, clock rates in the motherboard, internal and external caches disables and enables, kernel recompilation to have the needed devices, etc. Someone told me about a bug in 2.1.0-RELEASE but I personally do not think this is the cause of my problem. I have a Dell Latitude XPi notebook with a Pentium 90 and running FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE and it has NEVER given to me any bus error or segmentation faults. The same person that told me about the bug told me to get the latest 2.1.0-stable but he also pointed out that the problems would still persist because they seem to be hardware related. I, as I think everybody else does, agree. I recognize I have a cheap motherboard. I need and want to solve this problem so my action items for the following days are (in order): 1) Replace the Cyrix 486DX4 with a genuine Intel DX4. 2) If this still gives segmentation faults, the problem is not the CPU or it is a combination of both the Cyrix and the motherboard so I am going to take my IDE harddrive with FreeBSD to another machine with an Intel DX2/66 with a motherboard I know that works (it's a Digital computer, like one that has been running Linux for about a year now with no problems - very good quality). I want to test my FreeBSD installation just to be sure. This should work so my next action item will be: 3) Get a different motherboard, one of good quality. I'll try to test the Cyrix DX4 on it just to know if the problem is the microprocessor or the motherboard. These 3 action items should take me to the solution or at least help us to find out who is causing the problems. These action items depend on how helpful my hardware vendor will be :-( I am going to use minimal hardware on these tests: my 1 Gig. hard drive, two serial ports, one parallel port and 16 Megs. of RAM. No external caches (because I do not have any). The problem is very easy to reproduce: just recompile the kernel, bind or elm or just the command "cd /usr/local/bin; man -a *|col -b > /var/tmp/junk_test" (as suggested by Gary Chrysler ). I will keep y'all informed of any progress. See ya!!! Eloy.- -- Eloy A. Paris Global Technical Services Rockwell Automation de Venezuela Telephone: 58-2-9432311 Fax: 58-2-9430323 From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jun 18 21:25:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA09247 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (root@gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA09233 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by gallup.cia-g.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA29546 for ; Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:26:07 -0600 Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:26:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Stephen Fisher To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: 3c509 problem Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, I'm having a problem with a 3com 3c509 combo card. When I stick the card in and boot up FreeBSD (2.1R) it gives the message: 1 3C5x9 board(s) on ISA found at 0x300 ep0: 3c5x9 at 0x300 in test mode, Erase pencil mark! ep0: eeprom failed to come ready. epprobe: ignoring model ffff ep0 not found at 0x300 Thus no ep0 device is available for ifconfig. I have tried two different slots and two different 3c509 cards to no avail. However, the weird thing is when I put in a non combo 3c509 (Just AUI & 10BaseT ports, no BNC) it works fine (not good when you run BNC on your network, have to use a transciever). I remember seeing mention of this error a while back, but could not remember nor dig up any additional information on it. Any ideas? TIA, - Steve From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jun 19 01:53:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26009 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-150.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA25961; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA24312; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:06:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606190006.CAA24312@vector.jhs.no_domain> X-Authentication-Warning: vector.jhs.no_domain: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: mickey@deadline.snafu.de cc: hardware@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HELP: What ISDN card to use with FreeBSD? From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:40:59 +0200." Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:06:17 +0200 Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: root@maxinquaye.lava.de (Maxinquaye Superuser) > Reply-to: mickey@deadline.snafu.de > Subject: Re: HELP: What ISDN card to use with FreeBSD? > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:40:59 +0200 (MET DST) > Message-id: > > Hi! > --- > > I'm planning to use a FreeBSD 2.2 Box as a router and ISDN Gateway, > but I'm not quite sure which ISDN cards are currently working with FreeBSD > and which do not. Here in Germany the TELES S0 card is very likely to be > sold in the range of passive ISDN cards. Does this one work with FreeBSD, > are there drivers which support this one? > > Any help appreciated. > > Regards, Mickey Yes Teles S0 is OK, I'm a lurker on isdn@muc.ditec.de, I suggest you enroll, There's an alias for -request linked to majordomo on muc.ditec.de I suggest you explore ftp://ftp.muc.ditec.de/isdn Don't ask me more I'm just a lurker ;-) Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jun 19 02:17:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA28275 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net ([205.198.82.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA28255; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id FAA02005; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:16:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199606190916.FAA02005@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: sos@freebsd.org cc: alex@fa.tdktca.com (Alex Nash), bmk@fta.com, Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, questions@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org, hal@wwa.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: FreeBSD works with Cy486DLC processors? In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:45:57 +0200. <199606181145.NAA18166@ra.dkuug.dk> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:16:26 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606181145.NAA18166@ra.dkuug.dk>you write: >In reply to Alex Nash who wrote: >> >> Brant M. Katkansky wrote: >> > >> > > I installed FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE a couple of weeks ago and since then I >> > > have been having programs exiting with signals 10 and 11, making my system >> > > too unstable to work as a dedicated e-mail server and as a PPP to Ethernet >> > > gateway. >> > >> > [snip] >> > >> > I had one given to me not too long ago. Mine is plagued with various >> > sig 10 and 11's, same as yours. >> > >> > Here's the interesting part - disabling the internal and external cache >> > makes the problem worse. >> >> This should be fairly easy to explain: You have bad SIMMs. While your >> program is running, erroneous results are returned from RAM and the >> processor tries to execute them. Your program subsequently seg faults >> due to an invalid instruction. If your cache works properly and your >> SIMMs don't, the cache can mitigate these effects since RAM accesses are >> less frequent (thus missing the odd inverted bit somewhere :) ). Disable >> the caches and now you will be much more likely to see a bad SIMM in action. >> > >Hmm, just to add another datapoint: >I can run 2.1 on my 486DLC board, but -current will panic within >2 minutes with a page fault or semilar. I have a very strong >feeling that our Cyrix/486DLC support leaves much to be desired, >as I can make the system run better (not error free) if I disable >the Cyrix code in locore.s. It seems that using the BIOS defaults >(both caches on) runs alot better than what we are trying to do >to it..... >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team > So much code to hack -- so little time. > You might try reinserting the SIMMS. I remember that we bought tons of expansion SIMMs for hundreds of computers, and not once did an original or memory upgrade SIMM become defective even after years of use. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jun 19 05:20:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA10309 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA10283; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 05:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA24229; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:16:16 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199606191216.IAA24229@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-hardware@freefall.FreeBSD.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606190434.VAA18294@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jun 18, 96 09:34:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > >Can anyone comment on the stability of these chips? > >It will be running FreeBSD-stable 2.1.0 > > AMD chips are awesome. They will work correctly with every > motherboard that runs correctly with Intel chips. > > The new Cyrix 6x86 (Pentium replacement) is supposed to be a great > chip from all I've read. It's definitely faster than a Pentium at the > same clock speed (don't be fooled by the P-rating, though). I'm > pretty temted to get one since it's a good alternative to Intel. > > AMD's K5 (their "6x86-ish" chip) is behind and is just coming out in > 100MHz versions. I'm sure it'll be a great chip too when they can > finally produce fast versions of them in large quantities. > > The Cyrix 5x86 sounds nice too. It actually has some design > enhancements beyond a normal 486. (The "5x86" chips are designed for > a 486 socket and motherboard.) The AMD 5x86 is just a 486DX4 with a > 16K write-back cache and quad-clock instead of tripled clock. Still, > it's a hellishly fast 486. The AMD 5x86 133MHz is supposed to be > ~75MHz Pentium in performance. OK -- sounds great to me... I've got two 486/33's on older ISA Micronics motherboards that need a shot in the arm (or a kick in the butt) speedwise. These are 5 volt motherboards designed around the 486/33 clock speed. Is there any guarantee that any of these chips will work correctly. I've been told that the only thing that should work for sure is the Intel 486DX2/66. I'd love to go to the AMD 586 -- anyone have any experience with these in older motherboards with the Voltage Regulator sockets? Bill From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jun 19 11:12:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA07060 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yucca.cs.odu.edu (root@yucca.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA07040; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 11:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fog.cs.odu.edu (bowden@fog.cs.odu.edu [128.82.4.35]) by yucca.cs.odu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.4) with SMTP id OAA02164; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:06:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" , freebsd-hardware@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips In-Reply-To: <199606191216.IAA24229@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > OK -- sounds great to me... I've got two 486/33's on older ISA Micronics > motherboards that need a shot in the arm (or a kick in the butt) > speedwise. These are 5 volt motherboards designed around the 486/33 > clock speed. Is there any guarantee that any of these chips will work > correctly. I've been told that the only thing that should work for sure > is the Intel 486DX2/66. > > I'd love to go to the AMD 586 -- anyone have any experience with these > in older motherboards with the Voltage Regulator sockets? > > Bill > You will ned to get a 3 volt motherboard. 486 MB's are real cheap right now, splurge on a nice new MB. $200 US for MB and chip from alot of retailers. Jamie I have my finger on the pulse of the planet. From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jun 19 12:33:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11270 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11265; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA28906; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:33:13 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA16463; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606191933.MAA16463@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: freebsd-hardware@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 19 Jun 96 08:16:15 -0400. <199606191216.IAA24229@shell.monmouth.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:33:10 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'd love to go to the AMD 586 -- anyone have any experience with these >in older motherboards with the Voltage Regulator sockets? That's what I'm using. I have an EISA motherboard, and they never considered the market big enough to update the BIOS even for 486DX4s. It seems to be working OK for me. You might want to double-verify with who you buy them from that you could swap the VRs and chips for 486DX2/66's just in case it doesn't work out, though. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 00:59:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA24948 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from next.com (next.com [129.18.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA24943 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 00:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from day by femail.NeXT.COM (NX5.67f1/NeXT0.1-Aleph (CST $Revision: 1.17 $ $State: Exp $ amm)) id AA16514; Thu, 20 Jun 96 00:58:45 -0700 From: Dan Grillo Message-Id: <9606200758.AA16514@femail.NeXT.COM> Received: by day.next.com (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X ($Revision: 1.11 $ $State: Exp $)) id AA09033; Thu, 20 Jun 96 00:58:39 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 00:58:39 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Organization: Information Services, NeXT Software, Inc. To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: driver for Xircom Netwave? Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Versions: dmail 2.0k/makemail 2.8j Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk HOSOKAWA Tatsumi writes: > Dan_Grillo@next.com writes: > >> Is there a FreeBSD driver for the Xircom Netwave PCMCIA wireless > >> lan card? (http://www.xircom.com/Products/nw.html) > > Pls don't ask me about Xircom's cards, ask Xircom instead :-). Are you having problems getting documentation for the cards from Xircom? --Dan -- Dan Grillo dan@next.com 415 780-2963 new office - Blg1 Rm163 From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 01:33:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26699 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA26689 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA06012; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:35:10 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606200905.SAA06012@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: driver for Xircom Netwave? To: Dan_Grillo@next.com (Dan Grillo) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:35:09 +0930 (CST) Cc: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <9606200758.AA16514@femail.NeXT.COM> from "Dan Grillo" at Jun 20, 96 00:58:39 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dan Grillo stands accused of saying: > HOSOKAWA Tatsumi writes: > > Dan_Grillo@next.com writes: > > >> Is there a FreeBSD driver for the Xircom Netwave PCMCIA wireless > > >> lan card? (http://www.xircom.com/Products/nw.html) > > > > Pls don't ask me about Xircom's cards, ask Xircom instead :-). > > Are you having problems getting documentation for the cards from Xircom? Xircom refuse to release programming documentation without NDA, and are generally regarded as scum in the free software community due to their inappropriate use of free code (from the CRYNWYR packet driver IIRC). If they were to take a leaf out of Diamond's book, I'm sure they'd be welcomed back, but as it is nobody wants to touch their stuff. > --Dan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 01:34:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26855 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA26844 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 01:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA06021 for hardware@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:37:08 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606200907.SAA06021@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Crystal CS8900 ISA Ethernet controller To: hardware@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 18:37:07 +0930 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just as a point of reference, the programming manual for this beastie (an all-in-one ISA Ethernet controller) just appeared on my desk. It looks like a possible for single-board systems or cheap ISA ethernet cards, so if it's of any use, feel free to ask for a copy. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 03:24:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA03105 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zyqad.co.uk (zyqad.demon.co.uk [158.152.135.161]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA03020; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by zyqad.co.uk; (5.65/1.1.8.2/21Apr95-0317PM) id AA21219; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:35:29 +0100 Message-Id: <9606200835.AA21219@zyqad.co.uk> To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: More questions following SUCCESSFUL Installation Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 09:35:29 +0100 From: "John Richards" X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello all, Thanks for all the answers to my previous question regarding Hitachi Atapi CDrom and FreeBSD. I now have my machine up and working. The details are: Intel 486DX33 Pine Technology VESA Mbd 8MB memory - 8 * 30 pin 1MB chips 200MB Western Digital IDE HD - primary master, DOS + FreeBSD with boot manager 250MB WD IDE HD - primary slave, FreeBSD with boot manager 1.2 GB WD IDE HD - secondary master, FreeBSD Hitachi 4x Atapi CDROM - secondary slave 3.5" Floppy Pine Technology 1MB VESA Cirrus graphics card Quite an old machine but it does the job. Once I got the hardware configured correctly the installation was a doddle except that I forgot to install the sources to rebuild the kernel and so had to redo part of it. It even runs X11 although it doesn't drive the 1024x768 resolution cleanly. Questions: 1. On the 200MB disk I used to have all my home directory stuff when I had 1.1.5.1 working. I appear to have remade the disklabel on this slice (stupid I know) during the installation. Is there any way I can recover the information from this disk? Currently it is mounted as two partitions /olddisk1 and /olddisk2 but both of these show as empty. Yet the disk used to have data on it and probably still does as I haven't written anything new to it (disklabel excepted). And Yes I know I should have backed up the things I wanted to keep but I didn't and I didn't intend to make a new filesystem on that slice but accidents will happen - especially if you are impatient. 2. My /etc/services file is very small having only 5 entries. Is this correct? The machine I'm writing this from - a DEC alpha 3000 has a much larger services file. I assume that once I get my FreeBSD box connected to the net I'm going to have to add the services as needed - n'est pas? 3. To get Sendmail, DNS, TCP/IP, PPP etc working do I just install the appropriate package? 4. How do I make use of the live filesystem disk? Does this mean that I don't need to install all packages that I want if I only want some occasionally? 5. Any hints about clearing up the flutter on X11 at high resolution appreciated. All help much appreciated especially to question 1. Bye John (Play Violin & Ride Bike - but not at the same time) ******************************************************************************** John Richards * email : john@zyqad.co.uk Zyqad Ltd, * Suite 25, GPT Business Park, * Technology Drive, Beeston * tel : +44 115 922 0820 NOTTINGHAM. NG9 2ND. * fax : +44 115 967 8374 ******************************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 04:03:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA04636 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA04155 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 03:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01723; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:56:20 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id NAA12010; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:56:07 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199606201056.NAA12010@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: My Cyrix microprocessor/motherboard problems To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:56:06 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606190445.VAA18326@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jun 18, 96 09:44:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk # >1) Replace the Cyrix 486DX4 with a genuine Intel DX4. # # One more suggestion, while we're on a roll... ;-) # # Get an AMD 5x86 133MHz. It's basically a 133MHz 486DX4. And, AMD # works just as well as Intel, and costs less. AMD has never had these # Cyrix DLC problems, either. I'm typing this on an AMD 5x86/133 right # now, so I know it works. :-) Seconded. # Still, you're right -- you may have to go to step two and three, and # try a different motherboard. If one doesn't want Pentium for now, I can state that recent SiS 496/7 -based PCI boards are fairly stable. Not as fast as Saturn II -based ones, but with 15ns L2 cache theyr'e not slow either. # If you get a new motherboard (like an ASUS, where it's a known working # board), Are SP3G (SaturnII) still in the market? (And their SP3 (SiS) aren't damn nice -- only 2 SIMM slots, for example). # make sure you get at least 256K level-2 cache (I have 512K). Just every 486 board today comes with 256k L2 cache, I should note, so it's difficult to get less :) -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 04:37:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA07057 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA06869 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02641; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:35:46 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id OAA13309; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:35:45 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199606201135.OAA13309@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: AMD 586 in P24T slot? -- No, P24"D" one To: dutchman@spase.nl (Kees Jan Koster) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:35:45 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606190743.JAA00492@phobos.spase.nl> from "Kees Jan Koster" at Jun 19, 96 09:43:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello Kees Jan, # > Try another CPU -- Intel or AMD (AMD 5x86 strongly recommended, # > in case your motherboard supports it. If it doesn't, you # > may try jumper settings for Intel P24D -- theyr'e Ok # > for AMD 133 too) # > # Ummmm. Now this sounds interesting. I lived under the assumption that I # needed a special mainboard to sport an AMD 133. You wasn't 100% correct. As about recent 486 boards, they usually have AMD 133 explicitly listed in jumper setting sheets. As about older ones, the things aren't so simple -- you might be lucky with a guessed probability of above 80%. # I have a SOYO any-486 mainboard. We have some this SOYO boards, too. But didn't tried AMD 133 in them, for a pity (going to do this), 'cause we are getting AMD 133 already installed in newer boards, Taiwanese ATC-1425B ones. # I can jumper it to accept those cute # pentium overdrive processors. I don't have the booklet here, but I seem # to recall they call the overdrive processor P24T. Could I use its jumper # settings for an AMD 133? There are two P24x beasts, they ARE different. One is P24D, another is P24T. I don't know the exact difference between them. (AFAIK P24D is Intel DX4/100 with 16k WB L1 cache). From the expirience of my friends (AMD 133 is very popular here) and from the Usenet discussions _AND_ looking at ATC-1425B board's manual, I can tell you, that on the board which doesn't support AMD 133 out-of-the-box you should try jumper settings for Intel P24"D", not "T"; _OR_ the settings for Enhanced AMD (they are very similar; special setting for AMD 133 includes a single extra jumper to be "closed" compared to either P24D or Enh. AMD; my guess is that this jumper controls WB internal cache behaviour). You may also ask FreeBSD gurus, some of them are happily running AMD 133 in ASUS SP3G (SaturnII) boards; ask them what settings do they use. I think that a bit of experimentation and (or? ;) support from your vendor will solve the problem. If you can get a 133 chip for a day or two of testing before buying it -- that will suffice, too. For a pity, attempts to use 5x133 in older boards might cause the nessesity of motherboard's BIOS firmware upgrade :( # Groetjes, # Kees Jan # # ======================================================================v== # Kees Jan Koster e-mail: dutchman@spase.nl # Van Somerenstraat 50 tel: NL-24-3234708 # 6521 BS Nijmegen # the Netherlands # ========================================================================= # Who is this general Failure and why is he reading my disk? (anonymous) # ========================================================================= # -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 04:55:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA08007 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07922 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 04:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03035; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:55:17 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id OAA13637; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:55:16 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199606201155.OAA13637@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:55:16 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606191216.IAA24229@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Jun 19, 96 08:16:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk # OK -- sounds great to me... I've got two 486/33's on older ISA Micronics # motherboards that need a shot in the arm (or a kick in the butt) # speedwise. These are 5 volt motherboards designed around the 486/33 # clock speed. AMD 133 is 3.4 V :( # Is there any guarantee that any of these chips will work # correctly. I've been told that the only thing that should work for sure # is the Intel 486DX2/66. That's right -- Intel 2/66 is 5V. # I'd love to go to the AMD 586 -- anyone have any experience with these # in older motherboards with the Voltage Regulator sockets? I don't. # Bill # -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 07:41:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16611 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA16605 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id AAA06622; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:34:35 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199606201504.AAA06622@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: My Cyrix microprocessor/motherboard problems To: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua (Andrew V. Stesin) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:34:34 +0930 (CST) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, Eloy.Paris@ven.ra.rockwell.com, hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606201056.NAA12010@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> from "Andrew V. Stesin" at Jun 20, 96 01:56:06 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew V. Stesin stands accused of saying: > > # Still, you're right -- you may have to go to step two and three, and > # try a different motherboard. > > If one doesn't want Pentium for now, I can state that > recent SiS 496/7 -based PCI boards are fairly stable. > Not as fast as Saturn II -based ones, but with 15ns L2 > cache theyr'e not slow either. > > # If you get a new motherboard (like an ASUS, where it's a known working > # board), > > Are SP3G (SaturnII) still in the market? (And their SP3 (SiS) > aren't damn nice -- only 2 SIMM slots, for example). Soyo (who are very nearly as nice as ASUS in many regards) have a 496/497 board with 4 SIMM sockets. This board has just about every possible CPU type covered too, and is a pretty serious contended in the budget market. > With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 09:10:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21833 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA21827 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA00314; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:10:13 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA28073; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606201610.JAA28073@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Andrew V. Stesin" cc: dutchman@spase.nl (Kees Jan Koster), hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AMD 586 in P24T slot? -- No, P24"D" one In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 20 Jun 96 14:35:45 +0300. <199606201135.OAA13309@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 09:10:04 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ># > Try another CPU -- Intel or AMD (AMD 5x86 strongly recommended, ># > in case your motherboard supports it. If it doesn't, you ># > may try jumper settings for Intel P24D -- theyr'e Ok ># > for AMD 133 too) ># Ummmm. Now this sounds interesting. I lived under the assumption that I ># needed a special mainboard to sport an AMD 133. > You wasn't 100% correct. As about recent 486 boards, > they usually have AMD 133 explicitly listed in jumper > setting sheets. As about older ones, the things aren't > so simple -- you might be lucky with a guessed probability > of above 80%. To be more precise, the 5x86 is just a marketing name. It's really a 486DX4. The two things that make it different from "traditional" 486s are that it has 16K write-back cache (most 486s have 8K write-through cache; but even Intel makes their 486DX4s with 16K write-back cache these days), and it runs at a faster clock than any other "486" (AMD stops their 486DX4 line at 120MHz, and calls the chips above that 5x86, even though they're identical except for the clock speed [486DX4/100 is 3x33.3MHz, 486DX4/120 is 3x40MHz, and 5x86/133 is 4x33.3MHz]). > For a pity, attempts to use 5x133 in older boards might > cause the nessesity of motherboard's BIOS firmware upgrade :( My BIOS doesn't even know what a DX4 is, but my 5x86 is still working OK. The only thing is that it runs in write-through mode instead of write-back. But my L2 cache is write-back, so it's not a huge penalty. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 10:02:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24587 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24480 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA17322; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:10:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id UAA16809; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:10:20 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199606201710.UAA16809@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: AMD 586 in P24T slot? -- No, P24"D" one To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:10:20 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, dutchman@spase.nl, hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606201610.JAA28073@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jun 20, 96 09:10:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello Michael, # > For a pity, attempts to use 5x133 in older boards might # > cause the nessesity of motherboard's BIOS firmware upgrade :( # # My BIOS doesn't even know what a DX4 is, but my 5x86 is still working # OK. The only thing is that it runs in write-through mode instead of # write-back. But my L2 cache is write-back, so it's not a huge # penalty. By the way, are you using the jumper settings for "plain" DX2/66, or those for P24D (if your mainboard knows about it :) ? -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 10:42:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27179 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA27174 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA00413; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:42:53 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA28316; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606201742.KAA28316@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Andrew V. Stesin" cc: dutchman@spase.nl, hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AMD 586 in P24T slot? -- No, P24"D" one In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 20 Jun 96 20:10:20 +0300. <199606201710.UAA16809@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:42:39 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ># My BIOS doesn't even know what a DX4 is, but my 5x86 is still working ># OK. The only thing is that it runs in write-through mode instead of ># write-back. But my L2 cache is write-back, so it's not a huge ># penalty. > By the way, are you using the jumper settings for "plain" DX2/66, > or those for P24D (if your mainboard knows about it :) ? My motherboard is jumpered for a standard 486DX or DX2. I don't think that makes any difference (the DX2 didn't have a clock multiplier pin; it always doubled the clock no matter what). My motherboard is 5-volt only. The 3-volt regulator module that I bought with the CPU has jumpers for both AMD and Intel chips on it. The AMD jumper is for 2x and 3x. The Intel jumper is for 2x, 2.5x and 3x. Oddly enough, I get the best performance when I use the jumper for Intel at 2x (I believe the 4x chips use the 2x pin to do 4x, since there is no 4x pin -- you get 3x with the 3x setting, and 4x with the 2x setting). So, I leave the AMD jumper open and jump the Intel jumper to 2x (4x). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 13:33:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA06143 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aeffle.Stanford.EDU (sequence.Stanford.EDU [171.65.76.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06136; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by aeffle.Stanford.EDU; id AA10979; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:33:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 13:33:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Howard Lew To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Cc: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" , freebsd-hardware@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips In-Reply-To: <199606191216.IAA24229@shell.monmouth.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > > > > >Can anyone comment on the stability of these chips? > > >It will be running FreeBSD-stable 2.1.0 > > > > AMD chips are awesome. They will work correctly with every > > motherboard that runs correctly with Intel chips. > > > > The new Cyrix 6x86 (Pentium replacement) is supposed to be a great > > chip from all I've read. It's definitely faster than a Pentium at the > > same clock speed (don't be fooled by the P-rating, though). I'm > > pretty temted to get one since it's a good alternative to Intel. > > > > AMD's K5 (their "6x86-ish" chip) is behind and is just coming out in > > 100MHz versions. I'm sure it'll be a great chip too when they can > > finally produce fast versions of them in large quantities. > > > > The Cyrix 5x86 sounds nice too. It actually has some design > > enhancements beyond a normal 486. (The "5x86" chips are designed for > > a 486 socket and motherboard.) The AMD 5x86 is just a 486DX4 with a > > 16K write-back cache and quad-clock instead of tripled clock. Still, > > it's a hellishly fast 486. The AMD 5x86 133MHz is supposed to be > > ~75MHz Pentium in performance. > > OK -- sounds great to me... I've got two 486/33's on older ISA Micronics > motherboards that need a shot in the arm (or a kick in the butt) > speedwise. These are 5 volt motherboards designed around the 486/33 > clock speed. Is there any guarantee that any of these chips will work > correctly. I've been told that the only thing that should work for sure > is the Intel 486DX2/66. > > I'd love to go to the AMD 586 -- anyone have any experience with these > in older motherboards with the Voltage Regulator sockets? > > Bill > I believe the 486DX2/66 is a 5V CPU. I believe the 5x86s are all 3 volt, so there's a potential problem. Need an adapter for that. Might also need to flash the bios. ---- || Shoppers Network BEST PRICES, FULLY x86 COMPATIBLE & FAST!!! || PO BOX 16627 Cyrix 686s now available! || San Francisco, CA 94116 Email - info@shoppersnet.com | ------------------------------> WWW - http://www2.shoppersnet.com -------------------------------> WWW - http://www.shoppersnet.com/shopping From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 14:41:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11828 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-134.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11695; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 14:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA04017; Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:15:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606192015.WAA04017@vector.jhs.no_domain> X-Authentication-Warning: vector.jhs.no_domain: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com), freebsd-hardware@freefall.FreeBSD.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:16:15 EDT." <199606191216.IAA24229@shell.monmouth.com> Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:15:42 +0200 Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter > Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips > > > [Maybe] michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) > > > > AMD chips are awesome. They will work correctly with every > > motherboard that runs correctly with Intel chips. Categorically Wrong ! 2 Gigabyte GA-486US came with Intel 486 33MHz, ran error free for years, on multiple OSs, but did not work with 2 pre-tested AMD 486-66 (npx probe failed on the Gigabyte boards), then systems did (& still do) work again with Intel 486-66. ( gj@freebsd.org was owner of other board at the time of test. Rod knew AMD part numbers. ) > I've been told that the only thing that should work for sure > is the Intel 486DX2/66. Probably a fairly good chance :-) I guessed our observed phenomena might have been something to do with the AMD having thinner power bus lines, & relying on a motherboard which was also thinner than ideal, & that could deliver enough power for a 33, but not for a 66, but I have nothing to prove that, Only certainty is: AMD chips are Not always plug compatible. Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 23:31:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA25923 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA25914; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA01051; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:31:20 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA01022; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606210631.XAA01022@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Howard Lew cc: Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-hardware@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 20 Jun 96 13:33:32 -0700. Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:31:17 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I believe the 486DX2/66 is a 5V CPU. I believe the 5x86s are all 3 volt, >so there's a potential problem. Need an adapter for that. Might also >need to flash the bios. I believe we've already covered that ground. At least implicitely. Just in case it was lost on anyone: all the current 486s (that I know of), including 5x86s, that are faster than 66MHz, are 3-volt CPUs. AMD made some 5-volt 486DX2 80MHz chips (including mine) for a short while, but switched those to 3-volts also. If you have an older motherboard, you need a 5-volt to 3-volt regulator module that sits between your CPU and the CPU socket. These generally cost $40-$50 from what I've seen. If you stick with a 66MHz or slower part, you probably won't run into this problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jun 20 23:57:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA27443 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA27438; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA01077; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:57:26 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA01085; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606210657.XAA01085@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-hardware@freefall.freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 19 Jun 96 22:15:42 +0200. <199606192015.WAA04017@vector.jhs.no_domain> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:57:24 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) >> > AMD chips are awesome. They will work correctly with every >> > motherboard that runs correctly with Intel chips. >Categorically Wrong ! >2 Gigabyte GA-486US came with Intel 486 33MHz, ran error free for years, >on multiple OSs, but did not work with 2 pre-tested AMD 486-66 >(npx probe failed on the Gigabyte boards), >then systems did (& still do) work again with Intel 486-66. How long ago was this? I know there were some very early chips that had some sort of FPU bug, or something similar, that would show up under demanding situations. But those should have been flushed out of the channel *long* ago. Otherwise, this is the first case I've heard of this. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jun 21 00:15:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28407 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA28402; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA03032 (5.65c/IDA-1.5); Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:14:40 -0700 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09480; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:23:40 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id KAA26369; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:23:38 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199606210723.KAA26369@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips To: jhs@FreeBSD.org Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:23:35 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606192015.WAA04017@vector.jhs.no_domain> from "Julian H. Stacey" at Jun 19, 96 10:15:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Julian, # Only certainty is: AMD chips are Not always plug compatible. I 100% agree -- not always compatible; not to mention the fact that early Enhanced Am486 chips were ummm... say, crap, and non-enhanced ones generally sucked, too -- compared to Intel. But just now wer'e speaking about (comparatively new) AMD 5x133 chip. That's plain different story. _This_ particular chip is really nice, do you agree? -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jun 21 00:17:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28478 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x1.boston.juno.com (x1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28473; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fadorno@juno.com) by x1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DAA25164; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:17:11 EDT To: lithium@cia-g.com Cc: questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:17:26 PST Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Adaptec 2920 pci card and NEC SCSI 4x CD-Rom Message-ID: <19960621.001727.3150.0.fadorno@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-23,32 From: fadorno@juno.com (Fred Adorno) Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:01:21 -0600 (MDT) Stephen Fisher writes: > >One of my machines runs off of an Adaptec 2940 great. That same >machine >also has a SONY CDU-76S 4x SCSI drive that works great. I'm not sure >about the NEC being supported - try asking >freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org >mailing list. > >On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Fred Adorno wrote: > >> Any support for these hardwares? I'm not about to lower my >standards to >> work with the devices that are currently being offered. > > > - Steve > - Systems Manager > - Community Internet Access > - http://www.cia-g.com > > Steve, it doesn't surprise me that your box is running fine with the Adaptec card, but it so happens that we do have a SCSI Device Support for that card that you have. The drivers on our box does not have a device driver for my particular type of card. However, I did notice that the last line in my kernel stated "pci0....driver not loaded" which tells me it knows that I have a card sitting on my pci bus, but it doesn't know what to do with it. This card came with device drivers for win 95, os2, netware, unix. I'm not sure, but I'm going to try installing the drivers for unix environment and see what happens. From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jun 21 00:47:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA29956 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA29951; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA01144; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:47:13 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA01382; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606210747.AAA01382@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Andrew V. Stesin" cc: jhs@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 21 Jun 96 10:23:35 +0300. <199606210723.KAA26369@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:47:11 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ># Only certainty is: AMD chips are Not always plug compatible. > I 100% agree -- not always compatible; not to mention the fact > that early Enhanced Am486 chips were ummm... say, crap, > and non-enhanced ones generally sucked, too -- compared to Intel. I *strongly* disagree. What vintage chips are you speaking of? Yes, there were some bad chips at the beginning, but that has been remedied *long* ago. I'll even let you have the early Enhanced ones (which I just don't know about, because I didn't pay any attention to them when they were first released). How much better did Intel's early Enhanced (by this you're referring to write-back cache, correct?) chips work? When you say "non-enhanced" ones generally sucked, do you mean all the chips before the DX4s? If so, you're just plain in outer space. I have had a 5-volt 486DX2 80MHz (one of the first ones made -- bought it right when they were released). It is a very solidly made chip. It has been pushed very hard at times, and has never flinched. It's as reliable as any computer I have used. I have experience with *many* other people running similar AMD CPUs. To say they "generally suck" is to be totally misinformed. To say they aren't always plug compatible, though there is a massive weight of evidence against it, I could be convinced to believe in certain odd situations. > But just now wer'e speaking about (comparatively new) > AMD 5x133 chip. That's plain different story. _This_ > particular chip is really nice, do you agree? Yes. Really nice. Just like my AMD 486DX2/80 when I first bought it. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jun 21 00:49:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA00131 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29949 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA10396; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:55:46 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id KAA27015; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:55:45 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199606210755.KAA27015@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:55:44 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606210631.XAA01022@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jun 20, 96 11:31:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi once again, # I believe we've already covered that ground. At least implicitely. # # Just in case it was lost on anyone: all the current 486s (that I know # of), including 5x86s, that are faster than 66MHz, are 3-volt CPUs. # AMD made some 5-volt 486DX2 80MHz chips (including mine) for a short # while, but switched those to 3-volts also. If you have an older # motherboard, you need a 5-volt to 3-volt regulator module that sits # between your CPU and the CPU socket. These generally cost $40-$50 # from what I've seen. Just a minor addition for interested people: a brand new Taiwanese SiS 496/7 PCI 486 mainboard with full AMD 5x133 support costs (street) around $80 even here. So it might be better to dump an old MB and simply get a new one, instead of looking for VR device. -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jun 21 01:04:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA00792 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA00786 for ; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA01161; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:04:08 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA01537; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606210804.BAA01537@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Andrew V. Stesin" cc: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cyrix and AMD chips In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 21 Jun 96 10:55:44 +0300. <199606210755.KAA27015@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:04:06 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just a minor addition for interested people: > a brand new Taiwanese SiS 496/7 > PCI 486 mainboard with full AMD 5x133 support costs (street) > around $80 even here. So it might be better to dump > an old MB and simply get a new one, instead of looking > for VR device. Unless you have a 486 EISA motherboard, that you payed $300 for two years ago, with three EISA cards, and sixteen 30-pin SIMM sockets, almost all full. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jun 21 10:46:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA00704 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x1.boston.juno.com (x1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00675; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fadorno@juno.com) by x1.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NAA23440; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:46:22 EDT To: gibbs@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:46:05 PST Subject: Adaptec 2920 and NEC CDR-222 (4x SCSI) Message-ID: <19960621.104606.3150.0.fadorno@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-5,7-8,10 From: fadorno@juno.com (Fred Adorno) Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I read in the book that you are in charge of the SCSI subsystem. I like to know if you are working on a device drivers that will work with the Adaptec 2920. I get this message at the end of the kernel: "pci0:19:vendor=0x1036, device=0x0000, class=storage (scsi) [no driver assigned]" Any suggestions or quick fixes? I am a newbie, so I wouldn't know how to write a device driver. From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jun 21 15:48:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09757 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09750; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606212248.PAA09750@freefall.freebsd.org> To: fadorno@juno.com (Fred Adorno) cc: gibbs@freebsd.org, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Adaptec 2920 and NEC CDR-222 (4x SCSI) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:46:05 PST." <19960621.104606.3150.0.fadorno@juno.com> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:48:13 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I read in the book that you are in charge of the SCSI subsystem. I like >to know if you are working on a device drivers that will work with the >Adaptec 2920. I work on the SCSI system, but I'm not "in-charge" of it. I am not working on a device driver for the 2920 and don't have any plans to work on one personally. >I get this message at the end of the kernel: > >"pci0:19:vendor=0x1036, device=0x0000, class=storage (scsi) [no driver >assigned]" Yup. Its not a supported adapter. >Any suggestions or quick fixes? Buy a supported adapter? >I am a newbie, so I wouldn't know how to >write a device driver. The way I transformed from a newbie into a developer was by buying a piece of unsupported hardware and writing a device driver for it(2742T). There is a large learning curve, but I think its a very gratifying endevor. -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 13:42:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07874 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zen.nash.org (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07846 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by zen.nash.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id PAA13207; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:41:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:41:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606222041.PAA13207@zen.nash.org> From: Alex Nash To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds Reply-to: nash@mcs.com Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm wondering if I can mix 60 and 70ns SIMMs. Everyone says don't, but they don't say why. I can understand not mixing SIMMs that will be accessed simultaneously (like banks 1 and 2), but why shouldn't it work when they are separated? My motherboard's manual indicates 70ns or faster will work, so why wouldn't a mixture? So I add 2 70ns SIMMs to the motherboard that had 60s in banks 1 and 2, and (not too surprisingly) strange things happened. I removed the 60s and ran with just the 70s, it seems to be working great. Now I'm starting to think, what if I ran with 70s in banks 1 & 2 and 60s in banks 3 & 4? Since the motherboard runs with 70s ok, but the 60/70 mixture didn't work the first time, it must be able to determine the access speed. Is the motherboard using bank 1 to determine what speed it should access memory with? (This is a Tyan S1462 MB.) Alex From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 14:09:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09108 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09097 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA03488; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:09:13 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA11215; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606222109.OAA11215@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: nash@mcs.com cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 22 Jun 96 15:41:26 -0500. <199606222041.PAA13207@zen.nash.org> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:09:11 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm wondering if I can mix 60 and 70ns SIMMs. Everyone says don't, >but they don't say why. I can understand not mixing SIMMs that will >be accessed simultaneously (like banks 1 and 2), but why shouldn't it >work when they are separated? My motherboard's manual indicates 70ns >or faster will work, so why wouldn't a mixture? Probably because the people who designed your motherboard designed its timing parameters with the assumption that all your memory would display consistent behavior. Another thing is that some motherboards will do interleaved access if you have matching size SIMMs in all the slots. This is where it alternates between accessing bank 1 and bank 2 on even/odd memory accesses. This speeds things up because it only has to initialize the address on the first access of a burst, and can then burst in consecutive blocks of memory with little setup time. If your SIMMs have different timing characteristics, you will definitely have to find a way to let your motherboard know to use only the slowest access speed, or don't try it at all. FWIW, my (ASUS Pentium) motherboard manual says to use only 60ns or faster if you run the memory bus at ~66MHz. >So I add 2 70ns SIMMs to the motherboard that had 60s in banks 1 and >2, and (not too surprisingly) strange things happened. >I removed the 60s and ran with just the 70s, it seems to be working >great. >Now I'm starting to think, what if I ran with 70s in banks 1 & 2 and >60s in banks 3 & 4? Since the motherboard runs with 70s ok, but the >60/70 mixture didn't work the first time, it must be able to determine >the access speed. Is the motherboard using bank 1 to determine what >speed it should access memory with? (This is a Tyan S1462 MB.) If it were going to work at all, that would be my suggestion: put the slower memory first, so if it does some sort of test to see how fast your memory is, it might use the slower memory for the timings. Note that this is highly speculative and implementation specific. Only the people who designed your motherboard can tell you for sure. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 14:18:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09776 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (root@ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09771 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swoosh.dunn.org (swoosh.dunn.org [206.158.7.243]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA17013; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606222118.RAA17013@ns2.harborcom.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bradley Dunn" Organization: Harbor Communications To: nash@mcs.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:13:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds Reply-to: dunn@harborcom.net CC: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What I have always been told is that put the slowest chips first. Most motherboards set the speed at which they access memory by the speed of the first chip. Therefore if you put the 70 after the 60, it will try to access the 70 at 60, which is no good. But the other way around, it will access the 60 at 70, which works fine. On 22 Jun 96 at 15:41, Alex Nash wrote: > I'm wondering if I can mix 60 and 70ns SIMMs. Everyone says don't, [...] > Now I'm starting to think, what if I ran with 70s in banks 1 & 2 and > 60s in banks 3 & 4? Since the motherboard runs with 70s ok, but the > 60/70 mixture didn't work the first time, it must be able to > determine the access speed. Is the motherboard using bank 1 to > determine what speed it should access memory with? (This is a Tyan > S1462 MB.) Bradley Dunn From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 14:55:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12215 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA12210 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 14:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA08475; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:54:16 -0400 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:54:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Bradley Dunn cc: nash@mcs.com, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds In-Reply-To: <199606222118.RAA17013@ns2.harborcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk simm speeds are determined by the speed grade jumpers soldered onto the simm module. RAM controllers use these jumpers to drive timing. If the hardware only uses one simm slot to determine timing for the system, AND you mix simm speeds, then obviously strange things are going to happen if the system drives 70 ns simms with 60 ns timing. ron Ron Minnich |"Inferno runs on MIPS ..., Intel ..., and AMD's rminnich@sarnoff.com |29-kilobit-per-second chip-based architectures ..." (609)-734-3120 | Comm. week, may 13, pg. 4. ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 15:22:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13402 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zen.nash.org (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13397 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by zen.nash.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id RAA06668; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:21:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:21:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606222221.RAA06668@zen.nash.org> From: Alex Nash To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds Reply-to: nash@mcs.com Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I'm wondering if I can mix 60 and 70ns SIMMs. Everyone says don't, > >but they don't say why. I can understand not mixing SIMMs that will > >be accessed simultaneously (like banks 1 and 2), but why shouldn't it > >work when they are separated? My motherboard's manual indicates 70ns > >or faster will work, so why wouldn't a mixture? > > Probably because the people who designed your motherboard designed its > timing parameters with the assumption that all your memory would > display consistent behavior. The question is what behavior is it expecting? If it expects the data to be valid within 70ns, it is consistent. > Another thing is that some motherboards will do interleaved access if > you have matching size SIMMs in all the slots. This is where it > alternates between accessing bank 1 and bank 2 on even/odd memory > accesses. Aren't both banks (1&2) accessed simultaneously for any 32-bit access? When you said all slots, you mean groups of two, right? > This speeds things up because it only has to initialize the > address on the first access of a burst, and can then burst in > consecutive blocks of memory with little setup time. If your SIMMs > have different timing characteristics, you will definitely have to > find a way to let your motherboard know to use only the slowest access > speed, or don't try it at all. As I wrote in the first message, I wouldn't expect a mixture of 60ns in bank 1 and 70ns in bank 2 (and _probably_ vice versa, depending on how the speed is determined) to work. > If it were going to work at all, that would be my suggestion: put the > slower memory first, so if it does some sort of test to see how fast > your memory is, it might use the slower memory for the timings. Note > that this is highly speculative and implementation specific. Only the > people who designed your motherboard can tell you for sure. Good, so I'm not crazy for thinking this might work :) Alex From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 15:26:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13544 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.spi.net ([199.238.225.153]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA13539 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@MindBender.HeadCandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by portal.spi.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA03558; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:26:28 -0700 Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA11560; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606222226.PAA11560@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: nash@mcs.com cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 22 Jun 96 17:21:04 -0500. <199606222221.RAA06668@zen.nash.org> Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:26:26 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >I'm wondering if I can mix 60 and 70ns SIMMs. Everyone says don't, >> >but they don't say why. I can understand not mixing SIMMs that will >> >be accessed simultaneously (like banks 1 and 2), but why shouldn't it >> >work when they are separated? My motherboard's manual indicates 70ns >> >or faster will work, so why wouldn't a mixture? >> Probably because the people who designed your motherboard designed its >> timing parameters with the assumption that all your memory would >> display consistent behavior. >The question is what behavior is it expecting? If it expects the data >to be valid within 70ns, it is consistent. Exactly. >> Another thing is that some motherboards will do interleaved access if >> you have matching size SIMMs in all the slots. This is where it >> alternates between accessing bank 1 and bank 2 on even/odd memory >> accesses. >Aren't both banks (1&2) accessed simultaneously for any 32-bit access? >When you said all slots, you mean groups of two, right? I was going under the assumption that one "bank" consists of the smallest usable memory size, i. e. two 72-pin SIMMs. So, bank 1 is the first pair of SIMMs, bank 2 the second.... >> If it were going to work at all, that would be my suggestion: put the >> slower memory first, so if it does some sort of test to see how fast >> your memory is, it might use the slower memory for the timings. Note >> that this is highly speculative and implementation specific. Only the >> people who designed your motherboard can tell you for sure. >Good, so I'm not crazy for thinking this might work :) Right -- this is what I would expect. But there's still no guarantee. Some engineer may have found it more useful to test, say, the last SIMM installed. How can we know without asking him? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 15:26:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13569 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zen.nash.org (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13517 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by zen.nash.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id RAA07389; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:24:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:24:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606222224.RAA07389@zen.nash.org> From: Alex Nash To: dunn@harborcom.net Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, hal@wwa.com Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds Reply-to: nash@mcs.com Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What I have always been told is that put the slowest chips first. > Most motherboards set the speed at which they access memory by the > speed of the first chip. Therefore if you put the 70 after the 60, it > will try to access the 70 at 60, which is no good. But the other way > around, it will access the 60 at 70, which works fine. Just as I suspected, thanks for verifying this. I'll give this a try just as soon as my verify-the-70ns-work-ok-standalone-by- running-make-world finishes (which should be any minute now as it just entered the install phase). Alex From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 15:39:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13982 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zen.nash.org (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13963 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 15:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by zen.nash.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id RAA22378; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:38:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 17:38:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606222238.RAA22378@zen.nash.org> From: Alex Nash To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds Reply-to: nash@mcs.com Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Aren't both banks (1&2) accessed simultaneously for any 32-bit access? > >When you said all slots, you mean groups of two, right? > > I was going under the assumption that one "bank" consists of the > smallest usable memory size, i. e. two 72-pin SIMMs. So, bank 1 is > the first pair of SIMMs, bank 2 the second.... Sorry, I got my terminology backwards :) > >> If it were going to work at all, that would be my suggestion: put the > >> slower memory first, so if it does some sort of test to see how fast > >> your memory is, it might use the slower memory for the timings. Note > >> that this is highly speculative and implementation specific. Only the > >> people who designed your motherboard can tell you for sure. > > >Good, so I'm not crazy for thinking this might work :) > Right -- this is what I would expect. But there's still no guarantee. > Some engineer may have found it more useful to test, say, the last > SIMM installed. How can we know without asking him? I accept that there's no guarantee, but knowing programmers, the extra effort required to figure out which is the last bank would probably be passed up in favor of a hard coded get_ram_speed(0) :) Alex From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 16:20:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA15444 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zen.nash.org (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA15436 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 16:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by zen.nash.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id SAA02437; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:17:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:17:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606222317.SAA02437@zen.nash.org> From: Alex Nash To: dunn@harborcom.net, michaelv@HeadCandy.com, rminnich@sarnoff.com Cc: hal@wwa.com, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds Reply-to: nash@mcs.com Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wrote: > Just as I suspected, thanks for verifying this. I'll give this > a try just as soon as my verify-the-70ns-work-ok-standalone-by- > running-make-world finishes (which should be any minute now as > it just entered the install phase). Well, I installed the 70ns SIMMs in the first bank and 60ns SIMMs in the second (I'm using the term bank correctly this time :). Everything seemed to be running fine, X was up, I started top to monitor what was going on, and then fired 5 simultaneous compiles of SSH. Not long after the compiles were started the system choked, completely ignoring my pitiful attempts to resuscitate it by banging on the keyboard. Oh well, you learn something new every day :) Thanks for your help. Alex From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 18:30:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA21394 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns2.harborcom.net (root@ns2.harborcom.net [206.158.4.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21389 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 18:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swoosh.dunn.org (swoosh.dunn.org [206.158.7.243]) by ns2.harborcom.net (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA16888; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606230130.VAA16888@ns2.harborcom.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Bradley Dunn" Organization: Harbor Communications To: nash@mcs.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:26:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds Reply-to: dunn@harborcom.net CC: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Try putting a 70 first in each bank. On 22 Jun 96 at 18:17, Alex Nash wrote: > Well, I installed the 70ns SIMMs in the first bank and 60ns SIMMs in > the second (I'm using the term bank correctly this time :). > Everything seemed to be running fine, X was up, I started top to > monitor what was going on, and then fired 5 simultaneous compiles of > SSH. Not long after the compiles were started the system choked, Bradley Dunn From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jun 22 19:14:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA23247 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solar.os.com (craigs@solar.os.com [199.232.136.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23242 for ; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from craigs@localhost) by solar.os.com (8.7/8.7.0) id WAA08913; Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:24:34 -0400 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 22:24:33 -0400 From: Craig Shrimpton Subject: Re: Mixing SIMMs of different speeds To: Bradley Dunn cc: nash@mcs.com, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606230130.VAA16888@ns2.harborcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 22 Jun 1996, Bradley Dunn wrote: > Try putting a 70 first in each bank. > I believe that some versions of AMI bios have the ability to set the SIMM refresh rate in the bios setup. If you have mixed 70 and 60 NS chips, set the SIMM speed parameter to 70 in the bios. Assuming you have the correct AMI bios version. -Craig +------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ | Craig Shrimpton | e-mail: craigs@os.com | | Orbit Systems | information: info@os.com | | Worcester, MA 508.753.8776 | http://www.os.com/ | +------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ Strategic Systems