From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 03:23:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA00475 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 03:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.com (pegasus.com [140.174.243.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA00452 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 03:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pegasus.com (8.6.8/PEGASUS-2.2) id AAA13860; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:22:40 -1000 Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 00:22:40 -1000 From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) Message-Id: <199606301022.AAA13860@pegasus.com> In-Reply-To: Henry Spencer "Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server" (Jun 29, 2:38pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk } } Why *not* add an Ethernet to the home system? It's a cheap and simple way } to get an efficient high-speed connection into your machine. The key is } to stop thinking of Ethernet as an expensive LAN, and start thinking of it } as a fast alternative to RS232. A 10BaseT Ethernet card and a crossover } cable is a cheap and easy way to connect *even* *just* *one* high-speed } device to your PC. Would you add a serial port for such a purpose? If } not, then why not add an Ethernet port instead? It's a lot better and not } much more expensive. } Or use coax and you can hook many boxes together without the added cost of a hub. `Combo' ethernet cards are the way to go for small networks, they accept twisted-pair or coax. Richard From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 08:14:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19299 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zoo.toronto.edu (zoo.toronto.edu [128.100.72.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA19294 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 11:13:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: Richard Foulk cc: hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com In-Reply-To: <199606301022.AAA13860@pegasus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wrote: > ...stop thinking of Ethernet as an expensive LAN, and start thinking of it > as a fast alternative to RS232. ...It's a lot better and not > much more expensive. I should mention that, at one point, the original inventors of Ethernet seem to have had just this sort of role in mind. They hoped to make Ethernet the new RS232, a cheap and universal fast way of interconnecting computer equipment. Arguably it was a terrible mistake to raise the speed from 3Mb/s (the original experimental design) to 10Mb/s (the DIX standard), because it put Ethernet beyond easy reach of then-current chip technologies, and delayed the advent of really cheap Ethernet hardware by perhaps a decade. Henry Spencer henry@zoo.toronto.edu From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 08:32:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20971 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lserver.infoworld.com (lserver.infoworld.com [192.216.48.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20964 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccgate.infoworld.com by lserver.infoworld.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #12) id m0uaPxC-000wufC; Sun, 30 Jun 96 10:06 PDT Received: from cc:Mail by ccgate.infoworld.com id AA836148602; p 29 Jun 96 21:54:17 PST Date: p 29 Jun 96 21:54:17 PST From: "Brett Glass" Message-Id: <9605308361.AA836148602@ccgate.infoworld.com> To: "Jacob M. Parnas" , henry@zoo.toronto.edu Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The TI 17550 can go up to 900kbaud/second, which is a new UART. That's the TI 15570, I believe. It has a 64-byte buffer, as does one of the new Exar/Startech parts. Some of the other solutions use "intelligent" UARTs from Cirrus Logic. The big flaw in the Cirrus Logic parts, however, is that the firmware that runs the chips' internal processors can not be programmed or expanded upon, so your CPU must perform all functions that aren't already built in. And that's a shame. I'd love to see a microcode expansion port (possibly as a bond-out option) on these. --Brett From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 08:35:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21155 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lserver.infoworld.com (lserver.infoworld.com [192.216.48.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA21149 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccgate.infoworld.com by lserver.infoworld.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #12) id m0uaQ0J-000wxWC; Sun, 30 Jun 96 10:09 PDT Received: from cc:Mail by ccgate.infoworld.com id AA836148784; p 29 Jun 96 22:02:04 PST Date: p 29 Jun 96 22:02:04 PST From: "Brett Glass" Message-Id: <9605308361.AA836148784@ccgate.infoworld.com> To: Bernard Klatt- Admin , hardware@FreeBSD.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Hi-speed serial input for Pagesat HS-2000? Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm having trouble with receive overruns with the 115.2 Kb/s news > feed from the new Pagesat HS-2000. [...] > I think what I need is a hi-speed buffered input serial > card that's compatible with the Pagesat psfrx program. I think what you might need is the ultrafast news server I whipped up on top of a real time kernel. Trouble is, I need to write a real time kernel that doesn't have runtime royalties before I can distribute it. --Brett From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 08:35:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21170 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lserver.infoworld.com (lserver.infoworld.com [192.216.48.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA21165 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccgate.infoworld.com by lserver.infoworld.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #12) id m0uaQ0N-000wxzC; Sun, 30 Jun 96 10:09 PDT Received: from cc:Mail by ccgate.infoworld.com id AA836148791; p 29 Jun 96 22:10:46 PST Date: p 29 Jun 96 22:10:46 PST From: "Brett Glass" Message-Id: <9605308361.AA836148791@ccgate.infoworld.com> To: Bruce Evans , hdalog@zipnet.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Cc: Kevin_Swanson@BLaCKSMITH.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is actually the weakest point in the sio driver. Polling 16 > ports wastes a lot of time when only a few of them are active, and I > think processing multiple ports per interrupt is relatively rare even > when many of them are active. It's not rare when it MATTERS -- that is, when the FIFOs are filling up. The rest of the time, it merely overcomes a severe deficiency of the PC architecture: the interrupts are edge-triggered, which means that you can't tell whether multiple devices need service unless every one has its own interrupt. --Brett From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 08:59:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23157 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from charlotte.spiders.com (charlotte.spiders.com [199.224.7.188]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA23150; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gwh@localhost) by charlotte.spiders.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA03596; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:02:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199606301602.MAA03596@charlotte.spiders.com> From: gwh@spiders.com (Gene W Homicki) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:02:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: bbecker@flubber.futurecomm.com's message as of Jun 30, 2:53 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: bbecker@flubber.futurecomm.com, Gary Palmer Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Cc: "Jacob M. Parnas" , Henry Spencer , hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk +--- | On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: | | Figuring the price of cheap ethernet cards to be under $40US, you should | be able (today) to connect 3 machines for something like $200US including | the cost of wire and rj-45 connecters. For a network that small, you can | get away with not having a hub. +--- I just got a "PalmHub" 8 port UTP + 1 BNC for < $100. Combione that with a few "Addtron" NE2000 clones from someplace like DatacommWarehouse for $19/each and you can have a small network for under $200. With FreeBSD I have gotten ~1MBps with the $20 cards, which is close to the max you can get on 10Mb (note B vs b) ethernet. And there are not serial line protocl problems. --Gene -- Gene W. Homicki gwh@spiders.com Objective Consulting, Inc. http://www.spiders.com/ Internet Presence Design voice: +1 914.353.3511 From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 10:09:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA28601 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA28596 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA11248; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:08:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199606301708.NAA11248@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: henry@zoo.toronto.edu, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 17:12:46 +0930. <199606290742.RAA20768@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:08:30 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606290742.RAA20768@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>you write: >Jacob M. Parnas stands accused of saying: >> >> The TI 17550 can go up to 900kbaud/second, which is a new UART. > >Compatible with the 16550? Appropriately clocked, the 16550 will run at >1.5Mbps. > >> Why connect at high speeds with a UART: money. Most ethernet solutions >> cost well over $1000 not counting the ethernet hardware which may not be at >> home. (card, tranceiver or hub, cables, etc). I've seen a PC Card that > >This is total bollocks. An NE2000 clone ethernet card and cables will cost >you about $30 all up. As I said other places, I never said it would cost $1000 for the etherneting. Just the card costs at least $50. >> costs $199-$319 depending on who you are, and it does everything >> with a UART on top (the software driver for BSDI will be $95. So, >> how does $400 sound to you compared to the ethernet solution, >> considering that the $400 non-ethernet solution compare to an >> ethernet one. > >But it doesn't. You have zero flexibility, a driver with no source, and >from what you're saying, a UART-style interface with the associated high >interrupt and CPU overheads. I'm not sure about the status of the source. Hopefully BSDI will have them include the source. I wouldn't be surprised, but I have no information on that. >> You can get up to 512 Kbaud/second with it, it has 3 >> types of compression and header compression (Stac, Ascend and >> Microsoft) and can change from two BRI channels down to one and vice >> versa as the other channel is used for voice fax, analog modem, >> phone, etc. Pretty good in my opinion. > >Thanks, but I'd go for an Ascend P50 or something similar any day. >Particularly since this card is unlikely to pass the Austel tests >anytime soon. If you have unlimited funds, and don't mind wasting money for equal performance and features, go for it. I'd personally like to save $700+. Jacob >-- >]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ >]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ >]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 10:18:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA28891 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA28886 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA11281; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:17:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199606301717.NAA11281@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: henry@zoo.toronto.edu, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 17:14:29 +0930. <199606290744.RAA20801@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:17:09 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606290744.RAA20801@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>you write: >Jacob M. Parnas stands accused of saying: > >> Also, why add an ethernet to the home system, when really you >> usually just want a point to point connection from your house to the >> ISP, a route from your home computer to the ISP and a route from the >> ISP to any default request, and don't have any need for a local LAN? > >What's the difference between an ethernet card and a high-speed serial >card other than the name and the shape of the connectors? >(Aside from performance, of course) the cost, I haven't seen a solution based on ethernet for under $1000. The card costs $300-$400 or so. Comparable performance and features. Maybe a missed a $400 complete ethernet solution. If so, please let me know. I'll have an ethernet too, so forget those costs (so I can NFS and backup over the ethernet, and use some Sun software like Centerline C) over X, Jacob > >-- >]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ >]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ >]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Jacob M. Parnas | | IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Ctr. | | Internet: jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 10:24:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA29189 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA29183 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA11303; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:23:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199606301723.NAA11303@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Thomas J Balfe cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: Micropolis In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:35:21 -0000. Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 13:23:38 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you write: >I just lost a second Micropolis 4.3 GIG SCSI drive. The model number is >3243. Stay away from these drives at all costs, unless losing business >and restore is something you like to do. This is the second one of the >same model to go within the past 4 months. > > >======================================================================== >Thomas J Balfe tbalfe@tioga.com >President http://www.tioga.com/ >Tioga Communications, Inc 814-867-4770 >======================================================================== > > "It is well established that the loss of First Amendment freedoms, > for even minimal periods of time, unquestionably constitutes > irreparable injury." > Hohe v. Casey, 868 F. 2d 69, at p. 72, 73 (3d Cir. 1989) > > I wouldn't base disk buying by a couple examples. Also, I'd make sure you don't have a heat/power problem. Sorry, I know its frustrating. Once I had a Fujitsu Supereagle which took 3 replacements to find one that wasn't DOA. And this was after the bug was fixed in the assembly line of supereagles. My condolances and hope for better luck. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 10:32:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA29552 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA29546 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id DAA21416; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:31:11 +1000 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:31:11 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606301731.DAA21416@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: Brett_Glass@ccgate.infoworld.com, bde@zeta.org.au, hdalog@zipnet.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Cc: Kevin_Swanson@BLaCKSMITH.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> This is actually the weakest point in the sio driver. Polling 16 >> ports wastes a lot of time when only a few of them are active, and I >> think processing multiple ports per interrupt is relatively rare even >> when many of them are active. >It's not rare when it MATTERS -- that is, when the FIFOs are filling up. Even this (extremely rare) case is close to the breakeven point. Assume that input is continually arriving on 16 ports at once and that the fifo full events are independently randomly distributed (a fairly good assumption and the worst case). Assume that output is continually going out on 16 ports at once and the output completion events are independently randomly distribution (a fairly bad assumption). Assume no modem status change events (a fairly good assumption). Assume that the system is a 486 or better on a slow ISA bus (worst case for the bus). Then handling a fifo full event (for 14 chars of input) takes about 45us and handling an output completion event (for 16 chars of new output) takes about 30us. At 115200 bps, 14 characters take about 1215us to arrive,and 16 characters take about 1389us to output, so the combined chance of a fifo full or output completion event occurring while a previous fifo full event was being handled is: 1 - ((1215 - 45) / 1215)^16 * ((1389 - 45) / 1389)^16 = 0.68 Polling for this has an average cost of about 10 us. Returning from the interrupt handler and taking another interrupt immediately (if the edge trigger braindamaged didn't prevent it :-() costs 5-10us. The average busy case probably has considerably fewer than 16 fully active ports at 115200 bps. (It must have fewer than 16 fully active ports - handling fifo full events alone for 16 ports takes 16 * 45 = 720us = more than half the CPU. Handling output completion events would take the other half of the CPU.) If only input is occurring on only 8 ports then the combined chance is: 1 - ((1215 - 45) / 1215)^8 = 0.27 This is below the breakeven point. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 11:11:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA03196 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 11:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lserver.infoworld.com (lserver.infoworld.com [192.216.48.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA03183 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 11:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccgate.infoworld.com by lserver.infoworld.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #12) id m0uaSRC-000wxWC; Sun, 30 Jun 96 12:45 PDT Received: from cc:Mail by ccgate.infoworld.com id AA836158143; Sun, 30 Jun 96 12:03:36 PST Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 12:03:36 PST From: "Brett Glass" Message-Id: <9605308361.AA836158143@ccgate.infoworld.com> To: Bruce Evans , bde@zeta.org.au, hdalog@zipnet.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Cc: Kevin_Swanson@BLaCKSMITH.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is below the breakeven point. Only if you assume no other interrupt-driven I/O is going on, and that no other code has critical sections where interrupts are masked (or where task switches don't happen, so that the TTY driver's buffers in RAM can't be emptied). Add moderate to heavy disk I/O and things can REALLY break down. You may recall that, a few months ago, I had to rewrite parts of the wd drivers to disable a hard disk's "sleep" feature, and discovered that they busy wait -- the maximum wait is several seconds, in fact -- in the kernel. This can cause FIFO overruns in the TTY drivers if not in the UARTs. The worst case is probably a news server with a high-speed feed from PageSat, since serial and disk activity are linked and are likely to peak at the same time. CPU utilization also peaks -- due to the use of GZIP compression for the feed. To make matters worse, the news software uses lots of memory -- which may trigger swapping and thrashing. So resource usage of all kinds goes right off the charts! Problems are also VERY common on machines running X servers (which is why I never run X on a machine with significant serial traffic). Thus, when in doubt, I always go for extra buffering. I have been using a Hayes ESP (the old one, whose 1K receive buffers are hidden) on the busiest ports to provide an extra margin of safety. With the MTU set to about 500 characters, two whole PPP packets can fit in time of need. --Brett From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 12:17:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA07801 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07794 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id FAA24422; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 05:13:18 +1000 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 05:13:18 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199606301913.FAA24422@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: Brett_Glass@ccgate.infoworld.com, bde@zeta.org.au, hdalog@zipnet.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Cc: Kevin_Swanson@BLaCKSMITH.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> This is below the breakeven point. >Only if you assume no other interrupt-driven I/O is going on, and that >no other code has critical sections where interrupts are masked (or where >task switches don't happen, so that the TTY driver's buffers in RAM can't >be emptied). This is a good assumption. In FreeBSD, sio and cy interrupts have priority over all other interrupts. There is a problem if there are multiple serial boards of different capabilities on separate interrupts or under separate drivers (e.g., a 16-port 16550 board would starve a 1-port 8250 board). There would be problems if other drivers had high priority interrupt handlers. Then it might be necessary to prioritize or fairly schedule the interrupt handlers. This would normally involve returning from each interrupt handler after doing as little as possible to give the scheduler a chance to pick the highest priority interrupt. >Add moderate to heavy disk I/O and things can REALLY break down. You may Nope. In FreeBSD, disk i/o has no effect on serial interrupt handling in FreeBSD (except DMA may steal cycles). >recall that, a few months ago, I had to rewrite parts of the wd drivers >to disable a hard disk's "sleep" feature, and discovered that they busy >wait -- the maximum wait is several seconds, in fact -- in the kernel. >This can cause FIFO overruns in the TTY drivers if not in the UARTs. Certainly not in the UARTs. There's nothing special about the serial drivers here (except that their lowest level will keep working). The wd driver may interrupt any interrupt handler except the clock interrupt handler. It increases the interrupt mask to the union of bio_imask and the previous mask. If it then busy-waits, it blocks disk interrupts and everything that is already masked. Lossage is most likely for network input at 100 Mb/s. Tty input will most likely be lost due to applications not being able to run to read the tty buffers. >Thus, when in doubt, I always go for extra buffering. I have been using a >Hayes ESP (the old one, whose 1K receive buffers are hidden) on the busiest >ports to provide an extra margin of safety. With the MTU set to about 500 >characters, two whole PPP packets can fit in time of need. This won't make much difference under FreeBSD. It may even be harmful. The pseudo-dma buffers are sized suitably for 16550s. If the UART's fifo is larger than about 128, then the pseudo-dma buffers won't be able to take all the input. Flow control may fix the problem in practice (just like it does for a modem with a bug buffer connected to a UART with a small fifo). OTOH, hugh tty buffers are necessary if the system is swapping heavily or is running many hog processes. E.g., with 100 hog processes running for 1/10 second each, you need 10 seconds worth of buffering - 115 KB tty buffers! The default tty buffer size of 1KB isn't even enough for one hog process. Flow control may fix this problem in practice. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 12:32:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09090 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceres.brunel.ac.uk (pp@ceres.brunel.ac.uk [134.83.176.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA09068 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk by ceres.brunel.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:31:52 +0100 Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-2) with ESMTP id TAA08110; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 19:57:46 +0100 (BST) To: gwh@spiders.com (Gene W Homicki) cc: bbecker@flubber.futurecomm.com, "Jacob M. Parnas" , Henry Spencer , hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, bsdi-users@bsdi.com From: Gary Palmer Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 30 Jun 1996 12:02:00 EDT." <199606301602.MAA03596@charlotte.spiders.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 19:57:45 +0100 Message-ID: <8107.836161065@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gene W Homicki wrote in message ID <199606301602.MAA03596@charlotte.spiders.com>: > +--- > | On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > | > | Figuring the price of cheap ethernet cards to be under $40US, you should > | be able (today) to connect 3 machines for something like $200US including > | the cost of wire and rj-45 connecters. For a network that small, you can > | get away with not having a hub. > +--- Please get you're attributation right ... I said nothing of the sort! Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 14:42:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA19368 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA19361 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04910; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606302140.OAA04910@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Brett Glass" cc: "Jacob M. Parnas" , henry@zoo.toronto.edu, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of p 29 Jun 96 21:54:17 PST . <9605308361.AA836148602@ccgate.infoworld.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:40:49 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> The TI 17550 can go up to 900kbaud/second, which is a new UART. >That's the TI 15570, I believe. It has a 64-byte buffer, as does one of the >new Exar/Startech parts. > >Some of the other solutions use "intelligent" UARTs from Cirrus Logic. The Don't forget the Hayes ESP cards, which can go up to ~900Kbps. They emulate a 16550 and have a 1024-byte FIFO. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 17:14:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA29740 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 17:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.tioga.com (root@falcon.tioga.com [205.146.65.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29729 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 17:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tbalfe@localhost) by falcon.tioga.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA05191; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:14:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas J Balfe To: "Jacob M. Parnas" cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Micropolis In-Reply-To: <199606301723.NAA11303@jparnas.cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't think it was a heat problem, I think it's a quality control problem on the part of Micropolis. (read: junk). I have a Quantum in there right now, and I've had it for the better part of a year in another machine, and it works fine in the new machine as well. ======================================================================== Thomas J Balfe tbalfe@tioga.com President http://www.tioga.com/ Tioga Communications, Inc 814-867-4770 ======================================================================== "It is well established that the loss of First Amendment freedoms, for even minimal periods of time, unquestionably constitutes irreparable injury." Hohe v. Casey, 868 F. 2d 69, at p. 72, 73 (3d Cir. 1989) From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 20:44:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA20652 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA20641 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA15914; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:42:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199607010342.XAA15914@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: chuckr@glue.umd.edu, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:49:40 +0930. <199606290719.QAA20648@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:42:33 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606290719.QAA20648@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>you write: >Jacob M. Parnas stands accused of saying: >> >> These days, a multiboard should at least do 115200baud in my opinion. At >> least it can be competitive with modems. 8x115200baud is still only 1/8 >> MB/sec and 16x115200 is only 1/4 MByte/sec. Not exactly fast. > >Fast has nothing to do with it. Interrupt rates do. What's important to most people is to maximize performance at a minimum price. Handling interrupts quickly is one way to keep a fifo empty. People would never no the difference if the fifo was emptied every 1/5000 of a second or every 1/100 of a second. As long as the latency time wasn't too long and throughput wasn't comprimised and the CPU wasn't overloaded. >You should sit down and read some of the stuff that Bruce Evans has posted >on the subject over the years; most particularly his analysis of where the >actual load in handling serial ports comes from. Some key points : > > - A 486 can service around 40,000 ISA interrupts per second, assuming > minimal interrupt processing time. > - Most of the CPU overheard in handling serial in/output is in the tty > layer. > >> Jacob Its true that there's a lot of wasteage. If while I was in school early on and sharing a class computer with 4MB RAM on a VAX 11/780 that I would feel I needed to upgrade a 64 MB 20 MIPS sparc 2 that I had to myself, I'd say you were crazy. But that's what I'm doing. But while the trivia may be interesting, what I'm interested in is the bottom line, like most people. If I were designing IO cards things would be very different. But if you read everything about things that aren't important to what you do, you'll not be that good at what you do. Its OK to have hobbies, but choose them carefully. Its like if my car breaks. I don't know how to fix it for anything major. So I call an expert (mechanic). If I were to spend time learning to all type of car problems, Refrigerator problems, sink problems, I'd lose precious time and the cost of learning it would be > than working on computers and paying to have those other things fixed. Jacob >-- >]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ >]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ >]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Sun Jun 30 20:49:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA20925 for hardware-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA20915 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 20:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA15937; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:48:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199607010348.XAA15937@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Bernard Klatt- Admin cc: hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: Hi-speed serial input for Pagesat HS-2000? In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 03:11:21 PDT. Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:48:45 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you write: >was Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server >On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Jacob M. Parnas wrote: > >> >> I'm confused. I thought the 16550 was good up to 115,200 baud, but when >> >> ISDN eventually takes over with compression, ~512kbaud will be the norm. >> >> I don't know if they can handle that... >> > >> The TI 17550 can go up to 900kbaud/second, which is a new UART. >> >> I've seen a PC Card that costs $199-$319 depending on who you are, >> and it does everything with a UART on top (the software driver for >> BSDI will be $95. > >I'm having trouble with receive overruns with the 115.2 Kb/s news >feed from the new Pagesat HS-2000. I'm using a Lava ISA 16C550- >based com port on a 486DX4-100, 64 MB RAM, BSDI V2.1 news server. >I talked to 'Mike' at Pagesat who recommended a DOS-based PC as >a dedicated input spooler which would then feed the BSDI news >server. > This seems like an extravagant 'kludge'. I checked >around a found a couple of external serial buffer boxes, but >they wouldn't work faster than 38.4 Kb/s. CyberResearch has >a hi-speed buffered serial card, but it's designed for output >spooling. > I think what I need is a hi-speed buffered input serial >card that's compatible with the Pagesat psfrx program. I think >16 or 32 bytes of FIFO is not nearly enough since the Pagesat >data receiver does no flow control. Ideas, suggestions or product >source would be welcome. > >Bernard Klatt Owner Fairview Tech Ctr Ltd. www.ftcnet.com > My advice would be to look at www.bsdi.com and see which high speed multiport cards they have and buy them on a net-30 basis from a cheap supplier. Again, make sure that BSDI supports it. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 03:12:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA15326 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.aristar.com (slip125.winc.com [204.178.182.125]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA15306 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mgessner@localhost) by phoenix.aristar.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id GAA08032 for freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 06:11:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199607011011.GAA08032@phoenix.aristar.com> Subject: UPS To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hardware) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 06:11:49 -0400 (EDT) From: mgessner@aristar.com Organization: Aristar Software Development, Inc. Reply-To: mgessner@winc.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, all, I'm looking at buying a UPS for my FreeBSD 2.1.0 system. I'd like to get one with an interface card so that the system can shut itself down in the event of a power failure (summertime brings lots of thunderstorms here in NE Ohio!) Does anyone know of any compatible UPS's with interface cards that will work with FreeBSD and (this may be too much to hope for) the driver/kernel mod to make it work? I did find one that was supposed to be compatible with SCO. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks! Matt From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 03:29:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA17218 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Relay1.Austria.EU.net (relay1.Austria.EU.net [192.92.138.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA17203 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shraero.UUCP by Relay1.Austria.EU.net with UUCP id AA12955 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for hardware@FreeBSD.org); Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:29:13 +0200 Received: by shraero.co.at (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA14021; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:22:27 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:22:27 +0200 From: kaufmann@shraero.shraero.co.at (Roland Kaufmann) Message-Id: <9607011022.AA14021@shraero.co.at> To: hardware@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: >The 16650 is a 16550 with a 32-bye FIFO. Neither are suitable for >512KBps; at this speed you have a new byte arriving every 16us, or a >full FIFO after only 512usec. This is too fast for anything other >than a dedicated system. > > > - A 486 can service around 40,000 ISA interrupts per second, assuming > minimal interrupt processing time. Now 40000 interrupts/s gives 25us between interrupts, so it should be possible to handle several UARTS. -- best regards Roland Kaufmann Roland Kaufmann roland.kaufmann@shraero.co.at Senior Systems Engineer/Systems Design Phone: +43 1 80199 5563 SCHRACK Aerospace Fax: +43 1 80199 5577 Breitenfurterstr. 106-108 A-1120 Vienna, AUSTRIA From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 03:48:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18400 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lassie.eunet.fi (lassie.eunet.fi [192.26.119.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA18393 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 03:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from key.hole.fi by lassie.eunet.fi with SMTP id AA17753 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:48:01 +0300 Received: (from count@localhost) by key.hole.fi (8.7.5/8.6.12) id NAA05413 for freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:48:00 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Bror 'Count' Heinola" Message-Id: <199607011048.NAA05413@key.hole.fi> Subject: Pentium Pro question To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:48:00 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Would someone care to enlighten me about the pros and cons of the Pentium Pro chipsets currently available? For example, ASUS offers two boards, P6NP5 with 440FX chipset and P6RP4 with 450KX chipset. What are the differences and do they _matter_ in real-life use? The system would be a nfs/sm server with Adaptec 3940 and (at least) four SCSI disks and 100M ethernet. Every clue is appreciated! -- Bror 'Count' Heinola % count@key.hole.fi % http://pobox.com/~count/ Pengerkatu 13b A5 % IRC: Count NIC: BH271 % FI-00530 HELSINKI % Work: bror@sms.fi % Roads? Where we're going, Cell: +358-40-5533-554 % Santa Monica Software % we don't need roads. From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 07:24:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA29952 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 07:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beta.internetional.com.br (beta.internetional.com.br [200.241.232.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA29926; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 07:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wagner@localhost) by beta.internetional.com.br (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA10531; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 11:24:08 -0300 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 11:24:08 -0300 From: Wagner Ikeda Message-Id: <199607011424.LAA10531@beta.internetional.com.br> To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: 3c590 - Defective early revision adapter! Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, Does anyone came up to a way to fix up this message issued at boot time? I am using FreeBSD 2.2 SNAP 960501. Any help will be much appreciated. Please answer direct to my personal address, since I do not subscribe to these mailling lists. TIA. Regards, Wagnewr From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 07:29:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA00271 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 07:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.cas.unt.edu (www.cas.unt.edu [129.120.3.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA00249; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 07:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cofer@localhost) by www.cas.unt.edu (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA12421; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 09:29:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 09:29:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Christopher D. Cofer" To: freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Installing Stable on 386/33 No Boot Prompt. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am trying to install stable on a 386/33 with 20 Meg. I have correctly downloaded and checked on another machine the boot.flp. After the machine goes through POST it hangs. The floppy is operational with other OS boot disks. Has anyone seen this before? : The MB has CHIPS chipset : EIDE bios controller by SIIG : Trident ISA VGA : DigiBoard PC/16e : 3com Etherlink III 3c509 The only thing that I was not able to find in the FAQ and posts is the controller. Is it supported? Would it cause my machine to hang? I wanted to use this machine to do routing between pppd and the network. I only need to route one ppp connection, so I am not worried about speed. The digiboard is important for other serial devices. The machine is currently running linux slakware 3.0 with kernel 2.0. This is not working very well because of the driver for the digiboard. I understand that the driver FreeBSD is better, therefore I am trying to install it. If the setup performs well, then I will upgrade the system to a faster machine. Any comments or suggestions would be helpful. Thanks in advance... ********************************************************** * Christopher Don Cofer College of Arts * * cofer@unt.edu and Science * * Computer Support Services * ********************************************************** From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 08:26:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA04126 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04119 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA19697; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:24:16 -0700 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199607011524.IAA19697@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Pentium Pro question To: count@key.hole.fi (Bror 'Count' Heinola) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607011048.NAA05413@key.hole.fi> from Bror 'Count' Heinola at "Jul 1, 96 01:48:00 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Would someone care to enlighten me about the pros and cons > of the Pentium Pro chipsets currently available? I'll try, given the limited data on the 440FX chipset that I have at this time. > For example, ASUS offers two boards, P6NP5 with 440FX chipset and > P6RP4 with 450KX chipset. What are the differences and do they > _matter_ in real-life use? The 450KX is known as the ``Orion'' chipset, until stipping B0 it has some rather serious bugs, the worst one is with respect to PCI bus master devices, namely they can't bus master at >4.4MB/sec. The pro to this chipset is that it can do 2 and 4 way memory interleaving which _should_ give it a really fast memory bandwidth, but I have yet to see anyone produce great results here, this may be that I haven't seen any test results for B0 chipsets. The 440FX is known as the ``Natoma'' chipset, it is very new so there is not much data on it. One known missing feature is memory interleaving was left out of this chip set. You can buy a P6RP4 today, the P6NP5 will not be shipping in volume until ``some time in July''. The XP6NP5 is shipping in limit volume now (this is an ATX form factor board and requires ATX power supply and an ATX case to put it in. > The system would be a nfs/sm server with > Adaptec 3940 and (at least) four SCSI disks and 100M ethernet. If you go P6RP4 make darn sure that you have the B0 or later chipset, anything before that will fail misserably with the 100Mbs ethernet card. I wish I had more data on the Natoma chipset, but that only comes with time. > Every clue is appreciated! > > -- > Bror 'Count' Heinola % count@key.hole.fi % http://pobox.com/~count/ > Pengerkatu 13b A5 % IRC: Count NIC: BH271 % > FI-00530 HELSINKI % Work: bror@sms.fi % Roads? Where we're going, > Cell: +358-40-5533-554 % Santa Monica Software % we don't need roads. > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 10:55:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA16540 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 10:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA16532; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA02834; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:54:48 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id TAA24381; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:54:06 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.Alpha.5/keltia-uucp-2.8) id TAA03772; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:41:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199607011741.TAA03772@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: SCSI adapter & Success/horror stories with HP pentium XU series To: hardware@freebsd.org (Hardware Mailing list) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:41:07 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org (FreeBSD SCSI Users' list) X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2178 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [note: cross posted because one of my questions is about HP computers in general] Hi, I'll be given an HP computer at my new job. The series I'll probably get is the XU, with a P5-133. It uses an internal IDE (blech) controller and an Ultra SCSI2 controller, also on the motherboard. I suspect (and hope!) it is an Adaptec similar to the 2940U (at least using the same chipset) but I'd like a confirmation before taking the XU series. Does anyone know if this SCSI adapter is supported by FreeBSD (I'll probably install a 2.2-SNAP on it) ? Last (and why it is also on hardware) has anyone success/horror stories with the latest HP series (VL4 with IDE and XU with both) ? The configuration I'm looking for is P5-133, 32 or 48 MB, 2x 1 Go SCSI2, SCSI CDROM 4x and Cirrus Logic video adapter (they offer Matroxes as well but even if they're good, I don't like their policy...) Thanks, -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #12: Sun Jun 30 14:10:07 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 11:27:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21387 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 11:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seine.cs.UMD.EDU (seine.cs.umd.edu [128.8.128.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21358 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 11:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by seine.cs.UMD.EDU (8.7.5/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id OAA15395; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199607011827.OAA15395@seine.cs.UMD.EDU> To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Laser Printer Hardware Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 14:27:07 -0400 From: Rohit Dube Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, For lack of a better place (and since I use FreeBSD) I am posting this here : Is there a good pointer to how Postscript Laser Printers work? I plan to buy one of these soon (possibly a HP Laserjet 4MV or a LEXMARK Optra R+) and need to figure out a) Are the memory simms on the laser printers any different from usual memory. b) Cost / pain involved in adding a postscript card to a non-postscript printer (eg the HP LaserJet 4V). c) Speedup obtained on going from 2MB memory to 4MB, 8MB. d) Peoples experience with the 4MV, 4V or the OPTRA. Out of curiosity : if fonts are stored on the ROM, for small / medium documents shouldn't 2MB perform as well as say 4MB or higher? Thanks in advance. --rohit. From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 12:41:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29013 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.hp.com (relay.hp.com [15.255.152.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28939; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from srmail.sr.hp.com by relay.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA244710063; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:41:03 -0700 Received: from hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com by srmail.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA090540062; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:41:02 -0700 Received: from mina.sr.hp.com by hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA280680061; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:41:01 -0700 Message-Id: <199607011941.AA280680061@hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com> To: Ollivier Robert Cc: hardware@freebsd.org (Hardware Mailing list), freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org (FreeBSD SCSI Users' list) Subject: Re: SCSI adapter & Success/horror stories with HP pentium XU series In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Jul 1996 19:41:07 +0200." <199607011741.TAA03772@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 12:41:01 -0700 From: Darryl Okahata Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'll be given an HP computer at my new job. The series I'll probably get is > the XU, with a P5-133. It uses an internal IDE (blech) controller and an > Ultra SCSI2 controller, also on the motherboard. > > I suspect (and hope!) it is an Adaptec similar to the 2940U (at least using > the same chipset) but I'd like a confirmation before taking the XU series. If it's anything like the XU 5/90C that's next to my workstation, it does *NOT* use an adaptec controller. My XU 5/90C uses some AMD SCSI chip, which I believe is not supported by any FreeBSD version (at least, it's not mentioned in either the FAQ or handbook, and there doesn't appear to be any driver filenames in the 6/12 -snap that contain "amd"). Under Windows 95, the built-in SCSI is reported as an "AMD PCI SCSI Controller" (darn, I was hoping for some chip numbers). Sorry. -- Darryl Okahata Internet: darrylo@sr.hp.com DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Hewlett-Packard, or of the little green men that have been following him all day. From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 12:45:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29764 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29757 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 12:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emu.fsl.noaa.gov (kelly@emu.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.32]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA13222; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:45:09 GMT Message-Id: <199607011945.TAA13222@gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov> Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.40.112.4/16.2) id AA062750356; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:45:56 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:45:56 -0600 From: Sean Kelly To: gwh@spiders.com Cc: brantk@gatekeeper.atlas.com, hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606282257.SAA05541@charlotte.spiders.com> (gwh@spiders.com) Subject: Re: Devices compatible with tw(4) (X-10) Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Gene" == Gene W Homicki writes: Gene> I was just looking for remote power cycling devices Gene> (via phone, or whatever else) to manage a machine room while Gene> there are no staff around....and this message popped up. Gene> Has anyone used the X-10 stuff for this type of application? I don't know of anyone personally, but it's certainly possible with X10. In fact, there are telephone controllers for X10. You call up, enter a passcode, and then enter the X10 commands you want. It transmits them. I think JDS's Time Commander includes a phone-control option for X10, and there have got to be other solutions out there. I'd check Home Automation Systems' catalog ... not necessarily to buy from them (some prices good, yes, some prices ... not so good), but to get an idea of what's out there: http://www.techmall.com/smarthome/index.html If you want to involve FreeBSD with it, then one of the voicemail modems could work too. Get the kind that can echo back what touch-tones are pressed. When you get the correct code, have your FreeBSD system send X10 commands. If you're into recognizing touch-tones by hand, you can get a device called the VM100 from Reveal for about $49.95 (Internet Shopping Network carries 'em: http://www.isn.com). It's a device that plugs into your phone, into a serial port, and into the line in/line out jacks of your soundcard. When it indicates a ring, go off hook, and have the soundcard listen ... when you recognize the right DTMF tones, do whatever you want! -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory kelly@fsl.noaa.gov Boulder Colorado USA http://www-sdd.fsl.noaa.gov/~kelly/ From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 13:22:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05219 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-42-157.ut.nl.ibm.net [139.92.42.157]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA05201; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA17712; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:41:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199607011241.OAA17712@vector.jhs.no_domain> To: Chuck Robey cc: Kevin Swanson , freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: +49.89.2608126 (later) Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 Jun 1996 14:38:23 EDT." Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 14:41:53 +0200 Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Reference: > From: Chuck Robey > Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server > I use my modem at 57600 via a PC ISA "Eight-Serial" Card, Manufacturer: Decision-Computer International. Co., Ltd, 4F, No 31-3, Alley 4, Lane 906 Min-Shen East Road, Taipei, Taiwan, 8 * 16450 ive not tried faster, Ive not tried flood testing all channels. More info via my: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/generic/sys/i386/isa/isa_8com.h.JHS Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 13:29:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05951 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from novell.com (prv-ums.Provo.Novell.COM [137.65.40.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA05877; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from INET-PRV-Message_Server by novell.com with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 01 Jul 1996 14:26:26 -0600 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 14:33:51 -0600 From: Darren Davis To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, darrylo@novell.com Cc: freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org, hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SCSI adapter & Success/horror stories with HP pentium XU series - Reply Encoding: 13 Text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If it is anything like the new Pentium Pro based HP Vectra XUs, it has and Adaptec 2940 style adapter. I have several vintages of HP Vectra XUs (I love these machines). I even have some of the older ones with the AMD chipset running UnixWare. I was successful in getting FreeBSD 2.2 snap to work on this Pentium Pro box. The only driver problems I had is for the HP based network board (We stuck in an NE2000 for FreeBSD), and the Matrox video board (We are going to get Xinside). BTW these HPs are DAMN fast! Darren R. Davis Senior Software Engineer Novell, Inc. From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 13:57:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09877 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lassie.eunet.fi (lassie.eunet.fi [192.26.119.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09807 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 13:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from key.hole.fi by lassie.eunet.fi with SMTP id AA22905 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:57:12 +0300 Received: (from count@localhost) by key.hole.fi (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA06284; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:57:12 +0300 (EET DST) From: "Bror 'Count' Heinola" Message-Id: <199607012057.XAA06284@key.hole.fi> Subject: Re: Pentium Pro question To: rgrimes@GndRsh.aac.dev.com (Rodney W. Grimes) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:57:11 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607011524.IAA19697@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at Jul 1, 96 08:24:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Rodney W. Grimes taisi sanoa: > > If you go P6RP4 make darn sure that you have the B0 or later chipset, > anything before that will fail misserably with the 100Mbs ethernet > card. Thank you, I'll call them tomorrow and ask some more about their boards. Would it be reasonable to go with a Pentium 166 and Triton-II board instead of an early Orion, given the tasks the computer is supposed to be doing? ie. heavy on I/O, not much CPU required. > I wish I had more data on the Natoma chipset, but that only comes with > time. Yeah, information usually becomes available after it's been obsolete for a while. -- Bror 'Count' Heinola % count@key.hole.fi % http://pobox.com/~count/ Pengerkatu 13b A5 % IRC: Count NIC: BH271 % FI-00530 HELSINKI % Work: bror@sms.fi % Roads? Where we're going, Cell: +358-40-5533-554 % Santa Monica Software % we don't need roads. From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 14:09:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12031 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11959; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA03018; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:08:47 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA26153; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:08:33 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.Alpha.5/keltia-uucp-2.8) id WAA04589; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:47:02 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199607012047.WAA04589@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: SCSI adapter & Success/horror stories with HP pentium XU series To: darrylo@hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com (Darryl Okahata) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:47:02 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hardware@freebsd.org, freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607011941.AA280680061@hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com> from Darryl Okahata at "Jul 1, 96 12:41:01 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2178 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Darryl Okahata said: > If it's anything like the XU 5/90C that's next to my workstation, > it does *NOT* use an adaptec controller. My XU 5/90C uses some AMD SCSI I know old versions use something we don't support but this is a very recent model I think and the term used "Ultra SCSI2" makes me think it is the same adapter as the new Pentium Pro as two other persons said. I'll fervently hope it is the same for the P133. I'll get the exact model number tomorrow. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #12: Sun Jun 30 14:10:07 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 14:38:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA16279 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16251 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA24714; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:36:18 -0700 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199607012136.OAA24714@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Pentium Pro question To: count@key.hole.fi (Bror 'Count' Heinola) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607012057.XAA06284@key.hole.fi> from Bror 'Count' Heinola at "Jul 1, 96 11:57:11 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Rodney W. Grimes taisi sanoa: > > > > If you go P6RP4 make darn sure that you have the B0 or later chipset, > > anything before that will fail misserably with the 100Mbs ethernet > > card. > > Thank you, I'll call them tomorrow and ask some more about > their boards. > > Would it be reasonable to go with a Pentium 166 and Triton-II > board instead of an early Orion, given the tasks the computer > is supposed to be doing? ie. heavy on I/O, not much CPU required. The ASUS PCI/I-P55T2P4 boards equiped with a 133 or 166 MHz CPU make outstanding NFS servers for 100Mbs networks, a Pentium PRO would be overkill, so yes, IMHO it would reasonable. > > I wish I had more data on the Natoma chipset, but that only comes with > > time. > > Yeah, information usually becomes available after it's been > obsolete for a while. Not obsolete, just in production for at least 90 days. Serious bugs usually show up right away (Orion based boards had only been shipping for a few weeks before the 4.4MB/s problem was found). Subtle bugs can take a long time to show up, and often only effect very specific applications (ASUS PCI/I-P55TP4N ignore the NMI signal on the ISA bus, I have only known 1 person to ever run into that bug, and that was after I had been shipping those boards for 4 months). -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 14:54:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18122 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA18052; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA03129; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:54:17 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA26622; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:53:42 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.Alpha.5/keltia-uucp-2.8) id XAA05029; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:53:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199607012153.XAA05029@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: SCSI adapter & Success/horror stories with HP pentium XU series - Reply To: DARREND@novell.com (Darren Davis) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:53:38 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD SCSI Users' list), hardware@FreeBSD.ORG (Hardware Mailing list) In-Reply-To: from Darren Davis at "Jul 1, 96 02:33:51 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2178 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Darren Davis said: > If it is anything like the new Pentium Pro based HP Vectra XUs, it has > and Adaptec 2940 style adapter. I have several vintages of HP Vectra XUs After digging thru HP's Web site, it seems that ONLY the P6 models use the Adaptec adapter so I'm stuck with either IDE or make them buy a 2940 or NCR. DAMN HP! -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #12: Sun Jun 30 14:10:07 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 14:55:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18232 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18204; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:55:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199607012155.OAA18204@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: new floppy tape program To: hackers Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hardware X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard Samuel has made available to us a new floppytape program. several people have used it and recommend it over our own ft. it is available on frefall in ~jmb/lft and in incoming/lft.tar.gz.uu if you have a floopy tape, please get this program and try it out. jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 18:03:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA06525 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA06519 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by misery.sdf.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA00236; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:11:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Samplonius To: "Christopher D. Cofer" cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing Stable on 386/33 No Boot Prompt. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Christopher D. Cofer wrote: > I am trying to install stable on a 386/33 with 20 Meg. I have correctly > downloaded and checked on another machine the boot.flp. After the > machine goes through POST it hangs. The floppy is operational with > other OS boot disks. Has anyone seen this before? Make sure the drive is configured as 1.44MB floppy in the CMOS setup. DOS doesn't care, and works no matter the CMOS says, but the loader on the boot disk needs to know. Tom From owner-freebsd-hardware Mon Jul 1 19:16:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11515 for hardware-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cbgw1.att.com (cbgw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA11473 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:16:05 -0700 (PDT) From: gtc@aloft.att.com Received: by cbig1.att.att.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.2 sol2) id WAA21752; Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:11:33 -0400 To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, mgessner@winc.com Received: from aloft (aloft.cnet.att.com) by aluxpo (4.1/DCS-aluxpo-M4.3) id AA24323; Mon, 1 Jul 96 22:15:54 EDT Received: from stargazer (stargazer.cnet.att.com) by aloft (4.1/DCS-aloft-M5.1) id AA24652; Mon, 1 Jul 96 22:15:58 EDT Received: by stargazer (4.1/DCS-aloft_client-S2.1) id AA25045; Mon, 1 Jul 96 22:15:56 EDT Date: Mon, 1 Jul 96 22:15:56 EDT Original-From: aluxpo!aloft!gtc (gary.corcoran) Message-Id: <9607020215.AA25045@stargazer> Original-To: freebsd.org!freebsd-hardware, winc.com!mgessner Subject: Re: UPS Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You may want to check out Best UPS's (http://www.bestpower.com). They're reliable, and now they come with a free CD-ROM with monitoring and shutdown software. They have versions for all the Win* versions, and for those without Win*, *source code* and instructions for compiling for your unix system. All you need is a free serial port to hook up the UPS to your computer. From the recent ads I've seen, it even comes with the special (non-standard) serial cable you need to hook up to your computer's standard serial port. I haven't had the time to try to install the software for FreeBSD, but it is supposed to allow you to do an orderly shutdown of your FreeBSD machine when the battery starts running low. Gary From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jul 2 06:13:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA06393 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 06:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.cas.unt.edu (www.cas.unt.edu [129.120.3.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA06388 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 06:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cofer@localhost) by www.cas.unt.edu (8.7.5/8.6.9) id IAA24875; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:13:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:13:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "Christopher D. Cofer" To: Tom Samplonius cc: freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing Stable on 386/33 No Boot Prompt. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I found the problem. I removed the SIIG controller and replaced it with a simple IDE controller. It worked fine. Is the on board BIOS on controllers not supported under FBSD? On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Tom Samplonius wrote: > > On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Christopher D. Cofer wrote: > > > I am trying to install stable on a 386/33 with 20 Meg. I have correctly > > downloaded and checked on another machine the boot.flp. After the > > machine goes through POST it hangs. The floppy is operational with > > other OS boot disks. Has anyone seen this before? > > Make sure the drive is configured as 1.44MB floppy in the CMOS setup. > DOS doesn't care, and works no matter the CMOS says, but the loader on the > boot disk needs to know. > > Tom ********************************************************** * Christopher Don Cofer College of Arts * * cofer@unt.edu and Science * * Computer Support Services * ********************************************************** From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jul 2 10:25:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA23934 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lserver.infoworld.com (lserver.infoworld.com [192.216.48.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA23921 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccgate.infoworld.com by lserver.infoworld.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #12) id m0ubAhe-000x08C; Tue, 2 Jul 96 12:01 PDT Received: from cc:Mail by ccgate.infoworld.com id AA836328145; Tue, 02 Jul 96 10:32:07 PST Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 10:32:07 PST From: "Brett Glass" Message-Id: <9606028363.AA836328145@ccgate.infoworld.com> To: Bruce Evans , bde@zeta.org.au, hdalog@zipnet.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Cc: Kevin_Swanson@BLaCKSMITH.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If the UART's fifo is larger than about 128, then the pseudo-dma buffers > won't be able to take all the input. Flow control may fix the problem in > practice (just like it does for a modem with a bug buffer connected to a > UART with a small fifo). This brings up a problem I'd forgotten about: slow modem response to flow control signals. Often, the modem's internal firmware gives flow control such a low priority that several hundred characters can escape before a dropped "Clear to Send" signal is recognized. A UART with a big FIFO can help, especially if the UART does not have automatic flow control. --Brett From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jul 2 10:25:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA23948 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lserver.infoworld.com (lserver.infoworld.com [192.216.48.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA23924 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccgate.infoworld.com by lserver.infoworld.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #12) id m0ubAhi-000wzkC; Tue, 2 Jul 96 12:01 PDT Received: from cc:Mail by ccgate.infoworld.com id AA836328152; Tue, 02 Jul 96 10:57:04 PST Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 10:57:04 PST From: "Brett Glass" Message-Id: <9606028363.AA836328152@ccgate.infoworld.com> To: Thomas J Balfe , jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net Cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Micropolis Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't think it was a heat problem, I think it's a quality control > problem on the part of Micropolis. (read: junk). These days, hard drive manufacturers are FORCED to produce junk, because unknowledgeable consumers don't understand what a hard drive is -- much less how to judge its quality. All they know is that they want a low price. Maxtor has suffered of late because it tried to produce high-quality drives. OEMs wouldn't buy them because they cost a tiny bit more. From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jul 2 10:56:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25842 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25833 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id DAA20842; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 03:54:03 +1000 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 03:54:03 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607021754.DAA20842@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: Brett_Glass@ccgate.infoworld.com, bde@zeta.org.au, hdalog@zipnet.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Cc: Kevin_Swanson@BLaCKSMITH.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >This brings up a problem I'd forgotten about: slow modem response to flow >control signals. Often, the modem's internal firmware gives flow control >such a low priority that several hundred characters can escape before a >dropped "Clear to Send" signal is recognized. A UART with a big FIFO can >help, especially if the UART does not have automatic flow control. The modem needs to recognize flow control within 100-200 characters for the default FreeBSD buffer sizes. Flow control can't be depended on to prevent fifo overflows in the UART because the sender can't be depended on to stop before sending more characters than fit in the fifo. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jul 2 15:26:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05415 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tombstone.sunrem.com (tombstone.sunrem.com [206.81.134.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05410 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brandon@localhost) by tombstone.sunrem.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00547; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:26:16 -0600 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:26:15 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Gillespie To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: pushing a motherboard to test errors? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a system with FreeBSD 2.1-R and Windows 95. I have had no end of troubles. The computer has been back to the shop with them returning 'no detectable problems' (however, their probing software was only used in Windows 95). I suspect the i/o on the motherboard is somehow bad, and I have finally convinced them to look at it again. What I need to know is, can I somehow push the i/o (doing x reads and x writes) and detect if and how many errors occurred? Unfortunately I've not been able to repeatably recreate any error, I feel more as if my computer is simply possessed ;) Some problems I _do_ know of is reading from the floppy disk is roulette, sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt (in both Win95 and FreeBSD, although Win95 seems to have less problems). I was completely unable to ever fully read the disks for the Accelerated X server, I ended up dropping a network card into the system and transfering the disk images over the net. Another floppy problem included trying to copy a simple 128k file from one computer to mine (In Windows 95, to Windows 95). The file was copied on one computer, and put into the possessed computer. Attempts to read the file (copy) ended in a disk failure, even though he could read off the disk just fine. I formatted the disk on the possessed computer, no hard errors. We copied the file again, he could read it from his computer, I could read it from FreeBSD on a _different_ PC system, but trying to read it from this possessed computer ended in a disk error. Finally I mounted the disk (-tmsdos), cp'd the confused file onto my freebsd file system and re-copied it back onto the msdos disk, THEN the possessed computer read it (!?!). The company I bought the computer from is doing their best to place the blame on me having it configured dual boot with FreeBSD, which simply sounds like them trying to gimp out. I have swapped the drive for others and the error still occurs. I have swapped the cable, no difference. The only other conclusion I can reach is it IS the i/o. Also, I have a CDROM on the same i/o system, configured EXACTLY like everybody suggests, the hardware is all supposedly supported. I have tried it as the master on the second device and the slave on the first device (with the other disk), neither configuration works. When FreeBSD boots it simply does not find the CDROM. I have also noted odd behavior with the hard drive, but I am unsure if that is usual behaviour for the a western digital caviar 1.02 gb drive (It periodically makes a nasty loud sound like its vibrating and resonating in the case, upon bootup. It is a rare occurance, but it gives one a shaky feeling about the stability and security of the data on their system). Does this sound like an i/o problem? If so, can I hack up a program that will probe the i/o and tickle its inner workings to show actual errors? How would one do this? (BTW, reading from a floppy disk in FreeBSD usually ends with about 50-100 fd0 timeouts ending with an fdsc sector read error--the disk is usually completely readable from other computers). Help? :) -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jul 2 15:38:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06155 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tombstone.sunrem.com (tombstone.sunrem.com [206.81.134.54]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA06149 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brandon@localhost) by tombstone.sunrem.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00624 for freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:38:46 -0600 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:38:46 -0600 From: Brandon Gillespie Message-Id: <199607022238.QAA00624@tombstone.sunrem.com> To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: (More) pushing a motherboard to test errors? Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The motherboard is a Triton-I chipset with an intel pentium 100 processor. From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jul 2 23:01:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA06966 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA06954 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA10772; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607030600.XAA10772@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Kevin Swanson cc: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 28 Jun 96 14:00:10 -0400. <9606281800.AA05807@BLaCKSMITH.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:00:52 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Someone mentioned using a Cyclades-8 port serial card at 115.2 KBps. Is that >with 16550's? Cyclades is a proprietary design with some kind of (Cirrus Logic?) RISC-based chip, from what I've been told. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jul 2 23:04:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA07214 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA07207 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA10791; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607030603.XAA10791@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Christopher D. Cofer" cc: Michael Smith , Kevin Swanson , freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 28 Jun 96 13:46:11 -0500. Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:03:51 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Michael Smith wrote: >> Kevin Swanson stands accused of saying: > >> > I've seen that some people have have used Digi PC/8 boards for this >> >type of thing? Digi also has "intelligent" models (PC/Xe, PC/Xr, >> >PC/Xem) that have a front-end processor and don't require an interrupt >> >on the computer? Has anybody gotten these "intelligent" boards to work >> >with freebsd 2.1? >> >> Of course, but any "intelligent" serial board will conflict with your >> "save some money" requirement; the cost per port is over double that >> of a "dumb" card, and in your case it's not warranted. > >The question remains... Does FreeBSD work with "intelligent" digboard >cards. I have a machine that I would like to route between ppp and >local net. I choose Linux to do so, since at the time all I could find >about BSD and digiboard PC/Xe was that it was not possible. If this has >changed, would someone please point me to the correct information about >setting this up. I am getting tired of messing with Linux. Digiboard isn't the only company that makes multiport cards. I think I've seen posts alluding to Digiboard support, but that's as much as I know about Digiboard. Cyclades makes quite decent eight and sixteen port cards. If you already spent a bunch of money on Digiboards, well... good luck. :-) If you can buy a Cyclades to try it out, go for it -- I *know* they work, because I am running one on FreeBSD right now. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Tue Jul 2 23:43:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA10169 for hardware-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA10161 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA11047; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607030641.XAA11047@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net (Jacob M. Parnas), henry@zoo.toronto.edu, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 29 Jun 96 17:14:29 +0930. <199606290744.RAA20801@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:41:55 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >What's the difference between an ethernet card and a high-speed serial >card other than the name and the shape of the connectors? >(Aside from performance, of course) The fact that one handles things a character at a time, interrupting for every few, and the other handles things a "packet" at a time, interrupting for every "packet-full" of data. There's an order of magnitude scaling difference there. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 00:09:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA12291 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12276 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA11148; Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607030657.XAA11148@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net (Jacob M. Parnas), stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 30 Jun 96 01:06:38 +0930. <199606291536.BAA21513@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:57:07 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Thanks for the information. But as I said in a recent message, the new TI >> chip can go over 900Kbaud/sec. This isn't so fast. Its 1/10th the speed >> of old ethernet and 1/100 of new 100 Mbit/sec ethernet. >As I've already said, the 16550 will go faster. The problem is that the >programming model for the 16550 makes no provision for more divider steps, >and thus any software that wants to talk to either of these chips must be >modified to understand the higher speeds. > >Quatech do a card called the DS-100 with a pair of PC16550D's and an 18MHz >clock and a jumperable /1 /2 /5 /10 divider that will allow your to >run your 16550 ports significantly faster. The Hayes ESP cards have a software programmable divider. Default is 1x, which in 16550-compat mode gives you a max of 115,200bps. You can use the software config program with the card and program a 1x, 2x, 4x, or 8x multiplyer (if I remember right). Meaning that if you had the 8x multiplyer set, you could set it so Free/NetBSD thought you were doing 115,200bps, but the port would really be pumping 921,600bps. I don't know for sure (don't have the programming docs nearby), but I suspect that the multiplier can also be set via the "enhanced-mode" programming registers. Both NetBSD-current and FreeBSD-current have explicit support for the ESP card (to set bigger high/low-water marks on the buffer, and send in larger bursts). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 01:49:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19191 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 01:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA19184 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 01:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA09055 for hardware@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 18:09:56 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199607030839.SAA09055@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: slow receive on WD8013EBT? To: hardware@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 18:09:55 +0930 (CST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Got an odd one here; I have a WD8013EBT in a system that's misbehaving - it transmits just fine, but when receiving seems to only pick up one interrupt a second, meaning that it's Very Slow 8( I've tried this under 2.1R and the 2.2-960501 SNAP with no change in results, so I can only assume it's a hardware funny, but can't guess what... 8( Any ideas? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 04:33:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA02135 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 04:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA01576 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 04:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA25900; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:39:33 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id OAA25030; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:39:31 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199607031139.OAA25030@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: michaelv@HeadCandy.com (Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:39:30 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: cofer@www.cas.unt.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607030603.XAA10791@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> from "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" at Jul 2, 96 11:03:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk # If you already spent a bunch of money on Digiboards, well... good # luck. :-) If you can buy a Cyclades to try it out, go for it -- I # *know* they work, because I am running one on FreeBSD right now. Hello Michael and people, and who can enlighten me about Stallion cards? (I'm looking for PCI, 16 or 32 ports device, be it Stallion, Cyclades, Digiboard or whoever). At least 16 ports, PCI, and FreeBSD support _are_ the requirements. Any experiences? opinions? suggestions? -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. Phones/fax: +380 (44) { 244-0122, 276-0188, 271-3457, 271-3560 } "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 04:39:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA02595 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 04:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA02589 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 04:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA09481; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 21:00:35 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199607031130.VAA09481@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Installing Stable on 386/33 No Boot Prompt. To: cofer@www.cas.unt.edu (Christopher D. Cofer) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 21:00:35 +0930 (CST) Cc: tom@sdf.com, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Christopher D. Cofer" at Jul 2, 96 08:13:08 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christopher D. Cofer stands accused of saying: > > > I found the problem. I removed the SIIG controller and replaced it with > a simple IDE controller. It worked fine. Is the on board BIOS on > controllers not supported under FBSD? It's not a question of FreeBSD not "supporting" these controllers; the problem is that the onboard BIOSses don't behave properly, and thus the FreeBSD bootloader fails. Because very few people have the time or inclination to patch perfectly correct and functional software to work with inferior, broken hardware, these sort of things don't get "fixed". > * Christopher Don Cofer College of Arts * -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 05:47:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA04419 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 05:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk ([130.225.204.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA04414 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 05:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA14182; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:44:46 +0200 Message-Id: <199607031244.OAA14182@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua (Andrew V. Stesin) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:44:46 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, cofer@www.cas.unt.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607031139.OAA25030@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> from "Andrew V. Stesin" at Jul 3, 96 02:39:30 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Andrew V. Stesin who wrote: > > # If you already spent a bunch of money on Digiboards, well... good > # luck. :-) If you can buy a Cyclades to try it out, go for it -- I > # *know* they work, because I am running one on FreeBSD right now. > > Hello Michael and people, > > and who can enlighten me about Stallion cards? > > (I'm looking for PCI, 16 or 32 ports device, be it > Stallion, Cyclades, Digiboard or whoever). > At least 16 ports, PCI, and FreeBSD support _are_ the > requirements. I'm currently using two of their old ONBoard cards. Both are 16 ports/ISA types. If their newer cards are of the same quality I can only recommend them. I run both cards at their full speed (38400) on all 16 ports, works very nice... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 06:02:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA05265 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA05258 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA09601; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 22:13:12 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199607031243.WAA09601@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua (Andrew V. Stesin) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 22:13:12 +0930 (CST) Cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, cofer@www.cas.unt.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607031139.OAA25030@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> from "Andrew V. Stesin" at Jul 3, 96 02:39:30 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew V. Stesin stands accused of saying: > > Hello Michael and people, > > and who can enlighten me about Stallion cards? gerg@stallion.com.au wrote and supports the FreeBSD driver for the entire range of Stallion cards. > (I'm looking for PCI, 16 or 32 ports device, be it > Stallion, Cyclades, Digiboard or whoever). > At least 16 ports, PCI, and FreeBSD support _are_ the > requirements. I'm curious - why PCI? Stallion have an excellent reputation and their gear is available prettymuch anywhere in the worl; I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them if you're serious about your hardware. > With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 06:25:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA07047 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA06825; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA00462; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:41:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id QAA03393; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:41:21 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199607031341.QAA03393@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:41:21 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, michaelv@HeadCandy.com, cofer@www.cas.unt.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607031243.WAA09601@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jul 3, 96 10:13:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Mike, # > and who can enlighten me about Stallion cards? # # gerg@stallion.com.au wrote and supports the FreeBSD driver for the # entire range of Stallion cards. Thanks for the pointer! (I tried mailto:info@stallion.com recently, and didn't get any useful information, signal/noise was ~0.0 in their reply). # > (I'm looking for PCI, 16 or 32 ports device, be it # > Stallion, Cyclades, Digiboard or whoever). # > At least 16 ports, PCI, and FreeBSD support _are_ the # > requirements. # # I'm curious - why PCI? Something makes me beleive that if I want more than 16 ports at 115200 per box, there would be two bottlenecks: 1. tty-level driver overhead, that's what I'm watching now with 16 FIFOed ports in 486dx4/100 -- interrupt load is tiny, and most of CPU is eaten by system. "Smart" card with it's own CPU (I treat it like an I/O co-processor) should minimize this factor. (?) 2. ISA bus itself, no matter what will I put into it. We don't have any EISA slots; so PCI is left. (And should I mention the fact that there are boxes around of non-Intel architectures running unices, which have PCI slots but no ISA slots?) Yes, probably I'm wrong and ISA can deal i.e. with 32x115200; but how reliable will this configuration be? # Stallion have an excellent reputation and their gear # is available prettymuch anywhere in the worl; Still absent here in Ukraine, for a pity. # I wouldn't hesitate to # recommend them if you're serious about your hardware. Thanks, got it. -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. Phones/fax: +380 (44) { 244-0122, 276-0188, 271-3457, 271-3560 } "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 06:28:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA07262 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA07243; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id GAA04990 ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:21:40 -0700 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29329; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:28:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id QAA02893; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:28:08 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199607031328.QAA02893@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:28:08 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, michaelv@HeadCandy.com, cofer@www.cas.unt.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, isp@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607031244.OAA14182@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Jul 3, 96 02:44:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello again, # > and who can enlighten me about Stallion cards? # > # > (I'm looking for PCI, 16 or 32 ports device, be it # > Stallion, Cyclades, Digiboard or whoever). # > At least 16 ports, PCI, and FreeBSD support _are_ the # > requirements. # Hi So:ren, you say: # I'm currently using two of their old ONBoard cards. Both are # 16 ports/ISA types. If their newer cards are of the same # quality I can only recommend them. I run both cards at their # full speed (38400) on all 16 ports, works very nice... We have several MOXA C104+ (4 ports) and C128+ (8 ports) boards now, theyr'e with 16550 chips and are Ok with all channels at 57600, up to 16 channels per 486 box; FreeBSD performs flawlessly, no overloads or overruns. (Thanks to Bruce Evans and sio.c hackers!) So I should certainly add: simultaneous speed of 115200 on _all_ ports is required too -- otherwise, will I gain something better from this "smart" boards than I'm getting now from good old FIFOs? -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. Phones/fax: +380 (44) { 244-0122, 276-0188, 271-3457, 271-3560 } "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 07:18:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA09612 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA09578; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA05146 ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:16:53 -0700 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29329; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:28:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id QAA02893; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:28:08 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199607031328.QAA02893@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: sos@FreeBSD.org Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:28:08 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, michaelv@HeadCandy.com, cofer@www.cas.unt.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, isp@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607031244.OAA14182@ra.dkuug.dk> from "sos@FreeBSD.org" at Jul 3, 96 02:44:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello again, # > and who can enlighten me about Stallion cards? # > # > (I'm looking for PCI, 16 or 32 ports device, be it # > Stallion, Cyclades, Digiboard or whoever). # > At least 16 ports, PCI, and FreeBSD support _are_ the # > requirements. # Hi So:ren, you say: # I'm currently using two of their old ONBoard cards. Both are # 16 ports/ISA types. If their newer cards are of the same # quality I can only recommend them. I run both cards at their # full speed (38400) on all 16 ports, works very nice... We have several MOXA C104+ (4 ports) and C128+ (8 ports) boards now, theyr'e with 16550 chips and are Ok with all channels at 57600, up to 16 channels per 486 box; FreeBSD performs flawlessly, no overloads or overruns. (Thanks to Bruce Evans and sio.c hackers!) So I should certainly add: simultaneous speed of 115200 on _all_ ports is required too -- otherwise, will I gain something better from this "smart" boards than I'm getting now from good old FIFOs? -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. Phones/fax: +380 (44) { 244-0122, 276-0188, 271-3457, 271-3560 } "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 07:39:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA12984 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA12241 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA02338; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:57:04 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id RAA04815; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:57:04 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199607031457.RAA04815@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:57:03 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607031402.XAA09755@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Jul 3, 96 11:32:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk # Sales people are universally useless. I almost always try to make # contact with technical staff when evaluating a product. That's life... I wasn't lucky enough to get a person's name from them, -- but I was dumb enough to forget that I can look at copyright notice in the driver :-) # > 1. tty-level driver overhead, that's what I'm watching # > now with 16 FIFOed ports in 486dx4/100 -- interrupt # > load is tiny, and most of CPU is eaten by system. # > "Smart" card with it's own CPU (I treat it like # > an I/O co-processor) should minimize this factor. (?) # # No. None of the 'smart' cards currently around perform any tty processing. Won't tty-level overhead decrease when the data flow through a port will be going in bigger chunks? # > 2. ISA bus itself, no matter what will I put into it. # > We don't have any EISA slots; so PCI is left. # > (And should I mention the fact that there are boxes around # > of non-Intel architectures running unices, which # > have PCI slots but no ISA slots?) Yes, probably I'm # > wrong and ISA can deal i.e. with 32x115200; but how # > reliable will this configuration be? # # This is a significant issue. 32x115200 is ~350K/sec. presuming 100% # efficiency. IIRC, Bruce quoted more like 50%, so the ISA bus would be # prettymuch saturated. A 'smart' card with a shared-memory interface # might be more efficient in this case. That's precisely what I meant. Pentium won't help here :-) About shared-memory interface -- doesn't it work through the same ISA bus, anyway? Yes, it will decrease interrupt load, but won't it keep ISA bus busy -- this way or another? -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. Phones/fax: +380 (44) { 244-0122, 276-0188, 271-3457, 271-3560 } "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 09:50:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23371 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 09:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.winc.com (mgessner@home.winc.com [204.178.182.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23365 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 09:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mgessner@localhost) by home.winc.com (8.7.1/8.7.3) id MAA24313 for freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:50:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199607031650.MAA24313@home.winc.com> Subject: ZIP drives? To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hardware) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:50:20 -0400 (EDT) From: mgessner@winc.com Organization: Aristar Software Development, Inc. Reply-To: mgessner@winc.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, Don't think I saw this anywhere.. Does FreeBSD 2.1.0 support IOMega ZIP drives (SCSI)? TIA, Matt From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 11:08:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04219 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA04204 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.24]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09210; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09516; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:08:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: mgessner@winc.com cc: FreeBSD Hardware Subject: Re: ZIP drives? In-Reply-To: <199607031650.MAA24313@home.winc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Jul 1996 mgessner@winc.com wrote: > Hi all, > > Don't think I saw this anywhere.. > > Does FreeBSD 2.1.0 support IOMega ZIP drives (SCSI)? The scsi interface one, yes. I don't think the parallel interface is supported yet. I run a scsi one myself. > > TIA, > > Matt > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 13:32:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA23065 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA23029; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA15101; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:27:05 +1000 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:27:05 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607032027.GAA15101@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Cc: Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, cofer@www.cas.unt.edu, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org, michaelv@HeadCandy.com Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ># I'm curious - why PCI? > Something makes me beleive that if I want more than 16 ports > at 115200 per box, there would be two bottlenecks: > 1. tty-level driver overhead, that's what I'm watching > now with 16 FIFOed ports in 486dx4/100 -- interrupt > load is tiny, and most of CPU is eaten by system. No, interrupt load is large. Serial hardware interrupt overheads (for drivers with fast interrupt handlers like sio and cy) are not counted because the drivers mask statclock interrupts. The overheads are added to the overheads of whatever happens to be running when the serial interrupts occur. On a 486DX/2/66 with 16550s (non-multiport; add 25-33% to interrupt overheads for multiport) or cd1400s, the overheads are approximately: source overhead relative ------ serial interrupt overheads 3% per 11KB 1 system overheads for termios raw mode input 3.3 1 system overheads for cslip input 3.7 1+ system overheads for pppd input 6.1 2 system overheads for termios cooked mode input huge (50?) 16 The system overheads are easy to reduce by replacing the 486/33 with a Pentium. The interrupt overheads are mostly I/O overheads so they are hard to reduce because boards with fast I/O are hard to find. > "Smart" card with it's own CPU (I treat it like > an I/O co-processor) should minimize this factor. (?) Only if the driver supports the smartness. This isn't easy, because the upper tty layers want to do their own line discipline processing. None of the FreeBSD serial drivers supports smartness. > 2. ISA bus itself, no matter what will I put into it. This is the main bottleneck on anything faster than a DX2/66, at least if 8-bit I/O is used. The overheads for Comtrol RocketPorts would be about half as small because RocketPorts support 16-bit I/O. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 13:51:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA24465 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA24458 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id GAA15967; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:47:36 +1000 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:47:36 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607032047.GAA15967@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Cc: hardware@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ># > 1. tty-level driver overhead, that's what I'm watching ># > now with 16 FIFOed ports in 486dx4/100 -- interrupt ># > load is tiny, and most of CPU is eaten by system. ># > "Smart" card with it's own CPU (I treat it like ># > an I/O co-processor) should minimize this factor. (?) ># ># No. None of the 'smart' cards currently around perform any tty processing. > Won't tty-level overhead decrease when the data flow through a port > will be going in bigger chunks? Only if 'smart' actually means 'fast' :-). 16550 output already has a chunk size of 16 bytes. Since 8-bit ISA I/O is so slow, this size is large enough to get most of the benefits of chunking. 16550 input is about twice as slow (on >= 486's) as 16550 output because the status register has to be read for every byte of input. The input chunk size is large enough for the UART interface to become the bottleneck. ># > 2. ISA bus itself, no matter what will I put into it. ># > ... Yes, probably I'm ># > wrong and ISA can deal i.e. with 32x115200; but how ># > reliable will this configuration be? ># ># This is a significant issue. 32x115200 is ~350K/sec. presuming 100% ># efficiency. IIRC, Bruce quoted more like 50%, so the ISA bus would be You forgot output. 32x115200bps is ~700K/sec. 16 ports is already 350K/sec. This will take about 80% of the CPU for ISA I/O alone (assuming 16550s and 2 I/O's per byte). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hardware Wed Jul 3 14:26:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA26797 for hardware-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA26790 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.eu.org [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA07503; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 23:26:40 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA04422; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 23:26:18 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.Alpha.5/keltia-uucp-2.8) id XAA12294; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 23:23:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: Ollivier Robert Message-Id: <199607032123.XAA12294@keltia.freenix.fr> Subject: Re: slow receive on WD8013EBT? To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 23:23:29 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607030839.SAA09055@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Jul 3, 96 06:09:55 pm" X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT ctm#2178 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that Michael Smith said: > Got an odd one here; I have a WD8013EBT in a system that's misbehaving - > it transmits just fine, but when receiving seems to only pick up one > interrupt a second, meaning that it's Very Slow 8( I got that as well a while ago. The card died a few months ago and all the symptoms were the same. Sorry. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 2.2-CURRENT #12: Sun Jun 30 14:10:07 MET DST 1996 From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jul 4 01:32:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA11914 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 01:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ra.dkuug.dk (ra.dkuug.dk [193.88.44.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA11886; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 01:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by ra.dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14526; Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:46:33 +0200 Message-Id: <199607031346.PAA14526@ra.dkuug.dk> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua (Andrew V. Stesin) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:46:28 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@FreeBSD.org, stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, michaelv@HeadCandy.com, cofer@www.cas.unt.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.org, isp@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199607031328.QAA02893@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> from "Andrew V. Stesin" at Jul 3, 96 04:28:08 pm From: sos@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: sos@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Andrew V. Stesin who wrote: > > We have several MOXA C104+ (4 ports) and C128+ (8 ports) > boards now, theyr'e with 16550 chips and are Ok with > all channels at 57600, up to 16 channels per 486 box; > FreeBSD performs flawlessly, no overloads or overruns. > (Thanks to Bruce Evans and sio.c hackers!) > > So I should certainly add: > simultaneous speed of 115200 on _all_ ports is required > too -- otherwise, will I gain something better from this > "smart" boards than I'm getting now from good old FIFOs? Well, the reason I don't run the ONBoards faster is that they are quite old, and cannot be programmed higher (I guess that was pretty cool with 38400 in 1988 :). I belive some of their newer products can handle 115200 if not more... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Soren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team So much code to hack -- so little time. From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jul 4 01:51:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13108 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 01:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA12507; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 01:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA25714; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:04:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id MAA23321; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:04:30 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199607040904.MAA23321@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:04:30 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: hardware@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607032027.GAA15101@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Jul 4, 96 06:27:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [... Cc: trimmed ...] Thanks alot for the explanation, Bruce! # source overhead relative # ------ # serial interrupt overheads 3% per 11KB 1 # system overheads for termios raw mode input 3.3 1 # system overheads for cslip input 3.7 1+ # system overheads for pppd input 6.1 2 # system overheads for termios cooked mode input huge (50?) 16 # # The system overheads are easy to reduce by replacing the 486/33 with a # Pentium. The interrupt overheads are mostly I/O overheads so they are # hard to reduce because boards with fast I/O are hard to find. So an idea to get a PCI board seems to be pretty reasonable... # > 2. ISA bus itself, no matter what will I put into it. # # This is the main bottleneck on anything faster than a DX2/66, at least # if 8-bit I/O is used. The overheads for Comtrol RocketPorts would be # about half as small because RocketPorts support 16-bit I/O. Anyway, ISA is a dead-end, I think. (Consider the following: 16 ports seems to be an upper limit for ISA card at 8MHz, even if it's 16bit "smart" one -- simply because it's ISA. PCI has 33Mhz => 4 times faster, it's a 32bit bus => add two times more. So PCI intellgent card should be able to handle at least 8 times more ports at full speed, => up to 128 ones! And just today I have a headache -- we already have 16 ports busy on a dialup server, what will I do when some 2 more lines will come? Seems that getting a smart PCI serial device is the easiest solution and a more reasonable investment than a second server, considering added complexity of distributed system). # Bruce # -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. Phones/fax: +380 (44) { 244-0122, 276-0188, 271-3457, 271-3560 } "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jul 4 06:11:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25285 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perseus.ultra.net (perseus.ultra.net [199.232.56.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA25265; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kbranco (d38.nbd.ma.ultra.net [146.115.57.38]) by perseus.ultra.net (8.7.4/dae0.6) with SMTP id JAA25358; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960704131341.006ffed0@ma.ultranet.com> X-Sender: kbranco@ma.ultranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 09:13:41 -0400 To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.com From: Kenny Subject: XFree86 and Cirrus CL-GD5434 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.com Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk While I am currently looking over all the docs I can find, I was hoping to find someone who has made this combo work. The card has 1024K of memory. The maximum resolution on the monitor is 1024 X 768. I am sure I put all the right numbers into the xf86config setup. The display looks "out of resolution" with thin streaks of black lines. I have FreeBSD 2.1 from the CD. Thanks for the input!! /Kenny/ From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jul 4 06:24:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25934 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deputy.pavilion.co.uk (deputy.pavilion.co.uk [194.242.128.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA25929 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 06:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup2-16.pavilion.co.uk (dialup2-16.pavilion.co.uk [194.242.131.144]) by deputy.pavilion.co.uk (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id OAA20892 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:24:21 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199607041324.OAA20892@deputy.pavilion.co.uk> X-Sender: aledm@mailhost.pavilion.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 14:24:39 +0100 To: hardware@freebsd.org From: Aled Morris Subject: RNS quad Ethernet card Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does the RNS Quad Fast Ethernet adaptor work with the "de" drivers in FreeBSD? It features four 21140's and supports DMA (according to the web page). I tried to find a DEC quad Ethernet card, but they don't seem to make one (I'm sure I read about one sometime last year though). SMC have a dual card, 10Mbps (anyone tried it?) Aled -- telephone +44 973 207987 O- From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jul 4 08:59:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03379 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flopsy.hobart.TASed.EDU.AU (root@flopsy.hobart.TASed.EDU.AU [147.41.41.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03374 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 08:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by flopsy.hobart.TASed.EDU.AU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA01211 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 01:59:17 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 01:59:16 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Reply-To: Andrew To: freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Racal InterLan NI5210 and SCO drivers? Message-ID: X-wibble: WonK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi All, I have a Racal InterLan ethernet card type NI5210 (8 bit). It isnt in the supported ethernet card list. I wondered (hoped :-) that this was an ommision and it really was supported or that I could use some other driver with it. Racal have drivers for SCO available...Is there anyway I could use these? Are there any things I could try? Andrew -- mango takes advantage of the lack of t on sendmail From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jul 4 09:14:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03980 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 09:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ptavv.nsta.org (ptavv.gfoster.com [199.0.2.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03969 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 09:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gfoster@localhost) by ptavv.nsta.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id MAA00706; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:09:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Glen Foster Message-Id: <199607041609.MAA00706@ptavv.nsta.org> To: aledm@routers.co.uk CC: hardware@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199607041324.OAA20892@deputy.pavilion.co.uk> (message from Aled Morris on Thu, 04 Jul 1996 14:24:39 +0100) Subject: Re: RNS quad Ethernet card Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am using a Znyx 4 port 10baseT card model 314 on 2.1R without problems. They also have a four port 10/100 model 342 and 100 only model 344. FCC: /Users/glen/Mailboxes/outgoing ZNYX 48501 Warm Springs Blvd. Suite 107 Fremont, CA 94539 510-249-0800 >Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 14:24:39 +0100 >From: Aled Morris > >Does the RNS Quad >Fast Ethernet adaptor work with the "de" drivers in FreeBSD? > >It features four 21140's and supports DMA (according to the web page). > >I tried to find a DEC quad Ethernet card, but they don't seem to make >one (I'm sure I read about one sometime last year though). > >SMC have a dual card, 10Mbps (anyone tried it?) From owner-freebsd-hardware Thu Jul 4 09:35:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04972 for hardware-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 09:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from warp10.warp10.com ([207.6.190.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA04965 for ; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 09:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from matt.warp10.com by warp10.warp10.com via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id MAA09045; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:32:53 -0400 Received: by matt.warp10.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BB69A5.21B2B1E0@matt.warp10.com>; Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:34:23 -0400 Message-ID: <01BB69A5.21B2B1E0@matt.warp10.com> From: warp10 To: "'freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG'" Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:34:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 03:47:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA07072 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA07049; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 03:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA00165; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:36:58 +1000 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:36:58 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199607051036.UAA00165@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server Cc: hardware@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So an idea to get a PCI board seems to be pretty reasonable... If the PCI interface is actually faster. > Anyway, ISA is a dead-end, I think. (Consider the following: > 16 ports seems to be an upper limit for ISA card at 8MHz, even if > it's 16bit "smart" one -- simply because it's ISA. > PCI has 33Mhz => 4 times faster, > it's a 32bit bus => add two times more. So PCI intellgent Only for 32bit peripherals. Not for 8-bit peripherals like 16550s and cd1400s. These have at most 1/2 the bandwidth of the ISA bus because they use only 1/2 its width. In practice they usually have only 1/5 the bandwidth of the ISA bus because they don't support insb/outsb. > card should be able to handle at least 8 times more ports > at full speed, => up to 128 ones! And just today I have The software overhead would be too large for more than 32 or 64 * 115200 bps on a Pentium. Fortunately, modems can't sustain 115200 bps. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 05:26:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA12543 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 05:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA12538 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 05:26:55 -0700 (PDT) From: MichaelGoe@aol.com Received: by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA12324 for hardware@freebsd.org; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:27:24 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:27:24 -0400 Message-ID: <960705082724_149338311@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Help with PAS16 Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I cannot get FreeBSD 2.1 to recognize my sound card. I have these in the config.sys controller snd0 device pas0 at isa? port 0x388 irq 10 confilicts drq 6 vector pasintr device sb0 at isa? prot 0x220 irq 5 conflicts drq 1 vectro sbintr devise opl0 at isa? port 0x388 conflicts options EXCLUDE_SBPRO options "SBC_IRQ=5" I added the conflicts foor the pas0 becuase I have a Mitsumi CD-rom on IRQ 10. As a mounted drive the cd-rom works fine. During boot-up, it does recognize my sound card, however; using cdplayer it tells me that the device is not configured, and with xcd it I get a broken pipe error. I''ve spent days on this and any and all help would be appreciated. Michael G. From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 06:30:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA16446 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 06:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com ([206.26.1.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA16439 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 06:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shogun.tdktca.com (daemon@localhost) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id IAA15334 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:31:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fa.tdktca.com (bsd.fa.tdktca.com [163.49.131.129]) by shogun.tdktca.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id IAA15328 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:31:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by fa.tdktca.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id IAA18218; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:33:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:33:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Alex Nash To: MichaelGoe@aol.com cc: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Help with PAS16 In-Reply-To: <960705082724_149338311@emout15.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 5 Jul 1996 MichaelGoe@aol.com wrote: > I cannot get FreeBSD 2.1 to recognize my sound card. > > I have these in the config.sys > controller snd0 > device pas0 at isa? port 0x388 irq 10 confilicts drq 6 vector pasintr ^^^^^^^^^^ > device sb0 at isa? prot 0x220 irq 5 conflicts drq 1 vectro sbintr ^^^^^^ > devise opl0 at isa? port 0x388 conflicts ^^^^^^ Was this a direct cut & paste, or a typo when you retyped it? Alex From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 12:15:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA28451 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Vorlon.odc.net (nwestfal@Vorlon.odc.net [206.250.32.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28427 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nwestfal@localhost) by Vorlon.odc.net (8.7.1/8.7.1) id MAA29768; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:16:21 -0700 From: Neal Westfall Message-Id: <199607051916.MAA29768@Vorlon.odc.net> Subject: Re: Racal InterLan NI5210 and SCO drivers? To: andrew@ugh.net.au Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hardware@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Andrew" at Jul 5, 96 01:59:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The ie driver works with the NI5210, although when I used it at least a year ago the driver didn't work very well, and I assume this driver has not significantly changed in that time. Throughput was very slow. About 56K/sec or so if I remember right. I remember getting much better throughput when I put the card in a dos machine. To be sure, it is not a very good card at all, and the best bet is probably to replace them with some cheap NE2000 clones. > > Hi All, > > I have a Racal InterLan ethernet card type NI5210 (8 bit). It isnt in the > supported ethernet card list. I wondered (hoped :-) that this was an > ommision and it really was supported or that I could use some other driver > with it. > > Racal have drivers for SCO available...Is there anyway I could use these? > Are there any things I could try? > > Andrew > -- > mango takes advantage of the lack of t on sendmail > > From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 12:43:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04329 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04312 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA02847; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:40:57 -0400 Message-Id: <199607051940.PAA02847@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Smith cc: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 30 Jun 1996 01:06:38 +0930. <199606291536.BAA21513@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 15:40:54 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199606291536.BAA21513@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>you write: >Jacob M. Parnas stands accused of saying: >> >> Thanks for the information. But as I said in a recent message, the new TI >> chip can go over 900Kbaud/sec. This isn't so fast. Its 1/10th the speed >> of old ethernet and 1/100 of new 100 Mbit/sec ethernet. > >As I've already said, the 16550 will go faster. The problem is that the >programming model for the 16550 makes no provision for more divider steps, >and thus any software that wants to talk to either of these chips must be >modified to understand the higher speeds. > >Quatech do a card called the DS-100 with a pair of PC16550D's and an 18MHz >clock and a jumperable /1 /2 /5 /10 divider that will allow your to >run your 16550 ports significantly faster. > >Unfortunately, they tried to implement the card properly, and as such >we have had serious problems with the cards in fast (>486/33) machines. It shouldn't be a hard thing. Simply build a fifo which has say a 1 Megabit of memory on it (pretty cheap these days). It sends an interrupt if it goes from full to not full or another if it reaches half full. If known by the kernel not to be empty, empty it 25 times/second (if it was full at 10 MB/sec, it would be emptied in 1/80th of a second.) That's fast, cheap, and will go very fast. I'm not even hardware oriented, but can see that it wouldn't be hard or difficult to build or program, and would support very fast I/O. The reason current UARTs are always falling behind is poor design and poor forethought into the even near future. The above could be vastly improved by a hardware expert, but the technology or design ability isn't the problem. Early UARTs had 1 or 2 bytes of buffering. Of course there would be trouble. Memory is so cheap now and even ISDN with full compression (on a compressable file) is so slow even to computers 10 years ago (look at ethernet). It came standard on every Sun 3/50 or 2/50 (I think). Even 10 Mbit ethernet is 20 times faster than full ISDN with 4:1 compressable data being sent (1/2 Mbit/sec) (very rare). >Serial ports like that are intended as console ports or for debugging >the system during development. Standard network design philosphy does >not allow for compute servers to have heavy I/O. Look at the Encore >Multimax for a good example of this; lots of compute, lots of disk & >memory, but Encore built its serial I/O into a seperate box and called >it an Annex. Why do modems have to go on a seperate box if ethernet can easily and cheaply be handled within the computer (even 100Mbit/sec ethernet) or 40 MB/sec SCSI-3 systems? Again, its like DOS thinking "who would ever need over 640 Kbyte of RAM?". Poor forethought and design is the problem. >> The costs are $68 for my line install (cheaper, I think than my >> analog second line) $25-35/month telco (about same as analog) about >> $60 vs $20 for analog for unlimited usage. $.01/min/channel >> (biggest problem. In southern CA, I have a friend who doesn't the >> surcharge per minute on weekends and I think northern CA may be even >> cheaper. $400 for "modem/terminal adapter" and Unix driver. (may be >> lower in some places. > >Your americocentricity is appalling. In most of the civilised world, >ISDN is still outrageously expensive. I see. Its OK to criticize a message for being useless to people on "the other side of the pond", yet a joke the other way is unacceptable to you. >> I prefer to be able to get a contracted support policy, which I don't think >> FreeBSD has. Therefore, I'm going with BSDI. I'd rather not be down for >> a long time because of maintainer of a piece of code is on vacation for 3 >> weeks. BSDI has a paid for support contract which requires them to fix >> things promptly for not much money. > >You should try talking to Karl Denninger (or perhaps just read his posts >to the various FreeBSD lists) before you make the choice. Search for >karl@mcs.net (or just mail him and ask). I'm on this FreeBSD list and support it. Yet each OS has its pros and cons. I think the warm feeling of having a supported OS is a very big pro. Maybe you don't care. But considering a problem like 40 programmers trying to get a Microvax II to run Unix for a month due to an unexpected problem (since the Unix OS used an instruction that VMS didn't), or other bugs that pass major Q/A tests, I'd like to know that there's a company standing behind fixing problems. These bugs happen. If you care to try to fix it yourself and do your normal work, your welcome to do so. I'll take support. That also is my right. FreeBSD has some good ideas. I'm not against it. But I have to choose an OS to run and I think BSDI is a cost-efficient way to run Unix fast and has some great programmers (as well as FreeBSD) doing the work and fixing bugs, without other jobs that can't just be dropped if there's a major problem in their code. >> After being burned by it once, I've been careful since to avoid such problems. > >Your naivete' is touching. Back to the personal insults. This is where I step off. I have better things to do than act like elementary school kids trading insults. What's next? "My daddy can beat up your daddy". Jacob M. Parnas > >-- >]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ >]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ >]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ >]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 13:00:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05545 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from persprog.com (persprog.com [204.215.255.203]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA05532 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by persprog.com (8.7.5/4.10) id OAA08992; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:54:41 -0500 Received: from novell(192.2.2.201) by cerberus.ppi.com via smap (V1.3) id sma008990; Fri Jul 5 15:54:32 1996 Received: from NOVELL/SpoolDir by novell.persprog.com (Mercury 1.12); Fri, 5 Jul 96 15:51:03 +0500 Received: from SpoolDir by NOVELL (Mercury 1.12); Fri, 5 Jul 96 15:50:53 +0500 From: "David Alderman" Organization: Personalized Programming, Inc. To: hardware@freeBSD.ORG, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:50:50 EST Subject: Re: slow receive on WD8013EBT? Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.31) Message-ID: <14D516F49@novell.persprog.com> Sender: owner-hardware@freeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: Ollivier Robert > It seems that Michael Smith said: > > Got an odd one here; I have a WD8013EBT in a system that's misbehaving - > > it transmits just fine, but when receiving seems to only pick up one > > interrupt a second, meaning that it's Very Slow 8( > > I got that as well a while ago. The card died a few months ago and all the > symptoms were the same. Sorry. I had a similar problem a long time ago - it seems the shared memory on the board was showing up at multiple locations in the memory map intermittently. My advice is get a new card. ====================================== When philosophy conflicts with reality, choose reality. Dave Alderman -- dave@persprog.com ====================================== From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 13:03:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA05680 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA05671 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA02903; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:02:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199607052002.QAA02903@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: mrm@sceard.com (M.R.Murphy) cc: freebsd-hardware@freefall.freebsd.org, admin@ftcnet.com, mrm@marmot.mole.org X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: Hi-speed serial input for Pagesat HS-2000? In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 07:50:18 PDT. <9606290750.AA17683@Sceard.COM> Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:02:30 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <9606290750.AA17683@Sceard.COM>you write: >>was Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server >>On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Jacob M. Parnas wrote: >> >>> >> I'm confused. I thought the 16550 was good up to 115,200 baud, but when >>> >> ISDN eventually takes over with compression, ~512kbaud will be the norm. >>> >> I don't know if they can handle that... >>> > >>> The TI 17550 can go up to 900kbaud/second, which is a new UART. >>> >>> I've seen a PC Card that costs $199-$319 depending on who you are, >>> and it does everything with a UART on top (the software driver for >>> BSDI will be $95. >> >>I'm having trouble with receive overruns with the 115.2 Kb/s news >>feed from the new Pagesat HS-2000. I'm using a Lava ISA 16C550- >>based com port on a 486DX4-100, 64 MB RAM, BSDI V2.1 news server. >>I talked to 'Mike' at Pagesat who recommended a DOS-based PC as >>a dedicated input spooler which would then feed the BSDI news >>server. >> This seems like an extravagant 'kludge'. I checked >>around a found a couple of external serial buffer boxes, but >>they wouldn't work faster than 38.4 Kb/s. CyberResearch has >>a hi-speed buffered serial card, but it's designed for output >>spooling. >> I think what I need is a hi-speed buffered input serial >>card that's compatible with the Pagesat psfrx program. I think >>16 or 32 bytes of FIFO is not nearly enough since the Pagesat >>data receiver does no flow control. Ideas, suggestions or product >>source would be welcome. >> >>Bernard Klatt Owner Fairview Tech Ctr Ltd. www.ftcnet.com Have you tried looking at buffered boards? There are a lot for PC boards. And some are cheap and work very well. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 13:15:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA06588 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06578; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA02945; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:14:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199607052014.QAA02945@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Henry Spencer cc: Gary Palmer , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:30:28 EDT. Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:14:52 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you write: >> I thought the question was on what to expect from UARTS for high speed >> applications. I think Henry suggested using a local ethernet to connect to >> a ISP ethernet <-> ethernet<->ethernet WAN ISDN connection or high >> speed modem <-> home ethernet. > >Just to clarify... My suggestion is that you do not want a high-speed >application which looks like a UART to the software, at all, ever. You >want high-speed applications to come in via Ethernet, so your software >is dealing with a packet at a time rather than a character at a time. >It's worth the overhead of having to set up a 0.5m-long Ethernet, which >is fairly trivial nowadays. > >Yes, there are people who build high-speed interfaces that look like >UARTs, and they can be cheaper than the ones that sit on the other side >of an Ethernet. You get what you pay for. > > Henry Spencer > henry@zoo.toronto.edu You haven't said anything substitive. If it works perfectly, why not use a USR Sportster ISDN 128 Terminal Adapter and Unix driver for $400 when the ethernet connection (from home to other side) costs $1, 000 or so. You that's not counting the ethernet stuff. I just don't see paying so much money for no proven benefit. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 13:25:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA07377 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA07372 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 13:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA02980; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:24:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199607052024.QAA02980@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Henry Spencer cc: hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:38:32 EDT. Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:24:49 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you write: >> Also, why add an ethernet to the home system, when really you usually just >> want a point to point connection from your house to the ISP, a route from >> your home computer to the ISP and a route from the ISP to any default request, >> and don't have any need for a local LAN? > >Why *not* add an Ethernet to the home system? It's a cheap and simple way >to get an efficient high-speed connection into your machine. The key is >to stop thinking of Ethernet as an expensive LAN, and start thinking of it >as a fast alternative to RS232. A 10BaseT Ethernet card and a crossover >cable is a cheap and easy way to connect *even* *just* *one* high-speed >device to your PC. Would you add a serial port for such a purpose? If >not, then why not add an Ethernet port instead? It's a lot better and not >much more expensive. > > Henry Spencer > henry@zoo.toronto.edu Well, for instance, the ethernet <-> ethernet connections cost about $1000 vs. $400 or so for the ISA card. Please tell me a solution that will go up to 512 Kbaud/sec with standard BSDI and compression for $400. Ascend, Cisco, etc cards cost $1000+ by themselves, from what I've seen. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 14:09:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11442 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11433; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA03128; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 17:08:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199607052108.RAA03128@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Henry Spencer cc: Gary Palmer , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 14:30:28 EDT. Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 17:08:18 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you write: >> I thought the question was on what to expect from UARTS for high speed >> applications. I think Henry suggested using a local ethernet to connect to >> a ISP ethernet <-> ethernet<->ethernet WAN ISDN connection or high >> speed modem <-> home ethernet. > >Just to clarify... My suggestion is that you do not want a high-speed >application which looks like a UART to the software, at all, ever. You >want high-speed applications to come in via Ethernet, so your software >is dealing with a packet at a time rather than a character at a time. >It's worth the overhead of having to set up a 0.5m-long Ethernet, which >is fairly trivial nowadays. > >Yes, there are people who build high-speed interfaces that look like >UARTs, and they can be cheaper than the ones that sit on the other side >of an Ethernet. You get what you pay for. > > Henry Spencer > henry@zoo.toronto.edu Once again, the problem is the cost and the end result. There's no reason that one needs to handle a packet at a time. And a card like the Sportster ISDN 128 K terminal server does not load the computer much. I believe it handles a lot of PPP stuff internally, but I'm not sure. But regardless, I haven't heard of why that solution wouldn't work well. What do you get in the $1000+ system you propose that you don't get in the solution I proposed? I don't see it. Maybe if you had a complicated net at home the router might help, but for normal cases calling from home with one or two computers I don't see the loss. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 14:14:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11871 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11860; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA03152; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 17:13:29 -0400 Message-Id: <199607052113.RAA03152@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: bbecker@flubber.futurecomm.com cc: Gary Palmer , Henry Spencer , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 30 Jun 1996 02:53:22 EDT. Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 17:13:26 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you write: >On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Gary Palmer wrote: > >> > Why connect at high speeds with a UART: money. Most ethernet solutions >> > cost well over $1000 not counting the ethernet hardware which may not be at --------------------------------------------- >> > home. (card, tranceiver or hub, cables, etc). I've seen a PC Card that >> > costs $199-$319 depending on who you are, and it does everything with a UART >> > on top (the software driver for BSDI will be $95. So, how does $400 sound to >> >> I'm sorry? I cabled and equipped a LAN at home for less than $1000, >> for 3 machines (2 PC's, and one `other') (admittedly 10b2, not 10bT >> which is what I would go for today). > >Figuring the price of cheap ethernet cards to be under $40US, you should >be able (today) to connect 3 machines for something like $200US including >the cost of wire and rj-45 connecters. For a network that small, you can >get away with not having a hub. > >You get away with no hub by swapping the RX and TX pairs on the cables >connecting one box to another. Of course one of the boxes has to have two >cards, and it also has to be able to route packets between the other two >boxes. (Since this is 'bsdi-users', i'm presuming that a BSDI box would >be filling that role). > >But the price of hubs has dropped dramatically. An Accton 8-port 10bt hub >is something like $125 if i'm not mistaken. A little black thing about >the size of the lizard book. If you prefer white, you can get the same >hub from 3Com, > >Bill How much is the ethernet <-> ethernet connection. The ones I've seen are around $1000, not considering other equipment. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 14:18:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12065 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA12060 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA03102; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:59:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199607052059.QAA03102@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Michael Hancock cc: Michael Smith , stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 30 Jun 1996 08:45:08 +0900. Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 16:59:47 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message you write: >On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Michael Smith wrote: > >> This is just stupid. Look at the huge installed base of 14k and 28k >> modems, and the phenomenal cost of ISDN services in most of the world. > >Japan is one of the places where it's relatively cheap. Of course the >cost of using a regular telephone line is outrageous compared to what >we are used to in the US. > >mike Things will change. Remember how expensive V.34 or V.fast was at first, or CD's or calculators, or digital watches, or P6 processors? When they were announced, the 200 Mhz ones were $1325 in Quant. 1000. I've recently seen the same thing for about $750, just about 9 months later. Yes, today ISDN is expensive. But I heard that in some parts of California ISDN costs the same as regular analog phones. This will spread. Things are not static, and just as I'm sure the designers of UARTs that couldn't go faster than 19200 baud reliably even after problems with earlier ones and the relatively low cost of much faster ones, felt that they were doing the best, but for analog modems, most good connections these days are at 115, 200 baud. So while ISDN isn't mainstream today that doesn't mean it won't be soon. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 15:56:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA17949 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA17944 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from downlink.eng.umd.edu (downlink.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.182]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01711; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chuckr@localhost) by downlink.eng.umd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA14156; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:52:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@downlink.eng.umd.edu To: "Jacob M. Parnas" cc: Michael Hancock , Michael Smith , stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-Reply-To: <199607052059.QAA03102@jparnas.cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Jacob M. Parnas wrote: > Things will change. Remember how expensive V.34 or V.fast was at first, > or CD's or calculators, or digital watches, or P6 processors? When they > were announced, the 200 Mhz ones were $1325 in Quant. 1000. I've recently > seen the same thing for about $750, just about 9 months later. > > Yes, today ISDN is expensive. But I heard that in some parts of California > ISDN costs the same as regular analog phones. This will spread. Things are > not static, and just as I'm sure the designers of UARTs that couldn't go > faster than 19200 baud reliably even after problems with earlier ones and the > relatively low cost of much faster ones, felt that they were doing the best, > but for analog modems, most good connections these days are at 115, 200 baud. > > So while ISDN isn't mainstream today that doesn't mean it won't be soon. You're forgetting that while the price of a P6-200 is determined by technology and competition, the price of telephone service is determined by the PUC and local political goals. Your prediction is not on completely firm ground. It might actually happen, but I sure wouldn't bet on it. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and n3lxx, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 2.2 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 18:55:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA26903 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.com (pegasus.com [140.174.243.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA26890 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pegasus.com (8.6.8/PEGASUS-2.2) id PAA28087; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:54:59 -1001 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 15:54:59 -1001 From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) Message-Id: <199607060155.PAA28087@pegasus.com> In-Reply-To: Chuck Robey "Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server" (Jul 5, 6:52pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server [ISDN] } > Yes, today ISDN is expensive. But I heard that in some parts of California } > ISDN costs the same as regular analog phones. This will spread. Things are } > not static, and just as I'm sure the designers of UARTs that couldn't go } > faster than 19200 baud reliably even after problems with earlier ones and the } > relatively low cost of much faster ones, felt that they were doing the best, } > but for analog modems, most good connections these days are at 115, 200 baud. } > } > So while ISDN isn't mainstream today that doesn't mean it won't be soon. } } You're forgetting that while the price of a P6-200 is determined by } technology and competition, the price of telephone service is determined } by the PUC and local political goals. Your prediction is not on } completely firm ground. It might actually happen, but I sure wouldn't } bet on it. Cable has a good chance of blowing ISDN away. Much faster and cheaper. And it will be available in many places this year. More, next. Keep your eye on the cable companies. Richard From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 19:23:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00171 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00161 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: MichaelGoe@aol.com Received: by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA29473; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:23:51 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:23:51 -0400 Message-ID: <960705222348_570731723@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: alex@fa.tdktca.com cc: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Help with PAS16 Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-07-05 09:30:43 EDT, you write: << > controller snd0 > device pas0 at isa? port 0x388 irq 10 confilicts drq 6 vector pasintr ^^^^^^^^^^ > >> This is actual per the manual. I added the conflicts becuase of the CD-rom Michael G. From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 19:25:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA00381 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00369 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:25:43 -0700 (PDT) From: MichaelGoe@aol.com Received: by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA21450; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:26:06 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:26:06 -0400 Message-ID: <960705222337_570731594@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: alex@fa.tdktca.com cc: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Help with PAS16 Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-07-05 09:30:43 EDT, you write: << > device sb0 at isa? prot 0x220 irq 5 conflicts drq 1 vectro sbintr ^^^^^^ This one is actual ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > devise opl0 at isa? port 0x388 conflicts ^^^^^^ This one is a typo Was this a direct cut & paste, or a typo when you retyped it? Alex >> From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 21:26:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA10435 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 21:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA10428 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 21:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id AAA04659; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 00:23:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199607060423.AAA04659@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: Chuck Robey cc: Michael Hancock , Michael Smith , stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 05 Jul 1996 18:52:49 EDT. Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 00:23:24 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >You're forgetting that while the price of a P6-200 is determined by >technology and competition, the price of telephone service is determined >by the PUC and local political goals. Your prediction is not on >completely firm ground. It might actually happen, but I sure wouldn't >bet on it. Actually, (NYNEX)our local phone company is being opened to competition and long distance has been for a long time. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 21:30:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA10729 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 21:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA10724 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 21:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id AAA04705; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 00:29:23 -0400 Message-Id: <199607060429.AAA04705@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) cc: hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 05 Jul 1996 15:54:59 -1001. <199607060155.PAA28087@pegasus.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 00:29:20 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199607060155.PAA28087@pegasus.com>you write: >Cable has a good chance of blowing ISDN away. Much faster and cheaper. And >it will be available in many places this year. More, next. > >Keep your eye on the cable companies. > > >Richard Cable is a pain. It works only one way. If you want to send a large file you still have to go slow. And, you still need to be a member of a ISP as you can't write to cable, from what I've read. Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Fri Jul 5 23:55:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA23003 for hardware-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 23:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.com (pegasus.com [140.174.243.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA22986 for ; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 23:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pegasus.com (8.6.8/PEGASUS-2.2) id UAA29144; Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:53:31 -1000 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:53:31 -1000 From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) Message-Id: <199607060653.UAA29144@pegasus.com> In-Reply-To: "Jacob M. Parnas" "" (Jul 6, 12:29am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: "Jacob M. Parnas" Cc: hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk } >Cable has a good chance of blowing ISDN away. Much faster and cheaper. And } >it will be available in many places this year. More, next. } > } >Keep your eye on the cable companies. } > } > } >Richard } } Cable is a pain. It works only one way. If you want to send a large file } you still have to go slow. And, you still need to be a member of a ISP } as you can't write to cable, from what I've read. Slow compared to what? There are a few different configurations. Eight megabits in, three megabits out is one. Still way faster than other modes, even on the slower half. As far as I know, the slowest slow in cable modems is still fast. Our cable company here in Honolulu is apparently going to use modems that provide 6Mb in both directions. The promise is $50/month. The cable modem connects to your ethernet. The cable company is becoming an ISP, in a big way. Imagine how that kind of throughput could change the landscape. Richard From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 03:22:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16137 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 03:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA16131 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 03:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA23745; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 19:42:43 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199607061012.TAA23745@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: muliport boards - building a PPP dialup server To: jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net (Jacob M. Parnas) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 19:42:42 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, Kevin_Swanson@blacksmith.com, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com In-Reply-To: <199607051940.PAA02847@jparnas.cybercom.net> from "Jacob M. Parnas" at Jul 5, 96 03:40:54 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jacob M. Parnas stands accused of saying: > > > >Quatech do a card called the DS-100 with a pair of PC16550D's and an 18MHz > >clock and a jumperable /1 /2 /5 /10 divider that will allow your to > >run your 16550 ports significantly faster. > > > >Unfortunately, they tried to implement the card properly, and as such > >we have had serious problems with the cards in fast (>486/33) machines. > > It shouldn't be a hard thing. Simply build a fifo which has say a 1 > Megabit of memory on it (pretty cheap these days). It sends an > interrupt if it goes from full to not full or another if it reaches > half full. If known by the kernel not to be empty, empty it 25 > times/second (if it was full at 10 MB/sec, it would be emptied in > 1/80th of a second.) That's fast, cheap, and will go very fast. > I'm not even hardware oriented, but can see that it wouldn't be hard > or difficult to build or program, and would support very fast I/O. Out of the mouths of babes - Jacob, it's _blindingly_obvious_ that you don't know spit about hardware. Attempting to discuss this with you would be like trying to talk existentialism with a donkey. Or do you honestly believe that you, with your self-avowed lack of hardware orientation, can come up with something that hasn't been done before? Are you _really_ that concieted? > Back to the personal insults. This is where I step off. I have better > things to do than act like elementary school kids trading insults. What's > next? "My daddy can beat up your daddy". Jacob; you butt in on a discussion brandishing your swollen ignorance and your myopic perspecive in everyone's face, and then burst into tears when this is pointed out to you. There is nothing 'mature' in this attitude, so I can't see what you're complaining about. > Jacob M. Parnas -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 03:30:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16467 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 03:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA16439 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 03:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA23787; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 19:52:49 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199607061022.TAA23787@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: your mail To: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 19:52:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: jparnas@jparnas.cybercom.net, hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com In-Reply-To: <199607060653.UAA29144@pegasus.com> from "Richard Foulk" at Jul 5, 96 08:53:31 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard Foulk stands accused of saying: > > Our cable company here in Honolulu is apparently going to use modems that > provide 6Mb in both directions. The promise is $50/month. The cable > modem connects to your ethernet. The cable company is becoming an ISP, > in a big way. Yeah, right. And what fraction of their available bandwidth will you get? Who cares how fast your pipe to _them_ is, what's theirs to the rest of the world? And how many people do you have to share it with? > Richard -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 07:59:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA18002 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 07:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zoo.toronto.edu (zoo.toronto.edu [128.100.72.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA17997 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 07:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 10:58:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer Subject: cable vs. ISDN To: "Jacob M. Parnas" cc: Richard Foulk , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com In-Reply-To: <199607060429.AAA04705@jparnas.cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Cable has a good chance of blowing ISDN away. Much faster and cheaper. And > >it will be available in many places this year. More, next. > > Cable is a pain. It works only one way. If you want to send a large file > you still have to go slow. And, you still need to be a member of a ISP > as you can't write to cable, from what I've read. Depends on how good your local cable system is. The cable-data system that Rogers Cable is introducing in the Toronto area is two-way (with symmetrical bandwidth, amazingly enough, or at least that's the way it was in the prototype system). Incidentally, harking back to the original theme of this discussion :-), the hardware used for the Rogers prototype talked to the computers by Ethernet. Henry Spencer henry@zoo.toronto.edu From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 08:27:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA19196 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 08:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deputy.pavilion.co.uk (deputy.pavilion.co.uk [194.242.128.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA19189 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 08:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup2-62.pavilion.co.uk (dialup2-62.pavilion.co.uk [194.242.131.190]) by deputy.pavilion.co.uk (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id QAA08274; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 16:26:44 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199607061526.QAA08274@deputy.pavilion.co.uk> X-Sender: aledm@mailhost.pavilion.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 16:27:05 +0100 To: freebsd-hardware@freefall.freebsd.org, admin@ftcnet.com, mrm@marmot.mole.org From: Aled Morris Subject: USB (was Re: Hi-speed serial input for Pagesat HS-2000?) Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk All this talk of high speed serial and no one has mentioned USB? It's built in to the new Intel PCI chipsets, which you can already buy in motherboards. A bit expensive today (double Triton price?), but they will be entry-level in no time. I'm sure with Intel's blessing the modem/TA people will be supporting it. Aled -- telephone +44 973 207987 O- From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 08:55:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20783 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 08:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA20778 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 08:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA18849; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 11:54:57 -0400 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 11:54:57 -0400 From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199607061554.LAA18849@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: henry@zoo.toronto.edu, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hardware References: <4rm15o$f5k@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.hardware you write: >> >Cable has a good chance of blowing ISDN away. Much faster and cheaper. And >> >it will be available in many places this year. More, next. >> >> Cable is a pain. It works only one way. If you want to send a large file >> you still have to go slow. And, you still need to be a member of a ISP >> as you can't write to cable, from what I've read. >Depends on how good your local cable system is. The cable-data system >that Rogers Cable is introducing in the Toronto area is two-way (with >symmetrical bandwidth, amazingly enough, or at least that's the way it was >in the prototype system). >Incidentally, harking back to the original theme of this discussion :-), >the hardware used for the Rogers prototype talked to the computers by >Ethernet. I've been using Cable networking for almost a year now here in East Lansing, MI (TCI Cable), and its symmetrical 10Mbps, usually I get an effective throughput rate of about 200KBytes/sec both ways. You can keep your 11K/sec ISDN :) -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 09:11:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21637 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 09:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA21632 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 09:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmith@localhost by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) id BAA24296; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:34:38 +0930 From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199607061604.BAA24296@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: USB (was Re: Hi-speed serial input for Pagesat HS-2000?) To: aledm@routers.co.uk (Aled Morris) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 01:34:38 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hardware@freefall.freebsd.org, admin@ftcnet.com, mrm@marmot.mole.org In-Reply-To: <199607061526.QAA08274@deputy.pavilion.co.uk> from "Aled Morris" at Jul 6, 96 04:27:05 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Aled Morris stands accused of saying: > > All this talk of high speed serial and no one has mentioned USB? > It hasn't been hyped yet, so the clueless nothings haven't heard about it, and those of us that have the spec have probably realised that nobody is going to be rushing to produce hardware to talk to it in the same price bracket as either async modem/TA's, or in the first instance Ethernet units. The code and hardware to talk USB aren't significantly simpler or cheaper than the same components for Ethernet, and everything can talk ethernet, wheras only a very small number of Intel-based PC's talk USB. I see no competition in the short to medium timeframe. If you haven't retrieved and read _carefully_ the USB spec, I'd suggest doing so before swallowing the dribble about it being the be-all and end-all of desktop interfaces. The lack of small silicon for target applications at this stage is very worrying too; I'd much prefer to go with one of (say) Crystal's new single-chip Ethernet solutions. > Aled -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@atrad.adelaide.edu.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control (ph/fax) +61-8-267-3039 [[ ]] Collector of old Unix hardware. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 12:42:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA01297 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 12:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adams.berk.net (root@adams.berk.net [205.230.140.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01292 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 12:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adams.bcn.net (timmy@draco.berk.net [205.230.140.190]) by adams.berk.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA24782; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 15:42:01 -0400 Message-ID: <31DEC1C7.8BC@bcn.net> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 15:43:03 -0400 From: Tim Alibozek Reply-To: timmy@bcn.net Organization: Berkshire County Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henry Spencer CC: Richard Foulk , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > >Cable has a good chance of blowing ISDN away. Much faster and cheaper. And > > >it will be available in many places this year. More, next. > > > > Cable is a pain. It works only one way. If you want to send a large file > > you still have to go slow. And, you still need to be a member of a ISP > > as you can't write to cable, from what I've read. > > Depends on how good your local cable system is. The cable-data system > that Rogers Cable is introducing in the Toronto area is two-way (with > symmetrical bandwidth, amazingly enough, or at least that's the way it was > in the prototype system). > > Incidentally, harking back to the original theme of this discussion :-), > the hardware used for the Rogers prototype talked to the computers by > Ethernet. > > Henry Spencer > henry@zoo.toronto.edu I just got back from Montreal and from what I understand...the modern part of Montreal have bi-directional 256k/256k cable modems and the not so modern parts of Montreal have bi-directional 256k/72k cable modems. -- Tim Alibozek | The Berkshire County Network System Administrator | A full service Internet Service Provider EMail: timmy@bcn.net | Serving Berkshire County and beyond From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 15:53:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09378 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 15:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jparnas.cybercom.net (jparnas.cybercom.net [206.28.135.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09373 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 15:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.cybercom.net (localhost.cybercom.net [127.0.0.1]) by jparnas.cybercom.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA07299; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 18:52:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199607062252.SAA07299@jparnas.cybercom.net> X-Authentication-Warning: jparnas.cybercom.net: Host localhost.cybercom.net didn't use HELO protocol To: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) cc: hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com X-External-Networks: yes In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 05 Jul 1996 20:53:31 -1000. <199607060653.UAA29144@pegasus.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 18:52:37 -0400 From: "Jacob M. Parnas" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199607060653.UAA29144@pegasus.com>you write: >} >Cable has a good chance of blowing ISDN away. Much faster and cheaper. And >} >it will be available in many places this year. More, next. >} > >} >Keep your eye on the cable companies. >} > >} > >} >Richard >} >} Cable is a pain. It works only one way. If you want to send a large file >} you still have to go slow. And, you still need to be a member of a ISP >} as you can't write to cable, from what I've read. > >Slow compared to what? Well, what were we comparing it to? ISDN. >There are a few different configurations. Eight megabits in, three >megabits out is one. Still way faster than other modes, even on the >slower half. As far as I know, the slowest slow in cable modems is >still fast. But I think if you research carefully its receive only. Send must be done through some other channel like a V.34+ modem. >Our cable company here in Honolulu is apparently going to use modems that >provide 6Mb in both directions. The promise is $50/month. The cable >modem connects to your ethernet. The cable company is becoming an ISP, >in a big way. Is it bidirectional (ie can you send) or does that have to go through some other channel? >Imagine how that kind of throughput could change the landscape. Well, that's in theory. If it was widely marketed at that price and bidirectional, that 3-8 mbits/second, Usually without putting a whole new set of cables underground (or above), its bandwidth would be split by many users and the for 1000 users, on average, that's the same as 3-8 Kbits per second. And if you have to move, you may be out of luck. >Richard > Jacob From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 17:40:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13833 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 17:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zoo.toronto.edu (zoo.toronto.edu [128.100.72.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA13828 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 17:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 20:10:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer Subject: Re: your mail To: "Jacob M. Parnas" cc: Richard Foulk , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com In-Reply-To: <199607062252.SAA07299@jparnas.cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Our cable company here in Honolulu is apparently going to use modems that > >provide 6Mb in both directions. The promise is $50/month. The cable > >modem connects to your ethernet. The cable company is becoming an ISP, > >in a big way. > > Is it bidirectional (ie can you send) or does that have to go through some > other channel? That's what people are trying to tell you: CABLE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ONE-WAY. When he says "both directions", he really does mean both, as in bidirectional. Some places with old cable systems are stuck with unidirectional transmission, and that means going the other way by phone modem, which is marginally satisfactory at best. Modern cable systems can do better. > ...that 3-8 mbits/second, Usually without putting a whole new > set of cables underground (or above), its bandwidth would be split by many > users and the for 1000 users, on average, that's the same as 3-8 Kbits per > second... The bandwidth is indeed split, but the question of "by how many users" does not have a simple answer -- it depends on what the cable company has done. Note that the splitting is *not*, in general, over the entire metropolitan area -- the cable company can and does subdivide. The folks in the Rogers Toronto-area experiment say that the net effective data rate did vary depending on load, but it was always a lot faster than phone modems. > And if you have to move, you may be out of luck. ISDN has the same problem. Henry Spencer henry@zoo.toronto.edu From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 19:16:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA17907 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 19:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (root@gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA17885 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 19:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by gallup.cia-g.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA21160; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 20:15:25 -0600 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 20:15:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Joel Yancey To: Henry Spencer cc: "Jacob M. Parnas" , Richard Foulk , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk All this talk about Cable modems. i Really dont think there such a great idea. Think about this: (btw: this comment is not to spark an arguement, but point out why i dilike the idea) well, First Off,if cable modems were around, ISP's wouldnt be, because the Cable company has taken over the business. plus, they CLAIM everyone will have 10mbps per house hold, well, considering that theres not thaty much bandwidth to waste for a bunch of web browsing crowd, and they say that there will only be 128k recieve, but 10mbps send. now thats strange. *I* myself, dont like that opinion, because the cable company doesnt really know what a computer system is all about, and i dont like the fact that then they would have a monopoly. See YA, Joel Yancey On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Henry Spencer wrote: > > >Cable has a good chance of blowing ISDN away. Much faster and cheaper. And > > >it will be available in many places this year. More, next. > > > > Cable is a pain. It works only one way. If you want to send a large file > > you still have to go slow. And, you still need to be a member of a ISP > > as you can't write to cable, from what I've read. > > Depends on how good your local cable system is. The cable-data system > that Rogers Cable is introducing in the Toronto area is two-way (with > symmetrical bandwidth, amazingly enough, or at least that's the way it was > in the prototype system). > > Incidentally, harking back to the original theme of this discussion :-), > the hardware used for the Rogers prototype talked to the computers by > Ethernet. > > Henry Spencer > henry@zoo.toronto.edu > From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 20:31:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA21337 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 20:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from circle.net (demeter.circle.net [207.79.160.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA21331 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 20:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from troy@localhost) by circle.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA16244; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:31:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:31:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Troy Arie Cobb To: hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk All questions/issues of bandwidth aside, the real issue as I see it w/ cable networking is that it is BROADCAST ethernet. That is, every one in your cable-division (i.e. all of those houses connected to the same switch as you are) will get the same packets. Drop a wee little packet sniffer on your own line and BOOM, you can find out what the Jones' down the street are surfing to, emailing to, etc. *shudder* Of course, the natural response would be: What about encryption? Know of any machine that can handle destination-based encryption on the fly, fast enough to support 10MB/s? These are, I think, the real issues. Sure, bidirectional cable is provably possible. But the security of the technology is abominable. And of course, the cable folks will probably screw it all up. So, take heart ISPs! Just be ready to move quickly, who knows when your local cable company might want to buy their access thru you? Or consulting, too... :) Just my $.02 - troy Troy Arie Cobb troy@circle.net ------------------------------------------------------ | Circle Net, Inc. | global internet access | | http://www.circle.net | for western north carolina | | info@circle.net | and beyond... | | 704-254-9500 | | ------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 20:50:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22266 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 20:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zoo.toronto.edu (zoo.toronto.edu [128.100.72.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA22231 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 20:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:49:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Henry Spencer Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN To: Joel Yancey cc: "Jacob M. Parnas" , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > well, First Off,if cable modems were around, ISP's wouldnt be, because > the Cable company has taken over the business... Most of the small ISPs are not long for this world anyway, because they're about to get competition from the local phone companies. The people who own the existing wires have a powerful natural advantage, and there's just no getting around that. > plus, they CLAIM everyone > will have 10mbps per house hold, well, considering that theres not thaty > much bandwidth to waste for a bunch of web browsing crowd, and they say > that there will only be 128k recieve, but 10mbps send. now thats strange. Not really. For one thing, the 128k/10M split is just an oddity of *your* local cable system -- the better-equipped ones are talking about symmetrical bandwidth. For another, the cable company has *lots* of bandwidth available in their wiring; it's just a matter of the electronics on each end. Of course, in the end, it will boil down to you paying higher fees if you want higher bandwidth. > *I* myself, dont like that opinion, because the cable company doesnt > really know what a computer system is all about, and i dont like the fact > that then they would have a monopoly. What do you think of phone companies? It may come down to a choice of two evils. As I said above: they own the wires, so there's not a lot of room to maneuver. If you don't like monopolies, start lobbying now for competitive cable and phone services. Henry Spencer henry@zoo.toronto.edu From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 21:45:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA25045 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 21:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA25036 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 21:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA22350; Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:45:00 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 00:45:00 -0400 From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199607070445.AAA22350@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: troy@circle.net, freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hardware References: <4rne79$v0a@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.hardware you write: >Know of any machine that can handle destination-based encryption on >the fly, fast enough to support 10MB/s? >These are, I think, the real issues. Sure, bidirectional cable >is provably possible. But the security of the technology is >abominable. And of course, the cable folks will probably screw it >all up. So, take heart ISPs! Just be ready to move quickly, who knows >when your local cable company might want to buy their access thru you? >Or consulting, too... :) Think people! I have one of these things, its a filtering *bridge* I dont get packets im not sposed to get, and thats how it works. Now if I can spoof the hardware and take it over then yes, I can snoop. Okay on to encryption, ever hear of SSH?! Cripes, ssh is virtually transparent and fast as hell! -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 22:20:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA26892 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA26820 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA01570; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607070518.WAA01570@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Joel Yancey cc: Henry Spencer , "Jacob M. Parnas" , Richard Foulk , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 06 Jul 96 20:15:24 -0600. Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 22:18:58 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >plus, they CLAIM everyone >will have 10mbps per house hold, well, considering that theres not thaty >much bandwidth to waste for a bunch of web browsing crowd, and they say >that there will only be 128k recieve, but 10mbps send. now thats strange. Nobody claimed "everyone" would get 10Mb/s per household. I've heard many different rates, depending on where you live, and what kind of infrastructure is in place. 1) Regardless, almost every figure I have heard quoted, except for the very lowest, are still better than modems. Many of them are better than ISDN, and *much* better than modems. Who cares if it's 10Mb/s or 1Mb/s? It's still *way* faster than anything else I can connect with. 2) Without exception, every figure I have heard quoted has the *send* side the same or slower than receive. None of them have the receive side slow and send fast. What would be the point. Besides, it just doesn't make sense. 3) 128Kb/s is still the fastest ISDN will (currently) go, and several times faster than the fastest modem. Where's the problem? I'd take 128Kb/s in a heartbeat if I could get it at the same price as my current modem connection. >well, First Off,if cable modems were around, ISP's wouldnt be, because >the Cable company has taken over the business. [...] >*I* myself, dont like that opinion, because the cable company doesnt >really know what a computer system is all about, and i dont like the fact >that then they would have a monopoly. Who says the ISPs won't still be around? That's an awful speculative jump of logic. Someone still has to sell the *services*, and who says the cable company will even be interested. Who's going to provide USENET news, Web service, login shells? I doubt my cable company will be interested in all that. Which means my cable company can provide a pipe to the 'net, and let someone else sell me the rest. Sounds like a really good market for ISPs. Also, who says the phone companies know anything more than the cable companies. They've had their thumbs up their asses for so long, trying to figure out how to sell us trailing-edge digital technology without hurting their business profits, that they may end up missing this boat entirely. Personally, I don't care. Whoever gets to my house first with a digital tap I can afford, with decent performance, will get my business. If it's the cable company, fine. Phone company? Well, I don't have any love for them, but I'll take what they offer *if* they manage to get here first. I'd say the odds are against them, however. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 22:37:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA28062 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (root@gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA28055 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by gallup.cia-g.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA22963; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:37:32 -0600 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:37:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Joel Yancey To: Henry Spencer cc: "Jacob M. Parnas" , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Henry Spencer wrote: > > well, First Off,if cable modems were around, ISP's wouldnt be, because > > the Cable company has taken over the business... > > Most of the small ISPs are not long for this world anyway, because they're > about to get competition from the local phone companies. The people who > own the existing wires have a powerful natural advantage, and there's just > no getting around that. Well, doesnt that take some fun out of running unix, if you cant be a sysadmin on the professional level with out being hired out? i would think most of the people around this mailing list would be against such a thing. > > > plus, they CLAIM everyone > > will have 10mbps per house hold, well, considering that theres not thaty > > much bandwidth to waste for a bunch of web browsing crowd, and they say > > that there will only be 128k recieve, but 10mbps send. now thats strange. > > Not really. For one thing, the 128k/10M split is just an oddity of *your* > local cable system -- the better-equipped ones are talking about symmetrical > bandwidth. For another, the cable company has *lots* of bandwidth available > in their wiring; it's just a matter of the electronics on each end. Of > course, in the end, it will boil down to you paying higher fees if you want > higher bandwidth. Well, do you have proof otherwise? i heard this from a national bases, in fact, from what *I* hear, they really dont exsist in the working form as of yet. > > > *I* myself, dont like that opinion, because the cable company doesnt > > really know what a computer system is all about, and i dont like the fact > > that then they would have a monopoly. > > What do you think of phone companies? It may come down to a choice of two > evils. As I said above: they own the wires, so there's not a lot of > room to maneuver. If you don't like monopolies, start lobbying now for > competitive cable and phone services. no, i dont like the phone companies, but i sure can provide a service using them, but with a cable company how am i supposed to get someone to call me, when there already connected? and as far as beating a monopoly, unfortunatly, i dont think ANYONE has enough money to lay there own cable all of a city, or a state. now if YOU have any suggestions on making this amount of money so i can do this, im listening. > Henry Spencer > henry@zoo.toronto.edu Thank you, have a nice day Joel Yancey Dead.deadend.com From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 22:40:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA28687 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@mindbender.headcandy.com [199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA28665 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA01617; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607070539.WAA01617@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Henry Spencer cc: Joel Yancey , "Jacob M. Parnas" , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 06 Jul 96 23:49:35 -0400. Date: Sat, 06 Jul 1996 22:39:38 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> *I* myself, dont like that opinion, because the cable company doesnt >> really know what a computer system is all about, and i dont like the fact >> that then they would have a monopoly. >What do you think of phone companies? It may come down to a choice of two >evils. As I said above: they own the wires, so there's not a lot of >room to maneuver. If you don't like monopolies, start lobbying now for >competitive cable and phone services. Uh, the economics of that are rather unworkable. These are "controlled monopolies". The monopolies are provided to the companies for service in an area, and in return the companies give up pricing control to regulatory agencies. This is comonly done where public access is limited in some way (such as redundant infrastructure wiring costs), and granting a controlled monopoly is actually in the public interest. It's only the largest service areas that have *any* competition, and then it's only two or three companies. The infrastructure costs are way too high to make a true free market companies work (forget me if I forget my economics terminology). If six different companies were to string redundant wiring across your city, they'd likely all go out of business from excessive infrastructure costs, with too little return on investment. One of the few ways this could be made to work would be if the city owned the wiring, and leased access to competing phone and cable companies, who only had to worry about providing the actual dial tone and picture. But then you'd be paying the city for all the infrastructure, and the the phone and cable company a second time for your service. This is why, if you get down to the bottom of it, in many competing areas, some companies are actually leasing wire from the company they're competing against. It simply isn't possible to put in their own redundant wiring and recoup the costs. If there are any well-studied economists in our midst, they can probably explain this way better than I can. To stray waaay off the subject... ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hardware Sat Jul 6 22:47:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-hardware Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA29898 for hardware-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (root@gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA29883 for ; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 22:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by gallup.cia-g.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA23052; Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:47:06 -0600 Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:47:05 -0600 (MDT) From: Joel Yancey To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: Henry Spencer , "Jacob M. Parnas" , Richard Foulk , hardware@freebsd.org, bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Re: cable vs. ISDN In-Reply-To: <199607070518.WAA01570@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hardware@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > >plus, they CLAIM everyone > >will have 10mbps per house hold, well, considering that theres not thaty > >much bandwidth to waste for a bunch of web browsing crowd, and they say > >that there will only be 128k recieve, but 10mbps send. now thats strange. > > Nobody claimed "everyone" would get 10Mb/s per household. I've heard > many different rates, depending on where you live, and what kind of > infrastructure is in place. > > 1) Regardless, almost every figure I have heard quoted, except for the > very lowest, are still better than modems. Many of them are better > than ISDN, and *much* better than modems. Who cares if it's 10Mb/s or > 1Mb/s? It's still *way* faster than anything else I can connect with. > > 2) Without exception, every figure I have heard quoted has the *send* > side the same or slower than receive. None of them have the receive > side slow and send fast. What would be the point. Besides, it just > doesn't make sense. > > 3) 128Kb/s is still the fastest ISDN will (currently) go, and several > times faster than the fastest modem. Where's the problem? I'd take > 128Kb/s in a heartbeat if I could get it at the same price as my > current modem connection. ok, i would like that too, but i dont like that idea of not running an ISP. > > >well, First Off,if cable modems were around, ISP's wouldnt be, because > >the Cable company has taken over the business. > [...] > >*I* myself, dont like that opinion, because the cable company doesnt > >really know what a computer system is all about, and i dont like the fact > >that then they would have a monopoly. > > Who says the ISPs won't still be around? That's an awful speculative > jump of logic. > > Someone still has to sell the *services*, and who says the cable > company will even be interested. Who's going to provide USENET news, > Web service, login shells? I doubt my cable company will be > interested in all that. Which means my cable company can provide a > pipe to the 'net, and let someone else sell me the rest. Sounds like > a really good market for ISPs. where do you think the market is? not in providing the lines, but providing the service. plus, even if it was only true that they would have to come to an ISP for the connection, thers not enough bandwidth. then 10Mbps, or even 1 Mbps would drag a T3 down being access by only a couple hundred people. so wheres the logic in going the an ISP? and ther will always be AT LEAST 200 people in this god's green earth that will be using, or your ISP really sucks. > Also, who says the phone companies know anything more than the cable > companies. They've had their thumbs up their asses for so long, > trying to figure out how to sell us trailing-edge digital technology > without hurting their business profits, that they may end up missing > this boat entirely. > > Personally, I don't care. Whoever gets to my house first with a > digital tap I can afford, with decent performance, will get my > business. If it's the cable company, fine. Phone company? Well, I > don't have any love for them, but I'll take what they offer *if* they > manage to get here first. I'd say the odds are against them, however. Obvisouly, your not an ISP. so why would you care. and i dont like the idea of running a Unix system, and having all this knowledge of runng, maintaing, programming for, and the like to goto waste because of a TV Cable company. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com > --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- > NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, > Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... > > Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. > If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Thank you, but no thank you, cable is bad enough where it's at, joel yancey dead.deadend.com