From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Jan 26 02:26:16 1997
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Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:25:07 +0900 (JST)
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To: jkh@time.cdrom.com
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, keithl@wakko.gil.net, chat@freebsd.org,
        config@freebsd.org, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp
Subject: Re: Cursing the sky (was: Commerical applications ...) 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 24 Jan 1997 02:25:30 -0800.
	<18310.854101530@time.cdrom.com>
From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi)
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In article <18310.854101530@time.cdrom.com>
jkh@time.cdrom.com writes:

>> I like it!  Who's gonna write the yacc specification! :-)

I'm writing it now....

--
HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi
hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp
hosokawa@jp.FreeBSD.org

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Jan 26 07:12:10 1997
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From: grog@lemis.de
Message-Id: <199701261443.PAA02911@freebie.lemis.de>
Subject: Re: X-inside memory footprint
In-Reply-To: <199701210833.TAA00372@putte.seeware.DIALix.oz.au> from Mark Hannon at "Jan 21, 97 07:33:45 pm"
To: mark@seeware.DIALix.oz.au (Mark Hannon)
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:43:16 +0100 (MET)
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Mark Hannon writes:
>
>>
>>>    PID USERNAME PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME   WCPU    CPU COMMAND
>>>    158 root       2    0 3892K 7140K select   0:14  2.25%  2.25% Xaccel
>>
>>  That is quite a bit bigger than my X server (nearly double).
>>  What resolution and depth?  Since CDE apparently requires Xaccel,
>>  this could be a concern...
>
> 16bpp, 1152x800

You think you have problems.  I'm using Xaccel 1.3 with two screens
(1600x1200, 1280x1024), and I get:

root       429  1.1 49.5 21360 31256  ??  S     2:25PM    2:31.97 X :0

The machine has only been up for 90 minutes.  After a few days, it
hits 40 MB.

Greg

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Jan 26 13:15:19 1997
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From: Kenneth Merry <ken@housing1.stucen.gatech.edu>
Message-Id: <199701262113.QAA29293@housing1.stucen.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: X-inside memory footprint
In-Reply-To: <199701261443.PAA02911@freebie.lemis.de> from "grog@lemis.de" at "Jan 26, 97 03:43:16 pm"
To: grog@lemis.de
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:13:38 -0500 (EST)
Cc: mark@seeware.dialix.oz.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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grog@lemis.de wrote...
> Mark Hannon writes:
> >
> >>
> >>>    PID USERNAME PRI NICE  SIZE   RES STATE    TIME   WCPU    CPU COMMAND
> >>>    158 root       2    0 3892K 7140K select   0:14  2.25%  2.25% Xaccel
> >>
> >>  That is quite a bit bigger than my X server (nearly double).
> >>  What resolution and depth?  Since CDE apparently requires Xaccel,
> >>  this could be a concern...
> >
> > 16bpp, 1152x800
> 
> You think you have problems.  I'm using Xaccel 1.3 with two screens
> (1600x1200, 1280x1024), and I get:
> 
> root       429  1.1 49.5 21360 31256  ??  S     2:25PM    2:31.97 X :0
> 
> The machine has only been up for 90 minutes.  After a few days, it
> hits 40 MB.

	Here's what mine looks like, 24 bit color, 1280x1024, Xaccel 2.1:

  PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE    RES STATE    TIME   WCPU    CPU COMMAND
  215 root      2   0 14796K 36824K select  59:58  6.26%  6.26% Xaccel

	I can get the memory usage up a little higher temporarily by
running OpenGL demos, Java programs under Netscape, etc.  (btw, the above
memory usage is with xearth, xsnow, and netscape running).  I guess the
memory usage is all part of running at high resolutaions/color depths.


Ken
-- 
Kenneth Merry
ken@ulc199.residence.gatech.edu
Disclaimer:  I don't speak for GTRI, GT, or Elvis.

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Jan 26 13:52:12 1997
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To: netbsd-users@netbsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: The wonderful world of heterogenous PC OSes
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:38:13 -0600
From: VaX#n8 <vax@linkdead.paranoia.com>
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Nontechnical:

Hi.  While getting a second system up and running today, I was contemplating
that I seem to be gathering one computer per OS.  This seemed rather silly
to me, since one PC and a cool boot manager aught to do the trick, but I've
begin to find out a couple of things:

Some of them boot in profoundly dumb ways (these are mostly commercial ones)

Some of them don't coexist peacefully

Unix likes to stay running; named caches names and a reboot blows the
cache away (I have an idea of sending it SIGINT and saving the /var/tmp
file away in some kind of cache for next reboot, would that work?)
Shutting down frequently leaves jobs half-finished.
There's often no good recovery.
There's not even a particularly good way to (for example) have Unix
change personalities and start PPPing into somewhere else, acting like
a different host (sendmail caches the hostname and you run into other
problems, and of course a firewalled setup gets complicated).

People like to have a box running; that way you can debug your problem
with the help of the Internet, and if you screw up the boot process or
partitioning, your important stuff is still safe.

Therefore, it seems logical to have a Unix "server" which has most of
the storage and media types, changes infrequently both hardware-wise
and system-sw-wise, and has a very simple setup (e.g. no need in having
4 OSes on it).

Is this consistent with other people's collected wisdom?
Anyone have comments or solutions I may have overlooked?

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Jan 26 15:32:27 1997
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To: Kenneth Merry <ken@housing1.stucen.gatech.edu>
Cc: grog@lemis.de, mark@seeware.dialix.oz.au, chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: X-inside memory footprint 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:13:38 PST."
             <199701262113.QAA29293@housing1.stucen.gatech.edu> 
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:31:43 -0800
From: "Mike O'Brien" <obrien@antares.aero.org>
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	I discovered a way serious memory leak in the MIT X server for
the Sun, having to do with the server option to retain bitmaps for
obscured windows as a display accelerator.  Netscape's scrolling behavior
tickles this very badly, resulting in an X server that's over 100 Meg
within minutes.  Possibly XAccel has a similar problem.

Mike O'Brien

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 09:07:52 1997
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From: grog@lemis.de
Message-Id: <199701271437.PAA11821@freebie.lemis.de>
Subject: Re: X-inside memory footprint
In-Reply-To: <199701262331.PAA12026@antares.aero.org> from Mike O'Brien at "Jan 26, 97 03:31:43 pm"
To: obrien@antares.aero.org (Mike O'Brien)
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:37:35 +0100 (MET)
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Mike O'Brien writes:
> 	I discovered a way serious memory leak in the MIT X server for
> the Sun, having to do with the server option to retain bitmaps for
> obscured windows as a display accelerator.  Netscape's scrolling behavior
> tickles this very badly, resulting in an X server that's over 100 Meg
> within minutes.  Possibly XAccel has a similar problem.

I've been told on good authority that XAccel has a number of leaks,
but this doesn't fit the pattern.  The memory usage goes up gradually
over a period of some time, and Netscrape doesn't seem to accelerate
this behaviour.  I fired one up just a while back, and it hasn't
changed the VSZ at all.

BTW, does anybody know why RSS is so much larger than VSZ?  Is this
malloced memory?

Greg

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 17:22:32 1997
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199701272309.SAA22662@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: X-inside memory footprint
To: grog@lemis.de
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:09:34 -0500 (EST)
Cc: obrien@antares.aero.org, chat@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199701271437.PAA11821@freebie.lemis.de> from "grog@lemis.de" at Jan 27, 97 03:37:35 pm
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> 
> BTW, does anybody know why RSS is so much larger than VSZ?  Is this
> malloced memory?
> 
VSZ does NOT count normally mmaped memory (including framestore.)

John
dyson@freebsd.org

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 17:22:36 1997
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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:58:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Brian Tao <taob@vex.net>
To: FREEBSD-CHAT-L <freebsd-chat@freebsd.org>
Subject: Walnut Creek getting an upgrade?
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>From the login banner on ftp.cdrom.com:
>
>Wcarchive now has a 100Mbps connection (via multiple T3s) to the Internet!
>
>**** wcarchive will be down for part of the day on Wednesday, Jan. 29th,
>**** while an upgrade is performed.
>
>Please send mail to ftp-bugs@ftp.cdrom.com if you experience any problems!

    What sort of upgrade?  More CPU, disk, RAM and bandwidth?  :)
--
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"


From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 17:26:46 1997
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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:14:05 +0100
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk (Philippe Regnauld)
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2.2-B finds a i286 :-/
References: <Mutt.19970127165746.regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk>
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As Philippe Regnauld wrote:

> Just recompiled a kernel for a DX-2/50 and it panics on boot with:
> 
> CPU: i486 DX2 (286-class CPU) 
> Genuine Intel    Id=0x435 stepping=5
> CPU class not configured

Hmm, FreeBSD doesn't run on 286-class CPUs, AFAIK. :-))

(Ok, not much help for you... that's why i moved the blubber to -chat.)
-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 18:45:50 1997
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Posted-Date: Mon Jan 27 21:44:46 1997
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:44:46 -0500 (EST)
From: "Joseph D. Orthoefer" <j_orthoefer@tia.net>
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: something neat
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on machine "A" add something like the following to inetd.conf;

sshexp  stream  tcp     nowait  root    /usr/sbin/ppp  ppp -direct

where sshexp has been added as service 6666 in /etc/services.

on machine "B" xterm #1;

B> ssh -v -L 6666:machineA:6666 machineA -l wumpus

on machine "B" xterm #2;

B> ppp
User Process PPP. Written by Toshiharu OHNO.
Log level is 281
Warning: No password entry for this host in ppp.secret
Warning: All manipulation is allowed by anyone in the world
Using interface: tun0
Interactive mode
ppp ON B> set device 127.0.0.1:6666
ppp ON B> set ifaddr 10.0.0.1 10.0.0.2
ppp ON B> dial
dial OK!
login OK!
ppp ON B> Packet mode.

(some creative use of static routes is left to the reader)

Joseph Orthoefer
Techmatics IAC LLC


From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 19:26:48 1997
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Subject: Kernel config metasyntax
In-Reply-To: <18310.854101530@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jan 24, 97 02:25:30 am"
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:55:11 +1030 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp,
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Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying:
> > I really don't like that much.  How about :
> > 
> > # file : kern_options.kci
> > 
> > option "DDB" {
> > 	description	"Enables the kernel debugger"
> > 	manref		"ddb(4)"
> > }
> > [ Other examples elided ]
> 
> I like it!  Who's gonna write the yacc specification! :-)

Uhh, why do we want a yacc parser for this?  

What's wrong with :

proc option {name attrib} {

	global Options;

	lappend Options(list) $name;

	foreach attrp $attrib {
		set aname [lindex $attrp 0];
		set aval [lrange $attrp 1 end];
		set Options($name:$aname) $aval;
	}
}

proc config_read {dir} {

	set cfiles [glob -nocomplain $dir/*.kci];

	foreach f $cfiles {
		source $f;
	}
}

(note error/range checking elided for clarity)

> 					Jordan

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 19:40:06 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax 
Cc: chat@freebsd.org, config@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:55:11 +1030."
		<199701280325.NAA06408@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
References: <199701280325.NAA06408@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>  
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:39:48 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199701280325.NAA06408@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes:
: What's wrong with :

I don't want to write TCL to add options to the kernel :-)

TCL has its time and place, but as a meta language to describe
something it falls down.  I've seen projects that have tried to do
this go down in flames.

TCL is cool, but it isn't always right tool.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 19:40:45 1997
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Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:40:33 -0800
From: obrien@dragon.cs.ucdavis.edu (David O'Brien)
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2.2-B finds a i286 :-/
References: <Mutt.19970127165746.regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk> <Mutt.19970127221405.j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
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J Wunsch writes:
> As Philippe Regnauld wrote:
> 
> > Just recompiled a kernel for a DX-2/50 and it panics on boot with:
> > 
> > CPU: i486 DX2 (286-class CPU) 
> > Genuine Intel    Id=0x435 stepping=5
> > CPU class not configured

> Hmm, FreeBSD doesn't run on 286-class CPUs, AFAIK. :-))

I guess someone forgot to tell that "286" that.  :-)

Maybe I should update the handbook where I wrote that a 286 didn't have
what it took to run FreeBSD...
 
-- 
-- David	(obrien@NUXI.com  -or-  obrien@FreeBSD.org)

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 20:17:13 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199701280416.OAA06928@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax
In-Reply-To: <E0vp4Oi-00037g-00@rover.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Jan 27, 97 08:39:48 pm"
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:46:53 +1030 (CST)
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Warner Losh stands accused of saying:
> In message <199701280325.NAA06408@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes:
> : What's wrong with :
> 
> I don't want to write TCL to add options to the kernel :-)

Argh!  You don't _have_ to!  Please don't muddy the waters like this.

We are talking about a _metaconfiguration_ spec, for a tool which 
produces, as its end result, a traditional config(8) input file.

You are not being asked to write the tool.

To add an option, you would write an option definition in the
metaconfiguration language.  The example I provided _explicitly_
parses the metaconfiguration language samples that I posted earlier;
it simply takes advange of the braced syntax and the Tcl parser to
avoid reinventing the wheel.  If you want to parse the syntax in 
another language, it's still easy.

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 20:23:22 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199701280423.OAA07019@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax
In-Reply-To: <199701280416.OAA06928@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Jan 28, 97 02:46:53 pm"
To: msmith@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:53:14 +1030 (CST)
Cc: config@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org
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Michael Smith stands accused of saying:
> 
> To add an option, you would write an option definition in the
> metaconfiguration language.  The example I provided _explicitly_
> parses the metaconfiguration language samples that I posted earlier;
> it simply takes advange of the braced syntax and the Tcl parser to
> avoid reinventing the wheel.  If you want to parse the syntax in 
> another language, it's still easy.

I haven't commented on Tatsumi's post yet (still too busy 8) but one
thing that I should observe :

Using a rigid syntax (eg. a Yacc syntax) is a Very Bad Idea, as it
closes the definition of the language.  The whole idea behind the
attribute name/value pairing is that attribute-dependent functions
should be triggered by the presence of the attribute, and it should be
possible to add attributes to an option/whatever definition without
having to tell the parser about it.

(ie. if you eyeball the Tcl parser I posted, you'll notice that all it
does is register the existence of the option, and pile all of the
attributes supplied with it into the array.  Later, anything that cares
about options can access all of this and make up its own mind; the parser
should not need to know or care what the attributes and their valus are.)

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 20:29:56 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax 
Cc: chat@freebsd.org, config@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:46:53 +1030."
		<199701280416.OAA06928@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
References: <199701280416.OAA06928@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>  
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:29:43 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199701280416.OAA06928@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes:
: Argh!  You don't _have_ to!  Please don't muddy the waters like this.
: 
: We are talking about a _metaconfiguration_ spec, for a tool which 
: produces, as its end result, a traditional config(8) input file.

Yes, but to add options to that tool, I'd have to write TCL.  I
suppose cut and paste isn't so bad for doing that.  I don't know TCL
very well, and it is hard enough to gork the config file config files
right now that any more would seem a burdon.

However, that said, if TCL can be made to be unobstrusive enough to
hide most of the langauge and it would be a simple matter of cut and
past to add most things, then I'd have no problems with that....

: it simply takes advange of the braced syntax and the Tcl parser to
: avoid reinventing the wheel.

Hmmm, same could be said for a lispish

(option 'DDB :description "blah" :type 'boolean)
(option 'DDB_PANIC_REBOOT :description "blah blah" :type 'boolean
 :depends-on 'DDB)

which would be just a simple eval in lisp :-)

However, no matter what the language, I'm all for doing things as
easily as possible, and if that is TCL, then go for it.  As you may
guess, I've been left with a bad taste in my mouth for TCL over the
years, so I tend to react negatively to it.  If others thing that it
is the way to go, and they are the ones writing the config tools, then
my likes and dislikes really don't matter.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 20:50:52 1997
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To: Brian Tao <taob@vex.net>
cc: FREEBSD-CHAT-L <freebsd-chat@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek getting an upgrade? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:58:29 EST."
             <Pine.GSO.3.94.970127175701.26755A-100000@vex.net> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:50:27 -0800
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>>From the login banner on ftp.cdrom.com:
>>
>>Wcarchive now has a 100Mbps connection (via multiple T3s) to the Internet!
>>
>>**** wcarchive will be down for part of the day on Wednesday, Jan. 29th,
>>**** while an upgrade is performed.
>>
>>Please send mail to ftp-bugs@ftp.cdrom.com if you experience any problems!
>
>    What sort of upgrade?  More CPU, disk, RAM and bandwidth?  :)

   I'm replacing one of the old drive arrays (4 old 5.25" 3GB drives) with a
new set of 5 new 3.5" 9.1GB ultra-wide drives. This will increase the capacity
of the archive to 106GB with room for another 4 drives in the future.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 20:56:41 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199701280456.PAA07513@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax
In-Reply-To: <E0vp5B1-0003Cu-00@rover.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Jan 27, 97 09:29:43 pm"
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:26:17 +1030 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org, config@freebsd.org
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Warner Losh stands accused of saying:
> : 
> : We are talking about a _metaconfiguration_ spec, for a tool which 
> : produces, as its end result, a traditional config(8) input file.
> 
> Yes, but to add options to that tool, I'd have to write TCL.  I
> suppose cut and paste isn't so bad for doing that.  I don't know TCL
> very well, and it is hard enough to gork the config file config files
> right now that any more would seem a burdon.

In most cases, modifying the tool would not be required; the presence
of the option and its attributes would provide the tool with all the
information it needed to handle it intelligently.

It would only be in the rare case that you had an
option/driver/whatever that required abnormal treatment that
Tcl-munging would be required.

> However, that said, if TCL can be made to be unobstrusive enough to
> hide most of the langauge and it would be a simple matter of cut and
> past to add most things, then I'd have no problems with that....

That's the desired goal.

> (option 'DDB :description "blah" :type 'boolean)
> (option 'DDB_PANIC_REBOOT :description "blah blah" :type 'boolean
>  :depends-on 'DDB)
> 
> which would be just a simple eval in lisp :-)

Yup, but perhaps somewhat tougher to parse with 'normal' languages 8)

> However, no matter what the language, I'm all for doing things as
> easily as possible, and if that is TCL, then go for it.

I've tried to make my stance on this clear; I use Tcl, and I would
chose it if I were implementing this. (I may yet, depending on whether
I can manage everything else 8( ) However, if someone else decides to
implement in another language, that's not going to kill me.

What _is_ important is that the syntax we chose is simple to parse in
most languages, and it is open to simple extension without having to
rewrite the parser.

> As you may guess, I've been left with a bad taste in my mouth for
> TCL over the years, so I tend to react negatively to it.

I can appreciate this.  Personally, I'd like to help you get over your
aversion because I think you're missing out, and because I value your
input, and having it coloured by a reflexive reaction is unhelpful.

You point about the implementor's right stands however; if someone's
there with code in their hands to do this stuff, I'm not going to
dispute their language choice 8)

> Warner

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 21:04:02 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:01:38 +0900 (JST)
Message-Id: <199701280501.OAA16760@lenlen.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp>
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au
Cc: config@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:53:14 +1030 (CST).
	<199701280423.OAA07019@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi)
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I don't want to flame about metaconfiguration base language because
the only thing I want is megtaconfiguration language :-).

The reason why I used yacc (but the list I send can't be compiled
because I haven't defined "controller" yet and it has a few syntax
errors...), is yacc is traditional, well-defined, and of coourse most
popular tool in designing languages on UNIX system.

And I've wrote a programming language translator and configuration
file parser in Perl, I felt that writing parser in Perl is easy, but I
felt the syntax is ambiguous and I doubt that there still remains very
simple errors in parser, and if I give the other files than I wrote as
samples, it will crash with unknown problems.

If many people says it's my fault and others do not, or it's Perl's
weakness and TCL is not, and writing parser in TCL is the better way,
I'll agree with writing parser in TCL of course.

I personally think that writing parser in yacc is not difficult, and I
wrote yesterday's example only in a few hours.  I also posted this
example in local hacker's mailing list and I got some advices.  I'm
fixing the problems and extending the syntax to incorporate requested
features.

--
HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi
hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp
hosokawa@jp.FreeBSD.org

From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Jan 27 22:03:51 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199701280601.QAA07873@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax
In-Reply-To: <199701280501.OAA16760@lenlen.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> from HOSOKAWA Tatsumi at "Jan 28, 97 02:01:38 pm"
To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:31:49 +1030 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, config@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org,
        hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp
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HOSOKAWA Tatsumi stands accused of saying:
> I don't want to flame about metaconfiguration base language because
> the only thing I want is megtaconfiguration language :-).

Ooh, you mean a megaconfiguration language?   I agree 100%   8)

> I personally think that writing parser in yacc is not difficult, and I
> wrote yesterday's example only in a few hours.  I also posted this
> example in local hacker's mailing list and I got some advices.  I'm
> fixing the problems and extending the syntax to incorporate requested
> features.

My basic problem with using a yacc parser is that it sets not only
the syntax but the content of the language in stone.  The syntax I
proposed basically boils down to :

line :

 ->-(type)-(name)-[attribute-list]->-

attribute-list :

 ->-'{'-+-[attribute]-+-'}'->-
        |             |
        +-----<-------+

attribute :

 ->-'{'-(attribute-name)-+-(attribute-value)-+-'}'->-
                         |                   |
                         +---------<---------+

Where the parser _explicitly_ knows nothing about (type), (name),
(attribute-name) or (attribute-value).

I realise that in a B&D language like C, this abstraction is a little
more complex to manage, but that is more an argument for a better
choice of implementation language than a slur on the syntax.

> HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 02:26:49 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:26:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Snob Art Genre <ben@narcissus.ml.org>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
cc: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, chat@freebsd.org,
        config@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax 
In-Reply-To: <E0vp5B1-0003Cu-00@rover.village.org>
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On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Warner Losh wrote:

> 
> However, no matter what the language, I'm all for doing things as
> easily as possible, and if that is TCL, then go for it.  As you may
> guess, I've been left with a bad taste in my mouth for TCL over the
> years, so I tend to react negatively to it.  If others thing that it
> is the way to go, and they are the ones writing the config tools, then
> my likes and dislikes really don't matter.

You people are making the flame war as genteel as afternoon tea.  
This has gotta stop.  :)

> 
> Warner
> 



 Ben

The views expressed above are not those of the Worker's Compensation 
Board of Queensland, Australia.



From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 02:41:33 1997
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To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, config@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org
Cc: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax
In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:01:38 +0900 (JST).
	<199701280501.OAA16760@lenlen.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp>
From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi)
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In article <199701280501.OAA16760@lenlen.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp>
 writes:

>> I personally think that writing parser in yacc is not difficult, and I
>> wrote yesterday's example only in a few hours.  I also posted this
>> example in local hacker's mailing list and I got some advices.  I'm
>> fixing the problems and extending the syntax to incorporate requested
>> features.

FYI: requested features I want to introduce.

1. The abilty to describe "why A depends on B, or why A can't coexist
   with B".

2. PnP support.

--
HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi
hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp
hosokawa@jp.FreeBSD.org

From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 05:01:22 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: msmith@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), config@freebsd.org,
        chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax 
In-reply-to: <199701280423.OAA07019@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:53:33 +1100
From: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
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On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:53:14 +1030 (CST)  Michael Smith wrote:

> Later, anything that cares about options can access all of this and
> make up its own mind; the parser should not need to know or care
> what the attributes and their valus are.)

In practice with tools implemented this way there is usually little
semantic checking, so typos such as incorrectly spelt attributes are
not detected and the Wrong Thing happens.

Tools with more integrated semantic checks (typical with yacc :) don't
have this problem.

If you use TCL, please validate input carefully.

Giles


From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 05:37:55 1997
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, chat@freebsd.org,
        config@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:29:43 MST."
             <E0vp5B1-0003Cu-00@rover.village.org> 
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:38:37 -0500
From: Bakul Shah <bakul@torrentnet.com>
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> (option 'DDB :description "blah" :type 'boolean)
> (option 'DDB_PANIC_REBOOT :description "blah blah" :type 'boolean
>  :depends-on 'DDB)

> which would be just a simple eval in lisp :-)

(-: :-)

> However, no matter what the language, I'm all for doing things as
> easily as possible, and if that is TCL, then go for it.  As you may
> guess, I've been left with a bad taste in my mouth for TCL over the
> years, so I tend to react negatively to it.  If others thing that it
> is the way to go, and they are the ones writing the config tools, then
> my likes and dislikes really don't matter.

I am with Warner on this one.

Syntax of a language is the least of one's worries (except when it
gets in the way).  The hard part is pinning down consistent
semantics.  Also, languages tend to grow and its uses evolve.
Someone else may have to extend it later.  For all these reasons,
whether one uses YACC+C or TCL or Lisp or Prolog, it would make
sense to first define the semantics:

- What do you want the config language to be?
- What objects and relationships should it describe?
  (e.g. busses, IO-devices, drivers, parameters, subsystems ...)
- Can the language describe the *complete* set of objects and
  relationships for existing configurations?
- Can you come up with rules that future configurations are *likely*
  to fit in?  For example, rather than enumerating all the possible
  objects of interest, can you come up with a `type' object and ways
  to define new types?
- Do you need to embed bits of C code (e.g. for generating param.c,
  config.c, ioconf.c) or do you need to use some `magic' rules?
- Can the language be `declarative' as opposed to `algorithmic'?
  The former is easier to use, the latter easier to implement.
- Can you make do with a smaller language?  Can an existing language
  be used as a starting point or base?

One doesn't have to be formal/anal about this process but it helps
to be aware of it.  At the very least I would start with defining
config objects of interest and their relationships if I were doing
this.

BTW, Prolog may make a pretty good fit for a configuration language
(or a model for it) since it can compactly describe relationships.

My 2 cents

-- bakul

From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 06:09:12 1997
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To: Snob Art Genre <ben@narcissus.ml.org>
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax 
Cc: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, chat@freebsd.org,
        config@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Jan 1997 02:26:41 PST."
		<Pine.BSF.3.91.970128022533.25251F-100000@narcissus.ml.org> 
References: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970128022533.25251F-100000@narcissus.ml.org>  
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 07:08:52 -0700
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <Pine.BSF.3.91.970128022533.25251F-100000@narcissus.ml.org> Snob Art Genre writes:
: You people are making the flame war as genteel as afternoon tea.  
: This has gotta stop.  :)

Hey.  Don't tell us how to have a flame war, you blarg of a narled
graftnict! :-)

Warner

From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 06:31:48 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:31:28 +0000 (GMT)
From: David Brownlee <david@mono.org>
Reply-To: David Brownlee <david@mono.org>
To: VaX#n8 <vax@linkdead.paranoia.com>
cc: netbsd-users@NetBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The wonderful world of heterogenous PC OSes
In-Reply-To: <199701262138.PAA19513@linkdead.paranoia.com>
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	It depends very much on what your needs are, whether you would
	leave machines on overnight, etc.
	
	If you're happy enough leaving a single machine on continually,
	juct locking/blanking the screen & coming back to whatever you
	were doing later then you have a perfect case to hang the modem
	off the back of that machine and make it your 'server', and to
	have a second machine for everything up to 'crash and burn'
	testing ("Oh its trashed my disks.. well I'm annoyed, but
	then again its not my server" :)

	You seem to be pretty much on track :)

		David/abs	david@{mono.org,southern.com,mhm-internet.com}

System Manager: Southern Studios Ltd, PO Box 59, London N22 1AR.
Satisfied User: NetBSD, free Un*x {i386,sparc,mac68k,+more} 'www.netbsd.org'.
  System Admin: MHM Internet, 14 Barley Mow Passage, Chiswick, London W4 4PH.
         SysOP: Monochrome, Largest UK Internet BBS - 'telnet mono.org'.

On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, VaX#n8 wrote:

> Nontechnical:
> 
> Hi.  While getting a second system up and running today, I was contemplating
> that I seem to be gathering one computer per OS.  This seemed rather silly
> to me, since one PC and a cool boot manager aught to do the trick, but I've
> begin to find out a couple of things:
> 
> Some of them boot in profoundly dumb ways (these are mostly commercial ones)
> 
> Some of them don't coexist peacefully
> 
> Unix likes to stay running; named caches names and a reboot blows the
> cache away (I have an idea of sending it SIGINT and saving the /var/tmp
> file away in some kind of cache for next reboot, would that work?)
> Shutting down frequently leaves jobs half-finished.
> There's often no good recovery.
> There's not even a particularly good way to (for example) have Unix
> change personalities and start PPPing into somewhere else, acting like
> a different host (sendmail caches the hostname and you run into other
> problems, and of course a firewalled setup gets complicated).
> 
> People like to have a box running; that way you can debug your problem
> with the help of the Internet, and if you screw up the boot process or
> partitioning, your important stuff is still safe.
> 
> Therefore, it seems logical to have a Unix "server" which has most of
> the storage and media types, changes infrequently both hardware-wise
> and system-sw-wise, and has a very simple setup (e.g. no need in having
> 4 OSes on it).
> 
> Is this consistent with other people's collected wisdom?
> Anyone have comments or solutions I may have overlooked?
> 



From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 06:32:32 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax
In-Reply-To: <199701281253.XAA15463@nemeton.com.au> from Giles Lean at "Jan 28, 97 11:53:33 pm"
To: giles@nemeton.com.au (Giles Lean)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:02:23 +1030 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, config@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org
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Giles Lean stands accused of saying:
> 
> > Later, anything that cares about options can access all of this and
> > make up its own mind; the parser should not need to know or care
> > what the attributes and their valus are.)
> 
> In practice with tools implemented this way there is usually little
> semantic checking, so typos such as incorrectly spelt attributes are
> not detected and the Wrong Thing happens.

Er, you don't mean semantic checking, you mean content checking, correct?

As I've already observed, the parser should not know anything about
the _content_ of the attributes it parses, and thus cannot possibly
attempt to validate them.

> Tools with more integrated semantic checks (typical with yacc :) don't
> have this problem.

They also have rigid and untrivially-extensible syntaxen.

> If you use TCL, please validate input carefully.

Insofar as is possible, sure.  I don't think, however, that the sort
of checking that you describe is feasible, desirable or even
necessary, given that the input isn't going to be user-supplied.

> Giles

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 10:10:52 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 10:06:14 Pacific Standard Time
From: "Sean J. Schluntz"  <schluntz@pinpt.com>
Subject: Suggestion for the FreeBSD Book.
To: chat@freebsd.org, doc@freebsd.org
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What if the FreeBSD Book was published like some cookbooks.  A shrink wrapped 
set of three ring hole punched papers with index pages and a small binder 
(Fiction Hardback sized.)  Then people could subscribe to the updates, and 
FreeBSD could just mail out the sections that have changed.  

This would mean that the entire book does not have to be reprinted every time 
there is a change, and the wastage of old paperwork would be much less because 
you would only remove the sections that have gone out of date. 

-Sean
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean J. Schluntz                                  <schluntz@pinpt.com>
Manager, Support Services                        ph. 408.997.6900 x222
PinPoint Software Corporation                    fx. 408.323.2300
6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 
San Jose, CA.  95120                             http://www.pinpt.com/

Local Time Sent: 01/28/97 10:06:15
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 10:20:43 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:22:48 -0600
From: "Tracy E. Phillips" <tphilips@cedar.netten.net>
Organization: Diamond P
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Subject: Could someone explain ram diffs?
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hi,


Could someone explain (in verbose mode) the different types of ram and
what the advantages and disadvantages are for motherboards and vidio
cards?

Tracy

From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 10:27:37 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:25:06 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: grog@lemis.de
cc: "Mike O'Brien" <obrien@antares.aero.org>, FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: X-inside memory footprint
In-Reply-To: <199701271437.PAA11821@freebie.lemis.de>
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On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 grog@lemis.de wrote:

> I've been told on good authority that XAccel has a number of leaks,
> but this doesn't fit the pattern.  The memory usage goes up gradually
> over a period of some time, and Netscrape doesn't seem to accelerate
> this behaviour.  I fired one up just a while back, and it hasn't
> changed the VSZ at all.

Ever X server I've used seems to exhibit the gradual growth
behavior.  X doubt XAccel would be any worse than, say, XFree86
on this front.  Every week or two, when the server gets too big
for my liking, I re-start it. 

-john


From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 11:30:56 1997
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From: Ping Mai <ping@stepnet.com>
Message-Id: <199701281930.LAA01581@tibet.stepnet.com>
Subject: Walnut Creek config
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:30:37 -0800 (PST)
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with all the debate over cisco routers vs serial cards,
i am curious as to what the walnet creek server use for
its t3 connections.

forget i asked if this is a trade secret or some sort.

ping

From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 12:35:15 1997
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To: Ping Mai <ping@stepnet.com>
cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek config 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:30:37 PST."
             <199701281930.LAA01581@tibet.stepnet.com> 
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:32:05 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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It doesn't have a T3 connection, it has a 100MB connection
(100BTX) into a router which then fans out into multiple T3s.

					Jordan

> with all the debate over cisco routers vs serial cards,
> i am curious as to what the walnet creek server use for
> its t3 connections.
> 
> forget i asked if this is a trade secret or some sort.
> 
> ping


From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 13:07:01 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: config@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Kernel config metasyntax 
In-reply-to: <199701281432.BAA12099@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:00:09 +1100
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On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:02:23 +1030 (CST)  Michael Smith wrote:

> Er, you don't mean semantic checking, you mean content checking,
> correct?

Content checking is minimum (catch those typos) but semantic checking
for inconsistent options is useful as well.

> Insofar as is possible, sure.  I don't think, however, that the sort
> of checking that you describe is feasible, desirable or even
> necessary, given that the input isn't going to be user-supplied.

I don't mind you arguing 'desirable' or 'necessary' but feasible is
precisely what I am concerned about.  I dislike tools that don't
validate their inputs, and to build one that cannot validate seems
unwise.

(In fact checking is feasible with a tool such as you describe, but
would have to be a separate stage to parsing.)

The current design of 'config' where options are passed through as C
#defines is less than wonderful.  I took a support call once at HP for
someone who had set MAXDSIZ to be greater than 2^32.  Interesting
things happened but config should have caught it. :-(

Giles


From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 13:39:46 1997
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
Message-Id: <199701282139.NAA12253@freefall.freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek config
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:39:41 -0800 (PST)
Cc: ping@stepnet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <10908.854483525@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 28, 97 12:32:05 pm
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	where do the T-3's connect to?

Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> 
> It doesn't have a T3 connection, it has a 100MB connection
> (100BTX) into a router which then fans out into multiple T3s.
> 
> 					Jordan
> 
> > with all the debate over cisco routers vs serial cards,
> > i am curious as to what the walnet creek server use for
> > its t3 connections.
> > 
> > forget i asked if this is a trade secret or some sort.
> > 
> > ping
> 
> 


From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 13:46:48 1997
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To: "Sean J. Schluntz" <schluntz@pinpt.com>
cc: chat@freebsd.org, doc@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion for the FreeBSD Book. 
In-reply-to: <Chameleon.854475021.List@journeyman> 
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:38:00 +1100
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On Tue, 28 Jan 97 10:06:14 Pacific Standard Time  "Sean J. Schluntz" wrote:

> What if the FreeBSD Book was published like some cookbooks.  A shrink wrapped 
> set of three ring hole punched papers with index pages and a small binder 
> (Fiction Hardback sized.)  Then people could subscribe to the updates, and 
> FreeBSD could just mail out the sections that have changed.  

Every vendor I've seen shipping documentation this way has stopped.

Too ugly, too time consuming, too expensive for the users who have to
do the updates.

Giles


From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 14:28:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:27:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Guy Helmer <ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu>
To: "Tracy E. Phillips" <tphilips@cedar.netten.net>
cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Could someone explain ram diffs?
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On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Tracy E. Phillips wrote:

> Could someone explain (in verbose mode) the different types of ram and
> what the advantages and disadvantages are for motherboards and vidio
> cards?

Maybe you could find the information for which you are searching at:

http://sysdoc.pair.com/

Also known as "Tom's Hardware Guide", this site contains lots of info on
CPUs and motherboards, RAM, disks, video cards, and so on. 

Guy Helmer, Computer Science Grad Student, Iowa State - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu
http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer

Looking for a stable, standard & free UNIX-like O/S?    http://www.freebsd.org


From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 15:27:50 1997
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cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), ping@stepnet.com,
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Subject: Re: Walnut Creek config 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:39:41 PST."
             <199701282139.NAA12253@freefall.freebsd.org> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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>	where do the T-3's connect to?
>
>Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> 
>> It doesn't have a T3 connection, it has a 100MB connection
>> (100BTX) into a router which then fans out into multiple T3s.
>> 
>> 					Jordan
>> 
>> > with all the debate over cisco routers vs serial cards,
>> > i am curious as to what the walnet creek server use for
>> > its t3 connections.
>> > 
>> > forget i asked if this is a trade secret or some sort.

   I should make a few things clear at this point. First, "Walnut Creek CDROM"
in Concord has just a T1 connection. Our FTP server, wcarchive.cdrom.com, is
co-located at the CRL NOC in downtown San Francisco. wcarchive connects to
CRL's core routers through a fast ethernet (100Mbps) switch. CRL has T3s
connecting to CIX-SMDS, MAE-west, PacBell-NAP, and MAE-east. They also have
some 155Mbps ATM connections that form part of their own backbone on the west
coast, and 45Mbps ATM connections that form the rest of their US backbone.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 19:04:44 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:04:46 -0800
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While reading the business section, I saw a computer which looked
very user friendly -- I started to dismiss it however something 
caught my eye -- no keyboard--. Upon closer examination I saw
that it was Whistle's Interjet very nice looking router.

	Enjoy,
	Amancio



From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Jan 28 20:18:52 1997
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:18:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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This doesn't relate directly to FreeBSD, so I didn't post it to a
"working" list, but it's interesting.  RSA Data Security just started
their challenge, $10,000.00 to the first guy to break their 40 bit US
legal crypto.  What a surprise, a student from UC Berkeley broke it in 3.5
hours.  Flag up, flag down, real short challenge.  I have the two page
article on it (it was sent to the cryptography list I subscribe to).

If there's significant interest, I'll post it.  The thing to consider is
that this clearly highlights to everyone how totally useless the (legally
allowed) US data encryption is.  One can hope the embarrassment will have
some good effect.

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Jan 29 00:56:15 1997
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Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:54:44 +0200 (IST)
From: Nadav Eiron <nadav@cs.technion.ac.il>
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To: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
cc: "Sean J. Schluntz" <schluntz@pinpt.com>, chat@freebsd.org, doc@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Suggestion for the FreeBSD Book. 
In-Reply-To: <199701282138.IAA26117@nemeton.com.au>
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On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Giles Lean wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 28 Jan 97 10:06:14 Pacific Standard Time  "Sean J. Schluntz" wrote:
> 
> > What if the FreeBSD Book was published like some cookbooks.  A shrink wrapped 
> > set of three ring hole punched papers with index pages and a small binder 
> > (Fiction Hardback sized.)  Then people could subscribe to the updates, and 
> > FreeBSD could just mail out the sections that have changed.  
> 
> Every vendor I've seen shipping documentation this way has stopped.
> 
> Too ugly, too time consuming, too expensive for the users who have to
> do the updates.

DEC for one, used to have the VMS docs in binders up until V6.0 (that's a
huge set of docs - some 30 or more books) and then they moved to paper
back. The official excuse was that the binders are not recycleable (so now
DEC is out to save the rain forest or something?) while the paperbacks are
printed on recycled paper. IMHO, the binders were simply too expensive to
manufacture and ship (they weight about twice as much as the paper back
version). To the user I guess the binders are a blessing. The paperbacks
can't be left open on a specific page without them falling apart after a
week of heavy use. Since they have some 30 books, and each version updates
just a small subset of them (usually up to 8) they still don't have to
reproduce the whole set for each update.

Bottom line is, IMHO, that binedr updates are not practical for the
*vendor* not the user, especially if you have a small number of volumes.
In most cases you'll replace a complete volume anyhow. As a user, I like
it *alot*, especially for something the size of the VMS docs. For a single
volume - I guess it doesn't really matter.

> 
> Giles
> 
> 
Nadav


From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Jan 29 01:38:30 1997
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From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@superior.truenorth.org>
Message-Id: <199701290936.BAA22567@superior.truenorth.org>
Subject: Re: Suggestion for the FreeBSD Book.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95-heb-2.07.970129104742.24858A-100000@csd> from Nadav Eiron at "Jan 29, 97 10:54:44 am"
To: nadav@cs.technion.ac.il (Nadav Eiron)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:36:43 -0800 (PST)
Cc: giles@nemeton.com.au, schluntz@pinpt.com, chat@freebsd.org,
        doc@freebsd.org
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>
>
>On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Giles Lean wrote:
>
>> 
>> On Tue, 28 Jan 97 10:06:14 Pacific Standard Time  "Sean J. Schluntz" wrote:
>> 
>> > What if the FreeBSD Book was published like some cookbooks.  A shrink wrapped 
>> > set of three ring hole punched papers with index pages and a small binder 
>> > (Fiction Hardback sized.)  Then people could subscribe to the updates, and 
>> > FreeBSD could just mail out the sections that have changed.  
>> 
>> Every vendor I've seen shipping documentation this way has stopped.
>> 
>> Too ugly, too time consuming, too expensive for the users who have to
>> do the updates.
>
>DEC for one, used to have the VMS docs in binders up until V6.0 (that's a
>huge set of docs - some 30 or more books) and then they moved to paper
>back. The official excuse was that the binders are not recycleable (so now
>DEC is out to save the rain forest or something?) while the paperbacks are
>printed on recycled paper. IMHO, the binders were simply too expensive to
>manufacture and ship (they weight about twice as much as the paper back
>version). To the user I guess the binders are a blessing. The paperbacks
>can't be left open on a specific page without them falling apart after a
>week of heavy use. Since they have some 30 books, and each version updates
>just a small subset of them (usually up to 8) they still don't have to
>reproduce the whole set for each update.
>
>Bottom line is, IMHO, that binedr updates are not practical for the
>*vendor* not the user, especially if you have a small number of volumes.
>In most cases you'll replace a complete volume anyhow. As a user, I like
>it *alot*, especially for something the size of the VMS docs. For a single
>volume - I guess it doesn't really matter.
>

Another down side to the 3-ring binder for the vendor is the ease of
copying the docs. In a past life I did a lot of work on VAX/VMS, `round the
time 4.7. At a number of sites I saw the client buy one copy of the
documentation set and allow the programmers to xerox as many copies as they
wanted. Often there were 30 or 40 copys floating around the site. 

Sun also used to issue their docs in 3-ring format. AFAIK only IBM is still
doing their mainframe docs in this format. Of course, if you have ever seen
IBM mainframe "wall of docs" then you would understand why they still
perfer to work in this foramt.


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch       | Laugh while you can, monkey boy ! |    FreeBSD 2.1.6
jgrosch@sirius.com |          - John Warfin -          | UNIX for the masses

From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Jan 29 02:25:09 1997
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From: Nadav Eiron <nadav@cs.technion.ac.il>
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Subject: Re: Suggestion for the FreeBSD Book.
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On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Josef Grosch wrote:

> >
> >
> >On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Giles Lean wrote:
> >
> >> 
> >> On Tue, 28 Jan 97 10:06:14 Pacific Standard Time  "Sean J. Schluntz" wrote:
> >> 
> >> > What if the FreeBSD Book was published like some cookbooks.  A shrink wrapped 
> >> > set of three ring hole punched papers with index pages and a small binder 
> >> > (Fiction Hardback sized.)  Then people could subscribe to the updates, and 
> >> > FreeBSD could just mail out the sections that have changed.  
> >> 
> >> Every vendor I've seen shipping documentation this way has stopped.
> >> 
> >> Too ugly, too time consuming, too expensive for the users who have to
> >> do the updates.
> >
> >DEC for one, used to have the VMS docs in binders up until V6.0 (that's a
> >huge set of docs - some 30 or more books) and then they moved to paper
> >back. The official excuse was that the binders are not recycleable (so now
> >DEC is out to save the rain forest or something?) while the paperbacks are
> >printed on recycled paper. IMHO, the binders were simply too expensive to
> >manufacture and ship (they weight about twice as much as the paper back
> >version). To the user I guess the binders are a blessing. The paperbacks
> >can't be left open on a specific page without them falling apart after a
> >week of heavy use. Since they have some 30 books, and each version updates
> >just a small subset of them (usually up to 8) they still don't have to
> >reproduce the whole set for each update.
> >
> >Bottom line is, IMHO, that binedr updates are not practical for the
> >*vendor* not the user, especially if you have a small number of volumes.
> >In most cases you'll replace a complete volume anyhow. As a user, I like
> >it *alot*, especially for something the size of the VMS docs. For a single
> >volume - I guess it doesn't really matter.
> >
> 
> Another down side to the 3-ring binder for the vendor is the ease of
> copying the docs. In a past life I did a lot of work on VAX/VMS, `round the
> time 4.7. At a number of sites I saw the client buy one copy of the
> documentation set and allow the programmersto xerox as many copies as they
> wanted. Often there were 30 or 40 copys floating around the site. 

Well, nowdays this is completly irrelevant. Everyone gives out the docs on
CDs anyhow, and you can print as many copies as you want from them. For
something like the complete VMS docs, I think it's cheaper to buy them.
The set is about $1000, and if it's 20,000 pages (I think there are at
least that many in it) that's 5c/page, which is not that expensive
considering it comes already bound and you don't have to waste *hours* on
Xeroxing that amount.

> 
> Sun also used to issue their docs in 3-ring format. AFAIK only IBM is still
> doing their mainframe docs in this format. Of course, if you have ever seen
> IBM mainframe "wall of docs" then you would understand why they still
> perfer to work in this foramt.
> 
> 
> Josef
> 
> -- 
> Josef Grosch       | Laugh while you can, monkey boy ! |    FreeBSD 2.1.6
> jgrosch@sirius.com |          - John Warfin -          |UNIX for the masses
> 
Nadav


From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Jan 29 04:30:19 1997
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Posted-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:30:08 -0500 (EST)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:30:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Branson Matheson <branson@ferginc.com>
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To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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Subject: Re: crypto stuff
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On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Chuck Robey wrote:

> This doesn't relate directly to FreeBSD, so I didn't post it to a
> "working" list, but it's interesting.  RSA Data Security just started
> their challenge, $10,000.00 to the first guy to break their 40 bit US
> legal crypto.  What a surprise, a student from UC Berkeley broke it in 3.5
> hours.  Flag up, flag down, real short challenge.  I have the two page
> article on it (it was sent to the cryptography list I subscribe to).
> 
> If there's significant interest, I'll post it.  The thing to consider is
> that this clearly highlights to everyone how totally useless the (legally
> allowed) US data encryption is.  One can hope the embarrassment will have
> some good effect.


 Not marked interest here! I would like a copy.. or better yet a url
 and post that so that every one can get it if they want!

  -branson
=============================================================================
 Branson Matheson     | Ferguson Enterprises  | If you're falling off a  
 System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795     | mountian, you might as well
 Unix, Perl, WWW      | branson@ferginc.com   | attempt to fly.  -Delenn


From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Jan 29 06:33:48 1997
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From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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Subject: More on crypto
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I've had a legion of requests to post the whole article (I was unsure of
interest on the list, so I was fishing for response).  I thought I'd
posted this last night after the first couple responses, but I haven't
seen it on the list.

Because of that, I'm going to post it again, including two new articles,
the first of which gives the URL everyone's requested, and the second
gives several urls that would be interesting to folks who want to
experiment with making DES crackers of their own.  You guys ought to note
the mailing list addresses, because the c2 list I'm posting from is pretty
low noise, about like FreeBSD-current.   Anyway, here's the artucles:


>From iang@cs.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 29 00:10:59 1997
>Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:59:15 -0800 (PST)
>From: Ian Goldberg <iang@cs.berkeley.edu>
>To: cryptography@c2.net
>Subject: Last nail for US crypto export policy?


EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY

January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, announced
today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security Inc.'s 40-bit
challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours.

RSA challenged scientists to break their encryption technology, offering a
$1000 award for breaking the weakest version of the code.  Their offering
was designed to stimulate research and practical experience with the security
of today's codes.

The number of bits in a cipher is an indication of the maximum level of
security the cipher can provide.  Each additional bit doubles the potential
security level of the cipher.  A recent panel of experts recommended
using 90-bit ciphers, and 128-bit ciphers are commonly used throughout
the world, but US government regulations restrict exportable US products
to a mere 40 bits.

Goldberg's announcement, which came just three and a half hours after
RSA started their contest, provides very strong evidence that 40-bit
ciphers are totally unsuitable for practical security.  "This is the
final proof of what we've known for years: 40-bit encryption technology
is obsolete," Goldberg said.

The US export restrictions have limited the deployment of technology
that could greatly strengthen security on the Internet, often affecting
both foreign and domestic users.  "We know how to build strong
encryption; the government just won't let us deploy it.  We need strong
encryption to uphold privacy, maintain security, and support commerce on
the Internet -- these export restrictions on cryptography must be
lifted,"  Goldberg explained.  Fittingly, when Goldberg finally
unscrambled the challenge message, it read: "This is why you should use
a longer key."

Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) to
harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines.  This allowed
him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- analogous to safecracking
by trying every possible combination at high speed.  This amount of computing
power is available with little overhead cost to students and employees at
many large educational institutions and corporations.

Goldberg is a founding member of the ISAAC computer security research group
at UC Berkeley.  In the Fall of 1995, the ISAAC group made headlines by
revealing a major security flaw in Netscape's web browser.

=======================================================================

>From sameer@c2.net Wed Jan 29 09:25:29 1997
>Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:40:41 -0800 (PST)
>From: sameer <sameer@c2.net>
>To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com
>Cc: iang@cs.berkeley.edu, cryptography@c2.net, cypherpunks@toad.com
>Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy?

http://now.cs.berkeley.edu/

> Yee-hah!  Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!)
> So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, 
> other than coordinating a bunch of workstations?
> Was it just brute force with well-tuned code?
> Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you
> tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible,
> so you hit the winner a shade early.  That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box.
> Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.?



-- 
Sameer Parekh					Voice:   510-986-8770
President					FAX:     510-986-8777
C2Net
http://www.c2.net/				sameer@c2.net

=====================================================================


>From das@razor.engr.sgi.com Wed Jan 29 09:25:38 1997
>Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:08:08 -0800
>From: Anil Das <das@razor.engr.sgi.com>
>To: James Robertson <jamesr@magna.com.au>
>Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7

On Jan 25, 10:49am, James Robertson wrote:
> 
> Are there any efforts being made to develop a version of the
> software that can be used by us non-US residents?
> 
> I would certainly like to participate in the Challenge. I'm 
> sure there are many other interested people out there, in the
> big wide world ...

No such development outside the US has been publicized.

However, it is easy enough to roll your own.

What you need:

1) Eric Young's libdes. ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/DES

2) Svend Olaf Mikkelsen's fast replacement for the core DES routine.
http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm
The latest libdes is supposed to have this faster routine incorporated
already, so you may not need it.

3) Peter Trei's article on "Optimizing DES Key Recovery in Software".
It is available at HKS's news server.
news://nntp.hks.net/<199610171918.MAA23054@toad.com>

For a first pass, you can just implement the Gray Code technique. That
gives most of the speedup.

4) Some information on how to implement Gray Codes.
"The Gray Code" by Robert W. Doran. Tech Report 131 from
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~techrep/1996.html

Given these resources, it shouldn't take long for a
good programmer to implement a DES key search program that
is in the same ballpark of performance as Peter Trei's implementation.

--
Anil Das



From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Jan 29 17:08:02 1997
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To: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi)
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:37:05 +1030 (CST)
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HOSOKAWA Tatsumi stands accused of saying:
> In article <199701280501.OAA16760@lenlen.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp>
>  writes:
> 
> >> I personally think that writing parser in yacc is not difficult, and I
> >> wrote yesterday's example only in a few hours.  I also posted this
> >> example in local hacker's mailing list and I got some advices.  I'm
> >> fixing the problems and extending the syntax to incorporate requested
> >> features.
> 
> FYI: requested features I want to introduce.
> 
> 1. The abilty to describe "why A depends on B, or why A can't coexist
>    with B".

That's easy, an "excludes" attribute, eg. :

option "FOO" {
...
	excludes {option BAR}
	excludes {device barbar}
...
}


> 2. PnP support.

Er.?  How does PnP support figure here?

> HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Jan 29 23:45:34 1997
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From: Rob Snow <rsnow@lgc.com>
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Subject: Yes lives!
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Someone reminded me today:

	yes | fsck

I check my work machines, no-go.  But, ahhh, it still lives.  When's the
last time anyone used yes?

-Rob


From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Jan 30 03:20:24 1997
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On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:44:51 -0600 (CST)  Rob Snow wrote:

> I check my work machines, no-go.  But, ahhh, it still lives.  When's the
> last time anyone used yes?

Couple of years, and I forget what for, but it was something kinda
real.  (Otherwise I've only used it for showing sub-optimal behaviour
of early 4.xBSD serial tty drivers. :)

Giles

From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Jan 30 06:42:38 1997
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Yes, I know the -y switch all to well, unfortunately.  I was just reminded
that once upon a time there wasn't a -y and we had to do things a bit
different.  I was just wondering if there was actually any other use for
yes.

Thanks,
Rob

On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, David O'Brien wrote:
> Rob Snow writes:
> > 
> > Someone reminded me today:
> > 
> > 	yes | fsck
> 
> There's also ``fsck -y /dev/foo''
> 
> -- 
> -- David	(obrien@NUXI.com  -or-  obrien@FreeBSD.org)
> 


From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Jan 31 00:09:00 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 03:08:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Will Mitayai Keeso Rowe <mitayai@dreamlabs.com>
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Lists...
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Hiya...

I have a suggestion re: the mailing lists. On other lists which i am on
and/or maintain, the subject header (which is easily configurable in
majordomo .config files) indicates what list it is with a prefix. Is it
possible, perhaps, that we could adopt such a thing here? 

-Mit
(examples provided if necessary)

			Will Mitayai Keeso Rowe
			 The DreamLabs Network
		        http://www.dreaming.org
			    (705)741-1089


From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Jan 31 00:23:40 1997
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Will Mitayai Keeso Rowe stands accused of saying:
> 
> I have a suggestion re: the mailing lists. On other lists which i am on
> and/or maintain, the subject header (which is easily configurable in
> majordomo .config files) indicates what list it is with a prefix. Is it
> possible, perhaps, that we could adopt such a thing here? 

It is for this (and other things) that procmail and its ilk were invented.
Please don't reduce even further the amount of useful subject space!

> -Mit

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Jan 31 13:32:32 1997
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Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:32:13 -0400 (AST)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: devil (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
The following is a true story.

Last week I walked into a local "home style cookin' restaurant/watering hole"
to pick up a take out order.   I spoke briefly to the waitress behind the
counter, who told me my order would be done in a few minutes.

So, while I was busy gazing at the farm implements hanging on the walls, I was
approached by two, uh, um... well, let's call them "natives".  These guys
might just be the *original* Texas rednecks -- complete with ten-gallon hats,
snakeskin boots and the pervasive odor of cheap beer and whiskey.

"Pardon us, ma'am.  Mind of we ask you a question?"

Well, people keep telling me that Texans are real friendly, so I
nodded.

"Are you a Satanist?"

Well, at least they didn't ask me if I liked to party.

"Uh, no, I can't say that I am."

"Gee ma'am.  Are you *sure* about that?" they asked.

I put on my biggest, brightest Dallas Cowboys cheerleader smile and said, "No,
I'm positive.  The closest I've ever come to Satanism is watching Geraldo."

"Hmm.  Interesting. See, we was just wondering why it is you have the lord of
darkness on your chest there."

I was *this close* to slapping one of them and causing a scene -- then I
stopped and noticed the T-shirt I happened to be wearing that day.  Sure
enough, it had a picture of a small, devilish looking creature that has for
quite some time now been associated with a certain operating system.  In this
particular representation, the creature was wearing sneakers.

They continued: "See, ma'am, we don't exactly *appreciate* it when people show
off pictures of the devil. Especially when he's lookin' so friendly."

These idiots sounded terrifyingly serious.

Me: "Oh, well, see, this isn't really the devil, it's just, well, it's sort of \
a
mascot."

Native: "And what kind of football team has the devil as a mascot?"

Me: "Oh, it's not a team.  It's an operating-- uh, a kind of computer."

I figured that an ATM machine was about as much technology as these guys could
handle, and I knew that if I so much as uttered the word "unix" I would only
make things worse.

Native: "Where does this satanical computer come from?"

Me: "California.  And there's nothing satanical about it really."

Somewhere along the line here, the waitress has noticed my predicament -- but
these guys probably outweighed her by 600 pounds, so all she did was look at
me sympathetically and run off into the kitchen.

Native: "Ma'am, I think you're lying.  And we'd appreciate it if you'd leave
the premises now."

Fortunately, the waitress returned that very instant with my order, and they
agreed that it would be okay for me to actually pay for my food before I left.
While I was at the cash register, they amused themselves by talking to each
other.

Native #1: "Do you think the police know about these devil computers?"

Native #2: "If they come from California, then the FBI oughta know about
'em."

They escorted me to the door.  I tried one last time: "You're really blowing
this all out of proportion.  A lot of people use this "kind of computers".
Universities, researchers, businesses.  They're actually very useful."

Big, big, BIG mistake.  I should have guessed at what came next.

Native: "Does the government use these devil computers?"

Me: "Yes."

Another BIG boo-boo.

Native: "And  does the government *pay* for 'em? With *our* tax dollars?"

I decided that it was time to jump ship.

Me: "No.  Nope.  Not at all.  You're tax dollars never entered the picture at
all.  I promise.  No sir, not a penny. Our good Christian congressmen would
never let something like that happen.  Nope.  Never. Bye."

Texas.  What a country.


From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Jan 31 21:32:10 1997
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According to Will Mitayai Keeso Rowe:
> I have a suggestion re: the mailing lists. On other lists which i am on
> and/or maintain, the subject header (which is easily configurable in
> majordomo .config files) indicates what list it is with a prefix. Is it
> possible, perhaps, that we could adopt such a thing here? 

It doesn't give anything that Sender: doesn't already. It can break mail
threading on some readers too. If this is for filtering, as Mike said, use
procmail and filter on Sender:...
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT    -=- The daemon is FREE! -=-    roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
  FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #37: Mon Jan 27 23:21:10 CET 1997

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb  1 03:50:33 1997
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To: rsnow@lgc.com
Subject: Re: Yes lives!
Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.chat
References: <> <Pine.SGI.3.95.970130083930.14022B-100000@dympna>
From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" <bkogawa@primenet.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, "David O'Brien" <deobrien@ucdavis.edu>
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In localhost.freebsd.chat you write:

>Yes, I know the -y switch all to well, unfortunately.  I was just reminded
>that once upon a time there wasn't a -y and we had to do things a bit
>different.  I was just wondering if there was actually any other use for
>yes.

Well, someone aliased my rm to rm -i, so...

yes | rm (blah)

was an option.

Of course, a better option is:

/bin/rm (blah)

or even better, to unalias rm 

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb  1 05:33:49 1997
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Subject: Re: What to do about the 2.0 GNU libc?
In-Reply-To: <199701262201.OAA08317@root.com> from David Greenman at "Jan 26, 97 02:01:12 pm"
To: dg@root.com
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 14:31:25 +0100 (MET)
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David Greenman writes:
>> I must appologize for my past posts to this mail list. I now see that
>> freebsd is the way it is for a reason. Also the handling of ppp
>> connections in linux and most other OS's really sucks. FreeBSD has the
>> best implimentation I have ever seen.
>>
>> I am curious about the up and comming GNU 2.0 libc. Since the BSD's have
>> their own libc will you be replacing yours with the GNU one? Not that I
>> like GNU to much (it seams to be becomming the Microsoft of the free
>> software world) but it would save a lot of developement time if you
>> didn't have to worry about your own library. Since this the GNU libc
>> will be used by Linux it would be hard to go wrong. FreeBSD would be
>> using the same libc are it's chief competitor. FreeBSD would then only
>> have the userland commands to deal with, since Linux of course has GNU
>> maintaining those. I hate GNU binutils.
>
>    No, the GNU libc is GPL'd which would cause distribution restrictions
> for everything that is linked with it. Unlike GNU, we actually encourage
> commercial re-use of FreeBSD code (in embedded systems, for example).

I was going to say "In fact, that's not correct.  glibc falls under
the GLGPL (The GNU Library General Public License)", but I've just
checked, and that doesn't seem to be the case.  Does anybody know if
this is intentional?

Note the followup to -chat.

Greg


From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb  1 05:51:19 1997
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From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: bkogawa@primenet.com (Bryan K. Ogawa)
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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As Bryan K. Ogawa wrote:

> Of course, a better option is:
> 
> /bin/rm (blah)
> 
> or even better, to unalias rm 

In csh, you can always use \rm.  Of course, that's the net effect of
those braindead aliases: you get used to type \rm all the time in
the end, defeating the entire idea of that alias.  This proves the
alias totally useless in the first place.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb  1 06:22:05 1997
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Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 13:54:35 +0100
From: Andreas Klemm <andreas@klemm.gtn.com>
Organization: Home
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Subject: The FVWM-95 home page
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------446B9B3D2781E494167EB0E7
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http://www.terraware.net/ftp/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95.html

Well, do you see the cool, it works for Linux Logo ?!

What about a 

	Of course
	it works with
	FreeBSD

Logo ?! Same Logo but "FreeBSD-red" background and a smiling
beasty on the left side ?

   ------------------
  / BB   Of course   \
  | BB it works with | <- small font
  \ BB    FreeBSD    /    The BB's are beastie of course
   ------------------

Someone who is good in drawing ?

	Andreas ///

-- 
andreas@klemm.gtn.com         /\/\___      Wiechers & Partner
Datentechnik GmbH
   Andreas Klemm          ___/\/\/         Support Unix --
andreas.klemm@wup.de
pgp p-key  http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html  >>> powered
by <<<
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz  >>>   
FreeBSD <<<

--------------446B9B3D2781E494167EB0E7
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	rs/FVWM95/fvwm95.html"

<BASE HREF="http://www.terraware.net/ftp/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95.html">

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>The FVWM-95 home page</title>
</HEAD>
<!--
<BODY background="bckgnd1.gif" BGCOLOR=#C0C0C0 TEXT=#000000 LINK=#0000FF VLINK=#0020F0 ALINK=#FF0000>
-->
<BODY bgcolor=ffffff TEXT=#000000 LINK=#0000FF VLINK=#0020F0 ALINK=#FF0000>
<IMG SRC="fvwm95.gif"><img src=mirror1.gif><br>

<HR>
<IMG SRC="/anim/conzone.gif"></A> <i><b> You already know what this means...!</b></i>
<HR>
<H2><i>What is FVWM-95 ?</i></H2>
<P>
Fvwm95 is a hack based on <A HREF="http://www.hpc.uh.edu/fvwm/">fvwm2.x</A>. It tries to emulate the good features of a well known product without bloating the regular fvwm code.
<P>
The main aspects are:
<UL>
<LI>A familiar look and feel. It can be interesting for users moving from the MS-World to Unix, or for those who have to switch regularly between the two. Or for those that simply would like to have the same MS look and feel in Unix, or for those that just want to have <i>another</i> window manager, or... But before all, it's meant to be useful, simple and efficient;<br>
<LI>Same flexible and easy configuration as the native fvwm;<br>
<LI>Functionality extensible via loadable modules;<br>
<LI>A <A HREF="http://ltiwww.epfl.ch/~barth/taskbar.html">taskbar</A>: find quickly an application window and don't take space with icon windows;
</UL>
In the future, we plan to have a desktop/folder metaphor supported by the window manager, as well as improve the current version. <A HREF="screenshot-folder.drag.gif">This</A> is the current status. We started rewriting the program in C++, and already have working menus, scrollbars, status bar and toolbar, directories can be browsed, but file operations are still missing. <A HREF="screenshot-explorer.gif">Here</A> is another screenshot showing the explorer windows.  The 
development is evolving towards the creation of a 
<a href=xclass.html>class library</a> containing an easily extensible set of
Win95-looking widgets, which should ease the development of new applications.<BR>
<P><P>Here are some pictures of it:
<UL>
<LI><A HREF="screenshot-full.gif">a full screen-shot of one of the latest versions</A>
<LI><A HREF="screenshot-decor.gif">a window with decorations</A>
<LI><A HREF="screenshot-start.gif">the taskbar showing the Start menu</A>
</UL>
<P>
Please note that fvwm-2.x is <I>work in progress</I>, so is fvwm95 too...
<P>
<HR><H2><i>What's new ?</i></H2>
<P>
This is the change log:
<P>
Fvwm95-2.0.42a:
<UL>
<LI>Incorporated the changes and new modules from fvwm-2.0.42<br>
<LI>The installation process now uses GNU autoconfigure (experimental). If case of troubles, a version of the package with the old Imake is still available.<br>
<LI>Configuration options added to the WindowList menu.<br>
<LI>Changes to the FvwmWinList module: now it uses mini-cons too, a new option added for showing the windows in the current desktop only.<br>
<LI>The maximize button now correctly reflects the window's maximized status.<br>
<LI>The name-matching algorithm for the Style command has changed the search priority, now is:<br>
<UL>
<b>Highest</b><br>
<UL>Resource name<br>
Class name<br>
Icon name<br>
Window title name<br>
</UL><b>Lowest</b><br>
</UL>
<LI>Usual taskbar updates: The button positioning routines now uses more efficiently the available space. AutoHide option added (experimental, use with care, as this option may conflict with EdgeScroll settings). Zoombie mail-reader processes are now properly trapped <i>(well, now they are trapped by fvwm </i><b>;-)</b><i> )</i>. Now the tip windows are shown only when the button text is truncated.<br>
<LI>Fvwm95 man pages updated.<br>
<LI>Some few new mini-icons.<br>
</UL>
Fvwm95-2.0.41f:
<UL>
<LI>WindowList built-in menu now shows the application mini-icons.<br>
<LI>More corrections to the MWM decoration stuff.<br>
<LI>Fvwm95 no more hangs when no startup file is present. Note that now by default the ClickToFocus mode is activated, and you have to specify explicitly <b>Style "*" MouseFocus</b> or <b>Style "*" SloppyFocus</b> to override it.<br>
<LI>The ButtonStyle command now allows to change the titlebar buttons.<br>
<LI>Taskbar enhancements: <A HREF="screenshot-tbpopup.gif">tip windows</A> added. A new option allows it to behave like the TVTWM Icon Manager. Also, double-clicking in the envelope icon lauches your preferred mail reader program. Plus some others... <i>see the man pages!</i><br>
</UL>
Fvwm95-2.0.41e:
<UL>
<LI>Better consistency of the MWM decoration hints handling and the decoration of the transient windows.<br>
<LI>Event and drawing code speedup. Also, the titlebar blink problem should have been eliminated now.<br>
<LI>NO-Warp to focus patch applied.<br>
<LI>Taskbar updates: new configuration options added. The Icon option was removed, as the taskbar now receives the titlebar icon pixmaps from fvwm.<br>
<LI>FvwmConfig removed from the distribution, because it does not work properly with fvwm95. In a future release we will include a reworked version.<br>
</UL>
Fvwm95-2.0.41d:
<UL>
<LI>Resize code improved, the rubber-band borders do not flip anymore when trying to resize to a size smaller than the minimal. Also corrects the problem that caused the window to jump when the move operation was invoked from the title bar menu.<br>
<LI>Added support for the left title-bar icon, instead of the "dash" button.<br>
<LI>Corrected a bug in the taskbar that caused to permanently stick to the top of the screen when it was dragged there, refusing to abandon that position.<br>
</UL>
Fvwm95-2.0.41c:
<UL>
<LI>The menu code has changed: the mouse warping in popup menus has been eliminated, and popup menus now appear at the left side of their parents if there is no more space at the right.<br>
<LI>A new version of the taskbar with support for pixmaps is included.<br>
</UL>
Fvwm95-2.0.41b:
<UL>
<LI>Some code cleanup, taskbar code improved, added the AutoStick and resize options.<br>
</UL>
Fvwm95-2.0.41a:
<UL>
<LI>Initial release of fvwm95, based on fvwm-2.0.41<br>
</UL>
<HR><H2><i>Where to get it ?</i></H2>
<P>
<UL>
<LI>You can ftp it from <A HREF="ftp://mitac11.uia.ac.be/pub">ftp://mitac11.uia.ac.be/pub</A>:<P>
<UL>
<A HREF="ftp://mitac11.uia.ac.be/pub/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz">fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz</A> - this is the last version using GNU autoconfigure.<br>
<A HREF="ftp://mitac11.uia.ac.be/pub/fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz">fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz</A> - the corresponding diff file relative to the previous version, if you prefer it.<P>
<A HREF="ftp://mitac11.uia.ac.be/pub/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz">fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz</A> - this is the same version with the old Imake.<br>
<A HREF="ftp://mitac11.uia.ac.be/pub/fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz">fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz</A> - the diff file.<br>
</UL>
<P>
<LI>Or, from this </A> mirror site in USA, thanks to <A HREF="http://www.terraware.net/terraware/local.html">TerraWare Systems</A> (this page is also mirrored <A HREF="http://www.terraware.net/ftp/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95.html">there</A>):<P>
<font color=ff0000>(To download/save them hold down [Shift] and [left click] on link)</font><p>
<UL>
<A HREF="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz">fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz</A> <font color=006699>(586K)</font><br>
<A HREF="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz">fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz</A> <font color=006699>(199K)</font><P>
<A HREF="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz">fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz</A> <font color=006699>(699K)</font><br>
<A HREF="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz">fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz</A> <font color=006699>(166K)</font><P>
Here are i386 binaries in RPM format for your Caldera or RedHat Linux system:<br>
<a href="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-2.0.41f-5.i386.rpm">
fvwm95-2.0.41f-3.i386.rpm</a> <font color=006699>(133K)</font><br>
<a href="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-icons-2.0.41f-5.i386.rpm">
fvwm95-icons-2.0.41f-3.i386.rpm</a> <font color=006699>(1.4K)</font><br>
<a href="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-mini-icons-2.0.41f-3.i386.rpm">
fvwm95-mini-icons-2.0.41f-3.i386.rpm</a> <font color=006699>(11.5K)</font><br>
<a href="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-modules-2.0.41f-3.i386.rpm">
fvwm95-modules-2.0.41f-3.i386.rpm</a> <font color=006699>(115K)</font><br>
<a href="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-utils-2.0.41f-3.i386.rpm">
fvwm95-utils-2.0.41f-3.i386.rpm</a> <font color=006699>(7.8K)</font><p>
The source for FVWM95 in RPM format:<br>
<a href="ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-2.0.41f-3.src.rpm">
fvwm95-2.0.41f-3.src.rpm</a> <font color=006699> (614K)</font><p>
Binaries for Linux AXP System in RPM format:<br>
<a href=ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-2.0.42a-5.axp.rpm>
fvwm95-2.0.42a-5.axp.rpm</a><font color=006699> (392K)</font><br>
<a href=ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-icons-2.0.42a-5.axp.rpm>fvwm95-icons-2.0.42a-5.axp.rpm</a><font color=006699> (157K)</font></p>
Binaries for your Linux Sparc System in RPM format:<br>
<a href=ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-2.0.42a-5.sparc.rpm>
fvwm95-2.0.42a05.sparc.rpm</a><font color=006699> (286K)</font><br>
<a href=ftp://ftp.terraware.net/pub/Mirrors/FVWM95/fvwm95-icons-2.0.42a-5.sparc.rpm> fvwm95-icons-2.0.42a-5.sparc.rpm</a><font color=006699> (160K)</font><p>
<p>
</UL>
<LI>Or, from this <IMG SRC="new.gif"></A> mirror site in Australia, thanks to <A HREF="http://www.medfac.unimelb.edu.au/staff/raul">Raul Sobon</A>:<P>
<UL>
<A HREF="http://www.medfac.unimelb.edu.au/staff/raul/bin/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz">fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz</A><P>
<A HREF="http://www.medfac.unimelb.edu.au/staff/raul/bin/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz">fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz</A><P>
</UL>
<LI><img src=new.gif> in the Czech Republic:<br>
<ul>
<a href=ftp://ekf2.vsb.cz/pub/linux/fvwm-95/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz>
fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz</a><br>
<a href=ftp://ekf2.vsb.cz/pub/linux/fvwm-95/fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz>fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz</a><br>
<a href=ftp://ekf2.vsb.cz/pub/linux/fvwm-95/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz>
fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz</a><br>
<a href=ftp://ekf2.vsb.cz/pub/linux/fvwm-95/
fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz>
fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz</a><p>
</ul>
<LI> <img src="new.gif"> in the UK:<BR>
<ul>
<a href=ftp://ftp.plig.org/pub/fvwm95/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz>
fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz</a><br>
<a href=ftp://ftp.plig.org/pub/fvwm95/fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz>fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz</a><br>
<a href=ftp://ftp.plig.org/pub/fvwm95/fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz>
fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz</a><br>
<a href=ftp://ftp.plig.org/pub/fvwm95/fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz>
fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz</a><p>
</ul>
<LI>I also have a copy on this site (press shift-Button1 with Netscape to download it):<P>
<UL>
<A HREF="fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz">fvwm95-2.0.42a-Autoconf.tgz</A><br>
<A HREF="fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz">fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Autoconf.diff.gz</A><P>
<A HREF="fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz">fvwm95-2.0.42a-Imake.tgz</A><br>
<A HREF="fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz">fvwm95-2.0.41f-to-2.0.42a-Imake.diff.gz</A><br>
</UL>
</UL>
<HR><H2><i>What YOU can do ?</i></H2>
<P>
<UL>
<LI>Give suggestions: we would be happy to read your comments and suggestions:<BR><P>
<UL>
<IMG SRC="mail.gif"></A> Mail <A HREF="mailto:peraza@mitac11.uia.ac.be">Hector Peraza</A> the main author of the fvwm hack.<br>
<IMG SRC="mail.gif"></A> Or <A HREF="mailto:barth@di.epfl.ch">David Barth</A> for remarks concerning the taskbar.
</UL><P>
<LI>Contribute !<BR>
If you have ideas you want to incorporate, feel free to hack it further...
</UL>
<P>
<HR>
<H2><i>Acknowledgements to</i></H2>
<A HREF="mailto:atrens@bnr.ca">Andrew (a.b.) Atrens</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:andreas@knobel.gun.de">Andreas Klemm</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:Al_Dev_at_houpgpo@candle.com">Al Dev</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:bjames@galileo.mis.net">Barry L. James</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:bwelling@Glue.umd.edu">Brian Wellington</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:dg@dcs.st-and.ac.uk">David Given</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:dmahurin@donet.com">Don Mahurin</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:georg.hager@btp3x3.phy.uni-bayreuth.de">Georg Hager</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:gandt@pandora.dorm.umd.edu">Greg Seidman</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:mctague@mctague.mv.com">Henry R. McTague</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:jake@bam.nuri.net">Jake Lee</A>,
<A HREF="http://ixtas.fri.uni-lj.si/~markom/fvwm">Marko Macek</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:kazda@infomine.net">Michael A. Kazda</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:ol@niif.ru">Oleg Girko</A>,
<A HREF="http://www.medfac.unimelb.edu.au/staff/raul">Raul Sobon</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:rlr@atl.hp.com">Ricky Ralston</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:mitnits@shani.net">Roman Mtinitski</A>,
<A HREF="mailto:roadcapw@cfw.com">William E. Roadcap</A>,
and to everybody who sent bug reports, comments and suggestions.
<P>
<b>Many thanks</b> to all the Fvwm team, and to Mr. Rob Nation who started to code a nice wm.
<P>
<HR>
<img src=/gifs/cool1.gif>
<img src=/jpgs/diglinx.jpg>
<P>
Back to the <a href=/>TerraWare Systems</A> home page.
<P>
<FONT SIZE=-1>Page last updated: Oct 8, 1996.</FONT>


--------------446B9B3D2781E494167EB0E7--


From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb  1 14:54:48 1997
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Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:54:39 -0500
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To: scrappy@hub.org
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In-reply-to: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970131173151.1733F-100000@thelab.hub.org> (message
	from The Hermit Hacker on Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:32:13 -0400 (AST))
Subject: Re: devil (fwd)
From: Joel Ray Holveck <joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
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 > The following is a true story.
 > <snip>
 > Texas.  What a country.

After I clear away my tears of amusement at your story, allow me to
point out that I have had ample opportunity to examine ill-founded
prejudice all over the world, and it's the same everywhere.  The
Texans in your story do add a certain comic relief, though.

Were either of these, I just have to ask, perchance named "Bubba"?

-- 
http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu
All my opinions are my own, not the FSF's, my employer's, or my dog's.

The Free Software Foundation is holding the second free software
conference in San Francisco on February 20-21.  For more info, see
http://www.gnu.ai.mit.edu/conferences/97san-fran/announcement.html
or write to conf97@gnu.ai.mit.edu.

From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb  1 15:05:25 1997
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Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:05:05 -0400 (AST)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: Joel Ray Holveck <joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: devil (fwd)
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On Sat, 1 Feb 1997, Joel Ray Holveck wrote:

> 
> After I clear away my tears of amusement at your story, allow me to
> point out that I have had ample opportunity to examine ill-founded
> prejudice all over the world, and it's the same everywhere.  The
> Texans in your story do add a certain comic relief, though.
> 
> Were either of these, I just have to ask, perchance named "Bubba"?
>
	*shrug* This was forwarded to me from a friend :)