From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 01:21:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA09995 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA09990 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA12705; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:21:26 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA25600; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:20:39 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:20:39 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good name for a dump(8) option? References: <199702020117.LAA15124@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199702020117.LAA15124@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Feb 2, 1997 11:47:34 +1030 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to -chat) As Michael Smith wrote: > > > Even _I_ turned mine into a stereo rack over a year ago, ... > > > > Abuse!!! :-)) > > I couldn't find anyone who could sell me the little BOM labels, so I > couldn't set up any of the fresh tapes I had, and all the old ones > were toast. I remember that simple aluminum adhesive tape used to do this task for us back some 10 years ago, when we had to handle 800 bpi r-t-r tapes on our PDP-11 clone. Worked well. :-)) > Then I had to give back the SCSI/9-track adapter I had, > and about all that was left useful was the 4mm steel-plate chassis. > Waste not, want not, and you should see the price of a decent stereo > cabinet these days, outrageous! 8) Hehe. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 05:01:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA17292 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 05:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA17283 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 05:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id XAA17724; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:31:05 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702021301.XAA17724@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Good name for a dump(8) option? In-Reply-To: from J Wunsch at "Feb 2, 97 10:20:39 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:31:04 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > > > > I couldn't find anyone who could sell me the little BOM labels, so I > > couldn't set up any of the fresh tapes I had, and all the old ones > > were toast. > > I remember that simple aluminum adhesive tape used to do this task for > us back some 10 years ago, when we had to handle 800 bpi r-t-r tapes > on our PDP-11 clone. Worked well. :-)) I tried that, but all I had was Al panel repair tape. Probably an unknown in the USA, where SOP for panel repair involves punching holes in the panelwork and laying on the bog like plaster. Dunno about German panel repairs; never worked on an ex-euro set of wheels. It peeled and scored the tape around it. Drat. > cheers, J"org -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 06:20:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA19395 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 06:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA19390 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 06:20:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA19073; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:20:37 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id PAA26529; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:05:40 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:05:40 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Good name for a dump(8) option? References: <199702021301.XAA17724@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199702021301.XAA17724@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Feb 2, 1997 23:31:04 +1030 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > > I remember that simple aluminum adhesive tape used to do this task for > > us back some 10 years ago, when we had to handle 800 bpi r-t-r tapes > > on our PDP-11 clone. Worked well. :-)) > > I tried that, but all I had was Al panel repair tape. > It peeled and scored the tape around it. Drat. The era i've been talking about was way back in GDR times. I don't know exactly which kind of tape this has been, i think it's been intended as some decorative artwork tape, and has also been available in various colors (as plastic tape), besides of the Al version. We've been recycling a huge amount of old data tapes with this, by cutting off the exposed first 10 or 20 meters, and renewing the BOT label. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 14:44:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18987 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:44:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from tfs.com (tfs.com [140.145.250.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18982 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from schizo.dk.tfs.com by tfs.com (smail3.1.28.1) with SMTP id m0vrAe1-0003viC; Sun, 2 Feb 97 14:44 PST Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter-home [193.162.32.19]) by schizo.dk.tfs.com (8.8.2/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA00713 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:44:14 +0100 (MET) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id XAA05735 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:46:03 +0100 (MET) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: CTM gets to 3000 on its 3year aniversary :-) Reply-to: phk@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 23:46:02 +0100 Message-ID: <5733.854923562@critter.dk.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It's 3 years to the date since that the first semi-successfull implementation of CTM started sending mediocre precision emails to my computer. It's 2 1/3 year ago that the current model of CTM was first run and distributed to a select handfull of testers. Sometime in the next couple of hours we will see cvs-cur.3000.gz be generated. When I started on CTM, only a few of the freebsd hackers had TCP/IP connectivity and Jordan paid a fortune for it over in Ireland. Today everybody and his mother has IP connectivity, but there seem to be a market for batched and emailed updates still, although interest is measurably dwindling. How's that for a success :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 16:49:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26366 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26360; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id LAA00335; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:19:12 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702030049.LAA00335@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: CTM gets to 3000 on its 3year aniversary :-) In-Reply-To: <5733.854923562@critter.dk.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Feb 2, 97 11:46:02 pm" To: phk@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:19:10 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp stands accused of saying: > > Sometime in the next couple of hours we will see cvs-cur.3000.gz > be generated. > > When I started on CTM, only a few of the freebsd hackers had TCP/IP > connectivity and Jordan paid a fortune for it over in Ireland. > > Today everybody and his mother has IP connectivity, but there seem > to be a market for batched and emailed updates still, although > interest is measurably dwindling. > > How's that for a success :-) This sounds a lot like baby-envy, Poul. Not getting enough nappy-time? (congrats on both 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 2 16:52:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26620 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA26614 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA13423 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:52:21 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA10239; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:35:22 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:35:21 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CTM gets to 3000 on its 3year aniversary :-) References: <5733.854923562@critter.dk.tfs.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <5733.854923562@critter.dk.tfs.com>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Feb 2, 1997 23:46:02 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > Today everybody and his mother has IP connectivity, but there seem > to be a market for batched and emailed updates still, although > interest is measurably dwindling. > > How's that for a success :-) It's really great! The only reason that makes me thinking about a switch to CVSup even for my home machine (that's still only modem-dialup) is that the tree update latency of CTM is sometimes annoying, in particular for things like this day's releng work... but i really learnt to love the batched email processing. It has been the most important piece in the puzzle to allow for a continuous CVS tree mirroring for me. Happy birthday! :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 18:09:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08280 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08268 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:09:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id MAA09052 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:38:55 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702040208.MAA09052@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Wradar! To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:38:54 +1030 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If you're interested (at all) in the applications to which FreeBSD systems are being put, have a look around http://www.irf.se/mst/EsrangeMST.html. The radar system itself is run by a FreeBSD box, with another acting as the control console. Data analysis is performed on the radar controller; it's currently generating and processing about 700MB of data per day. The 'what the radar is seeing now' plot is generated offsite using IRF's code and ghostscript on some other system, but derived fom the analysed data. All the other plots are from our suite running under IDL on the BSD box. The horrible vertical noise bands in the data are a hardware glitch in the radar chassis. Not my fault 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 3 18:50:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA10871 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10866 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA23325; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:50:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702040250.SAA23325@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wradar! In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Feb 1997 12:38:54 +1030." <199702040208.MAA09052@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 18:50:06 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Very, Very impressive !!! Congrats! Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 10:10:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02131 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns.pinpt.com (dns.pinpt.com [205.179.195.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02098; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from journeyman (gatemaster.pinpt.com [205.179.195.65]) by dns.pinpt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA28497; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:09:36 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 10:08:18 Pacific Standard Time From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Subject: Z-Mail & FreeBSD To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Chameleon ATX 6.0, Standards Based IntraNet Solutions, NetManage Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there anyone out there in the FreeBSD world using Z-Mail? If you are which version for which platform are you using? I tried to get the SCO version for demo but ran into problems getting it to run and have not had time to play with it. -Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean J. Schluntz Manager, Support Services ph. 408.997.6900 x222 PinPoint Software Corporation fx. 408.323.2300 6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 San Jose, CA. 95120 http://www.pinpt.com/ Local Time Sent: 02/04/97 10:08:18 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:29:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06769 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06749; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA27435; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:28:44 -0800 (PST) To: "Sean J. Schluntz" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:08:18 EST." Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:28:43 -0800 Message-ID: <27431.855084523@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is there anyone out there in the FreeBSD world using Z-Mail? If you are whic h > version for which platform are you using? There was a FreeBSD port done, which I've tested, but I'm not sure who owns Z-mail now and the whole thing has sort of vanished into limbo. :-( If we could figure out who has it now, maybe we could approach the owners into letting the FreeBSD version out as a promo.. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 11:33:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07061 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:33:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07056 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA28784; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:33:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:33:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199702041933.MAA28784@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Adam David Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail In-Reply-To: <199702041941.TAA11400@veda.is> References: <199702041559.IAA27474@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199702041941.TAA11400@veda.is> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ moved to chat, as we're now discussing religion ] > > > for(...) > > > ; > > > > > > where it otherwise is very easy to miss the ; > > > > Then do this: > > > > for(...) > > continue; > > > > Much more obvious what you are doing. > > I beg to disagree. The previous example is far clearer, since the empty > statement stands out as empty rather than being a coincidental noop. The empty statement stands out like a mistake IMHO. > Use > of 'continue' in this context suggests that a line was deleted or has yet > to be inserted. I say the exact opposite. The continue line implies to me that it's intentional, vs. the other way. > Of course, style also favours inserting a space before the parenthesis. True, but in this manner everyone I've spoken with tends to prefer the former over the latter (continue vs. empty semi-colon). Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 12:24:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09891 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09886 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA21489 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:24:34 +0100 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id VAA20355 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:24:12 +0100 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id TAA03519; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:54:24 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19970204195424.UC58548@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 19:54:24 +0100 From: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60,1-3,9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#2999 In-Reply-To: ; from Sean J. Schluntz on Feb 4, 1997 10:08:18 +0000 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Sean J. Schluntz: > Is there anyone out there in the FreeBSD world using Z-Mail? If you are > which version for which platform are you using? A guy from NCD told that he was trying to make them release a FreeBSD version (I offered to test it) but since they've been bought by Netmanage, I've not heard something. The fact that Netmanage is more Winlose-based than anything has probably something to do with that :-( -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #39: Sun Feb 2 22:12:44 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 12:49:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA11030 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:49:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns.pinpt.com (dns.pinpt.com [205.179.195.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA11008; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:49:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from journeyman (gatemaster.pinpt.com [205.179.195.65]) by dns.pinpt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA29676; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:48:36 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 12:40:25 Pacific Standard Time From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Chameleon ATX 6.0, Standards Based IntraNet Solutions, NetManage Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <27431.855084523@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Is there anyone out there in the FreeBSD world using Z-Mail? If you are whic > h > > version for which platform are you using? > > There was a FreeBSD port done, which I've tested, but I'm not sure who > owns Z-mail now and the whole thing has sort of vanished into > limbo. :-( If we could figure out who has it now, maybe we could > approach the owners into letting the FreeBSD version out as a promo.. NetManage now owns ZMail, and they do not have a FreeBSD version on their FTP site, I also got the flyer so here are the version they currently support: DEC Alpha OSF/1 DEC MIPS Ultrix HP Apollo Domain HP 9000 IBM RS/6000 Interactive MIPS Motorola Pyramid (Do people still use those?!?) Sequent SGI Sun Solaris/Spark & Intel Sun SunOS UnixWare SVR4.2 80486 NCR 3300 SVR4.0 80386 SCO ODT 3.2 I don't know about the other versions but the SCO version can be run in text and GUI mode. You can contact NetManage, Inc. at 408-973-7171, or I can if you would like. -Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean J. Schluntz Manager, Support Services ph. 408.997.6900 x222 PinPoint Software Corporation fx. 408.323.2300 6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 San Jose, CA. 95120 http://www.pinpt.com/ Local Time Sent: 02/04/97 12:40:26 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13:03:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11968 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:03:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns.pinpt.com (dns.pinpt.com [205.179.195.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA11954 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from journeyman (gatemaster.pinpt.com [205.179.195.65]) by dns.pinpt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA29777; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:02:23 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 13:01:12 Pacific Standard Time From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Ollivier Robert X-Mailer: Chameleon ATX 6.0, Standards Based IntraNet Solutions, NetManage Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19970204195424.UC58548@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > According to Sean J. Schluntz: > > Is there anyone out there in the FreeBSD world using Z-Mail? If you are > > which version for which platform are you using? > > A guy from NCD told that he was trying to make them release a FreeBSD > version (I offered to test it) but since they've been bought by Netmanage, > I've not heard something. The fact that Netmanage is more Winlose-based > than anything has probably something to do with that :-( I went ahead and called NetManage and went through a bunch of hoops (No one know who I should talk to.) Finally I got to someone that at least knew what I was talking about and took my name, number and eMail address and promised a response within a week. Now to see if I actually get a response. -Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean J. Schluntz Manager, Support Services ph. 408.997.6900 x222 PinPoint Software Corporation fx. 408.323.2300 6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 San Jose, CA. 95120 http://www.pinpt.com/ Local Time Sent: 02/04/97 13:01:12 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13:03:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11977 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11956 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28150; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:03:10 -0800 (PST) To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Feb 1997 19:54:24 +0100." <19970204195424.UC58548@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:03:09 -0800 Message-ID: <28146.855090189@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm calling them now. I'll let you know if anything comes of it. Jordan > According to Sean J. Schluntz: > > Is there anyone out there in the FreeBSD world using Z-Mail? If you are > > which version for which platform are you using? > > A guy from NCD told that he was trying to make them release a FreeBSD > version (I offered to test it) but since they've been bought by Netmanage, > I've not heard something. The fact that Netmanage is more Winlose-based > than anything has probably something to do with that :-( > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- The daemon is FREE! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #39: Sun Feb 2 22:12:44 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13:14:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12781 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nevis.oss.uswest.net (nevis.oss.uswest.net [204.147.85.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12769 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from greg@localhost) by nevis.oss.uswest.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) id PAA12454; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:12:54 -0600 (CST) From: "Greg Rowe" Message-Id: <9702041512.ZM12452@nevis.oss.uswest.net> Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:12:54 -0600 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD" (Feb 4, 11:28am) References: <27431.855084523@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Sean J. Schluntz" Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Netmanage now owns Z-Mail and they don't seem interested in doing a FreeBSD port. However, the SCO version runs fine under 2.2 SNAP's and BETA using IBCS (It didn't work under 2.1.5 and I never tried 2.1.6) We have a number of licenses and haven't had any problems. Greg On Feb 4, 11:28am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD > > Is there anyone out there in the FreeBSD world using Z-Mail? If you are whic > h > > version for which platform are you using? > > There was a FreeBSD port done, which I've tested, but I'm not sure who > owns Z-mail now and the whole thing has sort of vanished into > limbo. :-( If we could figure out who has it now, maybe we could > approach the owners into letting the FreeBSD version out as a promo.. > > Jordan >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard -- Greg Rowe | U S West - Interact Services | INTERNET greg@uswest.net 111 Washington Ave. South | Fax: (612) 672-8537 Minneapolis, MN USA 55401 | Voice: (612) 672-8535 Never trust an operating system you don't have source for.... From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13:22:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13368 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns.pinpt.com (dns.pinpt.com [205.179.195.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA13363 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from journeyman (gatemaster.pinpt.com [205.179.195.65]) by dns.pinpt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA29919; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:21:46 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 13:19:15 Pacific Standard Time From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Greg Rowe Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Chameleon ATX 6.0, Standards Based IntraNet Solutions, NetManage Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <9702041512.ZM12452@nevis.oss.uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Netmanage now owns Z-Mail and they don't seem interested in doing a FreeBSD > port. However, the SCO version runs fine under 2.2 SNAP's and BETA using IBCS > (It didn't work under 2.1.5 and I never tried 2.1.6) We have a number of > licenses and haven't had any problems. I'm glad to know that the SCO version works under 2.2 (2.1.5 is what I tried to run it under here, but 2.2 is what I'm going to use it with.) I'm going to poke at them anyways, see if they are interested in releasing a FBSD or BSDi version. One thing I was able to get from their techs is that the mail directories are compatible with the ZMailPro for Win95/NT so you can NFS mount (or just mount) a dos partition with the mail folders from your Win copy and use them with your Unix copy. (Useful for those of us who have to dual boot.) -Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean J. Schluntz Manager, Support Services ph. 408.997.6900 x222 PinPoint Software Corporation fx. 408.323.2300 6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 San Jose, CA. 95120 http://www.pinpt.com/ Local Time Sent: 02/04/97 13:19:16 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13:24:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13463 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13442; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:24:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA28226; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:24:17 -0800 (PST) To: "Sean J. Schluntz" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Feb 1997 12:40:25 EST." Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:24:17 -0800 Message-ID: <28222.855091457@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > NetManage now owns ZMail, and they do not have a FreeBSD version on their FTP > site, I also got the flyer so here are the version they currently support: Well, I just talked to the UNIX product manager and gave him my pitch for resurrecting the existing inheirited-from-NCD port of Zmail to FreeBSD. They're not wildly enthusiastic about adding Yet Another platform to their list of responsibilities, but they're intrigued by the idea of doing a purely promotional thing with FreeBSD as a "use at your own risk" kinda thing. We'll see where it goes. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13:28:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13637 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:28:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13632; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bitch.Melmac.org (ulf@Bitch.Melmac.org [207.90.181.42]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.5/20.74.3.14) with ESMTP id NAA06383; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by bitch.Melmac.org (8.8.5/8.7.6) id NAA09390; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:28:27 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199702042128.NAA09390@bitch.Melmac.org> Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <27431.855084523@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Feb 4, 97 11:28:43 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:28:26 -0800 (PST) Cc: schluntz@pinpt.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Is there anyone out there in the FreeBSD world using Z-Mail? If you are whic > h > > version for which platform are you using? > > There was a FreeBSD port done, which I've tested, but I'm not sure who > owns Z-mail now and the whole thing has sort of vanished into > limbo. :-( If we could figure out who has it now, maybe we could > approach the owners into letting the FreeBSD version out as a promo.. > > Jordan > Ok. Z-mail is now owned by Netmanage. They only took over 3 people from Z-code. I tried to get in touch with them regarding a source license. No answer. Netmanage is "further devloping" the Unix versions, but on a lower number of platforms. I haven't seen anything about this yet. There was no BSD/OS or FreeBSD port, as Z-Code got to Netmanage, and I doubt they have done one so far. I personaly have a port, but this is not official. And as I never got any answer back from them about a source license..... Ulf. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 13:40:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14234 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14227 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:40:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from bitch.Melmac.org (ulf@Bitch.Melmac.org [207.90.181.42]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.5/20.74.3.14) with ESMTP id NAA06425; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ulf@localhost) by bitch.Melmac.org (8.8.5/8.7.6) id NAA09443; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:40:21 -0800 (PST) From: Ulf Zimmermann Message-Id: <199702042140.NAA09443@bitch.Melmac.org> Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD In-Reply-To: from "Sean J. Schluntz" at "Feb 4, 97 01:01:12 pm" To: schluntz@pinpt.com (Sean J. Schluntz) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:40:21 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > According to Sean J. Schluntz: > > > Is there anyone out there in the FreeBSD world using Z-Mail? If you are > > > which version for which platform are you using? > > > > A guy from NCD told that he was trying to make them release a FreeBSD > > version (I offered to test it) but since they've been bought by Netmanage, > > I've not heard something. The fact that Netmanage is more Winlose-based > > than anything has probably something to do with that :-( > > I went ahead and called NetManage and went through a bunch of hoops (No one > know who I should talk to.) Finally I got to someone that at least knew what > I was talking about and took my name, number and eMail address and promised a > response within a week. > > Now to see if I actually get a response. > > -Sean > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sean J. Schluntz > Manager, Support Services ph. 408.997.6900 x222 > PinPoint Software Corporation fx. 408.323.2300 > 6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 > San Jose, CA. 95120 http://www.pinpt.com/ > > Local Time Sent: 02/04/97 13:01:12 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Who was that person ? Scott ... ? Ulf. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 14:19:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17375 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns.pinpt.com (dns.pinpt.com [205.179.195.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17351; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:19:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from journeyman (gatemaster.pinpt.com [205.179.195.65]) by dns.pinpt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA00511; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:18:21 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 14:18:17 Pacific Standard Time From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Chameleon ATX 6.0, Standards Based IntraNet Solutions, NetManage Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <28222.855091457@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > NetManage now owns ZMail, and they do not have a FreeBSD version on their FTP > > > site, I also got the flyer so here are the version they currently support: > > Well, I just talked to the UNIX product manager and gave him my pitch > for resurrecting the existing inheirited-from-NCD port of Zmail to > FreeBSD. They're not wildly enthusiastic about adding Yet Another > platform to their list of responsibilities, but they're intrigued by > the idea of doing a purely promotional thing with FreeBSD as a "use at > your own risk" kinda thing. We'll see where it goes. Hay, I would be willing to use it! I hope something happens, nothing else if we get a couple of requests in there they might be willing to do it. -Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean J. Schluntz Manager, Support Services ph. 408.997.6900 x222 PinPoint Software Corporation fx. 408.323.2300 6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 San Jose, CA. 95120 http://www.pinpt.com/ Local Time Sent: 02/04/97 14:18:17 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 14:20:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17581 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17550 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA21162; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:20:13 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id VAA28893; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:09:00 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:08:59 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, eivind@dimaga.com Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail References: <199702041418.BAA23803@godzilla.zeta.org.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199702041418.BAA23803@godzilla.zeta.org.au>; from Bruce Evans on Feb 5, 1997 01:18:42 +1100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > You'll get lots of whitespace changes at the beginning, since there are > few on no sources in the system formatted in a consistent style. You get exactly none, unless somebody really edited something. But if he edited it, it was changed anyway, most likely more than just whitespace. Bruce, you're only proving that you've never used emacs. :-) This is really something *very* different than running indent(1) over an entire file: it will absolutely only affect that piece of code the developer was just changing/adding right away, and nothing else (unless he stupidly changed an entire file by forcing reindentation, but that's similar to stupidly running the file through indent(1) first -- it requires intention, and won't happen incidentally). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 14:22:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17707 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns.pinpt.com (dns.pinpt.com [205.179.195.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17696 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:22:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from journeyman (gatemaster.pinpt.com [205.179.195.65]) by dns.pinpt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA00544; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:21:23 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 14:21:14 Pacific Standard Time From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD To: Ulf Zimmermann Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, roberto@keltia.freenix.fr X-Mailer: Chameleon ATX 6.0, Standards Based IntraNet Solutions, NetManage Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199702042140.NAA09443@bitch.Melmac.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I went ahead and called NetManage and went through a bunch of hoops (No one > > know who I should talk to.) Finally I got to someone that at least knew what > > I was talking about and took my name, number and eMail address and promised a > > response within a week. > > > > Now to see if I actually get a response. > > Who was that person ? Scott ... ? Of course I forgot to get the persons name... :( -Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean J. Schluntz Manager, Support Services ph. 408.997.6900 x222 PinPoint Software Corporation fx. 408.323.2300 6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 San Jose, CA. 95120 http://www.pinpt.com/ Local Time Sent: 02/04/97 14:21:15 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 14:29:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18379 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18369 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA21475 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:29:38 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id UAA28864; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:58:43 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:58:43 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail References: <3.0.32.19970204121616.00ba8e30@dimaga.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970204121616.00ba8e30@dimaga.com>; from Eivind Eklund on Feb 4, 1997 12:16:17 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Eivind Eklund wrote: > >> or at least > >> if ( bar && (foo = *bar)) > >> > >> (as opposed to: > >> if ( bar && foo = *bar) > >> > >> in complicated conditionals. > > > >That's actually a _really_ bad example, as it only makes sense with > >guaranteed left-to-right evaluation 8) > > ... which is quite all right, as ANSI guarantee left-to-right evaluation > for "&&", "||", "," and "?:" (the conditional is evaluated before the > result - weird, uh? ;) Except, the latter of the both is of course wrong. :-) j@uriah 130% cat foo.c int mumble(void) { int foo; char *bar; if (bar && foo = *foo) { return 1; } return 0; } j@uriah 131% cc -c foo.c foo.c: In function `mumble': foo.c:7: invalid type argument of `unary *' SEE ALSO /usr/share/misc/operators :-) (The assignment has less priority than the &&, hence that statement tried to assign something to the expression ``bar && foo''.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 14:29:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18411 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18378 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA21490; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:29:44 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id VAA28877; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:03:55 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:03:55 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Cc: eivind@dimaga.com (Eivind Eklund) Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail References: <3.0.32.19970204130357.00b7fa50@dimaga.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970204130357.00b7fa50@dimaga.com>; from Eivind Eklund on Feb 4, 1997 13:03:58 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Eivind Eklund wrote: > How about adding control code for emacs to directories as one edits them? > cc-mode can use almost any style, and it is reasonably simple to add a > control system to keep the style in eg a single directory. I wouldn't be opposed to it, and judging from the numerous other followups ``then just use an editor that shows you the indentation level'', i'm merely tempted to assume there are more of us... :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 4 16:08:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25949 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA25882; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:07:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA13528; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:05:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199702050005.RAA13528@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: g++, STL and -frepo on FreeBSD-2.2-Beta To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:05:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: jmacd@CS.Berkeley.EDU, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199702041516.KAA08583@chai.plexuscom.com> from "Bakul Shah" at Feb 4, 97 10:16:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Since Terry responded to something I had posted, I feel obliged to > respond. > > His use of `clearly' made his erroneous response a bit amusing so I > didn't mind it at all! Terry made a mistake. Big deal. We all do > (like my mixing up his response with someone else's). Urg. As always, if it can be proven to my satisfaction that I have actually made a mistake, I will post a retraction; now you have me wondering, since you are generally reliable as a sanity-check... 8-(. Are you saying that there is a condition in which the linker will not be able to find a symbol that is really there? I was under the impression that if the template declaration was in scope, the function implementation would be instanced in scope: "C++ Primer Plus, Second Edition" Stephan Prata _Waite Group Press_ ISBN 1-878739-74-3 Pg. 580 Templates provide _parameterized types_, that is, the capability of passing a type name as an argument to an algorithm for building a class or a function. By feeding the type name _int_ into a queue template, for example, you can get the compiler to construct a queue class for queueing _int_s. Note: ..."get _the compiler_ to construct a queue class"... Pg. 581 When a template is invoked, _Type_ will be replaced with a specific type value, such as _int_ or _String_. I was under the impression that "invocation" was not possible at runtime. If it were possible (it is, in theory, if you pass around void instances of the object and explicity invoke the copy constructors, etc., of the base type), it would require a working RTTI implementation, IMO, as well as the cooperation of the linker, aw well as compiler cooperation in treating a template definition as a two pass declaration, since RTTI only works for classes with pure virtual functions. The compiler would have to implictly provide it's own abstract interface type. Pg. 582 Because the templates aren't functions, they can't be compiled seperately. Templates have to be used in conjunction with requets for particular instantiations of templates. The simplest way to make this work is to place all of the template information in a header file and to include the header file in the file that will use the templates. Which would, of course, cause the template definition to be in scope at the time the instantiation occurs, causing (in the base case) an _actualization_ (also Pg. 582) of the template to be created in scope at compile time. Now unless the compiler is performing some form of "Type" magic, where it converts references to pointers and provides a stub class for you, and casts to void for a singe instantiation of a given template class, I don't think I've made a mistake. If it is, tell me, and I will admit the mistake. Then I will point out that this probably requires the cooperation of the linker, and that the FreeBSD a.out linker is not being (very) actively maintained... and, as was pointed out, it works with John Polstra's "ELFKit"... consider upgrading. Otherwise, it's unreasonable to expect the "magic" to work elsewhere, so it's poor style, no matter how you cut it. > The bad news is that it segfaults on even simple Verilog > module definitions. So for now this mini project has been ^Z'ed > (put on hold). Thanks to all the people who responded with helpful > hints (even if wrong:-). I have been implementing COM and DCOM objects using pure abstract virtual base classes for interface definitions, using the FreeBSD g++ compiler in -current. If you could give a code fragment which triggers the error, I might be able to help out. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 00:27:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA15724 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from superior.truenorth.org (ppp018-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA15677; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.truenorth.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA16785; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:27:23 -0800 (PST) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199702050827.AAA16785@superior.truenorth.org> Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <28222.855091457@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Feb 4, 97 01:24:17 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:27:22 -0800 (PST) Cc: schluntz@pinpt.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> NetManage now owns ZMail, and they do not have a FreeBSD version on their FTP > >> site, I also got the flyer so here are the version they currently support: > >Well, I just talked to the UNIX product manager and gave him my pitch >for resurrecting the existing inheirited-from-NCD port of Zmail to >FreeBSD. They're not wildly enthusiastic about adding Yet Another >platform to their list of responsibilities, but they're intrigued by >the idea of doing a purely promotional thing with FreeBSD as a "use at >your own risk" kinda thing. We'll see where it goes. > > Jordan > How much would a copy of Zmail go for ? Would it be helpful if a number of us started sending email to NetManage offering to throw green pieces of paper at them for a copy of Zmail ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Laugh while you can, monkey boy ! | FreeBSD 2.1.6 jgrosch@sirius.com | - John Warfin - | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 00:58:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA23678 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from DNS.Lamb.net (root@DNS.Lamb.net [207.90.181.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA23640; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from PacBell.TelcoSucks.org (ulf@PacBell.TelcoSucks.org [207.90.181.5]) by DNS.Lamb.net (8.8.5/20.74.3.14) with SMTP id AAA08231; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:58:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970205010036.00bfc630@Gatekeeper-3.Lamb.net> X-Sender: ulf@Gatekeeper-3.Lamb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 01:00:37 -0800 To: jgrosch@sirius.com From: Ulf Zimmermann Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 12:27 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >>> NetManage now owns ZMail, and they do not have a FreeBSD version on their FTP >> >>> site, I also got the flyer so here are the version they currently support: >> >>Well, I just talked to the UNIX product manager and gave him my pitch >>for resurrecting the existing inheirited-from-NCD port of Zmail to >>FreeBSD. They're not wildly enthusiastic about adding Yet Another >>platform to their list of responsibilities, but they're intrigued by >>the idea of doing a purely promotional thing with FreeBSD as a "use at >>your own risk" kinda thing. We'll see where it goes. >> >> Jordan >> > > >How much would a copy of Zmail go for ? Would it be helpful if a number of >us started sending email to NetManage offering to throw green pieces of >paper at them for a copy of Zmail ;-) > > At the moment, I would not throw green pieces at them, they might want them. I worked at Z-Code for 7 months and I tried to get a source license, so I could make a free version for FreeBSD. This work was kind of destroyed, as Z-Code was sold to Netmanage. We are now trying to make the same deal with Netmanage. Ulf. ----------------------------------------------------------- Alameda Networks, Inc. | Ulf Zimmermann (ulf@Alameda.net) 1525 Pacific Avenue | Phone: (510)769-2936 Alameda, CA 94501 | Fax : (510)521-5073 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 05:50:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA15422 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from superior.truenorth.org (ppp012-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA15406; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:50:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.truenorth.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA17604; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:50:01 -0800 (PST) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199702051350.FAA17604@superior.truenorth.org> Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970205010036.00bfc630@Gatekeeper-3.Lamb.net> from Ulf Zimmermann at "Feb 5, 97 01:00:37 am" To: ulf@Alameda.net (Ulf Zimmermann) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:50:00 -0800 (PST) Cc: jgrosch@sirius.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >At 12:27 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >>>> NetManage now owns ZMail, and they do not have a FreeBSD version on >their FTP >>> >>>> site, I also got the flyer so here are the version they currently support: >>> >>>Well, I just talked to the UNIX product manager and gave him my pitch >>>for resurrecting the existing inheirited-from-NCD port of Zmail to >>>FreeBSD. They're not wildly enthusiastic about adding Yet Another >>>platform to their list of responsibilities, but they're intrigued by >>>the idea of doing a purely promotional thing with FreeBSD as a "use at >>>your own risk" kinda thing. We'll see where it goes. >>> [ TRIM ] >> >>How much would a copy of Zmail go for ? Would it be helpful if a number of >>us started sending email to NetManage offering to throw green pieces of >>paper at them for a copy of Zmail ;-) >> >> > >At the moment, I would not throw green pieces at them, they might want >them. I worked at Z-Code for 7 months and I tried to get a source license, >so I could make a free version for FreeBSD. This work was kind of >destroyed, as Z-Code was sold to Netmanage. We are now trying to make the >same deal with Netmanage. > [ TRIM ] A free version of Zmail for FreeBSD would be nice but a paid for, supported version would, IMHO, help FreeBSD more. There are many companys that I consulted at in Chicago that use Zmail as their corporate standard. Motorola just loves Zmail. At most of these companys when ever I would bring up the subject of FreeBSD the management would always ask if Zmail runs on it. Just my $0.02. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Laugh while you can, monkey boy ! | FreeBSD 2.1.6 jgrosch@sirius.com | - John Warfin - | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 07:13:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA22666 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:13:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22615 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id IAA08885; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:16:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:16:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199702051516.IAA08885@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Nate Williams CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail In-Reply-To: <199702041933.MAA28784@rocky.mt.sri.com> References: <199702041559.IAA27474@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199702041941.TAA11400@veda.is> <199702041933.MAA28784@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams writes: > [ moved to chat, as we're now discussing religion ] As apprpriate! ;^) Nate was arguing with somebody about: for(...) ; vs. for(...) continue; % I beg to disagree. The previous example is far clearer, since the empty % statement stands out as empty rather than being a coincidental noop. > The empty statement stands out like a mistake IMHO. Neither is particularly elegant. I suggest: for (...) { } This has the advantage of looking like an explicitly empty code block, which it is. It also has the advantage of letting you insert and delete, by editor or #if, as many debugging lines as you need inside the trailing code block. % Use % of 'continue' in this context suggests that a line was deleted or has yet % to be inserted. > I say the exact opposite. The continue line implies to me that it's > intentional, vs. the other way. Obviously, the use of continue vs. empty statement does not clarify the issue, so let's explicitly clarify it. % Of course, style also favours inserting a space before the parenthesis. > True, but in this manner everyone I've spoken with tends to prefer the > former over the latter (continue vs. empty semi-colon). Yes, please. Always: keyword ( and functionname(, no deviations allowed! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 09:41:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA10509 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns.pinpt.com (dns.pinpt.com [205.179.195.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA10345; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:41:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from journeyman (gatemaster.pinpt.com [205.179.195.65]) by dns.pinpt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA04312; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:40:23 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 97 09:39:26 Pacific Standard Time From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Subject: Re: Z-Mail & FreeBSD To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Josef Grosch Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Chameleon ATX 6.0, Standards Based IntraNet Solutions, NetManage Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199702050827.AAA16785@superior.truenorth.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> NetManage now owns ZMail, and they do not have a FreeBSD version on their FTP > > > >> site, I also got the flyer so here are the version they currently support: > > > >Well, I just talked to the UNIX product manager and gave him my pitch > >for resurrecting the existing inheirited-from-NCD port of Zmail to > >FreeBSD. They're not wildly enthusiastic about adding Yet Another > >platform to their list of responsibilities, but they're intrigued by > >the idea of doing a purely promotional thing with FreeBSD as a "use at > >your own risk" kinda thing. We'll see where it goes. > > How much would a copy of Zmail go for ? Would it be helpful if a number of > us started sending email to NetManage offering to throw green pieces of > paper at them for a copy of Zmail ;-) > Z-Mail for Unix v4.3 is $95.00us. -Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean J. Schluntz Manager, Support Services ph. 408.997.6900 x222 PinPoint Software Corporation fx. 408.323.2300 6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 San Jose, CA. 95120 http://www.pinpt.com/ Local Time Sent: 02/05/97 09:39:27 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11:18:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03302 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03295 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA02562 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:17:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:17:46 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Mail trivia Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A project I'm working on involves doing some analysis of email header use (as compared to standards). Some fallout of this is information on what email clients people use. Over the last two years, about 39,000 messages have been posted to freebsd-questions, of which 28,948 had easy to spot mail client signatures. Your task is to guess the top ten mail clients, and their rank. Extra credit goes to whoever can guess actual percentages. Grepping the archives considered cheating. Next week... name the top 20 posters! -john From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11:23:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03777 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from chai.plexuscom.com (chai.plexuscom.com [207.87.46.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03761 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from chai.plexuscom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chai.plexuscom.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA12987; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:22:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702051922.OAA12987@chai.plexuscom.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: g++, STL and -frepo on FreeBSD-2.2-Beta In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Feb 1997 17:05:28 MST." <199702050005.RAA13528@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 14:22:40 -0500 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Urg. As always, if it can be proven to my satisfaction that I have > actually made a mistake, I will post a retraction; now you have me > wondering, since you are generally reliable as a sanity-check... 8-(. > > Are you saying that there is a condition in which the linker > will not be able to find a symbol that is really there? I was > under the impression that if the template declaration was in > scope, the function implementation would be instanced in scope: The `scope' of a named object is the *program text* where the object name is visible. This is strictly a compile time property for block structured languages like C++. If there was a scoping error the compiler would have complained, not the linker. If the linker can not find a symbol, either the compiler did not give it the right information or the linker is buggy. But either way, error is in `linking' not in `scoping'. The rest of your message indicates that you are using `scope' in a way I am unfamiliar with (and your use is not standard. See for example the `dragon' book on compilers). > When a template is invoked, _Type_ will be replaced with > a specific type value, such as _int_ or _String_. > I was under the impression that "invocation" was not possible at > runtime. If it were possible (it is, in theory, if you pass > around void instances of the object and explicity invoke the copy > constructors, etc., of the base type), it would require a working > RTTI implementation, IMO, as well as the cooperation of the linker, > aw well as compiler cooperation in treating a template definition > as a two pass declaration, since RTTI only works for classes with > pure virtual functions. The compiler would have to implictly > provide it's own abstract interface type. I think you are making this harder to understand that it needs to be. Let us take an example: template class list { ... }; typedef list int_list; Think of a template as a *type function*. `Invoking' a function yields its value. Invoking a type function yields its value, a type. Here `list' is a type function. `list' is an invocation of this function -- also called a template instantiation. The result is a normal type, which we named `int_list'. In a statically typed language there is no *need* to construct types at runtime. Hence there is no need to invoke a type function at runtime. Also note that you can do the same for certain normal functions provided the compiler can deduce the value of the function will be the same at runtime. Just to use template instantiations you don't need the linker's cooperation. If a source file uses functions defined on a bunch of instantiated templates, the compiler can generate the necessary code for these functions along with the code for the source file. No external references are generated for any of the template instance functions. But this can cause code bloat. If N files reference the same function of the same template instance, there will be N copies of this function. To deal with that problem the compiler has to a) not generate code but generate an external reference for any use of a template instance function and b) somehow separately compile these functions for each template instance. Then the linker can link everyone together and there is exactly one copy of every function that was used (and may be the ones that were not used). But you *still* don't need any linker help. Without the -frepo patch step b) requires the user to manually generate separate files with define the template instances and compile them with a different flag to the compiler (since in this case you do want to generate code). Presumably the -frepo patch (in its correct incarnation) will (or does) allow a special linker to perform step b) automatically. And it is here where the linker comes in. > If it is, tell me, and I will admit the mistake. Then I will > point out that this probably requires the cooperation of the > linker, and that the FreeBSD a.out linker is not being (very) > actively maintained... and, as was pointed out, it works with > John Polstra's "ELFKit"... consider upgrading. Otherwise, it's > unreasonable to expect the "magic" to work elsewhere, so it's > poor style, no matter how you cut it. As far as I know the freebsd linker works fine. I was using -frepo to cut down on code bloat, which is where I ran into trouble. > > The bad news is that it segfaults on even simple Verilog > > module definitions. So for now this mini project has been ^Z'ed > > (put on hold). Thanks to all the people who responded with helpful > > hints (even if wrong:-). > > I have been implementing COM and DCOM objects using pure abstract > virtual base classes for interface definitions, using the FreeBSD g++ > compiler in -current. If you could give a code fragment which > triggers the error, I might be able to help out. Thanks for your offer but I suspect the bug is in the simulator. That is where I am going to look first when I have enough free time to track this down. If you or anyone else is interested, this is vbs-1.3.tgz -- I think ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/apps/circuits/ is where it is at. -- bakul From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 11:35:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04693 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:35:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.ucdavis.edu [128.120.37.176]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04687 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (reqf-022.ucdavis.edu [128.120.253.142]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA25495; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.8.4/8.7.3) id LAA07229; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:34:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19970205113459.NH28861@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:34:59 -0800 From: obrien@NUXI.com (David O'Brien) To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail References: <199702041559.IAA27474@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199702041941.TAA11400@veda.is> <199702041933.MAA28784@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199702051516.IAA08885@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59-PL19 Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: The NUXI *BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 In-Reply-To: <199702051516.IAA08885@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Feb 5, 1997 08:16:58 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: > Neither is particularly elegant. I suggest: > > for (...) > { > } Actually I use: for (...) {/*empty*/} so that it will be obvious to green C coders (yes many East Coast gov. contractors will throw someone straght from college on a project w/o a life jacket). > Yes, please. Always: keyword ( and functionname(, no deviations > allowed! ;^) Yes, p-l-e-a-s-e. Makes grep'ing easier. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 12:47:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10732 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10706 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:46:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (karl@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Mailbox.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id OAA00180 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:46:49 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.5/8.8.2) id OAA13161 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:46:47 -0600 (CST) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199702052046.OAA13161@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: Karl fulminates, film at 11. == thanks To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:46:47 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "The Hermit Hacker" at Feb 5, 97 04:42:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I didn't write that. And I'd NEVER run Linux, nor do I allow it on the core here. -- Karl > On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Craig Shaver wrote: > > > Karl Denninger wrote: > > del .... > > > > Just wanted to drop you a note to thank you for kicking the freebsd core > > team in the butt for security concerns. I am not sure your suggestions > > are the best way to resolve the problems with security, but it may make > > some people think about the problems instead of just ignoring them. > > > > I have to admit, when I saw that crt.o had a security hole I was ready > > to dump freebsd and head straight for the nearest linux cd. I imagine > > that those in the ISP business are even more concerned. > > > > Geez, considering the number of *holes* that Linux has as > far as security is concerned... > > ...have fun Karl :) > > > NOTE: This is based on experience with Linux in a very limited way. > A friend runs Linux and Solaris (with a FreeBSD box I slapped in) > and has more problems with breakin's on the Linux box then on any > other OS :( > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 14:32:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17826 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:32:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17817 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:32:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA15792; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:29:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199702052229.PAA15792@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: g++, STL and -frepo on FreeBSD-2.2-Beta To: bakul@torrentnet.com (Bakul Shah) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:29:25 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199702051922.OAA12987@chai.plexuscom.com> from "Bakul Shah" at Feb 5, 97 02:22:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Urg. As always, if it can be proven to my satisfaction that I have > > actually made a mistake, I will post a retraction; now you have me > > wondering, since you are generally reliable as a sanity-check... 8-(. > > > > Are you saying that there is a condition in which the linker > > will not be able to find a symbol that is really there? I was > > under the impression that if the template declaration was in > > scope, the function implementation would be instanced in scope: > > The `scope' of a named object is the *program text* where the object > name is visible. This is strictly a compile time property for block > structured languages like C++. If there was a scoping error the > compiler would have complained, not the linker. If the linker can > not find a symbol, either the compiler did not give it the right > information or the linker is buggy. But either way, error is in > `linking' not in `scoping'. OK. I was wrong. But assuming the patches work, then it's still got to be pilot error. Either they work, and the linker isn't involved, so they are being invoked improperly, OR they work, and the linker is involved, and assumptions which are not true are being made of the linker, OR they don't work, they are being used, and using non-working code is also pilot error. Since they work on ELF and not on a.out, it make sense that the problem is probably in the linker, but I guess it's possible to contrive a case where it isn't. > The rest of your message indicates that you are using `scope' in a > way I am unfamiliar with (and your use is not standard. See for > example the `dragon' book on compilers). Symbol scope vs. lexical scope. Sorry. > In a statically typed language there is no *need* to construct types > at runtime. Hence there is no need to invoke a type function at > runtime. Also note that you can do the same for certain normal > functions provided the compiler can deduce the value of the function > will be the same at runtime. I guess this is where the confusion is. Is g++ without frepo statically typed, but with frepo, not statically typed? > Just to use template instantiations you don't need the linker's > cooperation. If a source file uses functions defined on a bunch of > instantiated templates, the compiler can generate the necessary code > for these functions along with the code for the source file. No > external references are generated for any of the template instance > functions. Yes. This is the only way that works for a.out, so far as I know. > But this can cause code bloat. If N files reference the same > function of the same template instance, there will be N copies of > this function. To deal with that problem the compiler has to > a) not generate code but generate an external reference for > any use of a template instance function and > b) somehow separately compile these functions for each template > instance. > > Then the linker can link everyone together and there is exactly one > copy of every function that was used (and may be the ones that were > not used). But you *still* don't need any linker help. > > Without the -frepo patch step b) requires the user to manually > generate separate files with define the template instances and > compile them with a different flag to the compiler (since in this > case you do want to generate code). Or (c), it requires the linker to agregate segments with identical tags into a single segment instance. Borland does this; it requires that your object file format support multiple segments. You seem to be saying that the frepo patches don't work, or because they are known to work with ELF, that the frepo patches don't work with the a.out code back end and/or linker. So, again, I was wrong about the location of the pilot error, but not about its existance. I guess this is a case where I heard hoof-beats and thought "horses!" and I should have thought "zebras!". 8-) 8-). > Thanks for your offer but I suspect the bug is in the simulator. > That is where I am going to look first when I have enough free time > to track this down. Hmmm... have you tried running the make under gnumake? It may be that there is a step not being invoked... > If you or anyone else is interested, this is vbs-1.3.tgz -- I think > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/apps/circuits/ is where it is at. I will grab this when I have a chance; thanks for the pointer. Thanks for the correction, too; it's always better to know what is going on than to think you know what is going on. ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 15:20:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21403 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [204.178.32.161]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21336 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (spork@localhost) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA00856; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:27:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:27:01 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: David Greenman cc: tqbf@enteract.com, karl@mcs.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.1.6+++: crt0.c CRITICAL CHANGE In-Reply-To: <199702052208.OAA11453@root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, David Greenman wrote: > I don't like how this whole mess has come down. There is an awful lot of > ill-will being passed out that will have long term ramifications. It didn't > need to happen this way. > > -DG I think most of the ill-will comes from the following sources: 1. Misinformation - I've applied like 5 different patches to all my machines (there are many) in hopes that some punk wouldn't come along and put the company I work for out of business. Estimates on the severity went from very serious to kind-of-serious. What's a user to do? 2. Lack of Information - I saw more info on Bugtraq than on the various FBSD lists. Not even an announcement something was being hammered out. That tends to make anyone who depends on their machines *very* nervous. I understand it takes time to create a fix, but a quick paragraph to update the masses would be nice. 3. You folks (DG & Co.) are the core team-as such there are certain things that those of us that are administrators *but not C programmers* (some would say there's no such thing as an administrator that's not a programmer, and I say "what the hell am I doing 10 hours a day then?"). You have to realize that you "sell" the OS on the webpage and in -questions, etc. and in turn people like me "sell" the OS to the money people. So I'm sitting here like the proverbial "sitting duck" not knowing how to fix the problem even with all the time in the world. If I knew a bit more, I'd be on the list freaking out and screaming about why the big hole in the bottom of the boat at sea is not being patched; even if only with duct tape. 4. The damned medium of communications. If Karl, Tom, Joe, and the core team were sitting face to face over laptops in a nice bar somewhere, the arguments would be shorter and the solution would be out by now. Arguing wastes alot of time when done via email. That's it; my only complaint is being kept in the dark to sweat it out. If I knew my C, I'd be trying to help, and I'd be alot less nervous. So for those of us who aren't able to mumble library routines in our sleep, please try and keep us posted (even a *short* message) when security problems crop up. And some background for those *learning* C would be good a bit after the fact so we can all learn the safe way to code from previous mistakes... Thanks for a swell OS, and I'm REALLY looking forward to the patch, Charles From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 15:23:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21784 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21774; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:23:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (karl@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Mailbox.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA06414; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:23:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.5/8.8.2) id RAA18464; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:23:04 -0600 (CST) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199702052323.RAA18464@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! To: spork@super-g.com (spork) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:23:04 -0600 (CST) Cc: dg@root.com, tqbf@enteract.com, karl@mcs.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "spork" at Feb 5, 97 06:27:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, David Greenman wrote: > > > I don't like how this whole mess has come down. There is an awful lot of > > ill-will being passed out that will have long term ramifications. It didn't > > need to happen this way. > > > > -DG > > I think most of the ill-will comes from the following sources: .... Well, the core team just added to that ill will. Deliberately. I have just received a voice phone call from one of the core members asking me to leave FreeBSD, transition our machines off the operating system, and walk away. Obviously, I will do none of the above. But I thought you should know that the response of the core team is to these kinds of issues. A parallel code track will be online within a few days for those who believe that THIS kind of response is unwarranted under ANY circumstances. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 773 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 15:37:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23285 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:37:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23238; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA12468; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:36:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702052336.PAA12468@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Karl Denninger cc: spork@super-g.com (spork), tqbf@enteract.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 1997 17:23:04 CST." <199702052323.RAA18464@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:36:34 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, David Greenman wrote: >> >> > I don't like how this whole mess has come down. There is an awful lot of >> > ill-will being passed out that will have long term ramifications. It didn't >> > need to happen this way. >> > >> > -DG >> >> I think most of the ill-will comes from the following sources: > >.... > >Well, the core team just added to that ill will. Deliberately. The "core team" did no such thing. You are not being blacklisted and the core team did not ask you to de-install FreeBSD. >I have just received a voice phone call from one of the core members asking >me to leave FreeBSD, transition our machines off the operating system, >and walk away. > >Obviously, I will do none of the above. > >But I thought you should know that the response of the core team is to these >kinds of issues. The is not the response of the core team and I had no knowledge that anyone representing us called you until just a couple of minutes ago. Jordan is not representing the core team if he has told you to do the above, and he does not have the support of any of us in this issue. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:14:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26719 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26704 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:14:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA22980; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:15:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702060015.QAA22980@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Karl Denninger cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 1997 17:23:04 CST." <199702052323.RAA18464@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 16:15:01 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is an official notice , take a break and enjoy yourself 8) Be Happy, Amancio >From The Desk Of Karl Denninger : > > On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, David Greenman wrote: > > > > > I don't like how this whole mess has come down. There is an awful lot of > > > ill-will being passed out that will have long term ramifications. It didn 't > > > need to happen this way. > > > > > > -DG > > > > I think most of the ill-will comes from the following sources: > > .... > > Well, the core team just added to that ill will. Deliberately. > > I have just received a voice phone call from one of the core members asking > me to leave FreeBSD, transition our machines off the operating system, > and walk away. > > Obviously, I will do none of the above. > > But I thought you should know that the response of the core team is to these > kinds of issues. > > A parallel code track will be online within a few days for those who believe > that THIS kind of response is unwarranted under ANY circumstances. > > -- > -- > Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity > http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo > Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.ne t/ > Fax: [+1 773 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Intern al From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:33:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28583 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA28554; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA17293; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:33:49 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma017291; Thu Feb 6 00:33:45 1997 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA01767; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:32:39 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:32:39 -0800 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199702060032.QAA01767@meerkat.mole.org> To: karl@mcs.net, spork@super-g.com Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! Cc: current@freebsd.org, dg@root.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org, tqbf@enteract.com Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > A parallel code track will be online within a few days for those who believe > that THIS kind of response is unwarranted under ANY circumstances. > It's not often that I ask publicly for a reconsideration of position. I'd like to do so in this case. I think creation of a parallel code track would be detrimental to FreeBSD development effort at this time. There are many out here who have considered such action from time to time... counting to ten helps. A loosely-coupled collaborative effort such as FreeBSD is an amazing thing. I'd be really disappointed to see it fragment over hot words. -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:37:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28816 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA28772; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA10125; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:32:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32F9261C.2781E494@whistle.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 16:30:20 -0800 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Karl Denninger CC: spork , dg@root.com, tqbf@enteract.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! References: <199702052323.RAA18464@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Karl Denninger wrote: > > > .... > > Well, the core team just added to that ill will. Deliberately. > > I have just received a voice phone call from one of the core members asking > me to leave FreeBSD, transition our machines off the operating system, > and walk away. Oh damn.. which loonie? if their threshhold for pain is crossed by one irate and worried user then they must have a lot of other pent up frustrations making them that sensitive. I've basically bet my future on FreeBSD, and I'm doing all I can to keep it running and successful. I wish people wouldn't do things like this.. (of course it's always your OPTION to decide to use some other OS, but no one can TELL you to do so, and I hope that all this settles down eventually as a bad memeory) > > Obviously, I will do none of the above. good > > But I thought you should know that the response of the core team is to these > kinds of issues. > > A parallel code track will be online within a few days for those who believe > that THIS kind of response is unwarranted under ANY circumstances. I hope you don't call it XXXBSD but rather FreeBSD "security track" or something... 3 is enough already. CVSUP would be good for this.. hopefully > > -- > -- > Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity > http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo > Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ > Fax: [+1 773 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 16:42:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA29102 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29074; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA25003; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:41:19 -0800 (PST) To: dg@root.com cc: Karl Denninger , spork@super-g.com (spork), tqbf@enteract.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:36:34 PST." <199702052336.PAA12468@root.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 16:41:18 -0800 Message-ID: <24999.855189678@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > representing us called you until just a couple of minutes ago. Jordan is not > representing the core team if he has told you to do the above, and he does > not have the support of any of us in this issue. It's also not what I told Karl, but he will slant things as he will. I suggested he might want to seek other alternatives if we were such cretins in his eyes (his letter have hardly been complimentary up to now, let's put it that way) and that OpenBSD seemed to have a security policy more in-line with his own demands. Ironically, the whole call started with my asking Karl how we were going to deal with all of this and if he could possibly moderate his style and toss in less of these "NOW!" demands that have everyone so up in arms so that there might actually be some future for all of us. He wanted no part of such a discussion as he did not see himself as any component of the problem, so I then suggested that since he had garnered so much ill-will here (and he has) and did not see any value in a more moderate approach, he might investigate OpenBSD. This was an option which Karl not only flat-out refused but somehow took as an injunction to "leave", as if such could even be possible with a free software project, and an accusation that I even refuted during the conversation by telling him that of course I couldn't "stop him from running FreeBSD" and I was merely suggesting what seemed to be a better alternative for him (if even half of OpenBSD's security claims can be believed). I still feel that way. However, I do not see why Karl feels so compelled to discuss all of this in inappropriate mailing lists like this one, and I think that it really does need to go to -chat RIGHT NOW to borrow some caps from Karl or see the rest of this thread filtered for abusing the mailing list charter. That is no more or less than we've requested from others in the past, and if Karl feels singled-out by the need to obey basic netiquette then that's hardly my fault. To most folks who've been forced to endure this so far, it's just unwelcome noise and lots of it. I don't need it, you don't need it, core doesn't need it and I daresay that Karl doesn't need it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 17:14:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01536 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01443; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from dns.pinpt.com (dns.pinpt.com [205.179.195.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id QAA17486 ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from journeyman (gatemaster.pinpt.com [205.179.195.65]) by dns.pinpt.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA07317; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:48:44 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 97 16:42:49 Pacific Standard Time From: "Sean J. Schluntz" Subject: A question about the security of your splinter. To: Karl Denninger , spork Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, karl@mcs.net X-Mailer: Chameleon ATX 6.0, Standards Based IntraNet Solutions, NetManage Inc. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199702052323.RAA18464@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A parallel code track will be online within a few days for those who believe > that THIS kind of response is unwarranted under ANY circumstances. I hate to see this continue, so feel free to answer this in private. How can any of us know that your 'parallel code track' will be any better? Will you personally guarantee that your flavor of FBSD will be safer and that you will personally make sure that any hole in the product is filled? Nothing personal, but I trust a team of people who share what they know with eachother to come up with cleaner and more permenant answers than just one person who is trying to 'save the world'. Like I said, no office intended, I just don't understand how your splinter will help anything. -Sean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean J. Schluntz Manager, Support Services ph. 408.997.6900 x222 PinPoint Software Corporation fx. 408.323.2300 6155 Almaden Expressway, Suite 100 San Jose, CA. 95120 http://www.pinpt.com/ Local Time Sent: 02/05/97 16:42:49 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 17:29:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02861 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02854; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (karl@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Mailbox.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id TAA02109; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:28:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.5/8.8.2) id TAA22263; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:28:57 -0600 (CST) From: Karl Denninger Message-Id: <199702060128.TAA22263@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:28:57 -0600 (CST) Cc: dg@root.com, karl@mcs.net, spork@super-g.com, tqbf@enteract.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <24999.855189678@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 5, 97 04:41:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > representing us called you until just a couple of minutes ago. Jordan is not > > representing the core team if he has told you to do the above, and he does > > not have the support of any of us in this issue. > > It's also not what I told Karl, but he will slant things as he will. > I suggested he might want to seek other alternatives if we were such > cretins in his eyes (his letter have hardly been complimentary up to > now, let's put it that way) and that OpenBSD seemed to have a security > policy more in-line with his own demands. I need a tape recorder on my phone calls. You're lying Jordan. I already caught one lie when I spoke with John Dyson. Now I have (at least) two. You made it VERY clear that either I play by YOUR rules or forget playing at all. You represented this as the position of the ENTIRE core team. You tried to play the injunction game, and I asked you how you intended to enforce that -- at which point you stated that you couldn't (which is obvious). You also played the "go play with Theo" game too, which I also refused to do. I asked you multiple times about your intent during the few minutes we were on the phone, and even STARTED with the statement that if you just called to bitch I had no reason to continue. On the third or forth iteration of that the call was terminated as it was obvious that nothing further remained to be discussed. You lied about John Dyson's position on the issues; I talked to him IMMEDIATELY after you hung up. He said in no uncertain terms that he did not share the opinion you expressed to me, and further, that you had no business representing his opinion to ANYONE at ANY TIME, and in fact, that nobody other than John himself had any business doing that. > I still feel that way. However, I do not see why Karl feels so > compelled to discuss all of this in inappropriate mailing lists like > this one, and I think that it really does need to go to -chat RIGHT > NOW to borrow some caps from Karl or see the rest of this thread > filtered for abusing the mailing list charter. Oh, right. Now you're being censorious about this. > To most folks who've been forced to endure this so far, it's just > unwelcome noise and lots of it. I don't need it, you don't need it, > core doesn't need it and I daresay that Karl doesn't need it. > > Jordan Misrepresentation needs to be corrected when it occurs. You're misrepresenting the conversation. Severely. I'm done. I won't respond to this thread again, but I will go forward with my own mirroring and parallel track unless the core convinces me otherwise in PRIVATE communication. So you get your wish -- no more discussion on -current. Not that its relavent. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 773 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 17:51:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA04016 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03959; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA16257; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:46:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199702060146.SAA16257@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! To: karl@mcs.net (Karl Denninger) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:46:37 -0700 (MST) Cc: spork@super-g.com, dg@root.com, tqbf@enteract.com, karl@mcs.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199702052323.RAA18464@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> from "Karl Denninger" at Feb 5, 97 05:23:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But I thought you should know that the response of the core team is to these > kinds of issues. > > A parallel code track will be online within a few days for those who believe > that THIS kind of response is unwarranted under ANY circumstances. Ugh. I hate this. I have to ask the question: How will you organize, such that you don't eventually end up in the exact same boat, with just the names on the crew's quarters changed? I believe this is an organizational problem, and I have yet to see anyone *do* anything about it, other than threaten to reiterate it by starting a parallel code track. Sometimes they follow through on their threats. Mostly, they don't think of starting someting non-parallel because their thinking is already constrained by the organization they are splintering from. Sort of a "parting gift". Now I have to ask: Why start your own parallel code track? What is wrong with the parallel code track OpenBSD is running? Now I have to play scientist: i Run an experiment (386BSD). Note that it results in splinter organizations because the structure of the organization can't equitably reconcile dissent. ii Run it again (NetBSD). Note that it results in splinter organizations because the structure of the organization can't equitably reconcile dissent. iii Run it again (FreeBSD). ... iv Run it again (OpenBSD). ... v Now run it again, only run it several times in parallel, with the inter-group synchronization happening at a (miraculously) agreed upon mutex. Call this mutex "Linus_Torvalds" because it's easy to spell. Note that running it in parallel delays, but does not prevent, the inevitable results. Call the splinter organizations "Red Hat" and other colorful names. Like "Lignux". And then ask from the perspective this provides: What value is in running the experiment a sixth time? Is it reasonable to expect the results to be any different from the other five times it was run? Is the only value in the commemorative life preserver you get, the one with the new boat's name proudly stenciled around its rim? If every time you start a game of Conway's "life", you start from an arrangement that gives you a "traffic light", then restarting the game from the same initial conditions with the same rules is bound to result in another "traffic light". You don't have to be Conway himself to figure this out, any more than you have to be Newton to predict that when you drop a rock, it won't hang there in the air "in very much the same way a brick doesn't". Since you can't change the initial conditions (free software groups agregate for the same reasons free software groups have always agregated), then the only thing you have to work with is the rules. Before you go off on a half-cocked "New Reformed Church Of XXX" crusade, think twice about this. Then if you are still intent on doing it, think a third time about HOW you are going to do it, and HOW you are going to prevent the same inequities, so someone doesn't start the same crusade against you some day because your similarly structured organization of similarly minded people ends up running the social automaton to the same steady state. Then delay implementation until you've addressed all of the issues your thinking has raised, or you will find yourself in the Captain's cabin with a bottle of rum wondering "how did things turn out this way?". Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 18:38:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06169 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06136; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA26191; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:37:30 -0800 (PST) To: dg@root.com, spork@super-g.com, tqbf@enteract.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 1997 19:28:57 CST." <199702060128.TAA22263@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 18:37:30 -0800 Message-ID: <26186.855196650@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You made it VERY clear that either I play by YOUR rules or forget playing > at all. You represented this as the position of the ENTIRE core team. > >You lied about John Dyson's position on the issues; I talked to him >IMMEDIATELY after you hung up. He said in no uncertain terms that he I could respond to Karl on this, but I won't as it's obviously more than pointless by now. Suffice it to say that I never even mentioned John Dyson during our phone conversation and did not claim to speak for all of core, so those who are wondering whether I've gone and crowned myself King can stop wondering. Karl's summary of our phone conversation bears no resemblance to the reality of what actually took place and I rather wish I'd recorded it myself. In any case... Here is a summary of the *technical* situation at this time: A 2.1.6 emergency machine has been built and is now rolling a 2.1.7 release. I'm also in the process of sending out a CERT advisory with fixes and David has already stayed up all night getting them into all 3 branches, so I think we're now in pretty good shape where this is concerned but will have more news tomorrow after the 2.1.7 build has finished (or not). There is also a general security audit now underway, spearheaded by Paul Traina, and he's done a sign-up sheet for people willing to take a piece of /usr/src away and look at it for security problems (others who wish to cull the *BSD PR databases or investigate other sources also being more than welcome to take that approach). Once it's finished being passed around in -core and some folks have signed up for various things, I'll post the roster here and we can search for volunteers to cover the missing bases. I also think that a complete walk-through of our codebase is probably long overdue anyway, and this is a good chance for everyone to prove the old maxim that security begins at home (or was that charity? :-). Talk to me or security-officer@freebsd.org if you'd like to jump on board. Thanks! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 18:43:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06434 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:43:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-17.netcom.ca [207.181.94.145]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06427; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:42:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.4/8.8.2) with SMTP id WAA16796; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:42:27 -0400 (AST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:42:27 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Sean J. Schluntz" cc: Karl Denninger , spork , current@freebsd.org, dg@root.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A question about the security of your splinter. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Sean J. Schluntz wrote: > > A parallel code track will be online within a few days for those who believe > > that THIS kind of response is unwarranted under ANY circumstances. > > I hate to see this continue, so feel free to answer this in private. > > How can any of us know that your 'parallel code track' will be any better? > Will you personally guarantee that your flavor of FBSD will be safer and that > you will personally make sure that any hole in the product is filled? > Can his 'parallel code track' be called FreeBSD? From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:14:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03992 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03983 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA26217; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:13:53 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19970206151353.DR42894@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:13:53 +1100 From: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) To: scrappy@hub.org Cc: craig@progroup.com (Craig Shaver), karl@Mcs.Net (Karl Denninger), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Karl fulminates, film at 11. == thanks References: <32F8C971.794BDF32@progroup.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60-PL0 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Feb 5, 1997 16:42:05 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker writes: > NOTE: This is based on experience with Linux in a very limited way. > A friend runs Linux and Solaris (with a FreeBSD box I slapped in) > and has more problems with breakin's on the Linux box then on any > other OS :( Probably because Linux has more exposure on the internet than for any other reason, and the fact that most Linux distributions use weak password encryption and a world-readable passwd file. A Linux system set up correctly with npasswd or shadow is not /intrinsically/ more or less "secure" than FreeBSD set up in the same manner. The only point which differentiates the two is the number of published hacks and the number of systems out there on the internet running insecure code. A claim on any other basis is ludicrous and not based on sound reasoning - more a religious issue than a point of fact. As we now know, the figure for the number of systems running insecure code in FreeBSD's case now applies to ALL 2.1.x systems which provide shell access. Of course, that's not likely to represent anywhere near the numbers of insecurely configured Linux systems on the net, but viewed as a percentage of the installed userbase of each operating system, the story is probably vastly different. I'm not trying to defend Linux here in any way, but security is a far more complex issue than what OS you happen to be running. Breaking it down in that manner doesn't do it justice. [BTW, please don't use Reply-To to redirect to mailing lists. That is intended for redirection of personal replies, not a means of redirecting followups. If you want to redirect, then post to the correct list in the first place.] Regards, David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:20:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04378 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04360 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id OAA00250 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:50:43 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702060420.OAA00250@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: The saga of Terry and Jaz To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:50:42 +1030 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry; you may recall some time back our bickering about what can/can't be configured on a Jaz drive. Your last-ditch defence was that the option you were describing was settable with jumpers on the drive, and at that point I had to let it rest because I was only in possession of an external unit. Well, now I have a pile of internals on the desk behind me, and lo and behold, all that can be set by jumpers is the SCSI ID. HNBC? 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:39:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA05573 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA05540; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (jamie@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA05499; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:53:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:53:04 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Karl Denninger cc: spork , dg@root.com, tqbf@enteract.com, karl@mcs.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! In-Reply-To: <199702052323.RAA18464@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Why is this half quoted thread being sent to -chat? This is something I would expect from theo. Do we really need this? As I have stated many times when the aforementioned OpenBSD developer feels the need to do this: So what? Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Karl Denninger wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, David Greenman wrote: > > > > > I don't like how this whole mess has come down. There is an awful lot of > > > ill-will being passed out that will have long term ramifications. It didn't > > > need to happen this way. > > > > > > -DG > > > > I think most of the ill-will comes from the following sources: > > .... > > Well, the core team just added to that ill will. Deliberately. > > I have just received a voice phone call from one of the core members asking > me to leave FreeBSD, transition our machines off the operating system, > and walk away. > > Obviously, I will do none of the above. > > But I thought you should know that the response of the core team is to these > kinds of issues. > > A parallel code track will be online within a few days for those who believe > that THIS kind of response is unwarranted under ANY circumstances. > > -- > -- > Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity > http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service > | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo > Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ > Fax: [+1 773 248-9865] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 20:54:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA07010 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06983; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (jamie@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA06910; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:08:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:08:55 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: dg@root.com, spork@super-g.com, tqbf@enteract.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! In-Reply-To: <26186.855196650@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So what is this 'threat'? And how severe is it? I mean, sendmail has delivered remote root on demand in the last three releases, so how bad can this really be? Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > You made it VERY clear that either I play by YOUR rules or forget playing > > at all. You represented this as the position of the ENTIRE core team. > > > >You lied about John Dyson's position on the issues; I talked to him > >IMMEDIATELY after you hung up. He said in no uncertain terms that he > > I could respond to Karl on this, but I won't as it's obviously more > than pointless by now. Suffice it to say that I never even mentioned > John Dyson during our phone conversation and did not claim to speak > for all of core, so those who are wondering whether I've gone and > crowned myself King can stop wondering. Karl's summary of our phone > conversation bears no resemblance to the reality of what actually took > place and I rather wish I'd recorded it myself. In any case... > > Here is a summary of the *technical* situation at this time: > > A 2.1.6 emergency machine has been built and is now rolling a 2.1.7 > release. I'm also in the process of sending out a CERT advisory with > fixes and David has already stayed up all night getting them into all > 3 branches, so I think we're now in pretty good shape where this is > concerned but will have more news tomorrow after the 2.1.7 build has > finished (or not). > > There is also a general security audit now underway, spearheaded > by Paul Traina, and he's done a sign-up sheet for people willing to > take a piece of /usr/src away and look at it for security problems > (others who wish to cull the *BSD PR databases or investigate other > sources also being more than welcome to take that approach). > > Once it's finished being passed around in -core and some folks have > signed up for various things, I'll post the roster here and we can > search for volunteers to cover the missing bases. > > I also think that a complete walk-through of our codebase is probably > long overdue anyway, and this is a good chance for everyone to prove > the old maxim that security begins at home (or was that charity? :-). > Talk to me or security-officer@freebsd.org if you'd like to jump on > board. > > Thanks! > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 5 23:07:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA17619 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17603 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:07:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id RAA01787; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:37:39 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702060707.RAA01787@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Karl fulminates, film at 11. == thanks In-Reply-To: <4487.855210199@critter.dk.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Feb 6, 97 07:23:19 am" To: phk@critter.dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:37:39 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp stands accused of saying: > > > >It is perhaps also sobering to observe that the loudest voices demanding > >that the _unpaid_ volunteers do something for them came from people who > >are _making_money_ from FreeBSD, who have claimed to have the sort of > >resources to support the ogoing development of the _entire_system_ by > >themselves and yet _cannot_even_generate_a_four_line_diff_correctly_ > >when challenged to do something or shut up. > > Indeed, a very precise and correct if not entirely polite observation. I wish I could be polite about the whole debacle. I was devestated by Karl's outbreak of irrational boorishness having previously concluded that he was a competent professional, and saddened by the effects of the stress that Jordan's currently under on his normally bright and sensible handling of these situations. At the moment, I'm waiting with bated breath for the inevitable rash of amateur organisationalist comments and the petty point-scoring that's likely to follow. On the whole, I feel there's been far too much drawing of conclusions and not enough listening and understanding, for a variety of reasons, none simple or open to pop rationalisation. Terry has probably codified it best, but all he's managed to do is ask the questions, not propose any answers. Solutions? Hah. It doesn't help that I was watching Wings of Desire/Faraway So Close last night. How depressingly topical. 8( > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 00:53:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20663 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20643 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.6/8.6.5) with SMTP id AAA16092; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:52:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702060852.AAA16092@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Steven Wallace cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My resignation as president of the FreeBSD Project. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 1997 23:26:01 PST." <199702060726.XAA22613@newport.ece.uci.edu> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 00:52:59 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >So what type of retirement benefits does a FreeBSD president receive? >Are they similar to a U.S. president? > >Are you still suppose to be called "Mr. President" even though you >are really an X-"Mr. President"? No, but we must still play "Hail to the Chief" when he enters the room. :-) -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 01:10:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA23867 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 01:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA23856 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 01:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA00944 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:10:17 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id JAA07920; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:19:08 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:19:07 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! References: <26186.855196650@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Jamie Bowden on Feb 6, 1997 00:08:55 -0500 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jamie Bowden wrote: > So what is this 'threat'? And how severe is it? I mean, sendmail has > delivered remote root on demand in the last three releases, so how bad > can this really be? Less, since it required at least a valid local user first. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 07:54:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA01598 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01533 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) with UUCP id QAA15434; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:51:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from oo7 (oo7.dimaga.com [192.0.0.65]) by dimaga.com (8.7.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id QAA29158; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:27:13 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206162713.00a77680@dimaga.com> X-Sender: eivind@dimaga.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 16:27:15 +0100 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) From: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:19 AM 2/6/97 +0100, J Wunsch wrote: >As Jamie Bowden wrote: > >> So what is this 'threat'? And how severe is it? I mean, sendmail has >> delivered remote root on demand in the last three releases, so how bad >> can this really be? > >Less, since it required at least a valid local user first. In reality, this bug is less severe than the bugs in sendmail, telnet, talkd, wuftpd, finger, etc that has been discovered before - any remote hole is worse. It is little worse than the bugs in lpr or the second-to-last bug in sendmail (kill -HUP bug), due to it being more than a single binary to fix. However, the emotional shock of hearing that _every_ suid binary on your system is vulnerable should not be underestimated. I believe an announcement at once would have been a good move, even one only containing soothing mumbo-jumbo, summarised as "There is a problem; we know what it is, and we'll be back as soon as possible with a proper fix. This will take a little time, as we need to do it properly." Well, it is easy to be wise in hindsight. :) Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 08:12:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA08230 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08193 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dolphin.inna.net (jamie@dolphin.inna.net [206.151.66.2]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25108; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:26:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:14:08 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Michael Smith cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Karl fulminates, film at 11. == thanks In-Reply-To: <199702060707.RAA01787@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > On the whole, I feel there's been far too much drawing of conclusions > and not enough listening and understanding, for a variety of reasons, > none simple or open to pop rationalisation. Terry has probably > codified it best, but all he's managed to do is ask the questions, not > propose any answers. Terry may be long winded at some times, but at least he knows what questions to ask. I personally missed most of this whole episode, not being on -current. I don't know about the rest of you, but I really think that any organisational body needs a head of some sort. As much as we laugh at dilbert, management is necessary, and good management is hard to find. I think Jordan did a hell of a job in his time as 'President.' I personally am sorry to see that FreeBSD no longer has any official leader as such. FreeBSD does not need the Linus godhead that Linux has, but it does need a leader to keep it focused. I worked for Anheuser-Busch for 5 years in my late teens/early twenties, 4 of them in a supervisory position. The one thing I learned in all those meetings and training classes is that management is a necessary evil. Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 08:22:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11476 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from chai.plexuscom.com (chai.plexuscom.com [207.87.46.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11452 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from chai.plexuscom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chai.plexuscom.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA16070; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:21:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702061621.LAA16070@chai.plexuscom.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: g++, STL and -frepo on FreeBSD-2.2-Beta In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:29:25 MST." <199702052229.PAA15792@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 11:21:07 -0500 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I guess this is where the confusion is. Is g++ without frepo statically > typed, but with frepo, not statically typed? There are no semantic differences at the language level. AFAIK, the -frepo patches simply affect the *size* of the generated binary. > You seem to be saying that the frepo patches don't work, or because > they are known to work with ELF, that the frepo patches don't work > with the a.out code back end and/or linker. What does not work is stock FSF g++ plus -frepo patches under FreeBSD. by `not work' I mean the compile phase succeeds but the link phase fails. I do not know _where_ the actual error is and I stopped worrying about it once I found out the stock FreeBSD g++ works just fine (if you avoid flags like -fexternal-templates). The only change is that the generated binary is bigger. > Hmmm... have you tried running the make under gnumake? It may be that > there is a step not being invoked... The makefiles are gnumakefiles so I had no other alternative. > Thanks for the correction, too; it's always better to know what is > going on than to think you know what is going on. ;-). I see an infinite recursion here :-) -- bakul From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 08:46:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA14591 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:46:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA14582 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:46:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from caught.inna.net (caught.inna.net [206.151.66.7]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27790 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:00:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:23:17 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Arnold To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Frame grabbers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone have a suggestion for a simple FrameGrabber for use under FreeBSD? We have a QuickCAM on the web which kinda sucks becuase the driver doesn't auto set brightness/contrast so if you turn the lights on you paste the poor thing. I want to just hook some B&W security cameras up that are auto level sensing. The CX100 by ImageNation looks supported but is kinda out of the running at $600+. Thanks. +-----------------------------------------------+ : Tom Arnold - No relation to Rosanne : : SysAdmin/Pres - TBI, Ltd ( inna.net ) : : The Middle Peninsula's Internet Connection : +-----------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 08:57:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA15074 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA15059 for chat; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:57:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199702061657.IAA15059@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: record number of mail message from freefall To: chat Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:57:33 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk if you have been thinking that the quantity of mail from freefall has been unusually high lately, you are right! we hit a record day yesterday: 316827 in a 24 hour period. -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 09:00:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15241 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15234 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) with UUCP id RAA16312; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:58:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from oo7 (oo7.dimaga.com [192.0.0.65]) by dimaga.com (8.7.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id SAA29789; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:00:51 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970206180051.00abec10@dimaga.com> X-Sender: eivind@dimaga.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 18:00:52 +0100 To: Garrett Wollman From: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail Cc: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 12:30 PM 2/3/97 -0500, Garrett Wollman wrote: >< said: > >> Is it only for hystorical reasons that most things still are K&R? > >Well, it depends on which part of `K&R' you are referring to. It is >indeed only for historical reasons that many user programs have no >parameter type-safety at all. However, most newer code will have >prototypes even if the function definitions are still in the >traditional format (which some people prefer, although I'm not one, >and which the style guide still strongly encourages). "Strongly encourages" == "We could not agree. For new subsystems, choose what you feel is more important"? :) Anyway; I would not recommend using ANSI prototypes and K&R style definitions - this can create some weird parameter conversions which are unlikely to give much problems on a machine with pure 32-bit parameter passing, but can potentially give weird problems on later ports. Besides, C9X at least seemed to be going to abolish K&R style function prototypes (which was what I meant). I'll get back to you on whether they still plan to do that. >My approach would be to follow traditional style in terms of >indentation, brace placement, comment formatting, spacing, and so on, >but to always use new-style function declarations and definitions in >new code. Agreement from me. Are there (still, 2 years after the copyright on style(9) ) enough people out there that disagree strongly enough that it would be wrong to recommend this? >Some other rules which are not all entirely written down, >and some of which disagree with style(9): > >5) Never use NULL. Write it `0', and provide casts as appropriate. This is makes it more difficult to see, and provide less typechecking. Casts must be provided as appropriate, of course. >7) Don't use continuation lines in strings. Are you really talking of continuation lines, or do you mean string concatenation or in-string newlines? (Not using continuation lines seems so obvious when string concatenation is available - if it is tolerated.) >11) Don't use in lint(1) ``control comments''. Nobody uses lint. I've just turned into "nobody". :) >> If there isn't any guidelines, I believe some guidelines for which style we >> want (not require) for submissions to FreeBSD might be a good thing - I can >> throw together a draft and throw it at -hackers. > >Actually, throwing it at -hackers is probably counterproductive. >Throw it at cvs-committers; these are the people for whom it really >makes a difference. I'll see if I can find the time to do this one day not too far into the future - I can probably adopt part of the "good coding practice" parts from a document I've written for my company. Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 09:32:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16873 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [204.178.32.161]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16868 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 09:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (spork@localhost) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA08539; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:34:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:34:37 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Thomas Arnold cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Frame grabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If you have the frame-grabber, I've got the camera for you... Remember TYCO, the slot car racing people? Well, they came out with a $99 B+W camera with NTSC vid out. The idea is kids can hook it up to the family VCR and have a bargain camcorder of sorts (well, it does have a 20' cable) that is not a big loss if it gets demolished during playtime. So check out Toys-R-Us; they might even have a demo out, but from what I understand, it's got better image quality than the QuickCam, and autoexposure to boot. Charles On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Thomas Arnold wrote: > > Anyone have a suggestion for a simple FrameGrabber for use under FreeBSD? > We have a QuickCAM on the web which kinda sucks becuase the driver doesn't > auto set brightness/contrast so if you turn the lights on you paste the > poor thing. I want to just hook some B&W security cameras up that are > auto level sensing. The CX100 by ImageNation looks supported but is kinda > out of the running at $600+. > > Thanks. > > +-----------------------------------------------+ > : Tom Arnold - No relation to Rosanne : > : SysAdmin/Pres - TBI, Ltd ( inna.net ) : > : The Middle Peninsula's Internet Connection : > +-----------------------------------------------+ > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 10:04:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19342 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:04:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (slip139-92-4-122.mu.de.ibm.net [139.92.4.122]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19327; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from vector.jhs.no_domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vector.jhs.no_domain (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA03918; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:08:09 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199702061708.SAA03918@vector.jhs.no_domain> To: Karl Denninger cc: jkh@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked" to deinstall FreeBSD - you heard that right! From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Organization: Vector Systems Ltd. X-Mailer: EXMH 1.6.7, PGP available X-Address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany X-Tel: +49.89.268616 X-Fax: +49.89.2608126 X-ISDN: +49.89.26023276 X-Web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Feb 1997 17:23:04 CST." <199702052323.RAA18464@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 18:08:08 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Karl, CC Jordan & chat@ I'm not happy about your cross posting, so this is reduced to chat@ ... Security is not worth reading about, for the majority of current@ & hackers@ subscribers, let alone the bulk of CD purchasers ! Proof: `echo who security | mail majordomo@freebsd.org` | wc Repeat with current & hackers, & number of CDs sold. This may be heresy for you as an ISV, or for most of us as responsible programmers ... but it's hard to refute numbers ! Not many people think it worth their time to read the security list ! A CD vendor such as WC Inc (`Our Sponsor' ;-) would probably not take kindly to delaying sales accruing to a forthcoming release, for a security problem, as all release delays cost WC Inc. money in number of CDs sold per year. FreeBSD is Not a USA timezone operation, it is a world wide operation that needs time to respond. Cancelling & recalling any release would be something I guess many in core & maybe wider would want time to consider, whenever mooted, Time means 24 hours to cover all timezones + more time to discuss. It's not suprising your demand for a recall of a release within hours was not exactly greeted with open arms: - Security isn't very important to `our' (not `your') market (see 'domo ;-) - Delaying Releases costs WC money. - FreeBSD big decisions take more than 24 hours. Calling for a release to be pulled within hours instead of days, does not fit FreeBSD. An ISV wanting fast local timezone action, does have the option of _Buying_ a BSD maintenance contract, from the nearest FreeBSD commercial consultants, try http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/freebsd/consultants.html (Yes I am on that list, No I'm _not_ trying to attract your clientel :-) or _Buying_ support from BSDI, or _Paying_ Lemis for Linux support etc. If you stay with FreeBSD, please file your diffs using send-pr (through a nom-de-plume if you want, if you reckon they'll have a better chance after the recent fire storm ;-), By all means publish diffs in web space too if you want, (I do that, for stuff I haven't got round to submitting, or others haven't got round to committing, for instance I maintain src/ & ports/ shaped diff trees indexed from http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/src/src.html ) But Please do not set up Yet_Another_BSD. I deplore your threat to start a 4th BSD to add to FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, BSDI, Linux, SCO (Server & Unixware), & all the other Unixes. I wish you Zero Success for a 4th BSD: do not give the MS-Win & NT mob reason to further criticise our fractured Unix market segment. Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 11:15:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA23069 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.global2000.net (root@ut-dialup-14.global2000.net [204.249.217.175]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA23051 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (eagriff@localhost) by localhost.global2000.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA00427 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:12:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.global2000.net: eagriff owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:12:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Eric A. Griff" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Blacklisting and being "asked".. Personality conflicts. In-Reply-To: <199702060015.QAA22980@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hey folks Whassup with that? This note is really nothing to do with that thread, other than examples in the Auto Business, and that they don't work. Comment, whatever welcome! I started using FreeBSD about 4 months ago, and recently jumped into the -current stuff, as I like the latest and greatest stuff, and will be developing some commercial software (auto industry) that will be at home in FreeBSD. My opinion about FreeBSD is expressed by my signature. It's for this reason that I am using FreeBSD for my development environment, as it works, and in the mail lists, I usually find answers without asking. The problem, too much bickering, and cross posts. This thread with replys and all is spanning -chat, -current, and -security . And is wasting a lot of time/space. I have been in the marketing, and sales field for about 10 years, and 3 years specifically in the Automotive Retail Management area. Have seen a lot of childish arguments, conflicts of personalities, a few fist fights (among professionals/execs), and many other situations. When I get into something, I go full force. The Blacklisting thread is one that doesn't solve anything whatsoever! It just creates a lotta argument, and a lotta new, and more heated discussions. DAMMIT! We are adults here. And must accept that nobody agrees with everything. Everyone is bound to have a few ideas that are a little different. I have had to fire a few of my best salesmen in cases where they wouldn't except that other people have some ideas too. And that they couldn't have it 100% there way. These were non-team players. A team has to be a team! There has to be common ground in a team. There has to be a way where ideas can be put in without being hammered, and open minds that will look at it and at least way it up and decide where it gos. This should be a team effort. Further, what is the goal here? Mission? That is where focus should be. Not on personalities. When the focus is on personalities, wars happen. Look at the presidential elections. That was a lot of personality, with focus on issues secondly. There are a lot of people that voted on personalities. Yet, where the hell is our healthcare system? (Same dammed thing 4 years ago). As long as they do personalities, they have it made. How many people remember what they promised? A hell of a lot less than what they did 30 years ago. And out of that, the % of delivery is even less. The goal is to deliver the best Dammed OS this side of anywhere, and with a licensing structure that is unbeatable. It's a hell of a concept, and could bring a lot together. Free! I weant by a small 3 car lot in the middle of nowhere a few weeks ago. On this lot, there were about 7 people pulled in to see the 3 cars. You know why? One in big letters said FREE! The fine print that they stopped and saw was "When you buy the car next to it". The name is marketing. Free is at the top of the list of marketers.. They know it sells. Now, at the same time. The Commercial Co's no doubt know that too. With the name out there, with a good rep, they will come. As when marketing there products, the word Free will fit there somewhere. They may come in droves. Back to personalities. If they are always at the top, and not the primary purpose, all will eventually fail. If the primary purpose is put at the top (The Mission, The Focus, The Goal), it will surely fly, and fly well, since in unity, it is so large, that even Bill Gates couldn't get in the way, cause he would be a geo in the path of a solid train goin a 100 miles an hour! Thank you very much. -Eric --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Eric A. Griff | Griff Enterprises | Owner | RD#1 Box 372 | | Oneida, NY 13421 | eagriff@global2000.net | USA | Running: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT FreeBSD | | The best OS this side of anywhere! | Auto Dealers solutions | | for the year 2000 and beyond! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 13:53:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08785 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08776 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:53:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA12054; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:53:19 -0800 (PST) To: Leonard Chua cc: jkh@tme.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My resignation as president of the FreeBSD Project. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:46:52 PST." Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 13:53:18 -0800 Message-ID: <12051.855265998@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Are you still suppose to be called "Mr. President" even though you > > > are really an X-"Mr. President"? > > > > Actually, at this point my name changes to an obscure glyph that can > > only be displayed in the KOI-8 font. You can just refer to me as "the > > core team member formerly known as the president" if it's easier. > > Jordan > > And in a couple of months, I suppose you'll be referred to as "the > member" :) That's *already* been the case since I was 15.. :-) [Chorus: "Yeah, in your *dreams*, buddy!"] From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 14:17:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA10136 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:17:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from logues.rhn.orst.edu (logues.RHN.ORST.EDU [128.193.139.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10126 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (stevel@localhost) by logues.rhn.orst.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA04173; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:16:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:16:32 -0800 (PST) From: stevel To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Leonard Chua , jkh@tme.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My resignation as president of the FreeBSD Project. In-Reply-To: <12051.855265998@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Are you still suppose to be called "Mr. President" even though you > > > > are really an X-"Mr. President"? > > That's *already* been the case since I was 15.. :-) > > [Chorus: "Yeah, in your *dreams*, buddy!"] Finally! - good to see some light heartedness back in these mailing lists :) -STEVEl From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 14:36:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11451 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11443 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from caught.inna.net (caught.inna.net [206.151.66.7]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA25587; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:50:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:13:29 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Arnold To: spork cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Frame grabbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, spork wrote: > If you have the frame-grabber, I've got the camera for you... Remember > TYCO, the slot car racing people? Well, they came out with a $99 B+W > camera with NTSC vid out. I have tons of Security cameras that are auto exposure etc. Real nice for a plug in and ignore camera. I need a frame grabber. One option is to grab a Creative Video Spigot but I haven't heard any good things about it. +-----------------------------------------------+ : Tom Arnold - No relation to Rosanne : : SysAdmin/Pres - TBI, Ltd ( inna.net ) : : The Middle Peninsula's Internet Connection : +-----------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 14:48:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12122 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:48:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from toth.ferginc.com (toth.ferginc.com [205.139.23.69]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12070 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from toth.hq.ferg.com by toth.ferginc.com (You/Wish) with SMTP id RAA16981; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:46:57 -0500 (EST) Posted-Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:46:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:46:55 -0500 (EST) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@toth.hq.ferg.com Reply-To: branson.matheson@ferginc.com To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jkh@tme.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My resignation as president of the FreeBSD Project. In-Reply-To: <12051.855265998@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > And in a couple of months, I suppose you'll be referred to as "the > > member" :) > > That's *already* been the case since I was 15.. :-) > [Chorus: "Yeah, in your *dreams*, buddy!"] Ahem... you are snowed :-) Seriously.. I think that although initally we will suffer from the loss of the steady hand that you have guiding us with for quite some time now. This will be a good thing for all sides. I know that you have been involved with this thing since the inception ( like when we got the 5 1/2 inch 386BSD 0.1 floppies snail mailed to us :-) I think I still have a few of those around ) and it has certianly been a hard road to walk. However, I think that all groups need a head. Mabey not with the control/responsibilities that the title "president" implies .. but somone has to make decisions. I think that the core should consider creating _some_ position for "the buck stops here" type of questions. To " the member wannabe " I say thanks for the time you have given us and I hope to see you remain involved with the core team for some time to come... on the other hand your cats, and probably some woman you have not met yet, wouldn't mind seeing you have a life again. But wherever your consience takes you. Know that your accomplishments, along with the rest of the core team, have effected many lives and given us somthing with which lots of us have built careers out of and is a part of our lives. So thank you. -branson ============================================================================= Branson Matheson | Ferguson Enterprises | If you're falling off a System Administrator | W: (804) 874-7795 | mountian, you might as well Unix, Perl, WWW | branson@ferginc.com | attempt to fly. -Delenn From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 15:21:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14331 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from freenet.hamilton.on.ca (0@main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14324 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:21:23 -0800 (PST) From: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca [199.212.94.66]) by freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25804; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA13537; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:23:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:23:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702062323.SAA13537@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> X-Mailer: slnr v.2.13 as ported to FreeBSD To: jfieber@indiana.edu cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mail trivia Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In Email, John Fieber wrote: > > Your task is to guess the top ten mail clients, and their rank. > Extra credit goes to whoever can guess actual percentages. 1) Unknown 2) Elm 3) xmh 4) slnr :) :) > Grepping the archives considered cheating. Well, I already checked the ones in my inbox to make sure I wasn't making a laughingstock of myself... After doing that, I'd have to add Mutt and Netscape (Mozilla). Fourth and fifth, respectively. OTOH, since this goes back two years and those two probably weren't in use as much back then in the Dark Ages... > Next week... name the top 20 posters! Any stats for highest total lines posted (discluding source patches that should've been ftp'd somewhere)? terry@lambert.org should have a comfortable lead, there! ;) -- tIM...HOEk "[Your] approach is in error; it is bad engineering methodology." - Terry Lambert. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 16:21:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17401 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA17394 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA13652; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:21:22 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA10585; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:20:12 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:20:12 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My resignation as president of the FreeBSD Project. References: <199702060726.XAA22613@newport.ece.uci.edu> <28487.855215002@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <28487.855215002@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Feb 5, 1997 23:43:22 -0800 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Actually, at this point my name changes to an obscure glyph that can > only be displayed in the KOI-8 font. You can just refer to me as "the > core team member formerly known as the president" if it's easier. I can see it now: öÏÒÄÁΠèÕÂÂÁÒÄ :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 17:15:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA20302 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from tierzero.apana.org.au (root@tierzero.apana.org.au [203.14.158.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA20277 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:15:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from hatch.ching.apana.org.au (hatch.ching.apana.org.au [202.12.89.194]) by tierzero.apana.org.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23024; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:44:36 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <32FA8218.5C6F@ching.apana.org.au> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 11:45:04 +1030 From: Martin Bull Organization: APANA = internet access with a smile :-) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: branson.matheson@ferginc.com CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jkh@tme.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My resignation as president of the FreeBSD Project. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Branson Matheson wrote: > > However, I think that all groups need a head. Mabey not with the > control/responsibilities that the title "president" implies .. but > somone has to make decisions. I think that the core should consider > creating _some_ position for "the buck stops here" type of questions. I cant agree with this, I think Im basically a communist at heart and although it takes longer to make decsions, the democratic one's "feel" better because the group has ownership, not like being dictated to by a president, even if he is a benign dictator like Jordon :-) > > To " the member wannabe " I say thanks for the time you have given us > and I hope to see you remain involved with the core team for some > time to come... on the other hand your cats, and probably some woman > you have not met yet, wouldn't mind seeing you have a life again. But > wherever your consience takes you. Know that your accomplishments, > along with the rest of the core team, have effected many lives and > given us somthing with which lots of us have built careers out of and > is a part of our lives. So thank you. I couldnt have put this better, so thanks Jordon, I have been lurking for 6 months now and FreeBSD's the system for me...with its 'minor' bugs and all :-) Martin From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 17:24:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA21014 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21008 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:24:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id LAA08520; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:54:29 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702070124.LAA08520@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Audible ping response changes to ping.c In-Reply-To: from Daniel O'Callaghan at "Feb 7, 97 10:15:33 am" To: danny@panda.hilink.com.au (Daniel O'Callaghan) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:54:28 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Daniel O'Callaghan stands accused of saying: > >>> Well, I can take the sed and sh alternatives as an indication that I >>> should remove the -z flag from tar, but I think I'll just put the -a flag >>> into ping. >> >> The case for the z flag in tar is the installation media argument >> when bootstrapping a new system to run FreeBSD for the first time. ... which is of course why the installer uses pax. The case for the 'z' flag to tar is that that's what it comes with, and other people do it. >> Also, the z flag runs an external compressor/decompressor. By that >> logic, you should call an external "beep" program if you are trying to >> justify adding the flag using "the "rule of similar existing practice". I would submit that Danny _is_ using an external program, namely the console driver, and is simply improving ping's usage of it. Nyaah. > Hmmmm. :-) Ignore him; he's just trying to rattle you 8) > Danny -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 19:41:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28747 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28723 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:41:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA10004; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:40:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:40:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mail trivia In-Reply-To: <199702062323.SAA13537@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Feb 1997 hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca wrote: > In Email, John Fieber wrote: > > > > Your task is to guess the top ten mail clients, and their rank. > > Extra credit goes to whoever can guess actual percentages. > > 1) Unknown > 2) Elm > 3) xmh > 4) slnr :) :) Not too many people interested in this trivia I guess. Anyway, the mailers that beat a 1% share are: 1) Pine 30.92% 2) Elm 21.37% 3) Netscape 7.64% 4) Window Eudora 4.35% 5) Pegasus 1.71% 6) exmh 1.32% 7) Microsoft Mail 1.07% Other 5.27% Unknown 26.35% > Well, I already checked the ones in my inbox to make sure I wasn't making > a laughingstock of myself... After doing that, I'd have to add Mutt and > Netscape (Mozilla). Fourth and fifth, respectively. OTOH, since this Netscape's rank surprised me a bit. Mutt is down at 0.39%, but would probably be a bit higher if the time frame was limited. XFmail, at 0.98% almost makes the 1% mark, but slnr comes in at an undistinguished 0.06%. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 20:29:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03055 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:29:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from po1.glue.umd.edu (root@po1.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.44]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03043 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from skipper.eng.umd.edu (skipper.eng.umd.edu [129.2.103.24]) by po1.glue.umd.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA18323; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:28:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by skipper.eng.umd.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA05258; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:28:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: skipper.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 23:28:56 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@skipper.eng.umd.edu To: John Fieber cc: hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mail trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, John Fieber wrote: > On Thu, 6 Feb 1997 hoek@freenet.hamilton.on.ca wrote: > > > In Email, John Fieber wrote: > > > > > > Your task is to guess the top ten mail clients, and their rank. > > > Extra credit goes to whoever can guess actual percentages. > > > > 1) Unknown > > 2) Elm > > 3) xmh > > 4) slnr :) :) > > Not too many people interested in this trivia I guess. Oh, I was interested, but couldn't make the wildest guess. The FreeBSD crowd has access to too many diverse tools. I thought that mutt would show up, and exmh, too. Anyway, > the mailers that beat a 1% share are: > > 1) Pine 30.92% > 2) Elm 21.37% > 3) Netscape 7.64% > 4) Window Eudora 4.35% > 5) Pegasus 1.71% > 6) exmh 1.32% > 7) Microsoft Mail 1.07% > > Other 5.27% > Unknown 26.35% > > > Well, I already checked the ones in my inbox to make sure I wasn't making > > a laughingstock of myself... After doing that, I'd have to add Mutt and > > Netscape (Mozilla). Fourth and fifth, respectively. OTOH, since this > > Netscape's rank surprised me a bit. Mutt is down at 0.39%, but > would probably be a bit higher if the time frame was limited. > XFmail, at 0.98% almost makes the 1% mark, but slnr comes in at > an undistinguished 0.06%. > > -john > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 10:56:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA12256 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hda.hda.com (ip81-max1-fitch.ziplink.net [199.232.245.81]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA12251 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:56:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA03017; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:51:01 -0500 From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199702071851.NAA03017@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: My resignation as president of the FreeBSD Project. In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Feb 7, 97 10:52:42 am" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:51:00 -0500 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yes. "Citizen Jordan," much like "Citizen Kane". Years from now, > when his BSD empire has crumbled into dust, he'll pass quietly holding > a novelty deamon toy from some Usenix muttering the word "freefall." It would of course be a stuffed daemon plushy. > P.S. Bouns points for anybody that can tell me where Orson Wells got > "rosebud" from. :-) First Jordan's member and now this. Sheesh. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 7 11:10:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA13362 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:10:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13336 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:10:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 0.56 #1) id E0vsvgH-0000gn-00; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:09:53 -0700 To: Peter Dufault Subject: Re: My resignation as president of the FreeBSD Project. Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Feb 1997 13:51:00 EST." <199702071851.NAA03017@hda.hda.com> References: <199702071851.NAA03017@hda.hda.com> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 12:09:53 -0700 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199702071851.NAA03017@hda.hda.com> Peter Dufault writes: : It would of course be a stuffed daemon plushy. Of course... I had a mental block on plushy :-) : > P.S. Bouns points for anybody that can tell me where Orson Wells got : > "rosebud" from. :-) : : First Jordan's member and now this. Sheesh. Well, in context, I wasn't referring to Jordan as rosebud, merely that freefall would be appropriate because Hurst's nickname for the favorite part of his mistress was rosebud, so I'd imagine that Jordan's favorite part of the BSD project is freefall. Heck, for all I know, he could be something else altogether... Just the image of Citizen Jordan was too strong to pass up. Hopefully I didn't go over board with it :-) Warner From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 21:28:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA28137 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 21:28:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28130 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 21:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id PAA09401; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 15:34:06 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) id OAA01344; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:21:08 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19970208142107.QY43981@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:21:07 +0100 From: andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm) To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wradar! References: <199702040208.MAA09052@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60-PL0 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199702040208.MAA09052@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from "Michael Smith" on Feb 4, 1997 12:38:54 +1030 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > > If you're interested (at all) in the applications to which FreeBSD systems > are being put, have a look around http://www.irf.se/mst/EsrangeMST.html. Well, congradulations, looks nice ... BTW, where's the "powered by FreeBSD" logo on your Web Server ? Would be nice if you could place the sticker there and maybe a link which points to a page describing your machine ? I think then we could place you to the list of sites on the FreeBSD home page ;-) Does that sound ok for you ?! ;-) -- andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH Andreas Klemm ___/\/\/ Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de pgp p-key http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html >>> powered by <<< ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz >>> FreeBSD <<< From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 22:46:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA01876 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 22:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01867 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 22:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id RAA17383; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:16:28 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702090646.RAA17383@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Wradar! In-Reply-To: <19970208142107.QY43981@klemm.gtn.com> from Andreas Klemm at "Feb 8, 97 02:21:07 pm" To: andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:16:27 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andreas Klemm stands accused of saying: > > BTW, where's the "powered by FreeBSD" logo on your Web Server ? It's not "our" webserver; it belongs to IRF. We're not in Sweden 8) AFAIK, it's a Sun of some sort. At some point, we may come up with a nice web-based interface to the radar controller, but not yet. IRF and ESRAD are "just" customers of ours. > Would be nice if you could place the sticker there and maybe a link > which points to a page describing your machine ? I keep meaning to write something about the hardware side of our radar systems and hang it off our "real" homepage. > I think then we could place you to the list of sites on the FreeBSD > home page ;-) Does that sound ok for you ?! ;-) If/when I/we put something up on our 'real' homepage, I'll certainly submit it - this was just an FYI, not a grab for ad space. (Hmm, how many -chat readers are likely to be looking for an MST+ radar system? 8) > andreas@klemm.gtn.com /\/\___ Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 8 23:51:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA05362 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (root@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA05354 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 23:51:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from grfpc1 (monty-port11.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.21]) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA03409; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 18:50:37 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <32FD8FC5.587D@shoal.net.au> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 18:50:13 +1000 From: Andrew Perry X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dean Anderson CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTP site References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This belongs on chat If you don't want an emotional answer (and i'm not saying it was (i'm only from the outer reaches, not the core/development team)) then you shouldn't attack the way you HAVE. These are just people doing the best they can under the time constraints they have imposed on them. If you want an example of SMARMY ARROGANT MESSAGES then see your first post to the list!!! GET YOUR OWN SHRINK, mine's BUSY!!! Andrew Perry andrew@shoal.net.au (gotta count before I send this, I know it's a bad idea but i really want tooo) (1,2,3,4,5,6,bugger it that'll do) ***(ps: if any list reader thinks I'm out of my place then let me know, on the list or off it, I'll shut up. I've thought about it but I think the people running the show need LOUD support when required and this may be one of those times. (in superscript: but i'll take any constructive criticism if i'm making a lousy situation worse!) Dean Anderson wrote: > > >Given a series of messages like those from dean@aV8.com, should I > >use rand or rand48 to calculate the probability that anyone reading > >the FreeBSD lists that were addressed would > > Given the smarmy, arrogant messages I have received from from some from the > freebsd site, it is clear that the ugly problems that arose during the > closing of the CSRG are still alive and strong with the freebsd crowd. No > wonder everyone is running linux. I'm going to run bsdi instead. Its > doesn't appear that those on this list have the world view necessary to > write OS code anyway. > > > 1) call upon his company to "make technology fly!" or > > Your problems aren't really technical. > > > 2) consider the LPF in the same way they did before. > > What does that have to do with anything? Am I supposed to "feel bad"? I > don't. If you want to change your position on software patents and user > interface copyright because you don't like me, thats too bad, But you have > already demonstrated that you make emotional decisions instead of rational > decisions, and that you can't take criticism. Most likely a low self > image. See a shrink. > > Dean Anderson dean@aV8.com | dean@lpf.org > We make technology fly! See us for | Stop Software Patents before they > Networking, Firewalls, WWW and more. | stop you! Contact me for more info > Check out http://www.av8.com for info | or send mail to lpf@lpf.org > President | President > Plain Aviation,Inc | League for Programming Freedom