From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 01:05:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA08098 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (root@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA08080; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from grfpc1 (monty-port11.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.21]) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA03955; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:04:39 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <32FDA11F.6D14@shoal.net.au> Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 20:04:15 +1000 From: Andrew Perry X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: questions freebsd CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: normal ftp blah blah --> newbie list References: <199702090230.SAA17725@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (maybe this belongs on chat?) I'd love to if I had the experience, sort of penance for the newbie questions I've asked. If you start a list like this I don't have the qualifications to meet your criteria but would subscribe to the list to answer any newbie questions that I can (ok they are few but I try!). If your looking for people close to meeting your criteria the people who've helped me the most are::... (sorry, can't dob them in, mail me privately, their time may not permit!!) It may be an idea to change questions to your newbie list with a few priveliged priviledged (however you spell it) users who can panic to more guru type users as the need arises. Hey, maybe it'll work, maybe not. But I've seen a few questions (ok very few) go unanswered on the list, maybe having a few people moderate the list with somewhere to go will satisfy even the dumbest (OK some of mine!!) questions. BTW, whoever draws the short straw, sorry, whoever gets this exalted position, you may need to keep a few of your replies for resending (i've seen a few repeat topics in my very short time, tried to reply to the ones I know to save the guys who know from endless repetition). just my 2 bobs worth Andrew Perry andrew@shoal.net.au Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Dave Hummel wrote: > > > > > [snip] > > this... it may be a good idea to have a FreeBSD-newbie list. I appreciate the > > patience that gurus had had with me over my time on this list, but I've learned > > that if I am confused about what's going on, there are usually others who are > > just as confused. > > I understand that those of you who are knowlegeable don't have time to > > answer questions like..."What the heck is FreeBSD?" etc... > > I think the potential for FreeBSD is great...there are many people who > > are just too intimidated by the whole thing to get into it. There are people > > who stumble onto your site who don't know anything about Unix/BSD, but have a > > genuine interest. I say let's get as many supporters as possible. FreeBSD is a > > great OS, but it's hard to get started for many people (I'm the only one at my > > school that I know of (the rest are into Linux and SCO)). > > My idea is to let newbies answer other newbies' questions and have > > someone moderate. That way there will be a forum for those of us who ask dumb > > questions as well as those who are too afraid to ask dumb questions. > > Dave, > i thinnk that this is a very good idea. we need a volunteer > to step froward and moderate the list (i cant devote the > time to do the list justice.) > > the volunteer > > should be familiar with majordomo (not-critical). > > should be experienced with FreeBSD, so as to be able > to distinuish the newuser questions from the more > interesting ones that may arise (critical) > > should be willing to augment the FAQ with the results > of the mailing list (near-critical to critical) > > have an account on freefall (desireable) > > be on very good terms with the doc folks and have > commit privileges..... > > hmm...seems that we need to grow someone for this position. > > volunteers? > jmb > -- > Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG > FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ > PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 06:38:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA18464 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 06:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from moonpie.w8hd.org (moonpie.w8hd.org [198.252.159.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA18459 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 06:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29973 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Feb 1997 14:38:44 -0000 Date: 9 Feb 1997 09:38:44 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 09:38:44 -0500 (EST) From: Kim Culhan To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Wradar! In-Reply-To: <199702090646.RAA17383@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Feb 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > IRF and ESRAD are "just" customers of ours. > > > Would be nice if you could place the sticker there and maybe a link > > which points to a page describing your machine ? Yes, what part of the system do the FreeBSD machines control ? > If/when I/we put something up on our 'real' homepage, I'll certainly > submit it - this was just an FYI, not a grab for ad space. (Hmm, how > many -chat readers are likely to be looking for an MST+ radar system? > 8) Hmm.. I'd like one, whats the price range ? :) kim -- kimc@w8hd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 07:50:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA21499 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA21485 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 07:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA23319 for freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:50:33 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id QAA13831; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:32:20 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:32:20 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3.0-970124-SNAP: man page search order References: <10384.855499008@critter.dk.tfs.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <10384.855499008@critter.dk.tfs.com>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Feb 9, 1997 15:36:48 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >(If you're going to argue that Perl doesn't have a syntax at all, i'll > >counter-argue that Tcl isn't a language at all, but rather an > >extensible interpreter, something like FORTH. :-)) > > Exactly. And as anyone who have used FORTH knows, you can't heap more > praise on a language than that :-) BACKWARDS THINK IF "understand" ELSE "hmm" : :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 08:23:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22676 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22668 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 08:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id CAA18358; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 02:53:31 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702091623.CAA18358@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Wradar! In-Reply-To: from Kim Culhan at "Feb 9, 97 09:38:44 am" To: kimc@w8hd.org (Kim Culhan) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 02:53:30 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kim Culhan stands accused of saying: > > > > > Would be nice if you could place the sticker there and maybe a link > > > which points to a page describing your machine ? > > Yes, what part of the system do the FreeBSD machines control ? All of it; the transmitter is 12x6kw phase-controlled power blocks driving 6 independent clusters of the array (144 elements total), each of the power blocks is hung off an RS-485 bus run by the BSD box. On the receiver side, the receivers are also on the '485 bus, and the data acquisition system (12 channels at 6Ms/s) is run off a dual 16-bit digital I/O card in the same BSD box. The system is a 120MHz pentium with 64M of memory and a 2G disk (local spool only 8) Here's a few salient observations (note that the system is currently suffering SCSI problems that limit its uptime to a few days at most) : mstradar:/home/radar>uptime 5:16PM up 4 days, 3:36, 1 user, load averages: 0.38, 0.48, 0.48 mstradar:/home/radar>ps aux USER PID %CPU %MEM VSZ RSS TT STAT STARTED TIME COMMAND radar 181 40.4 0.0 3768 2492 ??- RN Wed01PM 863:13.79 exptd: experim radar 203 6.8 0.0 13036 9632 ?? RN Wed01PM 1538:45.94 /usr/local/rs The first of those is the acquisition program, the second is the analysis. Here's a few days of raw data : mstradar:/bifrost/data1>ls -l total 2628832 -rw-r--r-- 1 radar sys 159207984 Feb 7 00:55 19970206_fca_1200.raw -rw-r--r-- 1 radar sys 572187600 Feb 7 01:01 19970206_fca_300.raw -rw-r--r-- 1 radar sys 159207984 Feb 8 00:56 19970207_fca_1200.raw -rw-r--r-- 1 radar sys 572187600 Feb 8 01:01 19970207_fca_300.raw -rw-r--r-- 1 radar sys 159207984 Feb 9 00:57 19970208_fca_1200.raw -rw-r--r-- 1 radar sys 572187600 Feb 9 01:01 19970208_fca_300.raw -rw-r--r-- 1 radar sys 108164208 Feb 9 17:16 19970209_fca_1200.raw -rw-r--r-- 1 radar sys 388096688 Feb 9 17:18 19970209_fca_300.raw > > If/when I/we put something up on our 'real' homepage, I'll certainly > > submit it - this was just an FYI, not a grab for ad space. (Hmm, how > > many -chat readers are likely to be looking for an MST+ radar system? > > 8) > > Hmm.. I'd like one, whats the price range ? :) Thet depends on how ambitious you want to get 8) A small system may run you a lot less than US$100K, for a big site like Esrange you'll be spending lots on earthworks and antennae, and the gear itself will pale by comparison 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:12:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26588 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:12:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu (albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA26583 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu by albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) with ESMTP id NAA09807; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:14:14 -0500 Received: by kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/4.0) id ; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:12:11 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 13:12:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199702091812.NAA27046@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: eivind@dimaga.com CC: wollman@lcs.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3.0.32.19970206180051.00abec10@dimaga.com> (message from Eivind Eklund on Thu, 06 Feb 1997 18:00:52 +0100) Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Anyway; I would not recommend using ANSI prototypes and K&R style > definitions - > this can create some weird parameter conversions which are unlikely to give > much problems on a machine with pure 32-bit parameter passing, but can > potentially give weird problems on later ports. If my understanding is correct, having an ANSI prototype and a K&R definition is the same as having an ANSI prototype and an ANSI definition, or an ANSI definition before any calls, as far as calls within the same object file go. (For calls outside the same object file, there can be some differences between the promotions used for prototypeless calls and prototyped calls, but that's a different issue.) Is this incorrect? >> 5) Never use NULL. Write it `0', and provide casts as appropriate. > This is makes it more difficult to see, and provide less typechecking. > Casts must be provided as appropriate, of course. I have to agree with you here. Using NULL makes it clear that you are referring to a pointer. It's kind of like using `null' or `not' in Lisp. Moreover, assuming the OS vendor (I know we're mainly talking FreeBSD here, but no reason not to encourage portable code writing) has properly #defined NULL as ((void*)0) on compilers which grok the void* type, and ((char*)0) on the others, then it will be properly handled in a prototypeless call without a cast on machines where sizeof(int) != sizeof(void*). (If I recall correctly, pointer types *never* have default promotions, so machines which have different pointer formats for different types will still die, but that's another issue.) >> 11) Don't use in lint(1) ``control comments''. Nobody uses lint. > I've just turned into "nobody". :) Although lint was handy in earlier days, I find that most compilers' warnings are better now. I typically use `gcc -Wall -W -Wbad-function-cast -Wcast-align -Wcast-qual -Wconversion -Wpointer-arith -Wshadow -Wwrite-strings' in my code during development, and it helps me catch more bonehead mistakes than lint ever did. If you use lint, I have no problems seeing control comments now and again. But, to quote rms, "Don't make your code ugly to placate lint." Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the FSF's, my employer's, or my dog's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 10:51:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29775 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29770 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:51:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) with UUCP id TAA14569; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:49:46 +0100 (MET) Received: from oo7 (oo7.dimaga.com [192.0.0.65]) by dimaga.com (8.7.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA02918; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:38:56 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970209193855.00ab2b40@dimaga.com> X-Sender: eivind@dimaga.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 19:38:57 +0100 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail Cc: wollman@lcs.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 01:12 PM 2/9/97 -0500, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: [Correct description of prototype-issues with K&R style definitions removed] > >Is this incorrect? No, it is correct. However, unless everybody is _very_ careful, it is likely that we end up with some functions being defined somewhere their prototype is not in scope. This can cause weirdness. >I have to agree with you here. Using NULL makes it clear that you are >referring to a pointer. It's kind of like using `null' or `not' in >Lisp. > >Moreover, assuming the OS vendor (I know we're mainly talking FreeBSD >here, but no reason not to encourage portable code writing) has >properly #defined NULL as ((void*)0) on compilers which grok the void* >type, and ((char*)0) on the others, then it will be properly handled >in a prototypeless call without a cast on machines where >sizeof(int) != sizeof(void*). (If I recall correctly, pointer types >*never* have default promotions, so machines which have different >pointer formats for different types will still die, but that's another >issue.) This is also correct :) > >> 11) Don't use in lint(1) ``control comments''. Nobody uses lint. > > I've just turned into "nobody". :) > >Although lint was handy in earlier days, I find that most compilers' >warnings are better now. I typically use `gcc -Wall -W >-Wbad-function-cast -Wcast-align -Wcast-qual -Wconversion >-Wpointer-arith -Wshadow -Wwrite-strings' in my code during >development, and it helps me catch more bonehead mistakes than lint >ever did. > >If you use lint, I have no problems seeing control comments now and >again. But, to quote rms, "Don't make your code ugly to placate >lint." I'm using a very powerful commerical lint called flexelint - http://www.gimpel.com for more info. It is _way_ better on error reporting than gcc. If gcc had been good enough, how come machine/endian.h still has a non-paranthesed expression for NTOHL, just inviting the users to create bugs? :) (I'll see if I can get at least all the header files fixed reasonably soon - but I've got some other tasks to finish first) Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ eivind@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 11:14:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01150 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu (albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA01132 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu by albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) with ESMTP id OAA10617; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:15:41 -0500 Received: by kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/4.0) id ; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:13:38 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:13:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199702091913.OAA27166@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: eivind@dimaga.com CC: wollman@lcs.mit.edu, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <3.0.32.19970209193855.00ab2b40@dimaga.com> (message from Eivind Eklund on Sun, 09 Feb 1997 19:38:57 +0100) Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>Is this incorrect? >No, it is correct. However, unless everybody is _very_ careful, it is >likely that we end up with some functions being defined somewhere their >prototype is not in scope. This can cause weirdness. Not with you. I thought that an ANSI definition acted precisely as a K&R definition and an ANSI declaration if the function has not been declared, and K&R definition with checking against the prototype if it has, so an ANSI definition will emit the same code as a K&R definition. The only time we get wierdness is when a function is *called* with its prototype being out of scope. Mind you, I was still learning C during the K&R -> ANSI move, so feel free to tell me that I misunderstood then. >>Although lint was handy in earlier days, I find that most compilers' >>warnings are better now. I typically use `gcc -Wall -W >I'm using a very powerful commerical lint called flexelint - >http://www.gimpel.com for more info. I've never heard of a commercial lint. I'll have to check it out. >It is _way_ better on error reporting than gcc. If gcc had been good >enough, how come machine/endian.h still has a non-paranthesed expression >for NTOHL, just inviting the users to create bugs? :) A point. Compilers will emit warnings wien it's convenient, which usually means spots in the emitted code that are spotty. I'll have to say, although the preprocessor is one of C's nicer features, it also has the potential to introduce a lot of bugs. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the FSF's, my employer's, or my dog's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 11:45:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03770 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03755 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:45:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) with UUCP id UAA15128; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:43:38 +0100 (MET) Received: from oo7 (oo7.dimaga.com [192.0.0.65]) by dimaga.com (8.7.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA03715; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:43:52 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970209204352.00aa51d0@dimaga.com> X-Sender: eivind@dimaga.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 20:43:53 +0100 To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: cvs commit: CVSROOT avail Cc: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 02:13 PM 2/9/97 -0500, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: >>>Is this incorrect? >>No, it is correct. However, unless everybody is _very_ careful, it is >>likely that we end up with some functions being defined somewhere their >>prototype is not in scope. This can cause weirdness. > >Not with you. I thought that an ANSI definition acted precisely as a >K&R definition and an ANSI declaration if the function has not been >declared, and K&R definition with checking against the prototype if >it has, so an ANSI definition will emit the same code as a K&R >definition. The only time we get wierdness is when a function is >*called* with its prototype being out of scope. I believe there can be different argument promotions, resulting in a different stack frame for functions without prototypes in scope. There are four cases here (I'll use a simple void(short,long) on a hypothetical byte-based machine with 32-bit ints and 16-bit shorts as an example): (K&R and K&R) The function is defined without a prototype in scope, and used without a prototype in scope. offsetof(short) == 0, offsetof(long) == 4. (K&R and ANSI) The function is defined without a prototype in scope, and used with a prototype in scope. Offset for function: short 0, long 4. Offset for call: short 0, long 2. (ANSI and K&R) The function is defined with a prototype in scope, and used without a prototype in scope. Offset for function: short 0, long 2. Offset for call: short 0, long 4. (ANSI and ANSI) The function is defined with a prototype in scope, and used with a prototype in scope. Offsets: short 0, long 4. As you can see, the function need to correspond with it's usage. All K&R calls will widen their arguments to int size - ANSI calls do not need to do this. (Looking it up to check that what I've written is actually correct) Section 6.3.2.2 and 6.4.5.3 of the ISO standard (Use 3 instead of 6 to get references to the ANSI standard or the rationale.) Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ eivind@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 9 14:04:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12348 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12338; Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:04:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199702092204.OAA12338@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: 3.0-970124-SNAP: man page search order To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 14:04:42 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "J Wunsch" at Feb 9, 97 04:32:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > > As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > >(If you're going to argue that Perl doesn't have a syntax at all, i'll > > >counter-argue that Tcl isn't a language at all, but rather an > > >extensible interpreter, something like FORTH. :-)) > > > > Exactly. And as anyone who have used FORTH knows, you can't heap more > > praise on a language than that :-) > > BACKWARDS THINK IF "understand" ELSE "hmm" : > ahhh...now i understand why Yoda spoke like that in the Star Wars movies. may the forth be with you jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 01:26:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21186 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA21180 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from brother.ludd.luth.se (smurfen@brother.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.78]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29789; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:26:16 +0100 Received: from localhost (smurfen@localhost) by brother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA11982; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:26:13 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:26:12 +0100 (MET) From: Ola Persson To: Michael Smith cc: Kim Culhan , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wradar! In-Reply-To: <199702091623.CAA18358@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Funny to see that Esrange has BSD boxes... When I was there in November their main control center ran on Winsludge NiceTry 3.51 ;) /Ola From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 02:18:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA23652 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 02:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgate.flevel.co.uk (root@fgate.flevel.co.uk [194.6.101.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23636; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 02:18:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from netacc@localhost) by fgate.flevel.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.9) id KAA28723; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:18:48 GMT Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.0 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:15:18 +0000 Resent-Message-Id: <32FEF536.15FB7483@flevel.co.uk> Resent-From: NetAccess Manager Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:17:34 -0000 (GMT) Organization: Fourth Level Developments LTD From: Net Access Manager To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Unix Shell Accounts Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If anyone is interested in a commerical supported unix shell account (Running on FreeBSD V3.0) then please contact us for more information. Our shell accounts provide a 10MB quota (Can be increased) which can be used for file space and WWW space. Unlike other ISP's our shell account users are able to run Daemons on their account! Don't miss out - cut out the hassle of University regulations, slow unsupported sites and dialup problems. We can set you up in about 5 mins!! Email: netacc@flevel.co.uk From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 02:38:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24446 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 02:38:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA24441 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 02:38:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id VAA24780; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:08:07 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702101038.VAA24780@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Wradar! In-Reply-To: from Ola Persson at "Feb 10, 97 10:26:12 am" To: smurfen@ludd.luth.se (Ola Persson) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:08:06 +1030 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ola Persson stands accused of saying: > > Funny to see that Esrange has BSD boxes... When I was there in November > their main control center ran on Winsludge NiceTry 3.51 ;) Which part of Esrange were you looking at? It's not quite a tin-shed operation 8) The TV satellite control station was full of VMS systems, the Landsat ground station looked like lots of DOS systems and an old SGI Power Series (but there was noise at some point about BSD boxes appearing there too), and there was a huge mess of DOS/Windows/etc. systems elsewhere... What were you actually doing there? (if you don't mind me being nosy 8) > /Ola -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 03:07:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA25272 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA25265 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:06:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from brother.ludd.luth.se (smurfen@brother.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.78]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01955; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:06:53 +0100 Received: from localhost (smurfen@localhost) by brother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA13240; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:06:50 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:06:49 +0100 (MET) From: Ola Persson To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wradar! In-Reply-To: <199702101038.VAA24780@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > Which part of Esrange were you looking at? It's not quite a tin-shed > operation 8) Well, that was at least my impression :) I was in the main building, the rocket assembly area, launch area and countdown control center and satellite navigation control center. It is noyt very impressive to look at if you ask me, but it was pretty cool still... Fun to know that we actually have a space program here in Sweden allthough it is not very big. > > The TV satellite control station was full of VMS systems, the Landsat > ground station looked like lots of DOS systems and an old SGI Power > Series (but there was noise at some point about BSD boxes appearing > there too), and there was a huge mess of DOS/Windows/etc. systems > elsewhere... Was this in the main building ? There is a building a couple of miles away that is ran by ESA.. I was never there. In the room where they navigated the Tele-X satellite they had some cool 'puters, I never had a chance to check them out real close. > What were you actually doing there? (if you don't mind me being nosy 8) Well, my university has a campus in Kiruna too. Kiruna is the closest city to Esrange. If you have been there you can agree with that it is in the middle of nowhere. Anyway, we went to Kiruna for a party so we visited Esrange at the same time ;) Also, if you have been to Esrange, I will kill you for not tellning me so we could have met :) *smile* /Ola ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Ola Persson | For finger info: smurfen@best.ludd.luth.se | | Porsogarden 8:81 | WWW: http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/smurfen | | 977 54 Lulea | We are Bill Gates of Microsoft. You will be | | SWEDEN | assimilated. Resistance is futile. | | Tel. +46(0)920 15121 | IPhone: smurfen@pub1.ipn.vocaltec.com | ------------- Hiroshima 45 -- Tjernobyl 86 -- Windows 95 -------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 03:24:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA26322 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:24:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA26316 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id VAA24980; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:54:28 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702101124.VAA24980@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Wradar! In-Reply-To: from Ola Persson at "Feb 10, 97 12:06:49 pm" To: smurfen@ludd.luth.se (Ola Persson) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:54:27 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ola Persson stands accused of saying: > > Well, that was at least my impression :) I was in the main building, the > rocket assembly area, launch area and countdown control center and > satellite navigation control center. It is noyt very impressive to look at > if you ask me, but it was pretty cool still... Fun to know that we > actually have a space program here in Sweden allthough it is not very big. It's small enough that it's still fun for the people that are involved, which is a major criterion from my POV 8) > Was this in the main building ? There is a building a couple of miles away > that is ran by ESA.. I was never there. In the room where they navigated > the Tele-X satellite they had some cool 'puters, I never had a chance to > check them out real close. IIRC they were/are Vaxstation 4000's running VMS; in the anteroom to the Tele-X control room was (when I was there) one of the old 11/750's that they used when they were setting it up 8) I never went to the ESA building either, and I hardly ever saw much of it; the road to/from Esrange was too much fun. (Funny how everyone complained about my driving but never wanted to do it themselves...) > Well, my university has a campus in Kiruna too. Kiruna is the closest city > to Esrange. If you have been there you can agree with that it is in the > middle of nowhere. Anyway, we went to Kiruna for a party so we visited > Esrange at the same time ;) It's definitely the middle of nowhere 8) But coming from a country where most of the place is "the middle of nowhere" that's perhaps less of a shock to me. Ah, I understand; you would have done the bus-tour thing. > Also, if you have been to Esrange, I will kill you for not tellning me so > we could have met :) *smile* Cripes, I was there for three weeks and made lots of noise about it both beforehand and afterwards around june last year 8) You were probably off on a fishing holiday like everyone else that was supposed to be helping us! There'll be a few of our people there around April or so, but it's not looking like I'll get to go again this time. Drat. > /Ola -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 03:47:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA26993 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:47:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA26983 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from brother.ludd.luth.se (smurfen@brother.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.78]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03045; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:47:19 +0100 Received: from localhost (smurfen@localhost) by brother.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA13777; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:47:16 +0100 Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 12:47:16 +0100 (MET) From: Ola Persson To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wradar! In-Reply-To: <199702101124.VAA24980@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > It's small enough that it's still fun for the people that are > involved, which is a major criterion from my POV 8) Yeah they seemed to like it. I guess they told you guys about the accident they had there a few years ago. It was a rocket that ignited in the assembly building smashing one technician in to a concrete wall. So the guy I spoke with said that he REALLY liked it. But that he was scared at the same time. > IIRC they were/are Vaxstation 4000's running VMS; in the anteroom to > the Tele-X control room was (when I was there) one of the old 11/750's > that they used when they were setting it up 8) Ahhh, we were about 60 ppl in that room and a guy just said something about was purpose the room served. So I never had time to check out the computers..... Wish I could have though. The NT machine I saw was on the rocket launch countdown control desk. > it; the road to/from Esrange was too much fun. (Funny how everyone > complained about my driving but never wanted to do it themselves...) Bwahahahhaha, that road is cool..... :) > It's definitely the middle of nowhere 8) Heh..... Did you ever check out how big the crash area is ??? It is like huge.... I don't remember the size right now... Also, one time a rocket that was landing drifted in over Norwegian teritory, and they immediately called in an emergency, fearing it might have been a missile from Soviet :) > Ah, I understand; you would have done the bus-tour thing. On Esrange ? No... not really. We went by bus to Esrange, and then the bus drove us to the launch area and back. > Cripes, I was there for three weeks and made lots of noise about it > both beforehand and afterwards around june last year 8) That was before I joined freebsd-chat :=) By the way.... June eh ? he he.... How did ya like our killer mosquitos ? Really they are miniature vampire bats... > You were probably off on a fishing holiday like everyone else that was > supposed to be helping us! Mmmmmmm, if you have ever been up in the Swedish mountains in the summer, up by a lake high up, all alone, or with a few friends, fishing and camping, you would have done the same.... Nothing beats that, nothing. > There'll be a few of our people there around April or so, but it's not > looking like I'll get to go again this time. Drat. What are you guys doing there ? /Ola Ps. Did you fly to Lulea/Kallax airport or did you go directly to Kiruna ? From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 04:04:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA27991 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA27982 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 04:04:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id WAA25190; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:34:11 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702101204.WAA25190@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Wradar! In-Reply-To: from Ola Persson at "Feb 10, 97 12:47:16 pm" To: smurfen@ludd.luth.se (Ola Persson) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:34:10 +1030 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (If this is getting too digressional for people, I'll take it off the list...) Ola Persson stands accused of saying: > > Yeah they seemed to like it. I guess they told you guys about the accident > they had there a few years ago. It was a rocket that ignited in the > assembly building smashing one technician in to a concrete wall. So the > guy I spoke with said that he REALLY liked it. But that he was scared at > the same time. Yeah. So now they test the coil resistance of the igniters _before_ they stick them into the rocket motor. 8) > Ahhh, we were about 60 ppl in that room and a guy just said something > about was purpose the room served. So I never had time to check out the > computers..... Wish I could have though. The NT machine I saw was on the > rocket launch countdown control desk. This is upstairs in the main building? If you'd turned around and looked through the glass wall into the science centre, you would have been looking square at one of our BSD boxes. Nothing terribly fancy, but still, it's a start 8) > Heh..... Did you ever check out how big the crash area is ??? It is like > huge.... I don't remember the size right now... Yeah. They showed us the video of the Lapps cowering behind the big steel shrapnel shields downrange too 8) > By the way.... June eh ? he he.... How did ya like our killer mosquitos ? > Really they are miniature vampire bats... Well, they were very enthusiastic, and about as thick as flies over here, but nothing like as bloodthirsty as I was expecting. Mozzies here are _serious_ about biting, none of this "lets swarm around and fly up 'is nose" business. 8) > Mmmmmmm, if you have ever been up in the Swedish mountains in the summer, > up by a lake high up, all alone, or with a few friends, fishing and > camping, you would have done the same.... Nothing beats that, nothing. Agreed. Except perhaps Norway, although it might just have been those tall leggy Norse girls that made me homesick 8) Still, I'd like to spend more time enjoying myself in that area and less running around looking at radars with other smelly nerds 8) > > There'll be a few of our people there around April or so, but it's not > > looking like I'll get to go again this time. Drat. > > What are you guys doing there ? Upgrading the radar, of course 8) Adding some mixed hardware/software beam-steering capabilities, and trying to work out why the controller explodes every few days with a pile of SCSI errors. Probably upgrade the BSD machines to 2.2 at the same time. One of the beer-heads from the office is going to experience the bizarre oddity that is System Bolaget 8) (and have his head blown off by the berry-powered moonshine that the engineers brew in their spare time 8) > Ps. Did you fly to Lulea/Kallax airport or did you go directly to Kiruna ? Straight from Stockholm to Kiruna. (Actually, Adelaide-Sydney-Bangkok-London-Stockholm-Kiruna nonstop. And I forgot to change my socks. Oops 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 06:49:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05427 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from correo.nexus.es (correo.nexus.es [194.179.50.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA05420 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from www (www.nexus.es [194.179.50.2]) by correo.nexus.es (8.6.12/6.3) with SMTP id PAA19897 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:49:13 GMT Message-ID: <32FFB39A.12D0@nexus.es> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:47:38 -0800 From: Juan Emilio Llor Organization: Nexus Comunicaciones X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: problems with nfs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello! I've that problem: In the starting, the FreeBsd says me: /kernel: arpresolve: can't allocate llinfo nfsd:[77] Can't register with udp portmap mountd[75] Can't register mount All these occurs after an accidentally machine's power-down. What files can I look for? I could replace some damagged files, if I knews what files can be damagged to give me these errors. Thank-you very much! -- ____________________________________________________ Juan Emilio Llor Tel. 93 - 423 08 18 mailto:llor@nexus.es Fax. 93 - 325 48 72 http://www.nexus.es Nexus Comunicaciones, S.A. Gran Via de Les Corts Catalanes, 322 08004 Barcelona _/_/_/_/_/ ____________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 14:16:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28806 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sys4.cambridge.uk.psi.net (sys4.cambridge.uk.psi.net [154.32.106.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA28794 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nadt.org.uk by sys4.cambridge.uk.psi.net (8.7.5/SMI-5.5-UKPSINet) id UAA11358; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 20:10:41 GMT Received: from infodev.nadt.org.uk (infodev.nadt.org.uk [194.155.224.205]) by charlie.nadt.org.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA01313 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:11:30 GMT Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:11:30 GMT Posted-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:11:30 GMT Message-Id: <199702101411.OAA01313@charlie.nadt.org.uk> X-Website: http://www.innotts.co.uk/~nadt X-Sender: robmel@wrcmail X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: chat@freebsd.org From: Robin Melville Subject: New BSD splinter? Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I suppose if a disgruntled hacker does spin off a new variant of FreeBSD it would have to be called FourBSD Just a thought :) Rob. -------------------------------------------------------- Robin Melville, Addiction & Forensic Information Service Nottingham Alcohol & Drug Team (Extn. 49178) Vox: +44 (0)115 952 9478 Fax: +44 (0)115 952 9421 Email: robmel@nadt.org.uk WWW: http://www.innotts.co.uk/nadt/ --------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 14:35:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29588 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from po2.glue.umd.edu (root@po2.glue.umd.edu [129.2.128.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29574 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 14:34:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from protocol.eng.umd.edu (protocol.eng.umd.edu [129.2.98.180]) by po2.glue.umd.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14936; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by protocol.eng.umd.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22340; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:34:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: protocol.eng.umd.edu: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:34:50 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@protocol.eng.umd.edu To: Robin Melville cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New BSD splinter? In-Reply-To: <199702101411.OAA01313@charlie.nadt.org.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Robin Melville wrote: > I suppose if a disgruntled hacker does spin off a new variant of > FreeBSD it would have to be called FourBSD EEcchh! I've heard of people being hung for less ... :-) > > Just a thought :) > > Rob. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Robin Melville, Addiction & Forensic Information Service > Nottingham Alcohol & Drug Team (Extn. 49178) > Vox: +44 (0)115 952 9478 Fax: +44 (0)115 952 9421 > Email: robmel@nadt.org.uk > WWW: http://www.innotts.co.uk/nadt/ > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 16:21:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA05444 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05415 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id RAA04292; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:19:29 -0700 (MST) From: Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199702110019.RAA04292@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: New BSD splinter? To: robmel@nadt.org.uk (Robin Melville) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:19:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199702101411.OAA01313@charlie.nadt.org.uk> from "Robin Melville" at Feb 10, 97 02:11:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robin of Nottingham regaled us with: > I suppose if a disgruntled hacker does spin off a new variant of > FreeBSD it would have to be called FourBSD 2/3 of a PUN is P.U. (Sorry if this doesn't translate for our non-American speaking FreeBSDers.) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 17:18:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA00673 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00655 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id QAA29691 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:55:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA29894; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 01:53:45 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA21419; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 01:43:53 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 01:43:53 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: netacc@fgate.flevel.co.uk (Net Access Manager) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Unix Shell Accounts References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Net Access Manager on Feb 10, 1997 10:17:34 -0000 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Net Access Manager wrote: > If anyone is interested in a commerical supported unix shell account > (Running on FreeBSD V3.0) then please contact us for more information. Uh, apart from the spam to our mailing lists, you must have been travelling in time, right? There's no such thing like a FreeBSD 3.0 here in our universe... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 17:18:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA00718 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:18:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00667 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:18:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id QAA29304 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA29856; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 01:50:30 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA21264; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 01:29:01 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 01:29:00 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hans@brandinnovators.com (Hans Zuidam) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, cmott@srv.net Subject: Re: Bus Errors References: <199702100848.JAA22878@truk.brandinnovators.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199702100848.JAA22878@truk.brandinnovators.com>; from Hans Zuidam on Feb 10, 1997 09:48:15 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to -chat, since it's getting hysterical now...) As Hans Zuidam wrote: > > > What does "Bus error" mean? > > Amazingly enough, a buss error is a memory allocation error. At least it > > was under SunOS. I am guessing FreeBSD is the same on this. > The term "Bus error" originated from the Motorola M68K ... No. Unix hasn't been developed on the m68k. :-) It's been developed on the PDP-11. But you're right, the m68k bus interfaces behave similar to the usual PDP-11 bus interfaces: accesses to bus addresses that are not `wired' will simply hang the bus. The workaround for this was a watchdog timer that caused a processor trap, just the bus error. Looking hard at the signal names, you'll see that the first of them map to the PDP-11 traps. Or does anybody still know what SIGIOT's and SIGEMT's were good for? IIRC, an EMT [emulator trap] has been used to extend the instruction set of the CPU in software, e.g. like an FPU emulator, something that's been invented back in the early days of the PDP-11, too. IOT was the IO trap, i think external devices could hardware-trigger this one when they required attention. There's more PDP-11 inheritage, see spl(9) for another example. In particular, the historic (no longer in BSD) numerical values spl0() through spl7() mapped directly to PDP-11 instructions. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 19:03:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA06217 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06206 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03083; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:02:30 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19970211140229.63248@usn.blaze.net.au> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:02:29 +1100 From: David Nugent To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: David Nugent , Peter Mutsaers , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Perl4 (was: tcl 7.6 & tk 4.2) References: <19970211134400.30333@usn.blaze.net.au> <4679.855629158@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61 In-Reply-To: <4679.855629158@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Feb 02, 1997 at 06:45:58PM Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Oh well, since we're discussing it... On Feb 02, 1997 at 06:45:58PM, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Very much like perl4 vs. perl5 then. > > Except that tcl8.0 isn't twice as large as tcl7.5, something which > should make folks significantly less reticent about taking the > plunge. :-) The space issue is pretty much bogus, imho, even if I do sympathise with it (although not much - as time goes by and I see multi-megabyte commits to the repository occur more and more frequently). As we discussed previously, what is needed is a more compartmented build/install system. It seemed to me at least that there was a general agreement to that and it seems to be a good compromise solution. But it appears that isn't going to happen in the near future. So we should 'bite the bullet' and as they say in the Nike ads, "just do it". If a better scheme is invented later, then we take that issue up then since more than Perl is affected. Regards, David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 21:12:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA13039 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA13034 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA05332; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:11:55 -0800 (PST) To: David Nugent cc: Peter Mutsaers , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Perl4 (was: tcl 7.6 & tk 4.2) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:02:29 +1100." <19970211140229.63248@usn.blaze.net.au> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 21:11:55 -0800 Message-ID: <5329.855637915@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But it appears that isn't going to happen in the near future. Well, it's happening, just slowly and as people find the energy to really dive in and "contrib" something. That would be a good project for Perl5, but everyone runs when that one's brought up! :-) > So we should 'bite the bullet' and as they say in the Nike > ads, "just do it". If a better scheme is invented later, then > we take that issue up then since more than Perl is affected. Well, as Sean Connery's character said in "The Untouchables", "Just what are you prepared to do?" :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 10 23:47:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06095 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06089 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA04165 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:47:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702110747.XAA04165@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: UMAX scanner support? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:47:52 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, I bought a UMAX scanner and was wondering if there is any support for it ... Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 00:08:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA06984 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA06975 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:08:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.176.130.88] (serialB17.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.88]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA27724; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:08:43 GMT X-Sender: robmel@mailhost.innotts.co.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199702100848.JAA22878@truk.brandinnovators.com>; from Hans Zuidam on Feb 10, 1997 09:48:15 +0100 <199702100848.JAA22878@truk.brandinnovators.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 08:08:17 +0000 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), hans@brandinnovators.com (Hans Zuidam) From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: Bus Errors Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, cmott@srv.net Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 1:29 am +0100 11/2/97, J Wunsch wrote: >No. Unix hasn't been developed on the m68k. :-) It's been developed >on the PDP-11. how I miss that multi-coloured rainbow of bit keys we used to boot the PDP11... That's what a real computer shd. look like, not these grey bricks we get these days... Wistfully Robin. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 00:21:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA07494 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:21:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA07483 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 00:21:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA04939; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:20:49 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19970211192048.29933@usn.blaze.net.au> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:20:48 +1100 From: David Nugent To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Perl4 (was: tcl 7.6 & tk 4.2) References: <19970211140229.63248@usn.blaze.net.au> <5329.855637915@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61 In-Reply-To: <5329.855637915@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Feb 02, 1997 at 09:11:55PM Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Feb 02, 1997 at 09:11:55PM, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > But it appears that isn't going to happen in the near future. > > Well, it's happening, just slowly and as people find the energy > to really dive in and "contrib" something. That's good. My impression of it "not going to happen" was due to lack of seeing any discussion on it for some weeks. To be fair, the impending 2.2 release and the recent all-hands-on-deck security scramble should take the front seat in any case. > That would be a good project for Perl5, but everyone runs when > that one's brought up! :-) Or perhaps don't have the time, due to the reasons given above. :) > Well, as Sean Connery's character said in "The Untouchables", > "Just what are you prepared to do?" As always, whatever it takes with the time I have available. I'm all for the idea of restructuring to make this easier, but of course before we do that, we need a clear idea of what we're actually trying to achieve. Perhaps this discussion is more pertinent in freebsd-config? Or is that only for kernel config related discussion? Regards, David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 01:22:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA10402 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 01:22:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgate.flevel.co.uk (root@fgate.flevel.co.uk [194.6.101.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA10396 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 01:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from netacc@localhost) by fgate.flevel.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.9) id JAA14534; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:22:16 GMT Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.0 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:20:53 -0000 (GMT) Organization: Fourth Level Developments LTD From: Net Access Manager To: (Joerg Wunsch) Subject: Re: Unix Shell Accounts Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, (J Wunsch) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 11-Feb-97 J Wunsch wrote: >As Net Access Manager wrote: > >> If anyone is interested in a commerical supported unix shell account >> (Running on FreeBSD V3.0) then please contact us for more information. > >Uh, apart from the spam to our mailing lists, you must have been >travelling in time, right? There's no such thing like a FreeBSD 3.0 >here in our universe... Erm, well if you try compling FreeBSD current you will find that it says version 3.0 on the boot up message. Regards, Trefor S. -------------------------------------------------------------------- | Fourth Level Developments | Net Access Manager | | | Unix Accounts for People | | email: netaccess@flevel.co.uk | with Netaccess | | tel: 0117 985 4455 | Mail, WWW Pages, Compiling | | fax: 0117 955 9157 | Talkers, MUDs, FTP Sites | | | Mail Servers .... | -------------------------------------------------------------------| From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 03:06:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA14959 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from csd.cs.technion.ac.il (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA14954 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (nadav@localhost) by csd.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA17001; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:03:04 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: csd.cs.technion.ac.il: nadav owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:03:03 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Robin Melville cc: Joerg Wunsch , Hans Zuidam , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, cmott@srv.net Subject: Re: Bus Errors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Feb 1997, Robin Melville wrote: > At 1:29 am +0100 11/2/97, J Wunsch wrote: > > >No. Unix hasn't been developed on the m68k. :-) It's been developed > >on the PDP-11. > > how I miss that multi-coloured rainbow of bit keys we used to boot > the PDP11... That's what a real computer shd. look like, not these grey > bricks we get these days... I just ran across a nice article about the preservation of computer history in the DTJ (DEC Technical Journal). I don't have the URL handy but you should be able to find it in DEC's site (somewhere under http://www.digital.com/info/DTJ). It's about their Australian subsidary preserving ancient PDPs in working condition, including not just the PDP-11, but also the PDP-8 and weirdoes such as the PDP-10 and PDP-15. > > Wistfully > > Robin. > Nadav From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 09:42:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06821 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:42:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06815 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14855; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:42:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:42:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199702111742.KAA14855@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: UMAX scanner support? In-Reply-To: <199702110747.XAA04165@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199702110747.XAA04165@rah.star-gate.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I bought a UMAX scanner and was wondering if there is any support for > it ... Nope. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 10:35:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA09593 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:35:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from main.gbdata.com (tel_ppp0017.livingston.net [207.22.211.26]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09585 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 10:35:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gclarkii@localhost) by main.gbdata.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id MAA12238; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 12:26:47 -0600 (CST) From: Gary Clark II Message-Id: <199702111826.MAA12238@main.gbdata.com> Subject: Re: Perl4 (was: tcl 7.6 & tk 4.2) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 12:26:47 -0600 (CST) Cc: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, plm@xs4all.nl, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <5329.855637915@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Feb 10, 97 09:11:55 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > But it appears that isn't going to happen in the near future. > > Well, it's happening, just slowly and as people find the energy > to really dive in and "contrib" something. That would be a good > project for Perl5, but everyone runs when that one's brought > up! :-) I'm willing to do it. Can someone point me towards "THE" paper on how to do contrib if there is such an animal? Is there a good keyword set for the archives I could use? > > So we should 'bite the bullet' and as they say in the Nike > > ads, "just do it". If a better scheme is invented later, then > > we take that issue up then since more than Perl is affected. > > Well, as Sean Connery's character said in "The Untouchables", > "Just what are you prepared to do?" > > :-) > > Jordan > Gary P.S. contributions of "dark" beer for afterwards is requested...:) -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | I speak only for myself and "maybe" my company gclarkii@GBData.COM | Member of the FreeBSD Doc Team Providing Internet and ISP startups mail info@GBData.COM for information FreeBSD FAQ at ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs/freebsd-faq.ascii From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 11 13:21:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA19396 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:21:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19390 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA20512; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:21:23 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id WAA25687; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:09:49 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:09:49 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: netacc@fgate.flevel.co.uk (Net Access Manager) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix Shell Accounts References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Net Access Manager on Feb 11, 1997 09:20:53 -0000 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Net Access Manager wrote: > Erm, well if you try compling FreeBSD current you will find that it > says version 3.0 on the boot up message. Sure, but that doesn't mean it's released yet. j@uriah 370% uname -sr FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ^^^^^^^ Also, i for sure wouldn't put up a -current machine for public access... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 00:50:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA16563 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 00:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgate.flevel.co.uk (root@fgate.flevel.co.uk [194.6.101.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16554 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 00:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (netacc@localhost) by fgate.flevel.co.uk (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA12606; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:50:30 GMT Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 08:50:29 +0000 (GMT) From: Net Access Manager To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unix Shell Accounts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Net Access Manager wrote: > > > Erm, well if you try compling FreeBSD current you will find that it > > says version 3.0 on the boot up message. > > Sure, but that doesn't mean it's released yet. > > j@uriah 370% uname -sr > FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT > ^^^^^^^ > > Also, i for sure wouldn't put up a -current machine for public > access... Well, actually we use a snap of -current for all our unix boxes as it is more stable than V2.4 release and supports nis better -- we have uptimes of over 2 weeks. Regards, Trefor S. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 09:41:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13433 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from cedar.netten.net (root@cedar.netten.net [205.244.191.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13427 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from default (wok1-05.memphis.edu [141.225.224.25]) by cedar.netten.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA24092 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:42:39 -0600 Message-ID: <330201A7.49B7@cedar.netten.net> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:45:12 -0600 From: "Tracy E. Phillips" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Does anyone use Qmail? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hi, Just wanting to get your opinion about using Qmail with FreeBSD. Thanks, Tracy From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 12 17:55:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10636 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (qmailr@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu [129.101.191.123]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA10617 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19618 invoked by uid 1003); 13 Feb 1997 01:54:34 -0000 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:54:33 -0800 (PST) From: faried nawaz To: tphilips@cedar.netten.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Does anyone use Qmail? In-Reply-To: <330201A7.49B7@cedar.netten.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Tracy E. Phillips wrote: > Just wanting to get your opinion about using Qmail with FreeBSD. i'm running it on a 2.1.5 machine right now, with about 50 users who use pop3, imap, pine, or Mail. it works great. faried. -- faried nawaz WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY BACKSPACE IS DELETE box 3582, moscow, id 83843-1914, usa linux, the ms-dos of the nineties PIGLET loves you if at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you not a system janitor. People's Front Against WWW From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 00:19:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA25926 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.MCESTATE.COM (vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM [206.171.98.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA25919 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by mail.MCESTATE.COM (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id AAA24609 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:18:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:18:25 -0800 (PST) From: Vincent Poy To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Hard Disk Repair Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi guys, Does anyone know where I can get a OEM Seagate ST410800W 9 GIG Fast Wide SCSI Drive Repaired from a Headcrash? Thanks. Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 00:54:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA27823 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:54:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (iv4W/xoovJeS8CK6wJB+NaewRs+jftoI@grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA27818 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (37rqlEn+bzsAYapbB4Zq2PQ/0uongWLP@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA05309; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:54:33 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199702130854.KAA05309@grackle.grondar.za> To: Vincent Poy cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hard Disk Repair Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:54:25 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Vincent Poy wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get a OEM Seagate ST410800W 9 GIG > Fast Wide SCSI Drive Repaired from a Headcrash? Thanks. When I was in the navy, we used to float test(*) this sort of damage. (*) Float test - advanced diagnotic method. Throw the equipment over the side. If it floats, it's useful. This saved us enormous amounts of wasted time trying to recover stuff that was BER(+). (+) Beyond economic Repair. In short - head crashed disks are useful only as bricks or boat anchors. M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 01:15:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA29116 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.MCESTATE.COM (vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM [206.171.98.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA29103 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by mail.MCESTATE.COM (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id BAA24786; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:14:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:14:46 -0800 (PST) From: Vincent Poy To: Mark Murray cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hard Disk Repair In-Reply-To: <199702130854.KAA05309@grackle.grondar.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Mark Murray wrote: > Vincent Poy wrote: > > Does anyone know where I can get a OEM Seagate ST410800W 9 GIG > > Fast Wide SCSI Drive Repaired from a Headcrash? Thanks. > > When I was in the navy, we used to float test(*) this sort of damage. > > (*) Float test - advanced diagnotic method. Throw the equipment over > the side. If it floats, it's useful. This saved us enormous amounts > of wasted time trying to recover stuff that was BER(+). > > (+) Beyond economic Repair. > > In short - head crashed disks are useful only as bricks or boat > anchors. Really? You mean for a $2200 HD, it can't even be repaired? Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 01:50:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01074 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (poUPa+3cBYToKCl43t77hGfYFnYyay3j@grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA01069 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (JZ0jA0unjGzaW54WLPIje0s1OLdpRndg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA05518; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:48:14 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199702130948.LAA05518@grackle.grondar.za> To: Vincent Poy cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hard Disk Repair Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:46:56 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Vincent Poy wrote: > > In short - head crashed disks are useful only as bricks or boat > > anchors. > > Really? You mean for a $2200 HD, it can't even be repaired? The secret is the middle word: Beyond ECONOMIC Repair. Some can be, some can't. Mostly it's too fscking expensive. M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 08:12:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20583 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:12:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from cedar.netten.net (root@cedar.netten.net [205.244.191.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA20573 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from default (wil-47.netten.net [205.244.191.47]) by cedar.netten.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA21678 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:13:54 -0600 Message-ID: <33033E47.618B@cedar.netten.net> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:16:07 -0600 From: "Tracy E. Phillips" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hi, is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? if so, where might i find it? i have messed around with the linux vh-man2html and cannot get it to compile (but then again i don't know what i am doing). Tracy From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 08:58:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA23258 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:58:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23250 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA10407; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:58:48 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: "Tracy E. Phillips" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? In-Reply-To: <33033E47.618B@cedar.netten.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Tracy E. Phillips wrote: > is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? if so, where might i > find it? Rman (in the ports collection) does a pretty respectable job. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 09:02:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23463 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [204.178.32.161]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23457 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (spork@localhost) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA02091; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:08:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:08:07 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Mark Murray cc: Vincent Poy , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hard Disk Repair In-Reply-To: <199702130948.LAA05518@grackle.grondar.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We sent in a disk that had less severe damage than that to a firm called "DriveSavers". The problem with ours was a partially hosed board that in turn fried the spindle motor. There was no physical damage to the platters, all they did was take the guts and swap them into a new housing. This cost about $3500. A head crash is more severe. We now have a thorough backup routine... Charles On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Mark Murray wrote: > Vincent Poy wrote: > > > In short - head crashed disks are useful only as bricks or boat > > > anchors. > > > > Really? You mean for a $2200 HD, it can't even be repaired? > > The secret is the middle word: Beyond ECONOMIC Repair. Some can be, > some can't. Mostly it's too fscking expensive. > > M > -- > Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 > This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 11:51:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03903 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03898 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA06716; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:50:50 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id UAA04796; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:36:36 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:36:36 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: phk@critter.dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Cc: peter@spinner.dialix.com (Peter Wemm), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.port.mk References: <199702121742.BAA27736@spinner.DIALix.COM> <3031.855769985@critter.dk.tfs.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3031.855769985@critter.dk.tfs.com>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Feb 12, 1997 18:53:05 +0100 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >The good news is that the horror house move was finished a few hours ago... > > I don't belive you, have you unpacked all boxes ? > > All ? Hah, you probably know best that there are always boxes that never got unpacked at all. You'll notice them at your next move only. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 11:55:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04145 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:55:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from bofh.cybercity.dk (relay.cybercity.dk [195.8.128.254]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04140 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:55:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (phk.cybercity.dk [195.8.133.247]) by bofh.cybercity.dk (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA00162; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:57:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA06437; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:57:23 +0100 (MET) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: peter@spinner.dialix.com (Peter Wemm), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.port.mk In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:36:36 +0100." Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:57:22 +0100 Message-ID: <6435.855863842@critter.dk.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , J Wunsch writes: >As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> >The good news is that the horror house move was finished a few hours ago... >> >> I don't belive you, have you unpacked all boxes ? >> >> All ? > >Hah, you probably know best that there are always boxes that never got >unpacked at all. You'll notice them at your next move only. :-) > Next time we move I'm going to call a cab, put the entire family in it and put a match to the house and everything in it. I'm not even going to look back :-) My dad used to utter the wisdom that "You should move every four years, that way you can keep the mess under control.". He's right I'm sure. My parents have lived in their house for 38 years now and have started to talk about moving and needing help for same... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 13:08:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08442 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:08:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.MCESTATE.COM (vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM [206.171.98.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08433 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:08:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by mail.MCESTATE.COM (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id NAA25819; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:07:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:07:02 -0800 (PST) From: Vincent Poy To: spork cc: Mark Murray , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hard Disk Repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, spork wrote: > We sent in a disk that had less severe damage than that to a firm called > "DriveSavers". The problem with ours was a partially hosed board that in > turn fried the spindle motor. There was no physical damage to the > platters, all they did was take the guts and swap them into a new housing. > This cost about $3500. A head crash is more severe. > > We now have a thorough backup routine... How big is the drive that you had repaired? I was offering to provide a Disk Drive repair place a second identical drive for parts and they told me that they couldn't fix it either. Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 13:26:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA09910 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:26:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar (ras620.srv.net [205.180.127.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA09891 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmott@localhost) by darkstar (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA06313; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:26:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:26:40 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Trying to understand stack overflow Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The traffic on -hackers suggests that there is a *major* concern about stack overflow. I asked around about this and was told that this was the method of exploitation used by the famous internet Worm eight or nine years ago. I stopped by the bookstore to see if I could get a reference on 386 assembly language so I could understand this business of stack pointers and frames a little better, but couldn't find one. There were books about the Alpha and PowerPC, but not on 386, 486 or Pentium machine language. Are there any decent on-line references that I can look at? I was not aware of this method of security attack. At least as far as the setlocale() vulnerability in 2.1.6 and earlier, the attacker has to be logged into your system. Are there any means of attack which can bust directly into your system from the internet without first logging in with a password? I am told the the Worm exploited finger and possibly sendmail to bust in. When I saw one person posting that he was having trouble sleeping at night because of this problem, I began to be curious. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 13:34:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA10385 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar (ras620.srv.net [205.180.127.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA10378 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmott@localhost) by darkstar (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA06324; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:34:35 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:34:35 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Security Monitoring Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are there any programs that use the bpf device to log addresses and make a summary? I guess that I would be interested in two levels of summary: (1) all tcp/udp connections, which would be very long, and (2) summary of outside addresses for incoming and outgoing connections on a given day. Summary (2) is useful to someone like myself who frequents a small area of the internet and can quickly spot unusual addresses. I feel sure that summary (1) exists in some form (maybe even as an appropriate option to tcpdump). However I don't know if there is a convenient summary utility which goes through the long listing, does the name lookups, and summarizes activity for each address. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 14:21:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13306 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13301 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA10703; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:20:47 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id XAA05908; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:02:19 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:02:19 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: cmott@srv.net (Charles Mott) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Mott on Feb 13, 1997 14:26:40 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Charles Mott wrote: > I was not aware of this method of security attack. At least as far as the > setlocale() vulnerability in 2.1.6 and earlier, the attacker has to be > logged into your system. Are there any means of attack which can bust > directly into your system from the internet without first logging in > with a password? sendmail proudly presented the umpteenth remote root security hole very recently. Basically, the stack overflow attack allows for remote exploitation if it's possible to send the eploiting data across the net. For the setlocale() attack, the exploiting data were required to be in a local file already, so it required at least another security hole in advance (or something like an anon ftp upload area). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 14:21:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13376 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13355 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA10715; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:21:15 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id XAA05930; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:08:55 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:08:55 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: cmott@srv.net (Charles Mott) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Security Monitoring References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Mott on Feb 13, 1997 14:34:35 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Charles Mott wrote: > Are there any programs that use the bpf device to log addresses and make > a summary? I guess that I would be interested in two levels of summary: > (1) all tcp/udp connections, which would be very long, and (2) summary of > outside addresses for incoming and outgoing connections on a given day. Not that i know of. However, i'm using tcpdump successfully for such purposes myself. I usually run a Perl script over it nightly, this gives me something like a ``live firewalling'' that proved to be very useful in the past. (It often detects even slight anomalities.) I also archive the logs for later perusal for quite some time, so i can review them if the summary script yielded some sign of weirdness. Btw., the `gateway' keyword comes useful for it. It allows restricting the monitored traffic to gatewayed traffic (IP traffic that goes to/from an particular ethernet address but is not destined for the associated IP address). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 15:03:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16608 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar (ras611.srv.net [205.180.127.111]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA16600 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmott@localhost) by darkstar (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA06416; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:03:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:03:24 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar To: J Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, J Wunsch wrote: [snip] > Basically, the stack overflow attack allows for remote exploitation if > it's possible to send the eploiting data across the net. For the > setlocale() attack, the exploiting data were required to be in a local > file already, so it required at least another security hole in advance > (or something like an anon ftp upload area). Does the location on the stack of the automatic string variable have to be known precisely for exploitation? If it does, then it would be interesting to have a version of gcc which adds some "noise" as to where exactly in the stack an automatic variable is located. Variables could be re-ordered or dead space could added here and there in the stack. Users wanting extra security would do a make world with stack randomization. Would it also be possible to have separate data and control flow stacks? If the 386 instruction code allows this to be done in an efficient manner, then we could consider a compiler modification. (I'm always looking for a non-standard type of project). My instinct is to go after this problem at a more fundamental level than doing giant code audits. Obviously I don't know too much about all this, so this message is in freebsd-chat. Charles Mott P.S. One can imagine Siberian camps where prisoners audit code at night after cutting down trees or working in the mines during the day. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 15:48:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19041 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA19033 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA25331 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:47:17 -0800 Received: from [194.176.130.90] (serialB19.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.90]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA23387; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:45:03 GMT X-Sender: robmel@mailhost.innotts.co.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:45:07 +0000 To: Charles Mott From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id PAA19035 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 4:03 pm -0700 13/2/97, Charles Mott wrote: >On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, J Wunsch wrote: >[snip] >If it does, then it would be interesting to have a version of gcc which >adds some "noise" as to where exactly in the stack an automatic variable >is located. Yes, I wondered about this too. I don't believe the actual location of an auto makes any difference, because the desired effect is to overwrite the return address. Thinking aloud, a random padding of the stack frame would make this less feasible. This would, however, add significantly to the size of executables, and would be easily get-aroundable where precompiled libraries and executables were used (eg FreeBSD distributions & packages). It would require everybody to make world before they could use the system. >Would it also be possible to have separate data and control flow stacks? >... Yes that would also make more sense. >My instinct is to go after this problem at a more fundamental level than >doing giant code audits. Me too. However, the stack overrun exploits are by no means the only ones in use. Also, a major audit might well find loads of hidden bugs and possible allow streamlining of late-night code ;) >Obviously I don't know too much about all this, >so this message is in freebsd-chat. Yes, I guess it's not unlikely that we're making the Gurus wince with our carnival of ignorance... :) Regards Rob. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 16:09:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20537 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar (ras519.srv.net [205.180.127.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20510 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:08:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmott@localhost) by darkstar (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA06491; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:07:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:07:25 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar To: Robin Melville cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >If it does, then it would be interesting to have a version of gcc which > >adds some "noise" as to where exactly in the stack an automatic variable > >is located. > > Yes, I wondered about this too. I don't believe the actual location of > an auto makes any difference, because the desired effect is to overwrite > the return address. How does control flow fall through to the overflow part of the stack? If an absolute return address is given, I don't see how this can be done. There is something about the stack mechanism I need to understand. > >Would it also be possible to have separate data and control flow > >stacks? > > Yes that would also make more sense. Any advice here on how to do this would be appreciated. If there is a conceptual reason it won't work -- no spare registers, or possibly interference with custom assembler code -- I would appreciate knowing. I just need to find a lousy x386 reference (either online or printed). Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 16:50:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23388 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23331 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id LAA22131; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:18:56 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702140048.LAA22131@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Hard Disk Repair In-Reply-To: from Vincent Poy at "Feb 13, 97 01:07:02 pm" To: vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM (Vincent Poy) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:18:55 +1030 (CST) Cc: spork@super-g.com, mark@grondar.za, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Vincent Poy stands accused of saying: > > How big is the drive that you had repaired? I was offering to > provide a Disk Drive repair place a second identical drive for parts and > they told me that they couldn't fix it either. Depending on what actually happened to the unit, it may be completely unrepairable. Seriously, Vince; you should dump the disk and restore from your backups. I don't know where to start in enumerating the things that could make a 'headcrashed' disk BER; you could have lost all or part of the servo surface, you could have pocked the disk surface (so that when you start the reassembled disk, it will rip the head off the first time it goes past), you could have lost the sector forwarding map or the on-disk configuration information (so that the controller will error out on intialisation)... the list just goes on and on... > Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 17:03:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24128 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24121 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA05433; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:02:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:02:50 -0800 (PST) From: Snob Art Genre To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Joerg Wunsch , Peter Wemm , FreeBSD chat list Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.port.mk In-Reply-To: <6435.855863842@critter.dk.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , J Wunsch writes: > >As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > >> >The good news is that the horror house move was finished a few hours ago... > >> > >> I don't belive you, have you unpacked all boxes ? > >> > >> All ? > > > >Hah, you probably know best that there are always boxes that never got > >unpacked at all. You'll notice them at your next move only. :-) > > > > Next time we move I'm going to call a cab, put the entire family in it > and put a match to the house and everything in it. I'm not even going > to look back :-) > > My dad used to utter the wisdom that "You should move every four years, > that way you can keep the mess under control.". I'm moving out of this dorm room after a semester, and already I'm more than a little concerned about getting all the kipple from here to the new room. > He's right I'm sure. > > My parents have lived in their house for 38 years now and have started > to talk about moving and needing help for same... > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. > Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 17:10:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24556 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:10:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24547 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:10:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA05433; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:02:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:02:50 -0800 (PST) From: Snob Art Genre To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: Joerg Wunsch , Peter Wemm , FreeBSD chat list Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.port.mk In-Reply-To: <6435.855863842@critter.dk.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 13 Feb 1997, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , J Wunsch writes: > >As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > >> >The good news is that the horror house move was finished a few hours ago... > >> > >> I don't belive you, have you unpacked all boxes ? > >> > >> All ? > > > >Hah, you probably know best that there are always boxes that never got > >unpacked at all. You'll notice them at your next move only. :-) > > > > Next time we move I'm going to call a cab, put the entire family in it > and put a match to the house and everything in it. I'm not even going > to look back :-) > > My dad used to utter the wisdom that "You should move every four years, > that way you can keep the mess under control.". I'm moving out of this dorm room after a semester, and already I'm more than a little concerned about getting all the kipple from here to the new room. > He's right I'm sure. > > My parents have lived in their house for 38 years now and have started > to talk about moving and needing help for same... > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. > Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 17:33:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25869 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25864 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.2/8.7.3) id MAA22582 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:03:42 +1030 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199702140133.MAA22582@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.port.mk In-Reply-To: from Snob Art Genre at "Feb 13, 97 05:02:50 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:03:42 +1030 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Snob Art Genre stands accused of saying: > > > > My dad used to utter the wisdom that "You should move every four years, > > that way you can keep the mess under control.". > > I'm moving out of this dorm room after a semester, and already I'm more > than a little concerned about getting all the kipple from here to the new > room. Several moves back I made the mistake of not doing a tip run before I started packing. I overheated the clutch on my old Mazda and melted the seal on the slave cylinder. Leaving me stranded in the middle of a major road with an 8x5 cage trailer full of my junk on the back. So, now rule #2 (behind Rule #1; never pay full price for anything) is "if you haven't used it since you moved in, throw it out". -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 18:59:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00608 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:59:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00603 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA07454; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:58:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 18:58:56 -0800 (PST) From: Snob Art Genre To: wb2oyc@cyberenet.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: misc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've redirected this to -chat, it doesn't belong on -questions. On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 wb2oyc@cyberenet.net wrote: > > On 22:59:27 Snob Art Genre wrote: > >>On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 wb2oyc@cyberenet.net wrote: > > > >Hmm, somehow only flamers seem to have that impression. I have found > >there to be a lot of generosity and cooperation around here. > > > Thats crap! You guys flamed me for telling it like it is! You couldn't > deal with the facts. All I did was lay it out there. It was you guys that > came back with the nonsensical comments making fools of yourselves. It was your attitude and tone that people (including me) reacted to, not your facts. Everyone's aware of FreeBSD's ATAPI CD-ROM problems, and nobody gets flamed for recognizing that. What does provoke people is messages that read "you suck because [linux | win95 | winnt] can [recognize my cd-rom | score well on whankstone | execute an infinite loop in 10 seconds] and FreeBSD can't!" Do you seriously think that anyone would bother to flame you for pointing out what they already know? Do you seriously think that anyone has a better knowledge of FreeBSD's limitations than the core team? > >> they all work and FreeBSD doesn't, whose wrong here dude? You > > >No Microsoft OS works by any definition of "work" that I use. Linux > >works, FreeBSD works. > > > You've got your head in the sand if you really believe that! I hate uSlop If I really believe what? That Linux and FreeBSD work? You're not going to convince me otherwise. That M$'s OSs don't work? I believe what I see, and that's what I see. > too, and the only reason I do have it here at all is because I need it to > support those at work! Thats why I prefer Linux or FreeBSD, and use > both far more than the other crap. But you guys really do have a holier > than thou attitude sometimes. I've been on this list for about a year by > the way, so I'm not some transient flamer............ So what are you? An angel of truth, sent to tell the -questions-reading community that FreeBSD doesn't always detect ATAPI CD-ROMs correctly? Some kind of martyr? Save yourself the effort, no one else is interested in playing any of those games. > Paul Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 20:17:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04419 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:17:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04412 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA12036; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:15:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:15:26 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber Reply-To: John Fieber To: Jake Hamby cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MIME applications for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199702130450.UAA01601@lightside.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to chat] On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Jake Hamby wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > > > As to what binary data is permitted to be encoded: > > > > 1) Any binary data the sender and the recipient can agree upon > > > > > > Though I'd be perfectly happy to see this limited to binary data for > > which public source reference implementations exist (ie: no more Word > > documents unless Microsoft publically documents Word file format, no > > PDF documents unless Adobe documents their "encryption" preventing > > the use of non-Adobe readers, but not preventing any Adobe reader from > > decoding the document, etc., etc.). > > Absolutely! Although figuring out the lowest common denomintor for, e.g. > rich text, often leads to all sorts of oddities. Ah, yes. What us poor users who just want to get some work done need is to raise the common denominator via DATA standards. Vendors, of course have a vested interest in focusing standardization at the APPLICATION. People's investment in their data typically far exceeds their investment in hardware or software. Unfortunately, with standardization focused at the application level, (MS|Corel|Lotus)Office, the fine print on the investment contract says "If the customer should wish to change applications, all data investments are null and void." Actually, it isn't completely null and void, but you do take a substantial loss. The pickings for universally grokable application and vendor independent data formats are pretty thin. 7 bit US-ASCII won't cause very many people very much trouble but it does cramp many people's style. As soon as you add that 8th bit, things degenerate into a code set quagmire with the only light on the horizon being unicode/ISO 10646, but with its implementation and political difficulties, it may be quite a while before it is widespread. Higher level encoding boils down to markup. SGML is a good start. Essentially any markup construct found in proprietary word processor formats can be expressed using SGML. Unfortunately, SGML is widely misunderstood and has been plagued by lack of tools useful to ordinary mortals. The recent XML initiative may help out on both fronts. XML is a proper subset of SGML. Many of the more esoteric and confusing SGML features of dubious utility have been cut, which makes XML much easier to understand (humans) and parse (tools). XML embraces unicode right from the start as well. Of course, vendors can still create hideously obtuse markup languages using SGML, but they would be orders of magnitude easier to reverse engineer than the bag of encrypted bits they currently use. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 20:31:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04891 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04886 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 20:31:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA12059; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:31:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:31:46 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Moving (was cvs commit: src/share/mk bsd.port.mk) In-Reply-To: <199702140133.MAA22582@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > cylinder. Leaving me stranded in the middle of a major road with an > 8x5 cage trailer full of my junk on the back. ^^^ !!! My last move was an incredible squeeze in a 15x8x7 foot rental truck. The place I'm in now has about 8 times the closet space of the last place, so you can imagine what is happening. I'll be very lucky if I can get out of here with an 18 foot truck. My wife has visions of getting rid of lots of stuff, but I have my doubts. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 21:02:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06210 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06182 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:02:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27063; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:59:00 +1000 Received: by ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.7.5/DEVETIR-E0.3a) id OAA27909; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:48:06 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:48:06 +1000 (EST) From: Stephen McKay Message-Id: <199702140448.OAA27909@ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au> To: Charles Mott cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Mott wrote: >> >If it does, then it would be interesting to have a version of gcc which >> >adds some "noise" as to where exactly in the stack an automatic variable >> >is located. >> >> Yes, I wondered about this too. I don't believe the actual location of >> an auto makes any difference, because the desired effect is to overwrite >> the return address. > >How does control flow fall through to the overflow part of the stack? If >an absolute return address is given, I don't see how this can be done. >There is something about the stack mechanism I need to understand. Stack grows downward on the 386 architecture. You get something like this for a frame: | ... | High addresses +----------------+ | fn argument 2 | +----------------+ | fn argument 1 | +----------------+ | return address | +----------------+ | previous frame | <- %ebp = frame pointer +----------------+ | local | | variables | +----------------+ <- %esp = stack pointer | ... | Low addresses The function arguments are pushed onto the stack in reverse order, then the actual call instruction pushes the return address. The function preamble pushes the frame pointer and decrements the stack pointer to make enough space for local variables. The first fn argument is at 8(%ebp), the second at 12(%ebp) and the first local is at -4(%ebp), assuming they are integers. Ignore register variables for the moment; the 386 has so few anyway. Now, if one of those local variables is an array that you can overflow, the stuff that will get overwritten includes all the local variables with higher addresses plus the saved frame pointer plus the return address. If you carefully manipulate the return address you can run code from the same array you overflowed. Generally you would spawn /bin/sh reading from stdin, and then pump arbitrary shell commands at it. >> >Would it also be possible to have separate data and control flow >> >stacks? >> >> Yes that would also make more sense. > >Any advice here on how to do this would be appreciated. If there is a >conceptual reason it won't work -- no spare registers, or possibly >interference with custom assembler code -- I would appreciate knowing. I >just need to find a lousy x386 reference (either online or printed). The real problem here is lack of bounds checking on memory objects. I remember Dennis Ritchie (hmm, or was it Ken T?) claim that he had modified his system C compiler so that every C pointer implied length as well as starting location. Thus, every pointer and array access could be checked for illegitimate accesses. The penalty is doubling the size of every pointer plus a run time checking cost. Given the dramas people are having with security nowadays, and the plummeting cost of RAM and CPU power, I think such an option should be added to GCC with all speed. It can be done, if you think about it a bit. If I could read GNU Standard C, I might even do it myself. :-) [GNU indenting advocates may throw tomatoes now]. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 21:26:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA07485 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar (ras523.srv.net [205.180.127.23]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA07479 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 21:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmott@localhost) by darkstar (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA07200; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:25:31 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:25:29 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar To: Stephen McKay cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow In-Reply-To: <199702140448.OAA27909@ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Now, if one of those local variables is an array that you can overflow, > the stuff that will get overwritten includes all the local variables with > higher addresses plus the saved frame pointer plus the return address. > If you carefully manipulate the return address you can run code from the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is the part that puzzles me. It seems that the stack data can have an address which is not predictable beforehand (or is it?). If the addresses within a process space are predictable, then possibly there might be something that could be done (either in linking or compiling) to make them a little less predictable from build to build (or even run to run). Users could do a "make world STACK_RANDOMIZE=yes". It seems the easiest way to do this to make the base address of the stack memory segment unpredictable and somehow not alter the actual compiler too much. With this scheme, every build (or possible every executable instance) would require different hack to get at it. Users logged into the system might be able to infer the correct address offset, but external attacks would require quite a bit of trial and error. If there is some basic concept that I am still missing, please let me know. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 23:12:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13687 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA13678 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from thomas@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA16802; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:12:10 +0100 From: Thomas Gellekum Message-Id: <199702140712.IAA16802@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: Is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? To: tphilips@cedar.netten.net (Tracy E. Phillips) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:12:09 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <33033E47.618B@cedar.netten.net> from "Tracy E. Phillips" at "Feb 13, 97 10:16:07 am" Organization: Institut f. Hochfrequenztechnik, RWTH Aachen X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tracy E. Phillips wrote: > hi, > > is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? if so, where might i > find it? > > i have messed around with the linux vh-man2html and cannot get it to > compile (but then again i don't know what i am doing). Try unroff from ports/print. It's not limited to converting manpages, look at http://www.de.freebsd.org/~wosch/doc/ for other examples. tg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 13 23:32:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA14626 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA14616 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:32:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.176.130.58] (serialA39.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.58]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA03776; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:32:29 GMT X-Sender: robmel@mailhost.innotts.co.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199702140448.OAA27909@ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 07:32:14 +0000 To: Stephen McKay , Charles Mott From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 2:48 pm +1000 14/2/97, Stephen McKay wrote: > [lots of useful background snipped...] >If you carefully manipulate the return address you can run code from the >same array you overflowed. In other words executing code within the stack frame. Can't the 386 MMU restrict execution to the Text page? That would solve the whole thing. >The real problem here is lack of bounds checking on memory objects. I >remember Dennis Ritchie (hmm, or was it Ken T?) claim that he had modified >his system C compiler so that every C pointer implied length as well as >starting location. Thus, every pointer and array access could be checked >for illegitimate accesses. The penalty is doubling the size of every pointer >plus a run time checking cost. Given the dramas people are having with >security nowadays, and the plummeting cost of RAM and CPU power, I think >such an option should be added to GCC with all speed. This would also add enormously to the stability of C applications. Memory leakage is the bugbear of everything written in C. I second the proposition wholeheartedly! Rob. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 00:12:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA17062 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA17047 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.176.130.24] (serialA17.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.24]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA05253; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:56 GMT X-Sender: robmel@mailhost.innotts.co.uk Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:11:08 +0000 To: Stephen McKay , Charles Mott , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Robin Melville Subject: Public Relations Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Why don't we follow MSoft's lead of putting music videos on the Win95 distribution CD? I propose an MPEG of Jordan singing "My Way" for the 2.2 release :) Rob. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 00:45:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18696 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from oldman.steinkamm.com (arne@OldMan.Steinkamm.COM [194.127.175.225]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA18690 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 00:45:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from arne@localhost) by oldman.steinkamm.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) id JAA12253; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:44:15 +0100 (MET) From: Arne Steinkamm Message-Id: <199702140844.JAA12253@oldman.steinkamm.com> Subject: Re: Is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? To: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (Thomas Gellekum) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:44:14 +0100 (MET) Cc: tphilips@cedar.netten.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199702140712.IAA16802@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> from "Thomas Gellekum" at Feb 14, 97 08:12:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Tracy E. Phillips wrote: > > hi, > > > > is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? if so, where might i > > find it? > > > > i have messed around with the linux vh-man2html and cannot get it to > > compile (but then again i don't know what i am doing). > > Try unroff from ports/print. It's not limited to converting manpages, > look at http://www.de.freebsd.org/~wosch/doc/ for other examples. The default Homepage installed during the installation of a BSD/OS (yes, the commercial one) has such a nice thing. It's a cgi bin written from Sanders and Polk (@bsdi.com). There's no copyright mentioned in the file but i'm not sure about this.. Try it out, i re-installed the demo-page at http://www.steinkamm.com/Arne/BSDI-index.html .//. Arne -- Arne Steinkamm | Mail (MIME): Arne@Steinkamm.COM IRC: Arne Tel.: +49.89.299.756 | URL: http://WWW.Steinkamm.COM/ NIC-Handle: AS306 Robert-Koch-Str. 4 | "There's coffee in that nebula" D-80538 Muenchen | Cptn. Kathryn Janeway, ST:VOY - The Cloud From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 01:39:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21543 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.MCESTATE.COM (vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM [206.171.98.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA21537 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by mail.MCESTATE.COM (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id BAA27065; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:37:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 01:37:15 -0800 (PST) From: Vincent Poy To: Michael Smith cc: spork@super-g.com, mark@grondar.za, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hard Disk Repair In-Reply-To: <199702140048.LAA22131@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > Vincent Poy stands accused of saying: > > > > How big is the drive that you had repaired? I was offering to > > provide a Disk Drive repair place a second identical drive for parts and > > they told me that they couldn't fix it either. > > Depending on what actually happened to the unit, it may be completely > unrepairable. Well, what happened is the FreeBSD partition was sorta corrupted but the drive still worked so it was shipped FedEx to me to restore the Data on the drive but FedEx damaged the Inductor on the circuit board when it arrived here so the circuit board was fixed but the head just won't move. > Seriously, Vince; you should dump the disk and restore from your > backups. I don't know where to start in enumerating the things that > could make a 'headcrashed' disk BER; you could have lost all or part > of the servo surface, you could have pocked the disk surface (so that when > you start the reassembled disk, it will rip the head off the first time it > goes past), you could have lost the sector forwarding map or the on-disk > configuration information (so that the controller will error out on > intialisation)... the list just goes on and on... I know what you mean but couldn't the drive be fixed (this is a 9 gig drive so it isn't cheap), if I provide another identical working drive for parts that Seagate supplied? Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 02:09:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22953 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:09:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (ru1/EbPzyFCXPikqe7AY+XEGpuwrHrFI@grackle.grondar.za [196.7.18.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA22948 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from grackle.grondar.za (8zqSX2AShKhX2Pr4xNUDsDUq5IxqBpiZ@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grackle.grondar.za (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA16494; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:07:25 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199702141007.MAA16494@grackle.grondar.za> To: Vincent Poy cc: Michael Smith , spork@super-g.com, mark@grondar.za, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hard Disk Repair Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:07:22 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Vincent Poy wrote: > I know what you mean but couldn't the drive be fixed (this is a 9 > gig drive so it isn't cheap), if I provide another identical working drive > for parts that Seagate supplied? Instead of asking us - we have already said "forget it" - why do't you ask a company that does it. You have a couple of pointers and a 'net connection. The real answer is the amount of $$$ that a company will charge you. You will find that the cost of the drive is trivial compared with the amount that these companies charge (which is usually a data _RECOVERY_ service anyway.) Please let this thread die, now... M -- Mark Murray PGP key fingerprint = 80 36 6E 40 83 D6 8A 36 This .sig is umop ap!sdn. BC 06 EA 0E 7A F2 CE CE From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 02:15:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA23132 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.MCESTATE.COM (vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM [206.171.98.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23127 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:15:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by mail.MCESTATE.COM (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id CAA27311; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:13:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:13:38 -0800 (PST) From: Vincent Poy To: Mark Murray cc: Michael Smith , spork@super-g.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hard Disk Repair In-Reply-To: <199702141007.MAA16494@grackle.grondar.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Mark Murray wrote: > Vincent Poy wrote: > > I know what you mean but couldn't the drive be fixed (this is a 9 > > gig drive so it isn't cheap), if I provide another identical working drive > > for parts that Seagate supplied? > > Instead of asking us - we have already said "forget it" - why do't you > ask a company that does it. You have a couple of pointers and a 'net > connection. i already tried Drive Service and they still have the drive, they were first saying the circuit board is faulty so I provided them with a new one and they said it was a headcrash. But what I meant is does anyone know of any companies that do Drive repairs since it seems everyone is in the Data Rcovery business these days. > The real answer is the amount of $$$ that a company will charge you. That is a good thing to think about. > You will find that the cost of the drive is trivial compared with the > amount that these companies charge (which is usually a data _RECOVERY_ > service anyway.) > > Please let this thread die, now... Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 02:33:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA23559 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.ucdavis.edu [128.120.37.176]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23554 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:33:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (reqf-098.ucdavis.edu [128.120.253.218]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA23640 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA02690; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:33:55 GMT Message-ID: <19970214023354.GX64728@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:33:54 -0800 From: obrien@NUXI.com (David O'Brien) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow References: <199702140448.OAA27909@ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Disclaimer: Mutt Bites! Organization: The NUXI *BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 In-Reply-To: <199702140448.OAA27909@ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au>; from Stephen McKay on Feb 14, 1997 14:48:06 +1000 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephen McKay writes: > > The function arguments are pushed onto the stack in reverse order, This is by convention only, and is quite implimentation specific. This is not required by the i386 architecture. Microsoft Pascal pushes arguments on the stack in call order. There is a requirement for the C language that variable length parameter lists be dealt with. Pushing things in reverse order is simply one way of dealing with it. Another would be to pass the number of args in a register (the small C compiler did this). With the reverse order method, you know that the first arg is pointed to by BP/EBP + x (where X is size of return address + frame info), and you "walk" the stack for each argument you access. Of course you need to know when to stop. Think about what happens when you have one too many "%s'" in your printf format... :-) -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 04:41:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA02093 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 04:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA02077; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 04:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ole.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@ole.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.22.3]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05575; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:40:46 +0100 (MET) From: Wolfram Schneider Received: (from wosch@localhost) by ole.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08015; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:40:45 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:40:45 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199702141240.NAA08015@ole.cs.tu-berlin.de> To: Arne Steinkamm Cc: thomas@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (Thomas Gellekum), tphilips@cedar.netten.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, doc@FreeBSD.org Reply-to: doc@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? In-Reply-To: <199702140844.JAA12253@oldman.steinkamm.com> References: <199702140712.IAA16802@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> <199702140844.JAA12253@oldman.steinkamm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Arne Steinkamm writes: >> > is there a manpage to html converter for freebsd? if so, where might i >> > find it? >The default Homepage installed during the installation of a BSD/OS >(yes, the commercial one) has such a nice thing. >It's a cgi bin written from Sanders and Polk (@bsdi.com). >There's no copyright mentioned in the file but i'm not sure >about this.. It is copyright by BSDI. A slightly older version is distributed for free with Plexus (see http://www.earth.com/). I modified the free version for FreeBSD. See http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/cgi/man.cgi This cgi script support man pages from FreeBSD (all releases), NetBSD, OpenBSD, 386BSD, Unix Seventh Edition, and XFree86 3.2. Wolfram From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 05:02:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA03740 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 05:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.252.101]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA03733 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 05:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmott@localhost) by darkstar (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA07240; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:05:50 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:05:49 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar To: Stephen McKay cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow In-Reply-To: <199702140448.OAA27909@ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The real problem here is lack of bounds checking on memory objects. I > remember Dennis Ritchie (hmm, or was it Ken T?) claim that he had modified > his system C compiler so that every C pointer implied length as well as > starting location. Thus, every pointer and array access could be checked > for illegitimate accesses. The penalty is doubling the size of every pointer > plus a run time checking cost. Would there be any problems with code that assumes a pointer is the same size as a long int? I know this sounds like a dumb question, but I have seen code that makes this assumption (some Linux drivers -- I can't remember exactly). Ch From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 10:55:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23791 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23785 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) with UUCP id TAA14087; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:53:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from oo7 (oo7.dimaga.com [192.0.0.65]) by dimaga.com (8.7.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA16831; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:39:10 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970214193910.00a034c0@dimaga.com> X-Sender: eivind@dimaga.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:39:11 +0100 To: Robin Melville From: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow Cc: Stephen McKay , Charles Mott , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 07:32 AM 2/14/97 +0000, Robin Melville wrote: >At 2:48 pm +1000 14/2/97, Stephen McKay wrote: > >> [lots of useful background snipped...] > >>If you carefully manipulate the return address you can run code from the ^^^^^^^^^ >>same array you overflowed. Not necessary. You can do it with utter lack of care and just overflow a _LOT_ with NOPs. (You need to get the address correct within a couple of kilobytes, but usually that is no problem.) There was a description of the technique just a couple of days ago either on -security or on BugTraq. >In other words executing code within the stack frame. Can't the 386 MMU restrict execution to the Text page? That would solve the whole thing. Yes. This is not feasible due to GCC using trampolines (code generated on the stack, on the fly) for implementing local functions and exceptions. Also, due to the way memory-executableness is implemented on the x86-series, there is (heresay coming up) a serious slowdown involved. >>The real problem here is lack of bounds checking on memory objects. I >>remember Dennis Ritchie (hmm, or was it Ken T?) claim that he had modified >>his system C compiler so that every C pointer implied length as well as >>starting location. Thus, every pointer and array access could be checked >>for illegitimate accesses. The penalty is doubling the size of every pointer >>plus a run time checking cost. Given the dramas people are having with >>security nowadays, and the plummeting cost of RAM and CPU power, I think >>such an option should be added to GCC with all speed. > >This would also add enormously to the stability of C applications. Memory >leakage is the bugbear of everything written in C. This does not address memory-leakage - it address buffer overruns. For memory leakage I would suggest Boehms garbage collector - it is in the ports collection. >I second the proposition wholeheartedly! GCC+bounds checking have been available for about 2 years. For some reason it hasn't made it into the standard GCC distribution (or hadn't, the last time I looked). The latest set of patches are for 2.7.2 - I would guess applying them to 2.7.2.1 shouldn't be too difficult. [Home page for GCC with bounds-checking] http://www-dse.doc.ic.ac.uk/~rj3/bounds-checking.html [Release-directory for GCC with bounds-checking] ftp://dse.doc.ic.ac.uk/pub/misc/bcc Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ eivind@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 10:56:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23920 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23914 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) with UUCP id TAA14090; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:54:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from oo7 (oo7.dimaga.com [192.0.0.65]) by dimaga.com (8.7.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA16857; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:42:39 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970214194239.00a08de0@dimaga.com> X-Sender: eivind@dimaga.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:42:40 +0100 To: Net Access Manager From: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: Unix Shell Accounts Cc: Joerg Wunsch , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 08:50 AM 2/12/97 +0000, Net Access Manager wrote: > >> As Net Access Manager wrote: >> >> > Erm, well if you try compling FreeBSD current you will find that it >> > says version 3.0 on the boot up message. >> >> Sure, but that doesn't mean it's released yet. >> >> j@uriah 370% uname -sr >> FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT >> ^^^^^^^ >> >> Also, i for sure wouldn't put up a -current machine for public >> access... > >Well, actually we use a snap of -current for all our unix boxes as it is >more stable than V2.4 release and supports nis better -- we have uptimes >of over 2 weeks. Please tell us where you got 2.4-RELEASE - this might save the FreeBSD developers a LOT of work for all three of 2.2-RELEASE, 2.3-RELEASE and 2.4-RELEASE. :) (Joerg should be especially interested, as he presently is putting down a lot of work managing the final touches for 2.2-RELEASE) Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ eivind@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 14:34:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06275 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06266 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA06779; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:34:35 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id XAA12003; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:26:42 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:26:42 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: cmott@srv.net (Charles Mott) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow References: <199702140448.OAA27909@ogre.devetir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Mott on Feb 13, 1997 23:05:49 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Charles Mott wrote: > Would there be any problems with code that assumes a pointer is the same > size as a long int? Probably not for the i386 architecture in ``flat'' mode. But you can see the problem already quickly if you think of that dreaded segmented mode (with its various memory models). I think the C FAQ contains a panopticum of other weird architectures where this assumption is invalid. It's generally considered bad style to assume this. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 14:54:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07737 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07683 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:53:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA07114; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:53:13 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id XAA12141; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:48:53 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 23:48:52 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: robmel@innotts.co.uk (Robin Melville) Cc: syssgm@devetir.qld.gov.au (Stephen McKay), cmott@srv.net (Charles Mott), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Relations References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Robin Melville on Feb 14, 1997 08:11:08 +0000 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Robin Melville wrote: > Why don't we follow MSoft's lead of putting music videos on the > Win95 distribution CD? Because we're not going to produce the Win95 distribution CD. :-) > I propose an MPEG of Jordan singing "My Way" for the 2.2 release :) _ But only if his cats also take part in singing. :-) ~ ^^^ me, stuffing my ears. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 15:07:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA08629 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08624 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar (ras539.srv.net [205.180.127.39]) by who.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA12164 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmott@localhost) by darkstar (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA08671; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:05:17 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:05:16 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Relations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > As Robin Melville wrote: > > Why don't we follow MSoft's lead of putting music videos on the > > Win95 distribution CD? > > Because we're not going to produce the Win95 distribution CD. :-) > > > I propose an MPEG of Jordan singing "My Way" for the 2.2 release :) > _ > But only if his cats also take part in singing. :-) > ~ > > ^^^ me, stuffing my > ears. :) > -- > cheers, J"org I would suggest an MPEG video of a politburo meeting, with the core team wearing rented Soviet-era military uniforms. Perhaps we could have an appropriate national anthem from the period playing as the soundtrack. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 16:21:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14045 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA14037 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 16:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA09270 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 01:20:31 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA12478; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 01:06:09 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 01:06:09 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Relations References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Mott on Feb 14, 1997 16:05:16 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Charles Mott wrote: > > > I propose an MPEG of Jordan singing "My Way" for the 2.2 release :) > > _ > > But only if his cats also take part in singing. :-) > > ~ > I would suggest an MPEG video of a politburo meeting, with the core team Hmm, i think i've trashed too much of the old stuff already here. I don't think i still have a GDR flag to put on the table or such... > wearing rented Soviet-era military uniforms. Perhaps we could have an Hmm, but i've got a uniform for this! Uh, no, the politbuerocrats never wore uniforms... too bad. They just wore suits, and you never get me into wearing something like _this_. > appropriate national anthem from the period playing as the soundtrack. Ah, yes, this one's good. I for sure should still find one from the days when the GDR crashed... i don't think anybody's still claiming a copyright on this. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 18:30:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA21472 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from admin.cyberenet.net (mail@admin.cyberenet.net [204.213.252.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA21467 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 18:30:23 -0800 (PST) From: wb2oyc@cyberenet.net Received: from ux1.cyberenet.net [204.213.252.2] (root) by admin.cyberenet.net with smtp (Exim 1.59 #1) id 0vvZtM-0002My-00; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 21:30:20 -0500 Received: from wb2oyc.ppp.cyberenet.net by ux1.cyberenet.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #8) id m0vvZtK-0006FfC; Fri, 14 Feb 97 21:30 EST Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 0.4 [p0] on Linux Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 21:17:58 -0500 (EST) To: Snob Art Genre Subject: Re: misc Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 23:58:56 Snob Art Genre wrote: ^^^^ See this; that, and the attitude it presents is what shows thru here like a shining lite! Proves my point completely! > >It was your attitude and tone that people (including me) reacted to, not What are you, clairvoiant? >your facts. Everyone's aware of FreeBSD's ATAPI CD-ROM problems, and >messages that read "you suck because [linux | win95 | winnt] can You're reading between the lines here. I never said that "you suck because...." Altho' now that you mention it! :) >[recognize my cd-rom | score well on whankstone | execute an infinite >loop in 10 seconds] and FreeBSD can't!" What the hell are you talkin' about! For Pete's sake, all I said was these others all work, and FreeBSD doesn't. The rest of the crap you guys added yourself. >Do you seriously think that anyone would bother to flame you for pointing Paul >out what they already know? Do you seriously think that anyone has a >better knowledge of FreeBSD's limitations than the core team? > >> >> they all work and FreeBSD doesn't, whose wrong here dude? You >> >> >No Microsoft OS works by any definition of "work" that I use. Linux >> >works, FreeBSD works. >> > >> You've got your head in the sand if you really believe that! I hate uSlop > >If I really believe what? That Linux and FreeBSD work? You're not going >to convince me otherwise. That M$'s OSs don't work? I believe what I >see, and that's what I see. > >> too, and the only reason I do have it here at all is because I need it to >> support those at work! Thats why I prefer Linux or FreeBSD, and use >> both far more than the other crap. But you guys really do have a holier >> than thou attitude sometimes. I've been on this list for about a year by >> the way, so I'm not some transient flamer............ > >So what are you? An angel of truth, sent to tell the -questions-reading >community that FreeBSD doesn't always detect ATAPI CD-ROMs correctly? >Some kind of martyr? Save yourself the effort, no one else is interested >in playing any of those games. > >> Paul > > Ben > >"You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 19:02:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA23182 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23154 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA05837; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:01:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 19:01:44 -0800 (PST) From: Snob Art Genre To: wb2oyc@cyberenet.net cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: misc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 wb2oyc@cyberenet.net wrote: > > On 23:58:56 Snob Art Genre wrote: > ^^^^ > See this; that, and the attitude it presents is what shows thru here like > a shining lite! Proves my point completely! Actually, it's an anagram for my name, "Ben Rosengart". Other anagrams for it include "Ten Rare Bongs" and "Stranger Bone." I found these at Eli Burke's excellent website at http://csugrad.cs.vt.edu/~eburke/anagrams.html. Of course, you could make an argument that anagrams are true, which would make them something like the Hebrew gematriya, and would then make your above point valid. Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 14 22:01:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA02535 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:01:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA02529 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA09086; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:01:03 -0800 (PST) To: wb2oyc@cyberenet.net cc: Snob Art Genre , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: misc In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Feb 1997 21:17:58 EST." Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 22:01:03 -0800 Message-ID: <9082.855986463@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > See this; that, and the attitude it presents is what shows thru here like > a shining lite! Proves my point completely! Oh yes, totally. HEY! Look, is that Elvis?! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 04:35:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA20075 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20069 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 04:35:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) with UUCP id NAA24911; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:34:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from oo7 (oo7.dimaga.com [192.0.0.65]) by dimaga.com (8.7.5/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA26171; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 12:44:08 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970215124408.00c7e5e0@dimaga.com> X-Sender: eivind@dimaga.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 12:44:10 +0100 To: "Arne H. Juul" From: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: NULL as ((void*)0) (was Re: strlen() question) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to chat) At 11:26 AM 2/15/97 +0100, Arne H. Juul wrote: >> BTW: I just got another idea - if we can turn the definition of NULL >> between ((void*)0) and 0 we can detect if NULL is abused if compiling on a >> machine with different sizeof(void*) and sizeof(int). If used correctly, >> code will be equal no matter what the definition - if used incorrectly, >> different code should result. This can provide fairly automatic detection >> of errors, provided we have two different builds. > >I think this is a good idea too, but it isn't really neccessary >to change anything in the main source tree for this (though it >would make it easier if there was just one place to change, of >course). I have done a make world with (most) of the #define's >for NULL set to ((void *)0) and have found a few minor bugs >already (23% done). PR will follow. Great! (Trying to bring clarity and picking nits :) >BTW, as far as I can see from my C standard the rules for NULL >are pretty lax; both (1-1) and something like > typedef enum { __ournull=0 } __dummynull; > #define NULL __ournull >should be legal. When doing some tests with actual implementations, your understanding of the standard seem to be the common one. The C FAQ claims differently, and I've always believed it correct and been slightly puzzled at the wording of the standard. The rationale also seems to support the 0/0L/(void*)0 variant: [Excerpt from the ANSI C Rationale section 4.1.5] >NULL can be defined as any null pointer constant. Thus existing code >can retain definitions of NULL as 0 or 0L , but an implementation may >choose to define it as (void *)0; this latter form of definition is >convenient on architectures where the pointer size(s) do(es) not equal >the size of any integer type. It has never been wise to use NULL in >place of an arbitrary pointer as a function argument, however, since >pointers to different types need not be the same size. The library >avoids this problem by providing special macros for the arguments to >signal, the one library function that might see a null function >pointer.) Anyway; obscure definitions of NULL wouldn't buy us much; the only interesting feature of a NULL pointer is what types it introduce in a non-pointer context, and there only seem to be three available modifiers: (1) "Pointerness" - whether it introduce (void*), to force it to be used only in a pointer context. (2) Signedness - whether it is unsigned or signed (3) Length - short/int/long Which calculations lead up to this could be used as a stress test of the compiler, but we're really interested in stress-testing the sources, aren't we? Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ eivind@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 13:46:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14915 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14900 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA08140; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:49:27 +0200 (EET) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:49:27 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Charles Mott cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Relations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > > As Robin Melville wrote: > > > Why don't we follow MSoft's lead of putting music videos on the > > > Win95 distribution CD? > > > > Because we're not going to produce the Win95 distribution CD. :-) > > > > > I propose an MPEG of Jordan singing "My Way" for the 2.2 release :) > > _ > > But only if his cats also take part in singing. :-) > > ~ > > > > ^^^ me, stuffing my > > ears. :) > > -- > > cheers, J"org > > I would suggest an MPEG video of a politburo meeting, with the core team > wearing rented Soviet-era military uniforms. Perhaps we could have an > appropriate national anthem from the period playing as the soundtrack. It would not look convincing enough. I am afraid none of the core-team members is old enough :-) Sander > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 14:15:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16087 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar (dialin6.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.252.106]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA16075 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmott@localhost) by darkstar (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA10879; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:15:11 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:15:09 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Public Relations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I would suggest an MPEG video of a politburo meeting, with the core team > > wearing rented Soviet-era military uniforms. Perhaps we could have an > > appropriate national anthem from the period playing as the soundtrack. > > It would not look convincing enough. I am afraid none of the core-team > members is old enough :-) Without a General Secretary (President), a politburo perhaps is no longer the correct political analogy to the FreeBSD core team. The situation is now more like a council of Mongol chieftains after the passing away of Ghengis Khan. This might make a more interesting MPEG video. Charles Mott P.S. Someday I will learn how to type an umlaut for J"org's benefit. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 14:42:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17786 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu (albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17778 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu by albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) with ESMTP id RAA21089; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:43:43 -0500 Received: by kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/4.0) id ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:41:35 -0500 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:41:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199702152241.RAA21313@kropotkin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de CC: cmott@srv.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Subject: Re: Trying to understand stack overflow From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Would there be any problems with code that assumes a pointer is the same >> size as a long int? >Probably not for the i386 architecture in ``flat'' mode. But you can >see the problem already quickly if you think of that dreaded segmented >mode (with its various memory models). I haven't seen much code that assumes sizeof(void*) == sizeof(long int), although I've seen quite a bit of code that assumes that sizeof(void*) == sizeof(int), or worse, that a void* and an int can be exchanged without lossage. (If the former is true, then the latter is fine so long as you don't start calculating array offsets or doing other pointer arithmetic.) >I think the C FAQ contains a panopticum of other weird architectures >where this assumption is invalid. It's generally considered bad style >to assume this. If I recall correctly, this is invalid on many 64-bit machines. -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the FSF's, my employer's, or my dog's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 14:52:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18681 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:52:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18643 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 14:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA00568 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:52:20 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id XAA19334; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:48:36 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:48:35 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Public Relations References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Mott on Feb 15, 1997 15:15:09 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Charles Mott wrote: > P.S. Someday I will learn how to type an umlaut for J"org's benefit. Use emacs's iso-insert mode, and type C-8 " o. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 15:22:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23696 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23686 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.176.130.2] (serialA01.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.2]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA23237; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:22:08 GMT X-Sender: robmel@mailhost.innotts.co.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 23:22:06 +0000 To: Charles Mott , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: Public Relations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id PAA23690 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 3:15 pm -0700 15/2/97, Charles Mott wrote: >> > I would suggest an MPEG video of a politburo meeting, with the core team >> > wearing rented Soviet-era military uniforms.... >> It would not look convincing enough. I am afraid none of the core-team >> members is old enough :-) > >Without a General Secretary (President), a politburo perhaps is no longer >the correct political analogy to the FreeBSD core team. The situation is >now more like a council of Mongol chieftains after the passing away of >Ghengis Khan. > >This might make a more interesting MPEG video. This strand achieves 8/10 on the surreal scale >P.S. Someday I will learn how to type an umlaut for J"org's benefit. Try Jörg :) Love Robin. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 15:35:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24572 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:35:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from darkstar (dialin6.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.252.106]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24563 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cmott@localhost) by darkstar (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA11121; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:35:15 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:35:14 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Relations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 15 Feb 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > As Charles Mott wrote: > > P.S. Someday I will learn how to type an umlaut for J"org's benefit. > > Use emacs's iso-insert mode, and type C-8 " o. :-) Someday I will learn how to use emacs. I use still use vi, which I learned in the late 70s at Berkeley, forgot completely over 15 years, and then relearned with with Linux and FreeBSD. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 18:22:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06505 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA06495 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 18:22:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id DAA04402 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:22:04 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id DAA23650; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:20:14 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:20:13 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Public Relations References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.55-PL10 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Mott on Feb 15, 1997 16:35:14 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Charles Mott wrote: > > Use emacs's iso-insert mode, and type C-8 " o. :-) > > Someday I will learn how to use emacs. I use still use vi, which I > learned in the late 70s at Berkeley, forgot completely over 15 years, and > then relearned with with Linux and FreeBSD. So, run it in an xterm, and make sure you've got the ``compose key'' functionality available. I usually map it to ScrLk, with: Section "Keyboard" ... SCROLLLOCK compose in XF86Config. Then, ScrLk-"-o does about the same in an xterm. For a plain ``meta key'' (which adds bit 7), it's Meta-v. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 15 22:45:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA15977 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (root@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15965 for ; Sat, 15 Feb 1997 22:45:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from monty-port12.shoal.net.au (monty-port12.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.22]) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA08837 for ; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:44:53 +1100 (EST) Received: by monty-port12.shoal.net.au with Microsoft Mail id <01BC1C31.0F176D20@monty-port12.shoal.net.au>; Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:44:29 +-1100 Message-ID: <01BC1C31.0F176D20@monty-port12.shoal.net.au> From: Andrew Perry To: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: misc Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:34:35 +-1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > See this; that, and the attitude it presents is what shows thru here like > a shining lite! Proves my point completely! Oh yes, totally. HEY! Look, is that Elvis?! :-) Jordan Sorry! The King is dead! :( 8-) Andrew Perry