From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 25 10:48:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00829 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00824 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA17807; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:47:34 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:47:34 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199705251747.KAA17807@kithrup.com> To: dave@persprog.com Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel Pentium II released Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.hardware In-Reply-To: <338726E2.6A9D29F4.kithrup.freebsd.hardware@persprog.com> References: <199705231702.KAA29056@george.lbl.gov> <19970523142235.11747@ct.picker.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <338726E2.6A9D29F4.kithrup.freebsd.hardware@persprog.com> you write: >The other problem with this design is that it will be short lived since >the Deschutes will require a revised socket (called "Slot II" I >believe). Actually, the Deschutes is supposed to use the "Slot One" as well. But this lets me get on a rant: I am sick of Intel right now. They have been worrying me for quite a while, as they have a monopoly on the computer market. (More than 85% of all processors in the world currently in use are Intel processors. That constitutes a monopoly by most economists definitions.) And that's not good enough: now they're trying to use the patent system to prevent anyone else from making x86 clones. First, the one that really got me worried: Intel has patented some instructions. Yes, *instructions*. Specifically, they have applied for patents on some instructions, apparantly for the Merced, all to deal with moving back and forth between x86 mode and IA-64 mode. (A couple of instructions to move data back and forth between IA-64 registers and x86 registers, and a couple of instructions to jump between x86 mode and IA-64 mode.) The semantics for these instructions are fairly obvious, I think -- if you accept that you are going to want to be able to switch back and forth between two instruction sets, there are only so many ways you can do it. *But*: since the patent describes the instruction format, that may be enough for the PTO decide it is "novel" and patentable. Meaning nobody will be able to make a compatible processor. Next, there's the "Slot One." Why did Intel drop the Socket 7 and similar? Because they couldn't get a patent on those. Instead, they came up with this "Slot One," which is different enough that they can patent it. And they have. This means two things: nobody can make a motherboard without Intel's permission, and nobody can make a card for the slot without Intel's permission. Previously, if Intel had tried to do this, the motherboard manufacturers would have told Intel to go fly a kite -- and Intel would have had some problems. But now Intel is a major manufacturer of motherboards -- so any other manufacturer who says that, Intel can say, "Fine, we'll just make more of our own." And, of course, Intel is certainly not going to agree to any licenses with Cyrix or AMD. So nobody but Intel and HP will be able to make new processors. I'm beginning to think that the Java Virtual Machine isn't such a bad thing after all -- not because it's any threat to uSoft, but because it means Intel may not be as important. I'm very frightened of Intel these days. And... I don't think there's anything that can be done about it. With uSoft, forcing it to split into an applications company and an OS company would handle most of the problems, I think. But Intel just has the x86. Without that, it's nothing; and, conversely, you could get rid of everything but the x86 line at Intel, and it wouldn't make a dint in their profits or revenues. That has been my rant for the day. Sean. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 25 13:43:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08695 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 13:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (taob@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08690 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 13:43:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA22122; Sun, 25 May 1997 16:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:42:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Charles Henrich cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium II-266Mhz In-Reply-To: <19970522202155.61543@crh.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 22 May 1997, Charles Henrich wrote: > > 8:13pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 > 1000+0 records in > 1000+0 records out > 1048576000 bytes transferred in 9.969560 secs (105177762 bytes/sec) > > 8:14pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128k count=8000 > 8000+0 records in > 8000+0 records out > 1048576000 bytes transferred in 4.389535 secs (238880886 bytes/sec) I presume the first involves the CPU going to main memory, while the second fits entirely in L2 cache? What's the bandwidth over a PCI bus? 132MB/sec? It looks like the CPU can push almost twice that. Time for a 100-MHz bus or a separate CPU-to-RAM bus... -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 25 22:00:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA28501 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 22:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA28494 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 22:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA24118; Mon, 26 May 1997 01:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970526010046.05547@crh.cl.msu.edu> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:00:46 -0400 From: Charles Henrich To: Brian Tao Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium II-266Mhz References: <19970522202155.61543@crh.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74 In-Reply-To: ; from Brian Tao on Sun, May 25, 1997 at 04:42:50PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-970422-RELENG Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On the subject of Re: Pentium II-266Mhz, Brian Tao stated: > On Thu, 22 May 1997, Charles Henrich wrote: > > > > 8:13pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 1000+0 records > > in 1000+0 records out 1048576000 bytes transferred in 9.969560 secs > > (105177762 bytes/sec) > > > > 8:14pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128k count=8000 8000+0 records > > in 8000+0 records out 1048576000 bytes transferred in 4.389535 secs > > (238880886 bytes/sec) > > I presume the first involves the CPU going to main memory, while the > second fits entirely in L2 cache? What's the bandwidth over a PCI bus? > 132MB/sec? It looks like the CPU can push almost twice that. Time for > a 100-MHz bus or a separate CPU-to-RAM bus... Yep, thats been my gripe for a long time. The PCI bus sucks, it needs to be twice the bandwidth of the CPU (or more!) for growth, and memory access times need to go down. I would bet if someone did a formal study, that a huge percentage of Intel cycles are spent waiting for loads.. Speed up the Pentium(Pro/PII) without changing a thing, except the motherboad! -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 25 22:42:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00519 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 22:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00514 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 22:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA02293; Sun, 25 May 1997 22:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199705260542.WAA02293@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Charles Henrich cc: Brian Tao , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium II-266Mhz In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 May 1997 01:00:46 EDT." <19970526010046.05547@crh.cl.msu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:42:17 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If you like check out, for info on memory bandwith, pci bus, etc.. http://sysdoc.pair.com Amancio >From The Desk Of Charles Henrich : > On the subject of Re: Pentium II-266Mhz, Brian Tao stated: > > > On Thu, 22 May 1997, Charles Henrich wrote: > > > > > > 8:13pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 1000+0 records > > > in 1000+0 records out 1048576000 bytes transferred in 9.969560 secs > > > (105177762 bytes/sec) > > > > > > 8:14pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128k count=8000 8000+0 record s > > > in 8000+0 records out 1048576000 bytes transferred in 4.389535 secs > > > (238880886 bytes/sec) > > > > I presume the first involves the CPU going to main memory, while the > > second fits entirely in L2 cache? What's the bandwidth over a PCI bus? > > 132MB/sec? It looks like the CPU can push almost twice that. Time for > > a 100-MHz bus or a separate CPU-to-RAM bus... > > Yep, thats been my gripe for a long time. The PCI bus sucks, it needs to be > twice the bandwidth of the CPU (or more!) for growth, and memory access times > need to go down. I would bet if someone did a formal study, that a huge > percentage of Intel cycles are spent waiting for loads.. Speed up the > Pentium(Pro/PII) without changing a thing, except the motherboad! > > -Crh > > Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu > > http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 25 23:13:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA01412 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01397 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA21854; Mon, 26 May 1997 09:12:06 +0300 (EEST) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:12:06 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Charles Henrich cc: Brian Tao , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium II-266Mhz In-Reply-To: <19970526010046.05547@crh.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 26 May 1997, Charles Henrich wrote: > On the subject of Re: Pentium II-266Mhz, Brian Tao stated: > [snip] > > I presume the first involves the CPU going to main memory, while the > > second fits entirely in L2 cache? What's the bandwidth over a PCI bus? > > 132MB/sec? It looks like the CPU can push almost twice that. Time for > > a 100-MHz bus or a separate CPU-to-RAM bus... > > Yep, thats been my gripe for a long time. The PCI bus sucks, it needs to be > twice the bandwidth of the CPU (or more!) for growth, and memory access times > need to go down. I would bet if someone did a formal study, that a huge > percentage of Intel cycles are spent waiting for loads.. Speed up the > Pentium(Pro/PII) without changing a thing, except the motherboad! PCI doesn't suck. These are the chipset makers who do. Just get a motherboard with 64-bit PCI backbone (that is, the 32 bit slots are behind 64/32 bit bridges) provides twice the bandwidth. As for memory, it is also your problem that you don't have a motherboard with memory controller clocked at xxxMhz with a wider datapath than 64 bits. And the ability to have real big real fast caches. Complain to the chipset makers. Before everyone starts shouting at me - the problem in the PC world is that even if you have the money, you currently can't get what you need. Sander PS. Port FreeBSD to PowerPC and buy RS/6000 servers from IBM. Some of these do have 100Mhz/166Mhz and wide bus with 604e (which has about the same performance as PPro 200 at 200Mhz/50Mhz bus). The cost? Well who's talking about that. > > -Crh > > Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu > > http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 25 23:15:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA01447 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from csd.cs.technion.ac.il (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA01442 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (nadav@localhost) by csd.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA15206; Mon, 26 May 1997 09:14:56 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: csd.cs.technion.ac.il: nadav owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:14:56 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: dave@persprog.com Subject: Re: Intel Pentium II released In-Reply-To: <199705251747.KAA17807@kithrup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 25 May 1997, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > In article <338726E2.6A9D29F4.kithrup.freebsd.hardware@persprog.com> you write: > >The other problem with this design is that it will be short lived since > >the Deschutes will require a revised socket (called "Slot II" I > >believe). > > Actually, the Deschutes is supposed to use the "Slot One" as well. > > But this lets me get on a rant: I am sick of Intel right now. They have > been worrying me for quite a while, as they have a monopoly on the computer > market. (More than 85% of all processors in the world currently in use are > Intel processors. That constitutes a monopoly by most economists > definitions.) > > And that's not good enough: now they're trying to use the patent system to > prevent anyone else from making x86 clones. > [snip] Well, patents can backfire :-) For all Intel haters, DEC just sued Intel for violating microprocessor architecture patents last week. They claim Intel intentionaly used patented DEC technology in the design of the Pentium, PentiumPro and Pentium II. Take a look at: http://www.digital.com/whats-new.html for details. What worries me is that, at least here, this went unnoticed by the press, much like when someone sues Microsoft for violating copyrights or whatever, meaning that it might be a lost cause. Still, I think I'll follow this... Just in case you didn't know, Nadav From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 25 23:36:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA02211 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA02206 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id XAA20276; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:36:33 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:36:33 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199705260636.XAA20276@kithrup.com> To: nadav@cs.technion.ac.il Subject: Re: Intel Pentium II released Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: References: <199705251747.KAA17807@kithrup.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article you write: >What worries me is that, at least here, this went unnoticed >by the press, much like when someone sues Microsoft for violating >copyrights or whatever, meaning that it might be a lost cause. Still, I >think I'll follow this... Trust me... around here, it has *not* gone unnoticed. Of course, I live in Silicon Valley, where new chip announcements make the front page :). There's also a lot of discussion going on in comp.arch, including all of the patents being posted along with some analysis. Also, DEC is not claiming that Intel "intentionally" infringed; they are claiming that Intel knew about the patents at some point before DEC filed suit. (It's a subtle but important distinction.) Yes, I am rooting against Intel in this case. Not because of any love for DEC, but because something needs to be done about Intel. In a related issue, Cyrix, I think it was, also sued Intel last week. I don't know the details about that, though. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 26 00:01:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA02824 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 26 May 1997 00:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02819 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 00:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id KAA02064 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 26 May 1997 10:01:12 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199705260701.KAA02064@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Pentium II-266Mhz In-Reply-To: from Brian Tao at "May 25, 97 04:42:50 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:01:12 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 8:13pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 > > 1000+0 records in > > 1000+0 records out > > 1048576000 bytes transferred in 9.969560 secs (105177762 bytes/sec) > > > > 8:14pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128k count=8000 > > 8000+0 records in > > 8000+0 records out > > 1048576000 bytes transferred in 4.389535 secs (238880886 bytes/sec) pluto# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 1000+0 records in 1000+0 records out 1048576000 bytes transferred in 8.786672 secs (119337105 bytes/sec) pluto# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128k count=8000 8000+0 records in 8000+0 records out 1048576000 bytes transferred in 8.661279 secs (121064798 bytes/sec) just a thought here... which motherboard you used? my test is gigabyte ga586hx512, and as far as i see this, the board/chipset is faster in pci performance, but ofcourse, coz of external l2, it's slower in that... mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 26 00:28:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA03791 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 26 May 1997 00:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc8.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA03784 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 00:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.90.6]) by ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA22471 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 09:28:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from thomas@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15943; Mon, 26 May 1997 09:28:21 +0200 (CEST) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [alt.humor.best-of-usenet] [comp.unix.shell] unix acronyms -collecting a list? From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 26 May 1997 09:28:20 +0200 Message-ID: <8767w6pu97.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Lines: 47 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.15 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: Felix von Leitner Newsgroups: alt.humor.best-of-usenet Subject: [comp.unix.shell] unix acronyms -collecting a list? Followup-To: alt.humor.best-of-usenet.d Date: 24 May 1997 08:27:00 -0700 Organization: best of usenet humor Message-ID: Subject: Re: unix acronyms -collecting a list? From: "Karl E. Taylor" Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell, comp.os.linux.misc, comp.os.linux.x, alt.os.linux, comp.unix.bsd.misc, comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc, gnu.misc.discuss, comp.unix.solaris Tony Walton wrote: > yacc == yet another compiler compiler > > -- > Tony -- No, no, no! I have it on not one good shread of evidence that it happened this way. Two hippies at Berkely in the early to mid 70's, after a long night of pursuing a checked pharmicutical history, where working in the computer lab when one of the guys felt the night befor was about to make another apperance. He leaned over to his friends desk and put is face it to the trash can and proceeded to see breakfast come back to haunt him. To this his highly enlightned friend stated "Hey man, would you not yacc in my trash can, ooooo, yacc, yea man, they'll never figure that one out." And thus yacc, an otherwise semi-normal bodily function, entered into the UNIX relm and we have been yacc'n ever since. ;-) Well, it could have happend, right? -- Moderators accept or reject articles based solely on the criteria posted in the Frequently Asked Questions. Article content is the responsibility of the submitter. Submit articles to ahbou-sub@acpub.duke.edu. To write to the moderators, send mail to ahbou-mod@acpub.duke.edu. ------- End of forwarded message ------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 26 05:57:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA16116 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 26 May 1997 05:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA16109 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 05:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papillon.lemis.com by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0wVzKr-000QeFC; Mon, 26 May 97 14:57 MET DST Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id UAA00645; Mon, 26 May 1997 20:53:23 +0800 (CST) From: grog@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <199705261253.UAA00645@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Pentium II-266Mhz In-Reply-To: <199705260701.KAA02064@shadows.aeon.net> from mika ruohotie at "May 26, 97 10:01:12 am" To: bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net (mika ruohotie) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:53:20 +0800 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mika ruohotie writes: >>> 8:13pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 >>> 1000+0 records in >>> 1000+0 records out >>> 1048576000 bytes transferred in 9.969560 secs (105177762 bytes/sec) >>> >>> 8:14pm crh> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128k count=8000 >>> 8000+0 records in >>> 8000+0 records out >>> 1048576000 bytes transferred in 4.389535 secs (238880886 bytes/sec) > > pluto# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 > 1000+0 records in > 1000+0 records out > 1048576000 bytes transferred in 8.786672 secs (119337105 bytes/sec) > pluto# dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128k count=8000 > 8000+0 records in > 8000+0 records out > 1048576000 bytes transferred in 8.661279 secs (121064798 bytes/sec) > > just a thought here... which motherboard you used? > > my test is gigabyte ga586hx512, and as far as i see this, the board/chipset > is faster in pci performance, but ofcourse, coz of external l2, it's slower > in that... OK, is this really *the* performance measurement? I'm sitting here in my hotel room in Beijing with a seriously underpowered AcerNote Light (75 MHz Pentium, allegedly (and I can believe it) with no cache), and I get: === grog@papillon (/dev/ttyp3) ~ 7 -> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=1m count=1000 1000+0 records in 1000+0 records out 1048576000 bytes transferred in 17.784494 secs (58960125 bytes/sec) === grog@papillon (/dev/ttyp3) ~ 8 -> dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null bs=128k count=8000 8000+0 records in 8000+0 records out 1048576000 bytes transferred in 17.022243 secs (61600343 bytes/sec) === grog@papillon (/dev/ttyp3) ~ 9 -> Sure, it's noticably slower, but not as much as I would have hoped for your sake. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 26 11:51:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA04607 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 26 May 1997 11:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04591 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 11:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA13488; Mon, 26 May 1997 20:51:21 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA26374; Mon, 26 May 1997 20:28:16 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970526202816.MK02710@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:28:16 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: gary@systemics.com (Gary Howland) Subject: Re: /etc/ttys is broken References: <199705261532.RAA12214@internal-mail.systemics.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199705261532.RAA12214@internal-mail.systemics.com>; from Gary Howland on May 26, 1997 17:32:53 +0200 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Gary Howland wrote: > I humbly apologise for wasting everyone's time. I feel like such an idiot. We all feel like this every now and then. ;-) I've recently reported troubles with a new DAT tape drive in my machine at work, SCSI bus transaction errors. Well, *knocking on wood*, it seems like the actual problem was that i've accidentally disabled parity checking in the host adapter setup, when i meant to disable termination. <:-) (Both items are beneath in the AHA2940 setup menu.) Thanks go to Peter Dufault, for sending me the usual: ``But you have made sure about proper termination blah blah...'' reminder. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 26 13:22:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA09171 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from persprog.com (persprog.com [204.215.255.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09153 for ; Mon, 26 May 1997 13:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by persprog.com (8.7.5/4.10) id PAA28644; Mon, 26 May 1997 15:13:32 -0500 Received: from dave(192.2.2.6) by cerberus.ppi.com via smap (V1.3) id sma028642; Mon May 26 16:13:12 1997 Message-ID: <3389EEDA.81C339BF@persprog.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:13:14 -0400 From: Dave Alderman Reply-To: dave@persprog.com Organization: Personalized Programming, Inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Intel Pentium II released X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199705231702.KAA29056@george.lbl.gov> <19970523142235.11747@ct.picker.com> <199705251747.KAA17807@kithrup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > Actually, the Deschutes is supposed to use the "Slot One" as well. > I'm afraid this is not the case. See http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?97056.ep6map.htm for all the skinny on the upcoming Slot 2! In other words, your Slot One motherboard is a stopgap until Intel can put out Slot 2 in less than a year. Gotta love 'em. -- It's not my fault! It's some guy named "General Protection"! --Ratbert David W. Alderman dave@persprog.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 26 19:31:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22120 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 26 May 1997 19:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (taob@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA22110; Mon, 26 May 1997 19:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA26718; Mon, 26 May 1997 22:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:31:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: grog@FreeBSD.ORG cc: mika ruohotie , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Pentium II-266Mhz In-Reply-To: <199705261253.UAA00645@papillon.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 26 May 1997 grog@FreeBSD.ORG wrote: > > OK, is this really *the* performance measurement? I started this a couple of years ago because I figured it would be a good test to see how fast your CPU can shuffle blocks of memory between your main RAM, across the bus, through the cache and into its core. It also measures how fast your kernel bzero() and bcopy() routines are. At first, I pointed it out only because I was getting unexpected results on different platforms (e.g., try comparing an Ultrasparc against a POWER2 against a Pentium against an R8000). -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 27 04:03:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA07987 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 27 May 1997 04:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA07982 for ; Tue, 27 May 1997 04:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from 0@skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.0.19] for with ESMTP id PAA15211; Tue, 27 May 1997 15:01:13 +0400 Received: by skraldespand.demos.su id PAA04982; (8.8.5/D) Tue, 27 May 1997 15:02:34 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <19970527150234.37047@skraldespand.demos.su> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:02:34 +0400 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [kalend@demos.su: Private Message. (fwd)] More SPAM to follow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.65_p2,4-7,10-11,15,18,21-22 Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That's kinda FYI, - more SPAM to follow from that newmediagroup.com, I guess. Blah, as if 1 cyberpromo wasn't enough ;-( -mishania -----Forwarded message from Alexander Ilin ----- From: Alexander Ilin To: Mikhail Sokolov Subject: Private Message. (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 May 97 20:57:31 EST From: Freedom of Speech To: UniSpam@Join!.com Subject: Private Message. Apologies for mailing you unnanounced. Your personal e-mail address has been very, very carefully selected, to announce the birth of UniSPAM.. According to my research, you are either a bulk e-mail address list seller, have purchased bulk address lists, have enquired about bulk address lists, have a bulk-friendly ISP, or we have received a copy of your commercial mail or news group posting. You may be interested in hearing about UniSPAM Inc. We are trying to contact all fellow 'spammers' - who try to make the internet more interesting by informative, creative advertising ;-) in an effort for us to 'pull forces' and also to announce the birth of 'UniSPAM Inc.' (United Spammers Inc.). We are already 50 strong in the first few days alone! Please e-mail me requesting details on how to register (free) for newsletters, details of the interactive internet forum, up to date news & new services/ products, you can even apply for a UniSpam T-shirt *US only* (we had 100 printed for fun at the private launch here in Toledo! also lists of the latest anti-spam campaigners (you know - the type of jerks who try to trace you and send complaints to postmasters and webmasters here there and everywhere and winge in news groups - and also full details on how to deal with them and contact the West German NuKeNeT! We are looking forward to hearing from you and building firm pro-active relationships. Sincerely, Jim 'Wallace' Y. President and Founder member of UniSPAM Inc. jim@newmediagroup.com phone in confidence: 419-243-5963 PS - If you have received this e-mail and are not connected with electronic internet marketing, then I send apologies. If you know anyone who is an internet marketer then please forward this e-mail to them. -----End of forwarded message----- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 27 06:36:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA13590 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 27 May 1997 06:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13583 for ; Tue, 27 May 1997 06:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA24809; Tue, 27 May 1997 06:35:38 -0700 (PDT) To: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [kalend@demos.su: Private Message. (fwd)] More SPAM to follow In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 May 1997 15:02:34 +0400." <19970527150234.37047@skraldespand.demos.su> Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:35:37 -0700 Message-ID: <24806.864740137@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That's kinda FYI, - more SPAM to follow from that newmediagroup.com, I guess. > Blah, as if 1 cyberpromo wasn't enough ;-( Please do not forward spam to freebsd-chat; I know you don't like spam and we certainly don't like it either, but we've all already seen this and now you've simply forced us to see it again. :) Thanks. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 28 04:55:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA08030 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 May 1997 04:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.tlk.com (root@pegasus.tlk.com [194.97.84.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA08025 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 04:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ramsey.tb.9715.org(really [194.97.84.65]) by pegasus.tlk.com via sendmail with esmtp (ident root using rfc1413) id for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 13:55:39 +0200 (MET DST)) Received: by ramsey.tb.9715.org via sendmail with stdio id for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 28 May 1997 13:55:47 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: From: torstenb@ramsey.tb.9715.org (Torsten Blum) Subject: uptime To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:55:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk After 385 days, I have to shutdown my most stable FreeBSD box running 2.2-current from January 1996. My current employer is moving to a new building crashme up 385+22:47, 0 users, load 0.48, 0.62, 0.85 *sigh* -tb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 28 06:02:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA10173 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 May 1997 06:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix.stylo.it (unix.stylo.it [193.76.98.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA10166; Wed, 28 May 1997 06:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from styloserver.stylo.it (mail.stylo.it [193.76.98.13]) by unix.stylo.it (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA25245; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:59:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by STYLOSERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:58:56 +0200 Message-ID: <31EBCC36B676D01197E400801E032495021F51@STYLOSERVER> From: Angelo Turetta To: "'ahuger@silence.secnet.com'" , "'Jonathan M. Bresler'" , "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: New Commercial Security Product for FreeBSD Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:58:51 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA10167 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The word Ballista means Liar in italian, which is very funny when used as the name for a network security product. It's just like the new Quarterdek MagnaRAM, described as a RAM optimizer, whose name sounds like EatRAM for an italian. Best regards Angelo Turetta - Stylo Multimedia - Italy > -----Original Message----- > From: > Sent: mercoledì 28 maggio 1997 3.24 > To: freebsd-announce@hub.freebsd.org > Cc: ahuger@silence.secnet.com > Subject: New Commercial Security Product for FreeBSD > > > > > ###### ## ## ###### > ## ### ## ## > ###### ## # ## ## > ## ## ### ## > ###### . ## ## . ###### . > > Secure Networks Inc. > > Commercial Announcement > May 05, 1997 > > Ballista Auditing Package Release Information > > > ( ... ) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 28 10:25:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22671 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA22664 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA19204 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:25:03 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA04860; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:19:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970528191940.KE10371@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:19:40 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG ('freebsd-chat@freebsd.org') Subject: Re: New Commercial Security Product for FreeBSD References: <31EBCC36B676D01197E400801E032495021F51@STYLOSERVER> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <31EBCC36B676D01197E400801E032495021F51@STYLOSERVER>; from Angelo Turetta on May 28, 1997 14:58:51 +0200 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Angelo Turetta wrote: > The word Ballista means Liar in italian, which is very funny when used > as the name for a network security product. :-) > > ###### ## ## ###### > > ## ### ## ## > > ###### ## # ## ## > > ## ## ### ## > > ###### . ## ## . ###### . SNI is also funny -- it's the common abbreviation for Siemens-Nixdorf here, the German computer dinosaur. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 28 10:51:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23774 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23765 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 10:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA19664 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:51:26 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA04908; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:25:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970528192500.FV26497@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:25:00 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: uptime References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Torsten Blum on May 28, 1997 13:55:47 +0200 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Torsten Blum wrote: > crashme up 385+22:47, 0 users, load 0.48, 0.62, 0.85 Not bad for such an early 2.2-current system. In particular, given its name. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 28 14:38:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04627 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04622 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.tlk.com (root@pegasus.tlk.com [194.97.84.20]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29840 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ramsey.tb.9715.org(really [194.97.84.65]) by pegasus.tlk.com via sendmail with esmtp (ident root using rfc1413) id for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 23:37:24 +0200 (MET DST)) Received: by ramsey.tb.9715.org via sendmail with stdio id for joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de; Wed, 28 May 1997 23:37:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: From: torstenb@ramsey.tb.9715.org (Torsten Blum) Subject: Re: uptime In-Reply-To: <19970528192500.FV26497@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "May 28, 97 07:25:00 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:37:30 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > > crashme up 385+22:47, 0 users, load 0.48, 0.62, 0.85 > > Not bad for such an early 2.2-current system. In particular, given > its name. :-) Hehe, I gave it this name because it used to run Solaris x86. It has never seen uptime >8 days. Then I installed FreeBSD on it ;-) -tb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 28 16:34:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11430 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA11425 for ; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id RAA18669; Wed, 28 May 1997 17:33:51 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199705282333.RAA18669@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: [alt.humor.best-of-usenet] [comp.unix.shell] unix acronyms -collecting a list? To: tg@ihf.rwth-aachen.de (Thomas Gellekum) Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:33:51 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <8767w6pu97.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> from "Thomas Gellekum" at May 26, 97 09:28:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > yacc == yet another compiler compiler > > And thus yacc, an otherwise semi-normal bodily function, entered into > the UNIX relm and we have been yacc'n ever since. ;-) > > Well, it could have happend, right? Nope - yacc didn't come from Berkeley, it came from Bell Labs. Given the pedestrian nature of central New Jersey, the programming was probably yaccing up pizza and (excessive amounts of) beer. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 29 00:00:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA29773 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.blaze.net.au (server.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA29768 for ; Thu, 29 May 1997 00:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (papillon.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.74]) by server.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA04654; Thu, 29 May 1997 17:00:24 +1000 (EST) From: grog@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id QAA00637; Thu, 29 May 1997 16:07:36 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199705290637.QAA00637@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: uptime In-Reply-To: from Torsten Blum at "May 28, 97 01:55:47 pm" To: torstenb@ramsey.tb.9715.org (Torsten Blum) Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:07:36 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Torsten Blum writes: > After 385 days, I have to shutdown my most stable FreeBSD box > running 2.2-current from January 1996. My current employer is moving to > a new building > > crashme up 385+22:47, 0 users, load 0.48, 0.62, 0.85 My sympathies. I like the system name :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 29 02:35:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA04707 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 May 1997 02:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA04700 for ; Thu, 29 May 1997 02:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00348; Thu, 29 May 1997 19:35:35 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199705290935.TAA00348@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: torstenb@ramsey.tb.9715.org (Torsten Blum) cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: uptime In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 May 1997 23:37:30 +0200." X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:35:32 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > crashme up 385+22:47, 0 users, load 0.48, 0.62, 0.85 > > > > Not bad for such an early 2.2-current system. In particular, given > > its name. :-) > > Hehe, I gave it this name because it used to run Solaris x86. It has never > seen uptime >8 days. That was good going. We tried using Solaris 2.4 with it's aspppd for a dialup ppp server and it used to crash constantly. And when it crashed. only a reboot would reset the network interfaces correctly to allow another login. The error message reported via syslog was something like: Error #132 : Insert error message here. After numerous calls to Sun for "support", applying numerous patches from their web/ftp sites, we gave up and installed Linux*. The entire reason we went to Solaris was the 'commercial support' which turns out to be somewhat non-existent. Support in freely available operating systems seems to be significantly better, even if that is "user support". Regards, David [* Yes, Linux. FreeBSD did not support our hardware at the time; namely it didn't have Digiboard support, and I could never get it installed to boot correctly with a WD1007/ESDI drive. This was some years ago, and we've since got scsi and the dgb driver was added and fixed, so we're happily running FreeBSD now.] David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 29 15:36:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13647 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13639; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA29873; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:36:42 -0700 (PDT) To: "Gary Palmer" cc: Bill Paul , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin Makefile In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 29 May 1997 15:55:13 EDT." <6085.864935713@orion.webspan.net> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:36:42 -0700 Message-ID: <29870.864945402@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Someone having comments carved onto his forhead with a rusty railroad > spike is ART?!?! As for the razor blades on the chest *shudder* > > I gotta hand it to ya ... Americans have a weird sense of ``art'' :) Actually, I think the Sex Pistols came from the U.K., and they were the ones who really started the whole razor blades-on-the-chest thing. The Americans are just imitators of this British "art form." Where did you say you were from again? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 29 16:26:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA15499 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 May 1997 16:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ian.broken.net (R-ddo.resnet.ucsb.edu [128.111.120.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15488; Thu, 29 May 1997 16:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ian@localhost) by ian.broken.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA12054; Thu, 29 May 1997 16:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29870.864945402@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Struble To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin Makefile Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Bill Paul , Gary Palmer Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 29-May-97 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Someone having comments carved onto his forhead with a rusty railroad >> spike is ART?!?! As for the razor blades on the chest *shudder* >> >> I gotta hand it to ya ... Americans have a weird sense of ``art'' :) >The Americans are just imitators of this British "art form." Wait a second. Are we taling about Art, art, or A-R-T? Or maybe just some guy named Art... Yes Americans, like everyone else, have a wierd sense of art. And yes the Sex Pistols were from the UK. Ian ---- Hindsight is an exact science. ---- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 29 20:43:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA26172 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 29 May 1997 20:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26166 for ; Thu, 29 May 1997 20:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freyes.dh.i-2000.com (slip166-72-219-147.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.147]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA01738 for ; Thu, 29 May 1997 23:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199705300343.XAA01738@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Thu, 29 May 97 23:17:59 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.91 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: IDE or Ultra SCSI Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have been agonizing for a few days trying to decide whether to get IDE or Ultra SCSI. Basically the situation is: I DO NOT like dealing with hardware and the company I am planning to order only offers Ultra SCSI or Ultra Wide (adaptec 2940U or 2940UW). If I get the CD rom and the HD on the two separate channels of the IDE controller will it still be much slower than Ultra SCSI? I have an understaing of the differences between IDE and SCSI (partly from magazines and from http://sysdoc.pair.com), but that doesn't really tell me much in terms of wether I will actually see a noticeable difference. The computer is going to be: 64MB 10ns SDRAM DIMMs Cyrix P200+ The difference in price betwen IDE and Ultra is about $700. Is it worth it? From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 00:51:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA05186 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 00:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA05179 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 00:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA00462; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:51:19 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07479; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:29:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970530092929.CP11088@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:29:29 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSd Chat list) Cc: francisco@natserv.com (Francisco Reyes) Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI References: <199705300343.XAA01738@federation.addy.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199705300343.XAA01738@federation.addy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on May 29, 1997 23:17:59 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Francisco Reyes wrote: > I have been agonizing for a few days trying to decide whether to get > IDE or Ultra SCSI. For me, the question would be quite simple to answer. :-) But i don't have an IDE drive at all, but two SCSI buses in each of my machines at work and home. :) IDE is in theory as fast as SCSI. However, we don't support busmaster DMA for IDE yet, and thus you eat up valuable CPU cycles with an IDE drive, that could be spent better in serving processes on a multiprocessing system. Also, i basically love the flexibility with SCSI. Two devices vs. seven devices per bus makes a difference for me. I am currently using or have been using the following classes of devices: fixed disk, optical disk, CD-ROM, CD-ROM changer, CD-R, scanner, various tape drives. IDE will have to go a very long way still until they can provide this variety (and even longer until they'll have it hot- pluggable ;-). SCSI is a standard, while the ATA specs is something that dares to call itself a standard, but is in fact a pile of crap not worth the 100+ pages of paper you use to print it on. Have a look there if you don't believe me. I'm always impressed again that it works a little bit at all, hats off to Søren for the basically working ATAPI CD-ROM driver. After reading this so-called standard, the only impression you get is that all this _cannot_ work. At least, not reliably. (You get this at least, if you've read SCSI before.) ``Ultra'' is more of a marketing gag than real value, it just means ``use double the clock rate, and allow for only half the cable length''. Fortunately, you can turn it off. With only one ore two disks, you don't need the peak transfer rate anyway, and the slow peripherals don't account much to the bus saturation. > The difference in price betwen IDE and Ultra is about $700. Is it worth > it? Why is it so much? You don't necessarily need the expensive Adaptecs. I'm using two AHA-2940 at work, but two NCR 53c810 at home. Both systems work fine, and i don't see a burning need to spend so much more money into the Adaptecs. (I also used to run mixed NCR/Adaptec at home, and have only bought a second NCR since i needed to free up the Adaptec i've borrowed from my employer. The mix system worked well, too.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 02:19:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA07709 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 02:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.blaze.net.au (server.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA07704 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 02:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (papillon.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.74]) by server.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19559 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 19:19:31 +1000 (EST) From: grog@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id KAA01561 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 30 May 1997 10:51:30 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199705300121.KAA01561@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Anecdote: Connecting to the Internet in Australia To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:50:12 +0930 (CST) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ANNOUNCEMENT (remember, you read it here first): I have just returned to Australia after spending nearly 25 years in Germany. Read the headers for more details. As a result, and because DE-NIC charges an arm and a leg for a .de domain, I have changed my domain name from lemis.de to lemis.com. lemis.de will still work for a while, but it costs me $15 per month, so it won't be long. One of my yet-unresolved problems is getting my net connection transferred to Australia. Sure, there are plenty of ISPs, but the prices differ wildly. A couple of things that I have found: 1. ISDN, which I used exclusively in Germany, is available. It's cheaper than in Germany, but then, just about anywhere is cheaper than in Germany. For example, a 60 minute local ISDN call costs $US 1.43 in Australia and $US 2.82 in Germany. Nevertheless, it's not financially viable: a 60 minute analogue call costs $US 0.19. So does a one-month or one-year call, assuming Telstra can keep it up that long: local analogue calls are a fixed price regardless of duration. By contrast, a 60 minute local analogue call costs $US 2.82 in Germany, the same price as ISDN. So I'm going to have to go for one or more analogue lines. 2. ISPs charge about the same in Australia as they do in the US (about $AUS 20 per month for a certain number of hours). While browsing on the web, however, I discovered that the national Telco, Telstra, also offers a real network service, obviously intended for companies and ISPs, complete with net routing (see http://www.telstra.net/pricenew.html). The prices are really good: no monthly fee, just a setup fee (about $AUS 500, if I recall) and a flat charge of $AUS 0.19 (about $US 0.14) per megabyte. The maximum price per month is $AUS 300 if you elect to pay that way. Compared to the prices I pay in Germany (about DM 8/$AUS 6 per megabyte, and DM 50/$AUS 38 per month), it's unbelievable, and even the $500 setup fee doesn't hurt by comparison. Well, I don't like telcos any more than the next person, but this is a really good price. So I went to the local Telstra shop to ask for an application form. They told me that there was no such thing: they'd sell me Internet software for $20, and I could just sign up under "Windows" via an 800 number. I told them about the stuff I had read on the web, and they reluctantly called somebody who faxed them the form, which I filled out and they, with obvious bad grace, faxed back again. That was the 5th May. Until today, I had heard no more, so I called up to see what was going on. They claimed to have sent me email confirming receipt of the application, which I just don't believe. Anyway, they won't connect until the end of the last month--to quote a Telstra person, their internal organization leaves something to be desired. Grrr. She also gave me one of the most obnoxious mail IDs I've heard, something like . When I suggested that their mail gurus should put in a masquerade name in their sendmail.cf to get rid of unpronouncablehostname (I didn't quite phrase it that way :-), she told me that the problem was that they were running Microsoft mail, and it wouldn't work. She also asked me not to quote her, so obviously they're at least ashamed of it. 3. In the meantime, I went looking for access to bridge the time until I get service. I didn't want to go and ask any local ISP, who would probably be unhappy enough about Telstra's pricing anyway, so I tried Telstra's end-user connect scheme. The guy on the phone told me I could dial an 800 number and sign up directly using a "menu". Well, the "menu" worried me (more "Windows"?), but I tried it. What happened had me laughing for about five minutes: > atd1800656450 > > CONNECT > > (many empty lines omitted) > ** Telstra LaunchPad - Your gateway to Cyberspace... ** > > > Login: signup > Password: (for future reference, it's also "signup") > > And that's all. That's a menu? Oh well, been there before. Let's try help: > >help > ? Display help information > help " " " > quit Closes terminal server session > hangup " " " " > test test [ ] [ ] > local Go to local mode > remote remote > set Set various items. Type 'set ?' for help > show Show various tables. Type 'show ?' for help > iproute Manage IP routes. Type 'iproute ?' for help > slip SLIP command > cslip Compressed SLIP command > ppp PPP command > menu Host menu interface > telnet telnet [ -a| -b ] [ ] > tcp tcp > ping ping > rlogin rlogin [ -l user -ec ] OK, they said something about a menu... > >menu > Menu mode not enabled Hmmm. What else could it be? > >local > Connecting to 127.0.0.1 ... > Escape character is '^]' > Connected > > > (SIGNUP.tmns.net.au) Enter password: > > Incorrect password. The password I entered was the one they gave me, "signup". Tried it several times. Oh well. I just wanted to get through to hub, anyway... > >telnet hub.freebsd.org > Connecting to hub.freebsd.org (204.216.27.18) ... > Escape character is disabled, binary mode selected > Connected > > FreeBSD (hub.freebsd.org) (ttyp4) Yup. No problems. If this thing also gave me ftp, I wouldn't even need to sign up for Telstra. What an enormous back door (and what a tiny front door). Unfortunately, I *do* need ftp, so I called up Telstra and asked them what was happening. It seems that their menu server is down (probably runs on Microslop). Should be up later today. But it's probably worth checking whether the back door remains when the server is running. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 05:12:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA13008 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 05:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA13003 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 05:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brother.ludd.luth.se.ludd (pantzer@brother.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.78]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA26089 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 14:12:05 +0200 Received: from localhost by brother.ludd.luth.se.ludd (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21853; Fri, 30 May 97 14:12:03 +0200 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:12:03 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mattias Pantzare To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anecdote: Connecting to the Internet in Australia In-Reply-To: <199705300121.KAA01561@papillon.lemis.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > FreeBSD (hub.freebsd.org) (ttyp4) > > Yup. No problems. If this thing also gave me ftp, I wouldn't even > need to sign up for Telstra. What an enormous back door (and what a > tiny front door). No problem, start ppp on the remote computer... From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 07:31:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18049 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 07:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18044 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 07:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21165 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 31 May 1997 00:31:52 +1000 Received: from localhost.devetir.qld.gov.au by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.7.5/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with SMTP id WAA15894 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 22:07:35 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199705301207.WAA15894@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI References: <199705300343.XAA01738@federation.addy.com> <19970530092929.CP11088@uriah.heep.sax.de> In-Reply-To: <19970530092929.CP11088@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Fri, 30 May 1997 07:29:29 +0000" Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:07:35 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Friday, 30th May 1997, J Wunsch wrote: >As Francisco Reyes wrote: > >> I have been agonizing for a few days trying to decide whether to get >> IDE or Ultra SCSI. > >IDE is in theory as fast as SCSI. However, we don't support busmaster >DMA for IDE yet, and thus you eat up valuable CPU cycles with an IDE >drive, that could be spent better in serving processes on a >multiprocessing system. Is IDE (in theory) really as good? I understood that only one outstanding command was possible with IDE, meaning only one disk could be active at a time, versus many simultaneous commands with SCSI. Am I out of date? >``Ultra'' is more of a marketing gag than real value, it just means >``use double the clock rate, and allow for only half the cable >length''. On the other hand, Ultra Wide is where it's all going. Or so it looks to me. At least until that FireWire stuff is cheap. >> The difference in price betwen IDE and Ultra is about $700. Is it worth >> it? > >Why is it so much? I ask this often, hoping to have someone tell me it is not so. It is all to do with volume and margins for middle men. Fewer SCSI disks sold == higher prices. For example, I could go to a nearby computer shop and buy a 6Gb IDE disk for AU$600, or a 4Gb SCSI3 disk for AU$1100. That's nearly 3 times the cost per byte. I have no reason to believe that either is better quality than the other. What a downer. Or I could buy an 8x SCSI CD-ROM for twice the price of the same model drive with IDE interface. Sigh. So I have to keep telling myself what an investment in brain cells I have with SCSI, how it always works (well it does for me), and how every IDE system that I've tried to put 2 disks in, or take one drive out of, has been such a pain that I've given up. Then I calculate my hourly rate into the equation... Even so, I'm not sure if I'll give in this time round and turn to the dark side. The lure of cheap equipment! :-/ Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 08:38:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21168 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 08:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21163 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 08:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slip129-37-112-123.pa.us.ibm.net (slip129-37-112-123.pa.us.ibm.net [129.37.112.123]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA02031; Fri, 30 May 1997 11:38:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199705301538.LAA02031@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , "Stephen McKay" Date: Fri, 30 May 97 11:45:53 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.9 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 30 May 1997 22:07:35 +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: >On Friday, 30th May 1997, J Wunsch wrote: >Is IDE (in theory) really as good? I understood that only one outstanding >command was possible with IDE, meaning only one disk could be active at >a time, versus many simultaneous commands with SCSI. Am I out of date? >From my understanding IDE can do one command "per channel". So if you have a CDrom and a HD if they are on different channels each can process one command. Check http://sysdoc.pair.com (great hardware technical info). > >So I have to keep telling myself what an investment in brain cells I have >with SCSI, how it always works (well it does for me), and how every IDE >system that I've tried to put 2 disks in, or take one drive out of, has >been such a pain that I've given up. Then I calculate my hourly rate into >the equation... I decided to stay with SCSI, but I am talking to the vendor to see if they can get me plain SCSI (Adaptec 2940 instead of 2940U) and just plain old SCSI-2 drives. If that vendor can't give me a competitive price then I will have to do what I hoped I wouldn't have to do; get the HD subsystem from one vendor, the rest of the system from another and get my hands dirty installing the dam thing (I hate dealing with hardware). From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 08:40:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21339 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 08:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21332 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 08:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA12572; Fri, 30 May 1997 08:40:58 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen McKay cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 30 May 1997 22:07:35 +1000." <199705301207.WAA15894@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:40:58 -0700 Message-ID: <12568.865006858@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So I have to keep telling myself what an investment in brain cells I have > with SCSI, how it always works (well it does for me), and how every IDE > system that I've tried to put 2 disks in, or take one drive out of, has > been such a pain that I've given up. Then I calculate my hourly rate into > the equation... You need to also calculate in the "food chain" effect if you have more than one system. I have a number of them, and it's a very nice feeling indeed to kick out a 2Gb drive from system A on some upgrade and think "Hmmm, I can put this into B, C or D.. Which needs it more?" I don't have to sweat master/slave issues, I don't have to think "Oh, this thing has already got 2 drives - guess I'll add another IDE controller or punt" and as long as I can actually fit the drive some in the case or mount it externally, I can make it work and I can make my decision based solely on which system can best benefit from the storage, not how many drives it has in it already. IDE is so limited by comparison that, well, there's just no comparison. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 09:51:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA24965 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lightning.tbe.net (qmailr@lightning.tbe.net [208.208.122.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA24960 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 09:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19284 invoked by uid 1010); 30 May 1997 16:47:23 -0000 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:47:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gary D. Margiotta" To: Stephen McKay cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI In-Reply-To: <199705301207.WAA15894@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> I have been agonizing for a few days trying to decide whether to get > >> IDE or Ultra SCSI. > > >> The difference in price betwen IDE and Ultra is about $700. Is it worth > >> it? > > > >Why is it so much? > > I ask this often, hoping to have someone tell me it is not so. It is all to > do with volume and margins for middle men. Fewer SCSI disks sold == higher > prices. > > For example, I could go to a nearby computer shop and buy a 6Gb IDE disk > for AU$600, or a 4Gb SCSI3 disk for AU$1100. That's nearly 3 times the > cost per byte. I have no reason to believe that either is better quality > than the other. What a downer. > > Or I could buy an 8x SCSI CD-ROM for twice the price of the same model > drive with IDE interface. Sigh. > > So I have to keep telling myself what an investment in brain cells I have > with SCSI, how it always works (well it does for me), and how every IDE > system that I've tried to put 2 disks in, or take one drive out of, has > been such a pain that I've given up. Then I calculate my hourly rate into > the equation... SCSI is definately the way to go, even though there is a considerable price difference. IDE is nice and cheap, but if you look around enough, you can find SCSI peripherals that aren't too bad pricewise. When you consider the advantages of SCSI over IDE, you begin to see that in this case, the end does justify the means. For example, I have three Hard drives, one CD-ROM, and one CD-R in my system. Try putting that many things on an IDE bus and see how easy it is to get all to work well with each other without pulling your hair out. As far as I know, SCSI HDD are multitasking, IDE HDD aren't, which means that the IDE will have to finish the current task before moving onto another, while the SCSI drive can have several task running at the same time. To visualize this better, think of the way Winblows multitasks, (IDE), and FreeBSD (or other more advanced OS's) multitasks (SCSI). Take data transfer also into consideration. SCSI devices have a better sustained transfer rate, and a much higher burst rate. A standard IDE with a PIO mode of 4 can transfer at 16.6 Mb/s I believe. Ultra SCSI can do 20 Mb/s, Wide SCSI (SCSI-3) can do 40 Mb/s, burstable to 133 Mb/s (though that is card (and slot) dependant, I am using my Adaptec 2940UW-PCI stats). Plus, if you are using FreeBSD, there is no support for Enhanced IDE yet, so you are not getting the benefits of that. I have SCSI drives that I have beat the hell out of, and they have never given me any problems, and some are quite a few years old. Try that with an IDE, and you are lucky to get 3 years out of them before they start getting iffy and failing. IDE drives are cheap because that is how they are made. They are meant to be 'throw-aways'. They are cheap enough that they usually give 1 or two years good service then they die, and you go buy another one. SCSI drives are usually higher quality (and I know I will probably get a few arguments from that), and they are meant to take a good amount of use/abuse. As was said before, IDE still has a long way to go before they even come close to the reliability and speed of SCSI. They are good because of their low price, but you get what you pay for. Go with SCSI. You will have less headaches, and it is quite easier and more cost-efficient in the long run. > side. The lure of cheap equipment! :-/ Cheap equipment has a strong pull to everyone, because most of us are on somewhat of a budget. Don't be fooled by it though...if you do something, do it right the first time, or it will come back to haunt you at one time or another, and it will end up costing you more in the end anyway. Just my $.02 -Gary Margiotta TBE Internet Services http://www.tbe.net From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 12:51:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03910 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 12:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03905 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 12:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id PAA06520; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:51:27 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from athena (ts001d18.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.30]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.5) id PAA24969; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <338F2F83.55301D85@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:50:27 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b5 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199705300343.XAA01738@federation.addy.com> <19970530092929.CP11088@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199705301207.WAA15894@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephen McKay wrote: > > On Friday, 30th May 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > > >As Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > >> I have been agonizing for a few days trying to decide whether to get > >> IDE or Ultra SCSI. > > > >IDE is in theory as fast as SCSI. However, we don't support busmaster > >DMA for IDE yet, and thus you eat up valuable CPU cycles with an IDE > >drive, that could be spent better in serving processes on a > >multiprocessing system. > > Is IDE (in theory) really as good? I understood that only one outstanding > command was possible with IDE, meaning only one disk could be active at > a time, versus many simultaneous commands with SCSI. Am I out of date? SCSI can still only access two devices at any given time, one initiator and one target. SCSI II allows for "disconnect" which means a drive can aquire a queue of commands, remove itself from the bus, and reattatch when finished processing those commands, but it obviously is no help for read/write operations. :-) It does speed things up, but not quite to the extent I believe you are thinking of. > > >``Ultra'' is more of a marketing gag than real value, it just means > >``use double the clock rate, and allow for only half the cable > >length''. > > On the other hand, Ultra Wide is where it's all going. Or so it looks to me. > At least until that FireWire stuff is cheap. > > >> The difference in price betwen IDE and Ultra is about $700. Is it worth > >> it? > > > >Why is it so much? > > I ask this often, hoping to have someone tell me it is not so. It is all to > do with volume and margins for middle men. Fewer SCSI disks sold == higher > prices. > > For example, I could go to a nearby computer shop and buy a 6Gb IDE disk > for AU$600, or a 4Gb SCSI3 disk for AU$1100. That's nearly 3 times the > cost per byte. I have no reason to believe that either is better quality > than the other. What a downer. Part of the cost is the controller board. A SCSI drive of Fast Ultra Utlra Wide or SCSI III is faster than an IDE drive, and also has the ability to queue commands, spin itself up and down, does its own low-level formatting and has to be able to become "initiator" for bus activity on demand, as well as doing quite a bit more self-diagnostic and error reporting through self-test and sense data. Outside of the sheer fact that the hardware itself is usually a bit better, the card is what drives the price. That and totaly speed. A SCSI-III drive is ~twice the speed of the new 33mb EIDE drives, and SCSI III has been around for a while. > > Or I could buy an 8x SCSI CD-ROM for twice the price of the same model > drive with IDE interface. Sigh. A CD-ROM was always so slow that there would be little improvement and I had these IDE busses "rusting" on my board, so I have always gone ATAPI for CD-ROM, but with 16x, I'm not so sure about that. I would say for 8x, don't bother with SCSI if you already have the bus, and you get the added bonus of accessing IDE and SCSI in parallel. i.e: read from the CD and write to the drive simultaneously. > > So I have to keep telling myself what an investment in brain cells I have > with SCSI, how it always works (well it does for me), and how every IDE > system that I've tried to put 2 disks in, or take one drive out of, has > been such a pain that I've given up. Then I calculate my hourly rate into > the equation... > > Even so, I'm not sure if I'll give in this time round and turn to the dark > side. The lure of cheap equipment! :-/ > > Stephen. I have run three mixed IDE/SCSI machines, and used to work for FWB Software, who makes IDE and SCSI device drivers for Mac and Windows, and never have I seen a true benchmark that puts equivalent EIDE drives near enough to SCSI performance to warrant consideration, except for the newer 7200 RPM EIDE that have come out. Of course, I'm also the guy they used to play "guess the drive speed" with at work, because after 1/2 hr-45 minutes I could tell you which was the fastest/slowest drive on a system with differences of only a couple of ms, so I'm a tad biased. :-) JF From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 12:53:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04012 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 12:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04006 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 12:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id PAA11597; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:53:51 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from athena (ts001d18.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.30]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.5) id PAA25767; Fri, 30 May 1997 15:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <338F3019.B3C2ECF0@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:52:57 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b5 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Let us all also remember one thing: IDE was first used because it was the lowest bidder. ;-) JF From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 14:40:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA09926 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 14:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com ([206.224.65.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA09912 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 14:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA24952; Fri, 30 May 1997 16:38:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970530163812.44978@luke.pmr.com> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:38:12 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: Joshua Fielden Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI References: <199705300343.XAA01738@federation.addy.com> <19970530092929.CP11088@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199705301207.WAA15894@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> <338F2F83.55301D85@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <338F2F83.55301D85@concentric.net>; from Joshua Fielden on Fri, May 30, 1997 at 01:50:27PM -0600 Reply-To: bob@luke.pmr.com (Bob Willcox) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, May 30, 1997 at 01:50:27PM -0600, Joshua Fielden wrote: > > SCSI can still only access two devices at any given time, one initiator > and one target. SCSI II > allows for "disconnect" which means a drive can aquire a queue of > commands, remove itself from the bus, and reattatch when finished > processing those commands, but it obviously is no help for read/write > operations. :-) It does speed things up, but not quite to the extent I > believe you are thinking of. This is not exactly true. All modern drives (all drives that I have worked with -- I pretty much do SCSI device drivers for a living) will acquire the SCSI command (be it a read, write, inquiry, etc.) and then immetiately disconnect from the bus while they prepare to process it (even if not command tag queuing). For reads they won't reconnect to the SCSI bus till they have data ready to transfer (i.e., they have seeked to the proper spot on the disk and read the data into their cache). For writes they will reconnect, transfer the data to their cache then disconnect while the write is actually done (from the cache to the disk), reconnecting once again at command completion to transfer status. Given this, it is quite easy to get many drives "running" at once, with them all sharing the bus as necessary to transfer their data. As I understand IDE, the controller will remain busy from the time the command is initiated till it completes. This effectively prevents any overlap of commands on a single IDE controller. -- Bob Willcox Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made bob@luke.pmr.com President should on no account be allowed to do the job. Austin, TX -- Douglas Adams, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 16:54:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA16734 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 16:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nemeton.com.au (gw.nemeton.com.au [203.8.3.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16713 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 16:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from topaz.nemeton.com.au (topaz.nemeton.com.au [203.8.3.18]) by nemeton.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21724; Sat, 31 May 1997 09:53:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost.nemeton.com.au (localhost.nemeton.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by topaz.nemeton.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00230; Sat, 31 May 1997 09:55:18 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199705302355.JAA00230@topaz.nemeton.com.au> To: Don Yuniskis cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: uucp uid's In-reply-to: <199705301648.JAB07926@seagull.rtd.com> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:55:17 +1000 From: Giles Lean Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Moved to -chat] On Fri, 30 May 1997 09:48:43 -0700 (MST) Don Yuniskis wrote: > UUCP itself is a dinosaur. Yet, I see several places that use UUCP as > their sole connection to the electronic world. Kinda tough to force > a client/customer to do things *your* way when *he's* paying the > bills! :> Hey, there's lots of money in dinosaurs! Isn't there a movie or something? :-) UUCP has a little life in it yet, as it is easier to secure than dialup IP and is handy for the rare occasion when reliable spooling and data transfer is required over an intermittent connection. Giles From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 20:38:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27153 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 20:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27147 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 20:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA21379; Fri, 30 May 1997 20:53:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:53:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199705310253.UAA21379@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Intel Pentium II released Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.hardware In-Reply-To: <199705251747.KAA17807@kithrup.com> References: <199705231702.KAA29056@george.lbl.gov> <19970523142235.11747@ct.picker.com> <338726E2.6A9D29F4.kithrup.freebsd.hardware@persprog.com> <199705251747.KAA17807@kithrup.com> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan writes: > But this lets me get on a rant: I am sick of Intel right now. They have > been worrying me for quite a while, as they have a monopoly on the computer > market. (More than 85% of all processors in the world currently in use are > Intel processors. That constitutes a monopoly by most economists > definitions.) Well, maybe for "desktop" computers, but not the entire microprocessor market. Until recently, the largest-selling 32 bit architecture was still the M68K family, which is used by the millions in embedded applications of all sorts. I think the largest selling single processor is now the NEC VR4300, clipping along at about a million units per *month.* It is used in both the Nintendo 64 and the Sony Playstation if you wonder how it achieved those volumes. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 30 21:05:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02997 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexgen.hiwaay.net (tnt2-181.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02980 for ; Fri, 30 May 1997 21:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexgen (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nexgen.hiwaay.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA11012; Fri, 30 May 1997 20:53:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199705310153.UAA11012@nexgen.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Francisco Reyes" cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI In-reply-to: Message from "Francisco Reyes" of "Thu, 29 May 1997 23:17:59 EDT." <199705300343.XAA01738@federation.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:53:01 -0500 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Francisco Reyes writes: > [...] > > The computer is going to be: > 64MB 10ns SDRAM DIMMs > Cyrix P200+ > > The difference in price betwen IDE and Ultra is about $700. Is it worth > it? You didn't say what model EIDE drives they swap out for what model SCSI stuff they swap in. Recently I purchased an IBM DCAS-34330 4.1G Ultra (narrow) HD from my favorite Macintosh SCSI source, http://www.apstech.com/ for $599.95 (told 'em I had a PowerMac 8100/80, which I do, and that made them happy). It's "only" a 5400 RPM drive, but a cute little bugger at only 1" high. There is a question as to whether the warranty is 3 years or 5 years. They advertise 3, but I noticed a "certificate" proclaiming a 5 year warranty was included. This certificate isn't marked as to which product it belongs to. Throw in a Symbios PCI SCSI card for around $100 and you've got a pretty good SCSI system for only the $700 "additional" somebody wants to charge you. APS doesn't have the Symbios card but recently had a deal which included a Mac 2940UW for $199 with drive purchase. Is there a difference between Mac and PC 2940's? Maybe change out the EEPROM contents? They also have external Toshiba 12X CDROMs (SCSI of course) for $159. Anyhow, put the PowerMac 8100/80 sled (which came with the 4.1G drive) to good use with an older 510M Seagate ST3610N, and put that in the 8100/80. Put the 4.1G in an external box and hooked it to the Mac and ran it the past couple of weeks just to make sure it worked in the environment it was sold for. This afternoon it spent several hours on an SGI Indy R5000. All smiles. Had tried it earlier on the only available SCSI ID on an Indigo, where it didn't work so well. Not sure I can fault the new drive as it was only one of 4 external SCSI boxes on that bus. Every box was of different manufacture. Every cable was different too. But when it worked this afternoon on the Indy, "time dd if=/dev/zero bs=1024k count=1024 of=junkfile" completed in 2:16 for a 1G average write thruput of 7.8M/minute. For kicks I tried the same thing on a Sun Ultra Enterprise 1 that has wide 4.3G Seagate Barracudas (not the new 1" high). Only got 6.1M/minute. Basically I'm just continuing on Jordan's thread as to how portable SCSI devices are. Reading the other mail produced few references to using tape drives on SCSI. That's another fun thing to do. Again, portable from Mac, SGI, Sun, and FreeBSD. Next week my 4.1G drive goes to its next home, PeeCee, my AMD 5x86/133-P75 FreeBSD system, hopefully to stay for the next several years. Expect to retire a Conner IDE 487M drive, and free up another ST3610N for the PowerMac. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 31 02:13:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA14593 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA14588 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.176.130.43] (serialA2a.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.43]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09169; Sat, 31 May 1997 10:11:48 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: robmel@mailhost.innotts.co.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199705302355.JAA00230@topaz.nemeton.com.au> References: <199705301648.JAB07926@seagull.rtd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:55:29 +0100 To: Giles Lean , Don Yuniskis From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: uucp uid's Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 31 May 1997 09:55:17 +1000 Giles Lean wrote: >On Fri, 30 May 1997 09:48:43 -0700 (MST) Don Yuniskis wrote: > >> UUCP itself is a dinosaur. Yet, I see several places that use UUCP as >> their sole connection to the electronic world. Kinda tough to force >> a client/customer to do things *your* way when *he's* paying the >> bills! :> > >Hey, there's lots of money in dinosaurs! Isn't there a movie or >something? :-) Hey! UUCP is an excellent way to handle email if you don't have a permanent link. Far more efficient than monging ppp to dial up routinely then paying for dead time while it's timing out. Since uucp is specifically a batch-shifting protocol the line's only up for as long as needed to do the business. It's also reliable, secure & easy to configure (now that sendmail handles domainised uucp rewriting properly). Our organisation exchanges around 2-300 mail messages daily on a 2-hourly poll during working hours. Phone connect time amounts to around 2.5mins per day. Our provider MXs all mail for our nadt.org.uk domain to their uucp host so we can give every local user (currently around 110) a mailbox without bothering them. I also have a number of small business personal clients who use uucp for their organisation with great success. They can use the same modem for dial-on-demand ppp when they want to browse, ftp etc.. ISP's reselling to dialup commercial clients should consider uucp a useful part of a total package rather than a dinosaur. Horses for courses. Robin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Melville, Addiction Information Services Nottingham Alcohol & Drug Team Tel: +44 (0)115 952 9478 Fax: +44 (0)115 952 9421 work: robmel@nadt.org.uk home: robmel@innotts.co.uk Pages: http://www.innotts.co.uk/~robmel (home page) http://www.innotts.co.uk/nadt (substance misuse pages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 31 02:20:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA14968 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA14961 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA19368 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 31 May 1997 11:20:50 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA11099; Sat, 31 May 1997 10:51:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970531105119.HZ10573@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:51:19 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI References: <199705300343.XAA01738@federation.addy.com> <19970530092929.CP11088@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199705301207.WAA15894@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199705301207.WAA15894@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au>; from Stephen McKay on May 30, 1997 22:07:35 +1000 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Stephen McKay wrote: > >IDE is in theory as fast as SCSI. > Is IDE (in theory) really as good? I understood that only one outstanding > command was possible with IDE, meaning only one disk could be active at > a time, versus many simultaneous commands with SCSI. Am I out of date? I rather meant the plain transfer rates. The fastest IDE modi aren't slow, and on the PCI bus, even PIO isn't such a slow dog as it used to be with ISA, where every IO cycle has been inflated to 1.25 µs. Of course, you're right regarding bus disconnection (and you would be even more right regarding tagged command queuing, but you didn't mention it :). > On the other hand, Ultra Wide is where it's all going. Or so it > looks to me. But nobody tells you you _must_ turn on this 20 MHz stuff. You can still run it at 10, and totally ignore the Marketing-Ultra. Wide can give you better throughput if you need it (without the cable length limitation problems). Curious, are there 32-bit wide devices available now? > For example, I could go to a nearby computer shop and buy a 6Gb IDE disk > for AU$600, or a 4Gb SCSI3 disk for AU$1100. I've recently read a marketing fax, announcing Seagate products... They really build a 23 GB drive these days. *shudder* (I think it has been announced for < DEM 5000, reseller price, excluding tax. 1 USD ~ 1.7 DEM these days.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 31 02:21:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA14985 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA14967 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA19369 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 31 May 1997 11:20:54 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA11119; Sat, 31 May 1997 10:57:07 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970531105706.ZK10571@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:57:06 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI References: <199705301207.WAA15894@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> <12568.865006858@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <12568.865006858@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on May 30, 1997 08:40:58 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > IDE is so limited by comparison that, well, there's just no > comparison. ;-) My most favorite gripe about IDE is the so-called ATA standard. It's the first ``may be'' standard i've seen so far. In Table 9, the `Identify device' information is described. The explanation for word 53, bit 0 is: 1 = the field reported in words 54-58 are valid 0 = the field reported in words 54-58 may be valid Also, you can find the word `obsolete' all over the place there. I'm really surprised our wcd driver works with so many ATAPI drives now. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 31 02:21:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA15001 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA14983 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA19370 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 31 May 1997 11:20:59 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA11134; Sat, 31 May 1997 11:02:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970531110242.NL08194@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:02:42 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI References: <199705301207.WAA15894@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Gary D. Margiotta on May 30, 1997 12:47:23 -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Gary D. Margiotta wrote: > Plus, if you are using FreeBSD, there is no support > for Enhanced IDE yet, so you are not getting the benefits of that. That's not fully correct. FreeBSD doesn't care about the various transfer modi, and it doesn't support DMA modi. However, it doesn't modify the transfer behaviour either, so if you initialize your drive to a fast PIO mode by the BIOS, FreeBSD will use it. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 31 02:21:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA15015 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA14999 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 02:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA19371; Sat, 31 May 1997 11:21:02 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA11155; Sat, 31 May 1997 11:13:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970531111349.YK60956@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:13:49 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) Cc: francisco@natserv.com (Francisco Reyes) Subject: Re: IDE or Ultra SCSI References: <199705301538.LAA02031@federation.addy.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199705301538.LAA02031@federation.addy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on May 31, 1997 00:50:37 +0000 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Francisco Reyes wrote: >From my understanding IDE can do one command "per channel". `Channel' is a confusing term. Spell it as `controller', and you have something you can compare with other architectures in our (Unix) world. Still, you are limited to one outstanding command per controller with IDE, while you can have many outstanding commands per controller with SCSI. And while it is common that you are limited to two controllers with IDE, there's no obvious limit for the number of SCSI controllers you could plug in, other than the number of slots available. See wcarchive. Remember, FreeBSD has been able to talk to two ST-506 controllers long before this was common practice in the PC world. I assume one machine running at my previous employer was one of the very first (if not the first one at all) running 386BSD with two wdc controllers (one IDE, and one WD1007V ESDI). I had to patch the wdc code for this, it must have been late 1993. The machine is still running these days (with FreeBSD 1.1.5.1), although the ESDI drive has been retired. > I decided to stay with SCSI, but I am talking to the vendor to see if > they can get me plain SCSI (Adaptec 2940 instead of 2940U) and just > plain old SCSI-2 drives. Nay. Labelling drives as SCSI-3 (is this really standardized already?) and controllers as Ultra is the marketing hype you gotta live with. The older non-Ultra controllers and drives that are labelled just SCSI-2 are no longer being built. The 20 MHz `Ultra' feature is turned off by default. Unless you've really got more disks to talk simultaneously than 10 MB/s, don't turn it on. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 31 20:44:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03876 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 20:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from envy.ugcs.caltech.edu (root@envy.ugcs.caltech.edu [131.215.128.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03871 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 20:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydro.ugcs.caltech.edu (hydro.ugcs.caltech.edu [131.215.134.39]) by envy.ugcs.caltech.edu with ESMTP (8.8.5/UGCS:4.44) id UAA27051 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 20:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706010344.UAA27051@envy.ugcs.caltech.edu> From: jmr@ugcs.caltech.edu To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: learn program Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:44:45 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A while ago there was some discussion about a learn program on one of the mailing lists. Well, I found this: http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/bwk/learn.tar.gz on Kernighan's web page. My apologies if someone has already said this. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 31 21:26:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05085 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05080 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA11621; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:56:32 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706010426.NAA11621@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) In-Reply-To: <1790.865112308@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "May 31, 97 01:58:28 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:56:32 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > ahhh! :) everyone says this - but exit() never returns, so main > > never returns anything, so IMHO, main should always be type void. > > Uh.. I think you're fundamentally unclear on the concept of main() if > you think exit() is the only way out. :-) ... not to mention missing the fact that Joerg was complaining about passing argc as u_char. > In fact, weren't you also the guy who was unlear on the precedence of > = vs == ? If so, I think you _really_ need to go by a C book and > do some brushing up. ;) > > I recommend Harbison & Steele. I wonder if there would be any chance of shipping K&R 2ed in soft form with the system? It's my favoured reference 8) > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 31 21:49:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05713 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05708 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA10789; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:49:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Borland 16bit bcc vs cc/gcc (float) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:56:32 +0930." <199706010426.NAA11621@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:49:51 -0700 Message-ID: <10785.865140591@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I wonder if there would be any chance of shipping K&R 2ed in soft form > with the system? It's my favoured reference 8) As much as I like the "old testament", I have to say that the "new testament" (H&S) is simply a better book. More in-depth examples, a lighter style, broader coverage. Erm. Just better. :-) Jordan