From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 01:19:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA10869 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA10862 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01309; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:18:38 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199707130818.SAA01309@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:33:33 -0400." <199707130633.CAA20588@psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:18:37 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I wish everything could work by anarchy. And so do I. Actually, a "free market" is the epitome of an 'anarchy', or at least, an organised one. :-) > But I think money will always > be dominant. I don't think we can get free food the way we have > free software, because software is inherently easy to copy, and > restirctions that make software non-free are artificial. By > contrast, food production has always been time-consuming. Ouch. And developing software is not? Time for a reality check. There's probably not much difference in the production rates either way. The "artificial" restrictions are restrictions in distribution (which is easy with software), but there are very real costs and overheads involved in production of software per se. It isn't magic - it isn't all done with mirrors. Apologies if I'm coming across too strongly here, but the issue passes a little too close to home. There is, I agree, a particular aura about software that the end user tends to disregard completely the issues involved about what's going on under the hood, and therefore somehow mentally devalue it. Nor should they have to know what's going on inside there, except - which is relevent in this thread - sometimes they run a system where they might be required to know a bit more. Like FreeBSD. But the tendancy is invariably to consider software "cheap" and the hardware the only serious concern. But this isn't the case. When you consider the time spent by various people - professionals and hobbyists alike - on code for {Free,Open,Net}BSD, and appreciate the time they've spent on it and know that I'm getting it at no direct cost to myself, then you can truely appeciate what the product is. Regards, David -- David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 02:21:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12506 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA12501 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA05663 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:21:37 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16020; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:10:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970713111038.QH06129@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:10:38 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) References: <199707130633.CAA20588@psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> <199707130818.SAA01309@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199707130818.SAA01309@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>; from David Nugent on Jul 13, 1997 18:18:37 +1000 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As David Nugent wrote: > But the tendancy is invariably to consider software "cheap" and the > hardware the only serious concern. But this isn't the case. Of course, it isn't. But unlike almost anything else on this planet that required an equal amount of work to be produced, the efforts that went into software can be replicated without much costs. This is what it makes easy to `share' software, for mutual benefit. Like perhaps most of the other people here, i don't care very much whether this `sharing' is done in an unequal way, i. e. there are a number of people who only benefit and don't contribute. Most of the developers here do it for fun, and/or for their own income if they found a niche where the latter can go along with sharing software. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 09:09:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25316 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA25304 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA25104; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:55:33 -0400 Message-ID: <33C918DC.313C@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:05:16 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel N. Weber II" CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) References: <199707130633.CAA20588@psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II wrote: > ... > I'm not sure I consider all the repetitive OS development productive, > but I'd certainly rather see the same SCSI driver written seprately > by the BSD and GPL communities rather than have the government mandating > that everyone use VMS and nothing else. > That's just one of the reasons to use FreeBSD and not Linux. Some things (like the kernel) are better with a Berkeley-like license, and some things (some apps.) are better with GPL. In the free world, if you spend years developing your high quality tool, and lots of persons will benefit from it, it's only fair that you receive a part of that benefit. The existance of a GNU license only forces a good quality in the final products: if you find a free utility that does all you need you will not buy the commercial version. When someone buys a M$ OS, he is buying the usability which started this thread. In this sense SCO and the other UNIX resellers seem to have accepted they can't beat win-95, their competidor is NT. In this sense I think it is dishonest to say to the end user that FreeBSD will replace his win-95 box (although it did for some of us) as it is dishonest to say that win-NT is more usable than all unices (although it's true for some). Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 09:23:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26041 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26030 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id WAA10280; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 22:19:23 -0400 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 22:19:23 -0400 Message-Id: <199707130219.WAA10280@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au CC: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199707130818.SAA01309@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> (message from David Nugent on Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:18:37 +1000) Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I wish everything could work by anarchy. > And so do I. Actually, a "free market" is the epitome of an 'anarchy', > or at least, an organised one. :-) Not the epitome. A working example, perhaps. >> But I think money will always >> be dominant. I don't think we can get free food the way we have >> free software, because software is inherently easy to copy, and >> restirctions that make software non-free are artificial. By >> contrast, food production has always been time-consuming. > Ouch. And developing software is not? Time for a reality check. There's a difference here. 'copying software' relates to 'food production' roughly as 'developing software' relates to 'discovering that milk tastes good'. > There's probably not much difference in the production rates either > way. The "artificial" restrictions are restrictions in distribution > (which is easy with software), but there are very real costs and > overheads involved in production of software per se. It isn't magic > - it isn't all done with mirrors. The development of software does cost. But once written, everybody can benefit at a very low cost. Happy hacking, joelh -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 09:46:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27486 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [207.170.114.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27476 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA26818; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:45:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970713114553.01088@pmr.com> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:45:53 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Cc: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <199707130818.SAA01309@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> <199707130219.WAA10280@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199707130219.WAA10280@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu>; from Joel Ray Holveck on Sat, Jul 12, 1997 at 10:19:23PM -0400 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Jul 12, 1997 at 10:19:23PM -0400, Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > >> I wish everything could work by anarchy. > > And so do I. Actually, a "free market" is the epitome of an 'anarchy', > > or at least, an organised one. :-) > > Not the epitome. A working example, perhaps. > > >> But I think money will always > >> be dominant. I don't think we can get free food the way we have > >> free software, because software is inherently easy to copy, and > >> restirctions that make software non-free are artificial. By > >> contrast, food production has always been time-consuming. > > Ouch. And developing software is not? Time for a reality check. > > There's a difference here. 'copying software' relates to 'food > production' roughly as 'developing software' relates to 'discovering > that milk tastes good'. > > > There's probably not much difference in the production rates either > > way. The "artificial" restrictions are restrictions in distribution > > (which is easy with software), but there are very real costs and > > overheads involved in production of software per se. It isn't magic > > - it isn't all done with mirrors. > > The development of software does cost. But once written, everybody > can benefit at a very low cost. Hmm, this ignores the cost of support/service. Depending upon the level of support offered this can be an on-going expense that gets very expensive. Free software relies upon (mostly) free community support. Commercial software usually (in my experience) cannot. Vendor's generally either bundle it in the price of the software or charge separately for it. During my tenure at IBM working on AIX, we wrestled with this problem constantly. One of the principle factors that drove the development of the 4.1 release of AIX was that the 3.2.5 release was bundled with free support, and that the cost of that support was sky-rocketing (and becoming unaffordable). Since IBM's business practices folks would not let us change the terms and conditions of a point release of the OS (so that support could be separately charged for) we had to come out with a whole new release to do so. -- Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 10:53:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00897 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dumbwinter (mod3.logic.it [195.120.151.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00889 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dumbwinter (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wnSRV-00004rC; Sun, 13 Jul 97 19:28 MET DST Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:28:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: what magazines do you read? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm just wondering what computer-related magazines you read/suggest. I'm used to read Byte, but I'm becoming more and more disappointed with it. Byte was different from other magazines because it presumed two things: 1. readers can at least distinguish a computer from a toaster. 2. windows isn't the only OS in the universe. But now if you read it you can infer that Internet is the unique best idea in the history of mankind, and surely Internet was invented by Bill Gates, who in his youth invented the wheel! ;-) Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. "The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things". From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 10:53:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00920 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dumbwinter (mod3.logic.it [195.120.151.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00909 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dumbwinter (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wnSVo-00005DC; Sun, 13 Jul 97 19:32 MET DST Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:32:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD users in Italy? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, here in Italy we have at least 2 Linux user groups... What about FreeBSD? ..and what about a cold beer ? ;-) Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. "The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things". From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 12:26:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04008 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04002; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:26:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707131926.MAA04002@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) To: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Cc: devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199707130818.SAA01309@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> from "David Nugent" at Jul 13, 97 06:18:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > But I think money will always > > be dominant. I don't think we can get free food the way we have > > free software, because software is inherently easy to copy, and > > restirctions that make software non-free are artificial. By > > contrast, food production has always been time-consuming. > > Ouch. And developing software is not? Time for a reality check. time per unit of grain (bushel, pound, kilo) vs time per unit of software (copy of a program) the first copy of a program is very expensive the marginal cost of all other copies is exceedingly low. ask someone about the cost of a cd of software vs teh cost of writing the software. therein lies the difference btwn food and software in terms of production cost. in software (and microprocessor design) all the cost if front loaded (note: all means 90%+) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 13:00:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05217 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05211; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:00:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707132000.NAA05211@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? To: molter@logic.it (Marco Molteni) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Marco Molteni" at Jul 13, 97 07:28:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marco Molteni wrote: > > Hi all, > I'm just wondering what computer-related magazines you read/suggest. here are a couple trade magazines that i get unix review sun expert inter@ctive From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 13:20:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05812 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05807 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08050; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707132020.NAA08050@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Marco Molteni cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:28:16 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:20:30 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think the best think to do is to correct the Magazines :( At least here in the US I get the feeling that everything that I read revolves around Microsoft ... Amancio >From The Desk Of Marco Molteni : > Hi all, > I'm just wondering what computer-related magazines you read/suggest. > > I'm used to read Byte, but I'm becoming more and more disappointed > with it. Byte was different from > other magazines because it presumed two things: > 1. readers can at least distinguish a computer from a toaster. > 2. windows isn't the only OS in the universe. > > But now if you read it you can infer that Internet is the unique > best idea in the history of mankind, and surely Internet was invented > by Bill Gates, who in his youth invented the wheel! ;-) > > Marco Molteni > Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. > "The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things". > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 13:38:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06405 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from train.tgci.com (train.tgci.com [205.185.169.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA06400 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emilyd ([206.250.85.68]) by train.tgci.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA12303 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:47:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199707132047.NAA12303@train.tgci.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Riley J. McIntire" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:38:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in Italy? Reply-to: chaos@tgci.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I asked about any Los Angeles/Orange county FreeBSD user groups a few days ago--no one answered so I assume there are none? Anyone in this area interested in forming a FreeBSD user group? LA/OC area? I'd certainly be interested. I'll buy the first beer...:) Riley > Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:32:43 +0200 (MET DST) > From: Marco Molteni > To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: FreeBSD users in Italy? > Hi all, > here in Italy we have at least 2 Linux user groups... > What about FreeBSD? > ..and what about a cold beer ? ;-) > > > Marco Molteni > Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. > "The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things". > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 13:52:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07006 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07001 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id QAA26997; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:52:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id QAA10798; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:52:32 -0400 (EDT) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Marco Molteni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:20:30 PDT." <199707132020.NAA08050@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:52:31 -0400 Message-ID: <10795.868827151@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote in message ID <199707132020.NAA08050@rah.star-gate.com>: > I think the best think to do is to correct the Magazines :( > > At least here in the US I get the feeling that everything > that I read revolves around Microsoft ... Most of their advertisers rely on M$ one way or another. This means knocking M$ in the editorial sections is bad as the advertisers will run. This means a lot of the `consumer' mags are real buddy-buddy with all things Microsoft. There are (or were) even allegations in the UK of some of the mags taking backhanders from M$ for giving good reviews of M$ software. Sorry. I meant to say they got ``advertising bonuses'' Sigh. Anyone want to donate about $20 billion to the FreeBSD project so we could put M$ in their place? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 15:11:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09733 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09724 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id SAA02555; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:10:58 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from default (cnc143033.concentric.net [206.173.207.33]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.5) id SAA25315; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33C96084.988DB9CF@resumes-by-duke.com> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:11:04 -0800 From: ML Duke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re Opinion X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------553D46BCEB10B781200BE012" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --------------553D46BCEB10B781200BE012 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been running (read using) the Xerox 6085 (Viewpoint OS) since 1986, and have watched with facination as first Macintosh and then BG & the boys stole one feature after another from Xerox: With an 80M HD and 3.2M Ram running in Monochrome ever since the long ago 2.2 release, I've been able to do things like work on three documents at once (62 is possible) while a manuscript prints on the 4045 Laser with the PC Option Window open and capable of sending electronic data at the same time--in StandAlone Mode, Network is better. I've long been unable to talk to other computer users because because they just plain thought myself a liar, and I've just recently learned that much of the capability is because Viewpoint (now GVWin on a PC though the 6085 still runs) is a Unix like system from the man who is in the process of introducing me to FreeBSD. I find the difficult/easy debate interesting, and I believe easy will always win as a direct result of personal observation: With Viewpoint long ago and GVWin now, a user can create their own applications by using Choose Statements along the order of "go to document A in folder B, extract the information in Field C, run it through the formula in Field D (contained wherever) and place the result in current folder E Document F." With a report template containing as many fields such as the above as might be desirable, a user can automatically generate the end of week operating report for a bank, the work is done in the background, and the report can be available within 15 minutes of closing on Friday. This is a live example--but no one at the bank wrote the simple Choose Statements. To sell the machines, local Xerox reps had to do it for them. Xerox had better and more efficient power in 1986 than W95 has now--and Xerox fell flat on its face. Users have to think too much. Even Xerox has "migrated" to MS/Office, and they no longer even support GVWin. They are out of the computer business, and current Win drag and drop folder filing--for those who discover its possible--is nothing more or less than a Viewpoint Desktop. ML Duke --------------553D46BCEB10B781200BE012 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been running (read using) the Xerox 6085 (Viewpoint OS) since 1986, and have watched with facination as first Macintosh and then BG & the boys stole one
feature after another from Xerox: With an 80M HD and 3.2M Ram running in Monochrome ever since the long ago 2.2 release, I've been able to do things like work on three documents at once (62 is possible) while a manuscript prints on the 4045 Laser with the PC Option Window open and capable of sending electronic
data at the same time--in StandAlone Mode, Network is better.

I've long been unable to talk to other computer users because because they just plain thought myself a liar, and I've just recently learned that much of the capability is because Viewpoint (now GVWin on a PC though the 6085 still runs) is a Unix like system from the man who is in the process of introducing me to FreeBSD.

I find the difficult/easy debate interesting, and I believe easy will always win as a direct result of personal observation: With Viewpoint long ago and GVWin now, a user can create their own applications by using Choose Statements along the order of "go to document A in folder B, extract the information in Field C, run it through the formula in Field D (contained wherever) and place the result in current folder E Document F."

With a report template containing as many fields such as the above as might be desirable, a user can automatically generate the end of week operating report for a bank, the work is done in the background, and the report can be available within 15 minutes of closing on Friday.

This is a live example--but no one at the bank wrote the simple Choose Statements. To sell the machines, local Xerox reps had to do it for them. Xerox had better and more efficient power in 1986 than W95 has now--and Xerox fell flat on its face. Users have to think too much. Even Xerox has "migrated" to MS/Office, and they no longer even support GVWin. They are out of the computer business, and current Win drag and drop folder filing--for those who discover its possible--is nothing more or less than a Viewpoint Desktop.

ML Duke --------------553D46BCEB10B781200BE012-- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 17:00:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14007 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14002 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA25096; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:59:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Marco Molteni cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:28:16 +0200." Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:59:07 -0700 Message-ID: <25092.868838347@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'm used to read Byte, but I'm becoming more and more disappointed > with it. Byte was different from > other magazines because it presumed two things: > 1. readers can at least distinguish a computer from a toaster. > 2. windows isn't the only OS in the universe. Byte went irrevokably downhill when Jerry Pournelle became their apostle of technology review. Sad to say, most magazines now suck for UNIX users. It used to be that UNIX Review was the last resort for the serious UNIX user, but that is no longer the case given their new emphasis on NT. I expect the name change to "NT review" to happen any day now. I guess there's still Dr. Dobb's Journal, though even that is much less than it used to be. Erm... Communications of the ACM maybe? Scientific American? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 17:06:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14443 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14438 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id UAA26526; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:06:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:06:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199707140006.UAA26526@psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <33C918DC.313C@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> (message from Pedro Giffuni on Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:05:16 -0700) Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: We don't know who discovered water, but we're certain it wasn't a fish. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:05:16 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co That's just one of the reasons to use FreeBSD and not Linux. Some things (like the kernel) are better with a Berkeley-like license, and some things (some apps.) are better with GPL. Why would some things be better with the GPL and some with the BSD license? In the free world, if you spend years developing your high quality tool, and lots of persons will benefit from it, it's only fair that you receive a part of that benefit. The existance of a GNU license only forces a good quality in the final products: if you find a free utility that does all you need you will not buy the commercial version. So why shouldn't kernels have the same protection? When someone buys a M$ OS, he is buying the usability which started this thread. In this sense SCO and the other UNIX resellers seem to have accepted they can't beat win-95, their competidor is NT. In this sense I think it is dishonest to say to the end user that FreeBSD will replace his win-95 box (although it did for some of us) as it is dishonest to say that win-NT is more usable than all unices (although it's true for some). windows 95 is usable? I found getting networking to work on it was much more difficult than getting networking working on Linux... I don't think you're buying usablity. I don't think people conciously choose Microsoft over a free system. Microsoft has arranged to be the default choice, and their marketing people promise more. But you can't force a person to be free. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 17:29:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15882 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15874 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA06113; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:59:26 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707140029.JAA06113@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-Reply-To: <25092.868838347@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jul 13, 97 04:59:07 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:59:25 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > I guess there's still Dr. Dobb's Journal, though even that is much > less than it used to be. Erm... Communications of the ACM maybe? > Scientific American? :-) The DNRC newsletter is about the only publication I subscribe to. 8) > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 17:43:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA16787 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16778 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA11908; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:58:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199707132358.TAA11908@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-Reply-To: <25092.868838347@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jul 13, 97 04:59:07 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Cc: molter@logic.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I guess there's still Dr. Dobb's Journal, though even that is much > less than it used to be. Erm... Communications of the ACM maybe? > Scientific American? :-) Steve Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar INK? Yes, only for the embedded side, but the only mag I bother saving. Byte is only good for raising blood pressure. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 18:06:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18017 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18013 for chat; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:06:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707140106.SAA18013@hub.freebsd.org> To: chat Subject: anyone tested a pentium-II yet Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk anyone have benchmark figures on the pentium-II using it in place of a pentium-pro means changing from 256k (or 512k) chache per chip to shared cached for both processors in a dual-proc system anyone test this yet? or do i misunderstand the chip? jmb . From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 18:31:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19349 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19344 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA13082; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:31:18 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199707140131.UAA13082@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: anyone tested a pentium-II yet In-Reply-To: <199707140106.SAA18013@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jul 13, 97 06:06:22 pm" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:31:17 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > anyone have benchmark figures on the pentium-II > > using it in place of a pentium-pro means changing > from 256k (or 512k) chache per chip > to shared cached for both processors in a dual-proc system > anyone test this yet? > > or do i misunderstand the chip? > The pentium-II has 512K of 2nd level cache per chip. It runs at 1/2 speed relative to the processor. The processor has double the 1st level cache though. John From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 18:34:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19444 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexgen.hiwaay.net (max7-250.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19435 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexgen (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nexgen.hiwaay.net (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA00715 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:34:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199707140134.UAA00715@nexgen.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-reply-to: Message from Michael Smith of "Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:59:25 +0930." <199707140029.JAA06113@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:34:03 -0500 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith said: > > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > > I guess there's still Dr. Dobb's Journal, though even that is much > > less than it used to be. Erm... Communications of the ACM maybe? > > Scientific American? :-) > > The DNRC newsletter is about the only publication I subscribe to. 8) Yea, me too. But I haven't seen a new one since Scott Adams left Pacific Bell. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 19:04:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA21446 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21424 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00425 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707140204.TAA00425@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:34:03 CDT." <199707140134.UAA00715@nexgen.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:04:41 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If you are into C++ , the magazine "C++ Report" is pretty good . Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 19:06:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA21537 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21531 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA06619 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:35:50 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707140205.LAA06619@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-Reply-To: <199707132358.TAA11908@hda.hda.com> from Peter Dufault at "Jul 13, 97 07:58:16 pm" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:35:50 +0930 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Dufault stands accused of saying: > > Steve Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar INK? Yes, only for the embedded side, > but the only mag I bother saving. Byte is only good for raising > blood pressure. *blush* (Proprietor of Circuit Cellar, South Australia, no affiliation.) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 20:31:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA24807 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24802 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id JAA14007; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:27:49 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:27:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199707131327.JAA14007@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: bob@luke.pmr.com CC: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19970713114553.01088@pmr.com> (message from Bob Willcox on Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:45:53 -0500) Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: A standard that no one follows is worse than useless; it is a waste of time. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:45:53 -0500 From: Bob Willcox Reply-To: Bob Willcox Hmm, this ignores the cost of support/service. Depending upon the level of support offered this can be an on-going expense that gets very expensive. Free software relies upon (mostly) free community support. Commercial software usually (in my experience) cannot. Vendor's generally either bundle it in the price of the software or charge separately for it. During my tenure at IBM working on AIX, we wrestled with this problem constantly. One of the principle factors that drove the development of the 4.1 release of AIX was that the 3.2.5 release was bundled with free support, and that the cost of that support was sky-rocketing (and becoming unaffordable). Since IBM's business practices folks would not let us change the terms and conditions of a point release of the OS (so that support could be separately charged for) we had to come out with a whole new release to do so. Support is expensive, period. More expensive than software development. Cygnus wants at least five developers, I think, at prices I would never be able to afford. I think Cyclic came up with a good scheme for reducing queries: if you buy support from them for a 25 person organization, there are only one or two of your people who Cyclic will talk to. Net result is that even if you buy support from Cyclic, a few of your own people are going to do much of the simple work. Support is also often rather meaningless; I've found, for example, that I'm much more competent than the tech support people at Compaq. And I'm no hardware expert. A month ago, I'd never even installed a SCSI drive on a machine... Anyway, IMHO many organizations promise support, but few of them actually come through. Nevertheless, orgainzations who don't understand the technology often have to have competent people. And if you have to deal with things yourself, you're much better off with free software, where you can hire any competent person to solve your problems, rather than being stuck with a potentially unhelpful vendor. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 21:00:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA25887 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from houseofduck.dyn.ml.org (ts002d02.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA25879 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from houseofduck.dyn.ml.org (localhost.concentric.net [127.0.0.1]) by houseofduck.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA11944; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:58:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33C9A3F8.41C67EA6@concentric.net> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:58:48 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-970618-RELEN0 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel N. Weber II" CC: bob@luke.pmr.com, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) References: <199707131327.JAA14007@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II wrote: > Support is also often rather meaningless; I've found, for example, that > I'm much more competent than the tech support people at Compaq. And > I'm no hardware expert. A month ago, I'd never even installed a SCSI > drive on a machine... > > Anyway, IMHO many organizations promise support, but few of them actually > come through. > > Nevertheless, orgainzations who don't understand the technology often > have to have competent people. And if you have to deal with things > yourself, you're much better off with free software, where you can > hire any competent person to solve your problems, rather than being > stuck with a potentially unhelpful vendor. I have done internal and external support on both Mac and Win platforms, and the one thing I have noticed is the smaller the organization, the better support you get. When you start getting into larger companies, they merely hire warm bodies who can pass a basic proficiency test, just to get people answering the phones, and there is no internal access to the people who make things tick. In smaller companies, where they may only have 3-5 people answering support calls, every call needs to "count" more, and the actual rep has a much better chance of being able to flag down the person who wrote the program, or did the QA testing, and query them specifically, in order to get a more specific and personal answer. It's also easier to circulate new information among a smaller group, and compare notes quicker. This means new bugs are isolated and found quicker, and the overall support gets better as new workarounds/incompatabilities are fully circulated within hours, rather than days or weeks. My $.02 JF From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 21:46:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA28636 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28629 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA03955; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:44:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:44:30 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199707140006.UAA26526@psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > windows 95 is usable? I found getting networking to work on it was > much more difficult than getting networking working on Linux... How so? (No, that isn't a troll, I'm honestly curious. Also, the difficulty depends quite a lot on the network you are trying to hook into.) > I don't think you're buying usablity. I don't think people conciously > choose Microsoft over a free system. Microsoft has arranged to be > the default choice, and their marketing people promise more. Well, true to a degree, but overly simplistic. Some people make careful, calculated choices about what hardware and system software they want, then they cobble together applications that work on that system. Free unix-like systems are likely to be found among this crowd. You would find OS/2 users users here as well. The identifying trait here is that the OS *is* the primary application---after all, what is unix if not the ultimately customizable application? :) Some people make careful, calculated choices about what applications they need, then they get whatever OS will run the software. Some unix systems here, but Microsoft Windows with its huge application base dominates. When an organization is choosing how to outfit desktops with machines, the question isn't "what is the coolest, cheapest OS to use", but "what OS runs Excel the best". Sure, you can run windows applications on some Unix or OS/2 systems, but if all your main applications are Windows, it really isn't worth the extra overhead. The long life of MS-DOS is a testament to the triumph of application over OS--users wouldn't touch Windows until their applications migrated and proved themselves. To this day, WordPerfect for DOS is alive and well. A combination of these two are users whose choice of operating system or application software based substantial pre-existing investments in either category. In the case of substantial (windows) application investment, Windows NT has a very secure foothold in this corner of the universe. Microsoft has told us where *they* want to go today and have conveniently provided us with a yellow brick road to get there, with "Microsoft" carefully enscribed on each and every brick. Finally, some people just take what is given to them and if it seems to server their needs without too much pain, they could care less about some hacker yo-yo claiming that their free unix-like system multi-tasks more efficiently. Microsoft has, of course, secured this market by making sure every new Intel based machine comes with Windows 95 pre-installed. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 13 22:56:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA01695 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA01685 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id LAA14866; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:53:11 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:53:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199707131553.LAA14866@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: shag@concentric.net CC: bob@luke.pmr.com, joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu, davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <33C9A3F8.41C67EA6@concentric.net> (message from Joshua Fielden on Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:58:48 -0600) Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Ambiguity means telling the truth when you don't mean to. Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sender: shaggy@houseofduck.dyn.ml.org Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:58:48 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises I have done internal and external support on both Mac and Win platforms, and the one thing I have noticed is the smaller the organization, the better support you get. When you start getting into larger companies, they merely hire warm bodies who can pass a basic proficiency test, just to get people answering the phones, and there is no internal access to the people who make things tick. In smaller companies, where they may only have 3-5 people answering support calls, every call needs to "count" more, and the actual rep has a much better chance of being able to flag down the person who wrote the program, or did the QA testing, and query them specifically, in order to get a more specific and personal answer. It's also easier to circulate new information among a smaller group, and compare notes quicker. This means new bugs are isolated and found quicker, and the overall support gets better as new workarounds/incompatabilities are fully circulated within hours, rather than days or weeks. In my experience, smaller organizations always have less ability to create beauracracy. As far as I can tell, in any orgainzation with at least a hundred people, half of them will be dead wieght. Or, at the very least, half the people will be doing things which aren't ultimately necissary for human survival. For example, in an optimal world, we would need farmers, and we'd need programmers. We wouldn't need people worrying about software licesning, we wouldn't need banks or insurance agencies, etc. (A furthur optomization would be to automate farming so that people wouldn't need to be involved in it.) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 02:05:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA09557 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (mail.onaustralia.com.au [139.134.5.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA09547 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 02:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ad-a02-pool-73.tmns.net.au (ad-a02-pool-73.tmns.net.au [139.134.9.73]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id da351003 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:53:59 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id SAA00689; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:05:32 +0930 (CST) From: grog@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <199707140835.SAA00689@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: 20,000+ subscribers to FreeBSD mailinglists In-Reply-To: <199707100059.RAA26396@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "Jul 9, 97 05:59:52 pm" To: jmb@freebie.lemis.com.${Domain} (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:05:32 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > ****************************** > * List Sizes * > ****************************** > > 20259 total Fascinating. Apart from the obvious double counts, I find the individual numbers surprising. > 5734 freebsd-announce > 1157 freebsd-security Number 2. This suggests that many people who are otherwise not interested in FreeBSD still want to hear about security. Is there some threat here? > 911 freebsd-hackers > 836 freebsd-isp > 758 freebsd-current > 750 freebsd-questions I had always had the feeling that -hackers was the inner circle, that the wannabees were in -questions, and that -isp was quite small. I suppose there are a lot of lurkers in -isp, which is good, but I'm disappointed that -questions is (relatively) so small. > 718 freebsd-stable > 625 freebsd-hardware > 608 aic7xxx > 563 freebsd-security-notifications > 472 freebsd-bugs > 432 freebsd-smp > 416 freebsd-scsi > 397 freebsd-fs > 366 freebsd-ports > 359 freebsd-multimedia > 347 freebsd-chat > 328 freebsd-emulation > 326 freebsd-install > 286 freebsd-platforms No! Please don't port FreeBSD to the 286 platform! Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 04:24:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA14789 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 04:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA14783 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 04:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA11434; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:23:40 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:23:40 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: Amancio Hasty cc: Marco Molteni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-Reply-To: <199707132020.NAA08050@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > I think the best think to do is to correct the Magazines :( > > At least here in the US I get the feeling that everything > that I read revolves around Microsoft ... It does, the amount of stuff that goes on here/everywhere about competing with or bettering or how unix/product-X does/doesn't need to compete with or improve upon microsoft just amazes me. I think that everything you read is probably quite correct. Personally I only read the little booklets Sun/SGI send, and only for humour value of considering buying one of their laptops which sell for several tens of thousands of dollars, just because they run X and have >32MB of memory. Hey, Sun now sell 128MB simms for 5000 uk pounds (guess that's about $10,000). Hey, Software/Lan Warehouse are good to read - same reason. (do you get them in the US?) -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 05:57:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA19697 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA19545 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 05:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA26615; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:45:38 +0300 (EEST) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:45:37 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: John Fieber cc: "Joel N. Weber II" , m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, John Fieber wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > > > windows 95 is usable? I found getting networking to work on it was > > much more difficult than getting networking working on Linux... > > How so? (No, that isn't a troll, I'm honestly curious. Also, > the difficulty depends quite a lot on the network you are trying > to hook into.) Well, have you found a way to assign two different IP numbers to one network interface? Using the standard bundled software? Even NT worstation allows only 5. > > > I don't think you're buying usablity. I don't think people conciously > > choose Microsoft over a free system. Microsoft has arranged to be > > the default choice, and their marketing people promise more. > > Well, true to a degree, but overly simplistic. > > Some people make careful, calculated choices about what hardware > and system software they want, then they cobble together > applications that work on that system. Free unix-like systems > are likely to be found among this crowd. You would find OS/2 > users users here as well. The identifying trait here is that the > OS *is* the primary application---after all, what is unix if not > the ultimately customizable application? :) Well, developing a custom in-house application on a more-or-less in-house system (based on whatever operating system there is) is always another option. I these cases, it might be worth using a free system. Unix is a much better platform to develop software for. At least you know what is going to be in the next release. > > Some people make careful, calculated choices about what > applications they need, then they get whatever OS will run the > software. Some unix systems here, but Microsoft Windows with its > huge application base dominates. When an organization is choosing > how to outfit desktops with machines, the question isn't "what is > the coolest, cheapest OS to use", but "what OS runs Excel the > best". Sure, you can run windows applications on some Unix or What good would be Excel? It with it's macro language (real obfusticated version of Basic with the *most* twisted vision of OO) is overly too slow. Word I can understand. But Excel? It doesn't even have a decent choise/ability to draw graphs. > OS/2 systems, but if all your main applications are Windows, it > really isn't worth the extra overhead. The long life of MS-DOS > is a testament to the triumph of application over OS--users > wouldn't touch Windows until their applications migrated and > proved themselves. To this day, WordPerfect for DOS is alive and > well. > As is WP for SCO, also, most of the big dos programs imho used to be available for unix (at least sco). > A combination of these two are users whose choice of operating > system or application software based substantial pre-existing > investments in either category. In the case of substantial > (windows) application investment, Windows NT has a very secure > foothold in this corner of the universe. Microsoft has told us > where *they* want to go today and have conveniently provided us > with a yellow brick road to get there, with "Microsoft" carefully > enscribed on each and every brick. > > Finally, some people just take what is given to them and if it > seems to server their needs without too much pain, they could > care less about some hacker yo-yo claiming that their free > unix-like system multi-tasks more efficiently. Microsoft has, of > course, secured this market by making sure every new Intel based > machine comes with Windows 95 pre-installed. That some companies (around here) no more sell just systems but you can also order a list of components. For the new system *has* to come with win95 preinstalled which many may not want. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > -john > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 07:31:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA24028 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:31:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24020 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA05094; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:29:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:29:54 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Narvi cc: "Joel N. Weber II" , m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Narvi wrote: > > How so? (No, that isn't a troll, I'm honestly curious. Also, > > the difficulty depends quite a lot on the network you are trying > > to hook into.) > > Well, have you found a way to assign two different IP numbers to one > network interface? Using the standard bundled software? > > Even NT worstation allows only 5. For win95, I would have to ask why you would want to anyway? The only reason I can think of is for setting up server applications, for which win95 is a lousy choice for numerous other reasons. As for NT, clearly MS wants you to shell out the bucks for NT Server. Yes, I find that repulsive. It is rumored that you can twiddle some things in the registry to turn NT Workstation into NT server.... > Unix is a much better platform to develop software for. At least you know > what is going to be in the next release. The unix world isn't immune to directional changes, witness the SunOS to Solaris shift or Ultrix to OSF/1. Anybody know where SCO is headed now that they and HP have joint ownership of UNIX? Heck the change from Net2 to BSD4.4 was a rough transition for some people in the FreeBSD camp. With Microsoft, it isn't so much a question of what will be in the next release, but when it will be. > What good would be Excel? It with it's macro language (real obfusticated > version of Basic with the *most* twisted vision of OO) is overly too slow. > > Word I can understand. But Excel? For me it would be "Excel I can understand, but Word?" Seriously, Excel was just an arbitrary example. You could replace it with any of thousands of Windows-only applications. > As is WP for SCO, also, most of the big dos programs imho used to be > available for unix (at least sco). "Used to" being the operative phrase here. Besides, unless you are in an environment where many users have dumb terminals (I used to work at such a place), what is the point? In many "mission critical application" environments, once the application is started, the OS ceases to be relevant, so why not use an OS that is essentially and fits on a 360K floppy with room to spare? WP for DOS is quite usable on a 80286 with a megabyte of ram. Can you say the same for SCO WordPerfect? -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 07:53:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA24987 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA24982 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 07:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA05156; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:53:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:53:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Stephen Roome cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Stephen Roome wrote: > Hey, Software/Lan Warehouse are good to read - same reason. (do you get > them in the US?) Micro Warehouse, Micro Systems Warehouse, DataComm Warehouse, Mac Warehouse? I usually find at least one of the above in my mailbox nearly every week. If the woman on the front got penny for every use of her photo, she would have made Forbes top 10 richest people in the world. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 08:26:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA26775 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA26766 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA26569; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:11:57 -0400 Message-ID: <33CA601A.5169@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:21:41 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel N. Weber II" CC: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) References: <199707140006.UAA26526@psilocin.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II wrote: > > That's just one of the reasons to use FreeBSD and not Linux. Some things > (like the kernel) are better with a Berkeley-like license, and some > things (some apps.) are better with GPL. > > Why would some things be better with the GPL and some with the BSD license? > why should I have restrictions on my libaries? Why should I be forced to give you my sources? Take Emerging Technologies and MOSIX as live examples. > In the free world, if you spend years developing your high quality tool, > and lots of persons will benefit from it, it's only fair that you > receive a part of that benefit. The existance of a GNU license only > forces a good quality in the final products: if you find a free utility > that does all you need you will not buy the commercial version. > > So why shouldn't kernels have the same protection? > FreeBSD has that protection, but it's more elegant. If a vendor gets a very advantageous product, say an LKM, he will voluntarily provide some kernel patches to keep his product compatible with all versions of FreeBSD and therefore lower the cost of support. A commercial competidor may also provide a free implementation to reduce his competitor's gain margin. The GNU license is, in fact, very artificial and hasn't limited the action Big-Bucks (TM). > > windows 95 is usable? I found getting networking to work on it was > much more difficult than getting networking working on Linux... > That's because you use UNIX and it's clones all days...surprise! most people actually use M$-Windows. A company considers win-95 is cheaper than Linux because everyone already knows how to use win-95 and live with it's problems. (I'm speaking only Colombia here, perhaps in the USA everyone uses Linux in their offices but I honestly doubt it) > > But you can't force a person to be free. Not without marketing...and after the marketing they will not be free anyway ;) Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 09:24:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA29898 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6596.on.sympatico.ca (ppp6596.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.208.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29885 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6596.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00372; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:20:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) In-Reply-To: <33C833F8.CEC@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > > IMO, FreeBSD and the GNU systems will win over M$ on the long run: > mercenaries just can't beat organizations that don't depend on > Big-Bucks(TM) :-). Which reminds me of an ad for MS backoffice which I just saw (actually, the ad reminded me of the message, but who's counting? ;). "Did someone say scalability?" ... [suggests MS is more scalable than UNIX] ... "For as little as 1/3 the price of UNIX" (which dollar signs floating around). It's amazing that they can get away with stuff like that... Their goal seems not so much to draw customers away from UNIX as it is to influence people who have experience with neither... IMHO... From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 10:16:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02973 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02959; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA27105; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:02:30 -0400 Message-ID: <33CA6403.32CF@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:39:19 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <"jmb"@freebie.lemis.com.${Domain}>, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: 20,000+ subscribers to FreeBSD mailinglists References: <199707140835.SAA00689@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk grog@FreeBSD.ORG wrote: > ... > > 718 freebsd-stable > > 625 freebsd-hardware > > 608 aic7xxx > > 563 freebsd-security-notifications > > 472 freebsd-bugs > > 432 freebsd-smp > > 416 freebsd-scsi > > 397 freebsd-fs > > 366 freebsd-ports > > 359 freebsd-multimedia > > 347 freebsd-chat > > 328 freebsd-emulation > > 326 freebsd-install > > 286 freebsd-platforms > > No! Please don't port FreeBSD to the 286 platform! > Don't worry; everything below freebsd-chat has a really low priority ;-) Pedro. > Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 10:17:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03035 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03019 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA27108; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:02:53 -0400 Message-ID: <33CA77BB.73D0@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:02:19 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Fieber CC: "Joel N. Weber II" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber wrote: > > > > Unix is a much better platform to develop software for. At least you know > > what is going to be in the next release. > > The unix world isn't immune to directional changes, witness the > SunOS to Solaris shift or Ultrix to OSF/1. Anybody know where > SCO is headed now that they and HP have joint ownership of UNIX? I went to one of their conferences: very sad show...they played this "very northamerican" tape where they hired a comediant that makes fun of polititians and Berkeley students. Very simplisticly, they say: 1) They are the most popular commercial UNIX in world and now that they own it they will keep that way by "integrating" SVR3 and SVR4. 2) NT's growth in the Internet hasn't affected them because they are UNIX and stats show that only Novell is being affected. They also say bet on NCs. 3) They licensed some products from M$ and they support Java and Netscape's servers (Advanced File and Print Server). They are also developing a 64-bit version of their OS so they have the technology lead! It is evident they are worried about free software; they simply don't mention it and they released this single user versions. In short..Don't expect anything good from them. Curiously most commercial Linux applications are not available for SCO. There's no Acrobat reader, no Matlab, no Mathematica... couldn't some caritative hacker implement them an emulation module? :-) Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 10:17:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03053 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03031 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA27116; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:03:15 -0400 Message-ID: <33CA7982.2528@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:09:54 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marco Molteni CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marco Molteni wrote: > > Hi all, > I'm just wondering what computer-related magazines you read/suggest. > FWIW I read one SCO WORLD the other day. This magazines usually come with zero knowledge, and some scripts. One editor explained the only free software they consider interesting is SAMBA and PERL. Some (very reduced number) of their adds are interesting as they show hardware I have never seen, or commercial products I have never heard of. Perhaps FreeBSD should advertise there, users are probably desesperate for a reality check ! Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 10:57:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA04948 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04941 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA05868; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:53:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:53:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My opinion about freebsd (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > Which reminds me of an ad for MS backoffice which I just saw > (actually, the ad reminded me of the message, but who's counting? > ;). "Did someone say scalability?" ... [suggests MS is more > scalable than UNIX] ... "For as little as 1/3 the price of UNIX" > (which dollar signs floating around). > > It's amazing that they can get away with stuff like that... Their Now that the Federal Trade Commission (www.ftc.gov) has killed Joe Cammel, maybe they should check up on Microsoft again. Too bad they wimped out last time. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 16:16:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20868 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rush.aero.org (rush.aero.org [130.221.192.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20862 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by rush.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29675; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by anpiel.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24632; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707142305.QAA24632@anpiel.aero.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Marco Molteni , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:59:07 PDT." <25092.868838347@time.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:05:31 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Byte went irrevokably downhill when Jerry Pournelle became their > apostle of technology review. Boy, got THAT right. It's tough being a science fiction fan in a town full of Pournelle-worshippers. It's kept me out of organized fandom for 20 years. > Sad to say, most magazines now suck for UNIX users. It used to be > that UNIX Review was the last resort for the serious UNIX user, > but that is no longer the case given their new emphasis on NT. Well, biased I certainly am, but there's still Sun Expert. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 14 22:06:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05485 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexgen.hiwaay.net (max4-118.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05474 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexgen (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nexgen.hiwaay.net (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA03469 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:02:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199707150402.XAA03469@nexgen.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-reply-to: Message from "Mike O'Brien" of "Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:05:31 PDT." <199707142305.QAA24632@anpiel.aero.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:02:57 -0500 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Byte went irrevokably downhill when Jerry Pournelle became their > > apostle of technology review. > > Boy, got THAT right. It's tough being a science fiction fan in a > town full of Pournelle-worshippers. It's kept me out of organized > fandom for 20 years. Byte's last straw for me was a last page editorial instructing us of the evils of investing in RISC based computers, that CISC would never be abandonded and will protect your software investment. Reflecting back, I guess he was right. But all the reasons were wrong and two or more wrongs don't make a right. (But 3 lefts will.) Several years later Dr. Dobbs was doing this wonderful series on something called "386BSD", so for a while I subscribed to another computer magazine. Thru it all, I've still maintained my subscriptions to MacUser and MacWeek. Sometimes borrow an issue of PCWeek. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 01:02:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA13555 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA13532 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 01:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.6) id SAA06428 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:01:52 +1000 Received: from bard.dtir.qld.gov.au by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.7.5/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id RAA12509 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:35:39 +1000 (EST) Received: (from syspmc@localhost) by bard.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA01067; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:36:29 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 17:36:29 +1000 (EST) From: Phil Chadwick Message-Id: <199707150736.RAA01067@bard.dtir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hylafax and FBSD2.2.2 Newsgroups: local.freebsd.chat References: <199707092358.JAA29130@gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In local.freebsd.chat you write: >Hi all, >I'm having heaps of trouble trying to get Hylafax running on my 2.2.2 box. I have had HylaFAX running under all sorts of operating systems, including FreeBSD 2.1.5, 2.2.2 and 3.0. Works a treat. Absolutely great software. Though, from recollection, I believe have always compiled and installed the source code, rather than installing the ports version. The configuration problems usually come with the modem!!! What sort of modem are you using? Phil -- Phil Chadwick Email: syspmc@dtir.qld.gov.au ,-_|\ Supervisor, UNIX Support Phone: +61 7 3247 9239 / * Department of Training Fax: +61 7 3247 9111 \_,-._/ and Industrial Relations v From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 06:18:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA25846 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dumbwinter (mod15.logic.it [195.120.151.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA25838 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 06:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dumbwinter (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wo78N-00004rC; Tue, 15 Jul 97 14:55 MET DST Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:55:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? A first summary In-Reply-To: <199707150402.XAA03469@nexgen.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I got so many replies that I'm trying to make a summary :-) **** Ah, yes, the poll is still open! **** Programming: Dr. Dobbs Journal C++ Report Misc stuff, windoze biased: Byte Unix: Unix Review Sun Expert SCO World Linux Journal Embedded systems: Circuit Cellar INK the Bible series: (probably a bit metaphysical ;-) Communications of the ACM foreign OSes: MacUser, MacWeek waiting to be catalogued: inter@active DNRC Newsletter "my dreams" magazine: poll open! --- The magazine I'd like should contain articles about: hardware in the large (eg computer architecture, UPS, RAID, ...), networking (eg NICs, routers, cabling, ...), interesting OSes (eg embedded systems, Inferno, Plan 9, ...), case studies of software projects, ... ah yes, I forgot the centerfold !!! ;-) Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' di Milano, Italy. "The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things". From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 08:34:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04769 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04742; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA15772; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:34:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: chat@freebsd.org cc: current@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Curious about application of Anti-SPAM law. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk First, this isn't about potentially including email in the fax ban. Nevada recently became the first state to enact legislation with a penalty specifically for unrequested commercial email. ($10 per message). The question is, how effective could a law like this be? I'm still trying to get ahold of the text of the law, so I'm not sure exactly what it covers, and if they bothered addressing things like spamming an email list that just happens to have nevada residents (like this one). I'm particularly curious, because one of the cybersmut spammers is actually located in Las Vegas, NV. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 08:34:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04865 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bmccane.uit.net (bmccane.uit.net [208.129.189.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04811; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bmccane.uit.net (localhost.mccane.com [127.0.0.1]) by bmccane.uit.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22881; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:34:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199707151534.KAA22881@bmccane.uit.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Amancio Hasty cc: multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free At Last: A Scanner Storyn In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Jun 1997 23:30:06 PDT." <199706290630.XAA07386@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:34:13 -0500 From: Wm Brian McCane Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is what I did to the scsi subsystem: > > /sys/scsi/scsiconf.c: > static struct scsidevs unknowndev = > { > T_UNKNOWN, T_UNKNOWN, 0, "*", "*", "*", > "uk", SC_ONE_LU > /* "uk", SC_MORE_LUS*/ > }; > > > /sys/scsi/scsi_ioctl.c: > > case XS_BUSY: > SC_DEBUG(xs->sc_link,SDEV_DB3,("busy\n")); > screq->retsts = SCCMD_BUSY; > break; > > default: > /*sc_print_addr(xs->sc_link); */ > screq->retsts = SCCMD_UNKNOWN; > break; > } > Howdy, sorry it has taken me so long to get back with you, I've been very busy (yay! I get paid ;). Anyway, after making your changes and building a new UNIX kernel, it appears to work "correctly". Except for one small problem: Whataver is in the buffer passed to the "INQUIRY" command in mustek.c is returned unchanged. The odd thing is that I am being told that the command succeeded, and that 96 bytes were read. I have tried to look at umax_??.c for differences, but there are more than a few. I then tried: $ scsi -f /dev/uk0 -c "12 0 0 0 60 0" -i 96 "s8" the Kernel debug output looks like: uk0(ahc0:3:0): scsi_cmd uk0(ahc0:3:0): get_xs uk0(ahc0:3:0): returning xs(0xf048dc00): flg(0x60)sc_link(0xf048db80)retr(0x2)timo(0x186a0) cmd(0xf048dc58)len(0x6)data(0x0)len(0x0)res(0x0) err(0x0)bp(0x0) uk0: command: 0,0,0,0,0,0-[0 bytes] uk0(ahc0:3:0): scsi_done uk0: command: 0,0,0,0,0,0-[0 bytes] uk0(ahc0:3:0): back in cmd() uk0(ahc0:3:0): sc_err1,err = 0x0 uk0(ahc0:3:0): free_xs uk0(ahc0:3:0): ukopen: dev=0x1f00 (unit 0) result 0 uk0(ahc0:3:0): scsi_do_ioctl(0xc0605101) uk0(ahc0:3:0): user_strategy uk0(ahc0:3:0): scsi_cmd uk0(ahc0:3:0): get_xs uk0(ahc0:3:0): returning xs(0xf048dc00): flg(0x428)sc_link(0xf048db80)retr(0x0)timo(0x7d0) cmd(0xf048dc58)len(0x6)data(0xf377e080)len(0x60) res(0x0)err(0x0)bp(0xf0861000) uk0: command: 12,0,0,0,60,0-[96 bytes] ------------------------------ 000: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 016: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 032: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 048: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ------------------------------ uk0(ahc0:3:0): abuk0(ahc0:3:0): scsi_done uk0: command: 12,0,0,0,60,0-[96 bytes] ------------------------------ 000: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 016: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 032: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 048: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ------------------------------ uk0(ahc0:3:0): calling user done() uk0(ahc0:3:0): user-done uk0(ahc0:3:0): no error uk0(ahc0:3:0): returned from user done() uk0(ahc0:3:0): free_xs uk0(ahc0:3:0): returning to adapter out to sleep uk0(ahc0:3:0): back from sleep uk0(ahc0:3:0): ukclose: Closing device Notice that ALL 0's are returned in the result buffer, which is what is passed in the scsi command because they "bzero" the buffer before calling scsireq_enter. Could my problem be because this is a "Unknown device" and is thus not copying the result buffer into user space. Or could it be something else? brian From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 09:03:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06858 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06843 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04617 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA15446 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:15:26 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? A first summary In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Marco Molteni wrote: : Programming: : C++ Report : I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the C/C++ User's Journal. It's a good complement to the C++ Report since it's articles tend to be spawned from actual project designs and implementations. Hence it's a bit less academic than the Report, which deals a lot with language issues. How many of you FreeBSD users actually read the Linux Journal or even use Linux? I'm would also have to put at least three or four games oriented mags among my favorites. I really need to start subscriptions; I'm spending way too much at the newsstands. :-) K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 10:03:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA10666 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rush.aero.org (rush.aero.org [130.221.192.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10661 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by rush.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10255; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by anpiel.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25316; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707151651.JAA25316@anpiel.aero.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Marco Molteni , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what magazines do you read? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:41:51 PDT." <24777.868938111@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:51:56 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > True. Do you think they'd publish a FreeBSD vs Solaris x86 > article? :-) Almost certainly. I did a column about a year ago on the wonders of BSD sockets vs. TLI, which generated the finest flame I've ever read, from Mike O'Dell, who forcefully put it to me that I had been FAR too even-handed in not consigning TLI to the flames of the darkest pit Hell has to offer. That was just a column, though, not an article. They'd probably love to see one on the subject. I say go for it. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to write it right now because I'm preparing The Collected Ravings of Mr. Protocol for a book publisher. Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 10:45:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA12825 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA12817 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA15981; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:45:11 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:45:11 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199707151745.KAA15981@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Curious about application of Anti-SPAM law. In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article you write: > >First, this isn't about potentially including email in the fax ban. Nevada >recently became the first state to enact legislation with a penalty >specifically for unrequested commercial email. ($10 per message). The Nevada law is a joke. No, it's worse than a joke -- it's a horrible mistake, which will do more harm than good. First of all, it is an opt-out law, instead of opt-in. That means that a spammer simply has to get a new account name, and can send you as much email as he likes. Also, he can send as much email as he likes until you say "stop." Second, it only requires that there be a "method" for opting out. It doesn't say what this method needs to be; as written, the law would allow a spammer to charge $100 (or any other arbitrary amount) to be taken off the list. And then it doesn't really enforce it. What is worst about this is that the law that was originall drafted was actually pretty reasonable. Then, at the last minute, the DMA did some behind-the-doors lobbying, and the law was changed in secret and then passed off to the governero, who signed it into law. As a spam deterrent, the law does nothing except legitimize spam. The DMA must be ecstatic. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 12:29:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19126 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns1.netcologne.de (ns1.netcologne.de [194.8.194.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA19046; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from janus by ns1.netcologne.de (8.6.12/NetCologne/marvin/netsafe-a0020) id ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:25:04 +0200 with ESMTP X-Ncc-Regid: de.netcologne Message-ID: <33CBCF59.6944D32C@netcologne.de> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:28:25 +0200 From: Richard Cochius Reply-To: richard.cochius@netcologne.de Organization: Media Connect Cologne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "\"'freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org'\"" , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , "freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG" , "freebsd-multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG" , "freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG" , "hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" , "owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" , "questions@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: unsubscribe X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A49C1ABE0E75DBD5710EBE03" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A49C1ABE0E75DBD5710EBE03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe --------------A49C1ABE0E75DBD5710EBE03 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Richard Cochius Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Richard Cochius n: Cochius;Richard org: Media Connect Cologne adr: ;;;;;; email;internet: richard.cochius@netcologne.de tel;work: tel;fax: tel;home: x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------A49C1ABE0E75DBD5710EBE03-- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 12:30:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19331 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19289; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id UAA16305; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:45:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA15532; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:40:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970715204023.30882@gtn.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:40:23 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, de-bsd-chat@de.freebsd.org Subject: Proud to say, that my companies internet gateway is FreeBSD based now Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks, a little success story ... www.wup.de - is a P200 Machine with 128 MB RAM - Tyan Tomcat II board - AHA 2940UW - 2 x 2.1 GB Quantum Atlas I - TDC 4222 5GB Streamer - Intel Ether Express 10/100 PCI Network card (if I remember right) ->> running FreeBSD-2.2.2 It runs the following services flawlessly: - DNS (bind) - WWW (apache) - ftp (BSD4.4) - mail (sendmail) - news (inn 1.5.1) - proxy (squid) The machine does it's Job really fast ! The machine runs sshd to make sure, that it can be administrated remotely. tcp_wrappers is used to protect the machine against intruders. It's connected via ISDN (64KBit) to the internet, so don't expect much performance. The Web pages are still pre pre pre ALPHA, the ones from our branch office in the US. So don't expect too much at this time. Only wanted to tell you, that I got it managed to bring FreeBSD in ;-) Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 13:19:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21900 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ms.tlk.com (root@mars.ms.tlk.com [194.97.68.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21894 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zappa(really [194.97.68.59]) by ms.tlk.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:08:42 +0200 (MET DST)) Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Andreas Braukmann" Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:20:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Lastest snap-CD from Walnut Creek Reply-to: braukmann@tse-online.de Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello altogether, .. today arrived the first delivery from my Snapshot-CD-subscription (FreeBSD 3.0 May 22nd, 1997). The title says: "now 2-DISC set" ... hmm, but mine contains only a single disc??? Is there anybody out there who received a "single-disc 2 CD-ROM set"? Regards, Andreas | PGP - Fuer sichere und freie Kommunikation | Fingerprint: C7 BD BD 13 80 4B 33 C2 E6 FF 0D 72 AA 57 55 30 | public-Key: mailto:braukmann@tse-online.de?subject=Send%20Key | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | TSE TeleService GmbH http://www.tse-online.de | DV- und Internet-Consulting | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | HRB 1430 - AG Warendorf - Gsf: Arne Reuter, Andreas Braukmann From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 13:51:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23637 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA23627 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA12438; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:50:57 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA09434; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:37:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970715223729.LT52951@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 22:37:29 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: braukmann@tse-online.de Subject: Re: Lastest snap-CD from Walnut Creek References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Andreas Braukmann on Jul 15, 1997 22:20:47 +0200 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Andreas Braukmann wrote: > .. today arrived the first delivery from my > Snapshot-CD-subscription (FreeBSD 3.0 May 22nd, 1997). > The title says: "now 2-DISC set" ... hmm, but mine > contains only a single disc??? Looks like a bug, contact cdrom.com for it. I didn't even open mine until now :), but it indeed contains two discs. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 15 14:28:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA25140 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25135 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA10698; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:21:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id QAA20407; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:28:47 -0500 Message-ID: <19970715162845.48810@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:28:46 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, braukmann@tse-online.de Subject: Re: Lastest snap-CD from Walnut Creek References: <19970715223729.LT52951@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <19970715223729.LT52951@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Jul 07, 1997 at 10:37:29PM +0200 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Jul 07, 1997 at 10:37:29PM +0200, J Wunsch wrote: > As Andreas Braukmann wrote: > > > .. today arrived the first delivery from my > > Snapshot-CD-subscription (FreeBSD 3.0 May 22nd, 1997). > > The title says: "now 2-DISC set" ... hmm, but mine > > contains only a single disc??? > > Looks like a bug, contact cdrom.com for it. I didn't even open mine > until now :), but it indeed contains two discs. Would this bug be related to the old Usenet line-eating bug? Do we have a cdrom-eating bug on the loose? :-) :-) -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 17 20:25:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA24020 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA24013; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:25:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707180325.UAA24013@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary To: ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu (Guy Helmer) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Guy Helmer" at Jul 17, 97 08:32:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 386BSD 0.1, ;) yeah, and then the 24 patch levels some patches conflicting i was running it on a 386sx-25 with a stiction laden scsi disk and the st01 driver ;) good memories (much better as memories, than actually using it) jmb Guy Helmer wrote: > > I just struck me that 386BSD 0.1 was released five years ago today IIRC. > > It brings back memories of FTP'ing lots of files from agate.berkeley.edu > very slowly, gathering enough 3.5" diskettes to do the install, trying to > install it on an ESDI disk with goofed-up geometry and lots of bad > sectors, and trying to get the networking stuff to work reliably through a > bad Ethernet multiport transceiver. Makes the current FreeBSD install > seem like toddler's play :-) > > Guy Helmer, Computer Science Graduate Student - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu > Iowa State University http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer > > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 17 21:23:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA26841 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26836 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA04019 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:53:22 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707180423.NAA04019@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Imminent death of ISA predicted, film at 11... To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:53:21 +0930 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk http://www8.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0630/03espec.html " Despite Intel and Microsoft's attempts to rid the PC industry of the legacy ISA bus, it will not come to pass even next year. The exclusion of ISA, which does not support Plug and Play, will still be a recommendation, not a requirement, in PC98, meaning that PC makers will continue to build it in. "You can imagine a big, sad face attached to this part of the spec," said Hyde. "We wanted to get rid of ISA in 1998, but we can't do it before 1999." After January 1999, Microsoft will not grant a Windows logo to PC makers who include ISA slots in its systems. " Points will be awarded for cynical observations on the above four paragraphs. I give myself four and a half; see if you can do better. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 17 21:29:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA27254 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA27240; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA16295; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:29:48 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:29:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707180429.WAA16295@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu (Guy Helmer), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary In-Reply-To: <199707180325.UAA24013@hub.freebsd.org> References: <199707180325.UAA24013@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 386BSD 0.1, ;) > yeah, and then the 24 patch levels > some patches conflicting Those darn 'patches' were the primary reason the 'interim release' which later became FreeBSD came into being. :) :) Nate ps. I do have to give Terry credit though. In spite of the hassles in building things, the whole 'patchkit' really was one of the first organized bug tracking setup we did, and if it wasn't for using it and the whole hassle it entailed we might never have used Real SCM software in FreeBSD. :) :) :) :) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 17 21:32:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA27455 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA27447; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:32:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707180432.VAA27447@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@freebsd.org, ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199707180429.WAA16295@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jul 17, 97 10:29:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > > > 386BSD 0.1, ;) > > yeah, and then the 24 patch levels > > some patches conflicting > > Those darn 'patches' were the primary reason the 'interim release' which > later became FreeBSD came into being. :) :) > > > Nate > > ps. I do have to give Terry credit though. In spite of the hassles in > building things, the whole 'patchkit' really was one of the first > organized bug tracking setup we did, and if it wasn't for using it and > the whole hassle it entailed we might never have used Real SCM software > in FreeBSD. :) :) :) :) > yeah, that true, there were 3 or was it 5 version of a particular patch...number 19 sticks in my head ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 17 21:36:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA27664 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA27658; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA16329; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:36:34 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:36:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707180436.WAA16329@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary In-Reply-To: <199707180432.VAA27447@hub.freebsd.org> References: <199707180429.WAA16295@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199707180432.VAA27447@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > 386BSD 0.1, ;) > > > yeah, and then the 24 patch levels > > > some patches conflicting > > > > Those darn 'patches' were the primary reason the 'interim release' which > > later became FreeBSD came into being. :) :) > > yeah, that true, there were 3 or was it 5 version of a particular > patch...number 19 sticks in my head ;) I think that was Bruce's tty patch, but my memory has blotted out most of the past. (I do have the last patchkit I released before turning it over to Jordan still on tape though. :) :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 17 22:03:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA28822 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kevin.sunshine.net (pme09.sunshine.net [204.191.205.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA28799; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by kevin.sunshine.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA00679; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:56:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: kevin.sunshine.net: cagey owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:55:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Kevin Eliuk X-Sender: cagey@kevin.sunshine.net To: FreeBSD Chat , "FreeBSD Doc." Subject: Re: Maybe a lot of inputs for new users (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi All, I thought -chat and -doc would be a good place to forward this reply from Per regarding his camp experiences. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:41:19 +0200 To: Kevin Eliuk From: Per Eegehauge Subject: Re: Maybe a lot of inputs for new users Hi Kevin I finally got some time to answer some of your questions. My 'job' here at the camp takes up most of my time - It's morning here i DK now. If you want further details - please mail me. Tomorrow is our last day here at the camp. Sorry for the mess and my English. This is written on a w95 box. My ISP has some problems accepting chap at high speeds. > I am looking for input from new users that would be helpful > in writing Lessons for a Learn interface. > > The areas I would be most interested in: > i) Having Fun:) That's no problem. I got a lot of old (and very odd) computer gear from a couple of local companies. When it was too hot to do computers we went to the beach. Manuals and learning C - I'm not a very good C programmer - was done after dinner. We had a lot of fun. It's no joke that the worlds most popular program is 'hello, world'. At my job I use ADA. Talk about syntax and type checking! I really needed an example of how to use ncurses. The W95 graphic interface has moved a lot of users from text based OS's. > ii) An appraisal of how easy/difficult installation > and setup went. The installation went pretty easy for most of the kids. We made a diskette with the installation program. That's a great way to do the installation. We also tried the net installation but I couldn't get it to work - probably because that the BSD servers were to busy? I had some difficulties with the different types of disks and disk controllers. As I said it was a lot of odd hardware! We got 6 386/486 running in two days. I missed lot of ram modules for the 386 (old type) so most of the machines are 8MB. The 486 which use the 72 pin modules are all with 16MB - one with 32MB. Now we have 15 machines with BSD 2.2.2 and windoze 95 (don't tell Bill) running. The W95 is needed for playing games. The games that comes with BSD is a problem! We started 'make world' before going to the beach or before dinner. The 386 take almost a whole day to compile. The oldest kids sat up most of the night to see how their make went. There were no installation problems that I couldn't solve - my luck! I was very happy for my book for the 2.1.5 version. I only had one printer and the budget I had to work with was very small. > iii) What areas of operation they found most > interesting(cool, neat, narly, whatever). We have talked a lot about this. I think that the most 'cool' thing was to assemble all the gear and to find out that we had a working machine after a lot of hard work. We had a lot of fun trying to see the difference between W95 and BSD. The W95 is great but it slows down a 386 to a crawl. All the 386 with BSD run a lot faster. I have told all the kids that they can write/call me and ask questions and that I would like some kind of comments of how they think that the camp project was arranged. Unfortunately there is a lot there don't have access to the Internet but I'll se them all again in September. They must have got a lot of experience with BSD then. All got a CD with the 2.2.2 version with all the doc. and they know how to contact the BSD questions list. I allowed two of the boys to use my email account to write some questions to the list. They got a lot of answers. We were very impressed of the 'service'. I hope that some of the kids can answer some of the mails at the question list after they have got some experience with BSD. > iv) What goals (in your observations) would would > attract new user. GAMES! That's a real problem. Most of the kids are used to play games. Here in DK we have a lot of shops where you can pay some money and then play all the popular games for a couple of hours. The setup for printing is a problem for a new user. Some kind of menu in the /stand/sysinstall of how to set up a non-PS printer would be a nice thing. I'm working on this problem but right now I haven't got the time. Then there is the new feature with the X system. ALL wants X! I had to setup most of the PC's to use the vga_mono (very old VGA adapters). Mono worked on all machines. I know that the X system is not a BSD problem but something has to be done to attract new users. Some of the kids missed an office pack. The text-based editors don't attract new users! > v) If it doesn't take the fun out of it, a quick > overview by the kids, from there experience. I have tried to get Peter and Niels (the two real freaks) to write down their experiences but the are afraid of using English. When we meet again in September I will have some more info for you. This mail is just for info. I have a lot of other material that I would like to share with the BSD community. Btw: How do I join the BSD doc group. Best wishes from a hot a very humid Denmark - Per Per Eegehauge mailto:phce@image.dk Arnestedet 17 mail2:per@decus.dk DK-2720 Vanloese Denmark ---------- END Forwarded message ---------- What a great way to introduce newusers to FreeBSD :-) -- =| Regards, =| FreeBSD ==> http://www.FreeBSD.org =| Kevin G. Eliuk =| "Free at last, free at last, ...." British Columbia *BSD User Directory ==> http://www.cynic.net From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 17 22:11:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA29344 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29333; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA04561; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:40:50 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707180510.OAA04561@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary In-Reply-To: <199707180436.WAA16329@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Jul 17, 97 10:36:34 pm" To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:40:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, nate@mt.sri.com, ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams stands accused of saying: > > > > 386BSD 0.1, ;) > > > > yeah, and then the 24 patch levels > > > > some patches conflicting > > > > > > Those darn 'patches' were the primary reason the 'interim release' which > > > later became FreeBSD came into being. :) :) > > > > yeah, that true, there were 3 or was it 5 version of a particular > > patch...number 19 sticks in my head ;) > > I think that was Bruce's tty patch, but my memory has blotted out most > of the past. (I do have the last patchkit I released before turning it > over to Jordan still on tape though. :) :) As one of the many who were hapless slaves of another operating system, or at best amazed onlookers at the time, may I suggest that on this anniversary those of you who _were_ involved (and you know who you are) hoist a receptacle of your favorite beverage in thanks to yourselves and your fellows. Without your perseverance (and perverstity) things would be Much Worse right now. > Nate -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 18 03:28:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA14257 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA14250 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (buckpalace [206.173.119.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id GAA14058; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:27:58 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from default (cnc143033.concentric.net [206.173.207.33]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.5) id GAA22473; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 06:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33CF5345.711AFF0B@resumes-by-duke.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:28:06 -0800 From: ML Duke X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nathan Dorfman CC: MGMUK@aol.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Review. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199707180218.WAA07039@limbo.senate.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nathan Dorfman wrote: > Let me get this straight. You want to review FreeBSD, but your company > only > reviews products on Win95/NT. So, in essence, you are asking for a > Win95/NT > version of FreeBSD? > > No wonder you're on AOL :-) > I am a FreeBSD Novice, but even to me FreeBSD on W95/NT is just too funny for words--and I'm a WordSmith. ML Duke From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 18 07:17:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA22352 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22345 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 07:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26509 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18776 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:30:28 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Moving FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <15200.869187825@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: : the Linux stuff only got done because some apache group within : Netscape pushed it through before anyone in upper management really : caught on. :) >From what I've heard, the latest version of Mosaic supports some advanced browser features. Maybe that would be a good place to start. There's also an effort in the Linux community to write a new advanced browser, though I can't remember the name of it right now. : It's at B&N and Egghead now - I've seen it at both places, just not : very well stocked. We hope to address this by coming out with a new : retail box and updated book which make it a more attractive shelf : item. I know of two places in the Boston area that have BSD-flavored UNIXes on their shelves. Several more have some Linux distribution or another, usually in a professionally designed box with a book and a few CDs. Newbies seem attracted to these "easy to install" kits, so your idea is probably sound. K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 18 08:05:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA25024 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25006 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05033; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707181505.IAA05033@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Moving FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:30:28 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:05:22 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There is also amaya out of http://www.w3.org . amaya works on FreeBSD. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of The Classiest Man Alive : > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > : the Linux stuff only got done because some apache group within > : Netscape pushed it through before anyone in upper management really > : caught on. :) > > From what I've heard, the latest version of Mosaic supports some advanced > browser features. Maybe that would be a good place to start. There's > also an effort in the Linux community to write a new advanced browser, > though I can't remember the name of it right now. > > : It's at B&N and Egghead now - I've seen it at both places, just not > : very well stocked. We hope to address this by coming out with a new > : retail box and updated book which make it a more attractive shelf > : item. > > I know of two places in the Boston area that have BSD-flavored UNIXes on > their shelves. Several more have some Linux distribution or another, > usually in a professionally designed box with a book and a few CDs. > Newbies seem attracted to these "easy to install" kits, so your idea is > probably sound. > > K.S. > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 18 08:58:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA29708 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29699 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id LAA15521; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:58:33 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:58:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199707181558.LAA15521@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FTC regulating use of registrations From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, the good ol' FTC is taking a hand in the Internet now. It appears that they have declared it illegal to request information on minors without the parent's consent. Is it just me, or do these guys a) not know a blasted thing about the net, and b) suffer from a case of rectocranial inversion? I mean, I'm all for protecting children and all, but the way to go about it must be firmly based in realistic ideas. This actually looks to me like a thinly-veiled way for the government to reassert its control on the Internet. Cheers, joelh -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 18 09:06:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00445 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA00435 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id MAA15572; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:06:12 -0400 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:06:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199707181606.MAA15572@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com CC: ksmm@cybercom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199707181505.IAA05033@rah.star-gate.com> (message from Amancio Hasty on Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:05:22 -0700) Subject: Re: Moving FreeBSD From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >There is also amaya out of http://www.w3.org . amaya works on FreeBSD. Not to mention the under-construction GNU graphical web browser, E-scape. -- Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 18 09:34:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01857 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01805 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05410; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707181633.JAA05410@rah.star-gate.com> To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu cc: ksmm@cybercom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Moving FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:06:12 EDT." <199707181606.MAA15572@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:33:58 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes, the gnu stuff once is done should be interesting. Amaya is really nice and it incorporates plugins and an editor. Additionally, its option for viewing the structure of a document is not bad in fact I like it. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Joel Ray Holveck : > > >There is also amaya out of http://www.w3.org . amaya works on FreeBSD. > > Not to mention the under-construction GNU graphical web browser, > E-scape. > > -- > Second law of programming: > Anything that can go wrong wi > sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 18 10:01:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03163 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03151; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:00:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707181700.KAA03151@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199707181558.LAA15521@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "Joel Ray Holveck" at Jul 18, 97 11:58:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > Well, the good ol' FTC is taking a hand in the Internet now. It > appears that they have declared it illegal to request information on > minors without the parent's consent. > > Is it just me, or do these guys > a) not know a blasted thing about the net, and > b) suffer from a case of rectocranial inversion? c) do whatever they think the public will accept as "addressing the issue" that imposes the least constraint on the politcally powerful. remember the "contract with america"? the easy stuff was done. the hard stuff was defered. look at archer's tax bill in the house, the overwhelming majority of the dollar benefit goes to those with the most. at the same time the overwhelming number of distinct benefits go to those near the median income of $34K/yr. so the politcally powerful get their capital gains tax cut and archer can truefully claim that middle-income america is the beneficiary. they aint stupid they aint that ill-informed they are cynical. the first question asked anyone running for office is "can you get the money?"