From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 02:56:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA21440 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoke.marlboro.vt.us (smoke.marlboro.vt.us [198.206.215.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA21435 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 02:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cgull@localhost) by smoke.marlboro.vt.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/cgull) id FAA20971; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707280955.FAA20971@smoke.marlboro.vt.us> From: john hood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: David Nugent CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What string to filter FreeBSD lists? In-Reply-To: <199707241049.UAA00697@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> References: <19970723075000.00233@wasted.bandwidth.org> <199707241049.UAA00697@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under Emacs 19.34.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Nugent writes: > Yep, I've found that ^From is the most reliable method of filtering > with procmail, but it assumes that this line is preserved right into > the mailbox (ie. the envelope arrives intact). This works with the > bulk of mailing list software, and even allows cleanly distinguishing > between private replies and replies to the list. there's better. if you control your delivering sendmail, use sendmail's 'user+mailbox@host' mailbox support in conjunction with FEATURE(local_procmail) in your sendmail.mc to enable procmail as your local mailer. procmail is passed the mailbox name after the + sign as an argument. you can use this information in your .procmailrc. then subscribe to your lists with different mailbox names in your email address. it's been absolutely reliable, except for the people who snarf the wrong address off a mailing list to send out personal party invites. :) --jh -- John Hood cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us Predictably, they all eventually wandered away, rubbing their bruises and brushing mud out of their hair. Some went off to work for the ESA, launching much smaller rockets into low orbits, while others elected to sit on their front porches drinking Jim Beam from the bottle and launching bottle rockets from the empties. [Jordan Hubbard] From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 05:18:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA29340 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA29318 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA25609; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:18:37 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:18:36 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <27367.869961421@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (exucse me I snipped the cc. list) On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Excuse me have you ever visit LA or Harlem? > > Yes, both, and they're excellent arguments for the failure of society > to moderate such forces when they resist such moderation. If it was > your intention to try to give supporting evidence to my position, > you've done a fine job. ;-) Excuse me, homo sapiens has come a long way, and LA may seem pretty bad. But are these areas really failures or areas where we haven't come as far as quickly. LA/Harlem (and there's other places around the world just as bad) are where people have adjusted and live the same tribal lifestyle that humans have lived for thousands of years. I expect in comparison that actually a far sight more civilized than say ancient rome or greece. Or even Saudi Arabia today. At least in LA & Harlem you don't get your head cut off in a public square because you told a stole a piece of bread. You might get shot, but only if you stole it from the wrong person. Is it really a failure then, or just somewhere that hasn't progressed as fast as the cosy cotton-wool environments most of the rest of us live in? Steve -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 06:10:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05048 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA05024; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707281308.JAA08227@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:11:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: ML Duke cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Michael Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <33D97B7E.D1648961@resumes-by-duke.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Oh fuck. Why don't you get a damn clue. He's being overly facetious, mostly at this point to get you to frenzy. YHBT, YHL, HAND. (Translation for the utterly clueless: You Have Been Trolled, You Have Lost, Have A Nice Day.) On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, ML Duke wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Jordan: When you advocate compulsory measures, you are a display of > > > the common belief that others should be forced to do what you want > > > at the point of a gun. > > > > Yeah? What's your point? :) > > > > Jordan > > I found your response difficult to believe, which is to say it > challenged my imagination to actuallypicture someone in my mind who > could say it. The point should be self-evident, but I'll try. > > What is it that you like to do, want to do or enjoy doing that, were one > special interest group or another were to manage to have a law passed > against it, (the point of the gun) that it would cause you distress? > > It is compulsory that we do not kill another human being, that we do not > violate anothers natural property > rights nor interfere in anothers activities as long as that person is > not harming another (and acts of mutual consent do not apply here). > > The above are in keeping with the natural goodness of our natures, not > to say that many do not violate > their own natures on a regular basis. Those would would pass into law > compulsory measures, for > example. > > ML Duke > > Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 06:34:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA06187 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from houseofduck.dyn.ml.org (ts002d19.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA06182 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from shaggy@localhost) by houseofduck.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) id HAA13687; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:34:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:25:02 -0600 (MDT) Organization: Shaggy Enterprises From: Joshua Fielden To: Stephen Roome Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 28-Jul-97 Stephen Roome wrote: >(exucse me I snipped the cc. list) > >On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> > Excuse me have you ever visit LA or Harlem? >> >> Yes, both, and they're excellent arguments for the failure of >society >> to moderate such forces when they resist such moderation. If it was >> your intention to try to give supporting evidence to my position, >> you've done a fine job. ;-) > >Excuse me, homo sapiens has come a long way, and LA may seem pretty >bad. >But are these areas really failures or areas where we haven't come as >far >as quickly. > >LA/Harlem (and there's other places around the world just as bad) are >where people have adjusted and live the same tribal lifestyle that >humans >have lived for thousands of years. I expect in comparison that >actually a >far sight more civilized than say ancient rome or greece. Or even >Saudi >Arabia today. > >At least in LA & Harlem you don't get your head cut off in a public >square >because you told a stole a piece of bread. You might get shot, but >only if >you stole it from the wrong person. > >Is it really a failure then, or just somewhere that hasn't progressed >as >fast as the cosy cotton-wool environments most of the rest of us live >in? > >Steve > >-- >Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. >Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 >WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ > > Whoa. Wow. Reality Check: I was born in cedar's, hospital to the stars, and grew up in West Hollywood. Because of an accelerated program called 'GATE,' I was bussed 45 mins to East LA in order to get a real education. There were three or four accelerated classes and a whole school of "normal kids." My nose was broken for the first time at age 7, by a rock the size of one of my HD's, in an arguments over a kickball game, and I witnessed my first knifing at age 8. This school was K-6. I have witnessed drive-by's where innocent victims got mowed down, and I would have too, if I had not ducked fast enough, in the SF Bay Area. Societaly, I consider these conditions worse than public behandings/headings, because at least with those, you knew up-front what the risks were. Of course, the moral of these stories are: 1) Only travel east of La Cienega to Hollywood or Cantor's Deli 2) *Never* travel down Mission in The City at night. But they still refute the idea that whole parts of our general society are not in serious need of help. -- Joshua Fielden, shag@concentric.net SCSI is *not* magic. There are many technical reasons why it's occasionally nessicary to sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI chain. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 07:10:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA08268 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA08262 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25752 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA16629 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:21:21 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Stephen Roome wrote: : LA/Harlem (and there's other places around the world just as bad) are : where people have adjusted and live the same tribal lifestyle that humans : have lived for thousands of years. I expect in comparison that actually a : far sight more civilized than say ancient rome or greece. Or even Saudi : Arabia today. What in the world is the comparison between Los Angeles, Harlem, and Saudi Arabia? : because you told a stole a piece of bread. You might get shot, but only if : you stole it from the wrong person. Where in the world is this *not* true? : Is it really a failure then, or just somewhere that hasn't progressed as : fast as the cosy cotton-wool environments most of the rest of us live in? And by who's rule are we measuring this "progress?" K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 08:32:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12579 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12572 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA27906; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:32:04 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:32:04 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Stephen Roome wrote: > > : LA/Harlem (and there's other places around the world just as bad) are > : where people have adjusted and live the same tribal lifestyle that humans > : have lived for thousands of years. I expect in comparison that actually a > : far sight more civilized than say ancient rome or greece. Or even Saudi > : Arabia today. > > What in the world is the comparison between Los Angeles, Harlem, and Saudi > Arabia? > > : because you told a stole a piece of bread. You might get shot, but only if > : you stole it from the wrong person. > > Where in the world is this *not* true? > > : Is it really a failure then, or just somewhere that hasn't progressed as > : fast as the cosy cotton-wool environments most of the rest of us live in? > > And by who's rule are we measuring this "progress?" Well, exactly I think that's all I mean though, but probably in a different light. LA/harlem/Northern Ireland may seem bad by our current standards. They may even seem very bad. But as I was saying, ancient rome was apparently a civilised society, being a christian could mean you get thrown to the lions. The argument that these places are some new failure of society to treat some degenerate element is inane. These places just haven't matured at the same rate as everywhere else. Genghis Khan, Vlad the Impaler, Pope whoever of the Catholic Church at the time of the crucades.. These people and their followers were far worse and far more barbaric than some of the worst places on the planet now. Society isn't moving backwards, there are just areas which aren't progressing as fast. In other words, Harlem and LA may be bad, but I'd rather live in either of those two now than anywhere in the 15th Century.. especially as a serf, getting killed by unfair means then was probably the expected way to die! -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 09:23:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15653 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from houseofduck.dyn.ml.org (ts002d19.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15638 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from shaggy@localhost) by houseofduck.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA14259; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:22:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:21:12 -0600 (MDT) Organization: Shaggy Enterprises From: Joshua Fielden To: Stephen Roome Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ancient >rome >was apparently a civilised society, being a christian could mean you >get >thrown to the lions. Throw in Bill Gates and where's the problem? :-) -- Joshua Fielden, shag@concentric.net SCSI is *not* magic. There are many technical reasons why it's occasionally nessicary to sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI chain. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 10:20:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18982 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18919; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:19:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199707281719.KAA18919@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations To: steve@visint.co.uk (Stephen Roome) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ksmm@cybercom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Roome" at Jul 28, 97 04:32:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephen Roome wrote: > In other words, Harlem and LA may be bad, but I'd rather live in either of > those two now than anywhere in the 15th Century.. especially as a serf, > getting killed by unfair means then was probably the expected way to die! disease, malnutrition, little or no heat in winter, rotten food, bad water, no toilet facilites, no waste disposal system, plague.... when it comes to killing people, people dont do as well as "mother nature". imagine a future ebola or hant virus, that works more slowly yet retains its lethality and communicability. (not that people have not tried the best that they could...). jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 14:01:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA02548 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (root@labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02523 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (davidn@local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00342; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:00:08 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199707282100.HAA00342@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM cc: imp@rover.village.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:02:14 EST." <199707251502.KAA04543@compound.east.sun.com> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:00:08 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Um, I would point out that one wouldn't be on an Internet mailing list > unless one were on the Internet. I had access to internet email and was subscribed to internet mailing lists long before I ever had direct access to the internet. This was all handled by the wonders of uucp, acsnet, fidonet gateway software and MX records. > Most computers have nothing to do > with the Internet. There are a large number of email facilities on > mvs, vm, vines, netware, fidonet, uucp, appletalk, or what-have-you. Yep. > My 'majority' figure may become a 'minority' in the not-to-distant > future, but the I'm *guessing* that the majority of email-capable > systems are still not Internetworked. Of course this depends on your > definition of Internetworked, and of email-capable. I'm trying to use > colloquial meanings here. I think the point is spurious, nevertheless. You don't need an IP to host internet mail. What you do need is a gateway and a valid MX receiver for your domain. The address you use still needs to be a valid mailbox@fdqn. In fact, one of the fundamental concepts of the internet itself is the "gateway". It can be described, after all, as a bunch of connected gateways with "leaf" systems hanging off it, whether viewed from a pure ip connection point of view, or from the email system (which relies on working MX records). Regards, David -- David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 14:09:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03210 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03178; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id OAA02357; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:08:33 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id RAA22092; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:08:35 -0400 Received: from compound.east.sun.com by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA13058; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:08:35 -0400 Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.east.sun.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA17786; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:09:40 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:09:40 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM Message-Id: <199707282109.QAA17786@compound.east.sun.com> From: Tony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: ahd@kew.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: bouncing mail from sites without a valid MX/A record References: <199707260544.BAA02854@pandora.hh.kew.com> X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Again, I redirect to chat.] Quoth Drew Derbyshire on Sat, 26 July: : : Actually, this nukes about ~ 20 - 60 % of the SPAM off the top. : Sites don't like their good name used by spammers, so many SPAM : generators just generate random all number domains in .COM. : Hmm. I've received about 198 spam messages in the past 3 months. I don't find *any* tainted by bogus domains. Nary a one. In fact, they all have valid MX records deducible from the headers, although in many cases there is no identifiable mailbox at the corresponding smtp host. The top three sources account for 75% of all spam recieved, and they are Cyber Promotions, Juno, and HotMail. My sample may not be statistically representative, but it is at least *reality-based*. I'd like to learn of more broadly representative studies. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 14:16:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03525 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03515 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id OAA03741; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:14:08 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id RAA22653; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:14:10 -0400 Received: from compound.east.sun.com by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA13317; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:14:10 -0400 Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.east.sun.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA17830; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:15:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:15:15 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM Message-Id: <199707282115.QAA17830@compound.east.sun.com> From: Tony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au Cc: imp@rover.village.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (over)zealous mail bouncing References: <199707251502.KAA04543@compound.east.sun.com> <199707282100.HAA00342@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoth David Nugent on Tue, 29 July: : : I think the point is spurious, nevertheless. You don't need an IP : to host internet mail. What you do need is a gateway and a valid : MX receiver for your domain. Absolutely right, my point was spurious as stated. I think the strongest cogent reformulation I have derived is the similar point that users of mail clients who are unable to control the setting of the MAIL FROM: field used by their gateway may be filtered by such a measure as was originally proposed. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 15:17:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07396 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07390 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA04932; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:17:18 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Roome cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:18:36 BST." Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:17:18 -0700 Message-ID: <4928.870128238@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But are these areas really failures or areas where we haven't come as far > as quickly. I never called them failures, simply evidence of what I consider to be basic, indelible human behavior. To put it another way: > Is it really a failure then, or just somewhere that hasn't progressed as > fast as the cosy cotton-wool environments most of the rest of us live in? That assumes that you credit the cosy cotton-wool environments with being true signs of progress rather than simple temporary anomalies, created through the exertion of trememdeous amounts of energy and balanced on a knife-edge. How long, for example, do you think your rosy civilization in the UK would last if electric power generation abilities were lost and fresh water stopped flowing into your citadels of civilization, and do you know how fragile that infrastructure truly is? :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 15:30:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA08110 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08100 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11237 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:29:59 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:29:59 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bouncing mail from sites without a valid MX/A record In-Reply-To: <199707282109.QAA17786@compound.east.sun.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This raises an interesting question, for me anyway. Once again I've managed to get spam on a new machine, with an e-mail address that I've only ever used to send to the lists. Is this hotmail mob that spam people the same lot that offer free e-mail accounts? And is it possible that they somehow examine all the headers of mail sent to any of their "free" users in order to increase the size of their spam lists? Like, if I send mail to the list and one of the recipients uses hotmail could I then manage to get myself of the spam list? Andrew Perry andrew@shoal.net.au On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Tony Kimball wrote: > Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:09:40 -0500 (CDT) > From: Tony Kimball > To: ahd@kew.com > Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: bouncing mail from sites without a valid MX/A record > > [Again, I redirect to chat.] > > Quoth Drew Derbyshire on Sat, 26 July: > : > : Actually, this nukes about ~ 20 - 60 % of the SPAM off the top. > : Sites don't like their good name used by spammers, so many SPAM > : generators just generate random all number domains in .COM. > : > > Hmm. I've received about 198 spam messages in the past 3 months. I > don't find *any* tainted by bogus domains. Nary a one. In fact, they > all have valid MX records deducible from the headers, although in many > cases there is no identifiable mailbox at the corresponding smtp host. > The top three sources account for 75% of all spam recieved, and they > are Cyber Promotions, Juno, and HotMail. > > My sample may not be statistically representative, but it is at least > *reality-based*. I'd like to learn of more broadly representative > studies. > > > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 15:48:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09329 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09316 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA11355; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:46:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:46:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Tony Kimball cc: ahd@kew.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bouncing mail from sites without a valid MX/A record In-Reply-To: <199707282109.QAA17786@compound.east.sun.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Tony Kimball wrote: > [Again, I redirect to chat.] > > Quoth Drew Derbyshire on Sat, 26 July: > : > : Actually, this nukes about ~ 20 - 60 % of the SPAM off the top. > : Sites don't like their good name used by spammers, so many SPAM Yes, and there is a legal precendent to sue. Prodigy sucessfully forced Cyber Promotions to never include prodigy.com anywhere in the headers of spam. > : generators just generate random all number domains in .COM. > : > > Hmm. I've received about 198 spam messages in the past 3 months. I > don't find *any* tainted by bogus domains. Nary a one. In fact, they > all have valid MX records deducible from the headers, although in many Don't look at the headers, look at the envelope sender. Most mail servers put this into the Return-Path header. I see that 25% of the spam that I received in the last few days would be blocked by a valid MX check. > cases there is no identifiable mailbox at the corresponding smtp host. > The top three sources account for 75% of all spam recieved, and they > are Cyber Promotions, Juno, and HotMail. Those aren't really "sources". They just happened to mentioned in the headers. Juno and Hotmail addresses are oftened mentioned because Juno and Hotmail provides free addresses, that spammers can use to collect responses. I've never seen any spam originate from hotmail or juno. As far as Cyber Promotions, lots of spam mentions savetrees.com, or answerme.com, but never originated from Cyber Promotions. Why? Because spammers buys mailing list from Cyber Promotions, but doesn't want to spring for the extra cost of the Cyber Promotions mail relay service, so spammers steals mail relay service from open mail server. > My sample may not be statistically representative, but it is at least > *reality-based*. I'd like to learn of more broadly representative > studies. Tom From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 15:58:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10036 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10031 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA08380; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:57:46 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:57:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707282257.QAA08380@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Stephen Roome , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <4928.870128238@time.cdrom.com> References: <4928.870128238@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > balanced on a knife-edge. How long, for example, do you think your > rosy civilization in the UK would last if electric power generation > abilities were lost and fresh water stopped flowing into your citadels > of civilization, and do you know how fragile that infrastructure truly > is? :) How does that quote go: "Civilization is 3 meals away from total anarchy." Ie; if the general population felt it there weren't enough food to keep it happy for another 3 meals, all semblances of 'civilization' would soon go out the door. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 19:33:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA26602 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA26581 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA09548; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:02:41 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707290232.MAA09548@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: bouncing mail from sites without a valid MX/A record In-Reply-To: from Andrew Perry at "Jul 29, 97 08:29:59 am" To: andrew@python.shoal.net.au (Andrew Perry) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:02:41 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Perry stands accused of saying: > This raises an interesting question, for me anyway. Once again I've > managed to get spam on a new machine, with an e-mail address that I've > only ever used to send to the lists. Trolling lists, or even just list _output_ is fairly common. > Is this hotmail mob that spam people the same lot that offer free e-mail > accounts? And is it possible that they somehow examine all the headers of > mail sent to any of their "free" users in order to increase the size of > their spam lists? Like, if I send mail to the list and one of the > recipients uses hotmail could I then manage to get myself of the spam > list? I don't believe that hotmail engage in such an activity; they've always been very quick to stamp on spammers using hotmail for any facet of their business. Stupid spammers will often list a hotmail address as return address for their spam because they can set up a free mailbox for every spam they send, read the responses, and ignore the flames. If someone bombs their return address, it's hotmail that suffers, not them. I can't say I love hotmail, but I very much doubt that they're fool enough to enter the spam business. > Andrew Perry -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 22:02:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA08682 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA08677 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA13508 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707290502.WAA13508@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:02:26 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 250 cyclists where arrested in SF and the city is up in arms about the whole issue . So Be Though. Be A Bicyclists!! Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 22:30:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA10795 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA10790 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA10781; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:00:46 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707290530.PAA10781@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? In-Reply-To: <199707290502.WAA13508@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jul 28, 97 10:02:26 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:00:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > 250 cyclists where arrested in SF and the city is up in arms > about the whole issue . Uh, howcome? > So Be Though. Be A Bicyclists!! Wow. We appear to have a candiate for a new password encrytion algorithm. > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 22:50:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA12400 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA12395 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem06.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.36]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA17650; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:49:54 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33DD9F36.56CC@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:43:50 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? References: <199707290502.WAA13508@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > > 250 cyclists where arrested in SF and the city is up in arms > about the whole issue . > > So Be Though. Be A Bicyclists!! > And in the weekend news a deer kicked a hunter to the hospital. (it was absolutely COOL!!) So Be Though..Be a Deer :-) Pedro. > Cheers, > Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 23:05:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13612 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA13607 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00284; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707290605.XAA00284@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Michael Smith cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:00:46 +0930." <199707290530.PAA10781@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:05:12 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am sure that a cyclists from San Francisco, California can explain better. Once a month thousands of cyclists ride thru the City in demonstration that the City is not safe for cyclists . The Major and the police feel that is not safe to be holding such massive demonstration so we have a stand still 8) It can get quite nasty if thousands of cyclists ride thru the city at peak commuters hours. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Michael Smith : > Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > > > 250 cyclists where arrested in SF and the city is up in arms > > about the whole issue . > > Uh, howcome? > > > So Be Though. Be A Bicyclists!! > > Wow. We appear to have a candiate for a new password encrytion algorithm. > > > Amancio > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 23:08:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13829 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA13816 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA11015; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:38:02 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707290608.PAA11015@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? In-Reply-To: <199707290605.XAA00284@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jul 28, 97 11:05:12 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:38:02 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > I am sure that a cyclists from San Francisco, California can explain > better. Once a month thousands of cyclists ride thru the City > in demonstration that the City is not safe for cyclists . Ah, understood. Bummer; I bike a lot. > The Major and the police feel that is not safe to be holding such > massive demonstration so we have a stand still 8) Heh. > It can get quite nasty if thousands of cyclists ride thru the > city at peak commuters hours. This is for the cyclists, or the city? If the latter, then they ought to take it as a hint 8) > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 23:16:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA14426 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14421 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00403; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707290615.XAA00403@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Michael Smith cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:38:02 +0930." <199707290608.PAA11015@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:15:42 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Michael Smith : > This is for the cyclists, or the city? If the latter, then they ought > to take it as a hint 8) The beauty of the conflict is that is for both 8) You see better or safe cycle routes will in theory help commuting congestion;however, till the issue gets resolve both the car commuters and the cyclists will be opposite of the issue. Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 28 23:18:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA14529 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14518 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00420; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707290617.XAA00420@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Pedro Giffuni S," cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:43:50 PDT." <33DD9F36.56CC@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:17:52 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I love it! Did anyone recorded the news? Would love to have it broacasted on the FreeBSD MBone Channel 8) Amancio >From The Desk Of "Pedro Giffuni S," : > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > 250 cyclists where arrested in SF and the city is up in arms > > about the whole issue . > > > > So Be Though. Be A Bicyclists!! > > > And in the weekend news a deer kicked a hunter to the hospital. (it was > absolutely COOL!!) > > So Be Though..Be a Deer :-) > > Pedro. > > > Cheers, > > Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 00:49:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21657 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.ukrv.de (gatekeeper.ukrv.de [193.175.72.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA21650 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gatekeeper.ukrv.de; (5.65/1.1.8.2/17Oct95-0336PM) id AA12148; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:49:18 +0200 Received: from mailhost(193.175.66.33) by gatekeeper.ukrv.de via smap (V1.3-JSC) id sma029535; Tue Jul 29 09:48:51 1997 Received: from merlin.ukrv.de by mailhost.ukrv.de; (5.65/1.1.8.2/08Mar95-0213PM) id AA06235; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:48:51 +0200 Received: by merlin.ukrv.de (4.1/UKRV-Gen PCG 0.1) id AA23814; Tue, 29 Jul 97 09:48:51 +0200 From: Udo Wolter Message-Id: <9707290748.AA23814@merlin.ukrv.de> Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? In-Reply-To: <199707290605.XAA00284@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Jul 28, 97 11:05:12 pm" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:48:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I am sure that a cyclists from San Francisco, California can explain > better. Once a month thousands of cyclists ride thru the City > in demonstration that the City is not safe for cyclists . > > The Major and the police feel that is not safe to be holding such > massive demonstration so we have a stand still 8) > > It can get quite nasty if thousands of cyclists ride thru the > city at peak commuters hours. Can anyone give me a Web-link for it ? It's hard to understand without the full background what's really happened there. Did the police arrest them just because they were too many of them ? I don't think that there's a law about how many cyclists are allowed to ride on the street... Bye, Udo P.S.: A tough cyclist in Berlin. :-) -- Udo Wolter, email: uwp@cs.tu-berlin.de !!! LOW-TECH Page: http://low-tech.home.ml.org !!! From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 01:48:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA25362 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA25357 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA03245 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33DDAE4A.3EEDF63E@star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:48:10 +0000 From: "Amancio Hasty Jr." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01b6C [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PAGE ONE -- S.F. Bike Chaos -- 250 Arrests / 5,000 bikers snarl commute / Drivers, riders exchange blows / City-approved route ignored X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article.cgi?file=MN20246.DTL&directory=/chronicle/archive/1997/07/26 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 02:33:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA28678 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA28673 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA09886; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:33:00 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:33:00 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FTC regulating use of registrations In-Reply-To: <4928.870128238@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > But are these areas really failures or areas where we haven't come as far > > as quickly. > > I never called them failures, simply evidence of what I consider to be > basic, indelible human behavior. To put it another way: > > > Is it really a failure then, or just somewhere that hasn't progressed as > > fast as the cosy cotton-wool environments most of the rest of us live in? > > That assumes that you credit the cosy cotton-wool environments with > being true signs of progress rather than simple temporary anomalies, > created through the exertion of trememdeous amounts of energy and > balanced on a knife-edge. What else is there that could be credited as a sign of progress, the basic nature of (wo)man hasn't changed. We are like tamed animals, and it wouldn't take us long to revert to our neanderthal tendencies. If you disregard our pampered lifestyle (I'm sure the LA lifestyle is pampered) then there really is nothing to distinguish us from cavemen. Is there? > How long, for example, do you think your > rosy civilization in the UK would last if electric power generation > abilities were lost and fresh water stopped flowing into your citadels > of civilization, and do you know how fragile that infrastructure truly > is? :) If "we all pulled together" it could carry on, we could make a difference. But I'm not sure if humanity has reached a point where it could continue effectively. If we couldn't recover then within a hours we'd be a third world economy (I think the UK probably already is actually), and within a decade we'd be back to pre-victorian times. After a few generations it would be the dark/middle ages again. Assuming we couldn't recover that is, but I'm not one to beleive we are that precariously balanced. Anyway, civilizations have fallen before and have fallen harder than that, It got too easy for the Romans, the Greeks the Egyptians and Babylonians and they were conquered by human greed not failure of some system. [ (Good enough reason to throw Bill Gates to the Lions? =) ] Steve. __ Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 07:44:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18086 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18079 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id IAA27840; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:44:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA12542; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:44:24 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:44:23 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Udo Wolter cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? In-Reply-To: <9707290748.AA23814@merlin.ukrv.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Udo Wolter wrote: > > I am sure that a cyclists from San Francisco, California can explain > > better. Once a month thousands of cyclists ride thru the City > > in demonstration that the City is not safe for cyclists . > > > > The Major and the police feel that is not safe to be holding such > > massive demonstration so we have a stand still 8) > > > > It can get quite nasty if thousands of cyclists ride thru the > > city at peak commuters hours. > > Can anyone give me a Web-link for it ? It's hard to understand without > the full background what's really happened there. Did the police arrest > them just because they were too many of them ? I don't think that there's > a law about how many cyclists are allowed to ride on the street... As a cyclist, I would say it is more like the police arrested them because they can be a rowdy bunch of jerks who just want to be pests. OTOH, I can be cynical and I'm nowhere near SF. http://cnn.com/US/9707/26/briefs/biker.protest.ap/index.html http://cnn.com/TRAVEL/NEWS/9707/24/sanfran.bikes.ap/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 09:29:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26676 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.macromedia.com (host-159-82.macromedia.com [207.88.159.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26670 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.macromedia.com (colossus.macromedia.com [207.3.38.189]) by colossus.macromedia.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA08541; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:28:18 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:28:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Kurt Weiske To: Udo Wolter cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? In-Reply-To: <9707290748.AA23814@merlin.ukrv.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Critical Mass, the bicyclist group in San Francisco, rides once a month through rush-hour traffic to block the commute traffic and raise people's consciousness concerning bicycling, getting out of your car, &tc. - not just to make people aware of bike safety. The riders last week deviated from the "approved", secured route, and generally tried to make a nuisance of themselves. One group tried to ride onto a freeway and onto the Oakland-Bay bridge! On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Udo Wolter wrote: > > I am sure that a cyclists from San Francisco, California can explain > > better. Once a month thousands of cyclists ride thru the City > > in demonstration that the City is not safe for cyclists . > > > > The Major and the police feel that is not safe to be holding such > > massive demonstration so we have a stand still 8) > > > > It can get quite nasty if thousands of cyclists ride thru the > > city at peak commuters hours. > > Can anyone give me a Web-link for it ? It's hard to understand without > the full background what's really happened there. Did the police arrest > them just because they were too many of them ? I don't think that there's > a law about how many cyclists are allowed to ride on the street... > > Bye, > Udo > > P.S.: A tough cyclist in Berlin. :-) > -- > Udo Wolter, email: uwp@cs.tu-berlin.de > !!! LOW-TECH Page: http://low-tech.home.ml.org !!! > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 09:33:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27142 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (adm@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27137 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) id LAA20883; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:32:02 -0500 (CDT) Posted-Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:32:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma020755; Tue, 29 Jul 97 11:31:02 -0500 Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA19164; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:31:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tundra.winternet.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:31:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Kyle Mestery To: "Pedro Giffuni S," cc: Amancio Hasty , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? In-Reply-To: <33DD9F36.56CC@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Pedro Giffuni S, wrote: > > > And in the weekend news a deer kicked a hunter to the hospital. (it was > absolutely COOL!!) > Thats nothing, here is the epitomy of stupidity. On Monday a woman in Fargo, ND, caused a 4 car accident in a McDonalds drivethru. She broke a motorcyclists leg, and totalled 4 cars. Talk about "This is my McDonalds." =) Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Network Systems Group 7600 Boone Ave. N., Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 mesteka@anubis.network.com, mestery@winternet.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 14:21:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13740 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13732 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA19802 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:21:20 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06956; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:17:25 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970729231725.LH34533@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:17:25 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: How Many Bicyclists Does It Take, To Drive The Point??? References: <9707290748.AA23814@merlin.ukrv.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Kurt Weiske on Jul 29, 1997 09:28:18 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Kurt Weiske wrote: > The riders last week deviated from the "approved", secured route, and > generally tried to make a nuisance of themselves. One group tried to ride > onto a freeway and onto the Oakland-Bay bridge! Good hint. Reserve them one of the six lanes. The other five ones are probably enough for the cars. Why are only cars allowed to pass the Bay? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 14:21:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13761 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13754 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA19805 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:21:26 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA06908; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:54:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970729225445.VL49298@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:54:45 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: scsi changer and adaptech 1542... References: <199707171926.PAA21854@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <13300.869174229@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <13300.869174229@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Jul 17, 1997 14:17:09 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > What John simply means is that we're working to enhance the > fundamental dynamism of our position by right-sizing [...] > In other words, don't sweat it OK? :-) You forgot to mention that we'll make all this ``client-server''. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 14:21:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13782 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13760 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA19808 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:21:29 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06923; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:04:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970729230402.HT63113@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:04:02 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary References: <199707180436.WAA16329@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199707180510.OAA04561@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199707180510.OAA04561@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Jul 18, 1997 14:40:49 +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > As one of the many who were hapless slaves of another operating > system, or at best amazed onlookers at the time, may I suggest that on > this anniversary those of you who _were_ involved (and you know who > you are) hoist a receptacle of your favorite beverage in thanks to > yourselves and your fellows. Ok, i just filled a glass of wine... My 386BSD 0.1 installation floppies are still around on a shelf. I've talked with Hellmuth Michaelis last weekend, he's still got his 0.0 setup somewhere (i deleted my floppies to gain space for 0.1 -- blech!). I know David Greenman still owns a set of 0.0 floppies. Still by its time, the system (0.0) amazed me with its instability. :) I've been working with Interactive Unix before on the same machine, and BSD looked a lot more promising as an experimental platform. Well, despite of the many crashes in these times, i think i never even lost a file -- and that was great, compared to the ``robustness'' (no!) of Interactive's S51K filesystem. Later on, we've started to use 0.1-pk0.2.4 in the company even. This machine got finally equipped with an IDE and an ESDI drive, which required to hack the wdc(4) driver to cope with two controllers, something that was basically unusual in the PC world by this time. It's even possible that this machine was the very first 386BSD machine running such a configuration. (I think Wilko Bulte came up with a similar setup shortly later.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 15:09:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16188 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16182 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28529 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:23:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199707292123.RAA28529@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary In-Reply-To: <19970729230402.HT63113@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Jul 29, 97 11:04:02 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:23:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Ok, i just filled a glass of wine... My 386BSD 0.1 installation > floppies are still around on a shelf. I've talked with Hellmuth > Michaelis last weekend, he's still got his 0.0 setup somewhere (i > deleted my floppies to gain space for 0.1 -- blech!). I know David > Greenman still owns a set of 0.0 floppies. I grabbed the red binder labeled "386 bsd" off the top shelf, expecting it to be full of printouts and mail about the 0.0 to 0.1 days. I figured I could find some good quotes in there - but like Joerg I've foolishly reused it for something else. However, I see that we ordered a motherboard and assorted pieces on August 2, 1992 to run 386BSD exclusively by tearing apart a Sony NEWS system and using the pieces to build a bsd system. That system is still online with no changes other than newer disks and a new e-net card - ping hda.com and you'll be pinging it. Never booted an MS OS. We've run on nothing else in house since. This is probably one of the oldest systems purchased exclusively for *bsd. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 16:18:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20327 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20294; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.6/8.6.12) id IAA04370; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:47:57 +0930 (CST) From: grog@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <199707292317.IAA04370@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary In-Reply-To: <19970729230402.HT63113@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Jul 29, 97 11:04:02 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:47:57 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > As Michael Smith wrote: > >> As one of the many who were hapless slaves of another operating >> system, or at best amazed onlookers at the time, may I suggest that on >> this anniversary those of you who _were_ involved (and you know who >> you are) hoist a receptacle of your favorite beverage in thanks to >> yourselves and your fellows. > > Ok, i just filled a glass of wine... My 386BSD 0.1 installation > floppies are still around on a shelf. I've talked with Hellmuth > Michaelis last weekend, he's still got his 0.0 setup somewhere (i > deleted my floppies to gain space for 0.1 -- blech!). I know David > Greenman still owns a set of 0.0 floppies. > > Still by its time, the system (0.0) amazed me with its instability. :) > I've been working with Interactive Unix before on the same machine, > and BSD looked a lot more promising as an experimental platform. You should qualify the term "BSD" in that sentence. I wasn't using 386BSD at the time: I was using BSD/386 version 0.3.1. You can read about my experience with that OS in the August 1992 edition of iX. Basically, I was also using Inactive UNIX, and I was amazed how much *better* BSD/386 was than Inactive. Of course, things have changed. I still have a subscription to BSD/OS (same OS--for those who don't know, they changed the name at some point), and recently version 3.0 arrived. I haven't installed it--I'm running FreeBSD on my systems. I still think that BSD/OS is more stable, but the difference is diminishing, and it's lagging severely with the features. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 17:11:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23455 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23446 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10001; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707300012.RAA10001@implode.root.com> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:04:02 +0200." <19970729230402.HT63113@uriah.heep.sax.de> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:12:26 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Ok, i just filled a glass of wine... My 386BSD 0.1 installation >floppies are still around on a shelf. I've talked with Hellmuth >Michaelis last weekend, he's still got his 0.0 setup somewhere (i >deleted my floppies to gain space for 0.1 -- blech!). I know David >Greenman still owns a set of 0.0 floppies. Heh...*I* didn't know I still had the 0.0 floppy set, but I just checked and you're right! I still have them...amazing. The fixit disk must not have come into existence until 0.1 since all I have is a set of 6 floppies plus a "distfs" floppy. 386BSD is such a distant memory now... The 0.0 install was so crude and so difficult...Bill once told me that anyone who was able to successfully install 0.0 deserved a special prize. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 17:15:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23719 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pandora.hh.kew.com (ahd@kendra.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23708 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ahd@localhost) by pandora.hh.kew.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04770; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:15:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Drew Derbyshire Message-Id: <199707300015.UAA04770@pandora.hh.kew.com> To: andrew@python.shoal.net.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: HOTMAIL.COM, JUNO.COM, etc.... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Very few sites, public access or otherwise, like their users to spam because it makes the entire site look bad and get black listed. Hotmail.com is not simply a SPAM site (my sister has used it for a year). However, the cheaper it is is define a user id on a site, the more likely it is is that a spammer will use it. Hotmail and Juno, being free, makes them easy targets. Most of the SPAM I've seen recently has been from either large sites (usally forged) or totally bogus names -- Earthlink, CIS, AOL, ATT, and Hotmail seem popular for return addresses this month. This could be because it is hard to ban such legitmate large sites -- I lose two family family members if I ban ATT, one if I ban Hotmail, and one if I ban Prodigy. (And this doesn't count friends, FreeBSD hackers, etc.) I actually accept mail only from such large sites when the mail comes from a relay within the domain, and I also don't let their relays send me mail from third party sites. Both rules cut down on the SPAM, since mismatches indicate forged mail. (These rules required a sendmail source hack ... *sigh*) -ahd- -- Drew Derbyshire Internet: ahd@kew.com Kendra Electronic Wonderworks Telephone: 617-279-9812 "If you feed [UUPC for the Mac] after midnight, and it gets nasty and shreds your living room furniture, that's your problem, not mine. ;-)" - Dave Platt From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 17:20:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24035 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24021 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem07.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.37]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA18561 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:21:52 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33DEA3C8.E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:15:36 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Remember intellivision? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk No intellivision fan would forgive me if I didn't post this address: http://www.webcom.com/makingit/intellivision/download.shtml those were the wonderful years...:) Perhaps the MAC version runs with executor? Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 19:09:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA29558 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA29553 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02896; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707300209.TAA02896@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:04:02 +0200." <19970729230402.HT63113@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:09:15 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chucks... About this time I sent out patches for X11R5 to work with the ET4000 and 386bsd 0.1. The xstone results was somewhere around 8k xstones or so. Here I am now happily typing away on my PPro and matrox millenium . The system benchmarks over 1 million xstones --- not bad 8) If feels Greaaat! Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 23:20:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA12238 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA12230 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA26144 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:20:44 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA09614; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:16:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970730081656.UG42057@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:16:56 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary References: <19970729230402.HT63113@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199707300012.RAA10001@implode.root.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199707300012.RAA10001@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Jul 29, 1997 17:12:26 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As David Greenman wrote: > Heh...*I* didn't know I still had the 0.0 floppy set, but I just > checked and you're right! You once told so... > I still have them...amazing. The fixit disk must not have > come into existence until 0.1. I don't think so. I think a fixit floppy was already a FreeBSD invention. I've just checked, even FreeBSD 1.0 didn't have it: j@uriah 92% ls /cdrom/floppies/ cpio.flp finstall.txt kcopy_ah.flp filesyst.flp install.txt kcopy_bt.flp > The 0.0 install was so crude and so difficult...Bill once told me > that anyone who was able to successfully install 0.0 deserved a > special prize. :-) I don't frankly remember. But i know i got it installed somehow. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 29 23:55:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13969 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA13963 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14055; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707300656.XAA14055@implode.root.com> To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another BSD anniversary In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:16:56 +0200." <19970730081656.UG42057@uriah.heep.sax.de> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:56:57 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I still have them...amazing. The fixit disk must not have >> come into existence until 0.1. > >I don't think so. I think a fixit floppy was already a FreeBSD >invention. I've just checked, even FreeBSD 1.0 didn't have it: It was Bill's invention and definately existed in 386BSD 0.1. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 00:52:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA16836 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu (devnull@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16830 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id DAA15637; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:53:16 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 03:53:16 -0400 Message-Id: <199707300753.DAA15637@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: ahd@kew.com CC: andrew@python.shoal.net.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199707300015.UAA04770@pandora.hh.kew.com> (message from Drew Derbyshire on Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:15:32 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: HOTMAIL.COM, JUNO.COM, etc.... x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: Save energy: Drive a smaller shell. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:15:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Drew Derbyshire However, the cheaper it is is define a user id on a site, the more likely it is is that a spammer will use it. Hotmail and Juno, being free, makes them easy targets. Are you sure juno is free? I thought you paid like $5 a month. Most of the SPAM I've seen recently has been from either large sites (usally forged) or totally bogus names -- Earthlink, CIS, AOL, ATT, and Hotmail seem popular for return addresses this month. This could be because it is hard to ban such legitmate large sites -- I lose two family family members if I ban ATT, one if I ban Hotmail, and one if I ban Prodigy. (And this doesn't count friends, FreeBSD hackers, etc.) I actually accept mail only from such large sites when the mail comes from a relay within the domain, and I also don't let their relays send me mail from third party sites. Both rules cut down on the SPAM, since mismatches indicate forged mail. (These rules required a sendmail source hack ... *sigh*) So what happens if I set my address to devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, but I send the message from some random dialup of some random ISP in Hawaii? Doesn't that mean my mail will get lost? From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 02:54:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA21953 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lituus.fr (lituussun.lituus.fr [195.25.51.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA21948 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.25.51.10] (stephane.lituus.fr [195.25.51.10]) by lituus.fr (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA05951 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:52:33 +0100 (WET DST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:54:20 +0200 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: stephane@e2c.com (Stephane Legrand) Subject: Micro$oft doesn't want to include Sun JFC Libraries ! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Big brother is attacking :(( The original article is on "http://www.computerworld.com/news/news_articles/970728moritz.html" ----- Maritz: Why Microsoft won't ship Sun's Java Class Libraries Microsoft Corp. last week indicated that it would essentially block efforts to make Java a cross-platform development language, stating that it wouldn't ship Sun Microsystems, Inc.'s Java Foundation Class Libraries (JFC). Computerworld senior editor Carol Sliwa caught up with Paul Maritz, Microsoft group vice president, at a company reception in Seattle and asked him to explain the software giant's Java stance. CW: There's nothing in the license that requires you to ship those JFCs with Internet Explorer? Maritz: Correct. CW: Is that a contentious issue? Maritz: No. The only reason I brought it up is just that some people like to play hard and fast with the truth, and they like to say, 'Look, these JFC class libraries are going to be a standard because everybody has to ship them. Even Microsoft has to ship them.' And that's not the case. We were very careful when we did the deal to say that we could have the option of shipping them, but we do not have to include them in Windows. CW: Is there some reason you wouldn't want to ship them? Is there something inferior about them? Maritz: No. We don't want to put further bloat on top of the system. We think that basically there isn't a lot of end-user value in them. And Sun's trying to establish them as basically their platform. It's a competing operating system. CW: Do you feel your Application Foundation Class Libraries (AFC) are superior to their JFCs? Maritz: No. AFCs ... make it easier to write apps. But our real strategy is J/Direct. So our answer to JFC is not AFC. It's J/Direct. CW: It sounds like Microsoft is resentful at Sun for taking a dictatorial role. Maritz: The reason we brought it up is Sun likes to blur these two things together. They like to blur the notion of Java the language and Java the class libraries. They'd like to package them all into that concept. We're just saying, 'Hey, there is a difference between the two. Let's be clear on that.' " CW: Do you think you're going to end up fragmenting the language even more? Maritz: Not the language. You're making the mistake. You're falling into their mind-set -- [ignoring] the difference between Java the language from Java the class libraries. CW: But in the end result, a network manager will have to make sure he has both sets of class libraries. Maritz: Let me ask you this question: The fact that you can call Windows [application programming interfaces] from C++, did that splinter C++? It did not. It's the same issue. CW: But if Java's promise is that it'll be a cross-platform language -- Maritz: No. No. Sun's trying to make it that. CW: But say there's an electronic-commerce application that somebody wants to run cross-platform, and that's why they picked Java. And they use the JFCs to write it. Maritz: Good luck. CW: It's not going to run in Internet Explorer. Maritz: It may or may not. But the point is, that's Sun's problem. It's not our problem. CW: Does it end up being companies' problems, too? Are you saying they're foolish for buying into the theory that there can ever be cross-platform language? Maritz: No. We're saying it's no different from any other cross-platform [strategy]. This isn't the first one -- [there was] CBT, Appware, etc. We're just saying that, 'Hey, you should realize that when you're doing that, you're dependent upon Sun to get it to work.' CW: But if you bought into the JFCs, then you wouldn't be in this particular case. If you shipped JFCs, you'd help foster the idea of cross-platform. Maritz: And I don't want to ship another operating system on top of our operating system and burden every copy of Windows with all of that extra weight. CW: Do you agree that it makes developers have to make choices and it makes them have to do more work and it makes companies have to install both sets of classes? So in the end, it makes life difficult for everyone, doesn't it? Maritz: But we think that that's reality, because you either get this thing to become a heavyweight thing, in which case it's going to perform badly. Or you have to make it something very small. So we're not trying to be parties to perpetuating the myth. by Carol Sliwa ----- --> http://www.lituus.fr/stephane/ - To save the Internet, stop using Micro$oft softwares NOW ! - Do you want a REAL OS ? -> http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 06:25:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA00211 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.iastate.edu (cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA00200 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from popeye.cs.iastate.edu (popeye.cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.4]) by cs.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA23349; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:25:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (ghelmer@localhost) by popeye.cs.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA28588; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:25:25 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: popeye.cs.iastate.edu: ghelmer owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:25:24 -0500 (CDT) From: Guy Helmer To: James Seng cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: security hole in FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970730223202.0070ef8c@student.anu.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Redirected to chat...) On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, James Seng wrote: > I have not heard of any request for the use UUCP from my users nor is my > UUCP binaries been used in the last few years...I think the time when lease > line is expensive, when university work with 9,600bps (wow) connection and > when UUCP rules the earth is over...we have to let it go and look forward. *8) It was a nice surprise six years ago when I provisioned a 56Kb digital circuit from USWest and its monthly cost was 1/3 of the monthly cost of the 9600-baud analog leased line it replaced. I wouldn't be too surprised if that 56Kb line has now been replaced by a higher-speed frame relay circuit for not much more money... UUCP has its (dwindling) place, but most people want live connections for their web browser :-) Guy Helmer, Computer Science Graduate Student - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu Iowa State University http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 06:40:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA01046 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01039 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spork@localhost) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07023; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:42:40 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: "Joel N. Weber II" cc: ahd@kew.com, andrew@python.shoal.net.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HOTMAIL.COM, JUNO.COM, etc.... In-Reply-To: <199707300753.DAA15637@mescaline.gnu.ai.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The thing that confuses me about the ton of spam I get from at&t, earthlink, etc. is the fact that with all the resources these people have, they cannot hack sendmail in such a way that it refuses to accept more than "x" number of messages in "x" number of minutes from one dialup node... As I recall, there is a utility available from news that looks for excessive posts. It seems that with mail one could even see from the maillog when someone has launched a spam. It seems something like swatch could look for an event like that and notify someone with the ability to nuke the account... Who's on the crack? Me or them? Charles On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Joel N. Weber II wrote: > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:15:32 -0400 (EDT) > From: Drew Derbyshire > > However, the cheaper it is is define a user id on a site, the more > likely it is is that a spammer will use it. Hotmail and Juno, being > free, makes them easy targets. > > Are you sure juno is free? I thought you paid like $5 a month. > > Most of the SPAM I've seen recently has been from either large > sites (usally forged) or totally bogus names -- Earthlink, CIS, > AOL, ATT, and Hotmail seem popular for return addresses this month. > This could be because it is hard to ban such legitmate large sites > -- I lose two family family members if I ban ATT, one if I ban > Hotmail, and one if I ban Prodigy. (And this doesn't count friends, > FreeBSD hackers, etc.) > > I actually accept mail only from such large sites when the mail > comes from a relay within the domain, and I also don't let their > relays send me mail from third party sites. Both rules cut down > on the SPAM, since mismatches indicate forged mail. (These rules > required a sendmail source hack ... *sigh*) > > So what happens if I set my address to devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, but > I send the message from some random dialup of some random ISP in Hawaii? > > Doesn't that mean my mail will get lost? > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 07:31:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA04172 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zafu.bbn.com (ZAFU.BBN.COM [192.1.50.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04166 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 07:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbn.com (DROCKWELL.BBN.COM [128.89.31.139]) by zafu.bbn.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id KAA07679; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707301431.KAA07679@zafu.bbn.com> To: spork cc: "Joel N. Weber II" , ahd@kew.com, andrew@python.shoal.net.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HOTMAIL.COM, JUNO.COM, etc.... In-reply-to: Message from spork . X-face: &R'hN{mZu#r@8b_JU\bn"!fYpP{?5k4p/(|]?.2'6;>Dc9}~t*vY=/#-:"63ya.%)%o`Kv$ u&'Ff5k&n[}QC;j7YYsR5Hl]G"E:*9Zmw;dx[sw&9Tmx_PB/7B`RdFW;#@49hJU&kW+J"<[`9^?.dQ 3]L$zK,4'=tThX$wC!M\`e*@1y Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:31:31 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 30 Jul, spork wrote: > The thing that confuses me about the ton of spam I get from at&t, > earthlink, etc. is the fact that with all the resources these people have, > they cannot hack sendmail in such a way that it refuses to accept more > than "x" number of messages in "x" number of minutes from one dialup > node... It's probably not lots of messages, it's one message with lots of recipients. The addresses are in the envelope, not in the message, so they're just "RCPT TO:<>" lines in the conversation. Dennis Rockwell dennis@bbn.com Bolt Beranek & Newman Systems & Technologies +1-617-873-5745 Cambridge, MA +1-617-873-6091 (Fax) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 10:06:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA15886 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA15860 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id KAA12699; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:59:52 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199707301659.KAA12699@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD really a project? (introduction to WISE) To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (Pedro Giffuni) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:59:50 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <33D977F7.77DB@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> from "Pedro Giffuni" at Jul 25, 97 09:08:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Pedro Giffuni recently commented, with respect to a WWW-based project manager: > I don't consider FreeBSD a project because, technically speaking, a > project has precisely defined it's start and it's ending dates. The > initiation of the FreeBSD project evidently existed, but the goals seem > very generic, and we don't really want this end. In purely bureaucratic > linings, FreeBSD wouldn't be considered a project. True, but "The FreeBSD Project" has created a number of "projects" in the past. Each "release" of FreeBSD is really a project in it's own right, with ongoing development on the -current branch. Once a release is started, it typically gets a number of changes that are then applied back to -current; these are typically bugfixes. >From a source code control standpoint, CVS is quite good at this. The model adopted by FreeBSD has been used by a number of commercial users I am familiar with, including my previous employer. > This makes me think we would have to do modifications on this software > to help in the purpose of enhancing FreeBSD's development (was Jordan > suggesting something like this when someone proposed to shoot him? :-) > ). Anyway, we should test this... Perhaps not. If this is basically a problem tracking and reporting system, I don't really think we would have to make changes. Whenever a new release is undertaken, say a 2.2.5 or 3.0, a "project" for that release would be created. The project would be closed out when a superceding release comes out -- 2.2.2 closes 2.2.1, etc. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 10:33:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18589 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pandora.hh.kew.com (ahd@kendra.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18574 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ahd@localhost) by pandora.hh.kew.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA03773; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:32:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Drew Derbyshire Message-Id: <199707301732.NAA03773@pandora.hh.kew.com> To: ahd@kew.com, devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Re: HOTMAIL.COM, JUNO.COM, etc.... Cc: andrew@python.shoal.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu Wed Jul 30 03:52:54 1997 > However, the cheaper it is is define a user id on a site, the more > likely it is is that a spammer will use it. Hotmail and Juno, being > free, makes them easy targets. > > Are you sure juno is free? I thought you paid like $5 a month. Dunno. I do know HotMail is free. > I actually accept mail only from such large sites when the mail > comes from a relay within the domain, and I also don't let their > relays send me mail from third party sites. Both rules cut down > on the SPAM, since mismatches indicate forged mail. (These rules > required a sendmail source hack ... *sigh*) > > So what happens if I set my address to devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu, but > I send the message from some random dialup of some random ISP in Hawaii? > > Doesn't that mean my mail will get lost? If you use my little hack, no it will not get lost. Rather: If the ISP isn't on my short list of untrusted domains, it is accepted normally. If the ISP _is_ on my list, then your sender adress "devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu" will get a standard bounce message explaining that mail from the ISP's relays must have the ISP's domain name in the sender address. (This assumes your ISP's mailer does the right thing with 571 errors from the remote SMTP site.) Note too that mail from a mailing list should also usually work, since the envelope sender is normally changed to the address of the mailing list bounce address. So a CIS post to FreeBsd-chat should still reach me, with a sender envelope of FreeBSD.org. The correct thing to do, BTW, is to use a sender address of your ISP and a From: and/or Reply-To: address of devnull@gnu.ai.mit.edu. Not that anyone bothers, including me. :-) Someone else asked if I'll share my hack, and I will, if ever get the comments in it cleaned up. -- Drew Derbyshire Internet: ahd@kew.com Kendra Electronic Wonderworks Telephone: 617-279-9812 "The bug is mightier than the fix." - Cyrano deBuggerac From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 10:36:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18749 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18741 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id NAA25627 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:35:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id NAA25826 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:35:59 -0400 (EDT) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: HOTMAIL.COM, JUNO.COM, etc.... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:42:40 EDT." Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:35:58 -0400 Message-ID: <25824.870284158@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk spork wrote in message ID : > The thing that confuses me about the ton of spam I get from at&t, > earthlink, etc. is the fact that with all the resources these people have, And why UUNet claim that they do not have enough resources to track down the AdultSights spammer that is now (ab)using their dialins to flood USENET with EMP. *sigh* There was enough trouble getting them kicked off Bell Atlantic Internet Service (which actually involved shutting down some peering sessions with BAIS to show them that they don't belong on USENET unless they take spam seriously), and now UUNet, people who should know better, are housing them? GRRRRRRRRRRR If you look at http://www.news.erols.com/feedinfo/ you'll notice an article volum of 850k yesterday. That's up 200% in under a year, and 50% in 24 hours. (It was about 600k the day before). The really sad bit is that the actual no. of ``signal'' articles has remained about constant. The 600k/day increase since last year is just spam and the associated cancels. Which is likely to get worse before it gets better, as apparently Cyberpromo have a USENET spammer which resends the spam when it sees the last round was cancelled. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 10:41:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19245 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19236 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id NAA26487; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id NAA27385; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:41:02 -0400 (EDT) To: Vincent Poy cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: security hole in FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:45:49 PDT." Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:41:02 -0400 Message-ID: <27383.870284462@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ moved to chat ] Vincent Poy wrote in message ID : > I know. I mean Nate and Jordan has been in this thing for atleast > twice as long as I have. I'm only 23 years old now. I'm 25 > Jordan, Nate and the rest of the FreeBSD core team have been > designing Unix from the start from what Jordan told me back in the > FreeBSD 1.0 Gamma days. Actually, not true :) I didn't even know about FreeBSD until '93 or so, and only got access to my first freebsd box (thud.cdrom.com at that time) when it was `testing' the early versions of was to become 2.0 release. > Unless everyone is Albert Einstein here. You mean you *HAVEN'T* turned in your paper on why e != mc^2 for some values of e? :-) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 10:52:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19928 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19923 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp12.monmouth.com [205.164.221.44]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA19348; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id NAA16509 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:51:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199707301751.NAA16509@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Sysadmin levels today? To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199707301449.IAA04613@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Jul 30, 97 08:49:12 am" Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Re: the current state of the industry: > Ahh, but you assume that we haven't ever seen [name withheld] before. > Unfortunately, his behavior is 'typical', in that he wants us to do all > his research and work for him, rather than him spending the time to do > his own work. He also shows a complete lack of interest in finding out > solutions to his own problems. > > I've dealt with him too many times over the last 2 years to have > anything but pity on any company he works for, since he will require > hand-holding and doesn't do anything on his own. > > Nate > Nate: You probably don't have time to read this so you can blow it off. Ignore the flame... I'm just venting. I'm redirecting to -chat. Isn't the above the current state of the business. I see a problem in the current state of the the art in Sysadmin-hood. I just went on a job interview this morning (headhunter) where I was asked if I know how to tune a kernel. Isn't that Intro to Sysadmin type stuff... remove unneeded devices, check vmstat, SAR, etc... I used to do Sysadmin training and I was shocked that people are screening Admin types with a simple question like that. Boy, I'm tired of watching the CNE, MSCNE types around work be unable to fix stuff without forty phone calls to tech support. Is the Sun/SCO/AIX certification process any better than Novell's paper CNEs? Is this just a $$$ generator for the company doing the certification and Drake testing? Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 10:58:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20316 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20301 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp12.monmouth.com [205.164.221.44]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA20385; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id NAA16540 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:58:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199707301758.NAA16540@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: security hole in FreeBSD To: ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu (Guy Helmer) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from Guy Helmer at "Jul 30, 97 08:25:24 am" Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > UUCP has its (dwindling) place, but most people want live connections for > their web browser :-) > > Guy Helmer, Computer Science Graduate Student - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu > Iowa State University http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer > > And the dialup line and dhcp based @home cable connection here suffice for those but they won't allow inbound mail to user@lakewood.com unless I have them all be popclients off another machine. With uucp one uucp connection supports all the user mail. I guess it's not the most common use -- but it works until SMTP could handle the dhcp based address. ($15/month for ppp and shell access for my ISP gives my wife and I seperate mailboxes on my machine over uucp. With any other option we'd need seperate ISP accounts or have to pay for a commercial account at $100+ per month) Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 11:46:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA23961 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA23931 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem17.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.47]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19505; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:43:13 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33DFA5EB.1766@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:36:59 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD really a project? (introduction to WISE) References: <199707301659.KAA12699@xmission.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC wrote: > > Pedro Giffuni recently commented, with respect to a > WWW-based project manager: > ... > > Perhaps not. If this is basically a problem tracking and reporting > system, I don't really think we would have to make changes. Whenever > a new release is undertaken, say a 2.2.5 or 3.0, a "project" for that > release would be created. The project would be closed out when a > superceding release comes out -- 2.2.2 closes 2.2.1, etc. > One thing I have always wanted to know are what are the objectives behing each individual release..For example, what was so critical about 3.0 that deserved that great step in the numbering? It had to be something as drastic as the 4.3BSD to 4.4BSD update, but normal users (like me have no way of knowing what will follow or if there really is a "master plan" to rule the world. Of course CVS is great, but it doesn't tell this type of things, nor does it report the state of the project. Pedro. > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 12:06:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25513 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toth.ferginc.com (toth.ferginc.com [205.139.23.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25494 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by toth.ferginc.com (You/Wish) with SMTP id PAA06441; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Posted-Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:04:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Branson Matheson X-Sender: branson@toth.hq.ferg.com Reply-To: Branson Matheson To: Bill Pechter cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: <199707301751.NAA16509@i4got.lakewood.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Bill Pechter wrote: > I see a problem in the current state of the the art in Sysadmin-hood. > I just went on a job interview this morning (headhunter) where I was > asked if I know how to tune a kernel. heh ... there are two ways that I evaluate prospective Sysadmins here. One is to use the designations and qualities stipulated in the SAGE Job Descriptions. ( http://www.usenix.org/sage/jobs/jobs-descriptions.html ) This is a good baseline to use although definately not all inclusive. The other way is my phone questions list that I use to screen prospective SA's. ( http://www.ferginc.com/~branson/phone.questions.html ) These questions are not in any particular order... and many are designed to promote the applicant to reply with a question. ME: "What scsi ID is the controller on a scsi chain" THEM: "What architecture.. Sun is at 7 on single ended, SGI is at 0 single ended ... PC's can be reassigned at the card etc.." I have compiled these from those given by Michelle Crab and from the System Administration Handbook by nemeth et al. If you have others that you can suggest ... they are always welcome. My favorite question to date, that is most frequently hmmm'd on is: "Name the fields in order in a standard password file" It is a good quickie to get somone who is clueless out of the loop. I also HIGHLY recommend the book mentioned above and the USENIX and SAGE orginazations. - branson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Branson Matheson " If you are falling off of a mountain, System Administrator You may as well try to fly." Ferguson Enterprises - Delenn, Mimbari Ambassador ( $statements = ) !~ /Corporate Opinion/; From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 15:02:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07259 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA07250 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:02:39 -0700 (PDT) From: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Message-Id: <199707302202.PAA07250@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from tpc-pc1 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:50:46 +1200 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: TV Production Centre, Massey University To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:50:31 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: security hole in FreeBSD Reply-to: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Priority: normal References: <3.0.32.19970730223202.0070ef8c@student.anu.edu.au> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Guy Helmer wrote: > It was a nice surprise six years ago when I provisioned a 56Kb > digital circuit from USWest and its monthly cost was 1/3 of the > monthly cost of the 9600-baud analog leased line it replaced. I > wouldn't be too surprised if that 56Kb line has now been replaced by > a higher-speed frame relay circuit for not much more money... Must be nice to live in the US! :-) Remember the Internet != Domestic US and In some parts of the world data lines are still very expensive. Dialup continues to have it's place, and over a dialup link UUCP is the most efficient method of transfer for bulk news & mail. -- C. -- Craig Harding Acting Director, Massey University Television Production Centre "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 16:07:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11088 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.MCESTATE.COM (vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM [207.211.200.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA11078; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by mail.MCESTATE.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA15611; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:06:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Vincent Poy To: Gary Palmer cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: security hole in FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <27383.870284462@orion.webspan.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Gary Palmer wrote: =)[ moved to chat ] =) =)Vincent Poy wrote in message ID =): =)> I know. I mean Nate and Jordan has been in this thing for atleast =)> twice as long as I have. I'm only 23 years old now. =) =)I'm 25 Sorry about the generalization. =)> Jordan, Nate and the rest of the FreeBSD core team have been =)> designing Unix from the start from what Jordan told me back in the =)> FreeBSD 1.0 Gamma days. =) =)Actually, not true :) I didn't even know about FreeBSD until '93 or =)so, and only got access to my first freebsd box (thud.cdrom.com at =)that time) when it was `testing' the early versions of was to become =)2.0 release. True, but atleast you made a lot of contributions to FreeBSD, I haven't. =)> Unless everyone is Albert Einstein here. =) =)You mean you *HAVEN'T* turned in your paper on why e != mc^2 for some =)values of e? :-) Ofcourse I did =) I just meant some people will always be more advanced than others would. Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 18:09:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18987 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.MCESTATE.COM (vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM [207.211.200.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18979 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:09:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by mail.MCESTATE.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA17604; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:09:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Vincent Poy To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Marco Molteni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "[Mario1-]" , JbHunt Subject: Re: security hole in FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <14957.870303864@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: =)> what Jordan told me back in the FreeBSD 1.0 Gamma days. One will never =)> know everything and will need to learn from others. Unless everyone is =)> Albert Einstein here. =) =)It's not what you know, it's how you learn. Be more willing to =)investigate the obvious before you run to the mailing lists for help =)and you'll go much further here, Vince. Lack of proper "invesigative =)skills" is your biggest weakness, as I've amply seen while observing =)you these last couple of years, and you won't hone this skill by =)asking questions, you'll hone it by spending just a little extra time =)on each problem before bringing up that email client. It really isn't the investigative skills but like you said before about last year or so, I need to be more patient. Sometimes I just email out asking a question when I found the answer 2 minutes later. Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 18:16:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19585 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.MCESTATE.COM (vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM [207.211.200.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19580 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by mail.MCESTATE.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA17636; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:15:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Vincent Poy To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , Marco Molteni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "[Mario1-]" Subject: Re: security hole in FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <15071.870305098@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: =)> The docs that came with the product. As for books, I don't have =)> that much time to go through reading books because by the time I finish =)> reading it, it'll be too late. =) =)Heh. Vinnie, that is the most completely and utterly bogus argument =)I've ever heard. I have the Stevens book on Networking right here, =)for example, and it's as relevant today as it was the day it was =)published (and a great book on network programming besides). The same =)goes for the 4.4 BSD book from McKusick et al. If you want to know =)about the kernel, it's a fine place to start. Or how about Evi =)Nemeth'd book on system admin? Even the old editions are still =)largely relevant, and I'd recommend the book to anyone. This sounds =)like a pathetic excuse for avoiding your necessary reading and nothing =)else but. Give it up - now you're just trying to cram the other foot =)in where the first is already taking up all the space. :-) Maybe I'm just reading the wrong books or something. =) =)> You're still forgetting the fact that when you are physically =)> there next to the router machine, it's a night and day difference in =)> figuring things out. But when it's like totally remote, then you do need =)> to verify things first instead of totally screwing it up. Besides, for =) =)You first run simulations on your own machine, Vince. If you haven't =)got a machine for doing this kind of thing then I suggest that you =)de-volunteer for this position you've taken on because you are NOT =)QUALIFIED to admin a system under these constraints. Believe it or =)not, admin'ing for an ISP is is not a kiddy game. =) =)Anyway, I think you simply need to listen more, argue less and be =)willing to do more basic research before reaching for the red phone in =)the future if you want to be a success at this and not have everybody =)hating the very sight of your email address to boot. I'm trying to listen but like sometimes I really didn't know the topic was discussed before if the mails bounced back. =)When my martial arts teacher tells me that I'm not standing straight =)enough or that I'm too tense and am blowing some form I'm doing, I =)don't sass back and claim that Sifu doesn't know what he's talking =)about - of course he knows all that waaaaay better than I do and =)that's why I'm going to his bloody class. Similarly, people like Nate =)and I know this stuff a hell of a lot better than you do and when we =)say "Vince, you're fucking up - go read this book" then you should go =)read it, you shouldn't fire off another diatribe in response about how =)you don't have time or that the space aliens from the planet Zoobula =)who live in your sock drawer will be displeased. If you really do see =)yourself as such a beginner then LISTEN to those who know and stop =)being so bleeding contentious about everything. When we tell you to =)do something it's for a reason and we expect you to either do it or =)simply stop asking questions since you've obviously reached expert =)status on your own and no longer need our advice. I know what you're saying here. I just can't control myself when sometimes I don't have the patience. Sometimes I ask a question and then figure it out right after I asked. It's different when you say read the book and tell me which book than just saying read the book because not all books are the same and might not have the info I'm looking for. Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 18:38:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA21073 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21067 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (spork@localhost) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09039; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:40:18 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Branson Matheson cc: Bill Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Branson Matheson wrote: > ( http://www.ferginc.com/~branson/phone.questions.html ) Ooooh weee! I think I need a review... Thanks for posting this, it was very informative... Charles > > These questions are not in any particular order... and many are > designed to promote the applicant to reply with a question. > > ME: "What scsi ID is the controller on a scsi chain" > THEM: "What architecture.. Sun is at 7 on single ended, SGI is > at 0 single ended ... PC's can be reassigned at the card > etc.." > > I have compiled these from those given by Michelle Crab and from the > System Administration Handbook by nemeth et al. If you have others > that you can suggest ... they are always welcome. > > My favorite question to date, that is most frequently hmmm'd on is: > > "Name the fields in order in a standard password file" > > It is a good quickie to get somone who is clueless out of the loop. > > I also HIGHLY recommend the book mentioned above and the USENIX and > SAGE orginazations. > > - branson > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Branson Matheson " If you are falling off of a mountain, > System Administrator You may as well try to fly." > Ferguson Enterprises - Delenn, Mimbari Ambassador > ( $statements = ) !~ /Corporate Opinion/; > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 19:45:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25121 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25116 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA25237; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:14:37 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707310244.MAA25237@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Sharing interrupts In-Reply-To: <199707301754.KAA05362@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jul 30, 97 10:54:23 am" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:14:36 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert stands accused of saying: > > > > Because these aren't actually "simple". It's like asking why, if all > > it takes to make a nuclear explosion is a critical mass of > > fissionables, it took a horde of physicists many years to get it > > right. > > Specifically, Neutron numbers had to be determined empirically > before they could be curve-fit, without quantum theory advanced I said "it's like", not "I am" 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 19:52:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25531 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25515 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA25263; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:21:47 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707310251.MAA25263@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: <199707301751.NAA16509@i4got.lakewood.com> from Bill Pechter at "Jul 30, 97 01:51:44 pm" To: pechter@lakewood.com Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:21:47 +0930 (CST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Pechter stands accused of saying: > Re: the current state of the industry: > > > Ahh, but you assume that we haven't ever seen [name withheld] before. > > Unfortunately, his behavior is 'typical', in that he wants us to do all > > his research and work for him, rather than him spending the time to do > > his own work. He also shows a complete lack of interest in finding out > > solutions to his own problems. > > > > I've dealt with him too many times over the last 2 years to have > > anything but pity on any company he works for, since he will require > > hand-holding and doesn't do anything on his own. ... > Isn't the above the current state of the business. Yes. > I see a problem in the current state of the the art in Sysadmin-hood. > I just went on a job interview this morning (headhunter) where I was > asked if I know how to tune a kernel. Aigh! > Boy, I'm tired of watching the CNE, MSCNE types around work be unable to fix > stuff without forty phone calls to tech support. > Is the Sun/SCO/AIX certification process any better than Novell's paper CNEs? I went on a support call this morning, for a mail gateway/web proxy I installed a couple of weeks back. The customer in question is a software development house; the BSD system is in a room full of Decstations and SCO boxen on which they do their work. I spent an hour of my time, as well as that of three of their developers and one of the directors teaching them : How to edit the /etc/aliases file to forward mail. Unbelievable. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 19:53:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25608 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25602 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp12.monmouth.com [205.164.221.44]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA19820; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id WAA18153 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:53:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199707310253.WAA18153@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? To: spork@super-g.com (spork), branson.matheson@ferginc.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from spork at "Jul 30, 97 09:40:18 pm" Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Branson Matheson wrote: > > > ( http://www.ferginc.com/~branson/phone.questions.html ) > > Ooooh weee! I think I need a review... Thanks for posting this, it was > very informative... > > Charles You and me both... Just took the sysadmin test at: http://www.uwsg.indiana.edu/usail/test/ I passed at the skipper level (which is kind of experienced sysadmin) -- but the test made me sweat pretty good. Branson -- Your questions also made me realize I've been getting a bit cocky around here with regards to my ability and I've been getting a bit too lazy and I've got to hit the books again. Bill From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 20:02:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA26184 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA26172 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id UAA04084 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:01:26 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id XAA09653; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:01:22 -0400 Received: from compound.east.sun.com by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA16727; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:01:23 -0400 Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.east.sun.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) id WAA00907; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:03:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:03:14 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM Message-Id: <199707310303.WAA00907@compound.east.sun.com> From: Tony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bouncing mail from sites without a valid MX/A record References: <199707260544.BAA02854@pandora.hh.kew.com> <199707282109.QAA17786@compound.east.sun.com> <199707301509.SAA28734@katiska.clinet.fi> X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoth Heikki Suonsivu on Wed, 30 July: : : Hmm. I've received about 198 spam messages in the past 3 months. I : don't find *any* tainted by bogus domains. Nary a one. In fact, they : : Are you sure Sun isn't already filtering them ? I think you've hit the nail on the head. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 20:22:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27707 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27701 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp12.monmouth.com [205.164.221.44]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA24189; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id XAA18269 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:22:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199707310322.XAA18269@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199707310251.MAA25263@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Jul 31, 97 12:21:47 pm" Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I went on a support call this morning, for a mail gateway/web proxy I > installed a couple of weeks back. The customer in question is a > software development house; the BSD system is in a room full of > Decstations and SCO boxen on which they do their work. > > I spent an hour of my time, as well as that of three of their > developers and one of the directors teaching them : > > How to edit the /etc/aliases file to forward mail. > > Unbelievable. I hope you charged well. BTW -- I found that application developers were less likely to learn the administrative workings of their systems then tech support types or helpdesk types. If they're lucky they hire a good competent admin and keep the coders coding instead of trying to figure out how to make rsh or tcpip or uucp work. It saves a lot of money. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 21:00:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA29412 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29403 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA25628; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:29:12 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707310359.NAA25628@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: <199707310322.XAA18269@i4got.lakewood.com> from Bill Pechter at "Jul 30, 97 11:22:17 pm" To: pechter@lakewood.com Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:29:12 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bill Pechter stands accused of saying: > > I went on a support call this morning, for a mail gateway/web proxy I > > installed a couple of weeks back. The customer in question is a > > software development house; the BSD system is in a room full of > > Decstations and SCO boxen on which they do their work. > > > > I spent an hour of my time, as well as that of three of their > > developers and one of the directors teaching them : > > > > How to edit the /etc/aliases file to forward mail. > > > > Unbelievable. > > I hope you charged well. Standard rates. They're like to be a repeat customer. > BTW -- I found that application developers were less likely to learn the > administrative workings of their systems then tech support types or > helpdesk types. Definitely. But often the best developers are the ones with the omnivorous interest, and that generally leads them to at least a _basic_ understanding of how the system ticks. > If they're lucky they hire a good competent admin and keep the coders coding > instead of trying to figure out how to make rsh or tcpip or uucp work. > It saves a lot of money. ... something these guys desperately need. Their contract admin is away on holidas, which is why they felt comfortable bringing me in. I'm not sure if I should feel flattered or not. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 22:21:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04344 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04335 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem15.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.45]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA20112; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:23:55 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33E03C14.628C@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:17:40 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Branson Matheson CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Branson Matheson wrote: > > I have compiled these from those given by Michelle Crab and from the > System Administration Handbook by nemeth et al. If you have others > that you can suggest ... they are always welcome. > Ask how to get into single user mode on a Linux box. I asked this to the sysadmin of the Lab (I don't use Linux) and he answered I had to type "guest" during login time 8-). Curiously this information wasn't available on the bulky and useless "Using Linux" or in the LDP. Pedro. > > - branson > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Branson Matheson " If you are falling off of a mountain, > System Administrator You may as well try to fly." > Ferguson Enterprises - Delenn, Mimbari Ambassador > ( $statements = ) !~ /Corporate Opinion/; From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 22:35:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04983 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au (iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au [203.1.75.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04975 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs14p14.ipswich.gil.com.au (cs14p14.ipswich.gil.com.au [203.1.73.28]) by iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au with SMTP id PAA20553 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6 for ); Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:33:18 +1000 Message-ID: <199707310533.PAA20553@iccu6.ipswich.gil.com.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Peter Stubbs" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:35:16 +10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: HOTMAIL.COM, JUNO.COM, etc.... Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199707300015.UAA04770@pandora.hh.kew.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 29 Jul 97, Drew Derbyshire wrote: > Most of the SPAM I've seen recently has been from either large > sites (usally forged) or totally bogus names -- Earthlink, CIS, AOL, > ATT, and Hotmail seem popular for return addresses this month. I don't understand what a spammer has to gain from sending out mail without a valid return address. Isn't the return mail that gives them the business? What am I missing here? BTW: I had some spam on a recent hunting trip. It's disgusting! I burped up little spams for hours. ;} Cheers, Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 30 23:08:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA07274 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07267 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id AAA02584; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:08:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA24336; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:10:07 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:10:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Bill Pechter cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: <199707310253.WAA18153@i4got.lakewood.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Bill Pechter wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Branson Matheson wrote: > > > > > ( http://www.ferginc.com/~branson/phone.questions.html ) > > > > Ooooh weee! I think I need a review... Thanks for posting this, it was > > very informative... > > > > Charles > > You and me both... Just took the sysadmin test at: > http://www.uwsg.indiana.edu/usail/test/ Too bad some of the questions are... ermm... very trick questions. Normally that's fine, but not when you can only select one choice and can't elaborate. examples: 27. [E46] Which of the following two transport mechanism is used by NFS? UDP TCP (the correct answer is "yes".) 35. [M75] Only one License Manager may be installed on a server. True False (the correct answer is "perhaps", but you could argue the general answer is false) 39. [E65] Shell scripts that run SUID or SGID can be sufficiently secure. True False. (the correct answer is that nothing is secure.) 43. [M93] Which "traditional" TCP/IP service is often the most problematic for microcomputers to provide? Remote printing. File transfer protocol (FTP). Hypertext transfer protocol (HTTP). Computer mail. (the correct answer is huh? Use FreeBSD.) 52. [H20] The commands necessary to communicate with a peripheral devices are only known by the device driver subroutines. False True (the correct answer is of course not, someone had to know them to program it; you know that isn't what they want though...) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 07:11:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA11127 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11122 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA28532; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:40:15 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707311410.XAA28532@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD really a project? (introduction to WISE) In-Reply-To: <33DFA5EB.1766@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> from "Pedro Giffuni S," at "Jul 30, 97 01:36:59 pm" To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (Pedro Giffuni S, ) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:40:15 +0930 (CST) Cc: softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Pedro Giffuni S, stands accused of saying: > > > One thing I have always wanted to know are what are the objectives > behing each individual release..For example, what was so critical about > 3.0 that deserved that great step in the numbering? It had to be SMP. Possibly ELF too. 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 07:24:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA11603 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11582 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem17.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.47]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA20585; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:24:50 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33E0BAD7.5994@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:18:31 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Smith CC: softweyr@xmission.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is FreeBSD really a project? (introduction to WISE) References: <199707311410.XAA28532@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > > Pedro Giffuni S, stands accused of saying: > > > > > One thing I have always wanted to know are what are the objectives > > behing each individual release..For example, what was so critical about > > 3.0 that deserved that great step in the numbering? It had to be > > SMP. Possibly ELF too. 8) > Actually, in the past someone pointed out that both things worked fine for him under 2.2 8). Pedro. > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 12:59:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29340 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.buffalostate.edu (hummel@www.buffalostate.edu [136.183.2.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA29334 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (hummel@localhost) by www.buffalostate.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23333 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:59:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:59:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Hummel To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: UNIX World Online Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk UNIX World Online has a really bad Windows NT add on it. What's going on here? http://www.wcmh.com/uworld/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 13:26:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01284 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01279 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA15497; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:24:41 -0700 (PDT) To: Dave Hummel cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX World Online In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:59:19 EDT." Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:24:41 -0700 Message-ID: <15493.870380681@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > UNIX World Online has a really bad Windows NT add on it. What's going on > here? Just more of what's been going on for many months. Unlike Luke Skywalker, you see, when UNIX World and UNIX review were both approached by Darth, they said "hey man, tell us more about this dark side thing - it sounds cool. We both wanna be just like you!" Everything which has since followed was only the inevitable. ;) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 14:08:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03830 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03805 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.13]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id OAA24959 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:07:24 -0700 Received: from claque.Eng.Sun.COM by Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id OAA18338; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:07:23 -0700 Received: from freebsd.Eng.Sun.COM by claque.Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA08146; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:07:21 -0700 Received: from freebsd by freebsd.Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA01689; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:07:20 -0700 Message-ID: <33E0FE87.BD97FACC@eng.sun.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:07:19 -0700 From: Oliver Schmelzle Organization: Sun Microsystems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01b6C [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Pointers to copyright issues X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm looking for some pointers on copyright issues like on the BSD license or on the GPL. Especially I need some explanation written in "regular" English so people can easily understand the implications. I have general knowledge about these issues but I cannot explain it precisely. I know this has been discussed to death but I had no luck searching through the mailing list archives. It there any FAQ around? oli. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 14:28:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04962 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04957 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA08201; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:26:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:26:38 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Dave Hummel cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX World Online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dave Hummel wrote: > UNIX World Online has a really bad Windows NT add on it. What's going on > here? > http://www.wcmh.com/uworld/ Money. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 17:28:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA13061 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13055 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00713; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:58:26 +0930 (CST) From: Greg Lehey Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.6/8.6.12) id JAA07936; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:58:19 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199708010028.JAA07936@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: from Marc Slemko at "Jul 31, 97 00:10:06 am" To: marcs@znep.com (Marc Slemko) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:58:19 +0930 (CST) Cc: pechter@lakewood.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marc Slemko writes: > On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Bill Pechter wrote: > >>> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Branson Matheson wrote: >>> >>>> ( http://www.ferginc.com/~branson/phone.questions.html ) >>> >>> Ooooh weee! I think I need a review... Thanks for posting this, it was >>> very informative... >>> >>> Charles >> >> You and me both... Just took the sysadmin test at: >> http://www.uwsg.indiana.edu/usail/test/ > > Too bad some of the questions are... ermm... very trick questions. I don't think they're so much trick questions. I think the ones you're talking about fall into two main categories: 1. Incorrect questions. Here's one I had: > 17. [M33] What is the maximum number of devices the SCSI > standard permits, including the controller? > > 9 > 7 > 10 > * 8 It told me this was the wrong answer. 2. Questions requiring local knowledge. These are most of yours: > Normally that's fine, but not when you can only select one choice and > can't elaborate. > > examples: > > 27. [E46] Which of the following two transport mechanism is used by NFS? > > UDP > TCP > > (the correct answer is "yes".) I suspect that the NFS they use can handle only UDP. > 35. [M75] Only one License Manager may be installed on a server. > > True > False > > (the correct answer is "perhaps", but you could argue the general answer > is false) Doesn't this depend on the licence manager? This requires local knowledge. > 39. [E65] Shell scripts that run SUID or SGID can be sufficiently secure. > > True > False. > > (the correct answer is that nothing is secure.) OK. I'll give you a 'trick question' for this one. I decided "True", since I reserve the right to define "sufficient" :-) It didn't agree with me. > 43. [M93] Which "traditional" TCP/IP service is often the most problematic > for microcomputers to provide? > > Remote printing. > File transfer protocol (FTP). > Hypertext transfer protocol (HTTP). > Computer mail. > > (the correct answer is huh? Use FreeBSD.) Precisely. Local knowledge? > 52. [H20] The commands necessary to communicate with a peripheral devices > are only known by the device driver subroutines. > > False > True > > (the correct answer is of course not, someone had to know them to program > it; you know that isn't what they want though...) This is either a trick or poorly formulated. Still, I liked the questionnaire. It's a pity they didn't say what they thought were the correct answers. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 17:37:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA13665 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13638 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nexgen.hiwaay.net by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.8.6/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id TAA17955; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:37:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nexgen (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nexgen.hiwaay.net (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA17410 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:18:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708010018.TAA17410@nexgen.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Windows OT? (was Re: UNIX World Online) In-reply-to: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of "Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:24:41 PDT." <15493.870380681@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:18:42 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard replies: > > > > UNIX World Online has a really bad Windows NT add on it. What's going on > > here? > > Just more of what's been going on for many months. Unlike Luke > Skywalker, you see, when UNIX World and UNIX review were both > approached by Darth, they said "hey man, tell us more about this dark > side thing - it sounds cool. We both wanna be just like you!" > > Everything which has since followed was only the inevitable. ;) I rather appreciated the professional low key jab at New Technology in the 1st issue of the FreeBSD Newsletter. Have been wondering if it would be A Good Thing to demonstrate our sense of humor and add some letters to FreeBSD's name. Call it, "FreeBSD OT" or because Microsoft was unable to trademark Windows we could subtitle FreeBSD, "Windows OT". The OT could stand for Old Technology, Open Technology, or lots of other things. Everybody has brainstormed new and more appropriate definitions for NT at one time or another... :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 18:41:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA16445 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16440 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA01297; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:11:00 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708010141.LAA01297@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Windows OT? (was Re: UNIX World Online) In-Reply-To: <199708010018.TAA17410@nexgen.hiwaay.net> from "dkelly@hiwaay.net" at "Jul 31, 97 07:18:42 pm" To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:10:59 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dkelly@hiwaay.net stands accused of saying: > > I rather appreciated the professional low key jab at New Technology in the > 1st issue of the FreeBSD Newsletter. Have been wondering if it would be A > Good Thing to demonstrate our sense of humor and add some letters to > FreeBSD's name. Call it, "FreeBSD OT" or because Microsoft was unable to > trademark Windows we could subtitle FreeBSD, "Windows OT". > > The OT could stand for Old Technology, Open Technology, or lots of other > things. Everybody has brainstormed new and more appropriate definitions for > NT at one time or another... :-) Oh dear. Before FreeBSD could be OT, it would have to be Clear. Hey, we could have the first Clear OS! (Note, I am _not_ affiliated with the RTC, CoS or any similar organisation) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 18:57:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA16927 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (ppp-166.halifax-01.ican.net [206.231.248.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16805 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (scrappy@LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.6/8.8.2) with SMTP id WAA05902; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:50:29 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:50:29 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Greg Lehey cc: Marc Slemko , pechter@lakewood.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: <199708010028.JAA07936@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > 1. Incorrect questions. Here's one I had: > > > 17. [M33] What is the maximum number of devices the SCSI > > standard permits, including the controller? > > > > 9 > > 7 > > 10 > > * 8 > > It told me this was the wrong answer. Ummm...maybe I missed something here, but wouldn't the answer depend on which standard we are looking at? ie. narrow vs wide? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 18:59:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA16986 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16981 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01465; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:28:43 +0930 (CST) From: Greg Lehey Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.6/8.6.12) id LAA08151; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:28:42 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199708010158.LAA08151@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: from The Hermit Hacker at "Jul 31, 97 10:50:29 pm" To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:28:42 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker writes: > On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> 1. Incorrect questions. Here's one I had: >> >>> 17. [M33] What is the maximum number of devices the SCSI >>> standard permits, including the controller? >>> >>> 9 >>> 7 >>> 10 >>> * 8 >> >> It told me this was the wrong answer. > > Ummm...maybe I missed something here, I think so. > but wouldn't the answer depend on which standard we are looking at? > ie. narrow vs wide? Sure. But this was a multiple choice question, and these were the only possibilities. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 19:51:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA19939 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19926 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA21104; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:50:26 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Windows OT? (was Re: UNIX World Online) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Aug 1997 11:10:59 +0930." <199708010141.LAA01297@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:50:26 -0700 Message-ID: <21100.870403826@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Oh dear. Before FreeBSD could be OT, it would have to be Clear. Hey, we > could have the first Clear OS! [Best Graham Chapman accent] "OK, stop this at once. It's too silly." :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 20:01:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA20523 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20505 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA02163; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:30:21 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708010300.MAA02163@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: from The Hermit Hacker at "Jul 31, 97 10:50:29 pm" To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:30:21 +0930 (CST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, marcs@znep.com, pechter@lakewood.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker stands accused of saying: > On Fri, 1 Aug 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > 1. Incorrect questions. Here's one I had: > > > > > 17. [M33] What is the maximum number of devices the SCSI > > > standard permits, including the controller? > > > > > > 9 > > > 7 > > > 10 > > > * 8 > > > > It told me this was the wrong answer. > > Ummm...maybe I missed something here, but wouldn't the answer depend > on which standard we are looking at? ie. narrow vs wide? Yeah. Not to mention that you can put 8 LUNs on each unit, which makes the correct answer 57 or 121 respectively. > Marc G. Fournier -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 21:29:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA25308 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA25300 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 21:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem17.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24892; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:22:57 -0400 Message-Id: <33E180EC.564E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:23:40 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: John Fieber Cc: Dave Hummel , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX World Online References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Let's admit it guys : it's not the money they spend in this BS: they simply KNOW how to lie! It's called Marketing ....:( Pedro. John Fieber wrote: > > On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dave Hummel wrote: > > > UNIX World Online has a really bad Windows NT add on it. What's going on > > here? > > http://www.wcmh.com/uworld/ > > Money. > > -john From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 22:23:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA28996 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA28991 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id HAA25175 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:23:30 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA19259; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:20:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970801072030.LW57760@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:20:30 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? References: <199708010300.MAA02163@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199708010300.MAA02163@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Aug 1, 1997 12:30:21 +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > Yeah. Not to mention that you can put 8 LUNs on each unit, which > makes the correct answer 57 or 121 respectively. Not really. LUNs are normally subdevices, but not applicable to different devices. I think wide-SCSI with 32 bits is also standardized, but has never been actually built. This should allow for 32 targets. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 31 22:49:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00633 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00628 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA03856; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:18:17 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708010548.PAA03856@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? In-Reply-To: <19970801072030.LW57760@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Aug 1, 97 07:20:30 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:18:16 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > As Michael Smith wrote: > > > Yeah. Not to mention that you can put 8 LUNs on each unit, which > > makes the correct answer 57 or 121 respectively. > > Not really. LUNs are normally subdevices, but not applicable to > different devices. Nonsense. Look at the Emulex MD21, or the Ultrastor LUN breakout unit. Certainly LUN decoding has to occur within a single physical unit, but this doesn't mean that all the items hung off that unit are the same device. > I think wide-SCSI with 32 bits is also standardized, but has never > been actually built. This should allow for 32 targets. Yipe! -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 04:26:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA14842 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA14836 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 04:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA06625 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 06:41:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199708011041.GAA06625@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: UNIX World Online In-Reply-To: <15493.870380681@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jul 31, 97 01:24:41 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 06:41:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > UNIX World Online has a really bad Windows NT add on it. What's going on > > here? > > Just more of what's been going on for many months. Unlike Luke > Skywalker, you see, when UNIX World and UNIX review were both > approached by Darth, they said "hey man, tell us more about this dark > side thing - it sounds cool. We both wanna be just like you!" > > Everything which has since followed was only the inevitable. ;) NT in Unix Review. Right. In this month's Upside article about DEC tanking there is a great quote from some Micro-exec-lackey about "strategic partners". Without any shame he says strategic parter size isn't important - roughly, "a 100 person strategic partner will be more important to Microsoft than a 10,000 person strategic partner when the small company is proposing a 100% Microsoft solution and the large company is proposing a heterogeneous solution". Not exactly the same as the Unix market. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 05:16:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA16892 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oldman.steinkamm.com (arne@OldMan.Steinkamm.COM [194.127.175.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA16885 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from arne@localhost) by oldman.steinkamm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06310; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:15:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Arne Steinkamm Message-Id: <199708011215.OAA06310@oldman.steinkamm.com> Subject: Re: Sysadmin levels today? To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:15:46 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19970801072030.LW57760@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Aug 1, 97 07:20:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Michael Smith wrote: > > > Yeah. Not to mention that you can put 8 LUNs on each unit, which > > makes the correct answer 57 or 121 respectively. > > Not really. LUNs are normally subdevices, but not applicable to > different devices. Not really, Think of the old Bridge Boards (Emulex MT-02, MD-02) or the IBM uhm... 3470/80/90 (?) tape drives as sold by DEC, Sequent, ... Using such hardware means that you really access different devices with the same target ID and different LUNs. .//. Arne -- Arne Steinkamm | Mail (MIME): Arne@Steinkamm.COM IRC: Arne Tel.: +49.89.299.756 | URL: http://WWW.Steinkamm.COM/ NIC-Handle: AS306 Robert-Koch-Str. 4 | "There's coffee in that nebula" D-80538 Muenchen | Cptn. Kathryn Janeway, ST:VOY - The Cloud From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 05:48:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18242 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA18237 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA12075; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:47:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:47:03 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: "Pedro Giffuni S," cc: Dave Hummel , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX World Online In-Reply-To: <33E180EC.564E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Pedro Giffuni S, wrote: > Let's admit it guys : it's not the money they spend in this BS: they > simply KNOW how to lie! It's called Marketing ....:( Exactly. If you have enough money, you can say anything. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 05:54:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA18477 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA18472 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA05651 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:23:56 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708011253.WAA05651@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: SCSI disk prices... To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:23:56 +0930 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just to keep you informed on the IDE vs. SCSI war here : IBM DCAS-34330U, 4500rpm, 4330MB AUD$513 IBM DCAS-34330UW, 4500rpm, 4330MB wide AUD$574 The IDE version of the same disk : IBM DCAA-34330, 4500rpm, 4330MB ATA-3 AUD$349 (AUD$1 ~= US$0.75) These are wholesale prices from someone displaying the "IBM Business Partner" logo, for whatever that may be worth. (AGATE, if you're in Australia looking for a cheap SCSI disk) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 07:29:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA22532 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA22525 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 07:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem07.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15286; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:22:29 -0400 Message-Id: <33E20D70.4C25@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 09:23:13 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: John Fieber Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX World Online References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Fieber wrote: > > On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Pedro Giffuni S, wrote: > > > Let's admit it guys : it's not the money they spend in this BS: they > > simply KNOW how to lie! It's called Marketing ....:( > > Exactly. If you have enough money, you can say anything. Not, exactly: I was wrong, the correct term is "Benchmarking" you say what people want to hear. Money only determines how loud you scream... Extrapolating what my Marketing teacher says..it could backfire on them, just like it happened with cigars. Pedro. > > -john From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 09:26:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27644 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from global.dca.net (global.dca.net [204.183.80.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27637 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.dca.net [127.0.0.1]) by global.dca.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA11103; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:26:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter David Roehsler To: Dave Hummel cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX World Online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wonder what the web server is running??......:) On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dave Hummel wrote: > > UNIX World Online has a really bad Windows NT add on it. What's going on > here? > http://www.wcmh.com/uworld/ > *************************************************************************** Peter David Roehsler DCANet "Smart Internet Access" www.dca.net roehsler@dca.net (302) 654-1019 or (215) 235-7955 *************************************************************************** From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 10:44:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01977 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsmarso.dialup.access.net (lsmarso.dialup.access.net [166.84.254.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01967 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lsmarso@localhost) by lsmarso.dialup.access.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01954; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970801134034.29334@panix.com> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 13:40:34 -0400 From: "Larry S. Marso" To: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Windows OT? (was Re: UNIX World Online) References: <199708010018.TAA17410@nexgen.hiwaay.net> <199708010141.LAA01297@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199708010141.LAA01297@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:10:59AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Aug 01, 1997 at 11:10:59AM +0930, Michael Smith wrote: > > The OT could stand for Old Technology, Open Technology, or lots of other > > things. Everybody has brainstormed new and more appropriate definitions for > > NT at one time or another... :-) > > Oh dear. Before FreeBSD could be OT, it would have to be Clear. Hey, we > could have the first Clear OS! > > (Note, I am _not_ affiliated with the RTC, CoS or any similar organisation) FLAG? Sea Org? The Citizens Commission, perhaps? -- Larry S. Marso lsmarso@panix.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 17:36:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22121 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolfden.novagate.com (PM-101.Muskegon.novagate.net [205.138.137.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22085 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (eyager@localhost) by wolfden.novagate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA00230 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:24:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: wolfden.novagate.com: eyager owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:24:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Yagerlener X-Sender: eyager@localhost To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Forgery from From FreeBSD site? -- Your Water (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id RAA22117 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I recieved this scam that appears to have come from a FreeBSD site. Did this actually come from freebsd.org or was this a forgery from 1stfamily.com that somehow got my name off of the list? eyager@novagate.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: KAT@FreeBSD.ORG Received: from smyrno.sol.net (smyrno.sol.net [206.55.64.117]) by freenet.grfn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA02797 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by smyrno.sol.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA26087; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:59:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA10329; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA10316 for questions-outgoing; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.1stfamily.com (ns.1stfamily.com [208.15.229.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10311 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.1stfamily.com ([38.11.115.147]) by mailhost.1stfamily.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 0-38066U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA248; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:03:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199707310653.XAA10311@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 02:53:22 Subject: Your Water Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To: undisclosed-recipients:;;@grfn.org Content-Type: text X-UIDL: 870364576.034 [[Name]] Read all of the following post, Then... if offended by this email, we are sorry, please reply and insert remove as the subject. You will receive no future mailings from us. Follow this procedure to insure your removal!! Skeptical? That's OK, but don't let that healthy skepticism keep you from discovering what this information is and from making an intelligent decision once you know what it's all about! Your water is killing you!!! The American Heart Association indicates that water softened with salt may cause an elevated sodium level, which has been linked to a variety of other health problems, including high blood pressure, water retention, gall bladder disease and goiters ect. ect. What is your alternative? Magnetic Water conditioning will give you softer water without unhealthy salt found in many other systems and is maintenance free. Soft, acid free water feels, tastes, and cleans better than hard water. Buildings in the U.S that have Magnetic Water Conditioning Systems Trump Tower, New York City, Flamingo Hotel, Las Vegas, Nevada Daniel Corporation, Pepsi Cola - Bottle Washers, Kodak - Film Processing Coca-Cola - Bottle Washers, AT&T - Western Electric Desert Inn - Las Vegas, Nevada, Texaco Oil / Shell Oil / Richfield Oil Safeway Stores, Arizona, City of Scottsdale, Arizona University of Utah, Honeywell, Hollywood YMCA University of Michigan, Toro Corporation Summa Corporation, Sheraton - Swimming Pools Hughes Tool Company, Starmount Company / Forum VI Nevada Nuclear Test Site, Miami Bayside Ford Motors - Process Water, Piedmont Mall Holiday Inn - Icemakers, Bantam Books - Process Printing Nellis Air Force Base, Excel Meat Packing Plant Sands Hotel, Las Vegas, Nevada, Allied Signal Aerospace My House :-) Reduced Initial Cost and No Ongoing Costs!! You pay only a fraction of what traditional water softeners cost and unlike traditional water softeners, Our Magnetic Water Conditioning System requires no salt, no electricity, no extra water and reduces the amount of soaps and detergents used. Products of the future that will save you money and problems TODAY!! Perfect for homeowners, renters, or condo owners!! Magnetic fluid conditioning devices that put the full power of magneto-hydrodynamics to work for you. The product is a super high-powered ceramic magnet (s), originally developed by the U.S. government for NASA's Space Program---ultra-powerful magnets that don't wear out or require outside power. Magnetic Water Conditioning? Why haven’t you heard of this before?? No operating costs, Never another expense for the system, no maintenance!! could be the answer... Install one time and enjoy, cleaner, softer water with all the minerals!! Forever!! Would you like Sparkling Fresh Water, better tasting water, clear ice and clean pipes? Moveing? Just unclamp the units and take them with you. Our Magnetic Water Conditioning System has several cost, health and environmental advantages over water softeners that use salt. The M. W. C. System does not pollute with salt or chemicals, You get fresher, cleaner-feeling water. No slippery feeling when showering. Hair has more luster. Unsightly water spots on dishes, glasses, and even cars and trucks are greatly reduced. Clothes last longer. Swimming pools and spas stay clean and crystal clear with fewer amounts of chlorine’s, clarifiers and purifiers. M. W. C. System offer a healthier alternative because they add no salt, and leave the minerals in the water that are essential to human health. Even plants and grass respond to magnetically conditioned water by growing faster and healthier. Improved Water Flow!! Prevents minerals from precipitating on the inside of pipes and other surfaces in the form of hard scale, and will not corrode pipes, water heaters, and other fixtures. Resulting in Increased Water Heater and Appliance Efficiency. In fact the Magnetic Water Conditioning System actually removes scale build-ups that can drastically reduce efficiency of water heaters and certain other appliances. Clearly a more complete and efficient solution than traditional water softeners. Pays for itself quickly by what it saves in energy dollars. It also extends the life of plumbing fixtures, while reducing maintenance expenses and repair costs due to scale build-up. Save an average of $197 per year on water conditioning. Since magnetic water conditioning does not use potentially harmful chemicals, there are no environmental or health hazards. Net 10 Year Savings: $1,930 COST FOR A MAGNETIC WATER CONDITIONING SYSTEM FOR AN AVERAGE HOME: Commercial units are available, $399.95... Sale priced at $299.00 (plus $16.00 s / h anywhere in the U.S. or Canada) Installs in minutes, no tools necessary!!(Sorry Plumbers) System includes separate units, two (2) for cold water in line and two (2) for the hot water out. (90 day no risk money back guarantee!!) E-mail h20now@katerry.com for details on how to order. What is your alternative? (Traditional Water Softener) $1,500Cost for the Average Home, Removes Necessary Minerals that are a necessary to your good health!! Unsafe Heart or Hypertension , Uses Salt, Chemicals, Electricity, Has Sodium Toxic Residue in Water Installation Requires a Plumber, Expensive Maintenance, Being Banned in Many Cities, Fouling the Fresh Water Table, Don’t forget you get to carry 80 lb. Bags of salt. E-mail h20now@katerry.com for details on how to order. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 22:35:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03298 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (perrya@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03286 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (perrya@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA05140 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:33:38 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:33:38 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Your Water In-Reply-To: <199707310653.XAA10311@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is it safe to assume that the appropriate action has been taken about whoever spammed the list? Andrew Perry andrew@shoal.net.au From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 1 22:45:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03741 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03734 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09270; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:15:31 +0930 (CST) From: Greg Lehey Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.6/8.6.12) id PAA28465; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:15:30 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199708020545.PAA28465@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Your Water In-Reply-To: from Andrew at "Aug 2, 97 03:33:38 pm" To: perrya@python.shoal.net.au (Andrew) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:15:29 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew writes: > Is it safe to assume that the appropriate action has been taken about > whoever spammed the list? If you've answered and complained to the postmaster, yes. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 2 04:21:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA19964 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 04:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA19959 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 04:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id NAA14261; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 13:21:24 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA24489; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:55:03 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970802125503.IT56218@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:55:03 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: eyager@novagate.com (Eric Yagerlener) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Forgery from From FreeBSD site? -- Your Water (fwd) References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Eric Yagerlener on Aug 1, 1997 20:24:28 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Eric Yagerlener wrote: > I recieved this scam that appears to have come from a FreeBSD site. Did > this actually come from freebsd.org or was this a forgery from > 1stfamily.com that somehow got my name off of the list? You should learn how to read mail headers. > Received: from mailhost.1stfamily.com (ns.1stfamily.com [208.15.229.1]) > by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10311 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:53:21 -0700 (PDT) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ So it's pretty clear that it originated from ns.1stfamily.com, or maybe some internal host at 1stfamily.com. Why do you look at From addresses at all? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 2 19:20:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28317 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28306 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id WAA21681 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 22:20:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: CAP Gemini Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone ever heard of / worked for / worked with CAP Gemini the consulting firm? I'd like to know what experiences people have had with them. -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting / Network Engineering / Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 2 19:43:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA29524 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA29519 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11833; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:12:56 +0930 (CST) From: Greg Lehey Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.6/8.6.12) id MAA15183; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:12:55 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199708030242.MAA15183@freebie.lemis.com> Subject: Re: CAP Gemini In-Reply-To: from Open Systems Networking at "Aug 2, 97 10:20:05 pm" To: opsys@mail.webspan.net (Open Systems Networking) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:12:54 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Open Systems Networking writes: > > Anyone ever heard of / worked for / worked with CAP Gemini the consulting > firm? I'd like to know what experiences people have had with them. I've heard of them. Some friends of mine worked for them in various places in Germany before they went broke. The general impression I had was not favourable, but you should know that they took over many small software operations and let them go broke if they wanted to. YMMV. Greg