From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 21 04:42:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA27055 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA26937 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 04:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id OAA21317; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:30:51 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199709211130.OAA21317@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: uptime on hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from The Hermit Hacker at "Sep 19, 97 01:00:29 pm" To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:30:51 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > i prefer my machines up to date, since rebooting new kernel > > takes machine off for just a minute or two. > That's great for non-production machines that don't need 24/7 uptime, i do that on those 24/7 too... > even longer if that new kernel has the slightly bug in it, something I > experienced with a 'stable' kernel on a 'not-so-stable' machine awhile back :( ick. i've tried to solved it with a development desktop. one that'll run same system than the production machines... yes, probs on higher loads are not seen that way, but it's likely in few days someone on the lists have seen them... first i cvsup all into the same repository, then i make world & kernel in the development machine. and if all goes fine for few days, i go updating the other machines. so far, i havent gotten bitten to my leg by that. also, my home machine running current is somewhat "production" since it's required to get me into internet, and to me getting my machine into a state i can not get connected quolifyes multiple times more serious than anything anything else i can think... but, even with current, in past 3 years, software related problems havent been the cause to take me off the net. for that machine i read the lists, and then compile if it might be safe... occasionally i've been forced to reboot with the old kernel again, but even in those times i've gotten myself to net, and server have been able to operate "as usual", coz i update frequently, kernel.old works okish (top/w/ipfw might not work, that's all). yes, i agree, production server might suffer from a reboots to a new kernel. but it also might suffer from _not_ rebooting a new kernel. and it's something every admin probably sees differently. > Marc G. Fournier scrappy@hub.org mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 21 21:32:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09983 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09974; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA10957; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:37:46 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:37:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709220437.WAA10957@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Gary Palmer" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: >8 char usernames going into 2.2.5 In-Reply-To: <24763.874893252@orion.webspan.net> References: <199709210325.XAA14160@loverso.southborough.ma.us> <24763.874893252@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Palmer writes: > John Robert LoVerso wrote in message ID > <199709210325.XAA14160@loverso.southborough.ma.us>: > > The set of valid characters in usernames have nothing to do with what an > > Internet RFC covers. > > It does have relevance if you want them to get mail, or other such > useful functions. Not through the magic of aliases. Gary et al, you should stop arguing this point. Like Jordan said, the decision was made long ago, let it go. This is like the old adage about not trying to teach pigs to sing: it just makes you look stupid and irritates the pig. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 01:29:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA25440 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 01:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [193.117.77.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA25434 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 01:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA08563; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:25:29 +0100 (BST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08797; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:30:53 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <19970922093052.18994@strand.iii.co.uk> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:30:52 +0100 From: nik@iii.co.uk To: Wes Peters Cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Memory leak in getLawsByStupidity??? References: <5080.874580197@time.cdrom.com> <199709192152.PAA21092@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199709200245.UAA05234@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <199709200245.UAA05234@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Fri, Sep 19, 1997 at 08:45:18PM -0600 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Sep 19, 1997 at 08:45:18PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > I once got a ticket for driving barefoot in Utah. From a state park > ranger, no less. What, I ask you, is wrong with driving a car barefoot? Something to do with a safety reflex (I believe). If your bare sole comes down on something hard and possibly sharp, your immediate reflex is to lift your foot away from the object. If this object is a brake pedal and you're trying to slam on the anchors, the sudden connection between the sole of your foot and the pedal is likely to cause you to immediately take your foot off the brakes. This is obviously a bad thing. There's a bunch of this stuff at http://www.urbanlegends.com/legal/driving.barefoot/driving_barefoot.html The only snag being that Utah was one of the states that didn't reply. N -- --+==[ Nik Clayton is Just Another Perl Hacker at Interactive Investor ]==+-- '|' "Ceci n'est pas une pipe." (with apologies to Magritte) NC5-RIPE From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 02:19:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA28141 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA28124 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA15095; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:48:49 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970922184849.26318@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:48:49 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: nik@iii.co.uk Cc: Wes Peters , Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Memory leak in getLawsByStupidity??? References: <5080.874580197@time.cdrom.com> <199709192152.PAA21092@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199709200245.UAA05234@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19970922093052.18994@strand.iii.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970922093052.18994@strand.iii.co.uk>; from nik@iii.co.uk on Mon, Sep 22, 1997 at 09:30:52AM +0100 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 22, 1997 at 09:30:52AM +0100, nik@iii.co.uk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 19, 1997 at 08:45:18PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >> I once got a ticket for driving barefoot in Utah. From a state park >> ranger, no less. What, I ask you, is wrong with driving a car barefoot? > > Something to do with a safety reflex (I believe). If your bare sole comes > down on something hard and possibly sharp, your immediate reflex is to lift > your foot away from the object. > > If this object is a brake pedal and you're trying to slam on the anchors, > the sudden connection between the sole of your foot and the pedal is likely > to cause you to immediately take your foot off the brakes. This is obviously > a bad thing. This is the standard argument I've heard from lots of people. There are two facts about it: 1. None of them is in authority in this matter. 2. None of them have ever tried it seriously. I've been driving (and most other things) barefoot for over 30 years now, and I've never had any problems slamming on the anchors. I also didn't have problems with: 1. Finding the brakes. 2. Getting my footwear caught in the pedals. 3. Hitting two pedals at once. I occasionally have done so when driving with footwear. > There's a bunch of this stuff at > > http://www.urbanlegends.com/legal/driving.barefoot/driving_barefoot.html > > The only snag being that Utah was one of the states that didn't reply. Sure, but all who did (with the initial exception of Kentucky) said that there was no such law. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 06:12:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11316 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11311 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id JAA25089 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:11:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: boot -c vs. a customer kernal Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Am I correct to assume that when I use the '-c' option at boot to disable unused drivers that the drivers are still in memory, just not used ? Now if I make a custom kernal with those drivers commented out, my kernel should use less memory, but will it be any faster ? Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 06:24:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11838 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11831 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id JAA26587 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:23:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:23:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don;t have any hard facts to prove or disprove the subject line, but after I installed FreeBSD v2.1.6 (I know it's old - I'm still waiting for v2.2.2) it felt slower than OpenLinux Lite v1.1. FELT is the word here people, but over all OpenLinux felt faster and more responsive to any commands I gave it. I have a basic setup as follows i486DX2 - 66 ISA bus 32MB of RAM Promise VL EIDE Card Trident TGUI9440 based VL Video Card Adaptec 1522 SCSI Card FreeBSD is setup as fellows IDE Drive 2 (120MB in total) 50MB - / part 1 70MB - swap part 2 SCSI Drive 1 (500MB in total) 150MB /var filesystem 350MB /usr filesystem SCSI Drive 2 128MB Optical to used as a backup device Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 08:34:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19836 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (root@piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se [129.16.234.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19826 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grosse.mdstud.chalmers.se (md6tommy@grosse.mdstud.chalmers.se [129.16.234.21]) by piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00043; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:33:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (md6tommy@localhost) by grosse.mdstud.chalmers.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA17861; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:33:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: grosse.mdstud.chalmers.se: md6tommy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:33:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: Tommy Hallgren To: Paul Griffith cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD - not on my machine Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul writes: [snip] My machine is very similar to your. My system feels a lot more responsive using FreeBSD (2.2.1) than Linux (Redhat, 2.0.29) on it. Of course, some things are much faster in Linux thanks(?) to ext2fs using async disk updates. But I don't like it because of that. I have lost too many files just because I configurerd X wrong and my machine freezes when I type startx. I've done similar mistakes using FreeBSD, but never lost a single file. Using a filesystem like ext2fs for important stuff is really crazy. My microbenchmarks using bonnie shows that Linux can read 2.5MB/s to my Quantum FB(connected to a shitty ISA IDE controller). Bonnie also says that Linux uses 90% CPU to to that. FreeBSD does 2.2MB/s using only 30%, again according to Bonnie. I really like FreeBSD and its community. Mvh: Tommy Hallgren(md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 08:52:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21370 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21365 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA14714; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:52:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Paul Griffith cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:23:51 EDT." Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:52:11 -0700 Message-ID: <14710.874943531@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmmmmm. I FEEL that this report is somehow insubstantial, so much so that I think I'll just leave my comment at that. :-) Jordan > > I don;t have any hard facts to prove or disprove the subject line, but > after I installed FreeBSD v2.1.6 (I know it's old - I'm still waiting for > v2.2.2) it felt slower than OpenLinux Lite v1.1. FELT is the word here > people, but over all OpenLinux felt faster and more responsive to any > commands I gave it. I have a basic setup as follows > > i486DX2 - 66 > ISA bus > 32MB of RAM > Promise VL EIDE Card > Trident TGUI9440 based VL Video Card > Adaptec 1522 SCSI Card > > FreeBSD is setup as fellows > > IDE Drive 2 (120MB in total) 50MB - / part 1 > 70MB - swap part 2 > > SCSI Drive 1 (500MB in total) 150MB /var filesystem > 350MB /usr filesystem > > SCSI Drive 2 128MB Optical to used as a backup device > > Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 09:35:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25593 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25575 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13368; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01113; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:34:43 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:34:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709221634.KAA01113@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My monitor's got the Shakes... In-Reply-To: <2148.874908597@time.cdrom.com> References: <19970922020524.01866@vinyl.quickweb.com> <2148.874908597@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Moved to chat ] Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > go mad if I keep using it... I'm going to check and see if this is > > something that can be fixed for cheap, otherwise I'll be looking for a > > new monitor - what's recomended these days? > > In 17", I've always been partial to the Sony monitors. I also have a > Panasonic PanaSync5 which has always delivered fine performance, as > has my "Impression 7" (from which manufacturer is unclear from looking > at the outer case and I've long since forgotten :). My Impression 7 went dead after about 18 months, and work didn't want to replace it. So, it went to the 'garbage can', and for $50 + shipping my younger brother now has a 17" monitor. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 09:43:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26553 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25993 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem10.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.40]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00367; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:40:33 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3426A034.76B7@asme.org> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:43:32 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Griffith CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You are right... 1) FreeBSD 2.1.6 is very old and has poor performance when compared to 2.2.x. 2) Linux usually FEELS faster in a single user environment, but it is no match to a recent version of FreeBSD with many users and/or intensive tasks. Additionally, it seems like you chose the slowest disk for a swap partition and you probably didn't fine tune the kernel ;-). Pedro. Paul Griffith wrote: > > I don;t have any hard facts to prove or disprove the subject line, but > after I installed FreeBSD v2.1.6 (I know it's old - I'm still waiting for > v2.2.2) it felt slower than OpenLinux Lite v1.1. FELT is the word here > people, but over all OpenLinux felt faster and more responsive to any > commands I gave it. I have a basic setup as follows > > i486DX2 - 66 > ISA bus > 32MB of RAM > Promise VL EIDE Card > Trident TGUI9440 based VL Video Card > Adaptec 1522 SCSI Card > > FreeBSD is setup as fellows > > IDE Drive 2 (120MB in total) 50MB - / part 1 > 70MB - swap part 2 > > SCSI Drive 1 (500MB in total) 150MB /var filesystem > 350MB /usr filesystem > > SCSI Drive 2 128MB Optical to used as a backup device > > Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 09:57:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28392 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28387 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id MAA25852; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:56:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: "Pedro Giffuni S," cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3426A034.76B7@asme.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Pedro Giffuni S, wrote: > You are right... > 1) FreeBSD 2.1.6 is very old and has poor performance when compared to > 2.2.x. > 2) Linux usually FEELS faster in a single user environment, but it is no > match to a recent version of FreeBSD with many users and/or intensive > tasks. > > Additionally, it seems like you chose the slowest disk for a swap > partition and you probably didn't fine tune the kernel ;-). > > Pedro. So I should use the SCSI HD as my swap space ? What basic fine tuning would you suggest ? Paul Griffith From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 09:59:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28495 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28479 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id MAA26052; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:58:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <14710.874943531@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ROTFL Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Hmmmmm. I FEEL that this report is somehow insubstantial, so much so > that I think I'll just leave my comment at that. :-) > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 10:51:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04050 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04007 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id KAA18861; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709221750.KAA18861@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org From: deanna_troi@nc1701e.starfleet.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <14710.874943531.kithrup.freebsd.chat@time.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:23:51 EDT." Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <14710.874943531.kithrup.freebsd.chat@time.cdrom.com> you write: >Hmmmmm. I FEEL that this report is somehow insubstantial, so much so >that I think I'll just leave my comment at that. :-) I sense a great confusion and concern, Capptain. It's almost as if it were struggling to understand, but facing significant obstacles. Yet I sense no such obstacles, only the user. I think you should surrender to it immediately, Captian Pichubbard. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 11:21:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06029 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adam.adonai.net (adam.adonai.net [207.8.83.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06023 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (leec@localhost) by adam.adonai.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13616; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:20:35 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:20:35 -0500 (CDT) From: "Lee Crites (AEI)" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <14710.874943531@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk =>Hmmmmm. I FEEL that this report is somehow insubstantial, so much so =>that I think I'll just leave my comment at that. :-) => => Jordan Your sense of humor just kills me sometimes! (I assume you were being funny, at least). I have the unfortunate circumstance of having to work on a client site which is using linux on the pc's. From time to time I think that the response I'm getting from the machine I am working on feels a little crisper than my FreeBSD box (2.2.1). But then I have the reality check set in... This linux box I am currently using is nothing more than an x-server managing my windows showing what other machines are doing. For a 32meg p200 it's not doing too badly. My FreeBSD box, on the other hand, is * running several email lists, * getting about 1,000 web hits a day, (including java and cgi stuff), * mirroring my various client development environments several times a day, (which includes an RCS merge of newly mirrored programs), * running a prime number sieving program in the background (Hi, Richard!!!), * and even doing some bovine/rc5 stuff WAY in the background, * plus acting as a web development environment for two users, * and whatever else *I* might want to toss at it. It's a 128meg p133 (originally configured to handle 12 NT users) box. My response time is never bad, even with all of that happening. In fact it's at least as good as the linux box just running x. When I started running a bovine/rc5 process on this (the linux) box, I noticed a real response change. Not a bad one, mind you, but enough for me to easily notice. As for me and my house, we will use FreeBSD for everything we can! Lee From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 11:57:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09086 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09076 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id ad05947; 22 Sep 97 14:57 EDT Received: from stretch.cs.virginia.edu (atf3r@stretch-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.14]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16139; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from atf3r@localhost) by stretch.cs.virginia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07871; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:57:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: adrian@virginia.edu To: nik@iii.co.uk cc: Wes Peters , Nate Williams , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Memory leak in getLawsByStupidity??? In-Reply-To: <19970922093052.18994@strand.iii.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 nik@iii.co.uk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 19, 1997 at 08:45:18PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > I once got a ticket for driving barefoot in Utah. From a state park > > ranger, no less. What, I ask you, is wrong with driving a car barefoot? > > Something to do with a safety reflex (I believe). If your bare sole comes > down on something hard and possibly sharp, your immediate reflex is to lift > your foot away from the object. > > If this object is a brake pedal and you're trying to slam on the anchors, > the sudden connection between the sole of your foot and the pedal is likely > to cause you to immediately take your foot off the brakes. This is obviously > a bad thing. > > There's a bunch of this stuff at > > http://www.urbanlegends.com/legal/driving.barefoot/driving_barefoot.html > > The only snag being that Utah was one of the states that didn't reply. I always thought the big motivation was to keep people from kickin off their shoes while behind the drivers seat. Your should could easily become lodged under one of the pedals. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualzation Lab -->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 12:50:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13546 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13541 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA12338; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:50:38 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA15355; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:39:09 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970922213908.GA27029@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:39:08 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: paulg@interlog.com (Paul Griffith) Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD References: <3426A034.76B7@asme.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Paul Griffith wrote: > > Additionally, it seems like you chose the slowest disk for a swap > > partition and you probably didn't fine tune the kernel ;-). > > > > Pedro. > > So I should use the SCSI HD as my swap space ? Not really. Not after reading your hardware inventory again... With a decent SCSI controller, i would have immediately answered this question with `yes', however. > What basic fine tuning > would you suggest ? Oh well... You've got FreeBSD about at the worst supported hardware at all. ;-) FreeBSD's aic6[23]60 support plain sucks. We consider this driver unsupported (since nobody feels compelled enough to support it), and even with a better driver, the chip remains PIO or motherboard DMA, so it will either bind too much CPU, or rather slow. My tuning advice: try to pick up an old AHA-1540 (even 1540A will do), and then use the SCSI disk for pagiing space. I would be surprised if the machine doesn't feel faster after such a change. There's probably no other well-supported _and_ cheap SCSI controller for this class of hardware; my old scratchbox (386/40) also uses an AHA-1540A. For a PCI machine, the recommendation would be immediately to use a NCR 53c810 part, since they have about the best bang per buck ratio. j@uriah 201% dd if=/dev/rsd0 bs=1m count=20 of=/dev/null &\ dd if=/dev/rsd1 bs=1m count=20 of=/dev/null & [1] 15350 [2] 15351 j@uriah 202% 20+0 records in 20+0 records out 20971520 bytes transferred in 4.486693 secs (4674160 bytes/sec) 20+0 records in 20+0 records out 20971520 bytes transferred in 4.459271 secs (4702903 bytes/sec) 9.3 MB/s over a 10 MHz 8-bit SCSI bus doesn't seem to be very bad. :) (Yeah, i know, i should take sd1 off to the second bus, since this disk can shuffle > 8 MB/s sustained rate alone.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 12:50:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13570 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13559 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA12339; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:50:45 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA15372; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:41:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970922214110.MU35681@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:41:10 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: paulg@interlog.com (Paul Griffith) Subject: Re: boot -c vs. a customer kernal References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Paul Griffith on Sep 22, 1997 09:11:52 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Paul Griffith wrote: > Am I correct to assume that when I use the '-c' option at boot to > disable unused drivers that the drivers are still in memory, just > not used ? Right you are. > Now if I make a custom kernal with those drivers commented out, my > kernel should use less memory, but will it be any faster ? It probably won't be faster, except for the reduced paging activity due to more available memory. With 32 MB of RAM, the difference of a few hundred KB in kernel space is probably not noticable however. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 13:20:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16225 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16214 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA28050 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:20:13 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id WAA30575 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:19:58 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-2.10/nospam) id VAA05248; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:10:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970922211035.17604@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:10:35 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Paul Griffith on Mon, Sep 22, 1997 at 09:23:51AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Paul Griffith: > I don;t have any hard facts to prove or disprove the subject line, but > after I installed FreeBSD v2.1.6 (I know it's old - I'm still waiting for > v2.2.2) it felt slower than OpenLinux Lite v1.1. FELT is the word here You really ought to install 2.2.2. You should find it faster due to change in the VM part. It runs faster and, generally more important, smoother. I think OpenLinux is more modern and the Linux VM is getting better these days so it would be fairer to compare with 2.2.*. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #35: Sun Sep 21 19:28:07 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 14:35:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22474 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22465 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 20948 on Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:34:58 GMT; id VAA20948 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA00813; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:01:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970922230127.57989@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:01:27 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD References: <14710.874943531@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: ; from Lee Crites (AEI) on Mon, Sep 22, 1997 at 01:20:35PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Lee Crites (AEI) shared with us: > > [chop chop chop] > > As for me and my house, we will use FreeBSD for everything we > can! Yes, I too have always dreamed of having access to the source code of my refridgerator. I just wonder if FreeBSD has enough real-time capabilities to swith on the light at the right time when I open the door. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 15:51:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27654 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27645 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA14495 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:50:59 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA28626; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:24:58 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970923002457.YX05088@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:24:57 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD References: <14710.874943531@time.cdrom.com> <19970922230127.57989@grendel.IAEhv.nl> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19970922230127.57989@grendel.IAEhv.nl>; from Peter Korsten on Sep 22, 1997 23:01:27 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Peter Korsten wrote: > Yes, I too have always dreamed of having access to the source code > of my refridgerator. I just wonder if FreeBSD has enough real-time > capabilities to swith on the light at the right time when I open > the door. It has probably enough real-time capabilities to shut the door right before you stick in your nose into the fridge. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 20:21:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11762 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11755 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA12177; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:27:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:27:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709230327.VAA12177@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Peter Korsten CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19970922230127.57989@grendel.IAEhv.nl> References: <14710.874943531@time.cdrom.com> <19970922230127.57989@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten writes: > Lee Crites (AEI) shared with us: > > As for me and my house, we will use FreeBSD for everything we > > can! > > Yes, I too have always dreamed of having access to the source code > of my refridgerator. I just wonder if FreeBSD has enough real-time > capabilities to swith on the light at the right time when I open > the door. No, but with a couple of million dollars in consulting fees, I can port uC/OS to your target hardware, implment a tiny TCP/IP stack on it, place an embedded web server on it, and let you drive your refrigerator using FreeBSD. And all of the programming will be done on FreeBSD! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 22 21:52:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16247 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16233 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA12322; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:59:28 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:59:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709230359.VAA12322@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Nate Williams CC: Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My monitor's got the Shakes... In-Reply-To: <199709221634.KAA01113@rocky.mt.sri.com> References: <19970922020524.01866@vinyl.quickweb.com> <2148.874908597@time.cdrom.com> <199709221634.KAA01113@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams writes: > [ Moved to chat ] > > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > > go mad if I keep using it... I'm going to check and see if this is > > > something that can be fixed for cheap, otherwise I'll be looking for a > > > new monitor - what's recomended these days? > > > > In 17", I've always been partial to the Sony monitors. I also have a > > Panasonic PanaSync5 which has always delivered fine performance, as > > has my "Impression 7" (from which manufacturer is unclear from looking > > at the outer case and I've long since forgotten :). > > My Impression 7 went dead after about 18 months, and work didn't want to > replace it. So, it went to the 'garbage can', and for $50 + shipping my > younger brother now has a 17" monitor. :) We're not going to get into another of those "my {least favorite disk drive} sucked more than yours, until I based it with a hammer" arguments are we? ;^) Mark, I assume you were the initiator of this thread? What do you want in a monitor? Absolute best, price be damned? Best you can get for $XXX? Something that is stable and has good color, and will do at least XXXXxYYYY pixels without driving your eyes blinky? Come to think of it, this is another discussion I hate. Go to your local computer store, look at some monitors that seem nice, then search for them on the web. Or try http://oracle.uvision.com to search for prices. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 00:47:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA26834 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA26815 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00566; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709230746.AAA00566@rah.star-gate.com> To: Wes Peters cc: Nate Williams , Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My monitor's got the Shakes... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:59:28 MDT." <199709230359.VAA12322@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:46:49 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am very happy with my Sony Trinitro Multiscan 200sf 17 color monitor. One of the reasons that I like the monitor is because TV looks great on my monitor 8) Is not a bad idea to good to a local computer store and check out a bunch of monitors at at any rate thats what I did. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Wes Peters : > Nate Williams writes: > > [ Moved to chat ] > > > > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > > > go mad if I keep using it... I'm going to check and see if this is > > > > something that can be fixed for cheap, otherwise I'll be looking for a > > > > new monitor - what's recomended these days? > > > > > > In 17", I've always been partial to the Sony monitors. I also have a > > > Panasonic PanaSync5 which has always delivered fine performance, as > > > has my "Impression 7" (from which manufacturer is unclear from looking > > > at the outer case and I've long since forgotten :). > > > > My Impression 7 went dead after about 18 months, and work didn't want to > > replace it. So, it went to the 'garbage can', and for $50 + shipping my > > younger brother now has a 17" monitor. :) > > We're not going to get into another of those "my {least favorite disk > drive} sucked more than yours, until I based it with a hammer" arguments > are we? ;^) > > Mark, I assume you were the initiator of this thread? What do you want > in a monitor? Absolute best, price be damned? Best you can get for > $XXX? Something that is stable and has good color, and will do at least > XXXXxYYYY pixels without driving your eyes blinky? > > Come to think of it, this is another discussion I hate. Go to your > local computer store, look at some monitors that seem nice, then search > for them on the web. Or try http://oracle.uvision.com to search for > prices. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 05:11:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA07364 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jupiter.leirianet.pt ([195.23.69.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA07357 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vortex.pluriproj.pt (vortex.pluriproj.pt [195.23.69.137]) by jupiter.leirianet.pt (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA31912 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:09:20 +0100 From: jm@pluriproj.pt (Jose Monteiro) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: id lines Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:08:30 GMT Organization: Pluriproj Lda. Reply-To: Jose Monteiro Message-ID: <342eb06f.14267319@mail.leirianet.pt> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA07360 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi there, Can anyone tell me how are the lines like: # $Id: access.conf,v 1.0 1997/07/12 01:10:00 jhl Exp $ generated? I usually find them in certain shell scripts and configuration files. Thanks, *--------------Jose Monteiro --------------* | Pluriproj - Redes e Sistemas de Comunicacoes Lda. | | Agente IP em Leiria http://www.pluriproj.pt | *.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·* | Tel: +351 44 8182063 Fax: +351 44 8182061 | | Finger me or search key servers for my PGP public key | *-----------------------------------------------------------* From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 05:49:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA08996 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08974 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA19156; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:46:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: Jose Monteiro cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: id lines In-Reply-To: <342eb06f.14267319@mail.leirianet.pt> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA08990 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Jose Monteiro wrote: > Hi there, > > Can anyone tell me how are the lines like: > > # $Id: access.conf,v 1.0 1997/07/12 01:10:00 jhl Exp $ > > generated? > > I usually find them in certain shell scripts and configuration files. Program called cvs (it's on your computer) manages storing software in a project, with history, and the ability to merge in changes that come from many developers. It's one of a class of programs that are called version control software, or maybe source code control software (see the cvs man page). Anyhow, when cvs manages storing a file, it looks at the file and can be made to expand certain strings with predefined strings. One of those is $Id$, which is expanded like you see above to include the file name, the username of the person committing it, and the time and version number. There are others also, take a look at the man page. There are many other source code control systems too, some free, some commercial. Very good thing for someone doing software to know. > > Thanks, > > > > *--------------Jose Monteiro --------------* > | Pluriproj - Redes e Sistemas de Comunicacoes Lda. | > | Agente IP em Leiria http://www.pluriproj.pt | > *.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·* > | Tel: +351 44 8182063 Fax: +351 44 8182061 | > | Finger me or search key servers for my PGP public key | > *-----------------------------------------------------------* > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 07:24:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13363 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13357 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49794; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:18:38 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:18:38 -0500 (EST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: Paul Griffith Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Paul Griffith wrote: > > > Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com > > So I should use the SCSI HD as my swap space ? What basic fine tuning > would you suggest ? > I suggest you rebuild the kernel and use the memory filesystem (mfs) as swap disk. If it's your personal box (not many users) this won't give any problem. Pedro. > Paul Griffith > > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 08:26:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16626 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [207.170.114.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16621 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) id KAA14200; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:26:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970923102645.60062@pmr.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:26:45 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: chat list Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: ; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Tue, Sep 23, 1997 at 09:18:38AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 23, 1997 at 09:18:38AM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Paul Griffith wrote: > > > > > Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com > > > > So I should use the SCSI HD as my swap space ? What basic fine tuning > > would you suggest ? > > > I suggest you rebuild the kernel and use the memory filesystem (mfs) as > swap disk. If it's your personal box (not many users) this won't give any > problem. This sounds awfully circular (and dangerous) to me. What happens when the mfs daemon needs to page out something? Does the system fail? Is the failure gracefull? -- Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 08:37:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17263 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from murkwood.gaffaneys.com (dialup6.gaffaneys.com [208.155.161.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17254 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zach@localhost) by murkwood.gaffaneys.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) id KAA09831; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:34:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Zach Heilig Message-ID: <19970923103456.12955@gaffaneys.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:34:56 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: ; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Tue, Sep 23, 1997 at 09:18:38AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 23, 1997 at 09:18:38AM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > I suggest you rebuild the kernel and use the memory filesystem (mfs) as > swap disk. If it's your personal box (not many users) this won't give any > problem. Use mfs for SWAP!? wait, this has to be a troll... :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 08:54:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17944 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17903 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30608; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:39:00 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:39:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: Bob Willcox Cc: chat list Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19970923102645.60062@pmr.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think John Dyson once said that you had to have at least the same swap space as memory in your box. So your observation is absolutely logical. I thought the same once, but nothing irregular has ever happened on my home box. I only have 12M and although my box ran out of processes while building three ports at the same time, it has never really falled back. Hmm... if it shouldn't be done, perhaps it should be changed in the Handbook? :-) Pedro. On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Bob Willcox wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 1997 at 09:18:38AM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > I suggest you rebuild the kernel and use the memory filesystem (mfs) as > > swap disk. If it's your personal box (not many users) this won't give any > > problem. > > This sounds awfully circular (and dangerous) to me. What happens when > the mfs daemon needs to page out something? Does the system fail? Is > the failure gracefull? > > -- > Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread > bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. > Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 09:31:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19636 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [206.222.77.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19625 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA03494; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970923123058.64579@vinyl.quickweb.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:30:58 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My monitor's got the Shakes... References: <19970922020524.01866@vinyl.quickweb.com> <2148.874908597@time.cdrom.com> <199709221634.KAA01113@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199709230359.VAA12322@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709230359.VAA12322@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Sep 22, 1997 at 09:59:28PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 22, 1997 at 09:59:28PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Nate Williams writes: > > [ Moved to chat ] > > > > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > > > go mad if I keep using it... I'm going to check and see if this is > > > > something that can be fixed for cheap, otherwise I'll be looking for a > > > > new monitor - what's recomended these days? > > > > > > In 17", I've always been partial to the Sony monitors. I also have a > > > Panasonic PanaSync5 which has always delivered fine performance, as > > > has my "Impression 7" (from which manufacturer is unclear from looking > > > at the outer case and I've long since forgotten :). > > > > My Impression 7 went dead after about 18 months, and work didn't want to > > replace it. So, it went to the 'garbage can', and for $50 + shipping my > > younger brother now has a 17" monitor. :) > > We're not going to get into another of those "my {least favorite disk > drive} sucked more than yours, until I based it with a hammer" arguments > are we? ;^) Well, it hasn't turned into that up to this point at least! > > Mark, I assume you were the initiator of this thread? What do you want > in a monitor? Absolute best, price be damned? Best you can get for > $XXX? Something that is stable and has good color, and will do at least > XXXXxYYYY pixels without driving your eyes blinky? Well, the original thread was about my current monitor's problems. I was looking for possible recomendations as to what the problem could be, which turns out is likely bad capacitors or an arcing transistor -- purely a hardware issue which is why it was on the -hardware list. After several people mentioned that they were having the same problems with their MAG monitors, I indeed asked for recomendations.. > > Come to think of it, this is another discussion I hate. Go to your > local computer store, look at some monitors that seem nice, then search > for them on the web. Or try http://oracle.uvision.com to search for > prices. Naturally, looking at them is the best way to pick one -- the problem is that looking at a monitor in the store doesn't give you any idea about the reliability or long term performance. Since my MAG looked fantastic when I first bought it, and now looks like a piece of crap only 3 years later, I don't want to make the same purchasing mistake! I don't think that this thread has anything to do with "my monitor is better than your monitor".... Anyways, I'm looking for a 17" middle of the road to high-end type monitor. I do have a budget of course, but I'm not interested in the crappy 17's... Right now I've heard lots of good stuff about the Sony 200SF 17 - and the entire SF line actually. Sony seems to have dropped their prices quite a bit, to the point that the competitors just can't seem to match. The monitor I'm using right now is atacched to a Sun Sparc1, is 9 years old, and still works like a charm. No jitter or ghosting, the test is still crisp. In short, I think SOny knows how to make a decent monitor that will last and I'll probably end up buiyying one. The only wild card at this point is the 19" Hitachi models. The price is comparable, but I suspect the quality isn't nearly as good as the Sony. None of the stores in my area have the 19" Hitachis on display, but some people here are in the process of getting one, so I'm looking forward to hearing their reports! cya, -mark > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com RingZero Comp. http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark finger mark@quickweb.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The newest book, The Dilbert Future, took a broader view, describing how idiots will threaten every aspect of business, technology and society in the future." --Scott Adams From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 14:52:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07682 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07675 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id RAA29871; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id RAA11373; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:52:10 -0400 (EDT) To: Chuck Robey cc: Jose Monteiro , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: id lines In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:46:37 EDT." Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:52:10 -0400 Message-ID: <11371.875051530@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey wrote in message ID : > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Jose Monteiro wrote: > > # $Id: access.conf,v 1.0 1997/07/12 01:10:00 jhl Exp $ > Program called cvs (it's on your computer) manages storing software in a > project, with history, and the ability to merge in changes that come from > many developers. Actually, more correctly it comes from RCS, which CVS is a front end to. There are a large number of instances where RCS is still used in favour of CVS. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 17:12:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15450 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15429 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (max2-148.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.148]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA32010 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:12:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA09815 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:12:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709240012.TAA09815@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat list From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-reply-to: Message from "Pedro F. Giffuni" of "Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:39:00 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:12:06 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think John Dyson once said that you had to have at least the same swap > space as memory in your box. So your observation is absolutely logical. > > I thought the same once, but nothing irregular has ever happened on my > home box. I only have 12M and although my box ran out of processes > while building three ports at the same time, it has never really falled > back. I once was running with no swap. Figured a 48M text-only machine didn't need it. But then I ran out of memory on a plain old "make world" and have made sure that I have at least *some* swap ever since. On the 48M system I had a 16M unused partition reserved for swap, just forgot to use it. Solved my "make world" problem but I never saw more than 400k swapped. And never thought the core memory was all that busy. Apparently some kind of memory eating race occured. These days I'm down to 32M core and up to 64M swap. Good Old X11R6... :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 18:01:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17972 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pogo.gnu.ai.mit.edu (brnstnd@pogo.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17962 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from melange.gnu.ai.mit.edu by pogo.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) with ESMTP id VAA02584 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (devnull@localhost) by melange.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id VAA15325; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709240101.VAA15325@melange.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [newt@pobox.com: Re: Basic WWW PNG info needed] x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: If at first you don't succeed, quit; don't be a nut about success. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here is an example of where a stupid plugin API doesn't support everything that could be wanted--in this case, alpha channel wasn't supported. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Return-Path: owner-png-implement@dworkin.wustl.edu Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:25:40 -0700 (PDT) To: png-implement@dworkin.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Basic WWW PNG info needed From: Greg Roelofs Sender: owner-png-implement@dworkin.wustl.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: PNG Implementation List [snip] Whether a plug-in gets invoked for OBJECT vs. EMBED *is* a browser issue. The plug-in doesn't even exist at the time the decision is made. Likewise for the alpha-channel stuff: if the browser doesn't provide the proper hooks, there's absolutely nothing the plug-in can do about it. [snip] ------- End of forwarded message ------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 23 23:22:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05595 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05590 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id JAA26396 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:22:30 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199709240622.JAA26396@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199709240012.TAA09815@nospam.hiwaay.net> from "dkelly@hiwaay.net" at "Sep 23, 97 07:12:06 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:22:30 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > These days I'm down to 32M core and up to 64M swap. Good Old X11R6... :-) hmmm... disk space being cheapo as it is nowadays, it never hurts to have swap around... my 64M system has 256M swap, and _yes_, i once, so far, did run out of swap! from the past i recall some old unix thumb rule to have at least 2.5 times the amount of memory as swap. in machines where i use multiple disks, i normally swap about 128M each, no matter how huge swap i'd gain that way. also, it's rather understandable, i think, that people who are saved from limux world into bsd world might be little confused how much swap an unix machine needs, considering limux uses it's vm-system differently... (right?) > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 01:13:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13913 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13893 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id DAA03611; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 03:10:39 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199709240810.DAA03611@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199709240622.JAA26396@shadows.aeon.net> from mika ruohotie at "Sep 24, 97 09:22:30 am" To: bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net (mika ruohotie) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 03:10:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mika ruohotie said: > > These days I'm down to 32M core and up to 64M swap. Good Old X11R6... :-) > > hmmm... > > disk space being cheapo as it is nowadays, it never hurts to have swap > around... > > my 64M system has 256M swap, and _yes_, i once, so far, did run out of > swap! > > from the past i recall some old unix thumb rule to have at least 2.5 times > the amount of memory as swap. in machines where i use multiple disks, i > normally swap about 128M each, no matter how huge swap i'd gain that way. > > also, it's rather understandable, i think, that people who are saved from > limux world into bsd world might be little confused how much swap an unix > machine needs, considering limux uses it's vm-system differently... > > (right?) > Basically, the FreeBSD VM attitude is that mem is faster to execute code out of rather than disk. Also, disk is very very cheap. If there is memory that is being used, and other, more useful code or data could be residing there, we should make the memory available for better use. To make it available, we might have to push pages out the swap. Some OSes are designed with the attitude of saving swap space, because it is a very precious, expensive commodity. (In some cases it is, esp, diskless clients.) In many of our normal applications, it is very far from true. It is just an issue of education. On FreeBSD, it is not safe to get by with less than 1X memory for swap space in the long term, period. Beyond that, we are talking rules of thumb, and IMO 2X is just as valid for some applications as 6X is for others. (This suggestion might be different from the past), but I suggest a minimum of 128MB of swap space or 2-3X memory, whichever is greater, for a typical X-based workstation. One can temporarily get by with less, but all bets are off. The actual formula is: Total amount of swap space needed = total amount of swap space needed. :-). It has very little actual relationship with the total amount of memory in the system, except one is in for real trouble if the swap space is less than the size of memory. Another form of the formula above: Total amount of swap space needed is approximately related to the size of all processes in the system. So, if you add the size of all processes in the system (plus a little more), that is the maximum amount of swap space that you might use. The standard tools on our system do not adequately measure the total size of a process, even though /proc//map comes close. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 05:44:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA26595 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 05:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garbo.lodgenet.com (garbo.lodgenet.com [204.124.122.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA26590 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 05:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from milo.lodgenet.com (milo.lodgenet.com [10.0.122.42]) by garbo.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA10991 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:36:51 -0500 Received: from milo.lodgenet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by milo.lodgenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA12688 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:43:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709241243.HAA12688@milo.lodgenet.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Spam sent from hackers?? 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View 6 Channels At Once! 101 WILD XXX RATED LIVE CHANNELS - 2 ALL BLONDE CHANNELS 2 MULTIPLE GIRL CHANNELS - 2 CHANNELS OF REDHEADS AND BRUNNETTES 1 ALL BLACK CHANNEL - 1 INTERNATIONAL GIRLS FROM AROUND THE W0RLD 2 TEEN CHANNELS (18 AND 19 YR OLD BABES) - 4 CHANNELS = REAL SEX SHOWS-MALE/FEMALE-LESBIAN) = 2 MUCH 2 List...Check It Out http://www.schoolgirlz.com --==_Exmh_-11161286180-- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 06:03:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA27458 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA27453 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id JAA26230 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:03:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Adding another drive to a FreeBSD system Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I spend a good part of the night trying to add a SCSI 128MB removable optical drive to my system. Is the following steps correct: edit /etc/disktab run disklabel -w -r sd1 auto # assume 128 optical is /dev/sd1 newfs /dev/sd1 --- The fact that I am posting this means it didn't work, here is what I added to /etc/disktab (and why is this still used ????) sony128| Sony 128MB Optical| ty=removable:dt=SCSI:rm#3600:\ se#512:nt#64:ns#32:sc#2048:su#:2448826:\ pa#248826:oa#0:ba#4096:ta=4.2BSD:fa#0:\ pc#248826:oc#0 Its just a regular SCSI (if there is such a beast) 512 sector 128MB optical removable. Can I use scsiformat ?? Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com BTW: Is the section for adding a drive in the latest handbook still blank? I had to hunt this info down, by reading man pages, the O'rially (sp) System Admin hand book, and the FreeBSD Handbook, and it still didn't work. Maybe I just have to step to the table and work on it myself. I mean I you want to do Unix Admin, you just gotta know how to add more storage to your system :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 07:39:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01901 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01894 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14720; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:38:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199709241438.KAA14720@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: toor@dyson.iquest.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.chat References: <60ajr0$64i$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.chat you write: >It is just an issue of education. On FreeBSD, it is not safe to get by with >less than 1X memory for swap space in the long term, period. Beyond that, we I ran without any swap for months with no problem :) Granted I had 128mb on my desk, but it worked flawlessly. Never once had a problem, even with intense netscape sessions and other stuff all running at once. Then again, on a real OS like FreeBSD 128MB is alot :) -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 08:44:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05841 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (adm@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05829 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01550; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:44:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma001344; Wed, 24 Sep 97 10:43:57 -0500 Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA01812; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:43:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tundra.winternet.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:43:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Kyle Mestery To: Charles Henrich cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199709241438.KAA14720@crh.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Charles Henrich wrote: > I ran without any swap for months with no problem :) Granted I had 128mb on > my desk, but it worked flawlessly. Never once had a problem, even with > intense netscape sessions and other stuff all running at once. Then again, on > a real OS like FreeBSD 128MB is alot :) > I have 64MB of RAM, and 200MB of swap. I always swap while in X. The machine is my desktop machine, used for running X and compiling, my ppp link, and is an NFS server for two other machines. Usually, I use around 20-30MB of swap for what I consider normal usage. Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Network Systems Group 7600 Boone Ave. N., Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 mesteka@anubis.network.com, mestery@winternet.com "You do not greet Death, you punch him in the throat repeatedly until he drags you away." --No Fear From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 10:12:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11300 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (passer.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.110.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11294 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.6.10) id KAA02730 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709241712.KAA02730@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost, id smtpdaajCBa; Wed Sep 24 10:12:17 1997 Reply-to: cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca X-Mailer: MH X-Sender: cschuber To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FW: Funny: MICROSOFT'S NEW TV DINNER Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:12:13 -0700 From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FWIW... Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 UNIX Support OV/VM: BCSC02(CSCHUBER) ITSD BITNET: CSCHUBER@BCSC02.BITNET Government of BC Internet: cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca Cy.Schubert@gems8.gov.bc.ca "Quit spooling around, JES do it." ------- Forwarded Message Delivery-Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:07:24 -0700 Return-Path: prblake@perch.osg.gov.bc.ca Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.6.10) id KAA08016 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orca.gov.bc.ca(142.32.102.25) via SMTP by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdaaieDa; Wed Sep 24 10:06:55 1997 Received: from perch.osg.gov.bc.ca by orca.gov.bc.ca (5.4R3.10/200.1.1.4) id AA08289; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:06:53 -0700 Message-Id: <9709241706.AA08289@orca.gov.bc.ca> Received: (qmail 16861 invoked from network); 24 Sep 1997 17:08:45 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO perch.osg.gov.bc.ca) (prblake@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 24 Sep 1997 17:08:45 -0000 Reply-To: pblake@uumail.gov.bc.ca X-Mailer: xmh To: rheron@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca, cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca, Ken.Lee@gems8.gov.bc.ca, pemcmull@uumail.gov.bc.ca, rjewula@galaxy.gov.bc.ca, bjsieben@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca, dhutchinson@galaxy.gov.bc.ca, lltso@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca, pcmacdon@tadpole.osg.gov.bc.ca, sgrant@torvm3.vnet.ibm.com, john.a.edgington@gems.gov.bc.ca, hurstad@muss.cis.mcmaster.ca, davem@torvm3.vnet.ibm.com, holubeshen@bc.sympatico.ca, sdradin@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca, cafletch@shaw.wave.ca Subject: FW: Funny: MICROSOFT'S NEW TV DINNER Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:08:44 -0700 From: Peter Blake New giggle for you folks! > > > >> > >>INSTRUCTIONS FOR MICROSOFT'S NEW TV DINNER PRODUCT > >> > >>You must first remove the plastic cover. By doing so you agree to > >>accept and honor Microsoft rights to all TV dinners. You may not > give > >>anyone else a bite of your dinner (which would constitute an > >>infringement of Microsoft's rights). You may, however, let others > smell > >>and look at your dinner and are encouraged to tell them how good it > is. > >> > >>If you have a PC microwave oven, insert the dinner into the oven. > Set > >>the oven using these keystrokes: > >> > >><\mstv.dinn.//08.5min50%heat// Then enter: > >> > >> >> > >>If you have a Mac oven, insert the dinner and press start. The oven > will > >>set itself and cook the dinner. > >> > >>If you have a Unix oven, insert the dinner, enter the ingredients of > the > >>dinner (found on the package label), the weight of the dinner, and > the > >>desired level of cooking and press start. The oven will calculate > the > >>time and heat and cook the diner exactly to your specification. > >> > >>Be forewarned that Microsoft dinners may crash, in which case your > oven > >>must be restarted. This is a simple procedure. Remove the dinner > from > >>the oven and enter: > >> > >> >> > >>This process may haveto be repeated. Try unplugging the microwave > and > >>then doing a cold reboot. If this doesn't work, contact your > hardware > >>vendor. Many users have reported that the dinner tray is far too > big, > >>larger than the dinner itself, having many useless compartments, > most of > >>which are empty. These are for future menu items. If the tray is > too > >>large to fit in your oven you will need to upgrade your equipment. > >>Dinners are only available from registered outlets, and only the > chicken > >>variety is currently produced. If you want another variety, call > >>MicrosoftHelp and they will explain that you really don't want > another > >>variety. Microsoft Chicken is all you really need. > >> > >>Microsoft has disclosed plans to discontinue all smaller versions of > >>their chicken dinners. Future releases will only be in the larger > >>family > >>size. Excess chicken may be stored for future use, but must be saved > >>only in Microsoft approved packaging. > >> > >>Microsoft promises a dessert with every dinner after '98. However, > that > >>version has yet to be released. Users have permission to get > thrilled in > >>advance. Microsoft dinners may be incompatible with other dinners in > the > >>freezer, causing your freezer to self-defrost. This is a feature, > not a > >>bug. Your freezer probably should have been defrosted anyway. > ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 13:20:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24116 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24098 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA12622; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:20:33 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA06456; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:59:41 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970924215941.OU12423@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:59:41 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: paulg@interlog.com (Paul Griffith) Subject: Re: Adding another drive to a FreeBSD system References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Paul Griffith on Sep 24, 1997 09:03:20 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Paul Griffith wrote: > I spend a good part of the night trying to add a SCSI 128MB removable > optical drive to my system. Is the following steps correct: > > edit /etc/disktab > run disklabel -w -r sd1 auto # assume 128 optical is /dev/sd1 You don't use your edited disktab entry when using `auto'. You should always add a -B flag, too, to prevent an over-eager blatant complaint from the kernel about a not so magic disk... > newfs /dev/sd1 disklabel -e sd1 # edit your partitions newfs /dev/rsd1a ^ > The fact that I am posting this means it didn't work, here is what I added > to /etc/disktab (and why is this still used ????) It isn't if you're using `auto' above. > Its just a regular SCSI (if there is such a beast) 512 sector 128MB > optical removable. Can I use scsiformat ?? You probably could, but it's a totally different beast: it really requests the disk to _format_ the sectors. This is very low-level, and probably not what you want. Don't get confused by some wannabe- operating system that just smashes all the disk preparations into the word `format'. What you really want is to `high-level format', i.e. create your filesystems. That's what newfs is for. > BTW: Is the section for adding a drive in the latest handbook still blank? The FAQ contains more about it than the handbook. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 13:23:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24319 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24308 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 7392 on Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:23:22 GMT; id UAA07392 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: chat@freebsd.org Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA00627; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:11:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970923231125.31487@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 23:11:25 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My monitor's got the Shakes... References: <19970922020524.01866@vinyl.quickweb.com> <2148.874908597@time.cdrom.com> <199709221634.KAA01113@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199709230359.VAA12322@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19970923123058.64579@vinyl.quickweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <19970923123058.64579@vinyl.quickweb.com>; from Mark Mayo on Tue, Sep 23, 1997 at 12:30:58PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Mayo shared with us: > > Anyways, I'm looking for a 17" middle of the road to high-end type > monitor. I do have a budget of course, but I'm not interested in the > crappy 17's... Right now I've heard lots of good stuff about the > Sony 200SF 17 - and the entire SF line actually. Sony seems to have > dropped their prices quite a bit, to the point that the competitors > just can't seem to match. We're using Idek Iiyama 17" Vision Masters at our firm, all 8617's (several types) and one 9017, which has a Diamondtron tube. I and my collegues are very satisfied with this type of monitor. There's also an older type Philips Brilliance 17". Particularry the 9017 has has rich colours, but it also has the usual Triniton-lines, that sometimes can be a bit annoying on a white background. - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 13:43:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25837 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25821; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199709242043.NAA25821@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Spam sent from hackers?? To: johnp@lodgenet.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199709241243.HAA12688@milo.lodgenet.com> from "John Prince" at Sep 24, 97 07:43:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk yes, john, some spam leaks thru from time to time. ;( jmb John Prince wrote: > > This mail appears to be sent from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG.. > > > http://www.schoolgirlz.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 15:50:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04608 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04594 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA25176; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:20:10 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970925082009.16820@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:20:09 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Peter Korsten Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My monitor's got the Shakes... References: <19970922020524.01866@vinyl.quickweb.com> <2148.874908597@time.cdrom.com> <199709221634.KAA01113@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199709230359.VAA12322@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19970923123058.64579@vinyl.quickweb.com> <19970923231125.31487@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970923231125.31487@grendel.IAEhv.nl>; from Peter Korsten on Tue, Sep 23, 1997 at 11:11:25PM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 23, 1997 at 11:11:25PM +0200, Peter Korsten wrote: > Mark Mayo shared with us: >> >> Anyways, I'm looking for a 17" middle of the road to high-end type >> monitor. I do have a budget of course, but I'm not interested in the >> crappy 17's... Right now I've heard lots of good stuff about the >> Sony 200SF 17 - and the entire SF line actually. Sony seems to have >> dropped their prices quite a bit, to the point that the competitors >> just can't seem to match. > > We're using Idek Iiyama 17" Vision Masters at our firm, all 8617's > (several types) and one 9017, which has a Diamondtron tube. I and > my collegues are very satisfied with this type of monitor. I made a comparison of the 21" versions of these two monitors a while back. How would you compare your two? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 17:02:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09116 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gadget.nla.gov.au (gadget.nla.gov.au [203.4.201.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09109 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cmakin@localhost) by gadget.nla.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25299 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:01:30 +1000 (AEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gadget.nla.gov.au: cmakin owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:01:30 +1000 (AEST) From: Carl Makin To: chat list Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199709240012.TAA09815@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > These days I'm down to 32M core and up to 64M swap. Good Old X11R6... :-) Hmmm, I have 32Mb core and 100Mb swap on two disks and I run out daily. :( There seems to be something weird with Afterstep 1.0, XFree86 3.3.1 and possible Netscape. :( Carl. -- Carl Makin 'Work +61 2 6262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 17:44:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11690 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11685 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-135.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.135]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01309 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:43:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA06385 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:43:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199709250043.TAA06385@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat list From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-reply-to: Message from Carl Makin of "Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:01:30 +1000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:43:20 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Carl Makin writes: > > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > These days I'm down to 32M core and up to 64M swap. Good Old X11R6... :-) > > Hmmm, I have 32Mb core and 100Mb swap on two disks and I run out daily. :( > > There seems to be something weird with Afterstep 1.0, XFree86 3.3.1 and > possible Netscape. :( I fired up Afterstep last night after reading all the glowing reports. Decided it sure was pretty. And slower on my PPro-166 and Mach32 (no screaming video card there). I think I'm staying with twm, but wouldn't mind being able to grow windows by grabbing their bottom corners... :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 22:39:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26813 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26803 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA14853; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:46:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:46:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709250546.XAA14853@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Mark Mayo CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My monitor's got the Shakes... In-Reply-To: <19970923123058.64579@vinyl.quickweb.com> References: <19970922020524.01866@vinyl.quickweb.com> <2148.874908597@time.cdrom.com> <199709221634.KAA01113@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199709230359.VAA12322@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19970923123058.64579@vinyl.quickweb.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mark Mayo writes: > I was looking for possible recomendations as to what the problem > could be, which turns out is likely bad capacitors or an arcing > transistor -- purely a hardware issue which is why it was on the > -hardware list. After several people mentioned that they were > having the same problems with their MAG monitors, I indeed asked for > recomendations.. I have a MAG DX17T at home (Trinitron model) and a DX 1795 at work. They're both doing pretty well, but I'm not sold on MAG. The 1795 takes *far* too long to sync to a new frequency when switching resolutions, or from text to graphics, and has an annoying relay-sounding click while doing so. The 17T at home is working fine, but is also *very* slow to come up from sleep mode, or to change sync. I wouldn't buy another MAG for any reason. In comparison, my CTX 1765 GM on *my* machine at home switches resolutions much faster, wakes up in about 1/5 the time, has .5" larger viewing area, and slightly more washed out color. All in all, I'll take it over the MAG every day. > Naturally, looking at them is the best way to pick one -- the problem > is that looking at a monitor in the store doesn't give you any idea > about the reliability or long term performance. Since my MAG looked > fantastic when I first bought it, and now looks like a piece of crap > only 3 years later, I don't want to make the same purchasing mistake! > > I don't think that this thread has anything to do with "my monitor > is better than your monitor".... Your original post didn't, but it seemed to be heading off in that direction. The message here on -chat lost too much of your original context, I guess. Sorry! > Anyways, I'm looking for a 17" middle of the road to high-end type > monitor. I do have a budget of course, but I'm not interested in the > crappy 17's... Right now I've heard lots of good stuff about the > Sony 200SF 17 - and the entire SF line actually. Sony seems to have > dropped their prices quite a bit, to the point that the competitors > just can't seem to match. > > The monitor I'm using right now is atacched to a Sun Sparc1, is 9 years > old, and still works like a charm. No jitter or ghosting, the test is > still crisp. In short, I think SOny knows how to make a decent monitor > that will last and I'll probably end up buiyying one. The only wild card > at this point is the 19" Hitachi models. The price is comparable, but > I suspect the quality isn't nearly as good as the Sony. If you can find one in your area, I've had good experience with ADI. They have a new line out, with somewhat reduced prices, that might be within your budget as well. I'm trying to talk my boss into a 21" for work, and if I like it as much as I have in "borrowing" my friends, I'll probably buy one myself with my next bonus check. ;^) > None of the stores in my area have the 19" Hitachis on display, but some > people here are in the process of getting one, so I'm looking forward > to hearing their reports! I've heard good things about the new Hitachis, but remember their 20S with loathing. Big monitors are still really a crap shoot, but the 17" market is settling nicely. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 24 23:09:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA28039 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28033 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA14883; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:16:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:16:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709250616.AAA14883@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Carl Makin CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: References: <199709240012.TAA09815@nospam.hiwaay.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Carl Makin writes: > > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > These days I'm down to 32M core and up to 64M swap. Good Old X11R6... :-) > > Hmmm, I have 32Mb core and 100Mb swap on two disks and I run out daily. :( > > There seems to be something weird with Afterstep 1.0, XFree86 3.3.1 and > possible Netscape. :( I'd strongly suspect Memscape, er, Netleak, er, Netscape. Nice effort, but leaks like a sieve. The Java VM is particularly bad. I'm told 4.02/4.03 are better, but haven't tested much yet. 4.02 doesn't leak bytes for every Java VM socket connection like 3.03 did on Win32 at least. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 00:22:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA02103 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02098 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id DAA03019 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:22:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: debian linux ping ? *WARNING LINUX INVOLVED!!* Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk While to trying to figure out why my local cable company whos offering net access, has such flaky service, i ran across this output of ping and cannot figure out WHY it's doing these things. Anyone have an answer? cypress: {12}ping -v idtswe1 76 bytes from localhost (127.0.0.1): Destination Port Unreachable Vr HL TOS Len ID Flg off TTL Pro cks Src Dst Data 4 5 00 4400 a758 0 0000 40 11 0024 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 UDP: from port 1254, to port 512 (decimal) First question is WHY is it showing a packet with a src and dst address as 127.0.0.1? im not pinging loopback. 64 bytes from 206.101.232.98: icmp_seq=19 ttl=252 time=61.4 ms Correct IP address of idtswe1 64 bytes from lpthomas.winning-edge.com (205.217.148.247): Echo Request ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ NOT idtswe1.idir.net Whoa hello where did you come from. I think debian linux is broke :) 64 bytes from 206.101.232.98: icmp_seq=117 ttl=252 time=40.0 ms 64 bytes from 206.101.232.98: icmp_seq=118 ttl=252 time=53.3 ms 64 bytes from lpthomas.winning-edge.com (205.217.148.247): Echo Request ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Whats the deal on that as well? From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 01:26:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA05115 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA05104 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id LAA14306 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:26:11 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199709250826.LAA14306@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199709250616.AAA14883@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "Sep 25, 97 00:16:54 am" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:26:11 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > There seems to be something weird with Afterstep 1.0, XFree86 3.3.1 and > > possible Netscape. :( > I'd strongly suspect Memscape, er, Netleak, er, Netscape. Nice effort, hmm... i'm not sure which program it is, but rather than suspecting netscape this time, i'd point my fingers to afterstep... i use xf86 3.3.1 and s3, afterstep 1.0 and netscape 4b8, and when i use xv, after a while, by restarting the afterstep i'm getting mucho swap freed... the only time i ran out of swap happened when i forgot to restart, and had some 3 xv's running simultaneously... ofcourse, netscape tells me often, also in another machine where i use s3v, that it's out of mem, i need to free up some (like it'd be on windows machine), but all it's using is about 24 megs, and i have like all the swap available, and some ram too... mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 03:47:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA10641 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10636 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 03:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26140; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:44:30 +1000 Received: from localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au (localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25273; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:39:15 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709251039.UAA25273@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au: localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: debian linux ping ? *WARNING LINUX INVOLVED!!* References: In-Reply-To: from Open Systems Networking at "Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:22:39 +0000" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:39:15 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thursday, 25th September 1997, Open Systems Networking wrote: >While to trying to figure out why my local cable company whos offering >net access, has such flaky service, i ran across this output of ping and >cannot figure out WHY it's doing these things. Anyone have an answer? Ooh! I like puzzles. :-) >cypress: {12}ping -v idtswe1 > >76 bytes from localhost (127.0.0.1): Destination Port Unreachable >Vr HL TOS Len ID Flg off TTL Pro cks Src Dst Data > 4 5 00 4400 a758 0 0000 40 11 0024 127.0.0.1 127.0.0.1 >UDP: from port 1254, to port 512 (decimal) Looks like you were receiving mail and don't have comsat enabled in /etc/inetd.conf. And you've got a verbose ping. >First question is WHY is it showing a packet with a src and dst address as >127.0.0.1? im not pinging loopback. Because mail.local tried to talk to biff/comsat, I expect. Local to local. >64 bytes from 206.101.232.98: icmp_seq=19 ttl=252 time=61.4 ms > >Correct IP address of idtswe1 > >64 bytes from lpthomas.winning-edge.com (205.217.148.247): Echo Request > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >NOT idtswe1.idir.net >Whoa hello where did you come from. >I think debian linux is broke :) >64 bytes from 206.101.232.98: icmp_seq=117 ttl=252 time=40.0 ms >64 bytes from 206.101.232.98: icmp_seq=118 ttl=252 time=53.3 ms >64 bytes from lpthomas.winning-edge.com (205.217.148.247): Echo Request > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Whats the deal on that as well? It looks like linux ping isn't very picky and will display all ICMP traffic going past. It is an echo request, not a reply. Maybe the dude was doing a broadcast ping. I expected ping -v on FreeBSD to act the same, but got nothing special, even as root. I suppose there could be some kernel filtering going on, but I seem to be losing interest now. :-) You'll be wanting to "Read the Source, Luke"! Oh well, back to the grind... Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 04:34:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA11952 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA11842; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 04:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01033; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:03:37 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709250933.TAA01033@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Michael Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Argh In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:46:38 MST." <199709191246.FAA09205@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:03:35 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'm going to be offline for a few days, as I've just come back from dinner > to discover that the office has been broken into. I'll try to check my > mail every now & then, but I can't guarantee anything. Hmm, well. An update for those few who care. 8) They took the laptop and my CD player, but left the wart and the floppy drive behind. I faxed the local laptop-parts people on Monday, and Tuesday morning got a call about someone trying to locate said components. Fortunately the individual in question must have been about as thick as two bricks, as they even gave a phone number and address and confirmed the serial number over the phone. Anyway, the CIB wandered out Tuesday and nabbed the sod. He claims he bought it sometime later the evening it was taken, from "a friend" on the street. It doesn't sounds like he's being very helpful. Anyway, at the end of the day I am now just missing my CD player and the dongle off the 3c589. I'm not sure I'll have much luck replacing that, so it's off to find a new ethernet card I guess. Oh, and the laptop is covered in fingerprint dust. *atchoo* I don't deserve to be this lucky. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 05:20:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA13851 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA13844; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 05:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA29941; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:19:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: Mike Smith cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Argh In-Reply-To: <199709250933.TAA01033@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > I'm going to be offline for a few days, as I've just come back from dinner > > to discover that the office has been broken into. I'll try to check my > > mail every now & then, but I can't guarantee anything. > > Hmm, well. An update for those few who care. 8) > > They took the laptop and my CD player, but left the wart and the floppy > drive behind. I faxed the local laptop-parts people on Monday, and > Tuesday morning got a call about someone trying to locate said > components. Fortunately the individual in question must have been > about as thick as two bricks, as they even gave a phone number and > address and confirmed the serial number over the phone. > > Anyway, the CIB wandered out Tuesday and nabbed the sod. He claims he > bought it sometime later the evening it was taken, from "a friend" on > the street. It doesn't sounds like he's being very helpful. > > Anyway, at the end of the day I am now just missing my CD player and > the dongle off the 3c589. I'm not sure I'll have much luck replacing > that, so it's off to find a new ethernet card I guess. Oh, and the > laptop is covered in fingerprint dust. *atchoo* > > I don't deserve to be this lucky. 8) I'd have to call it that, relatively, because all you usually get is a whole lot of anger, but no return (he WAS stupid!) I'm happy to hear it wasn't worse, I guess. > > mike > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 06:26:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA16134 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gratis.grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA16111 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 06:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (greenpeace.grondar.za [196.7.18.132]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07108; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:24:09 +0200 (SAT) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by greenpeace.grondar.za (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14780; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:23:56 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199709251323.PAA14780@greenpeace.grondar.za> To: Mike Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Argh Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:23:24 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You lucky sod! :-) I discovered to my detriment that fingerprint dist is made of Al powder. The shit is conductive, and screws up hifis and computers. It took me ages to clean the stuff that got left behind after my burglary. M Mike Smith wrote: > > > > I'm going to be offline for a few days, as I've just come back from dinner > > to discover that the office has been broken into. I'll try to check my > > mail every now & then, but I can't guarantee anything. > > Hmm, well. An update for those few who care. 8) > > They took the laptop and my CD player, but left the wart and the floppy > drive behind. I faxed the local laptop-parts people on Monday, and > Tuesday morning got a call about someone trying to locate said > components. Fortunately the individual in question must have been > about as thick as two bricks, as they even gave a phone number and > address and confirmed the serial number over the phone. > > Anyway, the CIB wandered out Tuesday and nabbed the sod. He claims he > bought it sometime later the evening it was taken, from "a friend" on > the street. It doesn't sounds like he's being very helpful. > > Anyway, at the end of the day I am now just missing my CD player and > the dongle off the 3c589. I'm not sure I'll have much luck replacing > that, so it's off to find a new ethernet card I guess. Oh, and the > laptop is covered in fingerprint dust. *atchoo* > > I don't deserve to be this lucky. 8) > > mike > -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 07:19:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18785 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.colstate.edu (earth.ColState.EDU [168.26.193.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18779 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colstate.edu (mercury.ColState.EDU [168.26.193.32]) by earth.colstate.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05534 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:17:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CCMAIN/SpoolDir by colstate.edu (Mercury 1.32); 25 Sep 97 10:16:51 EST Received: from SpoolDir by CCMAIN (Mercury 1.32); 25 Sep 97 10:16:39 EST From: "Christian" Organization: Columbus State Univ., Columbus, Ga. To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:16:38 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: FreeBSD specialties Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <2178D50577@colstate.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, First of all I'm posting here because I know many of the FreeBSD gurus, (who would know the answer to my question), read this list, and because I'm not sure if it is appropriate for any other list. Here goes: I have been using FreeBSD since 1994 on our campus to handle many of the internet related tasks for us. Our web server, dns server, dhcp server, etc. all run FreeBSD. All of the things we do are pretty basic, and do not really take particular advantage of some advanced FreeBSD features, such as CCD, etc. So I do not know much about the bleeding-edge FreeBSD stuff. Anyways, one of my questions is, Are there things/features/capabilities in FreeBSD that other Operating Systems do not have? I'm not asking if FreeBSD does something better (i.e. webserving) , but if it does something others do not. Maybe freebsd has this special network service called xyz that other OSs do not have (this is an example). Also, what can FreeBSD do that linux cannot? (I ask this because FreeBSD does everything I need so well, that I have never really had the need/desire to install linux for comparison) Another question I had was versions of BSDI, Linux, and SCO can the various versions of FreeBSD emulate. Does -current, for example, support a higher version of BSDI binaries than -release? And what particular versions do they support, respectively? Thanks in advance, C.P. ---------------------------------------------- Christian Plazas Columbus State University (706)568-2063 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 07:26:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA19140 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA19130 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA04138; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:49:38 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709251419.XAA04138@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Mark Murray cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Argh In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:23:24 +0200." <199709251323.PAA14780@greenpeace.grondar.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:49:36 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You lucky sod! :-) Yeah, I guess. Would have been a lot luckier not to lose most of a week's working time though. > I discovered to my detriment that fingerprint dist is made of Al powder. > The shit is conductive, and screws up hifis and computers. It took me > ages to clean the stuff that got left behind after my burglary. Yeep. Fortunately, they were reasonably parsimonious with the stuff, though while cleaning it off the screen I was minded that it'd make an excellent cutting compound. There appears also to be a black variety that was used on the lighter plastic; that's not coming off with anything short of my (highly corrosive) perspiration. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 08:07:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21092 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21086 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id JAA15356; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:08:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:08:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709251508.JAA15356@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: mika ruohotie CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199709250826.LAA14306@shadows.aeon.net> References: <199709250616.AAA14883@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199709250826.LAA14306@shadows.aeon.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mika ruohotie writes: > ofcourse, netscape tells me often, also in another machine where i use > s3v, that it's out of mem, i need to free up some (like it'd be on > windows machine), but all it's using is about 24 megs, and i have like > all the swap available, and some ram too... Maybe you're hitting a per-process limit? Check your /etc/login.conf for whatever login class you fall into. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 08:08:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21177 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21170; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (daemon@cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.101]) by gatekeeper.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06686; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:08:35 GMT Received: from fsl.noaa.gov (auk.fsl.noaa.gov) by cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov with ESMTP (1.40.112.3/16.2) id AA186740115; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:08:35 GMT Message-Id: <342A7E72.B6F06734@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:08:34 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/725) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Argh References: <199709250933.TAA01033@word.smith.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > They took the laptop and my CD player, but left the wart and the floppy > drive behind. I faxed the local laptop-parts people on Monday, and > Tuesday morning got a call about someone trying to locate said > components. Good for you! I've got a similar story to report. Several years ago at the university computing center where I was an admin, our PC lab was compromised and several complete systems were taken. The consensus was that they were long gone and never to be seen again. I moved onto greener pastures afterwards (a not from the sale of stolen PCs, thank you). But I kept in touch with the computing center and learned of their plans to offer Ethernet service in the dorm rooms. Lo and behold, station addresses from the Ethernet cards of the missing PCs started appearing on the new subnet! Campus police were alerted and the wrongdoers were brought to justice. Sometimes, it's nice that a certain select few are dumb (or at least uneducated). --k From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 09:29:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26069 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (adm@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26056 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26558; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:29:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma026514; Thu, 25 Sep 97 11:28:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA17483; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:28:52 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tundra.winternet.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:28:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Kyle Mestery To: Carl Makin cc: chat list Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Carl Makin wrote: > Hmmm, I have 32Mb core and 100Mb swap on two disks and I run out daily. :( > > There seems to be something weird with Afterstep 1.0, XFree86 3.3.1 and > possible Netscape. :( > Turn off backing store on the X server. Afterstep seems to be pretty terrible with it on. I believe the option is -bs to the X server. Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Network Systems Group 7600 Boone Ave. N., Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 mesteka@anubis.network.com, mestery@winternet.com "You do not greet Death, you punch him in the throat repeatedly until he drags you away." --No Fear From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 09:33:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26354 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26345 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA13340 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:32:46 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id SAA11464 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:32:24 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-2.10/nospam) id HAA26738; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:42:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970925074210.10252@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:42:10 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat list Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD References: <199709240012.TAA09815@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Carl Makin on Thu, Sep 25, 1997 at 10:01:30AM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Carl Makin: > There seems to be something weird with Afterstep 1.0, XFree86 3.3.1 and > possible Netscape. :( Netscape is memory hungry (especially 4.03) but Afterstep is a swap pig. It is leaking somewhere (that's why I stopped using it). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #35: Sun Sep 21 19:28:07 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 09:52:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28341 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28305; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:52:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199709251652.JAA28305@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: +path +analysis +branch To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat In-Reply-To: <199709251040.DAA16218@usr03.primenet.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Sep 25, 97 10:40:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > "completeness" in the rigorous mathematical sense. Look up "+branch > +path +analysis" on AltaVista, or read the book "code complete" for a > higher level overview. If you do the AltaVista thing, you will at > least get a useful tool in C++ for processing C code and producing > test code out of it. 8-). ROFL..... Word count: branch: 716944; path: 1023858; analysis: 2949206 but i did get a link to an interesting article http://asic.union.edu/237/Projects/Glynn_Hammond/PentPPro.htm jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 11:00:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02226 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix.nmarcom.com (root@host-034.nmarcom.com [207.181.124.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02211; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.181.124.43] (host-043.nmarcom.com [207.181.124.43]) by unix.nmarcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00694; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:59:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: thelab@mail.nmarcom.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <342A7E72.B6F06734@fsl.noaa.gov> References: <199709250933.TAA01033@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:59:36 -0400 To: Sean Kelly , Mike Smith From: Will Mitayai Keeso Rowe Subject: Re: Argh Cc: Michael Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA02221 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:08 -0400 1997/09/25, Sean Kelly wrote: >Good for you! > >I've got a similar story to report. Several years ago at the university >computing center where I was an admin, our PC lab was compromised and several >complete systems were taken. The consensus was that they were long gone and >never to be seen again. > >I moved onto greener pastures afterwards (a not from the sale of stolen PCs, >thank you). But I kept in touch with the computing center and learned of >their >plans to offer Ethernet service in the dorm rooms. Lo and behold, station >addresses from the Ethernet cards of the missing PCs started appearing on the >new subnet! Campus police were alerted and the wrongdoers were brought to >justice. > >Sometimes, it's nice that a certain select few are dumb (or at least >uneducated). > >--k Oh, wow... i realize now that i have no real documentation listing thre hardware addresses of our ethernet cars/routers/etc, and it would be a very handy thing to have indeed for just that reason... thanks for the (idirect) tip. :) -Mit From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 12:59:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09426 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09383 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id WAA19506; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:57:23 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199709251957.WAA19506@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199709251508.JAA15356@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "Sep 25, 97 09:08:20 am" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:57:23 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > mika ruohotie writes: > > s3v, that it's out of mem, i need to free up some (like it'd be on > > windows machine), but all it's using is about 24 megs, and i have like > > all the swap available, and some ram too... > Maybe you're hitting a per-process limit? Check your /etc/login.conf > for whatever login class you fall into. nope, it's not that, it's netscape being buggy and thinking it doedsnt have memory available, since it's the only proggie with the said prob, and it's telling it to me _itself_, it's not bsd telling me... and any other proggie seems to be prefectly capable of eating up my ram. i'll try that x-server '-bs' flag next time i restart it. mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 14:36:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15226 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp1601.on.sympatico.ca (ppp6452.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.208.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15191 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1601.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00242; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:34:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: chat@FreeBSD.org cc: iwasaki@pc.jaring.my Subject: Re: pcm device has a conflict with FreeBSD(98)? (Re: cvs commit: src/sys/i386/isa/snd In-Reply-To: <342A1180.39FC0D16@pc.jaring.my> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [-current -> -chat] On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Mitsuru IWASAKI wrote: > > (i.e. I would not like to call it "yapcm"!) > > How about these? > - iss (Integrated (or Improved) Sound System) > - msnd (Multi-snd) > - nsnd (New snd) > - yasnd (Yet Another snd) How about nyp (Not Yet-Another pcm)? ;-) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 17:29:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24680 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gadget.nla.gov.au (gadget.nla.gov.au [203.4.201.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24675 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cmakin@localhost) by gadget.nla.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05434; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:24:30 +1000 (AEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gadget.nla.gov.au: cmakin owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:24:26 +1000 (AEST) From: Carl Makin Reply-To: Carl Makin To: mika ruohotie cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199709250826.LAA14306@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, mika ruohotie wrote: > > > There seems to be something weird with Afterstep 1.0, XFree86 3.3.1 and > > > possible Netscape. :( > > I'd strongly suspect Memscape, er, Netleak, er, Netscape. Nice effort, > i'm not sure which program it is, but rather than suspecting netscape > this time, i'd point my fingers to afterstep... Afterstep it was. Jason Andresen came up with the solution. Here is an extract of his email to me; > There used to be a problem with Afterstep if you used gradients with > more than 32 colors (or so). > If you think that might be the problem, check your .steprc and look for > TextureMaxColors I edited my .steprc and uncommented the following line; TextureMaxColors 32 32 32 32 and restarted Afterstep. It's memory usage halved and has been stable ever since. > the only time i ran out of swap happened when i forgot to restart, and > had some 3 xv's running simultaneously... I was running out of swap up to twice daily. :( Netscape and the Gimp running together were a fatal combination. > ofcourse, netscape tells me often, also in another machine where i use > s3v, that it's out of mem, i need to free up some (like it'd be on When I start Netscape it uses about 16Mb and launches another process (DNS Helper?) that uses another 7Mb. I've seen several of these "DNS Helpers" running. Carl. -- Carl Makin 'Work +61 2 6262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 18:02:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26205 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26200 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.17]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-41950U6000L1100S0) with ESMTP id AAA199; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:03:26 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id VAA01847; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970925210205.04897@scsn.net> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:02:05 -0400 From: "Donald J. Maddox" To: Carl Makin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net References: <199709250826.LAA14306@shadows.aeon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: ; from Carl Makin on Fri, Sep 26, 1997 at 10:24:26AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Sep 26, 1997 at 10:24:26AM +1000, Carl Makin wrote: > When I start Netscape it uses about 16Mb and launches another process (DNS > Helper?) that uses another 7Mb. I've seen several of these "DNS Helpers" > running. If you don't have a lot of memory to spare, you can disable the "DNS helpers" by setting the environment variable MOZILLA_NO_ASYNC_DNS to "True". export MOZILLA_NO_ASYNC_DNS=True From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 20:17:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02969 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usr05.primenet.com (tlambert@usr05.primenet.com [206.165.6.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA02963; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA26774; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:17:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199709260317.UAA26774@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: +path +analysis +branch To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:17:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@hub.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199709251652.JAA28305@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Sep 25, 97 09:52:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > "completeness" in the rigorous mathematical sense. Look up "+branch > > +path +analysis" on AltaVista, or read the book "code complete" for a > > higher level overview. If you do the AltaVista thing, you will at > > least get a useful tool in C++ for processing C code and producing > > test code out of it. 8-). > > ROFL..... > > Word count: branch: 716944; path: 1023858; analysis: 2949206 > > but i did get a link to an interesting article > http://asic.union.edu/237/Projects/Glynn_Hammond/PentPPro.htm Did you forget the "+" signs? There are only 6050 articles if you use the "+" signs. I didn't see the C++ tool for generating code coverage tests for C code, but mostly because I didn't refine the search. It's in comp.sources somewhere, since it was posted to usenet. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 20:49:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04370 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04365 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00561; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:17:08 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709260347.NAA00561@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: dmaddox@scsn.net cc: Carl Makin , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:02:05 -0400." <19970925210205.04897@scsn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:17:06 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Fri, Sep 26, 1997 at 10:24:26AM +1000, Carl Makin wrote: > > When I start Netscape it uses about 16Mb and launches another process (DNS > > Helper?) that uses another 7Mb. I've seen several of these "DNS Helpers" > > running. > > If you don't have a lot of memory to spare, you can disable the "DNS helpers" > by setting the environment variable MOZILLA_NO_ASYNC_DNS to "True". > > export MOZILLA_NO_ASYNC_DNS=True Note however that the helper does *NOT* use 7MB of your memory; much of that 7MB is shared with the parent; all it's using for itself are the extra stack pages and a little local data. For the improvement in interface that it buys you, I'd consider it essential. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 21:02:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04913 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gadget.nla.gov.au (gadget.nla.gov.au [203.4.201.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04906 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cmakin@localhost) by gadget.nla.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06749; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:01:52 +1000 (AEST) X-Authentication-Warning: gadget.nla.gov.au: cmakin owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:01:51 +1000 (AEST) From: Carl Makin To: Mike Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199709260347.NAA00561@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 26, 1997 at 10:24:26AM +1000, Carl Makin wrote: > > > Helper?) that uses another 7Mb. I've seen several of these "DNS Helpers" > that 7MB is shared with the parent; all it's using for itself are the Ahhh, now that would make sense! :) That sort of thing would seem difficult to pick up from "top" or ps -aux. Are there any tools that will look at that? Carl. -- Carl Makin 'Work +61 2 6262 1576' "Speaking for myself only!" From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 21:08:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05263 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05248 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00688; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:35:59 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709260405.NAA00688@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Carl Makin cc: Mike Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:01:51 +1000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:35:56 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Helper?) that uses another 7Mb. I've seen several of these "DNS Helpers" > > that 7MB is shared with the parent; all it's using for itself are the > Ahhh, now that would make sense! :) That sort of thing would seem > difficult to pick up from "top" or ps -aux. Are there any tools that will > look at that? It's a nontrivial thing to establish, as it would require traversal of all the page data for interrrelated processes. It's possible that you could examine the /proc//map files for the parent and child and learn something; I'm not sure about that though. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 21:11:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05421 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05416 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA15925; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:19:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:19:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709260419.WAA15925@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Mike Smith CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Argh In-Reply-To: <199709250933.TAA01033@word.smith.net.au> References: <199709191246.FAA09205@hub.freebsd.org> <199709250933.TAA01033@word.smith.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith writes: > Hmm, well. An update for those few who care. 8) > > They took the laptop and my CD player, but left the wart and the floppy > drive behind. I faxed the local laptop-parts people on Monday, and > Tuesday morning got a call about someone trying to locate said > components. Fortunately the individual in question must have been > about as thick as two bricks, as they even gave a phone number and > address and confirmed the serial number over the phone. > > Anyway, the CIB wandered out Tuesday and nabbed the sod. He claims he > bought it sometime later the evening it was taken, from "a friend" on > the street. It doesn't sounds like he's being very helpful. > > Anyway, at the end of the day I am now just missing my CD player and > the dongle off the 3c589. I'm not sure I'll have much luck replacing > that, so it's off to find a new ethernet card I guess. Oh, and the > laptop is covered in fingerprint dust. *atchoo* > > I don't deserve to be this lucky. 8) Sure you do. Call 3Com, cry in their lap, and they'll send you a new dongle. If you can point me to a list of supported PCMCIA ethernet cards, I'll see if any of the Dayna cards use the supported chipsets. BTW, I don't know if anyone here noticed, but yesterday Dayna and Intel announced their agreement for Intel to acquire Dayna. I'm being assimilated. The good news is, I get Pro 100B cards for employee purchase price in the near future. The bad news is, I'm not sure what will happen with some of the Dayna products, that will be sorted out early next year. In the meantime, I'll still do what I can for any Dayna products that FreeBSD'ers use. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 21:19:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05992 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05983 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA15937; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:27:47 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:27:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709260427.WAA15937@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Christian" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD specialties In-Reply-To: <2178D50577@colstate.edu> References: <2178D50577@colstate.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk PLAZAS_CHRISTIAN@colstate.edu writes: > Anyways, one of my questions is, Are there things/features/capabilities in > FreeBSD that other Operating Systems do not have? I know of one right off the bat: TTCP, or "TCP for Transactions." This is discussed at length in W. Richard Stevens book "TCP/IP Illustrated, vol. 3," where he used FreeBSD for the examples. TTCP is a connection oriented service like TCP, but with an accelerated open sequence that would be ideal for services like HTTP. With FreeBSD and some diligence, it would be possible to experiment with TTCP-based HTTP servers and clients and determine exactly the benefit for the WWW. Another plus: there are at least two implementations of IPv6, the next generation TCP/IP protocol, avaliable for FreeBSD. I've seen the version from ftp.inria.fr mentioned here a number of times. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 25 21:44:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07192 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07186 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00833; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:11:36 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709260441.OAA00833@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wes Peters cc: Mike Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Argh In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Sep 1997 22:19:00 CST." <199709260419.WAA15925@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:11:34 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sure you do. Call 3Com, cry in their lap, and they'll send you a new > dongle. No such luck. "Replacement parts can be ordered from your local retailer". Fooey. I'll see about a price first. 8) > If you can point me to a list of supported PCMCIA ethernet cards, I'll > see if any of the Dayna cards use the supported chipsets. Well, the list of supported cards refers to manufacturers, wheras the list of supported chipsets is basically the same as for "normal" ISA cards. If you have a list of what the Dayna cards use, I can tell you whether they'll work. 8) > BTW, I don't know if anyone here noticed, but yesterday Dayna and Intel > announced their agreement for Intel to acquire Dayna. I'm being > assimilated. Aigh! Intel are eating everything in sight! It wasn't long ago that they inhaled C&T... > The good news is, I get Pro 100B cards for employee > purchase price in the near future. The bad news is, I'm not sure what > will happen with some of the Dayna products, that will be sorted out > early next year. So you'll be staying with the "Dayna" product line, or moving elsewhere? > In the meantime, I'll still do what I can for any Dayna products that > FreeBSD'ers use. Good to hear. I haven't actually been aware of any unhappiness in that quarter... mike From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 26 00:42:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17712 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17702 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA08208; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:12:09 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970926171209.11155@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:12:09 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Christian Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD specialties References: <2178D50577@colstate.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <2178D50577@colstate.edu>; from Christian on Thu, Sep 25, 1997 at 10:16:38AM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Sep 25, 1997 at 10:16:38AM -0400, Christian wrote: > Hi all, > > First of all I'm posting here because I know many of the FreeBSD gurus, (who > would know the answer to my question), read this list, and because I'm not sure > if it is appropriate for any other list. This question is serious. It's not appropriate for this list :-) > Here goes: > > I have been using FreeBSD since 1994 on our campus to handle many of the > internet related tasks for us. Our web server, dns server, dhcp server, etc. > all run FreeBSD. All of the things we do are pretty basic, and do not really > take particular advantage of some advanced FreeBSD features, such as CCD, etc. > So I do not know much about the bleeding-edge FreeBSD stuff. > > Anyways, one of my questions is, Are there things/features/capabilities in > FreeBSD that other Operating Systems do not have? I'm not asking if FreeBSD > does something better (i.e. webserving) , but if it does something others do > not. Maybe freebsd has this special network service called xyz that other OSs > do not have (this is an example). Also, what can FreeBSD do that linux cannot? > (I ask this because FreeBSD does everything I need so well, that I have never > really had the need/desire to install linux for comparison) Hmm. Wes had a better answer than I. Another thing I can think of is TCP mounts for NFS. BSD/OS has them as well, but I'm pretty sure that most System V's don't, and I'm not sure about Linux. > Another question I had was versions of BSDI, Linux, and SCO can the various > versions of FreeBSD emulate. Does -current, for example, support a higher > version of BSDI binaries than -release? And what particular versions do they > support, respectively? All recent versions of FreeBSD support BSD/OS 2.x a.out files. There are some problems with 1.x. In fact, the problems are more between 1.x and 2.x than BSD/OS and FreeBSD; there were some differences in the structures used for file locking. You may, however, find that some BSD/386 1.x executables die on you before ever getting to main(). What we still don't have is support for BSD/OS 3.0 elf binaries. I think they're working on it, though. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 26 00:43:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17772 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17759 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA08216; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:13:25 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970926171325.31083@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:13:25 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FREE ?$B#B#S#D$K$D$$$F Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA00805 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jupiter.leirianet.pt ([195.23.69.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA00795 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vortex.pluriproj.pt (vortex.pluriproj.pt [195.23.69.137]) by jupiter.leirianet.pt (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA18955; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:01:20 +0100 From: jm@pluriproj.pt (Jose Monteiro) To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: FREE ?$B#B#S#D$K$D$$$F Message-ID: <3432a3d4.13889145@mail.leirianet.pt> References: <19970926171325.31083@lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <19970926171325.31083@lemis.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA00798 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk No dia Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:13:25 +0930, escreveu o seguinte: >I've never had any trouble getting as much ?$B#B#S#D$K$D$$$Fk$N$O$I$3$K?(J?$B%a!<%k$rAw$l$P$h$$$N$G$7$g$&$+!)?(J as I want, >especially when I think of spammers. What's this guy on about? > >Greg *--------------Jose Monteiro --------------* | Pluriproj - Redes e Sistemas de Comunicacoes Lda. | | Agente IP em Leiria http://www.pluriproj.pt | *.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·* | Tel: +351 44 8182063 Fax: +351 44 8182061 | | Finger me or search key servers for my PGP public key | *-----------------------------------------------------------* From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 26 05:10:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA01225 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01219 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01419; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:38:07 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709261208.VAA01419@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD as Microwave Controller In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:03:49 GMT." <199709261203.FAA20262@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:38:05 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > (Radar gear can be fun too, but you can't actually _see_ the radiation, > > only its effects...) > > Like the paint peeling off your test van, or birds falling out of the air... I like to think that the reindeer around Kiruna are slightly _more_ mangy courtesy of our installation. That would be an achievement 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 26 06:37:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA05047 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (mod4.logic.it [195.120.151.20] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA05039 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1752 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Sep 1997 13:36:59 -0000 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:36:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Quote of the day (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all! Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. UNIX _is_ user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 03:50:03 -0600 From: Quote of the day To: Quote of the day mailing list Subject: Quote of the day "If you can't make it good, make it look good." - Bill Gates [The quotation is unattributed, but certainly in keeping with the substandard software sold by Gates' company Microsoft, the computer world's equivalent of McDonald's. -ed.] Submitted by: Per Persson Nov. 26, 1996 -------------------------------------------------------------- Send quotation submissions to qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca Send list changes or requests to qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 26 07:19:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06687 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06682 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id IAA16876; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:26:41 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:26:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709261426.IAA16876@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Mike Smith CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Argh In-Reply-To: <199709260441.OAA00833@word.smith.net.au> References: <199709260419.WAA15925@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199709260441.OAA00833@word.smith.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith writes: > > Sure you do. Call 3Com, cry in their lap, and they'll send you a new > > dongle. > > No such luck. "Replacement parts can be ordered from your local > retailer". Fooey. I'll see about a price first. 8) Get a better ethernet manufacturer. Dayna would send you one. ;^) > > If you can point me to a list of supported PCMCIA ethernet cards, I'll > > see if any of the Dayna cards use the supported chipsets. > > Well, the list of supported cards refers to manufacturers, wheras the > list of supported chipsets is basically the same as for "normal" ISA > cards. If you have a list of what the Dayna cards use, I can tell you > whether they'll work. 8) Will do. > > BTW, I don't know if anyone here noticed, but yesterday Dayna and Intel > > announced their agreement for Intel to acquire Dayna. I'm being > > assimilated. > > Aigh! Intel are eating everything in sight! It wasn't long ago that > they inhaled C&T... Yep. What's next? "This morning Intel Corp. and FreeBSD Inc. announced their intentions to merge. Jordan K. Hubbard, President and CEO of FreeBSD, said ``This is a good deal for Intel, it brings them software engineering expertise they've never had before. The best part is now I've got a couple million in my pocket, though.'' Andy Grove, President of Intel, commented ``Don't bother me, I'm busy writing a FreeBSD device driver for my Intel videoconferencing equipment. I've installed FreeBSD on my computer and don't want to boot Virus95 in order to call in my lunch order.''" Yeah, right. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 26 07:32:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07505 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07490 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01747; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:59:15 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709261429.XAA01747@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wes Peters cc: Mike Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Argh In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:26:41 CST." <199709261426.IAA16876@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:59:14 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Mike Smith writes: > > > Sure you do. Call 3Com, cry in their lap, and they'll send you a new > > > dongle. > > > > No such luck. "Replacement parts can be ordered from your local > > retailer". Fooey. I'll see about a price first. 8) > > Get a better ethernet manufacturer. Dayna would send you one. ;^) Heh. And I bet 3Com elsewhere would too. Assholes; they want $150 for a new cable! Even the SMC one is only $30... > Yep. What's next? "This morning Intel Corp. and FreeBSD Inc. announced > their intentions to merge. Jordan K. Hubbard, President and CEO of ... > lunch order.''" Yeah, right. ;^) It'd be better than most of the rest of my nightmares... mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 00:11:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA05154 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05146 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 00:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA06308; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 02:57:58 -0400 Message-ID: <342CC8BB.7DE1@asme.org> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 01:50:03 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat list Subject: Re: Linux faster thasn FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is the swap space calculated during installation based on the memory available, or is it a rough (but changeable) estimate for everyone? Hmm..I lost John Dyson's recent posting...anyway, I recently discovered lmbench causes some core dumps when mfs is used as explained in the handbook (Well, yes I only have 12M but X was not running). Pedro. Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > I think John Dyson once said that you had to have at least the same swap > space as memory in your box. So your observation is absolutely logical. > > I thought the same once, but nothing irregular has ever happened on my > home box. I only have 12M and although my box ran out of processes > while building three ports at the same time, it has never really falled > back. > > Hmm... if it shouldn't be done, perhaps it should be changed in the > Handbook? :-) > > Pedro. > From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 05:21:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA21134 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 05:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA21129 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 05:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id OAA20903; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:21:04 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA16489; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:09:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970927140954.EY01005@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:09:54 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: PLAZAS_CHRISTIAN@COLSTATE.EDU (Christian) Subject: Re: FreeBSD specialties References: <2178D50577@colstate.edu> <19970926171209.11155@lemis.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > Hmm. Wes had a better answer than I. Another thing I can think of is > TCP mounts for NFS. BSD/OS has them as well, but I'm pretty sure that > most System V's don't, and I'm not sure about Linux. Solaris uses NFS over TCP even by default. I think FreeBSD's scsi(8) command misses comparision in other operating systems. In particular for testing, it has proven to be very useful. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 17:50:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23801 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23772 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA04963; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:19:42 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970928101941.03210@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:19:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) References: <19970927143934.ZN26834@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Sep 27, 1997 at 09:27:02PM +0000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (following up to -chat) On Sat, Sep 27, 1997 at 09:27:02PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> The easy answer to this is that there isn't a Motif-based listbox >>> setup for the nameserver code, where you just fill in the names you >>> want, and it does the rest. >>> >>> The less easy answer is "it's hard enough to set up that it's not >>> worth doing for most people". >> >> Writing a Motif-based program would take a tremenduous amount of time. > > If you make it grammar-based, you write it once, and it works for a > crudload of command line configurators that know how to be run over > pipes. Like disk partition tools, install tools, etc.. Correct. But why? > So you can pretty much amortize the cost over a hell of a lot of code. Well, it makes the lossage less, agreed. >> Why do it if the basic nameserver setup takes about 10 minutes? (No, >> not the caching-only server, this one only takes a couple of minutes.) > > Each. Time. How do you find out your configuration with this horrible, complicated, you-only-see-as-much-at-a-time-as-I-want-to-show- you-and-make-sure-you-keep-alternating-from-keyboard-to-mouse Motif application once you have entered your initial configuration? >> I've seen the listbox-style cr*p that ships with some M$ operating >> system. The listboxes look nice, are terrible to use > > Speak for yourself. 99.99% of the computer users in the world prefer > that type of interface -- which is why they are MS users instead of UNIX > users. Wrong on both counts. 99.99% of the computer users in the world don't understand the question -- which is why they are MS users instead of UNIX. In fact, I'm very surprised to find you defending this position. > UNIX users are, as a class, intellectual elitists who don't > undertand that the average I.Q. is 100 because that is how a 100 I.Q. > is defined. And as a class, they are unprepared to make the necessary > allowances. There's a good reason a moron can run Microsoft OS's: so > that that morons won't be too intimidated to buy them. Well, again I'd say wrong on both counts. Morons can't run Microsoft's OSs. Even people of normal intelligence (whom I think I can understand quite well) feel intimidated by them. That's not to say, of course, that they don't feel intimidated by UNIX as well. >> (it's a pain in the rear to add all the same standard MX records to >> each host using this kind of `editor'), > > This is why you connect to www.microsoft.com, go to the download area, > and pull down the configuration template mechanism, if you're an IS > person who needs to set up a lot of machines. I'm not going to try, because I'm sure it won't work for me, but I'd bet that there are bugs in it which makes it more of a nuisance to use than a help. And it probably does the same sort of things to your config files that Microsoft mailers to do outgoing mail. > For non-MX (and other ancillary network configuration) type stuff, you > use DHCP *OR* you use a non-TCP/IP protocol to avoid name-number data > translation altogether. > > Normal mortals don't like TCP/IP because it bears no resemblance to > reality. I don't have to name my car to remember where I parked it. What's your license plate, Terry? >> but the vendor of that cr*p didn't get the underlying nameserver >> working correctly at all. (For example, the server never hands out >> authoritative answers, even if it is for sure an authoritative server.) > > This may be intentional laxity. In their opinion, you are supposed > to buy an NT server and configure WINS naming instead of DNS. Make up your mind what you're arguing. >> And finally, using the shicky-micky listbox interface usually screws >> the nameserver setup at all. > > But it's easy. Then why don't you do it and import the configuration to your UNIX box? I'd like to see it, if only to pick holes in it. How do you set up a HINFO RR? An ISDN RR? > It's a hell of a lot easier than running an editor and > shelling out to a man page every five minutes, or worse, shelling out > money for an O'Reilly book, which is made necessary by all the bogus > complexity associated with the task, and trying to balance the thing > on your knees while typing in secret code words. To be fair, I think that O'Reilly's DNS book is too confusing. TCP/IP Network administration will give you more info that any Microsoft toy config tool can. > For something designed by a bunch of bonifide computer scientists, > you'd think they would be able to grasp the concept of putting > configuration databases in third normal form. 8-|. Who are you talking about here? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 19:54:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00908 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00903 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id TAA20632; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:54:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199709280254.TAA20632@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) In-Reply-To: <19970928101941.03210.kithrup.freebsd.chat@lemis.com> References: <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Sep 27, 1997 at 09:27:02PM +0000 Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>> Writing a Motif-based program would take a tremenduous amount of time. But writing a Tk-based program to do it takes less. I've got someone who wants to do it -- he is simply lacking in time. A bit of prodding, and he may be willing to make time to do it. ("it" in this case is a GUI interface to the real-time named editing that Paul has put into BIND 8.something -- so you don't edit the host files any longer, you can have named edit them for you. There are some obvious security implications, of course.) >> If you make it grammar-based, you write it once, and it works for a >> crudload of command line configurators that know how to be run over >> pipes. Like disk partition tools, install tools, etc.. >Correct. But why? I dunno 'bout you, but I hate having to partition drives using 'disklabel -e'. Fortunately, I don't add new drives all that often, and it can be done now using /stand/sysinstall. Of course, what Terry is talking about is having a common utility to do the disk partitioning, install menus, etc., and have a "script" for each particular need. There are numerous examples of existing utilities to do this, in commercial OSes. >How do you find out your configuration with this horrible, >complicated, you-only-see-as-much-at-a-time-as-I-want-to-show- >you-and-make-sure-you-keep-alternating-from-keyboard-to-mouse Motif >application once you have entered your initial configuration? "The experienced user will know what to do." Most people don't need all that information; most people just need to set up a fairly standard configuration. That's what the "friendly" tools are for. And the files are still editable for the people who know what they are doing, and what they want. Having a simple "create a standardized named.boot, .zone, and .rev file" shell script, which would ask a couple of questions, would suffice in Terry's case. Of course, he could write that shell script pretty easily, and submit it. Except, of course, that people have this tendency to just reject anything Terry says *because* it's from Terry :). >Wrong on both counts. 99.99% of the computer users in the world don't >understand the question -- which is why they are MS users instead of >UNIX. In fact, I'm very surprised to find you defending this >position. And if 99.99% of the computer users can't understand the question, what makes you think they'll want to fiddle with the bits that the GUI program doesn't allow them to? >> Normal mortals don't like TCP/IP because it bears no resemblance to >> reality. I don't have to name my car to remember where I parked it. >What's your license plate, Terry? I don't know my license plate. I know what my car looks like, and I remember vaguely where I parked it. This caused me a problem, once, when there was someone parked an identical car next to mine (same year, colour, model, and transmission type -- only difference was that this imposter car had some rosary beads hanging from the rear-view mirror, which I noticed just as I put the key in the lock). What that has to do with anything, I don't know -- you're refusing to see Terry's point, possibly because it's Terry, and Terry is going on about a grand unified field theory when he could have solved the special relativity problem and gotten his nobel prize by now. :) >>> but the vendor of that cr*p didn't get the underlying nameserver >>> working correctly at all. (For example, the server never hands out >>> authoritative answers, even if it is for sure an authoritative server.) >> This may be intentional laxity. In their opinion, you are supposed >> to buy an NT server and configure WINS naming instead of DNS. >Make up your mind what you're arguing. Lessee... it was said that "the vendor of that cr*p* didn't get th eunderlying nameserver working correctly at all." Terry responds that uSoft may have done that intentionally, since they'd rather you run WINS instead of DNS. In other words, he was making a specific reply to a specific comment of yours. >Then why don't you do it and import the configuration to your UNIX >box? I'd like to see it, if only to pick holes in it. How do you set >up a HINFO RR? An ISDN RR? Most people don't need to set up an ISDN RR. I don't even know what that is. I certainly don't have one. Few people seem to bother setting up an HINFO RR these days. I don't, I think. But it's certainly easy enough to set up. Of coruse, since Paul wants to have BIND handle arbitrary resource records, it's unlikely that any front-end interface is going to be able to handle all cases. That doesn't invalidate Terry's point. Replies sent to me and the list will be returned to the sender -- learn to edit your headers. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 20:50:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03927 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03922 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 20:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA08891; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:20:01 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970928132001.01645@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:20:01 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Chuck Robey Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nate Williams , Richard Wackerbarth , Eivind Eklund , Eivind Eklund , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: How do I check out a snapshot? References: <27433.875415356@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Sun, Sep 28, 1997 at 11:15:33AM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Following up to -chat) On Sun, Sep 28, 1997 at 11:15:33AM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >>> I think you mistake his intent, Nate. I think he meant it this way. The >>> RE updates his tree, writes down the date/time that it's updated to. He >> >> The RE in this case is a script. Just keep that in mind. :) > > I thought everyone was agreed that "Jordan" was an AI program? No, you're thinking of Terry :-) That was decided long ago. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 21:54:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06495 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06490 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA21135; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:02:57 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:02:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709280502.XAA21135@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: DNS vs. GUI? (was: Microsoft brainrot...) In-Reply-To: <19970928101941.03210@lemis.com> References: <19970927143934.ZN26834@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com> <19970928101941.03210@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert opined: % UNIX users are, as a class, intellectual elitists who don't % undertand that the average I.Q. is 100 because that is how a 100 I.Q. % is defined. And as a class, they are unprepared to make the necessary % allowances. There's a good reason a moron can run Microsoft OS's: so % that that morons won't be too intimidated to buy them. And this coming from Terry. Amusing. I think you're dead wrong, Terry. I see UNIX users, as a class, as intellectual elitists who completely understand that the average I.Q. is 100 because that is defined as average, and refuse to let this fact interrupt their pursuit of "better." Am I supposed to tie 76 IQ points behind my back every time I sit down at my computer? ;^) Anyone who thinks a computing platform designed for the average U.S. office worker is also suitable for advanced software development, serving web pages, and running games is an absolute idiot. That's like saying that a Pinto station wagon is the perfect wheeled vehicle for picking up groceries, delivering sand and gravel to the cement plant, exploring the surface of another planet, and racing in a grand prix. Greg Lehey writes: > Well, again I'd say wrong on both counts. Morons can't run > Microsoft's OSs. Even people of normal intelligence (whom I think I > can understand quite well) feel intimidated by them. That's not to > say, of course, that they don't feel intimidated by UNIX as well. Er, yes. Exactly. There seems to be this common belief that since Virus95 and NT are both "just Windows" that anybody can administer and/or develop software for them. Bzzzt! Amazing how many horror stories there are in the industry based on these two commonly held beliefs. It's even more amazing how difficult it is to change the minds of the dipshits who made the mistake in the first place! Let me iterate: 1) Administering a farm of NT Workstations is more graphical than a similar number of UNIX workstations, but no less work. In fact, it's quite a bit more work, because Microsoft has done nothing to make it possible to administer them as a whole. I understand this is changing significantly in NT 5.0, and it's about time. UNIX has a few tricks up it's sleeve in this area, but not nearly enough. NIS was conceptually a step in the right direction, but is a poor architecture to rely on. 2) Assiging "Windows" programmers to write server applications is a sure recipe for failure. If you are developing network server code, regardless of the platform, you need someone who understands the realm of network servers. This does not generally include someone who learned to program using VC++ (or even Turbo/Borland) and thinks of a network connection as a slow disk drive. [much argument about setting up DNS via a gui ensues...] % It's a hell of a lot easier than running an editor and % shelling out to a man page every five minutes, or worse, shelling out % money for an O'Reilly book, which is made necessary by all the bogus % complexity associated with the task, and trying to balance the thing % on your knees while typing in secret code words. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THIS HERE? You *all* *STILL* seem to have missed the point. The problem with the Microsoft GUI is not that they're using a GUI for a complex task, but that they're using the GUI *poorly*. All they've done is stick a couple of really stupid dialog boxes on top of the configuration file, which doesn't really add any value. In case you wonder why I'm shouting, WE JUST HAD THIS DISCUSSION (vis a vis users and groups) A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO! Now listen up, children: The "standard" DNS server setups are organized by record type, because that is how DNS was developed. The record types evolved over time, new ones were added, but everyone seems to have missed a critical point here: what DNS *really does* is describe some *OBJECTS*. In the case of DNS, the objects described are DOMAINS and HOSTS. Now, why don't we trash all of the record types and listboxes and such and design a DNS configuration tool that displays these in a meaningful manner? Including a reasonable inheritance mechanism, so that when you place host "foo" within domain "bar.com", if no "Mail Exchanger" attribute is specified for "foo", it will inherit the one from "bar.com". Need I mention that once you're done, you can probably sell it for quite a bit of money? (Hmmm. This might be the application I've been looking for to *really* learn Java. Where's that Visual Cafe, dag nabbit?) > To be fair, I think that O'Reilly's DNS book is too confusing. TCP/IP > Network administration will give you more info that any Microsoft toy > config tool can. Yeah, but if you really wanna see a neat DNS server, check out the "Instant IP" feature in the Internet Station. Talk about zero administration: the DNS server lets the workstation tell it what the "hostname" is: http://www.dayna.com/dayna/products/istation/instantip.html % For something designed by a bunch of bonifide computer scientists, % you'd think they would be able to grasp the concept of putting % configuration databases in third normal form. 8-|. > Who are you talking about here? Database theory. Something Terry knows just enough about to shoot at people who know *nothing* about it. If Terry knew a little more about database theory, he'd realize that almost *no* working databases get past the second normal form because nobody but database experts can spend enough time to work the entire database into the third normal form. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 22:14:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07381 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asa1.asan.com (asa1.asan.com [206.20.111.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07376 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp48.asan.com (ppp48.asan.com [206.20.111.48]) by asa1.asan.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id aa420394 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:12:40 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970928011135.01038abc@asan.com> X-Sender: bugtraq@asan.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:11:35 -0400 To: Wes Peters , Greg Lehey From: WaiKin Wong Subject: Re: DNS vs. GUI? (was: Microsoft brainrot...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199709280502.XAA21135@obie.softweyr.ml.org> References: <19970928101941.03210@lemis.com> <19970927143934.ZN26834@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com> <19970928101941.03210@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To sum it completely, a GOOD administrator, programmer, etc is hard to find. Computers don't run themselves. So, get good people to run whatever system you have. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 22:14:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07411 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07404 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04673; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:41:55 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199709280511.OAA04673@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wes Peters cc: Greg Lehey , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DNS vs. GUI? (was: Microsoft brainrot...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:02:57 CST." <199709280502.XAA21135@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:41:52 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Now, why don't we trash all of the record types and listboxes and such > and design a DNS configuration tool that displays these in a meaningful > manner? Including a reasonable inheritance mechanism, so that when you > place host "foo" within domain "bar.com", if no "Mail Exchanger" > attribute is specified for "foo", it will inherit the one from > "bar.com". Need I mention that once you're done, you can probably sell > it for quite a bit of money? > > (Hmmm. This might be the application I've been looking for to *really* > learn Java. Where's that Visual Cafe, dag nabbit?) Oops. I should just finish that named-format parsing code I was writing for Juliet and let you write the frontend for it. Are you serious about this? I am. > Database theory. Something Terry knows just enough about to shoot at > people who know *nothing* about it. If Terry knew a little more about > database theory, he'd realize that almost *no* working databases get > past the second normal form because nobody but database experts can > spend enough time to work the entire database into the third normal > form. ;^) Oi! I wrote some Tcl to help 2NF -> 3NF for an assignment earlier this semester. Part of the problem this highlighted is that unless you're real careful in your earlier specification (especially naming things) your database ultimately sucks no matter what form its in. 8) mike (and where's my commentary? You've had all day and more! 8) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 22:16:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07517 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07458 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA21150; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:23:11 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:23:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709280523.XAA21150@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Sean Eric Fagan CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) In-Reply-To: <199709280254.TAA20632@kithrup.com> References: <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com> <19970928101941.03210.kithrup.freebsd.chat@lemis.com> <199709280254.TAA20632@kithrup.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan writes: > But writing a Tk-based program to do it takes less. I've got someone who > wants to do it -- he is simply lacking in time. A bit of prodding, and he > may be willing to make time to do it. ("it" in this case is a GUI interface > to the real-time named editing that Paul has put into BIND 8.something -- so > you don't edit the host files any longer, you can have named edit them for > you. There are some obvious security implications, of course.) Yeah, and the Tk program *could* be a great deal more portable. I think Tcl/Tk is idea for this type of work. The result would probably be slightly more ugly than say, C++, but still manageable. Please forward my e-mail address on to your "somebody," with a request that he contact me via e-mail. I'd like to correspond with him on this subject if he is at all interested. > "The experienced user will know what to do." > > Most people don't need all that information; most people just need to set up > a fairly standard configuration. That's what the "friendly" tools are for. > And the files are still editable for the people who know what they are > doing, and what they want. > > Having a simple "create a standardized named.boot, .zone, and > .rev file" shell script, which would ask a couple of questions, > would suffice in Terry's case. Of course, he could write that shell script > pretty easily, and submit it. Except, of course, that people have this > tendency to just reject anything Terry says *because* it's from Terry :). Well, I've known Terry long enough, and personally enough, to never discredit what he says without careful consideration. As I said in my previous message, though, I do think both he and Greg missed the point by 90 degrees. It's not a question of GUI vs. editor, it's a question of representing the data the user as a meaningful set, which is not something any of the commonly available DNS tools currently do. > And if 99.99% of the computer users can't understand the question, what > makes you think they'll want to fiddle with the bits that the GUI program > doesn't allow them to? Good point. Perhaps we're asking the wrong questions? ;^) > I don't know my license plate. > > I know what my car looks like, and I remember vaguely where I parked it. Oh, your car is an object, with distinctive physical characteristics, and you recognize it by those characteristics. In the world of human interface designers, this is quite important. Unfortunately, the computer crowd seems to have skipped over this important fact, favoring long strings of alphanumerics with silly rules about placement instead. > This caused me a problem, once, when there was someone parked an identical > car next to mine (same year, colour, model, and transmission type -- only > difference was that this imposter car had some rosary beads hanging from the > rear-view mirror, which I noticed just as I put the key in the lock). So you had to "zoom" in order to differentiate the objects? See how we can make our user interfaces really mimic the real world? (Jeez, I'm enjoying this.) > What that has to do with anything, I don't know -- you're refusing to see > Terry's point, possibly because it's Terry, and Terry is going on about a > grand unified field theory when he could have solved the special relativity > problem and gotten his nobel prize by now. :) Greg said: % Then why don't you do it and import the configuration to your UNIX % box? I'd like to see it, if only to pick holes in it. How do you set % up a HINFO RR? An ISDN RR? > Most people don't need to set up an ISDN RR. I don't even know what that > is. I certainly don't have one. > > Few people seem to bother setting up an HINFO RR these days. I don't, I > think. But it's certainly easy enough to set up. Many "organizations" disallow HINFOs because they can be a security breach. Ex: hacker does 'nslookup -type=hinfo foo.bar.com', discovers it is a FooStation 1100 running Foonix 7.11. He pokes around, discovers Foonix 7.11 has that awful 11:00 p.m. ftp server switchover bug, and breaks in. You've just published to him how to break into your server. The DNS configuration would ideally be configurable enough to remove these from existing databases and mark fields as "forbidden", so new and/or naive users wouldn't inadvertantly violate security policy. On the other hand, wouldn't it be nifty to shift-click (or right-click, or whatever) on the "foo" object within the "bar.com" domain view and see all the possible attributes of "foo." Including those that are not specified, and those inherited from "bar.com", displayed in some special manner to indicate they are inherited? > Of coruse, since Paul wants to have BIND handle arbitrary resource records, > it's unlikely that any front-end interface is going to be able to handle all > cases. Unless, of course, you allow the front-end interface to generate arbitrary RRs as well. This shouldn't be all that difficult. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 22:37:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08272 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elmira.functional.com (grail@elmira.functional.com [198.82.216.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08267 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 22:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grail@localhost) by elmira.functional.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA10370; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 05:36:57 GMT Message-ID: <19970928053655.29651@functional.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 05:36:55 +0000 From: Giao Nguyen To: Wes Peters Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DNS vs. GUI? (was: Microsoft brainrot...) References: <19970927143934.ZN26834@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com> <19970928101941.03210@lemis.com> <199709280502.XAA21135@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: <199709280502.XAA21135@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Sat, Sep 27, 1997 at 11:02:57PM -0600 X-Saying: Maniacal laughter is the best medicine. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters said: > > The "standard" DNS server setups are organized by record type, because > that is how DNS was developed. The record types evolved over time, new > ones were added, but everyone seems to have missed a critical point > here: what DNS *really does* is describe some *OBJECTS*. In the case of > DNS, the objects described are DOMAINS and HOSTS. This can be extended to match a lot of other data in your run of the mill Unix box. Users, groups, user classes, filesystems table, disk paritioning, etc. Creating a GUI application to manage these types of data is not a bad idea. However, the trick is representing the data correctly. I recently played with Digital Unix's dtadvfs utility. It took me forever to understand its representation of data. However, in 15 minutes I got a good enough understanding to add a slice into a advfs domain, without knowing a damn thing about the disk geometry. There are three problem domains in designing an interface for anything: * representation * mapping of real world to the representation * audience (erm, user competency) I don't want to sound like an HCI weenie because I'm not. HOWEVER, the closer you bring these two things together the better life will be. I for one, would *love* to see GUI utilities for administration of FreeBSD boxes out there. Would I use it? Not unless I had too. These tools should exist for those who are new to get up to speed, not meant as *the* interface for the guru's to use. We can finally get rid of that ridiculous argument of "Windows makes it so much easier ... " It doesn't matter what the interface is, as long as it makes sense. To me, DNS is a database. If you build a database utility that turns its data into DNS resource records then you're set. SQL -> BIND. Or Motif -> BIND. It doesn't matter. For large scale maintenance of BIND, vi is a lousy tool either way. For large scale anything, vi is a lousy tool. We're talking process automation here. Let's just drop this argument about GUI's. Let's just focus on tools to automate processes. We've got pw(8) for accounts. Why not something similar for other sort of tasks? (Why do I get the feeling I just asked for it?) -- Giao Nguyen From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 23:20:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10432 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10416 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA29879 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:20:30 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA00373; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:01:09 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970928080109.EQ30412@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:01:09 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) References: <19970927143934.ZN26834@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com> <19970928101941.03210@lemis.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19970928101941.03210@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sep 28, 1997 10:19:41 +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Greg Lehey wrote: > (following up to -chat) (Well, i decided to not followup to Terry's article at all...) > >> And finally, using the shicky-micky listbox interface usually screws > >> the nameserver setup at all. > > > > But it's easy. Ease of use cannot be abused to justify a non-functional program. Functionality must come first, and a nifty user interface might follow once the functionality is there (and reasonably bug-free). While i accept that Unix often fails to continue to #2 at all, Mickeysoft normally fails step #1, and immediately proceeds to #2. I understand that ``this sells better'', but we are not here to sell something, nor are we here to justify sales droids. It's really only an incident that these nameservers work at all, and they only work if you're putting your local machine name into the SOA record -- in all other cases, any nameserver on the world refuses to accept zone transfers from these broken servers since they don't claim to be authoritative. And, they even got step #2 wrong, in that using the user interface often enough breaks the entire nameserver. Sometimes it's no longer answering after hitting some button there, another time it doesn't pick up the changes made, yet another time it changes options itself (like removing the `forwarders' functionality). One of our customers is running several offices with this cr*p (they didn't have a Unix machine in each office to run named on), and we came to the conclusion of recommending them to never use the shicky-micky interface, but only edit the zone files manually. Fortunately, they didn't re-invent the wheel regarding zone files. Still, the major bug remains that these servers don't claim to be authoritative. > Then why don't you do it and import the configuration to your UNIX > box? I'd like to see it, if only to pick holes in it. It probably would work. Anyway, i can't understand why someone would go through this kind of pretty-looking but slow to use UI when setting up a nameserver is normally a matter of ten minutes. You need to understand what the various DNS RRs are for anyway, or the hell will break loose. But, once you understood, you could write the files with the editor of your choice as well. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 23:35:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11265 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11255 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA09237; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:05:30 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970928160530.00335@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:05:30 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Sean Eric Fagan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) References: <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com>; <19970928101941.03210.kithrup.freebsd.chat@lemis.com> <199709280254.TAA20632@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199709280254.TAA20632@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Sat, Sep 27, 1997 at 07:54:33PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Sep 27, 1997 at 07:54:33PM -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >>> If you make it grammar-based, you write it once, and it works for a >>> crudload of command line configurators that know how to be run over >>> pipes. Like disk partition tools, install tools, etc.. >> Correct. But why? > > I dunno 'bout you, but I hate having to partition drives using 'disklabel > -e'. Fortunately, I don't add new drives all that often, and it can be done > now using /stand/sysinstall. Agreed. This is a different case, however: 1. It's a thing that requires relatively little data, but it's difficult to get: you can't just write it down, you need to calculate it. 2. The alternative to sysinstall is a collection of tools which can't agree with each other about the geometry of most disks. I haven't even been able to determine which is most often right. DNS is a different matter. I don't see how you can change the fact that there's a lot of repetitive information in there. If you have 100 systems, and you have to change the IP address, your choices are: 1. With a GUI, I contend that you have to go in and change each one individually. Sure, it's possible to write a GUI which will handle this example, but each such example has to be programmed individually. 2. With the current config file mechanism, you just go in with an editor and do a block change. >> How do you find out your configuration with this horrible, >> complicated, you-only-see-as-much-at-a-time-as-I-want-to-show- >> you-and-make-sure-you-keep-alternating-from-keyboard-to-mouse Motif >> application once you have entered your initial configuration? > > "The experienced user will know what to do." I hope you noticed I was talking about the GUI :-) > Having a simple "create a standardized named.boot, .zone, and > .rev file" shell script, which would ask a couple of questions, > would suffice in Terry's case. Of course, he could write that shell script > pretty easily, and submit it. Except, of course, that people have this > tendency to just reject anything Terry says *because* it's from Terry :). I don't think that's fair. On the whole, I tend to agree with Terry (this case being an obvious exception). But, as somebody commented a while back, we don't often see finished code from him. >> Wrong on both counts. 99.99% of the computer users in the world don't >> understand the question -- which is why they are MS users instead of >> UNIX. In fact, I'm very surprised to find you defending this >> position. > > And if 99.99% of the computer users can't understand the question, what > makes you think they'll want to fiddle with the bits that the GUI program > doesn't allow them to? Nothing. In fact, I'd guess that, despite the GUI, they'll screw up the configuration and run on regardless. >> Then why don't you do it and import the configuration to your UNIX >> box? I'd like to see it, if only to pick holes in it. How do you set >> up a HINFO RR? An ISDN RR? > > Most people don't need to set up an ISDN RR. I don't even know what that > is. I certainly don't have one. I'd guess that you have that in common with most people. But if you wanted one, how would you do it with a GUI developed by somebody who also didn't know what they were? > Few people seem to bother setting up an HINFO RR these days. I don't, I > think. But it's certainly easy enough to set up. Sure. With an editor. How do you do it with a GUI if the author hasn't provided for it. > Of coruse, since Paul wants to have BIND handle arbitrary resource records, > it's unlikely that any front-end interface is going to be able to handle all > cases. > > That doesn't invalidate Terry's point. > > Replies sent to me and the list will be returned to the sender -- learn to > edit your headers. OK, go ahead. I consider it courtesy to mention the person I'm replying to directly. And I don't have a GUI thingamabob to edit the headers :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 23:42:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11647 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11637 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA09269; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:12:37 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970928161237.59302@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:12:37 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Explicitly not Sean Eric Fagan Subject: Re: Microsoft brainrot (was: r-cmds and DNS and /etc/host.conf) References: <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com> <19970928101941.03210.kithrup.freebsd.chat@lemis.com> <199709280254.TAA20632@kithrup.com> <199709280523.XAA21150@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199709280523.XAA21150@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Sat, Sep 27, 1997 at 11:23:11PM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Sep 27, 1997 at 11:23:11PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Sean Eric Fagan writes: >> Most people don't need all that information; most people just need to set up >> a fairly standard configuration. That's what the "friendly" tools are for. >> And the files are still editable for the people who know what they are >> doing, and what they want. Yes, but are they? I don't have a problem with people having a GUI if it makes things easier for them. The trouble is, it makes peopl >> >> Having a simple "create a standardized named.boot, .zone, and >> .rev file" shell script, which would ask a couple of questions, >> would suffice in Terry's case. Of course, he could write that shell script >> pretty easily, and submit it. Except, of course, that people have this >> tendency to just reject anything Terry says *because* it's from Terry :). > > Well, I've known Terry long enough, and personally enough, to never > discredit what he says without careful consideration. As I said in my > previous message, though, I do think both he and Greg missed the point > by 90 degrees. It's not a question of GUI vs. editor, it's a question > of representing the data the user as a meaningful set, which is not > something any of the commonly available DNS tools currently do. > >> And if 99.99% of the computer users can't understand the question, what >> makes you think they'll want to fiddle with the bits that the GUI program >> doesn't allow them to? > > Good point. Perhaps we're asking the wrong questions? ;^) > >> I don't know my license plate. >> >> I know what my car looks like, and I remember vaguely where I parked it. > > Oh, your car is an object, with distinctive physical characteristics, > and you recognize it by those characteristics. In the world of human > interface designers, this is quite important. Unfortunately, the > computer crowd seems to have skipped over this important fact, favoring > long strings of alphanumerics with silly rules about placement instead. > >> This caused me a problem, once, when there was someone parked an identical >> car next to mine (same year, colour, model, and transmission type -- only >> difference was that this imposter car had some rosary beads hanging from the >> rear-view mirror, which I noticed just as I put the key in the lock). > > So you had to "zoom" in order to differentiate the objects? See how we > can make our user interfaces really mimic the real world? (Jeez, I'm > enjoying this.) > >> What that has to do with anything, I don't know -- you're refusing to see >> Terry's point, possibly because it's Terry, and Terry is going on about a >> grand unified field theory when he could have solved the special relativity >> problem and gotten his nobel prize by now. :) > > Greg said: >> Then why don't you do it and import the configuration to your UNIX >> box? I'd like to see it, if only to pick holes in it. How do you set >> up a HINFO RR? An ISDN RR? > >> Most people don't need to set up an ISDN RR. I don't even know what that >> is. I certainly don't have one. >> >> Few people seem to bother setting up an HINFO RR these days. I don't, I >> think. But it's certainly easy enough to set up. > > Many "organizations" disallow HINFOs because they can be a security > breach. Ex: hacker does 'nslookup -type=hinfo foo.bar.com', discovers it > is a FooStation 1100 running Foonix 7.11. He pokes around, discovers > Foonix 7.11 has that awful 11:00 p.m. ftp server switchover bug, and > breaks in. You've just published to him how to break into your server. > The DNS configuration would ideally be configurable enough to remove > these from existing databases and mark fields as "forbidden", so new > and/or naive users wouldn't inadvertantly violate security policy. > > On the other hand, wouldn't it be nifty to shift-click (or right-click, > or whatever) on the "foo" object within the "bar.com" domain view and > see all the possible attributes of "foo." Including those that are not > specified, and those inherited from "bar.com", displayed in some special > manner to indicate they are inherited? > >> Of coruse, since Paul wants to have BIND handle arbitrary resource records, >> it's unlikely that any front-end interface is going to be able to handle all >> cases. > > Unless, of course, you allow the front-end interface to generate > arbitrary RRs as well. This shouldn't be all that difficult. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com -- Greg Lehey LEMIS grog@lemis.com PO Box 460 Tel: +61-8-8388-8286 Echunga SA 5153 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Australia -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2i mQCNAzGpfDEAAAEEAMh6rH1c9+oKgazwGLitshrIFKFSGelccTK1fwnMw2O6SrK8 r0ttvRO42fZa8WXvlsSF1JIAqOJoaBP8HJNv6G/RA1NcKgqQKLc4RmTNnu6MoPe0 a25w25wyKOfzefJTS9dsQhWg2XJlyRo4YMtbSxDOZldq7kmga0Sj8+byVwABAAUR tBNDQyA8Y2NAbWFyY2FkZS5jb20+tAZDb250cm8= =FJvY -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 27 23:44:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11734 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11691 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA09283; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:13:52 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970928161352.36886@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:13:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Apologies (Was: Microsoft brainrot) References: <199709272127.OAA11524@usr08.primenet.com> <19970928101941.03210.kithrup.freebsd.chat@lemis.com> <199709280254.TAA20632@kithrup.com> <199709280523.XAA21150@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199709280523.XAA21150@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Sat, Sep 27, 1997 at 11:23:11PM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk That's the third unfinished message I send out today. My apologies. I think I'll shut up for a day or so. Greg