From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 10:51:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06157 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:51:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06149 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:51:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA24028 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:50:58 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id TAA15820; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:45:44 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971116194544.QQ53513@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:45:44 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <3466F8C4.1A3F3A1A@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> <14438.879157439@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <14438.879157439@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Nov 10, 1997 02:23:59 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Perhaps it's merely your poor command of english at fault (and I > really have great difficulty even understanding half of what you say) > but it didn't look like you were doing anything more than slamming > FreeBSD - ... Well, that's -chat here: Jordan, is your Ukrainian better than his English? :-)) (Your German is most likely better, i know. My Russian is probably worse than Ruslan's English, even though i've learnt it in school.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 12:32:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12884 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua ([195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12876 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:32:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02367; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:31:33 GMT Message-ID: <346F5824.86053645@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:31:32 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joerg Wunsch CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Oracle & FreeBSD [Was: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <3466F8C4.1A3F3A1A@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> <14438.879157439@time.cdrom.com> <19971116194544.QQ53513@uriah.heep.sax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > ? Perhaps it's merely your poor command of english at fault (and I > ? really have great difficulty even understanding half of what you say) > ? but it didn't look like you were doing anything more than slamming > ? FreeBSD - ... > > Well, that's -chat here: Jordan, is your Ukrainian better than his > English? :-)) > > (Your German is most likely better, i know. My Russian is probably > worse than Ruslan's English, even though i've learnt it in school.) > > -- Jordan is not try to write on Ukrainion ;) About Oracle: If anybody interests, i begin to write RPC-bridge for Oracle OCI, now two functions (olog ? olof) work. After it would be complete, perl::DBD modules will be work with Oracle. (and tcl and few C++ class libraries). But this work is in "background" mode, so I can not say, when it will be finished. Now, we move services, which must interact with Oracle, to SCO. > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 15:47:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23940 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:47:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (ppp-79.toiyabe.com [207.92.38.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23932 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:46:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@jkh.cdrom.com) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by jkh.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00247; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:46:41 -0800 (PST) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:45:44 +0100." <19971116194544.QQ53513@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:46:41 -0800 Message-ID: <244.879724001@jkh.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, that's -chat here: Jordan, is your Ukrainian better than his > English? :-)) If I ever join any Ukranian mailing lists and need to make myself understood in that language, I'll let you know. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 16:28:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25835 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25815 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA17751 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:28:24 -0700 Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:27:52 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: <244.879724001@jkh.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Well, that's -chat here: Jordan, is your Ukrainian better than his > > English? :-)) > > If I ever join any Ukranian mailing lists and need to make > myself understood in that language, I'll let you know. :) > > Jordan Who knows, maybe the English language has reached its zenith. I have actually found myself a few times wanting to read foreign language websites and being aware of my complete lack of language skills. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, Americans working in the areas of physics, aerodynamics, chemistry and chemical engineering often had to _learn_ German (not just pass an exam) in order to keep up with developments. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 18:46:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04685 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 18:46:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04680 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 18:46:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-211.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.211]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA08161; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:46:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA00283; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:28:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711170228.UAA00283@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Mark Mayo cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Alex , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? In-reply-to: Message from Mark Mayo of "Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:42:25 EST." <19971116154225.31523@vmunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:28:51 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Moved to -chat: > So everyone go out and grab the client at www.distributed.net/rc5/ and > configure it to report as email team-freebsd@circle.net if you want to > help out. www.circle.net/team-freebsd/ has more info. No! No! No! The rules changed for RC5-64. You are supposed to report your *real* email address. Then use their web page to assign your contributions to a team. The problem was tracking down the real machine that solved the puzzle thru dynamic IP addresses. So now they want your real email address. Also by using your real email address you can check on your personal status with their stats page AND check on your team's. So what team number is FreeBSD? And a suggestion: run "./rc564 -c [0-5] -benchmark" for each CPU type then hardcode the best with item 15 in "./rc564 -config". Don't trust the auto detect. My PPro usually auto-selects type 1, 386/486, which is plainly wrong and not as good. I crunched the first couple of weeks incorrectly optimized. At least it was the 2nd best setting: CPU type desc kkeys/sec 0 Pentium 406 1 386/486 422 2 PPro & II 461 3 AMD 486 405 4 AMD K5 380 5 AMD K6 334 On day I'll try overclocking. How's that done? My bus speed jumpers are set for 66 MHz and the multiplier is 2.5, for 166 MHz. What do I do? Is it so simple as to lie and claim its a 200 MHz CPU by using a 3.0 multiplier? MB is an Asus P6NP5 and my CPU is auto-setting its voltage. Does the PPro have any kind of thermal protection or detection? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 19:47:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07573 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:47:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07563 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:47:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net (tnt2-119.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.119]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA20534 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:47:47 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <346FBE96.167EB0E7@hiwaay.net> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:48:38 -0600 From: Steve Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? References: <199711170228.UAA00283@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk BTW, does anybody know how I can get a box that does not have a direct connection to the internet working on a set of keys? There's a dual P6-180 NT box at work that I would love to throw into the mix. This box is connected to a FreeBSD box that acts as our server (files/mail/etc.) at work. The FreeBSD box has a dialup PPP connection and gets assigned a dynamic IP. In fact, it is out there somewhere chugging away on keys right now. :) But it sure would be nice to have a M$ box looking for keys in an effort to advance FreeBSD's cause. Thanks, Steve From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 19:51:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07805 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:51:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07793 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:51:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA09841; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:08:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:08:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711170408.VAA09841@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Tim Vanderhoek CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad Winds of Winter - Please Read! In-Reply-To: References: <199711150307.WAA01607@dyson.iquest.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek writes: > On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > I just landed in Indianapolis last night (from the Bay area), in a twin > > engine plane, with approx 5cm of slush. We had approx 10-12cm of snow > > Well, if it makes you feel any better, the official count now > puts us at 17cm of snow. :) If you guys are talking about early snowfall this year, you're apparently not aware that Solitude ski resort near here (Salt Lake City) opened a week ago yesterday (Nov 8). They currently have 28" (71 cm) of snow at the bottom of the hill. For details on "The Greatest Snow on Earth", see: http://www.skiutah.com/snowrep.html It's already snowed several times at my house (about 4300' or 1300m elevation) -- we got snow the first weekend of October. All hail El Nino! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 20:08:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08711 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:08:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08699 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:08:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA09862; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:26:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:26:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711170426.VAA09862@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Kim Culhan CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: telnet interop with SunOS and IRIX In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kim Culhan writes: > > I have been having problems when telnet to the above on a 2.2.5-RELEASE machine. > > If, when running VI, I hit several down-arrow key strokes, at some point > it begins to apparently ignore the escape char and prints an upper case > character depending on the arrow key. > > With the Sun machine for instance, if I hit down-arrow it will, after a > few keys, begin to print an upper case 'B' after this point for each > press. > > In the case of the IRIX 5.3 machine, it won't allow any arrow keys at all. > It just returns a BEL character for each key press. > > If anyone has any info on this it would be very greatly appreciated. Sounds like your terminal is set to something close but not exactly the same as what it really is. This is pretty common with "ansi" style terminals. If you're logging in from an xterm, make sure your TERM environment variable is set to "xterm" and the rows and columns, as showed by 'stty -a', are correct. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 20:37:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10257 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:37:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10250 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15776; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:37:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id WAA18742; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:36:55 -0600 Message-ID: <19971116223655.54597@right.PCS> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:36:55 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? References: <199711170228.UAA00283@nospam.hiwaay.net> <346FBE96.167EB0E7@hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <346FBE96.167EB0E7@hiwaay.net>; from Steve Price on Nov 11, 1997 at 09:48:38PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 11, 1997 at 09:48:38PM -0600, Steve Price wrote: > BTW, does anybody know how I can get a box that does not have > a direct connection to the internet working on a set of keys? > There's a dual P6-180 NT box at work that I would love to throw > into the mix. Also, what is the best way to get things working from behind a firewall? I have a few boxes behind a machine running the TIS fwtk, but I can't seem to get a proxy connection through. Web browsers, cvsup, etc work, but not rc5. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 21:19:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12135 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (ppp-81.toiyabe.com [207.92.38.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12129 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:19:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@jkh.cdrom.com) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by jkh.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24686; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:19:10 -0800 (PST) To: Charles Mott cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:27:52 MST." Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:19:10 -0800 Message-ID: <24684.879743950@jkh.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Who knows, maybe the English language has reached its zenith. I have > actually found myself a few times wanting to read foreign language > websites and being aware of my complete lack of language skills. Actually, if anything I'd say that english has become more of a "lingua franca" than ever. I haven't personally been to every single country in the world (yet :) but it seems that there's almost none where one can't find english spoken in some capacity if it's truly you language of last resort. 100 years ago, that was also true for French, so I think it's simply a shift in what people consider to be a reasonably common language to learn if they wish to communicate across borders. Esperanto was a nice try for this, but it appears that few wish to really learn it (with the exception of a few die-hards here and there who subscribe to Esperanto newsletters and such). A pity since English, by comparison, is a cast-iron bitch to learn if you're not a native speaker: cough, plough, dough, that sort of berzerkness abounds in this language. ;) > In the late 1800s and early 1900s, Americans working in the areas of > physics, aerodynamics, chemistry and chemical engineering often had to > _learn_ German (not just pass an exam) in order to keep up with > developments. Yep, or French if they worked in the standards bureau. I think that time is definitely past though (und das ist wirklich eine Schade :-). Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 21:30:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12549 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:30:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (ppp-81.toiyabe.com [207.92.38.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12544 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:30:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@jkh.cdrom.com) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by jkh.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00346; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:30:04 -0800 (PST) To: David Kelly cc: Mark Mayo , Poul-Henning Kamp , Alex , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:28:51 CST." <199711170228.UAA00283@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:29:59 -0800 Message-ID: <341.879744599@jkh.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On day I'll try overclocking. How's that done? My bus speed jumpers are > set for 66 MHz and the multiplier is 2.5, for 166 MHz. What do I do? Is > it so simple as to lie and claim its a 200 MHz CPU by using a 3.0 > multiplier? MB is an Asus P6NP5 and my CPU is auto-setting its voltage. Yep. I have both of my P6s (single and dual) set to 3.5 for 233Mhz and it works just peachy. I did some benchmarks at 180, 200 and 233 and the overclocking definitely makes a measurable difference, as one would hope and expect. > Does the PPro have any kind of thermal protection or detection? Yes. Apparently if they get too hot, they simply shut down until they're cool again. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 21:34:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12818 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:34:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (ppp-81.toiyabe.com [207.92.38.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12811 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:34:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@jkh.cdrom.com) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by jkh.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01480; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:32:05 -0800 (PST) To: David Kelly cc: Mark Mayo , Poul-Henning Kamp , Alex , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:28:51 CST." <199711170228.UAA00283@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:32:03 -0800 Message-ID: <1467.879744723@jkh.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On day I'll try overclocking. How's that done? My bus speed jumpers are > set for 66 MHz and the multiplier is 2.5, for 166 MHz. What do I do? Is P.S. Both of my successful overclocks were with the 256K cache P6 parts. I've heard that people have somewhat less success with the 512K caches as, obviously, there's more cache to get annoyed with you as you push it past its rated specs. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 21:35:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12899 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from abby.skypoint.net (abby.skypoint.net [199.86.32.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12894 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bruce@zuhause.mn.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by abby.skypoint.net (8.8.7/jl 1.3) with UUCP id XAA10840; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:35:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from bruce@localhost) by zuhause.mn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02148; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:34:04 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:34:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711170534.XAA02148@zuhause.mn.org> From: Bruce Albrecht To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Steve Price , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? In-Reply-To: <19971116223655.54597@right.PCS> References: <199711170228.UAA00283@nospam.hiwaay.net> <346FBE96.167EB0E7@hiwaay.net> <19971116223655.54597@right.PCS> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "New York" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan Lemon writes: > On Nov 11, 1997 at 09:48:38PM -0600, Steve Price wrote: > > BTW, does anybody know how I can get a box that does not have > > a direct connection to the internet working on a set of keys? > > There's a dual P6-180 NT box at work that I would love to throw > > into the mix. > > Also, what is the best way to get things working from behind a > firewall? I have a few boxes behind a machine running the TIS > fwtk, but I can't seem to get a proxy connection through. Web > browsers, cvsup, etc work, but not rc5. If you don't have a direct connection, you might want to try running a copy of rc564 in a second directory with just -fetch to get the blocks, and then ftp buff-in.rc5 file to the NT box. When it's done, ftp the buff-out.rc5 file back and do an rc564 -flush. I don't know for sure that it will work, but you could try it with a small set of blocks, and if it doesn't work, run the blocks again on your freebsd box. I'm able to run the Solaris client via a firewall by telling it to talk to my firewall proxy in http mode. I can send a copy of my ini file tomorrow. I have a dual CPU P6-200, and I can do about 340 blocks/day (537472.57 keys/sec). I'm also running it on about 30-40 sparc 5's at night and all weekend. If I recall correctly, it takes about 9 sparc 5's to do as many keys as my SMP P6. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 16 23:02:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17417 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:02:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17398 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:02:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.1/nospam) with UUCP id IAA28535 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:01:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.8/keltia-2.13/nospam) id HAA02987; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:45:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971117074508.30373@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:45:08 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? References: <199711170228.UAA00283@nospam.hiwaay.net> <346FBE96.167EB0E7@hiwaay.net> <19971116223655.54597@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19971116223655.54597@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 10:36:55PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3818 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jonathan Lemon: > fwtk, but I can't seem to get a proxy connection through. Web > browsers, cvsup, etc work, but not rc5. The current clients supports HHTP and can be proxyied. My client at work is using this method. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #49: Sat Nov 15 20:03:33 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 01:26:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27195 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:26:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27190 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:26:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA05598 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:26:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:26:22 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: <24684.879743950@jkh.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Actually, if anything I'd say that english has become more of a > "lingua franca" than ever. I haven't personally been to every single > country in the world (yet :) but it seems that there's almost none > where one can't find english spoken in some capacity if it's truly you > language of last resort. 100 years ago, that was also true for > French, so I think it's simply a shift in what people consider to be a > reasonably common language to learn if they wish to communicate across > borders. Esperanto was a nice try for this, but it appears that > few wish to really learn it (with the exception of a few die-hards > here and there who subscribe to Esperanto newsletters and such). > A pity since English, by comparison, is a cast-iron bitch to learn > if you're not a native speaker: cough, plough, dough, that sort > of berzerkness abounds in this language. ;) I think the spread of English as everyone's second language is pretty much a consequence of the outcome of the Second World War, after which English became the language of air traffic control, diplomacy, science, military matters (NATO), and so forth; and during these years the United States was (and still is) the world's largest single market for the exports of other countries. When the Soviet empire collapsed with the fall of the wall in 1989, and the Soviet Union itself collapsed at the end of 1991, English instead of Russian made a big jump in being the second language of the countries of the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. There was a dramatic shift from Russian to English in hours taught in school, etc. Quite a few people, though, learned English secretly from the broadcasts of the BBC or Radio Liberty. Some students who played significant roles in the transition of Communist countries to capitalism and democracy learned their economics secretly from photocopies of textbooks in English. In other words, we won a couple of big ones, a hot one and a cold one. It's useful for people to agree on what they're going to use as a second language. Although English is difficult in some respects, it's also easier than some languages in terms of understanding the spoken language (easier than French, for example); it's extremely flexible in adoption of vocabulary and creating new words, and there are no "authorities" who object to such developments; and it is less inflected than many languages, using word order and additional words rather than word endings to indicate relationships (subject, object, indirect object, etc.), and may in this respect be relatively easier. Spelling, of course, is difficult. Verbs must be a nightmare. But-- I think native English speakers are quite willing to figure out what people using English as a second language are trying to say and are a lot nicer about such efforts than, say, the French are about French. As we should be. English is not only "everybody's second language" on the Internet and the language people use to talk about computers; but an arresting and really quite fundamental indicator of its dominance is that it's the language computers use to talk to each other. It seems the major computer languages are "in English"--if, else, while, for, do, continue, break-- this doesn't get translated into, say, French or Russian, does it? Then the compilers would also have to be translated....what a mess that would be. I bet no one did it more than once! And a French computer speaking SMTP still says HELO and not BONJOUR, I imagine, and has an operating system that's basically in English. (But maybe there are operating systems that were written in Russian or German or whatever; I have never seen such systems mentioned.) Maybe in 20 or 30 years the language we will all want to learn as a second language will be Chinese. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 01:59:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA28867 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:59:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (csnet.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA28840 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:59:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd [132.68.32.8]) by csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA24923; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:58:19 +0200 Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA12224; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:58:54 +0200 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:58:54 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Actually, if anything I'd say that english has become more of a > > "lingua franca" than ever. I haven't personally been to every single > > country in the world (yet :) but it seems that there's almost none > > where one can't find english spoken in some capacity if it's truly you > > language of last resort. 100 years ago, that was also true for > > French, so I think it's simply a shift in what people consider to be a > > reasonably common language to learn if they wish to communicate across > > borders. Esperanto was a nice try for this, but it appears that > > few wish to really learn it (with the exception of a few die-hards > > here and there who subscribe to Esperanto newsletters and such). > > A pity since English, by comparison, is a cast-iron bitch to learn > > if you're not a native speaker: cough, plough, dough, that sort > > of berzerkness abounds in this language. ;) > > I think the spread of English as everyone's second language is pretty > much a consequence of the outcome of the Second World War, after which > English became the language of air traffic control, diplomacy, science, > military matters (NATO), and so forth; and during these years the United > States was (and still is) the world's largest single market for the > exports of other countries. > > When the Soviet empire collapsed with the fall of the wall in 1989, and > the Soviet Union itself collapsed at the end of 1991, English instead of > Russian made a big jump in being the second language of the countries of > the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. There was a dramatic shift > from Russian to English in hours taught in school, etc. Quite a few > people, though, learned English secretly from the broadcasts of the BBC > or Radio Liberty. Some students who played significant roles in the > transition of Communist countries to capitalism and democracy learned > their economics secretly from photocopies of textbooks in English. > > In other words, we won a couple of big ones, a hot one anda cold one. > > It's useful for people to agree on what they're going to use as a second > language. Although English is difficult in some respects, it's also > easier than some languages in terms of understanding the spoken language > (easier than French, for example); it's extremely flexible in adoption of > vocabulary and creating new words, and there are no "authorities" who > object to such developments; and it is less inflected than many languages, > using word order and additional words rather than wordendings to indicate > relationships (subject, object, indirect object, etc.), and may in this > respect be relatively easier. Spelling, of course, is difficult. Verbs > must be a nightmare. But-- > > I think native English speakers are quite willing to figure out > what people using English as a second language are trying to say and are > a lot nicer about such efforts than, say, the French are about French. > As we should be. > > English is not only "everybody's second language" on the Internet and the > language people use to talk about computers; but an arresting and really > quite fundamental indicator of its dominance is that it's the language > computers use to talk to each other. It seems the major computer > languages are "in English"--if, else, while, for, do, continue, break-- > this doesn't get translated into, say, French or Russian, does it? > Then the compilers would also have to be translated....what a mess > that would be. I bet no one did it more than once! And a French > computer speaking SMTPstill says HELO and not BONJOUR, I imagine, and > has an operating system that's basically in English. (But maybe there > are operating systems that were written in Russian or German or whatever; > I have never seen such systems mentioned.) Well, Microsoft thought otherwise (at least temporarily). With WFWG 3.11 the Hebrew version was fully bilingual, i.e. you could choose at install time whether you want the menus, system messages, help files, etc. in Hebrew or English. When they first started selling Win95 Hebrew Edition it was Hebrew only. They took great pride in having *everything* translated (at the GUI level - the DOS prompt still speaks DOS). The result - people couldn't understand what they were talking about because no one understood the terms Microsoft came up with for all sorts of things, some of which were really wierd. On the other hand, no computer-literate person here has any problem understanding what an IRQ line is. So, after a year and a half they were forced to come up with the Hebrew-Enabled edition that had an English GUI but supported Hebrew applications. With NT 4.0 they didn't even try to make it Hebrew all around. > > Maybe in 20 or 30 years the language we will all want to learn as a > second language will be Chinese. > > Annelise > > Nadav From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 02:21:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00402 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (ppp-78.toiyabe.com [207.92.38.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00395 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:21:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@jkh.cdrom.com) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by jkh.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA03644; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:21:02 -0800 (PST) To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:26:22 PST." Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:21:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3642.879762062@jkh.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [a number of comments on english's new dominance elided] Yep, all agreed. I often stop to congradulate myself on my extraordinary good fortune to have been born a native speaker. We americans often take this for granted, to say nothing of our occasional reluctance to even learn it well! And no cracks from the British, please, or I'll start talking about east-enders or Glaswegians. :) Sometimes I wonder if it's only the non-native speakers who truly concern themselves with proper grammar now. :) > Maybe in 20 or 30 years the language we will all want to learn as a > second language will be Chinese. Do you mean Mandarin or Cantonese? :-) Mandarin seems to be the "official" dialect and the one you'll learn at Berlitz if you sign up for their language course, but everyone I seem to meet in California speaks Cantonese. In the martial arts, for example, all of our instruction is in Cantonese (not english) and though I'm steadily increasing my vocabulary in this dialect out of necessity, I wonder how practical a skill it's going to be in the future. Anyone know the current ratio of Mandarin/Cantonese speakers world-wide? What's the official language of Hong Kong, now that it's been handed back? Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 05:25:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA10402 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 05:25:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA10397 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 05:25:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if2-21.ida.net [208.141.171.78]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id GAA18456 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:25:12 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:24:41 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: <24684.879743950@jkh.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Actually, if anything I'd say that english has become more of a > "lingua franca" than ever. I haven't personally been to every single > country in the world (yet :) but it seems that there's almost none > where one can't find english spoken in some capacity if it's truly you > language of last resort. It's true that English is now the standard second language of the world (although Russian and Mandarin are important over certain regions), and if you use computers at a detailed level, some understanding of English is absolutely necessary. It's just that I've been noticing that web pages seem to naturally adapt themselves to localization and that people will tend to revert to their native languages when it is convenient to do so. I also have this vague feeling that the Chinese are eventually going to do something really stunning in science or technology, and completely within their own culture, so that these developments will be opaque to the non-Chinese speaking world. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 06:26:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA14146 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:26:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14132 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 06:26:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199711171426.JAA21065@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:24:39 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: <3642.879762062@jkh.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > [a number of comments on english's new dominance elided] > > Yep, all agreed. I often stop to congradulate myself on my congratulate > extraordinary good fortune to have been born a native speaker. We Not a native speller however :) > Jordan Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 07:19:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA17156 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17151 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16879; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:18:02 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id JAA19678; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:17:31 -0600 Message-ID: <19971117091730.16187@right.PCS> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:17:30 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? References: <199711170228.UAA00283@nospam.hiwaay.net> <346FBE96.167EB0E7@hiwaay.net> <19971116223655.54597@right.PCS> <19971117074508.30373@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <19971117074508.30373@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Nov 11, 1997 at 07:45:08AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 11, 1997 at 07:45:08AM +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Jonathan Lemon: > > fwtk, but I can't seem to get a proxy connection through. Web > > browsers, cvsup, etc work, but not rc5. > > The current clients supports HHTP and can be proxyied. My client at work is > using this method. Yes, but it doesn't seem to work: http-gw[1263]: permit host=free.pcs use of gateway (V2.0beta) http-gw[1263]: log host=free.pcs protocol=HTTP cmd=put dest=rc5proxy.distributed.net path=/cgi-bin/rc5.cgi http-gw[1263]: exit host=free.pcs cmds=1 in=547 out=0 user=unauth duration=0 http-gw[1264]: permit host=free.pcs use of gateway (V2.0beta) http-gw[1264]: log host=free.pcs protocol=HTTP cmd=put dest=rc5proxy.distributed.net path=/cgi-bin/rc5.cgi http-gw[1264]: Network error: net_flags[4] set (read) http-gw[1264]: exit host=free.pcs code=1 The first connection to the rc5proxy works, and I get a reminder to subscribe to the mailing list, but the second connection (to get the key blocks) always fails. Is it just something with the TIS toolkit? -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 07:53:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA19691 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:53:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (dkelly@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA19684 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:52:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@fly.HiWAAY.net) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) id JAA25185; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:52:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:52:51 -0600 (CST) From: David Kelly Message-Id: <199711171552.JAA25185@fly.HiWAAY.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, sprice@HiWAAY.net Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Steve Price writes: > > BTW, does anybody know how I can get a box that does not have > a direct connection to the internet working on a set of keys? > There's a dual P6-180 NT box at work that I would love to throw > into the mix. > > This box is connected to a FreeBSD box that acts as our server > (files/mail/etc.) at work. The FreeBSD box has a dialup PPP > connection and gets assigned a dynamic IP. In fact, it is out > there somewhere chugging away on keys right now. :) But it > sure would be nice to have a M$ box looking for keys in an > effort to advance FreeBSD's cause. Download the Bovine Unix Personal Proxy Server ftp://ftp.distributed.net/pub/rc5-64/v2-proxyper/rc5proxyper-v2b251-freebsd-x86.tar.gz Then point the NT (and whatever else you have) at your own proxy server. I also point my proxy server's client at its own proxy server if for no other reason than to create a unified log of crunched blocks. Don't be shy, bite off 500 blocks at a time. As for others trying to get out thru firewalls where telnet and http works but Bovine http doesn't, try selecting the network option for "can communicate via telnet". This also works for the personal proxy server as the main backbone proxies listen on both port 23 and 2064. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) ====================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 08:24:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21948 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:24:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21939 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:24:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04809 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:24:13 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA07453; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:24:12 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:24:12 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711171624.RAA07453@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Stealable idea? [c.o.l.a] WANTED: Become a Debian Developer! Debian Mentors are waiting to help you. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Would it be an idea to steal the debian idea mentioned below? Setting up something so simple as a mailing-list where somebody could request a mentor (or perhaps just using hackers for this purpose) and a web-page that describe the concept might effectively off-load the mailing lists and increase our development speed a _lot_. Being a developer contact isn't _that_ much work, and would combined with Mark's (?) project database make it much easier to be an external contributor, and hopefully increase development speed quite a bit. Eivind. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: Bruce Perens Subject: WANTED: Become a Debian Developer! Debian Mentors are waiting to help you. Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:15:04 GMT Organization: none Reply-To: Bruce Perens Message-ID: Do you want to see your software fly on the Space Shuttle? Want to see it used in classrooms and companies everywhere? Want to give something back for all of the great free software that others have contributed? Want to be part of the best project in the free software world, with lots of smart people to work with? *** BECOME A DEBIAN DEVELOPER *** Be a technical writer, a package maintainer, or a programmer. Now, it's easier than ever to become a Debian developer, because we've set up "mentors" - experienced Debian staff who will guide you through the process. You can meet them on the Debian Mentors mailing list. To subscribe, send a message to debian-mentors-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with the word "subscribe" in the body. About the easiest way to become a developer is to adopt a software package. You can find a list of software packages that need maintainers at ftp://debian.crosslink.net/pub/debian/doc/package-developer/prospective- packages.html You can find more information in our "Developers Corner", at http://www.debian.org/developers_corner.html . Documents here include the Debian Policy Manual and the Debian Packaging Manual, key references for every Debian package maintainer. Thanks Bruce Perens Debian Project Leader - -- Can you get your operating system fixed when you need it? Linux - the supportable operating system. http://www.debian.org/support.html Bruce Perens K6BP bruce@debian.org NEW PHONE NUMBER: 510-620-3502 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 09:14:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24738 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24731 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:14:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05420 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:14:26 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA07538; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:14:25 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:14:25 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711171714.SAA07538@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Example of mentor page Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Regarding the mentoring possibility I just sent a message about - here is a suggestion for a web-page to better describe what I was talking about: %includes; ]> &header;

The intention behind The FreeBSD mentor project is to give outside parties developing from FreeBSD a channel into the formal FreeBSD development process. This is not intended to be a replacement for the normal mailing lists, but a way for outside developers to get certain way of getting timely feedback and integration.

The workings are very simple - to get a mentor, send a mail to hackers@freebsd.org with a subject of "Call for Mentor" or similar, with the body of the mail containing a small description of your interests and what kind of project you are doing or are interested in doing with FreeBSD.

The mentor will have the following responsibilites:

  1. Providing timely integration or rejection of changes.

  2. Giving information on the FreeBSD project structure where that is unclear to the mentoree.

  3. Answer questions relating to the mentorees FreeBSD devlopment project to the best of his/her ability (in the cases where it isn't obvious that this should go to a larger audience).

  4. Set the mentoree in contact with other FreeBSD developers in the cases where it is obvious that this is something that should be done in collaboration with another developer.

Aquiring a mentor will of course not free the mentoree from their normal responsibility of attempting to gain knowledge from documentation and source before contacting using other people's time. A mentor can reject a mentoree at any point (how could we stop this?), but should not do this without a good reason. Examples of reasons include abuse of the mentors time by the mentoree, and the mentor just plain running out of time

&footer From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 10:33:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01678 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01665 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:33:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA04579; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:33:28 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711171833.NAA04579@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: from Charles Mott at "Nov 17, 97 06:24:41 am" To: cmott@srv.net (Charles Mott) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:33:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Mott said: > > I also have this vague feeling that the Chinese are eventually going to do > something really stunning in science or technology, and completely within > their own culture, so that these developments will be opaque to the > non-Chinese speaking world. > Taking a long-term view of what languages will be valuable to communicate effectively in the world, I think that English, Chinese and Russian will be the most important to learn. This is NOT a political opinion, but an opinion that recognizes that China and Russia are both potentially HUGE economic powers, and that that the difficulties that they are having today are only passing. What I see in both China and Russia is a deliberate movement to freedom (in their own ways.) China taking a conservative and "safe" approach. (Note the quotes around "safe.") Russia is taking a more dangerous, but perhaps quicker approach. (Note the relative breakdown of the rule of law and economic system.) I think that generally, Russia can deal with the issues of feeding it's people. It think that it is also true that Russia realizes that the West will make sure that it doesn't have problems with mass starvation. Frankly, I think that the Russians won't let that happen, and over then next ten years will make amazing progress. Over time, Russia will become part of the western community, when it realizes (from a cultural standpoint, more than just intellectually as they do now) that there is now truly little to fear from the West, especially from the US. I suspect that it takes a long time to forget past wrongs. Remember that England used to be one of the worst enemies of the US, and is now it's very closest European ally. I think that China already realizes this, but China has a very different culture, and will eventually create its own form of capitalistic freedom. (Hopefully, there will be more political freedom there also -- I believe that it will have such in my lifetime.) They are likely learning from HK (even though HK isn't a perfect model of democracy either, due to it's history of being a (territory/colony/?) of UK.) In China, it appears that they have an overriding concern of maintaining the infrastructures that support life. Frankly, if there was a mass starvation problem there, it would be very very difficult for the rest of the world to make up for the lack of food. An unstable China or Russia is not good for anyone, either their own populations, or for the rest of the world. The US population needs to be able to better understand both the long term and the short term views of foreign policy. We tend to think in terms of short term, mostly due to our sensationalizing news media, and that is a terrible mistake. Both of our (large) partners in the world have huge territories, and have the brain-trust to make use of their vast resources. It is likely that English (American (US, Canadian), British (incl HK), India, and Australian) will be the most traditional mode of communication, while Russian and Chinese (the official spoken version) will be valuable, perhaps necessary for international commerce (perhaps as much or more than English.) Personally, I am probably most interested in Russian right now, and intrigued by the language and all of it's complex, but descriptive syntax. Unfortunately, my language skills are not very well (good) :-), but future generations in the US will have to be a little more open to learning, and becoming fluent in other languages. In the US and Canada, we locally need to deal with both the NA. French and NA. Spanish issues. (In US and Canada, the issues are very different though.) It is likely that in the US, we'll have to approach the issue by making English the "official" language. This is not chauvinism, but the US is just large enough to factionalize like the Quebec issues in Canada. I would like for us to avoid that problem. IMO, Quebec breaking off from the country would be disasterous, and might cause some problems with the integrity of the country. (There are rumors that the NW provinces might join with the US, or whatever, hopefully that would never have to happen.) Luckily, Canada and the US have similar but different cultures, and it seems to me that Canada and the US tend to stabilize each other. Right now, it appears that NA can remain in a stable state for a long time, and that is good. I don't want to see the wildcard of Quebec splitting off causing any instability. (People in the US DO listen to Canadian concerns carefully, and many, even conservatives like myself, consider Canada, UK, with Mexico up-and-coming, to be the most intimate and important, world partners for the US.) I am sure that it is very difficult for the American (US) foreign policy people to make sure that we don't become too predatory. (Look at the Microsoft mess, it is a problem in the US just as bad or worse than it is in the rest of the world.) In the US, we are learning that we have to understand other cultures more, and communicate better. We do tend to be to inward looking, but the same internet that is helping some parts of the world open up, is also doing similar things to the US. We are less and less dependent on the very biased news media and gov't propaganda, and that is good for everyone. (I think that the negative sides of the internet, such as Neo-Nazi, racist or severe anti-gov't groups are being emphasized by the media that has the "we know what is best for you to know" attitude in the US. It is self-serving for the media to "warn" about the evils of the Internet.) I also think that world-wide news broadcasts like CNN are also useful for the rest of the world. Believe it or not, CNN (even CNN international) is good intelligence on US politics and foreign policy. CNN is a very interesting thing, and is a great propaganda tool for the US and a great intelligence tool for the average non-NA person. It allows the avg. non-NA person to see problems in the US before it becomes their own problem :-). I also find watching the translated Russian, UK and German news broadcasts to be very valuable and educational, and I frankly don't do so enough. The American population should look more often at other world news broadcasts to see more how the rest of the (mostly free) world works politically. It would be good for us also to better understand problems in the rest of the world before they become ours. (e.g. even though the Arabs are very important to us, very few Americans, including me, understand anything about Arab cultures.) All we generally know is what the media and gov't say, and both of those institutions have their own agendas. We still have to deal with silly legends in our education system, and the notion that our society (in general) is an enlightened one is also one of those legends. Our people need to be educated more about how the world really works, and I am one who is also personally trying to do so. I sure hope that this didn't make anyone hate me, and this is far away from an appropriate agenda from FreeBSD-chat. :-). It is clear that we in the US are going to have to be more careful to ready our children for a world that is bigger than the US or even NA. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 10:35:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01783 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:35:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01626 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:32:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05663; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:32:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:32:22 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199711171832.KAA05663@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: <3642.879762062.kithrup.freebsd.chat@jkh.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:26:22 PST." Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Maybe in 20 or 30 years the language we will all want to learn as a > second language will be Chinese. I still think Gaelic is going to make a comeback as *the* language of choice for the 21st century. Of course, I also think that emacs is *the* disk repair program of choice, so I'm used to people looking at me strangely. Slan agat. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 10:35:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01859 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:35:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01851 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:35:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA04585; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:35:22 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711171835.NAA04585@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: from Nadav Eiron at "Nov 17, 97 11:58:54 am" To: nadav@cs.technion.ac.il (Nadav Eiron) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:35:22 -0500 (EST) Cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nadav Eiron said: > > The result - people > couldn't understand what they were talking about because no one understood > the terms Microsoft came up with for all sorts of things, some of which > were really wierd. > That doesn't surprise me, they do the same thing to American computer terms!!! -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 11:35:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06231 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:35:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dumbwinter.logic.it (m6.logic.it [195.120.151.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06198 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:34:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: (qmail 1359 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Nov 1997 15:18:21 -0000 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:18:19 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > It's useful for people to agree on what they're going to use > as a second language. Although English is difficult in some > respects, it's also easier than some languages in terms of > understanding the spoken language (easier than French, for > example); Well, I'm italian. I started learning english as a lingua franca, both for travelling and for technical/scientific books. Suddenly, I fell in love with it. I do like english. So clear, so concise, so self-evolving. No special grammar rules compared to languages as italian. But, Annelise, the point that spoken english is easier to understand than french, well, is at least relative. For latin people like me, french, or better yet spanish, sound "naturally" familiar. > Spelling, of course, is difficult. Verbs must be a nightmare. Strange, isn't it? I, as a non-native english speaker, find english spelling pretty simple! Also, I heard that in the USA you take something like "spelling contests" in the schools. Sounds really strange to me. Regarding the verbs, you should have a look at french, or italian, or german ;-) Cheers Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. "Whuffo you jump out of them airplanes?" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 13:18:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15953 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:18:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (pinsoft.internet.co.nz [202.37.141.181] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15940 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from tui.pinnacle.co.nz (tui.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.3]) by kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24618; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:19:25 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from localhost (jonc@localhost) by tui.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA05172; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:19:18 +1300 (NZDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tui.pinnacle.co.nz: jonc owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:19:18 +1300 (NZDT) From: Jonathan Chen To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: <3642.879762062@jkh.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Maybe in 20 or 30 years the language we will all want to learn as a > > second language will be Chinese. > > Do you mean Mandarin or Cantonese? :-) Mandarin seems to be the > "official" dialect and the one you'll learn at Berlitz if you sign up > for their language course, but everyone I seem to meet in California > speaks Cantonese. In the martial arts, for example, all of our > instruction is in Cantonese (not english) and though I'm steadily > increasing my vocabulary in this dialect out of necessity, I wonder > how practical a skill it's going to be in the future. Anyone know > the current ratio of Mandarin/Cantonese speakers world-wide? Aside from Mainland China, Taiwan and Singapore; I'd say that Cantonese will get you by in most Chinese communities in the world. What's > the official language of Hong Kong, now that it's been handed back? Officially, it's Mandarin; but almost everyone in Hong Kong speaks Cantonese. It's unlikely to change, for one thing swearing in Cantonese sounds like you really mean it, whereas swearing in Mandarin just sounds a wee bit too cultured. -- Jonathan Chen | "Vini, vidi, velcro... | I came, I saw, I stuck around" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 13:35:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17208 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:35:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17203 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin4.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.104]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA19546; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:35:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:35:00 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Julian Elischer cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD based box wins prize at COMDEX! In-Reply-To: <34709DE2.ABD322C@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > Of course we're thrilled at Whsitle, but I think the FreeBSD > Community as a whole should take a little bow and pat itself on the > back, for producing such a great base from which we could work! [moved to chat] Congratulations. Although I haven't used the Whistle box, I feel sure your award was well-earned. > > Great work.. > keep it up. We're doing what we can to make sure it's not a one-way > flow.. > > (unlike some of our competitors I might add (you listenning iplanet, > freegate, gnatbox?)) Although the FreeBSD license is on the side of personal freedom, it does have its downside. GPL, on the other hand, compels software writers to give back to the freeware community. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 14:15:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19843 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19815 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:15:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08418; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:14:47 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA08760; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:14:46 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:14:46 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711172214.XAA08760@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Julian Elischer CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Julian Elischer's message of Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:41:22 -0800 Subject: Re: FreeBSD based box wins prize at COMDEX! References: <34709DE2.ABD322C@whistle.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Of course we're thrilled at Whsitle, but I think the FreeBSD > Community as a whole should take a little bow and pat itself on the > back, for producing such a great base from which we could work! Congratulations to you (and everybody else)! > Great work.. > keep it up. We're doing what we can to make sure it's not a one-way > flow.. And you're doing a good job at it. > (unlike some of our competitors I might add (you listenning iplanet, > freegate, gnatbox?)) Contributing back is hard work, and it is (I expect) much easier to do with your own personal FreeBSD developer. Personally, I have a lot of patches sitting around in our tree that I just haven't got around to sending anywhere else yet :-( > julian > > p.s We're a bit annoyed that NT even got mentionned in OUR award.. > grrrrr > (seems that any IP based network is now called an 'NT network' in > some circles.. (Microsoft invented IP didn't it? ) At least in Windows 95/NT, it is marked as a 'Microsoft' protocol. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 14:24:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20396 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:24:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20388 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:24:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA07892; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:24:38 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711172224.RAA07892@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD based box wins prize at COMDEX! In-Reply-To: from Charles Mott at "Nov 17, 97 02:35:00 pm" To: cmott@srv.net (Charles Mott) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:24:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: julian@whistle.com, chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Mott said: > > Although the FreeBSD license is on the side of personal freedom, it does > have its downside. GPL, on the other hand, compels software writers to > give back to the freeware community. > I think that responsible companies like Whistle try to contribute back to the software pool. The GPL doesn't even guarantee the give-back. I think that using the free market, with the public knowledge that the company contributes-back is a vastly superior alternative. Freer (BSD is one of them) license terms have less of the police-state or "free if you use it the way that I want you to" mentality associated with more restrictive license terms. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 15:51:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25269 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:51:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25243 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:51:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA11046 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:50:56 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id AAA21037; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:22:31 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971118002231.VS01973@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:22:31 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <24684.879743950@jkh.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Nov 17, 1997 01:26:22 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Annelise Anderson wrote: > When the Soviet empire collapsed with the fall of the wall in 1989, and > the Soviet Union itself collapsed at the end of 1991, English instead of > Russian made a big jump in being the second language of the countries of > the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. There was a dramatic shift > from Russian to English in hours taught in school, etc. Oh, i can assure you that you're over-estimating this political event here. Yep, we've been learning Russian in school, *and* English. Most of us learned Russian rather half-heartedly anyway, perhaps in the same fashion as quite a number of people in Western Europe learn English these days. If you're forced to learn something, you often don't do it with much personal enthusiasm. My basic English knowledge is still from the communist days here, and i owe more than a beer to my English teacher from the higher school (higher than an US Highschool, i think :). I still have to find these days, that whatever failures the communist system did have, education wasn't among them. It was much better, easier affordable, and more serious than it's in the Western countries (let alone the US ;-). > It's useful for people to agree on what they're going to use as a second > language. Although English is difficult in some respects, it's also > easier than some languages in terms of understanding the spoken language > (easier than French, for example); ... English is probably about as difficult to learn for some native speaker of a Slavic (or Eastern Asian, for that matter) language as German is. For me as a German, English is relatively easy. American the more, since you Americans have borrowed quite a number or German words, like "kaput" (although misspelled, we spell it with a double-t), "fahrvergnugen" (also misspelled since you don't have umlauts, nor could you speak them anyway ;), or the worst of the words German exported into any language, "blitzkrieg". However, having learned both Russian and somewhat Czech, i can estimate the problems that people like Andrey or Ruslan (whose mail started this entire thread) are faced with when expressing in English. I'm convinced that my Russian, if i'm ever going to use it again, would sound equally terrible. > It seems the major computer > languages are "in English"--if, else, while, for, do, continue, break-- > this doesn't get translated into, say, French or Russian, does it? Microsoft's Visual Basic (or some of its dialects) indeed did it. Ick. IBM's AIX at some version also exaggerated internationalization, in that their system daemons spoke error messages (like in sendmail) in the local language, and even the C compiler would only accept a comma as the decimal sign if the language environment was set to German (violating the C standard thereby, of course). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 15:51:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25297 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:51:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25291 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA11123 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:51:22 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id AAA21046; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:24:26 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971118002426.AU29263@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:24:26 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <199711171832.KAA05663@kithrup.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711171832.KAA05663@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Nov 17, 1997 10:32:22 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > I still think Gaelic is going to make a comeback as *the* language of > choice for the 21st century. Oh, i wouldn't mind at all. At least, it has a very good sound. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 17:10:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01200 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:10:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01189 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robmel@innotts.co.uk) Received: from muffin.highwire.local (serialA29.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.42]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA03825; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:10:07 GMT Received: from [172.16.99.31] (robsmac.highwire.local [172.16.99.31]) by muffin.highwire.local (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA00804; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:09:53 GMT X-Sender: robmel@muffin.highwire.local Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971118002231.VS01973@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: ; from Annelise Anderson on Nov 17, 1997 01:26:22 -0800 <24684.879743950@jkh.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:09:18 +0000 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Robin Melville Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id RAA01194 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 12:22 am +0100 18/11/97, J Wunsch wrote: >since you Americans have borrowed quite a number or German >words, like "kaput" (although misspelled, we spell it with a >double-t), "fahrvergnugen" (also misspelled since you don't have >umlauts, nor could you speak them anyway ;), or the worst of the words >German exported into any language, "blitzkrieg". Oh, I think you underestimate this Jörge. How about "Hamburger" or "Frankfurter"? Even JFK described himself as "ein Berliner" which I understand is a kind of do'nut :). Now if he'd been "Berlinerisch" the cold war may have ended even sooner Regards Robin. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 18:55:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09041 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:55:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mescaline.gnu.org (root@mescaline.gnu.org [158.121.106.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09021 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from devnull@gnu.org) Received: from melange.gnu.org by mescaline.gnu.org (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) with ESMTP id VAA03628; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:56:37 -0500 Received: (devnull@localhost) by melange.gnu.org (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id VAA23383; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:55:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:55:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711180255.VAA23383@melange.gnu.org> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: toor@dyson.iquest.net CC: cmott@srv.net, julian@whistle.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199711172224.RAA07892@dyson.iquest.net> (toor@dyson.iquest.net) Subject: Re: FreeBSD based box wins prize at COMDEX! x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: He is considered a most graceful speaker who can say nothing in the most words. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The GPL doesn't even guarantee the give-back. As a practical matter, the GPL has the effect that if someone makes useful changes to a program, the community will be able to freely share those changes. Of course, there have been efforts made to avoid the GPL restrictions. For example, I believe that Cygnus was rather upset that Wind River Systems made a proprietary X11 front end to gdb that wasn't linked against gdb, so it didn't have to be GPL'd. Cygnus has been writing some proprietary software in recent times, too. But the GPL has had the effect that lots of enhancements that people have made to gcc did become freely avaiable to everyone. The Objective C front-end for gcc is free only because of the GPL. NeXT decided to use gcc because it was technically superior to the propreitary compilers (they were willing to pay lots of money if that was necissary), but they actually tried shipping the compiler without linking it, having the customer do the final linking. Obviously, this scheme didn't work, and RMS used the GPL to force them to share the source. I think that using the free market, with the public knowledge that the company contributes-back is a vastly superior alternative. That is true, but most companies that release commerical products seem to not be responsible. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 19:23:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11018 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:23:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11006 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:23:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA11180; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:41:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:41:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711180341.UAA11180@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Nadav Eiron CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nadav Eiron writes: > Well, Microsoft thought otherwise (at least temporarily). With WFWG 3.11 > the Hebrew version was fully bilingual, i.e. you could choose at install > time whether you want the menus, system messages, help files, etc. in > Hebrew or English. When they first started selling Win95 Hebrew Edition it > was Hebrew only. An excellent example, but they didn't convert the operating system itself to Hebrew. They didn't, for instance, come up with a Hebrew version of the standard libraries. The FreeBSD equivalent would be to replace the write(2) system call with ecriver(2) for French-speaking programmers. Now imagine adding (and requiring) diacritical marks to the alphabet for your C/C++/Java/etc. compiler. I shudder at the thought. I know at least one COBOL compiler did this. I guess it was no worse than a COBOL program I once saw that came from a public utility in Quebec: all the verbs in the program were english and the nouns french. Made the program an utter nightmare to comprehend. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 19:30:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11580 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:30:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11539 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:29:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA00572; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:29:42 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711180329.WAA00572@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD based box wins prize at COMDEX! In-Reply-To: <199711180255.VAA23383@melange.gnu.org> from "Joel N. Weber II" at "Nov 17, 97 09:55:37 pm" To: devnull@gnu.org (Joel N. Weber II) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:29:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, cmott@srv.net, julian@whistle.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Joel N. Weber II said: > > Of course, there have been efforts made to avoid the GPL restrictions. > I don't have a problem with that - but I really do have a problem with those who do so violating the license. I am a stickler on trying to follow license terms. > > For example, I believe that Cygnus was rather upset that Wind River Systems > made a proprietary X11 front end to gdb that wasn't linked against gdb, > so it didn't have to be GPL'd. > I wonder why Cygnus was upset? If I wrote a very fancy GUI environment for XFree86/Linux, that everyone loved, and that environment used only POSIX interfaces, that work also wouldn't necessarily need to come under the GPL. To me, that is pretty obvious. Using proprietary (Linux-specific) internal interfaces, things might get more complicated. > > Cygnus has been writing some proprietary > software in recent times, too. > That is good too. (IMO) There is room for both free and proprietary software. I can imagine cases where free software isn't worth it for a commercial company to keep private, or perhaps there is PR value in release software to the free community. However, I can't agree that every thing that a company does has to be free. I don't know all of the financials associated with Cygnus, but assuming that Cygnus bootstrapped itself up by selling services associated with free software, that certainly doesn't mean that it must continue to do free software solely. It is fortunate that Cygnus continues to contribute to the free software base, though. I would not dislike Cygnus if they ever decided to quit doing free software, just like I would not dislike any other free software contributor, if they quit contributing. > > But the GPL has had the effect that lots of enhancements that people have > made to gcc did become freely avaiable to everyone. > I do think that GPL for GCC and development tools isn't nearly the problem that it is for runtime code. GCC isn't the best compiler possible, but is pretty darned good (I am very happy to see the EGCS effort, where the "GCC" effort is becoming more open, and the effort appears to be revitalized.) There is still room for commercial high-end compilers, and other pretty good free compilers, but GCC is a great default. (And an impressive effort.) (I am not as critical of it now, since I see some X86 progress :-)). > > The Objective C front-end for gcc is free only because of the GPL. > NeXT decided to use gcc because it was technically superior to the > propreitary compilers (they were willing to pay lots of money if that > was necissary), but they actually tried shipping the compiler without > linking it, having the customer do the final linking. Obviously, this > scheme didn't work, and RMS used the GPL to force them to share the > source. > That says that it might have been true that OBJC wouldn't have been free, if NeXT understood the license terms, and was initially planning to comply with those terms. I don't know the whole story, but the above example shows that it is possible that NeXT would have gone with a non-GPLed, commercial and propietary compiler, given GPL was properly figured in to their plans. The community is learning what GPL means and what other free license terms really mean. It is probably unlikely that mistake will be made again. (In a way, I think that it is great that OBJC was freed, but from another viewpoint, I sure hope that the programmers and project leaders properly informed mgmt of their decision, and the decision was made at the correct level in the company.) Forcing someone into a position of giving something up by putting them into a tricky legal position is not a good practice. It is more likely than not that the OBJC situation was just a mistake, and it is possible that NeXT would have decided to use GCC anyway. Geesh, I even read the licenses for Microsoft software, and the fonts I just purchased. It is easy and seductive to ignore licenses -- so I don't do that. > > I think > that using the free market, with the public knowledge that the company > contributes-back is a vastly superior alternative. > > That is true, but most companies that release commerical products seem to > not be responsible. > I think that is changing. My employer (NCI, the Oracle venture) has told me to include any kernel changes that I make for them into FreeBSD (if the rest of the user base agrees.) There are some userland things that will not be included, but a significant amount of OS related software will be. It appears that Whistle is taking a similar position. There is a possibility that certain innovations won't be included into the FreeBSD kernel, either due to the user community rejecting it, or perhaps I might suggest that NCI keep it proprietary. The former is more likely than the latter, though. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 20:27:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16245 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16234 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:27:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA11230; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:45:36 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:45:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711180445.VAA11230@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Marco Molteni CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marco Molteni writes: > Strange, isn't it? I, as a non-native english speaker, find english > spelling pretty simple! Also, I heard that in the USA you take something > like "spelling contests" in the schools. Sounds really strange to me. Yes, this is quite common in the US public schools. My second grade year (7 years old), I missed only one spelling word the entire year and still did not win; a girl named Laurie Van Skyhawk did not miss that one. I've remebered her name for 30 years now, it made such an impression on me. > Regarding the verbs, you should have a look at french, or italian, or > german ;-) I have - french and german at least. Ugh! English is kind of weird due to the dichotomy between the old english (germanic) roots and the modern english latinate words. With a few bizarre exceptions, like the "ough" Jordan mentioned, english spelling is straightforward. Most modern english words are spelled like they sound, which makes it possible to learn the few thousand exceptions by rote if it is important to you. Very few english words are pronounced so differently from how they are spelled that it is impossible to figure out how to do a creditable job of saying them. The exceptions to this rule in my experience come from poor attempts to spell european or "native american" names phonetically. For instance, I live in the shadows of the Oqquirrh Mountains (yes, that is really how the name is spelled). What the idiot that came up with that was trying to spell was "ochre." Similarities include the towns of Tooele, Utah (pronounced "TOO-ill-ah") and Puyallup, Washington ("POO-yawl-up"). -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 17 22:55:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26643 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:55:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26627 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:55:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.1/nospam) with UUCP id HAA26367 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:55:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.8/keltia-2.13/nospam) id HAA08130; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:49:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971118074946.63433@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:49:46 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <3642.879762062.kithrup.freebsd.chat@jkh.cdrom.com> <199711171832.KAA05663@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199711171832.KAA05663@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 10:32:22AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3818 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Sean Eric Fagan: > I still think Gaelic is going to make a comeback as *the* language of > choice for the 21st century. As a breton myself, I'd like to see that too :-) > Of course, I also think that emacs is *the* disk repair program of choice, > so I'm used to people looking at me strangely. > > Slan agat. Slaínte! -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #49: Sat Nov 15 20:03:33 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 18 02:26:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA11003 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:26:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA10997 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 02:26:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA02786; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:25:33 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:25:33 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Robin Melville cc: Joerg Wunsch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id CAA10998 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Robin Melville wrote: > At 12:22 am +0100 18/11/97, J Wunsch wrote: > >since you Americans have borrowed quite a number or German > >words, like "kaput" (although misspelled, we spell it with a > >double-t), "fahrvergnugen" (also misspelled since you don't have > >umlauts, nor could you speak them anyway ;), or the worst of the words > >German exported into any language, "blitzkrieg". > > Oh, I think you underestimate this Jörge. How about "Hamburger" or > "Frankfurter"? > > Even JFK described himself as "ein Berliner" which I understand is a kind > of do'nut :). Now if he'd been "Berlinerisch" the cold war may have ended > even sooner > Well, you should check out afu (alt.folklore.urban) on this. There was a thread on this a short time ago :-) > Regards > > Robin. > > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 18 04:20:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA17247 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 04:20:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA17235 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 04:20:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from bera.ifi.uio.no (2602@bera.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.84]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.7/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id NAA05470 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:20:00 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by bera.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:19:56 +0100 (MET) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <199711180341.UAA11180@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Organization: FMKY X-url: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 18 Nov 1997 13:19:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:41:28 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: > version of the standard libraries. The FreeBSD equivalent would be to > replace the write(2) system call with ecriver(2) for French-speaking ------- Ummm... no :) If you were thinking of the infinitive, it's «écrire»; if you were thinking of the second person plural imperative, it's «écrivez». Actually, the "natural" translation would be the second person singular imperative, i.e. «écris», unless you defer to your computer, in which case «écrivez» mentioned above is the right form. IMHO, though, latin languages are not very well suited to computing. -- * Finrod (INTJ) * Unix weenie * dag-erli@ifi.uio.no * cellular +47-92835919 * RFC1123: "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 18 14:07:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27972 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:07:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27960 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:07:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA03580; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:06:27 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711182206.RAA03580@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FYI, about fonts on Xwindows In-Reply-To: from Atipa at "Nov 9, 97 10:37:32 am" To: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:06:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Atipa said: > > > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > > > As John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > away, because it is just a config file. I cannot guarantee that you'll see > > > a difference, but I think that I do. The Adobe Type Basics (65 fonts) > > > costs $100, which is a bargain price for the fonts. However, that package > > > is licensed only for one machine. > > > > Well, what about using font servers? (I've got used to use them, > > mainly as `poor man's multithreading'.) > > > > That would be a big of a sin as NFS exporting them (But sir, they only > reside on one hard drive!!!). > Someone in this discussion mentioned the type1inst-0.6 program. It does everything that you need for installing the fonts with GS and X. It is just what the "doctor ordered", and makes my posting of fonts.scale irrelavent. The ports-meisters might be interested in this. I am now running without any 100dpi or 75dpi fonts, and am running Type1 scaled fonts and misc fonts exclusively now. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 18 15:47:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06211 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06189 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:47:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1025462; 18 Nov 97 22:41 GMT Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id WAA07510; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:29:11 GMT (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971118222909.27189@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:29:09 +0000 From: James Raynard To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <3642.879762062.kithrup.freebsd.chat@jkh.cdrom.com> <199711171832.KAA05663@kithrup.com> <19971118074946.63433@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19971118074946.63433@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 07:49:46AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 07:49:46AM +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Sean Eric Fagan: > > I still think Gaelic is going to make a comeback as *the* language of > > choice for the 21st century. > > As a breton myself, I'd like to see that too :-) As an Englishman living in Scotland, so would I! Sadly there are only 65,000 native speakers left here, most of them elderly, so the outlook isn't too good (unlike Ireland, where it's much healthier). > > Slan agat. > > Slante! Soraidh slan do'n Ghaidheil ghasda! Seumas Raynard, Dun-Eidann, Alba. http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 18 17:00:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11121 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:00:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11114 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:00:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA22202 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:00:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:59:46 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: <19971118222909.27189@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, James Raynard wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 07:49:46AM +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > According to Sean Eric Fagan: > > > I still think Gaelic is going to make a comeback as *the* language of > > > choice for the 21st century. > > > > As a breton myself, I'd like to see that too :-) > > As an Englishman living in Scotland, so would I! Sadly there are only > 65,000 native speakers left here, most of them elderly, so the > outlook isn't too good (unlike Ireland, where it's much healthier). It is remarkable that after more than two thousand years of domination by Romans, Scandinavian raiders, Franks, Saxons, Normans, English and French feudal aristocracies and now finally television and radio, that the Gaelic (Celtic?) languages have actually survived. One has to have a certain level of respect for that. Now, of course, we probably will discover that several prominent FreeBSD contributors are secretly Druid high priests. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 07:36:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23170 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:36:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wakko.visint.co.uk (wakko.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23151 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:36:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@visint.co.uk) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by wakko.visint.co.uk (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20484 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:36:13 GMT Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:36:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Stephen Roome To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There's a lot of hype about Year 2000 Compliance around here, Walnut Creek CDROM fall 1997-1998 catalog has a little red box on the FreeBSD page which says FreeBSD is "Year 2000 Compliant!" There's no obvious mention of this in the FreeBSD documentation, and I don't see anything similar on the website. For 'IT professionals' (IT Managers of non-IT related businesses) Year 2000 compliance is now very important when deciding if they want to do business or not. This is IMHO a MAJOR plus for FreeBSD, it would be very nice to see some information about Year 2000 compliance on the main website. Perhaps the same graphic as in the WCDROM catalog at the bottom of the webpage with apache, ugu, walnut creek logos. Also some mention of what on earth Year 2000 compliance is on both the webpages and in the online docs (man/info pages). I've sent this to -chat because there's so much uncertainty about what year 2000 compliance is and what will happen in 2000 (even wether it's a leap year or not). And it doesn't really belong anywhere else. Finally, what's being done (if any?) to insure that FreeBSD _IS_ and _REMAINS_ Year 2000 compliant... e.g. New packages/ports etc. Steve -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 09:39:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03701 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:39:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dn800e0.fingerhut.com (dn800e0-ext.fingerhut.com [204.221.45.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03684 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:39:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Bruce.Albrecht@seag.fingerhut.com) Received: from dn800e0.fingerhut.com (root@localhost) by dn800e0.fingerhut.com with ESMTP id FAA17660; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:41:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from seag.fingerhut.com (GF007E0.SEAG.fingerhut.com [151.210.140.7]) by dn800e0.fingerhut.com with SMTP id FAA17655; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:41:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from gf006e0.seag.fingerhut.com by seag.fingerhut.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA03015; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:39:34 -0600 Received: by gf006e0.seag.fingerhut.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA09593; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:39:31 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:39:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199711191739.LAA09593@gf006e0.seag.fingerhut.com> From: Bruce Albrecht To: Team FreeBSD RC5-64 Effort Subject: Team FreeBSD rank in Bovine RC5-64 effort cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <8188AD2EBC3CD111B7A30060082F32A401C659@FREYA> References: <8188AD2EBC3CD111B7A30060082F32A401C659@FREYA> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Team FreeBSD RC5-64 Effort writes: > FYI, > So, stats are updated now and we just broke the #46 ranking overall! > > From everyone else's statistics, it looks like we will painlessly be > able to get up to about #39, but beyond that will require a fairly > significant increase in # of clients. If present rates continue, Team FreeBSD could be in the top 30 within a week. Currently at #46 with 105137 blocks, having done 13356 blocks yesterday, here's how long, at current rates, it would take Team FreeBSD to catch up with the other teams: 1 never Team EvangeLista (Macs Rule! :-) 2 never Team Win32 (Windows) 3 never Japan Linux Users Group 4 never Team Warped (OS/2) 5 never LinuxNET RC5 6 never The Amiga RC5 Team effort 7 never Czech RC5 Team 8 473 rc5@ios.chalmers.se 9 127 Team Macintosh 10 never The #koffie team 11 never Team K-net Denmark 12 49 VG6 Posse (Team Chore Boy) 13 70 Malaysia Boleh 14 115 University of St Thomas Computer Science Club 15 30 Oracle RC5-64/2000 16 49 uni.de (German Universities) 17 56 The Quake RC5 Cracking Effort 18 103 Aachen University of Technology and Friends (Germany) 19 11 Fightin' Irish 20 31 Egham Hills 21 53 team byxnet 22 32 ZA - South Africa 23 15 TeamHuge@sno.pp.se 24 8 Bastard Operators from Hell 25 11 Novell 26 13 The Royal Veterinary & Agricultural University (Denmark) 27 52 Vienna University of Economics and Business Administration 28 11 Big Red (Cornell University) 29 25 Qualcomm 30 6 Pugetsound RC5 Consortium 31 19 Brown CS 32 8 College of Arts & Science (Miami University) 33 4 The Australian Dudes 34 4 Team #LinuxWareZ 35 5 RC5 Syndicate (Portuguese based) 36 4 BT Labs 37 never Tigress Furry Team 38 2 rc5@mit.edu 39 2 Vanderbilt Cowmodores 40 2 Texas A&M RC5 Cracking Team 41 2 Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets 42 1 Hotline 43 2 Tri-Cities RC5-64 Community Cracking Effort 44 2 UVA RC5 45 1 Team #Penguin From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 09:40:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03969 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:40:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03963 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:40:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id KAA23320 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:40:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:39:56 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mail spam, sigh... In-Reply-To: <199711191001.LAA06385@sos.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA03964 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Søren Schmidt wrote: > > If any of you gets a message back from my system claiming you > should be shot or something to that extent, well, I'm sorry. > The amount of JUNKmail recently has demanded that I enable > my hysteric mail filter again, and its pretty harsh (one > unsolicited mail, and that doamin is toast). > Sorry for any inconvinience, but the filter stays this time... > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team > Even more code to hack -- will it ever end [moved to -chat] If I ever get a fixed IP address for my home system, I am thinking of running gated and having it interface with the Vixie BGP anti-spam feed (http://maps.vix.com). If anything, this activity would be educational. I am also told it works pretty well. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 10:08:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06247 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:08:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06230 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:08:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA10766; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:08:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA05380; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:07:58 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:07:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199711191807.LAA05380@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Stephen Roome Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Finally, what's being done (if any?) to insure that FreeBSD _IS_ and > _REMAINS_ Year 2000 compliant... e.g. New packages/ports etc. The non-use of Cobol. :) Seriously, almost all unix programs store times/date as milliseconds since 1970, so they don't have a Y2K problem, but they have the Year 2038 problem. However, it's hoped that by the time this comes about the number used to store the time will be bumped to a much bigger #, making the problem go away. However, if that doesn't happen *OR* the programs in question aren't recompiled, the problem will be the same for them in 2038. However, by then I won't care since I'll be old and grey. :) :) :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 10:19:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07284 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:19:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wakko.visint.co.uk (wakko.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07258 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@visint.co.uk) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by wakko.visint.co.uk (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA21318; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:19:01 GMT Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:19:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Stephen Roome To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: <199711191807.LAA05380@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > Finally, what's being done (if any?) to insure that FreeBSD _IS_ and > > _REMAINS_ Year 2000 compliant... e.g. New packages/ports etc. > > The non-use of Cobol. :) Well, that's sort of important I guess, but it's bad enough that most peoples only problem with Cobol is the date thing! > Seriously, almost all unix programs store times/date as milliseconds > since 1970, so they don't have a Y2K problem, but they have the Year > 2038 problem. However, it's hoped that by the time this comes about the > number used to store the time will be bumped to a much bigger #, making > the problem go away. Yes, but what about packages and apps which get installed as the default system which don't do this ? How about things which might store in strange internal formats in their own files. This is my main concern, after noticing that date can have leap seconds and stuff I guess it look carefully thought out. > However, if that doesn't happen *OR* the programs in question aren't > recompiled, the problem will be the same for them in 2038. However, by > then I won't care since I'll be old and grey. :) :) :) I'm not worried about this one until our clients tell me that they aren't going to be doing business until I can prove that our systems are Year 2038 Compliant. Something I doubt they'll worry about for a while. Maybe premature by in 203x this sounds like the sort of thing that'll give UNIX the sort of name Cobol has. (although, yes, I guess it'll have been fixed by then!) Steve. -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 10:25:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08004 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:25:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07987 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:25:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA10907; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:25:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA05498; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:25:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:25:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199711191825.LAA05498@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Stephen Roome Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: References: <199711191807.LAA05380@mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Seriously, almost all unix programs store times/date as milliseconds > > since 1970, so they don't have a Y2K problem, but they have the Year > > 2038 problem. However, it's hoped that by the time this comes about the > > number used to store the time will be bumped to a much bigger #, making > > the problem go away. > > Yes, but what about packages and apps which get installed as the default > system which don't do this ? They aren't FreeBSD. They are ports and packages, and there simply isn't the resource available to certify each and every package. If the package affects you, then certify it yourself and tell the world. For all the packages that I'm interested in (mostly development tools), there is no issue. And, the OS and system utilities have no Y2K problems (cvs/rcs did, but I believe they've been updated), so it's not an issue for the OS. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 11:31:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15127 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:31:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15121 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:31:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08665; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:31:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:31:32 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199711191931.LAA08665@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mail spam, sigh... In-Reply-To: References: <199711191001.LAA06385@sos.freebsd.dk> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article you write: >If I ever get a fixed IP address for my home system, I am thinking of >running gated and having it interface with the Vixie BGP anti-spam feed >(http://maps.vix.com). If anything, this activity would be educational. >I am also told it works pretty well. Paul is apparantly trying to discourage that. At least, that's the impression I got when I asked him about it. For the most part, the sendmail rules I sent out a while back are good enough, don't require a fixed IP address, and don't require you to get an AS number (which is the case if you go th egated route). Quoth Paul, "wouldn't you rather just use DNS?" Once again, the sendmail rules are (for the m4 file): LOCAL_CONFIG FR-o /etc/sendmail.cR LOCAL_RULESETS Scheck_rcpt # anything terminating locally is ok R< $+ @ $=w > $@ OK R< $+ @ $=M > $@ OK R$+ @ $=w $@ OK R$+ @ $* $=M $@ OK # Anything originating locally is ok R$* $: $(dequote "" $&{client_name} $) R$=w $@ OK R$=M $@ OK R$@ $@ OK # Anything else is bogus R$* $#error $: "550 Relaying Denied" Scheck_mail R$* $: $(dequote "" $&{client_addr} $) R$-.$-.$-.$- $(host $4.$3.$2.$1.rbl.maps.vix.com. $:OK $) ROK $@ OK R$+ $#error $: 5.1.3 $@ "Mail from " $(dequote "" $&{client_addr} $) " refused, see http://maps.vix.com/cgi-bin/lookup?" $&{client_addr} From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 11:44:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16912 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:44:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16868; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:43:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199711191943.LAA16868@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Mail spam, sigh... To: cmott@srv.net (Charles Mott) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:43:53 -0800 (PST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Charles Mott" at Nov 19, 97 10:39:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Mott wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Søren Schmidt wrote: > > > > If any of you gets a message back from my system claiming you > > should be shot or something to that extent, well, I'm sorry. > > The amount of JUNKmail recently has demanded that I enable > > my hysteric mail filter again, and its pretty harsh (one > > unsolicited mail, and that doamin is toast). > > Sorry for any inconvinience, but the filter stays this time... > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Søren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team > > Even more code to hack -- will it ever end > > [moved to -chat] > > If I ever get a fixed IP address for my home system, I am thinking of > running gated and having it interface with the Vixie BGP anti-spam feed > (http://maps.vix.com). If anything, this activity would be educational. > I am also told it works pretty well. why wait? use DNS to query the anti-spam feed (http://maps.vix.com) add this to your sendmail.cf (remember tabs are the field delimiter in /etc/sendmail.cf dont use xterm cut-n-paste). jmb Scheck_mail # called with envelope sender (everything after ":") in # "Mail From: xxx", of SMTP conversation # may or may not have "<" ">" # first check: DNS resolvable? R$* $: $>3 $1 R $* < @ $+ . > $: $2 R $* < @ $+ > $: $2 # R $* < @ $+ > $#error $: "451 Domain does not resolve" # resolved. second check: one of the know spam sources? R$+.$+.$+ $2.$3 R$* $: $(spamsites $1 $: OK $) ROK $@ OK R$+.REJECT $#error $: 521 $1 # not a spam source we know about. check ip address with RBL R$* $: $(dequote "" $&{client_addr} $) R$-.$-.$-.$- $(host $4.$3.$2.$1.rbl.maps.vix.com $:OK $) ROK $@ OK R$+ $#error $: "550 Mail refused, see http://maps.vix.com/rbl" From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 12:07:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20117 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:07:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20109 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:07:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA23604 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:06:59 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:06:26 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mail spam, sigh... In-Reply-To: <199711191931.LAA08665@kithrup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > For the most part, the sendmail rules I sent out a while back are good > enough, don't require a fixed IP address, and don't require you to get an AS > number (which is the case if you go th egated route). Quoth Paul, "wouldn't > you rather just use DNS?" Thanks to you and J. Bresler for explaining this. I just checked the DNS method for a few known spam addresses and it works amazingly well. I would have to agree that Vixie would not want to have hundreds of distinct home autonomous systems talking BGP with his router. Even if Paul wouldn't let me connect, I still am intrigued with having my own AS number. It would analogous being in a Cessna 172 waiting for takeoff clearance with all these huge jets around you. -- Charles Mott > > Once again, the sendmail rules are (for the m4 file): > > LOCAL_CONFIG > FR-o /etc/sendmail.cR > > LOCAL_RULESETS > Scheck_rcpt > # anything terminating locally is ok > R< $+ @ $=w > $@ OK > R< $+ @ $=M > $@ OK > R$+ @ $=w $@ OK > R$+ @ $* $=M $@ OK > > # Anything originating locally is ok > R$* $: $(dequote "" $&{client_name} $) > R$=w $@ OK > R$=M $@ OK > R$@ $@ OK > > # Anything else is bogus > R$* $#error $: "550 Relaying Denied" > > Scheck_mail > R$* $: $(dequote "" $&{client_addr} $) > R$-.$-.$-.$- $(host $4.$3.$2.$1.rbl.maps.vix.com. $:OK $) > ROK $@ OK > R$+ $#error $: 5.1.3 $@ "Mail from " $(dequote "" $&{client_addr} $) " refused, see http://maps.vix.com/cgi-bin/lookup?" $&{client_addr} > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 12:36:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23804 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:36:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23795 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:36:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfieber@indiana.edu) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08739; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:36:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:36:29 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Nate Williams cc: Stephen Roome , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: <199711191807.LAA05380@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > Finally, what's being done (if any?) to insure that FreeBSD _IS_ and > > _REMAINS_ Year 2000 compliant... e.g. New packages/ports etc. > > The non-use of Cobol. :) I was a little alarmed to find the "2000 compliant" banner. On what basis is the claim made other than the non-use of Cobol? Some time back I grepped the source tree and found a number of places where two digit dates were having 1900 blindly added to them--the internal representation was okay, but stored representations may have problems. These may not be serious problems and they may not be widespread, but I find it a little disturbing how frequently Unixheads brush aside the problem as something that only affects other systems. That sort of arrogance is bound to backfire at some point. Has anyone actually set their system clock forward and done extensive testing? -john From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 13:02:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26639 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26627 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:02:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (dialin1.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.254.101]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA23721 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:02:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:01:28 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: <199711191807.LAA05380@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Seriously, almost all unix programs store times/date as milliseconds > since 1970, so they don't have a Y2K problem, but they have the Year > 2038 problem. However, it's hoped that by the time this comes about the > number used to store the time will be bumped to a much bigger #, making > the problem go away. > > However, if that doesn't happen *OR* the programs in question aren't > recompiled, the problem will be the same for them in 2038. However, by > then I won't care since I'll be old and grey. :) :) :) System time is represented in seconds after the birth of Unix, and this value will reach the maximum positive value for a 32 bit signed integer 68 years after 1970, which is the year 2038 as you mention (I append a brief forth calculation to confirm this). Although I am not a personal proponent of DEC Alpha porting, moving FreeBSD to a 64-bit architecture (Merced?), or any other word size for that matter, will tend to improve the code base quite a bit and problems like the 2038 bug can be fixed along the way. Who knows, maybe FreeBSD will become an enduring edifice like Stonehenge. Charles Mott hex 7fffffff decimal 0 d>f .s 2.147484E+09 ok 365 24 * 60 * 60 * 0 d>f .s 3.1536E+07 2.147484E+09 ok f/ .s 68.09626 ok From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 14:14:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05344 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:14:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05333 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:14:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA12601; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:14:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA07070; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:14:16 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:14:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199711192214.PAA07070@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Artificial Lifeform? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Moved to -chat ] > Are there any artificial life programs for freebsd? Jordan is claimed to be an artificial lifeform at times, since there's no way he could exist and answer email at all hours. Terry is as well, since it's not humanly possible to type that fast. :) > Or easily portable. Dang, well, that throws both of them out of the loop. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 14:17:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05574 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:17:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua ([195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05567 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:16:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04956; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:42:22 GMT Message-ID: <34735D3D.3F55C3DF@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:42:21 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Artificial Lifeform? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > Are there any artificial life programs for freebsd? > Or easily portable. "Life" from vim didtribution (/usr/ports/editors/vim) But I'm don't know, is it includes in ports by default. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 14:21:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06025 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:21:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05997 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:21:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id ab19378; 19 Nov 97 17:19 EST Received: from stretch.cs.virginia.edu (atf3r@stretch-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.14]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23290; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:19:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from atf3r@localhost) by stretch.cs.virginia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23431; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:19:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:19:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: adrian@virginia.edu To: John Fieber cc: Nate Williams , Stephen Roome , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, John Fieber wrote: > On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > Finally, what's being done (if any?) to insure that FreeBSD _IS_ and > > > _REMAINS_ Year 2000 compliant... e.g. New packages/ports etc. > > > > The non-use of Cobol. :) > > Has anyone actually set their system clock forward and done > extensive testing? Well, it is one thing to say that FreeBSD os Y2K safe given that it can store dates well beyong the year 2000, but is is quite another thing to say that all FreeBSD systems are invulnerable to Y2K problems. I have yet to see any mention of dealing with BIOS limitations. What does a prefectly happy FreeBSD box think when it is rebooted after the BIOS has rolled over? It has to trust the clock of course, which is wrong! Has anyone considered adding a kernel option to offset the time read from the CMOS clock by some number of years, so that a Y2K compliant FreeBSD box can continue to run in the face of this obvious problem? Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualzation Lab -->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 16:01:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14974 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:01:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14958 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:01:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA25252; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:52:41 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199711191152.GAA25252@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Artificial Lifeform? In-Reply-To: <199711192214.PAA07070@mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Nov 19, 97 03:14:16 pm" To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:52:41 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Or easily portable. > > Dang, well, that throws both of them out of the loop. :) Try "cat jkh | cat | cat | cat | ..." Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 16:05:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15322 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15278 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:05:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2023701; 19 Nov 97 23:06 GMT Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id UAA01706; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:03:33 GMT (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971119200333.45342@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:03:33 +0000 From: James Raynard To: Stephen Roome Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Stephen Roome on Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 03:36:13PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 03:36:13PM +0000, Stephen Roome wrote: [Maybe this should have gone to -hackers?] > Finally, what's being done (if any?) to insure that FreeBSD _IS_ and > _REMAINS_ Year 2000 compliant... e.g. New packages/ports etc. Good question. I had a look through the Solaris FAQ, and checked some of the points they raised to see if the base FreeBSD system was affected. (Didn't think of checking ports, but the base system should probably take priority). The only one I wasn't sure about was atq, but that's so badly written that I was tempted to re-write it! (Maybe the author has a newer version that addresses these problems?) I suppose we ought to be checking things like arguments to strftime() and assumptions about the tm_year field (which will change from a 2-digit to a 3-digit field in 2000!). I've had a casual browse, but it really needs to be done systematically. -- In theory, theory is better than practice. In practice, it isn't. James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 16:34:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17626 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:34:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17619 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:34:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id ab2007506; 20 Nov 97 0:17 GMT Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA09219; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:16:26 GMT (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971120001625.00506@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:16:25 +0000 From: James Raynard To: John Fieber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance References: <199711191807.LAA05380@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from John Fieber on Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 03:36:29PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 03:36:29PM -0500, John Fieber wrote: > > Some time back I grepped the source tree and found a number of > places where two digit dates were having 1900 blindly added to In what context? Something like year = tm.tm_year + 1900; is actually the correct way to do it. > problems and they may not be widespread, but I find it a little > disturbing how frequently Unixheads brush aside the problem as > something that only affects other systems. That sort of > arrogance is bound to backfire at some point. Can't argue with that. > Has anyone actually set their system clock forward and done > extensive testing? I tried it a year or so ago - just did a quick check to see if anything blatently obvious was broken before putting the clock back and rebooting. Although the problem isn't just a case of handling 1st January 2000 correctly - there may be programs which (wrongly!) assume 2000 is not a leap year. I vaguely remember hearing about some system which got past 1st Jan and 29th Feb 2000, only to miss out a day in the middle of March (OK, I think that one was a hardware bug). Not to mention things like using 1999 and 9/9/99 as synonyms for 'never'. Apparently a well-known UK organisation gave people "life" memberships by using an expiry date of 1999 (OK, this was probably a COBOL problem, but it shows you have to look for things which aren't immediately obvious). -- In theory, theory is better than practice. In practice, it isn't. James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 17:09:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20220 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20182 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:09:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@diamond.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29459; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:09:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:09:19 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net To: James Raynard cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: <19971119200333.45342@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, James Raynard wrote: > and assumptions about the tm_year field (which will change from a > 2-digit to a 3-digit field in 2000!). I've had a casual browse, but struct tm { [snip] int tm_year; /* years since 1900 */ 2147483647 + 1900 = 2,147,485,547 I suspect we have a few other issues to work on before the tm structure becomes a pressing matter. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 17:43:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23761 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:43:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (root@ppp-83.toiyabe.com [207.92.38.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23756 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:43:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@jkh.cdrom.com) Received: from jkh.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by jkh.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15644; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:42:36 -0800 (PST) To: John Fieber cc: Nate Williams , Stephen Roome , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:36:29 EST." Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:42:36 -0800 Message-ID: <15641.879990156@jkh.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Has anyone actually set their system clock forward and done > extensive testing? Yes, several systems at Walnut Creek CDROM were set 20-30 years ahead and used for several months in that mode before the claim was made. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 18:42:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28257 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:42:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wavefront.wavefront.com (root@ns.wavefront.com [204.73.244.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28251 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:42:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ocean@wavefront.com) Received: from wavefront.com by wavefront.wavefront.com (8.6.10/SMI-4.1.R931202) id UAA07098; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:41:31 -0600 Message-ID: <3473A3AD.A583A707@wavefront.com> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:42:53 -0600 From: Michael Porter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Holiday spirit! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, this came up when I logged in (from /usr/games/fortune) and I thought it was hilarious: better !pout !cry better watchout lpr why santa claus town cat /etc/passwd >list ncheck list ncheck list cat list | grep naughty >nogiftlist cat list | grep nice >giftlist santa claus town who | grep sleeping who | grep awake who | egrep 'bad|good' for (goodness sake) { be good } Ahhhh....I had to share it. Most of them are stupid, but this one took some though. Ho Ho Ho! (no, ma'am, no! I wasn't calling you *SLAP* OWWW! ) Michael Porter ocean@wavefront.com port0095@tc.umn.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 19 19:36:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02497 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:36:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02489 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:36:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA13839; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:55:16 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:55:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711200355.UAA13839@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Eivind Eklund CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD mentor program (was: Stealable idea?) In-Reply-To: <199711171624.RAA07453@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199711171624.RAA07453@bitbox.follo.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund writes: > > Would it be an idea to steal the debian idea mentioned below? > > Setting up something so simple as a mailing-list where somebody could > request a mentor (or perhaps just using hackers for this purpose) > and a web-page that describe the concept might effectively off-load > the mailing lists and increase our development speed a _lot_. Being a > developer contact isn't _that_ much work, and would combined with > Mark's (?) project database make it much easier to be an external > contributor, and hopefully increase development speed quite a bit. Perhaps we can even go one better. We have many regular contributors to FreeBSD who are not necessarily part of "hackers", but have many talents and abilities. I, for one, do not contribute to ongoing kernel work, but have stuck my fingers in a pie here or there. (For instance, I humbly accept credit for pushing Richard Wackerbarth into the role of supporting the 2.1-STABLE branch as an official FreeBSD project, instead of grousing that it wasn't supported. No, no, don't applaud, just throw money. Or improvements to FreeBSD. ;^) I certainly feel I'm a qualified UNIX programmer and understand FreeBSD pretty well, as well as being well versed in computer security and TCP/IP. I am willing to help others in areas I am comfortable with, even though I don't subscribe to -hackers or submit kernel patches. It'd be a shame to miss my talents and abilities by restricting access to the mentors program to the -hackers. At the same time, the members of -hackers are the people that we the FreeBSD community want to concentrate on what they're already giving us: regular improvment of FreeBSD! So, my suggestion along this line would be to run any such FreeBSD mentor program in a FreeBSD-like fashion: get a volunteer or two to run the program, create a mailing list and a web page, enlist volunteers to be mentors, list their particular areas of expertise on the web page, and have at it. While you're at it, sign me up for the following: C/C++ programming: small, medium, or large scale. (Defined as a few thousand, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands of lines of code. Never done a "millions" project yet.) Source code control systems and project setup: I'm a "true believer" here. Experienced with RCS, CVS, and Perforce. TCP/IP protocols: network protocols themselves and application protocols. Specifically, I've done a fair amount of work with PPP lately, and can help with packet traces. At the application level, I am quite familiar with HTTP, SMTP, and POP, and to a lesser extent DNS and DHCP. Can fight my way through just about anything. My particular area of interest lately is turning protocol engines into C++ classes, which are *REALLY* handy if you do it right and less than worthless if you do it wrong. While I sell these talents for commercial gain, I am willing to share my knowlege freely with *ANYONE* developing for FreeBSD, as long as they are willing to share their work in a license similar to BSD, and are willing to acknowlege my contributions. For those contemplating commercial product(s), contact me via email or phone. See my web page for contact information. We've already established what I am, now we're just haggling over price. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 00:51:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA21865 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:51:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21852 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:51:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA06389 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:51:10 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA01452; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:25:48 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971120092546.SP19499@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:25:46 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian T. Filipi-Martin on Nov 19, 1997 17:19:07 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > I have yet to see any mention of dealing with BIOS limitations. > What does a prefectly happy FreeBSD box think when it is rebooted after > the BIOS has rolled over? It has to trust the clock of course, which is > wrong! At least, you could look into the code first. It does already do an ``educated guess'' about whether the CMOS is before or after 2000. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 00:51:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA21894 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:51:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21885 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA06393 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:51:20 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA01465; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:27:41 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971120092740.VD37373@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:27:40 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance References: <15641.879990156@jkh.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <15641.879990156@jkh.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Nov 19, 1997 17:42:36 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Yes, several systems at Walnut Creek CDROM were set 20-30 years ahead > and used for several months in that mode before the claim was made. :-) Albeit, date(1) should be taught about accepting a century. (I read in the man page that it does some guesswork, but i think people might get used to explicitly spell the century around the Y2K turnover.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 04:10:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA01206 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 04:10:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wakko.visint.co.uk (wakko.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA01200 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 04:10:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@visint.co.uk) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by wakko.visint.co.uk (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA24259; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:09:48 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:09:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Stephen Roome To: Joerg Wunsch cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: <19971120092740.VD37373@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Yes, several systems at Walnut Creek CDROM were set 20-30 years ahead > > and used for several months in that mode before the claim was made. > > :-) > > Albeit, date(1) should be taught about accepting a century. (I read > in the man page that it does some guesswork, but i think people might > get used to explicitly spell the century around the Y2K turnover.) I think date is pretty likely to be a safe bet, although I haven't checked in a big way, (I set my computer to 2001 for a couple of days without problems) I'd be more concerned about applications that just print the date out wrong. It's more a worry of if everything works consistently. i.e. date outputs in the _same format_ (and programs still work). It all comes dow eto the level of trust in the vendor I guess, and we all have to just beleive Jordan's statement that it's tested (I do). Personally though I'll be testing the applications I use a bit more rigourously now that it seems so many people aren't entirely sure about it. I've no desire to be branded a Unix bighead who then gets it all wrong! Steve -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 05:51:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA05726 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:51:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from css.tuu.utas.edu.au (css.tuu.utas.edu.au [131.217.115.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA05714 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:50:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@ugh.net.au) From: andrew@ugh.net.au Received: from localhost (acs@localhost) by css.tuu.utas.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA15457; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:50:43 +1100 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: depravitas.tuu.utas.edu.au: acs owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:50:42 +1100 (EST) To: Steve Price cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Twice as many OS/2 as FreeBSD ??? In-Reply-To: <346FBE96.167EB0E7@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: X-Meaning-of-Life: none X-WonK: *wibble* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk NOTE: Havent read email in a few days...came in...deleted the first 300 or so emails of -chat and am only guessing what you're talking about :-) On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Steve Price wrote: > BTW, does anybody know how I can get a box that does not have > a direct connection to the internet working on a set of keys? Move its buff-in and buff-out files by disk. Stick them on a connected machine and run an rc5 client. Tell it to send out the blocks, grab new ones...the moment it has got them, stop the client and grab buff-in. I do this wiht my mac, getting 500 blocks at a time. Andrew From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 06:54:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA09307 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA09302 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199711201453.JAA00792@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:52:39 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: James Raynard cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: <19971120001625.00506@jraynard.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, James Raynard wrote: > Although the problem isn't just a case of handling 1st January 2000 > correctly - there may be programs which (wrongly!) assume 2000 is not > a leap year. I vaguely remember hearing about some system which got > past 1st Jan and 29th Feb 2000, only to miss out a day in the middle > of March (OK, I think that one was a hardware bug). Why is it wrong to assume 2000 isn't a leap year? Last time I checked, years ending in three 0's were not leap years by definition. Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 07:36:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11983 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:36:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11973 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199711201536.KAA00935@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:35:14 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: James Raynard cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: <199711201453.JAA00792@gatekeeper.itribe.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, James Raynard wrote: > > > Although the problem isn't just a case of handling 1st January 2000 > > correctly - there may be programs which (wrongly!) assume 2000 is not > > a leap year. I vaguely remember hearing about some system which got > > past 1st Jan and 29th Feb 2000, only to miss out a day in the middle > > of March (OK, I think that one was a hardware bug). > > Why is it wrong to assume 2000 isn't a leap year? Last time I checked, > years ending in three 0's were not leap years by definition. > Two 0's...2000 still qualifies. Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 07:40:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12373 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wakko.visint.co.uk (wakko.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12356 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@visint.co.uk) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by wakko.visint.co.uk (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA25203; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:40:09 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:40:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Stephen Roome To: Jamie Bowden cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: <199711201453.JAA00792@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: > Why is it wrong to assume 2000 isn't a leap year? Last time I checked, > years ending in three 0's were not leap years by definition. A year is a leap year if it's divisible by 4 and not 100, OR if it's divisible by 400. Check www.gmt2000.com for more details, they point out that 2000 is a leap year even though a lot of people have been confused. Steve. Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 10:26:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24005 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:26:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (s204m98.whistle.com [207.76.204.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23994 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:26:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00797; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:21:37 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711200951.UAA00797@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Nate Williams cc: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Artificial Lifeform? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:14:16 PDT." <199711192214.PAA07070@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:21:37 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [ Moved to -chat ] > > > Are there any artificial life programs for freebsd? > > Jordan is claimed to be an artificial lifeform at times, since there's > no way he could exist and answer email at all hours. Terry is as well, > since it's not humanly possible to type that fast. :) However artificial life forms don't eat like that. 8) (Hi Terry; good to finally meet you. Now I understand why you were an Amiga hacker. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 10:49:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26196 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:49:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26188 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:49:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@diamond.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03343; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:49:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:49:39 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net To: Jamie Bowden cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: <199711201453.JAA00792@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, James Raynard wrote: > > > Although the problem isn't just a case of handling 1st January 2000 > > correctly - there may be programs which (wrongly!) assume 2000 is not > > a leap year. I vaguely remember hearing about some system which got > > past 1st Jan and 29th Feb 2000, only to miss out a day in the middle > > of March (OK, I think that one was a hardware bug). > > Why is it wrong to assume 2000 isn't a leap year? Last time I checked, > years ending in three 0's were not leap years by definition. Centurys are leap years iff they are divisible by 400. 2000 % 400 = 0 therefore Feb 29, 2000 is valid. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 16:38:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24729 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:38:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24722 for chat; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:38:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199711210038.QAA24722@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: IETF Washington DC 12/8-12/12 To: chat Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:38:02 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone going to the IETF in Wasshington DC that begins Dec 8th? jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 18:18:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02177 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:18:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02169 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA00374; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:19:00 -0800 (PST) To: Wes Peters cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentor program (was: Stealable idea?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:55:16 MST." <199711200355.UAA13839@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:18:59 -0800 Message-ID: <370.880078739@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > While you're at it, sign me up for the following: > > C/C++ programming: small, medium, or large scale. (Defined as a few > thousand, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands of lines of > code. Never done a "millions" project yet.) Hmmm. Well, just to inject a note of cold reality into this, we have a lot of people who bill themselves that way but they don't appear to be much on taking on any actual projects, it seems, or we'd have had our zip library API or our Turbovision based object set for TCL or our device registration mechanism or our new package system (based on much of the previous) or any of the host of other things which I and others have called out for over the last 3 years (and which need to be essentially written from scratch, having found no appropriate "canned solutions" out there). So I guess what I'm saying is that it's all well and good to list your capabilities, but of far more importance is that key question which Sean Connery asked of Kevin Costner in "The Untouchables": "What are you prepared to *do*?" :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 18:20:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02305 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:20:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02300 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:20:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA00398; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:20:21 -0800 (PST) To: Jonathan Mini cc: Jean-Marc Zucconi , asami@cs.berkeley.edu, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Artificial Lifeform? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:13:21 PST." <19971119201321.31590@micron.mini.net> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:20:21 -0800 Message-ID: <395.880078821@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Redirected aggressively to -chat with a short pause for glaring at Jonathan for the mispost] > Yeah, but you know what's more fun? > > $ gdb /usr/local/bin/jhk > GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it > under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. > There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. > GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), > Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc...(no debugging symbols found).. . > (gdb) print jhk_create_rant("Terry Lambert") This function has been disabled. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 19:17:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05965 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:17:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05960 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:17:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA29283 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:17:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:17:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ICQ 0.91 improvement Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In case anyone is curious, I just found out that some of the ICQ display bugs are actually Lesstif bugs, and upgrading to LessTif 0.82 and softlinking that to libXm.so.1.2 made ICQ much more usable. There's one new bug that seem much more noticable, but resizing the original window clears up the problem. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 20:06:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09083 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:06:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from d198-232.uoregon.edu (d198-232.uoregon.edu [128.223.198.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09069 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:06:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu) Received: (from mini@localhost) by d198-232.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03059; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:05:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19971120200540.33428@micron.mini.net> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:05:40 -0800 From: Jonathan Mini To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Jonathan Mini , Jean-Marc Zucconi , asami@cs.berkeley.edu, jamil@trojanhorse.ml.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Artificial Lifeform? Reply-To: Jonathan Mini References: <19971119201321.31590@micron.mini.net> <395.880078821@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <395.880078821@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Nov 20, 1997 at 06:20:21PM -0800 X-files: The Truth is Out There Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > [Redirected aggressively to -chat with a short pause for glaring at > Jonathan for the mispost] > > > Yeah, but you know what's more fun? > > > > $ gdb /usr/local/bin/jhk > > GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it > > under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. > > There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. > > GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), > > Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc...(no debugging symbols found).. > . > > (gdb) print jhk_create_rant("Terry Lambert") > > This function has been disabled. Unfortunatly, we use CVS : # cvs co -D 'last week' jkh > > Jordan -- Jonathan Mini Ingenious Productions Software Development P.O. Box 5693, Eugene, Or. 97405 "A child of five could understand this! Quick -- Fetch me a child of five." From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 20:29:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10808 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10802 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA14996; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:49:45 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:49:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711210449.VAA14996@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Artificial Lifeform? In-Reply-To: <34735D3D.3F55C3DF@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> References: <34735D3D.3F55C3DF@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > Are there any artificial life programs for freebsd? > Or easily portable. Xlock, the screen locker. One of the "screen saver" displays is Conway's "game of life" using Sun logos. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 20:54:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12048 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:54:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from istari.home.net (cc158233-a.catv1.md.home.com [24.3.25.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12043 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:54:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sjr@home.net) Received: (from sjr@localhost) by istari.home.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) id XAA20303; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:54:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:54:09 -0500 (EST) From: "Stephen J. Roznowski" Message-Id: <199711210454.XAA20303@istari.home.net> To: steve@visint.co.uk, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Stephen Roome ' dated: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:36:13 +0000 (GMT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: Stephen Roome > > There's a lot of hype about Year 2000 Compliance around here, > Walnut Creek CDROM fall 1997-1998 catalog has a little red box > on the FreeBSD page which says FreeBSD is "Year 2000 Compliant!" I question this claim.... I have an outstanding bug report (gnu/4930) that shows a "year 2000" problem with the man macros [original report from Chris G. Demetriou and NetBSD]. -SR From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 21:19:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13734 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:19:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13723 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:19:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA15178; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:37:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:37:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711210537.WAA15178@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentor program (was: Stealable idea?) In-Reply-To: <370.880078739@time.cdrom.com> References: <199711200355.UAA13839@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <370.880078739@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I had recently blathered: % While you're at it, sign me up for the following: % % C/C++ programming: small, medium, or large scale. (Defined as a few % thousand, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands of lines of % code. Never done a "millions" project yet.) To which Jordan K. Hubbard replied: > Hmmm. Well, just to inject a note of cold reality into this, we have > a lot of people who bill themselves that way but they don't appear to > be much on taking on any actual projects, it seems, or we'd have had > our zip library API or our Turbovision based object set for TCL or our > device registration mechanism or our new package system (based on much > of the previous) or any of the host of other things which I and others > have called out for over the last 3 years (and which need to be > essentially written from scratch, having found no appropriate "canned > solutions" out there). > > So I guess what I'm saying is that it's all well and good to list your > capabilities, but of far more importance is that key question which > Sean Connery asked of Kevin Costner in "The Untouchables": > > "What are you prepared to *do*?" Advise people who are working on FreeBSD projects. That is what Eivind was asking about, a FreeBSD Mentoring list of some sort. I don't have a lot of bandwidth left for big coding projects in my copious spare time, which amounts to 2 hours on Sunday afternoon, if I'm lucky, each week. I do, however, have an hour or so each night after the baby goes to sleep before I completely bomb out, and can occasionally write lucid replies to queries during those times. If someone wants to tap into the expertise I have and ask a few questions, I'm more than glad to help. This is what *I* envisioned by a "FreeBSD Mentor" project/list. As an editor hereabouts used to say, "We welcome contrasting viewpoints from responsible individuals." -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 21:27:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14248 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14236 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:27:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net (max2-169.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.169]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA23194 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:27:18 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34751C01.ABD322C@hiwaay.net> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:28:33 -0600 From: Steve Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: RC5/64 source Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does anybody know where to get the source for the RC5/64 client program? Thanks, Steve From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 20 21:58:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16041 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:58:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16032 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:58:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA02122; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:59:02 -0800 (PST) To: Wes Peters cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentor program (was: Stealable idea?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:37:56 MST." <199711210537.WAA15178@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:59:02 -0800 Message-ID: <2118.880091942@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Advise people who are working on FreeBSD projects. That is what Eivind > was asking about, a FreeBSD Mentoring list of some sort. Ah, so you're just talking about being willing to Mentor, not being one of the mentorees. Fair enough, and more than reasonable for that particular job description. I thought you were talking about a Mentoree's profile. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 00:22:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22766 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:22:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA22744 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA21824 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:21:58 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA05272; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:04:08 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971121090407.ZB50747@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:04:07 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance References: <199711210454.XAA20303@istari.home.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711210454.XAA20303@istari.home.net>; from Stephen J. Roznowski on Nov 20, 1997 23:54:09 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Stephen J. Roznowski wrote: > I question this claim.... I have an outstanding bug report (gnu/4930) > that shows a "year 2000" problem with the man macros [original report > from Chris G. Demetriou and NetBSD]. Seems that the folks at Walnut Creek didn't write any new man page on their time-warped machines. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 01:50:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27698 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:50:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdcvs@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27685 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:50:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bsdcvs@shadows.aeon.net) Received: (from bsdcvs@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id LAA11524 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:54:19 +0200 (EET) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199711210954.LAA11524@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/dict web2 (fwd) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:54:19 +0200 (EET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Hmm, I've always spelt that ``writable''. I don't believe >> ``writeable'' is correct. > >I looked at altavista > >writable writeable >2716 1132 Web >2260 913 Usenet > >writable wins with 2:1 ;-) this is just another example of old english and new english... just like 'color' vs. 'colour' and so on... the americans are lazy to type. (i'm _with_ them on that issue) mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 01:51:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27744 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:51:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (root@piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se [129.16.234.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27737 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) Received: from hallgren.se (ip181033.student.gu.se [130.241.181.33]) by piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA15035 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:51:24 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34755943.41C67EA6@mdstud.chalmers.se> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:49:55 +0100 From: Tommy Hallgren Organization: FreeBSD X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Cheapbytes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! Cheapbytes sells FreeBSD for $4.99, quite a nice price. They have tweaked the distribution a bit to make it fit on one CD. However, reading their page about FreeBSD isn't exacly exciting to say the least. This is what they write: How difficult is FreeBSD to install? It can be a bit of a rough road and can in some instances require some patience. We installed it on a few different machines during our testing and had to use a variety of techniques to install the software. One machine needed to have cache turned off. For another we had to copy the files to a DOS partition and install from there. All installed with persistence. Their experience of installing FreeBSD doesn't sound very succesful. I would say they almost hurt the community. If you had to choose between, say one of the better Linux distributions, and FreeBSD, would you really choose FreeBSD then? My opinion is that FreeBSD has the slickest install of'em all, and that they don't know what they are doing or have faulty hardware. regards, Tommy(md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 02:21:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA29300 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 02:21:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29291 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 02:21:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA04011; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 02:21:24 -0800 (PST) To: Tommy Hallgren cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheapbytes In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:49:55 +0100." <34755943.41C67EA6@mdstud.chalmers.se> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 02:21:23 -0800 Message-ID: <4007.880107683@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi! > > Cheapbytes sells FreeBSD for $4.99, quite a nice price. They have > tweaked the distribution a bit to make it fit on one CD. > > However, reading their page about FreeBSD isn't exacly exciting to say > the least. This is what they write: I was more concerned that their description of Walnut Creek CDROM's 4 CD product is also out of date and I've sent a correction which I hope they incorporate soon. Yes, they did appear to have some problems installing and I'd hope that they'd at least try this again just to see whether their experiences with 2.2.5 are similar. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 02:57:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00646 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 02:57:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00641 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 02:57:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04092; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:57:36 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA02911; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:57:34 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971121115733.52892@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:57:33 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wes Peters , Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentor program (was: Stealable idea?) References: <199711200355.UAA13839@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <370.880078739@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <370.880078739@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Nov 20, 1997 at 06:18:59PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Nov 20, 1997 at 06:18:59PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > While you're at it, sign me up for the following: > > > > C/C++ programming: small, medium, or large scale. (Defined as a few > > thousand, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands of lines of > > code. Never done a "millions" project yet.) > > Hmmm. Well, just to inject a note of cold reality into this, [... comments about lack of FreeBSD projects actually implemented from scratch ...] > > So I guess what I'm saying is that it's all well and good to list your > capabilities, but of far more importance is that key question which > Sean Connery asked of Kevin Costner in "The Untouchables": > > "What are you prepared to *do*?" In the context this was: Answer questions and build a relationship to other people that need help for doing FreeBSD projects. That's a question of answering mail, which is something many FreeBSD people seem quite good at :-) However, with the level of enthusiasm for this idea among the committers (read: absolutely none), I've dropped doing anything more about setting up a mentor page or similar. It would be easy to set up, but if nobody except me would take on the work of functioning as a dedicated external contact for an external party, it seems fairly pointless. Having external people like Wes willing to help projects is of course nice (thanks Wes!), but it doesn't solve the primary problem - external contributors lack timely response and somebody taking responsibility for their projects, due to the responsibility being divided between a lot of people. The same problem exists for security-officer@freebsd.org - I've several times seen mail sent there just disappear into a void. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 07:06:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13513 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:06:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13507 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:06:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28013; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:06:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id JAA23267; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:05:54 -0600 Message-ID: <19971121090553.44482@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:05:53 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance References: <199711210454.XAA20303@istari.home.net> <19971121090407.ZB50747@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <19971121090407.ZB50747@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Nov 11, 1997 at 09:04:07AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 11, 1997 at 09:04:07AM +0100, J Wunsch wrote: > As Stephen J. Roznowski wrote: > > > I question this claim.... I have an outstanding bug report (gnu/4930) > > that shows a "year 2000" problem with the man macros [original report > > from Chris G. Demetriou and NetBSD]. > > Seems that the folks at Walnut Creek didn't write any new man page on > their time-warped machines. ;-) ... let's do the time warp again! ... -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 07:19:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14140 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:19:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA14132 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 07:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28041; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:19:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id JAA24638; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:19:10 -0600 Message-ID: <19971121091909.57156@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:19:09 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Steve Price Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RC5/64 source References: <34751C01.ABD322C@hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <34751C01.ABD322C@hiwaay.net>; from Steve Price on Nov 11, 1997 at 11:28:33PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Nov 11, 1997 at 11:28:33PM -0600, Steve Price wrote: > Does anybody know where to get the source for the > RC5/64 client program? It doesn't appear to be publically available. From the little I've gleaned from the RC5 lists, it appears that they are concerned that someone will falsely report a keyblock as completed, without actually doing the work. I believe this is supposed to be addressed in the upcoming `V3' client. Team FreeBSD is now at #28, btw. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 08:45:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20128 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:45:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (sprice@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20112 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:45:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA02390; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:44:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:44:59 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: Jonathan Lemon cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RC5/64 source In-Reply-To: <19971121091909.57156@right.PCS> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Jonathan Lemon wrote: # It doesn't appear to be publically available. From the little I've # gleaned from the RC5 lists, it appears that they are concerned that # someone will falsely report a keyblock as completed, without actually # doing the work. # Darn. I requested that my father-in-law who works at a fairly large company here in town (2nd or 3rd largest I believe) to contribute to the cause and he said that he had reservations about it because in his words, "How do I know it is not stealing all of my data while it generates keys?". I thought if I could get the source... # I believe this is supposed to be addressed in the upcoming `V3' client. # # Team FreeBSD is now at #28, btw. Team FreeBSD broke into the top 30 on the same day that I turned 30. :) Steve # -- # Jonathan # From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 11:43:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05453 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:43:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05448 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:43:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2022495; 21 Nov 97 19:24 GMT Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA02179; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:24:06 GMT (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971121192405.00046@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:24:05 +0000 From: James Raynard To: jack Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tell the world about Year 2000 Compliance References: <19971119200333.45342@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from jack on Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 08:09:19PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 08:09:19PM -0500, jack wrote: > On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, James Raynard wrote: > > > and assumptions about the tm_year field (which will change from a > > 2-digit to a 3-digit field in 2000!). I've had a casual browse, but > > struct tm { > [snip] > int tm_year; /* years since 1900 */ > > 2147483647 + 1900 = 2,147,485,547 > > I suspect we have a few other issues to work on before the tm structure > becomes a pressing matter. :) I meant something like /* Get date (in UK format) */ char datebuf[9]; /* DD/MM/YY\0 */ ... sprintf(datebuf, "%d/%d/%d", tm.tm_day, tm.tm_month, tm.tm_year); In October 2000, there will be nine characters plus the terminating NUL to squeeze into datebuf, which may result in Halloween arriving early. Obviously that's not a particularly good example, but it's easy to fall for the trap of thinking that tm_year is the number of years in the current century and assuming 2 digits will always be enough to hold it. -- In theory, theory is better than practice. In practice, it isn't. James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 15:22:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23804 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23781 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:22:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2027592; 21 Nov 97 23:07 GMT Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id VAA05676; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:14:07 GMT (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971121211407.44634@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:14:07 +0000 From: James Raynard To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentor program (was: Stealable idea?) References: <199711200355.UAA13839@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <370.880078739@time.cdrom.com> <199711210537.WAA15178@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199711210537.WAA15178@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Nov 20, 1997 at 10:37:56PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Nov 20, 1997 at 10:37:56PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > To which Jordan K. Hubbard replied: > > Hmmm. Well, just to inject a note of cold reality into this, we have > > a lot of people who bill themselves that way but they don't appear to > > be much on taking on any actual projects, it seems, or we'd have had > > our zip library API or our Turbovision based object set for TCL or our > > device registration mechanism or our new package system (based on much > > of the previous) or any of the host of other things which I and others > > have called out for over the last 3 years (and which need to be > > essentially written from scratch, having found no appropriate "canned > > solutions" out there). Would it be worth adding these (and no doubt others) to the "What Is Needed" in the "Contributing to FreeBSD" section of the Handbook? > I don't have a lot of bandwidth left for big coding projects in my > copious spare time, which amounts to 2 hours on Sunday afternoon, if I'm > lucky, each week. I do, however, have an hour or so each night after > the baby goes to sleep before I completely bomb out, and can > occasionally write lucid replies to queries during those times. If > someone wants to tap into the expertise I have and ask a few questions, > I'm more than glad to help. I know this isn't what you were asking about, but there are plenty of odds and ends that might suit people without the time or inclination to become a kernel hacker: 1. Check whether all FreeBSD's contributed software is up to date. 2. Port more recent versions of contributed software to FreeBSD. 3. Convert contributed software to use /usr/src/contrib. 4. Try to find year 2000 bugs (and hopefully fix them). 5. Build the source tree (or just a small part of it) with extra warnings enabled (eg -Wmissing-prototypes) and clean up some of the warnings. 6. Remind committers to send patches for ports and contributed source back to the original authors. :-) 7. If you run -current and have enough spare CPU cycles/disk space, do a "make release" every now and again and try to install it on a spare machine. 8. Read the freebsd-bugs list. There might be a problem you can comment constructively on (ie not just shout "me too!!"), or with patches you can test. Or you could even try to fix a problem yourself. 9. Read through the FAQ and the Handbook. If there's something that's badly explained, out of date or even just completely wrong, let us know. Better still, send us a fix (SGML is not difficult to learn, but there is no objection to ASCII submissions). 10. Read the freebsd-questions list and the comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc newsgroup occasionally (or even frequently). It can be very satisfying to share your expertise and help people solve their problems; sometimes, you can gain ideas for things to work on. Occasionally, you may even learn something new :-) Well, that's ten possibilities without thinking too hard (some of which don't even require programming skills!). Maybe a "non-guru" sub-section of "Contributing to FreeBSD" is called for? -- In theory, theory is better than practice. In practice, it isn't. James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 18:04:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04137 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:04:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04118 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:03:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.135.140]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10872; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:33:36 +1030 (CST) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id LAA00357; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:52:24 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19971121115224.47493@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:52:24 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Annelise Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <24684.879743950@jkh.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 01:26:22AM -0800 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 01:26:22AM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > Maybe in 20 or 30 years the language we will all want to learn as a > second language will be Chinese. Why only in 20 or 30 years? I'd say the time is now. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 18:04:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04173 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:04:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04150 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:04:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.135.140]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10888; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:33:49 +1030 (CST) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id LAA00347; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:51:31 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19971121115130.39592@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:51:30 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Charles Mott Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <244.879724001@jkh.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Charles Mott on Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 05:27:52PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 05:27:52PM -0700, Charles Mott wrote: > > In the late 1800s and early 1900s, Americans working in the areas of > physics, aerodynamics, chemistry and chemical engineering often had to > _learn_ German (not just pass an exam) in order to keep up with > developments. Sic transit gloria mundi Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 18:05:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04279 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:05:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04274 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:05:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.135.140]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10937; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:35:05 +1030 (CST) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id LAA00376; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:55:37 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19971121115536.25974@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:55:36 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathan Chen Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] References: <3642.879762062@jkh.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathan Chen on Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:19:18AM +1300 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 18, 1997 at 10:19:18AM +1300, Jonathan Chen wrote: > Aside from Mainland China, Taiwan and Singapore; I'd say that > Cantonese will get you by in most Chinese communities in the world. Aside from North America, Europe, Australia and New Zealand, I'd say that Pidgin English will get you by in most English communities in the world. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 18:55:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06714 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:55:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06709 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:55:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if2-34.ida.net [208.141.171.91]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id TAA29158; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:55:18 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:54:43 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Greg Lehey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-Reply-To: <19971121115130.39592@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, Nov 16, 1997 at 05:27:52PM -0700, Charles Mott wrote: > > > > In the late 1800s and early 1900s, Americans working in the areas of > > physics, aerodynamics, chemistry and chemical engineering often had to > > _learn_ German (not just pass an exam) in order to keep up with > > developments. > > Sic transit gloria mundi > Greg > Well, you know, important world languages come and go. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 21:51:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14407 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:51:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14399 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:51:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA23539; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:51:44 -0800 (PST) To: James Raynard cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentor program (was: Stealable idea?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:14:07 GMT." <19971121211407.44634@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:51:43 -0800 Message-ID: <23535.880177903@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Would it be worth adding these (and no doubt others) to the "What Is Needed" > in the "Contributing to FreeBSD" section of the Handbook? Sure. Add it to your suggested list of projects, maybe? :-) > I know this isn't what you were asking about, but there are plenty of > odds and ends that might suit people without the time or inclination to > become a kernel hacker: > [a number of very good suggestions elided] > 7. If you run -current and have enough spare CPU cycles/disk space, > do a "make release" every now and again and try to install it > on a spare machine. This one could also be rephrased to say: "There is a machine which builds a full release once a day named current.freebsd.org - every now and then, try and install the latest release from it and report any failures in the process." I don't think that many will be stalwart enough to build full releases, and of those that do it's possible that they'd use up more developer time asking more questions about the process than is saved in testing, so I'd really rather refer people to the existing release server first. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 21 22:04:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15048 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15038 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA23692; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:36 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Language Barrier [Was: Could FreeBSD be ...] In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:52:24 +0800." <19971121115224.47493@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:36 -0800 Message-ID: <23689.880178676@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 01:26:22AM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > > Maybe in 20 or 30 years the language we will all want to learn as a > > second language will be Chinese. > > Why only in 20 or 30 years? I'd say the time is now. But only Mandarin, right? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 00:04:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA21303 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dns.top.net (dns.top.net [204.214.28.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21290 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:04:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from weasniak@geocities.com) From: weasniak@geocities.com Received: from oida.dyn.ml.org (max1-46.top.net [204.214.28.195]) by dns.top.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id CAA07618; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 02:03:13 -0600 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19971121115733.52892@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 02:03:32 -0000 (GMT) To: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentor program (was: Stealable idea?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund , Wes Peters , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 21-Nov-97 Eivind Eklund wrote: >However, with the level of enthusiasm for this idea among the >committers (read: absolutely none), I've dropped doing anything more >about setting up a mentor page or similar. It would be easy to set >up, but if nobody except me would take on the work of functioning as a >dedicated external contact for an external party, it seems fairly >pointless. I would be interested in doing something like this. (Especially being mentored) I have only been using Unix (FreeBSD) since May, and while I am picking up a lot, I still have a good portion of the learning curve to ride out. Also, I think that if we brought this request into a little more light (read: beyond -chat) we may find people that are willing to do some mentoring. I may be able to do a little in the lines of Tcl/Tk, but I don't know if I could answer any questions beyond some of the basics. ---------------------------------- Daniel Gast: Weasniak@geocities.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 04:22:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA03468 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA03456 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:22:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id NAA02366 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:22:00 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id NAA09366; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:07:01 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971122130701.LP34424@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:07:01 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Artificial Lifeform? References: <34735D3D.3F55C3DF@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> <199711210449.VAA14996@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711210449.VAA14996@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Nov 20, 1997 21:49:45 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Wes Peters wrote: > Xlock, the screen locker. One of the "screen saver" displays is > Conway's "game of life" using Sun logos. ;^) Pah, when did you try it last on FreeBSD? Probably more than two years ago, maybe even three. That's the time when i've submitted the daemon logo to the xlockmore maintainer. :) Wait, we've got CVS :-P revision 1.2 date: 1995/02/22 22:48:10; author: joerg; state: Exp; lines: +7 -6 Upgrade this beast to the most recent version. Now we've got the BSD daemon incorporated into the distribution. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 13:56:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA28832 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:56:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28826 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:56:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if2-6.ida.net [208.141.171.63]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA00523 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:56:37 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:56:02 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Book Club Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was intrigued by a recent Godzilla vs. Megara battle (well, actually it was a three-way battle in which Mothra also showed up) about boot code strategies. I could barely understand what was being said, but Terry Lambert did make some interesting book recommendations: (1) The Undocumented PC by Frank van Gilluwe, and (2) Protected Mode Software Architecture by Tom Shanley. Well, I went out and bought these books. My opinion is that Gilluwe's book is solid but Shanley's is a little low denisity (I might return it). Any other recommendations? Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 14:27:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00211 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:27:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00204 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:27:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA01241; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:26:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:26:04 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: Charles Mott cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Book Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > I was intrigued by a recent Godzilla vs. Megara battle > (well, actually it was a three-way battle in which Mothra > also showed up) about boot code strategies. I could barely > understand what was being said, but Terry Lambert did make > some interesting book recommendations: (1) The Undocumented > PC by Frank van Gilluwe, and (2) Protected Mode Software > Architecture by Tom Shanley. > > Well, I went out and bought these books. My opinion is > that Gilluwe's book is solid but Shanley's is a little low > denisity (I might return it). Any other recommendations? I haven't found one _better_ than the Shanley book, have you? On top of that, there's many areas that the van Gilluwe book skips completely, saying it's covered so well elsewhere, why bother (video specifically comes to mind, which is really skimped on). If you know of any better book than the Shanley book, I'd be really interested. Until you do find better, you might want to reconsider. The protected areas just aren't discussed, at least not from a non-Windows viewpoint. > > Charles Mott > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 14:44:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01331 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:44:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01326 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:44:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if2-6.ida.net [208.141.171.63]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA00566; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:44:24 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:43:49 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Chuck Robey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Book Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > > > I was intrigued by a recent Godzilla vs. Megara battle > > (well, actually it was a three-way battle in which Mothra > > also showed up) about boot code strategies. I could barely > > understand what was being said, but Terry Lambert did make > > some interesting book recommendations: (1) The Undocumented > > PC by Frank van Gilluwe, and (2) Protected Mode Software > > Architecture by Tom Shanley. > > > > Well, I went out and bought these books. My opinion is > > that Gilluwe's book is solid but Shanley's is a little low > > denisity (I might return it). Any other recommendations? > > I haven't found one _better_ than the Shanley book, have you? Obviously I'm not an expert or I would not have asked for other recommendations. BTW, I was asking about books covering the grungy, detailed side of OS and boot code programming in general. > On top of that, there's many areas that the van Gilluwe book skips > completely, saying it's covered so well elsewhere, why bother (video > specifically comes to mind, which is really skimped on). > > If you know of any better book than the Shanley book, I'd be really > interested. Until you do find better, you might want to reconsider. The > protected areas just aren't discussed, at least not from a non-Windows > viewpoint. My objections to Shanley are mainly on style. It reads like some lecture viewgraphs transcribed over to a book. If he and the publisher had worked a little, the book could have been half the size with the same content. But then my judgment in style is maybe out of the ordinary -- I think that the 4.3 BSD book by Leffler et al is a much clearer and well written book the 4.4 BSD (which had some of the same authors). Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 15:10:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02757 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02748 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:10:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA01422; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:09:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:09:23 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: Charles Mott cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Book Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > > I haven't found one _better_ than the Shanley book, have you? > > Obviously I'm not an expert or I would not have asked for other > recommendations. BTW, I was asking about books covering the grungy, > detailed side of OS and boot code programming in general. > > > On top of that, there's many areas that the van Gilluwe book skips > > completely, saying it's covered so well elsewhere, why bother (video > > specifically comes to mind, which is really skimped on). > > > > If you know of any better book than the Shanley book, I'd be really > > interested. Until you do find better, you might want to reconsider. The > > protected areas just aren't discussed, at least not from a non-Windows > > viewpoint. > > My objections to Shanley are mainly on style. It reads like some lecture > viewgraphs transcribed over to a book. If he and the publisher had worked > a little, the book could have been half the size with the same content. Yeah, I wasn't calling the world's greatest book, but when the field is that thin, well, I think it has to be a keeper, else you get nothing at all. The van Gilluwe book disappointed me in skipping many things I was specifically interested in, while doing a pedagogical OS for a class, but I had the field pretty well covered. When you leave the Unix and Windows fields, what's left is either completely roll-your-own, or you have to get really familiar with DPMI, and there's just nothing on DPMI out there except raw specs. Luckily, it's not the worst spec in the world. One thing that Shanley has going for him is that he doesn't mention Windows every 3rd word! > > But then my judgment in style is maybe out of the ordinary -- I think that > the 4.3 BSD book by Leffler et al is a much clearer and well written book > the 4.4 BSD (which had some of the same authors). > > Charles Mott > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 15:32:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03694 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:32:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03687 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:32:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (pm-if3-3.ida.net [204.228.203.162]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id QAA00615; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:32:35 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:32:00 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Chuck Robey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Book Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yeah, I wasn't calling the world's greatest book, but when the field is > that thin, well, I think it has to be a keeper, else you get nothing at > all. The van Gilluwe book disappointed me in skipping many things I was > specifically interested in, while doing a pedagogical OS for a class, but > I had the field pretty well covered. When you leave the Unix and Windows > fields, what's left is either completely roll-your-own, or you have to get > really familiar with DPMI, and there's just nothing on DPMI out there > except raw specs. Luckily, it's not the worst spec in the world. You've won the argument and saved the day for Shanley. I won't be testing amazon.com's return policy. At the risk of me sounding a little ignorant here, what is DPMI? Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 15:59:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05261 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:59:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from peeper.my.domain ([208.128.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05256 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:59:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tom@peeper.my.domain) Received: (from tom@localhost) by peeper.my.domain (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA14904; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:57:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19971122175754.27028@my.domain> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:57:54 -0600 From: Tom Jackson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RC5/64 source References: <19971121091909.57156@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Steve Price on Fri, Nov 21, 1997 at 10:44:59AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Nov 21, 1997 at 10:44:59AM -0600, Steve Price wrote: > > > On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > # It doesn't appear to be publically available. From the little I've > # gleaned from the RC5 lists, it appears that they are concerned that > # someone will falsely report a keyblock as completed, without actually > # doing the work. > # > > Darn. I requested that my father-in-law who works at a fairly large > company here in town (2nd or 3rd largest I believe) to contribute to > the cause and he said that he had reservations about it because in his > words, "How do I know it is not stealing all of my data while it > generates keys?". I thought if I could get the source... > > # I believe this is supposed to be addressed in the upcoming `V3' client. > # > # Team FreeBSD is now at #28, btw. > > Team FreeBSD broke into the top 30 on the same day that I turned 30. :) > > Steve > > # -- > # Jonathan > # > If you'all will check earlier on this mailing list, with a subject of *OS/2*, you will find the client source at www.distributed.net/rc5/. Tom From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 16:36:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07148 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:36:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wavefront.wavefront.com (root@ns.wavefront.com [204.73.244.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07137 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:36:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ocean@wavefront.com) Received: from wavefront.com by wavefront.wavefront.com (8.6.10/SMI-4.1.R931202) id SAA04223; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:35:10 -0600 Message-ID: <34777A80.76EDFAC5@wavefront.com> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:36:17 -0600 From: Michael Porter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: What can I do for profit? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was wondering if anyone had ideas on how I can make money with my computer. I am NOT interested in "get rich quick" schemes regarding spam e-mail and such devices. I AM interested in doing WORK. Hmmmm.....what am I qualified for? Not much. The only work would be routine work, like data entry or something. I have minimal C skills, and adaquite HTML skills. (in other words, I can make a webpage to advertise my work, and *possibly* make a small program to ease the work) Working at home would be great because I could get more hours in (I'm a college student) and have an excuse to the wife for an upgrade (heheheh) I didn't post it to jobs because this isn't much a resume. I dunno, just thought I'd ask. Thanks, Michael Porter ocean@wavefront.com port0095@tc.umn.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 22 17:40:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09825 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:40:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09820 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:40:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA01776; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:39:47 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:39:46 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: Charles Mott cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Book Club In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > > Yeah, I wasn't calling the world's greatest book, but when the field is > > that thin, well, I think it has to be a keeper, else you get nothing at > > all. The van Gilluwe book disappointed me in skipping many things I was > > specifically interested in, while doing a pedagogical OS for a class, but > > I had the field pretty well covered. When you leave the Unix and Windows > > fields, what's left is either completely roll-your-own, or you have to get > > really familiar with DPMI, and there's just nothing on DPMI out there > > except raw specs. Luckily, it's not the worst spec in the world. > > You've won the argument and saved the day for Shanley. I won't be testing > amazon.com's return policy. At the risk of me sounding a little ignorant > here, what is DPMI? I had to learn about it, doing the OS that had to run under a Win95 dos box. In case you're wondering about that, it wasn't my idea ... anyhow, DPMI is a dos-world memory manager, one of basically 3 standards that exist. The lowest level is the extended memory standard, XMS. The next level up is VPCI, but VPCI didn't allow for multiple processes very well, and isn't therefore terribly useful. DPMI is represented by two specs, one for level 0.9 (which has by far the best writeup) and 1.0. Because the docs are so much better for 0.9, there are a whole field of DPMI servers available, that are mostly 0.9+ things. Allows you to do things like memory map areas, have demand loaded areas, do a malloc that is protected from other processes and returns larger than 64K, get/set/mangle and otherwise contort various descriptors, there's a lot of functionality. If you're doing things in the dos world, and don't want to depend on Windows libs, DPMI is the spec to use. There's a GNU version also. If you want to know more, there's a protected mode mailling list that has a pretty good signal/noise ratio. Send me mail if you're interested. > > Charles Mott > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------