From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 00:14:24 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 16:06:39 +0800 (WST)
From: Adrian Chadd <adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au>
To: The Devil Himself <fullermd@narcissus.ml.org>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Better late than never...  The FreeBSD News!
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On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, The Devil Himself wrote:

> plus, I've been saving all the FreeBSD vs Linux mails that have come
> through the questions list lately; I have a link to them off my home page,

Cool, I'll have a look in a minute.

> and I can always ... ahem... 'nudge' the results.  Although, comparing
> FreeBSD to Linux, I don't think the results would even NEED nudging...
> :-}

Ahh.. weeeeeelllll.......

Linux DOES have a lot going for it you know, its not a case of "FreeBSD
kicks linux in speed tests, so.. " . For example, check out the ISS
patches to the Later 2.x kernels. I've seen some speed comparisons and
initially it craps all over a stock standard FreeBSD installation.

There are some other (interesting) hacks, eg a patch that (with the right
mount option) lets you reference files / directories directly by inode
number, speeding up programs like INN and Squid by heaps. 

Does anyone know of anything in FreeBSD like this?

Something you should say in the Linux vs. FreeBSD is the way that the two
systems are implemented, ie there isn't "The Linux Distribution" unlike
FreeBSD, in Linux ideas flow much more freely and .. well .. I've seen
some cool ideas implemented by ugly code. :)

I'll start on it tonight, and put it up on a webpage for people to see.


Cya


-- 
Adrian Chadd			| UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ...
<adrian@psinet.net.au>		| (also known as the Good, the bad and the
				|				ugly..)





From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 00:26:39 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:25:42 +1000
From: David Nugent <davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au>
To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: root logins on secure tty's ?
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On Apr 04, 1997 at 12:17:28AM, Darren Reed wrote:
> for some reason, in 2.2.1 source, /bin/login root logins appear
> to be broken on secure tty's.

Yes, known problem and the fix is already in the tree. That
breakage which only existed for something less than 2 days
was just very poor timing. :-(


> in my ttys, I enable ttyv1 as secure, rootok == 1 and I get prompted
> for a password.

The intention of the code was to always ask for a password if a
root login is attempted if the tty is not secure. Unfortunately,
you have to invert the logic to get the correct result.

> Is this (perhaps) a leftover from the breakin earlier in the year ?

No.


Regards,

David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia
Voice +61-3-9791-9547  Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507  3:632/348@fidonet
davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 00:36:13 1997
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:00:28 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem FOUND
References: <3.0.32.19970404174607.00aa89a4@etinc.com> <Pine.NEB.3.95.970404202111.864B-100000@mail.burlco.lib.nj.us>
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As Ray Cummins wrote:

> Hm, I upgraded to 2.2.1-RELEASE from 2.1.0-RELEASE with no problems on a
> Dell 486sx-20 w/ 8MB RAM, using NFS.

I upgraded a 386sx-16 w/ 5 MB RAM using FTP over PLIP. :-)

(The 386 has now other (VM) problems though.)

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 00:36:52 1997
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 08:11:39 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Cc: robin!knarf@camelot.de
Subject: Re: kern/2923: panic: vm_fault: fault on nofault entry, addr: f6e21000
References: <199704041117.GAA10676@lakes.water.net> <m0wDJGm-00037tC@robin.camelot.de>
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As robin!knarf@camelot.de wrote:

> I typed `trace' and saw nfs_bioread, nfs_readdir, getdirentries,
> syscall, Xsyscall.
> 
> Does this mean the panic happend during an nfs_readdir as a client?

Yes, it does.

You might also wanna have a look at the most recent version of the
handbook, the chapter about kernel debugging.  I've described the
basic steps to get remote gdb to work.  This could be a big gain
investigating kernel data structures (if you've got a second FreeBSD
machine, of course).

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 00:38:29 1997
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Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 16:28:58 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Subject: Re: Some significant (daresay serious) problems with 2.2.1 install & keyboard
References: <199704051117.GAA17222@lakes.water.net>
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As Thomas David Rivers wrote:

>  For example, I believe our own sendmail.cf examples still
> reference ucbvax.Berkely.edu as the UUCP_RELAY; which is where
> a lot of this creeps in.

The UUCP_RELAY is a fairly bogus thing to have if you are connected
through UUCP yourself, although it's kinda mandatory. :-]

Default sendmail.cf files are something that should never be used, i
can't remember any machine where i've been able to use it.  It would
probably be better to have a stripped down default file, as opposed to
an all-whistles-and-bells file generated from freefall.mc.  (Who ever
got the idea to ship this twisted setup as the default?)  The stripped
down version should just do SMTP delivery and nothing else.  People
are expected to install the `ssmailcf' distribution if they need a
customized config file, about the same as they are expected to install
the `ssys' distribution if they need a specific kernel.

Have a look at the sendmail-via-UUCP setup description in the FAQ.
It's basically my configuration, and runs well here.  The mailertable
is the most practical way for UUCP sites.  Nevertheless, i think in
your case, it's DG-RTP's mailer that finally munges all addresses.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 00:49:00 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 05:48:23 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: Adrian Chadd <adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au>
cc: The Devil Himself <fullermd@narcissus.ml.org>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Better late than never...  The FreeBSD News!
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On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Adrian Chadd wrote:

> Something you should say in the Linux vs. FreeBSD is the way that the two
> systems are implemented, ie there isn't "The Linux Distribution" unlike
> FreeBSD, in Linux ideas flow much more freely and .. well .. I've seen
> some cool ideas implemented by ugly code. :)
>
	From my work on the PostgreSQL stuff, porting and developing for
the various Unix OSs out there, all I can say is that Linux is the *worst*
thing we have to deal with...*mainly* because of the poor distribution
mechanism that they have.

	One distribution will have option A, that is required, while 
the other distribution won't have it, so that an installer has to go 
out and find, grab and install it manually (libdl.a, should be standard,
no?)

	Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, FreeBSD kicks butt in the fact
that everything *is* centralized...we *know* that the only thing we have
to compensate for is variations in versions, and even then, I haven't had
any problems running 3.0 binaries on 2.2 machines, so even variations in
versions haven't hampered us much.

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 01:04:35 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 16:57:13 +0800 (WST)
From: Adrian Chadd <adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Better late than never...  The FreeBSD News!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.970406054339.17120D-100000@thelab.hub.org>
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On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

> 	From my work on the PostgreSQL stuff, porting and developing for
> the various Unix OSs out there, all I can say is that Linux is the *worst*
> thing we have to deal with...*mainly* because of the poor distribution
> mechanism that they have.
>

Yep, agreed.

> 	One distribution will have option A, that is required, while 
> the other distribution won't have it, so that an installer has to go 
> out and find, grab and install it manually (libdl.a, should be standard,
> no?)
>

Again, agreed.
 
> 	Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, FreeBSD kicks butt in the fact
> that everything *is* centralized...we *know* that the only thing we have
> to compensate for is variations in versions, and even then, I haven't had
> any problems running 3.0 binaries on 2.2 machines, so even variations in
> versions haven't hampered us much.
>

Yet again, agreed. :)

I was using Linux for a year until a nice person sent me a copy of
2.1.0-REL and I installed it. :) Best move I think I've made so far.
Having a FreeBSD distribution is one of the reasons I like FreeBSD so much
over Linux.

You have to remember that there isn't a "Linux" distribution as such, and
that point IMHO is one of the big downfalls of Linux. When people talk
about Linux, they should remember they are talking about a kernel, not an
operating system. 

-- 
Adrian Chadd			| UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ...
<adrian@psinet.net.au>		| (also known as the Good, the bad and the
				|				ugly..)


> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 01:27:38 1997
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	(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA234118502; Sun, 6 Apr 1997 19:21:42 +1000
From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ipfilter
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 19:21:41 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <19970405104422.22327.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Apr 5, 97 08:44:22 pm
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If things get changed too much, I've got no chance in hell of trying
to maintain ipfilter in -current.  It's hard enough trying to track
all the crazy changes that get made in NetBSD/FreeBSD these days
without this adding to it.

In some mail from proff@suburbia.net, sie said:
> I have almost completed my ipfilter-current integration. If anyone
> has any outstanding code can they please send it to me.
> 
> ps. darren: I'm considering breaking out nearly all of your #includes into
> 	    seven different files:
> 
> 		conf.h
> 		dns.h
> 		netkern.h
> 		kernel.h
> 		types.h
> 		netinet.h
> 		user.h
> 
> 	At the moment the <includes> are a mess and not easily maintainable
> 	across platforms. The changes in FreeBSD's include files don't
> 	help, but ipfilter should be able to adapt more easily to
> 	such conflicts.
> 
> 	I still haven't nailed the mbuf leak in the tcp-state
> 	following code.  I've stopped the various panics that occur
> 	when pass returns strange values, nonetheless ipf was happy
> 	to eat over a 1000k in data mbuf's with only a few dozen
> 	concurrently active connections last night, and a high-water
> 	(according to ipfstat) of 78 connections.
> 
> e.g
> 
> 	1408/1440 mbufs in use:
> 		1391 mbufs allocated to data
> 		1 mbufs allocated to packet headers
> 		13 mbufs allocated to protocol control blocks
> 		3 mbufs allocated to socket names and addresses
> 	313/318 mbuf clusters in use
> 	816 Kbytes allocated to network (98% in use)
> 	0 requests for memory denied
> 	0 requests for memory delayed
> 	0 calls to protocol drain routines
> 
> --
> Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
> 		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
> proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
> proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 01:43:50 1997
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Subject: sendmail in 2.2
In-Reply-To: <19970405162858.CA53416@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 5, 97 04:28:58 pm"
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 19:43:16 +1000 (EST)
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> As Thomas David Rivers wrote:
> 
> >  For example, I believe our own sendmail.cf examples still
> > reference ucbvax.Berkely.edu as the UUCP_RELAY; which is where
> > a lot of this creeps in.
> 
> The UUCP_RELAY is a fairly bogus thing to have if you are connected
> through UUCP yourself, although it's kinda mandatory. :-]
> 
> Default sendmail.cf files are something that should never be used, i
> can't remember any machine where i've been able to use it.  It would
> 
> -- 
> cheers, J"org

My gee-whiz qmail auto-everything port has been in
ftp.FreeBSD.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming for a while now (hint);

Cheers,
Julian.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 03:02:12 1997
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From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis)
Subject: How to declare device driver variables and data structures ?
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:04:01 +0200 (MET DST)
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Inside a device driver or a piece of kernel software, how should one decleare
the size of variables (if one has the choice):

i.e. if i know a variable can only have values 0 ... 32, shall i make it
an unsigned char ? Is it slower to make such variables an unsigned int
or an unsigned short ? What are the space vs. speed considerations ?

i.e. if i know a variable can only have values 0 ... 2048, shall i make it
an unsigned short ? Is it slower to make such variables an unsigned int ?

another i.e. for boolean variables, is it better to make them chars, shorts
or ints ? signed or unsigned ?

What is the speed of unsigned variables vs. signed variables ?

What is with future ports to other architectures ?

How does this all apply to variables being part of structures ?

hellmuth
-- 
hellmuth michaelis                hm@kts.org                    hamburg, europe

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 03:02:13 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:49:27 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: sendmail in 2.2
References: <19970405162858.CA53416@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970406094316.3731.qmail@suburbia.net>
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As proff@suburbia.net wrote:

> My gee-whiz qmail auto-everything port has been in
> ftp.FreeBSD.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming for a while now (hint);

qmail handles UUCP now?

If not, i have to forget it.
-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 04:07:16 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:06:34 +0100 (BST)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Does anyone have an IBSC2 ls binary?
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There are some serious bugs in IBSC2's implementation of getdents when
used on non-UFS filesystems which I want to fix.  I can't do it without
something to exercise getdents though.  I need a static linked ls binary
for IBSC2 for this testing.  I don't care if it is SCO or just GNU ls
(does that exist?) recompiled.

If there is anyone that actually uses IBSC2 and cares whether it works on
cd9660 and ext2fs filesystems, could they contact me.  Thanks.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 04:36:00 1997
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From: proff@suburbia.net
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Subject: Re: sendmail in 2.2
In-Reply-To: <19970406114927.GJ36371@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 6, 97 11:49:27 am"
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
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> As proff@suburbia.net wrote:
> 
> > My gee-whiz qmail auto-everything port has been in
> > ftp.FreeBSD.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming for a while now (hint);
> 
> qmail handles UUCP now?
> 
> If not, i have to forget it.
> -- 
> cheers, J"org

It doesn't handle bang paths, but you can otherwise set mail for
a particular domain/host to be handed over to a different MTA.
(e.g uux)

Cheers,
Julian.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 04:50:39 1997
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From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
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J"org writes:
> 
> As Thomas David Rivers wrote:
> 
> >  For example, I believe our own sendmail.cf examples still
> > reference ucbvax.Berkely.edu as the UUCP_RELAY; which is where
> > a lot of this creeps in.
> 
> The UUCP_RELAY is a fairly bogus thing to have if you are connected
> through UUCP yourself, although it's kinda mandatory. :-]
> 
> Default sendmail.cf files are something that should never be used, i
> can't remember any machine where i've been able to use it.  It would
> probably be better to have a stripped down default file, as opposed to
> an all-whistles-and-bells file generated from freefall.mc.  (Who ever
> got the idea to ship this twisted setup as the default?)  The stripped
> down version should just do SMTP delivery and nothing else.  People
> are expected to install the `ssmailcf' distribution if they need a
> customized config file, about the same as they are expected to install
> the `ssys' distribution if they need a specific kernel.

  We should probably make this clear, somehow.  I just commented on
 the fact that the default one (which people do, apparently, use a
 great deal of; since I get a non-trivial amount of mail sprinkled
 with !ucbvax.Berkeley.edu)  should be improved.
> 
> Have a look at the sendmail-via-UUCP setup description in the FAQ.
> It's basically my configuration, and runs well here.  The mailertable
> is the most practical way for UUCP sites.  Nevertheless, i think in
> your case, it's DG-RTP's mailer that finally munges all addresses.

 That's the approach I use.  I had been hacking sendmail.cf a great
 deal to handle this in-line; but the mailertable was just toooo easy.

 Although, I still have to rebuild sendmail to handle the DNS problem.
 (The NO_CANONIFY trick that worked in the past no longer works.)

> 
> -- 
> cheers, J"org
> 
> joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE

	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 05:22:41 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:09:09 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to declare device driver variables and data structures ?
References: <m0wDonp-00002GC@ernie.kts.org>
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In-Reply-To: <m0wDonp-00002GC@ernie.kts.org>; from Hellmuth Michaelis on Apr 6, 1997 12:04:01 +0200
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As Hellmuth Michaelis wrote:

> i.e. if i know a variable can only have values 0 ... 32, shall i make it
> an unsigned char ? Is it slower to make such variables an unsigned int
> or an unsigned short ? What are the space vs. speed considerations ?

You should probably only use shorter values than plain int or unsigned
if either the hardware enforces a particular size (since it's a mirror
of a hardware register or such), or if you pack a bunch of them
beneath, and they are static/extern/bss.  For automatic variables, i
think it's better to stick with the default size for your machine.
I'm not sure, but if it has an effect at all, restraining the size
will make the access slower.

> another i.e. for boolean variables, is it better to make them chars, shorts
> or ints ? signed or unsigned ?

int's, unless you have many of them in static storage.  But then, you
want to make them flag bits, and store them temporarily in ints
locally if you need them a lot.

> What is the speed of unsigned variables vs. signed variables ?

No difference, at least not on the ix86.

> What is with future ports to other architectures ?

Do you wanna predict the future? :-)

Generally, using variables of a non-default size is likely to make the
code slower.  Other machines have a lot more of registers, so there's
nothing wrong to store temp values in registers.  Don't use `register'
declarations, the compiler is usually better in knowing what should go
into a register.

> How does this all apply to variables being part of structures ?

Alignment problems...  see also style(9).

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 05:22:44 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 14:17:05 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Subject: Re: sendmail issues.
References: <199704061116.HAA21062@lakes.water.net>
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As Thomas David Rivers wrote:

>  Although, I still have to rebuild sendmail to handle the DNS problem.
>  (The NO_CANONIFY trick that worked in the past no longer works.)

Then you're doing something wrong.  It works for me (albeit with a
local nameserver).  I guess you forgot to put /etc/hosts before DNS in
host.conf.  Regardless of `nocanonify' and `nodns', it does for sure a
gethostby* for the local hostname(s).  If you don't use a (local)
nameserver, your /etc/hosts must provide these.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 05:29:08 1997
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From: proff@suburbia.net
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Subject: Re: ipfilter compilation
In-Reply-To: <19970406114210.NQ47928@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 6, 97 11:42:10 am"
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> As proff@suburbia.net wrote:
> 
> sys/netinet/Makefile: No such file or directory.

Yes, the situation isn't as simple as I had initially assumed. What
actually takes place is config(8) builds a one-for-all Makefile
in sys/compile/kernel_name based on path to option relationships
specified in sys/conf/files and i386/conf/files.

You could symlink the files back up to /usr/src/contrib/ipfilter/*,
or symlink these down to sys/netinet, but cvs doesn't appear able
to manage symlinks.

There seems to be nothing preventing config(8) handling the following
type of construct in sys/conf/files (which I think is the only
reasonable solution, given how the kernel build is performed).

../../contrib/ipfilter/ip_fil.c		optional ipfilter inet
../../contrib/ipfilter/fil.c		optional ipfilter inet
../../contrib/ipfilter/ip_nat.c		optional ipfilter inet
../../contrib/ipfilter/ip_frag.c	optional ipfilter inet
../../contrib/ipfilter/ip_state.c	optional ipfilter inet

instead of:
	
netinet/ip_fil.c	optional ipfilter inet
netinet/fil.c		optional ipfilter inet
netinet/ip_nat.c	optional ipfilter inet
netinet/ip_frag.c	optional ipfilter inet
netinet/ip_state.c	optional ipfilter inet

> The sys/ tree is not supposed to have references to outside.  I've
> been asking the very same question (about how to maintain the
> 
> -- 
> cheers, J"org

I don't see that outside references are a problem, provided the
user is kept aware of them. The kernel does depend on some outside
references i.e /usr/include and the all the tools used to build
it. LINT/generic can simple be given this comment

	# you need src/contrib/ipfilter accessable to compile
	# ipfilter into the kernel
	options IPFILTER
	#options IPFITLER_LKM
	options IPFILTER_LOG

This seems greatly perferable to me than splitting up a contributed
package in such a way that it will be effectively unmaintainable.

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 06:15:04 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: recent changes to aic7xxx.*
To: hackers@freebsd.org
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I just tried the recent commits of these files to sys/i386/scsi and
sys/dev/aic7xxx and the result: my system NOW HANGS as a result of
these error messages (well, I can still ping it, but nothing else,
not even use the ALT keys to switch console):

Apr  6 22:06:29 freebsd /kernel: st0(ahc0:4:0): SCB 0x0 - timed out in dataout phase, SCSISIGI == 0x6
Apr  6 22:06:29 freebsd /kernel: SEQADDR == 0x125
Apr  6 22:06:29 freebsd /kernel: st0(ahc0:4:0): abort message in message buffer

previously I could still do other things on my system...not any more.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 06:21:41 1997
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Subject: Re: How to declare device driver variables and data structures ?
In-Reply-To: <m0wDonp-00002GC@ernie.kts.org> from Hellmuth Michaelis at "Apr 6, 97 12:04:01 pm"
To: hm@kts.org
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 09:19:03 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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> Inside a device driver or a piece of kernel software, how should one decleare
> the size of variables (if one has the choice):
> 
> i.e. if i know a variable can only have values 0 ... 32, shall i make it
> an unsigned char ? Is it slower to make such variables an unsigned int
> or an unsigned short ? What are the space vs. speed considerations ?

There is something special about that data type so make it a typedef,
or for small ranges, an enum.

> i.e. if i know a variable can only have values 0 ... 2048, shall i make it
> an unsigned short ? Is it slower to make such variables an unsigned int ?

It is an 11 bit temperature sensor? Make it a temp_sensor.  I'd
probably then make temp_sensor an unsigned int.  You may have a
memory starved target where you conditionally make it an unsigned
short, or if you have arrays of 4096 of them make it a short.

> another i.e. for boolean variables, is it better to make them chars, shorts
> or ints ? signed or unsigned ?

Personally I always make booleans ints because the knowledge that
an int is a boolean is deep in C, and boolean-ness is best indicated
by naming (e.g., temp_is_high()) than type (boolean temp_check())
I'll never convince other people of this, though, and I try to
preserve the approach of whatever I'm working on.

> What is the speed of unsigned variables vs. signed variables ?
On a modern X86?  Everything is drowned out by accessing an I/O port
in the driver.  I'm sure there are instructions for both flavors
and they are about the same.

> What is with future ports to other architectures ?
I do run my software on other architectures, usually smaller ones,
and that is where typedefs that correspond to the data type usage
come in handy.

> How does this all apply to variables being part of structures ?
Recursively?  One point is that attempts to micro optimize size using
smallest possible data types may be pointless in modern architectures due
to alignment issues.

-- 
Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com)   Realtime Machine Control and Simulation
HD Associates, Inc.               Voice: 508 433 6936

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 06:45:48 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: recent changes to aic7xxx.*
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:40:19 +1000 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: <199704061314.GAA20579@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Darren Reed" at Apr 6, 97 11:09:34 pm
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In some mail from Darren Reed, sie said:
> 
> 
> I just tried the recent commits of these files to sys/i386/scsi and
> sys/dev/aic7xxx and the result: my system NOW HANGS as a result of
> these error messages (well, I can still ping it, but nothing else,
> not even use the ALT keys to switch console):
> 
> Apr  6 22:06:29 freebsd /kernel: st0(ahc0:4:0): SCB 0x0 - timed out in dataout phase, SCSISIGI == 0x6
> Apr  6 22:06:29 freebsd /kernel: SEQADDR == 0x125
> Apr  6 22:06:29 freebsd /kernel: st0(ahc0:4:0): abort message in message buffer
> 
> previously I could still do other things on my system...not any more.

FWIW, I see those error messages on:

freebsd, netbsd, solaris2

maybe there is something in the 2940 which is just "buggy" when dealing
with this situation ?


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 06:54:36 1997
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From: mark thompson <thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.com
Subject: crontab nit?
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/etc/daily didn't run last night. Looking at the log, it appears that
when daylight savings time started, the hour of 2-3 was skipped. Oddly,
2 is when daily is scheduled to run. 

On my system, i just changed that to 1am. It seems that this might be a
good idea in general in the US.

i18n question... around the world, when DST starts, what hour gets skipped?
When it ends, what hour gets repeated?

-mark

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 07:14:52 1997
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From: mark thompson <thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com>
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   From: proff@suburbia.net
   Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 19:43:16 +1000 (EST)

   My gee-whiz qmail auto-everything port has been in
   ftp.FreeBSD.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming for a while now (hint);

   Cheers,
   Julian.

Are we ready for religious wars? I certainly think that qmail should be
an optional MTA for freebsd (if it can't be the default). Admittedly,
you have to do things 'differently' with qmail, but arguably, the
'different' way is the way it should always have been.

Let the people decide! If the port already exists, why isn't it in there?

-mark

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Subject: Re: ipfilter compilation
In-Reply-To: <19970406150753.SQ24384@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 6, 97 03:07:53 pm"
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 00:15:02 +1000 (EST)
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> As proff@suburbia.net wrote:
> 
> > I don't see that outside references are a problem, provided the
> > user is kept aware of them.
> 
> That's probably the best solution to handle src/contrib code for
> kernel-land, yes.  But it makes packaging the distributions harder.
> Right now, it's sufficient to install the `ssys' distribution if you
> wanna rebuild your kernel.  If we simply reference through
> ../../contrib in sys/conf/files, this will require the luser to
> install the entire contrib distribution bloat as it stands now.
> 
> -- 
> cheers, J"org

Anyone object to src/sys_contrib then? In cases like ipfilter it
would still contain user-land kernel support code, but this would
be quite reasonable size-wise compared to src/contrib.

Cheers,
Julian


--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 07:34:45 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: crontab nit?
To: thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com (mark thompson)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 00:27:55 +1000 (EST)
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In-Reply-To: <19970406135347.2749.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> from "mark thompson" at Apr 6, 97 01:53:47 pm
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In some mail from mark thompson, sie said:
> 
> /etc/daily didn't run last night. Looking at the log, it appears that
> when daylight savings time started, the hour of 2-3 was skipped. Oddly,
> 2 is when daily is scheduled to run. 
> 
> On my system, i just changed that to 1am. It seems that this might be a
> good idea in general in the US.
> 
> i18n question... around the world, when DST starts, what hour gets skipped?
> When it ends, what hour gets repeated?

from 2am -> 3am
from 2am -> 1am (if I recall correctly)

cron needs to have a few smarts about what to do, the hp-ux man page for it
addresses all the relevant bits.

for the backward step, cron jobs should only be run once.
on the forward skip, it is arguable, but none should be run if scheduled
for 2am-3am

(or something like that)


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 07:49:06 1997
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Subject: Re: crontab nit?
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At 2:53 pm +0100 6/4/97, mark thompson wrote:
>[...]
>i18n question... around the world, when DST starts, what hour gets skipped?
>When it ends, what hour gets repeated?

I guess it depends where you are. In the UK, by statute, the change happens
at 0200 on the "old" time.


--
Bob Bishop              (0118) 977 4017  international code +44 118
rb@gid.co.uk        fax (0118) 989 4254  between 0800 and 1800 UK



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 08:02:20 1997
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From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: proff@suburbia.net
cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ipfilter compilation
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On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 proff@suburbia.net wrote:

> > As proff@suburbia.net wrote:
> > 
> > > I don't see that outside references are a problem, provided the
> > > user is kept aware of them.
> > 
> > That's probably the best solution to handle src/contrib code for
> > kernel-land, yes.  But it makes packaging the distributions harder.
> > Right now, it's sufficient to install the `ssys' distribution if you
> > wanna rebuild your kernel.  If we simply reference through
> > ../../contrib in sys/conf/files, this will require the luser to
> > install the entire contrib distribution bloat as it stands now.
> > 
> > -- 
> > cheers, J"org
> 
> Anyone object to src/sys_contrib then? In cases like ipfilter it
> would still contain user-land kernel support code, but this would
> be quite reasonable size-wise compared to src/contrib.

I would prefer src/sys/contrib.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 08:24:42 1997
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To: dfr@nlsystems.com (Doug Rabson)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 01:24:02 +1000 (EST)
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> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 proff@suburbia.net wrote:
> > 
> > Anyone object to src/sys_contrib then? In cases like ipfilter it
> > would still contain user-land kernel support code, but this would
> > be quite reasonable size-wise compared to src/contrib.
> 
> I would prefer src/sys/contrib.
> 
> --
> Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com

The problem with this is that packages in src/sys/contrib/* may have
non-BSD copyrights -- but because it is under sys, you don't have any
choice in the matter.

Cheers,
Julian.

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

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On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote:

> As Hellmuth Michaelis wrote:
> 
> > i.e. if i know a variable can only have values 0 ... 32, shall i make it
> > an unsigned char ? Is it slower to make such variables an unsigned int
> > or an unsigned short ? What are the space vs. speed considerations ?
> 
> You should probably only use shorter values than plain int or unsigned
> if either the hardware enforces a particular size (since it's a mirror
> of a hardware register or such), or if you pack a bunch of them
> beneath, and they are static/extern/bss.  For automatic variables, i
> think it's better to stick with the default size for your machine.
> I'm not sure, but if it has an effect at all, restraining the size
> will make the access slower.
> 

Well, what about all the graphics code? It isn't reasonable to have all
the data as ints if the picture is only 8bit, is it? (Special MMX
instructions are totally another story).

	Sander

[snip]

> > How does this all apply to variables being part of structures ?
> 
> Alignment problems...  see also style(9).
> 
> -- 
> cheers, J"org
> 
> joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
> Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
> 


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At 04:04 PM 4/5/97 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
>> >There is no evidence, short of a shuffle, that will guarantee you
>> >that the problem is resolved, not masked by the additional RAM.
>> >
>> >You will need to do a full shuffle so that an 8M situation without the
>> >possibly flakey RAM is also tested (and verified to fail).
>> 
>> Ok, but why can I load any OTHER version of Freebsd on these machines,
>
>Possibly because it is a bug in FreeBSD, but since you are in
>the vast minority, probably because the usage patterns are different
>between revisions and you are just "lucky".  8-(.

Thats just it. I cant see how "usage patterns" can be an issue, as I'm
using the
same boot diskette (ie kernel) as everyone else. If its not the RAM amount,
I'd love to know just what it is because I know its going to be a problem
in the 
future. Anyone have any ideas on how to get some decent diagnostics?

I think I might try doing a reload off of a custom kernel....is there an
easy way to 
install a different kernel on the boot floppy, or to build the boot floppy
with a 
non generic kernel?

Dennis
>
>
>> and what is the chance of a random ram problem having the exact
>> same failure on 2 different machines?
>
>Small, but not non-existant.
>
>
>> I dont buy it.....sounds like a "mine works so you're wrong"
>> answer to me.
>
>Do the shuffle; if it fails in all 8M configurations on your hardware,
>you have proven it is a FreeBSD bug.  Right now, all you have is a
>strong feeling that it is a FreeBSD bug, and we have a strong feeling
>that "a million other users not having the problem can't be wrong".
>
>Circumstantially, our feeling is simpler than yours (Occam's razor)
>until you generate contradictory evidence.
>
>
>					Regards,
>					Terry Lambert
>					terry@lambert.org
>---
>Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
>or previous employers.
>
>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 09:11:59 1997
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> At 2:53 pm +0100 6/4/97, mark thompson wrote:
> >[...]
> >i18n question... around the world, when DST starts, what hour gets
> skipped?
> >When it ends, what hour gets repeated?
> 
> I guess it depends where you are. In the UK, by statute, the change happens
> at 0200 on the "old" time.

Not any more - it's now 01:00.  The reason for this is harmonization
across europe.  Regardless of which actual zone, the change now occurs at
the same instant, keeping the time difference between zones constant,
(thereby abolishing the maze of footnotes in rail/air timetables to
do with the odd behaviour of cross-boarder trains/planes on the days
when the times changed).  See /usr/src/share/zoneinfo/europe.

Hence the answer to the original poster's question is that you can't win:
there is no one hour to avoid, since the change occurs at different
times in different places.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 09:31:22 1997
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From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: sendmail in 2.2
References: <19970405162858.CA53416@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970406094316.3731.qmail@suburbia.net> <19970406114927.GJ36371@uriah.heep.sax.de>
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According to J Wunsch:
> qmail handles UUCP now?
> 
> If not, i have to forget it.

The problem is not per se the transport mechanism (you can put the mail
thru uux so UUCP is supported) but in the fact that if you try to manage a
mailing-list with it thru UUCP, you'll end up sending as many individual
messages as you have subscribers (i.e. multiply by N your phone bill).

If it can be disabled now (this "one recipient per message" feature) then
one of my biggest gripes about Qmail can be forgotten.

The other ones (logs less informative than  sendmail's, configuration
mechanism, unreadable source code and author's attitude) can't be helped
much I'm afraid.

Haven't tried 1.0 though.
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #41: Sun Mar 23 23:01:22 CET 1997

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 09:53:00 1997
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From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704061600.MAA22131@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!suburbia.net!proff, ponds!squirrel.tgsoft.com!thompson
Subject: Re: sendmail in 2.2
Cc: ponds!freefall.freebsd.org!hackers
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> 
>    From: proff@suburbia.net
>    Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 19:43:16 +1000 (EST)
> 
>    My gee-whiz qmail auto-everything port has been in
>    ftp.FreeBSD.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming for a while now (hint);
> 
>    Cheers,
>    Julian.
> 
> Are we ready for religious wars? I certainly think that qmail should be
> an optional MTA for freebsd (if it can't be the default). Admittedly,
> you have to do things 'differently' with qmail, but arguably, the
> 'different' way is the way it should always have been.
> 
> Let the people decide! If the port already exists, why isn't it in there?
> 
> -mark
> 

 Ok - I'm ready to be convinced (I've hacked on sendmail enough to
think "there's got to be an easier way.")

 I've got several machines all networked together on a private network;
mail goes out/comes in on one of the machines via a UUCP connection.
Each user has a .forward which sends the mail to their own machine
(a reasonable approach on a small network.)  Also, there are two Win/95
machines I'd like to add to this...

 Can qmail handle it, and, if so, how do I set it up?

	- Dave Rivers -


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 11:20:42 1997
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From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704061706.NAA00388@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!etinc.com!dennis, ponds!lambert.org!terry
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem FOUND
Cc: ponds!freebsd.org!hackers, ponds!atrad.adelaide.edu.au!msmith
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> >Possibly because it is a bug in FreeBSD, but since you are in
> >the vast minority, probably because the usage patterns are different
> >between revisions and you are just "lucky".  8-(.
> 
> Thats just it. I cant see how "usage patterns" can be an issue, as I'm
> using the
> same boot diskette (ie kernel) as everyone else. If its not the RAM amount,
> I'd love to know just what it is because I know its going to be a problem
> in the 
> future. Anyone have any ideas on how to get some decent diagnostics?
> 
> I think I might try doing a reload off of a custom kernel....is there an
> easy way to 
> install a different kernel on the boot floppy, or to build the boot floppy
> with a 
> non generic kernel?

 Well, strange you should ask... 

 Here's a shell script I hacked up for 2.1.6, which I have been told works
for 2.1.7.  With some slight modifications (check it against the makefiles
in /usr/src/release) it could possibly work for 2.2.x.  The script assumes
you have /stand on your local machine from the 2.2.1 install (it picks
that up instead of rebuilding it.) 

> 
> Dennis

 Also, just to offer words of encouragement - I _know_ how frustrating
this can be (just look at some of my other mail for examples :-) )  However,
when all is said-and-done, this is a deterministic environment.  There
answer _is_ there...


	- Dave Rivers -


#! /bin/sh

rd=/usr/tmp/release
rm -r -f $rd
mkdir $rd
cd /usr/src/release
rm release.1
make RELEASEDIR=$rd release.1
mkdir $rd/mfsfd
mkdir $rd/mfsfd/stand
(cd /stand; tar cf - . ) | (cd $rd/mfsfd/stand; tar xf -)
mkdir $rd/mfsfd/dev

( cd /dev && \
   ls console tty ttyv0 ttyv1 ttyv2 ttyv3 null zero \
   *[sw]d* cuaa[01] cuaa[23] fd[01] rfd[01] \
   cd0a mcd0a scd0a matcd0a wcd0c rst0 rft0 rwt0 | \
 cpio -dump ${RD}/mfsfd/dev )
( cd $rd/mfsfd/dev && rm -f *[sw]d*[bdefgh] )

mkdir $rd/floppies
mnt=/mnt
bootmfssize=1450
mfsinode=42000
mkdir $rd/trees
mkdir $rd/trees/bin
mkdir $rd/trees/bin/usr
mkdir $rd/trees/bin/usr/mdec
(cd /usr/mdec; tar cf - rawboot boot1 boot2 fdboot bootfd) | (cd $rd/trees/bin/usr/mdec; tar xf -)
(cd /usr/mdec; tar cf - rawboot) | (cd $rd/stage/trees/bin/usr/mdec; tar xf -)
sh -e /usr/src/release/doFS.sh $rd $mnt $bootmfssize $rd/mfsfd $mfsinode auto
mv fs-image fs-image.std
mv fs-image.size fs-image.std.size
make RELEASEDIR=$rd doMFSKERN FSIMAGE=std
mv $rd/stage/floppies/bootstd.flp $rd/floppies/boot.flp

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 11:20:46 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 13:02:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704061702.NAA00373@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers
Subject: 2.2.1-RELEASE still changing???
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I've just ftp'd to ftp.freebsd.org to see if the XFree86
stuff has been rebuilt for 2.2.1-RELEASE (I don't believe
there's been any "official" status on the utmp issues there.)

However; I discovered that the compat21 and floppies as well
as some other files have changed.

This can be quite frustrating; as it takes me about two weeks
to down-load all of 2.2.1 [that's 2.2.1-RELEASE, the packages,
and XFree86...]  Frequently things fail because of network
problems (I believe at my end)... and have to be restarted.  Or,
the machine doing the download crashes...

Then, of course, when things change I either have to determine
exactly what changes (re: my frequent calls for CHECKSUM.MD5 files)
and try to patch things together, or restart everything...

Can we treat the "released" version as  'frozen'  (albeit with
potential bugs) and adopt a different approach to fixes.  Something
like:

  2.2.1-RELEASE

 and then maybe

  2.2.1-postRELEASE

(or something else appropriate).   That would give me, at least,
a better shot at actually getting something...

 Another approach would be to announce these changes ahead of time;
I could halt my down-loads then instead of discovering it after-the-fact.
[Maybe they are announced, and I'm just on the wrong mailing list?]

 Of course, if I'm the only one affected; then forget about this...

 Finally, a sufficient answer could be "why don't you just wait for your
CD-ROM in the mail?" (only problem here is the absence of DES.)

	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 12:09:52 1997
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Subject: Re: Better late than never...  The FreeBSD News!
To: adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au (Adrian Chadd)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:50:50 -0700 (MST)
Cc: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, hackers@freebsd.org
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> There are some other (interesting) hacks, eg a patch that (with the right
> mount option) lets you reference files / directories directly by inode
> number, speeding up programs like INN and Squid by heaps. 
> 
> Does anyone know of anything in FreeBSD like this?

Yes. At one point in time I implemented a name-space escape to do this
sort of "open by inode" using the "\\" POSIX name space escape sequence.

It's pretty trivial to do.

I also modified the ioctl() to propagate down to the FS level (it's
stupidly assumed that an ioctl() can only apply to a device, not a
file, even though there is an op).  It took an ino_t argument and
operated on an fd that was open on the FS which you wanted the lookup
on, and it returned an fd for the inode in the per process open file
table.

This second was hugely faster (I actually used it to speed up SAMBA
and CAP significantly), but requires that you change the internal
handling of open file instances so that they can be generated within
a file system (ie: basically the vnode instance/system open file
table changes I have been proposing).


> Something you should say in the Linux vs. FreeBSD is the way that the two
> systems are implemented, ie there isn't "The Linux Distribution" unlike
> FreeBSD, in Linux ideas flow much more freely and .. well .. I've seen
> some cool ideas implemented by ugly code. :)
> 
> I'll start on it tonight, and put it up on a webpage for people to see.

Make sure you also reference DOS emulation, VM86() support, and kernel
module implementations, as well as adherence to ABI standards and
object file format standards, 802.3 LLP support, and platforms other
than Intel (I hear Linux SMP now runs on SPARC hardware).  8-|.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:26:11 1997
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From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704070216.WAA01714@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!zeta.org.au!bde@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU,
        ponds!root.com!dg@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU,
        ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU,
        ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU,
        ponds!lambert.org!terry@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Some insight on "dup alloc" problems.....
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Ok -

 Possible insight #1.  The problem I have reproduced on the small
machine is not the same as the "dup alloc" problem - it appears to
be aha1542 specific.  [The "real" problem I'm getting at here appears
on both aha1542 and IDE..]

 In any event:

   Possible insight #2.

 Recall that I had mentioned that printf()'s in certain locations
masked the problem.   I took that idea and began a binary search
in the kernel... [since I had learned how to use ddb.]   What I 
did was insert a call to a function I could break on, then under
ddb break on that function and see if the problem goes away.

 I've narrowed the problem down to 8 lines (well, 5 if you don't
count comments) in aha1542.c (recall - this is 2.1.7 source); around
line 1670 or so, in the function aha_scsi_cmd():

        if (!(flags & SCSI_NOMASK)) {
if(debug) break_tdr4();
                s = splbio();   /* stop instant timeouts */
                timeout(aha_timeout, (caddr_t)ccb, (xs->timeout * hz) / 1000);
                aha_startmbx(ccb->mbx);
                /*      
                 * Usually return SUCCESSFULLY QUEUED
                 */
                splx(s);
                SC_DEBUG(xs->sc_link, SDEV_DB3, ("sent\n"));
if(debug) break_tdr3();
debug = 0;
                return (SUCCESSFULLY_QUEUED);
        }


 notice the calls to "break_tdr4() and "break_tdr3()" - these are two
empty functions just to be place-holders for ddb break points.
Also, the variable "debug" is an auto that is set at the top of the
function when the block is the one I'm interested in:

    if(xs->bp && xs->bp->b_pblkno==65632) {
       debug = 1;
    }


 So; here's what I've learned.

 If I break at the call to break_tdr4() - the problem is masked - it
does *not* occur.

 If I break at the call to break_tdr3() - the problem is *not* masked -
it does occur.

 So - it would seem that some interrupt is coming in that causes this
timeout not to function properly... 

 I notice that ahaintr() does an untimeout() on the ccb it got from
the mailbox (aha_mbx)... but, that timeout() seems to be properly
protected by an splbio()/splx(); so I wouldn't think the untimeout
could incorrectly remove it...  Besides - if aha_timeout() had run; 
there is a nice little "timed out" message that gets printed - which 
I'm not seeing..  That kinda discounts any timeout issue...

 However, aha_startmbx() is simply a #define that notes the command has
been started and does an outb() to start the transfer.... so it's likely
not there as well.

 Thus - it appears the command is started; then the aha_mbx that's being
used for the command must be getting messed up somehow.  That seems like
it could happen if aha_get_ccb() didn't protect the ccb free list
appropriately; which could happen if the xs->flags aren't set correctly
and splbio() isn't done in aha_get_ccb()...  I'm going to investigate
this idea unless someone comes up and says "Oh yeah; it must be XXXX"

 Ideas???

	  - Thanks -
	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:31:12 1997
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Subject: Re: ipfilter compilation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970407000725.654M-100000@herring.nlsystems.com> from Doug Rabson at "Apr 7, 97 00:08:27 am"
To: dfr@nlsystems.com (Doug Rabson)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:32:38 +1000 (EST)
Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org
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> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 proff@suburbia.net wrote:
> > The problem with this is that packages in src/sys/contrib/* may have
> > non-BSD copyrights -- but because it is under sys, you don't have any
> > choice in the matter.
> 
> I thought about this but it didn't seem to be a problem since there is a
> mix of GNU and BSD copyrights in the src/contrib tree already.  Having a
> similar mix in the src/sys/contrib tree would be OK.
> 
> --
> Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com

This gives the user no choice in the matter however. If they get src/src
they get src/sys/contrib. To my mind the philosophy of the two hierarchies
are different enough to seperate them at the root. On one hand we have
"the BSD kernel", on the other hand "contributed software, which may
not have BSD copyright, containing some kernel code, but perhaps only
a small percentage of compared to userland code".

Cheers,
Julian.


--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:31:10 1997
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970404140638.13063C-100000@korin.warman.org.pl> from Andrzej Bialecki at "Apr 4, 97 02:10:58 pm"
To: abial@korin.warman.org.pl (Andrzej Bialecki)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 23:29:13 +1000 (EST)
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> On Thu, 3 Apr 1997, Garrett Wollman wrote:
> 
> > <<On Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:06:41 +0200 (MET DST), Andrzej Bialecki <abial@korin.warman.org.pl> said:
> > in doing an IPv6 implementation that obeys style(9) and isn't
> > altogether bletcherous), there should not be IPv6 code in the -current
> > kernel.

Thats right. We can choose to have freeBSD the leader in the next
generation of network code, or we can choose style(9). The linux
ipv6 stack has already undergone a year of development, and is now
substantially complete. I doubt FreeBSD will have a ipv6 stack
inside the next three years if slavish adherence to style-guides
is considered the over-riding factor. An ipv6 stack is a mechanism
of considerable complexity not the work of fools. Now is the time
for people to put their hands up to perform the difficult task of
writing the stack internally, if they can do better, or shut up and
adapt the existing work of others.

Cheers,
Julian.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:32:42 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:04:15 +1000 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: mark thompson <thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: crontab nit?
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On 6 Apr 1997, mark thompson wrote:

> /etc/daily didn't run last night. Looking at the log, it appears that
> when daylight savings time started, the hour of 2-3 was skipped. Oddly,
> 2 is when daily is scheduled to run. 
> 
> On my system, i just changed that to 1am. It seems that this might be a
> good idea in general in the US.
> 
> i18n question... around the world, when DST starts, what hour gets skipped?
> When it ends, what hour gets repeated?

Every country I've even been in or had dealings with changes at 2am on
Saturday night/Sunday Morning, but in the back of my mind I think there is a 
middle eastern country which doesn't. 

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:33:36 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 00:08:27 +0100 (BST)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: proff@suburbia.net
cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: ipfilter compilation
In-Reply-To: <19970406152402.7205.qmail@suburbia.net>
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On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 proff@suburbia.net wrote:

> > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 proff@suburbia.net wrote:
> > > 
> > > Anyone object to src/sys_contrib then? In cases like ipfilter it
> > > would still contain user-land kernel support code, but this would
> > > be quite reasonable size-wise compared to src/contrib.
> > 
> > I would prefer src/sys/contrib.
> > 
> > --
> > Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
> 
> The problem with this is that packages in src/sys/contrib/* may have
> non-BSD copyrights -- but because it is under sys, you don't have any
> choice in the matter.

I thought about this but it didn't seem to be a problem since there is a
mix of GNU and BSD copyrights in the src/contrib tree already.  Having a
similar mix in the src/sys/contrib tree would be OK.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:35:24 1997
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To: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: sendmail in 2.2 
In-reply-to: <19970406161441.43355@keltia.freenix.fr> 
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 08:07:11 +1000
From: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
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On Sun, 6 Apr 1997 16:14:41 +0200  Ollivier Robert wrote:

> The problem is not per se the transport mechanism (you can put the mail
> thru uux so UUCP is supported) but in the fact that if you try to manage a
> mailing-list with it thru UUCP, you'll end up sending as many individual
> messages as you have subscribers (i.e. multiply by N your phone bill).

Qmail still has this feature, and looks likely to keep it.  I expect
teaching your mailing list program to hand mail off directly to uux
would work though.

Giles (maybe there are no more security holes in sendmail :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:37:47 1997
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Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 23:33:58 +0200
From: j@jette.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to declare device driver variables and data structures ?
References: <19970406140909.UB47399@uriah.heep.sax.de> <Pine.BSF.3.95.970406160306.24837A-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee>
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As Narvi wrote:

> Well, what about all the graphics code? It isn't reasonable to have all
> the data as ints if the picture is only 8bit, is it?

This only proves one thing: you gotta use your own brain. :-)

-- 
bye, J"org

...just travelling around.  Don't try reaching me except by mail. :)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:38:09 1997
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From: "SysX" <SysX@worldnet.att.net>
To: <support@cdrom.com>
Cc: "Sas Widjaja" <SysX@worldnet.att.net>, <hackers@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: FreeBSD 2.1.7 Installation
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:36:41 -0700
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Apr 7, 1997

Dear Support Team:

I am experiencing some difficulty in installing the FreeBSD that I got from
you onto my computer.  I have two hard drives and one atapi CD drive on my
system. The first hard drive is 1.6 Gbytes and the second hard drive is 3.2
Gbytes. On the first hard drive I installed DOS and FreeBSD, The first 402
Mbytes is allocated for DOS and the second 
partition 1.2 Gbytes is allocated for FreeBSD and third partition about 2
Mbytes is allocated for Boot Manager for dual boot. Since I have an atapi
CD drive so I could not access the CD drive yet.  To make FreeBSD
installation work, I formatted the second hard drive with DOS and copied
FreeBSD CD onto it. I was able to install FreeBSD from this DOS partition
however I was able to install the packages from "PACKAGES/ALL" directory
because the FreeBSD doesn't recognize the DOS partition where the packages
is copied to. After boot to FreeBSD I tried to mount the DOS partition to
manually install the packages, I issued the mount command such as: $ mount
/dev/wd1s1 /home, the system responded with: /dev/wd1s1 on /usr/home:
incorrect super block. --> what kind of parm is needed for DOS partition? 
Would you please let me know the correct command to mount:
1. A hard drive DOS partition (/dev/wd1s1)
2. Drive A: DOS formatted floppy (fd0 ?)
3. Line printer on parallel port 1 (lpt0 ?)
Your help are sincerely appreciated. Thank you
Sas Widjaja
SysX@worldnet.att.net
    

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:38:53 1997
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Subject: Re: recent changes to aic7xxx.*
In-Reply-To: <199704061314.GAA20579@freefall.freebsd.org> from Darren Reed at "Apr 6, 97 11:09:34 pm"
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 00:17:58 +0300 (EET DST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, gibbs@freebsd.org
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> sys/dev/aic7xxx and the result: my system NOW HANGS as a result of

memio thing in kernel optios?

> Apr  6 22:06:29 freebsd /kernel: st0(ahc0:4:0): SCB 0x0 - timed out in dataout phase, SCSISIGI == 0x6
> Apr  6 22:06:29 freebsd /kernel: SEQADDR == 0x125
> Apr  6 22:06:29 freebsd /kernel: st0(ahc0:4:0): abort message in message buffer
> 
> previously I could still do other things on my system...not any more.

also, dont tell me you have 3940?

since, on my 4 drive 3940 system i got those, actually any attempt to _read_
the filesystems caused that. annoying.

i thought i have bad drives, or something. but swapped my 2940 into the
machine anyway. worked like an angle.

before that i had tested $$$$ cables with active terminations and stuff,
but no dice.

ok, so i thought i had a bad 3940, put it into another machine, with only
one drive, after i took the memio option off, it worked like an angle.

so, _now_ i'm clueless.

i use latest 2.1-REL

i have a hunch 3940 and 2940 arent actually "same" thing as hardware,
3940 is something more that just doubled 2940. oh yeah, memio works
with 2940, i mean, it doesnt hang there. 3940 is complitely inoperable
with it.

actually, i feel rather tempted to get those ncr cards instead of adaptec.


mickey

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:40:44 1997
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Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 21:43:31 +0200
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Subject: Re: sendmail in 2.2
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At 14:14 6-4-97 -0000, mark wrote:

>Are we ready for religious wars? I certainly think that qmail should be
>an optional MTA for freebsd (if it can't be the default).

I agree.

> Admittedly, you have to do things 'differently' with qmail, but arguably, the
>'different' way is the way it should always have been.
>
>Let the people decide! If the port already exists, why isn't it in there?
>
>-mark
>

Well.. this is where I 'disagree'.. I think it's more a matter of opinion.
Personally, I hate the way qmail is implemented. But arguably or not, it
seems only fair to have qmail in the ports collection along with the few
other MTA's available, and let ppl decide which one they like using most.

Regards,

Jeroen Hogeveen,
J.Hogeveen@twiddle.com


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 21:41:15 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704061924.MAA28524@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: How to declare device driver variables and data structures ?
To: hm@kts.org
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 12:24:50 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <m0wDonp-00002GC@ernie.kts.org> from "Hellmuth Michaelis" at Apr 6, 97 12:04:01 pm
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> Inside a device driver or a piece of kernel software, how should one decleare
> the size of variables (if one has the choice):
> 
> i.e. if i know a variable can only have values 0 ... 32, shall i make it
> an unsigned char ? Is it slower to make such variables an unsigned int
> or an unsigned short ? What are the space vs. speed considerations ?

As far as types go, "int" is faster.  Lattice and several other 68k
compilers got "int" wrong, and made it the register size instead of
the bus transfer size, and made 68k "int" slow.  The default for Aztec
and several other Macintosh and Amiga compilers (other than Lattice)
was 16 bits, the size of a datum that could be transferred in a single
bus fetch.

All that said, don't use int unless your ranges are short sized or
smaller (int is guaranteed to be as large or larger than short).

Of course, there's no guarantee that they won't implement "sort" as
less than 16 bits...


> i.e. if i know a variable can only have values 0 ... 2048, shall i make it
> an unsigned short ? Is it slower to make such variables an unsigned int ?

I would recommend that you use the defined sized types (int8_t, int16_t,
int32_t) and the unsigned sized types (u_int8_t, u_int16_t, u_int32_t)
for devices with defined size requirements.  This insures that moving
from compiler to compiler and architecture to architecture, your code
will still run (even if it isn't as effecient as it might be).

One could argue that for the kernel, sized types < sizeof(int) should
be implemented with int, for a lot of reasons, including access on
alignment boundries being guaranteed for int, but not for anything
else (aligned access requirements are a bus attribute, and int is
supposed to be sized based on the bus transfer).  For systems where
there is more strict alignment requirements, the compiler should take
care of it for you (either by generating extraction instructions, or,
preferrably for speed, promoting the size of int up).


> another i.e. for boolean variables, is it better to make them chars, shorts
> or ints ? signed or unsigned ?

Depends.  Again, "int" is easiest, and you need only one bit, so you
don't care about size, but are you sure that boolean will not have to
change to something else in a later rev of the code?

> What is the speed of unsigned variables vs. signed variables ?

Generally no difference on a two's complement machine.  Most machines
are two's complement.

The speed penalties for signed vs. unsigned variables come into play
when converting from one size of type to another.  In order for an 8 bit
minus one (0xff) to become a 16 bit minus one (0xffff), it must be
"sign extended" on conversion.

On some hardware, this is done by emitting code; on other hardware,
the processor can do it automatically as part of the access/load
cycles.

If you want it to be generally fast instead of fast on some hardware
and slow on others, use unsigned where possible... or avoid conversions
(many comparisons cause implicit sign extension to int, unless you
are very careful in your casting).


> What is with future ports to other architectures ?

Be careful with alignment and assumption of sizes of atomic types
that are not per-architecture typedef'ed to sized types.

If you use a sized type in a structure, the size will be invariant
across architectures (as long as the size is supported at all!  Beware
the 16 bit size!).

Actually, one thing I've wanted for some time now is to be able
to turn on the "unaligned access exception bit" on the Intel
platform to get the software into shape by flagging the accesses,
but not crippling the system while they are being fixed.  This would
mean trapping exception 17 (decimal) and setting bit 18 of EFlags
and bit 18 of Control Register 0 (unfortunately, it only works
against code running at priveledge level 3, so it won't help kernel
programmers).



> How does this all apply to variables being part of structures ?

For structures which overlay device data, the structure packing must
be such that the device data can overlay correctly.  In general, this
means setting the packing to 1 (using "#pragma pack(1)" in gcc) and
assuming a byte-for-byte alignment of data.  Since you still have
issues of access alignment, the actual structure may be padded seperately
from its packing to force the overall structure to an alignment boundry.

When you reference the data in the structure, you want to copy the
data if it's a data bus access using an alignment boundry granularity
for the copy (this is why the padding is there: so that the extra
"garbage" data doesn't stomp on anything).  If it's a memory bus
access (the device has mapped memory), you can just point the
structure at the data and access it normally, as long as the base
is at an alignment boundry.  This can be a problem for download code
for a smart card, since you may not have paid attention to alignment
boundries when you generated the mapped memory data on board the card,
and the system the card is plugged into now cares about that.

Technically, if you are writing Intel code, you can ignore the data
alignment; but if you do, your code will run slower and require more
bus accesses than if you had paid attention.


And that's about the end of my diatribe on alignment.  8-).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 23:23:12 1997
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From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk <dk@dog.farm.org>
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Subject: Re: kern/2923: panic: vm_fault: fault on nofault entry, addr: f6e21000
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In article <m0wDJGm-00037tC@robin.camelot.de> you wrote:
> Hi,

> You, Thomas David Rivers wrote:

> > > If you have any idea how I can make the uptime 6 hrs or higher, please
> > > tell me!
> > 
> >  Since I'm guessing this is a different problem; if you'll provide
> > the kgdb traceback and an nm of your kernel (are you running a 2.2.1
> > GENERIC kernel?) and details of your system - it's quite possible your
> > problem isn't as thorny as mine and can be much more readily repaired.

> Ok, I have DDB in the kernel and had another panic.

> I typed `trace' and saw nfs_bioread, nfs_readdir, getdirentries,
> syscall, Xsyscall.

I was getting the same panic (`fault on nofault') while trying to access
NFS-mounted filesystem (happened wish astonishing regularity, about
once a day).  I was able to reproduce it with `make -n' in /usr/src/contrib/gdb .

It looks like a NFS readdir is a trigger.

I changed NFS mount from v3 to v2 (server is NetApp F330, 4.0.1c) and it was
running happily since then.

This was back in 2.2-GAMMA days;  now, that I have non-production 2.2 machine,
I can try to reproduce it with 2.2.1.

--
You are in a twisty little passage of standards, all conflicting.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Apr  6 23:43:53 1997
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	(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA259135089; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:38:09 +1000
From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:38:09 +1000 (EST)
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I've noticed some commits recently for RELENG_2_2 and as other have
commented, this changes (totally) a set of files for 2.2.1.

Can we have some sort of policy implemented so that revisions are
`automatically' made every 2 weeks (say0 if there have been any changes,
and each week, as part of the weekly update scripts, produce a list of
diffs from the last release in one file.

something like "cvs diff -r LATEST_2_2 src > ~ftp/freebsd/patch.level

that's got to be another nicety with linux.  you can update the kernel, you
don't need to configure sup/cvsup, etc.

it begs the question: if we're changing 2.2 after 2.2-RELEASE is made,
what does 2.2-RELEASE mean if my 2.2-RELEASE is different to yours ?

Does-RELEASE have any meaning any more ?

Should all FreeBSD just be a series of SNAPSHOTs ?

darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 00:19:29 1997
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On 6 Apr 1997, mark thompson wrote:

> /etc/daily didn't run last night. Looking at the log, it appears that
> when daylight savings time started, the hour of 2-3 was skipped. Oddly,
> 2 is when daily is scheduled to run. 
> 
> On my system, i just changed that to 1am. It seems that this might be a
> good idea in general in the US.
> 
> i18n question... around the world, when DST starts, what hour gets skipped?
> When it ends, what hour gets repeated?

Look in /usr/src/share/zoneinfo for that. It depends. In Israel the change
is always at midnight (so it is 12-1 one way, and then 12-11 the other way
around).

> 
> -mark
> 
Nadav


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 00:33:51 1997
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From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
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On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote:

> it begs the question: if we're changing 2.2 after 2.2-RELEASE is made,
> what does 2.2-RELEASE mean if my 2.2-RELEASE is different to yours ?
> 
> Does-RELEASE have any meaning any more ?
> 
> Should all FreeBSD just be a series of SNAPSHOTs ?

My feeling is that a RELEASE should be immutable, but a differences 
binary package should be produced as an update pack.  This would save 
people from having to download 90 MB or more for each upgrade.  I have 
produced a 2.2->2.2.1 binary upgrade package which is 7 MB - much more 
palatable for people to download.

Danny


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 00:35:29 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704070735.RAA05938@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704070643.XAA25872@freefall.freebsd.org> from Darren Reed at "Apr 7, 97 04:38:09 pm"
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:05:19 +0930 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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Darren Reed stands accused of saying:
> 
> I've noticed some commits recently for RELENG_2_2 and as other have
> commented, this changes (totally) a set of files for 2.2.1.

No, it changes files for 2.2-stable.  2.2.1 is history; you are watching
the normal progression towards the next 2.2.x release.

> Can we have some sort of policy implemented so that revisions are
> `automatically' made every 2 weeks (say0 if there have been any changes,
> and each week, as part of the weekly update scripts, produce a list of
> diffs from the last release in one file.

You can add a few 'nice ideas' to that thought (put me on a mailing
list for these, add checksums, give us some ID numbers for these
diffs), and you come up with CTM, which has been in operation for years.

> something like "cvs diff -r LATEST_2_2 src > ~ftp/freebsd/patch.level
> 
> that's got to be another nicety with linux.  you can update the kernel, you
> don't need to configure sup/cvsup, etc.

Yeah, right.  Don't get me started there 8) Just to observe that
having a set of diffs against "something" is nothing compared to
having a local copy of the entire CVS repository for the subsystem in
question.

And configuring CVSup is _simple_ and _painless_ and it is the
greatest joy of any software I have ever met in regard to source
tracking.

If you are having problems with it, my numbers are below.  JDP is
quick and helpful with questions.  CVSup works and that's all there
really is to it.

> it begs the question: if we're changing 2.2 after 2.2-RELEASE is made,
> what does 2.2-RELEASE mean if my 2.2-RELEASE is different to yours ?

2.2-RELEASE is a constant.  You are confusing a RELEASE (a frozen
moment in time) with the dual development points (3.0-CURRENT and
2.2-STABLE).  Sites that want to run 2.2 and are interested in keeping
up with stability/security-related updates should use either CTM
or CVSup to track the RELENG_2_2 tag, which will give them the 
2.2-STABLE sources.

> Should all FreeBSD just be a series of SNAPSHOTs ?

No.  In the ideal world, people would _test_ stuff before it's marked
RELEASE.  This is currently our biggest problem, whether it's because
the users think that we should do all their testing for them (stupid,
lazy, gutless, greedy) or that we never make mistakes (complacent,
possibly stupid).

I mentioned enlightened self-interest before.  If someone needs an
explanation of this in the particular context of RELEASE testing, feel
free to ask.  Be prepared to detail at length your contributions to
the project, or I will refrain from being gentle. 8/

> darren

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 00:58:37 1997
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199704070706.JAA08177@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Re: i386/3195: ahc panic
To: lampa@fee.vutbr.cz (Petr Lampa)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:06:33 +0200 (MET DST)
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> > have you tried to update the aic7xxx.seq (microcode) to the latest version ?
> > There is one dated 4/4/97 (tonight!) I havent tried it yet.
> 
> Still the same problems, after some time error:

same here with the ahc stuff updated to 4/4/97. I am wondering, if
the driver (possibly the microcode given the symptoms) has been
broken after 2.1(.7), is there a way to backup to 2.1.7 just the
microcode so as to have a more reliable 2.2 w/ahc in the meantime.

	Luigi
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 01:10:19 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 01:10:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ian Kallen <spidaman@well.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Message Catalog System
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Whenever I open an xterm or su I get a message like
Message Catalog System: corrupt file.
as the shell is spawned....anybody know what it means and better yet, how
to get rid of it?

tia!


The next interface will not be another desktop metaphor.... Ian Kallen ....
http://www.well.com/user/spidaman/ ....the revolution will not be televised.
===== TO RECEIVE MY PGP KEY, SEND MAIL TO spidey-pgp-info@well.com =======


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 01:19:46 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:13:58 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704070735.RAA05938@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 7, 97 05:05:19 pm
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In some mail from Michael Smith, sie said:
> Darren Reed stands accused of saying:
> > I've noticed some commits recently for RELENG_2_2 and as other have
> > commented, this changes (totally) a set of files for 2.2.1.
> 
> No, it changes files for 2.2-stable.  2.2.1 is history; you are watching
> the normal progression towards the next 2.2.x release.

okay, I think I understand the labels so far:
        RELENG_2_2_1_RELEASE:1.7
        RELENG_2_2_0_RELEASE:1.7
        RELENG_2_2:1.7.0.2

and RELENG_2_2 is actually "2.2-STABLE".  Yes, previously I'd never
noticed the other RELENG_2_2_* tags and was confusing things.

> Yeah, right.  Don't get me started there 8) Just to observe that
> having a set of diffs against "something" is nothing compared to
> having a local copy of the entire CVS repository for the subsystem in
> question.

What if I don't want an entire CVS repository ?

> And configuring CVSup is _simple_ and _painless_ and it is the
> greatest joy of any software I have ever met in regard to source
> tracking.

Why do I need CVSup ?  What if I don't want to allow CVS through my
firewall (or sup for that matter) ?  (at this point, CVSup implies
maintaining a CVS tree as well as a src tree to compile from).

Sure, CVS might be superior to using diffs, BUT, big BUT here, using CVS
will require TWICE the space to store the source.

Maybe I bought FreeBSD 2.2 on CD-ROM, I want to upgrade to 2.2.1.
Alternatives currently are:
* buy the new CD when it becomes available
* download all the binaries
* download all the source
* setup cvsup

IMHP, this is not exactly "user friendly".

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 01:25:26 1997
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	(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA291951187; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:19:47 +1000
From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: danny@panda.hilink.com.au (Daniel O'Callaghan)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:19:47 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970407172653.10264J-100000@panda.hilink.com.au> from "Daniel O'Callaghan" at Apr 7, 97 05:36:00 pm
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In some mail from Daniel O'Callaghan, sie said:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote:
> 
> > it begs the question: if we're changing 2.2 after 2.2-RELEASE is made,
> > what does 2.2-RELEASE mean if my 2.2-RELEASE is different to yours ?
> > 
> > Does-RELEASE have any meaning any more ?
> > 
> > Should all FreeBSD just be a series of SNAPSHOTs ?
> 
> My feeling is that a RELEASE should be immutable, but a differences 
> binary package should be produced as an update pack.  This would save 
> people from having to download 90 MB or more for each upgrade.  I have 
> produced a 2.2->2.2.1 binary upgrade package which is 7 MB - much more 
> palatable for people to download.

Right.  IMHO this is what FreeBSD should be doing 'officially', only source
(maybe diffs) as well as binaries.

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 01:56:33 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704070856.SAA06608@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704070819.RAA06256@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Darren Reed at "Apr 7, 97 06:13:58 pm"
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 18:26:23 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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Darren Reed stands accused of saying:
> 
> > Yeah, right.  Don't get me started there 8) Just to observe that
> > having a set of diffs against "something" is nothing compared to
> > having a local copy of the entire CVS repository for the subsystem in
> > question.
> 
> What if I don't want an entire CVS repository ?

You can either track a given strain with CTM or a given tag with CVSup, or
you can just grab the parts of the tree that you are interested in with
CVSup.

> > And configuring CVSup is _simple_ and _painless_ and it is the
> > greatest joy of any software I have ever met in regard to source
> > tracking.
> 
> Why do I need CVSup ?  What if I don't want to allow CVS through my
> firewall (or sup for that matter) ?  (at this point, CVSup implies
> maintaining a CVS tree as well as a src tree to compile from).

You need CVSup because it is the closest thing there is to a reliable,
fault tolerant source distribution system.  If CVSup is happy that your
tree matches that on the server, you can be pretty darn sure it does,
unlike things like sup.  CTM is good on precision, but can be unhappy
if you break something locally.

If you are determined to hide behind a firewall, you can either use
CTM which delivers to you via mail (and if you weren't accepting that
you wouldn't be listening to me 8) or you can use CVSup and SOCKS like
I do here.

Note that CVSup does _not_ require you to have a local CVS repository, 
you can use it in checkout mode and just track a given tag, or you can
mix and match (use checkout mode for most of the system, but keep a
partial CVS repo for the kernel, eg.)

> Sure, CVS might be superior to using diffs, BUT, big BUT here, using CVS
> will require TWICE the space to store the source.

Sure, stuff takes space.  That kinda goes with any large object though,
and at about 10MB/cent at the moment, space _is_ fairly cheap.

> Maybe I bought FreeBSD 2.2 on CD-ROM, I want to upgrade to 2.2.1.
> Alternatives currently are:
> * buy the new CD when it becomes available
> * download all the binaries
> * download all the source
> * setup cvsup

* download Danny's 2.2.1 binary upgrade.
* fetch the CTM deltas from the 2.2 baseline to whatever level you want.

Note that setting CVSup up in checkout mode and having it update the 
2.2 sources to 2.2.1 is actually pretty darn painless.  Also note that
it's 2.2.1 on the CD, not 2.2.

> IMHP, this is not exactly "user friendly".

I don't actually see how things could be _more_ "user friendly" unless
you had free telephone support.  Which I have already offered.

> Darren

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 02:05:44 1997
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To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:38:09 +1000."
             <199704070643.XAA25872@freefall.freebsd.org> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 02:06:03 -0700
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>I've noticed some commits recently for RELENG_2_2 and as other have
>commented, this changes (totally) a set of files for 2.2.1.
>
>Can we have some sort of policy implemented so that revisions are
>`automatically' made every 2 weeks (say0 if there have been any changes,
>and each week, as part of the weekly update scripts, produce a list of
>diffs from the last release in one file.
>
>something like "cvs diff -r LATEST_2_2 src > ~ftp/freebsd/patch.level
>
>that's got to be another nicety with linux.  you can update the kernel, you
>don't need to configure sup/cvsup, etc.
>
>it begs the question: if we're changing 2.2 after 2.2-RELEASE is made,
>what does 2.2-RELEASE mean if my 2.2-RELEASE is different to yours ?
>
>Does-RELEASE have any meaning any more ?

   You don't understand how the tags work. The 2.2.1 release is tagged with a
non-branch tag called RELENG_2_2_1_RELEASE. This tag will never be moved and
you can't "commit" on a non-branch tag...so it will never change. If you
check out the system with that tag, you'll get what went out in the release.
The RELENG_2_2 tag is very different. It's the branch tag for the 2.2 tree.
Changes for all 2.2 releases are made to this tag. When we're ready to make
another release, we lay down another non-branch tag against that branch,
which effectively takes a snapshot of it and freezes it.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 02:27:39 1997
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 02:27:35 -0700
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I inserted the following instructions into the attach routine
of the bt848 driver. For now the placement of the instructions is not
that important.

wrmsr(0x204, 0xf0000001  );
wrmsr(0x205, 0xf8000000 | 0x800);

My graphics card's linear frame buffer is at 0xf0000000 and is 4mb big.

I noticee that with mtv the maximum frame rate that I get playing 
an mpeg file is 23.8 frames/sec with the linear frame buffer set
to WC my maximum frame rate using the same mpeg file is 30.1 8)

	Enjoy,
	Amancio

	



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 02:40:37 1997
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	(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA008765699; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:34:59 +1000
From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:34:59 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704070856.SAA06608@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 7, 97 06:26:23 pm
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In some mail from Michael Smith, sie said:
[...] 
> > Maybe I bought FreeBSD 2.2 on CD-ROM, I want to upgrade to 2.2.1.
> > Alternatives currently are:
> > * buy the new CD when it becomes available
> > * download all the binaries
> > * download all the source
> > * setup cvsup
> 
> * download Danny's 2.2.1 binary upgrade.

Right.  If a source code equivalent of this was available, it'd be perfect.

> * fetch the CTM deltas from the 2.2 baseline to whatever level you want.

I'll have to research CTM.

[...]
> Note that CVSup does _not_ require you to have a local CVS repository, 
> you can use it in checkout mode and just track a given tag, or you can
> mix and match (use checkout mode for most of the system, but keep a
> partial CVS repo for the kernel, eg.)
[...]
> Note that setting CVSup up in checkout mode and having it update the 
> 2.2 sources to 2.2.1 is actually pretty darn painless.  Also note that
> it's 2.2.1 on the CD, not 2.2.

I can see I'm going to need to checkup more about CVSup.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 02:44:53 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704070944.TAA06958@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704070940.TAA06906@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Darren Reed at "Apr 7, 97 07:34:59 pm"
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:14:39 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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Darren Reed stands accused of saying:
> In some mail from Michael Smith, sie said:
> [...] 
> > 
> > * download Danny's 2.2.1 binary upgrade.
> 
> Right.  If a source code equivalent of this was available, it'd be perfect.

See my other mail to you.  I'm inclined to agree with you, and we
should automate this while the motivation is still fresh.

> I'll have to research CTM.
[...]
> I can see I'm going to need to checkup more about CVSup.

Argh!  You leapt into this without doing your background search?  That
sounds like something _I'd_ do 8) Start with the handbook stuff on
this, and _please_ critique it back at the freebsd-doc mailing list.
Making that sort of information easily accessible and accurate is
_very_ important, and any input will surely be welcome.

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 02:50:44 1997
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	(1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA012326310; Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:45:10 +1000
From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:45:10 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704070944.TAA06958@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 7, 97 07:14:39 pm
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In some mail from Michael Smith, sie said:
> 
> Argh!  You leapt into this without doing your background search?  That
> sounds like something _I'd_ do 8) Start with the handbook stuff on
> this, and _please_ critique it back at the freebsd-doc mailing list.
> Making that sort of information easily accessible and accurate is
> _very_ important, and any input will surely be welcome.

Well, I've seen them both mentioned, but the only time I ever use PPP
is to ftp new stuff (i.e. download freebsd 2.2.1 :) or cruise the www.

so, from my perspective, if it isn't available via ftp, it doesn't exist O:)


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 03:11:32 1997
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 10:54:57 +0200
To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@dimaga.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
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At 06:13 PM 4/7/97 +1000, Darren Reed wrote:
>> And configuring CVSup is _simple_ and _painless_ and it is the
>> greatest joy of any software I have ever met in regard to source
>> tracking.
>
>Why do I need CVSup ?  What if I don't want to allow CVS through my
>firewall (or sup for that matter) ?  (at this point, CVSup implies
>maintaining a CVS tree as well as a src tree to compile from).

CVS support the use of socks5, so if you maintain the firewall yourself it
should be possible...

>Sure, CVS might be superior to using diffs, BUT, big BUT here, using CVS
>will require TWICE the space to store the source.

Eh?  If you want the entire CVS-repository, it will require 10 times the
amount.  If you use CVSup to just update the sources in place, it will
require 4 MB extra, including the CVSup executable.

>Maybe I bought FreeBSD 2.2 on CD-ROM, I want to upgrade to 2.2.1.
>Alternatives currently are:
>* buy the new CD when it becomes available
>* download all the binaries
>* download all the source
>* setup cvsup
>
>IMHP, this is not exactly "user friendly".

2.2 on CD-ROM is actually 2.2.1 - that part of the problem gone.

CVSup is simple to setup - to copy my setup, create a subdirectory
/usr/CVSup, and copy the following file in there:

----- Cut here for /usr/CVSup/supfile.cvsup ----------
ports-all release=cvs host=cvsup.no.freebsd.org base=/usr/CVSup
hostbase=/home prefix=/usr delete old use-rel-suffix tag=.

src-all release=cvs host=cvsup.no.freebsd.org base=/usr/CVSup
hostbase=/home prefix=/usr delete old use-rel-suffix tag=RELENG_2_2
----- Cut here for /usr/CVSup/supfile.cvsup ----------

Run (cd /usr/CVSup; cvsup supfile.cvsup) to update your source tree to
2.2-STABLE, and your ports tree to -current.  No big deal.


However, if you don't consider this user-friendly - what would you have us
provide?  2.2.1 isn't really interesting - if you're going to update, you
want to update to the latest point along the -stable tree.



Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ eivind@freebsd.org

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 03:24:11 1997
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970407105455.00fbc100@dimaga.com> from Eivind Eklund at "Apr 7, 97 10:54:57 am"
To: eivind@dimaga.com (Eivind Eklund)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 19:53:37 +0930 (CST)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        hackers@freebsd.org
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Eivind Eklund stands accused of saying:
> 
> >Sure, CVS might be superior to using diffs, BUT, big BUT here, using CVS
> >will require TWICE the space to store the source.
> 
> Eh?  If you want the entire CVS-repository, it will require 10 times the
> amount.

This is Just Not True.

cain# du -s /local1/ncvs /local1/playpen/2.2
300870  /local1/ncvs
173868  /local1/playpen/2.2

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 04:20:49 1997
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From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704071104.HAA02489@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!fee.vutbr.cz!lampa, ponds!labinfo.iet.unipi.it!luigi
Subject: Re: i386/3195: ahc panic
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> 
> > > have you tried to update the aic7xxx.seq (microcode) to the latest version ?
> > > There is one dated 4/4/97 (tonight!) I havent tried it yet.
> > 
> > Still the same problems, after some time error:
> 
> same here with the ahc stuff updated to 4/4/97. I am wondering, if
> the driver (possibly the microcode given the symptoms) has been
> broken after 2.1(.7), is there a way to backup to 2.1.7 just the
> microcode so as to have a more reliable 2.2 w/ahc in the meantime.
> 
> 	Luigi

 Well - unfortunately, 2.1.7 appears to have the same problems.

 I reported them originally during the post 2.1.6; but before 2.1.6.1
(at that time, called 2.1-STABLE).  Although my aha2940 would sometimes
lock up, it wasn't nearly as delicate in 2.1.6.  

 So, if you want to "back up" - that's where I suggest going back to..

	- Dave Rivers -


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 04:39:06 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:41:17 +1000 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
cc: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
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On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote:

> In some mail from Michael Smith, sie said:
> [...] 
> > > Maybe I bought FreeBSD 2.2 on CD-ROM, I want to upgrade to 2.2.1.
> > > Alternatives currently are:
> > > * buy the new CD when it becomes available
> > > * download all the binaries
> > > * download all the source
> > > * setup cvsup
> > 
> > * download Danny's 2.2.1 binary upgrade.
> 
> Right.  If a source code equivalent of this was available, it'd be perfect.

Joerg made one available, as diffs.  I was going to do a non-diff src 
version.  I still can if people want.

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 04:48:19 1997
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970407213936.10264K-100000@panda.hilink.com.au> from Daniel O'Callaghan at "Apr 7, 97 09:41:17 pm"
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        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Daniel O'Callaghan stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > Right.  If a source code equivalent of this was available, it'd be perfect.
> 
> Joerg made one available, as diffs.  I was going to do a non-diff src 
> version.  I still can if people want.

Danny, can you manage a (say) weekly production of a
most-recent-release to stable diff set and a binary upgrade kit for same?

I realise that this is a fairly big ask in terms of disk space, so if
you can't, are there any takers?  It sounds like this would be a Very
Popular thing.  It would not take a great deal of looking-after once 
it was in place, and you wouldn't have to host it, just produce it.

> Danny

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 05:50:38 1997
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To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 18:13:58 +1000."
             <199704070819.BAA00363@freefall.freebsd.org> 
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 05:50:20 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Sure, CVS might be superior to using diffs, BUT, big BUT here, using CVS
> will require TWICE the space to store the source.

Life is hard, then you die. :-)

> Maybe I bought FreeBSD 2.2 on CD-ROM, I want to upgrade to 2.2.1.
> Alternatives currently are:
> * buy the new CD when it becomes available
> * download all the binaries
> * download all the source
> * setup cvsup
> 
> IMHP, this is not exactly "user friendly".

And I've called for help in this area for years since the amount of
time it would take me to re-architect all this seems to exceed the
time I have available, and that's not changing anytime soon.
I'm still hoping. :)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 06:06:08 1997
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From: brian@utell.co.uk (Brian Somers)
Subject: Re: syslogd watching other machine(s)
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In article <5i7bo6$o1t$1@kayrad.ziplink.net>,
	mi@ALDAN.ziplink.net..remove-after-`net' (Mikhail Teterin) writes:
> Hi! I have several Unix machines (FreeBSD and Irix), which I'd like
> to set up to watch for other machine's log entries. Say, rtfm will
> log aldan's messages and aldan will log rtfm's messages.
> 
> Unfortunately, simply modifying /etc/syslogd.conf to send things to
> @another_host on both system, causes cascades of messages: rtfm sends
> the message to aldan, which bounces it back to rtfm right away.
> Then, rtfm passes it to aldan again, and so on... syslogd has to be
> restarted...
> 
> The only solution I see for this, is to run two syslogd-s on each machine.
> With different config files. One will send local messages out (run in
> "safe" mode), another one -- logging remote messages.
> 
> Can anyone think of a single process solution? Thanks!
> 
> I think, syslogd has to have an option to operate in intelligent
> mode -- recognise when the incoming message is about the localhost
> and not log it (or, at least, not propagate it).
> 
> 	-mi

The problem with the two-process thing is that currently, I expect
syslog will only write to the remote port that it listens to locally.

I think a "[port]@machine" option for the config file would solve
this - you'd still need two syslogd processes.

Does anyone on hackers (cc'd there) have any comments/observations ?

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org> <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.demon.co.uk>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour !

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 07:41:06 1997
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
Message-Id: <199704071440.HAA16248@freefall.freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 07:40:58 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704070643.XAA25872@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Darren Reed" at Apr 7, 97 04:38:09 pm
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	a frequently changing "2.2-RELEASE" is not a release
	it would become very difficult to help people with problems.
	(which version you running? 2.2-RELEASE.
	 which 2.2-RELEASE?)
	 admittedly, we could change the output of uname but trying to 
	 keep abreast of each version would be supporters nightmare.

	"kernel of the week" club?
	aka linux.

	no thanks.

	cvsup is painless, fast, and efficient.
	thank you john polstra.
jmb

Darren Reed wrote:
> 
> 
> I've noticed some commits recently for RELENG_2_2 and as other have
> commented, this changes (totally) a set of files for 2.2.1.
> 
> Can we have some sort of policy implemented so that revisions are
> `automatically' made every 2 weeks (say0 if there have been any changes,
> and each week, as part of the weekly update scripts, produce a list of
> diffs from the last release in one file.
> 
> something like "cvs diff -r LATEST_2_2 src > ~ftp/freebsd/patch.level
> 
> that's got to be another nicety with linux.  you can update the kernel, you
> don't need to configure sup/cvsup, etc.
> 
> it begs the question: if we're changing 2.2 after 2.2-RELEASE is made,
> what does 2.2-RELEASE mean if my 2.2-RELEASE is different to yours ?
> 
> Does-RELEASE have any meaning any more ?
> 
> Should all FreeBSD just be a series of SNAPSHOTs ?
> 
> darren
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 08:19:19 1997
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To: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Does anyone have an IBSC2 ls binary? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 06 Apr 1997 12:06:34 BST."
             <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970406120229.654E-100000@herring.nlsystems.com> 
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From: "Eric L. Hernes" <erich@lodgenet.com>
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Hi,

Pedro Giffuni send me a port of i386-sco-gcc, I've still got a bit
of testing to do before the commit, but it's mostly useable.  Let me
know if you're interested.  The configure script was thorough enough to
cause a panic on the test for getgrent :(  When I unloaded ibcs2,
the configure script at least finished, but the compile failed :(
I'll use an SCO box to get a binary ls, freefall:~erich/ls-ibcs2
if you want any more from fileutils let me know...

eric.

Doug Rabson writes:
>There are some serious bugs in IBSC2's implementation of getdents when
>used on non-UFS filesystems which I want to fix.  I can't do it without
>something to exercise getdents though.  I need a static linked ls binary
>for IBSC2 for this testing.  I don't care if it is SCO or just GNU ls
>(does that exist?) recompiled.
>
>If there is anyone that actually uses IBSC2 and cares whether it works on
>cd9660 and ext2fs filesystems, could they contact me.  Thanks.
>
>--
>Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
>Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891
>
>

-- 
erich@lodgenet.com
http://rrnet.com/~erich erich@rrnet.com




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 08:43:12 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 01:37:32 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704071440.HAA16248@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Apr 7, 97 07:40:58 am
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In some mail from Jonathan M. Bresler, sie said:
> 
> 	a frequently changing "2.2-RELEASE" is not a release
> 	it would become very difficult to help people with problems.
> 	(which version you running? 2.2-RELEASE.
> 	 which 2.2-RELEASE?)
> 	 admittedly, we could change the output of uname but trying to 
> 	 keep abreast of each version would be supporters nightmare.
> 
> 	"kernel of the week" club?
> 	aka linux.
> 
> 	no thanks.

Might I add, that a constantly changing 2.2-STABLE is the equivalent of
the "linux kernel club of the week".  At times, FreeBSD-current is a "kernel
of the week" club in many ways too, as is NetBSD-current.

What Linux lacks is the distinct "checkpoints" - which in FreeBSD could be
equated to 2.2.0-RELEASE, 2.2.1-RELEASE.  Well, from where I sit anyway :)

I'm sure I've offended a large number of the FreeBSD team just there :)

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 08:49:51 1997
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
Message-Id: <199704071549.IAA19311@freefall.freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704071543.IAA19008@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Darren Reed" at Apr 8, 97 01:37:32 am
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Darren Reed wrote:
> 
> In some mail from Jonathan M. Bresler, sie said:
> > 
> > 	a frequently changing "2.2-RELEASE" is not a release
> > 	it would become very difficult to help people with problems.
> > 	(which version you running? 2.2-RELEASE.
> > 	 which 2.2-RELEASE?)
> > 	 admittedly, we could change the output of uname but trying to 
> > 	 keep abreast of each version would be supporters nightmare.
> > 
> > 	"kernel of the week" club?
> > 	aka linux.
> > 
> > 	no thanks.
> 
> Might I add, that a constantly changing 2.2-STABLE is the equivalent of
> the "linux kernel club of the week".  At times, FreeBSD-current is a "kernel
> of the week" club in many ways too, as is NetBSD-current.

	absolutely!   no doubt about it.  that is what the -current label
	is supposed to imply--currently under developement.
	wanna run -current on your box?  cool, but BE CAREFUL ;)
> 
> What Linux lacks is the distinct "checkpoints" - which in FreeBSD could be
> equated to 2.2.0-RELEASE, 2.2.1-RELEASE.  Well, from where I sit anyway :)

	a release is a checkpoint, a freeze on the code base that should
	never thaw.  additional freezes will take place, but once
	labelled 2.2.0-RELEASE (or whatever) those its never chagen

	so if harry has a problem with 2.2.0-RELEASE, we can all get
	the same bits and work on it without being concerned that
	harry's 2.2.0-RELEASE bits are not the same as ours ;)
> 
> I'm sure I've offended a large number of the FreeBSD team just there :)

	nahhhhh.....we all got a thicker skin than that. ;>
jmb

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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704071551.IAA29918@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: ipfilter compilation
To: dfr@nlsystems.com (Doug Rabson)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:51:57 -0700 (MST)
Cc: proff@suburbia.net, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970407000725.654M-100000@herring.nlsystems.com> from "Doug Rabson" at Apr 7, 97 00:08:27 am
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> > The problem with this is that packages in src/sys/contrib/* may have
> > non-BSD copyrights -- but because it is under sys, you don't have any
> > choice in the matter.
> 
> I thought about this but it didn't seem to be a problem since there is a
> mix of GNU and BSD copyrights in the src/contrib tree already.  Having a
> similar mix in the src/sys/contrib tree would be OK.

Well, I suppose it would be OK.

If we never compiled or linked the code for them.

Otherwise, the resulting kernel would not be redistributable.

Contrib code is generally seperate -- it fits under the mere agregation
clause.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:12:28 1997
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To: "Eric L. Hernes" <erich@lodgenet.com>
cc: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Does anyone have an IBSC2 ls binary? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 10:18:43 CDT."
             <199704071518.KAA03946@jake.lodgenet.com> 
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"Eric L. Hernes" writes:

>The configure script was thorough enough to
>cause a panic on the test for getgrent :(  When I unloaded ibcs2,
>the configure script at least finished, but the compile failed :(
>I'll use an SCO box to get a binary ls, freefall:~erich/ls-ibcs2
>if you want any more from fileutils let me know...

Sorry, I lost a bit of context here, this configure was for
the gnu-fileutils package, not the cross compiler.  The compiler
seems ok, it just needs a real libc.

eric.
-- 
erich@lodgenet.com
http://rrnet.com/~erich erich@rrnet.com




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:16:15 1997
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To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler), hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 01:37:32 +1000."
             <199704071543.IAA19012@freefall.freebsd.org> 
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 09:16:06 -0700
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> What Linux lacks is the distinct "checkpoints" - which in FreeBSD could be
> equated to 2.2.0-RELEASE, 2.2.1-RELEASE.  Well, from where I sit anyway :)
> 
> I'm sure I've offended a large number of the FreeBSD team just there :)

Well, I'm just getting the feeling that you don't know about
ftp://releng22.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD?  I have announced it here a
couple of times, and it's mentioned in the release notes for 2.2.1.

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:19:24 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704071600.JAA29934@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:00:16 -0700 (MST)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199704070944.TAA06958@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 7, 97 07:14:39 pm
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> Darren Reed stands accused of saying:
> > In some mail from Michael Smith, sie said:
> > [...] 
> > > 
> > > * download Danny's 2.2.1 binary upgrade.
> > 
> > Right.  If a source code equivalent of this was available, it'd be perfect.
> 
> See my other mail to you.  I'm inclined to agree with you, and we
> should automate this while the motivation is still fresh.

Bletch.

You can't upgrade /etc reliably because the data and the implementation
aren't sufficiently seperate to let you safely stomp on a number of
files which need stomping in an upgrade.  It *must* be a manual
operation until that is addressed.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:22:57 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704071603.JAA29943@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: syslogd watching other machine(s)
To: brian@awfulhak.org, brian@utell.co.uk
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:03:41 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199704071306.OAA10803@utell.co.uk> from "Brian Somers" at Apr 7, 97 02:06:51 pm
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> > Hi! I have several Unix machines (FreeBSD and Irix), which I'd like
> > to set up to watch for other machine's log entries. Say, rtfm will
> > log aldan's messages and aldan will log rtfm's messages.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, simply modifying /etc/syslogd.conf to send things to
> > @another_host on both system, causes cascades of messages: rtfm sends
> > the message to aldan, which bounces it back to rtfm right away.
> > Then, rtfm passes it to aldan again, and so on... syslogd has to be
> > restarted...
> > 
> > The only solution I see for this, is to run two syslogd-s on each machine.
> > With different config files. One will send local messages out (run in
> > "safe" mode), another one -- logging remote messages.
> > 
> > Can anyone think of a single process solution? Thanks!
> > 
> > I think, syslogd has to have an option to operate in intelligent
> > mode -- recognise when the incoming message is about the localhost
> > and not log it (or, at least, not propagate it).
> 
> The problem with the two-process thing is that currently, I expect
> syslog will only write to the remote port that it listens to locally.
> 
> I think a "[port]@machine" option for the config file would solve
> this - you'd still need two syslogd processes.
> 
> Does anyone on hackers (cc'd there) have any comments/observations ?


Why are messages that come in from a non-local source being resent?

If a machine is the loghost for another machine, it should not be
permitted to delegate.

If this is implemented, messages will not multihop, and the problem
will go away without needing multiple processes or port options.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:23:05 1997
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Date: 7 Apr 97 11:23:22 -0600
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
From: "Richard Wackerbarth" <rkw@skipstone.com>
To: "Darren Reed" <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Mon, Apr 7, 1997 9:37 AM, Darren Reed <mailto:avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
wrote: 
>Might I add, that a constantly changing 2.2-STABLE is the equivalent of
>the "linux kernel club of the week".  At times, FreeBSD-current is a
"kernel
>of the week" club in many ways too, as is NetBSD-current.

FreeBSD-current is intended to be the "kernel of the day" club. If you
don't
want that, stay away from FreeBSD-current!

As for the "2.2-STABLE" label, I think that it was added prematurely.
If the label is going to be added immediately after the RELEASE, it really
carries no information and might as well be left off. Besides,
FreeBSD-2.2.1
is more in keeping with industry standards for naming than is
FreeBSD-2.2-ANYTHING.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:26:18 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:25:38 +0100 (BST)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: "Eric L. Hernes" <erich@lodgenet.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Does anyone have an IBSC2 ls binary? 
In-Reply-To: <199704071518.KAA03946@jake.lodgenet.com>
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On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Eric L. Hernes wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Pedro Giffuni send me a port of i386-sco-gcc, I've still got a bit
> of testing to do before the commit, but it's mostly useable.  Let me
> know if you're interested.  The configure script was thorough enough to
> cause a panic on the test for getgrent :(  When I unloaded ibcs2,
> the configure script at least finished, but the compile failed :(
> I'll use an SCO box to get a binary ls, freefall:~erich/ls-ibcs2
> if you want any more from fileutils let me know...

Thanks for the offer, but Robert Eckardt already sent me a copy of GNU ls
for ISC which was what I needed.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:40:00 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704071638.CAA09277@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704071600.JAA29934@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 7, 97 09:00:16 am"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:08:50 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Terry Lambert stands accused of saying:
> > > > 
> > > > * download Danny's 2.2.1 binary upgrade.
> > > 
> > > Right.  If a source code equivalent of this was available, it'd be perfect.
> > 
> > See my other mail to you.  I'm inclined to agree with you, and we
> > should automate this while the motivation is still fresh.
> 
> Bletch.
> 
> You can't upgrade /etc reliably because the data and the implementation
> aren't sufficiently seperate to let you safely stomp on a number of
> files which need stomping in an upgrade.  It *must* be a manual
> operation until that is addressed.

Crap.  Whilst you can, certainly, devise a pathological case to
justify your claims, the reality is that the sort of changes mooted
will not, on the whole, mandate /etc/ changes, and the proposed
service is worthwhile.  Also note that the 'source-diff' plan doesn't
have anything to do with /etc.  If you have a beef with Danny's work,
take it up with him.

The scheme _is_ practical.  You are being part of the problem; please
desist 8)

> 					Terry Lambert

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:46:31 1997
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To: mark thompson <thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com>
Subject: Re: crontab nit? 
Cc: hackers@freebsd.com
In-reply-to: Your message of "06 Apr 1997 13:53:47 -0000."
		<19970406135347.2749.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> 
References: <19970406135347.2749.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com>  
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 10:45:01 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <19970406135347.2749.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> mark thompson writes:
: i18n question... around the world, when DST starts, what hour gets skipped?
: When it ends, what hour gets repeated?

OpenBSD just changed the time that daily was run.  There was some talk
about doing a "real" fix for "time jumps", but I've not seen that come
accross.  The "real fix" was to run all jobs that needed to be run
when tehre is a time jump.  Not sure that is right, but that was what
was discussed.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:50:02 1997
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Message-Id: <199704071630.JAA00177@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:30:34 -0700 (MST)
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> Crap.  Whilst you can, certainly, devise a pathological case to
> justify your claims, the reality is that the sort of changes mooted
> will not, on the whole, mandate /etc/ changes, and the proposed
> service is worthwhile.  Also note that the 'source-diff' plan doesn't
> have anything to do with /etc.  If you have a beef with Danny's work,
> take it up with him.


How can this scheme cause Robert Withrow's AMD/NIS "eval" changes
to /etc/sysconfig and /etc/rc to work on my machine?

I don't think that case is pathalogical at all, and it's just the
first one off the top of my head.


I believe there were mount option changes a while back as well.

What about the mount utility changes for the 4.4BSD-Lite2 merge?


> The scheme _is_ practical.  You are being part of the problem; please
> desist 8)

The soloution is known and long-standing, it's just never been
adopted because of the /var and rc.d changes being "too SysV-like"
(ie: NIH).

(How can advocating a particular soloution be construed as "being part
 of the problem"?  It would seem more like "part of the soloution"...)


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:50:37 1997
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In message <19970406141422.2872.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> mark thompson writes:
: an optional MTA for freebsd (if it can't be the default). Admittedly,
: you have to do things 'differently' with qmail, but arguably, the
: 'different' way is the way it should always have been.

And there is also a port of exim, which does things better than
sendmail that I run locally.  Works great.  The only problem that I
have is to remember to disbale sendmail after a make world.  That's
the biggest impediment right now to these things: they all seem to
want to install a /sur/sbin/sendmail emulator so that all the programs
on the system will go through their queueing mechanism rather than
sendmails (and so you can do a chmod 0 sendmail to make it safe too
:-).

A long time ago people said they were doing work to make qmail *A* MTA
for freebsd.  what ever happened to that.  I think that it would be a
fine thing to allow people to easily change MTAs so that we can get an
isntalled base of alternative mailers so we know the problems that
using them has on a large scale.  Just like the 2.2.x release we
thought we had something stable and when it hit the field lots of nits
cropped up, so too I fear that if we make any chagnes to the base
system before at least some testing similar things might pop up.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 09:58:21 1997
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To: Ian Kallen <spidaman@well.com>
Subject: Re: Message Catalog System 
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 01:10:14 PDT."
		<Pine.GSO.3.93.970407010748.9441A-100000@well.com> 
References: <Pine.GSO.3.93.970407010748.9441A-100000@well.com>  
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 10:58:10 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <Pine.GSO.3.93.970407010748.9441A-100000@well.com> Ian
Kallen writes: 
: Whenever I open an xterm or su I get a message like
: Message Catalog System: corrupt file.
: as the shell is spawned....anybody know what it means and better yet, how
: to get rid of it?

Is this on a -current system , or on something else?  I may have
broken that with a change I made.  It works for me, but I may have
missed an edge case.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 10:00:43 1997
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704071630.JAA00177@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 7, 97 09:30:34 am"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:29:15 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Terry Lambert stands accused of saying:
> > Crap.  Whilst you can, certainly, devise a pathological case to
> > justify your claims, the reality is that the sort of changes mooted
> > will not, on the whole, mandate /etc/ changes, and the proposed
> > service is worthwhile.  Also note that the 'source-diff' plan doesn't
> > have anything to do with /etc.  If you have a beef with Danny's work,
> > take it up with him.
> 
> How can this scheme cause Robert Withrow's AMD/NIS "eval" changes
> to /etc/sysconfig and /etc/rc to work on my machine?

Let's qualify "this" here, as you are still lumping the two sets together.

If you are taking your 2.2.1 sources and patching them to -STABLE,
you upgrade /etc/ like anyone else with source does.

If you are applying a binary upgrade set, then perhaps you don't get
it.  You're not losing there, and your system won't mysteriously
explode.  The sceme isn't N-complete, but it's a shitload better
than what we have now, which is _nothing_.

> > The scheme _is_ practical.  You are being part of the problem; please
> > desist 8)
> 
> The soloution is known and long-standing, it's just never been
> adopted because of the /var and rc.d changes being "too SysV-like"
> (ie: NIH).

This has nothing particularly to do with the issue at hand, and last
time it was brought up it wasn't NIH but nobody doing it that was the
issue.

> (How can advocating a particular soloution be construed as "being part
>  of the problem"?  It would seem more like "part of the soloution"...)

You are detracting from a practically achievable solution by claiming to
advocate a solution that is not workable within the current constraints.

> 					Terry Lambert

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 10:43:39 1997
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mark thompson <thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com> writes:
>mark thompson writes:
>: an optional MTA for freebsd (if it can't be the default). Admittedly,
>: you have to do things 'differently' with qmail, but arguably, the
>: 'different' way is the way it should always have been.
>
>And there is also a port of exim, which does things better than
>sendmail that I run locally.  Works great.  The only problem that I
>have is to remember to disbale sendmail after a make world.  That's
>the biggest impediment right now to these things: they all seem to
>want to install a /sur/sbin/sendmail emulator so that all the programs
>on the system will go through their queueing mechanism rather than
>sendmails (and so you can do a chmod 0 sendmail to make it safe too
>:-).

There is one thing about exim, though:

Theres a small bug related to the exim user's group list. If you run
exim as root it doesn't matter, but that isn't as secure as I'd like.

I run exim (and it works very well, thank you - personally I vastly
prefer it to sendmail) on my freebsd machines as exim.exim, but it
doesn't lose root's group list. Small problem with differences between
SYSV (the author develops mostly on Solaris) setgroups() and BSD.

I've produced a patch (as well as bringing the FreeBSD port up to version
1.61 rather than 1.60) and told the author about the problem
Once fixed, exim is handing a reasonable amount of mail (most of the
freebsd mailing lists though mail2news) and a fair bit more with
not noticable load on the machine (A P90/40Mb).

I'm very happy with it and have been intending to write some "heres how to
replace sendmail with exim" documentation but havn't had time to finish
it yet.

>A long time ago people said they were doing work to make qmail *A* MTA

Machines at work use qmail for large scale mail relaying and delivery,
but I don't know much about it apart from the author's apparent bad
attitude ;)

Peter.

-- 
pir          pir@darkwave.org.uk    pir@pir.net     pir@shore.net


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 11:36:49 1997
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From: "M.R.Murphy" <mrm@Mole.ORG>
Message-Id: <199704071834.LAA17852@meerkat.mole.org>
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
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> > Crap.  Whilst you can, certainly, devise a pathological case to
> > justify your claims, the reality is that the sort of changes mooted
> > will not, on the whole, mandate /etc/ changes, and the proposed
> > service is worthwhile.  Also note that the 'source-diff' plan doesn't
> > have anything to do with /etc.  If you have a beef with Danny's work,
> > take it up with him.
>
>
> How can this scheme cause Robert Withrow's AMD/NIS "eval" changes
> to /etc/sysconfig and /etc/rc to work on my machine?
>
> I don't think that case is pathalogical at all, and it's just the
> first one off the top of my head.
>
>
> I believe there were mount option changes a while back as well.
>
> What about the mount utility changes for the 4.4BSD-Lite2 merge?
>
>
> > The scheme _is_ practical.  You are being part of the problem; please
> > desist 8)
>
> The soloution is known and long-standing, it's just never been
> adopted because of the /var and rc.d changes being "too SysV-like"
> (ie: NIH).
>
> (How can advocating a particular soloution be construed as "being part
>  of the problem"?  It would seem more like "part of the soloution"...)
>

Are any of you folk actually doing an upgrade from somebody else's
"here's how it ought to be" distribution of ANYTHING directly to
a machine that you care about? Seems to me it would be crazy
to do that :-)

My production machines use NIS maps for amd. I don't expect the
stock /etc/rc and /etc/sysconfig to handle it. The FreeBSD startup
of amd only provides a small subset of the startup possibilities
described in the amd documentation. This is just an example.

Another exmaple: I don't like the ownership and permissions of
directories and files in the standard distribution. I change it on
production machines. My call, and not under the jurisdiction
of the Permissions Police, eh?

I don't expect the standard FreeBSD distribution to fit my needs
out of the box, or to have Those in Power change it to fit my needs,
I am pleased when it is a reasonable base from which to change.
How would anyone alse know what wierd configuration I might want.

If I think a change is slick enough to mention, and I am free to
suggest it, that's another story. If few or none like it, that's
OK, and I can still use it, what's the problem? Is it worth arguing
about all of this?

--
Mike Murphy  mrm@Mole.ORG  +1 619 598 5874
Better is the enemy of Good

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 12:11:51 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:51:33 +0200
From: Andreas Klemm <andreas@klemm.gtn.com>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem FOUND
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On Sat, Apr 05, 1997 at 01:32:09PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > >That's odd.. I had no problems installing 2.2R or 2.2.1R over NFS with an
> > >old ISA-only 486 with 8MB of RAM. 
> > 
> > Since there seems to be widespread doubt about this conclusion,
> > if someone can get me a boot disk with some diagnostics for
> > memory usage I'd be more than happy to try to track this down (as
> > its no doubt going to bite me in the future)....theres a limited amount
> > of info that I can gather with the install disk unfortunatly.....
> 
> A good memory diagnostic is to boot the FreeBSD install; if it fails
> in 8M or more, you probably have flakey RAM.  8-).

BSDI comes with a RAM tester as add on utiliy on the BSDI CD.
YOu can dd floppy image to floppy, boot from that floppy ...

Here it didn't work ...

-- 
andreas@klemm.gtn.com         /\/\___      Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH
   Andreas Klemm          ___/\/\/         Support Unix -- andreas.klemm@wup.de
pgp p-key  http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-toplev.html  >>> powered by <<<
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Printing/aps-491.tgz  >>>    FreeBSD <<<

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 12:13:22 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:13:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ian Kallen <spidaman@well.com>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Message Catalog System 
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It started after doing some post install configuring with X, some packages
and ports back when I was on 2.2-GAMMA.  I went to 2.2.1-RELEASE on that
machine I think it was when 2.2.1 first came out but the problem
persisted even after that upgrade.  Now I think I understand that
there may have been some post-last-minute changes to 2.2.1-RELEASE (?) --
Do you think an "upgrade" to a newer 2.2.1 will make a difference (I'm
gonna configure CVSsup on one of those darn machines today!)?

Thanks

On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Warner Losh wrote:
> In message <Pine.GSO.3.93.970407010748.9441A-100000@well.com> Ian
> Kallen writes: 
> : Whenever I open an xterm or su I get a message like
> : Message Catalog System: corrupt file.
> : as the shell is spawned....anybody know what it means and better yet, how
> : to get rid of it?
> 
> Is this on a -current system , or on something else?  I may have
> broken that with a change I made.  It works for me, but I may have
> missed an edge case.
> 
> Warner
> 
> 

The next interface will not be another desktop metaphor.... Ian Kallen ....
http://www.well.com/user/spidaman/ ....the revolution will not be televised.
===== TO RECEIVE MY PGP KEY, SEND MAIL TO spidey-pgp-info@well.com =======


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 12:25:25 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:25:27 +0300 (EEST)
From: Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net>
Reply-To: stesin@gu.net
To: Satoshi Asami <asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu>, se@freebsd.org
cc: hackers@freebsd.org, scsi@freebsd.org
Subject: Intel XXpress again (was: 2 PCI busses, 2 AIC chips, 2.2.1. Howto ?
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Hi again,

sorry for "replying" to my own message, but now the possibility
of FreeBSD-2.2.1 to occupy this Big Box forever has grown to almost
100%... if only I knew the way to get FreeBSD recognize 2 PCI busses. :((

HEEEELP!!!! :)

On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Andrew Stesin wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Satoshi Asami wrote:
> 
> >  * 3. 2.2.1 has some problem with two PCI busses? (while both AICs are
> >  *    on the second bus??? or on EISA???) What I see at boot
> >  *    after the "Probing devices on the pci:0 bus" message:
> > 
> > It might be that it can't recognize the PCI-PCI bridge.  What do the
> > markings on the chip say?  I know FreeBSD can deal with DEC and IBM
> > chips.
> 
> 	Unfortunately (or vice versa? ;)  I have no access to the
> 	box' internals, I'm not authorized to open the case
> 	and look inside. But: the box is "genuine Intel",
> 	the model is Magellan W/15", base board (kinda of
> 	backplane) is XXpress 15" Rel 2, with 1 P166 CPU module.
> 
> 	I'll try to find what the bridge chip is.

	Now I can tell you what are the major (just biggest ones :)
	chips on the backplane, all have "INTEL" on them:

1.	PCIset S82374SB	(I suspice that this chip is a clue..)
2.	PCIset S82375SB	(gets recognized as 82375EB? EISA works anyway)
3.	A|M|I 9637LZR		(chip is (c)1994 Intel, no idea what's it)
4.	XPC 637909-001		(no idea)
5.	XPD 637910-001	2 parts	(no idea)

... and Adaptec:

6.	AIC-7870	2 parts	(we all know them :)

> > Boot with "-v" and send the output to se@freebsd.org.

	Just now I'm trying to boot a GENERIC with the increased size
	of vty' history buffer -- otherwise no way to catch
	all the messages esp. with "-v", PCI ones fly away,
	too many of them.  Unfortunately, building a "true"
	FreeBSD boot floppy isn't so trivial. :(  So no success yet...

> > You may want to 
> > hack /sys/pci/pcisupport.c by yourself (grep for "IBM") to see if you
> > can get it to work.

	I'm considering this, but I don't trust my own skills of
	hacking pretty unfamiliar kernel code to get production
	system running in 2-3 days...  I still hope that there already is
	a solution...


Best regards,
Andrew Stesin

nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE




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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: brian@awfulhak.org, brian@utell.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: syslogd watching other machine(s) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 09:03:41 PDT."
             <199704071603.JAA29943@phaeton.artisoft.com> 
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> 
> Why are messages that come in from a non-local source being resent?
> 
> If a machine is the loghost for another machine, it should not be
> permitted to delegate.

Maybe not, but as it does, we can't "undo" that ability.  What if
someone is using this "feature" as an ability to proxy syslog messages ?

> If this is implemented, messages will not multihop, and the problem
> will go away without needing multiple processes or port options.

I'd say it's better to add functionality rather than change it.

> 
> 					Regards,
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.demon.co.uk/>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 12:36:17 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:30:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@freefall.freebsd.org>
cc: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704071549.IAA19311@freefall.freebsd.org>
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On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:

> Darren Reed wrote:
> > 
> > In some mail from Jonathan M. Bresler, sie said:
> > > 
[SNIP]
> > > 	no thanks.
> > 
> > Might I add, that a constantly changing 2.2-STABLE is the equivalent of
> > the "linux kernel club of the week".  At times, FreeBSD-current is a "kernel
> > of the week" club in many ways too, as is NetBSD-current.
> 
> 	absolutely!   no doubt about it.  that is what the -current label
> 	is supposed to imply--currently under developement.
> 	wanna run -current on your box?  cool, but BE CAREFUL ;)
> > 

Might I add that although the -CURRENT tree is certainly "kernel of the
week", which it is intended to be, the -STABLE branch (which is what you
get when you sup RELENG_2_2) really isn't like that. It's *stable*,
meaning that changes ar introduced to make the system *stabler*. Gee,
wonder why they call it -STABLE? ;-)

Changes don't happen too often to -STABLE when compared to -CURRENT, which
is where the "kernel of the week" comparision to linux breaks. -STABLE is
a great idea - quite possibly the #1 reason why I switched to FreeBSD from
Linux a year and a half ago. 

-Mark

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mark Mayo		  				mark@quickweb.com       
 RingZero Comp.  	  		   http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark 

	 finger mark@quickweb.com for my PGP key and GCS code
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
	University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to 
	get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be 
	thought incapable.	-Sir Peter Imbert


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 12:56:25 1997
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To: Ian Kallen <spidaman@well.com>
Subject: Re: Message Catalog System 
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:13:10 PDT."
		<Pine.GSO.3.93.970407120846.28336A-100000@well.com> 
References: <Pine.GSO.3.93.970407120846.28336A-100000@well.com>  
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 13:56:09 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <Pine.GSO.3.93.970407120846.28336A-100000@well.com> Ian
Kallen writes: 
: It started after doing some post install configuring with X, some packages
: and ports back when I was on 2.2-GAMMA.  I went to 2.2.1-RELEASE on that
: machine I think it was when 2.2.1 first came out but the problem
: persisted even after that upgrade.  Now I think I understand that
: there may have been some post-last-minute changes to 2.2.1-RELEASE (?) --
: Do you think an "upgrade" to a newer 2.2.1 will make a difference (I'm
: gonna configure CVSsup on one of those darn machines today!)?

No.  I did my changes that might break this after 2.2 was released
(and maybe after the 2.2.1 tag was put down).  So those changes aren't
your problem.  What does ktrace tell you?  And do these problems
happen when you are running as root?

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 13:05:16 1997
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Limits on clist queues...
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:04:39 -0400
From: Brian McGovern <bmcgover@cisco.com>
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Does anyone know if the various line disciplines enforce upper limits
on the number of characters that can be buffered in the clist queues at 
any moment? Or is it a function of the device driver to limit itself? Or,
does it really not matter anymore, now that we have "tons" of memory to
play with?

	-Brian

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 13:21:06 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:11:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704072011.QAA03606@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers
Subject: ucbvax.Berkeley.edu (was: Re: Some insight on "dup alloc" problems.....
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Jonathan writes:
> 
> argghhhhhhhh....
> 
> please replace ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU with uunet.uu.net in your sendmail.cf
> 
> 
> To: ponds!zeta.org.au!bde@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU,
>         ponds!root.com!dg@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU,
>         ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU,
>         ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU,
>         ponds!lambert.org!terry@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
> 
> 

 It's not in *my* sendmail.cf... someone else is adding this...

 I'd *love* to track this down....

 It also appears the a culprit was possibly freefall.cdrom.com until rather
recently; there are several older sendmail.cf files there in /etc
that reference ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU.

 I've determined it's not me, and it's not dg-rtp (where my UUCP traffic
goes.)

 As I've mentioned before; everyone, please, if you stumble into a 
sendmail.cf with this in it; ask the site to correct it...

	- Dave Rivers -


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 13:26:21 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704072007.NAA01953@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: syslogd watching other machine(s)
To: brian@awfulhak.org (Brian Somers)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:07:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, brian@awfulhak.org, brian@utell.co.uk,
        freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199704071919.UAA13161@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> from "Brian Somers" at Apr 7, 97 08:19:51 pm
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> > Why are messages that come in from a non-local source being resent?
> > 
> > If a machine is the loghost for another machine, it should not be
> > permitted to delegate.
> 
> Maybe not, but as it does, we can't "undo" that ability.  What if
> someone is using this "feature" as an ability to proxy syslog messages ?

What if they do?  Then they will need 'n' daemons for 'n' machines for
your "cluster notification" scenario.

Eventually, you run out of ports.  8-|.


One quick way that will work for linear forward delegation and single
tier clustering would be to disallow repeating to the sender, but not
otherwise.  Multitier clusters and circular forward delegation would
still run into "loop with hopcoung >= 2" problems.


Maybe a better fix would be to deal with "multicast" issues using
"multicast" technology instead of kludges?


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 13:31:49 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:30:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: James FitzGibbon <james@nexis.net>
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org
Subject: Can you mount NFS w/quotas from a 2.2.x client ?
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(Apologies for posting this multiple times, but nobody responded the first
time, and my project is at a bit of standstill without confirmation of
this question)

Can you mount an NFS file system with user quotas using a 2.2.x client ?
I have been able to with a 3.0-current client, but using a similarly
configured 2.2.x client, when running

mount_nfs -o userquota server:/usr/exports/home /usr/home

I receive the response

nfs: -o userquota option not supported.

I have tried this with a newly installed 2.2.1R system, recompiled with
the GENERIC kernel, adding just the 'options QUOTA' line, without success.

If it can't be done, I really need to know.  Any help is appreciated.

--
j.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 13:36:43 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704072016.NAA01981@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: crontab nit?
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:16:20 -0700 (MST)
Cc: thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com, hackers@freebsd.com
In-Reply-To: <E0wEHXR-0000a9-00@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Apr 7, 97 10:45:01 am
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> : i18n question... around the world, when DST starts, what hour gets skipped?
> : When it ends, what hour gets repeated?
> 
> OpenBSD just changed the time that daily was run.  There was some talk
> about doing a "real" fix for "time jumps", but I've not seen that come
> accross.  The "real fix" was to run all jobs that needed to be run
> when tehre is a time jump.  Not sure that is right, but that was what
> was discussed.

It's right, but it's wrong.

It's right that you should run all of them, but if someone has
put a time-order dependent set of jobs in, and expected that it
will "take no more than an hour, so I don't have to enforce ordering
except by time in crontab", then running all of them won't result
in the expected output.

...though there's no denying that time-order dependencies handled
through cron time-ordering instead of a linear scripting smacks of
weenie-hood.


It seems that the best fix is to run all of them, and supply a
"documentation fix" for the man page...


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 13:41:10 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704072020.NAA01994@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: sendmail in 2.2
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:20:05 -0700 (MST)
Cc: thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com, proff@suburbia.net,
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In-Reply-To: <E0wEHc1-0000aO-00@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Apr 7, 97 10:49:44 am
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> And there is also a port of exim, which does things better than
> sendmail that I run locally.  Works great.  The only problem that I
> have is to remember to disbale sendmail after a make world.  That's
> the biggest impediment right now to these things: they all seem to
> want to install a /sur/sbin/sendmail emulator so that all the programs
> on the system will go through their queueing mechanism rather than
> sendmails (and so you can do a chmod 0 sendmail to make it safe too
> :-).

Yeah, this sucks.

The problem is that there is not a data specification for the default
MTA which is then used by MTA-using programs to get the right MTA,
so every weenie in the world wants to tromp /usr/sbin/sendmail.

One fix might be to give sendmail its own "weenie" script and put it
some place else (and not install the weenie scripts on "make world",
which would leave your MTA's weenie script in place of sendmails...).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 13:46:49 1997
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:26:29 -0700 (MST)
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In-Reply-To: <199704071659.CAA09397@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 8, 97 02:29:15 am
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> > How can this scheme cause Robert Withrow's AMD/NIS "eval" changes
> > to /etc/sysconfig and /etc/rc to work on my machine?
> 
> Let's qualify "this" here, as you are still lumping the two sets together.
> 
> If you are taking your 2.2.1 sources and patching them to -STABLE,
> you upgrade /etc/ like anyone else with source does.

Contestant #1:	That would be "By hand" for an hour, Bob...
Bob:		Ab-So-LUTE-Ly Right!


> If you are applying a binary upgrade set, then perhaps you don't get
> it.  You're not losing there, and your system won't mysteriously
> explode.  The sceme isn't N-complete, but it's a shitload better
> than what we have now, which is _nothing_.

What we have now is "make world"...


> > The soloution is known and long-standing, it's just never been
> > adopted because of the /var and rc.d changes being "too SysV-like"
> > (ie: NIH).
> 
> This has nothing particularly to do with the issue at hand, and last
> time it was brought up it wasn't NIH but nobody doing it that was the
> issue.

???

Is this true?  It's not how I remember it...  are you saying that if
I modified init for rc.d style operation and run states, that the
change in operation would be acceptable for integration?


> You are detracting from a practically achievable solution by claiming to
> advocate a solution that is not workable within the current constraints.

So modify the constraints.  8-).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 13:47:08 1997
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----------
> Date: Monday, April 07, 1997 13:42:52 
> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem
> To: b.horton@ukonline.co.uk
> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
> 
> 
> The original message was received at Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:42:51 +0100
> from pardalis.ukonline.co.uk [10.1.1.21]
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
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> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> /usr/web/bin/mailman: User not found
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> 
>    ----- Original message follows -----



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 13:54:23 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704072034.NAA02023@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: mrm@Mole.ORG (M.R.Murphy)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:34:15 -0700 (MST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au,
        hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704071834.LAA17852@meerkat.mole.org> from "M.R.Murphy" at Apr 7, 97 11:34:29 am
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> Are any of you folk actually doing an upgrade from somebody else's
> "here's how it ought to be" distribution of ANYTHING directly to
> a machine that you care about? Seems to me it would be crazy
> to do that :-)

I've done a number of Solaris boxes this way, with very good results.


> My production machines use NIS maps for amd. I don't expect the
> stock /etc/rc and /etc/sysconfig to handle it. The FreeBSD startup
> of amd only provides a small subset of the startup possibilities
> described in the amd documentation. This is just an example.

Well, if the amd stuff was in /etc/rc3.d/S52.amd, you could hack it
to your hearts content, and you wouldn't be in danger of it getting
overwritten unless the operation of the amd component itself changed
(and you should  expect it in that case, and still have to confirm).

Your AMD maps would live *elsewhere* and not depend on the scripts,
except that the scripts and the maps agree to a common data format...


> Another exmaple: I don't like the ownership and permissions of
> directories and files in the standard distribution. I change it on
> production machines. My call, and not under the jurisdiction
> of the Permissions Police, eh?

This should be part of the install priveledges; with the exception of
security fixes and new files (insertion of which can be handled by
context diffs and "patch"), that just means you put a "LOCAL" instead
of a "DIST" tag on local modifications.

This presumes a global database of "should have these permissions",
like SCO, Linux, Solaris, et. al., have.


> I don't expect the standard FreeBSD distribution to fit my needs
> out of the box, or to have Those in Power change it to fit my needs,
> I am pleased when it is a reasonable base from which to change.
> How would anyone alse know what wierd configuration I might want.

How about if "Those in Power" allowed you to data-drive the configuration,
and then let you specify the data -- and the *data* was not stomped on
an upgrade, but the scripts that act based on that data were?


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 14:20:51 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:55:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
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Tor Egge writes:
> >  I've narrowed the problem down to 8 lines (well, 5 if you don't
> > count comments) in aha1542.c (recall - this is 2.1.7 source); around
> > line 1670 or so, in the function aha_scsi_cmd():
> > 
> >         if (!(flags & SCSI_NOMASK)) {
> > if(debug) break_tdr4();
> >                 s = splbio();   /* stop instant timeouts */
> >                 timeout(aha_timeout, (caddr_t)ccb, (xs->timeout * hz) / 1000);
> >                 aha_startmbx(ccb->mbx);
> >                 /*      
> >                  * Usually return SUCCESSFULLY QUEUED
> >                  */
> >                 splx(s);
> >                 SC_DEBUG(xs->sc_link, SDEV_DB3, ("sent\n"));
> > if(debug) break_tdr3();
> > debug = 0;
> >                 return (SUCCESSFULLY_QUEUED);
> >         }
> > 
> > 
> >  notice the calls to "break_tdr4() and "break_tdr3()" - these are two
> > empty functions just to be place-holders for ddb break points.
> > Also, the variable "debug" is an auto that is set at the top of the
> > function when the block is the one I'm interested in:
> > 
>    ...
> 
> > 
> >  If I break at the call to break_tdr4() - the problem is masked - it
> > does *not* occur.
> > 
> >  If I break at the call to break_tdr3() - the problem is *not* masked -
> > it does occur.
> > 
> >  So - it would seem that some interrupt is coming in that causes this
> > timeout not to function properly... 
> 
> Is this on a 486 or higher with writeback cache enabled ? If that is
> the case, some flushing to ensure the mbx having the correct values
> might be needed before the command is activated. If not, you might
> end up with the adapter reusing the 'old' scsi command.
> 
> That would be consistent with breaking at break_tdr4 masking the 
> problem, while breaking at break_trd3 does not help.
> 
> Just a theory ...  If this is the case, then a wbinvd() call before the
> mbx activation (but after the command being copied) might help.
> 
> - Tor Egge
> 

 Unfortunately, this is a 386dx-33... it's also the second one of
these I've installed an aha1542 into to replicate the problem.  (That is,
I've noticed this problem on two different 386dx-33 motherboards...)
So, I wouldn't think cache problems are an issue here.  [Although,
reusing the 'old' command is certainly consistent with what I've
been seeing...]

 In that environment; do you think that call would still be helpful?
What exactly does wbinvd() do?  I haven't stumbled across it in my
2.1.7.1 readings...

	- Thanks -
	- Dave Rivers -


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 14:45:59 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: brian@awfulhak.org (Brian Somers), brian@utell.co.uk,
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Subject: Re: syslogd watching other machine(s) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 13:07:17 PDT."
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> > > Why are messages that come in from a non-local source being resent?
> > > 
> > > If a machine is the loghost for another machine, it should not be
> > > permitted to delegate.
> > 
> > Maybe not, but as it does, we can't "undo" that ability.  What if
> > someone is using this "feature" as an ability to proxy syslog messages ?
> 
> What if they do?  Then they will need 'n' daemons for 'n' machines for
> your "cluster notification" scenario.
> 
> Eventually, you run out of ports.  8-|.
> 
> 
> One quick way that will work for linear forward delegation and single
> tier clustering would be to disallow repeating to the sender, but not
> otherwise.  Multitier clusters and circular forward delegation would
> still run into "loop with hopcoung >= 2" problems.

This isn't a bad idea.  I wouldn't fret about eventually noticing
loopbacks though.

> 
> Maybe a better fix would be to deal with "multicast" issues using
> "multicast" technology instead of kludges?

I can't claim to know a great deal about multicast, so I don't see
how this is relevent.  We don't want to send stuff to more than one
machine, and AFAIK, the mbone stuff is just "smart" encapsulation.

> 
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.demon.co.uk/>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 15:48:25 1997
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Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem - More Info
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At 08:51 PM 4/7/97 +0200, you wrote:
>On Sat, Apr 05, 1997 at 01:32:09PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
>> > >That's odd.. I had no problems installing 2.2R or 2.2.1R over NFS
with an
>> > >old ISA-only 486 with 8MB of RAM. 
>> > 
>> > Since there seems to be widespread doubt about this conclusion,
>> > if someone can get me a boot disk with some diagnostics for
>> > memory usage I'd be more than happy to try to track this down (as
>> > its no doubt going to bite me in the future)....theres a limited amount
>> > of info that I can gather with the install disk unfortunatly.....

Well, the machine with 8 meg of RAM seems to work OK when I do a 
full developer load (sources), but fails on the "kernel developer"
selection. Could there be a bug there? Its a total pig when loading
the ports.....the throughput drops to like 5Kb and the disk sounds like
a choo-choo.....

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 15:52:35 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 08:55:20 +1000 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
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On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote:

> Daniel O'Callaghan stands accused of saying:
> > > 
> > > Right.  If a source code equivalent of this was available, it'd be perfect.
> > 
> > Joerg made one available, as diffs.  I was going to do a non-diff src 
> > version.  I still can if people want.
> 
> Danny, can you manage a (say) weekly production of a
> most-recent-release to stable diff set and a binary upgrade kit for same?
> 
> I realise that this is a fairly big ask in terms of disk space, so if
> you can't, are there any takers?  It sounds like this would be a Very
> Popular thing.  It would not take a great deal of looking-after once 
> it was in place, and you wouldn't have to host it, just produce it.

I have the disk space and the bandwidth.  My "To do" list is already 
overflowing.  However, it is in fact one of the things on the "To do" list.
I built the 2.2->2.2.1 binary upgrade by hand by unpacking the -RELEASE 
files and doing a diff --brief on the tree.  Tracking 2.2-STABLE probably 
means running a 2.2-STABLE machine that I am confident of saying "make 
world" on (not that there should be too much to make).

Yes, I'll do it, if someone gives me a hand to work out the best way of 
tracking differences (I, also have not learnt CTM/CVSUP)

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 15:52:39 1997
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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:52:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Leonard Chua <lenc@infinetgroup.com>
To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: CERT Advisory CA-97.09 - Vulnerability in IMAP and POP (fwd)
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Hi, I just thought some ppl (esp ISPs) might find this important. If you
already know it, sorry for the bandwidth waste :)
Cheers.

(Was wondering if any1 can test the FreeBSD popper port to see if it's
vulnerable).
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 14:47:09 -0400
From: CERT Advisory <cert-advisory@cert.org>
Reply-To: cert-advisory-request@cert.org
To: cert-advisory@cert.org
Subject: CERT Advisory CA-97.09 - Vulnerability in IMAP and POP

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

=============================================================================
CERT* Advisory CA-97.09
Original issue date: April 7, 1997
Last revised: --
Topic: Vulnerability in IMAP and POP
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The CERT Coordination Center has received reports of a vulnerability
in some versions of the Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) and
Post Office Protocol (POP) implementations (imapd, ipop2d, and
ipop3d). Information about this vulnerability has been publicly
distributed.

By exploiting this vulnerability, remote users can obtain unauthorized root
access. 

The CERT/CC team recommends installing a patch if one is available or
upgrading to IMAP4rev1. Until you can do so, we recommend disabling the IMAP
and POP services at your site.

We will update this advisory as we receive additional information.
Please check our advisory files regularly for updates that relate to
your site.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I.   Description

     The current version of Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) supports
     both online and offline operation, permitting manipulation of remote
     message folders. It provides access to multiple mailboxes (possibly on
     multiple servers), and supports nested mailboxes as well as
     resynchronization with the server. The current version also provides a
     user with the ability to create, delete, and rename mailboxes. Additional
     details concerning the functionality of IMAP can be found in RFC 2060
     (the IMAP4rev1 specification) available from

                http://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc2060.txt

     The Post Office Protocol (POP) was designed to support offline mail
     processing. That is, the client connects to the server to download mail
     that the server is holding for the client. The mail is deleted from the
     server and is handled offline (locally) on the client machine.

     In both protocols, the server must run with root privileges so it can
     access mail folders and undertake some file manipulation on behalf of the
     user logging in. After login, these privileges are discarded. However, a
     vulnerability exists in the way the login transaction is handled, and
     this can be exploited to gain privileged access on the server. By
     preparing carefully crafted text to a system running a vulnerable version
     of these servers, remote users may be able to cause a buffer overflow and
     execute arbitrary instructions with root privileges.

     Information about this vulnerability has been widely distributed.

II.  Impact

     Remote users can obtain root access on systems running a vulnerable IMAP
     or POP server. They do not need access to an account on the system to do
     this. 

III. Solution

     Install a patch from your vendor (see Section A) or upgrade to the latest
     version of IMAP (Section B).  If your POP server is based on the
     University of Washington IMAP server code, you should also upgrade to
     the latest version of IMAP. Until you can take one of these actions, you
     should disable services (Section C). In all cases, we urge you to take
     the additional precaution described in Section D.

  A. Obtain and install a patch from your vendor

     Below is a list of vendors who have provided information about this
     vulnerability. Details are in Appendix A of this advisory; we will update
     the appendix as we receive more information. If your vendor's name is not
     on this list, please contact your vendor directly.

        Berkeley Software Design, Inc. (BSDI)
        Cray Research
        Linux -  Red Hat
        Sun Microsystems, Inc.
        University of Washington

  B. Upgrade to the latest version of IMAP

     An alternative to installing vendor patches is upgrading to IMAP4rev1,
     which is available from

        ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/mail/imap.tar.Z

        MD5 (imap.tar.Z) = fb94453e8d2ada303e2db8d83d54bfb6

  C.  Disable services

      Until you can take one of the above actions, temporarily disable the POP
      and IMAP services. On many systems, you will need to edit the
      /etc/inetd.conf file. However, you should check your vendor's
      documentation because systems vary in file location and the exact
      changes required (for example, sending the inetd process a HUP signal or
      killing and restarting the daemon).  

      If you are not able to temporarily disable the POP and IMAP services,
      then you should at least limit access to the vulnerable services to
      machines in your local network. This can be done by installing the
      tcp_wrappers described in Section D, not only for logging but also for
      access control. Note that even with access control via tcp_wrappers, you
      are still vulnerable to attacks from hosts that are allowed to connect
      to the vulnerable POP or IMAP service.

 D.  Additional precaution

     Because IMAP or POP is launched out of inetd.conf, tcp_wrappers can be
     installed to log connections which can then be examined for suspicious
     activity. You may want to consider filtering connections at the firewall
     to discard unwanted/unauthorized connections.

     The tcp_wrappers tool is available in

        ftp://info.cert.org/pub/tools/tcp_wrappers/tcp_wrappers_7.5.tar.gz

        MD5 (tcp_wrappers_7.5.tar.gz) = 8c7a17a12d9be746e0488f7f6bfa4abb

     Note that this precaution does not address the vulnerability described
     in this advisory, but it is a good security practice in general.

...........................................................................

Appendix A - Vendor Information

Below is a list of the vendors who have provided information for this
advisory. We will update this appendix as we receive additional information.
If you do not see your vendor's name, the CERT/CC did not hear from that
vendor. Please contact the vendor directly.


Berkeley Software Design, Inc. (BSDI)
=====================================

  We're working on patches for both BSD/OS 2.1 and BSD/OS 3.0 for
  imap (which we include as part of pine).

Cray Research
=============

  Not vulnerable.

Linux Systems
=============

  Red Hat
  -------
  The IMAP servers included with all versions of Red Hat Linux have
  a buffer overrun which allow *remote* users to gain root access on
  systems which run them. A fix for Red Hat 4.1 is now available
  (details on it at the end of this note).

  Users of Red Hat 4.0 should apply the Red Hat 4.1 fix. Users of previous
  releases of Red Hat Linux are strongly encouraged to upgrade or simply
  not run imap. You can remove imap from any machine running with Red
  Hat Linux 2.0 or later by running the command "rpm -e imap", rendering
  them immune to this problem.

  All of the new packages are PGP signed with Red Hat's PGP key,
  and may be obtained from ftp.redhat.com:/updates/4.1. If
  you have direct Internet access, you may upgrade these packages on your
  system with the following commands:

  Intel:
  rpm -Uvh ftp://ftp.redhat.com/updates/4.1/i386/imap-4.1.BETA-3.i386.rpm

        MD5 (imap-4.1.BETA-3.i386.rpm) = 8ac64fff475ee43d409fc9776a6637a6

  Alpha:
  rpm -Uvh ftp://ftp.redhat.com/updates/4.1/alpha/imap-4.1.BETA-3.alpha.rpm

        MD5 (imap-4.1.BETA-3.alpha.rpm) = fd42ac24d7c4367ee51fd00e631cae5b

  SPARC:
  rpm -Uvh ftp://ftp.redhat.com/updates/4.1/sparc/imap-4.1.BETA-3.sparc.rpm

        MD5 (imap-4.1.BETA-3.sparc.rpm) = 751598aae3d179284b8ea4d7a9b78868


Sun Microsystems, Inc.
======================

  We are investigating the problem.

University of Washington 
========================

  This vulnerability has been detected in the University of Washington c-client
  library used in the UW IMAP and POP servers.  This vulnerability affects all
  versions of imapd prior to v10.165, all versions of ipop2d prior to 2.3(32),
  and all versions of ipop3d prior to 3.3(27).

  It is recommended that all sites using these servers upgrade to the
  latest versions, available in the UW IMAP toolkit:

        ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/mail/imap.tar.Z

        MD5 (imap.tar.Z) = fb94453e8d2ada303e2db8d83d54bfb6


  This is a source distribution which includes imapd, ipop2d, ipop3d. and
  the c-client library.  The IMAP server in this distribution conforms with
  RFC2060 (the IMAP4rev1 specification).

  Sites which are not yet prepared to upgrade from IMAP2bis to IMAP4
  service may obtain a corrected IMAP2bis server as part of the latest
  (3.96) UW Pine distribution, available at:

        ftp://ftp.cac.washington.edu/pine/pine.tar.Z

        MD5 (pine.tar.Z) = 37138f0d1ec3175cf1ffe6c062c9abbf

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CERT Coordination Center thanks the University of Washington's
Computing and Communications staff for information relating to this
advisory.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you believe that your system has been compromised, contact the CERT
Coordination Center or your representative in the Forum of Incident Response
and Security Teams (see http://www.first.org/team-info)


CERT/CC Contact Information
- ---------------------------
Email    cert@cert.org

Phone    +1 412-268-7090 (24-hour hotline)
                CERT personnel answer 8:30-5:00 p.m. EST(GMT-5) / EDT(GMT-4)
                and are on call for emergencies during other hours.

Fax      +1 412-268-6989

Postal address
         CERT Coordination Center
         Software Engineering Institute
         Carnegie Mellon University
         Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890
         USA

Using encryption
   We strongly urge you to encrypt sensitive information sent by email. We can
   support a shared DES key or PGP. Contact the CERT/CC for more information.
   Location of CERT PGP key
         ftp://info.cert.org/pub/CERT_PGP.key

Getting security information
   CERT publications and other security information are available from
        http://www.cert.org/
        ftp://info.cert.org/pub/

   CERT advisories and bulletins are also posted on the USENET newsgroup
        comp.security.announce

   To be added to our mailing list for advisories and bulletins, send
   email to
        cert-advisory-request@cert.org
   In the subject line, type
        SUBSCRIBE  your-email-address

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 1997 Carnegie Mellon University
This material may be reproduced and distributed without permission provided
it is used for noncommercial purposes and the copyright statement is
included.

* Registered in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

This file: ftp://info.cert.org/pub/cert_advisories/CA-97.09.imap_pop
           http://www.cert.org
               click on "CERT Advisories"


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Revision history


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 16:04:44 1997
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To: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Some insight on "dup alloc" problems..... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:55:31 EDT."
             <199704072055.QAA03948@lakes.water.net> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:05:03 -0700
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> In that environment; do you think that call would still be helpful?
>What exactly does wbinvd() do?  I haven't stumbled across it in my
>2.1.7.1 readings...

   It does a "write back and invalidate" which flushes the internal cache
and signals the external cache to write back it's contents to main memory.
This instruction only exists on 486 and newer CPUs, however, so it is
not relevant to your situation.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 16:20:48 1997
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 19:19:59 -0400
To: dg@root.com
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: pci_map_mem reports failure
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I've noticed that pci_map_mem() reports a failure (in the form of a 
display to the screen) if the PCI memory space is below 1 MB (dos
space), but that the function returns OK and a virtual mapping is
returned as well. There's a comment (in german) in the source, and
my German is rather weak (there seems to be a reference to PCI-
PCI bridges) .....is this a real failure, a warning, or does FreeBSD
not support PCI memory in the DOS hole (not that you'd actually
WANT to put it there...)?

Thanks,

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 16:28:04 1997
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: pci_map_mem reports failure 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 19:19:59 EDT."
             <3.0.32.19970407191956.009ab270@etinc.com> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:28:12 -0700
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
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>I've noticed that pci_map_mem() reports a failure (in the form of a 
>display to the screen) if the PCI memory space is below 1 MB (dos
>space), but that the function returns OK and a virtual mapping is
>returned as well. There's a comment (in german) in the source, and
>my German is rather weak (there seems to be a reference to PCI-
>PCI bridges) .....is this a real failure, a warning, or does FreeBSD
>not support PCI memory in the DOS hole (not that you'd actually
>WANT to put it there...)?

   The test for < 1MB should only be for the < 1MB PCI memory type, but
isn't strictly necessary...I'm not familiar with what the PCI spec has to
say about it. The function ultimately calls pmap_mapdev() which has no
trouble mapping any physical address.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 16:31:41 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: mrm@Mole.ORG (M.R.Murphy)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:24:38 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704071834.LAA17852@meerkat.mole.org> from "M.R.Murphy" at Apr 7, 97 11:34:29 am
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In some mail from M.R.Murphy, sie said:
> 
> Are any of you folk actually doing an upgrade from somebody else's
> "here's how it ought to be" distribution of ANYTHING directly to
> a machine that you care about? Seems to me it would be crazy
> to do that :-)

Well, I've done a FreeBSD 2.1.6 -> 2.2.1 upgrade recently using the
"Upgrade" option under sysinstall.

I also apply patches to Solaris2 using their tools too.

But both of these are "blow-away" installations, if need be. When the
box you care about runs sunos4, there is no motivation to upgrade :-)

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 16:35:13 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:29:20 +1000 (EST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au,
        hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704071600.JAA29934@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 7, 97 09:00:16 am
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In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
> 
> > Darren Reed stands accused of saying:
> > > In some mail from Michael Smith, sie said:
> > > [...] 
> > > > 
> > > > * download Danny's 2.2.1 binary upgrade.
> > > 
> > > Right.  If a source code equivalent of this was available, it'd be perfect.
> > 
> > See my other mail to you.  I'm inclined to agree with you, and we
> > should automate this while the motivation is still fresh.
> 
> Bletch.
> 
> You can't upgrade /etc reliably because the data and the implementation
> aren't sufficiently seperate to let you safely stomp on a number of
> files which need stomping in an upgrade.  It *must* be a manual
> operation until that is addressed.

If you were using diff files, rather than drop in replacements, then I believe
the /etc issue is handled a lot better.

Maybe you'll get .rej files for /etc stuff, but at least you'll know what
changed and what to look at.

Personally, I think replacements bins for upgrading the binary distrib is
fine and would go well with patches for the source tree.

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 16:38:48 1997
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem - More Info 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Apr 1997 18:47:22 EDT."
             <3.0.32.19970407184719.00af9490@etinc.com> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:39:03 -0700
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>At 08:51 PM 4/7/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>On Sat, Apr 05, 1997 at 01:32:09PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
>>> > >That's odd.. I had no problems installing 2.2R or 2.2.1R over NFS
>with an
>>> > >old ISA-only 486 with 8MB of RAM. 
>>> > 
>>> > Since there seems to be widespread doubt about this conclusion,
>>> > if someone can get me a boot disk with some diagnostics for
>>> > memory usage I'd be more than happy to try to track this down (as
>>> > its no doubt going to bite me in the future)....theres a limited amount
>>> > of info that I can gather with the install disk unfortunatly.....
>
>Well, the machine with 8 meg of RAM seems to work OK when I do a 
>full developer load (sources), but fails on the "kernel developer"
>selection. Could there be a bug there? Its a total pig when loading
>the ports.....the throughput drops to like 5Kb and the disk sounds like
>a choo-choo.....

   The ports tree is escentially a few thousand directories, and the blocks
for those are written out to disk syncronously (although the filesystem is
mounted async).
   I don't know why you're seeing a failure. Perhaps you could try doing a
"ps" in the "emergency holographic shell"?

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 16:41:12 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:35:21 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704071549.IAA19311@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Apr 7, 97 08:49:46 am
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sigh...ftp://releng22.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ is a full distribution,
no patches there. not quite what I was lookig for.A

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 17:27:01 1997
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: pci_map_mem reports failure 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 17:27:23 -0700
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Dennis:

>>I've noticed that pci_map_mem() reports a failure (in the form of a 
>>display to the screen) if the PCI memory space is below 1 MB (dos
>>space), but that the function returns OK and a virtual mapping is
>>returned as well. There's a comment (in german) in the source, and
>>my German is rather weak (there seems to be a reference to PCI-
>>PCI bridges) .....is this a real failure, a warning, or does FreeBSD
>>not support PCI memory in the DOS hole (not that you'd actually
>>WANT to put it there...)?

To which I said:

>   The test for < 1MB should only be for the < 1MB PCI memory type, but
>isn't strictly necessary...I'm not familiar with what the PCI spec has to
>say about it. The function ultimately calls pmap_mapdev() which has no
>trouble mapping any physical address.

   It just occured to me that you're probably using 2.1.x, so this bug fix
is probably of interest:

----------------------------
revision 1.56
date: 1996/10/14 13:04:34;  author: se;  state: Exp;  lines: +4 -2
pci_map_mem() did a too restrictive check on the mapping type:
PCI_MAP_MEMORY_TYPE_32BIT_1M should be accepted as well as
PCI_MAP_MEMORY_TYPE_32BIT (and now is).
(Problem reported by David Greenman.)
----------------------------

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 18:50:34 1997
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To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler), hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 09:35:21 +1000."
             <199704072341.QAA25940@freefall.freebsd.org> 
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 18:50:14 -0700
Message-ID: <4921.860464214@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> sigh...ftp://releng22.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ is a full distribution,
> no patches there. not quite what I was lookig for.A

Yes, well, for "patches" just see your copy of the CVS repository. :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 18:50:39 1997
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Subject: Re: kern/2923: panic: vm_fault: fault on nofault entry, addr: f6e21000
In-Reply-To: <199704041117.GAA10676@lakes.water.net> from Thomas David Rivers at "Apr 4, 97 06:17:51 am"
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 00:41:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: ponds!ponds!camelot.de!knarf, ponds!ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers,
        ponds!ponds!freebsd.org!freebsd-hackers
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Hello,

You, Thomas David Rivers wrote:

> > >  I believe it to be a timing problem in the kernel.  A heavy load just
> > > gives you a greater opportunity (as a percentage of time) to trip over
> > > the problem.  Again; this also happens on my extremely lightly loaded
> > > (i.e. only a shell) system I put together just to reproduce this problem.
> > 
> > I have the same problem here on a medium loaded newsserver (6 GB
> > newsspool). I get "panic: vm_fault: fault on nofault entry, addr:
> > f6718000" with different values for addr. I updated from 2.1.5 to
> > 2.2.1 about 48 hours before I've seen this problem the first time.
> > 
> > I really have no idea what to do now. The machine always reboots
> > some minutes after the crash. Running fsck on 10 GB disks all the
> > time is no fun... :/
> 
>  Well - this doesn't sound like exactly the same problem -  although
> I can easily imagine it's just a frustrating.
> 
> > If you have any idea how I can make the uptime 6 hrs or higher, please
> > tell me!
> 
>  Since I'm guessing this is a different problem; if you'll provide
> the kgdb traceback and an nm of your kernel (are you running a 2.2.1
> GENERIC kernel?) and details of your system - it's quite possible your
> problem isn't as thorny as mine and can be much more readily repaired.

All is set up now:

Script started on Tue Apr  8 00:27:34 1997
lancelot:/crashsave# kgdb kernel.debug.2 vmcore.2
GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it
 under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details.
GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), 
Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc...
IdlePTD 257000
current pcb at 20a92c
panic: vm_fault: fault on nofault entry, addr: %lx
#0  boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243
243					dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3();
(kgdb) where
#0  boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243
#1  0xf0116cb3 in panic (
    fmt=0xf01a60e0 "vm_fault: fault on nofault entry, addr: %lx")
    at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367
#2  0xf01a620a in vm_fault (map=0xf3ccbe80, vaddr=4134559744, 
    fault_type=1 '\001', change_wiring=0) at ../../vm/vm_fault.c:201
#3  0xf01bf8b8 in trap_pfault (frame=0xefbffc20, usermode=0)
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:642
#4  0xf01bf5a7 in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = 136960, 
      tf_esi = -160407552, tf_ebp = -272630504, tf_isp = -272630712, 
      tf_ebx = 4096, tf_edx = -160410112, tf_ecx = 1024, tf_eax = 0, 
      tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266606196, tf_cs = 8, 
      tf_eflags = 66054, tf_esp = -60814, tf_ss = -65536})
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:311
#5  0xf01be98c in ?? ()
#6  0xf01be82b in ?? ()
#7  0xf0151d2a in nfs_bioread (vp=0xf4313980, uio=0xefbfff34, ioflag=0, 
    cred=0xf4521480) at ../../nfs/nfs_bio.c:383
#8  0xf01804ae in nfs_readdir (ap=0xefbfff04) at ../../nfs/nfs_vnops.c:2027
#9  0xf01393ae in getdirentries (p=0xf4054200, uap=0xefbfff94, 
    retval=0xefbfff84) at vnode_if.h:639
#10 0xf01c00c7 in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi = 102592, 
      tf_esi = 1536, tf_ebp = -272638748, tf_isp = -272629788, 
      tf_ebx = 134778976, tf_edx = 0, tf_ecx = 139264, tf_eax = 196, 
      tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 134572833, tf_cs = 31, 
      tf_eflags = 582, tf_esp = -272638784, tf_ss = 39})
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890
#11 0x8056b21 in ?? ()
#12 0x62e8 in ?? ()
#13 0x1b3e in ?? ()
#14 0x1095 in ?? ()
(kgdb) quit
lancelot:/crashsave# exit

Script done on Tue Apr  8 00:29:55 1997

What next?

Bye,
Knarf
-- 
  Frank Bartels   |UUCP/ZModem/Fax: +49 89 8948040| "Captain, why not just
 knarf@camelot.de | http://www.camelot.de/~knarf/ | give the Borg Windows?"

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 19:21:45 1997
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To: "SysX" <SysX@worldnet.att.net>
cc: support@cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.1.7 Installation 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 06 Apr 1997 21:36:41 PDT."
             <19970407043730.AAA25405@sysx> 
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 19:21:39 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> however I was able to install the packages from "PACKAGES/ALL" directory
> because the FreeBSD doesn't recognize the DOS partition where the packages

You can't install packages via the DOS interface that way.  You will
need to copy individual packages over, naming them whatever you like
to keep them under 8.3 naming constraints, and then run pkg_add(1) on
them.

> is copied to. After boot to FreeBSD I tried to mount the DOS partition to
> manually install the packages, I issued the mount command such as: $ mount
> /dev/wd1s1 /home, the system responded with: /dev/wd1s1 on /usr/home:
> incorrect super block. --> what kind of parm is needed for DOS partition? 

"man mount"

mount -t msdos /dev/wd1s1 /usr/home

> Would you please let me know the correct command to mount:
> 2. Drive A: DOS formatted floppy (fd0 ?)

mount -t msdos /dev/fd0 /mnt

All of this is covered in the handbook, which you can read at
http://www.freebsd.org

> 3. Line printer on parallel port 1 (lpt0 ?)

You can't mount a line printer. :)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 21:16:22 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: crontab nit?
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:09:07 +1000 (EST)
Cc: thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com, hackers@freebsd.com
In-Reply-To: <E0wEHXR-0000a9-00@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Apr 7, 97 10:45:01 am
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HP-UX man page for cron:
    Notes
      On the days of daylight savings (summer) time transition (in time
      zones and countries where daylight savings time applies), cron
      schedules commands differently than normal.

      In the following description, an ambiguous time refers to an hour and
      minute that occurs twice in the same day because of a daylight savings
      time transition (usually on a day during the Autumn season).  A non-
      existent time refers to an hour and minute that does not occur because
      of a daylight savings time transition (usually on a day during the
      Spring season).  DST-shift refers to the offset that is applied to
      standard time to result in daylight savings time.  This is normally
      one hour, but can be any combination of hours and minutes up to 23
      hours and 59 minutes (see tztab(4)).

      When a command is specified to run at an ambiguous time, the command
      is executed only once at the first occurrence of the ambiguous time.

      When a command is specified to run a non-existent time, the command is
      executed after the specified time by an amount of time equal to the
      DST-shift. When such an adjustment would conflict with another time
      specified to run the command, the command is run only once rather than
      running the command twice at the same time.

      For commands that are scheduled to run during all hours by specifying
      a * in the hour field of the crontab entry, the command is scheduled
      without any adjustment.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Apr  7 22:35:43 1997
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From: Jon Moldenhauer <jpm@almond.elite.net>
Message-Id: <199704080535.WAA20719@almond.elite.net>
Subject: BIOS reports geometry wrong, help.
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:35:40 -0700 (PDT)
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A machine I have has a 'strange' problem: the BIOS is
reporting totally incorrect geometry to the bootloader
and the result is the bootloader crashes on a divide
by zero error.  This applies only to the hard disk
drives in the machine.

After tinkering with the boot block code and trying 
various things out, I narrowed down the problem to be
an invalid geometry returned from interrupt 0x13,
subfunction 0x8 in the bios.S function get_diskinfo()
(the geometry being returned is 1023 cylinders, 256
heads, 0 sectors).

If anyone else has seen this, I would be interested in
any suggestions you might have for fixing it.  It is
possible to hardwire the drive's geometry into the boot
block, but I would like to stay away from that
alternative.

Thanks,

Jonathon
jpm@elite.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 00:15:40 1997
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To: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, brian@utell.co.uk,
        freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: syslogd watching other machine(s) 
In-reply-to: <199704071919.UAA13161@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> 
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 08:20:18 +1000
From: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
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On Mon, 07 Apr 1997 20:19:51 +0100  Brian Somers wrote:

> > If a machine is the loghost for another machine, it should not be
> > permitted to delegate.
> 
> Maybe not, but as it does, we can't "undo" that ability.  What if
> someone is using this "feature" as an ability to proxy syslog messages ?

Fix it anyway.  If you are worried about breakage then make proxying a
command line option, and note that breaking loops is left to the
administrator.

Giles

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 00:49:01 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 17:52:12 +1000 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Netatalk
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Can someone please point me in the right direction of *using* netatalk, 
besides compiling a kernel.  Where are the userland management programs? 
I can't find them in ports.

Thanks,

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 01:44:08 1997
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From: John-Mark Gurney <jmg@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Netatalk
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Daniel O'Callaghan scribbled this message on Apr 8:
> 
> Can someone please point me in the right direction of *using* netatalk, 
> besides compiling a kernel.  Where are the userland management programs? 
> I can't find them in ports.

go to the netatalk's home page at http://www.umich.edu/~rsug/netatalk/..
they should be able to help... it is suppose to compile and run out of
the box on freebsd...

enjoy... ttyl..

-- 
  John-Mark
  Cu Networking                             Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954

  Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 04:50:50 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 06:38:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704081038.GAA06263@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!root.com!dg, ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers,
        ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers
Subject: Re: Some insight on "dup alloc" problems.....
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 Here's today's installment :-)

 See what you think about this.

 I've added a global variable and sprinkled checks for it in the
kernel... this is from aha1542.c:

    in_region=1;
    
            scsi_uto3b(0, ccb->link_addr);
            /*
             * Put the scsi command in the ccb and start it
             */
            if (!(flags & SCSI_ESCAPE))
                    bcopy(xs->cmd, &ccb->scsi_cmd, ccb->scsi_cmd_length);
            if (!(flags & SCSI_NOMASK)) {
    if(debug) break_tdr4();
                    s = splbio();   /* stop instant timeouts */
                    timeout(aha_timeout, (caddr_t)ccb, (xs->timeout * hz) / 1000);
                    aha_startmbx(ccb->mbx);
                    /*
                     * Usually return SUCCESSFULLY QUEUED
                     */
                    splx(s);
                    SC_DEBUG(xs->sc_link, SDEV_DB3, ("sent\n"));
    in_region=0;
    if(debug) break_tdr3();
    debug = 0;
                    return (SUCCESSFULLY_QUEUED);
            }
    in_region=0;
            aha_startmbx(ccb->mbx);

[Recall that a break at _break_tdr4 masks the problem; while one at 
_break_tdr3 does not.]
    
    
note the variable "in_region".

I added checks that looked like:

    if(in_region) { 
    printf("XXXX while in_region!!!\n");
    }

to:
 aha_free_ccb(), aha_get_ccb(), aha_done(), aha_scsi_cmd(), aha_timeout(),
 get_xs(), and free_xs().

My thought was that if; somehow, the timeout got run (aha_timeout), 
it would call scsi_done which would eventually call aha_done; mucking
around with the ccb free list and causing my problem.

But - none of this happened... (no wonderfully diagnosing printf() got
hit...)

Does anyone have any other potential functions to check into (that is,
what could be run in my small region that could cause the problem.)
[I note that aha_intr() isn't in the list above - I assumed that since
we were at splbio(); I wouldn't need to check on that.]

	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 05:18:59 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ipfilter build system complete
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:13:03 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <19970405200118.20081.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Apr 6, 97 06:01:18 am
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In some mail from proff@suburbia.net, sie said:
> 
> 
> I've finished writing the build (and module loading) system for
> ipfilter.  A few other other code changes were also necessarily.
> The patches (only about 30k) are available from GNATS as `kern/3207'.
> wollman/DG/avalon, can you review this for me?


I've added some comments at the bottom, which (I believe) reflect where
things are at currently.

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 05:29:04 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 13:29:08 +0100 (BST)
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--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:24:18 -0700
From: Servan Keondjian <servank@microsoft.com>
To: dougrab <dfr@nlsystems.com>
Subject: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd)



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Andy Hird 
> Sent:	07 April 1997 17:24
> To:	Microsoft RenderMorphics
> Subject:	FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd)
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:32:25 +0100
> From: Phil Male <phil@padd.press.net>
> To: is-eng@padd.press.net
> Subject: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft
> 
> In case you follow these things, three of the original Unix
> development
> team (Rob Kolstad (Mr Kernel), Mike Karels (Mr VI), and Kirk McKusick
> (Mr C)) have resigned from BSDI and are joining Microsoft, reporting
> directly to Bill Gates. Kolstad is to be Senior VP of R&D and
> technical
> advisor to the Board of Directors - pretty serious stuff.
> 
> His comment: 'I, long-term UNIX compatriot, have the chance to co-opt
> Microsoft from within its own ranks...I have the opportunity to make
> Windows more like a real operating system, more like UNIX'.
> 
> All three of these chaps have been active in the UNIX and Usenix
> community for some 17 years and are personally responsible for most of
> the code we know and love.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 06:00:54 1997
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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 13:33:22 +0200
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@dimaga.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
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At 07:53 PM 4/7/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote:
>Eivind Eklund stands accused of saying:
>> 
>> >Sure, CVS might be superior to using diffs, BUT, big BUT here, using CVS
>> >will require TWICE the space to store the source.
>> 
>> Eh?  If you want the entire CVS-repository, it will require 10 times the
>> amount.
>
>This is Just Not True.
>
>cain# du -s /local1/ncvs /local1/playpen/2.2
>300870  /local1/ncvs
>173868  /local1/playpen/2.2

Whoops - I was thinking of kernel sources.  My fault.



Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ eivind@freebsd.org

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 06:04:14 1997
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Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem - More Info 
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At 04:39 PM 4/7/97 -0700, David Greenman wrote:
>>At 08:51 PM 4/7/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>>On Sat, Apr 05, 1997 at 01:32:09PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
>>>> > >That's odd.. I had no problems installing 2.2R or 2.2.1R over NFS
>>with an
>>>> > >old ISA-only 486 with 8MB of RAM. 
>>>> > 
>>>> > Since there seems to be widespread doubt about this conclusion,
>>>> > if someone can get me a boot disk with some diagnostics for
>>>> > memory usage I'd be more than happy to try to track this down (as
>>>> > its no doubt going to bite me in the future)....theres a limited amount
>>>> > of info that I can gather with the install disk unfortunatly.....
>>
>>Well, the machine with 8 meg of RAM seems to work OK when I do a 
>>full developer load (sources), but fails on the "kernel developer"
>>selection. Could there be a bug there? Its a total pig when loading
>>the ports.....the throughput drops to like 5Kb and the disk sounds like
>>a choo-choo.....
>
>   The ports tree is escentially a few thousand directories, and the blocks
>for those are written out to disk syncronously (although the filesystem is
>mounted async).
>   I don't know why you're seeing a failure. Perhaps you could try doing a
>"ps" in the "emergency holographic shell"?

The system completely hangs...so theres no chance to check anything (kbd 
locks, pings to the machine fail, etc.......


Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 06:07:12 1997
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To: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 13:29:08 BST."
             <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970408132851.4123F-100000@herring.nlsystems.com> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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>> In case you follow these things, three of the original Unix
>> development
>> team (Rob Kolstad (Mr Kernel), Mike Karels (Mr VI), and Kirk McKusick
>> (Mr C)) have resigned from BSDI and are joining Microsoft, reporting
>> directly to Bill Gates. Kolstad is to be Senior VP of R&D and
>> technical
>> advisor to the Board of Directors - pretty serious stuff.

   This was of course announced originally on April 1st. The funny thing
above isn't so much that the person seems to be taking this seriously, but
rather the attributions (Rob Kolstad = Mr Kernel, Mike = Mr VI, and Kirk 
Mr C)...what a laugh. :-)

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 06:10:14 1997
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Subject: Re: pci_map_mem reports failure 
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At 05:27 PM 4/7/97 -0700, David Greenman wrote:
>Dennis:
>
>>>I've noticed that pci_map_mem() reports a failure (in the form of a 
>>>display to the screen) if the PCI memory space is below 1 MB (dos
>>>space), but that the function returns OK and a virtual mapping is
>>>returned as well. There's a comment (in german) in the source, and
>>>my German is rather weak (there seems to be a reference to PCI-
>>>PCI bridges) .....is this a real failure, a warning, or does FreeBSD
>>>not support PCI memory in the DOS hole (not that you'd actually
>>>WANT to put it there...)?
>
>To which I said:
>
>>   The test for < 1MB should only be for the < 1MB PCI memory type, but
>>isn't strictly necessary...I'm not familiar with what the PCI spec has to
>>say about it. The function ultimately calls pmap_mapdev() which has no
>>trouble mapping any physical address.

Actually I'm porting to 2.2.1......

>
>   It just occured to me that you're probably using 2.1.x, so this bug fix
>is probably of interest:
>
>----------------------------
>revision 1.56
>date: 1996/10/14 13:04:34;  author: se;  state: Exp;  lines: +4 -2
>pci_map_mem() did a too restrictive check on the mapping type:
>PCI_MAP_MEMORY_TYPE_32BIT_1M should be accepted as well as
>PCI_MAP_MEMORY_TYPE_32BIT (and now is).
>(Problem reported by David Greenman.)


The error I'm getting is on line 1064 of FreeBSD 2.2.1 pci.c file. Perhaps
one of our
german readers can translate..... :-)

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 06:17:33 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:17:32 +0100 (BST)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd) 
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On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, David Greenman wrote:

> >> In case you follow these things, three of the original Unix
> >> development
> >> team (Rob Kolstad (Mr Kernel), Mike Karels (Mr VI), and Kirk McKusick
> >> (Mr C)) have resigned from BSDI and are joining Microsoft, reporting
> >> directly to Bill Gates. Kolstad is to be Senior VP of R&D and
> >> technical
> >> advisor to the Board of Directors - pretty serious stuff.
> 
>    This was of course announced originally on April 1st. The funny thing
> above isn't so much that the person seems to be taking this seriously, but
> rather the attributions (Rob Kolstad = Mr Kernel, Mike = Mr VI, and Kirk 
> Mr C)...what a laugh. :-)

I wasn't quite sure since the original message I had was dated April 4.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 06:36:48 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 06:36:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Timmons <skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu>
To: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd)
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Heh.  This was reported in Rob Kolstad's April 1 commentary which appeared
in the USENIX Journal.

-Chris

On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Doug Rabson wrote:

> 
> 
> --
> Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
> Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:24:18 -0700
> From: Servan Keondjian <servank@microsoft.com>
> To: dougrab <dfr@nlsystems.com>
> Subject: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd)
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Andy Hird 
> > Sent:	07 April 1997 17:24
> > To:	Microsoft RenderMorphics
> > Subject:	FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd)
> > 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:32:25 +0100
> > From: Phil Male <phil@padd.press.net>
> > To: is-eng@padd.press.net
> > Subject: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft
> > 
> > In case you follow these things, three of the original Unix
> > development
> > team (Rob Kolstad (Mr Kernel), Mike Karels (Mr VI), and Kirk McKusick
> > (Mr C)) have resigned from BSDI and are joining Microsoft, reporting
> > directly to Bill Gates. Kolstad is to be Senior VP of R&D and
> > technical
> > advisor to the Board of Directors - pretty serious stuff.
> > 
> > His comment: 'I, long-term UNIX compatriot, have the chance to co-opt
> > Microsoft from within its own ranks...I have the opportunity to make
> > Windows more like a real operating system, more like UNIX'.
> > 
> > All three of these chaps have been active in the UNIX and Usenix
> > community for some 17 years and are personally responsible for most of
> > the code we know and love.
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 06:56:34 1997
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To: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
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Subject: Re: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 14:17:32 BST."
             <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970408141607.4123I-100000@herring.nlsystems.com> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Reply-To: dg@root.com
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>On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, David Greenman wrote:
>
>> >> In case you follow these things, three of the original Unix
>> >> development
>> >> team (Rob Kolstad (Mr Kernel), Mike Karels (Mr VI), and Kirk McKusick
>> >> (Mr C)) have resigned from BSDI and are joining Microsoft, reporting
>> >> directly to Bill Gates. Kolstad is to be Senior VP of R&D and
>> >> technical
>> >> advisor to the Board of Directors - pretty serious stuff.
>> 
>>    This was of course announced originally on April 1st. The funny thing
>> above isn't so much that the person seems to be taking this seriously, but
>> rather the attributions (Rob Kolstad = Mr Kernel, Mike = Mr VI, and Kirk 
>> Mr C)...what a laugh. :-)
>
>I wasn't quite sure since the original message I had was dated April 4.

   ...Jordan just jogged my memory about this: It originally appeared in
the ;login magazine along with a bunch of other April 1st type "news"
stories. It was written seriously enough and mixed in with other non-fool's
stories as to make it difficult for the lay person to know what was truth and
what was not (although this particular story was so outrageous that I don't
see how anyone could take it seriously).

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 07:39:33 1997
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From: "Kenneth P. Stox" <ken@stox.sa.enteract.com>
Reply-To: stox@enteract.com
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This was an April Fools Joke!!

I guess someone fell for it. :-)

--
Ken Stox					stox@enteract.com

On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Doug Rabson wrote:

> 
> 
> --
> Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
> Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 05:24:18 -0700
> From: Servan Keondjian <servank@microsoft.com>
> To: dougrab <dfr@nlsystems.com>
> Subject: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd)
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Andy Hird 
> > Sent:	07 April 1997 17:24
> > To:	Microsoft RenderMorphics
> > Subject:	FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd)
> > 
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:32:25 +0100
> > From: Phil Male <phil@padd.press.net>
> > To: is-eng@padd.press.net
> > Subject: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft
> > 
> > In case you follow these things, three of the original Unix
> > development
> > team (Rob Kolstad (Mr Kernel), Mike Karels (Mr VI), and Kirk McKusick
> > (Mr C)) have resigned from BSDI and are joining Microsoft, reporting
> > directly to Bill Gates. Kolstad is to be Senior VP of R&D and
> > technical
> > advisor to the Board of Directors - pretty serious stuff.
> > 
> > His comment: 'I, long-term UNIX compatriot, have the chance to co-opt
> > Microsoft from within its own ranks...I have the opportunity to make
> > Windows more like a real operating system, more like UNIX'.
> > 
> > All three of these chaps have been active in the UNIX and Usenix
> > community for some 17 years and are personally responsible for most of
> > the code we know and love.
> 
> 
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 08:01:44 1997
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At 09:39 AM 4/08/97 -0500, Kenneth P. Stox wrote:
>
>This was an April Fools Joke!!
>
>I guess someone fell for it. :-)

Remember, a lot of people fell for the "Microsoft to buy Catholic church"
joke that went around a while back, and that was even more outrageous.  I
must say however that when I first read it I thought it could be
serious....It is the Microsoft way afer all... "Cant beat it, buy it"  :-)


	---Mike
**********************************************************************
Mike Tancsa  (mike@sentex.net)           * To do is to be  -- Nietzsche
Sentex Communications Corp,              * To be is to do  -- Sartre 
Cambridge, Ontario                       * Do be do be do  -- Sinatra
(http://www.sentex.net/~mdtancsa)        *

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 08:06:30 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 10:06:11 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
cc: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Netatalk
In-Reply-To: <19970408014348.04642@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
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On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, John-Mark Gurney wrote:

> Daniel O'Callaghan scribbled this message on Apr 8:
> > 
> > Can someone please point me in the right direction of *using* netatalk, 
> > besides compiling a kernel.  Where are the userland management programs? 
> > I can't find them in ports.
> 
> go to the netatalk's home page at http://www.umich.edu/~rsug/netatalk/..
> they should be able to help... it is suppose to compile and run out of
> the box on freebsd...

Note: it is the 1.4 beta 2 version that works (quite nicely) with
FreeBSD.

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 08:06:57 1997
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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 11:05:34 -0400
To: dg@root.com, Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd) 
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At 06:56 AM 4/8/97 -0700, David Greenman wrote:
>>On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, David Greenman wrote:
>>
>>> >> In case you follow these things, three of the original Unix
>>> >> development
>>> >> team (Rob Kolstad (Mr Kernel), Mike Karels (Mr VI), and Kirk McKusick
>>> >> (Mr C)) have resigned from BSDI and are joining Microsoft, reporting
>>> >> directly to Bill Gates. Kolstad is to be Senior VP of R&D and
>>> >> technical
>>> >> advisor to the Board of Directors - pretty serious stuff.
>>> 
>>>    This was of course announced originally on April 1st. The funny thing
>>> above isn't so much that the person seems to be taking this seriously, but
>>> rather the attributions (Rob Kolstad = Mr Kernel, Mike = Mr VI, and Kirk 
>>> Mr C)...what a laugh. :-)
>>
>>I wasn't quite sure since the original message I had was dated April 4.
>
>   ...Jordan just jogged my memory about this: It originally appeared in
>the ;login magazine along with a bunch of other April 1st type "news"
>stories. It was written seriously enough and mixed in with other non-fool's
>stories as to make it difficult for the lay person to know what was truth and
>what was not (although this particular story was so outrageous that I don't
>see how anyone could take it seriously).

its not THAT outrageous...if you think those guys can't be bought (they
already
have been, in fact), then you're head is in the sand....stranger things have
happened.....

db

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 08:14:41 1997
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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 11:13:14 -0400
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Subject: pci probes with multiple "units"
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What is the preferred method (assuming that there is more than one
way to do it) to handle multiple multiport devices in Freebsd. It seems 
(I could be wrong) that the *first* adapter always probes/attaches as unit
0 (even if the declaration is...

device de4

for example), the *second* as 1, etc.  If you have 2 boards with 4 ports 
each, logically you would like to declare:

device de0 
device de4

and have the device names correspond to the actual port device
numbers, but I suspect that this won't work (I  havent actually tried
it yet).

It can certainly be done manually by calling if_attach with the correct
number, but is there a better, physical way to do it so that the probes
are done with the root/first port on the board?

thanks,

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 08:46:53 1997
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Subject: Re: pci_map_mem reports failure 
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Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 08:46:32 -0700
From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
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In article <3.0.32.19970408090836.00694a80@etinc.com>,
dennis  <dennis@etinc.com> wrote:
> The error I'm getting is on line 1064 of FreeBSD 2.2.1 pci.c file. Perhaps
> one of our
> german readers can translate..... :-)

Roughly:

/*
 * XXX - Is this code correct if a PCI-PCI bridge is used for the PCI
 * slots, but the on-board devices hang directly off the CPU-PCI bridge?
 * (cf. the Compaq Prolinea problem.)
 */

Not that I know what it means even in English ... :-)
--
   John Polstra                                       jdp@polstra.com
   John D. Polstra & Co., Inc.                Seattle, Washington USA
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."                 -- John Barth

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 09:15:01 1997
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 11:05:34 -0400."
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> At 06:56 AM 4/8/97 -0700, David Greenman wrote:
> >>On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, David Greenman wrote:
> >>
> >>> >> In case you follow these things, three of the original Unix
> >>> >> development
> >>> >> team (Rob Kolstad (Mr Kernel), Mike Karels (Mr VI), and Kirk McKusick
> >>> >> (Mr C)) have resigned from BSDI and are joining Microsoft, reporting
> >>> >> directly to Bill Gates. Kolstad is to be Senior VP of R&D and
> >>> >> technical
> >>> >> advisor to the Board of Directors - pretty serious stuff.
> >>> 
> >>>    This was of course announced originally on April 1st. The funny thing
> >>> above isn't so much that the person seems to be taking this seriously, but
> >>> rather the attributions (Rob Kolstad = Mr Kernel, Mike = Mr VI, and Kirk 
> >>> Mr C)...what a laugh. :-)
> >>
> >>I wasn't quite sure since the original message I had was dated April 4.
> >
> >   ...Jordan just jogged my memory about this: It originally appeared in
> >the ;login magazine along with a bunch of other April 1st type "news"
> >stories. It was written seriously enough and mixed in with other non-fool's
> >stories as to make it difficult for the lay person to know what was truth and
> >what was not (although this particular story was so outrageous that I don't
> >see how anyone could take it seriously).
> 
> its not THAT outrageous...if you think those guys can't be bought (they
> already
> have been, in fact), then you're head is in the sand....stranger things have
> happened.....
> 
> db
> 

Yup.  They bought Gordon Bell and C.J. Date in the last year or so.

Russell



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 09:44:47 1997
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Subject: Re: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 11:05:34 EDT."
             <3.0.32.19970408110531.00b24c50@etinc.com> 
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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 09:44:18 -0700
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> have been, in fact), then you're head is in the sand....stranger things have
> happened.....
Microsoft buys WebTV!!

	Amancio




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 10:24:56 1997
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Subject: Re: FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd) 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 08:05:34 PDT."
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 09:40:37 PDT
From: "Marty Leisner" <leisner@sdsp.mc.xerox.com>
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I did a double take when I read ;login...

Then I relealized it was early April...

I thought it was clever...

-- 
marty
leisner@sdsp.mc.xerox.com  
The Feynman problem solving Algorithm
        1) Write down the problem
        2) Think real hard
        3) Write down the answer
                Murray Gel-mann in the NY Times





From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 13:40:06 1997
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From: Rob Kolstad <kolstad@BSDI.COM>
Message-Id: <199704082039.OAA04766@ace.BSDI.COM>
To: dfr@nlsystems.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, mishania@demos.su,
        phil@padd.press.net, sanemail@sno.pp.se, servank@microsoft.com
Subject: April Fools
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This mail is being forwarded around:


	> -----Original Message-----
	> From:	Andy Hird 
	> Sent:	07 April 1997 17:24
	> To:	Microsoft RenderMorphics
	> Subject:	FW: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft (fwd)
	> 
	> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
	> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:32:25 +0100
	> From: Phil Male <phil@padd.press.net>
	> To: is-eng@padd.press.net
	> Subject: Unix Gurus shift to Microsoft
	> 
	> In case you follow these things, three of the original Unix
	> development
	> team (Rob Kolstad (Mr Kernel), Mike Karels (Mr VI), and Kirk McKusick
	> (Mr C)) have resigned from BSDI and are joining Microsoft, reporting
	> directly to Bill Gates. Kolstad is to be Senior VP of R&D and
	> technical
	> advisor to the Board of Directors - pretty serious stuff.
	> 
	> His comment: 'I, long-term UNIX compatriot, have the chance to co-opt
	> Microsoft from within its own ranks...I have the opportunity to make
	> Windows more like a real operating system, more like UNIX'.
	> 
	> All three of these chaps have been active in the UNIX and Usenix
	> community for some 17 years and are personally responsible for most of
	> the code we know and love.


It was an April Fools joke.  It's not true.

RK

   ====================================================================
         /\      Rob Kolstad           Berkeley Software Design, Inc. 
      /\/  \     kolstad@bsdi.com      5575 Tech Center Dr. #110
     /  \   \    719-593-9445          Colorado Springs, CO  80919
   ====================================================================


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 15:00:36 1997
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To: stesin@gu.net
CC: se@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, scsi@freebsd.org, davidg@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970407202815.18004c-100000@trifork.gu.net> (message from Andrew Stesin on Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:25:27 +0300 (EEST))
Subject: Re: Intel XXpress again (was: 2 PCI busses, 2 AIC chips, 2.2.1. Howto ?
From: asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami)
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 * Hi again,
 * 
 * sorry for "replying" to my own message, but now the possibility
 * of FreeBSD-2.2.1 to occupy this Big Box forever has grown to almost
 * 100%... if only I knew the way to get FreeBSD recognize 2 PCI busses. :((
 * 
 * HEEEELP!!!! :)

I wonder if DavidG on the lists.

 * 	Now I can tell you what are the major (just biggest ones :)
 * 	chips on the backplane, all have "INTEL" on them:
 * 
 * 1.	PCIset S82374SB	(I suspice that this chip is a clue..)
 * 2.	PCIset S82375SB	(gets recognized as 82375EB? EISA works anyway)

I think the "823*B" chips are PCI-<something> bridges.  The one I have 
says:

chip1 <Intel 82371SB PCI-ISA bridge> rev 1 on pci0:1:0
chip2 <Intel 82371SB IDE interface> rev 0 on pci0:1:1

(It is only one chip.)

 * 3.	A|M|I 9637LZR		(chip is (c)1994 Intel, no idea what's it)
 * 4.	XPC 637909-001		(no idea)
 * 5.	XPD 637910-001	2 parts	(no idea)

Justin suggested the motherboard may have two host-PCI bridges, so
maybe these are those.

 * 	Just now I'm trying to boot a GENERIC with the increased size
 * 	of vty' history buffer -- otherwise no way to catch
 * 	all the messages esp. with "-v", PCI ones fly away,
 * 	too many of them.  Unfortunately, building a "true"
 * 	FreeBSD boot floppy isn't so trivial. :(  So no success yet...

Can you get it to a point that it can run "dmesg"?

 * 	I'm considering this, but I don't trust my own skills of
 * 	hacking pretty unfamiliar kernel code to get production
 * 	system running in 2-3 days...  I still hope that there already is
 * 	a solution...

Well, let's see if David can help you.

Satoshi

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 15:35:35 1997
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I've addressed what I consider all outstanding issues with ipfilter
insofar as one can without stepping on too many toes. This is
complete. I haven't tested it under 2.2, but any changes should
be very minimal. /usr/src/contrib/ipfilter can be, and
should be zorched after this shar unpacks. Review is appreciated,
but anything but bug-fixes will fall on deaf ears.

The code is available as:

	ftp.freebsd.org/FreeBSD/incoming/ipfilter-proff.shar.gz (100k)

and from GNATS as `kern/3234'.

Unpack the three new source trees and two patch files:

	root@current# cd /usr
	root@current# unshar </tmp/ipfilter-proff.shar

Patch the sys tree - quite tiny really.

	root@current# patch <src/sys-ipfilter-proff.diff

If you have have the /usr/src/etc tree:

	root@current# patch <src/etc-ipfilter-proff.diff
	root@current# cp src/etc/etc.i386/MAKEDEV /dev
	root@current# cd /dev
	root@current# ./MAKEDEV ipl ipnat ipstate

else:

	root@current# cd /dev
	root@current# mknod ipl c 79 0
	root@current# mknod ipnat c 79 1
	root@current# mknod ipstate c 79 2

If you use devfs for /dev you can ignore the device creation above -
the new module loading code will do it for you.

Compile and install the user-land code:

	root@current# cd /usr/src/sbin/ipf
	root@current# make && make install

Compile and install the kernel module:

	root@current# cd /usr/src/lkm/if_ipf
	root@current# make && make install

Add the following to your kernel configuration:

	# new IPFILTER firewall
	# you need to have the src/contrib-sys tree installed to compile
	# kernel support for the in-kernel version
	#options	IPFILTER		#in-kernel version
	options		IPFILTER_LKM		#module version
	options		IPFITLER_LOG		#support logging (in-kernel)

Un-comment:

	#options IPFITLER

and comment out:

	options IPFITLER_LKM

If you want the in-kernel version instead (it has no advantage).

	Re-config(8), recompile, install and boot the new kernel.

If you are running the loadable-module version, load the module:

	root@current# modload /lkm/if_ipf_mod.o

see if it worked:

	root@current# modstat

Create some test firewall rules:

	root@current# mkfilters | tee /tmp/basic-filters

Load them in:

	root@current# ipf -f /tmp/basic-filters

Re-examine:

	root@current# ipfstat -i -o

Write some better ones:

	root@current# man 5 ipf

# This is a shell archive.  Save it in a file, remove anything before
# this line, and then unpack it by entering "sh file".  Note, it may
# create directories; files and directories will be owned by you and
# have default permissions.
#
# This archive contains:
#
#	src/sys-ipfilter-proff.diff
#	src/etc-ipfilter-proff.diff
#	src/lkm/if_ipf
#	src/lkm/if_ipf/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipfstat
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipfstat/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipftest
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipftest/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/Makefile.inc
#	src/sbin/ipf/mkfilters
#	src/sbin/ipf/mkfilters/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipf
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipf/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipmon
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipmon/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipnat
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipnat/Makefile
#	src/contrib-sys
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/snoop.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/man.sed
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipf.1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipf.4
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipf.5
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipfstat.8
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipftest.1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipl.4
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipmon.8
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipnat.1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipnat.4
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipnat.5
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/ipfilter.5
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/Makefile
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/man/mkfilters.1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/input.sed
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/10
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/11
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/12
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/13
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/2
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/3
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#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/5
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/6
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/7
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/8
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/9
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/input/1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/regress.sed
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/10
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/11
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/12
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/13
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/2
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/3
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#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/5
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/6
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/7
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/8
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/9
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i10
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i11
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i2
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i3
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i4
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i5
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i6
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i7
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i8
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/i9
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/regress/1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/expected.sed
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/10
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/11
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/12
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/2
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/3
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/4
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/5
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/6
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/7
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/8
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/9
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i10
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i11
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i2
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i3
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i4
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i5
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i6
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i7
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i8
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/i9
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/expected/1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/hextest
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/itest
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/.cvsignore
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/test.sed
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/Makefile
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/test/dotest
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/rules.sed
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.10
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.11
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.12
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.13
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.2
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.3
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.4
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.5
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.6
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.7
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.8
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.9
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.sr
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/nat.eg
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/server
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/tcpstate
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/rules/example.1
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/LICENCE
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/README
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/fil.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/fils.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/inet_addr.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_compat.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_fil.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_fil.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_frag.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_frag.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_nat.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_nat.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_state.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_state.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipf.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipf.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipft_ef.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipft_hx.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipft_pc.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipft_sn.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipft_td.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipft_tx.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipl.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipl_ldev.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipmon.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipnat.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipt.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipt.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/kmem.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/kmem.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/misc.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/mkfilters
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/etc
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/etc/etc.sed
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/opt.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/parse.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/pcap.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/relay.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/todo
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/NAT.FreeBSD
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/mlf_ipl.c
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ipfconf.h
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/BNF
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/HISTORY
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/IMPORTANT
[...]

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 16:30:07 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ipfilter-proff.shar.gz
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:24:07 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <19970408223424.25890.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Apr 9, 97 08:34:23 am
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There was one other issue I'd like to see resolved and that was how
IP Filter should be included within FreeBSD if the current layout isn't
satisfactory.

I recall the last email I read on the subject was from Julian, but in
this, i really need a decision made by someone who is authorised to make
that sort of decision before any changes to the current layout are made.

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 17:04:40 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704090003.JAA21528@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: How to get the latest de driver under FreeBSD...
In-Reply-To: <199704041613.QAA28898@whydos.lkg.dec.com> from Matt Thomas at "Apr 4, 97 04:13:43 pm"
To: matt@lkg.dec.com (Matt Thomas)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:33:41 +0930 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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Matt Thomas stands accused of saying:
> 
> I just wrote a web page on how to upgrade/update your FreeBSD so
> it can run the latest de driver (which is in NetBSD).
> 
> It's at http://www.3am-software.com/ifmedia.html .  Note that the NetBSD
> is in much better shape than the current FreeBSD driver.
> 
> (www.3am-software.com is now 206.107.21.156 if you have problems accessing
> that page)

Is anyone actively looking at committing this?  If not, I'll take it - we
certainly need it.

Thanks Matt!

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 17:06:10 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704090005.JAA21553@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970407133321.00c0d4e0@dimaga.com> from Eivind Eklund at "Apr 7, 97 01:33:22 pm"
To: eivind@dimaga.com (Eivind Eklund)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:35:47 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au,
        hackers@freebsd.org
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Eivind Eklund stands accused of saying:
> >> 
> >> Eh?  If you want the entire CVS-repository, it will require 10 times the
> >> amount.
> >
> >This is Just Not True.
> >
> >cain# du -s /local1/ncvs /local1/playpen/2.2
> >300870  /local1/ncvs
> >173868  /local1/playpen/2.2
> 
> Whoops - I was thinking of kernel sources.  My fault.

This is Still Just Not True :

cain:~>du -s /local1/ncvs/src/sys /sys
45039   /local1/ncvs/src/sys
17397   /sys

> Eivind Eklund perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ eivind@freebsd.org

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 17:23:34 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704090022.JAA21738@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Intel XXpress again (was: 2 PCI busses, 2 AIC chips, 2.2.1. Howto ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970407202815.18004c-100000@trifork.gu.net> from Andrew Stesin at "Apr 7, 97 10:25:27 pm"
To: stesin@gu.net
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:52:57 +0930 (CST)
Cc: asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu, se@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org,
        scsi@freebsd.org
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Andrew Stesin stands accused of saying:
> 
> sorry for "replying" to my own message, but now the possibility
> of FreeBSD-2.2.1 to occupy this Big Box forever has grown to almost
> 100%... if only I knew the way to get FreeBSD recognize 2 PCI busses. :((

It should anyway - you want Stefan Esser's phone number though 8)

> 	Now I can tell you what are the major (just biggest ones :)
> 	chips on the backplane, all have "INTEL" on them:
> 
> 1.	PCIset S82374SB	(I suspice that this chip is a clue..)

That's almost certainly the PCI interface and PCI/ISA bridge.

> 2.	PCIset S82375SB	(gets recognized as 82375EB? EISA works anyway)

Yup, EISA bridge.

> 3.	A|M|I 9637LZR		(chip is (c)1994 Intel, no idea what's it)

That's probably the BIOS with an American Megatrends logo on it 8)

> 4.	XPC 637909-001		(no idea)
> 5.	XPD 637910-001	2 parts	(no idea)

Um, they sound a lot like FPGA or some other gate array parts.  Do they
have logos on them?

> 	Just now I'm trying to boot a GENERIC with the increased size
> 	of vty' history buffer -- otherwise no way to catch
> 	all the messages esp. with "-v", PCI ones fly away,
> 	too many of them.  Unfortunately, building a "true"
> 	FreeBSD boot floppy isn't so trivial. :(  So no success yet...

Stick a serial cable on com1 leading to another machine, and use the
'-hv' boot flags to get it to use the serial console.

> 	I'm considering this, but I don't trust my own skills of
> 	hacking pretty unfamiliar kernel code to get production
> 	system running in 2-3 days...  I still hope that there already is
> 	a solution...

2-3 days on a new platform?  Is this your timeframe or your customer's?
Whoever, they gotta be _nuts_!

> Andrew Stesin

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 17:56:02 1997
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X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: availability of 100Mb ethernet drivers
Reply-To: hutton@ISI.EDU
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Date: Tue, 08 Apr 97 17:55:05 PDT
From: Anne Hutton <hutton@ISI.EDU>
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Hi,

which 100Mb ethernet drivers (apart from the de driver) are available or 
planned and for which versions of FreeBSD?

Also has anyone any information on whether their counterparts in NetBSD are in 
better or worse shape...

thanks,

Anne Hutton



USC/ISI 
4676 Admiralty Way,
Marina Del Rey,
CA 90292

Tel: 310-822-1511 ext. 211



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 18:42:17 1997
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Message-Id: <199704090141.SAA00282@jgrosch.hq.freegate.net>
Subject: Re: availability of 100Mb ethernet drivers
In-Reply-To: <199704090055.AA01466@zephyr.isi.edu> from Anne Hutton at "Apr 8, 97 05:55:05 pm"
To: hutton@ISI.EDU
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 18:41:33 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Reply-To: jgrosch@FreeGate.net
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>
>Hi,
>
>which 100Mb ethernet drivers (apart from the de driver) are available or 
>planned and for which versions of FreeBSD?
>
>Also has anyone any information on whether their counterparts in NetBSD are in 
>better or worse shape...
>
>thanks,
>
>Anne Hutton
>
>
>

fxp, which is the driver for the PCI Intel EtherExpress Pro/100. We use
them here at the job and they seem to work pretty nicely.


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch         | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 2.2.1
jgrosch@FreeGate.net |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 19:39:30 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:26:13 -0400
From: robin@intercore.com (Robin Cutshaw)
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Cc: matt@lkg.dec.com (Matt Thomas), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: How to get the latest de driver under FreeBSD...
In-Reply-To: <199704090003.JAA21528@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Apr 9, 1997 09:33:41 +0930
References: <199704041613.QAA28898@whydos.lkg.dec.com> <199704090003.JAA21528@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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Michael Smith writes:
> 
> Is anyone actively looking at committing this?  If not, I'll take it - we
> certainly need it.
> 

I tried to upload the changes to freefall but I don't have upload access
to incoming.  I tried to email the changes to this list but the email
hasn't shown up (even though the mail made it to the mail hub).

I'm not sure what to do to get these changes in...

robin
-- 
----
Robin Cutshaw         internet: robin@interlabs.com robin@intercore.com
Internet Labs, Inc.   BellNet:  404-817-9787

    "Time is just one damn thing after another" -- PBS/Nova
----
--

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 20:15:55 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 00:15:33 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: SATAN under FreeBSD
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.96.970409001136.202A-100000@thelab.hub.org>
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Hi...

	Has anyone tried to run SATAN under FreeBSD?  I just grabbed it to
run at my FreeBSD hosts, installed perl5.003, did a reconfig/make and
then typed in ./satan

	The instructions talk about going to SATAN Target Selection as a
starting point, so I click on that and it gives me a 'SAVE AS...' box, 
saves the .pl file and then goes back to the main menu...

	I've gone through the docs to see if there is a question/answer 
related to this, but can't find one.  Looking at the .pl file it creates,
it looks like legit html, but it isn't doing anything with it :(

	Anyone with experience using this under FreeBSD?  perl is a weak
(or, rather, non-existent) language for me still, so going through the
'satan' and the 'perl/html.pl' files means absolutely nothing to me :(

	Oh, if it matters, I'm running FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT on the machine
I'm trying to run SATAN from...

Thanks...

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 20:30:30 1997
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Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 10:30:55 -0700
From: Dedy <dedy@indosat.net.id>
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Subject: help: getting libdes.so.2.1
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Hello,

I'm trying to install Stronghold secure server on a Pentium-based
machine with FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE OS. Stronghold keep asking for file
named 'libdes.so.2.1' that is not available on my OS. Does anynone know
where to get that file(s)?

Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,

Dedy

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 21:16:58 1997
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I'd like to see a new ping option which does the opposite of -a; includes
a bell character when the packet is lost. -A seems to be the proper name 
for such an option.



--
Josh Gilliam
Orange, California, USA
soil@quick.net


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 21:50:45 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:59:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704090059.UAA07429@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!root.com!dg, ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers,
        ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers, ponds!lambert.org!terry
Subject: Re: Some insight on "dup alloc" problems.....
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Terry writes:
> 
> >  Here's today's installment :-)
> > 
> >  See what you think about this.
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> > Does anyone have any other potential functions to check into (that is,
> > what could be run in my small region that could cause the problem.)
> > [I note that aha_intr() isn't in the list above - I assumed that since
> > we were at splbio(); I wouldn't need to check on that.]
> 
> Establish a lock in getnewvnode() to prevent it from being reentered.
> 
> Really.
> 
> Sleep on the addrss of the proc struct or something equally process
> specific.
> 
> Use a while loop and reacquire after wakeup to make sure that you aren't
> one of several waiters (the one who didn't get the lock).
> 
> If you have to sleep in kmem_malloc() or the vm system, you'll notice
> that all processes will sleep on the same addresses, with no guard against
> thundering herd causing them to acquire the same memory.

 I have it on good authority that there is a mutex lock there to
prevent this problem... can you point me to the 2.1.7 source you're
talking about (with say, some arrows labeling "<<< right here", no
need to be less than obvious...)  and we can verify that.

 Ummm... besides; the location I'm dealing with doesn't sleep,
it could only be interrupted by something higher than splbio().
[like a hardclock, for instance, which I'm not even sure FreeBSD
has - I haven't read that source yet.]

	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 21:50:49 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:07:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704090107.VAA07486@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!time.cdrom.com!jhk, ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers
Subject: Re: Some significant (daresay serious) problems with 2.2.1 install & keyboard
Cc: ponds!freebsd.org!hackers
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> 
> > I'm using the 2.2.1-RELEASE from ftp.freebsd.org; with the
> > boot.flp found in floppies/newer.  [There is no checksum there,
> > so I have no way of validating my copy...]
> 
> And I assume that the "older" boot.flp does the same thing on this
> 386?  I'm just trying to establish an effective timeframe for the
> breakage.  Thanks!
> 
> 					Jordan
> 

 Well; previously I had reported that the "older" boot floppy did
not demonstrate the problem.

 However, this afternoon I experienced the problem again on a Dell P90
box (circa 1995.)

 However, there were some circumstances that might make this easier
to reproduce for a diagnosis.

 I was trying to scroll-lock on the device probes to ensure I had
entered everything correctly in the CLI (the port for ep0 needed to
change from the value in the GENERIC kernel); but instead of pressing
[Pause] - I had pressed [Scroll Lock].   This, of course, did not
prevent me from going into the nice/graphical installation... but it
did cause the problem I previously described to appear.  Very few
keys actually caused any action; and the only action that was caused
was the "Do you want to exit the install?" dialog.


	- Hope that helps -
	 - Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Apr  8 21:50:49 1997
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Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 21:22:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704090122.VAA07502@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers
Subject: Re: ucbvax.Berkeley.edu
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Well - I have some interesting news to report.

After freefall's sendmail was corrected; I no longer see 
the strange introduction of ucbvax.Berkeley.edu.

However; I am seeing a strange introduction of uu.uunet.net.

I'm beginning to suspect freefall.cdrom.com's sendmail.cf isn't
properly handling some uucp addresses... although exactly which
ones I can't say; because it seems to handle most.

	- Dave Rivers -


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 02:37:59 1997
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To: Josh Gilliam <soil@quick.net>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: new ping option 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 21:16:53 PDT."
             <Pine.BSF.3.96.970408210837.303B-100000@jg.dyn.ml.org> 
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 02:37:56 -0700
Message-ID: <403.860578676@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> I'd like to see a new ping option which does the opposite of -a; includes
> a bell character when the packet is lost. -A seems to be the proper name 
> for such an option.

This whole direction for ping is a complete and total crock. :-(

If you want to make this general, have ping(1) return a status on a
single failure or a single success, then choosing to beep, fart,
whistle, flash or provide whatever form of notification most pleases
you.  There is NO reason I can see for building this behavior into
ping, and whomever added the beep (well, OK, it was Bruce Murphy - CVS
doesn't allow you to play coy very convincingly about this kind of
thing :-) should probably be shot at dawn, but I suppose we could also
spare him and simply back out that most un-UNIX-like change to
ping. :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 02:46:16 1997
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To: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Some significant (daresay serious) problems with 2.2.1 install & keyboard 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 21:07:33 EDT."
             <199704090107.VAA07486@lakes.water.net> 
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 02:46:12 -0700
Message-ID: <455.860579172@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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>  However, there were some circumstances that might make this easier
> to reproduce for a diagnosis.
> 
>  I was trying to scroll-lock on the device probes to ensure I had
> entered everything correctly in the CLI (the port for ep0 needed to
> change from the value in the GENERIC kernel); but instead of pressing
> [Pause] - I had pressed [Scroll Lock].   This, of course, did not

I think that falls under "PLIBCAK*" and I will therefore consider this
bug report closed. :-)

					Jordan

* Problem Lies In Between Chair And Keyboard. :)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 03:50:42 1997
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From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704091041.GAA08473@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!time.cdrom.com!jkh, ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers
Subject: Re: Some significant (daresay serious) problems with 2.2.1 install & keyboard
Cc: ponds!freebsd.org!hackers
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>
>>  However, there were some circumstances that might make this easier
>> to reproduce for a diagnosis.
>> 
>>  I was trying to scroll-lock on the device probes to ensure I had
>> entered everything correctly in the CLI (the port for ep0 needed to
>> change from the value in the GENERIC kernel); but instead of pressing
>> [Pause] - I had pressed [Scroll Lock].   This, of course, did not
>
>I think that falls under "PLIBCAK*" and I will therefore consider this
>bug report closed. :-)
>
>					Jordan
>
>* Problem Lies In Between Chair And Keyboard. :)
>

 Hmmm... I wouldn't think so.

 You see; 
	1) on one more modern machine I was able to cause the problem.
	2) On an older machine, I don't have to do anything to cause 
	   the problem - it's "just there."
	3) In no circumstance (in my opinion) should the system installation
	   do "strange things" with the keyboard.  So what if you accidently
	   press Scroll-lock; why does that cause the wrong key values?
	   [note that pressing scroll-lock again doesn't fix the problem];
	   Now, if this was NUM-LOCK, and I had said the digits don't
	   work; then we could close it, but that's not what's going on.

	- Dave Rivers -


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 04:04:59 1997
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To: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Some significant (daresay serious) problems with 2.2.1 install & keyboard 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 Apr 1997 06:41:58 EDT."
             <199704091041.GAA08473@lakes.water.net> 
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 04:04:53 -0700
Message-ID: <766.860583893@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> 	3) In no circumstance (in my opinion) should the system installation
> 	   do "strange things" with the keyboard.  So what if you accidently
> 	   press Scroll-lock; why does that cause the wrong key values?

Because I think that keyboard input during a "scroll lock" interval
has always been undefined.

					Jordan

P.S. Your headers are still irredeemingly mangled and I'm getting
rather weary of editing them.  Is there any way you can at least
get the cc working again?  As it is, they're not fit fodder for
any mailer.

Thanks!

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 04:10:16 1997
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Attn: The kind folks who sent me a Kingston NIC and an NCR SCSI card
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 04:10:14 -0700
Message-ID: <800.860584214@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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I got your donations for the "new freefall", thank you, but I don't
have enough contact details to know what you want your "donor's
gallery" entries to look like, nor can I find your email addresses in
my mail archives and the original packing boxes have sort of gone
astray.  heh. :-} Hence this public announcement.  If you sent me a
Kingston Ethernet card or an NCR 53C875 based PCI SCSI controller,
please drop me an email and let me know how you'd like to be listed
(yourself, your company or both).  My apologies for fumbling your
contact info like this.

Thanks!

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 04:28:07 1997
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Message-Id: <19970409124808.58823@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 12:48:08 +0200
From: Stefan Esser <se@freebsd.org>
To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: pci probes with multiple "units"
References: <3.0.32.19970408111312.00b28560@etinc.com>
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In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970408111312.00b28560@etinc.com>; from dennis on Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 11:13:14AM -0400
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On Apr 8, dennis <dennis@etinc.com> wrote:
> 
> What is the preferred method (assuming that there is more than one
> way to do it) to handle multiple multiport devices in Freebsd. It seems 
> (I could be wrong) that the *first* adapter always probes/attaches as unit
> 0 (even if the declaration is...
> 
> device de4
> 
> for example), the *second* as 1, etc.  If you have 2 boards with 4 ports 
> each, logically you would like to declare:
> 
> device de0 
> device de4

PCI config lines are only scanned for the *name* of the device.
Everything else is automatic ...
You don't need a line per device. The drivers are all expected
to support an arbitrary number of cards ...

> and have the device names correspond to the actual port device
> numbers, but I suspect that this won't work (I  havent actually tried
> it yet).
> 
> It can certainly be done manually by calling if_attach with the correct
> number, but is there a better, physical way to do it so that the probes
> are done with the root/first port on the board?

There is no easy way to know which device is the "root" device,
since this concept is out of the scope of the PCI bus. The PCI
BIOS maps all devices into system memory (or port space), but
you have no way to know whether the BIOS scans from low to high
slot numbers or reverse, or whether it is even depths first (as
reported once), leading to a possibly very surprising scan order.

As long as you can't assign a physical position to a PCI device,
there is no use in having multiple device lines in the config
file. But the specification of the physical position is not a
number, it is a sequence of slot numbers, arbitrarily long ...
(In fact, 8 levels of slot numbers might be sufficient.)

A device that will be probed as de0 on pci1:0 could possibly
have to be declared as:

device de0 at pci9.4.5.0-0

This could be the second slot on the mother board (if actual
slots start at PCI slot number 8) where an PCI extender box
has been installed, 4 could be the internal slot used by the
cable of that box, 5 could be a physical slot in the extender
box, 0 the number of the device behind the PCI to PCI bridge
on a multi-channel Ethernet card, and finally 0 the "function"
number of the PCI device on the PCI chip (which can be omitted
in most cases).

And if you think this is a constructed unrealistic example,
then I can send you the probe message of a system that would
require an even longer slot sequence ;-)


I've been thinking about the topic of assigning PCI device
instances to physical positions, but did not yet come to any
workable result ...

Regards, STefan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 04:28:29 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:02:00 +0200
From: Stefan Esser <se@freebsd.org>
To: stesin@gu.net
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, scsi@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2 PCI busses, 2 AIC chips, 2.2.1. Howto ?
References: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970402122302.283F-100000@trifork.gu.net>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970402122302.283F-100000@trifork.gu.net>; from Andrew Stesin on Wed, Apr 02, 1997 at 01:03:25PM +0300
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On Apr 2, Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net> wrote:

Sorry for the late reply, I just returned from a vacation ...

> The box: Intel XXpress-<smth>, 2 AIC7870 chips onboard, EISA bus present.

Is this a Pentium or PPro system ?

> neither of AICs are recognized at boot. ??? I have the following guesses:
> 
> 1. neither of the 2 SCSI busses has anything attached yet (disk drives will
>    come in a day or two, they ordered drives separately, and no Wide
>    drives here to try).

Should not cause any trouble ...

> 3. 2.2.1 has some problem with two PCI busses? (while both AICs are
>    on the second bus??? or on EISA???) What I see at boot
>    after the "Probing devices on the pci:0 bus" message:
> 
> chip0 <generic PCI bridge (vendor=8086 device=1225 subclass=0)> \
> 	rev 2 on pci0:0
> chip1 <Intel 82375EB PCI-EISA bridge> rev 5 on pci0:14
> pci0:15:0: Intel Corporation device=0x0008, class=0xff, subclass=0x00 \
> 	[no driver assigned]
> .....^^^^....
> 	This last message is repeated exactly for all pci0:15:[0-7]
> 	values.

This may be caused by (incorrectly) assuming, that chip
was a multi-function device. This does not cause any 
problems, though ...

> What I am missing?  Any comments and explanations are appreciated!

Seems you have some way of obtaining the boot message log.
Could you please provide me with VERBOSE boot messages ?
(Eenter "-v" at the "Boot: " prompt.)

The problem you are facing comes from the fact, that PCI 
specifies a single bus directly attached to the CPU, and
a tree structure of seconfary buses connected to it.
Since this limits the number of low-latency slots to at
most 5, server machines often come with more than one bus
directly attached to the CPU. But there is no standard way
of telling, how many buses are actually connected to a CPU
(1 is assumed), and while the bus numbers behing PCI to PCI
bridges can be determined in a chip-independent way, this
is not possible in the case of multiple CPU to PCI chips.
Device specific code has to be added for each of them.

(The information on the number of buses can be queried by 
calling the PCI BIOS, but I'd prefer, if I not have to,
for a number of reasons ...)

I need more information on the chip set used on that mother
board. The Orion should be supported out of the box, but if
this is a system with multiple PCI buses directly attached
to the CPU based on some other chip set, a small addition 
to the PCI probe code will be required.

Regards, STefan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 05:19:29 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:19:13 +0200 (MET DST)
From: frank@wins.uva.nl (Frank van der Linden)
X-Organisation: Faculty of Mathematics, Computer Science, Physics & Astronomy
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech-kern@netbsd.org
Subject: NFSv3 cookie jar
Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org
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The following problem has been lying around for too long, so I'd like
to finally solve it. I first stumbled on it over a year ago, when
testing the NFSv3 code integrated into NetBSD against Solaris 2.5, and
had several other run-ins with it since. I saw that FreeBSD also encountered
the problem sometime last month, so I'll send this to freebsd-hackers as well
as tech-kern, to avoid Yet Another Duplicate Effort.


In NFSv2, directory offsets were specified as 32 bits, and they were
real offsets, i.e. they could be interpreted as numbers.

NFSv3 changed a couple of things. First of all, all offsets became 64 bits.
For some reason, directory offsets became opaque, they can no longer be
interpreted as numbers. In practice this will probably still be possible
most of the time, but you can't really take chances; it's the spec that
says you can't do it after all. Also, NFSv3 introduced cookie verifiers,
opaque entities returned by the server after each directory operation,
to be passed along by the client in subsequent operations. These verifiers
can be used by the server to see whether the directory has been modified
in the meantime. Invalid cookies can be detected that way.

Now, this all sounds like an improvement. However, this leaves some problems
for people implementing NFSv3. Like: what are the criteria for the server
to return a 'bad cookie' error, i.e: what constitutes a change in a directory
such that old offsets are now invalid? More seriously: what to do at the
client side when the server returns a 'bad cookie' error?

Rick Macklem's code uses the filerev field from the vnode attributes to
check whether a directory has been modified. On the other hand, Solaris 2.5
doesn't do any checks at all. Their server always returns a 0 cookie.
The problems start to appear..

The BSD filerev check turned out to be too strict for Solaris 2.5 clients,
or at least: for the user on the Solaris 2.5 client. Solaris has adopted
the policy that a 'bad cookie' error is passed up to getdents() as
an error (EINVAL). I guess it's one way to go. However, programs bail out
because of this at weird moments. Whoever expects getdents() to return
EINVAL because of this? I 'fixed' this about a year ago by removing the
filerev check from the BSD server code.

I'm not saying that Solaris' approach of passing on the error to the
userlevel is that bad. After all, what is a good method of recovering?
The BSD code simpy re-reads all of the directory blocks until it
hits the right offset again whenever it gets NFSERR_BAD_COOKIE. However,
suppose you have a directory of 3 blocks. You read the first block.
Your offset is now at the end of the first block. You delete all the
files in the first block. You want to read the 2nd block. You get
BAD_COOKIE. So then you start again from the beginning, until you
are at the wanted offset. However, the first block has disappeared now,
so your offset lands you at what was originally the 3rd block. You've
missed the 2nd block entirely.

The best way to solve this is probably to only use userland code that
doesn't mix create/remove/rename operations with getdirentries/readdir
operations. Things are actually mostly OK for the standard BSD utilities,
because they use fts(3), and this reads in the entire directory before
doing anything. Another way to go would be to have opendir() read in
the entire directory, so that other applications using that interface
would also be safe. Other systems that you may have as client might
still fail, but for them, all that you can do is take out the BAD_COOKIE
check entirely. A problem will be emulated binaries, such as SVR4 binaries,
that will do reads in 1048 byte chunks, mixed with dir operations.
Yet another possibility would be to do read-aheads in the NFS bio
code whenever a directory is read at offset 0, pulling in the whole
dir (within reasonable limits..).. ok that's just a thought.

Another issue is how to deal with the 64 bit cookies in the BSD code.
There's no 64 bit field in the buffer struct to store them. What Rick
did (I assume to minimize the changes to the rest of the kernel) is to
maintain a mapping between offsets and cookies per nfs node, iff VDIR
at least. This information is invalidated whenever an NFS dir buffer
is invalidated. The problem with the code implementing this, is that
it can't distinguish between EOF and a bad cookie. This can have some
unexpected results, i.e. the layer above thinks EOF has reached, when
it was in fact the result of invalidated cookie info. With the result
that you end up missing some files in the directory (a whole block).
I disabled nfs_invaldir to prevent this, letting the server take care
of signalling bad cookies. This has a (much less frequent) effect
of sometimes seeing duplicate files, so it's not a great solution either.
I know that FreeBSD's current code does distinguish between EOF and
a bad cookie, but while this is a fix, it is still prone to the error
of losing a block mentioned 2 paragraphs above.

All in all, I've come to the conclusion that patching directory(3) to
always read the whole directory might be the best thing to do. For
emulated binaries, well.. the emulation could try a read-ahead
(for in-kernel emulations that is), but it may be impossible to
get completely right.

Basically, this means:

	1) Get rid of nfs_invaldir and the seperate cookie lists.
	2) Be able to store a 64bit quantity in a struct buf.
	   This would either mean an extra field, or make daddr_t
	   64 bits wide.
	3) Pass the offset cookies up unmodified (interface change
	   to VOP_READDIR: u_long * -> off_t *). This change could
	   probably be avoided, but it would be very inconsistent not
	   to do so.
	4) The last argument to getdirentries(2) becomes an off_t *,
	   not a long *, so that the 64bit offset cookies can be
	   used by directory(3) functions.
	5) The kernel will make no attempt to recover from a BAD_COOKIE
	   error, and just make getdirentries(2) return EINVAL.
	6) opendir(3) will read in all of the directory if it sees
	   that the directory is on NFS. This is currently already
	   done for union directories, so it's a small change. opendir(3)
	   should restart the operation of reading the whole
	   directory if it gets EINVAL (i.e. the directory was modified
	   while it was reading), to make sure a consistent view
	   of the directory is obtained.

I might have missed some details, so please tell me if I did. If not,
I'd like to do an experimental implementation of this soon and test it;
the changes aren't that big.

- Frank

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 05:47:58 1997
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	Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:48:02 +0200 (SAT)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:48:02 +0200 (SAT)
From: Khetan Gajjar <khetan@chain.iafrica.com>
Reply-To: Khetan Gajjar <khetan@iafrica.com>
To: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: SATAN under FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.970409001136.202A-100000@thelab.hub.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970409144705.22836D-100000@chain.iafrica.com>
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On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

>	The instructions talk about going to SATAN Target Selection as a
>starting point, so I click on that and it gives me a 'SAVE AS...' box, 
>saves the .pl file and then goes back to the main menu...

Using Netscape, right ?

Use Chimera (it's in the ports).
Not the world's greatest browser, but it works for Satan.

---
Khetan Gajjar         [ http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan] 
I'm a FreeBSD User!   [     http://www.freebsd.org    ]
PGP Key		      [finger khetan@chain.iafrica.com]
UUNet Internet Africa [0800-030-002 & help@iafrica.com]


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 06:04:11 1997
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Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 09:02:13 -0400
To: Stefan Esser <se@freebsd.org>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: pci probes with multiple "units"
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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At 12:48 PM 4/9/97 +0200, Stefan Esser wrote:
>On Apr 8, dennis <dennis@etinc.com> wrote:
>> 
>> What is the preferred method (assuming that there is more than one
>> way to do it) to handle multiple multiport devices in Freebsd. It seems 
>> (I could be wrong) that the *first* adapter always probes/attaches as unit
>> 0 (even if the declaration is...
>> 
>> device de4
>> 
>> for example), the *second* as 1, etc.  If you have 2 boards with 4 ports 
>> each, logically you would like to declare:
>> 
>> device de0 
>> device de4
>
>PCI config lines are only scanned for the *name* of the device.
>Everything else is automatic ...
>You don't need a line per device. The drivers are all expected
>to support an arbitrary number of cards ...
>
>> and have the device names correspond to the actual port device
>> numbers, but I suspect that this won't work (I  havent actually tried
>> it yet).
>> 
>> It can certainly be done manually by calling if_attach with the correct
>> number, but is there a better, physical way to do it so that the probes
>> are done with the root/first port on the board?
>
>There is no easy way to know which device is the "root" device,
>since this concept is out of the scope of the PCI bus. The PCI
>BIOS maps all devices into system memory (or port space), but
>you have no way to know whether the BIOS scans from low to high
>slot numbers or reverse, or whether it is even depths first (as
>reported once), leading to a possibly very surprising scan order.
>
>As long as you can't assign a physical position to a PCI device,
>there is no use in having multiple device lines in the config
>file. But the specification of the physical position is not a
>number, it is a sequence of slot numbers, arbitrarily long ...
>(In fact, 8 levels of slot numbers might be sufficient.)
>
>A device that will be probed as de0 on pci1:0 could possibly
>have to be declared as:
>
>device de0 at pci9.4.5.0-0
>
>This could be the second slot on the mother board (if actual
>slots start at PCI slot number 8) where an PCI extender box
>has been installed, 4 could be the internal slot used by the
>cable of that box, 5 could be a physical slot in the extender
>box, 0 the number of the device behind the PCI to PCI bridge
>on a multi-channel Ethernet card, and finally 0 the "function"
>number of the PCI device on the PCI chip (which can be omitted
>in most cases).
>
>And if you think this is a constructed unrealistic example,
>then I can send you the probe message of a system that would
>require an even longer slot sequence ;-)
>
>
>I've been thinking about the topic of assigning PCI device
>instances to physical positions, but did not yet come to any
>workable result ...

How does it determine the "unit" number that is passed to the pci_attach 
function? Is it the number of non null probe returns from a particular
pci_probe?

In other words, can I assume that with multiple cards, scanned in some 
indeterminable order, that the units will be passed as 0,1,2, etc even with
only a single device entry in the config file?


Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 06:39:28 1997
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Date: 9 Apr 1997 13:39:16 GMT
From: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm)
Message-ID: <860593155.985855@haywire.DIALix.COM>
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Subject: Re: How to get the latest de driver under FreeBSD...
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In article <199704090003.JAA21528@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>,
	msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) writes:
> Matt Thomas stands accused of saying:
>> 
>> I just wrote a web page on how to upgrade/update your FreeBSD so
>> it can run the latest de driver (which is in NetBSD).
>> 
>> It's at http://www.3am-software.com/ifmedia.html .  Note that the NetBSD
>> is in much better shape than the current FreeBSD driver.
>> 
>> (www.3am-software.com is now 206.107.21.156 if you have problems accessing
>> that page)
> 
> Is anyone actively looking at committing this?  If not, I'll take it - we
> certainly need it.

Beware!  There are bugs in the "how-to" on the web page..  I've
discovered some changes to net/if.c that were missed, It either causes
the SIOC{GS}IFMEDIA ioctl's to either be ignored, or to allow
non-priviliged users to change the media settings.  Imagine Joe Hacker
on your shell server being able to change the ethernet card settings...

I've got this stuff in my tree at the moment and was about to give it a
shot.
 
> Thanks Matt!

Cheers,
-Peter

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 06:51:35 1997
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In article <403.860578676@time.cdrom.com>,
	jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes:
>> I'd like to see a new ping option which does the opposite of -a; includes
>> a bell character when the packet is lost. -A seems to be the proper name 
>> for such an option.
> 
> This whole direction for ping is a complete and total crock. :-(

Well, heck, I _like_ it and use it a lot! :-]  It's already saved me loads
of time while waiting for machines to boot.
 
> If you want to make this general, have ping(1) return a status on a
> single failure or a single success, then choosing to beep, fart,
> whistle, flash or provide whatever form of notification most pleases
> you.  There is NO reason I can see for building this behavior into
> ping, and whomever added the beep (well, OK, it was Bruce Murphy - CVS
> doesn't allow you to play coy very convincingly about this kind of
> thing :-) should probably be shot at dawn, but I suppose we could also
> spare him and simply back out that most un-UNIX-like change to
> ping. :-)

Well, how would the semantics work?  Send a single ping, wait for a maximum
of 'n' seconds and return a status?  There is a program called fping (now
a port) that already does this, and can do multiple machines at once.

peter@spinner[9:48pm] fping -t 300 haywire spinner nuclear
spinner is alive
haywire is alive
nuclear is unreachable
peter@spinner[9:48pm] echo $?
1
peter@spinner[9:48pm] fping -t 300 haywire
haywire is alive
peter@spinner[9:49pm] echo $?
0
peter@spinner[9:49pm]#

> 					Jordan

Cheers,
-Peter (With his "I don't care if it's bloat, I like it!" hat on :-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 07:00:57 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:00:29 -0600
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Subject: time.h and strptime() 
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Solaris and gnu's libc both have a strptime() function in the 
standard time.h header... Does freebsd have an equivalent anywhere
or will I need to hack one out if I want to use it.

???

Please respond via email!

jasonh@cei.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 07:20:41 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:07:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704091407.KAA05310@ponds.water.net>
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Subject: V2.2.1 (as of 4/8/97) and NFS.... Help....
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I've just upgraded my machine at work from 2.1.5 to 2.1.1 (well,
not upgraded; I whiped the disk and did a clean install.)

This machine sits in a network of PCs and HPs (HP/UX 9.0.5.)

Version 2.1.5's NFS had no problems mounting HP file systems;
but 2.2.1 isn't cooperating at all.

The mounts work fine; but, as soon as I go do an NFS mounted
directory and do an "ls" - the session is "hung" - in fact, accesses
via that mount point will hang.

The first nfsiod appears to be sitting in accept(); while 
the others are waiting on select().

HP/UX 9.0.5 is quite old; so I don't believe this is a V2 vs. V3
situation.  In any event, I went to force V2 on FreeBSD, but I can't
find the option (it doesn't appear to be documented in the man page...)

	- All hung up -
	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 07:52:09 1997
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Date: 9 Apr 1997 14:51:31 GMT
From: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm)
Message-ID: <860597491.656387@haywire.DIALix.COM>
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In article <199704061600.MAA22131@lakes.water.net>,
	ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com (Thomas David Rivers) writes:
>> 
>>    From: proff@suburbia.net
>>    Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 19:43:16 +1000 (EST)
>> 
>>    My gee-whiz qmail auto-everything port has been in
>>    ftp.FreeBSD.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming for a while now (hint);
>> 
>>    Cheers,
>>    Julian.
>> 
>> Are we ready for religious wars? I certainly think that qmail should be
>> an optional MTA for freebsd (if it can't be the default). Admittedly,
>> you have to do things 'differently' with qmail, but arguably, the
>> 'different' way is the way it should always have been.
>> 
>> Let the people decide! If the port already exists, why isn't it in there?
>> 
>> -mark
>> 
> 
>  Ok - I'm ready to be convinced (I've hacked on sendmail enough to
> think "there's got to be an easier way.")
> 
>  I've got several machines all networked together on a private network;
> mail goes out/comes in on one of the machines via a UUCP connection.
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Each user has a .forward which sends the mail to their own machine
> (a reasonable approach on a small network.)  Also, there are two Win/95
> machines I'd like to add to this...
> 
>  Can qmail handle it, and, if so, how do I set it up?
> 
> 	- Dave Rivers -

Last time I checked, I got the impression that qmail didn't support
uucp-style addressing.  I think there was a way of using uucp if you
used BSMTP style encapsulation of messages rather than rmail style.
Mind you, I'm not sure that this is such a bad thing, unless you happen
to be on the back end of an rmail stytle mail feed.  IMHO, uucp ! syntax
needs to die.

-Peter

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 08:14:05 1997
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To: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm)
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: new ping option 
In-reply-to: Your message of "09 Apr 1997 13:51:00 GMT."
             <860593860.311485@haywire.DIALix.COM> 
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 08:13:44 -0700
Message-ID: <17886.860598824@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Well, how would the semantics work?  Send a single ping, wait for a maximum
> of 'n' seconds and return a status?  There is a program called fping (now
> a port) that already does this, and can do multiple machines at once.

It sounds like fping is just the ticket then.  Why not simply
something like this in your .bashrc for your beeping ping?

function bping {
	while :; do
		if /usr/local/sbin/fping -q -t 250 $1; then
			echo "$1 is alive!!"
			break;
		fi
	done
}

See, for someone like me, a beep is even less than relevant.  My PC
has such a weak speaker that I can't even hear it over the fans and so I
might as well not have a speaker at all.  For myself, I'd substitute in
something like ``xmessage "$1 is alive!"'' so I could actually see it.

In other words, one man's feep is another man's popup notifier and
ping shouldn't be making unwarranted assumptions! :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 08:20:49 1997
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From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704091509.LAA09007@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!time.cdrom.com!jhk, ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers
Subject: Re: Some significant (daresay serious) problems with 2.2.1 install & keyboard
Cc: ponds!freebsd.org!hackers
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> 
> > 	3) In no circumstance (in my opinion) should the system installation
> > 	   do "strange things" with the keyboard.  So what if you accidently
> > 	   press Scroll-lock; why does that cause the wrong key values?
> 
> Because I think that keyboard input during a "scroll lock" interval
> has always been undefined.

 Oh... OK - that sounds reasonable; except for the "older" hardware
situation.

> 
> 					Jordan
> 
> P.S. Your headers are still irredeemingly mangled and I'm getting
> rather weary of editing them.  Is there any way you can at least
> get the cc working again?  As it is, they're not fit fodder for
> any mailer.

 It's not me - really, I swear...

 Can you send me the headers you've got; maybe I can figure it out.
[I'm strongly suspecting the sendmail.cf at freefall.cdrom.com, do you
get your mail there? Jmb would probably be interested in this as well.]

> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 					Jordan

	- Dave R. -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 08:20:58 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:06:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
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Just a little more information; if I go to an NFS-mounted
directory and do an ls -l; the ls -l hangs up.

ps -xal indicates it's hung up in "sbwait".

	- Dave Rivers -


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 08:24:45 1997
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From: rick@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca
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Subject: NFSv3 dir cookies
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Basically, it all sounds reasonable to me. What feedback I've seen from Sun
basically recognizes that directory offset cookies can't be implemented
correctly and were a mistake. (Servers should just always send a 0 cookie
and ignore ones returned from clients.) You might try email to
nfs3@sun.eng.com and see if they give you the same response?

As for putting offsets in the buf structure, I think it is the best place
to keep them (and you noted, when I wrote the code I was trying to avoid
buf structure changes, etc.). At that point, you are back to handling
directories just like v2 did, which seems to be about as good as you can
do. The idea of doing a lot of client readahead for directories sounds
good, too. (I would set an upper bound on "all", just in case someone
exports a directory with many thousands of entries. Not a particularily
good idea, but somebody will do it anyhow:-)

As for the BAD_COOKIE error return from a server, if Sun considers it
fatal, you probably should too.

Sounds like a good little project, rick

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 08:28:52 1997
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Pentium II????
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 09:28:43 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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I was looking at one of the chip places and noticed that there is a
"Pentium II 233/512k" and "Pentium II 266/512k" available.  What are
these beasts?  I've never seen them before...

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 08:33:50 1997
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Hi,
I think that's the wromng list but I am only here :))
Anybody could tell me what to do with my nice little diff file for apache1.2b7 
to apache1.2.b7-1.13SSL ???

Thank's

Michael


-- 
                                Michael Bielicki                       
Link Design International Ltd.                 Buisnetco Telecommunications Ltd.
65 Cliff Road, Tramore,                               Office 23, 13, Iras Street
Co. Waterford, Ireland                              Nicosia 1061, Rep. of Cyprus
Tel: +353-51-390880                                          Tel: +357 2 362 421
Fax: +353 51 386921    http://www.linkdesign.com 	     Fax: +357 2 367 266

--k0hoCL9XbhcSqy8n
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 08:44:59 1997
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	Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:33:28 +0800 (WST)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 23:33:27 +0800 (WST)
From: Adrian Chadd <adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: new ping option(s) ? 
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On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> See, for someone like me, a beep is even less than relevant.  My PC
> has such a weak speaker that I can't even hear it over the fans and so I
> might as well not have a speaker at all.  For myself, I'd substitute in
> something like ``xmessage "$1 is alive!"'' so I could actually see it.
> 
> In other words, one man's feep is another man's popup notifier and
> ping shouldn't be making unwarranted assumptions! :-)
> 
> 					Jordan
> 

*grin*

You're missing out on such a LOVELY quality ping too... :)

Personally I like it, since it lets me jump behind the server racks and do
the "jiggle" thing (with the cables, silly:) .. Although I'd love to see
ping -f -a <host> work.:)

*hands Jordan a 5W amplifier and speaker for his PC squaker* :)

I missed the original postings(flames?) about the audiable ping, anyone
bring up the option of an external "ping!" program? Sorta like

ping -a -F ping.sh hostname

and ping.sh catted a nice submarine ping reply .au to the sound device or
something. :)

(Oh god I'm going to get carried away soon.. I'd better leave it and goto
sleep :)

Cya

-- 
Adrian Chadd			| UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ...
<adrian@psinet.net.au>		| (also known as the Good, the bad and the
				|				ugly..)


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 08:50:48 1997
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@freefall.FreeBSD.org>
Message-Id: <199704091509.IAA24479@freefall.freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: ucbvax.Berkeley.edu
To: ponds!ponds!rivers (Thomas David Rivers)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 08:09:35 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: ponds!ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers
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Thomas David Rivers wrote:
> 
> 
> Well - I have some interesting news to report.
> 
> After freefall's sendmail was corrected; I no longer see 
> the strange introduction of ucbvax.Berkeley.edu.
> 
> However; I am seeing a strange introduction of uu.uunet.net.
> 
> I'm beginning to suspect freefall.cdrom.com's sendmail.cf isn't
> properly handling some uucp addresses... although exactly which
> ones I can't say; because it seems to handle most.

	freefall is not uucp connected.  all uucp mail is relayed
	thru uu.uunet.net.  they still do uucp, i believe.
	what do you suggest?
	dont be shy, uucp is not my forte ;)

jmb

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 09:15:10 1997
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Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 16:06:49 +0000
From: Patrice BLEUZE <fritz!pbl@dorotech.fr>
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Subject: Re: Pentium II????
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Warner Losh wrote:
> 
> I was looking at one of the chip places and noticed that there is a
> "Pentium II 233/512k" and "Pentium II 266/512k" available.  What are
> these beasts?  I've never seen them before...
> 
> Warner

This is a Pentium Pro MMX thing.

Look at http://sysdoc.pair.com for more information.


pbl

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 09:47:26 1997
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>"Pentium II 233/512k" and "Pentium II 266/512k" available.

Klamath.  Intel has a page about it at www.intel.com.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 10:23:14 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 13:22:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Tao <taob@nbc.netcom.ca>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: availability of 100Mb ethernet drivers
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On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Josef Grosch wrote:
> 
> fxp, which is the driver for the PCI Intel EtherExpress Pro/100. We use
> them here at the job and they seem to work pretty nicely.

    I think the vx driver also supports 100 Mbps operation, although I
haven't tried it myself (I have a 3com 3C900 10/100Mbps controller,
but on a 10 Mbps LAN).
-- 
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 10:28:21 1997
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Subject: Re: Some insight on "dup alloc" problems.....
To: ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com (Thomas David Rivers)
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>  I have it on good authority that there is a mutex lock there to
> prevent this problem... can you point me to the 2.1.7 source you're
> talking about (with say, some arrows labeling "<<< right here", no
> need to be less than obvious...)  and we can verify that.
> 
>  Ummm... besides; the location I'm dealing with doesn't sleep,
> it could only be interrupted by something higher than splbio().
> [like a hardclock, for instance, which I'm not even sure FreeBSD
> has - I haven't read that source yet.]

kern/vfs_subr.c:
| int
| getnewvnode(tag, mp, vops, vpp)
| 	enum vtagtype tag;
| 	struct mount *mp;
| 	vop_t **vops;
| 	struct vnode **vpp;
| {
| 	register struct vnode *vp;
| 
| retry:
| 	vp = vnode_free_list.tqh_first;
| 	if (freevnodes < (numvnodes >> 2) ||
| 	    numvnodes < desiredvnodes ||
| 	    vp == NULL) {
| 		vp = (struct vnode *) malloc((u_long) sizeof *vp,
| 		    M_VNODE, M_WAITOK);
                *************************************************
| 		bzero((char *) vp, sizeof *vp);
| 		numvnodes++;
| 	} else {

kern/kern_malloc.c:
| void *
| malloc(size, type, flags)
  *************************
### malloc( sizeof(struct vnode), M_VNODE, M_WAITOK)
| 	unsigned long size;
| 	int type, flags;
| {
| 	register struct kmembuckets *kbp;
| 	register struct kmemusage *kup;
| 	register struct freelist *freep;
| 	long indx, npg, allocsize;
| 	int s;
| 	caddr_t va, cp, savedlist;
| 	register struct kmemstats *ksp = &kmemstats[type];
        **************************************************
### ksp = &kmemstats[ M_VNODE];
| 
| 	if (((unsigned long)type) > M_LAST)
| 		panic("malloc - bogus type");
| 	indx = BUCKETINDX(size);
| 	kbp = &bucket[indx];
| 	s = splhigh();
| 	while (ksp->ks_memuse >= ksp->ks_limit) {
| 		if (flags & M_NOWAIT) {
| 			splx(s);
| 			return ((void *) NULL);
| 		}
| 		if (ksp->ks_limblocks < 65535)
| 			ksp->ks_limblocks++;
| 		tsleep((caddr_t)ksp, PSWP+2, memname[type], 0);
                ***********************************************
### tsleep((caddr_t)&kmemstats[ M_VNODE], PSWP+2, memname[M_VNODE], 0);
###
### All getnewvnode callers sleep on this same address if the soft limit
###      is reached.
### All getnewvnode callers sleeping on this address wake up at the
###      same time (only ksp->ks_limblocks is manipulated inside the
###      loop, and the loop is conditional on a variable modified
###      later in the function.
###
| 	}
| 	ksp->ks_size |= 1 << indx;
| 	if (kbp->kb_next == NULL) {
            ********************
### Say kbp->kb_next is not NULL; say that while we were sleeping, we
### had one or more processes returning stuff.
###             [ ... elided code ... ]
| 	}
| 	va = kbp->kb_next;
| 	kbp->kb_next = ((struct freelist *)va)->next;
        *********************************************
###
### Terry thinks the ->next is not correctly set because the buffer
###     is not really free at the time that the freeing context sleeps,
###     is interrupted, etc..
###
### How can this happen?  Well, it takes three processes: one to go
###     in and block on the bucket sleep, another to go in and block
###     on the bucket sleep, and another to go in and do a free to
###     split the continuation path for the first two, and do a
###     wakeup which wakes up both, when only one should be awakened.
###     Then the first one that wakes up has to go block in the
###     pager so that the second one can "catch up" and screw it.
###
### How do I test this theory?  Well, look at free() in kern/kern_malloc.c
###     ...can the diagnostic for multiple frees be triggered even if
###     there are not multiple explicit calls to free()?
###
| 	kup = btokup(va);
| 	if (kup->ku_indx != indx)
| 		panic("malloc: wrong bucket");
| 	if (kup->ku_freecnt == 0)
| 		panic("malloc: lost data");
| 	kup->ku_freecnt--;
| 	kbp->kb_totalfree--;
| 	ksp->ks_memuse += 1 << indx;
| out:
| 	kbp->kb_calls++;
| 	ksp->ks_inuse++;
| 	ksp->ks_calls++;
| 	if (ksp->ks_memuse > ksp->ks_maxused)
| 		ksp->ks_maxused = ksp->ks_memuse;
| 	splx(s);
        ********
###
### The interrupt theory, shot to hell...
###
| 	return ((void *) va);
| }



I'm *NOT* talking about the vm_map_lock() in kmem_malloc() in vm/vm_kern.c;
*that* IS a mutex that isn't reentered (l->want_write is tested, and
l->want_write is set, with no chance of reentrancy in lock_write()).


How can I test this theory and fix the bug?  Protect getnewvnode() so that
it can not be reentered.  If the problem still occurs, you need to use
the same lock address to protect other vnode manipulation routines in
vfs_subr.c (do not use the lock twoce in the same call graph); eventually,
you will isolate the list corruption and the problem will go away.


Other things to try:

1)	Turn off KMEMSTATS.  This will be hard to do; the code would
	not be unconditionally on if it could be safely turned off.

2)	Turn on DIAGNOSTIC and see if you get a different panic than
	the "dup alloc" panic.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 10:39:11 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704091719.KAA07174@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: time.h and strptime()
To: hudginsj@smtp.dancooks.com (Jason Hudgins)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:19:42 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <EC9C10323@smtp.dancooks.com> from "Jason Hudgins" at Apr 9, 97 09:00:29 am
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> Solaris and gnu's libc both have a strptime() function in the 
                                     **********
> standard time.h header... Does freebsd have an equivalent anywhere
                                                 **********
> or will I need to hack one out if I want to use it.

This question would be easier to answer if you told it what it does.

If it returns a NULL given any time struct at all, you can use this:


#define	strptime(timeval)	NULL

I kind of doubt that's the behaviour you're looking for?

8-|


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 10:46:00 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704091726.KAA07200@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: help: getting libdes.so.2.1
To: dedy@indosat.net.id
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 10:26:13 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <334BD24F.523@indosat.net.id> from "Dedy" at Apr 9, 97 10:30:55 am
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> I'm trying to install Stronghold secure server on a Pentium-based
> machine with FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE OS. Stronghold keep asking for file
> named 'libdes.so.2.1' that is not available on my OS. Does anynone know
> where to get that file(s)?

You need to install DES.

You will need to get it from one of the international sites that carry
it, since you are not permitted to get it from the US.


When you install DES, your user passwords may need updating as well
so that you will be able to get back into your machine.  Also if you
are running XDM, you will need the DES XDM.

Whether you will have a big hassle really depends on whether your
machine is a high enough version that it can take either MD5 or DES
passwords from the shadow (database) and handle them equally well;
if not, it will be a hassle.  You should look at the notes that
come with the DES distribution for your particular release of FreeBSD.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 11:04:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:03:15 -0700
From: John-Mark Gurney <jmg@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
To: Peter Wemm <peter@spinner.DIALix.COM>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: new ping option
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Peter Wemm scribbled this message on Apr 9:
> Well, how would the semantics work?  Send a single ping, wait for a maximum
> of 'n' seconds and return a status?  There is a program called fping (now
> a port) that already does this, and can do multiple machines at once.

heh.. you don't need an program other than ping to do that...  see:
hydrogen,ttyp0,~/term.code,614$ping -c 1 -i 1 dad
PING dad.nike.efn.org (192.168.0.4): 56 data bytes

--- dad.nike.efn.org ping statistics ---
1 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss
hydrogen,ttyp0,~/term.code,615$echo $?
2
hydrogen,ttyp0,~/term.code,617$ping -c 1 -i 1 sob
PING sob.nike.efn.org (192.168.0.2): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 192.168.0.2: icmp_seq=0 ttl=255 time=2.450 ms

--- sob.nike.efn.org ping statistics ---
1 packets transmitted, 1 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 2.450/2.450/2.450 ms
hydrogen,ttyp0,~/term.code,618$echo $?
0

-- 
  John-Mark
  Cu Networking                             Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954

  Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 11:19:46 1997
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From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch>
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Subject: Re: time.h and strptime()
In-Reply-To: <199704091719.KAA07174@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 9, 97 10:19:42 am"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 11:19:04 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: hudginsj@smtp.dancooks.com, hackers@freebsd.org
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>> Solaris and gnu's libc both have a strptime() function in the 
>                                     **********
>> standard time.h header... Does freebsd have an equivalent anywhere
>                                                 **********
>> or will I need to hack one out if I want to use it.
>
>This question would be easier to answer if you told it what it does.
>
>If it returns a NULL given any time struct at all, you can use this:
>
>
>#define	strptime(timeval)	NULL
>
>I kind of doubt that's the behaviour you're looking for?
>
>8-|

I think he meant strftime(3) which we do support.


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch         | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 2.2.1
jgrosch@FreeGate.net |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 11:47:11 1997
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From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" <mishania@snutteplutt.demos.su>
Message-Id: <199704091845.WAA00631@snutteplutt.demos.su>
Subject: ipfilter / 2.2.1
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:45:35 +0400 (MSD)
Cc: mishania@snutteplutt.demos.su (Mikhail A. Sokolov),
        bag@snutteplutt.demos.su (Alex G. Bulushev)
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Hello, 

The question is, - I tried to plug this version of Julian's patches (?) to use
those with 3.2a4 of ipfilters and I still see:
# ipf -f /tmp/111
open device: Device not configured
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
#
where /tmp/111 is just simpliest rule by mkfilters, as it is in example.

and: 
# ls -la /dev/ip*
crw-------  1 root  wheel   79,   0  9 ÁĐ̉ 22:36 /dev/ipl
crw-------  1 root  wheel   79,   1  9 ÁĐ̉ 22:36 /dev/ipnat
crw-------  1 root  wheel   79,   2  9 ÁĐ̉ 22:36 /dev/ipstate
#

I also tried loadable version, and I got:
# modload /lkm/if_ipl_mod.o
/lkm/if_ipl_mod.o: Undefined symbol `_devfs_add_devswf' referenced from text segment
/lkm/if_ipl_mod.o: Undefined symbol `_devfs_remove_dev' referenced from text segment
modload: /usr/bin/ld: return code 1
#

This is "stock" 2.2.1-R, and I guess devfs isn't what I am to use with it ?

Any clues are appreciated in advance, thank you.

-mishania

uname -a
FreeBSD xxx.demos.su 2.2.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE #0: Wed Apr  9 22:26:08 MSD 1997     mishania@xxx.demos.su:/usr/src/sys/compile/XXX  i386

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 13:23:24 1997
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From: proff@suburbia.net
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Subject: Re: ipfilter/2.2.1 / devfs (general)
In-Reply-To: <199704091845.WAA00631@snutteplutt.demos.su> from "Mikhail A. Sokolov" at "Apr 9, 97 10:45:35 pm"
To: mishania@demos.su
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:22:48 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> Hello, 
> 
> The question is, - I tried to plug this version of Julian's patches (?) to use
> those with 3.2a4 of ipfilters and I still see:
> # ipf -f /tmp/111
> open device: Device not configured
> ioctl(SIOCADDFR): Bad file descriptor
> #
> where /tmp/111 is just simpliest rule by mkfilters, as it is in example.

Did you rebuild your kernel ? what does dmesg|grep -i ipf say ?

> and: 
> # ls -la /dev/ip*
> crw-------  1 root  wheel   79,   0  9 ÁĐ̉ 22:36 /dev/ipl
> crw-------  1 root  wheel   79,   1  9 ÁĐ̉ 22:36 /dev/ipnat
> crw-------  1 root  wheel   79,   2  9 ÁĐ̉ 22:36 /dev/ipstate
> #
> 
> I also tried loadable version, and I got:
> # modload /lkm/if_ipl_mod.o
> /lkm/if_ipl_mod.o: Undefined symbol `_devfs_add_devswf' referenced from text segment
> /lkm/if_ipl_mod.o: Undefined symbol `_devfs_remove_dev' referenced from text segment
> modload: /usr/bin/ld: return code 1
> 
> This is "stock" 2.2.1-R, and I guess devfs isn't what I am to use with it ?
> 
> Any clues are appreciated in advance, thank you.
> 
> -mishania

These devfs errors are because you didn't build your kernel with
devfs support enabled.  You can turn off devfs support by commenting
out the -DDEVFS in /usr/src/lkm/if_ipf/Makefile.

While I'm on this subject - by default devfs support is not included with
any modules, due to nothing defining #DEVFS during compilation. Seems
to be something that needs addressing - either devfs should become
non-optional, or stubs should be included.

Cheers,
Julian.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 13:37:51 1997
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To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
cc: proff@suburbia.net, hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org,
        current@freebsd.org, julian@freebsd.org, kaveman@magna.com.au
Subject: Re: ipfilter-proff.shar.gz 
From: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@freebsd.org>
Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@freebsd.org>
X-Email: jhs@freebsd.org, Fallback: jhs@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
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             <199704082329.QAA10393@freefall.freebsd.org> 
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Hi, Reference:
> From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au> 
>
> ... IP Filter ...
> 
> I recall the last email I read on the subject was from Julian, 
> 
> Darren

Which Julian ?  Loads of them in FreeBSD :-)

Chronologically : ...
 Julian.Elischer:       julian@freebsd.org
 Julian Stacey		jhs@freebsd.org
 Julian.Jenkins:        kaveman@magna.com.au julianj@vast.unsw.edu.au
 Julian.Assange:        proff@suburbia.net proff@iq.org

If anyone is _The_ Julian in FreeBSD, it'd be Elischer, (he was
first here, & is julian@freebsd.org).
I had assumed you meant Elischer, but Gary Jennejohn (there are at least
3 Garys) told me you didn't mean Elischer, so maybe you meant Jenkins or
Assange, or another new Julian ?

Whilst every last Julian is undoubtedly a great boon & blessing to FreeBSD ;-))
it does seem the name is more common than one might imagine, so please folks,
append at least a Surname initial to the Julians, Thanks :-)

A.N.Other Julian	....	Julian S.
--
Julian H. Stacey	jhs@freebsd.org  	http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 13:59:09 1997
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Subject: Re: ipfilter/2.2.1 / devfs (general)
In-Reply-To: <19970409202248.2334.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at "Apr 10, 97 06:22:48 am"
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:58:57 +0400 (MSD)
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From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" <mishania@demos.su>
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> Did you rebuild your kernel ? what does dmesg|grep -i ipf say ?
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 yes, several times, since I tried both versions.^^^^^
						nothing, but now it works,
since DDEVFS was commented out.

> 
Btw, in line 294 of /sys/netinet/ip_input.c there's a line which reflects what
to do if some if failed, like 'goto next;' but this next is never defined. I am
talking about patched version of ip_input.c.


Talking about if it works now: since I made it very ugly way to override error, 
described above (i.e. commented out line 294, so if the rule failes it will just
use another if ) just to check if it loads for now, I see the machine crashed
and reboots and of course it has disk being tested on it which failed fsck and
nobody there to press enter :-( 

Those lines are as follows (I took it from your diffs):
         * Check if we want to allow this packet to be processed.
         * Consider it to be bad if not.
         */
-       if (fr_check) {
+       if (fr_checkp) {
                struct  mbuf    *m1 = m;

                if ((*fr_checkp)(ip, hlen, m->m_pkthdr.rcvif, 0, &m1) || !m1)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ After this line we have goto next;, which is nowhere.

Another problem is if_ipf compiles with loads of warnings about redeclaration
from different types in various *.h's which belong to ip_filter 3.2a4, though
it compiles.

Might be I messed the things up myself though.

Thanks you,

> Julian.

-mishania


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 14:09:53 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:09:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ian Kallen <spidaman@well.com>
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...FreeBSD User Group formation discussion shall commence.  Interested?
Mail to majordomo@arachna.com with the message
subscribe freebsd-sf

The next interface will not be another desktop metaphor.... Ian Kallen ....
http://www.well.com/user/spidaman/ ....the revolution will not be televised.
===== TO RECEIVE MY PGP KEY, SEND MAIL TO spidey-pgp-info@well.com =======


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 14:19:10 1997
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To: asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami)
cc: stesin@gu.net, se@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, scsi@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Intel XXpress again (was: 2 PCI busses, 2 AIC chips, 2.2.1. Howto ? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 14:58:31 PDT."
             <199704082158.OAA27677@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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> * 	I'm considering this, but I don't trust my own skills of
> * 	hacking pretty unfamiliar kernel code to get production
> * 	system running in 2-3 days...  I still hope that there already is
> * 	a solution...
>
>Well, let's see if David can help you.

   I am, of course. I've attached the fix I used on the Intel Alder box, but
I don't know if the patch will even apply cleanly anymore...so you might
have to do this by hand.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

Index: pci.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/pci/pci.c,v
retrieving revision 1.23.4.5
diff -c -r1.23.4.5 pci.c
*** 1.23.4.5	1996/01/19 19:21:03
--- pci.c	1996/01/30 08:18:14
***************
*** 158,163 ****
--- 158,173 ----
      0x4000000, 0xFFFFFFFFu,	/* nonprefetch membase/limit */
      0x4000000, 0xFFFFFFFFu	/* prefetch membase/limit */
  };
+ #define SECOND_BUS 1
+ static	struct pcicb	pcibus1 = {
+     NULL, NULL, NULL,
+     { 0 },
+     0, SECOND_BUS, 0, 0,
+     0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,	/* real allocation */
+     0, 0xFFFF,			/* iobase/limit */
+     0x2000000, 0xFFFFFFFFu,	/* nonprefetch membase/limit */
+     0x2000000, 0xFFFFFFFFu	/* prefetch membase/limit */
+ };
  static	struct pcicb   *pcicb;
  
  /*========================================================
***************
*** 207,212 ****
--- 217,238 ----
  		if (pcicb)
  			pcicb = pcicb->pcicb_next;
  	}
+ #if 1
+ 	for (pcicb = &pcibus1; pcicb != NULL;) {
+ 		pci_bus_config ();
+ 
+ 		if (pcicb->pcicb_down) {
+ 			pcicb = pcicb->pcicb_down;
+ 			continue;
+ 		};
+ 
+ 		while (pcicb && !pcicb->pcicb_next)
+ 			pcicb = pcicb->pcicb_up;
+ 
+ 		if (pcicb)
+ 			pcicb = pcicb->pcicb_next;
+ 	}
+ #endif
  	pci_conf_count++;
  }
  

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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:02:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704092102.RAA09652@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers
Subject: More on 2.2.1 NFS problems....
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Just more information on my problems reported earlier:

  1) I can reproduce the hanging file system when mounting from
     HP/UX 9.05 or Sunos 4.1.3

  2) It's not related to "ls" in any particular fashion; after the
     a process reading from an NFS mounted file system hangs other
     processes also hang when they attempt any read, or any access
     at all.

  3) A ps -axl of the hung processes indicates they are waiting in 
     "sbwait"

  4) Interestingly enough; I installed this machine via NFS, so whatever
     mount_nfs options sysinstall used were reliable enough to load
     a binary and XFree86 distribution.

  5) This is on an ep0 ethernet device (that could matter) - but other
     network traffic works (i.e. ping, ftp, telnet, etc...)

  6) I dropped the read and write packet sizes to 1024 (-r1024 and
     -w1024 on the fstab lines) - that didn't help the problem.  An
     example line from /etc/fstab is:

       jarryd.unx.sas.com:/local/disk3 /nfs/jarryd.unx.sas.com/local/disk3     nfs rw,-w1024,-r1024,-t60 0 0

  7) Again, this is 2.2.1-RELEASE as of 4/8/97, downloaded from freefall.

	- Dave Rivers -



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 14:20:53 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:36:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704092036.QAA09624@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers
Subject: "calcru: negative time" messages (FreeBSD-2.2.1)
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I'm getting these messages after my install of 2.2.1:

Apr  9 16:30:25 numb /kernel: calcru: negative time: -330 usec
Apr  9 16:30:25 numb /kernel: calcru: negative time: -330 usec

 They don't seem to obviously coincide with anythine; can anyone
shed some light on this?

	  - Thanks -
	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 14:36:06 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com (Thomas David Rivers), hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Some insight on "dup alloc" problems..... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 Apr 1997 10:09:09 PDT."
             <199704091709.KAA07150@phaeton.artisoft.com> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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...
>| 		vp = (struct vnode *) malloc((u_long) sizeof *vp,
>| 		    M_VNODE, M_WAITOK);
>                *************************************************

   There are mutex locks in the callers of getnewvnode (specifically UFS)
which force the calls to it to be single-threaded, preventing the vnode
allocation race condition you are refering to. I know because I added them
over a year ago:

revision 1.24
date: 1995/07/21 03:52:40;  author: davidg;  state: Exp;  lines: +34 -4
Implement a lock in ffs_vget to prevent a race condition where two processes
try allocate the same inode/vnode, causing a duplicate.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 14:47:15 1997
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Message-Id: <199704092127.OAA07549@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Some insight on "dup alloc" problems.....
To: dg@root.com
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:27:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704092135.OAA22510@root.com> from "David Greenman" at Apr 9, 97 02:35:09 pm
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> ...
> >| 		vp = (struct vnode *) malloc((u_long) sizeof *vp,
> >| 		    M_VNODE, M_WAITOK);
> >                *************************************************
> 
>    There are mutex locks in the callers of getnewvnode (specifically UFS)
> which force the calls to it to be single-threaded, preventing the vnode
> allocation race condition you are refering to. I know because I added them
> over a year ago:
> 
> revision 1.24
> date: 1995/07/21 03:52:40;  author: davidg;  state: Exp;  lines: +34 -4
> Implement a lock in ffs_vget to prevent a race condition where two processes
> try allocate the same inode/vnode, causing a duplicate.

Hmm...

If so, the locks wouldn't help -- but they wouldn't hurt, either.

The real idea was to prevent allocate and delete operations from
being interleaved, not to really fix the problem: just work around
it.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 14:54:23 1997
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To: peter@spinner.dialix.com (Peter Wemm)
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: sendmail in 2.2 
In-reply-to: <860597491.656387@haywire.DIALix.COM> 
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:49:33 +1000
From: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
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On 9 Apr 1997 14:51:31 GMT  Peter Wemm wrote:

> Last time I checked, I got the impression that qmail didn't support
> uucp-style addressing.  I think there was a way of using uucp if you
> used BSMTP style encapsulation of messages rather than rmail style.

Ugh.  Why not find or write a qmail aware rmail that can strip the !
stuff from the envelope?  (I can't route to www.qmail.org to check the
contributed software ... surely someone has done this?)

Mailers that still put ! in non-envelope headers should be taken out
and shot.  If support for this level of brokenness (sorry, Dave) is
required then sendmail is a more suitable MTA than qmail.  IMHO. :)

Giles


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 15:19:22 1997
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From: "Malcolm newton" <mnewton@newland.com>
To: <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: tty-level buffer overflows
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 18:19:43 -0400
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I get "tty-level buffer" overflows when a connection is made on the cuaa1
modem. 
Any idea what this is an how do I increase the buffer size for sio1 and
what's the
 max size.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 16:08:26 1997
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To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
cc: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>, hackers@freebsd.org
From: dkelly@hiwaay.net
Subject: Re: Netatalk 
In-reply-to: Message from John-Mark Gurney <jmg@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> 
   of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 01:43:48 PDT." <19970408014348.04642@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> 
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John-Mark Gurney writes:
> Daniel O'Callaghan scribbled this message on Apr 8:
> > 
> > Can someone please point me in the right direction of *using* netatalk, 
> > besides compiling a kernel.  Where are the userland management programs? 
> > I can't find them in ports.
> 
> go to the netatalk's home page at http://www.umich.edu/~rsug/netatalk/..
> they should be able to help... it is suppose to compile and run out of
> the box on freebsd...

It *would* be nice to have this (and others) in a minimal port if for no 
other reason than to generate the entry in /var/db/pkg so pkg_delete can 
remove it on upgrade. Didn't it install the man pages in 
/usr/local/atalk/man/ or am I thinking of PostgreSQL? (not near my netatalk 
machine).

Another fine reason for a port is that I often consult my FreeBSD 
/usr/ports for useful utilities long before web surfing, even for utilities 
I need on SGI and Sun systems.

Rather than make the port myself, I'd suggest (stealing an idea from EE 
Times) that this is somebody's chance to Become Immortal Immediately, get 
your name on the FreeBSD CDROM. Contribute a port.

--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net
=====================================================================
The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its
capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 16:29:20 1997
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Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 19:28:25 -0400
To: hackers@freebsd.org
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem UPDATE
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Since reporting that I couldnt do an nfs or ftp load on 2.2.1R with only
8 meg of ram, I've discovered i also cant do it with 12..the symptom being
that the system hangs while loading the bin distribution. I've since 
discovered that I can load the minimal, binary only and full source
distribution, but the kernel developer distribution hangs every time.

Could there be a bug in that selection?

I notice that when I select kernel developer, it also automagically
selects user. This never happened in previous releases. Is this
supposed to happen? Could there be a problem with an allocation
somewhere?

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 17:39:14 1997
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Message-Id: <199704100038.KAA28341@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: How to get the latest de driver under FreeBSD...
In-Reply-To: <860593155.985855@haywire.DIALix.COM> from Peter Wemm at "Apr 9, 97 01:39:16 pm"
To: peter@spinner.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:08:37 +0930 (CST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Peter Wemm stands accused of saying:
> 
> I've got this stuff in my tree at the moment and was about to give it a
> shot.

Sounds like I should stand well clear then; if you've done all the 
groundwork it would be stupid for me to interrupt 8)

> -Peter

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 18:02:05 1997
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Message-Id: <199704100100.KAA28556@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: time.h and strptime()
In-Reply-To: <199704091819.LAA00286@jgrosch.hq.freegate.net> from Josef Grosch at "Apr 9, 97 11:19:04 am"
To: jgrosch@FreeGate.net
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:30:14 +0930 (CST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hudginsj@smtp.dancooks.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Josef Grosch stands accused of saying:
> >
> >#define	strptime(timeval)	NULL
> >
> >I kind of doubt that's the behaviour you're looking for?
> 
> I think he meant strftime(3) which we do support.

No, he meant strptime, which has been discussed before.  It's the reverse
of strftime.  

> Josef Grosch         | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 2.2.1

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 18:34:58 1997
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem UPDATE 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 Apr 1997 19:28:25 EDT."
             <3.0.32.19970409192821.00af15a0@etinc.com> 
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 18:34:49 -0700
Message-ID: <19681.860636089@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> I notice that when I select kernel developer, it also automagically
> selects user. This never happened in previous releases. Is this
> supposed to happen? Could there be a problem with an allocation
> somewhere?

It's just a change in the way the flags are displayed.  It now shows
all "qualifying" sets which are selected, some of which are supersets
of others.  I had to do it this way because of the way you're now
allowed to go back in and select individual dists via custom to
augment the "canned" sets.  I wanted to show whenever you had
*everything* in a canned set selected, regardless of whether other
larger sets matched the same criteria.

Potentially confusing, yes, but at least it makes sense.  The previous
scheme was confusing and occasionally made no sense at all (it was
easy to get it confused about what "set" was really selected and get
totally erroneous display output).

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 19:05:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Message-Id: <199704100205.TAA19911@time.cdrom.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: The donor's page has been reorganized...
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With special mention now made to the people who are donating equipment
to replace the overloaded P5/90 that is freefall.freebsd.org.  Give it
a look, and the donors a great big pat on the back! :-)

		http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/donors.html

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 19:24:00 1997
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 22:05:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704100205.WAA11636@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!etinc.com!dennis, ponds!freebsd.org!hackers
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem UPDATE
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> 
> 
> Since reporting that I couldnt do an nfs or ftp load on 2.2.1R with only
> 8 meg of ram, I've discovered i also cant do it with 12..the symptom being
> that the system hangs while loading the bin distribution. I've since 
> discovered that I can load the minimal, binary only and full source
> distribution, but the kernel developer distribution hangs every time.
> 
> Could there be a bug in that selection?
> 
> I notice that when I select kernel developer, it also automagically
> selects user. This never happened in previous releases. Is this
> supposed to happen? Could there be a problem with an allocation
> somewhere?
> 
> Dennis
> 

 I'm seeing NFS hangs after a system install (see my previous
reports in the freebsd-hackers list.)  I'm beginning to suspect
we simply have an NFS bug here and that your problems aren't
particular to "install time."


 I was, however, able to load a custom setup which was basically
binary + des + Xfree86 over NFS - I didn't try the full source or
kernel developer distribution.  

	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 20:04:05 1997
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To: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@freebsd.org>
cc: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>, proff@suburbia.net,
        hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org,
        julian@freebsd.org, kaveman@magna.com.au
Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org
From: "Gary Palmer" <gpalmer@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: ipfilter-proff.shar.gz 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 09 Apr 1997 19:33:37 +0200."
             <199704091733.TAA08869@desk.jhs.no_domain> 
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 23:02:57 -0400
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"Julian H. Stacey" wrote in message ID
<199704091733.TAA08869@desk.jhs.no_domain>:
> I had assumed you meant Elischer, but Gary Jennejohn (there are at least
> 3 Garys) told me you didn't mean Elischer, so maybe you meant Jenkins or
> Assange, or another new Julian ?

There are WAY more than three Garys these, days, and everytime I read
a mail which blames a `Gary' for something I have to stop and think
``was that me??''. It's enough to make a guy insecure!

(Reply-To: set appropriately)

Gary
--
Gary Palmer                                          FreeBSD Core Team Member
FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 20:09:18 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:02:35 +1000
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199704100302.NAA16451@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: mishania@demos.su, proff@suburbia.net
Subject: Re: ipfilter/2.2.1 / devfs (general)
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>These devfs errors are because you didn't build your kernel with
>devfs support enabled.  You can turn off devfs support by commenting
>out the -DDEVFS in /usr/src/lkm/if_ipf/Makefile.
>
>While I'm on this subject - by default devfs support is not included with
>any modules, due to nothing defining #DEVFS during compilation. Seems
>to be something that needs addressing - either devfs should become
>non-optional, or stubs should be included.

Ifdefed options are fundamentally incompatible with LKMs.  This means
that LKMs must not use nonstandard options like DEVFS, except possibly
if you keep the LKMs carefully synchronised with the kernel.

The IPFILTER and IPFILTER_LKM options are more of a problem than DEVFS
because they affect standard objects (ip_input.o and ip_output.o).  A
GENERIC kernel can't possibly support an ipfilter LKM since GENERIC
isn't configured with these options.  The corresponding problem for
ipfw is handled by using a negative option - COMPAT_IPFW defaults to 1.

The corresponding problem for file systems is very old and usually
not worried about.   The union filesystem can't be an LKM because of
a couple of `#ifdef UNION's in "machine-independent" code.  The ext2fs
filesystem can't be an LKM because of many `#ifdef EXT2FS's in ufs.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 20:40:12 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704100339.NAA29834@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704072026.NAA02009@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 7, 97 01:26:29 pm"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:09:10 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Terry Lambert stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > If you are taking your 2.2.1 sources and patching them to -STABLE,
> > you upgrade /etc/ like anyone else with source does.
> 
> Contestant #1:	That would be "By hand" for an hour, Bob...
> Bob:		Ab-So-LUTE-Ly Right!

Ah, about five minutes.  Especially if you're the neat sort that makes
notes.

> Is this true?  It's not how I remember it...  are you saying that if
> I modified init for rc.d style operation and run states, that the
> change in operation would be acceptable for integration?

If you were to do it in such a fashion that it was optional, ie.
people who actually liked the way that BSD does it now could still
have that, then yes, I believe it would.  (Stuffs rabid anti-sysv-ists
into sack, adds rocks, pushes into canal.)

> > You are detracting from a practically achievable solution by claiming to
> > advocate a solution that is not workable within the current constraints.
> 
> So modify the constraints.  8-).

Give me the money.  Wire my eyes open.  You get the picture 8)

> 					Terry Lambert

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 20:43:14 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704100342.NAA29865@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem FOUND
In-Reply-To: <19970407205133.25289@klemm.gtn.com> from Andreas Klemm at "Apr 7, 97 08:51:33 pm"
To: andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:12:00 +0930 (CST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, dennis@etinc.com, hackers@freebsd.org
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Andreas Klemm stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > A good memory diagnostic is to boot the FreeBSD install; if it fails
> > in 8M or more, you probably have flakey RAM.  8-).
> 
> BSDI comes with a RAM tester as add on utiliy on the BSDI CD.
> YOu can dd floppy image to floppy, boot from that floppy ...

I tested a pile of RAM testers here at one stage while I was having a
running brawl with our then-RAM supplier about some memory I knew was
faulty.

I didn't find a single one that would tell me the memory was busted,
but it most certainly was.  (They eventually relented, stuck it on
their tester, said "oh, well it is actually stuffed" and replaced it.
We shop elsewhere now.)

> andreas@klemm.gtn.com         /\/\___      Wiechers & Partner Datentechnik GmbH

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 22:14:29 1997
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), sef@kithrup.com, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704100339.NAA29834@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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	<199704100339.NAA29834@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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> > > If you are taking your 2.2.1 sources and patching them to -STABLE,
> > > you upgrade /etc/ like anyone else with source does.
> > 
> > Contestant #1:	That would be "By hand" for an hour, Bob...
> > Bob:		Ab-So-LUTE-Ly Right!
> 
> Ah, about five minutes.  Especially if you're the neat sort that makes
> notes.

Heck, even if you don't take notes, it's pretty easy if you know what
you're doing.  I upgraded the /etc files on Sean's box in about 15
minutes, and I've *NEVER* seen his box nor his configuration ever
before.



Nate

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 22:27:55 1997
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From: proff@suburbia.net
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Subject: Re: tty-level buffer overflows
In-Reply-To: <199704092220.SAA05144@newland.com> from Malcolm newton at "Apr 9, 97 06:19:43 pm"
To: mnewton@newland.com (Malcolm newton)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:27:15 +1000 (EST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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> I get "tty-level buffer" overflows when a connection is made on the cuaa1
> modem. 
> Any idea what this is an how do I increase the buffer size for sio1 and
> what's the
>  max size.

These are just serial driver buffer overflows for tty's in raw mode.

Cheers,
Julian.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 22:47:42 1997
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704100514.XAA24408@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Apr 9, 97 11:14:11 pm"
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:46:58 +1000 (EST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, sef@kithrup.com,
        hackers@freebsd.org
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> Heck, even if you don't take notes, it's pretty easy if you know what
> you're doing.  I upgraded the /etc files on Sean's box in about 15
> minutes, and I've *NEVER* seen his box nor his configuration ever
> before.
> 
> Nate

The design principals behind /etc are heading in the right direction
but seem to lack vision.  Jordon, call me an engineering psychopath,
but it is my belief that FreeBSD should attempt to adopt a file-system
organisation whereby after the system is installed, write access
can be removed completely from the root and /usr because any
configuration changes do not require modification of any of these
partitions. Upgrades, re-installation and protection against trojans
then become trivial.


--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Apr  9 23:57:03 1997
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From: grog@lemis.de
Message-Id: <199704100623.PAA01255@papillon.lemis.de>
Subject: Informix efficiency--any ideas?
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Hackers)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:23:05 +0900 (KST)
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat)
Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat)
Organisation: 	LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany
Phone: +49-6637-919123
Fax: +49-6637-919122
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This message doesn't really have anything to do with FreeBSD, but
possibly somebody here has an idea.  As a result, though it's a
technical subject, please follow up to -chat.

I'm currently in Korea looking at a performance problem with Informix
on a MIPS System V platform.  We are comparing two MIPS platforms with
different System V.4 implementations, A and B.  The A machine is an
SMP with 2 R4400s at 200 MHz; the B machine is an SMP with 2 R4400s at
150 MHz.  B runs a specific, and relatively simple, DB insert program
almost exactly twice as fast as A.

We did some examination and found that the port of Informix on A
performs 21729 system calls to insert 5000 records into a table.  Of
these, 21403 calls are to semsys.  B performs approximately half this
number of calls, equally split (what a surprise) between send() and
recv(): although it's System V.4, it has a native sockets
implementation.

I'm obviously following this up with Informix and vendor A, but I'd be
interested if anybody here had a view with a different bias.  Do
semaphores have to be so much less efficient, or could this just be a
poor semxxx() implementation on A?

Greg


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 00:09:36 1997
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To: proff@suburbia.net
cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        terry@lambert.org, sef@kithrup.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:46:58 +1000."
             <19970410054658.5894.qmail@suburbia.net> 
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:07:03 -0700
Message-ID: <20842.860656023@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> The design principals behind /etc are heading in the right direction
> but seem to lack vision.  Jordon, call me an engineering psychopath,

It's "Jordan" and ok, you're an engineering psychopath. ;-)

> but it is my belief that FreeBSD should attempt to adopt a file-system
> organisation whereby after the system is installed, write access
> can be removed completely from the root and /usr because any
> configuration changes do not require modification of any of these
> partitions. Upgrades, re-installation and protection against trojans
> then become trivial.

The problem is that the minute you start removing things from /etc and
putting them in their more "logical" places, the learning curve for
existing UNIX admins goes up and this too is "cost."

However, if you were to say that everything in /etc should depend on a
single writable configuration file, I wouldn't argue with the
principle (and it's what I had in mind for /etc/sysconfig) but simply
point to the fact that "everyone" knows about files like
/etc/resolv.conf too, and if you put "domain=blah.com" and
"resolver1=foo .. resolvern=bar" lines into /etc/sysconfig and
made resolv.conf redundant (or removed it) there would be a lot of
confusion.

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 00:35:27 1997
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: grog@lemis.de
CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <199704100623.PAA01255@papillon.lemis.de> (grog@lemis.de)
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Seems like B is an SGI/IRIX box, if so the results do no surprise
me one bit....

Correct me if I am wrong ;-)

---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s   ////
ethernet.  Beat that!                     ////
-----------------------------------------////__________  o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 00:47:41 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: Informix efficiency--any ideas?
In-Reply-To: <199704100623.PAA01255@papillon.lemis.de> from "grog@lemis.de" at "Apr 10, 97 03:23:05 pm"
To: chat@freebsd.org, grog@lemis.de
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:17:34 +0930 (CST)
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grog@lemis.de stands accused of saying:
> 
> We did some examination and found that the port of Informix on A
> performs 21729 system calls to insert 5000 records into a table.  Of
> these, 21403 calls are to semsys.  B performs approximately half this
> number of calls, equally split (what a surprise) between send() and
> recv(): although it's System V.4, it has a native sockets
> implementation.
> 
> I'm obviously following this up with Informix and vendor A, but I'd be
> interested if anybody here had a view with a different bias.  Do
> semaphores have to be so much less efficient, or could this just be a
> poor semxxx() implementation on A?

I don't think it's that the semaphores are less efficient, but that there
is more semaphore activity required to transfer the given data.

At a guess, a record transaction with semaphores goes something like :

 writer puts data in shared memory area, raises 'data is there' semaphore.
 reader wakes on semaphore, raises 'I am busy with your data' semaphore
 reader finishes with data, lowers 'I am busy with your data' semaphore
 writer wakes on semaphore, repeat.

That's 4 system calls for a single transaction.

With sockets, I would expect :

 writer calls send() with data, repeat
 reader returns from recv() with data, repeat

ie. two calls, and if socket buffering works the two will be decoupled
as well, reducing the impact of the (potentially) less efficient
send/recv by eliminating the context switches between transaction
cycles.

TBH, I don't know how the various SMP implementations would come into
play here; specifically on the send/recv model I would expect
(assuming an idle system) that one half would be running on each CPU,
ie. the long-term throughput would be that of the slowest component
rather than of the system as a whole.  In contrast, the lock-step
model using semaphores basically ensures that a single client/server
pair runs as a single logical thread.

> Greg

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 00:56:20 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:57:04 +0300 (EEST)
From: Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net>
Reply-To: stesin@gu.net
To: Stefan Esser <se@freebsd.org>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org, scsi@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2 PCI busses, 2 AIC chips, 2.2.1. Howto ?
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Hello Stefan,

On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Stefan Esser wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the late reply, I just returned from a vacation ...
> 
	Stefan, thanks for replying at all, don't make my cheeks shine red
	with the above disclaimer :)

> > The box: Intel XXpress-<smth>, 2 AIC7870 chips onboard, EISA bus present.
> 
> Is this a Pentium or PPro system ?

	"Normal" Pentium. 1 CPU module, P5/166.

> > What I am missing?  Any comments and explanations are appreciated!
> 
> Seems you have some way of obtaining the boot message log.
> Could you please provide me with VERBOSE boot messages ?
> (Eenter "-v" at the "Boot: " prompt.)

	I was a bit ill for last few days, wasn't able to do
	anything creative then... now I feel myself much better,
	will do this todays evening.

> The problem you are facing comes from the fact, that PCI 
> specifies a single bus directly attached to the CPU, and
> a tree structure of seconfary buses connected to it.
> Since this limits the number of low-latency slots to at
> most 5, server machines often come with more than one bus
> directly attached to the CPU.

	Seems this is exactly what Intel did...

> But there is no standard way
> of telling, how many buses are actually connected to a CPU
> (1 is assumed), and while the bus numbers behing PCI to PCI
> bridges can be determined in a chip-independent way, this
> is not possible in the case of multiple CPU to PCI chips.
> Device specific code has to be added for each of them.

	What I'm able to tell you for sure is that RedHat Linux 4.1
	installation floppies are seeing AICs (and disks)
	and using them; while FreeBSD-2.2.1 doesn't.

> (The information on the number of buses can be queried by 
> calling the PCI BIOS, but I'd prefer, if I not have to,
> for a number of reasons ...)
> 
> I need more information on the chip set used on that mother
> board. The Orion should be supported out of the box, but if
> this is a system with multiple PCI buses directly attached
> to the CPU based on some other chip set, a small addition 
> to the PCI probe code will be required.

	I'll set up a serial console and send a boot -v
	for this box to you this evening.
> 
> Regards, STefan
> 

Best regards,
Andrew Stesin

nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 01:08:27 1997
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199704100703.JAA15863@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:03:37 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: proff@suburbia.net, nate@mt.sri.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        terry@lambert.org, sef@kithrup.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <20842.860656023@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 10, 97 00:06:44 am
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> The problem is that the minute you start removing things from /etc and
> putting them in their more "logical" places, the learning curve for
> existing UNIX admins goes up and this too is "cost."

on the other hand, this shuffling of locations has already happened with
/etc/sysconfig and, for 2.2, with /usr/local/etc/rc.d

So, once you accept the principle that many things may not be in their
historical place, one more will make no difference. The one thing really to
avoid is to have two copies of the same thing, one of which is a fake
(like it was at times on AIX).

> However, if you were to say that everything in /etc should depend on a
> single writable configuration file, I wouldn't argue with the
> principle (and it's what I had in mind for /etc/sysconfig) but simply
> point to the fact that "everyone" knows about files like
> /etc/resolv.conf too, and if you put "domain=blah.com" and
> "resolver1=foo .. resolvern=bar" lines into /etc/sysconfig and
> made resolv.conf redundant (or removed it) there would be a lot of
> confusion.

how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
/etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is
what I have done for a long time to support diskless machines with
shared readonly root. Even Ultrix (from 4.0 onwards, circa 1990)
has used this kind of solution, yet the sysadm would just look into
/etc to find the right things.

And if there are too many links, one might just make the entire /etc a
symlink into /var/etc. The whole directory, on a freshly installed 2.2
is less than 500KB, and those things which are likely to grow are
databases which should be writable anyways.

I know that there is a chicken and egg problem -- you don't have /var
available until you have mounted it and this is done in /etc/rc after
reading /etc/fstab... but that might be fixed in the kernel somehow
while preserving the right semantics of /etc/fstab and friends. I am
more than willing to come out with some suggestions on this topic, but
only if this has a chance to get integrated in the system (otherwise, I
already have a working solution for my own needs and it is not worth
changing it for no purpose).

	Luigi
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 01:17:06 1997
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Subject: Re: ipfilter/2.2.1 / devfs (general)
In-Reply-To: <199704092059.AAA16126@skraldespand.demos.su> from "Mikhail A. Sokolov" at "Apr 10, 97 00:58:57 am"
To: mishania@demos.su
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> Another problem is if_ipf compiles with loads of warnings about redeclaration
> from different types in various *.h's which belong to ip_filter 3.2a4, though
> it compiles.

This is because it doesn't patch cleanly against the 2.2.1 kernel source.
See my next message for an updated version that supports 2.2.1

> -mishania

Cheers,
Julian.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 01:53:36 1997
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <20842.860656023@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Apr 10, 97 00:07:03 am"
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:52:44 +1000 (EST)
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org,
        sef@kithrup.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> However, if you were to say that everything in /etc should depend on a
> single writable configuration file, I wouldn't argue with the
> principle (and it's what I had in mind for /etc/sysconfig) but simply
> point to the fact that "everyone" knows about files like
> /etc/resolv.conf too, and if you put "domain=blah.com" and
> "resolver1=foo .. resolvern=bar" lines into /etc/sysconfig and
> made resolv.conf redundant (or removed it) there would be a lot of
> confusion.
> 
> 					Jordan

A reliable union layer would solve all these cases where one has
a standard "template" file that may or may not receive modification.
Upgrades of template files then wouldn't be an issue due to their
nature -- i.e an upgrade in the comments on the /etc/hosts file
probably has little value, and the operator can refer back to
the lower layer if they have any doubt.

The those files that are not template files, (e.g scripts like
rc*), there needs to be hooks at various stages of the process with
which external user-modfications can intervene. i.e if rc is broken
up into 20 different files, each file can test for the presence of
a user generated replacement, or intermediary for the next file
before calling it.

The current /usr/local/etc/rc.d/foo.sh method of starting deamons
is a podge. Both distribution and local startup sequences could
do well with a dependency configuration system controlling their
activation sequence.

e.g an /etc/options which contains files with the name of each
package, and the contents being a list of dependencies that need
to be satisfied and the initialisation script to run to satisfy
them. Here's a depraved idea (it gives me warm fuzzy feeling though)
make(1), controls the entire startup (and shutdown?) sequence ;)
I'll let you ruminate on that Jordan, I think it's just the kind
of thing you could Enjoy.

Cheers,
Julian.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 03:18:21 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: 430TX ?
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Is the 430TX chipset recognised/supported yet ?


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 03:25:55 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ipfilter / 2.2.1
To: mishania@demos.su
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:18:58 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, mishania@snutteplutt.demos.su,
        bag@snutteplutt.demos.su
In-Reply-To: <199704091845.WAA00631@snutteplutt.demos.su> from "Mikhail A. Sokolov" at Apr 9, 97 10:45:35 pm
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In some mail from Mikhail A. Sokolov, sie said:
> 
> Hello, 
> 
> The question is, - I tried to plug this version of Julian's patches (?) to use
> those with 3.2a4 of ipfilters and I still see:
[...]

If you are using 2.2.1, you should be able to use the stock 3.2a4 WITHOUT
any patches from Jullian Assange.  His patches are primarily for -CURRENT.

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 03:27:42 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: ipfilter/2.2.1 / devfs (general)
To: mishania@demos.su
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:20:18 +1000 (EST)
Cc: proff@suburbia.net, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704092059.AAA16126@skraldespand.demos.su> from "Mikhail A. Sokolov" at Apr 10, 97 00:58:57 am
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In some mail from Mikhail A. Sokolov, sie said:
> 
> > Did you rebuild your kernel ? what does dmesg|grep -i ipf say ?
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  yes, several times, since I tried both versions.^^^^^
> 						nothing, but now it works,
> since DDEVFS was commented out.
> 
> > 
> Btw, in line 294 of /sys/netinet/ip_input.c there's a line which reflects what
> to do if some if failed, like 'goto next;' but this next is never defined. I am
> talking about patched version of ip_input.c.
> 
> 
> Talking about if it works now: since I made it very ugly way to override error, 
> described above (i.e. commented out line 294, so if the rule failes it will just
> use another if ) just to check if it loads for now, I see the machine crashed
> and reboots and of course it has disk being tested on it which failed fsck and
> nobody there to press enter :-( 
> 
> Those lines are as follows (I took it from your diffs):
>          * Check if we want to allow this packet to be processed.
>          * Consider it to be bad if not.
>          */
> -       if (fr_check) {
> +       if (fr_checkp) {
>                 struct  mbuf    *m1 = m;
> 
>                 if ((*fr_checkp)(ip, hlen, m->m_pkthdr.rcvif, 0, &m1) || !m1)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ After this line we have goto next;, which is nowhere.
> 
> Another problem is if_ipf compiles with loads of warnings about redeclaration
> from different types in various *.h's which belong to ip_filter 3.2a4, though
> it compiles.
> 
> Might be I messed the things up myself though.

You should have had none of the above problems if you were using 3.2a4.

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 04:09:27 1997
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Subject: ipfilter-proff backported to 2.2.1
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:08:52 +1000 (EST)
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Replace src/sys-ipfilter-proff.diff after unpacking the
ipfilter-proff.shar distribution with the following patch
against FreeBSD-2.2.1 (should work with -2.2 also)

Index: conf/files
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/src/cvs/src/sys/conf/files,v
retrieving revision 1.80.2.7
diff -u -r1.80.2.7 files
--- files	1997/03/16 07:21:12	1.80.2.7
+++ src/sys/conf/files	1997/04/10 08:09:55
@@ -217,6 +217,12 @@
 netinet/tcp_timer.c	optional inet
 netinet/tcp_usrreq.c	optional inet
 netinet/udp_usrreq.c	optional inet
+../contrib-sys/ipfilter/mlf_ipl.c	optional ipfilter inet
+../contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_fil.c	optional ipfilter inet
+../contrib-sys/ipfilter/fil.c		optional ipfilter inet
+../contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_nat.c	optional ipfilter inet
+../contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_frag.c	optional ipfilter inet
+../contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_state.c	optional ipfilter inet
 netipx/ipx.c		optional ipx
 netipx/ipx_cksum.c	optional ipx
 netipx/ipx_error.c	optional ipx
Index: conf/options
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/src/cvs/src/sys/conf/options,v
retrieving revision 1.18.2.5
diff -u -r1.18.2.5 sys/conf/options
--- options	1997/02/28 15:41:25	1.18.2.5
+++ src/sys/conf/options	1997/04/10 08:01:09
@@ -84,3 +84,6 @@
 IPFIREWALL		opt_ipfw.h
 IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE	opt_ipfw.h
 IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE_LIMIT	opt_ipfw.h
+IPFILTER		opt_ipfilter.h
+IPFILTER_LKM		opt_ipfilter.h
+IPFILTER_LOG		opt_ipfilter.h
Index: i386/conf/GENERIC
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/src/cvs/src/sys/i386/conf/GENERIC,v
retrieving revision 1.77.2.4
diff -u -r1.77.2.4 i386/conf/GENERIC
--- GENERIC	1997/02/22 20:31:24	1.77.2.4
+++ src/sys/i386/conf/GENERIC	1997/04/10 08:01:09
@@ -23,6 +23,7 @@
 
 options		MATH_EMULATE		#Support for x87 emulation
 options		INET			#InterNETworking
+options		IPFILTER_LKM		#Hooks for ipfilter lkm
 options		FFS			#Berkeley Fast Filesystem
 options		NFS			#Network Filesystem
 options		MSDOSFS			#MSDOS Filesystem
Index: i386/conf/LINT
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/src/cvs/src/sys/i386/conf/LINT,v
retrieving revision 1.286.2.19
diff -u -r1.286.2.19 LINT
--- LINT	1997/03/19 03:01:49	1.286.2.19
+++ src/sys/i386/conf/LINT	1997/04/10 08:01:09
@@ -261,6 +261,13 @@
 					# dropped packets
 options		"IPFIREWALL_VERBOSE_LIMIT=100" #limit verbosity
 options		IPDIVERT		#divert sockets
+# new IPFILTER firewall
+# you need to have the src/contrib-sys tree installed to compile
+# kernel support for the in-kernel version
+options		IPFILTER		#in-kernel version
+options		IPFILTER_LKM		#module version
+options		IPFITLER_LOG		#support logging (in-kernel)
+#
 options		TCPDEBUG
 
 
Index: i386/conf/Makefile.i386
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/src/cvs/src/sys/i386/conf/Makefile.i386,v
retrieving revision 1.89.2.2
diff -u -r1.89.2.2 Makefile.i386
--- Makefile.i386	1997/02/14 00:07:52	1.89.2.2
+++ src/sys/i386/conf/Makefile.i386	1997/04/10 08:01:09
@@ -27,7 +27,7 @@
 I386=	${S}/i386
 
 COPTFLAGS?=-O
-INCLUDES= -nostdinc -I- -I. -I$S
+INCLUDES= -nostdinc -I- -I. -I$S -I${.IMPSRC:H}
 # This hack is to allow kernel compiles to succeed on machines w/out srcdist
 .if exists($S/../include)
 INCLUDES+= -I$S/../include
Index: netinet/ip_input.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/src/cvs/src/sys/netinet/ip_input.c,v
retrieving revision 1.50.2.4
diff -u -r1.50.2.4 ip_input.c
--- ip_input.c	1997/02/06 11:33:38	1.50.2.4
+++ src/sys/netinet/ip_input.c	1997/04/10 08:01:09
@@ -37,6 +37,7 @@
 
 #define	_IP_VHL
 
+#include "opt_ipfilter.h"
 #include "opt_ipfw.h"
 
 #include <stddef.h>
@@ -134,6 +135,11 @@
 ip_nat_ctl_t *ip_nat_ctl_ptr;
 #endif
 
+#if defined(IPFILTER_LKM) || defined(IPFILTER)
+int fr_check __P((struct ip *, int, struct ifnet *, int, struct mbuf **));
+int (*fr_checkp) __P((struct ip *, int, struct ifnet *, int, struct mbuf **)) = NULL;
+#endif
+
 /*
  * We need to save the IP options in case a protocol wants to respond
  * to an incoming packet over the same route if the packet got here
@@ -310,7 +316,19 @@
 	 * - Wrap: fake packet's addr/port <unimpl.>
 	 * - Encapsulate: put it in another IP and send out. <unimp.>
  	 */
+#if defined(IPFILTER) || defined(IPFILTER_LKM)
+	/*
+	 * Check if we want to allow this packet to be processed.
+	 * Consider it to be bad if not.
+	 */
+	if (fr_checkp) {
+		struct	mbuf	*m1 = m;
 
+		if ((*fr_checkp)(ip, hlen, m->m_pkthdr.rcvif, 0, &m1) || !m1)
+			return;
+		ip = mtod(m = m1, struct ip *);
+	}
+#endif
 #ifdef COMPAT_IPFW
 	if (ip_fw_chk_ptr) {
 		int action;
Index: netinet/ip_output.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/src/cvs/src/sys/netinet/ip_output.c,v
retrieving revision 1.44.2.4
diff -u -r1.44.2.4 ip_output.c
--- ip_output.c	1997/03/02 19:03:01	1.44.2.4
+++ src/sys/netinet/ip_output.c	1997/04/10 08:06:06
@@ -34,6 +34,9 @@
  *	$Id: ip_output.c,v 1.44.2.4 1997/03/02 19:03:01 fenner Exp $
  */
 
+#include "opt_ipfw.h"
+#include "opt_ipfilter.h"
+
 #define _IP_VHL
 
 #include <sys/param.h>
@@ -75,10 +78,17 @@
 	__P((struct ifnet *, struct mbuf *, struct sockaddr_in *));
 static int	ip_getmoptions
 	__P((int, struct ip_moptions *, struct mbuf **));
-static int	ip_optcopy __P((struct ip *, struct ip *));
 static int	ip_pcbopts __P((struct mbuf **, struct mbuf *));
 static int	ip_setmoptions
 	__P((int, struct ip_moptions **, struct mbuf *));
+#if defined(IPFILTER_LKM) || defined(IPFILTER)
+int	ip_optcopy __P((struct ip *, struct ip *));
+extern int fr_check __P((struct ip *, int, struct ifnet *, int, struct mbuf **));
+extern int (*fr_checkp) __P((struct ip *, int, struct ifnet *, int, struct mbuf **));
+#else
+static int	ip_optcopy __P((struct ip *, struct ip *));
+#endif
+
 
 extern	struct protosw inetsw[];
 
@@ -331,6 +341,20 @@
 	}
 
 sendit:
+#if defined(IPFILTER) || defined(IPFILTER_LKM)
+	/*
+	 * looks like most checking has been done now...do a filter check
+	 */
+	if (fr_checkp) {
+		struct  mbuf    *m1 = m;
+
+		if ((*fr_checkp)(ip, hlen, ifp, 1, &m1))
+			error = EACCES;
+		if (error || !m1)
+			goto done;
+		ip = mtod(m = m1, struct ip *);
+	}
+#endif
         /*
 	 * IpHack's section.
 	 * - Xlate: translate packet's addr/port (NAT).
@@ -559,7 +583,10 @@
  * Copy options from ip to jp,
  * omitting those not copied during fragmentation.
  */
-static int
+#if !defined(IPFILTER) && !defined(IPFILTER_LKM)
+static
+#endif
+int
 ip_optcopy(ip, jp)
 	struct ip *ip, *jp;
 {

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 04:55:05 1997
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        hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: time.h and strptime()
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Josef Grosch wrote:
> 
> >> Solaris and gnu's libc both have a strptime() function in the
> >                                     **********
> >> standard time.h header... Does freebsd have an equivalent anywhere
> >                                                 **********
> >> or will I need to hack one out if I want to use it.
> >
> >This question would be easier to answer if you told it what it does.
> >
> >If it returns a NULL given any time struct at all, you can use this:
> >
> >
> >#define        strptime(timeval)       NULL
> >
> >I kind of doubt that's the behaviour you're looking for?
> >
> >8-|
> 
> I think he meant strftime(3) which we do support.
> 

What about the source code for strptime, which was in
this list some time ago

(Subj: strptime code for msql port)

It must be in archive.

Would it included in libc, libc_r ?

If yes --- in what version (of FreeBSD). ?


> Josef
> 
> --
> Josef Grosch         | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 2.2.1
> jgrosch@FreeGate.net |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 05:21:04 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:08:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
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Well -

 I was just wondering if anyone noticed my reported NFS hanging problems
yesterday...

 I'm wondering if I'm the only person experiencing this problems
(it wouldn't be the first time :-) ), or if other people have
run into them... (I believe Dennis is having them; but can't verify.)

 I'll try and build my own custom kernel today and see if I can
gather more information...

 In the mean time; did anyone ever implement an option that would
force V2?  I looked through the mount_nfs source, seems that V2
is the default unless V3 is turned on; is that right (thus, there
is no need for an option.)

 Finally, if you do have FreeBSD 2.2.1 interoperating in a NFS environment
with Sun's and HP's and what-not; let me know how you accomplished it.

	  - Thanks -
	- Dave Rivers -


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 06:05:56 1997
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From: proff@suburbia.net
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Subject: ipfilter-proff.shar backported to 2.2.1
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:02:01 +1000 (EST)
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I have uploaded an updated version of ipfilter-proff.shar as

	ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.org/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/ipfilter.shar.gz.

This latter version corrects two tiny Makefile bugs (in relation
to man page creation), and adds support for FreeBSD-2.2.

--

I've addressed what I consider all outstanding issues with ipfilter
for FreeBSD as one can without stepping on too many toes. This is a
complete make worldable build system.  /usr/src/contrib/ipfilter
can be, and should be zorched after this shar unpacks (presuming
you were running current).

Unpack the three new source trees and two patch files:

	root@paranoia# cd /usr
	root@paranoia# unshar </tmp/ipfilter.shar

Patch the sys tree - quite tiny really.

  For -current dated on or around Arpil 10 1997:

	root@paranoia# patch <src/sys-ipfilter-proff-current-970310.diff

  For FreeBSD-2.2.1 (and probably 2.2 also)

	root@paranoia# patch <src/sys-ipfilter-proff-2.2.1.diff

If you have have the /usr/src/etc tree:

	root@paranoia# patch <src/etc-ipfilter-proff.diff
	root@paranoia# cp src/etc/etc.i386/MAKEDEV /dev
	root@paranoia# cd /dev
	root@paranoia# ./MAKEDEV ipl ipnat ipstate

else:

	root@paranoia# cd /dev
	root@paranoia# mknod ipl c 79 0
	root@paranoia# mknod ipnat c 79 1
	root@paranoia# mknod ipstate c 79 2

If you use devfs for /dev you can ignore the device creation above -
the new module loading code will do it for you.

Compile and install the user-land code:

	root@paranoia# cd /usr/src/sbin/ipf
	root@paranoia# make && make install

Compile and install the kernel module:

	root@paranoia# cd /usr/src/lkm/if_ipf
	root@paranoia# make && make install

Add the following to your kernel configuration:

	# new IPFILTER firewall
	# you need to have the src/contrib-sys tree installed to compile
	# kernel support for the in-kernel version.
	#options	IPFILTER		#in-kernel version
	options		IPFILTER_LKM		#module version
	options		IPFITLER_LOG		#support logging (in-kernel)

Make sure you have DEVFS support turned on in your kernel configuration,
or you will need to comment out the -DDEVFS in src/lkm/if_ipf/Makefile

If you want the in-kernel version instead (it has no advantage):

  Un-comment:

	#options IPFITLER

  and comment out:

	options IPFITLER_LKM


Re-config(8), recompile, install and boot the new kernel.

If you are running the loadable-module version, load the module:

	root@paranoia# modload /lkm/if_ipf_mod.o

  see if it worked:

	root@paranoia# modstat

If you are running the in-kernel version:

	root@paranoia# dmesg | grep -i ipf

Create some test firewall rules:

	root@paranoia# mkfilters | tee /tmp/basic-filters

Load them in:

	root@paranoia# ipf -f /tmp/basic-filters

Re-examine:

	root@paranoia# ipfstat -i -o

Write some better ones:

	root@paranoia# man 5 ipf


--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 06:10:40 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:09:08 -0400
To: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem UPDATE
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At 10:05 PM 4/9/97 -0400, Thomas David Rivers wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Since reporting that I couldnt do an nfs or ftp load on 2.2.1R with only
>> 8 meg of ram, I've discovered i also cant do it with 12..the symptom being
>> that the system hangs while loading the bin distribution. I've since 
>> discovered that I can load the minimal, binary only and full source
>> distribution, but the kernel developer distribution hangs every time.
>> 
>> Could there be a bug in that selection?
>> 
>> I notice that when I select kernel developer, it also automagically
>> selects user. This never happened in previous releases. Is this
>> supposed to happen? Could there be a problem with an allocation
>> somewhere?
>> 
>> Dennis
>> 
>
> I'm seeing NFS hangs after a system install (see my previous
>reports in the freebsd-hackers list.)  I'm beginning to suspect
>we simply have an NFS bug here and that your problems aren't
>particular to "install time."

Perhaps, but I see exactly the same problem with FTP loads....

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 06:11:48 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:07:42 -0400
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem UPDATE 
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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At 06:34 PM 4/9/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> I notice that when I select kernel developer, it also automagically
>> selects user. This never happened in previous releases. Is this
>> supposed to happen? Could there be a problem with an allocation
>> somewhere?
>
>It's just a change in the way the flags are displayed.  It now shows
>all "qualifying" sets which are selected, some of which are supersets
>of others.  I had to do it this way because of the way you're now
>allowed to go back in and select individual dists via custom to
>augment the "canned" sets.  I wanted to show whenever you had
>*everything* in a canned set selected, regardless of whether other
>larger sets matched the same criteria.
>
>Potentially confusing, yes, but at least it makes sense.  The previous
>scheme was confusing and occasionally made no sense at all (it was
>easy to get it confused about what "set" was really selected and get
>totally erroneous display output).

I thought it made sense initially, but since I cant get it to work
consistently
I wondered about it.....


db
>
>					Jordan
>
>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 06:16:31 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>,
        andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm)
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
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Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 01:12 PM 4/10/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote:
>Andreas Klemm stands accused of saying:
>> > 
>> > A good memory diagnostic is to boot the FreeBSD install; if it fails
>> > in 8M or more, you probably have flakey RAM.  8-).
>> 
>> BSDI comes with a RAM tester as add on utiliy on the BSDI CD.
>> YOu can dd floppy image to floppy, boot from that floppy ...
>
>I tested a pile of RAM testers here at one stage while I was having a
>running brawl with our then-RAM supplier about some memory I knew was
>faulty.
>
>I didn't find a single one that would tell me the memory was busted,
>but it most certainly was.  (They eventually relented, stuck it on
>their tester, said "oh, well it is actually stuffed" and replaced it.
>We shop elsewhere now.)

Blaming "bad ram" is like the doctor telling you you "have a virus" when he
has no
clue what else to tell you.......

If you have real bad ram (a dead pin or a bad location(s)), you get
consistent failures that
go away when you replace the ram or use another machine. If you have
"flakey" ram (bad 
timing, etc) you get random failures and crashes. f you get the same failure
on 2 machines with different ram it ain't the ram.....

db

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 06:31:04 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:31:50 +0300 (EEST)
From: Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net>
Reply-To: stesin@gu.net
To: Stefan Esser <se@freebsd.org>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org, scsi@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2 PCI busses, 2 AIC chips, 2.2.1. Howto ?
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Dear Stefan,

as I told you earlier today,

> 	I'll set up a serial console and send a boot -v
> 	for this box to you this evening.

here it goes.

[... boot prompt, "uncompressing kernel", userconfig, [Q] ...]

avail memory = 61059072 (59628K bytes)
eisa0: <INT3190 (System Board)> 
Probing for devices on the EISA bus
pcibus_setup(1):        mode 1 addr port (0x0cf8) is 0x80007804
pcibus_setup(1a):       mode1res=0x80000000 (0x80000000)
pcibus_check:   device 0 is there (id=12258086)
Probing for devices on PCI bus 0:
        configuration mode 1 allows 32 devices.
chip0 <generic PCI bridge (vendor=8086 device=1225 subclass=0)> rev 2 on \
	pci0:0
vx0 <3COM 3C900 Etherlink XL PCI> rev 0 int a irq 10 on pci0:12
        mapreg[10] type=1 addr=0000ef00 size=0040.
utp/aui/bnc[*utp*]: disable 'auto select' with DOS util! \
	address 00:60:97:25:f7:47
chip1 <Intel 82375EB PCI-EISA bridge> rev 5 on pci0:14:0
pci0:15:0: Intel Corporation, device=0x0008, class=0xff, subclass=0x00 \
	 [no driver assigned]
        map(10): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(14): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(18): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(1c): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(20): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(24): mem32(ffe6fc08)
pci0:15:1: Intel Corporation, device=0x0008, class=0xff, subclass=0x00 \
	[no driver assigned]
        map(10): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(14): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(18): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(1c): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(20): mem32(ffe6fc08)
        map(24): mem32(ffe6fc08)
[... absolutely the same output follows for pci0:15:[2-7] ...]
pci0: uses 64 bytes of I/O space from ef00 upto ef3f.
Probing for devices on the ISA bus:
sc0: the current keyboard controller command byte 0065
kbdio: RESET_KBD return code:00fa
kbdio: RESET_KBD status:00aa
sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard
[... and pretty usual ISA stuff, than sysinstall menu screen ...]




Best regards,
Andrew Stesin

nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 06:31:41 1997
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Subject: Re: ipfilter-proff backported to 2.2.1
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From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" <mishania@demos.su>
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> Replace src/sys-ipfilter-proff.diff after unpacking the

Succeeded with 2.2.1-R "stock", I just reistalled full sources and made it with
your patch. Though, I have few comments:
In this files, are you sure we want if_var.h included with 2.2.1? Since there's
no <net/if_var.h> in 2.2.1, it should read like 

#include <net/if.h>
#if __FreeBSD_version > 220000
# include <net/if_var.h>
# endif

I.e. it might be good to make it ">", not ">=".

/src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_fil.c	optional ipfilter inet
/src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/fil.c		optional ipfilter inet
/src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_nat.c	optional ipfilter inet
/src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_frag.c	optional ipfilter inet
/src/contrib-sys/ipfilter/ip_state.c	optional ipfilter inet

 As for this line, which finally goes to /sys/compile/MACHINE/, are you sure 
about -nostdinc? See, it fails in make depend, since it can't find simple
things like <stddef.h> etc. I saw it _having_ /usr/src/include and /usr/include,
and /usr/include/sys/ is correctly linked.

+INCLUDES= -nostdinc -I- -I. -I$S -I${.IMPSRC:H}
 # This hack is to allow kernel compiles to succeed on machines w/out srcdist


Now it was only 2 warning about redundant redeclaration of `ipfr_slowtimer` in
ip_frag.h, lines 85 and 47 respectively.

Thanks you, 

-mishania




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 07:34:59 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:22:59 +0800 (WST)
From: Adrian Chadd <adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au>
To: Adam David <adam@veda.is>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections
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I'm cvsupping the latest source as we speak :)

I'll look at it tomorrow morning, can anyone else verify this?

(I could take stabs but I won't).

-- 
Adrian Chadd			| UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ...
<adrian@psinet.net.au>		| (also known as the Good, the bad and the
				|				ugly..)




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 07:51:33 1997
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From: proff@suburbia.net
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Subject: detecting kernel version at compile time
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The kernel attempts to build without reference to /usr/include/*.
This means that under normal circumstances <osreldate.h> can not
be included, and one must rely on the #define BSD version_num in
sys/param.h.  However #define BSD version_num only has meaning
insofar as Berkeley release versions are concerned (and under
-current is set to 199506).

What is needed, is <sys/sysreldate.h> file, which

	#defines __FreeBSD_sysversion=kernel_version_num

and is included from sys/param.h. The reason it must be included
from sys/param.h is that there is otherwise no way to conditionally
test for the presence of this file at compile-time using CPP
conditionals without error.

Another benefit is that __FreeBSD_sysversion isn't necessarily
__FreeBSD_version i.e users may update their sys tree more frequently
than the rest (presuming they even have the rest of the source
distribution).

Ability to detect the kernel version at compile time is essential to
adequately support third party modules.

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 08:16:32 1997
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Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970410222123.10030B-100000@obiwan.aceonline.com.au> from Adrian Chadd at "Apr 10, 97 10:22:59 pm"
To: adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au (Adrian Chadd)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:28:06 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> I'm cvsupping the latest source as we speak :)
> 
> I'll look at it tomorrow morning, can anyone else verify this?
> 
> (I could take stabs but I won't).
> 
> -- 
> Adrian Chadd			| UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ...
> <adrian@psinet.net.au>		| (also known as the Good, the bad and the
> 				|				ugly..)

I have seen it most often with telnet/rlogin into the "victim" machine, and
SMTP (and other TCP) connections going weird after 'sh /etc/rc.firewall'
during normal operation.

Adam David <adam@veda.is>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 08:27:11 1997
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     I was trying to see if I could make de0 drop packets
     
     I ran 3 "ping -f"s between different pairs of
     nodes on a shared 10Mbit coax ethernet
     
     xperfmon++ reported ~1500 packets per second, ~700 collisions per 
     second.
     
     netstat -d -I didn't report a single drop
     
     when I used kgdb to watch the send queue, I did not ever see any
     accumulation of data
     
     all this under 2.1.0 (p5-133, smc etherpower combo)
     
     My question, is it possible to load down the de0 send queue at all, 
     and if so, under what conditions?  
     
     
     



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 09:05:12 1997
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199704101514.RAA16697@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Problem with Trio64V+ rev. 541 and XFree863.2/3.2.A
To: XFree86@XFree86.Org
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:14:48 +0200 (MET DST)
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Hi,

I am having a problem in using the XFree86 (3.1.2, 3.2, 3.2.A) with
my new S3 card under FreeBSD. The card is recognised by the XF86_S3
server (3.2) as

    (--) S3: PCI: Trio32/64 rev 54, Linear FB @ 0xec000000
    (--) S3: chipset:   Trio64V+ rev. 541
    (--) S3: chipset driver: newmmio
    (--) S3: card type: PCI

but then I get the following two error messages:

    S3: Cannot read colourmap from VGA.  Will restore with default
    S3: Cannot read colourmap from VGA.  Will restore with default

and, when exiting X, the screen becomes totally black (although the
system is up and running, and I can restart X or do other commands at
will.

Other than that, X seems to work well and the image is pretty stable.

Any idea on what might be the problem, and how to fix it (maybe with
some option in XF86Config ?)

	Thanks
	Luigi Rizzo
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 09:05:27 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:04:48 -0500
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Howdy folks,

I've been tricked into upgrading the linux_lib port, so
if you've got any libraries you'd like to see incorporated
send me pointers to 'em now, or wait for the next go-round.

eric.
-- 
erich@lodgenet.com
http://rrnet.com/~erich erich@rrnet.com




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 10:04:46 1997
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Subject: Re: ipfilter/2.2.1 / devfs (general)
To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:42:55 -0700 (MST)
Cc: mishania@demos.su, proff@suburbia.net, hackers@freebsd.org
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> Ifdefed options are fundamentally incompatible with LKMs.  This means
> that LKMs must not use nonstandard options like DEVFS, except possibly
> if you keep the LKMs carefully synchronised with the kernel.

And this is a problem with #ifdef'ed options, not with LKM's.


> The IPFILTER and IPFILTER_LKM options are more of a problem than DEVFS
> because they affect standard objects (ip_input.o and ip_output.o).  A
> GENERIC kernel can't possibly support an ipfilter LKM since GENERIC
> isn't configured with these options.  The corresponding problem for
> ipfw is handled by using a negative option - COMPAT_IPFW defaults to 1.

This has more to do with what should and should not be replaceable
with a function point; it has more to do with the organization of
the network code than with IPFILTER/IPFW.  If you could replace the
function entirely, it wouldn't need the #ifdef's.


> The corresponding problem for file systems is very old and usually
> not worried about.   The union filesystem can't be an LKM because of
> a couple of `#ifdef UNION's in "machine-independent" code.  The ext2fs
> filesystem can't be an LKM because of many `#ifdef EXT2FS's in ufs.

The UNION stuff is a result of an incorrect implementation of the
getdirentries() code in kern/vfs_syscalls.c, and a corresponding
bogosity in the iplementation of the union specific VOP_READDIR().

It is the inability to agregate cookie values from two or more file
systems that makes the union_readdir() broken.  The inability to
agregate, in turn, comes from the use of a user buffer for the cookie
copies.  VOP_READDIR() needs an overhaul, and to be split into two
(or perhaps even more) seperate VOP operations.


The EXT2FS code, is, from what I can see, compile time dependent, not
implementation time dependent.  If you look at the Lite2 CD9660 code,
there are rumblings of ntegrating that into the UFS stuff as well, on
the same basis.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 10:33:04 1997
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Gary Palmer wrote:
> 
> "Julian H. Stacey" wrote in message ID
> <199704091733.TAA08869@desk.jhs.no_domain>:
> > I had assumed you meant Elischer, but Gary Jennejohn (there are at least
> > 3 Garys) told me you didn't mean Elischer, so maybe you meant Jenkins or
> > Assange, or another new Julian ?
> 
> There are WAY more than three Garys these, days, and everytime I read
> a mail which blames a `Gary' for something I have to stop and think
> ``was that me??''. It's enough to make a guy insecure!
> 
> (Reply-To: set appropriately)
> 
> Gary
> --
> Gary Palmer                                          FreeBSD Core Team Member
> FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info

I've never been in a group with mor ethan 1 julian before..
it's kind of unique to have 3.5 of us floating around..


:)
julian (E)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 10:38:38 1997
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From: "Malcolm newton" <mnewton@newland.com>
To: "hackers" <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Bad speed on modem connected to isdn pot
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:39:14 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01BC45B4.94912020
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I have a 28.8 modem attached to the analog side of a 64kb isdn line. The =
getty is set at 57600. On incoming calls I get tty-level buffer =
overflows.
I think its becaus the 64kb isdn line when converted to analog is =
transmitting at 64k
and 57600 is not fast enough for it. I've bumped it up to 115200 but =
that doesn't work
Whats the next valid speed that would cope with 64k.  is 65536 a valid =
speed. The modem works fine on a regular bell line ??


------=_NextPart_000_01BC45B4.94912020
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"Trident 4.71.0544.0"' name=3DGENERATOR>

</HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have a 28.8 modem attached to the =
analog side of a=20
64kb isdn line. The getty is set at 57600. On incoming calls I get =
tty-level=20
buffer overflows.</FONT>

<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think its becaus the 64kb isdn line =
when converted=20
to analog is transmitting at 64k</FONT>

<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and 57600 is not fast enough for it. I've =
bumped it=20
up to 115200 but that doesn't work</FONT>

<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Whats the next valid speed that would =
cope with 64k. =20
is 65536 a valid speed. The modem works fine on a regular bell line=20
??</FONT></P>

</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_01BC45B4.94912020--


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 11:11:16 1997
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Getting HUPCL to reset the port...
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:10:40 -0400
From: Brian McGovern <bmcgover@cisco.com>
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Can anyone fill me in on the mechanism used for the sio driver to
reset the port when the carrier is dropped. I'm working on a similar
driver, and I need to build in something similar so if I drop carrier
to the port, the system catches it, and resets. Thanks.
	-Brian

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 11:37:26 1997
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To: "'Malcolm newton'" <mnewton@newland.com>,
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	 <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: RE: Bad speed on modem connected to isdn pot
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:34:27 -0500
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Could it be that your serial port is a 8550UART ? and therefore, cannot
handle more thatn 9600 reliably ?

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Malcolm newton [SMTP:mnewton@newland.com]
>Sent:	Thursday, April 10, 1997 12:39 PM
>To:	hackers
>Subject:	Bad speed on modem connected to isdn pot
>
>I have a 28.8 modem attached to the analog side of a 64kb isdn line.
>The getty is set at 57600. On incoming calls I get tty-level buffer
>overflows.
>I think its becaus the 64kb isdn line when converted to analog is
>transmitting at 64k
>and 57600 is not fast enough for it. I've bumped it up to 115200 but
>that doesn't work
>Whats the next valid speed that would cope with 64k.  is 65536 a valid
>speed. The modem works fine on a regular bell line ??
> << File: ATT00335.html >> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 12:51:47 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 12:50:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: proff@suburbia.net, Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>,
        msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, sef@kithrup.com,
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
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On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> > The design principals behind /etc are heading in the right direction
> > but seem to lack vision.  Jordon, call me an engineering psychopath,
> 
> It's "Jordan" and ok, you're an engineering psychopath. ;-)

yippee for engineering psychopaths!
 
> > but it is my belief that FreeBSD should attempt to adopt a file-system
> > organisation whereby after the system is installed, write access
> > can be removed completely from the root and /usr because any
> > configuration changes do not require modification of any of these
> > partitions. Upgrades, re-installation and protection against trojans
> > then become trivial.
> 
> The problem is that the minute you start removing things from /etc and
> putting them in their more "logical" places, the learning curve for
> existing UNIX admins goes up and this too is "cost."
>
> However, if you were to say that everything in /etc should depend on a
> single writable configuration file, I wouldn't argue with the
> principle (and it's what I had in mind for /etc/sysconfig) but simply
> point to the fact that "everyone" knows about files like
> /etc/resolv.conf too, and if you put "domain=blah.com" and
> "resolver1=foo .. resolvern=bar" lines into /etc/sysconfig and
> made resolv.conf redundant (or removed it) there would be a lot of
> confusion.

	yah, but one could leave these files in /etc and then write into
the comments part of the file that this file is ( or more reasonably,
going to be ) deprecated. One could then leave the files in /etc/ in
perpetuity as simple readmes that point to /etc/sysconfig

	i think the idea has merit, but gets into the "we are BSD, dammit"
argument. i dont have an opinion one way or the other, other than to point
out that some day there will be more linux and *BSD administrators than
"cost money unix" administrators, so this argument about existing
implementation similarity will become moot.
 
> 					Jordan
> 

*******************************************************************************
 John Utz	spaz@u.washington.edu
	idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 13:28:42 1997
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From: "Jason Hudgins" <hudginsj@smtp.dancooks.com>
Organization: Dan Cook's Inc.
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> > I think he meant strftime(3) which we do support.

Not strftime(), this is a strptime(), which is a complementary 
function to strftime..

strftime() takes a tm struct and a pointer to a string 
and spits out a date string specified by a user supplied format 
ex: Aug-12-1995

strptime() takes a string like this and parses it..then
fills in a tm struct...exactly the reverse of strftime.

I was in the process of writing it myself, and then some
nice soul just mailed me the proposed strptime source..THANKS!
That just saved me several hours of toil.  Plus its MUCH cleaner
that gnu's strptime.c  ..I gave up trying to port it because it
was a hacked up piece of dung.

Thanks,
  Jason Hudgins
 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 13:47:35 1997
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:27:20 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au,
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> > > If you are taking your 2.2.1 sources and patching them to -STABLE,
> > > you upgrade /etc/ like anyone else with source does.
> > 
> > Contestant #1:	That would be "By hand" for an hour, Bob...
> > Bob:		Ab-So-LUTE-Ly Right!
> 
> Ah, about five minutes.  Especially if you're the neat sort that makes
> notes.

Don't add assumtions.  Most FreeBSD installers are the messy types
who install directly off the CDROM (or the net), and take the defaults,
to start with.

Then they hack the configuration (and sometimes the kernel) to get
around whatever FreeBSD shortcomings interfere with their intended use.


> > Is this true?  It's not how I remember it...  are you saying that if
> > I modified init for rc.d style operation and run states, that the
> > change in operation would be acceptable for integration?
> 
> If you were to do it in such a fashion that it was optional, ie.
> people who actually liked the way that BSD does it now could still
> have that, then yes, I believe it would.  (Stuffs rabid anti-sysv-ists
> into sack, adds rocks, pushes into canal.)

Well, I believe patches were supplied before by someone else.  If I
can't find them anywhere, I'll recreate them (or get them from one of
the other BSD's?) and we'll see...


> > > You are detracting from a practically achievable solution by claiming to
> > > advocate a solution that is not workable within the current constraints.
> > 
> > So modify the constraints.  8-).
> 
> Give me the money.  Wire my eyes open.  You get the picture 8)

I happen to like Beethoven's 9th... 8-).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 13:50:38 1997
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:29:18 -0700 (MST)
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> > > > If you are taking your 2.2.1 sources and patching them to -STABLE,
> > > > you upgrade /etc/ like anyone else with source does.
> > > 
> > > Contestant #1:	That would be "By hand" for an hour, Bob...
> > > Bob:		Ab-So-LUTE-Ly Right!
> > 
> > Ah, about five minutes.  Especially if you're the neat sort that makes
> > notes.
> 
> Heck, even if you don't take notes, it's pretty easy if you know what
> you're doing.  I upgraded the /etc files on Sean's box in about 15
> minutes, and I've *NEVER* seen his box nor his configuration ever
> before.

The point is to embed the knowledge in the software, not in the people
who administer it, so that you can replace the people who administer
it when they make fun of your pointy hair and strangely dog-like consultant.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 13:57:11 1997
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Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2 PCI busses, 2 AIC chips, 2.2.1. Howto ?
References: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970410104207.2999k-100000@trifork.gu.net> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970410154909.9628N-100000@trifork.gu.net>
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On Apr 10, Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net> wrote:
> 
> Dear Stefan,
> 
> as I told you earlier today,
> 
> > 	I'll set up a serial console and send a boot -v
> > 	for this box to you this evening.
> 
> here it goes.

Thanks ...

> [... boot prompt, "uncompressing kernel", userconfig, [Q] ...]
> 
> avail memory = 61059072 (59628K bytes)
> eisa0: <INT3190 (System Board)> 
> Probing for devices on the EISA bus

No devices on EISA ?
You could try to increase the number of EISA slots probed
(from within userconfig ??? I never had to deal with EISA)

> Probing for devices on PCI bus 0:
>         configuration mode 1 allows 32 devices.
> chip0 <generic PCI bridge (vendor=8086 device=1225 subclass=0)> rev 2 on \
> 	pci0:0
> vx0 <3COM 3C900 Etherlink XL PCI> rev 0 int a irq 10 on pci0:12

The CPU to PCI bridge and an Ethernet adapter are found on
PCI bus 0. The probe obviously works. If no furter PCI to 
PCI bridge is found, then there isn't any !

>         mapreg[10] type=1 addr=0000ef00 size=0040.
> utp/aui/bnc[*utp*]: disable 'auto select' with DOS util! \
> 	address 00:60:97:25:f7:47
> chip1 <Intel 82375EB PCI-EISA bridge> rev 5 on pci0:14:0
> pci0:15:0: Intel Corporation, device=0x0008, class=0xff, subclass=0x00 \

I couldn't find any information about devices 0x0008 and
0x1225, yet. Any ideas, what these might be ???

Regards, STefan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 13:57:59 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704102035.NAA09602@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:35:18 -0700 (MST)
Cc: proff@suburbia.net, nate@mt.sri.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        terry@lambert.org, sef@kithrup.com, hackers@freebsd.org
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> The problem is that the minute you start removing things from /etc and
> putting them in their more "logical" places, the learning curve for
> existing UNIX admins goes up and this too is "cost."

Are we trying to detract from other UNIX implementations by wooing their
sysadmins, or are we trying to detract from NT by wooing NT sysadmins?

In the trade between "logically complete" and "copletely logical",
you should go after whichever segment is larger (hint: NT).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 14:01:17 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704102041.NAA09631@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:41:41 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704101018.DAA27158@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Darren Reed" at Apr 10, 97 08:12:26 pm
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> Is the 430TX chipset recognised/supported yet ?

Is this a PCI chipset?

PCI chipsets are configured at BIOS POST time.

You do not need chipset specific drivers.

The SMP stuff wants chipset specific drivers because it wants to count
bridges on machines with broken MP-tables in ROM/RAM/FLASH counts of
the number of PCI bridges (so far: one motherboard vendor).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 14:04:34 1997
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Subject: ipfilter-proff-final.shar.gz
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:03:42 +1000 (EST)
Cc: security@freebsd.org
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ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/ipfilter-proff-final.shar.gz (112k)

I'm done. I've tested this release fairly heavily under both -current
and 2.2.1 and am happy with it. I have heavy time contraints for
the next few weeks/months, and I know avalon is facing similar
difficulties. I'm handing over the torch to another bearer.

This is what remains to be done (CVS maintence only -- those just
wanting to use the code don't need to worry about any of this) is:

	 1) A new cvs module src/contrib-sys needs to be created
	 2) src/sys-contrib/ipfilter needs to be imported as
	    a new vendor branch (I'm gambling that all my changes
	    in that tree or some currupted variant thereof will
	    make it into Darren's public release :)
 	 3) src/sbin/ipf and src/lkm/if_ipf need to be imported.
	 4) src/sys/netinet/{fil.c,ip_compat.h,ip_fil.[ch],ip_frag.[ch],
	    ip_nat.[ch],ip_state.[ch]} can be Attic'ed :)
	 5) src/contrib/ipfilter can be zorched

-Julian

# This archive contains:
#
#	src/ipfilter-proff-README
#	src/etc-ipfilter-proff.diff
#	src/sys-ipfilter-proff-2.2.1.diff
#	src/sys-ipfilter-proff-current-970411.diff
#	src/contrib-sys
#	src/contrib-sys/ipfilter
[...]
#	src/lkm/if_ipf
#	src/lkm/if_ipf/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipfstat
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipfstat/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipftest
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipftest/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/Makefile.inc
#	src/sbin/ipf/mkfilters
#	src/sbin/ipf/mkfilters/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipf
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipf/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipmon
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipmon/Makefile
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipnat
#	src/sbin/ipf/ipnat/Makefile
#
[...]
XUnpack the three new source trees and two patch files:
X
X	root@paranoia# cd /usr
X	root@paranoia# unshar </tmp/ipfilter.shar
X
XPatch the sys tree - quite tiny really.
X
X  For -current dated on or around Arpil 11 1997:
X
X	root@paranoia# patch <src/sys-ipfilter-proff-current-970411.diff
X
X  For FreeBSD-2.2.1 (and probably 2.2 also)
X
X	root@paranoia# patch <src/sys-ipfilter-proff-2.2.1.diff
X
XIf you have have the /usr/src/etc tree:
X
X	root@paranoia# patch <src/etc-ipfilter-proff.diff
X	root@paranoia# cp src/etc/etc.i386/MAKEDEV /dev
X	root@paranoia# cd /dev
X	root@paranoia# ./MAKEDEV ipl ipnat ipstate
X
Xelse:
X
X	root@paranoia# cd /dev
X	root@paranoia# mknod ipl c 79 0
X	root@paranoia# mknod ipnat c 79 1
X	root@paranoia# mknod ipstate c 79 2
X
XIf you use devfs for /dev you can ignore the device creation above -
Xthe new module loading code will do it for you.
X
XCompile and install the user-land code:
X
X	root@paranoia# cd /usr/src/sbin/ipf
X	root@paranoia# make && make install
X
XCompile and install the kernel module:
X
X	root@paranoia# cd /usr/src/lkm/if_ipf
X	root@paranoia# make && make install
X
XAdd the following to your kernel configuration:
X
X	# new IPFILTER firewall
X	# you need to have the src/contrib-sys tree installed to compile
X	# kernel support for the in-kernel version.
X	#options	IPFILTER		#in-kernel version
X	options		IPFILTER_LKM		#module version
X	options		IPFITLER_LOG		#support logging (in-kernel)
X
XMake sure you have DEVFS support turned on in your kernel configuration,
Xor you will need to comment out the -DDEVFS in src/lkm/if_ipf/Makefile
X
XIf you want the in-kernel version instead (it has no advantage):
X
X  Un-comment:
X
X	#options IPFITLER
X
X  and comment out:
X
X	options IPFITLER_LKM
X
X
XRe-config(8), recompile, install and boot the new kernel.
X
XIf you are running the loadable-module version, load the module:
X
X	root@paranoia# modload /lkm/if_ipf_mod.o
X
X  see if it worked:
X
X	root@paranoia# modstat
X
XIf you are running the in-kernel version:
X
X	root@paranoia# dmesg | grep -i ipf
X
XCreate some test firewall rules:
X
X	root@paranoia# mkfilters | tee /tmp/basic-filters
X
XLoad them in:
X
X	root@paranoia# ipf -f /tmp/basic-filters
X
XRe-examine:
X
X	root@paranoia# ipfstat -i -o
X
XWrite some better ones:
X
X	root@paranoia# man 5 ipf

--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 14:10:34 1997
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Message-Id: <199704102048.NAA09648@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem FOUND
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:48:45 -0700 (MST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, terry@lambert.org,
        hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970410091311.006a8f8c@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 10, 97 09:13:13 am
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> Blaming "bad ram" is like the doctor telling you you "have a virus" when he
> has no
> clue what else to tell you.......
> 
> If you have real bad ram (a dead pin or a bad location(s)), you get
> consistent failures that
> go away when you replace the ram or use another machine. If you have
> "flakey" ram (bad 
> timing, etc) you get random failures and crashes. f you get the same failure
> on 2 machines with different ram it ain't the ram.....

Unless you are running the RAM at or below rated value because your
OS software is slow, not because the jumper settings on your machine
are corect.

Then if you upgrade and run a faster OS, you will have to worry about
your jumper settings being wrong, where before you didn't have to
worry (even though they were wrong before).

So it's possible to have two machines fail on a new release when they
weren't failing on the previous release, and have the reason be the
RAM.

In general, this can be tested by jumpering more wait states and/or
reducing bus mastering controller's bus-on-time, if it's a tunable.


However, the failures you are getting are  loking more and more like
problems with the install software.

Have you tried the "new kernel replacement procedure" to get the new
kernel on the boot disk, but the old install process from one of the
working disks, so you can say for sure if it's the kernel or the
install software that's failing?  If it's the kernel, I'd suggest
trying additional wait states if you don't have 60ns or better RAM.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 14:11:06 1997
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Message-Id: <199704102050.NAA09662@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:50:29 -0700 (MST)
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In-Reply-To: <19970410145051.7205.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Apr 11, 97 00:50:50 am
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> Another benefit is that __FreeBSD_sysversion isn't necessarily
> __FreeBSD_version i.e users may update their sys tree more frequently
> than the rest (presuming they even have the rest of the source
> distribution).
> 
> Ability to detect the kernel version at compile time is essential to
> adequately support third party modules.

I agree... why is it that you always come up with good ideas?  8-).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 14:17:39 1997
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: spaz@u.washington.edu (John Utz)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 13:54:32 -0700 (MST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, proff@suburbia.net, nate@mt.sri.com,
        msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, sef@kithrup.com,
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[ ... moving crap out of multiple config files on a writable root ... ]

> 	i think the idea has merit, but gets into the "we are BSD, dammit"
> argument. i dont have an opinion one way or the other, other than to point
> out that some day there will be more linux and *BSD administrators than
> "cost money unix" administrators, so this argument about existing
> implementation similarity will become moot.

#undef CSRG


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 14:34:31 1997
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	Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:35:23 +0300 (EEST)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:35:23 +0300 (EEST)
From: Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net>
Reply-To: stesin@gu.net
To: Stefan Esser <se@freebsd.org>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2 PCI busses, 2 AIC chips, 2.2.1. Howto ?
In-Reply-To: <19970410225658.64714@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de>
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On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Stefan Esser wrote:

> Thanks ...

	Don't mention.

> > avail memory = 61059072 (59628K bytes)
> > eisa0: <INT3190 (System Board)> 
> > Probing for devices on the EISA bus
> 
> No devices on EISA ?

	Yep. There are none at this particular box.
	Another one had some (there are two of them).

> > Probing for devices on PCI bus 0:
> >         configuration mode 1 allows 32 devices.
> > chip0 <generic PCI bridge (vendor=8086 device=1225 subclass=0)> rev 2 on \
> > 	pci0:0
> > vx0 <3COM 3C900 Etherlink XL PCI> rev 0 int a irq 10 on pci0:12
> 
> The CPU to PCI bridge and an Ethernet adapter are found on
> PCI bus 0. The probe obviously works. If no furter PCI to 
> PCI bridge is found, then there isn't any !

	Sorry but there IS one... and two AIC chips on it they
	aren'r recognized by FreeBSD.  Linux finds them.

> >         mapreg[10] type=1 addr=0000ef00 size=0040.
> > utp/aui/bnc[*utp*]: disable 'auto select' with DOS util! \
> > 	address 00:60:97:25:f7:47
> > chip1 <Intel 82375EB PCI-EISA bridge> rev 5 on pci0:14:0
> > pci0:15:0: Intel Corporation, device=0x0008, class=0xff, subclass=0x00 \
> 
> I couldn't find any information about devices 0x0008 and
> 0x1225, yet. Any ideas, what these might be ???

	Those XPC and XPD chips I mentioned before...
	Might they be?

> 
> Regards, STefan
> 

Best regards,
Andrew Stesin

nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 14:49:16 1997
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To: proff@suburbia.net
cc: nate@mt.sri.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org,
        sef@kithrup.com, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:52:44 +1000."
             <19970410085245.11057.qmail@suburbia.net> 
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:46:33 -0700
Message-ID: <1527.860708793@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> A reliable union layer would solve all these cases where one has
> a standard "template" file that may or may not receive modification.

And that's where you lost me.  I was more interested in real solutions,
Julian. :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 14:57:55 1997
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To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
cc: proff@suburbia.net, nate@mt.sri.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        terry@lambert.org, sef@kithrup.com, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Apr 1997 09:03:37 +0200."
             <199704100703.JAA15863@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> 
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:55:59 -0700
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> how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is

I'm starting to get a headache. :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 15:43:06 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:36:05 +0200
From: Harald Koenig <root@tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Cc: XFree86@XFree86.Org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Problem with Trio64V+ rev. 541 and XFree863.2/3.2.A
References: <199704101514.RAA16697@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
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On Apr 10, Luigi Rizzo wrote:

> I am having a problem in using the XFree86 (3.1.2, 3.2, 3.2.A) with
> my new S3 card under FreeBSD. The card is recognised by the XF86_S3
> server (3.2) as

which FreeBSD version ?
please send a *full* server output

> but then I get the following two error messages:
> 
>     S3: Cannot read colourmap from VGA.  Will restore with default
>     S3: Cannot read colourmap from VGA.  Will restore with default

it's a warning; should be no real problem.

> and, when exiting X, the screen becomes totally black (although the
> system is up and running, and I can restart X or do other commands at
> will.
> 
> Other than that, X seems to work well and the image is pretty stable.
> 
> Any idea on what might be the problem, and how to fix it (maybe with
> some option in XF86Config ?)

if using another text mode is an option, you should try.
up to 3.2A there was a bug in not restoring one register for text mode
which can cause this problem in rare cases.

or you can get the XFree86 3.2 sources, apply the patch below and
build a fixed server binary...
if you're interested, please get the XFree86 3.2 server-only sources (X32servonly.tgz,  
read README in the same directory about necessary changes to xc/config/cf/xf86site.def!!!).


Harald


--- xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/accel/s3/s3init.c.orig	Mon Oct 21 07:27:24 1996
+++ xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/accel/s3/s3init.c	Thu Mar 13 12:31:07 1997
@@ -811,8 +811,9 @@
 #endif
       }
 
-      outb(vgaCRIndex, 0x11);	/* allow writting? */
-      outb(vgaCRReg, 0x00);
+      outb(vgaCRIndex, 0x11);	/* allow writting to CR0-7 */
+      tmp = inb(vgaCRReg);
+      outb(vgaCRReg, tmp & 0x7f);
       for (i = 0; i < 16; i++) {
 	 outb(vgaCRIndex, 0x40 + i);
 	 oldS3->s3sysreg[i] = inb(vgaCRReg);
@@ -3275,7 +3276,8 @@
    outb(vgaCRReg, tmp & 0xf0);
    cebank();
 
-   outb(vgaCRIndex, 0x11);		/* allow writting? */
-   outb(vgaCRReg, 0x00);
+   outb(vgaCRIndex, 0x11);		/* allow writting to CR0-7 */
+   tmp = inb(vgaCRReg);
+   outb(vgaCRReg, tmp & 0x7f);
 
 }
--- xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/accel/s3/s3.c.orig	Sun Sep 29 15:34:02 1996
+++ xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/accel/s3/s3.c	Thu Mar 13 12:31:07 1997
@@ -863,8 +863,9 @@
    vgaCRIndex = vgaIOBase + 4;
    vgaCRReg = vgaIOBase + 5;
 
-   outb(vgaCRIndex, 0x11);	/* for register CR11, (Vertical Retrace End) */
-   outb(vgaCRReg, 0x00);		/* set to 0 */
+   outb(vgaCRIndex, 0x11);	/* for register CR11 */
+   tmp = inb(vgaCRReg);         /* enable CR0-7 and disable interrupts */
+   outb(vgaCRReg, tmp & 0x0f);
 
    outb(vgaCRIndex, 0x38);		/* check if we have an S3 */
    outb(vgaCRReg, 0x00);


--
All SCSI disks will from now on                     ___       _____
be required to send an email notice                0--,|    /OOOOOOO\
24 hours prior to complete hardware failure!      <_/  /  /OOOOOOOOOOO\
                                                    \  \/OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\
                                                      \ OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|//
Harald Koenig,                                         \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Inst.f.Theoret.Astrophysik                              //  /     \\  \
koenig@tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de                     ^^^^^       ^^^^^

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 15:53:22 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:47:09 +1000 (EST)
Cc: proff@suburbia.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199704102050.NAA09662@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 10, 97 01:50:29 pm
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In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
> 
> > Another benefit is that __FreeBSD_sysversion isn't necessarily
> > __FreeBSD_version i.e users may update their sys tree more frequently
> > than the rest (presuming they even have the rest of the source
> > distribution).
> > 
> > Ability to detect the kernel version at compile time is essential to
> > adequately support third party modules.
> 
> I agree... why is it that you always come up with good ideas?  8-).

To quote Jordan "this is giving me a headache".

As one of those third party developers, I don't have time for this
constantly changing crap.

You are deceiving yourselves if you think you are just making life
easier for everyone.  Any change implies more work from 3rd party
developers to accomodate that change.

That work is probably many times what you perceive it to be because 3rd
party developers have to incorporate the new with the old and still keep
everything working.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 15:54:52 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:48:44 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704102041.NAA09631@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 10, 97 01:41:41 pm
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In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
> 
> > Is the 430TX chipset recognised/supported yet ?
> 
> Is this a PCI chipset?

Yes, the "latest" from Intel (advertised as faster than HX and VX).


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 16:06:28 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections
To: adam@veda.is (Adam David)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 08:56:59 +1000 (EST)
Cc: adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704101528.PAA09496@veda.is> from "Adam David" at Apr 10, 97 03:28:06 pm
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In some mail from Adam David, sie said:
> 
> > I'm cvsupping the latest source as we speak :)
> > 
> > I'll look at it tomorrow morning, can anyone else verify this?
> > 
> > (I could take stabs but I won't).
> > 
> > -- 
> > Adrian Chadd			| UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ...
> > <adrian@psinet.net.au>		| (also known as the Good, the bad and the
> > 				|				ugly..)
> 
> I have seen it most often with telnet/rlogin into the "victim" machine, and
> SMTP (and other TCP) connections going weird after 'sh /etc/rc.firewall'
> during normal operation.

guess: ipfw flush doesn't close any connections but the resulting state of
ipfw after the flush causes all connection info to be lost, resulting in
packets not being forwarded properly and the connection closed,.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 16:16:39 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704102256.PAA10047@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:56:07 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, proff@suburbia.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199704102253.PAA12112@coyote.Artisoft.COM> from "Darren Reed" at Apr 11, 97 08:47:09 am
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> In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
> > 
> > > Another benefit is that __FreeBSD_sysversion isn't necessarily
> > > __FreeBSD_version i.e users may update their sys tree more frequently
> > > than the rest (presuming they even have the rest of the source
> > > distribution).
> > > 
> > > Ability to detect the kernel version at compile time is essential to
> > > adequately support third party modules.
> > 
> > I agree... why is it that you always come up with good ideas?  8-).
> 
> To quote Jordan "this is giving me a headache".
> 
> As one of those third party developers, I don't have time for this
> constantly changing crap.
> 
> You are deceiving yourselves if you think you are just making life
> easier for everyone.  Any change implies more work from 3rd party
> developers to accomodate that change.


Then you are lucky that this is an informational change, and not one
that implies an interface change, and therefore work for third party
developers...


> That work is probably many times what you perceive it to be because 3rd
> party developers have to incorporate the new with the old and still keep
> everything working.

I'm aware of how a third party developer can put the "backword" into
"backward compatability"...

This particular change only allows the developer to do that, not the
other way around.

Read the original message which I responded to again: the change is
to make a third party module stay working in the face of other changes,
and to diagnose why it doesn't work in the case of a conflicting change.
It won't affect the operation of third party modules.

Though it would be smart if third party developers specified a version
stamp (generally for a release) under which their stuff is *expected* to
work.  Unfortunately, you can't do that in the face of CVSup (unless
this change is adopted and you check the value -- you don't *have* to
check the value -- you can load anyway and crash newer kernels instead,
if you want, like the star_saver_mod...).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 16:31:00 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:36:14 +1000 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
cc: Adam David <adam@veda.is>, adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au,
        hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote:

> > I have seen it most often with telnet/rlogin into the "victim" machine, and
> > SMTP (and other TCP) connections going weird after 'sh /etc/rc.firewall'
> > during normal operation.
> 
> guess: ipfw flush doesn't close any connections but the resulting state of
> ipfw after the flush causes all connection info to be lost, resulting in
> packets not being forwarded properly and the connection closed,.

This is exactly right.  I have already committed changes to add the -q 
flag so that ipfw -q flush does not report the flush.

>From the 2.2-RELEASE man page:

     -q    While adding or flushing, be quiet about actions.  This is useful
           for adjusting rules across a remote login session.  If a flush is
           performed in verbose mode, it prints a message.  Because all rules
           are flushed, the message cannot be delivered to the login session,
           the login session is closed and the remainder of the ruleset is not
           processed.  Access to the console is required to recover.

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 16:35:47 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:29:35 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704102256.PAA10047@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 10, 97 03:56:07 pm
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In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
> 
> Then you are lucky that this is an informational change, and not one
> that implies an interface change, and therefore work for third party
> developers...

Lets see...firstly, there is <osreldate.h> which is particular to FreeBSD.
Including that file always requires #ifdef's for FreeBSD.  Now you want
to introduce <sys/osreldate.h>.  That is going to be conditional on what
is in <osreldate.h>.  THen code which currently checks for __FreeBSD_version
must be adapted to see if __FreeBSD_sysversion exists.

Why weren't __FreeBSD_version & __FreeBSD_sysversion (IF you need both) put
in <sys/param.h> ?  For starters, one doesn't need to worry about extra
include files, although removing <osreldate.h> would not be good, now.

Whilst it may not be an interface change, it is a change which tells us
about which interface is present.

Further still, there is the uselessness of __FreeBSD__ in some circumstances.

Although it may be defined and have a numeric value, it can have a value
totally unrelated to which version of the OS it is.

To my mind, mixing kernel versions with different "userland" versions is
a mistake.  At this point in time, FreeBSD is a single combined product,
both kernel and userland, distinct from other OS's such as Linux which
have a very separate Kernel & userland components.  From this, I'd argue
that __FreeBSD_version is sufficient and that encouragement for kernel &
userland "skew" isn't wise (unless libkvm and other things in the kernel
access by user programs NEVER change).

[...]
> Though it would be smart if third party developers specified a version
> stamp (generally for a release) under which their stuff is *expected* to
> work.  Unfortunately, you can't do that in the face of CVSup (unless
> this change is adopted and you check the value -- you don't *have* to
> check the value -- you can load anyway and crash newer kernels instead,
> if you want, like the star_saver_mod...).

Well, let me give you some more of my thoughts.

Once I have IP Filter working on a particular version of FreeBSD, there
are usually no more problems with that rev.

However, for the next n months, I get people asking "when will it work
on -CURRENT ?" or "when will it work on X.Y-STABLE ?", etc.

Personally, I refuse to even atempt to support anything that isn't marked
as a "release" (and available on CD-ROm if I can :).


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 16:40:14 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:39:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Phil Gilley <pgilley@metronet.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Defender 1000
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Has anyone had any success getting a Defender 1000 working with
FreeBSD 2.1.7-RELEASE on an ASUS motherboard (using the on board
serial ports) and a USR Courier modem?  After callback, the
DTE/Terminal speed doesn't want to work at anything but 9600
baud even though I have getty configured for 38400 (the maximum
the Defender supports).  I had this working for years on an old
Sparc 2, but FreeBSD just isn't happy with it.

Phil Gilley
pgilley@metronet.com



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 16:40:45 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:42:51 -0600
From: Scott Brown <skb@icey.com>
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Subject: Installation question (2.2.1)
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Can I install 2.2.1 directly from an Iomega Zip-parallel drive?

Once installed, will the system support that drive?

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:02:25 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:02:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@cold.org>
To: freebsd-hackers@freeBSD.org
Subject: sysadmin interface suggestion
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Just a thought, which I think would help simplify things a touch for
people administrating many different FreeBSD boxes (which I do).
Basically, have /etc/devices, which is simply a map of what 'standard'
devices are actually what 'real' devices, and have the VERY FIRST action
of /etc/rc be to softlink all of the standard devices to the real devices?
The file could be something simple like:

video    ttyv0
kbd      ttyv0
net      ed0
mouse    ttyd1
[...]

Then just drop the code at the top of /etc/rc which does the softlinks. 
The advantages of this, is that the remaining startup scripts executed
could then use these 'standard' devices--so changes which must be made are
kept to a minimum.  In general this is not a big deal--as most people only
use one or two systems.  However, where I work we've "grown"  quite a few
FreeBSD boxes, and all have different hardware.  Administrating all of
them is annoying at times, as some have their ethernet device at ed0,
others off de0, etc--some have serial mice, others bus, one has a PS2
mouse.  I doubt most interfaces would change much, and in general
something like this wouldn't be used often--but it would be VERY nice in
that it would provide an abstraction layer which would help in system
administration.  Furthermore, it would finally shutup the linux group who
whine because FreeBSD doesn't have /dev/mouse 8b

Just some thoughts

-Brandon Gillespie


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:16:22 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704110016.JAA07289@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: time.h and strptime()
In-Reply-To: <165D940071@smtp.dancooks.com> from Jason Hudgins at "Apr 10, 97 03:27:59 pm"
To: hudginsj@smtp.dancooks.com (Jason Hudgins)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:46:08 +0930 (CST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Jason Hudgins stands accused of saying:
> 
> I was in the process of writing it myself, and then some
> nice soul just mailed me the proposed strptime source..THANKS!
> That just saved me several hours of toil.  Plus its MUCH cleaner
> that gnu's strptime.c  ..I gave up trying to port it because it
> was a hacked up piece of dung.

Ow, that smarts!

How about you write a manpage for strptime and let's see if we can't
get it into the tree then...

>   Jason Hudgins

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:16:38 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704110011.JAA07258@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Bad speed on modem connected to isdn pot
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Communique._Inc.%l=KAORI-970410183427Z-119@kaori.communique.net> from Raul Zighelboim at "Apr 10, 97 01:34:27 pm"
To: mango@staff.communique.net (Raul Zighelboim)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:41:36 +0930 (CST)
Cc: mnewton@newland.com, hackers@freebsd.org
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Raul Zighelboim stands accused of saying:
> 
> Could it be that your serial port is a 8550UART ? and therefore, cannot
> handle more thatn 9600 reliably ?

Uhh, the 8550 is a VAX; it probably uses 2681 UARTs (or something even
more weird).  You may have meant 8250 8)

Unfortunately, you are both barking up the wrong tree.  If you were
to _read_the_sio_manpage_, you would see :

DIAGNOSTICS
     sio%d: silo overflow.  Problem in the interrupt handler.

     sio%d: interrupt-level buffer overflow.  Problem in the bottom half of
     the driver.

     sio%d: tty-level buffer overflow.  Problem in the application.  Input has
     arrived faster than the given module could process it and some has been
     lost.


ie. it has nothing to do with baudrate conversion, just with whatever is
actually listening to the line.

> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:	Malcolm newton [SMTP:mnewton@newland.com]
> >Sent:	Thursday, April 10, 1997 12:39 PM
> >To:	hackers
> >Subject:	Bad speed on modem connected to isdn pot
> >
> >I have a 28.8 modem attached to the analog side of a 64kb isdn line.
> >The getty is set at 57600. On incoming calls I get tty-level buffer
> >overflows.
> >I think its becaus the 64kb isdn line when converted to analog is
> >transmitting at 64k
> >and 57600 is not fast enough for it. I've bumped it up to 115200 but
> >that doesn't work
> >Whats the next valid speed that would cope with 64k.  is 65536 a valid
> >speed. The modem works fine on a regular bell line ??
> > << File: ATT00335.html >> 
> 


-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:22:42 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704110021.JAA07339@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <1652.860709359@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Apr 10, 97 02:55:59 pm"
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:51:12 +0930 (CST)
Cc: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, proff@suburbia.net, nate@mt.sri.com,
        msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, sef@kithrup.com,
        hackers@freebsd.org
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Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying:
> > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is

NOOO!  I just nuked my SCO ODT partition; I do _not_ want to play "you
are in a maze of twisty symlinks, all different" again for a _long_
time.

If you remain unconvinced, go out and get a copy for yourself, and see
whether you actually enjoy it.

> I'm starting to get a headache. :-)

Me too.

> 					Jordan

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:23:55 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:29:13 +1000 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>, Adam David <adam@veda.is>,
        adrian@obiwan.aceonline.com.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, I wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote:
> 
> > > I have seen it most often with telnet/rlogin into the "victim" machine, and
> > > SMTP (and other TCP) connections going weird after 'sh /etc/rc.firewall'
> > > during normal operation.
> > 
> > guess: ipfw flush doesn't close any connections but the resulting state of
> > ipfw after the flush causes all connection info to be lost, resulting in
> > packets not being forwarded properly and the connection closed,.
> 
> This is exactly right.  I have already committed changes to add the -q 
> flag so that ipfw -q flush does not report the flush.
> 
> >From the 2.2-RELEASE man page:
> 
>      -q    While adding or flushing, be quiet about actions.  This is useful
>            for adjusting rules across a remote login session.  If a flush is
>            performed in verbose mode, it prints a message.  Because all rules
>            are flushed, the message cannot be delivered to the login session,
>            the login session is closed and the remainder of the ruleset is not
>            processed.  Access to the console is required to recover.

Oops.  This text is only in -current's manpage, although the -q option is 
in 2.2-RELEASE's ipfw.  Mike Pritchard, can you please update the 
RELENG_2_2 man page to reflect reality.  Everyone else, please grab 
ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src/sbin/ipfw/ipfw.8


Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:24:29 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704110024.JAA07373@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Installation question (2.2.1)
In-Reply-To: <334D7AFB.F23@nicen.icey.com> from Scott Brown at "Apr 10, 97 05:42:51 pm"
To: skb@icey.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:54:08 +0930 (CST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
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Scott Brown stands accused of saying:
> Can I install 2.2.1 directly from an Iomega Zip-parallel drive?

No.

> Once installed, will the system support that drive?


There is a driver for the SCSI-parallel converter used with those
drives, which is reported to work fairly well.  Be aware that the
driver is _slow_ due to the nature of the interface.

If you possibly can, avoid purchasing one, or if you have just
purchased one, try to exchange it for a 'real' SCSI version.

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:29:42 1997
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From: proff@suburbia.net
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Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from Darren Reed at "Apr 11, 97 08:47:09 am"
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:28:59 +1000 (EST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> You are deceiving yourselves if you think you are just making life
> easier for everyone.  Any change implies more work from 3rd party
> developers to accomodate that change.

Right but look at the alternative (attached below). You can quite
rightly say that this horror is required regardless. But the reality
is that the present does indeed become the past and in two years
time one can expect users to be running at least what we have as
-current now. That is why it is important to create an environment
that accommodates change as soon as possible, so during the course
of the next two years monstrosity below can be reduced to:

#include <sys/param.h>

A build support system which enables software to work out what
reality it is running in creates no burden on authors -- nothing
requires you to use the new constructs, but a little bit of
forethought can go a long way.

ps. /usr/include/includes.h and /usr/include/sys/includes.h,
    files containg nothing but a long list of:

	#define _HAVE_INCLUDES_H
	#define _HAVE_STDIO_H
	#define _HAVE_STDLIB_H

would be a god-send.

Here is another in the portability/maintainability war:

#define's pertaining to features are normally deposited in
sys/compile/kernel_name/opt_foo.h by config(8) during the kernel
configuration process. We would adapt this by having config(8) turn
the options list into a list of SYSCTL structure entries to be
compiled into the kernel.  On boot up, rc has sysctl(8) walk
kern.config.opt.* and populate /var/kern/kernel_name (using an
install -C variant, so timestamps don't change if values don't
change) and a symlink to it from /var/run/kern_opt.
/var/kern/kernel_name/opts.h would contain a list of _HAVE_OPT_FOO_H
defines for conditional inclusion of opt_foo.h files based is their
existence (NOT their contents).  This scenario not only solves all
the nasty -DDEVFS type problems for lkm's, but would enable completely
transparent dependency adaption by /usr/src/lkm/* to any kernel
image.

--
/*
 * (C)opyright 1997 by Julian Assange. <proff@suburbia.net>
 */
#ifdef __FreeBSD__
# if defined(KERNEL) && !defined(_KERNEL)
#  define _KERNEL
# endif
# if defined(_KERNEL) && !defined(KERNEL)
#  define KERNEL
# endif
# if __FreeBSD__ == 0            /* 1.0 did not define __FreeBSD__ */
#  define __FreeBSD_version 199401
# elif __FreeBSD__ == 1          /* 1.1 defined it to be 1 */
#  define __FreeBSD_version 199405
# elif __FreeBSD__ >= 2                           /* 2.0 and higher define it to be 2 */
#  ifndef KERNEL
#   include <osreldate.h>          /* and this works */
#  else
#   include <sys/param.h>	   /* trickier */
#   ifndef __FreeBSD_version
#    ifdef __FreeBSD_sysversion	   /* just hopefullness on my part, no-one uses this  */
#     define __FreeBSD_version __FreeBSD_sysversion
#    else
#     if BSD >= 199506
#      if MAXLOGNAME >= 17		/* GROSS hack */
#       define __FreeBSD_version 300000
#      else
#       define __FreeBSD_version 220000
#      endif
#     else
#      if MAXSYMLINKS >=32		/* GROSS hack */
#       define __FreeBSD_version 210000
#      else
#       define __FreeBSD_version 200000
#      endif
#     endif
#    endif
#   endif
#  endif
# endif
#endif


--
Prof. Julian Assange  |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people
		      |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks
proff@suburbia.net    |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless
proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu  |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:38:04 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704110018.RAA10243@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:18:14 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704102335.QAA13275@coyote.Artisoft.COM> from "Darren Reed" at Apr 11, 97 09:29:35 am
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> > Then you are lucky that this is an informational change, and not one
> > that implies an interface change, and therefore work for third party
> > developers...
> 
> Lets see...firstly, there is <osreldate.h> which is particular to FreeBSD.
> Including that file always requires #ifdef's for FreeBSD.  Now you want
> to introduce <sys/osreldate.h>.  That is going to be conditional on what
> is in <osreldate.h>.  THen code which currently checks for __FreeBSD_version
> must be adapted to see if __FreeBSD_sysversion exists.

1)	<sys/xxx.h> files can *never* depend on <xxx.h> files.

2)	You only have to check the version if you want to protect
	against a crash better than you currently do.


> Why weren't __FreeBSD_version & __FreeBSD_sysversion (IF you need both) put
> in <sys/param.h> ?  For starters, one doesn't need to worry about extra
> include files, although removing <osreldate.h> would not be good, now.

I don't know; I've never used <osreldate.h>.  It really only applies
to the installation insteance of the toolset, and the instances of the
API enacted by the standard (not system) include files, IMO.

It seems to me that it's a concession to vendors who don't want to check
the BSD manifest constants across BSD platforms.


> Whilst it may not be an interface change, it is a change which tells us
> about which interface is present.

The kernel "interfaces" (the structures documented in /usr/include/sys/*.h
and accessed via libkvm can't really be counted as interfaces -- vendors
should not access them unless they are supplying system software) were
totally *undocumented* in changes involving the kernel but not the build
system (unless the build system changes, <osreldate.h> remains unchanged
across kernel revisions, since /usr/include is not consulted in order to
build kernels, per the original message).

You can't possibly have a system component that reference <osreldate.h>,
since it's not accessable in the kernel build environment (this is the
problem he is talking about addressing).


> Further still, there is the uselessness of __FreeBSD__ in some circumstances.

That would be those vendor circumstances where vendors want all BSD's
to standardize on the same interfaces.

The fly in that ointment is BSDI, of course, since they are going to
go their own direction, come hell or high water.


> Although it may be defined and have a numeric value, it can have a value
> totally unrelated to which version of the OS it is.

It is related in terms of the date of the OS release compared to the
date of the kernel.  It is useful for a "feature test" only in the
case of feature increase, never in the case of decrease.  In a way, it
is similar to a shared library minor revision number: you can add with
it, but if you take away, all bets are off.


> To my mind, mixing kernel versions with different "userland" versions is
> a mistake.  At this point in time, FreeBSD is a single combined product,
> both kernel and userland, distinct from other OS's such as Linux which
> have a very separate Kernel & userland components.  From this, I'd argue
> that __FreeBSD_version is sufficient and that encouragement for kernel &
> userland "skew" isn't wise (unless libkvm and other things in the kernel
> access by user programs NEVER change).

It is a big mistake to break existing userland binaries -- including that
supplied by third parties -- when you make a change to the kernel.

Right now this is a problem because of the way libkvm works: the way
the iteration interface works is dependent on the structure sizes, and
they are not abstracted such that the code that iterates can do so
independent of the structure size changes.  This is a mistake in the
character of the implementation of libkvm, and it's a mistake in coding
in the user space programs which use libkvm.

To act otherwise is to invite third party user space code to break
when kernel changes occur.  And that's what currently happens.

The point of a kernel versioning stamp is to provide an <osreldate.h>
style facility for third party kernel components, such as those
distributed by OSS (the sound drivers).

You can't expect kernel structures to not change.  You *should* be able
to expect that kernel interfaces not to change, and there should be *no*
interfaces (for user space code, anyway) and *few* interfaces for kernel
code, which depend on the size of kernel structures.


> [...]
> > Though it would be smart if third party developers specified a version
> > stamp (generally for a release) under which their stuff is *expected* to
> > work.  Unfortunately, you can't do that in the face of CVSup (unless
> > this change is adopted and you check the value -- you don't *have* to
> > check the value -- you can load anyway and crash newer kernels instead,
> > if you want, like the star_saver_mod...).
> 
> Well, let me give you some more of my thoughts.
> 
> Once I have IP Filter working on a particular version of FreeBSD, there
> are usually no more problems with that rev.
> 
> However, for the next n months, I get people asking "when will it work
> on -CURRENT ?" or "when will it work on X.Y-STABLE ?", etc.
> 
> Personally, I refuse to even atempt to support anything that isn't marked
> as a "release" (and available on CD-ROm if I can :).

Good plan.  That's the point of FreeBSD doing releases: to commit as
large of its user base as it can to a particular set of interfaces, so
that a third party developer can feel secure enough in their market that
they will actually develope code for FreeBSD.

Personally, I'd like to see the user space static enough that third
party programs that want to manipulate system configuration interaces
have to go through an interface which is held constant across the
kernel/user interface changing.  This means you use a library or you
run probrams for which the interface is not going to change in order
to, for example, manipulate the mount() system call.  And FreeBSD makes
no commitment whatsoever that that particular kerne/user interface is
not going to change, only that you will still be able to system(3) the
same "/sbin/mount" command with the same arguments, across revisions.

Clearly libkvm is not an acceptable candidate for an interface which can
be "frozen" like this -- you would ask FreeBSD to have no progress past
the status quo.  Your market would go away as people left FreeBSD just
as surely as your market will go away if FreeBSD leaves an interface you
depend upon behind without providing a revision-neutral alternative that
you can depend upon (and which you *use*).  Either way, your market is
in danger until the interfaces are stabilized, either by way of
compartmentalization, or by way of non-data abstraction (preferrably
both, so that third party system component vendors get the same benefits
as third party user space program vendors).


In any case, making third party kernel module developement robust in
the face of kernel interface changes in the mean time, is not a bad idea,
and that's what a kernel version stamp seperate from the userland version
stamp, will do.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:40:44 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:56:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ian Struble <ian@ian.broken.net>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: UNIX/LOCAL sockets
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Hi,

I am having some problems with large numbers of local sockets(>30) open at one
time. I thought that I read somewhere that 30 was an internal limit for the
number of sockets but I can't remember, is this true?  I thought it is set to
128 in sys/sys/socket.h  as SOMAXCONN, but I'm not really sure anymore.  I
guess I just want to know what the limit really is and how I could increase it
if it is only 30.  Oh, the box this is running 2.1.6-RELEASE and Apache.  All
the socket stuff is happening in some cgi's as well as the one's that are
created when you run fast-cgi's.  I know ths message is pretty vague and
unclear but I hope someone can kind of guess what I am getting at and/or prod
me with a few choice questions :)

Thanks,

Ian


----
"I'd love to go out with you, but the man on television told me to say
tuned."

----

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:42:36 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704110022.RAA10274@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Installation question (2.2.1)
To: skb@icey.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:22:55 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <334D7AFB.F23@nicen.icey.com> from "Scott Brown" at Apr 10, 97 05:42:51 pm
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> Can I install 2.2.1 directly from an Iomega Zip-parallel drive?
> 
> Once installed, will the system support that drive?

Does your PC BIOS POST routine support booting from an IOmega Zip
parallel [port] drive?

If you can't boot *any* OS off the drive, then you can't boot
FreeBSD off the drive, since "FreeBSD" is a subset of "any OS".

8-).

That said, there is a port of a parallel port driver for the Zip
drive for FreeBSD.  Search the -hackers list archive on
www.freebsd.org for more information.


I sersiously doubt that you will be able to boot off of *any*
parallel port device without booting from floppy or from a real
fixed disk first; the default INT 13 routines installed by the
BIOS POST simply won't let you use the drive without you loading
the IOmega DOS driver, which you can't do until after you boot.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 17:53:59 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704110033.RAA10297@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:33:42 -0700 (MST)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19970411002900.15347.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Apr 11, 97 10:28:59 am
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> ps. /usr/include/includes.h and /usr/include/sys/includes.h,
>     files containg nothing but a long list of:
> 
> 	#define _HAVE_INCLUDES_H
> 	#define _HAVE_STDIO_H
> 	#define _HAVE_STDLIB_H
> 
> would be a god-send.

Or simply conforming to POSIX, with vendors using minimal system
specific interfaces apart from POSIX in order to implement.

This has the nice advantage of making the code portable to NT, VMS,
and all other POSIX platforms as well, with minor tweaking of the
the [isolated] system specific code.

BTW: stdio.h already does a:
	#define	_STDIO_H_


> #define's pertaining to features are normally deposited in
> sys/compile/kernel_name/opt_foo.h by config(8) during the kernel
> configuration process. We would adapt this by having config(8) turn
> the options list into a list of SYSCTL structure entries to be
> compiled into the kernel.  On boot up, rc has sysctl(8) walk
> kern.config.opt.* and populate /var/kern/kernel_name (using an
> install -C variant, so timestamps don't change if values don't
> change) and a symlink to it from /var/run/kern_opt.
> /var/kern/kernel_name/opts.h would contain a list of _HAVE_OPT_FOO_H
> defines for conditional inclusion of opt_foo.h files based is their
> existence (NOT their contents).  This scenario not only solves all
> the nasty -DDEVFS type problems for lkm's, but would enable completely
> transparent dependency adaption by /usr/src/lkm/* to any kernel
> image.

This is one approach; anothe would be to abstract the interfaces
where these things hook so that you could place any black box
you wanted in there, as long as it met the call/parameter scoping
requirements.


The real problem here is not devfs, but the fact that you need any
"#ifdef DEVFS" anywhere in the kernel at all because you didn't
abstract the interfaces jointly used by the non-devfs and devfs
at the correct level.  This is why my crusade for getting rid of
all conditionally compiled code (and config, as anything other than
a component list editor, in the process).

Q: Why do you need conditional compilation?
A: The interfaces are different

Q: Why are the interfaces different?
A: They were not sufficiently abstracted in the first place

Q: Why aren't they sufficiently abstraced in the integration process?
A: No good reason

[ ... kernel version tagging header elided ... ]


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 18:20:48 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:02:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704110002.UAA14202@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers
Subject: More on my particular NFS problems (possibly the 3c509/ep0 driver?)
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OK - 

 recalling this is 2.2.1 and I mentioned a lockup during directory
accesses of NFS file systems (V2) - mounted from HP/UX 9.05 and SunOS.

 I did some quick tests on some other hardware, and am begining to
believe the problem is my 3c509.

 Apparently, the ep0 driver has undergone some changes and is possibly 
the culprit... 

 On Monday, the machine was running 2.1.5, happily doing NFS.

 On Tuesday, I installed 2.2.1; and now NFS hangs.

 Today (thursday) I tried the same operations using a 3c900 card
(admitedly on a different machine, running 2.2.1) and did not get the 
problems.

 This makes me wonder if it's the 3c509 driver in 2.2.1...

 If this is so, would it explain the hang-up in sbwait()?

	 - Opinions? -
	- Dave Rivers -




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 18:23:28 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:28:44 +1000 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
In-Reply-To: <199704110021.JAA07339@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote:

> Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying:
> > > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> > > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is
> 
> NOOO!  I just nuked my SCO ODT partition; I do _not_ want to play "you
> are in a maze of twisty symlinks, all different" again for a _long_
> time.

This might sound like a super hack, but given all of the other 
suggestions in this thread, I'll throw it in for consideration.

I wanted to set up a machine with ro / and /usr.  Because unionfs does 
not work well (and I'm not hacker enough to fix it, or I would consider 
it) I made a small /etc partition which can be mounted rw.  At boot time,

wd0a:/etc/rc execs wd0a:/boot/rc.boot

wd0a:/boot/rc.boot mounts wd0s1e on /etc and execs wd0a:/etc/rc.continue

If /etc fails to mount, wd0a:/etc is used to boot into an emergency mode 
which has enough stuff in it to log into our terminal server, and send 
mail to me, so I can telnet in and fix the dirty filesystems.  

It has saved me an hour's drive to the customer's site a couple of times. 
(Customer pulls plug on their gateway to use the vacuum cleaner or
something.)

Now this is a *real* headache, but if init started its boot process from 
wd0a:/boot/rc which mounted /etc and continued, the headache would be 
less, and read-only / would move close to reality.

Danny


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 18:55:54 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704110155.LAA08171@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: dropped packet on de0
In-Reply-To: <9703108606.AA860696480@ccmail.res.ray.com> from "Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.res.ray.com" at "Apr 10, 97 09:31:56 am"
To: Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.res.ray.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:25:42 +0930 (CST)
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Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.res.ray.com stands accused of saying:
>      I was trying to see if I could make de0 drop packets
>      
>      I ran 3 "ping -f"s between different pairs of
>      nodes on a shared 10Mbit coax ethernet
>      
>      xperfmon++ reported ~1500 packets per second, ~700 collisions per 
>      second.
>      
>      netstat -d -I didn't report a single drop
>      
>      when I used kgdb to watch the send queue, I did not ever see any
>      accumulation of data
>      
>      all this under 2.1.0 (p5-133, smc etherpower combo)
>      
>      My question, is it possible to load down the de0 send queue at all, 
>      and if so, under what conditions?  

ping -f only sends at 100 packets/second; try 'ping -l 100000' to get
ping to really push, or use one of the TCP throughput testing programs
in the ports collection.

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 19:02:37 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704110201.LAA08278@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem FOUND
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970410091311.006a8f8c@etinc.com> from dennis at "Apr 10, 97 09:13:13 am"
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:31:14 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, terry@lambert.org,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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dennis stands accused of saying:
> >> 
> >> BSDI comes with a RAM tester as add on utiliy on the BSDI CD.
> >> YOu can dd floppy image to floppy, boot from that floppy ...
> >
> >I tested a pile of RAM testers here at one stage while I was having a
> >running brawl with our then-RAM supplier about some memory I knew was
> >faulty.
> >
> >I didn't find a single one that would tell me the memory was busted,
> >but it most certainly was.  (They eventually relented, stuck it on
> >their tester, said "oh, well it is actually stuffed" and replaced it.
> >We shop elsewhere now.)
> 
> Blaming "bad ram" is like the doctor telling you you "have a virus" when he
> has no clue what else to tell you.......

... despite the fact that he's right (most people have several viral
infections at any given point in time), and that if you're down it's
the best thing he can tell you anyway.  If you want to argue about
this, I can redirect you at my SO (biotech) who will happily talk you
to death on the topic 8)

> If you have real bad ram (a dead pin or a bad location(s)), you get
> consistent failures that go away when you replace the ram or use
> another machine. If you have "flakey" ram (bad timing, etc) you get
> random failures and crashes. f you get the same failure on 2
> machines with different ram it ain't the ram.....

That's lousy logic there Dennis, and you ought to know that.  Matter of
fact, the bad RAM I was talking about before was in a group of four 
machines, and all four were displaying RAM-like failures.  Oddly,
replacing the RAM cured the problems.

> db

In your particular case, I don't buy the 'bad RAM' problem though.
Have you considered putting a 'vmstat' binary on the NFS partition
that you are loading from, and running 'vmstat -m' from the
holographic shell while the install is going?  Without this sort of
detail, it's impossible to tell what's going on - I can't reproduce
your problems; I did an 'everything' install last night using NFS onto
an 8M 486 (using a locally cut 2.2-STABLE release) and it worked fine.

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 19:27:08 1997
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Apr 1997 14:55:59 PDT."
		<1652.860709359@time.cdrom.com> 
References: <1652.860709359@time.cdrom.com>  
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:26:53 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <1652.860709359@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:
: > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
: > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is
: 
: I'm starting to get a headache. :-)

I hate to say this, but I kinda like this idea.

Does somebody have a cononical list of these files so that some brave
soles can begin to experiment?

Warner


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 19:30:08 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Installation question (2.2.1) 
Cc: skb@icey.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:54:08 +0930."
		<199704110024.JAA07373@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
References: <199704110024.JAA07373@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>  
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:29:49 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199704110024.JAA07373@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes:
: If you possibly can, avoid purchasing one, or if you have just
: purchased one, try to exchange it for a 'real' SCSI version.

Rumor has it that you can make the parallel version into the SCSI
version, but I've not met anybody that can confirm this rumor.
Anybody here know?

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 20:51:24 1997
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To: Ian Struble <ian@ian.broken.net>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: UNIX/LOCAL sockets 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:56:45 PDT."
             <XFMail.970410174034.ian@ian.broken.net> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 20:51:17 -0700
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>I am having some problems with large numbers of local sockets(>30) open at one
>time. I thought that I read somewhere that 30 was an internal limit for the
>number of sockets but I can't remember, is this true?  I thought it is set to
>128 in sys/sys/socket.h  as SOMAXCONN, but I'm not really sure anymore.  I
>guess I just want to know what the limit really is and how I could increase it
>if it is only 30.  Oh, the box this is running 2.1.6-RELEASE and Apache.  All
>the socket stuff is happening in some cgi's as well as the one's that are
>created when you run fast-cgi's.  I know ths message is pretty vague and
>unclear but I hope someone can kind of guess what I am getting at and/or prod
>me with a few choice questions :)

   You're a little confused about this. The number of sockets isn't limited
by SOMAXCONN. The only limit that would affect that is the process open file
limit. SOMAXCONN limits the number of unaccepted connections that can be
outstanding in the queue at any given time.
   It sounds like you might need to increase the per-process file descriptor
limit. That's just a guess, however. The guesses get more accurate with
information, so if you could perhaps explain what "having some problems" is
supposed to mean, this would help.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 22:30:38 1997
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Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections
In-Reply-To: <199704102305.XAA28623@veda.is> from Darren Reed at "Apr 11, 97 08:56:59 am"
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 05:45:10 +0000 (GMT)
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This is also weird...

'sh /etc/rc.firewall' invoked from a telnet or rlogin connection will break
the connection, but if it is invoked from the console instead the network
login connection stays open.

--
Adam David <adam@veda.is>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 22:58:21 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:02:28 +1000 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Adam David <adam@veda.is>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Adam David wrote:

> This is also weird...
> 
> 'sh /etc/rc.firewall' invoked from a telnet or rlogin connection will break
> the connection, but if it is invoked from the console instead the network
> login connection stays open.

Have you read my earlier e-mail?  This occurs because if you leave out 
the '-q' option 'flush' says "Flushed all rules".  But when the tcp 
packets come to be sent, and error "Permission denied" is return, so 
telnetd/rlogind quite, kernel resets connection and the rest of 
rc.firewall is probably not executed.

Use -q with your flush in 2.2-RELEASE and later. 
If you don't have -q, make sure you do

 ipfw -f flush >/dev/null 2>&1

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Apr 10 23:57:35 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:57:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ian Kallen <spidaman@well.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Subject: Re: Message Catalog System 
In-Reply-To: <E0wEKWP-0000vi-00@rover.village.org>
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It's apparently tcsh -- I'm using tcsh-6.07.02 from ports.  The problem
goes away with csh but, eh, I'd really rather use tcsh.  Here's the trace
from opening an xterm (does that help?):

   224 ktrace   RET   ktrace 0
   224 ktrace   CALL  readlink(0x8066eaa,0xefbfd258,0x3f)
   224 ktrace   NAMI  "/etc/malloc.conf"
   224 ktrace   RET   readlink -1 errno 2 No such file or directory
   224 ktrace   CALL  mmap(0,0x1000,0x3,0x1002,0xffffffff,0,0,0)
   224 ktrace   RET   mmap 134324224/0x801a000
   224 ktrace   CALL  break(0x5000)
   224 ktrace   RET   break 0
   224 ktrace   CALL  break(0x6000)
   224 ktrace   RET   break 0
   224 ktrace   CALL  execve(0xefbfd320,0xefbfd7e8,0xefbfd7f0)
   224 ktrace   NAMI  "/sbin/xterm"
   224 ktrace   RET   execve -1 errno 2 No such file or directory
   224 ktrace   CALL  execve(0xefbfd320,0xefbfd7e8,0xefbfd7f0)
   224 ktrace   NAMI  "/bin/xterm"
   224 ktrace   RET   execve -1 errno 2 No such file or directory
   224 ktrace   CALL  execve(0xefbfd320,0xefbfd7e8,0xefbfd7f0)
   224 ktrace   NAMI  "/usr/sbin/xterm"
   224 ktrace   RET   execve -1 errno 2 No such file or directory
   224 ktrace   CALL  execve(0xefbfd320,0xefbfd7e8,0xefbfd7f0)
   224 ktrace   NAMI  "/usr/bin/xterm"
   224 ktrace   RET   execve -1 errno 2 No such file or directory
   224 ktrace   CALL  execve(0xefbfd320,0xefbfd7e8,0xefbfd7f0)
   224 ktrace   NAMI  "/usr/games/xterm"
   224 ktrace   RET   execve -1 errno 2 No such file or directory
   224 ktrace   CALL  execve(0xefbfd320,0xefbfd7e8,0xefbfd7f0)
   224 ktrace   NAMI  "/usr/local/bin/xterm"
   224 ktrace   RET   execve -1 errno 2 No such file or directory
   224 ktrace   CALL  execve(0xefbfd320,0xefbfd7e8,0xefbfd7f0)
   224 ktrace   NAMI  "/usr/X11R6/bin/xterm"

The error message shows up if I'm running as root or as a regular user.
Any ideas how to make it go away?

thanks!

On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Warner Losh wrote:
> In message <Pine.GSO.3.93.970407120846.28336A-100000@well.com> Ian
> Kallen writes: 
> : It started after doing some post install configuring with X, some packages
> : and ports back when I was on 2.2-GAMMA.  I went to 2.2.1-RELEASE on that
> : machine I think it was when 2.2.1 first came out but the problem
> : persisted even after that upgrade.  Now I think I understand that
> : there may have been some post-last-minute changes to 2.2.1-RELEASE (?) --
> : Do you think an "upgrade" to a newer 2.2.1 will make a difference (I'm
> : gonna configure CVSsup on one of those darn machines today!)?
> 
> No.  I did my changes that might break this after 2.2 was released
> (and maybe after the 2.2.1 tag was put down).  So those changes aren't
> your problem.  What does ktrace tell you?  And do these problems
> happen when you are running as root?
> 
> Warner
> 
> 

The next interface will not be another desktop metaphor.... Ian Kallen ....
http://www.well.com/user/spidaman/ ....the revolution will not be televised.
===== TO RECEIVE MY PGP KEY, SEND MAIL TO spidey-pgp-info@well.com =======


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 01:01:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:00:42 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote:

> In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
> > 
> > > Is the 430TX chipset recognised/supported yet ?
> > 
> > Is this a PCI chipset?
> 
> Yes, the "latest" from Intel (advertised as faster than HX and VX).

While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more on
memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual bus
architecture that makes a significant performance difference.

Regards,


Mike Hancock



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 01:04:44 1997
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Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:24:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ian Struble <ian@ian.broken.net>
To: dg@root.com
Subject: Re: UNIX/LOCAL sockets
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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>
>   You're a little confused about this. The number of sockets isn't limited
>by SOMAXCONN. The only limit that would affect that is the process open file
>limit. SOMAXCONN limits the number of unaccepted connections that can be
>outstanding in the queue at any given time.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

>   It sounds like you might need to increase the per-process file descriptor
>limit. That's just a guess, however. The guesses get more accurate with
>information, so if you could perhaps explain what "having some problems" is

This per-process fd limit is exactly what I was thinking about but was just too
tired to put two and two together, let alone find out where to find and change
it.  Do I need to add an option to the kernel config file to change this?

Moving right along, let me see what I can do to elaborate on the problem.  I am
working on the back-end cgi stuff for a little registration system that is
supposed to be able to handle at least 10 simultaneous registrations at once.
Right now 5 works just fine but 10 causes some problems.  I can't really be very
much more specific on the `problems` because someone else's front end is in the
way.  Apache is giving me a mysterious little error though :

        Title - 500 Server Error

        Internal Server Error

        The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and
        was unable to complete your request.

Actually this is the first time I have actually seen the 'Title - 500...' line,
but the rest is the same.  Oh, I have been  getting these messages with both
Apache ver. 1.1.3 and ver. 1.2b7.
        
The cgi processes are basically clients that send msgs to one central 'server'
via local sockets which inturn sends all these packets out to a remote site for
processing and then back to the individual CGI's.  I know it sounds like alot
of work and could be done straight out of the individual cgi processes, but I
am dealing with people on a firewall who will only allow me a single port send
so I figured this was the only way to go about it.

TIA,

Ian

----
Tussman's Law:
        Nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has come.

----

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 02:15:43 1997
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I still think socket demultiplexing can be done much better,
here are some things in my head:

1) Dynamic hash table growth at least for TCP.

   This is an old trick, would require a tcp_htbl_size to keep
   track of how big we are, and a function to rehash into the
   new table, it only grows and never shrinks.  It only grows by
   powers of two as well, the limitation on it's max size is based
   upon the amount of ram in the machine.  All straight forward
   stuff.

2) Slightly more intricate.

   Main bound hash is two level, second level hashes are only
   allocated and hooked into the top level when they are first
   needed but are never destroyed.  Destruction would require
   timers and a garbage collector, does not seem to be worth it.

3) A bit more hairy.

   View the Socket identity as a 96 bit key (as it really is)
   Use this and a DP trie and digital searches to look up sockets.
   The main reason this approach turns me on is that DP tries
   are specifically designed for longest matching prefix searches,
   in particular we can arrange the bits in the "big key" to have
   local port and local addr at the front, this makes listening sock
   lookup (which looks in this case like a default route ;-) much
   quicker even with huge numbers of connections.

   This scheme also can be proven to have a given response time with
   a given set of sockets.  DP trie's are specifically designed such
   that the layout of the tree is dependant upon "whats" in the tree
   not "how it got there"  That is, no matter the order of insertions
   and deletions, for that given set of sockets the trie will always
   be the same.

   One lose is that to do a lookup you have to put the socket identity
   elements from the header on the local stack to arrange the bits
   correctly next to each other for the search.  Also, although
   insertion and deletion are done in constant time, I am still not
   certain this is not a "considerable" amount of constant time
   (ie. too slow ;-)

4) Really far out (this is an ANK original ;-)

   Stick small hashes (perhaps 2 level) into the destination cache
   entries.  We need to get at the dst cache entry for all outgoing
   and incoming packets we care about anyways, thus it is very
   cheap to sprinkle the mini hash tables into there and look them
   up this way.

   Of the top of my head there is only one bad case, and unfortunately
   this is the case that the benchmarks tend to test.  A few machines
   (thus a small number of dst cache entries) making thousands upon
   thousands of connections to us.  This is because the mini hashes in
   the dst cache entries would be overloaded entirely.  It might be
   offset entirely if we used a two level scheme in the mini-hashes
   (8 entries top level, perhaps 16 in the second level).

   The only other problems this one might present is that a few extra
   dst cache lookups will occur when we need to do a lookup and we
   have no other reason (currently) to have the dst entry handy
   already.

For 3 and 4 the TCP bound hash would need to remain as I cannot think
of any other way to perform those operations more efficiently.

B tree's looks interesting for this application, but I still have to
study some of the worse/average case analysis for those, the problem
with socket lookups is that you hit the worse case during these high
stress situations.  This is why hashes are so appealing for socket
demultiplexing, "are the chains getting too long?  just make the table
bigger" etc.

Just a brain dump, continue hacking...

---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s   ////
ethernet.  Beat that!                     ////
-----------------------------------------////__________  o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 03:03:28 1997
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From: mika ruohotie <bsdhack@shadows.aeon.net>
Message-Id: <199704111001.NAA28678@shadows.aeon.net>
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
In-Reply-To: <199704102254.PAA05935@freefall.freebsd.org> from Darren Reed at "Apr 11, 97 08:48:44 am"
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:01:56 +0300 (EET DST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
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> > > Is the 430TX chipset recognised/supported yet ?
> > Is this a PCI chipset?
> Yes, the "latest" from Intel (advertised as faster than HX and VX).

right.

a chipset without EEC support, without ability to cache above 64 megs ram...

need i say more?

ok, so it does have sgram support, so what? see if i care.

this is one of those times when i'm more than just dissapointed into intel's
developers... makes me wonder how can they not include something they
already have invented into it.

what the people wouldve needed would've been chipset with support for
over 512 megs cacheable ram, ofcourse using sgram. (and ofcourse with
like 1024/2048k cache option) or atleast a product that's not WORSE
then their earlier products.

seriously people, HX boards are the ones to get.


mickey

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 03:08:18 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 03:08:08 -0700
From: John-Mark Gurney <jmg@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Cc: Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.res.ray.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Organization: Cu Networking
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Michael Smith scribbled this message on Apr 11:
> ping -f only sends at 100 packets/second; try 'ping -l 100000' to get
> ping to really push, or use one of the TCP throughput testing programs
> in the ports collection.

not acording to the man page:
     -f      Flood ping.  Outputs packets as fast as they come back or one
             hundred times per second, whichever is more.  For every

-- 
  John-Mark
  Cu Networking                             Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954

  Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 04:29:20 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:27:57 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Christoph Haas <haas@willi.lion.de>
Reply-To: chris@acme1.ruhr.de
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Cc: haas@lion.de
Subject: Commercial vendors registry
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Hi,

a few days ago I saw a little discussion in one of the lists about a 
"commercial vendors registry", and I saw Jordan saying that he would like 
some kind of "registration desk" for 3rd party developers. So I decided
to set up a registry, but before I do the whole work I just wanted you to
know about my ideas (and of course I want to hear what you think about
it). So come on and share your thoughts about it with me...


Commercial Vendors Registry

1. It would be useful to have a few webpages with information for vendors
to read about news and ongoing changes to FreeBSD. 

1.1 Vendors should also have a chance to register themselves, so that
they get news and information about certain changes by mail. On this
registration page vendors should be able to provide all the facts and 
features they think necessary for us to know.

[excerpt of an example page]

Name:
E-mail address:
Position:
Company Name:
Postal Address:
Phone / Fax:

Product's name:
Description:
Http-link:

[to be continued, your suggestions here]

1.2 Additionally they should provide us with a few things we need to know
about their product by checkmarking the parts of FreeBSD that are
important to them:

[excerpt of an example page]

Our product relies on:

[] Kernel
	[] Filesystems
		[] UFS
		[] NFS
		...
	[] VM Support
	[] SMP
	[] Drivers
		[] Network
		[] SCSI
		...
	...

[] Userland
	[] X11
	[] Backup [tar, dump, ...]
	[] ...
	...

[to be continued... ;-]

So we get a chance to inform registered vendors about major changes in
those parts of FreeBSD that are important to them (let's call it "early
notification program"). 
 
2. We need a place on our webserver to give every vendor a chance to
present his product. (Yes, I know allready have a place for that, but I
think it needs to be brushed up).

3. There should be a single e-mail address for questions coming in from
commercial vendors (something like commerce@freebsd.org). 3rd party
developers should have a chance to get in contact with us and tell us
about their needs, problems and (most important ;-) success stories.
This address should also be used as some kind of "complain department",
so that we can redirect problems with certain parts of FreeBSD to the
responsible developer (remember: not everyone is subscribed to all
mailing lists).

So, what do you think about it ??

	Christoph



 


 


Christoph Haas		o.tel.o GmbH		| Never trust an operating
UNIX Sysadmin 		Universitaetsstrasse 140| system you don't have the
			44799 Bochum / Germany	| sources for.
mailto:haas@lion.de	http://www.o-tel-o.de	| http://www.freebsd.org



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 04:40:26 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:43:33 +0100 (BST)
From: Stephen Roome <steve@visint.co.uk>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
In-Reply-To: <199704102041.NAA09631@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:

> > Is the 430TX chipset recognised/supported yet ?
> 
> Is this a PCI chipset?

Yes.

> 
> PCI chipsets are configured at BIOS POST time.
>
> You do not need chipset specific drivers.

It might be useful if FreeBSD knew that only X amount of mem was 
cacheable, don't know why, but it strikes that it *could* optimise where 
stuff gets stored that way.

> 
> The SMP stuff wants chipset specific drivers because it wants to count
> bridges on machines with broken MP-tables in ROM/RAM/FLASH counts of
> the number of PCI bridges (so far: one motherboard vendor).

Which one ? This might be a good thing to know before I buy a motherboard!

Steve

--
Steve Roome
Vision Interactive Ltd.
E: steve@visint.co.uk      M: +44 (0) 976 241 342
T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597    F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 05:22:12 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:25:28 +0100 (BST)
From: Stephen Roome <steve@visint.co.uk>
To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
cc: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>, Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
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Subject: Re: 430TX ?
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Michael Hancock wrote:
> While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more on
> memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual bus
> architecture that makes a significant performance difference.

This is interesting, CTCM (motherboard benchmarker program) seems to tell 
me that I can get almost 56MB/s memory bandwidth. With a 66MHz bus clock 
I can't see how that this figure can improve much. Seeing as Intel seem 
unlikely to support a 75MHz or 83MHz bus speed then I'd love to know how 
they intend on doing this.

--
Steve Roome
Broom Cupboard Stockist, Vision Interactive Ltd.
E: steve@visint.co.uk      M: +44 (0) 976 241 342
T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597    F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 05:38:45 1997
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From: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
Message-Id: <199704111213.SAA00669@hq.icb.chel.su>
Subject: Re: SATAN under FreeBSD
To: khetan@iafrica.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:13:27 +0600 (ESD)
Cc: scrappy@hub.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970409144705.22836D-100000@chain.iafrica.com> from "Khetan Gajjar" at Apr 9, 97 02:48:02 pm
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> 
> On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> 
> >	The instructions talk about going to SATAN Target Selection as a
> >starting point, so I click on that and it gives me a 'SAVE AS...' box, 
> >saves the .pl file and then goes back to the main menu...
> 
> Using Netscape, right ?
> 
> Use Chimera (it's in the ports).
> Not the world's greatest browser, but it works for Satan.
> 

Or just set in the options that the .pl suffix means a HTML file.
It worked great for me. The only problem is that I found
absolutely no usefulness in SATAN. The "holes" it reported
about were so idiotic.

-SB

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 05:56:21 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:44:21 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
cc: khetan@iafrica.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: SATAN under FreeBSD
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Serge A. Babkin wrote:

> > 
> > On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> > 
> > >	The instructions talk about going to SATAN Target Selection as a
> > >starting point, so I click on that and it gives me a 'SAVE AS...' box, 
> > >saves the .pl file and then goes back to the main menu...
> > 
> > Using Netscape, right ?
> > 
> > Use Chimera (it's in the ports).
> > Not the world's greatest browser, but it works for Satan.
> > 
> 
> Or just set in the options that the .pl suffix means a HTML file.
> It worked great for me. The only problem is that I found
> absolutely no usefulness in SATAN. The "holes" it reported
> about were so idiotic.
>
	Any useful resources that I can look through on how to debug
things?  For instance, one of the machines at the office is an old
Altos machine running 'Sendmail 5.59/Altos-2.0 ready'...I'd like to be
able to test that one for any holes.  

	As for SATAN...you are right, the hosts I used it against all
reported no vulnerabilities, yet I know we've been having some breakin
problems :( 

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 06:06:36 1997
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From: Joe Beiter <jwb@xioa.cosmic.org>
Message-Id: <199704111307.JAA01598@xioa.cosmic.org>
Subject: keyboard locking w/X11
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I think this is a bug. Sorry if this isn't proper reporting procedure. Feel
free to query if there are questions:

Hardware: DELL Laptop XP90 32MB ram
2.2.1-RELEASE
XFree86 3.2

After running X11, the keyboard locks up. Must telnet in and reboot
to clear it up. Seems to be related to the sco console. Compiled
kernel with the pcvt console and problem went away. This problem did
not appear until upgrading from 2.1.0 to 2.2.1

- JoeB

:---==@==---==@==---==@==---:
Joseph Beiter                  Hacking's just another word for nothing 
jwb@cosmic.org                 left to kludge.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 06:19:14 1997
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From: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
Message-Id: <199704111311.TAA06060@hq.icb.chel.su>
Subject: Re: SATAN under FreeBSD
To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:11:17 +0600 (ESD)
Cc: khetan@iafrica.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.970411094139.235i-100000@thelab.hub.org> from "The Hermit Hacker" at Apr 11, 97 09:44:21 am
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> > Or just set in the options that the .pl suffix means a HTML file.
> > It worked great for me. The only problem is that I found
> > absolutely no usefulness in SATAN. The "holes" it reported
> > about were so idiotic.
> >
> 	Any useful resources that I can look through on how to debug
> things?  For instance, one of the machines at the office is an old
> Altos machine running 'Sendmail 5.59/Altos-2.0 ready'...I'd like to be
> able to test that one for any holes.  

I awaited a like thing from SATAN too. But almost all it did was analysing
the NFS exports :-(

-SB

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 06:31:12 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:26:27 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: "Serge A. Babkin" <babkin@hq.icb.chel.su>
cc: khetan@iafrica.com, security@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: SATAN under FreeBSD
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Serge A. Babkin wrote:

> > > Or just set in the options that the .pl suffix means a HTML file.
> > > It worked great for me. The only problem is that I found
> > > absolutely no usefulness in SATAN. The "holes" it reported
> > > about were so idiotic.
> > >
> > 	Any useful resources that I can look through on how to debug
> > things?  For instance, one of the machines at the office is an old
> > Altos machine running 'Sendmail 5.59/Altos-2.0 ready'...I'd like to be
> > able to test that one for any holes.  
> 
> I awaited a like thing from SATAN too. But almost all it did was analysing
> the NFS exports :-(

	Looking at the work on SATAN, and what it was trying to address, 
why isn't there a list compiled of 'how to break into an insecure system'?
Something that a system adminstrator could sit down and go through, one by 
one, to test their systems?

	One of the 'papers' that I've come across through Yahoo is found
at:

	http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/6866/admin.html

	which details several different methods of cracking into a system,
but its by no means complete, and all of them fail even on that old Altos
machine, so, like SATAN, is practically useless.

	Does anyone else know of something similar?  Maybe start up a 
'Improving Security' section off of the FreeBSD web pages with links to
*good* papers like the above?


Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 06:39:04 1997
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Warner Losh wrote:
> 
> In message <1652.860709359@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:
> : > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> : > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is
> :
> : I'm starting to get a headache. :-)
> 
> I hate to say this, but I kinda like this idea.
> 
> Does somebody have a cononical list of these files so that some brave
> soles can begin to experiment?

I think, exists some standarts.
 SIUC, POSIX

I don't know, are they defined canonical filenames,
but I think, that yes. (Sorry, but i have
no time for web-surfing now)

 So, can anybody put a links to the standarts
(from altavista or yahoo) and determinate this
staff ?

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 06:42:50 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:41:15 -0400
To: chris@acme1.ruhr.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
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At 01:27 PM 4/11/97 +0200, Christoph Haas wrote:
>Hi,
>
>a few days ago I saw a little discussion in one of the lists about a 
>"commercial vendors registry", and I saw Jordan saying that he would like 
>some kind of "registration desk" for 3rd party developers. So I decided
>to set up a registry, but before I do the whole work I just wanted you to
>know about my ideas (and of course I want to hear what you think about
>it). So come on and share your thoughts about it with me...
>
>
>Commercial Vendors Registry
>
>1. It would be useful to have a few webpages with information for vendors
>to read about news and ongoing changes to FreeBSD. 
>
>1.1 Vendors should also have a chance to register themselves, so that
>they get news and information about certain changes by mail. On this
>registration page vendors should be able to provide all the facts and 
>features they think necessary for us to know.
>
>[excerpt of an example page]
>
>Name:
>E-mail address:
>Position:
>Company Name:
>Postal Address:
>Phone / Fax:
>
>Product's name:
>Description:
>Http-link:
>
>[to be continued, your suggestions here]
>
>1.2 Additionally they should provide us with a few things we need to know
>about their product by checkmarking the parts of FreeBSD that are
>important to them:
>
>[excerpt of an example page]
>
>Our product relies on:
>
>[] Kernel
>	[] Filesystems
>		[] UFS
>		[] NFS
>		...
>	[] VM Support
>	[] SMP
>	[] Drivers
>		[] Network
>		[] SCSI
>		...
>	...
>
>[] Userland
>	[] X11
>	[] Backup [tar, dump, ...]
>	[] ...
>	...
>
>[to be continued... ;-]
>
>So we get a chance to inform registered vendors about major changes in
>those parts of FreeBSD that are important to them (let's call it "early
>notification program"). 
> 
>2. We need a place on our webserver to give every vendor a chance to
>present his product. (Yes, I know allready have a place for that, but I
>think it needs to be brushed up).
>
>3. There should be a single e-mail address for questions coming in from
>commercial vendors (something like commerce@freebsd.org). 3rd party
>developers should have a chance to get in contact with us and tell us
>about their needs, problems and (most important ;-) success stories.
>This address should also be used as some kind of "complain department",
>so that we can redirect problems with certain parts of FreeBSD to the
>responsible developer (remember: not everyone is subscribed to all
>mailing lists).
>
>So, what do you think about it ??
>
>	Christoph

I think that any vendor who does not have a developer on the hackers list
isn't
committed enough to recognize...... The hackers list is the best registry you
can have, and although there is a lot of irrelevant banter (as there is on 
any list), it gives a philosophical understanding of what is going on rather
that just snippets of effectual data.

Checklists are almost always inadequate, although I suppose required for
any automated attempt at implementing such a scenario. I don't know how
you would implement "kernel", as I cant imagine that you could quantify
the impact of a seemingly trivial kernel change on any particular product.

I would suggest that you encourage vendors to participate in freebsd's future
rather than just read about it. The hackers list is the best registry you
could
have, and although there is some irrelevant banter as there is on any list,
it provides a philosophical insight to the development of FreeBSD rather than
just snippets of data.

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 06:47:20 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:44:07 -0400
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2.1R NFS and FTP load problem FOUND
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At 11:31 AM 4/11/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote:
>dennis stands accused of saying:
>> >> 
>> >> BSDI comes with a RAM tester as add on utiliy on the BSDI CD.
>> >> YOu can dd floppy image to floppy, boot from that floppy ...
>> >
>> >I tested a pile of RAM testers here at one stage while I was having a
>> >running brawl with our then-RAM supplier about some memory I knew was
>> >faulty.
>> >
>> >I didn't find a single one that would tell me the memory was busted,
>> >but it most certainly was.  (They eventually relented, stuck it on
>> >their tester, said "oh, well it is actually stuffed" and replaced it.
>> >We shop elsewhere now.)
>> 
>> Blaming "bad ram" is like the doctor telling you you "have a virus" when he
>> has no clue what else to tell you.......
>
>... despite the fact that he's right (most people have several viral
>infections at any given point in time), and that if you're down it's
>the best thing he can tell you anyway.  If you want to argue about
>this, I can redirect you at my SO (biotech) who will happily talk you
>to death on the topic 8)
>
>> If you have real bad ram (a dead pin or a bad location(s)), you get
>> consistent failures that go away when you replace the ram or use
>> another machine. If you have "flakey" ram (bad timing, etc) you get
>> random failures and crashes. f you get the same failure on 2
>> machines with different ram it ain't the ram.....
>
>That's lousy logic there Dennis, and you ought to know that.  Matter of
>fact, the bad RAM I was talking about before was in a group of four 
>machines, and all four were displaying RAM-like failures.  Oddly,
>replacing the RAM cured the problems.
>
>> db
>
>In your particular case, I don't buy the 'bad RAM' problem though.
>Have you considered putting a 'vmstat' binary on the NFS partition
>that you are loading from, and running 'vmstat -m' from the
>holographic shell while the install is going?  Without this sort of
>detail, it's impossible to tell what's going on - I can't reproduce
>your problems; I did an 'everything' install last night using NFS onto
>an 8M 486 (using a locally cut 2.2-STABLE release) and it worked fine.

It seems the only one that fails is "kernel developer"...I can do "everything"
and bin only loads on both machines with 8 meg....if you could try that
it would be cool.

Dennis
>
>-- 
>]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
>]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
>]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
>]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
>]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[
>
>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 07:15:13 1997
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From: Yves Lepage <yves@CC.McGill.CA>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 10:14:56 -0400
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Hello,

I browsed the list archives I could find on the freeBSD web page and
it seems that every time I want to do something with freebsd these days,
I unwillingly pick something that doesn't have support yet.

Now, I am trying to get an ATM adapter that has freebsd support so that I can
bypass that link on my MBone router that's congestioned. I'll be using ATM because
that link on the  MBone router goes to a PIM ATM cloud.

Any idea on how lucky I'll be with this?

Thanks,
Yves Lepage

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 07:28:52 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:23:03 -0400
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: DES Challenge
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Hi, I just thought I'd let everyone know that a "for real", organized
distributed attack on DES is underway (under the terms for the agreement
with the RSA Challenge '97).

So if you feel like contributing to the cause, point your browser at
http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm

There are FreeBSD clients optimized for 486, Pentium, and Pentium Pro!!

Have fun cracking!
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mark Mayo		  				mark@quickweb.com       
 RingZero Comp.  	  		   http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark 

	 finger mark@quickweb.com for my PGP key and GCS code
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
	University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to 
	get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be 
	thought incapable.	-Sir Peter Imbert

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 07:40:11 1997
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To: Stephen Roome <steve@visint.co.uk>
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        Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, hackers@freebsd.org
From: "Louis A. Mamakos" <louie@TransSys.COM>
Subject: Re: 430TX ? 
References: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970411132308.11730L-100000@bagpuss.visint.co.uk> 
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> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Michael Hancock wrote:
> > While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more on
> > memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual bus
> > architecture that makes a significant performance difference.
> 
> This is interesting, CTCM (motherboard benchmarker program) seems to tell 
> me that I can get almost 56MB/s memory bandwidth. With a 66MHz bus clock 
> I can't see how that this figure can improve much. Seeing as Intel seem 
> unlikely to support a 75MHz or 83MHz bus speed then I'd love to know how 
> they intend on doing this.

You could build 2- or 4-way interleaved memory banks, so that you could overlap
sequential memory fetches (like cache line fills).  This would be an
as an alternative to wider memory.  Some systems have *very* wide paths
to memory, approaching the width of a cache line, in fact.  Though I suspect
that it would be "easier" to make I/O and other bus-master access go faster
using the multiple memory bank approach.

This technique certainly isn't new - it's at least 25 years old.

louie



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 07:42:08 1997
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From: mark thompson <thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com>
To: erich@lodgenet.com
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In-reply-to: "erich@lodgenet.com"'s message of Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:04:48 -0500
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   From: "Eric L. Hernes" <erich@lodgenet.com>
   Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 11:04:48 -0500

   Howdy folks,

   I've been tricked into upgrading the linux_lib port, so
   if you've got any libraries you'd like to see incorporated
   send me pointers to 'em now, or wait for the next go-round.

   eric.
   -- 
   erich@lodgenet.com
   http://rrnet.com/~erich erich@rrnet.com


Hey, speaking of linux... after upgrading to 2.2 and installing
linux_lib-2.3, my linux apps no longer seem to be able to read their
current directory (on startup, they make unhappy noises, and decide that
their current directory is root). Affects Wingz and Netscape at least.

I can live with it, but does anybody have ideas?

-mark



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 08:59:21 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:59:43 +0200 (MET DST)
From: David Ramahefason <rama@easynet.fr>
To: security@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Virutal Interfaces how ??
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Hi,

I've seen that aliasing on IP was allowed under FreeBSD,
but How do I specify the name of those Interfaces as on
Linux ??? de0:0-de0:1 etc....

Cheers

|David Ramahefason, rama@easynet.fr,systems@easynet.fr|
|Administrateur Systeme/Reseau, Easynet France SA     |
|Think different Think BSD http://www.FreeBSD.org     |
|Wrap around probs with Python http://www.python.org  |


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 09:01:33 1997
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
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Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:01:25 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <E0wFW3B-0002xO-00@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Apr 10, 97 08:26:53 pm
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Warner Losh wrote:
> 
> In message <1652.860709359@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:
> : > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> : > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is
> : 
> : I'm starting to get a headache. :-)
> 
> I hate to say this, but I kinda like this idea.
> 
> Does somebody have a cononical list of these files so that some brave
> soles can begin to experiment?
> 

	in the spirit of the discussion

	how about creating HERE documents *inside* sysconfig which create
	/etc/resolv.conf, /etc/hosts, /etc/namedb.boot, ......

	the machine configuration can be duplicated (software side at
	least) by xferring that file to another machine.

	the goal is to get everythin that the sysadmin modifies into
	one place.....default configuration would DISABLE this
	creature feature.  lest people hurt themselves each time they boot.
jmb


partial list:   *passwd*, *db, sendamil*, host*,
		named.boot namedb*, aliases, XF86Config,
		adduser.conf, make.conf, fstab, dm.conf, daily,
		weekly, monthly, rc.local, group,......<ack!>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 09:33:48 1997
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From: kta@alien.ru (Tatiana Kichkaylo)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 10:23:08 -0600
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Solved problem with com ports & Mach64.
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.16 (Unregistered)
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Hi!

It's 1997 now, and I think I'm not the first with this problem, but...

>Environment:

Release:        FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE i386 from Walnut Creec CDROM, Jan 1996
Intel motherboard with chipset Triton rev 2 and on-board video Mach64.
Only com1 & com2 present. Address space of com3 & com4 is used by video
card.

>Description: 
	
In boot time, when a kernel probes sio, monitor falls into green mode.
Reason: in /usr/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c in function sioprobe kernel writes
into all likely_com_ports, while some of them are video ports now.

>How-To-Repeat: 

Boot from any kernel with any sio turned on. With all of com ports turned
off booting is Ok.

>Fix: 
		
With /usr/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c

341a342
> #if NSIO>2
342a344,346
> #else
> static Port_t likely_com_ports[] = { 0x3f8, 0x2f8, };
> #endif

I've just decreased the length of this array for sioprobe
(and other functions) never writes to my video ports.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------
kta@alien.ru (Tatiana Kichkaylo)
-----------------------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 09:42:10 1997
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To: David Ramahefason <rama@easynet.fr>
Cc: security@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ?? 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:36:45 -0700
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:59:43 +0200 (MET DST) 
 David Ramahefason <rama@easynet.fr> wrote:

 > I've seen that aliasing on IP was allowed under FreeBSD,
 > but How do I specify the name of those Interfaces as on
 > Linux ??? de0:0-de0:1 etc....

You don't ... you simply do:

	ifconfig de0 alias xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx netmask xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx

...and the new address is stashed in the interfaces address list.

(This is how it works under NetBSD, anyhow, and I wouldn't think FreeBSD
would be any different)

Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 09:42:55 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:45:31 +0100 (BST)
From: Stephen Roome <steve@visint.co.uk>
To: "Louis A. Mamakos" <louie@TransSys.COM>
cc: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>,
        Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>,
        Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX ? 
In-Reply-To: <199704111437.KAA00409@whizzo.transsys.com>
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Louis A. Mamakos wrote:

> > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Michael Hancock wrote:
> > > While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more on
> > > memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual bus
> > > architecture that makes a significant performance difference.
> > 
> > This is interesting, CTCM (motherboard benchmarker program) seems to tell 
> > me that I can get almost 56MB/s memory bandwidth. With a 66MHz bus clock 
> > I can't see how that this figure can improve much. Seeing as Intel seem 
> > unlikely to support a 75MHz or 83MHz bus speed then I'd love to know how 
> > they intend on doing this.
> 
> You could build 2- or 4-way interleaved memory banks, so that you could overlap
> sequential memory fetches (like cache line fills).  This would be an
> as an alternative to wider memory.  Some systems have *very* wide paths
> to memory, approaching the width of a cache line, in fact.  Though I suspect
> that it would be "easier" to make I/O and other bus-master access go faster
> using the multiple memory bank approach.

Well, it makes sense, but since when has PC hardware made sense, assuming 
it's a good idea and they'd go with it would we finally lose the 640K 
base mem business at the same time...

Somehow I doubt it, I can't see Intel et. al finally getting it right for 
a while yet, and would it be a platform that could run Windoze?

Basically what your suggesting looks good, but if Windoze 
95/NT wont run on it will it really happen ?

> 
> This technique certainly isn't new - it's at least 25 years old.

So is having more than 640k memory accessible to your operating system.

--
Steve Roome
Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd.
E: steve@visint.co.uk      M: +44 (0) 976 241 342
T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597    F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 09:47:18 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
cc: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>, Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
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Subject: Re: 430TX ?
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Hi; funny u should mention this, we were just talking about this in my
RTOS class today....

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Michael Hancock wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Is the 430TX chipset recognised/supported yet ?
> > > 
> > > Is this a PCI chipset?
> > 
> > Yes, the "latest" from Intel (advertised as faster than HX and VX).
> 
> While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more on
> memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual bus
> architecture that makes a significant performance difference.

	my instructor claims they separated the cache into instruction
cache and data-cache.....a previously 'discredited' architecture known to
the ancients as 'harvard architecture ( howard aiken )' as opposed to the
traditional 'von neumann' or 'princeton' architecture.... is cache space
relatively cheap these days?

john 

*******************************************************************************
 John Utz	spaz@u.washington.edu
	idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 09:51:01 1997
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To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@freefall.freebsd.org>
cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh), hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:01:25 PDT."
             <199704111601.JAA25847@freefall.freebsd.org> 
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:50:43 -0700
Message-ID: <1928.860777443@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> 	how about creating HERE documents *inside* sysconfig which create
> 	/etc/resolv.conf, /etc/hosts, /etc/namedb.boot, ......

So they'd be regenerated each time you booted up?

Hmmmm.  That's not such a terrible idea, actually, just so long as the
here documents were wrapped around:

	if [ -w /etc/targetfile ]; then
		.. here document which writes on it ...
	fi

So that you could handle the read-only-root case.  I kinda like it!
What do others thing?

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 09:57:05 1997
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To: David Ramahefason <rama@easynet.fr>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ?? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:59:43 +0200."
             <Pine.BSF.3.95.970411175806.20883A-100000@casimir.easynet.fr> 
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:56:40 -0700
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Please don't send messages like this to security - this is in no way
security related and two mailing lists was overkill in any case.
Thanks.

As to your question, just read the man page for ifconfig, eh? :)

					Jordan

> Hi,
> 
> I've seen that aliasing on IP was allowed under FreeBSD,
> but How do I specify the name of those Interfaces as on
> Linux ??? de0:0-de0:1 etc....
> 
> Cheers
> 
> |David Ramahefason, rama@easynet.fr,systems@easynet.fr|
> |Administrateur Systeme/Reseau, Easynet France SA     |
> |Think different Think BSD http://www.FreeBSD.org     |
> |Wrap around probs with Python http://www.python.org  |
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 10:15:52 1997
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From: "William R. Somsky" <somsky@dirac.phys.washington.edu>
Message-Id: <199704111715.KAA01708@dirac.phys.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:15:45 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <199704110029.RAA13816@freefall.freebsd.org> from "owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org" at Apr 10, 97 05:29:45 pm
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> > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is

Um...  Maybe I'm wrong, tell me if I am, but I thought that,
at least at one time, one of the virtues of /var was that it
was meant to be a "semi-scratch" space, containing spool
directories and logs and such, but nothing critical --
if it got filled or trashed, you perhaps lost mail messages
and print jobs and such, but didn't destroy your system.  If
the traditional /etc local system modifications files go there,
it loses all these nice properties.  But then, I guess I have
seen things like yp put there, which would be nasty to lose.

Was this ever the case?  Or have I completely misinterpreted
what /var was meant for?  I'm confused...  Please, enlighten
me a bit, if you can (tall order, I know :-).

________________________________________________________________________
Dr. William R. Somsky			      somsky@phys.washington.edu
Department of Physics, Box 351560		 B432 Physics-Astro Bldg
Univ. of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-1560		    206/616-2954

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 10:43:57 1997
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Message-Id: <199704111723.KAA11656@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
To: steve@visint.co.uk (Stephen Roome)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:23:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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> > PCI chipsets are configured at BIOS POST time.
> >
> > You do not need chipset specific drivers.
> 
> It might be useful if FreeBSD knew that only X amount of mem was 
> cacheable, don't know why, but it strikes that it *could* optimise where 
> stuff gets stored that way.

Yes, but it doesn't *require* this information to function, so the
chipset is irrelevant to the current code base.


> > The SMP stuff wants chipset specific drivers because it wants to count
> > bridges on machines with broken MP-tables in ROM/RAM/FLASH counts of
> > the number of PCI bridges (so far: one motherboard vendor).
> 
> Which one ? This might be a good thing to know before I buy a motherboard!


The Tyan S1668 motherboard has incorrect mptable data.

As a result, the SMP kernel (which runs in APIC I/O mode in order to
virtual wire the interrupts instead of causing them to be serviced by
a single processor -- assymetrically) causes one of the PCI cards to
be serviced by the ISA interrupt code, which confuses the PCI interrupt
sharing code.

There is a "known rogue" kludge option for compiling an SMP kernel for
the board.


If you are considering buying an SMP motherboard, you should scan the
SMP list archives before you buy.  There are a number of motherboards
which do not wire the clock interrupt to the APIC, and as such, greatly
complicate the interrupt handling code that needs to be used.  It's a
big lose to get one of these boards and run it in "mixed" mode like
that.  If I had my druthers, the boards would be on a "don't buy" list
somewhere.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 10:48:36 1997
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199704111658.SAA19544@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:58:27 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: imp@village.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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About readonly root partition and relocation of /etc

> > : > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> > : > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is

> > Does somebody have a cononical list of these files so that some brave
> > soles can begin to experiment?
> > 
> 
> 	in the spirit of the discussion
> 
> 	how about creating HERE documents *inside* sysconfig which create
> 	/etc/resolv.conf, /etc/hosts, /etc/namedb.boot, ......

the idea is neat but only applicable to a limited number of small files I am
afraid. And it would be a great problem for large/binary/mutable files
to get updated into the sysconfig (which, at that point, would look
like a shar file!)

> partial list:   *passwd*, *db, sendamil*, host*,
> 		named.boot namedb*, aliases, XF86Config,
> 		adduser.conf, make.conf, fstab, dm.conf, daily,
> 		weekly, monthly, rc.local, group,......<ack!>

the list is pretty long. Really, I believe the best option is to 

  * symlink /etc into /var/etc
  * provide a dummy /var/etc in the root partition (that would
    exist anyways in systems without a separate /var), so that a failure
    in mounting /var does not prevent the system to come up (possibly
    standalone);
  * after mounting root, the kernel tries to mount /var (possibly
    readonly, such as it is done for root) before giving control
    to /etc/rc . Failures to mount /var are not considered critical.

    The location of /var can be:
    1. written into the kernel, possibly updated via kernelconfig or
       other options;
    2. acquired using bootp (diskless machines, using the kernel bootp
       stuff originally submitted by Tor Egge which I patched and
       resubmitted a few months ago);
    3. derived from the kernel by scanning UFS partitions on the same
       disk where the root fs is located, looking if it was last mounted
       as /var (it is written in the superblock).

To me the above does not look too hard to implement, nor too
confusing for people used to the standard location of things. The
code for mounting /var is probably the same as for mounting /, with
minor changes in the pathnames. As for the three ways for locating
the /var partition, all of them require just a few lines of code.

Things retain their nice place in /etc except that the whole /etc
is now a symlink. All files in /etc are real, not symlinks, so that
many utilities (such as those to rebuild password databases etc.)
won't complain because of symlinks...

Oh, one more thing. In order to have a real readonly root partition,
one should probably give the same treatment to /root and /dev, i.e. let
them live in /var

Comments ?

	Cheers
	Luigi
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 10:58:42 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:11 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <19970411102303.56819@vinyl.quickweb.com>
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Mark Mayo wrote:

> Hi, I just thought I'd let everyone know that a "for real", organized
> distributed attack on DES is underway (under the terms for the agreement
> with the RSA Challenge '97).

	Actually, this has been going on since March 18th, 1997...major old
news...

> 
> So if you feel like contributing to the cause, point your browser at
> http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm

	Ummmm...you might want to check out http://www.vex.net/rsacrack,
since we've been working at that "organized distributed attack" for the past,
what, month and a half now?  And, proudly, FreeBSD constitutes almost 41% of
the 231 hosts so far working at it :)

OS Breakdown
FreeBSD 80 (40.4%), Windows95 36 (12.8%), Linux 32 (9.8%), IRIX 23 (9.3%), 
Solaris 15 (7.5%), WindowsNT 12 (6.1%), SunOS 9 (0.6%), NetBSD 9 (0.9%), 
BSD/OS 7 (1.3%), AIX 3 (7.1%), OS/2 2 (0.2%), Minix 1 (0.1%), SCO 1 (0.8%), 
DigitalUNIX 1 (3.1%)

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 10:58:50 1997
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199704111708.TAA19618@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:08:25 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, imp@village.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <1928.860777443@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 11, 97 09:50:24 am
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> > 	how about creating HERE documents *inside* sysconfig which create
> > 	/etc/resolv.conf, /etc/hosts, /etc/namedb.boot, ......
> 
> So they'd be regenerated each time you booted up?
> 
> Hmmmm.  That's not such a terrible idea, actually, just so long as the
> here documents were wrapped around:
> 
> 	if [ -w /etc/targetfile ]; then
> 		.. here document which writes on it ...
> 	fi
> 
> So that you could handle the read-only-root case.  I kinda like it!
> What do others thing?

see my other posting on the subject. It has some value, expecially
for small files such as resolv.conf, host.conf , hosts, ... but
when it comes to large or binary files you are screwed.

Besides, you can burn yourself with this feature when you make a
change to the /etc/xxx file and forget to disable writing to it...

	Luigi
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:00:38 1997
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X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96
To: Stephen Roome <steve@visint.co.uk>
cc: "Louis A. Mamakos" <louie@TransSys.COM>,
        Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>,
        Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>,
        Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX ? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:45:31 BST."
             <Pine.BSF.3.91.970411174115.12860E-100000@bagpuss.visint.co.uk> 
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:59:13 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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>From The Desk Of Stephen Roome :
> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Louis A. Mamakos wrote:
> 
> > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Michael Hancock wrote:
> > > > While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more 
on
> > > > memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual bu
s
> > > > architecture that makes a significant performance difference.
> > > 

I talked to an Intel representative at WinHEC 97 and politely told him
that they are shooting themselves on the foot with the issue of memory
bandwith --- Interestingly , he agreed and his response was we are
working hard to solve this issue. I believe he was sincere so lets wait
and see what happens over the next six months.

As far as I can tell , there are two camps to solve the memory bandwith 
bottleneck, the DRAM folks and the RAMBUS folks. As to who is going to 
win I don't know.

	Enjoy,
	Amancio





From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:01:33 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704111741.KAA11690@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Solved problem with com ports & Mach64.
To: kta@alien.ru (Tatiana Kichkaylo)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:41:22 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199704100450.LAA23340@robin.alien.ru> from "Tatiana Kichkaylo" at Apr 10, 97 10:23:08 am
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> It's 1997 now, and I think I'm not the first with this problem, but...
> 
> >Environment:
> 
> Release:        FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE i386 from Walnut Creec CDROM, Jan 1996
> Intel motherboard with chipset Triton rev 2 and on-board video Mach64.
> Only com1 & com2 present. Address space of com3 & com4 is used by video
> card.

Actually, the standard for the interface implemented by the Mach32 and
Mach64 chips require that they ignore the ports unless they are selected
into a graphic mode that uses them.  The implementation is buggy.


> >Description: 
> 	
> In boot time, when a kernel probes sio, monitor falls into green mode.
> Reason: in /usr/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c in function sioprobe kernel writes
> into all likely_com_ports, while some of them are video ports now.

Yes, this is a destructive probe.


> >How-To-Repeat: 
> 
> Boot from any kernel with any sio turned on. With all of com ports turned
> off booting is Ok.
> 
> >Fix: 
> 		
> With /usr/src/sys/i386/isa/sio.c
> 
> 341a342
> > #if NSIO>2
> 342a344,346
> > #else
> > static Port_t likely_com_ports[] = { 0x3f8, 0x2f8, };
> > #endif
> 
> I've just decreased the length of this array for sioprobe
> (and other functions) never writes to my video ports.

This was discussed on -current under the name "Mach32".

The typical "fix" is to turn off the ports until you can rebuild a
kernel that options out COM4: (you can leave the COM3: probe in; it
won't upset the chips).

The actual fix is to go to the ATI WWW site and download the Mach32
assembly language detection code, and incorporate the detection as
a negative probe for COM4:.

I actually posted the ATI code in the previous discussion of the
problem.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:06:52 1997
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To: yves@CC.McGill.CA
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Reply-To: hutton@ISI.EDU
Subject: Re: ATM adapters 
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:14:56 -0400.
             <199704111414.KAA03125@maelstrom.cc.mcgill.ca> 
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 11:05:55 PDT
From: Anne Hutton <hutton@ISI.EDU>
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> 
Yves,

there are FreeBSD ATM adapter drivers....specifically, for the Adaptec and 
Efficient cards. 

They are not, as yet, part of the FreeBSD supported distribution but they are 
available from 
ftp://dworkin.wustl.edu/dist/bsd/bsdatm1.4.tar.gz.


Hope this helps,



Anne 


> 
> I browsed the list archives I could find on the freeBSD web page and
> it seems that every time I want to do something with freebsd these days,
> I unwillingly pick something that doesn't have support yet.
> 
> Now, I am trying to get an ATM adapter that has freebsd support so that I can
> bypass that link on my MBone router that's congestioned. I'll be using ATM because
> that link on the  MBone router goes to a PIM ATM cloud.
> 
> Any idea on how lucky I'll be with this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Yves Lepage



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:08:04 1997
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To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, imp@village.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:08:25 +0200."
             <199704111708.TAA19618@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> 
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:07:15 -0700
Message-ID: <20865.860782035@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Besides, you can burn yourself with this feature when you make a
> change to the /etc/xxx file and forget to disable writing to it...

I think the idea would be that you'd be discouraged from writing
changes there.  There is precedent - you're technically not supposed
to modify your sendmail.cf, for example, but rather build it from
source using the convenient feature macros.

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:11:21 1997
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To: David Ramahefason <rama@easynet.fr>
CC: security@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ??
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David Ramahefason wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've seen that aliasing on IP was allowed under FreeBSD,
> but How do I specify the name of those Interfaces as on
> Linux ??? de0:0-de0:1 etc....
> 
> Cheers
> 
> |David Ramahefason, rama@easynet.fr,systems@easynet.fr|
> |Administrateur Systeme/Reseau, Easynet France SA     |
> |Think different Think BSD http://www.FreeBSD.org     |
> |Wrap around probs with Python http://www.python.org  |

they don't have individual names..
all addresses apply equally to the interface..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:13:10 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:13:06 -0500
From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
Cc: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>,
        Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>,
        Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
References: <Pine.SV4.3.95.970411165742.6102A-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp> <Pine.OSF.3.95.970411094154.31682B-100000@becker2.u.washington.edu>
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On Apr 04, 1997 at 09:46:26AM -0700, John Utz wrote:
>
> 	my instructor claims they separated the cache into instruction
> cache and data-cache.....a previously 'discredited' architecture known to

Discredited?  Since when?  All other things being equal, separate I+D caches
almost always outperform merged caches.  


> traditional 'von neumann' or 'princeton' architecture.... is cache space
> relatively cheap these days?

Memory (and hence caches) have gotten much cheaper recently, but that doesn't
mean that multiplying the size of your cache is instantly going to give you
improved performance.
--
Jonathan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:17:19 1997
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Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ??
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:59:43 +0200 (MET DST) David Ramahefason wrote:

> I've seen that aliasing on IP was allowed under FreeBSD,
> but How do I specify the name of those Interfaces as on
> Linux ??? de0:0-de0:1 etc....

If alias is on same IP network:
# ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.255 alias

If alias is on different IP network:
# ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.0 alias


Bye,
Mike
<mike@NetworX.ie>
---




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:24:41 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704111804.LAA11736@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Installation question (2.2.1)
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:04:04 -0700 (MST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, skb@icey.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <E0wFW61-0002y7-00@rover.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Apr 10, 97 08:29:49 pm
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> In message <199704110024.JAA07373@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes:
> : If you possibly can, avoid purchasing one, or if you have just
> : purchased one, try to exchange it for a 'real' SCSI version.
> 
> Rumor has it that you can make the parallel version into the SCSI
> version, but I've not met anybody that can confirm this rumor.
> Anybody here know?


I have a portable SCSI JAZ drive that I use for OS porting to other
platforms while leaving their original boot drive contents intact.
At $100/1G, it's a good deal for this type of thing (enough room
for a NetBSD or OpenBSD kernel tree and a FreeBSD tree at the same
time along with X, etc., and I can mount the original drive when I
get to the point where it's time to implement the logical to physical
translation layer for the native partitioning scheme and load native
executables for ABI compatability).

It came with a SCSI-to-Parallel converter that has a type 2 SCSI
connector on one end and a parallel port on the other end; it's
about the size of a standard gender changer.  They cost $49
seperately at Egghead software, and are a deal if you have a
bunch of SCSI hardware in shoeboxes (like I do) and want to connect
a CDROM or a tape drive, or whatever, to a SCSI-challenged machine.

I would be very surprised if their "Parallel port" Zip drive did not
have the same thing internally, and have a SCSI connector on the drive
hardware itself.

For $49 (you could probably get a "deal" at the same time you
purchase the SCSI Zip drive if you implied the purchase was
conditional), it's worth having the SCSI version of the drive
instead.


The original poster probably *needs* the parallel port feature; all
my machines with hard drives (including the Amiga 1000 and the PS/2
machine) are SCSI, so I've never really had to use the thing yet.
He may not be as lucky.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:43:33 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704111822.LAA11791@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: ATM adapters
To: yves@CC.McGill.CA
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:22:55 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704111414.KAA03125@maelstrom.cc.mcgill.ca> from "Yves Lepage" at Apr 11, 97 10:14:56 am
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> I browsed the list archives I could find on the freeBSD web page and
> it seems that every time I want to do something with freebsd these days,
> I unwillingly pick something that doesn't have support yet.
> 
> Now, I am trying to get an ATM adapter that has freebsd support so
> that I can bypass that link on my MBone router that's congestioned.
> I'll be using ATM because that link on the  MBone router goes to a
> PIM ATM cloud.
> 
> Any idea on how lucky I'll be with this?

Anne Hutton posted this to -hackers on 21 March 1997:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Applied Research Lab (ARL) of Washington University and the ATOMIC-2
Project at USC/ISI are pleased to announce the availability of a BSD 
device driver for the Adaptec 590x series of PCI ATM host adaptors (eg 
ANA-5940)

Written by Chuck Cranor of Washington University's ARL (chuck@ccrc.wustl.edu),
the "MIDWAY" ATM device driver originally supported Efficient Network's
PCI ATM 155Mbps cards under FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. Working with 
Anne Hutton of USC/ISI, Chuck has recently added support for the Adaptec 
series of 155Mbps PCI ATM cards to the driver.

The driver is currently in use at Washington University for several
projects include the MARS video server project, the IP/ATM integration
project, and the "QoS Guarantees Within Endsystems" project (see
http://www.arl.wustl.edu/arl for details on these projects). USC/ISI is
currently using the driver as part of their ATOMIC-2 project
(http://www.isi.edu/atomic2/) for a PC-based ATM-ATOMIC gateway. 
The driver is also being used by researchers at Nokia, Sony, and 
Georgia Tech among other places.
 
The driver is fully integrated into the NetBSD and OpenBSD source trees
and can be obtained from those project's ftp servers.  The FreeBSD
version of the driver [partly contributed by Kenjiro Cho <kjc@csl.sony.co.jp>] 
can be obtained from ftp://dworkin.wustl.edu/dist/bsd/bsdatm1.4.tar.gz
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea why this did not show up in your search.  The Washington
University projects are apparently making progress at a high rate of
speed.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 11:57:34 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704111837.LAA11819@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: somsky@dirac.phys.washington.edu (William R. Somsky)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:37:41 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704111715.KAA01708@dirac.phys.washington.edu> from "William R. Somsky" at Apr 11, 97 10:15:45 am
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> Um...  Maybe I'm wrong, tell me if I am, but I thought that,
> at least at one time, one of the virtues of /var was that it
> was meant to be a "semi-scratch" space, containing spool
> directories and logs and such, but nothing critical --
> if it got filled or trashed, you perhaps lost mail messages
> and print jobs and such, but didn't destroy your system.  If
> the traditional /etc local system modifications files go there,
> it loses all these nice properties.  But then, I guess I have
> seen things like yp put there, which would be nasty to lose.
> 
> Was this ever the case?  Or have I completely misinterpreted
> what /var was meant for?  I'm confused...  Please, enlighten
> me a bit, if you can (tall order, I know :-).

The invention of /var by Sun was to support read-only mounting
of / by moving *variable* per-system data to a known location.

The intent of this was to support diskless, dataless, and OSless
configurations from a central boot server, without needing a
seperate root/boot image per machine which the server services.

Novell actually ran a large number of Sun client machines this
way from a central server -- large enough that the disk savings
ran into hundreds of thousands of dollars (how much did a 600M
SCSI drive cost in 1992? 8-)).

This knit well with each engineer using his local disk space for
swap and source trees instead of uselessly duplicating OS files,
and with one of the common servers being the common CVS repository.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 12:00:58 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704111839.LAA11836@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:39:47 -0700 (MST)
Cc: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, imp@village.org,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <20865.860782035@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 11, 97 11:07:15 am
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> There is precedent - you're technically not supposed
> to modify your sendmail.cf, for example, but rather build it from
> source using the convenient feature macros.

That should be 'using the "convenient" feature macros'...


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 12:22:49 1997
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From: Christiaan Keet (systems) <trig@netlink.co.uk>
Message-Id: <199704111924.UAA02103@bastion.netlink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ??
In-Reply-To: <ECS9704111855B@NetworX.ie> from Michael Ryan at "Apr 11, 97 06:47:55 pm"
To: mike@NetworX.ie
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:24:49 +0100 (BST)
Cc: rama@easynet.fr, security@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Michael Ryan wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:59:43 +0200 (MET DST) David Ramahefason wrote:
> 
> > I've seen that aliasing on IP was allowed under FreeBSD,
> > but How do I specify the name of those Interfaces as on
> > Linux ??? de0:0-de0:1 etc....
> 
> If alias is on same IP network:
> # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.255 alias
> 
> If alias is on different IP network:
> # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.0 alias

We use this quite extensively, but is there any way of de-configuring
one of these aliases without rebooting the machine?   With Linux you
can just do an 'ifconfig ed0 down' I believe. 

Christiaan

-- 
- Christiaan Keet - trig@netlink.net.uk - Senior Systems Developer - Netlink -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 13:08:14 1997
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From: Michael Searle <searle@longacre.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m7944BAA9@longacre.demon.co.uk>
To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX
References: <199704111647.JAA00625@freefall.freebsd.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:30:54 BST
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owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org wrote:

> Hi; funny u should mention this, we were just talking about this in my
> RTOS class today....

> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Michael Hancock wrote:

>>>>> Is the 430TX chipset recognised/supported yet ?

>>>> Is this a PCI chipset?

>>> Yes, the "latest" from Intel (advertised as faster than HX and VX).

>> While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more
>> on memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual
>> bus architecture that makes a significant performance difference.

> my instructor claims they separated the cache into instruction cache and
> data-cache.....a previously 'discredited' architecture known to the
> ancients as 'harvard architecture ( howard aiken )' as opposed to the
> traditional 'von neumann' or 'princeton' architecture.... is cache space
> relatively cheap these days?

I thought the Pentium Pro did that as well though.

-- 
Michael Searle - csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 13:15:12 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "az.com" <yankee@lucy.az.com>
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Subject: Multilink PPP
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What built in or third party software exists for multilink PPP on freeBSD?

Are there artificial kernel restrictions that due not allow multiple 
routes to the same destination?


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 13:23:55 1997
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To: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
cc: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: DES Challenge 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:58:11 -0300."
             <Pine.NEB.3.96.970411145036.235J-100000@thelab.hub.org> 
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 13:23:23 -0700
Message-ID: <14845.860790203@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> 	Ummmm...you might want to check out http://www.vex.net/rsacrack,
> since we've been working at that "organized distributed attack" for the past,
> what, month and a half now?  And, proudly, FreeBSD constitutes almost 41% of
> the 231 hosts so far working at it :)

Actually, most of us actually gave up on that effort in disgust. :-)
I should probably go remove about 10 of the machines there which
I personally know are no longer running the crack.

The key server was just hosed too much of the time to make it
worth continuing.

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 13:27:07 1997
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Subject: Re: 430TX ?
In-Reply-To: <199704111759.KAA04490@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Apr 11, 97 10:59:13 am"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:24:52 -1000 (HST)
Cc: steve@visint.co.uk, louie@TransSys.COM, michaelh@cet.co.jp,
        avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
From: "David Langford" <langfod@dihelix.com>
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>I talked to an Intel representative at WinHEC 97 and politely told him
>that they are shooting themselves on the foot with the issue of memory
>bandwith --- Interestingly , he agreed and his response was we are
>working hard to solve this issue. I believe he was sincere so lets wait
>and see what happens over the next six months.
>
>As far as I can tell , there are two camps to solve the memory bandwith 
>bottleneck, the DRAM folks and the RAMBUS folks. As to who is going to 
>win I don't know.
>	Amancio

What I really dont understand is why HP and ALR(?) seem to be the only
folks doing memory busses larger than 64 bits wide. One would
think that a 128bit 4-way interleaved motherboard would really help 
the crappy memory performance of Intel CPU based systems.

(That and why mohterboard makers dont put caches on Pentium Pro motherboards
 to interface the slow main memory and the faster on chip cache.)

*sigh

-David Langford (awaiting FreeBSD Alpha with glee)
 langfod@dihelix.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 13:36:03 1997
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To: Ian Kallen <spidaman@well.com>
Subject: Re: Message Catalog System 
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:57:31 PDT."
		<Pine.GSO.3.93.970410235144.27859A-100000@well.com> 
References: <Pine.GSO.3.93.970410235144.27859A-100000@well.com>  
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:35:47 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <Pine.GSO.3.93.970410235144.27859A-100000@well.com> Ian Kallen writes:
: It's apparently tcsh -- I'm using tcsh-6.07.02 from ports.  The problem
: goes away with csh but, eh, I'd really rather use tcsh.  Here's the trace
: from opening an xterm (does that help?):
:    224 ktrace   NAMI  "/usr/X11R6/bin/xterm"
: 
: The error message shows up if I'm running as root or as a regular user.
: Any ideas how to make it go away?

Hmmmm, I think I was more interested in a ktrace of the xterm process
itself, not how it was forked.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 13:50:03 1997
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To: Joe Beiter <jwb@xioa.cosmic.org>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: keyboard locking w/X11 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:07:00 EDT."
             <199704111307.JAA01598@xioa.cosmic.org> 
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:30:17 +0100
From: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
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> 
> I think this is a bug. Sorry if this isn't proper reporting procedure. Feel
> free to query if there are questions:
> 
> Hardware: DELL Laptop XP90 32MB ram
> 2.2.1-RELEASE
> XFree86 3.2
> 
> After running X11, the keyboard locks up. Must telnet in and reboot
> to clear it up. Seems to be related to the sco console. Compiled
> kernel with the pcvt console and problem went away. This problem did
> not appear until upgrading from 2.1.0 to 2.2.1

Can you try running "setcon" ?  The source is on www.freebsd.org/~brian.
All it does is switch virtual terminals, but with pre-release versions
of 2.2, it woke the keyboard up.

"setcon" is part of "vidcontrol" (-s option) in -current, but I never
put it into 2.2 because if the opposition I received at the time.

> - JoeB
> 
> :---==@==---==@==---==@==---:
> Joseph Beiter                  Hacking's just another word for nothing 
> jwb@cosmic.org                 left to kludge.

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.demon.co.uk/>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 13:56:14 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:56:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: stox@enteract.com
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: DES Challenge
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970411142842.23369A-100000@stox.sa.enteract.com>
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Kenneth P. Stox wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> 
> > 	Ummmm...you might want to check out http://www.vex.net/rsacrack,
> > since we've been working at that "organized distributed attack" for the past,
> > what, month and a half now?  And, proudly, FreeBSD constitutes almost 41% of
> > the 231 hosts so far working at it :)
> 
> File Not Found
> 
> The requested URL /rsacrack was not found on this server.
> 
> Are you sure that is the right URL ?

	Damn, should have checked it first:

	http://www.vex.net/~rasmus/rsa

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 14:26:55 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:26:24 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: DES Challenge 
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> > 	Ummmm...you might want to check out http://www.vex.net/rsacrack,
> > since we've been working at that "organized distributed attack" for the past,
> > what, month and a half now?  And, proudly, FreeBSD constitutes almost 41% of
> > the 231 hosts so far working at it :)
> 
> Actually, most of us actually gave up on that effort in disgust. :-)
> I should probably go remove about 10 of the machines there which
> I personally know are no longer running the crack.
> 
> The key server was just hosed too much of the time to make it
> worth continuing.

	Have you tried the bovine proxy stuff?  My machine hasn't had
to sit idle waiting for anything since I switched...we're currently
ranked 2nd on the bovine stats, just behind best.net, with 3rd not even
coming *close* to competing...and there are approx 6 proxy servers 
currently running...

	There is a link to bovine off of the vex.net pages...

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 14:39:15 1997
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From: Robert Eckardt <roberte@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de>
Message-Id: <199704112138.XAA01430@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
Subject: Re: Problem with Trio64V+ rev. 541 and XFree863.2/3.2.A
In-Reply-To: <199704101514.RAA16697@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from Luigi Rizzo at "10. Apr. 97 17:14:16"
To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:38:24 +0200 (MESZ)
Cc: XFree86@XFree86.Org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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It was Luigi Rizzo who wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am having a problem in using the XFree86 (3.1.2, 3.2, 3.2.A) with
> my new S3 card under FreeBSD. The card is recognised by the XF86_S3
> server (3.2) as
> 
>     (--) S3: PCI: Trio32/64 rev 54, Linear FB @ 0xec000000
>     (--) S3: chipset:   Trio64V+ rev. 541
>     (--) S3: chipset driver: newmmio
>     (--) S3: card type: PCI
> 
> but then I get the following two error messages:
> 
>     S3: Cannot read colourmap from VGA.  Will restore with default
>     S3: Cannot read colourmap from VGA.  Will restore with default


That's what I get for me with XFree86 Version 3.2 (FBSD-2.2_BETA):

(--) S3: PCI: base address not correctly aligned or address conflict
                base address changed from 0xf4000000 to 0xf8000000
(--) S3: PCI: Trio32/64 rev 54, Linear FB @ 0xf8000000
(**) S3: Option "power_saver"
(--) S3: card type: PCI
(--) S3: chipset:   Trio64V+ rev. 541
(--) S3: chipset driver: newmmio
(--) S3: videoram:  2048k
(--) S3: Ramdac type: s3_trio64
(--) S3: Ramdac speed: 135

(Note the warning about the base address.)

The card is a ELSA Winner 1000 Trio/V.


> and, when exiting X, the screen becomes totally black (although the
> system is up and running, and I can restart X or do other commands at
> will.
> 
> Other than that, X seems to work well and the image is pretty stable.
> 
> Any idea on what might be the problem, and how to fix it (maybe with
> some option in XF86Config ?)


That's what I have in /etc/XF86Config, i.e. nothing (special):

Section "Device"
    Identifier  "ELSA-TRIO"
    VendorName  "ELSA"
    BoardName   "WINNER 1000TRIO/V"
    #VideoRam    2048
EndSection

Section "Screen"
    Driver      "accel"
    Device      "ELSA-TRIO"
    Monitor     "Belinea"
    Subsection "Display" 
        Depth       8
        Option      "power_saver"
        Modes       "1280x1024" "1600x1200i" "1600x1200" "640x480" "800x600" "1024x768" 
        ViewPort    288 216
        Virtual     1600 1200
    EndSubsection
 :
 :

> 	Thanks
> 	Luigi Rizzo
> -----------------------------+--------------------------------------
> Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
> email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
> tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
> fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
> _____________________________|______________________________________
> 


-- 
Robert Eckardt                \\ FreeBSD -- solutions for a large universe.(tm)
RobertE@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de \\       What do you want to boot tomorrow ?(tm)
http://WWW.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de/~roberte
For PGP-key finger roberte@gluon.MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 15:11:43 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:09:50 -0700
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
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To: "az.com" <yankee@lucy.az.com>
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Subject: Re: Multilink PPP
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az.com wrote:
> 
> What built in or third party software exists for multilink PPP on freeBSD?
> 
> Are there artificial kernel restrictions that due not allow multiple
> routes to the same destination?

see ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/incoming

look for the files starting with "mpd"


this is a multilink ppp daemon.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 15:19:12 1997
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        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ??
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Christiaan Keet (systems) wrote:
> 
> Michael Ryan wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:59:43 +0200 (MET DST) David Ramahefason wrote:
> >
> > > I've seen that aliasing on IP was allowed under FreeBSD,
> > > but How do I specify the name of those Interfaces as on
> > > Linux ??? de0:0-de0:1 etc....
> >
> > If alias is on same IP network:
> > # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.255 alias
> >
> > If alias is on different IP network:
> > # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.0 alias
> 
> We use this quite extensively, but is there any way of de-configuring
> one of these aliases without rebooting the machine?   With Linux you
> can just do an 'ifconfig ed0 down' I believe.
> 
> Christiaan
> 
> --
> - Christiaan Keet - trig@netlink.net.uk - Senior Systems Developer - Netlink -

ifconfig xx0 <address-to-delete> delete

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 15:26:34 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:24:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" <ejs@bfd.com>
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> (That and why mohterboard makers dont put caches on Pentium Pro motherboards
>  to interface the slow main memory and the faster on chip cache.)

Can't imagine that a L3 cache would be much use unless it's SEVERAL Meg
in size.  Since the PPro has at least a 256K L2 cache, the L3 cache would
hurt unless it's quite a bit larger than this.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 15:50:42 1997
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Well, regarding my NFS hang-ups to HP/UX 9.05 and Sunos 4.1.3
systems (this is 2.2.1 as of April 8th).

I replaced my 3c509 with a 3c900 and was able to demonstrate
the same lock up.

It appears to be related to a readdir(), as only ls -l causes
the file system hang.  A 'cat' of large files (quite large)
doesn't seem to have the same effect.

I set the readdirsize down to 1024 with the -I argument on 
the mount, but that didn't seem to affect it.

	- Dave Rivers -



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 15:50:45 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:49:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ian Kallen <spidaman@well.com>
To: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
cc: Joe Beiter <jwb@xioa.cosmic.org>, hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: keyboard locking w/X11 
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I have a Dell Latitude XPi and was having problems that were fixed by the
patch below (ymmv, so be sure you can back out... if you want the
debugging patch mentioned that I'd tried first, I'll send that too but it 
should be in the "hackers" archive on freefall).  Be sure you have psm0
turned on...

good luck!


>From yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Fri Apr 11 15:42:22 1997
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:57:30 +0900
From: Kazutaka YOKOTA <yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp>
To: Ian Kallen <spidaman@well.com>
Cc: freebsd-mobile@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org,
    yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp
Subject: Re: (Dell Latitude) psm0/sc0 conflicts killing X? 


>Yes, I got almost the exact same messages, including 
>     sc0: kbdc is LOCKED!! (scintr)

Now, may I assume you got the messages in the following order, the
return code was "fa" ("zz" in the fifth line) and the keyboard did NOT
freeze?

    sc0: enabling tty intr. (set_keyboard)
    sc0: about to send command and data (set_keyboard)
    sc0: kbdc is LOCKED!! (scintr)
    sc0: kbdc is LOCKED!! (scintr)
    sc0: command:xx data:yy ret:zz (set_keybard)
                                ~~
    sc0: kbdc is LOCKED!! (scintr)

>well, if you have a fix, I'd be happy to test it for you :)  Shall I
>revert to the original syscons.c or will patching it with the debugging
>stuff be OK?

Please revert to the original syscons.c and apply the following patch.
It is known to work, that is, kbdcontrol can change key repeat rate
and the X server doesn't lock up the keyboard. 

This patch doesn't generate debug messages, so it will be more
suitable for daily use than the previous one.

Kazu

--- syscons.c-dist	Mon Mar  3 10:09:00 1997
+++ syscons.c	Mon Mar 17 08:02:35 1997
@@ -3110,11 +3111,12 @@
 
     /* disable the keyboard and mouse interrupt */
     s = spltty();
+#if 0
     c = get_controller_command_byte(sc_kbdc);
     if ((c == -1) 
 	|| !set_controller_command_byte(sc_kbdc, 
             kbdc_get_device_mask(sc_kbdc),
-            KBD_ENABLE_KBD_PORT | KBD_DISABLE_KBD_INT
+            KBD_DISABLE_KBD_PORT | KBD_DISABLE_KBD_INT
                 | KBD_DISABLE_AUX_PORT | KBD_DISABLE_AUX_INT)) {
 	/* CONTROLLER ERROR */
         kbdc_lock(sc_kbdc, FALSE);
@@ -3129,15 +3131,21 @@
      * by the lock flag set via `kbdc_lock()'
      */
     splx(s);
+#endif
 
-    send_kbd_command_and_data(sc_kbdc, command, data);
+    if (send_kbd_command_and_data(sc_kbdc, command, data) != KBD_ACK)
+        send_kbd_command(sc_kbdc, KBDC_ENABLE_KBD);
 
+#if 0
     /* restore the interrupts */
     if (!set_controller_command_byte(sc_kbdc,
             kbdc_get_device_mask(sc_kbdc),
 	    c & (KBD_KBD_CONTROL_BITS | KBD_AUX_CONTROL_BITS))) { 
 	/* CONTROLLER ERROR */
     }
+#else
+    splx(s);
+#endif
     kbdc_lock(sc_kbdc, FALSE);
 }
 







On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Brian Somers wrote:
> > 
> > I think this is a bug. Sorry if this isn't proper reporting procedure. Feel
> > free to query if there are questions:
> > 
> > Hardware: DELL Laptop XP90 32MB ram
> > 2.2.1-RELEASE
> > XFree86 3.2
> > 
> > After running X11, the keyboard locks up. Must telnet in and reboot
> > to clear it up. Seems to be related to the sco console. Compiled
> > kernel with the pcvt console and problem went away. This problem did
> > not appear until upgrading from 2.1.0 to 2.2.1
> 
> Can you try running "setcon" ?  The source is on www.freebsd.org/~brian.
> All it does is switch virtual terminals, but with pre-release versions
> of 2.2, it woke the keyboard up.
> 
> "setcon" is part of "vidcontrol" (-s option) in -current, but I never
> put it into 2.2 because if the opposition I received at the time.
> 
> > - JoeB
> > 
> > :---==@==---==@==---==@==---:
> > Joseph Beiter                  Hacking's just another word for nothing 
> > jwb@cosmic.org                 left to kludge.
> 
> -- 
> Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
>       <http://www.awfulhak.demon.co.uk/>
> Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....
> 
> 
> 
> 

The next interface will not be another desktop metaphor.... Ian Kallen ....
http://www.well.com/user/spidaman/ ....the revolution will not be televised.
===== TO RECEIVE MY PGP KEY, SEND MAIL TO spidey-pgp-info@well.com =======


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 15:52:59 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:52:20 -0500 (EST)
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> > Besides, you can burn yourself with this feature when you make a
> > change to the /etc/xxx file and forget to disable writing to it...
> 
> I think the idea would be that you'd be discouraged from writing
> changes there.  There is precedent - you're technically not supposed
> to modify your sendmail.cf, for example, but rather build it from
> source using the convenient feature macros.
> 
> 					Jordan
Speaking of which.....
Looking into /etc/sendmail.cf (2.2-Release),It reads:
_____________
Mprog,          P=/bin/sh, F=lsDFMoqeu9, S=10/30, R=20/40, D=$z:/,
                T=X-Unix,
                A=sh -c $u
_____________
I have not heard of cracking attempts to sendmail RECENTLY, but it IS
recommended to use smrsh (included with sendmail) on all versions. Why
aren't we including this? (yes, there is a macro to do this)
I always end up hand editing this, not to mention that I also add a mail
user without privileges to avoid running sendmail as root.

--Pedro.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 16:28:22 1997
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To: Michael Searle <searle@longacre.demon.co.uk>
cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:30:54 -0000."
             <m7944BAA9@longacre.demon.co.uk> 
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:26:31 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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>From The Desk Of Michael Searle :
> owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org wrote:
> 
> > Hi; funny u should mention this, we were just talking about this in my
> > RTOS class today....
> 
> > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Michael Hancock wrote:
> 
> >>>>> Is the 430TX chipset recognised/supported yet ?
> 
> >>>> Is this a PCI chipset?
> 
> >>> Yes, the "latest" from Intel (advertised as faster than HX and VX).
> 
> >> While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more
> >> on memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual
> >> bus architecture that makes a significant performance difference.
> 
> > my instructor claims they separated the cache into instruction cache and
> > data-cache.....a previously 'discredited' architecture known to the
> > ancients as 'harvard architecture ( howard aiken )' as opposed to the
> > traditional 'von neumann' or 'princeton' architecture.... is cache space
> > relatively cheap these days?
> 
> I thought the Pentium Pro did that as well though.
> 

Yeap, which is why I mentioned that companies are looking into faster memories
besides the obvious ways of increasing bandwith --- wider memory, 
memory interleaving, etc...

	Cheers,
	Amancio




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 16:38:44 1997
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From: "Benn Horton" <bennh@lineone.net>
Subject: Keyboard is disabled sometimes at boot up
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Hello,

I am using FreeBSD 2.1.7 Release and I have a problem where my keyboard
locks up on booting to the console login,
 and I do a reboot to use the keyboard.
What is causing this?

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 16:49:11 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 16:43:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Coleman <chris@bb.cc.wa.us>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: mcAffee Anti Virus
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.3.94.970411164155.8061A-100000@aries.bb.cc.wa.us>
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I was checking out the Anti-virus programs for FreeBSD by McAffee
and ran it on my system.  It showed that I had SEVERAL files infected with
a SYSLOCK virus.  Any one know about this stuff?

Is it worth buying, and is SYSLOCK a real threat?

Please let me know

Thanks

Christopher J. Coleman (chris@aries.bb.cc.wa.us)
Computer Support Technician I  (509)-766-8873
Big Bend Community College  Internet Instructor
FreeBSD Book Project:  http://vinyl.quickweb.com/~chrisc/book.html
Disclaimer: Even Though it has My Name on it, Doesn't mean I said it.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 16:56:28 1997
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From: Jim Bryant <jbryant@tfs.net>
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Subject: X.25 drivers????
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has anyone ever implimented the bezerkeley X.25 drivers?

how about any kind of kernel level AX.25 drivers???

any plans to do so???

jim
--
All opinions expressed are mine, if you   | "I will not be pushed, stamped,
think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or
radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!!     | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner"
  jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 17:01:18 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 01:19:54 +0200
From: Harald Koenig <root@tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de>
To: Robert Eckardt <roberte@MEP.Ruhr-Uni-Bochum.de>
Cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, XFree86@XFree86.Org,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Problem with Trio64V+ rev. 541 and XFree863.2/3.2.A
References: <199704101514.RAA16697@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <199704112138.XAA01430@ghost.mep.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
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On Apr 11, Robert Eckardt wrote:

> That's what I get for me with XFree86 Version 3.2 (FBSD-2.2_BETA):
> 
> (--) S3: PCI: base address not correctly aligned or address conflict
>                 base address changed from 0xf4000000 to 0xf8000000
> (--) S3: PCI: Trio32/64 rev 54, Linear FB @ 0xf8000000

hmm, this should *not* happen for Trio64V+ chips.  either this is a bug
in your PCI bios,  a hardware bug or some problem in the S3 server
in PCI detection (but this seems to work fine for every other PC out there...

please send the output of "scanpci -f" after reboot in text mode 
and "X -verbose >& outfile" 

> Section "Device"
>     Identifier  "ELSA-TRIO"
>     VendorName  "ELSA"
>     BoardName   "WINNER 1000TRIO/V"
>     #VideoRam    2048
> EndSection
> 
> Section "Screen"
>     Driver      "accel"
>     Device      "ELSA-TRIO"
>     Monitor     "Belinea"
>     Subsection "Display" 
>         Depth       8
>         Option      "power_saver"

this option has to go into the device section!  
but it won't explain anything...

>         Modes       "1280x1024" "1600x1200i" "1600x1200" "640x480" "800x600" "1024x768" 
>         ViewPort    288 216
>         Virtual     1600 1200
>     EndSubsection


Harald
--
All SCSI disks will from now on                     ___       _____
be required to send an email notice                0--,|    /OOOOOOO\
24 hours prior to complete hardware failure!      <_/  /  /OOOOOOOOOOO\
                                                    \  \/OOOOOOOOOOOOOOO\
                                                      \ OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO|//
Harald Koenig,                                         \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Inst.f.Theoret.Astrophysik                              //  /     \\  \
koenig@tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de                     ^^^^^       ^^^^^

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 17:02:47 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:56:55 -0400
From: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>
To: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
Cc: Mark Mayo <mark@quickweb.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: DES Challenge
References: <19970411102303.56819@vinyl.quickweb.com> <Pine.NEB.3.96.970411145036.235J-100000@thelab.hub.org>
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On Fri, Apr 11, 1997 at 02:58:11PM -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Mark Mayo wrote:
> 
> > Hi, I just thought I'd let everyone know that a "for real", organized
> > distributed attack on DES is underway (under the terms for the agreement
> > with the RSA Challenge '97).
> 
> 	Actually, this has been going on since March 18th, 1997...major old
> news...
> 
> > 
> > So if you feel like contributing to the cause, point your browser at
> > http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm
> 
> 	Ummmm...you might want to check out http://www.vex.net/rsacrack,
> since we've been working at that "organized distributed attack" for the past,
> what, month and a half now?  And, proudly, FreeBSD constitutes almost 41% of
> the 231 hosts so far working at it :)

Well, let's look at is this way: the vex.net effort has 231 hosts working,
and is cracking at a rate of 23 million keys/sec. The DESCHALL effort has
1619 clients, and is cracking at a rate of 30 trillion keys/sec... 
In 25 days, DESCHALL has tested 348305938710528 keys, and if the current
rate of new hosts coming online continues, the code will be cracked in under
a year, perhaps even less. In other words, DESCHALL is outpacing you
by a HUGE margin.

Maybe you should coorinate your effort with DESCHALL, and this thing
might actually happen! It would be so neat to see "the Net" crack DES
in a matter of months!

-Mark

> Marc G. Fournier                                
> Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
> primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mark Mayo		  				mark@quickweb.com       
 RingZero Comp.  	  		   http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark 

	 finger mark@quickweb.com for my PGP key and GCS code
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
	University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to 
	get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be 
	thought incapable.	-Sir Peter Imbert

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 17:37:20 1997
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Subject: Re: 430TX ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970411152235.27533A-100000@harlie.bfd.com> from "Eric J. Schwertfeger" at "Apr 11, 97 03:24:22 pm"
To: ejs@bfd.com (Eric J. Schwertfeger)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:35:05 -1000 (HST)
Cc: langfod@dihelix.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, steve@visint.co.uk,
        louie@TransSys.COM, michaelh@cet.co.jp, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au,
        terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
From: "David Langford" <langfod@dihelix.com>
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Eric J. Schwertfeger
>
>
>> (That and why mohterboard makers dont put caches on Pentium Pro motherboards
>>  to interface the slow main memory and the faster on chip cache.)
>
>Can't imagine that a L3 cache would be much use unless it's SEVERAL Meg
>in size.  Since the PPro has at least a 256K L2 cache, the L3 cache would
>hurt unless it's quite a bit larger than this.

Right. If you look at the Mips, Alpha, PowerPC, Sparc, etc.. They all
have 1-2Meg caches on the higher end systems.

Granted there are some major differences in architecture differences
but those differences are beginning to get fewer these days as the
RISC chips get more CISC and the CISC chips get more RISC and
harvard architecure is being used more...... Anyway :)

Main point is that I think even motherboard makers could be more helpful
in improving memory usage. I would pay a premium for a high bandwidth 
motherboard, but I dont see a point in spending $750 for motherboards that
perform just like the $200 boards...

err [RANT off] :)

-David Langford
 langfod@dihelix.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 17:53:32 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:41:24 -0700
From: Pedro Giffuni <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
CC: chris@acme1.ruhr.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, haas@lion.de
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
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dennis wrote:
> 
> I think that any vendor who does not have a developer on the hackers list
> isn't
> committed enough to recognize...... The hackers list is the best registry you
> can have, and although there is a lot of irrelevant banter (as there is on
> any list), it gives a philosophical understanding of what is going on rather
> that just snippets of effectual data.
>
I don't think so. A vendor won't survive by selling FreeBSD-only
products (at least no yet :-)), and keeping a developer tied to a
platform and lots of irrelevant messages will not lower their costs.

> Checklists are almost always inadequate, although I suppose required for
> any automated attempt at implementing such a scenario. I don't know how
> you would implement "kernel", as I cant imagine that you could quantify
> the impact of a seemingly trivial kernel change on any particular product.
> 
> I would suggest that you encourage vendors to participate in freebsd's future
> rather than just read about it. 

Easy to say ....the hacker's list has always been available.

--Pedro.

> 
> Dennis


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 18:18:21 1997
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To: "David Langford" <langfod@dihelix.com>
cc: ejs@bfd.com (Eric J. Schwertfeger), steve@visint.co.uk, louie@TransSys.COM,
        michaelh@cet.co.jp, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, terry@lambert.org,
        hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX ? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:35:05 -1000."
             <199704120035.OAA01374@caliban.dihelix.com> 
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:17:09 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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>From The Desk Of "David Langford" :
> Main point is that I think even motherboard makers could be more helpful
> in improving memory usage. I would pay a premium for a high bandwidth 
> motherboard, but I dont see a point in spending $750 for motherboards that
> perform just like the $200 boards...


It is call lets charge to the hilt for our hardware mistakes .

Oh, Don't forget that 64bit PCI based motherboards have not come out yet
so guess what? 8)

	Cheers,
	Amancio



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 18:26:58 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:23:23 -0700
From: Pedro Giffuni <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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To: Chris Coleman <chris@bb.cc.wa.us>
CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus
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Chris Coleman wrote:
> 
> I was checking out the Anti-virus programs for FreeBSD by McAffee
> and ran it on my system.  It showed that I had SEVERAL files infected with
> a SYSLOCK virus.  Any one know about this stuff?
> 
I don't know, but I went into McAfee's Mall and I didn't see any
specific FreeBSD version. If you're using a version for Linux, it
probably confused signatures. A Linux version will only clean Linux
software.
> Is it worth buying, and is SYSLOCK a real threat?
> 
I have never heard of FreeBSD viruses, except for the reported trojans
in freefall on a security notification. (BTW, no details on that ever
came out). But a multitasking computer, in a networked
environment...it's matter of time. 
Simply be careful on what you run as root, and use more software that
comes with source code :).

Pedro.


> Thanks
> 
> Christopher J. Coleman (chris@aries.bb.cc.wa.us)
> Computer Support Technician I  (509)-766-8873
> Big Bend Community College  Internet Instructor
> FreeBSD Book Project:  http://vinyl.quickweb.com/~chrisc/book.html
> Disclaimer: Even Though it has My Name on it, Doesn't mean I said it.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 18:36:49 1997
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To: "David Langford" <langfod@dihelix.com>
Cc: ejs@bfd.com (Eric J. Schwertfeger), hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
        steve@visint.co.uk, louie@transsys.com, michaelh@cet.co.jp,
        avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX ? 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:29:56 -0700
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:35:05 -1000 (HST) 
 "David Langford" <langfod@dihelix.com> wrote:

 > Right. If you look at the Mips, Alpha, PowerPC, Sparc, etc.. They all
 > have 1-2Meg caches on the higher end systems.

...1-2M is a small cache, IMO.  We have an Alpha with a 4M cache, and are
getting some with 16M cache..

Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 19:00:32 1997
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cc: mike@NetworX.ie, rama@easynet.fr, security@FreeBSD.ORG,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ?? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:24:49 BST."
             <199704111924.UAA02103@bastion.netlink.co.uk> 
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> Michael Ryan wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:59:43 +0200 (MET DST) David Ramahefason wrote:
> > 
> > > I've seen that aliasing on IP was allowed under FreeBSD,
> > > but How do I specify the name of those Interfaces as on
> > > Linux ??? de0:0-de0:1 etc....
> > 
> > If alias is on same IP network:
> > # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.255 alias
> > 
> > If alias is on different IP network:
> > # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.0 alias
> 
> We use this quite extensively, but is there any way of de-configuring
> one of these aliases without rebooting the machine?   With Linux you
> can just do an 'ifconfig ed0 down' I believe. 

"down" stops the interface.  Try

ifconfig ed0 inet x.x.x.x delete

> Christiaan
> 
> -- 
> - Christiaan Keet - trig@netlink.net.uk - Senior Systems Developer - Netlink -

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.demon.co.uk/>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 19:28:25 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections
To: danny@panda.hilink.com.au (Daniel O'Callaghan)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:20:05 +1000 (EST)
Cc: adam@veda.is, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970411155937.10264m-100000@panda.hilink.com.au> from "Daniel O'Callaghan" at Apr 11, 97 04:02:28 pm
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In some mail from Daniel O'Callaghan, sie said:
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Adam David wrote:
> 
> > This is also weird...
> > 
> > 'sh /etc/rc.firewall' invoked from a telnet or rlogin connection will break
> > the connection, but if it is invoked from the console instead the network
> > login connection stays open.
> 
> Have you read my earlier e-mail?  This occurs because if you leave out 
> the '-q' option 'flush' says "Flushed all rules".  But when the tcp 
> packets come to be sent, and error "Permission denied" is return, so 
> telnetd/rlogind quite, kernel resets connection and the rest of 
> rc.firewall is probably not executed.

Hmmm, if it returned EHOSTUNREACH, would that be as bad as EPERM ?

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 19:44:59 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:37:31 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704110018.RAA10243@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 10, 97 05:18:14 pm
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In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
> 
> > Lets see...firstly, there is <osreldate.h> which is particular to FreeBSD.
> > Including that file always requires #ifdef's for FreeBSD.  Now you want
> > to introduce <sys/osreldate.h>.  That is going to be conditional on what
> > is in <osreldate.h>.  THen code which currently checks for __FreeBSD_version
> > must be adapted to see if __FreeBSD_sysversion exists.
> 
> 1)	<sys/xxx.h> files can *never* depend on <xxx.h> files.

> 2)	You only have to check the version if you want to protect
> 	against a crash better than you currently do.

> > Why weren't __FreeBSD_version & __FreeBSD_sysversion (IF you need both) put
> > in <sys/param.h> ?  For starters, one doesn't need to worry about extra
> > include files, although removing <osreldate.h> would not be good, now.
> 
> I don't know; I've never used <osreldate.h>.  It really only applies
> to the installation insteance of the toolset, and the instances of the
> API enacted by the standard (not system) include files, IMO.
> 
> It seems to me that it's a concession to vendors who don't want to check
> the BSD manifest constants across BSD platforms.

Given this, are there any objections from anyone about putting
__FreeBSD_sysversion in <sys/param.h> ?

As for the BSD symbols, I use them wherever possible.

> You can't possibly have a system component that reference <osreldate.h>,
> since it's not accessable in the kernel build environment (this is the
> problem he is talking about addressing).

Hmmm, can __FreeBSD_sysversion be made the same value as __FreeBSD_version ?
(or vice versa)

> > Further still, there is the uselessness of __FreeBSD__ in some
> > circumstances.
> 
> That would be those vendor circumstances where vendors want all BSD's
> to standardize on the same interfaces.

The problem with __FreeBSD__ is that it is defined by cc - or gcc/pgcc.

That is, it depends on what system the compiler is built, not what OS
it is running on.

Problem being, it impacts every compilation thereafter.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 19:50:19 1997
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: <1928.860777443@time.cdrom.com> 
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:39:55 +1000
From: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:50:43 -0700  "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote:

> > 	how about creating HERE documents *inside* sysconfig which create
> > 	/etc/resolv.conf, /etc/hosts, /etc/namedb.boot, ......
> 
> So they'd be regenerated each time you booted up?
> 
> Hmmmm.  That's not such a terrible idea, actually, ...

Ouch!  Yikes!  NOOOOOOOOOOO!

That way lies the errors and madness of AIX's ODM database-thingy and
general confusion for all.

Some configuration files just have to be grandfathered, most
especially those that are often controlled or supplied by a network
administrator.

Giles

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 19:51:00 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: proff@suburbia.net
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:44:19 +1000 (EST)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <19970411002900.15347.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Apr 11, 97 10:28:59 am
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In some mail from proff@suburbia.net, sie said:
> 
> > You are deceiving yourselves if you think you are just making life
> > easier for everyone.  Any change implies more work from 3rd party
> > developers to accomodate that change.
> 
> Right but look at the alternative (attached below). You can quite
> rightly say that this horror is required regardless. But the reality
> is that the present does indeed become the past and in two years
> time one can expect users to be running at least what we have as
> -current now. That is why it is important to create an environment
> that accommodates change as soon as possible, so during the course
> of the next two years monstrosity below can be reduced to:
> 
> #include <sys/param.h>
[...]

Here here.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 19:51:07 1997
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To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: <Pine.A41.3.95.970411173738.36236A-100000@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:13:26 +1000
From: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:52:20 -0500 (EST)  pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co wrote:

> Mprog,          P=/bin/sh, F=lsDFMoqeu9, S=10/30, R=20/40, D=$z:/,
>                 T=X-Unix,
>                 A=sh -c $u
> _____________
> I have not heard of cracking attempts to sendmail RECENTLY,

These days they're just a given.  Only worth a comment when someone
breaks (publically) the latest released version.

>  but it IS
> recommended to use smrsh (included with sendmail) on all versions. Why
> aren't we including this?

Because this requires (as you know) that vacation, procmail and
whatever else people use from .forward files be installed in the one
directory that smrsh will run programs from.  This will break existing
installations.

I recommend that we make this change for the 3.0 release.

Giles

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 20:20:07 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:19:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: The Devil Himself <fullermd@narcissus.ml.org>
To: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-Reply-To: <199704120139.LAA10681@topaz.nemeton.com.au>
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On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Giles Lean wrote:

> 
> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:50:43 -0700  "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote:
> 
> > > 	how about creating HERE documents *inside* sysconfig which create
> > > 	/etc/resolv.conf, /etc/hosts, /etc/namedb.boot, ......
> > 
> > So they'd be regenerated each time you booted up?
> > 
> > Hmmmm.  That's not such a terrible idea, actually, ...
> 
> Ouch!  Yikes!  NOOOOOOOOOOO!
> 
> That way lies the errors and madness of AIX's ODM database-thingy and
> general confusion for all.
> 
> Some configuration files just have to be grandfathered, most
> especially those that are often controlled or supplied by a network
> administrator.
> 
> Giles
> 

I have to agree; I just became/got stuffed into being admin for an AIX
machine, and I don't even want to think about it all.  I look in /etc, and
just about everything's symlinked all over the disk!!  What happens in one
of those other partitions gets corrupted, and that's where the file you
need to fix it actually is?? Not to mention, just trying to ls -fl, you
can barely read it all.

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
|FreeBSD is good.      FreeBSD is our friend.     UNIX is our god.|
*Micro$oft is bad.                      Micro$oft causes problems.*
|MicroBSD???      I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!|
|"I hate quotes in signature files"            :-}  MAtthew Fuller|
*fullermd@narcissus.ml.org                          FreeBSD junkie*
|http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd     Westminster College|
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 20:58:44 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704120358.NAA24460@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: dropped packet on de0
In-Reply-To: <19970411030808.40430@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> from John-Mark Gurney at "Apr 11, 97 03:08:08 am"
To: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:28:20 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.res.ray.com,
        freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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John-Mark Gurney stands accused of saying:
> Michael Smith scribbled this message on Apr 11:
> > ping -f only sends at 100 packets/second; try 'ping -l 100000' to get
> > ping to really push, or use one of the TCP throughput testing programs
> > in the ports collection.
> 
> not acording to the man page:
>      -f      Flood ping.  Outputs packets as fast as they come back or one
>              hundred times per second, whichever is more.  For every

Sorry, right answer on my part, but wrong logic.  Ping -f waits for an
answer to each packet before it sends the next one, to a maximum of
10ms, so it will never fill the output queue.  Ping -l on the other
hand just sends like crazy.

>   John-Mark

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 21:03:26 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:59:30 -0700
From: Pedro Giffuni <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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To: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
References: <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au>
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Giles Lean wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 17:52:20 -0500 (EST)  pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co wrote:

> > I have not heard of cracking attempts to sendmail RECENTLY,
> 
> These days they're just a given.  Only worth a comment when someone
> breaks (publically) the latest released version.
> 
> >  but it IS
> > recommended to use smrsh (included with sendmail) on all versions. Why
> > aren't we including this?
> 
> Because this requires (as you know) that vacation, procmail and
> whatever else people use from .forward files be installed in the one
> directory that smrsh will run programs from.  This will break existing
> installations.
> 
vacation yes, but AFAIK procmail won't be affected. "ln -s" would
unbreak existing installations :).
 
> I recommend that we make this change for the 3.0 release.
>
I also use the unprivileged mailer, both options were suggested in an
old CERT advisory. Furthermore, I turn sendmail on from inetd under
tcp-wrapper control. Crackers got tired of trying my big box (I think
8-)).

Pedro.  


> Giles

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 21:10:16 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:10:07 -0500
From: Dan Nelson <dnelson@emsphone.com>
To: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: NFS problems - it doesn't appear to be ep0.
References: <199704112012.QAA16156@lakes.water.net>
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In the last episode (Apr 11), Thomas David Rivers said:
> 
> Well, regarding my NFS hang-ups to HP/UX 9.05 and Sunos 4.1.3
> systems (this is 2.2.1 as of April 8th).
> 
> I replaced my 3c509 with a 3c900 and was able to demonstrate
> the same lock up.
> 
> It appears to be related to a readdir(), as only ls -l causes
> the file system hang.  A 'cat' of large files (quite large)
> doesn't seem to have the same effect.
> 
> I set the readdirsize down to 1024 with the -I argument on 
> the mount, but that didn't seem to affect it.

I've seen this problem on 3com cards myself - both 3c509 (ep) and 3c905
(vx) cards.  I get packet overruns, RX overruns, and fifo underruns
when trying NFS accesses.  With tcpdump on another machine, I can see
that only the first two or three fragments of an 8K NFS packet ever get
out.  3com's spec sheet for the 3c905XL 100BT card states it has only
an 8K buffer, partitioned by default at 4K/4K transmit/receive!

I don't think the -I option will let readdirs get any smaller than 4096
bytes anyway; I think it's because of the #define NFS_DIRBLKSIZ 4096
line in /sys/nfs/nfs.h.  I tried lowering this number to 1024 and
rebuilding the kernel, but NFS became unreliable and I had to up it
back to 4096.  If you have a card that can't send out 3 full-size IP
fragments in a row, you just won't be able to make it work.

I solved my particular problem by getting Intel EtherExpress Pro/100B
cards, which have worked flawlessly.  The 3com cards are now in DOS
machines.

	-Dan Nelson
	dnelson@emsphone.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 21:41:19 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704120440.OAA29855@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970411094154.31682B-100000@becker2.u.washington.edu> from John Utz at "Apr 11, 97 09:46:26 am"
To: spaz@u.washington.edu (John Utz)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:10:10 +0930 (CST)
Cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, terry@lambert.org,
        hackers@FreeBSD.org
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John Utz stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more on
> > memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual bus
> > architecture that makes a significant performance difference.
> 
> 	my instructor claims they separated the cache into instruction
> cache and data-cache.....a previously 'discredited' architecture known to
> the ancients as 'harvard architecture ( howard aiken )' as opposed to the
> traditional 'von neumann' or 'princeton' architecture.... is cache space
> relatively cheap these days?

Split I&D cache is nothing 'discredited' (cf. Sparc, Mips, Motorola),
and full-Havard CPUs have been around all along too (all of the m68k
family, for example).

Cache space has nothing to do with it; the basic idea is that code and
data are not normally tightly mixed (instruction operands count as
'code') and thus having seperate caches for them can be a Good Thing.

It Intel are hailing this as some sort of 'breakthrough', then that's
just one more reason to laugh loudly at them.

>  John Utz	spaz@u.washington.edu

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 22:49:00 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704120548.PAA08378@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ??
In-Reply-To: <199704111924.UAA02103@bastion.netlink.co.uk> from Christiaan Keet at "Apr 11, 97 08:24:49 pm"
To: trig@netlink.co.uk
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:18:29 +0930 (CST)
Cc: mike@NetworX.ie, rama@easynet.fr, security@FreeBSD.ORG,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Christiaan Keet stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > If alias is on different IP network:
> > # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.0 alias
> 
> We use this quite extensively, but is there any way of de-configuring
> one of these aliases without rebooting the machine?   With Linux you
> can just do an 'ifconfig ed0 down' I believe. 

ifconfig ed0 delete

will remove one alias at a time.  Not perhaps as nice as being able to
delete a nominated alias, but it can be adequate.

> Christiaan

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Apr 11 23:04:21 1997
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 23:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: sorry bout the 'discredited architecture remark'Re: 430TX ?
In-Reply-To: <199704120440.OAA29855@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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Hi Michael;

This is the second call i have received on my snide reference to harvard
architecture as a 'discredited architecture'. It was an overly biased
comment. i just think that separate instruction and data memory is a
mistake because u wind up with too much of one and not enuf of the other
too often.

nonetheless, it obviously works, so i will slink off now.....


On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote:

> John Utz stands accused of saying:
> > > 
> > > While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more on
> > > memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual bus
> > > architecture that makes a significant performance difference.
> > 
> > 	my instructor claims they separated the cache into instruction
> > cache and data-cache.....a previously 'discredited' architecture known to
> > the ancients as 'harvard architecture ( howard aiken )' as opposed to the
> > traditional 'von neumann' or 'princeton' architecture.... is cache space
> > relatively cheap these days?
> 
> Split I&D cache is nothing 'discredited' (cf. Sparc, Mips, Motorola),
> and full-Havard CPUs have been around all along too (all of the m68k
> family, for example).
> 
> Cache space has nothing to do with it; the basic idea is that code and
> data are not normally tightly mixed (instruction operands count as
> 'code') and thus having seperate caches for them can be a Good Thing.
> 
> It Intel are hailing this as some sort of 'breakthrough', then that's
> just one more reason to laugh loudly at them.
> 
> >  John Utz	spaz@u.washington.edu
> 
> -- 
> ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
> ]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
> ]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
> ]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
> ]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[
> 

*******************************************************************************
 John Utz	spaz@u.washington.edu
	idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 00:13:56 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 03:13:47 -0400
To: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
From: "Kevin P. Neal" <kpneal@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
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At 01:13 PM 4/11/97 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote:
>On Apr 04, 1997 at 09:46:26AM -0700, John Utz wrote:
>>
>> 	my instructor claims they separated the cache into instruction
>> cache and data-cache.....a previously 'discredited' architecture known to
>
>Discredited?  Since when?  All other things being equal, separate I+D caches
>almost always outperform merged caches.  

Don't you just love university profs who teach their opinion, and they
call it "fact".

Then they don't teach how they came up with their opinion, so the student
graduates with a bunch of stuff in his/her head and doesn't really "get it".

CC line trimmed.
--
XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci.     -   House of Retrocomputing
XCOMM  mailto:kpneal@pobox.com              -   http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/
XCOMM  kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu              Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates:
XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!"


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 00:41:11 1997
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From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk <dk@dog.farm.org>
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To: rssh@cki.ipri.kiev.ua
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
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In article <334E1FEE.1BC7@cki.ipri.kiev.ua> you wrote:
> Warner Losh wrote:
> > 
> > In message <1652.860709359@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:
> > : > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> > : > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is
> > :
> > : I'm starting to get a headache. :-)
> > 
> > I hate to say this, but I kinda like this idea.
> > 
> > Does somebody have a cononical list of these files so that some brave
> > soles can begin to experiment?

> I think, exists some standarts.
>  SIUC, POSIX

s/SIUC/SVID/ ? That's System V Interface Definition...  I don't 
think it defines and names within file system...

> I don't know, are they defined canonical filenames,
> but I think, that yes. (Sorry, but i have
> no time for web-surfing now)

>  So, can anybody put a links to the standarts
> (from altavista or yahoo) and determinate this
> staff ?

I don't know about POSIX much, but judging from my experience,
I can tell you:

There _cannot_ be a standard under which Solaris, SunOS, AIX, HP-UX, 
SCO, Digital Unix, FreeBSD and Linux all comply.   The set intersection
is _empty_.

It looks to me that those standards do not exist.

resolv.conf, for example, is pure BIND-isms.  (host.conf can be even FreeBSDism with its format -
compare that on Linux.  service.switch (sendmail).  nsswitch.conf (Solaris).  svc.conf(?)(OSF).)
etc.

The idea of having read-only root filesystem and separate configuration information 
has its merit, but some files have to be there or you loose look-and-feel compatibility
with whatever Unices we still have it.

Union or overlap mount idea with symlinks can be neat, though.

How about absolutely basic /etc which re-mounts /etc partion on top of itself
and re-executes boot scripts?   I don't think its a good thing for a standard configuration, though.

--
"Standards don't make things work. Work makes things work. 
 Good standards document working things."  -- Mike O'Dell

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 01:50:25 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 05:50:13 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: CanLink - Chris Phillips <phillipc@canlink.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org, rsacrack@vex.net
Subject: Re: [RSA] Bovine...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.93.970411192011.22802D-100000@rockwell>
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, CanLink - Chris Phillips wrote:

> 
> 
> So, what is the latest?  I've seen alot of the stuff, and don't run my
> rc5 client anymore since I have not been able to find the right stuff to
> hook to (there doesn't appear to be a list of steps 1 to 5 of what to do
> anywhere, other than grab this client and run it).
> 
> Can someone point me at the right web page and the right keyserver?
> 
> I have a few win95 machines in the office and a sparc or two... :) 

	Seems to me where we are failing is that the web page at
vex.net is so out of date as to be almost useless :(  For starters, the
pages point ppl at genx.net still, which is a total waste of time.  Then
the bovine pointer is pretty much hidden at the bottom of the page :(

	Someone just started talking about the DESCHALL effort on the
freebsd mailing lists, and, quite frankly, its difficult to argue against
the guy's logic...DESCHALL seems to be an equivalent to genx, but, from what
I've been able to tell, less...competititive.  (and you have to go through
some stupid password authentication procedure just to get the clients :( )

	To check out the bovine stuff, which does the proxy servers, check
out:

	http://bovine.st.hmc.edu

	They have complete stats there on the effort, and they pretty much
seem to be what has taken over for genx, and they've done a much better and
more organized job of it (and you don't need to be password authenticated
to get the clients)

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 03:53:00 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:51:59 +1000
From: David Nugent <davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Cc: trig@netlink.co.uk, mike@NetworX.ie, rama@easynet.fr, security@FreeBSD.ORG,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ??
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On Sat Apr 12 15:18:29 EST 1997, Michael Smith writes:
> Christiaan Keet stands accused of saying:
> > > 
> > > If alias is on different IP network:
> > > # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.0 alias
> > 
> > We use this quite extensively, but is there any way of de-configuring
> > one of these aliases without rebooting the machine?   With Linux you
> > can just do an 'ifconfig ed0 down' I believe. 
> 
> ifconfig ed0 delete
> 
> will remove one alias at a time.

And starts with the primary IP. :-)

> Not perhaps as nice as being able to delete a nominated alias,
> but it can be adequate.

ifconfig ed0 <ip> -alias
                  ^

works fine.

Regards,

David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia
Voice +61-3-9791-9547  Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507  3:632/348@fidonet
davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 04:16:49 1997
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Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ??
In-Reply-To: <199704120548.PAA08378@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Apr 12, 97 03:18:29 pm"
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:51:45 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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> Christiaan Keet stands accused of saying:
> > > 
> > > If alias is on different IP network:
> > > # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.0 alias
> > 
> > We use this quite extensively, but is there any way of de-configuring
> > one of these aliases without rebooting the machine?   With Linux you
> > can just do an 'ifconfig ed0 down' I believe. 
> 
> ifconfig ed0 delete
> 
> will remove one alias at a time.  Not perhaps as nice as being able to
> delete a nominated alias, but it can be adequate.
> 
> > Christiaan

Or you can use this undocumented option:

	ifconfig ed0 -alias ipaddr

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 06:41:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:38:31 -0400
To: Pedro Giffuni <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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At 11:41 AM 4/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>dennis wrote:
>> 
>> I think that any vendor who does not have a developer on the hackers list
>> isn't
>> committed enough to recognize...... The hackers list is the best
registry you
>> can have, and although there is a lot of irrelevant banter (as there is on
>> any list), it gives a philosophical understanding of what is going on
rather
>> that just snippets of effectual data.
>>
>I don't think so. A vendor won't survive by selling FreeBSD-only
>products (at least no yet :-)), and keeping a developer tied to a
>platform and lots of irrelevant messages will not lower their costs.

What does selling Freebsd-only products have to do with anything?
And who said anything about lowering costs. There are (at least) 2
strategies for selling product...there's cheap wine and fine wine. If 
you are looking for vendors to sell cheap wine for freebsd, then you
are correct.

db
>
>> Checklists are almost always inadequate, although I suppose required for
>> any automated attempt at implementing such a scenario. I don't know how
>> you would implement "kernel", as I cant imagine that you could quantify
>> the impact of a seemingly trivial kernel change on any particular product.
>> 
>> I would suggest that you encourage vendors to participate in freebsd's
future
>> rather than just read about it. 
>
>Easy to say ....the hacker's list has always been available.

Then perhaps there is a different reason that commercial vendors stay away
from
FreeBSD?

db

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 06:50:36 1997
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From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199704121311.JAA19644@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!emsphone.com!dnelson, ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers
Subject: Re: NFS problems - it doesn't appear to be ep0.
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Dan Nelson writes:
> In the last episode (Apr 11), Thomas David Rivers said:
> > 
> > Well, regarding my NFS hang-ups to HP/UX 9.05 and Sunos 4.1.3
> > systems (this is 2.2.1 as of April 8th).
> > 
> > I replaced my 3c509 with a 3c900 and was able to demonstrate
> > the same lock up.
> > 
> > It appears to be related to a readdir(), as only ls -l causes
> > the file system hang.  A 'cat' of large files (quite large)
> > doesn't seem to have the same effect.
> > 
> > I set the readdirsize down to 1024 with the -I argument on 
> > the mount, but that didn't seem to affect it.
> 
> I've seen this problem on 3com cards myself - both 3c509 (ep) and 3c905
> (vx) cards.  I get packet overruns, RX overruns, and fifo underruns
> when trying NFS accesses.  With tcpdump on another machine, I can see
> that only the first two or three fragments of an 8K NFS packet ever get
> out.  3com's spec sheet for the 3c905XL 100BT card states it has only
> an 8K buffer, partitioned by default at 4K/4K transmit/receive!
> 
	...
> I solved my particular problem by getting Intel EtherExpress Pro/100B
> cards, which have worked flawlessly.  The 3com cards are now in DOS
> machines.
> 
> 	-Dan Nelson
> 	dnelson@emsphone.com
> 

 Yes, but, this exact hardware worked flawlessly in 2.1.5.   So,
I'm betting something in 2.2.1 is tickling this problem...

	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 07:18:04 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:17:04 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: Pedro Giffuni <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
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On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, dennis wrote:

> Then perhaps there is a different reason that commercial vendors stay away
> from
> FreeBSD?

	Because its a free, non-commercially supported product with nobody
to rant and rave at if there is a problem?

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 07:58:09 1997
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To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@freefall.freebsd.org>
CC: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
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Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:
> 
> Warner Losh wrote:
> >
> > In message <1652.860709359@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:
> > : > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> > : > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is
> > :
> > : I'm starting to get a headache. :-)
> >
> > I hate to say this, but I kinda like this idea.
> >
> > Does somebody have a cononical list of these files so that some brave
> > soles can begin to experiment?
> >
> 
>         in the spirit of the discussion
> 
>         how about creating HERE documents *inside* sysconfig which create
>         /etc/resolv.conf, /etc/hosts, /etc/namedb.boot, ......
> 
>         the machine configuration can be duplicated (software side at
>         least) by xferring that file to another machine.
> 
>         the goal is to get everythin that the sysadmin modifies into
>         one place.....default configuration would DISABLE this
>         creature feature.  lest people hurt themselves each time they boot.
> jmb
> 
> partial list:   *passwd*, *db, sendamil*, host*,
>                 named.boot namedb*, aliases, XF86Config,
>                 adduser.conf, make.conf, fstab, dm.conf, daily,
>                 weekly, monthly, rc.local, group,......<ack!>

 O, I again. I think, that /etc/sysconfig can be quite small.

Better write some script, such as admintool in SCO

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 08:18:36 1997
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Subject: FreeBSD pros (was Re: linux 128 MB limit)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970411111840.1099J-100000@localhost> from Doug White at "Apr 11, 97 11:18:47 am"
To: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:35:45 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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> On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Christoph Kukulies wrote:
> 
> > Does the limitation of the linux kernel to 128 MB Ram still exist?
> 
> Whoops, wrong list...

You mean I should have asked in -hackers ?
OK, anyone knowing - I'm seeking for further pros for FreeBSD - 
if there is an inherent 128 MB limitation in linux kernels?


> 
> Doug White                              | University of Oregon  
> Internet:  dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu    | Residence Networking Assistant
> http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite    | Computer Science Major
> 
> 

--
Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 08:37:27 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>,
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From: Tony Overfield <tony@dell.com>
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Somebody said:
>> > While we're talking about Intel, they claim that they're focusing more on
>> > memory bandwidth these days and the Pentium II has some kind of dual bus
>> > architecture that makes a significant performance difference.
>> 
>> 	my instructor claims they separated the cache into instruction
>> cache and data-cache.....a previously 'discredited' architecture known to
>> the ancients as 'harvard architecture ( howard aiken )' as opposed to the
>> traditional 'von neumann' or 'princeton' architecture.... is cache space
>> relatively cheap these days?

The "dual bus architecture" is not related to the split I&D cache.

Michael Smith said:
>Split I&D cache is nothing 'discredited' (cf. Sparc, Mips, Motorola),
>and full-Havard CPUs have been around all along too (all of the m68k
>family, for example).
>
>Cache space has nothing to do with it; the basic idea is that code and
>data are not normally tightly mixed (instruction operands count as
>'code') and thus having seperate caches for them can be a Good Thing.
>
>It Intel are hailing this as some sort of 'breakthrough', then that's
>just one more reason to laugh loudly at them.

Every Pentium CPU that Intel has ever made, starting four or five years 
ago with the very first P5, has had split I&D caches, so you shouldn't 
laugh at Intel in this case.

Of course, the win from a split I&D cache is not really related to 
a low ratio of instruction and data mixing.  The win comes from the 
concurrency that it makes possible.  The CPU can fetch instructions 
and data from the I and D caches at the *same time* with obvious 
performance benefits.  If I recall correctly, the data cache supports 
two simultaneous data references, so there can be up to three cache 
data references in progress at any given instant.

On the other hand, Intel's "dual independent bus architecture" was first 
put into the Pentium Pro and it refers to the separate L2 cache bus, made 
practical (due to the large number of signals involved) because the L2 
caches were integrated.  The Pentium II also has this feature, again made 
practical because the L2 caches are built into the processor module.  
This feature allows the CPU to access the L1 and L2 caches while the CPU 
bus is busy.

Stephen Roome said:
] This is interesting, CTCM (motherboard benchmarker program) seems to tell 
] me that I can get almost 56MB/s memory bandwidth. With a 66MHz bus clock 
] I can't see how that this figure can improve much.

56MB/s is about half of the "correct" number.  Are you sure you're 
interpreting the results correctly?  For example, if the benchmark is 
measuring MOVSD performance, perhaps you're forgetting to double the 
numbers, since the operation is a memory copy.  If your memory bandwidth
really is only 56MB/s, then that's slow, not fast.

] Seeing as Intel seem 
] unlikely to support a 75MHz or 83MHz bus speed then I'd love to know how 
] they intend on doing this.

I can't speak for Intel, but Intel says this on its www site:
"In addition, the Dual Independent Bus architecture supports the evolution 
 of today’s 66 MHz system memory bus to a 100 MHz system memory bus within 
 the next year."

David Langford said:
) What I really dont understand is why HP and ALR(?) seem to be the only
) folks doing memory busses larger than 64 bits wide. 

Since the CPU only has a 64 bit data bus, the extra bits are harder
to take advantage of.

) One would think that a 128bit 4-way interleaved motherboard 
) would really help 
) the crappy memory performance of Intel CPU based systems.

Today's typical system has at least 100 MB/s memory bandwidth and many 
systems have over 200 MB/s memory bandwidth.  Since when did that 
become crappy?

) (That and why mohterboard makers dont put caches on Pentium Pro motherboards
) to interface the slow main memory and the faster on chip cache.)

It's because of the relatively large size of the integrated L2 cache.  The 
best way to make the system faster is to provide faster memory.  An L3 cache 
will have very low hit rates unless it is huge (many MB).  Even so, the high 
hit rate of the integrated L1 and L2 caches means you'll be spending lots of 
money optimizing the rare cases, which has an obviously poor cost/benefit 
ratio for most applications.

-
Tony - Speaking only for myself.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 08:37:32 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:45:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jamie Bowden <jamie@inna.net>
To: proff@suburbia.net
cc: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Virutal Interfaces how ??
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On Sat, 12 Apr 1997 proff@suburbia.net wrote:

> > Christiaan Keet stands accused of saying:
> > > > 
> > > > If alias is on different IP network:
> > > > # ifconfig ed0 inet 194.9.12.99 netmask 255.255.255.0 alias
> > > 
> > > We use this quite extensively, but is there any way of de-configuring
> > > one of these aliases without rebooting the machine?   With Linux you
> > > can just do an 'ifconfig ed0 down' I believe. 
> > 
> > ifconfig ed0 delete
> > 
> > will remove one alias at a time.  Not perhaps as nice as being able to
> > delete a nominated alias, but it can be adequate.
> > 
> > > Christiaan
> 
> Or you can use this undocumented option:
> 
> 	ifconfig ed0 -alias ipaddr
> 

Or even use the documented:

ifconfig de0 666.666.666.666 alias delete

And all will work well.  

Jamie Bowden

Network Administrator, TBI Ltd.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 08:46:18 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:44:12 -0400
To: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
Cc: Pedro Giffuni <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>, hackers@freebsd.org
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At 11:17 AM 4/12/97 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, dennis wrote:
>
>> Then perhaps there is a different reason that commercial vendors stay away
>> from
>> FreeBSD?
>
>	Because its a free, non-commercially supported product with nobody
>to rant and rave at if there is a problem?

Nice excuse, but I doubt it. You get a lot more response ranting at the
hackers
than you do ranting at microsoft or SCO, unless you're a REALLY BIG
vendor.

I think it has more to do with:

1) Its a tiny market due to no promotional effort  (ala LINUX)
2) Lack of commitment to stability of key components, particularly networking
3) Most of the key people are running/using/developing under -current rather
than the releases. How can there be a perceived commitment to the releases
when so much development time is already focused on 3.x?
4) Lack of focus as to what FreeBSD is (jack of all trades, master of none)

no doubt a flame-bait opinion, but i can take it :-)


db



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 09:13:49 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 09:13:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Utz <spaz@u.washington.edu>
To: "Kevin P. Neal" <kpneal@pobox.com>
cc: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: harvard architectures are not discredited! sorry!Re: 430TX ?
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970412071347.006fd5ac@mindspring.com>
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Oh god....

i cant believe i started this, now it looks like people think my professor
is stupid, else i would have just let this drop....

*i* said that! i am sorry! it is my opinion, evidently not shared by most
knowledgable people!

On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Kevin P. Neal wrote:

> At 01:13 PM 4/11/97 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote:
> >On Apr 04, 1997 at 09:46:26AM -0700, John Utz wrote:
> >>
> >> 	my instructor claims they separated the cache into instruction
> >> cache and data-cache.....a previously 'discredited' architecture known to
> >
> >Discredited?  Since when?  All other things being equal, separate I+D caches
> >almost always outperform merged caches.  
> 
> Don't you just love university profs who teach their opinion, and they
> call it "fact".
> 
> Then they don't teach how they came up with their opinion, so the student
> graduates with a bunch of stuff in his/her head and doesn't really "get it".
> 
> CC line trimmed.
> --
> XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci.     -   House of Retrocomputing
> XCOMM  mailto:kpneal@pobox.com              -   http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/
> XCOMM  kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu              Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates:
> XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!"
> 
> 

*******************************************************************************
 John Utz	spaz@u.washington.edu
	idiocy is the impulse function in the convolution of life


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 09:36:58 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:54:12 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-Id: <199704121654.SAA19568@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: mitsumi FX120 problem
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Either my drive is bad or something else is wrong:

I tried to install from 2.2.1-RELEASE/floppies/newer/boot.flp
and have Mitsumi FX-120 as slave drive attached to a 
VLB Eide controller where the Master drive is a 3.2 GB Quantum eIde.

wd0: 3067MB (3281856 secs)
wdc0: unit 1 (atapi): FX524T$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $/f07 $ $>,
removable,intr,dma,iordis

is roughly the output I'm getting from the probe. So far so good though
I believe the probe should look a bit friendlier - all the $s look a
bit like nonsense) but after the probing phase the clean clears
and a block cursor sits in the bottom left of the blanked screen
and everything is frozen.

When I remove the drive from the IDE bus the installation doesn't
freeze and continues with the installation menu.


--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 09:43:09 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:18:51 +0300
From: Ruslan Shevchenko <rssh@cki.ipri.kiev.ua>
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CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
References: <199704120736.AAA11209@dog.farm.org>
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Dmitry Kohmanyuk wrote:
> 
> In article <334E1FEE.1BC7@cki.ipri.kiev.ua> you wrote:
> > Warner Losh wrote:
> > >
> > > In message <1652.860709359@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:
> > > : > how about making these "well known" files such as /etc/resolv.conf,
> > > : > /etc/host.conf and other stuff symlinks into /var/etc ? This is
> > > :
> > > : I'm starting to get a headache. :-)
> > >
> > > I hate to say this, but I kinda like this idea.
> > >
> > > Does somebody have a cononical list of these files so that some brave
> > > soles can begin to experiment?
> 
> > I think, exists some standarts.
> >  SIUC, POSIX
> 
> s/SIUC/SVID/ ? That's System V Interface Definition...  I don't
> think it defines and names within file system...
> 

 NO, I mean Single Unix Specification (from X/open)

 http://www.xopen.org

> > I don't know, are they defined canonical filenames,
> > but I think, that yes. (Sorry, but i have
> > no time for web-surfing now)

May be in future, now they have
   1. --- commands and utilities
   2. --- headers and C API.

but, for example exists DCE standarts, which determinate, for
example,
  /etc/krb5/
  /etc/soneinfo/

(It's intereesting, are anybody have Posix 1003.2  1003.7 1003.13,
1003.18 ?

> 
> I don't know about POSIX much, but judging from my experience,
> I can tell you:
> 
> There _cannot_ be a standard under which Solaris, SunOS, AIX, HP-UX,
> SCO, Digital Unix, FreeBSD and Linux all comply.   The set intersection
> is _empty_.
>

  /etc/termcap, 
  /etc/passwd particulary, 
  
 
> It looks to me that those standards do not exist.
> 

 Yes, but in fuzzy sence, why I can have in office Unix ZOO
  (Ultrix, OSF, SCO, FreeBSD, now ) and after intersection of files,
 I receive:

liases
exports
fstab
ftpusers
group
hosts
hosts.equiv
hosts.lpd
inetd
inetd.conf
magic
motd
namedb
networks
passwd
printcap
profile
protocols
resolv.conf
rmt
rpc
sendmail.cf
services
shells
termcap
ttys
uucp
   

> resolv.conf, for example, is pure BIND-isms.  (host.conf can be even FreeBSDism with its format -
> compare that on Linux.  service.switch (sendmail).  nsswitch.conf (Solaris).  svc.conf(?)(OSF).)
> etc.

Fuzzy logic, or what is Unix in historical sence ?

 It's API + commands for programmers, but:

 *number of most common use software* for sysadmins.

it is: BIND, sendmail, inetd, uucp .... 

and set of well-known files, IMHO, *must be constant*

for example, if I have admintool, which work with this files,
in WindowsNT-style ? (I mean mouse-moving).

> 
> The idea of having read-only root filesystem and separate configuration information
> has its merit, but some files have to be there or you loose look-and-feel compatibility
> with whatever Unices we still have it.
> 
> Union or overlap mount idea with symlinks can be neat, though.
> 

Hm. first day I install system, next two week I try understand why
nothing work and manually do symlinks ? 

Are you relly think in such style ?

> How about absolutely basic /etc which re-mounts /etc partion on top of itself
> and re-executes boot scripts?   I don't think its a good thing for a standard configuration, though.
> 

  It's terribly.

> --
> "Standards don't make things work. Work makes things work.
>  Good standards document working things."  -- Mike O'Dell

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 10:12:35 1997
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Message-ID: <334FC0F5.3E47@geocities.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:05:58 +0300
From: Yoav Shadmi <yshadmi@geocities.com>
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Hey,

I'd like to help ya add FreeBSD the DOS feature.

If it's still open, contact me through yshadmi@geocities.com

Bye

Yoav Shadmi

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 11:18:53 1997
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Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections
In-Reply-To: <199704120228.CAA14395@veda.is> from Darren Reed at "Apr 12, 97 12:20:05 pm"
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:18:28 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: danny@panda.hilink.com.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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> > Have you read my earlier e-mail?  This occurs because if you leave out 
> > the '-q' option 'flush' says "Flushed all rules".  But when the tcp 
> > packets come to be sent, and error "Permission denied" is return, so 
> > telnetd/rlogind quite, kernel resets connection and the rest of 
> > rc.firewall is probably not executed.
> 
> Hmmm, if it returned EHOSTUNREACH, would that be as bad as EPERM ?
> 
> Darren
> 

Would seem closer to the truth. What other implications?

Adam

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 11:56:13 1997
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Date: 	Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:03:07 -0300
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From: Solar Designer <solar@SUN1.IDEAL.RU>
Subject:      Linux kernel patch to remove stack exec permission
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Hello!

There seemed to be no patch for Linux kernel to remove execute permission
from the stack (to prevent most buffer overflow exploits), so I decided to
make one, I include it at the end of this message. I heard some rumours that
GCC assumes stack frame to be executable when dealing with nested functions,
but I couldn't reproduce that. I'm running this patched kernel for a day now,
and everything (well, except for the exploits) seems to work fine. However,
some programs may depend on the stack being executable... I'd like to hear
any reports of this.

The patch is for Linux 2.0.30 (should work on others also), x86 only.
Originally user code, data and stack segments were mapped to the same memory,
and had the same limit. I decreased the code segment's limit, so it doesn't
cover the actual stack space (since the stack grows down). Actually, I
created a new descriptor instead, leaving the old one with its original
limit, since that still allows to execute some code on the stack when needed,
by using old code segment selector. For example, the kernel itself needs that
ability to return from signal handlers.

Note that the BSS and malloc()ed areas are still executable. Some buffer
overflows are still exploitable, by making the program put the shellcode
somewhere else in its memory space, not on the stack, and overwriting the
return address to point to that area. Also, some programs may already have
a suitable code in them, and not require an external shellcode at all. So
this patch only prevents most overflows from being exploitable, not all of
them.

diff -u --recursive /extra/linux-2.0.30/arch/i386/kernel/head.S linux/arch/i386/kernel/head.S
--- /extra/linux-2.0.30/arch/i386/kernel/head.S Sat Apr 12 10:41:59 1997
+++ linux/arch/i386/kernel/head.S       Sat Apr 12 10:44:58 1997
@@ -402,7 +402,7 @@
        .quad 0xc0c392000000ffff        /* 0x18 kernel 1GB data at 0xC0000000 */
        .quad 0x00cbfa000000ffff        /* 0x23 user   3GB code at 0x00000000 */
        .quad 0x00cbf2000000ffff        /* 0x2b user   3GB data at 0x00000000 */
-       .quad 0x0000000000000000        /* not used */
+       .quad 0x00cafa000000ffff        /* 0x33 user   2.75GB code */
        .quad 0x0000000000000000        /* not used */
        .fill 2*NR_TASKS,8,0            /* space for LDT's and TSS's etc */
 #ifdef CONFIG_APM
diff -u --recursive /extra/linux-2.0.30/arch/i386/kernel/signal.c linux/arch/i386/kernel/signal.c
--- /extra/linux-2.0.30/arch/i386/kernel/signal.c       Sat Apr 12 10:41:59 1997
+++ linux/arch/i386/kernel/signal.c     Sat Apr 12 10:44:58 1997
@@ -214,7 +214,7 @@
        /* Set up registers for signal handler */
        regs->esp = (unsigned long) frame;
        regs->eip = (unsigned long) sa->sa_handler;
-       regs->cs = USER_CS; regs->ss = USER_DS;
+       regs->cs = USER_HUGE_CS; regs->ss = USER_DS;
        regs->ds = USER_DS; regs->es = USER_DS;
        regs->gs = USER_DS; regs->fs = USER_DS;
        regs->eflags &= ~TF_MASK;
diff -u --recursive /extra/linux-2.0.30/include/asm-i386/segment.h linux/include/asm-i386/segment.h
--- /extra/linux-2.0.30/include/asm-i386/segment.h      Sat Apr 12 10:41:37 1997
+++ linux/include/asm-i386/segment.h    Sat Apr 12 10:44:58 1997
@@ -4,7 +4,8 @@
 #define KERNEL_CS      0x10
 #define KERNEL_DS      0x18

-#define USER_CS                0x23
+#define USER_HUGE_CS   0x23
+#define USER_CS                0x33
 #define USER_DS                0x2B

 #ifndef __ASSEMBLY__

Signed,
Solar Designer


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 11:57:40 1997
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Subject: Bogus bpf af from tun driver?
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:13:21 -0400
From: Robert Withrow <witr@rwwa.com>
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The tun driver prepends what it calls the address family to the packet it 
passes to bpf.  I get it as 0x02.00.00.00 which looks like AF_INET in some 
weird byte-swapped state...

This is wrong, right?

Should it HTONL or something?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 592 8935, Net: witr@rwwa.COM



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:02:40 1997
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Message-Id: <199704121902.PAA17558@spooky.rwwa.com>
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: PPP fails to install a direct route for interface
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:02:33 -0400
From: Robert Withrow <witr@rwwa.com>
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In 2.1.7, Ijppp, or the tunnel, or someone fails to install a direct
route for the interface (that gates to lo0).  This means traffic directed
to the local end of a ppp link doesn't get routed.

I think that this should be treated just like other interfaces in
the system, like ethernet interfaces, where just such a direct route
gets added when the interface is brought up.

The following route command works, but it doesn't get me exactly the
same kind of route that the ethernet interfaces get.  Should I do this
differently?

route -n add -host -interface localsideaddress 127.0.0.1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 592 8935, Net: witr@rwwa.COM



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:07:22 1997
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To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time 
Cc: proff@suburbia.net, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:44:19 +1000."
		<199704120250.TAA09903@freefall.freebsd.org> 
References: <199704120250.TAA09903@freefall.freebsd.org>  
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:05:06 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199704120250.TAA09903@freefall.freebsd.org> Darren Reed writes:
: > #include <sys/param.h>
: [...]
: 
: Here here.

I have to agree.

Of course, you know that I like

#if (defined(unix) || defined(__unix)) && !defined(USG)
#include <sys/param.h>
#endif

better, but that's a minor quibble :-)

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:08:42 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704121847.LAA15473@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: giles@nemeton.com.au (Giles Lean)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:47:10 -0700 (MST)
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704120139.LAA10681@topaz.nemeton.com.au> from "Giles Lean" at Apr 12, 97 11:39:55 am
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> Some configuration files just have to be grandfathered, most
> especially those that are often controlled or supplied by a network
> administrator.

That would be those BSD network administrators, considering that
BSD has a number of differences from all other systems in that area
anyway?

I really don't see any major BSD vendors dictating policy in this
are, now that Sun is an SVR4 shop...


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:08:43 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704121845.LAA15464@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:45:20 -0700 (MST)
Cc: langfod@dihelix.com, ejs@bfd.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
        steve@visint.co.uk, louie@transsys.com, michaelh@cet.co.jp,
        avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704120130.SAA21709@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Apr 11, 97 06:29:56 pm
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>  > Right. If you look at the Mips, Alpha, PowerPC, Sparc, etc.. They all
>  > have 1-2Meg caches on the higher end systems.
> 
> ...1-2M is a small cache, IMO.  We have an Alpha with a 4M cache, and are
> getting some with 16M cache..

The real pain is that no one seems to be doing anything about getting
SRAM density up... the only benefit DRAM has over SRAM is its density...
everything else favors SRAM.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:10:35 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704121850.LAA15492@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:50:18 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704120302.UAA28710@coyote.Artisoft.COM> from "Darren Reed" at Apr 12, 97 12:37:31 pm
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> Hmmm, can __FreeBSD_sysversion be made the same value as __FreeBSD_version ?
> (or vice versa)


The easiest way is to install only RELEASE version of the OS, and don't
update your kernel or user space sources until the next RELEASE.

It turns out that that also happens to be the easiest situation for
a commercial vendor to support, so everyone gets to be happy.  8-).


> The problem with __FreeBSD__ is that it is defined by cc - or gcc/pgcc.
> 
> That is, it depends on what system the compiler is built, not what OS
> it is running on.
> 
> Problem being, it impacts every compilation thereafter.

I do not use the __FreeBSD__ tag, personally.

There is *some* use of the tag in the NFS cokkie code, since there
is an inversion of operation order between FreeBSD and Net/OpenBSD.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:10:51 1997
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To: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
Cc: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
        hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:13:26 +1000."
		<199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> 
References: <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au>  
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:08:52 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> Giles Lean writes:
[ use smrsh ]
: I recommend that we make this change for the 3.0 release.

Me too.  Any objection to just doing it?

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:29:22 1997
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From: spork <spork@super-g.com>
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Subject: BIG /usr, part II
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Hi all,

If this is inappropriate for hackers, I apologize...

I now have a /usr partition that is about 450M...  The ports/distfiles is
about 70M of that, but the rest is all stuff that's inclusive with the OS.
I sent mail about this a while back, and no one knew what the problem was,
but now I have yet another clue to share.  

In /usr/obj, the entire source tree was replicated like so:

/usr/obj/usr/src...etc..

So after not knowing how it got there, I blew it out with no ill effects.
Yesterday I cvsup-ed to 2.2.1 (Mr. Polstra, cvsup rocks!) and decided to
bring myself up to date.  Made a new kernel, then started a "make world"
last night.  Everything went perfectly, except for the mystery directory.
It's back again.

So am I missing something here?  Is that how it's supposed to be?  It
seems a bit large to me, and it *looks* like a redundant hierarchy...

Thanks,

Charles
 
spork@super-g.com
spork@inch.com


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:29:26 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704121905.MAA15540@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs...
To: dk+@ua.net
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:05:56 -0700 (MST)
Cc: rssh@cki.ipri.kiev.ua, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704120736.AAA11209@dog.farm.org> from "Dmitry Kohmanyuk" at Apr 12, 97 00:36:13 am
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> > I think, exists some standarts.
> >  SIUC, POSIX
> 
> s/SIUC/SVID/ ? That's System V Interface Definition...  I don't 
> think it defines and names within file system...

SIUC is the X/Open single UNIX standard...


> I don't know about POSIX much, but judging from my experience,
> I can tell you:
> 
> There _cannot_ be a standard under which Solaris, SunOS, AIX, HP-UX, 
> SCO, Digital Unix, FreeBSD and Linux all comply.   The set intersection
> is _empty_.

There is POSIX, and the only uncertified member of that set is currently
FreeBSD.

Now as to whether POSIX is a useful standard, that's another argument;
I'd say that as long as you can't turn off non-POSIX features in the
OS build environment to make sure the software doesn't depend on some
non-standardized extension, it's pretty damn useless.



> The idea of having read-only root filesystem and separate
> configuration information has its merit, but some files have to
> be there or you loose look-and-feel compatibility with whatever
> Unices we still have it.

Actually, we don't call that "look-and-feel" anymore; we now call
it "learning curve".


> How about absolutely basic /etc which re-mounts /etc partion on top
> of itself and re-executes boot scripts?   I don't think its a good
> thing for a standard configuration, though.

The most useful overlay mount has an fs with the following structure:

	/
	|
	`--- /dev

Getting it's '/' part overlay mounted, leaving it's '/dev' part exposed
by the lack of a 'dev' in the root of the overlay.


This gets us all the way to a single user shell during an OS port
without implementing any machine dependent device code other than
the bottom end (if it's abstracted right) of the console driver.

Whee!


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:40:13 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704121917.MAA15567@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 12:17:22 -0700 (MST)
Cc: scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970412114405.00a714d0@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 12, 97 11:44:12 am
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> >> Then perhaps there is a different reason that commercial vendors
> >> stay away from FreeBSD?
> >
> >	Because its a free, non-commercially supported product with nobody
> >to rant and rave at if there is a problem?
> 
> Nice excuse, but I doubt it. You get a lot more response ranting at
> the hackers than you do ranting at microsoft or SCO, unless you're
> a REALLY BIG vendor.

Yeah, if you're *really* big, then they will politely blow you off
instead of impolitely ignoring you.  8-) 8-).


> I think it has more to do with:
> 
> 1) Its a tiny market due to no promotional effort  (ala LINUX)

#1 on my list of reasons, too.

> 2) Lack of commitment to stability of key components, particularly networking


#2 lack of commitment to an open architecture (modular components
so that dicking with one module won't often damage another -- this
also makes it robust in the the areas your #2 refers to; I think
your #2 is an effect, not a cause...).

> 3) Most of the key people are running/using/developing under
> -current rather than the releases. How can there be a perceived
> commitment to the releases when so much development time is
> already focused on 3.x?

OK, you lost me here.

If I hack on a release, it's no longer a release, it's a -current.
All new work following a release must be, by definition, done against
a -current, not against the release.


> 4) Lack of focus as to what FreeBSD is (jack of all trades, master
> of none)

What is the focus for Windows 95?  NT Workstation?  NT Server?

What is the Focus for Linux?

What is the Focus for SCO?

BSDI... OK, they have focus, but they don't seem to be winning because
of it.

How about Sun?  Is JAVA a focus, or is it a difraction grating?  It's
definitely SOME kind of grating...  8-).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 12:58:53 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:57:04 +0300 (EEST)
From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX ? 
In-Reply-To: <199704120117.SAA07293@rah.star-gate.com>
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Sorry, I snipped the CC: list quite a bit... - hope no one get offended

On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> >From The Desk Of "David Langford" :
> > Main point is that I think even motherboard makers could be more helpful
> > in improving memory usage. I would pay a premium for a high bandwidth 
> > motherboard, but I dont see a point in spending $750 for motherboards that
> > perform just like the $200 boards...
> 
> 
> It is call lets charge to the hilt for our hardware mistakes .
> 
> Oh, Don't forget that 64bit PCI based motherboards have not come out yet
> so guess what? 8)

Well, there are at least for PowerPC - the Motorola Atlas(?)/ MTX
motherboard has one 64bit slot and 2 32-bit slots. I guess all that is
needed for a PC chipset having 64 bit PCI is a CPU-host controller,
interfacing anything else (including ISA?) to it using Digitals 64/64 and
64/32 PCI bridges.

	Sander

> 
> 	Cheers,
> 	Amancio
> 
> 
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 13:02:49 1997
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To: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 430TX ? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:57:04 +0300."
             <Pine.BSF.3.95.970412224903.9830A-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> 
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Hmmm...

Does DEC have a motherboard for PC with 64bit slots?

	Cheers,
	Amancio

>From The Desk Of Narvi :
> 
> 
> Sorry, I snipped the CC: list quite a bit... - hope no one get offended
> 
> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> > >From The Desk Of "David Langford" :
> > > Main point is that I think even motherboard makers could be more helpful
> > > in improving memory usage. I would pay a premium for a high bandwidth 
> > > motherboard, but I dont see a point in spending $750 for motherboards tha
t
> > > perform just like the $200 boards...
> > 
> > 
> > It is call lets charge to the hilt for our hardware mistakes .
> > 
> > Oh, Don't forget that 64bit PCI based motherboards have not come out yet
> > so guess what? 8)
> 
> Well, there are at least for PowerPC - the Motorola Atlas(?)/ MTX
> motherboard has one 64bit slot and 2 32-bit slots. I guess all that is
> needed for a PC chipset having 64 bit PCI is a CPU-host controller,
> interfacing anything else (including ISA?) to it using Digitals 64/64 and
> 64/32 PCI bridges.
> 
> 	Sander
> 
> > 
> > 	Cheers,
> > 	Amancio
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 13:06:09 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:03:00 -0400
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
Cc: scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org
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At 12:17 PM 4/12/97 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
>> >> Then perhaps there is a different reason that commercial vendors
>> >> stay away from FreeBSD?
>> >
>> >	Because its a free, non-commercially supported product with nobody
>> >to rant and rave at if there is a problem?
>> 
>> Nice excuse, but I doubt it. You get a lot more response ranting at
>> the hackers than you do ranting at microsoft or SCO, unless you're
>> a REALLY BIG vendor.
>
>Yeah, if you're *really* big, then they will politely blow you off
>instead of impolitely ignoring you.  8-) 8-).
>
>
>> I think it has more to do with:
>> 
>> 1) Its a tiny market due to no promotional effort  (ala LINUX)
>
>#1 on my list of reasons, too.
>
>> 2) Lack of commitment to stability of key components, particularly
networking
>
>
>#2 lack of commitment to an open architecture (modular components
>so that dicking with one module won't often damage another -- this
>also makes it robust in the the areas your #2 refers to; I think
>your #2 is an effect, not a cause...).
>
>> 3) Most of the key people are running/using/developing under
>> -current rather than the releases. How can there be a perceived
>> commitment to the releases when so much development time is
>> already focused on 3.x?
>
>OK, you lost me here.
>
>If I hack on a release, it's no longer a release, it's a -current.
>All new work following a release must be, by definition, done against
>a -current, not against the release.

There's too much "its fixed in -current" or "it'll be in the next release" 
and not enough commitment to getting fixes and important new feature
into the short-term.

For example, right now, most of the effort should be in making 2.3
near-perfect (given the imperfections in 2.2.x), not "dicking around"
with 3.0 or some future, bug-filled release.

>
>
>> 4) Lack of focus as to what FreeBSD is (jack of all trades, master
>> of none)
>
>What is the Focus for Linux?

Linux has the same problem.

>
>BSDI... OK, they have focus, but they don't seem to be winning because
>of it.

BSDIs focus is, unfortunately, misguided because they have a 
caste of clowns marketing it.  their latest ads are hurting them...
if they think that they're going to break away with IPX gateway
technology....an intermediate solution that has big problems.

>What is the Focus for SCO?
>What is the focus for Windows 95?  NT Workstation?  NT Server?

Something to consider is that if your big enough, you dont have to
have a focus because you have enough resources to do everything.
People ask why we dont have NT drivers (as I could probably write it
it in a week or 2), but we cant focus on unix if we dilute ourselves
with dealing with and supporting NT. You end up with a bunch
of mediocre products instead on 1 or 2 really good ones. SCO and
microsoft are big enough to be general purpose OSs.....

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 13:14:53 1997
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From: Jim Bryant <jbryant@tfs.net>
To: <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: question about X.25 drivers
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Can anyone tell me anything about the BSD X.25 drivers, and whether or not
they are usable?

I am interested in possibly adding a AX.25 kernel-level driver...

This is the second time I have posted a message on this topic, and am
wondering if the first one was read?

jim
--
All opinions expressed are mine, if you   | "I will not be pushed, stamped,
think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or
radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!!     | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner"
  jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 13:44:08 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704122023.NAA15739@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers
To: jbryant@tfs.net
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:23:48 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.970412151433.jbryant@tfs.net> from "Jim Bryant" at Apr 12, 97 03:14:34 pm
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> Can anyone tell me anything about the BSD X.25 drivers, and whether or not
> they are usable?
> 
> I am interested in possibly adding a AX.25 kernel-level driver...
> 
> This is the second time I have posted a message on this topic, and am
> wondering if the first one was read?

You should probably contact Garrett Wollman (wollman@freebsd.org),
since he does not always read all the lists... at the very least, he
should be able to tell you at what revision the drivers he removed
were still functional.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 13:44:09 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199704122021.NAA15723@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:21:45 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970412160250.00b1f100@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 12, 97 04:03:00 pm
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> >OK, you lost me here.
> >
> >If I hack on a release, it's no longer a release, it's a -current.
> >All new work following a release must be, by definition, done against
> >a -current, not against the release.
> 
> There's too much "its fixed in -current" or "it'll be in the next release" 
> and not enough commitment to getting fixes and important new feature
> into the short-term.

Fixes, maybe, if they were treated as releases themselves, and could
be applied to non-stock systems.

But "important new features"?  No way... a new feature waits for
a release.  Releases are *defined* by a feature freeze.  Add a
new feature, and once again, you have a -current.


> For example, right now, most of the effort should be in making 2.3
> near-perfect (given the imperfections in 2.2.x), not "dicking around"
> with 3.0 or some future, bug-filled release.

Well, you'd have to list explicit bugs in 2.2.x, and get them to
agree to a 2.3 (for what it's worth, 2.3's have been historically
ill-fated for UNIX a-clone OS's...).

In general, there's problems with attempting to forward fixes through
subsequent releases -- I'd have to say that any fix taking a 2.2.x
to a "fixed" 2.2.x (is 2.3 really the right place to put the tag?)
would probably be expedient in the extreme, and probably not something
you would want following you into the next release.

It's not like maintenance efforts get "budgeted"...


> >What is the Focus for SCO?
> >What is the focus for Windows 95?  NT Workstation?  NT Server?
> 
> Something to consider is that if your big enough, you dont have to
> have a focus because you have enough resources to do everything.
> People ask why we dont have NT drivers (as I could probably write it
> it in a week or 2), but we cant focus on unix if we dilute ourselves
> with dealing with and supporting NT. You end up with a bunch
> of mediocre products instead on 1 or 2 really good ones. SCO and
> microsoft are big enough to be general purpose OSs.....

Well, that's something for me to ruminate on... I don't necessarily
agree that "if you're big, you don't need focus" somehow implies
"if you're not big, you do need focus".

Focus is no substitute for vision.  The Suns and Novell's of this
world have taught us nothing if they have not taught us that.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 13:46:19 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:15:44 +0200
From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: DES Challenge
References: <14845.860790203@time.cdrom.com> <Pine.NEB.3.96.970411182310.235h-100000@thelab.hub.org>
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According to The Hermit Hacker:
> 	Have you tried the bovine proxy stuff?  My machine hasn't had
> to sit idle waiting for anything since I switched...we're currently
> ranked 2nd on the bovine stats, just behind best.net, with 3rd not even
> coming *close* to competing...and there are approx 6 proxy servers 
> currently running...

I'm using the Bovine proxy stuff too and it is working perfectly. Haven't
missed a key block for days now.
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #41: Sun Mar 23 23:01:22 CET 1997

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 13:57:57 1997
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199704122053.PAA00197@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970412160250.00b1f100@etinc.com> from dennis at "Apr 12, 97 04:03:00 pm"
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:53:16 -0500 (EST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        hackers@freebsd.org
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> 
> There's too much "its fixed in -current" or "it'll be in the next release" 
> and not enough commitment to getting fixes and important new feature
> into the short-term.
> 
> For example, right now, most of the effort should be in making 2.3
> near-perfect (given the imperfections in 2.2.x), not "dicking around"
> with 3.0 or some future, bug-filled release.
> 
Those who are making money with FreeBSD/Linux/whatever at least have the
power to get those things done.  The developers of FreeBSD donate their
time, others who make use of it are welcome to improve FreeBSD by donating
other things :-).

John

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 15:02:10 1997
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To: spork <spork@super-g.com>
cc: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: BIG /usr, part II 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:38:24 EDT."
             <Pine.BSF.3.95.970412153209.2125C-100000@super-g.inch.com> 
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:02:02 -0700
Message-ID: <15826.860882522@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> In /usr/obj, the entire source tree was replicated like so:

"man make"

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 15:16:34 1997
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To: jbryant@tfs.net
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:14:34 CDT."
             <XFMail.970412151433.jbryant@tfs.net> 
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:16:28 -0700
Message-ID: <7100.860883388@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Can anyone tell me anything about the BSD X.25 drivers, and whether or not
> they are usable?

They are not usable.  They may have been at one time, but they have
rotted through disuse.

> I am interested in possibly adding a AX.25 kernel-level driver...

By all means!

> This is the second time I have posted a message on this topic, and am
> wondering if the first one was read?

Probably, it's just that X.25 is about as popular and interesting a
topic for most folks as a paper tape driver, hence the lack of
response. :-)

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 15:35:22 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... 
In-reply-to: <199704121847.LAA15473@phaeton.artisoft.com> 
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:30:58 +1000
From: Giles Lean <giles@nemeton.com.au>
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On Sat, 12 Apr 1997 11:47:10 -0700 (MST)  Terry Lambert wrote:

> > Some configuration files just have to be grandfathered, most
> > especially those that are often controlled or supplied by a network
> > administrator.

> That would be those BSD network administrators, considering that
> BSD has a number of differences from all other systems in that area
> anyway?

As a minor clarification, I'm more concerned about formats than
file locations.  Some of these files have already moved on non-BSD
systems.  Neither am I arguing that file formats should never
change.

A quick scan suggests that "Unix" (and not just BSD) administrators
will be familiar with some/most/all of the following, and that
therefore we should be cautious making changes that effect these:

        aliases         sendmail; 3rd party
        fstab           Solaris changed this one already :-(
        ftpusers
        group
        hosts
        hosts.equiv
        hosts.lpd
        inetd.conf
        namedb          bind; 3rd party
        networks        (not supported correctly on Solaris)
        passwd          broken on 4.4BSD :-(
        protocols
        resolv.conf     bind; 3rd party
        rpc
        sendmail.cf     sendmail; 3rd party
        services
        shells
        syslog.conf

These ones are probably BSD specific.  Certainly I don't care if they
change. :-)

        printcap        
        termcap
        ttys

Regards,

Giles

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 15:45:05 1997
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From: Jim Bryant <jbryant@argus>
Message-Id: <199704122243.RAA05171@argus>
Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:43:50 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net
In-Reply-To: <7100.860883388@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 12, 97 03:16:28 pm
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In reply:
> > Can anyone tell me anything about the BSD X.25 drivers, and whether or not
> > they are usable?
> 
> They are not usable.  They may have been at one time, but they have
> rotted through disuse.

I kinda thought so..

> > I am interested in possibly adding a AX.25 kernel-level driver...
> 
> By all means!
> 
> > This is the second time I have posted a message on this topic, and am
> > wondering if the first one was read?
> 
> Probably, it's just that X.25 is about as popular and interesting a
> topic for most folks as a paper tape driver, hence the lack of
> response. :-)

may be..  but there are many many many hams around the world using
AX.25 for packet radio operation...  i see uses for such a driver
under FreeBSD...  The newest Linux kernels have recently realized the
numbers and have done such a driver...

with new spread-spectrum rules, hams in the us will soon be using off
the shelf equipment for up to T1+ speeds...  115.2k/s is now possible
using low-cost commercial equipment in the 33cm (902-928MHz) band...

I believe that 10Mbps is soon to be available in the C-Band
(5.65-5.925GHz); see the FCC ruling for Apple Computers and their Part
15 devices in this band...

Linux sucks, true...  but it is just this kind of thing that is
keeping them ahead of FreeBSD in such things...

as far as popularity of X.25, i agree, but in the mean time, it is the
STANDARD for radio use, a la AX.25...

on this subject, maybe a discussion group could be set up to cover
support for such things...  hmmm...  maybe a freebsd-packet-radio
mailing list?

if you haven't been keeping up with such things, the US military has
recently released RFCs on the subject of packet-radio...  it also has
military uses...

there are almost a million amatuer radio operators in the united
states alone, let's not give up another entire market to the lin[s]ux
crowd!

Jim
-- 
All opinions expressed are mine, if you   | "I will not be pushed, stamped,
think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or
radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!!     | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner"
  jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 15:48:58 1997
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From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
Cc: terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
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At 03:53 PM 4/12/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
>> 
>> There's too much "its fixed in -current" or "it'll be in the next release" 
>> and not enough commitment to getting fixes and important new feature
>> into the short-term.
>> 
>> For example, right now, most of the effort should be in making 2.3
>> near-perfect (given the imperfections in 2.2.x), not "dicking around"
>> with 3.0 or some future, bug-filled release.
>> 
>Those who are making money with FreeBSD/Linux/whatever at least have the
>power to get those things done.  The developers of FreeBSD donate their
>time, others who make use of it are welcome to improve FreeBSD by donating
>other things :-).

Thats fine,  but then you should resign yourselves to having a cult OS and
not whimper 
about "commercial registries", as if thats going to make a difference.

Employees "contribute" to a company and get paid for their time...your
allegation
that you have to give something away for free to make FreeBSD better or more
useful is part of the attitude at the root of the problem.

db

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 15:56:09 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:53:28 -0400
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
Cc: terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
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At 01:21 PM 4/12/97 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
>> >OK, you lost me here.
>> >
>> >If I hack on a release, it's no longer a release, it's a -current.
>> >All new work following a release must be, by definition, done against
>> >a -current, not against the release.
>> 
>> There's too much "its fixed in -current" or "it'll be in the next release" 
>> and not enough commitment to getting fixes and important new feature
>> into the short-term.
>
>Fixes, maybe, if they were treated as releases themselves, and could
>be applied to non-stock systems.
>
>But "important new features"?  No way... a new feature waits for
>a release.  Releases are *defined* by a feature freeze.  Add a
>new feature, and once again, you have a -current.

I said "short-term", which implied 2.3, not 3.0 in 1998. 


db

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 16:36:57 1997
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Message-Id: <199704122335.JAA16806@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
In-Reply-To: <199704121845.LAA15464@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 12, 97 11:45:20 am"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:05:16 +0930 (CST)
Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, langfod@dihelix.com, ejs@bfd.com,
        hasty@rah.star-gate.com, steve@visint.co.uk, louie@transsys.com,
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Terry Lambert stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > ...1-2M is a small cache, IMO.  We have an Alpha with a 4M cache, and are
> > getting some with 16M cache..
> 
> The real pain is that no one seems to be doing anything about getting
> SRAM density up... the only benefit DRAM has over SRAM is its density...
> everything else favors SRAM.

a) bollocks.  SRAM density is moving along quite nicely, and it's becoming
   much more cost-effective.  We're down from $200 for a 512x16 stick to
   about $60 for two 512Kx8 parts, and we expect to be paying under $10
   each for them with the next generation of parts due soon.

b) DRAM has the massive advantage that a DRAM memory cell is _very_ small.
   SRAM does not have this advantage.

> 					Terry Lambert

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 16:48:06 1997
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Message-Id: <199704122347.SAA00725@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970412184754.00b32100@etinc.com> from dennis at "Apr 12, 97 06:47:57 pm"
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:47:36 -0500 (EST)
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        pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org
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>
> >Those who are making money with FreeBSD/Linux/whatever at least have the
> >power to get those things done.  The developers of FreeBSD donate their
> >time, others who make use of it are welcome to improve FreeBSD by donating
> >other things :-).
> 
> Thats fine,  but then you should resign yourselves to having a cult OS and
> not whimper 
> about "commercial registries", as if thats going to make a difference.
> 
The whimpering that has been happening hasn't been from me.  I am saying
that if someone wants something, begging won't fix the problem.  The
tools exist to fix the problem, and all it takes is deciding to do the
things to make things happen.  One can contribute money, one can
contribute time, or maybe even both in order to get the results that
one wants.

Many of the things that I do have been supported by commercial need.  Directly
or indirectly there is often compensation for my time (like there is for
others.)  When I am not doing something for hire, I work on various parts
of the infrastructure that need to be worked on.  Others often do that also.

So, my suggestion is that if a change from the current course is wanted, and
no-one is willing to donate the time for free, those that want the change
can do it, or fund (or otherwise enable) the change.

John


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 17:20:58 1997
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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 01:14:29 +0000 ()
From: Christoph Haas <chris@acme1.ruhr.de>
To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, haas@lion.de
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, dennis wrote:

> I think that any vendor who does not have a developer on the hackers list
> isn't
> committed enough to recognize...... The hackers list is the best registry you
> can have, and although there is a lot of irrelevant banter (as there is on 
> any list), it gives a philosophical understanding of what is going on rather
> that just snippets of effectual data.

Agreed, but I think that a vendor feels much more "at home" if you can 
address him persoanlly. Just a simple mail saying "Hi, we know that you 
rely on part xyz of FreeBSD, and we want to inform you that it is going 
to change in the next RELEASE, You should have a look at CURRENT for 
what's going on. Bye." would be enough.

I really think that our view of FreeBSD is too technical. We should start 
to care about what people are doing with it, not only thinking of what 
features to add next. Remember: FreeBSD rises and falls with the 
applications that are availabel for it. Ever thought about why many 
commercial apps are only available for L* (Star Office, Poet, 
Mathematica, ...) ?!

> I would suggest that you encourage vendors to participate in freebsd's future
> rather than just read about it. 

Hey, that's what it's all about. I want to encourage vendors to develop 
products for FreeBSD by letting them now that there is someone who cares 
about their needs and problems.

	Christoph
-- 
If you put garbage in a computer nothing comes out but garbage.  But
this garbage, having passed through a very expensive machine, is
somehow enobled and none dare criticize it.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 18:26:13 1997
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To: "Benn Horton" <bennh@lineone.net>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp
Subject: Re: Keyboard is disabled sometimes at boot up 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Apr 1997 00:39:39 PDT."
             <MAPI.Id.0016.00656e6e682020203030303530303035@MAPI.to.RFC822> 
References: <MAPI.Id.0016.00656e6e682020203030303530303035@MAPI.to.RFC822> 
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:30:16 +0900
From: Kazutaka YOKOTA <yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp>
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>I am using FreeBSD 2.1.7 Release and I have a problem where my keyboard
>locks up on booting to the console login,
> and I do a reboot to use the keyboard.
>What is causing this?

Do you see any error message during boot? Such as:

scprobe: keyboard reset FAILED (result...)

Or, do you use a PS/2 mouse? Is it recognized correctly?  The keyboard
and the PS/2 mouse are both connected to the same keyboard controller
and sometimes conflict with each other.  Disable the `psm' device and
see if your keyboard works.

Kazu


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 18:29:32 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199704130128.KAA17951@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 430TX ?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970412103112.006b22b4@bugs.us.dell.com> from Tony Overfield at "Apr 12, 97 10:31:12 am"
To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:58:06 +0930 (CST)
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Tony Overfield stands accused of saying:
> 
> The "dual bus architecture" is not related to the split I&D cache.

Thanks for the clarification.

> Michael Smith said:
> >
> >It Intel are hailing this as some sort of 'breakthrough', then that's
> >just one more reason to laugh loudly at them.
> 
> Every Pentium CPU that Intel has ever made, starting four or five years 
> ago with the very first P5, has had split I&D caches, so you shouldn't 
> laugh at Intel in this case.

The "laugh" proposal was a direct follow-on to the proposition that
Intel might be suggesting that split I&D was a 'breakthrough'.

> Of course, the win from a split I&D cache is not really related to 
> a low ratio of instruction and data mixing.  The win comes from the 
> concurrency that it makes possible.  

... only if the CPU can get at both the I&D caches at the same time.
In most modern implementations, this is certainly the case, although
in single-chip micros this usually leads to lots of pins (expensive)
or putting the split cache onboard (size constraints).

> The CPU can fetch instructions 
> and data from the I and D caches at the *same time* with obvious 
> performance benefits.  If I recall correctly, the data cache supports 
> two simultaneous data references, so there can be up to three cache 
> data references in progress at any given instant.

A deeper pipeline can often achieve equivalent results to this,
although you will correctly raise the problems with deep pipelines and
speculative execution/branch prediction, etc. and I will have to
concede that a short pipeline and fast cache access/decoding are
better 8)

> On the other hand, Intel's "dual independent bus architecture" was first 
> put into the Pentium Pro and it refers to the separate L2 cache bus, made 
> practical (due to the large number of signals involved) because the L2 
> caches were integrated.  The Pentium II also has this feature, again made 
> practical because the L2 caches are built into the processor module.  
> This feature allows the CPU to access the L1 and L2 caches while the CPU 
> bus is busy.

Unless I'm missing something here, this basically just means that the L1 cache 
got lots bigger, but now because it's slower, it too is cached.

I sniff a manufacturing compromise here.

> I can't speak for Intel, but Intel says this on its www site: "In
> addition, the Dual Independent Bus architecture supports the
> evolution of today’s 66 MHz system memory bus to a 100 MHz system
> memory bus within the next year."

"we shortened some of the signals".

> David Langford said:
> ) What I really dont understand is why HP and ALR(?) seem to be the only
> ) folks doing memory busses larger than 64 bits wide. 
> 
> Since the CPU only has a 64 bit data bus, the extra bits are harder
> to take advantage of.

You would have to brew your own memory controller (and possibly fiddle the
behaviour of the cache controller) to take advantage of a wider memory bus,
and it wouldn't buy you much. 

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 19:04:25 1997
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:58:00 +1000 (EST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199704121850.LAA15492@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 12, 97 11:50:18 am
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In some mail from Terry Lambert, sie said:
> 
> > Hmmm, can __FreeBSD_sysversion be made the same value as __FreeBSD_version ?
> > (or vice versa)
> 
> 
> The easiest way is to install only RELEASE version of the OS, and don't
> update your kernel or user space sources until the next RELEASE.
> 
> It turns out that that also happens to be the easiest situation for
> a commercial vendor to support, so everyone gets to be happy.  8-).
> 
> 
> > The problem with __FreeBSD__ is that it is defined by cc - or gcc/pgcc.
> > 
> > That is, it depends on what system the compiler is built, not what OS
> > it is running on.
> > 
> > Problem being, it impacts every compilation thereafter.
> 
> I do not use the __FreeBSD__ tag, personally.

Okay, Terry, you don't use __FreeBSD__ and you don't use <osreldate.h>.

How do you write code that compiles & runs on FreeBSD 2.1.6 ->
FreeBSD-current ?

More importantly, how do you write kernel code for the same set of versions
without having n different source files ?

Darren

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 19:59:47 1997
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To: jbryant@tfs.net
Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers 
Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:43:50 CDT."
		<199704122243.RAA05171@argus> 
References: <199704122243.RAA05171@argus>  
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 20:59:31 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199704122243.RAA05171@argus> Jim Bryant writes:
: with new spread-spectrum rules, hams in the us will soon be using off
: the shelf equipment for up to T1+ speeds...  115.2k/s is now possible
: using low-cost commercial equipment in the 33cm (902-928MHz) band...
: 
: I believe that 10Mbps is soon to be available in the C-Band
: (5.65-5.925GHz); see the FCC ruling for Apple Computers and their Part
: 15 devices in this band...

I'd be *VERY* interested in finding out more about this.  We have a
definite use for this sort of thing if the price is reasonable.  Do
you have any URLs that you can point me at?

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 20:17:36 1997
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Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:17:00 -0300 (ADT)
From: The Hermit Hacker <scrappy@hub.org>
To: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: DES Challenge
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On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Ollivier Robert wrote:

> According to The Hermit Hacker:
> > 	Have you tried the bovine proxy stuff?  My machine hasn't had
> > to sit idle waiting for anything since I switched...we're currently
> > ranked 2nd on the bovine stats, just behind best.net, with 3rd not even
> > coming *close* to competing...and there are approx 6 proxy servers 
> > currently running...
> 
> I'm using the Bovine proxy stuff too and it is working perfectly. Haven't
> missed a key block for days now.

	Well, its just been reported that daver@dis.org just came back on
board as well, with, from what I can tell, 3 more FreeBSD boxes :)  Nope,
four of them.  3 Pentium Pros and 1 P133 :)  

	According to the bovine stats, we are about 1.27Mkeys/sec behind 
crackerz@best.net, and approx. 6900 blocks, so we have a bit of catching
up to do...our closest 'competitor' is 17k blocks behind  us, and doing
3.1Mkeys/sec less...so we don't have much of a chance of losing 2nd...just
wish we could push over that 1st place marker...Jordan? :)  We need you...?


Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 20:39:37 1997
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Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 22:04:50 -0700
From: Pedro Giffuni <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
CC: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, scrappy@hub.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry
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dennis wrote:
>
> There's too much "its fixed in -current" or "it'll be in the next release"
> and not enough commitment to getting fixes and important new feature
> into the short-term.
>
Oh...so you want more innovation and features? You have two options:
1) Use current; developers don't screw things to see "what happens
if..", they try to keep the system as best as they possibly can. I hate
this comparison, but think snapshots are something like MS's "betas". If
everyone reported the bugs they find in current there would be nothing
to fix in the release.
2) Use Linux, they have many more developers and do exactly what you
suggest. You probably know how their releases are (one unstable, one
stable shortly after the unstable one). Lot's of new features
guaranteed!

You would be surprised with the problems users in other BSD's have in
order to have their changes committed. Personally I am satisfied with
the releases. Innovations (like DOS emulation) usually get late to
FreeBSD, but when they arrive they are more stable and better
implemented. FreeBSD advances more rapidly that most commercial OSs, but
what makes it more valuable is that it is as stable as the commercial
versions.

> >
> >> 4) Lack of focus as to what FreeBSD is (jack of all trades, master
> >> of none)
> >
Who defines what is FreeBSD's locus: You?, me?, The core team?. "What
ever Bill Gates dislikes" ?
In an interview Linus admitted that Linux's objectives were never clear,
people simply implemented things and he chose what the features he liked
most.
We have our objectives (consult the handbook) but in general terms the
way we follow depends on what users want and developers can provide. In
our present case, having commercial options benefits users and
developers.

> Something to consider is that if your big enough, you dont have to
> have a focus because you have enough resources to do everything.

If your statement is true, you will always find someone bigger than you,
so you will have to have a locus anyway :).


Pedro.

> Dennis



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Apr 12 21:49:36 1997
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To: jbryant@tfs.net
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 12 Apr 1997 17:43:50 CDT."
             <199704122243.RAA05171@argus> 
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 21:49:33 -0700
Message-ID: <16474.860906973@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> may be..  but there are many many many hams around the world using
> AX.25 for packet radio operation...  i see uses for such a driver
> under FreeBSD...  The newest Linux kernels have recently realized the
> numbers and have done such a driver...

Well, OK.  So you're Mr. FreeBSD X.25 now? ;-)

Seriously, the biggest reason things "rot" in FreeBSD is that nobody
is actively maintaining them.  If you want to take on X.25 both
now and for the forseeable future, I see no problem with resurrecting
it.

					Jordan