From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 00:21:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21596 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA21591 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA13651; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:28:04 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:28:03 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: "az.com" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Multilink PPP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, az.com wrote: > What built in or third party software exists for multilink PPP on freeBSD? ftp.freebsd.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/mpd-1.0b.tgz > Are there artificial kernel restrictions that due not allow multiple > routes to the same destination? Multiple routes don't come into it. There is one route to a single process which talks to multiple serial lines. Works very well. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 00:35:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA22106 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailserv.tversu.ac.ru (root@mailserv.tversu.ac.ru [193.233.128.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22088; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from vadim@localhost) by mailserv.tversu.ac.ru (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA05138; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:34:47 +0400 Message-ID: <19970413113446.26166@tversu.ac.ru> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:34:46 +0400 From: Vadim Kolontsov To: freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ftpd bug (yes, again..) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.64 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, do you remeber a bug with "argc > 100" in ftpd_popen(), when users was able to kill your ftpd to produce core dump with shadow password? Ok, this bug (which was reported when 2.1 was the latest release) still presents in 2.2 & 3.0 Yes, ftpd was patched, but incompletely. It seems that this patches was never tested (although I didn't check a patch against "kill -11" yet) Here is an additional patch for 3.0's ftpd ============================== cut here ================================ *** popen.c.old Sun Apr 13 11:22:59 1997 --- popen.c Sun Apr 13 11:23:16 1997 *************** *** 95,101 **** /* glob each piece */ gargv[0] = argv[0]; ! for (gargc = argc = 1; argv[argc] && gargc < (MAXGLOBARGS-1); argc++) { glob_t gl; int flags = GLOB_BRACE|GLOB_NOCHECK|GLOB_QUOTE|GLOB_TILDE; --- 95,101 ---- /* glob each piece */ gargv[0] = argv[0]; ! for (gargc = argc = 1; argv[argc] && gargc < (MAXGLOBARGS-1) && argc < MAXUSRARGS; argc++) { glob_t gl; int flags = GLOB_BRACE|GLOB_NOCHECK|GLOB_QUOTE|GLOB_TILDE; ============================== cut here ================================ See the source code to understand why previous patch was incomplete - it's easy... BTW, wu-ftpd latest beta (13) still can be killed in this way... although wu-ftpd's maintainer was informed by me about 3 monthes ago. With best regards, Vadim. P.S. to test ftpd, do the following: telnet your.host 21 user ftp (or your userid, if you have no anonymous ftp) pass ftp@ (or your password) list x x x x x x x x x x x ... (around 3 lines will be enough ;) Bugged ftpdwill die here - "Connection closed by foreigh host". Now look for core dump, extract password, start your Crack :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vadim Kolontsov SysAdm/Programmer Tver Regional Center of New Information Technologies Networks Lab From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 00:36:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA22182 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22177 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [198.64.66.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA22912; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:33:39 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970413023332.007bd100@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:33:32 -0500 To: Michael Smith From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: 430TX ? Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, steve@visint.co.uk, langfod@dihelix.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704130128.KAA17951@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19970412103112.006b22b4@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 10:58 AM 4/13/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: >> Every Pentium CPU that Intel has ever made, starting four or five years >> ago with the very first P5, has had split I&D caches, so you shouldn't >> laugh at Intel in this case. > >The "laugh" proposal was a direct follow-on to the proposition that >Intel might be suggesting that split I&D was a 'breakthrough'. Yes, I know. I was just trying to clarify things. The discussion to that point had placed me in astonishment mode. :-o >... only if the CPU can get at both the I&D caches at the same time. >In most modern implementations, this is certainly the case, although >in single-chip micros this usually leads to lots of pins (expensive) >or putting the split cache onboard (size constraints). For Pentium and Pentium Pro, of course, it's the latter. >A deeper pipeline can often achieve equivalent results to this, >although you will correctly raise the problems with deep pipelines and >speculative execution/branch prediction, etc. and I will have to >concede that a short pipeline and fast cache access/decoding are >better 8) Yes, though I'd probably state it even more strongly. >> On the other hand, Intel's "dual independent bus architecture" was first >> put into the Pentium Pro and it refers to the separate L2 cache bus, made >> practical (due to the large number of signals involved) because the L2 >> caches were integrated. The Pentium II also has this feature, again made >> practical because the L2 caches are built into the processor module. >> This feature allows the CPU to access the L1 and L2 caches while the CPU >> bus is busy. > >Unless I'm missing something here, this basically just means that the L1 cache >got lots bigger, but now because it's slower, it too is cached. I think you're missing something here. ;-) The L1 cache is getting bigger but it's not getting slower. The L2 cache, which has traditionally been attached to the external CPU bus just like the memory controller and CPU-PCI bridge, is being attached to an independent bus on the "side" of the CPU instead of to the CPU/memory bus. This makes the CPU/memory bus available to other things (PCI bus masters, posted CPU memory bus cycles, etc.) while the L2 cache is being concurrently accessed by the CPU. It really makes a lot of sense when you think about it. >I sniff a manufacturing compromise here. What are you referring to? It's true that some manufacturing issues are improved by the newer designs, but that's not a bad thing. >> I can't speak for Intel, but Intel says this on its www site: "In >> addition, the Dual Independent Bus architecture supports the >> evolution of today’s 66 MHz system memory bus to a 100 MHz system >> memory bus within the next year." > >"we shortened some of the signals". Actually, it's because of some new signalling strategies, such as those used by synchronous DRAM, which relieve the signals from wiggling so fast. >> Since the CPU only has a 64 bit data bus, the extra bits are harder >> to take advantage of. > >You would have to brew your own memory controller (and possibly fiddle the >behaviour of the cache controller) to take advantage of a wider memory bus, >and it wouldn't buy you much. Right. It's mighty hard to get funding to design and build a custom memory controller these days, especially when the "over the counter" chipsets perform so well, unless you're in that business anyway. - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 00:41:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA22393 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA22386 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA13731; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:48:55 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:48:54 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Darren Reed cc: adam@veda.is, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections In-Reply-To: <199704120234.MAA07302@panda.hilink.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote: > In some mail from Daniel O'Callaghan, sie said: > > Have you read my earlier e-mail? This occurs because if you leave out > > the '-q' option 'flush' says "Flushed all rules". But when the tcp > > packets come to be sent, and error "Permission denied" is return, so > > telnetd/rlogind quite, kernel resets connection and the rest of > > rc.firewall is probably not executed. > > Hmmm, if it returned EHOSTUNREACH, would that be as bad as EPERM ? I don't know. It couldn't be that hard to test, but I'm not really up with predicting kernel behaviour in my head. A quick read indicates that ip_input() simply returns if its call to ip_fw_chk() returns -1, which is the case in a deny/reject. Since rule 65535 is a 'deny' rule, no ICMP is returned, as would be for 'reject'. I'm not quite sure where the EPERM comes from - that's just the error you see if you do (at the console) 'ipfw -f flush; ping localhost' Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 00:55:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA22743 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA22738 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA18796; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:24:10 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704130754.RAA18796@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: 430TX ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970413023332.007bd100@bugs.us.dell.com> from Tony Overfield at "Apr 13, 97 02:33:32 am" To: tony@dell.com (Tony Overfield) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:24:09 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, steve@visint.co.uk, langfod@dihelix.com, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tony Overfield stands accused of saying: > >Unless I'm missing something here, this basically just means that > >the L1 cache got lots bigger, but now because it's slower, it too > >is cached. > > I think you're missing something here. ;-) > > The L1 cache is getting bigger but it's not getting slower. The L2 cache, > which has traditionally been attached to the external CPU bus just like the > memory controller and CPU-PCI bridge, is being attached to an independent > bus on the "side" of the CPU instead of to the CPU/memory bus. This makes > the CPU/memory bus available to other things (PCI bus masters, posted CPU > memory bus cycles, etc.) while the L2 cache is being concurrently accessed > by the CPU. It really makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Oh, I agree that it makes sense, I'm just looking at it from the opposite angle; in effect what you're describing is the application of L1-cache access strategies to the L2 cache. Because the onboard L2 is so big though, it's on a seperate die (correct?) so it's slower than a "real" L1, so the existing L1 is still used to cache it. Actually, I wasn't aware that Intel were still hanging the cache off the external CPU bus; I would have thought the CPU/cache were on the other side of the cache controller, but obviously I'm wrong there 8) > >I sniff a manufacturing compromise here. > > What are you referring to? It's true that some manufacturing issues are > improved by the newer designs, but that's not a bad thing. The "ideal" way to go would be to have all the new onboard L2 available to L1 access policies, but that would make for an unmanufacturable die. Hence, the compromise - two dies, and a gradual fading of the L1/L2 distinction. > >> I can't speak for Intel, but Intel says this on its www site: "In > >> addition, the Dual Independent Bus architecture supports the > >> evolution of today’s 66 MHz system memory bus to a 100 MHz system > >> memory bus within the next year." > > > >"we shortened some of the signals". > > Actually, it's because of some new signalling strategies, such as > those used by synchronous DRAM, which relieve the signals from > wiggling so fast. Ok, so "we shortened some of the cycles". It still doesn't seem to have much to do with the DIB, other than perhaps with respect to bandwidth. I meant to add a '8)' to the above. > Tony -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 02:02:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA25270 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (mail.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA25265 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0wGLAg-000IC7C; Sun, 13 Apr 97 11:02 MET DST Received: by ernie.kts.org via sendmail with stdio id for jkh@time.cdrom.com; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:39:02 +0200 (MET DST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #2 built 1997-Feb-8) Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: jbryant@tfs.net Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:39:02 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704122243.RAA05171@argus> from "Jim Bryant" at Apr 12, 97 05:43:50 pm Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jim Bryant wrote: > may be.. but there are many many many hams around the world using > AX.25 for packet radio operation... i see uses for such a driver > under FreeBSD... While browsing for usable HDLC packages/sources i remeber that i found _many_ AX.25 packages for FreeBSD (mostly for older FreeBSD versions). Just have a look at the main sites carrying the KA9Q stuff, i'm shure you'll find many pointers to FreeBSD ports there. hellmuth -- hellmuth michaelis hm@kts.org hamburg, europe From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 02:03:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA25362 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA25350 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0wGLBl-00091dC; Sun, 13 Apr 97 02:03 PDT Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [198.64.66.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA22993; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 03:55:06 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970413035504.007ceb90@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 03:55:04 -0500 To: Michael Smith From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: 430TX ? Cc: steve@visint.co.uk, langfod@dihelix.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704130754.RAA18796@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19970413023332.007bd100@bugs.us.dell.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 05:24 PM 4/13/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: >Because the onboard L2 is >so big though, it's on a seperate die (correct?) Correct. The L2 die is separate. >so it's slower than a >"real" L1, so the existing L1 is still used to cache it. Well, yes. But that's the whole point of L1 and L2 caches. They're presumed to be in a hierarchy. Otherwise you'd just have a big single-level cache. 8-) >Actually, I wasn't aware that Intel were still hanging the cache off >the external CPU bus; I would have thought the CPU/cache were on the >other side of the cache controller, but obviously I'm wrong there 8) Pentium yes, Pentium II no. That's the essence of the issue. The Pentium has no integrated L2 cache, so you have to hook up the L2 cache to the external CPU bus. The Pentium II has the L2 cache already inside the CPU module, so it can be connected to an internal, dedicated, and private L2 bus (DIB). >The "ideal" way to go would be to have all the new onboard L2 >available to L1 access policies, but that would make for an >unmanufacturable die. Well, the ideal way to go would be to have an L1 cache that was very large. But, as you say, there's not enough space available to do that. > Hence, the compromise - two dies, and a gradual >fading of the L1/L2 distinction. You could imagine that the L1 cache is being absorbed into the CPU to the point that the L2 cache seems to be the L1 cache. But, for now at least, the L2 cache is still treated as an "external" device, though it does have a private interface so that it doesn't compete for bandwidth with the usual CPU interface. >Ok, so "we shortened some of the cycles". It still doesn't seem to >have much to do with the DIB, other than perhaps with respect to >bandwidth. Agreed. I was simply pointing out that Intel does intend to support greater than 66 MHz memory timings; a fact which had been called into question. - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 02:48:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA26399 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA26392 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704130948.CAA26392@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA070594531; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:42:11 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: kern/3244: ipfw flush closes connections To: danny@panda.hilink.com.au (Daniel O'Callaghan) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:42:11 +1000 (EST) Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, adam@veda.is, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Daniel O'Callaghan" at Apr 13, 97 05:48:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In some mail from Daniel O'Callaghan, sie said: > > > > On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote: > > > In some mail from Daniel O'Callaghan, sie said: > > > Have you read my earlier e-mail? This occurs because if you leave out > > > the '-q' option 'flush' says "Flushed all rules". But when the tcp > > > packets come to be sent, and error "Permission denied" is return, so > > > telnetd/rlogind quite, kernel resets connection and the rest of > > > rc.firewall is probably not executed. > > > > Hmmm, if it returned EHOSTUNREACH, would that be as bad as EPERM ? > > I don't know. It couldn't be that hard to test, but I'm not really up > with predicting kernel behaviour in my head. > > A quick read indicates that ip_input() simply returns if its call to > ip_fw_chk() returns -1, which is the case in a deny/reject. Since rule > 65535 is a 'deny' rule, no ICMP is returned, as would be for 'reject'. > > I'm not quite sure where the EPERM comes from - that's just the error you > see if you do (at the console) 'ipfw -f flush; ping localhost' Sorry, I meant EACCESS. It comes out as a result of a packet being denied. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 02:49:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA26468 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA26463 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA22068; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:49:18 -0700 (PDT) To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" cc: "az.com" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Multilink PPP In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:28:03 +1000." Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:49:18 -0700 Message-ID: <22065.860924958@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, az.com wrote: > > > What built in or third party software exists for multilink PPP on freeBSD? > > ftp.freebsd.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/mpd-1.0b.tgz Are any of the "whistlers" ever going to integrate this into FreeBSD so we can stop pointing people at this file? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 02:51:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA26559 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA26551 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA16114 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:51:04 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02576; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:42:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970413114250.GE62058@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:42:50 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <3.0.32.19970411094113.00691d28@etinc.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Christoph Haas on Apr 13, 1997 01:14:29 +0000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph Haas wrote: > Agreed, but I think that a vendor feels much more "at home" if you can > address him persoanlly. Just a simple mail saying "Hi, we know that you > rely on part xyz of FreeBSD, and we want to inform you that it is going > to change in the next RELEASE, You should have a look at CURRENT for > what's going on. Bye." would be enough. ...but is difficult enough to handle, either. Unlike for massive code changes like the Lite2 merges, the developer often doesn't know that somebody might be affected by his change. The only viable way i could imagine is to allow a vendor to `register' to the commit list by a regular expression to cut down his field of interest (as opposed to track any and all changes in a wide area as the commit lists are handled now). This way, a vendor interested in tracking all kernel networking changes could subscribe to ^src/sys/net.* for example. > Remember: FreeBSD rises and falls with the > applications that are availabel for it. Ever thought about why many > commercial apps are only available for L* (Star Office, Poet, > Mathematica, ...) ?! Certainly not due to the high degree of organization in the Linux project. :-)) This is the simple critical mass condition, nothing else, sometimes (StarDivision) coupled with the energy of developers that are using a particular system privately. We've been discussing this latter issue to death already, please followup to -chat if you think you have something to add to it. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 05:19:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA01284 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA01278; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704131218.FAA01278@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... To: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org (The Devil Himself) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Cc: giles@nemeton.com.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "The Devil Himself" at Apr 11, 97 08:19:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Devil Himself wrote: > > On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Giles Lean wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:50:43 -0700 "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > > > > how about creating HERE documents *inside* sysconfig which create > > > > /etc/resolv.conf, /etc/hosts, /etc/namedb.boot, ...... > > > > > > So they'd be regenerated each time you booted up? > > > > > > Hmmmm. That's not such a terrible idea, actually, ... > > > > Ouch! Yikes! NOOOOOOOOOOO! > > > > That way lies the errors and madness of AIX's ODM database-thingy and > > general confusion for all. > > > > Some configuration files just have to be grandfathered, most > > especially those that are often controlled or supplied by a network > > administrator. > > > > Giles > > > > I have to agree; I just became/got stuffed into being admin for an AIX > machine, and I don't even want to think about it all. I look in /etc, and > just about everything's symlinked all over the disk!! What happens in one > of those other partitions gets corrupted, and that's where the file you > need to fix it actually is?? Not to mention, just trying to ls -fl, you > can barely read it all. two different ideas are getting confused here. 1. replace files in /etc/with symlinks to /var/etc or /etc/local. 2. edit /etc/sysconfig to contain shell HERE documents. if a shell variable is set (CONFIGETC ?) then and only then are the HERE documents used to replace the contents of the files in /etc. the location _does_not_chnage_. to clone a box, all you would need to do is copy /etc/sysconfig to another computer and set CONFIGETC in /etc/sysconfig. if CONFIGETC is not set (default configuration) there are _no_changes_ to the present method of operation. jmb From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 05:37:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA02046 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02038 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA16072; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:36:53 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org (The Devil Himself), giles@nemeton.com.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:18:59 PDT." <199704131218.FAA01278@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:36:53 -0700 Message-ID: <16068.860935013@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 2. edit /etc/sysconfig to contain shell HERE documents. > if a shell variable is set (CONFIGETC ?) then and only then > are the HERE documents used to replace the contents of the > files in /etc. the location _does_not_chnage_. Maybe it's time for a proof-of-concept implementation, so we can stop arguing about intangibles (which are always the easiest things to argue about :-). Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 05:46:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA02341 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA02329 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 05:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id NAA23250; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:57:00 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199704131157.NAA23250@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:56:59 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, giles@nemeton.com.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199704131218.FAA01278@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Apr 13, 97 05:18:40 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I have to agree; I just became/got stuffed into being admin for an AIX > > machine, and I don't even want to think about it all. I look in /etc, and > > just about everything's symlinked all over the disk!! What happens in one > > of those other partitions gets corrupted, and that's where the file you > > need to fix it actually is?? Not to mention, just trying to ls -fl, you > > can barely read it all. that has been my experience as well. Nevertheless: > 1. replace files in /etc/with symlinks to /var/etc or /etc/local. this solves all the above problems. > 2. edit /etc/sysconfig to contain shell HERE documents. > if a shell variable is set (CONFIGETC ?) then and only then > are the HERE documents used to replace the contents of the > files in /etc. the location _does_not_chnage_. > > to clone a box, all you would need to do is copy /etc/sysconfig > to another computer and set CONFIGETC in /etc/sysconfig. i see two minor difficulties here, i) /etc/sysconfig might be run several times at boot time since different files might need its variables, and ii) a way is needed to make sysconfig reflect changes to the various files. The first is only (hopefully) a problem of efficiency, the second means that you cannot really clone a system using this method. Luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 06:19:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA03909 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA03899; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07596; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:06:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704131306.JAA07596@hda.hda.com> Subject: POSIX4 patches on freebsd.org To: current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:06:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I put POSIX4 patches on freefall in ~ftp/pub/dufault/posix4.tgz for feedback. These are against current as of this morning. I have verified that they apply against current, and I've built world with the last iteration, but I haven't actually verified that you can build world with these patches applied against today's current. I'm interested in feedback at the moment. These add: 1. An infrastructure for plugging in POSIX4 optional pieces at the option level; 2. sysctl and sysconf support for POSIX4; 3. Access control to posix 4 option level functionality through a /dev/posix4, permitting scheduler or memory locking to be restricted and not only at the root level; 4. An implementation of _POSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING; 5. Some regression tests. If you do try to build this you'll need to manually create the new directory /usr/src/sys/posix4, add options "POSIX4" to your config and add -DPOSIX4 to your /etc/make.conf. After that you should be able to build and load the LKM in the "posix4" subdirectory of the distribution, build the library in "libposix4" and build the tests in "regress". As long as you don't include required but as yet non-existent headers unrelated to _POSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING and use only _POSIX_PRIORITY_SCHEDULING functions this should work properly. What I'd like now is: 1. Some discussion of how this should be interfaced to the kernel. At the moment it is through an ioctl against a pseudo device. This is non-traditional and doesn't play well with ktrace. However, if every POSIX4 function gets a system call I need many new system calls. If every POSIX4 option gets a system call I need about 16 new system calls. Is there a limit of 255 in the number of system calls? 2. Review of the scheduler changes. 3. Review of whether it seems POSIX compliant. Where I go next is: 1. Modify to whatever we decide is the appropriate kernel interface. 2. Add all required POSIX4 headers. 3. Add man pages. Peter NB: DO NOT GROUP REPLY to this message as it is on two lists for announcement purposes. Follow up privately or to -hackers only. -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 06:22:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA04070 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA04065 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id OAA23332; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:33:47 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199704131233.OAA23332@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:33:46 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <16068.860935013@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 13, 97 05:36:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Maybe it's time for a proof-of-concept implementation, so we can > stop arguing about intangibles (which are always the easiest things > to argue about :-). the simplest way to implement the /etc -> /var/etc idea would be to have the kernel load say /etc_rc instead of /etc/rc (one byte change in the kernel!), which would contain the following: /etc_rc: #!/bin/sh stty status '^T' trap : 2 trap : 3 HOME=/; export HOME PATH=/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/sbin export PATH swapon -a VARFS=/dev/wd0e # or whatever, e.g. /dev/vn0... ### using VARFS you don't need /etc/fstab here... ### do whatever is needed to mount /var ### truly diskless system might need to mount /usr and/or /home ### in order to do ### vnconfig /dev/vn0 /home/my.var.image mount $VARFS /var exec /etc/rc Existing /etc/rc can be pretty much unchanged (perhaps with the only exception of the line specifying "umount -a ..." I am uncertain if both / and /var are locked at that point and will not be unmounted. Now, do you like it this way ? Cheers Luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 06:30:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA04480 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1.world.net (pdx1.world.net [192.243.32.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04469 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:30:10 -0700 (PDT) From: proff@suburbia.net Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by pdx1.world.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA04242 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25394 invoked by uid 110); 13 Apr 1997 12:58:35 -0000 Message-ID: <19970413125835.25393.qmail@suburbia.net> Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... In-Reply-To: <16068.860935013@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Apr 13, 97 05:36:53 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:58:35 +1000 (EST) Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, giles@nemeton.com.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 2. edit /etc/sysconfig to contain shell HERE documents. > > if a shell variable is set (CONFIGETC ?) then and only then > > are the HERE documents used to replace the contents of the > > files in /etc. the location _does_not_chnage_. > > Maybe it's time for a proof-of-concept implementation, so we can > stop arguing about intangibles (which are always the easiest things > to argue about :-). > > Jordan The problem is that there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason in relation to what gets commited and what does not. It isn't a predictable enviroment and so developers want assurances before they start wasting their time. Julian. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 06:47:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05220 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05213 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA14454; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:45:25 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:45:23 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi Reply-To: Narvi To: Amancio Hasty cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 430TX ? In-Reply-To: <199704122002.NAA08538@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Hmmm... > > Does DEC have a motherboard for PC with 64bit slots? No :-( But they do make SMP Pentium Pro servers (upto 4 CPU) with a 256 bit (4-way interleaved) memory bus and dual peered PCI buses (? - does it mean there are two PCI busses?). They can take either 166/200 PPros with 512K caches and also have Mylex RAID on boad. See the ZX 6000 servers :-) The ZX5000 Pentium boards can take upto 4 Pentiums + 1Mb cache per processor and have 128 bit 2-way interleaved memory. And no - I don't have such a box. And this isn't an ad. Compaq, IBM and HP have similar boards. Sander > > Cheers, > Amancio > > >From The Desk Of Narvi : > > > > > > Sorry, I snipped the CC: list quite a bit... - hope no one get offended [snip] > > > > Well, there are at least for PowerPC - the Motorola Atlas(?)/ MTX > > motherboard has one 64bit slot and 2 32-bit slots. I guess all that is > > needed for a PC chipset having 64 bit PCI is a CPU-host controller, > > interfacing anything else (including ISA?) to it using Digitals 64/64 and > > 64/32 PCI bridges. > > > > Sander From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 06:51:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05471 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05466 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (localhost.lan.awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29602; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:47:29 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199704131347.OAA29602@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Daniel O'Callaghan" , "az.com" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Multilink PPP In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 02:49:18 PDT." <22065.860924958@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:47:28 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, az.com wrote: > > > > > What built in or third party software exists for multilink PPP on freeBSD? > > > > ftp.freebsd.org:/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/mpd-1.0b.tgz > > Are any of the "whistlers" ever going to integrate this into FreeBSD > so we can stop pointing people at this file? :-) I could certainly have a crack at it (I can't whistle too good though). Any objections ? > Jordan -- Brian , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 06:54:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05638 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA05633 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id PAA23441; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:05:44 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199704131305.PAA23441@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:05:43 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199704131233.OAA23332@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Apr 13, 97 02:33:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > the simplest way to implement the /etc -> /var/etc idea would be > to have the kernel load say /etc_rc instead of /etc/rc (one byte > change in the kernel!), which would contain the following: s/kernel/sbin\/init/ of course... Luigi From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 06:57:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05750 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05744; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id IAA06898; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:57:24 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704131357.IAA06898@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: POSIX4 patches on freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704131306.JAA07596@hda.hda.com> from Peter Dufault at "Apr 13, 97 09:06:51 am" To: dufault@hda.com (Peter Dufault) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:57:24 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I put POSIX4 patches on freefall in ~ftp/pub/dufault/posix4.tgz for > feedback. > I happen to be super interested in POSIX4 right now. I am going to review right now. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 07:21:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06843 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA06837 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA18565 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:21:17 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA00378; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:59:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970413155943.PK25038@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:59:43 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <199704131218.FAA01278@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704131218.FAA01278@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Apr 13, 1997 05:18:59 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > 2. edit /etc/sysconfig to contain shell HERE documents. > if a shell variable is set (CONFIGETC ?) then and only then > are the HERE documents used to replace the contents of the > files in /etc. the location _does_not_chnage_. But you remember that shell here documents use (hidden) tempfiles, thus require a writable /tmp? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 07:28:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07038 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07021 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA16478; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:27:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Luigi Rizzo cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:33:46 +0200." <199704131233.OAA23332@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:27:47 -0700 Message-ID: <16475.860941667@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Existing /etc/rc can be pretty much unchanged (perhaps with the > only exception of the line specifying "umount -a ..." I am uncertain > if both / and /var are locked at that point and will not be unmounted. > > Now, do you like it this way ? Uh, no. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 07:38:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07462 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.aceonline.com.au (obiwan.aceonline.com.au [203.103.90.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07456 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.aceonline.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA00583; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:26:14 +0800 (WST) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:26:13 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Christoph Kukulies cc: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD pros (was Re: linux 128 MB limit) In-Reply-To: <199704121535.RAA19282@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Does the limitation of the linux kernel to 128 MB Ram still exist? > > > > Whoops, wrong list... > > You mean I should have asked in -hackers ? > OK, anyone knowing - I'm seeking for further pros for FreeBSD - > if there is an inherent 128 MB limitation in linux kernels? > Sorry .. limitation to 128mb? I know of machines on both Linux and FreeBSD which run >128mb RAM. (In fact, I know of a Linux box running with over 400mb RAM). Cya Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 07:46:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07803 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07796 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA16573; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:46:13 -0700 (PDT) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:59:43 +0200." <19970413155943.PK25038@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 07:46:12 -0700 Message-ID: <16569.860942772@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > 2. edit /etc/sysconfig to contain shell HERE documents. > > if a shell variable is set (CONFIGETC ?) then and only then > > are the HERE documents used to replace the contents of the > > files in /etc. the location _does_not_chnage_. > > But you remember that shell here documents use (hidden) tempfiles, > thus require a writable /tmp? Heh heh, I just knew there was a fly in the ointment here somewhere! ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 09:01:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA11535 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11523 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem17.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.47]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27134; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:04:34 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <335119F2.19A1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:37:54 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers References: <16474.860906973@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Seriously, the biggest reason things "rot" in FreeBSD is that nobody > is actively maintaining them. If you want to take on X.25 both > now and for the forseeable future, I see no problem with resurrecting > it. > Jordan Is there a place for rotten FreeBSD thingies? Perhaps when the big changes in 3.0 are over and the interfaces documented we can resurrect many of them that don't require much maintainance (OSI, X25..and so on). Pedro. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 09:04:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA11718 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11307 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 08:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA15415; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:57:37 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:57:31 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 430TX ? In-Reply-To: <199704121845.LAA15464@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk { Sorr, but I don't like CC: lists *that* long, so I shortened it - hope all are subscribed to -hackers. } On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Right. If you look at the Mips, Alpha, PowerPC, Sparc, etc.. They all > > > have 1-2Meg caches on the higher end systems. > > > > ...1-2M is a small cache, IMO. We have an Alpha with a 4M cache, and are > > getting some with 16M cache.. > > The real pain is that no one seems to be doing anything about getting > SRAM density up... the only benefit DRAM has over SRAM is its density... > everything else favors SRAM. > > 4MB SRAM simms (12 ns) are available now. But where shall you plug them into? I really doubt any present PC/PowerPC/Alpha chipset is capable of making use of SRAM. Though it would make wonders to applicatiions hindered by present memory throughput Sander > Regards, > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 09:08:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA11877 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-25.netcom.ca [207.181.94.89]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11872 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id NAA15378; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:08:03 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:08:03 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: rsacrack@vex.net Subject: DES Crack Challenge - Quick Followup Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... In an attempt to try and get a better idea of how we are doing, statistically, as a team, Paul Chovostk(sp?) has setup a proxy server on suck.it.ca... For those using the bovine clients, use something like: rc5 -a suck.it.ca rsacrack@vex.net to connect. To see how we are doing, as far as proxy server is concerned, go to: http://bovine.st.hmc.edu/cgi-bin/proxyinfo.exe To see how we are doing "group" wise, check out: http://bovine.st.hmc.edu/statproc.html (updated every 10 minutes) And, finally...to get clients, go to: http://bovine.st.hmc.edu Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 09:11:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12075 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12065 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA17411; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:10:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Pedro Giffuni cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:37:54 PDT." <335119F2.19A1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:10:44 -0700 Message-ID: <17408.860947844@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is there a place for rotten FreeBSD thingies? Perhaps when the big Yeah, the bit-bucket. :-) Seriously, if something is rotten then it probably needs throwing out, not preserving. Things rot for a reason, after all, and without users for a feature, what's the point? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 09:33:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12807 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12802 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dbws.etinc.com (db@dbws.etinc.com [204.141.95.130]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA22300; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970413123120.006cce20@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:31:25 -0400 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jbryant@tfs.net From: dennis Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 03:16 PM 4/12/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Can anyone tell me anything about the BSD X.25 drivers, and whether or not >> they are usable? > >They are not usable. They may have been at one time, but they have >rotted through disuse. > >> I am interested in possibly adding a AX.25 kernel-level driver... > >By all means! > >> This is the second time I have posted a message on this topic, and am >> wondering if the first one was read? > >Probably, it's just that X.25 is about as popular and interesting a >topic for most folks as a paper tape driver, hence the lack of >response. :-) Thats about as informed an opinion as I'd expect from unix geeks! :) X.25 is the most popular protocol in the world...still. Sorry to break it to you. db From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 09:37:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13089 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1.world.net (pdx1.world.net [192.243.32.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13075 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:37:40 -0700 (PDT) From: proff@suburbia.net Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [203.4.184.1]) by pdx1.world.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA04559 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 06:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26307 invoked by uid 110); 13 Apr 1997 13:26:09 -0000 Message-ID: <19970413132609.26306.qmail@suburbia.net> Subject: ipfilter-proff-final2.shar.gz To: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:26:09 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Some of you may recall that I believed the ipfilter state following code was buggy and was leaking mbufs. I've isolated the problem, and without going into details fixed it. The issue was significant enough that I felt a new snapshot was required. ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/ipfilter-proff-final2.shar.gz Hopefully I can now go back into retirement :) -- Prof. Julian Assange |If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people |together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks proff@suburbia.net |and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless proff@gnu.ai.mit.edu |immensity of the sea. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 09:42:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13387 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13370; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dbws.etinc.com (db@dbws.etinc.com [204.141.95.130]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA22352; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970413124059.006cbdfc@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:41:04 -0400 To: dyson@freebsd.org From: dennis Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 06:47 PM 4/12/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >> >> >Those who are making money with FreeBSD/Linux/whatever at least have the >> >power to get those things done. The developers of FreeBSD donate their >> >time, others who make use of it are welcome to improve FreeBSD by donating >> >other things :-). >> >> Thats fine, but then you should resign yourselves to having a cult OS and >> not whimper >> about "commercial registries", as if thats going to make a difference. >> >The whimpering that has been happening hasn't been from me. I am saying >that if someone wants something, begging won't fix the problem. The >tools exist to fix the problem, and all it takes is deciding to do the >things to make things happen. One can contribute money, one can >contribute time, or maybe even both in order to get the results that >one wants. > >Many of the things that I do have been supported by commercial need. Directly >or indirectly there is often compensation for my time (like there is for >others.) When I am not doing something for hire, I work on various parts >of the infrastructure that need to be worked on. Others often do that also. > >So, my suggestion is that if a change from the current course is wanted, and >no-one is willing to donate the time for free, those that want the change >can do it, or fund (or otherwise enable) the change. Its really not feasible, unfortunately. The only way to do it is become a BSDI, which is a serious step. Or, take a snapshot and maintain it as...say, a router O/S, like OpenBSD has done. Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 09:46:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13576 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13568 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dbws.etinc.com (db@dbws.etinc.com [204.141.95.130]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA22399; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:53:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970413124511.006cd410@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:45:14 -0400 To: hm@kts.org, jbryant@tfs.net From: dennis Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 10:39 AM 4/13/97 +0200, Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: >Jim Bryant wrote: > >> may be.. but there are many many many hams around the world using >> AX.25 for packet radio operation... i see uses for such a driver >> under FreeBSD... > >While browsing for usable HDLC packages/sources i remeber that i found >_many_ AX.25 packages for FreeBSD (mostly for older FreeBSD versions). > >Just have a look at the main sites carrying the KA9Q stuff, i'm shure >you'll find many pointers to FreeBSD ports there. > We'd be happy to work with someone commited to making this stuff usable. We have hardware LAPB and an option level 3 API that could be integrated without a major effort. Dennis >hellmuth >-- >hellmuth michaelis hm@kts.org hamburg, europe > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 10:14:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14648 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14641; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id MAA12029; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:14:21 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704131714.MAA12029@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413124059.006cbdfc@etinc.com> from dennis at "Apr 13, 97 12:41:04 pm" To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:14:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > >So, my suggestion is that if a change from the current course is wanted, and > >no-one is willing to donate the time for free, those that want the change > >can do it, or fund (or otherwise enable) the change. > > Its really not feasible, unfortunately. The only way to do it is become a > BSDI, > which is a serious step. Or, take a snapshot and maintain it as...say, a > router > O/S, like OpenBSD has done. > Well, an OpenBSD developer has likely had support to do exactly what they are doing in that area or has invested time for a potential product. Many FreeBSD developers are being funded and/or supported for various applications also (including one like that.) Those who want changes, and are supporting them, are likely getting them quickly. One can increase the probability of change by contributing to FreeBSD or by funding it. Simply waiting for it to happen is not being proactive. Changes and improvements will appear over time, but the priorities can be modified by supporting them. There are at least a couple of motivations for a particular developer to fix things. First, it is an issue of pride, second it is an issue of funding. Really gross problems usually get fixed relatively quickly, but there are times where there are conflicting resource dependencies, and then it becomes a resource allocation issue. We can either risk one part of the project for another, or we can bring more resources to bear on the various enhancements and problems. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 10:21:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14840 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14835 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA20995 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:20:48 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17682; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:52:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970413185254.EU36274@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:52:54 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: time.h and strptime() References: <165D940071@smtp.dancooks.com> <199704110016.JAA07289@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704110016.JAA07289@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Apr 11, 1997 09:46:08 +0930 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > How about you write a manpage for strptime and let's see if we can't > get it into the tree then... The source code has been posted to the ports list recently. It had a BSD-style copyright. I'm all for integrating it into libc. We've also integrated saprintf(), for similar reasons. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 11:09:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16722 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p3.tfs.net [206.154.183.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA16704 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA06688; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:08:23 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704131808.NAA06688@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: kgor@inetspace.com (Kent S. Gordon) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:08:13 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704131555.KAA13761@chess.inetspace.com> from "Kent S. Gordon" at Apr 13, 97 10:55:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > From POPmail Sun Apr 13 12:40:10 1997 > X-POP3-Rcpt: jbryant@unix > Return-Path: kgor@chess.inetspace.com > Received: from chess.inetspace.com (chess.inetspace.com [206.50.163.14]) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14847 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:50:47 -0500 > Received: (from kgor@localhost) by chess.inetspace.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA13761; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:55:58 -0500 (CDT) > Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 10:55:58 -0500 (CDT) > Message-Id: <199704131555.KAA13761@chess.inetspace.com> > From: "Kent S. Gordon" > To: jbryant@tfs.net > In-reply-to: <199704122243.RAA05171@argus> (message from Jim Bryant on Sat, 12 > Apr 1997 17:43:50 -0500 (CDT)) > Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers > Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.105) > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > may be.. but there are many many many hams around the world > > using AX.25 for packet radio operation... i see uses for such a > > driver under FreeBSD... The newest Linux kernels have recently > > realized the numbers and have done such a driver... > What are the current requirement to operate packet radio equipment in > the US? Under FCC Part 15 rules, on approved equipment, such as the high speed stuff I mentioned, anyone can, unlicensed, and for any legal purpose. Since these Part 15 devices operate on a secodary basis, they must not interfere with, and must accept interference from the primary band users, and in the promising products, it is in the Amateur Radio bands. Keep in mind though that these are spread spectrum devices, and will accept a level of interference, and generally it merely raises the noise floor a little bit for other band users. > > with new spread-spectrum rules, hams in the us will soon be > > using off the shelf equipment for up to T1+ speeds... 115.2k/s > > is now possible using low-cost commercial equipment in the 33cm > > (902-928MHz) band... > Any idea of the expense of this equipment? What type of power/range > is this equipment? Under $500 for the above mentioned commercially made equipment... Part 15 limits these unlicensed devices to 1 watt output power. This is good for line of sight paths. Since the primary band user in these cases is Amateur Radio, the legal upper limit on power for a licensed Amateur with at least a Technician class license is 1500 Watts PEP. This power level can open up such possibilities as troposperic scattering, tropospheric ducting, and other esoteric long distance modes... But generally most people will be running 100 Watts or less, this is still essentially a line of sight band, and there are possible biological effects involved with running high power levels at these frequencies [ever put a frequency counter next to your microwave oven?]... One other thing to note would be that Amateur Radio licensees are prohibited from operating their equipment for for commercial gain. But then again, operating at the 1 Watt Part 15 level, using Part 15 approved equipment, you can do anything you want with it. > > I believe that 10Mbps is soon to be available in the C-Band > > (5.65-5.925GHz); see the FCC ruling for Apple Computers and > > their Part 15 devices in this band... See the FCC's Apple Computers ruling approving these devices for manufacture and sale... In the C-Band, Amateurs regularly get good quality [noise-quieting FM] voice contacts on line of sight paths of over 100 miles on just a few watts with a two foot dish... > Kent S. Gordon > Senior Software Engineer > INetSpace Co. > voice: (972)851-3494 fax:(972)702-0384 e-mail:kgor@inetspace.com Jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 11:09:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA16799 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA16753; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wGTiL-0005zj-00; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:09:21 -0600 To: Vadim Kolontsov Subject: Re: ftpd bug (yes, again..) Cc: freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:34:46 +0400." <19970413113446.26166@tversu.ac.ru> References: <19970413113446.26166@tversu.ac.ru> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:09:21 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <19970413113446.26166@tversu.ac.ru> Vadim Kolontsov writes: : Now look for core dump, extract password, start your Crack :) Fail to find core dump, become bummed :-( The kernel won't produce a core in these cases. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 11:21:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17248 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17242 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wGTtO-00060v-00; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:20:46 -0600 To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:14:21 CDT." <199704131714.MAA12029@dyson.iquest.net> References: <199704131714.MAA12029@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:20:46 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OpenBSD changes happen the same way that FreeBSD changes happen: because someone is motivated to fix them or contribute them. What the motivation is, or how the motivations happen may differ, but it is still the same thing. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 11:25:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17368 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p3.tfs.net [206.154.183.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17363 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA06722; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:24:50 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704131824.NAA06722@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:24:46 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <16474.860906973@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 12, 97 09:49:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > may be.. but there are many many many hams around the world using > > AX.25 for packet radio operation... i see uses for such a driver > > under FreeBSD... The newest Linux kernels have recently realized the > > numbers and have done such a driver... > > Well, OK. So you're Mr. FreeBSD X.25 now? ;-) I guess so :^) I got burned out on building internet companies controlled by short-sighted people with the intelligence of a garden slug... Maybe I'll change my mind on that if I can find some investors serious about being #1, and get a nice share for the effort, but until then... > Seriously, the biggest reason things "rot" in FreeBSD is that nobody > is actively maintaining them. If you want to take on X.25 both > now and for the forseeable future, I see no problem with resurrecting > it. You got it.. er, I guess I got it :^) My initial focus will be on AX.25, given that I have the facilities to test the implimentation myself, as well as do a little bit of FreeBSD public relations... KC5VDJ>BEACON,R0MIR*: :FreeBSD r0X Da W3rLd!@# [Watch for my beacon being relayed by a Space Station near you] :^) Muhahahahahahah!@#@# Jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 11:26:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17407 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17402 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wGTqz-00060j-00; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:18:17 -0600 To: Narvi Subject: Re: 430TX ? Cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:57:31 +0300." References: Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:18:17 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Narvi writes: : 4MB SRAM simms (12 ns) are available now. But where shall you plug : them into? I really doubt any present PC/PowerPC/Alpha chipset is capable : of making use of SRAM. Though it would make wonders to applicatiions : hindered by present memory throughput I have a R4700 based MIPS board that uses 4M SRAM SIMM-like things. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 11:31:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17681 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17639; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA22084; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:30:29 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00515; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:26:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970413202630.CY09639@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:26:30 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Cc: core@freebsd.org (FreeBSD core team) Subject: freefall:/f/NetBSD X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Since it seems that the /f drive on freefall is now working stable again, i finally resurrected NetBSD-current under /f/NetBSD. Feel free to use it from there. It's being re-supped each night at 0308 freefall time. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 11:35:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA18003 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA17995; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dbws.etinc.com (db@dbws.etinc.com [204.141.95.130]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA23070; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970413143341.00693478@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:33:45 -0400 To: "John S. Dyson" From: dennis Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 12:14 PM 4/13/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >> > >> >So, my suggestion is that if a change from the current course is wanted, and >> >no-one is willing to donate the time for free, those that want the change >> >can do it, or fund (or otherwise enable) the change. >> >> Its really not feasible, unfortunately. The only way to do it is become a >> BSDI, >> which is a serious step. Or, take a snapshot and maintain it as...say, a >> router >> O/S, like OpenBSD has done. >> >Well, an OpenBSD developer has likely had support to do exactly what they are >doing in that area or has invested time for a potential product. Many FreeBSD >developers are being funded and/or supported for various applications also >(including one like that.) Those who want changes, and are supporting them, are >likely getting them quickly. One can increase the probability of change by >contributing to FreeBSD or by funding it. > >Simply waiting for it to happen is not being proactive. Changes and >improvements will appear over time, but the priorities can be modified >by supporting them. > >There are at least a couple of motivations for a particular developer to fix >things. First, it is an issue of pride, second it is an issue of funding. >Really gross problems usually get fixed relatively quickly, but there are >times where there are conflicting resource dependencies, and then it becomes >a resource allocation issue. We can either risk one part of the project >for another, or we can bring more resources to bear on the various >enhancements and problems. The problem with funding fundamentals like networking is that some banana with a different philosophy is likely to either undo your changes or make other changes that compromise it. You'd have to maintain it yourself to make it worthwhile. Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 11:52:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA18704 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gvr.win.tue.nl (root@gvr.win.tue.nl [131.155.210.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA18699; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from guido@localhost) by gvr.win.tue.nl (8.8.5/8.8.2) id UAA15689; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:51:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Guido van Rooij Message-Id: <199704131851.UAA15689@gvr.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: ftpd bug (yes, again..) In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Apr 13, 97 12:09:21 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:51:31 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: vadim@tversu.ac.ru, freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh wrote: > In message <19970413113446.26166@tversu.ac.ru> Vadim Kolontsov writes: > : Now look for core dump, extract password, start your Crack :) > > Fail to find core dump, become bummed :-( The kernel won't produce a > core in these cases. > Not on 2.1 I think. On 2.2 ftpd will not coredump (deliberately) -Guido From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 11:55:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA18923 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA18903; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 11:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wGUQ3-00067B-00; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:54:31 -0600 To: Guido van Rooij Subject: Re: ftpd bug (yes, again..) Cc: vadim@tversu.ac.ru, freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:51:31 +0200." <199704131851.UAA15689@gvr.win.tue.nl> References: <199704131851.UAA15689@gvr.win.tue.nl> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:54:31 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199704131851.UAA15689@gvr.win.tue.nl> Guido van Rooij writes: : Warner Losh wrote: : > In message <19970413113446.26166@tversu.ac.ru> Vadim Kolontsov writes: : > : Now look for core dump, extract password, start your Crack :) : > : > Fail to find core dump, become bummed :-( The kernel won't produce a : > core in these cases. : > : : Not on 2.1 I think. On 2.2 ftpd will not coredump (deliberately) I thought the core dump patches had been backported to the 2.1 branch, post 2.1.7. Am I mistaken? Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 12:11:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19382 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gvr.win.tue.nl (root@gvr.win.tue.nl [131.155.210.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19376; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from guido@localhost) by gvr.win.tue.nl (8.8.5/8.8.2) id VAA15840; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:10:24 +0200 (MET DST) From: Guido van Rooij Message-Id: <199704131910.VAA15840@gvr.win.tue.nl> Subject: Re: ftpd bug (yes, again..) In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Apr 13, 97 12:54:31 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:10:24 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: vadim@tversu.ac.ru, freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh wrote: > In message <199704131851.UAA15689@gvr.win.tue.nl> Guido van Rooij writes: > : Warner Losh wrote: > : > In message <19970413113446.26166@tversu.ac.ru> Vadim Kolontsov writes: > : > : Now look for core dump, extract password, start your Crack :) > : > > : > Fail to find core dump, become bummed :-( The kernel won't produce a > : > core in these cases. > : > > : > : Not on 2.1 I think. On 2.2 ftpd will not coredump (deliberately) > > I thought the core dump patches had been backported to the 2.1 > branch, post 2.1.7. Am I mistaken? RELENG_2_2_1_RELEASE: 1.26.2.1 RELENG_2_2_0_RELEASE: 1.26.2.1 RELENG_2_1_7_RELEASE: 1.11.4.2 RELENG_2_1_6_1_RELEASE: 1.11.4.2 RELENG_2_1_6_RELEASE: 1.11.4.2 RELENG_2_1_5_RELEASE: 1.11.4.1 revision 1.11.4.2 date: 1996/10/19 01:07:38; author: davidg; state: Exp; lines: +3 -4 Brought in change from revs 1.19/1.26: check for P_SUGID before coredumping. So it's not in 2.1.5, but it is in 2.1.6 and further. -Guido From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 12:24:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19956 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.risc.org (taob@trt-on22-13.netcom.ca [207.181.87.205]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19949 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by alpha.risc.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA21565 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:24:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: FREEBSD-HACKERS-L Subject: Maximizing NFS server performance Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Given two fast systems (both at least P200's) and a crossover fast Ethernet cable between them, one an NFS client and the other an NFS server, what options do I have to maximize the performance of the NFS server? It will be running FreeBSD with a couple of ultrawide controllers and a handful of disks attached to it. I need to move about 600,000 files totalling 12 gigabytes from one system to another. Since the directory organization is changing, I can't use FTP or tape backup to migrate the data. Using a loopback NFS mount in a P200 running 3.0-970124-SNAP, it takes almost two minutes to copy my 23MB /usr/src/sys hierarchy (2277 files). A dd from /dev/zero to a file on the same NFS filesystem can only write about 550K of data per second. I was hoping to see 10 times that level of performance. :( I recall an async option to mount_nfs back in FreeBSD 2.1, but I can't find it documented anyhwere. Is there anything else I can do to improve NFS performance? -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 12:27:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20107 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p3.tfs.net [206.154.183.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA20101 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA06896; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:27:40 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704131927.OAA06896@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org (The Devil Himself) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:27:39 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: from "The Devil Himself" at Apr 13, 97 11:41:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Jim Bryant wrote: > > > > Jim > > -- > > All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, > > think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or > > radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > It could be just me, and it's been QUITE a while since I've seen any of > them, but wasn't he #6? > > > jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable > 73, N3TZJ 2-meter FM I think that so very few people understood the opening sequence of "The Prisoner", even he himself I don't think got it until they explained it in the final episode... Quoth the opening sequence: "Who are you?" "I am Number Two." "Who is Number One?" "You are, Number Six" Got to remember that a lot of the plot was about subtrifuge [sp?] and double-talk... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 13:00:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA21249 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.cybernet.com (gateway.cybernet.com [192.245.33.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21227; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spiffy.cybernet.com (spiffy.cybernet.com [192.245.33.55]) by gateway.cybernet.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA05967; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Cybernet Systems Corporation From: Mark Taylor To: hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org Subject: vnode as filesystem (crash!) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm trying to use a vnode as a file system. I have no problem "vnconfig"ing and "newfs"ing it (a 10 MB test case, derived from "dd" and /dev/zero). The problem comes when I start creating files on the mounted vnode. I can get a few hundred files created (this is a random number: sometimes a few hundred, but never more than two thousand), and then it hangs the system (actually, sometimes it causes a reboot). No panics, no kernel messages, just a hang/reboot. I haven't tried the kernel debugger yet (I don't know how to use it [yet].). :) OS is FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE. I've tried it on five other machines, all with the same results. (All machines have at least 100 MBytes of swap space, if that matters. None of which is used during these tests, though). The results are universal, and exactly the same. I've come up with a "fix": 1) In the makefiles script, I cause a 'sync' every 100 files created, and all is fine- all of the 7500 files get created. 2) Instead of the /bin/sync in the script, I change kern.update from the default 30 to 5. All 7500 files get made, no problem. So there seems to be a problem with the vm/fs cache? I'd hate to live with a 5 second update time. The sequence of events is: dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/T0 bs=1024 count=10240 vnconfig -c -s labels /dev/vn0 /tmp/T0 disklabel -w -r vn0 tenmeg newfs -i 1024 /dev/vn0a # need lots of inodes for makefiles created files mount /dev/vn0a /mnt /root/bin/makefiles # script to create 100 files per directory of 1k each (system hangs/reboots in a few seconds, no messages) The disklabel tenmeg (from /etc/distab): tenmeg:ty=mfs:se#512:nt#1:rm#300:\ :ns#20480:nc#1:\ :pa#20480:oa#0:ba#4096:fa#512:ta=4.2BSD:\ :pc#20480:oc#0:bc#4096:fc#512: The "makefiles" script: (it's a hack- no comments please!) #!/bin/csh set i=0 set files=100 mkdir $files; cd $files while ( `/bin/test $files -gt 7500; echo -n $status` ) # echo -n "$files " if ( `/bin/test $i -ne 100; echo -n $status` ) then echo "$files" #/bin/sync cd .. mkdir $files cd $files set i=0 endif @ i++ dd if=/dev/zero of=$i bs=1024 count=1 >& /dev/null @ files++ end echo "" Please include my email address in responses, as I am not directly on the hackers list. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark J. Taylor Network R&D Manager Cybernet Systems mtaylor@cybernet.com 727 Airport Blvd. PHONE (313) 668-2567 Ann Arbor, MI 48108 FAX (313) 668-8780 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 13:20:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22060 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22044 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA01198; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:20:05 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:20 EDT Received: from lakes.water.net (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.water.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10046 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:01:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.water.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) id QAA22110 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:08:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199704132008.QAA22110@lakes.water.net> To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers Subject: Re: 2.2.1/amd problems Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As J"org wrote: > > > As M.Sapsed wrote: > > > > More of a problem is that my automounted (via > > > amd) home directory fails to appear when doing an ls or anything else, > > > although it is mounted and ls of small subdirectories works fine. The > > > home directory has 221 entries and another subdirectory which fails has > > > 162 (I know they're large but they should work!) If I ask for ls on > > > these dirs, it just sits there for about 30 mins until a message > > > > > > /kernel: nfs server server:/path/path: not responding > > > > > > appears. If you then do ctrl-C you get a prompt back and can get an > > > instant listing of the smaller directories. > > Mike Murphy reported me a similar problem (there's even PR # bin/1872 > open for it), where he finally found that the problem was the slow > 8-bit ethernet card of his server. Setting NFS readdir size down to > 1024 might help, but amd doesn't offer this option. Frankly, amd's > option handling in this respect just sucks, there are more options to > mount_nfs(8) now that are not supported by amd (like the NFSv3 stuff). > > -- > cheers, J"org Yes! Yes! This is exactly my problem with NFS in 2.2.1 - I don't believe amd has anything to do with it. Also, I've set the readdir size to 1024 (since I'm not doing amd, but a direct mount) and the problem remains. See my other mail on 2.2.1 NFS problems in the -hackers list. - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 13:30:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22593 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22528 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA16528; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:29:03 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:29:01 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Warner Losh cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 430TX ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Warner Losh wrote: > In message Narvi writes: > : 4MB SRAM simms (12 ns) are available now. But where shall you plug > : them into? I really doubt any present PC/PowerPC/Alpha chipset is capable > : of making use of SRAM. Though it would make wonders to applicatiions > : hindered by present memory throughput > > I have a R4700 based MIPS board that uses 4M SRAM SIMM-like things. Cool! I guess there are also DSP boards out there may also support simm sockets for expansion RAM. In the case of SRAM main memory we live in a world without L2-cache misses, right? OK, it won't, the penalty would just be smaller/nonexistant (the L2 chache get trashed in the beginning of first loop, the usefulness for the rest is real small and other such "pathological" cases). Well, enough ranting - I just hate it when it doesn't make any visible differnce whetever the file is already cached in memory or being read in from a scsi disk on the fly or which Ppro you used. Sander > > Warner > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 13:42:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23234 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23222; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:42:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704132042.NAA23222@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, giles@nemeton.com.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199704131157.NAA23250@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Apr 13, 97 01:56:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > 2. edit /etc/sysconfig to contain shell HERE documents. > > if a shell variable is set (CONFIGETC ?) then and only then > > are the HERE documents used to replace the contents of the > > files in /etc. the location _does_not_chnage_. > > > > to clone a box, all you would need to do is copy /etc/sysconfig > > to another computer and set CONFIGETC in /etc/sysconfig. > > i see two minor difficulties here, i) /etc/sysconfig might be run several > times at boot time since different files might need its variables, and > ii) a way is needed to make sysconfig reflect changes to the various > files. The first is only (hopefully) a problem of efficiency, the > second means that you cannot really clone a system using this method. people have been clamouring for a shutdown script. creating the HERE documents in /etc/sysconfig (when this option is enabled) could be one of the tasks of the shutdown script. jmb From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 13:50:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23537 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23522; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:50:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704132050.NAA23522@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <16569.860942772@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 13, 97 07:46:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > As Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > 2. edit /etc/sysconfig to contain shell HERE documents. > > > if a shell variable is set (CONFIGETC ?) then and only then > > > are the HERE documents used to replace the contents of the > > > files in /etc. the location _does_not_chnage_. > > > > But you remember that shell here documents use (hidden) tempfiles, > > thus require a writable /tmp? > > Heh heh, I just knew there was a fly in the ointment here somewhere! ;-) > mfs, mfs ,mfs jmb From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 13:51:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23617 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA23612 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA24270 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:50:59 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00494; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:29:18 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970413222917.RO35614@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:29:17 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FREEBSD-HACKERS-L) Subject: Re: Maximizing NFS server performance References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Brian Tao on Apr 13, 1997 15:24:21 -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Brian Tao wrote: > I recall an async option to > mount_nfs back in FreeBSD 2.1, but I can't find it documented > anyhwere. Is there anything else I can do to improve NFS performance? The old async option is now a sysctl. However, you should rather reverse the logic then, and issue the copy command on the NFS client. In this case, the normally sync writes of the NFS server are a non-issue. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 13:55:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA23776 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23769 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA27345; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:57:40 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33516382.38B7@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:51:53 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers References: <17408.860947844@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Seriously, if something is rotten then it probably needs throwing out, > not preserving. Things rot for a reason, after all, and without users > for a feature, what's the point? :-) > Somethings get better with years of being rotten (like wine). I am one of those users that like to run really old things, just to see how "the age of the wooden computers and the iron programmers" was like :-). Maybe that's why I still like lynx and gopher (and even OS2). Pedro. > Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 14:08:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24337 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24327 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA27361; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:11:01 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <335166AA.4C31@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:05:14 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dennis CC: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <3.0.32.19970413125924.006cbd70@etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dennis wrote: > > At 09:27 PM 4/12/97 -0700, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > >dennis wrote: > >> > >> What does selling Freebsd-only products have to do with anything? > >That the idea of a commercial registry :-), we are not going to register > >products for other platforms we can't emulate, are we ? > >> And who said anything about lowering costs. There are (at least) 2 > >> strategies for selling product...there's cheap wine and fine wine. If > >> you are looking for vendors to sell cheap wine for freebsd, then you > >> are correct. > >> > >It's a matter of simple economy, if the good wine has a very low price > >it *might* sell better than both the cheapest (MS-like) or the finest > >(SGI-like). > > Thats a rather poor example. Sure, you'd buy a Mercedes if it cost the same > as a Saturn, but realistically it costs more to build and maintain a Mercedes > and its worth it, if you can afford it. Your premise that selling *more* is > the You don't understand, we already ARE cheap, why lose that advantage when there are already other (preferred) cheap options? > I was referring to. If you just want to get drunk, then buy the cheap > stuff. Same Wrong, buy the expensive one until you don't distinguish which is the cheap and which is the fine one. That is called "style". Pedro. > Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 14:10:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24447 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24390 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA27365 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:12:43 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33516710.7D57@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:06:56 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: Commercial vendors registry] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------546B1C7879D5" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------546B1C7879D5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This got out of the list (I forgot to CC it), sorry --------------546B1C7879D5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from etinc.com by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26680; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:02:26 -0500 Received: from dbws.etinc.com (db@dbws.etinc.com [204.141.95.130]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA22483 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970413125924.006cbd70@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 12:59:26 -0400 To: Pedro Giffuni From: dennis Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:27 PM 4/12/97 -0700, Pedro Giffuni wrote: >dennis wrote: >> >> What does selling Freebsd-only products have to do with anything? >That the idea of a commercial registry :-), we are not going to register >products for other platforms we can't emulate, are we ? >> And who said anything about lowering costs. There are (at least) 2 >> strategies for selling product...there's cheap wine and fine wine. If >> you are looking for vendors to sell cheap wine for freebsd, then you >> are correct. >> >It's a matter of simple economy, if the good wine has a very low price >it *might* sell better than both the cheapest (MS-like) or the finest >(SGI-like). Thats a rather poor example. Sure, you'd buy a Mercedes if it cost the same as a Saturn, but realistically it costs more to build and maintain a Mercedes and its worth it, if you can afford it. Your premise that selling *more* is the goal is defective...selling fewer at a higher margin is the *other* strategy that I was referring to. If you just want to get drunk, then buy the cheap stuff. Same goes for networking products. Dennis --------------546B1C7879D5-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 14:21:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24941 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24931 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA24673 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:20:54 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA06229; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:56:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970413225633.GJ54491@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:56:33 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <16569.860942772@time.cdrom.com> <199704132050.NAA23522@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704132050.NAA23522@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Apr 13, 1997 13:50:17 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > But you remember that shell here documents use (hidden) tempfiles, > > > thus require a writable /tmp? > > > > Heh heh, I just knew there was a fly in the ointment here somewhere! ;-) > > > > mfs, mfs ,mfs That's not an universal solution you can count on inside /etc/rc. Using MFS or not using it is a policy decision. I've got machines where i wanna make sure that /tmp is preserved across reboots. Yes, i know that this is not the common policy, but establishing a script that would effectively prevent /tmp being a real disk filesystem would take away part of the freedom the local admin otherwise has. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 14:29:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA25410 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [199.184.181.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25399 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.pcs. [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08264; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:42:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id QAA21358; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:30:42 -0500 Message-ID: <19970413163041.62232@right.PCS> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:30:42 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <16569.860942772@time.cdrom.com> <199704132050.NAA23522@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199704132050.NAA23522@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Apr 04, 1997 at 01:50:17PM -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 04, 1997 at 01:50:17PM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Heh heh, I just knew there was a fly in the ointment here somewhere! ;-) > > > > mfs, mfs ,mfs ...appears to be broken in -current (as of last night). I have a 32M system, with ~71M of swap allocated. When a MFS /tmp was mounted, my swap usage instantly went to about 66M, and then incrementally grew until everything crashed due to lack of memory. (Actually, it panic'd in update, in lockstatus). Unmounting /tmp immediatly sent my swap usage crashing down to 0. I can file a PR or provide more details if needed. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 14:31:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA25568 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25561 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA27386 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:33:41 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33516BF9.675@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:27:53 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dennis wrote: > > What does selling Freebsd-only products have to do with anything? That the idea of a commercial registry :-), we are not going to register products for other platforms we can't emulate, are we ? > And who said anything about lowering costs. There are (at least) 2 > strategies for selling product...there's cheap wine and fine wine. If > you are looking for vendors to sell cheap wine for freebsd, then you > are correct. > It's a matter of simple economy, if the good wine has a very low price it *might* sell better than both the cheapest (MS-like) or the finest (SGI-like). > > > >Easy to say ....the hacker's list has always been available. > > Then perhaps there is a different reason that commercial vendors stay away > from FreeBSD? > Well of course, but the tide changes. When I was introduced to the UNIX under PC's I new something about SCO, and vaguely had heard about Linux. In those days SCO was the best option because of their large hardware compatibility list and their commercial support. (My Qvision graqhic card, for example, is not supported yet by XFree86 but has always been supported by SCO.) Linux was a useful toy OS. Today I find more software available for Linux than for SCO, I can freely consider SCO as about >80% shit (I did buy their "FreeUNIX" to take their sharedlibs and perhaps some apps though). Commercial vendors actually LIKE to have low costs unless they have enough users to cover that costs. And they don't like having 500 emails a day saying that an unrelated part of the OS screwed. We don't have the users Linux has (which is a mixed blessing IMO), so we have to try to balance this with a direct, but filtered, communication. The hackers list is not suitable for this. I mention Linux because: 1) It's definitely revolutionary (in non-technical terms). 2) In terms of the market an ignorant reader could consider FreeBSD as just another Linux distribution ("A FreeOS that runs all this Linux software..."). Technically superior options are rarely the big market, and we don't want our fine wine to turn into vinegar... Pedro. > db From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 14:34:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA25764 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA25730 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (localhost.lan.awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA23423; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:32:11 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199704132132.WAA23423@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Pedro Giffuni cc: dennis , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:05:14 PDT." <335166AA.4C31@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:32:11 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [.....] > > I was referring to. If you just want to get drunk, then buy the cheap > > stuff. Same > Wrong, buy the expensive one until you don't distinguish which is the > cheap and which is the fine one. That is called "style". Can't argue with that: "One bottle of your finest wine and 60 cans of lager please". > > Pedro. > > > Dennis -- Brian , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 15:04:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA26930 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-7.mail.demon.net (relay-7.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA26917 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from longacre.demon.co.uk ([158.152.156.24]) by relay-5.mail.demon.net id aa0518129; 13 Apr 97 23:00 BST From: Michael Searle Message-ID: To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Curses, NCurses library changes Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:58:48 BST X-Mailer: Offlite 0.09 / Termite Internet for Acorn RISC OS Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Have the curses and ncurses libraries changed since 2.1.0 enough that a program meant for a later version wouldn't work? (Core dumps when compiled shared, stack pointer is off the end of the exec. Won't link static, gives errors about the curses/ncurses library. It can be compiled with either curses or ncurses, but both fail in the same way.) It looks like the library is the problem, although I'd have thought that would give compile errors. -- Michael Searle - csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 16:28:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA29897 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29872; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id SAA12546; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:27:36 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704132327.SAA12546@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413143341.00693478@etinc.com> from dennis at "Apr 13, 97 02:33:45 pm" To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:27:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, dyson@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The problem with funding fundamentals like networking is that some banana with > a different philosophy is likely to either undo your changes or make other > changes > that compromise it. You'd have to maintain it yourself to make it worthwhile. > That is where the core team management comes in. A coherent core team allows for review and the backing out of bogus changes. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 16:28:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA29955 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-11.mail.demon.net (relay-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.137]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA29945 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from longacre.demon.co.uk ([158.152.156.24]) by relay-11.mail.demon.net id aa1118585; 13 Apr 97 23:33 BST From: Michael Searle Message-ID: To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Curses/NCurses library changes Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:32:18 BST X-Mailer: Offlite 0.09 / Termite Internet for Acorn RISC OS Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Oops, cancel that. I've found the problem, it just wasn't including libmytinfo. It works fine now, expect a port of mikmod soon. (plays *every* kind of mod - s3m,xm,mtm,669,...) -- Michael Searle - csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 16:32:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00269 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00263 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (localhost.lan.awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA27393; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:29:46 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199704132329.AAA27393@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Giles Lean cc: Brian Somers , Terry Lambert , brian@utell.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: syslogd watching other machine(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Apr 1997 08:20:18 +1000." <199704072220.IAA01474@topaz.nemeton.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:29:45 +0100 From: Brian Somers Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id QAA00265 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Mon, 07 Apr 1997 20:19:51 +0100 Brian Somers wrote: > > > > If a machine is the loghost for another machine, it should not be > > > permitted to delegate. > > > > Maybe not, but as it does, we can't "undo" that ability. What if > > someone is using this "feature" as an ability to proxy syslog messages ? > > Fix it anyway. If you are worried about breakage then make proxying a > command line option, and note that breaking loops is left to the > administrator. > > Giles Hmmm, things are a bit more difficult. If A logs something to B and B wants to log that something to A, we can recognise this fact, but what do we do with the message ? Maybe a better solution is similar to the ! stuff. We could have a "section" seperator of @ like this: *.err;kern.debug;auth.notice;mail.crit /dev/console *.notice;kern.debug;lpr.info;mail.crit;news.err /var/log/messages ..... !ftpd *.* /var/log/ftpd.log !dhcpdb *.* /var/log/dhcpdb.log @my.other.host *.err;kern.debug;auth.notice;mail.crit /dev/console *.notice;kern.debug;lpr.info;mail.crit;news.err /var/log/messages ..... Any comments ? -- Brian , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 17:29:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03459 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (widefw.csl.sony.co.jp [133.138.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03443 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 17:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp [43.27.98.57]) by widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.3/3.5Wbeta) with ESMTP id AAA04696; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:29:14 GMT Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.4/3.3W3) with ESMTP id JAA18899; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:28:56 +0859 (JST) Message-Id: <199704140029.JAA18899@hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp> To: hutton@ISI.EDU cc: yves@CC.McGill.CA, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATM adapters In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:05:55 PDT." <199704111806.AA21711@zephyr.isi.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:28:55 +0900 From: Kenjiro Cho Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> On Fri, 11 Apr 97 11:05:55 PDT, Anne Hutton said: >> Yves, >> there are FreeBSD ATM adapter drivers....specifically, for the Adaptec and >> Efficient cards. >> They are not, as yet, part of the FreeBSD supported distribution but they are >> available from >> ftp://dworkin.wustl.edu/dist/bsd/bsdatm1.4.tar.gz. >> Hope this helps, >> Anne Note that the driver currently doesn't support multicast. But if you need only one multicast vc per interface, a simple hack to the driver would work for you. Handling multiple multicast vc's per interface is a different story, though. --kj Kenjiro Cho Sony Computer Science Laboratory Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 18:00:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06165 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA06143 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA21424; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:29:09 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704140059.KAA21424@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Maximizing NFS server performance In-Reply-To: from Brian Tao at "Apr 13, 97 03:24:21 pm" To: taob@risc.org (Brian Tao) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:29:08 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brian Tao stands accused of saying: > > Using a loopback NFS mount in a P200 running 3.0-970124-SNAP, it > takes almost two minutes to copy my 23MB /usr/src/sys hierarchy (2277 > files). A dd from /dev/zero to a file on the same NFS filesystem can > only write about 550K of data per second. I was hoping to see 10 > times that level of performance. :( I recall an async option to > mount_nfs back in FreeBSD 2.1, but I can't find it documented > anyhwere. Is there anything else I can do to improve NFS performance? Turn on async NFS (vfs.nfs.async), make sure the source filesystem(s) are mounted noatime, and the destination filesystem is mounted async. That's about all I can think of... > Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 18:47:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07999 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07994 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA25553; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970413214534.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:45:36 -0400 To: Pedro Giffuni From: dennis Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 04:05 PM 4/13/97 -0700, Pedro Giffuni wrote: >> >It's a matter of simple economy, if the good wine has a very low price >> >it *might* sell better than both the cheapest (MS-like) or the finest >> >(SGI-like). >> >> Thats a rather poor example. Sure, you'd buy a Mercedes if it cost the same >> as a Saturn, but realistically it costs more to build and maintain a Mercedes >> and its worth it, if you can afford it. Your premise that selling *more* is >> the >You don't understand, we already ARE cheap, why lose that advantage when >there are already other (preferred) cheap options? > >> I was referring to. If you just want to get drunk, then buy the cheap >> stuff. Same >Wrong, buy the expensive one until you don't distinguish which is the >cheap and which is the fine one. That is called "style". > YOU dont understand marketing. You make something *expensive* by adding value. Companies that have cheap products (ie some of my competitors) do so because they can't or dont know how to add value. "dumping" products into the free market is a last resort, when you fail to compete in the value-added market. If this is what you are hoping for then you are resigned to mediocrity. The purpose of attracting commercial vendor SHOULD be to get quality products... not junk. FreeBSD is loaded with junk already. You should want supported products...not basic drivers supported by some guy in the urals who has a 50 hr a week commitment elsewhere and fixes stuff only when his wife and kids are at grandmas. *Dennis covers his head* db From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 18:50:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA08132 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08125; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA25584; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:56:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970413214851.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:48:53 -0400 To: "John S. Dyson" From: dennis Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, dyson@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 06:27 PM 4/13/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >> >> The problem with funding fundamentals like networking is that some banana with >> a different philosophy is likely to either undo your changes or make other >> changes >> that compromise it. You'd have to maintain it yourself to make it worthwhile. >> >That is where the core team management comes in. A coherent core team >allows for review and the backing out of bogus changes. *coherent* is one thing....having a focus is another (theres that word again!). Since there is no clear goal, the future is a fog, which makes Freebsd undesirable in the long run for major endeavors. db From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 19:18:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA09149 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA09137; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id VAA00359; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:17:42 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704140217.VAA00359@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413214851.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> from dennis at "Apr 13, 97 09:48:53 pm" To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:17:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > *coherent* is one thing....having a focus is another (theres that word > again!). Since > there is no clear goal, the future is a fog, which makes Freebsd > undesirable in > the long run for major endeavors. > Actually, that isn't what I have been seeing. There is a focused goal, and that is to be an excellent U**X clone, and more generally effective OS. That includes various facets of performance and capability. If you want FreeBSD to be a router, and FreeBSD doesn't do exactly what you want, then you can help direct the effort by supporting it; I am positive that there are other companies using FreeBSD as a router -- and it is what they need, very long term. Waiting passively isn't going to help your cause. I think that when you say "FreeBSD is undesirable in the long run for major endeavors", then your assertion appears to be globally true (which I know to be very false.) You have as much control as anyone else, in that you can help make it better for your needs. If I committed a half baked idea that no-one else in -core (or other committers) wanted, then either I would be asked to remove it, or someone else would do it for me. So the major difference is that I have to worry more about veto's (even though I try to recruit reviewers), and non-committers have to worry about passing reviews. The end results are often similar. In the same way that I work on things for FreeBSD that further my interests (both commercial (FreeBSD and otherwise) and personal), you should also. Actually, I see FreeBSD as a long term player being more effective than even in the short term. It is usually the short term concerned users who want something specifically for their business NOW, without assisting with a long term commitment themselves. It is those who show a long term commitment who gain significantly in credibility with us. Threats of non-commitment loose lots. It would be similar to me publically threatening "I don't want to work on FreeBSD anymore unless..." My credibility associated with having a long term interest would be suspect. That becomes self defeating. BTW, we do have a defined core team, with individual responsibilities and areas of interest. Please be specific about your complaints and then they can be addressed. However, if there are no resources to work the issues, then new resources need to be brought online. If you and I disagree, then time will tell... John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 20:02:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11050 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-11.mail.demon.net (relay-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.137]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA11045 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erlenstar.demon.co.uk ([194.222.144.22]) by relay-10.mail.demon.net id aa1012617; 14 Apr 97 3:53 BST Received: (from andrew@localhost) by erlenstar.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00310; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:48:49 +0100 (BST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ahc problems w/ xcdplayer? From: Andrew Gierth X-Mayan-Date: Long count = 12.19.4.1.8; tzolkin = 5 Lamat; haab = 6 Pop X-Attribution: AG Date: 14 Apr 1997 03:48:49 +0100 Message-ID: <87rageuxny.fsf@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> Lines: 31 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is this related to the problems with tapes etc. being discussed here a while back? The CD drive on this box is a Panasonic ("MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-506 8S05") attached to the A-channel of an AHA3940U as id 2. sd0 is id 0 on the same channel, sd1 is id 0 on the B channel. Running 2.2.1-RELEASE. Selecting "play" on xcdplayer for the *second* time locks the machine dead. Before it dies, though, it emits these messages: cd0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0x1 - timed out while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI == 0x0 SEQADDR == 0x6 cd0(ahc0:2:0): Queueing an Abort SCB cd0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0x1 - timed out while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI == 0x0 SEQADDR == 0x6 cd0(ahc0:2:0): no longer in timeout ahc0: Issued Channel A Bus Reset. 2 SCBs aborted Clearing bus reset Clearing 'in-reset' flag sd0(ahc0:0:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 sd0(ahc0:0:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred field replaceable unit: 1 Not all of these appear in the xconsole window (timing?), but the above was taken from /var/log/messages. When the machine dies, everything seems to have stopped (mouse doesn't move, no reaction at all to keyboard). Anything I can do to find out what this is? -- Andrew. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 20:14:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11464 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p17.tfs.net [206.154.183.209]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA11459 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA07958; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:32 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:31 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413214851.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 13, 97 09:48:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > At 06:27 PM 4/13/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > >> > >> The problem with funding fundamentals like networking is that some > banana with > >> a different philosophy is likely to either undo your changes or make other > >> changes > >> that compromise it. You'd have to maintain it yourself to make it > worthwhile. > >> > >That is where the core team management comes in. A coherent core team > >allows for review and the backing out of bogus changes. > > *coherent* is one thing....having a focus is another (theres that word > again!). Since > there is no clear goal, the future is a fog, which makes Freebsd > undesirable in > the long run for major endeavors. > > db [retreiveing two cents from pocket and tossing it into the hat] This is exactly the kind of bs discussion that has kept US from going out and getting commercial support for FreeBSD... Case in point... Lin[s]ux... Ten-Twenty different versions, bad networking, even worse VM... Vendors love it!! Why? Hmmmm... Maybe it's because people have gone out and and said to h*ll with all this bs counting the number of angels one can paint on the head of a pin [read that as philosophical bs discussions] and wrote books for Lin[s]ux, made it available at the local store on CD-ROM, plastered the magazines for it, invented magazines for it, and got the attention of the vendors enough that they develop for it... I have ran FreeBSD since 1.1.5.1, and still say it is the best available on PC's... Yes it is work in progress... The only program/operating system that is not work in progress is the one that just got degaussed... I sure as h*ll don't hear no fat lady singing the demise of FreeBSD... Who here has seen "The Life of Brian"? This topic sounds like a meeting of the People's Front of Judea [officials]! But you keep talking like this, you may as well be the the Crack Suicide Squad of the Judean People's Front!!! The point is, get up off your @sses and get commercial support, stop talking about it! Do you think Bill Gates got where he is today by debating for three years on whether or not to take action? Or for that matter, the same for the lamers using Lin[s]ux!!!! [dismounting soapbox] *note: If you have no idea what I'm talking about when I mention the People's Front of Judea, or the Judean People's Front, then get up off your butt and rent "The Life of Brian"!!! Jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 20:27:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11867 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA11862 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01497; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704140324.UAA01497@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Narvi cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 430TX ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:45:23 +0300." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:24:42 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Fantastic! Anyone on board with any of these motherboards ? Would love to get some stats out of one of those systems! Tnks, Amancio >From The Desk Of Narvi : > > On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Hmmm... > > > > Does DEC have a motherboard for PC with 64bit slots? > > No :-( But they do make SMP Pentium Pro servers (upto 4 CPU) with a > 256 bit (4-way interleaved) memory bus and dual peered PCI buses > (? - does it mean there are two PCI busses?). They can take either 166/200 > PPros with 512K caches and also have Mylex RAID on boad. > > See the ZX 6000 servers :-) > > The ZX5000 Pentium boards can take upto 4 Pentiums + 1Mb cache per > processor and have 128 bit 2-way interleaved memory. > > And no - I don't have such a box. And this isn't an ad. Compaq, IBM and HP > have similar boards. > > Sander > > > > > Cheers, > > Amancio > > > > >From The Desk Of Narvi : > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I snipped the CC: list quite a bit... - hope no one get offended > [snip] > > > > > > Well, there are at least for PowerPC - the Motorola Atlas(?)/ MTX > > > motherboard has one 64bit slot and 2 32-bit slots. I guess all that is > > > needed for a PC chipset having 64 bit PCI is a CPU-host controller, > > > interfacing anything else (including ISA?) to it using Digitals 64/64 and > > > 64/32 PCI bridges. > > > > > > Sander > From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 20:29:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12022 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p17.tfs.net [206.154.183.209]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA12011 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA08039; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:29:26 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704140329.WAA08039@argus> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:29:25 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413214851.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 13, 97 09:48:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > At 06:27 PM 4/13/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > >> > >> The problem with funding fundamentals like networking is that some > banana with > >> a different philosophy is likely to either undo your changes or make other > >> changes > >> that compromise it. You'd have to maintain it yourself to make it > worthwhile. > >> > >That is where the core team management comes in. A coherent core team > >allows for review and the backing out of bogus changes. > > *coherent* is one thing....having a focus is another (theres that word > again!). Since > there is no clear goal, the future is a fog, which makes Freebsd > undesirable in > the long run for major endeavors. Sorry John, just realized you said much of the same I did in my last message... Jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 20:43:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12497 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caipfs.rutgers.edu (root@caipfs.rutgers.edu [128.6.91.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12492 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jenolan.caipgeneral (jenolan.rutgers.edu [128.6.111.5]) by caipfs.rutgers.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA24377; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jenolan.caipgeneral (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA06041; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:41:39 -0400 Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:41:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199704140341.XAA06041@jenolan.caipgeneral> From: "David S. Miller" To: jbryant@tfs.net CC: dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> (message from Jim Bryant on Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:31 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Jim Bryant Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:31 -0500 (CDT) Case in point... Lin[s]ux... [ ... ] bad networking, even worse VM... Care to back these claims up with factual information? I've studied both FreeBSD's and Linux's vm/net subsystems at great length, and I would love to know what I might have overlooked during my studies. ---------------------------------------------//// Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & //// 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s //// ethernet. Beat that! //// -----------------------------------------////__________ o David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 21:02:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA13222 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p17.tfs.net [206.154.183.209]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA13217 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA08120; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:02:03 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704140402.XAA08120@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (Pedro Giffuni) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:02:02 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <33516382.38B7@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> from "Pedro Giffuni" at Apr 13, 97 03:51:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Seriously, if something is rotten then it probably needs throwing out, > > not preserving. Things rot for a reason, after all, and without users > > for a feature, what's the point? :-) > > > Somethings get better with years of being rotten (like wine). I am one > of those users that like to run really old things, just to see how "the > age of the wooden computers and the iron programmers" was like :-). > Maybe that's why I still like lynx and gopher (and even OS2). > > Pedro. well, x.25 is not my favorite thing in the world, but i have ulterior motives... to get freebsd out amongst some forward thinking hams... also, of course, to have a kernel level AX.25 interface to my own equipment, it would greatly simplify doing TCP/IP encapsulation... the potential worldwide market for this is incredible... in case you don't know, there are places on this planet that will be lucky to get the internet anytime in the next 20-50 years, but packet radio is aleady there... as a matter of fact, it'll be 20-50 years before the US gets rewired and re-equipped enough to even come close to universal internet coverage... i still know people on mechanical crosspoint switched party lines... not only that, how about the FreeBSD publicity if someone runs packet from a laptop FreeBSD box right after an earthquake, flood, tornado [you get the picture] to assist in disaster communications when there is no phone service, and the local cell pop [avg pop has 20-100 lines] is thrashed by suzie calling mommy or her best friend to say "Oh wow" for the next three hours... such a kernel driver is highly desirable... if there wasn't a market for it, i wouldn't be wasting my time, your time, or the -core's time... gotta run... R0MIR [Mir] passes overhead on a fairly close orbital path in under 10 mins... i'm going to try to get my beacon relayed: KC5VDJ>BEACON,R0MIR*: :FreeBSD r0X Da W3rLd!@# jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 21:06:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA13377 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA13372 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA23255; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:34:53 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704140404.NAA23255@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Linux Libraries In-Reply-To: <19970411144127.2396.qmail@squirrel.tgsoft.com> from mark thompson at "Apr 11, 97 02:41:27 pm" To: thompson@squirrel.tgsoft.com (mark thompson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:34:53 +0930 (CST) Cc: erich@lodgenet.com, hackers@freefall.freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mark thompson stands accused of saying: > > Hey, speaking of linux... after upgrading to 2.2 and installing > linux_lib-2.3, my linux apps no longer seem to be able to read their > current directory (on startup, they make unhappy noises, and decide that > their current directory is root). Affects Wingz and Netscape at least. > > I can live with it, but does anybody have ideas? I haven't actually seen this one; anyone else able to reproduce it? > -mark -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 21:35:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14255 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14245 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id XAA00296; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:34:54 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704140434.XAA00296@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <199704140341.XAA06041@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at "Apr 13, 97 11:41:39 pm" To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:34:54 -0500 (EST) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Care to back these claims up with factual information? I've studied > both FreeBSD's and Linux's vm/net subsystems at great length, and I > would love to know what I might have overlooked during my studies. > Feel free to compare the two actually running under load. Unfortunately, I have found only 1 paper on paging policies, for example, that comes close to describing the FreeBSD algorithms (out of 20-30 papers that I have found.) I suggest that there is enough freely available and unencumbered information out there to develop your own superior paging policy. The key here is to understand the underlying reasons for anecdotal evidence. The reasons can be bogus or not. More often than not, I have found that when people have made such claims, there is a valid reason. It is very unlikely that they would consiously choose an inferior system for their applications for a "not-so-worthy" cause. A valid reason for the choice of a system isn't necessarily technical merit, but could be availability (marketing.) If a slower or less effective OS under load is used for an X terminal or casual development -- then the OS doesn't have much of an impact on the user. That is also the case where scalability is not really very important at all. (I am not saying that any particular system is inferior, but I am saying that users appear to be more picky than OS developers as to loaded performance.) It is my observation, that either OS developers in general, appear to me to be too concerned about specific benchmarks, or they believe that the user base can be easily fooled by such. Note that in particular, the FreeBSD code is unconventional (vastly different than the two-bit scheme that SVR3 used for example.) There is a reason for that, and luckily, we started from a clean slate -- knowing the brokenness of clock and related algorithms. The FreeBSD code can be degraded to work similarly to the two-bit (or more general shifting-bit aging schemes), and there is a performance decrease under load. The typical paging algorithms are sometimes silly, and perhaps part of the legacy of machines CPU being slower than their I/O subsystems. (Remember how some of the PDP-11 swapped segments out in order to grow them? :-)). There has been alot of pressure lately to produce a paper on FreeBSD's algorithm because anecdotal evidence does show that it works very well, and it demands a more rigorous analysis. Philosophy: Unnecessary I/O and head contention is MUCH MUCH more expensive than a smarter, more scalable algorithm (if implemented correctly.) Just my two cents, and hope that this has given you a place to start on improving your OS. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 21:38:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14352 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14347 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem17.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.47]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA27695; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:40:16 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3351CFF1.18E6@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:34:32 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dennis CC: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <3.0.32.19970413214534.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dennis wrote: < > >Wrong, buy the expensive one until you don't distinguish which is the > >cheap and which is the fine one. That is called "style". > > > > YOU dont understand marketing. You make something *expensive* by > adding value. Companies that have cheap products (ie some of my I'm gonna tell you how I bought lately (without my money:-)). A govermental institution needed a Web site. I was asked what should be bought with 30K bucks (they wanted a SUN), I knew what they needed could be covered by a PC running FreeBSD, but my suggestions was a SGI. Considering I'll not administrate that box permanently, there was the risk that someone would replace the BSD box with Windows NT. This way everyone is happy with "the bottle of fine wine", and when I need the real job done I can uninstall a W95 box and install a FreeBSD box there. If it were MY money I would probably install many FreeBSD boxes and one sole Linux box. Forget it FreeBSD is not full of junk. It's an excellent networking solution (faster than an AIX4.1 we bought) and it runs most Linux and SCO apps faster than the native environments. I don't know what your requirements or standards are, but for me FreeBSD RULES! --Pedro. > competitors) do so because they can't or dont know how to add > value. "dumping" products into the free market is a last resort, when > you fail to compete in the value-added market. If this is what you are > hoping for then you are resigned to mediocrity. The purpose of > attracting commercial vendor SHOULD be to get quality products... > not junk. FreeBSD is loaded with junk already. You should want > supported products...not basic drivers supported by some guy in > the urals who has a 50 hr a week commitment elsewhere and fixes > stuff only when his wife and kids are at grandmas. > > *Dennis covers his head* > > db From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 22:01:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA15076 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15067 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA06804; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:03:27 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:03:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits Reply-To: Alex Belits To: jbryant@tfs.net cc: dennis , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Jim Bryant wrote: > This is exactly the kind of bs discussion that has kept US from going > out and getting commercial support for FreeBSD... > > Case in point... Lin[s]ux... Ten-Twenty different versions, bad > networking, even worse VM... Vendors love it!! Why? Hmmmm... There are two version of Linux kernel and two of libc (one of them is threads-safe but still considered as beta -- does ring any bells?). If you count them like you count FreeBSD versions (ever-changing 2.2.x-RELEASE as one version), it will be the same as what FreeBSD has now. And sure, Linux had bad networking in 1.2.x. Vendors mostly like that at least _some_ support for them is offered (by distributions vendors such as Red Hat -- there is one "distributor" for FreeBSD -- Walnut Creek, but it doesn't really organize or supports anything of that kind). One can hate rms/gnu/fsf but the idea of OS that can be built other way than "make world" and not fall apart instantly, distribution that supports upgrades that could be done by user with minimal knowledge about OS internals and less than T1 to backbone to download upgrades happened to be more attractive for commercial vendors than FreeBSD with its closed-group attitude. Example from "noncommercial" world: the idea of "ports" that don't have to be supported by actual author/maintainer of a program but can include "FreeBSD-specific" patch (most likely to some ancient version) and doomed to instantly become outdated without original author's support vs. Linux users tradition of using author's sources that are definitely supported directly or Red Hat's rpm system that has its flaws but makes it way harder for knowledgeable user to shoot himself in the foot. Both Linux and FreeBSD change fast, although FreeBSD comes in one monolithic distribution, and any attempt to get something fixed throws user into -CURRENT (no pun intended but it seems appropriate) with all its instability and experiments around. If vendors that now support Linux had to switch to 2.1.x kernel just to keep with library changes I believe, they had used OpenNT by now. > Maybe it's because people have gone out and and said to h*ll with all > this bs counting the number of angels one can paint on the head of a > pin [read that as philosophical bs discussions] and wrote books for > Lin[s]ux, made it available at the local store on CD-ROM, plastered > the magazines for it, invented magazines for it, and got the attention > of the vendors enough that they develop for it... Linux is more available for users, and a lot of its users have no clue, how to use it. But the same can be said about Solaris or any other more or less popular system (I'm not mentioning MS products because they have nothing but propaganda behind -- they are bound to be the realm of lamers and marketdroids). Is it good or bad? Obvious answer -- both, but it helps to get it noticed by commercial vendors and definitely is better than attitude "If you can't read and patch manually kernel sources, switch to Windows 95". > I have ran FreeBSD since 1.1.5.1, and still say it is the best > available on PC's... Yes it is work in progress... The only > program/operating system that is not work in progress is the one that > just got degaussed... FreeBSD developers had valid reason to see their OS superior to Linux when FreeBSD had BSD 4.4 development behind and Linux had early Linus' kernel and patched-so-it-won't-break-instantly glibc 1.x. The situation changed quite a bit since then, and dismissing Linux as "lamers' OS" just because it's popular among larger number of people than number of ones that could understand it, is ridiculous. It's possible to argue that FreeBSD is "more unixy" or "more consistent", but then look at what Sun does or what OSF-X/Open-OpenGroup considers "unixy" and "consistent", and you'll see that there are worse things than Linux. > I sure as h*ll don't hear no fat lady singing the demise of FreeBSD... FreeBSD technically is a nice OS. Organization of its development and distribution looks umm... unhealthy. > Who here has seen "The Life of Brian"? This topic sounds like a > meeting of the People's Front of Judea [officials]! But you keep > talking like this, you may as well be the the Crack Suicide Squad of > the Judean People's Front!!! The point is, get up off your @sses and > get commercial support, stop talking about it! > > Do you think Bill Gates got where he is today by debating for three > years on whether or not to take action? Bill Gates did nothing but "taking actions". Actually he even didn't write software. His "actions" don't look like ones of honest/decent/good person though and definitely aren't appropriate for free OS support. > Or for that matter, the same > for the lamers using Lin[s]ux!!!! Linux developers (and developers that just supported Linux well) didn't do anything at the "big corporations" scale. They just didn't use the approach "we will make The Distribution, we will port everything around to make sure, it will fit The Distribution, and if we change something, you should take new Distribution and our port, or it will break". Sure, Whistle can afford to deal with that -- they can afford supporting kernel themselves. I can't imagine Star or Applix doing the same thing though. > [dismounting soapbox] > > *note: If you have no idea what I'm talking about when I mention the > People's Front of Judea, or the Judean People's Front, then get up off > your butt and rent "The Life of Brian"!!! Thanks, I have better things to do now... like, writing software, portable between both mentioned platforms and other unices. -- Alex P.S. If anyone cares -- I use both Linux and FreeBSD, do applications development and spend approximately equal amount of time on both, so I'm quite aware of flaws, bugs and concept differences in both systems. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 22:04:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA15230 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.aceonline.com.au (obiwan.aceonline.com.au [203.103.90.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15225 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.aceonline.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA00619; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:51:37 +0800 (WST) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:51:37 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Pedro Giffuni cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-Reply-To: <33516382.38B7@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Seriously, if something is rotten then it probably needs throwing out, > > not preserving. Things rot for a reason, after all, and without users > > for a feature, what's the point? :-) > > > Somethings get better with years of being rotten (like wine). I am one > of those users that like to run really old things, just to see how "the > age of the wooden computers and the iron programmers" was like :-). > Maybe that's why I still like lynx and gopher (and even OS2). > I wonder whats been holding me back from digging around, finding a copy of FreeBSD 1.1 and installing that. *grin* Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 22:42:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16803 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (widefw.csl.sony.co.jp [133.138.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16798 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp [43.27.98.57]) by widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.3/3.5Wbeta) with ESMTP id FAA12560; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:42:17 GMT Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.4/3.3W3) with ESMTP id OAA28378; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:41:59 +0859 (JST) Message-Id: <199704140542.OAA28378@hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp> To: Robert Withrow cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bogus bpf af from tun driver? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:13:21 -0400." <199704120213.WAA11662@spooky.rwwa.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:41:59 +0900 From: Kenjiro Cho Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 22:13:21 -0400, Robert Withrow said: >> The tun driver prepends what it calls the address family to the packet it >> passes to bpf. I get it as 0x02.00.00.00 which looks like AF_INET in some >> weird byte-swapped state... >> This is wrong, right? >> Should it HTONL or something? This problem seems common to all drivers using DLT_NULL type (e.g. lo, tun) in all BSD Unix systems. Historically, a DLT_NULL header is added in host-byte-order in drivers but bpf filter assumes all data is in network-byte-order. The problem doesn't appear unless you use bpf filters so that tcpdump without specifying filters works just fine. I'm not sure if fixing all the existing DLT_NULL drivers is a way to go or not... --kj Kenjiro Cho Sony Computer Science Laboratory Inc. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 22:48:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA17106 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailserv.tversu.ac.ru (root@mailserv.tversu.ac.ru [193.233.128.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA17081; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from vadim@localhost) by mailserv.tversu.ac.ru (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA14766; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:48:10 +0400 Message-ID: <19970414094810.03662@tversu.ac.ru> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:48:10 +0400 From: Vadim Kolontsov To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftpd bug (yes, again..) References: <19970413113446.26166@tversu.ac.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.64 In-Reply-To: ; from Warner Losh on Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 12:09:21PM -0600 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Apr 13, 1997 at 12:09:21PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > : Now look for core dump, extract password, start your Crack :) > > Fail to find core dump, become bummed :-( I didn't noticed it - I check ftpd's sources on 2.1 :) But anyway, I think that bug must be fixed. Am I wrong? Best regards, Vadim. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Vadim Kolontsov SysAdm/Programmer Tver Regional Center of New Information Technologies Networks Lab From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 22:54:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA17383 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendero.i-connect.net ([206.190.143.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA17368 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6821 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Apr 1997 05:43:11 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Organization: iConnect Corp. From: Simon Shapiro To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-scsi@freebsd.org Subject: SCSI Problems Since 2.2-BETA_A of 13-Feb-1997 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I apologize if i am repeating known truth, jumping in the middle of a conversation or missing the solution (I was very busy last few weeks), but this is serious. We are having a severe problem with SCSI devices (wide) connected to AHA-2940W or 2940UW (PCI). The problem manifests itself as (more or less): sd10(ahc1:13:0): timed out in dataout phase SCSISIGI = 0x0 SEQADDR = {0x6,0xf,0xa....} ahc1: Issued channel A Bus reset spec_getpage I/O read error vm_fault: pager input ... With kernels up to and including that mentioned in the Subject: line, we get this error once and it clears and continues for a time. Anything we have that is later goes into an endless loop of these, from which only PWER CYCLE will save. Now, the problem is probably real. getting the SCSI ERROR is not what I am asking for help with. The endless loop is. The system has two controllers a 2940W and a 2940UW. I cannot see any difference in behavior (but could be wrong. To these controllers are hooked up: ahc0 (the 2940W): Iomega Jaz, Ymaha CDR-100 Sony SDT-7000/BM (DAT) and 8 Seagate 2713 (2GB Baracuda. The Baracudas are on an external box, with a good cable and terminated via the internal termination on the last drive. ahc1 (the 2940Uw): 8 Quantum 4GB drives in a ``raid'' box. Each group is arranged as a CCD RAID-0 array, 4 drives per HBA. The arrangement is suboptimal in that drives are accessed sequentially on the same bus. It is also suboptimal as noise must be on the bus. Close examination of the bus reveals that when an error occures, a drive stays selected and the bus stays locked up. It stays locked up during power cycle on the drives (as soon as the drive is spinning again, it is selected again). It survives reboots and motherboard resets. It only will release if the motherboard is powered off and on again. This hard-core stuckiness is only evident with newer revisions of the aic7xxx driver. Up to the 2.2-BETA_A, the errors happen, rarely, but the driver resets the bus and recovers nicely. I am not sure if this is a ccd problem (timing, etc.; I do not think so), or a scsi layer problem (again, I do not think so), or an aic7xxx problem. I also relize that this is more hardware than most of us use, but represents about 1/3 of what we want done (48 drives per system as a base configuration). Any help I can get/give will be appreciated! Thanx, Simon ng known truth, jumping in the middle of a conversation or missing the solution (I was very busy last few weeks), but this is serious. We are having a severe problem with SCSI devices (wide) connected to AHA-2940W or 2940UW (P From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 23:00:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA17868 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA17861 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wGeoX-0006fT-00; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:00:29 -0600 To: jbryant@tfs.net Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers Cc: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org (The Devil Himself), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:27:39 CDT." <199704131927.OAA06896@argus> References: <199704131927.OAA06896@argus> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:00:29 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199704131927.OAA06896@argus> Jim Bryant writes: : > It could be just me, and it's been QUITE a while since I've seen any of : > them, but wasn't he #6? It was most certainly #6. : > > jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable : > 73, N3TZJ 2-meter FM : : I think that so very few people understood the opening sequence of : "The Prisoner", even he himself I don't think got it until they : explained it in the final episode... Ummm, the final episode is far from definitive on the subject, having seen it multiple times. While they call him number 1, they seem also to be taking their orders from elsewhere as well. Warner P.S. Yes, that village :-). How could it be any other with machine names like rover.village.org, harmony, green-dome, beach, local-service, fountain, statue-garden... From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 23:38:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA19774 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pdx1.world.net (pdx1.world.net [192.243.32.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA19769 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:38:06 -0700 (PDT) From: proff@suburbia.net Received: from suburbia.net (suburbia.net [198.142.2.24]) by pdx1.world.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA17003 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4610 invoked by uid 110); 14 Apr 1997 05:20:16 -0000 Message-ID: <19970414052016.4609.qmail@suburbia.net> Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... In-Reply-To: <19970413225633.GJ54491@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 13, 97 10:56:33 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:20:15 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > But you remember that shell here documents use (hidden) tempfiles, > > > > thus require a writable /tmp? > > > > > > Heh heh, I just knew there was a fly in the ointment here somewhere! ;-) > > > > > > > mfs, mfs ,mfs > > That's not an universal solution you can count on inside /etc/rc. > Using MFS or not using it is a policy decision. I've got machines > where i wanna make sure that /tmp is preserved across reboots. Yes, i > know that this is not the common policy, but establishing a script > that would effectively prevent /tmp being a real disk filesystem would > take away part of the freedom the local admin otherwise has. > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) mount -t mfs /dev/swap /rc_tmp rc stuff umount /rc_tmp Cheers, Julian. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 23:45:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA20572 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from osprey.grizzly.com (med.sc.scruznet.com [165.227.115.28]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20565 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from markd@localhost) by osprey.grizzly.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA17288; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704140646.XAA17288@osprey.grizzly.com> From: Mark Diekhans To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: User time stopped. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My 2.2.1 system has quit accumulating user time. I had encountered this previously and filed a bug report, but no one could reproduce it. My system is currently in this state, can anyone suggest any information to gather for a bug report before I reboot the thing? I am not very up on the x86 CPU architecture, so I can't really do much to debug it . Mark time tcl -c 'loop i 0 10000 continue' 0.000u 0.250s 0:00.24 104.1% 0+0k 0+0io 0pf+0w From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 23:53:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA20994 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20985 for ; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id BAA00534; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:53:03 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704140653.BAA00534@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: from Alex Belits at "Apr 13, 97 10:03:26 pm" To: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:53:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Vendors mostly like that at least _some_ > support for them is offered (by distributions vendors such as Red Hat -- > there is one "distributor" for FreeBSD -- Walnut Creek, but it doesn't > really organize or supports anything of that kind). > I am not involved with WC, but I heard that they do have support. > > One can hate > rms/gnu/fsf but the idea of OS that can be built other way than "make > world" > Don't hate them, I just don't agree with their philosophy and economics. > > and not fall apart instantly, distribution that supports upgrades > that could be done by user with minimal knowledge about OS internals > You mean the kernel of the week syndrome? > > attractive for commercial vendors than FreeBSD with its closed-group > attitude. > Please contribute -- we aren't closed. There is the issue of having quality control or not. We choose the former. > > Example from "noncommercial" world: the idea of "ports" that > don't have to be supported by actual author/maintainer of a program but > can include "FreeBSD-specific" patch (most likely to some ancient version) > and doomed to instantly become outdated without original author's support > vs. Linux users tradition of using author's sources that are definitely > supported directly or Red Hat's rpm system that has its flaws but makes it > way harder for knowledgeable user to shoot himself in the foot. > Actually, I find alot of #ifdef FreeBSD and configure's that work directly with FreeBSD. Much software works directly out of the box directly from the vendor/developer. You have the option of using the ports collection so that you have fewer problems or want to install directly out-of-the-box. Note also that the CDROM contains the apps that can be freely redistributed (unlike certain Zmodem or Kermit distributions.) > > Both Linux and FreeBSD change fast, although FreeBSD comes in one > monolithic distribution, and any attempt to get something fixed throws > user into -CURRENT (no pun intended but it seems appropriate) with all its > instability and experiments around. > Not true, 2.2.X is a new released codebase. It isn't -current. Things get fixed in the 2.2.X base. I wouldn't be suprised if 2.1.X is also still being supported for existing apps, on an as needed basis. BTW, -current isn't always stable -- and end users should use it only for experimentation, or they should support it entirely themselves. Luckily, you can always check out a system source tree for any point in history (or release) with the CVS tree (which is publically available -- and you can have your own, local copy.) That enables people to support themselves when running -current more easily (when absolutely needed.) BTW, I have absolutely no trouble maintaining a CVS tree on my machine at home with a 28.8K modem. There are various distribution mechanisms for the FreeBSD CVS tree, and you can choose the one that works best for you. > > If vendors that now support Linux had > to switch to 2.1.x kernel just to keep with library changes I believe, > they had used OpenNT by now. > What about the users who have problems with the shared-libs of the week problem? Which version of Netscape/Staroffice, etc. with which shared-libs? The only time that I have problems mixing/matching shared libs is when running Linux apps on FreeBSD or Linux apps on Linux. > > FreeBSD technically is a nice OS. Organization of its development and > distribution looks umm... unhealthy. > You mean a central group of people who are trying to maintain quality and branding (FreeBSD)? Or a bunch of distributions with a bunch of different combinations of shared libs and apps (and kernel versions, Linux)? I prefer a coherent development path/group. It is pretty good that we have 70+- committers that can modify the tree directly, and don't have chaos. In fact, we are pretty well organized. > > P.S. If anyone cares -- I use both Linux and FreeBSD, do applications > development and spend approximately equal amount of time on both, so I'm > quite aware of flaws, bugs and concept differences in both systems. > That is interesting, because I have played with both and NT substantially, (even though I am a FreeBSD developer), and your impressions are not the same as mine. However, I do know what is going on in FreeBSD in detail. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 13 23:55:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA21116 for hackers-outgoing; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oblivion.esgroup.net (root@oblivion.esgroup.net [204.174.98.210]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA21111; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oblivion.esgroup.net (tbaur@oblivion.esgroup.net [204.174.98.210]) by oblivion.esgroup.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA18538; Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:55:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Baur To: Vadim Kolontsov cc: Warner Losh , freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftpd bug (yes, again..) In-Reply-To: <19970414094810.03662@tversu.ac.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Vadim Kolontsov wrote: > I didn't noticed it - I check ftpd's sources on 2.1 :) > But anyway, I think that bug must be fixed. Am I wrong? Its fixed. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 00:24:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA22747 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22739 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA01218 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:24:39 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00815; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:12:16 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970414091216.YL45051@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:12:16 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <3.0.32.19970413214534.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413214534.00b3b9e0@etinc.com>; from dennis on Apr 13, 1997 21:45:36 -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As dennis wrote: (I didn't really wanna participate here, and this will probably be my only mail in this thread.) > FreeBSD is loaded with junk already. You should want > supported products...not basic drivers supported by some guy in > the urals who has a 50 hr a week commitment elsewhere and fixes > stuff only when his wife and kids are at grandmas. The junk is not at crucial parts of the system. Things like ft(4) or aic(4) (yeah, my most favourite examples) simply haven't been removed since users are still using them. But, etinc.com doesn't have to rely on a crappy floppy tape driver. The heavy parts of the system _are_ maintained, and we make it fairly clear for new code submissions that we don't wanna have them unless someone also steps forward and promises to maintain them. Sure, this also gives us fire from the other side as opposed to where dennis stands (they sometimes call us ignorant since we are rejecting `valuable' code for nothing else than there's no maintainer, and a certain person on these lists wanted to explain us that there's no reason one needs a maintainer at all, except for what he told us were gratuitous kernel API changes...), but we can resist this. This still leaves the problem that some maintainer might run out of time and/or interest later (ft(4) basically suffered from this), but that's the risk one is accepting for a freeware system. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 00:30:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA23140 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA23097; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA20013; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:29:45 -0700 (PDT) To: dennis cc: "John S. Dyson" , dyson@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 21:48:53 EDT." <3.0.32.19970413214851.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:29:45 -0700 Message-ID: <20009.861002985@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > *coherent* is one thing....having a focus is another (theres that word > again!). Since > there is no clear goal, the future is a fog, which makes Freebsd > undesirable in > the long run for major endeavors. If it were any different for the "commercial OS vendors" (and no "mission statement" from SCO has ever helped me divine their purpose or realistically schedule my plans around them) then I'd say you were describing a situation unique to FreeBSD. However, they don't and it's not, so you're basically describing life in all of its unpredictable splendor. Take a valium and chill out - I don't understand what your motivation here is, except perhaps to enjoy knocking heads together for your personal enjoyment. Find another hobby. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 00:41:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA23841 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from synapse.elec.uq.edu.au (wood@synapse.elec.uq.edu.au [130.102.96.82]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA23833 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wood@localhost) by synapse.elec.uq.edu.au (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA13522 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:41:43 GMT From: Ian Wood Message-Id: <199704140741.HAA13522@synapse.elec.uq.edu.au> Subject: 2.2.1 freezing on dumps - 2940 problem ? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:41:43 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm not clear as to whether this message has shown up here before or not, but I have received no answer, so here it is again: (first posted to questions, bounced here by Doug White?) My 2.2.1-RELEASE system freezes fairly regularly, most notably when performing a level 0 dump. We have 5 slices to back up and somewhere in dumping the third slice (the first big one) it freezes - quite reliably :) Sometimes we have to reboot it (reset switch), sometimes it reboots itself immediately. It has also crashed once on a lot of disk copying, and some other times. System specification: Pentium 120 Triton P5I437P4/FMB chipset Adaptec 2940W SCSI controller SONY SDT-5000 SCSI DAT tape 2* SEAGATE ST15230W SCSI hard disks Cirrus Logic 5430 PCI graphics card . Going to 2.2.1 from GAMMA fixed a SCSI bus resetting -> crash problem but this freezing thing persists. I have tried GENERIC & custom kernels - both crash similarly. (note: I have been running the system for about 1 1/2 yrs with just a 2.1 system until 2.2-GAMMA. That never crashed. The system only began crashing/freezing after my "upgrade"). The current system was created by running a "make world" on the cvsup'd 2.2.1 source, along with a custom kernel recompilation. I don't have anything to show for it in the logs - (/var/log/messages). Stuff like: /kernel: sd1(ahc0:3:0): timed out while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI == 0x0 no longer occurs since I upgraded to 2.2.1 . I haven't tried kernel debugging or SCSIDEBUG stuff yet partly because I know almost nothing about it, partly because people want this machine up most of the time. I think it's another adaptec 2940 driver problem, and am thinking of trying the newest 2.2-RELENG source, but I don't know whether that's really the problem, or if it is, whether it's recently been fixed. Also - what is the current state of the 2940 driver ? Are the authors still fixing things or checking it or are they confident it is now ok. If so - by which release/RELENG/SNAP ? If not, how is it going ? any advice appreciated, thanks, Ian Wood. wood@elec.uq.edu.au From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 00:52:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA24568 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA24560 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA00950 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704140752.AAA00950@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: file i/o from device driver? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 00:52:23 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, We have a couple of video capture drivers and was wondering what would it take to pass a file handle to a driver so it can write the captured frames to a file? Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 01:25:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA25819 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA25812 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id SAA01659; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:21:44 +1000 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:21:44 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704140821.SAA01659@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: hackers@freebsd.org, markd@Grizzly.COM Subject: Re: User time stopped. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >My 2.2.1 system has quit accumulating user time. I had encountered this This is probably fixed in -current. Try this change: Index: clock.c =================================================================== RCS file: /a/ncvs/src/sys/i386/isa/clock.c,v retrieving revision 1.72.2.3 retrieving revision 1.80 diff -c -2 -r1.72.2.3 -r1.80 *** clock.c 1997/03/05 08:19:02 1.72.2.3 --- clock.c 1997/04/06 13:25:48 1.80 *************** *** 312,324 **** * The RTC chip requires that we read status register C (RTC_INTR) * to acknowledge an interrupt, before it will generate the next one. */ static void rtcintr(struct clockframe frame) { ! u_char stat; ! stat = rtcin(RTC_INTR); ! if(stat & RTCIR_PERIOD) { statclock(&frame); - } } --- 312,329 ---- * The RTC chip requires that we read status register C (RTC_INTR) * to acknowledge an interrupt, before it will generate the next one. + * Under high interrupt load, rtcintr() can be indefinitely delayed and + * the clock can tick immediately after the read from RTC_INTR. In this + * case, the mc146818A interrupt signal will not drop for long enough + * to register with the 8259 PIC. If an interrupt is missed, the stat + * clock will halt, considerably degrading system performance. This is + * why we use 'while' rather than a more straightforward 'if' below. + * Stat clock ticks can still be lost, causing minor loss of accuracy + * in the statistics, but the stat clock will no longer stop. */ static void rtcintr(struct clockframe frame) { ! while (rtcin(RTC_INTR) & RTCIR_PERIOD) statclock(&frame); } Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 01:33:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26079 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26074 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA07889; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:34:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:34:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits Reply-To: Alex Belits To: "John S. Dyson" cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <199704140653.BAA00534@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > and not fall apart instantly, distribution that supports upgrades > > that could be done by user with minimal knowledge about OS internals > > > You mean the kernel of the week syndrome? No, "normal" Linux kernel upgrades don't need any mechanism because major changes that affect programs/libc are rare (like ELF introduction or 1.2 -> 2.0 for normal user). When necessary to upgrade kernel to version that affects installed user-space software it can be done consistently either from source distributions directly or using packages that are maintained by distributions vendors. But I'm talking about upgrades outside of kernel, and to do that one doesn't need to replace/recompile half of his system to update libc or apply security fix -- either using original sources or packages. > > attractive for commercial vendors than FreeBSD with its closed-group > > attitude. > > > Please contribute -- we aren't closed. There is the issue of having > quality control or not. We choose the former. With so many things under that quality control it looks inefficient on ones that really need it. In Linux most important packages that are present in all distributions, are quality-controlled by definitely knowledgeable people, who handle them. Other things are handled by distribution vendors. Sorry to mention it, I have yet to see Linux distribution that had xterm using wtmp format from one version and the rest of system from another. > > Example from "noncommercial" world: the idea of "ports" that > > don't have to be supported by actual author/maintainer of a program but > > can include "FreeBSD-specific" patch (most likely to some ancient version) > > and doomed to instantly become outdated without original author's support > > vs. Linux users tradition of using author's sources that are definitely > > supported directly or Red Hat's rpm system that has its flaws but makes it > > way harder for knowledgeable user to shoot himself in the foot. > > > Actually, I find alot of #ifdef FreeBSD and configure's that work directly > with FreeBSD. Much software works directly out of the box directly from > the vendor/developer. Then why "port" it? And even if it doesn't why not to send those "patches" to the original author? Will he support them worse? I don't think, he will answer "I won't support FreeBSD, maintain patches to my program yourself". At least, I can't imagine myself saying that. > You have the option of using the ports collection > so that you have fewer problems or want to install directly out-of-the-box. This is not what I've seen. It installs things automatically. But I never can be sure is the installed version even maintained now, not to mention, is it the latest, or does the author support his own freebsd port. > Note also that the CDROM contains the apps that can be freely redistributed > (unlike certain Zmodem or Kermit distributions.) Linux distributions contain commercial software if the distribution vendor supports that. It's better for product vendor (distribution vendor makes sure that distribution is consistent), distribution vendor (obviously, money) and user (much cheaper than mail-order the same thing, and there is an option to get the same or different distribution without those commercial things if he doesn't need them). Of course, that doesn't apply to extremely expensive products. > > Both Linux and FreeBSD change fast, although FreeBSD comes in one > > monolithic distribution, and any attempt to get something fixed throws > > user into -CURRENT (no pun intended but it seems appropriate) with all its > > instability and experiments around. > > > Not true, 2.2.X is a new released codebase. It isn't -current. Things get > fixed in the 2.2.X base. I wouldn't be suprised if 2.1.X is also still being > supported for existing apps, on an as needed basis. by -current I mean -current, not 2.2.x. And stability of 2.2 could be better, too. > BTW, -current isn't > always stable -- and end users should use it only for experimentation, > or they should support it entirely themselves. Luckily, you can always > check out a system source tree for any point in history (or release) with > the CVS tree (which is publically available -- and you can have your own, > local copy.) That enables people to support themselves when running > -current more easily (when absolutely needed.) BTW, I have absolutely > no trouble maintaining a CVS tree on my machine at home with a 28.8K > modem. There are various distribution mechanisms for the FreeBSD CVS > tree, and you can choose the one that works best for you. Yes -- if you want to always keep up with OS development. Some people like that, but most of them prefer to have something stable and do minimal upgrades for functionality/security fixes, hardware changes and major OS improvements. > > If vendors that now support Linux had > > to switch to 2.1.x kernel just to keep with library changes I believe, > > they had used OpenNT by now. > > > What about the users who have problems with the shared-libs of the > week problem? No such problem. In Linux shared libraries change rarely, and incompatible changes happen extremely rarely. Distributions are built with new libraries and allow upgrades with at least less pain that FreeBSD causes. Manual upgrades within major version number are mostly painless. > Which version of Netscape Formally, Netscape Navigator Linux binary in form that is distributed at Netscape FTP site is incompatible with all currently distributed Linux libc versions. Netscape made horrible code that depends on malloc implementation, and since it seems to be deaf to bugreports, netscape in Linux is now running from the shell script that LD_PRELOAD's gnumalloc. Everything else works fine even though Netscape binary definitely wasn't built with the same libc version. > /Staroffice, etc. with which > shared-libs? The only time that I have problems mixing/matching shared > libs is when running Linux apps on FreeBSD or Linux apps on Linux. If you take programs in binaries and just copy them -- yes, you will have that problem if program depends on things that changed. But those programs mostly are distributed in sources. Again, I'm not talking about major version number or features that never were announced as working in "mainstream" distribution (such as mt-safe libc). > > FreeBSD technically is a nice OS. Organization of its development and > > distribution looks umm... unhealthy. > > > You mean a central group of people who are trying to maintain quality and > branding (FreeBSD)? The way how it's done is a problem. "Ports" make things worse (don't tell me that "ported" program has better quality than one, maintained by the author). People are trying to be everything, and it's impossible. > Or a bunch of distributions with a bunch of different > combinations of shared libs and apps (and kernel versions, Linux)? Linux is more tolerant to versions changes of components because its design assumes that things should remain compatible. It not always allows fast improvement in the code but encourages upgrades when they are necessary (ex: security fixes). And all distributions that I know, update kernel/libraries simultaneously. > I prefer > a coherent development path/group. It is pretty good that we have > 70+- committers that can modify the tree directly, and don't have chaos. > In fact, we are pretty well organized. "Organized" isn't always "good". And "you" are "organized" inside group -- others just see that things randomly change without announce or explanation. For commercial vendor it's worse, or at least, scarier. M$ can afford doing random changes here and there -- but it 1. often does that to gain advantage over other software companies, so its goal is directly opposite to FreeBSD and Linux, 2. sends to developers those CDs with suspiciously-looking logo and something more comprehendable than -current sources on them. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 01:37:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26326 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inter03.lion.net ([195.50.148.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26321 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucky.lion.de ([192.109.89.2]) by inter03.lion.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA22885; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:34:50 +0200 Received: from willi.lion.de by lucky.lion.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id KAA20147; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:36:25 +0200 Received: from localhost by willi.lion.de (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA28742; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:35:41 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:35:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: Christoph Haas To: dennis Cc: Pedro Giffuni , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413214534.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > YOU dont understand marketing. You make something *expensive* by > adding value. Companies that have cheap products (ie some of my > competitors) do so because they can't or dont know how to add > value. "dumping" products into the free market is a last resort, when > you fail to compete in the value-added market. SCO's Free OpenServer comes to midn ;-) > If this is what you are > hoping for then you are resigned to mediocrity. The purpose of > attracting commercial vendor SHOULD be to get quality products... > not junk. FreeBSD is loaded with junk already. You should want > supported products...not basic drivers supported by some guy in > the urals who has a 50 hr a week commitment elsewhere and fixes > stuff only when his wife and kids are at grandmas. To come back to my original question: How do you want to attract vendors and convince them that FreeBSD is a high quality product ? My idea, starting with some kind of support for vendors, doesn't semm to make it here, so where are those great ideas ?? Christoph -- Christoph Haas o.tel.o GmbH | Never trust an operating UNIX Sysadmin Universitaetsstrasse 140| system you don't have the 44799 Bochum / Germany | sources for. mailto:haas@lion.de http://www.o-tel-o.de | http://www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 01:43:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26563 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:43:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.aceonline.com.au (obiwan.aceonline.com.au [203.103.90.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26556 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.aceonline.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01371; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:31:07 +0800 (WST) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:31:07 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Alex Belits cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dennis , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry (well, kind of...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Case in point... Lin[s]ux... Ten-Twenty different versions, bad > > networking, even worse VM... Vendors love it!! Why? Hmmmm... > Why has Linux grown so quickly? :) Because .. (IMHO everywhere here :) Firstly, Linux was very VERY alpha when Linus released it, and it was very hackable. Lots of people loved it. In fact, its still like that. The thing with Linux is there is just tons and tons of "unofficial" patches that do all kinds of nasty things. Secondly - its everywhere now. Developers want their product pushed out to as many people as possible. Linux is far more popular for the "average" user than FreeBSD is. Why? Cause linux (again, remember its all IMHO) is a lot more "user-friendly". Look at it from a non-technical point of view. In the distributions of Linux I've seen, there are a lot of friendly scripts to reconfigure your networking, your mail setup, hell even an X configuration tool to build your kernel! Serious users would whisper "bloat". Novice users would whisper "easy". Again, yes I have used both Linux *and* FreeBSD. I use both right now, on quite large multi-multi-user-servers. In fact, I was a total Linux head and didn't like the look of FreeBSD until I was more clueful about programming, networking, stuff like that. Trouble is, that isn't what your "typical" user wants. Suggestion - in the "novice" setup in sysinstall, how about having like a select set of packages and whatnot to make a 'user-friendly' system? Eg when you install X, it doesn't install twm (come on, most users look at that and barf), instead say fvwm2 with a slightly customized fvwmrc file to make it more 'friendly' ? Then other nice tools like xv, xpaint, maybe a couple of small games, and they are all in the fvwm menu. Next - making "bash" the default user shell. Before you bite my head off, think about it :) It is a lot more friendly than csh, has command line completion, history, and to be honest, linux comes with it too. People switching wouldn't be too confused (I know I was). I'll drop the colour-ls plug as well :) I'll stop now cause you are all probably ready to lart me with great enthusiasm, but just put yourself in newbie-shoes and think what its like to install FreeBSD, and then configure it. Then "change" its configuration. Then build a kernel. Sure, you'll say "read the docs", but then how many people *READ* the manual before installing something? (Count the emails on the lists of people who do, see what I mean..) FYI one of the things I dislike about installing Linux is it installs a lot of "bloat" that I don't need (like the friendly config stuff :) I like FreeBSD cause it doesn't have it, and it would be better IMHO if FreeBSD had both options. Cya Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 01:49:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26851 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26846 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA07960; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:50:56 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:50:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits Reply-To: Alex Belits To: Joerg Wunsch cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <19970414091216.YL45051@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > The junk is not at crucial parts of the system. Things like ft(4) or > aic(4) (yeah, my most favourite examples) simply haven't been removed > since users are still using them. But, etinc.com doesn't have to rely > on a crappy floppy tape driver. ...and this is wrong -- if users use it and it doesn't work, no commercial software verndor will feel safe with such system because he will fear that users will abandon system, or system's problems will be attributed to his software. Arguments like "only losers use floppy tape, but since they do, we keep crappy code for them, and everywhere else our system is good" won't help in that case. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 02:03:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA27461 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inter03.lion.net ([195.50.148.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA27440 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 02:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucky.lion.de ([192.109.89.2]) by inter03.lion.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA23152; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:01:11 +0200 Received: from willi.lion.de by lucky.lion.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id LAA20527; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:02:46 +0200 Received: from localhost by willi.lion.de (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA29700; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:02:29 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:02:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: Christoph Haas To: jbryant@tfs.net Cc: dennis , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Jim Bryant wrote: > Who here has seen "The Life of Brian"? Me ;-) > This topic sounds like a > meeting of the People's Front of Judea [officials]! But you keep > talking like this, you may as well be the the Crack Suicide Squad of > the Judean People's Front!!! The point is, get up off your @sses and > get commercial support, stop talking about it! > > Do you think Bill Gates got where he is today by debating for three > years on whether or not to take action? Or for that matter, the same > for the lamers using Lin[s]ux!!!! Allright. Now that I've followed the discussion for a while, I'm going to setup a registration desk for commercial vendors. Its success depends of whether you (the developers) try to help me a little bit or not. All I ask from you is to leave me a little note if you break something seriuosly. I will follow the normal commit messages and maybe I'm forwarding and filtering them (Joerg's idea) to vendors that subscribed to a special service ("notification service for code-breaking commits from hell" ;-) I'm pretty flexible now, 'cause I haven't started it yet, so I want to hear some thoughts about which services you want to see provided to commercial vendors. Please don't follow up to THIS posting if you aren't interested in it. Thanks... Christoph From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 03:02:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00424 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA00415 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from 0@sinbin.demos.su [194.87.0.31] for with ESMTP id OAA24843; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:00:33 +0400 Received: by sinbin.demos.su id OAA13821; (8.6.12/D) Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:00:13 +0400 From: bag@sinbin.demos.su (Alex G. Bulushev) Message-Id: <199704111115.PAA11170@sinbin.demos.su> Subject: mbuf clusters problem in 2.2.1R To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:15:42 +0400 (MSD) Cc: mishania@demos.su X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7a] Content-Type: text Status: RO Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk we use p6-200 with two 3940UW and fxp (100baseT fullduplex) 256M RAM under fbsd 2.2.1R system reboots once per 2-6 days with out of mbuf clusters diagnostic on console ... we use maxusers=256 without any effect, then we increase NMBCLUSTERS to 8192 and then to 12288 with the same effect ... while working, number of allocated mbuf clusters permanently increase (some mbufs not freeing?) and then system crashed ... this effect exists only on system with big network traffic ... now we run: squid - up to 200 connection simultaneously ircd - up to 50 connection cvsupd ... our config parameters for now: machine "i386" cpu "I686_CPU" ident SKRALDESPAND maxusers 256 options "MAXMEM=(1024*256)" options "CHILD_MAX=256" options "OPEN_MAX=256" options "NMBCLUSTERS=12288" ... for exemple: we reboot system 9 Apr 8:10 MSD and system crash 11 Apr 13:11 MSD (moscow time) now output of "netstat -m" 11 Apr 10:08 (3:03 h before crash) 7407 mbufs in use: 7005 mbufs allocated to data 385 mbufs allocated to packet headers 14 mbufs allocated to protocol control blocks 3 mbufs allocated to socket names and addresses 4662/5808 mbuf clusters in use 12541 Kbytes allocated to network (81% in use) 0 requests for memory denied 0 requests for memory delayed 0 calls to protocol drain routines now output of "netstat -m" 11 Apr 13:07 (4 min before crash) 14911 mbufs in use: 13719 mbufs allocated to data 1176 mbufs allocated to packet headers 14 mbufs allocated to protocol control blocks 2 mbufs allocated to socket names and addresses 11062/11070 mbuf clusters in use 24003 Kbytes allocated to network (-74% in use) ^^^^^^^ ?????????????????? 0 requests for memory denied 0 requests for memory delayed 0 calls to protocol drain routines now output of "netstat -m" 11 Apr 13:10 (1 min before crash) 18053 mbufs in use: 16818 mbufs allocated to data 1219 mbufs allocated to packet headers 14 mbufs allocated to protocol control blocks 2 mbufs allocated to socket names and addresses 14042/14060 mbuf clusters in use ^^^^^^^^^^^???????????????????????????????????????????? 30376 Kbytes allocated to network (-38% in use) ^^^^????????????????????? 0 requests for memory denied 0 requests for memory delayed 0 calls to protocol drain routines and finaly output of "vmstat -m" 11 Apr 13:10 (1 min before crash) Memory statistics by bucket size Size In Use Free Requests HighWater Couldfree 16 64 1216 19595 1280 0 32 803 221 1530461 640 0 64 26699 181 11521706 320 4260 128 42695 441 17518361 160 209 256 24294 218 13739144 80 7 512 287 33 470915 40 4067 1K 403 193 28390362 20 6966374 2K 12 40 6629 10 5033 4K 18 1 282 5 0 8K 5 0 15 5 0 16K 13 0 13 5 0 32K 1 0 2 5 0 64K 5 0 34 5 0 Memory usage type by bucket size Size Type(s) 16 devbuf, pcb, routetbl, vnodes, proc, temp 32 devbuf, pcb, routetbl, pgrp, session, subproc, ether_multi, temp, sysctl 64 routetbl, ifaddr, namecache, VM mapent, VM pgdata, file, lockf, in_multi, temp 128 devbuf, pcb, routetbl, zombie, ifaddr, cred, vnodes, VM map, VM object, VM pgdata, file desc, temp, ttys, isa_devlist 256 devbuf, socket, pcb, routetbl, vnodes, VM map, VM pgdata, file desc, subproc, FFS node, temp, isa_devlist 512 devbuf, pcb, ioctlops, mount, UFS mount, VM pgdata, file desc, proc, temp, BIO buffer 1K devbuf, namei, UFS mount, VM pgdata, file desc, proc, BIO buffer, select 2K devbuf, ioctlops, UFS mount, VM pgdata, file desc, BIO buffer 4K devbuf, ioctlops, VM pgdata, proc, temp 8K UFS mount, VM pgdata 16K mbuf, devbuf, VM pgdata 32K devbuf, VM pgdata 64K namecache, UFS quota, UFS mount, VM pgdata Memory statistics by type Type Kern Type InUse MemUse HighUse Limit Requests Limit Limit Size(s) mbuf 1 16K 16K 19661K 1 0 0 16K devbuf 79 269K 269K 19661K 120 0 0 16,32,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,16K,32K socket 1054 264K 292K 19661K 3327511 0 0 256 pcb 2058 386K 426K 19661K 4729672 0 0 16,32,128,256,512 routetbl 539 74K 222K 19661K 411222 0 0 16,32,64,128,256 zombie 1 1K 11K 19661K 470538 0 0 128 ifaddr 13 2K 2K 19661K 13 0 0 64,128 namei 0 0K 44K 19661K 25243015 0 0 1K ioctlops 0 0K 4K 19661K 7 0 0 512,2K,4K cred 174 22K 26K 19661K 445711 0 0 128 pgrp 139 5K 6K 19661K 423158 0 0 32 session 127 4K 6K 19661K 422463 0 0 32 mount 4 2K 2K 19661K 4 0 0 512 vnodes 21508 2685K 2703K 19661K 25175 0 0 16,128,256 namecache 21458 1406K 1406K 19661K 21458 0 0 64,64K UFS quota 1 64K 64K 19661K 1 0 0 64K UFS mount 10 89K 89K 19661K 10 0 0 512,1K,2K,8K,64K VM map 263 65K 74K 19661K 470800 0 0 128,256 VM mapent 3757 235K 235K 19661K 3757 0 0 64 VM object 18658 2333K 2373K 19661K 13208180 0 0 128 VM pgdata 968 299K 299K 19661K 3521 0 0 64,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K,32K,64K file 918 58K 66K 19661K 11150140 0 0 64 file desc 270 38K 42K 19661K 471019 0 0 128,256,512,1K,2K lockf 13 1K 3K 19661K 344384 0 0 64 proc 268 138K 154K 19661K 486666 0 0 16,512,1K,4K subproc 284 15K 17K 19661K 941359 0 0 32,256 FFS node 21453 5364K 5364K 19661K 7386682 0 0 256 in_multi 2 1K 1K 19661K 2 0 0 64 ether_multi 1 1K 1K 19661K 1 0 0 32 temp 49 10K 24K 19661K 48682 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,4K ttys 830 104K 119K 19661K 8279 0 0 128 isa_devlist 1 1K 1K 19661K 2 0 0 128,256 sysctl 0 0K 1K 19661K 2 0 0 32 BIO buffer 203 203K 419K 19661K 2714243 0 0 512,1K,2K select 195 195K 226K 19661K 439721 0 0 1K Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests 14336K 441K 73197519 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 03:06:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00589 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.linkdesign.com (nserv1.hlink.com.cy [194.42.131.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA00582 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.linkdesign.com (nicosia60.cylink.com.cy [194.42.129.94]) by relay.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA25450; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:06:40 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bsd.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04329; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:04:05 +0300 (EEST) From: Michael Bielicki Message-ID: <19970414130404.37224@linkdesign.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:04:04 +0300 To: Adrian Chadd Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry (well, kind of...) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=+v6kSLEYT3h4C6bb X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian Chadd on Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 04:31:07PM +0800 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --+v6kSLEYT3h4C6bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Adrian, I couldn't agree more. We are putting servers for providers. Mostly with 3.0 CURRENT because from our experience it seems more stable and much faster than the 2.2.X RELEASE Versions. First thing we do is to put bash 2.0 and fvwm95 on the boxes to make it easy for the users to work on this boxes. Personally I run fvwm2, cause I am not very Windows knowledgeble :)) But the users love it. And with a couple of tk and expect scripts we made the stuff userfriendly enough that even the secretary's are using it for customer management. Bash is very usrefriendly and if you add git every basic dos user is able to handle the system. Thank's god for the fvwm95, it brings lot's of users back to X :)) cheers Michael -- Michael Bielicki Link Design International Ltd. Buisnetco Telecommunications Ltd. 65 Cliff Road, Tramore, Office 23, 13, Iras Street Co. Waterford, Ireland Nicosia 1061, Rep. of Cyprus Tel: +353-51-390880 We use FreeBSD Tel: +357 2 362 421 Fax: +353 51 386921 http://www.linkdesign.com Fax: +357 2 362 429 --+v6kSLEYT3h4C6bb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBM1IBE8neSpf+YTVhAQFM3QP9F34kluu2kzzxCypTiJ1h/0mykeA4ZDnj rgqQyCTbxzdJ/CQzYA69BkXas58onK7HnMv/1WaraABEfXQjCSYS9QVeimVc3MC/ B+CrOaodBSC7vazBKCtckWOZQDPsh7uuqChMZpy/mzmz7MTS6J+APcMdxVaYH9BI +MDkLyK3cfI= =AZuK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+v6kSLEYT3h4C6bb-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 03:11:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00904 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA00899 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id MAA03406 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:11:37 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01287; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:10:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970414121005.VV52872@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:10:05 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <19970414091216.YL45051@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Belits on Apr 14, 1997 01:50:56 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Alex Belits wrote: > ...and this is wrong -- if users use it and it doesn't work, no > commercial software verndor will feel safe with such system because he > will fear that users will abandon system, or system's problems will be > attributed to his software. Arguments like "only losers use floppy tape, > but since they do, we keep crappy code for them, and everywhere else our > system is good" won't help in that case. So what? Do you want us to remove these drivers? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 03:25:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA01689 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.linkdesign.com (nserv1.hlink.com.cy [194.42.131.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA01681 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.linkdesign.com (nicosia60.cylink.com.cy [194.42.129.94]) by relay.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA26172; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:25:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bsd.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04381; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:21:29 +0300 (EEST) From: Michael Bielicki Message-ID: <19970414132007.50670@linkdesign.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:20:07 +0300 To: Christoph Haas Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=VLE5tlY1O9Q2l3mY X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 In-Reply-To: ; from Christoph Haas on Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 11:02:28AM +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --VLE5tlY1O9Q2l3mY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hmmm, some kind of Tortilla Flat here ??? anyway, christoph I find your Idea and action perfect and would have one basic question: Would you add a description where FreeBSD differs from the basic BSD stuff ?? Would you add a description how far posix support goes ?? These are the two questions I have been asked all the time when I suggested FreeBSD as a commercial platform. The problem is not only on the development side but also on the sales side. As long as I cannot tell my customer that his SCO based Oracle will run perfectly on FreeBSD and that I will be able to give him this guarantee on paper he will not even dream about moving to FreeBSD. As long as the commercial customers don't like FreeBSD I have difficulties in pushing commercial vendors to develop drivers. I work a lot with development companies for things like network drivers, PSTN over the Internet etc... and none of them treats this stuff seriously. I tried to get TokenRing drivers from a lot of companies and was even ready to pay up to 1500 Bucks for the driver only. No chance. I know that you guys here are not very in the legacy market, but simnce SNA counts for 65 Billion US$ only in Europe and the Middle East I am very much in it :)) And there the bullshit starts. Most customers I have would be happy to use FreeBSD as there gateway to the Internet. Support for SSH does a lot, and the Filtering alias and NAT features are perfect. Stability is an argument too. But, to get support for tn5250 I would have to write my own cause none of the vendors supplies one for freebsd. Hmmm gosh, I can get one for 99US$ for Windows and use it for them with WInGate. How the hell should I explain this to a customer? BTW, the same applies to BSDI so FreeBSD is not alone here, but IMHO if this is going to be a commercial platform, give some incentives to the development guys and stop talking like this list would be the clue to everything. No developer will even look at this stuff as long as there is no professional support and no ass to kick if something does not work. I don't see the commercial guys risking their ass to convince a customer to use FreeBSD Cheers Michael On Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 11:02:28AM +0200, Christoph Haas shaped the electrons to say: > On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Jim Bryant wrote: > > > Who here has seen "The Life of Brian"? > > Me ;-) > > > This topic sounds like a > > meeting of the People's Front of Judea [officials]! But you keep > > talking like this, you may as well be the the Crack Suicide Squad of > > the Judean People's Front!!! The point is, get up off your @sses and > > get commercial support, stop talking about it! > > > > Do you think Bill Gates got where he is today by debating for three > > years on whether or not to take action? Or for that matter, the same > > for the lamers using Lin[s]ux!!!! > > Allright. Now that I've followed the discussion for a while, I'm going to > setup a registration desk for commercial vendors. Its success depends of > whether you (the developers) try to help me a little bit or not. All I ask > from you is to leave me a little note if you break something seriuosly. I > will follow the normal commit messages and maybe I'm forwarding and > filtering them (Joerg's idea) to vendors that subscribed to a special > service ("notification service for code-breaking commits from hell" ;-) > > I'm pretty flexible now, 'cause I haven't started it yet, so I want to > hear some thoughts about which services you want to see provided to > commercial vendors. Please don't follow up to THIS posting if you aren't > interested in it. > > Thanks... > > Christoph > > > -- Michael Bielicki Link Design International Ltd. Buisnetco Telecommunications Ltd. 65 Cliff Road, Tramore, Office 23, 13, Iras Street Co. Waterford, Ireland Nicosia 1061, Rep. of Cyprus Tel: +353-51-390880 We use FreeBSD Tel: +357 2 362 421 Fax: +353 51 386921 http://www.linkdesign.com Fax: +357 2 362 429 --VLE5tlY1O9Q2l3mY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBM1IE18neSpf+YTVhAQENqwQArJ37kojOPKWEFigGrmw8PJEEAxybg4/w 0AHTY1jWIiX4QkA9dYY5kbu6buU/1CX03ULqVhw9gWxAucP1gN7zKeWYi25WkwTb x0drA/yzTDk0m4+fLyDufgM3Zf6Rdl3TxvMCyUB3w+flukTsXJ047r0CL2Joxb3K /FAmtF01i/E= =wax0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VLE5tlY1O9Q2l3mY-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 03:26:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA01781 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.linkdesign.com (nserv1.hlink.com.cy [194.42.131.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA01773 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 03:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.linkdesign.com (nicosia60.cylink.com.cy [194.42.129.94]) by relay.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA26181 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:27:06 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bsd.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04399; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:24:32 +0300 (EEST) From: Michael Bielicki Message-ID: <19970414132431.17367@linkdesign.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:24:31 +0300 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: How is the stability of >SMP ??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary="K16UQ/ivtKtFalx5" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --K16UQ/ivtKtFalx5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Has anybody experience with the SMP kernel and how stable is it ??? I want to recommend it to a customer for running a heavily packed national router in eastern europe. So it has to be at least as stable as a CISCO 7200 :))) cheers Michael -- Michael Bielicki Link Design International Ltd. Buisnetco Telecommunications Ltd. 65 Cliff Road, Tramore, Office 23, 13, Iras Street Co. Waterford, Ireland Nicosia 1061, Rep. of Cyprus Tel: +353-51-390880 We use FreeBSD Tel: +357 2 362 421 Fax: +353 51 386921 http://www.linkdesign.com Fax: +357 2 362 429 --K16UQ/ivtKtFalx5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBM1IF3sneSpf+YTVhAQHE8AP+K0OPlG+aCLwWb9+BBOImZDK3xPX2Wzen wo5gmyxcIREDqXGB5Amrb/KZwmpoy0A0Tvgiz+gpy9+SPGgV2r56JssePUTN79rQ 91Ecm2JrFDqDnc5+0bazDvnn8qXj/HTjEqQ7+ncG6yOEMSDDogPj2lFgVG77tfEt wGDj39jaYAg= =fB7l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --K16UQ/ivtKtFalx5-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 04:02:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA03889 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casparc.ppp.net ([194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA03883 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0wGjWM-000IOpC; Mon, 14 Apr 97 13:02 MET DST Received: by ernie.kts.org via sendmail with stdio id for jkh@time.cdrom.com; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:16:52 +0200 (MET DST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #2 built 1997-Feb-8) Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:16:52 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hm@kts.org, jbryant@tfs.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413124511.006cd410@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 13, 97 12:45:14 pm Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dennis wrote: > We'd be happy to work with someone commited to making this stuff usable. > We have hardware LAPB and an option level 3 API that could be integrated > without a major effort. I had a look at it and gave up. I'm close to writing my own LAPD code as i have to get my ISDN stuff up and running and are not that interested in LAPB. hellmuth -- hellmuth michaelis hm@kts.org hamburg, europe From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 04:08:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA04316 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA04311 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA09057; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:55:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704141055.GAA09057@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: file i/o from device driver? In-Reply-To: <199704140752.AAA00950@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Apr 14, 97 00:52:23 am" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We have a couple of video capture drivers and was wondering what would it > take to pass a file handle to a driver so it can write the captured frames > to a file? IMHO: You don't want to do that. You want some way of synchronizing between a capturer and a logger. Maybe you can summarize the requirements on the data stream and the collection process? Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 04:10:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA04476 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA04428; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id VAA07139; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:06:04 +1000 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:06:04 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704141106.VAA07139@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bugs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org, mtaylor@cybernet.com Subject: Re: vnode as filesystem (crash!) Cc: dyson@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm trying to use a vnode as a file system. > >I have no problem "vnconfig"ing and "newfs"ing it (a 10 MB test >case, derived from "dd" and /dev/zero). > >The problem comes when I start creating files on the mounted >vnode. I can get a few hundred files created (this is a random >number: sometimes a few hundred, but never more than two thousand), >and then it hangs the system (actually, sometimes it causes a reboot). >No panics, no kernel messages, just a hang/reboot. I haven't tried the >kernel debugger yet (I don't know how to use it [yet].). :) /dev/vn has been broken for some time (perhaps always). In -current, writing a lot of files to it consistently causes a double fault panic because of deep recursion. Writes via vnstrategy() sometimes call bread() to read an indirect block or something like that, and bread() sometimes calls vnstrategy() to finish off some delayed writes. These writes apparentl often call bread() ... Perhaps the recursion is actually limited by the number of delayed writes, but some of the routines are stack hogs so the stack is exhausted after only about 10 levels of recursion. Bruce db> t 0xf328600c _vfs_bio_awrite(f256d6a4,f256d6a4,2000,0,8) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0xde _vfs_bio_awrite(f256d6a4,0,2000,7d,f01373b2) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0xde _getnewbuf(0,0,2000,2000,f3286128) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05aa500,7d,2000,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _bread(f05aa500,7d,2000,0,f3286128) at _bread+0x21 _ffs_balloc(f05ad400,7d,2000,f0618680,f328622c) at _ffs_balloc+0x7c5 _ffs_write(f3286298,f05c3000,f256bf70,f059c800,7dc) at _ffs_write+0x2fa _vnstrategy(f256bf70,f3286318,f01bfe4a,f3286330,f256bf70) at _vnstrategy+0x22c _spec_strategy(f3286330,f256bf70,200202b4,f256bf70,800) at _spec_strategy+0x1a _ufs_strategy(f3286330) at _ufs_strategy+0xbe _bwrite(f256bf70,f3286374,f0138163,f328636c,f256bf70) at _bwrite+0x9c _vn_bwrite(f328636c,f256bf70,2000,0,8) at _vn_bwrite+0xe _vfs_bio_awrite(f256bf70,0,2000,81,0) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0x10f _getnewbuf(0,0,2000,2000,f3286460) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05aa500,81,2000,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _bread(f05aa500,81,2000,0,f3286460) at _bread+0x21 _ffs_balloc(f05ad400,81,800,f0618680,f3286564) at _ffs_balloc+0x7c5 _ffs_write(f32865d0,f05c3000,f256ecfc,f05c6800,810) at _ffs_write+0x2fa _vnstrategy(f256ecfc,f3286650,f01bfe4a,f3286668,f256ecfc) at _vnstrategy+0x22c _spec_strategy(f3286668,f256ecfc,200202b4,f256ecfc,800) at _spec_strategy+0x1a _ufs_strategy(f3286668) at _ufs_strategy+0xbe _bwrite(f256ecfc,f32866ac,f0138163,f32866a4,f256ecfc) at _bwrite+0x9c _vn_bwrite(f32866a4,f256ecfc,2000,0,8) at _vn_bwrite+0xe _vfs_bio_awrite(f256ecfc,0,2000,60,2000) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0x10f _getnewbuf(0,0,2000,2000,f3286798) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05aa500,60,2000,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _bread(f05aa500,60,2000,0,f3286798) at _bread+0x21 _ffs_balloc(f05ad400,60,1000,f0618680,f328689c) at _ffs_balloc+0x7c5 _ffs_write(f3286908,f05c3000,f256c574,f05cf800,602) at _ffs_write+0x2fa _vnstrategy(f256c574,f3286988,f01bfe4a,f32869a0,f256c574) at _vnstrategy+0x22c _spec_strategy(f32869a0,f256c574,200202b4,f256c574,c00) at _spec_strategy+0x1a _ufs_strategy(f32869a0) at _ufs_strategy+0xbe _bwrite(f256c574,f32869e4,f0138163,f32869dc,f256c574) at _bwrite+0x9c _vn_bwrite(f32869dc,f256c574,2000,0,8) at _vn_bwrite+0xe _vfs_bio_awrite(f256c574,0,2000,62,0) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0x10f _getnewbuf(0,0,2000,2000,f3286ad0) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05aa500,62,2000,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _bread(f05aa500,62,2000,0,f3286ad0) at _bread+0x21 _ffs_balloc(f05ad400,62,2000,f0618680,f3286bd4) at _ffs_balloc+0x7c5 _ffs_write(f3286c40,f05c3000,f256dca8,f05c0a00,62c) at _ffs_write+0x2fa _vnstrategy(f256dca8,f3286cc0,f01bfe4a,f3286cd8,f256dca8) at _vnstrategy+0x22c _spec_strategy(f3286cd8,f256dca8,200202b4,f256dca8,800) at _spec_strategy+0x1a _ufs_strategy(f3286cd8) at _ufs_strategy+0xbe _bwrite(f256dca8,f3286d1c,f0138163,f3286d14,f256dca8) at _bwrite+0x9c _vn_bwrite(f3286d14,f256dca8,2000,0,8) at _vn_bwrite+0xe _vfs_bio_awrite(f256dca8,0,2000,62,f01373b2) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0x10f _getnewbuf(0,0,2000,2000,f3286e08) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05aa500,62,2000,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _bread(f05aa500,62,2000,0,f3286e08) at _bread+0x21 _ffs_balloc(f05ad400,62,1800,f0618680,f3286f0c) at _ffs_balloc+0x7c5 _ffs_write(f3286f78,f05c3000,f256d85c,f05bfa00,628) at _ffs_write+0x2fa _vnstrategy(f256d85c,f3286ff8,f01bfe4a,f3287010,f256d85c) at _vnstrategy+0x22c _spec_strategy(f3287010,f256d85c,200202b4,f256d85c,800) at _spec_strategy+0x1a _ufs_strategy(f3287010) at _ufs_strategy+0xbe _bwrite(f256d85c,f3287054,f0138163,f328704c,f256d85c) at _bwrite+0x9c _vn_bwrite(f328704c,f256d85c,2000,0,8) at _vn_bwrite+0xe _vfs_bio_awrite(f256d85c,0,2000,68,f01373b2) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0x10f _getnewbuf(0,0,2000,2000,f3287140) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05aa500,68,2000,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _bread(f05aa500,68,2000,0,f3287140) at _bread+0x21 _ffs_balloc(f05ad400,68,2000,f0618680,f3287244) at _ffs_balloc+0x7c5 _ffs_write(f32872b0,f05c3000,f2566610,f05bd200,68c) at _ffs_write+0x2fa _vnstrategy(f2566610,f3287330,f01bfe4a,f3287348,f2566610) at _vnstrategy+0x22c _spec_strategy(f3287348,f2566610,200202b4,f2566610,800) at _spec_strategy+0x1a _ufs_strategy(f3287348) at _ufs_strategy+0xbe _bwrite(f2566610,f328738c,f0138163,f3287384,f2566610) at _bwrite+0x9c _vn_bwrite(f3287384,f2566610,2000,0,8) at _vn_bwrite+0xe _vfs_bio_awrite(f2566610,0,2000,60,f01373b2) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0x10f _getnewbuf(0,0,2000,2000,f3287478) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05aa500,60,2000,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _bread(f05aa500,60,2000,0,f3287478) at _bread+0x21 _ffs_balloc(f05ad400,60,2000,f0618680,f328757c) at _ffs_balloc+0x7c5 _ffs_write(f32875e8,f05c3000,f256a760,f05bb600,60c) at _ffs_write+0x2fa _vnstrategy(f256a760,f3287668,f01bfe4a,f3287680,f256a760) at _vnstrategy+0x22c _spec_strategy(f3287680,f256a760,200202b4,f256a760,800) at _spec_strategy+0x1a _ufs_strategy(f3287680) at _ufs_strategy+0xbe _bwrite(f256a760,f32876c4,f0138163,f32876bc,f256a760) at _bwrite+0x9c _vn_bwrite(f32876bc,f256a760,2000,0,8) at _vn_bwrite+0xe _vfs_bio_awrite(f256a760,0,2000,60,0) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0x10f _getnewbuf(0,0,2000,2000,f32877b0) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05aa500,60,2000,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _bread(f05aa500,60,2000,0,f32877b0) at _bread+0x21 _ffs_balloc(f05ad400,60,1800,f0618680,f32878b4) at _ffs_balloc+0x7c5 _ffs_write(f3287920,f05c3000,f256aad0,f05bbe00,608) at _ffs_write+0x2fa _vnstrategy(f256aad0,f32879a0,f01bfe4a,f32879b8,f256aad0) at _vnstrategy+0x22c _spec_strategy(f32879b8,f256aad0,200202b4,f256aad0,800) at _spec_strategy+0x1a _ufs_strategy(f32879b8) at _ufs_strategy+0xbe _bwrite(f256aad0,f32879fc,f0138163,f32879f4,f256aad0) at _bwrite+0x9c _vn_bwrite(f32879f4,f256aad0,2000,0,8) at _vn_bwrite+0xe _vfs_bio_awrite(f256aad0,0,2000,66,0) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0x10f _getnewbuf(0,0,2000,2000,f3287ae8) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05aa500,66,2000,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _bread(f05aa500,66,2000,0,f3287ae8) at _bread+0x21 _ffs_balloc(f05ad400,66,2000,f0618680,f3287bec) at _ffs_balloc+0x7c5 _ffs_write(f3287c58,f05c3000,f2568be0,f05bd600,66e) at _ffs_write+0x2fa _vnstrategy(f2568be0,f3287cd8,f01bfe4a,f3287cf0,f2568be0) at _vnstrategy+0x22c _spec_strategy(f3287cf0,f2568be0,200202b4,f2568be0,400) at _spec_strategy+0x1a _ufs_strategy(f3287cf0) at _ufs_strategy+0xbe _bwrite(f2568be0,f3287d34,f0138163,f3287d2c,f2568be0) at _bwrite+0x9c _vn_bwrite(f3287d2c,f2568be0,2000,0,8) at _vn_bwrite+0xe _vfs_bio_awrite(f2568be0,0,600,0,0) at _vfs_bio_awrite+0x10f _getnewbuf(0,0,600,2000,f05b0c00) at _getnewbuf+0x16c _getblk(f05a8b00,0,600,0,0) at _getblk+0x1e5 _nfs_getcacheblk(f05a8b00,0,600,f0592c00,f3287ef0) at _nfs_getcacheblk+0x86 _nfs_bioread(f05a8b00,f3287f34,20000,f0616900,f3287f04) at _nfs_bioread+0x5db _nfs_read(f3287ef0,f02149d8,200,f3287f94,f3287ef0) at _nfs_read+0x1e _vn_read(f061a080,f3287f34,f0616900,f02149d8,f0592c00) at _vn_read+0x115 _read(f0592c00,f3287f94,f3287f84,11000,51c) at _read+0xa7 _syscall(27,efbf0027,11000,51c,efbfd978) at _syscall+0x16b _Xsyscall() at _Xsyscall+0x35 --- syscall 0x3, eip = 0x807b0f1, esp = 0xefbfd968, ebp = 0xefbfd978 --- db> From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 04:46:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06455 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inter03.lion.net ([195.50.148.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06450 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucky.lion.de ([192.109.89.2]) by inter03.lion.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA24767; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:44:17 +0200 Received: from willi.lion.de by lucky.lion.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id NAA22189; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:45:50 +0200 Received: from localhost by willi.lion.de (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00901; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:45:51 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:45:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: Christoph Haas To: Michael Bielicki Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <19970414132007.50670@linkdesign.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Michael Bielicki wrote: > Would you add a description where FreeBSD differs from the basic BSD stuff ?? > > Would you add a description how far posix support goes ?? Added to my todo-list. I think I'm gonna post a summary by the end of the week with all suggestions that show up in my mailbox (and in my dreams at night ;-). So please, if you want to help/join the project/add comments, mail it to me, not to the list. > These are the two questions I have been asked all the time when I suggested > FreeBSD as a commercial platform. The problem is not only on the development > side but also on the sales side. As long as I cannot tell my customer that his > SCO based Oracle will run perfectly on FreeBSD and that I will be able to give > him this guarantee on paper he will not even dream about moving to FreeBSD. Hmm, maybe I'll check it out if I get hold of a copy or Oracle/SCO (I think there is something like Personal Oracle, I'll have a look at it asap). Christoph -- Christoph Haas o.tel.o GmbH | Never trust an operating UNIX Sysadmin Universitaetsstrasse 140| system you don't have the 44799 Bochum / Germany | sources for. mailto:haas@lion.de http://www.o-tel-o.de | http://www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 04:50:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA06621 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06615 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 04:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA01959; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:55:52 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:55:51 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: David Langford cc: Amancio Hasty , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 430TX ? In-Reply-To: <199704112024.KAA00588@caliban.dihelix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, David Langford wrote: > What I really dont understand is why HP and ALR(?) seem to be the only > folks doing memory busses larger than 64 bits wide. One would > think that a 128bit 4-way interleaved motherboard would really help > the crappy memory performance of Intel CPU based systems. How about most SGI machines ? take a look at this: http://www.sgi.com/Products/hardware/Power/challenge-xldata.html It's got a 256bit wide memory bus. I know I can't afford one though =) Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 05:11:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA07751 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA07746 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02249; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:15:55 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:15:55 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: Tony Overfield cc: Michael Smith , David Langford , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 430TX ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970412103112.006b22b4@bugs.us.dell.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id FAA07747 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Tony Overfield wrote: > Stephen Roome said: > ] This is interesting, CTCM (motherboard benchmarker program) seems to tell > ] me that I can get almost 56MB/s memory bandwidth. With a 66MHz bus clock > ] I can't see how that this figure can improve much. > > 56MB/s is about half of the "correct" number. Are you sure you're > interpreting the results correctly? For example, if the benchmark is > measuring MOVSD performance, perhaps you're forgetting to double the > numbers, since the operation is a memory copy. If your memory bandwidth > really is only 56MB/s, then that's slow, not fast. Yup it's MOVSD, my mistake, I had a better memory bandwidth checker before which gave figures for each of your Megabytes and gives about 128MB/s on the first MB and obviously less on the others. I expect this is due to the cacheing. > > ] Seeing as Intel seem > ] unlikely to support a 75MHz or 83MHz bus speed then I'd love to know how > ] they intend on doing this. > > I can't speak for Intel, but Intel says this on its www site: > "In addition, the Dual Independent Bus architecture supports the evolution > of today’s 66 MHz system memory bus to a 100 MHz system memory bus within > the next year." I actually meant this in regards of the motherboard, although their chipsets support higher clock speeds (even if not widely broadcasted) their motherboards don't seem to be going anywhere in this area. I wonder how much the motherboard dept. of Intel hate the chipset dept. for saying stuff like this =) (Assuming it's not all contracted out) > Today's typical system has at least 100 MB/s memory bandwidth and many > systems have over 200 MB/s memory bandwidth. Since when did that > become crappy? Well, there are systems out there with GB/s memory bandwidth.. High end ones at that, but if the useable bandwidth is so high then why does the BIOS POST take so long to check the memory ? -- Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 05:16:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA07943 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA07934 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id HAA01021; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:15:42 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704141215.HAA01021@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: from Alex Belits at "Apr 14, 97 01:34:35 am" To: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:15:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (This is getting argumentative, IMO, if you want to run Linux -- go do that. Time will tell, and it is best not to insult other's work. FreeBSD wouldn't be growing so quickly, getting so many migrations or doing so well if we were totally screwed up. :-)). > > > > attractive for commercial vendors than FreeBSD with its closed-group > > > attitude. > > > > > Please contribute -- we aren't closed. There is the issue of having > > quality control or not. We choose the former. > > With so many things under that quality control it looks inefficient on > ones that really need it. In Linux most important packages that are > present in all distributions, are quality-controlled by definitely > knowledgeable people, who handle them. Other things are handled by > distribution vendors. Sorry to mention it, I have yet to see Linux > distribution that had xterm using wtmp format from one version and the > rest of system from another. > Of course, FreeBSD has all of the above also, even though you are trying to speak of the quality of all of the Linux distributions, and I only need to speak of one. I think that I can be assured of what I am saying. Then they haven't had to change the wtmp format because of increasing the size of login id's. Simple, but unfortunate... That change was made as a result of user demands. > > > Actually, I find alot of #ifdef FreeBSD and configure's that work directly > > with FreeBSD. Much software works directly out of the box directly from > > the vendor/developer. > > Then why "port" it? And even if it doesn't why not to send those > "patches" to the original author? Will he support them worse? I don't > think, he will answer "I won't support FreeBSD, maintain patches to my > program yourself". At least, I can't imagine myself saying that. > Then why RPM it? :-). I am not sure that you know everything that goes on. > > You have the option of using the ports collection > > so that you have fewer problems or want to install directly out-of-the-box. > > This is not what I've seen. It installs things automatically. But I > never can be sure is the installed version even maintained now, not to > mention, is it the latest, or does the author support his own freebsd > port. > I don't understand what you are saying... I think what you are saying now is bogus. I can say the same thing about RPMs. The ports mechanism DOESN'T force you to install things automatically, you can install a port or not. This is getting very bogus. > > Note also that the CDROM contains the apps that can be freely redistributed > > (unlike certain Zmodem or Kermit distributions.) > > Linux distributions contain commercial software if the distribution > vendor supports that. > There are also commercial distributions on the FreeBSD disks... The question that I have is are all of the Linux distributors who might be sending off Kermit making an agreement with the authors? That license ain't GPL!!! That is the only reason that we don't have Kermit on our distribution, we really do look at licensing terms. > > > > Both Linux and FreeBSD change fast, although FreeBSD comes in one > > > monolithic distribution, and any attempt to get something fixed throws > > > user into -CURRENT (no pun intended but it seems appropriate) with all its > > > instability and experiments around. > > > > > Not true, 2.2.X is a new released codebase. It isn't -current. Things get > > fixed in the 2.2.X base. I wouldn't be suprised if 2.1.X is also still being > > supported for existing apps, on an as needed basis. > > by -current I mean -current, not 2.2.x. And stability of 2.2 could be > better, too. > This argument also makes no sense. If you don't want to do kernel or forward looking userland development then don't use -current. You are saying that if you want something fixed, you must use -current -- that is simply wrong. 2.2.X is going to be well supported for quite a while... > > Yes -- if you want to always keep up with OS development. Some people > like that, but most of them prefer to have something stable and do minimal > upgrades for functionality/security fixes, hardware changes and major OS > improvements. > Then don't use -current. Use the supported 2.2.X/2.1.X releases. > > > If vendors that now support Linux had > > > to switch to 2.1.x kernel just to keep with library changes I believe, > > > they had used OpenNT by now. > > > > > What about the users who have problems with the shared-libs of the > > week problem? > > No such problem. In Linux shared libraries change rarely, and > incompatible changes happen extremely rarely. Distributions are built with > new libraries and allow upgrades with at least less pain that FreeBSD > causes. Manual upgrades within major version number are mostly painless. > Sorry, but finding the right Linux shared lib is a right of passage to install new software. That is common knowlege, and my experience. All it takes is time to forage around for the shared lib, download it and install it :-). If you run a release on FreeBSD, we also support previous shared libs and Linux binaries. Of course, given what you want, DON'T RUN -CURRENT. There are individuals, medium sized companies, and very large companies with large installations who have no problems running -current... That simply requires that they support their own pseudo releases. However, if you want to run as an end-user only, and don't want to support anything, then DON'T RUN -CURRENT. There has been no release engineering done on the raw -current code. We do -current snapshots once in a while, and those are not meant as end user releases. > > Which version of Netscape > > Formally, Netscape Navigator Linux binary in form that is distributed at > Netscape FTP site is incompatible with all currently distributed Linux > libc versions. > Well, you are supporting my position on Linux shared lib coherency. Thanks for providing an anecdotal example :-). > > If you take programs in binaries and just copy them -- yes, you will > have that problem if program depends on things that changed. But those > programs mostly are distributed in sources. Again, I'm not talking about > major version number or features that never were announced as working in > "mainstream" distribution (such as mt-safe libc). > I am not either. I am talking about having to forage around for the "right" shared lib. You have to be ready to do that on Linux. > > > You mean a central group of people who are trying to maintain quality and > > branding (FreeBSD)? > > The way how it's done is a problem. "Ports" make things worse (don't > tell me that "ported" program has better quality than one, maintained by > the author). People are trying to be everything, and it's impossible. > Sorry, but core is 17 people, and the committers are currently approx 70. Too bad, but it does work and we are organized. Chaos doesn't make a release. I am sure that Red Hat spends lots of time trying to produce a release, and so does Debian, and so does Slackware, ad nauseum. Do you think that they will all make the same choices??? NOT!!! If they do, then why so many versions with the same Linux kernel? Please refer to the vendors who say: "This code is supported under VX.Y of the frobnotz Linux distribution with the VA.B of the Linux kernel" or somesuch. > > Or a bunch of distributions with a bunch of different > > combinations of shared libs and apps (and kernel versions, Linux)? > > Linux is more tolerant to versions changes of components because its > design assumes that things should remain compatible. It not always > allows fast improvement in the code but encourages upgrades when they are > necessary (ex: security fixes). And all distributions that I know, update > kernel/libraries simultaneously. > FreeBSD updates kernel/libraries/binaries simultaneously :-). Of course, sometimes on Linux or using Linux binaries on FreeBSD you have to forage around for the right shared libs :-). FreeBSD's security record isn't very bad, and we have alot of users who demand security. I don't know how your statement compares the two OSes -- FreeBSD does all of the above. Of course, how compatible is the binary environment between two different Linux kernel based distributions? There are alot of combinations to compare. > > > I prefer > > a coherent development path/group. It is pretty good that we have > > 70+- committers that can modify the tree directly, and don't have chaos. > > In fact, we are pretty well organized. > > "Organized" isn't always "good". And "you" are "organized" inside group > -- others just see that things randomly change without announce or > explanation. > Sorry, but an inside group of 17/70 people isn't too awful small. Of course, an inside group of 1 kernel owner IS an inside group. We do have a checks and balances system and organization which works very well. Of course, a kernel doesn't make an OS -- it is mostly a scaffolding for programs. So, Linux has an interesting situation -- a kernel that is controlled by one person under a commercially undesirable license, and LOTS and LOTS of distributions with different configurations. FreeBSD has a single kernel with a single distribution. We do have different releases that we distinguish, but the situation is simple for vendors. So much for branding. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 05:33:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA08563 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA08558 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id HAA01059; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:33:38 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704141233.HAA01059@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <199704141215.HAA01021@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Apr 14, 97 07:15:42 am" To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:33:37 -0500 (EST) Cc: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, toor@dyson.iquest.net, jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (This is getting argumentative, IMO, if you want to run Linux -- go > do that. Time will tell, and it is best not to insult other's work. > FreeBSD wouldn't be growing so quickly, getting so many migrations > or doing so well if we were totally screwed up. :-)). > BTW, I have not been trying to put Linux down. I do think that it isn't a good idea to dismiss the success of FreeBSD. I would really like to hear about real FreeBSD weaknesses so we can continue to work on them. I love constructive criticism!!! I am kind of intolerant and tired of condemnation. Linux does have some weaknesses, and so does FreeBSD. Let's concentrate on what can/should be done, as opposed to wasting time on religious issues. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 05:37:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA08859 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA08854 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA03850; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:36:36 -0700 (PDT) To: Alex Belits cc: "John S. Dyson" , jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:34:35 PDT." Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 05:36:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3847.861021396@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I find this entire thread to have reached the "extremely useless" stage. Perhaps we should just call it a draw and all go home? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 06:01:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA09799 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA09792 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA04019; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:01:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Bielicki cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How is the stability of >SMP ??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:24:31 +0300." <19970414132431.17367@linkdesign.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:01:22 -0700 Message-ID: <4016.861022882@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Has anybody experience with the SMP kernel and how stable is it ??? Well... > I want to recommend it to a customer for running a heavily packed national ro uter in eastern europe. So it has to be at least as stable as a CISCO 7200 :))) Nowhere near that stable. Don't recommend it. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 06:05:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA10002 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA09997 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id OAA25773; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:15:03 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199704141215.OAA25773@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: file i/o from device driver? To: dufault@hda.com (Peter Dufault) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:15:03 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, dyson@root.org In-Reply-To: <199704141055.GAA09057@hda.hda.com> from "Peter Dufault" at Apr 14, 97 06:55:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > We have a couple of video capture drivers and was wondering what would it > > take to pass a file handle to a driver so it can write the captured frames > > to a file? > > IMHO: You don't want to do that. You want some way of > synchronizing between a capturer and a logger. the meteor driver has such a mechanism, it can acquire a bunch of frames in a region of mmapped memory, and issues a signal to the controlling process at every frame or when a low water mark is exceeded (I believe). I assume the same can work (if it is not already there) in the bktr driver (the ones amancio was referring to were /dev/meteor and /dev/bktr). Note that the above procedure needs data to be copied (when the logger process issues the write()), some as it happens for "cp" which reads the file using mmap, but does the write explicitly. Perhaps it would be nice to have a method (in mmap() ?) such that the page is read from the source and then passed directly to the sink bypassing the copy. In other words, deep down write(), when a page has a certain flag set (READONLY ?), when the page is in core, it is locked and passed to the low level routines without copying ? Cheers Luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 06:16:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA10698 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA10693 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA09362; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:17:46 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:17:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits Reply-To: Alex Belits To: "John S. Dyson" cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <199704141215.HAA01021@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > (This is getting argumentative, IMO, if you want to run Linux -- go > do that. Time will tell, and it is best not to insult other's work. I am using both Linux and FreeBSD and really don't need anyone's recommendations for both. > FreeBSD wouldn't be growing so quickly, getting so many migrations > or doing so well if we were totally screwed up. :-)). If all development was screwed up there will be no result at all. [skipped] > > distribution that had xterm using wtmp format from one version and the > > rest of system from another. > > > Of course, FreeBSD has all of the above also, even though you are trying > to speak of the quality of all of the Linux distributions, Quality differs. But all of them are consistent and based on the same kernel, libc and base utilities. Slackware has BSD-like init scripts and Red Hat has SysV ones (the same SysV-like init itself in both), utilities differ and packaging systems are completely different -- that doesn't make different OS. > and I only need > to speak of one. So what? > I think that I can be assured of what I am saying. > Then they haven't had to change the wtmp format because of increasing > the size of login id's. Simple, but unfortunate... That change was > made as a result of user demands. Change is ok, inconsistent "quality-controlled" distribution isn't. > > > Actually, I find alot of #ifdef FreeBSD and configure's that work directly > > > with FreeBSD. Much software works directly out of the box directly from > > > the vendor/developer. > > > > Then why "port" it? And even if it doesn't why not to send those > > "patches" to the original author? Will he support them worse? I don't > > think, he will answer "I won't support FreeBSD, maintain patches to my > > program yourself". At least, I can't imagine myself saying that. > > > Then why RPM it? :-). I am not sure that you know everything that > goes on. RPMs 1. often maintained by authors, 2. never contain patches for original sources, 3. don't FTP sources, 4. support dependencies, 5. part of Red Hat distribution. [skipped] > I don't understand what you are saying... I think what you are saying > now is bogus. I can say the same thing about RPMs. The ports > mechanism DOESN'T force you to install things automatically, you can install a > port or not. This is getting very bogus. Install or not. Nice. Linux users at least maintain distribution sites with original sources, be it something written specifically for Linux, ported and maintained by author or ported (and maintained) by someone else, but at least it's clear what was posted when and who is maintaining that and where (lsm entries). It may look completely chaotic and "unmanageable", but it works. Distributions allow more "controlled" way to get the same software, and they are maintained by their vendors not based on blindly copied "ports collection" but on original authors sources. Commercial vendors, obviously, like RPM system better, too. > > > Note also that the CDROM contains the apps that can be freely redistributed > > > (unlike certain Zmodem or Kermit distributions.) > > > > Linux distributions contain commercial software if the distribution > > vendor supports that. > > > There are also commercial distributions on the FreeBSD disks... The question > that I have is are all of the Linux distributors who might be sending > off Kermit making an agreement with the authors? That license ain't > GPL!!! That is the only reason that we don't have Kermit on our distribution, > we really do look at licensing terms. Linux distributions aren't GPL'ed, and I believe that distributors don't violate licenses. This is an advantage of having more than one "allowed" distribution -- commercial vendors can include their products on some. [skipped] > > by -current I mean -current, not 2.2.x. And stability of 2.2 could be > > better, too. > > > This argument also makes no sense. If you don't want to do kernel or forward > looking userland development then don't use -current. You are saying that > if you want something fixed, you must use -current -- that is simply wrong. > 2.2.X is going to be well supported for quite a while... For now it has problems that aren't fixed anywhere but in -current. Or not fixed anywhere. And upgrades are "everything or nothing". [skipped] > > new libraries and allow upgrades with at least less pain that FreeBSD > > causes. Manual upgrades within major version number are mostly painless. > > > Sorry, but finding the right Linux shared lib is a right of passage to > install new software. That is common knowlege, and my experience. If some _really_ old version survived major kernel upgrade - yes. But it isn't supposed to. [skipped] > > > Which version of Netscape > > > > Formally, Netscape Navigator Linux binary in form that is distributed at > > Netscape FTP site is incompatible with all currently distributed Linux > > libc versions. > > > Well, you are supporting my position on Linux shared lib coherency. Thanks for > providing an anecdotal example :-). It's an example of broken program that still works because only malloc was broken. Where have they found original library, and did that binary ever work with java at Netscape is still a mystery for me. > > If you take programs in binaries and just copy them -- yes, you will > > have that problem if program depends on things that changed. But those > > programs mostly are distributed in sources. Again, I'm not talking about > > major version number or features that never were announced as working in > > "mainstream" distribution (such as mt-safe libc). > > > I am not either. I am talking about having to forage around for the > "right" shared lib. You have to be ready to do that on Linux. Why I never had that problem? [skipped] > Sorry, but core is 17 people, and the committers are currently approx > 70. Too bad, but it does work and we are organized. Chaos doesn't make a > release. I am sure that Red Hat spends lots of time trying to produce a > release, and so does Debian, and so does Slackware, ad nauseum. Do you think > that they will all make the same choices??? NOT!!! If they do, then > why so many versions with the same Linux kernel? I don't understand it. Because different vendors make them. Or you mean that simultaneously released distributions have _different_ kernel versions? > Please refer to > the vendors who say: "This code is supported under VX.Y of the > frobnotz Linux distribution with the VA.B of the Linux kernel" or somesuch. But vendors for some reason produce software for Linux. And it works on distributions other than one, that software was originally shipped with, too. Why? Maybe, differences between distributions are umm... exaggerated? > > > Or a bunch of distributions with a bunch of different > > > combinations of shared libs and apps (and kernel versions, Linux)? > > > > Linux is more tolerant to versions changes of components because its > > design assumes that things should remain compatible. It not always > > allows fast improvement in the code but encourages upgrades when they are > > necessary (ex: security fixes). And all distributions that I know, update > > kernel/libraries simultaneously. > > > FreeBSD updates kernel/libraries/binaries simultaneously :-). Of course, > sometimes on Linux or using Linux binaries on FreeBSD you have to forage > around for the right shared libs :-). FreeBSD's security record isn't very > bad, Currently the same as Linux one. With all "uncontrolled" things, I remember how I applied buffer-overflow patches to mostly the same things on both systems. > and we have alot of users who demand security. I don't know how your > statement compares the two OSes -- FreeBSD does all of the above. Of > course, how compatible is the binary environment between two different > Linux kernel based distributions? There are alot of combinations to > compare. Kernel/libc combination is the same -- they are "controlled" at least as good as FreeBSD ones. Packages, maintained "outside" as a whole, like XF86, are included simultaneously, too. init scripts, cron/bind/sendmail/lpd/perl and set of different Emacs versions differ though. [skipped] > Sorry, but an inside group of 17/70 people isn't too awful small. Of course, > an inside group of 1 kernel owner IS an inside group. We do have a > checks and balances system and organization which works very well. Of > course, a kernel doesn't make an OS -- it is mostly a scaffolding for > programs. So, Linux has an interesting situation -- a kernel that is > controlled by one person under a commercially undesirable license, and > LOTS and LOTS of distributions with different configurations. > FreeBSD has a single kernel with a single distribution. We do have > different releases that we distinguish, but the situation is simple > for vendors. > > So much for branding. How 4front-tech makes OSS without trouble from such horrible thing as GPL'ed kernel... -- Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 06:49:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA13404 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:49:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13396 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05017; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:48:54 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:48:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199704141348.IAA05017@plains.nodak.edu> To: hutton@ISI.EDU, yves@CC.McGill.CA Subject: Re: ATM adapters Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > there are FreeBSD ATM adapter drivers....specifically, for the Adaptec and > Efficient cards. There was some initial interest from the Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc (MCSI), under their participation in MAGIC, to release their running FreeBSD 2.2 version of their Host ATM Research Platform (HARP) software. They said to have support for the FORE PCA200E adapters and possibily supporting the Efficient adapters also. (information from -hacker email Feb 97). --mark. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 06:53:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA13979 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13965 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id IAA01229; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:52:58 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704141352.IAA01229@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: from Alex Belits at "Apr 14, 97 06:17:45 am" To: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:52:58 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If all development was screwed up there will be no result at all. > But it isn't, so this line of argument doesn't mean anything. > > > Of course, FreeBSD has all of the above also, even though you are trying > > to speak of the quality of all of the Linux distributions, > > Quality differs. But all of them are consistent and based on the same > kernel, libc and base utilities. Slackware has BSD-like init scripts and > Red Hat has SysV ones (the same SysV-like init itself in both), utilities > differ and packaging systems are completely different -- that doesn't make > different OS. > To me, an OS isn't a kernel. A kernel is a smallish but critical part of an OS. > > I think that I can be assured of what I am saying. > > Then they haven't had to change the wtmp format because of increasing > > the size of login id's. Simple, but unfortunate... That change was > > made as a result of user demands. > > Change is ok, inconsistent "quality-controlled" distribution isn't. > Well, so what is wrong? I haven't had any trouble with XFree86 V3.2 or V3.2A (and I am running a -current kernel.) Also, I am running a terrible mishmash of various utilities of questional vintage (geesh, I ran FreeBSD V1.1/386BSD binaries will into the 2.0 timeframes.) Note that those were almost TOTALLY different kernels. Of course, I think that we can still run many Linux binaries (without any filesystem size/ shape restrictions) from that vintage also. > > RPMs 1. often maintained by authors, 2. never contain patches for > original sources, 3. don't FTP sources, 4. support dependencies, 5. part > of Red Hat distribution. > Oh, ONE of the Linux kernel based OS distributions? Which ones support it, and which ones don't? > > that I have is are all of the Linux distributors who might be sending > > off Kermit making an agreement with the authors? That license ain't > > GPL!!! That is the only reason that we don't have Kermit on our distribution, > > we really do look at licensing terms. > > Linux distributions aren't GPL'ed, and I believe that distributors don't > violate licenses. This is an advantage of having more than one "allowed" > distribution -- commercial vendors can include their products on some. > I am saying that Kermit isn't GPL'ed and we have looked into redistributing it, thereby abiding by the Copyright/license terms, to no avail. > > For now it has problems that aren't fixed anywhere but in -current. Or > not fixed anywhere. And upgrades are "everything or nothing". > Please send-pr. 2.2 isn't that different from -current that problems can't be fixed easily. BTW, I regularly bring in a new kernel or specific userland pieces with little or no trouble. There is a difference between upgrade and release... And it is good on FreeBSD that you CAN have access to every version of every program for the cost of maintaining a fairly low overhead (if you are really in business), CVS tree. > > > Sorry, but finding the right Linux shared lib is a right of passage to > > install new software. That is common knowlege, and my experience. > > If some _really_ old version survived major kernel upgrade - yes. But it > isn't supposed to. > Nor is it really a problem on released versions of FreeBSD. It still is a mix and match user-version control game on Linux. That is an obvious management issue. > > It's an example of broken program that still works because only malloc > was broken. Where have they found original library, and did that binary > ever work with java at Netscape is still a mystery for me. > Again, it is an example of an interesting behavior, that the blind users of Linux (like me) who have to deal with the problem by foraging around for libraries. > > > Sorry, but core is 17 people, and the committers are currently approx > > 70. Too bad, but it does work and we are organized. Chaos doesn't make a > > release. I am sure that Red Hat spends lots of time trying to produce a > > release, and so does Debian, and so does Slackware, ad nauseum. Do you think > > that they will all make the same choices??? NOT!!! If they do, then > > why so many versions with the same Linux kernel? > > I don't understand it. Because different vendors make them. Or you mean > that simultaneously released distributions have _different_ kernel > versions? > Userlands are different, and a kernel doesn't an OS make :-). > > > Please refer to > > the vendors who say: "This code is supported under VX.Y of the > > frobnotz Linux distribution with the VA.B of the Linux kernel" or somesuch. > > But vendors for some reason produce software for Linux. And it works on > distributions other than one, that software was originally shipped with, > too. Why? Maybe, differences between distributions are umm... exaggerated? > Likewise, the binaries often work well with FreeBSD -- so the alleged insufficiency of FreeBSD with respect to Linux might be bogus? FreeBSD might run Linux binaries better than some versions of Linux kernels. Again, the issue comes down mimicking or dealing with the differing userlands, given the same kernel versions. Of course, kernel versions are not always the same -- so you have different "features." > > > FreeBSD updates kernel/libraries/binaries simultaneously :-). Of course, > > sometimes on Linux or using Linux binaries on FreeBSD you have to forage > > around for the right shared libs :-). FreeBSD's security record isn't very > > bad, > > Currently the same as Linux one. With all "uncontrolled" things, I > remember how I applied buffer-overflow patches to mostly the same things > on both systems. > So our development doesn't appear to break anything with respect to Linux. There is no proof of any points here. All this demonstrates is that there is an emphasis that appeared at roughly the same time in both some of the Linux distributions (of course, which ones have done the fixes?) and FreeBSD. Each also responds differently to threats (e.g. ping-of-death.) > > Kernel/libc combination is the same -- they are "controlled" at least > as good as FreeBSD ones. Packages, maintained "outside" as a whole, like > XF86, are included simultaneously, too. init scripts, > cron/bind/sendmail/lpd/perl and set of different Emacs versions differ > though. > Which distributions, again? What distinguishes the distributions, and why are they so fragmented? What is the reason for so many versions? Can't they "just get along :-)". > > How 4front-tech makes OSS without trouble from such horrible thing > as GPL'ed kernel... > They are adding only a driver. Even though the kernel was originally GPLed, there was an after the fact exclusion of certain interfaces that allowed something like LGPL or other, more free and liberal terms to be enforced instead. The Linux kernel appears to have a mishmash of both GPL, LGPL, and free. These cause problems (especially mashed together) in certain situations (in which I am interested.) John From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 07:08:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA15418 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15390 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA29945; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970414100629.00b4a100@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:06:32 -0400 To: jbryant@tfs.net From: dennis Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 10:13 PM 4/13/97 -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: >In reply: >> At 06:27 PM 4/13/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >> >> >> >> The problem with funding fundamentals like networking is that some >> banana with >> >> a different philosophy is likely to either undo your changes or make other >> >> changes >> >> that compromise it. You'd have to maintain it yourself to make it >> worthwhile. >> >> >> >That is where the core team management comes in. A coherent core team >> >allows for review and the backing out of bogus changes. >> >> *coherent* is one thing....having a focus is another (theres that word >> again!). Since >> there is no clear goal, the future is a fog, which makes Freebsd >> undesirable in >> the long run for major endeavors. >> >> db > >[retreiveing two cents from pocket and tossing it into the hat] > >This is exactly the kind of bs discussion that has kept US from going >out and getting commercial support for FreeBSD... > >Case in point... Lin[s]ux... Ten-Twenty different versions, bad >networking, even worse VM... Vendors love it!! Why? Hmmmm... Because you are very wrong. There are hardly any commercial vendors with kernel drivers...virtually all of the hardware is non-vendor created and I promise you....vendors DONT love it. I hate it myself. Cyclades and ET are pretty much it. Linux has more commercial applications because a LOT MORE PEOPLE use it (which if you check my original list was #1). If you dont create a market for commercial vendors they will not come, if you do they will, registry or not. Its very simple. db From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 07:09:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA15656 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15530 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA29969; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970414100835.00b44700@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:08:38 -0400 To: "David S. Miller" , jbryant@tfs.net From: dennis Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:41 PM 4/13/97 -0400, David S. Miller wrote: > From: Jim Bryant > Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:31 -0500 (CDT) > > Case in point... Lin[s]ux... > [ ... ] > bad networking, even worse VM... > >Care to back these claims up with factual information? I've studied >both FreeBSD's and Linux's vm/net subsystems at great length, and I >would love to know what I might have overlooked during my studies. Any second year CS student can tell that the networking code is crap just by looking at it. 'Can't say I know much about the VM subsystem though. db From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 07:17:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA16498 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA16486 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA00375; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:05:44 +0800 (WST) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:05:43 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: Michael Bielicki Subject: Re: How is the stability of >SMP ??? In-Reply-To: <4016.861022882@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Has anybody experience with the SMP kernel and how stable is it ??? > > Well... > > > I want to recommend it to a customer for running a heavily packed national ro > uter in eastern europe. So it has to be at least as stable as a CISCO 7200 :))) > > Nowhere near that stable. Don't recommend it. :-) > > Jordan > IMHO it would definitely NOT be a good thing if you want something to be a router and it has to "be as stable as a cisco 7200" :) -- Adrian Chadd | UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ... | (also known as the Good, the bad and the | ugly..) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 07:26:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA17125 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oskar.nanoteq.co.za (oskar.nanoteq.co.za [163.195.220.170]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17114 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rbezuide@localhost) by oskar.nanoteq.co.za (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23098 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:25:39 +0200 (SAT) From: Reinier Bezuidenhout Message-Id: <199704141425.QAA23098@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Subject: route - core dump -mtu To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:25:39 +0200 (SAT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi there .... After having some mtu problems on a network and having had to play around with route mtu, I came across an argument bug in route.c This seems to be in 2.1.7.1 ass well as in 2.2.1 and my guess would be 3.0 too. route change default a.b.c.d -mtu without specifying an mtu value causes a segmentation fault. I added the following check to the source of 2.1.7.1 to check for the mtu value. I'm not sure if one should do bounds checking too, i.e. "-mtu -200" which is illegal :) I think :) Here follows the diff -c of the route.c file *** route.c Mon Apr 14 15:40:38 1997 --- route.c.old Mon Apr 14 15:40:30 1997 *************** *** 499,509 **** rt_metrics.rmx_locks |= flag; if (locking) locking = 0; - if (value == NULL) { - errno = EINVAL; - quit("must specify metric"); - } - *valp = atoi(value); } --- 499,504 ---- Greeting Reinier From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 07:31:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA17433 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17428 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00216; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970414102948.00b3a410@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:29:50 -0400 To: Christoph Haas From: dennis Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 10:35 AM 4/14/97 +0200, Christoph Haas wrote: >On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >> YOU dont understand marketing. You make something *expensive* by >> adding value. Companies that have cheap products (ie some of my >> competitors) do so because they can't or dont know how to add >> value. "dumping" products into the free market is a last resort, when >> you fail to compete in the value-added market. > >SCO's Free OpenServer comes to midn ;-) > >> If this is what you are >> hoping for then you are resigned to mediocrity. The purpose of >> attracting commercial vendor SHOULD be to get quality products... >> not junk. FreeBSD is loaded with junk already. You should want >> supported products...not basic drivers supported by some guy in >> the urals who has a 50 hr a week commitment elsewhere and fixes >> stuff only when his wife and kids are at grandmas. > >To come back to my original question: How do you want to attract vendors >and convince them that FreeBSD is a high quality product ? My idea, >starting with some kind of support for vendors, doesn't semm to make it >here, so where are those great ideas ?? You attract them by creating a market for them. Commercial vendors are driven by profit, and if the market is small it is difficult to recover your investment. Providing vendors with support for a product that has limited market will not do much....and as I said before if it is profitable to support freebsd then vendors will use whats already available (ie, the hackers list) to support it. db From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 07:31:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA17456 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17451 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA00395; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:19:00 +0800 (WST) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:18:59 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Alex Belits cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk God I love a good religious battle, don't you? I agree with Jordan - this is getting quite out of hand. Just remember people - Linux is *NOT* an Operating system in itself. FreeBSD *IS* because when you get FreeBSD you get the kernel, binaries, sources, man pages, blah blah blah. Linux isn't like that. The Linux operating system comes about when you install particular distribution. Linux is more flexible, which I think contributes to its success. Someone said "hey, I don't like how thats done, so lets do it differently", and out comes a distribution. People have that choice. Please, this isn't a "My OS is better/bigger than your OS" discussion/arguement/whatnot, and I think its delved a lot more off the original thread. Both linux and FreeBSD have their good and bad points, and unless you are going to constructively point them out, don't say anything. -- Adrian Chadd | UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ... | (also known as the Good, the bad and the | ugly..) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 07:32:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA17654 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (root@cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA17649 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [205.252.122.1]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA08763 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [205.252.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA13843 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:32:13 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:31:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: floppy disks Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am having trouble with my disk drives, or actually, I've always had trouble, but I can't ignore it anymore (I've reached my maximum irritation level). I looked around my documentation, and although I've lots of info on how they work software-wise, I've little on the hardware interfacing. My problem is most easily explained by an example from DOS. I put a floppy into the drive, do a DIR. I take that floppy out, put another one in, then do another DIR. I get the listing from the first disk. The only way to get it to update is to remove the floppy completely, do the DIR, let it time out, and then reinsert the floppy (the new DIR gives results for the new floppy inserted). Somehow, changing floppies isn't detected. I figure (since I built both my systems myself) that I've caused this, but I don't know if the trouble lies in the floppy, cable, or motherboard. I have VOM/pulse catcher, I can probe the bus, but no docs on what I should see. If anyone could help, or at least tell me what I ought to buy to read to figure this out, I'd appreciate it. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 07:36:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA18074 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18069 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 07:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00282; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970414103521.00a94320@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:35:24 -0400 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:12 AM 4/14/97 +0200, J Wunsch wrote: >As dennis wrote: > >(I didn't really wanna participate here, and this will probably be my >only mail in this thread.) > >> FreeBSD is loaded with junk already. You should want >> supported products...not basic drivers supported by some guy in >> the urals who has a 50 hr a week commitment elsewhere and fixes >> stuff only when his wife and kids are at grandmas. > >The junk is not at crucial parts of the system. Things like ft(4) or >aic(4) (yeah, my most favourite examples) simply haven't been removed >since users are still using them. But, etinc.com doesn't have to rely >on a crappy floppy tape driver. > >The heavy parts of the system _are_ maintained, and we make it fairly [snip] aggreed. I understand this...i didnt suspect that you want commercial vendors to maintain network or vm subsystems. I was referring to add-ons..... For example, it would be *cool* if some vendor that used the DEC 21040 chip (or DEC itself) would help maintain the de driver as a matter of policy (rather than as a sidebar for Matt)...they sell enough chips into the FreeBSD market to justify it. Dennis Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 08:10:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA19573 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19519 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem10.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.40]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA28266; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:10:59 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3351E8C9.5DD2@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:20:25 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jbryant@tfs.net CC: dennis , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jim Bryant wrote: > > > [retreiveing two cents from pocket and tossing it into the hat] > > This is exactly the kind of bs discussion that has kept US from going > out and getting commercial support for FreeBSD... > > Case in point... Lin[s]ux... Ten-Twenty different versions, bad > networking, even worse VM... Vendors love it!! Why? Hmmmm... > I was discussing a similar issue the other day with Richard Stallman (he also asked me to say GNU-Linux when referring to Linux). I was commenting how Caldera is killing Linux by effectively closing it's development: you cannot ftp Caldera's OpenLinux and most of the commercial applications want to have an OpenLinux license. We both agreed that if people don't support free software we will be left with the same situation UNIX has suffered: a big number of incompatible versions with fixes from different vendors. All-in-all Linux´s license was specifically designed to avoid this situation. Our license is much more attractive for commercial vendors, and strangely we don't have that problem. I believe Linux acceptance was a matter of timing. In those days ATT wanted to own an OS that the public needed. The only winners after the legal suit were Microsoft and in a lesser scale Linux. Some vendors say they prefer Linux because there is bigger support on the net and there are more books on Linux...Well I don't feel like baby-sitting anyway. I like the things how they are now, after all....one small group of committers can work in a more organized way, without the pressure of bazillion "Microsofted" users that think an OS depends only on it's GUI. Everything seems to show that we can emulate Linux better than Caldera does and that knowledgeable people will turn to FreeBSD when the time comes. In the end, Linux is a toyland where hackers can explore possibilities that will feed FreeBSD sooner or later. One thing I have clear, though, is that if commercial vendors of FreeBSD products win we also win, so ...the idea of a commercial vendors registry is good (and we also need to control them somehow :-)). Let's leave the discusion of FreeBSD's development vs. amount of commercial followers closed...OK? > > I have ran FreeBSD since 1.1.5.1, and still say it is the best > available on PC's... Yes it is work in progress... The only > program/operating system that is not work in progress is the one that > just got degaussed... > When I first knew FreeBSD (2.0.5) it was considered a networking box. If you wanted something for human use, Linux was a more recommendable option. This gap has closed significantly due to the excellent ports collection and the strong CD distribution. The only thing that speaks bad of us is that Linux became multiplatform first, when we had an excellent example to follow ! Pedro. > I sure as h*ll don't hear no fat lady singing the demise of FreeBSD... > > > Jim > -- > All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, > think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or > radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" > jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 08:18:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA20119 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [139.23.36.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20114 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from salomon.mchp.siemens.de (salomon.siemens.de [139.23.33.13]) by david.siemens.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24308 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:13:29 +0200 (MDT) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (1@curry.mchp.siemens.de [146.180.31.23]) by salomon.mchp.siemens.de (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA06935 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:18:21 +0200 (MDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02763 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:18:19 +0200 (MET DST) From: Andre Albsmeier Message-Id: <199704141518.RAA06336@curry.mchp.siemens.de> Subject: Re: mbuf clusters problem in 2.2.1R In-Reply-To: <199704111115.PAA11170@sinbin.demos.su> from "Alex G. Bulushev" at "Apr 11, 97 03:15:42 pm" To: bag@sinbin.demos.su (Alex G. Bulushev) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:18:09 +0200 (CEST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > we use p6-200 with two 3940UW and fxp (100baseT fullduplex) 256M RAM > under fbsd 2.2.1R > > system reboots once per 2-6 days with out of mbuf clusters diagnostic > on console ... we use maxusers=256 without any effect, then we > increase NMBCLUSTERS to 8192 and then to 12288 with the same effect ... > > while working, number of allocated mbuf clusters permanently increase > (some mbufs not freeing?) and then system crashed ... > > this effect exists only on system with big network traffic ... > now we run: > squid - up to 200 connection simultaneously > ircd - up to 50 connection > cvsupd ... I have got similar weird things.i I often see this in the logfiles: Apr 11 13:07:28 server kern.info /kernel: nfsd send error 55 Apr 11 13:07:28 server last message repeated 719 times Apr 11 13:07:28 server kern.err /kernel: Out of mbuf clusters - increase maxusers! Apr 11 13:07:28 server kern.info /kernel: nfsd send error 55 Apr 11 13:07:28 server last message repeated 21 times Apr 11 13:07:28 server kern.crit /kernel: 55 Apr 11 13:07:28 server kern.info /kernel: nfsd send error 55 Apr 11 13:07:28 server last message repeated 743 times Apr 11 13:07:29 server kern.crit /kernel: 55 Apr 11 13:07:29 server kern.info /kernel: nfsd send error 55 Apr 11 13:07:29 server last message repeated 743 times >From time to time the machine reboots without any other messages or console errors. This only appears on a machine with 3 network cards and heavy net traffic. What I found curiuos is the line: /kernel: 55. I have changed kernel options, network cards, memory, motherboard, ... no change. This is a 2.2.1 system which serves a lot of PCs. During the night everything is sane but when the PCs are running the dmesg fills with "nfsd send error 55" and occasionaly crashes occur. I have no clue where to start or what to change... -Andre From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 08:40:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21537 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA21502 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from East.Sun.COM ([129.148.1.241]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id IAA23255; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:46:16 -0700 Received: from suneast.East.Sun.COM by East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id LAA20162; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:38:45 -0400 Received: from compound.east.sun.com by suneast.East.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA08435; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:38:44 -0400 Received: (from alk@localhost) by compound.east.sun.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA02603; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:39:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:39:11 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM Message-Id: <199704141539.KAA02603@compound.east.sun.com> From: Tony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry X-Face: O9M"E%K;(f-Go/XDxL+pCxI5*gr[=FN@Y`cl1.Tn Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Quoth J Wunsch on Mon, 14 April: : : So what? Do you want us to remove these drivers? : It would seem sensible to move decaying software into a separate distribution system, a la ports, were there sufficient reason to motivate the effort. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 08:55:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22704 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com (gatekeeper.ray.com [138.125.162.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22699 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:55:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.res.ray.com Received: (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26739; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:56:13 -0400 Received: from jaguar.nmc.ed.ray.com by gatekeeper.ray.com; Mon Apr 14 11:53:54 1997 Received: from ccmail.res.ray.com (CCRT15.ED.RAY.COM) by jaguar.nmc.ed.ray.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-DNI) id AA08658; Mon, 14 Apr 97 11:53:29 EDT Received: from ccMail by ccmail.res.ray.com (SMTPLINK V2.11) id AA861044057; Mon, 14 Apr 97 11:10:41 EDT Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 11:10:41 EDT Encoding: 33 Text Message-Id: <9703148610.AA861044057@ccmail.res.ray.com> To: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu, Michael Smith Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re[2]: dropped packet on de0 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk on 2.1.0 ping -l loses most of its packets when the socketbuffer gets filled up. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: dropped packet on de0 Author: Michael Smith at SMTP Date: 4/12/97 12:02 AM John-Mark Gurney stands accused of saying: > Michael Smith scribbled this message on Apr 11: > > ping -f only sends at 100 packets/second; try 'ping -l 100000' to get > > ping to really push, or use one of the TCP throughput testing programs > > in the ports collection. > > not acording to the man page: > -f Flood ping. Outputs packets as fast as they come back or one > hundred times per second, whichever is more. For every Sorry, right answer on my part, but wrong logic. Ping -f waits for an answer to each packet before it sends the next one, to a maximum of 10ms, so it will never fill the output queue. Ping -l on the other hand just sends like crazy. > John-Mark -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 08:58:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22967 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22954 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA28512; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:26:52 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704141556.BAA28512@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: floppy disks In-Reply-To: from Chuck Robey at "Apr 14, 97 10:31:46 am" To: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net (Chuck Robey) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:26:52 +0930 (CST) Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey stands accused of saying: > > My problem is most easily explained by an example from DOS. I put a > floppy into the drive, do a DIR. I take that floppy out, put another one > in, then do another DIR. I get the listing from the first disk. The > only way to get it to update is to remove the floppy completely, do the > DIR, let it time out, and then reinsert the floppy (the new DIR gives > results for the new floppy inserted). Somehow, changing floppies isn't > detected. Sounds like your drive isn't asserting the diskchange signal correctly. > I figure (since I built both my systems myself) that I've caused this, > but I don't know if the trouble lies in the floppy, cable, or > motherboard. I have VOM/pulse catcher, I can probe the bus, but no docs > on what I should see. Hmm, my memory is a tad rusty here, but there was a time when nobody was agreeing on whether it was pin 2 or 32 that was the diskchange signal. Some vendors (eg. Atari) used to read the write-protect signal instead (and got tripped up by drive's that masked it with the disk-present sensor), but I would start by checking that pins 2 and 32 make it from the drive back to your controller, and if the floppy drive(s) are more than a year or two old, see if there's a "DC" jumper you can play with on them. > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 09:02:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23307 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23263 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA28550; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:31:17 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704141601.BAA28550@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Re[2]: dropped packet on de0 In-Reply-To: <9703148610.AA861044057@ccmail.res.ray.com> from "Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.res.ray.com" at "Apr 14, 97 11:10:41 am" To: Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.res.ray.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:31:17 +0930 (CST) Cc: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gregory_D_Moncreaff@ccmail.res.ray.com stands accused of saying: > on 2.1.0 ping -l loses most of its packets when the socketbuffer > gets filled up. Yeeeees, this _was_ what the original poster _wanted_. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 09:10:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23932 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaut.de (inet.plaut.de [194.39.177.166]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA23909 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from totum.plaut.de (totum.plaut.de [194.39.177.9]) by plaut.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA05754; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:08:34 +0200 Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by totum.plaut.de (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA02763; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:08:36 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:08:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Michael Reifenberger To: Joerg Wunsch cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <19970414091216.YL45051@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:12:16 +0200 > From: J Wunsch > Reply-To: Joerg Wunsch > To: hackers@FreeBSD.org > Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry > ... > The junk is not at crucial parts of the system. Things like ft(4) or > aic(4) (yeah, my most favourite examples) simply haven't been removed ^^^^^^ > I had not too many problems so far. I even can backup my funky Win95-Laptop using the PAO disks and: /dev/rwd0 -> dd -> gzip -> PCMCIA/SCSI -> JAZ BTW: It's the most reliable Win95-Backup. Bye! ---- Michael Reifenberger Plaut Software GmbH, R/3 Basis From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 09:44:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26341 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA26321 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from 0@skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.0.19] with ESMTP id UAA22498; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:43:30 +0400 Received: by skraldespand.demos.su id UAA22556; (8.8.5/D) Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:43:55 +0400 (MSD) Message-Id: <199704141643.UAA22556@skraldespand.demos.su> Subject: Re: mbuf clusters problem in 2.2.1R In-Reply-To: <199704141518.RAA06336@curry.mchp.siemens.de> from "Andre Albsmeier" at "Apr 14, 97 05:18:09 pm" X-ELM-OSV: (Our standard violations) no-mime=1; no-hdr-encoding=1 To: Andre.Albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (Andre Albsmeier) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:43:55 +0400 (MSD) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" X-Class: Fast Organization: Demos Company, Ltd. Reply-To: mishania@demos.su X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > we use p6-200 with two 3940UW and fxp (100baseT fullduplex) 256M RAM > > under fbsd 2.2.1R > Apr 11 13:07:28 server kern.err /kernel: Out of mbuf clusters - increase maxusers! > >From time to time the machine reboots without any other messages or > console errors. This only appears on a machine with 3 network cards To try to make situation be a bit more clear: We don't have nfs/nfsd at all, so that shouldn't be the culprit. Our box is definetely highly loaded, and imvho, it is being caused by the situation, when mbuf clusters are not released after were used once. > -Andre -mishania From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 10:21:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00289 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00263 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA00282 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wGp5K-0007Kl-00; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:58:30 -0600 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:10:05 +0200." <19970414121005.VV52872@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <19970414121005.VV52872@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970414091216.YL45051@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:58:30 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <19970414121005.VV52872@uriah.heep.sax.de> J Wunsch writes: : So what? Do you want us to remove these drivers? ******* NO ********** The aic driver works well enough on most of the hardware in question. Last time I noted bugs in it, I was politely asked to provide hardware for the effort since the main developers don't have hardware. I found it was easier for me to get a different card than to do this because I didn't wanna have to buy two of them. The aic driver now works better than it did at the time (I'm able to use the card from time to time). As long as it is baiscally working, there is no need to get rid of it. The NetBSD/OpenBSD one has just as many problems with the card that I have too, and others have confirmed this as well. None the less, the driver (at least aic) is close enough to working that it shoudl remain in the tree. It does work for some things and there are just some bugs in it (rather than it being hopelessly broken). Just my two cents. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 11:00:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02394 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02386 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id DAA29315; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:29:21 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704141759.DAA29315@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Apr 14, 97 10:58:30 am" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:29:20 +0930 (CST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > > The aic driver works well enough on most of the hardware in question. > Last time I noted bugs in it, I was politely asked to provide hardware > for the effort since the main developers don't have hardware. I found > it was easier for me to get a different card than to do this because I > didn't wanna have to buy two of them. Damn; I have one of these cards, and I could have gotten it to germany or possibly the USA for free. If someone is serious about wanting one (an Adaptec AHA-1510), let me know and I'll see what I can do. > Warner -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 11:06:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02845 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02840 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA16859 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:06:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ahc1/ahc0? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Argh. LINT says ahc0 provides support for 274X and 284X adapters. ahc says it supports the 29/3940(U)(W) adapters, and motherboard based AIC 7870/7880 adapters. But down below, it shows up as ahc1. Is there some reason ahc is listed twice? Is the note really wrong? Is there now a sep driver for 29XX vs 27XX devices? I ask, because with the recent problems with the AHC driver, maybe they were split to handle some pathological case or something... From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 11:20:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03751 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyber2.servtech.com (smc@cyber2.servtech.com [199.1.22.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03746 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smc@localhost) by cyber2.servtech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18755 for hackers@freebsd.org; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:20:36 -0400 (EDT) From: smc@servtech.com To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:14 EDT Subject: Reaching into CVS? Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <335275730.4941@cyber2.servtech.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I recently discovered that some fixes were made to the kernel that affect my activities on FreeBSD. The problem is that I found out about these changes a few days after they were made, and now the files have been changed further, requiring me to grab more of the L&G than I want (I'd like to stay as close to 2.2.1R as possible). Is there any way I can get previous versions of files in the source tree? Thanks, -Shawn From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 11:39:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05139 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05115 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem07.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.37]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA28417; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:39:41 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33528579.2327@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:28:57 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Bielicki CC: Christoph Haas , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> <19970414132007.50670@linkdesign.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I agree with Michael. I would like to see a web page with: 1) The results of the POSIX compliance test distributed by NIST (actually a pretty long file). 2) A hardware compatibility list 3) A list of commercial appl. for FreeBSD with links to their web pages, and/or contact information. Trial versions if possible, although this are usually included in the CD. 4) A list of the commercial applications for SCO that have been reported tested with FreeBSD.(AFAIK Oracle already runs). 5) A list similar to (4) with Linux app. 6) Maybe even a posting board of "wanted" software where users say what type of applications they would buy. Pedro. Michael Bielicki wrote: > > Hmmm, some kind of Tortilla Flat here ??? > Definitely :-) > anyway, christoph I find your Idea and action perfect and would have one basic > question: > > Would you add a description where FreeBSD differs from the basic BSD stuff ?? > > Would you add a description how far posix support goes ?? > > These are the two questions I have been asked all the time when I suggested > FreeBSD as a commercial platform. The problem is not only on the development > side but also on the sales side. As long as I cannot tell my customer that his > SCO based Oracle will run perfectly on FreeBSD and that I will be able to give > him this guarantee on paper he will not even dream about moving to FreeBSD. > > As long as the commercial customers don't like FreeBSD I have difficulties in > pushing commercial vendors to develop drivers. > > I work a lot with development companies for things like network drivers, > PSTN over the Internet etc... and none of them treats this stuff seriously. > I tried to get TokenRing drivers from a lot of companies and was even ready to pay up to 1500 Bucks for the driver only. No chance. > > I know that you guys here are not very in the legacy market, but simnce SNA > counts for 65 Billion US$ only in Europe and the Middle East I am very > much in it :)) > > And there the bullshit starts. Most customers I have would be happy to use FreeBSD as there gateway to the Internet. Support for SSH does a lot, and the > Filtering alias and NAT features are perfect. Stability is an argument too. > But, to get support for tn5250 I would have to write my own cause none of the > vendors supplies one for freebsd. Hmmm gosh, I can get one for 99US$ fo r Windows > and use it for them with WInGate. How the hell should I explain this to a customer? > > BTW, the same applies to BSDI so FreeBSD is not alone here, but IMHO if this > is going to be a commercial platform, give some incentives to the development > guys and stop talking like this list would be the clue to everything. > > No developer will even look at this stuff as long as there is no professional > support and no ass to kick if something does not work. I don't see > the commercial guys risking their ass to convince a customer to use FreeBSD > > Cheers > > Michael > > -- > Michael Bielicki > Link Design International Ltd. Buisnetco Telecommunications Ltd. > 65 Cliff Road, Tramore, Office 23, 13, Iras Street > Co. Waterford, Ireland Nicosia 1061, Rep. of Cyprus > Tel: +353-51-390880 We use FreeBSD Tel: +357 2 362 421 > Fax: +353 51 386921 http://www.linkdesign.com Fax: +357 2 362 429 > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Part 1.2 Type: application/pgp-signature From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 11:41:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05305 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05100 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem07.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.37]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA28424; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:40:15 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <335293EF.535B@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:30:39 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org CC: Alex Belits , Adrian Chadd Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Adrian Chadd wrote: > > God I love a good religious battle, don't you? > > I agree with Jordan - this is getting quite out of hand. > I agree, and I won't go into the Linux vs. FreeBSD controversy either. I do have (I hope) some constructive suggestions, after having a crack on a Linux box: 1) I like our way of rebuilding the kernel, but perhaps "we" (actually a good programmer, not me) could add a program or script that would ask the options for the desired kernel and will help build the configuration file. Nothing really fancy is required, maybe even a PERL script should be enough. 2) I have found that in Linux the administrator has greater control over the disks. There are defragmentation tools (which are not really required in UNIX of course), and there's also a semi-graphical fdisk utility. 3) There is some more information regarding sharing swap space with other OSs..haven't tried that on FreeBSD. 4) I agree that stability is of primary importance, but additional features clearly labelled in BETA state would be nice. IPX routing, for example, is said to be tested only on 2.1.x boxes but it was not included until 2.2. The SCO emulation wasn't upgraded until version 2.2, not to mention the ports tree. It all gave the impression that 2.1.x wasn't important at all. Pedro. > > -- > Adrian Chadd | UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ... > | (also known as the Good, the bad and the > | ugly..) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 11:55:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06299 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrimp.dataplex.net (shrimp.dataplex.net [208.2.87.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06290 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.69.236.50] (GATEWAY.SKIPSTONE.COM [198.214.10.129]) by shrimp.dataplex.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25358; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:54:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: 14 Apr 97 13:54:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Reaching into CVS? From: "Richard Wackerbarth" To: smc@servtech.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Apr 14, 1997 1:14 PM, smc@servtech.com wrote: >now the >files have been changed further, requiring me to grab more of the >L&G than I want (I'd like to stay as close to 2.2.1R as possible). > >Is there any way I can get previous versions of files in the source >tree? If you have the CVS tree or use CVSUP, I think that you should be able to specify both a tree branch tag and a date and thereby extract anything you wish. If you use CTM, you can apply just as many (or few) of the updates as you wish. (See the README file in the archive for details on how to start from the RELEASE Tarballs) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 11:59:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06466 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bugs.us.dell.com (bugs.us.dell.com [143.166.169.147]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06461 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ant.us.dell.com (ant.us.dell.com [198.64.66.34]) by bugs.us.dell.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA26929; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:56:56 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970414135655.007abc30@bugs.us.dell.com> X-Sender: tony@bugs.us.dell.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:56:55 -0500 To: Michael Smith , chuckr@Journey2.mat.net (Chuck Robey) From: Tony Overfield Subject: Re: floppy disks Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704141556.BAA28512@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 01:26 AM 4/15/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: >Hmm, my memory is a tad rusty here, but there was a time when nobody >was agreeing on whether it was pin 2 or 32 that was the diskchange >signal. It's pin 34. It's very susceptible to failure because it's the very last wire in the cable (away from the red stripe) and is frequently broken by manhandling the cables. Pin 1 is also vulnerable, but it's a redundant ground wire, so nobody ever notices it. In DOS, as in CP/M, you can press ^C to invalidate the previous floppy buffers, though it's best to put on a new cable and hope that works. - Tony From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 12:20:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA07944 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA07939 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA04000; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:20:06 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:20 EDT Received: from lakes.water.net (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.water.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA21223 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.water.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) id OAA25971 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:57:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199704141857.OAA25971@lakes.water.net> To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers Subject: update on 2.2.1 NFS problems... (my debugging...) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been putting printf()s in my kernel to try and determine where my NFS is locking up. Well - it has wound it's way all the way down to soreceive(). Apparently, it's going like this: 1) nfs_readdirrpc() calls nfsm_request() [toward the top of nfs_readdirrpc(). 2) nfs_request calls nfs_send() to send the request, and then calls nfs_reply to wait on the reply. 3) nfs_reply calls nfs_receive() which, since this is simply a "normal" NFS (not TCP), jumps down to do an soreceive(). 4) soreceive() locks up. This, of course, explains why the "ls -l" process that causes this is handing in "sbwait"... [On another note, eventually, of course, the kernel times out this request and you get "nfs server XXX:/filesystem: not responding" - but that time out seems to take a *lot* longer than the -t option would indicate...] This would seem to be a rather generic socket issue - has anyone got any ideas? - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 13:20:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11612 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA11605 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA10308; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:20:02 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:20 EDT Received: from lakes.water.net (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.water.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22067 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:54:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.water.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) id QAA26402 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:01:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:01:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199704142001.QAA26402@lakes.water.net> To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers Subject: "calcru: negative time" messages with 2.2.1 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I keep getting "calcru: negative time: -XXX usec" messages from my 2.2.1 box. If it were running for quite some time, I would expect these - but it occurs right after boot up... The values aren't that large (say, -564, -599) - so I'm betting it's the 'usec' field which has gone negative (or very large positive) somehow (although, I'm expanding the printf() to ensure that's the case.) Can anyone thing of a reason why microtime() would behave so strangely? - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 13:39:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12730 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-47.netcom.ca [207.181.94.111]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12723 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA28584; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:38:51 -0300 (ADT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:38:51 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: rsacrack@vex.net cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RSA Challenge Situation Report... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... As of 5:30ADT, here is how things are looking for the RSA Cracking Challenge. Notice the steady increase in computers on suck.it.ca *and* the steady improvement of our standings... Have had a few more FreeBSD PPro owners sending me private email on how to get involved, so I figured I'd send this out to the hackers@ list as well... According to the stats at http://www.vex.net/rsa, FreeBSD constitutes 40% of the machine running on the 'registered' effort... Sun, Apr 13, 14:15 - hosts connecting to suck.it.ca: 58 - blocks behind best.net: 6364 Sun, Apr 13, 23:30 - hosts connecting to suck.it.ca: 131 (4.77Mkeys/sec) - blocks behind best.net: 5347 (5.25Mkeys/sec) Mon, Apr 14, 08:48 - hosts connecting to suck.it.ca: 202 (5.21Mkeys/sec) - blocks behind best.net: 4416 (5.39Mkeys/sec) Mon, Apr 14, 10:30 - hosts connected to suck.it.ca: 215 (4.78Mkeys/sec) - blocks behind best.net: 4339 (5.40Mkeys/sec) Mon, Apr 14, 17:30 - hosts connected to suck.it.ca: 363 (6.10Mkeys/sec) - blocks behind best.net: 3222 (5.56Mkeys/sec) Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 13:40:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12911 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12903 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wGsX0-0007di-00; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:39:18 -0600 To: Michael Smith Subject: Re: floppy disks Cc: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net (Chuck Robey), FreeBSD-Hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:26:52 +0930." <199704141556.BAA28512@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199704141556.BAA28512@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:39:18 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199704141556.BAA28512@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes: : Hmm, my memory is a tad rusty here, but there was a time when nobody : was agreeing on whether it was pin 2 or 32 that was the diskchange : signal. Some vendors (eg. Atari) used to read the write-protect : signal instead (and got tripped up by drive's that masked it with the : disk-present sensor), but I would start by checking that pins 2 and 32 : make it from the drive back to your controller, and if the floppy : drive(s) are more than a year or two old, see if there's a "DC" jumper : you can play with on them. That would be pin 34. Older disk drives used this for READY, while newer ones use this for disk change. The only reason I know this has to do with an obscure piece of computing history named the DEC Rainbow 100b and RX-50 disk drives and trying to find 3.5" floppies that would work with the controller in question. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 13:52:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13620 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA13613 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19230; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:29:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142029.NAA19230@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:29:05 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970412185325.00b30650@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 12, 97 06:53:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> There's too much "its fixed in -current" or "it'll be in the next release" > >> and not enough commitment to getting fixes and important new feature > >> into the short-term. > >But "important new features"? No way... a new feature waits for > >a release. Releases are *defined* by a feature freeze. Add a > >new feature, and once again, you have a -current. > > I said "short-term", which implied 2.3, not 3.0 in 1998. I am not happy with the release schedule, either. But: #ifdef NEW_FEATURE #define NEW_RELEASE #endif And that's the way the world works. Probably you really want more frequent releases. But then, that eaxcerbates the interface problems, as long as kernel internals are herniated out through libkvm. 8-(. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 13:59:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13890 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA13826 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19260; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:34:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142034.NAA19260@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: chris@acme1.ruhr.de (Christoph Haas) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:34:30 -0700 (MST) Cc: dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, haas@lion.de In-Reply-To: from "Christoph Haas" at Apr 13, 97 01:14:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I really think that our view of FreeBSD is too technical. We should start > to care about what people are doing with it, not only thinking of what > features to add next. A big part of this is, IMO, taking care to not break things unnecessarily, either by not exposing the internals of things we intend to change, or not changing the things for which we have exposed internals. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:11:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14467 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14461 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.Artisoft.COM by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA12187 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:08:31 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19245; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:31:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142031.NAA19245@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: 430TX ? To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:31:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, langfod@dihelix.com, ejs@bfd.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, steve@visint.co.uk, louie@transsys.com, michaelh@cet.co.jp, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704122335.JAA16806@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 13, 97 09:05:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The real pain is that no one seems to be doing anything about getting > > SRAM density up... the only benefit DRAM has over SRAM is its density... ************************************************** > > everything else favors SRAM. > > a) bollocks. SRAM density is moving along quite nicely, and it's becoming > much more cost-effective. We're down from $200 for a 512x16 stick to > about $60 for two 512Kx8 parts, and we expect to be paying under $10 > each for them with the next generation of parts due soon. > > b) DRAM has the massive advantage that a DRAM memory cell is _very_ small. > SRAM does not have this advantage. Can you say "low relative density"? Your point 'b' is a restatement of my claim... Your point 'a' is referring to some density other than cell density, and I have no idea what -- it seems to be referring to pricing for some reason? Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:12:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14600 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14595 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA00793 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19277; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:37:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142037.NAA19277@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: detecting kernel version at compile time To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:37:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704130204.TAA09799@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Darren Reed" at Apr 13, 97 11:58:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I do not use the __FreeBSD__ tag, personally. > > Okay, Terry, you don't use __FreeBSD__ and you don't use . > > How do you write code that compiles & runs on FreeBSD 2.1.6 -> > FreeBSD-current ? > > More importantly, how do you write kernel code for the same set of versions > without having n different source files ? By not writing code which depends on features which are different between the two releases, of course: if you limit the number of system interfaces you consume, you must, inevitably, also limit the amount of damage that a change to a single system interface is capable of causing. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:20:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14959 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14945; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA00883 ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19330; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:55:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142055.NAA19330@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: vnode as filesystem (crash!) To: mtaylor@cybernet.com (Mark Taylor) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:55:10 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Mark Taylor" at Apr 13, 97 02:38:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've come up with a "fix": > 1) In the makefiles script, I cause a 'sync' every 100 files created, > and all is fine- all of the 7500 files get created. > 2) Instead of the /bin/sync in the script, I change kern.update from > the default 30 to 5. All 7500 files get made, no problem. > > So there seems to be a problem with the vm/fs cache? I'd hate to live > with a 5 second update time. Look at the NetBSD ffs_balloc.c and ffs_alloc.c. I believe FreeBSD is missing a number of calls to vnode_pager_setsize() that NetBSD has. There is also a FreeBSD ftruncate() case where if the indirect blocks are not zero, FreeBSD will we itself (NetBSD fixed this too). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:22:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15101 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15094 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id OAA00881 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA16153; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:20:02 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:20 EDT Received: (from rivers@localhost) by ponds.water.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) id RAA23661 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:12:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199704142112.RAA23661@ponds.water.net> To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU Subject: NFS hangups in 2.2.1 - problem in calling sowakeup()??? Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok - (Again, this is the readdir hangs in NFS with 2.2.1). I've determined that soreceive() calls sbwait() - which dutifully waits on &sb->sb_cc. I've also determined that sowakeup() *never* does a wakeup() on that address. So, the problem; as it appears to me, has to be that sowakeup() is never called with the socket buffer associated with the socket from the original readdir(); and so, the "ls -l" is hung forever in sbwait(). It's not at all obvious to me how sowakeup() is supposed to be called, (I imagine from some interrupt routine, somewhere...) and from where it gets it's second parm (the socket buffer in question) - but I'd bet that's where the problem lies... Can someone "in the know" investigate, or point me to where this might be... Since I have a reliable reproduction of the problem; I'm likely the only "tester" around... - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:23:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15181 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA15164 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19292; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:40:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142040.NAA19292@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:40:40 -0700 (MST) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <16474.860906973@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 12, 97 09:49:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Seriously, the biggest reason things "rot" in FreeBSD is that nobody > is actively maintaining them. If you want to take on X.25 both > now and for the forseeable future, I see no problem with resurrecting > it. Actually, it's because there is no responsibility to enforce somone changing an interface being responsible for changing all consumers of that interface. Again, the existing X.25 code did not change, FreeBSD did. It is not the code which is unusable by FreeBSD, it is FreeBSD which i incapable of using the code. Engaging in finger pointing at static code sucks... Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:25:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15345 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA15325 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19353; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:02:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142102.OAA19353@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:02:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413214534.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 13, 97 09:45:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > YOU dont understand marketing. You make something *expensive* by > adding value. Companies that have cheap products (ie some of my > competitors) do so because they can't or dont know how to add > value. One square cm of silicon is one square cm of silicon, whatever the effort which went into creating the chipmask that dictates the arrangement of the doping materials. (God, I sound like Richard Stallman talking about why you should be allowed to copy software for free! Quick, someone! Stop me!). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:31:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15757 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA15734; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19365; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:08:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142108.OAA19365@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:08:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, dyson@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org, scrappy@hub.org, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970413214851.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 13, 97 09:48:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > *coherent* is one thing....having a focus is another (theres that word > again!). Since there is no clear goal, the future is a fog, which makes > Freebsd undesirable in the long run for major endeavors. The word "coherent" is unique in that it can make a room full of people think of topics as disparate as "laser light" and "an old UNIX-like OS", when it was intended to convey "clarity of purpose"; in as such, the word is obviously not "coherent". The word "focus" is unique, in that it can, in a single word, sum up idiotic ideas like "put all the wood behind one arrow", "all oars rowing in the same direction", "work smarter, not harder", and similar claptrap, and, by making it a single word, somehow render it reasonable to people otherwise too intelligent to fall for it otherwise. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:36:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16026 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16019; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:36:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704142136.OAA16019@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Cc: imp@village.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704141759.DAA29315@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 15, 97 03:29:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > > Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > > > > The aic driver works well enough on most of the hardware in question. > > Last time I noted bugs in it, I was politely asked to provide hardware > > for the effort since the main developers don't have hardware. I found > > it was easier for me to get a different card than to do this because I > > didn't wanna have to buy two of them. > > Damn; I have one of these cards, and I could have gotten it to germany > or possibly the USA for free. If someone is serious about wanting one > (an Adaptec AHA-1510), let me know and I'll see what I can do. got an Adaptec AHA-1510 rght here in washington dc someone whant it? send me an address. jmb From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:41:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16288 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA16266; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA06516; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:27:00 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:26:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Yonny Cardenas To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Two ppp connections under serial ports... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, I'm trying to set up my box as a router with PPPd. We had no problem with one network card and one serial port, but when we tried to route through a second port we got the following message: pppd[197]: ioctl (TIOCSETD) : Device not configured pppd[197]: ioctl (TIOCSETD) : Device not configured Any hints? best regards, Yonny Cardenas From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:57:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17358 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17351 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19436; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:36:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142136.OAA19436@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: jbryant@tfs.net Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:36:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> from "Jim Bryant" at Apr 13, 97 10:13:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Case in point... Lin[s]ux... Ten-Twenty different versions, bad > networking, even worse VM... Vendors love it!! Why? Hmmmm... > > Maybe it's because people have gone out and and said to h*ll with all > this bs counting the number of angels one can paint on the head of a > pin [read that as philosophical bs discussions] and wrote books for > Lin[s]ux, made it available at the local store on CD-ROM, plastered > the magazines for it, invented magazines for it, and got the attention > of the vendors enough that they develop for it... I would write a book for FreeBSD, but... o It takes ~2000 hours to write a decent book. This is one man year. FreeBSD can't maintain stable interfaces for one man year, so my book would be outdated. Linux can mantain stable interfaces because they have to walk a terrifically fine line between all their various distributions. o I would have to voice my honest opinions about some very idiotic things which never change, even though they have been pointed at time and again and the statement made "hey, look here at this idiotic thing". o The FreeBSD market is self limiting because the number of FreeBSD enthusiasts who can simultaneously participate is also inherently limited. That means I'd have to charge a lot, or I'd have to convince an awful lot of the available people to buy the book. Neither prosepect seens very fruitful. The "roll a CDROM distribution" is problematic. First, there is "brand loyalty" for Walnut Creek, which supported FreeBSD back when it desperately needed the support, and it would be incredibly difficult to overcome this in my own mind, let alone attempt to sell the idea to others. The several places which have tried have been effectively flamed to death in the newgroups, with "Walnut Creek is the official distribution, and I don't even want to try to help you with your problem otherwise". The magazine issues are slowly being addressed. FreeBSD does not have the critical mass for it, or hasn't, and the current effort underway is hedging this by covering all of the free systems instead of just FreeBSD, in the hopes that that will be a sufficiently broad base that they can succeed where the likes of Linux Journal succeeded. The vendor attention and magazine/press attention that Linux has is missing from FreeBSD (all freely available BSD's) because there is no single mouthpiece, like Linus. He is a Schnelling point, a common reference for Linux, and without a Bill Jolitz or similar "old father", *BSD appears strangley amorpohrous and intractable to journalists who really *would* like to be able to get a hold of something, a spokesperson who can speak on behalf of the project, and who can drive that stake into the ground, two years in the future, and tell them "here's how we are going to go about getting there". There is no drama or story on the order of Steve Jobs and Allpe, Steve Jobs and NeXT, Bill Gates and Microsoft, Linus and Linux, etc., etc.. > Who here has seen "The Life of Brian"? This topic sounds like a > meeting of the People's Front of Judea [officials]! But you keep > talking like this, you may as well be the the Crack Suicide Squad of > the Judean People's Front!!! The point is, get up off your @sses and > get commercial support, stop talking about it! All's ya gotta do"... is a big problem. Instead of talking about what needs to be done for this, *how* would you go about doing it? One thing that has made me a vastly unpopular thorn is that I am willing to tell people, in no uncertain terms, how I would do something, and I end up stepping on architectural toes in the process... "shutup, you aren't the architect!" ...or more accurately, "shut up, you aren't the boss of me!". Other people are in this same boat, even core team members. At least if you say how you think you could approach the problem, then for better or worse, you have some skin in the game (even if you end up being despised for it, at least you're not a hippocrite -- even if it makes you a member-elect of the suicide squad). > Do you think Bill Gates got where he is today by debating for three > years on whether or not to take action? No, Bill got where he was because he was lucky, and then after he was lucky, he wasn't stupid, and then after he wasn't stupid, he kept the control, and now he can look half a year down the road without having to answer to a board of directors he doesn't control, and in so doing appear to be a visionary stud to all the idiots looking one quarter down the road. > Or for that matter, the same for the lamers using Lin[s]ux!!!! The "lamers using Linux" have A Piece Of The True Cross... they have the GPL, for better or worse, and have a religion built around it. and they have a pope (Linux) and a college of cardinals (each the equivalent of a BSD core team leader with a license from the Pope to make final and binding theological judgements, subject only to the will of the Pope). You can't reasonably compare a Kuwait-style limited sufferage government to the Divine Right of Kings without delving into an abstraction of what you are comparing from how you are performing the comparison. People with A Piece Of The True Cross are in it for The Paradise To Come, and the motivations behind the groups are not similar. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 14:58:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17427 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17419 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19446; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:37:02 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142137.OAA19446@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:37:02 -0700 (MST) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704140341.XAA06041@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Apr 13, 97 11:41:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Case in point... Lin[s]ux... > [ ... ] > bad networking, even worse VM... > > Care to back these claims up with factual information? I've studied > both FreeBSD's and Linux's vm/net subsystems at great length, and I > would love to know what I might have overlooked during my studies. Religious fervor. Plus you did not epect the Spanish Inquisition. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:04:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17820 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17810 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA01087 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19460; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:42:00 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142142.OAA19460@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:42:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Alex Belits" at Apr 13, 97 10:03:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Linux is more available for users, and a lot of its users have no > clue, how to use it. Ugh. I take exception here. It sounds like you are claiming Linux users mostly come from installations of CDROM's from bookstores, instead of from the net. Net availability is equal, if different. > Linux developers (and developers that just supported Linux well) didn't > do anything at the "big corporations" scale. They just didn't use the > approach "we will make The Distribution, we will port everything around > to make sure, it will fit The Distribution, and if we change something, > you should take new Distribution and our port, or it will break". Heh. "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile."... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:04:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17875 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA17864 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA26579 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:02:53 -0700 Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [205.252.122.1]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA09302; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [205.252.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA00954; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:03:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:02:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: smc@servtech.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Reaching into CVS? In-Reply-To: <335275730.4941@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 smc@servtech.com wrote: > Hello, > > I recently discovered that some fixes were made to the kernel that > affect my activities on FreeBSD. The problem is that I found out > about these changes a few days after they were made, and now the > files have been changed further, requiring me to grab more of the > L&G than I want (I'd like to stay as close to 2.2.1R as possible). > > Is there any way I can get previous versions of files in the source > tree? Do you have the cvs tree? It's a trivial thing for that. If you don't have it, tell me what you need (offline). > > Thanks, > -Shawn > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:05:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17953 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-7.mail.demon.net (relay-7.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA17940 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erlenstar.demon.co.uk ([194.222.144.22]) by relay-6.mail.demon.net id aa0624559; 14 Apr 97 19:52 BST Received: (from andrew@localhost) by erlenstar.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA00285; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:51:10 +0100 (BST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: vmen3237@ss1000.ms.mff.cuni.cz Subject: Re: ahc problems w/ xcdplayer? References: <87rageuxny.fsf@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> From: Andrew Gierth In-Reply-To: Andrew Gierth's message of 14 Apr 1997 03:48:49 +0100 X-Mayan-Date: Long count = 12.19.4.1.8; tzolkin = 5 Lamat; haab = 6 Pop X-Attribution: AG Date: 14 Apr 1997 19:51:09 +0100 Message-ID: <87sp0txwte.fsf@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> Lines: 43 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "AG" == Andrew Gierth writes: AG> Selecting "play" on xcdplayer for the *second* time locks the machine AG> dead. Before it dies, though, it emits these messages: OK. Have pulled in all the latest stuff from RELENG_2_2, and it no longer crashes the machine, but neither does it work... :-( Using "cdplayer" from the xcd port, and issuing the commands CD> play 1 2 (actually any play or msfplay command can be substituted) CD> stop CD> msfplay 0 2 0 1 2 0 This is what the console shows: cd0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0x0 - timed out while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI == 0x0 SEQADDR = 0x5 SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0xa cd0(ahc0:2:0): Queueing an Abort SCB cd0(ahc0:2:0): Abort Message Sent cd0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0 - Abort Completed. cd0(ahc0:2:0): no longer in timeout ahc0:A:2: no active SCB for reconnecting target - issuing ABORT SAVED_TCL == 0x20 Timedout SCB handled by another timeout sd0(ahc0:0:0): SCB 0x2 - timed out in message out phase, SCSISIGI == 0x0 SEQADDR = 0xa1 SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0xa sd0(ahc0:0:0): SCB 2: Yucky Immediate reset. Flags = 0x1 ahc0: Issued Channel A Bus Reset. 1 SCBs aborted Clearing bus reset Clearing 'in-reset' flag sd0(ahc0:0:0): no longer in timeout sd0(ahc0:0:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 sd0(ahc0:0:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred field replaceable unit: 1 , retries:3 Can anyone venture a guess as to how to investigate or fix this? Oddly, it only seems to be the msfplay command that causes the error, and only if used *after* stopping another play command. After the sequence above has occured, and the device closed and reopened, an msfplay command succeeds; issue "stop" then another msfplay and the same error repeats. -- Andrew. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:05:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17962 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (root@cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17927 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [205.252.122.1]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA09040; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [205.252.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA00743; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:02:19 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:01:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Tony Overfield cc: Michael Smith , FreeBSD-Hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: floppy disks In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970414135655.007abc30@bugs.us.dell.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Tony Overfield wrote: > At 01:26 AM 4/15/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote: > >Hmm, my memory is a tad rusty here, but there was a time when nobody > >was agreeing on whether it was pin 2 or 32 that was the diskchange > >signal. > > It's pin 34. It's very susceptible to failure because it's the very > last wire in the cable (away from the red stripe) and is frequently > broken by manhandling the cables. Pin 1 is also vulnerable, but it's > a redundant ground wire, so nobody ever notices it. > > In DOS, as in CP/M, you can press ^C to invalidate the previous > floppy buffers, though it's best to put on a new cable and hope > that works. That was the problem (thanks to you and Mike Smith! it's working nicely now.) > > - > Tony > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:08:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18229 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA18222 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19469; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:44:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142144.OAA19469@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: User time stopped. To: markd@Grizzly.COM (Mark Diekhans) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:44:26 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704140646.XAA17288@osprey.grizzly.com> from "Mark Diekhans" at Apr 13, 97 11:46:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My 2.2.1 system has quit accumulating user time. Yes. As of 2.2.1, all user space code executes instantaneously! Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:09:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18282 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18277 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-11.mail.demon.net (relay-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.137]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id PAA01109 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erlenstar.demon.co.uk ([194.222.144.22]) by relay-10.mail.demon.net id aa1006212; 14 Apr 97 20:38 BST Received: (from andrew@localhost) by erlenstar.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00328; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:38:10 +0100 (BST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: vmen3237@ss1000.ms.mff.cuni.cz Subject: Re: ahc problems w/ xcdplayer? References: From: Andrew Gierth In-Reply-To: "Vladimir Mencl, MK, susSED"'s message of Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:14:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mayan-Date: Long count = 12.19.4.1.8; tzolkin = 5 Lamat; haab = 6 Pop X-Attribution: AG Date: 14 Apr 1997 20:38:10 +0100 Message-ID: <87d8rx2y59.fsf@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Vladimir" == Vladimir Mencl, MK, susSED writes: > On 14 Apr 1997, Andrew Gierth wrote: >> Selecting "play" on xcdplayer for the *second* time locks the machine >> dead. Before it dies, though, it emits these messages: Vladimir> I've the exactly same problem. I thought that it could be Vladimir> because of an too weak power supply (I've 3 harddisks, 2 Vladimir> floppy drives, a tapedrive and a SCSI cd), but it seems Vladimir> that it's something in the drivers... I think I've sorted it. The core problem seems to be timeouts in scsi/cd.c that are too short. The msfplay command was being issued, but timing out; the ahc driver in 2.2.1R then ties itself in knots and dies.... (As near as I can tell, on my hardware the command is taking very close to 2s to complete, and the timeout is 2s. This seems to confuse the heck out of the driver....) The problem doesn't happen with "play" because the timeout for that is longer (20s). My solution for now is to change "2000" to "20000" in the call to scsi_scsi_cmd in cd_play_msf (sys/scsi/cd.c). Seems ok now. -- Andrew. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:11:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18450 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18437 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA20390; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:10:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Snob Art Genre To: Alex Belits cc: Joerg Wunsch , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Alex Belits wrote: > On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > > > The junk is not at crucial parts of the system. Things like ft(4) or > > aic(4) (yeah, my most favourite examples) simply haven't been removed > > since users are still using them. But, etinc.com doesn't have to rely > > on a crappy floppy tape driver. > > ...and this is wrong -- if users use it and it doesn't work, no > commercial software verndor will feel safe with such system because he > will fear that users will abandon system, or system's problems will be > attributed to his software. Arguments like "only losers use floppy tape, > but since they do, we keep crappy code for them, and everywhere else our > system is good" won't help in that case. So maintain the fscking ft code! If you think it's important and worthwhile. If you don't, why are you wasting our time? Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:18:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18914 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from osprey.grizzly.com (med.sc.scruznet.com [165.227.115.28]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18905 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from markd@localhost) by osprey.grizzly.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA00941; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704142219.PAA00941@osprey.grizzly.com> From: Mark Diekhans To: terry@lambert.org CC: hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199704142144.OAA19469@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:44:26 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: User time stopped. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> My 2.2.1 system has quit accumulating user time. > >Yes. As of 2.2.1, all user space code executes instantaneously! I was right! The FreeBSD core team are deities!!!! From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:22:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19199 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA19188 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19550; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:59:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142159.OAA19550@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) To: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:59:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Chadd" at Apr 14, 97 10:18:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > God I love a good religious battle, don't you? > > I agree with Jordan - this is getting quite out of hand. Aw, Jordan *always* says that about any topic which touches a nerve; he has a major aversion to root canal, which I attribute to him having a secondary trans-mandibular nerve. He just needs a dentist with a good grasp of anatomical variations... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:23:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19270 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA19265 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA19569; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:01:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142201.PAA19569@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: Anthony.Kimball@East.Sun.COM Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:01:44 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, j@uriah.heep.sax.de In-Reply-To: <199704141539.KAA02603@compound.east.sun.com> from "Tony Kimball" at Apr 14, 97 10:39:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Quoth J Wunsch on Mon, 14 April: > : > : So what? Do you want us to remove these drivers? > > It would seem sensible to move decaying software into a separate > distribution system, a la ports, were there sufficient reason to > motivate the effort. Here, here. It would also save them from being deleted outright while they still functioned. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:24:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19328 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA19323 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA19579; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:02:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704142202.PAA19579@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:02:53 -0700 (MST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Warner Losh" at Apr 14, 97 10:58:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The aic driver works well enough on most of the hardware in question. > Last time I noted bugs in it, I was politely asked to provide hardware > for the effort since the main developers don't have hardware. I found > it was easier for me to get a different card than to do this because I > didn't wanna have to buy two of them. Heh. Did you send the old card to the developer? 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:37:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20290 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20270 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (localhost.lan.awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA26063; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:56:45 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199704142156.WAA26063@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: jbryant@tfs.net cc: dennis@etinc.com (dennis), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:13:31 CDT." <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:56:45 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [.....] > *note: If you have no idea what I'm talking about when I mention the > People's Front of Judea, or the Judean People's Front, then get up off > your butt and rent "The Life of Brian"!!! AND REMEMBER ! YOU'RE *ALL* DIFFERENT ! YOU'RE *ALL* INDIVIDUALS ! > Jim > -- > All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, > think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or > radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" > jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable -- Brian , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 15:58:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21410 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21391; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id RAA02060; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:56:56 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704142256.RAA02060@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: vnode as filesystem (crash!) In-Reply-To: <199704142055.NAA19330@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 14, 97 01:55:10 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:56:56 -0500 (EST) Cc: mtaylor@cybernet.com, hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I believe FreeBSD is missing a number of calls to vnode_pager_setsize() > that NetBSD has. > Actually, vnode_pager_setsize (and it's equally often evil friend, vnode_pager_uncache) are used too often (and incorrectly) in the original (Lite/2) code. > > There is also a FreeBSD ftruncate() case where if the indirect blocks > are not zero, FreeBSD will we itself (NetBSD fixed this too). > I didn't know about that. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 16:14:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22423 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22418 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA06947; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:13:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 13:40:40 PDT." <199704142040.NAA19292@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:13:54 -0700 Message-ID: <6943.861059634@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Again, the existing X.25 code did not change, FreeBSD did. It is not > the code which is unusable by FreeBSD, it is FreeBSD which i incapable > of using the code. Yeah, sure. As usual, you fail to distinguish between the practical realities and your idealized vision of How It Should Be(tm). If nobody actively maintains X.25 then it dies, period. There are no Code Police to ensure that anything that anyone does will not break something in the farthest-flung corners of the system and there aren't likely to be anytime soon. Your point, as usual, is more or less correct but fundamentally useless. You must be a mathematician or something. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 16:15:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA22463 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22457 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA26926; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:11:19 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:11:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704142311.RAA26926@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <199704142142.OAA19460@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704142142.OAA19460@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Linux is more available for users, and a lot of its users have no > > clue, how to use it. > > Ugh. I take exception here. It sounds like you are claiming Linux > users mostly come from installations of CDROM's from bookstores, instead > of from the net. Net availability is equal, if different. Actually, I'd agree with that statement. *MOST* Linux users install from CDROMS. If it weren't that way I'd argue that Linux would not be as popular as it is, since their network installations are just recently as easy as the FreeBSD installation. They essentially copies the FreeBSD install to do network installations. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 16:25:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23579 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23573 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA07050; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:23:56 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:36:02 PDT." <199704142136.OAA19436@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:23:56 -0700 Message-ID: <7046.861060236@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I would write a book for FreeBSD, but... > > o It takes ~2000 hours to write a decent book. This is one > man year. FreeBSD can't maintain stable interfaces for > one man year, so my book would be outdated. Linux can > mantain stable interfaces because they have to walk a > terrifically fine line between all their various distributions. Strange. I've just signed up with Addison-Wesley to do the long-awaited FreeBSD book and I don't anticipate any trouble like this. It's also not like I'm documenting the kernel interfaces or anything since that's not the kind of book that the great majority of people really need anyway - they need something which describes how to create various types of FreeBSD based solutions. If somebody wants to write "The FreeBSD Kernel Hacker's Guide" then they're more than encouraged to go for it, but I don't think that the market is quite ready to support that kind of book. A general "FreeBSD Bible", yes, and that's what I'm going to write. > o I would have to voice my honest opinions about some very > idiotic things which never change, even though they have > been pointed at time and again and the statement made "hey, > look here at this idiotic thing". Which perhaps suggests that pointing at things and saying "hey, look here at this idiotic thing" isn't the way to change things? Naw, you're right, that's too logical a conclusion to make - what was I thinking? > [Additional drivel about kings and oil-rich countries deleted] Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 16:32:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24042 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24026 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA07090; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:27:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au (Adrian Chadd), abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:59:46 PDT." <199704142159.OAA19550@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:27:29 -0700 Message-ID: <7086.861060449@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > God I love a good religious battle, don't you? > > > > I agree with Jordan - this is getting quite out of hand. > > Aw, Jordan *always* says that about any topic which touches a nerve; No, I say that about truly STUPID topics which are accomplishing nothing. Since you seem to pick an inordinate number of stupid topics to waste *incredible* amounts of time on (and achieve nothing), you get the "shaddup!" response more than most. Don't go looking for obscure secondary causes when the principle cause is staring you in the face, Terry. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 16:53:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25300 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25280; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (localhost.lan.awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01296; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:53:18 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199704142353.AAA01296@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Yonny Cardenas cc: hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Two ppp connections under serial ports... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:26:59 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:53:18 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Howdy, > > I'm trying to set up my box as a router with PPPd. We had no problem with > one network card and one serial port, but when we tried to route through > a second port we got the following message: > > pppd[197]: ioctl (TIOCSETD) : Device not configured > pppd[197]: ioctl (TIOCSETD) : Device not configured > > Any hints? Sounds like "pseudo-device ppp 1" in your config. Increase the number. > best regards, > > Yonny Cardenas > -- Brian , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 17:33:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27546 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA27539 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA19967; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:11:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704150011.RAA19967@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:11:17 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <6943.861059634@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 14, 97 04:13:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Again, the existing X.25 code did not change, FreeBSD did. It is not > > the code which is unusable by FreeBSD, it is FreeBSD which i incapable > > of using the code. > > Yeah, sure. As usual, you fail to distinguish between the practical > realities and your idealized vision of How It Should Be(tm). On the contrary, I not only make the distinction, I note the magnitude of the dicrepancy. I still disagree with your definition of "practical reality", by the way: it's nothing more than a cop out. > If nobody actively maintains X.25 then it dies, period. Who is actively maintaining "more"? Should it die and go away? 8-). > There are no Code Police to ensure that anything that anyone does > will not break something in the farthest-flung corners of the system > and there aren't likely to be anytime soon. Well, that's a damn shame. Commrecial organizations have them, and so does Linux... > Your point, as usual, is more or less correct but fundamentally > useless. You must be a mathematician or something. :-) Physicist; far more practical than mathematicians. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 17:38:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28039 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28031 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA19987; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:16:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704150016.RAA19987@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:16:23 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jbryant@tfs.net, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <7046.861060236@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 14, 97 04:23:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I would write a book for FreeBSD, but... > > > > o It takes ~2000 hours to write a decent book. This is one > > man year. FreeBSD can't maintain stable interfaces for > > one man year, so my book would be outdated. Linux can > > mantain stable interfaces because they have to walk a > > terrifically fine line between all their various distributions. > > Strange. I've just signed up with Addison-Wesley to do the > long-awaited FreeBSD book and I don't anticipate any trouble like > this. It's also not like I'm documenting the kernel interfaces or > anything since that's not the kind of book that the great majority of > people really need anyway - they need something which describes how to > create various types of FreeBSD based solutions. If somebody wants to > write "The FreeBSD Kernel Hacker's Guide" then they're more than > encouraged to go for it, but I don't think that the market is quite > ready to support that kind of book. A general "FreeBSD Bible", yes, > and that's what I'm going to write. A decent technical book is approximately one man year. If it isn't one man year, it's a revision of other peoples writing (acceptable practice, but a rehash), or it's just not a decent technical book. For "The FreeBSD Bible", if you intend it to be an equivalent to "The Linux Bible"... well, all I can say is that if you document at that depth, the documentation will be out of date by the time you publish. "The Linux Bible" got away with it because they were basically a rehash of much of "The Linux Documentation Project". > > o I would have to voice my honest opinions about some very > > idiotic things which never change, even though they have > > been pointed at time and again and the statement made "hey, > > look here at this idiotic thing". > > Which perhaps suggests that pointing at things and saying "hey, look > here at this idiotic thing" isn't the way to change things? Naw, > you're right, that's too logical a conclusion to make - what was I > thinking? Well, apparently submitting code isn't the way to do it either. You have to be aware of problems before you can correct them. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 17:43:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28468 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28442 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA19999; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:17:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704150017.RAA19999@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:17:36 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <7086.861060449@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 14, 97 04:27:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I agree with Jordan - this is getting quite out of hand. > > > > Aw, Jordan *always* says that about any topic which touches a nerve; > > No, I say that about truly STUPID topics which are accomplishing > nothing. Since you seem to pick an inordinate number of stupid topics > to waste *incredible* amounts of time on (and achieve nothing), you > get the "shaddup!" response more than most. Don't go looking for > obscure secondary causes when the principle cause is staring you in > the face, Terry. Funny that you are the primary source of the "shaddup"'s, if they are egalitarian "shaddup"'s... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 17:44:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28625 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28600; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA20030; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:22:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704150022.RAA20030@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: vnode as filesystem (crash!) To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:22:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, mtaylor@cybernet.com, hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704142256.RAA02060@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Apr 14, 97 05:56:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > There is also a FreeBSD ftruncate() case where if the indirect blocks > > are not zero, FreeBSD will we itself (NetBSD fixed this too). > > I didn't know about that. While we're in the neighborhood... should ftruncate() to a file size larger than the larget filesize supported return EFBIG, not EINVAL? It seems the test for the length should be delayed until further into the function? Also, the NetBSD code has a bug, where it will call the setsize() before it tests the length in this particular case... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 18:23:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA01140 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01120; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id SAA01686 ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA08037; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:58:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:58:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Yonny Cardenas To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" cc: hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Two ppp connections under serial ports... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: > > > On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Yonny Cardenas wrote: > > > I'm trying to set up my box as a router with PPPd. We had no problem with > > one network card and one serial port, but when we tried to route through > > a second port we got the following message: > > > > pppd[197]: ioctl (TIOCSETD) : Device not configured > > pppd[197]: ioctl (TIOCSETD) : Device not configured > > Which serial port are you using? Does it show up as successfully found > by the kernel when you boot (or do 'dmesg | more'). My guess is that you > have not configured your kernel for the serial port. I'm using two serials ports ( sio0 and sio1 ) whith null-modem cable. My kernel is good configured for serials. We had no problem using "cu" in both ports simultaneously. And I run pppd so: pppd /dev/ttyd0 115200 aa.bb.cc.dd:ww.xx.yy.zz netmask 0xfffffff0 OR pppd /dev/ttyd1 115200 ii.jj.kk.ll:mm:nn.oo.pp netmask 0xfffffff0 and the connection is established. But I can't to establish on both ports ppp connections at sametime, only in one. > Danny > From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 18:31:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA01987 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01960; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA08126; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704150122.SAA08126@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Terry Lambert Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson), mtaylor@cybernet.com, hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: vnode as filesystem (crash!) Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:22:31 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:22:11 -0700 (MST) Terry Lambert wrote: > Also, the NetBSD code has a bug, where it will call the setsize() before > it tests the length in this particular case... ...and it was so kind of you to report it when you noticed it. I'll make sure and forward this on to the appropriate folks. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 18:34:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02237 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p40.tfs.net [206.154.183.232]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA02228 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA09780; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:32:39 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704150132.UAA09780@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:32:38 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704142040.NAA19292@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 14, 97 01:40:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > Seriously, the biggest reason things "rot" in FreeBSD is that nobody > > is actively maintaining them. If you want to take on X.25 both > > now and for the forseeable future, I see no problem with resurrecting > > it. > > Actually, it's because there is no responsibility to enforce somone > changing an interface being responsible for changing all consumers of > that interface. > > Again, the existing X.25 code did not change, FreeBSD did. It is not > the code which is unusable by FreeBSD, it is FreeBSD which i incapable > of using the code. > > Engaging in finger pointing at static code sucks... Regardless, I have agreed to at least implement AX.25, which in itself is a strange beast... But, then I have the capabilities to test the implementation for functionality... I cannot test pure X.25, as I have nothing that uses it. until i see the state of the existing code, i have no idea whether i will revive the netccitt stuff and merge AX.25 in, and at least get AX.25 working or just use bits and pieces for a new driver... hopefully the netccitt is in a state where i can just merge :^) anyhow, kernel level ip encapsulation is the ultimate goal, but just getting the [A]X.25 stuff working is the stepping stone... > > Regards, > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org ^^^^^^^^^^^ your favorite charity? :^) Time to slip in some Beatles, and do my paperwork for "The Tax Man"... Be glad that Herr Dole didn't get a chance to impose Kansas-style taxation on everyone... Next year, they'll probably levy a shoe tax on the annual personal transportational property tax here in Kansas... Gawd I miss the "no state income tax" policies of Texas... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 18:44:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02800 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA02792 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA07536; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:42:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:11:17 PDT." <199704150011.RAA19967@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:42:46 -0700 Message-ID: <7532.861068566@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I still disagree with your definition of "practical reality", by the > way: it's nothing more than a cop out. Fine, have it your way. If refusing to live in a state of permanent denial is "copping out" then cop out I most definitely shall. > > If nobody actively maintains X.25 then it dies, period. > > Who is actively maintaining "more"? Should it die and go away? 8-). An excellent example. For my side of the argument! :) more, if it broke, would be quickly fixed (by someone, me if no one else) because so many people use it that it would also be quickly noted. If X.25 broke and nobody noticed it for a year, then obviously X.25 is in the "rarely if ever used" pile and probably need to go away. QED. > > There are no Code Police to ensure that anything that anyone does > > will not break something in the farthest-flung corners of the system > > and there aren't likely to be anytime soon. > > Well, that's a damn shame. Commrecial organizations have them, and > so does Linux... You're dreaming. I can load a copy of RedHat 4.1, a Linux distribution with significant "organizational backing", and point to about 4 major things that are broken (on their Linux/ALPHA distribution, for example, you can't even build a working kernel with supplied sources). On SCO, for 4 full months we were unable to build any of our sources with *either* of the XPG4 or the posix compatibility defines set because the include files were completely and utterly broken. Even getting SCO to admit to this was challenging, much less get it fixed. If this is effective code policing in action, give me anarchy. You, as usual, haven't got the faintest idea of what you're talking about. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 18:45:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02881 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA02866 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wGxHm-0000JU-00; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:43:54 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 15:02:53 PDT." <199704142202.PAA19579@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704142202.PAA19579@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:43:54 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199704142202.PAA19579@phaeton.artisoft.com> Terry Lambert writes: : Heh. Did you send the old card to the developer? 8-). No. I deluded myself into thinking I'd have time to play with it :-(. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 18:47:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA03090 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03080 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA07554; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:45:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:17:36 PDT." <199704150017.RAA19999@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:45:52 -0700 Message-ID: <7551.861068752@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Funny that you are the primary source of the "shaddup"'s, if they are > egalitarian "shaddup"'s... Most others are probably too polite to say anything. I do not suffer from the excess-of-politeness problem and if you're opening encouraging everyone on the hackers list to feel more free to tell you to shut up when you're raving on at length on some inconsequential topic, I'm sure they'll be happy to oblige you. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 18:48:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA03097 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p40.tfs.net [206.154.183.232]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA03081 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA09806; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:46:39 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704150146.UAA09806@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:46:35 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704150011.RAA19967@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 14, 97 05:11:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Who is actively maintaining "more"? Should it die and go away? 8-). from ~/.cshrc ----------------- ... setenv PAGER less setenv MORE less ... alias more less ... i wish vi would die too... setenv VISUAL emacs setenv EDITOR emacs > > > There are no Code Police to ensure that anything that anyone does > > will not break something in the farthest-flung corners of the system > > and there aren't likely to be anytime soon. > > Well, that's a damn shame. Commrecial organizations have them, and > so does Linux... the company i am on assignment with requires the same... but then, we are dealing with just under 100 Million records a day in realtime volume, and every record generates revenue... But then FreeBSD itself has a multitude of uses... > > Your point, as usual, is more or less correct but fundamentally > > useless. You must be a mathematician or something. :-) > > Physicist; far more practical than mathematicians. ^^^^^^^^^^ no wonder you spend so much time working of FreeBSD!!! most of the physicists i know can't find decent work... just kidding man, but it is true... sorry to tell you the bad news, but i already own nuke.net :^P jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 19:01:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA04241 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04222 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (localhost.lan.awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA01631; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:03:52 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199704150103.CAA01631@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 14 Apr 1997 17:11:17 PDT." <199704150011.RAA19967@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:03:51 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If nobody actively maintains X.25 then it dies, period. > > Who is actively maintaining "more"? Should it die and go away? 8-). Everyone actively maintains "more". X.25 is different - it's a bit more tricky to test - especially if you havn't got an X.25 board :) -- Brian , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 19:05:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA04478 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p40.tfs.net [206.154.183.232]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA04471 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA09877; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:04:15 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704150204.VAA09877@argus> Subject: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:04:15 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704150017.RAA19999@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 14, 97 05:17:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > > > I agree with Jordan - this is getting quite out of hand. > > > > > > Aw, Jordan *always* says that about any topic which touches a nerve; > > > > No, I say that about truly STUPID topics which are accomplishing > > nothing. Since you seem to pick an inordinate number of stupid topics > > to waste *incredible* amounts of time on (and achieve nothing), you > > get the "shaddup!" response more than most. Don't go looking for > > obscure secondary causes when the principle cause is staring you in > > the face, Terry. > > Funny that you are the primary source of the "shaddup"'s, if they are > egalitarian "shaddup"'s... my original intention was not to start a "holy war", but to wake people up as to the fact that lin[s]ux however bad or good has plenty of commercial development going for it, and why... everyone seems to have got tripped up on one paragraph such that they forgot the rest of the message... let's get to the point... let's get off our butts and get FreeBSD recognized by professional developers and software companies... bs like this thread isn't going to do it... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 19:09:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA04757 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04752 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA08059; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3352E2C0.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:06:56 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSA Challenge Situation Report... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > Hi... > > As of 5:30ADT, here is how things are looking for the RSA Cracking > Challenge. Notice the steady increase in computers on suck.it.ca *and* > the steady improvement of our standings... > > well I've started up 4 P6-200 machien son it but they always get "connection refused" about 80% of the time they ask for a key or try report results.. at the moment it seems to be totally off-line what gives? julian From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 19:10:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA04883 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA04872 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA14298; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:08:22 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:08:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-Reply-To: <199704150011.RAA19967@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Your point, as usual, is more or less correct but fundamentally >> useless. You must be a mathematician or something. :-) > >Physicist; far more practical than mathematicians. Theoretical or experimental? There is a difference. :-) Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 19:14:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA05129 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p40.tfs.net [206.154.183.232]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA05117 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA09903; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:12:45 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704150212.VAA09903@argus> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: nate@rocky.mt.sri.com Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:12:44 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704150155.UAA09851@argus> from "Mail Delivery Subsystem" at Apr 14, 97 08:55:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > > Linux is more available for users, and a lot of its users have no > > > clue, how to use it. > > > > Ugh. I take exception here. It sounds like you are claiming Linux > > users mostly come from installations of CDROM's from bookstores, instead > > of from the net. Net availability is equal, if different. > > Actually, I'd agree with that statement. *MOST* Linux users install > from CDROMS. If it weren't that way I'd argue that Linux would not be > as popular as it is, since their network installations are just > recently as easy as the FreeBSD installation. They essentially copies > the FreeBSD install to do network installations. ditto... putting the cd-roms on the shelves of computers-r-us(tm) is what got lin[s]ux it's biggest user base... try to find FreeBSD anywhere... you'll find lin[s]ux cds in 99 out of 100 computer/software stores though, every mall in america... not doing this was a big marketing mistake on behalf of FreeBSD... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 19:29:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA06272 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p40.tfs.net [206.154.183.232]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA06267 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA09928; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:28:57 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704150228.VAA09928@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: brian@awfulhak.org (Brian Somers) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:28:56 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704150103.CAA01631@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> from "Brian Somers" at Apr 15, 97 02:03:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > > If nobody actively maintains X.25 then it dies, period. > > > > Who is actively maintaining "more"? Should it die and go away? 8-). > > Everyone actively maintains "more". X.25 is different - it's a bit > more tricky to test - especially if you havn't got an X.25 board :) like i said in an earlier message, i will at least get a variant of X.25 running, and have the means to test it, although AX.25 is not necessarily "normal" X.25, it is probably the world's most popular variant... almost everyone on this list could probably get the capability for a few hundred dollars [one-time cost] and a day or two of studying for the license... nodes exist in almost every major city on the planet, as well as the arctic, antarctic, every ocean, countless satellites, as well as a certain manned space station, not to mention the radio backbones which criss cross BFE in almost every country on the planet [except maybe N. Korea], even where phone service is nonexistant... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 19:59:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA08241 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (metriclient-10.uoregon.edu [128.223.172.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08234 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA17801; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19970414195903.38779@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:59:03 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: smc@servtech.com Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Reaching into CVS? References: <335275730.4941@cyber2.servtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <335275730.4941@cyber2.servtech.com>; from smc@servtech.com on Mon, Apr 14, 1997 at 02:14:00PM -0500 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-960801-SNAP i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk smc@servtech.com scribbled this message on Apr 14: > Hello, > > I recently discovered that some fixes were made to the kernel that > affect my activities on FreeBSD. The problem is that I found out > about these changes a few days after they were made, and now the > files have been changed further, requiring me to grab more of the > L&G than I want (I'd like to stay as close to 2.2.1R as possible). > > Is there any way I can get previous versions of files in the source > tree? check out the CVSWeb interface at http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi... -- John-Mark Cu Networking Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 20:07:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA08802 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08793 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA22464; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:06:04 -0700 (PDT) From: The Devil Himself To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <7551.861068752@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Funny that you are the primary source of the "shaddup"'s, if they are > > egalitarian "shaddup"'s... > > Most others are probably too polite to say anything. I do not suffer > from the excess-of-politeness problem and if you're opening > encouraging everyone on the hackers list to feel more free to tell you > to shut up when you're raving on at length on some inconsequential > topic, I'm sure they'll be happy to oblige you. > > Jordan Well, neither I (nor anyone who knows me ;)) will ever place me the the excess-of-politeness category. I just can't really justify 'shaddup' since I know that, at some point, I will start going on and on and on... about some irrelevancy, and I don't enjoy shaddup's directed at me any more than Terry. Of course this thread has gone on a little too long; so, probably, have many others. Irrelevancies are what email was originally designed for, I'm convinced. Of course, this thread HAS yielded some rather interesting material for my BSD vs Linux page (http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd/bsdvlin.htm). If anyone think's I've missed some important point/mail, send it to me w/ an idea of where in the sequence (if it matters) you think it should go, and I'll stick it in there. Now, after my little commercial blurb, I'll return you to your regularly scheduled program... ;) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* |FreeBSD is good. FreeBSD is our friend. UNIX is our god.| *Micro$oft is bad. Micro$oft causes problems.* |MicroBSD??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!| |"I hate quotes in signature files" :-} MAtthew Fuller| *fullermd@narcissus.ml.org FreeBSD junkie* |http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd Westminster College| *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 20:31:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA10297 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10290 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA03080; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:00:54 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704150330.NAA03080@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-Reply-To: <199704150228.VAA09928@argus> from Jim Bryant at "Apr 14, 97 09:28:56 pm" To: jbryant@tfs.net Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:00:54 +0930 (CST) Cc: brian@awfulhak.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jim Bryant stands accused of saying: > almost everyone on this list could probably get the capability for a > few hundred dollars [one-time cost] and a day or two of studying for > the license... ... don't make the (mistaken) assumption that amateur licenses are as easy to get outside the USA as they are inside. Having said that, I still plan to do something as soon as I stop living in a flat 8) > jim -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 20:36:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA10623 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA10613 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA12597 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:34:06 -0700 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA11691; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jandrese.async.vt.edu (jandrese.async.vt.edu [128.173.20.208]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA14395; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:39:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason Andresen X-Sender: jandrese@jandrese.async.vt.edu To: jbryant@tfs.net Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-Reply-To: <199704150146.UAA09806@argus> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Jim Bryant wrote: =)i wish vi would die too... =) =)setenv VISUAL emacs =)setenv EDITOR emacs Please don't start this Holy War, we already have one going on. Some people like vi, live with it. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::. . . . . ..:::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: Jason Andresen :. . . . . . . . . : Web and FTP server at :: :: jandrese@vt.edu :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:: jandrese.async.vt.edu :: :.........................: Quote of the day :..........................: A day without sunshine is like a day without orange juice. :::::::::::.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.........................:.:.:.:.:.:.:.::::::::::: From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 20:39:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA10897 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (w2xo.pgh.pa.us [206.210.70.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10877 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by w2xo.pgh.pa.us (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA10567; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3352F86E.2781E494@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:39:26 -0400 From: Jim Durham Organization: Dis- X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jbryant@tfs.net CC: Pedro Giffuni , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers References: <199704140402.XAA08120@argus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jim Bryant wrote: > > > well, x.25 is not my favorite thing in the world, but i have ulterior > motives... to get freebsd out amongst some forward thinking hams... > also, of course, to have a kernel level AX.25 interface to my own > equipment, it would greatly simplify doing TCP/IP encapsulation... > (snip!) > > such a kernel driver is highly desirable... if there wasn't a market > for it, i wouldn't be wasting my time, your time, or the -core's > time... I'll volunteer to help. I'm running AX25 using a user-level program on 2.1.7, which I'm planning to try to make into a decent port, but I've been thinking about native AX25 stuff for a while. My question is whether it should be part of the kernel or implemented as a line discipline, which it really is...like SLIP. regards, Jim Durham, (W2XO) From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 20:50:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11686 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA11679 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA01548; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:50:06 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:50 EDT Received: from lakes.water.net (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.water.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA28554; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.water.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) id UAA28404; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:47:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199704150047.UAA28404@lakes.water.net> To: ponds!erlenstar.demon.co.uk!andrew, ponds!freebsd.org!hackers Subject: Re: ahc problems w/ xcdplayer? Cc: ponds!ss1000.ms.mff.cuni.cz!vmen3237 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Gierth writes: > >>>>> "Vladimir" == Vladimir Mencl, MK, susSED > writes: > > > On 14 Apr 1997, Andrew Gierth wrote: > >> Selecting "play" on xcdplayer for the *second* time locks the machine > >> dead. Before it dies, though, it emits these messages: > > Vladimir> I've the exactly same problem. I thought that it could be > Vladimir> because of an too weak power supply (I've 3 harddisks, 2 > Vladimir> floppy drives, a tapedrive and a SCSI cd), but it seems > Vladimir> that it's something in the drivers... > > I think I've sorted it. > > The core problem seems to be timeouts in scsi/cd.c that are too short. The > msfplay command was being issued, but timing out; the ahc driver in 2.2.1R > then ties itself in knots and dies.... > > (As near as I can tell, on my hardware the command is taking very close to > 2s to complete, and the timeout is 2s. This seems to confuse the heck out > of the driver....) > > The problem doesn't happen with "play" because the timeout for that is > longer (20s). > > My solution for now is to change "2000" to "20000" in the call to > scsi_scsi_cmd in cd_play_msf (sys/scsi/cd.c). Seems ok now. > > -- > Andrew. I'm glad to hear that worked for you. When I made the same supposition about my tape drive (which presents the same symptoms) I was wrong... in testing it (changing timeouts in st.c to *very* large numbers) it continued to demonstrate the "tieing itself in knots" syndrome. - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 21:04:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA12181 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caipfs.rutgers.edu (root@caipfs.rutgers.edu [128.6.91.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12166 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jenolan.caipgeneral (jenolan.rutgers.edu [128.6.111.5]) by caipfs.rutgers.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA10432; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jenolan.caipgeneral (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA01046; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:00:26 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:00:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199704150400.AAA01046@jenolan.caipgeneral> From: "David S. Miller" To: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: (message from The Devil Himself on Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:06:04 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. ---------------------------------------------//// Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & //// 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s //// ethernet. Beat that! //// -----------------------------------------////__________ o David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 21:13:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA12565 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (w2xo.pgh.pa.us [206.210.70.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12557 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by w2xo.pgh.pa.us (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA10681; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3353002D.15FB7483@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:12:29 -0400 From: Jim Durham Organization: Dis- X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chuck Robey CC: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Re: floppy disks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey wrote: (snip!) > floppy into the drive, do a DIR. I take that floppy out, put another one > in, then do another DIR. I get the listing from the first disk. The > only way to get it to update is to remove the floppy completely, do the > DIR, let it time out, and then reinsert the floppy (the new DIR gives > results for the new floppy inserted). Somehow, changing floppies isn't > detected. > Well, this is really a FreeBSD list, but...assuming you're having similar problems with "mdir", (a standard "mount" shouldn't have this problem)... Pin 33 of the 34 pin cable on a floppy drive is "disk change". A good place to start looking. As I recall, some drives have a jumper to use this pin for other purposes. (Also, control-c should reset it on DOS without all the grief).8) regards, Jim Durham From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 21:23:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA12981 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12973 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA23318; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:22:05 -0700 (PDT) From: The Devil Himself To: "David S. Miller" cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <199704150400.AAA01046@jenolan.caipgeneral> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, David S. Miller wrote: > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > > ---------------------------------------------//// > Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & //// > 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s //// > ethernet. Beat that! //// > -----------------------------------------////__________ o > David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< Yeah, but I haven't seen very many FreeBSD vs. MicroMonopoly anything come across the lists; prob because the people sending the messages to these lists have already decided to go for free UNIX, and want to know which they should go for. I'm not authoring a persuasive webpage; I don't hav e that much free time. I'm just compiling all the vs inux mails so I can point more questions to the web page, instead of re-inventing the wheel. If I found a couple good FreeBSD/Linux/SCO/free UNIX vs. Mico-stuff mails, I'd create a page for that too. Plus, some of these FreeBSD vs Linux mails are so darn funny, they HAVE to be saved for posterity...;) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* |FreeBSD is good. FreeBSD is our friend. UNIX is our god.| *Micro$oft is bad. Micro$oft causes problems.* |MicroBSD??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!| |"I hate quotes in signature files" :-} MAtthew Fuller| *fullermd@narcissus.ml.org FreeBSD junkie* |http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd Westminster College| *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 21:27:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA13260 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA13247 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caipfs.rutgers.edu by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA24764 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:25:38 -0700 Received: from jenolan.caipgeneral (jenolan.rutgers.edu [128.6.111.5]) by caipfs.rutgers.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA11815; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jenolan.caipgeneral (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA01070; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:22:48 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:22:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199704150422.AAA01070@jenolan.caipgeneral> From: "David S. Miller" To: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from The Devil Himself on Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:22:05 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:22:05 -0700 (PDT) From: The Devil Himself Plus, some of these FreeBSD vs Linux mails are so darn funny, they HAVE to be saved for posterity...;) Humorous at first glance or not, it creates bad blood. This was the point I was trying to make with my previous mail. ---------------------------------------------//// Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & //// 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s //// ethernet. Beat that! //// -----------------------------------------////__________ o David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 21:27:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA13262 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA13249 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA27507; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:55:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:55:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704150155.TAA27507@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <199704150017.RAA19999@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <7086.861060449@time.cdrom.com> <199704150017.RAA19999@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Funny that you are the primary source of the "shaddup"'s, if they are > egalitarian "shaddup"'s... Naw, him and I both. I tell you to 'shaddup' as much as he does, and you listen to both of us as much (ie; not at all). Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 21:48:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA14625 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-11.mail.demon.net (relay-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.137]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA14614 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from erlenstar.demon.co.uk ([194.222.144.22]) by relay-11.mail.demon.net id aa1121923; 15 Apr 97 5:41 BST Received: (from andrew@localhost) by erlenstar.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA04042; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:41:52 +0100 (BST) To: Thomas David Rivers Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ahc problems w/ xcdplayer? References: <199704150047.UAA28404@lakes.water.net> From: Andrew Gierth In-Reply-To: Thomas David Rivers's message of Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:47:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Mayan-Date: Long count = 12.19.4.1.9; tzolkin = 6 Muluc; haab = 7 Pop X-Attribution: AG Date: 15 Apr 1997 05:41:51 +0100 Message-ID: <87sp0sx5gw.fsf@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Thomas" == Thomas David Rivers writes: Thomas> When I made the same supposition about my tape drive (which presents Thomas> the same symptoms) I was wrong... in testing it (changing timeouts Thomas> in st.c to *very* large numbers) it continued to demonstrate the Thomas> "tieing itself in knots" syndrome. See also news.software.nntp, where a couple of different people have reported news-server crashes with 2.2.1R and Adaptec cards. -- Andrew. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 21:52:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA15061 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA15018 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem17.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.47]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA24317; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:51:06 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <335323F9.60AD@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:45:19 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David S. Miller" CC: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) References: <199704150400.AAA01046@jenolan.caipgeneral> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David S. Miller wrote: > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > Anyone thinking of a new logo with a trident traversing a penguin these days? :-) I don't know where this anti-Linux war came from, and I don't like it either. But to be honest this wars are started by Linux users that don't understand Linux is MOT UNIX: in fact it's not even an OS, it's a kernel a nacissist wrote and that is supported by some guys that openly admit they are not UNIX. Anyway, why not continue this interesting discussion in the chat list ? I am not subscribed there. Pedro. > ---------------------------------------------//// > Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & //// > 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s //// > ethernet. Beat that! //// > -----------------------------------------////__________ o > David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 22:08:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA15968 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15960 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id AAA00309; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:07:18 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704150507.AAA00309@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <199704150400.AAA01046@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at "Apr 15, 97 00:00:26 am" To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:07:18 -0500 (EST) Cc: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > I just don't see the Anything vs. Anything argument. It is usually trolls that get things started :-). I just work on and specify what is applicable to me and the market that I encounter. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 22:09:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16039 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16033; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA23815; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:09:53 -0700 (PDT) From: The Devil Himself To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: "David S. Miller" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <199704150507.AAA00309@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > > free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > > interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > > just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > > > I just don't see the Anything vs. Anything argument. It is usually > trolls that get things started :-). I just work on and specify what > is applicable to me and the market that I encounter. > > John Also true. I'm just catalogging and archiving stuff from the more popular useless debates so I can say 'hey, look at http://blah.blah.blah...', instead of having everyone start yelling again. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* |FreeBSD is good. FreeBSD is our friend. UNIX is our god.| *Micro$oft is bad. Micro$oft causes problems.* |MicroBSD??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!| |"I hate quotes in signature files" :-} MAtthew Fuller| *fullermd@narcissus.ml.org FreeBSD junkie* |http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd Westminster College| *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 22:39:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA17676 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p20.tfs.net [206.154.183.212]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA17671 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA10762; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:39:46 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704150539.AAA10762@argus> Subject: Re: floppy disks To: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:39:46 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <3353002D.15FB7483@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> from "Jim Durham" at Apr 15, 97 00:12:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Chuck Robey wrote: > (snip!) > > floppy into the drive, do a DIR. I take that floppy out, put another one [snip] > (Also, control-c should reset it on DOS without all the grief).8) I thought that was for CP/M ???!!! At least the CP/M on my old Vector 5005 S-100 box used to do it that way on a disk change :^) [three terminals, 192k bank-switched [16k x 1's], multi-user CP/M, three serial ports, Centronics port, 16 [hard] sectored 5.25" floppy drive, ST-506 hard drive [whopping 5 Megs!], 18 S-100 slots, well-filtered power supply with a transformer bigger than most US Navy anchors, on a blazing fast Z80B running a steamy 6 MHz]!!! jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 22:49:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18210 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p20.tfs.net [206.154.183.212]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18201 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA10808; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:49:41 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704150549.AAA10808@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:49:40 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <3352F86E.2781E494@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> from "Jim Durham" at Apr 14, 97 11:39:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Jim Bryant wrote: > > > > well, x.25 is not my favorite thing in the world, but i have ulterior > > motives... to get freebsd out amongst some forward thinking hams... > > also, of course, to have a kernel level AX.25 interface to my own > > equipment, it would greatly simplify doing TCP/IP encapsulation... > > > (snip!) > > > > such a kernel driver is highly desirable... if there wasn't a market > > for it, i wouldn't be wasting my time, your time, or the -core's > > time... > > I'll volunteer to help. I'm running AX25 using a user-level program > on 2.1.7, which I'm planning to try to make into a decent port, but > I've been thinking about native AX25 stuff for a while. okay, no problem.. > My question is whether it should be part of the kernel or implemented > as a line discipline, which it really is...like SLIP. i was originally thinking along the same lines...like ppp/slip, but then the original netccitt drivers that would be an ideal starting point.. so far i have been informed of working X.25 netccitt drivers that lack AX.25, and that could be where i start... > Jim Durham, (W2XO) send me some mail sometime... kv5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam wv0t just set me up with forwarding/reverse forwarding... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 22:53:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18418 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18409; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA04996; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:55:04 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:55:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: The Devil Himself cc: dyson@freebsd.org, "David S. Miller" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, The Devil Himself wrote: > > > > > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > > > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > > > free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > > > interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > > > just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > > > > > I just don't see the Anything vs. Anything argument. It is usually > > trolls that get things started :-). I just work on and specify what > > is applicable to me and the market that I encounter. > > > > John > > Also true. I'm just catalogging and archiving stuff from the more popular > useless debates so I can say 'hey, look at http://blah.blah.blah...', > instead of having everyone start yelling again. Surprisingly enough none of my posts made it to that page even though I deserve 60% of blame for starting this argument here. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 22:55:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA18535 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p20.tfs.net [206.154.183.212]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18530 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA10889; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:55:51 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704150555.AAA10889@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian N. Handy) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:55:50 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: from "Brian N. Handy" at Apr 14, 97 09:16:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > From: "Brian N. Handy" sounds like Ft. Worth will be a boom town again!!! F-22 > You write [previous flames deleted...] > > > >almost everyone on this list could probably get the capability for a > >few hundred dollars [one-time cost] and a day or two of studying for > >the license... nodes exist in almost every major city on the planet, > >as well as the arctic, antarctic, every ocean, countless satellites, > >as well as a certain manned space station, not to mention the radio > >backbones which criss cross BFE in almost every country on the planet > >[except maybe N. Korea], even where phone service is nonexistant... > > Hey, maybe you've sold me! (I have my Advanced license and I haven't used > it in quite a while.) don't waste it! > Is there a book (better) or a web page (worse) you could point me at to > understand better what this is all about? Is this packet we're talking > about? > > Thanks, > > brian > KA7SKW yeah! for starters, try www.tapr.org... the ARRL has books on the subject too.. www.kantronics.com is another... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 23:05:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA18938 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA18922 for ; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem20.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.50]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA24383; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:05:22 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33532ACA.29EE@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:14:18 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David S. Miller" CC: The Devil Himself , terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Devil Himself wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, David S. Miller wrote: > > > > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > Yeah, but I haven't seen very many FreeBSD vs. MicroMonopoly anything come > across the lists; prob because the people sending the messages to these Well ...there's a small detail here; this Pepsi vs. Coke pages are not targetted only to Linux users. There's also a good (but already outdated) comparison between NetBSD and FreeBSD, and I can give quite many testimonials of FreeBSD vs. Slowlaris, and FreeBSD vs AIX. Pedro. > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > |FreeBSD is good. FreeBSD is our friend. UNIX is our god.| > *Micro$oft is bad. Micro$oft causes problems.* > |MicroBSD??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!| > |"I hate quotes in signature files" :-} MAtthew Fuller| > *fullermd@narcissus.ml.org FreeBSD junkie* > |http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd Westminster College| > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 14 23:06:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA19009 for hackers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA18989; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 23:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id QAA13952; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:02:00 +1000 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:02:00 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704150602.QAA13952@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: danny@panda.hilink.com.au, yonny@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co Subject: Re: Two ppp connections under serial ports... Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >But I can't to establish on both ports ppp connections at sametime, only >in one. For 2 ppp connections you need at least 2 ppp interfaces. The commented out example in GENERIC only gives 1. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 00:57:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA23427 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de (krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.132.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA23421 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (krygier@localhost) by krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15032 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:57:40 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de: krygier owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:57:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Klaus Werner Krygier To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: special memory device Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Perhaps some one of you can give me some hints to solve following problem with FreeBSD: I am using an ISA-VMEbus interface which allows access to VMEbus hardware by a FreeBSD-PC. For the PC it is a conventional ISA card which occupies 64 KB at the physical address 0xd0000. It is very easy to access this memory location and by this parts of the VMEbus using /dev/mem and mmap(). Everything works fine. But now the problem: For our applications a memory window of 64 KB is to small. We need access to several megabytes. The interface allows to move this window to any location in the VMEbus address space. But for that purpose special programming is needed which is not acceptable in our case because we want to use exisiting software which can't be rewritten. This software uses the interface of SunOS/Solaris where a special memory device (e.g. /dev/vmed16a24) can be mmaped and allows in a very simple way memory mapped i/o on the complete VMEbus from any user applicaiton. Now I want to install a similar device which is compatible to the Sun solution. It will never be used by read/write i/o but only by mmaped i/o. It shall be able to do a dynamic remapping of the VMEbus window every time an address is accessed which is out of the current 64 KB window using the page fault mechanism. Is this possible? Unfortunately I found no solution of a similar problem in any existing device driver of FreeBSD. Are there any other examples? What's about documentation of kernel software? I will thank you for any hints to solve this problem. Klaus Werner Krygier +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dr. Klaus Werner Krygier | Email: krygier@kph.uni-mainz.de | | Institut für Kernphysik | | | Johannes Gutenberg-Universität | Tel: +49-6131-39-2960 | | J.J.Becher-Weg 45 | +49-6131-39-5192 | | D-55099 Mainz | Fax: +49-6131-39-2964 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 01:48:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26455 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26428 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ida.interface-business.de (ida.interface-business.de [193.101.57.203]) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA23571 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:48:39 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by ida.interface-business.de (8.8.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id KAA01893 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:49:17 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: ida.interface-business.de: j set sender to j@uriah.heep.sax.de using -f Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00587; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:25:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970414212506.CK17865@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:25:06 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: file i/o from device driver? References: <199704140752.AAA00950@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704140752.AAA00950@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Apr 14, 1997 00:52:23 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty wrote: > We have a couple of video capture drivers and was wondering what would it > take to pass a file handle to a driver so it can write the captured frames > to a file? Sounds like a hack, but i think ktrace is doing something similar. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 01:48:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26461 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26431 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ida.interface-business.de (ida.interface-business.de [193.101.57.203]) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA23575 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:48:40 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by ida.interface-business.de (8.8.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id KAA01895 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:49:18 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: ida.interface-business.de: j set sender to j@uriah.heep.sax.de using -f Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00695; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:49:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970414214951.ZM17956@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:49:51 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <199704140653.BAA00534@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Belits on Apr 14, 1997 01:34:35 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Alex Belits wrote: > distribution vendors. Sorry to mention it, I have yet to see Linux > distribution that had xterm using wtmp format from one version and the > rest of system from another. It's been an accident that FreeBSD 2.2.0 shipped with the wrong X11 for some time, but accidents happen, don't they? This has been fixed. I've also got a confirming mumble in the XFree86 group that Linux once had the same problem internally when extending their utmp structure. The mere reason for these problems is that things like libutil are barely usable or often missing in particular in the commercial systems, thus xterm is hacking its own of them. If libutil would have provided a consistent and usable interface in the first place (see the inconsistencies between login(3) and logout(3)), the utmp structure would have been opaque to the application. We aren't living in an ideal world however. (And note, IIRC, Linux's libc recently added the functions of BSD's libutil, too, resulting out of our experience.) > > Actually, I find alot of #ifdef FreeBSD and configure's that work directly > > with FreeBSD. Much software works directly out of the box directly from > > the vendor/developer. > > Then why "port" it? Because you haven't understood the idea behind the ports collection yet. Go and read the handbook. A port is not necessarily a wild collection of patches, but ideally doesn't contain a patch at all (about 1/10th of our current ports doesn't have patches, and a good number only patches things like config files, or the Makefile definition to activate the FreeBSD option). Instead, the most important part of a port is the package files that allow to keep track of the installed packages, and the Makefile that concentrates all information about this port (where to find the original source, whether it's using imake, GNU autoconf etc.). > Yes -- if you want to always keep up with OS development. Some people > like that, but most of them prefer to have something stable and do minimal > upgrades for functionality/security fixes, hardware changes and major OS > improvements. Yep, that's why there will be other 2.2.x releases, for sure. > > Or a bunch of distributions with a bunch of different > > combinations of shared libs and apps (and kernel versions, Linux)? > > Linux is more tolerant to versions changes of components because its > design assumes that things should remain compatible. Interesting. The struct utmp changes weren't causing half the hassles to the users as Linux's a.out -> ELF move (and we all know how `compatible' this move was for the users), so what are you whining about? Both changes were necessary at some point. Btw., the struct utmp changes are not part of any FreeBSD release yet. Thus, if you're affected by them, except of the mentioned accident above, you must be running -current. If you're running -current, you are expected to be a developer, not a mere user. If you are a developer, you are expected to have at least enough knowledge to handle rebuilding some parts of the system. I still don't get your whining. It took me a few hours to convert my system to the new wtmp format by that time (and there was enough of warning before), it probably took me longer to write the converter tool for the wtmp formats mentioned below (which i mainly did as a service to the users). There's a tool to help moving your old wtmp files. When the time is ready to think about a 3.0-RELEASE, we must finally have found the time to also think about better upgrade solutions than we are currently offering. Part of this will be the offer to also convert the old wtmp files. Maybe the utmp handling will change again until then (which could be rational since the existing utmp file is still a large pile of crap, with its hardcoded table slots). But still, only developers should be affected until then. > And all distributions that I know, update > kernel/libraries simultaneously. You mean all FreeBSD distributions? Yes, they do. Hmm, well, there's only one? Na, still, this one does. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 01:48:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26476 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26435 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ida.interface-business.de (ida.interface-business.de [193.101.57.203]) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA23580 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:48:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by ida.interface-business.de (8.8.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id KAA01897 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:49:19 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: ida.interface-business.de: j set sender to j@uriah.heep.sax.de using -f Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00712; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:52:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970414215204.YZ61624@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:52:04 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <3.0.32.19970413214534.00b3b9e0@etinc.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Christoph Haas on Apr 14, 1997 10:35:40 +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph Haas wrote: > To come back to my original question: How do you want to attract vendors > and convince them that FreeBSD is a high quality product ? My idea, > starting with some kind of support for vendors, doesn't semm to make it > here, ... It's not that it ``doesn't seem to make it'', but that it's been unrealistic in the presented form. Again, i can imagine a service to subscribe interested parties to just the part of the commit mailing lists, in order to track those fields of the system they are most interested in. Would this help somebody? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 01:49:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26500 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26443 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ida.interface-business.de (ida.interface-business.de [193.101.57.203]) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA23584 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:48:42 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by ida.interface-business.de (8.8.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id KAA01899 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:49:20 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: ida.interface-business.de: j set sender to j@uriah.heep.sax.de using -f Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00726; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:55:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970414215550.KK19956@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:55:50 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <199704140313.WAA07958@argus> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Christoph Haas on Apr 14, 1997 11:02:28 +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph Haas wrote: > Allright. Now that I've followed the discussion for a while, I'm going to > setup a registration desk for commercial vendors. Its success depends of Appreciated! > whether you (the developers) try to help me a little bit or not. All I ask > from you is to leave me a little note if you break something seriuosly. I Well, the problem with this is, you often don't know that you're breaking something, let alone that it might be something very important for a particular vendor. Things like the utmp change are obvious, but there was no secret about it. Other things are hidden gotchas, where it will only be apparent afterwards that they might have broken some compatibility. I still remember the numerous small fixes to the shell that sometimes broke compatibility to previously existing features. This breakage wasn't intended, thus no form of warning was possible. That's the kind of things that must be ironed out in -current (but sometimes even sneak into a release since the number of people testing -current is more limited than those of testing releases). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 01:49:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA26550 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA26485 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 01:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ida.interface-business.de (ida.interface-business.de [193.101.57.203]) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA23562; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:48:37 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by ida.interface-business.de (8.8.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id KAA01889; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:49:15 +0200 (MEST) X-Authentication-Warning: ida.interface-business.de: j set sender to j@uriah.heep.sax.de using -f Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00555; Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:21:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970414212122.VV36149@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:21:22 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers) Cc: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <199704140653.BAA00534@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704140653.BAA00534@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Apr 14, 1997 01:53:02 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John S. Dyson wrote: (I have somehow missed the article John was replying to, thus i'm commenting both here.) > > there is one "distributor" for FreeBSD -- Walnut Creek, but it doesn't > > really organize or supports anything of that kind). > > > I am not involved with WC, but I heard that they do have support. Yep, they now officially announce that they support their customers, on the CD cover. They did `inofficial' support for quite some time before. > > and not fall apart instantly, distribution that supports upgrades > > that could be done by user with minimal knowledge about OS internals > > > You mean the kernel of the week syndrome? Nope, John, we seriously lack a good upgrade system. Jordan has been throwing some ideas around, i've also got something in mind regarding the /etc merges, but nobody ever really put any energy into organizing a usable upgrade system. The existing `upgrade' option in sysinstall is nothing else but a stop-gap measure. It basically works, and gives people some form of an upgrade path, but it's far from being a Good Thing. > > Both Linux and FreeBSD change fast, although FreeBSD comes in one > > monolithic distribution, and any attempt to get something fixed throws > > user into -CURRENT (no pun intended but it seems appropriate) with all its > > instability and experiments around. > > > Not true, 2.2.X is a new released codebase. It isn't -current. Things get > fixed in the 2.2.X base. Right, and i'd also like to point out that there's always the possibility to read the commit logs and extract any patch you'd like at least via the WWW interface. Not to speak of the CVS tree, as John already mentioned. Mind you, i'm also operating a small ISP here, that's where my private internet access goes. The servers there run FreeBSD (big surprise :), and of course, we aren't maintaining them on any sort of a patch-of- the-week basis. However, we occasionally apply security and functional patches to the system as required, without doing a `make world', or other heavy-weight actions. One example of a functional patch that was quickly applied was Bruce's fix for the broken SLIP behaviour. I still remember the days when i've been developing on commercial systems, and the many times where i've been seriously wanting this ability, to fix just one thing that was urgent for me, without upgrading an entire machine. Now, i can even get the source patches by the operating system ``vendor''. > > FreeBSD technically is a nice OS. Organization of its development and > > distribution looks umm... unhealthy. Funny. You didn't notice that most of our userbase who know both, Linux and BSD, and have chosen BSD in the end, did it since they found its development better organized? Only few people care about benchmarks or that. > You mean a central group of people who are trying to maintain quality and > branding (FreeBSD)? Or a bunch of distributions with a bunch of different > combinations of shared libs and apps (and kernel versions, Linux)? I prefer > a coherent development path/group. It is pretty good that we have > 70+- committers that can modify the tree directly, and don't have chaos. > In fact, we are pretty well organized. I've also done commercial software development at my previous employer, and i must now say that the degree of organization, the CVS repository maintenance (hi Peter :), the quality of the resulting code, the general mutual agreement of how things are done, etc. are _way_ advanced compared to the commercial development. For the latter, there was a constant time pressure leading to releasing code where you as the developer knew that it wasn't ready for prime-time (and trust me, this hurts, and finally gets you into an apathic state about the quality of your code). There often have been heated discussions about relatively minor things like a style guide. The internationally distributed FreeBSD project has currently spent maybe 5 hours into discussing stylistic issues, around the time when we emitted style(9). That's with 70-odd developers. At said software development company, we were about 15 developers, distributed at two locations 650 km away, and we've been spending hours and hours into a style guide, with loads of paper where style(9) is just nothing compared to. Needless to say, we could never agree on anything generally acceptable, simply since the chief developer attempted to press his ideas of good style to all the other people, totally ignoring that stylistic problems are personality problems you cannot regulate up to the last TAB. And, it was never possible to even use CVS there, since some of the upper-level guys were too conservative about it. RCS was all that was to be, and i finally (by a time when i've already been about to leave them) proved that they've got a problem by locking some of the sources for the duration of my own development when i knew that another group of people also needed to access them. :-] (By that time, i've already been a FreeBSD committer, and thus knew how much better things were going with CVS.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 02:11:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA28016 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA28011 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from father.ludd.luth.se (dateck@father.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.18]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA16020 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:11:34 +0200 From: Tomas Klockar Received: (dateck@localhost) by father.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) id LAA20096 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:11:32 +0200 Message-Id: <199704150911.LAA20096@father.ludd.luth.se> Subject: tcsh IS broken To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:11:32 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I have reported this before. tcsh is broken, it worked in 2.1.5-RELEASE it refuses to work in 2.2.1-RELEASE. It didn't work in 2.2-GAMMA either. This is my .tcshrc umask 022 set noclobber set path=( ~/bin /usr/local/bin /bin /usr/bin /usr/X11R6/bin /sbin /usr/sbin \ /usr/share/games /usr/games . ) setenv SHELL /usr/local/bin/tcsh setenv PAGER "more" setenv LD_LIBRARY_PATH "/usr/X11R6/lib:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib" setenv TEXFONTS /usr/local/lib/tex/fonts/pk if ( $?prompt ) then set prompt="%n@%m %~ %#" set ignoreeof set history=100 set mail=/var/mail/$USER set fignore=(.o .out .elc \~) # new variables in version 6.00.03 set autoexpand set autolist set chase_symlinks set ignore_symlinks set matchbeep=nomatch set printexitvalue set prompt2="%R: end with 'end' :" set recexact set watch=(1 any any) set who="%w %D, %T: %S%n%s has %a %S%l%s from %m." unset autologout source ~/.aliases stty pass8 stty erase ^? mesg y setenv LC_CTYPE sv_SE.ISO_8859-1 # setenv LD_LIBRARY_PATH /usr/X11R6/lib:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib # alias specific to tcsh(1) a ls 'ls-F' if ($?SOURCE) then source $SOURCE Execute the file named by $SOURCE endif if it is set (normally it isn't) if ( -r ~/.bindalias ) then setenv HOSTALIASES ~/.bindalias set hostcompletions = ( `awk '/^[ ]*[^#]/{print $1}' "$HOME/.bindalias "` ) complete ftp 'p/1/$hostcompletions/' complete ntalk 'p/1/$hostcompletions/' complete talk 'p/1/$hostcompletions/' complete ytalk 'p/1/$hostcompletions/' complete finger 'p/1/$hostcompletions/' complete telnet 'p/1/$hostcompletions/' complete tf 'p/1/$hostcompletions/' complete rsh 'p/1/$hostcompletions/' complete rlogin 'p/1/$hostcompletions/' endif endif -------------------------------------------------------------------- If you use this file together with tcsh it will stop after the line setenv LC_CTYPE sv_SE.ISO_8859-1 . version info on tcsh version tcsh 6.07.02 (Astron) 1996-10-27 (i386-intel-FreeBSD) options 8b,nls,dl, al,rh This were working in old tcsh (The one that came with 2.1.5). Could the person responsible for tcsh check this out, or anyoneelse that have the time, I'm just getting tired of getting then: then/endif not found And by the way the error message changes if the line after setenv LC_CTYPE sv_SE.ISO_8859-1 is changed. Best regards, /Tomas -- Tomas Klockar can be found at the following adresses: Kårhusvägen 4:23 | Furuvägen 102 | dateck@ludd.luth.se 977 54 Luleå | 871 52 Härnösand | dateck@solace.mh.se Tel: +46-920-231335 | Tel: +46-611-13393 | d94-tkl@sm.luth.se From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 02:43:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA29342 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nyx.pr.mcs.net (nyx.pr.mcs.net [204.95.55.81]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA29337 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nyx.pr.mcs.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nyx.pr.mcs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA03061 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:43:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704150943.EAA03061@nyx.pr.mcs.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: inline asm question.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:43:37 -0500 From: Chris Csanady Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am trying to create an inline asm function, and was wondering if someone might help. I am getting quite frustrated with all of the cryptic gcc/as commands, and still have no clue as to how it translates into instructions. All I wanted to do was to make the below inline function generate the following code. (It is a piece from one of Van Jacobsons mails..) I realize this is for sparc, but it really doesnt matter.. /* NB - ocadd is an inline gcc assembler function */ cksum = ocadd(ocadd(ocadd(ocadd(cksum, seq), ack), flg), sum); addcc %l3,%o0,%o3 addxcc %l4,%o3,%o3 addxcc %l2,%o3,%o3 addxcc %l0,%o3,%o3 Pretty much all it does is add with carry. Simple, eh? I have been far from sucessful at getting gcc to produce code this concise. First of all, its never really inline--always "call"s a subroutine. Secondly, the function always manipulates the stack pointer and pushes various other things around. The above becomes more than an order of magnitude larger.. So, how on earth does one get rid of all the associated overhead of my supposedly inline function? If anyone would care to comment, or even post the 2 lines of code, I would really appreciate it. I'd like to do some more useful stuff, but I can never get around all the little cryptic semantics of inlines and asms and such. Thanks, Chris Csanady From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 02:46:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA29523 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mixcom.mixcom.com (mixcom.mixcom.com [198.137.186.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA29517 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mixcom.mixcom.com (8.6.12/2.2) id EAA15164; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:46:50 -0500 Received: from p75.mixcom.com(198.137.186.25) by mixcom.mixcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma015155; Tue Apr 15 09:46:42 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970415043856.00b43ef8@mixcom.com> X-Sender: sysop@mixcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:38:57 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: "Jeffrey J. Mountin" Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers Cc: Terry Lambert , jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 06:42 PM 4/14/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: --snip-- >> Who is actively maintaining "more"? Should it die and go away? 8-). > >An excellent example. For my side of the argument! :) > >more, if it broke, would be quickly fixed (by someone, me if no one >else) because so many people use it that it would also be quickly >noted. If X.25 broke and nobody noticed it for a year, then obviously >X.25 is in the "rarely if ever used" pile and probably need to go >away. QED. Not sure if a system (2.1.6 or .7?) was corrupt, but more was broke. The system was wiped clean, as another system on the same revision worked. Point being I use more and less. Less has to be added, more comes with. --snip-- ------------------------------------------- Jeff Mountin - System/Network Administrator jeff@mixcom.net MIX Communications Serving the Internet since 1990 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 02:52:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA29864 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mixcom.mixcom.com (mixcom.mixcom.com [198.137.186.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA29857 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mixcom.mixcom.com (8.6.12/2.2) id EAA15532; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:53:51 -0500 Received: from p75.mixcom.com(198.137.186.25) by mixcom.mixcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma015528; Tue Apr 15 09:53:23 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970415044539.00b43ef8@mixcom.com> X-Sender: sysop@mixcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:45:39 -0500 To: jbryant@tfs.net From: "Jeffrey J. Mountin" Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 08:46 PM 4/14/97 -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: >In reply: >> Who is actively maintaining "more"? Should it die and go away? 8-). > >from ~/.cshrc >----------------- >... >setenv PAGER less >setenv MORE less >... >alias more less >... > >i wish vi would die too... > >setenv VISUAL emacs >setenv EDITOR emacs Do you have emacs on a startup disk? Can you, no. PICO is the norm and in some cases VI and I consider PICO an adolescent brother of JOE. Vi does not was lines showing what to press, which means more useful display. Vi is KISS compliant. ;-) --snip-- ------------------------------------------- Jeff Mountin - System/Network Administrator jeff@mixcom.net MIX Communications Serving the Internet since 1990 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 02:56:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA00204 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inter03.lion.net ([195.50.148.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00190 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 02:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucky.lion.de ([192.109.89.2]) by inter03.lion.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA6382; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:53:19 +0200 Received: from willi.lion.de by lucky.lion.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id LAA28706; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:54:50 +0200 Received: from localhost by willi.lion.de (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03851; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:53:27 +0200 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:53:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: Christoph Haas To: Terry Lambert Cc: Christoph Haas , dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, haas@lion.de Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <199704142034.NAA19260@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I really think that our view of FreeBSD is too technical. We should start > > to care about what people are doing with it, not only thinking of what > > features to add next. > > > A big part of this is, IMO, taking care to not break things unnecessarily, > either by not exposing the internals of things we intend to change, or > not changing the things for which we have exposed internals. Agreed, but isn't most of FreeBSD "exposed internals" ? Whoever wants to can read in the sources looking at how things are implemented. And if he relies on those internals instead of defined interfaces to certain services, he can be sure that his code breaks next time someone commits a change to these internals. Christoph -- Christoph Haas o.tel.o GmbH | Never trust an operating UNIX Sysadmin Universitaetsstrasse 140| system you don't have the 44799 Bochum / Germany | sources for. mailto:haas@lion.de http://www.o-tel-o.de | http://www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 03:31:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA01541 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA01536 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA21336; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:31:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id MAA02370; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:49:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Christoph Kukulies Message-Id: <199704151049.MAA02370@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Subject: Re: RSA Challenge Situation Report... In-Reply-To: <3352E2C0.41C67EA6@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Apr 14, 97 07:06:56 pm" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:49:38 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: scrappy@hub.org, rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > Hi... > > > > As of 5:30ADT, here is how things are looking for the RSA Cracking > > Challenge. Notice the steady increase in computers on suck.it.ca *and* > > the steady improvement of our standings... > > > > > well I've started up 4 P6-200 machien son it but they always get > "connection refused" about 80% of the time they ask for a > key or try report results.. > > at the moment it seems to be totally off-line Yes, you're right. I started my PPRO yesterday afternoon and after a couple of blocks being calculated I have this in my log file: get_keyspace: Connection refused rc5-56-client: Error getting key. rc5-56-client: Sleeping 2 minutes... rc5-56-client: The Bovine Proxy KeyServer (Build 1458) rc5-56-client: Received Keyspace Mask 0x0000000FFFFFFF rc5-56-client: Start Key 0x1E7AAA30000000, trying 268435456 keys. rc5-56-client: Processed 251182.74 keys per second. rc5-56-client: Keyspace Exhausted in 17.81 minutes. rc5-56-client: [0x1E7AAA30000000 -> 0x1E7AAA3FFFFFFF] end_keyspace: Connection refused rc5-56-client: Notifying Key Server ``suck.it.ca'' rc5-56-client: Error notifying server. rc5-56-client: Sleeping 1 minute... end_keyspace: Connection refused rc5-56-client: Notifying Key Server ``suck.it.ca'' rc5-56-client: Error notifying server. rc5-56-client: Sleeping 1 minute... > > > what gives? The server seems to be down. > > julian > -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 03:34:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA01796 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA01788; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:34:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704151034.DAA01788@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: [RSA] RSA Challenge Situation Report... To: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Cc: julian@whistle.com, scrappy@hub.org, rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704151049.MAA02370@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> from "Christoph Kukulies" at Apr 15, 97 12:49:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > Yes, you're right. I started my PPRO yesterday afternoon and > after a couple of blocks being calculated I have > this in my log file: > > end_keyspace: Connection refused > rc5-56-client: Notifying Key Server ``suck.it.ca'' > rc5-56-client: Error notifying server. > rc5-56-client: Sleeping 1 minute... > end_keyspace: Connection refused > rc5-56-client: Notifying Key Server ``suck.it.ca'' > rc5-56-client: Error notifying server. > rc5-56-client: Sleeping 1 minute... > try kidsat-pc.jpl.nasa.gov never had to wait for a key since i restarted my machines jmb From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 03:52:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA02300 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA02293 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA26382; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:52:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 03:52:09 -0700 (PDT) From: The Devil Himself To: "Jeffrey J. Mountin" cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970415044539.00b43ef8@mixcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Jeffrey J. Mountin wrote: > Do you have emacs on a startup disk? Can you, no. PICO is the norm and in > some cases VI and I consider PICO an adolescent brother of JOE. > > Vi does not was lines showing what to press, which means more useful display. > > Vi is KISS compliant. ;-) > > --snip-- EMACS for word proc type things. I write papers and my resume in emacs. PICO for programming. I write C in PICO. VI for system level stuff. I write .tcshrc, /etc/rc, use chpass, VIpw, etc. using VI. 'Nuff siad; proper division of power and passing of the torch. > ------------------------------------------- > Jeff Mountin - System/Network Administrator > jeff@mixcom.net > > MIX Communications > Serving the Internet since 1990 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* |FreeBSD is good. FreeBSD is our friend. UNIX is our god.| *Micro$oft is bad. Micro$oft causes problems.* |MicroBSD??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!| |"I hate quotes in signature files" :-} MAtthew Fuller| *fullermd@narcissus.ml.org FreeBSD junkie* |http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd Westminster College| *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 04:31:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA04358 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA04352 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA22165; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:30:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id NAA02614; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:48:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:48:28 +0200 From: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de (Christoph Kukulies) To: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, julian@whistle.com, scrappy@hub.org, rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] RSA Challenge Situation Report... References: <199704151034.DAA01788@freefall.freebsd.org> <199704151049.MAA02370@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.58e Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199704151034.DAA01788@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Apr 15, 1997 03:34:48 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler writes: > Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > > > Yes, you're right. I started my PPRO yesterday afternoon and > > after a couple of blocks being calculated I have > > this in my log file: > > > > end_keyspace: Connection refused > > rc5-56-client: Notifying Key Server ``suck.it.ca'' > > rc5-56-client: Error notifying server. > > rc5-56-client: Sleeping 1 minute... > > end_keyspace: Connection refused > > rc5-56-client: Notifying Key Server ``suck.it.ca'' > > rc5-56-client: Error notifying server. > > rc5-56-client: Sleeping 1 minute... > > > > > try kidsat-pc.jpl.nasa.gov > never had to wait for a key since i restarted my machines Well, I just learnt (by Marc Fournier) it would be better to use all the same server in a group. Maybe they have a severe outage? > jmb -- --Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 04:59:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA05515 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-44.netcom.ca [207.181.94.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA05508 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id IAA02782; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:59:03 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:59:03 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker Reply-To: The Hermit Hacker To: Julian Elischer cc: rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RSA Challenge Situation Report... In-Reply-To: <3352E2C0.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > Hi... > > > > As of 5:30ADT, here is how things are looking for the RSA Cracking > > Challenge. Notice the steady increase in computers on suck.it.ca *and* > > the steady improvement of our standings... > > > > > well I've started up 4 P6-200 machien son it but they always get > "connection refused" about 80% of the time they ask for a > key or try report results.. > > at the moment it seems to be totally off-line > > > what gives? suck.it.ca turns out to be totally unstable. Part of the problem is that they are behind Sprint, and are losing routes left, right and center :( But right now, its just down :( I've switched my client over to bovine.st.hmc.edu and have never lost of connection. Try one of: site last update # of hosts connected vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvv vvv rc5.best.net (proxy PetrDoubt) 2 mins ago 979 alde.com (proxy AldE) 6 mins ago 133 opus.rh1.iit.edu (proxy Duncan) 7 mins ago 118 rc5.slacker.com (proxy Nugget94) 2 mins ago 289 outland.hway.net (proxy EA) 6 mins ago 347 kidsat-pc.jpl.nasa.gov (proxy Bovine) 17 mins ago 64 Bovine.ST.HMC.Edu (proxy Bovine) 0 mins ago 90 Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 05:29:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA06666 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA06656 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 05:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dbws.etinc.com (dbws.etinc.com [204.141.95.130]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA07973; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970415082618.006d345c@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:26:22 -0400 To: Terry Lambert , jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) From: dennis Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers Cc: terry@lambert.org, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 05:11 PM 4/14/97 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >> > Again, the existing X.25 code did not change, FreeBSD did. It is not >> > the code which is unusable by FreeBSD, it is FreeBSD which i incapable >> > of using the code. >> >> Yeah, sure. As usual, you fail to distinguish between the practical >> realities and your idealized vision of How It Should Be(tm). > >On the contrary, I not only make the distinction, I note the magnitude >of the dicrepancy. > >I still disagree with your definition of "practical reality", by the >way: it's nothing more than a cop out. > >> If nobody actively maintains X.25 then it dies, period. For anyone that cares X.25 != AX.25, so why this discussion? db From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 06:38:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA09678 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA09651 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704151338.GAA09651@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA257201018; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:30:18 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:30:17 +1000 (EST) Cc: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704150400.AAA01046@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Apr 15, 97 00:00:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In some mail from David S. Miller, sie said: > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations with real budgets. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 06:39:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA09796 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inter03.lion.net ([195.50.148.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA09790 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 06:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucky.lion.de ([192.109.89.2]) by inter03.lion.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA8840; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:36:39 +0200 Received: from willi.lion.de by lucky.lion.de (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id PAA00756; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:38:11 +0200 Received: from localhost by willi.lion.de (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA13323; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:37:59 +0200 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:37:59 +0200 (MET DST) From: Christoph Haas To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry In-Reply-To: <19970414215550.KK19956@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > > whether you (the developers) try to help me a little bit or not. All I ask > > from you is to leave me a little note if you break something seriuosly. I > > Well, the problem with this is, you often don't know that you're > breaking something, Right, but that's ok. I want to be informed if you break something on purpose. If you, for example, know that you are going to break the syntax of a certain command or a kernel structure, then why not drop me a short note about it ? Of course you are not supposed to tell me "everything that might break today, tommorow, next week or not at all". Just obvious changes... > let alone that it might be something very > important for a particular vendor. Well, that's what I wanted certain information from registered vendors for. If they tell me that they rely on certain parts of the kernel or on userland commands, I can inform them about chnages in the next RELEASE. > Things like the utmp change are > obvious, but there was no secret about it. Other things are hidden > gotchas, where it will only be apparent afterwards that they might > have broken some compatibility. Shit happens ;-). But if it's allready broken, vendors can send their complaints to me, and I'll try to dispatch them. So if we find a bug in the PCI subsystem, I would forward the report to Stefan Esser (just an example. No, don't beat me, Stefan!!) We can't expect every vendor to know who is responsible for what part of the system. So we should provide a single "help desk". Christoph -- Christoph Haas o.tel.o GmbH | Never trust an operating UNIX Sysadmin Universitaetsstrasse 140| system you don't have the 44799 Bochum / Germany | sources for. mailto:haas@lion.de http://www.o-tel-o.de | http://www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 07:14:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA11532 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itu.cc.jyu.fi (root@itu.cc.jyu.fi [130.234.40.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11500; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by itu.cc.jyu.fi (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA27558; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:14:25 +0300 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:14:25 +0300 (EET DST) From: Seppo Kallio Reply-To: Seppo Kallio To: hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org cc: isp@freebsd.org Subject: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Please reply if you are running a heavy loaded News server. We have Pentium Pro 200 + 128M RAM + 3*4G IBM Wide + 2940 + 3COM 590 + Linux RedHAt 4.1 !!! running inn in heavy load and it does not work (kernel 2.0.30 not at all, kernel 2.0.27 maybe) System is slowing down and at last it hangs. What kind of experience you have about FreeBSD + inn, what is the version of inn + FreeBSD you use? Does it work? What about ccd? Linux mcd seems not to work, or maybe Linux 2940 driver has some problems (is it same as in FreeBSD). Seppo Kallio kallio@cc.jyu.fi U of Jyvaskyl Finland From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 07:44:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13244 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13238 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id JAA00188; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:43:14 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704151443.JAA00188@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <199704151338.GAA09651@freefall.freebsd.org> from Darren Reed at "Apr 15, 97 11:30:17 pm" To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:43:14 -0500 (EST) Cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In some mail from David S. Miller, sie said: > > > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > > free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > > interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > > just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > with real budgets. > That is changing. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 07:50:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13531 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA13526 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 07:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from 0@sinbin.demos.su [194.87.0.31] with ESMTP id SAA04468; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:49:50 +0400 Received: by sinbin.demos.su id SAA17603; (8.6.12/D) Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:48:45 +0400 From: bag@sinbin.demos.su (Alex G. Bulushev) Message-Id: <199704151448.SAA17603@sinbin.demos.su> Subject: Re: mbuf clusters problem in 2.2.1R To: mishania@demos.su Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:48:45 +0400 (MSD) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704141643.UAA22556@skraldespand.demos.su> from "Mikhail A. Sokolov" at Apr 14, 97 08:43:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > now output of "netstat -m" 11 Apr 13:07 (4 min before crash) > > 14911 mbufs in use: > 13719 mbufs allocated to data > 1176 mbufs allocated to packet headers > 14 mbufs allocated to protocol control blocks > 2 mbufs allocated to socket names and addresses > 11062/11070 mbuf clusters in use > 24003 Kbytes allocated to network (-74% in use) > ^^^^^^^ ?????????????????? i found that negative value is a result of wrong types in netstat sources. Patch attached at the end of this letter ... > > now output of "netstat -m" 11 Apr 13:10 (1 min before crash) > > 18053 mbufs in use: > 16818 mbufs allocated to data > 1219 mbufs allocated to packet headers > 14 mbufs allocated to protocol control blocks > 2 mbufs allocated to socket names and addresses > 14042/14060 mbuf clusters in use > ^^^^^^^^^^^???????????????????????????????????????????? this value not understandable for me now ... NMBCLUSTERS=12288 in kernel config but 14060 > 12288 ............ > 30376 Kbytes allocated to network (-38% in use) > ^^^^????????????????????? now patch to netstat mbuf.c module for negative percents ... this one for 2.2.1R ... ---------------------------------------------------------------- *** mbuf.c Tue Apr 15 17:52:31 1997 --- mbuf.c.orig Tue Apr 15 17:49:22 1997 *************** *** 79,85 **** mbpr(mbaddr) u_long mbaddr; { ! register u_long totmem, totfree, totmbufs; register int i; register struct mbtypes *mp; --- 79,85 ---- mbpr(mbaddr) u_long mbaddr; { ! register int totmem, totfree, totmbufs; register int i; register struct mbtypes *mp; *************** *** 96,119 **** totmbufs = 0; for (mp = mbtypes; mp->mt_name; mp++) totmbufs += mbstat.m_mtypes[mp->mt_type]; ! printf("%lu mbufs in use:\n", totmbufs); for (mp = mbtypes; mp->mt_name; mp++) if (mbstat.m_mtypes[mp->mt_type]) { seen[mp->mt_type] = YES; ! printf("\t%lu mbufs allocated to %s\n", mbstat.m_mtypes[mp->mt_type], mp->mt_name); } seen[MT_FREE] = YES; for (i = 0; i < nmbtypes; i++) if (!seen[i] && mbstat.m_mtypes[i]) { ! printf("\t%lu mbufs allocated to \n", mbstat.m_mtypes[i], i); } printf("%lu/%lu mbuf clusters in use\n", mbstat.m_clusters - mbstat.m_clfree, mbstat.m_clusters); totmem = totmbufs * MSIZE + mbstat.m_clusters * MCLBYTES; totfree = mbstat.m_clfree * MCLBYTES; ! printf("%lu Kbytes allocated to network (%lu%% in use)\n", totmem / 1024, (totmem - totfree) * 100 / totmem); printf("%lu requests for memory denied\n", mbstat.m_drops); printf("%lu requests for memory delayed\n", mbstat.m_wait); --- 96,119 ---- totmbufs = 0; for (mp = mbtypes; mp->mt_name; mp++) totmbufs += mbstat.m_mtypes[mp->mt_type]; ! printf("%u mbufs in use:\n", totmbufs); for (mp = mbtypes; mp->mt_name; mp++) if (mbstat.m_mtypes[mp->mt_type]) { seen[mp->mt_type] = YES; ! printf("\t%u mbufs allocated to %s\n", mbstat.m_mtypes[mp->mt_type], mp->mt_name); } seen[MT_FREE] = YES; for (i = 0; i < nmbtypes; i++) if (!seen[i] && mbstat.m_mtypes[i]) { ! printf("\t%u mbufs allocated to \n", mbstat.m_mtypes[i], i); } printf("%lu/%lu mbuf clusters in use\n", mbstat.m_clusters - mbstat.m_clfree, mbstat.m_clusters); totmem = totmbufs * MSIZE + mbstat.m_clusters * MCLBYTES; totfree = mbstat.m_clfree * MCLBYTES; ! printf("%u Kbytes allocated to network (%d%% in use)\n", totmem / 1024, (totmem - totfree) * 100 / totmem); printf("%lu requests for memory denied\n", mbstat.m_drops); printf("%lu requests for memory delayed\n", mbstat.m_wait); From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 08:20:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA15245 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA15234 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA23818; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:20:05 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:20 EDT Received: from lakes.water.net (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.water.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA04535; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.water.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) id IAA29779; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:23:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199704151223.IAA29779@lakes.water.net> To: ponds!zyzzyva.com!randy, ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers Subject: Re: (*my* problems found...yours?) NFS problems - it doesn't appear to be ep0. Cc: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Since 2.2-GAMMA a new flag has been added to the sysctl. > By setting vfs.nfs.nfs_privport=0, NFS works fine. For some reason, > the NFS server is booting with vfs.nfs.nfs_privport=1. Can anyone > explain the use of this parameter? I would expect it to mean that the NFS port is < 1024 (those are reserved on UNIX)... The default should be 1 as that is the normal behaviour. Setting it to 0 corrected your problems? Were you getting hang-ups, or just not working at all? I don't think it will alter the path through the kernel in my case, but I'll try it out and report back... - Dave Rivers - > > #> sysctl vfs > vfs.nfs.nfs_privport: 0 > vfs.nfs.async: 0 > vfs.nfs.defect: 0 > vfs.nfs.diskless_valid: 0 > vfs.nfs.diskless_rootpath: > vfs.nfs.diskless_swappath: > > > > Dan Nelson writes: > > > In the last episode (Apr 11), Thomas David Rivers said: > > > > > > > > Well, regarding my NFS hang-ups to HP/UX 9.05 and Sunos 4.1.3 > > > > systems (this is 2.2.1 as of April 8th). > > > > > > > > I replaced my 3c509 with a 3c900 and was able to demonstrate > > > > the same lock up. > > > > > > > > It appears to be related to a readdir(), as only ls -l causes > > > > the file system hang. A 'cat' of large files (quite large) > > > > doesn't seem to have the same effect. > > > > > > > > I set the readdirsize down to 1024 with the -I argument on > > > > the mount, but that didn't seem to affect it. > > > > > > I've seen this problem on 3com cards myself - both 3c509 (ep) and 3c905 > > > (vx) cards. I get packet overruns, RX overruns, and fifo underruns > > > when trying NFS accesses. With tcpdump on another machine, I can see > > > that only the first two or three fragments of an 8K NFS packet ever get > > > out. 3com's spec sheet for the 3c905XL 100BT card states it has only > > > an 8K buffer, partitioned by default at 4K/4K transmit/receive! > > > > > ... > > > I solved my particular problem by getting Intel EtherExpress Pro/100B > > > cards, which have worked flawlessly. The 3com cards are now in DOS > > > machines. > > > > > > -Dan Nelson > > > dnelson@emsphone.com > > > > > > > Yes, but, this exact hardware worked flawlessly in 2.1.5. So, > > I'm betting something in 2.2.1 is tickling this problem... > > > > - Dave Rivers - > > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 08:36:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA16484 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [199.184.181.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA16479 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.pcs. [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA15199; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:16:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id KAA19874; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:03:20 -0500 Message-ID: <19970415100320.12729@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:03:20 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Darren Reed Cc: "David S. Miller" , fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) References: <199704150400.AAA01046@jenolan.caipgeneral> <199704151338.GAA09651@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199704151338.GAA09651@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Darren Reed on Apr 04, 1997 at 11:30:17PM +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 04, 1997 at 11:30:17PM +1000, Darren Reed wrote: > > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > with real budgets. Then maybe you need an enlightened upper management person. :-) The business I work for uses Oracle databases on Sequent machines for our 'mission critical' point of sale support. However, almost all database reporting and manipulation; ie: 'critical' things like daily profit statements, bi-weekly salary & commission payments, and sales tracking is done in perl. We moved our salary/commission history records (which we are required to maintain for about 5 years) from microfiche onto a FreeBSD machine (v2.1.0R), running a free sql-like database, accessed via perl. I would say that this is an example of using "free", "non-supported" tools in a mission-critical environment. However, as the company has about 3000 employees, you may very well consider them to be "small". -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 08:47:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA17013 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA16916 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10083; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:29:35 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:29:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Yonny Cardenas To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: OK. Two ppp connections under serial ports... In-Reply-To: <199704150944.LAA18781@nietzsche.bowtie.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The two ppp connections is OK. I've now two ppp devices on my kernel config file: > pseudo-device ppp 2 Thanks Yonny Cardenas B. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 08:51:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA17407 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA17392 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dolphin.inna.net (jamie@dolphin.inna.net [206.151.66.2]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA02034; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:02:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <7086.861060449@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Can't we all just get along...? On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > God I love a good religious battle, don't you? > > > > > > I agree with Jordan - this is getting quite out of hand. > > > > Aw, Jordan *always* says that about any topic which touches a nerve; > > No, I say that about truly STUPID topics which are accomplishing > nothing. Since you seem to pick an inordinate number of stupid topics > to waste *incredible* amounts of time on (and achieve nothing), you > get the "shaddup!" response more than most. Don't go looking for > obscure secondary causes when the principle cause is staring you in > the face, Terry. > > Jordan > Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 09:08:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA18105 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.ge.com (ns.ge.com [192.35.39.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18098; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomas.ge.com (thomas.ge.com [3.47.28.21]) by ns.ge.com (8.8.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28721; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from crissy.gemis.ge.com (crissy-ether.gemis.ge.com [3.29.7.204]) by thomas.ge.com (8.8.4/8.7.5) with SMTP id MAA23441; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from carsdb.salem.ge.com (carsdb.salem.ge.com [3.29.7.15]) by crissy.gemis.ge.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA07488; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:00:53 -0400 Received: from combs.salem.ge.com (combs.salem.ge.com [3.29.5.200]) by carsdb.salem.ge.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01254; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (steve@localhost) by combs.salem.ge.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25957; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:58:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Stephen F. Combs" To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: Darren Reed , davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <199704151443.JAA00188@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes it IS changing! I work for GE Motors & Industrial Systems and we use FreeBSD for mission-critical stuff ALL the time (IBM M/F Print Spoolers, Remote DNS servers, SMTP E-Mail masters, etc......). ---- Stephen F. Combs Internet: CombsSF@Salem.GE.COM GE Industrial Systems Voice: 540.387.8828 Network Services Home: CombsSF-Home@Salem.GE.COM 1501 Roanoke Blvd FAX: 540.387.7106 Salem, VA 24153 LapTop: CombsSF-Mobile@Salem.GE.COM On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:43:14 -0500 (EST) > From: "John S. Dyson" > Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org > To: Darren Reed > Cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, > jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) > > > In some mail from David S. Miller, sie said: > > > > > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > > > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > > > free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > > > interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > > > just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > > > > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > > with real budgets. > > > That is changing. > > John > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 09:36:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19703 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-17.netcom.ca [207.181.94.81]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19647; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id NAA15538; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:35:49 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:35:48 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Seppo Kallio cc: hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Seppo Kallio wrote: > > Please reply if you are running a heavy loaded News server. > > We have Pentium Pro 200 + 128M RAM + 3*4G IBM Wide + 2940 + 3COM 590 > > + Linux RedHAt 4.1 !!! > > running inn in heavy load and it does not work (kernel 2.0.30 not at all, > kernel 2.0.27 maybe) System is slowing down and at last it hangs. > > What kind of experience you have about FreeBSD + inn, what is the version > of inn + FreeBSD you use? > > Does it work? > > What about ccd? Linux mcd seems not to work, or maybe Linux 2940 driver > has some problems (is it same as in FreeBSD). I'm running a FreeBSD 2.2 box with 96Meg of RAM and about 13 peers, with 7 drives CCD'd together over 2 NCR SCSI controllers...and am happy to report that other then a memory problem (hardware), that machine is rock solid... Oh, its a 486DX4-100, not a PPro... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 09:40:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20063 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20058 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id CAA04356; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:34:50 +1000 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:34:50 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704151634.CAA04356@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bag@sinbin.demos.su, mishania@demos.su Subject: Re: mbuf clusters problem in 2.2.1R Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> 11062/11070 mbuf clusters in use >> 24003 Kbytes allocated to network (-74% in use) >> ^^^^^^^ ?????????????????? > >i found that negative value is a result of wrong types in netstat sources. Actually, it is caused by overflow bugs. Multiplication by 100 only works for ints <= INT_MAX / 100 and unsigned longs <= ULONG_MAX / 100. This is easily fixed using floating point (except on weird machines with DBL_MAX < INT_MAX * 100). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 09:51:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20790 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20785 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04914 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704151651.JAA04914@austin.polstra.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: mmap vs. disk errors Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:51:15 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What happens if an application has a file mapped into memory and tries to access part of it, but the kernel can't bring the pages into memory because of a disk error (bad block in the file)? -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 10:22:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22462 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22457 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29559 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:22:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:22:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199704151722.MAA29559@plains.nodak.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: optical drives Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there anything special (besides adding od0 to kernel configuration) that needs to be done to get optical drives to work? I place an optical drive on a Adaptec 2940, every access I can think of using causes a integer divide by zero panic. BTW, check_part() in sys/i386/isa/diskslice_machdep.c does not check if the number of sectors per cylinder is 0 before doing an integer divide. I am only begon to trace why this number is zero when od_open() was building the label, I thought these numbers were okay. --mark. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 10:26:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22863 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA22858 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA22532; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:04:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151704.KAA22532@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:04:04 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <7532.861068566@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 14, 97 06:42:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I still disagree with your definition of "practical reality", by the > > way: it's nothing more than a cop out. > > Fine, have it your way. If refusing to live in a state of permanent > denial is "copping out" then cop out I most definitely shall. Yiou're the one denying possibility by citing practicality, not me. > more, if it broke, would be quickly fixed (by someone, me if no one > else) because so many people use it that it would also be quickly > noted. If X.25 broke and nobody noticed it for a year, then obviously > X.25 is in the "rarely if ever used" pile and probably need to go > away. And "more" can't "break"... it depends on POSIX system calls and standardized libraries. If what X.25 depended on had also been standardized, then this conversation would not be happening, since it would not have "broken". > QED. It "being gone" demonstrates nothing other than it is gone. > You're dreaming. I can load a copy of RedHat 4.1, a Linux > distribution with significant "organizational backing", and point to > about 4 major things that are broken (on their Linux/ALPHA > distribution, for example, you can't even build a working kernel with > supplied sources). So point them out to Red Hat. I'm sure they'll be fixed. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 10:27:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22983 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA22969 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA22544; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:04:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151704.KAA22544@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: brian@awfulhak.org (Brian Somers) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:04:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704150103.CAA01631@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> from "Brian Somers" at Apr 15, 97 02:03:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > If nobody actively maintains X.25 then it dies, period. > > > > Who is actively maintaining "more"? Should it die and go away? 8-). > > Everyone actively maintains "more". X.25 is different - it's a bit > more tricky to test - especially if you havn't got an X.25 board :) Tunnel it over TCP. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 10:31:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23473 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23464 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA25754; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:30:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Darren Reed cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller), fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:30:17 +1000." <199704151338.GAA09651@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:30:16 -0700 Message-ID: <25750.861125416@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > with real budgets. You may be surprised. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 10:33:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23710 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23678 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA22578; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:11:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151711.KAA22578@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) To: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org (The Devil Himself) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:11:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "The Devil Himself" at Apr 14, 97 09:22:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yeah, but I haven't seen very many FreeBSD vs. MicroMonopoly anything come > across the lists; prob because the people sending the messages to these > lists have already decided to go for free UNIX, and want to know which > they should go for. Actually, it's more like they've already decided that Microsoft is going to win, so they are in it for the pyrric moral victory. If you watch the threads in which I've been shouted down for any length of time, you'll recognize the common thread of "Oh, we just can't afford to compete! Oh, there's too much short term risk!". Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 10:37:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA24065 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA24057 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA22594; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:14:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151714.KAA22594@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:14:39 -0700 (MST) Cc: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704150422.AAA01070@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at Apr 15, 97 00:22:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Plus, some of these FreeBSD vs Linux mails are so darn funny, they > HAVE to be saved for posterity...;) > > Humorous at first glance or not, it creates bad blood. This was the > point I was trying to make with my previous mail. They have value other than humor. Their value is that when A compares unfavorably to B, it motivates A to get off their laurels (or their fat butts, whichever they are resting on), and *fix* the problem. Sometimes, this type of comparison is the *only* way to motivate action... laurels are (apparently) quite comfortable; so comfortable that people would rather rest on them than act where action is needed. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:03:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25726 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25721 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wHCZc-0001FP-00; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:03:20 -0600 To: "David S. Miller" Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 00:22:48 EDT." <199704150422.AAA01070@jenolan.caipgeneral> References: <199704150422.AAA01070@jenolan.caipgeneral> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:03:20 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199704150422.AAA01070@jenolan.caipgeneral> "David S. Miller" writes: : Humorous at first glance or not, it creates bad blood. This was the : point I was trying to make with my previous mail. I for one am greatly impressed by the level of maturity the Linux folks in this discussion. There has been a lot of bad blood created over the years and I think this will help to turn it around. There is much that can be learned from each other's efforts. Linux has done some very creatinve and innovative things over the years, and we should not loose sight of that fact. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:06:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25956 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from computer.eng.mindspring.net (computer.eng.mindspring.net [207.69.183.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25949 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ahobson@localhost) by computer.eng.mindspring.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA20852; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:05:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Hobson To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) References: <199704150400.AAA01046@jenolan.caipgeneral> <199704151338.GAA09651@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 15 Apr 1997 14:05:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: Darren Reed's message of Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:30:17 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.42/XEmacs 20.1(beta12) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:30:17 +1000 (EST), Darren Reed said: > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > with real budgets. The DNS servers with the eighth largest number of domains (excluding the root servers) are FreeBSD machines. Drew -- "Prayer has no place in school just like facts have no place in organized religion." -- Superindendent Chalmer From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:13:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26481 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA26450; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA22707; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:50:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151750.KAA22707@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: vnode as filesystem (crash!) To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:50:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, toor@dyson.iquest.net, mtaylor@cybernet.com, hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704150122.SAA08126@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Apr 14, 97 06:22:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Also, the NetBSD code has a bug, where it will call the setsize() before > > it tests the length in this particular case... > > ...and it was so kind of you to report it when you noticed it. I'll > make sure and forward this on to the appropriate folks. I just noticed it the night before, and the machine I noticed it on has no way to send mail, and I don't have a current NetBSD tree on this machine. The code in question is in ftruncate() in one of ufs/ffs/*alloc.c, I think ffs_balloc.c. Sorry I can't be more specific. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:15:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26660 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26655 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA21651; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704151816.LAA21651@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: John Polstra cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mmap vs. disk errors In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:51:15 PDT." <199704151651.JAA04914@austin.polstra.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:16:33 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >What happens if an application has a file mapped into memory and tries >to access part of it, but the kernel can't bring the pages into memory >because of a disk error (bad block in the file)? You get a vnode pager error and your application ends up with a SIGBUS. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:17:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26846 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA26841 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA22749; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:56:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151756.KAA22749@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: jbryant@tfs.net Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:56:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704150204.VAA09877@argus> from "Jim Bryant" at Apr 14, 97 09:04:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > let's get to the point... let's get off our butts and get FreeBSD > recognized by professional developers and software companies... bs > like this thread isn't going to do it... How do you propose to bell this cat? It has no neck... Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:17:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26880 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA26871 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA22727; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:54:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151754.KAA22727@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:54:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704150155.TAA27507@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 14, 97 07:55:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Funny that you are the primary source of the "shaddup"'s, if they are > > egalitarian "shaddup"'s... > > Naw, him and I both. I tell you to 'shaddup' as much as he does, and > you listen to both of us as much (ie; not at all). Taking a page from Jordan's book, shouldn't that tell you something about the effectiveness of trying to ignore issues by telling the messenger to "shaddup"? ;-). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:25:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27301 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27290 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA26254; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:23:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:54:31 PDT." <199704151754.KAA22727@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:23:34 -0700 Message-ID: <26251.861128614@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Taking a page from Jordan's book, shouldn't that tell you something > about the effectiveness of trying to ignore issues by telling the > messenger to "shaddup"? ;-). If you were an effective presenter of the issues, the analogy would hold. You're not, so there's no boolean logic at work here. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:29:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27679 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27659 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA22784; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:06:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151806.LAA22784@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian N. Handy) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:06:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Brian N. Handy" at Apr 14, 97 07:08:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Your point, as usual, is more or less correct but fundamentally > >> useless. You must be a mathematician or something. :-) > > > >Physicist; far more practical than mathematicians. > > Theoretical or experimental? There is a difference. :-) Solid state and high energy. So far the high energy is mostly theoretical... zoning laws. ;-). It's funny that at many universities, if you take a statistics class in addition to the other math classes required for a theoretical physics degree, you get an applied math degree for free. There is something strange about theoretical physics being nearly identical to applied math. One has to wonder hard about math theorists... Followups to -chat... Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:33:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28034 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28025 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA22811; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:10:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151810.LAA22811@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:10:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, brian@awfulhak.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704150330.NAA03080@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 15, 97 01:00:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ... don't make the (mistaken) assumption that amateur licenses are as > easy to get outside the USA as they are inside. Having said that, I > still plan to do something as soon as I stop living in a flat 8) A flat what? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:37:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28440 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28432 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA08353; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:38:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:38:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Darren Reed cc: "David S. Miller" , fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <199704151338.GAA09651@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote: > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > with real budgets. Most of decisions of that kind aren't made by upper management in both small and big companies. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:39:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28526 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28521 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01125 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:39:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: More de0 problems. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Argh. I have a P6-200 with 2 DEC DE500-AA's (-AC part num), replacing an SMC card that I was having problems with. My system boots through netstart, gets to "add net default", then craps out with a "Enabling 100baseTX port", and de1: Enabling... Then craps out with an NMI, and drops into the debugger with a "Trap type 19", code=0. Stopped at "tulip_delay_300ns+0x17". Has anybody ported the updated de0 driver to -RELEASE? Any tips appreciated. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:39:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28556 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anacreon.sol.net (anacreon.sol.net [206.55.64.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28547; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solaria.sol.net (solaria.sol.net [206.55.65.75]) by anacreon.sol.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA21198; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:39:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by solaria.sol.net (8.5/8.5) id NAA13821; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:39:11 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199704151839.NAA13821@solaria.sol.net> Subject: Re: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 13:39:09 CDT Cc: kallio@cc.jyu.fi, hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "The Hermit Hacker" at Apr 15, 97 01:35:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL65] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Seppo Kallio wrote: > > Please reply if you are running a heavy loaded News server. > > > > We have Pentium Pro 200 + 128M RAM + 3*4G IBM Wide + 2940 + 3COM 590 > > > > + Linux RedHAt 4.1 !!! A good recipe for a poor news server. You don't need a PPro 200 to do news service. It will mostly sit idle. You could use more RAM and it would make much more of a difference. You don't have enough disks to make a decent spool. Why would you use Wide disks? The 2940 is nice; three NCR-810's are just as nice, and cost the same as the one 2940. Can't say anything about the 3C590; I use DEC-21x4x based stuff and am happy with it. And I'll skip the nasty comment about RedHat 4.1. > I'm running a FreeBSD 2.2 box with 96Meg of RAM and about > 13 peers, with 7 drives CCD'd together over 2 NCR SCSI controllers...and > am happy to report that other then a memory problem (hardware), that machine > is rock solid... > > Oh, its a 486DX4-100, not a PPro... I run newsfeeds.sol.net, a PPro200 / 256MB RAM / 1 NCR-810 / 2 AHA-3940 / 2 Kingston Ethernet's / 21 ST31055N's. It handles over two dozen news peers and is currently ranked the #17th most influential news server in the world. We only got the PPro200 because I couldn't get the other board I wanted... newsfeeds sits 70% idle on average, enough slop space for me to run things like rc5 :-) 1:36PM up 28 days, 4 hrs, 7 users, load averages: 2.35, 2.70, 2.70 USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT jgreco p0 dors:0.0 9:23AM - w [etc] The load is artificially high because I'm running a bunch of other stuff right now... 28 days, it seems quite stable to me. It's a relatively fast box. :-) Breaking all the speed limits on the Information Superhighway, ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:40:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28724 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athena.veritas.com (athena.veritas.com [192.203.46.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28716 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from megami.veritas.com by athena.veritas.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.0 #9) id m0wHD93-000iRaC; Tue, 15 Apr 97 11:39 PDT Received: from sigma by megami.veritas.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.0 #7) id m0wHD92-000iVIC; Tue, 15 Apr 97 11:39 PDT Message-Id: From: Aaron Smith To: John Polstra cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mmap vs. disk errors In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:51:15 PDT." <199704151651.JAA04914@austin.polstra.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:39:54 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 09:51:15 PDT, John Polstra writes: >What happens if an application has a file mapped into memory and tries >to access part of it, but the kernel can't bring the pages into memory >because of a disk error (bad block in the file)? The kernel can't satisfy the request, so you'd have to return an error, but the only way to do that is to fault the access. The app would have to be handed a segv. -- Aaron Smith aaron@veritas.com unless explicitly stated, i do not speak for my employer. support free speech. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:41:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28833 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from altos.rnd.runnet.ru (altos.rnd.runnet.ru [195.208.248.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28826 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from altos.rnd.runnet.ru (altos.rnd.runnet.ru [195.208.248.40]) by altos.rnd.runnet.ru (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA06482 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:40:42 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:40:42 +0400 (MSD) From: Maxim Bolotin To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: EtherJet (IBM) Ethernet card. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! Now We've that computers from IBM, There're IBM PC320. It's EtherJet NIC. (UN) Fortunately IBM has driver for Linux. Now I want make it work under FreeBSD. Can you help me with it. Now I just start to write it. Source of linux driver's here: ftp://ftp.rnd.runnet.ru/incoming/etherjet.tgz Max. - Rostov State University Computer Center Rostov-on-Don, +7 (8632) 285794 or 357476 Russia, RUNNet, MAB1-RIPE max@run.net. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 11:42:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28921 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28911 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA22852; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:19:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151819.LAA22852@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: inline asm question.. To: ccsanady@nyx.pr.mcs.net (Chris Csanady) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:19:57 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199704150943.EAA03061@nyx.pr.mcs.net> from "Chris Csanady" at Apr 15, 97 04:43:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I am trying to create an inline asm function, and was wondering if someone > might help. I am getting quite frustrated with all of the cryptic gcc/as > commands, and still have no clue as to how it translates into instructions. > > All I wanted to do was to make the below inline function generate the > following code. (It is a piece from one of Van Jacobsons mails..) I > realize this is for sparc, but it really doesnt matter.. > > /* NB - ocadd is an inline gcc assembler function */ > cksum = ocadd(ocadd(ocadd(ocadd(cksum, seq), ack), flg), sum); Is it an inline function, or is it a function which has been inlined? I belive you can't inline (using the "inline" keyword) a function with asm statements. Use a macro definition instead to cause the asm statements to be expanded "in line" by the preprocessor. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 12:01:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29744 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-41.netcom.ca [207.181.94.105]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA29687; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id PAA09145; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:59:28 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:59:28 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Joe Greco cc: kallio@cc.jyu.fi, hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? In-Reply-To: <199704151839.NAA13821@solaria.sol.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Joe Greco wrote: > > I'm running a FreeBSD 2.2 box with 96Meg of RAM and about > > 13 peers, with 7 drives CCD'd together over 2 NCR SCSI controllers...and > > am happy to report that other then a memory problem (hardware), that machine > > is rock solid... > > > > Oh, its a 486DX4-100, not a PPro... > > I run newsfeeds.sol.net, a PPro200 / 256MB RAM / 1 NCR-810 / 2 AHA-3940 / > 2 Kingston Ethernet's / 21 ST31055N's. It handles over two dozen news > peers and is currently ranked the #17th most influential news server > in the world. > That's okay...I'm proud of a 104 ranking, considering the box, which is up from 139 in Febuary... :) Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 12:04:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00126 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA00118 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA22888; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:42:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704151842.LAA22888@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: haas@willi.lion.de (Christoph Haas) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:42:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chris@acme1.ruhr.de, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, haas@lion.de In-Reply-To: from "Christoph Haas" at Apr 15, 97 11:53:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > A big part of this is, IMO, taking care to not break things unnecessarily, > > either by not exposing the internals of things we intend to change, or > > not changing the things for which we have exposed internals. > > Agreed, but isn't most of FreeBSD "exposed internals" ? Whoever wants to > can read in the sources looking at how things are implemented. And if he > relies on those internals instead of defined interfaces to certain > services, he can be sure that his code breaks next time someone commits a > change to these internals. That's a different kind of dependency. --- Begin "Old Hacker" shaggy dog story... It's what we used to call "ice fishing" Back In The Good Old Days of hacking, before you had real system source code. You'd "just know" that calling a combination of calls in a particular order would achieve the results you wanted because you saw code that did it and copied what it did. The most well known example of this was the "partial open hack", where you opened a modem control device with O_NDELAY to get it open without DCD being raised, then you did an open without O_NDELAY to get an open without the non-blocking I/O (which you could not turn off, in those days), then you closed the first descriptor. It's very much like ice fishing from two holes with two hooks... Another example was the old "cu" replacements before there was a select or poll call, which used to fork and establish a "reader" and a "writer" process to get two way communication between your terminal and the device. They all broke with the partial open hack after uugetty was introduced (SVR3 uugetty, not SCO uugetty). The new uugetty set O_EXCL on the open, and the partial open hack would bypass the code that would reset it, and the fd would fail to live past the fork (because O_EXCL means only one process could have it open). You had to reset the O_EXCL by doing a blocking open without O_EXCL. So you did a blocking open without O_EXCL, alarmed out of it after one second, and then went into the partial open hack. Life was complicated back then. --- End "Old Hacker" shaggy dog story... The "exposed internals" I was referring to are the internals where the interface is not abstracted from the representational format of the data. The program "ps" is a prime example, as is any program which needs the information it provides, and doesn't popen "ps" to get it. The "ps" program use libkvm to grovel around in the data space of the running kernel. It iterates the active processes, using its knowledge of the size of the proc structure, and several other nasty things which make it highly dependent on the size of a number of kernel data structures not changing. This is especially bad, because the interface for iterating the processes didn't have to be implemented in a struct size dependent way. Applying my maxim, either the proc structure size dependency should not be exposed in the iteration interface, or the size of a struct proc should never be changed. Note: since it's unreasonable to freeze the proc structure, since it would prevent much future progress, the correct application would be to seperate the iteration interface. Eventually, you would want to make such grovelling technically difficult to implement, so that it was rarely, if ever, done. So eventually, you want to get rid of libkvm entirely, and go to functional interfaces (like /proc and sysctl) to get the information. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 12:10:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00375 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anacreon.sol.net (anacreon.sol.net [206.55.64.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00370; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solaria.sol.net (solaria.sol.net [206.55.65.75]) by anacreon.sol.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA21301; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:10:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by solaria.sol.net (8.5/8.5) id OAA13940; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:10:12 -0500 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199704151910.OAA13940@solaria.sol.net> Subject: Re: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 97 14:10:10 CDT Cc: kallio@cc.jyu.fi, hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "The Hermit Hacker" at Apr 15, 97 03:59:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4dev PL65] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I run newsfeeds.sol.net, a PPro200 / 256MB RAM / 1 NCR-810 / 2 AHA-3940 / > > 2 Kingston Ethernet's / 21 ST31055N's. It handles over two dozen news > > peers and is currently ranked the #17th most influential news server > > in the world. > > That's okay...I'm proud of a 104 ranking, considering the box, which > is up from 139 in Febuary... :) Not bad :-) Waaaaiittt... wha...? $ grep 104 top9703.html 104 1.43 newsfeed.kreonet.re.kr $ grep hub.org * top9701.html: 238 0.56 hub.org top9702.html: 139 0.93 hub.org top9703.html: 144 1.04 hub.org $ Ehhhhh reread the stats, guy. :-( That's #144 and 1.04 percent... an improvement in percentage but slippage in the ranking. (One of newsfeeds.sol.net's alter egos is www.us.pathsurvey.eu.org...) It's still impressive to see how many of the Top1K boxes are FreeBSD ones. ;-) ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847 From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 12:18:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01104 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01096 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chess.inetspace.com ([206.50.163.14]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA03262 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kgor@localhost) by chess.inetspace.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA00697; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:16:39 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:16:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704151916.OAA00697@chess.inetspace.com> From: "Kent S. Gordon" To: jbryant@tfs.net CC: brian@awfulhak.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199704150228.VAA09928@argus> (message from Jim Bryant on Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:28:56 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.105) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "jbryant" == Jim Bryant writes: > In reply: >> > > If nobody actively maintains X.25 then it dies, period. > >> > Who is actively maintaining "more"? Should it die and go >> away? 8-). >> >> Everyone actively maintains "more". X.25 is different - it's a >> bit more tricky to test - especially if you havn't got an X.25 >> board :) > like i said in an earlier message, i will at least get a variant > of X.25 running, and have the means to test it, although AX.25 > is not necessarily "normal" X.25, it is probably the world's > most popular variant... > almost everyone on this list could probably get the capability > for a few hundred dollars [one-time cost] and a day or two of > studying for the license... nodes exist in almost every major > city on the planet, as well as the arctic, antarctic, every > ocean, countless satellites, as well as a certain manned space > station, not to mention the radio backbones which criss cross > BFE in almost every country on the planet [except maybe > N. Korea], even where phone service is nonexistant... Could you suggest a couple of possible pieces of equipment and what to study ( and information sources) if someone was interested in doing this. I looked at www.arrl.org. Is the technician class license the correct one ( I would prefer not to have to relearn morse code)? What is the best way to find other local people doing packet radio? > jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be > pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | > briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell > WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - > KC5VDJ 2-meter, 70cm - KPC-3 Plus packet capable Kent S. Gordon Senior Software Engineer INetSpace Co. voice: (972)851-3494 fax:(972)702-0384 e-mail:kgor@inetspace.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 12:33:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04335 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04323 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA26313; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3353D692.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:27:14 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Reed CC: "David S. Miller" , fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) References: <199704151338.GAA09651@freefall.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Darren Reed wrote: > > In some mail from David S. Miller, sie said: > > > > Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > > Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > > free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > > interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > > just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > with real budgets. I have a a couple of counterexamples for you but of course they are probably not commonly known because they don't WANT it commonly known.. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 12:38:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04711 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04699 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA26404; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3353D79C.167EB0E7@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:31:40 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Lemon CC: Darren Reed , "David S. Miller" , fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) References: <199704150400.AAA01046@jenolan.caipgeneral> <199704151338.GAA09651@freefall.freebsd.org> <19970415100320.12729@right.PCS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Then maybe you need an enlightened upper management person. :-) > > The business I work for uses Oracle databases on Sequent machines for our > 'mission critical' point of sale support. However, almost all database > reporting and manipulation; ie: 'critical' things like daily profit > statements, bi-weekly salary & commission payments, and sales tracking is > done in perl. I heard a very solid supportable rumour that Oracle may soon be suppoorting FreeBSD and possibly Linux in an attempt to reduce the reasons that people have to go to NT. I'm planning on following the rumour up but if the rumour is true then Larry himself knows about FreeBSD.. > > We moved our salary/commission history records (which we are required > to maintain for about 5 years) from microfiche onto a FreeBSD machine > (v2.1.0R), running a free sql-like database, accessed via perl. > > I would say that this is an example of using "free", "non-supported" tools > in a mission-critical environment. > > However, as the company has about 3000 employees, you may very well consider > them to be "small". I know of FreeBSD being used in systems that handle about $60,000,000 per day. > -- > Jonathan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 12:38:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04754 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-26.netcom.ca [207.181.94.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04727; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id QAA09486; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:35:57 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:35:57 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Joe Greco cc: kallio@cc.jyu.fi, hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? In-Reply-To: <199704151910.OAA13940@solaria.sol.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Joe Greco wrote: > > > I run newsfeeds.sol.net, a PPro200 / 256MB RAM / 1 NCR-810 / 2 AHA-3940 / > > > 2 Kingston Ethernet's / 21 ST31055N's. It handles over two dozen news > > > peers and is currently ranked the #17th most influential news server > > > in the world. > > > > That's okay...I'm proud of a 104 ranking, considering the box, which > > is up from 139 in Febuary... :) > > Not bad :-) Waaaaiittt... wha...? > > $ grep 104 top9703.html > 104 1.43 newsfeed.kreonet.re.kr > $ grep hub.org * > top9701.html: 238 0.56 hub.org > top9702.html: 139 0.93 hub.org > top9703.html: 144 1.04 hub.org > $ > > Ehhhhh reread the stats, guy. :-( That's #144 and 1.04 percent... an > improvement in percentage but slippage in the ranking. Ack, oops :( Still, substantial improvement over January :) That machine has some bad RAM in her too...have to replace that one of these days when I can afford it...losing 5 points isn't *too* bad :) > It's still impressive to see how many of the Top1K boxes are FreeBSD > ones. ;-) Ya, would be neat if the stats could have a comment to the side that stated what the OS was, if not more info ;) Maybe something where you could connect to the site and update info related to your site/domain manually and it got entered in a database *Shrug* Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 12:53:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06229 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06212 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) id VAA01663 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:51:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: Eivind Eklund Message-Id: <199704151951.VAA01663@nic.follonett.no> Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:51:33 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <19970414212122.VV36149@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 14, 97 09:21:22 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Joerg Wunsch] > [John Dyson] > > You mean a central group of people who are trying to maintain quality and > > branding (FreeBSD)? Or a bunch of distributions with a bunch of different > > combinations of shared libs and apps (and kernel versions, Linux)? I prefer > > a coherent development path/group. It is pretty good that we have > > 70+- committers that can modify the tree directly, and don't have chaos. > > In fact, we are pretty well organized. > > I've also done commercial software development at my previous > employer, and i must now say that the degree of organization, the CVS > repository maintenance (hi Peter :), the quality of the resulting > code, the general mutual agreement of how things are done, etc. are > _way_ advanced compared to the commercial development. I'll just second this. I've done commercial development with seven or eight companies (counting consultancy work), with organisations ranging in size from 3 persons to >10,000 persons. I've done both development for internal use and for sale in the commercial marketplace. I've yet to see anybody with better quality of development than FreeBSD, or with a significantly better infrastructure. I've seen cases of better leadership, but the overall quality has always been worse. "Pay enough money, and you will get the best people. Give away an ideal, and you will get the best work of the best people." to quote somebody on the lists earlier. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 12:56:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06813 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06801 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00636; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704151955.MAA00636@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller), fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:14:39 PDT." <199704151714.KAA22594@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:55:44 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Terry Lambert : > > Plus, some of these FreeBSD vs Linux mails are so darn funny, they > > HAVE to be saved for posterity...;) > > > > Humorous at first glance or not, it creates bad blood. This was the > > point I was trying to make with my previous mail. > > They have value other than humor. Personally, I think Jordan is on the take , the last I heard Thrust SSC was going back to Jordan !! http://thrustssc.digital.co.uk/ This goes to show what a good religious battle can do to you ! Come on Jordan, why do you have to drive a car at 650 MPH!! Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 13:10:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA07910 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-26.netcom.ca [207.181.94.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07904 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA21263; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:10:13 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:10:13 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: rsacrack@vex.net cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RSA Challenge - 23blocks from First Place!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hiya... As of 19:56GMT, rsacrack@vex.net has narrowed the gap with the best.net team so that we are *23* blocks from first place, and our rate at cracking the keys is *equal* to best.net... So, over the next half hour or so, we should be in first place as far as cracking efforts are concerned... Now we just have to hold that first place position :) Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 13:44:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA09661 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA09653 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA24789; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:22:10 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704152022.NAA24789@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: RSA Challenge - 23blocks from First Place!! To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:22:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "The Hermit Hacker" at Apr 15, 97 05:10:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As of 19:56GMT, rsacrack@vex.net has narrowed the gap with > the best.net team so that we are *23* blocks from first place, and our > rate at cracking the keys is *equal* to best.net... > > So, over the next half hour or so, we should be in first place > as far as cracking efforts are concerned... > > Now we just have to hold that first place position :) Is this thing actually formated as a race, or is it just being run as one to excuse the duplication of effort? If it's duplication of effort, you'd think that one of you would start at the top and work down, and then both stop when you meet -- like the transcontinental railroad. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 13:45:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA09776 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyber2.servtech.com (smc@cyber2.servtech.com [199.1.22.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09766 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 13:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smc@localhost) by cyber2.servtech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18865 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:45:00 -0400 (EDT) From: smc@servtech.com To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:31 EDT Subject: crontab question Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <3353e8cb0.49af@cyber2.servtech.com> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, Sorry if this is inappropriate for this list, but this list seems to have all the smart people on it, and I'm trying to do this on a FreeBSD machine. What I'd like to do is set up a cron task that runs on either the first or last Sunday of every month. As an experiment, I've got: 0 14 * * 0/4 root mail -s "cron test" root This seems to be frustratingly close, but it leaves me guessing which Sunday it will run on, and it hasn't been in long enough to run yet. Comments, suggestions, and violent cries to RTFM are all appreciated. Thanks, -Shawn Carey From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:00:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA10765 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.bellglobal.com (mail1.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.200]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10758 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:00:48 -0700 (PDT) From: rasmus@bellglobal.com Received: from inet-dev ([199.243.250.207]) by mail1.bellglobal.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA25362; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:56:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: rasmus@bellglobal.com Subject: Re: [RSA] RSA Challenge - 23blocks from First Place!! To: Terry Lambert cc: The Hermit Hacker , rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704152022.NAA24789@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is this thing actually formated as a race, or is it just being run as > one to excuse the duplication of effort? > > If it's duplication of effort, you'd think that one of you would start > at the top and work down, and then both stop when you meet -- like the > transcontinental railroad. What duplication? We are obviously not working on the same keys as somebody else. There is a big pool of keys being handed out by the key servers. Once a key has been searched and reported back, it is not handed out again. By the way, the Deschall and Brydder clients seem to be an order of magnitude faster than these current rc5 clients we are running. The benchmarks from http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm show: Dual Pentium 200 MHz -- 2.003M keys per second -- reported by user. PentiumPro 166MHz -- 901K keys per second -- Linux P6 client. PentiumPro 180MHz -- 850K keys per second -- reported by user. Apple PowerPC 804 180MHz -- 774K keys per second -- Linux client. Pentium 133 MHz -- 662K keys per second -- Windows P5 client. Pentium 120 MHz -- 600K keys per second -- Linux P5 client. Pentium 90 MHz -- 454K keys per second -- FreeBSD P5 client. 486-DX2/66 -- 155K keys per second -- FreeBSD 486 client. 486-DX2/66 -- 153K keys per second -- OS/2 Warp 486 client. 486-DX2/66 -- 135K keys per second -- Windows 486 client. Sun Ultra2 Dual CPU -- 1.060M+ keys per second - Sparc client. Sun SS20-60 Dual CPU -- 382K+ keys per second - Sparc client. SparcStation IPX 4/50 -- 157K keys per second - Sparc client. SparcStation IPC 4/40 -- 40.5K keys per second - Sparc client. We need to either take this client and use it to improve the clients we are using or scrap our current approach and join the Deschall effort. With clients that are so much faster than ours, we don't stand a chance. -Rasmus From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:03:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA10921 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.asgard.hr (pmc@[194.152.221.83]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10914 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (pmc@localhost) by odin.asgard.hr (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA20684; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:03:21 +0100 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:03:21 +0100 (GMT+0100) From: Marin Purgar - PMC To: rasmus@bellglobal.com cc: Terry Lambert , The Hermit Hacker , rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] RSA Challenge - 23blocks from First Place!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 rasmus@bellglobal.com wrote: > We need to either take this client and use it to improve the clients > we are using or scrap our current approach and join the Deschall effort. > With clients that are so much faster than ours, we don't stand a chance. You missed a point. RC5 and DES are *not* the same algorithms. RC5 is far more CPU hungry and there is no symetric in it. Also RSA has separate challenges for DES (only one 56 bit) and RC5 (40, 48, 56, 64 ... bit). > > -Rasmus > bb4now, PMC From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:08:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11196 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vex.net (vex.net [207.207.191.193]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11188 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by vex.net via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:08:27 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.90 1996-Dec-4 #4 built 1997-Jan-8) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:08:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Golan Klinger To: rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: First place. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, I was just checking out the homepage (http://www.vex.net/rsa and I saw the stats from http://bovine.st.hmc.edu/statproc.html. Check this out: Name/Address Blocks Time Last Avg Done Working Checked-in Mkeys/sec1 rsacrack@vex.net 38384 19.8 days 22 secs ago 6.032 crackerz@best.net 38205 19.8 days 1 mins ago 6.01 Wwe're in first now. Regarding the suggestion to switch to the Deschall and Brydder clients, sure, why not? Where are they? No use stopping and joining another effort when we're in first place, right? Golan Klinger [falco@vex.net] For long you live and high you fly And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry Good, fast or cheap. And all you touch and all you see Pick two... Is all your life will ever be From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:14:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11503 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11498 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA01746; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704152114.OAA01746@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Julian Elischer cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:31:40 PDT." <3353D79C.167EB0E7@whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:14:18 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Julian Elischer : > > Then maybe you need an enlightened upper management person. :-) > > > > The business I work for uses Oracle databases on Sequent machines for our > > 'mission critical' point of sale support. However, almost all database > > reporting and manipulation; ie: 'critical' things like daily profit > > statements, bi-weekly salary & commission payments, and sales tracking is > > done in perl. > > I heard a very solid supportable rumour that Oracle may soon be > suppoorting FreeBSD and possibly Linux in an attempt to reduce the > reasons that people > have to go to NT. > > I'm planning on following the rumour up but if the rumour is true then > Larry himself knows about FreeBSD.. > I will be surprise if Larry does not know about FreeBSD. You see Venture Capital people talk a lot and there a few startups in the Valley which use FreeBSD including the one that I was part of. Personally, I dealt with people who know Larry. Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:22:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12018 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA12013 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA29814 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:22:22 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA21382; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:20:41 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970415232041.NW34951@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:20:41 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <199704141539.KAA02603@compound.east.sun.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704141539.KAA02603@compound.east.sun.com>; from Tony Kimball on Apr 14, 1997 10:39:11 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Tony Kimball wrote: > : So what? Do you want us to remove these drivers? > : > > It would seem sensible to move decaying software into a separate > distribution system, a la ports, were there sufficient reason to > motivate the effort. Hmm. Not sure how to do this. However, i think we should drop them from the list of supported hardware first, and create an addendum for `other hardware' in the release notes and installation docs. This way, people should know beforehand that they aren't going to expect the same level of support when using these drivers like for the major hardware. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:27:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12387 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12371 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA29255; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3353F15E.167EB0E7@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:21:34 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Golan Klinger CC: rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] First place. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Golan Klinger wrote: > > Greetings, > > I was just checking out the homepage (http://www.vex.net/rsa and I > saw the stats from http://bovine.st.hmc.edu/statproc.html. Check this out: > > Name/Address Blocks Time Last Avg > Done Working Checked-in Mkeys/sec1 > > rsacrack@vex.net 38384 19.8 days 22 secs ago 6.032 > crackerz@best.net 38205 19.8 days 1 mins ago 6.01 > > Wwe're in first now. Regarding the suggestion to switch to the > Deschall and Brydder clients, sure, why not? Where are they? No use > stopping and joining another effort when we're in first place, right? this may be only the groups using this software.. I believe the Deschall goup to be using a separate set of software to search the keyspace.. I'd like to know how fast tehir client is, so I may run it for a short while. > p.s. 3 of my machines suddenly got faster a short while ago.. ~250KK/sec -> 337KK/sec (beats me!) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:29:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12617 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-35.netcom.ca [207.181.94.99]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12607 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA06054; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:19:01 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:19:01 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker Reply-To: The Hermit Hacker To: rasmus@bellglobal.com cc: Terry Lambert , rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] RSA Challenge - 23blocks from First Place!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 rasmus@bellglobal.com wrote: > By the way, the Deschall and Brydder clients seem to be an order of Brydder? How many seperate efforts *are* out there right now? > magnitude faster than these current rc5 clients we are running. > The benchmarks from http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm show: > > Dual Pentium 200 MHz -- 2.003M keys per second -- reported by user. > PentiumPro 166MHz -- 901K keys per second -- Linux P6 client. > PentiumPro 180MHz -- 850K keys per second -- reported by user. > Apple PowerPC 804 180MHz -- 774K keys per second -- Linux client. > Pentium 133 MHz -- 662K keys per second -- Windows P5 client. Tim, what sort of rates do your clients get? According to the README off his page, for his optimized client, he's getting an approx 25% performance increase...these rates seem to indicate a 5x performance increase... > We need to either take this client and use it to improve the clients > we are using or scrap our current approach and join the Deschall effort. > With clients that are so much faster than ours, we don't stand a chance. I've just grabbed their client and am running a block off of it to see if my results on my P133 running FreeBSD comes anywhere near the 662K they report on a Pentium 133... I think the problem with the bovine clients is that there is probably no assembly optimizations in them, like what genx tried to do... But, so far, the client can't even get a connection to the key server: > ./dvclient-i586-freebsd.WAX -e rsacrack@vex.net -s 128.2.75.22 Using email address: rsacrack@vex.net Using server address: 128.2.75.22 DES Violation Client v1.0 (C) Copyright 1997 the DES Violation Group Obtaining keyspace from 128.2.75.22. Error connecting to server. Waiting 2 minutes.... 128.2.75.22 == keyserver.des.violation.net, which is the default server it attempts to connect to... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:42:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13337 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-03.netcom.ca [207.181.94.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13332 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA06245; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:40:32 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:40:32 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Marin Purgar - PMC cc: rasmus@bellglobal.com, Terry Lambert , rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] RSA Challenge - 23blocks from First Place!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Marin Purgar - PMC wrote: > Hi! > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 rasmus@bellglobal.com wrote: > > > We need to either take this client and use it to improve the clients > > we are using or scrap our current approach and join the Deschall effort. > > With clients that are so much faster than ours, we don't stand a chance. > > You missed a point. RC5 and DES are *not* the same algorithms. RC5 is far > more CPU hungry and there is no symetric in it. Also RSA has separate > challenges for DES (only one 56 bit) and RC5 (40, 48, 56, 64 ... bit). Oh, so DESCHALL (*smacks forehead...DES Challenge*) and the bovine stuff are totally different challenges?? So we aren't duplicating an effort, we are just working on two different contests? BTW...the linux@linuxnet.org group is gradually catching up, being in third place right now, but their Mkeys/sec rating has been steadily increasing... 1 rsacrack@vex.net 38629 19.8 days 9 secs ago 6.06 2 crackerz@best.net 38257 19.8 days 2 mins ago 6.00 3 linux@linuxnet.org 25615 19.8 days 32 secs ago 4.02 crackerz@best.net hasn't changed much as far as Mkeys/sec are concerned... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:42:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13417 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost-hq.freegate.net ([205.178.36.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13408 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:42:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Josef Grosch Received: (qmail 4260 invoked by alias); 15 Apr 1997 21:42:44 -0000 Received: from h235.free-gate.com (HELO jgrosch.hq.freegate.net) (205.178.20.235) by h254.free-gate.com with SMTP; 15 Apr 1997 21:42:44 -0000 Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by jgrosch.hq.freegate.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA26486; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704152142.OAA26486@jgrosch.hq.freegate.net> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers In-Reply-To: <199704151810.LAA22811@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 15, 97 11:10:59 am" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jbryant@tfs.net, brian@awfulhak.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: jgrosch@FreeGate.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert said: >> ... don't make the (mistaken) assumption that amateur licenses are as >> easy to get outside the USA as they are inside. Having said that, I >> still plan to do something as soon as I stop living in a flat 8) > >A flat what? > > A flat is a apartment only it covers the entire floor of a building. An apartment covers a portion of a buildings floor. Josef "Looking for a nice two-flat in San Francisco" Grosch -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.1 jgrosch@FreeGate.net | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:45:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13571 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-03.netcom.ca [207.181.94.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13558 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA06267; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:43:30 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:43:30 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Golan Klinger cc: rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] First place. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Golan Klinger wrote: > Greetings, > > I was just checking out the homepage (http://www.vex.net/rsa and I > saw the stats from http://bovine.st.hmc.edu/statproc.html. Check this out: > > Name/Address Blocks Time Last Avg > Done Working Checked-in Mkeys/sec1 > > rsacrack@vex.net 38384 19.8 days 22 secs ago 6.032 > crackerz@best.net 38205 19.8 days 1 mins ago 6.01 > > Wwe're in first now. Regarding the suggestion to switch to the > Deschall and Brydder clients, sure, why not? Where are they? No use > stopping and joining another effort when we're in first place, right? Have tried to use the Deschall client, but not compatible...and, if the conclusion I drew from someone else's posting is correct, the DESChall(enge) effort is a different contest then the RC5(bovine) effort... See the RSA site for a listing of the different contests that are being run: http://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/97challenge We aren't competing against DESChall(enge), we are participating in a seperate contest :) Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:49:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13749 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iafnl.es.iaf.nl (uucp@iafnl.es.iaf.nl [195.108.17.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13742 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA30498 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for FreeBSD-Hackers@freebsd.org); Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:48:34 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.7.5/8.6.12) id TAA00874; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:21:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199704151721.TAA00874@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: floppy disks To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:21:32 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chuckr@Journey2.mat.net, FreeBSD-Hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Warner Losh" at Apr 14, 97 02:39:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Warner Losh wrote... > > In message <199704141556.BAA28512@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes: > : Hmm, my memory is a tad rusty here, but there was a time when nobody > : was agreeing on whether it was pin 2 or 32 that was the diskchange > : signal. Some vendors (eg. Atari) used to read the write-protect > : signal instead (and got tripped up by drive's that masked it with the > : disk-present sensor), but I would start by checking that pins 2 and 32 > : make it from the drive back to your controller, and if the floppy > : drive(s) are more than a year or two old, see if there's a "DC" jumper > : you can play with on them. > > That would be pin 34. Older disk drives used this for READY, while > newer ones use this for disk change. The only reason I know this has > to do with an obscure piece of computing history named the DEC Rainbow > 100b and RX-50 disk drives and trying to find 3.5" floppies that would > work with the controller in question. I have a spare RX50 ;-) Along with a PDP11/73 with Unix on it.. Wilko _ ____________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl - Arnhem, The Netherlands |/|/ / / /( (_) Do, or do not. There is no 'try' - Yoda -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 14:52:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13952 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13947 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA00482 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:52:21 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA21415; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:23:21 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970415232321.BR06430@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:23:21 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial vendors registry References: <19970414215550.KK19956@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Christoph Haas on Apr 15, 1997 15:37:59 +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Christoph Haas wrote: > > Well, the problem with this is, you often don't know that you're > > breaking something, > > Right, but that's ok. I want to be informed if you break something on > purpose. Go ahead with your idea! Remember, if you need an official FreeBSD mailing list for your vendors to subscribe, you should write to postmaster@freebsd.org. As long as you promise to handle this list, nobody will mind... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 15:04:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14801 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-03.netcom.ca [207.181.94.67]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14789 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA06541; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:04:41 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:04:41 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: rsacrack@vex.net Subject: Assembly Language Programmers & RSA(bovine) effort Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... I'm assuming that there are a few FreeBSD programmers out here that can program in assembly language... So, has anyone taken a look at the bovine clients and possibly come up with some FreeBSD-specific (or not) assembly language improvements to speed up the clients? I know the old genx clients had some assembly in them, but I don't believe the bovine ones have any ;( Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 15:14:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15294 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy2.ba.best.com (root@proxy2.ba.best.com [206.184.139.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA15282 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsampley.vip.best.com (bsampley.vip.best.com [206.184.160.196]) by proxy2.ba.best.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA15621 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:08:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Burton Sampley Reply-To: Burton Sampley To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <199704151754.KAA22727@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but considering all the flaming that's been following this thread for way too long by all sides, I thought this might hopefully bring this thread to an end (some of us subscribers have instructed procmial to send all messages with this subject to /dev/null!!!!!) Enjoy. Burton Sampley (FYI: I didn't write this, I received it from another mailing list.) --------- Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1,331: 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we are all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversey. 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. --- Brought to you by a 100% Micro$oft free system. You too can disinfect your system at http://www.freebsd.org E-Mail: burton@bsampley.vip.best.com Alternate E-Mail: bsampley@haywire.csuhayward.edu Home Page: http://www.best.com/~bsampley (permanently under construction) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 15:21:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15689 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA15684 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA00927; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3353FEB0.446B9B3D@whistle.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:18:24 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker CC: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] add your freebsd machines References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk got some spare cycles? http://bovine.st.hmc.edu/ for the RC5 cracking effort and http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm for the DES effort.. add a client or two.. just grab the clients (by following the instructions) and fire them off with a 'nice -10' and they'll contribute.. as a side benefit you get to see how fast your machine is, but every machine helps for the bovine rc5 set, there seems to be a FreeBSD-heavey set so add your weigh to it by using the command: rc5 -n 20 -a [a.key.server] rsacrack@vex.net (-n 20 gives it a 'nice' value) a suggested key server might be: rc5.best.net see also http://www.vex.net/rsa/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 15:41:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16723 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p5.tfs.net [206.154.183.197]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA16718 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA12126; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:40:58 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704152240.RAA12126@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: sysop@mixcom.com (Jeffrey J. Mountin) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:40:53 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970415044539.00b43ef8@mixcom.com> from "Jeffrey J. Mountin" at Apr 15, 97 04:45:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Do you have emacs on a startup disk? Can you, no. PICO is the norm and in > some cases VI and I consider PICO an adolescent brother of JOE. nope, emacs is the second thing i install after the os :^) pico is great, but not for much more than small text files... and it is a great candidate for putting on a startup disk... > Vi does not was lines showing what to press, which means more useful display. vi is evil... actually, in most cases, if emacs or pico isn't available, i'll use ed any day before i would vi... "ed is the true path to nirvana! ed has been the choice of educated and ignorant alike for centuries! ed will not corrupt your precious bodily fluids!! ed is the standard text editor! ed makes the sun shine and the birds sing and the grass green!!" > Vi is KISS compliant. ;-) [back on topic] you another packeteer? jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 15:53:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17321 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA17308 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA01752; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:53:36 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA22117; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:48:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970416004851.LL04161@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:48:51 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: krygier@kph.uni-mainz.de (Klaus Werner Krygier) Subject: Re: special memory device References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Klaus Werner Krygier on Apr 15, 1997 09:57:39 +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Klaus Werner Krygier wrote: > Now I want to install a similar device which is compatible to the Sun > solution. It will never be used by read/write i/o but only by mmaped i/o. > It shall be able to do a dynamic remapping of the VMEbus window every time > an address is accessed which is out of the current 64 KB window using the > page fault mechanism. Is this possible? This sounds hard to do. Is your card using a real bus system (EISA, PCI), so that you could map the entire memory at once? This would be the simplest solution. Otherwise, i guess you gotta play VM games, by invalidating the pages for the currently invisible device memory. You have to be notified about the page fault (no idea how this might be done, but i'm sure David or John could chime in here), invalidate the pages for the currently visible window, reprogram your card, and validate the pages for the now visible window. Returning from the page fault handler will continue the application. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 15:54:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17448 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17443 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07435 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:54:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just about enough to make me switch sometimes... P6-200, 128MB RAM. -RELENG_2_2 supped from 4/13. I'm getting a panic when doing a bunch of rm's via NFS. So I build a kernel with -g, and now reboot, and now I panic with: panic: bounce memory out of range. WTF is this? All that's in this box is 2 7880's, and 2 dnet0 DEC DE500-AA's. Any tips appreciated. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 15:56:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17604 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p5.tfs.net [206.154.183.197]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA17590 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA12197; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:56:52 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704152256.RAA12197@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:56:51 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970415082618.006d345c@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 15, 97 08:26:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > >> If nobody actively maintains X.25 then it dies, period. > > For anyone that cares X.25 != AX.25, so why this discussion? thank you... there are a lot of similarities though, but like i said AX.25 != X.25... I believe it is close enough that a netccitt style interface could be possible though... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:01:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17865 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA17860 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA27552; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:00:48 -0700 (PDT) To: The Hermit Hacker cc: Golan Klinger , rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] First place. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:43:30 -0300." Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:00:48 -0700 Message-ID: <27548.861145248@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Uhh. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but can you guys take this whole RSA crack discussion to a different place? Maybe even create a mailing list for it? :-) I think many people, myself included, could probably care less about this whole thing and while I do know that FreeBSD machines are involved in this effort, I still don't think that this is FreeBSD _specific_ enough for -hackers, especially not at this length. I think you guys are up to at least 20 articles on this topic now and I'm starting to hate it. :) Thanks! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:05:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18114 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.bellglobal.com (mail1.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.200]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18107 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chris.lerdorf.on.ca ([207.164.141.3]) by mail1.bellglobal.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA2180; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:02:47 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:07:22 -0400 (EDT) From: rasmus@lerdorf.on.ca (Rasmus Lerdorf) To: Marin Purgar - PMC cc: Terry Lambert , The Hermit Hacker , rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] RSA Challenge - 23blocks from First Place!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > We need to either take this client and use it to improve the clients > > we are using or scrap our current approach and join the Deschall effort. > > With clients that are so much faster than ours, we don't stand a chance. > > You missed a point. RC5 and DES are *not* the same algorithms. RC5 is far > more CPU hungry and there is no symetric in it. Also RSA has separate > challenges for DES (only one 56 bit) and RC5 (40, 48, 56, 64 ... bit). Ah, right, I did indeed miss this. I thought they were working on the same contest. Never mind. -Rasmus From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:22:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18962 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18957 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA11922 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:21:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Panic: vm_fault: fault on nofault entry Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk RELENG_2_2, supped 4/15. Never rains but it pours. I was using INN's fastrm to delete files (interesting to note that using xargs rm does not cause the panic, or at least, it hasn't so far). # gdb -k kernel.19 vmcore.19 GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc... IdlePTD 8df000 current pcb at 1e7fc8 panic: vm_fault: fault on nofault entry, addr: %lx #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 243 dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3(); (kgdb) where #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 #1 0xf0112df3 in panic ( fmt=0xf01a0d72 "vm_fault: fault on nofault entry, addr: %lx") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367 #2 0xf01a0e9a in vm_fault (map=0xf4354f00, vaddr=4140339200, fault_type=1 '\001', change_wiring=0) at ../../vm/vm_fault.c:201 #3 0xf01bdb7c in trap_pfault (frame=0xefbffcec, usermode=0) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:642 #4 0xf01bd82b in trap (frame={tf_es = -267190256, tf_ds = -190447600, tf_edi = 56320, tf_esi = -154628096, tf_ebp = -272630440, tf_isp = -272630508, tf_ebx = 4096, tf_edx = -191045632, tf_ecx = 256, tf_eax = 57344, tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266614536, tf_cs = 8, tf_eflags = 66054, tf_esp = 4096, tf_ss = -272629960}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:311 #5 0xf01bc8f8 in ?? () #6 0xf014ec82 in nfs_bioread (vp=0xf4a6b380, uio=0xefbfff38, ioflag=0, cred=0xf4a5a380) at ../../nfs/nfs_bio.c:383 #7 0xf017d572 in nfs_readdir (ap=0xefbfff08) at ../../nfs/nfs_vnops.c:2027 #8 0xf0135f16 in getdirentries (p=0xf49ce000, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84) at vnode_if.h:639 #9 0xf01be32f in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi = 28704, tf_esi = 29664, tf_ebp = -272639992, tf_isp = -272629788, tf_ebx = 268939360, tf_edx = 55, tf_ecx = 57, tf_eax = 196, ---Type to continue, or q to quit--- tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 268733297, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 582, tf_esp = -272640024, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890 #10 0x10048b71 in ?? () #11 0x22ea in ?? () #12 0x2753 in ?? () #13 0x1095 in ?? () From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:28:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA19771 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA19756 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA29833; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:38:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:38:02 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: smc@servtech.com cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: crontab question In-Reply-To: <3353e8cb0.49af@cyber2.servtech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 smc@servtech.com wrote: > What I'd like to do is set up a cron task that runs on either the first > or last Sunday of every month. As an experiment, I've got: > > 0 14 * * 0/4 root mail -s "cron test" root > > This seems to be frustratingly close, but it leaves me guessing which > Sunday it will run on, and it hasn't been in long enough to run yet. Which do you *want* it to run on? 0 14 1-7 * 0 root mail -s "cron test" root will run on the first Sunday. 0 14 25-31 1,3-12 0 root mail -s "cron test" root 0 14 21-28 2 0 root mail -s "cron test" root will run on most last Sundays. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:33:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20051 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20046 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA27819 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:33:10 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: If I might be allowed one small bit of self-advertising.. Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:33:10 -0700 Message-ID: <27815.861147190@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just wanted to let folks in the S.F. Bay Area (or those for whom telecommuting is OK) to know that I'm back on the consulting market this year. I've generally tried to avoid selling any of my hours up to this point because I usually prefer to use my time in the service of any one of the many FreeBSD projects I usually have going, but the tax man is biting on my leg this year so I guess it's time to stop being quite so snobbish about this. FreeBSD related consulting is preferred, of course, but I'll do pretty much any type of software development or support work. As a consultant, I do what pays. ;-) Anyway, I won't go into all the usual descriptive details since I think that most of you on this list already know me and my abilities fairly well by now, my resume and contact info (in a somewhat annoying SGML conversion, but I'll fix it up later) also being available from: http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/resume/ Apologies for the advert, but I figured with the serious shortage of FreeBSD people we currently have in the Bay Area, this might also sort of qualify as a public service. :-) Thanks. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:43:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20632 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p5.tfs.net [206.154.183.197]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20624 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12274; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:43:37 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704152343.SAA12274@argus> Subject: Re: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? To: kallio@cc.jyu.fi Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:43:36 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: from "Seppo Kallio" at Apr 15, 97 05:14:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Please reply if you are running a heavy loaded News server. > > We have Pentium Pro 200 + 128M RAM + 3*4G IBM Wide + 2940 + 3COM 590 > > + Linux RedHAt 4.1 !!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ source of problem... > running inn in heavy load and it does not work (kernel 2.0.30 not at all, > kernel 2.0.27 maybe) System is slowing down and at last it hangs. How many instances? innd is a vm hog if you have any customers at all... Linux VM leaves a lot to be desired... if you want, do a side by side comparison with FreeBSD using the NASA/AMES pitest with MX set to a level just one digit above the largest MX value that will fit in core... pitest is an excellant CPU/FPU/RAM/VM subsystem check/benchmark... you can monitor RAM cram with either ps(1) (using a custom -o string) or top to determine the proper setting of MX... monitor the run using `/usr/bin/time -l pitest` and compare completion stats... FreeBSD will win... for comparison: (MX=23, scalar): 12.6 million digits on a 1.5 Gig sun supersparc: just under 107 hours, but using only (if I remember right) just under 700Megs of RAM, g77 + gcc, -O3 -fomit-frame-pointer, on a loaded development system, with some paging, Solaris 2.4, reniced -20, 4 CPU system, one dedicated to pitest, this is how I burn-in tested a 1G RAM upgrade for reliability... pitest should run faster on a 128M system [less core, less precision]... pitest should still be on wcarchive as: ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/pitest.tar.gz pitest is the ultimate torture test benchmark... > What kind of experience you have about FreeBSD + inn, what is the version > of inn + FreeBSD you use? > > Does it work? Yes FreeBSD rox with innd... I think I have run one of [if not the] highest innd load levels on a FreeBSD box... This was using versions starting with the SNAPS after the 2.0-RELEASE and up to 2.1-RELEASE... 2.0-RELEASE had broken VM... the innd version was 1.4sec [as i remember, that ain't too far off from the actual meggage per instance (1.2-1.4M)] > What about ccd? Linux mcd seems not to work, or maybe Linux 2940 driver > has some problems (is it same as in FreeBSD). ccd seems to still be either alpha-quality or beta-quality from what the web page says, other than that, i have no idea... is rodney grimes still in -hackers? he was getting some amazing striped throughput a couple of years ago... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:49:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21007 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p5.tfs.net [206.154.183.197]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20992 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12317; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:48:57 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704152348.SAA12317@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:48:56 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: from "Warner Losh" at Apr 15, 97 11:45:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > In message <199704150228.VAA09928@argus> Jim Bryant writes: > : almost everyone on this list could probably get the capability for a > : few hundred dollars [one-time cost] and a day or two of studying for > : the license... nodes exist in almost every major city on the planet, > : as well as the arctic, antarctic, every ocean, countless satellites, > : as well as a certain manned space station, not to mention the radio > : backbones which criss cross BFE in almost every country on the planet > : [except maybe N. Korea], even where phone service is nonexistant... > > I'd like to study up on this, but I need a pointer, or at least some > keywords to search in altavista. Can you help me out? try www.arrl.org jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:49:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21031 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boulder.syr.servtech.com (boulder.syr.servtech.com [206.106.144.94]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21016 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boulder.syr.servtech.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boulder.syr.servtech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01770; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:50:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3354143F.41C67EA6@servtech.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:50:23 -0400 From: Shawn Carey X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: crontab question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 smc@servtech.com wrote: > > > What I'd like to do is set up a cron task that runs on either the first > > or last Sunday of every month. As an experiment, I've got: > > > > 0 14 * * 0/4 root mail -s "cron test" root > > > > This seems to be frustratingly close, but it leaves me guessing which > > Sunday it will run on, and it hasn't been in long enough to run yet. > > Which do you *want* it to run on? > > 0 14 1-7 * 0 root mail -s "cron test" root > will run on the first Sunday. > [...] But won't it run every day of the first week, and every Sunday after that also? Only one of the two day fields needs to match in order for cron to run the command. Since I'll be using this to automate monthly backups, I'd rather not accidentally chew on tapes that happen to be in the drives at an unlucky moment! :-) It seems to me that what I need is for cron to logically AND the day-of-week and day-of-month fields instead of using logical OR. Is there any low down, dirty way to simulate this (short of hacking cron)? Thanks, -Shawn Carey From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:50:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21249 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA21241 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA02925; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:50:48 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA22187; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:03:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970416010302.OS26165@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:03:02 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: tinguely@plains.nodak.edu (Mark Tinguely) Subject: Re: optical drives References: <199704151722.MAA29559@plains.nodak.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704151722.MAA29559@plains.nodak.edu>; from Mark Tinguely on Apr 15, 1997 12:22:03 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Mark Tinguely wrote: > Is there anything special (besides adding od0 to kernel configuration) that > needs to be done to get optical drives to work? Normally not. > I place an optical drive on a Adaptec 2940, every access I can think of > using causes a integer divide by zero panic. That should be easy to track with DDB (or remote GDB). Does it also happen if the cartridge is already in the drive at boot time? -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:53:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21439 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21423 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704152353.QAA21423@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA086547990; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:46:30 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) To: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (Alex Belits) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:46:30 +1000 (EST) Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Alex Belits" at Apr 15, 97 11:38:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In some mail from Alex Belits, sie said: > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Darren Reed wrote: > > > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > > with real budgets. > > Most of decisions of that kind aren't made by upper management in both > small and big companies. Heard of the "tendering process" and "signoff" ? From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:55:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21574 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21564 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA12310 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970415195441.00afceb0@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:54:46 -0400 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis Subject: bcopy - quad aligned? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does bcopy() auto-handle quad alignment? I'm seeing some strangeness on non-aligned transfers from PCI shared memory...noting that PCI 32-bit transfers must be quad aligned.... Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:57:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21681 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p5.tfs.net [206.154.183.197]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA21670 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12349; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:57:20 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704152357.SAA12349@argus> Subject: Re: optical drives To: tinguely@plains.nodak.edu (Mark Tinguely) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:57:20 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704151722.MAA29559@plains.nodak.edu> from "Mark Tinguely" at Apr 15, 97 12:22:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Is there anything special (besides adding od0 to kernel configuration) that > needs to be done to get optical drives to work? > > I place an optical drive on a Adaptec 2940, every access I can think of > using causes a integer divide by zero panic. BTW, check_part() in > sys/i386/isa/diskslice_machdep.c does not check if the number of sectors > per cylinder is 0 before doing an integer divide. I am only begon to trace > why this number is zero when od_open() was building the label, I thought > these numbers were okay. never used od0 myself.. . . . ahc0 rev 0 int a irq 11 on pci0:11 ahc0: aic7870 Ultra Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, aic7870, 255 SCBs ahc0: target 0 Tagged Queuing Device (ahc0:0:0): "SEAGATE ST32550N 0022" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 2047MB (4194058 512 byte sectors) sd0(ahc0:0:0): with 3511 cyls, 11 heads, and an average 108 sectors/track (ahc0:1:0): "IBM MTA-3230TC2210!B 0" type 0 removable SCSI 2 sd1(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 217MB (446325 512 byte sectors) sd1(ahc0:1:0): with 17934 cyls, 1 heads, and an average 24 sectors/track . . . the key is to jumper it from a type 7 to a type 0, and don't bother with od0... apsi drivers don't mind it either under dog or 95... if you use an IBM MTA-3230, i believe they did add the disktab i submitted to the distribution... should work with fujitsu also.. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 16:58:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA21828 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA21819 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA23242; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704152359.QAA23242@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jaye Mathisen cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:54:36 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:59:37 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Just about enough to make me switch sometimes... > >P6-200, 128MB RAM. -RELENG_2_2 supped from 4/13. > >I'm getting a panic when doing a bunch of rm's via NFS. > >So I build a kernel with -g, and now reboot, and now I panic with: > >panic: bounce memory out of range. > >WTF is this? Take BOUNCE_BUFFERS support out of your kernel. You don't need it and the size calculation is broken on machines with so much memory. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 17:00:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA21981 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p5.tfs.net [206.154.183.197]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA21975 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA12362; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:58:58 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704152358.SAA12362@argus> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:58:57 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704151756.KAA22749@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 15, 97 10:56:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > let's get to the point... let's get off our butts and get FreeBSD > > recognized by professional developers and software companies... bs > > like this thread isn't going to do it... > > How do you propose to bell this cat? It has no neck... okay terry, now you got me doing it too... get a life... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 17:04:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22387 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA22367 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Cust25.Max14.Boston.MA.MS.UU.NET by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA20250; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:58:47 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970415195757.006ca758@www.3am-software.com> X-Sender: matt@www.3am-software.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:57:57 -0400 To: Jaye Mathisen From: Matt Thomas Subject: Re: More de0 problems. Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:39 AM 4/15/97 -0700, Jaye Mathisen wrote: >Argh. I have a P6-200 with 2 DEC DE500-AA's (-AC part num), replacing >an SMC card that I was having problems with. > >My system boots through netstart, gets to "add net default", then >craps out with a "Enabling 100baseTX port", and de1: Enabling... > >Then craps out with an NMI, and drops into the debugger with a "Trap type >19", code=0. Does your BIOS have PCI Parity enabled? >Stopped at "tulip_delay_300ns+0x17". That routine simply reads a PCI register 10 times (10 x 30ns = 300ns). If it dying with an NMI, you probably have serious hardware problem. > > >Has anybody ported the updated de0 driver to -RELEASE? I don't think that'll help -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 17:06:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22602 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22589 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704160006.RAA22589@freefall.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA090818731; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:58:51 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:58:51 +1000 (EST) Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19970415100320.12729@right.PCS> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Apr 15, 97 10:03:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In some mail from Jonathan Lemon, sie said: > > On Apr 04, 1997 at 11:30:17PM +1000, Darren Reed wrote: > > > > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > > with real budgets. > > Then maybe you need an enlightened upper management person. :-) I think they're more interested in political games personally ;) > The business I work for uses Oracle databases on Sequent machines for our > 'mission critical' point of sale support. However, almost all database > reporting and manipulation; ie: 'critical' things like daily profit > statements, bi-weekly salary & commission payments, and sales tracking is > done in perl. > > We moved our salary/commission history records (which we are required > to maintain for about 5 years) from microfiche onto a FreeBSD machine > (v2.1.0R), running a free sql-like database, accessed via perl. > > I would say that this is an example of using "free", "non-supported" tools > in a mission-critical environment. > > However, as the company has about 3000 employees, you may very well consider > them to be "small". Well, maybe times are changing. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 17:20:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23375 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA23367 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA26086; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:58:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704152358.QAA26086@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? To: jbryant@tfs.net Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:58:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: kallio@cc.jyu.fi, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704152343.SAA12274@argus> from "Jim Bryant" at Apr 15, 97 06:43:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ccd seems to still be either alpha-quality or beta-quality from what > the web page says, other than that, i have no idea... > > is rodney grimes still in -hackers? he was getting some amazing > striped throughput a couple of years ago... I believe Rod had implemented (somehow) spindle sync for the set, which accounts for the fantastic rates he was getting. I don't think the code made it back into the main line tree, though. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 17:27:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23717 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p5.tfs.net [206.154.183.197]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA23708 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA12436; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:27:11 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704160027.TAA12436@argus> Subject: Re: question about X.25 drivers To: kgor@inetspace.com (Kent S. Gordon) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:27:10 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704151916.OAA00697@chess.inetspace.com> from "Kent S. Gordon" at Apr 15, 97 02:16:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > >>>>> "jbryant" == Jim Bryant writes: > > almost everyone on this list could probably get the capability > > for a few hundred dollars [one-time cost] and a day or two of > > studying for the license... nodes exist in almost every major > > city on the planet, as well as the arctic, antarctic, every > > ocean, countless satellites, as well as a certain manned space > > station, not to mention the radio backbones which criss cross > > BFE in almost every country on the planet [except maybe > > N. Korea], even where phone service is nonexistant... > Could you suggest a couple of possible pieces of equipment and what to > study ( and information sources) if someone was interested in doing > this. I looked at www.arrl.org. Is the technician class license the > correct one ( I would prefer not to have to relearn morse code)? > What is the best way to find other local people doing packet radio? any 2-meter (144-148MHz) or 70cm (420-450MHz) FM radio will do. i use a radio-shack htx-202 for my packet stuff. it regularly goes on sale for $199, 0.5W and 6 watts out, any decent antenna [i use a 3/4" copper j-pole, it'll handle at least 5kW, about $25 or make one yourself], a power supply helps... i use a kpc-3+ from kantronics - slow, but usable... total cost for above, shrink-wrapped, under $400, even less used... your local radio shack sells a q&a book called "Technician No-Code" for around $10... No-Code limits you to 50MHz to infinity using any standard or experimental mode of operation [cw, ssb, fm, fstv, data, spread-spectrum, etc] with a 1.5kW power limitation [hmmmm... i wanna bounce FreeBSD AX.25 off the moon]... you still have to have code for HF [the good stuff]... check your local ham club, or listen on a scanner, or get the license and ask on the air for what local frequencies to use for data, and where/when testing sessions take place, you don't have to go to the FCC field office to take the test anymore... again, another source of packet/Spread-spectrum data mode info is: www.tapr.org jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 17:28:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23867 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23862 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA11130; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:57:37 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704160027.JAA11130@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <3353D79C.167EB0E7@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Apr 15, 97 12:31:40 pm" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:57:36 +0930 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk cc pruned; I think everyone listed woul see this anyway. Julian Elischer stands accused of saying: > > I heard a very solid supportable rumour that Oracle may soon be > suppoorting FreeBSD and possibly Linux in an attempt to reduce the > reasons that people have to go to NT. This would be particularly nice, _most_ particularly if they take the job seriously and support _both_ platforms. So many of the commercial forays into the "free" unix market have been the result of partisanism on the part of employees or (often justified) commercial timidity. For a major player like Oracle to support both platforms would indicate that they were being taken seriously in the commercial world. The effect that an accolade like this would have on the respective development communities would, IMHO, be startling in the least. (ps. a point here; I mean no disrespect to Conetic, who were indeed first with a commercial database native on FreeBSD, I am speaking here purely about image.) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 17:34:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24305 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:34:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA24296; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA26123; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:12:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704160012.RAA26123@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: jbryant@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:12:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704152358.SAA12362@argus> from "Jim Bryant" at Apr 15, 97 06:58:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > let's get to the point... let's get off our butts and get FreeBSD > > > recognized by professional developers and software companies... bs > > > like this thread isn't going to do it... > > > > How do you propose to bell this cat? It has no neck... > > okay terry, now you got me doing it too... > > get a life... I was entirely serious, even if my intentionally mixed metaphor was (apparently) too opaque. How do you propose to "get FreeBSD recognized by professional developers and software companies"? What are the steps you believe will achieve this goal, so that the FreeBSD people can "get off their butts" and "do it"? Enlightenment is not some "thing" you can just "give" to professional developers and software companies, after which they will "have" it, and forever after prefer FreeBSD to all other platforms. You can complain that the discussion is not resolving "the real issue", but the complaints do no good without some action to put in their stead; what implementable *process* do you propose? Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- "Never substitute activity for action" -- Seneca, Stoic philosoper --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 17:44:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA24816 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA24811 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA28210 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Prev-Resent: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:43:56 -0700 Prev-Resent: "hackers@freebsd.org " Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (jkh-sl0-o.cdrom.com [204.216.27.193]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA28153 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22906 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inet1.tek.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: inet1.tek.com [192.65.18.21]) id QQcllg07271; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hoax.cse.tek.com by inet1.tek.com id ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:11:51 -0700 Received: (from jasons@localhost) by hoax.cse.tek.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA23251; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:11:17 -0700 (PDT) To: comp-unix-bsd-freebsd-announce@uunet.uu.net Path: news.cse.tek.com!not-for-mail From: jasons@mdhost.cse.tek.com (Jason Scheck) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce Subject: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? Date: 15 Apr 1997 17:11:16 -0700 Organization: Tektronix, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5j15f4$mmg@hoax.cse.tek.com> Resent-To: hackers@freebsd.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:43:56 -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <28206.861151436@time.cdrom.com> Resent-From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Linux has a file system driver that I would very much like to use on my home FreeBSD server (a Macintosh HFS driver). Assuming some driver aptitude, what is the feasibility of converting this driver to run under FreeBSD? Are the models totally incompatible? The DOS filesystem driver has been broken for long enough that it seems that it might be difficult. However, it might not have been converted due to filesystem issues. I do know that some version of the ext2fs runs under both. Any advice will be appreciated. Jason Scheck jasons@netcom.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 18:03:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25701 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25694 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA29438 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:03:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: More 2.2.1 panics: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk UFS errors make me nervous... # gdb -k kernel.20 vmcore.20 GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc... IdlePTD 8df000 current pcb at 1e7fc8 panic: blkfree: freeing free block #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 243 dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3(); (kgdb) where #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 #1 0xf0112df3 in panic (fmt=0xf0192a2d "blkfree: freeing free block") at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367 #2 0xf0192bff in ffs_blkfree (ip=0xf4db4a00, bno=29776, size=8192) at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_alloc.c:1230 #3 0xf0194c7e in ffs_truncate (ap=0xefbffdf8) at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_inode.c:343 #4 0xf0198be5 in ufs_inactive (ap=0xefbffe2c) at vnode_if.h:1003 #5 0xf013214f in vrele (vp=0xf4dcc780) at vnode_if.h:699 #6 0xf01ac615 in vnode_pager_dealloc (object=0xf4ec8100) at ../../vm/vnode_pager.c:203 #7 0xf01abafa in vm_pager_deallocate (object=0xf4ec8100) at ../../vm/vm_pager.c:177 #8 0xf01a6bb4 in vm_object_terminate (object=0xf4ec8100) at ../../vm/vm_object.c:416 #9 0xf01a69ef in vm_object_deallocate (object=0xf4ec8100) at ../../vm/vm_object.c:353 #10 0xf013208e in vrele (vp=0xf4dcc780) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:881 #11 0xf0132003 in vput (vp=0xf4dcc780) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:858 #12 0xf019c0ec in ufs_remove (ap=0xefbffef8) at ../../ufs/ufs/ufs_vnops.c:695 #13 0xf013441d in unlink (p=0xf4a20c00, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84) at vnode_if.h:459 #14 0xf01be32f in syscall (frame={tf_es = -272695257, tf_ds = -272695257, tf_edi = 34197, tf_esi = -272640440, tf_ebp = -272640088, ---Type to continue, or q to quit--- tf_isp = -272629788, tf_ebx = 1, tf_edx = -272641536, tf_ecx = 0, tf_eax = 10, tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 268845169, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags = 530, tf_esp = -272640484, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890 #15 0x10064071 in ?? () #16 0x2c98 in ?? () #17 0x1095 in ?? () From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 18:03:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25745 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25707 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id UAA01158; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:03:11 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704160103.UAA01158@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. In-Reply-To: from Jaye Mathisen at "Apr 15, 97 03:54:36 pm" To: mrcpu@cdsnet.net (Jaye Mathisen) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:03:11 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Just about enough to make me switch sometimes... > > P6-200, 128MB RAM. -RELENG_2_2 supped from 4/13. > > I'm getting a panic when doing a bunch of rm's via NFS. > > So I build a kernel with -g, and now reboot, and now I panic with: > > panic: bounce memory out of range. > > WTF is this? > > All that's in this box is 2 7880's, and 2 dnet0 DEC DE500-AA's. > > > Any tips appreciated. > Turn off bounce buffer support. There are some problems with allocating too much bounce memory. If you need bounce buffers, inside of the bounce buffers calculation (#ifdef BOUNCE_BUFFERS) where the number of bounce buffers are calculated in /sys/i386/i386/machdep.c, limit the number of bouncepages to 128 instead of it's excessive value. Good luck, and give me some feedback!!! John From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 18:05:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25881 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cobber.cord.edu (cobber.cord.edu [138.129.1.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA25874 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cobber.cord.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06823; Tue, 15 Apr 97 19:58:50 CDT Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:54:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Kyle Mestery Subject: Problems with afterstep and swap To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I have a problem with my system where my swap space is slowly filled up until there is none left and the system becomes unusable. I have a P150, 40MB FPM RAM, EIDE disks running FreeBSD-2.2.1 cvsupped as of April 11. I am also running the afterstep window manager. I am using Netscape, about 8 xterms, and doing some mild compiling, and after a couple of hours, anywhere from 4 to 20, the system runs out of swap space. I have 74MB of swap space. I believe that somewhere there is a memory leak, but I am not sure which program is causing it. Anyone have any ideas? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kyle A.D. Mestery | --* POWERED BY FREEBSD *-- 1901 20th St. S #4 | Network Support Specialist Moorhead, MN 56560 | Concordia College, Moorhead, MN 218-236-6359 | "My other computer runs UNIX also" -TJ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 18:25:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26634 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26625; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA03296; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:25:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. In-Reply-To: <199704160103.UAA01158@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Any tips appreciated. > > > Turn off bounce buffer support. There are some problems with > allocating too much bounce memory. If you need bounce buffers, > inside of the bounce buffers calculation (#ifdef BOUNCE_BUFFERS) This worked. (dg sent a note to the same, and actually, I had figured it out by the time the mail came). What is aggravating I guess is that I can swear that I've seen on this list statements to the effect of "Bounce buffers support doesn't hurt anything, so you might as well leave it in". Obviously false. Oh well, now if somebody fixes my regular NFS panics I will be a happier camper than you can imagine. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 18:32:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26956 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:32:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caipfs.rutgers.edu (caipfs.rutgers.edu [128.6.91.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26929 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jenolan.caipgeneral (jenolan.rutgers.edu [128.6.111.5]) by caipfs.rutgers.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21543; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jenolan.caipgeneral (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA01790; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:30:05 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:30:05 -0400 Message-Id: <199704160130.VAA01790@jenolan.caipgeneral> From: "David S. Miller" To: ccsanady@nyx.pr.mcs.net CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199704150943.EAA03061@nyx.pr.mcs.net> (message from Chris Csanady on Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:43:37 -0500) Subject: Re: inline asm question.. Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 04:43:37 -0500 From: Chris Csanady All I wanted to do was to make the below inline function generate the following code. (It is a piece from one of Van Jacobsons mails..) I realize this is for sparc, but it really doesnt matter.. /* NB - ocadd is an inline gcc assembler function */ cksum = ocadd(ocadd(ocadd(ocadd(cksum, seq), ack), flg), sum); addcc %l3,%o0,%o3 addxcc %l4,%o3,%o3 addxcc %l2,%o3,%o3 addxcc %l0,%o3,%o3 static __inline__ unsigned int ocadd1(unsigned int sum, unsigned int addend) { unsigned int ret; __asm__ __volatile__("addcc %1, %2, %0" : "=r" (ret) : "r" (sum), "r" (addend)); return ret; } static __inline__ unsigned int ocadd(unsigned int sum, unsigned int addend) { unsigned int ret; __asm__ __volatile__("addxcc %1, %2, %0" : "=r" (ret) : "r" (sum), "r" (addend)); return ret; } cksum = ocadd(ocadd(ocadd(ocadd1(cksum, seq), ack), flg), sum); something like that... Then make sure you compile using gcc and don't specify any options which disable function inlining or __asm__ directives... (BTW: as you can see Jacobsons code could not have possibly output that sequence of instructions as it is, simply because there is no way just one ocadd() function could have output both "addcc" and "addxcc" by magically knowing if it was the first invocation in a series or not) ---------------------------------------------//// Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & //// 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s //// ethernet. Beat that! //// -----------------------------------------////__________ o David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 18:53:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA27908 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA27903 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA10614; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:55:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:55:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Shawn Carey cc: "Daniel O'Callaghan" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: crontab question In-Reply-To: <3354143F.41C67EA6@servtech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Shawn Carey wrote: > > 0 14 1-7 * 0 root mail -s "cron test" root > > will run on the first Sunday. > > [...] > > But won't it run every day of the first week, and every Sunday after > that also? > Only one of the two day fields needs to match in order for cron to run > the command. Since I'll be using this to automate monthly backups, I'd > rather not accidentally chew on tapes that happen to be in the drives at > an unlucky moment! :-) > > It seems to me that what I need is for cron to logically AND the > day-of-week and day-of-month fields instead of using logical OR. Is > there any low down, dirty way to simulate this (short of hacking cron)? 0 14 1-7 * * root date | grep Sun >/dev/null && mail -s "cron test" root and last Sunday: 0 14 22-31 * * root [ `date|cut -f3 -d' '` = `cal|cut -f1 -d' '|grep -v ^\$|tail -1` ] && mail -s "cron test" root -- Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 19:01:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28672 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28665; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id VAA01268; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:00:13 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704160200.VAA01268@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. In-Reply-To: from Jaye Mathisen at "Apr 15, 97 06:25:18 pm" To: mrcpu@cdsnet.net (Jaye Mathisen) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:00:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > What is aggravating I guess is that I can swear that I've seen on this > list statements to the effect of "Bounce buffers support doesn't hurt > anything, so you might as well leave it in". > So we were wrong :-). I always hated the bounce buffer support that I wrote -- and would have done it better again. But darn'it I don't think that there are many jobs for bounce-buffer writers :-). > > Oh well, now if somebody fixes my regular NFS panics I will be a happier > camper than you can imagine. > I'd love to work on it soon. Right now, my context is in the thread support in current, and then BUGFIXES for the next few days. I am bored of other things, and might look at NFS. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 19:01:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28740 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br (kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br [143.106.13.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28731 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from vazquez@localhost) by kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.7.3/FreeBSD/2.1.5) id XAA06174; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:01:04 -0300 (EST) From: Pedro A M Vazquez Message-Id: <199704160201.XAA06174@kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br> Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) To: ahobson@eng.mindspring.net (Andrew Hobson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:01:04 -0300 (EST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Hobson" at Apr 15, 97 02:05:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Andrew Hobson said: > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:30:17 +1000 (EST), Darren Reed said: > > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > > with real budgets. > > The DNS servers with the eighth largest number of domains (excluding > the root servers) are FreeBSD machines. > Well, we have a 2.1.7~stable box serving > 14k domains, in this case the whole .BR domain, it is a 16M P100 and it does lots of other things. The uptime is rulled by the no-breaks I can't say the same about the other .BR servers. Just another point in the curve. Pedro From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 19:01:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA28750 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA28719; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA23707; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704160202.TAA23707@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Jaye Mathisen cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:25:18 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:02:46 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >What is aggravating I guess is that I can swear that I've seen on this >list statements to the effect of "Bounce buffers support doesn't hurt >anything, so you might as well leave it in". > >Obviously false. The statement means only that bounce buffer support doesn't slow down I/O on DMA controllers that don't need it, i.e. doesn't hurt performance. The buffer pool is still allocated at system startup, however. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 19:15:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA29620 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p5.tfs.net [206.154.183.197]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA29615 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA12746; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:14:34 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704160214.VAA12746@argus> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:14:33 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704160012.RAA26123@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 15, 97 05:12:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > > > let's get to the point... let's get off our butts and get FreeBSD > > > > recognized by professional developers and software companies... bs > > > > like this thread isn't going to do it... > > > > > > How do you propose to bell this cat? It has no neck... > > > > okay terry, now you got me doing it too... > > > > get a life... > > I was entirely serious, even if my intentionally mixed metaphor was > (apparently) too opaque. > > > How do you propose to "get FreeBSD recognized by professional > developers and software companies"? > > What are the steps you believe will achieve this goal, so that the > FreeBSD people can "get off their butts" and "do it"? > > Enlightenment is not some "thing" you can just "give" to professional > developers and software companies, after which they will "have" it, > and forever after prefer FreeBSD to all other platforms. > > You can complain that the discussion is not resolving "the real issue", > but the complaints do no good without some action to put in their stead; > what implementable *process* do you propose? i have been fairly point blank on how to get them to notice FreeBSD... [recap time] 1). get rid of mail-order as the primary marketing focus for FreeBSD, concentrate on matching every Linix CD on the shelves at every local hole-in-the wall computer shop with FreeBSD CDs... mail-order has it's place, but keep it in it's place... 2). magazine coverage. 3). books, gimme a yell when you are ready Jordan! 4). don't compare to linux... use Solaris, SCO, Interactive, Dell, etc... for comparisons... although push the fact of the linux emulation... this makes for more apple<->apple treatment... it may be entertaining to poke fun at linux, but like the gentleman said, linux was never intended to be unix... 5). university library sales... get new compugeeks running it... our universities are not exectly teaching operatings systems like they used to to today's "Clueless" HS grads... 6). VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV > --- > "Never substitute activity for action" -- Seneca, Stoic philosoper > --- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 7). Take no prisoners!@# jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 19:22:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA29873 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itsdsv1.enc.edu (itsdsv1.enc.edu [207.95.42.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA29867 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dingo.its.enc.edu (dingo.its.enc.edu [207.95.222.250]) by itsdsv1.enc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA28176; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:29:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Owens X-Sender: owensc@dingo.its.enc.edu To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org cc: Chris Coleman Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: <199704120136.SAA07636@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chris Coleman on Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 said: > I was checking out the Anti-virus programs for FreeBSD by McAffee > and ran it on my system. It showed that I had SEVERAL files infected with > a SYSLOCK virus. Any one know about this stuff? > > Is it worth buying, and is SYSLOCK a real threat? Chris, I tried out the Mcafee ViruScan for FreeBSD ("uvscan") and had the same results. I scanned a large collection of PC files and a hundred or so were reported to have this virus. Given that many of the files were GIFs and other pure data formats I was skeptical of the results. So... I spend an hour or so chatting to a nice guy at Mcafee tech support. I mailed him a supposedly infected file (a Powerpoint file) and he scanned it with his Linux and DOS versions of VirusScan and found no sign of infection. He sent the info off to development so the bug can be fixed. A general note to all: I was surprised and encouraged that Mcafee had a FreeBSD version. Assuming that they fix the bug, it would be a good thing if a bunch of us bought it to demonstrate that there _is_ a market for FreeBSD commerical software. The list price is $200. I was utterly amazed at how fast it blew through scanning 700 megs of PC files. anyhow... --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles N. Owens Email: owensc@enc.edu http://www.enc.edu/~owensc Network & Systems Administrator Information Technology Services "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's Eastern Nazarene College best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 19:55:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01275 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (unique.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01265 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from davidn@localhost) by unique.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA22363; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:53:30 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19970416125329.34879@usn.blaze.net.au> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:53:29 +1000 From: David Nugent To: Warner Losh Cc: Giles Lean , pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: ; from Warner Losh on Sat Apr 12 13:08:52 EST 1997 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat Apr 12 13:08:52 EST 1997, Warner Losh writes: > In message <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> Giles Lean writes: > [ use smrsh ] > : I recommend that we make this change for the 3.0 release. > > Me too. Any objection to just doing it? No, provided that the procmail port links itself to /usr/libexec/sm.bin on installation. This will cover 90% of the problem reports about it. And, yes, it definitely must be there, regardless of what was claimed earlier in this thread. Regards, David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 19:58:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01404 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aries.bb.cc.wa.us (root@[208.8.136.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01399 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by aries.bb.cc.wa.us (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA12819; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:52:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Charles Owens cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for the response. I did some checking and all of the files that claimed to be infected by the SYSLOCK virus were tar.tz man pages and such. I really didn't think it was very serious. Thanks for reporting the bug. I hadn't gotten as far as to call them. We are looking in to buying it, if my review of it goes well and we have the budget we will buy it. Let me know of any bug fixes that result of this. Thanks Christopher J. Coleman (chris@aries.bb.cc.wa.us) Computer Support Technician I (509)-766-8873 Big Bend Community College Internet Instructor FreeBSD Book Project: http://vinyl.quickweb.com/~chrisc/book.html Disclaimer: Even Though it has My Name on it, Doesn't mean I said it. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 20:12:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA01986 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boulder.syr.servtech.com (boulder.syr.servtech.com [206.106.144.94]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01967 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boulder.syr.servtech.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by boulder.syr.servtech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA01942; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33544409.41C67EA6@servtech.com> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:14:17 -0400 From: Shawn Carey X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Belits CC: "Daniel O'Callaghan" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: crontab question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex Belits wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Shawn Carey wrote: > > > [...] > > It seems to me that what I need is for cron to logically AND the > > day-of-week and day-of-month fields instead of using logical OR. Is > > there any low down, dirty way to simulate this (short of hacking cron)? > > 0 14 1-7 * * root date | grep Sun >/dev/null && mail -s "cron test" root > > and last Sunday: > > 0 14 22-31 * * root [ `date|cut -f3 -d' '` = `cal|cut -f1 -d' '|grep -v ^\$|tail -1` ] && mail -s "cron test" root > Wow. That's exactly what I meant to say, thanks for the precise translation from english to sh(1)! > -- > Alex -Shawn From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 20:20:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02503 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sol.ashland.edu (sol.ashland.edu [198.30.217.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA02490 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from warp4.ashland.edu for jroberts@ashland.edu by sol.ashland.edu (8.6.12/931002.1044) id XAA11641; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:20:45 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:22:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Roberts To: Charles Owens cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, Chris Coleman Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: jroberts@mail.ashland.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Chris Coleman on Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 said: > > > I was checking out the Anti-virus programs for FreeBSD by McAffee > > and ran it on my system. It showed that I had SEVERAL files infected with > > a SYSLOCK virus. Any one know about this stuff? > > > > Is it worth buying, and is SYSLOCK a real threat? On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > Chris, > > I tried out the Mcafee ViruScan for FreeBSD ("uvscan") and had the same > results. I scanned a large collection of PC files and a hundred or so > were reported to have this virus. Given that many of the files were GIFs > and other pure data formats I was skeptical of the results. > > So... I spend an hour or so chatting to a nice guy at Mcafee tech support. > I mailed him a supposedly infected file (a Powerpoint file) and he scanned > it with his Linux and DOS versions of VirusScan and found no sign of > infection. He sent the info off to development so the bug can be fixed. (Jeff) What version # is this? The 1.01E on their Web site now, or an earlier release? Thanks, Jeff ______________________________________________________________________ Jeff Roberts >>>> jroberts@ashland.edu <<<< strider@acm.org ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 20:31:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03086 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03081 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA04564; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:31:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:31:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704160331.VAA04564@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Jaye Mathisen Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More 2.2.1 panics: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > UFS errors make me nervous... Given the NMI you've got earlier, I'd be thinking hardware errors at this point. I've got a older DEC card in a P6-200 running 2.2.1 w/out problems. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 20:33:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03205 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03200 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA04560; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:29:50 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:29:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704160329.VAA04560@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704160012.RAA26123@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704152358.SAA12362@argus> <199704160012.RAA26123@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You can complain that the discussion is not resolving "the real issue", > but the complaints do no good without some action to put in their stead; > what implementable *process* do you propose? Pot, kettle, black. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 20:54:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04341 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04335 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA00484 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:54:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD in the news. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Maybe this has been mentioned: PC Week, April 14 '97 issue, page 46, discusses using FreeBSD with the Xcert CA-Sentry product. Favorable, modulo a gripe they had about their server setup, but they didn't elaborate. From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 21:01:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA04698 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (w2xo.pgh.pa.us [206.210.70.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA04693 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by w2xo.pgh.pa.us (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA14146; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33544F1B.3F54BC7E@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:01:31 -0400 From: Jim Durham Organization: Dis- X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jbryant@tfs.net CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: floppy disks References: <199704150539.AAA10762@argus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jim Bryant wrote: > > In reply: > > Chuck Robey wrote: > > (snip!) > > > floppy into the drive, do a DIR. I take that floppy out, put another one > > [snip] > > > (Also, control-c should reset it on DOS without all the grief).8) > > I thought that was for CP/M ???!!! At least the CP/M on my old Vector > 5005 S-100 box used to do it that way on a disk change :^) > (snip!) > [three terminals, 192k bank-switched [16k x 1's], multi-user CP/M, > three serial ports, Centronics port, 16 [hard] sectored 5.25" floppy > drive, ST-506 hard drive [whopping 5 Megs!], 18 S-100 slots, > well-filtered power supply with a transformer bigger than most US Navy > anchors, on a blazing fast Z80B running a steamy 6 MHz]!!! (snip!) I believe it works on DOS also (hmmmm...ever look at DOS 1.0 vis-a-vis CP/M?).. (My old CP/M box was an Altair with Persci 8 inchers and a Tarbell controller.) -Jim Durham From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 21:11:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05384 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05376 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id EAA12954; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:11:43 GMT Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:11:42 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Charles Owens cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > A general note to all: I was surprised and encouraged that Mcafee had a > FreeBSD version. Assuming that they fix the bug, it would be a good thing > if a bunch of us bought it to demonstrate that there _is_ a market for > FreeBSD commerical software. This is pretty cool. > The list price is $200. I was utterly amazed at how fast it blew through > scanning 700 megs of PC files. Remember performance is meaningless if it doesn't work right. Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 21:17:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05873 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p5.tfs.net [206.154.183.197]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA05868 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA13057; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:17:24 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704160417.XAA13057@argus> Subject: Re: floppy disks To: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:17:23 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <33544F1B.3F54BC7E@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> from "Jim Durham" at Apr 16, 97 00:01:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Jim Bryant wrote: > > > > In reply: > > > Chuck Robey wrote: > > > (snip!) > > > > floppy into the drive, do a DIR. I take that floppy out, put another one > > > > [snip] > > > > > (Also, control-c should reset it on DOS without all the grief).8) > > > > I thought that was for CP/M ???!!! At least the CP/M on my old Vector > > 5005 S-100 box used to do it that way on a disk change :^) > > > (snip!) > > [three terminals, 192k bank-switched [16k x 1's], multi-user CP/M, > > three serial ports, Centronics port, 16 [hard] sectored 5.25" floppy > > drive, ST-506 hard drive [whopping 5 Megs!], 18 S-100 slots, > > well-filtered power supply with a transformer bigger than most US Navy > > anchors, on a blazing fast Z80B running a steamy 6 MHz]!!! > (snip!) > I believe it works on DOS also (hmmmm...ever look at DOS 1.0 vis-a-vis > CP/M?).. i'd rather not remember dog-1.0, although i still have a copy somewhere... it even runs on this system... > (My old CP/M box was an Altair with Persci 8 inchers and a Tarbell > controller.) xeyes -bg black -fg red -center envygreen & i toggled bootstrap on my neighbor's altair-8800 once when i was a kid... aren't keyboards great! :^) jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 21:57:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA09200 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA09192 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA13071; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 21:57:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More 2.2.1 panics: In-Reply-To: <199704160331.VAA04564@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Different box. On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > UFS errors make me nervous... > > Given the NMI you've got earlier, I'd be thinking hardware errors at > this point. > > I've got a older DEC card in a P6-200 running 2.2.1 w/out problems. > > > Nate > From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 22:58:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA12171 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [206.222.77.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA12163 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA21174; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970416015251.01090@vinyl.quickweb.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:52:51 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Kyle Mestery Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problems with afterstep and swap References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: ; from Kyle Mestery on Tue, Apr 15, 1997 at 07:54:06PM -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Apr 15, 1997 at 07:54:06PM -0500, Kyle Mestery wrote: > > Hi, I have a problem with my system where my swap space is slowly filled > up until there is none left and the system becomes unusable. I have a > P150, 40MB FPM RAM, EIDE disks running FreeBSD-2.2.1 cvsupped as of April > 11. I am also running the afterstep window manager. I am using > Netscape, about 8 xterms, and doing some mild compiling, and after a > couple of hours, anywhere from 4 to 20, the system runs out of swap > space. I have 74MB of swap space. I believe that somewhere there is a > memory leak, but I am not sure which program is causing it. Anyone have > any ideas? Take a look and see how much memory your X-Server is using. If it's a lot, disabling BACKING_STORE will dramitically reduce the memory size of the X-Server. On my machine (using the Xinsde AccelX server) Netscape was a pig with BACKING_STORE.... I turned it off, and now my Xserver size stays consitent at a more reasonable figure. -Mark > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Kyle A.D. Mestery | --* POWERED BY FREEBSD *-- > 1901 20th St. S #4 | Network Support Specialist > Moorhead, MN 56560 | Concordia College, Moorhead, MN > 218-236-6359 | "My other computer runs UNIX also" -TJ > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com RingZero Comp. http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark finger mark@quickweb.com for my PGP key and GCS code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be thought incapable. -Sir Peter Imbert From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 23:17:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13756 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itu.cc.jyu.fi (root@itu.cc.jyu.fi [130.234.40.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA13703; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by itu.cc.jyu.fi (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA26909; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:04:36 +0300 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:04:36 +0300 (EET DST) From: Seppo Kallio To: Joe Greco cc: The Hermit Hacker , hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? In-Reply-To: <199704151910.OAA13940@solaria.sol.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Joe Greco wrote: > Not bad :-) Waaaaiittt... wha...? > > $ grep 104 top9703.html > 104 1.43 newsfeed.kreonet.re.kr > $ grep hub.org * > top9701.html: 238 0.56 hub.org > top9702.html: 139 0.93 hub.org > top9703.html: 144 1.04 hub.org > $ What is this? > It's still impressive to see how many of the Top1K boxes are FreeBSD > ones. ;-) How Many? I cannot see. Has someone some statistics? Some list of NewsServers in Internet? Seppo From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 23:25:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA15772 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.research.megasoft.com (gw.research.megasoft.com [206.230.35.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA15763 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by gw.research.megasoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3-cmcurtin) id CAA11790; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goffette.research.megasoft.com(192.168.1.2) by gw.research.megasoft.com via smap (V2.0) id xma011788; Wed, 16 Apr 97 02:25:21 -0400 Received: (from cmcurtin@localhost) by goffette.research.megasoft.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA27035; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199704160624.CAA27035@goffette.research.megasoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: C Matthew Curtin To: Golan Klinger Cc: rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org, deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Subject: Re: First place. In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid X-Face: "&>g(&eGr?u^F:nFihL%BsyS1[tCqG7}I2rGk4{aKJ5I_5A\*6RYn4"N.`1pPF9LO!Fa<(gj:12)?=uP2l01e10Gij"7j&-)torL^iBrNf\s7PDLm=rf[PjxtSbZ{J(@@j"q2/iV9^Mx Name/Address Blocks Time Last Avg > Done Working Checked-in Mkeys/sec1 > > rsacrack@vex.net 38384 19.8 days 22 secs ago 6.032 > crackerz@best.net 38205 19.8 days 1 mins ago 6.01 > Wwe're in first now. Regarding the suggestion to switch to the > Deschall and Brydder clients, sure, why not? Where are they? No use > stopping and joining another effort when we're in first place, > right? First place of what? :-) We (the deschall group) are doing > 500Mkeys/sec. Plus, we'll soon be able to traverse firewalls, which we hope will significantly increase the number of available clients. Our status reports are available at http://www.frii.com/~rcv/desstat.htm Stop playing around with <10Mkeys/sec and join us. :-) That's a lot of keys, but if everyone can coordinate their efforts together, the faster we'll get through the keyspace and prove that DES is too weak for real applications... -- Matt Curtin Chief Scientist Megasoft, Inc. cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ I speak only for myself Death to small keys. Crack DES NOW! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 23:40:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA17118 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vital.bleeding.com (vital.bleeding.com [205.166.195.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17108 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crimson (crimson.bleeding.com [205.166.254.2]) by vital.bleeding.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA21106; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by crimson with Microsoft Mail id <01BC49F6.CCE56760@crimson>; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:43:20 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC49F6.CCE56760@crimson> From: Justin Wolf To: "'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'" , Golan Klinger Cc: "rsacrack@vex.net" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com" Subject: RE: First place. Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:43:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id XAA17113 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You actually think that DES is too weak when it takes all the hackers in the known unix world to stage an attempt which has been so far unsuccessful? Hmm... different point of view I guess. -Justin Wolf (jjwolf@bleeding.com) -----Original Message----- From: C Matthew Curtin [SMTP:cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 1997 11:25 PM To: Golan Klinger Cc: rsacrack@vex.net; hackers@freebsd.org; deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Subject: Re: First place. > Name/Address Blocks Time Last Avg > Done Working Checked-in Mkeys/sec1 > > rsacrack@vex.net 38384 19.8 days 22 secs ago 6.032 > crackerz@best.net 38205 19.8 days 1 mins ago 6.01 > Wwe're in first now. Regarding the suggestion to switch to the > Deschall and Brydder clients, sure, why not? Where are they? No use > stopping and joining another effort when we're in first place, > right? First place of what? :-) We (the deschall group) are doing > 500Mkeys/sec. Plus, we'll soon be able to traverse firewalls, which we hope will significantly increase the number of available clients. Our status reports are available at http://www.frii.com/~rcv/desstat.htm Stop playing around with <10Mkeys/sec and join us. :-) That's a lot of keys, but if everyone can coordinate their efforts together, the faster we'll get through the keyspace and prove that DES is too weak for real applications... -- Matt Curtin Chief Scientist Megasoft, Inc. cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com http://www.research.megasoft.com/people/cmcurtin/ I speak only for myself Death to small keys. Crack DES NOW! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 15 23:59:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA18432 for hackers-outgoing; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.linkdesign.com (nserv1.hlink.com.cy [194.42.131.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA18423 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.linkdesign.com (nicosia36.cylink.com.cy [194.42.129.70]) by relay.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id JAA24093 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:59:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from michael.bielicki@localhost) by bsd.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA05838; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:56:43 +0300 (EEST) From: Michael Bielicki Message-ID: <19970416095617.02651@linkdesign.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:56:17 +0300 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> <19970416125329.34879@usn.blaze.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary="J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 In-Reply-To: <19970416125329.34879@usn.blaze.net.au>; from David Nugent on Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 12:53:29PM +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Can I support this ??? :)) Most requests I get to fix a break in are because of stupid sendmail installs :)) Regards Michael On Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 12:53:29PM +1000, David Nugent shaped the electrons to say: > On Sat Apr 12 13:08:52 EST 1997, Warner Losh writes: > > In message <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> Giles Lean writes: > > [ use smrsh ] > > : I recommend that we make this change for the 3.0 release. > > > > Me too. Any objection to just doing it? > > No, provided that the procmail port links itself to /usr/libexec/sm.bin > on installation. This will cover 90% of the problem reports about it. > And, yes, it definitely must be there, regardless of what was claimed > earlier in this thread. > > Regards, > > David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia > Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet > davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ > -- Michael Bielicki Link Design International Ltd. Buisnetco Telecommunications Ltd. 65 Cliff Road, Tramore, Office 23, 13, Iras Street Co. Waterford, Ireland Nicosia 1061, Rep. of Cyprus Tel: +353-51-390880 We use FreeBSD Tel: +357 2 362 421 Fax: +353 51 386921 http://www.linkdesign.com Fax: +357 2 362 429 --J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBM1R4EMneSpf+YTVhAQGCRwQApxxbxTR2nQQymSobPWTNodboXExfNjXA QnknIHXlY22yDQP9ChGacAsYO+mRRcmStYMK7CYzlZmHK8xBOJWlCyZ+5T/3xeNk qLnqL453KHfbAOgMRTb2cCBiAV/b3lDw3MKF5Hn6kqkPV1yP/aJdwbVOhF6a//kB 2WSVb1XKvEI= =8evy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J2SCkAp4GZ/dPZZf-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 00:23:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21720 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA21708 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA06261 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:23:48 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA02412; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:04:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970416090400.TJ11242@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:04:00 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Jaye Mathisen on Apr 15, 1997 15:54:36 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jaye Mathisen wrote: > So I build a kernel with -g, and now reboot, and now I panic with: > > panic: bounce memory out of range. > > WTF is this? Apart from the bouncebuffer stuff, i hope you didn't actually boot the full -g kernel, did'ya? The debugging symbols will eat up a lot of physical memory, for no good purpose at all. That's probably what triggers the bouncebuffer problems. The normal way is to strip -d the actual boot file after copying it to /, while keeping the fully bloated kernel file in the compile directory for the debugger. The debugging symbols only make sense for use with gdb, so you either need a coredump, or another machine with the compile tree to do remote gdb. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 00:38:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA23082 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.sml.co.jp (smlgw.sml.co.jp [192.51.189.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA23072 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 00:38:53 -0700 (PDT) From: drew@sml.co.jp Received: from belldandy.sml.co.jp (skuld.sml.co.jp [192.168.100.161]) by mx.sml.co.jp (8.7.5+2.6Wbeta6/3.4W-SML2) with SMTP id QAA02522; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:38:32 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199704160738.QAA02522@mx.sml.co.jp> To: Justin Wolf , "'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'" , Golan Klinger , "rsacrack@vex.net" , "hackers@freebsd.org", "deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com" Subject: RE: First place. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:43:19 -0700" <01BC49F6.CCE56760@crimson> Reply-To: drew@sml.co.jp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:42:18 +0900 X-Mailer: WeMail32[1.40] ID:Unregistered Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 1997/04/15 23:43:19 -0700$B$K(BJustin Wolf $B$5$s$KD:$$$?(B $B!V(BRE: First place.$B!W$X$NJV;v$G$9!#(B >You actually think that DES is too weak when it takes all the >hackers in the known unix world to stage an attempt which has >been so far unsuccessful? Hmm... different point of view I guess. You actually think that the US government doesn't have at least ten times the computing power of everyone in this effort put together? Hell, they've probably got that much computing power just in people's desktop workstations. The fact is, 56-bit keys are useless when up against the US Government. -- Drew Hamilton -- drew@sml.co.jp -- http://www.drew-hamilton.net/ $B!V@1$,$"$s$J$KH~$7$$$N$b!"L\$K8+$($J$$2V$,0l$D$"$k$+$i$J$s$@$h!&!&!&!W(B From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 01:38:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01830 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA01815 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA07165 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 01:38:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It seems that if you do a fresh install via the boot disk, and select the option to install packages after the bindist stuff is downloaded, you can't exit the menu unless you install some package. Doesn't matter which one, but you gotta install one... From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 02:32:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA10877 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phi.Sinica.EDU.tw (phi.sinica.edu.tw [140.109.14.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA09924 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by phi.Sinica.EDU.tw (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06376; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:22:07 +0800 From: ywliu@phi.Sinica.EDU.tw (Yen-Wei Liu) Message-Id: <9704160922.AA06376@phi.Sinica.EDU.tw> Subject: How to extract function prototypes from source code ? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:22:07 +0800 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, This is not really directly related to FreeBSD programming, but... I do remember there is a switch in GCC that can extract function prototypes (declarations) from source code to a seperate file so it's easier to build up header files, but however I cannot find it anymore. Didn't my memory serve me wrong ? How can I do this ? --- Hoffmann Yen-Wei Liu (Taipei, Taiwan) "It seems like once people grow up, they have no idea what's cool." - Calvin said to Hobbes, Calvin and Hobbes. E-mail addr : (Personal) ywliu@tpts4.seed.net.tw (Business) ywliu@sinanet.com (For personal or confidential messages, please apply the following PGP key and mail to ywliu@tpts4.seed.net.tw) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 02:39:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA11878 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oskar.nanoteq.co.za (oskar.nanoteq.co.za [163.195.220.170]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA11863 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pvl@localhost) by oskar.nanoteq.co.za (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26797; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:38:52 +0200 (SAT) From: Pierre Van Leeuwen Message-Id: <199704160938.LAA26797@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Subject: tcsh bug? To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD-hackers) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:38:52 +0200 (SAT) Cc: pvl@nanoteq.com Reply-To: pvl@nanoteq.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hi I just upgraded my machine to 2.2.1 I wrote a simple shell script using tcsh and I was amazed when I landed in the kernel debugger when executing it. It seems the culprit is the cd command. This is the offending bit of script : #!/bin/tcsh set t_dir=/usr/X11R6 if ( -de $t_dir ) then cd $t_dir else mkdir $t_dir cd $t_dir endif The directory would get created, but the cd $t_dir would invoke the debugger: vnode_pager_getpages : I/O read error vm_fault : pager input (probably hardware) error Fatal trap 12 : page fault while in kernel mode btw, the machine is a P-133 with 32M RAM, Conner 1,6G IDE drive. If it is a hardware error, how do I find out what it is? I don't mind doing some debugging, but I don't really know what to look for. Help is appreciated pierre -- Pierre_Andre van Leeuwen Electronic Engineer -------------------------------------------------------------- | E-mail : pvl@nanoteq.com | Nanoteq (Pty) Ltd. | | Ph : +27 (0)12 665-1338 | Specialists in data security | | http://www.nanoteq.co.za | -------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 03:22:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA14758 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 03:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oskar.nanoteq.co.za (oskar.nanoteq.co.za [163.195.220.170]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA14745 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 03:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pvl@localhost) by oskar.nanoteq.co.za (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01779 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:21:59 +0200 (SAT) From: Pierre Van Leeuwen Message-Id: <199704161021.MAA01779@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Subject: Re: tcsh bug? In-Reply-To: <199704160938.LAA26797@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> from Pierre Van Leeuwen at "Apr 16, 97 11:38:52 am" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD-hackers) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:21:59 +0200 (SAT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk my apologies, found the error. :) Right after the cd command, I called a script from an nfs mounted disk, and the permissions weren't correct. Therefore, ignore my complaint/question ;) pierre > hi > > I just upgraded my machine to 2.2.1 > > I wrote a simple shell script using tcsh and I was amazed when > I landed in the kernel debugger when executing it. It seems > the culprit is the cd command. > > This is the offending bit of script : > > #!/bin/tcsh > > set t_dir=/usr/X11R6 > > if ( -de $t_dir ) then > cd $t_dir > else > mkdir $t_dir > cd $t_dir > endif > > The directory would get created, but the cd $t_dir would > invoke the debugger: > > vnode_pager_getpages : I/O read error > vm_fault : pager input (probably hardware) error > > Fatal trap 12 : page fault while in kernel mode > > > btw, the machine is a P-133 with 32M RAM, Conner 1,6G IDE drive. > If it is a hardware error, how do I find out what it is? > I don't mind doing some debugging, but I don't really know what > to look for. > > Help is appreciated > > pierre > > > > -- > Pierre_Andre van Leeuwen > Electronic Engineer > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | E-mail : pvl@nanoteq.com | Nanoteq (Pty) Ltd. | > | Ph : +27 (0)12 665-1338 | Specialists in data security | > | http://www.nanoteq.co.za | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Pierre_Andre van Leeuwen Electronic Engineer -------------------------------------------------------------- | E-mail : pvl@nanoteq.com | Nanoteq (Pty) Ltd. | | Ph : +27 (0)12 665-1338 | Specialists in data security | -------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 04:05:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA17861 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA17837 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA06586; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:52:35 +0800 (WST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:52:35 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Darren Reed , "David S. Miller" , fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: <25750.861125416@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > > with real budgets. > > You may be surprised. > A company that handles networking all the car dealers around Australia approached us for internet connectivity (weirdly enough, they are upstairs from us :). They run digital equipment and VMS exclusively on ALL their machines. Their link between their internal network and the internet is a lone FreeBSD box. They have no problems running FreeBSD on the box seperating this nice critical network from the rest of the internet :) It handles all their email and web (and soon will become three boxes, one for lot of virtual webserving, one for email and one as a firewall). Just another place where FreeBSD is used. :) Cya Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 04:20:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA19216 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA19204 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA10323; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:20:03 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:20 EDT Received: from lakes.water.net (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.water.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA00201; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.water.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) id HAA02544; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:01:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:01:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199704161101.HAA02544@lakes.water.net> To: ponds!root.com!dg, ponds!freebsd.org!hackers, ponds!cdsnet.net!mrcpu, ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers Subject: Re: More 2.2.1 panics: Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is one of the prototypical PANICs I have been seeing since 2.1.0 on my news server. If you'll look back in the mail archives for "dup alloc panics", and "daily panics". You'll see all of the information I've been able to dig up on the problem so far. I have a small reproduction of the problem - but I'm no longer convinced it is the same one... what I see in that is that: 1) a disk block is marked free 2) a write is performed to update the inode 3) the bits don't actually get out to the disk 4) a subsequent alloc reads the (older bits) from the disk; notes that disk inode already is allocated and does a "dup alloc" panic. You can see, if you make a slight change you can get: 1) A free inode is allocated 2) A write is performed to update the inode on disk. 3) The bits don't actually get out to the disk. 4) The allocated inode is freed, a read of the (older bits) indicate the inode wasn't allocated - you get a "freeing free inode" panic. I've duplicated the first situation in my small test-machine. But, my news/mail server experiences both of these... Something that helps reduce the frequency of the panics is to rebuild the file system; since that reduces the chance of hitting a previously-used inode. But that's a temporary fix, the problem quickly returns. If you'd let me know your hardware situation, that may possible help as well. - Dave Rivers - > > > UFS errors make me nervous... > > # gdb -k kernel.20 vmcore.20 > GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it > under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. > There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. > GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), > Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc... > IdlePTD 8df000 > current pcb at 1e7fc8 > panic: blkfree: freeing free block > #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 > 243 dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3(); > (kgdb) where > #0 boot (howto=256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243 > #1 0xf0112df3 in panic (fmt=0xf0192a2d "blkfree: freeing free block") > at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367 > #2 0xf0192bff in ffs_blkfree (ip=0xf4db4a00, bno=29776, size=8192) > at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_alloc.c:1230 > #3 0xf0194c7e in ffs_truncate (ap=0xefbffdf8) at > ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_inode.c:343 > #4 0xf0198be5 in ufs_inactive (ap=0xefbffe2c) at vnode_if.h:1003 > #5 0xf013214f in vrele (vp=0xf4dcc780) at vnode_if.h:699 > #6 0xf01ac615 in vnode_pager_dealloc (object=0xf4ec8100) > at ../../vm/vnode_pager.c:203 > #7 0xf01abafa in vm_pager_deallocate (object=0xf4ec8100) > at ../../vm/vm_pager.c:177 > #8 0xf01a6bb4 in vm_object_terminate (object=0xf4ec8100) > at ../../vm/vm_object.c:416 > #9 0xf01a69ef in vm_object_deallocate (object=0xf4ec8100) > at ../../vm/vm_object.c:353 > #10 0xf013208e in vrele (vp=0xf4dcc780) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:881 > #11 0xf0132003 in vput (vp=0xf4dcc780) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:858 > #12 0xf019c0ec in ufs_remove (ap=0xefbffef8) at > ../../ufs/ufs/ufs_vnops.c:695 > #13 0xf013441d in unlink (p=0xf4a20c00, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84) > at vnode_if.h:459 > #14 0xf01be32f in syscall (frame={tf_es = -272695257, tf_ds = -272695257, > tf_edi = 34197, tf_esi = -272640440, tf_ebp = -272640088, > ---Type to continue, or q to quit--- > tf_isp = -272629788, tf_ebx = 1, tf_edx = -272641536, tf_ecx = 0, > tf_eax = 10, tf_trapno = 7, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 268845169, tf_cs = > 31, > tf_eflags = 530, tf_esp = -272640484, tf_ss = 39}) > at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890 > #15 0x10064071 in ?? () > #16 0x2c98 in ?? () > #17 0x1095 in ?? () > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 04:20:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA19235 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA19211 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA10348; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:20:06 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:20 EDT Received: from lakes.water.net (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.water.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA00440; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:58:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.water.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) id HAA02575; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:04:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199704161104.HAA02575@lakes.water.net> To: ponds!cdsnet.net!mrcpu, ponds!dyson.iquest.net!toor Subject: Re: Doing the FreeBSD tightrope walk. Cc: ponds!FreeBSD.ORG!dyson, ponds!FreeBSD.ORG!hackers Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > What is aggravating I guess is that I can swear that I've seen on this > > list statements to the effect of "Bounce buffers support doesn't hurt > > anything, so you might as well leave it in". > > > So we were wrong :-). I always hated the bounce buffer support that > I wrote -- and would have done it better again. But darn'it I don't > think that there are many jobs for bounce-buffer writers :-). > > > > > Oh well, now if somebody fixes my regular NFS panics I will be a happier > > camper than you can imagine. > > > I'd love to work on it soon. Right now, my context is in the thread > support in current, and then BUGFIXES for the next few days. I am > bored of other things, and might look at NFS. > > John > I'd be happy to exercise any NFS changes you propose - particularly if they might bear on the readdir() and V2 problems I've been having. - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 04:28:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA20392 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-24.netcom.ca [207.181.94.88]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20353; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id IAA21572; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:26:23 -0300 (ADT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:26:23 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Seppo Kallio cc: Joe Greco , hackers@freebsd.org, questions@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is someone running heavy loaded inn server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Seppo Kallio wrote: > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Joe Greco wrote: > > > Not bad :-) Waaaaiittt... wha...? > > > > $ grep 104 top9703.html > > 104 1.43 newsfeed.kreonet.re.kr > > $ grep hub.org * > > top9701.html: 238 0.56 hub.org > > top9702.html: 139 0.93 hub.org > > top9703.html: 144 1.04 hub.org > > $ > > What is this? http://www.freenix.fr/top1000 Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 04:28:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA20460 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (widefw.csl.sony.co.jp [133.138.1.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20455 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 04:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp [43.27.98.57]) by widefw.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.3/3.5Wbeta) with ESMTP id LAA05877; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:28:36 GMT Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp (8.8.4/3.3W3) with ESMTP id UAA21402; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:28:19 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199704161128.UAA21402@hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp> To: rsvp-test@ISI.EDU Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, arl@arl.wustl.edu Subject: Re: ALTQ/CBQ alpha release In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:23:11 JST." <199703271323.WAA06023@hotaka.csl.sony.co.jp> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:28:18 +0900 From: Kenjiro Cho Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I am pleased to announce the first public alpha release of ALTQ/CBQ. >> ALTQ is an alternate queueing framework for BSD Unix, currently built >> on FreeBSD-2.2.1R. >> We have ported SUN/UCL/LBL-CBQ onto this framework, which can be used >> as a traffic control kernel for RSVP. Quite a few people downloaded the release but a bug is found in the RSVP stub in the release. It turned out that rsvpd is not able to create CBQ classes for reservations because of the initialization order problem. If you are using ALTQ/CBQ with RSVP, please apply the patch attached below to "cbq-rsvp/tc_cbq.c" (symbolic linked to "cbq-tools/rsvp_cbq.c") and re-make rsvpd. The release version number reflected this fix moved to 0.2.1. --- Kenjiro Cho Sony Computer Science Laboratory Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------ --- ../altq-0.2/cbq-rsvp/tc_cbq.c Thu Mar 27 20:38:06 1997 +++ tc_cbq.c Tue Apr 15 14:37:09 1997 @@ -171,6 +171,12 @@ if(cbq_init()) { log(LOG_WARNING, 0, "Can't initialize CBQ. Continuing without scheduling support\n", 0); } + +#if !defined(sun) + for (i = 0; i < if_num; i++) + tc_clear(i); +#endif + /* Initialize RSVP */ if (rsvp_config()) { log(LOG_ERR, 0, @@ -179,16 +185,14 @@ exit(-1); } +#if defined(sun) /* clear old reservations from the kernel and then make a * reservation for RSVP packets, on each interface. */ for (i = 0; i < if_num; i++) { -#if !defined(sun) - tc_clear(i); -#else kern_rsvpresv(i); -#endif } +#endif } #ifndef CBQDAEMON @@ -922,6 +926,7 @@ ifinfo->cd_class = new_cl; new_cl->acinfo.type = admission_type; #if !defined(sun) + new_cl->acinfo.pri = pri; new_cl->acinfo.bandwidth = bandwidth; #else new_cl->acinfo.bandwidth = ------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 05:22:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA23877 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA23871 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darkwing.stu.rpi.edu (darkwing@darkwing.stu.rpi.edu [128.113.162.187]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA121562; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:22:01 -0400 Message-ID: <3354C427.8D76BBFA@rpi.edu> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:20:55 -0400 From: "Brian T. Osman" Reply-To: osmanb@acm.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3C (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: drew@sml.co.jp CC: Justin Wolf , "'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'" , Golan Klinger , "rsacrack@vex.net" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com" Subject: Re: First place. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199704160738.QAA02522@mx.sml.co.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk drew@sml.co.jp wrote: > > Justin Wolf : > > You actually think that DES is too weak when it takes all the > >hackers in the known unix world to stage an attempt which has > >been so far unsuccessful? Hmm... different point of view I guess. > > You actually think that the US government doesn't have at least ten > times the computing power of everyone in this effort put together? > Hell, they've probably got that much computing power just in people's > desktop workstations. The fact is, 56-bit keys are useless when up > against the US Government. > > -- > Drew Hamilton -- drew@sml.co.jp -- http://www.drew-hamilton.net/ Not to mention large, international corporations. We have 2000 thousand computers! That is NOTHING! NOTHING! Think about the cmoputing power that Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Motorola, Apple, anyone could get together!!! They just don't want to right now, because it would only prove that they are in a position to conduct industrial espionage. Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 05:36:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA24472 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [206.28.134.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA24467 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-20.cybercom.net [206.28.134.52]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA08549; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970416123607.006e0f38@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:36:07 -0400 To: Jaye Mathisen , hackers@freebsd.org From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 01:38 AM 4/16/97 -0700, Jaye Mathisen wrote: >It seems that if you do a fresh install via the boot disk, and select the >option to install packages after the bindist stuff is downloaded, you >can't exit the menu unless you install some package. Doesn't matter which >one, but you gotta install one... Not to fan the flames, but has anyone ever considered converting Slackware's installation program to FreeBSD. Though I prefer FreeBSD (slightly) to Linux, I must admit that I find Slackware much easier to install coming from my non-technical standpoint. (Which probably has most of you asking why I'm on the list anyway.) Slackware usually sets up good defaults based on the input from the menu-driven installation, whereas FreeBSD requires more tweaking after installation. Thanks, K.-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 05:58:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA25326 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (taob@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA25313 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12966; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:57:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RSA] First place. In-Reply-To: <27548.861145248@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Uhh. I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but can you guys > take this whole RSA crack discussion to a different place? > Maybe even create a mailing list for it? :-) There is already a mailing list for it. ;-) I've e-mailed a reminder to the other two lists involved and to some of the recent participants to trim their To/Cc lines before sending out a reply. Hopefully it will die out here soon. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 06:02:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA25513 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (taob@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA25503 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taob@localhost) by tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA12992; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:00:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao To: Pierre Van Leeuwen cc: FreeBSD-hackers Subject: Re: tcsh bug? In-Reply-To: <199704161021.MAA01779@oskar.nanoteq.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Pierre Van Leeuwen wrote: > > my apologies, found the error. :) > Right after the cd command, I called a script from an nfs mounted > disk, and the permissions weren't correct. Therefore, ignore my > complaint/question ;) Sure, but that still should not cause a reproduceable kernel panic, unless you really do have hardware problems on that machine. It sounds like the kernel is unable to swap in some memory pages. > > The directory would get created, but the cd $t_dir would > > invoke the debugger: > > > > vnode_pager_getpages : I/O read error > > vm_fault : pager input (probably hardware) error > > > > Fatal trap 12 : page fault while in kernel mode -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 06:10:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA25793 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA25780 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id OAA02421; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:22:47 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Mail exploders... To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:22:46 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, in the last 2 weeks or so, connectivity from my site to some other internet sites (not all of them, though, e.g. berkeley.edu is very well reachable, whereas cdrom.com is not!) has become pretty bad, with losses in the order of 40% or more, and I have a strong feeling (because I see followups but not the original messages) that many messages of the mailing list are not delivered. I think the freebsd lists are actually served by different mail exploders, and the one serving me is bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de, which at the moment is very poorly connected (as a matter of fact, it is even a 4-5 hops further away than freefall!). So I am wondering how are the mail exploders chosen for a given site, and if there is a possibility for a subscriber to select one which is closer (networkwise) and/or better connected to his site. Thanks Luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 06:36:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA27053 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itsdsv1.enc.edu (itsdsv1.enc.edu [207.95.42.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA27046 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dingo.its.enc.edu (dingo.its.enc.edu [207.95.222.250]) by itsdsv1.enc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA03363; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:43:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Owens X-Sender: owensc@dingo.its.enc.edu To: Jeff Roberts cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, Chris Coleman Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Jeff Roberts wrote: > > > Chris Coleman on Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 said: > > > > > I was checking out the Anti-virus programs for FreeBSD by McAffee > > > and ran it on my system. It showed that I had SEVERAL files infected with > > > a SYSLOCK virus. Any one know about this stuff? > > > > > > Is it worth buying, and is SYSLOCK a real threat? > > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > > Chris, > > > > I tried out the Mcafee ViruScan for FreeBSD ("uvscan") and had the same > > results. I scanned a large collection of PC files and a hundred or so > > were reported to have this virus. Given that many of the files were GIFs > > and other pure data formats I was skeptical of the results. > > > > So... I spend an hour or so chatting to a nice guy at Mcafee tech support. > > I mailed him a supposedly infected file (a Powerpoint file) and he scanned > > it with his Linux and DOS versions of VirusScan and found no sign of > > infection. He sent the info off to development so the bug can be fixed. > > > (Jeff) > > What version # is this? The 1.01E on their Web site now, or an earlier > release? Yes, 1.01E. This is an older scanning engine, but it does work with their up-to-date virus data files. I asked the McAfee tech about this and he said that there'd be newer versions at some point, but that Unix development takes a back seat to Windows. The guy I spoke with handles all of the tech support for all Unix versions of VirusScan. He said that I was the _only_ person to ever call about the FreeBSD version... there have only been a handful of calls about the Linux version. --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles N. Owens Email: owensc@enc.edu http://www.enc.edu/~owensc Network & Systems Administrator Information Technology Services "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's Eastern Nazarene College best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 07:07:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA28500 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.it.hq.nasa.gov (apollo.it.hq.nasa.gov [131.182.119.87]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28489 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wirehead.it.hq.nasa.gov (WireHead.it.hq.nasa.gov [131.182.119.88]) by apollo.it.hq.nasa.gov (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA16281 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (cshenton@localhost) by wirehead.it.hq.nasa.gov (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA02408 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:07:07 GMT Message-Id: <199704161407.OAA02408@wirehead.it.hq.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: wirehead.it.hq.nasa.gov: cshenton owned process doing -bs To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: 2.2.1-R crash with looped serial gettys In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 05:36:25 -0700 (PDT)" References: <199704161236.FAA24481@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.03 on Emacs 19.34.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:07:07 -0400 From: Chris Shenton Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've built a little box for pppd/mpd and routing out of a 486sx33 and a whopping 8MB RAM; seems to mostly run fine with 2.2.1-RELEASE. It's a fairly minimal install (Kernel User option I think) and I rebuilt the kernel to fit the hardware. I've added a dual 16550A serial port card to which I'll connect a pair of modems. I have getty running on the ports, cuaa1 and cuaa2. PROBLEM: If I connect a null-modem cable between the ports, the system crashes within a couple seconds. It's repeatable. It leaves no message in /var/log/messages, or dmesg, and there's no core file. I presume looping the serial gettys is causing them to scream at each other "Login:"; "Invalid Login:"; no *you* login; dammit, `login' is not a valid login... and consumes too many resources. Not sure if there's an intelligent way to detect this and prevent it, but it did seem surprising that simply connecting a cable crashed the machine. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 07:10:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA28875 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aviion.ts.kiev.ua (aviion.ts.kiev.ua [193.124.229.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA28725 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nbki.ipri.kiev.ua by aviion.ts.kiev.ua with ESMTP id OAA24070; (8.6.11/zah/2.1) Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:39:12 GMT Received: from cki.ipri.kiev.ua by nbki.ipri.kiev.ua with ESMTP id PAA09547; (8.6.9/zah/1.1) Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:40:46 +0100 Received: from 194.44.146.14 (mac.ipri.kiev.ua [194.44.146.14]) by cki.ipri.kiev.ua (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA04745 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:46:15 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3354BC3C.2F@cki.ipri.kiev.ua> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:47:06 +0300 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@cki.ipri.kiev.ua Organization: IPRI X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> <19970416125329.34879@usn.blaze.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Sat Apr 12 13:08:52 EST 1997, Warner Losh writes: > > In message <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> Giles Lean writes: > > [ use smrsh ] > > : I recommend that we make this change for the 3.0 release. > > > > Me too. Any objection to just doing it? > It's about keeping all info in /etc/sysconfig ? If yes, that how about checking for agree with traditional /etc files and new staff ? The idea, that if we have 2 sources of system information, that it must equal. (as in theory of databases) It is possible, do next ? if file exists read var from it (by sed) compare with var in sysconfig if [they are not equal] do (mail sysadmin, prompt ..) fi fi And write 2 programs: 1. etc.export.sysvars (/etc/sysconfig -> /etc/.....) 2. etc.import.sysvars (/etc/.. -> /etc/sysconfig) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 07:20:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA29424 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-46.netcom.ca [207.181.94.110]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29417 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost.hub.org [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id LAA00474; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:20:03 -0300 (ADT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:20:03 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Charles Owens cc: Jeff Roberts , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, Chris Coleman Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > The guy I spoke with handles all of the tech support for all Unix versions > of VirusScan. He said that I was the _only_ person to ever call about the > FreeBSD version... there have only been a handful of calls about the Linux > version. Until reading this thread, I didn't even know *Unix* versions existed, let along Linux -or- FreeBSD ones *shrug* Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 08:14:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA02265 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itu.cc.jyu.fi (root@itu.cc.jyu.fi [130.234.40.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02257; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by itu.cc.jyu.fi (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA18367; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:14:37 +0300 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:14:36 +0300 (EET DST) From: Seppo Kallio To: hardware@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org cc: Seppo Kallio Subject: Repeated UNIT ATTENTION, what is it, is this serious? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a Pentium P90 Intel Zappa, FreeBSD 2.1.5 NFS server. It has one AHA 2940 + 3 Seagate disks (2+4+4G) and one AHA 2940 + HP Tape robot I am getting more and more this kind of error messages. First suspected the HP dat tape causing them. (That is why I have it in it's own AHA2940). The errors seem to happen regularly but not in peak hours, the usual clock times are about 02 04 05 08 14 16 17 19 20 21 22 23. It fits somehow to the tape activity but not 100%. I am taking backups at night time from 00:00 to 09:00. Is this a sign of some hardware problem? SCSI cable, terminator, some disk having malfunction? Or is this the aic7xxx driver problem I have heard? uname -a FreeBSD motti.cc.jyu.fi 2.1.5-RELEASE FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE #0: Wed Jul 17 03:09:31 1996 jkh@whisker.cdrom.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/GENERIC i386 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: sd2(ahc0:4:0): timed out in dataout phase, SCSISIGI == 0x4 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: ahc0: Issued Channel A Bus Reset #2. 3 SCBs aborted Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: sd1(ahc0:2:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: sd1(ahc0:2:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred field replaceable unit: 1 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: , retries:3 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: sd2(ahc0:4:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: sd2(ahc0:4:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred field replaceable unit: 1 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: , retries:3 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: sd0(ahc0:0:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: sd0(ahc0:0:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred field replaceable unit: 1 Apr 13 21:15:10 motti /kernel: , retries:4 Seppo Kallio kallio@cc.jyu.fi Computing Center 553606 (sisäinen), 050 5524968 (suora ulkoa) U of Jyväskylä 62.14N 25.44E Fax +358-14-603611 PL 35, 40351 Jyväskylä, Finland http://www.jyu.fi/~kallio From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 08:22:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA02632 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02625 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA17764 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970416112116.00b612e0@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:21:19 -0400 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis Subject: bcopy - quad aligned? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does bcopy() auto-handle quad alignment? I'm seeing some strangeness on non-aligned transfers from PCI shared memory...noting that PCI 32-bit transfers must be quad aligned.... Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 08:26:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA02811 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lucifer.bus.orst.edu (lucifer.TestLab.ORST.EDU [128.193.78.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02806 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lucifer.TestLab.ORST.EDU with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id <2BAY9WNT>; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:29:55 -0700 Message-ID: <71846B925036CF11BD6D00C0D1570929101384@lucifer.TestLab.ORST.EDU> From: Adam Haberlach To: "'Justin Wolf'" , rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org, deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Subject: RE: First place. Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:29:53 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- - -----Original Message----- From: Justin Wolf [SMTP:jjwolf@bleeding.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 1997 11:43 PM To: 'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'; Golan Klinger Cc: rsacrack@vex.net; hackers@freebsd.org; deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Subject: RE: First place. >You actually think that DES is too weak when it takes all the >hackers in the known unix world to stage an attempt which has >been so far unsuccessful? Hmm... different point of view I >guess. Err--that's not really the point. We've doing this with only $10,000 as our reward, and without spending any money on hardware. The only resources we're using already exist.. If you give me $500,000 and three months, I will build you a system to crack codes in days instead of months. Has anyone done the calculations to see how long it would take Intel's Teraflops computer to crack DES? DES is always crackable given enough time or money. We're doing it with _no_ money and taking 150 days to do it. Right now I'm trying to convince one of our support-droids that the 'computer resources' he is trying so hard to save are merely going to screen updates of a login banner. On almost 100 machines. - --- Adam Haberlach haberlaa@ucs.orst.edu http://www.engr.orst.edu/~haberlad Crack DES now! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBM1Tv3hSmwqZasiJdAQGG5AP9H+3jgEq+y6mUkRrDZ+LK09fiLAjXIIDz Z5Qbb9Cql1dzsVVY3ZsQzphyE+gT+zM9Fbn2yDbfsDLX+vDc4dvhX22cvVIJcN9J N0InRBDWH6fcEX4Cmq+lGHXSb8jx/iwbYW4gGkT7++UuZC/VKDPy3jBnltodivpr aEXRg6CdX18= =ZSIJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 08:29:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA03060 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aries.bb.cc.wa.us (root@[208.8.136.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA03053 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by aries.bb.cc.wa.us (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA16590; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:24:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Coleman To: The Hermit Hacker cc: Charles Owens , Jeff Roberts , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > > > The guy I spoke with handles all of the tech support for all Unix versions > > of VirusScan. He said that I was the _only_ person to ever call about the > > FreeBSD version... there have only been a handful of calls about the Linux > > version. > > Until reading this thread, I didn't even know *Unix* versions existed, > let along Linux -or- FreeBSD ones *shrug* > Just to make sure you understood. (becuase I didn't until i looked at it) This is a FreeBSD virus scanner to scan msdos files that happen to be stored on your FreeBSD server. It is not a scanner to find FreeBSD viruses. I think it is meant for use with things like SAMBA servers. We have a couple servers running SAMBA and dishing out files, so that is why we are looking into it. Should I call Mcaffee and lodge a bug notice, just to add a few numbers to the group? or Do you think you have covered it? I am fairly sure we are going to purchase it. > Marc G. Fournier > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > Christopher J. Coleman (chris@aries.bb.cc.wa.us) Computer Support Technician I (509)-766-8873 Big Bend Community College Internet Instructor FreeBSD Book Project: http://vinyl.quickweb.com/~chrisc/book.html Disclaimer: Even Though it has My Name on it, Doesn't mean I said it. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 08:50:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04149 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itsdsv1.enc.edu (itsdsv1.enc.edu [207.95.42.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04140 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dingo.its.enc.edu (dingo.its.enc.edu [207.95.222.250]) by itsdsv1.enc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA07177; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:55:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Owens X-Sender: owensc@dingo.its.enc.edu To: Chris Coleman cc: The Hermit Hacker , Jeff Roberts , hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Chris Coleman wrote: > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > > > > > The guy I spoke with handles all of the tech support for all Unix versions > > > of VirusScan. He said that I was the _only_ person to ever call about the > > > FreeBSD version... there have only been a handful of calls about the Linux > > > version. > > > > Until reading this thread, I didn't even know *Unix* versions existed, > > let along Linux -or- FreeBSD ones *shrug* > > > Just to make sure you understood. (becuase I didn't until i looked at it) > This is a FreeBSD virus scanner to scan msdos files that happen to be > stored on your FreeBSD server. It is not a scanner to find FreeBSD > viruses. I think it is meant for use with things like SAMBA servers. We > have a couple servers running SAMBA and dishing out files, so that is why > we are looking into it. > > Should I call Mcaffee and lodge a bug notice, just to add a few numbers to > the group? or Do you think you have covered it? Hey... the more the better! The tech support guy did say that he'd have development look at it, but from some other comments that he made I got the impression that it might not be very high on their priority list. > I am fairly sure we are going to purchase it. Me too. We could probably use the Linux version (I have not tested it under FreeBSD emulation to see if the same SYSLOCK bug exists) but I'd much rather see them get the point that their are interested FreeBSD users out there. So, ANYONE, if you might conceivably buy this product, call McAfee tech support and tell them that you'd really like to see the false-SYSLOCK-virus-detected bug fixed in the FreeBSD version of VirusScan. Call 408-988-3832 and ask for Tech Support for Unix VirusScan or send email to support@cc.mcafee.com. :-) --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles N. Owens Email: owensc@enc.edu http://www.enc.edu/~owensc Network & Systems Administrator Information Technology Services "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's Eastern Nazarene College best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 08:59:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04502 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vital.bleeding.com (vital.bleeding.com [205.166.195.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04497 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crimson (crimson.bleeding.com [205.166.254.2]) by vital.bleeding.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA22233; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by crimson with Microsoft Mail id <01BC4A44.91B7BAA0@crimson>; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:00:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC4A44.91B7BAA0@crimson> From: Justin Wolf To: "'drew@sml.co.jp'" , "'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'" , Golan Klinger , "rsacrack@vex.net" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com" Subject: RE: First place. Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:05:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id IAA04498 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Key size, key size... 56-bits has to do with the key size. DES can easily go to 112-bit triple which would be impossible to crack in any reasonable amount of time, even for the government. At such time where 112-bit triple DES became crackable, people would start using something else anyway, like 224-bit quadruple DES or 1024-bit layered RSA or whatever. There's nothing inherently wrong with DES, just the key size which is currently being allowed for export. As far as symmetric algorithms go, it's pretty good. And if you want to make it more difficult to crack use non-standard techniques within the algorithm (sure it's non-standard and there's a chance you'll break it, but someone would have to figure out that you changed the algorithm first). Remember, chose an encryption technique that will protect the data as long as the data needs to be protected. How many times do you think a secret that needs to be protected for eternity is sent over the internet or allowed outside of the two people (or person) involved? It doesn't get emailed, it gets hand couriered. I could go on but, it doesn't really matter anyway. People have opinions which blind them into incoherency. -Justin -----Original Message----- From: drew@sml.co.jp [SMTP:drew@sml.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 1997 12:42 AM To: Justin Wolf; 'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'; Golan Klinger; rsacrack@vex.net; hackers@freebsd.org; deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Subject: RE: First place. >You actually think that DES is too weak when it takes all the >hackers in the known unix world to stage an attempt which has >been so far unsuccessful? Hmm... different point of view I guess. You actually think that the US government doesn't have at least ten times the computing power of everyone in this effort put together? Hell, they've probably got that much computing power just in people's desktop workstations. The fact is, 56-bit keys are useless when up against the US Government. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 09:09:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA05159 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vital.bleeding.com (vital.bleeding.com [205.166.195.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05131 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crimson (crimson.bleeding.com [205.166.254.2]) by vital.bleeding.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA22273; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by crimson with Microsoft Mail id <01BC4A46.41CAB0E0@crimson>; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:12:07 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC4A46.41CAB0E0@crimson> From: Justin Wolf To: "'osmanb@acm.org'" , "drew@sml.co.jp" Cc: "'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'" , Golan Klinger , "rsacrack@vex.net" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com" Subject: RE: First place. Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:12:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id JAA05138 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I didn't realize we had such conspiracy theorists out here. Why would anyone want to conduct industrial espionage with Apple anyway? They don't have anything anyone wants. -Justin -----Original Message----- From: Brian T. Osman [SMTP:osmanb@rpi.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 1997 5:21 AM To: drew@sml.co.jp Cc: Justin Wolf; 'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'; Golan Klinger; rsacrack@vex.net; hackers@freebsd.org; deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Subject: Re: First place. drew@sml.co.jp wrote: > > Justin Wolf : > > You actually think that DES is too weak when it takes all the > >hackers in the known unix world to stage an attempt which has > >been so far unsuccessful? Hmm... different point of view I guess. > > You actually think that the US government doesn't have at least ten > times the computing power of everyone in this effort put together? > Hell, they've probably got that much computing power just in people's > desktop workstations. The fact is, 56-bit keys are useless when up > against the US Government. > > -- > Drew Hamilton -- drew@sml.co.jp -- http://www.drew-hamilton.net/ Not to mention large, international corporations. We have 2000 thousand computers! That is NOTHING! NOTHING! Think about the cmoputing power that Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Motorola, Apple, anyone could get together!!! They just don't want to right now, because it would only prove that they are in a position to conduct industrial espionage. Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 09:10:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA05343 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vital.bleeding.com (vital.bleeding.com [205.166.195.252]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA05326 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crimson (crimson.bleeding.com [205.166.254.2]) by vital.bleeding.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA22283; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by crimson with Microsoft Mail id <01BC4A46.7D3F5540@crimson>; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:13:46 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC4A46.7D3F5540@crimson> From: Justin Wolf To: "'Adam Haberlach'" , "rsacrack@vex.net" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com" Subject: RE: First place. Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:13:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id JAA05335 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk True, you should be doing it for the money. Since it doesn't really prove anything, that about all it's worth. Ten g's over all the people involved works out to what... about a buck each? Doesn't sound like it's really worth your time... how much do you make an hour at your job? Bah... why are we ranting? -Justin -----Original Message----- From: Adam Haberlach [SMTP:HaberlaA@testlab.orst.edu] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 1997 8:30 AM To: 'Justin Wolf'; rsacrack@vex.net; hackers@freebsd.org; deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Subject: RE: First place. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- - -----Original Message----- From: Justin Wolf [SMTP:jjwolf@bleeding.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 1997 11:43 PM To: 'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'; Golan Klinger Cc: rsacrack@vex.net; hackers@freebsd.org; deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Subject: RE: First place. >You actually think that DES is too weak when it takes all the >hackers in the known unix world to stage an attempt which has >been so far unsuccessful? Hmm... different point of view I >guess. Err--that's not really the point. We've doing this with only $10,000 as our reward, and without spending any money on hardware. The only resources we're using already exist.. If you give me $500,000 and three months, I will build you a system to crack codes in days instead of months. Has anyone done the calculations to see how long it would take Intel's Teraflops computer to crack DES? DES is always crackable given enough time or money. We're doing it with _no_ money and taking 150 days to do it. Right now I'm trying to convince one of our support-droids that the 'computer resources' he is trying so hard to save are merely going to screen updates of a login banner. On almost 100 machines. - --- Adam Haberlach haberlaa@ucs.orst.edu http://www.engr.orst.edu/~haberlad Crack DES now! http://www.frii.com/~rcv/deschall.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBM1Tv3hSmwqZasiJdAQGG5AP9H+3jgEq+y6mUkRrDZ+LK09fiLAjXIIDz Z5Qbb9Cql1dzsVVY3ZsQzphyE+gT+zM9Fbn2yDbfsDLX+vDc4dvhX22cvVIJcN9J N0InRBDWH6fcEX4Cmq+lGHXSb8jx/iwbYW4gGkT7++UuZC/VKDPy3jBnltodivpr aEXRg6CdX18= =ZSIJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 09:29:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06318 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omniset.com (rcy3.info.isdnet.fr [194.149.182.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06311 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.omniset.com [127.0.0.1]) by omniset.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA00925 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:28:20 GMT Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:28:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: "didier@omnix.fr.org" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: ppp / tcp problem with October 14th FreeBSD 2.2 SNAPSHOT Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm trying to link two networks with user ppp / isdn line. I've two networks network A 192.168.0 (my client) network B 192.168.2 (my network) I established a ppp link trough 192.168.3.1 (my side) and 192.168.3.2 (the client side) On the client side, I'm using "ppp -auto mysite" and "ppp -direct" on my side and ppp. when the client wants to establish a connection, ppp works fine. I'm able to use ping -f on both sides. It seems that all udp clients works fine. but when I want to use a tcp connection (for example telnet) It takes more than one minute to get an answer. In fact it seems that each time each time an application has to send a lot of data the tcp connection hangs. even with the tcp extension disabled. I can reproduce the problem with tcpblast. it hangs each time. however ping even with a large packet always works fine. (7000 packet with 0% packet lost) I checked with tcpdump -i tun0 without any other connection to the client side. It took more than one minute for a telnet connection to acces the client side. without any packet transmited to the tun0 interface. The client side is running FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE. Do you have any clue ? In the mean time, I'm downloading the last release of FreeBSD with user ppp on a diallup Internet access (without any problem) Thanks for your help -- Didier Derny didier@omniset.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 09:36:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06683 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [206.222.77.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06678 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA23059; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970416122940.60713@vinyl.quickweb.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:29:40 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Justin Wolf Cc: "'drew@sml.co.jp'" , "'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'" , Golan Klinger , "rsacrack@vex.net" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com" Subject: Re: First place. References: <01BC4A44.91B7BAA0@crimson> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <01BC4A44.91B7BAA0@crimson>; from Justin Wolf on Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 08:05:50AM -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 08:05:50AM -0700, Justin Wolf wrote: > Key size, key size... 56-bits has to do with the key size. DES can easily go to 112-bit triple which would be impossible to crack in any reasonable amount of time, even for the government. At such time where 112-bit triple DES became crackable, people would start using something else anyway, like 224-bit quadruple DES or 1024-bit layered RSA or whatever. There's nothing inherently wrong with DES, just the key size which is currently being allowed for export. As far as symmetric algorithms go, it's pretty good. And if you want to make it more difficult to crack use non-standard techniques within the algorithm (sure it's non-standard and there's a chance you'll break it, but someone would have to figure out that you changed the algorithm first). > > Remember, chose an encryption technique that will protect the data as long as the data needs to be protected. How many times do you think a secret that needs to be protected for eternity is sent over the internet or allowed outside of the two people (or person) involved? It doesn't get emailed, it gets hand couriered. And why should I have to pay for a guy to drive up to my company in a large, fossil fuel burning van just to send confdential data? Do you think it would be hard to hi-jack that guy in the van? Of course not... I want to be able to have private data transfer, to anyone I wish to communicte with.. > > I could go on but, it doesn't really matter anyway. People have opinions which blind them into incoherency. > Well, the one point you're missing is that it has be PROVEN that a VLSI team could build a custom cracking machine (with very modest hardware requirements) that can crack DES in hours... You can be sure the US gov. has one (hell, I would if I were in that position!). The problem is that DES isn't good enough anymore. Now, I do think that the 56-bit RC5 challenge is a different story, since that's a fairly solid algorithm AFAIK - that challenge is a bit pointless IMHO, since increasing the key size makes it damn near impossible to crack. Once again: DES is weak. Of course, it's all pointles since the US gov. won't allow the export of ANY real cryptography, DES or RC5... that's the real issue. Luckily, I'm in Canada and my gov. isn't quite so stupid (although I'm sure they would do something like this if they had DES cracking hardware that they wanted to protect their investment on...). Still, I feel the blow of retarded US crypto laws everytime I do business with a US customer. So, the issue isn't quite so simple, 'nor is the effort pointless. -Mark > -Justin > > -----Original Message----- > From: drew@sml.co.jp [SMTP:drew@sml.co.jp] > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 1997 12:42 AM > To: Justin Wolf; 'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'; Golan Klinger; rsacrack@vex.net; hackers@freebsd.org; deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com > Subject: RE: First place. > > >You actually think that DES is too weak when it takes all the > >hackers in the known unix world to stage an attempt which has > >been so far unsuccessful? Hmm... different point of view I guess. > > You actually think that the US government doesn't have at least ten > times the computing power of everyone in this effort put together? > Hell, they've probably got that much computing power just in people's > desktop workstations. The fact is, 56-bit keys are useless when up > against the US Government. > -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com RingZero Comp. http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark finger mark@quickweb.com for my PGP key and GCS code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be thought incapable. -Sir Peter Imbert From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 10:03:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08093 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cold.org (cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08083 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by cold.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA02647 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:03:45 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:03:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Gillespie To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: kernel config 'doconfig' (was: Re: Another Linux Religious war) In-Reply-To: <335293EF.535B@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > I do have (I hope) some constructive suggestions, after having a crack > on a Linux box: > 1) I like our way of rebuilding the kernel, but perhaps "we" (actually a > good programmer, not me) could add a program or script that would ask > the options for the desired kernel and will help build the configuration > file. Nothing really fancy is required, maybe even a PERL script should > be enough. Actually, I agree. In digital unix 4.0 kernel rebuilds are nearly exactly the same as FreeBSD (the idea has the same roots), except for they wrap everything up in a command 'doconfig' which pops you into an editor for your kernel config file, when you are done editing it it just says 'building kernel now' and every five minutes or so it says: Working .. And when its done you just move the built kernel to / and reboot. If there are errors it tells you, and points to the logfile for them. It also lets you edit the config file seperately, and you can give it to it. Basically, putting this into the FreeBSD scope it'd be really cool to just have a 'doconfig' program which did the same. I can whip up something in perl, if there is interest. Some of the man page for doconfig (more comments after the manpage): ---------------------------- SYNOPSIS /usr/sbin/doconfig [-s | -b] [-c config_file -dn] [ -e ed_script] FLAGS The /usr/sbin/doconfig program supports the following flags: -b Specifies that you want to build a bootstrap linked kernel. A bootstrap linked kernel is built directly into memory, without writing an executable file to disk. To create the kernel, the bootstrap program reads a text file that describes the hardware and software support needed in the kernel. See the Writing Dev- ice Drivers: Advanced Topics manual for more information. You cannot use this flag with the -s flag, which builds an exe- cutable image file called /vmunix. The -b flag has no effect if specified with the -d flag. -c config_file Specifies that you want to build a kernel using the existing con- figuration file, config_file. The configuration file resides in the /usr/sys/conf directory and is usually named using the system name, in uppercase letters. You must supply the name of the existing configuration file without specifying the pathname. The /usr/sbin/doconfig program also uses any existing config- file.list file. If there is no config_file.list file and a .product.list file exists, /usr/sbin/doconfig copies the .product.list file to the config_file.list file. These files must exist in the /sys/conf directory. -d Specifies that only device special files are created. -e ed-script Specifies that you want to run the specified ed editor script on the configuration file before a new kernel is built. -n Builds a network-bootable kernel for Dataless Management Services (DMS) clients. The -n flag invokes the pmerge utility, which builds a stripped network-bootable kernel called .vmunix. This flag is used by the dataless management utility, dmu during its configuration phase. For more information, see dmu(8) and pmerge(8). -s Specifies that you want to build a statically linked kernel. A statically linked kernel is a traditional kernel, built and stored in an executable image file called /vmunix. This flag is the default if you omit the -b and -s flags. You cannot use this flag with the -b flag, which builds a bootstrap linked kernel, or the -d flag. This flag has no effect when specified with the -n flag. ---------------------------- For FreeBSD I'd suggest the -c and -e option, and possibly -d (altho I don't know how relevant to FreeBSD it is). Altho, I think -e should be default on if you don't specify -cFILE. I'd also like to add '-i' and '-r' where '-i' automatically installs the kernel in '/' and '-r' will automatically reboot (after its done, prompt you saying 'kernel rebuild is completed, press any key to reboot). Comments? -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 10:52:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18365 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18233; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 10:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13803; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:39:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704161739.NAA13803@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Repeated UNIT ATTENTION, what is it, is this serious? In-Reply-To: from Seppo Kallio at "Apr 16, 97 06:14:36 pm" To: kallio@cc.jyu.fi (Seppo Kallio) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:39:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, kallio@cc.jyu.fi X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is this a sign of some hardware problem? SCSI cable, terminator, some disk > having malfunction? Or is this the aic7xxx driver problem I have heard? The unit attention errors are the drives informing you about the bus having been reset. That is a symptom and not a problem; the bus reset was done by the ahc driver after getting that time out. I can't answer as to WHY it timed out. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 11:06:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA21447 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from borg.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21436 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (user-37kb9dj.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.165.179]) by borg.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05412; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970416180629.008e56c8@mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:06:29 -0400 To: Darren Reed From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:30 PM 4/15/97 +1000, Darren Reed wrote: >In some mail from David S. Miller, sie said: >> >> Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the >> Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a >> free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly >> interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is >> just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > >I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything >that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And >I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations >with real budgets. *waves hand* Hey there! Hi! Where I work we use Apache, with a custom module (or two) written by me. We've got several thousand users, worldwide, with a large number of them located at our HQ (where I am). This is on a corporate "Intranet". We serve pages out of AFS, and use AFS ACLs for access control. Our old server was NCSA, and it didn't allow us to do this. We actually had managers complaining to the Vice President of the division about NCSA's lack of access control via AFS. Our VP didn't care that we were using Apache per se, he just knew that we got 1) a huge speed increase 2) Satisfied management by giving them control, and 3) didn't ask for any money. Since we moved to Apache, usage has been steadily increasing -- we got 1.6 million hits in March, for example. We are now looking towards some sort of load management, perhaps a huge machine, perhaps many small ones. Now if I could just get them to accept FreeBSD... -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci. - House of Retrocomputing XCOMM mailto:kpneal@pobox.com - http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ XCOMM kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates: XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 11:20:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25614 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dg-rtp.dg.com (dg-rtp.rtp.dg.com [128.222.1.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25600 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dg-rtp.dg.com (5.4R3.10/dg-rtp-v02) id AA19938; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:20:08 -0400 Received: from ponds by dg-rtp.dg.com.rtp.dg.com; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:20 EDT Received: from lakes.water.net (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.water.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA13655; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.water.net (8.8.3/8.6.9) id NAA03099; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:48:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199704161748.NAA03099@lakes.water.net> To: ponds!freefall.cdrom.com!freebsd-hackers, ponds!quickweb.com!mark, ponds!lakes.water.net!rivers Subject: Re: "calcru: negative time" messages (FreeBSD-2.2.1) Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, Apr 09, 1997 at 04:36:43PM -0400, Thomas David Rivers wrote: > > > > I'm getting these messages after my install of 2.2.1: > > > > Apr 9 16:30:25 numb /kernel: calcru: negative time: -330 usec > > Apr 9 16:30:25 numb /kernel: calcru: negative time: -330 usec > > > > They don't seem to obviously coincide with anythine; can anyone > > shed some light on this? > > Do you have: > options "CLK_USE_I586_CALIBRATION" > > in your kernel? On my PPro 150, without this I would randomly get these > messages all the time. My CPU speed detection would vary greatly as well. > Since I added the above option, my CPU speed is detected correctly on > boot, and I don't get ANY calcru: negative time: messsages! Happy. > > Maybe this is it? I'm assuming it's only valid for Pentium and above CPUs, > however. > > -Mark > No, I hadn't tried that. At the time, I was running a GENERIC 2.2.1 kernel. I did rebuild a kernel with Bruce's fix to isa/clock.c; and haven't seen the problem since - could it have been blocked RTC interrupts? - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 11:27:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27634 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27620 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA27657; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:04:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704161804.LAA27657@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:04:50 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704160329.VAA04560@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 15, 97 09:29:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > You can complain that the discussion is not resolving "the real issue", > > but the complaints do no good without some action to put in their stead; > > what implementable *process* do you propose? > > Pot, kettle, black. There is a difference between not proposing a process at all, and proposing one which is not accepted for non-techinical reasons. He has now proposed a process (which was all I was asking for in my cat belling posting). If this is a specific reference to my VFS arguments, I propose you integrate my patches. I will even send you updated copies against -current, if you can't figure out how to resolve any conflicts. If this is in reference to something else, name it, and I will propose a process for it. It will probably be a reiteration of something of mine you can already find by searching the list archives, but I'll do it. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 11:34:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29769 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA29746 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA27684; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:12:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704161812.LAA27684@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: floppy disks To: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:12:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <33544F1B.3F54BC7E@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> from "Jim Durham" at Apr 16, 97 00:01:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I believe it works on DOS also (hmmmm...ever look at DOS 1.0 vis-a-vis > CP/M?).. > (My old CP/M box was an Altair with Persci 8 inchers and a Tarbell > controller.) Did you decode the Tarbell format message in Isao Tomita's rendition of Musorgsky's "Pictures At An Exhibition" from the piece "Dance Of Chicks In their Shells"? Just curious... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 11:39:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00780 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00765 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA05633 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA27696; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:15:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704161815.LAA27696@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Problems with afterstep and swap To: mark@quickweb.com (Mark Mayo) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:15:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: mestery@cobber.cord.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19970416015251.01090@vinyl.quickweb.com> from "Mark Mayo" at Apr 16, 97 01:52:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Take a look and see how much memory your X-Server is using. If it's a lot, > disabling BACKING_STORE will dramitically reduce the memory size of > the X-Server. On my machine (using the Xinsde AccelX server) Netscape > was a pig with BACKING_STORE.... I turned it off, and now my Xserver > size stays consitent at a more reasonable figure. There needs to be a way to disable backing store on a per client basis. There are a lot of programs that are molasses slow without it, and unlike Netscape, aren't pigs with it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 12:03:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06318 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from borg.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06305 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (user-37kb9d3.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.165.163]) by borg.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22466; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970416190304.00923e8c@mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:03:04 -0400 To: jbryant@tfs.net From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:14 PM 4/15/97 -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: >5). university library sales... get new compugeeks running it... our >universities are not exectly teaching operatings systems like they used >to to today's "Clueless" HS grads... Hear hear! Even better: give the CDs away. Red Hat came out with 4.0, then 4.1 in short order. They then had the 4.0 CDs laying around doing nothing. The solution? Well, they donated the 4.0 stock to NCSU's Comp Sci department. This was a month ago. The CDs are gone now. I was hoping to see if something like this could be arranged in the Fall, say 3-4 weeks into the semester. Give everyone time to move in, then make FreeBSD CDs available cheap. Might get a few converts. Then again, to make that worthwhile you have to support "crap" hardware. IDE CD-ROMS, Packard Bell, Gateway 2000, etc. Something to think about. -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci. - House of Retrocomputing XCOMM mailto:kpneal@pobox.com - http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ XCOMM kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates: XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 12:04:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06574 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05165 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem20.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.50]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12447; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:53:17 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33553AE7.23FD@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:47:35 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Nugent CC: Warner Losh , Giles Lean , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> <19970416125329.34879@usn.blaze.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Nugent wrote: > > On Sat Apr 12 13:08:52 EST 1997, Warner Losh writes: > > In message <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> Giles Lean writes: > > [ use smrsh ] ...[linking procmail] > And, yes, it definitely must be there, regardless of what was claimed > earlier in this thread. > No, it shouldn't. Procmail is a local mailer .. a replacement for "mail", since smrsh shouldn't go under the local part of the sendmail.cf, it should only affect programs that the external mailer should invoke; those that are in user's .forward file. Including other programs onder the sm.bin dir can be a security hazard. I can be wrong on this one (I don't use procmail), but I sincerely doubt it because no one links mail under sm.bin. A patch for this would only affect our procmail port, anyway. I also insist that changing the default user can bring further security benefits. I'd have to verify the exact syntax (I'm not in UNIX right now), but under sendmail.cf there is somewhere a u## (where ## usually stands for root's user). The user here is by default root, because it's the only user all unix system have for sure. As pointed out in a CERT advisory, this user doesn't have to be root, it shouldn't have privileges and doesn't even require a shell. Changing this user controlled the security problem associated with sendmail 8.8.2 (if I'm not wrong). This changes are easily doable for new releases: I consider this issue very important, and if further doubts persist, they should be discussed in the security list. Pedro. > Regards, > > David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia > Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet > davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 12:17:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10877 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10820 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA27772; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:54:34 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704161854.LAA27772@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: First place. To: jjwolf@bleeding.com (Justin Wolf) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:54:34 -0700 (MST) Cc: cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com, falco@vex.net, rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org, deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com In-Reply-To: <01BC49F6.CCE56760@crimson> from "Justin Wolf" at Apr 15, 97 11:43:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You actually think that DES is too weak when it takes all the hackers > in the known unix world to stage an attempt which has been so far > unsuccessful? Hmm... different point of view I guess. > > -Justin Wolf (jjwolf@bleeding.com) Depends on whether you can take advantage of symmetry to reduce the size of the data set, burn the results onto CDROM's indexed by post encrypted intelligence data, and load them into a changer in wait for the data you want to crack. If you could, you'd have the holy secret decoder ring for DES. Does anyone know if the RSA Challenge is using symmetry around the roots of squares (applying the recently published hyperbolic factoring technique), or if they are just brute-forcing it? Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 12:23:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA13514 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.80.6.147]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA13454 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from well.com (spidaman@well.com [206.15.64.10]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA11952; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:23:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Kallen To: hackers@freebsd.org, samba@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au cc: comp-unix-bsd-freebsd-announce@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-Reply-To: <5j15f4$mmg@hoax.cse.tek.com> Message-ID: References: <5j15f4$mmg@hoax.cse.tek.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'd like to use the smbfs and smbmount stuff that the Linux using Samba afficiandoes have worked out on FreeBSD (2.2.1) -- is anybody working on this? There's also Linux support for SGI's efs that I'd be very happy to use under FreeBSD were it available -- anybody working on _that_? If I had the skills to port stuff like that I'd work on it but it's outta my scope... thanks On 15 Apr 1997, Jason Scheck wrote: > Linux has a file system driver that I would very much like to use on my > home FreeBSD server (a Macintosh HFS driver). Assuming some driver > aptitude, what is the feasibility of converting this driver to run under > FreeBSD? Are the models totally incompatible? > > The DOS filesystem driver has been broken for long enough that it seems > that it might be difficult. However, it might not have been converted due > to filesystem issues. I do know that some version of the ext2fs runs > under both. > > Any advice will be appreciated. > > Jason Scheck > jasons@netcom.com > > The next interface will not be another desktop metaphor.... Ian Kallen .... http://www.well.com/user/spidaman/ ....the revolution will not be televised. ===== TO RECEIVE MY PGP KEY, SEND MAIL TO spidey-pgp-info@well.com ======= From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 12:53:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19697 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thermohaline.csc.ncsu.edu (thermohaline.csc.ncsu.edu [152.1.57.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA19651 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by thermohaline.csc.ncsu.edu (5.65/Eos/C-U-09Sep93) id AA10880; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:52:20 -0400 Message-Id: <9704161952.AA10880@thermohaline.csc.ncsu.edu> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever...] To: kpneal@pobox.com (Kevin P. Neal) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970416190304.00923e8c@mindspring.com> from "Kevin P. Neal" at Apr 16, 97 03:03:04 pm Reply-To: nsj@ncsu.edu From: nsj@ncsu.edu (Nate Johnson) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24/POP] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ background about Red Hat's troubles with their 4.0 distribution deleted] %The solution? Well, they donated the 4.0 stock to NCSU's Comp Sci department. % %This was a month ago. The CDs are gone now. ...and now a group of computer science students have a double CD with a broken distribution of a normally, pretty good OS, including numerous, widely known and easily exploitable security holes, and other various bugs, some worse than others. Was there any documentation handed out with these CD's describing these holes? Nope, just a pointer in the manual (that won't be read, BTW) to the web page. (Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but think about the type of people to whom the offer was made available.) I think the idea of handing out CD's (or making them more affordable, or something similar) is fantastic; however, let's not just hand out CD's with broken software on it. Your point about the hardware your average freshman brings on campus with him/her in the fall is much more valid, though... *shudder* Cheers, nsj -- Nate Johnson / nsj@ncsu.edu / nsj@catt.ncsu.edu / nsj@FreeBSD.org Head Systems Administrator, Computer and Technologies Theme Program North Carolina State University, Raleigh, North Carolina From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:04:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22070 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22035 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14023 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:51:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704161951.PAA14023@hda.hda.com> Subject: struct timespec is in the wrong place To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:51:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Struct timespec is added to time.h in posix.4. We've already got it in sys/time.h. By rights it should appear in time.h and only if _POSIX_VERSION is > 199309 and either _POSIX_C_SOURCE is undefined or > 199309. I'm thinking of adding sys/timespec.h and including that in both sys/time.h and time.h, properly ifdef'd in time.h. Comments? -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:05:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22278 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helmholtz.salk.edu (helmholtz.salk.edu [198.202.70.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22259; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pauling.salk.edu (pauling [198.202.70.108]) by helmholtz.salk.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01213; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:05:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Bartol To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Trouble with make release Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I've searched through the FreeBSD mail archives and FAQ but found no reference to my question: How do you do a "make release" in /usr/src/release. I'm running -current and would like make my own snapshot with make release. I've looked at the Makefile in /usr/src/release and set the BUILDNAME and CHROOTDIR variables there. I then do a make release which proceeds just fine until it hits the cvs command at which point it gorks as follows: ===> lkm/wcd install -c -o bin -g bin -m 555 wcd_mod.o /usr/local/src/freebsd-3.0-CNL/lkm cd /usr/local/src/freebsd-3.0-CNL/usr && rm -rf src && cvs -d co -P src cvs: invalid option -- P Apparently the CVSROOT environment variable is never set so there is just a blank after "cvs -d" instead of an absolute path name. Does anyone have any clues as to how I to fix this? Thanks much, Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:11:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24395 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silver.sms.fi (silver.sms.fi [194.111.122.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23627; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pete@localhost) by silver.sms.fi (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA00994; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:08:53 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:08:53 +0300 (EEST) Message-Id: <199704162008.XAA00994@silver.sms.fi> From: Petri Helenius To: Seppo Kallio Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Repeated UNIT ATTENTION, what is it, is this serious? In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Seppo Kallio writes: > > I have a Pentium P90 Intel Zappa, FreeBSD 2.1.5 NFS server. It has one AHA > 2940 + 3 Seagate disks (2+4+4G) and one AHA 2940 + HP Tape robot > > I am getting more and more this kind of error messages. First suspected > the HP dat tape causing them. (That is why I have it in it's own AHA2940). > We used to have this symptom appear every now and then until we decided that five disks don't live too well in a single bus (at least it did not work for us). Not wanting to troubleshoot further we divided the bus into two (replaced the 2940 with 3940) and all errors went away. Highly likely the problem was related to termination, though... Pete From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:21:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25398 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25366 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA07558 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:20:35 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04107; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:09:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970416220955.BA54744@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:09:55 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. References: <1.5.4.32.19970416123607.006e0f38@cybercom.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970416123607.006e0f38@cybercom.net>; from The Classiest Man Alive on Apr 16, 1997 08:36:07 -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > Not to fan the flames, but has anyone ever considered converting > Slackware's installation program to FreeBSD. Slackware is also a Walnut Creek baby... i think Jordan has been in contact with the author of Slackware for very long. But then again, Jordan has been threatening to rewrite sysinstall for *dig dig* /* * The new sysinstall program. * * This is probably the last attempt in the `sysinstall' line, the next * generation being slated to essentially a complete rewrite. * * $Id: sysinstall.h,v 1.1 1995/04/27 12:50:34 jkh Exp $ ...almost exactly two years now. :-)) I simply don't trust him that it will ever happen. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:21:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25429 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA25396 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA07563 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:21:22 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04128; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:14:10 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970416221410.DA50904@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:14:10 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to extract function prototypes from source code ? References: <9704160922.AA06376@phi.Sinica.EDU.tw> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <9704160922.AA06376@phi.Sinica.EDU.tw>; from Yen-Wei Liu on Apr 16, 1997 17:22:07 +0800 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Yen-Wei Liu wrote: > I do remember there is a switch in GCC that can extract function > prototypes (declarations) from source code to a seperate file so > it's easier to build up header files, but however I cannot find it > anymore. protoize(1) is the tool that uses this switch: j@uriah 76% locate protoize.c /usr/src/contrib/gcc/protoize.c /usr/src/contrib/gcc/unprotoize.c ...so you only gotta build it. Btw., ``-aux-info'' is the switch to gcc (but i didn't remember either, i just ran strings(1) on protoize :). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:40:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29877 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost-hq.freegate.net ([205.178.36.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA29855 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:40:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Josef Grosch Received: (qmail 20143 invoked by alias); 16 Apr 1997 20:40:22 -0000 Received: from h235.free-gate.com (HELO jgrosch.hq.freegate.net) (205.178.20.235) by h254.free-gate.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1997 20:40:22 -0000 Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by jgrosch.hq.freegate.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA01713; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704162040.NAA01713@jgrosch.hq.freegate.net> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704160329.VAA04560@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Apr 15, 97 09:29:50 pm" To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jgrosch@FreeGate.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams said: >> You can complain that the discussion is not resolving "the real issue", >> but the complaints do no good without some action to put in their stead; >> what implementable *process* do you propose? > >Pot, kettle, black. > > >Nate > > int ThePot() { TheKettle(BLACK); } -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.1 jgrosch@FreeGate.net | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:50:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02717 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02709 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA07846 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:50:39 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04084; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:04:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970416220449.IN13949@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:04:49 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> <19970416125329.34879@usn.blaze.net.au> <33553AE7.23FD@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <33553AE7.23FD@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro Giffuni on Apr 16, 1997 13:47:35 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Pedro Giffuni wrote: > I also insist that changing the default user can bring further security > benefits. # default UID (can be username or userid:groupid) O DefaultUser=1:1 That's daemon:daemon, this is a fairly low privileged user. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:50:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02794 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02773 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA07849 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:50:43 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04150; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:20:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970416222031.SE18785@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:20:31 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mail exploders... References: <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>; from Luigi Rizzo on Apr 16, 1997 14:22:46 +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > So I am wondering how are the mail exploders chosen for a given site, > and if there is a possibility for a subscriber to select one which is > closer (networkwise) and/or better connected to his site. They are chosen by top-level domains using /etc/mailertable on freefall. If you've got a suggestion for a better suited exploder for .it (including the permission of the owner), go ahead. If you you think it's generally a poor idea to offload .it to the German exploder, let us know. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:51:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA03033 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02991 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA07854 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:51:19 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04228; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:46:50 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970416224649.GY47914@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:46:49 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? References: <5j15f4$mmg@hoax.cse.tek.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Ian Kallen on Apr 16, 1997 12:23:16 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Ian Kallen wrote: > There's also Linux support for SGI's efs that I'd be very happy to > use under FreeBSD were it available -- anybody working on _that_? Back in the days when i have been working with IRIX machines, i had to find out the hard way that efs was the most fragile filesystem i've ever seen on earth. It was even more fragile than the old S51K filesystem of SVR3.x, and this means a lot! That's not to flame some{one,thing}, but just as a note that i wouldn't spend a second in any code for this filesystem. If you're serious about filesystem work, you might think about AIX's JFS. :-) That's still among the best filesystems i've seen so far. There's a German un-word these days, ``unkaputtbar''. Well, since you Americans have lent the German `kaputt', i guess you figure out what this means... (the German suffix `-bar' is about the same as the English suffix `-able'). JFS is just this, ``unkaputtbar''. You turn the machine off full-steam, turn it on again, and it happily tells you ``filesystem is clean, no check needed''. ;) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:54:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04074 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03816 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem13.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.43]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA12545; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:51:02 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33555673.1339@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:45:22 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin P. Neal" CC: Darren Reed , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) References: <1.5.4.32.19970416180629.008e56c8@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kevin P. Neal wrote: > > At 11:30 PM 4/15/97 +1000, Darren Reed wrote: > >In some mail from David S. Miller, sie said: > >> > >> Thats funny, we don't have any "Linux vs. FreeBSD" web pages in the > >> Linux world, there are a few "Linux vs. NT" ones which are, from a > >> free software perspective, much more relevant if you are truly > >> interesting in seeing free software and Unix succeed. I guess it is > >> just akin to a food chain in the free Unix world. > > > >I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > >that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > >I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > >with real budgets. > > *waves hand* Hey there! Hi! [Ohhh, uses Apache] > > Now if I could just get them to accept FreeBSD... > I don't understand your problem: Apache is part of the ports collection and the package runs "plug'n play" ! Pedro. -- > XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci. - House of Retrocomputing > XCOMM mailto:kpneal@pobox.com - http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ > XCOMM kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates: > XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 13:58:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05864 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pahtoh.cwu.edu (root@pahtoh.cwu.edu [198.104.65.27]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05846 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opus.cts.cwu.edu (skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu [198.104.92.71]) by pahtoh.cwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06401; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (skynyrd@localhost) by opus.cts.cwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA16622; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Timmons To: Tom Bartol cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Trouble with make release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Tom, Actually you'll never want to mail both -hackers and -current at the same time. This question probably is a -hackers one since it is a generic issue that applies to many releases of FreeBSD. You'll need a copy of the CVS repository on your machine pointed at by CVSROOT in order to make release (as well as the vn pseudo-device in your kernel.) We visited this issue a couple of months ago on -hackers, so you might want to use the http://www.freebsd.org/search.html interface to find that discussion. Hope this helps, -Chris On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Tom Bartol wrote: > > Hi, > > I've searched through the FreeBSD mail archives and FAQ but found no > reference to my question: > > How do you do a "make release" in /usr/src/release. [...] From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:06:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07148 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07137 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA16357 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:04:42 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA24573 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:04:13 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id WAA17924; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:52:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970416225211.06772@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:52:11 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mail exploders... References: <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67 In-Reply-To: <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>; from Luigi Rizzo on Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 02:22:46PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3195 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Luigi Rizzo: > So I am wondering how are the mail exploders chosen for a given site, > and if there is a possibility for a subscriber to select one which is > closer (networkwise) and/or better connected to his site. They're not really exploders but just sites that gets all domain for a given TLD. For example, mail-relay.fr.freebsd.org gets all mail for .fr (and two or three others I know are in France) through a mailertable entry on freefall. That way, there is nothing to set up on the exploders themselves. Real exploders would take a more complicated system with local majordomos and you would subscribe to the "regional" hubs instead of freefall. It could be done but it was found at the time that the current system worked well enough. I suppose mail-relay.fr.freebsd.org could take all .it traffic if needs be. Please verify with traceroute and tell root@freefall.freebsd.org to change the entry for .it (or add it) if you think it worthwhile. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #41: Sun Mar 23 23:01:22 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:06:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07181 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07098 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA16353 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:04:39 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id XAA24571 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:04:07 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id WAA17889; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:43:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970416224354.59658@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:43:54 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problems with afterstep and swap References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67 In-Reply-To: ; from Kyle Mestery on Tue, Apr 15, 1997 at 07:54:06PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3195 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Kyle Mestery: > 11. I am also running the afterstep window manager. I am using This is your problem. I've not tried 1.0pre5/6 but with 1.0pre2, I was slowly eating all my memory/swap... (64 MB RAM + 192 swap !!). Now that I've switched to fvwm2.0.45, all is fine and I have 30% swap on average (with more windows !). Afterstep is very nice but it is much too slow and eating too much memory. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #41: Sun Mar 23 23:01:22 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:08:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07514 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lariat.lariat.org ([129.72.251.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07438; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solo.lariat.org ([129.72.251.10]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA05793; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:07:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970416150727.006ccadc@lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@lariat.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:07:36 -0600 To: pete@sms.fi, kallio@cc.jyu.fi From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Repeated UNIT ATTENTION, what is it, is this serious? Cc: hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In SCSI-speak, a "unit attention" condition means that a device was reset, was powered up, or had a serious error. The host is notified of the condition not when it occurs but only when it tries to send a command to the device -- which might be quite some time later. The command is rejected, but usually succeeds when it's retried. This is a hack that was added to SCSI because there was no easy way for a peripheral to notify the host right away when an error occurred. The problem could be anything from a parity error to overlapping SCSI IDs to bad termination to soft errors on the disk or tape. --Brett From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:09:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07602 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost-hq.freegate.net ([205.178.36.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07522 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:08:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Josef Grosch Received: (qmail 20557 invoked by alias); 16 Apr 1997 21:08:30 -0000 Received: from h235.free-gate.com (HELO jgrosch.hq.freegate.net) (205.178.20.235) by h254.free-gate.com with SMTP; 16 Apr 1997 21:08:30 -0000 Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by jgrosch.hq.freegate.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA01827; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704162108.OAA01827@jgrosch.hq.freegate.net> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever...] In-Reply-To: <9704161952.AA10880@thermohaline.csc.ncsu.edu> from Nate Johnson at "Apr 16, 97 03:52:19 pm" To: nsj@ncsu.edu Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: kpneal@pobox.com, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: jgrosch@FreeGate.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Johnson said: >[ background about Red Hat's troubles with their 4.0 distribution deleted] > >%The solution? Well, they donated the 4.0 stock to NCSU's Comp Sci department. >% >%This was a month ago. The CDs are gone now. > >...and now a group of computer science students have a double CD with a broken >distribution of a normally, pretty good OS, including numerous, widely known >and easily exploitable security holes, and other various bugs, some worse than >others. Was there any documentation handed out with these CD's describing >these holes? Nope, just a pointer in the manual (that won't be read, BTW) to >the web page. > >(Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but think about the type of people >to whom the offer was made available.) > >I think the idea of handing out CD's (or making them more affordable, or >something similar) is fantastic; however, let's not just hand out CD's with >broken software on it. > >Your point about the hardware your average freshman brings on campus with >him/her in the fall is much more valid, though... *shudder* > Yes, lets not hand out broken software but handing out copies of FreeBSD at universitys is a Good Thing(tm). UNIX owes, in part, its success to the fact that in the early day it was available for the asking. If I remember the license cost was $1,000. There are a number of universitys that are using FreeBSD to teach OS internal courses. The university of Virginia at Blacksburg is one, I think. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.1 jgrosch@FreeGate.net | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:10:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA08229 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA08202; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA08090; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:10:31 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA04493; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:09:12 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970416230912.AQ56501@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:09:12 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Cc: bartol@salk.edu (Tom Bartol) Subject: Re: Trouble with make release References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Tom Bartol on Apr 16, 1997 13:05:03 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Tom Bartol wrote: > Apparently the CVSROOT environment variable is never set so there is just > a blank after "cvs -d" instead of an absolute path name. Does anyone have > any clues as to how I to fix this? Yes, by mirroring a CVS tree, and setting this variable. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:19:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA10388 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10351 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (localhost.lan.awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA23574; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:18:17 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199704162118.WAA23574@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "didier@omnix.fr.org" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ppp / tcp problem with October 14th FreeBSD 2.2 SNAPSHOT In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:28:20 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:18:17 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi, > > I'm trying to link two networks with user ppp / isdn line. > > I've two networks > > network A 192.168.0 (my client) > network B 192.168.2 (my network) > > I established a ppp link trough 192.168.3.1 (my side) and 192.168.3.2 > (the client side) > > On the client side, I'm using "ppp -auto mysite" and "ppp -direct" on > my side and ppp. > > when the client wants to establish a connection, ppp works fine. > > I'm able to use ping -f on both sides. > It seems that all udp clients works fine. > > but when I want to use a tcp connection (for example telnet) > > It takes more than one minute to get an answer. > > In fact it seems that each time each time an application has to send a lot > of data the tcp connection hangs. > > even with the tcp extension disabled. > > I can reproduce the problem with tcpblast. it hangs each time. > > however ping even with a large packet always works fine. > (7000 packet with 0% packet lost) > > I checked with tcpdump -i tun0 > > without any other connection to the client side. It took more than > one minute for a telnet connection to acces the client side. > without any packet transmited to the tun0 interface. > > The client side is running FreeBSD 2.1.5-RELEASE. > > > Do you have any clue ? > > In the mean time, I'm downloading the last release of FreeBSD > with user ppp on a diallup Internet access (without any problem) In my experience, *all* delay problems I've seen have been due to routing and DNS mis-configurations. Can you DNS look up both machines forwards and backwards from both machines ? Also, your assigned IP number for your clients side seems not to match his network. Also, you may want to try the null-modem example in ppp.conf.sample (it didn't make 2.2.1, but is in the 2.2 and 3.0 branches). This setup works 100% for me. > Thanks for your help > > -- > Didier Derny > didier@omniset.com > > -- Brian , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:34:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12997 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helmholtz.salk.edu (helmholtz.salk.edu [198.202.70.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12992 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pauling.salk.edu (pauling [198.202.70.108]) by helmholtz.salk.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA03118; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:32:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Bartol To: Chris Timmons cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Trouble with make release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Thanks for the quick response. As I said, I did search the archives and found nothing enlightening -- just useless snippets of e-mail conversations that did not answer my questions. Hence my e-mail to -hackers at this time. man cvs did not answer my questions either. I wasn't sure which list to hit since (just maybe) I might have found a bug in make release which might have been of interest to -current. But in any case I'll certainly restrict my e-mails to one or the other in the future. I do have a complete /usr/src tree on my machine since I am running -current which I did a successful make world on just yesterday. Are /usr/src and /usr/obj what you mean by a CVS repository? If so do I set CVSROOT to /usr/src or /usr/obj or /usr or what? If these are not a CVS repository then how do I proceed? How do I get my hands on a CVS repository? My goal is make my own installable snapshot of -current as of today (more or less). As per the instructions in /usr/src/release/Makefile I already have the vn pseudo-device in my kernel. Thanks for any help you're willing to give, Tom On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Chris Timmons wrote: > > > Hi Tom, > > Actually you'll never want to mail both -hackers and -current at the same > time. This question probably is a -hackers one since it is a generic > issue that applies to many releases of FreeBSD. > > You'll need a copy of the CVS repository on your machine pointed at by > CVSROOT in order to make release (as well as the vn pseudo-device in your > kernel.) > > We visited this issue a couple of months ago on -hackers, so you might > want to use the http://www.freebsd.org/search.html interface to find that > discussion. > > Hope this helps, > -Chris From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:45:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14277 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14247 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA28059; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:21:16 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704162121.OAA28059@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: First place. To: mark@quickweb.com (Mark Mayo) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:21:16 -0700 (MST) Cc: jjwolf@bleeding.com, drew@sml.co.jp, cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com, falco@vex.net, rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org, deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com In-Reply-To: <19970416122940.60713@vinyl.quickweb.com> from "Mark Mayo" at Apr 16, 97 12:29:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And why should I have to pay for a guy to drive up to my company in a large, > fossil fuel burning van just to send confdential data? Do you think it would > be hard to hi-jack that guy in the van? Of course not... I want to be able > to have private data transfer, to anyone I wish to communicte with.. Because a van full of DAT tapes at 55MPH has a hell of a lot higher bandwidth (at the cost of transmission latency) than multiple gigabit networks? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:51:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14883 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.80.6.147]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14877 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from well.com (spidaman@well.com [206.15.64.10]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA10150 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:50:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Kallen To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-Reply-To: <19970416224649.GY47914@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Come to think of it, I've migrated all of our IRIX filesystems to XFS which is journaled like JFS. A FreeBSD XFS driver would certainly put a smile on my face. I just mentioned EFS 'case I knew it existed amongst the Linux folks. XFS has proved to be very stable under heavy load though the procession of patches has made me wonder about how well they QA it. I wish xfsdump had the v switch that Solaris' ufsdump has for verifying a dump's integrity. Er, I'm drifting. Anyway, if you're interested in developing an XFS driver for FreeBSD you have my moral support anyway! On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > As Ian Kallen wrote: > > > There's also Linux support for SGI's efs that I'd be very happy to > > use under FreeBSD were it available -- anybody working on _that_? > > Back in the days when i have been working with IRIX machines, i had to > find out the hard way that efs was the most fragile filesystem i've > ever seen on earth. It was even more fragile than the old S51K > filesystem of SVR3.x, and this means a lot! > > That's not to flame some{one,thing}, but just as a note that i > wouldn't spend a second in any code for this filesystem. If you're > serious about filesystem work, you might think about AIX's JFS. :-) > That's still among the best filesystems i've seen so far. There's a > German un-word these days, ``unkaputtbar''. Well, since you Americans > have lent the German `kaputt', i guess you figure out what this > means... (the German suffix `-bar' is about the same as the English > suffix `-able'). JFS is just this, ``unkaputtbar''. You turn the > machine off full-steam, turn it on again, and it happily tells you > ``filesystem is clean, no check needed''. ;) > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) > > The next interface will not be another desktop metaphor.... Ian Kallen .... http://www.well.com/user/spidaman/ ....the revolution will not be televised. ===== TO RECEIVE MY PGP KEY, SEND MAIL TO spidey-pgp-info@well.com ======= From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 14:57:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16004 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from perki0.connect.com.au (perki0.connect.com.au [192.189.54.85]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15935 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:57:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nemeton.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by perki0.connect.com.au with UUCP id HAA29901 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:51:00 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost.nemeton.com.au (localhost.nemeton.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by nemeton.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA01597; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:34:30 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199704162134.HAA01597@nemeton.com.au> To: Pedro Giffuni cc: David Nugent , Warner Losh , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... In-reply-to: <33553AE7.23FD@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:34:30 +1000 From: Giles Lean Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:47:35 -0700 Pedro Giffuni wrote: > No, it shouldn't. Procmail is a local mailer .. a replacement for > "mail", since smrsh shouldn't go under the local part of the > sendmail.cf, it should only affect programs that the external mailer > should invoke; Pedro, Many more people call procmail from .forward than have it as their local mail delivery program so it must be accessible to smrsh. David's suggestion that the procmail port install to co-operate with smrsh is a good one, following the principle of least astonishment. Giles From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 15:03:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17251 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17233 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA29753; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33554C44.41C67EA6@whistle.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:01:40 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ian Kallen CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, samba@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au, comp-unix-bsd-freebsd-announce@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? References: <5j15f4$mmg@hoax.cse.tek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ian Kallen wrote: > > I'd like to use the smbfs and smbmount stuff that the Linux using Samba > afficiandoes have worked out on FreeBSD (2.2.1) -- is anybody working on > this? There's also Linux support for SGI's efs that I'd be very happy to > use under FreeBSD were it available -- anybody working on _that_? If I > had the skills to port stuff like that I'd work on it but it's outta my > scope... > Volker, who wrote the smbfs just left here.. I think there is a chance that we may get a port out of him, but not right away.. he didn't seem to be against the idea. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 15:12:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18511 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [199.184.181.250]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18506 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.pcs. [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA20884; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:28:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id RAA00911; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:13:52 -0500 Message-ID: <19970416171351.05581@right.PCS> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:13:52 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mail exploders... References: <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <19970416222031.SE18785@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <19970416222031.SE18785@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Apr 04, 1997 at 10:20:31PM +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 04, 1997 at 10:20:31PM +0200, J Wunsch wrote: > As Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > So I am wondering how are the mail exploders chosen for a given site, > > and if there is a possibility for a subscriber to select one which is > > closer (networkwise) and/or better connected to his site. > > They are chosen by top-level domains using /etc/mailertable on > freefall. If you've got a suggestion for a better suited exploder for > .it (including the permission of the owner), go ahead. If you you > think it's generally a poor idea to offload .it to the German > exploder, let us know. On a related note, it seems like freefall has a long mail queue time; it takes anywhere from 40 minutes to over an hour before the message actually goes out. Here's a couple of headers: Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by sm yrno.sol.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA06537; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:55:55 -05 00 (CDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04442; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by ns3.harborcom.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA08862; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA03245; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Is this normal, or can it be sped up? -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 15:19:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19709 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19652 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09187; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:15:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:15:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704162215.QAA09187@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704161804.LAA27657@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704160329.VAA04560@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704161804.LAA27657@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > what implementable *process* do you propose? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > Pot, kettle, black. > If this is in reference to something else, name it, and I will > propose a process for it. It will probably be a reiteration of ^^^^^^^^^ Note the difference. Very few of your 'processes' are implementable or would solve the problems you propose to solve. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 15:48:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA03892 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrimp.dataplex.net (shrimp.dataplex.net [208.2.87.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03831 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.2.87.4] (cod.dataplex.net [208.2.87.4]) by shrimp.dataplex.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25982; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:48:09 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: rkw@shrimp.dataplex.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970416225211.06772@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>; from Luigi Rizzo on Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 02:22:46PM +0200 <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:43:30 -0500 To: Ollivier Robert From: Richard Wackerbarth Subject: Re: Mail exploders... Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >According to Luigi Rizzo: >> So I am wondering how are the mail exploders chosen >They're not really exploders but just sites that gets all domain for a >given TLD. So are you saying that if there are 100 subscribers in the .fr domain, 100 copies of each message are sent from California to France and from there directed to the individual recipients? If that is the case, it might be more efficient to batch each mailing list and transmit a list of subscribers along with one copy of the batch. That would still preserve the "zero storage" aspect of the hub in France. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 16:38:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28200 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA28149 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA07455; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:38:21 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:38:20 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Richard Wackerbarth cc: Ollivier Robert , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mail exploders... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Richard Wackerbarth wrote: > >According to Luigi Rizzo: > >> So I am wondering how are the mail exploders chosen > > >They're not really exploders but just sites that gets all domain for a > >given TLD. > > So are you saying that if there are 100 subscribers in the .fr domain, > 100 copies of each message are sent from California to France and from > there directed to the individual recipients? No, a single message is sent from California to France, but there are 100 recipients in the SMTP 'RCPT TO: <....>' section. Having a subscription list in France would be useful in that the recipient list would not need to be transmitted for each message, but unless majordomo grows some smarts for this, I don't see it happening. Actually, it probably would not be too hard to majordomo to simply forward subscribe/unsubscribe messages to a peer determined by the TLD of the sender. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 16:39:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA28475 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA28374 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA28363; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:16:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704162316.QAA28363@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? To: spidaman@well.com (Ian Kallen) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:16:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Ian Kallen" at Apr 16, 97 02:50:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Come to think of it, I've migrated all of our IRIX filesystems to XFS > which is journaled like JFS. A FreeBSD XFS driver would certainly put a > smile on my face. I just mentioned EFS 'case I knew it existed amongst > the Linux folks. XFS has proved to be very stable under heavy load though > the procession of patches has made me wonder about how well they QA it. > I wish xfsdump had the v switch that Solaris' ufsdump has for verifying > a dump's integrity. Er, I'm drifting. Anyway, if you're interested in > developing an XFS driver for FreeBSD you have my moral support anyway! The Linux VFS interface is not reflexive; it's not cut at the right place for a journalled FS. FreeBSD's is much better, but it's still not there either... I've discussed this in detail with the guy who wrote the read-only NTFS driver for Linux. You need to be able to treat the VFS interface as if it were a transaction interface to do things like event rollback. It helps if the internal treatment is architected as event/responder, too. The same thing would help for Soft Updates, which is basically a transaction order enforcement mechanism, with the dependency graph statically computed (rendering it FFS-specific). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 17:17:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA11865 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrimp.dataplex.net (shrimp.dataplex.net [208.2.87.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11822 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.2.87.4] (cod.dataplex.net [208.2.87.4]) by shrimp.dataplex.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA11239; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:16:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: rkw@shrimp.dataplex.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:14:48 -0500 To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" From: Richard Wackerbarth Subject: Re: Mail exploders... Cc: Ollivier Robert , hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 6:38 PM -0500 4/16/97, Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: >unless majordomo grows some smarts for this, I don't see it happening. > >Actually, it probably would not be too hard to majordomo to simply >forward subscribe/unsubscribe messages to a peer determined by the TLD of >the sender. That should not be too hard to do it you create a dummy "majordomo" which is just a router for messages and put the real (local) majordomo at another address. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 17:19:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA12764 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA12716 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA28419; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:57:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704162357.QAA28419@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:57:18 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704162215.QAA09187@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 16, 97 04:15:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I supposed this semantic attack serves me right for attempting to be terse in my reponse in consideration of past requests by you, Jordan, et. al.. If this is the use to which you choose to put my attempted conformance to those requests... C'este la guerre. > > > > what implementable *process* do you propose? > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > > > Pot, kettle, black. > > > If this is in reference to something else, name it, and I will > > propose a process for it. It will probably be a reiteration of > ^^^^^^^^^ > > Note the difference. Very few of your 'processes' are implementable I might agree, with the caveat that it's not because of technical issues that the processes are unimplementable, and the claim that technical issues are the only issues which matter and everything else is horse puckey of the sort engaged in by pointy-haired bosses. Sidebar: This is called "AI" or "Artificial Importance", and has to do with people being "in the loop" for the gratification of being "in the loop" rather than out of technical necessity. It's a form of narcissism, and should not be tolerated, much less encouraged, and never *ever* rewarded. > or would solve the problems you propose to solve. That remains to be seen. In general, there is no question that they would solve the problems they propose to solve. The disagreement has been on whether or not what I think is a problem is acknowledged by others to actually be a problem. The FS stuff is a prime example: I want the changes so that I can do substantive work down there, and the people who aren't interested in working down there can't see why the way it is presents a barrier to me, since it doesn't present a barrier to them. Of course, they aren't working down there, so their opinions are technically suspect. It should be obvious to even a novice softwre engineer that using a functional interface to encapsulate the process of obtaining and freeing the path buffers would enable keeping a pool of path buffers that can be reused, avoiding the allocation/deallocation which has to occur on each and every path related system call. Can you say "useful performance improvement"? I knew you could. The changes should go in to enable that, even if you didn't give a shit about FS engineering issues, or the other uses to which I would put the reflexive properties of the changed interface. I find it repugnant that I have to state the blatantly obvious to justify organizational changes to code that you personally couldn't give a rats ass about, other than to ensure its continued function. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 17:24:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14284 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athena.veritas.com (athena.veritas.com [192.203.46.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA14267 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from megami.veritas.com by athena.veritas.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.0 #9) id m0wHezO-000iVCC; Wed, 16 Apr 97 17:23 PDT Received: from sigma by megami.veritas.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.0 #7) id m0wHezO-000iX3C; Wed, 16 Apr 97 17:23 PDT Message-Id: From: Aaron Smith To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:16:32 PDT." <199704162316.QAA28363@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:23:48 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk After reading this, Terry, I can only conclude that you have a propensity for pretending knowlede of things you incompletely understand. Your standard technique appears to be: - make broad pronouncments - bring up graph theory Writing a journaling filesystem does not require any of the changes you mention. You don't know what you're talking about. This might be forgivable if your tone was speculative, but you act like you are laying down fact, when you could not be more wrong about what is required for a journalling filesystem. VERITAS VxFS (a journalled filesystem) runs on many, many different UNIX variants and none have had to modify the VFS layer or its interface. I would recommend easing up on your need to sound authoritative on topics you have not mastered. -- Aaron Smith aaron@veritas.com unless explicitly stated, i do not speak for my employer. support free speech. On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:16:32 PDT, Terry Lambert writes: [discussion of SGI xfs, some mentions of JFS and NTFS] >The Linux VFS interface is not reflexive; it's not cut at the right >place for a journalled FS. FreeBSD's is much better, but it's still >not there either... I've discussed this in detail with the guy who >wrote the read-only NTFS driver for Linux. You need to be able to >treat the VFS interface as if it were a transaction interface to do >things like event rollback. It helps if the internal treatment is >architected as event/responder, too. The same thing would help for >Soft Updates, which is basically a transaction order enforcement >mechanism, with the dependency graph statically computed (rendering >it FFS-specific). From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 17:25:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14516 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA14505 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.18]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <24350(4)>; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:09:45 PDT Received: from gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com [13.231.133.90]) by www.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA08893; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/client-1.3) id AA01250; Wed, 16 Apr 97 18:07:33 EDT Message-Id: <9704162207.AA01250@gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: ywliu@phi.sinica.edu.tw (Yen-Wei Liu) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: How to extract function prototypes from source code ? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:22:07 PDT." <9704160922.AA06376@phi.Sinica.EDU.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:07:32 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi, > > This is not really directly related to FreeBSD programming, but... > > I do remember there is a switch in GCC that can extract function prototypes > (declarations) from source code to a seperate file so it's easier > to build up header files, but however I cannot find it anymore. Didn't > my memory serve me wrong ? How can I do this ? > > look at cproto...it often works well. -- marty leisner@sdsp.mc.xerox.com The Feynman problem solving Algorithm 1) Write down the problem 2) Think real hard 3) Write down the answer Murray Gel-mann in the NY Times From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 17:25:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14558 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14551 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA16621; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:25:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Snob Art Genre To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel config 'doconfig' (was: Re: Another Linux Religious war) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Brandon Gillespie wrote: > -e ed-script > Specifies that you want to run the specified ed editor script on > the configuration file before a new kernel is built. > > For FreeBSD I'd suggest the -c and -e option, and possibly -d (altho I > don't know how relevant to FreeBSD it is). Altho, I think -e should be > default on if you don't specify -cFILE. What does it mean for an option to be default on if it requires a filename? And why turn on this option by default? Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 17:28:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15080 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15017 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA10126; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:24:50 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:24:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704170024.SAA10126@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704162357.QAA28419@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704162215.QAA09187@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704162357.QAA28419@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > or would solve the problems you propose to solve. > > That remains to be seen. In general, there is no question that they > would solve the problems they propose to solve. Maybe in your mind, but in my mind it's not so obvious. Example: Your FS patches may fix some problems, but many of your 'proposed solutions' that you propose to people having problems with FreeBSD are found to be completely bogus tha, hence my lack of faith that your patches will fix many of the problems you claim they fix. > The disagreement has been on whether or not what I think is a problem > is acknowledged by others to actually be a problem. That too. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 17:53:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22783 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gdi.uoregon.edu (gdi.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22741 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by gdi.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA25839 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White X-Sender: dwhite@localhost Reply-To: Doug White To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Solution for 3COM 3C589D PCMCIA Ethernet card problem (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Did you see this? It came across questions. (I didn't note it in my digest for the day.) Doug White | University of Oregon Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 13:39 PDT From: Samuel Lam To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Solution for 3COM 3C589D PCMCIA Ethernet card problem For those with 3C589*D* cards and want to use the "ep" driver instead of PAO, I have found the problem. The EEPROM used inside the 3C589D seems to be slower than those used in the 3C589C and older cards, and the DELAY(1000) in read_eeprom_data() isn't long enough any more. Increasing the delay to 1000000 (brute force) works, and some lower values would likely work as well, but I didn't have time to do a binary search for the new boundary. A better fix would be to make read_eeprom_data() call f_is_eeprom_busy() after the DELAY(1000). ...Sam -- -- Scalable Network Systems Ltd. Network Failure Analysis Lab, a division of Scalable Network Systems Ltd. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 18:43:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA28685 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA28650 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem11.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.41]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA12779; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:29:04 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <335597AE.4294@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:23:26 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joerg Wunsch CC: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <199704120213.MAA10732@topaz.nemeton.com.au> <19970416125329.34879@usn.blaze.net.au> <33553AE7.23FD@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970416220449.IN13949@uriah.heep.sax.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch wrote: > > As Pedro Giffuni wrote: > > # default UID (can be username or userid:groupid) > O DefaultUser=1:1 > > That's daemon:daemon, this is a fairly low privileged user. > Ah...OK, that's the problem of also having an AIX mailer :). Pedro. > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 18:44:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA28830 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA28817 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA28654; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:22:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704170122.SAA28654@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? To: aaron@veritas.com (Aaron Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:22:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Smith" at Apr 16, 97 05:23:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > After reading this, Terry, I can only conclude that you have a propensity > for pretending knowlede of things you incompletely understand. Your > standard technique appears to be: > > - make broad pronouncments > - bring up graph theory > > Writing a journaling filesystem does not require any of the changes you > mention. You don't know what you're talking about. This might be forgivable > if your tone was speculative, but you act like you are laying down fact, > when you could not be more wrong about what is required for a journalling > filesystem. > > VERITAS VxFS (a journalled filesystem) runs on many, many different UNIX > variants and none have had to modify the VFS layer or its interface. > > I would recommend easing up on your need to sound authoritative on topics > you have not mastered. I was a systems engineer working for Novell/USG (the former USL) for a number of years before leaving them for my present job. Among other things, I worked on the UFS (maintenance), NWFS (lead engineer), NUCFS (assisting engineer), and VXFS (your) source code. I have also submitted a number of bug fixes (which were integrated remarkably fast) for the Linux FS code; I'm rather familiar with it as well, since my job for the first year I was here had to do with writing commercial Linux FS code in support of a dedicated file and print server product. UnixWare 1.0, which returned soft errors like timeouts to the block I/O interface consumer. VXFS would occassionally lose parts of the FS when the area being read was marked bad. The block I/O interface had to be modified in SVR4 to accomodate VXFS, which did not retry operations, so your statement is false for SVR4. > [discussion of SGI xfs, some mentions of JFS and NTFS] > > >The Linux VFS interface is not reflexive; it's not cut at the right > >place for a journalled FS. FreeBSD's is much better, but it's still > >not there either... I've discussed this in detail with the guy who > >wrote the read-only NTFS driver for Linux. You need to be able to > >treat the VFS interface as if it were a transaction interface to do > >things like event rollback. It helps if the internal treatment is > >architected as event/responder, too. The same thing would help for > >Soft Updates, which is basically a transaction order enforcement > >mechanism, with the dependency graph statically computed (rendering > >it FFS-specific). You will note that I did not say the changes were *required*. While you *can* pound any peg into any hole with a large enough hammer (in this case, enough extra code), it's not always the best way to solve the problem. If you want to implement an XFS or JFS on Linux (each of which is capable of rolling transactions forward during restart), you would be required to ensure the atomicity of operations which required reentering the VFS externally to the VFS encapsulation of operations. This is problematic, since you must internally roll these transactions in the mount code, unless you externalize them in fsck code, and that won't work for the root filesystem. It greatly complicates the code if the VOP calls themselves don't correspond to atomic operations on a 1:1 basis. You *could* do the code anyway. Veritas does it in SVR4.2, using an intent log to enable it to make the atomicity guarantees across operations which require multiple VOP calls to implement. This would be harder on Linux because of the 1:N mapping issues introduced by a non-reflexive VFS interface. Partial transactions can not be rolled forward, only back, if the intent log was written at the VOP layer, and you were unsure of the VOP which was to follow, or the data that was required. Any journalling system is really insufficient (by itself) for this task overall. Without direct access to the transaction interface, there is no guarantee that operations which are not atomic but which must be linked (for instance, a relational database with changes to a record file and the index file for that record file) will be treated as a single transaction. The partial transaction might be rolled forward in one file but not the other because they are not tagged as a unit. That's why we have abominations before God, like Tuxedo. So even if we solve this problem at the VFS level (like I want), it will remain in user space until there are VFS level VOP_BEGIN and VOP_END support, and a system call interface to get at them (luckily, I want this, too). I would claim that the VFS interface in Linux does not internally ensure the atomicity of the operations that result from VFS or VOP calls. Neither, for that matter, does FreeBSD, though FreeBSD's major offenses are all localized to its use of VOP_ABORTOP() due to the failure to properly integrate the NFS lease code. My namei patches reduce this number by five, and I have every intention of reducing this number to zero and removing VOP_ABORTOP as a public interface for everything but (potentially) the soft update code. The work done by the VOP_LOOKUP code (and the calling code which depends on its current behaviour) will have to change to do this. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 18:57:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA29376 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA29367 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA28704; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:33:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704170133.SAA28704@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:33:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704170024.SAA10126@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 16, 97 06:24:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Example: > > Your FS patches may fix some problems, but many of your 'proposed > solutions' that you propose to people having problems with FreeBSD are > found to be completely bogus tha, hence my lack of faith that your > patches will fix many of the problems you claim they fix. For instance? Can you actually give a specific example, rather than claiming that a class of example exists, without presenting a member? > > The disagreement has been on whether or not what I think is a problem > > is acknowledged by others to actually be a problem. > > That too. Well, that's just plain intellectual disagreement, and it can be resolved by calm discussion. I'm always up for that. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 19:16:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA00120 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00113 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA28749; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:53:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704170153.SAA28749@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:53:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: spidaman@well.com, hackers@FreeBSD.org, samba@arvidsjaur.anu.edu.au, comp-unix-bsd-freebsd-announce@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <33554C44.41C67EA6@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at Apr 16, 97 03:01:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'd like to use the smbfs and smbmount stuff that the Linux using Samba > > afficiandoes have worked out on FreeBSD (2.2.1) -- is anybody working on > > this? There's also Linux support for SGI's efs that I'd be very happy to > > use under FreeBSD were it available -- anybody working on _that_? If I > > had the skills to port stuff like that I'd work on it but it's outta my > > scope... > > Volker, who wrote the smbfs just left here.. > I think there is a chance that we may get a port out of him, but > not right away.. he didn't seem to be against the idea. I would strongly suggest implementing a session manager interface to enable communication of non-UNIX credentials to the kernel on a per user basis. The user accessable mount command could fork and register the child as the session manager in order to pop up the credential request, if you weren't running an X program or a Windows 95 style "password cache" access program to do the job concurrently with the mount request (or for the automounter to use). Without this, SMBFS requires soft policy enforcement to avoid ursurping the priviledges of the SMB server administrator and perhaps unintentionally breaking the SMB security model. Like the administrator knowing that he should only mount certain kinds of shares, or amd and user owned directories in which mounts can take place, themselves in a non-listable directory. CIFS (the follow on to SMB) will resolve this problem by presenting credentials (Kerberos tickets) at the time of the transaction, but it looks to be a ways off. Maybe we could offer the session manager code under GPL for Linux in trade for the SMBFS port? Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 19:17:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA00204 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p35.tfs.net [206.154.183.227]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00193 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA15005; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:15:06 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704170215.VAA15005@argus> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:15:05 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704162357.QAA28419@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 16, 97 04:57:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > I supposed this semantic attack serves me right for attempting to be > terse in my reponse in consideration of past requests by you, Jordan, > et. al.. If this is the use to which you choose to put my attempted > conformance to those requests... C'este la guerre. [etc, etc, etc, etc...] wake up, smell the coffee... the topic was changed to how to market FreeBSD, not filesystems, implementation issues, etc... let's hear some constructive comments on how such things as i outlined last night might be accomplished... i'll add another few items to my list from last night... 1). chop the price in half to $19.95. 2). drop the subscription priceing, if it's cheap to begin with, then there is no need for a subscription rate... 3). keep SNAP releases as a mail-order item, keep the experimenters happy, but don't confuse the dweebs, er, general public by putting SNAP cds on the shelves... if marketed as i outlined, this will sell more cds in one fell swoop than have been sold to date... the trick is to PUT IT ON THE SHELVES... AVAILABILITY IS WHAT MAKES DEVELOPERS TAKE NOTICE [in case you haven't noticed, that has been my point in the entire discussion]... FreeBSD should be the first *UNIX* to do this... Just ask around, people know about FreeBSD, or have heard of it, and upon learning a bit about it are willing to try it, but invariably the end result is that the user cannot easily get it... if the end user cannot easily obtain the solution, and other solutions are easily obtainable, the developers will pick the latter. QED jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 19:49:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01632 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01627 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA03697; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:48:57 -0700 (PDT) To: "Kevin P. Neal" cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:03:04 EDT." <1.5.4.32.19970416190304.00923e8c@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:48:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3695.861245337@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Even better: give the CDs away. I do that all the time. I think I sent out something like 1000 CDs back when we had all the 1.1x's lying around, and about 600 2.0 CDs met the same fate. Subsequent CD give-aways have gone out in smaller lots, but many a school has received a hundred here and a hundred there for CS classes and such. Kick McKusick's OS internals class uses FreeBSD and we generally provide the CDs for those too. In other words, if you're an educational institution or workshop (like the Developing Countries computing workshop which got several hundred this year) and you have a genuine need, send me email and we'll see what we can work out. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 20:04:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02198 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nyx.pr.mcs.net (nyx.pr.mcs.net [204.95.55.81]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02191 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nyx.pr.mcs.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nyx.pr.mcs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA10376; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:05:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704170305.WAA10376@nyx.pr.mcs.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Brandon Gillespie cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel config 'doconfig' (was: Re: Another Linux Religious war) In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:03:44 -0600. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:05:17 -0500 From: Chris Csanady Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For what its worth, I think someone was going to work on a tk/tcl front end for config. See the "Kernel config metasyntax" thread on the chat list... Is this actually happening? -Chris Csanady From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 20:07:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02378 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02373 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03801; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:07:06 -0700 (PDT) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:09:55 +0200." <19970416220955.BA54744@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:07:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3799.861246426@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I simply don't trust him that it will ever happen. Are you trying to goad me into something here, Joerg? :-) Yes, it has taken two years, but be fair - much of my "install hacking" time has also gone into improving sysinstall so that it was at least more reasonably usable. I really would have liked to have tossed it 1 year and 11 months ago, but that would have been Highly Impractical for the users and so I took a route that was less pleasant for me but, IMO, better for FreeBSD. It also took us until just 1 month ago to find a "CUI" kit that we could actually use (libdialog is a big part of why sysinstall has the inferior interface it has). That kit is TurboVision, and I'm right now in the middle of brushing up my C++ so that I can actually use it. Yes, I hate C++ and I avoid it whenever possible (hence the longer-than-usual start time on this) but I'm going to have to swallow the rising bile and simply Do It since there's really nothing else available. Also, heh heh, help is *always* appreciated with the new sysinstall. Attempting to do it alone is another good reason for its long delay. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 20:09:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02503 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (w2xo.pgh.pa.us [206.210.70.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02497 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by w2xo.pgh.pa.us (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA00973; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <335593F3.167EB0E7@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:07:31 -0400 From: Jim Durham Organization: Dis- X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: floppy disks References: <199704161812.LAA27684@phaeton.artisoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > > > (My old CP/M box was an Altair with Persci 8 inchers and a Tarbell > > controller.) > > Did you decode the Tarbell format message in Isao Tomita's rendition > of Musorgsky's "Pictures At An Exhibition" from the piece "Dance Of > Chicks In their Shells"? > > Just curious... Hmmmm... I like that work, but I'm more partial to the "Great Gates at Kiev". (Gee...is Bill from Russia?). (I know, it's "Gate", but I needed some "poetic license".) Anyhow, no..I have the Herbert Von Karajan/Philharmonia version, so no.. should I dig it up? -Jim Durham From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 20:22:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03068 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03062 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA03881; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:20:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:15:06 MDT." <199704162215.QAA09187@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:20:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3879.861247235@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Note the difference. Very few of your 'processes' are implementable or > would solve the problems you propose to solve. What he said. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 20:34:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA03569 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bacall.lodgenet.com (bacall.lodgenet.com [205.138.147.242]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA03564 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by bacall.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA08485 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:34:15 -0500 Received: from garbo.lodgenet.com(204.124.123.250) by bacall via smap (V1.3) id sma008479; Wed Apr 16 22:33:56 1997 Received: from schmeggie.trosoft.com ([10.0.9.53]) by garbo.lodgenet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA22613 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:33:37 -0500 Received: from knight.trosoft.com (knight.trosoft.com [192.168.200.1]) by schmeggie.trosoft.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA08209 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:32:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lodgenet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by knight.trosoft.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00383 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:34:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704170334.WAA00383@knight.trosoft.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: rsh and ppp Reply-To: johnp@lodgenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:34:28 -0500 From: John Prince Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Why does the rsh command not work when alias is enabled with ppp? I get the error ... "select: protocol failure in circuit setup" This happens only on ppp connections. On the local net rsh works fine. Release 2.2.1-RELEASE.. Help??? John Prince From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 20:48:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04334 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04314 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem08.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.38]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA12890; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:48:23 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3355B7A4.4C01@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:39:48 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aaron Smith CC: Terry Lambert , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk First of all, let me answer the main issue of this thread: Yes, it's feasable to implement many of the filesystems Linux supports, but they are not a priority task. In fact, no one that knows how to implement them really cares. OK. now to the second theme of this thread ..... HEY....STOP IT... I've heard this before: 1) someone wants to know about the EFS filesystem Linux has and if it can be used in FreeBSD. 2) someone says we don't know anything about that shit, and that maybe if there were specifications and source code something could be done. 3) I ask if perhaps an SCO fs could be easier since the Linux code is available. 4) Terry says some drastic changes he has tested and analyzed are required. 5) Everyone(?) says Terry should shut up because he has this fantastic ideas that seem to leed to nowhere, and there's no interest in making our filesystems unstable. 6) Things get personal. Well, I have some comments on this: 1) Since FreeBSD is not a democracy, we should all agree on technical terms to arrange this problem. There is this fs list that has almost no volume of use, so I guess we have seen little technical arguments. 2) I'm not a FS expert, but it's absolutely clear that the changes Terry proposes are innecesary. On the other hand if they work, as he claims, they could bring many advantages, especially in performance, and although I haven't seen tests on our filesystems, there is no reason to believe they are particulary efficient with respect to other OS's. 3) In this particular FreeBSD stage it doesn't seem a good time to make unnecessary drastic changes, but then there is NEVER such a good time, and that shouldn't stop us from introducing improvements. (Note I'm trying to keep neutral ?) My proposal is as follows. 1) Since it's not clear anyone, other than Terry, wants the changes now, we should give a time to work on other things, including some code John Heidemann offered on the filesystems list. 2) Someway of relieving the tension must be deviced between the contending parties (perhaps a challenge? see how's capable of implementing a samba fs first?) 3) A small group of Terry's oppositors should test Terry's patches so that either he understands he's wrong or the patches are committed. In this process the "shuddups", and violent recriminations should cease. Pedro. Aaron Smith wrote: > > After reading this, Terry, I can only conclude that you have a propensity > for pretending knowlede of things you incompletely understand. Your > standard technique appears to be: > > > -- > Aaron Smith aaron@veritas.com > unless explicitly stated, i do not speak for my employer. support free speech. > > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:16:32 PDT, Terry Lambert writes: > From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 20:53:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04626 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04599 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem08.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.38]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA12897; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:51:14 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3355B7BE.19C7@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:40:14 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giles Lean CC: David Nugent , Warner Losh , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: on the subject of changes to -RELEASEs... References: <199704162134.HAA01597@nemeton.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Giles Lean wrote: > > Pedro, > > Many more people call procmail from .forward than have it as their > local mail delivery program so it must be accessible to smrsh. > As I said, I can be wrong, and if procmail is used in the .forward I definitely AM wrong. > David's suggestion that the procmail port install to co-operate with > smrsh is a good one, following the principle of least astonishment. > No problem with me, then. Pedro. > Giles From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 21:01:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05053 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05043 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00475; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:47:47 +0800 (WST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:47:46 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: mark@quickweb.com cc: jjwolf@bleeding.com, drew@sml.co.jp, cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com, falco@vex.net, rsacrack@vex.net, hackers@freebsd.org, deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com Subject: Re: First place. In-Reply-To: <199704162121.OAA28059@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And why should I have to pay for a guy to drive up to my company in a large, > fossil fuel burning van just to send confdential data? Do you think it would > be hard to hi-jack that guy in the van? Of course not... I want to be able > to have private data transfer, to anyone I wish to communicte with.. > You can. Encrypt the data on the tapes. You can get a hell of a lot more data trucking around DAT tapes or hard drives (depending on your needs), and anyone can tap into a cable and listen, but cars can take different routes. :) -- Adrian Chadd | UNIX, MS-DOS and Windows ... | (also known as the Good, the bad and the | ugly..) From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 21:02:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05080 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05071 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04077; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:01:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Aaron Smith cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:23:48 PDT." Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:01:53 -0700 Message-ID: <4075.861249713@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I would recommend easing up on your need to sound authoritative on topics > you have not mastered. The probablity of Terry making such a change is approximately equivalent to that of finding an actual spacecraft tailing the Hale-Bopp comet, all members of the Heaven's Gate cult safely tucked aboard and showing off their new Nikes to a group of admiring aliens. If I were Terry (and perish the very thought), I'd probably also show you the statistical probability graphs for this, lovingly rendered into ASCII art, and using the phrase "transitive closure" at least once. If they ever make a movie of Terry's life, he'll be played by Jeff Goldblum (every time I see that non-explanation of Chaos theory in "Jurassic Park", I think of Terry). Anyway, it makes him happy so who are we to judge? Just so long as one doesn't make the mistake of actually listening to him, he's comparatively harmless and, like Jesus Monroy Jr before him, a fairly good source of comedy material for me (if you're going to make a game of poking fun at crackpots, you do need at least one actual crackpot around to make it work). Like the prototypical village idiot, he performs a valuable service - leave him alone! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 21:03:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05191 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cougar.isg.siue.edu (cougar.isg.siue.edu [146.163.5.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05185 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (nrajara@localhost) by cougar.isg.siue.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA02551 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:07:53 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cougar.isg.siue.edu: nrajara owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:07:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Nags Rajaraman X-Sender: nrajara@cougar To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: mrouted question (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I couldn't get mrouted to start up on my FreeBSD machine. I tried looking at the man page, but with no success. I checked the mrouted.pid file, but it is not getting created. When I give mrouted in the background, it immediately gives the message "Done" and exits. I've setup my /etc/mrouted.conf file as follows: tunnel 146.163.133.107 146.163.130.60 metric 1 threshold 1 tunnel 146.163.133.107 146.163.5.10 metric 1 threshold 1 Could anybody provide any inputs on this? Thanks, Nags From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 21:15:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05819 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05813 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA04148; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:14:43 -0700 (PDT) To: jbryant@tfs.net cc: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert), freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:15:05 CDT." <199704170215.VAA15005@argus> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:14:42 -0700 Message-ID: <4146.861250482@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > i'll add another few items to my list from last night... > > 1). chop the price in half to $19.95. It wouldn't help. This would reduce FreeBSD to the price of the shovelware CDs, and Walnut Creek CDROM has done quite a bit of price experimentation here. Every CD they've discounted this steeply has suffered a _decline_ in sales rather than what you'd expect. There is some odd aspect of human nature which works against making things too cheap - the product suddenly becomes equated with "junk" or something. I frankly don't know what causes this, but it most definitely happens and Rob Kolstad could also tell you a few things about it. When he raised his BSD/OS prices, despite all the public outcry about what evil nasty people they were for doing so, unit sales went UP (as, obviously, did their profit margins). He was recently telling me that even he didn't believe it and told the marketing department that they were out of their trees if they thought increasing the price would increase sales, but they convinced him to try it anyway and and lo and behold, they were right and he was wrong! > 2). drop the subscription priceing, if it's cheap to begin with, > then there is no need for a subscription rate... Heh. There are many reasons for having subs, the price being only one of them. > 3). keep SNAP releases as a mail-order item, keep the > experimenters happy, but don't confuse the dweebs, er, We sell to distributors and end-users both. What the distributors do with the product afterwards is their call, not ours. Basically, I hate to say that you're wrong on all 3 counts and taking your advice would probably be the very very worst thing we could do. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 21:23:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06269 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06263 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA08661; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:23:09 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:23:08 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: John Prince cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rsh and ppp In-Reply-To: <199704170334.WAA00383@knight.trosoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, John Prince wrote: > Why does the rsh command not work when alias is enabled with ppp? > I get the error ... > "select: protocol failure in circuit setup" > This happens only on ppp connections. On the local net rsh works fine. > Release 2.2.1-RELEASE.. Sounds like an rsh emulation is not built into the NAT/alias code. rsh sets up a separate connection for stderr, which is established from server to client. Since you are running with a NAT, the server can't set up the extra connection to the client. If you can, run sshd on the server and use ssh in place of rsh. ssh only uses a single stream. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 21:24:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA06371 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06365 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.2) id OAA22648; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:24:15 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19970417142415.39844@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:24:15 +1000 From: David Dawes To: johnp@lodgenet.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rsh and ppp References: <199704170334.WAA00383@knight.trosoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199704170334.WAA00383@knight.trosoft.com>; from John Prince on Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 10:34:28PM -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 10:34:28PM -0500, John Prince wrote: >Why does the rsh command not work when alias is enabled with ppp? >I get the error ... >"select: protocol failure in circuit setup" >This happens only on ppp connections. On the local net rsh works fine. >Release 2.2.1-RELEASE.. When I tried this a while ago, I found that reserved ports were getting mapped to non-reserved ports, thus breaking things like rsh, rlogin, etc. David From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 21:58:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA07671 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gdi.uoregon.edu (gdi.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07664 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by gdi.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA10705 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:58:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White X-Sender: dwhite@localhost Reply-To: Doug White To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Adaptec 2940 drivers -- What is the story? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Someone want to take a crack at this? Doug White | University of Oregon Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 21:54:33 -0500 (EST) From: David Moffett To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Adaptec 2940 drivers -- What is the story? Normally I grovel appropriately when writing with a question to questions@freebsd.org as all of you know far more than lowly user scum such as myself about Unix... HOWEVER, what is going on with the 2940 drivers? I have a production machine with a 2940UW running just a Seagate disk running 2.1.5R which has been just wonderful. I would *love* to upgrade this machine to 2.2.1R using the Walnut Creek CD-ROM presently winging it's way to me but there has been too much traffic in the USENET news that there are troubles. So what is the deal? Specifically: 1) Are there known problems with the 2.1.5 ahc driver? 2) Are there known or suspected problems with the 2.2.1 ahc driver? 3) If (2) is true and (1) is false, what would it take to roll back to stability in the form of (1)'s driver? 4) Are there known or suspected problems with the 2.1.7.1 ahc driver? 5) If (4) is true and (1) is false, what would it take to roll back to stability in the form of (1)'s driver? 6) What is the one paragraph description of this history of this problem? This is a case of FreeBSD being a victim of it's own success, more and more we *depend* on the STABLE branch REALLY being stable. I would be up to my #$%^& in trouble if the machine got upgraded and then began to do unpleasant things... (The machine's whole configuration: ASUS P55T2P4 Rev 3.0 Intel Pentium 735\\90 running at the rated 133-MHz 32 meg of party fast-page mode 60ns RAM Adaptec 2940 UW running just 1 Seagate ST32155W (rev 0528) ASUS SC-200 (NCR 53c810) PCI SCSI controller running just 1 NEC CD-ROM 501 (rev 2.2) Generic Trident VGA Video (ISA) (the machine is usually headless) SMC 8216C Ethernet (ISA) Logitech Bus Mouse via mse0 The machine is backed up via ftp (cron, rsh and expect are my friends -- Ok, it's weird, but it works and fits within an otherwise weirder environment) and is mainly used as a compute server doing relatively disk intensive activities (though www.cdrom.com it isn't). Little in the way of installed packages (most normal stuff is installed including X) and just one suite of mean, old, nasty C/FORTRAN/sh programs that keep the uptime at 1.00 pretty much forever. ) So how about figuring out what those of us who seek *critical* 2940U/UW stability should be doing and then post the answer to USENET and I think 'announce' too as this is a topic that has festered just a little too long. Thanks as always for a really cool product! David Moffett (dpm@cs.purdue.edu) P.S. how about a 2.1.7.2 CD-ROM with whatever the real solution is? ftping from the net is often a real pain and recompiling on a machine using a broken disk driver doesn't sound like much fun to me... Thanks! From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 22:00:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07789 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gdi.uoregon.edu (gdi.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07744 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by gdi.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA10709 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:00:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White X-Sender: dwhite@localhost Reply-To: Doug White To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Apparent bug in /dev/spkr driver (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Two in one day. Woo. Doug White | University of Oregon Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:25:30 -0600 From: Brett Glass To: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Apparent bug in /dev/spkr driver The /dev/spkr driver apparently can corrupt kernel memory if noises are made in rapid succession. The following Perl code triggers the bug on my 2.1.0-R system (the code for the driver doesn't seem to have changed since then): open (SPKR, ">/dev/speaker"); print SPKR "T120L8O4AF"; # Bing-bong! close (SPKR); open (SPKR, ">/dev/speaker"); print SPKR "T120L8O4AF"; # And again.... close (SPKR); The problem seems to have to do with a race condition and/or with kernel memory allocation. I'm not terribly familiar with BSD kernel programming, and there's no documentation on the full implications of some items in the driver code, so I'm not sure how to pinpoint the problem. Frequently (but not always), when code like the above is executed, the speaker begins to play random noises after the second "print." The process that's playing the sounds may hang, and the system can become unstable. Killing the hung process results in a wide range of awful noises -- and, at least on my machine -- a reboot without sync'ing the file system. (I had to do extensive reconstruction of /dev after the crash.) There may also be a potential security exploit here, since the play string is copied into kernel memory. An earlier bug fix to the driver appears not to have solved all of the potential problems with it. Can someone help to identify the source of the problem and a fix for it? --Brett Glass From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 22:25:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA08829 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA08805 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id FAA22640; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:24:44 GMT Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:24:44 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock Reply-To: Michael Hancock To: Jason Scheck cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-Reply-To: <5j15f4$mmg@hoax.cse.tek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 15 Apr 1997, Jason Scheck wrote: > Linux has a file system driver that I would very much like to use on my > home FreeBSD server (a Macintosh HFS driver). Assuming some driver > aptitude, what is the feasibility of converting this driver to run under > FreeBSD? Are the models totally incompatible? The vfs and vnode interfaces of various UNIX operating systems are incompatible but similar. > The DOS filesystem driver has been broken for long enough that it seems > that it might be difficult. However, it might not have been converted due File systems are difficult and you also need to know something about the VM system because of their symbiotic relationship. Both are complex systems but well worth the effort to try and understand IMHO. Someone has been working on a new msdosfs, but has been overloaded with work. > to filesystem issues. I do know that some version of the ext2fs runs > under both. Ext2fs which has been modified to use the BSD4.4 vnode interface and share some ufs inode code is being used by a number of people under FreeBSD. > Any advice will be appreciated. Take a look at some of the source sitting in /sys/miscfs and /sys/msdosfs. The book 'Unix Internals: The New Frontiers' has a lot of info on filesystems in general. 'The Design of the 4.4BSD Operating System' is also a good for info specific to 4.4 derived OSes. References in both lead to other good sources of information as well. The Linux Document project describes ext2fs and the Linux vfs/vnode implementation pretty well. Regards, Mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 22:33:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA09314 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p4.tfs.net [206.154.183.196]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA09300 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA15351; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:33:51 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704170533.AAA15351@argus> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:33:50 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <4146.861250482@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 16, 97 09:14:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > i'll add another few items to my list from last night... > > > > 1). chop the price in half to $19.95. > > It wouldn't help. This would reduce FreeBSD to the price of the > shovelware CDs, and Walnut Creek CDROM has done quite a bit of price > experimentation here. Every CD they've discounted this steeply has > suffered a _decline_ in sales rather than what you'd expect. There is > some odd aspect of human nature which works against making things too > cheap - the product suddenly becomes equated with "junk" or something. > I frankly don't know what causes this, but it most definitely happens > and Rob Kolstad could also tell you a few things about it. When he > raised his BSD/OS prices, despite all the public outcry about what > evil nasty people they were for doing so, unit sales went UP (as, > obviously, did their profit margins). He was recently telling me that > even he didn't believe it and told the marketing department that they > were out of their trees if they thought increasing the price would > increase sales, but they convinced him to try it anyway and and lo and > behold, they were right and he was wrong! > > > 2). drop the subscription priceing, if it's cheap to begin with, > > then there is no need for a subscription rate... > > Heh. There are many reasons for having subs, the price being only one > of them. okay... i'll accept your reasoning, however absurd it may sound, it may be similar reasons that people still buy ibm [the most expensive name tag ever slapped on a cheap taiwanese box]... > > 3). keep SNAP releases as a mail-order item, keep the > > experimenters happy, but don't confuse the dweebs, er, > > We sell to distributors and end-users both. What the distributors > do with the product afterwards is their call, not ours. what do they do with them? i have yet to see a store carrying FreeBSD... > Basically, I hate to say that you're wrong on all 3 counts and taking > your advice would probably be the very very worst thing we could do. :-) at least go back and read last night's list... and you must admit... i am right about the exposure/distribution factor, maybe walnut creek needs to get some distributors serious about getting the disks out on the shelves... so far as my personal experience goes, never having seen FreeBSD at a retail store, and only once seeing them sold anywhere [WC's booth at netexpo in dallas in '95, i still have the tee-shirt], mail-order needs to be moved to a secondary marketing focus behind retail stores [comp-usa or computer city would cover a lot of ground, for starters, they sell a lot of linux].. until such a shift is made, developers will bypass FreeBSD and go for linux [ugh]... your book is a start... bundle the latest RELEASE with it on CD... but then again that would probably be a decision for the publisher to make... but the linux precedent is in this category too, actually minix was the first to do this... i've got to crash, but at least ponder my point a bit longer, the more you think about it, the more it makes sense... i would rather not see FreeBSD fall into obscurity because of bad marketing being the primary cause for the lack of serious developer support. there are a lot of supporters out there [including me], but that don't amount to a hill of beans to corporations who are only concerned with whether it's easily obtainable locally, and has a large user base. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 22:41:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA09697 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p4.tfs.net [206.154.183.196]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA09688 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA15389; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:41:16 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704170541.AAA15389@argus> Subject: Re: rsh and ppp To: danny@panda.hilink.com.au (Daniel O'Callaghan) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:41:16 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: from "Daniel O'Callaghan" at Apr 17, 97 02:23:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, John Prince wrote: > > > Why does the rsh command not work when alias is enabled with ppp? > > I get the error ... > > "select: protocol failure in circuit setup" > > This happens only on ppp connections. On the local net rsh works fine. > > Release 2.2.1-RELEASE.. > > Sounds like an rsh emulation is not built into the NAT/alias code. rsh > sets up a separate connection for stderr, which is established from > server to client. Since you are running with a NAT, the server can't set > up the extra connection to the client. If you can, run sshd on the > server and use ssh in place of rsh. ssh only uses a single stream. i highly recommend running sshd and friends! "Just Say No" in /etc/inetd!!!! sshd can also do encrypted x forwarding through an ssh/sshd connection... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 22:42:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA09788 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA09782 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id FAA22745; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:41:31 GMT Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:41:31 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Pedro Giffuni cc: Aaron Smith , Terry Lambert , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-Reply-To: <3355B7A4.4C01@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > My proposal is as follows. > 1) Since it's not clear anyone, other than Terry, wants the changes now, > we should give a time to work on other things, including some code John > Heidemann offered on the filesystems list. John H. is packaging some utok stuff for me written for SunOS for use in out of kernel development. We might have to do a custom ktou and transport layer to use it. They used NFS for the transport layer in their Ficus project, but it depends on a userland NFS server to work. We will also have to do some kernel api emulation. I'll have to talk to John Dyson and others to see if that is even feasible for all the calls the fs code needs to make. Regards, Mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 22:48:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA10115 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sand.sentex.ca (sand.sentex.ca [206.222.77.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA10082 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gravel (gravel.sentex.ca [205.211.165.210]) by sand.sentex.ca (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id BAA02355; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970417013405.00ba9290@sentex.net> X-Sender: mdtancsa@sentex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:34:05 -0400 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Mike Tancsa Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <4146.861250482@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:14 PM 4/16/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> i'll add another few items to my list from last night... >> >> 1). chop the price in half to $19.95. > >When he >raised his BSD/OS prices, despite all the public outcry about what >evil nasty people they were for doing so, unit sales went UP (as, >obviously, did their profit margins). He was recently telling me that >even he didn't believe it and told the marketing department that they >were out of their trees if they thought increasing the price would >increase sales, but they convinced him to try it anyway and and lo and >behold, they were right and he was wrong! Although I agree price and sales dont always inversely correlate, there are other mitigating factors as well: i.e. the general increase of the people and companies being on the Internet. I suspect that (and the fact that BSD/OS an excellent product) had more to do with BSD sales rather than just people's perception of quality correlating to price. However, I am sure some market segments would be more prone to this than others. A lot of our really big corp customers who look to expand their net presence ask us for recommendations. When we tell them about FreeBSD they look at us funny when we tell them its free... Typically, their response is "You mean I am going to trust my million dollar a week business to some free software ? No way! Whats the number for SUN again ?" I suppose however, if we told them FreeBSD was in fact $2000, plus another $1000 a year for fixes, they would probably seriously consider it. However, our smaller business customers are quite open to it. To them, what matters is that it works, is reasonably priced, and is secure. For them, shaving $20 off the price is not an issue. ---Mike ********************************************************************** Mike Tancsa (mike@sentex.net) * To do is to be -- Nietzsche Sentex Communications Corp, * To be is to do -- Sartre Cambridge, Ontario * Do be do be do -- Sinatra (http://www.sentex.net/~mdtancsa) * From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 23:06:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA11117 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nyx.pr.mcs.net (nyx.pr.mcs.net [204.95.55.81]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11112 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nyx.pr.mcs.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nyx.pr.mcs.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA10948; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:06:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199704170606.BAA10948@nyx.pr.mcs.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Pedro Giffuni cc: Aaron Smith , Terry Lambert , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:39:48 -0700. <3355B7A4.4C01@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:06:30 -0500 From: Chris Csanady Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >1) Since FreeBSD is not a democracy, we should all agree on technical >terms to arrange this problem. There is this fs list that has almost no >volume of use, so I guess we have seen little technical arguments. Speaking of the relative inactivity on the filesystems list, I find it ironic that we have not found a way to integrate Terry's work yet. He seems to be one of the few people that has a grasp of all the issues involved, and has tried to fix some of them. I seriously doubt that Terry has anything but good intentions. From all the posts and email I have seen from him, I'd have to say that he is fairly experienced when it comes to filesystems and SMP, and has proposed some valuable ideas. It just dissapoints me to see these threads end up in Terry bashing time and again. I'd like to see this resolved as much as the next person, but I'd also hate to see all of his work thrown away because of some personal conflicts. We really are all on the same side here, and should not lost sight of that. >2) I'm not a FS expert, but it's absolutely clear that the changes Terry >proposes are innecesary. On the other hand if they work, as he claims, >they could bring many advantages, especially in performance, and >although I haven't seen tests on our filesystems, there is no reason to >believe they are particulary efficient with respect to other OS's. I don't think that anyone would dispute that the current VFS framework is somewhat flawed, and I for one would love to see this fixed. It would be great to see quotas seperated out from the fs's, and other layers such as encryption/compression/acls and such. As I understand it, some of this is not currently possible, and no one else is really working on it. Anyways, I really hope no one reads anything hostile into this mail--I'm just another user who would like to see FreeBSD improved.. --Chris Csanady From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 23:17:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA11587 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11582 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA04628; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:17:07 -0700 (PDT) To: jbryant@tfs.net cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:33:50 CDT." <199704170533.AAA15351@argus> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:17:06 -0700 Message-ID: <4626.861257826@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > We sell to distributors and end-users both. What the distributors > > do with the product afterwards is their call, not ours. > > what do they do with them? i have yet to see a store carrying > FreeBSD... I don't know where you live, but they can be found at both Fry's and "Weird Stuff" - two popular Bay Area computer outlets. Fry's, strangely enough, even seems to know what they're selling in this case. I noticed only 2.1.6s CDs last time I was there and asked a salesperson about it - he noted that they had ordered the 2.1.7 and 2.2 CDs and were still waiting for their distributor to ship them to them. The fact that he actually knew the correct release numbers for the "future" products was pretty heartening - I didn't even expect him to know what the product was. :-) I've also seen copies at Cody's bookstore in Berkeley, a popular hangout for CS types. More linux stuff, naturally, but they at least had FreeBSD in the retail box in their OS section. I believe you can also find them at Computer Literacy, though I haven't checked recently. This is not to say that there aren't stores we could still get into that we're not, and I've often wondered what the penalties are for reverse-shoplifting. I walk in with 10 of the latest FreeBSD CDs (already price-stickered at the usual retail price of $24.95) and surrepticiously stick them on the shelves. It's an option which has crossed my mind more than once. :-) > at least go back and read last night's list... and you must admit... > i am right about the exposure/distribution factor, maybe walnut creek > needs to get some distributors serious about getting the disks out on > the shelves... They are serious and they are trying, but Rome wasn't built in a day and they're still rebuilding their distributor sales force (they had some personnel changes which left them understaffed, but they've been hiring aggressively and now appear to have it back up to snuff, albeit not quite so experienced as before [that just takes time]). Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 23:24:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA11918 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from borg.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11913 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (user-37kb9ac.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.165.76]) by borg.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA21967; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970417062426.0072f784@mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:24:26 -0400 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:14 PM 4/16/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> i'll add another few items to my list from last night... >> >> 1). chop the price in half to $19.95. > >It wouldn't help. This would reduce FreeBSD to the price of the >shovelware CDs, and Walnut Creek CDROM has done quite a bit of price >experimentation here. Every CD they've discounted this steeply has >suffered a _decline_ in sales rather than what you'd expect. There is >some odd aspect of human nature which works against making things too >cheap - the product suddenly becomes equated with "junk" or something. Well, "It's expensive: It *has* to be good!". I'm told this is a fairly well known happening. -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci. - House of Retrocomputing XCOMM mailto:kpneal@pobox.com - http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ XCOMM kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates: XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!" From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 23:29:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA12193 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (metriclient-5.uoregon.edu [128.223.172.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12184 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA00671; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19970416232855.00703@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:28:55 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Mike Tancsa Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <3.0.1.32.19970417013405.00ba9290@sentex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970417013405.00ba9290@sentex.net>; from Mike Tancsa on Thu, Apr 17, 1997 at 01:34:05AM -0400 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-960801-SNAP i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Tancsa scribbled this message on Apr 17: > really big corp customers who look to expand their net presence ask us for > recommendations. When we tell them about FreeBSD they look at us funny > when we tell them its free... Typically, their response is "You mean I am > going to trust my million dollar a week business to some free software ? No > way! Whats the number for SUN again ?" I suppose however, if we told them > FreeBSD was in fact $2000, plus another $1000 a year for fixes, they would > probably seriously consider it. However, our smaller business customers so why not quote them that price and just donate the funds back to the project?? I know that some people would be more responsive to problem reports with the kind of money coming in.. :) just a thought.. :) -- John-Mark Cu Networking Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 23:30:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA12330 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12311 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA17642 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:29:39 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id IAA27319 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:29:09 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.5/keltia-uucp-2.9) id HAA19524; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:34:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970417073448.18678@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:34:48 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mail exploders... References: <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>; <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67 In-Reply-To: ; from Richard Wackerbarth on Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 05:43:30PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3195 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Richard Wackerbarth: > So are you saying that if there are 100 subscribers in the .fr domain, > 100 copies of each message are sent from California to France and from > there directed to the individual recipients? Not at all. The mailertable entry makes sendmail sending just one copy with all the recipients and mail-relay will then split the message for all the recipients with the MX. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #41: Sun Mar 23 23:01:22 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 16 23:32:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA12514 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12505 for ; Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id AAA08333 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:32:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA14480 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:32:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:32:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: source address for ping causes crash? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was testing a copy of ping with the following changes to allow you to specify the local address with the -S option. Appeared to be working fine (and is, in some situations, a very useful thing to have) but then the box I was testing it on rebooted itself. Was not near the console so I don't know if it paniced or just rebooted. Any reason what I'm trying shouldn't work? There are around 75 alias interfaces on lo0 on that box which is running 2.2 from a couple of weeks ago. Don't have time to track the cause (or run it on a box I'm sitting in front of) now, but if no one has any suggestions I will look into it when I get a chance. Index: ping.c =================================================================== RCS file: /usr/cvs/src/sbin/ping/ping.c,v retrieving revision 1.8.2.8 diff -c -r1.8.2.8 ping.c *** ping.c 1997/03/03 09:44:16 1.8.2.8 --- ping.c 1997/04/17 06:25:08 *************** *** 121,126 **** --- 121,127 ---- char rcvd_tbl[MAX_DUP_CHK / 8]; struct sockaddr whereto; /* who to ping */ + struct sockaddr_in *wherefrom; /* source address */ int datalen = DEFDATALEN; int s; /* socket file descriptor */ u_char outpack[MAXPACKET]; *************** *** 184,190 **** preload = 0; datap = &outpack[8 + sizeof(struct timeval)]; ! while ((ch = getopt(argc, argv, "I:LQRT:c:adfi:l:np:qrs:v")) != -1) switch(ch) { case 'a': options |= F_AUDIBLE; --- 185,191 ---- preload = 0; datap = &outpack[8 + sizeof(struct timeval)]; ! while ((ch = getopt(argc, argv, "I:LQRS:T:c:adfi:l:np:qrs:v")) != -1) switch(ch) { case 'a': options |= F_AUDIBLE; *************** *** 276,281 **** --- 277,302 ---- exit(1); } break; + case 'S': /* source address */ + wherefrom = (struct sockaddr_in *) + calloc(1, sizeof(struct sockaddr_in)); + wherefrom->sin_family = AF_INET; + wherefrom->sin_len = sizeof(struct sockaddr_in); + wherefrom->sin_port = htons(INADDR_ANY); + wherefrom->sin_addr.s_addr = inet_addr(optarg); + if (wherefrom->sin_addr.s_addr == (u_int)-1) { + hp = gethostbyname(optarg); + if (!hp) { + (void)fprintf(stderr, + "ping: unknown host %s\n", optarg); + exit(1); + } + wherefrom->sin_family = hp->h_addrtype; + if (hp->h_length > sizeof(wherefrom->sin_addr)) + errx(1,"gethostbyname returned an illegal address"); + bcopy(hp->h_addr, (caddr_t)&wherefrom->sin_addr.s_addr, hp->h_length); + } + break; case 'T': /* multicast TTL */ i = atoi(optarg); if (i < 0 || i > 255) { *************** *** 522,527 **** --- 543,551 ---- /* compute ICMP checksum here */ icp->icmp_cksum = in_cksum((u_short *)icp, cc); + + if (wherefrom && bind(s, (struct sockaddr *)wherefrom, sizeof(struct sockaddr_in))) + err(1, "bind (source address)"); i = sendto(s, (char *)outpack, cc, 0, &whereto, sizeof(struct sockaddr)); From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 00:22:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA15617 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA15608 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA14898 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:22:32 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA09693; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:12:02 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970417091202.BH22683@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:12:02 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. References: <19970416220955.BA54744@uriah.heep.sax.de> <3799.861246426@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3799.861246426@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Apr 16, 1997 20:07:06 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I simply don't trust him that it will ever happen. > > Are you trying to goad me into something here, Joerg? :-) Me? Nooo.... :-* > Yes, it has taken two years, but be fair - much of my "install > hacking" time has also gone into improving sysinstall so that it was > at least more reasonably usable. Yep, you don't need to convince me... After all, we've learned a lot about the things such a tool should do. > Also, heh heh, help is *always* appreciated with the new sysinstall. Once you've got a basic framework one can build upon, be assured i will have a look at it. You know that i've been in sysinstall occasionally as well. Btw., that's the right time to move it under /usr/src/usr.sbin/, so all that needs to be done under /usr/src/release/ is to compose the crunced binaries etc. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 00:44:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA16891 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16884 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA00505; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704170744.AAA00505@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: John-Mark Gurney cc: Mike Tancsa , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:28:55 PDT." <19970416232855.00703@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:44:23 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am lost here . I have been looking for price quotes on the source and I can't find any . Couldn't we pretty please take this sort of stuff to chat and the Holy Shit War too. I thought hackers for techie stuff. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of John-Mark Gurney : > Mike Tancsa scribbled this message on Apr 17: > > really big corp customers who look to expand their net presence ask us for > > recommendations. When we tell them about FreeBSD they look at us funny > > when we tell them its free... Typically, their response is "You mean I am > > going to trust my million dollar a week business to some free software ? No > > way! Whats the number for SUN again ?" I suppose however, if we told them > > FreeBSD was in fact $2000, plus another $1000 a year for fixes, they would > > probably seriously consider it. However, our smaller business customers > > so why not quote them that price and just donate the funds back to the > project?? I know that some people would be more responsive to problem > reports with the kind of money coming in.. :) > > just a thought.. :) > > -- > John-Mark > Cu Networking Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 > > Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 00:45:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA16991 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.linkdesign.com (nserv1.hlink.com.cy [194.42.131.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16976 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bsd.linkdesign.com (nicosia5.cylink.com.cy [194.42.129.5]) by relay.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA29426 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:45:49 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from michael.bielicki@localhost) by bsd.linkdesign.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA09555; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:43:28 +0300 (EEST) From: Michael Bielicki Message-ID: <19970417104327.18289@linkdesign.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:43:27 +0300 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NCR 53c875 support broken in 2.2.1. References: <3613.861244357@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-md5; boundary=PNTmBPCT7hxwcZjr X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 In-Reply-To: <3613.861244357@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" on Wed, Apr 16, 1997 at 07:32:37PM -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --PNTmBPCT7hxwcZjr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is the same problem existiing in 3.0 ???? I am settign up a bunch of servers next week and wanted to use CURRENT cause it has less errors and runs more stable over here, and all of them have 875's and QUANTUM HDD :)) feeling horrified by broken SCSI dirvers Michael -- Michael Bielicki Link Design International Ltd. Buisnetco Telecommunications Ltd. 65 Cliff Road, Tramore, Office 23, 13, Iras Street Co. Waterford, Ireland Nicosia 1061, Rep. of Cyprus Tel: +353-51-390880 We use FreeBSD Tel: +357 2 362 421 Fax: +353 51 386921 http://www.linkdesign.com Fax: +357 2 362 429 --PNTmBPCT7hxwcZjr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Comment: Requires PGP version 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBM1XUn8neSpf+YTVhAQEHOAQAmeO6D9sXqviO35vdmFqfF+mPhecLYTqc 0UEqR0xg/KH3XKFFRIRy14rCcAx//Tl6I+Ea1ut5xUuskaLBIDSFkpcqQIg1oDSP nwcAhhm4k6wzYxj2LSs5q2SD3nW7nXhpWi7rKdwCphRCnkyhoZi+2zZ7gK+gXxuN hqEWcs+k5r8= =ysJ5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PNTmBPCT7hxwcZjr-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 00:59:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA17821 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA17816 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA05006 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:59:46 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Terry-bashing, by way of explanation... Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:59:46 -0700 Message-ID: <5004.861263986@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk While no one has really reacted to my last message yet, upon re-reading it myself I have to say that I think I may have gone a little far with that "village idiot" reference (and while I didn't actually _call_ Terry an idiot, I made a comparison which pretty much equates to the same thing). Let me therefore try and back up a few steps here and make some less pejorative, more detailed comments: 1. Despite my rather high level of frustration with Terry, I should note that I don't actually think he's an idiot or otherwise feel that his intelligence is lacking. I suspect that Terry is actually quite bright and simply suffers from some rather odd compulsions when it comes to showing off that intelligence. That may be amateur psychology on my part, but I'm hardly the only one to make the observation. 2. I don't think that Terry is necessarily always wrong. In fact, I'm sure that some reasonable percentage of the things he says here are perfectly correct. I also wasn't referring to his filesystem-related postings (among some of the areas in which he sincerely tries to make a technical contribution) when I jumped on him for being "wrong" about so many things. It really isn't an issue of technical competence where Terry and I are concerned, it being more a question of his ability (or lack thereof) to detect when something has passed the point of being fodder for reasonable discussion. It is this latter attribute which, I at least feel, underlies the core of most of our problems with Terry. While he may be a bright guy, he does indeed appear to lack whatever gene it is that allows one to tell when one's listener has long since lost interest and is now contemplating the practicality of suicide by tongue-swallowing (if no more fatal instrument is readily at hand). On a mailing list, this is naturally a somewhat more complex question since it could, no doubt, be argued that *someone* is always interested to some degree, but I think it's also fair to say that the average must be taken when dealing with any mailing list. If a subject has droned on past 10-15 volleys and the average length of each posting is in excess of 2-3 pages, it doesn't take a Stephen Hawking to suppose that a more than reasonable majority of listeners have dropped off and are now simply being bombarded with noise for all they're concerned. Another problem with Terry is that he seems to feel that dictating to the project, especially the core team, about ways and means is always welcome. In point of fact, it's really NOT and most of the time we'd really rather be left alone to simply do our work. Whether this state of affairs is ideal or not is irrelevant - it's simply not for Terry or anyone else to judge our methods, despite whatever they may think to the contrary, and anyone who's deeply dissatisfied with our operating model is certainly encouraged to go find an operating system which more closely conforms to their ideals. The same is no more or less true for any other piece of software you might want to run. This is not to say that we're immune to all criticism or do not welcome constructive comments about how we might do things more efficiently/better/faster/whatever, simply that there may come a point in every dialog of this nature where the conclusion is "thank you for your input but we're simply going to keep doing it this way, OK?" At that point it's sort of hoped and expected that the questioner will understand our position and make the decision to either live with it or go find something else to do - the alternative option of simply prolonging the argument in hopes that we'll eventually cave in not being any kind of option at all. Some have tried this and all they've achieved is to alienate us, Terry being a very good example; he just does NOT know when to quit where this is concerned and for all our sakes I really do wish he'd learn because he's driving me (and others) nuts. That is the essence of my frustration with Terry and why, despite having what appears to be more than enough potential to become a serious contributor, he's held back from any more expanded role in this project. His personal communications style has earned him the distrust of the entire core team and his "committer status", while never directly requested by him, *has* been discussed more than a few times in core and the very idea rejected each time by unanimous vote. This is actually so rare an occurrence that I can't think of anyone else to whom it's happened - over 90 people have now "run the gauntlet" of joining committers with very little fuss at all, and it's certainly not the core team's policy to reject people lightly. All I can do is urge all of you to consider these facts the next time Terry starts up about how we're obstructing his work or making him jump over barricades erected for no one else. Yes, there *are* now barricades in Terry's way, but I can also assure you that they're entirely of his own making. And now back to your regularly scheduled -hackers mail... Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 01:17:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA18716 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA18709 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA05076; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:16:54 -0700 (PDT) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:12:02 +0200." <19970417091202.BH22683@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:16:54 -0700 Message-ID: <5074.861265014@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Once you've got a basic framework one can build upon, be assured i > will have a look at it. You know that i've been in sysinstall > occasionally as well. OK, cool. > Btw., that's the right time to move it under /usr/src/usr.sbin/, so > all that needs to be done under /usr/src/release/ is to compose the > crunced binaries etc. Indeed. It will also undergo a transition to the name "setup" at that point. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 01:18:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA18793 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (ppp010-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA18788 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id BAA09215; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:18:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199704170818.BAA09215@superior.mooseriver.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970417013405.00ba9290@sentex.net> from Mike Tancsa at "Apr 17, 97 01:34:05 am" To: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >At 09:14 PM 4/16/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>> i'll add another few items to my list from last night... >>> >>> 1). chop the price in half to $19.95. >> [ DELETED ] >some market segments would be more prone to this than others. A lot of our >really big corp customers who look to expand their net presence ask us for >recommendations. When we tell them about FreeBSD they look at us funny >when we tell them its free... Typically, their response is "You mean I am >going to trust my million dollar a week business to some free software ? No >way! Whats the number for SUN again ?" I suppose however, if we told them >FreeBSD was in fact $2000, plus another $1000 a year for fixes, they would >probably seriously consider it. However, our smaller business customers >are quite open to it. To them, what matters is that it works, is >reasonably priced, and is secure. For them, shaving $20 off the price is >not an issue. > > > ---Mike I must agree with Mike. I did a contract for a Fortune 100 company in Chicago last year who were a died-in-the-wool IBM Mainframe shop. If you were to cut these guys they would bleed "Big Blue". One of the things I did for them was help them connect to the Internet. I suggested they use FreeBSD to handle their DNS needs. They predictably reacted in horror to the idea of using "shareware". They were less that pleased when I pointed out that their brand new, spiffy HP K210 that was purchased to handle DNS was running the previous release of the "shareware" BIND that FreeBSD used. It is this attitude that has made IBM and Microslime the Goliaths that they are. Big, over-bearing and generally intimidating the populace. Just waiting for some nice Jewish boy to come along and bean them one. Josef "Have another Bagel" Grosch -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.1 jgrosch@sirius.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 01:41:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA19940 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA19928 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from truk.brandinnovators.com (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 25936 on Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:41:01 +0200; id KAA25936 efrom: hans@truk.brandinnovators.com; eto: UNKNOWN Received: by truk.brandinnovators.com (8.7.5/BI96070101) for <> id JAA12959; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:55:59 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199704170755.JAA12959@truk.brandinnovators.com> From: hans@brandinnovators.com (Hans Zuidam) Subject: Re: Apparent bug in /dev/spkr driver (fwd) To: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:55:59 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from Doug White at "Apr 16, 97 10:00:00 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Doug White wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:25:30 -0600 > From: Brett Glass > To: questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Apparent bug in /dev/spkr driver > > The problem seems to have to do with a race condition and/or with kernel > memory allocation. I'm not terribly familiar with BSD kernel programming, > and there's no documentation on the full implications of some items in the > driver code, so I'm not sure how to pinpoint the problem. > > Can someone help to identify the source of the problem and a fix for it? Maybe this helps... In the speaker driver it does: n = uio->uio_resid; cp = spkr_inbuf->b_un.b_addr; if (!(error = uiomove(cp, n, uio))) playstring(cp, n); According to a discussion I had with Bruce Evans because of a similar problem in a home grown driver, it seems that uiomove() can sleep and that therefore another uiomove() may mess up the driver's buffers. The speaker driver should lock its buffer before doing the uiomove(). Actually, many drivers do not lock their private I/O buffers before uiomove()-ing. Hope this helps a bit. Regards, Hans -- H. Zuidam E-Mail: hans@brandinnovators.com Brand Innovators B.V. P-Mail: P.O. Box 1377 de Pinckart 54 5602 BJ Eindhoven, The Netherlands 5674 CC Nuenen Tel. +31 40 2631134, Fax. +31 40 2831138 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 01:48:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA20260 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA20254 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id IAA24071; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:48:22 GMT Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:48:22 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <4626.861257826@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > We sell to distributors and end-users both. What the distributors > > > do with the product afterwards is their call, not ours. > > > > what do they do with them? i have yet to see a store carrying > > FreeBSD... > > I don't know where you live, but they can be found at both Fry's and > "Weird Stuff" - two popular Bay Area computer outlets. Fry's, You can find them at Laox or T-Zone in Akihabara and other places if you're in Tokyo. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 01:53:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA20401 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA20396; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA22218; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:54:02 -0700 (PDT) From: The Devil Himself To: Darius Moos cc: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: New list suggest. and Re: WWW-page of FreeBSD-vs.-Linux-comparison In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417093135.00facce0@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Darius Moos wrote: > Hi folks, > > recently someone on this list announced setting up a WWW-page that > would sum up all the FreeBSD vs. Linux pros and cons. > > Does this page already exist? > > Darius Moos. Yeah. Despite having gotten some heat, probably justifiable, from several corners, I have a page with a small collection of mail flung across -hackers and -questions concerning FreeBSD vs. Linux mainly, with a few reference to other free OS's. I am not in any way trying to evangelize one over the other, though I do prefer FreeBSD; this is just an archive of the more (I thought) intelligent statements; excluding things like 'blah is better because I said so' and the like. I put up mails as they come in, and if I find a long thread of FreeBSD vs WinNT or something of the like, I'll post them too. I just post these because it seems fairly common for people to ask 'which is better, which should I go with'. I figured that instead of starting big blood feuds everyitme with more people flaming each other, we could just point them to this page, and let them read and figure it out themselves. I'm always open to mroe suggestions or posts, if anyone feels like it. ****************************************************************** HERE'S A THOUGHT!!!!!!!!!! Why don't we create a miling list to compare FreeBSD vs. Linux vs. Solaris, vs. SCO vs. 95 vs. NT vs. blah blah blah. ****************************************************************** Just a thought... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* |FreeBSD is good. FreeBSD is our friend. UNIX is our god.| *Micro$oft is bad. Micro$oft causes problems.* |MicroBSD??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!| |"I hate quotes in signature files" :-} MAtthew Fuller| *fullermd@narcissus.ml.org FreeBSD junkie* |http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd Westminster College| *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 02:12:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA21388 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA21381 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:12:32 -0700 (PDT) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) id FAA00945; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA02293; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:06:36 +0200 Message-Id: <9704170906.AA02293@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message from Pedro Giffuni of Wed, 16 Apr 97 22:39:48 PDT. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Apr 97 11:06:36 +0200 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co writes: [snip] > HEY....STOP IT... > [snip] > In this process the "shuddups", and violent recriminations should cease. > > Pedro. > I agree 100% with the sentiments expressed here. All the ad hominem attacks and vitriol which get posted to these list should be restricted to private mails. --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 02:22:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA21701 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA21694 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) id LAA02704; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:20:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Eivind Eklund Message-Id: <199704170920.LAA02704@nic.follonett.no> Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:20:46 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <33554C44.41C67EA6@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Apr 16, 97 03:01:40 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ian Kallen wrote: > > > > I'd like to use the smbfs and smbmount stuff that the Linux using Samba > > afficiandoes have worked out on FreeBSD (2.2.1) -- is anybody working on > > this? There's also Linux support for SGI's efs that I'd be very happy to > > use under FreeBSD were it available -- anybody working on _that_? If I > > had the skills to port stuff like that I'd work on it but it's outta my > > scope... > > > > Volker, who wrote the smbfs just left here.. > I think there is a chance that we may get a port out of him, but > not right away.. he didn't seem to be against the idea. I started attempting to port that code - it seemed like a major nightmare. Everything seemed to be written to be as Linux-specific as possible. When generic interfaces was available, the Linux-specific ones has been chosen for no technical reason. As an example, all constants available there was taken from , even when the parameters the code get are also available in e.g. For the time being, I'd suggest looking at smbmount (the NFS faker) - it should run on FreeBSD fairly directly. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 02:31:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22013 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA22006 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA24082 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:30:57 +1000 Received: from troll.devetir.qld.gov.au by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.7.5/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id TAA02494 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:19:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (syssgm@localhost) by troll.devetir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA10663; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:19:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199704170919.TAA10663@troll.devetir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: troll.devetir.qld.gov.au: syssgm@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org cc: syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Switching one hack for another in ufs/ufs/dir.h Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:19:03 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been looking at the hack in ufs/ufs/dir.h for supporting old (pre 4.4) directory entries. It came about because a short was split into two bytes, one of which was, conveniently, always zero in existing file systems. Yes, this is actually relevant to the real world as I have some old external disk packs that I just carried over unchanged from BSD/OS 1.0 to FreeBSD and I was interested in the mechanism that allowed it to work. Wouldn't it be better to put the hack in the definition of struct direct rather than in the DIRSIZ macro? I think what we have currently violates the principle of least surprise. Instead of the current hack, I'd use something like: struct direct { u_int32_t d_ino; /* inode number of entry */ u_int16_t d_reclen; /* length of this record */ #if (BYTE_ORDER == LITTLE_ENDIAN) u_int8_t d_namlen; /* length of string in d_name */ u_int8_t d_type; /* file type, see below */ #else u_int8_t d_type; /* file type, see below */ u_int8_t d_namlen; /* length of string in d_name */ #endif char d_name[MAXNAMLEN + 1];/* name with length <= MAXNAMLEN */ }; #define DIRSIZ(oldfmt, dp) DIRECTSIZ((dp)->d_namlen) Ok, now that I've really got your blood pumping with enthusiasm, I can sit back and wait for your opinions. :-) Stephen. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 02:33:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22151 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA22138 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA01469; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704170932.CAA01469@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: jgrosch@sirius.com cc: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Apr 1997 01:18:10 PDT." <199704170818.BAA09215@superior.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:32:54 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Josef Grosch : > >At 09:14 PM 4/16/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > It is this attitude that has made IBM and Microslime the Goliaths that they > are. Big, over-bearing and generally intimidating the populace. Just waiting > for some nice Jewish boy to come along and bean them one. > > > Josef "Have another Bagel" Grosch Well, after that comment . I am beginning to think that the only way to get back on track is to shutdown the mailing list for a day or so and then maybe when it comes back up it will continue on the techie side. We are losing it folks :( Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 02:41:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22475 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdhack@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA22470 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdhack@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id MAA29425; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:41:16 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199704170941.MAA29425@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Problems with afterstep and swap In-Reply-To: <19970416224354.59658@keltia.freenix.fr> from Ollivier Robert at "Apr 16, 97 10:43:54 pm" To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:41:16 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 11. I am also running the afterstep window manager. I am using > This is your problem. I've not tried 1.0pre5/6 but with 1.0pre2, I was well, i would suggest trying the pre6, since it's much better than the previous pre versions... same with all the betas, bigger the number, usually better the beta is... > Afterstep is very nice but it is much too slow and eating too much memory. i dont see any evidence into this memory leak with pre6 mickey From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 02:42:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22524 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (ppp010-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA22519 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id CAA09519; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:42:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199704170942.CAA09519@superior.mooseriver.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: from Michael Hancock at "Apr 17, 97 05:48:22 pm" To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jgrosch@best.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> > > We sell to distributors and end-users both. What the distributors >> > > do with the product afterwards is their call, not ours. >> > >> > what do they do with them? i have yet to see a store carrying >> > FreeBSD... >> >> I don't know where you live, but they can be found at both Fry's and >> "Weird Stuff" - two popular Bay Area computer outlets. Fry's, > >You can find them at Laox or T-Zone in Akihabara and other places if >you're in Tokyo. > >Regards, > >Mike Hancock > > Perhaps we could use a Web page listing retail outlets known to carry FreeBSD on a regular basis.... Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.1 jgrosch@sirius.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 02:52:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA22871 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdhack@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA22866 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 02:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdhack@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id MAA29533; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:52:46 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199704170952.MAA29533@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-Reply-To: from Ian Kallen at "Apr 16, 97 02:50:55 pm" To: spidaman@well.com (Ian Kallen) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:52:46 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Come to think of it, I've migrated all of our IRIX filesystems to XFS > which is journaled like JFS. A FreeBSD XFS driver would certainly put a > smile on my face. I just mentioned EFS 'case I knew it existed amongst yeah, if it'd be possible to get xfs to freebsd, i'd die happily... but, question is, is it? i can not help my knowledge into that project, should there ever exist such project, but i'm more than happily offering machine or few as a test platform. mickey From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 03:18:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA23740 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caipfs.rutgers.edu (root@caipfs.rutgers.edu [128.6.37.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA23735 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jenolan.caipgeneral (jenolan.rutgers.edu [128.6.111.5]) by caipfs.rutgers.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA01191; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jenolan.caipgeneral (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA03221; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:16:55 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:16:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199704171016.GAA03221@jenolan.caipgeneral> From: "David S. Miller" To: bsdhack@shadows.aeon.net CC: spidaman@well.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199704170952.MAA29533@shadows.aeon.net> (message from mika ruohotie on Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:52:46 +0300 (EET DST)) Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: mika ruohotie Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:52:46 +0300 (EET DST) yeah, if it'd be possible to get xfs to freebsd, i'd die happily... but, question is, is it? i can not help my knowledge into that project, should there ever exist such project, but i'm more than happily offering machine or few as a test platform. XFS is SGI's bread and butter, if you write a freely available version of it you'd: 1) Have to reverse engineer it completely 2) Would have a building full of lawyers on your ass I know because I investigated such a thing ad nauseum while I was hacking Linux at SGI, and that was the final word. ---------------------------------------------//// Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & //// 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s //// ethernet. Beat that! //// -----------------------------------------////__________ o David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 03:32:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA24310 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA24302 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id UAA10419; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:32:08 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:32:07 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Josef Grosch cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you , are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704170942.CAA09519@superior.mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Josef Grosch wrote: > > Perhaps we could use a Web page listing retail outlets known to carry > FreeBSD on a regular basis.... Now *that's* a useful idea. Give me /usr/local/www/data/retailers on freefall and I'll maintain it. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 03:51:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA24847 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA24842 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 03:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id KAA24805; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:49:47 GMT Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:49:47 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: mika ruohotie cc: Ian Kallen , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-Reply-To: <199704170952.MAA29533@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, mika ruohotie wrote: > > Come to think of it, I've migrated all of our IRIX filesystems to XFS > > which is journaled like JFS. A FreeBSD XFS driver would certainly put a > > smile on my face. I just mentioned EFS 'case I knew it existed amongst > > yeah, if it'd be possible to get xfs to freebsd, i'd die happily... but, > question is, is it? > > i can not help my knowledge into that project, should there ever exist such > project, but i'm more than happily offering machine or few as a test platform. XFS is like a 100,000 lines of code according to some recent postings by SGI engineers on USENET, it would be a pretty big effort even for SGI to do a port. If they could make money on it, Veritas' would be a possibility. I only say this because they are somewhat OS vendor neutral. They support UnixWare, Solaris and others. It would be a heavy porting job though, 4.4BSD vfs/vnode interfaces and semantics are pretty different. I think it's more realistic to look at what can be done with John Heidemann's complexity conquering stackable vnode stuff and go from there. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 05:37:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA28918 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [206.28.134.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA28913 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [206.28.134.6]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29421; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10495; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:37:08 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: jbryant@tfs.net cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD availability In-Reply-To: <199704170215.VAA15005@argus> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've been rather fortunate here in Boston, Massachusetts (USA). There are a number of computer stores and bookstores in the area, and at least a couple sell Linux and FreeBSD along with other suppoting utilities (e.g., various Motif implementations, GNU utilities, C source, etc.). I think that's because we have an expanding professional computing industry. More importantly, this is a college town with too many universities to count; stores have learned how to cater to this market. I just consider myself lucky. :-) Anyway, the CDs on the shelves here sell for between $11 and $20 (US), and since that time, FreeBSD usage has increased. Linux usage has as well, with many hobbyists (like myself) jumping on the bandwagon at this lower-than-mail-order cost. One of my biggest concerns about FreeBSD is that the installation is difficult compared to most Linux distributions. The core team does a great job on the kernel/tools, but the installation seems to be a bit of an afterthought for them. Compare that to Slackware, Red Hat, and Debian which have dedicated teams working on nothing but the installation program. The end result is that even among those I've met who know of FreeBSD and believe it superior to Linux, many choose to go the Linux route. I know many of you consider this a trivial issue, but it would definitely help to extend FreeBSD's reach. Not all of us hack filesystems and write device drivers during lunch. :-) Let me know what you think, K.S. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 05:55:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA29699 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seine.cs.umd.edu (seine.cs.umd.edu [128.8.128.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA29691 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 05:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by seine.cs.umd.edu (8.8.5/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id IAA04293; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:54:39 -0400 (EDT) From: rohit@cs.umd.edu (Rohit Dube) Message-Id: <199704171254.IAA04293@seine.cs.umd.edu> To: nrajara@siue.edu Subject: Re: mrouted question (fwd) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, rohit@cs.umd.edu Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Have you tried running mrouted with the debug options (-d3)? That might give give you a clue as to what is going on. What version of FreeBSD and mrouted are you using? --rohit. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 06:00:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA00186 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA00178 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA26833; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:00:37 +0100 (BST) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:00:37 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Brian Tao cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: availability of 100Mb ethernet drivers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 9 Apr 1997, Brian Tao wrote: > On Tue, 8 Apr 1997, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > > fxp, which is the driver for the PCI Intel EtherExpress Pro/100. We use > > them here at the job and they seem to work pretty nicely. > > I think the vx driver also supports 100 Mbps operation, although I > haven't tried it myself (I have a 3com 3C900 10/100Mbps controller, > but on a 10 Mbps LAN). I tried it. It gives appalling performance (50k/sec) on a 3c905. I can test any fixes in this area since I still have the 3com card sitting on my desk but I don't particularly want to hack on this driver. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 07:10:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA03058 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA03043 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id GAA29809; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:48:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704171348.GAA29809@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: floppy disks To: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:48:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <335593F3.167EB0E7@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> from "Jim Durham" at Apr 16, 97 11:07:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > (My old CP/M box was an Altair with Persci 8 inchers and a Tarbell > > > controller.) > > > > Did you decode the Tarbell format message in Isao Tomita's rendition > > of Musorgsky's "Pictures At An Exhibition" from the piece "Dance Of > > Chicks In their Shells"? > > > > Just curious... > > Hmmmm... I like that work, but I'm more partial to the "Great Gates > at Kiev". (Gee...is Bill from Russia?). (I know, it's "Gate", but I > needed some "poetic license".) My favorite thing about that particular piece is that it was used as background music for a bank commercial, and they spent the whole voiceover talking about how "American" the bank was, and how, if you were really a "real American", you'd probably rush right out and deposit all your money there. All backed by the music of a Russian composer... I nearly fell off my chair laughing the first time I saw it, and I had to explain to the other people in Arby's why it was funny so that they didn't think I was a loon. > Anyhow, no..I have the Herbert Von Karajan/Philharmonia version, so no.. > should I dig it up? Well, it's nifty in its own right, if you like synthesizer music; I don't know how well the tarbell data would come over off the CD, actually; I had some problems with the direct-disk recording (vinyl top end recording technology) I have back when I had the equipment to do tarbell... so with it mangled onto a CD, there's probably no chance. Basically, I asked because I didn't get the whole thing, only pieces. 8-(. Emerson, Lake, and Palmer also do a good version (but no tarbell message). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 07:35:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA04501 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04496 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12787; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:35:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:35:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704171435.IAA12787@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Doug White Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, Samuel Lam Subject: Re: Solution for 3COM 3C589D PCMCIA Ethernet card problem (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Subject: Solution for 3COM 3C589D PCMCIA Ethernet card problem > > For those with 3C589*D* cards and want to use the "ep" driver > instead of PAO, I have found the problem. Did you mean to say the 'zp' driver above? I know that folks have used the ep0 device in 2.2 and it's worked. > The EEPROM used inside > the 3C589D seems to be slower than those used in the 3C589C and > older cards, and the DELAY(1000) in read_eeprom_data() isn't long > enough any more. > > Increasing the delay to 1000000 (brute force) works, and some lower > values would likely work as well, but I didn't have time to do a > binary search for the new boundary. I've commited code to -current to if_zp.c to bump up the value, to see if it helps. > A better fix would be to make read_eeprom_data() call f_is_eeprom_busy() > after the DELAY(1000). Agreed, but I have a crappy connection, and don't have time to review the code to come up with a correct fix. Since the zp device is going away at some point, I didn't think spending alot of time fixing it was worthwhile. Thanks! Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 07:45:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05011 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05001 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) id QAA03128; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:43:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Eivind Eklund Message-Id: <199704171443.QAA03128@nic.follonett.no> Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:43:46 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704171016.GAA03221@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at "Apr 17, 97 06:16:55 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > XFS is SGI's bread and butter, if you write a freely available version > of it you'd: > > 1) Have to reverse engineer it completely > 2) Would have a building full of lawyers on your ass > > I know because I investigated such a thing ad nauseum while I was > hacking Linux at SGI, and that was the final word. Somebody from europe could do it. I at least know that I'm not prevented from reverse-engineering as long as I don't use the actual code. (I don't think I have the time for that project, but I wouldn't have a legal problem) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 07:47:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05085 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05076 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem07.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.37]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13471; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:46:39 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33565265.48AA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:40:05 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Hancock CC: Aaron Smith , Terry Lambert , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Hancock wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > > > My proposal is as follows. > > 1) Since it's not clear anyone, other than Terry, wants the changes now, > > we should give a time to work on other things, including some code John > > Heidemann offered on the filesystems list. > > John H. is packaging some utok stuff for me written for SunOS for use in > out of kernel development. We might have to do a custom ktou and > transport layer to use it. They used NFS for the transport layer in their > Ficus project, but it depends on a userland NFS server to work. > Yes, I was following this thread on the fs list, but it abruptly disappeared (as the rest of the list :-) ?), as John Heidemann didn't reply publicly. > We will also have to do some kernel api emulation. I'll have to talk to > John Dyson and others to see if that is even feasible for all the calls > the fs code needs to make. I didn't know about that, he said he had replaced the SUN specific things...are the additional APIs SYSV-like ? FreeBSD 3.0 is turning out to be very sysv like this days. Pedro. > > Regards, > > Mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 07:50:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05232 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05221 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA12848; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:50:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:50:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704171450.IAA12848@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <4626.861257826@time.cdrom.com> References: <199704170533.AAA15351@argus> <4626.861257826@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > what do they do with them? i have yet to see a store carrying > > FreeBSD... > > I don't know where you live, but they can be found at both Fry's and > "Weird Stuff" - two popular Bay Area computer outlets. I'll have to chime in here and say that *few* places carry FreeBSD, as compared to Linux. Most 'normal' (non-technical) bookstores carry Linux, but *none* carry FreeBSD. Heck, I can buy a Linux book here in Montana. > > at least go back and read last night's list... and you must admit... > > i am right about the exposure/distribution factor, maybe walnut creek > > needs to get some distributors serious about getting the disks out on > > the shelves... > > They are serious and they are trying, but Rome wasn't built in a day This is my take. I have felt that FreeBSD has been the 'turtle' of the free OS market. Slowly but surely it's been gaining exposure *and* market share in spite of the prescense of other solutions. We are better off today than we were two years ago in spite of the fact that it *could* have become irrelevant. I would like to see it on more bookshelves, but if it doesn't happen I'll assume Jordan has some grand scheme for why it's not there, because up till now it's been working. :) :) Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 07:57:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA05551 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05545 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00595; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:57:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:57:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199704171457.JAA00595@plains.nodak.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: optical drives Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk With the media in the machine on boot, I can see that od_get_parms() can determine the geometry. in fact it is used to create a disklabel. od_open() calls dsopen() calls dsinit() which calls check_part(). eventhough dsinit() has a label with the correct geometery, it is looking to verify the geometry by checking the DOS partitions, but optial drives don't have partitions (?) and we get 0 for the value of the sector per cylinder. check_part() does not check to see if the secpercyl is zero before doing an integer divide. This zero value for secpercyl causes the panic. The optical drive did not work with the DOS fdisk. I do not know if this means optical media act like diskettes and do not have DOS partitions or fdisk is brain dead. Jim Bryant showed that his optical acts like a drive: > (ahc0:1:0): "IBM MTA-3230TC2210!B 0" type 0 removable SCSI 2 > sd1(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 217MB (446325 512 byte sectors) > sd1(ahc0:1:0): with 17934 cyls, 1 heads, and an average 24 sectors/track notice his optical responses as a type 0 device, the drive I was working with responds as a type 7 SCSI device: (ahc0:2:0): "MATSHITA PD-1 LF-1000 A106" type 7 removable SCSI 2 634MB (1298496 512 byte sectors) ***od0(ahc0:2:0): Optical sctr = 1298496 dsct = 32 hds = 64 (ahc0:2:1): "MATSHITA PD-1 LF-1000 A106" type 5 removable SCSI 2 cd0(ahc0:2:1): CD-ROM cd0(ahc0:2:1): NOT READY asc:3a,0 Medium not present I added the line starting with *** to get_parms to make sure the geometry about the media was being reported. A SCSI type 7 needs to use od0, and that results in the panic anytime an application does an open on the device. --mark. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 08:20:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA08876 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyger.inna.net (root@tyger.inna.net [206.151.66.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08831 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dolphin.inna.net (jamie@dolphin.inna.net [206.151.66.2]) by tyger.inna.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA19021; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:31:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Nags Rajaraman cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mrouted question (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Make sure you have multicast routing in your kernel. If you know you have that, start mrouted with the -d flag, and see what the uotput on that is. It should tell you why it's not starting. Go through syslog also, you might find something in there. On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Nags Rajaraman wrote: > Hi! > > I couldn't get mrouted to start up on my FreeBSD machine. I tried looking at > the man page, but with no success. I checked the mrouted.pid file, but it is not > getting created. When I give mrouted in the background, it immediately gives > the message "Done" and exits. > > I've setup my /etc/mrouted.conf file as follows: > > tunnel 146.163.133.107 146.163.130.60 metric 1 threshold 1 > tunnel 146.163.133.107 146.163.5.10 metric 1 threshold 1 > > Could anybody provide any inputs on this? > > Thanks, > > Nags > > Jamie Bowden Network Administrator, TBI Ltd. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 08:57:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA15141 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA15136 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (perlsta@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA11586; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:56:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:56:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Hans Zuidam cc: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Apparent bug in /dev/spkr driver (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199704170755.JAA12959@truk.brandinnovators.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Hans Zuidam wrote: > > The problem seems to have to do with a race condition and/or with kernel > > memory allocation. I'm not terribly familiar with BSD kernel programming, > > and there's no documentation on the full implications of some items in the > > driver code, so I'm not sure how to pinpoint the problem. > > > > Can someone help to identify the source of the problem and a fix for it? > Maybe this helps... > > In the speaker driver it does: > > n = uio->uio_resid; > cp = spkr_inbuf->b_un.b_addr; > if (!(error = uiomove(cp, n, uio))) > playstring(cp, n); > > According to a discussion I had with Bruce Evans because of a > similar problem in a home grown driver, it seems that uiomove() > can sleep and that therefore another uiomove() may mess up the > driver's buffers. The speaker driver should lock its buffer before > doing the uiomove(). Actually, many drivers do not lock their private > I/O buffers before uiomove()-ing. Hope this helps a bit. I'm very new to kernel programming (my first time) but would a patch baisically to set a flag to see if the deivce is busy and then queuing up requests until the sleep is done? i'm worrired though, does the code for this driver run until completion? no right? so could i have an outer loop there that loops until the bufferes that i create are eaten up by the innner loop that you posted? or should i just leave it to the experts? i would really like to help though. Al perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 09:14:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA17898 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17887 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wHtnF-0003wR-00; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:12:17 -0600 To: Adrian Chadd Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Darren Reed , "David S. Miller" , fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:52:35 +0800." References: Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:12:17 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Adrian Chadd writes: : They have no problems running FreeBSD on the box seperating this nice : critical network from the rest of the internet :) It handles all their : email and web (and soon will become three boxes, one for lot of virtual : webserving, one for email and one as a firewall). : : Just another place where FreeBSD is used. :) : Sounds just like a WhistleJet, only w/o the custom hardware. A lot of places will be able to say that if Whistle is successful. They have a really cool box. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 09:19:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA18113 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA18107 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wHtsa-0003wf-00; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:17:48 -0600 To: osmanb@acm.org Subject: Re: First place. Cc: drew@sml.co.jp, Justin Wolf , "'cmcurtin@research.megasoft.com'" , Golan Klinger , "rsacrack@vex.net" , "hackers@freebsd.org" , "deschall@gatekeeper.megasoft.com" In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:20:55 EDT." <3354C427.8D76BBFA@rpi.edu> References: <3354C427.8D76BBFA@rpi.edu> <199704160738.QAA02522@mx.sml.co.jp> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:17:47 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <3354C427.8D76BBFA@rpi.edu> "Brian T. Osman" writes: : computers! That is NOTHING! NOTHING! Think about the cmoputing power : that : Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Motorola, Apple, anyone could get together!!! : They just don't want to right now, because it would only prove that they : are in a position to conduct industrial espionage. I have been hearing for years about multiple cpu designs going on at various government labs. I recall that Sandia had an experimental Pentium MP machine with either 1,000 or 10,000 processors (my memory is failing me) in it with private and shared memory for each (it is hard to tell for sure, cine it was a popular press report). This key thing is just the ticket for something like this. The picture they had in the paper showed a "rack" sized box (that is 19"wide, by 8' tall by about 30-40" deep) full of backplanes and such. I don't know how much that press report got right, but it does make you think. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 09:22:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA18408 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA18403 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wHtxB-0003wy-00; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:22:33 -0600 To: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. Cc: Jaye Mathisen , hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:36:07 EDT." <1.5.4.32.19970416123607.006e0f38@cybercom.net> References: <1.5.4.32.19970416123607.006e0f38@cybercom.net> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:22:33 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <1.5.4.32.19970416123607.006e0f38@cybercom.net> The Classiest Man Alive writes: : Not to fan the flames, but has anyone ever considered converting Slackware's : installation program to FreeBSD. Though I prefer FreeBSD (slightly) to : Linux, I must admit that I find Slackware much easier to install coming from : my non-technical standpoint. (Which probably has most of you asking why I'm : on the list anyway.) Slackware usually sets up good defaults based on the : input from the menu-driven installation, whereas FreeBSD requires more : tweaking after installation. That is good feedback. Here is some more: I recently installed Linux from some distribution (red hat? caldera?? I don't recall). They had a feature that I thought was pretty cool. They showed the disk usage at all times (just before the package was added). This leads to two comments: 1) It would be cool if you could fit as many as possible of the disks on the status screen. A simple % bar chart would be nice. 2) Try to figure out to see if you really have enough disk space to do the install. I've had several installs fail because of insufficient disk space. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 09:34:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19198 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19155; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:34:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704171634.JAA19155@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Mail exploders... To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19970416171351.05581@right.PCS> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Apr 16, 97 05:13:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > On a related note, it seems like freefall has a long mail queue time; it > takes anywhere from 40 minutes to over an hour before the message actually > goes out. Here's a couple of headers: > [snip] the delay varies a good bit. here is today's data from today's maillogs (starting Apr 17 02:00:16, ending Apr 17 09:28:38). the delay was most messages was acceptable. 49100 messages delayed 0 minutes 3863 messages delayed 1 minutes 214 messages delayed 2 minutes 175 messages delayed 3 minutes 150 messages delayed 4 minutes 140 messages delayed 5 minutes 169 messages delayed 6 minutes 179 messages delayed 7 minutes 161 messages delayed 8 minutes 102 messages delayed 9 minutes 130 messages delayed 10 minutes 150 messages delayed 11 minutes 136 messages delayed 12 minutes 184 messages delayed 13 minutes 192 messages delayed 14 minutes 172 messages delayed 15 minutes 193 messages delayed 16 minutes 150 messages delayed 17 minutes 140 messages delayed 18 minutes 183 messages delayed 19 minutes 191 messages delayed 20 minutes 218 messages delayed 21 minutes 219 messages delayed 22 minutes 194 messages delayed 23 minutes 170 messages delayed 24 minutes 179 messages delayed 25 minutes 190 messages delayed 26 minutes 184 messages delayed 27 minutes 147 messages delayed 28 minutes 161 messages delayed 29 minutes 156 messages delayed 30 minutes 151 messages delayed 31 minutes 157 messages delayed 32 minutes 126 messages delayed 33 minutes 150 messages delayed 34 minutes 141 messages delayed 35 minutes 119 messages delayed 36 minutes 118 messages delayed 37 minutes 100 messages delayed 38 minutes 101 messages delayed 39 minutes 136 messages delayed 40 minutes 110 messages delayed 41 minutes 94 messages delayed 42 minutes 77 messages delayed 43 minutes 117 messages delayed 44 minutes 98 messages delayed 45 minutes 91 messages delayed 46 minutes 64 messages delayed 47 minutes 78 messages delayed 48 minutes 57 messages delayed 49 minutes 61 messages delayed 50 minutes 72 messages delayed 51 minutes 27 messages delayed 52 minutes 29 messages delayed 53 minutes 30 messages delayed 54 minutes 20 messages delayed 55 minutes 15 messages delayed 56 minutes 12 messages delayed 57 minutes 20 messages delayed 58 minutes 18 messages delayed 59 minutes 14 messages delayed 60 minutes 18 messages delayed 61 minutes 8 messages delayed 62 minutes 6 messages delayed 63 minutes 14 messages delayed 64 minutes 15 messages delayed 65 minutes 7 messages delayed 66 minutes 7 messages delayed 67 minutes 10 messages delayed 68 minutes 27 messages delayed 69 minutes 7 messages delayed 70 minutes 5 messages delayed 71 minutes 5 messages delayed 72 minutes 4 messages delayed 73 minutes 11 messages delayed 74 minutes 6 messages delayed 75 minutes 9 messages delayed 76 minutes 19 messages delayed 77 minutes 12 messages delayed 78 minutes 6 messages delayed 79 minutes 9 messages delayed 80 minutes 10 messages delayed 81 minutes 7 messages delayed 82 minutes 6 messages delayed 83 minutes 6 messages delayed 84 minutes 10 messages delayed 85 minutes 5 messages delayed 86 minutes 6 messages delayed 87 minutes 11 messages delayed 88 minutes 6 messages delayed 89 minutes 7 messages delayed 90 minutes 11 messages delayed 91 minutes 3 messages delayed 92 minutes 5 messages delayed 93 minutes 27 messages delayed 94 minutes 6 messages delayed 95 minutes 4 messages delayed 96 minutes 6 messages delayed 97 minutes 7 messages delayed 98 minutes 11 messages delayed 99 minutes 5 messages delayed 100 minutes 5 messages delayed 101 minutes 5 messages delayed 102 minutes 8 messages delayed 103 minutes 13 messages delayed 104 minutes 9 messages delayed 105 minutes 7 messages delayed 106 minutes 3 messages delayed 107 minutes 4 messages delayed 109 minutes 3 messages delayed 110 minutes 2 messages delayed 111 minutes 2 messages delayed 112 minutes 2 messages delayed 113 minutes 6 messages delayed 114 minutes 2 messages delayed 115 minutes 1 messages delayed 116 minutes 1 messages delayed 117 minutes 2 messages delayed 118 minutes 7 messages delayed 119 minutes 4 messages delayed 120 minutes 3 messages delayed 121 minutes 4 messages delayed 122 minutes 8 messages delayed 124 minutes 5 messages delayed 125 minutes 7 messages delayed 126 minutes 1 messages delayed 127 minutes 4 messages delayed 128 minutes 3 messages delayed 129 minutes 3 messages delayed 130 minutes 1 messages delayed 131 minutes 5 messages delayed 133 minutes 1 messages delayed 135 minutes 2 messages delayed 136 minutes 2 messages delayed 137 minutes 2 messages delayed 138 minutes 5 messages delayed 139 minutes 5 messages delayed 140 minutes 15 messages delayed 141 minutes 3 messages delayed 144 minutes 3 messages delayed 145 minutes 3 messages delayed 147 minutes 1 messages delayed 150 minutes 1 messages delayed 151 minutes 4 messages delayed 152 minutes 2 messages delayed 154 minutes 3 messages delayed 155 minutes 2 messages delayed 156 minutes 1 messages delayed 157 minutes 1 messages delayed 158 minutes 6 messages delayed 160 minutes 2 messages delayed 161 minutes 2 messages delayed 162 minutes 3 messages delayed 163 minutes 2 messages delayed 164 minutes 3 messages delayed 165 minutes 10 messages delayed 166 minutes 3 messages delayed 167 minutes 1 messages delayed 168 minutes 1 messages delayed 169 minutes 10 messages delayed 170 minutes 3 messages delayed 172 minutes 2 messages delayed 173 minutes 2 messages delayed 175 minutes 1 messages delayed 176 minutes 1 messages delayed 178 minutes 1 messages delayed 181 minutes 1 messages delayed 182 minutes 1 messages delayed 183 minutes 1 messages delayed 184 minutes 1 messages delayed 186 minutes 1 messages delayed 189 minutes 2 messages delayed 191 minutes 1 messages delayed 193 minutes 1 messages delayed 194 minutes 2 messages delayed 195 minutes 1 messages delayed 196 minutes 3 messages delayed 197 minutes 3 messages delayed 198 minutes 1 messages delayed 199 minutes 3 messages delayed 200 minutes 1 messages delayed 201 minutes 2 messages delayed 202 minutes 1 messages delayed 203 minutes 2 messages delayed 204 minutes 1 messages delayed 205 minutes 4 messages delayed 206 minutes 1 messages delayed 209 minutes 9 messages delayed 210 minutes 1 messages delayed 212 minutes 4 messages delayed 213 minutes 4 messages delayed 214 minutes 1 messages delayed 215 minutes 2 messages delayed 217 minutes 4 messages delayed 218 minutes 1 messages delayed 219 minutes 1 messages delayed 220 minutes 5 messages delayed 223 minutes 1 messages delayed 224 minutes 1 messages delayed 227 minutes 1 messages delayed 228 minutes 6 messages delayed 229 minutes 1 messages delayed 230 minutes 3 messages delayed 231 minutes 3 messages delayed 232 minutes 1 messages delayed 233 minutes 1 messages delayed 234 minutes 1 messages delayed 235 minutes 1 messages delayed 237 minutes 2 messages delayed 238 minutes 1 messages delayed 241 minutes 2 messages delayed 242 minutes 6 messages delayed 243 minutes 1 messages delayed 244 minutes 1 messages delayed 245 minutes 1 messages delayed 246 minutes 1 messages delayed 247 minutes 1 messages delayed 251 minutes 1 messages delayed 252 minutes 2 messages delayed 253 minutes 1 messages delayed 255 minutes 1 messages delayed 256 minutes 2 messages delayed 258 minutes 2 messages delayed 260 minutes 2 messages delayed 261 minutes 1 messages delayed 262 minutes 1 messages delayed 263 minutes 1 messages delayed 265 minutes 6 messages delayed 267 minutes 2 messages delayed 268 minutes 2 messages delayed 269 minutes 1 messages delayed 270 minutes 1 messages delayed 271 minutes 1 messages delayed 272 minutes 1 messages delayed 274 minutes 1 messages delayed 276 minutes 1 messages delayed 278 minutes 3 messages delayed 280 minutes 1 messages delayed 281 minutes 3 messages delayed 282 minutes 1 messages delayed 283 minutes 1 messages delayed 284 minutes 1 messages delayed 285 minutes 1 messages delayed 287 minutes 1 messages delayed 292 minutes 1 messages delayed 293 minutes 1 messages delayed 295 minutes 1 messages delayed 296 minutes 1 messages delayed 297 minutes 2 messages delayed 298 minutes 2 messages delayed 302 minutes 1 messages delayed 303 minutes 1 messages delayed 304 minutes 2 messages delayed 305 minutes 1 messages delayed 308 minutes 1 messages delayed 309 minutes 1 messages delayed 316 minutes 1 messages delayed 320 minutes 2 messages delayed 321 minutes 2 messages delayed 322 minutes 1 messages delayed 324 minutes 2 messages delayed 325 minutes 1 messages delayed 326 minutes 1 messages delayed 331 minutes 1 messages delayed 334 minutes 1 messages delayed 336 minutes 1 messages delayed 337 minutes 1 messages delayed 338 minutes 1 messages delayed 344 minutes 1 messages delayed 349 minutes 1 messages delayed 352 minutes 1 messages delayed 355 minutes 1 messages delayed 357 minutes 2 messages delayed 358 minutes 1 messages delayed 361 minutes 1 messages delayed 364 minutes 1 messages delayed 365 minutes 1 messages delayed 375 minutes 1 messages delayed 376 minutes 1 messages delayed 377 minutes 1 messages delayed 384 minutes 1 messages delayed 386 minutes 2 messages delayed 390 minutes 1 messages delayed 392 minutes 1 messages delayed 393 minutes 1 messages delayed 404 minutes 1 messages delayed 412 minutes 1 messages delayed 416 minutes 1 messages delayed 427 minutes 1 messages delayed 431 minutes 1 messages delayed 432 minutes 1 messages delayed 441 minutes 1 messages delayed 446 minutes 1 messages delayed 449 minutes 1 messages delayed 463 minutes 1 messages delayed 465 minutes 1 messages delayed 466 minutes 1 messages delayed 471 minutes 1 messages delayed 472 minutes 1 messages delayed 474 minutes 1 messages delayed 496 minutes 1 messages delayed 524 minutes 1 messages delayed 551 minutes 1 messages delayed 578 minutes 1 messages delayed 583 minutes 1 messages delayed 612 minutes 1 messages delayed 623 minutes 1 messages delayed 652 minutes 1 messages delayed 659 minutes 1 messages delayed 663 minutes 1 messages delayed 691 minutes 1 messages delayed 700 minutes 1 messages delayed 702 minutes 1 messages delayed 731 minutes 1 messages delayed 740 minutes 1 messages delayed 742 minutes 1 messages delayed 771 minutes 1 messages delayed 773 minutes 1 messages delayed 780 minutes 1 messages delayed 802 minutes 1 messages delayed 813 minutes 1 messages delayed 867 minutes 1 messages delayed 901 minutes 1 messages delayed 941 minutes 1 messages delayed 942 minutes 1 messages delayed 980 minutes 1 messages delayed 982 minutes 1 messages delayed 1023 minutes 1 messages delayed 1074 minutes 1 messages delayed 1128 minutes 1 messages delayed 1162 minutes 1 messages delayed 1202 minutes 1 messages delayed 1241 minutes 1 messages delayed 1281 minutes 1 messages delayed 1321 minutes 1 messages delayed 1352 minutes hmm.....i really should re-write this script to use a log scale for delay ;) jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--4.4BSD Unix for PC clones, source included. http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 09:49:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20061 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cold.org (cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20052 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by cold.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA05342 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:49:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:49:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Gillespie To: freebsd-hackers@freeBSD.org Subject: auto kernel config program (doconfig) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, I have hacked up an initial 'doconfig' which I just used and it works. Go ahead, grab it, beat it up, give me suggestions, check my code (it was a quickie :b ) I did do my best to keep the same 'feel' as Digital Unix's "doconfig". Anybody else know of other OS's that use a 'doconfig'? Let me know what it needs. I also include 'autokernconf' which is called by 'doconfig' in the right situation. This program will startup an 'interactive' kernel config program (sorta like the perl Configure--it'll ask you a bunch of questions you have no clue about so most of the time you'll just use the defaults). However, for now, it just does a sed on the GENERIC kernel config and changes the ident. I already have a partially expanded autokernconf, but if anybody else has started on something of this sort perhaps we can collaborate? My experience with what each option means is rather limited... This aside.. You can get this alpha alpha 'doconfig' and 'autokernconf' at: ftp://ftp.cold.org/pub/brandon/doconfig.tar.gz After much internal strife I did end up coding it in perl4, and I must say..perl4 sucks :) -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 09:53:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20327 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20313; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704171653.JAA20313@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4146.861250482@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 16, 97 09:14:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > i'll add another few items to my list from last night... > > > > 1). chop the price in half to $19.95. > > It wouldn't help. This would reduce FreeBSD to the price of the > shovelware CDs, and Walnut Creek CDROM has done quite a bit of price > experimentation here. Every CD they've discounted this steeply has > suffered a _decline_ in sales rather than what you'd expect. There is > some odd aspect of human nature which works against making things too > cheap - the product suddenly becomes equated with "junk" or something. it called "buy-in". the scenario runs like this (bare with me and i wont mentions "transitive closure"). item costs a lot. person cant tell if its better or worse than another item. person buys item. item must be good (else person looks like fool). person recommentds item to all his friends. loop if it costs more it MUST be better. else how could they stay in business, right? right! jmb From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 09:54:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20425 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA20382; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA21618; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:39:25 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:39:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Yonny Cardenas To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Snmp in FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I want make work snmp whit FreeBSD. How I can to consult MIB information of a router ( FreeBSD or Cisco )? Exist a program for do it ? Thanks. YONNY CARDENAS B. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 09:59:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20800 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20787; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:58:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704171658.JAA20787@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970417013405.00ba9290@sentex.net> from "Mike Tancsa" at Apr 17, 97 01:34:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Tancsa wrote: > > some market segments would be more prone to this than others. A lot of our > really big corp customers who look to expand their net presence ask us for > recommendations. When we tell them about FreeBSD they look at us funny > when we tell them its free... Typically, their response is "You mean I am > going to trust my million dollar a week business to some free software ? No > way! Whats the number for SUN again ?" I suppose however, if we told them > FreeBSD was in fact $2000, plus another $1000 a year for fixes, they would create a line item on your invoices: "FreeBSD software and installation $3,000" they will love you for it. remember these people consider golf a sport (its a skill ;) and tax evasion a moral duty ("only little people play taxes"). these are different, respect that ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 10:04:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA21287 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cold.org (cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21278 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by cold.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA05360 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:04:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:04:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Brandon Gillespie To: freebsd-hackers@freeBSD.org Subject: default device names.. rc interface suggestion Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, I don't think this got out the first time I sent it (my ethernet cable has been giving me problems--and I never received back a copy), so I'm sending it again. Sorry for the redundancy, if people get redundancy.. ------------------------------------------- Just a thought, which I think would help simplify things a touch for people administrating many different FreeBSD boxes (which I do). Basically, have /etc/devices, which is simply a map of what 'standard' devices are actually what 'real' devices, and have the VERY FIRST action of /etc/rc be to softlink all of the standard devices to the real devices? The file could be something simple like: video ttyv0 kbd ttyv0 net ed0 mouse ttyd1 [...] Then just drop the code at the top of /etc/rc which does the softlinks. The advantages of this, is that the remaining startup scripts executed could then use these 'standard' devices--so changes which must be made are kept to a minimum. In general this is not a big deal--as most people only use one or two systems. However, where I work we've "grown" quite a few FreeBSD boxes, and all have different hardware. Administrating all of them is annoying at times, as some have their ethernet device at ed0, others off de0, etc--some have serial mice, others bus, one has a PS2 mouse. I doubt most interfaces would change much, and in general something like this wouldn't be used often--but it would be VERY nice in that it would provide an abstraction layer which would help in system administration. Furthermore, it would finally shutup the linux group who whine because FreeBSD doesn't have /dev/mouse 8b Just some thoughts -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 10:13:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA21798 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elwood.pionet.net (ELWOOD.pionet.net [199.120.116.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21790 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pm4_72.pionet.net by elwood.pionet.net (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/25Oct96-0835PM) id AA03715; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:15:35 -0500 Message-Id: <33564A75.476@pionet.net> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:06:13 -0400 From: Tyson Boellstorff X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (OS/2; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: availability of 100Mb ethernet drivers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Doug Rabson wrote: > I think the vx driver also supports 100 Mbps operation, although I > haven't tried it myself (I have a 3com 3C900 10/100Mbps controller, > but on a 10 Mbps LAN). I tried it. It gives appalling performance (50k/sec) on a 3c905. I can test any fixes in this area since I still have the 3com card sitting on my desk but I don't particularly want to hack on this driver. Before you go to all that work: 1) What is your BIOS version? It makes a BIG difference with this card. 2) Any 10 MB equipment on your LAN? Try it on a straight 100 MB segment, and see if it's a switching problem. 3) All else fails, if you have a different motherboard, try it. I've seen results that way, but no pattern to it. 4) Try another of the same card. Some switch better. 5) Try downloading & running the latest card configuration utility. I've heard that it makes a difference. 6) Here are stats on it on an Intel Thor motherboard, 1.00.03.CN0T BIOS (take with a grain of salt: this was a Win 95 client talking to Solaris 2.5.1 host, ran at midnight, so no traffic to speak of): Thor 03 BIOS, get, approx 24 sec, 70 mb file, 100 mb segment. ZDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD? 3 3Com SuperStack II Port Statistics 3 CDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD4 3 Unit ID: 2 Port ID: 4 3 3 Media Type: Twisted Pair (100BASE-TX) 3 3 3 3 Good Frames: 13465 FCS Errors: 0 3 3 Good Octets: 861804 Alignment Errors: 0 3 3 Unicast Frames: 13464 Short Events: 0 3 3 Multicast Frames: 0 Too Long Frames: 0 3 3 Broadcast Frames: 1 Very Long Events: 0 3 3 Data Rate Mismatches: 0 3 3 Total Collisions: 322 Late Events: 0 3 3 Runt Frames: 0 Total Errors: 0 3 3 AutoPartitions: 0 3 3 3 3 3 3 Source Address Changes: 0 3 3 Last Source Address: 00609793823C 3 3 3 3 CLEAR COUNTERS CANCEL 3 CDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD4 3 3 @DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDY Same card, same system, 10 mb segment, 33 seconds my card, 03 bios, get, 33 sec ZDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD? 3 3Com Switch Port Traffic Statistics 3 CDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD4 3 3 3 Port ID: 15 (10BaseT) 3 3 3 3 Frames Received: 15340 Octets Received: 981760 3 3 Frames Transmitted: 31297 Octets Transmitted: 35812608 3 3 3 3 Multicasts Received: 0 Collisions: 22183 3 3 Broadcasts Received: 0 Fragments: 0 3 3 3 3 Frames Forwarded: 15340 Errors: 0 3 3 Frames Filtered: 0 IFM Count: 0 3 3 3 3 Frame Size Analysis. 3 3 64 Octets: 33 % 256 to 511 Octets: 5 % 3 3 65 to 127 Octets: 0 % 512 to 1023 Octets: 26 % 3 3 128 to 255 Octets 0 % 1024 to 1518 Octets: 36 % 3 3 3 3 CLEAR SCREEN COUNTERS CANCEL 3 CDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD4 3 3 @DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDY From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 10:14:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA21914 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk (wgold.demon.co.uk [158.152.96.124]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21908 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wgold.demon.co.uk by wgold.demon.co.uk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ha001333 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:08:25 +0100 Message-ID: <3355E889.C84@wgold.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:08:25 +0100 From: James Mansion Organization: Westongold Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <3.0.1.32.19970417013405.00ba9290@sentex.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Info: Westongold Ltd: +44 1992 620025 www.westongold.com Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Tancsa wrote: > > At 09:14 PM 4/16/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> i'll add another few items to my list from last night... > >> > >> 1). chop the price in half to $19.95. > > I agree that this price cut seems pointless, but for different reasons I guess. Twnety bucks isn't a lot of money. It might buy you a few burgers, but its no more than a half-decent claret. Big deal. Compared to the commitment to partition hard disks, find 500MB of space for a full install, track the changes, learn the system, not to mention sit there installing and configuring the damn thing, $20 is hardly an obstacle to anyone. $200 is probably a bigger deal, though personally I'd pay it if I thought I was going to get something that worked well (read: decent pthread support and a C++ compiler that understands exceptions and templates well, though that's probably just my personal focus). > Although I agree price and sales dont always inversely correlate, there are > other mitigating factors as well: i.e. the general increase of the people > and companies being on the Internet. I suspect that (and the fact that > BSD/OS an excellent product) had more to do with BSD sales rather than just > people's perception of quality correlating to price. However, I am sure > some market segments would be more prone to this than others. A lot of our > really big corp customers who look to expand their net presence ask us for > recommendations. When we tell them about FreeBSD they look at us funny > when we tell them its free... Typically, their response is "You mean I am > going to trust my million dollar a week business to some free software ? No > way! Whats the number for SUN again ?" I suppose however, if we told them > FreeBSD was in fact $2000, plus another $1000 a year for fixes, they would > probably seriously consider it. However, our smaller business customers I don't think that's why people go with Sun or NT. *I* wouldn't run a business off FreeBSD, but I'd happily run a web site, news server, maybe even router or DNS server, off it. I might even use one for serving the excellent perforce VCS (deserved plug). To me the core aspect of most businesses is data, and (like Linux) FreeBSD doesn't cut it in the DBMS department. If you want business to take, note, you'd be better having a lousy web and news server, and a great database server. And you'd need a growth path beyond uniprocessor Intel, which free UNIXen (including Linux, as far as I'm concerned) don't have now. Trusting a business to NT has nothing to do with router performance, innd performance, apache vs iis performance - and everything to do with SMB file and print performance and SQLServer. Of course, there's more to having a great DBMS than a PostGres port that is 'nearly there', or even a great product from 3 guys in a shed. You *need* the roll-forward/roll-back recovery to work, and you *need* to have confidence that the data doesn't get corrupted, and no simple eval will tell you that, while knowing that the product has been in the field for 5 years already might give some comfort. As an example: I might happily build a system with, say, Solid as the core DBMS. But to sell it, I would probably have to sell it as an anonymous black box turnkey solution - even evangelising about the product is likely to be counter-productive. > are quite open to it. To them, what matters is that it works, is > reasonably priced, and is secure. For them, shaving $20 off the price is > not an issue. > > ---Mike > ********************************************************************** > Mike Tancsa (mike@sentex.net) * To do is to be -- Nietzsche > Sentex Communications Corp, * To be is to do -- Sartre > Cambridge, Ontario * Do be do be do -- Sinatra > (http://www.sentex.net/~mdtancsa) * James From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 10:15:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22024 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22017 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA17594; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704171706.KAA17594@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "David S. Miller" Cc: bsdhack@shadows.aeon.net, spidaman@well.com, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:06:51 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997 06:16:55 -0400 "David S. Miller" wrote: > XFS is SGI's bread and butter, if you write a freely available version > of it you'd: > > 1) Have to reverse engineer it completely > 2) Would have a building full of lawyers on your ass > > I know because I investigated such a thing ad nauseum while I was > hacking Linux at SGI, and that was the final word. So, you read the papers that have been published on it, and implement something that does basically the same thing. You only have to "reverse engineer it completely" if you want them to be compatible (i.e. want to be able to plug a disk from your SGI into your PC or whatever). Personally, I don't care about that too much. ...can you point me to the clause in the license that accompanies the IRIX binary distributions which specifically disallows reverse-engineering? In any case, the notion of a journaled, extent-based file system that uses b+ trees rather than bitmaps is a neat idea, but I wouldn't call it patentable (of course, that doens't mean that SGI hasn't _tried_ to patent it; I don't know if they have or not). But, if they haven't, I don't see how they could possibly stop someone from writing a file system based on the same ideas. (Sure, they could be jerks and generally a PITA, but they couldn't _stop_ you...) Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: 408.866.1912 NAS: M/S 258-6 Work: 415.604.0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: 415.428.6939 From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 10:25:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22881 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA22871 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id DAA06579; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:22:08 +1000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:22:08 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704171722.DAA06579@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, tinguely@plains.nodak.edu Subject: Re: optical drives Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [This should be discussed in a technical mailing list, not -hackers.] >od_open() calls dsopen() calls dsinit() which calls check_part(). > >eventhough dsinit() has a label with the correct geometery, it is >looking to verify the geometry by checking the DOS partitions, >but optial drives don't have partitions (?) and we get 0 for the value >of the sector per cylinder. check_part() does not check to see if the >secpercyl is zero before doing an integer divide. This zero value >for secpercyl causes the panic. You are probably supposed to write a partition table. Otherwise, garbage may be interpreted as a good partition table with wrong offsets and and data at wrong offsets may be written to. A panic is better. It takes special garbage to produce the divide by zero error: - there must be a boot signature 0x55, 0xaa at the end of the MBR - all of the bits in the places that are interpreted as ending sector numbers must be 0 (this gives max_nsectors == 0 and secpercyl == 0) - some of the bits in the places that are interpreted as starting sector, head or cylinder numbers must be nonzero (otherwise, check_part() is not called). This is unusual when the previous 2 conditions are met, so the panic is unusual. Fix: treat the max_nsectors == 0 case as an error. >The optical drive did not work with the DOS fdisk. I do not know if this >means optical media act like diskettes and do not have DOS partitions or >fdisk is brain dead. A partition is just data. Even vn disks can have partitions in FreeBSD. >Jim Bryant showed that his optical acts like a drive: > >> (ahc0:1:0): "IBM MTA-3230TC2210!B 0" type 0 removable SCSI 2 >> sd1(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 217MB (446325 512 byte sectors) >> sd1(ahc0:1:0): with 17934 cyls, 1 heads, and an average 24 sectors/track A very tall drive :-). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 10:36:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23676 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23594; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (yonny@localhost) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA13618; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:37:01 -0500 (COT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:37:01 -0500 (COT) From: Yonny Cardenas To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: questions@freebsd.org Subject: Snmp in FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I want make work snmp whit FreeBSD. How I can do remote SNMP configuration and management on router ( FreeBSD or Cisco ) ? Exist a program for do it ? Thanks. YONNY CARDENAS B. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 11:00:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA24829 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24823 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02326 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:00:06 +0200 (SAT) From: John Hay Message-Id: <199704171800.UAA02326@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: news server and swap usage problem To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD-hackers) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:00:06 +0200 (SAT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I've got a news server with 200MHz Pentium, 128M RAM and 4 x 2G disks. It have 256M swap spread over the four disks. I'm using INN 1.5.1. The machine isn't very busy, with 2 feeds coming in (getting only about 220k articles per day) and seldom more than 25 readers. I had been running 2.2-ALPHA for 3 months with no problems and now for last few weeks it has started to kill innd after a while with the error: "Apr 17 18:04:23 newnews /kernel: swap_pager: out of swap space" So I upgraded to 2.2-stable yesterday, but it did not help. I could not believe that it run out of swap, because normally it only use between 5 and 40M out of the possible 256M, so I configured an extra 128M swapfile with vnconfig. This afternoon it happened again and for the first time I had top running and was looking at it while it happend. The swap usage climed from 2% usage till 100% usage in a matter of minutes, but top did not show who was using it. The machine then practicaly halted for almost an hour before it killed inn and things returned to normal. Have anybody seen something like this before? ========== last pid: 9252; load averages: 0.67, 0.50, 0.39 18:04:27 31 processes: 3 running, 28 sleeping CPU states: 9.2% user, 0.6% nice, 16.8% system, 1.6% interrupt, 71.9% idle Mem: 61M Active, 34M Inact, 19M Wired, 8720K Cache, 8345K Buf, 616K Free Swap: 381M Total, 381M Used, 100K Free, 100% Inuse, 164K In, 4596K Out PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 181 news 31 0 64M 26M RUN 39:06 15.75% 15.75% innd 198 news 2 4 720K 628K select 3:46 1.26% 1.26% innfeed 9252 news 2 4 452K 1428K select 0:00 1.62% 0.69% nnrpd 193 jhay 18 0 640K 0K pause 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 9232 jhay 18 0 640K 0K pause 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 199 root 18 0 436K 0K pause 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 112 root 18 0 332K 0K pause 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 9155 news 18 0 168K 0K pause 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 184 news 10 0 504K 0K wait 0:11 0.00% 0.00% 182 news 10 0 484K 0K wait 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 1 root 10 0 372K 0K wait 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 202 root 3 0 664K 0K ttyin 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 189 root 3 0 164K 0K ttyin 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 190 root 3 0 164K 0K ttyin 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 188 root 3 0 164K 0K ttyin 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 9230 root 2 0 360K 248K select 0:00 0.00% 0.00% sshd 8880 news 2 4 464K 236K select 0:00 0.00% 0.00% nnrpd 76 root 2 0 204K 236K select 0:02 0.00% 0.00% syslogd 85 root 2 -12 416K 228K select 0:02 0.00% 0.00% xntpd 143 root 2 0 576K 120K select 0:02 0.00% 0.00% snmpd 116 root 2 0 528K 0K accept 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 8439 news 2 4 468K 0K select 0:01 0.00% 0.00% 8460 news 2 4 464K 0K select 0:01 0.00% 0.00% 7233 news 2 4 460K 0K select 0:01 0.00% 0.00% 8454 news 2 4 460K 0K select 0:02 0.00% 0.00% 7767 news 2 4 456K 0K select 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 191 root 2 0 348K 0K select 0:09 0.00% 0.00% 150 root 2 0 332K 0K accept 0:06 0.00% 0.00% 110 root 2 0 192K 0K select 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 196 news 38 4 152K 120K RUN 1:23 0.00% 0.00% overchan 9238 jhay 28 0 312K 396K RUN 0:01 0.00% 0.00% top 150 root 2 0 332K 0K accept 0:06 0.00% 0.00% 110 root 2 0 192K 0K select 0:00 0.00% 0.00% 196 news 38 4 152K 120K RUN 1:23 0.00% 0.00% overchan 9238 jhay 28 0 312K 396K RUN 0:01 0.00% 0.00% top ======== John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 11:05:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25199 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25193 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26141; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:04:50 -0700 (PDT) From: The Devil Himself To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Mike Tancsa , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704171658.JAA20787@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > create a line item on your invoices: > > "FreeBSD software and installation $3,000" > > they will love you for it. remember these people consider > golf a sport (its a skill ;) and tax evasion a moral duty > ("only little people play taxes"). > these are different, respect that ;) > jmb Just to eliminate all hint of 'shareware' make that 'BSD ...' ;) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* |FreeBSD is good. FreeBSD is our friend. UNIX is our god.| *Micro$oft is bad. Micro$oft causes problems.* |MicroBSD??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!| |"I hate quotes in signature files" :-} MAtthew Fuller| *fullermd@narcissus.ml.org FreeBSD junkie* |http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd Westminster College| *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 11:17:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25814 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25807 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wHvjh-00043A-00; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:16:45 -0600 To: jgrosch@FreeGate.net Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever...] Cc: nsj@ncsu.edu, kpneal@pobox.com, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:08:40 PDT." <199704162108.OAA01827@jgrosch.hq.freegate.net> References: <199704162108.OAA01827@jgrosch.hq.freegate.net> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:16:45 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199704162108.OAA01827@jgrosch.hq.freegate.net> Josef Grosch writes: : Yes, lets not hand out broken software but handing out copies of FreeBSD at : universitys is a Good Thing(tm). UNIX owes, in part, its success to the fact : that in the early day it was available for the asking. If I remember the : license cost was $1,000. There are a number of universitys that are using : FreeBSD to teach OS internal courses. The university of Virginia at : Blacksburg is one, I think. As part of my FreeBSD promotion activities, I've given away many copies of FreeSBD that Walnut creek was kind enough to provide to local indivduals and to the local university. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 11:25:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26345 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26336 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id EAA09021; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:22:51 +1000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:22:51 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704171822.EAA09021@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: cshenton@it.hq.nasa.gov, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.1-R crash with looped serial gettys Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I've built a little box for pppd/mpd and routing out of a 486sx33 and >a whopping 8MB RAM; seems to mostly run fine with 2.2.1-RELEASE. It's >a fairly minimal install (Kernel User option I think) and I rebuilt >the kernel to fit the hardware. I've added a dual 16550A serial port >card to which I'll connect a pair of modems. I have getty running on >the ports, cuaa1 and cuaa2. > >PROBLEM: > >If I connect a null-modem cable between the ports, the system crashes >within a couple seconds. It's repeatable. > >It leaves no message in /var/log/messages, or dmesg, and there's no >core file. > >I presume looping the serial gettys is causing them to scream at each >other "Login:"; "Invalid Login:"; no *you* login; dammit, `login' is >not a valid login... and consumes too many resources. 4 problems: 1. Yes there is a getty war (actually probably a login war) that consumes too many resources (at 115200 bps, about 100% of a 486/33 for echoing and receiving echoes alone according to my estimates. On a 486SX/33 it is unlikely that the system runs any cycles in user mode once the war starts. 57600 bps might work). 2. There is a timeout leak in siopoll(). Oops. This causes a panic instead of a hang. With this fixed, the hang is fixable by unplugging the cable. 3. You should have seen a panic message about (2). 4. This problem should have been reported to freebsd-bugs :-). Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 11:27:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26430 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26423 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA27830 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970417142522.00a4bc50@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:25:26 -0400 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: dennis Subject: Probing deflugalty Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk With the following configuration: device dev0 device dev0 at isa? port 0x300 If a PCI device is found, the ISA dev0 really shouldn't be probed, but it is. dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 12:02:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA27902 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA27892 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA00341; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:00:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704171900.MAA00341@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:00:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu, bsdhack@shadows.aeon.net, spidaman@well.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704171706.KAA17594@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Apr 17, 97 10:06:51 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So, you read the papers that have been published on it, and implement > something that does basically the same thing. You only have to > "reverse engineer it completely" if you want them to be compatible > (i.e. want to be able to plug a disk from your SGI into your PC or > whatever). Personally, I don't care about that too much. They would have a hard time enforcing against even a binary compatible implementation. Look at the NTFS stuff that Microsoft can't enforce (there is a read-only driver that loads as a DOS TSR; it's available from the O'Reilly WWW site). Also, there's: http://www.sgi.com/Support/DevProg/Forum/forum96/proceeds/Filesystem_for_IRIX_6_2_and_Beyond/overview.html The claim thair HSM module has been submitted to X/Open as a proposed standard. They appear to use DOW to delay block allocation. They appear to recover at mount time (I am suspicious of this type of thing because it can't reasonably protect against hardware failure like an offline tool might). They export the transaction log facilities to the FS consumer. Basically it's sufficiently documented that I doubt you could step on any toes. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 12:49:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00138 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:49:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA00112; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from root@localhost id XAA01961; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:48:20 +0400 Received: from ozz by techsz.msk.ru with ESMTP id XAA03578; (8.6.12/vak/1.9) Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:39:52 +0400 Message-Id: <199704171939.XAA03578@techsz.msk.ru> Reply-To: From: "Ozz" To: "FreeBSD Hackers" Cc: "FreeBSD Questions" Subject: CP866-rus for X ??? Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:39:02 +0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello! Do you know anythink about the CP866-russian fonts for X-Win? Ozz, osa@techsz.msk.ru From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 13:17:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01945 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA01899 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:16:57 -0700 (PDT) From: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AB23024; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:10:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:10:10 -0500 (EST) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jbryant@tfs.net, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704171653.JAA20313@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > if it costs more it MUST be better. > else how could they stay in business, right? right! > SCO recently did the contrary to stay in business :-). We have a different problem here. Credit cards are not as popular as in the US, and it is very dificult, I would say impossible, to obtain the money from the institution, open the account and buy a FreeBSD CD. Recently I found a shop that sells copies of Linux, and some more schools are starting to use Linux, but UNIX is relatively unknown to the common public. Perhaps instead of giving the software to students we should should give it to teachers and Campus network administrators so they will mirror it or replicate it if (when) they like it. Perhaps we (the users) are not exploiting the network as we should. If you have a network connection, it may not be that important to have the CD. IMO per unit cost must be the same as in other UNIX-like free systems, perhaps even a bit higher, but the subscription should be more attractive than on other UNIXs. I'm subscribed as a way to support FreeBSD, but while 2.1.6 is still lost in the mail (I doubt it will arrive) I downloaded 2.2-Release. Pedro. > jmb > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 13:17:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02003 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01979 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (perlsta@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA14603; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:17:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: James Mansion cc: freebsd-hackers@freeBSD.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3355E889.C84@wgold.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > database server. And you'd need a growth path beyond uniprocessor > Intel, which > free UNIXen (including Linux, as far as I'm concerned) don't have now. freebsd doesn't have multiple intel processor support? is this true? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 13:22:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02433 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02427 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA07990 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wHxd2-00049E-00; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:18:00 -0600 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Re: Mail exploders... Cc: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon), joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:34:04 PDT." <199704171634.JAA19155@freefall.freebsd.org> References: <199704171634.JAA19155@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:17:59 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199704171634.JAA19155@freefall.freebsd.org> "Jonathan M. Bresler" writes: : 49100 messages delayed 0 minutes : 3863 messages delayed 1 minutes : 214 messages delayed 2 minutes ... : 1 messages delayed 1241 minutes : 1 messages delayed 1281 minutes : 1 messages delayed 1321 minutes : 1 messages delayed 1352 minutes : : hmm.....i really should re-write this script to use a log scale for delay ;) Looks like a good use for Log Log display. While I don't know if a program can "lovingly render" this into ASCII graphics, it might no tbe such a bad idea to put together a plot pipeline that will send you a graph. When things are on the left of the graph, then you know life is good. When they start to move to the right, you know bad things are happening. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 13:31:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02947 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02927; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA23964; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:35:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:35:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Ozz cc: FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Questions Subject: Re: CP866-rus for X ??? In-Reply-To: <199704171939.XAA03578@techsz.msk.ru> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Ozz wrote: > Hello! > Do you know anythink about the CP866-russian fonts for X-Win? I don't think, such thing is used anywhere. Generally it's considered wrong to transfer any Cyrillic text to anything unixlike without converting it to koi8. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 14:17:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06480 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06447 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:16:47 -0700 (PDT) From: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17950; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:15:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:15:35 -0500 (EST) To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: James Mansion , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > database server. And you'd need a growth path beyond uniprocessor > > Intel, which > > free UNIXen (including Linux, as far as I'm concerned) don't have now. > > freebsd doesn't have multiple intel processor support? > is this true? > Yes, there is SMP support but it's still in an early stage to be trustable. Pedro. > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 14:27:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07242 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-50.netcom.ca [207.181.94.114]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07236 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA06339; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:26:17 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:26:17 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Alfred Perlstein cc: James Mansion , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > database server. And you'd need a growth path beyond uniprocessor > > Intel, which > > free UNIXen (including Linux, as far as I'm concerned) don't have now. > > freebsd doesn't have multiple intel processor support? > is this true? nope, SMP support is alive and well in 3.0+. I believe its integrated as part of 3.0+...isn't it? But we've had SMP capabilities through patches since at least 2.2 Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 14:50:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA08423 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA08332 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA00534; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:46:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704172146.OAA00534@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:46:04 -0700 (MST) Cc: james@wgold.demon.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Alfred Perlstein" at Apr 17, 97 04:17:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > database server. And you'd need a growth path beyond uniprocessor > > Intel, which > > free UNIXen (including Linux, as far as I'm concerned) don't have now. > > freebsd doesn't have multiple intel processor support? > is this true? FreeBSD supports a primitive SMP (which is better, by far, than no SMP -- all the really hard work is done). None of the Free UNIX clones support fine grain parallelism (kernel reentrancy on multiple processors, etc.). The current implementations are useful for seperate processes, but do not scale applications well, especially multithreading applications. Most of the win is in "make -j" and multiple "work-to-do" engines, like Apache with some spawned-ahead processes. Unfortunately, the non-reentrancy limits the utility, and lack of ability to imply processor affinity in the scheduler means that you have a 50/50 chance of having to reload all the L1 cache contents as your process migrates, willy-nilly between processors to whichever one was idle when its number came up. Finally, the use of a monolithic mutex instead of a true SMP lock manager (see UNIX for Modern Architectures for huge amounts of data on turnstiles and other useful primitives) means some cache line flushes (minimum) each time the lock is set (since the processor doing the setting must IPI the other processor, which must invalidate cache contents to sync the data in question... like global vnode freelists, etc.). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 14:59:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA09039 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (root@cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA09033 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [205.252.122.1]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA18163 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [205.252.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA29226 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:59:32 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:58:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: FreeBSD-Hackers Subject: Printing IBM chars Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have some text which has been formatted for a IBM printer -- you know, with the characters that form line graphics. I want to print it, but I want it to print with the lines, not with odd control character replacements. Anyone know how I could convert it? If I could display it on an X11 screen, I could print a screen dump (yucky looking, but better than nothing). Hmm? ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 15:31:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10990 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10975 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA29410; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970417182959.00b2e9c0@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:30:02 -0400 To: The Hermit Hacker , Alfred Perlstein From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: James Mansion , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 06:26 PM 4/17/97 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >> > database server. And you'd need a growth path beyond uniprocessor >> > Intel, which >> > free UNIXen (including Linux, as far as I'm concerned) don't have now. >> >> freebsd doesn't have multiple intel processor support? >> is this true? > > nope, SMP support is alive and well in 3.0+. I believe its >integrated as part of 3.0+...isn't it? But we've had SMP capabilities >through patches since at least 2.2 Great. So the most powerful boxes can only be used by hackers and not for any serious commercial purpose requiring stablilty.......didnt we just have a (rather heated) discussion about this? db > >Marc G. Fournier >Systems Administrator @ hub.org >primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 15:48:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA11968 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11961 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id IAA13451; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:48:10 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:48:09 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: dennis cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417142522.00a4bc50@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > > With the following configuration: > > device dev0 > device dev0 at isa? port 0x300 > > If a PCI device is found, the ISA dev0 really shouldn't be probed, but > it is. Dennis, I have a machine with ed0 (ISA), ed3 (PCI), ed4 (PCI) Putting the 'device dev0' in makes sure the code is included, but numbering starts after the ISA numbers. I'd sure hate it if I was not allowed to use a mixture of PCI and ISA cards from the same driver type. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 15:54:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12354 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12349 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA29546; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970417185259.00b2cdf0@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:53:01 -0400 To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" From: dennis Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 08:48 AM 4/18/97 +1000, Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: > > >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >> >> With the following configuration: >> >> device dev0 >> device dev0 at isa? port 0x300 >> >> If a PCI device is found, the ISA dev0 really shouldn't be probed, but >> it is. > >Dennis, I have a machine with ed0 (ISA), ed3 (PCI), ed4 (PCI) > >Putting the 'device dev0' in makes sure the code is included, but >numbering starts after the ISA numbers. > >I'd sure hate it if I was not allowed to use a mixture of PCI and ISA >cards from the same driver type. > >Danny > Uh....PCIs are probed first, so how would the above work...it makes much more sense for the PCI boards to be first (ie ed0, ed1) and the isa cards last, since you can specify the isa cards device name, but the PCI device name is dependent on whats in the system. Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 15:56:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12547 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12534 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA29566; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970417185458.00b2d590@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:55:00 -0400 To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" From: dennis Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 08:48 AM 4/18/97 +1000, Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: > > >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >> >> With the following configuration: >> >> device dev0 >> device dev0 at isa? port 0x300 >> >> If a PCI device is found, the ISA dev0 really shouldn't be probed, but >> it is. > >Dennis, I have a machine with ed0 (ISA), ed3 (PCI), ed4 (PCI) > >Putting the 'device dev0' in makes sure the code is included, but >numbering starts after the ISA numbers. > >I'd sure hate it if I was not allowed to use a mixture of PCI and ISA >cards from the same driver type. > My point here was that if ed0 is already attached that additional ed0 probes should not be done.... Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 15:57:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12603 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA12592 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA00665; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:56:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704172256.PAA00665@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Printing IBM chars To: chuckr@mat.net (Chuck Robey) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:56:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Chuck Robey" at Apr 17, 97 05:58:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I have some text which has been formatted for a IBM printer -- you know, > with the characters that form line graphics. I want to print it, but I > want it to print with the lines, not with odd control character > replacements. Anyone know how I could convert it? If I could display it > on an X11 screen, I could print a screen dump (yucky looking, but better > than nothing). Hmm? Heh. I think I know the text... You need to use a PC font for your xterm; I've made a couple in the past for things like an SCO console and Wyse60 emulating Xterm, but I haven't played with that stuff in a long time. I'm sure there's got to be one out there somewhere... I've looked through all the default fonts and all the international add-ons, and I couldn't find one. Try on ftp.x.org in contrib. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:01:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12933 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12918 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA13513; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:00:54 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:00:53 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: dennis cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417185259.00b2cdf0@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > At 08:48 AM 4/18/97 +1000, Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: > > > >Dennis, I have a machine with ed0 (ISA), ed3 (PCI), ed4 (PCI) > > > >Putting the 'device dev0' in makes sure the code is included, but > >numbering starts after the ISA numbers. > > > > Uh....PCIs are probed first, so how would the above work...it makes > much more sense for the PCI boards to be first (ie ed0, ed1) and > the isa cards last, since you can specify the isa cards device name, > but the PCI device name is dependent on whats in the system. Like I said, numbering starts *after* the ISA numbers. I tried a kernel config with ed0 ed1 ed2 at isa .... What happened was the PCI cards started at ed3 and ed4. So just added ed0 at isa ed1 at isa ed2 at isa ed3 and now I have the flexibility of putting in more ISA cards if necessary, and the PCI cards start at 3. ISA cards won't automatically number themselves, so it makes sense to start the number for PCI *after* all of the defined ISA devices. I have not looked at the code, but I assume that the PCI attach code finds the end of the ISA devices somehow. Cheers, Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:15:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13784 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13776 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA29706; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970417191432.00b5d890@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:14:34 -0400 To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" From: dennis Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:00 AM 4/18/97 +1000, Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: > > >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >> At 08:48 AM 4/18/97 +1000, Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: >> > >> >Dennis, I have a machine with ed0 (ISA), ed3 (PCI), ed4 (PCI) >> > >> >Putting the 'device dev0' in makes sure the code is included, but >> >numbering starts after the ISA numbers. >> > >> >> Uh....PCIs are probed first, so how would the above work...it makes >> much more sense for the PCI boards to be first (ie ed0, ed1) and >> the isa cards last, since you can specify the isa cards device name, >> but the PCI device name is dependent on whats in the system. > >Like I said, numbering starts *after* the ISA numbers. I tried a kernel >config with > >ed0 >ed1 >ed2 at isa .... > >What happened was the PCI cards started at ed3 and ed4. So just added > >ed0 at isa >ed1 at isa >ed2 at isa >ed3 > >and now I have the flexibility of putting in more ISA cards if necessary, >and the PCI cards start at 3. ISA cards won't automatically number >themselves, so it makes sense to start the number for PCI *after* all of >the defined ISA devices. I have not looked at the code, but I assume >that the PCI attach code finds the end of the ISA devices somehow. > >Cheers, > >Danny > What version are you running? I dont think 2.2.1 works that way..... Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:21:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14165 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA14156 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id BAA26938 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:21:52 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA11768; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:18:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418011811.HD45854@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:18:11 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. References: <19970417091202.BH22683@uriah.heep.sax.de> <5074.861265014@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <5074.861265014@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Apr 17, 1997 01:16:54 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Indeed. It will also undergo a transition to the name "setup" > at that point. But please, maintain a symlink to "sysinstall" initially. People got used to that name already. (You can, of course, also make symlinks to "sysadm", "scoadm", "smit", and "sam". :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:32:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14787 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA14782 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA25669; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:32:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:32:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Video Card Q Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hey folks, I'm trying to put together a new zoomy P6-based system, and I want a good video card...and I'm at a loss for what's better than what. Since I want 24-bit color I'll probably be running the XiG server, so absolute solid XFree86 drivers aren't necessarily of great importance... Any advice on what a good card would be? Right now I'm trying to decide between the #9FX 772 and the #9FX 771 cards. The obvious difference seems to be one supports "interlaced" and the other supports "sync on green". One uses the S3 Virge/VX chip and the other...S3 Vision968. Any good advice out there? Thanks, Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:33:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14882 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14870; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:33:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704172333.QAA14870@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Cc: james@wgold.demon.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Alfred Perlstein" at Apr 17, 97 04:17:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > database server. And you'd need a growth path beyond uniprocessor > > Intel, which > > free UNIXen (including Linux, as far as I'm concerned) don't have now. > > freebsd doesn't have multiple intel processor support? > is this true? FreeBSD DOES HAVE multiple intel processor support in development. please take a look at: http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:34:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14937 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14932 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA29258; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:33:20 -0700 (PDT) To: dennis cc: The Hermit Hacker , Alfred Perlstein , James Mansion , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:30:02 EDT." <3.0.32.19970417182959.00b2e9c0@etinc.com> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:33:19 -0700 Message-ID: <29250.861319999@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Great. So the most powerful boxes can only be used by hackers and > not for any serious commercial purpose requiring stablilty.......didnt > we just have a (rather heated) discussion about this? You're overly impatient. Wait (no more than) 90 days and watch for announcements. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:35:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA15063 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15057 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02492; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704172335.QAA02492@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: video capture driver interface to file system? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Apr 1997 14:46:04 PDT." <199704172146.OAA00534@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:35:04 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi , If you guys are still interested in technical stuff. We need a very fast mechanism to store images to disk. Suggestions? fxtv is a nice multimedia app which basically turns your PC to a TV. We surf the air waves 8) Tnks, Amancio rhh@ct.picker.com said: > From: Randall Hopper To: Amancio Hasty > Cc: multimedia@freebsd.org Subject: Re: > Bt848 Missing frames fix > Amancio Hasty: |Been playing a little with fxtv-0.4 and is really > nice -- next version I |hope that I can type in the channels --- > something like : |03 . Useful when I running fxtv full screen > . |The other keyboard feature which I would like is freeze frame > |Maybe assigned to numeric keypad "/" so with "+" and "-" I can scan > quickly |and then freeze something that I may like. | |The "-" and > "+" is great for surfing 8) > Sounds good. I'll jot down your suggestions for the future features > list. Also now that CAP_SINGLE captures 2 fields reliably, it's time > for me to put the save-to-disk features in there too. > Randall From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:46:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA15719 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-50.netcom.ca [207.181.94.114]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15477 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id UAA06808; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:35:17 -0300 (ADT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:35:17 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: dennis cc: Alfred Perlstein , James Mansion , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417182959.00b2e9c0@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > > nope, SMP support is alive and well in 3.0+. I believe its > >integrated as part of 3.0+...isn't it? But we've had SMP capabilities > >through patches since at least 2.2 > > Great. So the most powerful boxes can only be used by hackers and > not for any serious commercial purpose requiring stablilty.......didnt > we just have a (rather heated) discussion about this? Since SMP support is still in its infantcy(sp?)...pretty much so, but you'd get more accurate information if you joined the smp@freebsd.org mailing list and asked there... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:50:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA16375 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (root@cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16366 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [205.252.122.1]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA13760; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [205.252.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA23777; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:50:01 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:49:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Terry Lambert cc: FreeBSD-Hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Printing IBM chars In-Reply-To: <199704172256.PAA00665@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I have some text which has been formatted for a IBM printer -- you know, > > with the characters that form line graphics. I want to print it, but I > > want it to print with the lines, not with odd control character > > replacements. Anyone know how I could convert it? If I could display it > > on an X11 screen, I could print a screen dump (yucky looking, but better > > than nothing). Hmm? > > Heh. I think I know the text... Two guesses ... I appreciated the pointer, I am _not_ trying to wear out my welcome (I _very_ much appreciated that!) I get this damn thing printed, somehow ... > > You need to use a PC font for your xterm; I've made a couple in the > past for things like an SCO console and Wyse60 emulating Xterm, but > I haven't played with that stuff in a long time. I'm sure there's > got to be one out there somewhere... > > I've looked through all the default fonts and all the international > add-ons, and I couldn't find one. Try on ftp.x.org in contrib. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 9120 Edmonston Ct #302 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 16:58:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA17082 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA17076 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17382; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:57:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:57:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704172357.RAA17382@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: dennis Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417182959.00b2e9c0@etinc.com> References: <3.0.32.19970417182959.00b2e9c0@etinc.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Great. So the most powerful boxes can only be used by hackers and > not for any serious commercial purpose requiring stablilty.......didnt > we just have a (rather heated) discussion about this? Uhh, yeah. You want stability, then you can't have 'brand-new' features. You can't have it both ways. To put it into a scenario you might understand. : I want to beta-test your newest product before it's released : publically, but it better be *rock* solid since I need your latest : driver to handle the huge network loads I'm using. And, I'll complain : if it makes my machine unstable. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 17:08:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17434 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA17426 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.uunet.ca (mail2.uunet.ca [142.77.1.15]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id RAA08299 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from why.whine.com ([205.150.249.1]) by mail2.uunet.ca with ESMTP id <123079-12869>; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:06:52 -0400 Received: from why (why [205.150.249.1]) by why.whine.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA01589; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:06:27 -0400 From: Andrew Herdman X-Sender: andrew@why To: Mark Mayo cc: Kyle Mestery , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problems with afterstep and swap In-Reply-To: <19970416015251.01090@vinyl.quickweb.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk How do you turn off backing store on the XFree86 Servers? Andrew On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Mark Mayo wrote: > On Tue, Apr 15, 1997 at 07:54:06PM -0500, Kyle Mestery wrote: > > > > Hi, I have a problem with my system where my swap space is slowly filled > > up until there is none left and the system becomes unusable. I have a > > P150, 40MB FPM RAM, EIDE disks running FreeBSD-2.2.1 cvsupped as of April > > 11. I am also running the afterstep window manager. I am using > > Netscape, about 8 xterms, and doing some mild compiling, and after a > > couple of hours, anywhere from 4 to 20, the system runs out of swap > > space. I have 74MB of swap space. I believe that somewhere there is a > > memory leak, but I am not sure which program is causing it. Anyone have > > any ideas? > > Take a look and see how much memory your X-Server is using. If it's a lot, > disabling BACKING_STORE will dramitically reduce the memory size of > the X-Server. On my machine (using the Xinsde AccelX server) Netscape > was a pig with BACKING_STORE.... I turned it off, and now my Xserver > size stays consitent at a more reasonable figure. > > -Mark > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Kyle A.D. Mestery | --* POWERED BY FREEBSD *-- > > 1901 20th St. S #4 | Network Support Specialist > > Moorhead, MN 56560 | Concordia College, Moorhead, MN > > 218-236-6359 | "My other computer runs UNIX also" -TJ > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com > RingZero Comp. http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark > > finger mark@quickweb.com for my PGP key and GCS code > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to > get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be > thought incapable. -Sir Peter Imbert > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 17:13:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17780 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA17768 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id CAA27762 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:13:32 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12066; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:02:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418020244.YD57137@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:02:44 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: optical drives References: <199704171457.JAA00595@plains.nodak.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704171457.JAA00595@plains.nodak.edu>; from Mark Tinguely on Apr 17, 1997 09:57:29 -0500 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Mark Tinguely wrote: > notice his optical responses as a type 0 device, the drive I was working > with responds as a type 7 SCSI device: Except for some very old drives (like my SONY SMO), this is often jumper/DIP switch selectable. Type 7 is the intention per the SCSI specs, but they offer the compat switch so you can pretend a fixed disk for silly operating systems. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 17:13:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17804 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA17787 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id CAA27763 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:13:44 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA12079; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:04:45 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418020445.SU49564@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:04:45 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: optical drives References: <199704171722.DAA06579@godzilla.zeta.org.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704171722.DAA06579@godzilla.zeta.org.au>; from Bruce Evans on Apr 18, 1997 03:22:08 +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Bruce Evans wrote: > [This should be discussed in a technical mailing list, not -hackers.] You mean, like -chat? :-) > >> (ahc0:1:0): "IBM MTA-3230TC2210!B 0" type 0 removable SCSI 2 > >> sd1(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 217MB (446325 512 byte sectors) > >> sd1(ahc0:1:0): with 17934 cyls, 1 heads, and an average 24 sectors/track > > A very tall drive :-). Nope, why? MOs are indeed one head any many many cylinders. My 650 (actually 280, per side) MB medium claims about 18000 cylinders with 31 sectors per track. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 17:19:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18105 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p7.tfs.net [206.154.183.199]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA18087 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA16768; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:19:00 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704180019.TAA16768@argus> Subject: Re: optical drives To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:18:58 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704171722.DAA06579@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Apr 18, 97 03:22:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > [This should be discussed in a technical mailing list, not -hackers.] > > >od_open() calls dsopen() calls dsinit() which calls check_part(). > > > >eventhough dsinit() has a label with the correct geometery, it is > >looking to verify the geometry by checking the DOS partitions, > >but optial drives don't have partitions (?) and we get 0 for the value > >of the sector per cylinder. check_part() does not check to see if the > >secpercyl is zero before doing an integer divide. This zero value > >for secpercyl causes the panic. > > You are probably supposed to write a partition table. Otherwise, garbage > may be interpreted as a good partition table with wrong offsets and > and data at wrong offsets may be written to. A panic is better. It > takes special garbage to produce the divide by zero error: > > - there must be a boot signature 0x55, 0xaa at the end of the MBR > - all of the bits in the places that are interpreted as ending sector > numbers must be 0 (this gives max_nsectors == 0 and secpercyl == 0) > - some of the bits in the places that are interpreted as starting > sector, head or cylinder numbers must be nonzero (otherwise, > check_part() is not called). This is unusual when the previous 2 > conditions are met, so the panic is unusual. > > Fix: treat the max_nsectors == 0 case as an error. > > >The optical drive did not work with the DOS fdisk. I do not know if this > >means optical media act like diskettes and do not have DOS partitions or > >fdisk is brain dead. > > A partition is just data. Even vn disks can have partitions in FreeBSD. under dog, use the adaptec afdisk utility [assuming you have adaptec]... > >Jim Bryant showed that his optical acts like a drive: > > > >> (ahc0:1:0): "IBM MTA-3230TC2210!B 0" type 0 removable SCSI 2 > >> sd1(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 217MB (446325 512 byte sectors) > >> sd1(ahc0:1:0): with 17934 cyls, 1 heads, and an average 24 sectors/track > > A very tall drive :-). well, it jives with the IBM MTA3230 manual [which is harder to find than chicken lips]... the easiest way to get a magneto-optical working is to simply jumper it as a type 0 removable... the geometry above is what worked after many experiments... this just uses the straight scsi driver... no od0 is required... this is how i prep the disks 230M and 128M [128M disktab entry follows at end]: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -rwx------ 1 root wheel 335 Jun 6 1996 mkmo230 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #!/bin/tcsh echo "" echo -n $0": writing partition table..." fdisk -i /dev/rsd1c <& /dev/null y 17934 64 32 y y 165 32 444384 y 0 1 1 216 63 32 y y 0 0 0 y 0 0 0 0 0 0 y y 0 0 0 y 0 0 0 0 0 0 y y 0 0 0 y 0 0 0 0 0 0 y y 0 y y EOF echo "done." sleep 2 echo -n $0": writing disk label..." disklabel -rw /dev/sd1s1 mo230 >& /dev/null echo "done." sleep 2 echo -n $0": laying filesystem..." newfs /dev/sd1s1a >& /dev/null echo "done." echo "" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -rwx------ 1 root wheel 335 Sep 21 1996 mkmo128 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #!/bin/tcsh echo "" echo -n $0": writing partition table..." fdisk -i /dev/rsd1c <& /dev/null y 9994 64 32 y y 165 32 247776 y 0 1 1 216 63 32 y y 0 0 0 y 0 0 0 0 0 0 y y 0 0 0 y 0 0 0 0 0 0 y y 0 0 0 y 0 0 0 0 0 0 y y 0 y y EOF echo "done." sleep 2 echo -n $0": writing disk label..." disklabel -rw /dev/sd1s1 mo128 >& /dev/null echo "done." sleep 2 echo -n $0": laying filesystem..." newfs /dev/sd1s1a >& /dev/null echo "done." echo "" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 5613 Sep 21 1996 disktab ------------------------------------------------------------------------ mo230|IBM MTA-3230 with 230 Meg 3.5inch Magneto-Optical:\ :ty=removeable:dt=SCSI:rm#3600:\ :se#512:nt#64:ns#32:nc#216:sc#2048:su#444384:\ :pa#444384:oa#0:ba#4096:fa#0:ta=4.2BSD:\ :pc#444384:oc#0: mo128|IBM MTA-3230 with 128 Meg 3.5inch Magneto-Optical:\ :ty=removeable:dt=SCSI:rm#3600:\ :se#512:nt#64:ns#32:nc#121:sc#2048:su#247776:\ :pa#247776:oa#0:ba#4096:fa#0:ta=4.2BSD:\ :pc#247776:oc#0: assuming you have a 230M/128M magneto-optical, this [minor tweaking may be required if you are not using an IBM MTA3230, such as a Fujitsu] should get you running.. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 17:19:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18106 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA18090 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA13865; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:18:44 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:18:43 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: dennis cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417185458.00b2d590@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >Dennis, I have a machine with ed0 (ISA), ed3 (PCI), ed4 (PCI) > > > >Putting the 'device dev0' in makes sure the code is included, but > >numbering starts after the ISA numbers. > > > >I'd sure hate it if I was not allowed to use a mixture of PCI and ISA > >cards from the same driver type. > My point here was that if ed0 is already attached that additional ed0 > probes should not be done.... Which is why the PCI numbering must start after the ISA. Maybe declaring 'device ed0' in the config file is misleading. Perhaps it should be 'device ed' or 'device ed pci'. After all, declaring 'device ed0' will allow any number of PCI ed cards. Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 17:26:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18652 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA18647 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA00293; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:26:16 -0700 (PDT) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Minor 2.2.1 install nit. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:18:11 +0200." <19970418011811.HD45854@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:26:15 -0700 Message-ID: <291.861323175@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > used to that name already. (You can, of course, also make symlinks to > "sysadm", "scoadm", "smit", and "sam". :-) *Thwap* :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 17:37:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19247 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA19242 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA00375 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:37:09 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Any interest in parallel-port Zip drive support for FreeBSD? Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:37:09 -0700 Message-ID: <373.861323829@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk http://www.prism.uvsq.fr/~son/ppa3.html It's apparently very slow, but functional. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 17:52:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19889 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (w2xo.pgh.pa.us [206.210.70.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA19851 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w2xo.pgh.pa.us (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by w2xo.pgh.pa.us (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA05630; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3356C58E.41C67EA6@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:51:26 -0400 From: Jim Durham Organization: Dis- X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: <4626.861257826@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I don't know where you live, but they can be found at both Fry's and > "Weird Stuff" - two popular Bay Area computer outlets. Fry's, (snip) > I've also seen copies at Cody's bookstore in Berkeley, a popular > hangout for CS types. More linux stuff, naturally, but they at least > had FreeBSD in the retail box in their OS section. I believe you can > also find them at Computer Literacy, though I haven't checked recently. A large bookseller in the Midwest is Barnes and Noble. They are trendy (coffeeshop, live musicians and all that). There are probably 9-10 of the huge shelf units full of Bill's stuff (M$) and one full of Linux stuff. There is a shelf unit devoted to misc operating systems. It had one book on BSD, no mention of FreeBSD at all. Most of it was Apple and Mac stuff. There was actually more Linux than Mac in the store. Computer shows in the Pittsburgh area have quite a few Linux CD Roms available. I have only seen FreeBSD once in several years and not at all in the last couple of shows. Where I work (mobile video production company), we hired some bozos to put in a network a year and a half ago (NT with 95 workstations replacing a Novell/DOS network, *still* not working properly). There are two of us in engineering that suggested Unix instead. We were hooted down with "Oh No, it's full of security holes!" and "Nobody can understand it!" and "It won't run Windows!". It's amazing what the perception of Unix is outside CS circles. I've even been told "Don't admit you use Unix, it will look bad for you!" The two major universities here, Pitt and CMU are running a lot of Linux in the CS departments, but in the offices they're using M$. There's no FreeBSD in academia here that I'm aware of. A few CDs to both of these CS departments would be worthwhile, I think. -Jim Durham From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 17:53:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19968 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA19961 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 17:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA03452; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:41:18 +0800 (WST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:41:18 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Warner Losh cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: WhistleJets (was Re: Another Linux Religious war) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > : They have no problems running FreeBSD on the box seperating this nice > : critical network from the rest of the internet :) It handles all their > : email and web (and soon will become three boxes, one for lot of virtual > : webserving, one for email and one as a firewall). > : > : Just another place where FreeBSD is used. :) > : > > Sounds just like a WhistleJet, only w/o the custom hardware. A lot of > places will be able to say that if Whistle is successful. They have a > really cool box. Yep, as I've been told :) I know a lot of places are making up their own solutions, I know at least a major ISP in Perth is marketing the "Phoenix" server which does basically the same as the WhistleJet, but with Linux instead. Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:01:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20563 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20551; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:01:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199704180101.SAA20551@freefall.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Mail exploders... To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199704161222.OAA02421@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Apr 16, 97 02:22:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > So I am wondering how are the mail exploders chosen for a given site, > and if there is a possibility for a subscriber to select one which is > closer (networkwise) and/or better connected to his site. people volunteer. we ask a few questions about connectivity, uptime, reliability and longevity. if the answers are encouraging, we add them to the lists of relays ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:13:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA21488 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p7.tfs.net [206.154.183.199]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA21478 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA16930; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:13:14 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704180113.UAA16930@argus> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us (Jim Durham) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:13:13 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <3356C58E.41C67EA6@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> from "Jim Durham" at Apr 17, 97 08:51:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > I don't know where you live, but they can be found at both Fry's and > > "Weird Stuff" - two popular Bay Area computer outlets. Fry's, > (snip) > > I've also seen copies at Cody's bookstore in Berkeley, a popular > > hangout for CS types. More linux stuff, naturally, but they at least > > had FreeBSD in the retail box in their OS section. I believe you can > > also find them at Computer Literacy, though I haven't checked recently. > > A large bookseller in the Midwest is Barnes and Noble. They are > trendy (coffeeshop, live musicians and all that). There are probably > 9-10 of the huge shelf units full of Bill's stuff (M$) and one full > of Linux stuff. There is a shelf unit devoted to misc operating systems. > It had one book on BSD, no mention of FreeBSD at all. Most of it was > Apple and Mac stuff. There was actually more Linux than Mac in the > store. about the same in Dallas/Ft. Worth [a bit more on the misc side, but still no BSD], and here in the Kansas City area the stores actually think linux IS unix... i did hear of a single cd-rom store in dallas [richardson?] that at one time had FreeBSD, but that store was a bit out of the way... not bad for two metropolitan areas with a combined population of 15-20 million people, one store carrying FreeBSD, and it was so far out of the way that i didn't go there... apparently KU has a real big linux community, so does UMKC... that's just my personal experience... > Where I work (mobile video production company), we hired some bozos > to put in a network a year and a half ago (NT with 95 workstations > replacing > a Novell/DOS network, *still* not working properly). There are two of us > in engineering that suggested Unix instead. We were hooted down with "Oh > No, > it's full of security holes!" and "Nobody can understand it!" and "It > won't run Windows!". It's amazing what the perception of Unix is outside > CS circles. > I've even been told "Don't admit you use Unix, it will look bad for > you!" all of those subliminals bill puts in winblowz must be working... > The two major universities here, Pitt and CMU are running a lot of Linux > in > the CS departments, but in the offices they're using M$. There's no > FreeBSD > in academia here that I'm aware of. A few CDs to both of these CS > departments > would be worthwhile, I think. Same goes for Kansas and Missouri, as well as UT [Arlington, and Dallas]... that's a shame about CMU... especially with the CMU connections to 4.4BSD... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:14:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA21664 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21659 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (localhost.lan.awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA02886; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:49:30 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199704180049.BAA02886@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: johnp@lodgenet.com cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rsh and ppp In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:34:28 CDT." <199704170334.WAA00383@knight.trosoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:49:29 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Why does the rsh command not work when alias is enabled with ppp? > I get the error ... > "select: protocol failure in circuit setup" > This happens only on ppp connections. On the local net rsh works fine. > Release 2.2.1-RELEASE.. > Help??? > John Prince The problem is that RPC based programs expect the client side to come from a specific port. The alias software changes that port, breaking the protocol. There's now a "keep the port the same if you can" option in the alias code, but it's not in ppp yet - just natd (ports/net/natd). -- Brian , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:24:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22339 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA22325 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id BAA29228; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:23:56 GMT Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:23:56 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Pedro Giffuni cc: Aaron Smith , Terry Lambert , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-Reply-To: <33565265.48AA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > > John H. is packaging some utok stuff for me written for SunOS for use in > > out of kernel development. We might have to do a custom ktou and > > transport layer to use it. They used NFS for the transport layer in their > > Ficus project, but it depends on a userland NFS server to work. > > > We will also have to do some kernel api emulation. I'll have to talk to > > John Dyson and others to see if that is even feasible for all the calls > > the fs code needs to make. > > I didn't know about that, he said he had replaced the SUN specific > things...are the additional APIs SYSV-like ? FreeBSD 3.0 is turning out > to be very sysv like this days. The SYSV-like stuff you are referring to is mostly in what's exposed externally. In kernel code it's natural to have OS specific API's. To do an out-of-kernel fs layer for FreeBSD I will have to identify all the FreeBSD API calls that are required in fs code and see if we can emulate them. It might be difficult to emulate some of the semantics. The vnode interface in FreeBSD is designed to be extensible, it is different from the SYSV vnode interface derived from the SunOS implementation which is fixed. Regards, Mike From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:30:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22604 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p7.tfs.net [206.154.183.199]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA22598 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA16973; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:31:08 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704180131.UAA16973@argus> Subject: Re: optical drives To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:31:07 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <19970418020244.YD57137@uriah.heep.sax.de> from "J Wunsch" at Apr 18, 97 02:02:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > As Mark Tinguely wrote: > > > notice his optical responses as a type 0 device, the drive I was working > > with responds as a type 7 SCSI device: > > Except for some very old drives (like my SONY SMO), this is often > jumper/DIP switch selectable. Type 7 is the intention per the SCSI > specs, but they offer the compat switch so you can pretend a fixed > disk for silly operating systems. > > -- > cheers, J"org actually, i've found that there are a lot of broken os's... the most compatable way of doing it is to jumper for type 0... also, od0 was still highly alpha when i finally got this thing working under FreeBSD a couple of years ago, and i ain't yet bothered to change drivers yet... if it ain't broke, then don't fix it... btw: take note of the 128M disktab i put in my last posting on this topic... it might go nicely in the /etc/disktab next to mo230 for the dist... i had to buy a 128M disk once when the store was out of 230s, and added that one to disktab recently... it seems to work, as i moved my IEN/RFC collection to it to free up space on a 230M... on the subject of removable scsi disks, but slightly off topic: has anyone done a side by side comparison of SyJet [1.5G] and Jazz [1G] using bonnie or iozone using ahc? given that they are the same price here [$399 internal, $120-129/cart], i'm leaning towards the SyJet... i've also heard that the flap/door thing on the Jazz internal model is really flimsy too, plus the SyJet claims faster real-life sustained throughput ["up to 7 M/S", that's as good as or better than my 2G scsi-2 barracuda]... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:34:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22774 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA22733 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem13.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.43]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15682; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:35:55 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3356EAC8.1615@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:30:16 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brandon Gillespie CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel config 'doconfig' (was: Re: Another Linux Religious war) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brandon Gillespie wrote: > > ---------------------------- > SYNOPSIS > > /usr/sbin/doconfig [-s | -b] [-c config_file -dn] [ -e ed_script] > > Comments? Howdy, I've tested, not extensively yet, the doconfig command and I LIKE it. It keeps me from moving around the source directories to build a kernel. It doesn't ask stupid questions like other OSs. Building a kernel is not something that I do everyday, but now I feel like doing it more often :-). My only suggestions for Brandon are having a man page, and using a Berkeley-like license (see adduser(8)). The command doesn't exist in Solaris or AIX, that are the only unstable boxes I use, but if it comes in Digital Unix, I guess it's in the family. If, for some reason, it isn't committed, we can port it. Pedro. > > -Brandon Gillespie From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:35:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22871 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caipfs.rutgers.edu (root@caipfs.rutgers.edu [128.6.37.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA22866 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jenolan.caipgeneral (jenolan.rutgers.edu [128.6.111.5]) by caipfs.rutgers.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA17384; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by jenolan.caipgeneral (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA03470; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:32:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:32:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199704180132.VAA03470@jenolan.caipgeneral> From: "David S. Miller" To: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3356C58E.41C67EA6@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> (message from Jim Durham on Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:51:26 -0400) Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:51:26 -0400 From: Jim Durham The two major universities here, Pitt and CMU are running a lot of Linux in the CS departments, but in the offices they're using M$. There's no FreeBSD in academia here that I'm aware of. A few CDs to both of these CS departments would be worthwhile, I think. I thought a year or so ago CMU CS departments decided that NetBSD or similar would be used in some form for OS classes and/or research, or something like this. Has the situation changed? ---------------------------------------------//// Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & //// 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s //// ethernet. Beat that! //// -----------------------------------------////__________ o David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:51:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA23464 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA23450 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id DAA28473 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:50:56 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA00996; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:44:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418034443.PL06012@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:44:43 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any interest in parallel-port Zip drive support for FreeBSD? References: <373.861323829@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <373.861323829@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Apr 17, 1997 17:37:09 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > http://www.prism.uvsq.fr/~son/ppa3.html > > It's apparently very slow, but functional. The biggest problem with this driver is that the architecture of the parallel port driver is now totally clumsy. It has already been problematical to add the PLIP functionality, but now with the ZIP driver, all bets are off. That's not to say i'm objecting against this driver... Lacking a better architecture of the parallel port subsystem, we might accept it, but only if there's also an active maintainer (probably the author himself). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:51:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA23483 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA23463 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id DAA28476 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:51:06 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA01008; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:46:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418034617.TH57171@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:46:17 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? References: <199704172146.OAA00534@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199704172335.QAA02492@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704172335.QAA02492@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Apr 17, 1997 16:35:04 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Amancio Hasty wrote: > If you guys are still interested in technical stuff. We need a very > fast mechanism to store images to disk. Suggestions? /dev/rsdX :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 18:57:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA23803 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bookcase.com (root@notes.bookcase.com [207.22.115.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA23797 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 18:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (chadf@localhost) by bookcase.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA00597 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:57:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Chad M. Fraleigh" X-Sender: chadf@notes To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FS & GS registers not in sigcontext? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk While looking through the wine code I noticed this little comment: #ifdef linux /* fs and gs are not supported on *BSD. Hopefully we won't need them. */ #define FS_sig(context) ((context)->sc_fs) #define GS_sig(context) ((context)->sc_gs) #endif And I was just kinda curious why they weren't in there? I mean is there a reason behind it, or is it just one of those "nobody's bothered yet" kinda things? -Chad From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 19:06:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA24483 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from popper.paradigm2000.com (patrick@popper.paradigm2000.com [202.76.31.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA24473 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from patrick@localhost) by popper.paradigm2000.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA18150 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:20:21 +0800 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:20:21 +0800 From: Patrick Message-Id: <199704180220.KAA18150@popper.paradigm2000.com> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Single user mode Q Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. I am using 2.1.5 custom kernel. As I want to make sure my change to the boot rc process can be recover by booting to single user mode. However, when I boot by wd(0,a)/kernel -s, the root is mount as read only. How can I change to read and write? From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 19:15:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA24972 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oak-1.pilot.net (mail-oak-1.pilot.net [198.232.147.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA24962 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u2.pilot.net (unknown-17-117.pilot.net [204.48.17.117]) by mail-oak-1.pilot.net with ESMTP id TAA06058 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dc3.pilot.net (dc3.pilot.net [204.48.17.11]) by u2.pilot.net (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id TAA12568 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (wadlow@localhost) by dc3.pilot.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00900 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dc3.pilot.net: wadlow owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Wadlow Reply-To: Tom Wadlow To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Interesting problem Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I've run into an interesting problem in installing FreeBSD 2.2.1 on an the following system: - NEC Versa 6030X (133Mhz Pentium, 32MB Ram, 1.4GB disk) - Megahertz X-Jack 10BaseT PCMCIA card. I'm using the latest and greatest PAO boot.flp image. I also have a 6030H laptop (same thing except the X has a 1024x768 display and the H has an 800x600) that runs Linux. To verify the 6030X hardware, I pulled the hard drive out of the '30H and installed it in the '30X. It boots, PCMCIA works, Ethernet card works. Going back to the blank (well, it had Win95 on it, so it's *effectively* blank...) hard drive, I boot from the PAO floppy. I go through the install sequence for PCMCIA. It sees the PCMCIA, sees the Megahertz card. I go through the installation selection, and it prompts me for all the network stuff, which I enter. It tries to set the default route and connect to ftp.freebsd.org. This fails. Pinging the IP that the laptop should be at fails. Going to the emergency shell, I fiddle with ifconfig and notice that if I do an "ifconfig sn0 up", the interface comes alive. So I powercycle the machine, go through the sequence again, but this time, I supply "up" as an additional ifconfig argument in the network part. So far so good. It begins the installation. Meanwhile, on my Sun, I've got a "ping -s" going to the laptop. It is showing delay times of 250-1500 milliseconds. My Sun and the laptop are on the same segment. A ping to another machine on the same segment shows 0 msec delays. A ping to the Linux running on the '30H, with the same Megahertz card and same Ethernet cable shows 0 msec. But hell, it's working, so I proceed. The installation starts, and it connects to ftp.freebsd.org. Starts downloading. It's slower than molasses, but it's working. I leave the ping running from the Sun. Approximately 90 seconds after the sn0 interface is first brought up, it stops. No more downloading. No more pings. Emergency shell ifconfig shows it's still up, but ifconfig up/down/whatever has no effect on it. It's just locked up. Power cycling resets it. Repeating the process, it happens again. Using a different Ethernet card, same problem. Shifting the disk to the '30H, same problem. So it seems to be bound to the software, not the hardware, as the only bit of hardware that stays the same is the hard disk (as I only have one expendable one). Note that this same Megahertz card works great (and is quite fast) on a Twinhead 486 system running FreeBSD 2.2-Something-GAMMA, with the PAO stuff installed. Any thoughts? --Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 19:38:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA26264 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from para (para.paradigm2000.com [202.76.31.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA26255 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by para (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06708; Fri, 18 Apr 97 10:36:46 HKT Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 10:36:46 HKT From: patrick@para.paradigm2000.com (Patrick Lau) Message-Id: <9704180236.AA06708@para> To: Warner Losh , Adrian Chadd Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WhistleJets (was Re: Another Linux Religious war) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 19:43:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA26680 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA26666 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA21010; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:12:44 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704180242.MAA21010@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Mail exploders... In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Apr 17, 97 02:17:59 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:12:44 +0930 (CST) Cc: jmb@freefall.freebsd.org, jlemon@americantv.com, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > In message <199704171634.JAA19155@freefall.freebsd.org> "Jonathan M. Bresler" writes: > : 49100 messages delayed 0 minutes > : 3863 messages delayed 1 minutes > : 214 messages delayed 2 minutes > ... > : 1 messages delayed 1241 minutes > : 1 messages delayed 1281 minutes > : 1 messages delayed 1321 minutes > : 1 messages delayed 1352 minutes > : > : hmm.....i really should re-write this script to use a log scale for delay ;) > > Looks like a good use for Log Log display. > > While I don't know if a program can "lovingly render" this into ASCII > graphics, it might no tbe such a bad idea to put together a plot > pipeline that will send you a graph. When things are on the left of > the graph, then you know life is good. When they start to move to the > right, you know bad things are happening. gnuplot will do a pretty good job of it. > Warner > > > -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 19:52:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27039 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27029 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA21043; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:22:17 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704180252.MAA21043@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Video Card Q In-Reply-To: from "Brian N. Handy" at "Apr 17, 97 04:32:24 pm" To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian N. Handy) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:22:17 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brian N. Handy stands accused of saying: > > I'm trying to put together a new zoomy P6-based system, and I want a good > video card...and I'm at a loss for what's better than what. Since I want > 24-bit color I'll probably be running the XiG server, so absolute solid > XFree86 drivers aren't necessarily of great importance... > > Any advice on what a good card would be? Right now I'm trying to decide > between the #9FX 772 and the #9FX 771 cards. The obvious difference seems > to be one supports "interlaced" and the other supports "sync on green". > One uses the S3 Virge/VX chip and the other...S3 Vision968. I haven't actually used the 772, but the 771 is our favoured high-end card; we have successfully sold several systems to customers that were looking at SGI's based on these cards' performance at 24bpp. (Price was also a contributing factor, I must say 8) If you do buy one, make sure you get one with 4M, as the cards are not upgradeable. > Any good advice out there? Hmm, the Virge is a newer part, so it may well be faster. Can you perhaps talk your dealer into one of each for a comparison test? > Brian -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 19:56:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27244 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27239 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA21055; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:25:42 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704180255.MAA21055@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704172335.QAA02492@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Apr 17, 97 04:35:04 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:25:42 +0930 (CST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > If you guys are still interested in technical stuff. We need a very > fast mechanism to store images to disk. Suggestions? >From where? ie. where is the source of the data? A device driver, or an application? > fxtv is a nice multimedia app which basically turns your PC to a TV. If you want to use files in a filesystem, write() is pretty good 8) If that's too slow, try using a disk partition (ie. write a userspace filesystem with just the primitives you need). Make sure you experiment with both the raw and cooked disk interfaces to see which works best for you. > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 19:59:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27344 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27339 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA21069; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:29:03 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704180259.MAA21069@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Any interest in parallel-port Zip drive support for FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <373.861323829@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Apr 17, 97 05:37:09 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:29:03 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > http://www.prism.uvsq.fr/~son/ppa3.html > > It's apparently very slow, but functional. There's also been some discussion (I think it was on -hackers) with people who were using this on both 2.2 and 2.1-vintage systems, and someone had a slightly cleaned-up version they were using. I had hoped to get my hands on one to test it with, or to hear back from the original correspondent to confirm they were happy, but neither happened. It certainly works as far as I know. > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 20:02:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27519 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panda.hilink.com.au (panda.hilink.com.au [203.2.144.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27512 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from danny@localhost) by panda.hilink.com.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA14629; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:01:44 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:01:43 +1000 (EST) From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" To: Patrick cc: freebsd-hackers@freeBSD.org Subject: Re: Single user mode Q In-Reply-To: <199704180220.KAA18150@popper.paradigm2000.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Patrick wrote: > I am using 2.1.5 custom kernel. As I want to make sure my change to > the boot rc process can be recover by booting to single user mode. However, > when I boot by wd(0,a)/kernel -s, the root is mount as read only. How can I > change to read and write? /sbin/fsck -p (if needed) /sbin/mount -a (or mount the specific fs you want.) Danny From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 20:04:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27659 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27617 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA21085; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:33:40 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704180303.MAA21085@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: WhistleJets (was Re: Another Linux Religious war) In-Reply-To: from Adrian Chadd at "Apr 18, 97 08:41:18 am" To: adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au (Adrian Chadd) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:33:40 +0930 (CST) Cc: imp@village.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Adrian Chadd stands accused of saying: > > I know a lot of places are making up their own solutions, I know at least > a major ISP in Perth is marketing the "Phoenix" server which does > basically the same as the WhistleJet, but with Linux instead. Heh, and we all know who they are, right? I've been trying to talk Whistle into selling into the Australian market; there are a lot of people in the 'right' places here who, IMHO, would consider something like the WJ _exactly_ the right thing to have. In most particular, Telstra have pulled some interesting stuff that means that a business could have a full-time 'net connection for $500 once-off and less then 20c/MB. For an org with a network of Mac/PC system (common), something like the WJ would just become the "Internet machine" in conjunction with this. I have been _itching_ to be able to sell this to people; I haven't dared try to put together something as complex single-handed though 8( > Adrian -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 20:05:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27744 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27737 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01268; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704180304.UAA01268@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Michael Smith cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:25:42 +0930." <199704180255.MAA21055@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:04:28 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Not interested in using write nor any user level api. the video capture driver can place a digital image any where in memory or on video cards (PCI to PCI transfer). For the purpose of this discussion, what I want to do is when I get a frame in a buffer to pass a token to a file system routine to write the buffer to disk. The object is to avoid unnecessarily copying the buffer. Tnks, Amancio >From The Desk Of Michael Smith : > Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > > > If you guys are still interested in technical stuff. We need a very > > fast mechanism to store images to disk. Suggestions? > > From where? ie. where is the source of the data? A device driver, or > an application? > > > fxtv is a nice multimedia app which basically turns your PC to a TV. > > If you want to use files in a filesystem, write() is pretty good 8) If > that's too slow, try using a disk partition (ie. write a userspace > filesystem with just the primitives you need). Make sure you > experiment with both the raw and cooked disk interfaces to see which > works best for you. > > > Amancio > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 20:10:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27989 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27982 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA21105; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:39:47 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704180309.MAA21105@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: optical drives In-Reply-To: <199704180131.UAA16973@argus> from Jim Bryant at "Apr 17, 97 08:31:07 pm" To: jbryant@tfs.net Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:39:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jim Bryant stands accused of saying: > > btw: take note of the 128M disktab i put in my last posting on this > topic... it might go nicely in the /etc/disktab next to mo230 for the > dist... i had to buy a 128M disk once when the store was out of 230s, > and added that one to disktab recently... it seems to work, as i > moved my IEN/RFC collection to it to free up space on a 230M... Putting disktab entries in for most disks is pointless; the 'auto' type will work unless the driver can't get the disk's size right. > has anyone done a side by side comparison of SyJet [1.5G] and Jazz > [1G] using bonnie or iozone using ahc? given that they are the same > price here [$399 internal, $120-129/cart], i'm leaning towards the > SyJet... i've also heard that the flap/door thing on the Jazz > internal model is really flimsy too, plus the SyJet claims faster > real-life sustained throughput ["up to 7 M/S", that's as good as or > better than my 2G scsi-2 barracuda]... I haven't busted the door on my Jazz yet, and it gets quite a lot of use. OTOH, I've had one cart die on me (media error) and another grow at least one defect (I'm not sure if it's successfully mapped it, although it claims to do ARRE and AWRE). I haven't had a chance to play with a SyJet yet, but I would suspect that their 7M/sec "sustained" is SCSI throughput, not media throughput. > jim -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 20:10:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28010 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27991 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01324; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704180310.UAA01324@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:46:17 +0200." <19970418034617.TH57171@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:10:15 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of J Wunsch : > As Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > If you guys are still interested in technical stuff. We need a very > > fast mechanism to store images to disk. Suggestions? > > /dev/rsdX > > :-) Hi, I actually don't think thats a fast way of writing info since the process is synchronous. At any rate, I do want to write to a file. Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 20:21:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28451 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28445 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA21156; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:49:58 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704180319.MAA21156@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704180304.UAA01268@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Apr 17, 97 08:04:28 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:49:58 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > Not interested in using write nor any user level api. Ok, so you want the kernel to do the work for you. Have a look at kern/kern_ktrace..c for how ktrace does it; it gets an fd passed in from userland (which is the right place for manipulating files etc.), and writes to it. It also demonstrates using multiple iov entries for writing multiple non-contiguous buffers. > For the purpose of this discussion, what I want to do is when I get a frame > in a buffer to pass a token to a file system routine to write the buffer > to disk. The object is to avoid unnecessarily copying the buffer. If you don't want to futz around with filesystems, then you need to play with bwrite, and you will want to talk to John D. about that. > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 20:32:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28871 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28866 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01522; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704180331.UAA01522@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Michael Smith cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:49:58 +0930." <199704180319.MAA21156@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:31:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Michael, I am just looking for a technical solution yes I can go and look around the kernel sources. I just thought that maybe and just maybe one of you guys knew how to do it . Guess not. Tnks anyhow, Amancio >From The Desk Of Michael Smith : > Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > > > Not interested in using write nor any user level api. > > Ok, so you want the kernel to do the work for you. Have a look at > kern/kern_ktrace..c for how ktrace does it; it gets an fd passed in > from userland (which is the right place for manipulating files etc.), > and writes to it. It also demonstrates using multiple iov entries > for writing multiple non-contiguous buffers. > > > For the purpose of this discussion, what I want to do is when I get a frame > > in a buffer to pass a token to a file system routine to write the buffer > > to disk. The object is to avoid unnecessarily copying the buffer. > > If you don't want to futz around with filesystems, then you need to > play with bwrite, and you will want to talk to John D. about that. > > > Amancio > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 20:37:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA29077 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA29068 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id UAA18664; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:37:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:37:24 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199704180337.UAA18664@kithrup.com> To: chadf@bookcase.com Subject: Re: FS & GS registers not in sigcontext? Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >#ifdef linux >/* fs and gs are not supported on *BSD. Hopefully we won't need them. */ >#define FS_sig(context) ((context)->sc_fs) >#define GS_sig(context) ((context)->sc_gs) >#endif > > And I was just kinda curious why they weren't in there? I mean is >there a reason behind it, or is it just one of those "nobody's bothered >yet" kinda things? The fs and gs registers are not saves on the stack by the processor except in VM86 mode. We have some support for that, as announced on -emulation several times, but it's not perfect, and, frankly, the interest level has not seemed worth the effort we've put into it. (The learning we all got from it has probably been worth it :).) (Before I get a dozen people saying, "Hey, I'm interested" -- it won't run 32-bit programs, which means it won't run most Windows binaries. Most of the OpenDOS programs I've tried seem to work, but not all, and we have very mixed success with "real programs." of course, part of that is because it's *hard* to find DOS-only "real programs" these days! But if you do think you're interested, some 2.2-relative patches are on freefall.cdrom.com:~ftp/pub/sef.) Sean. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 21:17:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00963 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00958 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA18754; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:17:12 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:17:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704180417.WAA18754@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Tom Wadlow Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interesting problem In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.26 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've run into an interesting problem in installing FreeBSD 2.2.1 on an > the following system: You're using the PAO stuff since the sn0 device isn't supported out of the box w/normal FreeBSD. You're best bet is to send mail to the mobile list and see if you can get Tatsumi-san to respond, since the problems you are having a specific to the PAO stuff. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 21:25:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA01277 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p7.tfs.net [206.154.183.199]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01270 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA17212; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:26:04 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704180426.XAA17212@argus> Subject: SyJet -vs- Jazz To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:26:03 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704180309.MAA21105@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 18, 97 12:39:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Jim Bryant stands accused of saying: > > has anyone done a side by side comparison of SyJet [1.5G] and Jazz > > [1G] using bonnie or iozone using ahc? given that they are the same > > price here [$399 internal, $120-129/cart], i'm leaning towards the > > SyJet... i've also heard that the flap/door thing on the Jazz > > internal model is really flimsy too, plus the SyJet claims faster > > real-life sustained throughput ["up to 7 M/S", that's as good as or > > better than my 2G scsi-2 barracuda]... > > I haven't busted the door on my Jazz yet, and it gets quite a lot of > use. OTOH, I've had one cart die on me (media error) and another grow > at least one defect (I'm not sure if it's successfully mapped it, > although it claims to do ARRE and AWRE). > > I haven't had a chance to play with a SyJet yet, but I would suspect > that their 7M/sec "sustained" is SCSI throughput, not media > throughput. they claim that the scsi xfer rate is 20M... [up to] 7M is what they claim for ACTUAL.. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 21:43:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA01923 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01917 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA23105; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:11:44 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704180441.OAA23105@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704180331.UAA01522@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Apr 17, 97 08:31:24 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:11:44 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > I am just looking for a technical solution yes I can go and look around > the kernel sources. I just thought that maybe and just maybe one of > you guys knew how to do it . Guess not. Uh, well I do, because I've done it, but it's much easier just to say "go do it like ktrace does", because that's how I did it. In the end I decided that I had to massage the data too much though, so I gave in and went for a userland solution. I don't know how much data you're actually moving, but I appreciate that what you basically want is just to dump already-synced frame data to disk. You haven't said, yet, whether you want it in files, or are willing to deal with digging it out of raw disk partitions at some later date. The latter I haven't done, but I have played with raw disk access in the kernel previously; there are various pros and cons to do with that approach that I assumed you would already know about. > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 21:49:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02358 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02348 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id NAA15795; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:49:24 +0900 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:49:24 +0900 Message-Id: <199704180449.NAA15795@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: wadlow@pilot.net Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: Interesting problem In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:04 -0700 (PDT)". From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.20] 1996-12/08(Sun) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article wadlow@pilot.net writes: >> I supply "up" as an additional ifconfig argument in the network part. So >> far so good. It begins the installation. Meanwhile, on my Sun, I've got >> a "ping -s" going to the laptop. It is showing delay times of 250-1500 >> milliseconds. My Sun and the laptop are on the same segment. A ping to >> another machine on the same segment shows 0 msec delays. A ping to the >> Linux running on the '30H, with the same Megahertz card and same Ethernet >> cable shows 0 msec. But hell, it's working, so I proceed. Does your laptop have a sourdcard or something confilcts with the IRQ you specified as the free IRQ pool for PC-cards? -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi Network Technology Center, Keio University, Tokyo, Japan hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 21:56:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02776 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [206.222.77.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02771 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA01277; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970418005101.46732@vinyl.quickweb.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:51:01 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Michael Smith Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freeBSD.org Subject: Re: Any interest in parallel-port Zip drive support for FreeBSD? References: <373.861323829@time.cdrom.com> <199704180259.MAA21069@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <199704180259.MAA21069@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 12:29:03PM +0930 Sender: owner-hackers@freeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 12:29:03PM +0930, Michael Smith wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > http://www.prism.uvsq.fr/~son/ppa3.html > > > > It's apparently very slow, but functional. > > There's also been some discussion (I think it was on -hackers) with > people who were using this on both 2.2 and 2.1-vintage systems, > and someone had a slightly cleaned-up version they were using. > > I had hoped to get my hands on one to test it with, or to hear back > from the original correspondent to confirm they were happy, but > neither happened. It certainly works as far as I know. At any rate, it's certainly worth looking into. The ZIP drives are very handy, and although I use a SCSI model, the Parallel ones are wildy popular. Anyone know what type Micron and Compaq have started to ship with their PCs?? ZIP certainly seems to have become the de Facto standard, so PPA support would be cool. -Mark > > > Jordan > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com RingZero Comp. http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark finger mark@quickweb.com for my PGP key and GCS code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be thought incapable. -Sir Peter Imbert From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 22:07:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03266 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03261 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA02579; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:06:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Michael Smith cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any interest in parallel-port Zip drive support for FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:29:03 +0930." <199704180259.MAA21069@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:06:54 -0700 Message-ID: <2577.861340014@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I had hoped to get my hands on one to test it with, or to hear back > from the original correspondent to confirm they were happy, but > neither happened. It certainly works as far as I know. Hands on what? The driver or one of these devices? I can have you sent a parallel port zip drive if you want to become the driver maintainer. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 22:10:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03457 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.172.25.144]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03452 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA15565; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:09:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: "David S. Miller" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704180132.VAA03470@jenolan.caipgeneral> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, David S. Miller wrote: > I thought a year or so ago CMU CS departments decided that NetBSD or > similar would be used in some form for OS classes and/or research, or > something like this. Has the situation changed? I visited CMU about 3 months ago and a majority of their public labs were Linux/NT dual boot. /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 22:19:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03639 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03634 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 22:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id FAA01005; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 05:19:18 GMT Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:19:18 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock Reply-To: Michael Hancock To: Chris Csanady cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Accomodating Terry (was Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code?) In-Reply-To: <199704170606.BAA10948@nyx.pr.mcs.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Chris Csanady wrote: > > >1) Since FreeBSD is not a democracy, we should all agree on technical > >terms to arrange this problem. There is this fs list that has almost no > >volume of use, so I guess we have seen little technical arguments. > > Speaking of the relative inactivity on the filesystems list, I find it > ironic that we have not found a way to integrate Terry's work yet. He > seems to be one of the few people that has a grasp of all the issues > involved, and has tried to fix some of them. I seriously doubt that > Terry has anything but good intentions. From all the posts and email I > have seen from him, I'd have to say that he is fairly experienced > when it comes to filesystems and SMP, and has proposed some valuable I don't know, maybe Terry needs to read C.A.Hoare's Turing award speech "The Humble Programmer". Terry is very confident and probably rightly so, but over-confident programmers are often percieved as programmers who, though highly skilled, potentially make big mistakes and this probably leads to such wide spread distrust. I've campaigned in private e-mail for Terry to work on a separate branch of the CVS repository and the chief architect and others in core were open to the idea. This was a time when Terry was on the mailing lists venting vitriolic remarks against USRG. Terry continued with his public diatribes and self promotion during the discussion so I just assumed that the separate branch stategy wouldn't fly. Freebsd-Current seems to be the only place Terry will accept for his patches and anything other than current is considered an insult. I could be wrong, its probably something more complex. Terry is very knowledgeable about filesystems, but he isn't always right. While he often admits he isn't always right, with incredible energy he will usually argue his position to seemingly no end. If you are going to try to stand toe to toe with Terry over an issue you need to be able to follow him through various meta levels of the discussion topic and frequently to abstract jumpspace. On the evolutionary vs. revolutionary scale Terry is on the revolutionary side of things. Most core members are on the evolutionary side of things and this is why the things like the SMP work is done in a separate branch. It is desirable that large changes are reviewed by others before they are committed to the Current. Reviewing Terry's changes is no small task and would be very time consuming for any involved because there aren't enough fs experts around. Reviews are an excellent means to have an effective system of checks and balances in place to ensure the highest quality code. If Terry had a separate branch to work in the reviews could be relaxed and he could work at full speed at some cost to the quality of the end result. However, I think there are people interested to track the tree and offer testing time. I'm very interested in seeing what Terry comes up with. We have excellent tools such as CVS and CVSup and though they are not perfect I think they can be used to accomodate people sitting on opposite sides of the evolution vs. revolution poles. Can we do the new fs technology branch or does somebody have a better idea? More importantly. Terry, are you even willing to work in a separate branch of the repository or is Current the only thing acceptable? Regards, Mike Hancock -- Speaking for myself, a bystander. Please do not take this as the opinion of someone representing the FreeBSD organization. From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 23:19:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06445 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06432 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA09892; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:21:26 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:21:26 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: dennis cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417182959.00b2e9c0@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [some snipping of CC:-s done] On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > At 06:26 PM 4/17/97 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > >> > database server. And you'd need a growth path beyond uniprocessor > >> > Intel, which > >> > free UNIXen (including Linux, as far as I'm concerned) don't have now. > >> > >> freebsd doesn't have multiple intel processor support? > >> is this true? > > > > nope, SMP support is alive and well in 3.0+. I believe its > >integrated as part of 3.0+...isn't it? But we've had SMP capabilities > >through patches since at least 2.2 > > Great. So the most powerful boxes can only be used by hackers and > not for any serious commercial purpose requiring stablilty.......didnt > we just have a (rather heated) discussion about this? The SMP work is anything but ready. You would most likely want to use it in production work yet :-) Last I checked it was not even merged back into -current. Sander > > db > > > >Marc G. Fournier > >Systems Administrator @ hub.org > >primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: > scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > > > > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 23:22:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06622 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA06612 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wI746-0004ij-00; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:22:34 -0600 To: Michael Smith Subject: Re: optical drives Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:39:46 +0930." <199704180309.MAA21105@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <199704180309.MAA21105@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:22:33 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199704180309.MAA21105@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes: : I haven't busted the door on my Jazz yet, and it gets quite a lot of : use. OTOH, I've had one cart die on me (media error) and another grow : at least one defect (I'm not sure if it's successfully mapped it, : although it claims to do ARRE and AWRE). I've had similar experiences. dump 0f /dev/rst0 /jaz ; scsiformat /jaz ; fdisk ; disklabel ; newfs /jaz mount /jaz ; restore -rf /dev/rst0 fixed it. Warner From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 23:27:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06843 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.34.47]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06837 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmacd@localhost) by paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.3/8.8.2) id XAA15953 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:27:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Josh MacDonald Message-Id: <199704180627.XAA15953@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: O_EXCL Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In the man page for open, it says that O_EXCL causes symlinks not to be followed. However, when I was reading the code, I found that its broken. In the open syscall, it does NDINIT with the FOLLOW flag already set, and then in vn_open, which is called shortly thereafter with the nameidata struct, it does: if ((fmode & O_EXCL) == 0) ndp->.... |= FOLLOW;\ It looks to me like its broken, and either it should be fixed with the trivial fix, or the documentation for open fixed. -josh From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 23:31:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA07057 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07051 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id QAA01473; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:26:46 +1000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:26:46 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704180626.QAA01473@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: jbryant@tfs.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: optical drives Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Jim Bryant stands accused of saying: >> >> btw: take note of the 128M disktab i put in my last posting on this >> topic... it might go nicely in the /etc/disktab next to mo230 for the >> dist... i had to buy a 128M disk once when the store was out of 230s, >> and added that one to disktab recently... it seems to work, as i >> moved my IEN/RFC collection to it to free up space on a 230M... > >Putting disktab entries in for most disks is pointless; the 'auto' type >will work unless the driver can't get the disk's size right. This reminds me that someone with a thick skin/mailbox should remove the existing zip100 and mo230 entries in src/etc/etc.i386/disktab. The zip100 entry is pointless because it only works in cases where `auto' would work, i.e., for whole disks that don't have have Iomega's default partitioning (you have to clear the partition table to use this entry). The mo230 entry is pointless because it only works for Jim's default partitioning (you probably have to change the partition table to use this entry). `auto' is pointless for similar reasons. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 17 23:59:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA11361 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.80.6.147]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11338 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from well.com (spidaman@well.com [206.15.64.10]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA28130; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:58:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Kallen To: Michael Smith cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any interest in parallel-port Zip drive support for FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199704180259.MAA21069@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My laptop (Dell XPi) has 2.2.1, PAO and the Zip stuff and it works. The IBM drive I have is only 800 megs so having a "big floppy" with a UNIX filesystem provides a level of comfort there. On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > http://www.prism.uvsq.fr/~son/ppa3.html > > > > It's apparently very slow, but functional. > > There's also been some discussion (I think it was on -hackers) with > people who were using this on both 2.2 and 2.1-vintage systems, > and someone had a slightly cleaned-up version they were using. > > I had hoped to get my hands on one to test it with, or to hear back > from the original correspondent to confirm they were happy, but > neither happened. It certainly works as far as I know. > > > Jordan > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > > The next interface will not be another desktop metaphor.... Ian Kallen .... http://www.well.com/user/spidaman/ ....the revolution will not be televised. ===== TO RECEIVE MY PGP KEY, SEND MAIL TO spidey-pgp-info@well.com ======= From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 00:11:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA14247 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13922 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:10:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p0.hai.siemens.co.at (root@[10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22915 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:02:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from zerberus.hai.siemens.co.at by p0.hai.siemens.co.at with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #7 for ) id m0wI7gf-00073tC; Fri, 18 Apr 97 09:02 MET DST Received: from zerberus (localhost) by zerberus.hai.siemens.co.at (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10943; Fri, 18 Apr 97 08:28:20 +0200 Message-Id: <33571483.41C67EA6@zerberus.hai.siemens.co.at> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:28:19 +0200 From: Helmut Wirth Organization: Siemens AG. Österreich X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.4 sun4c) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any interest in parallel-port Zip drive support for FreeBSD? References: <373.861323829@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > http://www.prism.uvsq.fr/~son/ppa3.html > > It's apparently very slow, but functional. > > Jordan Hello, I think I have seen this driver. I would be interested if the driver were incorporated into the line printer driver. As it is it is impossible to print while using this driver. I would need two different kernels, one to support my ZIP and one to support the printer. For this reason I did not use the driver. -- Helmut F. Wirth --------------- E-mail: hfwirth@ping.at E-mail (at work): wirth@zerberus.hai.siemens.co.at Tel. : +43-1-1707-37610 (at work) FAX : +43-1-1707-57602 (at work) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 00:45:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA17129 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA17122 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA24693; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:15:36 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704180745.RAA24693@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: optical drives In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh at "Apr 18, 97 00:22:33 am" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:15:36 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Warner Losh stands accused of saying: > In message <199704180309.MAA21105@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes: > : I haven't busted the door on my Jazz yet, and it gets quite a lot of > : use. OTOH, I've had one cart die on me (media error) and another grow > : at least one defect (I'm not sure if it's successfully mapped it, > : although it claims to do ARRE and AWRE). > > I've had similar experiences. > > dump 0f /dev/rst0 /jaz ; scsiformat /jaz ; fdisk ; disklabel ; newfs /jaz > mount /jaz ; restore -rf /dev/rst0 > > fixed it. Mine refused to read the filesystem (bad blocks in the metadata), but the disk was expendable (scratch disk). However, it would fail a low-level SCSI format command, so I was fairly sure it was _toast_. > Warner > -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 01:40:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA19088 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA19081 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 01:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id SAA06070; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:39:36 +1000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:39:36 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704180839.SAA06070@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, j@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: optical drives Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >> (ahc0:1:0): "IBM MTA-3230TC2210!B 0" type 0 removable SCSI 2 >> >> sd1(ahc0:1:0): Direct-Access 217MB (446325 512 byte sectors) >> >> sd1(ahc0:1:0): with 17934 cyls, 1 heads, and an average 24 sectors/track >> >> A very tall drive :-). > >Nope, why? MOs are indeed one head any many many cylinders. My 650 Oops. I confused heads with cylinders. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 02:09:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA20636 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA20631 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.2) id TAA05640; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:06:53 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19970418190653.32612@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:06:53 +1000 From: David Dawes To: Terry Lambert Cc: Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-Hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Printing IBM chars References: <199704172256.PAA00665@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199704172256.PAA00665@phaeton.artisoft.com>; from Terry Lambert on Thu, Apr 17, 1997 at 03:56:00PM -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Apr 17, 1997 at 03:56:00PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >> I have some text which has been formatted for a IBM printer -- you know, >> with the characters that form line graphics. I want to print it, but I >> want it to print with the lines, not with odd control character >> replacements. Anyone know how I could convert it? If I could display it >> on an X11 screen, I could print a screen dump (yucky looking, but better >> than nothing). Hmm? > >Heh. I think I know the text... > >You need to use a PC font for your xterm; I've made a couple in the >past for things like an SCO console and Wyse60 emulating Xterm, but >I haven't played with that stuff in a long time. I'm sure there's >got to be one out there somewhere... > >I've looked through all the default fonts and all the international >add-ons, and I couldn't find one. Try on ftp.x.org in contrib. There is a vga.bdf file in the XFree86 source (it doesn't get installed though, so it isn't in the binary dists). This is a PC font suitable for use in an xterm. It can be found at: ftp://ftp.xfree86.org/pub/XFree86/3.2/untarred/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/etc/vga.bdf It should also be in the X11R6.3 untarred tree on ftp.x.org. David From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 02:22:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA21132 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdhack@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA21123 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 02:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdhack@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) id MAA13772; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:22:27 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199704180922.MAA13772@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? In-Reply-To: <199704171016.GAA03221@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at "Apr 17, 97 06:16:55 am" To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:22:27 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: spidaman@well.com, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > yeah, if it'd be possible to get xfs to freebsd, i'd die > happily... but, question is, is it? > XFS is SGI's bread and butter, if you write a freely available version > of it you'd: figured. bummer. =( it's too bad sgi feels so insecure about their position in comp world... *wink* *wink* mickey From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 03:15:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22597 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22586 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16977; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:01:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704181001.GAA16977@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704172335.QAA02492@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Apr 17, 97 04:35:04 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:01:17 -0400 (EDT) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We need a very fast mechanism to store images to disk. Suggestions? You need to provide more info because the problem is different based on how much you're trying to store to disk, and whether it should be a normal UFS file system, etc. To do this completely you're going to have to look at your requirements (trigger condition, latency to start, latency between blocks, block size, throughput, and maximum length of run), and based on this possibly do as much as: Pre-allocate the file; pre-allocate the blocks of a file; pre-set up some control info for a transfer, mmap a set of blocks for the video card driver to dump data into; have the driver chain to the next block and interrupt you on each transfer, dump the video frames to the pre-allocated store. If you have the P1003.1b-1993 spec you'll find a proposed (not standard) real time file interface (look for the "rf_" stuff) in the back with a proposed API. However, if the rates are low enough and the pentium and bus fast enough you can do as little as to provide multiple mmapd buffers that the video driver will chain through and a SIGUSR to the logging process that dumps frames of collected data to disk through the file system - nothing fancy. This isn't synchronous because the driver is chaining to the next block at "frame done" interrupt time giving you the elasticity you need. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 03:30:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA23221 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA23209 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ben@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA08818; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 03:29:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Snob Art Genre To: "David S. Miller" cc: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <199704180132.VAA03470@jenolan.caipgeneral> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, David S. Miller wrote: > I thought a year or so ago CMU CS departments decided that NetBSD or > similar would be used in some form for OS classes and/or research, or > something like this. Has the situation changed? Harvey Mudd College (if anyone cares) is using NetBSD in a system administration class, as well as Solaris. And I heard from a sysadmin there that their next batch of web server machines will be FreeBSD boxes, instead of the Solaris/SPARCs they've bought up until now. > David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 04:16:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA25404 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA25399 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id MAA08439; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:21:17 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199704181021.MAA08439@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? To: dufault@hda.com (Peter Dufault) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:21:16 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704181001.GAA16977@hda.hda.com> from "Peter Dufault" at Apr 18, 97 06:00:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Pre-allocate the file; pre-allocate the blocks of a file; pre-set > up some control info for a transfer, mmap a set of blocks for the > video card driver to dump data into; have the driver chain to the > next block and interrupt you on each transfer, dump the video frames > to the pre-allocated store. and probably, in addition to preallocation, make sure that your write() calls are aligned to the FS/device blocksize otherwise (probably) each write will be preceeded by a hidden read to take care of fragmentation ? Luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 04:20:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA25670 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA25644 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA04704; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704181119.EAA04704@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Peter Dufault cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:01:17 EDT." <199704181001.GAA16977@hda.hda.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:19:52 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Lets see, We can capture video in different formats: yuv9, yuv12, rgb16, rgb24, rgb32, 8bit grayscale. The size of the frames can be specified by the user to be anywhere between 160x140 to 640x480 or PAL resolution. What I am thinking that will be useful is to capture yuv12 which can be used for mpeg or h.263 encoding. yuv12 is : x*y + 2(x/2 * y/2). We can daisy chain buffers in physical memory pending upon the resolution and the amount of memory available for the system. A good resolution for mpeg is 320x240 30 frames/sec for yuv12 that translates to 3456000 bytes/sec so lets called it 3.5MB/sec substain thruput. How many frames should I store in memory in order to realize such thruput? (scsi disk recommendations for video recording are welcome 8) ) I get a frame every 1/30 of second. Someone once dubbed the multmedia hackers as "lizards" I think we are more like Jelly Beans http://multiverse.com/~rhh/fxtv/index.html#ThePic 8) Tnks, Amancio >From The Desk Of Peter Dufault : > > We need a very fast mechanism to store images to disk. Suggestions? > > You need to provide more info because the problem is different > based on how much you're trying to store to disk, and whether it > should be a normal UFS file system, etc. > > To do this completely you're going to have to look at your requirements > (trigger condition, latency to start, latency between blocks, block > size, throughput, and maximum length of run), and based on this > possibly do as much as: > > Pre-allocate the file; pre-allocate the blocks of a file; pre-set > up some control info for a transfer, mmap a set of blocks for the > video card driver to dump data into; have the driver chain to the > next block and interrupt you on each transfer, dump the video frames > to the pre-allocated store. > > If you have the P1003.1b-1993 spec you'll find a proposed (not > standard) real time file interface (look for the "rf_" stuff) in > the back with a proposed API. > > However, if the rates are low enough and the pentium and bus fast > enough you can do as little as to provide multiple mmapd buffers > that the video driver will chain through and a SIGUSR to the logging > process that dumps frames of collected data to disk through the > file system - nothing fancy. This isn't synchronous because the > driver is chaining to the next block at "frame done" interrupt time > giving you the elasticity you need. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation > HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 04:26:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA26595 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA26590 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA17117; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:12:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704181112.HAA17117@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704181021.MAA08439@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from Luigi Rizzo at "Apr 18, 97 12:21:16 pm" To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:12:55 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Pre-allocate the file; pre-allocate the blocks of a file; pre-set > > up some control info for a transfer, mmap a set of blocks for the > > video card driver to dump data into; have the driver chain to the > > next block and interrupt you on each transfer, dump the video frames > > to the pre-allocated store. > > and probably, in addition to preallocation, make sure that your write() > calls are aligned to the FS/device blocksize otherwise (probably) each > write will be preceeded by a hidden read to take care of fragmentation ? Or you'll get an EIO somewhere along the line when you try to do the unaligned access. Amancio is trying to avoid the buffer copy inherent in going through the buffer cache - I'm waiting to see what his numbers are to see if he has to do that or it just hurts his sense of system utilization to not do it. About the only way I can think of easily doing what he wants is some method of getting back a list of block numbers corresponding to the blocks of a pre-allocated file and then doing a writev to the raw device. I'd want that file system to be a dedicated file system. You could probably hack up something based on the rf_ pages with that in mind. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 04:37:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA27035 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA26983 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id MAA08521; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:44:39 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199704181044.MAA08521@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? To: dufault@hda.com (Peter Dufault) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:44:39 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704181112.HAA17117@hda.hda.com> from "Peter Dufault" at Apr 18, 97 07:12:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > and probably, in addition to preallocation, make sure that your write() > > calls are aligned to the FS/device blocksize otherwise (probably) each > > write will be preceeded by a hidden read to take care of fragmentation ? > > Or you'll get an EIO somewhere along the line when you try to do > the unaligned access. Amancio is trying to avoid the buffer copy > inherent in going through the buffer cache - I'm waiting to see > what his numbers are to see if he has to do that or it just hurts > his sense of system utilization to not do it. About the only way probably the latter :) I have IDE disks (WD Caviar) streming files at about 3MB/s (sustained over about 10 minutes) with a Pentium 133 running "tv" at the same time. Even if the raw disk speed would go up to 10MB/s I doubt the copy overhead would barely slow down the process on a PPro. Luigi From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 04:44:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA27465 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA27455 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id NAA03625 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:44:40 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04363; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:33:25 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418133325.LX44496@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:33:25 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Any interest in parallel-port Zip drive support for FreeBSD? References: <373.861323829@time.cdrom.com> <33571483.41C67EA6@zerberus.hai.siemens.co.at> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <33571483.41C67EA6@zerberus.hai.siemens.co.at>; from Helmut Wirth on Apr 18, 1997 08:28:19 +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Helmut Wirth wrote: > I would need two > different kernels, one to support my ZIP and one to support the > printer. For this reason I did not use the driver. That's not really necessary, i think. You should at least be able to have one kernel with both, where one of them is disabled by default. By booting with -c, you should then be able to select what you want. However, you're right, the arbitration between both drivers didn't look very well last time i've been looking. That's why i wrote here that a sort of ppa(4) controller driver should be written (name shamelessly borrowed from AIX, `parallel port adapter'), with lpt(4), lp(4) and zip(4) layered on top. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 04:56:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA27870 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA27865 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA17161; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:44:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704181144.HAA17161@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704181119.EAA04704@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Apr 18, 97 04:19:52 am" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Lets see, > We can daisy chain buffers in physical memory pending upon the resolution > and the amount of memory available for the system. > > A good resolution for mpeg is 320x240 30 frames/sec for yuv12 that translates > to 3456000 bytes/sec so lets called it 3.5MB/sec substain thruput. What kind of performance can you get now through the file system to your disks? On my not-fancy system I see 1974857/sec saving 30 seconds of "video" at a block size of 3456000 to a Fujitsu disk. (dd if=/dev/zero of=/sd1/A/foo bs=3456000 count=30). Note that I've optimized nothing. Since you can apparently collect the video into a suitably aligned user buffer and I assume that there is some FIFO on the board to give you some time to reprogram at frame done interrupt time, a simple driver with no double buffering other than a regular start queue (so that the done interrupt has a place to store incoming data in), "team", and "dd" may be all you need to store video through the file system on a lightly loaded fast system. It will provide a starting point to see where to focus our efforts, and "dd if=/dev/yuv12 of=~/clip.yuv" is a good interface to support even if only for debugging. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 04:59:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA27963 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA27958 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 04:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA25353; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:20:41 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704181150.VAA25353@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704181021.MAA08439@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from Luigi Rizzo at "Apr 18, 97 12:21:16 pm" To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:20:41 +0930 (CST) Cc: dufault@hda.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Luigi Rizzo stands accused of saying: > > and probably, in addition to preallocation, make sure that your write() > calls are aligned to the FS/device blocksize otherwise (probably) each > write will be preceeded by a hidden read to take care of fragmentation ? Not too much of a hit if the previous partial block is still in the cache, though. > Luigi -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 05:31:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA29892 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 05:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA29887 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 05:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) id OAA08148; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:28:52 +0200 (MET DST) From: Eivind Eklund Message-Id: <199704181228.OAA08148@nic.follonett.no> Subject: Re: Installation To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:28:52 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19970418133949.YI30157@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 18, 97 01:39:49 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Jamie wrote: > > > Anyway, after I exit the kernal config, the screen goes blank and nothing > > happens. > > Add flags 0x1 to the device npx0. This will turn of the optimized > pentium bcopy(), IIRC. However, it will also make config not accept your kernel description file - at least, this happened for a RELENG_2_2 build I attempted from the sourcetree as of Thursday early morning (4 AM) GMT. Removing the flags 0x1 made it build; however, I recommend against trying to make release on a 2940 on RELENG_2_2 right now. (Several people are working on getting this fixed.) Apart from "make release" it seems to work fairly well. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 05:54:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA00843 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 05:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www3.mail2.cybernet.dk (elvis.cybernet.dk [193.227.192.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA00826 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 05:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cphppp121.cybernet.dk (cphppp121.cybernet.dk [193.227.192.121]) by www3.mail2.cybernet.dk (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ea009832 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:54:33 +0200 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Henrik Andersen" To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:51:19 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Reply-to: Henrik Andersen Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199704181228.OAA08148@nic.follonett.no> References: <19970418133949.YI30157@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 18, 97 01:39:49 pm" X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Message-Id: <12543375200053@mail2.cybernet.dk> Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 06:06:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA01237 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [206.28.134.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01232 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [206.28.134.6]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21146 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13612 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:06:39 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: optical drives In-Reply-To: <199704180309.MAA21105@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > has anyone done a side by side comparison of SyJet [1.5G] and Jaz? > > I haven't busted the door on my Jazz yet, and it gets quite a lot of > use. OTOH, I've had one cart die on me (media error) and another grow > at least one defect (I'm not sure if it's successfully mapped it, > although it claims to do ARRE and AWRE). > I have a jaz drive and I LOVE IT! By turning off my IDE hard drives, I can boot it just like a C: drive, which means I have cartridges for my various OSes, from DOS to FreeBSD. Oddly, I have had a couple of cartridges go bad on me, too, although one was my fault; on the plus side, I can tell you that your jaz drive will survive a fall of about one meter to the floor. The cartridge inside, however, will be toasted. As far as SyQeust's offerings go, their media is not as ubiquitous as iomega's. I can buy jaz cartridges anywhere--Lechmere, Circuit City, you name it. Also, their drive line has been through several changes, and they've dropped support for some of their models (like the EZ-135) leaving many customers (like me) stranded. From what I've seen, performance looks too close to pick nits. Choose your path wisely. Peace, K.S. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 06:13:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA01449 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01444 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA25579; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:41:28 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704181311.WAA25579@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704181119.EAA04704@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Apr 18, 97 04:19:52 am" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:41:27 +0930 (CST) Cc: dufault@hda.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying: > > We can daisy chain buffers in physical memory pending upon the resolution > and the amount of memory available for the system. > > A good resolution for mpeg is 320x240 30 frames/sec for yuv12 that translates > to 3456000 bytes/sec so lets called it 3.5MB/sec substain thruput. Proposal #1: Ok, so let's be really aggressive and say that you've configured the system for heavy-duty video recording. You need to sustain 3.5M/sec; a good SCSI subsystem can perhaps double that on a clear day, so allow yourself a 10M ringbuffer for acquisition; if you get more than a couple seconds behind I would expect you've got more problems than you want to know about. > How many frames should I store in memory in order to realize such thruput? > (scsi disk recommendations for video recording are welcome 8) ) > I get a frame every 1/30 of second. As suggested, I'd start with a couple of seconds of slack, to cover things like paging storms, soft write errors, etc., and basically write just as fast as you can. Your performance is going to vary lots depending on your system/disk/load profile, so it's difficult to be terribly explicit about numbers without lots of experimentation. You might want to think about frame-skipping heuristics in an attempt to deal with systems that weren't keeping up; that would probably be better than anything else I can think of right now. 8) Proposal #2: Stuff this whole files-and-filesystems thing. Pass a major/minor pair in to your device driver and teach it to use the low-level disk interface functions to write directly to regions on the disk. The latter approach, naturally, means more work, but you get to escape all the filesystem gumpf and get as close to the maximum throughput as you can; you end up with something more like a dedicated harddisk recorder. How serious about it do you expect your users to be? Are they likely to bite at repartitioning their disks? If I follow your inferences correctly, you want to add VCR-like functionality to something like fxtv, correct? In that case, you probably want to use regular files, and because recording is likely to be a spontaneous activity, you wouldn't be able to do much in the way of planning ahead, so you're going to be fairly-much dependant on getting the data to the filesystem as quickly as possible. > Amancio -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 06:21:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA02030 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA02013 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id XAA14402; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:17:34 +1000 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:17:34 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704181317.XAA14402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: eivind@nic.follonett.no, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: Installation Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Add flags 0x1 to the device npx0. This will turn of the optimized >> pentium bcopy(), IIRC. > >However, it will also make config not accept your kernel description file - >at least, this happened for a RELENG_2_2 build I attempted from the >sourcetree as of Thursday early morning (4 AM) GMT. That's probably because you added the flags in a non-syntactical place. The syntax for `vector ...' is at best obscure. I'm only sure that putting `vector xxxintr' last works. See LINT for a correct place to put the npx0 flags. See GENERIC in RELENG_2_2 for an incorrect place. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 06:48:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA03244 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA03239 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from truk.brandinnovators.com (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 8919 on Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:48:37 +0200; id PAA08919 efrom: hans@truk.brandinnovators.com; eto: hackers@freebsd.org Received: by truk.brandinnovators.com (8.7.5/BI96070101) for <> id JAA28593; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:55:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199704180755.JAA28593@truk.brandinnovators.com> From: hans@brandinnovators.com (Hans Zuidam) Subject: Re: Any interest in parallel-port Zip drive support for FreeBSD? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:55:53 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <19970418034443.PL06012@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 18, 97 03:44:43 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > J Wunsch wrote: > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > http://www.prism.uvsq.fr/~son/ppa3.html > > It's apparently very slow, but functional. > The biggest problem with this driver is that the architecture of the > parallel port driver is now totally clumsy. It has already been > problematical to add the PLIP functionality, but now with the ZIP > driver, all bets are off. Maybe the parallel port (lpt) driver needs a lptsw[] like the tty driver's linew[]? Regards, Hans -- H. Zuidam E-Mail: hans@brandinnovators.com Brand Innovators B.V. P-Mail: P.O. Box 1377 de Pinckart 54 5602 BJ Eindhoven, The Netherlands 5674 CC Nuenen Tel. +31 40 2631134, Fax. +31 40 2831138 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 07:05:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07540 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07525 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA00503; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:04:40 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:04:40 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Bruce Evans cc: eivind@nic.follonett.no, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installation In-Reply-To: <199704181317.XAA14402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Bruce Evans wrote: > >> Add flags 0x1 to the device npx0. This will turn of the optimized > >> pentium bcopy(), IIRC. > > > >However, it will also make config not accept your kernel description file - > >at least, this happened for a RELENG_2_2 build I attempted from the > >sourcetree as of Thursday early morning (4 AM) GMT. > > That's probably because you added the flags in a non-syntactical place. > The syntax for `vector ...' is at best obscure. I'm only sure that > putting `vector xxxintr' last works. See LINT for a correct place to > put the npx0 flags. See GENERIC in RELENG_2_2 for an incorrect place. Why on earth is there a vector keyword in the first place? Why isn't the interrupt picked up from the driver like all the other entry points? -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 07:07:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07886 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07879 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20846; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:07:04 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:07:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704181407.IAA20846@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Bruce Evans Cc: eivind@nic.follonett.no, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installation In-Reply-To: <199704181317.XAA14402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> References: <199704181317.XAA14402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Add flags 0x1 to the device npx0. This will turn of the optimized > >> pentium bcopy(), IIRC. > > > >However, it will also make config not accept your kernel description file - > >at least, this happened for a RELENG_2_2 build I attempted from the > >sourcetree as of Thursday early morning (4 AM) GMT. > > That's probably because you added the flags in a non-syntactical place. > The syntax for `vector ...' is at best obscure. I'm only sure that > putting `vector xxxintr' last works. See LINT for a correct place to > put the npx0 flags. See GENERIC in RELENG_2_2 for an incorrect place. I just fixed this in RELENG_2_2. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 07:24:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA08893 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA08882 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA02949; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418102217.00b5c400@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:22:27 -0400 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: The Hermit Hacker , Alfred Perlstein , James Mansion , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 04:33 PM 4/17/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Great. So the most powerful boxes can only be used by hackers and >> not for any serious commercial purpose requiring stablilty.......didnt >> we just have a (rather heated) discussion about this? > >You're overly impatient. Wait (no more than) 90 days and watch for >announcements. > Why is this "annoucement" such a big secret? Are you just not sure yet? You complain about no commercial vendors not being interested in FreeBSD, and then you give us this horsecrap about "wait 90 days for the big unveiling..." Are you announcing 3.0R availability, in which case we're wasting our time integrating the current release? or will it be integrated in 2.2x? Or will there be a multiple release nightmare? Why dont you tell us so we can plan....you cant market a product using freebsd is you dont know what the damn plan is. Setting up basic marketing takes more than 90 days... Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 07:24:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA08988 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cobber.cord.edu (cobber.cord.edu [138.129.1.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA08977 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by cobber.cord.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24683; Fri, 18 Apr 97 09:16:05 CDT Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:14:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Kyle Mestery Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: Snob Art Genre Cc: "David S. Miller" , durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Harvey Mudd College (if anyone cares) is using NetBSD in a system > administration class, as well as Solaris. And I heard from a sysadmin > there that their next batch of web server machines will be FreeBSD boxes, > instead of the Solaris/SPARCs they've bought up until now. If it matters, here at Concordia College in Moorhead, Minnesota, myself and a friend, along with one faculty member, took it upon ourselves to integrate FreeBSD into the networking class. The professor required students teamed as two or three to install FreeBSD and admin it for a while. The class was basically an introduction to networking and system administration. > > > David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ >< > > > > Ben > > "You have your mind on computers, it seems." > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kyle A.D. Mestery | --* POWERED BY FREEBSD *-- 1901 20th St. S #4 | Network Support Specialist Moorhead, MN 56560 | Concordia College, Moorhead, MN 218-236-6359 | "My other computer runs UNIX also" -TJ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 07:47:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10240 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10232 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id AAA17207; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:43:19 +1000 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:43:19 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199704181443.AAA17207@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: bde@zeta.org.au, dfr@nlsystems.com Subject: Re: Installation Cc: eivind@nic.follonett.no, hackers@FreeBSD.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Why on earth is there a vector keyword in the first place? Why isn't the >interrupt picked up from the driver like all the other entry points? Why not? It's more flexible. smm/02.config says that the vector "must be given explicitly" but doesn't say why. I got tired of the modularity problems that it causes and will be nuking it soon. Bruce From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 07:59:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10748 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10743 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA29802; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:58:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Bruce Evans cc: eivind@nic.follonett.no, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installation In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:17:34 +1000." <199704181317.XAA14402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:58:34 -0700 Message-ID: <29800.861375514@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > putting `vector xxxintr' last works. See LINT for a correct place to > put the npx0 flags. See GENERIC in RELENG_2_2 for an incorrect place. Ya know, Bruce, a direct "hey, this is wrong!" works just as well as this kind of oblique reference and it doesn't take as long, either. :-) Changed. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 08:07:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11109 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11102 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (perlsta@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA22877; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:07:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Brian N. Handy" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Card Q In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hey folks, > > I'm trying to put together a new zoomy P6-based system, and I want a good > video card...and I'm at a loss for what's better than what. Since I want > 24-bit color I'll probably be running the XiG server, so absolute solid > XFree86 drivers aren't necessarily of great importance... > > Any advice on what a good card would be? Right now I'm trying to decide > between the #9FX 772 and the #9FX 771 cards. The obvious difference seems > to be one supports "interlaced" and the other supports "sync on green". > One uses the S3 Virge/VX chip and the other...S3 Vision968. so far the best i've seen has been the Matrox Millenium make sure your X server totatally supports it's acceleration and you should be very happy. check out thier site: http://www.mga.com/ i don't haev one but from what i've heard..... good luck... perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 08:22:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11845 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11838 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21382; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:22:36 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:22:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704181522.JAA21382@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: dennis Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418102217.00b5c400@etinc.com> References: <3.0.32.19970418102217.00b5c400@etinc.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Why is this "annoucement" such a big secret? Are you just not sure > yet? You complain about no commercial vendors not being interested in > FreeBSD, and then you give us this horsecrap about "wait 90 days for > the big unveiling..." You've obviously never dealt with other commercial vendors before. Right now as we speak my company is waiting with baited breath for two companies (Symantec and IONA) to release their next products, which are *critical* to our future success, since the # of bugs and missing features in the current crop make it useless for long-term success. All attempts to let us know *IF* our bugs are fixed, whether or not new features that exist in other vendors products, and anything that will help us to make decisions are not told. This is *common* with all organizations, at least with FreeBSD you get *hints* as to what's coming down the pike by looking at commit messages, with commercial companies you cross your fingers and hope for the best. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 08:24:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA11970 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA11962 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id IAA09603 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from archive.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa25647; 18 Apr 97 11:24 EDT Received: from stretch.cs.Virginia.edu (atf3r@stretch-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.14]) by archive.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA20378 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:24:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by stretch.cs.Virginia.edu (4.1/SMI-2.0) id AA17265; Fri, 18 Apr 97 11:23:59 EDT Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:23:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: adrian@virginia.edu To: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: DEC 21140-Ax problems resolved? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ N.B. This ia an augmneted repost that drew ] [ little response from freebsd-questions. ] Hi folks, I searched the mail archives and find no mention of the problem with this chipset after mid-March. Has the problem with the de0 driver been resolved? I get the same problems I found in many of the posts. The link light is on for out 10Base-T hub, then it goes off after the kernel probes and switches the device into 100Base-T mode. I have tried using the NetBSD driver as well as the -currrent one. In both cases the kernel won't compile. In the -current case, I think I may have missed a crucial file. The NetBSD may just be to far out of synch. FYI, I have an SMC 9332B. I am running 2.2.1-RELEASE. thanks, Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| Support your local programmer, System Administrator --->>>| STOP Software Patent Abuses NOW! NVL, NIIMS and Telemedicine Labs -->>| For an application and information Member: League for Programming Freedom ->| see: http://www.lpf.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 08:46:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12977 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coven.queeg.com (queeg.com [204.95.70.218]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12957; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brion@localhost) by coven.queeg.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id IAA25067; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704181544.IAA25067@coven.queeg.com> From: Brion Moss To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: "Serge A. Babkin" , khetan@iafrica.com, security@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SATAN under FreeBSD In-Reply-To: References: <199704111311.TAA06060@hq.icb.chel.su> Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Check out "The Admin Guide to Cracking, by the people who brought you Satan. It's at ftp://ftp.win.tue.nl/pub/security/index.html, along with a lot of other good stuff. AUSCERT has a security checklist that you can go through. There's a better checklist in _Practical_UNIX_And_Internet_Security_, from O'Reilly. -Brion The Hermit Hacker writes: > On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Serge A. Babkin wrote: > > > > > Or just set in the options that the .pl suffix means a HTML file. > > > > It worked great for me. The only problem is that I found > > > > absolutely no usefulness in SATAN. The "holes" it reported > > > > about were so idiotic. > > > > > > > Any useful resources that I can look through on how to debug > > > things? For instance, one of the machines at the office is an old > > > Altos machine running 'Sendmail 5.59/Altos-2.0 ready'...I'd like to be > > > able to test that one for any holes. > > > > I awaited a like thing from SATAN too. But almost all it did was analysing > > the NFS exports :-( > > Looking at the work on SATAN, and what it was trying to address, > why isn't there a list compiled of 'how to break into an insecure system'? > Something that a system adminstrator could sit down and go through, one by > one, to test their systems? > > One of the 'papers' that I've come across through Yahoo is found > at: > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/6866/admin.html > > which details several different methods of cracking into a system, > but its by no means complete, and all of them fail even on that old Altos > machine, so, like SATAN, is practically useless. > > Does anyone else know of something similar? Maybe start up a > 'Improving Security' section off of the FreeBSD web pages with links to > *good* papers like the above? > > > Marc G. Fournier > Systems Administrator @ hub.org > primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 08:56:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA13326 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA13300 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem14.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.44]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA16428; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:57:41 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3357B4C4.5E06@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:52:04 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kevin P. Neal" CC: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) References: <1.5.4.32.19970417061845.007251b0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kevin P. Neal wrote: > > At 03:45 PM 4/16/97 -0700, Pedro Giffuni wrote: > >Kevin P. Neal wrote: > >> Now if I could just get them to accept FreeBSD... > >> > >I don't understand your problem: Apache is part of the ports collection > >and the package runs "plug'n play" ! > > The problem is that my manager thinks that PCs are for NT and workstations > are for Unix. The two shall never meet. > Ohh..I also had the same problem, Kevin. The explanation I have for having FreeBSD around is that of a "backup server". Sometimes The AIX box failed or some "low level" maintainance had to be made, so I have my FreeBSD BOX to replace the server when it's needed, and I also use it to test the software I will install on the bigger box. After sometime I pointed out that I was using the most expensive box for simple purposes (web), while we were not using the real developing tools (Oracle) we have on the expensive box, and the doubt was left in the air. Lately Microsoft found out we were using OS/2 and gave us a 80% discount on their products, which has been devastating for my UNIX intentions, but on the short run they will figure out NT is unsuitable for some things and they will beg for FreeBSD again :-). Pedro. > -- > XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci. - House of Retrocomputing > XCOMM mailto:kpneal@pobox.com - http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ > XCOMM kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates: > XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!" (I cc'd this again to the list, cause someone may find my strategy useful) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:04:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA13675 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13669 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA12412; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:11:30 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:11:30 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: Charles Owens cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, Chris Coleman Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > > > The list price is $200. I was utterly amazed at how fast it blew through > scanning 700 megs of PC files. > > anyhow... We run 15 Windows 95 machines off a Samba fileserver here which is a P5-133, with FreeBSD 2.1.5 (soon to be upgraded!). I put the Antivirus demo on it and had similar results, it was (obviously?) faster than windows at checking files and it's damn sight cheaper, as I'm sure it's possible to check remote hard drives with one copy of the server software through smbclient. I don't know if McAfee ought to find out that you can check hundreds of PC's in this way for the price of 2 copies of the PC software, but I thought some of you out there who might not have done this yet, ought to try it out. (For more than 10PC's to check it's cheaper to buy a 486 with samba to just remotely check them once a day). It's not as secure, but it'll save your business money. -- Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:13:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14015 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14000 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem03.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.33]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA16448; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:14:03 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <3357B89A.2911@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:08:26 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dennis CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <3.0.32.19970418102217.00b5c400@etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dennis: You're starting to piss me off, at that USUALLY is very difficult... * What makes you so proud of your previous discussion, name one positive thing that came out of it. * Did you learn ANYTHING from your previous discussion? * One of my teachers said it is better that people think you are stupid that to prove it to them. Get this well, I'm not saying you are stupid, I'm saying you should think better before you write. You don't seem to understand ANYTHING about FreeBSD, at least not about ports, or about the RELEASE-CURRENT strategy and team effort. I'm being harsh on you, but if you don't understand this things you will have problems all your life. Knowing about FreeBSD is much more than just having it installed. Pedro. Note I also reduced the CC list, this thread has little sense on -hackers, and the title doesn't suit it well either. dennis wrote: > > At 04:33 PM 4/17/97 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Great. So the most powerful boxes can only be used by hackers and > >> not for any serious commercial purpose requiring stablilty.......didnt > >> we just have a (rather heated) discussion about this? > > > >You're overly impatient. Wait (no more than) 90 days and watch for > >announcements. > > > > Why is this "annoucement" such a big secret? Are you just not sure yet? You > complain about no commercial vendors not being interested in FreeBSD, and > then you give us this horsecrap about "wait 90 days for the big unveiling..." > > Are you announcing 3.0R availability, in which case we're wasting our time > integrating the current release? or will it be integrated in 2.2x? Or will > there be > a multiple release nightmare? Why dont you tell us so we can plan....you cant > market a product using freebsd is you dont know what the damn plan is. Setting > up basic marketing takes more than 90 days... > > Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:15:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14148 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14141 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA12462; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:15:47 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:15:47 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: Adrian Chadd cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Darren Reed , "David S. Miller" , fullermd@narcissus.ml.org, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Another Linux Religious war (was Re: Commercial vendors registry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Adrian Chadd wrote: > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > I can't see any upper management person ever taking a liking to anything > > > that is available "freely" on the 'net for mission critical stuff. And > > > I don't mean your < 100 people small companies, but big organisations > > > with real budgets. > > > > You may be surprised. > > > > A company that handles networking all the car dealers around Australia > approached us for internet connectivity (weirdly enough, they are upstairs > from us :). They run digital equipment and VMS exclusively on ALL their > machines. That's just weird, "exactly" the same is happening to us in England! More for FreeBSD. -- Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:17:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14388 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14378 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA03656; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418121536.00b52b60@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:15:38 -0400 To: Nate Williams From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:22 AM 4/18/97 -0600, Nate Williams wrote: >> Why is this "annoucement" such a big secret? Are you just not sure >> yet? You complain about no commercial vendors not being interested in >> FreeBSD, and then you give us this horsecrap about "wait 90 days for >> the big unveiling..." > >You've obviously never dealt with other commercial vendors before. >Right now as we speak my company is waiting with baited breath for two >companies (Symantec and IONA) to release their next products, which are >*critical* to our future success, since the # of bugs and missing >features in the current crop make it useless for long-term success. All >attempts to let us know *IF* our bugs are fixed, whether or not new >features that exist in other vendors products, and anything that will >help us to make decisions are not told. > >This is *common* with all organizations, at least with FreeBSD you get >*hints* as to what's coming down the pike by looking at commit messages, >with commercial companies you cross your fingers and hope for the best. Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. Why does a "free" OS have secrets? And this is not about fixing bugs, believe me I understand about bugs, its about having to reengineer freebsd based systems every couple of months..... I'm just getting tired of getting hit in the nuts for not supporting -current....the fact that the release is out of date a week after its out is a very bad thing and really needs to change... Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:22:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14688 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14679 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21978; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704181622.KAA21978@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: dennis Cc: Nate Williams , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418121536.00b52b60@etinc.com> References: <3.0.32.19970418121536.00b52b60@etinc.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. > Why does a "free" OS have secrets? Because FreeBSD is not 'just' given away, and may be used in commercial companies (such as mine), and we don't want *you* to know what we are doing, but we want the FreeBSD core team to know what's what since it's in our best interest to keep them informed of what's going on. I'm not a core member, and what SRI is/was doing with FreeBSD is a platform for running ibcs2 applications, which we decided to scrap late last year and re-write, but the validity of it is still the same. > I'm just getting tired of getting hit in the nuts for not supporting > -current....the fact that the release is out of date a week after its > out is a very bad thing and really needs to change... That's complete and utter BS. 2.2 had a 8 week release cycle, so you had two months from the time the start of BETA testing was announced until the time it was released to get your product up-to-snuff. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:27:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15003 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from metronet.com (pgilley@fohnix.metronet.com [192.245.137.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA14978 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by metronet.com with SMTP id AA27638 (5.67a/IDA1.5hp for ); Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:27:52 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:27:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Phil Gilley To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Card Q Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith wrote: > > Brian N. Handy stands accused of saying: > > > > I'm trying to put together a new zoomy P6-based system, and I want a good > > video card...and I'm at a loss for what's better than what. Since I want > > 24-bit color I'll probably be running the XiG server, so absolute solid > > XFree86 drivers aren't necessarily of great importance... > > > > Any advice on what a good card would be? Right now I'm trying to decide > > between the #9FX 772 and the #9FX 771 cards. The obvious difference seems > > to be one supports "interlaced" and the other supports "sync on green". > > One uses the S3 Virge/VX chip and the other...S3 Vision968. > > I haven't actually used the 772, but the 771 is our favoured high-end > card; we have successfully sold several systems to customers that were > looking at SGI's based on these cards' performance at 24bpp. (Price was > also a contributing factor, I must say 8) > > If you do buy one, make sure you get one with 4M, as the cards are not > upgradeable. > > > Any good advice out there? > > Hmm, the Virge is a newer part, so it may well be faster. Can you perhaps > talk your dealer into one of each for a comparison test? I have several dozen 771 cards running on FreeBSD PCs. I wasn't too happy when my dealer told me they had been discontinued and replaced by the 772. I tried a 772 but couldn't get it to work consistently with the S3V server. It would lock up the machine about 1 out of every 3 times you started X. I didn't mess around with it much after I noticed the comment that the S3V server was "pretty new, and not everything might work like you expect it to." I just swapped cards with a Windows95 box that had a 771. Hopefully someone will tell me I'm wrong and it does work. On the bright side, since the 771 has been discontinued I've been able to pick a few up at Best Buy for $169. Phil Gilley pgilley@metronet.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:27:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15079 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15063 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA03725; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418122555.00b4b100@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:25:57 -0400 To: Pedro Giffuni From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:08 AM 4/18/97 -0700, Pedro Giffuni wrote: >Dennis: >You're starting to piss me off, at that USUALLY is very difficult... > * What makes you so proud of your previous discussion, name one >positive thing that came out of it. > * Did you learn ANYTHING from your previous discussion? You're right Pedro, nothing came out of the last discussion. FreeBSD is still a cult OS near the bottom of the heap in user base....I'd be damned proud if I were you. > * One of my teachers said it is better that people think you are stupid >that to prove it to them. Get this well, I'm not saying you are stupid, >I'm saying you should think better before you write. You don't seem to >understand ANYTHING about FreeBSD, at least not about ports, or about >the RELEASE-CURRENT strategy and team effort. I UNDERSTAND the strategy..what Im saying is that is a loser in the commercial world. if you are happy with that...fine. > >I'm being harsh on you, but if you don't understand this things you will >have problems all your life. Knowing about FreeBSD is much more than >just having it installed. I know thats it a good OS that noone uses.... I just got of the phone with a guy whose choices are Linux or Cisco. I couldn't even give him a freebsd system...'cause he had no idea what it is. You have no idea how frustrating that is. db From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:31:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15384 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from akane.db-net.com (akane.db-net.com [206.103.247.225]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15379 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from catty (catty [206.103.247.226]) by akane.db-net.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA05205 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:43:21 -0400 Message-ID: <3357A219.6E402A20@db-net.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:32:25 -0400 From: Wilson MacGyver Organization: DB-Net Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Card Q X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I too highly recommand the Matrox Millenium. I've seen the 4MB version for $250. It's upgradable to 8MB. Blazing fast... Xfree86 has driver for it as of 3.1.2, but Xi's driver for it is great! -- Wilson MacGyver macgyver@db-net.com -------------------------------------- Veni, Vidi, Concidi. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:33:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15562 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15554 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA09694 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA02075; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:28:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704181628.JAA02075@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Feasibility of porting Linux filesystem code? To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:28:53 -0700 (MST) Cc: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, aaron@veritas.com, terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Apr 18, 97 10:23:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In kernel code it's natural to have OS specific API's. To do an > out-of-kernel fs layer for FreeBSD I will have to identify all the FreeBSD > API calls that are required in fs code and see if we can emulate them. It > might be difficult to emulate some of the semantics. We did it under Windows95 for a commercial product. It's not that hard. I would like to see the dependency set get a lot smaller and the bottom end interface get a lot cleaner, though. Too bad no one else is interested in making FS code easy to write... too much danger that people will actually start coding there, I guess. > The vnode interface in FreeBSD is designed to be extensible, it is > different from the SYSV vnode interface derived from the SunOS > implementation which is fixed. The SVR4 vnode interfaces is modelled after the SunOS 4.x interface; I think the Solaris interface was actually modelled after the SVR4 interface as part of the trade where SVR4 got Sun's VM code (don't quote me on that, though). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:40:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16211 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA16189 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA02106; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:38:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704181638.JAA02106@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:38:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704180304.UAA01268@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Apr 17, 97 08:04:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Not interested in using write nor any user level api. > > the video capture driver can place a digital image any where in memory or > on video cards (PCI to PCI transfer). > > For the purpose of this discussion, what I want to do is when I get a frame > in a buffer to pass a token to a file system routine to write the buffer > to disk. The object is to avoid unnecessarily copying the buffer. What about staging the buffer? Something like: 1) Map an aperture for the card 2) Capture into memory in a sub region of the aperture 3) Associate the memory as dirty buffers for a region of the file you want to write (set them up as if they are prefilled block buffers which have been written). 4) Initiate the dirty page flush (write to disk) 5) While waiting for completion, mark the region of the aperture busy, and capture into a different region to interleave the I/O 6) When the page flush completes, unmark the region so it can be reused This should make the save go as fast as the vnode_pager can write, and save an additional copy that would otherwise have to happen. I might be able to cobble this together, but you'd be much, much more assured that it would work if you could trap John Dyson into splitting the buffer/vnode association interface so you can get at it directly; my forrays into the VM code have been largely successful, but my failures are generally catastrophic when they occur (whole disk wiped, etc.). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:44:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16565 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.212.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA16554 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (annexr3-2.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE) by Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE with SMTP id AA28621 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:44:22 +0200 Received: (from se@localhost) by x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id SAA08956; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:43:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <19970418184337.39801@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:43:37 +0200 From: Stefan Esser To: dennis Cc: "Daniel O'Callaghan" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty References: <3.0.32.19970417185458.00b2d590@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417185458.00b2d590@etinc.com>; from dennis on Thu, Apr 17, 1997 at 06:55:00PM -0400 X-Mime-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by x14.mi.uni-koeln.de id SAA08956 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id JAA16557 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 17, dennis wrote: > >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >> With the following configuration: > >> > >> device dev0 > >> device dev0 at isa? port 0x300 > >> > >> If a PCI device is found, the ISA dev0 really shouldn't be probed, but > >> it is. > My point here was that if ed0 is already attached that additional ed0 > probes should not be done.... Sorry, but I still don't understand what you actually dislike about the current situation ... Is it: 1) Only ed0 is specified in the kernel config file, and you do not want an additional PCI card to be attched as ed1 ? 2) You have a PCI card at some address assigned by the PCI BIOS, and have also specified the attach address in the kernel config file (or in userconfig), and now both the PCI and the ISA attach code find the card and try to attach it ? The first one is a feature, actually :) You need only have some driver included in the kernel (or loaded as an LKM), and it will attach all cards that it knows about. The second one is the result of the PCI code and the ISA code not having a common ressource list. There is no way to detect the conflict, in that case. (The current ressource registration code is ISA specific, and will have to be generalized to support multiple port and memory ranges, for example.) I plan to fix both these points in the PCI code. Some recent discussion with Jörg Wunsch made me rethink the PCI attach procedure, and I want to implement changes, that allow you to: 1) wire driver names to cards in specified PCI slots 2) allow "userconfig" to attach a unit number to a PCI device 3) allow "userconfig" to disable a PCI device 4) check for ressource conflicts with cards on other bus types (and protect against an ISA driver trying to attach a PCI card, that has already been found by its PCI driver ...) The config file format would be: # PCI bus tree controller pci0 controller pci1 at pci0 slot 5 controller pci2 at pci0 slot 6 # Adaptec 3940 in slot 5 device ahc0 at pci1 slot 0 device ahc1 at pci1 slot 1 # AMD Combo chip on motherboard device lnc0 at pci0 slot 7 func 0 device amd0 at pci0 slot 7 func 0 This does of course require changes to "config", but they are not hard to implement. The semantics of the above definitions would be, that an Adaptec 3940 in slot 5 would actually get the ahc0 and ahc1 driver instances assigned. If there was no such card, but an 2940 in slot 5, then that would come out as ahc2, since ahc0 and ahc1 are reserved for the 3940 and will only be used for such a card in slot 5. There is one problem left, but I'm going to ignore that: The PCI bus numbers used in the config file are only used as labels, they don't have to match what the PCI BIOS assigns. It is well possible, that the PCI BIOS chooses to assign PCI bus 2 to the secondary side of the PCI bridge in slot 5, and thus "pci1" in the config file is just a label for the "at pci1" clause ... (In other words: pci99 substituted for all occurances of pci1 in the config file would give indistinguishable behaviour, and would not imply, that the card will really be found on a PCI bus with a bus number of 99.) I'll implement this as time permits, together with other necessary PCI bus driver changes. Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:46:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16726 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pahtoh.cwu.edu (root@pahtoh.cwu.edu [198.104.65.27]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16715 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opus.cts.cwu.edu (skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu [198.104.92.71]) by pahtoh.cwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28744; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (skynyrd@localhost) by opus.cts.cwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00817; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:46:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Timmons To: dennis cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418102217.00b5c400@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are you trying to win the "Works with eDns!" stamp of approval for rhetorical acrimony? You've seen how FreeBSD releases are constructed by breaking off branches from -current and stabilizing them over a period of time. Feature sets appear in -current well before ever making it into a release, so there is planning time. As for FreeBSD-SMP, it is no secret that it exists and has been loosely targeted for 3.0, what more do you want? I've been tracking FreeBSD development since pre-2.0 and personally feel that you're being unfairly critical. IMHO. -Chris On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > Why is this "annoucement" such a big secret? Are you just not sure yet? You > complain about no commercial vendors not being interested in FreeBSD, and > then you give us this horsecrap about "wait 90 days for the big unveiling..." > > Are you announcing 3.0R availability, in which case we're wasting our time > integrating the current release? or will it be integrated in 2.2x? Or will > there be > a multiple release nightmare? Why dont you tell us so we can plan....you cant > market a product using freebsd is you dont know what the damn plan is. Setting > up basic marketing takes more than 90 days... > > > Dennis > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:50:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA17064 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.212.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17045 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (annexr3-2.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE) by Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE with SMTP id AA09523 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:50:29 +0200 Received: (from se@localhost) by x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id SAA08985; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:50:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <19970418185027.62509@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:50:27 +0200 From: Stefan Esser To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" Cc: dennis , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty References: <3.0.32.19970417185259.00b2cdf0@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel O'Callaghan on Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 09:00:53AM +1000 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 18, Daniel O'Callaghan wrote: > Like I said, numbering starts *after* the ISA numbers. I tried a kernel > config with > > ed0 > ed1 > ed2 at isa .... > > What happened was the PCI cards started at ed3 and ed4. So just added > > ed0 at isa > ed1 at isa > ed2 at isa > ed3 > > and now I have the flexibility of putting in more ISA cards if necessary, > and the PCI cards start at 3. ISA cards won't automatically number > themselves, so it makes sense to start the number for PCI *after* all of > the defined ISA devices. I have not looked at the code, but I assume > that the PCI attach code finds the end of the ISA devices somehow. Yes, it does. The unit number in the PCI attach code is initialized to "NED +1" ... I had considered several possibilities when I wrote the ED and LNC PCI attach wrappers, and found this to be the cleanest solution. If I get around to make "config" more PCI-aware, I intend to make device ed0 at pci? not reserve unit 0 for use by ISA ... Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:53:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA17328 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17314 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA02155; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:50:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704181650.JAA02155@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:50:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: scrappy@hub.org, perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu, james@wgold.demon.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417182959.00b2e9c0@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 17, 97 06:30:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > nope, SMP support is alive and well in 3.0+. I believe its > >integrated as part of 3.0+...isn't it? But we've had SMP capabilities > >through patches since at least 2.2 > > Great. So the most powerful boxes can only be used by hackers and > not for any serious commercial purpose requiring stablilty.......didnt > we just have a (rather heated) discussion about this? Yes; as I recall, you were on the side that wanted to maintain stability through evolutionary developement of -RELEASE code, and the SMP people were all on the side which wanted to progress through revolution, not evolution. 8-p. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 09:55:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA17505 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17498 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA02174; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:53:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704181653.JAA02174@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:53:26 -0700 (MST) Cc: danny@panda.hilink.com.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970417185259.00b2cdf0@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 17, 97 06:53:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Putting the 'device dev0' in makes sure the code is included, but > >numbering starts after the ISA numbers. > > Uh....PCIs are probed first, so how would the above work...it makes > much more sense for the PCI boards to be first (ie ed0, ed1) and > the isa cards last, since you can specify the isa cards device name, > but the PCI device name is dependent on whats in the system. You attach what you can't move, then what is hard to move, then what can be moved automagically, then what can be moved, but doesn't have to be, because it's capable of sharing resource. The issue is not probe order, it's attach order. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:02:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18037 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18028 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA02193; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:57:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704181657.JAA02193@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:57:06 -0700 (MST) Cc: dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704172357.RAA17382@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 17, 97 05:57:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Uhh, yeah. You want stability, then you can't have 'brand-new' > features. You can't have it both ways. > > To put it into a scenario you might understand. > > : I want to beta-test your newest product before it's released > : publically, but it better be *rock* solid since I need your latest > : driver to handle the huge network loads I'm using. And, I'll complain > : if it makes my machine unstable. That looks like what he actually wants, as opposed to what he says he thinks he wants. Why can't the latest driver work in a rock solid system, or why can't a rock solid driver work in the latest system? A beta user accepts some risk, but they shouldn't have to risk everything. Rgards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:02:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18118 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18110 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA02254; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:01:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704181701.KAA02254@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Problems with afterstep and swap To: andrew@why.whine.com (Andrew Herdman) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:01:21 -0700 (MST) Cc: mark@quickweb.com, mestery@cobber.cord.edu, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Herdman" at Apr 17, 97 08:06:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > How do you turn off backing store on the XFree86 Servers? > > Andrew -bs ("man Xserver") Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:04:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18283 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18271; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA03980; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418130338.00b573f0@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:03:40 -0400 To: Stefan Esser From: dennis Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty Cc: "Daniel O'Callaghan" , hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by freefall.freebsd.org id KAA18273 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 06:43 PM 4/18/97 +0200, Stefan Esser wrote: >On Apr 17, dennis wrote: >> >On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >> >> With the following configuration: >> >> >> >> device dev0 >> >> device dev0 at isa? port 0x300 >> >> >> >> If a PCI device is found, the ISA dev0 really shouldn't be probed, but >> >> it is. > >> My point here was that if ed0 is already attached that additional ed0 >> probes should not be done.... > >Sorry, but I still don't understand what you actually >dislike about the current situation ... > >Is it: > >1) Only ed0 is specified in the kernel config file, and > you do not want an additional PCI card to be attched > as ed1 ? > >2) You have a PCI card at some address assigned by the > PCI BIOS, and have also specified the attach address > in the kernel config file (or in userconfig), and now > both the PCI and the ISA attach code find the card > and try to attach it ? > >The first one is a feature, actually :) >You need only have some driver included in the kernel >(or loaded as an LKM), and it will attach all cards that >it knows about. > >The second one is the result of the PCI code and the ISA >code not having a common ressource list. There is no way >to detect the conflict, in that case. (The current ressource >registration code is ISA specific, and will have to be >generalized to support multiple port and memory ranges, >for example.) The problem is that if a xyz0 PCI card is found and attached at xyz0, then the isa code should not probe xyz0...the isa probe will not find the PCI card because the probe code is different..... If there is an isa card at the xyz probe address, it will try to attach is again at xyz0...and you cant have 2 devices using the same interface.... You are telling me that you can't tell that device xyz0 already exists before you probe? C'mon now! What about ifunit()? > >I plan to fix both these points in the PCI code. Some >recent discussion with Jörg Wunsch made me rethink the >PCI attach procedure, and I want to implement changes, >that allow you to: > >1) wire driver names to cards in specified PCI slots this is a good thing... > >2) allow "userconfig" to attach a unit number to a > PCI device good... > >3) allow "userconfig" to disable a PCI device > >4) check for ressource conflicts with cards on other > bus types (and protect against an ISA driver trying > to attach a PCI card, that has already been found > by its PCI driver ...) It would be pretty hard for this to happen, given that PCI io addresses are out of ISA range. Memory is an issue though, if the PCI card memory is in the ISA hole..... > >The config file format would be: > ># PCI bus tree >controller pci0 >controller pci1 at pci0 slot 5 >controller pci2 at pci0 slot 6 > ># Adaptec 3940 in slot 5 >device ahc0 at pci1 slot 0 >device ahc1 at pci1 slot 1 > ># AMD Combo chip on motherboard >device lnc0 at pci0 slot 7 func 0 >device amd0 at pci0 slot 7 func 0 > >This does of course require changes to "config", but >they are not hard to implement. > >The semantics of the above definitions would be, that >an Adaptec 3940 in slot 5 would actually get the ahc0 >and ahc1 driver instances assigned. If there was no >such card, but an 2940 in slot 5, then that would come >out as ahc2, since ahc0 and ahc1 are reserved for the >3940 and will only be used for such a card in slot 5. > >There is one problem left, but I'm going to ignore that: >The PCI bus numbers used in the config file are only >used as labels, they don't have to match what the PCI >BIOS assigns. It is well possible, that the PCI BIOS >chooses to assign PCI bus 2 to the secondary side of >the PCI bridge in slot 5, and thus "pci1" in the config >file is just a label for the "at pci1" clause ... >(In other words: pci99 substituted for all occurances >of pci1 in the config file would give indistinguishable >behaviour, and would not imply, that the card will really >be found on a PCI bus with a bus number of 99.) > >I'll implement this as time permits, together with other >necessary PCI bus driver changes. Nice work. Its fairly clean now...and you seem to be focused on the right issues... Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:07:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18626 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18619 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA02274; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:05:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704181705.KAA02274@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: jbryant@tfs.net Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:05:36 -0700 (MST) Cc: durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704180113.UAA16930@argus> from "Jim Bryant" at Apr 17, 97 08:13:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Same goes for Kansas and Missouri, as well as UT [Arlington, and > Dallas]... UT as in Utah? The Hastings bookstores in Utah carry the FreeBSD CDROM's. Not as many as Linux, but then there aren't as many FreeBSD's. I have yet to see FreeBSD in any store here in AZ. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:09:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18770 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18765 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA13282; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:45 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:45 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <4626.861257826@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > We sell to distributors and end-users both. What the distributors > > > do with the product afterwards is their call, not ours. > > > > what do they do with them? i have yet to see a store carrying > > FreeBSD... > > I don't know where you live, but they can be found at both Fry's and > "Weird Stuff" - two popular Bay Area computer outlets. Fry's, I was on Totenham court road in London (England) yesterday and saw some Walnut Creek CD rom's for sale, can't remember which ones, but they were WCreek. However I saw no FreeBSD cd's there... The Bay Area is only a very small part of the world. No matter how important. > > I've also seen copies at Cody's bookstore in Berkeley, a popular > hangout for CS types. More linux stuff, naturally, but they at least > had FreeBSD in the retail box in their OS section. I believe you can > also find them at Computer Literacy, though I haven't checked recently. More Linux in Berekely, isn't that scary ? > > This is not to say that there aren't stores we could still get into > that we're not, and I've often wondered what the penalties are for > reverse-shoplifting. I walk in with 10 of the latest FreeBSD CDs > (already price-stickered at the usual retail price of $24.95) and > surrepticiously stick them on the shelves. It's an option which has > crossed my mind more than once. :-) I'm sure if you offer to sell these to people, perhaps give 10 to a shop to price however they like (suggest say 50 ukpounds in the UK I don't know about $) and give them a number to ring to order more. They'd be happy to sell them for you, and say they all go in the first day, I'm sure they'll order more from you. > > > at least go back and read last night's list... and you must admit... > > i am right about the exposure/distribution factor, maybe walnut creek > > needs to get some distributors serious about getting the disks out on > > the shelves... > > They are serious and they are trying, but Rome wasn't built in a day > and they're still rebuilding their distributor sales force (they had > some personnel changes which left them understaffed, but they've been > hiring aggressively and now appear to have it back up to snuff, albeit > not quite so experienced as before [that just takes time]). Rome wasn't built in a day, but that was one localised area, you could send a bunch of CD's as suggested to halfway round the globe for the cost of a pressed CD and a stamp or two, maybe it'd be worth it ? There's a lot of empty markets out there, and I sure as hell know that Linux sells off the shelf all round UK. -- Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:20:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19455 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oak-1.pilot.net (mail-oak-1.pilot.net [198.232.147.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19450 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u2.pilot.net (unknown-17-117.pilot.net [204.48.17.117]) by mail-oak-1.pilot.net with ESMTP id KAA05927; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dc3.pilot.net (dc3.pilot.net [204.48.17.11]) by u2.pilot.net (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id KAA15273; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (wadlow@localhost) by dc3.pilot.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA00972; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:20:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dc3.pilot.net: wadlow owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:20:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Wadlow To: HOSOKAWA Tatsumi cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting problem In-Reply-To: <199704180449.NAA15795@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, HOSOKAWA Tatsumi wrote: > >> I supply "up" as an additional ifconfig argument in the network part. So > >> far so good. It begins the installation. Meanwhile, on my Sun, I've got > >> a "ping -s" going to the laptop. It is showing delay times of 250-1500 > >> milliseconds. My Sun and the laptop are on the same segment. A ping to > >> another machine on the same segment shows 0 msec delays. A ping to the > >> Linux running on the '30H, with the same Megahertz card and same Ethernet > >> cable shows 0 msec. But hell, it's working, so I proceed. > > Does your laptop have a sourdcard or something confilcts with the IRQ > you specified as the free IRQ pool for PC-cards? It does, but booting and disabling those devices produces no change in the behavior. It still pings with great delay, works for a minute or two and then stops. --Tom From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:23:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19597 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19592 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA19824; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Stephen Roome cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:45 BST." Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:23:43 -0700 Message-ID: <19805.861384223@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I was on Totenham court road in London (England) yesterday and saw some > Walnut Creek CD rom's for sale, can't remember which ones, but they were > WCreek. However I saw no FreeBSD cd's there... > > The Bay Area is only a very small part of the world. No matter how > important. I never meant to imply that we were the center of the universe, simply that I'd seen the product in stores here. I can't speak for other areas of the world simply because I don't live in those areas. QED. :-) I also talked with our sales manager yesterday about getting into more retail stores and her comment was that we were definitely _trying_ to do this on a more or less constant basis, but getting in bed with the Mafia for a portion of their lucrative drug-and-sex trade is actually *easier* than getting into some of these retail stores. They only buy from certain distributors and those same distributors require some pretty insane deals, including direct kick-backs and up-front subsidies ("You give us $50,000 up-front and we'll agree to stock your product"). We're not quite big enough to support that kind of graft. :( Anyone who'd like to become a regional distributor of Walnut Creek CDROM products is also welcome to send mail to sales@cdrom.com and ask for a price list. AFAIK, they're pretty good about giving new distributors highly competetive pricing in order to get them started. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:30:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA19986 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19966 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id KAA02867; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704181731.KAA02867@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dennis cc: Nate Williams , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:15:38 EDT." <3.0.32.19970418121536.00b52b60@etinc.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:31:42 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. >Why does a "free" OS have secrets? And this is not about fixing bugs, >believe me I understand about bugs, its about having to reengineer >freebsd based systems every couple of months..... > >I'm just getting tired of getting hit in the nuts for not supporting >-current....the fact that the release is out of date a week after its >out is a very bad thing and really needs to change... Dennis, the "secrecy" that Jordan eluded to concerns the "commercial interest" of other companies. For those of us that know what's going on in the bigger picture, we aren't at liberty to discuss what those companies are planning; you'll have to wait for their announcements. One or more of them might have a significant impact on the development of SMP for FreeBSD. You'll just have to wait. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:30:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20065 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-18.netcom.ca [207.181.94.146]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20056 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id OAA11730; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:29:49 -0300 (ADT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:29:49 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: dennis cc: Nate Williams , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418121536.00b52b60@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >This is *common* with all organizations, at least with FreeBSD you get > >*hints* as to what's coming down the pike by looking at commit messages, > >with commercial companies you cross your fingers and hope for the best. > > Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. > Why does a "free" OS have secrets? And this is not about fixing bugs, > believe me I understand about bugs, its about having to reengineer > freebsd based systems every couple of months..... If you actually read what you were responding to, you would have seen that Nate stated: "at least with FreeBSD you get *hints* as to what's coming down the pike by looking at commit messages" They are merely *hints* because 90 days down the road, it might be determined that what was being worked on is just not stable enough to put into a release...but at least you can watch the develoment process towards the integration of that "new thing" > I'm just getting tired of getting hit in the nuts for not supporting > -current....the fact that the release is out of date a week after its > out is a very bad thing and really needs to change... Wrong industry...my Pentium was out of date *before* I bought it, I just couldn't afford the newest and best *shrug* As for using -current, IMHO, in many ways it is more stable then the previous -release...but you tend to have to be careful to watch those commit messages that Nate mentioned above, as well as watch the -current mailing list, since most of the core developers actually give warnings about instabilities. I used to run -current on my production machine in Toronto, but due to a hardware problem (bad RAM), I haven't been able to upgrade it for several months...if you want the "newest and best", take a risk, grab a "spare" machine at the office (*all* offices have at least one machine you can take a chance on, even if its not as powerful as you'd like) and install -current and test it for yourself. Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:39:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20641 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.212.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20630 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (annexr3-9.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE) by Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE with SMTP id AA04493 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:38:13 +0200 Received: (from se@localhost) by x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id TAA09187; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:34:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <19970418193432.02048@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:34:32 +0200 From: Stefan Esser To: dennis Cc: "Daniel O'Callaghan" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Probing deflugalty References: <3.0.32.19970418130338.00b573f0@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418130338.00b573f0@etinc.com>; from dennis on Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 01:03:40PM -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 18, dennis wrote: > The problem is that if a xyz0 PCI card is found and attached at > xyz0, then the isa code should not probe xyz0...the isa probe > will not find the PCI card because the probe code is different..... > If there is an isa card at the xyz probe address, it will try to attach > is again at xyz0...and you cant have 2 devices using the same interface.... If your kernel is configured to support an ISA card under the name of "xyz0", then that name should never be assigned to a (possibly driver compatible) PCI card, whether that ISA card is plugged into the system or not. The only exception is that you wire the unit number of some PCI card to "0", but then the ISA probe code should not even probe the card it might have a "device cyz0" config line for ... > You are telling me that you can't tell that device xyz0 already > exists before you probe? C'mon now! What about ifunit()? Yes, this could be implemented as an additional conflicts check, but it must be put in all existing ISA drivers (or at least in those that are shared between PCI and ISA). > >4) check for ressource conflicts with cards on other > > bus types (and protect against an ISA driver trying > > to attach a PCI card, that has already been found > > by its PCI driver ...) > > It would be pretty hard for this to happen, given that PCI > io addresses are out of ISA range. Memory is an issue though, > if the PCI card memory is in the ISA hole..... No, you can have both, an ISA card below 1MB (remember, there is even a map type defined for that purpose !) as well as a PCI card supported by an ISA driver, but with an attach address far outside the ISA hole ... (The latter method is used to support the "lnc" and "ed" drivers under 2.1.x, where some kernel interface was not well suited to allow backporting the 2.2.x PCI support code for those drivers ... If you move a 2.1.x kernel config file over to 2.2.x and have a line reading device lnc0 at isa? port 0x7000 in it (since you found that to be the address assigned to your PCI Lance card by the PCI BIOS), then both the PCI and ISA code would try to attach that card, currently! The code was written under the assumption you state above, but that assumption did not hold in reality :) Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:39:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA20720 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from archimedes.inoc.sj.nec.com (archimedes.inoc.sj.nec.com [131.241.31.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA20711 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by inoc.sj.nec.com (8.7.3/YDL1.7-930126.17) id KAA02082(archimedes.inoc.sj.nec.com); Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sj.nec.com (8.7.6+2.6Wbeta7/YDL1.7-940623.1) id KAA00382(netkeeper.sj.nec.com); Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smtp@localhost) by firenode3.ibu.sj.nec.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA03282 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vegas.ibu.sj.nec.com (vegas.ibu.sj.nec.com [131.241.70.2]) by firenode3.ibu.sj.nec.com id rfKAA03273 for <>; Fri Apr 18 10:34:00 1997 Received: by vegas.ibu.sj.nec.com (8.6.9/YDL1.9-9507101400) id KAA18571(vegas.ibu.sj.nec.com); Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:32:33 -0700 From: eric@ibu.sj.nec.com (Eric Lunow) Message-Id: <199704181732.KAA18571@vegas.ibu.sj.nec.com> Subject: Booting from IDE CD-ROM... To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:32:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does FreeBSD support booting from an IDE CD-ROM ? Any insight on this is helpful. Thanks. Eric Lunow eric@ibu.sj.nec.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:46:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA21335 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itsdsv1.enc.edu (itsdsv1.enc.edu [207.95.42.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21321 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dingo.its.enc.edu (dingo.its.enc.edu [207.95.222.250]) by itsdsv1.enc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10735; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:52:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Owens X-Sender: owensc@dingo.its.enc.edu To: Stephen Roome cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, Chris Coleman Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Stephen Roome wrote: > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > > > > > > The list price is $200. I was utterly amazed at how fast it blew through > > scanning 700 megs of PC files. > > > > anyhow... > > We run 15 Windows 95 machines off a Samba fileserver here which is a > P5-133, with FreeBSD 2.1.5 (soon to be upgraded!). > > I put the Antivirus demo on it and had similar results, it was > (obviously?) faster than windows at checking files and it's damn sight > cheaper, as I'm sure it's possible to check remote hard drives with one > copy of the server software through smbclient. Hmmm... I thought smbclient was only good for interactive, command-line-ftp-like operations. How would you get uvscan to work over the smbclient connection, such as it is? > I don't know if McAfee ought to find out that you can check hundreds of > PC's in this way for the price of 2 copies of the PC software, but I > thought some of you out there who might not have done this yet, ought to > try it out. (For more than 10PC's to check it's cheaper to buy a 486 with > samba to just remotely check them once a day). > > It's not as secure, but it'll save your business money. The potential is certainly there. For no-cost PC virus scanning I use the shareware version of F-Prot (free for non-profits, $1 per computer for commecial users). It's not as pretty as the full-blown F-Prot, but it has the same very highly rated virus scanning engine. --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles N. Owens Email: owensc@enc.edu http://www.enc.edu/~owensc Network & Systems Administrator Information Technology Services "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's Eastern Nazarene College best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:46:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA21410 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21396 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA02605; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:46:36 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:46:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian N. Handy" To: Nate Williams Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704181622.KAA21978@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Nate Williams wrote: >> I'm just getting tired of getting hit in the nuts for not supporting >> -current....the fact that the release is out of date a week after its >> out is a very bad thing and really needs to change... > >That's complete and utter BS. 2.2 had a 8 week release cycle, so you >had two months from the time the start of BETA testing was announced >until the time it was released to get your product up-to-snuff. We just had a vote on the FreeBSD-vs-Dennis list. (A closed list, btw, sorry. ) Once again there was a unanimous vote NOT to teach Dennis the secret handshake. Brian From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 10:47:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA21509 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uno.sat.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp (uno.sat.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp [133.11.70.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA21490 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uno.sat.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA09011; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:47:23 +0900 (JST) To: Jaye Mathisen Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mildly interesting NFS numbers. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:05:42 -0800 (PST)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.69 on Emacs 19.28.1 / Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:47:23 +0900 Message-ID: <9009.861385643@sat.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> From: Hidetoshi Shimokawa Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Jaye Mathisen Subject: Mildly interesting NFS numbers. Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 22:05:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: mrcpu> mrcpu> Client is a Digital Prioris HX6000, P6-200/512cache, 32MB RAM, SMC mrcpu> 100Mbit ethernet. mrcpu> mrcpu> Server is a Network Appliance F540, 100GB disk, 8MB NVRAM, 128MB cache, mrcpu> 100MBit ethernet. mrcpu> mrcpu> I tried both TCP and UDP mounts, version 3 and version 2 NFS. The mrcpu> best performance was UDP version 3, for what that's worth. mrcpu> mrcpu> # iozone 500 mrcpu> Writing the 500 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...86.304688 seconds mrcpu> Reading the file...90.789062 seconds mrcpu> mrcpu> IOZONE performance measurements: mrcpu> 6074849 bytes/second for writing the file mrcpu> 5774792 bytes/second for reading the file mrcpu> mrcpu> using 64k block sizes resulted in about a 4% perf increase, however, it mrcpu> dropped CPU utilization on the Netapp from 100% to about 65%. Great. Netapp seems very good server, but it's too expensive :-( BTW, how many nfsiods did you run? If you ran only 4 nfsiod, I guess you could get better number with running 8 or more iods. /\ Hidetoshi Shimokawa \/ simokawa@sat.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp PGP public key: finger -l simokawa@sat.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 11:08:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22757 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.212.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA22752 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (annexr3-1.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE) by Sisyphos.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE with SMTP id AA04580 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:08:10 +0200 Received: (from se@localhost) by x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id UAA09379; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:08:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <19970418200807.65461@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:08:07 +0200 From: Stefan Esser To: Wilson MacGyver Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Card Q References: <3357A219.6E402A20@db-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.68 In-Reply-To: <3357A219.6E402A20@db-net.com>; from Wilson MacGyver on Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 12:32:25PM -0400 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Apr 18, Wilson MacGyver wrote: > I too highly recommand the Matrox Millenium. I've seen the 4MB > version for $250. It's upgradable to 8MB. Blazing fast... > Xfree86 has driver for it as of 3.1.2, but Xi's driver for it > is great! I know about Xi's drivers, but prefer to have the option of building drivers from source. (For example, because I use -current, and it is possible that interfaces change (e.g. the wtmp extension) which will be reflected in a commercial product only a lot later ... Is XFree really an option for the Millenium, or is a S3 or Mach64 based card a better choice for my new system ? Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 11:21:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA23419 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ttfn.com ([38.234.74.195]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA23412 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nomad.geoplex.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ttfn.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA15746; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:20:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Tom Wadlow Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: davet@geoplex.com Subject: Re: Interesting problem In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:04 PDT." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----- =_aaaaaaaaaa0" Content-ID: <15740.861387639.0@nomad.geoplex.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:20:39 -0700 Message-ID: <15743.861387639@nomad.geoplex.com> From: Dave Truesdell Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <15740.861387639.1@nomad.geoplex.com> Content-MD5: ksSNU6/3X1ZcqHGjsAKeAw== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had a similar problem with a 3com card in a 6030X until I changed = /etc/pccard.conf to use only irq 11. Here's the top of my conf file: # Generally available IO ports io 0x240-0x2e0 0x300-0x360 # Generally available IRQs irq 11 # Available memory slots memory 0xd4000 96k ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Received: from pooh.ttfn.com (ttfn.com [204.182.16.254]) by rgate.metricom.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA21173 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from davet@localhost) by pooh.ttfn.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id UAA02781 for davet@ricochet.net; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns3.harborcom.net (ns3.harborcom.net [206.158.4.7]) by pooh.ttfn.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02776 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by ns3.harborcom.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA06148; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 23:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA25004; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA24972 for hackers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oak-1.pilot.net (mail-oak-1.pilot.net [198.232.147.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA24962 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u2.pilot.net (unknown-17-117.pilot.net [204.48.17.117]) by mail-oak-1.pilot.net with ESMTP id TAA06058 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dc3.pilot.net (dc3.pilot.net [204.48.17.11]) by u2.pilot.net (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id TAA12568 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (wadlow@localhost) by dc3.pilot.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00900 for ; Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: davet@ttfn.com Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 20:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Message-Id: <199704180306.UAA02781@pooh.ttfn.com> Resent-To: davet@ricochet.net X-Authentication-Warning: dc3.pilot.net: wadlow owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:15:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Wadlow Reply-To: Tom Wadlow To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Interesting problem Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Prev-Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 58347dc3c3139d68ec8bca3778fb82b2 X-Filter: mailagent [version 3.0 PL53] for davet@ttfn.com Hi, I've run into an interesting problem in installing FreeBSD 2.2.1 on an the following system: - NEC Versa 6030X (133Mhz Pentium, 32MB Ram, 1.4GB disk) - Megahertz X-Jack 10BaseT PCMCIA card. I'm using the latest and greatest PAO boot.flp image. I also have a 6030H laptop (same thing except the X has a 1024x768 display and the H has an 800x600) that runs Linux. To verify the 6030X hardware, I pulled the hard drive out of the '30H and installed it in the '30X. It boots, PCMCIA works, Ethernet card works. Going back to the blank (well, it had Win95 on it, so it's *effectively* blank...) hard drive, I boot from the PAO floppy. I go through the install sequence for PCMCIA. It sees the PCMCIA, sees the Megahertz card. I go through the installation selection, and it prompts me for all the network stuff, which I enter. It tries to set the default route and connect to ftp.freebsd.org. This fails. Pinging the IP that the laptop should be at fails. Going to the emergency shell, I fiddle with ifconfig and notice that if I do an "ifconfig sn0 up", the interface comes alive. So I powercycle the machine, go through the sequence again, but this time, I supply "up" as an additional ifconfig argument in the network part. So far so good. It begins the installation. Meanwhile, on my Sun, I've got a "ping -s" going to the laptop. It is showing delay times of 250-1500 milliseconds. My Sun and the laptop are on the same segment. A ping to another machine on the same segment shows 0 msec delays. A ping to the Linux running on the '30H, with the same Megahertz card and same Ethernet cable shows 0 msec. But hell, it's working, so I proceed. The installation starts, and it connects to ftp.freebsd.org. Starts downloading. It's slower than molasses, but it's working. I leave the ping running from the Sun. Approximately 90 seconds after the sn0 interface is first brought up, it stops. No more downloading. No more pings. Emergency shell ifconfig shows it's still up, but ifconfig up/down/whatever has no effect on it. It's just locked up. Power cycling resets it. Repeating the process, it happens again. Using a different Ethernet card, same problem. Shifting the disk to the '30H, same problem. So it seems to be bound to the software, not the hardware, as the only bit of hardware that stays the same is the hard disk (as I only have one expendable one). Note that this same Megahertz card works great (and is quite fast) on a Twinhead 486 system running FreeBSD 2.2-Something-GAMMA, with the PAO stuff installed. Any thoughts? --Tom ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <15740.861387639.3@nomad.geoplex.com> Content-MD5: iLZ2WltyIsLHPY+3HL+eTg== Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -- = T.T.F.N., Dave Truesdell ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0-- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 11:27:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA23896 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA23891 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA09872 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA23302; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:22:03 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:22:03 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: dennis cc: Nate Williams , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418121536.00b52b60@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > At 09:22 AM 4/18/97 -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > >> Why is this "annoucement" such a big secret? Are you just not sure > >> yet? You complain about no commercial vendors not being interested in > >> FreeBSD, and then you give us this horsecrap about "wait 90 days for > >> the big unveiling..." > > > >You've obviously never dealt with other commercial vendors before. > >Right now as we speak my company is waiting with baited breath for two > >companies (Symantec and IONA) to release their next products, which are > >*critical* to our future success, since the # of bugs and missing > >features in the current crop make it useless for long-term success. All > >attempts to let us know *IF* our bugs are fixed, whether or not new > >features that exist in other vendors products, and anything that will > >help us to make decisions are not told. > > > >This is *common* with all organizations, at least with FreeBSD you get > >*hints* as to what's coming down the pike by looking at commit messages, > >with commercial companies you cross your fingers and hope for the best. > > Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. > Why does a "free" OS have secrets? And this is not about fixing bugs, > believe me I understand about bugs, its about having to reengineer > freebsd based systems every couple of months..... Well, a free OS may not have sectrets (besides those you can find out about in the source) but those participating in developing it, especially different commercial bodies do have secrets. Just speculating: if some company (be it BSDI, Digital, the little green aliens from the Mars or somebody wholly different) wants to contribute something to FreeBSD, yet have it not be known to the larger publicity (to avoid rumors, out of time queries, etc.) before it is ready they certainly should have the right. The same holds true if somebody is working on a commercial, obj linkable SMP support for FreeBSD. Sander NB! I talk only for myself and anything presented above is to the best of my knowledge only speculation - especialy the part about the aliens :-) > > I'm just getting tired of getting hit in the nuts for not supporting > -current....the fact that the release is out of date a week after its > out is a very bad thing and really needs to change... > > Dennis > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 11:56:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25800 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25794 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by who.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA09914 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01685; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:52:55 -0700 (MST) From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199704181852.LAA01685@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:52:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704181705.KAA02274@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 18, 97 10:05:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The Hastings bookstores in Utah carry the FreeBSD CDROM's. Not as many > as Linux, but then there aren't as many FreeBSD's. > > I have yet to see FreeBSD in any store here in AZ. Agreed -- even checking the "off retail" outlets (e.g., Bookman's, used software places, etc.). --don From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 12:00:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25980 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA25972 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from super-g.inch.com by agora.rdrop.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0wIItN-0008ylC; Fri, 18 Apr 97 12:00 PDT Received: from localhost (spork@localhost) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA23711; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:02:17 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Michael Smith cc: Adrian Chadd , imp@village.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WhistleJets (was Re: Another Linux Religious war) In-Reply-To: <199704180303.MAA21085@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I spoke to a salesperson there as I immediately saw that it did many things that we need done for our T1 and "smart building" customers, but I've been unsuccessful in getting any info about whether it will (I know it technically *can*) do ether-ether routing in areas where we deliver via ethernet. They also mentioned a "T1" model was in Beta... The problem is, I can't get them to sell us one. Anyone have a good sales contact there? Thanks, Charles On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > Adrian Chadd stands accused of saying: > > > > I know a lot of places are making up their own solutions, I know at least > > a major ISP in Perth is marketing the "Phoenix" server which does > > basically the same as the WhistleJet, but with Linux instead. > > Heh, and we all know who they are, right? > > I've been trying to talk Whistle into selling into the Australian > market; there are a lot of people in the 'right' places here who, > IMHO, would consider something like the WJ _exactly_ the right thing > to have. > > In most particular, Telstra have pulled some interesting stuff that > means that a business could have a full-time 'net connection for $500 > once-off and less then 20c/MB. For an org with a network of Mac/PC > system (common), something like the WJ would just become the "Internet > machine" in conjunction with this. I have been _itching_ to be able > to sell this to people; I haven't dared try to put together something > as complex single-handed though 8( > > > Adrian > > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 12:08:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA26335 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26313 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA04796; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:12:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418150347.00b0b604@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:03:54 -0400 To: Terry Lambert , nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 09:57 AM 4/18/97 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Uhh, yeah. You want stability, then you can't have 'brand-new' >> features. You can't have it both ways. >> >> To put it into a scenario you might understand. >> >> : I want to beta-test your newest product before it's released >> : publically, but it better be *rock* solid since I need your latest >> : driver to handle the huge network loads I'm using. And, I'll complain >> : if it makes my machine unstable. > >That looks like what he actually wants, as opposed to what he says >he thinks he wants. > >Why can't the latest driver work in a rock solid system, or why >can't a rock solid driver work in the latest system? A beta user >accepts some risk, but they shouldn't have to risk everything. > No..its more like..why can't the new features be smoothly integrated into the existing release product without having to create an entirely new animal. db From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 12:16:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA26741 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26736 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06203; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704181915.MAA06203@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Peter Dufault cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:44:13 EDT." <199704181144.HAA17161@hda.hda.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:15:58 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I get : time dd if=/dev/zero of=/spare/test bs=3456000 count=30 30+0 records in 30+0 records out 103680000 bytes transferred in 36.080174 secs (2873600 bytes/sec) 0.000u 5.297s 0:37.18 14.2% 78+9000k 8+1641io 6pf+0w The partition is on a sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 and the adapter is a 2940w. Tnks, Amancio >From The Desk Of Peter Dufault : > > Lets see, > > We can daisy chain buffers in physical memory pending upon the resolution > > and the amount of memory available for the system. > > > > A good resolution for mpeg is 320x240 30 frames/sec for yuv12 that translat es > > to 3456000 bytes/sec so lets called it 3.5MB/sec substain thruput. > > What kind of performance can you get now through the file system > to your disks? On my not-fancy system I see 1974857/sec saving 30 > seconds of "video" at a block size of 3456000 to a Fujitsu disk. > (dd if=/dev/zero of=/sd1/A/foo bs=3456000 count=30). Note that > I've optimized nothing. > > Since you can apparently collect the video into a suitably aligned > user buffer and I assume that there is some FIFO on the board to > give you some time to reprogram at frame done interrupt time, a > simple driver with no double buffering other than a regular start > queue (so that the done interrupt has a place to store incoming > data in), "team", and "dd" may be all you need to store video > through the file system on a lightly loaded fast system. It will > provide a starting point to see where to focus our efforts, and > "dd if=/dev/yuv12 of=~/clip.yuv" is a good interface to support > even if only for debugging. > > Peter > > -- > Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation > HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 12:45:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA28321 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28307 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA05040; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418154140.00a1eb38@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:41:43 -0400 To: "John S. Dyson" From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 02:02 PM 4/18/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >> >> Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. >> Why does a "free" OS have secrets? And this is not about fixing bugs, >> believe me I understand about bugs, its about having to reengineer >> freebsd based systems every couple of months..... >> > >Sorry, but we ARE dealing with VERY VERY VERY big commercial companies. >Much bigger than etinc... Doesn't mean that etinc isn't valuable, but >there IS stuff going on... > Ah, so FreeBSD is not as much of a Free O/S as we are led to believe? What we, as the public, see is the by-product of special projects for these "companies". NOW, I understand....the motivation has little to do with good of the general user base.... db From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 12:51:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA28781 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA28774 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id VAA09157 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:51:03 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05889; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:30:17 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:30:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199704181930.VAA05889@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.6 Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) Organization: Private BSD site, Dresden X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) Subject: Re: _BSD_OFF_T_ type long long (fwd) To: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anybody feeling compelled? ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Todd C Miller Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Subject: Re: _BSD_OFF_T_ type long long Date: 7 Apr 1997 11:56:58 -0600 Organization: Courtesan Consulting Lines: 11 Sender: millert@home.courtesan.com Message-ID: <5ibcha$27p$1@xyzzy.home.courtesan.com> Reply-To: millert@courtesan.com (Todd C Miller) X-Newsposter: Pnews 4.0-test45 (19 Oct 96) >From the keyboard of bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans): > dd seek offsets are still broken. There is an obvious overflow bug > in pos_in(), and 32-bit block numbers are used throughout, so when > the block size is small, offsets are more limited than in the kernel. You may wish to take a look at the changes I made to dd(1) in OpenBSD. They fix the dd problems I was seeing... - todd -- Todd C. Miller Sysadmin/Consultant Todd.Miller@courtesan.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 13:00:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29469 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA29456 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA02638; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:57:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704181957.MAA02638@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:57:51 -0700 (MST) Cc: dufault@hda.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704181021.MAA08439@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Apr 18, 97 12:21:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Pre-allocate the file; pre-allocate the blocks of a file; pre-set > > up some control info for a transfer, mmap a set of blocks for the > > video card driver to dump data into; have the driver chain to the > > next block and interrupt you on each transfer, dump the video frames > > to the pre-allocated store. > > and probably, in addition to preallocation, make sure that your write() > calls are aligned to the FS/device blocksize otherwise (probably) each > write will be preceeded by a hidden read to take care of fragmentation ? Actually, the block mapping overhead is higher if you aren't on a page multiple boundry and not a page size; that appears to be the fastest path in the VM code. Otherwise you end up manipulating multiple mappings for each operation. Follow /sys/kern/vfs_bio.c, specifically down through vfs_busy_pages() into the bowels of the VM system for details. I think in some very specific-use circumstances, the best bet would be a 4k FS block size. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 13:03:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29662 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-18.netcom.ca [207.181.94.146]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29652 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA13746; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:01:59 -0300 (ADT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:01:59 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: dennis cc: Terry Lambert , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418150347.00b0b604@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > At 09:57 AM 4/18/97 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Uhh, yeah. You want stability, then you can't have 'brand-new' > >> features. You can't have it both ways. > >> > >> To put it into a scenario you might understand. > >> > >> : I want to beta-test your newest product before it's released > >> : publically, but it better be *rock* solid since I need your latest > >> : driver to handle the huge network loads I'm using. And, I'll complain > >> : if it makes my machine unstable. > > > >That looks like what he actually wants, as opposed to what he says > >he thinks he wants. > > > >Why can't the latest driver work in a rock solid system, or why > >can't a rock solid driver work in the latest system? A beta user > >accepts some risk, but they shouldn't have to risk everything. > > > > No..its more like..why can't the new features be smoothly integrated into the > existing release product without having to create an entirely new animal. Just speculating, but because they make use of other features that only exist in newer release/development trees? That's it, let's backport all the stable stuff to 2.0 so that those still running that can use it... NAWT Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 13:03:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29670 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA29300 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:57:52 -0700 (PDT) From: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA03326; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:57:29 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:57:29 -0500 (EST) To: dennis Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418122555.00b4b100@etinc.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > > I UNDERSTAND the strategy..what Im saying is that is a loser in > the commercial world. if you are happy with that...fine. I'm happy. I don't need an OS with lots of cool features that will occasionally break, even if it's called Windows 95. > > I know thats it a good OS that noone uses.... > I use it, and that's enough for me :). Actually I don't use FreeBSD because "many people uses it". > I just got of the phone with a guy whose choices are Linux or Cisco. I > couldn't even give him a freebsd system...'cause he had no idea > what it is. You have no idea how frustrating that is. > I don't consider it frustrating, if the guy needs a Linux or a Cisco it's his problem. Linux does somethings and Cisco does others, His problem is not that he doesn't know FreeBSD, his problem is that he doesn't know what he needs. ...Remember me not buy anything from you ! Pedro. > > db > > > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 13:04:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29761 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA29680 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA02654; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:00:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182000.NAA02654@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:00:41 -0700 (MST) Cc: dufault@hda.com, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704181044.MAA08521@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Apr 18, 97 12:44:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > probably the latter :) > > I have IDE disks (WD Caviar) streming files at about 3MB/s (sustained > over about 10 minutes) with a Pentium 133 running "tv" at the same > time. Even if the raw disk speed would go up to 10MB/s I doubt the copy > overhead would barely slow down the process on a PPro. For what it's worth, we heavily profiled the entire FS framework, and by far the biggest overhead was the (~80%) time spent in the copy in uiomove() (there was a lot of time spent waiting for the driver to do its job, but that's not accounted against the process). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 13:20:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA00852 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA00839 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA09389 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:20:45 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA06023; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:12:37 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970418221237.HJ56827@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:12:37 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Booting from IDE CD-ROM... References: <199704181732.KAA18571@vegas.ibu.sj.nec.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199704181732.KAA18571@vegas.ibu.sj.nec.com>; from Eric Lunow on Apr 18, 1997 10:32:33 -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Eric Lunow wrote: > Does FreeBSD support booting from an IDE CD-ROM ? No, but maybe your BIOS does. :-) Read Jordan's hints about his recent success with bootable CDs... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 13:36:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01828 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01819 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA03517; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:35:06 -0700 (PDT) To: Narvi cc: dennis , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:22:03 +0300." Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:35:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3515.861395705@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just speculating: if some company (be it BSDI, Digital, the > little green aliens from the Mars or somebody wholly different) wants to > contribute something to FreeBSD, yet have it not be known to the larger > publicity (to avoid rumors, out of time queries, etc.) before it is ready > they certainly should have the right. Thank you. That's precisely the situation here (and the Martians say hello, BTW, and simply wish it to be known that the whole "Mars Attacks" thing has got them pretty sensitive about adverse publicity). I'm sure that if Dennis were also to design a new card that gave you T1/E1 Frame Relay connectivity for the price of a standard serial port and he had some of us BETA testing it under conditions of "please please don't talk about the details of this until it's ready" (not that Dennis would ever consider working that closely with us - it would rob him of the ability to fire flaming arrows at us from a safe distance, for one thing), he probably would not welcome disclosure in -hackers on the full details of his product and planned business model. It is, of course, the usual Dennis hypocracy that he would demand this of anyone else's commercial arrangement, however. It is this and other aspects of his behavior that have caused me to discount Dennis as a serious player in this business. He may have a technically sound product (possibly even the best currently available), but the "human factors" side of dealing with Emerging Technologies has caused me to recommend against using anything they make - my clients would *never* forgive me for inflicting Dennis on them, no matter how well the product worked, and I can only hope that SDL Communications can get their Frame Relay act together soon since I can at least say that they're seasoned professionals who don't appear to make a sport of biting their own customer's heads off at the slightest provocation*. Jordan * This is based on *multiple* personal emails I've received from actual customers of ETINC who wished to cry on my shoulder for awhile after making this very mistake. I have no personal opinion of their products, given that I've never used them, and Dennis's "customer support" was also the topic of a small gathering at USENIX, mine being, if anything, one of the more mild opinions expressed. Dennis has made his own bed and now he's simply going to have to lie in it. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 13:55:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02610 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02603 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA02753; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:53:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182053.NAA02753@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Accomodating Terry To: michaelh@cet.co.jp Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:53:44 -0700 (MST) Cc: ccsanady@nyx.pr.mcs.net, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Apr 18, 97 02:19:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Can we do the new fs technology branch or does somebody have a better > idea? More importantly. Terry, are you even willing to work in a > separate branch of the repository or is Current the only thing acceptable? My main interest is in not having to reintegrate changes over and over and over so that I can do what I need to do, and still benefit from other contributors developement work at the same time. This is basically the justification I give for why commercial entities should contribute their changes back to the BSD they change. The big bottleneck in this right now is that there is no way for me (or anyone else) to assert local version control without committing changes through the main tree and supping them back in my local copy. This isn't a problem for committers because they always commit to the main tree, so the main tree supplies them local version control for no additional effort on their part. This limits me to one of the following approaches: A) The "monoblock" 1) Do a huge change 2) Wait for it to be integrated in some form 3) Perform the next huge change 4) goto 2 B) The "nibble" 1) Do a huge change 2) Submit a tiny part of the huge change 3) Wait for it to be integrated in some form 4) Is the huge change done? No... goto 2 5) Perform the next huge change 6) goto 2 C) The "consultant" 1) Fix a bug from the tracking database 2) Have no fun doing it 3) Wait for it to be integrated in some form 4) Pickup the next bug and fix it 5) goto 2 D) The "take my ball ang go home" 1) Strike off on my own version 2) Diminish both efforts in the process 3) Wait for a similar issue about my own version to piss off someone else sufficiently 4) Have them strike off on their own too 5) goto 2 I don't like (C) or (D) for reasons which should be self evident; I've tried (C) for a while and had one or two successes (like the fsck inode reference count bug when creating "lost+found"), but (C)(2) is the kicker... it may be needed, but not fun. Like a floppy tape driver or the X.25 maintenance, or a new sysinstall; all are needed, all are not a lot of fun (neither's working on the build stuff, which is why the people who volunteer for it want an up front problem definition). I've tried (A) and met with limited success (LKM's, SYSINIT, etc.). I'm currently engaged in trying (B), with code actually getting reviewed by Julian and Sean (so far) but no passing of (B)(3) yet. If (A) or (B) could be accomodated with a seperate branch, a seperate branch would be sufficient. I question the difficulty of "going mainstream" with a part of the code in such a branch (it seems that you would end up with unacceptable all/none choices), or of it being able to "keep up" with mainstream developement: mainstream -------> branch | | | v | branch | + | local changes | | mainstream -------> branch <<< How can this happen + + without a code slave? changes local changes + changes If this is an imagined hurdle, it'd be nice to know. I'm up for an option (E), (F), or (G), too, if you can see some options that I'm not considering; I'm willing to admit the possibility of a blind spot. I think I'm very like a commercial developer trying to contribute changes back to the main line code base. Actually, some of the changes were made to benefit products or research projects for my current employer ...which doesn't necessarily mean they are not suitable for a wider audience. So for some things, I really *am* a commercial developer trying to contribute changes back to offload the reintegration burden. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 13:55:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02634 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02625 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13065; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:54:49 -0700 (PDT) From: The Devil Himself To: dennis cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418150347.00b0b604@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > At 09:57 AM 4/18/97 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Uhh, yeah. You want stability, then you can't have 'brand-new' > >> features. You can't have it both ways. > >> > >> To put it into a scenario you might understand. > >> > >> : I want to beta-test your newest product before it's released > >> : publically, but it better be *rock* solid since I need your latest > >> : driver to handle the huge network loads I'm using. And, I'll complain > >> : if it makes my machine unstable. > > > >That looks like what he actually wants, as opposed to what he says > >he thinks he wants. > > > >Why can't the latest driver work in a rock solid system, or why > >can't a rock solid driver work in the latest system? A beta user > >accepts some risk, but they shouldn't have to risk everything. > > > > No..its more like..why can't the new features be smoothly integrated into the > existing release product without having to create an entirely new animal. > > db Good idea. In fact, why even have seperate releases? Let's just backport everything to 1.0, and anytime we add something, we'll just remake the entire distribution, so we don't have to worry about new numbers??... What do you think a new version's for, anyway?? Think we release new versions for our health? No, a new version comes out because there are new features. That's why DOS 6.0 came out; MS added an antivirus, a defrag program, a compression program, etc. to 5.0, plus other stuff. They created a new version (gasp!!) just because they had new features. How dare they... See Terry? Someone else is getting a 'shaddup'. Isn't there a list called ' wannit_rightnow@freebsd.org' for this? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* |FreeBSD is good. FreeBSD is our friend. UNIX is our god.| *Micro$oft is bad. Micro$oft causes problems.* |MicroBSD??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!| |"I hate quotes in signature files" :-} MAtthew Fuller| *fullermd@narcissus.ml.org FreeBSD junkie* |http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd Westminster College| *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 13:59:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA02889 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-18.netcom.ca [207.181.94.146]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02884 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 13:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA14031; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:58:59 -0300 (ADT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:58:59 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: dennis cc: "John S. Dyson" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418154140.00a1eb38@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > At 02:02 PM 4/18/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > >> > >> Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. > >> Why does a "free" OS have secrets? And this is not about fixing bugs, > >> believe me I understand about bugs, its about having to reengineer > >> freebsd based systems every couple of months..... > >> > > > >Sorry, but we ARE dealing with VERY VERY VERY big commercial companies. > >Much bigger than etinc... Doesn't mean that etinc isn't valuable, but > >there IS stuff going on... > > > Ah, so FreeBSD is not as much of a Free O/S as we are led to believe? What > we, as the public, see is the by-product of special projects for these > "companies". > NOW, I understand....the motivation has little to do with good of the > general user > base.... No, you don't understand, but we all knew that *messages* ago... I realize that this continued attempt to make you understand is about as good as reading /dev/null, but let's try again... FreeBSD is the operating system...follow so far? Okay, good...now, its *free* and is worked on by several hundred ppl, all contributing bits and pieces to the whole, which is one of the many reasons its *free* Now, along comes, for arguments sake, Intel and they talk to the core team and say "hey, we'll dedicate some of our resources towards helping to improve your SMP support" and they dedicate both manhours and hardware resources towards the effort. For political reasons (Dept A is offering the resources while Dept B is heavily into Linux and wants nothing to do with FreeBSD), Intel wants this kept as quiet as possible so that Dept B doesn't start raising a stink. In 3 months, we have rock solid SMP support because of that aid, at which time FreeBSD, Inc can announce 'thanks to the help of...'... Now, IMHO, keeping *that* a secret for 3mos and then dropping it into our laps seems to be 'for the good of the general user base', since if they didn't agree to keep it secret, we wouldn't have that aid... I believe such a think generally falls under an NDA, where they have to sign a silly piece of legally binding piece of paper in return for something, and is pretty standard operating procedures for large (and small) companies... This argument works for both hardware (DPT RAID controllers?) and software (StarOffice?) Of course, Dennis, if you don't like how the core team is running things, there is OpenBSD and NetBSD out there...but I would think that for various of their projects, there are similar NDAs in effect *shrug* Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:01:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03080 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03074 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02785; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:01:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182101.OAA02785@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: O_EXCL To: jmacd@CS.Berkeley.EDU (Josh MacDonald) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:01:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704180627.XAA15953@paris.CS.Berkeley.EDU> from "Josh MacDonald" at Apr 17, 97 11:27:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In the man page for open, it says that O_EXCL causes symlinks not to > be followed. However, when I was reading the code, I found that its > broken. In the open syscall, it does NDINIT with the FOLLOW flag already > set, and then in vn_open, which is called shortly thereafter with the > nameidata struct, it does: > > if ((fmode & O_EXCL) == 0) > ndp->.... |= FOLLOW;\ > > It looks to me like its broken, and either it should be fixed with the > trivial fix, or the documentation for open fixed. It looks broken because of the explicit compare for zero. An explicit compare for zero (x == 0) is a longer, harder to intutively understand way of saying (!x) that is used because it's somehow stylish (actually, I think it originated at about the same time the compiler started bitching about assignments using the lvalue a a boolean in 'if' statements). So the FOLLOW is set only if the O_EXCL flag is *not* present. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:04:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03256 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03250 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02799; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:03:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182103.OAA02799@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: optical drives To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:03:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: imp@village.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199704180745.RAA24693@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Apr 18, 97 05:15:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > dump 0f /dev/rst0 /jaz ; scsiformat /jaz ; fdisk ; disklabel ; newfs /jaz > > mount /jaz ; restore -rf /dev/rst0 > > > > fixed it. > > Mine refused to read the filesystem (bad blocks in the metadata), but the > disk was expendable (scratch disk). However, it would fail a low-level > SCSI format command, so I was fairly sure it was _toast_. For what it is worth, I have had significant problems with the SCSI cable supplied with my external JAZ drive; apparently, they are building bad cables. Also, if you are relying on auto-termination, it only functions if you choose the correct SCSI connector (the top one on the JAZ drive). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:10:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03545 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03540 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA03796; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:09:44 -0700 (PDT) To: dennis cc: "John S. Dyson" , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:41:43 EDT." <3.0.32.19970418154140.00a1eb38@etinc.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:09:43 -0700 Message-ID: <3794.861397783@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ah, so FreeBSD is not as much of a Free O/S as we are led to believe? What > we, as the public, see is the by-product of special projects for these > "companies". > NOW, I understand....the motivation has little to do with good of the > general user > base.... Damn, Dennis has guessed our secret. Yep, we've been secret shills of the industry all these years, working on clandestine projects for everyone from IBM (AIX? It's just FreeBSD with a different label and some UI crap layered on) and the American National Security Agency, where we do perimeter security systems for Area 51 in the Nevada desert - whoops!! Did I actually admit to that?! Better bite down on my cyanide capsule before the Black Helicopters come for me! Argh! It's too late! They're here! Well, anyway, I hope the rest of the team can keep our highly-commercial efforts alive. God knows we're certainly making piles and piles of money from all this, and I've had to rent a trailer just to store all the "black project" funding we've been getting over the years. Trust Dennis to see The Truth(tm) - I should have known better than to let anything slip to him! Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:21:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04282 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA04266 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02823; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:17:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182117.OAA02823@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:17:17 -0700 (MST) Cc: dennis@etinc.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704181522.JAA21382@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 18, 97 09:22:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > All > attempts to let us know *IF* our bugs are fixed, whether or not new > features that exist in other vendors products, and anything that will > help us to make decisions are not told. > > This is *common* with all organizations, at least with FreeBSD you get > *hints* as to what's coming down the pike by looking at commit messages, > with commercial companies you cross your fingers and hope for the best. The commercial organizations I've dealt with (and in) must schedule for "minimal feature set", "expected feature set", and then "stretch goals" over and above that. What actually goes out depends on the test cycle process, and the quota on Sev 2 bugs with install/data-file workarounds and Sev 3 bugs with workarounds. Generally, as test cycles are compressed, quotas go up. If a "minimal feature" causes a Sev 1 (product unusable), and it was not in the previous release, then it gets canned. Testing is usually, if anything, rushed, so there is no way they can reasonably commit to any feature set other than that of the previous product. Short of adopting quality assurance practices and accepting schedule slip (and the people who set the schedule are driven by the semianual performance review -- or the quarterly report, if the company is "downsized" enough that those people have the ability to damage engineering). If they told you it was supposed to be fixed in the next product, and then it wasn't, you'd scream blue murder. If they told you it was fixed in the next product, and then delayed the promised ship date, you'd scream blue murder. You can have a feature set, or you can have a date, but you can't have both, and a date will keep the stock price up. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:24:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04441 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA04436 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02842; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:23:06 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182123.OAA02842@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: DEC 21140-Ax problems resolved? To: adrian@virginia.edu Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:23:06 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" at Apr 18, 97 11:23:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [ N.B. This ia an augmneted repost that drew ] > [ little response from freebsd-questions. ] > > I searched the mail archives and find no mention of the problem > with this chipset after mid-March. Has the problem with the de0 driver > been resolved? > > I get the same problems I found in many of the posts. The link > light is on for out 10Base-T hub, then it goes off after the kernel probes > and switches the device into 100Base-T mode. > > I have tried using the NetBSD driver as well as the -currrent > one. In both cases the kernel won't compile. In the -current case, I > think I may have missed a crucial file. The NetBSD may just be to far > out of synch. >From what I recollect, this isn't a driver problem, it's a link flag problem. Use 'man ifconfig' and modify your /etc/sysconfig appropriately to get the other link. Also from what I recollect, there are three modes: "autosense", "specific link", and "CMOS default setting". I believe the driver selects the third. If that fails, the NetBSD driver was recently announced as ported on the -current list (which is probably a better place to look, especially if the 'x' in your '-Ax' is recent, since your card may have overflow problems which need to be worked around in software). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:26:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA04688 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narcissus.ml.org (root@brosenga.Pitzer.edu [134.173.120.201]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04675 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by narcissus.ml.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13289 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:26:41 -0700 (PDT) From: The Devil Himself cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Accomodating Terry In-Reply-To: <199704182053.NAA02753@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > D) The "take my ball ang go home" > > 1) Strike off on my own version > 2) Diminish both efforts in the process > 3) Wait for a similar issue about my own version to > piss off someone else sufficiently > 4) Have them strike off on their own too > 5) goto 2 Hmmm.... Linux? ;) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* |FreeBSD is good. FreeBSD is our friend. UNIX is our god.| *Micro$oft is bad. Micro$oft causes problems.* |MicroBSD??? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!| |"I hate quotes in signature files" :-} MAtthew Fuller| *fullermd@narcissus.ml.org FreeBSD junkie* |http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd Westminster College| *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:34:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05190 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05173 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24797; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:29:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:29:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704182129.PAA24797@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), dennis@etinc.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704182117.OAA02823@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704181522.JAA21382@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704182117.OAA02823@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The commercial organizations I've dealt with (and in) must schedule > for "minimal feature set", "expected feature set", and then "stretch > goals" over and above that. Then the organizations you dealt with are *very* different than the organizations I've dealt with. I've found that the FreeBSD 'release engineering/software engineering' cycle is orders of magnitudes better than REAL (tm) companies I've worked for and with. > If they told you it was supposed to be fixed in the next product, and > then it wasn't, you'd scream blue murder. Happens more often than not in my experience. The behavior of the bug has changed, but the bug still exists. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:35:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05292 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05281 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02890; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:29:56 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182129.OAA02890@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:29:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: dennis@etinc.com, nate@mt.sri.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704181622.KAA21978@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 18, 97 10:22:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'm just getting tired of getting hit in the nuts for not supporting > > -current....the fact that the release is out of date a week after its > > out is a very bad thing and really needs to change... > > That's complete and utter BS. 2.2 had a 8 week release cycle, so you > had two months from the time the start of BETA testing was announced > until the time it was released to get your product up-to-snuff. Actually, I can't speak for Dennis, but it would take us that long to get the project through the AART committee, then through the budgetting committee, if the 8 weeks happened to start on the wrong day of the month. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:39:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05440 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05434 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA05848; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418173355.00a219a4@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:33:59 -0400 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 01:35 PM 4/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >> Just speculating: if some company (be it BSDI, Digital, the >> little green aliens from the Mars or somebody wholly different) wants to >> contribute something to FreeBSD, yet have it not be known to the larger >> publicity (to avoid rumors, out of time queries, etc.) before it is ready >> they certainly should have the right. > >Thank you. That's precisely the situation here (and the Martians say >hello, BTW, and simply wish it to be known that the whole "Mars >Attacks" thing has got them pretty sensitive about adverse publicity). > >I'm sure that if Dennis were also to design a new card that gave you >T1/E1 Frame Relay connectivity for the price of a standard serial port >and he had some of us BETA testing it under conditions of "please >please don't talk about the details of this until it's ready" (not >that Dennis would ever consider working that closely with us - it >would rob him of the ability to fire flaming arrows at us from a safe >distance, for one thing), he probably would not welcome disclosure in >-hackers on the full details of his product and planned business >model. It is, of course, the usual Dennis hypocracy that he would >demand this of anyone else's commercial arrangement, however. If it were secret you wouldnt be beta testing it for me. > >It is this and other aspects of his behavior that have caused me to >discount Dennis as a serious player in this business. He may have a >technically sound product (possibly even the best currently >available), but the "human factors" side of dealing with Emerging >Technologies has caused me to recommend against using anything they >make - my clients would *never* forgive me for inflicting Dennis on >them, no matter how well the product worked, and I can only hope that >SDL Communications can get their Frame Relay act together soon since I >can at least say that they're seasoned professionals who don't appear >to make a sport of biting their own customer's heads off at the >slightest provocation*. If you judge customer support by knowing the answers to customers questions right away and helping them get the product installed our support is superior. If you expect us to configure your router for you, debug problems with bad telco lines and teach you how to find conflicts in your PC, and educate you on the fundamentals of telecommuncations then our support stinks. SDL has been working on frame relay for 2 1/2 years now.....you really want to use the result? > > Jordan > >* This is based on *multiple* personal emails I've received from > actual customers of ETINC who wished to cry on my shoulder for > awhile after making this very mistake. I have no personal opinion > of their products, given that I've never used them, and Dennis's > "customer support" was also the topic of a small gathering at USENIX, > mine being, if anything, one of the more mild opinions expressed. > Dennis has made his own bed and now he's simply going to have to lie > in it. > My opinion of you is similar...but you already knew that. :-) anyone who goes crying to you is far beyond help. And BTW, my bed is quite fluffy thank you. Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:42:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05679 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05674 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02940; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:39:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182139.OAA02940@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:39:50 -0700 (MST) Cc: steve@visint.co.uk, jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19805.861384223@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 18, 97 10:23:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Wearing my ugly sales/marketing hat ] > I never meant to imply that we were the center of the universe, simply > that I'd seen the product in stores here. I can't speak for other > areas of the world simply because I don't live in those areas. QED. :-) Doesn't Walnut Creek CDROM have a GIS?!? I don't know how a modern sales organization could prosper without one... > I also talked with our sales manager yesterday about getting into more > retail stores and her comment was that we were definitely _trying_ to do > this on a more or less constant basis, but getting in bed with the Mafia > for a portion of their lucrative drug-and-sex trade is actually *easier* > than getting into some of these retail stores. They only buy from > certain distributors and those same distributors require some pretty > insane deals, including direct kick-backs and up-front subsidies > ("You give us $50,000 up-front and we'll agree to stock your product"). > > We're not quite big enough to support that kind of graft. :( Is this a "stocking fee" (illegal) or is it a consignment agreement (legal, but not the way you want to sell, if you sell by stuffing the channel and praying for rain...)? I could see Egghead wanting consignment. You have to shave them points to make up for it, but you *can* get them to buy. As to whether or not stuffing the channel and prayer are an appropriate way to sell, well... FreeBSD is (essentially) a UNIX-clone product... have you contacted the UNIX products division of Ingram Micro-D? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:45:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05830 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05817 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from archive.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa04049; 18 Apr 97 17:45 EDT Received: from stretch.cs.Virginia.edu (atf3r@stretch-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.14]) by archive.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA15908; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by stretch.cs.Virginia.edu (4.1/SMI-2.0) id AA23840; Fri, 18 Apr 97 17:45:17 EDT Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:45:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: adrian@virginia.edu To: Terry Lambert Cc: adrian@virginia.edu, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DEC 21140-Ax problems resolved? In-Reply-To: <199704182123.OAA02842@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > > [ N.B. This ia an augmneted repost that drew ] > > [ little response from freebsd-questions. ] > > > > I searched the mail archives and find no mention of the problem > > with this chipset after mid-March. Has the problem with the de0 driver > > been resolved? > > > > I get the same problems I found in many of the posts. The link > > light is on for out 10Base-T hub, then it goes off after the kernel probes > > and switches the device into 100Base-T mode. > > > > I have tried using the NetBSD driver as well as the -currrent > > one. In both cases the kernel won't compile. In the -current case, I > > think I may have missed a crucial file. The NetBSD may just be to far > > out of synch. > > >From what I recollect, this isn't a driver problem, it's a link > flag problem. Use 'man ifconfig' and modify your /etc/sysconfig > appropriately to get the other link. I tried -link{0,1,2} and none of them made a difference. > If that fails, the NetBSD driver was recently announced as ported > on the -current list (which is probably a better place to look, > especially if the 'x' in your '-Ax' is recent, since your card > may have overflow problems which need to be worked around in software). Specifically the chip is a 21140-AC. That's not too new. Which files do I need to get in addition to if_de.c? I tried this route, but I must have mised something, because it wouldn't compile. thanks, Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| Support your local programmer, System Administrator --->>>| STOP Software Patent Abuses NOW! NVL, NIIMS and Telemedicine Labs -->>| For an application and information Member: League for Programming Freedom ->| see: http://www.lpf.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:46:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05904 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05895 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA05899; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418174048.00af4084@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:40:52 -0400 To: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 03:29 PM 4/18/97 -0600, Nate Williams wrote: >> The commercial organizations I've dealt with (and in) must schedule >> for "minimal feature set", "expected feature set", and then "stretch >> goals" over and above that. > >Then the organizations you dealt with are *very* different than the >organizations I've dealt with. I've found that the FreeBSD 'release >engineering/software engineering' cycle is orders of magnitudes better >than REAL (tm) companies I've worked for and with. > >> If they told you it was supposed to be fixed in the next product, and >> then it wasn't, you'd scream blue murder. > >Happens more often than not in my experience. The behavior of the bug >has changed, but the bug still exists. Bugs are a different banana...we're talking about major features... You decide between Window 95 and NT by understanding what the product can do and what is expected to be available in the foreseeable future. If you had to reinstall the thing every 3 months there'd be a lot of people using something else db From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:48:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06038 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de (krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.132.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06033 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (krygier@localhost) by krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA29212; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:48:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de: krygier owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:48:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Klaus Werner Krygier To: adrian@virginia.edu cc: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Re: DEC 21140-Ax problems resolved? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > > I searched the mail archives and find no mention of the problem > with this chipset after mid-March. Has the problem with the de0 driver > been resolved? > I am also very interested in this problem, because we have five new powerful machines ready to run but they can't be used with FreeBSD for this reason. And I don't want to switch to Linux which seems to work very well with the same hardware. > I get the same problems I found in many of the posts. The link > light is on for out 10Base-T hub, then it goes off after the kernel probes > and switches the device into 100Base-T mode. > I am using a DEC EtherWORKS adapter DE520-AA with a DEC 21140-AB chip and have the same problem. The behaviour is exactly identical as you described. > I have tried using the NetBSD driver as well as the -currrent > one. In both cases the kernel won't compile. In the -current case, I > think I may have missed a crucial file. The NetBSD may just be to far > out of synch. I have tried to boot NetBSD directly and had the same problems too. Regards, Klaus Werner Krygier +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dr. Klaus Werner Krygier | Email: krygier@kph.uni-mainz.de | | Institut für Kernphysik | | | Johannes Gutenberg-Universität | Tel: +49-6131-39-2960 | | J.J.Becher-Weg 45 | +49-6131-39-5192 | | D-55099 Mainz | Fax: +49-6131-39-2964 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:49:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06141 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.nodak.edu (tinguely@plains.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.64]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06132 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tinguely@localhost) by plains.nodak.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA15042; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:49:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:49:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Tinguely Message-Id: <199704182149.QAA15042@plains.nodak.edu> To: jbryant@tfs.net Subject: Re: optical drives Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk using the Adaptec afdisk to remake the dos partition and then unix fdisk, disklabel, newfs (thanks Jim) lets the optical driver (od0) to use the drive. my problem is the original dos partition was usable with DOS, but when Unix read that MBR it recieved bad values. thank you all for your help. --mark. ps. I think a failure of the check_part with a bad MBR is better than panicing the system. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:50:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06250 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06242 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02985; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:48:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182148.OAA02985@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:48:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418150347.00b0b604@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 18, 97 03:03:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Why can't the latest driver work in a rock solid system, or why > >can't a rock solid driver work in the latest system? A beta user > >accepts some risk, but they shouldn't have to risk everything. > > No..its more like..why can't the new features be smoothly integrated into the > existing release product without having to create an entirely new animal. That's the "rock solid driver in the latest system" case, so a system with the driver can have the latest system's features as well. If you're talking about something else, then you are running a slightly different definition of "smoothly" or "integrated"; there is no inherent reason FreeBSD has to have any code, whatsoever, in common from version to version, except to deal with legacy issues. Even then, common code isn't really required -- only common interface points that don't change. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:50:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06295 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06286 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24975; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:50:31 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:50:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704182150.PAA24975@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: dennis Cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418174048.00af4084@etinc.com> References: <3.0.32.19970418174048.00af4084@etinc.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > You decide between Window 95 and NT by understanding what the product can > do and what is expected to be available in the foreseeable future. If you > had to > reinstall the thing every 3 months there'd be a lot of people using > something else Umm, have you *ever* used Win95 or NT? We *regularly* (easily every 3 months) have to re-install every few months (sometimes less than 3). At my wife's work, they re-install everything on a regular basis as well, and almost every company I know that uses any M$ OS recommends re-installing the OS at *least* once/year due to application upgrades. Re-installs are pretty common in the user world. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 14:51:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06334 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FNAL.FNAL.Gov (fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.110.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06323 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aduxb.fnal.gov ("port 36165"@aduxb.fnal.gov) by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.0-5 #3998) id <01IHUWA4VTWI000MU7@FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for hackers@freefall.freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:50:53 -0600 Received: from localhost by aduxb.fnal.gov (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA12239; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:50:51 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:50:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Richard Neswold Subject: Re: Accomodating Terry In-reply-to: <199704182059.NAA02898@freefall.freebsd.org> To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Reply-to: neswold@FNAL.GOV Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert said: > > More importantly. Terry, are you even willing to work in a > > separate branch of the repository or is Current the only thing acceptable? > > My main interest is in not having to reintegrate changes over and over > and over so that I can do what I need to do, and still benefit from > other contributors developement work at the same time. > > The big bottleneck in this right now is that there is no way for me > (or anyone else) to assert local version control without committing > changes through the main tree and supping them back in my local copy. I haven't tried this yet, because I'm still familarizing myself with CVS and CVSup, but this is how I was going to approach this problem: 1) Check out, from the repository, the branch I'm going to work on. 2) Go to the directory that contains the code I'm modifying. 3) Make an RCS subdirectory. 4) Use the RCS features of emacs to save intermediate changes to the RCS subdirectory. 5) Once I'm satisfied my changes are stable, commit them with CVS. Since emacs uses RCS, my local (buggy) history is stored in the RCS subdirectory. When I commit the final version, CVS should ignore the RCS directory and only commit the files I changed. Since no one cares about my local history (only my final, stable code) it doesn't matter that the RCS files are ignored. CVS updates will still keep me current. I get revision control of my changes while I develop. The main repository only gets my "final" source base. Am I missing something in this scenario? Rich ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Richard Neswold, Accelerator Div./Controls Dept | neswold@fnal.gov Fermilab, PO Box 500, MS 347, Batavia, IL 60510 | voice (630) 840-3454 'finger neswold@aduxb.fnal.gov' for PGP key | fax (630) 840-3093 From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:01:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06963 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06953 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24998; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:57:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:57:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704182157.PAA24998@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: dennis@etinc.com (dennis), nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704182148.OAA02985@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <3.0.32.19970418150347.00b0b604@etinc.com> <199704182148.OAA02985@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If you're talking about something else, then you are running a slightly > different definition of "smoothly" or "integrated"; there is no inherent > reason FreeBSD has to have any code, whatsoever, in common from version > to version, except to deal with legacy issues. Even then, common code > isn't really required -- only common interface points that don't change. That's total BS, and you know it. Almost *always* fixing bugs requires API/interface changes. That's the nature of the beast, and you know it as well as anyone, only you're trying to stir the pot again. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:01:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06996 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06991 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) id XAA15898; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:58:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: Eivind Eklund Message-Id: <199704182158.XAA15898@nic.follonett.no> Subject: Re: Accomodating Terry To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:58:08 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704182053.NAA02753@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 18, 97 01:53:44 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If (A) or (B) could be accomodated with a seperate branch, a seperate > branch would be sufficient. I question the difficulty of "going > mainstream" with a part of the code in such a branch (it seems that > you would end up with unacceptable all/none choices), or of it being > able to "keep up" with mainstream developement: > > mainstream -------> branch > | | > | v > | branch > | + > | local changes > | > | > mainstream -------> branch <<< How can this happen > + + without a code slave? > changes local changes > + > changes > > If this is an imagined hurdle, it'd be nice to know. It might be. You don't have to tag the entire tree, you can tag just the files you are working on. This will allow you to have a 'partial branch', while keeping nicely current on the rest of the tree. You will have to merge the changes done to the parts of the tree you are working on; however, this is usually fairly simple. If you are doing several set of unrelated changes, you can probably also get your own branch for each of these. If core is unwilling to give you commit-access even if you guarantee to stay in your own branch, a way of hacking some of the wanted features is by treatingthe FreeBSD main development as a vendor branch, and using cvs import to maintain the parts you don't change. This will require an upgrade of your CVS to 1.9 (which I don't know why isn't in the FreeBSD tree already; I've just never gotten around to asking). With CVS 1.8, it will try to import into the FreeBSD repository. If you have a good idea for how it would be possible to handle this situation (without thinking of what CVS can handle today), we can of course contact the cvs-info mailing-list and see if somebody there might benefit from similar features and can be convinced to write them :) Eivind / eivind@freebsd.org / perhaps@yes.no http://maybe.yes.no/perhaps/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:12:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07604 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA07597 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA03046; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:10:57 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182210.PAA03046@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org (The Devil Himself) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:10:57 -0700 (MST) Cc: dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "The Devil Himself" at Apr 18, 97 01:54:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > See Terry? Someone else is getting a 'shaddup'. > Isn't there a list called ' wannit_rightnow@freebsd.org' for this? I don't think so... but I may be prohibited from joining it because of being a charter member on the GetTheHellOutOfTheWayTheFutureIsComingWhetherYouDamnWellLikeItOrNot@ YouStinkingTechnophobicCowards.ORG list. It's served on the same machine as the GetTheHellOutOfTheWayYouAreGoing45MilesPerHourInTheFastLane@ DontYouRealizeThatYouAreOldAndDontHaveTimeToWasteLikeThis.ORG list. Of course, if you've shown any neo-luddite tendencies at all, your DNS won't even see the domain, let alone the mailserver letting you subscribe to the thing. Anyone named Kazinski need not apply. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:14:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07670 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.visigenic.com (odin.visigenic.com [204.179.98.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07661 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VSI48 (vsi48.visigenic.com [206.64.15.185]) by odin.visigenic.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA12985; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:14:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418151309.00c766d0@visigenic.com> X-Sender: toneil@visigenic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:13:10 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: "Tim Oneil" Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 02:09 PM 4/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >everyone from IBM (AIX? It's just FreeBSD with a different label and >some UI crap layered on) God, I hope not. AIX's arcane shared object management sucks. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:19:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA07858 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA07852 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA03086; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:18:12 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182218.PAA03086@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: DEC 21140-Ax problems resolved? To: adrian@virginia.edu Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:18:12 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" at Apr 18, 97 05:45:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If that fails, the NetBSD driver was recently announced as ported > > on the -current list (which is probably a better place to look, > > especially if the 'x' in your '-Ax' is recent, since your card > > may have overflow problems which need to be worked around in software). > > Specifically the chip is a 21140-AC. That's not too new. Which > files do I need to get in addition to if_de.c? I tried this route, but I > must have mised something, because it wouldn't compile. You need the new driver. The 'C' is a known rogue. There were some issues with the 21x40-?? where x=0 worked and x=1 didn't, but they were (I thought) resolved in -current. Here is Mark Dawson's posting on the subject of the hangup stuff... with fix. Like I said, you'd do better searching the -current archives. Note that this does not fully update the driver to the NetBSD state (from what I recall). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. ======================================================================== NetBSD's de driver (1.83 1997/03/25 21:12:17) has a fix for 21140A hangup's which is absent in FreeBSD's version... in tulip_pci_attach(): if (chipid == TULIP_21140A && revinfo <= 0x22) sc->tulip_features |= TULIP_HAVE_RXBUGGY; in tulip_intr_handler(): /* * Pass 2.[012] of the 21140A-A[CDE] may hang and/or corrupt data * on receive overflows. */ if ((misses & 0x0FFE0000) && (sc->tulip_features & TULIP_HAVE_RXBUGGY)) { /* * Stop the receiver process and spin until it's stopped. * Tell rx_intr to drop the packets it dequeues. */ TULIP_CSR_WRITE(sc, csr_command, sc->tulip_cmdmode & ~TULIP_CMD_RXRUN); while ((TULIP_CSR_READ(sc, csr_status) & TULIP_STS_RXSTOPPED) == 0) ; TULIP_CSR_WRITE(sc, csr_status, TULIP_STS_RXSTOPPED); sc->tulip_flags |= TULIP_RXBAD; } ======================================================================== From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:21:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA08036 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08029 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id RAA01776; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:20:53 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704182220.RAA01776@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418154140.00a1eb38@etinc.com> from dennis at "Apr 18, 97 03:41:43 pm" To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:20:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > At 02:02 PM 4/18/97 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > >> > >> Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. > >> Why does a "free" OS have secrets? And this is not about fixing bugs, > >> believe me I understand about bugs, its about having to reengineer > >> freebsd based systems every couple of months..... > >> > > > >Sorry, but we ARE dealing with VERY VERY VERY big commercial companies. > >Much bigger than etinc... Doesn't mean that etinc isn't valuable, but > >there IS stuff going on... > > > Ah, so FreeBSD is not as much of a Free O/S as we are led to believe? What > we, as the public, see is the by-product of special projects for these > "companies". > NOW, I understand....the motivation has little to do with good of the > general user > base.... > It is as free as free can be. Please read all of the private email that I sent you -- you are quoting very limited context. Sorry, but you are starting to look like a fool if you think that I can talk about what other companies are doing in public (especially when they might have asked me to be discreet and not make a public disclosure.) You are showing very poor respect to the other users in the user base if you think that people can be coerced into giving other peoples strategies away... Are you doing a service to the user base, say by contributing to the free part of the FreeBSD code base for example? No, you have PROPRIETARY drivers don't you? Does that mean that you are causing FreeBSD to have PROPRIETARY software in it? (BTW, I don't mind proprietary software, but you are kind-of like the pot calling the kettle black.) I think that it is great when companies can put proprietary layered products on various OSes (it is how industry works.) So, when are YOUR drivers going to be disclosed? When are you going to disclose your financials and strategies? If you told me privately, I would not disclose it without YOUR permission -- you are asking some people to do a very bad thing. I don't think that it is a very ethical practice to disclose other peoples proprietary information (including private email.) John From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:21:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA08059 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de (krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.132.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08049 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (krygier@localhost) by krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA29259 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:21:05 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de: krygier owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:21:04 +0200 (CEST) From: Klaus Werner Krygier To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: special memory device In-Reply-To: <19970416004851.LL04161@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > As Klaus Werner Krygier wrote: > > > Now I want to install a similar device which is compatible to the Sun > > solution. It will never be used by read/write i/o but only by mmaped i/o. > > It shall be able to do a dynamic remapping of the VMEbus window every time > > an address is accessed which is out of the current 64 KB window using the > > page fault mechanism. Is this possible? > > This sounds hard to do. Is your card using a real bus system (EISA, > PCI), so that you could map the entire memory at once? This would be > the simplest solution. > The card is a simple ISA card with an address space of only 64 KB, and I want to access at least 16 MB of the VMEbus. > Otherwise, i guess you gotta play VM games, by invalidating the pages > for the currently invisible device memory. You have to be notified > about the page fault (no idea how this might be done, but i'm sure > David or John could chime in here), invalidate the pages for the > currently visible window, reprogram your card, and validate the pages > for the now visible window. Returning from the page fault handler > will continue the application. > This is exaclty what I wanted to do. In my further tests I saw, that the operating systems already does almost the work. The mmap routine of my driver is called several times - not only during the execution of the mmap system call but also later when the memory is accessed. I noticed that for any page of the mmaped memory area it is called at the first access of the page. This means that the notification about the page fault seems to be done by calling the driver's mmap routine. Here I can reprogram the interface card. The validation of the now visible window is done automatically. The only problem that remains is, how to invalidate the pages for the old window so that a page fault will be generated again if this window is accessed later. Regards, Klaus Werner Krygier +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dr. Klaus Werner Krygier | Email: krygier@kph.uni-mainz.de | | Institut für Kernphysik | | | Johannes Gutenberg-Universität | Tel: +49-6131-39-2960 | | J.J.Becher-Weg 45 | +49-6131-39-5192 | | D-55099 Mainz | Fax: +49-6131-39-2964 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:35:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09063 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA09058 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA03133; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:32:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182232.PAA03133@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:32:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, dennis@etinc.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704182157.PAA24998@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 18, 97 03:57:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If you're talking about something else, then you are running a slightly > > different definition of "smoothly" or "integrated"; there is no inherent > > reason FreeBSD has to have any code, whatsoever, in common from version > > to version, except to deal with legacy issues. Even then, common code > > isn't really required -- only common interface points that don't change. > > That's total BS, and you know it. Almost *always* fixing bugs requires > API/interface changes. That's the nature of the beast, and you know it > as well as anyone, only you're trying to stir the pot again. It's possible to engineer good interfaces, just like you engineer a light socket. How frequently does the form factor on a light socket change? But lightbulb designs change every day, as do lamp designs. But the socket design remains the same because it is an overall good design. The problem is that it requires a high degree of up front planning (so far, unacceptably so for any free software project that I am aware of, with the possible exception of IMAP4, but then that's the exception to prove the rule, and Mark Crispin's a code stud, anyway). If FreeBSD had an NT-like HAL, where the hardware services were less dependent on the nature of the hardware suppling the services (look at the console and pcaudio code for a counter-example), the internal interfaces would be subject less to the vagries of change. There are other areas besides a HAL which inter-kernel-component interfaces would do a lot to shut detractors like Dennis up, by giving them what they want without hog-tying yourself in the process. For an example closer to home, the SVR4 interfaces for the DDI/DKI are highly stable (even if their VFS bottom end and module interfaces are utter crap). In that one area of the kernel, they have been able to supply a relatively stable platform for third party developers to insulate them from major changes between OS revisions. Even in the case of interface changes, when they do occur, they can be done in an evolutionary way, without being sacrificing the ability to revolutionarily change the black boxes which export the interfaces (or the black boces from vendors like Dennis, which plug into them). Streams is another example, distasteful as it is, that one can accomodate vendors with a stable interface without sacraficing the ability to make relatively unfettered progress. A streams driver moving from SVR4.2 to SVR4.2 ES/MP (SMP) does not even need recompilation, though it will be locked against thread reeentrancy at the top and bootom end queue accesses. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:40:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09250 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09243 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA25288; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:37:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:37:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704182237.QAA25288@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704182232.PAA03133@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199704182157.PAA24998@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199704182232.PAA03133@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's possible to engineer good interfaces, just like you engineer a > light socket. If you have something as simple as a light-socket, and as well understand as all the necessary requirements that a light socket might be used for. But, do you notice that are *millions* of different types of 'lamps' that fit into millions of different kinds of sockets, because 'one socket fits all' doesn't work. Someon had to break backwards compatability to put light-bulbs in my car, because the 100 Watt bulb I use on my front porch isn't appropriate for dash lights. For every silly example you come up with, I can come up with *hundreds* of counter-examples that are equally valid. Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:45:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09418 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09413 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA00931; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704182244.PAA00931@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), dennis@etinc.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:17:17 PDT." <199704182117.OAA02823@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:44:22 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Should we rename -hackers to something else because obviously people are still not getting it. Now, Terry , I know that you are smart so try to redirect to -chat. Let me put it another way people who are genuinely interested in helping with technical matters with time are just simply going to ignore -hackers due to the extreme noise ratio in this mailing list. Thank you, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 15:52:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09859 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA09854 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA03213; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:51:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182251.PAA03213@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: CVS vendor branches To: eivind@nic.follonett.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:51:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704182158.XAA15898@nic.follonett.no> from "Eivind Eklund" at Apr 18, 97 11:58:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > a way of hacking some of the wanted > features is by treatingthe FreeBSD main development as a vendor > branch, and using cvs import to maintain the parts you don't change. This works, but then I have my history at the cost of losing that of FreeBSD. It also leaves the issue of integrating my history blowing in the wind... when/if an integration takes place, the only thing imported will be my tip, right? So if I do something to accommodat a VM bug (say), and it's later fixed, and I want to branch back there for maintenance, now you must resolve conflicting tips, right? > If you have a good idea for how it would be possible to handle this > situation (without thinking of what CVS can handle today), we can of > course contact the cvs-info mailing-list and see if somebody there > might benefit from similar features and can be convinced to write > them :) It would require the ability to "unbranch", and then handle features on a feature-branch-by-feature-branch basis (merged feture branches would "go away" when the head got past the branch point). If you could combine this with history integration, and include a tag prefix (for instance, it might be "feature_foo" in my tree, but Bruce might have "feature_foo" in his tree, so to import the tree from the branch point to the integration point would require importing "terry_feature_foo" and "bruce_feature_foo" seperately, to keep the histories intact). Maybe they could incorporate a "tree vendor" tag, and by default it would be "FreeBSD" for FreeBSD and "terry" for changes I made on my machine? Then I could export a "CVSup" (probably a CTM, actually) with just the "terry" pieces, and everyone could coexist. After integration, the "terry.feature_foo" tag is replaced by the "FreeBSD.terry_feature_foo" tag, and my local version of the changes are removed from my tree and replaced with the new ones (basically, the integrated feature changes "tree vendor" tag on integration of the code -- it's renamed). You could probably synchronize as many concurrent CVS trees as you like, as long as you had export tools and basically the same insertion mechanism as "CVSup" and a way to recognize an integration event to trigger a rename... something like: cvs vendor -old terry -t feature_foo -new FreeBSD ? Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 16:02:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10357 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p24.tfs.net [206.154.183.216]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA10349 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA19144; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:59 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704182300.SAA19144@argus> Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:59 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704181705.KAA02274@phaeton.artisoft.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Apr 18, 97 10:05:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > > Same goes for Kansas and Missouri, as well as UT [Arlington, and > > Dallas]... > > UT as in Utah? > > The Hastings bookstores in Utah carry the FreeBSD CDROM's. Not as many > as Linux, but then there aren't as many FreeBSD's. > > I have yet to see FreeBSD in any store here in AZ. terry, read what you quoted... > > Same goes for Kansas and Missouri, as well as UT [Arlington, and > > Dallas]... University of Texas jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 16:03:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10415 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA10404 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA03282; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:01:22 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182301.QAA03282@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Accomodating Terry To: neswold@FNAL.GOV Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:01:22 -0700 (MST) Cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Richard Neswold" at Apr 18, 97 04:50:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > CVS updates will still keep me current. I get revision control of my changes > while I develop. The main repository only gets my "final" source base. > > Am I missing something in this scenario? | % cvs log foo.c | RCS file: /b/cvstree/ncvs/src/sys/kern/foo.c,v | Working file: foo.c | head: 1.8 | branch: | locks: strict | access list: | symbolic names: | RELENG_2_2_1_RELEASE: 1.6 | RELENG_2_2_0_RELEASE: 1.6 | RELENG_2_2: 1.6.0.2 | phk: 1.1.1.1 | ORIG: 1.1.1 | comment leader: " * " | keyword substitution: kv | total revisions: 9; selected revisions: 9 | description: | ---------------------------- | revision 1.8 | date: 1997/02/22 09:39:14; author: terry; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 | Added much slower code to work around bug in block I/O subsystem; | this will need to be backed out to the previous revision when the | block I/O subsystem has been corrected. | ---------------------------- | ... Oops. You don't have a previous revision, do you? You only have your 'tip'. And your 'tip' is not the correct "final" source base. I'm worried about getting all of this baseline code in and then finding out 3 months down the road that one of the baseline module changes I made was the wrong one, but having no way to back it out or find out what the previous code should have looked like without rewriting from scratch. Also, if you are trying to follow a set of changes, having them appear full-blown in the source tree won't really help your understanding. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 16:12:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11163 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA11147; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id QAA18978; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crab.whistle.com(207.76.205.112) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma018976; Fri Apr 18 16:11:43 1997 Received: (from ambrisko@localhost) by crab.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA27968; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:13:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Ambrisko Message-Id: <199704182313.QAA27968@crab.whistle.com> Subject: Re: Video Card Q In-Reply-To: <19970418200807.65461@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> from Stefan Esser at "Apr 18, 97 08:08:07 pm" To: se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL29 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stefan Esser writes: | On Apr 18, Wilson MacGyver wrote: | > I too highly recommand the Matrox Millenium. I've seen the 4MB | > version for $250. It's upgradable to 8MB. Blazing fast... | > Xfree86 has driver for it as of 3.1.2, but Xi's driver for it | > is great! | | Is XFree really an option for the Millenium, or is a S3 | or Mach64 based card a better choice for my new system ? My 4M Millenium runs solid at 1280x1024x24 with 3.1.2. The only problem I had was the card conflicting with COM2 until I moved COM2 to another address. I switched to it since Adobe Illustrator had trouble with the Diamond drivers at 1280x1024. Doug A. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 16:14:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11305 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p24.tfs.net [206.154.183.216]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA11296 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA19182; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:13:52 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704182313.SAA19182@argus> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:13:52 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418121536.00b52b60@etinc.com> from "dennis" at Apr 18, 97 12:15:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. > Why does a "free" OS have secrets? And this is not about fixing bugs, > believe me I understand about bugs, its about having to reengineer > freebsd based systems every couple of months..... ahem.. there is competition though, and secrecy of sorts is good in that case... > I'm just getting tired of getting hit in the nuts for not supporting > -current....the fact that the release is out of date a week after its > out is a very bad thing and really needs to change... -current is for testers, not production environments... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 16:19:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11779 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.visigenic.com (odin.visigenic.com [204.179.98.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA11774 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VSI48 (vsi48.visigenic.com [206.64.15.185]) by odin.visigenic.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA20314 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:19:43 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970418161816.009e3e40@visigenic.com> X-Sender: toneil@visigenic.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:18:17 -0700 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Tim Oneil" Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 03:50 PM 4/18/97 -0600, you wrote: >Umm, have you *ever* used Win95 or NT? We *regularly* (easily every 3 >months) have to re-install every few months (sometimes less than 3). At >my wife's work, they re-install everything on a regular basis as well, >and almost every company I know that uses any M$ OS recommends >re-installing the OS at *least* once/year due to application upgrades. Ummm, yes. I can't say we never re-install, but certainly not with that frequency. Why in the world do you feel it necessary to re-install every 3 months? I'm sorry, but that's absurd. Microsoft doesn't even release patches for their crap every 3 months. I have worked for three companies in silicon valley in the last ten years and none of them have ever made such a recommendation to me. If they did I would laugh in their faces and recommend they take their recommendation elsewhere and let me get some work done. >Re-installs are pretty common in the user world. I disagree. I used NT 3.5.1 for a year, the only thing I did to it was apply a patch when they became available, and then upgrade (so to speak) to NT 4.0 when it came out. I would really like to know what symptoms I should look for coming from my workstation that let me know when its time for a re-install. Do you mind? From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 16:23:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12176 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA12169 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA03341; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:21:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199704182321.QAA03341@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:21:32 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@mt.sri.com, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704182237.QAA25288@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Apr 18, 97 04:37:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If you have something as simple as a light-socket, and as well > understand as all the necessary requirements that a light socket might > be used for. But, do you notice that are *millions* of different types > of 'lamps' that fit into millions of different kinds of sockets, because > 'one socket fits all' doesn't work. How many of these are in your home? I chose light-sockets because they *weren't* standard to start with; they evolved. You can make counter points based on evolution (the car example you cite is still in the process of evolving), but they are hard to support because if you want a tennis partner and you start with a lemur, you're going to be waiting a hell of a long time for it to evolve. > Someon had to break backwards compatability to put light-bulbs in my > car, because the 100 Watt bulb I use on my front porch isn't appropriate > for dash lights. Both the bulb and the socket changed on that one. The bulb didn't change *because* the socket changed (or vice versa). There was an agreement between the manufacturing engineers of the bulbs and those of the sockets. Now sockets are relatively stable between model years within a given make of vehicle, and we're back to being standard between minor revisions. How much has the dome light socket form factor changed in the Honda Civic since it was originally implemented over a decade ago? The bulb has been revised many times, and the manufacture of the socket, but the original agreement remains intact. > For every silly example you come up with, I can come up with *hundreds* > of counter-examples that are equally valid. Or silly, as the case may be. The validity of the example as a counter does not devalue the idea of interchangability of parts, or of the up front agreement between the people who make the bulbs and those who make the sockets. Between FreeBSD and vendors like Dennis. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 16:38:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13712 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13702; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01538; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704182338.QAA01538@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Doug Ambrisko cc: se@freebsd.org (Stefan Esser), hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Card Q In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:13:06 PDT." <199704182313.QAA27968@crab.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:38:40 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I still swear by my old S3 968 with 4MB and by the way the card is faster than the Matrox Millenium when is operated at depths of 24 or 16 which is what are normally use over here. Not sure however I think that XFree86 does not fully support most of the accelerated features on the Matrox Millenium. Amancio >From The Desk Of Doug Ambrisko : > Stefan Esser writes: > | On Apr 18, Wilson MacGyver wrote: > | > I too highly recommand the Matrox Millenium. I've seen the 4MB > | > version for $250. It's upgradable to 8MB. Blazing fast... > | > Xfree86 has driver for it as of 3.1.2, but Xi's driver for it > | > is great! > | > | Is XFree really an option for the Millenium, or is a S3 > | or Mach64 based card a better choice for my new system ? > > My 4M Millenium runs solid at 1280x1024x24 with 3.1.2. The only problem I > had was the card conflicting with COM2 until I moved COM2 to another address. > I switched to it since Adobe Illustrator had trouble with the Diamond drivers > at 1280x1024. > > Doug A. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 16:43:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13880 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13875 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id SAA02032; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:41:34 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704182341.SAA02032@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704182232.PAA03133@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 18, 97 03:32:43 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:41:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org, dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > If you're talking about something else, then you are running a slightly > > > different definition of "smoothly" or "integrated"; there is no inherent > > > reason FreeBSD has to have any code, whatsoever, in common from version > > > to version, except to deal with legacy issues. Even then, common code > > > isn't really required -- only common interface points that don't change. > > > > That's total BS, and you know it. Almost *always* fixing bugs requires > > API/interface changes. That's the nature of the beast, and you know it > > as well as anyone, only you're trying to stir the pot again. > > If FreeBSD had an NT-like HAL, where the hardware services were less > dependent on the nature of the hardware suppling the services (look > at the console and pcaudio code for a counter-example), the internal > interfaces would be subject less to the vagries of change. There > are other areas besides a HAL which inter-kernel-component interfaces > would do a lot to shut detractors like Dennis up, by giving them > what they want without hog-tying yourself in the process. > Well -- I don't want an OS like NT. Microsoft has already done that, and it shows *interesting* performance charactistics. Of course, I admit that it would be very nice if we could maintain more consistant interfaces, but frankly, I have used the latest version of Unixware MP code also, and I don't like that either... It just doesn't work nicely. John From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 16:45:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14098 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA14084 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usr605.zko.dec.com by mail1.digital.com (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA32339; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:36:37 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970418193546.008f8d24@www.3am-software.com> X-Sender: matt@www.3am-software.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:35:46 -0400 To: Klaus Werner Krygier , adrian@virginia.edu From: Matt Thomas Subject: Re: DEC 21140-Ax problems resolved? Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I am using a DEC EtherWORKS adapter DE520-AA with a DEC 21140-AB chip and >have the same problem. The behaviour is exactly identical as you described. There is no DE520-AA. do you mean DE500-XA? >> I have tried using the NetBSD driver as well as the -currrent >> one. In both cases the kernel won't compile. In the -current case, I >> think I may have missed a crucial file. The NetBSD may just be to far >> out of synch. > >I have tried to boot NetBSD directly and had the same problems too. What version of NetBSD? The driver only went recently. look at http://www.3am-software.com/ifmedia.html -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 17:00:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA14881 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA14865 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01802; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704182359.QAA01802@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:21:32 PDT." <199704182321.QAA03341@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:59:08 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If this continues , then I suggest that we pass a vote and kick people out. Amancio >From The Desk Of Terry Lambert : > > If you have something as simple as a light-socket, and as well > > understand as all the necessary requirements that a light socket might > > be used for. But, do you notice that are *millions* of different types > > of 'lamps' that fit into millions of different kinds of sockets, because > > 'one socket fits all' doesn't work. > > How many of these are in your home? > > I chose light-sockets because they *weren't* standard to start with; > they evolved. You can make counter points based on evolution (the > car example you cite is still in the process of evolving), but they > are hard to support because if you want a tennis partner and you > start with a lemur, you're going to be waiting a hell of a long time > for it to evolve. > > > > Someon had to break backwards compatability to put light-bulbs in my > > car, because the 100 Watt bulb I use on my front porch isn't appropriate > > for dash lights. > > Both the bulb and the socket changed on that one. The bulb didn't > change *because* the socket changed (or vice versa). There was an > agreement between the manufacturing engineers of the bulbs and those > of the sockets. Now sockets are relatively stable between model > years within a given make of vehicle, and we're back to being standard > between minor revisions. How much has the dome light socket form > factor changed in the Honda Civic since it was originally implemented > over a decade ago? The bulb has been revised many times, and the > manufacture of the socket, but the original agreement remains intact. > > > > For every silly example you come up with, I can come up with *hundreds* > > of counter-examples that are equally valid. > > Or silly, as the case may be. The validity of the example as a counter > does not devalue the idea of interchangability of parts, or of the up > front agreement between the people who make the bulbs and those who make > the sockets. Between FreeBSD and vendors like Dennis. > > > Regards, > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 17:03:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15023 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-7.mail.demon.net (relay-7.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA15018 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from longacre.demon.co.uk ([158.152.156.24]) by relay-5.mail.demon.net id aa0507187; 19 Apr 97 0:25 BST From: Michael Searle Message-ID: To: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Card Q References: <199704172336.QAA15074@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:03:07 BST X-Mailer: Offlite 0.09 / Termite Internet for Acorn RISC OS Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk owner-hackers-digest@freefall.freebsd.org wrote: > Hey folks, > I'm trying to put together a new zoomy P6-based system, and I want a > good video card...and I'm at a loss for what's better than what. Since > I want 24-bit color I'll probably be running the XiG server, so absolute > solid XFree86 drivers aren't necessarily of great importance... > Any advice on what a good card would be? Right now I'm trying to decide > between the #9FX 772 and the #9FX 771 cards. The obvious difference > seems to be one supports "interlaced" and the other supports "sync on > green". One uses the S3 Virge/VX chip and the other...S3 Vision968. > Any good advice out there? I don't know about the #9FX cards, but I've been told (by Xi) that the fastest card using the Xi server is the Matrox Millenium. I think the Matrox Millenium PowerDoc also works with the same server, although you'd better check first with Xi (as it's just a Millenium with a faster DAC.) I'm currently using a S3 Vision968/2M VRAM card (Miro Crystal) and it's fairly fast, but nowhere near as fast as a Millenium, comparing my Xstone numbers to Xi's advertised ones. -- Michael Searle - csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 17:04:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15113 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15108 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id TAA02102; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:04:11 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704190004.TAA02102@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418161816.009e3e40@visigenic.com> from Tim Oneil at "Apr 18, 97 04:18:17 pm" To: toneil@visigenic.com (Tim Oneil) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:04:11 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >Re-installs are pretty common in the user world. > > I disagree. I used NT 3.5.1 for a year, the only thing I did to it > was apply a patch when they became available, and then upgrade (so to > speak) to NT 4.0 when it came out. I would really like to know > what symptoms I should look for coming from my workstation that > let me know when its time for a re-install. Do you mind? > One of the problems is the cr*p that builds up when you are designing/debugging/hacking OCX's... Also, the version management is really nasty -- note the problem with VB5 being incompatible with new OCX's. You can quickly/easily mess up an NT config, with little recourse other than reinstall, or forage around a bunch of dll's or ocx's to find the one that is the wrong version. That is very tricky on NT. I have seen people "just give up." John From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 17:12:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15454 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA15446 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10047; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd010044; Sat Apr 19 00:03:35 1997 Message-ID: <33580BC8.2781E494@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:03:20 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: spork CC: Michael Smith , Adrian Chadd , imp@village.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WhistleJets (was Re: Another Linux Religious war) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk spork wrote: > > I spoke to a salesperson there as I immediately saw that it did many > things that we need done for our T1 and "smart building" customers, but > I've been unsuccessful in getting any info about whether it will (I know > it technically *can*) do ether-ether routing in areas where we deliver via > ethernet. > > They also mentioned a "T1" model was in Beta... > > The problem is, I can't get them to sell us one. > > Anyone have a good sales contact there? me? what do you want? :) call me at 1-888-4-whistle (toll free ask for julian Elischer. (me) ou are probably frightenningthe sales people by asking for things that are RSN, and they are embarrassed to have to say that :) > > Charles > the model with 2 ethernet interfaces is still in alpha (not beta) it's the same as the one with the T1 interface. > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 17:14:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15559 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp [131.113.32.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA15551 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hosokawa@localhost) by frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.4Wbeta3) id JAA25051; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:14:40 +0900 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:14:40 +0900 Message-Id: <199704190014.JAA25051@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> To: wadlow@pilot.net Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp Subject: Re: Interesting problem In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:20:33 -0700 (PDT)". From: hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (HOSOKAWA Tatsumi) X-Mailer: mnews [version 1.20] 1996-12/08(Sun) Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article wadlow@pilot.net writes: >> It does, but booting and disabling those devices produces no change in the >> behavior. It still pings with great delay, works for a minute or two and >> then stops. --Tom PAO boot.flp for 2.2.1 can change the IRQ alloication configuration for PC-cards from sysinstall menu (10 -> 11, 5 -> 11, 11 only). Did you tried all combinations of IRQs? -- HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi Network Technology Center, Keio University, Tokyo, Japan hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (Tokoro Lab.) hosokawa@jp.FreeBSD.org (Japan FreeBSD UG) From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 17:30:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA16268 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de (krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de [134.93.132.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16261 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (krygier@localhost) by krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA29821; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:30:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: krygierpc.kph.uni-mainz.de: krygier owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:30:13 +0200 (CEST) From: Klaus Werner Krygier To: Matt Thomas cc: FreeBSD Hackers List Subject: Re: DEC 21140-Ax problems resolved? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418193546.008f8d24@www.3am-software.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Matt Thomas wrote: > > >I am using a DEC EtherWORKS adapter DE520-AA with a DEC 21140-AB chip and > >have the same problem. The behaviour is exactly identical as you described. > > There is no DE520-AA. do you mean DE500-XA? No. The DE520-AA is no standard PCI card but a PCM adapter. We use also DE500-XA interfaces. They work fine. > > >> I have tried using the NetBSD driver as well as the -currrent > >> one. In both cases the kernel won't compile. In the -current case, I > >> think I may have missed a crucial file. The NetBSD may just be to far > >> out of synch. > > > >I have tried to boot NetBSD directly and had the same problems too. > > What version of NetBSD? The driver only went recently. > NetBSD 1.2 > look at http://www.3am-software.com/ifmedia.html > -- Thank you for this hint. I have just spent some hours to generate a new FreeBSD kernel with the if_de/ifmedia code of NetBSD-current without success. Your information will help me to save a lot of additional time. Regards, Klaus Werner Krygier +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dr. Klaus Werner Krygier | Email: krygier@kph.uni-mainz.de | | Institut für Kernphysik | | | Johannes Gutenberg-Universität | Tel: +49-6131-39-2960 | | J.J.Becher-Weg 45 | +49-6131-39-5192 | | D-55099 Mainz | Fax: +49-6131-39-2964 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 17:47:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17169 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oak-1.pilot.net (mail-oak-1.pilot.net [198.232.147.16]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA17163 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u2.pilot.net (unknown-17-117.pilot.net [204.48.17.117]) by mail-oak-1.pilot.net with ESMTP id RAA06682; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dc3.pilot.net (dc3.pilot.net [204.48.17.11]) by u2.pilot.net (8.8.5/) with ESMTP id RAA16674; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (wadlow@localhost) by dc3.pilot.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA01054; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:47:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: dc3.pilot.net: wadlow owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:47:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Wadlow To: HOSOKAWA Tatsumi cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting problem In-Reply-To: <199704190014.JAA25051@frig.mt.cs.keio.ac.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yup, going to 11 only seems to have done the trick. Ping times down to less than a millisecond, and so far it is staying on-line. Thanks for your help! --Tom On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, HOSOKAWA Tatsumi wrote: > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:14:40 +0900 > From: HOSOKAWA Tatsumi > To: wadlow@pilot.net > Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp > Subject: Re: Interesting problem > > In article > wadlow@pilot.net writes: > > >> It does, but booting and disabling those devices produces no change in the > >> behavior. It still pings with great delay, works for a minute or two and > >> then stops. --Tom > > PAO boot.flp for 2.2.1 can change the IRQ alloication configuration > for PC-cards from sysinstall menu (10 -> 11, 5 -> 11, 11 only). > > Did you tried all combinations of IRQs? > > -- > HOSOKAWA, Tatsumi > Network Technology Center, Keio University, Tokyo, Japan > hosokawa@ntc.keio.ac.jp > hosokawa@mt.cs.keio.ac.jp (Tokoro Lab.) > hosokawa@jp.FreeBSD.org (Japan FreeBSD UG) > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 18:00:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17904 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17895 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA05204; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:59:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Terry Lambert , nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), dennis@etinc.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:59:08 PDT." <199704182359.QAA01802@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:59:17 -0700 Message-ID: <5201.861411557@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If this continues , then I suggest that we pass a vote and kick people out. Which would only incite an additional 4 billion more mails about how terrible/wonderful an action it was and All The Terrible Precedents Raised Therefrom and it would all very be highly emotional, you can bet on that. No. Let's not do that. That would be criminally stupid. :-) If you're overloaded with email from any of the freebsd lists then do what history has shown time and again to be the only reasonable action - unsubscribe for awhile until the dust dies down and even the most verbose blow-hards come to the slow conclusion that maybe they Really Should Just Shut Up about whatever topic the undying thread concerns, it having gotten so long as to exceed even their thresholds for human sillyness. This process generally takes no more than 2-3 weeks in the very worst cases, it being only rarely necessary for MCI and Sprint to intervene with messages to admin@freebsd.org saying "For pity's sake, STOP! Do you realize that you're single-handedly responsible for 75% of the congestion at 3 principle MAEs??!" In other words, relax. It will all blow over, just like the other 28,947 went-on-so-long-they-should-have-been-shot threads I've seen in these mailing lists over the last 3 years. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 18:06:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18095 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18090 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA02521; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704190106.SAA02521@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:59:17 PDT." <5201.861411557@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:06:45 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Okay, I will give a list a day or two to settle down if doesn't then I am out of here at least for a little while. Is not the volume which bothers me rather the apparent sabotage on the list which really gets to me and I think that I have been more than patient . Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 18:10:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18228 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18221 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem20.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.50]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16860; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:11:34 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33583695.24EF@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:05:57 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dennis CC: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <3.0.32.19970418174048.00af4084@etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dennis wrote: > > > Bugs are a different banana...we're talking about major features... > > You decide between Window 95 and NT by understanding what the product can > do and what is expected to be available in the foreseeable future. If you > had to > reinstall the thing every 3 months there'd be a lot of people using > something else > I just got this "brilliant" idea from a commercial site I just visited ! _______________ FreeBSD on a Disk (coming soon!) Just Plug and Play! ET takes the hassle out of building a router or Unix-like workstation. No more nasty, time-consuming installs from a CD-ROM. No more concerns about incompatible hardware. _______________ Get the idea ?? No more current, no more release ! You just grab the hard disk you need with the latest features. Jordan, can we ship hard disks? Why not even computers, I have to keep it up to date anyway :). Pedro. > db From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 18:15:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18432 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18425 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem20.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.50]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16868; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:18:02 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33583819.44D1@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:12:25 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: dennis , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <3794.861397783@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Damn, Dennis has guessed our secret. > ... > Trust Dennis to see The Truth(tm) - I should have known better than to > let anything slip to him! Jordan, get me his address and a foto. I am half Italian, half Colombian...I can "fix" this. Pedro :). > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 18:18:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18566 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18549 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id UAA02239; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:16:28 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704190116.UAA02239@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: from Rudy Gireyev at "Apr 18, 97 06:17:17 pm" To: RGireyev@bellind.com (Rudy Gireyev) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:16:14 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > How does one swallow his own tongue??? :-) > I don't do it often enough :-). > > Time for me to crawl back into the woodwork. > Always feel free to come out of "the woodwork." John From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 18:58:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20117 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA20112 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA28991; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:27:39 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199704190157.LAA28991@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418121536.00b52b60@etinc.com> from dennis at "Apr 18, 97 12:15:38 pm" To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:27:39 +0930 (CST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dennis stands accused of saying: > > Freebsd is *not* a commercial company and there is no benefit to secrecy. > Why does a "free" OS have secrets? And this is not about fixing bugs, > believe me I understand about bugs, its about having to reengineer > freebsd based systems every couple of months..... Dennis, you really shouldn't mix hallucinogenics and the X-Files; it makes dealing with reality _very_ difficult. - There are no secrets. If there was something that you felt you needed to know, the people that know it are accesible and publically named, and the source is there for you to examine. - What makes you think that any sort of "reengineering" is required? The fact that development continues doesn't suddenly obsolete older code. It doesn't sort of shrivel up or anything... > I'm just getting tired of getting hit in the nuts for not supporting > -current....the fact that the release is out of date a week after its > out is a very bad thing and really needs to change... What crap is this? Most operating systems are out of date when they're frozen six months before public release; you're bitching about what is a _fact_of_life_. If your gripe is that customers are coming to you complaining that you're not supporting -current, sit them down and explain to them in short words that FreeBSD is _not_ Linux; it is not _necessary_ to be running the highest-numbered version of _anything_, and if they have half a brain they will be following a release-derived -stable thread, which is maintained with exactly your situation in mind; bugfixes, stability, maintenance in general. > Dennis -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 19:32:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA21136 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21131 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id TAA06434; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:32:45 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:32:45 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199704190232.TAA06434@kithrup.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.hackers In-Reply-To: <199704190157.LAA28991.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> References: <3.0.32.19970418121536.00b52b60@etinc.com> from dennis at "Apr 18, 97 12:15:38 pm" Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199704190157.LAA28991.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> you write: >If your gripe is that customers are coming to you complaining that >you're not supporting -current, sit them down and explain to them in >short words that FreeBSD is _not_ Linux Alternatively, work with the developers to come up with a device driver interface (DDI). It won't be easy, but if you come up with one, and can get the developers to adhere to it for the lifetime of a major release (e.g., 1.x, 2.x, 3.x), then that would probably suit you and your customers just fine. In the meanwhile, I am reminded about customers (in a previous life) who wanted the lastest ANSI C features in a compiler that had been out for six months. Interestingly enough, free software tends to track moving targets more easily; perhaps the solution is to release the source code for your device drivers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 19:33:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA21174 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [206.222.77.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21167 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA06101; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970418222756.50658@vinyl.quickweb.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:27:56 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Stephen Roome Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... References: <4626.861257826@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: ; from Stephen Roome on Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 06:15:45PM +0100 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 06:15:45PM +0100, Stephen Roome wrote: > On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > what do they do with them? i have yet to see a store carrying > > > FreeBSD... > > > > I've also seen copies at Cody's bookstore in Berkeley, a popular > > hangout for CS types. More linux stuff, naturally, but they at least > > had FreeBSD in the retail box in their OS section. I believe you can > > also find them at Computer Literacy, though I haven't checked recently. > > More Linux in Berekely, isn't that scary ? It's quite scary.. here at the U of Guelph in Canada, Linux is taking over as well. Unfortunate, especially considering that we have traditionally been a BSD oriented school. The sysadmin wrote NFS/NQNFS for BSD for crying out loud... but he was forced to install Linux. Luckily, thanks to Jordan and Walnut Creek, a shipment of 10 2.2.1R FreeBSD cds is headed this way, and I'm going to personally pick up my broad-sword and campaign for FreeBSD on campus :-) "Run FreeBSD, or I'l behead you". That'll be my motto. But seriously, the CS departments are where FreeBSD needs to aim its marketing arrows at - learn from the Tobacco companies: get 'em hooked while they're young and they'll be yours for eternity. I encourage everyone to pick up their broadswords and start swinging; active promotion is the only way to get freebsd more attention! -Mark -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Mayo mark@quickweb.com RingZero Comp. http://vinyl.quickweb.com/mark finger mark@quickweb.com for my PGP key and GCS code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be thought incapable. -Sir Peter Imbert From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 19:42:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA21626 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21619 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA09046; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:41:45 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Mayo cc: Stephen Roome , jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Apr 1997 22:27:56 EDT." <19970418222756.50658@vinyl.quickweb.com> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:41:45 -0700 Message-ID: <9044.861417705@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But seriously, the CS departments are where FreeBSD needs to aim its > marketing arrows at - learn from the Tobacco companies: get 'em hooked > while they're young and they'll be yours for eternity. Absolutely. This isn't just endemic to Tobacco companies either; DEC did the same thing in universities across the nation and spawned a whole generation of VAX programmers in the process. :-) > I encourage everyone to pick up their broadswords and start swinging; active > promotion is the only way to get freebsd more attention! Yes! As I've also said already, if you're in just such an educational institution, SEND ME EMAIL! We send out literally hundreds of CDs for this at every major release and have no problem with sending out hundreds more! Also, this may be a little-known fact, but Walnut Creek CDROM also encourages developing countries to freely duplicate the FreeBSD CDs locally. When Bob Bruce (our president) was recently in China, he even tried to convince some local pirates that FreeBSD was _really valuable_ and boy, gosh, wouldn't Walnut Creek CDROM be in trouble if it was pirated all over China! He says they didn't bite, but he at least gave the reverse-psychology approach his best shot. :-) Needless to say, if you're somewhere that has a hard time getting FreeBSD CDs through customs, *please* - consider making and selling your own copies to your local market! Walnut Creek CDROM wants FreeBSD to spread far and wide, no matter what it may take to bring that about (well, OK, we draw the line at outright imperialism and signing users up at gunpoint :-). Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 20:47:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA23741 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper5a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA23736 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA09603 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:47:28 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3515.861395705@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Let's take the subject literally and look at the Price ($$$) of FreeBSD from the POV of an industry that FreeBSD is well suited to, the small to medium ISP. We've reached the point that we need to start using addresses from our second class C. Adding an alias from the second class C to the NIC card in our BSDi 2.0.1 boxes caused them to loose the MAC address of the router. We man-ed, route-ed, and arp-ed 'till our fingers were numb, no success. Meanwhile my FreeBSD workstation was more than happy to sit on both Cs. Is that problem fixed in BSDi 3.0? ???? Assuming it is, what would it cost? 5 16 user licenses, 1 16 user with source $8448.20, tax included. For that price upgrades for 60 days, support for 60 days. What'd FreeBSD cost us? A bit of bandwidth for a little while. Upgrades? Same price, and unlimited. Support? Right here. We now have one BSDi box. Within the next few weeks I won't be able to say that. :) How could anyone with any exposure to the business world expect anything but a demand for secrecy during early negotiations. Whatever comes out of any discussions with commercial entities (and the green Martians) can only help the FreeBSD community. As long as the powers that be at FreeBSD.org keep producing one of the best operating systems available, at any price, why worry about a few closed discussions with the "private sector". Hell, if they want to get together at Stonehenge once a month and chant and howl at the full moon naked let 'em. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 21:01:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA24147 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lambert.org (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA24013 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 20:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704190358.UAA24013@freefall.freebsd.org> From: "Terry Lambert" Subject: test after unrecoverable error To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Unrecoverable delivery error with hackers@freebsd.org. Dunno why. Seeing if it's gone... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 21:03:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA24253 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bellind.com ([206.101.34.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24244 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by firewall.bellind.com via suspension id <17090-1>; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:06:07 -0700 Received: by firewall.bellind.com via suspension id <17032-1>; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:01:08 -0700 Received: from cdcexchange.bellind.com ([170.1.130.2]) by firewall.bellind.com with SMTP id <17140-2>; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:14:37 -0700 Received: by cdcexchange.bellind.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.837.3) id <01BC4C24.C0CC7650@cdcexchange.bellind.com>; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:17:19 -0700 Message-ID: From: Rudy Gireyev To: "'John S. Dyson'" Cc: "'hackers@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 18:17:17 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.837.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk With all due respect John, what you say is true, however it does not invalidate what Tony said about Nate. Basically Nate is talking about something he has no idea about (something he flames Terry for). He, Nate, also does not seem to understand that posting to this thread, thereby continuing this argument, is nearing absurd and suicide will be attempted soon by this poster if this continues. How does one swallow his own tongue??? :-) Time for me to crawl back into the woodwork. >---------- >From: John S. Dyson[SMTP:toor@dyson.iquest.net] >Sent: Friday, April 18, 1997 5:04 PM >To: toneil@visigenic.com >Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) > >> >> >Re-installs are pretty common in the user world. >> >> I disagree. I used NT 3.5.1 for a year, the only thing I did to it >> was apply a patch when they became available, and then upgrade (so to >> speak) to NT 4.0 when it came out. I would really like to know >> what symptoms I should look for coming from my workstation that >> let me know when its time for a re-install. Do you mind? >> >One of the problems is the cr*p that builds up when you are >designing/debugging/hacking OCX's... Also, the version management >is really nasty -- note the problem with VB5 being incompatible >with new OCX's. You can quickly/easily mess up an NT config, with >little recourse other than reinstall, or forage around a bunch >of dll's or ocx's to find the one that is the wrong version. That >is very tricky on NT. I have seen people "just give up." > >John > > From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 21:19:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA24629 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24621 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem00.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.30]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA17006; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:20:02 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <335862BA.38DB@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:14:24 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: dennis@etinc.com, nate@mt.sri.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) References: <199704190148.SAA03705@phaeton.artisoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert wrote: > > I just mentioned this to Jordan in a "marketing" discussion on the > -chat list. Except they were Zip, Syquest and JAZ disks... > Let's discuss this on the -chat list then, neighbors (and I) have to sleep :). By now there may also be a "Fixing Dennis" thread.... Pedro. > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 21:29:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA25006 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper5a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24991 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA09784; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:28:58 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704182150.PAA24975@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > You decide between Window 95 and NT by understanding what the product can > > do and what is expected to be available in the foreseeable future. If you > > had to > > reinstall the thing every 3 months there'd be a lot of people using > > something else > > Umm, have you *ever* used Win95 or NT? Not if he's lucky. ;-) > We *regularly* (easily every 3 months) have to re-install every few > months (sometimes less than 3). One of our most cluefull customers had to format and re-install to convince 95 he had changed modems. Re-install without a format wouldn't do it. NoThanks 4.0's stock ATI ??? video drivers can't change desktop font size without a re-boot. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 21:38:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA25490 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (ppp010-sm2.sirius.com [205.134.231.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA25485 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA15124; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:38:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199704190438.VAA15124@superior.mooseriver.com> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: from jack at "Apr 18, 97 11:47:28 pm" To: jack@diamond.xtalwind.net (jack) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 21:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jgrosch@sirius.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Let's take the subject literally and look at the Price ($$$) of FreeBSD >from the POV of an industry that FreeBSD is well suited to, the small to >medium ISP. We've reached the point that we need to start using addresses >from our second class C. Adding an alias from the second class C to the >NIC card in our BSDi 2.0.1 boxes caused them to loose the MAC address of >the router. We man-ed, route-ed, and arp-ed 'till our fingers were numb, >no success. Meanwhile my FreeBSD workstation was more than happy to sit >on both Cs. Is that problem fixed in BSDi 3.0? ???? Assuming it is, >what would it cost? 5 16 user licenses, 1 16 user with source $8448.20, >tax included. For that price upgrades for 60 days, support for 60 days. >What'd FreeBSD cost us? A bit of bandwidth for a little while. Upgrades? >Same price, and unlimited. Support? Right here. We now have one BSDi >box. Within the next few weeks I won't be able to say that. :) > Add to this the time (read billable hours) you and your co-works spent try to get BSDi to add an IP alias and the time you spent on the phone with BSDi support. [ DELETED ] >As long as the powers that be at FreeBSD.org keep producing one of the >best operating systems available, at any price, why worry about a few >closed discussions with the "private sector". Hell, if they want to get >together at Stonehenge once a month and chant and howl at the full moon >naked let 'em. Why don't I ever get invited to those kind of meetings ? I must be working for the wrong company. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.1 jgrosch@sirius.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 18 23:18:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA28361 for hackers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper5a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA28356 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA12435; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:18:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:18:10 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Amancio Hasty , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <5201.861411557@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > If this continues , then I suggest that we pass a vote and kick people out. > > If you're overloaded with email from any of the freebsd lists then do > what history has shown time and again to be the only reasonable action - > unsubscribe for awhile until the dust dies down and even the most > verbose blow-hards come to the slow conclusion that maybe they Really > Should Just Shut Up about whatever topic the undying thread concerns, > it having gotten so long as to exceed even their thresholds for human > sillyness. Procmail can be a very good friend. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 00:50:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00945 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00914 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 00:50:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.2) id RAA10560; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:49:39 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19970419174938.49083@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:49:38 +1000 From: David Dawes To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Video Card Q References: <19970418200807.65461@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> <199704182313.QAA27968@crab.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199704182313.QAA27968@crab.whistle.com>; from Doug Ambrisko on Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 04:13:06PM -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 04:13:06PM -0700, Doug Ambrisko wrote: >Stefan Esser writes: >| On Apr 18, Wilson MacGyver wrote: >| > I too highly recommand the Matrox Millenium. I've seen the 4MB >| > version for $250. It's upgradable to 8MB. Blazing fast... >| > Xfree86 has driver for it as of 3.1.2, but Xi's driver for it >| > is great! >| >| Is XFree really an option for the Millenium, or is a S3 >| or Mach64 based card a better choice for my new system ? > >My 4M Millenium runs solid at 1280x1024x24 with 3.1.2. The only problem I You must mean XFree86 3.2. 3.1.2 doesn't not have support for the Millennium. Also, the Millennium support in 3.2 is not accelerated. The 3.2A beta does include (very fast) accelerated support for the Millennium, but that is a binary-only release. XFree86 is planning a full release soon based on 3.2A, so at that point a version of XFree86 with good acceleration support for the Millennium will be available in source form. I can't make a commitment about the release date for this other than to say that it will be before the 3.2A binaries expire (15 June 1997). >had was the card conflicting with COM2 until I moved COM2 to another address. I've never seen a conflict with the standard COM2 address. A lot of video cards conflict with the standard COM4 I/O address range, but I'm not sure if the Millennium does. David From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 01:17:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA01895 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA01867 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.2) id SAA10612; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:16:15 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19970419181615.45445@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:16:15 +1000 From: David Dawes To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Card Q References: <199704182313.QAA27968@crab.whistle.com> <199704182338.QAA01538@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199704182338.QAA01538@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 04:38:40PM -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 04:38:40PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >Well, I still swear by my old S3 968 with 4MB and by the way the card >is faster than the Matrox Millenium when is operated at depths of 24 or 16 >which is what are normally use over here. > >Not sure however I think that XFree86 does not fully support most of >the accelerated features on the Matrox Millenium. That is true for the 3.2 release, but not for the 3.2A beta. The Millennium is the fastest card supported by 3.2A by a large margin. Just digging a few numbers out from www.goof.com's xbench archive shows that a Millennium at 32bpp (packed 24bpp is buggy and/or interacts poorly with some clients) comes in at between 366k-444k xstones on a Pentium 133, while a #9 Motion 771 (S3 968) at 8bpp comes in at 273k xstones on a Pentium 100. Unfortunately they don't have results for the two cards running with the same speed CPU (or better still, on exactly the same machine), but it does indicate that the Millennium at 32bpp beats the 968 at 8bpp in the overall xstone result. For reference the 8bpp Millennium results shown there for a Pentium 133 are between 733k and 940k xstones. Note, I just took these results from the "3.2 Betas" summary page at www.goof.com. Although they seem give a reasonable general indication of the relative performance that is consistent with my experience with both cards, they are only "benchmarks" and should be treated as such. David From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 01:38:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA02896 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA02891 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.8.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id IAA09614; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:37:52 GMT Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:37:51 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Terry Lambert cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Accomodating Terry In-Reply-To: <199704182053.NAA02753@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > If (A) or (B) could be accomodated with a seperate branch, a seperate > branch would be sufficient. I question the difficulty of "going > mainstream" with a part of the code in such a branch (it seems that > you would end up with unacceptable all/none choices), or of it being > able to "keep up" with mainstream developement: > > mainstream -------> branch > | | > | v > | branch > | + > | local changes > | > | > mainstream -------> branch <<< How can this happen > + + without a code slave? > changes local changes > + > changes > > If this is an imagined hurdle, it'd be nice to know. > Merging in changes can be a pain, but it's pretty obvious that this is how it's done around here. For example, Jeffrey Hsu quietly worked on Lite2 and people are now working in merging it into Current. FreeBSD accomodated his working style too, it seems he didn't want random people sending him mail so he quietly went away, worked on it, and came back with it and said go with it. If you had a CVS repository to work on complements of FreeBSD.ORG like SMP you could at least get a publicly available base of code that people could download and pound on. I don't think it matters that much that you get a little behind on the mainstream, you don't need to sync up everyday. FS code has been pretty stable until recently, but you can wait a little bit until it stabilizes again to take a CVS snapshot, branch off and go with it. Regarding the code slave issue, heck even our resident VM guru has worn the "code slave" hat. If it's beneath you to be a code slave then consider that if people like the results then there will be enough code slaves around to merge in the results. ;-) I recommend concentrating the per-fs vnode allocation and some interface cleanup. Forget about transitive closure and the NT HAL for some other time to maximize your chances of success. Regards, Mike Hancock From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 01:53:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA03295 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA03266 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA24612 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 19 Apr 1997 01:51:00 -0700 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA18125; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:50:19 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA11020; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:23:01 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <19970419102301.FO34910@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:23:01 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: krygier@kph.uni-mainz.de (Klaus Werner Krygier), toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Subject: Re: special memory device References: <19970416004851.LL04161@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Pgp-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Klaus Werner Krygier on Apr 19, 1997 00:21:04 +0200 Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Klaus Werner Krygier wrote: > This means that the notification about the page fault > seems to be done by calling the driver's mmap routine. Here I can > reprogram the interface card. The validation of the now visible window > is done automatically. The only problem that remains is, how to invalidate > the pages for the old window so that a page fault will be generated > again if this window is accessed later. Ask John. :) I think you gotta call some *unmap() function, but i'm not confident with the API, and John never got around to actually write something like a man page for the VM system (hint, hint :). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 02:15:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA04428 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.28]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA04420 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA21092; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19970419021513.62962@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:15:13 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: scheduling question... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-960801-SNAP i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk heh... in the quest to find idprio (I of course didn't know it at the time) I discovered a few things that I found interesting... I was just looking at i386/i386/swtch.s and it looks like we can save a couple clock cycles on processing the real time queue as the real time queue is checked twice, once at line 264, and then again on line 329... sure this isn't much and doesn't get run very often.. (once for each time it handles a real time process)... the fix is REALLY easy too.. :) of course I didn't look to see if the next few instructions will be >128 bytes ahead and cause the jmp to be a larger jmp.. also.. it looks like we have some replicated code that doesn't need to be replicated.. i.e. the dequeuing of the next process... I haven't used gas before but it seems that we could pass in an address to which queue we are manipulating.. and do a generic queue manitpulation and update.. the problem that I see right now is not having a free register in that section of code and that we will suffer from a extra register load (to get the memory location) which will be 2 cycles on a 386, or 1 on a 486... I'm not sure if this would improve performance or not... as the code is probably not cached, only advantage might be not using as many cache lines... also.. it looks like we have a dead jmp in there that does nothing... as it will NEVER be hit.. line 334... comments?? -- John-Mark Cu Networking Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 02:15:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA04532 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA04518 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09154; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:04:08 +0800 (WST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:04:07 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: Michael Smith cc: imp@village.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WhistleJets (was Re: Another Linux Religious war) In-Reply-To: <199704180303.MAA21085@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > a major ISP in Perth is marketing the "Phoenix" server which does > > basically the same as the WhistleJet, but with Linux instead. > > Heh, and we all know who they are, right? > *grin* Ahh, you're from adelaide.. NOW I know why you know. :) > I've been trying to talk Whistle into selling into the Australian > market; there are a lot of people in the 'right' places here who, > IMHO, would consider something like the WJ _exactly_ the right thing > to have. > Yes. Trouble is, lots of companies want to do it themselves. (I know mine does, along with a heap of other ISPs). > In most particular, Telstra have pulled some interesting stuff that > means that a business could have a full-time 'net connection for $500 > once-off and less then 20c/MB. For an org with a network of Mac/PC ^^^^^^^^^---- you're talking about their perm modem connection pricing? > system (common), something like the WJ would just become the "Internet > machine" in conjunction with this. I have been _itching_ to be able > to sell this to people; I haven't dared try to put together something > as complex single-handed though 8( > Yes it would be nice. :) Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 02:25:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA05246 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA05235 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA01411; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704190924.CAA01411@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: David Dawes cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Card Q In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:16:15 +1000." <19970419181615.45445@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:24:44 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Say David don't worry my info is dated so your observation is fair. Do you know if the Matrox Mystique is supported with reasonable performance? Just got two laying around and it will be nice if they are supported because of the work that is going on with the Bt848 driver. With video cards which have a linear frame buffer and a pixel order of rgb we have no problems doing PCI to PCI transfer however there are cards such as the Millenium which I don't have one whose byte order is BGR or pretty close to that. One good thing that I can say about the Mystique is that the character display is razor sharp compare to the S3 cards. Tnks, Amancio >From The Desk Of David Dawes : > On Fri, Apr 18, 1997 at 04:38:40PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >Well, I still swear by my old S3 968 with 4MB and by the way the card > >is faster than the Matrox Millenium when is operated at depths of 24 or 16 > >which is what are normally use over here. > > > >Not sure however I think that XFree86 does not fully support most of > >the accelerated features on the Matrox Millenium. > > That is true for the 3.2 release, but not for the 3.2A beta. The > Millennium is the fastest card supported by 3.2A by a large margin. > Just digging a few numbers out from www.goof.com's xbench archive shows > that a Millennium at 32bpp (packed 24bpp is buggy and/or interacts poorly > with some clients) comes in at between 366k-444k xstones on a Pentium > 133, while a #9 Motion 771 (S3 968) at 8bpp comes in at 273k xstones on > a Pentium 100. Unfortunately they don't have results for the two cards > running with the same speed CPU (or better still, on exactly the same > machine), but it does indicate that the Millennium at 32bpp beats the > 968 at 8bpp in the overall xstone result. For reference the 8bpp > Millennium results shown there for a Pentium 133 are between 733k and > 940k xstones. > > Note, I just took these results from the "3.2 Betas" summary page at > www.goof.com. Although they seem give a reasonable general indication > of the relative performance that is consistent with my experience with > both cards, they are only "benchmarks" and should be treated as such. > > David From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 02:38:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA05888 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA05883 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA04442; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:35:10 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:35:09 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: jack cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, jack wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > You decide between Window 95 and NT by understanding what the product can > > > do and what is expected to be available in the foreseeable future. If you > > > had to > > > reinstall the thing every 3 months there'd be a lot of people using > > > something else > > > > Umm, have you *ever* used Win95 or NT? > > Not if he's lucky. ;-) > > > We *regularly* (easily every 3 months) have to re-install every few > > months (sometimes less than 3). > > One of our most cluefull customers had to format and re-install to > convince 95 he had changed modems. Re-install without a format wouldn't > do it. I have lost count of the number of times that I reinstalled Win95 while I was working at M$. It really is a sad joke of an operating system and is worse than DOS for development. Most of the time a simple re-install is fine but there are times when you just have to shutdown to DOS, deltree windows and start again :-(. I never used NT since it was bigger and slower and our software was supposed to be released for Win95. I am sure it is the same, possibly with a longer mean-time-to-reinstall. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 02:40:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA06030 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obiwan.psinet.net.au (obiwan.psinet.net.au [203.19.28.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA06024 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by obiwan.psinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09210; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:28:42 +0800 (WST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:28:41 +0800 (WST) From: Adrian Chadd To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <5201.861411557@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > In other words, relax. It will all blow over, just like the other > 28,947 went-on-so-long-they-should-have-been-shot threads I've seen in > these mailing lists over the last 3 years. :-) > You've been counting Jordan? :) Adrian From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 02:42:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA06166 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hq.icb.chel.su (hq.icb.chel.su [193.125.10.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA06109; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 02:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (babkin@localhost) by hq.icb.chel.su (8.8.3/8.6.5) id PAA24915; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:39:24 +0600 (ESD) From: "Serge A. Babkin" Message-Id: <199704190939.PAA24915@hq.icb.chel.su> Subject: Re: CP866-rus for X ??? To: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (Alex Belits) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:39:23 +0600 (ESD) Cc: osa@techsz.msk.ru, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Alex Belits" at Apr 17, 97 01:35:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Thu, 17 Apr 1997, Ozz wrote: > > > Hello! > > Do you know anythink about the CP866-russian fonts for X-Win? > > I don't think, such thing is used anywhere. Generally it's considered > wrong to transfer any Cyrillic text to anything unixlike without > converting it to koi8. KOI-8 is a standard fro mail and news exchange. But there exist several standards of russian encoding itself. Personally I use KOI-8 for mail and news and CP866 for anything else (read: work). I have converted some CP866 fonts from DOS, and some from Cronyx KOI-8 fonts. The bad news is that Type1 fonts do not allow to use CP866. It would be not bad to write a builtin encoding converter for X Server. :-) -SB From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 03:02:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA06986 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (mail.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA06976 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0wIWy2-000IMjC; Sat, 19 Apr 97 12:02 MET DST Received: by ernie.kts.org via sendmail with stdio id for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:15:58 +0200 (MET DST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #2 built 1997-Feb-8) Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:15:57 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199704190106.SAA02521@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Apr 18, 97 06:06:45 pm Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > I will give a list a day or two to settle down if doesn't then I am > out of here at least for a little while. Is not the volume which bothers me > rather the apparent sabotage on the list which really gets to me and I think > that I have been more than patient . It is also the volume which bothers _me_, i have to pay every single byte of this, and i know i'm not the only one. People participating at the current and future holy-wars-discussions on -hackers should keep that in mind. Perhaps discussions like this are useful for something, but they should be continued on a different list than -hackers, really ! Kicking people off this list is no good idea, but maybe the postmaster at freebsd.org has a brilliant idea to do a subject-based header rewriting and force such discussions to another list installed just for such situations: those-discussions-ending-in-insulting-flame-wars-4-times-a-year@freebsd.org grummel, hellmuth -- hellmuth michaelis hm@kts.org hamburg, europe From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 03:23:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA07917 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from argus (pm3-p36.tfs.net [206.154.183.228]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA07906 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by argus (8.6.12/8.6.12) id FAA22450; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:23:45 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199704191023.FAA22450@argus> Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) To: jgrosch@sirius.com Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:23:44 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: jbryant@tfs.net In-Reply-To: <199704190438.VAA15124@superior.mooseriver.com> from "Josef Grosch" at Apr 18, 97 09:38:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > Add to this the time (read billable hours) you and your co-works spent try > to get BSDi to add an IP alias and the time you spent on the phone with > BSDi support. what support? last time i talked to them (back when they only charged $2500) it took them three days to get back to me with someone who didn't know what he was doing... jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 03:41:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA08747 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-7.mail.demon.net (relay-7.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA08738 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 03:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk ([158.152.17.1]) by relay-5.mail.demon.net id aa0524119; 19 Apr 97 11:30 BST Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (localhost.lan.awfulhak.org [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07747; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:58:26 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199704190958.KAA07747@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Terry-bashing, by way of explanation... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:59:46 PDT." <5004.861263986@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 10:58:25 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [.....] > or anyone else to judge our methods, despite whatever they may think > to the contrary, and anyone who's deeply dissatisfied with our > operating model is certainly encouraged to go find an operating system > which more closely conforms to their ideals. The same is no more or > less true for any other piece of software you might want to run. I would think that's why most of us are here - we agree with most of the philosophies of the core team. I think that some people end up in an environment where they are the technical "guru", and are subsequently more correct than their colleagues almost 100% of the time. Sometimes it takes a *lot* of persuading to get your colleagues to understand the correct approach and "see the light". Coming from that sort of situation to somewhere like this, it's sometimes difficult to realize when to bite your tongue and agree to disagree, or even when to believe that "the oppo may be right". > This is not to say that we're immune to all criticism or do not > welcome constructive comments about how we might do things more > efficiently/better/faster/whatever, simply that there may come a point [.....] Exactly ! > Jordan -- Brian , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 04:04:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09466 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from isbalham.ist.co.uk (isbalham.ist.co.uk [192.31.26.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09460 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gid.co.uk (uucp@localhost) by isbalham.ist.co.uk (8.8.4/8.8.4) with UUCP id LAA08292; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:59:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from [194.32.164.2] by seagoon.gid.co.uk; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:04:35 +0100 X-Sender: rb@194.32.164.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418174048.00af4084@etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:02:06 +0100 To: dennis From: Bob Bishop Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), jkh@time.cdrom.com, Terry Lambert , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 22:40 +0100 18/4/97, dennis wrote: >[...] >You decide between Window 95 and NT by understanding what the product can >do and what is expected to be available in the foreseeable future. If you >had to reinstall the thing every 3 months there'd be a lot of people > using something else So why aren't there a lot of people using something else? :-) :-) -- Bob Bishop (0118) 977 4017 international code +44 118 rb@gid.co.uk fax (0118) 989 4254 between 0800 and 1800 UK From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 04:08:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA09619 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA09605 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.2) id VAA10961; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:07:32 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19970419210732.17280@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:07:32 +1000 From: David Dawes To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Card Q References: <19970419181615.45445@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> <199704190924.CAA01411@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199704190924.CAA01411@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 02:24:44AM -0700 Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Apr 19, 1997 at 02:24:44AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >Do you know if the Matrox Mystique is supported with reasonable performance? We don't have Mystique support yet, but it is being worked on. At this stage I'd say it is unlikely that it will be in the up-coming release I referred to, but that depends a lot on how things go over the next few weeks (if it is included, it will be very "beta"). David From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 04:20:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA10204 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA10197 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 04:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA21112; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:07:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704191107.HAA21112@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704181915.MAA06203@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Apr 18, 97 12:15:58 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I get : > time dd if=/dev/zero of=/spare/test bs=3456000 count=30 > 30+0 records in > 30+0 records out > 103680000 bytes transferred in 36.080174 secs (2873600 bytes/sec) > 0.000u 5.297s 0:37.18 14.2% 78+9000k 8+1641io 6pf+0w > The partition is on a > sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > and the adapter is a 2940w. Well, that eliminates the simplest approach of through the file system on your system. I'd still do that first as a base line since it will make it easy to debug the driver. I read Mike Smith's suggestions. I have another which I'd look at before doing file I/O inside the kernel - that is only covering up the context switch time, and I find it hard to accept that that is going to make or break the application. How about: 1. Driver mmap of buffers into the process address space; 2. An rtprio user process; 3. A synchronization token that can be read back saying which buffer was loaded; 4. Raw I/O to a partition and your own clip storage management. This will eliminate the copies and if it can be done at all I bet it can be done this way. You may want to time your double buffered raw I/O throughput and see if you're going to be able to do this with your hardware. After this is working you could start considering raw I/O to a file system partition using pre-allocated files if needed - I'd still do this part first. I've been adding the POSIX 4 interface, and John Dyson is working on async I/O. The async I/O will make the data logger a bit more straight forward - you'll have a few transfers out there and handle the pending / completion handling in a standard way. -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 05:13:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14314 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14309 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.4/8.6.9) id HAA08758; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:12:56 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199704191212.HAA08758@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: special memory device In-Reply-To: <19970419102301.FO34910@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Apr 19, 97 10:23:01 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:12:56 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, krygier@kph.uni-mainz.de, toor@dyson.iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Klaus Werner Krygier wrote: > > > This means that the notification about the page fault > > seems to be done by calling the driver's mmap routine. Here I can > > reprogram the interface card. The validation of the now visible window > > is done automatically. The only problem that remains is, how to invalidate > > the pages for the old window so that a page fault will be generated > > again if this window is accessed later. > > Ask John. :) I think you gotta call some *unmap() function, but i'm > not confident with the API, and John never got around to actually > write something like a man page for the VM system (hint, hint :). > I have the question in my queue. Hope to answer it by the end of the weekend. I think that I'll have to craft a subroutine, but it won't be very complicated. I understand about the lack of documentation, the code has stabilized significantly. There'll be some nice stuff coming along again, but I think that the days of vast changes are over. That makes me much less resistant to documentation. The only problem now is time limitations :-(. More good news about the VM code is that we appear to have more competent VM people now. It is suprising to see the really correct fixes coming through!!! :-). John From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 05:20:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA14512 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [207.198.1.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA14507 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA21224; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:07:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199704191207.IAA21224@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: video capture driver interface to file system? In-Reply-To: <199704191107.HAA21112@hda.hda.com> from Peter Dufault at "Apr 19, 97 07:07:40 am" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, hackers@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:07:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > After this is working you could start considering raw I/O to a file > system partition using pre-allocated files if needed - I'd still > do this part first. Obviously I meant last. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime Machine Control and Simulation HD Associates, Inc. Voice: 508 433 6936 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 07:59:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA20616 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20605 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA28746; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:59:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:59:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199704191459.IAA28746@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Tim Oneil" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418161816.009e3e40@visigenic.com> References: <3.0.32.19970418161816.009e3e40@visigenic.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.27 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Umm, have you *ever* used Win95 or NT? We *regularly* (easily every 3 > >months) have to re-install every few months (sometimes less than 3). At > >my wife's work, they re-install everything on a regular basis as well, > >and almost every company I know that uses any M$ OS recommends > >re-installing the OS at *least* once/year due to application upgrades. > > Ummm, yes. I can't say we never re-install, but certainly not with that > frequency. Why in the world do you feel it necessary to re-install > every 3 months? Because user-land software gets updated, or we find critical bugs in the system (ie; security patches). 'Updating' from IE3.0 to IE4.0 leaves all sorts of crap lying around in the system, and if you want to try out NetScape and IE on the same box, there's no way to get rid of all of the 'crap' left lying around easily. Let's say you have Office95, and you want Office 97. You'll end up with alot more disk to re-install Office97 *from scratch* than to upgrade your existing system, and you don't have the possibility of wiping out newer DLL that fix security problems. Basically, if you use M$ software, everything is in bed with the OS, so 'removing programs' doesn't remove everything. On my laptop I recently re-installed everything from scratch after wiping out the disk. Before I started, I had 40MB free. After I re-installed from scratch I had 170MB free, with the exact same software on it after I re-installed. After double-spacing it that was 300MB of free space, which on a 810MB laptop disk (which also has FreeBSD on it), is a *BIG* deal. > I'm sorry, but that's absurd. Microsoft doesn't even release > patches for their crap every 3 months. They most certainly do. They are called 'upgrades', and just because one particular piece of software isn't upgraded every 3 months, if you combine the OS, Office, Explorer, and development upgrades you can *easily* install software more often than every 3 months. > speak) to NT 4.0 when it came out. I would really like to know > what symptoms I should look for coming from my workstation that > let me know when its time for a re-install. Do you mind? Lack of disk space, and no clue where it's at. Software refusing to work because of out-dated DLL's after you've 'upgraded' a piece of software. Software that refuses to work because it required an old DLL, and a new piece of software installed a newer version. Weird un-explained crashes. Possible security problems with the OS/applications. I could keep going if you'd like. At my wife's work, they have to re-install because the OS locks up enough that they must hard-reboot the system. After awhile they corrupt the hard-disk, and that requires a re-install (especially so under Win95 which does caching by default.) Nate From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 08:29:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22108 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nic.follonett.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22097 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by nic.follonett.no (8.8.5/8.8.3) id RAA26899; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:26:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Eivind Eklund Message-Id: <199704191526.RAA26899@nic.follonett.no> Subject: Re: CVS vendor branches To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:26:14 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199704182251.PAA03213@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Apr 18, 97 03:51:31 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > a way of hacking some of the wanted > > features is by treatingthe FreeBSD main development as a vendor > > branch, and using cvs import to maintain the parts you don't change. > > This works, but then I have my history at the cost of losing that > of FreeBSD. It also leaves the issue of integrating my history > blowing in the wind... when/if an integration takes place, the > only thing imported will be my tip, right? So if I do something to > accommodat a VM bug (say), and it's later fixed, and I want to > branch back there for maintenance, now you must resolve conflicting > tips, right? Not nescessarily. I have some ideas for how to create a fake branch at your machine, and then importing the branch into the FreeBSD CVS repository _as a branch_ at a later date. (1) You work on a CVS-tree with FreeBSD-current imported as a base. Any conflicting changes to the tree done by the main FreeBSD development line, you merge. (This is less work than it sound like). When you're done, you end up with one large patch which will bring -CURRENT to be equal to your source (or the relevant parts of it). You submit this as a script, a script which also recreate your changes as a branch of the FreeBSD CVS tree. This way, your editing history will be recorded in a branch, and the tip of that branch will be integrated as YAMFT with a reference to your branch for editing history. At this point, you abandon your changes to the imported source, as your changes have been brought into the main tree. (The abandoning can be done by re-creating the underlying CVS/RCS files of just those files, if nescessary re-creating any later patches. This can be automated.) If you are doing further development, you create another branch. Diskspace requirements: This model would require a FreeBSD CVS tree kept up to date, a copy of the FreeBSD source tree used as an import base, a local CVS tree with the imported sources, and a checked out copy of the FreeBSD sources with your changes from the local CVS tree. (2) This could probably also be done by creating a copy of the FreeBSD CVS tree with a "Terry" branch in it. You would need to create a local copy of the FreeBSD CVS tree, branch it, and make scripts to keep the head up to date with regards to a clean copy. It is possible that all of this could be done from the CTM delta files. Integration of your changes and edit-history would have to be done in the same way as suggestion (1). Benefits of (1) is that it is least work to implement; benefits of (2) is that it is probably most comfortable to work with. Does the above suggestions sound like it could create a tolerable working-environment? As for the 'ideal environment' section: I'm having a difficult time envisioning how your 'unbranching' would work; any changes will need to be merged by a human at some point, and I can't see how unbranching would work differently from the present branches, except that they presumably have a machine-readable tag pointing back from the merge-point, and are frozen at merge. This sound technically sound, but not really nescessary. Am I missing something? Having CVSup/CTM automatically create and rename branches sound nice; I wonder how much work it would be to implement. However, just having them respect branches would probably be enough; the problem is how to do this and still keep CVSup as rock-solid as it is towards partial or damaged CVS-trees. regards, Eivind. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 08:40:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA22843 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22829 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA01285; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:43:49 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199704191543.RAA01285@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: Status and future of sound drivers ? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:43:48 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20476.858316906@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 13, 97 09:21:46 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jordan K. Hubbard: > > Why dont you take a look at the net/open-bsd sound code, that would > > get us rid of funny copyrights too, and maybe make a common bsd > > soundAPI possible ?? (that would also free us from the old spaghetti > > code)... > > Well, let's not forget the [far, far greater] importance of having a > Linux compatible audio API. Their API may have its warts, but as far > as audio applications written to the Linux sound driver spec, they > have us beat by a factor of 10 or so. Aside for some scattered mbone > tools, there aren't any applications _written_ to use this common > BSD soundAPI if we had one. Frankly, I'd rather have the apps. :) [Sorry about this over a month old thread getting a reply now, but I am just] [now recovering from a time with almost no time to read the lists. ] Wouldn't it be better to eesign the Ultimate Sound API (or use the NetBSD one, if it's good enough) and see to that it can handle anything the Linux API can handle. Then simply build a Linux compat API on top of that? Then try and make that API the standard at least amongst the BSDs? /Mikael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 09:06:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA24200 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24193 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA03801; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:04:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Mikael Karpberg cc: sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status and future of sound drivers ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:43:48 +0200." <199704191543.RAA01285@ocean.campus.luth.se> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:04:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3799.861465849@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Wouldn't it be better to eesign the Ultimate Sound API (or use the NetBSD one I think the Open Sound Source people still have the best shot at creating a unified sound standard, and having already signed up the likes of SCO and Linux makes them pretty compelling. I've also talked with Dev of 4 Front Technologies, and he says that anyone is free to grab and incorporate the OSS header files verbatim if they're looking for an API target for some free version of the sound drivers. Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 09:49:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA25656 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:49:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25651 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01077 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704191649.JAA01077@austin.polstra.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: CVSup Bug Report! Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 09:49:13 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Finally, somebody has sent a bug report to cvsup-bugs@polstra.com: > Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:30:00 -0400 > From: [deleted] > To: cvsup-bugs@polstra.com > Subject: willow tree > > I am in Michigan, about 60 mi. north of Detroit. I have a large weeping > willow tree which is infested with little beetles every year. > It looks like the whole inside area of it is almost dead already. > These little black bugs are eating every leaf, every summer it seems. > I'm wondering what to do to save this beautiful tree. > Anything you can suggest would be much appreaciated. > Thank you, > [deleted] I am not making this up. John "It's not a bug, it's a dead tree" Polstra -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 11:08:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28863 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrimp.dataplex.net (shrimp.dataplex.net [208.2.87.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28840 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.2.87.4] (cod.dataplex.net [208.2.87.4]) by shrimp.dataplex.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12202; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:07:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: rkw@shrimp.dataplex.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199704191649.JAA01077@austin.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:54:12 -0500 To: John Polstra From: Richard Wackerbarth Subject: Re: CVSup Bug Report! Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:49 AM -0500 4/19/97, John Polstra wrote: >Finally, somebody has sent a bug report to cvsup-bugs@polstra.com: Is that the CV-Sap bug report :-) > >> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:30:00 -0400 >> From: [deleted] >> To: cvsup-bugs@polstra.com >> Subject: willow tree >> >> I am in Michigan, about 60 mi. north of Detroit. I have a large weeping >> willow tree which is infested Ah, the Willow Project ..... From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 11:09:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28986 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28980 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem01.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.31]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19973; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:05:37 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33592442.3D35@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:00:02 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikael Karpberg CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status and future of sound drivers ? References: <199704191543.RAA01285@ocean.campus.luth.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mikael Karpberg wrote: > [Sorry about this over a month old thread getting a reply now, but I am just] > [now recovering from a time with almost no time to read the lists. ] > I never saw this thread, but since we are using the old Voxware stuff I asked Hannu about a version of the OSS/Free for FreeBSD. He said something might come out in December but no promises :(. Pedro. > > /Mikael From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 11:14:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA29333 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA29326 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01548; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704191814.LAA01548@austin.polstra.com> To: Richard Wackerbarth cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CVSup Bug Report! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:54:12 CDT." References: Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:14:48 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is that the CV-Sap bug report :-) > [...] > Ah, the Willow Project ..... :-) Probably when the tree dies and the guy is ready to chop it down, we'll hear from him here in hackers@freebsd.org. ;-) John P. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 11:39:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA00973 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00967 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA03268; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:46:00 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:46:00 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: Charles Owens cc: hackers@freefall.freebsd.org, Chris Coleman Subject: Re: mcAffee Anti Virus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Stephen Roome wrote: > > > On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Charles Owens wrote: > > > > > > > > > The list price is $200. I was utterly amazed at how fast it blew through > > > scanning 700 megs of PC files. > > > > > > anyhow... > > > > We run 15 Windows 95 machines off a Samba fileserver here which is a > > P5-133, with FreeBSD 2.1.5 (soon to be upgraded!). > > > > I put the Antivirus demo on it and had similar results, it was > > (obviously?) faster than windows at checking files and it's damn sight > > cheaper, as I'm sure it's possible to check remote hard drives with one > > copy of the server software through smbclient. > > Hmmm... I thought smbclient was only good for interactive, > command-line-ftp-like operations. How would you get uvscan to work over > the smbclient connection, such as it is? It depends, if it's not actually capable right now then I'm sure it can be modified, besides smbtar uses smbclient, and in the event of what your saying one could use smbtar and then check that for viruses. (nasty, but would work) > > > I don't know if McAfee ought to find out that you can check hundreds of > > PC's in this way for the price of 2 copies of the PC software, but I > > thought some of you out there who might not have done this yet, ought to > > try it out. (For more than 10PC's to check it's cheaper to buy a 486 with > > samba to just remotely check them once a day). > > > > It's not as secure, but it'll save your business money. > > The potential is certainly there. > > For no-cost PC virus scanning I use the shareware version of F-Prot (free > for non-profits, $1 per computer for commecial users). It's not as pretty > as the full-blown F-Prot, but it has the same very highly rated virus > scanning engine. I'll check this out. > > --- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Charles N. Owens Email: owensc@enc.edu > http://www.enc.edu/~owensc > Network & Systems Administrator > Information Technology Services "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's > Eastern Nazarene College best friend. Inside of a dog it's > too dark to read." - Groucho Marx > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 11:52:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01876 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01858 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA03446; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:59:35 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:59:34 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jbryant@tfs.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <19805.861384223@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I was on Totenham court road in London (England) yesterday and saw some > > Walnut Creek CD rom's for sale, can't remember which ones, but they were > > WCreek. However I saw no FreeBSD cd's there... > > > > The Bay Area is only a very small part of the world. No matter how > > important. > > I never meant to imply that we were the center of the universe, simply > that I'd seen the product in stores here. I can't speak for other > areas of the world simply because I don't live in those areas. QED. :-) > > I also talked with our sales manager yesterday about getting into more > retail stores and her comment was that we were definitely _trying_ to do > this on a more or less constant basis, but getting in bed with the Mafia > for a portion of their lucrative drug-and-sex trade is actually *easier* > than getting into some of these retail stores. They only buy from > certain distributors and those same distributors require some pretty > insane deals, including direct kick-backs and up-front subsidies > ("You give us $50,000 up-front and we'll agree to stock your product"). > > We're not quite big enough to support that kind of graft. :( I don't think you need to be, I think what you say about stores only buying from one supplier is very true for the large chain stores, like pc world or whatever. But it's the smaller shops which attract real computer enthusiasts (geeks), and they usually buy from whoever they can, at whatever cost. No-one who is new to the PC market is going to do anything but install Windows 95 on their computer (or maybe NT now). Perhaps aiming less at mainstream companies who supply for the office environment and aiming more at the smaller companies selling older second hand equipment to people who know what they are talking about would be a better approach. Well, it makes sense to me, of course this approach requires more work, but if it actually works then it'd be worth it. -- Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 12:08:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03128 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper5a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03120 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA13887; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:07:53 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mark Mayo , Stephen Roome , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, jbryant@tfs.net Subject: Re: On Holy Wars, and a Plea for Peace [sorry Danny, wherever you are, but the title fits]... In-Reply-To: <9044.861417705@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Transplanted from: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Needless to say, if you're somewhere that has a hard time getting > FreeBSD CDs through customs, *please* - consider making and selling > your own copies to your local market! Walnut Creek CDROM wants > FreeBSD to spread far and wide, no matter what it may take to bring > that about (well, OK, we draw the line at outright imperialism and > signing users up at gunpoint :-). Why draw the line? :) That's a good part of what put M$ where it is, at least metaphorically at gunpoint with the windows tax the hardware outfits had to deal with. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 12:15:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03744 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (slipper5a.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.59]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA03732 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA13930; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:14:57 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: jgrosch@sirius.com cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <199704190438.VAA15124@superior.mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Josef Grosch wrote: > Add to this the time (read billable hours) you and your co-works spent try > to get BSDi to add an IP alias and the time you spent on the phone with > BSDi support. Bzzzt. Bzzzt. Oxymoron detected: BSDi support. Actually what there was ran out over a year and a half ago. > >As long as the powers that be at FreeBSD.org keep producing one of the > >best operating systems available, at any price, why worry about a few > >closed discussions with the "private sector". Hell, if they want to get > >together at Stonehenge once a month and chant and howl at the full moon > >naked let 'em. > > Why don't I ever get invited to those kind of meetings ? I must be working > for the wrong company. The least they could do would be to put the quickcam drivers to good use. Live feed from www.FreeBSD.org/it/aint/pretty/but/if/you/gotta/look.html :-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 12:20:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04103 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA04094 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa11712; 19 Apr 97 15:20 EDT Received: from stretch.cs.Virginia.edu (atf3r@stretch-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.14]) by archive.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA02716; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by stretch.cs.Virginia.edu (4.1/SMI-2.0) id AA11045; Sat, 19 Apr 97 15:20:41 EDT Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:20:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: adrian@virginia.edu To: Matt Thomas Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List , Klaus Werner Krygier Subject: Re: DEC 21140-Ax problems resolved? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970418193546.008f8d24@www.3am-software.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Matt Thomas wrote: > look at http://www.3am-software.com/ifmedia.html > -- > Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com > 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt.html > Westford, MA Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message Thanks! This did the trick. I could not bring over the NetBSD ifconfig, but the kernel doesn't switch the device to 100MB by default any more. thanks again, Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| Support your local programmer, System Administrator --->>>| STOP Software Patent Abuses NOW! NVL, NIIMS and Telemedicine Labs -->>| For an application and information Member: League for Programming Freedom ->| see: http://www.lpf.org/ From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 12:34:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04720 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA04711 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA03988; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:38:02 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:38:02 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: dennis cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970418173355.00a219a4@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > <<<< Snipped loads of stuff out of here >>> > SDL has been working on frame relay for 2 1/2 years now.....you really want > to > use the result? Mmm, SDL do sell very similar cards, when I was looking for a serial card for our E1 line here, I tried out both etinc and sdl... Frankly the folks answering the phone at etinc made me call sdl again, even though someone had said etinc made better kit. So, I have a SDL WANic here, it's much the same as the etinc version and yes I'd be prepared now to use the SDL frame relay card when it comes out above the etinc one. This is because SDL seem to understand that the customer is always right, and etinc (and you) seem much more prepared to argue with the customer. So, yes, I'll use the result, and I know that even if it doesn't work SDL will be helpful when I ring up and ask why it broke. -- Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 13:07:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06552 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06512 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA14954; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970419160450.00b59990@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:04:54 -0400 To: Stephen Roome From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 08:38 PM 4/19/97 +0100, Stephen Roome wrote: >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: >> <<<< Snipped loads of stuff out of here >>> >> SDL has been working on frame relay for 2 1/2 years now.....you really want >> to >> use the result? > >Mmm, SDL do sell very similar cards, when I was looking for a serial card >for our E1 line here, I tried out both etinc and sdl... >Frankly the folks answering the phone at etinc made me call sdl again, >even though someone had said etinc made better kit. > >So, I have a SDL WANic here, it's much the same as the etinc version and >yes I'd be prepared now to use the SDL frame relay card when it comes out >above the etinc one. > >This is because SDL seem to understand that the customer is always right, >and etinc (and you) seem much more prepared to argue with the customer. > >So, yes, I'll use the result, and I know that even if it doesn't work SDL >will be helpful when I ring up and ask why it broke. Ah, but the customer isnt always right...... db From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 13:15:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06987 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06973 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntws (ntws.etinc.com [204.141.95.142]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA15007; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970419161254.00b5dbd0@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:12:57 -0400 To: Stephen Roome From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 08:38 PM 4/19/97 +0100, Stephen Roome wrote: >On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: >> <<<< Snipped loads of stuff out of here >>> >> SDL has been working on frame relay for 2 1/2 years now.....you really want >> to >> use the result? yes I'd be prepared now to use the SDL frame relay card when it comes out above the etinc one. Christ, NT didnt take 21/2 years to write...perhaps they just dont know what they're doing? > >Mmm, SDL do sell very similar cards, when I was looking for a serial card >for our E1 line here, I tried out both etinc and sdl... >Frankly the folks answering the phone at etinc made me call sdl again, >even though someone had said etinc made better kit. Ok, so ET has a better product, but the other guys are nicer? I'll take that every time..... I will never understand the philosophy of buying inferior products because the salesman are nicer. The woman who sold me my Lexus was a real b*tch, but I love my car.......I even say hello to her when I bring it in! :-) Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 13:34:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08366 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08334 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA05266; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:26:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Pedro Giffuni cc: Mikael Karpberg , sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status and future of sound drivers ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:00:02 PDT." <33592442.3D35@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:26:34 -0700 Message-ID: <5264.861481594@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I never saw this thread, but since we are using the old Voxware stuff I > asked Hannu about a version of the OSS/Free for FreeBSD. > He said something might come out in December but no promises :(. Yes, this much has been clear for awhile, but I thought we were talking about working with our current sound driver but looking for a suitable API target? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 14:14:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11660 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.94.78]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11647 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA22312; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:11:03 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 18:11:02 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: dennis cc: Stephen Roome , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419161254.00b5dbd0@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > I will never understand the philosophy of buying inferior products because > the salesman are nicer. The woman who sold me my Lexus was a real b*tch, > but I love my car.......I even say hello to her when I bring it in! like temperments attract? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 14:22:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12880 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.75]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12751 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by apolo.biblos.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20343; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:23:40 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <335952AB.7303@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:18:03 -0700 From: Pedro Giffuni X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status and future of sound drivers ? References: <5264.861481594@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Yes, this much has been clear for awhile, but I thought we were > talking about working with our current sound driver but looking > for a suitable API target? > [as I said I wasn't aware of this thread..] It's bad manners to answer one question with another, but.. Can't we base on Linux's OSS/Free and use similar APIs? This thing of expecting different releases for OSS/Free Linux and OSS/Free FreeBSD keeps us in shadows for long periods of time. Pedro. > Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 14:39:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14939 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14931 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03962; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199704192135.OAA03962@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Pedro Giffuni , Mikael Karpberg , sos@ravenock.cybercity.dk, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status and future of sound drivers ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:26:34 PDT." <5264.861481594@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:35:34 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If you guys want to contribute then lets take up in the multimedia mailing list. Usually, most multimedia related questions get ignored from this list. Part of it is because of the huge volume in this list and the other is that the involved or pertinent individuals are usually busy hacking. Regards, Amancio From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 14:43:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15364 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15356 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA12711; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:42:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Pedro Giffuni cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status and future of sound drivers ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:18:03 PDT." <335952AB.7303@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:42:38 -0700 Message-ID: <12709.861486158@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Yes, this much has been clear for awhile, but I thought we were > > talking about working with our current sound driver but looking > > for a suitable API target? > > > [as I said I wasn't aware of this thread..] > It's bad manners to answer one question with another, but.. > Can't we base on Linux's OSS/Free and use similar APIs? This thing of I thought that's what I was suggesting. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 14:46:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15849 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw-fr1.etinc.com [204.141.244.98]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15828 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-usr11.etinc.com (dialup-usr11.etinc.com [204.141.95.132]) by etinc.com (8.8.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA15590; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970419174231.00b0aec4@etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@etinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:42:35 -0400 To: The Hermit Hacker From: dennis Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: Stephen Roome , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 06:11 PM 4/19/97 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > >> I will never understand the philosophy of buying inferior products because >> the salesman are nicer. The woman who sold me my Lexus was a real b*tch, >> but I love my car.......I even say hello to her when I bring it in! > > like temperments attract? first of all, you have no clue what your talking about...my temperment is fine. Forget about e-mail 'cause its more for venting than anything...but I think that you'll find my technically competent customers find me to be rather pleasant, and knowlegable and helpful. Nate's talked to me and I dont think he'll tell you that Im a fire breathing ogre as some of those who have never talked to me seem to pretend to know. If I grow impatient with some guy who finds that he's way over his head in configuring an internet router and expects me to spend the afternoon on the phone with him while he debugs his configuration, its because I'm too damn busy to deal with such horse non-sense. Or the guys that tell me they won't buy a product without source..well why should I waste my time talking to such a person, when we don't provide source? Does he think he's going to talk me into giving him source to sell a card? And the guy in the UK who thinks Im nasty because we dont take VISA, well Im sorry, but real companies have American Express and I dont like dealing with some bank in Moosebreath Montana when some banana returns a card after using it for 4 months because he finally got financing for that Cisco that he really wanted. Thats just the way it is...but those of you with your "opinions" who are not customers should TRY to be nice...because some day when your business grows you may need something that we got ... :-) Dennis From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 14:48:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16210 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caliban.dihelix.com (caliban.dihelix.com [198.180.136.138]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16194 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from langfod@localhost) by caliban.dihelix.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) id LAA08762 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:48:15 -1000 (HST) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:48:15 -1000 (HST) From: David Langford Message-Id: <199704192148.LAA08762@caliban.dihelix.com> To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: suggestion on cvs-digests.... Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Not sure where to send this.. Would it be possible to have cvs-digests that relate only to specific trees? (i.e. a digiest of all changes to RELENG2_2 or ports etc..) It would help it trying to keep track of changes to what I might be looking for without having the information intersperesed throughout a large digest. Personnaly I wouldnt might seeing multiple digests (could not handle all everything being individual though.) Thanks, -David Langfod langfod@dihelix.com From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 15:21:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18939 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (hal-ns3-34.netcom.ca [207.181.94.162]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18931 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA00399; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:18:05 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:18:05 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: dennis cc: Stephen Roome , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419174231.00b0aec4@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > At 06:11 PM 4/19/97 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > > > >> I will never understand the philosophy of buying inferior products because > >> the salesman are nicer. The woman who sold me my Lexus was a real b*tch, > >> but I love my car.......I even say hello to her when I bring it in! > > > > like temperments attract? > > first of all, you have no clue what your talking about...my temperment is > fine. Forget about > e-mail 'cause its more for venting than anything...but I think that you'll > find my technically > competent customers find me to be rather pleasant, and knowlegable and > helpful. Nate's > talked to me and I dont think he'll tell you that Im a fire breathing ogre > as some of those > who have never talked to me seem to pretend to know. Guess I should have added a smiley up there, eh? *rofl* From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 16:36:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23130 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from X2296 (ppp1581.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.45]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23118 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by X2296 (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00202; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 19:34:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: dennis cc: The Hermit Hacker , Stephen Roome , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419174231.00b0aec4@etinc.com> Message-ID: X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2 X-Mailer: Pine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Ok, since we're temporarily allowed to spam -hackers, I've been waiting for a chance to say something for *so* long!] [NOTE that this really isn't meant to contribute to any ill-feelings various people may currently have regarding eachother, ok?] On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > first of all, you have no clue what your talking > about...my temperment is fine. Forget about e-mail 'cause > its more for venting than anything...but I think that > you'll find my technically [snip] Damnit! You are such an asshole, how dare you suggest such a stupid thing! I am not in any way irritable or emotional, and I think if you were to act just a tiny bit more like a species that could conceviably have evolved from an intelligent species such as apes, you would read my damn messages, nincumpoop! Do I have to yell to get into your fat head!? I AM NOT TEMPERMENTAL! ;-) (Ok, don't mind me...I'm a little hyper since someone finally said they missed me, which is a small step in the direction I've been trying to push them recently... ;-) PS. Check out the new FreeBSD slogan in my sig! ;-) -- tIM...HOEk FreeBSD: "Free" refers to the price, not the philosophy! From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 17:43:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25537 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rhiannon.clari.net.au (dns1.clari.net.au [203.27.85.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25531 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.clari.net.au (8.8.5/8.6.10) id KAA24591; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:43:24 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 10:43:24 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Hawkins Message-Id: <199704200043.KAA24591@rhiannon.clari.net.au> To: hackers@freebsd.org, langfod@dihelix.com Subject: Re: suggestion on cvs-digests.... Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David, >Would it be possible to have cvs-digests that relate only to >specific trees? (i.e. a digiest of all changes to RELENG2_2 or ports etc..) ^^^^^^ An excellent suggestion. Keeping these posts about willow infestations separate from the rest would be of assistance to us all. My suggestion is that we create a system of lists divided along the lines: cvsbugs-genus-class-species. I have bugs in my floorboards, might I request a separate system cvsbugs-{various building materials} Peter From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 20:27:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00703 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00691 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09571; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:33:46 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:33:46 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: dennis cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419161254.00b5dbd0@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > Ok, so ET has a better product, but the other guys are nicer? > > I'll take that every time..... > > I will never understand the philosophy of buying inferior products because > the salesman are nicer. The woman who sold me my Lexus was a real b*tch, > but I love my car.......I even say hello to her when I bring it in! The product may be inferior, Windows supports my soundcard better than FreeBSD, and if I want to play off-the-shelf games I have to use Windows, if I want to do some graphic design I'd use windows, because I can't get Photoshop for FreeBSD. To the same end, I'd rather have and SDL card, knowing that it will work well enough but maybe not as well as the equivalent etinc card (with the same hitachi chipset and 32k of memory ? Even if the etinc card is better I'll buy SDL, because I know they are helpful and polite. If both do the job, why not chose on who is the nicer bloke, especially considering either could go wrong and I'd prefer to talk to helpful support staff. -- Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 20:28:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00751 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00746 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09585; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:34:36 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:34:35 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: dennis cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419160450.00b59990@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > Ah, but the customer isnt always right...... This attitude is why I bought SDL, not etinc. -- Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 20:30:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00886 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00880 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 20:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09620; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:37:28 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 04:37:27 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: dennis cc: The Hermit Hacker , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Nate Williams , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970419174231.00b0aec4@etinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: > Thats just the way it is...but those of you with your "opinions" who are > not customers > should TRY to be nice...because some day when your business grows you may > need something that we got ... And you won't sell it to us ? But the woman who sold you your car was a bitch ? You'd give money to someone you don't like, but you won't take money from someone who's annoyed you ? Most odd. Steve Roome Technical Systems Manager, Vision Interactive Ltd. E: steve@visint.co.uk M: +44 (0) 976 241 342 T: +44 (0) 117 973 0597 F: +44 (0) 117 923 8522 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 21:27:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA03249 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from borg.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03242 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 21:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (user-37kb9ah.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.165.81]) by borg.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA21514; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970420042655.008d4610@mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 00:26:55 -0400 To: Stephen Roome From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: Price of FreeBSD (was On Holy Wars...) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-hackers@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 04:34 AM 4/20/97 +0100, Stephen Roome wrote: >On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, dennis wrote: >> Ah, but the customer isnt always right...... > >This attitude is why I bought SDL, not etinc. I think it was L.L. Bean who said in a catalog: "You will never win an argument with a customer." This was explained to me as being more correct than "The customer is always right", because obviously they aren't allways right (but you still want them as a customer). -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci. - House of Retrocomputing XCOMM mailto:kpneal@pobox.com - http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ XCOMM kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates: XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!" From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 22:13:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA04776 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agni.nuko.com ([207.82.229.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04754; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:13:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from vinay@localhost) by agni.nuko.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA16052; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:12:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Vinay Bannai Message-Id: <199704200512.WAA16052@agni.nuko.com> Subject: Need a common passwd file among machines To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks, I need a common passwd file that is shared by a FreeBSD machine, Linux machine, Solaris and a SunOS machine. I do not want to use NIS. I thought of using rdist to distribute the passwd file among all these machines but could not because some of them use shadow passwd files and others don't. Also, I am not sure the passwd encryption is the same on all these platforms. More generally, the reason I am using this approach is to make the developement of code easier by using cvs. I have one machine exporting the cvs source tree and others mount it. To keep the same uids, I need to share the passwd files. Does anyone have a better suggestions? Thanks Vinay From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 22:42:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05949 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA05944 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 22:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wIpNr-0007gZ-00; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:41:55 -0600 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: disklabel -- owner? Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:41:54 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there an owner for disklabel? I ask this because I have, over the years, grown to really really really loath having to deal with this program. With all of its oddities, and you gotta set this right or that right, or or or or or. So, I'd like to fix at least some of them. Is there someone that I should coordinate with? Heck, I'd be happy to try to rewrite the whole fdisk/disklabel junk into a nice, easy to use script. sysinstall is OK, but it isn't as nice as I'd like. Is there a need for this, or are people generally happy with the tools we have? Yours in frustration, Warner P.S. I wasted several hours wondering why my new machine wouldn't boot off of its new disk. Turns out thats because the "TYPE" field in the label wasn't SCSI, so it installed IDE boot blocks and paniced when it tried to mount root. disklabel should know better. And don't even get me started on fdisk... From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 23:04:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06709 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06690; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA02308; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:05:19 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:05:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Belits To: Vinay Bannai cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need a common passwd file among machines In-Reply-To: <199704200512.WAA16052@agni.nuko.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Apr 1997, Vinay Bannai wrote: > Hi folks, > > I need a common passwd file that is shared by a FreeBSD machine, Linux > machine, Solaris and a SunOS machine. I do not want to use NIS. > I thought of using rdist to distribute the passwd file among all these > machines but could not because some of them use shadow passwd files and > others don't. It will be better to use ftp or even scp and make scripts generate files in formats, all systems use from "master" password file that is kept on sysadmin's box, then automatically ftp/scp it to other ones. Shadow/nonshadow syncronization can be done in simple cron jobs. > Also, I am not sure the passwd encryption is the same on all > these platforms. DES-based encryption is supported on all of those systems (FreeBSD by default doesn't use it though). You can also modify Linux, SunOS and Solaris libraries to use the same encryption as FreeBSD. -- Alex P.S. Is there any existing thing or at least an idea of making one that does this thing nicer? NIS is based on rather dumb idea that to authenticate local user one will want to go to some server and ask him instead of IMHO more sane approach of distributing authentication information from that server to always perform authentication locally and never depend on some host being accessible at the time of user's login. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 19 23:15:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA07165 for hackers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [206.28.134.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07156 for ; Sat, 19 Apr 1997 23:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial2-4.cybercom.net [206.28.134.68]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA06631 for ; Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970420061502.006fa5b0@cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 02:15:02 -0400 To: hackers@freebsd.org From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: disklabel -- owner? Sender: owner-hackers@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 11:41 PM 4/19/97 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >Heck, I'd be happy to try to rewrite the whole fdisk/disklabel junk >into a nice, easy to use script. sysinstall is OK, but it isn't as >nice as I'd like. Is there a need for this, or are people generally >happy with the tools we have? > Oh, please, please, rewrite it! You'd have my gratitude! :-) If FreeBSD's installation and, more importantly, configuration procedure (e.g., kernel re-compilation, XFree86 setup, PPP dialup, etc.) could be simplified, it would be well on its way to increasing its growth rate. K.S. PS -- In defense of Microsoft's 32-bit Windows installations, I think that if FreeBSD were supporting as much legacy hardware in a Plug-and-Play fasion as Windows, it would crash a few systems during auto-detection, too.